# G60 CIS-E Is it possible?



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Hi all,
I have a project I have been working on and noticed a hybrid swap forum.
1.8 8V 10:1 Stock C/R married with a G60 setup, and running Bosch CIS-E with spec'd 196CC/min injectors @3 BAR.
Here is the link to the OP
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5211847-CIS-E-G-Lader

Anybody have any tips?
Currently it runs and in theory should work, but my concern is boost retard.
That area is not covered except by the knock sensor circuitry.
What would you do?
Thanks


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

compression is too high.
cis won;t work well with that and the charger.
just swap digi1 or aba stuff into it


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*C/R too high, I know*

I have left it 10:1 which is risky
What I wonder is that, paired to the recirculating design of the G-Lader, Max PSI only happens at WOT.
I had considered stacking a gasket, or the pricey B&M thick headgasket, but after studying the design of the diverter valve, I think 10:1 with high octane, Low PSI, and greater than stock F/I, it won't blow up.
I know, it is a risk, but I have read differing viewpoints on C/R theory, and I think it could work, just maybe have to do a boost retard like the guy who did the 79 turbo rabbit on CIS-Basic.
I got Lambda and knock, he did not, though he was able to keep stock C/R and work lots of power by getting timing, and AF Ratio at ~13.6:1.
I plan on using an A/F meter O2 setup, and then expand or update to a wideband.
Last resort is to update to a corrado F/I swap.
It ran in the fall, on crap gas and did not ping or blow in some preliminary runs cold.


One other thing, I have a draw through setup, I.E. CIS-E Meter is drawn up by charger suction, which accounts for M.A.P. and Volume/Mass of air (In Principle out of the Bosch F/I Handbook)



Thanks for the feedback


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

13.6 af is terrible lean for FI


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*14.7 is Lambda and is ideal*

13.6 is more rich and for F/I is bad for emissions and MPG.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

what?:sly: 
13.6AF in boost is LEAN and not good. 
you want to be under 12.5 in boost. i like 11-12 max 
if i saw 13.6 in my tirbo car i'd back off FAST because it could melt things soon.....


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I did not say 13.6 under boost. 
12.5 is what I would be aiming at. 
Along with boost retard with an older vacuum distributor or boost retard module. 
But like I said, I had it running but that was not under load or with an O2 hooked up. 
I will be careful and have the A/F meter hooked up before any extended running.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

ah ok...i was scared for you haha!


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I am considering pulling the engine and doing the bay work and some wiring remodeling. In the process of that, I would do a BBM head gasket (C/R to 9:1) and Cam swap. 
I still want to do CIS-E as I like the engineering and period look, but would consider Digi I or other updating should there be runing issues.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Update*

for the replies from "Nothing Leaves stock"

It run's (nearly) great.
Tired G Lader is pushing 5PSI 
I split it for a rebuild and its underway on my workbench.
A/F verified with Innovate Wideband 11-12 on throttle and 12.5-13.5 at idle and Decelleration.
Running Bosch W4DPO equivalent Autolight copper plugs
Oil temp ~145F
A/C working
Temp and cooling fine
No knock or pings that I can account for.
Test runs pic


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I ran CIS (modified) for years and many many miles on my Scirocco II that I build the turbo kit for in the late 80s. Logged over 90k on the turbo setup with various mods and upgrades along the way. I was putting out more HP that most of the modified G60s (my current one included). I also had to add ye old crude 5th injector, but hey it worked well. What was one to do back in the 80's? :laugh: ...other than Calloway's Microfueler

Did you get the early 2 port Dist Canister? Be careful, some had a pin which would prevent it from retarding even though it has the retard port :screwy:

Also, are you running the Audi Turbo Warm up regulator? IF not, you are going to run out of fuel quick. With that high of compression, timing retard will be your biggest issue.

My biggest concern when I read your post was the MAFS, but since you are doing a draw through, it should work fine.

All, that said, Digi is pretty darn cheap these days and has over a decade worth of advancements


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Thanks for the advice*

And great to hear of your similar build.
I am slowly getting a turbo itch, but that build will come.
I guess I am late to the party, or just old school or just trying to be different.
All the same, I have done my build with a stock CIS-E, no WUR, Stock Hall/Distributor no 5th injector (yet).
After reading up on K-Jetronic in the bosch F/I handbook, the DPR and Knock/Lambda is what I thought I would need to avoid lean and detonation, given it was setup properly. The book "supercharged" by Corki Bell was also good for theoretical insight.
So far so good, and I met someone else who was running high boost on CIS-E in a crazy fox.
He did a 5Cyl FPR and added cold start injectors and methanol spray, but he was also running much more PSI 20+ and was keeping the stock C/R like me.
I studied the G60 intake setup and made mine mirror the corrado, except I did not update to Digi- I, I wanted to prove a draw through CIS-E could run boost, and it can.
I have check the DPR current and with my wideband and analog 02 output the ECU is managing well enough.
There is a slight hesitation off the line, but that is somewhat due to the CIS-E sensor plate moving from float due to the dump pipe return.
I may delete that recirculation and see if throttle response improves.
So far though I know the knock box is working as advancing the timing to the point of pinging causes the usual retard correction. So for now I have it set stock ~5 degrees advance and let the ECU map do it's thing, until the boost raises the sensor plate and the mechanical injection takes over fueling.
My injectors are ~20% over stock flow rates, I know because I had them batch tested and I matched a set that are ~195CC/min at 3 bar.
My 02 says 10.5-11.5 under part load, give or take.
Thanks for the comments and tips and interest.
My next build will be similar but will be wilder.
I am debating a G60 built 16V 84 GTI but may go with and Eaton 16V, with the same CIS-E.
Thanks


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*G Lader Pics and Q*

Is porting worth the effort? And if so, where and how?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Off idle hesitation /miss*

I have been trying to resolve a miss off idle, it is more of an annoyance than anything else. 
Checked/replaced 

Plugs 
OEM wires 
Cap 
Rotor 
Comp ~150PSI 
Timing Ignition 
Timing Cam +/- 1 tooth on the cam and then back to 0 
A/F 
DPR 2.5ma bounce 


I have read that S/C'd cars with the T/B far from the charger can have hesitation issues due to pulse waves traveling back down to the MAP or TPS. 
Mine is CIS-E and the TPS is at the metering head, about 5' from the T/B 
Anyone have any tips on if I could parallel wire in a TPS from a ford at the T/B into my CIS-E TPS? 
I am thinking if I can get the voltage drop signal sooner I can get my throttle response back and lose the miss. 
Tip/suggestions appreciated.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Nevermind*

It runs, and runs right. 

Turned out to be clogged injectors due to ethanol gas going bad and baking itself into the pintles. 
Drove it in to work today. 
Staying out of the boost, a/c on and A/F ~14 all the way in.


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Nice, 
Congrats


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

sdezego said:


> Nice,
> Congrats


 Thanks sc2020 looks good too.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Updates*

Been continuing work on the GTI.
fiddled with the DPR and have things better than before.
Recently battling Rich at idle and lean WOT.
I cannot get a slight WOT lean delay. After about fifty tweaks to the DPR power curve adjustment I still have a brief 14.5 peak before the current drives the A/F down to ~12.
If I gradually let the DPR catch up and then hammer to WOT I get a solid 11 A/F.
I know, a video would help describe this.
But I am wondering, should I keep tweaking the DPR tune, or look into a *FMU*.
I have a feeling I need a fuel pressure rise at boost and the DPR current and fuel distributor cannot compensate for the abrupt fuel demand of 5-10 PSI sweeps.
Anyone have any tips on a decent *FMU *ratio for a car running 9:1 C/R and 5-10 PSI boost.
The CIS-E FPR can deliver the volume, just not as quickly as it is needed.
Looking for safe fuel enrichment.
Tips/Advice/Experience appreciated.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Anyone?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Happy Friday.
Thinking about what I will be trying out to continue to improve A/F conditions.
It seems I have shaken out the major issues and I am dealing with the limitations of Boosted CIS-E.

Wondered if anyone has any ideas on how to regulate the effects of boost return on A/F ratio's.
Presently, my Idle is at about 12.5:1 with part throttle rising to ~13.5:1 which then increases to ~14.5 once boost comes on and then drops to ~13:1 at 5psi and drops further to ~12:1 once I am on it at WOT and ~8PSI.
It is acceptable, but not ideal, and it seems my injectors run out of system pressure while the DPR tries to catchup with the load.
Cruising and off throttle I have a momentary drop to ~11:1 which then settles back to 12.5:1.
MPG last tank was 23.4, which is not as good as I would like, but I guess that is the cost of boost and supercharging.
I see that if I had turboed I may have had some more useable economy.


----------



## player2 (Feb 20, 2010)

perhaps a split throttle cable that lifts the air meter? no "pulsing" and without a power adder, an air filter could be connected directly to the intake. just a thought.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

nbvwfan said:


> Happy Friday.
> Thinking about what I will be trying out to continue to improve A/F conditions.
> It seems I have shaken out the major issues and I am dealing with the limitations of Boosted CIS-E.
> 
> ...


 Actually it's the price of running forced induction and CIS-E. Real (i.e. electronic) fuel injection, particularly a programmable standalone would serve you better both in terms of fuel economy AND power.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Prof315 said:


> Actually it's the price of running forced induction and CIS-E. Real (i.e. electronic) fuel injection, particularly a programmable standalone would serve you better both in terms of fuel economy AND power.


 Actually CIS-E can be economical, my initial setup draws all the air through the FPR which gives a false rich condition due to the boost return not plumbing back in to lower the sensor plate position. 
I know becasue DPR is almost always at Zero, TPS is High V, and A/F is 12.8 at idle or richer. 
I am in the process of relocating the FPR and T/B where they will get a proper Mass Air Flow rate. 

I understand I could have gone standalone, and I agree, you cannot discount updating, but that was not my end goal in this build. 
I wanted to see if CIS-E could be supercharged, to date, I have not found anyone who has done it. 
I can always plunk hours and ~$1200 and get MS or Lugtronic, but I wanted to see if it could be done, and when it can, I plan on repeating this, at a huge reduction of costs by simply a bolt up build. 
16V G60 CIS-E, 2.2 Eaton CIS-E, G60 2.1 WBX DIGI II are a couple planned. 
I have not given up yet.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

$1200 for MS??????:screwy: Even a fully prebuilt and custom configured MS3/3X with harnesses and a wideband 02 is less than that. An MS1 V3.0 kit, harness and wideband is about $500 and it will make more power and better economy than CIS-E on a forced induction motor. Don't misunderstand me CIS is a pretty cool system but it's OLD and outdated. The only time I still use it is on SCCA road racing cars where class rules require stock fuel management.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

player2 said:


> perhaps a split throttle cable that lifts the air meter? no "pulsing" and without a power adder, an air filter could be connected directly to the intake. just a thought.


 I read about this being done on some old Quattro Rally cars. the cars were pretty much WOT most of the time so the CIS Basic was kindof bypassed in favor of quicker throttle response due to a direct cable to the sensor plate. 
In my application it would probably make things erratic as the G Lader intake would be limiting the Air to lift ratio.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Prof315 said:


> $1200 for MS??????:screwy: Even a fully prebuilt and custom configured MS3/3X with harnesses and a wideband 02 is less than that. An MS1 V3.0 kit, harness and wideband is about $500 and it will make more power and better economy than CIS-E on a forced induction motor. Don't misunderstand me CIS is a pretty cool system but it's OLD and outdated. The only time I still use it is on SCCA road racing cars where class rules require stock fuel management.


 Not :screwy:, 
I'm not well informed enough to scifer what MS system I should use. The lack of package configuartions makes it challenging to know what you need. 
I have looked at it and had incorrectly assumed that tuning of CIS-E would be less than the time/money of wiring in a standalone. I also had emissions I was concerned with. 
Frankly I like CIS, and wanted to explore it's possibilities (Like the Callaway kits did). Seeing I have not found anyone to say what CIS-E has pushed on supercharging, I challenge the notion that it is inferior to standalone. Show me ic: Apples to Oranges, I know. If I wanted the most power with the least amount of work, I would pay someone for it, and this seems to be the case of some on the vortex. With enough time maybe I will end up being one of those outfits, that support the buy vs built industry, but one cannot buy the experience. 
Thanks for caring to share


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'd have to go do some serious digging for the dyno sheets but if you want an example here you go: 

SCCA H Production 1980 Scirroco 1.6L 8V, 11.5 to1, BIG custom camshaft, carefully ported and flowbenched head, CIS with an Aeromotive 2 port pressure regulator in place of the warm up regulator so we could "tune" the fuel curve, 13.0 AFR at WOT. Our best pulls made 129 whp and 115 wtq. In a typical 40 minute race we used 6 gallons of 110 octane leaded race fuel. 

Same car same motor on MS2 using 24lb/hr injectors and waste spark ignition. Best dyno pulls (on the same dyno) were 135whp and 118 wtq but AVERAGE hp and torque were up 12hp an 15 ftlbs respectively while fuel economy improved to 4.5 gallons of the same 110 in a 40 minute race. And oh yeah lap times dropped 2-3 seconds. 

Being able to tune and optimize fueling and timing across the entire operating range of an engine will always result in more power and better economy and it simply can not be done with CIS.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

6hp and 3Lb is a good bump but considering the margins it does not prove 
_"and it simply can not be done with CIS"_ 
And that was N/A. 
I am not trying to dispute your knowledge, my point is I believe CIS (Basic, Lambda, and -E) were very capable setups. 

My goal is to match or Better Digi I with CIS-E built to the proper configuring of the current system. 
I am after the same basic numbers that a stock corrado had and then go from there, end goal 200HP and 200 FtLbs at the crank. 
I am sure that if I went with MS or Lugtronic my numbers and driveability would be much improved, but I would be ditching all the parts and time I spent learning to tune and modify CIS-E. 
So far, with my setup being a pull charge system (FPR ahead of the charger) I am pretty sure I am getting ~140WHP and ~24MPG @5-8 PSI, not bad, but not great either.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

You missed the main point. While it is possible with just about ANY type of fuel control system ( carbs, CIS, EFI) to get the most PEAK hp and tq out of a motor we saw a significant increase in AVERAGE hp and tq and that's what matters in the end as proved by our much improved lap times and fuel economy. 

And as far as the motor being N/A vs FI, being able to precicely tune the whole fuel and timing curves becomes even more important with FI.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I did not miss the point, I am viewing it from a different angle. 
I agree that standalone or "updating" will improve performance and economy, but I did not want to spend the time or money on going that route. There was a lot of engineering that went into CIS-E and I wanted to detirmine how much I could exploit it. 
I beleive I have proven the concept, and now will pursue optimizing by relocating items. this from reading Corky Bell's books and seeing some shortcomings of a draw through CIS-E setup. 
Once it is done, I may infact go with Lugtronic for my 16V build. I like the simplicity of waste spark and electronic fueling on F/I. It would not take a lot of add ons, just the standalone ECU, a wideband, fuel rail, MAF, TPS, CPS, Coilpack ect, and it certainly would remove a lot of the 80's CIS-E clutter.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

nbvwfan said:


> I did not miss the point, I am viewing it from a different angle.
> I agree that standalone or "updating" will improve performance and economy, but I did not want to spend the time or money on going that route. There was a lot of engineering that went into CIS-E and I wanted to detirmine how much I could exploit it.
> I beleive I have proven the concept, and now will pursue optimizing by relocating items. this from reading Corky Bell's books and seeing some shortcomings of a draw through CIS-E setup.
> Once it is done, I may infact go with Lugtronic for my 16V build. I like the simplicity of waste spark and electronic fueling on F/I. It would not take a lot of add ons, just the standalone ECU, a wideband, fuel rail, MAF, TPS, CPS, Coilpack ect, and it certainly would remove a lot of the 80's CIS-E clutter.


 Just one question.... the fuel curve on a CIS system is based largely on the size of the orifice in the fuel distributor. That and the pressure applied against the air door which determines how quickly you reach the max amout of fuel delivered. FI motors need LOTS more fuel than NA so how are you going to get there with a system designed for an NA motor?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Prof315 said:


> Just one question.... the fuel curve on a CIS system is based largely on the size of the orifice in the fuel distributor. That and the pressure applied against the air door which determines how quickly you reach the max amout of fuel delivered. FI motors need LOTS more fuel than NA so how are you going to get there with a system designed for an NA motor?


 The operating margin of a 1.8 Metering head is capable of delivering more fuel than a 1.8 8V N/A would ever need. Every good design incorporates a factor of (safety). The metering head is capable of delivering within the margins of mild/modestF/I. Additionally, and as I read in Probst book on Bosch systems, CIS-E uses the DPR which decreases/increases upper and lower chamber pressure, thus allowing more sensor plate lift, higher fuel pressure at the orifice, delivering more fuel. Coupled with a MFU, or even a stock FPR tied to MAP, you get more than suitable fuel management. 
CIS Basic and CIS Lambda used the WUR and Frequency valve, but at the core is a metering head that has an amplitude of lift and fuel delivery that is within safe limits. Even in my pull through setup that lifts the sensor too much, I have seen A/F as low as 9:1 from the stock FPR. 
The answer is not always, put bigger __'s on it. Sometimes, its tune it for the application.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

And I have been driving it like this for several weeks, I am actually trying to get less fuel at idle and mid throttle.


----------



## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

I like the way you think nbvwfan. :thumbup:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> I like the way you think nbvwfan. :thumbup:


Thanks for the :thumbup:
I have been chipping away at the F/I relocation components.
I have an airbox delete almost finished to put the FPR after the intercooler. My TIG welding is pretty rough but I have been watching and reading up on techniques (weldingtipsandtricks.com) and practicing these and it has greatly improved.
Last night I roughed a T/B exit plenum which will allow me to move it just after the G60 with the dump pipe exiting to atmosphere. Plan on deleting the silencer and boost return pipe. This should clean up the bay as well.
I am hoping to have this pretty close by end of the weekend. But I have to pickup my sons recently bought 83 GTI which we will be starting soon.
He will eventually end up with a G Lader, but he wil have to get some seat time before I help him boost his first car.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

And when the above is plumbed and done, I plan on running a 68MM then starting my eaton 16V CIS-E motor build, and/or boosting my vanagon WBX


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

nbvwfan said:


> And I have been driving it like this for several weeks, I am actually trying to get less fuel at idle and mid throttle.


Exactly.... the mechanical fuel curve built into the fuel distributor is not optimized for FI


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks captain obvious. 
Which is why I am moving the components so that false air (dumped air) is not measured.
I think I know a bit of the theory, and my aim is to develop the system that has not been done rather than buy to build. 
No need to point out the issue, I have been dealing with it for several weeks, and I anticipated this from reading books from Probst and Bell on bosch and Fixed displacement chargers. There is a way around it, and now I have to fabricate the solution.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Don't get me wrong.... Trying to do sh!t that people say can't be done is fun. Everbody said that you couldn't build an ABA based 20/20 without custom pistons. I proved them wrong and built one with a stock ABA bottom end. But CIS-E?????? decent parts are tough to come by anymore, some stuff you CAN'T get new, VW systems were never meant for FI.... It just doesn't make sense to me to put so much effort into it when cheap readily available alternatives *that work better* are out there.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I'm not disagreeing. I like doing things a that have not been tried, not because of a "re-invent the wheel" mentality, but more a "look at what could be done" viewpoint.
I have a ton of CIS(-E) parts, I have accumulated over time. Interestingly the system is not all that complex and pretty reliable, it was plagued though with people that messed with it when it was not needed and gave them "Tinkeritus"
Funny with this build is no one has said it cannot be done, the majority have said either cool or don't do it. If it blows up or reaches it's design limits, I can always buy and build what everyone else does. That though, was never my end intention. If I go MS or Digi, then I wil be doing what everyone else does, and selling this project short.
There is a time for convention, and there is a time for innovation and doing it becasue no one has.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Anyone have any experience mouting the T/B just beyond the charger outlet? 
I am moving mine from the intake manifold about 2.5' back just ahead of the intercooler. 
Wondered if that might induce a lag like on a turbo setup due to a larger cavity drawing vaccuum. 
This is all being done to move the dump pipe before the FPR and since its a corrado T/B it is integrated into one unit. 
I am considering a vaccuum acuated BOV and a VR6 T/B but I wanted to try this first, due to reading that a single T/B might affect idle quality. 
The Corrado T/B is cumbersome to mount just floating over the radiator fan, but I will make it work. 
Once I continue the mockup I will post some pictures.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*9-25-2012 Updates*

Been making some progress while I have it torn down. Either waiting for Filler to cure or Welds to cool. 
My re-route and 2.5" I/C piping is almost done, though not that pretty. 
I am looking forward to some significant tuning gains and some nice Tornado/Mars Red pop. 



















http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa477/nbvwfan/CIS- G60 GTI/2012-09-25_23-57-32_891.jpg


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*9-27-2012 Update*

Got some more piping mounted and T/B in place. Everything is starting to fit and come together.
It's all 2.5" piping and T-Bar clamps so I should not have any leaks or losses due to the OEM corrado plumbing.
I have yet to graft a home made RSR to the T/B but I have the materials and have to just layout the cone in sheetmetal and do some welding. I am hoping to fininsh the plumbing this weekend and fire it up, but will have to do some wiring tidying and extensions but that is not nearly as challenging as the plumbing and FPR and T/B relocating.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*10-1-2012 Updates.*

:thumbup: 
I should change this thread to, the project no one cares to reply to..
Either because there is no interest, it is not believed do-able, or it has never been done and is not c onsidered mainstream.
Anyway,
Here is the progress for this weekend.
I finished fabricating all the plumbing. All the silver was done TIG and in garage.
I have to make an air filter mount and hump interface, lengthen two fuel lines, extend three connectors, and I am ready to fire this up by the weekend.

Enjoy.

Home made RSR



















T/B close up and dump pipe










Overall System plumbed and F/I lines routed










Clearer Near finished pic











:thumbup:?:thumbdown:??:what:? ic:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*No one seems to be looking at this, update 10-3-2012*

10-03-2012 Updates
Everything is done except for lengthening the ISV, TPS, and T/B connector and the Crankcase to G60 breather.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I extended the connectors and made a block off plate and Crankcase breather to charger.
It started right up.
BUT, I need to make an aluminum version of the "snake head".
Apparently it does not work at 30 in of vaccuum.
I suspected this would be the case.
More fabricating tonight, hoping it is the last of it for this conversion.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Just talked thermodynamics and Fluid Dynamics with a fellow engineer.
I think a new "cobra head" will resolve the rough running and lean/rich A/F.

The formula to base this on is P1V1=P2V2.
So the force of the sensor plate will measure the force of the pressurized air stream even if its occupying the same volume while flowing through the FPR.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*10-07-2012 Update*

Replaced the snakehead and the lower intercooler rubber transition with aluminum. Clearance is tighter than I like. The car starts and runs and I see boost as the FPR rises up and down relative to pressure. It surges though and then stalls once off the gas. A/F is better responding as I had hoped (FPR after G60), but the location of the T/B so far upstream of the intake manifold induces a pressure wave that the FPR cannot readily respond to.
I am going to have to relocate the T/B back to the intake manifold and work out a pre FPR bypass or dump valve. Will dig through my parts to find a N/A 8V T/B and just pull the corrado version.

Messed around with making steel flares. Did not like 3" so I trimmed it down to 2". Still too much flare so I may trim it to 1". If it still looks to flared I will just ditch the idea. 
Pictures if anyone is watching or cares... I thought there would be more interest in an outside the box build.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*No Pic Update*

Been debating what I can do to get the A/F and idle resolved.
Last night I went back to the Corrado T/B at manifold and got it to start, run, and idle fine, but A/F is way rich at ~9.5:1 pretty much all the time.
I took out the DPR and did a reverse power tune (~1 turn CCW) and it only leaned it out ~1 point. Idle screw is CCW to stop, still too rich.
I am waiting on a BOV that I can run pre intercooler, thus eliminating the excess air going through the metering head. I am hoping this fixes things. If not I can alway run the BOV as a bypass return or plumb the T/B dump back to the G60. But that would probably put me right back to where I was when I started; a 12.5:1 A/F at idle and a lean spot, then ~12:1 at WOT. I am thinking about the DPR and if one off an Audi or Volvo turbo might have more +/- Mah bandwidth. But this is all speculaltion on technology that is about 15 years beyond the realm of performance tuning enthusiasts.
I could always go standalone, but I am not there yet.
More after the weekend.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Pre weekend update*

I got a couple BOV's in and threw them both on last night. One was junk, but after my Ebay bucks it was only $8 so it was fun hoping. The other cost a bit more and is an alternate for the 1.8T diaphram BOV that goes bad.
Plumbed in it worked but I had to crank it all the way loose to get it venting at idle.
It is loud and it seems to not have the flow to vent to ~10-15in of vaccuum, but a ~1 PSI positive load on the G Lader might not be too taxing.
I plan on refining the setup some tonight.
I threw a 8V T/B on and managed to clock the throttle cable to ~120 dgrees from stock so I can run the cable without binding. Once I have my 2.5" to 3" reducer hooked up I should have more to work with.
Considering throwing on my spare DPR's to batch run and see if I have one with more +/-mah bandwidth to affect A/F tuning. I plan to also look at the counterweight and see if the alignment screw also can shift the CG of the sensor plate :sly:
Sealing the aluminum snakehead and getting organized and methodical is the plan along with all this over the weekend.
If I get frustrated, maybe I will step back and make some steel flares while I think of next steps.
No one commented, but should I fabricate some ~1.5 flares all around and ditch/sell the plastic flares?
I was hoping for comments on the look. I plan on 25mm spacers and eventually some wider rims, but I want the power to justify it first.


----------



## player2 (Feb 20, 2010)

if you could find a larger diameter air meter, it should help to lean it out at idle. mercedes, maybe? the angle on the sides of the cone of the air meter (where the meter plate lifts into) have a lot to do with the fuel curve. 

to reinforce your decision... my cis-e jetta is more powerful than any digifant car i've had.


----------



## player2 (Feb 20, 2010)

there's also this--> http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/V005/POR_V005_FULful_pg4.htm
might be useless, but still kinda neat


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks for the reply.
And I agree the shape of the FPR cone has a dramatic impact on off idle A/F.
I toyed with throwing a Rabbit GTI (CIS basic) on as a test, but then I would lose lambda and the DPR.
I almost bought a Mercedes downdraft unit, but I decided not to due to the cost and alread being about halfway through the fuel relocating work.
I made some significant progress this weekend and got at idle A/F to a tunable state. I can tweak the DPR and mixture screw anywhere from 15:1 down to 12:1. My off idle response is a bit choppy and WOT is lean, but I think that has most to do with clogged injectors (AGAIN ).
I bought 8 brass Mercedes injectors and will be trying them out.
Throwing on Basic injectors, tended to richen it up too much at idle, probably from lower crack open pressure from softer pintle springs.

I will post some pictures and a more structured update later on.

But I think CIS has more potential than Digi, primarily due to higher system fuel pressure overall.
I was just looking at my bosch handbook, Digi ~35 PSI, CIS ~70 PSI. Marry that to a flow meter that can deliver more volume through ~190cc/min injectors @3bar and you end up with more power. I agree with you. Interestingly, I read in this book CIS was a parallel platform when DIGI was out on the market. I am certain Bosch went DIGI in the end due to lower cost of total parts and servicing. Happy but disappointing compromise from an engineering standpoint..


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*10-15-2012 Weekend update*

I made up a post charger, pre-FPR dump pipe and fitted both BOV's. 
Next was a tweak of the DPR and I found an oring for the vanagon waterpump that fit the groove of the FPR flowmeter flange. I managed to wedge my intake hood over that.
It started up after a few tries and ran as I had hope. Throttle response is very quick, it stumbes at mid to WOT, but I think that is due to clogged injector pintles.
I shifted gear and decided to finish the body work and prep it for sealer.Below are pic's from teh weekend.
Dual BOV's










Before








After








Body shots
Before








After








Before








After


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

have you considered swapping from CIS-E to CIS-L so you can use the volvo 240turbo fuel dizzy?

the VW units are limited to 160hp or so..

the FUEL DIZZY is the restriction, not the injectors or the pump or lines or anything else..

the actual fuel distributor is the restriction..

Volvo units are good for 220hp or so.. (ive been told)

in my setup, im using an Audi 5000 turbo WUR, a Volvo 240T fuel dizzy, and the rest is stock VW..


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I guess I am not at ~220HP yet. My primary reason for the FPR F/I relocation was due to poor economy, not lack of fuel dilivery.
And I am trying to utlize CIS-E. If I went CIS basic things would be simpler and I could go 240 Dizzy and WUR. But I still did not find anyone that did this in a supercharged application. Further, the G60 is unique in that it pumps at low RPM like a twin screw (fixed displacement), but has some qualities of a roots (elevated boost with RPM increase). Problem is Roots like the T/B ahead of the charger. VW designed it after and recirculation after the fact as well. This was a compromise in economy, noise, and lifecycle. Ideally they should have run hard pipe throughout with the T/B ahead of the G Lader and a recirculation valve to span the gap for excess boost return but this would have changed the layout and cost of the design and they chose otherwise. It would have been cool to see it continued and improved and added to other platforms (vanagon), but sadly they turned a corner and dropped it.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Started wet sanding.
Started at the worst orange peel on the car. 1500, then 2000, then 2500.
Then compound (gently) with my DA, and then Wolfgang swirl remover.
Also started the hood.

Before










After (WIP)










Before










After (WIP)










I realized I need to go easier on the sanding pressure. I also need to get my compound then polish process sorted out. But it was late and I wanted to see how it would improve and how much the bugs and nibs would still show after blocking it.
I think it should make the 6 of 10 clear to about an 8 of 10 final finish. I can always respray the clear.
I have enjoyed telling the kids "no, its not still wet". They have enjoyed seeing shiny red on the 26 year old car that has been in garage for almost two years.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*10-31-2012 Updates*

Managed to get a little more done in spite of the storm that blew through and knocked out power.
Wired/Plumbed in the Hobb Switch to WOT. Dressed, wrapped and tucked all the wires in the bay. Routed the injector lines and clocked the FPR. Started it up again and have some tuning to try to do. Still have a stumble at half to WOT. Need to feed in a 5V 20Mah signal to the DPR to get it corrected. 
Sanded the hood and roof with Trizact 3000 grit. Experimented with compounds until I found one that seemed to work well enough. Muguires 105 is a little to agressive, so I finished with 205 and a soft foam pad on my polisher. did some hand sanding in the fender and door, still in process.
See the pictures and comment if you like.


Roof sanded 









Roof compounded









Hood and roof partial compounded with 205











Bay wiring


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

nbvwfan said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> *And I agree the shape of the FPR cone has a dramatic impact on off idle A/F.
> I toyed with throwing a Rabbit GTI (CIS basic) on as a test, but then I would lose lambda and the DPR.*
> I almost bought a Mercedes downdraft unit, but I decided not to due to the cost and alread being about halfway through the fuel relocating work.
> ...


FPR is fuel pressure regulator.. sounds like thats what you are calling your fuel distributor?

most Rabbit GTIs had CIS-Lambda, FWIW..

ive said it before, and ill say it again..

why are you against running CIS-Lambda out of a volvo 240 turbo, and an audi 5k turbo warm up regulator?

it would be a CIS fuel system BUILT FOR BOOSTED APPS..

and why are you blowing thru your fuel dizzy, rather than drawing thru it?

and why do you have the boost return valve AFTER the sensor plate? any ime your diverter/bov opens, it makes the metering plate lift, and the fuel dizzy to go pig rich..


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Glegor said:


> FPR is fuel pressure regulator.. sounds like thats what you are calling your fuel distributor?
> 
> most Rabbit GTIs had CIS-Lambda, FWIW..
> 
> ...


I keep calling it FPR, becaue that is what it does. I know I am referring to it wrong.
I have the Fuel meter in a blow through setup becasue I tried the draw through already.
I know I could use CIS-Lambda, or a Basic setup, but then I would have to swap ECU's and loose out on all the stock components and it would not work with a fixed displacement cherger setup. That is where this is different than a boost on turbo setup.
I have dropped the corrao T/B and gone 8V T/B with dump via two BOVs pre Fuel Meter , it does not run pig rich anymore. Now I need WOT enrichment. And I cannot just plumb in a WUR as the return and *FPR* are different than on the 240 or 5000 CIS-L or Basic setup.
That is why I am still doing it this way.
My goal is to use my Hobb switch run to a 12V to 5V converter to send a 20Mah signal to the DPR.
That will act just like the lambda valve/WUR on the callaway microfueler kits that were done for basic turbo's
Once I can get WOT/Boost enrichment on the stock injectors, I am putting on some miles and dropping in a 68MM pully.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*And..*

Further, I have read in several texts that the CIS-E (silver) metering heads flow more than the CIS Basic (black) units. And altering the DPR to switch on demand instead of affecting system pressure down stream via the Lambda valve and WUR in my initial view was a more primitive apprach that was done before the upper/lower chamber DPR modulation.

11-1-2012 Update.
I wired up an simple circuit last night. 4 AA batteries (6V, ~15Mah) with a pushbutton plumbed to the test ports on my DPR harness. Witht he car running I had A/F bouncing ~14:1, cracking the throttle I would see it drop momentarily to ~12:1 then surge to ~15:1. Witht he wired in switch and hitting the button, the A/F dropped immediately to ~10:1 and stayed under 11:1 all the way WOT to redline.
I have sucessfully figured a way to patch in load enrichment to CIS-E and the DPR. I made this into an "OR" circuit to hook to a pushbutton and the Hobbs switch and will have a two color LED to indicate when the switch is closed ont the hobbs. When this is reliable I plan on swapping the battery pack for a MAP sensor, but the one I bought was ebay junk.


----------



## redGTInj (Jul 6, 2003)

i skimmed thru this thread at work, but have u checked what the DPR value is using the test harness? and also have you tried "TUNING" the DPR itself?? not the 3mm allen for airflow plate height, the actual DPR itself...it will greatly improve fueling uptop

cool thread :thumbup:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks for the reply.
And Yes, I found the DIY on power tuning the DPR.
I gathered all of my DPRs in case I messed my current one up.
I have taken mine out about 50 times now and tweaked it CW and CCW to alter the A/F curve, all while reving and watching my wideband output.
I tuned it to bounce at 5Mah and tuned it to bounce rich (0+mah) and tried leaning at the mixture crew.
It has all be a lot of multi-component fiddling as each has an impact on the other (DPR,TPS, and Mixture screw). I have ended up with an external signal to overide the ECU signal when I have known boost. It works but I think I have clogged injectors due to ethenol wax sediment build in the injector pintle screens. I plan on getting a set of new injectors to rule out the components and see if I can dial in a better fuel curve.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*11-06-2012 update*

Wetsanding done
Compounding done
As it sat Sunday


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

No picture updates.
Worked on the miss and stumble.
Went in circles, but I think I found the issue. My fuel meter is not supplying equal volume of fuel, I have three ports flowing 625-650 ml in 3 minutes at full bore and one port flowing 550ml, this is outside of the standard deviation of the 10% per injector volume tests. 
I had thought it was the injetors, it is not, good thing is, out of 12, I have about 10 known good injectors. Bad thing is I will have to split the fuel meter apart and find the one slit that has ethanol crud build up.
Not happy about that but at least I have detirmined the cause of the inconsistent A/F ratio.
More updates later.

Sanding/refinishing quantum snowflakes, toss up between going Alpine white for the relief pattern or Tornado red. Anybody have an opinion on painting this color scheme instead the OEM (carbonite) black?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

More and more circles.
Pulled the inectors again volume tested, and tweaked the fuel distributor individual ports to flow the injectors to ~8% SD and ~10% variance.
Thought that would solve it all. It did not, I continue have pretty heavy overfueling. Messed more with the signal to the DPR, that only made it richer, got as low as 8.5:1 Probed the wiring more and found the O2 wire I tucked was not sending the ECU any variable voltage. Fixed that, and it still overfuels ~11:1.
Pulled the DPR about 5 times adjusting it to leaner. Tried a DPR from a 09A. Bought a 3 bAR MAP sensor, wired it in like my Hobbs circuit and 100ma signal, thinking it would smooth out the stumble, it seems to, but the Fuel distributor is just not designed to move relative to volume under boost.
Maybe another day will uncover something I have not tried.
about ready to pull it all out and buy a lugtronic. Not what I wanted to end up doing, but I beleive I am pretty close to saying CIS-E cannot run supercharged. Not drawthrough, not blowthru, not hybrid.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

More efforts to troubleshoot and tune out the off idle stumble under load.
It is better but not right.
In case anyone cares to know, I found some ways to adjust the meter of the fuel distributor. 
The DPR can be adjusted to effect upper and lower chamber flow. And while the fuel distributor individual ports can be backed out (to richen), after opening one of my spare distributors up I found that they equalize each other by cross ports, so this tune is probably moot except to adjust/calibrate out a bad line or partially clogged plunger slit.
For the DPR, I found after 12 iterations starting with 1/2 turn from bottoming out, I got mine to run ~12:1 at WOT under boost and only leaning to about 13:1 at as high as 10 PSI. I have left it there for now. I set the plunger to meter distance to 19mm according to the tip in the VW watercooled performance handbook (good book BTW). This helped an off idle enrichment condition.
I pulled some injectors from my quantum Syncro and soaked them overnight in MEK. I spray tested them and installed them with air shrouds and ran the airshroud feed line just after the intercooler. I had to adjust the idle air screw to get it to not race, but the air shrouds seemed to help.
I pulled these injectors and volume tested them to rule out a low flowing port or injector. All were better than I have had since last post. At full bore fuel pressure, I measure 640cc,630cc,625cc, and 630cc in 3 minutes. This seems to rule the fuel distributor delivery, volume flow rate, and spray pattern as cause of the issue.
I pulled the distributor which was new a month ago, all the contacts were carboned. I thought I had found the issue. After cleaning I took it out, still no significant change.
I am pretty stumped. I am tired of trying to eliminate this issue. I thought I could wire in a MAP signal, but I cannot seem to find a tap that it would be useful. I tried tandeming it to the DPR, then TPS, then CTS. For the first and thrid it worked but did not eliminate the stumble. I am beginning to think maybe the Hall signal is partly to blame.
Pulled the distributor and the red wire was retreating into the inside rotor assembly. It cracked when I was pulling it out so I am JB welding and looking for a new one to swap in later this week.
Anyone know if I can wire in a MAP signal into the ECU to effect the A/F and DPR maps, or am I just pioneering something no one has tried nor cares about.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Got a new Distributor and put it in, though it was from MPGAUTO.com and I had to index it 90 degrees before I got the car running. It did not improve anything, in fact, the shaft was bent, and on my test drive I had to turn around due to distributor timing walk. I could hardly believe it, but in about a 1/4 mile it would go from advanced to full retard and would bog to a crawl. 
I pulled it, asked for and RMA, and learned my lesson. My old one went back in and works just fine. 
Sunday, after I had pulled my QSW fuel distributor I started fabricating another air plenum to make the system draw through once again. 
Hated the idea of it having to go pretty much back to where I was in September, but I have exhausted the iterations of a blow through design. I have determined the FD cannot reliably measure volume while under negative to positive pressure changes, it seems the pressure head causes spikes in the metering from sensor plate flutter. I will be sticking with the things that worked though, Dual BOV's and MK2 T/B. 

I know, everyone will chime in now and say I told you so, but I can say to them, I showed you so.. 
Pics of the plenum and FD


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*More updates and thoughts*

Did some more work last night on the draw thru airbox. 
Cutout the window for the quantum FD and line drilled for the bolt pattern. Welded in some bosses to mount it. Mocked up fitting and will be much more room to work with than the last setup. 
Toying with the arrangement for the air filter. I am planning on tucking it inside the fender and frame rail area. It will be a good cold air setup, only drawback will be filter cleaning will require removing the fender liner. 

Was thinking (second guessing) on the way to work today. I have my stock ECU plumbed to the intake manifold. Contemplating if my off idle stumble is due to K Jet not knowing what to do with boost, or actually if it goes to retard when above Atmospheric (14.6PSI). This might be why I could never get it revving right at mid to WOT, and it rarely went to redline on WOT. The engine ignition was/is getting lost and firing way late. I plan on trying a one way vacuum adapter (the little blue ones) plumbed such that the ECU will only see full vacuum to atmospheric pressure. 
Maybe that will fix my blow thru issues. 

Here are a couple pic's from last nights effort. 




























And one of the snowflakes I am trying to restore.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks to Nothing Leaves Stock for the tips and the Haltech Fuel Management hookup. 
Looking forward to finally getting this thing running right. 
Look for updates on the continued fabrication and progress this weekend when I plumb in the 5 Cylinder Fuel Distributor.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*12-10-2012 Updates*

Slow but steady progress on the 5 Cylinder FD work.
I made up a "Turtle Shell" to plumb into the G60.
Also grafted in the K&N filter to the underside of the air box.
Not very happy about in-fender placement and possible water spray from behind the small bumpers, but planning to make a surround that will force air in from the top under the frame rail.
Had to neck the filter inlet from 3.5" down to 2.5". Not sure if this will introduce that much of a flow restriction seeing the G60 will be drawing it in under pressure. We will see.
Next up will be to weld on some snap tab arrangement and then de-extend the fuel and electrical lines.
Hoping to get the couple boost tubes this week so I can finish it up and test this weekend.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I was going to do some fabrication work last night but did not in order to pull my FD and flow test a 16V 2.0 FD for another member to ship him and get his ride back on the road.
Planning to get going tonight on a pull and re-run of the extended fuel lines and DPR and TPS loom extensions and get to a flow test of the QSW fuel distributor to check volume is within OEM specifications.
Hopefully then I can start on mocking up an new intercooler to T/B pipe with bung for a 5th Digifant injector run from my Haltech F5 piggyback F/I unit.

Will post pictures after the weekend.
Anyone have a tired G60 you want to get rid of?
I am looking for another for an upcoming project.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*one pic update*

One shot
Got the main I/C to T/B fabricated.
Have to add the ISV port, and a 5th injector bung, but the hard sizing work is done.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Awesome project. Glad to see the fpr going in front of the charger. Why not do a closed-loop relief valve, venting the relief port to between the fpr and charger inlet?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Pat,
if you go to the MK2 forum I have a nearly identical thread. But to clarify, I did originally have the FPR ahead of the charger "draw through". I was originally going on the theory of draw through hoping the meter could measure volume and mass of the incoming air. It did that well, and this was similar to the old Callaway setups. Problem I had was over fueling due to the charger sucking the air plate too much and when not under load (false air).
I then when about a massive relocation of all the components to try a blow through setup. The idea was to see if the FPR could measure volume, mass, and system pressure. I put it in line and after the T/B, like the fixed displacement charger principles. I learned the FPR does not respond well to being "in system". Also with the T/B being so far upstream I had surging and intake plumbing collapsing under vacuum. I went about correcting these by fabricating a new snake head. This helped but I still had surging. So I moved the T/B back to the original location. Surging went away, but I then got a stumble at mid throttle and intermittent lean A/F. I did a bunch of iterative tests and found (I think) that I was having sensor plate flutter due to the meter not having any idea of relative pressure.
I installed a MAP, and tied it in to signal the DPR. I could not get repeatable tunable results, and my stumble never went away.
After, I don't know, three weekends or so or tweaking, I determined that blow through "sucked" and decided to go back to the original setup, but with some now known updates to make into a revised setup.
I pulled my QSW's fuel distributor and went about a new draw through setup.
I picked up a Haltech F5, 5th injector setup (which I will add once I know I need it), and proceeded to fabricate a new inter cooler to T/B pipe.
I plan to vent boost to atmosphere but have a back up plan if need be to dump it into the "turtle shell" from the outlet of my BOV muffler. Regarding this, I had tried many combinations of boost return, boost delete, boost vent, that were OEM and also custom. I have settled (for now) on dual BOV's that vent into a silencer ahead of the inter cooler. I have a post with "with" and without" silencer video sound clips, and I have the crankcase breather plumbed to the charger return side.

Sorry for the novel length reply
Sorry for the typos
Sorry for the confusing timeline 
But 
Thanks for the interest.
I am happy to share with anyone that is interested enough to pay any attention to this unconventional project.
I will revise, repeat, and improve on each successive build.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

haven't followed this for awhile. glad you went to the cis box BEFORE the charger.
i have done that before but with turbo.
the haltech will add the extra needed fuel once you start going leak around 6psi...or so depending on the fueling.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks NLS.
I did, at the very beginning, start with the meter ahead of the charger.
I went by the non fixed displacement theory that charger downstream would yield better A/F measure and metering.
I spent a lot of time proving or disproving if this was ideal.
My issue with it draw through was ironically overfueling due to dump being WAY downstream of the meter.
I switch approaches so I could test if dump ahead of the meter would improve the over fueling condition.
It did, but it also caused other issues.
Like Corki Bell indicates in his book, sometimes the compromise is better than the continued iterations, with the emphasis being running richer than running leaner.

So I went right back to where I started, *BUT* decided to improve what I had almost right, and try and minimize what was hindering the original draw through design. I dump to atmosphere, pre intercooler and am running a bigger metering head. This should allow for more precise fuel metering (due to the steeper and larger cone) and a better floating body at mid-WOT.
If it doesn't then I will plumb boost back to the meter, blasting down on the sensor plate. and add the F5 and lean out the metering head DPR.

What I also discovered is the the G60 should have the dump ahead of the fuel meter, but seeing there is really no fuel meter in Digi I, rather a Co Pot and chip tuning, it is a compromise to have it within T/B. Ideally it should have been pre-intercooler (because the G60 is almost a true fixed displacement device, like the roots) and benefit with recirculation very close to the outlet. That would have required a bunch of linkages or additional parts like found on Mercedes setups.
This was the 90's and VW was already pushing the envelope on the platform. 

If anyone wants to read more, just throw something out there.
Glad to have some interest.
And thanks NLS for the tips/parts/guidance. I don't always like doing it first.
When I have this setup I might then throw on the 68mm and see what the CIS 5Cyl head can fuel.
With the 78mm pulley and a fresh ported G60, I can build 12-14 pounds, but I am always curious what it is capable of.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Have you tried the dump directly after the charger and instead of dumping to atmosphere, dumping right back to charger inlet? This is the way all eaton chargers handle this problem.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

That is pretty much how I have it set now with the dual BOV's.
But I would be dumping it ahead of the charger into the "Turtle Shell"

Earlier I tried the OEM dump to the charger inlet but it did not cause the fuel distributor to trim leaner


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*12-28-2012 Update*

Made a stand for my grinder and polishers.
Tried out a firm polishing pad.
Works a lot better than hand buffing
Charger to Intercooler pipe









And half of the turtle shell


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*12-31-2012 update*

Happy New year
Made a single injector boss and upper fuel line manifold assembly. Welded the base to the intercooler to T/B pipe.
It took a few attempts on the upper block to get a good seal for the injector top. May need to do it a third time with a proper 14mm counter bore tool.
Will know if it works once I make a fifth injector line and pressurize it.

Now to more grinding, sanding, and polishing the bright work.
Have to still make some mounting provisions for the air box and a shroud for the air filter located in the fender, then test the 5 cylinder fuel distributor and injector flow volumes.
Then I will be closer to tidying things up and getting this back on the road.
One picture of the 5th injector assembly.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-1-2013 Update*

Another picture of some more items getting polished
Intake Plenum (Turtle Shell)
Fuel Meter Air box
BOV Muffler


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-7-2013 Update*

Home today so I got it pretty close to firing it up.
Overall nearly reassembled











Polished the ISV for kicks











And swapped in the old worked fuel distributor, polished it a bit after welding on some ears for mounting the turtle shell.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-7-2013 PM update*

After doing away with the old 5 Cylinder fuel distributor setup I finally got everything together and semi cleaned up.


It runs, although it is once again overly rich, but this go around the engine is not stumbling or cutting out.
To adjust the over fueling, I will have to back out the DPR fine metering screw.
Throttle response is good and the plumbing is leak free.
Here is a video of it.
Can't wait to get this back on the road. 






Duplicate video.
Cannot seem to embed it

[video][video]http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa477/nbvwfan/CIS-%20G60%20GTI/?action=view&current=1-7-2013Running.mp4[/video][/video]


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Anyone know where I can buy a Mini Cooper S Diverter valve on the cheap.

I am interested in trying one out to ditch the Vacuum Bypass valves when I do the boost recirculation.


----------



## MaxVW (Nov 4, 2004)

use one from a 1.8t its a called a 710 valve

looks like this


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks.
I currently have two (ebay aluminum equivalents) of those running into a home-made silencer. I just don't like their sticky piston response. The partial boost load ahead of the T/B has me concerned with the lifespan of the G60 rebuild I recently did.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Just ordered*

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/11617568423/ES25835/

Hoping it works


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Messed with the DPR and Plunger stop length.
I got the A/F to ~10:1 at idle, but this is not good enough. 
I ordered a Vacuum Bypass from a Mini Cooper S but while I wait for it, I made a Tri-Y Pipe last night. This will plumb the dual BOV's and crankcase breather to the charger return. I have not started it yet but it should bring A/F up to I am hoping ~13:1 at idle.
Here are some pictures of it installed.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

is your valve cover breather on the boosted side of the piping?(after the charger)


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

No, it looks that way but the input is after the vent port of the BOV's returning to charger return of the G60
The dump is arranged,
Homemade RSR to to intercooler pipe, to dual BOV's to Tri-Y pipe, to charger return.

Also NLS,
Do you sell a CE-1 to Digi Swap cable harness?
considering when I am done with this doing it easier on my 16V 84 GTI which will be wired CE-1 from a MK2 wiring harness I saved.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

sorry, we do not


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Ok, thanks anyway.
I am looking forward to this all being a lot easier when I do it again. So much learned in this pilot build will be easier the next go around.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Just tried out the Tri-Y boost recirculation setup.
A/F is ~12:1 at idle and that is an improvement.
Clamped the line running air to the injectors, and there was more improvement. Without it clamped and left feeding the injectors, there was a lot of throttle lag and off idle stumble. I noticed this along with vacuum only being about -5 psi. I had to back off timing to drop the idle.
With it clamped, and the timing advanced a bit the engine has come alive and is running better than when I last had the draw through setup.
I can break the tires loose rolling in first gear pulling up the driveway.
I am going to fatten up the DPR to smooth out an upper end stumble. But an A/F averaging ~12:1 might just have to be taken as a final compromise. I guess running CIS-E draw through will never net 30 MPG. Time and highway miles will tell, but if the running is better, I think I might manage high 20's. Considering I am running a 26 year old fuel system under boost, on stock C/R and the stock T/B that has a working fuel cutoff switch, I might see near 30 MPG, and that is pretty good after all is said and done. Anything better than my blue shoebox van's 18-19 MPG will be an improvement. And driving a car that does not get constantly passed will be a welcome change. 

One thing I wanted to ask any who know. Is it normal in a boost recirculation setup to have the primary charger pipe running hot to the touch? I feel like my BOV's still leave a bit of positive pressure in the setup up to the T/B. When I was feeling the pipes, my charger pipe is hot to the touch. My post intercooler pipe is only slightly warm. I guess it is working, but I fear heat soak and putting the charger under undo load. I guess it is a tradeoff. Maybe I should plumb the boost recirculation after the intercooler, but then I might not see as much of a temperature delta. I plan on probing the temps of the pipes with my DVM once I have a bit of confidence in the setup.
I am just glad to have it running much better than when I tore everything apart about three weeks ago.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-10-2012 PM update*

Even though it is temporary, I took out the Tri-Y and cleaned it up.
While I was at it I removed the alternator and tried it polished. Need to get a set of miniature polishing bits for a dremel to get into all the detail points.
It is back together and runs well enough I hope to try it out tomorrow.
Pictures of the polishing


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-14-2013 Update*

Not much this weekend to report due to WRX shock R&R and my WBX changing the cat and muffler.

Did some thinking on what to do to minimize the rich idle condition that has always been the issue with my draw through setup.
Don't think anyone has any inputs or experience, but my next tweaking will involve making a new sensor plate and experimenting with affecting the "floating body principle".
My goal is to make a plate that has a negative flange at the far end to allow a slight air gap, thus causing less lift at idle. I plan on making some versions in aluminum and working towards a model that acts like the original at everything off idle up to WOT, with idle lift reduction being the key.

I have already ruled out adjusting the, plunger stop depth (affects max volume of flow to lift), the mixture screw (affects A/F across entire range) and the DPR valve plate position screw (affects ECU power trim [DPR ma current]). So with this I am looking for a mechanical solution in the fluid dynamics of the sensor plate and cone. I know Bosch developed with this in mind and made the sensor plate, diameter, and metering cone geometry to the specific volume and power requirements. I just am doing a work around to the current package and cone design to theoretically change my cone geometry.

Meantime, I am waiting for some 60mm seal rings from GAP to resolve my leaky pump housing, and messing around with my snowflakes that I am polishing for a color match paint scheme.
Thanks for the interest.
Reply back if you have any thoughts.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-16-2013 Motivation update*

Waiting on the fuel reservoir seal rings.
Hoping it comes today.
Washed the car but the cats keep climbing on it.
Still waiting to finish compounding and applying wax. Still have about a month before its cured enough to do so.
Had not shot an updated bay pic so here is one. 









And also after its quick wash. Still kind of wish I had done the Mazda Toreador red...


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

No new breakthroughs. Still have rich idle and some of the same prior issues, though not as pronounced. 
From my past post, I filed a sensor plate down, a little making a flat, to let some idle air by. While it works to lean it out (~13.5:1), I had to adjust the mixture screw at idle to eliminate a lean bounce, which put me right back to ~12:1. 
Scratch that theory... 

Tweaked the DPR ~1/2 turn CW and the lean stumble is almost gone, but A/F dropped to 11-13:1, and the idle does not settle around 850. It tends to run ~1100, then every so often, it drops, stumbles and cuts out. 
I think I have it pinpointed to the BOV's (DV's) fighting with the idle air screw and ISV. There are three items all doing similar things. I have run the car without the ISV, but I want to keep it for when I use A/C. No progress on that front. 

From some inputs from "alaincopter", I am going back to some of the basics in troubleshooting this. I hooked up my DPR voltmeter harness and checked "bounce". There is none. On my car, I don't have the plate/cone/plunger geometry matched to the CFM. This is why I am going to get a bigger meter. For the time being though, I settled on checking function of the DPR. At mid throttle the current goes positive (~5-10 ma), upon snapping the throttle shut, it goes negative (-0 ma). At idle (and rich), it is at 0 ma. 

I also swapped the ECU and Lambda control unit with a spare, no change, but I left it in as it is from a 16V. 

I tightened up the BOV's and my idle and A/F got better, boost recirc was a bit more stable. 

I was going to change the CAM but its getting colder and I am done for the day. 
I unpacked my stufff from ESC and found they still sold and shipped me the MINI S diverter Valve. 
Good news, I have another boost recirculation item to plumb; bad news, I have another boost recirculation item to plumb. (CIRCLES) 
It is not ideal for this, but I figure I can try it after the intercooler in a section I have some space by means of an intermediary pipe and one more coupler. I will be trying it out, but not as the MINI S runs it. I don't know if it will function any better than my dual BOV's, but its flow and volume will probably be better and that will drop the A/F. 

Guess I will update those sub'd with the progress. 
It should clean up some of the areas I now have little space to work in and eliminate the recirculation temperature that is on the high side. 

Thats enough for now, sorry I did not have any pictures, once it is warmer I will hit this again.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-27-2013 Tonights Update*

Did some more pull and swap. 
This time I put the OEM Corrado T/B and Recirculation pipe back in. 
Ditched the BOV's and hooked it all back up. 
Surprise surprise, A/F is about 13.5:1, Idle is smooth, no surge, no off idle stumble, and after warmup everything up, the running manners are pretty good 
Only had to do a bit of leaning to get it around 14:1. 
This has come full circle, and I have a better appreciation for the design of the G Lader boost recirculation. I like how it regulates the intake charge to the point that up to about 1/3 throttle the engine is N/A. After that the boost is smoothly transitioned to the engine and PSI increase is fairly linear. 
Now that I have the meter dialed to deliver equal amounts of fuel to each injector it the CIS seems to respond well to this gradual transition. The irony is after all this I have pretty much the same setup as my first spin, though, now I have better piping and fittings that are less restrictive and cumbersome. 

Next up is to try and get the fuel pump to seal. Even with a new pump 60mm seal it still leaks. 
I am going to pull it and RTV the pump body to build up some of the housing around the seal interface. 
After that I am going to try and resolve the lack of heat. I think my heater core is clogged from coolant sitting when I started this all about two years ago. 
I Just want to get this on the road, but I have some little things I need to address first.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*2-1-2013 Update*

Got this day before yesterday.










2.0 16V Passat GL fuel distributor.
I measured it and it has an extra 1/4" of sensor plate travel due to the longer plunger stroke.
Cone geometry is a single, steeper draft with the same overall outside diameter.
This will work better to eliminate the rich spot at part throttle.
I had tested another one of these meters and it flowed ~260 cc's per minute.
By Peter Tong calculations that is good for ~175HP (1 Liter-min/170HP)
This is without the DPR adjusting for more fuel, I think this is good for over 250HP with the proper fuel enrichment and DPR tune.

Downsides-
It's plunger is sticking and I think the internals need a bath in Seafoam before I do anything to it.
The question is, do I do the fab work to mount it to my Turtle shell or save it for my 16V build?
Now that I have mine running well enough to drive, I am on the fence. I may go ahead and do the work to it to improve it and pair it to my setup instead of saving it for later, partly because I am toying with the idea of a dual charger, dual FD setup on my 16V, wouldn't that be cool? Never saw one of them. :what:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*2-9-2013 Happy with some progress Update*

Well, I managed to beat the cold and do a few hours in the garage.
I attempted to fix the fuel reservior leak, managed to get it pretty much fixed, just need to pull the feed and change out the checkvalve washers.

I took the plunge and pulled out my "RD" cam. I swapped it for a stock G Lader cam and put everthing back together mining the cam caps and torquing them to 14 ft/lbs.
When I went to slip the timing belt back on I felt the intermediate shaft jump a couple teeth .
This was the case when I set about to fire it up. After fiddling with the position of the distributor I decided to pull it and swap it out for another used one since my orignal hall sender plug was cracked.
I got it in with the proper orientation and rotor lining up withthe notch in the housing. It fired right up.
Surprisingly, the idle was settled at right around 900, the A/F was better at ~13.5:1 and it rev'd much better with the surge eliminated. I took a timing light to it and it was great right around 5 BTDC. Left it alone and jumped in to drive it and warm it up. It is nearly good enoguh to not consider fooling with the mixture or DPR. 
The best part, pulling back in the driveway rolling in first, cracking the throttle not even to half throttle, the tires easily break loose. I did not believe it so I tried it again. I cannot beleive how much improved the power is with the zero overlap G Lader cam. It no longer surges with power after 3500, it has it from idle on up.
I am glad I decided to finally pulll and do the cam swap. It was easier than I anticipated and the results are well worth the trouble.

I plan on taking some video of it once I test it on open road.

More updates soon.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Mockup and wired in Haltech F5 fifth injector*

A little more progress today, though I had to fix our trailblazer fan clutch, replace the Vanagon's ATF, and do an oil change on the WRX.

I pulled the filed sensor plate and put in the OEM. I then tuned the DPR on the leaner side, about 1/2 turn CCW, and then fattened up the mixture to compensate. The goal was to lean out at idle and let the fuel distributor work like the motor is N/A. 
I dove in and finished my double banjo bolt and fed a fuel line to my 5th white top injector. Happily it does not leak at the injector hat. I have a weeping washer on the double banjo connection but I think that with some sanding and new washers it should seal. I broke out the Haltech F5 and wired it up for a mockup. It worked right away and with the factory settings of enrichment trigger at 0 PSI I already see the benefit. It was starting to get dark and getting too cold to keep at it, but glad again to have made some incremental progress.
Thanks again to *NothingLeavesStock* for the tips and the deal on the Haltech F5, well worth it.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

great!
i loved useing that setup. easy to tune and works mint


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*2-13-2013 Update*

After a lot of searching I was able to source the items needed to safely run a fifth injector line to my fuel enrichment.
I have a mockup setup that works but I am wary of running a rubber fuel line across the head to the injector and I am not confident in my double banjo sandwich.
I went on summit racing and ordered:
AN4 Weld bung for the top of my 12mm Banjo bolt
AN4 PTFE straight fittings 2x
AN4 PTFE stainless fuel line 10'
AN4 to 1/8 NPT 90 degree elbow.
I should have the stuff by Friday so I can plumb it in and finalize the setup then start with the fun of dialing in the CIS-E to run N/A and let the Haltech F5 handle the boost enrichment.
My hopes is this will be the last weekend of working in circles.

Holla bak if you think it will work.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*2-18-2013 Update*

Managed to get the Haltech F5 wired in, so it is halfway done. Next up is fitting the fuel feed to finish the job, but the ~20 degree cold has delayed the work over the weekend.
Drove it around and the transition to boost is not so slumped and the stabilized A/F is around 11:1 average. I still need to trim the DPR to run a bit leaner on the N/A side and then let the Haltech takeover.
Right now, at cutover to boost, it has a momentary drop to about 10:1 so there is a slight bog, but I prefer this over the lean stumble that it had before the 5th injector was hooked up.
Slow progress.
More progress hopefully later in the week.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*2-23-2013 Updates*

I posted on the MK2 but will summarize here for any sub'd.
The AN3 Fitting got welded to the top of my 12mm Banjo Bolt at the pressure regulator return line. I made up on end and ran the line to the 5th injector and terminated it. Everything is tidy and leak free, though I am going to re-weld the Banjo as is seems to wet while running and under pressure, not a leak, just capillary even though the weld was pretty decent fusion welded. Guess I should have tried continuous, but I am not that good at TIG in cold weather.

I then worked on my leaking pump reservoir. After a bunch of washer and seal swaps, I determined the pump body had a breach. I dug around and found my old pump that was also a leaker, and put it in. The pump body is loose with the pump, but seems to hold pressure and not pee all over the floor.
It is good enough for now, and I wil be getting another pump on order. Have to get a bunch of safety and reliability issues solved prior to the 500 mile Sowo trip.
Slow and steady progress, it is running better than I have had it from September. The Haltech works perfect, and I think it is only some tuning of the DPR and other minor issues and checks.
That's enough for now, until later.

EDIT/ADD
Here are the crappy pictures of the 5th injector

At the injector









At the FPR


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-9-2013 Finally some good weather updates*

Got some stuff done today.
I got started before it warmed up and installed new head unit, nothing fancy, just the basics with a USB port and headphone jack. I am happy with it even if it was a 65$ best buy pioneer base model.

Next up was the leaking fuel pump. I scored a fuel meter and pump and reservoir from another vortexer thumbup: MSamphier :thumbup. I managed to get the pump out and then cleaned it up and installed it in my reservoir. No more leaks and a nice high pitch whine while running.

Took the car out to return the pump I bought that was the wrong size  (53mm Python). The car runs pretty good, A/F at idle was ~14:1 and punched it would drop to 10:1 while in boost. The only thing bugging me is a stutter while on WOT. I think it is my meter not being up to task with the demand of fuel needed while the 5th injector is firing. I tried a couple things, but think it is down to a momentary pressure drop that settles to lower than optimal fuel pressure and probably poor spray patterns at the four CIS injectors. I will start working on the 2.0 fuel meter tomorrow to graft it into the system.

I wanted to address cooling/heat so I drained then flushed the cooling system in hopes it would help my heating issue. It did not, and I still had lukewarm air coming out the vents.

I decided to find then tear apart parts of the climate control to find where my vacuum leak was for the A/C controller. I had to pull the radio but eventually found the issue. My black line that feeds the climate control was blown off the line coming in from the engine. I replaced it with another feed and added my vacuum bottle chamber which I had taken out a while back. With a bunch of finessing I was able to get it all working.

Bummer, though, my A/C compressor high side line decided to loosen up so I have lost my charge of refrigerant . I will deal with that in a couple days.

I got everything cleaned up and put away but the amount of progress I had hoped for was a bit less than I had wanted.

The weather is supposed to be good tomorrow so I plan on hitting the meter and seeing if I can finally get the fuel delivery finished.

Any of those reading have any ideas/confirmation that the stumble while on WOT is a system pressure drop issue? I would like some confirmation if you care to share. The car runs pretty solid all the rest of the time, even to the point of almost driving this tomorrow and then to work this week. But I want the running manners and economy as good as I can get it before Sowo.

That's it for tonight.
:thumbup: thanks for reading.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I got the GTI on the road for a 80 mile round trip to my folks for a visit.
It was delayed due to the AN3 fitting deciding it did not like rubbing up against my expansion tank.
I had to re terminate the line to solve the leak. The injector top decided to weep after I got that leak solved but I got it good enough to drive it. I will pop out the oring and replace it with a new one.
On the 40 mile trip out, the WOT poor performance was more pronounced but not enough cause to park it. I drove it out then tweaked the DPR 1/2 turn richer and adjusted the mixture to ~14:1.

I took my brother out for a test drive since he leaves for germany tonight.
He did a 0-60 test with me and the GTI scoots to 60 in ~6.5 seconds.
Not as fast as I thought but not bad considering the WOT stumble and nearly 30 year old components.
Boost is a solid 8 PSI, but it is hard to say 10 PSI, since I have to look down while WOT so estimating on the low end. 

I drove it home this way and I am happy to have gotten 80 miles on it to confirm some bugs are worked out. Not at 100%, but better than when I took it off the road in October.

My TO DO list is still pretty long in preparation for Sowo. I don't want to back out, but there is a lot I want to cover before doing a 500+ mile each way trip.

Install 2.0 fuel meter (need)
Add 2.25" flexpipe and ditch the socket ball (need)
I need to upgrade the exhaust or fix the hangers (want not need)
A/C will need to be charged (want not need)
Bay Tidy (want, but how)
Stereo finished (need)
Fuel failure proofed (need)
Shortlist the incidentals that could fail to take with me or do over the next several weeks. (need)
Smaller tires and a taller 5th (want)
HD Clutch (want)
Fix the mixer flap foam (want)
Sunroof seal R&R (need)
Doorcards (want)
Resolve the rattles (want, want, want)
Spot color sand (want)
final compound and wax (need)
Fender flares (want or TBD)
Red stripe bumper (want)
Toolkit packed (need)
Trans end cap replaced (need)
Oils and fluids change (want)
Re-install raintray (need)
Detail the rubber and remove the compound residue (want)
Install badging (want)
...
The list goes on and is daunting.
That's enough for now

to 60 in ..6.5 seconds... 
I will add a picture from today once it is uploaded.
Before paint ~September 2012










Today 3-10-2013
(EDIT: Also realized, my 8PSI is due to my BOV's set to open apparently at 8 PSI)


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Sourcing a better clutch*

While I wait for another block of time to work on this I am on the hunt for a clutch upgrade.
I am guessing I am making about 175HP at the crank, and the stock clutch is not up to the task, long term. 
I am thinking a new 16V PP 4 puck disk and a lightened flywheel.
I am open to opinions and/or recommendations.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-16-2013 Updates*

I managed to get started on grafting in the 2.0 16V meter. 
Beforehand I did some measurements. It seems the pivot bearing sits about .100" deeper, although the plunger/pivot stroke is the same Also the Cone to sensor plate base is also about .100" deeper. Maybe that makes no sense, but it does confirm that the distributors are not interchangeable. 

I went ahead and welded on the same type of mounting ears I have two other times. 
Once that was done, I transferred over the lines and wired up my switch to trigger the fuel pump so I could do some flow/volume testing. 
I was disappointed to find that at full bore for three minutes this meter flowed less than my worked 8V unit (500cc vs 625cc). Before I worked in circles I did three more tests with the 3rd and 4th each turning the mixture screw in 1/2 turn to take up plunger free play. 
No change, but at least I knew the meter was consistent across all injectors with a variance of less than 3%. 

I put the injectors back in and hooked everything up. 
I am not going to say it runs better.. I cannot readily tell. 
What I see is my A/F seems more proportional to the actual airflow though. 
I drove it up and down the road to see if the stumble still persisted. 
I am not going to say it does or does not, again I could not tell. 

I guess my drive tomorrow will determine if this was an improvement, or just a waste of my time and money. For today though, one noteworthy improvement is apparent, it starts and idles a lot better. 

Tomorrow I will do my 80 mile trip and tweak the Haltech F5 as it might be a combination of that and today's efforts to get this right/right. 
For now, my guess is the taller cone and the more substantial internals (higher flow/plunger pressure) of the meter will improve the floating body principle of the draw through. 

I can also play with plunger stop depth to gain more stroke and slit height, though the DPR and the Lambda unit should be controlling that. 
My other 2.0 16V distributor, before I sold it, tested at about 800CC's each injector in 3 minutes with the plunger bottomed out. By Peter Tong's math (170HP/L/Minute) that is 181 HP without the DPR. 

Enough for now, I take it this is mostly me just documenting the work and hopeful progress. 
Maybe someone will find it useful someday. 
Will post again tomorrow.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-17-2013*

I will summarize. 
Took it out for my 80 mile run. Things were improved over last Sunday. Only a couple mild stumbles and several slips of the clutch in 4th and 5th. 
I got some gas at the end of my trip and pulling out, it acted up. 
Don't know what for, maybe it has some refueling system pressure issues. 
Drove it home. 
Decided to think it over and fix my heat. 
Found both flappers foamless and naked . 
After a couple scrapes and cuts, I manged to get 1/8 PSA foam put over the majority of the culprits. 
Heat Finally  
That was enough to wrap it up. 
Reluctant to take it out on a workday, but it is pretty close to ready. 
I might fool with the manners tomorrow, but I will have to gauge based on the weather. 

Questions/comments/requests? 

It is a blast to drive even with a slipping OEM clutch, and stumble and just a detuned 8 PSI. 
Nothing compares to surprising the yuppie in the 735i or the unsuspecting tinted MK4. Puts a grin all the way to 80MPH


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-21-2013 Parts update*

Got some late model GTI Red Stripe doorcards in yesterday. They are much better than my early model chrome stripe and have the 6.5" speaker pockets. A good deal from a good vortexer, thanks 71camaro. :thumbup: 
Got my .76 ratio 5th gear sets from BrokeVW, great guy who was willing to exchange ideas and information in several back and forth emails. :thumbup: 
Now it's time to read up on the conversion in preparation for it to be done on my 4K and 9A (020's). 
Hoping to order the Stage 2+ clutch from Spec this weekend. 
Plans are to install it next weekend. 
Up next is priming for the sunroof seal R&R, and other incidentals. I got some input from a fuel meter rebuilding house that confirmed I might resolve the fuel pressure dip by moving the 5th injector line to the input feed instead of the return to FPR feed. Thanks to Jason, at kmipetrolinjection.co.uk :thumbup: Hoping to try that out tomorrow. 
More updates this weekend.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-24-2013 Update*

Well,
I had three videos I shot, but they all sucked.
I will try and make this update less wordy.
Relocated the fifth injector feed to the inlet line. No significant change to running manners.
Installed late model door cards and sound deadening panels.
I went from 68 Db to 63Db at 65 MPH 
Played with the timing. Advancing it seemed to help everything, but also seemed to introduce some pinging. Filled it up and clocked 27.5 MPG which is a big improvement from my low 20's this fall.
I am looking into the ignition and what I can do to affect Boost retard as I think my stumble is due to the knock box retarding and N/A stock ECU timing maps.
Don't really know what I can do. There are no CIS-E ECU's that are boost capable.
Would it be good to source an MSD boost retard or am I pretty much at the point of 
a. Trying a dual port vacuum distributor
b. Reverting to CIS-Lambda
c. plunk down the cash and go standalone.

Thoughts anyone?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-29-2013 Update*

About half way through the teardown for a 5th gear swap with the transmission still in car. A lot of clearance issues to wrestle but that is common with the MK2.
Running out of daylight and working on how to remove the 5th housing with all the tight frame rail interferences. Time to hit it a bit more.

1 hour later edit:
.89 5th is out, .76 5th is about installed. Then the reassembly.
Was not sure, but it can be done with the transmission still in the car.



















Cannot wait for the Redline GL-4 Gear oil to arrive from GAP and a test drive to listen for the quieter driving manners.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*Hybrid Swap update 4-4-2013*

I have posted some updates on the MK2 thread, but thought I would tailor one for the Hybrid swap threads.

.76 5th gear is in
Transmission leak was detirmined to be the reverse switch seal
I installed the air injection line to try and eliminate the stumble. It worked, sortof, 
I now had ignition stumble from the knockbox going into limp mode. 
Drove it to work, Monday, Tuesday.
Got home and moved the line to the intake manifold, essentially looping it ahead of the Throttle body.
Drove it in Wednesday.
That took care of the limp mode, but introduced some pinging under boost and surging while decelerating.
Installed some colder plugs.
Drove it in today and filled it up at Costco with good 93 octane and half a bottle of Lucas Octane Boost.
It made a pretty good improvement.
Dealing with the engine mounts and have parts on order from GAP and a new knock sensor.
Tonight I gave the mixture screw a 1/2 turn CW to take up the sensor plate play, which seems to have taken care of the surging while decelerating and only richened it up about 1/2 point.
Planning to finish the commuting week, doing a parts run for our WRX which needs a rear differential.
I will fill it up then clock the mileage.

Question for anyone who may have inputs.
Is there anything that is relatively cheap that can piggyback the Hall and ICM and effect timing while in boost?
I am only looking to retard like 6 degrees from the stock map of ~15 BTDC on full boost. I already tried setting base time to ~0 BTDC and my mileage sucked, plus it was not fun off the line and tripped the knockbox.
I have emailed J & S Electronics with no reply, and searched but I only see MSD which entails like $450 and a bunch of research and splicing.
I am looking for something that will take over once I cross into boost and might be under $100.
If I can find this, I will have safe boost instead of unsafe over 8 PSI and could then run my 68mm pulley.
Any help is appreciated. :thumbup:
Thanks


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*4-8-2013 Updates*

Got a lot done this weekend after I fixed our trailblazer and replaced the rear end on our WRX.

GAP parts arrived and I changed all three engine mounts, and installed a new knock sensor.
I picked up some NGK iridium plugs and threw them. I cut out a straight section and put in a 31" resonator to try and quiet things down. I finished it off with a shifter rebuild replacing everything external that had seen some wear.
I still have a lingering rattle and I am not sure if it is the header collector hitting the steering rack or some boost tubes chattering.
It is running nearly like an N/A and the hydraulic engine mounts dampened the engine noise in the cabin.
Finally gave it a wash as it had not been done since painting it this October.
Installed the caps on the Teardrops and I am ready to roll for an errand this morning.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*4-9-2013 Day off updates*

I got some more stuff done today.
I cut my A/C line and extended it about 4" with some compression fittings.
Vacuumed it down and gave it a charge of R134a. Just one can for now to make sure it does not leak.
Compressor is loud but I think it is because it lost its oil charge when the line got loose.
I won't run it until I get a charge of PAG oil.
I shimmed one of the engine mounts and the exhaust rattle only happens during a random turn.
I dub'd it an autobot with a sticker I bought about ten years ago.
I think it fits as the transformation is nearly complete.
Gave it a coat of Total 360 all in one wax since the paint is finally cured.How does it look?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*4-18-2013 quick update*

The car has been running and driving pretty well now for three weeks DD'ing it.
A couple nagging issues, most will eventually be corrected.

The main bother is the intermittent ignition/fuel cut-out, that I cannot identify.
Ideas were it was the idle coast switch, but it happens independent of the throttle position.
Maybe it is the 16V Knockbox and some lingering ground fault, or the 8V ICM, or a fault in the harness and 16V ECU.
At this point it is bugging me, but not having the coast A/F also effects the economy, and deceleration and stop and go traffic is frustrating due to bucking.

Anyone have any tips of where I should look?
I plan on getting out the Bentley and looking through some of the idle switch diagrams to troubleshoot this weekend.

One more note, TT recommended putting in the 266 (AKA 270) cam.
Anyone run one of these in a F/I setup that can give some feedback.
Presently I have the G60 cam which I came to find is an "A" Grind, so swapping it in over my "G" Grind is actually hurting performance especially up top.
That is the latest for now.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*4-26-2013 Update and request for input*

I have been posting updates in the MKII forum, but this one I want to make here to see if someone can help in the 11th hour. 

Summary, my Haltech F5 (Long obsolete) decided to not work anymore yesterday. 
I decided to run a proper relay before installing my second unit I was saving for my next build. 
On the way in today, it decided to stop working too. 
I get clean isolated voltage (~13.V) to the second unit, as I attributed the failure may have been due to some dirty power. 
I will be adjusting the trim pots today to see if it is simply not in range, but here is where I need some assistance. 

Does anyone have any input on where/who I can buy a fuel enrichment controller? 
I need one that is boost sensitive, with coil triggered firing to a standard Bosch injector(s). I did some searching but everything I found is standalone. 
I have less than a month to Sowo and I would hate to not make the trip because of this, and/or have to make it but stay in the N/A range. Or have to regress to a horked up DPR power module Hobbs switch which is less than ideal. 
I am looking for a point of purchase solution. 
Any help is appreciated.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Found what I need. 
http://www.splitsec.com/products/aic1/AIC1.htm 
Called and confirmed it will be plug and play and much better resolution with computer based adjustment to 16PSI. 

Goodbye Haltech F5 with your dinky pots and dirty coil triggered, once per two crank revolutions, resolution. 

Check this place out for other "alternatives" to the MS bandwagon, their product will likely be in my next build... 

http://www.splitsec.com/index.html


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*4-27-2013 Updates*

Got some more done today. 
Finally got around to consolidating my gauges to the console. 
Tired of looking through the steering wheel to see boost and A/F. 
The J&S Safeguard vampire ignition controller came in so I was able to install it to manage knock. While I was under the dash I tucked and ran some of the wires to clean up the stuff running through the firewall. It is still visible due to trimming the boost retard minimum, which I will do tomorrow. 
I can already tell it is working. The off idle response is crisper and the middle throttle to WOT, has really smoothed out. 

Below is a shot of the current arrangement. 










Monday or Tuesday I should get the SplitSecond AIC1-A1L fueler that will pretty much complete the build. I'll install it and then test/tweak the loaded fuel map with some seat time with my son. 
Then all that is left is a clutch, some stock sized tires, Badges, to flare or not to flare, and all the little things to finish things off.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*5-5-2013 Picture Update*

Some pictures from today. 
I spare the essay.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Update for some on here that may have experience with what I am planning next.
Short story (long in the MK2 thread), I am going Roots and/or twin screw.
I have both in transit, both new, with minimal use by Ford Focus ITA program use.

Reading up on the pro's and cons and T/B relocation, the major hurdle is the intercooler and vacuum.
Anyone have any experience with a known intercooler that can operate downstream the T/B and Charger?
I think it is not so much the vacuum as it is the rapid pressure change and high frequency pulse.
Just wanting some guidance so that in my application, I don't have a louder front than back. 
Thanks


----------

