# Oil weights for 2.0T FSI.



## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

My 2007 GTI manual states- 5W-40 recommended (502 00). In a recent visit to VW dealership for scheduled oil change, they mentioned to me that VW now uses 5W-30 (505.01) in these engines. I thought it was weird, and I haven't found this new 505.01 on any 5W-30 oil labels yet... anyone know anything about this?


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*

Brand?
There are VW 505 01 oils in 0w30, 5w30, 0w40 and 5w40 viscosity ranges.
*you don't need 505 01 for your 2.0T FSI, the 502 00 and 505 01 specs were harmonized in 2006*


_Modified by franz131 at 9:17 AM 6/10/2009_


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (franz131)*

As I was told by the service techs- 505.01 is an updated standard. So they put 5W-30 in mine. I asked why and VW has decided a thinner oil will be better now... same engine, new rules.
I know the 505.01 oils exist, the dealership uses Castrol. I'm just saying that I haven't seen it yet in Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart.. both places with decent oil choices.
They said "you can continue to put 5W-40 in, but we no longer use it for any of the 2.0T engines." You have the same engine in your A3- what does your manual say?


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*

The VW spec for gas motors is still 502 00, irregardless of it being coupled with 505 00 or 505 01 diesel specs.
One of the key parameters of the VW 502 00 spec is an HTHS minimum of 3.5 mPa.S. Whats important about that is that HTHS is measured at 150c which is 50c higher than the temperature the 30 or 40 (or 50) high temps numbers are measured at. 
Therefore, the viscosity range shown on the bottle is not the ultimate measure of the suitability of the oil for VW applications.
That said, the 30 and 40 (or 50) numbers affect the start-up and city-phase fuel economy. The fuel economy benefit is the reason most of the new specs require a 0w or 5w30 rating.
Can Tire and Walmart will have Castrol 5w40 and or Euro 0w30 which are VW 502 00 approved. Your dealership wants to sell you what they're using and only know how to use fear as a sales tool.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (franz131)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franz131* »_
Therefore, the viscosity range shown on the bottle is not the ultimate measure of the suitability of the oil for VW applications.

Franz, good post. You are right 40C/100C viscosity is not everything. Here are the factors I look for in choosing an oil for the OP's engine taken from another post:

When looking at an oil for this car I am looking for:
1) Resistance to shear because this engine shears down even the best oils in a very short time. Notably shear resistant oils such as German Castrol, Amsoil, and Redline are sheared in this car. I haven't seen any oil that does not shear in this car, it is only a question of how much it shears (thins out). 
I would look at real world performance in UOAs first to see how much oils sheared and High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) performance second. VW 502 requires HTHS of only 3.5 cP. Redline 5W40 is at 4.6 and 10W40 is 4.7 and several Amsoil oils are right up there as well. 
I would look at good base stocks such as group V third. Redline and Biosyn are thought to have largely group 5 basetocks in the mix along with group IV. I am sure some of the Amsoil products do as well I just don't know which ones.
Interesting video that shows how hot a turbo can get running at 5k rpm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated
2) Resistance to fuel dilution - Renewable Lubricants Biosyn may be the best out there for this
3) Ability to provide antiwear protection to the flat tappet fuel pump follower/cam. Look for high levels of Zinc and Phosphorus (ZDDP) Biosyn, redline, shaeffers, amsoil, and Rotella synthetic are all good in this regard and there are probably others but those ones jump out at me. Note that a minimum of 1200 ppm zinc has often been recommended for flat tappet engines. Check out the zinc levels of most 502 oils, they aren't that high for the most part,.
4) Ability to clean. M1 seems to do excellent in this regard. Oils with high Ca levels such as Rotella, Biosyn, Shaeffers, Amsoil, Redline, do well also. Ester based oils such as biosyn and redline have been noted as cleaning well. Ability to clean is especially important if the owner has not yet bypassed the pcv or implemented a good catch can system. The reason is because no fuel reaches the intake valves to clean them on this direct injection engine, therefore the volatilized oil, traveling through the pcv system is the only agent to clean the valves (note that valves don't need the cleaning if the pcv is bypassed).
5) Noack volatility - you want low volatility. Especially if you have stock pcv system.
6) high TBN - You want high Total Base Number TBN 
Sorry to be indirect but I hate recommending specific oils because I don't think there is that much real world difference between top-tier oils, although their marketing departments would like you to believe there is. Many of the oils buy their additive packs from the same manufacturer, f.e. amsoil, redline, joe gibbs racing, etc. all buy from lubrizol. So if you are using a top teir oil there is not going to be a night-and-day difference IMO. Just look for the specific specs you want as noted above. If you want a thicker oil you might consider redline 10W40 which starts at 14.7 cst or 5W40 which starts at 15.1. I only mention those because I know them off the top of my head. I believe rotella synthetic is over 15 as well but don't quote me. All the above is IMO.
*Ester (group V) based oils* 
Here are some interesting tidbits from an article about esters. Redline is a Polyol Ester (POE) Based oil (has PAO in mix also).
"Polyol esters can extend the high temperature operating range of a lubricant by as much as 50 - 100°C due to their superior stability and low volatility. They are also renowned for their film strength and increased lubricity which is useful in reducing energy consumption in many applications. The only downside of polyol esters compared to diesters is their higher price tag, generally 20 - 70+% higher on a wholesale basis."
"The primary structural difference between esters and PAOs is the presence of oxygen in the hydrocarbon molecules in the form of multiple ester linkages (COOR) which impart polarity to the molecules. This polarity affects the way esters behave as lubricants in the following ways:
1) Volatility: The polarity of the ester molecules causes them to be attracted to one another and this intermolecular attraction requires more energy (heat) for the esters to transfer from a liquid to a gaseous state. Therefore, at a given molecular weight or viscosity, the esters will exhibit a lower vapor pressure which translates into a higher flash point and a lower rate of evaporation for the lubricant. Generally speaking, the more ester linkages in a specific ester, the higher its flash point and the lower its volatility.
2) Lubricity: Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications.
3) Detergency/Dispersency: The polar nature of esters also makes them good solvents and dispersants. This allows the esters to solubilize or disperse oil degradation by-products which might otherwise be deposited as varnish or sludge, and translates into cleaner operation and improved additive solubility in the final lubricant."
here's the whole article: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...56670


_Modified by saaber2 at 8:54 AM 6-10-2009_


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (saaber2)*

Wow- where did you learn all that? Great knowledge but my original question seems to be lost here. 
Basically: Manual says 5W-40 in accordance with VW 502 00.
Dealership now uses 5W-30 for all oil changes based on 505.01 standard.
They aren't trying to sell me their oil per se (Franz131) they're just telling me that they don't put 5W-40 in any of the 2.0T engines.. (anymore)
All i'm really curious about here is why they (VW) would decide on changing to a lighter weight oil here? 
Should I commit to 5W-30 an look for the 505.01 seal of approval? Or stick with 5W-40?
In my area the only VW approved oil i've come across is Castrol syntec 502 00.. (in 5W-40.) I do more highway driving than anything. (there's only one 4-way stop in my town.. haha)


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*

Your answer is that VW 502 00 is more important than the viscosity grade. 
The dealer has gone to a single oil that covers all their gas and diesel applications for simplicity sake. You only have 1 car, so you don't have that problem.
VW 502 00 is the oil for you (that rhymes







)


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*

Just follow this: http://www.audiusa.com/etc/med...e.pdf
Makes it easy







Some dealerships are stocking 5w-30 Castrol SLX Professional LL03 which is a 504/507 spec oil which also works in our engines.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (corradokidg60)*

yes, thats the oil they put in my car. 
My concern was how the GTI manual says "must" use 502 00 spec 5W-40. 
These guys put 5W-30 in... 
So now that the spec numbers are straight (in my mind) the next question is- should 5W-30 be inside this engine when VW states 5W-40 in their GTI manual? 
They don't give out choices.
I checked your link- thx for that, but that info isn't quite what i'm looking for. 502 00 is for all VWs and Audis. I'm asking about the 2.0T FSI (to be specific).


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_yes, thats the oil they put in my car. 
My concern was how the GTI manual says "must" use 502 00 spec 5W-40. 
These guys put 5W-30 in... 
So now that the spec numbers are straight (in my mind) the next question is- should 5W-30 be inside this engine when VW states 5W-40 in their GTI manual? 
They don't give out choices.
I checked your link- thx for that, but that info isn't quite what i'm looking for. 502 00 is for all VWs and Audis. I'm asking about the 2.0T FSI (to be specific). 


I believe the wording is such that says requires 502.00 and if that's not available, a high quality 5w-40 weight oil is an acceptable oil to top off with. Or, if you're using a 5w-40 oil, it must be an approved 502.00 oil.
But as long as the oil meets 502.00 spec it is fine. There is no specific oil for a 2.0T when running fixed-interval oil changes. It's 502.00 spec that is only required. If you're in Europe and your car is equipped with variable service intervals then you must use a higher spec oil, such as 506.00 or 507.00.


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_yes, thats the oil they put in my car. 
My concern was how the GTI manual says "must" use 502 00 spec 5W-40. 


Nowhere does the manual say you must use 5w40, 502 spec oil. You must use 502 spec, with 5w40 being the preferred grade. However 0w40, 5w30, & 0w30 are acceptable as well AS LONG AS they are 502 spec. 
Its really as simple as this, if the oil is on the 502 approved list you're good to go. 
BTW, M1 0w40 is another 502 approved oil commonly available in many local AP stores. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (bcze1)*

Thx to everyones' input.. it's much appreciated!
TO change the subject a little- BURNING OIL. Mine's not super bad.. but it does burn it up. 
Right now I got the Castrol 5W-30 from VW dealership (505.01 spec). The previous OCI I ran Castrol syntec 5W-40 (502 00).
Is there an oil that perhaps doesn't burn as much in these engines?


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_Thx to everyones' input.. it's much appreciated!
TO change the subject a little- BURNING OIL. Mine's not super bad.. but it does burn it up. 
Right now I got the Castrol 5W-30 from VW dealership (505.01 spec). The previous OCI I ran Castrol syntec 5W-40 (502 00).
Is there an oil that perhaps doesn't burn as much in these engines? 

All the FSI 2.0T engines are going to burn some oil, some more than others (some mention as much as 1qt/1000mi.) Some people say a thicker oil will cause less consumption, not sure if there have been any tests (like 5w-30 vs 5w-40 vs 0w-40). Also, if your PCV valve has busted, your engine will consume oil. if you feel it's oil consumption is excessive, might want to get it checked out.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (corradokidg60)*

I don't think it's excessive and from what i've read thru various thread posts i see it's a common thing with these engines. 
I'm asking if anyone prefers a certain oil. I know that certain additives in oils burn more easily than others... so I'd like to hear some opinions on oil choices. For instance- if you've been running a certain brand for more than 15000km an notice a reduced consumption to what you previously used.


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*

I've always run 8-10k miles (recommended oil change interval) and now have 52k on my engine. I've also gotten oil analysis after every oil change except the last one to check on the TBN left in my oil. The oil was always fine, though one oil change had more metals in it probably because of my excessive intake cam wear and cam follower wear (common 2.0T issue not oil related.)
I've used the following oils:
Mobil 1 0w-40
Motul 8100 E-Tech 0w-40
Motul Specific 502.00 5w-40
Motul 8100 X-Cess 0w-40
Castrol SLX Professional LL 03 5w-30
It's hard to say if my oil consumption has been influenced by a change in oil, as the engine breaks in for the first 10k miles or so consumption is different. I've had a PCV valve fail. My intake cam replaces along with the HPFP and follower, then got APR's stage 1 reprogram.
In the end? I'm probably going to switch back to Mobil 1 0w-40. Because it's a bit thicker, and more readily available (I've had to mail-order all the Motul oil, and it's a bit pricey depending on what line oil you get.)


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (corradokidg60)*

Why have you chosen 0W-40? Is it due to the APR mod?


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*

Oil analysis showed acceptable TBN after 10k, more readily available, cheaper, don't have to mail order.


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_
Is there an oil that perhaps doesn't burn as much in these engines? 

Speaking only for the 2.0T in our B7 A4...it burned nearly 1qt of Castrol Syntec 5w40 during a 5k interval. Before and after that interval I ran M1 0w40 for 5k, and it burned next to zero. Needless to say I'll continue to use the M1.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_My 2007 GTI manual states- 5W-40 recommended (502 00). In a recent visit to VW dealership for scheduled oil change, they mentioned to me that VW now uses 5W-30 (505.01) in these engines. I thought it was weird, and I haven't found this new 505.01 on any 5W-30 oil labels yet... anyone know anything about this?

Here are some part numbers:
*VW502.00*
ZVW 352 167 (5w30)
ZVW 325 540 (5w40)
*VW505.01*
G 052 167 A2 (5w40)
Castrol TXT 505.01 (5w40)
Castrol SLX Professional OE (5w30) 
Here is the tricky part.
in about 2006, all the engine oil standards were harmonized into 504.00 (gas standards) and 507.00 (diesel standards). It is a Low SAPS oil also, 5w30.
GAU 052 195 M2
G 052 195 1L
Castrol SLX Professional Longlife III.
...match up the part numbers to what the dealeship uses


_Modified by GT17V at 8:00 PM 6-15-2009_


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Oil weights for 2.0T FSI. (GT17V)*

So are you saying that I can now choose between 502.00, 505.01, or 504.00?


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

basically... yes.
505.01 is techncially a diesel spec for Pumpe-Duse injection.
Very few gasoline engines required 505.01 in the North American market (ie, Audi RS6 engine, which in europe needed 503.01, the closest oil that met that performance is 505.01)
I have used 504.00 in the past. Too expensive from topping off the (basically 1 liter per 1000 miles)....used 504.00 on 2 occasions, and the same thing.
I would stick to 5w40, as my consumption is no where near as bad.
I would be more inclined to use 505.01 (of the VW specs), for the purpose of more protection for the fuel pump cam (as Pumpe-Duse injectors were timed/actuated via camshaft)


_Modified by GT17V at 10:15 PM 6-15-2009_


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

So M1 5W30 is okay?


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

...I love anwering my own questions...ESP 5W30 is approved...run-of-the-mill 5W30 is not. 
Buyer Beware


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (meb58)*


_Quote, originally posted by *meb58* »_...I love anwering my own questions...ESP 5W30 is approved...run-of-the-mill 5W30 is not. 
Buyer Beware

Is that ESP something 'special' ? I just picked up Mobil 1 fully synthetic 5w30 since 5w40 is really hard to find.
Is it ok or not? I run 5w30 in my supercharged BMW so I figured it should do for the GTI as well, right? I plan on changing every 5k mi btw.
Thanks!!!


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

ESP is VW504/507 approved


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_ESP is VW504/507 approved

But not the regular M1 5w30?
Where do I find VW 502 approved 5w40 oil? Any local stores (autozone, pepboys, etc.) that usually carry it? I just went to Kragen but the only thing they have is Rotella 5w40?!


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: (luciano136)*


_Quote, originally posted by *luciano136* »_
But not the regular M1 5w30?
Where do I find VW 502 approved 5w40 oil? Any local stores (autozone, pepboys, etc.) that usually carry it? I just went to Kragen but the only thing they have is Rotella 5w40?!

Why not just use Mobil 1 0w-40?


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

ESP Emissions System Protection...I think. This is a different formulation. Mobil's web site explains all.
I use 0W40 mobil 1 thanks to recommendations from folks here. 


_Modified by meb58 at 5:10 AM 6-23-2009_


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (luciano136)*

My experience so far has been using 5W-40 Castrol (noticable burning) and the VW dealer recently poured in 5W-30 (505.01 spec).
Since starting this thread I've learned that you can stay looking for 502 00 spec oils and whether it's 0W-40, 5W-30, or 5W-40- that is up to you.
I would like to try a brand different than Castrol next.. just to see if it burns less. The 5W-30 seems to burn less than the 5W-40 tho...


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_My experience so far has been using 5W-40 Castrol (noticable burning) and the VW dealer recently poured in 5W-30 (505.01 spec).
Since starting this thread I've learned that you can stay looking for 502 00 spec oils and whether it's 0W-40, 5W-30, or 5W-40- that is up to you.
I would like to try a brand different than Castrol next.. just to see if it burns less. The 5W-30 seems to burn less than the 5W-40 tho...


That's interesting. You'd think that 5w30 would burn more than 5w40? Why do these engines burn oil anyway?? I use Castrol Syntec 5w30 in my supercharged 10y old BMW and it doesn't burn one drop of oil?!


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (luciano136)*

Yah I donno what to say about it.. but I find it weird too. The 5W-30 is Castrol 505.01 spec.
This engine burns oil. My girlfriends' 03 GLI doesn't burn a drop. I was shocked at first but upon learning this "fact" it's just something for us to keep track of.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*

The 5w30 will probably burn more. If you want to stick with castrol, buy german castrol, 0W30 syntec european formula (it must say "made in germany" on the back of the bottle) as it is a much more shear stable oil and you may well see less burning. You can find it at Auto zone but not at most other stores. If it does not say "made in germany" on the back, it is not german castrol.


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

Stopped by the dealer at lunch. Picked up a six pack of Castrol Syntec 5w40. It's roughly $7.9/quart.


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## PrecisionTuning.ca (May 6, 2005)

*Re: (luciano136)*

I love it how M1 calls it full synthetic when it fact it is made of hydrocracked dino oil. 
It is your money, spend it the way you want but I would not touch mobil or castrol products in a high out out engine. 
I fried a race motor running these so called full synthetics. Never again.

There are lots of American and European blended oils out there that are miles ahead of these supermarket oils.

Look in to Redline, AMSOIL, Fusch, AGIP, Lubromoly, Pentosin, Motul, and Royal Purple XP line. Never run a 5W30 or even worse a 507 rated 5W30 in a 2.0T. 
If you want sheer stable oil then look into lubromoly 0W40 **** load of Zinc blended in to a group 4 base stock.


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

Well, I just changed it with the factory recommended oil. I also bought the ECS tuning magnetic drain plug. Not sure if it does any good but it was cheap anyway.
I'll be changing oil and filter every 5k btw.


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

Btw, I did notice a small trail of oil when I drove off the ramps?! Just some that was stuck on the bottom I hope?! Torqued everything correctly.


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (PrecisionTuning.ca)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PrecisionTuning.ca* »_I love it how M1 calls it full synthetic when it fact it is made of hydrocracked dino oil. 


Depends on the individual product. The 0w40 is built from group IV base stock. The 5w30...not so much.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (PrecisionTuning.ca)*

Precision tuning.ca, you might have fried a race motor for various reasons- or is it only because you put M1 in it?
Those race brands you listed off are quite a bit more expensive plus very difficult to find. I looked into Redline at Napa and they sell it for 24$ a litre!!!! 
Look in to Redline, AMSOIL, Fusch, AGIP, Lubromoly, Pentosin, Motul, and Royal Purple XP line. 
I don't know much about these oils but if you do could you explain why they're so much better? 
VW recommends 5W-40 or 5W-30 in the GTI manual, 502 00 spec. 
So you prefer 0W-40? How long have you been running that and where do you buy it? price? Lubromoly?


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

IMO, unless you run really long mileage intervals or endure extreme driving conditions (track), I doubt oil really matters that much. My BMW runs great with regular 5w30 and it's SC'd. Then again, I do change it ever 3k miles. 
If you change your oil at 5k mi or less in the GTI, I have yet to see any proof of damage caused by the oil.


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_Precision tuning.ca, you might have fried a race motor for various reasons- or is it only because you put M1 in it?


Race motors and ours have very different needs. Just because XXX brand is used by race cars is no reason to put it in yours. They don't have to worry about longevity, emissions, OCI durations, cost, etc. The best lubricating oils in the world, used by F1 teams, are absolutely not suitable for use in road cars.
Beyond that, has Amsoil or Redline (not picking on them, just 2 brands at hand) tested your specific motors lubrication needs for literally millions of miles? Not a chance. But guess what? VW has. Lubrication related failures are exceedingly rare when following manufacturer recommendations, whether its a VW, Honda, or Porsche.

_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_
So you prefer 0W-40? How long have you been running that and where do you buy it? price? Lubromoly?

Lubro Moly 5w40 (VW 502 approved) is now available at most if not all NAPA stores nationwide. Its


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

Don't they run straight 50 or 60w in race cars? Would indeed be very bad for a cold morning start in a regular car.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (bcze1)*

You helped make my point. Race oils don't necessarily provide better daily-driving protection.
I won't put anything inside my engine that isn't VW approved. 502 00 is the first thing i'm looking for, but I've since learned that 505.01 will be fine too.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_You helped make my point. Race oils don't necessarily provide better daily-driving protection.
I won't put anything inside my engine that isn't VW approved. 502 00 is the first thing i'm looking for, but I've since learned that 505.01 will be fine too.

Race oils usually have no detergents and are not designed for street use. Generally you drain them after each race. The oils that precision was talking about are NOT race oils. Redline for example makes both street oils and race oils.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

yes I am aware that Redline makes more than just racing oil. 
"precision" wrote that castrol and mobil are the reason his race engine blew up and i'm waiting to hear a better reply from him as to why he prefers these brands.


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_yes I am aware that Redline makes more than just racing oil. 
"precision" wrote that castrol and mobil are the reason his race engine blew up and i'm waiting to hear a better reply from him as to why he prefers these brands.

Yep, in the end, it's just about lubing the internals and as long as you don't deal with excessive heat or really long mileage intervals, I doubt any synthetic oil will break down that fast.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (luciano136)*

We are  dealing with excessive heat at the turbo and the oils do break down fast. Look at the 40+ used oil analysis database for this engine. A total of 4 out of over 40+ UOAs stayed in grade. that is horrible. Also the flashpoints are in the toilet.
In addition to excessive heat, we are dealing with fuel dilution which thins out the oil and assists in breaking it down. In addition to that, we have the deposit issue on the valves. This is made worse by volatile oils and oils that break down as well as the fuel dilution. 
In addition to that, we have the cam follower issue. This poor design causes the cam follower/fuel pump/cam to wear out rematurely, thus maximum protection is needed at this part. We need high ZDDPor whatever maximum boundary layer protection we can get to help with this. Also any breakdown of the oil (and they do break down like crazy in this engine) is going to exacerbate that problem. Basically you need the toughest, most loaded oil you can find in this engine. It is not at all like a honda or toyota engine where it doesn't really matter what you use.


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

So, it's basically the poor design of this engine that causes excessive wear on the oil? Because yeah, it has a turbo but let's be realistic, it's a pretty small one. There are a lot of engines out there that push a lot more power and boost and don't require any special oil.
That said, I'll just use whatever the factory recommends so I don't void any warranties. In fact, if I change it every 5k rather than the 10k recommended interval, I sure hope I'm ok.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

So then the questions are: which oils will deliver the highest protection? Should we be going as thick as possible here? Shorter interval times?


----------



## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_So then the questions are: which oils will deliver the highest protection? Should we be going as thick as possible here? Shorter interval times?

I vote shorter interval times. A thicker oil might protect better against heat but it is not good on a cold start. Starting the car is actually one of the hardest things on the engine; using a really thick oil would not be recommended. I'm guess something like 10w60 that they use in the high rev S54 engine from BMW should give good protection.


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

I know this is not really on topic and what I am about to write is a one time observation.
I used Redline 20W50 during a track event...four sessions in total. If I beleive the idiot guages, oil psi was high and oil temps were also high. I removed this oil for the thrid and forth session and replaced it with M1 5W30 and all was normal.
I typically run the M1 5W30 in this car so this was an experiment, however un-scientific. I have no actual temp recordings or graphs, just the guages and a lot of experience under many conditions with those guages.
I'm not sure the heavier oil would have produced the same results in normal driving and I'm not suggesting that the heavier oil provided less protection, just that oil temps rose as did psi.
In fairness, I should have used the same manufacture for this experiment. But I couldn't get the lighter weight Red Line at the track that day.
The car is not a VW


_Modified by meb58 at 5:54 AM 6-25-2009_


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_So then the questions are: which oils will deliver the highest protection? Should we be going as thick as possible here? Shorter interval times?

Shear resistance and anti-wear properties of the oil is more important than just thickness. German Castrol for example is a shear stable oil and is a 0W30. Syntec 5W40 shears much more. The thicker oil does give you a bit more "cushion" as the oil thins out, but it really depends on the oil. Protection is not determined by thickness alone, the anti-wear additives play a huge role as well as what type of base stocks used (f.e. group V esters vs. group III). For example if you are using an oil with low ZDDP, it may show up as increase cam/cam follower wear on the engine.
A good example is this UOA on M1 0w40 for the 2.0 FSI. Iron started to increase above 9k and the cam follower wore out according to the OP. Also lead started to show up at around 18k which means that likely there is some bearing scuffing occurring. Having higher levels of ZDDP and a more shear stable oil may possibly have helped, as would running a shorter oil change interval.








Here is another problem with sticking to the manufacturers recommendations only. This car ran M1 0W40 changed every 10k for 100k miles (as recommended by VW). A less volatile oil and better cleaning oil (although M1 is good at cleaning) may have helped, as well as running shorter oil change intervals.








As I said above, these are poor designs and we are trying to compensate by using better oil. In the case of the valve deposits, it can be dealt with directly with a pcv bypass, etc. but the cam wear issue does not have a work around as well as the fuel dilution issue.


_Modified by saaber2 at 7:15 AM 6-25-2009_


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (meb58)*


_Quote, originally posted by *meb58* »_I know this is not really on topic and what I am about to write is a one time observation.
I used Redline 20W50 during a track event...four sessions in total. If I beleive the idiot guages, oil psi was high and oil temps were also high. I removed this oil for the thrid and forth session and replaced it with M1 5W30 and all was normal.
I typically run the M1 5W30 in this car so this was an experiment, however un-scientific. I have no actual temp recordings or graphs, just the guages and a lot of experience under many conditions with those guages.
I'm not sure the heavier oil would have produced the same results in normal driving and I'm not suggesting that the heavier oil provided less protection, just that oil temps rose as did psi.
In fairness, I should have used the same manufacture for this experiment. But I couldn't get the lighter weight Red Line at the track that day.
The car is not a VW

The 20W50 was probably too thick for the car. Running a lighter weight oil (in the range specified for the car) with high HTHS (High Temperature High SHeer) would prob. have produced better results. As noted above thickness is only part of the equation. Here is one example, if one believes Amsoil's testing (and I'm not sure that I do but who knows?) that shows Lucas oils NOACK volatility to be 40%, that oil, even if it was thick, would lose tons of it's weight as the volatile components burn off. It would be very unlikely that it would give better protection even though it is thicker. In fact the volatilized components may cause other problems such as deposits, etc. So it really depends on the oil. There are oils that are notably shear stable such as some of the Amsoils, Biosyn, Redline, German Castrol, M1 TDT 5W40, etc.


_Modified by saaber2 at 7:27 AM 6-25-2009_


----------



## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
A good example is this UOA on M1 0w40 for the 2.0 FSI. 

The UOA you posted ran Motul, not M1. 

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Here is another problem with sticking to the manufacturers recommendations only. This car ran M1 0W40 changed every 10k for 100k miles (as recommended by VW). A less volatile oil and better cleaning oil (although M1 is good at cleaning) may have helped, as well as running shorter oil change intervals.


saaber you're far more of an oil guru than I'll ever be, however tI'm not sure about your hypothesis. From my observing different forums the filthy valves being found in FSI and other DI motors seems to be unrelated to specific oils or OCI's. RS4's have shown it with under 10k miles on the clock with 3k OCI's. I would venture to say that if you pulled the head on 10 different 2.0T's with 100k, running 10 different oils, you'd find 10 sets of gunked valves. 
Also, a question about OCI: Its my understanding that volitility is at its worst when an oil is fresh, and reduces over time. If that's the case wouldn't less frequent intervals reduce the amount of blow by and therefore valve deposits?


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (bcze1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bcze1* »_
The UOA you posted ran Motul, not M1. 
saaber you're far more of an oil guru than I'll ever be, however tI'm not sure about your hypothesis. From my observing different forums the filthy valves being found in FSI and other DI motors seems to be unrelated to specific oils or OCI's. RS4's have shown it with under 10k miles on the clock with 3k OCI's. I would venture to say that if you pulled the head on 10 different 2.0T's with 100k, running 10 different oils, you'd find 10 sets of gunked valves. 
Also, a question about OCI: Its my understanding that volitility is at its worst when an oil is fresh, and reduces over time. If that's the case wouldn't less frequent intervals reduce the amount of blow by and therefore valve deposits?

Your right it was Motul, I was thinking of the earlier change. The intake deposit issue is a design problem IMO and oil choice can hurt or help it to some extent. I agree that you can't fix this design problem with oil but it appears, due to the work of audi RS owners, that running biosyn helps reduce the deposits. This apparently is due to lower volatility (less gunk to get to the valves in the first place) and better cleaning ability (to deal with the gunk that is there). A better way to deal with it of course is to get rid of the problem altogether via pcv bypass, atmospheric catch can, etc. 
My point is that you cannot simply rely on "I'll just do what the manufacturer says". It is clear that if you do that, you likely will get both the cam follower problems and the valve deposits. VW even says this in their own patent for the engine (for the valve deposits issue I mean) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...14263. As far as volatility being higher at first that is a minor factor when you consider how the oil is quickly thinned and low flashpoint. Running a thinned down, volatile oil for a long time is not a good idea, as shown in the UOA and photo above. Plus if you are running a ultra low volatility oil in the first place, there is very little to volatilize at the start anyway compared to a more volatile oil. Btw, I still would like to know if that amsoil claim about Lucas oil's NOACK being 40% is true. That is crazy volatility. The oil would evaporate 40% of it's weight at high temps? That is nuts! Almost like adding pre-fuel diluted oil!










_Modified by saaber2 at 10:49 AM 6-25-2009_


----------



## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
My point is that you cannot simply rely on "I'll just do what the manufacturer says". It is clear that if you do that, you likely will get both the cam follower problems and the valve deposits. 

Yes and no. Both the valve deposit problem and cam follower issue are inherent design flaws. Running different oils _may_ prolong them becoming a serious issue, but will prevent neither of them. I have personally seen zero evidence that one oil is superior in protecting the cam follower over another. I understand that oils with high ZDDP _should_ protect better, but the real world failures are all across the board. At least by following manufacturer specs you can rely on your warranty for 60k miles.

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_As far as volatility being higher at first that is a minor factor when you consider how the oil is quickly thinned and low flashpoint. Running a thinned down, volatile oil for a long time is not a good idea, as shown in the UOA and photo above. Plus if you are running a ultra low volatility oil in the first place, there is very little to volatile at the start anyway compared to a more volatile oil.


But even with a low volatility oil there would still less gunk available to form deposits at say 5k miles than 1k miles on the oil. And I'm not suggesting 20k OCI's either, obviously FSI motors are hard on oil and lubrication & protection would suffer. But there may be a 'sweet spot' of sorts that still protects and reduces valve deposits. Depending on the oil and individual motor maybe its 5k OCI, maybe its 7.5k, shoot maybe VW has it right and its 10k. Because regardless of our feelings of UOA's showing oil with little life left at 5k or so, real world evidence shows that 10k is just fine or we'd be seeing some failures as a result.

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
Btw, I still would like to know if that amsoil claim about Lucas oil's NOACK being 40% is true. That is crazy volatility. The oil would evaporate 40% of it's weight at high temps? That is nuts! Almost like adding pre-fuel diluted oil!










It must be true. Amsoil's marketing has never been deceptive before...










_Modified by bcze1 at 12:05 PM 6-25-2009_


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (bcze1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bcze1* »_But even with a low volatility oil there would still less gunk available to from deposits at say 5k miles than 1k miles on the oil.

Not sure this is true because at 5k the oil has thinned out of grade (less than 10% stay in grade) and flashpoint has dropped considerably. So volatility is much higher overall and lubricity, anti wear ability, etc. all suffer, contiminants build up, etc. 

_Quote, originally posted by *bcze1* »_real world evidence shows that 10k is just fine or we'd be seeing some failures as a result.

But the above photo of valves where owner ran M1 0W40 on 10k OCI intervals is real world evidence right? And the above failed cam follower on 502 oils at 10k OCI and the tons of failed cam followers on the cam follower threads where they followed VW specs on oil and OCI? But if you are talking about catastrophic engine failures, no we aren't seeing those. Just gummed up intakes, runners, valves, misfiring, gummed up rings, worn cams/follower, fuel pump. I'd rather not have any of those on my car although they don't generally cause catastrophic engine failure.


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

We also need to keep in mind that "factory recommended" is mainly marketing and doesn't mean it's really the best for the engine. And by that, I mean maintenance intervals. They just want to make people think that the car is low maintenance. 10k oil change intervals on a car with forced induction sounds high IMO. 
One of these other jokes is "lifetime" transmission fluid. Really? Change some tranny fluids at 100k miles; they look far from being "lifetime".


----------



## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (luciano136)*

I agree that the VW service recommendations do seem stretched. My OCI is at 8000km. I'd rather change it myself at 5000km... or is that too soon?


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_I agree that the VW service recommendations do seem stretched. My OCI is at 8000km. I'd rather change it myself at 5000km... or is that too soon? 

I'm changing at 5000mi (or 8000km). I think that's acceptable for a synthetic oil. If you drive it hard or deal with a lot of bad traffic, I would probably change it at 5000km.


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
But the above photo of valves where owner ran M1 0W40 on 10k OCI intervals is real world evidence right? 

I believe so. Would it have looked better if the OCI was 5k? Or 15k? Or if it had been filled with Redline? We don't know. 

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_And the above failed cam follower on 502 oils at 10k OCI and the tons of failed cam followers on the cam follower threads where they followed VW specs on oil and OCI? 

Most cam follower threads I've seen have been on shorter OCI's, generally 5k. 

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_But if you are talking about catastrophic engine failures, no we aren't seeing those. Just gummed up intakes, runners, valves, misfiring, gummed up rings, worn cams/follower, fuel pump. I'd rather not have any of those on my car although they don't generally cause catastrophic engine failure. 

Agreed, but I don't think any oil will prevent those thing, rather prolong them from occurring. Maybe. Those issues are related to the inherent design flaws that no oil can remedy. But if 502 spec oil was actually inadequate at VW recommended 10k intervals, we'd be seeing catastrophic failures by now in addition to these known issues. 
I guess I simply haven't seen conclusive evidence that there are better methods to maintain these motors than what the manufacturer recommends due to the hardware limitations. 


_Modified by bcze1 at 1:02 PM 6-25-2009_


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## chisss (Jun 16, 2009)

What is funny is that most of what I read here has been discussed in the Mazda forums since I also have a speed6 (along with the Passat 2.0T) and both have DI and both have the gunk issue. 
Now on our end there were a lot of oil analysis done and "four our engines (MZR)" the best one seemed to be the Pennzoil Full Syn. We had the issue with other oils and shearing. Also our intervals are way lower. 5K miles per manufacturer. 
Today I removed the Intake Manifold on the mazda and sure enough there was a lot of crap everywhere, not as bad as that picture above but nasty nontheless. 
The mazda has 49K Miles and the main reason was the PCV valve and its design flaw. Most PCV valves are on the top of the engine. The mazda has it on the side dumping into the IM. so now I installed a OCC to catch all that crap before it gets into the IM. 
So is it a design flaw from VW/Audi? Yes and No. The issue is the DI engine, there is nothing to clean the valves anymore and the fact the fuel gets dumped into the cyl shears the sh*t out of the oil, some people are running 0-40 in the mazdas and seem to be doing ok.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (chisss)*

Unavoidable gunk issue....hmmm.
I don't want to burn my money any faster than the 2.0 burns oil. Seems that 8000km is a good OCI and as far as oil selection goes maybe the expensive race brands or euro imports aren't necessarily better? 
While I remain skeptical about Castrol 5W-40- I've read positive testimonials. 
Some peeps slam Mobil1, but lots more like the 0W-40.
AMS, Redline, Lubro Moly sound good.. but is the mail order search +$$$ REALLY worth it? 
At times I think peeps tend to believe that more $$$ spent means they get a better product. I know not all oils are created equal.. but they ARE pretty close. I'm not a scientist; and I won't pretend to understand oil chemistry. If you have a solid reason to prefer a certain oil, share your opinion. 
Knowledge is power. 
No one's discussed oil filters yet.. anybody have info to share?


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm using Mann filters; same as my BMW. I change the filter together with the oil every 5k. If I use the VW recommended oil and cut their change interval in half, I sure do hope I'll be fine. If not, well then this is the last VW I bought







.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*

I paid $.50 more per quart for redline than M1 0W40. So that is about $3 more per oil change. Even if it was $1 more that would be $6. If you are trying to save money, GC is available on sale sometimes at autozone for around $5-$6/qt.
Syntec 5W40 has shown some of the highest shearing rates and lowest flashpoints and higher fe "wear" levels on average compared to other oils. One could make a good case that it may be the worst 502 oil. And I don't mean to imply that it is bad for your engine, it is just that there are other oils which have stronger additve packs and are more shear stable and these may be much better for your engine. These factors are important becasue the 2.0 FSI for example is really hard on oil due to: 1) Turbo, 2) Fuel diluting DI engine, 3) cam follower/cam wear issue, 4) pcv gunk to intake, valves, etc. issue. Here is the graph of the UOAs we have:











_Modified by saaber2 at 8:45 AM 6-29-2009_


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_
I don't want to burn my money any faster than the 2.0 burns oil. 

Other discussion aside, I can tell you our A4 burned a quart of Castrol Syntec 5w40 in 5k miles, and burns next to zero M1 0w40. Just one more reason I won't be using Castrol again (at least for this application).

_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_No one's discussed oil filters yet.. anybody have info to share? 

I have purchased filters from the dealer, also Fram and Purolator. They all appeared identical and all were made in Germany. I have a feeling that due to the relatively low numbers of these motors in the states that Fram and others are just rebranded Mann filters.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Saaber2- Where I live (Van. Island, BC) Redline is available at Napa for $24 a litre!! I haven't seen the M1 0W-40 anywhere yet but the Castrol 5W-40 is $45 a jug (4.4L).
So if you had to pay $121 for your Redline oil, would you?


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_Saaber2- Where I live (Van. Island, BC) Redline is available at Napa for $24 a litre!! I haven't seen the M1 0W-40 anywhere yet but the Castrol 5W-40 is $45 a jug (4.4L).
So if you had to pay $121 for your Redline oil, would you?


If redline is that much better, you can actually find it online for $9.95/quart. Not much more than the Castrol Syntec 5w40. If I notice oil burning over the next 3k mi, I might consider using that. Amsoil is supposed to be pretty good as well.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*

$24 a litre? Holy crap!







I paid $7.39/qt in oct 08 at thrifty auto but they were bought by carquest and now the cheapest I can find it in local auto part stores is $8.99. Is the high price a canadian thing or is the NAPA guy just trying to screw you? $24 is crazy! There should be a local independent or foreign or speed shop/racing auto parts store that can get it for about $9 unless there is some markup/tax for Canadian? 
Or online these guys have it for $8.46 by the case plus $9 shipping. http://www.racerpartswholesale..._Oils
other online dealers here: http://www.redlineoil.com/dealers.asp#online or google
I know one guy said he got it for 8.99 delivered from OG racing: http://www.ogracing.com/catalo...-OILS 
Seems like most online places are $9-$10/qt. They maybe would give discount and/or free shipping buying by the case.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Hah! yeah.....it's a Canadian thing.
I talked to a AMSOIL rep this afternoon that can get me 5L jugs for $63.
If that oil is a good one i could get it shipped by the drum.. you save in bulk.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*

Just for kicks I emailed http://www.racerpartswholesale..._Oils . They said they can deliver redline to vanc. island for $12.50/qt. That still seems high to me. I guess that is $12.50 canadian and that is why it seems high? That $24 number is just ridiculous IMO! It seems like some local shop should have it cheaper than the $12.50 though.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

i've been using castrol syntec in my car since 1.5k miles and i have not been happy with its performance... like everyone here has discussed, it is horrible at resisting fuel dilution and drops in viscosity due to sheering. i've continued my search for the best 502 approved oil, and will be trying Motul Specific 5w40, Motul X-Cess 8100 5w40, and Total Energy 9000 5w40 for my next tests.
i am a big supporter of shorter change intervals because the VW recommended 10k is obsurd based on the results of the UOA's that saaber has amassed. currently with the castrol, i've been running 3k intervals and the oil is still trashed when i drain. i think once i find the best synthetic out there, 4-5k change intervals should be the best balance of wear protection and keeping volatility resonable. mann oem replacement filters are the only way to go, and they should be changed during every drain cycle. 
as for oil selection/shorter intervals preventing the intake deposits and cam follower issues, i think that is a pipe dream. there are inherent issue with the 2.0T FSI and the only way to prevent rediculously gunked intake valves and scored cams is aggressive preventative maintenance. even on the best maintained vehicles, the HPFP will need to come off and have the follower replaced every 20k or so. And ideally, the intake manifold should be pulled every 50k or so to remove intake deposits. 
there is no "best" solution for our issues...
btw, i hate mobil 0w40... it is a garbage oil that relied on a lot of modifiers to get the viscosity flexibility. in high tempurature, high abuse applications, it has an alarming tendency to sheer and cause uncomfortable levels of friction. out of all the approved oils for the 2.0T, i would be the least inclined to use Mobil 1. just my $.02
here is my UOA of the last 2 runs on castrol if anyone is interested:


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks for the info! I'm thinking about giving Amsoil or Redline a try on the next oil change. Any preference between those two?


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (luciano136)*


_Quote, originally posted by *luciano136* »_
Thanks for the info! I'm thinking about giving Amsoil or Redline a try on the next oil change. Any preference between those two?

redline has held up pretty damn well for saaber throughout his analysis... it is a group V oil that is made using superior base stocks compared to most of the 502 approved oils. if you search his posts in the oil and lube forums, he has provided a lot of technical data on it. i'm sure he will gladely chime in and tout its properties again haha http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
if i was out of warranty, that's probably the oil i would be using. finding a cheap source seems hit or miss though...


_Modified by rhouse181 at 12:20 PM 7-1-2009_


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_
redline has held up pretty damn well for saaber throughout his analysis... it is a group V oil that is made using superior base stocks compared to most of the 502 approved oils. if you search his posts in the oil and lube forums, he has provided a lot of technical data on it. i'm sure he will gladely chime in and tout its properties again haha http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
if i was out of warranty, that's probably the oil i would be using. finding a cheap source seems hit or miss though...

_Modified by rhouse181 at 12:20 PM 7-1-2009_

So, your oil changes are covered by warranty? Mine aren't anyway, so I think Redline it is. Being in Socal, I shouldn't have a problem finding it for a decent price. I'll look up what the VW 502 approved weight is with Redline. Maybe it's even the same as my BMW; might use it for that one as well.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (luciano136)*


_Quote, originally posted by *luciano136* »_
So, your oil changes are covered by warranty? Mine aren't anyway, so I think Redline it is. Being in Socal, I shouldn't have a problem finding it for a decent price. I'll look up what the VW 502 approved weight is with Redline. Maybe it's even the same as my BMW; might use it for that one as well.


no, my oil changes aren't covered under warranty, but my car is still covered under warranty... if you cannot furnish receipts of vw approved oil and filters for all your self performed oil changes, then VW will more than likely refuse warranty work on anything engine related. redline is not on the vw approved oil list because then tend not to pay to have their oils tested and approved by VW. that's why i'm continuing my oil tests with only vw 502 approved euro oils so i can prevent any warranty hassles if need be in the future... 
redline far surpasses vw oil specification though and works great in our motors... but if it isn't stamped for approval by VW, then no dice http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 



_Modified by rhouse181 at 12:33 PM 7-1-2009_


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_
no, my oil changes aren't covered under warranty, but my car is still covered under warranty... if you cannot furnish receipts of vw approved oil and filters for all your self performed oil changes, then VW will more than likely refuse warranty work on anything engine related. redline is not on the vw approved oil list because then tend not to pay to have their oils tested and approved by VW.
redline far surpasses vw oil specification though and works great in our motors... but if it isn't stamped for approval by VW, then no dice http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

_Modified by rhouse181 at 12:32 PM 7-1-2009_

Oh, I didn't know it wasn't on their list. What would be the best oil that IS on their list? I don't really want to risk my warranty either.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (luciano136)*


_Quote, originally posted by *luciano136* »_
Oh, I didn't know it wasn't on their list. What would be the best oil that IS on their list? I don't really want to risk my warranty either.


I don't think there is a consensus about which vw approved oil is the best out there, just that Mobil 1 and Castrol aren't cutting it. The rumors/opinions about Motul seem to be positive, that's why i'm trying two of their oils in my test. So far, i've run 1k on Motul Specific and my oil consumption has still been zero (same as Castrol) and the oil still looks squeeky clean and new on the dipstick (unlike Castrol).
so all i can suggest is stick with whats readily available at shorter change intervals, or try some different oils and do UOA's after each one... either that or hang tight until someone else discovers/determines the best vw502 approved oil


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Saaber2- NAPA's reg. price is 24$ a litre but it's currently "on sale" for $17. You say $12.50 to ship... well if you factor in duties plus the exchange rate i bet that $17 tag is the Canadian wholesale price.
I just chalk it up to the fact that it's a specialty brand that isn't widely available in Canadian stores. Plus- they only sell it in 1L bottles too. 
It might be a great oil- but I won't use it if there's no VW 502 00 stamp on that bottle.
I mentioned the AMSOIL mail order and I'll try that one out next. It's 502.00, 505.00 and/or 505.01 approved (5W-40).
I too am under warranty still and because of this I'm choosing (reluctantly) to let VW do the oil changes, except I'll bring in the oil for them to fill.
I hate not doing it myself but this way i still get the "service date stamp" in my manual.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*

Amsoil is not vw approved either. If it says it on the bottle that doesn't mean anything in terms of vw approval. GC said it met vw 502 on the bottle for a long time and it wasn't on the list until approx. April 2009. Here is the vw approved list:
http://www.audiusa.com/etc/med...e.pdf
Good luck
Also you may want to do a search for the 2 most recent examples where vw dealers screwed up a routine oil change and the cars ran out of oil. My car will not see the vw dealer unless I have no other choice. There is absolutely no reason you need to have the dealer do the oil change to meet warranty requirements. You do not have to have a stamp in the booklet to meet warranty requirements. you need to have documentation of maintenance. Also never race, your car, take it to the track, or do mods of any kind, as those will also jeapordize your warranty. Do the oil change yourself and document the oil change. if you want to do overkill, keep a maint. log. take pictures of the oil change including odometer, and keep receipts. 


_Modified by saaber2 at 7:25 PM 7-1-2009_


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx
AMSOIL 5W-40 is approved.. so they say.
Would that not be a major misrepresentation lawsuit if they were lying?


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*

Let me repeat. If it is not on the vw list, that oil is not approved by vw.


----------



## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx
AMSOIL 5W-40 is approved.. so they say.
Would that not be a major misrepresentation lawsuit if they were lying? 



Here is the quote from the AMSOIL website:
"AMSOIL 100% Synthetic European Car Formula is formulated to surpass the most demanding European specifications. It is recommended for European and North American gasoline or diesel vehicles"
nowhere in their statement do they say it is a "approved" oil, they can only say recommended. this is to avoid litigation being filed against them... 
unfortuntely if it is not stamped and approved by VW themself, then it is not warranty safe


----------



## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

Get this. I just talked to a friend of mine and his VW dealer in Las Vegas is using Amsoil in his GTI and actually recommends using it?! Weird...


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (luciano136)*


_Quote, originally posted by *luciano136* »_
Get this. I just talked to a friend of mine and his VW dealer in Las Vegas is using Amsoil in his GTI and actually recommends using it?! Weird...

Warranty issues are at the dealers discretion. We all know many dealers look the other way when people mod their cars such as adding software "chips". A dealer can deny a warranty for pretty much any reason they want. You can either live in fear and never do anything to your cars such as mods, race it, take it to the track or you can do what you want to the car and take reasonable precautions such as having a maintenance log etc. or you can not worry about it and talk to the dealer and see if it is a big deal to them.
One local dealer here sells 3rd party chip software at the dealership. you can buy a new car and have it chipped immediately. If you ask them, they will say it violates the warranty and if you have a failure directly related to the software they may deny the claim. But then in talking to them in detail they won't deny the claim and will work to get it covered under warranty. My opinion is do what is right for your car and take necessary precautions to make sure you have documentation of maintenance.
The people who say that if you don't use 502 oil oil you are automatically not going to be covered under warranty are correct according to the manual but not in real life. Just like adding APR software for example, you are not automatically throwing away your warranty in the real world (but according to the manual you are). It just totally depends on the individual dealers attitude. Just have documentation of your maintenance including the other required items such as checking coolant level, etc. not just changing the oil.


----------



## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (luciano136)*

I think that if AMSOIL is willing to put their rep on their oil EXCEEDING the VW specs then it's probably a good oil.
The VW list aside: talking to a few mechanics now and they're rather nonchalant for oil choices. Seems that whatever brand's readily available is the only choice. Used'm all, but prefer none.
Location and temp. are huge factors to performance too.


----------



## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
The people who say that if you don't use 502 oil oil you are automatically not going to be covered under warranty are correct according to the manual but not in real life. Just like adding APR software for example, you are not automatically throwing away your warranty in the real world (but according to the manual you are). It just totally depends on the individual dealers attitude. Just have documentation of your maintenance including the other required items such as checking coolant level, etc. not just changing the oil.

You know I agree with what you're point here, though its not always up to your dealer. Particularly expensive (and typically rare) failures also tend to garner attention directly from the manufacturer. They have a tendency to take a closer look at your records when a $10k motor blows than when a $50 DV tears.

_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_I think that if AMSOIL is willing to put their rep on their oil EXCEEDING the VW specs then it's probably a good oil.

It does still raise of the question of how do they know? VW (and other manufacturer's) specs are not available to the public. (In reality AMSOIL makes a great product, but they're marketing is highly suspect).


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## corradokidg60 (May 14, 2002)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickjaguar* »_https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx
AMSOIL 5W-40 is approved.. so they say.
Would that not be a major misrepresentation lawsuit if they were lying? 


It doesn't say "Approved" it says it is "formulated to exceed" the 502 spec. Big difference that lets them sneakily avoid getting sued.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (corradokidg60)*

I went on a road trip to the big city...Nanaimo.
It's a great drive...all curves.
I spoke with a garage boss for a european service station, and here's what he said:
They keep up to date with all the Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, and for that they've changed the oils they use in the shop.
LiquiMoly, Pennzoil, and now they use Blu. It's a Canadian product.
I mentioned AMSOIL and he gave it instant approval. 
I mentioned Castrol and he shook his head right away.
haha..
So I asked if he could still get LiquMoly in an he said sure. "I'll buy a drum of it an a dozen filters please"


----------



## SBAtdijetta (Mar 11, 2007)

*Re: (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_basically... yes.
505.01 is techncially a diesel spec for Pumpe-Duse injection.
Very few gasoline engines required 505.01 in the North American market (ie, Audi RS6 engine, which in europe needed 503.01, the closest oil that met that performance is 505.01)
I have used 504.00 in the past. Too expensive from topping off the (basically 1 liter per 1000 miles)....used 504.00 on 2 occasions, and the same thing.
I would stick to 5w40, as my consumption is no where near as bad.
I would be more inclined to use 505.01 (of the VW specs), for the purpose of more protection for the fuel pump cam (as Pumpe-Duse injectors were timed/actuated via camshaft)

_Modified by GT17V at 10:15 PM 6-15-2009_
 It is funny though because the NA VW PD TDI engines are exibitting cam wear issues even filled only on VW Spec 505.01 oils. This like you mentioned is the diesel spec for the PD motors with the cam driven injectors.
Ask me how I know the cams are failing...







Yes I replaced a cam after only running VW 505.01 5w40 and one change of 505.01 5w30 oil. This was at just under 40k but with a chipped and bigger turbo car. I still highly suspect the thinner 5w30 505.01 oil and the lower ZDDP levels being the culprit though.
After changing the cam I have gone to a M1 TDT 5w40 oil and adding some ZDDPlus additive to it as well. The M1 TDT 5w40 oil has produced some of the best UOA's in these PD motors and it is not VW approved but just a API diesel truck oil, it is a CJ-4 oil.
Not sure what I want to use yet in my (new to me) 2.0t maybe M1 5w40 that has sufficient ZDDP as well, now that I think about it the M1 TDT CJ-4 might also be a good choice, BUT* I would like to use a 502.00 oil at the same time, as I have not yet checked the HPFP follower and the intake cam condition on this car yet and I have 7k + 2 years and an additional 24k of CPO warranty on this car...


_Modified by SBAtdijetta at 5:47 PM 7-5-2009_


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: (SBAtdijetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SBAtdijetta* »_ It is funny though because the NA VW PD TDI engines are exibitting cam wear issues even filled only on VW Spec 505.01 oils. This like you mentioned is the diesel spec for the PD motors with the cam driven injectors.


I see many posts in the past on TDIclub. But for the warranty anal people---505.01 in 5w40 weight is probably the one I would choose for 2.0T
However, I personally went with Renewable Lubes 5w40 on my 2.0T. I have posted a VOA of it (as well as Total 504/507) on TDIclub


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (GT17V)*

GT17, Do you have a UOA on the renewable lubes 5w40 yet for the 2.0 FSI? Would love to see that.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

only for Dyson analysis.
No blackstone UOA. You cannot compare results between different companies because they are literally apples to oranges.
Proof? VOA's from Dyson, Blackstone & OAI which I have posted on TDIclub. I may have posted it on BITOG also


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (GT17V)*

Cool! can you post the dyson UOA or point to link that has the UOA? I think there is only one other renlube UOA on this engine so it would be great to add that to the database.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

that was my initial UOA, the one with the really high iron number, which was the first UOA since switching to Renewable Lubes from the various VW approved oils.


























_Modified by GT17V at 1:54 PM 7-6-2009_


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (GT17V)*

Ah I should have checked before asking. I was thinking the Biosyn UOA was Agpatel's but I couldn't remember. High Fe may well be to polar nature of biosyn removing oxidized metals. Pretty common occurrence with redline, another group V polar oil. We should know by about the 3rd UOA I would bet because by then Biosyn should have cleaned everything up and iron levels should be down, at least judging by the Rl-RS4's audi results where Biosyn has shown ultra low iron levels. Biosyn appears to be one of the most promising oils for the 2.0 FSI IMO. We just need more real world UOAs (and ideally cam follower or intake valve photos) to see how well it does.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (GT17V)*

Amazing discrepancy between labs. The Blackstone and Dyson results make sense to me because the Dyson analysis methods should show higher metal numbers than Blackstone's methods. I don't understand the oil analyzers numbers though. 12ppm iron for virgin oil?, strange. High copper makes sense because it is an additive. Very high TBN on all 3 lab reports though and strong additive pack. The antimony is anti-wear additive similar to moly I think.


_Modified by saaber2 at 12:16 PM 7-6-2009_


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

when you look at flashpoint, again you cannot compare closed cup vs open cup.


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

I never considerdd Biosyn because I cannot find the oil...is it approved by VW?


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

saaber2,
Given the potential for my wifes 2007 2.0T to gum up vlave and other areas, is there a recommendation to use a fuel cleaning additive such as Techtron?
I've used this product in the past in different cars and always use it in a full tank, run that tank nearly empty then change the oil.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (meb58)*


_Quote, originally posted by *meb58* »_saaber2,
Given the potential for my wifes 2007 2.0T to gum up vlave and other areas, is there a recommendation to use a fuel cleaning additive such as Techtron?
I've used this product in the past in different cars and always use it in a full tank, run that tank nearly empty then change the oil.

techron does nothing for the intake valve deposit issue because these motors are DI and no fuel actually gets sprayed across the valves. 
however, i still use techron to keep the injectors flowing well inside the cylinder. plus you get some extra hp due to the octane boost of the techron http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_
techron does nothing for the intake valve deposit issue because these motors are DI and no fuel actually gets sprayed across the valves. 
however, i still use techron to keep the injectors flowing well inside the cylinder. 

+1 
Btw, I have tried techron and redline sl1 and lubro-moly jectron fuel injector cleaners to clean the injectors in my car before I did the pcv bypass (hopefully I won't need to do it very often anymore now that one of the main sources of contaminants and incomplete combustion is gone). I had the best luck with the Lubro-Moly and it is only $5.39 at NAPA. It lasted longer for me than both the Techron and redline. I have used techron for years on numerous cars and I think the Lubro-moly lasts longer and seems more effective to me, but I have only used it on 2 cars so far.


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## luciano136 (Feb 3, 2009)

If you get Chevron pemium, it already has Techron in it, no? 
Also, I read that using injector cleaner is best done before you change the oil since it makes the oil acidic ? Not sure if that is true...


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (meb58)*


_Quote, originally posted by *meb58* »_I never considerdd Biosyn because I cannot find the oil...is it approved by VW?

Biosyn is not on the VW list but may be one of the best oils available for the 2.0 FSI if we were to use the audi DI V8 results as a guide. We need more UOAs to see how well it does in the 2.0 FSI compared to other oils IMO. Redline 5W40, another ester-based oil with a strong additive pack, has shown great results so far in terms of shear stability, wear (as expressed by Fe ppm which is a pretty darned poor way to evaluate wear but it is all we have), etc.











_Modified by saaber2 at 5:44 PM 7-8-2009_


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

Thanks for replies regarding fuel conditioner.
Saaber2...I went back to read a couple of links regarding oil viscosity but I cannot seem to find the thread that discusses M1 5W40...M1 make what appears to be two different 5W40; one for deisel and one labeled ESP. I believe that both of these have more shear resistance than M1 0W40.
I'm stuck on M1 because I can get it around the corner. Redline 5W40 requires a bit of a trek but my wife drives about 7,500 miles a year so the trek is once every 6 months.
So...the gummming problem is related to long oil change intervals? Way back when I owned a 1988 Jetta 16V, VW provided a service that cleaned ports and valves etc. Is this still done or even helpfull given the direct injection design?


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

ESP is for delicate emissions systems protection. These are low SAPS oils.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (meb58)*


_Quote, originally posted by *meb58* »_Thanks for replies regarding fuel conditioner.
Saaber2...I went back to read a couple of links regarding oil viscosity but I cannot seem to find the thread that discusses M1 5W40...M1 make what appears to be two different 5W40; one for deisel and one labeled ESP. I believe that both of these have more shear resistance than M1 0W40.
I'm stuck on M1 because I can get it around the corner. Redline 5W40 requires a bit of a trek but my wife drives about 7,500 miles a year so the trek is once every 6 months.
So...the gummming problem is related to long oil change intervals? Way back when I owned a 1988 Jetta 16V, VW provided a service that cleaned ports and valves etc. Is this still done or even helpfull given the direct injection design?

M1 5W40 Turbo Diesel Truck (TDT) is the one which has shown good results on both diesel and petrol cars (note there are no 2.0 FSI UOAs that I know of yet). It is a mixed fleet oil meaning you can use it in gas and diesel cars.

_Quote, originally posted by *meb58* »_So...the gummming problem is related to long oil change intervals? Way back when I owned a 1988 Jetta 16V, VW provided a service that cleaned ports and valves etc. Is this still done or even helpfull given the direct injection design?

Long oil changes and choice of oil are likely contributors to the valve deposits but we should be careful not to imply that the problems are created because of the oil. The cause is due to a DI/design problem. Using an oil with lower volatility, better shear stability/resistance to fuel dilution and good cleaning properties likely will help slow deposits but won't fix the problem IMO. Seafoaming and cleaning intakes via induction service also help to reduce deposits but are treating symptoms not the cause (that doesn't mean it's not worth doing as it all helps if one doesn't treat the cause of the problem).


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

To clarify, the problem is design related, yes? 
If so my only actions can be to change the oil frequently using a good oil, and perhaps perform seafoaming/cleaning. Okay, what is seafoaming? I'm one of those guys that is much more comfortable around suspension and brakes. I understand engines pretty well but I ususally do not touch them...when they break its pretty much game over or big $$$.
Thanks for your advice.
I did go back for 5W40 TDT yesterday.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (meb58)*

TDT is a very good oil.
Re valve deposits,
To cure the problem:
Bypass pcv to exhaust or if you are comfortable with having no vacuum to evacuate crankcase gasses you can run a down tube off the pcv or use a race catch can. Search for pcv bypass and race can threads
Bandaid solutions:
You can slow the effects with a catch can, and/or seafoaming, and/or induction cleaning service such as BG service, and/or water/meth injection, and/or using low volatility/high detergent oil
Dig around in the 2.0 FSI section in the valve deposit threads and search for dsire's post on seafoaming and other seafoam threads. All the info. should be there.


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

I use a catch can on the Mini...even with this device the IC must be removed and dipped in a bath to clean the inside. so I understand its limited use.
The TDT is for my Mini because I change the oil once a month. I will use Redline in my wifes Passat from here on.
I'll check the PVC bypass...I read a little about thisd.
EDIT - do we change the transaxle fluid in these cars as well? Our Passat has a 6spd with sport/normal and paddle shifting although not the DSG transaxle. 
Thank you!


_Modified by meb58 at 9:47 AM 7-10-2009_


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

anyone got opinions on running any of these oils in the 2.0T? 
M1 5w-30ESP 
LubroMoly 5W40
Redline 10w-40 
Pentosynth 5W40
thanks!


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (tdotA3mike)*

We have UOAs for the Pento., Lubro-Moly, and Redline (5w40, not 10w40 though). The pento and lubro appear to be very, very similar to other 502 oils based on the little data we have. These 502 oils appear to be all built similarly.
Redline of course is a different case (group V POE at least partially, strong additive pack, moly). I have spoken about it on numerous threads so won't waste time on it here. Ask Q's if you have them though. Most of those posts are about the 5w40. I would expect the 10W40 to be more shear stable than the 5w40 but we don't have any 10w40 UOAs.
We don't have UOAs on that M1 oil that I am aware of.


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

i was thinking of switching from M1 to lurbomoly and change every 5-6K KM. Redline is 13 bucks a quart up here and isn't warranty approved lubromoly is, and around 7 to 8 bucks a quart. i plan to do a UOA on the lurbomoly at 5k KM to see how its doing. I think this will be my best option. 
I know you have recommend m1 TDT 5w -40, in your opinion would that be stronger then lubromoly considering my OCI. 


_Modified by tdotA3mike at 7:55 PM 3/10/2010_


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (tdotA3mike)*

Technically you could argue that M1 TDT is also not approved. Personally I could care less about what oils are on VW's list. If you want warranty documentation, keep a log, take oil change photos, buy and return 502 oils and keep reciepts or whatever you want. I am interested in using the best oil for my car. Most all the 502 oils are very similar.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

I've got a LubroMoly 5W40 Synthoil sample in the mail to Blackstone. Expecting to see it next month sometime.
I've run this oil for around 23000km now. Doing another change this weekend.
Impressions are all positive. Engine purrs and responds quick and smooth under WOT. Turbo spool sounds nice. 
Burns 1L/ 7000km. 
Posted pix of my cam follower @ 55000km, check it in the 2.0T FSI forum.
Don't get into any hype it's a lower oil choice. My car drives great and i've yet to see or feel any sort of engine trouble. 
observation: 502 00 approval isn't necessarily the ONLY oils you can use, But for what it's worth it recommends using a wide variety of oils and some of them are really good. Some not on the list are proven winners too.
I feel it's most important to pick a good weight. I had a moment thinking thinner might be better.. but this car needs cam follower protection. Being on the list isn't necessary, just user beware. 
I'd run Redline 5W40 if it weren't $17/quart here. 
Some costs just aren't that practical. A racing team mechanic i've met (who owns a shop and mkv) uses Motul and nixed the idea of using the 300V! Uses their oils but to him some are not suitable or cost effective.
I think of it now (502 00) as a list to prove to anyone asking if they can use some basic jiffy lube cheapo oil instead.



_Modified by rickjaguar at 10:14 PM 3-11-2010_


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## rkeon (May 11, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (rickjaguar)*

Just and FYI for everyone out there you can go to your local Caterpillar Dealer any they will perform a full Oil Analysis Test for you on a sample you bring in for right around $10.00. Same deal the Blackstone products and most Cat dealers are in major Metro Areas. Just a thought...


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## RD_3 (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (rkeon)*

I emailed VWoA customer care just for the heck of it to ask if Mobil 1 5w40 TDT was in fact VW 502.00 approved or not....
edit:...it seems that it is NOT approved. Thanks alot customer care...


_Modified by -AKA- at 11:26 AM 3-16-2010_


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Technically you could argue that M1 TDT is also not approved. Personally I could care less about what oils are on VW's list. If you want warranty documentation, keep a log, take oil change photos, buy and return 502 oils and keep reciepts or whatever you want. I am interested in using the best oil for my car. Most all the 502 oils are very similar.

Couldn't have said it better myself. My cam follower punched through and I was using (and documenting) only 502 oils, at shorter than required intervals, and I still had to fight VWoA to get any relief. IMHO, once you're out of warranty, that list is almost junk.


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## jediv6 (Oct 19, 2006)

The reason that manufactures have gone to thinner oils now, is because of something called Corporate Average Fuel Economy , something like that any way. If they don`t meet a certain target each year they get finned heavily, and this target gets higher every year. So rather than the motor manufactures get hit with the heavy fines, They offset this by saying to the goverment, that our cars produce less Co2 hence they have more le-way. ie. Thinner oils less friction better fuel economy, less co2, but at the expense of protection in my opinion, Thicker oils, more friction, less fuel economy, but better protection.
So rather that the company take the hit, its you and me that does, in the form of premature engine wear. 
Thats why VW has change to 5w/30 all of a sudden, not the the cars sake but to stop them getting hit with huge fines for not meeting their emmissions quota.
just found this too:
Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) is the required average fuel economy for a vehicle manufacturer's entire fleet of passenger cars and light trucks for each model year. It applies to passenger cars and light trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 8,500 pounds or less manufactured for sale in the United States. CAFE values are obtained using the same test data generated by the fuel economy tests used to determine the fuel economy estimates for the Guide and labels, but the test results are not adjusted to account for real-world conditions. Instead, the results from the city and highway tests are combined. EPA administers the testing program which generates the fuel economy data and determines the procedures for calculating the fuel economy values for CAFE. The National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration (NHTSA), which is part of DOT, is responsible for establishing and amending the CAFE standards for trucks. Congress sets the CAFE standards for cars. EPA reports the CAFE results for each manufacturer to NHTSA annually, and NHTSA determines if the manufacturers comply with the CAFE standards and assesses penalties as required.

Also have a read of this:

http://www.smartsynthetics.com...l.htm 


_Modified by jediv6 at 4:23 AM 3-18-2010_


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (jediv6)*

Nice post JEDI!
I was told this from someone else too (as i was thinking of going to a thinner oil).
Not anymore!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jediv6 (Oct 19, 2006)

No problems, stick to your mobil 0w/40 or 5w/40 even 10w/40 in hotter climates, the thinner oil will be better in the very -18c cold climates, but using a 0w/30 oil in a hot climate, or extreme engine conditions, in my opinion these thinner oil cannot stand up to the higher tempratures than a 40 weight can, basically running your engine spiritedly with thin oils will damage it.


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## pturner67 (Dec 27, 2002)

*Re: (jediv6)*

what about Castrol Syntec 5W50? or is that too wide a range?
also, that info is suggesting that a 10w oil might be better than a 5w that VW recommends
thoughts?


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## jediv6 (Oct 19, 2006)

its not really the 1st set of numbers you should be worried about (the cold pouring rates) but the 2nd set of numbers (the viscocity at a certain heat range) the thinner oils will shear in extreme tempretures, and even evaporate instead of protecting the metal parts. In my opinion thats why some engines use oils more than others, those that burn oil should try a thicker oil to see if comsumption stops. The 5w/50 sounds like a good oil to use, but then i`ve also heard to oils that cover such a wide band not being so good either? 


_Modified by jediv6 at 2:05 AM 3-20-2010_


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## pturner67 (Dec 27, 2002)

*Re: (jediv6)*

it seems 5w50 would be as wide a range as 0w40 has...maybe I am simplifying it too much
I see that Castrol Syntec 5w40 has a flash point of 437 while Syntec 10w40 has a flash point of 450
seems 10w40 might be ok for summer and 5w40 ok for winter...I am still curious about Corporate Avewrage Fuel Economy and how it might be better for our cars to go to a thicker oil (even the 10w vs 5w)
I am changing my oil this weekend and I am going to use Syntec 10w40 to see if there is any difference in gas mileage, etc...M1 10w40 Synthetic has almost same flashpoint (447) as Syntec 10w40 but Advance is having their 5qt and a filter sale on Syntec


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## autoreign (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: oil for 2.0 TFSI*

wow... Some great info here.
Let me just add a little.
Current VW Oil specification
1) VW502 xx - 1st generation gasoline engine oil
2) VW503 xx - 2nd generation gasoline engine oil - replaced with VW 504 xx
3) VW504 xx - 3rd generation gasoline engine oil 
4) VW505 xx - 1st generation diesel engine oil 
5) VW506 xx - 2nd generation diesel engine oil - replaced with VW 507 xx
6) VW507 xx - 3rg generation diesel engine oil
Generally, 3rd generation VW specification exceed 1st generation by far. It is designed for Euro IV, V and perhaps VI VW engines. It is a specification which VW took almost 10 ten years to develop and is an improvement from ACEA A3/B4/C5 specification which VW felt inadequate. Last generation of 2.0 TFSI specify only VW504 xx. It is a low SAPS oil (low or no ZDDP, high Hyper ZDP - new tech from Lubrizol) with excellent protection in WEAR, PISTON DEPOSIT, SLUDGE, OXIDATIVE THICKENG, and SOOT THICKENING. As this oil is generally expensive (until recently), hardly any information is available from BITOG or UOA as yet. 
Known problem relating to engine oil
1) Fuel dilution - Likely leak from high pressure fuel pump seal. i do not know of any good solution for this. Perhaps HPFP from KMD (v2) and/or AutoTech. Otherwise new fuel pump; but how long will it last?
2) High oil consumption - Poor oil seperator on positive crank case ventilation system (PCV; to maintain light positive pressure in crank case, not vacumn). Remedy - external catch can such as Mann Provent 200 and allow oil to drain back to crank case.
3) High Cam follower wear - could be related to item 1) above due to its proximity, and/or wrong choice of oil. Remedy - solve 1) above and to use better great oil meeting VW504 xx specification. (I suggest VW504 xx due to its low SAPS/Ash quality which will reduce carbon deposit at intake valves and prolong catalytic converter's life).
Cheers,
Clement


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

just switched to TDT last weekend so far the car is running well http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
going to run it 6 to 7k *KM*


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (jediv6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jediv6* »_No problems, stick to your mobil 0w/40 or 5w/40 even 10w/40 in hotter climates, the thinner oil will be better in the very -18c cold climates, but using a 0w/30 oil in a hot climate, or extreme engine conditions, in my opinion these thinner oil cannot stand up to the higher tempratures than a 40 weight can, basically running your engine spiritedly with thin oils will damage it.

A 0w40, 5w40, and 10w40 will all perform the same at operating temperature, so you are not actually increasing the "weight" of the oil by switching between those three...
I completely agree that the trend to use thinner synthetics is for the sole purpose of improving fleet economy statistics. it is pretty remarkable how many of the recommended service intervals/other materials in the owners manual are influenced by consumer statistic wars between manufacturers. Recommendation are no longer geared towards informing an owner how to maximize operational longevity, but rather minimizing the cost of ownership statistic so the general public can rationalize buying their car.
I'm currently running a mix of Redline 5w40 (4 quarts) and Redline Race straight w40 (1 guart) for the ZDDP boost. Kind unhappy that my car has started consuming 1/2 quart every 5k miles now. So for my next change interval, i'll be running a mix of Redline 5w40 and their straigh w50 race oil. 
I really believe that going with a slightly heavier oil will solve most people's oil consumption issues. Sure, you will only average 25mpg instead of 27, but you intake valves and cam follower will thank you


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rhouse181)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rhouse181* »_Sure, you will only average 25mpg instead of 27, but you intake valves and cam follower will thank you

FYI I was paying attention to MPG when going from a 15.1cst oil (a thick 40 weight, almost a 50 weight) to a 11.5ish cst oil (30 weight) and there was no measurable difference in mpg. I think it may be possible to see a tiny difference (let's say .2 mpg) at lower temps during warmup but zero difference in normal use. This is also what I had heard previously from oil engineers that it is a minute difference at most.
So the CAFE standards etc. apparently are counting on minute mpg differences multiplied by millions of cars for their environmental benefits. To customers driving performance cars however, they may be hurt by running lower weights. But for the average car the lower weights with today's oils are probably fine.
Also re: zddp and the DLC, saw some interesting posts on BITOG about nissan requiring ester oils to protect their DLC-coated valvetrain. May be just part of pushing "nissan" branded oils, but it is interesting. Don't know how much ester content those oils have or what kins of esters they are using.


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

rkeon said:


> Just and FYI for everyone out there you can go to your local Caterpillar Dealer any they will perform a full Oil Analysis Test for you on a sample you bring in for right around $10.00. Same deal the Blackstone products and most Cat dealers are in major Metro Areas. Just a thought...


I work at an oil site in northern Canada, we do this onsite for all our heavy haulers (Cat 797B are beasts)

I plan on having their lab run my oil samples once I pick up my 2.0T, i'm gonna drain whatever is in it immediately after getting it home and test it , and was planning on running Motul X-cess or X-clean 5w40, or Gulf Formula G. I've had great results in my MK3/MK4 8Vs with these.


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