# Cam Follower out of Warranty Failure - TSB billable labor hour question



## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

Hey Guys, 
I am not looking to get too deep into it until the issue is resolved but I'm looking to find out if anyone has access to see what VW says are the "billable" hours if a HPFP follower dies and the pump/intake cam need replacement. 
I have found many many parts lists but cannot find anything about "labor hours". 
The TSB data I have found points to TSB 2013147/8, but I'm trying to be educated in regards to the labor involved. I "heard" a number 7.1 hours thrown out, but want to see if that is an all inclusive figure. 
TIA everyone. 
Parts list that I was told they would replace
06F-109-101-B CAMSHAFT
06F-109-217-A TENSIONER
06F-109-088-J ADJUSTER
06D-109-281-D SCREW
06F-127-025-J FUEL PUMP
06D-109-309-C CAM FOLLOW
06F-127-213-C UNION
06F-198-088-D REPSET
060-103-121-B GASKET
D-000-600-A2 SEALANT
Another item I have not been able to google much on is the fuel pump. Two numers were on the sheet, one was crossed off
06F-127-025-J AND 06F-127-025-K (K was crossed off, was this a prior revision of the fuel pump)
TIA everyone. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and PSA : I have 65k, dealer serviced, complete failure with no CEL even after full detonation of pump. Please check your followers people..


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## ZoomBy (Jan 3, 2005)

*FV-QR*

is there a diy on checking yoru follower? how difficult is it to replace? im at just under 60k


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## [email protected] (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (ZoomBy)*

vw pays about 8 hours warranty, cash work would be 10-12 hours


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## ZoomBy (Jan 3, 2005)

*FV-QR*

just did some quick searching...if im using stock fuel pump on a stock engine do i have to worry about replacing?
is thgis prob with aftermarket pumps only?


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## [email protected] (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (ZoomBy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ZoomBy* »_just did some quick searching...if im using stock fuel pump on a stock engine do i have to worry about replacing?
is thgis prob with aftermarket pumps only?

it could happen to any fuel pump, it is not a huge problem it just happens from time to time, if you check it everyonce in awhile you can just swap out the follower before any damage has happened
we see cars over 100k miles that have no issues


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (ZoomBy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ZoomBy* »_just did some quick searching...if im using stock fuel pump on a stock engine do i have to worry about replacing?
is thgis prob with aftermarket pumps only?

I'd say check your follower at least every 20k if not more frequently. My fuel pump was stock and again dealer oil changes every 5k.. I also have the hardened B cam, so I dunno WTF happened but I guess its "just my luck" if you will. and I'm 6,000 miles out of warranty so I'm currently dealing with it. 
and JC, since you work with a dealer, perhaps you can explain. Why, as a cash job, would I then be paying 4 hours more labor @ ~$100/hr.. 
I know the actual job takes about 4-5 hours, TSB billable is 8 as stated (doubled), and cash is 12!!!! (triple man hours or ~ $250+ an hour) (I was quoted $1,200-1,300 for labor)










_Modified by ShadowGLI at 10:46 AM 8-14-2009_


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## [email protected] (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (ShadowGLI)*

their is no way anyone is doing this job in 4-5 hours, tech's take longer than that 8 hours warranty pays to do it, removing the timing belt pays about 4-5 hours in itself and you haven't even touched the cams yet. Cleaning the 1 part cam cap take prob an hour itself since it has a .001" clearance you can't just hit it with a scuff pad because you don't want to take material off of it, you have to pick the old pressed sealer out of the groove in it and then clean it up
it physically takes a tech 10-12 hours if everything goes right


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

Well I'm just going off what my friends that work for VW and Audi have told me.. Everything outside the cam itself takes about 2 hours to remove and reinstall. I just couldn't imagine another 10-11 hours for that one cam.


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## ZoomBy (Jan 3, 2005)

*FV-QR*

i remember hearing that certain model fuel pumps have a banjo style connector and others have a diff type (cant remember the name) which one is the harder one to deal with? how can i tell which one mine is?


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## [email protected] (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_Well I'm just going off what my friends that work for VW and Audi have told me.. Everything outside the cam itself takes about 2 hours to remove and reinstall. I just couldn't imagine another 10-11 hours for that one cam.

what is prob being done is the cam cap is being removed with out taking the tension off the timing belt so the drivers side of the exhaust cam lifts up out of the head and then on reinstallation they are using the cam cap to pull the camshaft down and add tension to the timing belt again, the problem with this is it puts extra load on parts that don't need it and you now need to reuse the cam seals and cam cap, their is a difference between doing it correct and doing it the quick way.
Just remember if those seals leak you need to redo the job again and this time you have no choice but to do it the correct way


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## [email protected] (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (ZoomBy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ZoomBy* »_ i remember hearing that certain model fuel pumps have a banjo style connector and others have a diff type (cant remember the name) which one is the harder one to deal with? how can i tell which one mine is?

early style has the banjo bolt on the bottom of the hpfp, neither one is hard to remove you just need different tools for each style


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
early style has the banjo bolt on the bottom of the hpfp, neither one is hard to remove you just need different tools for each style

That depends on your definition of "hard to remove". For a shadetree mechanic (such as myself) it's a pain in the a** because it's difficult to reach and you can't get much tool swing space.
I also take issue with your contention that the failure of the pump/cam shaft is not a big deal. It's a big deal when it happens and VW doesn't want to cover it under warranty, because that's a $2000 repair bill. If you're not the type to drop thousands of dollars on mods for your car (me, for example) this is a big deal.


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## [email protected] (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (jmj)*

maybe my wording was bad, a failure is a big deal and costs extensive money and time. What i ment is that it is not a problem with every car it only happens to a car here and their, the reason you see it more on vortex is because everyone here cares about their car and bothers to check and maintain it. I was refering to it not being a big deal to check the cam follower every once in awhile and just maintain a healthly follower so you never have to worry about the camshaft itself


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_maybe my wording was bad, a failure is a big deal and costs extensive money and time. What i ment is that it is not a problem with every car it only happens to a car here and their, the reason you see it more on vortex is because everyone here cares about their car and bothers to check and maintain it. I was refering to it not being a big deal to check the cam follower every once in awhile and just maintain a healthly follower so you never have to worry about the camshaft itself

I'd say in a year or two it will then be a big deal... It just showed up early on my car as I drive 25k+ a year.. 
and yeah, that banjo bolt wasn't a big deal, get a torx socket set and a rachet, once you get 1/4 turn its loose and you can remove by hand... it's tricky, but not that terrible.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_
and JC, since you work with a dealer, perhaps you can explain. Why, as a cash job, would I then be paying 4 hours more labor @ ~$100/hr.. 

Warranty book times are wholesale, like with anything there is markup to retail which is a "cash" job at a dealership. Most have a markup of 1.5X warranty or there abouts depending on the job and how horrible the warranty time is. Its no different then your company paying you 20 bucks an hour but billing the customer 100, or the grocery store buying a 2liter of coke for a dollar and selling it for 2 bucks. Labor has a markup.


_Quote »_
I know the actual job takes about 4-5 hours, TSB billable is 8 as stated (doubled), and cash is 12!!!! (triple man hours or ~ $250+ an hour) (I was quoted $1,200-1,300 for labor)










As JC stated that job does not take 4-5 hours, there are plenty of jobs that can be done quickly and tricks learned to speed them up this is not one of of them. Especially with the car that is needed with things like cleaning the cam cap that he listed. If you have the one piece timing belt cove that can take a few hours to deal with alone..
Even if a tech can do it in 4-5 hours that means they have done a lot and lost time on a lot along the way training themselves to do a better job quicker and their reward is that extra time. 
You don't get less pay and more work every time you advance at your job do you?


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

I guess I'm just a little pissy that I've been in the dealer 3 times in a year and a half to sell a car for them(2 new, one used), I've serviced my car there since 5k, I'm just out of warranty and I'm looking at a major failure on a known issue that the dealer will not acknowledge unless you have a CEL to warrant a "look" yet my fuel pump completely failed and I still didn't have a CEL until I parked the car and restarted it 4 hours later. 
and this didn't happen overnight.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_I guess I'm just a little pissy that I've been in the dealer 3 times in a year and a half to sell a car for them(2 new, one used), I've serviced my car there since 5k, I'm just out of warranty and I'm looking at a major failure on a known issue that the dealer will not acknowledge unless you have a CEL to warrant a "look" yet my fuel pump completely failed and I still didn't have a CEL until I parked the car and restarted it 4 hours later. 
and this didn't happen overnight. 


your Beef is with VW not with the dealer since they cannot do anything about it without codes being thrown to warrant the moving forward with a warranty claim unfortunately. Certain conditions must be met for them to start diagnosing something and being able to submit it for warranty. 
The problem is what VW requires of the dealer not how the dealer handled it.


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

I do understand that portion of it. Again, I wasn't looking to get too deep into the situation until it was resolved. But I was looking to get some clarification from some people who might know as to what the expected labor involved would be and to confirm that accepting such a quote was reasonable. 
I'm still trying to work with VW a bit to see if they will be of any assistance regarding the labor, but it's just poor timing in my life as I've had already had $~2,500 in life expenses in the last 2 months and I really don't have another $1,000+, but I need a car and don't want to be throwing unnecessary money away. 
I have a call out to my regional claims person for VWoA, but I wanna make sure I'm aware of whats really going on before I get into discussions with them. 
and I do appreciate everyones input. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NJGTI (Nov 9, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

not to highjack your thread but I recently tried to get the pump out following jc's tutorial and once i let the pressure out the bleeder valve I could not unscrew it and didn't want to force it too much. 
I only had an adjustable wrench since a 13mm socket would not sit deep enough on the bleeder valve to get a good grip on it. Any trick to this?


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## ZoomBy (Jan 3, 2005)

any one have any pics of the banjo bolt? also is there any potential harm that i can cause unknowingly? by like not releasing the pressure enough or something? I really want to check this, but Im going to do it myself


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## iGen3 (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: (ShadowGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShadowGLI* »_I do understand that portion of it. Again, I wasn't looking to get too deep into the situation until it was resolved. But I was looking to get some clarification from some people who might know as to what the expected labor involved would be and to confirm that accepting such a quote was reasonable. 
I'm still trying to work with VW a bit to see if they will be of any assistance regarding the labor, but it's just poor timing in my life as I've had already had $~2,500 in life expenses in the last 2 months and I really don't have another $1,000+, but I need a car and don't want to be throwing unnecessary money away. 
I have a call out to my regional claims person for VWoA, but I wanna make sure I'm aware of whats really going on before I get into discussions with them. 
and I do appreciate everyones input. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

you'll note in this thread what VOA coughed up for me at 85k miles. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1 
and note to I had them do the timing belt (and ALL the associated parts) for $260 additional labor (it was all off anyway) plus parts I had already bought (from same dealer) to do it myself....


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (ZoomBy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ZoomBy* »_any one have any pics of the banjo bolt? also is there any potential harm that i can cause unknowingly? by like not releasing the pressure enough or something? I really want to check this, but Im going to do it myself

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3750088
there are 2 lines that come out the bottom of the HPFP. the fuel line on the passenger side of the HPFP is either a rubber line with a squeeze clamp or a metal fuel line held on with the infamous triple square. The best thing to do if you have this setup is use a open end wrench to slide over the triple square. Then get some black electrical tape and tape the wrench to the triple square shaft. The makes it eaiser to hold onto the socket/wrench and is eaiser to get good leverage on the bolt head. 
if you have the rubber line on the passenger side then simply leave it attached on both ends. There is enough slack that with the other line disconnected you can pull the pump out with the fuel hose attached. The style clamps used can be a pain to work with http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (NJGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NJGTI* »_not to highjack your thread but I recently tried to get the pump out following jc's tutorial and once i let the pressure out the bleeder valve I could not unscrew it and didn't want to force it too much. 
I only had an adjustable wrench since a 13mm socket would not sit deep enough on the bleeder valve to get a good grip on it. Any trick to this?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3750088


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## ZoomBy (Jan 3, 2005)

*FV-QR*

thanks for the help, i'll check it out tomorrow morning and see what im working with...im pretty sure its gonna be the banjo though


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_maybe my wording was bad, a failure is a big deal and costs extensive money and time. What i ment is that it is not a problem with every car it only happens to a car here and their, the reason you see it more on vortex is because everyone here cares about their car and bothers to check and maintain it. I was refering to it not being a big deal to check the cam follower every once in awhile and just maintain a healthly follower so you never have to worry about the camshaft itself


I agree with this. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Warranty book times are wholesale, like with anything there is markup to retail which is a "cash" job at a dealership. Most have a markup of 1.5X warranty or there abouts depending on the job and how horrible the warranty time is. Its no different then your company paying you 20 bucks an hour but billing the customer 100, or the grocery store buying a 2liter of coke for a dollar and selling it for 2 bucks. Labor has a markup.


The thing about a cash paying customer is that they can't play the same game they do with warranty repairs. On warrenty repairs they tend to replace any old **** and when that doesn't fix it they replace something else then say that you had 2 issues causing that one problem. They won't be doing that **** with any reasonably informed out-of-pocket customer. They are now liable for charging a customer for repairs they did not need.


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## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (blackvento36)*

bumping this thread - OP, did you end up getting anything taken care of for you? 
I just had this happen to me, everything failed...but thankfully I was still under warranty (43k miles). When I was talking to the service rep at the dealership, he was telling me about another person just like you - had a stock car w/ 70k miles on it - he even felt bad for the guy and tried calling VWoA, but they wouldn't budge. 
I know it won't help one bit, but I'll be writing a letter to VW and dropping it off at their Herndon headquarters about this.


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## drankin69 (Aug 15, 2006)

*What about the metal in the engine?*

So my Cam Follower, Camshaft and fuel pump just went at 63k and the dealer is doing the work as I write this. My only issue is where all the little metal filings go as these parts are wearing out. My Follower was completely gone on the end, the Camshaft lobe is scored badly and the spring holder on the end of the fuel pump plunger is gone too. Lots O' Metal flowing in the oil system. Any info would be helpful. Thanks!!


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## eddiefury (Aug 5, 2007)

https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=235507629582&ref=ts

i wonder when VW/Audi will step up and admit this fault?? 

i'm checking mine every 10K! Just got an APR HPFP, so might check in 5K to see what's going on in there...


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## Das Chamorro (Feb 21, 2011)

is there a way I will know if I have a replacement follower upon inspecting it? I thought i saw a pic of a bad one and a newer one in here or Passatworld...but dang if I can't find it now.


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