# Water Air Intercooler thread



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

I am very interested in this topic.

Please post pics of your setups.

Thoughts/Opinions of this type of setup.

Ideas for mounting the heat exchanger.

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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Just copy Max. :laugh: Seriously, the OEM VR side mount aux rads can be used but they're not worth the money IMO over an aftermarket dedicated heat exchanger. I'm holding off til summer and then installing an AWIC in my daily 225 so I'll be watching this thread til then. :thumbup::beer:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

20v master said:


> Just copy Max. :laugh: Seriously, the OEM VR side mount aux rads can be used but they're not worth the money IMO over an aftermarket dedicated heat exchanger. I'm holding off til summer and then installing an AWIC in my daily 225 so I'll be watching this thread til then. :thumbup::beer:


Hmmm ya my first idea was to mount two heat exchangers where the factory intercoolers go. Have not seen Max's set up or the OEM vr ones.

My main concern is fitting an exchanger in front of the radiator and the affect on the coiling system.

That being said I like the idea so much I'm changing the throttle body position and intake manifold to aid in the process.

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## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

*changing position of throttle body*



[email protected] said:


> Hmmm ya my first idea was to mount two heat exchangers where the factory intercoolers go. Have not seen Max's set up or the OEM vr ones.
> 
> My main concern is fitting an exchanger in front of the radiator and the affect on the coiling system.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about flipping to a passenger side tb? I'm considering going air to water and this is one of the main things I was thinking about. 
I'll be following this closely.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

ramone23456 said:


> Are you talking about flipping to a passenger side tb? I'm considering going air to water and this is one of the main things I was thinking about.
> I'll be following this closely.


I have a 180q awp ...I'm am going to flip to driver side throttle body like you 225 guys.

If you do battery relocation it leaves a.real nice spot for water to air intercooler that has 90 degree entry/ exit I have this intercooler in mind

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...d=214&osCsid=ef86b81722ec2cda8ed091121a6f6b72

I'm going to look at fitment a bit more if I find a cleaner route for.passenger side I will go that way.

My concern with passenger side is the proximity to the hot engine. 

Advise/Suggetions are welcome and appreciated. 

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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Look here for some ideas:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...Charge-Cooling-quot-a-different-approach-quot

And more here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5788526-Chronicles-of-a-track-TT

The driver side of the bay seems to be the most logical/preferred route taken with the 1.8t motor (small battery or relocation makes it easy and leaves tons of room). Heat exchange surface area is important and so is airflow through them, focussing on optimizing these two areas will net you the best results (don't just focus on getting air to the exchangers, because airflow behind them is equally important). I ran with big pull fans on my exchangers and I can tell you it helps greatly at avoiding heat soaking the system when the car stopped moving. 

The next big thing to having a good setup is fluid volume and flow. Therefore, be smart with component choice, placement and don't restrict the system with small fittings, or unwanted angles with the fluid flow. Follow these simple guidelines and you'll have great results.


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## Dowski12 (Nov 2, 2011)

here is my setup







Pretty much what you are describing but I also have a reservoir mounted under the driver side headlight. Hope this helps


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> My main concern is fitting an exchanger in front of the radiator and the affect on the coiling system.


A 3 row radiator is ~$130 at ECS, and is a great addition to our poorly cooled/poor flowing front end. The fact that you aren't blocking the whole radiator with a thick FMIC means you won't have the same negative effects when running a smaller heat exchanger dedicated to the AWIC in front of the condensor/radiator.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Easier on the 6 as the battery is already relocated..

Steve


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

sTT eV6 said:


> Easier on the 6 as the battery is already relocated..


I think there are a few other mods that have to be done first to make an AWIC useable on a 6.  Too bad they don't come with turbos from the factory.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

For the OP, here is the proper arrangement for the components (diagram taken from 'Maximum Boost' by C. Bell). 











This is what my setup looked like when I ran it (a bit different than 90* inlet/outlet core and orientation that everyone uses):


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## G'D60 (Mar 11, 2002)

I've always wondered if I could ever use two small motor cycle rad's as heat exchangers and mount them near or under the SMIC...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

G'D60 said:


> I've always wondered if I could ever use two small motor cycle rad's as heat exchangers and mount them near or under the SMIC...


For a street friendly setup (capable to run without heat-soaking the fluid for most of the normal use), you need as much surface area as possible for the exchanger(s), and good airflow to/from them. The smaller you go with the fluid exchanger(s), the more the system is geared toward being capable of only controlling a single stint of WOT (think drag race setup). Normal street driven cars must have large exchanger to allow repeated consecutive WOT before totally soaking the fluid and reducing its ability to remove heat. Yes, small radiators placed by the SMIC will work, but might not be the best idea for a car that lives in the street. :beer:


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

20v master said:


> I think there are a few other mods that have to be done first to make an AWIC useable on a 6.  Too bad they don't come with turbos from the factory.


Oh, that's just being picky..
Just showing that there is lots of useable space available upfront.
Steve


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## G'D60 (Mar 11, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> For a street friendly setup (capable to run without heat-soaking the fluid for most of the normal use), you need as much surface area as possible for the exchanger(s), and good airflow to/from them. The smaller you go with the fluid exchanger(s), the more the system is geared toward being capable of only controlling a single stint of WOT (think drag race setup). Normal street driven cars must have large exchanger to allow repeated consecutive WOT before totally soaking the fluid and reducing its ability to remove heat. Yes, small radiators placed by the SMIC will work, but might not be the best idea for a car that lives in the street. :beer:


Thanks for the heads up Max. Do you think the core exchanger that Dowski is using is overkill? or is that size ideal? I'm looking at a core about half the size in height but with the same length. I imagine that would work better than dual motor cycle rads. Is having a larger reservoir recommended?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

G'D60 said:


> Thanks for the heads up Max. Do you think the core exchanger that Dowski is using is overkill? or is that size ideal? I'm looking at a core about half the size in height but with the same length. I imagine that would work better than dual motor cycle rads. Is having a larger reservoir recommended?


NP! The exchanger that Steph is using isn't overkill at all for what is building the car for (street and road racing). The exchanger he has makes the most of the available frontal space and that's as good as it's going to get for a single front-mounted exchanger. The exchanger dimension you're looking at is pretty decent (especially if it's one of the 2-4 inch thich ones), depending on how much fluid you allow the system to carry, it could be very efficient is done properly.

The reservoir size doesn't really matter, what is important is the total fluid capacity of the system. The more it is, the longer the fluid cycles will be, and the longer/more heat it will take to completely soak the fluid system. The drawback is extra weight to carry on a large-capacity system, and longer recovery period (if allowed to fully heat soak), but more fluid can somehow make up for undersized exchanger or poor airflow over them. Plan the system for the intended use and you won't need to have extra fluid capacity (again bringing us right back to seeking ideal exchanger(s) size and efficiency).


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

Good advice thank you.

My car is going to be a street car so guess its a good to bump up capacity.

My next question is what kind of fluid do I fill it with as 5 to 6 months out of year I have below freezing temperatures.

Also it was nice to see all your set ups.

Recommended size of coolant inlets?

Where did you source your cores and such.

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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> For the OP, here is the proper arrangement for the components (diagram taken from 'Maximum Boost' by C. Bell).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which way is the flow going in this diagram


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Clockwise! You always want the "in" of your pump to be feeding right from the "out" of the exchanger with cooled fluid and pumping it straight to the core (aim for the shortest possible line routing between the exchanger outlet and AWIC core inlet). :beer:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

[quote name="[email protected]" post=86835207]Awesome thank you. Also what is the difference between open and closed loop ?[/QUOTE]<br />
<br />
'Closed loop' as the name suggests, is having the fluid system sealed with an inline filler neck to fill the system. 'Open loop' will have some sort fluid/pressure bypass via an overflow/expansion reservoir with an external fluid dump. <br />
<br />
Some people seem to get away with closed loop AWIC systems, but when I tried it there was way too much heat and expansion for a pressurized radiator cap to handle alone. I found myself blowing fittings and ballooning the lines after the fluid system got fully soaked at the track. <br />
<br />
With an open loop system, everything stays under control:<br />
- System self-burbs if the overflow tank is high point<br />
- Expansion and pressure is well regulated regardless of how heated/pressurized the fluid becomes<br />
- There is no need to constantly replenished the system with fluid (and if smart, a low level fluid gauge can be retrofitted).<br/>


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

I know I'm asking a lot of questions sorry. 

OK I have my set like the above diagram with a reservoir. 

How to I go about plumbing in an expansion tank.

I dug threw your whole air charge cooling thread but couldn't quite see how you did it


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

It's easy, it just need to be inline at high point between the exchanger and the core. You already have a reservoir, so it just need to have overflow and pressure relief function (dumping excess pressure via a cap like a coolant system --- and overflow capability with an external fluid dump). 

The way I did it was with a second OEM coolant ball. Our coolant balls have all the features built in, just need to use a cap with lower pressure-relief threshold. If you look carefully in the old pic of my bay in this thread you'll see a pair of coolant balls on the left, one is engine coolant, the other is AWIC fluid. Hey... every man running AWIC in a TT should have a pair of balls. :laugh:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

Is see how did you go about fitting a second hose fitting to the tank


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Modify it! Drill and tap, then use an o-ringed nut on the inside, and finally use epoxy to secure it from possible external stress on the outside.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> It's easy, it just need to be inline at high point between the exchanger and the core. You already have a reservoir, so it just need to have overflow and pressure relief function (dumping excess pressure via a cap like a coolant system --- and overflow capability with an external fluid dump).
> 
> The way I did it was with a second OEM coolant ball. Our coolant balls have all the features built in, just need to use a cap with lower pressure-relief threshold. If you look carefully in the old pic of my bay in this thread you'll see a pair of coolant balls on the left, one is engine coolant, the other is AWIC fluid. Hey... every man running AWIC in a TT should have a pair of balls. :laugh:


I love all the innovative things you do and have done in your build. I'm not the first to mention this but omg your engine bay. 

Do you have any idea how hard it is to steal your ideas and make then look decent.


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> NP! The exchanger that Steph is using isn't overkill at all for what is building the car for (street and road racing). The exchanger he has makes the most of the available frontal space and that's as good as it's going to get for a single front-mounted exchanger. The exchanger dimension you're looking at is pretty decent (especially if it's one of the 2-4 inch thich ones), depending on how much fluid you allow the system to carry, it could be very efficient is done properly.
> 
> The reservoir size doesn't really matter, what is important is the total fluid capacity of the system. The more it is, the longer the fluid cycles will be, and the longer/more heat it will take to completely soak the fluid system. The drawback is extra weight to carry on a large-capacity system, and longer recovery period (if allowed to fully heat soak), but more fluid can somehow make up for undersized exchanger or poor airflow over them. Plan the system for the intended use and you won't need to have extra fluid capacity (again bringing us right back to seeking ideal exchanger(s) size and efficiency).


Whats the best radiator for our TT's or this setup in general? Is the 1'' thick radiator good enough since its a larger surface area or is the 2'' thick radiator better even though its smaller? Also, with the Frozen Boost kit is it wise to upgrade to the Bosch Cobra pump? How does one go about making sure they have ideal fluid capacity? Again, is that dependent on the size of the core or the radiator?


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

If I where you I would buy this kit I'm going to link. Frozen boost kits come with **** pumps. I am mounting the radiator in the lower portion of the bumper.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

http://www.votionspeed.com/servlet/the-949/TYPE-5-Water-to/Detail

I'm going to be running this kit with a reservoir behind the seat and a small filler/overflow reservoir under the hood.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

You can call them and have them switch our intercoolers of equal value if you want a different style


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)




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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

[email protected] said:


>


Not the best setup for decent power with those sharp 90s but I guess it's only a 180 crank horsepower..
Steve


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> Not the best setup for decent power with those sharp 90s but I guess it's only a 180 crank horsepower..
> Steve


With how short that setup is I don't think it's really an issue. The majority of FMIC setups usually involve some kind of 90 or even 180 bend. I wish I could do this on mine but my Holset sits above the valve cover so I wouldn't be able to have the same fitment. Looks like I'll be switching to a 225 manifold.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

sTT eV6 said:


> Not the best setup for decent power with those sharp 90s but I guess it's only a 180 crank horsepower..
> Steve


Its a little deceiving because you see all the bends in the system. With your traditional set up you always have a 90 at the intake manifold, exit from turbo and on the 225 in the charge pipe. This is leaving out all the other possible angles with a front mount. If you run an aftermarket intake manifold you get stuck with a cobra head.

This will out flow ANY air to air to intercooler. Not to mention the low pressure drop.

That's good enough for me.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> This will out flow ANY air to air to intercooler.


Blanket statements are interesting....I think what you meant to say was this core flows sufficiently for your power goals. :thumbup: Ignote comments from the V6 guy,, he thinks 1.8s are cute. :laugh:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2013)

20v master said:


> Blanket statements are interesting....I think what you meant to say was this core flows sufficiently for your power goals.  Ignote comments from the V6 guy,, he thinks 1.8s are cute.


Ya you are right ..my bad. And its all good I find dsg transmissions rather cute.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Ya you are right ..my bad. And its all good I find dsg transmissions rather cute.


So do I. 3 pedal FTW. :thumbup:


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

This isn't a willy waving contest, but about the most efficient AWIC available and best use of space.
Steve


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