# W/M ?'s



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

just got a DO kit..stage 2 with the DVC-30 controller...i wanna run 2 nozzles but not sure if thats the best thing 2 do...i plan on running APR's 100oct file, i have a 2008 passat 2.0FSI(bpy) any and all suggestions are welcome...i plan on getting a EJ TB pipe or BSH(whichever is cheaper)


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## true2liter (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: W/M ?'s (08 passat turbo)*

I ran the APR100 on my 1.8 with a single nozzle. Not too sure about the 2.0 motors. If you can use, afford extra H/W, and implement dual nozzle then there aren't any downsides. Increased cooling. Increased octane booster.


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## 04VagWagen (Dec 27, 2009)

^^ you said you ran apr 100oct on your 1.8t. im preparing and doing my homework for this system. i have the file already. With the w/m how much boost were you making? and if possible what kind of A/F ratios were you running??


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

you can run two nozzles. One directly after the TB and one down the line in the IC piping (after the IC itself).


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## dEVIL18td (Feb 17, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_you can run two nozzles. One directly after the TB and one down the line in the IC piping (after the IC itself).

Question about that, I have been told that it is pointless to have a nozzle mounted right behind the Trottle Body as the W/M has no time to properly atomize before hitting the runners


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (dEVIL18td)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dEVIL18td* »_Question about that, I have been told that it is pointless to have a nozzle mounted right behind the Trottle Body as the W/M has no time to properly atomize before hitting the runners

The nozzle is designed to atomize the fluid immediately upon its exit. Who ever told you that has a fundamental misunderstanding about how these systems work. On the other hand, if he's thinking that there will be insignificant evaporation (i.e. pre-cylinder cooling)... then, that's very true. This is desired because it allows a portion of the total spray volume to evaporate *inside* the combustion chamber. This is what boosts octane/suppreses detonation. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 04VagWagen (Dec 27, 2009)

[email protected]
You probly know ive seen your user name all over the water/meth thread.. on a 1.8t with apr 100 tune and a aem water meth, open intake,open exhaust what kind of air to fuels are people running? I talked to apr about there tunes and they generally try to get around a 12to1 af. well thats way way to rich for me. if water meth with bump it to a 14to1 or even a high number like 16 or 17to1 i can run a bigger fpr or audi tt injectors so im just trying to research before i climb into this.. all help is appreciated!!!


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (04VagWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_[email protected] on a 1.8t with apr 100 tune and a aem water meth, open intake,open exhaust what kind of air to fuels are people running?

It doesn't matter what ratios folks are running. Really, it doesn't. What matters is the optimal ratio for *your* engine set up and tune at various load levels and points across the rev range. Actual ratios seen range from as low as 11:1 up to 14.5:1, etc. Understand that AFR is a reflection of the tune itself. It's not what you tune *for*. What you tune for is mean (average) best torque.

_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_I talked to apr about there tunes and they generally try to get around a 12to1 af. well thats way way to rich for me.

Why?

_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_if water meth with bump it to a 14to1 or even a high number like 16 or 17to1 i can run a bigger fpr or audi tt injectors so im just trying to research before i climb into this.. all help is appreciated!!!

Water/meth won't bump up your air/fuel ratio by itself. What it does is allow you to safely lean out the mixture beyond what the engine would tolerate without it. Again, you should not tune according to air/fuel ratio in general and especially not when spraying water/meth. That's because water expands about 1600x as it changes phase from liquid to gas. This dilutes the exhaust gas to a point that the wideband O2 sensor delivers completely unusable information.
What you should do is pay close attention to the ECU pulling timing. Spray at that point or just before. Then turn up the boost some more until the retardation reoccurs. Repeat the process of dialing away the timing pull and then make it reappear with more boost until the spray no longer helps. Then, back off a bit and fine tune by advancing the ignition timing. Get back to that "edge" and then back off a little once again. At that point you'll be done and the car will feel like a rocket. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 04VagWagen (Dec 27, 2009)

Af is a very big factor in this equation. 
Understand that AFR is a reflection of the tune itself. It's not what you tune for.
If that was 100% true and you pulled and added timing add and subtracted fuel you still need to watch your af or youll completely melt and engine or wash cylinder rings out. and if i were to strap a water meth kit on spray it and it spikes an 18to1 af its gonna mess a few things up. maybe not the first time or the second time but how long is that gonna last thats the only reason im asking..
You asked why a 12to1 af is way to rich for me? well take a care with a 12to1 af and subtract a bunch of fuel and get it to atleast a 14to1 and see how much power you make on the dyno. depending on your setup and general factors like iat,humitity,fuel temp, engine temp. things like these your gonna make more power without even touching timing.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: (04VagWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_Af is a very big factor in this equation. 
Understand that AFR is a reflection of the tune itself. It's not what you tune for.
If that was 100% true and you pulled and added timing add and subtracted fuel you still need to watch your af or youll completely melt and engine or wash cylinder rings out. and if i were to strap a water meth kit on spray it and it spikes an 18to1 af its gonna mess a few things up. maybe not the first time or the second time but how long is that gonna last thats the only reason im asking..
You asked why a 12to1 af is way to rich for me? well take a care with a 12to1 af and subtract a bunch of fuel and get it to atleast a 14to1 and see how much power you make on the dyno. depending on your setup and general factors like iat,humitity,fuel temp, engine temp. things like these your gonna make more power without even touching timing.
u completely missed what Scott said.


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## 04VagWagen (Dec 27, 2009)

I understand what hes saying.. That a water/meth injection isnt going to effect air to fuel ratios. well i don't understand how not..your putting more air into the mix. well not more air just denser air which in turn is going to make the computer/maf read that it needs more fuel so explain how spraying water to cool intake air tempature and not adding fuel is going to help? Im not asking these questions to be a pain in anyones ass, im asking the questions on plain ignorace on how watermeth works. i know enough to know the basic principles of operations. im a mechanic. i have built race engines. and have helped tune many ecus but im very very interested in making power safely. its said water meth does that for me. so before i spend the money on it i just wanna know how it works..thanks for all your help scott and quintin both. USRT in general lol


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (04VagWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_I understand what hes saying.. That a water/meth injection isnt going to effect air to fuel ratios. 

I didn't say that. In fact, I said the very opposite:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »__...water expands about 1600x as it changes phase from liquid to gas. This dilutes the exhaust gas to a point that the wideband O2 sensor delivers completely unusable information._

We're very happy to help you and anybody else. So, I'll clarify what I'm saying. AFR is what you end up with after the tuning process. It isn't what you specifically tune *for*. For instance, you can experience detonation problems from an overly rich mixture. You can also get it from a seriously lean condition. EGT can go through the roof when the AFR is very lean. Then again, you can see that when there's too much fuel to burn in the chamber (and it combusts in the exhaust). Or, in the case of an ignition misfire you can have lots of raw fuel escape the engine. However, since the oxygen isn't burnt, you'll see it show up on the wideband as a lean condition. 
The bottom line is that AFR is the *result*... a reflection of what's going on inside the cylinder. It's worth considering during the tuning process, of course, but it isn't what you specifically attempt to achieve.

_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_so explain how spraying water to cool intake air tempature and not adding fuel is going to help?

In a boosted engine extra fuel is delivered to the cylinder to soak up heat and to make the air/fuel mixture burn more slowly. This keeps it from detonating under extreme conditions. (A rich mixture typically burns more readily but a lean mixture burns hotter once ignited.) Spraying a fine mist of water reduces intake air temperature and also slows down the combustion rate. It contributes to a higher octane rating and thusly does the same thing that race fuel does. Thusly you can lean out the air/fuel ratio and achieve a safe burn rate even when adding boost, advancing timing, and pulling fuel.


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## 04VagWagen (Dec 27, 2009)

ok, now im catching on to what your saying. so when people bolt a water/meth kit on without a boost controller,any kind of movement with timing or any adding or subtracting fuel, there really not accomplishing anything at all?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (04VagWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_ok, now im catching on to what your saying. so when people bolt a water/meth kit on without a boost controller,any kind of movement with timing or any adding or subtracting fuel, there really not accomplishing anything at all?

That's exactly correct. They're missing 95% of the possible benefits. All they're getting is some of the intake cooling to which the ECU adapts only very basically.
My recommendation is that you do a baseline log and then turn up the boost. Then, log again and analyze the effects on ignition timing. If you see no pull, turn up the boost until some retardation returns. Then, spray just before that point and watch the pull disappear. Repeat the process until you can no longer add boost and also keep the timing normal. Back off a pound of boost or so and then fine tune by tweaking ignition timing. Reach the limits there and then back off a bit on the timing to make sure things stay safe.
At that point the safe AFR (that produces mean best torque) will be substantially leaner than it was before. The ECU logs will demonstrate that everything is very happy in the combustion chambers. Again, AFR is only a reflection of what's going on inside the engine. If you tuned for AFR specifically, you'd end up with a completely wrong calibration that doesn't do what it's supposed to do with regardes to output, reliability, and drivability. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (04VagWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *04VagWagen* »_well not more air just denser air which in turn is going to make the computer/maf read that it needs more fuel

One more thing, this is a common misconception. You are correct that the air will become cooler and thusly denser when you spray water/methanol. However, the overall oxygen content of that denser air doesn't change. Also understand that the vapor/steam that's generated fills the space where that hot/not dense air was. The ECU may not see any change at all in O2 content. Thus it is not going to signal the injectors to spray more gasoline. That's especially easy to appreciate when you realize that the 50% share of methanol is fuel enrichment itself.
Bottom line: With WAI you will realize maximum safe gains by increasing boost, advancing timing, and by leaning out the air/gasoline mixture.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*

Also realize..the w/m is not sprayed before the maf...so the ecu will not "read it" ...depending on the motor setup the IAT sensor might not read it either.


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## 04VagWagen (Dec 27, 2009)

Gotcha. another question is people are injecting water meth behind there TB is the water and meth going to have enough time to cool the air before it reaches the combustion chamber?And if you injected it on the turbo side of the intercooler would it hurt the mix or evaporate/vaporize before entering the combustion camber? I know its nothing like nitrous but on a dry nitrous system its an ideal of 3 feet away from the TB for it to fully cool the intake air temperature. would that in any way relate to water/meth?


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*

Injecting behind the TB is mainly done for octane boost...to get the better cooling effects, you move it father down the boost piping. Injecting before the IC is not recommending as it could condense and puddle up making it ineffective.


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## 04VagWagen (Dec 27, 2009)

ok. gotcha. ive been checking out these systems and i see where there making universal and direct kits. what is the difference?


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*

a little more detail instructions. (wire colors to tap into etc...) In some cases nozzle sizes are tailored to the engine in question(but that can easily be figured out regardless). Also the controllers can vary...for instance the FSI engine MAF sensor sends out a digital signal (in Hz) vs a typical analog signal (0-5v)
also we supply the necessary TB plates as well for these kits...


_Modified by [email protected] at 10:54 AM 3-10-2010_


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