# 2005.5 Jetta 2.5L Timing Belt Jumped, looking at estimated $4200 repair... Could use some advice



## abgafi806 (Apr 23, 2012)

*2005.5 Jetta 2.5L Timing Chain Jumped, looking at estimated $4200 repair... Could use some advice*

I have a 2005.5 VW Jetta 2.5l 5-speed manual transmission with about 127,000 miles on it. Timing Chain jumped, possibly towing related? Or is it just a timing coincidence?

Here's what happened:
About a week ago my car got towed from my apartment complex because I forgot to put my parking pass back up in the window after I was away for a week. It was parked in 1st gear with the Handbrake up. Unfortunately my there was no way I could fight this tow since theres a stupid law in my town where if you don't have a visible parking pass in your window (even though I paid for the pass for a whole year) they're legally allowed to tow your car away. When I went to pick up my car the next morning, after paying the $130 release fee, I go to start my car and it won't start. Starter was working, battery had plenty of juice, but there was a strange clicking sound, and the engine wouldn't start up. A tech at the towing place looked at the car and originally thought there could've been an engine compression issue since the engine was seemingly turning over but not starting up. We then try a push start and still nothing... I immediately thought this must be towing related damage because the car had driving fine the day before and there was no strange sounds apparent before the towing. I called my insurance to open a claim to have them help me investigate the cause of damage, but its not looking good... 

The car was then towed to a local mechanic I trust and they've started taring down the engine, found bent valves and concluded that the damage is a Timing Chain Jump. My mechanic wrote up a rough estimate that he submitted to both the insurance adjuster and me as to what he expects this job to run, and I was quoted a ball park repair price of $3200-$4300 depending on how serious the damage is once they get the engine fully disassembled and gain access to the lower chain. 

The towing company is adamant that the car was towed from the front and they used tow dollies for the rear wheels since the handbrake was up. My insurance adjuster is not very optimistic about being able to pin the damage on the towing company, and unfortunately I didn't see how the car was towed, nor have I been successful in finding anyone who has seen the process happen. 

I'm thinking about just canceling my claim and reverting to trying to figure out a way to minimize this repair out-of-pocket. Or would calling VWoA make any sense? The car is sadly long out of factory warranty now...:banghead:

My mechanic would much rather stick to repairing this engine vs putting in a used one in, claiming the replacement parts would keep the car going longer and better than a random used engine, and how isn't worth the risk of a used engine?

I have the 2005.5 2.5l Engine, i think the BGP version, and theres a few used engines not too far from me, I heard the newer (2008+) CBU versions are a bit more reliable? Theres currently three CBU versions for sale fairly close to me:

2008 CBU with 25,590miles from a VW Golf at $1250 plus $155 shipping
2009 CBU with 34,791miles from a VW Jetta at $1150 plus $155 shipping
2009 CBU with 67,024miles from a VW Jetta at$ 900.00 plus $155 shipping

Anyone have any experience with this issue who could offer me a little help here? Should i just stick to having my current engine repaired, or would it be cheaper and make more sense to swap in a used engine? The other advantage I would see with a used engine is that they have significantly less miles on them vs my 127,000 miles.

Should I try to keep pushing the towing company or is this a lost cause? Am I better off just trying to fix my current engine or would swapping in a newer, lower milage engine be smarter? Thoughts? 

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this, I know it got a little long...


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## abgafi806 (Apr 23, 2012)

abgafi806 said:


> My mechanic wrote up a rough estimate that he submitted to both the insurance adjuster and me as to what he expects this job to run, and I was quoted a ball part repair price of $3200-$4300 depending on how serious the damage is once they get the engine fully disassembled and gain access to the lower chain.


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## Master_P (Feb 10, 2012)

abgafi806 said:


> The towing company is adamant that the car was towed from the front and they used tow dollies for the rear wheels since the handbrake was up. My insurance adjuster is not very optimistic about being able to pin the damage on the towing company, and unfortunately I didn't see how the car was towed, nor have I been successful in finding anyone who has seen the process happen.


Before I address the technical merits of your issue, there might be some value into determining how the vehicle was towed. Was your vehicle parallel parked, or backed into the parking space? If so, the tow company could have lifted the car from the front. But if you were parked head-in, then there's no way they could tow the car from the front. They would need to lift your car from the rear and drag it out of the space. If the car is in first gear, that could screw things up big time.

I work closely with the tow company who services my condo community. They have multi-angle cameras on all of their vehicles which continuously record audio and video. You may want to have your insurance company and/or an attorney ask the tow company if they keep cameras on their trucks. Our tow company added cameras to refute claims of damaged vehicles.

I also witnessed our tow driver once *drag* a rear-wheel drive truck several feet so he could install the rear wheel dolly. He did this very carefully, but knew that he was risking transmission damage. More on that in a bit. The point is that tow drivers *do* take elevated risks to get the tow.



> I'm thinking about just canceling my claim and reverting to trying to figure out a way to minimize this repair out-of-pocket. Or would calling VWoA make any sense? The car is sadly long out of factory warranty now...:banghead:


Definitely don't cancel your claim. VW corporate can't help you. This isn't a defect in the car. It's a problem with how it was towed.

I would also let your apartment community know what the tow company did to your car, and tell them they need to find another tow company to work with. Bring a copy of your repair estimate. The threat of lost business CAN work. You just have to talk to the right decision makers respectfully and persuasively. Tell them you accept responsibility for having your car towed, and that it was your fault for not putting the permit up... but that paying a tow/storage fee should be sufficient reparations. No one should have to eat a 4k cost like this. That's outrageous. You can also ask your apartment community to advocate between you and the tow company. See if they can get the tow company to release any video evidence of the tow.



> My mechanic would much rather stick to repairing this engine vs putting in a used one in, claiming the replacement parts would keep the car going longer and better than a random used engine, and how isn't worth the risk of a used engine?


Yeah... no disrespect to your mechanic but with the labor hours involved in a head rebuild, I'm sure he'd like that very much. :screwy: 

If I was in a position where the timing chain slipped a tooth, I would start by pulling the head for a visual inspection. If the bottom end of the block is solid (and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be), then installing a new head and timing components should do the trick, and would be a LOT easier and cheaper than swapping the whole block.

I would not repair the existing head. The valves were bent. The valve seals, guides, and possibly the valve seats might be compromised, and those repairs would be very involved and time consuming. Either replace the head, or replace the entire engine.

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/prod...E-CYLINDER-HE-CYLHEAD/5162229/07K103063F.html

If you check out that link, the cost of a brand new head is less than what your mechanic quotes to repair your existing head!!!

My other suggestion would be to have the mechanic do a function check on the transmission. He should manually engage each gear and twist the input shaft, then make sure the axle turns the correct number of times per gear.

Good luck!


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

If you remember where your car was parked i would check the parking spot to see if there are any drag marks in the spot and take pictures of it if there are. Like said above, they would have to drag your car out of the spot if you were nose in. with the car in first gear that would cause the engine to turn over backwards which does exactly what has happened to your engine. Destroys it, crashes all the valves because the chain tensioners do not work properly in reverse. If the car was fine before you left and had massive engine damage when you came back and the only people to move it was the tow company i have a hard time believing they can get away with claiming it is not their fault.

Good luck man.


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## KillBoxR32 (Jun 14, 2010)

Master_P said:


> Yeah... no disrespect to your mechanic but with the labor hours involved in a head rebuild, I'm sure he'd like that very much. :screwy:
> 
> If I was in a position where the timing chain slipped a tooth, I would start by pulling the head for a visual inspection. If the bottom end of the block is solid (and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be), then installing a new head and timing components should do the trick, and would be a LOT easier and cheaper than swapping the whole block.
> 
> ...



I have to agree,

you can buy a decent used head for $250-$450. 

I say you buy a used head and have it installed.

So, $250-450 plus 1000 or so for install. 

1200-1600 for total repair. Which saves about $2600.00


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## abgafi806 (Apr 23, 2012)

*UPDATE:*
Just got a call from my insurance and they are denying my claim...:banghead: They say they can't make a case for my car being improperly towed because the towing company is claiming the car was towed properly and there is no evidence beyond speculation to support otherwise, meaning there is no way to prove that the damage was caused by them. They claim that they've done some research into the matter and suspect this is an issue regarding 'wear and tear' and how timing chain problems are not something they can cover. Not sure I have any other way of proving the damage was caused by the towing, but now my options are to basically pay out of pocket and maybe talk to a lawyer to see if theres any way I could get my costs reimbursed in a small claims court...



> I would not repair the existing head. The valves were bent. The valve seals, guides, and possibly the valve seats might be compromised, and those repairs would be very involved and time consuming. Either replace the head, or replace the entire engine.
> 
> http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/produ...7K103063F.html
> 
> If you check out that link, the cost of a brand new head is less than what your mechanic quotes to repair your existing head!!!


I started looking into used cylinder heads, but in the process I've also come across some pretty cheap used 2.5l engines. 

Are all 2.5l engines compatible? Would a 2009 or even 2011 2.5l Engine work well in my 2005? I believe I have the BGP Engine now, how complicated is it to swap in a newer CBUA or CBTA engine? What all needs to be accounted for in swapping in the newer engine in place of the older version? I've tried searching for the answer but haven't had much luck...


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## JettaMk5 (Aug 11, 2008)

Swapping out the BGP for a used CBUA is totally doable, and the best bang for buck. Use your existing wiring harness, sensors, and accessories. Everything bolts right up.


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## Master_P (Feb 10, 2012)

abgafi806 said:


> I started looking into used cylinder heads, but in the process I've also come across some pretty cheap used 2.5l engines.
> 
> Are all 2.5l engines compatible? Would a 2009 or even 2011 2.5l Engine work well in my 2005? I believe I have the BGP Engine now, how complicated is it to swap in a newer CBUA or CBTA engine? What all needs to be accounted for in swapping in the newer engine in place of the older version? I've tried searching for the answer but haven't had much luck...


I'm pretty sure that I read that there were some changes introduced around 2008 with the timing chain guides. I'm unsure what other changes were made. In any event, if there's a different engine code, then there are probably substantive engine differences. You should first research those differences, and then see if your car/ECU is compatible. For example, are there different sensors that your wiring harness can't support? SWMBO's BGQ has 3 oxygen sensors since it's California emissions compliant. Your BGP engine only has two.

Different code = different engine. Gotta identify the differences first. A quick google search suggests that there are mechanical differences between the two engines. Wiring harness is different, MAP sensor replaces MAF, and the ECU is different. In other words, the differences are not trivial.

So to break it down for you...

Fastest and cheapest option - install a replacement head and timing chain components
Next quickest option at higher cost - buy a replacement BGP long block and swap
Next quickest safe option - buy a replacement BGP long block and transmission with warranty on both. Swap in both together and be done.
Next option, requiring more research - swap in a CBxA engine and/or transmission, accounting for modifications
Last option - repair/rebuild your existing head at the quote he provided.

EDIT: Looks like you can swap a CBxA engine for a BGP. This guy did it:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=348476


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## abgafi806 (Apr 23, 2012)

The shop I am currently at refuses to swap in a used engine or header claiming there is too much risk involved... seriously thinking about just pulling my car away from there and finding another shop who would be more helpful... The owner says my options are to either rebuild the current engine or junk the car, or take it somewhere else.... Not feeling very welcomed... 

Mechanic says theres at least 6-8 valves that need machining or replacing, plus machining on the head and costly + lengthy repairs...
They did send me these pictures of my engine though, maybe someone can shed some light on whats going on here? From here it appears the lower chain is working fine, but the top chain looks to have jumped and caused valve damage? I want to try and see the car in person hopefully tomorrow, but looks like maybe just the top chain needs replacing and the cylinder head? Gonna try to work with them since they already have my engine partially torn down and i already have to owe them at least for the work they've done so far... Maybe I can get a better cost of repair than the original $4200 quote...

Still think an engine swap would be the smartest for long run though? Or am I wrong? Or better yet is there any way I could DIY fix the valves and header myself? 

Sorry don't know how to make the pictures smaller...

http://imgur.com/a/BEvMZ


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## JettaMk5 (Aug 11, 2008)

You do take some risk using a used engine. I could not find a shop that would take the risk for a reasonable amount, so I did the swap in my garage over the course of a few months. There are mechanical differences inside the engine and possible differences with the number of O2 sensors etc, but if you use a full CBxA longblock and bolt up all of your manifolds, sensors, and accessories you should not have any major issues. My biggest issues were finding a crank lock pin in town (made one out of a bolt) and needing to change the bad top O2 sensor that came on the new engine after the install.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

The only complete timing chain failures i have heard of are from the engine being turned over backwards. The guides to wear out but you have a hell of a lot of notice and i have never heard of them causing a complete failure before. Your insurance company is just being lazy and don't want to put the effort in. At the very least at the end of all this i would suggest getting a new insurance provider.


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## rollingroc (Aug 19, 2006)

I think you should get in touch with your insurance company again. If I understand the facts, the car was in normal operating order and was parked. The car was towed. When you arrived at the tow yard to pick up your car it was inoperable. The car was in first gear when parked. Rolling the car backward when it is in a forward gear would turn the engine backward. If the engine is turned backward it can cause the timing chain to jump a cog. In this condition, if an attempt is made to start the car it can bend the valves. Upon inspection the mechanic found bent valves and concluded that the timing chain jumped. 

There is the legal principle called "res ipsa loquitur" which may apply to your situation. Basically, it says that the facts speak for themselves. Dictionary.law.com has a description. "(rayz ip-sah loh-quit-her) n. Latin for "the thing speaks for itself," a doctrine of law that one is presumed to be negligent if he/she/it had exclusive control of whatever caused the injury even though there is no specific evidence of an act of negligence, and without negligence the accident would not have happened. Examples: a) a load of bricks on the roof of a building being constructed by Highrise Construction Co. falls and injures Paul Pedestrian below, and Highrise is liable for Pedestrian's injury even though no one saw the load fall." 

The insurance adjuster with whom you spoke may not be familiar with this principle but, the insurance company's legal department certainly is. If the insurance company balks, asked them to have their legal department send you a letter and explain why this principle wouldn't apply and why they're rejecting your claim. If you do not get a satisfactory answer you may be able to get some assistance from whatever agency in your state regulates insurance companies. In addition your state law may have provisions to compensate customers if insurance companies are acting in bad faith. 

Which insurance company is it? 

People in certain occupations are expected to have a certain degree of expertise in that occupation. Tow truck companies are expected to know how to tow cars without damaging them in situations like this. Employees of the tow companies are expected to be properly trained. The employer is generally responsible for the negligence of employees who are operating in the ordinary course of business.

If your apartment complex has any videos you should ask to see them. You should do that ASAP as they may keep the recordings for a limited period of time and you want to preserve those if they exist. Also you should request copies of any recordings from the tow company if the tow truck was so equipped or there are videos of the car at the tow lot. They may not provide them unless required to do so as a result of legal action. In that case you should ask them to preserve all videos that show your car. (Keep in mind that damage could have occurred when the car was towed or could have occurred in the tow lot.)

Some tow companies that have contracts with places such as apartment complexes act more or less like vultures. They may hide in shadows or patrol lots. When they see an opportunity and swoop down, they want to get that car hooked up as quickly as possible and get out of there as quickly as possible. People don't like having their cars towed and some take to it, to put it mildly, less kindly than others. The tow truck drivers want to get those cars back to the tow lot as soon as possible so they can start charging storage fees. As another post indicated they don't always follow the proper towing procedure. 

Another thought. Do tenants provide license plate number when they purchase the parking pass? Maybe the tenants should ask the apartment complex managers to have the tow company call them with the license plate number before they tow a car. If the number is that it would pay to tenant the car would not be towed at that time and the tenant would be notified and given an opportunity to put the pass back in the car. 

Good luck.


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## mbryant107 (Dec 12, 2004)

*I fixed mine myself for the cost of tools, 2 bolts, and sealant.*

This happened to me on my 2005.5 Jetta with the BGP engine, also. My mechanic said it had no compression on one cylinder and low on another, but the rest were fine. That didn't make sense to me because, I would think, if the cam was out enough to bite one cylinder's valves, it would bite them all. My mechanic said I would need to find a used engine and have it put in which would end up being about $1500. My thoughts were: "What? And $1500 later, this happens again with my new engine?" BTW, these engines bite intake valves ONLY. Check this out!: http://www.import-car.com/timing-chain-failures-on-2-0l-2-5l-import-engines/
Anyways, I took it home and did a compression check myself and had good compression on all cylinders. That being the case, I hooked up my OBDII, recorded and cleared all existing codes, and waited to see which ones would re-occur as then engine idled (roughly!). I got Code P0016 which is Improper Cam/Crank Correlation. Now, the fact that I still had good compression in all cylinders meant that I hadn't bit a valve, so I decided to tear the engine apart. For this, I found the Haynes/Chilton Manual for this car completely satisfactory (even got it at the library!).
First thing to do is to buy a timing set kit. I bought this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018VD7438?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00
You NEED this! It has a bolt that screws in and LOCKS the crank at #5 TDC and a bracket that will lock your cams in the proper place as well. THIS MUST BE EXACT!
Also needed this to remove the intake manifold. There's no way around it: Tool T10107 http://www.ebay.com/itm/8541-6MM-X-...TS-/191496670313?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
You'll also need a 10 mm Triple Square Socket which I ordered at NAPA for about $8. Great for turning the crank shaft (CLOCKWISE ONLY!!!) and also needed to remove intake manifold.
Finding the TDC mark on the crank pulley is ridiculous in that it's this TINY dot which you probably won't see at all unless you remove the AC belt. When you do find it, paint it with nail polish or something else that is obvious and will stick. When you finally crank then engine around and get TDC right and lock the motor with the special tool, make a big mark on the crank pully continuing onto the bottom of the engine so you can easily see from below where TDC is. I used spray paint! This makes it so much easier to find TDC later.
Everyone always says that this happens because the tensioner goes weak. My tensioner was fine at 125,000 miles, but the problem is that there is NO tensioner between the intake cam (front one) and the intermediate sprocket. As time goes by, slack develops between these two sprockets, and then the intake cam jumps a link. Using the kit I bought on Amazon, I was able to reset the sprockets to the proper time and alleviate the slack between the intake cam sprocket and the intermediate sprocket. Now the chain is all snugged up and the car runs perfectly. 
Check out this link. Great resource: http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswa..._and_oil_pump_drive_chain_overview/page_2522/ 
One thing not covered in either the Chilton Manual or the link above was that, once you unbolt the exhaust sprocket, you'll need to pry it off. I found I couldn't get this thing back on to save my life. It was about 35 degrees F outside. Why does this matter? I'm thinking that if it was warmer, I probably wouldn't have this problem due to a lack of contraction of the metal making up the sprocket. So, I threw the sprocket in a pot of hot water, heated it a little more on the stove to where it was barely not too hot to handle, and it slid right on with room to spare! I was amazed! And don't worry about water on the sprocket. It evaporates as quick as you take it out of the water. Also, take the sprocket out to your garage in the pot of water so it stays hot until you are actually ready to install it. Make sure to get new cam sprocket bolts ($10 for both at VW). If you're going to go to all this trouble, don't compromise the job over $10! And at my OTHER mechanic's advice, I used Permatex Ultra Black to seal the timing cover (http://www.permatex.com/products-2/...l-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-detail).
One last point: I used my phone extensively to take pictures and movies and make notes as I was disassembling the car so I would know EXACTLY how everything went back together. I found these invaluable!
Good luck to you, and I hope this helps whoever else finds it.


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## mbryant107 (Dec 12, 2004)

Re-read your post. This is what I'd do:
Buy the CBUA engine with 25000 miles on it.
Prior to installation, have timing covers removed and have all slack taken out of timing chains, also check tensioners.
Once that's done, you should be good. As far as potential for catastrophic failure, this pretty much covers anything that could happen.


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## SNS1938 (Jan 13, 2014)

I too have a higher milage 2005.5 or 2006 (not actually sure which mine is). The shop that wants you to spend $3500 on a 125,000 mile Jetta ... seriously? I thought my car was worth less than $2k now (as it's 152,000 miles, head liner and other interior failing etc, KBB says over $2k, but I doubt I'd get that). I can see that the shop makes the most money doing the rebuild of your engine, as lots of labor. As for the head swap, seems that it would cost quite a bit still, and you'd still have most of the engine with high miles. I'd rather put a whole engine in that's known to work, as maybe you swap the head and there's still half a day (@ $100/hr?) of trouble shooting.

If it were me, I would:

1) Find a shop that specializes in engine replacements, ideally one that has done many mkv golf's/jetta's etc.
a) have a newer generation engine with sub 75,000 miles fitted with the updated timing chain (and at some point the 2.5's went from 150hp to 170hp) fitted if the shop says it'll work
b) have a 2005.5 engine fitted with again, sub 75,000 miles
2) As my Jetta is 152,000 miles, I was shooting for 200,000 miles before I replace it now, but a major issue like this, I'd also strongly consider walking away and putting the $3500 towards a brand new 2016 TSI GSW. I would say that without a doubt, a 125,000 mile jetta with a recent $3500 repair is worth exactly $0 more than a 125,000 mile jetta with no issues.

Bad luck all around here (unless the insurance steps back up and gets you a nice shinny new 2008 or newer engine fitted ... then it's a pretty good deal, except for the hassle.).


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## MarsPlex (Jul 3, 2013)

any updates?


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## Moon5 (Feb 25, 2015)

*Mechanic Inspection?*

I'm actually pissed off for you!

Did your mechanic look specifically at the teeth to confirm they're worn badly enough for the chain to "jump" under normal operations?

If the mechanic has the experience, he'd be able to talk with you (and others) about the most likely cause of the "jump". If you've be doing nothing more than basic city driving and you haven't done any mechanical work yourself, then I expect any experienced mechanic could rule out your driving as the cause. Unless, of course, those teeth are brutally worn down and/or the chain is faulty.


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## joshua_7373 (Jan 29, 2016)

Bump

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