# CPS 16730 0346 Codes before and after t-belt change



## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

I posted this Sunday Night in the wrong forum
I was getting a code for the CPS in bank (2) and no others. I replaced it and was able to clear the code. After a bit of road testing I am now getting
17555 P1347 Camshaft Speed Sensor Bank 2 G163 - G28 Incorrect Correlation.
The code did not come up before the CPS was replaced. Would the other CPS code have masked the code?
I am reading that it could be the timing belt at this point. Does anyone have any suggestions? I have to get this thing reliable by tomorrow evening, I am driving the car out to the new owner.
The car is an 01 Audi A4 Quattro 100k miles.







UPDATE FROM MONDAY NIGHT








I did the timing belt today (big job, the first time).
I was able to get rid of the 17755 code but now the original code of 16730 0346 has reappeared. I moved the known good sensor (bank 1) to bank 2 and placed the new sensor into bank 1. The issue did not follow the CPS.
I am now back to thinking the cam in bank (2) skipped a tooth as the belt I replaced was slightly stretched, not by much though.
I will have to pull the covers off again to check the timing of bank 2.
I need to know for sure where the marks are located on the cam sprockets if anyone can help out.
Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: CPS 16730 0346 Codes before and after t-belt change (citigti)*

Does the car start and run?
Did P1347 come up before the t-belt job?
Was the engine running when you scanned it?
I'm guessing you didn't use the crank-pin & locking bar... The holes in the oval/diamond shaped cam sprocket cover flange thingies should line up perfectly at TDC, with, I think, the larger holes pointing inwards (not 100% sure about that last part).
I think there's a fairly recent DIY somewhere in this forum.


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

Sorry... the car does start and run and seems to run well. 
1347 came up after the initial CPS install and test drives. I pulled the codes with the car running and not running. I used the markings on the cam gears and the balancer to very. 
I used the write up from audizine and I pulled another from fixya. I want to say the holes were in the right position, according to the write up. This is assuming the car had not slipped a tooth prior. 
I just have to make sure if the t-belt is right or wrong. I am more than willing to redo the job, at this point if I have to. 
Thanks,


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*

Sorry, I misread your original post, and got the two codes mixed up.
I assume you cleared P0346 and it came back? If so, I'd first double-check the sensor is installed correctly, and check the wiring for continuity/short circuits, and make sure the reference voltage is correct (5V? I guess you'll have to probe the bank 1 sensor if you don't have a manual or if nobody chimes in with the specs). If that checks out, I think you can log sensor pulses with your VAG-COM. If it is sending & receiving pulses properly, I guess there has to be a timing problem, or perhaps the cam chain tensioner has gone bye-bye. If the valve timing was already off before you replaced the belt, I think the only guaranteed way to check it is to pull off the valve cover and check the marks on the camshafts and caps.


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

,
OK here is where I am today. I tore the front end off again to access everything. I borrowed the cam gear alignment tool and as I suspected the cams are inline perfectly. (I used a laser level last night to line them up. 
Anyhow, I used the tool, and checked everything out. I also went to Vortex Automotive in Elk Grove (Indy shop) and Bill there explained a bit to me about the issue.
He also said I would need to go through the steps you mentioned now. I have the valve cover off and I am counting links (17) between the marks if I remember correctly, with the caps at 12 o-clock. 
Thanks a bunch for the information. 
I got to get this thing ready to go, the new owner is hoping to meet the car in Las Vegas by Thursday.
Issac


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*

Shouldn't it be 14 links between marks (i.e. not including the marked links)? I'm going by memory here, so don't take that as gospel...


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

,
I did some other things last night to rule out ECM and wiring (swapped CPS plugs at the bulkhead and code followed/stayed with bank 2).
So today I pulled the valve cover again to make sure the little notches of the cam shaft lined up with the arrows with the engine balancer at TDC. I am definitely a tooth off on the exhaust cam.
As for the the teeth you are right it is 14 from inside tooth to inside tooth and 16 from outside to outside (tomato tomatoe LOL) looks like I fat fingered in the 17 oops!
So, I am now going to try to figure out how to get the cam out and rotate it forward (1) tooth. Man the new owner has no idea what it has taken to get the car going right








Thanks a ton to you too!
Issac


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*

Glad to help. Tough luck though that it's the exhaust cam that's off. I hope you didn't already put the front of the car back together...








Good on you for not just foisting it on the buyer. You will definitely have earned some







when it's all done.


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

Yeah.. I put it back together last night! 
I passed on the beer but I ate the hell out of some pizza! 
I found the tool to compress the cam chain tensioner but the hole ate the screw so I can't compress the piston. 
Any suggestions on getting the cam out? 
Thanks!


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*








Ugh... I'm guessing you mean the screw sheared off in the hole, and you can't extract it? Maybe you could try bending up a strip of sheet metal and drill three holes in it: one in the middle that you put what's left of the busted bolt through to hold the compression tool in place, and one at either end that lines up with the nearest cap screw holes, which you can tighten (carefully!) to compress the tool (obviously the caps would have to come off first). Does that make sense? If one of those cap screws breaks though, you're really screwed (no pun indended)...
I guess the other option would be to try to lift up the camshafts and tensioner all in one go. I honestly can't picture how well (or badly) that might turn out though...

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

I felt screwed last night! LOL
It looks like the hole actually killed the bolt. The bolt is out..... I just need to go and get a new screw. 
Hopefully, I'll be able to locate another screw. I'm going to post pictures of what I made for a tool last night. It would have worked but the bolt was too short. 
Thanks!


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *citigti* »_The bolt is out..... I just need to go and get a new screw.

Glad you got it out. I'm guessing you need a metric screw now though... I don't know about Cali, but the only reliable place to find metric hardware around here is Grainger.


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (citigti)*

If one cam is off a tooth, then put the engine at TDC. Put the crank pin in. The exhaust cam notch should align with the arrow on the bearing cap.
Compress the cam chain tensioner, it is metric. Remove all of the bearing caps on the intake cam, including the two end caps. Remove the bolts for the cam chain tensioner. This should create enough room to wiggle the intake cam out of the chain and rotate it one tooth.


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

Thanks  and Tryin2vw.
I ended up going to Fastenal and got a 
I've got a shipment of new 3366 tools coming in a couple of days. I didn't want to be in this position again so I bought (3) of them, 2 for me and 1 to replace the tool I borrowed and thrashed








Anyway,
I'll give the wriggle method a shot before tearing into the nose again. The new owner ended up flying to CA and liked my 540m-sport more and bought that instead. So, now I have a bit of time to get this straightened out. 
Thanks to all of you and the great DIY write-ups. 
Issac


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *citigti* »_Thanks  and Tryin2vw.

You're welcome.

_Quote, originally posted by *citigti* »_I didn't want to be in this position again so I bought (3) of them, 2 for me and 1 to replace the tool I borrowed and thrashed









Go slow, and be careful not to over-tighten.

_Quote, originally posted by *citigti* »_I'll give the wriggle method a shot before tearing into the nose again.

I think that only works if the intake cam is one tooth off on the cam chain. If the exhaust timing is off, I think there's no alternative but to take the timing belt off again. But I suppose you have it down to a fine art by now though...









_Quote, originally posted by *citigti* »_The new owner ended up flying to CA and liked my 540m-sport more and bought that instead.

Who wouldn't? Bit of a no-brainer, if you ask me...


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

LOL on the no-brainer! 
2 very different cars for sure. 
The tools are here so I'm gonna give it a go. 
As for the fine art... I think I can probably do a timing belt change now in about 2 hours... if I take my time. LOL


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

Hey ,
I have gotten to this point several times and keep killing myself to understand what this guy is referring too. 
http://audiforums.com/forum/sh...23521
(The last post)
he says to crank the engine to get the cams in a position to where the tensioner can be compressed enough. 
The bentley doesn't mention that...but it also assumes the head is removed before this action. 
it's killing me because I know I have to rotate it only (1) tooth forward. 
What I do know for sure though is the PO of the car had some work done. I found that the cam shaft caps were re-installed in the wrong order on both the intake and exhaust cams. 
I did talk to my VW mechanic and he said if I bring it ready to go he will set it for me for $180 and I can button it up in the shop. 
I'm not ready to throw in the towel, but $180 does sound tempting. LOL


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *citigti* »_he says to crank the engine to get the cams in a position to where the tensioner can be compressed enough.

I'm guessing he didn't put it at TDC first...

_Quote, originally posted by *citigti* »_What I do know for sure though is the PO of the car had some work done. I found that the cam shaft caps were re-installed in the wrong order on both the intake and exhaust cams.

By "in the wrong order" do you mean they were not all in the right place? I don't know what happens when you do that, but it can't be good. If they were just torqued down in the wrong sequence, it guess would mess up the torque pattern, so you would probably have a little uneven wear on the camshaft, but not much else.


_Modified by  at 3:36 AM 4/19/2010_


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

maybe he didn't put it at TDC. I know in the Bentley it is written when removing the cams, it should not be at TDC. 
As in wrong order, the manual showed #4 closest to the cam shaft tensioner and #2 closet to the CPS on both the intake and exhaust cams. 
I put them back in the correct place, they were reversed. I looked them over closely and I do not see any major visible differences. Maybe they are marked for tightening order and make them easily identifiable. hmmm dunno.
I'm gonna jump back in there later this week. I can't imagine how well this thing will run when its set up correctly. 
I've run (2) full tanks of gas through it and have averaged 410 miles per tank. Just about 28mpg's. 
Thanks !


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: (citigti)*

Hmmm. Well, if a valve is open (and I don't see how they can ever all be closed on a V6), as soon as there is any slack in the chain, it will try to close itself by turning the camshaft, stressing the tensioner if there's no opposing valve. If you have the cam locking bar though, that will take up the stress instead, and I think you should be able to compress the tensioner at any crank position. I would still do it at TDC so you can confirm the timing is correct, but if Bentley say differently, go with that. They usually get their information spot on. You need to turn the crank two full turns after putting it all back together anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter if it's not at TDC to begin with.


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

Hey thanks for all the help. between the last messages and now I was able to get the car to only misfire and the open code had gone away. 

Tryin' you were right. I was able to get the cam out and adjusted a tooth by removing the caps and end cap and loosening the cam tensioner. I did it the REAL hard way though, because I thought the CCT was screwed under the cam gear's metal cover also.... so I pulled the front of the car off (too much work!!) 

So, where I am now is the cam notches line up with the arrows, Now I have a "Short to ground G28 - G163" error code. I am going to play with the CPS's again then if I can't get it i'm going to have to give in and take it to my mechanic. He said he'd help with the technical and let me do the "labor" for a reduced rate. 

Thanks all!


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

Start by checking the wiring. G28 is the crank sensor and G163 is one of the cam sensors (driver's side ?). If the ECU doesn't know where the engine is, it doesn't know when to shoot sparks & gas around. I really don't know what it does when the sensors are malfunctioning or not properly connected, if it guesses, goes on strike, or does something else entirely, but yeah, it would definitely misfire. I think it gets ignition timing from the crank sensor, and injection timing from the cam sensor. I'm not sure about that though -- maybe someone with a service manual can help out...


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

*Getting Better*

, 
I read over the bentley again and it says to idle the car for a few minutes after to let the ECU "adapt" to the new changes. 

The last piece is check the CPS between G28 and G163 (you are right it is the drivers side). I'm going to tackle that later today. 

For real though, you guys have been a great help. 

I am almost ready to start working on my mk1 GTI again.


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## citigti (Jun 24, 2008)

All good now. It turns out the magnetic piece in the CPS fell off during installation. I happened to find it in my magnetic screw/bolt holder.


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