# having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v webers and msd with timing comp



## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*having trouble 16v webers setup...*

Just spend the better time of the eaving trying to figure out how to set the ignition timing. Here is what i have...
stock 2.0l 16v
msd 6al with the timing computer
two dcoe 40's 
and the motor is mated to a g60 tranny and flywheel (dont know if the ignition timing mark is different)
In my book it says to set the ignition timing to 6 degrees BTDC at an engine speed of 2K. Every time i try to get the timing there the motor almost stalls, so i know that this is not the way.. 
Can anyone shed some light on this for me. 
I was going to try to set the timing with the motor at idle and see if that helped... but my battery died and couldn't start it up again.


_Modified by kcbmxer at 9:19 PM 4-29-2009_


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v webers and msd with timing comp (kcbmxer)*

start at 12 degrees BTDC at idle You don't have enough advance yet.


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (antichristonwheels)*

on the flywheel there are two marks... the tdc mark and then just before it is the idle mark. i have a timing light which i can set the advance on. Here is the problem though. It idles great when the advance is like 30ish but when i clock it back to try and set it to 12 it almost stalls out.... should i leave it there and just increase the idle even more?


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

Well im getting some progress. I have set the static timing to 31 degrees.(still not sure if this is good, i have been reading the FAQ and people posted anything from 20 up to 35 degrees. can someone shed light please)
Using a wide band O2 sensor i set the idle to about 900 and then turned the idle mix screws equally until i had a air/fuel of 14.7. I took it down the street and as i am watching the air fuel it gets leaner and leaner towards the top end i saw 17 and didn't want to go any further. 
What is my next step changing the emulsion tubes? or is my idle mix set wrong?


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

for a stock motor, as long as you have about 10-12 initial, and 28-30 overall by 3000. your timing should be really close and you can move on to the carbs. if they are the newer, spanish webers, turn the idle mixture screws 21/2 turns out, fire it up and sync the carbs by using the flow of the inner barrels of each carb. just get it to idle, about 800-1000 rpms. now move on to adjusting the mixture screws , 1 at a time. start with #1 and turn it in 1/2 turn. dont be looking at you wideband at this point. just go by the sound of the motor. if no change go another 1/2. if you notice the rpms drop, then turn back out that last 1/2 turn, wait about 5-10 seconds, and turn back in 1/4 turn. listen for when the motor starts to falter. as soon as you find it, back that screw out 1/2 turn and do the same on all the others. just 1 at a time. when you are done go back to syncing the carbs so they flow the same, using the adjustment screws on your linkage as well as get the idle to where you want. after this, then see what your wideband says and you can then adjust each mixture screw the same, in or out, to find the # you want. i personally would look for 12,5 to no more than 14. 1 for idle. after all this then move on to how well it accelerates, mid and top end performance. good luck


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (candm)*

So let me understand the ignition timing better.... when the engine is at idle (900 rpm) i should take my timing light and set the advance to 11 degrees and turn the distributor while watching the flywheel for the timing notch (not the TDC mark) to match up with the pointer in the inspection hole. Correct?


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

Alright finaly got the ignition timing to 11 degrees at idle and when its at 3000ish the timing is at 28.
First let me say thank you for reminiding me to sync the carbs. they were off and that is were my bad idle was coming from. So after i synced the carbs, i started turning the idle mix screws one at a time. Started with cylinder one. The slightest movement of this screw and there was an imediate recation from the motor, however cylinder 2 didnt seem to react to me turning the air mix screw at all... at one point it was all the way closed and the engine didnt mind. 
My solution (although im sure it is wrong) was to set the cylinder one idle mix screw and then set the other three to the same possition, then i checked the air/fuel and made a slight adjustment to get to 12.5.
The car idles great now. When i increase throttle slowly to over 3k it is very clean and no hesitation, however if i jab the throttle the engine bogs. Should i use one slze larger idle jet?


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

by having all the mixture screws at the same # of turns out, the engine will be running about right, maybe lean, maybe rich, depending where you turned them to. however, not all the barrels are going to be running exactly the same with those screws turned to the same position. that is why i said to do 1 barrel at a time then go to the next. dont do #1 and be 2 turns out , then turn all the other screws the same amount. if nothing happens on a barrel when you adjust the mixture screw, odds are you have a problem, most likely an air leak. when you adjust the mixture csrew in and find where the motor starts to falter, back it out 1/2 turn, then go to the next barrel and turn that screw in, etc. typically, when the motor starts to falter, you can be at 1/4- 3/4, of a turn out, for it to be running right. get all them done that way, resync, set idle, then see how it runs as well as see where your af #s are. typically, if there is a bog, you are rich. if it hesitates, misses, or pops out the front of the carbs, you are lean


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (candm)*

one other thing. if you are less than 11/2 turns out or more than 31/2 turns out, you shold get the next leaner or richer idle jet. if you are rich and you had a 55f8, than go to a 50f8


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (candm)*

Thanks for the clear explanation am going to go play again. I'm going to try to see what the problem is with the #2 cylinder and if i get that going will try the 45 F9 idle jets i have.... Here is the jetting on the carbs right now.
Venturis 33mm
Idle jets F8 (50)
emulsion tubes F16
Main jets 120
Air correctors 190
Pump jets .40
Needles 1.75


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

I tightened up the left carb and i am still not getting any response out of the cylinder #2 idle mix screw. I took out the venturi and aux venturi and reinstalled them thinking that the air bleeder screw under the white cap was not seated correctly, but it is tight and not leaking any air. I also removed the spring and o-ring from the idle mix screw and screwed it in thinking it was bottoming out on the spring and not seating all the way, but still absolutely no change.
What are some other possible air leaks that could cause this to happen. Is it possible that the throttle plate is not correctly aligned??
Also im not going to try the other idle jets till i figure this out...


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

Spent some more time on it... i thought the air leak might have been between the manifold and the head so i took aerosol glass cleaner (the really foamy stuff) and sprayed it on the carb and intake manifold while it was running hoping to see it get sucked in somewhere or to hear the engine bog down a little... but nothing. I was only able to spray from the top, makes me wonder if the leak could be on the bottom of the manifold... If i have time i will take it apart tonight and reinstall it using some black urethane. 
Feel free to ad comments http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif or suggestions http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

starting fluid works well to test for leaks also


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (candm)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ill pick some up in the morning and try again... if there is no leak between the head and the manifold or the manifold and the carb, what on the carb should i check??


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

about the only other thing might be really low compression on that cylinder. make sure when you adjust the mixture screws to wait about 10 seconds in between adjustments and to just listen.just take your time and do 1 barrel at a time. if they are used carbs and there is no air leak between the intake and head or the intake and carbs, it could also be the throttle shaft bushing-bearing, on that side . odds are you have an air leak if there is no change when you adjust the mixture screw and the most common air leak problem is between the carb and the intake when using the soft mounts with 0 rings. they work. you just need to make sure you tighten them evenly and tight enough without overtightening


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## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (candm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *candm* »_starting fluid works well to test for leaks also

great call, the revs will race if it sucks some in!
good talking to you on the phone, looking forward to straitening this thing out


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (Mk2enthusiast)*

So i heard they call you chicken?? whats up with that??
Talked to an old fiend travis, he told me his buddy chicken in torrington had a 16v set up.....
Well here is another update.I took the carb off and cleaned around the o-ring and reinstalled it. Made sure it was nice and snug. and still had the same issue, next i'm going to take the intake manifold off. and use some black rtv between the head and gasket and the gasket and intake manifold. its very difficult to be able to tighten the nuts on the intake manifold there just isn't any room, so i hope that this may be the cause. If this does not remedy the problem is it possible it is the bearing or the throttle plate??


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

if i had to guess, with all i have been through with my dual weber setup, you probably have an air leak between the intake and head or the carbs and the intake. i have a 2 piece, long, pierce manifold and had somewhat, similar issues. for one, you cannot get a torque wrench on the lower bolts that mount the intake to the head, top ones, yes. just tighten all a little bit at a time and when it comes to torquing the uppers, put a wrench on them afterwards to approximate the torque by feel ( i think 15 on the head ) and by feel , do the bottom ones with a wrench, on the carbs to intake with the softmounts, ( i use the thackery, or spring washers ) tighten all locknuts by hand, then turn by wrench or socket wrench, all about 1 turn at atime, until they get snug. at this point, there will be about no gap inbetween the coils of the spring washers. then, back them all off 3/4 of a turn. i have done this numerous times with no problems


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (candm)*

Took the intake off, and it looks like that may have been the problem. I'm going to machine the intake a little to get better clearance for the nuts, cause tightening them is impossible right now... then i will reinstall with a little rtv just in case. will post the outcome hopefully tomorrow.
Oh almost forgot , there seems to be some fuel leaking from the back of the carbs, in between the runners there is a rectangular plate, looks like that is where it is leaking from... ill take some pics and post them later.


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## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

hmmm, leaky chokes are problematic on DCOEs, olny from what I've been told, no problems with mine. 
chicken







what do you know about trav? see you at the shop in tttown soon I believe http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (Mk2enthusiast)*

so here are some pics... i took a look at the back of the carbs and they were soaked with fuel... I suspect that its the float bowl gasket that is leaking, you can see it pool up in a few spots... ill let the pictures do the explaining.


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## kcbmxer (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

Go figure this type of crap only happens to me... 
I figured out my problem and why i couldn't adjust the #2 cylinder...
Lets play which jet is different and does not belong

















I was so frustrated when i saw this it really pissed me off. Anyway im gonna put it back together and use a set of smaller idle jets until the new one comes some time next week. Also got some new gaskets for the top of the carbs, hopefully that's were the leak is coming from. 


_Modified by kcbmxer at 4:53 PM 5-5-2009_


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: having trouble seting ignition timing on 2.0l 16v we ... (kcbmxer)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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