# This isn't working well enough.



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

So, I got a new motor in. Its almost broken in. I was running around tonight playing with the PSC. I figured out that with the mk4 distributor, it fires twice in one cycle. I have to run the PSC in "2 cylinder" mode. RPM now works fine. 
I've got vacuum totally smoothed out and the blow off valve doesn't make the motor buck. I am running wastegate boost, 3-4psi. When I ease into the gas, AFR is 13.5. Into boost AFR goes from 13.5 to 12.0. 4psi WOT I have it at 11.6 right now for safety's sake. 
Now that I know what pre-ignition and detonation are, what they feel like and what they do, I am having problems. I don't hear or feel any detonation. When I go from a hard vacuum situation to boost really quickly the motor pre-ignites. It feels exactly like what blew my last motor. It shuts down and bucks hard and let off the gas like whoa. 
There is nothing I can do with the PSC to make it react to this situation. Basically what's happening is the motor is in hard vacuum and then I hit the gas and the turbo throws tons of air into the cylinders before registering with the MAF. I can tune based on pressure and RPM modifying MAF values. In this situation there is some flow by the MAF, but not much. The turbo kicks in, shoves air into the cylinders without having drawn enough air past the MAF. Thus I am still getting pressure and RPM inputs but its modifying the MAF signal and the MAF in this case hasn't had enough air drawn through it to make the AFR rich fast enough. 
There's nothing I can do to stop this, and I *do not* want to blow this motor. I am afraid to try and recreate the situation because If I make the motor pre-ignite its going to blow. 
Any suggestions? Keep in mind I do not have any more money to spend on this. Which also means blowing another motor as a PSC "pioneer" is not in my future.
Thanks


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## MEATPIPE (Jul 23, 2003)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Are your O2 sensors plugged in?


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (MEATPIPE)*

No. I have my Lambdaboy wideband hooked up and see no ecu adaptation to AFR


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## Quiz (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Whats the AFR at the point of crossover you describe above?


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Quiz)*

14.0


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

47 views, no ideas







same...
Talking to Quiz a bit over IM. Running it rich all the time would solve this. Meaning from 30" to 5psi+ AFR would always be 12.1 or so. That would work, but gas milage http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Does the PSC allow adjustments for the throttle position sensor? Can you use that as a basis for adjusting fuel rather than just what the MAF reports? 
What about an auxillary injector for added fuel based on manifold pressure, like with Aquamist, until the MAF catches up with the air flow?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

nope no TPS adjustment, unless you are using the PSC1-003 which is TPS and RPM (as opposed to Boost and RPM).
honestly evan, try goin back to a stock chip see how that is... it might be some funky ish w/ the NS SC chip


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

The stock chip would have more timing dude, which will only make this worse.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

I was just talking to Anand about this. He doesn't have this problem with the PSC. The reason I think I do is because I have literally no piping lag. I have about 2-3 feet of 2: piping and an intercooler with almost no pressure drop. Whatever's in the turbo hits the cylinders in a millisecond. 
So, when my turbo is "cruising" and I stomp it, the MAF is seeing "cruising" ariflow but the manifold is seeing boost cause the turbo works fast at these rpms. If i let off, the AFR will go back down, but at that point the MAF is seeing some airflow. 
My thoughts are move the MAF to other side of the system, but then again it doesn't know pressure so I will most likely have the same problem


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Sorry to hear that.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

The problem you describe it related to 'acceleration enrichment'
or 'accelerator pump' on a carburator
This not becasue the motor is changing speed, but rather because you are
changing the position of the THROTTLE quickly.
If you have a large volume of air in you intake system, long pipes, big IC.
This makes the condition worse, as this air can feed the engine before
the net flow increases and the MAF picks it up.
You are basically leaning the motor out for a short instant before airflow
picks up.... No too bad, there isn't much power here, but rather anoying.
There is not much you can do: Possible fixes
1. put the MAF closer to the TB. (so that is similar to stock)
2. don't SLAM the pedal to the floor
3. make software adjustment (i don't know where this function is on any VW chip)
Jeffrey Atwood


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Jefnes3)*

Thanks Jeffrey. I've been reading alot about enrichment and have actually programmed some into my maps. However I can't program too much or I will be running it too rich around low vacuum / low boost whenever it meets those pressures and I don't necessarily have the throttle pegged.
Don't these ecus automatically provide some sort of enrichment in situations like this? Would the fact that I am running no oxygen sensors have something to do with it?


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Evan,
I know you didn't have the best experience with water injection, but look at this logically. Brad is able to run 20 psi of boost with 15 degrees advance on his Saab with water injection. 
The reason you don't want to run lean is you don't want detonation due to over heated conditions in the combustion chamber. Hot surfaces and the compressed air make the fuel more volatile. Higher octane doesn't suppress detonation, it just reduces the volatility of the fuel. (I may be technically wrong, I'm not a chemist, but I'm just trying to make a point.) Water (alky/water) injection does the same thing, only it suppresses detonation by cooling combustion components and slows the burn rate of the fuel.
Running rich has the same effect, only you have undesirable consequences of less efficient burn. The fuel cools the combustion chamber, but results in unburned fuel. Fuel burns at a constant rate. If you have too much fuel (i.e., rich), there is not enough time for all of it to burn.
I think if you look at it logically, you may find water injection may fix your problem.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

sorry, i disagree with the above, higher octane, and water injection is NOT a fix for not enough fuel!!!!!!!!
i cant say this enough. 
if you think for one second that water injection will fix your problem that you have no "accelerator pump" your in for problems.....


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Don't these ecus automatically provide some sort of enrichment in situations like this? Would the fact that I am running no oxygen sensors have something to do with it? 

Yep these things are programmed into the ecu, BUT you have changes the 
volume of air between the MAF and TB compared to 'stock' thus YOU have 
changed the system dynamics.....
All standalone EMS have these features as well. They are required for 
smooth operation of an engine.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_sorry, i disagree with the above, higher octane, and water injection is NOT a fix for not enough fuel!!!!!!!!
i cant say this enough. 
if you think for one second that water injection will fix your problem that you have no "accelerator pump" your in for problems.....

I agree with Speed here...
I think that water injection is used like a 'crutch' all to often....

It should be used the way race fuel is used... a separate 'tune' that is 
beyond where pump gas can go. Like more timing.
I wouldn't tune a car such that it required race fuel or it would blow up,
same as I wouldn't tune to live/die by water injection.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Jefnes3)*

Ah, a difficult choice. Put the MAF on the low pressure side of the turbo, before many feet it intercooler piping, or on the high pressure side right before the throttle body for fast response. 
At least if the MAF is moved to the high pressure side near the throttle body one can run a BOV that vents to the atmosphere for the cool PSH sound.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Marty)*

I'm going to experiement with adding enrichment where it needs to be, hoping the cruising AFR's won't become too rich. I think the split second can probably do it... too many areas to change, yet not enough at the same time.
Let's hope for no "boom" this time...


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

This sucks! It's pretty clear that it's the ACC function at fault, and because you have a small turbo (relatively speaking of course) and short piping it responds super fast. Maybe running it very rich in the low vac zones will help?
Hope you figure it out!


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## WickedGTi (Dec 21, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Good luck with everything bro!


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_
Don't these ecus automatically provide some sort of enrichment in situations like this? Would the fact that I am running no oxygen sensors have something to do with it? 

I think it does. You guys on vortex are the only people I know running piggybacks without o2's hooked up.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (TooLFan46n2)*

I may try running with the 02s, but only after everything is tuned. Running with them will change my injector pulses and leave them like that after unplugging. 
The problem with running the 02s is that I can't get anything lower than 14.7 until I am in open loop. that's _kind of_ what's going on here, except I have lower rpms tuned alot richer getting into boost. 
I'll work in it, let you know







I'll be doing a crapload of changes to my basemap before I get in the car so I don't get dizzy trying to read the computer in the car


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

evan if yer running around n need a laptop reader lemme know...


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

There are too many variables with the PSC1 that I have found. We ALL should of bought the -E option to fix the open/closed loop problem (Running without O2 just seems ridiculous). Timing is another thing left out of PSC1. 
Thats why I'm probably gonna scratch the PSC1 and go with Perfect Power SMT-6. The closest piggy-back to Stand Alone I see. They've done a couple installations on MK4 VW and way better customer service than Splic Sec. Just take a loook at their VW wiring diagrams http://www.perfectpower.com/wi...u.asp. I've spoken to Bob Ida and he gave me the full low down.
Other features it includes not found on the PSC1 are:
Throttle Sensor learning feature
Ignition output limit (Limits max. advance and retard)
Lambda Signal Tuning
*Additional Injector Controller* 
A full feaure list can be found here: 
http://www.perfectpower.com/products/smt6.asp 


_Modified by LoGIc at 6:13 PM 7-23-2003_


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (LoGIc)*

i run sds with no o2's, no problems.


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_i run sds with no o2's, no problems.

Is your car an MK4 w/ DBW?


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (LoGIc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LoGIc* »_
Is your car an MK4 w/ DBW?

no


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## LoGIc (Oct 21, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_no

EXACTLY!!! Show me one MK4 with the PSC1 without any problems... My motor blew just like Evans'


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (LoGIc)*

Update!
Got the enrichment problem totally worked out. The problem was more my lack of knowledge and not the hardware. I was not able to reproduce the problem i had last night tonight. I've got midrange working just fine! However, I can't muster lower than 13.5 past 5500.
Time for a 4 bar.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

hey evan, for a 4bar, either get a obd1 VR6 fpr or a Passat 30v fpr


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

http://www.impexfap.com/partli...t6947
Maybe I'll roll up there this week http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Ehhem ........How many vr6's are in the shed?????Gimme a call in the morning. Stop by and grab one, Bring my tools with you , gonna need em.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Scrubby)*

morning? you aren't awake till like 5pm!!


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

Ahh Funny man pipes in....I kjust started the new job so im back to a somewhat normal schedule. You figure your stuff out yet? Oh by the way dont feel bad about yours ,my Tec unit is on the way to electromotive, dam EIP.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Scrubby)*

argh i have ONE NUT holding on mye xhaust manifold... the lower one closest to drivers side of the car... there doesn't seem to be any clearance to get a socket over it... and i can't figure out the angle to get a wrench on it 














i've spent like 30 minutes or more on it.... i can't even LOOK at it its in such a wierd place...
but yea once i get that off i can pull the turbo/manifold and look em over.... shaun wehere u workin now?


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

Thanks for the FPR Shaun








I'll be workin on dem flanges http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Update - the 4 bar FPR lowered my AFR 1 pt everywhere. Idle is now 13.6 as opposed to 14.7. Up top I am getting 12.5 AFR and That's it. The MAF is either maxed or the ECU will not accept enough alteration of the signal. I don't think this is going to be able to fuel any more than 4psi








Also, to make matters worse my Laptop took a turn for the worse. Its completely dead. So now I can't make any PSC changes. 
I don't know what to do. Something is telling me that the PSC isn't going to allow me to hold 12.1 through the upper part of the powerband. The MAF is either maxxed or the ECU won't take any more alteration of the MAF signal.
Does anyone have any ideas for fueling this car? mk4 2.0t


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## rocco2.0gtiLondon (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Pressure sensitive switch to activate a fifth injector at 4 psi or when ever the ECU has had enough!
This whole pioneering thing is great when it works but... i guess standalone could dig you outa this. 
Maybe its the only way out of this


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## jwspin (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (rocco2.0gtiLondon)*

this is good stuff. i ordered a psc but with the e option. on the phone the guy said that was the way to go. i hope this helps my tunability and also im running an obd1 car. i think party boy had a lot of success with his pcs. i think that was the screen name i dont remeber where i saw it. keep us posted, this helps me try to figure out what i need to do.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (jwspin)*

i talked w/ evan for awhile about it all tonight.... we agreed its eithe rthe MAF maxing out(need to run the VAG-COM on it and find out), or the alteration values are too great. possible solution will be a either Custom or VR6 MAF housing.
we also agreed on the fact that the PSC works GREAT on OBD1 cars, but the newer OBD2(especially mk4) Motronic engine management is a lot harder to work with(and to get to run correctly, and smoothly).... oh well we're gonna get this figured out


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

Well, I definately feel like any combination of the following is happening:
1. The alterations I am making are maxing the MAF out at 5 volts. Thus, dumping "5 volts" worth of fuel which is not enough
2. The alterations I am making are exceeding the threshold of what the ECU recognizes as normal conditions. Oxygen sensors are disconnected, but I think the ob2 motronic has more presets and defaults bulit in. I can add more volts to the MAF all I want, but even with the 4 bar the best i can muster is 12.5 past 4500
I have total control over the MAF voltage based on RPM and pressure. However, in the months worth of tuning I have done I can't get more fuel out of it. I can't decide if I think the idea is flawed? Adding MAF signal based on pressure and RPM.... Who says Pressure and RPM are closely related to airflow past a MAF? Close enough to stay within the MAF's limits.
Other possibilities include a bad MAF, poor MAF readings based on air turbulence, fuel pump just can't flow enough. 
1 - the MAF is brand new
2 - Maybe turbulence, but I ran the same intake setup supercharged and had no problems at all. 
3 - The fuel pump not flowing enough is a possibilty, however I noticed a total increase in fuel with the 4 bar FPR everywhere. Even up top. You would think that the fuel pump would give out even harder with the 4 bar making its job even harder.
So, right now I am misfiring after 4k (richening, then some jumpy MAF values tuned by me) and I can't get enough fuel to drive the car hard past 5k. I did before and lost a motor, so I won't push it this time. I have to say this works really well to modify the vacuum and low boost low rpm regions but I just can't get the fuel up top. 
What is it going to take to make this run right?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_What is it going to take to make this run right?

I know what Silverado is going to say!








But seriously, keep at it. It sounds like you're almost there. And you're wise enough to stop when you see it's not rich enough.
I think the MAF maxing out is a possiblity. I don't see how adding a larger housing is going to change anything, if the ECU can only accept a certain value, having a larger housing won't change anything will it? Maybe I'm a little too fuzzy as to how exactly the PSC goes about adding fuel.
Try and borrow a fuel pressure gauge from someone, though I doubt that is the problem if 4 psi of boost is all you're running.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_...Who says Pressure and RPM are closely related to airflow past a MAF? 


Evan, you're right about that. I can have peak boost at 3000 rpm, and less at 6500 rpm. It's also load dependent. The 5th injector idea is not a bad one, especially if you have a setup like the Aquamist 2c that uses a high-speed valve triggered by the fuel injector. That way, if you are cruising at 4000 rpm with no load, you have no boost. Hit the accelerator, up the boost, trigger the valve, and now you have fuel at 4001 rpm (or close to it--you get the picture).


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

You are absoultely right about not being able to get more fuel past 5500 RPM. This isn't only a mk4 problem. I believe (not 100% certain) that once you max out the maf, the ECU defaults to a preset A/F ratio or fuel setting. I think this can be altered with software, although I'm not positive. Thats why alot of 2.0T can only rev to 6000 RPM. You are not maxing out the feul pump.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (TooLFan46n2)*

I got better numbers when i put a CIS pump inline, but not good enough. this is what I have been trying to say.
You can only change the voltage coming from the MAF so much before motronic system goes into a stored fuel pattern. 
The bigger MAF sensor allows more air to flow through under less turbulance(simply stated) so the MAF voltage goes down and the ECU sees twice(a guess) as much air for the same voltage, this can only be ultilized with a chip that is programmed to add the right amount of fuel for the lower voltage.
I do not think it will help in this situation due to the fact that that is what you are allready trying to do with the PSC,, that is its only function. To change the MAF signal plus or minus voltage to take away or add fuel .(justa a guess, though)
But maybe it will help, since you will be able to lower the voltage that you need to alter in order to get more fuel. And that may allow you the ability to alter in the perametors. 
By maybe tunning in the voltage screen, that is possible with that unit is it not.(or not)
I would say bigger injectors, that should fix your problem.


_Modified by mattstacks at 10:43 AM 7-25-2003_


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

I didn't read this anywhere:
What size inj are you running?
if you are getting '5 volts' worth of fuel the inj are at 100% duty.
This indicates small injectors.
even if the MAF goes into saturation you should still be 'cutting' fuel
on the ENTIRE map if you have large enough injectors.

Jeffrey Atwood

_Modified by Jefnes3 at 10:24 AM 7-25-2003_


_Modified by Jefnes3 at 10:25 AM 7-25-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Jefnes3)*

310cc...


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

try 42's. i had no luck with 30's. 
That would solve your problems for now.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (mattstacks)*

I'm not sure I will be able to trim those back in vacuum though. Its a chance purchase...


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

If I do add the 42's and get rich enough up top - I am only running 4psi. Are these going to hold up for more?


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## Quiz (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

with a 4 bar FPR the 310cc convert to 357cc. that should be good to 180bhp. Used a .60 BSFC and 80% duty cycle


_Modified by Quiz at 12:20 PM 7-25-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Quiz)*

See what I wonder is how come my alterations are so much different than PARTY_BOY's. Mine are all in the 9, 10 + range getting richer as I accelerate. His are down in the 7's and he gets leaner on the split second as he accelerates. 
If you could take a look at both our maps side to side you'd understand what I am talking about. There is something fundamentally different about my setup and his. I am requiring so much more base fuel than him. He's trimming his 310's and 4 bar way back in vacuum and actually in boost too! I am adding fuel like its candy all over and still can't get enough fuel
obd1 vs. mk4 obd2


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Also, he has stated that he's found 310's and a 4 bar to max at 15psi. I can't fuel 4!


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_If I do add the 42's and get rich enough up top - I am only running 4psi. Are these going to hold up for more? 

If you already have bigger injectors than this isn't the problem. You guys are telling me that he needs bigger injectors to fuel 4 psi? Something just isn't right about that. My A/F dyno showed a 14.5 fueling 11psi @ 6200 rpm.


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## Quiz (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

May want to flow test those injectors to verify they are doing there job, and gauge the rail to verify system pressure.


_Modified by Quiz at 12:18 PM 7-25-2003_


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_See what I wonder is how come my alterations are so much different than PARTY_BOY's. Mine are all in the 9, 10 + range getting richer as I accelerate. His are down in the 7's and he gets leaner on the split second as he accelerates. 
If you could take a look at both our maps side to side you'd understand what I am talking about. There is something fundamentally different about my setup and his. I am requiring so much more base fuel than him. He's trimming his 310's and 4 bar way back in vacuum and actually in boost too! I am adding fuel like its candy all over and still can't get enough fuel
obd1 vs. mk4 obd2









Because your ECU is mapped for 4 Bar fuel delivery. I bet you would have better luck with a stock ecu.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (TooLFan46n2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TooLFan46n2* »_
If you already have bigger injectors than this isn't the problem. You guys are telling me that he needs bigger injectors to fuel 4 psi? Something just isn't right about that. My A/F dyno showed a 14.5 fueling 11psi @ 6200 rpm.

14.5 is way too lean. That blew my last motor. If I want this car to run right I need 12.1 __________________________________ across the powerband, maybe even richer at peak rpms to be safe. 
My ECU is mapped for a 4 bar, but I just added one and saw some good improvments. However, I already have the upper rpms mapped to deliver as much fuel as possible. Adding the 4 bar only got me to 12.5 at 4psi.


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## btr (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

If you think your maxing out the MAF, can't you with the PSC use TPS, MAP, and pressure to send a "fake" MAF signal to the ECU? esentialy convert the system to speed-density? Might solve the lean condition on throttle tipin too? plus you can vent the BOV?
Rob


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (btr)*

well once it hits 5V its maxed out, no more flowage...... and you can't take TPS + MAP at once w/ the PSC.... PSC1-001 is MAP, PSC1-003 is TPS


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

I had kyle drive it today. I said "tell me what you think" because he's the king of telling it like it is. His official word is "your car sucks"
2 options brought up by kyle which may make sense
Use an FPR
Hopeless project, ditch it


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Man you sure are stubborn,all this time wasted and you could have installed SDS and be enjoying awesome power and boost with perfect a/f ratio.I was polite and stayed out of your thread,but man,come on,the answer is right in front of you,SDSefi.com. Easy to install and easy to tune,don't be frustrated,be happy







and enjoy infinite tunability and reliability.If I was your tuner I would be lowering your compression and installing a SDS for you with 550 injectors and have it running cherry! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Sorry had to put my .02 in.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_Man you sure are stubborn,all this time wasted and you could have installed SDS and be enjoying awesome power and boost with perfect a/f ratio.I was polite and stayed out of your thread,but man,come on,the answer is right in front of you,SDSefi.com. Easy to install and easy to tune,don't be frustrated,be happy







and enjoy infinite tunability and reliability.If I was your tuner I would be lowering your compression and installing a SDS for you with 550 injectors and have it running cherry! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Sorry had to put my .02 in. 

after reading that, i'm goin to go break something, just because of that opinion, yes i'm goin to break something... JESUS CHRIST GET OFF OF SDS' NUTS! and let the boy do it his way!


_Modified by Anand20v at 4:22 PM 7-25-2003_


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

I hope it's not your motor,and BTW did you get your VR6T out of the 14's yet?Just curious...............and "his way" and "your way" aren't working to well now ,is it?


_Modified by SILVERADO at 9:24 PM 7-25-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (SILVERADO)*

Man, where were you when I first started posting about turboing my car? No offense, but your advice comes kind of late. I wish someone would have told me the mk4 2.0 can be tuned wihtout standalone. That would have made me save money longer. If someone had chimed in and said "tuning the mk4 is a hopeless project, don't do it without spending the bills on standalone" maybe I wouldn't be where I am now. I don't even want to do it. This motor is not worth another thousand dollars to me!
I think I will join you in preaching that standalone is the only way to go. I may even throw in the fact that a budget kit for the mk4 doesn't exist, and don't try it. The Neuspeed charger may only make 140 whp but at least it doesn't drive like my car now. I'll take less horsepower to be able to reve the car past 4k.


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

sounds to me like you need to talk to jefnes and collier about their oversized MAF deal ... the injectors aren't the problem .,.. those can flow alot more than you're flowing ... I'm going to point at the MAF as being the culprit ... I'd be curious to know what kinda of power you're putting out at the moment... have you moved the MAF yet? If so where's it at now? before the throttle body? Or what?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_I hope it's not your motor,and BTW did you get your VR6T out of the 14's yet?Just curious...............and "his way" and "your way" aren't working to well now ,is it?

_Modified by SILVERADO at 9:24 PM 7-25-2003_

actually my VR hasn't run in over a week cuz its been sititn waiting for me to take the ehxaust manifold off to figure out where the leak is comin from... and i can't go back to the track until i get a cut-off switch anyway
and "out of hte 14s", when on the street its dead even w/ a E46 m3... oh that was two nights after it first run, REAL untuned, at 6psi
"our" way is working, but being the first ones to really go in depth with this(other than party_boy), its taking some time...


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_I hope it's not your motor,and BTW did you get your VR6T out of the 14's yet?Just curious...............and "his way" and "your way" aren't working to well now ,is it?

_Modified by SILVERADO at 9:24 PM 7-25-2003_

Ok, we got it man.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (ExtremeVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ExtremeVR6* »_sounds to me like you need to talk to jefnes and collier about their oversized MAF deal ... the injectors aren't the problem .,.. those can flow alot more than you're flowing ... I'm going to point at the MAF as being the culprit ... I'd be curious to know what kinda of power you're putting out at the moment... have you moved the MAF yet? If so where's it at now? before the throttle body? Or what?

Yeh, they don't have the stuff to do mk4 ecus from what I have seen Jeff post. He's been throwing in his 6-8 cents here and there







(thanks). Right now I feel like its putting out between 150 and 160 but only before 4500 or so. At that point the current map i am running bucks the rest of the powerband. My laptop died so I haven't restored it back yet. 
Moving the MAF i have determined won't help. I have reached the threshold where the ecu will not accept any more changes in the MAF signal. The ECU has maps programmed in it which dictate where the maf voltage should lie. Its a NA 2.0 which was never meant for FI


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Do you know why?Because people like you and your boy are stubborn(which can sometimes be a good thing......)and don't want to listen to what they don't want to heaR.I have read your threads and all of your frustration,and you still insist on doing it "your way" but (as you already admit) it isn't working out for you.You are asking for some sort of "miracle" to fall in your lap and it is'nt gonna happen that way.I am telling you from experience of turboing 10 cars already.For one,you are trying to tune for stock compression,and your "tuning" is'nt working out for you,I am trying to save you from another blown motor,if you want to be cheap,then try Digi-1 already,if you want to boost past 14psi then try SDS or other stand alone,Sh*T,you already bought a wideband and with SDS you can be rocking already!Have you ever looked at the SDS tech site,and read their artricles on tuning?You will learn a lot,I sure did,and now will be looking forward to faster times and reliable running.Check out VW Sport.com,my time puts me in the "top 10 fastest 8V list" in the country.Not bad for a amateur and faster than your boys VR turbo.......SDS and good tuning that's why.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (SILVERADO)*

your better than me


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

No,but I have more experience than you,and have walked in your shoes and am trying to help you have a fast and good running car,and am telling you HOW I DID IT,as a amateur tuner,and YOU CAN DO IT TOO!!!But you don't want tyo listen.................







http://www.sdsefi.com osr SNS tuning.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

Get bigger injectors and trim them out, just like Jef Said if you are throwing 5V at the ecu they are pushing as hard as motronic will push them.. 
Call Split second and Ill bet you they say to try bigger injectors.
Or maybe an inline fuel pump. 
I will not say to get SDS it is obvious you do not want to. But Take my advice and the only one on here that has the ability make a vr t kit and try bigger injectors. 
I would say that setup is worth the extra 1k it is a very nice setup.
I don't see why you guys are so dead set on that fueling system you try something and it does not work you are not pioneering anything you are tricking a machine and its on to you...Move on.. Please 


_Modified by mattstacks at 4:51 PM 7-25-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (SILVERADO)*

I am listening to every single word your saying. If you would listen to me, you would know that I have said 100 times over, I am not putting a standalone system on this car. 
I have also said, in no particular order:
This isn't working well enough
the mk4 ecu doesn't have the capability to be manipluated like this
This car and this AEG engine is not worth the cost of standalone to me
I am not getting standalone
I can't afford standalone
I don't want 300 horsepower! 
I don't want to afford what goes along with 300hp
The point of this project was not to build a 300+ hp 10 second street monster. It was all about making a faster 2.0. At not point did I ever say I had hopes of anything above 200 wheel. The fact is the powerplant can't take over 200 wheel. The ECU can't even fuel 150/160 wheel 
I am moving on


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

I dont have anywhere near 300whp ,but if you want it to run reliably,then that takes $$$ and a stand alone.If you want low boost/decent power then unplug your 02's and run your stock injectors and bolt that FMU back in and tune it with your wideband.Easy & cheap!!!


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

sorry man. 
serously

F it 


_Modified by mattstacks at 9:39 PM 7-25-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (mattstacks)*

I just ruled out a few things
30# injectors are ok. Stocks went back in and no change in the fuel curve up top. 
I replaced my fuel pump with a 1.8t pump. Its no different in flow, but new at least. I had it laying around. No change 
I am going to set the psc tonight to "no change" and see how the Neuspeed chip / 4 bar works.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

just threw the 4 bar on the stock injectors... rich as crap. 
I now think those 30# injectors are junk. I should have bought new ones not someone's old stuff.
I'll play more with it tonight. Hopefully see improvements


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_I just ruled out a few things
30# injectors are ok. Stocks went back in and no change in the fuel curve up top. 


You dropped 30# inj for 19# injectors and you saw NO change in the a/f ratio?
(I am assuming that you still have the o2 unplugged and the 'same' PSC map)
This is a HUGE realization.... ~50% change in inj size and no A/F changes.
Sounds to me like problem solved/found.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Jefnes3)*

get bigger ones, if you do the math you have, 204 HP needs a minamum of 294 cc's per minute, that is at 100% duty cycle.
Add 15 percent to get down to 85 and you get 
337.9 cc's per minute. 
You would definately need larger injectors to reach 200 h/p.


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## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (mattstacks)*

whoa ... wait I'm confused ... you went from 310cc injectors to roughly 200cc injectors and saw no change? <boggle> I'm going to call foul on those #30 injectors... something was definately wrong there...


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (ExtremeVR6)*

What lbs or cc;s are stock aeg injectors .what are stock vr6 injectors and what are stock G60 injectors flow rates? It sounds as if the injectors are junk.Where did you get them Evan?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Scrubby)*

stock 2L and VR6 are the same.....at least in the MK3's 
Mk3 =19# ~205cc

Jeffrey Atwood


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_and "out of hte 14s", when on the street its dead even w/ a E46 m3... oh that was two nights after it first run, REAL untuned, at 6psi
man get some vids of that
good luck with that PSC


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (D Wiz)*

Sorry bro,that car does 13.2 stock and your car does 14.4


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_stock 2L and VR6 are the same.....at least in the MK3's 
Mk3 =19# ~205cc

Jeffrey Atwood

That's the same for MK4s.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

Found the problem! It runs awesome. As it turns out the 30# injectors I have are total crap. They are Venom 30#'s bought off a vortexer. All my tuning, all this frustration was because the injectors were trash. I am running stockers now with a 4 bar and maxing them at 7psi. It runs nice and rich! I'm so excited!
Now I just need to score some new 30#'s or stock 1.8t's would work. That and a clutch... whoops








Sorry for all the drama folks
I'll have my friend videotape my torching the venoms. They gave me months of headache and 1 blown motor. ******* venom


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

OH DAMN!








For all you know those could be stockers from another car!!! Too bad!


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

yup the 30# injectors were the problem, looks like they were CRAP.... we tuned it w/ the stock injectors, and w/ the 4bar FPR in there, maxed the injectors out at around 8PSI @ 5500RPM(holds a 13.4-13.7 a/f). according to the vag the on time of the injectors sits at 16.32ms after 5,000rpm
agtronic, no they are def. red tops, which _should_ indicate 30#, but by the values in the PSC, they were flowing less than 19#.. crazy ish
and after tonight, evan should be investing in a clutch soon LOL we used and abused that poor thing haha
*oh, to Silverado and Danny, the vid: here u go - its about 18mb*
second gear roll, 35MPH(starting out in my crappy spot), all of second, and all of third... btw, i was shifting at a little shy of 6,000rpm, and yes thats me pulling hard at the top of third. btw, he was on the inside of the corner as well


_Modified by Anand20v at 11:29 AM 7-26-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Agtronic)*

Yeh, its quite ridiculous to think about now. They were sold to me as 310cc injectors, venom brand in a venom box. Maybe I'll see if there is a receipt in the box. Oh well. That explains why tuning this was so erratic an unresponsive. They must be clogged or just suck. 
Oh well, sorry for all the drama. The PSC was so easy to tune tonight too. In less than hour we had a map for 5 psi then upped to 7 where the top leans slightly. VAG-COM shows the injectors as maxed. So, time for some 30#'s but this time I am buying NEW!


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## sdisme (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*

I want to hear more!!!
Congrats! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (sdisme)*

Well,I really hope that is your solution,I have a set of brand new (almost,5k miles)Bosch 30# I will sell you for $75.00,guaranteed to work.If that is the cause of your problems,then HALLELUJAH !BTW ,with your stock compression setup I would shoot for richer than 13.7:1,you should be going for 12's or high 11's a/f ratio.Good luck.I really wish you success.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Found the problem! ... As it turns out the 30# injectors I have are total crap. They are Venom 30#'s bought off a vortexer. All my tuning, all this frustration was because the injectors were trash. 

Makes you wanna puke! It's always the (seemingly) little stuff. I guess that's why carpenters say to measure twice, cut once.
Chances are, whoever sold you the injectors knew they were bad. At this point, I'd get some stock 1.8T injectors from vwparts or a set of RC Engineering injectors. Don't take any more chances (not directed at you, Silverado).
Hey, Pat at http://www.pro-imports.com is looking for a good mechanic and is paying well! With your experience...who knows? For what he's paying, I would have jumped on it when I was out of work last fall (but I'm probably not qualified).


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

Not rich enough.

204 HP needs a minamum of 294 cc's per minute, that is at 100% duty cycle.
Add 15 percent to get down to 85 and you get 
337.9 cc's per minute. 
You would definately need larger injectors to reach 200 h/p
why 30#ers???????


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (mattstacks)*

matt, by those calculations, how are 1.8Ts putting down over 200WHP on stock 270cc injectors?


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Not rich enough.

204 HP needs a minamum of 294 cc's per minute, that is at 100% duty cycle.
Add 15 percent to get down to 85 and you get 
337.9 cc's per minute. 
You would definately need larger injectors to reach 200 h/p
why 30#ers???????

Matt, I am also running a 4 bar. What size do you reccomend? I only want to buy once


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## Sahale (Apr 9, 1999)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (LoGIc)*

thats because you guys are missing the whole other half of the tuning equation called ignition timing.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Sahale)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sahale* »_thats because you guys are missing the whole other half of the tuning equation called ignition timing.

if you read the rest of the post, you will see that all is well now, it was bad injectors


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## Quiz (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Sahale)*

with a 4 bar FPR the 310cc convert to 357cc. that should be good to 180bhp. Used a .60 BSFC and 80% duty cycle.
Im not sure the cc on 1.8t injectors but if you need a set Evan, get my number from Scrubby. 1500 miles on them.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_matt, by those calculations, how are 1.8Ts putting down over 200WHP on stock 270cc injectors?

The proper fuel system set up optimally, what he said the proper timing, even after market flashes are going to work better with an ecu that is set up to read positive pressure. 
I thought about your larger FPR after I posted that, you should be good, to 200 by the math with the 4 bar you would probably be running at around 80 percent duty cycle give or take a couple. but you are going to want to run more. Especially if you have fueling handled .
I would go with 42#s they will hod you off up to around 300 H/P 
If you can tune it then why not push it a little.
I am jsut using the formula givin in the SDS manual and Maximum boost. 
I am not saying you cant do it with the 30#'s but you wouldnt be able to go much further.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (mattstacks)*

Thanks Matt. I can push it, and running injectors that actually work I can see the sensitivty in adjustment with the PSC. 
I think 30# would take me to around 9psi. My stockers are actually not enough for 7psi for hold 12.1. It leans out, and we've got a map in there to try and dumop fuel which just makes it buck
I may throw some stock 1.8ts in there to see how far they will take me - if they are cheap and my friends have some. I'm going to get at least some 30# or 36# from Scott Williams when he backs from traveling


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## vdubguy18 (Jul 25, 2003)

glad to hear things are well evan. I was reading all your past problems and up to now im glad you got things worked out and didnt give up. Now im 100% sure I want to do the turbo kit on my AEG aswell...im just gonna do the ATP kit rather then custom I think and possibly SDS and 30# injectors but then again I might hold off on SDS if even get it. I just dont want the ATP chip


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_matt, by those calculations, how are 1.8Ts putting down over 200WHP on stock 270cc injectors?

1.8T injectors (AWP engine) are 315cc (30#).


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaRed* »_
1.8T injectors (AWP engine) are 315cc (30#).

i could have sworn i heard jamesb talking about how when he went to 310s his car ran a lot richer (he has a AWW)


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## rocco2.0gtiLondon (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

Injectors can be cleaned, take them to a garage with the machine and u might save some $$$
-Rich


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## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*

I don't think they are 315cc either. Maybe 270 or 290.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_
i could have sworn i heard jamesb talking about how when he went to 310s his car ran a lot richer (he has a AWW)

I'm going by what the Bentley says. 157ml per 30 seconds.


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

I remember someone offered me a ride ,when its working.....................................................................................


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Scrubby)*

When deciding inj. size take the stock size ar your 'base' and figure from there....

Take stock #19 inj. basically good for ZERO boost (per VAG)
now for every 8psi add 50% of your 'base' to find your new inj size.
so for 8psi use 30# inj
for 15 psi use 40# inj
for 23psi use 50# inj
Thes are all rough, but will get you thinking that you should really use large inj
to make large power...
4 x 360cc is good to ~200whp
4 x 440cc is good to ~250whp 
4 x 550cc is good to ~300whp
Also be aware that there is a limtiation to how far you can 'trick' the ecu
using the PSC so don't get your appetite bigger than your stomach...
BTW: the Venom injectors are probably 'fine' they are just NOT the 30# flow
that you thought you bought, get after the guy you bought them from.
Jeffrey Atwood


_Modified by Jefnes3 at 9:39 PM 7-26-2003_


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (Jefnes3)*

Jeff,
So, based on your formulas, the stock 1.8T injectors with a 4 bar fpr should be good for 200 whp.
(BTW, that is consistent with the formula that RC Engineering gives for 230 bhp--362cc)


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: This isn't working well enough. (JettaRed)*

VAG says stock 1.8T inj are good for ~180....
So 200whp should be ok.
I only run my 30# inj. on 9 psi of boost I hit ~low 80's% duty....
pressure = 3bar.
There is a little room for more, but the injectors will live effectively forever
when used in this manner.
Considering how cheap injectros are, thers is no reason to abuse small injectors
and blow up when they die...
Jeffrey Atwood


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