# Fueling Issues Weber DCOE



## EuroTrash_84 (Dec 8, 2013)

Alright this is probably going to be a long one but I am stuck.

So for the last 5 years my Golf 16V has been running awesome on my 45 DCOE Webers, not a thing to complain about, how ever this year has been wrought with problems and now the car is entirely not running.

*Relevant Specs:*
Fuel Pump: Facet Silver Top
FPR: Malpassi 67mm
Fuel Pressure: 3psi
Carbs: Dual Weber DCOE 45's

*The Issue:*
So it started a few weeks ago where my car when starting cold would idle fine and rev fine under idle, but under load it was acting as if it was being starved for fuel, never stalling just no power and acting like it was starving, the problem however is my wideband 02 gauge was reading a solid 10 meaning the car was running way rich and did smell like fuel.

However once the car warmed up to operating temp it came back to life. I figured the floats might be sticking so I gave the internals a good soaking with carb cleaner, this seemed to solve my issue and the car was back to its same old lovable self. This week I take the car out for a drive and everything is still A-OK, however as I am pulling into my driveway she stalls (out of nowhere) it didn't idle down and putter out it just clicked off.

I immediately tried to restart it but it just cranked and cranked and cranked and I am guessing it was flooded so I figured I better just leave it to dry out. So about an hour later I come back and try and start it and it cranks for a good 20 seconds and then fires up, I try and take it for a drive around the block but as I am coming up the alley it begins to back fire (LOUDLY) and starts losing power I put my foot to the floor and it makes no difference car once again cuts out.

Now I am thinking this has got to be something actually wrong/broken, I push the car into the garage and decide to deal with it in the morning.

So this morning I go out to the garage and the car fires right up, I check my FPR fuel pressure gauge and I see its sitting at like 1.5psi, so I reset it back to 3psi. Warm the car up and start driving made it to the end of my block before the car the again switched off like someone turned the key, tried to restart it and again it won't fire.

A lot more cranking later and it fires and I b-line back to my garage but before I can get there it cuts out again. Cue the starter symphony more cranking, I get it to fire check my fuel pressure again 1.5psi; so I go to reset it but the screw is maxed out so I try max it out in the other direction no change on the gauge, it's now just sitting at 1.5psi.

I figure this is weird and maybe my fpr is causing these issues. Once again I push the car back into my garage.

*What I've Tried Thus far:*

Checked for spark, it is good and strong

Air filters are cleaned

I've also disconnected my main fuel feed line from my pump to the FRP (entirely bypassing FPR rig) and attached it directly to a different FP guage and turn the pump on, it is reading 2psi. Now I am not sure but this seems like a problem to me considering that...



> Maximum fuel delivery 36 gallons per hour. Maximum pressure 4 to 5 psi. Typical flow 23 gallons per hour at 2 psi. 1/8 NPT female ports. Negative ground (12v) only.


So in theory my pump should be putting out 4-5psi unregulated, right?

So now I hook my carbs up directly to my fuel feed line (again bypassing and thus ruling out my FPR as the culprit) and try and start the car and it still will not fire, just cranks and cranks and cranks.

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So now here I am, the problem is either my 1 year old fuel pump (installed last May) is broken or my Weber carbs have developed a mystery issue, or my piston rings have magically vanished rendering my car compressionless, but my car came up with good compression numbers last September before it was parked.

The car seems to not be getting enough fuel while at the same time getting too much fuel. My car has become a paradox.

*EDIT: So today (May 21st) I was able to get the car running bypassing the FPR (still trying to conclude that it is not broken) when I took it for a drive around my neighborhood it was hesitating and acting like it was being starved for fuel but again my wideband was showing it was excessively rich. When I was backing into my drive way the same thing happened as the other day where the car just simply shut off, no idling down and dying it just cut out and just like the other day would not restart and then the engine flooded. I will also add that my fuel pump cold was putting out 4.5psi and then dropped to around 3psi when warmed up, I believe my fuel pump is operating correctly.

I am beginning to think the problem lies inside my Webers themselves, the carburetors have been on the car since they were new in 2009. I am guessing that after 5 years they might need to be rebuilt.*


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## meinwagen (May 14, 2011)

*fueling isssues*

Extend the fuel pressure gauge with a hose and tape it to the windshield. drive it around again and see what the fuel pressure does when it starts to act up.

How are you venting the fuel tank?

Are you still stock or race cell type?


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## EuroTrash_84 (Dec 8, 2013)

I am not venting the tank in any special way, however the tank normally vents stock is just what is in place. I could try the fuel gauge on the window trick this weekend, had it running yesterday after I disassembled my carbs and soaked and cleaned everything which didn't seem to help, when I put it all back together it was still running like a bag of **** and only ran for a short time before it shut itself down.

Interesting note my fuel pump was running normal PSI's two days ago (5psi-4psi range) but yesterday the pump would not feed more than 1.5psi again dropping to 1psi when I revved the engine.

At this point I am tempted to order a full rebuild kit for the carbs, a new fuel pump and pressure reg and hope for the best.

Also I should note the poly floats in my carbs seemed to be sort of etched from the fuel but they didn't appear to have fuel inside of them, my needle valves were slightly sticking in their guide housings even after being cleaned but I am not sure how much sticking is normal outside the normal fuel soaked environment, also the accelerator pumps moved smoothly on both carbs and seemed functional.

*Edit - Had a bit of time today to run the car in the drive way (Can't drive it and risk it breaking down when I have to work in a few hours) today after my cleaning yesterday the started much easier today than it has in the past week, my fuel pressure was back up to 5psi. I noticed with the engine warm the car was sitting at about 800RPM idle and about 13.5 on the A:F gauge, when I used the gas pedal to increase RPM's to 1,500 the A:F gauge went to a solid 18 and the off the chart in the lean direction with lots of backfiring, as I increased the throttle towards 2,000 RPM the A:F gauge came back to around 14, at 3,000 RPM the A:F gauge read between 11 and 12.5.

My revs are still not smooth however and its kind of jerky like I have a dead cylinder in my engine which I do not, or like it's being starved of fuel even though the wideband is reading more than enough fuel when I am reving the engine. Also to note when I shut the car down today and attempted to restart it it restarted with little effort unlike the past couple days where when it was off it would not restart and would crank and then flood.

A final thing to note, when I was reving it today I was doing so from both inside the car and under the hood, and even at 3,000rpm when the rough accelerating is most noticeable the fuel pump stayed between 5-4psi. *


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## EuroTrash_84 (Dec 8, 2013)

Sigh, this is a serious bummer.

Well today I ordered new needle valves because I've heard that the needle valves in Webers can 'etch' and leak fuel constantly into the bowls. I ordered a different fuel pump because I am still 50/50 on my current pump, I also ordered up some brass floats for my carbs because while my poly ones did not seem to have fuel they definitely look like they are being slowly eaten by the fuel.

Is there anyway the a Weber DCOE carb could form a vacuum leak from the carb body itself? My seals between carbs, mani, head are all solid.

Tomorrow I am going to also put new spark plugs in the car because I've been running the same plugs for the last 5 years as well.


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## EuroTrash_84 (Dec 8, 2013)

So today I installed brand new 200 needle valves in both carburetors, as well as brand new and set floats in both carburetors. Started the car which started up cold fairly easily (been sitting for a week with no action) warmed it up for a bit noticed it was revving smooth again I figured hell problem solved.

So I pulled out into my alley to take it for a test drive and sure enough I made it about 200M down the alley before the car shut down (from 1200rpm to 0rpm is less than a millisecond) and again refused to restart having me once again do the walk of shame with it back into my driveway.

*So for starters the things I know to be good:*

Needle valves
Floats
Every other jet looks good
Mounting gaskets carbs->mani->head all look good
Fuel Pump
FPR
Fuel pressure in & out

*Things I am unsure of:*

Sparkplugs (waiting for motor to cool down so I can pull them)

*New leads for the problem:*

Check compression again across all cylinders
Bad MSD Box?
Accelerator pump circuit?


I am running into more dead ends than I am leads, at this point I am considering either replacing the carburetors entirely with an EFI system or sending the carbs away to a rebuilder.

*EDIT: I took off the the air filter and decided to see what the pump jet was doing when I gave the car WOT (car not running) to my surprise the pump jet gave a pretty good size shot of fuel, is the pump jet not suppose to give an atomized spray or is it normal to squirt a shot?

Also pulled all 4 of my spark plugs and they are all black as night and fuel soaked.*


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

it seems odd that your car has been running fine for about 5 years, then with basically the same settings, its not. anyway, this is what I would try.
brass float settings are different than the "spansil floats. should be 7.5mm at shutoff and 15mm at full drop. make sure the floats are also equal ( parallel ) to one another.
set fuel pressure to 3lbs.
make sure your timing has enough advance or it will run very weak and rich.
check what accelerator pump jets and pump bleeds you have, they may be too rich
wait till everything is done here before fiddling with the jetting otherwise you will be jetting the carbs to run with a motor that has an issue, and will be masking the true problem by trying to compensate for it by adjusting the carburetor. obviously, you need to start off with the carbs balanced and idling well, but wait for jetting changes until you have eliminated any other problems first


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## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

candm said:


> it seems odd that your car has been running fine for about 5 years, then with basically the same settings, its not. anyway, this is what I would try.
> brass float settings are different than the "spansil floats. should be 7.5mm at shutoff and 15mm at full drop. make sure the floats are also equal ( parallel ) to one another.
> set fuel pressure to 3lbs.
> make sure your timing has enough advance or it will run very weak and rich.
> ...


one thing I forgot is fuel filters. would check the weber ones at the fuel inlet, as well as, any other ones you have. I don't use the ones that come on the carbs. I have one right after the tank before the fuel pump, and one just before the carbs


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## EuroTrash_84 (Dec 8, 2013)

I did make sure the brass floats were set to the proper brass float settings
Fuel pressure is set exactly to 3lbs from a 5psi input
Timing I have been running for the last 5 years is 38* advance on dizzy; 2* advance on cam.

My carburetor settings are:
36mm chokes
60F9 Idle jets
150 main jets
F16 Emulsion tube
50 Accelerator pumps
200 Needle valves
180 Air correctors
40 Pump bleeds

Again these are the settings I have been running for the last 5 years. Also when I checked the fuel filters in the top covers of my webers they were exceptionally clean, I still cleaned them off because I had them out but they look very good. I was running a 74 micron on my tank, a 10 micron before the carbs and then the carb filters, I have since though eliminated the 10 micron filter and have the 74 micron on the tank and the filters in the carbs.

I've recently read that the cold start chokes on these webers can go bad leading to excessively rich mixtures, I've since ordered a deletion kit to eliminate these systems from my carbs. Currently I am waiting for them to arrive from the UK.

I appreciate all the help I am getting from the community and friends, I am really hoping to get this fixed soon.


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## EuroTrash_84 (Dec 8, 2013)

Well this one is going to be short because I am almost out of options and fed up.

My cold start circuit elimination kits arrived today and I installed them on both carbs as well as installed brand new NGK spark plugs, car started up and idled for all of 30 seconds before cutting out and flooding.

Pulled the spark plugs and they were dripping fuel. I have no idea what could STILL be causing the car to over fuel so badly.

*So far I have:*


Installed new 2.00 needle valves

Installed and gaped new brass floats

Eliminated and blocked cold start circuit & plumbing

New spark plugs

Disassembled & cleaned all jets


The only thing I have left to do is downsize all my jets because they are nearly all a size to big for my engine, but I don't see that solving anything because like I said before my jet settings have been keeping me running for the last 5 years and I can't imagine they would suddenly not work.


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## EuroTrash_84 (Dec 8, 2013)

I think I've finally had a break through due to some information on some old Jaguar forums.

Turns out it seems to be a multi-layered problem that came about due to a perfect **** storm.

So due to my obviously oversize/rich jet settings my car is usually bathing in fuel, I never thought to much of it because my mileage was always alright, I drove it hard anyways so. The two things I did this year that were different than previous years is when I parked it for the winter I forgot to unhook my fuel feed line from the carbs (fuel tends to consistently draw from the fuel tank over time), second every spring I've changed my oil for fresh oil, this spring I decided my oil was still clean enough that I could get another season out of it.

What I neglected to realize is that over a season my oil takes on a bit of fuel which weakens it (obviously), second thing that I didn't clue in on is that it drew more fuel into the oil sitting over the winter.

When I started it up and took it for a drive the very first time this year my oil had just enough viscosity to keep things feeling normal, that initial drive though introduced more fuel into the system which turned the balance in the wrong direction. The next two drives where the car felt like it was hesitating and had no power I was experiencing fuel cylinder wash.

However the 3rd and 4th(final) time I drove it this year it drove alright because I had thrown in an engine oil stabilizer, until the end of the drive on the 4th time when the fuel was overcame the viscosity of the oil and stabilizer cutting down my compression mixed with a fuel rich environment leads to wet plugs and a non-firing engine.

This was made worse by all my times over the few weeks trying unsuccessfully to get it running introducing more fuel into my oil pan up until the point last night where I decided to check my dip stick and discovered that it was entirely gasoline on my dipstick with a very faint track of oil.

So I believe that due to my negligence to unhook the fuel feed line over the winter and by trying to be frugal and not change my oil I caused a very bad cylinder wash situation combined with richly jetted carbs and leaking cold start circuits and a 300K+KM motor.


On Tuesday I will run a cylinder compression test to confirm this theory

After which I am going to do a fresh oil change with 0W60 

Next I will re-jet my carbs

Finally I will pour an ounce or so of oil down into each cylinder through the spark plug holes

I am hoping that by replacing my ruined oil with fresh oil, fixed and jetted carbs that I can get it to come back to life.

*I do stress though that this is just a theory, a strong theory but still just that, if anyone has any other ideas please let me know what you think.*


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