# Does the 10K mile oil change interval bother anybody else besides me?



## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

I realize that the quality of oils has improved dramatically during recent years...but the VW recommended 10K mile oil change interval for the new TSI engine seems a bit too long in my opinionated opinion. Does anyone else do intermediate oil changes on their own dime? I have been running Mobil-1 0W40 in my MY2000 1.8T, but I feel guilty if I leave it in longer than about 7K miles...and I think I'm going to have a hard time (mentally) going 10K miles between changes in my new MY2010 TSI Passat Wagon.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

first oil change at 1.5k, then 5k, then no more than every 5k after that... use the free dealership changes whenever applicable within those intervals. pretty easy to just man up on the rest of the changes, especially if you turn your own wrenches... what is your break-in methodology going to consist of? 

i would seriously consider selecting another oil besides Mobil 1 0w40... there are inherent design differences between your old 1.8T and the new 2.0T that necessitate a stouter oil. I suggest browsing the forums (both vwvortex and BITOG) for some of the UOAs floating around for this motor. I promise it is worth the time because of all the 2.0T knowledge you will learn :beer:


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## animaniac (May 26, 2005)

No, i've always run at the 10k interval, using semi or fully synthetic oil. 

I see no point in running 3 or 5k on oil and then changing it, oil isnt cheap enough to waste, and it is a waste because vw have recommended the 10k interval so it's best to stick to that. 

As for the 20k longlife oils, i'm not convinced that stuff works. 

The 10k interval is tried and tested 173k on my engine and it's still clean and going strong, but it's not the 10k interval which has me worried it's the extended longlife one. 

But obviously time will tell if the longlife oils work, because if they don't theses new engines will soon be toast.


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## vdub18njp (Feb 26, 2009)

*This really bothers me*

The logic behind this is simple: 

The government wanted car manufactures to cut down costs on their cars in regards to service as well as to eliminate the dependency on foreign oil, so they have extended the service interval on an oil change to address this. 

:banghead: 

If you ask ANY car enthusiast about this, they will laugh and tell you that oil is the blood for your car. And that being on top of oil changes is one of the best forms or preventative maintenance possible to do to your car besides keeping gas in the tank. The consequences of neglecting to change oil religiously are extremely harmful to any car, so stop being cheap people and pay small amounts in closer intervals rather than paying a huge chuck of money at once because you didn't want to spend $60-$80 bucks every other month for a proper oil change 

Change your oil! :thumbup:


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

I stay with 5K miles or 6 months. 10,000 miles is just too many miles, the best oil is cheep compared to engine problems.


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

rhouse181, 

In principle I agree with you on the whole man up and do your own oil changes philosophy, but unfortunately I'm now a paraplegic in a wheelchair, so doing my own oil changes isn't really an option (even with the Mityvac fluid extractor that I bought a couple of years ago once I began having physical issues crawling under my car to do my own oil changes). 

I do want to start reading up to learn as much as I can about my new 2.0T TSI marvel of engineering, but in a nutshell, what are these design differences you elude to that make Mobil-1 0W40 a less than optimal choice? 

My break-in methodology will consist of mainly routine city driving for a couple of months, intermingled with a few highway jaunts with increasing amounts of floggery once some miles add up on the odometer...then in August (once we have at least 1000 miles on it), we plan to go on a long vacation (Wisconsin to Washington State and back).


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

I think you have to use the right interval for your application. On some cars 10k is just fine with good oil. On the 2.0 FSI 5k is about the max. for most conditions (95% highway use 10k has shown to be fine). We don't have enough used oil analyses (UOA) yet on the TSI to say for sure how long it can go. 

A safe bet would be to use a 5k interval and do a UOA. That will tell you if you can extend the OCI. Blackstone labs http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ is one place you can get a UOA done. 

When breaking in a new car, some people advise to change out the factory fill on the early side and stay with shorter oil change intervals until the car is fully broken in (say at 10k miles for example).


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

sbachmeier said:


> rhouse181,
> 
> I do want to start reading up to learn as much as I can about my new 2.0T TSI marvel of engineering, but in a nutshell, what are these design differences you elude to that make Mobil-1 0W40 a less than optimal choice?
> 
> My break-in methodology will consist of mainly routine city driving for a couple of months, intermingled with a few highway jaunts with increasing amounts of floggery once some miles add up on the odometer...then in August (once we have at least 1000 miles on it), we plan to go on a long vacation (Wisconsin to Washington State and back).


The main issues I would worry about with your TSI are fuel dilution and oil sheering. For some reason, the US spec direct injection motors have a high propensity for fuel accumulation in the oil. The prevailing cause (IMO) of this occurrence stems from the factory tuning differences of US vs. Euro spec cars. In Europe with their low sulfur fuels, the ECU runs in lean stratified charge burn mode and can still get away with emissions regulations with fancy catalytic converters. Lean stratified charge uses the injectors to "shape" the fuel delivery, leaving a pocket of dense fuel in the bowl of the piston. here in the US our high sulfur fuels do not allow for the use of these fancy catalysts and lean stratified charge, and we get with super rich / fuel diluting motors. 

certain types of oils combat fuel dilution better than others. PAO based oils are the bottom end of the spectrum, and polyol ester based oils are the superior. so far from the 70 or so UOAs floating around for the FSI, vw approved oils all perform relatively similar with regards to preventing fuel dilution. from my experience, they are pretty used up after only 3.5-4k miles. as for Mobil 1 0w40 specifically (a PAO), it has consistently performed as one of the worst vw approval oils. the broad viscosity rating means that the oil has a lot of friction modifiers to allow it to be thin when cool, and maintain its weight when warm. these friction modifiers sheer easily (or loose their ability to perform as designed). the byproduct of this sheering is compromised protection of your brand new motor, which will lead to increased wear and oil volatility (which exacerbates the intake valve deposit issue). 

if you want to stick with a vw approved oil (tried 4 different types), i've had the best results with Motul X-Cess 8100 . but if you want the best, i'm in love with Redline (polyol ester). 

make sure you work that motor reasonably hard right off the bat to seat those rings (no banging the redline, but strenuous exercise varying load and rpm). there are a lot of cars floating around that chug oil because they were babied when brand new...


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

Thanks for that detailed information -- I appreciate it. I used to use Redline products back when I had a 1985 BMW 325e (and lots of disposable income), but had fallen into the habit of using Mobil-1 over the years due to lower cost and easy availability. 

I had actually sent in a couple of used oil samples to Blackstone once my 1.8T passed the 100K mile mark, and they did mention some small amounts of fuel dilution. So perhaps I'll heed your Motul or Redline suggestion.

Any ideas what oil the VW factory puts into the TSI motors before they load 'em on the boat?


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

i think VW uses Fuchs for its factory fill, not really sure of the specific type though



sbachmeier said:


> I used to use Redline products back when I had a 1985 BMW 325e (and lots of disposable income


good taste, i have an 87 eta build sitting in my garage right now. next step is to get rid of that autotragic...


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## zig0zag (Sep 5, 2004)

I dont do it but I dont think its insanity. I think the 3k interval is excessive especially on synthetic. I wouldn't argue with someone that changes at 10k atleast they are actually changing the oil . I know some people who dont know squat about cars and forget to change their oil for god knows how long or how many miles.


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## animaniac (May 26, 2005)

sbachmeier said:


> rhouse181,
> 
> I'm now a paraplegic in a wheelchair, so doing my own oil changes isn't really an option (even with the Mityvac fluid extractor that I bought a couple of years ago once I began having physical issues crawling under my car to do my own oil changes).


Sorry to hear of this, words can't describe how bad it must be not to be able to walk, we all seem to have problems in life, even though my problems may seem big to me, they seem pretty much irellivent when compared against other peoples, but everytime i come across less fortunate people i always count myself lucky.


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

animaniac said:


> words can't describe how bad it must be not to be able to walk


Thanks animaniac. While it sucks not being able to walk, it sucks even more not being able to DRIVE.  However, that will soon be fixed, thanks to VWs "Mobility Assistance" program which will reimburse us up to $1000 toward the purchase of hand controls that will allow me to drive the 2010 Passat Wagon that we just bought. I can't wait to finally flog the delicious combination of TSI + DSG!


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## animaniac (May 26, 2005)

I hope the day comes when scientists can regrow nerves, and cure spinal injurys and other things all the way up to more complex stuff like optic nerves and brain damage.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

With modern synthetics and engines, 10K might not be unreasonable.


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

Instead of guessing send samples to a lab to be analyzed. Then as you develop a foundation of how your specific engine uses the oil you can start to feel comfortable with the 10k changes. Most labs charge way less than the cost of an oil change with a good quality oil & filter for this and it gives you so much more valuable information than speculation and opinion ever could.


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## wkc51 (May 14, 2004)

*Blackstone Lab Oil Report*

I have a Blackstone lab report on a 2.5 2009 Jetta SW, with 9500 miles, factory fill. The analysis is not very comforting. I'll forward it to anyone who can post it on the thread (PDF file). I also provided a copy to the local VW dealership for their information. Will see them Tuesday for the first complimentary oil change.

I intend to pull and submit another sample at 16000 miles, to confirm the Blackstone recommendation.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

wkc51, I can post it for you if you want. pm sent.


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

The first change or two on a fresh engine can be pretty scary. Had the same heart attack results on a 7.3 Ford so I called the lab. They had a senior guy look at it and suggest it looked normal for a new engine and that I should see a trend towards lower levels across the board as it broke in. Sure enough as I got to around 30,000 everything settled down and I had very similar results every 10k (bypass filtration) (with changes at 20k just to make me feel good). I sold it with 200k on the clock to a landscaper, I see it a few times a month and it's got to have over 300k on it and seems to be getting along just fine.

If something is just totally off the charts there might be something to show the dealer. As long as you keep the records and have documentation that you showed them as well there should be no big suprise if something bad does happen and they can't say you din't point out the problem before it got expensive. Honesly most dealerships have no idea what a lab report looks like or what it can tell them about the internal condition and possible looming issues of an engine. A few rare mechanics will understand them and see them for the tool they are but not many that haven't working on heavy diesels.


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## bmxsic (Apr 9, 2008)

.02

AMSoil is pretty amazing. Don't believe me? Here:
25k mile interval/one year - They have a car
that's been running amsoil its whole life, 
heres the kicker, million+ miles on it.

AMSoil has done its test and proved it works.
And heres there thing. If THEIR oil causes
destruction of your motor because of the
extended drainage times, they will replace
your motor no hassle.. And they've never 
had to because its never happened.. yet
at least.

Now im not a dealer or anything with AMSoil, 
i've just done my research. Take it or leave it.


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## stratclub (Feb 3, 2007)

Don't drink the AMSoil Cool-Aid. AMSoil does not have *any *oil that has been *approved *by VOA. Seems that AMSoil doesn't feel a need to actually have their oils approved by the automotive manufacturer. Their claim of 25K oil change interval has already been proven in Europe with oil monitoring systems and VAG approved oils.

Change your oil with VOA approved oil at the recommended interval and your engine will last well beyond 100K miles.

AS far as AMSoils engine replacement guarantee, I would say that it is pure marketing...................


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

stratclub said:


> Change your oil with VOA approved oil at the recommended interval and your engine will last well beyond 100K miles.


depends on what motor you have. non of the best performing oils in the 2.0T are on the vw approved oil list... that list is basically a revenue generation ploy for vw, just like stamping the oil cap with castrol... 

as for the recommended change intervals... that's a crock of **** too, influence by cost of ownership statistics instead of whats best for mechanical longevity.

i'm dumbfounded that every time i visit a vw dealership, i end up teaching the shop foreman about the cars he is supposed to be an expert on... be an educated consumer, not a naive follower. BP originally told the world that only 5k barrels of oil were leaking into the gulf, did that end up being true?


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

stratclub said:


> Change your oil with VOA approved oil at the recommended interval and your engine will last well beyond 100K miles.


Agreed.


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## rickadoe (Dec 8, 2009)

*Hmm...*



stratclub said:


> Don't drink the AMSoil Cool-Aid. AMSoil does not have *any *oil that has been *approved *by VOA. Seems that AMSoil doesn't feel a need to actually have their oils approved by the automotive manufacturer. Their claim of 25K oil change interval has already been proven in Europe with oil monitoring systems and VAG approved oils.
> 
> Change your oil with VOA approved oil at the recommended interval and your engine will last well beyond 100K miles.
> 
> AS far as AMSoils engine replacement guarantee, I would say that it is pure marketing...................


Did you know...that in order to be on the VOA list you have to pay to be on it. Amsoil felt that they should not have to PAY just to be on a list. If they had to pay then they would have to carry over the cost to its customers...right?...they have products that exceed vw spec. this is from their site.. 
AMSOIL 100% Synthetic European Car Formula is formulated to surpass the most demanding European specifications. It is recommended for European and North American gasoline or diesel vehicles requiring any of the following worldwide specifications:

* API SM/CF
* ACEA C3
* ACEA A3/B3
* ACEA A3/B4
* BMW LL-04
* Mercedes Benz 229.31, 229.51
* Porsche
* Saab
* Volvo
* Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01
* DaimlerChrysler MS-10725

Service Life....
Recommended for the extended drain intervals established by the vehicle manufacturer or extend based on oil analysis. Change oil filter at time of oil change.


So you can go longer than manufacturer recommends, IF you do an Oil analysis and it says its okay to do so.

you just have to do research. compare apple to apples etc. some, have certain feelings towards Amsoil. I say do the research and take out opinions. you will like wutever works for you, cost wise and performance wise. research, research, research....best of luck


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## slowbluVW (Oct 15, 2002)

10K oil change? Not for me because oil and filters are cheap...rebuilding or replacing engines is not. I change mine every 5K with Shell Rotella Syn 5W40 and a Purolator Pure One filter and do not ever see changing that routine no matter what VW says. Everbody knows about their "lifetime ATF" too right? LMAO!


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## mexglx (Apr 22, 2003)

I think 10K intervals are absolutely OK. I sell diesel engines for semis with oil change intervals of 25K miles or more. Our car engines are not built the same way as diesels but they don't work as hard either. We actually go up to 40K mile intervals and many fleets push them out to 50-70K.

Here are the issues. Engines can contaminate the oil with fuel, coolant, combustion gases, heat and then the oil stops doing its job when it can no longer suspend the contaminates and lubricate. You can eventually plug the oil filter and lose oil pressure. Oil sample testing can help find problems before damage can really be done. In a perfect world no engine would put fuel, coolant, combustion gases into the oil and oil would last as long as gear oil. So if you don't have a sick engine 10K is absolutely possible, especially if you add oil as needed during the interval. Topping off the oil anytime it drops below the fill line replenishes the additive package in the oil.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

10000mi OCI with a high maintenance engine like the 2.0T is the worst idea ever. It might be okay for a car that has a 7L oil pan.. but that's still not saying there's an oil that lasts that long. 
I'll never go more than 5000mi, personally.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

slowbluVW said:


> 10K oil change? Not for me because oil and filters are cheap...rebuilding or replacing engines is not. I change mine every 5K with Shell Rotella Syn 5W40 and a Purolator Pure One filter and do not ever see changing that routine no matter what VW says. Everbody knows about their "lifetime ATF" too right? LMAO!


I do the same, except with a Fram filter. I posted my latest UOA in the Rotella T 5w 40 thread if anyone cares to look. The 501 list is crap, IMHO.


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## skier45 (Jul 27, 2009)

*oil change*

I've owned or own 3 vw turbo powered autos. None used any oil in the first 4000 miles after an oil change and all started to use it thereafter. Therfore that is what I personaly use for an oil change interval. Does'nt matter if its Mobil1, Total or Fuchs vw 502. My 02 Jetta had 140000 mile when I smacked it up and it was the same as the day I bought it, 03 passat (117000) and 06 Jetta 2.0 (64000) have given the same results.

As for the factory interval, nobody mentions the exceptions listed in the owners manual. Surely most of use fall into at least one of the catagories for more frequent oil changes.

As for vw 502, my 06 manual also states that acea A3 is acceptable. From what I can tell all 502 oils are A3/B4 acea. I've read they are parallel standards. There are a few A3/B4 oils that are not 502 but my guess is they're fine.


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## VDUB MKIV (Jun 14, 2008)

I do my oil change every 2K miles


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

I posted 501 above when I meant 502. Good point on reading the manual for exceptions, BTW. Far too few people think to pick up an actual book these days.:beer:


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## ocellaris (Sep 6, 2009)

wkc51 said:


> I have a Blackstone lab report on a 2.5 2009 Jetta SW, with 9500 miles, factory fill. The analysis is not very comforting. I'll forward it to anyone who can post it on the thread (PDF file). I also provided a copy to the local VW dealership for their information. Will see them Tuesday for the first complimentary oil change.
> 
> I intend to pull and submit another sample at 16000 miles, to confirm the Blackstone recommendation.


Can someone post this? I want to see if, I went 9800 miles on my 2009 Jetta 2.5 before the first change.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

ocellaris said:


> Can someone post this? I want to see if, I went 9800 miles on my 2009 Jetta 2.5 before the first change.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ctory-fill-9500-miles-Used-oil-Analysis-(UOA)


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## MoleculeMan (Sep 26, 2009)

*Can't be too careful*

I too don't believe VW engineers' claim of 10,000 miles between oil changes. Just because a bunch of propeller head engineers who designed the engines and tested them with sophisticated equipment make educated statements on oil longevity doesn't mean they're right.

Me- I'll depend on my opinions and mythology. I change my oil everyday. One metal particulate suspended in oil is one too many.


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

rickadoe said:


> Did you know...that in order to be on the VOA list you have to pay to be on it.


I wonder how much this actually costs? I really, *really* want to use Redline...but for fear of unforseen warranty issues, I guess I'll stick with Motul 8100 X-cess. But what if all of us potential Redline users made a donation towards the payment of this unknown fee to be on the magical "Approved by VW" list? I'd pay $50 or so to be able to use the best oil for the life of the car (I tend to keep cars for 10 years or more).

Redline not being on the approved oil list is FUBAR...


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## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

oils along with engines have improved overtime, the old 3k or 3 months is not as sound as before, unless you like to waste money do what the oil companies tell you and keep buying their product 

except for oil sludge-prone engines I will stick with OEM intervalsopcorn:

look at it another way manufacturers want 10k service while oil stations/companies want 3months/3k changes......why?

you got to get an unbias opinion.. do an oil analysis


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

*Motul 8100 X-cess: what's the Pour Point?*

Speaking of Motul 8100 X-cess 5W40...I went ahead and placed my order for my first oil change (decided to do it at around 1000 miles, *before* we drive on a marathon 3500-4000 mile summer vacation in August). However, I was somewhat apprehensive of the Pour Point that was listed in a PDF specification sheet (dated 09/04) that I found on the Internets: it was -27 F, which can happen here in Wisconsin several times in any given winter. 

However, then I ran across another specification sheet (dated 09/02) that listed the Pour Point as -38 F: much more comforting for our winter climate.

So, which is the real pour point? The -27 F number seems out of character for a synthetic oil...


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

sbachmeier said:


> I wonder how much this actually costs? I really, *really* want to use Redline...but for fear of unforseen warranty issues, I guess I'll stick with Motul 8100 X-cess. But what if all of us potential Redline users made a donation towards the payment of this unknown fee to be on the magical "Approved by VW" list? I'd pay $50 or so to be able to use the best oil for the life of the car (I tend to keep cars for 10 years or more).
> 
> Redline not being on the approved oil list is FUBAR...


you sound very irrational. If you want to use Redline you should. After seeing UOA's i'm convinced it's not only acceptable it's one of the best.
Your engine won't melt.. well, it won't due to using Redline.
The only reason i don't use it is the cost being too high (in my area= $100) +filter.


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

I'm only irrational in the sense that I fear VWoA would somehow irrationally claim that "Well, this problem occurred because you did not use an oil that is on the VW Approved List, so the warranty repairs will not be covered". I mean, sometimes turbos and whatnot fail for no good reason. And rationally speaking, I'd hate to have to eat the cost of something like a turbo replacement because I was smart enough to use what I felt to be the best oil possible.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

sbachmeier said:


> I wonder how much this actually costs?...


The numbers I have heard is around $250,000 per formulation, per VW specification, for a three year period. If those numbers are correct, this "oil certification" is big money for VAG, somewhere on the order of $125 million or so every 3 years. And that excludes any marketing agreements such as Castrol has to have their name on the oil cap.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

Can you verify what you heard? Thanks.


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

saaber2 said:


> The numbers I have heard is around $250,000 per formulation, per VW specification, for a three year period.


Holy hydrocracking, that's a lot of money. No wonder so many oil companies are teetering on the edge of insolvency!


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

BassNotes said:


> Can you verify what you heard? Thanks.


Your antagonistic, one line comments that add no value to this thread are awesome :thumbup:

Saaber2, good to see some numbers on the revenue generation derived from "certifying" vw approved oils...


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

rhouse181 said:


> Saaber2, good to see some numbers on the revenue generation derived from "certifying" vw approved oils...


Even if they're just numbers that he "heard?"

IMHO it would be good to see if that number is real or not.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

BassNotes said:


> Even if they're just numbers that he "heard?"
> 
> IMHO it would be good to see if that number is real or not.


I hear you, but these numbers are not public domain and are not published by VW... If you want to split hairs on a value that you know is impossible to prove, then your single motivation is to be argumentative. He prefaced his comment by saying he "heard" these values, meaning that they were not verified. Why don't you do some independent research yourself to see if you can determine the actual number and better the value of this thread? 

Until a more accurate number is sourced, this is the best we have to work from. 

As for 10k oil changes, we have over a 100 UOAs from 2.0T that prove vw502 approved oils cannot last that long without serious loss in performance. This statistical base is irrefutable, but you still argue that 10k changes on "modern engines and synthetics" are just peachy without providing any supporting evidence. sorry for being an a-hole, but you need to establish credibility for an argument before anyone will take it seriously...


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

rhouse181 said:


> I hear you, but these numbers are not public domain and are not published by VW... If you want to split hairs on a value that you know is impossible to prove, then your single motivation is to be argumentative. He prefaced his comment by saying he "heard" these values, meaning that they were not verified. Why don't you do some independent research yourself to see if you can determine the actual number and better the value of this thread?


Sorry, I'm not the one making the allegation that suitable oils don't make the VW list because their manufacturers don't pay up, and that VAG uses the 502/505 list as a revenue source. The onus of providing supporting evidence is on those who want to make that point.

My motivation is not to be argumentative but to point out that a rumor can't be substantiated by another rumor. So I asked if what saaber2 "heard" can be substantiated. What's wrong with that?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Bassnotes, I heard this from an motor oil industry executive who is familiar with the testing costs, but he didn't give me precise numbers, only rough numbers. I really can't say more on that conversation.

I also read this in a couple places in relation to Motul oils and their testing costs. Try googling motul 502 testing costs or something similar to find those threads. As I recall, the poster of those threads had three letters from VAG to Motul, so the info. sounded credible to me. It might take some digging but you can find those threads on the web. I wish I had bookmarked them.


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

Quoted from an email response, received today by Red Line, pertaining to the certification of their products to vw502 spec:

"Randall,

Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, I am not aware of the specifics regarding the VW oil approval process. Products are typically selected by the manufacturer from widely available products and independently tested, rather than being solicited. 

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil"

Seems like the issue of certification is handled by VW, and its an invite only contest... As they say, on to the next one. Have to contact VWOA next...


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## STVR6 (Jul 6, 2010)

Redline products are excellent. But *Mobil-1 0W-40 *every 5000 miles is fine with me.


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## slowbluVW (Oct 15, 2002)

mexglx said:


> I think 10K intervals are absolutely OK. I sell diesel engines for semis with oil change intervals of 25K miles or more. Our car engines are not built the same way as diesels but they don't work as hard either. We actually go up to 40K mile intervals and many fleets push them out to 50-70K.
> 
> Here are the issues. Engines can contaminate the oil with fuel, coolant, combustion gases, heat and then the oil stops doing its job when it can no longer suspend the contaminates and lubricate. You can eventually plug the oil filter and lose oil pressure. Oil sample testing can help find problems before damage can really be done. In a perfect world no engine would put fuel, coolant, combustion gases into the oil and oil would last as long as gear oil. So if you don't have a sick engine 10K is absolutely possible, especially if you add oil as needed during the interval. Topping off the oil anytime it drops below the fill line replenishes the additive package in the oil.


Apples and oranges here. Everybody knows big rig diesels EASILY go 20K and up on OCIs. I feel your typical VW gas burning engines cannot reliably do extended OCIs over the life of the engine due to a few factors. Oil pan capacity and filtering capacity are the #1 and #2 reasons. Those big rigs hold multiple gallons of oil with absolutely huge dual oil filters, of which themselves hold multiple quarts of oil a piece. Not to mention they sometimes have huge oil coolers that also hold multiple quarts of oil Those factors are one of the main reasons big rig diesels can do such a long OCI. The typical VW 4cyl engine holds a little over a gallon of oil with a very small single filter that holds at most half a quart of oil. That's not enough oil capacity and filtering ability/contaminate holding ability to go with a 10K OCI. With that said, I would feel comfortable stretching a VW's OCI to 10K IF the pan held AT LEAST 3 more quarts of oil and used a filter with AT LEAST double the filtering media and increased oil holding capacity. That would be the only way I would play in the VW 10K OCI game. VW's marketing jibberish they use to sell cars does nothing for me because their engine oiling system engineering falls a bit shy of being able to live up to their claims in the long run. This is my opinion on the matter. lol


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

Apples, orange, peaches, pears and tomatoes LOL! So many ideas on what is "right" are based on old tech oils, filters as well as materials, manufacturing and engineering. Back when 3,000 mile changes were required an 8 track tape was about as good as it got. Old ideas die hard because fact can't get in the way of proven fiction. Realizing that in this day of exceptionally better materials, manufacturing, engineering and yes even oil and filter media can seem difficult. Hopefully somebody can come up with a 8 track to iPod interface for those that can't make the shift.


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## slowbluVW (Oct 15, 2002)

Patman-TX said:


> Apples, orange, peaches, pears and tomatoes LOL! So many ideas on what is "right" are based on old tech oils, filters as well as materials, manufacturing and engineering. Back when 3,000 mile changes were required an 8 track tape was about as good as it got. Old ideas die hard because fact can't get in the way of proven fiction. Realizing that in this day of exceptionally better materials, manufacturing, engineering and yes even oil and filter media can seem difficult. Hopefully somebody can come up with a 8 track to iPod interface for those that can't make the shift.


Uh buddy, 3000 mile OCIs are still recommended to this day by the OEMS for severe duty use. VW engines are not immune from this even if VW doesn't put it in the owner's manual. Do the math, an oil change is $40. A new engine is a few thousand.


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

slowbluVW said:



> Uh buddy, 3000 mile OCIs are still recommended to this day by the OEMS for severe duty use. VW engines are not immune from this even if VW doesn't put it in the owner's manual. Do the math, an oil change is $40. A new engine is a few thousand.


Really? I can't seem to find that documentation can you please provide a link? See I actually WANT to investigate this so I can become further educated on the topic and not provide speculative information. I mean it's not that I don't believe you but,... well I have no idea what your qualifications are. If you can't turn up a link maybe some more information on your specific areas of expertise with regard to lubrication, filtration, materials and manufacturing technology would be very helpful, published papers on these areas would be great!


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

I guess I should mention that I have a '99 A4 and a '00 TT both with 1.8T. Both have followed the standard maintenance schedule, both have operated in central Texas heat & dust since new, both have an extensive paper trail. The TT actually has everything documented as being dealer serviced and neither burns oil, both have normal compression levels and no leaks. The A4 has 126k and the TT 146k with another 100k being a reasonable expectation on each. Once I purchased each of them I switched them over to Amsoil lubes with Amsoil or Mann filters for the past 20k or so.


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## mexglx (Apr 22, 2003)

You are supposed to change the first one at 5000 miles BTW.



wkc51 said:


> I have a Blackstone lab report on a 2.5 2009 Jetta SW, with 9500 miles, factory fill. The analysis is not very comforting. I'll forward it to anyone who can post it on the thread (PDF file). I also provided a copy to the local VW dealership for their information. Will see them Tuesday for the first complimentary oil change.
> 
> I intend to pull and submit another sample at 16000 miles, to confirm the Blackstone recommendation.


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## mexglx (Apr 22, 2003)

So we shouldn't believe the oil companies and we shouldn't believe the car makers but we should believe you. Sounds good to me.:screwy:



rhouse181 said:


> depends on what motor you have. non of the best performing oils in the 2.0T are on the vw approved oil list... that list is basically a revenue generation ploy for vw, just like stamping the oil cap with castrol...
> 
> as for the recommended change intervals... that's a crock of **** too, influence by cost of ownership statistics instead of whats best for mechanical longevity.
> 
> i'm dumbfounded that every time i visit a vw dealership, i end up teaching the shop foreman about the cars he is supposed to be an expert on... be an educated consumer, not a naive follower. BP originally told the world that only 5k barrels of oil were leaking into the gulf, did that end up being true?


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

"Randall,

I would expect a testing, licensing and royalty fees would be assessed. It would be nice to have the 502.00 but not likely in the cards.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil"


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

The engines designed for these much longer intervals hold more than 4.5 litres.. we're talking 8L at least.. so in the case of these little vw engines we have, my opinion is that 10000mi OCIs are not the best idea for longevity.


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

It's more about the quality of lubricant & filtration than vast quantities of poorly filtered lube. Using a quality lab to monitor the state of the oil coming out of and engine is the only way to have real knowledge of what may or may not work on any given combination of engine, oil & filter. Speculation and guesstimation are the downfall of any technical discussion because there is no way to prove them as a working solution or a waste of money and resources.

Most folks go to a professional for health issues and to get their Rx filled not a local terrot card reader and witch doctor, treat you vehicle with at least a little of the same concern.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

i agree with quality products being better, and analysis to prove it.. but LL oils and OCIs for 20000-25000km (BMW & Mercedes to name a few) have deeper pans to help.. and they're just bigger engines too. 
Smaller motor do a lot more work.
For VW to push it on these 4 cylinder engines is only to dupe average people into thinking less maintenance= a better made car.
I haven't seen a favorable UOA for a 10000mi run yet... have you?


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

I do for 8k with Amsoil products (unapproved BTW)  but that is my service interval. My tractor holds a whopping 3 quarts and it comes out at the service interval looking like nothing you have seen from a 10k oil change. Funny thing is it still is good to lubricate it just is holding a lot of contamination. 

If folks want to change oil more often they surely can but doing so is a false sense of security. How so? A 3k oil change will not reveal a failing head gasket or bearing failure before it leaves the vehicle on the side of the road. Having a quality lab result will tell you of trace amounts of coolant or excessive bearing material. This can be debated for many more thousands of keystrokes but it is all just a waste of ascii just as more frequent oil changes are a waste of resources and $$ all while creating more waste products.

Fact over fiction.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

so what car do you drive 8000mi on amsoil? what did your UOA tell you? it's all good?


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

This is not a commerical for a specific brand of oil and filters, it's just what I have used for 20 years) Both my 1.8T's get 7,500-8,000 mile changes with Amsoil European spec oil & their nano filters (a couple Mann filters for comparison). This is based on results for them indicating that with the Amsoil filters the oil could go 10,000 miles and with the Mann filters 8,000 miles. Yes I am quite aware that the service interval for these vehicles is listed as 5,000 miles / 8,000km but since they are well out of warranty thus any problem is my problem anyway. How does this relate to the 10,000 mile drain? Prior to my purchasing them each vehicle was service by the book with dealer supplier oil & filters almost exclusivly. Both these engines still perform fine, provide 25-28mpg in mixed driving and burn but ounces of oil between changes. This is a result of following the manufacturers service schedule. Flash forward 10 years and here we are with better quality everything available and the oil change schedule is now doubled, not so hard to believe actually. Of course let's not even consider that vehicles in Europe have been using these extended drain services nor that gee wiz that's also where our vehicles come from? I have complete confidence that the suggested service level is both in the best interest of the owner and the manufacturer. Owners don't want a vehicle that is in the shop all the time or needs a new engine after 100k miles and manufacturers don't want a reputation of making disposible cars (the names Yugo and the first round of Hyundai do come to mind). Look back to the 3,000 mile change days and see how many 1970's era vehicles were running around with 80-100k on the clock and ran just as they did when new, VERY few, most burned oil from day one and by the time they hit 100,000 miles it was time for a rebuild which is why most were traded in before then. Today we are driving machines that should be able to handle the Autobahn as part of their daily commute in a situation where the engines are seeing lower speeds and loads but perhaps higher average air temps. Vehicles built to a significantly higher level of quality using better everything is it so hard to believe they should be able to do it with less oil in the pan that is changed less often? If so then I need to get busy on that 8 track to iPod interface.


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## joe3292003 (Jan 25, 2010)

*5,000mi UOA*

Got my UOA back from the lab today. I filled up with Mobil 0w-40. What do you guys think?


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## Patman-TX (Jun 13, 2010)

I think you need to see what the next few bring as they noted the first one is always all over the place, You still may see some little bumps along the way due to various bits getting chewed up in the engine as things mate up but the next two will be very telling.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

Joe3292003- 

That UOA above for a new engine is very normal. 

A UOA is intended to tell you if the OIL is still serviceable and if you have some major mechanical issue or unusual contaminants. It can not tell you if one oil performs better in your engine than another oil and it is not intended for this purpose. Many enthusiats msitakenly try to use a UOA for the incorrect purpose. 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/i...ults&catid=40:articles-of-the-month&Itemid=71


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## ccmnova (Aug 23, 2009)

I have been using the Castrol 5w-40 in my 09 2.0t in between dealer changes - one more dealer change at 30K. I use Mobil 1 0w-40 in my 06 Mercedes c280 - which is their recommended oil. I'd like to use the Mobil 1 in the 2.0t as well since the 0w may help here in the cold winters. The Mobil 1 0w-40 is also VW approved - any comments on which of these two oils may be the better choice ?


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## salsawagen (Aug 22, 2010)

People here complain about VW's 10K interval, MINI has a 15K interval and their engines are only 1.6L.

BTW, My '04 Cooper had well over 150,000 miles when I traded it, no engine problems using their service interval. The transmission however, that's a different story... I did a Blackstone oil analysis after every oil change that basically proved MINI's claim that 15K intervals wouldn't harm the engine. (I didn't believe it at first either). Trust, buy verify!


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

salsawagen said:


> Trust, buy verify!


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

I did drain the factory fill oil before departing on a long 5000-mile family vacation trip (Wisconsin to the Pacific Northwest, and back). Here is the Blackstone report for the factory fill oil:










After adding Motul 8100 X-cess 5W40, I was sort of surprised that we did not have to add any oil at all during the entire trip -- I hope this tells me that we might have broken the engine in properly. During the 1400-mile break-in period, we kept the DSG exclusively in Sport mode to keep the RPMs up longer...but it was about 95% urban driving, so not much floggage out on the open road.

Now I'll see how Motul 8100 X-cess 5W40 fares...


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## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

Anyone find it odd that the 10K OCI was introduced when VW provided the "Maintenance Free" slogan as part of the 3 year warranty.


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## ccmnova (Aug 23, 2009)

piston said:


> Anyone find it odd that the 10K OCI was introduced when VW provided the "Maintenance Free" slogan as part of the 3 year warranty.


They would have had to do 3 more changes if at 5K - every penny counts I guess


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

piston said:


> Anyone find it odd that the 10K OCI was introduced when VW provided the "Maintenance Free" slogan as part of the 3 year warranty.


:thumbup:


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## MoleculeMan (Sep 26, 2009)

*10K Oil Change Interval*

Actually this is not true. I have a 2007 GTI and the maintenance schedule calls for a 10,000 mile OCI (after the first change at 5,000 miles) There was no free maintenance program when I bought the car 4 years ago.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

A $25. UOA test will tell you the proper OCI for a given oil. See Titan and Blackstone Labs for reputable UOA testing. With UOA you don't need to guess, you'll know if the oil should be changed sooner or if it's good for a longer OCI.


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## animaniac (May 26, 2005)

I don't see any reason why one can't run to the 10k interval when using high quality vw approved oil.

My engines run the 10k intervals for the passed 60k since i owned it and the engines running great.

Key thing is to allow the engine to fully warm up, this prevents alot of the water vapour from staying in the engine and forming acids with combustion by-products.


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## piston (Oct 17, 2008)

TechMeister said:


> A $25. UOA test will tell you the proper OCI for a given oil. See Titan and Blackstone Labs for reputable UOA testing. With UOA you don't need to guess, you'll know if the oil should be changed sooner or if it's good for a longer OCI.


With an FSI engine that eats oil, it's difficult to get an accurate UOA because you are feeding new oil into the engine periodically to keep the level from getting to low.
That's why when people post UOA test reports for FSI engines, I take it with a grain of salt.


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## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

piston said:


> With an FSI engine that eats oil, it's difficult to get an accurate UOA because you are feeding new oil into the engine periodically to keep the level from getting to low.
> That's why when people post UOA test reports for FSI engines, I take it with a grain of salt.


That would mean that you are effectively gradually changing the oil. A UOA won't tell you how long a single fill of oil lasts, but it will tell you what the state of the oil in the engine is, accounting for the added oil replacing the burned off oil.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

I recall when Mobil 1 came on the market some 30 years ago, the company touted a change interval of 25000 miles. I don't know of anyone who actually tried such an extended interval, and certainly no new car warranty back then would accommodate it. I've used synth oil since the early 80s but always kept to an OCI of about 7000 to 8000 miles regardless of Mobil's assurances.

Car engines have gotten better since then, and I'm sure synthetic oil formulations have also improved greatly. If a car company says 10000 miles is OK under their warranty terms and provides a list of oils that meet their applicable standards, then I'm inclined to give their position a good amount of weight.


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## gtimusings (Nov 12, 2005)

Regardless of what VW says, I will be doing 5k oil changes. 

Funny how we lost warranty coverage (time and miles), but got 3 free oil changes.

I would rather have the warranty, as I do my own oil changes anyway.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

With a UOA you don't need to guess or waste money on unnecessary oil changes.


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

TechMeister said:


> With a UOA you don't need to guess or waste money on unnecessary oil changes.


Something we can agree on!:beer:


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

10k is do-able, but in USA oil is much cheaper than Europe. We also have ****ty gas, that effects the TBN depletion and other factors that make 10k a bad idea. Just drain the oil at 5k and refill with any 5w-40, leaving the filter in place.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

No one needs to guess at the proper OCI. This is precisely what a UOA is intended for. For $25 you can know what the proper OCI is for your oil and application. Then you won't be dumping perfectly good oil when it has plenty of life left. Even with relatively cheap oil in the U.S. it's still a waste to change oil at 5K if it's good to 10K+.


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## AudiSportA4 (Mar 3, 2002)

Really? What does a UOA tell you about deposits? What does it tell you about particles larger than a UOA can detect? Has a UOA even detected a cam follower failure in a FSI?

I can change my oil out and recycle the oil stuff for the cost of a UOA, or less. Then, I have a guaranteed result. Fresh oil also means fresh friction modifiers to smooth out the engine and pour-point depressants, useful in the middle of winter. If you want to cold start your turbo in Feb at -10f on thick 5w-40 that already has 9k on it...feel free. Those two components of oil degrade rapidly in service.

When I do a UOA, it's to ascertain how well an oil work in a lot of parameters, not simply how long it can be run...(which requires a more expensive TBN test and even a more expensive TAN test)

Remember folks, the manual isn't written with the owner's best interest in mind. It's made-up by marketing and accounting people with their interest in mind. I can't really think of anyone who did well with the 10k recommendation from the Audi 1.8t. The low-grade fuels in the USA react differently with the lubes than the fuel in Europe. We also tend to take short trips, where the oil does not get fully heated enough to burn off condensation and excess fuel. Old oil + water mixed and warmed = yuck. 10k can mean 3000 short trips! No grade of oil can substitute for physically dumping that crap out.

I change seasonally and use different viscs. 5w-40 is fine for summer and to deal with the fuel dillution a 10k run produces. I use thinner oil in winter. 2x a year is a minimum, imo, 3 or 4 times is sometimes necessary. Usually, I say to people to decide how often you want to change oil and pick one that lets you go how many miles you anticipate in that time. However, with a turbo, synth oil and short changes are a requirement.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

I don't believe it's accurate to say a UOA will tell you what your OCI should be. But assuming you're using appropriate oil, it can indirectly _suggest _whether you should adjust your interval because you've gone too long or maybe the oil still had significant usable life in it.


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