# TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*TEST 1 OF 3:*
_*How throttle body size affects performance on a stock AWP 1.8T engine*_.








As some of you know we have been looking into purchasing an engine dynamometer for some time to not only test X , Y & Z products but to also see where improvements could be made. Unfortunately with the way the economy was at the start of 2009 , alot of testing had to be put on hold until recently. Unitronic Chipped as the 1.8T forum sponsor offered the use of there engine dyno for our testing to truly show what can be done with these motors so I will do my best to gather the components, extract the data and present it for the VAG community as a whole.
Before I begin I want to thank Unitronic Chipped (Mike Z. & Mike S.) for allowing me to use their DTS Engine Dynamo-meter and SEM Motorsport team (Marco & Donato) for providing the intake manifolds to conduct this test.
Everyone involved was nothing but professional and courteous.In the future I will be providing alot more data and accurate dyno's with their help.
This is where all the magic happens:








When I arrived at Unitronic Chipped HQ'ers in Laval Quebec, Mike Z.had already done a couple of pulls with the 80mm Dodge Hemi throttle body and was using this as the base for our test.The good thing about doing these tests on an engine dynamometer is that swapping throttle bodies took minutes and simple tweaking of the maps by Mike allowed maximum gains to be had with each pull for each TB.
These tests were conducted under a "what you see is what you get" mindset. Even we were surprised by some of the results and I hope you are too... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/biggrinsanta.gif" BORDER="0">

_Onto the show:_

_Quote, originally posted by *Unitronic 1.8T Engine Spec* »_
* Stock AWP "Small port" 1.8T Engine
* Panchi 144/19mm drop in connecting rods
* SEM Motorsport small port intake manifold + 80 x 80 throttle body plate
* Custom tubular v-band manifold
* GT3071R w/ TiAL v-band 0.63 A/R turbine housing
* TiAL 38mm MVS wastegate
* Unitronic Chipped BT 18deg file



All throttle bodies were tested doing 2 pulls at 1 bar and 1.5 bar respectively. 1 bar being wastegate pressure of 14.7psi (was actually 17psi due to the SEM manifold) and 1.5bar being controlled with a greddy unit (22psi).Below is a recording of peak power made in each dyno run using the SEM small port manifold & the respective throttle body. For reference we have included what the same engine made utilizing a stock AWP manifold and throttle body.
For this test the following nomenclature represents each throttle body.
*80mm* = Dodge Hemi 5.7L
*75mm* = Audi B5 RS4 2.7L - TT
*70mm* = Mercedes-Benz C320 – 3.2L
*65mm* = Audi B5 S4 – 2.7L / VW Golf & Jetta 2.8 24V VR6 
*60mm* = Volkswagen Passat B5 1.8T

*Cross Section Area’s of the throttle plates / Percentage increase % over stock 60mm unit*
*80mm* = 5026 mm2 / +77.7%
*75mm* = 4417 mm2 / +56.3%
*70mm* = 3848 mm2 / +36.1%
*65mm* = 3318 mm2 / +17.4%
*60mm* = 2827 mm2 / +0%

*TESTS:*
*HORSEPOWER / correctedhp*
*BOOST : Wastegate pressure - 17PSI*
*80mm:* = 388.9 hp @ 7300 rpm
*75mm:* = 390 hp @ ?
*70mm:* = 383 hp @ 7200 rpm
*65mm:* = 378 hp @ 6500 rpm
*60mm:* = 374 hp @ 6700 rpm
*BOOST - 22SI*
*80mm:* = 451 @ 6700 rpm
*75mm:* = 447 hp @ ?
*70mm:* = 447 hp @ 6700 rpm
*65mm:* = 430 hp @ 6800 rpm
*60mm:* = 439 hp @ 6800 rpm
*STOCK AWP Manifold + 60mm:* = 421 hp @ 7100 rpm

*TORQUE / lb-ft*
*BOOST : Wastegate pressure - 17PSI*
*80mm:* = 322 lb-ft @ 5600 rpm
*75mm:* = 333 lb-ft @ ?
*70mm:* = 318 lb-ft @ 5600 rpm
*65mm:* = 320 lb-ft @ 5800 rpm
*60mm:* = 312 lb-ft @ 5700 rpm
*BOOST - 22SI*
*80mm:* = 380 lb-ft @ 5500 rpm
*75mm:* = 382 lb-ft @ ?
*70mm:* = 374 lb-ft @ 5600 rpm
*65mm:* = 369 lb-ft @ 5600 rpm
*60mm:* = 371 lb-ft @ 5600 rpm
*STOCK AWP Manifold + 60mm:* = 365 lb-ft @ 5100 rpm

*NOTES:*
*80mm:*
As expected on the 80mm unit, the most power was developed, great throttle body for an all out drag car.








*75mm:*
RS4 throttle body results were very surprising, the 75mm unit made more power at WG pressure, had better idle and better response than the 80mm unit.








*70mm:*
This unit relieved the chope point noted in smaller throttle bodies. 
Power gains were also noted above wastegate pressure noted.








*65mm:*
Also we noted that a choke point was created at 7000 rpm’s. Engine response became sluggish and timing was pulled to compensate for choke point created due to too small a throttle plate.








*60mm:*
This is the throttle body that I believe a lot of big turbo users need to keep an eye on. What could be timing being pulled due to a “bad tune” could be associated with too small a throttle body. At 6900 rpm’s it was literally like hitting a brick wall. Engine started to choke and detonation was being detected.









*CONCLUSIONS:*
*1.* If you are running a turbocharger rated for 450hp or more , then it is highly recommended to have a throttle body greater than 65mm.We expected the results to be amplified had the motor been built with a larger ported cylinder head (AEB/AJL/ADR).
*2.* For 99.99% of the 1.8T users, a 70mm / 75mm DBW throttle body will more than suite your needs.
*3.* If you are a user with a home brew or custom intake manifold with a larger plenum and you are running a stock 60mm throttle body then you are actually hurting performance rather than helping and it is recommended you get an upgrade. Same applies for users running an SEM motorsport intake manifold and a 60mm OEM throttle body.
*4.* Throttle body adaptations can only get you so far. Every single one of these throttle bodies needed the map to be tweaked. In no situation was it a simple “plug and go” . Some might get away with lemiwinks whereas others will have to look into an entire motronic retune.
p.s. I am waiting on [email protected] to provide the raw data so I can export to an excel file to give you a comparison all on 1 dyno graph.
*For all the images of the dyno day click here.*
If you are interested in Unitronic Chipped Services click the banner below:

Thanks,
Issam



_Modified by Issam Abed at 5:38 PM 1-15-2010_


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Really nice info! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 50trim S (Jun 3, 2008)

how much is the 75mm unit?
I know the 80 mm unit can be had for cheap, but how did the engine run with a throttle body that bi
is the 75mm what you would reccomend for a DD or street car with a BT?
what size intercooler piping was used?
thanks for the great tech info
would you care to post the dyno's with the tq and hp overlaid, to see the difference in the overall curves



_Modified by 50trim S at 3:23 AM 12-18-2009_


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

thanks for the testing.


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

Good stuff, nice work.


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## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

Thanks for all this work and testing!!!


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## XrightcoastdriverX (Mar 21, 2003)

This is great stuff! Thanks Issam. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
What's the ETA for the intake manifold testing?


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

Great effort to INA and Unitronic http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

*FV-QR*

What size IC plumbing? Offhand, but what size is an obd2 VR throttle body? 68mm?


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

IC Plumbing is 2.5" OD In & Out


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## themachasy (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*









Why would anyone run an 80mm throttle body with a necked down reducer like that? The others seem just fine with it, but this seems a bit strange for that big of a tb? Otherwise good work!
The only other thing is I'd like to see results on a big port intake manifold/head and bigger turbo. I think these are not good tests on the 80mm, but good on everything else.
Personally I still prefer the 80mm t-body as its so much cheaper than any of the others, but thats me










_Modified by themachasy at 5:13 AM 12-18-2009_


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## NYEuroTuner (Feb 4, 2008)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (themachasy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *themachasy* »_ 
Why would anyone run an 80mm throttle body with a necked down reducer like that? The others seem just fine with it, but this seems a bit strange for that big of a tb? Otherwise good work!
The only other thing is I'd like to see results on a big port intake manifold/head and bigger turbo. I think these are not good tests on the 80mm, but good on everything else.
Personally I still prefer the 80mm t-body as its so much cheaper than any of the others, but thats me [IMG]http://www.vwvortex.com/zeroforum_graphics/biggrinsanta.gif 

_Modified by themachasy at 5:13 AM 12-18-2009_

The configuration is based on common general setups. But yes I agree.


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## yohimbe (Jun 13, 2005)

*Re: (NYEuroTuner)*

I am curious how the different power curves would look all together, do I have a change in powerband (worse low end, better top end, only a peak in power at xy rpm ..)


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (yohimbe)*

Check the 2nd page of Gallery Linked Above: DYNO - 70mm-D93 65mm - D99 60mm 22WG comp










_Modified by [email protected] at 8:29 AM 12-18-2009_


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## Mr.V-Dub (Jun 4, 2007)

Damn Nice Info!!! They Weren't Lyin' (Ina) When They Said Info Soon.







Good work!!!


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## NOLA_VDubber (May 24, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

great stuff! The cheers for all involved







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

whats test 2 and 3 respectively


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## jc_bb (Sep 27, 2005)

interesting to see a 5mm increase from 60-65mm show a drop in power at 22psi


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## weenerdog3443 (Jul 5, 2007)

now how is that affected on the stock intake manifold with a BT setup


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## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

where does a vr6 throttle body fit in this?


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## corradogirlie (Jul 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

neat stuff..... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

I wonder how the difference between the 75mm vs. the 80mm would be affected by a big-port head and a 2.0 instead of the small-port 1.8...I already have the Hemi TB so I'm pulling for the extra air(flow) to make up for the difference


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

Great comparison guys!! Thanks Issam and Uni for getting this data for us 1.8ters! Greatly appreciated








Any chance we can see the different dyno plots overlayed? Also, how many dynos were taken on each setup? It would be interesting to see if some of those peak HP values are in the noise


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## XrightcoastdriverX (Mar 21, 2003)

*Re: (transient_analysis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *transient_analysis* »_Any chance we can see the different dyno plots overlayed? Also, how many dynos were taken on each setup? It would be interesting to see if some of those peak HP values are in the noise









It is being worked on.
From first post:

_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
p.s. I am waiting on [email protected] to provide the raw data so I can export to an excel file to give you a comparison all on 1 dyno graph.


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## -=GTI=- Zach (Sep 16, 2007)

*Re: (transient_analysis)*

Any chance at someone helping me understand how the 65mm lost power at 1.5 bar? I wonder how the 68mm would have fared.
Thank you Issam and Unitronic folks for doing this research and publishing it here for us to learn from.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (l88m22vette)*


_Quote, originally posted by *themachasy* »_I think these are not good tests on the 80mm, but good on everything else.

2.5" intercooler piping will support 600hp.

_Quote, originally posted by *GLI_jetta* »_where does a vr6 throttle body fit in this?

I am going to assume OBD-II DBW from MKIV AFP which is the exact same 65mm unit found on the S4.Only difference is a couple of breather hoses.

_Quote, originally posted by *l88m22vette* »_I wonder how the difference between the 75mm vs. the 80mm would be affected by a big-port head and a 2.0 instead of the small-port 1.8...I already have the Hemi TB so I'm pulling for the extra air(flow) to make up for the difference









Will have that for you soon.

_Quote, originally posted by *badger5* »_whats test 2 and 3 respectively

TEST 2 and TEST 3 will be using fixed variables from this test to test other components.
So test 2 will have a fixed throttle body size and manipulating intake manifold configurations.

_Quote, originally posted by *weenerdog3443* »_now how is that affected on the stock intake manifold with a BT setup 

Funny enough, this kind of shows what was happening when we bolted a 65/70mm DBW throttle body onto a stock manifold and was seeing a 8-9hp gain.


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## bjtgtr (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

Great work Issam http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
is the 75mm unit form the RS4 the same as the R32 TB?
ps: I like the catch can set up


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## Teknojnky (Jun 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I had heard of uni's new place and engine dyno room, it's nice to see some pictures now.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Teknojnky)*

Nice clean dyno setup there. I am surprised that you don't use an air/water IC though. It's hard to hold temps on the dyno without one. 
And can you elaborate on the changes made to the different tunes. 
Adding a degree of timing could account for all the gains listed.


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## [email protected] (Nov 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Teknojnky* »_I had heard of uni's new place and engine dyno room, it's nice to see some pictures now.

will be posting a cool promo vid in alil bit!

_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Nice clean dyno setup there. I am surprised that you don't use an air/water IC though. It's hard to hold temps on the dyno without one. 
And can you elaborate on the changes made to the different tunes. 
Adding a degree of timing could account for all the gains listed. 


No timing changes as listed above, all used the same 18deg file, we only made corrections in fueling were need for the difference in airflow/ amount due to larger tb.

thanx again to Issam, cool finally meeting you http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bjtgtr* »_Great work Issam http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
is the 75mm unit form the RS4 the same as the R32 TB?

Similar.They both have the same throttle plate dimensions but are manufactured by different companies and have a different bolt pattern format.
I have a couple of these for sale if anyone is interested....
















_Quote, originally posted by *bjtgtr* »_
ps: I like the catch can set up









Pepsi bottle worked like a champ!









_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
And can you elaborate on the changes made to the different tunes. 
Adding a degree of timing could account for all the gains listed. 


No timing was added as only fueling was calibrated.

_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Nice clean dyno setup there. I am surprised that you don't use an air/water IC though. It's hard to hold temps on the dyno without one. 

You would be surprised.Outside temperature was about - 8*C without the windchill and INSIDE the dyno room was colder.The intercooler was ice cold to touch.
Reasoning for air to air was he wanted to mimic what everyone out there is running.With an air to water intercooler , people would start judging the results.


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Very cool info!


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## Blu--Pearl (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bootymac)*

i want one xmas gift for the pearl http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bjtgtr (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
I have a couple of these for sale if anyone is interested....

















You know I'm interested. Just need to come up with a few more $'s. 
once again very nice test. Perhaps a AEB headed unit could be used for the next round of testing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Blu--Pearl)*

very cool info!! moving into the future gathering info and doing research. good to see you guys pushing the limits and obtaining useful knowledge for us.
2.5 intercooler piping, awic and 80mm here. i love it. wicked throttle body response, smooottth up top.
thanks guys


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

What size is the R32 throttle body?
Reason I ask is I have an APR stg3 tune w/ gt28r and APR says their tune works great with that TB. I am planning for a new intake mani + tb, but am really conflicted on what to get :-/


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

*FV-QR*

FWIW, throttle response is essentially a map in the ecu which can be tuned, so some of that low throttle % sensitivity could be tuned out. Much like making a nonlinear cable wheel. 
Very good testing guys and a beautiful test cell you have there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## paxter (Dec 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (bjtgtr)*

nice info THANKS !!!!!


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## 2001TTransport (Sep 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (paxter)*

Issam, 
This is great data, we really appreciate it. I've been running around on a R32 TB and wondered about switching to the 80mm if my current TB ever fails, these data points help.


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## bjtgtr (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (groggory)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groggory* »_What size is the R32 throttle body?
Reason I ask is I have an APR stg3 tune w/ gt28r and APR says their tune works great with that TB. I am planning for a new intake mani + tb, but am really conflicted on what to get :-/

75mm


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

Wow great info thanks for doing this! Makes me happy to have the Rs4 TB on my car.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

So is an OBD2 VR throttle body 70mm?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (screwball)*


_Quote, originally posted by *screwball* »_So is an OBD2 VR throttle body 70mm?

65mm

_Quote, originally posted by *bjtgtr* »_
once again very nice test. Perhaps a AEB headed unit could be used for the next round of testing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Possibly in test 3.
Seeing how the exact hardware would work on different 1.8T motors.
These tests are just to gauge where we should see gains and losses.It should be used as a benchmark for your own decision making.

_Quote, originally posted by *bjtgtr* »_75mm

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Audi B5 RS4
Volkswagen Golf MKIV & MKV R32
Volkswagen Passat B6 3.6
All have a 75mm throttle plate. There are more in the volkswagen group but these are essentially the most common ones. 
Food for thought though...
NEW 70mm TB = 229 USD 
NEW 75mm TB = 468 USD


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

Finally some real 1.8t tech in the 1.8t tech forum !!
Hands down to Issam, a real enthusiast providing the best service


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

*Ok more Dyno's*

_Quote »_
* Stock AWP "Small port" 1.8T Engine
* Panchi 144/19mm drop in connecting rods
* SEM Motorsport small port intake manifold + 80 x 80 throttle body plate
* 80mm Dodge Hemi throttle body
* Custom tubular v-band manifold
* GT3071R w/ TiAL v-band 0.63 A/R turbine housing
* TiAL 38mm MVS wastegate
* Unitronic Chipped BT 18deg file
* 25 PSI TEST


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*

awsome info! exactly what i've been wanting to see!!


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## themachasy (Jan 28, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
2.5" intercooler piping will support 600hp.


Thats not the point. You're necking down the pipe right in front of the throttle body. Sort of unfair for the 80mm.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (themachasy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *themachasy* »_
Thats not the point. You're necking down the pipe right in front of the throttle body. Sort of unfair for the 80mm.

And the 75mm and the 70mm....they were ALL "necked down"
It is what it is.


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## corradogirlie (Jul 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *themachasy* »_
Thats not the point. You're necking down the pipe right in front of the throttle body. Sort of unfair for the 80mm.


since the flow goes INTO the TB, it is expanded UP IN SIZE. thus, the piping is the small cross section of the system. and since nobody in their right mind would run 3.5" IC piping, the 80mm TB will do just fine. oh wait, *i run 3.5" piping to my AWIC..... as my turbo is that size on the compressor outlet.*
the same reason that people run 2.5" into the FMIC and 3" out of the FMIC.... to help reclaim a little bit of the pressure drop across the core. as long as its going upwards in size from the source, i personally do not see a disadvantage.
but i am nobody, dont take my word for anything....


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

It's so weird to see gains across all of the TBs except the 65mm one. Strange. Apparently they just fail at existing.


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
And the 75mm and the 70mm....they were ALL "necked down"
It is what it is.









Someone's mad they bought an 80mm TB? lol


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (themachasy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *themachasy* »_








Why would anyone run an 80mm throttle body with a necked down reducer like that? i]


I was kind of thinking similar thoughts...I personally run an 80mm TB and have 2.5" intercooler piping into the intercooler and 2.75" into the TB...transition is far less with just a 1/4" larger piping.








I do however have major throttle issues with this TB...UNI has had and still has my ECU trying to figure things out and get the issue fixed.


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*

Also, out of curiosity, why is the 80mm mounted with the throttle plate opening vertically, whereas all the other Tthrottle bodies are mounted with the throttle plate opening horizontally? I thought I remember reading somewhere that this does make a difference how air is delivered into the runners...


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## corradogirlie (Jul 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

but it is not a NECK DOWN, guys..... flow goes INTO THE TB!!!! not from the TB into the piping, thru the IC, and into the turbo. so its a step up in size!

necking down would be a restriction, and an example of that would be 4" IC piping into a 70mm TB. thats a neckdown.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (corradogirlie)*

awesome info Isaam.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

*FV-QR*

I listed 65mm to Uni for flashing. If I go bigger it looks like I'll need to get an update to make use of it.


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## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

I'm using a 65mm vr TB for a 2l aeb + SEM etc... now wondering if i made a mistake....


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

*FV-QR*

I assumed I'd want something nearly the same size as the rest of my plumbing (2.5" - 2" outlet on my turbo)... guess not...


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## 04 GLI Luva (May 30, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (screwball)*

What are test 2 and 3 going to be?
Tubi vs cast?
aeb vs ported awp?


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## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (04 GLI Luva)*

Great info, as always, Issam.


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## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (inivid)*

Nice work guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (IMAN973)*

Great Job Issam..and the UNI guys!















I have a feeling 2010 is gonna be a good year for software

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## Corradokcid (Nov 6, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (vdubguy97)*

bump good data....this is the kinda stuff i love to read


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## baileysjetta (Feb 22, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Corradokcid)*

i run r32 throttle body and Hosetechnics makes a 3.150 id silicone hose that fits perfectly onto the throttle body running 2.5 hot side plumbing and 3in. cold side plumbing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif on a monster large port


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *04VDubGLI* »_It's so weird to see gains across all of the TBs except the 65mm one. Strange. Apparently they just fail at existing.


yea this i dont understand....can we see the curve comparison between the 60mm and 65mm?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *04 GLI Luva* »_What are test 2 and 3 going to be?
Tubi vs cast?
aeb vs ported awp?










Test 2 will be based on the throttle body being the fixed variable....what that includes I will not say at this time...what I can say is support vendors that support you.









_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
yea this i dont understand....can we see the curve comparison between the 60mm and 65mm?

When I have the raw data that I can import into excel and generate a graph for you guys I will.For now the images of the dyno graphs will have to do...









_Quote, originally posted by *GLI_jetta* »_I'm using a 65mm vr TB for a 2l aeb + SEM etc... now wondering if i made a mistake....

Go with the 70mm unit.Send me an email. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwalker1.8* »_Also, out of curiosity, why is the 80mm mounted with the throttle plate opening vertically, whereas all the other Tthrottle bodies are mounted with the throttle plate opening horizontally? I thought I remember reading somewhere that this does make a difference how air is delivered into the runners...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwalker1.8* »_Also, out of curiosity, why is the 80mm mounted with the throttle plate opening vertically, whereas all the other Tthrottle bodies are mounted with the throttle plate opening horizontally? I thought I remember reading somewhere that this does make a difference how air is delivered into the runners...









Sorry did not see this...
The only issue I came across with respect to throttle body rotation was the creation of "blips" .It made no difference in the peak power numbers. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

No problem... Well, Uni has had my ecu for a while trying to fix my 80mm tb issues...technically trying to fix it for 5 months now...You are saying the "blips" were noticed under the 80mm's orientation I would assume? I have mine orientated as my pic shows. Is this the way I should orientate it? Thanks again for a good test. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by jwalker1.8 at 3:30 PM 12-20-2009_


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*

Maybe I am interpreting the word "blips" incorrectly, but it sounds like hiccups or stumbles???


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*

On a driver's side manifold the throttle body actuator housing should be on the bottom, so the butterfly opens toward the front of the car and lets air into the plenum opposite the runners _first_ - it fills the plenum more evenly, which fills the runners more evenly


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (l88m22vette)*


_Quote, originally posted by *l88m22vette* »_On a driver's side manifold the throttle body actuator housing should be on the bottom, so the butterfly opens toward the front of the car and lets air into the plenum opposite the runners _first_ - it fills the plenum more evenly, which fills the runners more evenly

So based on this I am to assume the 80mm test was the only one with the "correct" orientation? The pic below is the way all the test were done, except the 80mm...My car's TB is orientated the same as the test TB in the below pic.









EDIT: Mine










_Modified by jwalker1.8 at 3:52 PM 12-20-2009_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*

Try orienting it so that the connector now faces the firewall and not the bonnet. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

if the pictures are correct, why the different orientation on a couple of pictures on the t'bodies?
Any dyno's of changing the orientation?
I know DonR reccommended to me the black portion of the body was downward.


----------



## BoostinBejan (Apr 13, 2009)

*Re: (badger5)*

I run mine so the throttle plate opens up towards the front of the plenum. For example, stock throttle body = big black plastic part is facing up.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (badger5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *badger5* »_if the pictures are correct, why the different orientation on a couple of pictures on the t'bodies?
Any dyno's of changing the orientation?
I know DonR reccommended to me the black portion of the body was downward.


Same orientation of the throttle body for all the tests. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

the orientation wont make any difference during WOT. it's only going to change things during throttle roll on. imo


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Same orientation of the throttle body for all the tests. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

ok cool
were or is there any tests done on a particular body to show any difference between orientation. not just peak numbers but overlay comparisons across the rev range
thx


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*

You can see below how the TB needs to be on a _driver's side_ intake manifold, whereas Bejan's passenger side mani has the black actuator cover (as seen in the pic jwalker posted) pointing toward the hood


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (badger5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *badger5* »_
were or is there any tests done on a particular body to show any difference between orientation. not just peak numbers but overlay comparisons across the rev range

I will try and get these for you Bill


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

^ I know there was also a discussion thread about TB orientation a little while back, but I couldn't find it...try searching in this forum


----------



## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

TB opens clockwise and DonR suggested that its mounted vertically so when it opens most of flow goes against intake manifold wall... so tb motor goes down under intake manifold, this is how i have mine mounted...


----------



## BoostinBejan (Apr 13, 2009)

*Re: (mescaline)*

Right, you want it opening towards the front of the car and towards the runner/cylinder farthest away from TB. I think


----------



## krazy1.8 (Dec 22, 2009)

*Re: (BoostinBejan)*

is there a 90?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (krazy1.8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *krazy1.8* »_is there a 90?

Yes there is http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_

When I have the raw data that I can import into excel and generate a graph for you guys I will.For now the images of the dyno graphs will have to do... 


i look forward to it soon...


----------



## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: (BoostinBejan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BoostinBejan* »_Right, you want it opening towards the front of the car and towards the runner/cylinder farthest away from TB. I think

thats what I was told and how mine is positioned...


----------



## coreyj (Aug 18, 2006)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

What about the factory style 85mm TB? 
























v8's are fun


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
I will try and get these for you Bill









cool http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (coreyj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *coreyj* »_What about the factory style 85mm TB? 


That is 82mm


----------



## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

nice it seems that the 75mm is the sweet spot tb


----------



## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

sweet spot is whatever gives you the most power


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (theswoleguy)*

^ for a small-port/1.8 - I'm really pulling for some BP/2.0 content
I have a pile of engine parts waiting to become just that Issam, do you need to borrow some parts to get you motivated?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (l88m22vette)*


_Quote, originally posted by *l88m22vette* »_ do you need to borrow some parts to get you motivated?
















That TT
ship it over

_Quote, originally posted by *theswoleguy* »_nice it seems that the 75mm is the sweet spot tb

Yup
It is a very nice throttle body but for the price involved most people prefer the 70mm especially when you show them the diff.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

Uh, yea, about that money situation...its slow going















edit: 7000th post!


















_Modified by l88m22vette at 12:36 PM 12-23-2009_


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (l88m22vette)*

Heard about the issues with the engine dyno and the crank pulley...Hope the testing is back up and running soon!


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_

*For all the images of the dyno day click here.*


so, why isnt there a single slide for the 75mm TB in that link?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (cincyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cincyTT* »_
so, why isnt there a single slide for the 75mm TB in that link?









Waiting on Lavi to send over the missing information.
For now we know the 75mm is the best performer.


----------



## NYEuroTuner (Feb 4, 2008)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Bravo Malaka


----------



## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (NYEuroTuner)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif tagged for info


----------



## Blu--Pearl (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: (ANT THE KNEE)*

well so far i got my s4 TB that will have to do. for now


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Blu--Pearl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Blu--Pearl* »_well so far i got my s4 TB that will have to do. for now









What part #?


----------



## Blu--Pearl (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

not sure which one is the part number but here are all the numbers on it. Also i pluged it up to the car and press the gas and it opens http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif im guessing it works 

#078 133 062 
# bosch 0 280 750 003


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Waiting on Lavi to send over the missing information.


come on lavi!!!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Blu--Pearl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Blu--Pearl* »_not sure which one is the part number but here are all the numbers on it. Also i pluged it up to the car and press the gas and it opens http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif im guessing it works 

#078 133 062 
# bosch 0 280 750 003 

Funny enough is that part # got superceeded.
Can you tell me if yours measures 65mm or 70mm?


----------



## Blu--Pearl (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

its a 70mm http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Blu--Pearl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Blu--Pearl* »_its a 70mm http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Perfect!
This was a discrepancy between the S4 throttle bodies but thanks for confirming what I have here. Just for the record there are actually 2 S4 DBW throttle bodies.
The one used in this test was a 65mm unit.The 2001+ S4's & Allroad's have a 70mm unit similar to the Mercedes-Benz unit.


----------



## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

wow lots of good info here thanks!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (carsluTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *carsluTT* »_wow lots of good info here thanks!

Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
*Cross Section Area’s of the throttle plates / Percentage increase % over stock 60mm unit*
*80mm* = 5026 mm2 / +43.8%
*75mm* = 4417 mm2 / +35.9%
*70mm* = 3848 mm2 / +26.5%
*65mm* = 3318 mm2 / +14.7%
*60mm* = 2827 mm2 / +0%


2827 + (43.8% of 2827) = 4065, I have no idea who calculated this but it's incorrect... it's around 77.7% increase over stock one..


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (mescaline)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mescaline* »_
2827 + (43.8% of 2827) = 4065, I have no idea who calculated this but it's incorrect... it's around 77.7% increase over stock one..
Thanks
fixed
how is that R32 Throttle body working?


----------



## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

didn't get it and don't really think about getting it... hemi one works good ...just trying to get it to work mafless, obviously it will flow a lot more than stock one so when maf is disconnected it has some issues, with MAF connected it's stock-like.
I got Maestro and i am trying to tweak some stuff: http://eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41
It would be cool if more people that use Maestro start digging into stuff, it's very cool but docs/descriptions are pretty limited.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (mescaline)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mescaline* »_didn't get it and don't really think about getting it... hemi one works good ...just trying to get it to work mafless, obviously it will flow a lot more than stock one so when maf is disconnected it has some issues, with MAF connected it's stock-like.
I got Maestro and i am trying to tweak some stuff: http://eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41
It would be cool if more people that use Maestro start digging into stuff, it's very cool but docs/descriptions are pretty limited.

Ok let me know


----------



## coreyj (Aug 18, 2006)

*Re: (mescaline)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mescaline* »_didn't get it and don't really think about getting it... hemi one works good ...just trying to get it to work mafless, obviously it will flow a lot more than stock one so when maf is disconnected it has some issues, with MAF connected it's stock-like.
I got Maestro and i am trying to tweak some stuff: http://eurodyne.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41
It would be cool if more people that use Maestro start digging into stuff, it's very cool but docs/descriptions are pretty limited.

if you figure out the correct setting for the TB. im me a link to a screen shot of the settings. im am about to switch to 80mm and im also mafless.


----------



## technician (Jun 29, 2009)

*Re: (coreyj)*

What do you do with the coolant nipples on the R32 TB when your using in on a BT 1.8t? do those need to be routed or can they be omitted?


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: (technician)*

They are not needed. Many cars come with them and people remove them


----------



## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (groggory)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groggory* »_...
Reason I ask is I have an APR stg3 tune w/ gt28r and APR says their tune works great with that TB. I am planning for a new intake mani + tb, but am really conflicted on what to get :-/

Above tests were performed using a GT3071R which is a significantly larger turbo than a 2560R. As Don R, Issam and others have stated in the SEM Manifold thread; Intake manifold plenum volume and TB diameter should be matched together in order to achieve max efficiency. While the SEM manifold is the best engineered manifold available, the 2L plenum volume will be a challenge for a smaller turbo. 
I was in the same boat as you after buying a GT28R. The extra volume of a large intake (almost 2L SEM) and or head setup would be a challenge in building boost low in the RPM's. Got a GT2871R instead on the advice of others with first hand experince. While I wanted the SEM mani with 80mm TB, I was sure a 75mm TB would be more efficient in lower RPM's. Ended up finding an APR manifold with 75mm TB which should work well to keep the flow up put also pressure. 
This theory was shown out in the tests. IMHO, the results will change in favour of the 80mm TB once a 3076/3576 is tested using the SEM manifold. 
70mm/75mm with APR or RMR manifold for a GT28R. IMHO.
Maybe Don R, Wizzard of Od or Issam will chime in.
GL on your upgrades.

_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Possibly in test 3.
Seeing how the exact hardware would work on different 1.8T motors.
These tests are just to gauge where we should see gains and losses.It should be used as a benchmark for your own decision making.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
....









Looking forward to the AEB head test. The numbers should prove to be interesting. 
Maybe Unitronic and Mike S will break in my motor to test the AEB head with APR manifold before it goes into the Rado.















Keep up the good work Issam, this is the type of fact that puts an end to all the speculation... well its the poor-tex, most of it.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by G-radoT at 3:42 PM 1-24-2010_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (G-radoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *technician* »_What do you do with the coolant nipples on the R32 TB when your using in on a BT 1.8t? do those need to be routed or can they be omitted?

Get a channel lock and pull them out.They are no longer needed as your throttle body is not hanging over a hot exhaust manifold.

_Quote, originally posted by *G-radoT* »_
This theory was shown out in the tests. IMHO, the results will change in favour of the 80mm TB once a 3076/3576 is tested using the SEM manifold. 

Yup,
change the system and expect to see a change in results.I would expect similar results on a 3076R but a 3582R or 3586R I would expect to see the 80mm unit shine.Unfortunately not many people like driving around a 600+whp FWD car....once you are beyond 500whp in a FWD chassis I put you in the "drag" category.
The intake manifold tests are going to take a little longer than expected because I have to round up the manifolds myself.If anyone wants to help it would be greatly appreciated.








I am going to be going over the dyno's tonight and manually importing the #'s into excel to plot on a dynograph.Should really help give people a visual.


----------



## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_ The intake manifold tests are going to take a little longer than expected because I have to round up the manifolds myself. If anyone wants to help it would be greatly appreciated.








 
Issam check your mail


----------



## XrightcoastdriverX (Mar 21, 2003)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Perfect!
This was a discrepancy between the S4 throttle bodies but thanks for confirming what I have here. Just for the record there are actually 2 S4 DBW throttle bodies.
The one used in this test was a 65mm unit.The 2001+ S4's & Allroad's have a 70mm unit similar to the Mercedes-Benz unit.



Interesting. I had no idea. Guess that clears up the confusion the other month...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (XrightcoastdriverX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G-radoT* »_ 
Issam check your mail

Thanks so much for that.
So far I have the following manifolds:
* WRC Skoda unit
* APR 
* SEM bigport / 80
* AWP passenger side manifold
* BAM driver side manifold
* INA custom transverse manifold
* INA longitudinal manifold
* Apikol manifold
* RMR manifold
I need an ABD manifold & whatever else you guys can contribute.This project has allready reached its budget....


----------



## XrightcoastdriverX (Mar 21, 2003)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Thanks so much for that.
So far I have the following manifolds:
* WRC Skoda unit
* APR 
* SEM bigport / 80
* AWP passenger side manifold
* BAM driver side manifold
* INA custom transverse manifold
* INA longitudinal manifold
* Apikol manifold
* RMR manifold
I need an ABD manifold & whatever else you guys can contribute.This project has allready reached its budget....









I can't wait!


----------



## technician (Jun 29, 2009)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Perfect!
This was a discrepancy between the S4 throttle bodies but thanks for confirming what I have here. Just for the record there are actually 2 S4 DBW throttle bodies.
The one used in this test was a 65mm unit.The 2001+ S4's & Allroad's have a 70mm unit similar to the Mercedes-Benz unit.


That's interesting, the 2000 A6 2.7t runs a 75mm. You'd think that the 2.7t's would run the same TB....


----------



## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Thanks so much for that.
So far I have the following manifolds:
* WRC Skoda unit
* APR 
* SEM bigport / 80
* AWP passenger side manifold
* BAM driver side manifold
* INA custom transverse manifold
* INA longitudinal manifold
* Apikol manifold
* RMR manifold
I need an ABD manifold & whatever else you guys can contribute.This project has allready reached its budget....









The APR is with the 75mm TB or other? Will it be tested with an 80mm TB as well?
Would be interesting to test the APR and it's smaller plenum and obstructed runners against the SEM in the SEM's sandbox. 
Keep us in the loop! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (G-radoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G-radoT* »_
Will it be tested with an 80mm TB as well?
Would be interesting to test the APR and it's smaller plenum and obstructed runners against the SEM in the SEM's sandbox. 
Keep us in the loop! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I have an adapter for an 80mm to go onto an APR mani...Pic
80mm TB is for sale...This throttle plate is just sitting in the garage...pain in the ass to cut off the old throttle body adapter the previous owner had welded on


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (G-radoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *technician* »_
That's interesting, the 2000 A6 2.7t runs a 75mm. You'd think that the 2.7t's would run the same TB....

I have heard about this from others but never confirmed it.Unfortunately parts are being superceeded now so it is making it hard to confirm.

_Quote, originally posted by *G-radoT* »_
The APR is with the 75mm TB or other? Will it be tested with an 80mm TB as well?
Would be interesting to test the APR and it's smaller plenum and obstructed runners against the SEM in the SEM's sandbox.

APR manifolds are flanged for RS4 throttle bodies with a 75mm opening. Similar to the R32 but you need to change the bolt pattern.It is pretty much impossible to make a decent adapter plate for the stock 60 x 60 bolt pattern to work with a 75mm throttle body regardless of the bolt pattern so the only way to maintain consistency across the board was to conduct the tests using the 70mm unit.


----------



## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
... APR manifolds are flanged for RS4 throttle bodies with a 75mm opening. Similar to the R32 but you need to change the bolt pattern.
...the only way to maintain consistency across the board was to conduct the tests using the 70mm unit.

Poop. 80mm vs 80mm with a BT would have been interesting, however not applicable to me. Curious all the same.


----------



## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (jwalker1.8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwalker1.8* »_ I have an adapter for an 80mm to go onto an APR mani...
80mm TB is for sale... 
This throttle plate is just sitting in the garage. PITA to cut off the old throttle body adapter the previous owner had welded on









Did you already try the 80mm on your application? What TB you going to run?
What size Turbo you running? (Something with a T25/T28?)


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

*FV-QR*

Any timeline on the rest of the tests?


----------



## gtimitch (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (screwball)*

Since you guys are in such a wonderful identifying mood -- please help me identify the TM I have. It measures 82mm IS to IS but it was sold to me as an 80mm. If I understand the direction this thread is going the 82mm with a 35r and the SEM will still be to much TB for me when running under the 600hp mark. This is the TB I would like to identify:
























Thanks.....


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*FV-QR*

That TB looks (and has same pat number as) like my 80mm Hemi TB purchased from [email protected] (same TB as the 80mm sold with the SEM manifold). I just measured the inner diameter of the Hemi 80mm and it comes out to about 82mm as well.
Also both are VDO


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: (G-radoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G-radoT* »_
Did you already try the 80mm on your application? What TB you going to run?
What size Turbo you running? (Something with a T25/T28?)


Yes I tried it and I did not like how it drove for my application.
50 trim .63ar, AEB head, ATP log mani, 630s, ect ect...mine was on a crap tune from UNI they could not get right with this TB.


----------



## technician (Jun 29, 2009)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

Issam can you provide me the link to the intake manifold comparisons, which give their flow #'s, etc. I think it's archived and I can't find it, Thanks! BTW - that is correct information I posted about the 2000 A6 2.7t being 75mm. Cheers


----------



## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (gtimitch)*

it looks like the caddy northstar one I have,if I was home in the states I'd take a look at mine. but here this is the best pic i could find http://autospeed.com/cms/title....html


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (not SoQuick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *not SoQuick* »_it looks like the caddy northstar one I have, 

similar but dont think same

GTIMITCH









NORTHSTAR








Hemi (MINE)










_Modified by jwalker1.8 at 3:00 PM 1-26-2010_


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (jwalker1.8)*

Hey Issam, does this t/b displacement concept also work out for big turbo vr6??
im running uni's 440c on a 60-1 20psi, running stock t/b still on a SRI


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (gtimitch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *screwball* »_Any timeline on the rest of the tests?

Maybe March? I am sure once Unitronic's dyno has the 1.8T motor back on then we can commence.

_Quote, originally posted by *gtimitch* »_Since you guys are in such a wonderful identifying mood -- please help me identify the TM I have.

Mitch thats the Dodge Hemi 5.7L throttle body.Pretty much the same as the 6.1L & Cadillac North Star.

_Quote, originally posted by *technician* »_Issam can you provide me the link to the intake manifold comparisons, which give their flow #'s, etc.

This one?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3098525

_Quote, originally posted by *CorvetteKillerVr6* »_Hey Issam, does this t/b displacement concept also work out for big turbo vr6??

Works out for all motors.
Change a component in the system and expect said system to behave differently.
LOADS of people have been using the 80mm DBW units on the 12V & 24V VR turbo's with great success. definitely a power adder from the stock 65mm units.


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

is there any major tune changes required???
Uni/440cc tune i have now
or is this something i could deal with in say Unisettings or Lemmiwinks


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (CorvetteKillerVr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CorvetteKillerVr6* »_is there any major tune changes required???
Uni/440cc tune i have now
or is this something i could deal with in say Unisettings or Lemmiwinks

You can try using lemmiwinks or Unisettings but ideally a remap is recommended.I have seen first hand what does adjustments vs a complete retune does to the power output.


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

Awesome, 
so ill just source myself one of the 75mm's i think and make a trip to Unitronic with it to have the Re-map dealt with.
thanks Issam, by the way, that Turbo blanket you got me is awesome and thanks again
the Quality is amazing
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (CorvetteKillerVr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CorvetteKillerVr6* »_Awesome, 
so ill just source myself one of the 75mm's i think and make a trip to Unitronic with it to have the Re-map dealt with.
thanks Issam, by the way, that Turbo blanket you got me is awesome and thanks again
the Quality is amazing
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
















Anytime chief

This just in from the UK:








*BLUE* = standard
*RED* = with sem
*ORANGE* = boost tuned up. 
This is on a K04-023 by the way....
Thanks so much for doing this Jonathan


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

interesting ... was that a k04-02x on a small port head? 
What would you suggest would be a good size for me? AGU Intake, AEB head Hybrid k04-02x with 32 lb/min compressor wheel ... I have a 12v vr6 TB (65mm I think) laying around. Or would a larger size be more beneficial?
I know the k04 isn't exactly a big turbo but it powerband is good enough for me. Just trying to maximize everything around it.


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Is this one in the test?


----------



## Blu--Pearl (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (jwalker1.8)*

mines not working







installed the aeb head, ecu and new mani and now it runs like crap. feel like the TB is not opening at all.


----------



## NOLA_VDubber (May 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Blu--Pearl)*

So, I've got a question:
1) given these results, should I even consider stepping up to a 65mm throttlebody when I move to a larger IM? Does the fact that I'm running a much smaller turbo and will see much smaller air velocities mean the 65mm may out perform the stock one in my case?
2) If I do go with a 65mm throttlebody, will I need to be retuned? I'm currently running the uni630 MAF file.
Sorry about the rediculously noob questions


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (NOLA_VDubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spartiati* »_
What would you suggest would be a good size for me? AGU Intake, AEB head Hybrid k04-02x with 32 lb/min compressor wheel ... I have a 12v vr6 TB (65mm I think) laying around. Or would a larger size be more beneficial?


65mm or 70mm would work fine for you.

_Quote, originally posted by *jwalker1.8* »_Is this one in the test?

No,
Cant afford the price tag on that to justify testing it.

_Quote, originally posted by *NOLA_VDubber* »_
1) given these results, should I even consider stepping up to a 65mm throttlebody when I move to a larger IM? Does the fact that I'm running a much smaller turbo and will see much smaller air velocities mean the 65mm may out perform the stock one in my case?
2) If I do go with a 65mm throttlebody, will I need to be retuned? I'm currently running the uni630 MAF file.

Run the 65mm unit if you have access to it.
I will recommend a retune.Every single time Mike changed a throttle body he had to calibrate the software somehow whether it was a minor tweak or a major remapping session....something needed to be done so I would recommend you adjusting everything.
The good thing about Uni's dyno is that they used a V-banded turbo manifold so I could swap in and out any of the TiAL turbochargers.I am going to be using a 2868R next time I am there which should give us an inside scoop on how the engine will behave with a smaller turbocharger (which is pretty much in the same relm as a 2871R).
I wont be testing the 75mm or 80mm but more the smaller units.Just to see how they behave.
Would this work for you and others?


----------



## NOLA_VDubber (May 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
65mm or 70mm would work fine for you.
Run the 65mm unit if you have access to it.
I will recommend a retune.Every single time Mike changed a throttle body he had to calibrate the software somehow whether it was a minor tweak or a major remapping session....something needed to be done so I would recommend you adjusting everything.
The good thing about Uni's dyno is that they used a V-banded turbo manifold so I could swap in and out any of the TiAL turbochargers.I am going to be using a 2868R next time I am there which should give us an inside scoop on how the engine will behave with a smaller turbocharger (which is pretty much in the same relm as a 2871R).
I wont be testing the 75mm or 80mm but more the smaller units.Just to see how they behave.
Would this work for you and others?

That would be awesome! I would also like to reiterate how great this thread is. Hats off to both INA and Unitronic


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
No,
Cant afford the price tag on that to justify testing it.


To be honest I was being sarcastic. $2100 for any manifold is crazy


----------



## G-radoT (May 20, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

I would like to see the 75mm TB as APR specs this on thier manifold. It would be interesting to see how it all compares as I have a 2871R.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (G-radoT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G-radoT* »_I would like to see the 75mm TB as APR specs this on thier manifold. It would be interesting to see how it all compares as I have a 2871R. 

Did not want to update this before but hopefully Unitronic's dyno will be free soon and the 1.8T engine will be back on it so I can finish off the remainder of the tests.
If anyone has anything they would like to see tested now is the time to ask so I can prepare for it.


----------



## Vee-Dubber-GLI (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

Issam, I have a really noobish question- Is it even worth upgrading the TB if I'm running a FrankenTurbo K04 or K04-2X? I'm looking into possibly upgrading to an ABD intake manifold and was wondering if those turbo/mani combinations even move enough air for a TB upgrade to be worthwhile. Right now, I have the stock AWP small-port with passenger-side TB. Thanks and great work on the tests!!


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

Nola i can only tell from my own experience, and granted that im using a DBC tb, but when i changed to APR im and 65mm throttle body, the biggest difference i noticed was the better throttle feel, respons and also overall tb performance - it was huge difference, i can only guess how good the 75tb would feel like on this IM - i know 18bora was happy with the respons of this on even something as small as our baby GT28rs, but danm it - no tb is that big and dbc, so i need to be happy with my little 65mm....
Sammy just an request, but could you also test the 65mm tb, that 034 increases to 70mm? i really like to see the gains etc. on the small GT28 turbo.


----------



## NOLA_VDubber (May 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

I'm *loving* this 65mm TB. Like you said, the throttle just feels so much better. Oddly, it's noticably less "on/off" and much more analog-ish.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (NOLA_VDubber)*

I agree absolutely, nice to see you already have it installed - its a wonder, and i must say im not to sad about being dbc anymore, the respons with cable is amazing....


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_
Sammy just an request, but could you also test the 65mm tb, that 034 increases to 70mm? i really like to see the gains etc. on the small GT28 turbo.

Dennis, I will try my best to get this done for you.
A couple of years ago a customer of ours who was intent on staying with AEB management wanted a custom 75mm DBC throttle body. Looking into the cost to machine up such a part is in the $500-600 range due to how many operations are needed.I know this does not apply to you Dennis but to others here in N/A you can pick up an ME-7 swap for half of that and the DBW throttle body options are endless.

_Quote, originally posted by *Vee-Dubber-GLI* »_Issam, I have a really noobish question- Is it even worth upgrading the TB if I'm running a FrankenTurbo K04 or K04-2X? I'm looking into possibly upgrading to an ABD intake manifold and was wondering if those turbo/mani combinations even move enough air for a TB upgrade to be worthwhile. Right now, I have the stock AWP small-port with passenger-side TB. Thanks and great work on the tests!!









From the tests that have been conducted in the past I can comfortably say that if you change a component in the system then expect the system to behave differently. In this case I expect that if you did change to a K04-02X turbocharger and say a 65mm/70mm then you will notice a slight gain in performance.I am not going to say how much power as each set up is different but even on a stock 1.8T we found a gain in hp going from a 60mm to a 70mm throttle body.
p.s. for those reading. We now have DBW throttle body upgrades for all your projects.Send over an email and I will see how I can help out.


----------



## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
The setup:
Unitronic 830, kinetic kit, 3582, 3" dp, 2.5" high flow cat back, 500cc water/meth injection, kinetic intercooler with 2.5" piping upgrade in and out, rmr big port intake manifold, worked over awp head, and stock cams at the moment, and last but not least IE rods on stock pistons. 
Just did this kit which included 70mm throttle body, spacer for stock bolt patter to new throttle, gasket, and 3" to 2.5" coupler. Issam added a meth port in the spacer like the usrt spacer for a small fee. This is literally a plug and play upgrade. No reflashing, no tweaks are need that I can see however I have been making small changes just for when my trims are reset the car is easier and more driveable.  I will create a new thread on this upgrade with tweaks and logs showing before and after results. I did not and will not be doing dynos of both throttles. For anyone who knows me, I'm not a big numbers guy. I could care less if I'm at 450 or 550 whp. All I know is this upgrade is a MUST have for big port guys and I recomend upgrading to this for all big port guys. Built head or not, MT, BT get this kit. Totally night and day. As soon as you press the throttle you will notice the added airflow which in turn makes more power at less throttle input. Upon WOT at high boost huge gains are noticed. Before I would get traction in 3rd most of the time, now it just rips thru 3rd. I have not gotten hard into 4th yet. Still being cautious and watching closely with the taller gears seeing as how I didn't get reflshed. You have to remember no matter what throttle position is at, more air is flowing into the intake manifold. My system is full capable of trimming the correct fuel needed. Upon first startup idle was rough, once o2 warmed up I was seeing bout 17.6/1 air fuel. Slowly as adaption took place it got richer and richer to a perfect 14.5 to 14.7/1 and smooth idle. This of course only took ten to 15 min which seems like an eternity. Every now and again there is small drop of a couple hundred rpms which is pretty normal. During driving there is a small rev hang going from partial throttle to idle. No big deal at all for me. It's short last 1sec tops before dropping. All in all I'd say this is totally worth purchasing, reflash or not, mt or bt, water meth or not.   











_Modified by velocity196 at 11:33 AM 4-7-2010_


----------



## Vee-Dubber-GLI (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
From the tests that have been conducted in the past I can comfortably say that if you change a component in the system then expect the system to behave differently. In this case I expect that if you did change to a K04-02X turbocharger and say a 65mm/70mm then you will notice a slight gain in performance.I am not going to say how much power as each set up is different but even on a stock 1.8T we found a gain in hp going from a 60mm to a 70mm throttle body.


Thanks for the information Issam. So 70mm best fits the k04 series in terms of effeciency? Great job testing and great info!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (velocity196)*


_Quote, originally posted by *velocity196* »_All I know is this upgrade is a MUST have for big port guys and I recomend upgrading to this for all big port guys. Built head or not, MT, BT get this kit. Totally night and day. As soon as you press the throttle you will notice the added airflow which in turn makes more power at less throttle input. 

Thank you for the feedback









_Quote, originally posted by *Vee-Dubber-GLI* »_
Thanks for the information Issam. So 70mm best fits the k04 series in terms of effeciency? Great job testing and great info!









I would go with the 70mm kit we offer. It is affordable and gets the job done.
I sell the entire kit for *$299 USD* Shipped








most people sell USED S4 throttle bodies for $150 usd....


----------



## Vee-Dubber-GLI (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
I would go with the 70mm kit we offer. It is affordable and gets the job done.
I sell the entire kit for *$299 USD* Shipped










Added to the parts list.


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Vee-Dubber-GLI)*

guys crack me up. my goal is 725+whp with my turbo. and i chose a 75mm tb. guys running 70mm with a k04 is nuts. these cars are gonna fly!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8t67* »_guys running 70mm with a k04 is nuts. 

Why?


----------



## TSTARKZ123 (Oct 1, 2004)

*FV-QR*

725 and you plan to stay with the 75mm? Could you share your insight? I'm trying to decide which way to go as well but my goals aren't quite as lavish. 650 would suit me well.


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (TSTARKZ123)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TSTARKZ123* »_725 and you plan to stay with the 75mm? Could you share your insight? I'm trying to decide which way to go as well but my goals aren't quite as lavish. 650 would suit me well.

because larger isn't needed. lol.
i'm not sure who started the whole tb craze, but people running 80mm tb's on 400whp is retarded. it's retarded on anything under 700whp. 75mm is retarded on anything under 500whp. the mindset around here makes me think, by the time these guys do make real hp, they'll have to make a tb out of a 15" wheel, to make 600whp.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*

Your comment just proofed you really didnt read this thread or saw the difference in gains, or maybe even tried the feel of bigger tb....when i switched out the 60mm to just a 65mm it was night and day, and i wish to god a 75mm was possible on dbc - their is not really if you have x amount of hp you should go with x size tb, lots of different things can affect that decision, one of them beeing power curve, throttle respons and feel. if you have upgraded to intake manifold that can fit a 75mm tb, then why not fit it, even do you might only have k04? engines arent unhappy with more air


----------



## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8t67* »_
because larger isn't needed. lol.
i'm not sure who started the whole tb craze, but people running 80mm tb's on 400whp is retarded. it's retarded on anything under 700whp. 75mm is retarded on anything under 500whp. the mindset around here makes me think, by the time these guys do make real hp, they'll have to make a tb out of a 15" wheel, to make 600whp.








don't listen to this guy, the less flow restriction at the throttle the better. Seriously, low rpm partial throttle WILL improve no matter what turbo your running. The bigger your turbo the better obviously, however gain will be seen from stock to 6765 and up.


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

lol. i'm sure i read the technical part of the thread. people are going to upgrade to w/e they like. why not source a 100mm tb?


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*

once again you have proven you didnt read the test....first of the 75mm tb outperforms everything in the test at almost every psi - the test is done with a engine performering less then 500whp.
So in short your statement:
1. Stupid to use larger then 70mm tb below 500whp = FAIL
2. Why not use source a 100mm tb - the 80mm performs worse then 75mm - so fail again.


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_once again you have proven you didnt read the test....first of the 75mm tb outperforms everything in the test at almost every psi - the test is done with a engine performering less then 500whp.
So in short your statement:
1. Stupid to use larger then 70mm tb below 500whp = FAIL
2. Why not use source a 100mm tb - the 80mm performs worse then 75mm - so fail again.



is this dude serious?








the 80mm performed worse because the size of the turbo. properly sizing your tb is just as important as selecting your turbo. an 80mm tb will show better gains on a turbo that needs that size. 
you guys over think stuff, WAAAAY to much. i stepped into the thread because a 70mm tb was suggested for a k04. now all of a sudden, i'm a non knowing *******.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*

yes im serius - you claimed 75tb was stupid below 500whp, thats proven wrong in this thread - 70tb would be a good choice for k04 or GT28, infact i would bet on the 75mm or 70mm would show biggest performance on either of those turbo´s not to mention the throttle respons would be golden. so far no one has agreed with you on this - but its typical for someone who wants 5-600whp to think they are the only one to gain from bigger tb, you are not. 
But wait for the 2. tech thread and you will be suprised.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8t67* »_ because a 70mm tb was suggested for a k04.

Because:
1. A 65mm throttle body is expensive to source
2. A 70mm unit has room to grow.
65mm has been proven a restriction on a 3071R. If you know the end outcome with X throttle body size then why use it? No one (not even me) stated to use an 80mm throttle body on a K04 or anything.
Marc uses an 80mm unit from me on his 700whp drag car and I am sure if a larger unit was available he would test it out but right now there is not.


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

logical answer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8t67* »_logical answer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

LOL
i know you just like busting my balls


----------



## R32dreamer17 (Oct 11, 2007)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

i like this thread


----------



## Bug_racer (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (R32dreamer17)*

How much are those throttle body adapters ? I need one for an R32 throttle body


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Any updates on getting that raw data to process into charts?
Also, somewhat off-topic, but I am curious when the SEM big port longitudinal manifold will be available... Assuming I'm not behind the times and it's already been released.








EDIT: Oh, and besides the price, are there any other differences between the several different 75mm throttle bodies?


_Modified by Chris164935 at 11:35 PM 4-9-2010_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Chris164935)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_racer* »_How much are those throttle body adapters ? I need one for an R32 throttle body 


For which intake manifold? OEM 60 x 60?

_Quote, originally posted by *Chris164935* »_Any updates on getting that raw data to process into charts?
 
I will work on it today Chris









_Quote, originally posted by *Chris164935* »_
Also, somewhat off-topic, but I am curious when the SEM big port longitudinal manifold will be available... Assuming I'm not behind the times and it's already been released.








 
You are not behind on the times . Donato & Marco and working hard to get it released. Pre-orders help









_Quote, originally posted by *Chris164935* »_
EDIT: Oh, and besides the price, are there any other differences between the several different 75mm throttle bodies?
 
Bolt pattern, design of the lip, thickness of the actual housing, TPS connector used, etc


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
For which intake manifold? OEM 60 x 60?

I will work on it today Chris









You are not behind on the times . Donato & Marco and working hard to get it released. Pre-orders help









Bolt pattern, design of the lip, thickness of the actual housing, TPS connector used, etc

Sounds good. PM me with how much for pre-ordering and a general idea of the lead-time, as I am quite interested.
Are there any differences in reliability between the various 75mm throttle bodies?
Any that play well with Autronic?


_Modified by Chris164935 at 5:36 PM 4-10-2010_


----------



## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Bug_racer)*

why no tests on anything bigger than 80mm


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Chris164935)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chris164935* »_
Are there any differences in reliability between the various 75mm throttle bodies?
Any that play well with Autronic?

I doubt considering they all have the same internals. As for Autronic, once you have the relationship between the pedal and the unit set up correctly it should work just like OEM.


----------



## Bug_racer (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
For which intake manifold? OEM 60 x 60?



SEM manifold to R32 throttle body . The SEM has 2 different hole configurations . 1 probably stock and the other ????


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: (Chris164935)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chris164935* »_
Sounds good. PM me with how much for pre-ordering and a general idea of the lead-time, as I am quite interested.
Are there any differences in reliability between the various 75mm throttle bodies?
Any that play well with Autronic?

_Modified by Chris164935 at 5:36 PM 4-10-2010_

why would you want to keep a dbw tb vs. doing a dbc? dbc set-up is $100. true bolt on. 75mm tb is $50. plus, no tuning headaches on tb position...


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (Chris164935)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chris164935* »_
Sounds good. PM me with how much for pre-ordering and a general idea of the lead-time, as I am quite interested.
Are there any differences in reliability between the various 75mm throttle bodies?
Any that play well with Autronic?


Autronic smc/2/4 doesnt have the capability to run dbw.
Vipec V44 does not either. The Vipec V88 has, can and will controll DBW throttle bodies. Various MoTeC ecus will also control dbw.
If you are looking at an sm4 and want dbw just get a v88, prices are similar, options are similar but the dbw support is available.
Like jason said though many people who have the higher end motec and the like ecus dont even use the dbw, eventhough its an option.
There was much talk about it, but from what ive seen and been directly involved with in the past 6 months still shows no sign of dbw use even in the fastest of the street/outlaw sport compact community.
With that said there are several options for dbc conversions if you are going standalone and they really do work well.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Autronic smc/2/4 doesnt have the capability to run dbw.

I was under the impression the latest SM4's had electronic throttle body capability. With all the wires that come with a Vipec unit I would rather go with Motec. Did a V88 install in October and it gave me a headache.

_Quote, originally posted by *1.8t67* »_why would you want to keep a dbw tb vs. doing a dbc?

I am going to assume to keep the stock Bosch Motronic otherwise then DBW on standalone is pointless 

_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_racer* »_
SEM manifold to R32 throttle body . The SEM has 2 different hole configurations . 1 probably stock and the other ????

Depends on the manifold you have. If you got one with both bolt patterns then you have 80 x 80 and 60 x 60 but with a 60mm opening. We can make a plate to go from 80 x 80 to R32 but you will need to port the manifold to a 75mm opening. Send me an email to further assist you.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
I am going to assume to keep the stock Bosch Motronic otherwise then DBW on standalone is pointless 


DBW on standalone is awesome. Instead of timing/fuel cuts you can use the throttle for traction control, launch control, and other safeguards of the like. Much easier on the motor than say ignition cut launch control.
Many of the newer more expensive ecus have multiple wheel speed inputs and you can use the throttle body to keep the wheel speeds the same or withing a specified value.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
DBW on standalone is awesome.

...But pointless and it pains me to say that.
If you are going to try and control:
* WB O2
* DBW throttle body
* 3-PIN coils
* High impedance injectors
...etc
then trim down an ME7.5 harness , get a Eurodyne tuning suite and use it. No standalone system no matter who it came from will ever match the intelligence of Bosch Motronic especially when it comes to knock control. Standalone is suppose to make your set up easier, not more complex so adding an electric throttle body in the mix is really overly complicating things.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
...But pointless and it pains me to say that.
If you are going to try and control:
* WB O2
* DBW throttle body
* 3-PIN coils
* High impedance injectors
...etc
then trim down an ME7.5 harness , get a Eurodyne tuning suite and use it. No standalone system no matter who it came from will ever match the intelligence of Bosch Motronic especially when it comes to knock control. Standalone is suppose to make your set up easier, not more complex so adding an electric throttle body in the mix is really overly complicating things.

On most cars on this forum yes. But on this one I agree to disagree, the advanced datalogging aspect of good aftermarket ecus is worth every penny.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
On most cars on this forum yes. But on this one I agree to disagree, the advanced datalogging aspect of good aftermarket ecus is worth every penny.

Of course the specific data logging features are a huge plus but my point is if you are going to use all the OEM inputs and outputs on your engine (talking about the 20V motor here) then I do not see the point of standalone period.


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

Interesting. I had considered DBC, but thought I might be able to get away with DBW since I already have the pedal assembly for DBW in my 2001 A4. Was tryin' to be lazy I suppose.








In any case, hurry up with that data!


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
...But pointless and it pains me to say that.
If you are going to try and control:
* WB O2
* DBW throttle body
* 3-PIN coils
* High impedance injectors
...etc
then trim down an ME7.5 harness , get a Eurodyne tuning suite and use it. No standalone system no matter who it came from will ever match the intelligence of Bosch Motronic especially when it comes to knock control. Standalone is suppose to make your set up easier, not more complex so adding an electric throttle body in the mix is really overly complicating things.

Well I am going to have to disagree here..
simply not the case
standalone ecu, 100% tunable, mine supports dbw, and a whole heap of othe things.. i tell it exactly what to do, and it does it..
Not arguing me7.x ecu's are'nt very clever ecu's becuase they are, BUT, standalone gives full control to everything you need, makes it accessible, where me7.x does'nt
I dont subscribe to me7.x ecu's being made to work, beyond their sensor inputs, with people trying to make them behave like a standalone, where they were nto designed for it. (mafless, beyond map sensor rangess etc etc)
my 2p


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (badger5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *badger5* »_
Well I am going to have to disagree here..
simply not the case
standalone ecu, 100% tunable, mine supports dbw, and a whole heap of othe things.. i tell it exactly what to do, and it does it..

Great http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
You are preaching to the choir...
I have been and still campaign for 034 EFI since the beginning of the company so I know all about telling a little data input box "what to do" . Standalone has its advantages and where the MK IV 20V & ME7.5 is concerned it is a mute point and that is a hard bullet to bite. I think Marc Hubert & Eurodyne have proven what is achievable on a stock ECU system with the proper tuning suite over the last couple of years. This is 2010....not 2003.
The only reason most people stay DBW throttle bodies is for ease and convenience of an OEM system. If you are going to tell me that on a standalone system where YOU the end user have complete control over your system find an advantage in a DBW throttle body vs a DBC throttle body I am going to have to raise my eyebrow to that.I have never seen a race car (read full blown race car) on standalone run a DBW throttle body. You will almost always find them running a cable between the throttle and accel pedal.If you are going to go through the hassle of keeping the DBW throttle body then dont switch up the system.

_Quote, originally posted by *badger5* »_
I dont subscribe to me7.x ecu's being made to work, beyond their sensor inputs, with people trying to make them behave like a standalone, where they were nto designed for it. (mafless, beyond map sensor rangess etc etc)









....not sure how things are done in the UK but if you can get an OEM system to behave VERY SIMILAR to a standalone unit where you can manipulate it to a point where you can benefit from it then all the power to you and that is what quite a few people in here have managed to do.
Lets all just agree to disagree on this point.
...anything else anyone want to see?
















pic whoring time.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

Sammy i have to agree with you on this - having tried a few dbw 1.8T´s i must say i would never swap over to me7 to get an better ecu and loose my dbc throttle feel, i had considered this many times so i could get and try APR sw, not to mention map sensor, but the feel of a dbc is 2. to none, its with out a doubt the best throttle respons and feel.
Anyways you know what i wanna see, so get right on making one








Anyways this test is awsome, cant really wait to see what the different tb does in affect to a GT28 turbo http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*

just wanted to add my pics of the throttle i got from issam. im VERY pleased this upgrade. i have another kit coming for my friends 30/40 setup. even tho hes on a stock manifold and head after i port the manifold opening and get her installed im sure its going to so great gains.













_Modified by velocity196 at 9:24 PM 4-11-2010_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (velocity196)*

Thanks Dennis & Al.
Ok in the intake manifold box I have the following:
* WRC Skoda unit
* APR 
* SEM bigport / 80
* AWP passenger side manifold
* BAM driver side manifold
* INA custom transverse manifold
* INA longitudinal manifold
* Apikol longitudinal manifold
* RMR manifold
NEED / would like the following manifolds:
* RMR replica
* ABD 
* Sharan 
If someone has 1 for cheap and is willing to sell it let me know.


----------



## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

Standalone+DBC=WIN
I converted my 01 a4 to DBC with 90mm TB http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Definitely more responsive than DBW too


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (version1.655)*


_Quote, originally posted by *version1.655* »_Standalone+DBC=WIN
I converted my 01 a4 to DBC with 90mm TB http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Definitely more responsive than DBW too

You should have gone with a 150mm unit.


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
You should have gone with a 150mm unit.















Mack truck TB FTW







Huge Top end/ intake tract + Tiny bottem end = MADDDDDD POWAZZZZZ


----------



## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
You should have gone with a 150mm unit.

















So I'm guessing mine is overkill because it 10mm bigger than the biggest size you tested


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: (version1.655)*

I think he's saying that yours is overkill; because the 80mm is overkill for MOST setups. Save of course maybe setup's like Marc Andre's, or AAron's to give 2 examples off the top of my head.. That being said. We are all tingling with anticipation to see this replica of a Renault Formula 1 engine circa 1985... Any pics, or specs of this creation of yours yet?? Or is it still "Top Secret" as it hasn't left Cosworths's proving grounds yet?? Just curious...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (version1.655)*


_Quote, originally posted by *version1.655* »_So I'm guessing mine is overkill because it 10mm bigger than the biggest size you tested









No, yours is overkill because you did not grasp the point of this test.
I am pretty sure I addressed this before:

_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
the 80mm unit has alot of disadvantages compared to the 75mm and 70mm units.For WOT the 80mm unit is great but part throttle and idling are much better improved with the 70 & 75mm. 


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
As expected on the 80mm unit, the most power was developed, great throttle body for an all out drag car.

80mm throttle body is on a 9s drag car. Bare in mind that 90% of the people in here will benefit from a 75 or 70mm unit which has a surface area of 4417mm2 and 3848mm2 espectively.With a 90mm throttle body you are 26% bigger than an 80mm unit , 43% bigger than a 75mm unit and 65% bigger than a 70mm








Unless you are building a 1300+hp motor (which I doubt) then you have basically killed your driveability and part throttle capabilities. Is this fatjohn?


----------



## version1.655 (Mar 16, 2010)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

i made a mistake. *90mm o.d
80mm i.d.*


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

80mm dbw on mine, standalone, no issues, does everything I want.. part throttle and drivability is superb, way better than me7 could ever manage with the mods to my engine.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (badger5)*

Bill try and switch to a 80mm dbc tb instead - i gaurentee you will love it, the pedal respons is so much nicer, it really is...


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: (Chris164935)*

Bill,
Is there a reason that you completely disregard what Mark Andre, and others have achieved on ME7?? With the introduction of Maestro it seems that your argument is a bit dated.. IMO.. Im not trying to argue that your setup isnt effective. I just dont understand the unfounded statements in light of the curent developments.


----------



## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (version1.655)*


_Quote, originally posted by *version1.655* »_Standalone+DBC=WIN
I converted my 01 a4 to DBC with 90mm TB http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Definitely more responsive than DBW too
Did I mention that the 70mm is 100% more responsive than the stock 60. Have no clue if the added air flow builds more power fast or if the unit opens fast or what but yeah. It's been a while since I've driven DBC but I'd say it's pretty close and any lag that there might be is not notices. It's been a full week now since I installed this and I am still excited bout it.


----------



## Vee-Dubber-GLI (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: (velocity196)*

Can't wait to see the AWP and the ABD manifolds. Looking into the ABD mani as this is progressing and would be curious to see the gains of ABD/70mm TB over stock AWP setup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: (Vee-Dubber-GLI)*

The abd mani doesnt flow much more than stock.. not much of an upgrade for the price..


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (dubinsincuwereindiapers)*

i got a buddy on SM4 with a DBW setup..works awesome, but my throttle response for my 80mm/SEM/ME7.5 setup is jus like having dbc, and it's intelligent so it can do things faster than my foot can.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

DBC vs. DBW =


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (Vegeta Gti)*

law of physics say nay - that is impossible, no dbw will ever act as fast as direct tb feel with pedal - impossible, and altough the dbw is probably like 0,002 secs slower, thats not really the deal with dbc vs dbw, its the throttle feel - when you are dbc you can sense the plate open etc. and have a much more direct feeling with the tb, you rely on ecu and electronics with dbw - just think of how often dbw needs tb allignment, this needed like 0,01% of the times compared to dbw on dbc - its just more accurate, better feel and less hazzle - sorry, but it just is - but you really only need dbc if you are racing, other then that dbw will be perfect for must, but personally i just love my dbc..


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

*Re: (l88m22vette)*


_Quote, originally posted by *l88m22vette* »_DBC vs. DBW =


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (l88m22vette)*

wait..so your telling me, after my 16 years of driving dbc cars..that i'm wrong in how my cars throttle response is ridiculous and it also helps prevent bad things from happening and helps me as well?
i'm never goin back to DBC if i can help it.


----------



## jc_bb (Sep 27, 2005)

where did you source your DBC TB? VAG part?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (jc_bb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubinsincuwereindiapers* »_The abd mani doesnt flow much more than stock.. not much of an upgrade for the price..

I want to show why it is not much of an upgrade. No more speculation....do the tests ,show the data then watch in amazement as people draw there own conculsions.









_Quote, originally posted by *jc_bb* »_where did you source your DBC TB? VAG part?

Which one? 
Longitudinal's use the 2.8 V6 DBC throttle body from the VW Passat and the Transverse use the 2.8 12V OBD-II VR6 throttle body from the MKIII 12V Jetta / MKIV 12V Jetta


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_Bill try and switch to a 80mm dbc tb instead - i gaurentee you will love it, the pedal respons is so much nicer, it really is...

Nope it wont.
my dbw works like dbc 1:1 function
its fine. dbc will give me nothing I dont already have thanks


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (badger5)*

what i hate with my audi tt dbw is that i cant rev the engine up really fast while bleeding out the clutch. i swear the throttle is like being controlled by something else. on my mk3 vw, i could rev the piss out of it. its like impossible to take off from the line with the dbw....how do you make it....better or act more like dbc? will a chip or maestro let me make the relationship between the pedal and throttle more....real??


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_what i hate with my audi tt dbw is that i cant rev the engine up really fast while bleeding out the clutch. i swear the throttle is like being controlled by something else. on my mk3 vw, i could rev the piss out of it. its like impossible to take off from the line with the dbw....how do you make it....better or act more like dbc? will a chip or maestro let me make the relationship between the pedal and throttle more....real??

Get dry sump and a bigger turbo first


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

i GOT the dry sump.
idk if the bracket you gave me will work with the audi though and all its accessories. im not ready to ditch the AC in the TT. Washington DC is warmer than Wisconsin!
the turbo is comming...i just dont know what to get yet....too many options.


----------



## TSTARKZ123 (Oct 1, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_what i hate with my audi tt dbw is that i cant rev the engine up really fast while bleeding out the clutch. i swear the throttle is like being controlled by something else. on my mk3 vw, i could rev the piss out of it. its like impossible to take off from the line with the dbw....how do you make it....better or act more like dbc? will a chip or maestro let me make the relationship between the pedal and throttle more....real??


Maybe I'm missing something but how does revving the engine have any effect on bleeding the clutch?


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (TSTARKZ123)*

what i meant by "bleeding" was eaasing the clutch out to ride it out on a launch off the line.
i should have said slipping the clutch.
i can rev the engine fine in neutral, but whenever there is any load on the engine, the car really doesnt respond well to my throttle input. like if i mash the pedal, or press it 1/4 of the way it reacts the same exact way, which is annoying. 
i was tempted to buy a "sprint booster" but i read that ecu programming can make the pedal input better....idk if thats true, and would like to know.



_Modified by speed51133! at 10:58 AM 4-14-2010_


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (speed51133!)*

^^^ A good flash will handle that







The only flashed cars ive driven that still suffered from that were APR tuned cars.. I would wipe that issue from your mind, if you are doing any type of build that requires a flash.. Which would be any build at all


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_
i was tempted to buy a "sprint booster" but i read that ecu programming can make the pedal input better....idk if thats true, and would like to know.
Time for Maestro


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_what i meant by "bleeding" was eaasing the clutch out to ride it out on a launch off the line.
i should have said slipping the clutch.
i can rev the engine fine in neutral, but whenever there is any load on the engine, the car really doesnt respond well to my throttle input. like if i mash the pedal, or press it 1/4 of the way it reacts the same exact way, which is annoying. 
i was tempted to buy a "sprint booster" but i read that ecu programming can make the pedal input better....idk if thats true, and would like to know.

_Modified by speed51133! at 10:58 AM 4-14-2010_

this with the oem turbo? when i had the stock turbo, i had this same effect. when i ran a t3/t4 50trim, it went away.


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*

yeah, all stock.
ill be switching to cooler stuff soon though.


----------



## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_yeah, all stock.
ill be switching to cooler stuff soon though.

thats why you have an on/off feeling. it doesn't take alot of exhaust gas to spool that lil' snail. once you upgrade, you'll have more control over the pedal, promise.


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (1.8t67)*

its not the turbo. its that the engine doesnt rev when i hit the pedal..even in 1st gear its soo slow


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

Just to update this. 
Local friend of mine upgraded his throttle body from a 60mm to a 70mm unit on a GT2871R and his surging issues went away with just the throttle body upgrade.








Also it is now official. No more APR intake manifold so for those of you who have one cheerish them.


----------



## AudiTToR (Nov 27, 2008)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Also it is now official. No more APR intake manifold so for those of you who have one cheerish them.


tits....


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (AudiTToR)*

FS: red powder coated APR intake manifold, now a collectors item


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (cincyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cincyTT* »_FS: red powder coated APR intake manifold, now a collectors item









It pretty much is...
all 300 of them


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

This is a sad sad day - but luckily i got mine







and its going to be worth more then its weight in gold -







... if i ever need to buy and island or something i could always sell this gem, but i wont - nahaaa...
anyways issam once you get your dyno stuff on the way with the different mani´´s people are going to see the APR rocks more then SEM and they will be the most asked for manis again, then they will produce again and again, its just those danm SEM manis ruining everything, but that dyno test will sort that out.....
yummy this is mine, take a good look - because its the closest you get to one now...


----------



## Vee-Dubber-GLI (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (DK_GTI_racer)*

Stupid question: If APR isn't making manifolds anymore, what about the S3/S3+ kits? Manifolds only made for the kit?


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Vee-Dubber-GLI)*

intake manifolds are not included in the kits


----------



## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

*FV-QR*

What size silicone hose would I need for an 80mm TB? Also how is the bolt spacing vs. 65mm 2.7T? Thanks


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (AudiA4_18T)*

The 80mm tb uses a 3.25" hose. I used to have a 80mm tb and I switched to a 65mm. I originally made an adapter plate for the 80mm to start with and was able to redrill the 80mm adapter plate to acept the 65mm tb. But they are different bolt patterns and will not work with out an adapter plate if switching from one to the other.


----------



## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

*FV-QR*

damn 3.25 is so random. Any pics of the difference in bolts? I have a 3" J pipe off the IM to the TB so I can make my own plate.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (AudiA4_18T)*

....what exactly are you trying to do Clint?


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*

Ok, this is the throttle plate I made. In the pic holes are as follows
Red-65mm throttle body (obviously not to perfect scale but best representation I could do on short notice)
Black(with bolt)-recessed mounting hole for APR intake manifold
Blank(empty hole)-80mm throttle body








I also needed to make a recess for the IAT sensor


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (jwalker1.8)*

I would be more than happy to get actual pics but I am at the office at the moment and won't have time for the car till the weekend.


----------



## AudiA4_18T (Mar 15, 2006)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_....what exactly are you trying to do Clint?


slap a hemi tb on there and ditch my 2.7T one


----------



## Vee-Dubber-GLI (Nov 27, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (cincyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cincyTT* »_intake manifolds are not included in the kits
 Ah, ok. I was under the impression that they were. Thanks.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Vee-Dubber-GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AudiA4_18T* »_
slap a hemi tb on there and ditch my 2.7T one

Then you need the plate I made for the S4 guys
Send me an email.









_Quote, originally posted by *Vee-Dubber-GLI* »_ Ah, ok. I was under the impression that they were. Thanks.









No,
the software is calibrated for an R32 throttle body & larger intake manifold but ideally it is not simply plug and play.

Anyone have an ABD manifold that they can grab some pictures of for me? Either the manifold I have is damaged internally or it is indeed flowing less than a stock VW Sharan intake manifold









...I am going to give ABD a call in the morning.


----------



## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_.....ABD manifold.....is indeed flowing less than a stock VW Sharan intake manifold









than a Sharan unit?!? oh Hell, that's fkin horrible, man. post up, when you figure out if the abd unit is defective or not. that's quite a funny initial result, considering all the hype.










_Modified by inivid at 11:33 PM 4-28-2010_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (inivid)*

well it doesnt surprise me, no one has yet to prove a good result on that manifold...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (DK_GTI_racer)*

Well I do not want to jump to any conclusions but it looks like this manifold is nothing more than an OEM unit with a larger plenum and shorter runners?


----------



## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

*Re: TECH : TEST 1 OF 3 | Throttle Body Sizing (Issam Abed)*

all we have seen is post about butt dynos. All stating they are giving up a bit of low for more high which may be all the short runners.


----------



## jwalker1.8 (Mar 4, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Five months now...when does Tech Test *2* of 3 come???


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (jwalker1.8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwalker1.8* »_Five months now...when does Tech Test *2* of 3 come???

4 months








Waiting on Unitronic to tell us when to come down to the manifold test. It gives me more time to get more manifolds for testing.
Need another ABD manifold


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I definitely need a reflash w/ the 70mm unit and my setup. My fuel trims are alllllll over the place now. May be time to get into 830s too...


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Any ballpark as to when the second round of tests will be figured out?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

l88m22vette said:


> Any ballpark as to when the second round of tests will be figured out?


 To be quite honest I am just collecting manifolds for now until Uni is ready.


----------



## hurtswhenipee (May 13, 2009)

bump for great tests and getting a new tb


----------



## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

good info! keeping track of this


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

I must apologize for being MIA. Its summer and we all know how the projects can be.


----------



## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Speaking of MIA, what's up with the longitudinal SEM intake manifolds?


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I went from spooling up at 4200 rpms w/ the .63 a/r 50 trim back down to 37-3800 rpms w/ the addition of the 70mm TB on my setup. At 19/20lbs the car feels like it did w/ 23lbs before. I have some small fixes to manage, but I"m looking forward to getting back to 23/24lbs of boost again.


----------



## weenerdog3443 (Jul 5, 2007)

screwball said:


> I went from spooling up at 4200 rpms w/ the .63 a/r 50 trim back down to 37-3800 rpms w/ the addition of the 70mm TB on my setup. At 19/20lbs the car feels like it did w/ 23lbs before. I have some small fixes to manage, but I"m looking forward to getting back to 23/24lbs of boost again.


damn nice improvement


----------



## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

Issam Abed said:


> I must apologize for being MIA. Its summer and we all know how the projects can be.


Don't appoligize. Besides, you're probably STILL recovering from your vacation. lol

All in good time, mate. :thumbup: 

Where do you stand with your preparations and where does Unitronic stand, in terms of getting you scheduled for some engine-dyno time? Post something comprehensive, if you would please. 

If you need anything, besides an ABD manifold, post up. You know, people are good about coughing up parts for tests around here. :beer:


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

screwball said:


> I went from spooling up at 4200 rpms w/ the .63 a/r 50 trim back down to 37-3800 rpms w/ the addition of the 70mm TB on my setup. At 19/20lbs the car feels like it did w/ 23lbs before. I have some small fixes to manage, but I"m looking forward to getting back to 23/24lbs of boost again.


Thanks so much for that.:thumbup:



inivid said:


> If you need anything, besides an ABD manifold, post up. You know, people are good about coughing up parts for tests around here. :beer:


I will for sure and thanks for the support.:thumbup:


----------



## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

any idea when round 2 of the testing will take place? thanks a lot for all the hard work, def nice to see real data not just conspiracy theories


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

carsluTT said:


> any idea when round 2 of the testing will take place? thanks a lot for all the hard work, def nice to see real data not just conspiracy theories


I hope to do more testing in the winter when things start to die down but it has been one crazy roller coaster after the other.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Issam Abed said:


> Also it is now official. No more APR intake manifold so for those of you who have one cheerish them.


Correct we plan to discontinue them. As some of you probably understand we must make orders in high quantities. That's a lot of $$$$$ to have just sitting on the shelf considering the 1.8T is getting older and older and this is not a very high volume product. 

If anyone still wants one, we had about 6 left the last time I checked.


----------



## [email protected] (May 18, 2008)

I’m going to add some information and experience of my own.
After finishing installing the SEM manifold and 80mm TB, I have been driving along like this for 3-4 months with original turbo (K03) :screwy:
I wanted to see how adaptable the 80mm TB is going to be, every one told me its undrivable and that it stutters flutters and what not.
Well after resetting the TB and a short adaptation period this is what I have to say (keep in mind no special tuning /file for the big 80mm TB):

Drivability is perfect TB is reactive and gives good feedback in any situation even on the original K03 
This is just a test of drivability although hopefully motor will be finished soon when I get around to it and then I will give further results


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Thanks for the update Tal!:thumbup:


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Managed to get a 73mm throttle body, would love to get it tested as well


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Exciting News:
Spoke with Mike Z @ Unitronic this morning (he was up EARRLLYYYYYY ). Looks like we are green light for intake manifold testing end of November.

I Have:
VW Golf AWP Intake Manifold
VW Sharan Intake Manifold
Audi TT BAM Intake Manifold
Skoda WRC Intake Manifold (Same as Dhalback)
SEM Big port / 80mm Intake manifold
INA Engineering Longitudinal manifold
Apikol Longitudinal manifold

I have 1 month to source:
ABD Intake Manifold
RMR Intake Manifold
APR Intake manifold (dennis took mine)
Whatever else is available....

If everything goes as planned hopefully we can get some heads and cams tested too.

Please bare in mind that this does not come free so if you guys want to kick back some $$ it would be appreciated.


----------



## weenerdog3443 (Jul 5, 2007)

INA said:


> Exciting News:
> Spoke with Mike Z @ Unitronic this morning (he was up EARRLLYYYYYY ). Looks like we are green light for intake manifold testing end of November.
> 
> I Have:
> ...


should grab one of the ebay OBX RMR clone manis too


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

INA said:


> Exciting News:
> Spoke with Mike Z @ Unitronic this morning (he was up EARRLLYYYYYY ). Looks like we are green light for intake manifold testing end of November.
> 
> I Have:
> ...


Damn, I would have shipped you my RMR that was sitting in a box for the last 4 months. But just got it installed yesterday. :-/


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

weenerdog3443 said:


> should grab one of the ebay OBX RMR clone manis too


Think they will send us one for free?:laugh:


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

Looking forward to the intake manifold results! Will they be tested with a stock throttle body? I apologize if this was already covered


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

bootymac said:


> Looking forward to the intake manifold results! Will they be tested with a stock throttle body? I apologize if this was already covered


We will be using the 70mm unit for all the manifolds.:thumbup:


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

Issam Abed said:


> We will be using the 70mm unit for all the manifolds.:thumbup:


good news sammy- just spoke to Arin - he thinks that they still have one he could sent your way for the testing - talk to him


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> good news sammy- just spoke to Arin - he thinks that they still have one he could sent your way for the testing - talk to him


Ahnell FTW!:thumbup:


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

INA said:


> Ahnell FTW!:thumbup:


Yup :thumbup: lets get something rocking....


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Looks like APR is coming through


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

opcorn:


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## girdwood (Mar 10, 2004)

Wow, awesome! Can't believe I've overlooked this thread so far!


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Anyone have an ABD manifold?


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

INA said:


> Anyone have an ABD manifold?


 wont ABD help you out sammy? or forget about it and just test the rest of the crowd :thumbup:umpkin:


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## SGTphatboy (Aug 21, 2004)

great info Issam :thumbup:


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Any luck getting ahold of a USRT manifold? I just install on on my car with a hemi TB.. Feels nice...:thumbup: 





Brand New Hemi 5.7L 80mm TB for sale BTW.:beer:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Nevaeh_Speed said:


> Any luck getting ahold of a USRT manifold? I just install on on my car with a hemi TB.. Feels nice...:thumbup:


TBH I am not going to bother with that manifold.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

eff the hemi 80mm..i love my real MB 80mm tb, plug and play(ME7)


----------



## leospeedworks (Sep 8, 2008)

What 70mm or 75mm TB optiions do I have for an AEB DBC motor? Thanks! I was supposed to get a VR6 but the thread shows it's not that worth it.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

leospeedworks said:


> What 70mm or 75mm TB optiions do I have for an AEB DBC motor? Thanks! I was supposed to get a VR6 but the thread shows it's not that worth it.


for an AEB DBC motor the only upgrade available is the VW Passat 30V DBC unit which is a 65mm throttle body. We can open it up to a 70mm (technically can go as large as 71mm) but as it stands there is no 70mm+ DBC throttle body that has the 8-PIN connector needed to be used with the AEB harness.

Update. With the help of 2 Vortexers we were able to get the remaining manifolds for the 1.8T intake test.

Missing:
USRT intake manifold - not going to bother
Hypertune intake manifold - ridiculously expensive.
RMR - talking with RMR this coming week.
HEP homebrew manifold.

If you guys have any suggestions please let me know.
Thanks.


----------



## leospeedworks (Sep 8, 2008)

thanks for the quick reply. How much do they cost together with the opening up? Merry Christmas guys! Sorry to hack the thread I'm from the Philippines and I need all the help before buying anything since I cannot return it anymore.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

leospeedworks said:


> thanks for the quick reply. How much do they cost together with the opening up? Merry Christmas guys! Sorry to hack the thread I'm from the Philippines and I need all the help before buying anything since I cannot return it anymore.


Merry Christmas to you too!:thumbup:

the service to open up 65mm to 70mm is 250 USD.:thumbup:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Hello Everyone. 
On January 28th I am scheduled to test the following intake manifolds (assume throttle body exit is based on a LHD vehicle). 

* Dhalback Racing - driver side exit 
* SEM Motorsport - driver side exit 
* APR Motorsport - driver side exit 
* RMR - driver side exit 
* OEM BAM intake manifold - driver side exit 
* Skoda WRC intake manifold - passenger side exit 
* ABD Racing intake manifold - passenger side exit 
* OEM AWP intake manifold - passenger side exit 

The test will be very similar to what I did with the DBW throttle bodies. Hopefully the ABD & APR manifold will make it by the 28th. 
Is there anything specific you guys would like to see done in the test? 
Thanks alot


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 18, 2009)

Will that be on the same spec motor?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Will that be on the same spec motor?


 The only manipulating variable will be the intake manifold used. 
Throttle body will be 70mm and the motor will be a bone stock 1.8T with drop in connecting rods. Turbocharger used is TBD.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I would like to see tests done at different boost pressures, say 15psi and 22 psi. Theory says they should respond identically, but proof would be good. 

:thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Issam, do you have access to all engine variables in real time? Will the calibration essentially be forced to run pretty identically? 

The reason I ask is because obviously depending how the car is tuned the results may be favored in one area or another. For example there are so many compensations within the ECU which go into computing the final ignition timing output, which could affect the final power results. What I mean is you don't just tell the ECU you want X amount of timing advance at x load level and x RPM and it either tries it or pulls it out with timing retard. There are other compensations which will take away or add to the timing advance, or possibly even cap it. 

Another example could air fuel ratio. Will it be capped and forced to run 1 AFR the entire run? If protection routines are left in place, it could switch to a different AFR map for protection at different RPM's or possibly not at all during some runs, which would impact the results. 

Finally, weather. How closely will the test be preformed together and how will climate be controlled or monitored? I've seen results jump from around and look completely different on identical setups only a few hours apart. 

Point being, how heavily will the data be monitored to determine the best results are not simply coming from the conditions or calibration affecting the results slightly in favor of one setup or the other. 

Do you have any plans to double or triple test the results to ensure at different testing times, in different orders, the same setup reports almost identically no matter when it's tested?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Arin, I'm not an expert here but I would say with the same "tune" and just switching manifolds for back to back runs, automatic ecu compensation should be expected and encouraged. If you wanted to see what manifold makes the peak power, each tune will have to be adjusted. But if those adjustments are outside the window of automatic compensation, then what good does it do? 

IE manifold A may be a better option for a cookie cutter tune, but manifold B may be the best option with standalone software.


----------



## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Issam, do you have access to all engine variables in real time? Will the calibration essentially be forced to run pretty identically?
> 
> The reason I ask is because obviously depending how the car is tuned the results may be favored in one area or another. For example there are so many compensations within the ECU which go into computing the final ignition timing output, which could affect the final power results. What I mean is you don't just tell the ECU you want X amount of timing advance at x load level and x RPM and it either tries it or pulls it out with timing retard. There are other compensations which will take away or add to the timing advance, or possibly even cap it.
> 
> ...


 then why dont you/apr offer some its research and tools or TIME to make this happen ??????? oh wait APR has moved on to other platforms ......at least now we have some kind of hard data witch is more to be said when APR was ruling things 8 years ago .....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Arin, I'm not an expert here but I would say with the same "tune" and just switching manifolds for back to back runs, automatic ecu compensation should be expected and encouraged. If you wanted to see what manifold makes the peak power, each tune will have to be adjusted. But if those adjustments are outside the window of automatic compensation, then what good does it do?
> 
> IE manifold A may be a better option for a cookie cutter tune, but manifold B may be the best option with standalone software.


 For the record, I have no vested interest in seeing if ours is the best or not. We no longer sell the manifold and only have a few left around the shop. 

I do however think my comments are valid and something someone should consider, especially if I was a customer interested in the results. 

I think it's an excellent idea to collect as much data, in real time, as possible, simply the smallest of things (such as going into component protection) could suddenly alter the results. Without seeing this in the data, one is only left to assume, around X RPM something changed and the one setup lost power where the other didn't. 

I agree that can be argued that the one setup may make the car go into this mode more often than another, but that may not always be the case. 

From my own testing of many different products we sell, and even completely unmodified OEM cars, I know you can dyno a car in the morning, come back a few hours later in the same conditions and have totally different results although it seems nothing has changed. 

I guess my point is I'd consider all variables in testing, and most importantly I'd run MULTIPLE back to back tests as well as multiple testes at different times and average the results to ensure I'm getting the most accurate data possible. 





kamahao112 said:


> then why dont you/apr offer some its research and tools or TIME to make this happen.


 :facepalm:


----------



## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> For the record, I have no vested interest in seeing if ours is the best or not. We no longer sell the manifold and only have a few left around the shop.
> 
> I do however think my comments are valid and something someone should consider, especially if I was a customer interested in the results.
> 
> ...


 lets just put it this way .. i put a apr stage three + on a customers car last dec. and i pleaded with him to just let me build a kit for him but he insisted on the 3+ well ONLY eight months later stage 3+ came off and a custom 30r went on ...it now makes way more power is WAY smoother and gets the same gas milage .... so :facepalm: all you want .. oh and i forgot to mention its a off the shelf tapp 630 tune with no timing pull .... but hey i guess i dont know what i am doing since i am not APR!!! and after all its not like apr to share anything that is why all the part numbers are scratched off everything... so sharing is not APR's bag of tea!!! it seems like its their way or the highway!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

kamahao112 said:


> lets just put it this way .. i put a apr stage three + on a customers car last dec. and i pleaded with him to just let me build a kit for him but he insisted on the 3+ well ONLY eight months later stage 3+ came off and a custom 30r went on ...it now makes way more power is WAY smoother and gets the same gas milage .... so :facepalm: all you want .. oh and i forgot to mention its a off the shelf tapp 630 tune with no timing pull .... but hey i guess i dont know what i am doing since i am not APR!!! and after all its not like apr to share anything that is why all the part numbers are scratched off everything... so sharing is not APR's bag of tea!!! it seems like its their way or the highway!


 


So let me recap what just happend: 



*Issam*: I'm doing testing. 

*[email protected]*: Have you considered XXX while testing? The data would be interesting to see. 

*kamahao*: **** YOU APR **** YOU **** **** YOU!!!!!! YOU TEST IT, GET OUT OF HERE AHHHAAAAAHHHHHHH ****KKKKKKK!!!! 

*[email protected]*: :facepalm: 

*kamahao*: I KNOW A GUY AND HE HAD YOUR KIT AND NOW HE HAS SOMETHING ELSE AND IT'S BETTER, ITS FASTER, ITS SMOOTHER, IT GETS BETTER MILEAGE, IS STRONGER, ITS MORE RELIABLE, ITS CHEAPER, YOU SUCK PLEASE JUMP OFF A BRIDGE YOU SUCK SO MUCH YOUR KIT SUCKS I LOVING BEING OFF TOPIC AS LONG AS IT INVOLVES ME ****TING ON YOU AHHHHHH. 




So much for technical discussion in the technical forum. Guys like kamahao really ruin it for everyone.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

looking fwd to the numbers Issam :thumbup:


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

looks to me like APR are a bunch of cry babes 

and just for the point of it making an argument that just because you changed the manifold and the motor makes more horsepower doesn't mean the manifold is any better is like saying just because you change your turbo and the motor makes more power doesn't mean it's better 

Jesusmosses who cares if it made more power give it on 

by the way this is the same argument APR makes every time they don't make more power 
and its geting old very fast


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I think it's an excellent idea to collect as much data, in real time, as possible, simply the smallest of things (such as going into component protection) could suddenly alter the results. Without seeing this in the data, one is only left to assume, around X RPM something changed and the one setup lost power where the other didn't.


 
I agree entirely with you. The more data the better. Perhaps it would be possible to do two iterations of testing, one with OEM like adaptation and one with controlled (optimized?) settings


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

talx said:


> and just for the point of it making an argument that just because you changed the manifold and the motor makes more horsepower doesn't mean the manifold is any better is like saying just because you change your turbo and the motor makes more power doesn't mean it's better


 
I would say if the results are outside 3% deviation then when you change the manifold then yes, that does make it a better manifold


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Issam Abed said:


> The only manipulating variable will be the intake manifold used.
> Throttle body will be 70mm and the motor will be a bone stock 1.8T with drop in connecting rods. Turbocharger used is TBD.


 bigport or smallport? 

What is TBD turbo?


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> What is TBD turbo?


 Too be determined I believe


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

ah, sry me no habla...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Gulfstream said:


> bigport or smallport?


 Both as they were manufactured. Dhalback & ABD were all manufactured in small port format and SEM , APR & Skoda WRC were manufactured in large port format. I am not going to open up any of the ports. 
The cylinder head is a small port head so we will use transition gaskets/spacers for the large port manifolds. 
Arin, 
first all of thank you so much for your input. I feel you have asked questions which alot of people have been wanting to ask but just do not know how to word it. So again:thumbup: 


[email protected] said:


> Issam, do you have access to all engine variables in real time? Will the calibration essentially be forced to run pretty identically?


 This is going to be a general post not directed @ APR or anyone. 
The purpose of this test is to do the following: 


Allow the tuner (Unitronic) to expand and perfect there current "options" catalog. 

Allow the tester (INA Engineering) to visually see the differences between intake manifolds and how each design affects performance in order for future development 

Allow the community who have purchased products in the past to actually SEE where how there investment has worked out for them 

 

I am pretty sure Unitronic will calibrate there software to optimize the performance of each manifold. It would not be in there interest to skew the results to 1 particular piece of hardware. I know Mike has a few Unitronic customers running the APR manifold + 75mm throttle body so it would be good to redo that with a 70mm throttle body. 



[email protected] said:


> Finally, weather. How closely will the test be preformed together and how will climate be controlled or monitored? I've seen results jump from around and look completely different on identical setups only a few hours apart.


 Manifolds will be swaped literally 20-30 mins apart after approx 3-4 pulls each. We only have 1 day and alot of manifolds to test so alot needs to be done. 



[email protected] said:


> Point being, how heavily will the data be monitored to determine the best results are not simply coming from the conditions or calibration affecting the results slightly in favor of one setup or the other.


 Arin, 
you know I am a junkie for data so I will be monitoring it very closely. 


[email protected] said:


> Do you have any plans to double or triple test the results to ensure at different testing times, in different orders, the same setup reports almost identically no matter when it's tested?


 If the data from 1 particular set up looks off , I will have it retested. The engine dyno room @ unitronic is very controlled. Temperature is regulated and the conditions are regulated. The only varying condition I can think of will be the fuel used. i.e. running out of fuel and then continuing using a different batch. Whatever the case I will have a drum of fuel ready to go for this.


----------



## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

talx said:


> looks to me like APR are a bunch of cry babes
> 
> and just for the point of it making an argument that just because you changed the manifold and the motor makes more horsepower doesn't mean the manifold is any better is like saying just because you change your turbo and the motor makes more power doesn't mean it's better
> 
> ...



I love it how all the internet tooners who most of the time either A don't have a well built car to even lean on, B paid someone else to do the hard work and are clueless to whats going on under the hood or C base everything they "know" off hearsay, assumptions, ill-educated hypothesis or just get in line behind the other idiots out on the internet that don't have a pot to piss in to prove what they think they know.



Arin's point is valid. If you knew anything about the power plant under your hood, past he piece of plastic that says 20V turbo you might understand where he was going.

Let Issam do his job. Let him post up the results for all the Vortex bench racers to look at the data presented, get thoroughly confused by it, then look at a dyno number and think they now have a leg to stand on when they tell the kid down the street why they are dumb for buying manifold XXX.


For the rest of us, that actually have goals and proven automotive accomplishments, we will study the hard work they are putting in and the results we are given graciousuly then go back into the quiet corner of the shop and actually put it to good use.


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Only one more week to wait for the results!!!


----------



## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

been waiting for this for a long time. opcorn:


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

We are still waiting for some of the manifolds to be delivered. If it comes down to it we will have to postpone the test until further notice.


----------



## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

Come on USPS, FEDEX, and UPS!!


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> So let me recap what just happend:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW!!:laugh::thumbup: Awesome comeback Arin!
That made my night! I litterally almost spit coffee all over my laptop


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Issam,

Would you need an OEM AGU large port intake manifold - passenger side exit?
I can ship it from France. That would be my contribution to this thread if needed.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Issam,
> 
> Would you need an OEM AGU large port intake manifold - passenger side exit?
> I can ship it from France. That would be my contribution to this thread if needed.


I totally forgot about that manifold! Sure if you want to send it over it would be greatly appreciated.

For those who have asked what the Skoda WRC manifold looks like I uploaded 2 images to our fb fan page:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/album.php?aid=352174&id=294598024991


----------



## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

Got the chance to see one of those on a WRC Skoda that was parked inside the Nürburgring complex this last summer. Brilliant looking situation, that car. :beer:


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Issam Abed said:


> I totally forgot about that manifold! Sure if you want to send it over it would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> For those who have asked what the Skoda WRC manifold looks like I uploaded 2 images to our fb fan page:
> http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/album.php?aid=352174&id=294598024991


PM sent for delivery details


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

would you like to add my intake mani to the test? i can have it shipped out on monday to arrive by the 28th hopefully



















edit: pwned page 10!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

derekb727 said:


> would you like to add my intake mani to the test? i can have it shipped out on monday to arrive by the 28th hopefully


Is that Chris Tapp's old intake manifold? I could test it for you just to see how it does but I would hate for your car to be immobile. Send over a pm if you wish.:thumbup:


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## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

looks like an interesting piece, issam. i say do it. :thumbup:


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

i sent you a PM issam

that is one of chris tapps manifolds.

enlarged plenum and shortened runners, 


it would not make my car immobile. i am currently over sea's and it is sitting in my garage. shoot me a reply with the address and i will ship it out monday!


thanks


----------



## Boomdaddymack (Jun 19, 2002)

since the thread with all the throttle body info got way out of hand and locked. can you post up here what ones work best for what setup in this thread thanks in advance:beer:


----------



## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

Yeah, that was obscene.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

FTMFW said:


> Yeah, that was obscene.


It is ok, thank you for the support.


Boomdaddymack said:


> can you post up here what ones work best for what setup in this thread thanks in advance:beer:


Todd,
I assuming you are talking about the 75mm throttle body since that is what alot of people keep asking for.

The 75mm/74mm DBW throttle body comes in alot of Bosch applications but only a few in VDO.I will list out the vehicles that come with a 74/75mm DBW throttle body standard and I will indicate correct or wrong TPS.



Porsche Cayenne 4.5 V8 - Bosch - Wrong TPS
Porsche 996/997 Turbo - Bosch - Wrong TPS
Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG - Bosch - Wrong TPS
Volkswagen Golf MKIV 32 / MV R32 / Audi Q7 / VW Touareg / Porsche Cayenne / Audi Q7- VDO 
Volkswagen Passat 3.6 VR6 / Porsche Cayenne 3.6 VR6 / Audi Q7 3.6 VR6 - VDO 
Audi B5 RS4 - Bosch
VW Passat W8 / VW Phaeton W12 / Audi A8 W12 - Bosch


We do NOT recommend the *022 103 062 AA* & *022 103 062 AG* throttle bodies found in the VW Golf MKIV R32 due to them being bulky, made by VDO (so unserviceable) and having coolant feed tubes on them.
The throttle body we sell with the SEM Motorsport intake manifolds and is a very popular unit do to the o-ring sealer on the throttle body is the Auid B5 RS4 unit which can be found on other applications. PART #: *077 103 062* & *07D 103 062*. 

I want to make it very clear to anyone reading this forum. There is a reason we supply many Porsche & Mercedes-Benz tuning shops around North America with DBW throttle body upgrades. They trust our judgment to use our units on $100,000+ vehicles so you should as well.If you have a question about DBW throttle bodies simply ask. 

Tell us what size throttle body you are looking for and we will give you your options.:thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

love my 80mm/SEM combo..throttle response like an itb na car, ridiculous spool and power past my redline:beer:


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## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

AGU intake manifold just shipped to Issam.

Come on guys, ship your Hypertune, RMR and others to Issam.

Friday is going to be a big day for the 1.8T community!!!!:thumbup:


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

mine is shipped out via ups1z2w8 791 68 4701 1595


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> AGU intake manifold just shipped to Issam.
> 
> Come on guys, ship your Hypertune, RMR and others to Issam.
> 
> Friday is going to be a big day for the 1.8T community!!!!:thumbup:


Hypertune manifold all be it nice , they only made 2 unfortunately 

The major intake manifold I am waiting on to test is the ABD unit. I am anxious to see how that performs. The RMR manifold is discontinued as far as I recall but still will be interesting to see how it does.


----------



## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

on a side note... i was poking around today and found this old thread...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2953254-Intake-Manifold-and-Design/page2

check out post #39! He was a man of his word... just took 5 years! 


Looking forward to this test buddy! The I will challenge the winner to a face off with my manifold design! :laugh:


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

kkkustom said:


> on a side note... i was poking around today and found this old thread...
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2953254-Intake-Manifold-and-Design/page2
> 
> ...


Memory Lane!:laugh:

Wanted to give a public thank you for Arin , Kieth , Evan and rest of the APR team for having an intake manifold sent over to us in time for this. Just ABD and 2 more manifolds to come and then we are good to go.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Can we get a full updated list of the IM that will be tested and how you are going to go about testing them. the IM is the only variable correct?


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Ha ha... Didn't I sell you my double shipment?


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Nevaeh_Speed said:


> Ha ha... Didn't I sell you my double shipment?



who is this to?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

derekb727 said:


> Can we get a full updated list of the IM that will be tested and how you are going to go about testing them. the IM is the only variable correct?


Manifolds I have:


AWP
BAM
AEB
AWM 
Skoda WRC
Dahlback Racing
RMR - large port
INA Longitudinal
SEM longitudinal
SEM Transverse


Manifolds I am being loaned:


APR - large port
ABD Racing
derekb - home brew
AGU large port


The only manipulating variables will be the size of the port and the intake manifold being used. Some intake manifolds only came large port so in order to use them on a small port head , we will need a transition gasket. It will be very disappointing for me to see remarks such as "well you should have used a small port manifold because i bet the results will be different". This intake manifold test is to just prove that certain designs work and others do not. Take what you wish from the test.


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

great cant wait to see some results. 

personally i would like to see tons of pictures and video. a picture of each manifold on the car would be great to get a good visual of the design and setup and stuff

also, mine is a AEB big port head.

woulda been nice to test it on a big port head but beggars cant be choosers and you cant always have your cake and eat it too.


thanks

db


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Issam,

If I understand well you are going to use the stock 60mm TB right?

Do you think that you will have the time to test all those IM in only one day?...:sly:

What would be the next part of your analysis? Exhaust manifold? IC pipe diameter?


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Issam,
> 
> If I understand well you are going to use the stock 60mm TB right?
> 
> ...



no he will be using a 70mm TB on all the IM's


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Oh yes you are right 70mm TB. I should have read page 9 more in details...


----------



## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

Issam Abed said:


> The only manipulating variables will be the size of the port and the intake manifold being used. Some intake manifolds only came large port so in order to use them on a small port head , we will need a transition gasket. It will be very disappointing for me to see remarks such as "well you should have used a small port manifold because i bet the results will be different". This intake manifold test is to just prove that certain designs work and others do not. Take what you wish from the test.



Simple in my mind. You have an AWP manifold and an AWP head. Thats the baseline, lets say 100HP. Then the next is the AEB intake with transition gasket/spacer = 102hp. then maybe test the AEB without the transition spacer, just for sh!ts and giggles.

All people need to know is if the large port IM works better than stock on the small port head, just think what it would do on a mating big port head!


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Issam Abed said:


> Manifolds I have:
> 
> 
> AWP
> ...


 

I gotta hand it to you.... What you are doing for the 1.8T VW/Audi community is priceless, regardless of anything anyone says, I don't see *anyone* else doing this for us and you should really be applauded and commended. A big :thumbup: to Issam, INA, Unitronic, any vendor, company or persons that provided Issam with the manifolds for testing.


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

schwartzmagic said:


> I gotta hand it to you.... What you are doing for the 1.8T VW/Audi community is priceless, regardless of anything anyone says, I don't see *anyone* else doing this for us and you should really be applauded and commended. A big :thumbup: to Issam, INA, Unitronic, any vendor, company or persons that provided Issam with the manifolds for testing.


 
x2 for sure!!! :beer::thumbup::beer:


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Do you think that you will have the time to test all those IM in only one day?...:sly:


 I am going to try. It all depends on Mike Z @ Unitronic. It is obviously alot of pressure on everyone. 


NeverGiveUp said:


> What would be the next part of your analysis? Exhaust manifold? IC pipe diameter?


 Cylinder Head port size and Camshafts. 

I just received your AGU manifold. Thank You so much and thank you everyone for the support.:thumbup:


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

when can we estimate the camshaft tests!?!


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Issam Abed said:


> I am going to try. It all depends on Mike Z @ Unitronic. It is obviously alot of pressure on everyone.
> 
> Thank you everyone for the support.:thumbup:


 I'm sure if you guys get there super early and leave super late you can knock it out. 

14 intake manifolds... 

I'd say it would take you pros an hour (give or take a few minutes) to install, do 3-4 dyno pulls and remove each intake manifold..... Make sure you have plenty of Red Bull or Rockstar energy drinks around because its gonna be a long day. :laugh:


----------



## kkkustom (Jun 5, 2007)

where is the work taking place btw?


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

unitronic i believe


----------



## turbavanttro (Mar 29, 2009)

This is fantastic Issam. The work you do for the community is so valuable. Just add this to the long list of projects you've initated to raise the bar for our community. 

Thanks alot man.:thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer: 

opcorn:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

turbavanttro said:


> This is fantastic Issam. The work you do for the community is so valuable. Just add this to the long list of projects you've initated to raise the bar for our community.
> 
> Thanks alot man.:thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer:
> 
> opcorn:


 ^ what he said


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

can't wait for results..i know, even on my awp and no transistion spacer(no room in the MKI!) that the large port SEM/80mm was 20whp with no tweaks compared to my homebrew with 80mm


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Burn the midnight oil Issam:beer: Its been a long time coming.. And for the record.. 

5 Hour Energy>Red Bull


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Issam Abed said:


> Manifolds I have:
> 
> 
> AWP
> ...


 Hoe. Lee. Crap.  This will make the old manifold test, well, old. It was a long wait but it should be so much better than the original, thanks for the big effort and expense Issam. Very excited to see info for the SEM and INA longitudinals, the Skoda, and the Dahlback (to finally end the Lehman commentary ). Everything else is cream cheese


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

Waiting as well........:beer:


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

just to clarify. 

the INA mani id the one that 16plus4v used on his build right? i havnt really seen any pictures of the INA mani


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

derekb727 said:


> just to clarify.
> 
> the INA mani id the one that 16plus4v used on his build right? i havnt really seen any pictures of the INA mani


 Yes sir


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

awesome, that's what i thought. 

when do you estimate that you will be able to get results posted? sorry, i am just really anxious to see some results.


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

derekb727 said:


> mine is shipped out via ups1z2w8 791 68 4701 1595


 in Windsor this morning so should be to you by Friday for sure!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

derekb727 said:


> awesome, that's what i thought.
> when do you estimate that you will be able to get results posted? sorry, i am just really anxious to see some results.


 I am going to take the time this time around to compile all the data properly. It is obviously alot of testing to do and I want to make sure it is formatted in a way to get the results across clearly and accurately. 

The plan is to throw up 3 dyno chart compilations. 


OEM manifolds 

Aftermarket manifolds - ABD , SEM , APR , etc 

ALL 

 

I received a PM that a hypertune unit may be coming my way for Friday but I am not going to hold my breath for it.


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Cool!!!! If you can get the Hypertune it means that you would have all the well known manifolds which have bene produced so far.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

NeverGiveUp said:


> Cool!!!! If you can get the Hypertune it means that you would have all the well known manifolds which have bene produced so far.


 Problem is not many hypertune manifolds were produced


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Today is D-Day!!!

Can a brotha get some real time updates???

Maybe post at least the whp figures and on what set-up (turbo) you went with for the tests.


----------



## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

Someone should have set up a time-lapse video of the shenanigans. THAT would have been sick. :thumbup: 

Nonetheless, I'm back for updates. opcorn:


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

BobQ has a hypertune and like nobody else. Where's the results!


----------



## Ph8 (Apr 19, 2005)

Seriously. It's after 1pm eastern, you guys should be done and on beer 7 by now. Where are the results?


----------



## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

Sam's probably crunching numbers, pending OD on Redbull, and the computer bursting into flames. Poor guy's gonna try to sleep tonight, only to see scrolling numbers like the Matrix, on the backs of his eyelids. Oh ya....y0, cue the A-Team theme or that song from Weird Science, when they're building the laser. :laugh:


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Results!!!!

NOW!!!!!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

opcorn: 

almost out of popcorn over here...


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

anything?


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

UPS said:


> The Receiver's location was closed on the 1st delivery attempt. A 2nd delivery attempt will be made.


 damn looks like he didnt get mine today, looks like i wasted 50 bucks on shipping


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Yet another :facepalm :UPS fail


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

l88m22vette said:


> Yet another :facepalm :UPS fail


 yah it made it there on Friday, Just nobody was there to receive it. :screwy:


----------



## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

derekb727 said:


> damn looks like he didnt get mine today, looks like i wasted 50 bucks on shipping


 



l88m22vette said:


> Yet another :facepalm: UPS fail


 FYP 

I hate UPS and USPS.... Both Fail-meisters......



derekb727 said:


> yah it made it there on Friday, Just nobody was there to receive it. :screwy:


 What the???? Is Issam a one man show? How could nobody be there?


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Up up up 

We need some news!!!


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

derekb727 said:


> yah it made it there on Friday, Just nobody was there to receive it. :screwy:


  
Was in the office at 9am on Friday. UPS even dropped off 4 packages for us and if they dont they leave them with the unit next door....wierd, Derek lets take this to PM. 
Sorry folks , no results to post right now. Will create a new thread for the intake manifolds when we have all the data to post.


----------



## inivid (Aug 25, 2003)

:beer: to resolution of UPS crap and to you posting your data! I always look forward to your work, bud! :thumbup:


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

inivid said:


> :beer: to resolution of UPS crap and to you posting your data! I always look forward to your work, bud! :thumbup:


 Yes typically we frown on Brown here in Canadia.... 
Highly unreliable and 9 out of 10 times we get dinged with a brokerage and "handling" charge. It is crazy but some US suppliers ONLY ship UPS.


----------



## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

What's the word my man!?


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I just want to know how the 70mm shakes out on an Big Port RMR. Any help?


----------



## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

updates?


----------



## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

is there going to be a new thread w/ the updated info or will it be added into this one? ........

opcorn:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

believe he said he'll make a new thread with the results.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Anyone have an RMR small port manifold for sale? Need one asap.
Thanks:thumbup:


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

Still waiting for the new thread.


----------



## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Almost a year later, did I miss the thread?


----------



## Mindfault (Feb 2, 2010)

In for results


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

:laugh:


----------



## Mindfault (Feb 2, 2010)

Love it


----------



## rains (May 30, 2008)

great info :thumbup:


----------



## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

rains said:


> great info :thumbup:


Fer daizz


----------



## VW indahouse (Feb 25, 2012)

Sorry if this has been answered before; 

I'm going to upgrade from the stock 60mm TB to the Porsche 70mm TB. Is the outside diameter the same size on the TB so my Forge IC to TB hose will fit on the new TB? 

From comparison pictures I've seen of the TB's side by side it looks like the extra diameter comes from the inside. 

Thanks!


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

VW indahouse said:


> Sorry if this has been answered before;
> 
> I'm going to upgrade from the stock 60mm TB to the Porsche 70mm TB. Is the outside diameter the same size on the TB so my Forge IC to TB hose will fit on the new TB?
> 
> ...


 Before you purchase the porsche TB, check with Issam. He's the master of throttle bodies. He'll help you out and make sure you know about any idiosyncrasies


----------



## VW indahouse (Feb 25, 2012)

groggory said:


> Before you purchase the porsche TB, check with Issam. He's the master of throttle bodies. He'll help you out and make sure you know about any idiosyncrasies


 
Thanks mate, yes I will be getting the DBW TB from Issam, and have already PM'd him. I think the part number is 986-605-115-01. I won't need the adaption kit because I'm getting an intake manifold custom made but was just wondering about the pipe size.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

VW indahouse said:


> ....was just wondering about the pipe size.


 Here's how mine looks.


----------



## VW indahouse (Feb 25, 2012)

Brilliant, thanks mate! I will measure my stock one tonight to compare


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

VW indahouse said:


> Sorry if this has been answered before;
> 
> I'm going to upgrade from the stock 60mm TB to the Porsche 70mm TB. Is the outside diameter the same size on the TB so my Forge IC to TB hose will fit on the new TB?
> 
> ...


You will need to change the throttle body hose. 986 Porsche uses the same throttle body as the B5 Audi S4 just different TPS.
HTH


----------



## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

I know this is super late, but how come results for the following tests were never posted?


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

because he forgot lol:facepalm:


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Salsa GTI said:


> because he forgot lol:facepalm:


Did not forget. It takes quite some time to compile the information and unfortunately I can not alot anytime towards "tech" posts until the e-shop and new store front is done. This will get picked up in the new year when it is scheduled to be done.


----------



## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

Almost 36 months of no updates is a very long time...


----------



## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

Almost 36 months of no updates is a very long time...


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

TTguy30 said:


> Almost 36 months of no updates is a very long time...


What updates would you like to bump a thread 20 months after the last post?


----------



## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

INA said:


> What updates would you like to bump a thread 20 months after the last post?




Any chance your gonna do another intake comparison? I.E., SEM, 034, Xcessive, OBX (RMR bootleg), etc.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Nevaeh_Speed said:


> Any chance your gonna do another intake comparison? I.E., SEM, 034, Xcessive, OBX (RMR bootleg), etc.


Allready have the results from RMR , got an Grams (034) unit on hand and will compare against the rest whenever we get around to it. In the grand scheme of things though it does not matter...
People will still believe marketing hype and buy what there wallets can afford regardless of what results get posted.

This is a fine lesson in spend your money in marketing your product vs testing against others.


----------



## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

This test was still basically inconclusive as far as legitimate research goes. Plus typically when a researcher says they will be posting information in a few days it doesn't go to past 3 years...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

TTguy30 said:


> This test was still basically inconclusive as far as legitimate research goes.


Fair enough. 
How did your legitimate research go? What results do you have for the community?


----------



## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

INA said:


> People will still believe marketing hype and buy what there wallets can afford regardless of what results get posted.




I have looked at your info so many times you wouldn't believe. I'm now on my 3rd manifold, 4th if you count stock. I would have be nice to know what really works the best. I don't like buying new manifolds ever year. 


I have also been doing some logging vs the different ones I have used. I basically so which one reduces know the most at the same settings and move on. So trust me Sir your information is valuable to people.


----------



## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

Issam Abed said:


> Fair enough.
> How did your legitimate research go? What results do you have for the community?


Apparently the only response you have is to try to attack me, when you're the one who went on a 3-year hiatus. Telling people something will be posted and basically disappearing makes you look bad. I'm not the one who did that...


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Not sure how to respond to the above but with everything going on internally we simply don't have the time to amalgamate the data , produce it in a readable format and provide it for the community.
When that happens , VWVortex will be the first to see it , until then buy the products you can afford based on the data supplied by the vendors on here.
:thumbup:


----------



## PernellGTI (Jan 1, 2010)

*RS4 Throttle body*

Hey all, I was wondering if anyone has the part number for the rs4 2.7t throttle body, and also, what about the rs4 4.2 v8 one? Would it work?


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Anyone tested a 70mm throttle body with the OEM Small port manifold or even the big port?


Is it worth upgrading the stock 60mm with a 70mm TB while keeping everything else (intake) stock?

Any gains? I would expect better throttle response.


----------



## BISHILVR (Nov 17, 2011)

brwmogazos said:


> Anyone tested a 70mm throttle body with the OEM Small port manifold or even the big port?
> 
> 
> Is it worth upgrading the stock 60mm with a 70mm TB while keeping everything else (intake) stock?
> ...


I would expect just the opposite.


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

BISHILVR said:


> I would expect just the opposite.


The opposite, why?

The big port is a higher flowing mani (ok just a little better flowing than the small port) + a 70mm throttle body wouldnt that combo be better for my 500HP (crank) goals compared to a small port + 60mm TB?


----------



## BISHILVR (Nov 17, 2011)

Due to the loss of intake velocity from the larger throttle plate. There is a reason that manufacturers dont go bigger on throttle bodys and that reason is that there has to be a compromise of drivability vs power, the smaller throttle plate makes the car respond better with the factory cams, valvetrain etc.


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

amalgamate, when's the last time you've shown up on these boards?


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

BISHILVR said:


> Due to the loss of intake velocity from the larger throttle plate. There is a reason that manufacturers dont go bigger on throttle bodys and that reason is that there has to be a compromise of drivability vs power, the smaller throttle plate makes the car respond better with the factory cams, valvetrain etc.



So throttle response will be better with the small port + TB but power wise, however the engine will gain some extra ponies-torque? due to the higher flowing intake (Large port + 70mm TB)?


----------



## BISHILVR (Nov 17, 2011)

brwmogazos said:


> So throttle response will be better with the small port + TB but power wise, however the engine will gain some extra ponies-torque? due to the higher flowing intake (Large port + 70mm TB)?


Yes, its a tradeoff. Bigger ports and throttle bodies allow for more overall flow at wide open throttle, smaller ports and throttle bodies allow for better response.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Keep in mind VAG optimized the TB size for the k03/4 units flowing like 150-200g/s. When we run BT flowing 2-3 times as much oem TB size is no longer optimized. I'd also like to think we don't run optimized BT setups but MAXIMIZED :beer:


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Stay small port. You won't see a big enough difference. Just ask Aaron (speeding-g60).


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

brwmogazos said:


> So throttle response will be better with the small port + TB but power wise, however the engine will gain some extra ponies-torque? due to the higher flowing intake (Large port + 70mm TB)?


remember throttle plate opening is programmable


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

[email protected] Performance said:


> Stay small port. You won't see a big enough difference. Just ask Aaron (speeding-g60).



So you suggest i keep my stock small port manifold and TB or keep the mani and upgrade jus the TB?

Hopefully i can get hold of a big port Agu mani for say 100 dollars. Then a transition gasket will be needed for my small port and obviously a big TB which will cost loads .

I thought i could just gain a few ponies over 4000 rpm to 7500...

Or should i keep the money and install a different camshaft ie IE street for a better overall performance?

What should be better to spend my money on?


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

PernellGTI said:


> Hey all, I was wondering if anyone has the part number for the rs4 2.7t throttle body, and also, what about the rs4 4.2 v8 one? Would it work?


B7 RS4 4.2 V8 is a 90mm throttle body . Actually the same units used in LS2/3/7's believe it or not.

B5 RS4 Part #: 077 133 062
B7 RS4 Part #: 079 133 062 A / 12570790 (GM Part #)

You will not be able to mount a B7 RS4 on any of the manifolds available currently without a very interesting throttle body adapter / configuration due to the bolt pattern.



BISHILVR said:


> Due to the loss of intake velocity from the larger throttle plate. There is a reason that manufacturers dont go bigger on throttle bodys and that reason is that there has to be a compromise of drivability vs power, the smaller throttle plate makes the car respond better with the factory cams, valvetrain etc.


If one assumes that user "brwmogazos" is going from 60mm --> 70mm on an OEM K03 then absolutely yes he would expect poorer throttle response and a reduction in power but if he using a GT28XX frame or larger turbo charger then yes he would expect increased throttle response and additional power. Manufacturers don't go bigger on the throttle body because they design vehicles and engines as systems for 99.99% of the population. Most of the members on this forum represent the 0.01% who don't care about a minute drop in fuel economy.


----------



## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

Start with the cam. It'll show increases regardless of throttle body and plenum size. Then once your finances have setted out again, then start upgrading throttle body and intake mani to optimise the gains available through the cams.


----------



## PernellGTI (Jan 1, 2010)

INA said:


> B7 RS4 4.2 V8 is a 90mm throttle body . Actually the same units used in LS2/3/7's believe it or not.
> 
> B5 RS4 Part #: 077 133 062
> B7 RS4 Part #: 079 133 062 A / 12570790 (GM Part #)
> ...


I didn't know it was 90mm that's a monster. I ended up buying the adapter plate for the VR6 24v TB but I guess I should wait and go with the 70-75 mm TB's. After all the VR6 unit actually decreased the power in your test.. I wonder why. 

Thanks a lot for your help INA!!!


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

PernellGTI said:


> I didn't know it was 90mm that's a monster. I ended up buying the adapter plate for the VR6 24v TB but I guess I should wait and go with the 70-75 mm TB's. After all the VR6 unit actually decreased the power in your test.. I wonder why.
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help INA!!!


I wouldnt say it decreased power. I would say @ the same RPM's it did not make an improvement @ 1 bar over the stock 60mm unit.
I would not go with a 75mm unit unless you had an aftermarket intake manifold.


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

I am just trying to keep calm and avoid spending loads and loads again upgrading my setup. Its not a money issue...its spending for best value for money upgrades.

I would also like to get a SEM, 70mm TB, 6 speed grbx, GTX3071, valvetrain etc however in my small car ( vw polo category) i dont plan to go over 500ps @ the crank.

So the turbocharger will be upgraded for sure with either the 2867 or the 3067 GTX. I dont plan to upgrade the valvetrain so that will remain stock. The gearbox will be upgraded with a 02M as soon as the 02j 5speed breaks down :banghead:.

I am just looking to upgrade the intake a little bit with either a big port OEM (into my small port head) along with the TB (to improve the flow a bit) and maybe a camshaft.

Thats why i am asking if a TB will give you a little extra.


----------



## BISHILVR (Nov 17, 2011)

INA said:


> B7 RS4 4.2 V8 is a 90mm throttle body . Actually the same units used in LS2/3/7's believe it or not.
> 
> B5 RS4 Part #: 077 133 062
> B7 RS4 Part #: 079 133 062 A / 12570790 (GM Part #)
> ...


^^^ Absolutely. We run into a similar dilema in the DSM world with the big port head and the newer small port head. If I was building an all out drag engine then I would take an AEB head and port it, use the bigger intake ported and then use the biggest practical throttle body, keeping in mind that there is no sense in going bigger on the throttle body then the smallest area of your intake pluming. Running a top mount twin scroll GT4202r myself (on my DSM), I of course use the large port setup with supporting pluming.


----------



## mattevandavis (Jun 15, 2006)

brwmogazos said:


> I am just trying to keep calm and avoid spending loads and loads again upgrading my setup. Its not a money issue...its spending for best value for money upgrades.
> 
> I would also like to get a SEM, 70mm TB, 6 speed grbx, GTX3071, valvetrain etc however in my small car ( vw polo category) i dont plan to go over 500ps @ the crank.
> 
> ...



The answer is pretty clear:
A larger TB will not help until you do some other upgrades. 

If you do go big turbo the factory setup will work. It may not be ideal but your only going to see minor increases add you change the TB and intake. So ideal vs not ideal may be 30hp? Probably less. Not a big jump once you have joined the world of 300hp cars.

Spend that $ on better driving skills. Seat time and experience is worth more than the bolt ons. 


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

mattevandavis said:


> The answer is pretty clear:
> A larger TB will not help until you do some other upgrades.
> 
> If you do go big turbo the factory setup will work. It may not be ideal but your only going to see minor increases add you change the TB and intake. So ideal vs not ideal may be 30hp? Probably less. Not a big jump once you have joined the world of 300hp cars.
> ...


A throttle body will set me back say 300 dollars. A big port stock manifold another 100. So thats 400 dollars.

I am ALREADY running a GT28RS turbocharger at full boost (~1.7bar) and i am looking at spending that little extra along with a GTX2867 or 3067 to get the most out of my setup.

So while aiming at arround 500Ps crank with the new upgrades , i am just wondering if my stock TB and intake mani will bottleneck my new turbochargers flow. If the gains are say 20hp which i doubt from these two parts, and my turbocharger is flowing easier through my intake etc then why not? 100RON pump fuel is what i use every day so at full boost we can squeeze as much as possible from the turbocharger+engine.

If those 400 dollars for example are better worth spending for an upgraded intake camshaft i should also be looking into that route too.


So to cut the story short...

is it worth upgrading the TB and mani for setups arround 500Hp crank with small port heads and stock valvetrain?

If i was just looking for peak numbers then i would have decided to go for a GTX3071...without any extra supporting mods...i know thats not what i should be doing however...its better to upgrade overall the engines ability to "digest" extra air-fuel mixture instead of looking for max dyno run numbers to show my friends...


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## mattevandavis (Jun 15, 2006)

In that case my $0.02 would be cams and valvetrain. Methanol would also be in that mix. I know that is well beyond the cost of the mani and tb, but where you are at gains will be small.

I have seen several setups pushing big hp with out changing the tb or intake.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## SamS3 (Jun 6, 2011)

I bought a Hemi TB from a member on here but noticed it looks slightly different from the one IE sells in that it doesn't have the bead rolled type lip to stop the hose blowing off. That's not a problem in itself (can get some tig weld beads added) but it makes me wonder if the TB will be ok to use? How could I test it? 

The part number on it is:
0459 1847 AC


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

SamS3 said:


> I bought a Hemi TB from a member on here but noticed it looks slightly different from the one IE sells in that it doesn't have the bead rolled type lip to stop the hose blowing off. That's not a problem in itself (can get some tig weld beads added) but it makes me wonder if the TB will be ok to use? How could I test it?
> 
> The part number on it is:
> 0459 1847 AC


even the bead rolled lip on the IE one isnt enough to hold the silicone at times.


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## gtronroids (May 9, 2013)

SamS3 said:


> I bought a Hemi TB from a member on here but noticed it looks slightly different from the one IE sells in that it doesn't have the bead rolled type lip to stop the hose blowing off. That's not a problem in itself (can get some tig weld beads added) but it makes me wonder if the TB will be ok to use? How could I test it?
> 
> The part number on it is:
> 0459 1847 AC


I am also curious if the 847 is able to be plugged in like the 801 or 805 and that the only difference is the beads for the hose to stay on. Will the 847 work the same?


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

brwmogazos said:


> So to cut the story short...
> 
> is it worth upgrading the TB and mani for setups arround 500Hp crank with small port heads and stock valvetrain?


I'd say yes...

Unitronic Stage 2
SEM Intake - Small port - 60mm TB
SEM 3" Turbo back w/ high flow catalytic
APR FMIC w/ custom SEM IC piping
AEM CAI










...and here's why on behalf of SEM's R&D:
1) Optimize Efficiency - Yield more power using less fuel - Reduce Brake Specific Fuel Consumption
2) Maximize Power - Increase Power through out the Rev Range
3) Equal Flow Distribution - Equalize Air Fuel Ratio and balance power strokes.
4) POWER 

Stock vs SEM with stock TB - Refer to Dyno

SEM BSFC = 3.496
Fuel = 215 g/kWh

Stock BSFC = 4.047
Fuel = 223 g/kWh


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Very informative....

Seems that the Intake is more important to be upgraded than the stock throttle body...


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## [email protected] Motorsports (Sep 24, 2013)

brwmogazos said:


> Very informative....
> 
> Seems that the Intake is more important to be upgraded than the stock throttle body...


I agree, when it comes to stock and smaller framed turbos; however, as flow increases, you'll want a larger TB to facilitate it.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

look at how long the power stays in the band with the SEM. the huge increase down low as well.


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## platinumdub-18t (Jul 1, 2008)

Vegeta Gti said:


> the huge increase down low as well.


*inserts customary "that's what she said" comment...

on to more serious matters... the way we would look at this in an industrial setting is: throttle plate size directly affects the "control characteristic" of a valve. Bigger is not always better, and more is not always more. Sometimes, the ability to better control your flow will yeild you more result if that improved control consistency works with your tune to allow it to do what it must. As a matter of fact, a control valve throat diameter is almost ALWAYS necked down compared to the inlet/outlet piping diameters to allow for more precision in the control characteristic. Reason is that it raises the enthalpic state of the air by momentarily increasing its velocity (smaller flow cross section @ same mass flow rate = higher gas velocity), and puts it into a more easy-to-control state (more of the flow range experiences laminar state as opposed to non-laminar state). The trade-off is a slightly higher pressure drop, but if you're not choking flow, AND you're operating with a modulating wastegate (ie - wide open throttle... where peak pow-pow happens, and turbo could give you a bit more if required), then you're not losing anything. What you get is a flow characteristic which should be easier to match a tune to.

On the other side of things, over-enlarging to a throttle plate from a pipe (extreme example: 2" fmic pipe into 80mm throttle plate, back into stock manifold) would create a situation where the air passing the through the throttle plate is almost never in a consistent enthalpic state (determined by heat of compression, dew point, charge pressure, etc), so the tune is always 'off' from what it should be. So, at low RPM's a massive throttle plate compared to the general engine displacement/piping size will create a hard-to-control flow characteristic, and will result in a 'crappy idle'. This is rather common with steroid-infused 1.8t's running hemi TB's... THey are magnificent at WOT, but awkward at 'teen-ish' just dubbing around town. Not that there's anything wrong with that, because once WOT happens, its butterflies and rainbow hearts for days.

if you are choking your flow, upsize. if you are not choking your flow, don't worry about it, as your throttling will be very consistent. Match your tune to the actual flow characteristic you have created and *if* that throttle plate allows for high consistency of flow characteristic, your tune will yield the best results for the volumetric efficiency you've got in your head. If your throttle plate is oversized, you have a greater chance of inconsistent operation (eratic flow characteristic - ie "uuggghhhhh... my tune sucks bro") and sometimes its solid and sometimes is just 'off'. If she's undersized, then refer to start of paragraph.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Hello,

been looking for a B5 RS4 Part #: 077 133 062 throttle body on ebay and they are a bit difficult to get hold of in good condition.

what about the 077 133 062*C* ? Would that be the same throttle body in terms of size?

or i should ONLY be looking at the B5 RS4 Part #: 077 133 062 for a 70mm throttle body?


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Anyone?

Is 077 133 062 throttle body the same as 077 133 062*C* throttle body


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

brwmogazos said:


> Anyone?
> 
> Is 077 133 062 throttle body the same as 077 133 062*C* throttle body


Sorry I do not get onto forums that often.
C has the lip for an o-ring (it is off the C5 RS6). It is also not 70mm.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Ouch....


Thanks for replying !


so my only chance is to get hold of a 077 133 062 throttle body then. Any other compatible 70mm throttle bodies out there, i could be looking at?


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## LilNipper (Jun 13, 2015)

Where is the link to the new thread with all the intake mani info? I searched and have found nothing.


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?t=3098525


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