# Window Glass - confusion about differences between Phaetons



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Rear window glass - confusion about differences between Phaetons*

*NOTE ADDED IN 2012:

Before reading through this thread, please go have a look at this thread:* Cracked windshield, Windshield replacement considerations *which was published after all of us had figured things out and presents a much more concise explanation of windshield options, part numbers, and features.

Michael*


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi All:
I am quite perplexed about apparent differences in the appearance of the rear window glass between my W12 Phaeton and David's W12 Phaeton.
Both of our cars have the same production codes for the glass, namely, *4GN* _(laminated windshield with foil layer, with tinted strip and viewing window for VIN)_ for the windshield, and *4KV* _(laminated insulated (foil layer) glass for side and rear windows)_ for the side and rear windows. But, as you can see from the photos below, there is quite a difference in appearance between the rear window on my car and the rear window on David's car.
I have also seen a V8 Phaeton equipped with the production code *4KC* _(tinted glass side and rear windows, heat reflecting glass on rear window)_, and the rear window on that car appears to be the same as the rear window on David's car.
I have attached a photo showing the PN identification of the glass installed on the back of my Phaeton. David, could you take a similar photo and email it to me, so I can check and see what the difference is in the part number? To take a picture of this PN (located in the lower left corner of the rear window), just shove a blank sheet of paper in behind the glass.
If anyone has any possible explanation for this, I would appreciate your thoughts. 
Michael
*Michael's Car (build sticker identifies this as 4KV)*








*David's Car (build sticker identifies this as 4KV)*








*Someone else's Car (build sticker identifies this as 4KC)*
(*NB: * This photo was taken in the same place and at the same time as the top photo showing my car)








*Part Number from Michael's Glass*


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

Is the difference explained by interior color? David's dark interior reflects less light back through the glass. Looks like a Krystall Grey, two Anthracites and three Sonnen.
The tinted 4KC glass is interesting. Is this car in the US or Europe ROW only?








As I recall Joes car (Silver/Anthracite) has after-market tinted glass.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

Dang Fred! You beat me to it. I was just about to say the same thing about the interior color affecting it. A dark color just may be the answer. 
Anyway, Michael, I will take photos and get that number you're looking for sometime today or tomorrow.
Looking at the photo in front of the Chrysler museum illustrates that every beige interior seems to NOT have the blue reflection like the anthracite interiors.

_Modified by dcowan699 at 8:26 AM 6-19-2005_


_Modified by dcowan699 at 8:29 AM 6-19-2005_


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: Rear window glass - confusion about differences between Phaetons (PanEuropean)*

Michael, the glass in my car is numbered 43R all round.I also had the windscreen replaced under warranty within one week of delivery. This took a week to get a really good job was done, the glass was scratched before delivery.
I was told at the time the blue glass, the 43R is the same in the Bentley.


_Modified by pilgrim7777 at 9:27 AM 6-19-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*

*Fred:* Very good idea of yours to refer to that photo we took in front of the Chrysler museum. I have a higher res copy of the photo, I'll try to identify which car is which, and see if I have production codes for them. That might help us to figure things out.
*David: *I'm not sure that the interior colour difference between our two cars (mine sun beige, yours anthracite) explains the apparent difference in the rear glass - but, you never know, that might be it. I compared build stickers between your car and mine, and yours is identical to mine, excepting the interior colour and the higher revision status you have on vehicle 'operating permit', because your car was built quite a few months later than mine.
*Terence:* '43R' refers to the EC safety specification for laminated glass. 'D27' identifies the manufacturer of the glass - in the case of the Phaeton, Saint Gobain of France. If you could mail me a scan of your build sticker (from your owner manual), I would really appreciate it - that would help me figure out some of the differences between the UK spec vehicles and the NAR spec vehicles. There is more info about the build stickers here: Understanding Phaeton Production Codes & Build Stickers. I have quite a bit of data on NAR and European (continental) spec vehicles, but no data yet for UK spec vehicles.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here's a URL to a larger version of the photo of the cars in front of the Chrysler museum. I haven't posted the picture itself within this thread, because it is 1600 pixels wide. I think I have the car identifications correct, but I am not sure - please check.
http://s979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/Paneuropean/?action=view&current=Phaetonswithlabels.jpg


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I haven't gotten the photo yet but the label features:
SEKURIT
SAINT-GOBAIN
E1 43R. 001106
DOT 27 M450 AS2
..... 4IR
REAR Windshield
__________________________________________________________________ 
SEKURIT
SAINT-GOBAIN
E1 43R . 001051
DOT 27 M71 AS1
..... 4IR
FRONT Windshield
__________________________________________________________________
I'll try to email this to you around lunch today.



_Modified by dcowan699 at 8:57 AM 6-20-2005_


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## jmdpjd1 (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

Mine is an aftermarket non metallic tint at 20%. It does actully enhance the Blue tint in the rear glass. BTW my interior is anthracite.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (jmdpjd1)*

Hi Joe:
Thanks for adding that.
The more I study this whole matter, the more I tend to think that Fred came up with the right answer in his original post - the difference in the interior colour is what accounts for the 'apparent' difference in window colour. Every Phaeton I have done homework on (for the 'build sticker decoding' project) has the same production codes for the glass - 4GN for the windshield, and 4KV for the side and rear window. The only exception to this is one car, and that is the one with the 4KC (tinted) side and rear windows. But - that was a special car, not a regular production Phaeton, so it doesn't really count.
Michael


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_ 
The only exception to this is one car, and that is the one with the 4KC (tinted) side and rear windows. But - that was a special car, not a regular production Phaeton, so it doesn't really count.


Yes, it was a special car! And the more info I read on here, I realize how unique it was.
~PC


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_
Yes, it was a special car! And the more info I read on here, I realize how unique it was.
~PC

That one with the tinted glass - a coucou grey, was that yours PC? Bet that photo was taken the time you and Michael met for lunch! Hurry and get another one soon!


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Mine (so to speak) is the one directly to the left of yours in the photo.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_Mine (so to speak) is the one directly to the left of yours in the photo.

Ah-ha. Most interesting. If you have easy access to the build sticker, would you please check and see if it has 4KV or 4KC as the production code for the side and rear windows? 
Thanks, Michael


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Michael, 
As I recall the black V8 Chris brought to the GTG was built 12 units after "Miss Faye" and other than interior/exterior colors identically equipped.
~PC


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Hi PC:
I thought so, too. What really confuses me is that Chris's car and my car appear to be identical, if you look at the picture of all the cars in front of the Chrysler museam.
Chris, if you have time, could you take a picture of the rear window part number on your car, and send it to me? Just stuff a sheet of white paper inside the rear window before taking the picture.
Thanks, Michael


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## Soki (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hey, i don´t have an explanation but try to cover your rear window and see if it turns blue or purple, maybe under a cloudy day. In strong sunshine you won´t notice it that well i think.
My car is tinted and in some circumstances my rear window will turn a little bit blue.
Some thoughts:
I know that MB S/CL classes rear window turns a little bit purple when tinting or in special angels and that´s because it is a "cover" in the middle of the glas that reflects the sunlight away. More "seenable" at cars with dark interior if the car isn´t tinted. 
Also i noticed diffrences between the front window glass, some is a little bit purple some isn´t.


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## jmdpjd1 (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: (Soki)*

Soki;
That is true with my after market tint. there is a blue cast which becomes more pronounced in different light. (Silver Mirror in photo above).


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Bad news on that -- I think it may no longer be "of this world". I will check with one other person next I see him, but am not holding out hope.








Okay, to add:
We have four new Phaetons on the lot. They all have the 43R branding and all exhibit (to a degree) the same bluish "aura". I wasn't able to view all under the same conditions, but it's apparent in all of them:
Black over Beige
White over Grey
Silver over Anthracite
Cairo Grey over Anthracite (why this car is still on our lot is a mystery -- quite possibly the most beautiful iteration I've seen!)
The Black seems to emit the greatest "aura". One observation I did make is the density seems to be greater towards the top where the antennae are, a la the sun tint band at the top of the front windscreen.
From these, I would be able to glean build stickers if you thought it beneficial.


_Modified by chrisj428 at 6:04 PM 6-23-2005_


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## amybeth72 (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: (Soki)*

OK, I'm glad I read this post, because I was beginning to think I was actually seeing things... I've noticed my rear windshield seems to turn colors depending on how the light hits it. Sometimes it seems blue (mostly at night) and sometimes it seems a little yellow/gold (mostly during the day if the sun hits it just right).
No aftermarket tinting, but my car is a V8 Silver Mirror with Antracite interior. I have no idea what the label is on the glass, and since my car is currently undergoing transplant surgery, I can't check for a while.
But thanks for the posts. Now I know I'm not completely nuts.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (amybeth72)*

One thing I could try doing is put a couple of sheets of cardboard back behind my rear headrests to simulate a beige interior and see what the windshield looks like. If I can find the materials, I'll take a photo. I do believe Fred figured it out (he beat me at this guess by seconds







). 
If this were a gameshow, he would have gone to round 2.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

David, I'm hoping I'm wrong! It would be terrific to see different glass by region (hot sunny climates vrs. cold rainy ones) or special glass available grouped within option packages (Cold/Comfort or Technology).
Good luck with you search for Sonnen beige cardboard - and better use the same camera, same sun angle through the rain. (Road trip!)








We may never know!


_Modified by Paldi at 10:10 PM 6-23-2005_


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## Soki (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (amybeth72)*

hey, i never noticed it before i tinted my car. Then when the car was tinted i saw it in the daytime, i didn´t like that and then i started to look at every car i saw and realized that it´s very common.
Also i looked at some old pictures of my car and THEN saw that the rearwindow could reflect a blue colour in sometime. Often when looking at the car from the side+rear and not often when looking directly at the window.
Purple on MB CL -- 








Blue on a Maybach -- 








_(Image link formatting corrected by Michael so photo shows up in the thread)_


_Modified by PanEuropean at 12:39 AM 6-25-2005_


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

White is not a good color on the Maybach IMHO.


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## amybeth72 (Jun 23, 2005)

So this weekend I've got a "loaner" W12. It's Black Klavierlack with the Sonnenbeige interior. It's a totally different look than my Reflex Silver V8 with the Anthracite interior. The thing I find odd on this one is the rear window. It seems to have a yellow tinge to it which I'm having a hard time getting used to. The W12 is quite nice, but I'm partial to my baby and can't wait for it to return home.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (amybeth72)*

Probably reflection from the "hat shelf" area. My Kristall Grey does it. Thinking about having a dark cover made for back there - like a dash cover - to keep the sun off and cut the down reflection. Anthracite and dark blue interiors are super.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Thinking about having a dark cover made for back there - like a dash cover - to keep the sun off and cut the down reflection.

Why would you want to make a cover for the hatshelf, if the glass itself is IR reflective and heat reflective? Geez, if you make a cover for the hatshelf, the car is going to look like a jitney on a Caribbean island.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I've never been to a Carribian Island! Sounds like an idea, for research purposes of course. I hope you had a happy Canada Day!
The idea is to cut down on the amount of light reflected from the hatshelf up into the back glass. After 10 years with black interiors, I feel it's distracting. I always wanted a Phaeton with a black interior but couldn't find it on a Phaeton except for the first one I drove (did not have tech package) and the silver ones. All the Premier W12's except David C's have Sonnen beige...
Using the rear sunscreen helps. But not enough.










_Modified by Paldi at 7:12 PM 7-2-2005_


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*windows...*

Hi, there were some discussions a while ago about the difference in windows from the V8 to W12 versions. I recently had my windshield replaced and the new one does not appear to be the same, despite the dealer apparently ordering based off my vin...perhaps they are all the same, but I would like to propose a little test please....can you take a look at your lower passenger side windshield and record what it says along with what model you have? And if you want to add the sides and rear pls do so as well. Here's mine:
Front windshield 
dot 27 M452 AS1
E1 43R- 001051
E 000185
.......5
Sides:
dot 27 M480 AS2
E1 43R 001404
3IR
Rear:
dot 27 M450 AS2
E1 43R 001105
3...IR

It appears my new front windshield is not the double layer/foil/metallic infra red etc. glass that I have on the sides and rear. What I am wondering is whether the front is the same for all or if there are differences. I foolishly did not take note of my old cracked one








Thanks very much. Also, despite the dealer service being superb, and the "farmed out" glasswork company having worked on some Phaetons before, there was a clip sitting inside the engine compartment, the rubber pieces inside were not properly replaced, a screw was missing where there clearly should be one, and the overhead console inside isn't flush anymore with the glass!








One other question as well- along the edge of the windshield as one looks up towards the roofline, there's a small diminishing gap that for about 75% of the way is filled in with a rubber strip but the last foot or so as it narrows is empty- there's only about 1mm space, but when I look carefully what I see appears to be the inside of the car...I would never had looked not having the windshield replaced, but since they missed some things, I wanted to see if this was normal as indeed it may be, or that they forgot something else...
Ed.

_Moderator note: I merged Ed's post (this one) in with the original thread that he referred to in his first paragraph. Michael_


_Modified by PanEuropean at 1:16 PM 11-19-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*

Hi Ed:
There is an enormous amount of confusion about the specifications for Phaeton windshield glass. I was at the factory in Dresden on Thursday, taking pictures of windshields, and I am still trying to figure it out.
The situation is not made any better by the error in the current (2006) North American Phaeton brochure - the brochure with the picture of the Phaeton in front of the CBOT - which states that all Phaetons have electrically heated windshields. I am now beginning to wonder whether there is, in fact, and difference between the V8 and W12 windshield, and whether we get 'heat-blocking' glass, or IR reflective glass, or both in our NAR spec cars.
I will try to figure this out later today and post an answer for you.
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael, that would be interesting. I am particularly interested in whether the NA W12's have the same front windshield glass as the V8, or whether it should be the IR spec as is on all the other windows....I would like to know what other owners of both have in their windshields.....
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*

Hi Ed:
Sorry to take so long getting back to you with information concerning the windshield glass, but the more I looked to try and find complete and correct information, the more complex things became.
Here is what I have found so far. These findings don't all agree with each other, which means one of two things - either there is more information out there that we are not aware of, or, there are errors in some of the printed documentation (sales brochures) that have been put out by VW of America.
I started by taking pictures of two original (Dresden) windshield installations - one in my own 2004 W12, and one in a 2005 V8 that is sitting in a showroom not far from my house. As far as I can determine from looking at the windshield glass itself and at the labeling on the glass, the two windshields appear to be the same. The label that is screened on the glass itself states that both offer IR protection. The production code stickers suggest that there is a difference in specification - that the W12 has production code *4GN*, which I understand to mean 'insulated glass windshield', or _wärmedämmendes Glas_ in German, and the V8 has production code *4GP* which I understand to mean tinted glass, or _Wärmeschutzglas_ in German. The coding of the roof control module (controller 38) is different on the two cars, and the roof controller coding is affected by what kind of glass is installed. My W12 is coded as '15', and the V8 is coded as '47'.
The European (German language) brochure states that _Wärmeschutzglas_ is the basic glass, and _Dämmverglasung_ (with integral IR protection) is the upgraded glass. Daniel's Phaeton - the Swiss W12 with the USD $200K price tag - shows that he also has the 4GN windshield, same as I have in my W12 Premier Edition. Daniel's roof controller is also coded the same as mine, after allowing for the fact that he has a solar generating sunroof installed.
So, as you can see, we have some incongruities here - the windshield labels suggest the glass is the same thing on both cars, but the production code stickers and the roof controller coding suggest that the glass is a different specification.
The North American Phaeton brochures for MY 2004, 2005 and 2006 are of no use figuring this out, because all of those brochures state that the Phaeton has an 'electrically heated' windshield, which is an option that has never been offered in North America. The MY 2005 and 2006 brochures state that the W12 has 'an additional infrared layer'. Personally, I think (just a guess) that all 3 years of W12s had an infrared layer, none of the 3 years of V8s had an infrared layer, and none of the NAR cars, ever, had an electrically heated windshield. I have checked my car, and there are no wires present at the electrical distribution box in the rear to feed an electrically powered windshield.
I don't know what to say or where to go from here. I think we need to collect more information. I will try and check with my Canadian VW dealer and see if the parts catalog lists two different windshields - one for the W12, and one for the V8.
Michael
*2004 NAR W12 Windshield Glass (Michael's car)*








*2005 NAR V8 Windshield Glass (car in VW showroom)*








*Build Sticker - Michael's car*








*Build Sticker - 2005 V8 in picture above*








*VW of America Phaeton Brochure 2004*
Page 75








*VW of America Phaeton Brochure 2005*
Page 73








*VW of America Phaeton Brochure 2006*
Page 73


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Michael, for what it's worth, when I had my 2004 V8, I could use my IPass tollway transponder by velcroing it to the inside of my windshield. When I traded that car on a 2004 W12, velcroing the IPass to the inside of the windshield didn't work anymore - something in the W12's windshield was blocking the signal, something that wasn't present in the V8's windshield.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (bobschneider)*

Hi Bob:
Thanks for that information - that tends to confirm that there must be some kind of difference between the two windshields. Now, all we have to do is find out what it is...
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for all the work Michael. I think there are 2 different kinds of glass in the 2 different cars. I also think now for some reason VW NA has decided that all replacement glass be the lower, non infra-red glass. This is what I have been given as replacement I believe...I am still waiting on word from Diane at PCC, but any W12 owners out there pls as Michael did above, give the desciption of the windshield glass specs as well...The heating issue I am completely unaware of and most likely you are correct Michael about it not being present however one thing I did notice this winter is that ice now sticks to the glass when snowing-when its not too cold out- which I do not recall having occurred last winter even once.








Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_ I also think now for some reason VW NA has decided that all replacement glass be the lower, non infra-red glass. This is what I have been given as replacement I believe...

Hi Ed:
Though I agree that VW of America can occasionally be incompetent - as evidenced by the errors in the brochures, and the possibility that someone installed the wrong type of windshield in your car - I doubt very much if they are deliberately doing anything wrong. I mean, if they were dishonest, they wouldn't be losing a billion dollars a year in North America.








My guess is that someone at the local level - for example, the parts department in your dealership - may have ordered the wrong glass, or, someone at head office who maintains the parts catalog may have screwed up and not listed the two different windshields (if there are two different windshields). I can't, however, imagine VW ever doing something like this on purpose. It would be way out of character for them.
I'll keep digging to see if I can find out more information.
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Hi, no I didn't mean to say anyone had been dishonest!







What may have happened is that VW decided for some reason not to carry the 2 different types of glass and instead just decided that one size fits all...







?
Ed.


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## dtwphaeton (Sep 7, 2004)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*

Ed, I think you will find that you simply encountered an "operator error," either in your dealer's parts department, or, perhaps, in the VWoA parts depot. But I know they continue to stock the IR glass. I just had my windshield replaced about three weeks ago (wonderful Michigan roads). Ordered the IR windshield through my dealer's parts department, it arrived in a little over a week, and the dealer's usual glass subcontractor (who had done Phaetons for them before) installed it perfectly. Well, almost. The automatic dimming mirror no longer worked. This was fixed under warranty because, luckily, my dealer found that it had never been wired in correctly, and the malfunction hadn't been caused by the windshield replacement. At any rate, this experience makes me confident that if your dealer verifies the correct part number they can definitely obtain the IR windshield from VWoA. Joe


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: windows... (dtwphaeton)*

That's good to hear Joe, thanks. Can you pls post the exact details of your new windshield which you find in the lower right side back here? 
I want to compare with what I have.
Thanks
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (dtwphaeton)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtwphaeton* »_... The automatic dimming mirror no longer worked. This was fixed under warranty because, luckily, my dealer found that it had never been wired in correctly...

Hi Joe:
Interesting to hear that. I had the interior rear view mirror on my Phaeton replaced a few months ago (trim plastic cracked on it), and since then, the anti-dazzle (night-time darkening) function on the two outside mirrors has not worked. I'm really at a dead end trying to troubleshoot this one. Would appreciate it if you could have a look at the post I made on this subject ([http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2268581]Inside rear view mirror dims, but the outside ones don't[/url]) and let me know if you think there might be any commonality with your problem. If you have any thoughts, just tack them onto that thread.
Many thanks, Michael
*PS to Ed:* I'll get the listing of windshield part numbers from my dealer tomorrow and post them here.


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## dtwphaeton (Sep 7, 2004)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Ed and Michael,
This windshield issue intrigued me so much I have spent the last two days going back and forth with my parts manager. It looks like the confusion might be the way the windshields are listed in the parts manual. It turns out that as described in the manual, they are differentiated not by model (V8 or W12) but by COLOR (green or light blue). It must have made sense to somebody!
At any rate, he tells me that the light blue one is the one with the infrared reflecting glass (i.e., it's the one for the W12). The green one is the conventional glass for the V8. The part numbers are as follows:
Light Blue infrared reflecting glass
3D1-845-011-R
Green normal glass
3D1-845-011-Q
I had him check for North American inventory. As of today, he says, there are none of the light blue windshields in the U.S. or Canadian parts depots. He found out, however, that two of them are available at the central worldwide parts depot in Germany and are readily available for ordering. 
Before you ask, there ARE more than two Phaeton windshields in stock in the world. The green V8 windshield is in inventory. The light blue W12 windshield for the U.S. and Canadian specification Phaetons are however a pretty limited production item. As we know, there aren't that many cars, and the North American specification is unique, because of the markings required by NHTSA and Transport Canada; the dark tinted band; and the window for the vehicle ID number which must be visible from outside.
Sorry for the long post, but hope this helps. Your dealer should have no trouble ordering this part. If he does, post again and I'm sure my dealer will be glad for the business!
Joe


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: windows... (dtwphaeton)*

Thank you very much Joe, this is exactly what I was trying to find out...now its my suspicion that I received the green glass as a replacement a couple weeks ago, but do not know how to verify it...as you mentioned you also had your windshield recently replaced, can you pls tell me what the codes are on yours which are in the lower right hand corner so I can compare? I want to make sure I have the blue glass...








This issue is becoming clearer now!
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*

Hi Ed:
I also did quite a bit of investigation of this windshield issue today, along the same lines as what Joe did. I pretty much agree with what Joe said. It seems, though, that there is a silver lining in this cloud. I managed to find a 2004 V8 Phaeton that was built the same month that my 2004 W12 was built. The VIN on the V8 is 8415, the VIN on my W12 is 8349. In other words, the two cars were probably built during the same week of September 2003.
The label that is screened onto the windshield of the 2004 V8 does *NOT* have the 'IR' (infra-red) marking that all the other windshields have. I think, based on everything that we have discussed in this thread, that it is possible that VW has decided to stop stocking and/or importing two different windshields for the NAR Phaetons - but, the way they have gone about this is to drop the non-IR windshield from stock, and just supply the IR windshield to everyone. That's the only guess I can come up with, based on having seen the 2005 V8 in the showroom with the IR windshield installed (from the factory), and having seen the 2004 V8 at my dealer, without the IR windshield.
What makes me a bit more confident of this guess is that the windshield in the 2004 V8 at my dealer is not the original windshield. The windshield was replaced about a year ago - by my VW dealer - after it was hit by a rock when one of the staff were driving the car. I know that my dealer is super-meticulous, which means that it is highly likely that they put the correct windshield in the car. It's also quite likely, since they had to pay for the repair themselves, that they did not put a more expensive windshield than needed into the car.
So - I think the $64,000 question is this: Does the windshield that is presently in your car have an 'IR' marking on it? If it does, then I think it is quite probable that you have an infra-red resistant windshield. If it does not have an IR marking on it, then it is not likely that it is an infra-red resistant windshield.
The big problem with all this is that the windshields don't have a VW part number on them (due to legislation) - instead, they have an identification mark that is mandated by some legislation, and we can't find a way to decode it. The information presented in the VW parts catalog (below) is consistent with what we already know - if the production code is 4GP, that is a V8 (non-IR resistant) windshield, and if the production code is 4GN, that is a W12 (IR resistant) windshield.
Michael
*2004 Phaeton Windshields from the VW North America parts catalog*
(2005 and 2006 are exactly the same)








*Windshield on a 2004 NAR Phaeton (not the original windshield)*


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael, thanks very much for this! Its really interesting what you have discovered. I believe I have the non-ir glass as well. I have not had proper time to look over this message in detail yet. Thanks again, you're a great help!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*

Hi Ed:
No need to do much reading on the post - just check and see if you find the letters *IR* on the corner of your windshield.
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Hello, at last Diane @ PCC has gotten back to me. According to her, VW has superceded the old part number with the new listed below which is what I received. She also said that the ROW Phaeton's received different glass, and when I asked specifically about the fact that the new windshield did not have the "IR" designation from the manufacturer, she was not able to shed any light. I am convinced that there's been a mistake made, as transponders and the like which did not work with my old windshield do work with the new....According to her there is only one kind available- that which I received. She said that the code can change only if there's been a design change (highly unlikely I think) or if there's been a change in the manufacturer (which we know remains Saint Gobain)....







The change has been from R to AK...but I am not certain whether that is an I or the number 1 in front of the VW part #.....She's been unable to get any further, and I want my old glass back!







Is there anyway to go at this from the manufacturer's side? i.e. to give them what code is on the glass and see if it is indeed the laminate IR glass, despite the lack of such designation?








Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks,
Ed.
ORIGINAL GLASS VW# 3D 184 50 11R 
NEW VW # 3D 184 50 11 AK


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*

Hi Ed:
Honestly, I don't know what to say now. The only part numbers I could find in the current North American parts catalog are the ones I showed above (in the scan of the ETKA printout). The problem we have, trying to figure out what part a piece of glass is, is that the VW part number does not appear on the glass, instead, there is an industry-standard set of codes on the glass.
I am in England now, I will see if I can get a printout of the different types of glass available here (Europe) - maybe this will shed more light on the matter.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Here's a picture of the label on the windshield from Terence's car, which was built to United Kingdom specifications and shows the production code *4GN* (insulated windshield with with tinted strip and viewing window for VIN - light blue) on the build sticker. This is the same production code as the windshield on my NAR W12, and David C.'s W12.
Michael
*Terence's Windshield (UK Specification V10 TDI)*
Sorry about the poor quality of the picture - it was taken at dusk, and I had to enhance the photo a bit to show the text.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

Here's a bit of additional information, although it might confuse things rather than clarify things. These are pictures of windshields that were in stock at a large Phaeton service facility in Europe. The first two photos show an electrically heated windshield (not offered in North America), the second two photos show a windshield that is not electrically heated. You will note that the part numbers for these windshields (suffixes AK and AC) are not listed on the ETKA printout (a few posts above) of windshields that are available in North America.
Michael
*Part Number - Electrically Heated Windshield (presumed to be production code 4GG)*
















*Part Number - other European Windshield*
Production Code unknown


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_ I recently had my windshield replaced and the new one does not appear to be the same, despite the dealer apparently ordering based off my vin...

Just for the record, here is a picture of the label on the glass of Ed's windshield. We took this picture at the Chicago GTG, and after taking the picture, we parked 4 Phaetons - all with the same colour interior - side by side. Three were W12 and one was a V8. Ed's car and the V8 had the exact same windshield installed. There was an obvious difference between the (original) windshields in the other 2 W12s and the windshield in Ed's car.
So - I think it is pretty safe to conclude that Ed had a non-infrared coated windshield installed in his car.
Michael
*Ed's Windshield (non-IR)*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: windows... (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:* Related post, discussing procedures to follow when a Phaeton windshield needs to be replaced -
Cracked windshield


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## [email protected] (Feb 9, 2006)

*Re: Rear window glass - confusion about differences between Phaetons (PanEuropean)*

The pictures show the rear glass, but it seems like the posts moved to the front of the car. I just looked up a replacement, and only one rear glass is listed as a replacement part for 2004 and 2005 Phaeton's.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear window glass - confusion about differences between Phaetons (VWPartsManager)*

Hi Bud:
Ah, I guess I should have clarified things for those who have just recently started to follow this thread. The discussion began back in June of 2005, about rear window glass, and eventually we decided that the difference were we seeing was caused by the different interior colours.
The thread was then dormant for 5 months, and when the topic was raised again, it shifted over to front windshield glass. It's pretty easy to get confused - you have to look at the dates of the posts on the first page before you see where the 5 month gap was.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Rear window glass - confusion about differences between Phaetons (PanEuropean)*

Photos re-hosted.


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## Highline (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: Heated Winshield*

Hi
In the following picture, you can see some small white dots throughout the glass panel. Are those the heating elements?








I have the heated winshield in my car (and the Passat section can't help much) and I just noticed same things in my windshield, so before I bother the clueless dealer (well it will take some time till someone who has a clue can be contacted...) I thought I am asking here. 
Thanks
Altin


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Heated Winshield (Highline)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Highline* »_In the following picture, you can see some small white dots throughout the glass panel. Are those the heating elements?

No, those are perforations in the plastic bag that protects the windshield during shipping.
Michael


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## Highline (Mar 13, 2003)

Hm, back to square one then ... and to the dealer, shall catch the German dudes working there.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Window Tinting*

I was looking for a thread on Tinted windows and could not find one. I am thinking about tinting the windows on the Black Phaeton and wanted to know what percentage others had gone on their car. 
Is 20% the normal percentage. What about the windshield?
I noticed these pictures on a recent thread about the Glass factory. So I guess you can get factory tinted windows in the ROW. 

*Atelier in the GMD in Dresden*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

PanEuropean said:


> Photos re-hosted.


 Very interesting photo's Michael, 

Rather than replying to your recent posts regarding window versions in My-First-VCDS-Scans, I thought it might be better to post some more information in this thread. 

VW, modest as always, doesn’t explain too much about their windows, other than in the general Phaeton document, course number 891303. 
Fortunately, there is a very interesting document, published by Saint Gobain, explaining all technologies which it invented and some of which are applied in the Phaeton windows. 
The document describes in great detail how automotive windows are made and which technologies are available to increase thermal, visual and audible comfort and safety. 

Interesting to read is the section about “Laminated glass”, which is in fact covering all possible versions of our windows, as since a long time, no car is manufactured without laminated glass. 
What SGS refers to as “Normal Green” (which is non-IR), already has an IR transmission (TIR) coefficient of 30%, where 6% is reflected (RIR). This means that 64% of the IR energy, which is responsible for more than 50% of the heat radiation of the sun, is converted into heat by the window. The window itself therefore may feel very hot on a bright and sunny day. 
It is possible that our normal (green) windows are of the “Thermocontrol absorbing” type, with a little better figure for IR transmission but worse for reflection.  

Reading this document, I guess that the type of window which VW refers to as "Laminated" (IR), is in fact the SGS THERMOCONTROL ® Reflecting glass, with only 20% IR transmission into the cabin and 50% reflection, meaning that only 30% of the sun radiation is converted into heat by the window, about half the heat of a non- IR window.:snowcool: 

Also worth reading is the section about noise reduction. I bet that this technology is present in the P as well. 
The link to this document is here: the *Glazing Manual* 

Willem


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