# 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo



## 13LG60 (Dec 11, 2001)

What CR ratio would you guys consider low enough to get to this powergoal?
Will 8,5:1 be low enough?


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

9:1 with very good standalone tuning


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (1,3LG60)*

Well prev peep i've seen ran estimated 8.1:1 to 7.5:1 if i can recall...and around 27-30psi


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## Geoff Rood (Apr 30, 2001)

I'm going to say 7-8 to 1 if you want that much power out of just 2 liters. Anything higher than that and you'll need something crazy like methanol injection to keep the intake temperatures and knock in check.


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (Geoff Rood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Geoff Rood* »_I'm going to say 7-8 to 1 if you want that much power out of just 2 liters. Anything higher than that and you'll need something crazy like methanol injection to keep the intake temperatures and knock in check.

this may be the worst piece of advice ive heard! do some research!


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## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: (turbodub)*

personaly I think alot of people that ask a question like this wont ever make this kind of hp but even so there are just too many variables with what may or may not work in a certain application for a certain hp level........in short if your serious about making hp of these levels there are other questions you could ask that would with some simple math get you a very close estimated answer to the question you asked


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## Geoff Rood (Apr 30, 2001)

In response to Turbodub's post about "doing some research" i'll be fair here. Overall it depends entirely on how you want to go about attaining 600 horsepower. If you want to use gasoline, the highest street legal gasoline available today being 94ish octane, you'll need a lower compression engine with some sort of hyper efficient intake charge cooling system. You CAN make 600 crankshaft horsepower with higher compression levels if you dedicate yourself to a race fuel only motor. The 110+ octane available for racing engines will allow higher compression ratio's with the 30 odd psi that's required to get enough air into the motor to produce that much power.
At the request of a fellow vortexer here I did a little research and discovered the Dahlback car, estimated in the 900hp range on an inline five cylinder 2.1L motor, runs 9:1 compression at an astounding 39psi with the ability to push the limit to 48psi.
Maybe i should also note that the Peugeot 206 WRC car has a compression ratio of 8.5:1 and makes 300 horsepower. Does that fact shed any light onto my previous comments?
What about this tidbit about the 4G63 motor used in Lancer Evo's from 92-01: "Mitsubishi chose to use a relatively high compression ratio, for a turbocharged engine, 8.8:1, and has therefore limited the maximum boost pressure allowed to a value lower than 1.5 bar in order to avoid detonation. "
In lieu of these discoveries, perhaps I should elaborate on my previous post that 7-8 : 1 compression would be a starting point for a car to be run on 94 octane and the higher boost levels to reach the 600 horsepower mark.


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: (Geoff Rood)*

You all have good points...but please posts some of your own info if you're gonna say something is "wrong." If I'm wrong, please explain.
Back on topic...no need to look anywhere else...one of the guys in here had almost 500hp 2.0L 16v Turbo with 7.5:1 ish compression and like ~27 psi with a T3/T04 and stand alone. On the other hand, you can also tune 8.1:1 compression to do the same...cuz I've seen some badass numbers without going too low. If you go high compression with high boost, you may be running some race gas...and rev up to 10,000rpm for 500+hp (a Honda setup I've seen).


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## 13LG60 (Dec 11, 2001)

*Re: (PADILLA)*

Forgot to say pump gas only (93 octane) and revlimit around 7500 rpm


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (1,3LG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1,3LG60* »_Forgot to say pump gas only (93 octane) and revlimit around 7500 rpm

you probably wont be able to get that on pump. sorry that i didnt elaborate earlier why you dont really need low compression. but just because you have high compression doesnt mean you cant run higher boost. youre propably better off running less timing than lower compression, sure you can up the psi numbers you ran so you can tell all youre friends you ran 30psi. but thats not really the point. again this is my opinion and from m experience. yes i have actual experience, the lowest compression i would say to go is, 9:1. go lower if you want its youre setup. lets face it our motors do not make any power compared to the hondas and others. by lowering the compression is gonna just make less. but with the proper tune and gas higher compression will make more power. and dont compare that dalback car to anything, that car went from having 1200hp, to 500hp, then 900hp, running 150mph, etc....


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: (turbodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbodub* »_
you probably wont be able to get that on pump. sorry that i didnt elaborate earlier why you dont really need low compression. but just because you have high compression doesnt mean you cant run higher boost. youre propably better off running less timing than lower compression, sure you can up the psi numbers you ran so you can tell all youre friends you ran 30psi. but thats not really the point. again this is my opinion and from m experience. yes i have actual experience, the lowest compression i would say to go is, 9:1. go lower if you want its youre setup. lets face it our motors do not make any power compared to the hondas and others. by lowering the compression is gonna just make less. but with the proper tune and gas higher compression will make more power. and dont compare that dalback car to anything, that car went from having 1200hp, to 500hp, then 900hp, running 150mph, etc.... 


Not trying to disprove u or anything...you're right that ideally, 9:1 compression would be best...but 9:1 and playing with timing would actually yield less hp than just upping the boost and lowering compression...because its harder to tune. Higher compression will will allow quicker spool and torque and low rev (theoretically)...but the car would be jsut as driveable with 8:1:1. I believe the ABF already have the "hotter" intake cam? The OP should probably port&polish his head, and a 3" dp...as I hear bigger downpipe+exhaust can unleashed somewhere around 80hp that was restricted. And the most important thing is a big turbo.
He can probably make close, if not 500hp on 93 with the following...
-8:1 compression
-Biggest t3/t04 or similar size turbo he can get
-60lb injectors
-port & polished head
-higher flow valves
-wilder cam
-3" dp+exhaust
-25+psi
-Stand alone
Bottom line is...I don't guarentee the setup works...but I think its a challenge...instead of backing off...it doesn't look impossible. And add some meth or water injection if pump gas is your obstacle http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I forgot if the guy that made almost 500hp in his 16vT ran pump gas...I think he did...someone confirm me on that....


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

since you woild be runnig stans alone(i hope). how would it be harder to tune??? and 60 lb injectors aint enough.


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: (turbodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbodub* »_since you woild be runnig stans alone(i hope). how would it be harder to tune??? and 60 lb injectors aint enough.

On pump gas...stand alone can't do miracles like that...even with standalone, u will still need race gas if ur running such compression without pulling so much timing you're actually making less power per lb of boost...all it does is let you tune better at the limit and compensate for changes quicker or in real time w/out waiting for a chip...basically, it will be harder to tune out preignition and other problems. Its harder to calibrate the standalone...and u may even end up pulling way too much timing at boost.
as for the injectors...im just throwing out some numbers...whatever size is best once u start tuning on the wideband http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 91gl (Aug 11, 2004)

*Re: (GoKart_16v)*

from what i see the guy is from europe, so he has a pretty nice range of gas octanes to work with. there is no such thing as 93 over there being regular is 95. bp now has ultimate 102, so you have quite the array to play around with.


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## 13LG60 (Dec 11, 2001)

*Re: (91gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *91gl* »_from what i see the guy is from europe, so he has a pretty nice range of gas octanes to work with. there is no such thing as 93 over there being regular is 95. bp now has ultimate 102, so you have quite the array to play around with.

98 on the pump here=93 in the US. Shell sell 99 octane though, but it is not available everywhere
Haltech E6X will be used to controll spark and fuel, cams will be custom from KM-Cams and the head will be ported


_Modified by 1,3LG60 at 11:15 AM 12-19-2006_


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (1,3LG60)*

My 2 cents....spend alot of time with the head work and cam profiles...power is in head flow and proper cams port velocities and the like. A nice ball bearing turbo is also a good idea. Also go for a race style eaqual length turbo manifold. Every little bit helps
The idea is to make the most hp with the least amount of boost.
Happy tuning.


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## Geoff Rood (Apr 30, 2001)

my suggestion is start with a more realistic and modest power goal. A 600hp ABF is a little far fetched unless you have a near unlimited budget. 600hp is going to thrash motors and transmissions at the rapid rate. I say shoot for 300-350 first, and do it right, building up the bottom end as well. At the very least get H-beam rods.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (1,3LG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1,3LG60* »_What CR ratio would you guys consider low enough to get to this powergoal?
Will 8,5:1 be low enough?

Frode, Yes, 8.5 is my favorite C/R, basically no difference in throttle response from 9:1 with some added safety. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
Frode, Yes, 8.5 is my favorite C/R, basically no difference in throttle response from 9:1 with some added safety. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

added safety my a$$. do you wear 2 condoms?? hahahahaha
and paul when you gonna get this heavy ass light out my car?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (turbodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbodub* »_
added safety my a$$. do you wear 2 condoms?? hahahahaha
and paul when you gonna get this heavy ass light out my car?









my A2 got rear ended then i broke the subframe, got no wheels right now


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
my A2 got rear ended then i broke the subframe, got no wheels right now









wanna buy a coupe?? haha you need a subframe?


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## 801pete (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
Frode, Yes, 8.5 is my favorite C/R, basically no difference in throttle response from 9:1 with some added safety. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I hate low compression motors. Part of it i think is the high altitude making them run like dogs out of boost, and the other part is that with the 91 octane you can't run tha tmuch boost anyways. 
We build em 9.5 -> 10.5:1 around here and then forget about running over 15psi on pump gas.


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## bdcoombs (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (801pete)*

\
_Quote, originally posted by *801pete* »_
I hate low compression motors. Part of it i think is the high altitude making them run like dogs out of boost, and the other part is that with the 91 octane you can't run tha tmuch boost anyways. 
We build em 9.5 -> 10.5:1 around here and then forget about running over 15psi on pump gas.









thats no fun under 15 psi. the fun starts over 15 psi


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (bdcoombs)*

Depending on your EMS (like previous posters mentioned) 8:1 or slightly lower would be ideal. Remember, static comp can't be changed without sticking your grimy fingers between the head a block. . . so get that buffer nice and low while you're in there and force feed the rest with psi. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SSj4G60 (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (AAdontworkx3)*

aiming for that power and mine and am 8:1 , was gonna go 9:1 but rodney at JRC had a set of JE FSR for abf and gave a great deal i couldnt pass up


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## 91gl (Aug 11, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
my A2 got rear ended then i broke the subframe, got no wheels right now









if your parting it out (







) ill buy your whole engine setup for my rabbit, no joke


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (91gl)*

compression makes power not the other way around. 
why would you want to lower compression just to have to throw another 10 psi at to be at the same spot? so you can say I boost 35psi?
there are plenty of people out there that are making 400 horse with a 20v on a stock bottom end. 9.3:1 - 9.5:1 is stock 20v compression. 
I know you don't have a 20v, just making an example. Air Flow in and out of the head is going to be key.


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## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (1,3LG60)*

Add some water/methanol injection, you can run higher compression and it will be like running 104+ all the time.


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_compression makes power not the other way around. 
why would you want to lower compression just to have to throw another 10 psi at to be at the same spot? so you can say I boost 35psi?
there are plenty of people out there that are making 400 horse with a 20v on a stock bottom end. 9.3:1 - 9.5:1 is stock 20v compression. 
I know you don't have a 20v, just making an example. Air Flow in and out of the head is going to be key.


you will never be able to get everyone to grasp this!! my 16v motor is about stock compression, maybe more. on the street i run 17-20psi on pump. about 400whp, all day long. car will not stay on the road. its actually completley useless on the street. but i will run more boost, even on pump. it can handle it. and when it is time to up the boost even more you will have to run race gas.


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (turbodub)*

Right, but consider that not all motors are the same, you're talking about 'high' compression on a boosted motor that has a higher V/E . . . I don't have a 20v or a 16v, but i will tell you that port for port, both of those heads flow better than my old 12v bvh. . . . obviously, collective is a different story.


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_compression makes power not the other way around. 
why would you want to lower compression just to have to throw another 10 psi at to be at the same spot? so you can say I boost 35psi?


Discussed a long time ago...I'm not claiming to be right, so someone correct me if I am wrong, but compression from a turbo or supercharger has more power potential than cylinder compression. Its because when you lose some engine compression, you may be losing 50hp...but when u force feed it back with boost, the additional air and fuel and pressure will actually multiply the hp to 300hp more easily...thus the tradeoff for safety and high boost by lowering compression is worth it. I'm not saying higher compression and high boost sucks...its ideal, but its harder.
I can say that a 9:1 compression 16vT prolly makes 220whp at 11psi. You drop the compression to 8:1 and run 11psi...maybe around the same hp! However, an 8:1 compression 16vT will make 310-340whp at 17psi (less than 10 psi more...this has been proven on a dyno) on pump gas. Of course u cna run 9:1 with 17psi, but its not worth the extra tuning and risk. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Bottom line: compression psi is not really the key...its the cfm of air from the turbo that also comes with it...that's what the oldskool guys has alwyas been saying.



_Modified by GoKart_16v at 10:31 AM 12-21-2006_


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (GoKart_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoKart_16v* »_but its not worth the extra tuning and risk. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Bottom line: compression psi is not really the key...its the cfm of air from the turbo that also comes with it...that's what the oldskool guys has alwyas been saying.

compression is the key to power whether you want to believe me or not. and what is this extra tuning?
people lower there compression to help prevent detonation. if you size your turbo properly and don't push it out of its effeciency range, that and a good intercooler, temps will stay in check, then you can run high boost. 
if you want to build a high HP 16VT, talk to KILLA. if I remember correctly he had an aba16vt, built with all stock parts that made 500hp. I want to say that he removed the lower compression ABA piston and used 9a 16v pistons to up the compression.


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_
compression is the key to power whether you want to believe me or not. and what is this extra tuning?
people lower there compression to help prevent detonation. if you size your turbo properly and don't push it out of its effeciency range, that and a good intercooler, temps will stay in check, then you can run high boost. 


First off...turbo/supercharger compression of air into the engine has more potential than just higher engine compression.
Second...compression psi is *not* the key to power...it plays a part...but not the key. U can run a small turbo @ 30psi and all u get is low hp and lots of heat. U can run Aa big turbo that flow more at half the psi and u get more power and less heat. However, in term of 500hp, you're gonna need a big turbo with high boost...with empasist on "big" and cfm of air flow.
Yes, if u break it down...the additional air help cause bigger combustion...thus more "compression." But that is not really what we're talking about here...plus, compression without air is nothing much. We're talking compression ratio vs. turbo psi.
Detonation is the exact problem...and melting pistons...high compression with high boost and pump gas is just harder to tune (hence the extra tuning)...and people end up getting water injection or alky...just take more time trying to fine tune it.
On paper, u can say "u can do high compression with high boost." Well, I've seen plenty of people blow up their engines. If it was me, I'll take 30psi and 8.0:1 compression any time. You have a bigger buffer zone if something goes wrong as well. Alot of the high compression/high boost setup I've seen are dyno queens that drives daily at lower psi and pump gas. If they do high boost often, they'd prolly blow it up sooner or later. There was a guy who had a daily around 500hp with 7.5:1 and forged internal and sds...if I was him, I'd feel safer running that everday as well. I've prolly seen more high hp/low compression cars than equivilant power with higher compression.



_Modified by GoKart_16v at 11:39 PM 12-21-2006_


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (GoKart_16v)*

looks like you have your mind made up, 
you don't want to hear anything else then what you have already decided to be correct.


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (Stroked1.8t)*

ya, but you're pretty adamant on your tuning method as well. Doesn't make anyone wrong . . . your 400hp is no different than his 400hp. . . just takes more tuning to get 'yours' there.


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## SSj4G60 (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (AAdontworkx3)*

another thought to throw in is how efficient the chamber is in the head. The better designed the more timing you'll be able to run on any given c/r.


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (SSj4G60)*

i did throw that in there. . . V/E


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## GoKart_16v (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: 500-600 flywheel hp ABF turbo (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_looks like you have your mind made up, 
you don't want to hear anything else then what you have already decided to be correct. 


I'm not saying i'm correct...many rally cars do 9.0:1 at 30psi. I recognize that u can do high compression with hoost boost...check the 2.0T FSI in the GTI (with the help of direct injection). My point is that, in the real world, its easier to play with lower compression. No where did I say ur statements were completely wrong. 
The only thing is completely disagree with you is how important compression is in context to what we were talking about. Compression is just not important as flow, cfm, etc. like other people have mentioned. Compression is like a luxury...its good to have if u can manage it...but if you can't manage it, you can make up for it in many other ways...and have that tuning buffer zone.
Again, I'm not trying to fight u guys to the death on this topic jsut so I can win...I just want to debate it a bit. I read the stuff you're saying loud and clear, but I have to back it up if i don't completely agree. I'm still learning about it as well...that's why I use examples from other people setups and discussions...to try to keep from just being a bias thing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by GoKart_16v at 12:01 PM 12-22-2006_


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