# T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

Hey guys, for some reason, I can't think clearly and I'm having trouble turning the thoery into an general idea of how it will perform on the car.
I currently have a brand new Turbonetics T3/T04B with an S-3 compressor and a Stage 1 turbine wheel in a .48 housing.
My goal is 250-280 hp and I can't for the life of me make up my mind about the turnine wheel. Stage 1 seems small, but the shop where I bought it insists it's fine. However, it seems everyone on this forum using a hybrid is either using a stage 2 or 3 ... 
What do you guys think?
* Edit : Oh, and the idea is, I can still exchange the turbo for something different since it's still brand new, and I'm friends with the shop, so should I change it or not?
Thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Agtronic at 1:25 AM 5-8-2003_


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

Uh, correction, I thought I was on the 1.8t forum. The B compressor isn't good for 1.8ts because we run pressures of more than 15psi even with the stock turbo. The B is good if you want to run around 15psi, however, there's more efficient turbos out there. I prefer the E compressors because of efficiency, and spoolup may be a bit better, but they don't flow as much at low psi (not VR6 material).
Regarding the choice of turbine trim, the compressor doesn't look like it needs a bigger turbine than a Stage I. I think higher stage turbines are needed when you want to run at very high boost levels. The A/R of the turbine controls the spoolup. This turbo should spool up like a an E 50 trim compressor or even a bit later. It takes 17lbs/min to spool up to 15psi. For comparison, a T3 S60 spools up to 15psi in 12.5 lbs/min. You could go with a .36 A/R to make it spool quicker and a stage II turbine if you plan to boost up above 20psi.
Somone confirm or attack my opinion on the turbine stage please, this is a fuzzy subject that needs discussion.
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 11:31 AM 5-8-2003_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_Somone confirm or attack my opinion on the turbine stage please, this is a fuzzy subject that needs discussion.


Heck IMHO even a stg1 .48 is too small for most cars, I wouldn't even think of putting a .36 of any kind on a gas car. A diesel maybe...
After riding in cars with similar setups (.48 stg 1, and .63 stg 1) I'd say I like how the .63 just keeps pulling up top. Boost rise is later, but heck that's traction for longer! Start with a staged .48 at least and if the boost rise is too soon (yes it happens) go to a staged .63 to match whatever trim turbine wheel you have.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*

Well, it'd be a good idea to talk about what engine this thing would be going into. For a 1.8t, a .48 barely gets you boost by 4krpm, a few hundred less rpm if you have ball bearing trim on a T3. On a VR6, yeah, the .63 is cool, but on an old 8v a .63 won't ever spool up with a big compressor.
The B compressor is low psi high flow, the E compressor is high psi high flow. The T3 is more like the E compressor. VR6's need low psi high flow, 1.8L engines need high psi high flow.
We can argue all day about A/R, but the real enigma is the turbine stage. Why go bigger if you lose spoolup?
Speedy G


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

how about a T3/T4E with 54trim, .63 exhaust a/r with a stage 3 turbine 2.0L 16v


_Modified by Schraml MotorSports at 4:51 PM 5-8-2003_


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Schraml MotorSports)*

Sounds like a great turbo for a VR6, but why? Why the stage 3 turbine?
Speedy G


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

I don't know...I'm askin?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

All good info here ... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
One thing I keep needing to remind myself is that I redline @ 6500, so I think the .63 may not be for me. I won't know for sure until I try the .48 though.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

why the stage3 turbine? because the turbine wheels is better of getting rid of backpressure than the exhaust housing and because if you make power at higher rpm's you'll have a car that's easier to drive and be more forgiven on your vw drivetrain, not to mention that less backpressure= a motor that is more volumetric efficient, that's why anyone who's making any power runs at least a stage2 turbine.


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

Very good iinfo going on...keep it up!!!!!!!!!


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_why the stage3 turbine? because the turbine wheels is better of getting rid of backpressure than the exhaust housing and because if you make power at higher rpm's you'll have a car that's easier to drive and be more forgiven on your vw drivetrain,

Here you're saying later spoolup is a good thing. I agree that full boost before maximum engine torque is not a good idea for the drivetrain, but there's ways of getting traction other than getting an oversized turbo. An Apexi AVC-R could keep the boost lower in lower rpms to get traction, and then you could increase the boost in upper rpms to try to maintain the torque. In fact, that's what the stock 1.8t is like, only the turbo is tiny. I'd much prefer having a turbo from 2200 rpm all the way to 6500 rpm than a turbo from 4krpm. 

_Quote »_ not to mention that less backpressure= a motor that is more volumetric efficient, that's why anyone who's making any power runs at least a stage2 turbine.

less backpressure = higher VE, ok. As far as I'm concerned, VE is not that important if you're running a boosted car. It does, however take more flow to get the turbine flowing. The turbine will also be more efficient at higher flows. So... the way I see it, the higher turbine stages are for bigger engines (flow more). 1.8t's are small engines and so are 2.0L. What I mean is that I don't see a reason for going to a higher stage turbine, other than the smaller stage running out of power at the higher rpms. I'm still not convinced that a .36A/R stage II is a bad thing.
Speedy G


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

Well why use a fancy boost controller to lower boost down low to get traction when you can just run a bigger turbine hsg/stage and get ALOT more pull up top with the same results down low? Seems like going the wrong way at the inherent problem. 
A 1.8T will spool a .63 for sure.. a 1.8 16v does nicely. Why would a 20v have trouble with it?
Remember players, cold side had almost nothing to do with boost rise/response/top end. It's all on the hot, and if you want to pull strong up top that .48 stg 1 isn't going to get you there on a motor that can run up past 6k.
Staging a turbine wheel is usually somewhere in between changing A/R's. We've been through that on the HC site a few times and the consensus was try and run the biggest staged exhaust wheel you can as it'll make boost lower and pull higher than the stage 1 at the next A/R.
Lag is your friend if you want horsepower, if you learn that you're ahead of the game.
I wouldn't even consider a T3 hot side on a VR6.. WAY too small unless it's a .82 or larger, heck even then it's a stretch. 
I'll be running a 60/.63 for a bit on the next project and I think it'll get me right where I want to be boost rise wise, no boost before 2500.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*

i got a to4b/t3 "s" series from turbonetics w/ the .48 stg 2. wish i went w/ the .63 It spools way to quick for my liking. the same turbo i got on a 8v spools quickly too.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (vw16vcabby)*

What RPMs is too quick? 15psi at 3krpm is nice. If that's too quick, then we disagree on that. The stock 1.8t is fun to drive, and so is the K04 upgrade, and all of these have full boost in the mid-3krpms. Redline boost suffers, but that shouldn't be a problem with a B compressor. What's your boost at redline? I bet it doesn't fall off even 1 psi.

_Quote »_Lag is your friend if you want horsepower, if you learn that you're ahead of the game.

Whatever... trying to get lag on purpose doesn't mean you'll get more HP though. HP is boost at redline (or near there). That doesn't tell you how well an engine behaves though. The point is that if I can have my 15psi at redline, but start having it at 2200rpm, that is a better engine. A "fancy" boost controller can get you get some grip as well, as can a chip. The point is that if all you can do with your engine is 15psi, you might as well have it for the largest rpm range. Strapping on a T3/T4E 50 trim with a stage V .63 A/R will get you your 15psi at redline, but you'll only get it for 2krpm. A T3 S60 will also get you there but should spool up fully 1000rpm earlier. We're talking about flowing around 220whp right?
BTW the 1.8t without the turbo flows around 12lbs/min. I don't know what an 8v or a 16v flow.
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 2:31 PM 5-8-2003_


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (vw16vcabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw16vcabby* »_i got a to4b/t3 "s" series from turbonetics w/ the .48 stg 2. wish i went w/ the .63 It spools way to quick for my liking. the same turbo i got on a 8v spools quickly too. 

Sailor's just a dirty punk rock kid with too many piercings who drives a girly car... don't listen to him.







. 
Depends on what you want to do with your car. He wants to hit 12s with the 16V cabby, so traction is at a premium with early boost.


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## euroroccoT (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (jwatts)*

should of call me Markku i had a few turbos here that would of suit you very well, good luck.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (euroroccoT)*

Remember guys,he is running a 2.0 8V.The 8V head tends to run out of steam at 6000rpm (unless big valves,porting,cam,etc.)so a big compressor that has max boost at 3500 only gives you 2500rpms of "good power".I have swapped T3and T3-T4 many times in my own car and the hybrid (remember,we are talking 8V's now) even with a .48 a/r and stage 1 turbine was a lag monster.8V's don't like high revs so you have a smaller powerband in the lower gears,for track it might be cool,you have to drop the clutch at 4500 rpm's though to get boost in 1-2nd gears,but for daily driving T3 is more "livable",boost in every gear.Remember now,we are talking 8V's.That is just my first hand real life experience.







I am sure the bigger turbo will give you more hp at higher revs,but SOME torque in the lower revs is nice too......Bolt it on Markku,you will see.If you don't like how it feels on the road,then T3 super 60 is good,or GT30 if you have the $$$


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_Remember guys,he is running a 2.0 8V.The 8V head tends to run out of steam at 6000rpm
i made my peak power at redline, sure i coulda made more, my turbo outlet on the exhaust side is 2", its probably a stage 1 wheel, not a lag monster, spools at 2800, full boost by 3600, probably less
also its a .48 hot .60 cold t3t4


_Modified by evoeone at 7:26 PM 5-8-2003_


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_
Sailor's just a dirty punk rock kid with too many piercings who drives a girly car... don't listen to him.







. 
Depends on what you want to do with your car. He wants to hit 12s with the 16V cabby, so traction is at a premium with early boost.

im not dirty, im italian.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_What RPMs is too quick? 15psi at 3krpm is nice. If that's too quick, then we disagree on that. 
_Modified by Speedy G at 2:31 PM 5-8-2003_

on my car, full boost- whatever i set it at ranging from 10 to 20, makes full boost by 4k. my dyno sheet shows that peak hp was made around 5500, peak torque at around 4750. It is cool and all, but i rather be pulling hard on the top end, not down low blowing tires off. here is my chart at 10lbs. i'll have one this weekend on 15 and 20lbs hopefully for you. i will also have the g-60 chart too. but from what i remember, peak tq was at 3500-4k, and peak hp was at 6/6500 rpm on the g-60 motor.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (vw16vcabby)*

That is exactly the point,see how your power and torque fall off,that is where the engine head combo also start losing VE(volumetric efficiency)so even if you bolted on a bigger turbo,unless you modify the head or cams ,I don't think it will pull harder to redline.The 8V VE is not as good as a 16V or VR6 so you still have that limited powerband.We also have to ask the question,wuill it be a street car or a track car?The head just starts to peter out at 5800-6000 rpms.(unless you modify it of course)


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (SILVERADO)*

I'm totally confused now ...








Is my Stage 1 turbine too small to make 280hp?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (euroroccoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euroroccoT* »_should of call me Markku i had a few turbos here that would of suit you very well, good luck.

I know, I should have waited a little, but I was kind of rushing it and when they showed me the shiney new turbo I just bought it assuming it was a stage 2.
One thing this thread has made me realize is that there is no RIGHT choice, it just depends on the goals of the end user. 
I spoke to my guy at L-Sport and he says he stocks this particular turbo to sell to 2.0L owners ... His choice of turbine was to have really good spoolup.
Now, I think I'd rather have a T04E compressor, but I'm not yet sure what kind of boost I'm planning on pushing, but that's a whole other can of worms.








Damn confusing.


_Modified by Agtronic at 10:37 PM 5-8-2003_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_What RPMs is too quick? 15psi at 3krpm is nice. If that's too quick, then we disagree on that. The stock 1.8t is fun to drive, and so is the K04 upgrade, and all of these have full boost in the mid-3krpms. Redline boost suffers, but that shouldn't be a problem with a B compressor. What's your boost at redline? I bet it doesn't fall off even 1 psi.


15lbs at 3k is WAY too quick.. I'm thinking the crossover into boost should be at about 3k 0-1lb.
The dyno graph above is of a 16v.. it will pull WAY higher than 6k up top, it's the turbine choking him down. 
HP doesn't = boost at redline at all! A small turbine housing or stage will cause too much exhaust back pressure and you'll loose the motor's VE because of more pumping loss per lb of boost. That's why big turbines make more power up top. 
Think about it this way a stock 2L with 10:1 and a .36 A/R turbine will make boost MAD early. The problem is that the car will feel like it stops pulling at like 4500-5k. It's like someone hit cruise control, it takes FOREVER to get past that point because the exhuast backpressure is SO high. Go up in A/R and turbine trim to get the backpressure down and the power/revability up.
Honestly I don't like how a stock 1.8T drives, it's like having a 2.5l I6.. and that just isn't exciting. I'll take lag for 50-100 more hp any day.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
15lbs at 3k is WAY too quick.. I'm thinking the crossover into boost should be at about 3k 0-1lb.
The dyno graph above is of a 16v.. it will pull WAY higher than 6k up top, it's the turbine choking him down. 
HP doesn't = boost at redline at all! A small turbine housing or stage will cause too much exhaust back pressure and you'll loose the motor's VE because of more pumping loss per lb of boost. That's why big turbines make more power up top. 


Yeah, what hea just said, there's rumors of a 500whp 16v making it through a stock 16v head with stock cams. BTW, Marco Santos is his name, some of you may know him as the guy with the blue rabbit named "Short Circuit", i think he ran a 10.1, something around there.
a stage3 turbine on a .63 a/r will give you much better breathing on the exhaust side but i'll move your power range up a bit more, i believe oversteer's car put down [email protected] of a T3/T4B H3 trim with that hotside, it's up to you guys, want fast spoolup then go with a small hotside, want good hp then go with a bigger one and have it pull higher into the revs.


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_
I currently have a brand new Turbonetics T3/T04B with an S-3 compressor and a Stage 1 turbine wheel in a .48 housing.
My goal is 250-280 hp and I can't for the life of me make up my mind about the turnine wheel. Stage 1 
What do you guys think?
_Modified by Agtronic at 1:25 AM 5-8-2003_

I think it is very unlikely that you will hit 280 HP with a stage 1 turbine and a .48 A/R housing. 
I have a .48 housing, stage 1 wheel...I really like it, and I don't plan on going bigger any time soon -- but I also plan on sticking with 220 HP or less. (and I think that may be pushing it).
-Steve


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Stephen Webb)*

Good info you guys,I mistakenly thought the dyno was a 8V,my bad.My only question is...................there is a guy mamed Chris,he works at PTR,and he has a 11 sec. Cabriolet 16V,and he is using a T3/T4 .48a/r stage 1 turbine,V or s trim wheel(I forgot) and he made 298whp on the dyno.That is what is confusing me,some people have said that it is good for 300hp.who knows?I guess try it and see.If I had a little highr redline I would'nt mind the lag,but 8V don't like to rev,it feels "rough" past 6200 rpm.But he is with you guys,he says he is putting a bigger turbo on there and going for more hp.


_Modified by SILVERADO at 8:32 PM 5-9-2003_


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (SILVERADO)*

T3/T04E 54-57 trim, .63 exhaust a/r, stage 3 turbine...good for over 300hp on a 2.0L(or a 1.8L) 16v with 8:[email protected]? Should spool around 4k to 7k-7500rpm? How many of you would say that this is a pretty good set-up?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Schraml MotorSports)*

I didn't come this far to just "accept" the wrong size turbo. I'm going to change it Monday.
Schraml MotorSports, I'm probably going to go with the same size as you, but probably with the .48 since I can't rev all the way to 7000 ...
I hope I'm doing the right thing here!








Thank you everyone for lending your time and adding to this thread! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

Sorry guys,I am a idiot,(as some of you already know)the turbo on Chris's 11sec. Cabby is .63 a/r,stage 3 turbine.Sorry about the misinformation,but I was told it was a .48 by his co-worker(Kirk at PTR)but I talked to him today and he cleared it up.


_Modified by SILVERADO at 3:54 AM 5-10-2003_


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (SILVERADO)*

yeah, i think he will be hard pressed to hit 300 on a .48. Where i am at now, i was happy w/ the 220 at 10lbs. i have the car set at 15lbs currently- getting ready to leave at midnight







at 10lbs- peak duty cycle is 55%. on 15lbs- im hitting around 77% So estimating off duty cycles, i would guess im around 280~ish. i think i would max the injectors if i tried going up another 5 lbs. im content to run w/ 75% at 15lbs now. i kick myself in the ass for not going w/ a .63. by end of summer i will have it.
edit- im running 55lb injectors, forgot to add that up in there. i believe 55lb's max'd will support around 300~ish. thats what im guesstimating off of. But i am going to a dyno tom, so i should hopefully know for sure what my current hp is, that is if i get the 2 hondata systems tuned in to have time left over for my own car.


_Modified by vw16vcabby at 11:45 PM 5-9-2003_


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (vw16vcabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw16vcabby* »_yeah, i think he will be hard pressed to hit 300 on a .48. Where i am at now, i was happy w/ the 220 at 10lbs. i have the car set at 15lbs currently- getting ready to leave at midnight







at 10lbs- peak duty cycle is 55%. on 15lbs- im hitting around 77% So estimating off duty cycles, i would guess im around 280~ish. i think i would max the injectors if i tried going up another 5 lbs. im content to run w/ 75% at 15lbs now. i kick myself in the ass for not going w/ a .63. by end of summer i will have it.

Looking forward to seeing your numbers, if you can get it on the dyno!
What size turbine are you running on your cabby? And what is your compression?
Thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SMOKINA4TURBO (Sep 25, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

After having a T3/t4b and a t3/t4e...all I gotta say is the B sucks.
No life boring turbo,but I was also running 20 psi on the E trim and B trims compressor maps lick ass. May be good for your application tho








Spools too fast and will never be able to deliver the blow the E trim does.
Who the hell make's silicone connectors for 2.75" inlet anyways?lol that is all.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Schraml MotorSports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Schraml MotorSports* »_T3/T04E 54-57 trim, .63 exhaust a/r, stage 3 turbine...good for over 300hp on a 2.0L(or a 1.8L) 16v with 8:[email protected]? Should spool around 4k to 7k-7500rpm? How many of you would say that this is a pretty good set-up? 

Joel Brown's 2.0 8v Golf [email protected] with a 1.6 60'
2.0 tallblock/crossflow,ross pistons cunningham rods arp bolts,o-ring copper headgasket,SS valves...web-cam, turbonetics T3/4 .63,stage 3,57 trim, 
ET:[email protected]+mph, this is the same turbo you just quoted.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

i couldn't get on the rollers. time was tied up w/ other cars. my turbo is a to4b/t3 "s" model, the turbine has the .48 stage 2 setup. turbonetics lists the turbos by trim letter (s, super s, etc), not by wheel sizes- the "s" is one of the smaller wheels, i forget the specs- it is on their website. i would have to rip the housing off to mic the wheels diameters- and if it aint broke im not touching it.
on a side note, a turbo type r w/ the same turbo dynod today- made 311 whp, 268 wtq at 15lbs on 94 sunocco pump gas- hondata engine management. this was on a lower reading mustang dyno.
also, the 8v g-60 rabbit hit the rollers w/ identical turbo- it hit 175/174 at the wheels w/ 14lbs. but fueling is still an issue. He is running digi 1. full boost was reached by 3500-4k. from 4k to redline- a/f was at 10-1. so disconnected the switch for wide open throttle- droped a/f down to 12-1/12.5-1 range- but we couldn't throw more than 14lbs at it w/o leaning it out w/ the switch off. we tried throwing more boost at it to lean it out w/ the switch engaged- 20lbs-and it was making less hp than at 14lbs w/ the switch deactivated. Thats how pig rich it was running. but it is getting there. 
last car that went on was a 240. it made 260~ish at the wheels. he has a mitsu style turbo- so no help for us.
to put this dyno into perspective- the 240 made over 300 whp last year on a dyno jet, did headwork/cams/rebuilt the bottom end/new intake- and made considerably less on a mustang. last yr it ran the 1/4 in 12.6 at 110 range- doing the dyno 1/4 pull- it was a 13.7 at 120- rear wheels were hopping all around the dyno, lol. so the mods picked up an easy 10mph or so in the 1/4- but the readings from dynos are waaaaaayyyyyy off. so it is hard to measure between the two dyno's. 
Another thing i can go off of, a friends sentra dyno'd at 293 on a dyno jet. then went to the same dyno we were at today, and made 220- no changes in the car. so there is a huge difference between the two. A kids 16v i tuned on a mustang dyno further up the road i dont think would put similar numbers up at the place i was at today- thats how low these readings seemed.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (vw16vcabby)*

The S wheel is like 1.9" inducer and 2.75" exducer, barely bigger than a super 60


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

I just wanted to compile some good info, since I feel like I've learned a bit:

_Quote »_HP doesn't = boost at redline at all! A small turbine housing or stage will cause too much exhaust back pressure and you'll loose the motor's VE because of more pumping loss per lb of boost. That's why big turbines make more power up top. 

Ok this is good info. I believe that.

_Quote »_Staging a turbine wheel is usually somewhere in between changing A/R's. We've been through that on the HC site a few times and the consensus was try and run the biggest staged exhaust wheel you can as it'll make boost lower and pull higher than the stage 1 at the next A/R.

That sounds like very good info. What all that means is that if my T3 S60 were to die on me, I'd go with a T3/T4E 40 or 46 trim with a Stage III or V .48 A/R turbine. Why? My turbo is already laggy enough since I'm at 8500 ft of altitude. I currently get 15psi by almost 4krpm with a ball bearing T3 S60, so I'm not willing to give up more spoolup. On the other hand, an E compressor can easily make up the 4 psi I lose with altitude without losing efficiency.

Other stuff:
I'm still arguing that E compressors are better for small, less flowing engines (VW) that require high psi to make HP, and the B compressors are better for higher flowing engines that require less psi, but need to flow more (Hondas).
Something I disagree with:

_Quote »_Honestly I don't like how a stock 1.8T drives, it's like having a 2.5l I6.. and that just isn't exciting. I'll take lag for 50-100 more hp any day.

You mean to say that beamer 325s are not that exciting? They're pretty exciting and extremely smooth. They're especially exciting when stroked to 3.2L (M3 engine).
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 12:41 PM 5-11-2003_


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

Man, I really don't know what to do tomorrow. Either, get the same turbo as I have now but with a stage 2 turbine wheel, or go with an E ...
Damn!


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_Man, I really don't know what to do tomorrow. Either, get the same turbo as I have now but with a stage 2 turbine wheel, or go with an E ...
Damn!









.63 a/r with a stage 3 turbine(Killa http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif )


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## euroroccoT (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Schraml MotorSports)*

Ive mention my turbo a few times because lots of people told it would not work good, T3 super 60 stage 1/ .82A/R turbine. full boost at 4500rpm made max power at 7000rpm. Awesome top end at only 12psi , this year 16psi i can't wait.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (euroroccoT)*

I'm wondering now ... which E-Trim compressor would be roughly equivalent to a T04B Super-S compressor, in terms of flow? If I don't plan to go over 15-17 psi, would I be better off with the T04B Super-S or a T04E 50 Trim?


_Modified by Agtronic at 7:00 PM 5-11-2003_


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (euroroccoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euroroccoT* »_Ive mention my turbo a few times because lots of people told it would not work good, T3 super 60 stage 1/ .82A/R turbine. full boost at 4500rpm made max power at 7000rpm. Awesome top end at only 12psi , this year 16psi i can't wait. 

Marc, that turbo is still small, just imagine what you would have ran if you had something bigger instead....


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_I'm wondering now ... which E-Trim compressor would be roughly equivalent to a T04B Super-S compressor, in terms of flow? If I don't plan to go over 15-17 psi, would I be better off with the T04B Super-S or a T04E 50 Trim?
_Modified by Agtronic at 7:00 PM 5-11-2003_

The S flows like 37lbs/min (good for 370hp). The E 40 trim flows about the same, and the T3 S60 is slightly less. They'll do like 300whp on a 1.8t at 7krpm with a standard shaft and .48A/R. If you only go up to 6500rpm go with just the std shaft .48 A/R.
If you'd like something biger, go with the E 46 trim Stage III or V on a .48A/R. Or, you could do a .63 A/R stage II as well. This should do over 400hp at the crank.
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 11:46 PM 5-11-2003_


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_
The S flows like 37lbs/min (good for 370hp). The E 40 trim flows about the same, and the T3 S60 is slightly less. They'll do like 300whp on a 1.8t at 7krpm with a standard shaft and .48A/R. If you only go up to 6500rpm go with just the std shaft .48 A/R.
*If you'd like something biger, go with the E 46 trim Stage III or V on a .48A/R. Or, you could do a .63 A/R stage II as well. This should do over 400hp at the crank.*

stage III turbine on a .63



_Modified by Schraml MotorSports at 12:07 PM 5-12-2003_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_ISomething I disagree with:
You mean to say that beamer 325s are not that exciting? They're pretty exciting and extremely smooth. 

Nope, not that exciting at all. Don't get me wrong E30 325is is pretty fun, it's just not all that quick. Much like a stock 1.8T. I don't like the down low torque feel, it gives the illusion of fast without being fast. Give me all the power above 3500 where it's useful, please.


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## euroroccoT (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
Marc, that turbo is still small, just imagine what you would have ran if you had something bigger instead....

I have read nobody running my turbo, im not going to switch turbos because everybody else is running T3/T04. This turbo because of the turbine housing does not flow like your ordinary T3 super 60, wich is what i want to fing out. Again like i
mention a few times, i don't race a dyno..... Im about making it work at the track not on rollers, so i will continue with this project to see the limits. Wich i have not even started yet. T3/T04B S trim same has my turbo 37lbs/min VS 36lbs/min.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (euroroccoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euroroccoT* »_
I have read nobody running my turbo, im not going to switch turbos because everybody else is running T3/T04. This turbo because of the turbine housing does not flow like your ordinary T3 super 60, wich is what i want to fing out. Again like i
mention a few times, i don't race a dyno..... Im about making it work at the track not on rollers, so i will continue with this project to see the limits. Wich i have not even started yet. T3/T04B S trim same has my turbo 37lbs/min VS 36lbs/min.

Marc, that's all good, but yeah, you get rid of backpressure, it'll take a bit more to spool and you increase volumetric efficiency, no big secret there, but trust me when i say that the super 60 doesnt stack up to ANY T3/T4, and trust me when i say that you'd go faster with a T3/T4, staying with that super 60 or not is up to you.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

More boost at the same efficency is a good thing. Luckily with the .82 you'll never surge.. heck toss a T62 on there and it won't surge


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## euroroccoT (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*

No way i will debate that a T3/T04 will go faster, but im more curious to see what this turbo will to the max capability, i have a T3/T04E 50 trim GT25R GT30 etc in stock ready to go on the car but im being







but i know i have a good selection to chose when im done trying with the Super 60. It's all about trial and error. that's the fun part.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (euroroccoT)*

Marc, i totally forgot that you had those turbos, with that being said, then you're just being







for sure since your setup would be capable of 11's haha, i guess someone has to find the limits of certain things. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
Marc, that's all good, but yeah, you get rid of backpressure, it'll take a bit more to spool and you increase volumetric efficiency, no big secret there, but trust me when i say that the super 60 doesnt stack up to ANY T3/T4, and trust me when i say that you'd go faster with a T3/T4, staying with that super 60 or not is up to you.








hybrid T owns


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

Step off Killa, he's doing R&D

 







I still gotta find a used .82 so I can try the .48, .63 and .82 back to back to back all on the same car to see what feels the best.


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 1:34 PM 5-12-2003_


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Step off Killa, he's doing R&D








I still gotta find a used .82 so I can try the .48, .63 and .82 back to back to back all on the same car to see what feels the best.

_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 1:34 PM 5-12-2003_

good luck and let us know what you come up with! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Schraml MotorSports)*

Nah, I was thinking of keeping it all a big secret


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*

Paul, let us know how that Greek .48 housing stacks against the normal t3 .48's.
and keep it on the hush.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

For sure man, I think the GREEK housing will pull better up top than the std housing and wheel. I'm just looking for a matching GREEK wheel to toss on there when I swap em out. I'll be sure to keep the results on the DL, we don't want everyone bothering you for the GREEK housings all the time, too hard to get.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*

This new Greek housing will be like the new Garrett Technology turbos (GT turbos), will most def. revolutionize the market.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

Definitely, I was going to port the GREEK housing, but it didn't even need it!







Take that!


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_This new Greek housing will be like the new Garrett Technology turbos (GT turbos), will most def. revolutionize the market.

Only if the Greek bearings wear out faster. Once their hooked on the Greek spool and top end, they'll keep coming back for more







.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (jwatts)*

yeah, and a nice .36 exhaust a/r with a stage1 turbine for all you 1.8T guys to represent.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

Damn I feel like an idiot.
I'm stuck with a very expensive turbo that is too small for my goal. I didn't get SDS and everything else to make 200 hp at the crank. I went back to the shop I bought it from and told them I'd like to switch it for a stage 3 and he just told me there was no reason 'cause the turbo "is good for 370hp". I told him that yes, the compressor is good for 350 ish, but there's no way the turbine will flow that. So he tells me the turbine wouldn't work on a T3, but that a T3/T4 there was no problem. So how am I supposed to argue that I need a larger turbine when HE's the one who owns a tuning shop and I'm an internet mechanic?
So now I'm stuck with a turbo that costs A LOT, and is too small for my needs. Who the hell is going to want to buy a turbo with such a small turbine?
I'm wondering why turbonetics would even put a stage one .48 with a relatively large compressor?
So I guess I'm stuck at around 220-230 hp ...








I'm an idiot.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

Hmmm... nah. Billy T got 320+whp out of a T3S60 with a .48A/R stage I on a 1.8t. You'll just need a big intercooler and boost the hell out of that turbo. He said it didn't hold boost to redline (well not 1.5+bar), but you should be ok. The S compressor is just not that efficient.
Tomorrow we'll see what my numbers look like (dyno day), but i suspect 240whp by 6500rpm at 1.3 bar and 8640ft altitude. Limp mode sets in at around 6500rpm, and altitude cheats me of around 4psi. My turbo is a T3 S60 Stage I .48A/R with a stock 1.8t intercooler. I run 9.5:1 compression and around 8-10 degrees advace at 1.3bar of boost.
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 11:05 PM 5-12-2003_


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

more boost+small turbine=small efficiency and less VE, keep that in mind.


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (killa)*

Given two compressors driven by the same turbine, A = small, B = large. The smaller compressor (A) will need more rpm to generate the same amount of boost as the larger one (B). The key thing to remember is that the flow properties of the turbine will change with pressure and rpm. Knowing this, the choke point of this turbine at x amount of boost/flow with compressor A won't be the same for it's application with compressor B. The lower rpm would change it's properties, usually for the better.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (jwatts)*

Well, I feel a little better now that I've had some time to think about it while I was at work, trying desperately to concentrate on my work ...
Man, at work, I broke a shoelace on my work boots, then on the drive home I discovered I can no longer make it to 5th gear, then as I was taking off my jacket once I got home, the zipper got stuck and it broke off. I'm just waiting for the computer to die on me while I'm typing this. Maybe this is a sign from God telling me to forget the damn turbo idea already and do something constructive for once, just like my dad keeps saying everytime he gets a chance ...
Damn, and you know what too? I just ran out of money. This sucks.
I feel like selling everything and getting a GMC van ...








I need sleep!


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (jwatts)*

Ok, translation please, and correct me if I'm wrong.
Killa says my S60 will have low efficiency and less VE at high boost. My response is yes I know, and I wish I'd known better when I got the S60. I didn't know about my 4psi at altitude problem. A T3/T4 40 or 46 trim, Stage II or III would've been better on a .48 A/R, ball bearing. However, I do have a nice FMIC, and my redline is around 6800rpm.
Regarding turbo RPM, I think the S-3 and the S60 flow about the same, but since the S-3 is bigger, it does so at lower rpms. Shouldn't they have similar responses given the same exhaust flow (same engine)?
Speedy G
P.S. You guys did convince me that .36 A/R is not so slick, btw.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

Chill, a bit of boost will make you feel much better. 220whp is not a bad thing btw.
Speedy G


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_P.S. You guys did convince me that .36 A/R is not so slick, btw.

Man, even my stupid azz knows that!


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_Chill, a bit of boost will make you feel much better. 220whp is not a bad thing btw.

That's very true. I gotta remember that. It's just that if I was shooting for ~200 hp, I would never have gone with the SDS ...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Speedy G* »_Shouldn't they (S60 and T4 S3) have similar responses given the same exhaust flow (same engine)?

Yes they will, almost identical. The boost response/lag is almost entirely determined by turbine housing size and trim (or exhaust backpressure). The intake side has very little to do with response unless you have about 8 miles of piping, or horrible restrictions. Though with a large compressor and small turbine, you really have to watch out for low rpm sure conditions.


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## euroroccoT (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (need_a_VR6)*

If you bought your SDS already you will see it's not a waste of money. your turbo is fine man stop reading the vortex, go out and do it you are chasing a number, build it and then drive let me know how 180whp feels for starters, you will see things in a different way after, now you a very very slow car, 100who if your lucky and your getting all confused because you wanted more that 250whp. Don't forget the list is very long to get everything working right. Keep at it. Tell the shop you want to change to a .63 A/R turbine, your new turbine for a new .63. straight swap. Should help with the high rpm flow. Don't get down Markku it's just the begining, What will happen when you break something.......


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (euroroccoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euroroccoT* »_If you bought your SDS already you will see it's not a waste of money. your turbo is fine man stop reading the vortex, go out and do it you are chasing a number, build it and then drive let me know how 180whp feels for starters, you will see things in a different way after, now you a very very slow car, 100who if your lucky and your getting all confused because you wanted more that 250whp. Don't forget the list is very long to get everything working right. Keep at it. Tell the shop you want to change to a .63 A/R turbine, your new turbine for a new .63. straight swap. Should help with the high rpm flow. Don't get down Markku it's just the begining, What will happen when you break something....... 

Yeah, I was being a little baby yesterday, rough, long day at work.







It's just so discouraging when you look at the amount of money that has been dumped into a car THAT ALREADY WORKS fine!








Thanks for the encouragement, I'll just bolt everything together and see where this turbo will take me. Just tuning the SDS will probably keep me busy for a few months. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

Will you put in the SDS before the turbo, or the other way around?
Speedy G


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Speedy G)*

Yeah, SDS is going in first. I'll get the base maps done before I add boost.
That's this weekend probably ...


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (Agtronic)*

Check this out Markku,I have a "generic" .60 trim,.42a/r comp.,.48a/r+stage 1 turbine that ATP sells in their 2.0turbo kits and I did 13.[email protected] with it in a 3000lb. car with SDS.Kirk at PTRSDS said "a 3000lb car would take 250-270whp to make a trap of 102.7 and he is along time turbo tuner/racer and he calculated this on his "1/4 mile/hp calculator",so I know it isn't as precise as a dyno,and remember this is street tuned no dyno,so I still can squeek out more power.So with my small turbo and crappier head than you I am making decent power,so you should'nt worry so much,you have a setup that you will have to tune and make it work,that turbo will probably be fine,just try it out,remember you are like me,building a street car,you will like some boost down low,it is fun.Just use that wideband thingy you got and you can MAKE it work,I know I had to!!And BTW EuroccoT,good advice,your right,you won't know till you try it,and 111mph trap?DAYAM your car has some serious top end!That is good for 12's with that trap! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (SILVERADO)*

man youre getting too technical, throw it on and you;ll be fine, 
stuck at 220-230? yeah you could hit mid 200whp's, but did you forget about stock internals... your one of th efew with SDS, and a t3t4 bitching abot the size, put it on and drive


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: T3/T04B S-3 / .48 Stage 1 (evoeone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evoeone* »_man youre getting too technical, throw it on and you;ll be fine, 
stuck at 220-230? yeah you could hit mid 200whp's, but did you forget about stock internals... your one of th efew with SDS, and a t3t4 bitching abot the size, put it on and drive









hahaha! I know! I wish I could go back, but I'm very against editing posts after there are replies ...








I just got down for a bit when I looked at all the money I had spent. I really didn't want to come this far, having chosen all the parts I wanted and then "settling" for wrong size turbo. Oh well, live and learn.
I'm gonna stop bitching and start wrenching, as soon as I have the guts. I also ran out of cash, so now I need to wait 'till next pay to buy oil lines, silicone couplers and various nipples / fittings, and to think I took out more than I needed ($$$) and still ran out.


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