# DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

I had some free time and all the necessary pics, so I put this little DIY together. Hope it's useful to someone.








*REPLACING TIMING CHAINS, TENSIONERS AND GUIDES ON A MKIV 12v VR6*
The following DIY outlines the procedure for replacing timing chain parts on a MKIV 12v VR6 engine.
*NOTE: If you are using this DIY to reinstall an upper chain and time the engine after a head rebuild or headgasket replacement (i.e., the head came off, but everything else was left in place), make sure to read the section pertinent to this topic in the DIY UPDATES at the end of the DIY!!!*
Since timing chains are considered by VW to be a "lifetime" item, there is no recommended mileage for the replacement (or even inspection) of timing chain parts. However, while timing chains _should_ realistically outlast the rest of the car, the design of the guides and tensioners used to keep the chains tight on a 12v VR6 is inadequate IMO. It is very common for guides and tensioners to fail (especially in older VR6 motors) as mileage approaches or passes 100k miles. Unfortunately, failed guides or tensioners may cause a chain to jump a tooth or more on a sprocket or may even cause a chain to snap. If either were to happen, serious damage to the engine would result as valves slam into pistons at high speed.
While there is no definitive indication that timing chain parts should be inspected and/or replaced, the most common sign of trouble is a rattling sound from the driver's side of the engine that occurs between 1000 and 1200 RPMs. This sound has been described most often as "marbles in a can" or like a sewing machine. Go to this thread to hear a sound clip of the timing chain noise that was present in my car, and eventually led to the writing of this DIY - Timing Chain Noise Thread. You can also download a video containing bad timing chain noise sent to me by dankvwguy HERE. Any noise similar to those in the clips in these threads should be considered suspect. When the timing chain parts are in good working order, the chains are under considerable tension and NOTHING should be loose enough to rattle. If you hear a rattling noise, and it's coming from one or more of the timing chain parts, it most likely indicates that these parts are either loose or broken and should be repaired ... or else!
The timing chain setup on a VR6 consists of an upper and lower chain. The upper chain connects the camshaft sprockets to an intermediate shaft sprocket (outer sprocket) and the lower chain connects a second intermediate shaft sprocket (inner sprocket) to the crankshaft sprocket. The camshaft sprockets have 27 teeth, the crankshaft sprocket has 24 teeth and the inner and outer intermediate shaft sprockets have 32 and 18 teeth, respectively. The ratio between the camshaft and outer intermediate sprockets is 3:2 (or 27:18) and the ratio of the inner intermediate shaft and crankshaft sprockets is 4:3 (or 32:24). This yields a ratio between the camshaft and crankshaft sprockets of 2:1 - i.e., the crankshaft rotates twice for every one rotation of the camshaft.
Each timing chain has a guide rail (curved on the upper chain, straight on the lower chain) and tensioner rail to keep them tight. The lower tensioner rail is a one-piece, spring-driven unit, while the upper tensioner is a two-piece design consisting of a tensioner rail and a separate tensioner bolt.
There are actually two versions of the upper timing chain setup. The early version used a double-row chain, a two-piece tensioner rail (phenolic plate(?) riveted to a metal backing) and a tensioner bolt that relies solely on oil pressure to apply force to the tensioner rail (the bolt has a bleed hole in the end to help regulate the amount of force applied). Because of an unusually high rate of wear of the upper tensioner rail (many are completely worn through the phenolic to the metal backing plate by 100k miles), the upper chain parts were replaced during the '97 model year with an "improved" setup consisting of a single-row chain, a single-piece, dense polymer tensioner rail and a tensioner bolt that uses both spring tension and oil pressure to apply force to the tensioner rail (spring tension extends the bolt to a minimum length, around 18mm, and then oil pressure extends the bolt to it's final position - this tensioner bolt does not have a bleed hole to regulate oil pressure). According to the ETKA CD, the switchover point between the older and newer upper chains setups is determined by engine production number and is as follows:
*old setup* - AAA engine #217000 and before
*new setup* - AAA engine #217001 and after
If you have an AAA VR6 and don't know where to look for the engine production number, then please read this THREAD.
The newer setup lasts considerably longer. When I replaced my timing chain parts at nearly 150k miles, the upper tensioner rail had grooves in it from the chain that were only a fraction of a mm deep. IMO, the rail would have easily last to 500k to 1M (million) miles based on how slowly it was wearing.








The lower chain parts are the same on all 12v VR6s - AFAIK, no changes to them have been made during the production of this engine.
The procedure below was based on a '99.5 MKIV Jetta GLS 12v VR6, which has the newer-style upper timing chain parts. While the older and newer upper parts are slightly different in both form and function, the procedure for replacing them is the essentially the same on all 12v VR6s. Therefore, the procedure below should be generally valid for any vehicle with a 12v VR6 engine. For those older VRs with EGR systems, you will have to deal with the removal of some EGR components from the top, rear of the engine in order to access the timing chains. Newer VRs do not have to worry about this however. If your VR has an EGR system, make sure to see the section devoted to this in the DIY UPDATES section at the end of the DIY. (Note: Torque specs given in this DIY are from the MKIV Bentley manual - these torque values may be slightly different on earlier model 12v VR6 engines.)
The procedure assumes that the transmission, clutch, flywheel, upper intake manifold and other small parts (coilpack, TB, airbox ...) have been removed from the car and that other steps necessary to remove these have also been performed (front end of car raised, battery disconnected, etc). The removal of these parts on a MKIV VR6 has been expertly documented by FaelinGL here - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2703042.
*NOTE: If you are only replacing the upper tensioner bolt and/or upper guide rail, you do not need to remove the transmission, clutch, flywheel, etc. You can replace this part by only removing the upper intake manifold (and other associated parts) and then following steps 1 through 20 below. To replace the upper tensioner bolt, you do not need to remove anything. Simply follow steps 10, 48 and 52 to remove and install the bolt.*
Please do the procedure at your own risk and be ready to make small adjustments while doing them. Also, please be observant while removing parts so that they go back together correctly. The procedure is fairly involved and extreme care should be taken while performing it. SEVERE engine damage WILL result if it is not performed correctly. Depending on how mechanically inclined you are, it should take somewhere between 2 and 8 hours to perform. 

The tools needed to perform the procedures are:
1) 10mm, 13mm, 15mm and 27mm sockets or wrenches
2) 5mm and 6mm hex sockets or wrenches
3) spark plug socket
4) large flathead screwdriver
5) torque wrench(es) valid for the range of 89 in-lbs to 74 ft-lbs.
6) VW camshaft locking tool (#3268) or 1/8" metal or dense plastic plate
7) RTV sealant (ultra-grey, sensor-safe)
8) pieces of wood for removing and installing rear main oil seal
9) container and oil

The VW part #s for the parts replaced in this DIY are:
* *021 109 503 D* - upper timing chain
* *071 109 513* - upper timing chain guide rail
* *021 109 509 E* - upper timing chain tensioner rail
* *021 109 507 B* - upper timing chain tensioner bolt (comes with copper crush washer N 013 827 1)
* *021 109 465 B* - lower timing chain
* *021 109 469* - lower timing chain guide rail
* *021 109 467* - lower timing chain tensioner rail
* *068 198 171* - rear main oil seal

*Note:* The above part #s for the upper timing chain parts are for the newer style parts. For the part #s valid for engines with the older style upper timing chain parts, refer to James' 12V VR6 headgasket/timing chain/cooling system parts list.
All of the above parts were purchased from http://www.vwparts.com and http://www.germanautoparts.com. Some parts were cheaper from one source while others were cheaper from the other. All parts that I received from these two vendors were OEM.

*Special thanks go to James (James 93SLC - luckily he had done this procedure before on his Corrado), Shashi (DJ-SBK) and Eric (BCDS2003T), for their help with the procedure.*

Let me know if you have any questions.
*As always, do this procedure at your own risk. I am not responsible for any mistakes in the below procedure or those that you make while performing it.*


_Modified by VgRt6 at 12:15 PM 10-13-2006_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*REMOVING OLD TIMING CHAIN PARTS* 
1. Unclip the fuel lines (yellow arrows) and rear knock sensor wire (red arrows) from the top of the valve cover, as shown in the picture below (this may not be necessary on all engines).









2. Loosen and/or remove the ten (10) 10mm bolts/nuts that secure the valve cover. On a MKIV, there are 8 captured bolts (yellow arrows in picture below) and 2 nuts on posts (red arrows in picture below). I believe that all ten are nuts on posts on other VR6 engines, but I may be wrong. Once the valve cover is unsecured, pull it up and off of the head, being careful not to damage the cover gasket (it will be reused).









3. The images below show the two camshafts. On the passenger's end are grooves that are used for timing the engine (yellow arrows) and on the driver's end are the camshaft sprockets and upper timing chain.

























*CAUTION: Once the valve cover is off, be careful not to drop any tools or small parts into the engine.*

4. Remove all six (6) spark plugs if you haven't already done so.
5. Crank the engine to Cylinder #1 TDC (top dead center) by slowly hand-turning the crankshaft pulley (red arrow in picture below) clockwise with a 27mm wrench or socket until the little notch on the inner flange of the pulley lines up with the timing mark on the block (yellow arrows in picture below).









*NOTE: When doing gross rotations of the crankshaft, always turn the crankshaft the same direction that it rotates when the engine is running (clockwise in the picture below). It's OK to rotate it the opposite way for small adjustments only.*

6. The picture below shows a close-up of the notch and timing mark that need to be lined up to set the engine at Cyl. #1 TDC.









7. Once the notch and timing mark are lined up, check the groove on the end of one of the camshafts. The groove should be above the centerline of the shaft - i.e., there should be more material below the groove (yellow arrow in the picture below) than above the groove (red arrow in picture below). If the opposite is true, then the camshafts are 180° out of phase. Rotate the crankshaft one full revolution and line up the notch and timing mark again to set the camshafts for Cyl. #1 TDC (remember, two rotations of the crankshaft equals one rotation of the camshafts).









8. If everything is lined up properly and the engine is at Cyl. #1 TDC, you should be able to slide the camshaft locking tool (VW tool #3268) into the grooves. Instead of using the VW tool, I just used two 1/8" thick pieces of Al plate (purchased at Lowe's) to lock each camshaft individually, as shown by the red arrows in the picture below. You can use pretty much any 1/8" thick metal or dense plastic plate for this purpose.









*NOTE: Since the MKIV VR6 has captured bolts that secure the valve cover, no holes need to be drilled in the plate(s) for them to slide into place. However, on earlier VR6s, holes will need to be drilled in the plates so that the plates will fit over the posts that the valve cover is secured to (the VW locking tool already has holes drilled in the necessary places). Also, if you do not use the VW camshaft locking tool, make sure to secure whatever you use so that it can not fall into the engine. The VW tool can not fall into the engine, but something smaller may be able to. I used packing tape attached to the Al plates and wrapped around the fuel lines to keep the plates from accidentally slipping into the block.*

9. If the engine is timed correctly, the camshaft tool(s) (VW or improvised) should slide into the groove easily and should be exactly parallel to it. The picture below shows that the gaps between the groove and tool on either side of the camshaft should be equal.









*NOTE: Leave the VW or other improvised camshaft locking tool in place in the camshaft grooves until instructed to remove it. This will keep the camshafts from rotating when the upper chain is removed, maintaining the correct valve timing.*

10. Remove the upper tensioner bolt (yellow arrow in the picture below) from the back edge of the upper timing chain cover using a 27mm wrench or socket.









*WARNING: Do NOT rotate the engine with the upper tensioner bolt removed. Doing so may cause the upper timing chain to jump a tooth or more and would throw off the engine timing. If you are replacing all of the timing chain parts, then this is no big deal since you'll be resetting the timing anyway. However, if you are only replacing the upper tensioner bolt and/or upper guide rail, messing up the timing may result in you having to remove the transmission, clutch, flywheel and lower timing chain cover in order to access and re-time the intermediate shaft.*

11. The picture below shows the newer style upper tensioner bolt. There should be a copper crush washer (blue arrow) present to seal the bolt against an oil leak. (*Note:* Even though the tensioner bolt and crush washer have separate VW part #s, the parts are one piece on the newer style tensioner.)









12. Remove the bolts that secure the upper timing chain cover. There are eight (8) 5mm hex bolts (yellow arrows in picture below) that secure the cover to the head and two (2) 6mm hex bolts (red arrows in picture below) that secure the upper and lower timing chain covers to each other (with part of the headgasket between them - this will be covered in more detail below).









13. Carefully pry the upper timing chain cover away from the head and lower timing chain cover. Be extra careful not to damage the part of the headgasket that extends out from beneath the head and between the two chain covers. This is critical since the headgasket will be reused (unless you are removing the head and will be replacing the entire gasket).
14. With the upper timing chain cover off, you should be able to see most of the upper timing chain parts, as shown in the picture below. The yellow arrows point to the two camshaft sprockets, which are secured to the camshafts with 15mm bolts. The blue arrow points to the shutter wheel on the rear sprocket that is used by the camshaft position sensor (this wheel may be slightly different on earlier model VR6s). The green arrow points to the upper guide rail and the red arrow points to the upper tensioner rail.









15. The picture below shows a close-up of my original upper guide rail. The yellow shading shows the location of a piece that broke off and was causing the rattling noise heard in the sound clip in the link above.

















16. If you are only replacing the upper guide rail, skip steps 17 through 19 and go directly to step 20. Otherwise, continue on with the next step (#17).
17. Remove the bolts that secure the lower timing chain cover. There are sixteen (16) 10mm bolts (yellow arrows in picture below) that secure the cover to the block and three (3) 5mm hex bolts (red arrows in picture below) that secure the lower timing chain cover to the oil pan. The blue arrows indicate the position of guide pins used to locate the cover when reinstalling it. *NOTE: It has been pointed out by ubercruizinvr6 that the lower part of the thermostat housing on pre-MKIV VR6s needs to be loosened/removed in order to remove the top front lower timing chain cover bolt (above the '01' in the picture below) - see pages 3 and 4 of this DIY thread and/or the DIY UPDATES section below for more info.*









18. Carefully pry the lower timing chain cover away from the block and oil pan. Again, be extra careful not to damage the part of the headgasket that extends out from beneath the head and between the two chain covers.
19. With the upper timing chain cover off, you should be able to see all timing chain parts, as shown in the picture below. The yellow arrow points to the part of the headgasket that normally resides between the two timing chain covers, but is now completely unprotected. Be extra careful not to damage/bend the gasket during the replacement procedure below.









20. Remove the upper guide rail by removing the two (2) 13mm bolts (yellow arrows in picture below) and then sliding the rail up and off of the lower guide post (red arrow in picture below). You do not need to remove the guide pin. (Note that the guide pin resides behind the lower chain cover - I suspect that VW used a guide pin instead of a bolt here so that the guide could be replaced without having to remove the lower cover, and consequently, the tranny, clutch, etc).









*NOTE: If you are only replacing the upper guide rail, perform step 29 and the appropriate portion of step 35 to install the new guide. Once the guide is installed, perform the engine timing check in steps 40 through 43. Finally, perform steps 48, 49 and 51 through 57 to reassemble everything.*

*TIP: I recommend that you label bolts as you remove them. Many of the bolts are diameter and length specific to a location and will not fit in other locations.*

21. The picture below shows the notch in the inner intermediate sprocket (red arrow) that should be visible when the intermediate shaft is timed correctly (MKIV Bentley step #7 and Figure #21 on page 15d-16). Also, the yellow arrow points to the piece of my upper guide rail that broke off and was rattling in between the block and the inner intermediate sprocket.

















22. In order to remove both the upper and lower timing chains, it is necessary to create some slack in the chains. The easiest way to accomplish this in both chains is to remove the intermediate sprockets. In the picture below, the yellow arrow points to the inner intermediate sprocket and the red arrow points to the outer intermediate sprocket. To remove the sprockets, remove the 15mm bolt (blue arrow in picture below)that secures the sprockets to the intermediate shaft. In order to do this, it is necessary to counterhold the crankshaft to keep it at Cyl. #1 TDC. You can use one of the special VW tools to do this, or you can just have a friend counter hold the crankshaft pulley with the 27mm wrench or socket and a long breaker bar. The intermediate shaft bolt is torqued on fairly tight (74 ft-lbs or 100 N-m), so it will take a good amount of force to loosen it. If the crankshaft accidentally moves slightly while loosening the bolt, turn the crankshaft back to Cyl. #1 TDC BEFORE removing the intermediate bolt and sprockets. (*Note:* Leave the camshaft locking tool in place while loosening the intermediate shaft bolt. As long as the crankshaft does not move significantly, there is no harm in leaving the tool in the camshaft grooves.)









23. Slide the outer intermediate sprocket off of the inner intermediate sprocket and then remove the upper chain from the camshaft sprockets. (Note that the inner and outer sprockets are keyed so that they will only fit together one way).
24. With the upper chain removed, the upper tensioner rail should fall down through the hole in the exposed headgasket, as indicated by the red arrow in the picture below. The tensioner rail pivots on a pin, which is indicated by the yellow arrow in the picture below.









25. To remove the upper tensioner rail, simply slide it off of the pivot pin, as indicated by the yellow arrows in the picture below. You do not need to remove the pivot pin.









26. Remove the lower tensioner unit by removing the two (2) 5mm hex bolts indicated by the yellow arrows in the picture below (the tensioner will fully extend when removed if you don't hold the rail and body together or secure it with a U-clip like the one that comes with a new tensioner).









27. Slide the inner intermediate sprocket off of the intermediate shaft (note that the shaft is also keyed so that the sprocket only goes on one way) and then remove the lower timing chain from the crankshaft sprocket. Finally, slide the lower guide rail off its guide pins, which are indicated by the red arrows in the picture above. You do not need to remove the guide pins.
28. All of the timing chain parts that need to be removed should now be removed.

















_Modified by VgRt6 at 4:01 PM 2-26-2005_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*INSTALLING NEW TIMING CHAIN PARTS*
29. Clean ALL of the mating surfaces of the timing chain covers, head, block and headgasket of oil and silicone gasket material. Examples of these areas are indicated by the red shading in the picture below. On a MKIV 12v VR6, there are two (2) 3mm holes in the headgasket right next to the head/block (yellow arrows in picture below). Remove any gasket material that is in these holes. Also be sure to clean out any oil from the central upper guide rail bolt hole (green arrow in picture below). Locking compound is used on this bolt to ensure that it does not back out and catch on the upper timing chain and it is critical that the bolt hole be clean and dry. Finally, the blue arrow in the picture below points to the oil feed hole for the upper tensioner bolt. Make sure that this hole is not clogged/blocked with gasket material (it shouldn't be, but check anyway)!









30. Before installing new timing chain parts, double check that the crankshaft is timed correctly. If the crankshaft is timed correctly, a ground tooth on the crankshaft sprocket (yellow arrow in the picture below) should line up exactly with the split in the main crankshaft bearing cap (red arrow in the picture below). This should be the case when the engine is at Cyl. #1 TDC (i.e., the notch on the crankshaft pulley and the timing mark on the block are lined up as shown in steps 5 and 6).









31. The picture below shows a close-up of the ground tooth (yellow arrow) and bearing split (red arrow). Note the difference between the ground tooth and the "normal" teeth adjacent to it (blue arrows).









32. Slide the inner intermediate sprocket onto the intermediate shaft and rotate the sprocket until the pointer in one of the sprocket holes (yellow arrow in the picture below) lines up exactly with the vertical mark on the intermediate shaft thrust washer behind the sprocket (red arrow in the picture below). The intermediate shaft is timed correctly when the pointer and washer mark are lined up. You can use the vertical mark either at the 6 o'clock position (as shown) or the 12 o'clock position. It doesn't matter - either will result in the engine being timed correctly. *Note:* The picture below was taken out of sequence, and as a result, shows the lower chain, outer intermediate sprocket, intermediate sprocket bolt, lower guide rail and upper guide rail already installed. They should not be installed at this point in the procedure. Please disregard this discrepancy between the text and photo.









33. Slide the new lower guide rail onto its guide posts (green arrows in picture below).









34. Install the new lower timing chain onto the crankshaft sprocket, slide it into the lower guide rail and then over the inner intermediate sprocket (blue arrow in picture above). Make sure that all of the slack is on the rear side of the chain and that the crankshaft and intermediate shaft timing marks are still lined up correctly. Next, install the new lower tensioner unit and torque the two tensioner bolts (red arrows in picture above) to 89 in-lbs (10 N-m). Finally, check again that the timing marks are lined up correctly and then remove the u-clip used to keep the tensioner fully compressed during installation (yellow arrow in picture). This will apply tension to the lower chain. *NOTE:* Be very careful not to accidentally pull the inner intermediate sprocket off of the intermediate shaft after the u-clip is removed or the lower tensioner will fully extend.

*TIP: If your lower tensioner is fully extended (as shown in the picture below), it needs to be fully compressed, or reset, before installation. To do this, use a small screwdriver or similar tool to slide the ratcheting mechanism in the hole in the tensioner body (red arrow in picture below) toward the pivot point between the body and tensioner rail and then push in on the rail (yellow arrows in picture below). Remember, if you let go of the rail it will fully extend again. Either hold it in place with a U-clip or by hand until it is installed.*









35. Slide the new upper tensioner rail onto its pivot pin (yellow arrow in picture below) and rotate the rail clockwise through the hole in the headgasket. Use a piece of tape or something similar to temporarily hold the rail in the upright position (remove the tape after the upper timing chain and outer intermediate sprocket have been installed). Next, install the new upper guide rail by sliding it onto it's guide pin (green arrow in picture below) and then installing the two (2) 13mm bolts (red and blue arrows in picture below). Use Loctite (blue - med. strength) on the central, shorter bolt (red arrow) and torque both bolts to 15 ft-lbs (20 N-m).









36. Install the upper timing chain across the two camshaft sprockets (the chain should be tight between them) and then down between the upper guide rail and tensioner rail and through the hole in the headgasket, as shown in the picture above. Next, install the outer intermediate sprocket (with the upper chain wrapped around it), making sure that the chain is still tight between the two camshaft sprockets, is tight against the upper guide rail and ALL slack is on the rear side of the chain adjacent to the tensioner rail. Remember that the sprocket is keyed and can only match up with the inner intermediate sprocket one way - it may be difficult to mate the inner and outer sprockets - do NOT move the lower chain assembly to get the sprockets to match up. Finally, check again to make sure that the timing marks are all lined up. If they are, install the intermediate shaft bolt (white arrow in picture above) and torque to 74 ft-lbs (100 N-m) - remember to counterhold the crankshaft again when doing this, as was done in step 22.
37. Remove the u-clip from the lower tensioner unit if you haven't already done so.
38. Check again to make sure that the timing marks are lined up (you can never do it enough times!







).
39. The new timing parts should now be correctly installed, as shown in the picture below.









40. Before sealing everything back up, it is a good idea to test out the timing of the engine. To do this, the upper timing chain cover and upper tensioner bolt need to be temporarily reinstalled. Reinstall the upper timing chain cover (be careful not to damage the headgasket) and secure it to the head with four (4) or more of the 5mm hex bolts (it's not necessary to use all eight of them). Next, install the upper tensioner bolt - thread it in fully and tighten it hand-tight (there's no need to torque it to full spec for this test).
41. Remove the cam locking tool (or plate(s)) from the grooves in the camshafts.
42. Using the 27mm wrench or socket, rotate the crankshaft clockwise two (2) full rotations and then line up the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley (notch on pulley and mark on block - see steps 5 and 6). This will cause the camshafts to rotate one (1) full rotation. If the engine is timed correctly, you should be able to slide the cam locking tool (or plate(s)) back into the grooves in the camshafts. If this does occur, then you've timed the engine properly and you can seal things up. Congratulations.







If this does not occur, then there is a problem with the engine timing. You'll either need to figure out what is wrong and fix it, or remove everything and start again from scratch.







If you've been checking the timing marks throughout the installation procedure as suggested, the engine will most likely be timed correctly.
43. Remove the upper tensioner bolt and upper timing chain cover.
44. Since the lower timing cover is off, it is a good idea to replace the rear main oil seal, especially if the engine has significant mileage on it or you noticed some oil leakage when the transmission was removed. If you are not going to replace the rear main seal, go directly to step 48.
45. To remove the old rear main seal (yellow arrow in picture below), support the lower timing chain cover with a few pieces of wood with the inside surface of the cover facing up, as shown below. Using a screwdriver or other similar tool and a hammer, carefully pound the old seal out of the cover. The old seal may be in there tight, so you may have to pound pretty hard to get it out. Be careful not to mar the mating surface of the timing cover or the new seal may not seal properly when installed. Just take you time and pay attention and it should come out without any problems.









46. To install the new rear main seal, flip the timing chain cover over, apply some oil to the mating surfaces of the cover and seal and then carefully pound the seal into the cover using a hammer and a wide board, as shown in the picture below. Move the board around the perimeter of the seal while pounding to make sure that the seal goes in straight. The seal is installed fully when the outer edge of the seal lines up with the outer edge of the cover (at this point the board will no longer pound the seal in any further, so it's pretty much idiot-proof).









47. The picture below shows the new seal installed in the lower timing chain cover. Also shown is a plastic insert (yellow arrow) that is provided with the seal to make the installation of the seal around the crankshaft flange easier when installing the lower timing chain cover. (We tried to use this piece when installing the cover, but it actually got in the way and kept popping out of the seal prematurely. We eventually gave up and just installed the lower cover without it without any problems.)









48. Before permanently installing the upper tensioner bolt, it is a good idea to bleed the air from it and fill it up with oil. Fill a coffee can or other container with about 4 inches of motor oil, as shown in the picture below. Place the tensioner bolt in the can with the plunger end down and the head end up (so that the feed hole is at the highest point). While submerged, press down on the bolt in the can to compress the plunger fully. This will force any air out of the tensioner. Release the tensioner while submerged to fill the tensioner with oil. Repeat this a few times until you're confident there is no more air in the tensioner. Leave the tensioner bolt in the oil until it's ready to be installed.









*NOTE: The above procedure is for the newer style tensioner only. To bleed the older style tensioner, insert a thing wire into the bleed hole in the end of the plunger to activate the check valve inside and then press down on the plunger to compress it fully. Some people like to extend the tensioner slightly so that there is some tension on the upper chain when the engine is started the first time. If you want to do this, submerge the tensioner in oil and pull out on the plunger. Doing so with the tensioner submerged will ensure that oil and not air fills the tensioner. Make sure you do not extend the tensioner too far or too much tension may be applied to the upper tensioner rail, causing premature wear. Use an iterative trial and error process to find the appropriate plunger length.*

49. Apply RTV sealant to the mating surfaces of the timing chain covers. These surface are what contact the red shaded areas in the picture below (don't forget about on top of the oil pan and on both the top and bottom of the headgasket. Use ultra-grey import RTV to seal the timing chain covers since it is O2 sensor-safe. Make sure that the oil feed hole for the upper tensioner bolt (yellow arrow in picture below) will not be clogged with RTV when the upper cover is installed.









50. Install the lower timing chain cover first. Apply some oil to the edges of the crankshaft flange and to the inner mating surface of the rear main seal. Carefully position the lower cover, using the guide pins to line it up correctly. As you slide the cover into place, make sure that the rear main seal is sliding onto the crankshaft flange correctly. There is a spring on the engine side of the seal that surrounds the ID and compresses the seal against the crankshaft flange. *You want to make sure that this spring remains in place as you slide the seal around the flange* (the plastic insert in the third picture above is supposed to assist with this, but it's not necessary to use it - some people also like to drop the oil pan to visually inspect that the spring remained in place during installation, but that is also not necessary). Go slowly and make sure it's done correctly ... the first time. Also, as you slide the lower cover into place, lift up on the headgasket in order to keep it from scraping all of the RTV off of the top edge of the cover. After the lower cover is in place and you're confident that the rear main seal is seated correctly and the RTV seal is sufficient, install the nineteen (19) bolts that secure the cover to the block and oil pan and torque them to 89 in-lbs (10 N-m). *NOTE: Make sure to tighten the three (3) lower cover-to-oil pan bolts (red arrows in Step 15) before tightening the sixteen (16) lower cover-to-block bolts or the seal between the lower cover and oil pan may leak.*
51. Next install the upper timing chain cover. Again be careful to avoid the headgasket scraping the RTV off of the bottom edge of the cover. It may somewhat difficult to install the upper cover due to engine brackets and the thermostat housing being in the way. I actually recommend that you practice maneuvering the upper cover into position BEFORE applying any RTV. This way you won't get RTV all over everything while trying to figure out how to get the upper cover in place. Once the cover is in place and you're confident that the RTV seal is sufficient, install the ten (10) bolts that secure the cover to the head and the lower timing chain cover. Torque the eight (8) 5mm hex bolts to 89 in-lbs (10 N-m) and the two (2) 6mm hex bolts to 18 ft-lbs (25 N-m). *NOTE: Make sure to tighten the two (2) upper cover-to-lower cover bolts (red arrows in Step 12) before tightening the eight (8) upper cover-to-head bolts or the seal between the upper and lower covers may leak.*
52. Remove the upper tensioner bolt from the container of oil, wipe it off and then install it in the rear edge of the upper timing chain cover. Torque to the bolt to 22 ft-lbs (30 N-m). (*Note:* The MKIV Bentley gives conflicting values for the tensioner bolt torque. In multiple places it lists it as 22 ft-lbs (30 N-m), but in one place it lists it at 30 ft-lbs (40 N-m). I'm not sure which one is actually correct, but either one would probably be OK. I torqued mine to 22 ft-lbs and have not had any problems.)
53. Remove the cam locking tool (or plate(s)) from the grooves in the end of the camshafts.
54. Reinstall spark plugs and torque to 18 ft-lbs (25 N-m).
55. Reinstall valve cover (make sure the valve cover seal fits correctly) and torque the ten (10) captured bolt or nuts to 89 in-lbs (10 N-m).
56. On a MKIV, reattach the fuel lines and rear knock sensor wire to the top of the valve cover.
57. That's it!











_Modified by VgRt6 at 11:14 PM 1-25-2006_


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*DIY UPDATES ...*

** 2/28/04* - CLICK HERE TO SEE PICS OF THE TIMING CHAIN PARTS I REMOVED DURING THE DIY (ALONGSIDE NEW PARTS)

_________________________________________________________________

** 8/2/04 - IMPORTANT INFO FOR THOSE REINSTALLING AN UPPER TIMING CHAIN AFTER A HEAD REBUILD OR HEADGASKET REPLACEMENT*
The following information is critical for timing the engine correctly when the upper chain has been removed and the lower timing chain, timing chain cover and tranny have not been touched. There has been some confusion recently during the reinstallation of heads and upper timing chains, and I hope this clears it up for everyone.







NOTE: This section does not apply is you are retiming the engine after replacing and/or reinstalling both timing chains, as described in the main part of the DIY above.
If possible, before removing the upper timing chain so you can remove the head, set the crank to Cyl. #1 TDC and don't rotate the engine until the head and upper timing chain have been reinstalled. If this is your situation, then the following information does not apply to you. Since this situation is not always possible (either the crank was not set to TDC before the upper chain was removed or the crank was turned with the upper timing chain disconnected), *before reinstalling the head and upper timing chain, you MUST make sure to rotate the crank until Cyl. #1 is at TDC AND and you can see the notch in the intermediate sprocket, as shown by the red arrow in the picture below.* 









If you do not do this, there is a strong possibility that when the upper timing chain is reinstalled, it will be one half of a tooth off relative to the lower timing chain. *To make sure that this situation does not arise, turn the crankshaft until Cyl. #1 is at TDC and then check for the notch in the intermediate shaft. If it is not visible, turn the crankshaft another revolution and check again for the notch. Repeat the process until the crankshaft is at TDC AND you can see the notch in the intermediate sprocket.* You may have to rotate as much as 3+ revolutions (4 would get you back to your starting place) in order for both to occur simultaneously. The amount of crankshaft revolution necessary will depend on how far off the crankshaft was from TDC or how much the crankshaft was rotated with the upper timing chain disconnected.
The reason that the above procedure is necessary is due to the fact that the 4 timing sprockets (crank, inner intermediate, outer intermediate and camshaft (2)) do not have the same number of teeth. As a result, a full rotation of the crank sprocket does not produce one full rotation in the other sprockets. The impact of this is that setting the crankshaft to Cyl. #1 TDC does not always simultaneously set the intermediate sprocket to the correct position for the reinstallation of the upper timing chain. If you want to read a more detailed explanation of why this is a problem, check out the following thread - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1406495. Here are some posts of mine from that thread for the curious, but lazy ...

_"Setting the intermediate shaft to the correct position is a critical part of the timing process and is something that not everyone who tries to do the job realizes. The position of the intermediate shaft is critical since it has two sprockets on it with a different number of teeth. If the inner intermediate sprocket is off by one tooth (relative to the crankshaft), then the outer intermediate shaft is off by a fraction of a tooth. This fraction is what messes up the relationship between the intermediate shaft and the camshafts. If both sprockets on the intermediate shaft had the same number of teeth, then it's position in the timing process wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, in order to have the 2:1 crankshaft-to-camshaft rotation ratio and to have sprockets of reasonable diameters, the VW engineers had to make the two intermediate sprockets different sizes."_
_____
_"Since the crankshaft has 24 teeth, rotating the crankshaft 360° will cause 24 teeth on the inner intermediate sprocket to rotate 24 teeth. The inner inter. sprocket has 32 teeth, therefore, the inner intermediate sprocket will rotate 3/4 of a turn or 270°. If the inner inter. sprocket rotates 270°, then the outer inter. sprocket must also rotate 270°. The outer inter. sprocket has 18 teeth, 270° (or 3/4 of a turn) of which is 13.5 teeth. If the outer inter. sprocket rotates 13.5 teeth, then the camshafts will rotate 13.5 teeth. This make sense since the camshafts have 27 teeth and two rotations of the crank (720°) will cause the cams to rotate one full rotation, or 27 teeth.
Notice that the camshafts do not rotate by an integer number of teeth when the crankshaft is rotated 360°. Instead, it rotated by something plus 1/2 of a tooth."_
_____
_"Timing the engine starting with both chains off is actually much easier to do (and to understand) than what blownmk2vr6 is trying to do (installing the upper chain after taking the head off). When the chains are off, all you have to do is line up the three marks separately and then put the chains on. If one of the chains is on (most likely the bottom chain), then you also need to understand the relationship between the sizes of the different sprockets. Since they all have a different number of teeth, one full rotation of one shaft does not produce one full rotation of another shaft. Take the crankshaft and inner intermediate sprockets for example (this will help explain what happened to blownmk2vr6). The crank sprocket has 24 teeth and the inner inter. sprocket has 32 teeth. Because of the 3:4 ratio in the number of teeth, the crankshaft has to be rotated FOUR times to have both the crankshaft sprocket and inner intermediate shaft sprocket end up in the same configuration as before starting (a full 96 teeth have to pass - 24*4=96 and 32*3=96). If you only rotate the crankshaft one full rotation, the inner intermediate sprocket will be 90° off (cams will be 1/2 tooth off). If you rotate it twice, the inner intermediate sprocket will be 180° off (cams will line up due to both inner and outer intermediate sprockets having an even number of teeth). If you rotate it three times, the inner intermediate sprocket will again be at 90° off, but in the other direction (cams will be 1/2 tooth off). After the fourth rotation of the crankshaft, the intermediate will be at 360° and everything will line up (cams will line up).
A similar relationship exists between the camshaft sprockets and the outer intermediate sprocket. Their ratio is 27:18 or 3:2. Therefore, it requires TWO full rotations of the camshafts to have the camshafts and intermediate shaft end up in the same configuration as before starting (a full 54 teeth have to pass - 27*2=54 and 18*3=54). If you only rotate the camshafts one full rotation, then the outer intermediate sprocket will be 180° off. After the second rotation of the camshafts, the outer intermediate sprocket will be at 360° and everything will line up. This relationship is not as important to understand as the one between the crankshaft and intermediate shaft since it's unlikely that only the upper chain would be on the engine. It's very likely to have only the lower chain attached though since headwork and a headgasket job only requires that the upper chain be removed."_

_________________________________________________________________

** 2/17/05 - IMPORTANT INFO FOR REMOVING THE LOWER TIMING CHAIN COVER ON PRE-MKIV VR6s*

_Quote, originally posted by *ubercruizinvr6* »_on an A3 VR6, the thermostat cover part of the thermostat housing has to be removed in order to remove the lower timing chain cover. There is a bolt that is around 2.5 to 3" long that must be removed, and theres really no way around it without pulling that t-stat cover. so, may want to have some G11/G12 and water handy if you're about to attempt the job.

The picture below (courtesy of ubercruizinvr6) shows the location of the bolt that is blocked by part of the T-stat housing on pre-MKIV VR6s. The section of the T-stat housing that must be removed is shown two pictures below.

















_________________________________________________________________

** 5/26/05 - IMPORTANT INFO FOR PERFORMING THIS DIY ON OLDER VRs WHICH HAVE EGR SYSTEMS*
The following write-up outlines how to deal with the EGR system on older VRs when replacing timing chains. Thanks to A2B4guy (Jeff) for putting this together and sending it to me. It's a great addition to this DIY. Remember though, if you have any questions about it, make sure to IM him and not me. It will only make my head spin.









_______

The manner in which the EGR system impacts a timing chain service procedure is by complicating the removal of the upper intake manifold and valve cover. So early in your repair sequence you will need to deal with the EGR system. It would be a smart idea to inspect the EGR ports and tubing for heavy buildup or clogs and clean as warranted while the system is apart. 
First let's take a look at the overall EGR installation on the motor. 









The EGR assembly bolts to the driver's rear corner of the valve cover. It has a tube connected to the intake manifold and another tube connected to the exhaust manifold. It also has a vacuum solenoid and some wiring to operate the system. 









As you are unbolting the intake manifold, you will have to also disconnect the EGR connection by unthreading the compression nut on the tube coming from the EGR valve. Then as you try to lift the manifold away, you must slide it off of the tube. 









To remove the valve cover, you will have to unbolt the EGR assembly from it. It is attached using two 10mm hex head bolts that go through a wiring harness support as well as the EGR bracket. You can see one of the bolts in the pic, the other is behind the vacuum hose. 









As you can see, you will need to disconnect the engine wiring in the upper area so that the harness can be folded back to the driver's side out of your way. 









There is very little room so you will have to use the open end of your 10mm wrench to back these two bolts out together a little at a time. There are also two bolts holding the valve to the bracket, but they are no piece of cake either and they would open a gas seal at the intake tube. So stick with the two bolts up front. 
At this point the system is being held only by the tube that connects the bottom of the valve to the exhaust manifold. If your repair job does not include removing the head or exhaust manifold, then you can leave this tube connected. You may possibly have to loosen one end of it so that it might swing back away from the valve cover a little bit. 









The valve cover can be removed now. If you need to actually remove the EGR valve, first disconnect the vacuum hoses and electrical plugs if not already done. Mark the hoses or make notes to help you reconnect them to the right places later. Then remove the exhaust tube. 









Here is the back corner of the motor sans EGR. 









This is the EGR assembly as I removed it from my car. 









With the EGR system disconnected or out of the way, you can swing the engine harness back up behind the motor if that will get it out of your way. Be very careful handling the wiring. Engine heat makes wires brittle and you get insulation cracks like this one. 









You will notice that I have covered most of my harness with pieces of nylon split loom. The original friction tape wrapping was crumbling into dust and the wiring was in danger. This should be done to prevent having to buy a new engine harness sometime later. Remember that a used harness is going to be old and dry too! 
For reassembly, you will first want to get the valve cover installed and tightened. Then you can bolt the EGR bracket to the VC. Put the two bolts first through the harness guide plate and then the EGR bracket before threading into the VC. It is amazing how tedious this is, trying to get both bolts started without dropping them and then going only a turn or two at a time on each. Eventually you will get them in and tightened. Limit the torque to about 10 lb-ft. 
At this point reinstall the exhaust tube if it was removed, or tighten it if loosened. As you begin to install the upper intake, you will have to slide the EGR fitting over the intake tube _before_ engaging the other manifold mounting points. The tube cannot be flexed into place afterward. 









This leaves only the electrical plugs and vacuum lines to connect to the EGR. These can be connected along with the other connections in that area at your convenience. Use zip ties to tie the harness to the support bracket as shown in the first several pictures.


_Modified by VgRt6 at 7:50 AM 5-26-2005_


----------



## JettaVR6power (Oct 30, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Nice! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif This definitely needs to go in the FAQ section. Three beers for this one!


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## MigAce312 (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

WOW!!! Thats gotta be the holy grail of timing chain write-ups....Awesome job man! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jmunk (Aug 3, 2003)

Very nice. I'm not afraid of doing the job like how i was before. How much did you spend in parts and how long did it take you to do this ?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Jmunk)*

It took about 4-5 hours to do everything in the DIY. Unfortunetely, the work that is not covered in the DIY to get to the chain covers (i.e., removing the tranny) takes a lot longer and is more difficult. Removing the tranny has got to be one of the most difficult things to do on a car!








Here's what I paid for the parts and where I got it from ...

Adirondack Auto Brokers
Upper timing chain - $39.00
Lower timing chain - $29.00
Lower tensioner unit - $39.75

Impex Foreign Auto Parts
Upper guide rail - $13.40
Upper tensioner rail - $8.54
Upper tensioner bolt - $25.50
Lower guide rail - $4.65
Rear main seal - $12.07

The total for all the parts was $171.91 plus shipping (and tax if you live in either NY or MD).
Gary


_Modified by VgRt6 at 6:52 PM 2-28-2004_


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## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

do you do this with the motor out of the cars?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (StreetRyda)*

You can do it with the engine in or out of the car. It should be obvious from the pics that I did it with the engine in the car.
Gary


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## Bimmer Beater (Feb 28, 2004)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

WOW!!! What an AWESOME thread!!! Thanx for the info and great pix. I've gotta ask, though, as I'm not too computer saavy, how'd you the arrows, see-through highlights, and how do you insert a picture in your signature for threads? Thanks.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Bimmer Beater)*

Thanks.
IM sent.
Gary


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## Dansk Ventoe (Sep 30, 2002)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Thank you.
-Joe


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## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Special thanks go to James (James 93SLC - luckily he had done this procedure before on his Corrado), Shashi (DJ-SBK) and Eric (BCDS2003T), for their help with the procedure.

Aww shucks








Nice writeup Gary.
You left out the step about cursing the tranny mount bracket bolts









Highlight of my winter










_Modified by James 93SLC at 7:39 PM 1-6-2008_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (James 93SLC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *James 93SLC* »_
Aww shucks









You say that now, but wait until the pics of you wearing the VR6 timing chain bling bling get posted!










_Quote, originally posted by *James 93SLC* »_
Nice writeup Gary.
You left out the step about cursing the tranny mount bracket bolts









I'm saving all of the ranting for the tranny/clutch DIY. Stupid 3" of Loctite ... on one bolt!!!










_Quote, originally posted by *James 93SLC* »_Highlight of my winter









Mine too.


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## SilberArrow6 (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (James 93SLC)*

Awesome Gary! When the time comes...
Congrats on your anniversary btw! Mine's June 6th.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (SilberArrow6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SilberArrow6* »_Awesome Gary! When the time comes...
Congrats on your anniversary btw! Mine's June 6th.


Thanks. Congrats to you too.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Wow, what a post







I can't imagine the work you put into this post, on top of the actual work on your car. 
Question for you, I don't think I have any timing chain noise to speak of on my 95 VR. I've heard before and read in your post here that you can do the upper guide rail without removing the tranny, etc. I've thought about doing this just as a preventative thing, and also to see how my guides/rails are wearing. Would this be worth it/a good idea? It's the old-style tensioner _rail_ that was prone to fail, not the guide, is there a difference in the old guide?
Thanks







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mhjett)*

The older style upper tensioner rail is definitely the part that is most prone to failure. However, the design of the upper guide rail is poor as well and can also fail. On newer setups where the upper tensioner rail is a lot more robust than the old design, IMO it's the upper guide rail that most likely to fail. The design of the upper guide rail is not very good IMO and unfortunately it hasn't ever been changed - the old and new versions are exactly the same. VW did change the part# recently from 021 109 513 to 071 109 513, but as far as I know they look exactly the same.
Check out these pics of my old timing chain parts. My old upper guide rail is an absolute mess! - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1264688
That being said, it's up to you as to whether you should check/change the upper guide rail. Replacing it can't hurt, but if it's not making any noise, then why bother? If you have some extra time and feel like you need to take something apart, then go for it. Otherwise, do nothing and consider yourself lucky that you have no timing chain noise ... yet.
Gary


_Modified by VgRt6 at 1:27 AM 2-29-2004_


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## SleepyTT (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Good Job, VgRt6....
Very good guide for when i change my Timing chains in March when its 60 outside.


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## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

was anything remove to make it EZ to get around


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (StreetRyda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StreetRyda* »_was anything remove to make it EZ to get around

Once the transmission and the parts near it are out of the car (necessary to get to the lower timing chain cover), there is plenty of room to do the job.
Gary


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## Benbuilt4u (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (VgRt6)*









this seal guide actually works flawlessly when used correctly in this picture you have it on backwards.
Good write up. to date Ive done 15 of them for people. Ive ordered the most chain guides from any one dealer in the country. oh and i don't use rtv it'll seep eventually i use the VW oil pan glue. the white stuff it works flawlessly and was meant for the same application. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Benbuilt4u)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Benbuilt4u* »_








this seal guide actually works flawlessly when used correctly in this picture you have it on backwards.


Oops. Thanks for the correction.







That explains what happened.
Anyway, it went on in no time without it. It may help out, but isn't necessary.
Gary


_Modified by VgRt6 at 10:28 AM 2-29-2004_


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## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Post of the decade!


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## gholland93 (Apr 21, 2002)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

In your picture number 12, I beleive, to access the timing chain cover, this might be a dumb question but aren't the coilpack, some hoses, thermostat housing removed?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (gholland93)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gholland93* »_In your picture number 12, I beleive, to access the timing chain cover, this might be a dumb question but aren't the coilpack, some hoses, thermostat housing removed?

That's correct, except that the thermostat housing doesn't need to be removed.
This DIY only covers the actual replacement of the chain parts, not the steps necessary to access the valve and timing chain covers. That's why I put this statement in the introduction ...

"The procedure assumes that the transmission, clutch, flywheel, upper intake manifold and other small parts (coilpack, TB, airbox ...) have been removed from the car and that other steps necessary to remove these have also been performed (front end of car raised, battery disconnected, etc). The removal of these parts on a MKIV VR6 will be covered in detail in a separate DIY - a link to this DIY will be posted here when it is finished."

Gary


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## MacDalund (Jun 30, 2003)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Again, my favorite vortexer Gary!


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## Griffy (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Holy crap! Whatta post! Awesome. Great. Awesomely great. 
Many, many thanks. I actually think I can do this myself now. 
God, sometimes I just love the Vortex. <sniff> 
--Griff


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## Viking (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Griffy)*

WOW!







Thanks so much for taking the time to document all this and post it up here. This should for sure be in the FAQ's up top. Nice work, excellent pictures, and great detail. Thank you thank you THANK YOU!!!!


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## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VikingVR6GTI)*

Great post.. i'm gonna mirror this on my site


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## GTIVR6PL (Nov 26, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VikingVR6GTI)*

Yet another *great* write up from Gary, thats a lot of writing and work, thanks a lot man, your write ups helped plenty to many, myself included, great job! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (GTIVR6PL)*

Thanks.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Slayer)*

TTT


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Bump.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Bump for those who missed it earlier this week.


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## Risky GTI (Nov 11, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

This is absolutely w/o a doubt the best DIY post I have ever read.
Well done.


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## mavric (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Risky GTI)*

is there gonna be a tranny removal one soon?


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## IBD12NV (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

man that is one very nice write-up. great job!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mavric)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mavric* »_is there gonna be a tranny removal one soon?

There will be at some point. I have all the necessary pics and lots of notes. I just need to find the time to do it. The DIY will be MKIV specific, but should also help everyone else out as well.
Gary


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

TTT


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## Roanzz (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I had seen it and knew it was good, but I finally took the time to read the whole thing (don't feel like doing any work today)
DAMN!!!! THIS IS SO HOT. So much better than the Bentley instructions.
Thanks, Will be doing this in a couple of mounths.
Also, any word on the tranny removal DIY???


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Roanzz)*

The tranny DIY will be up as soon as I can find some free time. I started a new job right after putting the timing chain DIY together and have no more free time.







I n other words, I haven't started on the tranny DIY yet.







It should be up by the time you do your though.
Gary


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## vr6Cop (Jun 1, 2000)

Gary thanks for the timing chain DIY. Mine have been rattling for a while, but I've been too busy/skeered to do it. I figure if I can do a set of cams with just a Bentley, I can do this with your DIY







Looks like I have some work to do pretty soon


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## COCOTASO (Jan 16, 2002)

*Re: (vr6Cop)*

This is the greatest post ever.


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## kreuzer (May 20, 2001)

*Re: (COCOTASO)*

WOW WOW WOW!!! What an incredible thread . Thank you so much for taking the time to snap pictures and out this together. Now I can do this myself!!!
I have a question pertaining to the timing mark and the possibility of the cams being 180 degrees out of phase...My motor is in apart at the moment with the head being separated from the block and no cams in the head. It is out of the car. If I install the head, and If I line up the timing mark on the block at the crank pulley. and put in the cams, lining them up with the aluminum plates, logic tells me that everything should be fine. 








Because the crank is at the proper position, I assume the pistons would be in the same place if I did another rotaion of the crank to that spot again....tell me if I'm ok with my logic.
Thanks!


_Modified by kreuzer at 6:09 AM 4-9-2004_


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (kreuzer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kreuzer* »_WOW WOW WOW!!! What an incredible thread . Thank you so much for taking the time to snap pictures and out this together. Now I can do this myself!!!
I have a question pertaining to the timing mark and the possibility of the cams being 180 degrees out of phase...My motor is in apart at the moment with the head being separated from the block and no cams in the head. It is out of the car. If I install the head, and If I line up the timing mark on the block at the crank pulley. and put in the cams, lining them up with the aluminum plates, logic tells me that everything should be fine. 








Because the crank is at the proper position, I assume the pistons would be in the same place if I did another rotaion of the crank to that spot again....tell me if I'm ok with my logic.
Thanks!

_Modified by kreuzer at 6:09 AM 4-9-2004_


You are correct. All you have to do is make sure that the three timing marks/conditions are set before putting the chains on. Set the crank pulley to the mark - this will set the pistons at the correct positons. Put the cams on a rotate them until the plate slides in the end of the shaft - this sets the valves at the correct positions. Finally, make sure the intermediate sprocket is aligned with the timing mark - this does not affect the valve or piston position, but makes sure that the chains will line up with the teeth on the camshaft and crankshaft sprockets correctly.
The only problem I see (but am not sure since I've never had my head off) is that it may be difficult/impossible to rotate the cams into position with the head on the block and the block at #1 TDC. It makes sense to me to install the cams on the head with the head off of the block and then install the head/cams afterwards.
Gary


----------



## corpsedub (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

outstanding write..give me confidence to do this myself!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vwmk1gti (Apr 29, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Great write up


----------



## DIRTYSOUTHDUBS (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

i fallowed this diy and did this job myself i am a lil bit wrench freindly and it worked out great and saved me 1500.00 bux thanx bro you are the man


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (DIRTYSOUTHDUBS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DIRTYSOUTHDUBS* »_ i fallowed this diy and did this job myself i am a lil bit wrench freindly and it worked out great and saved me 1500.00 bux thanx bro you are the man

Glad to hear that the DIY actually works! Thanks for the reply.
Gary


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## roland98gti (Jan 29, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

GREAT JOB ON WRITE UP JUST LOST #5 EXHAUST VALVE HEAD AT 6500 RPM DUE TO AUTOTECHS SPORT VALVE SPRINGS PUT 2 INCH HOLE IN PISTON AND RUINED ENTIRE ENGINE DON'T KNOW IF LIFT WAS TOO MUCH OR SPRINGS ARE CRAP GOING WITH SCHRICKS NOW SHOULD HAVE SPENT THE MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (roland98gti)*


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

TTT ... want to keep this in current threads.








Gary


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## VR6 Mk3 (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Amazing write-up, this will help me out a lot http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aceclimber722 (Sep 6, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VR6 Mk3)*

Thank you VgRt6.


----------



## airmaster (May 8, 2004)

Thanks for all the good input. I ripped the head off of my 130k vr6 and found the reveted timing chain tensioner through the metal backing. Looks like I have to fix that schreech in the clutch as well. Anyone got any ideas on where I can get a good set of mid-range to top end cams?
Airmaster


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: (airmaster)*

Make it a STICKY http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## b3wagon (Aug 9, 2003)

*Re: (nuugen)*

wow- awesome job guys
nice sound clip link aswell
gotta make this sticky


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## vwmk1gti (Apr 29, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Great Post


----------



## VR6 Oh my (Jan 6, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (vwmk1gti)*

AWESOME post Gary! I just got my 95 GTI and it's my first VR6...and of course i had already heard about the possible timing chain issues i'd run into. I'm happy to say that i don't have any at the present (114k) but i'm sure i'll be hanging onto this car for quite some time...and will end up doing the chains at one point or another...
This needs to be a sticky for sure...thanks again Gary!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VR6 Oh my)*

Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Gary


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## billiethebutcher (Sep 24, 2002)

how long did it take you to pull the trans and rip and tear into the car.. start to finish...


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (billiethebutcher)*

It took us about 4 days working on it part time (included a full Saturday and an almost full Sunday). I figure it was about 20 hours start to finish. We we learning as we went a long though, so it would have taken us less time. Also, it took us over 2 hours just to remove three bolts from the driver's side tranny mount (specific to the MKIV). There was 2-3" of loctite on each bolt and we could only turn the bolts with a 3' breaker bar 30-45° at a time.







Replacing the chains was only about 3-4 hours and removing engine bay parts and replacing them was only about 6 hours or so, so removing the tranny was the biggest part (about half of the time).
Gary


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## VWDrvrsWtd (Feb 25, 1999)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Fantastic write-up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
To the top it goes.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (VWDrvrsWtd)*

Bump so it doesn't get archived ...








Gary


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## vadimsel (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

I'm sorry, but it mentioned that you have audio file with the noise that bad timing chain produce. I didn't find it. Can you put the link again?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (vadimsel)*

http://www.agthompsonfamily.co...e.wma 
Right click on the above link and select *Save Target As*.
Gary


_Modified by VgRt6 at 3:50 PM 7-19-2004_


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Bump for a good thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (DHill)*

I just added some important info for those using this DIY to reinstall an upper timing chain after a head rebuild or headgasket replacement to the DIY UPDATE section and the end of the DIY. Make sure to read this section before attempting to do this.
Gary


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

bump for this great post, about to do this on my car...


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## a2vr6cti (Aug 7, 2004)

*Re: (mhjett)*

great post. thanks VgTr6


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## Scrubby_4 (Aug 5, 2004)

*Re: (a2vr6cti)*

Cliff what are you looking at this for.....???


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## inopias (Jan 30, 2004)

*Re: (Scrubby_4)*

ttt


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## mkIII GTI VDUB (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: (inopias)*

thanx for the great post figured it out in the time i takes u to figure out all this in the bently and do it and put it back to gether ,you can use this 1 and install cams in the same amount of time kill 2 birds with 1 stone i love it thanx for the huge time save and money saver!!!!


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (mkIII GTI VDUB)*

You're welcome.








Gary


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## KIEZERJOSE (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Bump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif good pics man


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## L33TX43RT (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (KIEZERJOSE)*

THere should've been a 'sticky' on this thread, ages ago...


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## Euro_Parts (Jul 13, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (L33TX43RT)*

Just pointed towards this thread!!! VERY VERY handy!!!! I gotta use the 'search' more lol http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif





















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SLC4EVER (Oct 7, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (L33TX43RT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *L33TX43RT* »_THere should've been a 'sticky' on this thread, ages ago...









Check the FAQ, there is a link in there already.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Duzz (Mar 4, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (SLC4EVER)*

is it necessary to remove the upper tensioner bolt if your only replacing the upper guide rail?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Duzz)*

Yes. You need to remove the upper timing chain cover to replace the upper guide and you'll need to remove the tensioner bolt before removing the upper cover.
Gary


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Just did the chains and a clutch following these instructions a few weeks ago. Thanks man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif It went great, only problem is an oil leak now







Need to look at it further....


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mhjett)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Gary


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## swifty (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Hey Gary. I'm not sure if you can help, but I think I followed your directions (as best I could) when re-installing my head after a head gasket replacement (which lowered my compression to 8.5:1 for a 15psi supercharger system). The first time, I installed the timing chain incorrectly (most likely 1/2 a tooth off) and, when I started the car, the chain was audibly clanking loudly and the engine seemed like it wanted to jump out of the engine bay (like a flopping fish out of water







). Then I re-aligned the timing chain making sure the engine was at cyl #1 TDC (by matching up the nick in the crank pulley with the little line on the block) and made sure the notch in the intermediate sprocket was showing. 
The car now runs as smoothly as it had before the head gasket replacement but it seems to be overheating after running for 3-5 minutes (but does not over heat at idle...only after the throttle pushes the engine over 2K rpm a couple of times







) because coolant is being spewed from the overflow tanks pressure release holes. I checked for visible leaks and did not see any steam leaking from anywhere accept the coolant overflow tank. The Bentley said that a poorly timed engine will cause over heating. Do these symptoms sound like I screwed up my timing? If so, is there a suggestion beyond what you have already wrote to correct it. If it does not seem like the timing, can you recommend a place to get a coolant pressure testing tool? or can you think of any other suggestions? 
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


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## zero666cool (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (swifty)*

great post, really helpful, so those upper and lower chains are the only chains available? My VR6 makes some chain noise too, it is not too bad, but I was wondering whether I should fix the problem by changing the guides only or should I change the chains too? I'm not sure how many miles does the engine have, since I picked it up as MK2 VR6, but the previous owner said something like 70 k or something around it.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (swifty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *swifty* »_Hey Gary. I'm not sure if you can help, but I think I followed your directions (as best I could) when re-installing my head after a head gasket replacement (which lowered my compression to 8.5:1 for a 15psi supercharger system). The first time, I installed the timing chain incorrectly (most likely 1/2 a tooth off) and, when I started the car, the chain was audibly clanking loudly and the engine seemed like it wanted to jump out of the engine bay (like a flopping fish out of water







). Then I re-aligned the timing chain making sure the engine was at cyl #1 TDC (by matching up the nick in the crank pulley with the little line on the block) and made sure the notch in the intermediate sprocket was showing. 
The car now runs as smoothly as it had before the head gasket replacement but it seems to be overheating after running for 3-5 minutes (but does not over heat at idle...only after the throttle pushes the engine over 2K rpm a couple of times







) because coolant is being spewed from the overflow tanks pressure release holes. I checked for visible leaks and did not see any steam leaking from anywhere accept the coolant overflow tank. The Bentley said that a poorly timed engine will cause over heating. Do these symptoms sound like I screwed up my timing? If so, is there a suggestion beyond what you have already wrote to correct it. If it does not seem like the timing, can you recommend a place to get a coolant pressure testing tool? or can you think of any other suggestions? 
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.









It sounds to me like the engine is timed correctly. My guess is there might be a problem with the new HG, but I'm not positive. I don't think I can be much help on this one unfortunately. I'd start a new thread about this - most of the knowledgeable VR6 guys probably don't visit this thread all that often.
Gary


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (zero666cool)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zero666cool* »_great post, really helpful, so those upper and lower chains are the only chains available? My VR6 makes some chain noise too, it is not too bad, but I was wondering whether I should fix the problem by changing the guides only or should I change the chains too? I'm not sure how many miles does the engine have, since I picked it up as MK2 VR6, but the previous owner said something like 70 k or something around it.

I'd say it would depend on what type of chain setup your engine has. Can you find and post the engine code and production number? If it's an AAA engine, it will be on the passenger side of the intake manifold behind the fuel lines. If it's an AFP, it will be on the back of the intake manifold. I'm not sure where the BDF engine number is located. If you have an AAA engine with a production number of 217000 or lower, then you have the older double-chain setup. I'd consider replacing everything in these case. If you have an AAA #217001 or later, AFP or BDF, then you may be able to get a way with only replacing a guide.
Gary


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## zero666cool (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_
I'd say it would depend on what type of chain setup your engine has. Can you find and post the engine code and production number? If it's an AAA engine, it will be on the passenger side of the intake manifold behind the fuel lines. If it's an AFP, it will be on the back of the intake manifold. I'm not sure where the BDF engine number is located. If you have an AAA engine with a production number of 217000 or lower, then you have the older double-chain setup. I'd consider replacing everything in these case. If you have an AAA #217001 or later, AFP or BDF, then you may be able to get a way with only replacing a guide.
Gary

Thanks, actually I don't know what the engine code is on this, I think the engine is out of a corrado, but it used to have a 97 jetta engine? So the chain position differs on differ engine codes? I thought they are all on the driver side, hmm, there is a metal cover covering the chain right?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (zero666cool)*

All VR6s have the chains on the driver's side covered by two metal covers. What differs between the engines is the upper chain (single or double row), upper tensioner rail and upper tensioner bolt.
Gary


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## swifty (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_ 
It sounds to me like the engine is timed correctly. My guess is there might be a problem with the new HG, but I'm not positive. I don't think I can be much help on this one unfortunately. I'd start a new thread about this - most of the knowledgeable VR6 guys probably don't visit this thread all that often. 
Gary
 
Thanks for the suggestion. You have been so helpful to so many who ask questions, that I feel bad asking yet another. 
You were correct before that there was a problem with my head gasket. I believe that I have fixed the HG but I continue to get a Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance code (P0341 with my OBDII scan tool) and the engine oscillate between 300-1200 rpm at idle about half the time. 
Here is my question, specific to your expertise. *I was wondering if my timing would continue to be off if I had pulled the head from the car, without making 100% sure that the engine was at Cyl #1 TDC, but had followed your DIY instructions for the timing correction. *That is, after putting the head back on (and before installing the upper timing chain) I made sure the camshafts (which hadn't been removed from the head) could have the camshaft alignment tool (tool #3268) installed correctly. Then, I made sure the block was at cyl #1 TDC using both the markings on the crankshaft pulley and the indicators on the flywheel (which were a little off so I slightly averaged the two). After both of these steps were taken, I installed the cam sprockets and upper timing chain, which was a little tight on the non-tensioner side. 
My symptoms are as follows: The engine will surges at higher rpms than idle while I am driving. At first I thought it was my ECU adjusting to my new fuel management chip, so I unplugged my MAF sensor (throwing the car into limp mode) which usually takes away that problem. But when I did that the car will not go over 2K rpm with loosing all power (which never happened before when the MAF was unplugged). 
The weird thing is that whether the CPS is plugged in or not I will still get the same P0341 code, even after I erased the code. I thought for sure the code would change to a CPS low input code or something but it just stayed the same. I even replaced the sensor with a new one from the dealer but the code just pops right up after starting the car, even after just erasing the code. I would care about the CEL light but the car stalls as soon as I take my foot off the gas, runs very poorly and seems quite hot. 
I also did not bleed my old style upper timing chain tensioner but didn't think this could cause such extreme driveablity problems. 
I will also take your earlier advice and start a thread of my own else where, but thought I would just ask you anyway. Sorry the run on at the keyboard







.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (swifty)*

Don't worry about asking questions. I may not always have an answer, but don't mind reading the questions.








When you set the bottom end to cyl#1 TDC, did you set the crankshaft to the correct position (using the crank pulley marks or the flywheel marks) AND make sure that the notch on the intermediate sprocket was visible? If not, then it's possible that the timing is one-half of a tooth off.
I'm not sure why you're getting the code. Maybe the timing is causing it. I was going to say that the sensor was bad and suggest that you change it, but you already did that. This is definitely a question for another thread.
I can check my Bentley CD at home tonight to see what it says about your code, but I'm not sure how helpful it will be.
Gary


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## swifty (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Thanks for your reply, Gary. I will keep my ears on the other boards. One issue, which I think may be a contributing factor to my current problem, is that the code started after installing a head spacer that raised the height of the top of the engine. This increased the distance between the intermediate sprocket and the camshaft sprockets. I have been told that this distance is liveable, as long as one advances the timing when dealing with the now offset timing chain. However, *I do not know which direction the upper timing chain must travel to "advance the timing."* That is, if their is slack on the non-tensioner side of the upper timing chain (resulting from the new spacer), should the slack be moved clock wise (from looking at the crankshaft) or counterclockwise? Or is this thinking an incorrect way to adjust for the spacer?


_Modified by swifty at 3:26 PM 10-1-2004_


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## KIEZERJOSE (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I know this might be a little off topic but do you know if there is a DIY on cams and valve springs?


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## zero666cool (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_All VR6s have the chains on the driver's side covered by two metal covers. What differs between the engines is the upper chain (single or double row), upper tensioner rail and upper tensioner bolt.
Gary

So the upper chain varies, do you know what possibly corrado engines use? I was going to buy this whole setup from this guy, I'm glad I put a hold on it, where can I find the engine code? Can you tell me which engine code used what kind of chain?
Thank,


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (zero666cool)*

AFAIK, all Corrado engines used the older double-upper-chain setup.
Gary


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## zero666cool (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

there isn't any variety in the double chains right? the only differ is single and double?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (zero666cool)*

Only difference is single or double row.
Gary


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## ubercruizinvr6 (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

someone may have mentioned this down the line....but helpful hint;
on an A3 VR6, the thermostat cover part of the thermostat housing has to be removed in order to remove the lower timing chain cover. There is a bolt that is around 2.5 to 3" long that must be removed, and theres really no way around it without pulling that t-stat cover. so, may want to have some G11/G12 and water handy if you're about to attempt the job. 
other then that, BUMP for one of the most informative and helpful VR6 DIYs on this site. Thanks Gary!


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## zero666cool (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (ubercruizinvr6)*

sorry to take over your post Gary, but it seems I couldn't find the engine code







, but some ppl told me that the engine is obd 2 at the RPG, the previous owner told me it is off a corrado and they were telling me that it should be from a 94 corrado if it is from a corrado, I don't know much about the VR6 engine, so I don't know. What kind of timing chain did the 94 corrado use?
thanks


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (ubercruizinvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ubercruizinvr6* »_on an A3 VR6, the thermostat cover part of the thermostat housing has to be removed in order to remove the lower timing chain cover. There is a bolt that is around 2.5 to 3" long that must be removed, and theres really no way around it without pulling that t-stat cover. so, may want to have some G11/G12 and water handy if you're about to attempt the job.

Did they change this on the AFP engines? There's no such bolt on the AFP. The lower cover comes off no problem without touching the T-stat housing.








Thanks for the heads up. I hadn't heard of this bolt before.








Gary


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (zero666cool)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zero666cool* »_sorry to take over your post Gary, but it seems I couldn't find the engine code







, but some ppl told me that the engine is obd 2 at the RPG, the previous owner told me it is off a corrado and they were telling me that it should be from a 94 corrado if it is from a corrado, I don't know much about the VR6 engine, so I don't know. What kind of timing chain did the 94 corrado use?
thanks

If it really is an AAA engine out of a '94 Corrado, then it uses the older double-upper chain setup.
Gary


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_
The lower cover comes off no problem without touching the T-stat housing.








Gary

I just did timing chains on my MkIII GLX, and we had to loosen the T-stat cover to get the lower cover bolt out... expensive G12 went all over the floor.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mhjett)*

That's intersting. I wouldn't have guessed that the AAA and AFP timing chain covers or T-stat housings were different.
Why does the T-stat housing need to be removed? Is on of the bolts behind it? Can someone post a pic?
Gary


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## ubercruizinvr6 (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I'll post one up when I get home. the bolt head basically is about an 1/4" away from the housing itself. That is pretty strange that VW would change the t-stat housing from Mk III to Mk IV...


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

We need a dedicated DIY forum.......for only substantiated, "correct" information.
Thanks for a Professional write up.....
C2


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (ubercruizinvr6)*

Yeah, one of the timing chain cover bolts is behind the T-stat housing. It's a long bolt, and it can't be pulled far enough out unless the T-stat housing is pulled away from the engine. Don't have a pic for you...
We were studying your pic Gary when we followed your DIY and couldn't figure out HOW you got the bolt out without removing the T-stat housing.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mhjett)*

My friend who helped me do the timing chain job (James 93SLC - had previously done it on his Corrado) said we needed to take the T-stat housing off, but when we got to that step, we realized we didn't need to.
This is really strange. I'm anxious to see your pic and compare it to one of mine.
Gary


----------



## ubercruizinvr6 (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

well most of the pictures i have are 'after the fact' i only took pictures after the cover was pulled.....but the actual 'thermostat housing' is fine and can stay in the block. the part that actually needs to be removed is this:
The thermostat cover. 








Here is the best picture I have of the thermostat cover and how it interferes with removal of the lower timing chain cover:








hopefully that pic explains it.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_My friend who helped me do the timing chain job (James 93SLC - had previously done it on his Corrado) said we needed to take the T-stat housing off, but when we got to that step, we realized we didn't need to.
Gary

I had taken off the whole thermostat because I was also removing the head at the same time. When we did Gary's I just figured it would be in the way, but alas I don't think we had any bolt clearance issues by leaving it on.
This is indeed a bit strange


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (ubercruizinvr6)*

Thanks. That picture explains everything. We had no problem getting that bolt out. I wonder if they changed the shape of the T-stat cover or shortened the bolt. I'm going to take a look at some of my pics and see if I can figure out what's different.
I'm planning on adding this info to the main DIY post and giving you credit.







Thanks again.
Gary


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

The thermostat housing design must be different on the MkIV... wonder if they have different part numbers?

Adding a note in the DIY for MkIII owners would be great, especially so you can plan ahead for loosing some coolant before you start the job http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by mhjett at 4:58 PM 10-8-2004_


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mhjett)*

Bump for one of the best DIY threads ever.







to great work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

TTT since I may be doing this soon.
I'm glad I saw this!
Thanks man.
Later,


----------



## Euro_Parts (Jul 13, 2004)

*Re: (nater)*

Nater, hows your car bud? Any more changes?


----------



## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

IM Sent...


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mhjett)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mhjett* »_The thermostat housing design must be different on the MkIV... wonder if they have different part numbers?


I just checked the ETKA CD. Pre-MKIV VR6s have a different T-stat housing than the MKIVs. The MKIV 12v VR6 uses part# 021 121 117 B and pre-MKIV 12v VR6s use part# 021 121 117 A. That would explain why I was able to get the lower cover off without removing the T-stat housing.
Gary


----------



## rret (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Hi Gary.
what a great writeup! thank you. i am in the process of doing my timing chains on a '96 GLX. I noticed that to insert the two 1/8 aluminum flat stocks to hold the camsahfts, that my timing marks were _slightly _off - both on the main pulley, and on the lowest timing chain sproket (the one with the special tooth). my engine ran fine with this "setup" - any thoughts or ideas? should I "build" the new chains the same way?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (rret)*

I guess it depends what "slightly" is. I would try to do it the way I've described first and if that doesn't work, then reproduce the condition it is in now. You may want to check for true TDC by finding the highest point for Cyl#1 and seeing if the marks are off.
Gary


----------



## MACHSLC2 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I just finished this project with a lot of help from Gary and this post, Thanks again! With any project there is individual circumstances that vary, thats what makes first time DIY the hardest. I think this post however covers just about all of the variables. Here is one that I found and would like to add. This is done on a 97 GTI. I kept getting slack in the chain past the intermediate sproket. There is to be no chain slack on the guide side of the setup what so ever, only the tensioner side. This will drive you nuts trying to get right because if you dont, the engine is not timed properly. However, the best way to discern if the little slack is o.k. is to tighten everything as described in the post and rotate engine two revolutions as a test. If your timing is off after this then you got problems. I'm posting a video of the slack that I had on my outer intermediate chain. It turned out that this was o.k. and after turning two revs the slack was gone and the timing marks were dead on. So, just an FYI that may save someone the frustration of setting their chains 10 times with slack and still think they dont have it right. 
http://autobahnstormerz.tripod.com/vortex.html


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (MACHSLC2)*

The DIY has been updated with some useful input from Vortexers who have used the DIY to do the job. Thanks all.








Gary


----------



## psyc0ticcracker (Sep 14, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary i must thank you. I'm 19 yrs old and and with your DIY i did this procedure on my Corrado. (Of course with a lil help using Gramdpas shop and lift). saved me over 700 dollars in labor and i learned alot about my car and some of the craziest german engineering ever. Thanks man!!
Brandon
Jax, Fl


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (psyc0ticcracker)*

Awesome! Glad to hear that it helped out.








It was a learning experience for me as well. IMO, everyone should do this job at some point to learn more about the engine.
Gary


----------



## vdubjb (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

bump to make this recent and not archived. This should be in the FAQ.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (vdubjb)*

I'm pretty sure it's in the FAQ thread, near the bottom of the page.
Gary


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

















And a......... Bump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vr6power ! (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Shikaroka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shikaroka* »_
















And a......... Bump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

ouch ! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
mileage ?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Shikaroka)*

What the heck happened (other than the obvious)?








Gary


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I'm not sure of the milage, I'm going to try to find out tomorrow.
This was a known bad engine I bought to rebuild. It came out of a 95 Jetta GLX.
There was no lining left on the metal tensioner and the plastic upper (left) guide was busted into about 10 pieces. So, the chain had a lot of slop in it. I even found the rivets in the oil pan.
I'd say they ran it low on oil a couple times.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Shikaroka)*

That's a relief. I thought this happened to your engine or was the result of using my DIY to replace the timing chain parts.
Gary


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

HAHA!








Thank Jebus No!
I knew it was "bad" when I bought it, but I just didn't know how "BAD" until last night.


----------



## vr6power ! (Aug 11, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_That's a relief. I thought this happened to your engine or was the result of using my DIY to replace the timing chain parts.
Gary

lol ... that would suck














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Shikaroka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shikaroka* »_HAHA!








Thank Jebus No!
I knew it was "bad" when I bought it, but I just didn't know how "BAD" until last night.


It could be worse. Nothin' a little duct tape won't fix.








Gary


----------



## KIEZERJOSE (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Bump because i am going to do my chains this week, i am taking the head off so i can change the headgasket so i hope i dont screw anything up


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (KIEZERJOSE)*

Good luck.








Gary


----------



## brilliantyellowg60 (Aug 30, 2001)

bump for the best DIY thread i have ever seen, used it once so far and will use it again and again and again.....


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (brilliantyellowg60)*

Thanks for the compliment.















Gary


----------



## ColettaVWVR6 (Feb 29, 2004)

AWSOME


----------



## Tinzu (Feb 8, 2005)

bump.. .so helpful bud!


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Tinzu)*

Blurb about rear main seal spring added to installation steps.
Gary


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary, write up is working GREAT so far, thankyou so much for doing this but I do have a Q.
I replaced my HG so all the chains were off. While re-timing I noticed the timing arrow on intermediate sprocket started off facing down (6 o'clock point) as shown in this picture and would also make sense why it was like that when the motor was originally set to TDC #1








I'm guessing I put it on with the arrow up by accident for some reason but now it does seem 1/2 tooth off. Can you confirm that the arrow has to be pointing DOWN on the intermediate sprocket for it to be timed correctly?


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (d-bot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *d-bot* »_Can you confirm that the arrow has to be pointing DOWN on the intermediate sprocket for it to be timed correctly? 

It can be pointed down (6 o'clock) or up (12 o'clock) to be timed right.
i
1/2 a tooth off would indicate that the lower chain is off by 1 tooth.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (d-bot)*

As James pointed out, it can be at either 6 or 12 o'clock.
Somewhere the timing is off. Verify both the crank and intermediate sprockets are timed correctly. When the cams are one half tooth off, it's usually due to one of these (crank, inner inter.) not being correct.
Gary


----------



## peregost (Aug 12, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (d-bot)*

Sorry to bring back such a old thread, but lately Ive been noticing the timing chain noise for my 98' Jetta GLX from this sound clip http://www.agthompsonfamily.co...e.wma I've recently had my timing chain, guides, tensonors done about 1500miles ago and ive been hearding this sound at about 1-1.5krpm its not as loud as that sound clip but it has that same tone/pitch, Iam worried about this though because iam dropping in a Turbo in my car next month.


----------



## Blk95VR6 (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (peregost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *peregost* »_Sorry to bring back such a old thread, but lately Ive been noticing the timing chain noise for my 98' Jetta GLX from this sound clip http://www.agthompsonfamily.co...e.wma I've recently had my timing chain, guides, tensonors done about 1500miles ago and ive been hearding this sound at about 1-1.5krpm its not as loud as that sound clip but it has that same tone/pitch, Iam worried about this though because iam dropping in a Turbo in my car next month.

I know the cutover from the old to new style tensioner bolt was sometime in 1997, but do you know if you have a newer style tensioner bolt? If you have an old one, it may be need to be re-bled so the pressure is not so great on the upper chain. You can access it by removing the 27mm bolthead on the back driver's side of the engine (behind the secondary cooling pump). If it's an older style, bleed it down, then reinsert it into the block. It SHOULD (key word here) get rid of the noise. A guy had a similar dilemma a couple days ago and it turned out to be a tensioner bolt that needed to be bled off and reinstalled. Good luck...
Mike


----------



## Blk95VR6 (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (d-bot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *d-bot* »_Gary, write up is working GREAT so far, thankyou so much for doing this but I do have a Q.
I replaced my HG so all the chains were off. While re-timing I noticed the timing arrow on intermediate sprocket started off facing down (6 o'clock point) as shown in this picture and would also make sense why it was like that when the motor was originally set to TDC #1








I'm guessing I put it on with the arrow up by accident for some reason but now it does seem 1/2 tooth off. Can you confirm that the arrow has to be pointing DOWN on the intermediate sprocket for it to be timed correctly? 


Matt,
Both Gary, and James are correct. The intermediate shaft will be 180 degrees out of postion when you turn the crank pulley 2 full turns and set the crank at #1 TDC. When you rotate the crankshaft two additional turns the intermediate shaft will return to the starting position (6 or 12 o'clock). While you've got the motor apart, I'd set the crank pulley to #1 TDC, remove the intermediate shaft bolt, upper and lower chains, and set the camshafts by inserting the locking plates, then reinstalling the chains and intermdiate shaft. That's the easiest way to make SURE your timing is correct (all the marks should line up, and your timing will be good to go). I used Gary's DIY and it was SUPERB. Good luck, let us know how it turns out. Good that you caught it now instead of AFTER you'd buttoned it all up and tried to start it...
Mike


----------



## peregost (Aug 12, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Blk95VR6)*

Mike, Do you have any pictures of exaclly where to take this out of, Ive looked all over.


_Modified by peregost at 6:54 PM 4-17-2005_


----------



## veedubyah (Mar 10, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Do I need to take much off if I just want to look at the upper rail?


----------



## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (veedubyah)*

You need to take off your Manifold...Coilpack...wires...and on the side...behind the coilpack..is about 6 hex nuts..take them off....and wa la....


----------



## A2B4guy (Dec 19, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Thanks, Gary! I just did my timing chains and head gasket on my 95 and this was a valuable resource, particularly regarding the int shaft notch alignment. 
My car has EGR and having read your update, I took pics and have written some instructions that may help. Can I email these to you or post it to the testing forum where you can grab it?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (A2B4guy)*

EGR system details added to the DIY UPDATES section at the end of the DIY. Thanks A2B4guy!!!






















Gary


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

BUMP because I just got done another chain job and wanted to add something that a lot of people (even shops!) don't know.
Its not chain specific, but you have to watch it on the trans reinstall...
You will be left with a few bolts that are 19mm heads of varying lengths. The uppermost trans bolt has to be the SECOND SHORTEST of the ones you have. Any longer ones will pierce a cooling passage in the block and if you ever have to take it out you (or I!) will get very wet and wonder why. The 'fix' is to either install a plug in the passage and reinstall the bolt (preferred) or to run the right bolt down the hole with RTV to seal it up. 
Hope that helps someone!


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_BUMP because I just got done another chain job and wanted to add something that a lot of people (even shops!) don't know.
Its not chain specific, but you have to watch it on the trans reinstall...
You will be left with a few bolts that are 19mm heads of varying lengths. The uppermost trans bolt has to be the SECOND SHORTEST of the ones you have. Any longer ones will pierce a cooling passage in the block and if you ever have to take it out you (or I!) will get very wet and wonder why. The 'fix' is to either install a plug in the passage and reinstall the bolt (preferred) or to run the right bolt down the hole with RTV to seal it up. 
Hope that helps someone!









Good point. This is why I labeled each bolt as I removed it. Every bolt went back into the exact same hole so I wouldn't have to worry about things like this happening.
Gary


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_
Good point. This is why I labeled each bolt as I removed it. Every bolt went back into the exact same hole so I wouldn't have to worry about things like this happening.
Gary

Apparently that's what the difference between a BS and PhD is, labeling.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (need_a_VR6)*

You should see what I can accomplish with one of those fancy Brother label makers! Give me 8 years and I could probably write a dissertation with one.















Gary


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I thought that was how you did your first copy of it.. and thats why it took awhile







In other news I love those label makers, they rock for wire labels.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (need_a_VR6)*

It was only one of many reasons why it took "a while". Don't even get me started.















Gary


----------



## Risky GTI (Nov 11, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I used this write up during my chain job on my 97 VR6. It came in very handy during the rebuild.
My buddy (VW tech) are doing the job outside my house and the engine is currently still out of the car.
My car has 97k on the odo and I started to hear the "sewing machine" noise at low rpms. I also had a coolant leak at the thermometer housing. I found out the o-rings around the sensors were toast. I took the opportunity to redo all the hoses, serp belt, tune up, flywheel, clutch, Peloquin and r&p along with a chip. Also, deleted the secondary air pump and used a plug from 42 draft designs. Also, a metal crack pipe was installed, since the OEM one burst into pieces upon touching it.
What I noticed are a few things.
1. Despite the noise, the guides, rails and tensioners had very little wear. The upper guides had very slight grooving. I am still at a loss why my engine was so noisy other than the chain became a little slack given the mileage. BTW the car was on synthetic oil the last 30k miles.
2. We used an OEM upper chain that had to be joined at the ends. My buddy who has wrenched on VWs through our local dealership for years had never assembled such a chain. I'm hoping it holds up. The chain was manufactured by an OEM supplier.
3. My buddy broke one of the bolts that holds the lover tensioner near the allan head. We went to the hardware store and got stronger bolts that use the standard allen head. It is not in the line of the chain so the head of the bolt won't make a difference. Be careful when removing these bolts, the head is rounded and very fragile.
4. We used the specialty tools to install the rear main seal which made things very easy.
5. We also used the specialty clutch alignment tool to install the flywheel and clutch. Very easy. 
3. All the hoses were shot and needed replacing. I took the time to remove all the spring clamp hoses and used just standard hose clamps.
4. I am currently waiting for my buddy to finish the trans. We needed to replace 1st and 2nd gear syncros. Other than that, the diff looked okay. I can't wait to try the Peloquin and new r&p.
I'll update when we're done.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Risky GTI)*

Bump,
B/c I just used this when I couldn't figure out why my chains were always like half a tooth off even though the cams were on.
I delved into this post and saw the last minute addition where you talked about lining up that notch on the intermediate shaft OUTER sprocket.
Thanks. After that, it all lined up and she's getting put back in tomorrow.









Nater


_Modified by [email protected] at 5:46 PM 8-6-2005_


----------



## goofydug (Feb 5, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 ([email protected])*

back from the dead, this is an invaluable post


----------



## nycpassatB4 (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (goofydug)*

anyone will do it for me, hehe
of course for a price, nyc area


----------



## ghop14 (May 25, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

This post helped me out greatly, much respecpt, i wish i took pics for those corrado guys w/ the old setup, just didnt have a camera handy, sorry, nice post thanks a ton for the help, i will post a pic soon of my upper tensioner piece that was broken, making just about the same noise as the posted one at the top of the 1st post shortly....


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## dmacd007 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

This is Brilliant.
Thank you, thankyou , thankyou.
I purchased the CD set VW service & repair manual , and it was basically crap, never went into any detail at all.
Oh did i say this was brilliant.

Thanks again for saving me time and money.
dmacd007


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (dmacd007)*

Glad it helps out.








That's why I did it.
Gary


----------



## MJM Autohaus (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_BUMP because I just got done another chain job and wanted to add something that a lot of people (even shops!) don't know.
Its not chain specific, but you have to watch it on the trans reinstall...
You will be left with a few bolts that are 19mm heads of varying lengths. The uppermost trans bolt has to be the SECOND SHORTEST of the ones you have. Any longer ones will pierce a cooling passage in the block and if you ever have to take it out you (or I!) will get very wet and wonder why. The 'fix' is to either install a plug in the passage and reinstall the bolt (preferred) or to run the right bolt down the hole with RTV to seal it up. 
Hope that helps someone!









Good stuff, Paul! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## lrw2005 (Sep 30, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains,-question about valve damage*

what a gold mine of info. i'm currently replacing the lower chain on my 96 passat and have a question. the chain broke during start up and i'm trying to determine if an damage occurred to the valves or pistons. i have removed the cams and was going to crank the engine and check the compression but noticed that the valve followers are sitting at different heights (just slightly diff. on three cylinders). is this normal or do you think it's a sign of damage? thanks


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains,-question about valve damage (lrw2005)*

Sounds like valve damage to me.








Gary


----------



## a2t2 (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (goofydug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *goofydug* »_back from the dead, this is an invaluable post

This, and *ALL* Garys awesome DIY's can now be found in an organized manner at http://www.GruvenParts.com
Another thanks out to Gary for doing all this work for us!!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## merkdoggti (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (a2t2)*

just like to say, THANK YOU GARY.. for all your hard work on this diy. lost my mind, but saved my pocketbook on this one!! everything went very smoothly before and after the inter. shaft. but now the pita stopped charging.








All in all, you da man mr. Gary
thanks,
.-.-.merk


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (merkdoggti)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Bump to keep it out of archived threads. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Gary


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

so all you really got to change is the plastic guides since the chains can last for the lifetime of the car?? Im getting a VR6 today..hopefully.......... soo I'll rather do the guides and not remove the tranny until is necessary


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_so all you really got to change is the plastic guides since the chains can last for the lifetime of the car?? Im getting a VR6 today..hopefully.......... soo I'll rather do the guides and not remove the tranny until is necessary









You can only replace the upper guide rail without removing the tranny. You're right about really only having to replace the guides, but after taking everything apart, it doesn't make sense to not replace the chains as well "while you're in there".
Gary


----------



## ironroadgolf (Oct 26, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Shikaroka)*








the lower pivot broke on the lower tensioner and wedge itself in the lower chain ,breaking it and bending 5 valves..lol i bought my passat for 500 bucks.


----------



## stealth GTi (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (roland98gti)*

assuming i changed the outer intermediate shaft sprocket and cam sprockets to a single row chain setup. could i use a new style upper tensioner rail and bolt on an old style motor? my concern is mainly the oil feed to the tensioner bolt. did the vr6 head change between say 96 - 98?
my motor is a bit of a mystery, the valve cover # is consistant with being a new style chain but when i took it apart there was an old style tension rail and bolt using a single upper chain







i think when the cams were change by the PO, he changed the upper chain and sprockets to the single row setup but didnt change the tensioner assembly










_Modified by stealth GTi at 12:20 PM 11-24-2005_


----------



## VDubViking (Aug 31, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

In order to change the upper tensioner bolt does the car need to be lifted with the wheels off the ground or do you just need to be sure that nothing moves while the bolt is out?
Not exactly clear from the DIY but thought it better to ask.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VDubViking)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDubViking* »_In order to change the upper tensioner bolt does the car need to be lifted with the wheels off the ground or do you just need to be sure that nothing moves while the bolt is out?
Not exactly clear from the DIY but thought it better to ask.

It doesn't have to be off the ground. Just make sure nothing moves.
Gary


----------



## VDubViking (Aug 31, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VDubViking)*

Bump for you Gary. I want to do this and write a DIY on the clutch replacement at the same time, but I'll have to wait for another 7 day break















Mike


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (FaelinGL)*

LOL. I'm planning on doing the clutch DIY if you don't get to it first, but I'm still waiting for the stupid clutch to die. It's got 195k miles on it and is still going strong. I guess I shouldn't complain about that!








Gary


----------



## FaelinGL (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Heheh that's my problem, it just won't die. I've got a brand new clutch sitting in a box looking at me every day I go out into the garage. I must admit, I sometimes speed my clutch along its demise by flooring it in second








Mike


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (FaelinGL)*

That shouldn't do any damage to it though. The VR6 clutch is way overkill on a stock engine, so as long as the clutch pedal isn't partialy depressed, then no wear should occur. I floor it all the time and there's no clutch slippage ever.
If you want to kill it, drive around with the pedal depressed halfway. That'll fry in it no time.








Gary


----------



## flashredvdub (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

great DIY...just used it this past weekend and everything came out perfect http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## flashredvdub (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

great DIY...just used it this past weekend and everything came out perfect http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## modena (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (flashredvdub)*

How long would you say a VW dealership or other VW specialist shop would take to replace everything that was replaced in this DIY?
I called a local dealership and they gave me a rough parts and labor estimate of $1500. That seems steep to me, but I've never done this before so what do I know?


----------



## porksoda (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (modena)*

it sounds about right maybe +/- a few hundred if you go to a non dealership....
i got a cost on this and just for the labour i was quoted 1k cdn... and that was from a shop not the dealership...
i guess i would get onto doing this but i dont feel 100% in pulling the tranny out and such.. my shop guy recommends i wait and do it when the clutch needs replacing and i am on about 82k miles.... and seems to be fine...
i do believe there are some plastic pieces that may have a- gotten stuck on the chain or b-are in there rattling... cuz i do hear a noise here and there at low rpms... that sounds like like plastic hitting the metal really quick..
shrugs...


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Bump ... out of the archive.
Gary


----------



## oldskoolveedubbin (May 16, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

keep this out of the archive. this DIY has kept me on the right track of my own timing chain project. the only problem i face at this point is not having the damn tool to remove the flywheel-crank bolts. they are so damn tight and a regular 8mm hex key does not take them out. there should be a list of the tools you need for the entire clutch/timing chain project. anyway THANKS for the DIY gary, you are a lifesaver.


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (oldskoolveedubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oldskoolveedubbin* »_the only problem i face at this point is not having the damn tool to remove the flywheel-crank bolts. they are so damn tight and a regular 8mm hex key does not take them out. there should be a list of the tools you need for the entire clutch/timing chain project. anyway THANKS for the DIY gary, you are a lifesaver.

_ingenuity_ 
use your imagination a bit on this... the special tool is far from needed... a couple spare bolts and a boxed end wrench will work to keep it from moving so you can get those bolts out... i've changed 4 clutches and never needed the special tool.


----------



## Sh0cker (Sep 21, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (85Golf12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_ _ingenuity_ 
use your imagination a bit on this... the special tool is far from needed... a couple spare bolts and a boxed end wrench will work to keep it from moving so you can get those bolts out... i've changed 4 clutches and never needed the special tool.

you dont need a special tool for cluch removal...its the flywheel that requires triple square key, 10mm if i remember correctly
Btw, this is a great DIY....i based the head gasket + chains on it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Sh0cker)*

My chain noise after replacement seems louder than I would have
thought. I was thinking it might be the tensioner bolt not being
properly bled. 
I have an early style VR and after reading through this it seems
I'm not at all certain if you can swap in the late tension bolt or
not. Can you?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (jamesn67)*

You can use the newer-style tensioner bolt, but you also need to use the newer-style upper tensioner rail. Like the older-style bolt and rail, the newer-style bolt and rail are a matched set.
There appears to be issues with using the newer-style bolt on distributor VR6s - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2527218


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Ok, that's where I came across that about using the newer bolt.
Well I have a coilpack so that's not a problem. I did use the
older style rail so I'll have to stick with the tensioner I have.
Guess I'll pull it and re-bleed it and see what happens.


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Sh0cker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sh0cker* »_you dont need a special tool for cluch removal...its the flywheel that requires triple square key, 10mm if i remember correctly
Btw, this is a great DIY....i based the head gasket + chains on it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

ya i misread what he was saying.. . ya he needs the triple square to get the bolts out. i was thinking the flywheel was turning on him while trying ot get them out and explained to him how to hold it... oh well.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (85Golf12v)*

Sooo. what kind of oil doyou use? change intervals? Mileage on engine? My Corrado looked wAY cleaner inside (to my ewxtreme suprise), no oil gunk or extreme yellowing anywhere, just lots of carbon in the chambers.
anyways just curious. I usually use castrol 10/40


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (kevwithoutacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevwithoutacorrado* »_Sooo. what kind of oil doyou use? change intervals? Mileage on engine? My Corrado looked wAY cleaner inside (to my ewxtreme suprise), no oil gunk or extreme yellowing anywhere, just lots of carbon in the chambers.
anyways just curious. I usually use castrol 10/40









My car has gone 10k miles between changes on average. Dino was used for the first 100k (this is where the golden color most likely came from) and synthetic (Castrol Syntec 5w-30, Mobil1 0w-40 and 5w-30 and Shell Rotella T 5w-40) since. The timing chain pics are at 147k miles. Despite the golden color (which really is no big deal) and a TINY bit of sludge deposit on the timing chain covers, the engine is completely sludge free and in incredible shape. She still purring at 201,848 miles.


----------



## JustRoLLit (Mar 20, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

IM sent for advise before I start my own timing chain project.
Thanks in advance Gary


----------



## oldskoolveedubbin (May 16, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (JustRoLLit)*

ahh i will have to say gary's diy on the chains was awesome, i am just looking to see how the wires go into the coilpack then i can fire it up and see what happens. the jobs isnt that hard by any means, it just requires patience, and lots of time (i spent 35 hours doing it myself, but did mess up timing once and had to start the chians over.) i cannot stress how important it is to have all the necessary tools first. once im done ill make a list of every tool needed. thanks gary


----------



## vrnick01 (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (oldskoolveedubbin)*

my tranny is being bolted up sometime tonight, the job was supposed to be done today but pap parts sent me the wrong upper guide rail, so untill then all i can do is put my tranny back in and connect everything else, so hopefully tue or wends it will be running. what makes it worse is i did my 268's with spec stg 2 aswell so im dying to drive it lol.


----------



## oldskoolveedubbin (May 16, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (vrnick01)*

almost complete until i mixed up the power and ground straps. now i have a battery light on and it will not charge. gotta see how the voltage reg. and alternator are so i can know what to do next. aaahhh this is starting to piss me off.


----------



## ChrisofNorway (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Bububu bu bu bump!


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Added a new timing chain noise video clip to the introduction. Thanks dankvwguy!


----------



## VDubLubbr (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Would you recommend changing the bolts that hold the guide rails and tensioners in?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VDubLubbr)*

I wouldn't, unless something that happened to the chain parts caused some damage to them. I can get you part numbers if you would like to. Let me know.


----------



## Zoso (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

just pulled my stuff out on a 95 vr6 and on my old style tensioner I had worn through the upper rivets at 120K miles. Wasn't making noise, I just had the time to take care of it right now, good timing I guess.


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## VDubLubbr (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I have part numbers. One of the bolts on the upper guide now has grooves cut into it after the guide disintegrated. Thanks for the great DIY guide!!!


----------



## VDubLubbr (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Well, I did the timing chains, got everything put back together, cranked it and it ran like crap. Did a compression test. Cylinders 1-3-5 had compression, 2-4-6 had none. As far as I know it's timed. It was running bad before I did all of this, so I'm guessing bent valves.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VDubLubbr)*


----------



## VDubLubbr (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Your DIY was awesome though! Couldn't have done it without it. Any suggestions now?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VDubLubbr)*

Probably a leakdown test first to confirm valve damage and then take the head off for the repair.


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## VDubLubbr (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Can the head be removed without taking the transmission off again. That took most of the time.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VDubLubbr)*

Yes, it can ... luckily.


----------



## vr6l6rv (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Quick question. Im in the process of doing my headgasket, timing...etc and setting my timing to cylinder 1 TDC seems to be the problem. I cant seem to find the notch on the Crank Pulley. I've rotated this pulley like 50 times and still can't seem to find the notch. My question is, Is there something else i can reference that will indicate my timing is set at cylinder 1 TDC? Has anyone ran into this problem? And Is this normal to not have a notch mark on the crank pulley? Btw, i have a 93 corrado vr6.
thanks in advance


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## 246617 (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_52. Remove the upper tensioner bolt from the container of oil, wipe it off and then install it in the rear edge of the upper timing chain cover. Torque to the bolt to 22 ft-lbs (30 N-m). (Note: The MKIV Bentley gives conflicting values for the tensioner bolt torque. In multiple places it lists it as 22 ft-lbs (30 N-m), but in one place it lists it at 30 ft-lbs (40 N-m). I'm not sure which one is actually correct, but either one would probably be OK. I torqued mine to 22 ft-lbs and have not had any problems.)

Does it matter what position this bolt is in when tightened? Or does it get fed oil not matter what position it is in? Just want to make sure that there is no specific position in terms of 12 oclock or 9 oclock that the bolt needs to be facing once tightened down. My Timing chain replacement as well as new clutch kit installation on my 117000 mile 2000 Getta GLX is awesome. Once I got everything apart i realized that it was not even that neccesary for me to do the replacement







, but it never hurts to do the preventitive maintenance. The DIY definitely helped out. Make sure to take both of your output shafts(part name?) on the back of the tranny when taking out and reinstalling. Knowing this wouldve saved me at least 2.5 hrs on the teardown and rebuild.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (******-VR)*

There is no correct clock position for the tensioner bolt. There is a circumferential oil-feed groove in it, so it will be fed oil regardless of its rotational position.
Removing at least the passenger's side output flange is a great idea, but removing both would be even better. Those two make removing the tranny 10x harder!


----------



## 246617 (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_There is no correct clock position for the tensioner bolt. There is a circumferential oil-feed groove in it, so it will be fed oil regardless of its rotational position.
Removing at least the passenger's side output flange is a great idea, but removing both would be even better. Those two make removing the tranny 10x harder!









Thanks for the fast input.







Cheers to this repair being chalked up on the list. Ill be doing my friend VR6 Corrado pretty soon but the engine will be out of that one. Thanks again for the info


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (******-VR)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## EcKoVr6 (May 21, 2006)

i dont have any mark on my ligthneigth pulley kit


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## wideveedub (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (EcKoVr6)*

Im doing my timing chain and this diy is very helpful but I got a question
is it normal that the lower guide rail is moving , you can make it slide on the locating pins 
thanks 
john


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (wideveedub)*

That's normal. The lower guide is not secured other than being held in place by the two pins. It will move in and out slightly.


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## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

I just wanted to add that with the tranny installed if you remove the upper timing cover you can see the intermediate shaft marking on the block using an inspection mirror. 
Truns out my flywheel marking is off. When I used the inspection mirror to get the bottom end timing set-up then finished the rest
of the install as usual my car runs like a top.


----------



## Boxy Squad (Oct 21, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

i like this. Thanx for this DIY


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## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

so, the slack in both chains is on the rear of the chain, that's the tensioner side, right?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (nick526)*

Correct.


----------



## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Any tips on installing a head gasket spacer?


----------



## Tylergeiger1 (Jul 14, 2006)

*Re: (talx)*

good info


----------



## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (VgRt6)*









Thanks Gary, you rock http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I am in the process of doing upper and lower timing chains on a 12v 99 VR6 and ran into a few issues. I need to know a part number for the bolt that the upper front chain guide slides onto. It has the allen wrench thing in the center off it. The one on the car was so bad, that the timing chain was riding on it and snapped it in half. 
Its this peice in the red arrow:








Also need to know torque specs for the bolt that holds the intermediate shaft sprocket, and any other specs that would be needed for the chains.
Please lemme know,
Steve


_Modified by Scuba2001 at 5:34 PM 3-11-2007_


----------



## SSheikh (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Scuba2001)*

This for the a AAA motor on my Passat








1, 021109465B,timing chain / IWIS 
2, 021109467,chain tensioner / IWIS 
3, N 90535001,allen key head bolt / M6X24 
4, 021109469,slide rail 
5, 021109471,pin 
6, 021109569,sprocket / Z=32 
7, 021109570,sprocket / Z=2X18 M >> AAA 217 000 
(7), 066109570,sprocket / Z=18 M AAA 217 001 >> 
8, N 10203803,hexagonal head bolt / M12X1,5X40 
9, 021109503A,timing chain / SACHS M >> AAA 217 000 
(9), 021109503D,timing chain M AAA 217 001>> 
10, 021109511,pin / IWIS 
11, 021109507A,chain tensioner / SACHS M >> AAA 217 000 
(11), 021109507B,chain tensioner M AAA 217 001>> 
12, N 0138271,seal / A22X27 
13, 021109509A,chain tensioner / SACHS M >> AAA 217 000 
(13), 021109509E,chain tensioner M AAA 217 001>> 
14, 021109515A,pin / 10X34X45 
15, 021109513,slide rail / IWIS 
16, N 01152520,washer / A8,4X16X1,6 
17, N 0102724,hexagonal head bolt / M8X26 
18, N 01152520,washer / A8,4X16X1,6 
19, N 01035210,hexagonal head bolt / M8X55

Torque specs:
3, 7 ft.lb (10 Nm)
5, 18 ft.lb (25 Nm)
8, 74 ft.lb (100 Nm)
10, 18 ft.lb (25 Nm)
11, 22 ft.lb (30 Nm)
14, 18 ft.lb (25 Nm)
17, 15 ft.lb (20 Nm)
19, 15 ft.lb (20 Nm)


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## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

Youre awesome, thanks.
Now final question... Whats the torque for the headbolts?


----------



## SSheikh (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: (Scuba2001)*

Again this is for an AAA motor. 








Stage 1 = 30 ft.lb
Stage II = 44 ft.lb
now with a normal wrench (preferebly non-ratcheting)
Stage III = 90 deg (1/4 turn)
Stage IV = another 90 deg (1/4 turn)
If you are trying to do this without without a bentley I highly recommend you get one. 
If you have any other questions regarding removal/installation of the head lets take it to another post as its starting to get a bit OT for this one.


----------



## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

the motor in the car is AAA.
Thanks again. We have a bently, but the person that has it had to work today, so no access.
All questions answered.


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## madlaxmann (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

great write up
one question i have the clicking noise in my vr and i was wondering if i could fix this without replacing the entire timing chain being that i am not that good nor do i have the time to remove the tranny. I am replacing the cams and you siad your ticking was from the upper guide rail so i figure while i was at the cams i could take a look at this. But would replacing that alone make the noise go away or would i need to take the covers off to find the broken piece somwhere in the motor? 
Thanks


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (madlaxmann)*

It would probably help finding the missing pieces as those are the things that will cause the rattle


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## breane24 (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Cubix)*

agreed!!!
I mean hell we ( SCUBA AND I) found some of the guide rail for the top timing chain in my oil return! And if you look above bolt number 14 was completely split and actually fell out once we were removing things.

if your car needs timing chains.. there is no way getting around it. Either you do it. Or you put it off. But don't be surprised when your car doesn't work anymore, from abuse.







I hate car owners who try to 'save' themselves money but eff the car up more.


----------



## madlaxmann (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (breane24)*

its not that im trying to SAVE money.... its mre that im 17 and dont HAVE any.... if i did i would get it fixed very quickly but i have no money.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (madlaxmann)*

Drive by my office in Chantilly so that I can listen to the engine. I've heard enough to be able to tell if your chains are an issue.


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## breane24 (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (madlaxmann)*

http://www.germanautoparts.com
best resource ever. Just ask your parents what you can do around the house.. Plus, pull strings. Find people who will help you out.. -
infact... i might have an extra set.. because german auto parts gave me two. I'll check what I've got see if its enough for another timing chain kit.. and maybe we could work something out...


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

This is an awesome, post, Gary. I just forwarded this post link to a friend that is contemplating replacing his own chains.. I could not believe the detail in this one. By far, one of, if not THE best DIY documentation ever!
I work in Chantilly, too.. where are you? Im off Walney and Westfields.
edit: germanautoparts.com is an awesome supplier for parts! Fast shipping, very helpful staff.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

Thanks.








I'm near the intersection of 50 and 28, on Lee Rd. down the street from the Target, CostCo and Chipotle (mmm ... lunch!).


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## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Great DIY, I have 155K miles on the car with no noise yet.
I am dreading this fix, but the DIY should help.

Gary, Wasn't there someone who added some trick to get the tranny out that saved time? I remember reading it somewhere, but don't recall.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (silentdub)*

The trick has been around for a while, but FaelinGL finally documented it with pics in his tranny DIY. You remove the two axle flanges from the tranny. These are one of the biggest reasons why the tranny is so hard to get out. The passenger's side flange catches on the flywheel and the driver's side flange hits the subframe.


----------



## breane24 (Feb 8, 2007)

VgRt6 (Gary), 
I just have nothing better to say. Then thank-you. You saved my poor Emily. We start the reassembly work today!! I'm most grateful. We did the work in about 5 weeks. And that's only because we worked in terms of 3 hours at a time.. .. So, you think that's about 15 hours...
I just don't know what I'd do/say. If we didn't have this write up. Wait.. My car would still not run correctly.
Btw. We found some guardrails and bolts in my oil return. I'll be sure and take a picture of the one bolt for ya'. So, you can laugh your butt off. - 
THIS IS THE BEST WRITE UP BY FAR!!!
Thank-you, for taking your time and doing it!
Yours Truly,
Breane Genelle Fillman
ps. Will I be getting a chance to shake your hand at h20?










_Modified by breane24 at 1:37 PM 3-26-2007_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (breane24)*

Glad to hear that it helped out so much! And thanks for the note. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'd love to go to H2O, but my 2-year old makes it difficult for me to travel. It's hard enough even trying to find free time to work on the car.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_The trick has been around for a while, but FaelinGL finally documented it with pics in his tranny DIY. You remove the two axle flanges from the tranny. These are one of the biggest reasons why the tranny is so hard to get out. The passenger's side flange catches on the flywheel and the driver's side flange hits the subframe.









I'm not sure I understand. The tranny can be removed without removing them?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (silentdub)*

Sure, with a few twists and turns of the tranny, a couple of pulled muscles in your neck and lots of swear words.








I've done it twice now without removing the flanges. It won't happen again.


----------



## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_I've done it twice now without removing the flanges. It won't happen again.









Its possible, but with an automatic under the hood, it makes it even more difficult. Doing Breane's timing chains, I found that removing the the control arm, and disconnecting the tie rod from the knuckle, and then moving everything out of the way, really helped get things back in place. It took us about 4+ hours to get it out of the car, and only about an hour to get it back in. It was so much easier, and would have been easier if we had been able to get the drive axles off.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Scuba2001)*

Nice work! I've never tried it on an auto and would have guessed that it was much harder. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Nice work! I've never tried it on an auto and would have guessed that it was much harder. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Thanks. Its much harder then you could imagine. Heavier, bulkier, and just so much more of a pita.
BUT... All of this mess leads me to my project that Ive been working on this evening.
Thanks again for the help, and the DIY. Its been a great tool.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Scuba2001)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Blk95VR6 (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Nice work! I've never tried it on an auto and would have guessed that it was much harder. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










Having done the chains on my auto, using Gary's writeup, I can attest that it is far easier to remove the entire front end (rad support, hood, bumper, etcetera) prior to removing engine *and* transmission together, then take the transmission off the engine. You can let the transmission fluid drain and do a filter change/flush while you're doing the chains, then put a new filter in, fill the transmission up with new fluid, put it aside, and do the chains. Then, reassemble it all together, slide it back in at the same time, mount everything back up, sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labor...
Mike


----------



## breane24 (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: (Blk95VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Blk95VR6* »_

Having done the chains on my auto, using Gary's writeup, I can attest that it is far easier to remove the entire front end (rad support, hood, bumper, etcetera) prior to removing engine *and* transmission together, then take the transmission off the engine. You can let the transmission fluid drain and do a filter change/flush while you're doing the chains, then put a new filter in, fill the transmission up with new fluid, put it aside, and do the chains. Then, reassemble it all together, slide it back in at the same time, mount everything back up, sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labor...
Mike

pretty much couldn't agree any more!!!


----------



## Scuba2001 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (breane24)*


_Quote, originally posted by *breane24* »_pretty much couldn't agree any more!!!
















Removing both engine and transmission in one peice is the best way to do things for time sake, and convenience. But if you dont have the resources or space to do such, then you're a little limited as to what you can do.


----------



## breane24 (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: (Scuba2001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scuba2001* »_Removing both engine and transmission in one peice is the best way to do things for time sake, and convenience. But if you dont have the resources or space to do such, then you're a little limited as to what you can do.

Which is exactly what happened in our case... We didn't have time/nor space or the given resources needed.. I wish we would. But it made us all better in the end.. And hopefully, it will save some of you the trouble.


----------



## eltiche (May 26, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

hi , just a lil problem i have with my car , i did all the process as was posted on the diy , i mena chen changing the timing chain in my vr6 12v , but now i seem to have a loss of power , my car wont go over 75mph , dont now wat i did wrong but im very fustrated with this . is a very big proyect and dont now wats the issue , do you know of any common problem or anyone having or had the same issue, i f you or anyone know the problem or have any idea please let me know , thanks for any help


----------



## VR6 Jetta 96 (Mar 11, 2006)

immediate guess would be its a tooth off on timing or something....although youd notice the car running oddly....missing, maybe a low idle. does it feel weird when running or idling?


----------



## mjkuwp (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Regarding the installation of the new rear main seal.
The DIY states to install the seal until it is flush to the flange, but on my car, the rear main is about 1mm below flush to the outside of the flange.
My car is a 1995 Passat GLX, engine code AAA (Nov. 1994 production).
It appears very clear to me that if I simply use a board or other flat surface to pound the new seal flush to the outside surface of the flange then my new seal will be 1mm out too far.
Any thoughts?
I am going to check the Bentley manual tonight.
btw, my car has 195k miles. I bought it with 28k so I doubt very much the rear seal had already been replaced.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mjkuwp)*

I don't think it really matters too much. As long as the seal doesn't hit parts of the crankshaft and flywheel that it's not supposed to (by being either too far in or two far out), the only requirements for the seal is that it make a good seal around the crankshaft and not fall out of the cover. I'm sure there's a range of depths in the cover that the seal can be and it be perfectly fine.


----------



## mjkuwp (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Thanks Gary, I think your comment is sensible.
The Bentley does not help on this topic much - it simply states the tool number to use for pressing the seal and does not specify a location.
I am going to do some measurements of the old seal position and the position of the sealing lip and then figure out where I want the new seal to go. There may be some logic to choose a slightly new or offset position for the seal to avoid worn spots on the crank Hub. I have not looked at this area closely yet.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mjkuwp)*

There's no way that the rubber seal is going to cause any wear on the crank, especially since the interface is at least partially oil-lubricated. I would just put the new seal in exactly the same way the existing one is and forget about it.


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## Reihenmotor_ (Mar 29, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_
The newer setup lasts considerably longer. When I replaced my timing chain parts at nearly 150k miles, the upper tensioner rail had grooves in it from the chain that were only a fraction of a mm deep. IMO, the rail would have easily last to 500k to 1M (million) miles based on how slowly it was wearing.








The lower chain parts are the same on all 12v VR6s - AFAIK, no changes to them have been made during the production of this engine.


I'm at 112k miles (180k kilometres). You said the upper guides last longer on the newer motors (I have an AFP motor, 1999.5), what about the lower guides? They haven't been upgraded or improved, but are they a known problem? I listened to the soundclips and my motor doesn't sound as bad as those at all. It doesn't sound new either.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Reihenmotor_)*

The lower parts are the same on all motors. There have been problems with them, but significantly less compared with the upper parts.


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

when my clutch goes, im going to use this DIY to do my chains. 
great write up Gary.


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## DubsportGTI (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (jhayesvw)*

Wow. Great writeup. I was sweating this part of my headgasket change, turbo install, clutch, etc. This will make things so much easier on me. Thanks!


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (DubsportGTI)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VWBoraDriver (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Wish us luck, we are going to tackle this tonight. My BFF's and I.
Hopefully this write-up according to others makes this much easier!


----------



## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary,
Great write up thank you. Just finished taking apart a '96 Passat VR6 with 72k miles because of upper guide rattle. I must start by saying that just yesterday the motor began running rough and codes 302, 304, & 306 were set so I figured I was probably too late. Only drove the car 100 miles since the rattle started so I figured I'd be ok.
In any event lined up the timing marks per your pictures, and determined that the intermediate sprocket notch was is in the right location, on top. Cams are also in the proper position because more material is below the grooves...problem is the VW plates will slide all the way through the grooves but will not rest on the block. Also the cams appear to both be tilted a little, maybe a 1/4". Did the motor already skip a tooth?
My Upper guide rail was broken in seven pieces with one piece being wedged below the lower timing chain cover. My question is, I can replace the upper guide but the motor's timing still seems incorrect since I cannot slide the plates through the grooves and have them rest on block like in your picture, right?
Is there another way to tell if the chain skipped? Coil pack has thrown codes before so maybe it went at the same time. Not sure.
Thanks for anyones help.
Eric


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## bansheelos (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Does this work on a OBD 1 distributor motor?


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## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (bansheelos)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bansheelos* »_Does this work on a OBD 1 distributor motor?

yes it does, there are a couple of diffrences, but, overall it's the same procedure...


----------



## iwantmyvdub (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (708VR6)*

You are pretty much the most awesome person in the world......I'm slightly less nervous about tackling this myself this winter now that I will have my laptop with this post by my side.


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## WOLFSBURG23 (Mar 20, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (iwantmyvdub)*

wow this post is amazing... big ups to the man who posted this up!!!!


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## Monkeydub (Oct 25, 2006)

I am looking into buying a 93 VR6 which has done 140k. The owner doesn't think the chains have been changed but says the engine is as sweet as a nut. For the time being can i change the tensioner and guide to the newer one....is this:
a) worth doing
b) possible to do with engine in the car 
c) a straight swap to the newer tensioner and guide or do parts need to be modded?


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## darksix (Sep 27, 2006)

is it possible to change the rear main seal without removing the lower chain cover? 
the chains were done by p.o. no too long ago..and before i put the clutch/fly trans and motor all together i think the seal has seen better days. like to keep the chain cover undisturbed if possible. thanks.


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## gtivdubdude (Mar 20, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

THANK YOU THANK YOU!! you saved me 100 bucks now i dont need the manual!


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## o0bur (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (gtivdubdude)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtivdubdude* »_THANK YOU THANK YOU!! you saved me 100 bucks now i dont need the manual!

Saved more than that... Call VW and ask them to quote you on the timing chain job.. Tell them you had a mechanic look at it previously and tell you the chain guides were gone. You saved more than 100 bucks lol..


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## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (WOLFSBURG23)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WOLFSBURG23* »_wow this post is amazing... big ups to the man who posted this up!!!!









you should check out his DIY page http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif you will be using it


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## adrianTNT (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (ricardo)*

VgRt6, can you please tell me what solution/paint/silicone you used to seal the camshaft cap?
Thank you.


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## slcrobo (Nov 2, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (adrianTNT)*

Awsome post! Thanks Gary!
did the chains in my 95 passat this weekend, 175,000 mi on the original parts. Looks like it i wanted to be lazy i could have gotten away with just doing the upper ones. The upper rear guide (tensioner side) was completly worn out and the chain was metal to metal (both upper rivets that hold the lining to the steel backing were gone) at the top of the guide. The upper front guide was cracked and the loop around the lower bolt was gone. Lower guides looked fine. This was alot of work, worst part was the trans removal. The axle flanges dont appear as they can be removed from the outside as I saw in some other posts to aid in removel which did not help. I also had a bolt in my t-stat housing break in the head, then proceded to break an eazy out in the bolt, etc, etc. after many hours of work was finally able to remove the bolt and re tap the head. 
anyhoo thanks again


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (adrianTNT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adrianTNT* »_VgRt6, can you please tell me what solution/paint/silicone you used to seal the camshaft cap?
Thank you.

I just used standard Permatex Brand RTV from AdvanceAutoParts. Make sure to use the GREY O2 sensor-safe version.


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Someone please HELP! 
Just started up my '96 VR6 auto after performing the timing chain install using the write-up step by step. Every timing mark lining up perfectly, wires are routed correctly but I'm still getting the same codes as when the chain skipped a tooth 3 months ago. P301, P302, & P303
Both Upper & Lower Guides were completely gone after only 70k miles so I had to remove the Oil Pan & flush out the Oil Pump pickup screen. Sceen was caked with plastic.
Motor is nice and quite no noise's, but it's not running on all six. What gives, hate to send the car to the junk yard but I'm not spending anymore time on my back in my driveway.








Thanks in advance. Eric



_Modified by 97lt4ss at 7:33 PM 11-16-2007_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

Those three codes indicate misfires in cylinders 1, 2 and 3. Why would timing be involved in that? Have you checked to make sure that plugs, wires and coilpack are OK?


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary,
Timing isn't involved in a misfire, that's good news? I replaced only the wires/plugs while I was in there, coilpack is original. Wouldn't a bad coilpack throw only a P300 for a multiple misfire instead of individual cylinders like P301?
Wouldn't a motor that skipped a timing chain tooth also misfire because it's no longer timed correctly? I'd rather not dump another $300 if the motor already has internal engine damage from the chain.
Motor is running identical to when the timing chain skipped after the guides basically disintegrated.
Thanks, Eric

_Modified by 97lt4ss at 9:01 AM 11-17-2007_


_Modified by 97lt4ss at 9:03 AM 11-17-2007_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

Mistiming CAN cause a misfire, but I wouldn't think it would only affect a portion of the cylinders in both banks. IMO, it would more likely affect all cylinders in one or both banks. I could be wrong though.
Also, a bad coilpack can cause a number of different misfire codes. Sometimes you get P0300 for a multiple cylinder misfire (sometimes all 6 if it's truly messed up), but sometimes you just get a code for a particular cylinder. I've seen it many times where one of the two posts for one of the three coils in the pack went bad, even though the other post for that coil was still working.
You say that you did the timing job correctly, so why would you then think that it wasn't done right. If it was my car, I would assume that the timing was correct and then start systematically testing the different parts of the ignition system to find the cause of the misfires.


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary,
[You say that you did the timing job correctly, so why would you then think that it wasn't done right. If it was my car, I would assume that the timing was correct and then start systematically testing the different parts of the ignition system to find the cause of the misfires.[/QUOTE]
Your statement makes sense. I'll have to buy a new coilpack and hope for the best. Wish I could test the timing in my driveway before I spend more $, just to be sure.
Car ran great before the chain guides broke apart so I figured my ignition was good to begin with. 
Thanks again, Eric.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

I think I may not understand the whole story correctly. Is this how things happened?
1) Car works fine
2) Chains/guides fail and car runs like crap
3) Chains/guides are replaced
4) Car still runs like crap
Is that true? If it is, then the misfires could be due to damage to valves that occurred when the chains/guides failed.


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary,
Yes, that's the exact chain of events. Unfortunately the codes popped on the same day the guides went so I had no time to park the car and inspect. Wouldn't I have heard the valves hitting the pistons when the guides went? Guess a valve job will have to wait until the Spring, too cold out now.
Thank you, Eric


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

Being able to hear the carnage would depend on how bad it is. I would do a compression test. That can tell you if the timing is off or if some or all of the cylinders have damaged valves.


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary,
Dealer quoted $2,000 + $300 to diagnois, sound fair for a valve job? I'd try it myself but it's 35 degrees out and only gonna get colder. Can't believe VW didn't even change the design of the new Guide Rails, very poor design IMO. Hate to junk a 70k '96 Passat that has many miles to go.
Thanks again,
Eric


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

That's a ton of money, especially when you can buy a fully refurbished head for A LOT less than that. I would consider having a non-dealer do it or buy the necessary parts and pay someone to replace them.


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Good idea, I'll have to make some more calls. How much should I expect to pay to have my head rebuilt vs. refurbished head online? Since it still holds coolant I will assume only three valves have been damaged and the rest of the head is a good core.
Thanks


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

I've seen fully refurbished heads in the classifieds for $500, but that was super cheap. You can buy most of the parts online for a few hundred bucks and then pay a local head rebuilder/machins shop another couple hundred to do the work.
I would post in your regional forum and ask what would be a good place to go to in your area.


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## jmaddocks (Jan 31, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

New design: 217001
My engine: 215858








But it was made on my birthday, which is pretty cool.








Great writeup, BTW -- I was just installing a new main seal and clutch this weekend, hoping to get everything buttoned up this morning. Looks like I'll be doing the timing chains as well, since I'm already about 80% there... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (jmaddocks)*

Gary,
Compression test results:
Cylinder #1 had zero compression, while 2-6 registered exactly 180 pounds.
Still doesn't explain why I am getting misfire codes of P302 & P303. I understand P301 but why would other cylinders be effected by #1 not having compression?
Cam locking plate slide in the cam grooves perfectly and the notch on the intermediate sprocket is in the proper position while engine is at TDC #1.
Any thoughts as to why the misfire codes, other than #1?
Thanks,
Eric


_Modified by 97lt4ss at 3:16 PM 11-30-2007_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

I guess it's possible that the other misfires are either erroneous or are a result of bad cylinder. I would fix the bad cylinder and then see if anything comes back.


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Head is off, reassembly will be a bear. Found a home for one of the Camaros for a month so at least the VW is in a heated garage.
#1 Exhaust valve bent
#3 Exhaust valve bent
#2 Intake valve bent
Not sure how I got 180 psi from cylinders 2 & 3 with bent valves?
Sure solves the P301, 302, & 303 misfire codes.
Pistons look fine so I'll drop the head off tomorrow and have all the guides & seals replaced. I'm thinking $250 for a rebuild if I supply the parts, sound right?
Thanks

_Modified by 97lt4ss at 7:08 PM 11-30-2007_


_Modified by 97lt4ss at 7:09 PM 11-30-2007_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

Well at least you know what it is now and that it's not that serious. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Gary,
Another item to note was the position of the cam locking plate. With the Tensioner installed the locking plate slid easily into the front cam grooves but the rear cam required extra force with my hand. Plate went in flush but should the rear cam be that tight of a fit? 
With the Tensioner removed the locking plate slid into both cams without effort. Should I be concerned that the timing may still be off based on the fact that when the Tensioner is bolted into the chain cover the locking plate does not slide easily into both cams, some effort is required?
Thanks again


_Modified by 97lt4ss at 6:00 PM 12-2-2007_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (97lt4ss)*

The tensioner will initially apply more force to the rear cam, and that's what your seeing. What you should do is, put the tensioner in, rotate the crankshaft two revs and then slide the tool in. Both cams should be dead on then.


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## McDubin (Mar 24, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


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## 97lt4ss (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Qui-Gon Dub)*

She's back to life, man that was a tough job. Best part was the machine shop which rebuilt the head hot tanked the cams which in turn removed my paint markings so I reinstalled the chains blind. Motor purrs like a kitten again.
Now on to my next problem. The 01M Auto only works in 1st gear now. I changed the fluid per Bentley but it will not engage Reverse or Drive with the axels/tires on. The input shafts moved properly (R/D) before I put everything back together but now it seems as if there is not enough pressure to move the car. Fluid level seems correct, it's dripping out of the ATF level plug...so not sure what the problem is. I did notice a milky substance inside the filter pipe, does that mean anything?
Thanks,
Eric


_Modified by 97lt4ss at 3:00 PM 12-12-2007_


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## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I only want to replace the upper guide. Is it really necessary for me to take off the headcover, lock the cams at TDC etc., if I am not taking off the chain or replacing anything else? I was hoping to get off the upper chain cover from the side, and not move anything when replacing the upper guide.


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## redfox1776 (Oct 3, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (leathermonkey)*

I am in a similar situation, but I did have to do some work which required me to remove the head. Even with the head off, according to the shop at City VW in San Diego, if I understood them correctly, it _is_ necessary to remove the tranny in order to replace the upper timing chain guide(s).







The alternative is to pull the engine.







So, because I don't want to have to do this again anytime soon, I ordered a complete timing chain kit from MJM Autohaus in San Antonio ($150). Supposed to be here in a couple of days and it includes both timing chains, all guides, rails, etc.


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## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (redfox1776)*

You DONT have to remove the tranny if you are only changing the upper guide rail, but DO have to remove the tranny if you are replacing the upper tensioner guide and/or upper chain.
I am trying to find out if I have to lock the cams, set it to top dead center, and all of that, if I am ONLY changing the upper guide rail, and nothing else... ie, not taking off the upper chain.


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## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (redfox1776)*

Yeah, I hear ya on replacing everything.. definatly the way to go... I know I sound like the guy who doesnt want to follow directions.. I'm just bummed to hear the noise, am hoping its just the upper rail, and am looking for the least intrusive way to diagnose the problem..


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## strombomb (Jul 12, 2006)

*a little chain noise...*

Ok... so I re did the chains/guides in my 96 glx a few months ago. Its obdII with the double wide upper chain and had the old style guides and tensioner (the full hydraulic tensioner). So I did that and it ran real good, still does. When I first start it up though, there is a little chain noise, enough to notice without really trying to listen to it.
When I first noticed this, I bled the old tensioner and put it back in (old tensioner, new rail). No more noise. From what I've read though, this is a huge no no. So, just now, I put the new tension in again and it makes noise. Why shouldn't I use the old one? Why does the new one make noise? 
Please help.


----------



## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

Good question. Any advise Gary?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: a little chain noise... (strombomb)*

I'm not positive that you absolutely can't use the old tensioner with the new rail, but no one has shown that they're compatible dimensionally. It's possible that the old tensioner is putting more tension on the chain, which may be eliminating the noise. At the same time, this extra tension might cause accelerated wear on the upper tensioner rail, which wouldn't be good in the long run.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: a little chain noise... (VgRt6)*

You shouldn't use the tensioner bolt with the 'button' end with the plastic guide rail. The contact area is small and over time could crack the plastic. The older style guide rail that works with this has a groove in which the button rides, hence no problem.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: a little chain noise... (need_a_VR6)*

Yeah, that too!


----------



## mightymidget (Aug 16, 2007)

*Re: a little chain noise... (strombomb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *strombomb* »_Why shouldn't I use the old one? Why does the new one make noise? 


I may be way off, but from what I understand your using the new upper tensioner rail with new style bolt and getting noise, but with the old bolt and new style tensioner it runs ok. (which is screwy)
Could it have something to do with the way the 2 bolts are threaded differently and therefore the depth to which the bolts seat (if the bolt doesn't seat properly then the tension applied to the rail will be less and create a rattle)?
It was mentioned in this thread which describes a problem using the 2 different types of tensioner bolt when used with dizzy equipped motors.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2527218
Certainly the bolts are threaded entirely differently and would apply different pressures to the upper tensioner rail due to the amount of reach when fully seated. 


_Modified by mightymidget at 1:37 PM 1-31-2008_


----------



## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Hey Gary, do I have to lock the cams into position if I am just going to change the upper guide rail, and not remove the upper chain?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (leathermonkey)*

No. Just make sure everything is still timed correctly afterwards.


----------



## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Well, we went in to do my chains today, the upper part...The upper guide had a super small piece missing where it screws on, which I never found, and I pulled out 2 fairly large chunks of the lower guide rail. 
Time to drop the tranny and do the whole job. Thanks Gary for the DIY, and Chris K for being one hell of a good guy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (leathermonkey)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Good luck.


----------



## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Hey Gary, 
We got my car all back together, and the chain noise is gone. It has a really rough idle, is running rich, and sounds like its missing or something. Vag-Com says the MAF is bad (probably damaged somewhere in the process of tearing it all apart) We feel really good about doing the timing correctly. Would the timing being off cause these symptoms as well? I'm hoping its just the MAF, and we didnt make a mistake with timing the engine correctly. All the marks were dead on when we did it. What type of symptoms would we see if the timing was off, and wouldnt it throw a code if it was?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (leathermonkey)*

Does the car run better with the MAF unplugged? What did the VAG specifically tell you that let you know the MAF was messed up?


----------



## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Not sure which parameter it was (a friend was looking at it, and he said it was reading 8 instead of 2 or 3. I'm not sure what that ment, but he said it was the MAF. Im getting a rough idle... kind of like it wants to die out, and it sounds like its missing, the whole engine shakes a bit, and a rich mixture smell. When you rev it up to 2 or 3k, it sounds better... almost normal. With the MAF unplugged, it seems to run a bit worse, and a dash light comes on.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (leathermonkey)*

Using the VAG, check Block 032 in the engine control module. There should be numbers in the two left fields. Those will tell you if the MAF is bad. What are they?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

And are you sure the plug wires are hooked up correctly?


----------



## leathermonkey (Oct 27, 2007)

I replaced the plug wires and that did the trick!! Thanks for all your help in this big job Gary. Now I get to quit driving this damn minivan!


----------



## PeaceLoveNDubs (Jan 30, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

quick question- My dub's at 127K with the dreading noise of wearing chains. ill have to replace them soon but i was just wondering, is there any noticable difference in hp once the chains are replaced? I understand that the problem is mostly the guides, not the chains. but I have always wondered that.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (PeaceLoveNDubs)*

Unless the timing is actually off, replacing the chains and guides will have NO effect on engine power.


----------



## mightymidget (Aug 16, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Unless the timing is actually off, replacing the chains and guides will have NO effect on engine power.

not being funny or anything but wouldn't the excessive slack due to a worn tensiors and guides cause the timing to be off from standard?? Or would the difference be to small to affect anything??


----------



## Wish it was a DE (Nov 15, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mightymidget)*

this DIY is absolutely amazing thank you

















































http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mightymidget)*

You'd have to have a ridiculous amount of hain stretch for there to be any noticeable difference.


----------



## sgt snuffles (Aug 16, 2007)

is their a write up on removing a 02a vr tranny? so i can save some mechanical money and do it myself, just something that will prepare me when i get up the car so i have somewhat of an idea, i mean since i wanna replace clutch,fw,pp why not do chains?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (sgt snuffles)*

There's one for the 02J by FaelinGL. Not sure about the 02A.


----------



## dingrr (Jan 31, 2008)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Great looking DIY! I just have two questions.
First, I always thought sprockets should be changed along with chains (long history with bicycles and motorcycles both on and off road). As everyone notes, since you're in there, replace the chains even if they're not worn yet no one mentions changing the sprockets. So where is the logic in replacing the chains but not the sprockets?
Second, I just ordered the timing chain kit and was having trouble finding the correct rear main seal. You list part #068 198 171 and MJM Autohaus tells me it should be part #021 103 051C. Can you verify the correct application for a 2000 Jetta 12V VR6?
Again, great looking DIY and I can't wait to struggle through this project!
Here's to you


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (dingrr)*

It couldn't hurt to replace the sprockets, but it's not necessary IMO. The sprockets don't wear much, if at all. The chains don't either, but they do stretch. Too much stretch can affect timing slightly. That's likely why many people replace the chains along with the guides. If it weren't for the poorly designed guides, then most people would never even have to think about any of the timing-related parts, chains and sprockets included.
068198171 is the part number for the rear main seal on all 12v VR6 engines according to ETKA (the VW parts program). From what I've found, 021103051C is the part number for the rear main seal on the 24v VR6 engines. They may in fact be the same thing with different part numbers (wouldn't be the first time), but to be safe, I would order the 068 version for your 12v.


----------



## Moestradamus (Aug 16, 2005)

How many hours does this job take to do for a mechanic? I am getting 10 hour quotes.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Moestradamus)*

Takes me a good 12hrs working without a lift.


----------



## Moestradamus (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

How about with a lift?


----------



## Moestradamus (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

And does it really take 6 hours to take off the Tranny?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Moestradamus)*

If you've never done it before, yes ... and maybe longer. It's not an insignificant task in these cars.


----------



## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_It's not an insignificant task in these cars.

How long did it take us to remove that one bolt?


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (James 93SLC)*

It took over an hour to get the three tranny bracket bolts out. Who puts three inches of loctite on a bolt







? I used an air impact on those bolts when I did Eric's clutch and they were out it 30 seconds.


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_It took over an hour to get the three tranny bracket bolts out. Who puts three inches of loctite on a bolt







? I used an air impact on those bolts when I did Eric's clutch and they were out it 30 seconds.
















the ones that the mount sits under? wow those bolts can be a pain on their own, let alone with loctite


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (708VR6)*

They are the three in these two pics.


----------



## Michael62 (Mar 19, 2008)

*Re: Chain noise - HELP!*

Hi - first of all: thanks for a fantastic post on VR6 timing chains! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I have a problem with my VR6 and would very much like your feedback!
Car: VW Caravelle 1997 (98 model) VR6. Single upper chain with new type tensioner bolt.
1: Got the car a little over 2 years ago - it had 135.000 KM on the clock. Didn't know of VR6 chain noise at the time... Anyway it har chain noise but the seller agreed to pay most of the repair. Everything was changed at a VW dealer incl. a new clutch. I didn't see any of the old parts. The car ran as a dream after the repair - no noise.
2: After 1,5 years the chain noise started to appear periodically. I contacted the dealer and they said it would be a free repair. When they discovered that I had changed oil myself and used a non-VW approved oil they didn't want to do the repair for free. (I used a full-synt. oil 5w-50)
3) I checked the upper chain tensioner bolt myself and found that it was faulty - from time to time it would stick with the piston only 8-10 mm extended. I changed to a new bolt - but it didn't cure the noise.
4) Next stem I removed the upper shield and changed the upper guide rail ( the old wasn't really worn). Still chain noise.
5) Took the car to the dealer - prepared to pay for a repair myself. They tool the while thing apart (trans + both shields). There was no wear on any of the 4 rails! They decided to change both tensioners - but nothing else...








They put the stuff together again - but after a few KM the chain noise was back !







At least they did the repair for free.








6) Next I thought of the oil pump after reading about various problems here and in other forums. I changed the pump myself (could do it for more or less the cost a VW oil-pressure check!). Changed oil+filter. It actually seemed like the car was better for som 30 KM or so - but now the noise is back!!!
When changing the oilpump I also removed the upper chain cover. 
Chain can move sidewards in the entire width of the upper rail. Is that OK or is the chain worn???
Anyway the noise is still there and I'm getting really tired of this problem. Please give me som feedback if you have any ideas on this.
What is causing the chain noise when all my rails are intact !!??
BR Michael, Denmark.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Chain noise - HELP! (Michael62)*

The chain should not be able to move if all tensioners and guide are in place and intact. I would look into why the chain can move that much.
Also, don't confuse chain noise with excessive chain noise. Timing chains are inherently noisy and that noise doesn't necessarily indicate that something is wrong. What is important is if the chain noise is excessive, which is what happens when a guide or tensioner cracks or fails.
I would recommend that an experienced VR6 person listen to the engine. It would be good if you could post a sound clip of the noise so that we all can listen to it. Many of us on here know what noises are acceptable and what indicates a serious problem.


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## Michael62 (Mar 19, 2008)

*Re: Chain noise - HELP! (VgRt6)*

Hi Gary - thanks for your quick reply.
RE: Moving upper chain sidewards: When the upper cover is off, the upper tensioner bolt is gone - so the chain is untensioned. I was just wondering if the chain should be that "loose" sidewards or if it is worn for some strange reason? 
RE: Type of noise: I will try to post a soundclip - however I think the noise is very similar to the noise before the initial repair. It also fit the descriptions of being worst around 1200-1500 RPM (I guess above this RPM the chain noise drown in other engine noises...).
I can easily hear the chain noise while driving in the car (with the ventilation fan off or at step 1) - maybe that gives you an idea about the noise level.
Is it possible that the oilflow to the upper tensioner could be blocked or partly blocked??? When I had the oilpump and filter off, I tried to blow some compressed air backwards through the oil canale. 
(There is oíl on/in the tensioner bolt when it is removed).
Are there some valves or similar in the oil canale - e.g. to prevent backflow ???
The noise is there at all times - also right after cold start.
BR Michael


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Chain noise - HELP! (Michael62)*

The upper chain is pretty loose without the tensioner installed. I'd guess that what you're seeing is normal.
I'd really need to hear a sound clip of the noise. Otherwise i'd just be speculating.
The oil feed hole for the upper tensioner can easily be obstructed by sealant for the upper cover. You're supposed to be careful when applying the sealant around this area and especially not use too much (as it can travel and squeeze into the feed hole).


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## tdubbs (Mar 24, 2007)

i didn't read through the whole post, i should. but i wanted to ask a question. would it be ok to put in new cams at the same time that i redo the chains? just curious if it'd be a bad idea.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (tdubbs)*

Nope. It's the perfect time to put new cams in.


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## tdubbs (Mar 24, 2007)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

sweeet, much thanks for the info. and for what seems to be an awesome diy


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## Chan Baby (Feb 12, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Thanx! buti have a question. It made that sound but i didnt think anythign of it







And now it starts but REALLY REALLY rough. more than one clinkin noise. What are the chances that i bent some valves and more problems are wrong with my car?


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## magz0r (Jun 27, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (Chan Baby)*

Bump for a true masterpiece of a DIY. I know there is no way I would have attempted doing this procedure without a pictoral like this. 
Quick couple questions...I just started re-assembly and I snapped one of the 13 small lower T.C. cover bolts off in the block. The Bentley says it's a M6, but does anyone know what size exactly (M6 x what)?
Also, out of curiosity, would it be possible to cause valve damage by turning the engine over _by hand_ if the timing was off? Or would it be pretty much impossible to cause that amount of pressure? 
TIA!


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## jaystone (Jun 12, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

subscribed


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (magz0r)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magz0r* »_Quick couple questions...I just started re-assembly and I snapped one of the 13 small lower T.C. cover bolts off in the block. The Bentley says it's a M6, but does anyone know what size exactly (M6 x what)?

Not sure. Why not remove one of the other 12 and measure it? If you only have a ruler/tape with English units, multiply the thread length by 25.4 to get millimeters.


_Quote, originally posted by *magz0r* »_Also, out of curiosity, would it be possible to cause valve damage by turning the engine over _by hand_ if the timing was off? Or would it be pretty much impossible to cause that amount of pressure? 
TIA!









You'd stop trying to force it long before doing any damage ... unless you're the Hulk or were using a REALLY long wrench.


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## WannaCorrado (Apr 30, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I'm doing this work now, and this guide is of GREAT HELP so far, along with the bentley manual. The additional entry for people who had the head off is AWESOME. 
thanks to the authors


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## FOURVWS (Jul 26, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Thanks Gary for the great post on timing chain installing. I've got a question on this. I am replacing the upper guide railks on my 97 GTI VR6. From the Bently Manual on this car it shows the pointer on the intermediate shaft inner sprocket pointing up when the crank sprocket
pointer (ground tooth) is lined up with the rear crank bearing joint. Your picture shows it pointed down. Is this a difference between the MK3 and MK4 engines? Also On my MK3, I can't get all the TDC marks to line up. I.E. If I line up the front crank pulley with the timing mark, the intermediate sprocket pointer and the crank sprocket ground tooth will be off slightly, about 1/8" from where they need to be. Do I need tp correct this?


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## masonr (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

is this the same for the mk3 vr6 models? I am misfiring in cylinder 3 but the motor is now makes some bad rattling noises. Thanks


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (masonr)*

My timing was off badly. Car ran like poo. Turns out the chain skipped a tooth or toothes on the cam sprockets. I used the bentley and (moreso) this writeup for specifics on setting the timing and knowing what I could and could not get to.
Most valuable thing in here is: turn the engine over twice to see if all is lined up before you freak out about too much slack in the chain along the front side.
Awesome post and thankx!!!!!


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## superhack (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Hey Gary,
I decided it was time for me to change my timing chains a while back when my cam position sensor was showing up with errors, but while I was waiting for the parts to come in the mail the car died.
So I took hauled my car up to my friends shop and started to change the timing chain and when I got in there I had a few more problems than I really expected... As in parts completely missing.

The upper guide was almost completely gone, all but the part that attaches at the top.

The lower guide was completely destroyed and the lower tensioner was broken apart so much that the piston was on the chain.


I found most of the parts, but I guess that some of it probably ended up getting ground up into the oil.


Then while I had the valve cover off I noticed that one of the lobes on the longer cam was kind of flattened out and the lifter had some holes in it...


So after I found that, it was time to rebuild the engine... Once I finally got the head off I realized that three of the intake valves were bent, 1, 3, and 5. 

It was a lot of work and unfortunately I don't have the organization or patience that you have to do a diy on how to rebuild the engine, but I must say thanks for all of the different write-ups you have done. They have all helped me to find where things go and how to get everything off and back on again.
This timing chain replacement is very important to do when you hear that noise, or else it will cost you a couple thousand dollars in the long run. Just thought it a good idea to let you know the effects of putting it off for a while. 
Thanks a lot to you and Mike(FaelinGL) for your awesome write-ups.
-Brad


_Modified by superhack at 3:34 PM 8-25-2008_


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## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (superhack)*

bumpy for awesome write up... saved the day for me!


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## mightymidget (Aug 16, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (superhack)*


_Quote, originally posted by *superhack* »_
So I took hauled my car up to my friends shop and started to change the timing chain and when I got in there I had a few more problems than I really expected... As in parts completely missing.


That has got to be the worst condition guides i've ever seen. Do you think most of this happend when it had the final major failure? It's hard to believe that this ran with a lower tensioner and upper guide that has failed in such a way... If it did, what did it sound like??


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## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mightymidget)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mightymidget* »_
That has got to be the worst condition guides i've ever seen. Do you think most of this happend when it had the final major failure? It's hard to believe that this ran with a lower tensioner and upper guide that has failed in such a way... If it did, what did it sound like?? 


I am wondering what mine looks like. I just turned 190K, all OEM.
I know I am on borrowed time at this point.


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## SlammedGolfIII (Nov 18, 2003)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (superhack)*


_Quote, originally posted by *superhack* »_Hey Gary,
So after I found that, it was time to rebuild the engine... Once I finally got the head off I realized that three of the intake valves were bent, 1, 3, and 5. 


_Modified by superhack at 3:34 PM 8-25-2008_

Holy gangster lean!!!!


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## Mk1 fa'days (Apr 24, 2008)

very informative


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## broken record (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

definitely watching this! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (broken record)*

The pictures of the trashed TC parts on that VR are amazing!


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## xanthus12v (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

thanks for the write up.
very helpful. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bergenvr6 (Jan 22, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (mightymidget)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mightymidget* »_
That has got to be the worst condition guides i've ever seen. Do you think most of this happend when it had the final major failure? It's hard to believe that this ran with a lower tensioner and upper guide that has failed in such a way... If it did, what did it sound like?? 

seriously, what did it sound like?
i think i have to do my chains as well haven't opened it up to see if it's the upper or lower, but i'm at 126k ...
definitely don't want to bend any valves


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## rigger (Jul 25, 2000)

Yet another satisfied customer.
I just replaced the Upper Timing Chain guide and tensioner bolt.
The guide was broken and the extra slack (probably) caused the upper chain to skip a tooth.
The mis-timed cams threw a VAG-COM code:
17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incor. Correlation
P1340 -- 35-00 - -
I didn't pull the trans or anything, just the upper chain cover. I had to pull the front cam gear to get the guide in, but other than that, it was as the DIY explains.
It is worth noting that even VW dealerships don't know their parts sometimes.
MK4 single chain guide part number for the AFP engine is as the DIY says:
* 071 109 513 - upper timing chain guide rail AFP engine.
But the VW dealership sold me a 021 part, which is for MK3 dual chain AAA engine. 
* 021 109 513 - upper timing chain guide rail AAA engine
Caused me a delay in finishing....
Some eye candy:


















_Modified by rigger at 3:26 PM 12-30-2008_


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## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (rigger)*

uhhh, theres pieces missing brosef... drop your pan and get them out asap


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## rigger (Jul 25, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VRsuper6)*

Won't they just sit in there or will they gum up the oil pump??


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## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (rigger)*

what about clogging your oil pump??? thats what im thinking...


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## meeow_mixxx (Jan 23, 2002)

Can somebody tell me how to remove the upper tensioner rail (closest to firewall) without removing the lower chain cover? I cant figure out how to slide it off the guide pin without it hitting the lower cover......


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## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (meeow_mixxx)*

you cant, it slides onto a dowel, you have to take the lower cover off to remove it...
24. With the upper chain removed, the upper tensioner rail should fall down through the hole in the exposed headgasket, as indicated by the red arrow in the picture below. The tensioner rail pivots on a pin, which is indicated by the yellow arrow in the picture below.









25. To remove the upper tensioner rail, simply slide it off of the pivot pin, as indicated by the yellow arrows in the picture below. You do not need to remove the pivot pin.










_Modified by VRsuper6 at 2:32 PM 12-30-2008_


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## meeow_mixxx (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VRsuper6)*



VRsuper6 said:


> you cant, it slides onto a dowel, you have to take the lower cover off to remove it...
> Which means that the transmission has to be dropped, correct?
> 
> 
> ...


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VRsuper6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRsuper6* »_what about clogging your oil pump??? thats what im thinking...

There's a screen to keep that from happening.


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## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (rigger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rigger* »_Won't they just sit in there or will they gum up the oil pump??


Try draining your oil and screen it to see what turns up. Depending how far the engine was run, majority of those pieces may or may not show up.


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## mk4vr6 $ pit (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

amazing. nuff said


----------



## rigger (Jul 25, 2000)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

That's what I thought. I'll drop the oil pan in the spring/summer when it's not -15degC (5degF) here in Toronto just for kicks... Until then, the car seems to be running as smoothly as it should.


----------



## taroy1 (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (meeow_mixxx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *meeow_mixxx* »_Can somebody tell me how to remove the upper tensioner rail ... without removing the lower chain cover?

I am up the same creek in a chicken wire canoe. I am not too excited about the idea of attempting to drop the transmission in my modest little garage and limited experience. But, it appears that I have no other option. I just need some encouragment and some suggestions on how to do it without a car lift or a transmission jack.
I have 120K on the old style VR6 in my '94 Jetta GLX. While taking on the task to replacing my valve seals, I made a sad discovery. As is described on page 1 of this DIY, I found that my old style upper tensioner rail is worn through the phenolic that was riveted to the metal backing plate. Most of the phenolic is gone on the trailing edge as are the two rivets. Who knows how long it has been that way. Do I have to worry about what happened to the bits of phenolic or the rivets? Here's what it looks like.








The upper guide rail also shows signs of wear but is not cracked.








That one I can replace no problem. I can't see the condition of the lower tensioner or guide rail.
So, who has some good suggestions on how to creatively pull the transmission without a car lift or a transmission jack? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-T


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (taroy1)*

Check out the transmission removal DIY by FaelinGL. It does a great job of explaining how to get it out without a lift or transmission jack.


----------



## KoppyVr6 (Jan 28, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

im scared for this step..


----------



## rigger (Jul 25, 2000)

If anyone is interested, I believe that DSM makes the parts for the timing chain tensoners. The plastic is called "Stanyl"
There's an interesting PDF available at:
http://www.dsm.com/le/en_US/st...s.htm
http://www.dsm.com/le/static/s...s.pdf
(there is a picture of a W10 engine on the 5th page using the parts from DSM)











_Modified by rigger at 10:07 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## CorradoMagic (Apr 11, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

remove the pan to clean out any debris. The plastic can break down & clog the pumpp screen. The larger pieces can cause oil starvation & damage over a long period of time http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Check out the transmission removal DIY by FaelinGL. It does a great job of explaining how to get it out without a lift or transmission jack. 

Just know that it's way easier in a Mk4 then a Mk3 it's nice not to have that motor mount cup on the subframe in the way. I was very excited when a trans almost fell out onto my head today. Oh and $#()*@# that power steering line.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (need_a_VR6)*

Did you remove the axle flanges from the diff? I've only done it with them in and it was a PITA. And yes, that power steering line SUCKS!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Nope I leave them in unless the trans gets rebuilt. I hate smelling/covering myself in gear oil. It is MUCH easier with them (at least the pass side) out though! One other nice Mk4 feature is the cv to trans flange bolts are easier to get to and remove. I can probably do an axle in 10mins.


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## wav3form (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (need_a_VR6)*

It may have been said already but is it wise to change just the upper guide rail and nothing else? That I can do on my own. My '01 only has 74k miles and I haven't heard any noise but I get paranoid about these parts wearing and letting go. Is it worth the time to do that or should I just have the entire job done to get it over with?


----------



## VRnasty08 (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (wav3form)*

thanks for the write up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif im doing this asap.well once i get income tax money.along with accessory belt.70C thermostat and other things


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## taroy1 (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (taroy1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *taroy1* »_I am up the same creek in a chicken wire canoe. ... So, who has some good suggestions on how to creatively pull the transmission without a car lift or a transmission jack?

Success! New timing chain, guides, and tensioners are in along with a clutch kit while the transmission was out. Getting the tranny out was interesting for this first-timer. I ended up using an engine support bar from Harbor Freight that straddled the engine compartment. It held the engine up to take weight off the mounts. The trick with the transmission was to use strong ratcheting tiedown straps slung over the engine support bar to gently lower and raise it. Took some creative maneuvering but now I have a new merit badge.
Not a week after finally getting the car back on the road and running great, my heater core gave up the ghost yesterday. It looked like a Holywood smoke machine from the vents. Looks like my next big project has been identified.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (taroy1)*

How much was the engine support bar and Harbor Freight? Do you have the part number?


----------



## taroy1 (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_How much was the engine support bar and Harbor Freight? Do you have the part number?

It was $49.99, item #96524. Quite heavy duty and worked like a champ!
http://www.harborfreight.com/c...96524


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (taroy1)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## din (Mar 6, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Just joined to reply to this topic








I have a Mk3 Vr6 golf, 135k on the clock.
I am a mechanic (work for Bmw) in Swindon, UK.
But this guide was fantastic, did the job in a weekend with my brother (previous owner.....who now has an R32).
So, thanks very much for the "how to" it was very usefull, we actually printed it out an laminated it for ref whilst doing the job








Here are a few pics......... thanks again































































































You get the idea


----------



## rowdydog (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

FAntastic write up!!!
You really are the king of Chains!!
I have a question, any input would be most appreciated. 
I have a 2001 with the newer setup. Rescent purchase. I have a code P0340 which I assumed was an issue with the timing. Using ur invaluable threads I figured id peek in and have a look. Seems from what i could find the back cam jumped a couple of teeth on the chain. the cause was a cam tension bold that was stuck half way in and not giving the correct tension on the chain. Also found that the upper guide was cracked in half maybe due to the chain flutter. Not alot of wear on the guide and tensioner. My question is after putting back together with a new guide and tensioner bold and doing the two revolutions my alignment plates are right on the edge of fitting. The slots in the end of ther cams are almost but not perfectly horizontal. Do you think this is chain stretch or wear or is it possible that there could have been a jump on the intermediary sprockets. I have done what I could to try and check on the lower chain and it appears to be ok but it is hard to tell when only viewing from ther top side. Other than doing a complete tear down is there any thing you would suggest? Will the car run ok with this close w/cam timing. 
Again great thread for bruised knuckle crowd!


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (rowdydog)*

Did you verify that the intermediate sprocket was set correctly before retiming the upper chain? If you did, then it's probably chain stretch. If you didn't, then the intermediate sprocket may not have been in the correct position. As stated in the DIY, there are four different intermediate sproket positions when the crank is set to #1 TDC. Only two of them are the correct position for installing and timing the upper chain. If the other two are used, then the upper chain will be off by 1/2 tooth (~3° or so IIRC).


----------



## rowdydog (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

When doing this alignment I aligned notch from crankshaft to noth in housing (TDC). Viewed that the intermediary sprocket notch was visable and that the cam groves were above C/L. I do not know if there is any way to verify that the intermediary sprocket is off without having the entired upper and lower covers off. I will recheck tonight if there is any other view from the top to confirm.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (rowdydog)*

If you did that BEFORE you took the upper chain off, then my guess is it's correct. The cams being a little off is probably due to chain stretch.


_Modified by VgRt6 at 2:17 PM 3-11-2009_


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## rowdydog (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Do you know if the upper chain can jump a tooth on the intermediary sprocket if the side casing is still in place. I tried this last night to see if it was possible. I removed the chain from the cam sprockets and was unable to move it one link on the intermediary. I did this to see if this would have affected the timing. Because I had the cam jump a couple of teeth I assumed it could have also jumped on the intermediary.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (rowdydog)*

It's possible I guess. If the cams are that close though, then it's probably not worth worrying about. You likely wouldn't notice a thing if you fixed it to be perfect.


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## rowdydog (Feb 8, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Thanks for your help and effort in making this one timeless post!


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## Deezy (Jan 3, 2009)

*FV-QR*

my rear seal had a spring in it.... anyways when i got the llower and upper timing chain covers back on i noticed the spring is sticking out over the crank can i just rip that spring out or is it a must have thing?


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Deezy)*

The spring is critical for there being no leak from the seal. It's there to apply pressure to keep the seal against the crank.
What do you mean that the spring is "sticking out over the crank"? Can you post a picture?


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## Deezy (Jan 3, 2009)

*FV-QR*









Goes to show pay attention to every detail because nobody like to backtrack! i messed up leaving the flywheel bolts in the crank i assume. The lower timing chain cover can come off by itself correct? i didnt see a reason it wouldnt but i may be wrong.


_Modified by Deezy at 8:06 PM 3-15-2009_


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## Rick08 (Feb 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Deezy)*

Can anyone help me out? 
I seem to have some extra slack on the upper chain guide side near the intermediate gear. 
I made sure that the chain was tight across the cam sprockets and then made sure it was tight going down the chain guide and all the slack was on the tensioner side. i
put the tension bolt in and spun the engine twice to check my work everything lines up but there still is some extra slack.

have any ideas why?








edit: its all new chains and guides with the updated bolt and rail


_Modified by Rick08 at 4:53 PM 3-16-2009_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Deezy)*

Yes, the lower cover can come off by itself. Take it off and replace that seal (or at the very least, see if the spring is OK and will go back into place).


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Rick08)*

There can't be slack on the guide side and everything still line up. Can you post some pictures?


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## Deezy (Jan 3, 2009)

*FV-QR*

i did not even think about the spring being bent! that was a $30 part, it should be ok though i wanted to work on it today but i have just been to sick. my car has been out for a week and a half now







alls i needed to do was replace the upper guide rail but since i bought the set i went for it, 122k miles and the guides show very little wear except where the lower bolt on the upper rail the plastic was broken and clattered against the bolt i assume


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## Deezy (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Deezy)*

is there a way to get around a clutch alignment tool?? sounds like a dumb question to me but its worth a shot because i cant find one locally


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## Rick08 (Feb 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (VgRt6)*

here are pictures. that was with the upper cover installed and the bolt put in.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Deezy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Deezy* »_is there a way to get around a clutch alignment tool?? sounds like a dumb question to me but its worth a shot because i cant find one locally 

Find a deep socket that fits into the clutch disk as tightly as possible and use that. I have a Stanley 14mm socket that works perfectly. You can also get a wooden dowel and sand it down until it fits. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. It just needs to be the correct diameter. Don't try and go without something. You don't want to have the pressure plate tightened up and not be able to get the transmission input shaft into the clutch disk.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Rick08)*

If you put the upper cover on, install the tensioner bolt and torque it, and then rotate the crank at least two times and then set the crank to #1 TDC, do the cams line up properly?


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## Rick08 (Feb 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (VgRt6)*

yes they do. that is why i am confused. the cams line up and the crank pulley mark as well. the intermediate gear is at the 6 o'clock mark with the pointer lined up with the thrust washer.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Rick08)*

It sounds like it's OK then. As long as the slack is not enough to cause the chain to jump a tooth, then it shouldn't be a problem.


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## Rick08 (Feb 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (VgRt6)*

im gonna try and re-do it tomorrow. it doesn't seem there's enough slack in the chain to make it skip. Ill update tomorrow. maybe i just got a bad chain...


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Rick08)*

How does the new chain compare with the old?


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## Rick08 (Feb 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (VgRt6)*

the new chains i got are made by Iwis. there are from mjmautohaus. part number on box 021 109 503a. the old chains have "sachs" and "france" stamped on the links. not sure if they are original chains or not. but there is no other differences between the two other then the new one is clean.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Rick08)*

Lay one on top of the other and see if they're the same length.


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## Rick08 (Feb 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (VgRt6)*

the chains were the same. i fixed my problem







the extra slack was from the cams. they were slightly off







my homebrew DIY style cam locker allowed them to move ever so slightly. so i stuck a socket on the end and lined them back up and the slack is gone now. turned the motor over a couple times and everything is good!







thanks for the help! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Rick08)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Deezy (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (VgRt6)*

spring was not bent







great DIY and support


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## littlejohnsVWheads (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

wow great DIY. thanks


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## needaveedub (Jan 22, 2001)

bump, need this for tommorow! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Deezy (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: (needaveedub)*

got her going now the motor fired right up and has no clatter at 3thousand rrpms sounds soooo much better








oh yea why does my right blinker blink fast now??? the lights both work. is it a code?
and i have 2 bolts i have no idea where they go







ill post pics of the later see if anyone knows!


_Modified by Deezy at 3:59 PM 3-21-2009_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Deezy)*

Great DIY! I've done timing belt and even head replacements on my 16v's but I swore I'd leave the VR6 to the pros when I bought it. However, if I'd seen this I might have taken a shot at it!
*EDIT:* Oops never mind the question I had here before, just read the first page a little more carefully and answered it for myself 



_Modified by Mr Black at 6:46 PM 3-23-2009_


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Does the oil pan need to come off on a mk3?? Do you have to drain the oil??


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## taroy1 (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: (Grabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grabbit* »_Does the oil pan need to come off on a mk3?? Do you have to drain the oil??

Nope. The oil and oil pan can remain in place. However, I took the opportunity to replace my seaping oil pan gasket which was a simple task.


_Modified by taroy1 at 10:03 AM 3-26-2009_


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## Deezy (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

does the oil have to come out??? only the oil that wont fit in your oil pan


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (Deezy)*

How long should this take with basic hand tools?? I comlpeted my swap in my MK2 and installed cams but thats as far as I've been. I figure a couple hours to drop the tranny, another couple to get the chains out and back in. An hour making sure everything is kosher and another couple getting it buttoned back up. So about a full 8 hours working non stop.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

8 hours would be VERY fast if it's your first time. I would give yourself a solid 12 hours the first time just to be safe.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_8 hours would be VERY fast if it's your first time. I would give yourself a solid 12 hours the first time just to be safe.

well in about an hour and a half I have the front end off, radiator out and valve cover off. I forgot how long this crap takes. Anyways, the top guide rail and tensioner looks fine. Just as they did about a year and a half ago when I put cams in.
I get the rattle at about 1200-16-1700 rpm on both rev up and rev down. My question is, would a falty tensioner bolt cause the rattle alone if everything else is kosher?? Does the bottom chain make as much noise?? I was thinking maybe low oil pressure or a blocked oil passage to the tensioner bolt


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

So I ripped everything apart and I got the valve cover off thinking I would see the guide rail missing some pieces. Well its still intact, in fact everything is looking pretty good. I put cams in about a year and a half ago and while I was in there I replaced the tensioner bolt just to be safe, everything else was kosher.
The only thing I can think of that might be causing the noise is that I may have got some sealer in the oil passage to the tensioner bolt. I also looped the oil cooler coolant lines together because of a leak, could thia have caused excessive oil temps/low pressure to the tensioner causing slack? On cold starts you can hear the timing noise a lot les but its still there. I'm kinda hesitating to tear anymore into it if everything looks good












_Modified by Grabbit at 11:33 AM 3-28-2009_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

Things like this are very difficult to diagnose, especially over the internet. Timing chain noise is normal. It's the nature of the beast. Excessive noise is not normal. The tough thing is how do you determine what's normal and what's excessive?
Since you've gone this far, I would remove the upper cover and check for a blocked oil hole. You could also then check the lower parts. Unless you find something wrong, going any further than that is probably not necessary.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Things like this are very difficult to diagnose, especially over the internet. Timing chain noise is normal. It's the nature of the beast. Excessive noise is not normal. The tough thing is how do you determine what's normal and what's excessive?
.

Well I know what it was like just after the swap and I have noticed it getting proggresively worse. I know its difficult to diagnose over the internet but let put it this way, after reading all these threads seeing carnage and even listening to sound clips I was very supprised not to see more damage. I'm off to pop the upper cover off............


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

*Re: (Grabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grabbit* »_How long should this take with basic hand tools?? I comlpeted my swap in my MK2 and installed cams but thats as far as I've been. I figure a couple hours to drop the tranny, another couple to get the chains out and back in. An hour making sure everything is kosher and another couple getting it buttoned back up. So about a full 8 hours working non stop.

If the chains are for your MK2, i would highly suggest thinking about pulling the motor. I've come to find out that its not very easy to get the trans back into a mk2 VR6.


----------



## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (WeeZFan69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WeeZFan69* »_
If the chains are for your MK2, i would highly suggest thinking about pulling the motor. I've come to find out that its not very easy to get the trans back into a mk2 VR6.

Well I did the swap and have sinced parted with my engine hoist. It shouldn't be that hard, I dont have any power stearing lines or Ac bulls hit to get in the way.
I ended up pulling the upper timing chain cover only to find everything intact. The only spot of wear was some discoloration of the upper tensioner, no grooves.


----------



## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

Does the upper tensioner bolt look OK?


----------



## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Does the upper tensioner bolt look OK?

Yes, i replaced it about a year and a half ago when the cams went in. I'm going to replace it again just as a precaution.


----------



## DubZmk3VR (Jun 14, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

bump great thread


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## asdVR6 (Apr 8, 2009)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Hello, at me a question, whether it is possible old top tensioner bolt and upper cover to replace with the new sample (plastic)? What of them is more reliable?



P.S. I apologise for my English


----------



## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: (asdVR6)*

yes you can replace the old style with the new style. but for you, you need to keep the older style if you have a distributor, since it has the hole in it. also the new tensioer bolt will fit in the old cover http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## asdVR6 (Apr 8, 2009)

*Re: (VRsuper6)*

Yes, I know. Disturbs reliability of plastic?


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## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: (asdVR6)*

the new ones are metal also


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## asdVR6 (Apr 8, 2009)

*Re: (VRsuper6)*

New cover metal inside??? 

art. VAG 021 109 509 E
Mine upper cover 




_Modified by asdVR6 at 7:14 AM 4-8-2009_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (asdVR6)*

You can use the new tensioner/bolt if you thread your distro side cover the whole way through. You need a BIG tap to do it, I modded a used new style tensioner bolt into a tap by grinding three flats in the threads and just did it myself. Pain in the rear but it worked fine.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (VRsuper6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRsuper6* »_the new ones are metal also

The older upper rails are phenolic (?) riveted to a metal backing. The newer upper rail is all plastic.
There are actually two versions of the newer rail. The first one was black and did not have a metal sleeve in the pivot hole. The second version, which is the one that's currently sold, is yellow and has a metal sleeve in the pivot hole.


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## asdVR6 (Apr 8, 2009)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Thanks for your answer. 

And,
the sizes and the pivot hole upper rail (plastic ) and its tensioner R32 V24 differs from upper rail and its tensioner VR6 12 (with double Timing chain)?
I wish to upgrade the VR6 to 3,0L and to establish cam-shafts shrick. I wish to establish a new upper rail together with tensioner bolt for reliability.
It will turn out to establish the new tensioner bolt and upper rail from R32 V24?




_Modified by asdVR6 at 10:55 PM 4-8-2009_


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Even though I have a Mk3, this write up was a great guide for this job. Thanks to all who made this DIY.
Dan


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## gypsydoctor (Mar 26, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I just did a timing chain job on my daughter's 2000 GTI VR6 @127K miles. The symptoms were clattering sounds that came and went, and eventually a VAGCOM code 17748 "Camshaft position sensor / Engine speed sensor incor. correlation". The code was due to the chain skipping a tooth, probably on the small intermediate sprocket. I did a compression test, which was OK.
When I pulled the upper chain cover, the upper guide rail was completely gone except for 1 inch at the upper mounting bolt. I could see that the guide pin (inside the lower cover plate) was loose and had grooves in it, and I pulled out a few chunks of guide plastic that were floating around.
When I pulled the lower cover, I found that the lower chain guide was split in two pieces but the pieces were sitting "in place". I found small chunks of plastic wedged into the spaces of the lower chain. Apparently these pieces got dragged into the guide causing it to split.
I also found that the smaller sprocket on the intermediate shaft had a broken tooth and also a lot of wear. It looks like the upper chain went out of alignment and was not rolling straight onto the sprocket. The guide pin that holds the lower end of the upper plastic guide rail had deep grooves in it where the chain had been dragging over it. The broken sprocket tooth probably was caused by plastic that fell on top of the sprocket and got chewed up, causing the chain to skip as well.
I decided to drop the oil pan to see what was in there, and found several tablespoons full of plastic chunks and the sprocket tooth. Much of the plastic was up in the input screen area of the oil pump. The plastic does not seem dense enough to count on it staying in place in the bottom of the oil pan. In all, there were hundreds of plastic fragments, the largest about an inch square.
The other tension rails were slightly grooved, but each had deeper pitting in one area.
The lesson here is if this problem is suspected, don't wait too long before fixing it. It would be really bad to damage the sprocket on the crankshaft, or for the chain to skip enough to cause valve damage. Also just because the clattering noise subsides, it does not mean the problem has gone away. The big plastic chunks that were bouncing around may have gotten chewed up.


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## theslamforevryone (Jul 3, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (gypsydoctor)*

Hi, and thank you so much for posting this DIY. Its been very helpful and very accurate. I would send some beers your way but im short on what would normally pay for this job to be done. And I have a minor question I hope you experts could definitively clarify (your expert assumptions are better than my inexperienced ones thats for sure). And I REALLY appreciate anything.
So my question. Its more of an oddity than problem (though 'something' is or was wrong). 
What I have done. I have removed the upper cover to the upper timing area, and found this: Upper guide rail has a hairline crack half way down, and the top of the bolt hole is missing (on the lower hole of the upper rail). 
The oddity: Ok so when sitting in the driveway I rev the engine and hear nothing but engine (no noises at all, sounds good - reason why I cannot produce a sound clip). I put in first and start to drive. I then start to hear a very light clicking noise (hard to describe, but maybe more of a tap, but every 1 second repetitively) starting @ ~ 12-1500 rpm. It gets louder with the rpm's going up (consequently due to the engine louder as well). 
Heres the real odd: The noise completely disappears RIGHT after 4000rpm. I keep in 2nd (does in all gears) and stay @ 4200, then let off the gas so it drops back to 4000, instantly bringing back that tick noise. 
Question: Could that missing piece cause the noise to appear ONLY in gear [somehow???]? Or maybe that hairline crack makes the chain hit the edge when in gear (maybe pressure?) 
Car has 113,988 miles. 
Please, im wondering if I really need to spend the 5-600 for the lower section to be looked at when that piece essentially fell into the oil pan already, and replacing the upper guide rail will solve the noise. 
Thank you for reading, and hope you can give me your best guess (whether its bad or good I need a better opinion than my inexperienced one).


----------



## theslamforevryone (Jul 3, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (theslamforevryone)*

Heh and actually I have no idea how to get the upper rail in with the engine in there...the fuel injector pump (silver) is directly behind the timing area, and I tried every which way to get that upper rail in but to no avail. That little silver pump looking thing is completely in the way and I dont know if its safe to remove (undo clips and pull off). 
Can I please get some help or is this thread loss of visitors now...


_Modified by theslamforevryone at 4:46 PM 6-3-2009_


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (theslamforevryone)*

The noise you're hearing is from the intake manifold "shifter rod" and not the timing chains - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1976181.


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## theslamforevryone (Jul 3, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Even while in gear? I had another topic where I found out one noise was definitely that. But I didnt know it would happen only in gear and stop at 4000. 
And any idea how I can get around or over that fuel cylidrical piece? You put the upper guide rail in from below the gasket because you had the tranny and such out, well I just have the upper cover off, nothing else. Here is the exact image: http://img36.imageshack.us/img...z.jpg where you can see that silver fuel pump type thing, and the rail can only go over it (I cannot figure out any other way, there is a major bracket below it that does not bend so it cannot go below.).
I Really APPRECIATE the posting, I have been working on this for several days now and need my car back up running soon...so any help, helps!
THANKS.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (theslamforevryone)*

Are you talking about the fuel pressure regulator? That shouldn't get in the way of replacing the upper guide.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_You can use the new tensioner/bolt if you thread your distro side cover the whole way through. You need a BIG tap to do it, I modded a used new style tensioner bolt into a tap by grinding three flats in the threads and just did it myself. Pain in the rear but it worked fine.

I've used the new style upper tensioner rail and bolt on all three of my distro VR6's and it was plug and play. No tapping of anything. I just torqued the tensioner bolt to spec. All three cars have been running for years since then.
Am I missing something here? Were there two different upper timing covers on distributor VR's. This isn't the first time I've heard of this.


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## theslamforevryone (Jul 3, 2008)

*Re: (slc92)*

@VgRt6, I appreciate the help...
The fuel regulator 'was' in the way, but I just had to push down a little on it, and flex the upper rail slightly so it would slide under the top left gear. Got it in great. 
The noise I mentioned earlier in this post while in gear, you are right. The rod gets stuck when the pump pulls it down, making it vibrate. I need a new pump end as the little nob on the shifter rod seemed to wear the inside of the slots on the pump (hard to explain). 
Overall, this guide helped big time and I couldnt have done it w/out it. Now I saved over 600!! Thanks again.


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## kydnav (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Great DIY!! I am thinking that I may have to use it, but wanted to know what everyone out here thinks. I took a quick video of my engine running and am wondering if you all would be so kind as to confirm or deny my suspicions. A little more back ground information. Every once in a while (although it appears to be getting farther and farther apart) the noise will stop all together and the engine sound as quiet as it should. As of late it seems to have gotten a little louder or pronounced. My car is 2001 and it has about 95k on it. Here is the link. 
Thanks! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tsd0WUTqB8


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (kydnav)*

Wow, my guess is you're going to need more than the timing chain DIY. Sounds like there are major issues with the head, possibly one or more bad cam lobes or lifters. Honestly, I wouldn't drive the car until the valve cover came off to inspect what is wrong. That's some of the worst noise from a VR6 I've ever heard.


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## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Nice write up! I'm going to be doing this soon where can a get a rear main seal and is it also called Rear crankshaft seal??


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (ZachA)*

The rear main seal and rear crankshaft seal are the same.
I got mine from germanautoparts.com when I did it a few weeks ago.


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## Jetblu (Nov 9, 2008)

In your update, ""IMPORTANT INFO FOR THOSE REINSTALLING AN UPPER TIMING CHAIN AFTER A HEAD REBUILD OR HEADGASKET REPLACEMENT
"" , it talks about removing the upper timing chain with out removing the lower timing chain cover. How is this accomplished without access to the intermediate shaft? Is is possible to replace this chain without removing the lower timing chain cover?
I am new to the Vr6(had it only a few days) and trying to get as much info before tearing into it. 
Thanks for the great post.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Jetblu)*

Most people just remove one of the cam sprockets and disconnect the upper chain. The chain is not actually removed or replaced. This allows you to pull the head without removing the transmission and lower timing chain cover.


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## sannouni (Jun 16, 2009)

i have to start by saying that this is a very comprehensive write up
i'm new to the world of VW, i've worked on audis and VWs before but i have never owned one untill about 3 days ago.
the engine is making a very distinct ticking noise from the timing chain cover area, you will find below some links to videos of the engine.
the problem is as follows
*when the engine is cold, there is barely any ticking noise, its relatively ok
* As the engine warms up, the ticking noise increases accordingly, once i rev the engine, the noise fades out (or just gets lost with the noise of the engine), and then the intake shifter rod noise kicks in
* i removed the tensioner bolt to inspect it, and it was not extended all the way out. it was extended about half way out, and stuck in a very wierd position (plunger is not ligned up with the bolt), 
*cleaned the tensioner bolt, primed the bolt with oil as discribed in the write up, and installed it back (the newer style bolt, it's a 2001 Jetta GLX VR6), and started the engine, the noise was still present
i would greatly appreciate your help and advice
the videos are here (please dont mind the mess in the engine bay as this is for testing purposes only)
when i got the car 3 days ago, the engine had a misfire, the problem was the coil pack, but the ticking noise is very audible here (also there is a hole in the exhaust pipe near the engine bay)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c2m0m08rF4
2 days ago, i fixed the coil pack issue (thanks to VWVortex for the DIY coil repair write up). you will notice that the noise is not there at the begining of the video, but it develops louder and louder as the video is nearing the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxdHsJe_Vag
today, working on the engine bay area. video shows in more detail, the ticking noise development
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-2V2Z0P9oU

and finally, even more detail, the engine bay video, concentrating the microphone on the ticking sound, also the exhaust system leak. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fSMLkkG3ME


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## kydnav (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Wow, my guess is you're going to need more than the timing chain DIY. Sounds like there are major issues with the head, possibly one or more bad cam lobes or lifters. Honestly, I wouldn't drive the car until the valve cover came off to inspect what is wrong. That's some of the worst noise from a VR6 I've ever heard.

OK - i took your advice and parked the car in the garage. I started tearing it down yesterday and today and found that the upper guide was pretty much did not exist anymore.







So, I was able to fish out everything I could see and think that I got most of it. Anyway - thanks again for the write-up - it was a huge help.


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## momentum1400 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

is it just my pc or is that sound clip no longer available.i open the link and there is no sound.


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## vox1982 (May 22, 2009)

Just bought a 2002vr with the proverbial time and chain problem.Just wanted to thank the Moderator for all his hard work that makes it easy to solve these problems.


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## bigb112 (Mar 31, 2009)

roughly how long did it take you to replace all the guides/tensioners/chains? 

great DIY by the way!


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (bigb112)*

I would set aside a full weekend if you haven't done it before. There are A LOT of steps. The DIY only covers those that involve the actual chains, guides, etc. Prepping the car to get to that point and putting it all back together is easily as many steps, if not more.


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

lol OOPS... think I bent some valves. 
I thought I had everything lined up and had already pulled the tensioner . I realized the cams were 180 off so I rotated it without the tensioner. One of the cams overturned a little. I am gonna go ahead and throw it together. I will do a compression check later. Maybe ok?...maybe not?
I have another motor I wanna rebuild anyways.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Badboyr66)*

How much did it overturn?


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## crspechicn (Jul 16, 2007)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Quick question: As I had mentioned in a recent thread, I followed the procedure (clear and well written, I can tell you've done some technical writing) and I still get marbles in a can around 1100 rpm. When I bled the tensioner (new style), it initially pushed down fairly easily by hand when in air, but in the oil it became very firm, almost like it has a check valve in it like the old style. I thought the new style used a spring and oil pressure and didn't hold oil in it. Is this true? Either way I still have to figure out why a new upper rail and tensioner didn't quiet it down. The old rail was just fine... maybe the tensioner isn't getting enough pressure.


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (crspechicn)*

I'm pretty sure that there is no check valve and that the resistance of the piston when there is oil inside is just from internal resistance of a viscous fluid inside the tensioner rather than air.
I've found that some of the "marbles" noise is actually the lower guide rail moving around on its two posts (it's not firmly secured, it floats). Chains are noisy, so people should expect that these engines won't be completely silent and marble-noise free. What they should be more worried about is an irregular marbles noise. That is more indicative that one of the timing chain parts has a problem.


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

*Re: (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_How much did it overturn?

enough to see slack


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## VgRt6 (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: (Badboyr66)*

It's probably fine unless you really pushed if the resistance increased.


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## Hebbe (Jul 3, 2009)

Timing chain replacement for my VR6 Golf mk3 was successful!








Big thanks to VgRt6 for this great diy. 
The rattling is mainly gone and engine sounds much healthier. 
Upper tensioner was busted. It didn't hold oil pressure and leaked oil through that inner o-ring (older style tensioner). 
Upper tensioner rail was as well busted. Sliding surface dropped off from the rivets. 
One small part from the upper rail was some where behind the lower chain.


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## crspechicn (Jul 16, 2007)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Well I drilled out the top of my old (new style) timing chain tensioner bolt to see how it works... and there is most decidedly a check valve. I can push it in with a small piece of stiff wire, and the tensioner is much easier to push down, with or without oil in it. 
Pics:
















I still have the marbles (see http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4481608). I bleed the tensioner, make sure its stiff, put it back in, and the marbles are gone... for about 10 minutes. I made sure the oil feed isn't plugged by taking the upper cover off again and cleaning the hole and making sure oil came out when I rotated the crank (while holding tension on the chain so it didn't skip). The o ring is definitely there, too. When I pull the bolt back out again, it can be pushed in by hand, and needs to be bled again. 
When I had the valve cover off, I put the bled tensioner in and rotated the crank by hand, and something bizarre happened. At a certain point in the rotation, there is slack between the cam gears (others have seen this, from by searches, see pics below) which then disappears if you keep rotating. The extra slack comes from the tensioner side of the system, pushing in the tensioner. The oil that was in the tensioner seeps out between the tensioner piston and the tensioner bolt/housing (both when I am screwing the bolt in AND when its pushed on by the slackened chain). When it springs back out when the slack is gone, if there isn't oil to be sucked in through the check valve I'm guessing it sucks in air and loses the force (no more incompressible oil but compressible air) required to tension the chains enough to keep the noise down. I hear it at about 1100 rpm or so. 
















The timing lines up perfectly when there is no slack. Is this normal? I feel like I need to "prime" the tensioner oil area with oil so it won't suck in air... but I'm not sure how to do that short of using my drilled out tensioner and tapping the hole and putting a set screw in after filling the bolt with oil. 
Any thoughts? Could it be low oil pressure? Chain stretch?


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## dblsix (Mar 23, 2003)

*Re: (crspechicn)*

I read the majority of this post but have one quick question. Do you only use loctite on that one upper guide bolt? i'd hate to have a bolt back out in there. Thanks.


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## kydnav (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (crspechicn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crspechicn* »_ I feel like I need to "prime" the tensioner oil area with oil so it won't suck in air... but I'm not sure how to do that short of using my drilled out tensioner and tapping the hole and putting a set screw in after filling the bolt with oil. 
Any thoughts? Could it be low oil pressure? Chain stretch? 



I put mine in a cup of oil, compressed it and let it suck in the oil as it was decompressing. Seemed to work OK for me.


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## crspechicn (Jul 16, 2007)

*Re: (kydnav)*

Yeah I put mine in a cup if oil too... But I was wondering about the space outside the bolt between the bolt and the upper cover. I came to find out that my lower chain is making a lot if noise... So off comes the tranny. As for loctite on the bolt, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt... But I didn't use it.


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## ghost13069 (Oct 22, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

hi. was very helpful except i could not see any of the pics
is there a cetain something i must do to see the pics ?
thanks


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## ghost13069 (Oct 22, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

how do i get to see these pics ?


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## marine24 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Great write up. I just did my chains today and this was a great tool to help along the way. When I went to align my cams I could see that my crank was off about a tooth or two. Thanks for the in depth pics, they really saved the day


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## OldE28 (Oct 12, 2009)

can we get some input on the tranny removal ? i am about to attempt it.... special tools ie: 12pt 30mm socket for mk3 axel hub ... let me know and post some pics please.. anything will be helpful...


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## OldE28 (Oct 12, 2009)

and yes i've read about the hard bolts on the tranny but i need more info on the cables and actual removal so as not to damage the input shaft?


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## slobbymk3 (Jan 26, 2009)

so glad i saw this thank you. lol


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## OldE28 (Oct 12, 2009)

how much slack would consider a re-install on the upper chain as it leaves the upper guide it looks like it has a bit of slack ??? though my cam tool fits and the bearing mark is perfect as well as the intermiedate sprocket mark are all aligned? ? ? i can elimiante the slack by over turing the cam so it pinches the cam tool but i dont think that is the right thing to do ... any suggestions??? HELP!!!


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## 007BOND (May 20, 2004)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

this is great info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Driverwanted (Nov 9, 2002)

Just wanted to share a storey here from our local scene....
One of the chaps on our local board ended up having his engine looked at by a shop - which identified that it seemed the chain had skipped a tooth and that the engine may be significantly damaged, being short on cash he tried to part the car out to the local community (it was a Mk4) a group of us got together to rip it apart and asess the damage.. luckily very little contact of the valves to the pistons. Basically one of the tensioners imploded - causing slack in the chains. so we replaced the 3 valves that made contact and put all the new chain gear and tensioner back in...
it went super smooth because of this DIY - thanks so much for the great documentation !


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## Heika (Aug 8, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Heya!
Really nice thread,
it will help me alot next week.
but i havent read through all the pages.
Is there a PDF file for this guide ?
Would be so much easier for me when im at the garage without internet nor WiFi.


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## louisvanwilker (Dec 30, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

just did this. couldnt of done it with out you. bless you. god holy great mother of lord bless you


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## tintedvr6 (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (louisvanwilker)*

super detailed thank you so much hopefully when i get the engine back in no troubles... I would definetly get the cam tool. $35 well worth it i used to pieces of steel it seemed not right it wasnt got the tool so easy after that.


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## mrrbiggz (Dec 16, 2008)

I love reading this thread!! I still havent gotten all the way thru due to SOO much helpful info,, One question tho, Is there a seperate thread of a diy on upgrading just cams? I see locking your cams for the chains but what about when your just upgrading cams? What keeps the chain from moving and how do you know your still in timing??


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## BarnDweller (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: (OldE28)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OldE28* »_how much slack would consider a re-install on the upper chain as it leaves the upper guide it looks like it has a bit of slack ??? though my cam tool fits and the bearing mark is perfect as well as the intermiedate sprocket mark are all aligned? ? ? i can elimiante the slack by over turing the cam so it pinches the cam tool but i dont think that is the right thing to do ... any suggestions??? HELP!!!

I ran into the same exact "issue". I just threw everything together anyway as it all lined up. It's been 7000 miles since my chains were done but i'm starting to hear them slap again... I'm hoping it's just a tensioner issue though.
So what did you end up doing? Do you notice any chain slap?


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## duffney06 (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: (VgRt6)*

Thank you so much for this guide. I did mine a few weeks ago and this DIY saved my life. When I first started my car I thought I messed up my timing because my car ran real rough but I realized that I had broken the seal one of the vacuum hoses had (it had melted itself onto the heat shield and resealed itself lol). 
Everything went smooth and I can say that I only have you to thank for it.


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## djtreson88 (Apr 26, 2007)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

great diy


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## nesisg (Jun 9, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VgRt6* »_Did you verify that the intermediate sprocket was set correctly before retiming the upper chain? If you did, then it's probably chain stretch. If you didn't, then the intermediate sprocket may not have been in the correct position. As stated in the DIY, there are four different intermediate sproket positions when the crank is set to #1 TDC. Only two of them are the correct position for installing and timing the upper chain. If the other two are used, then the upper chain will be off by 1/2 tooth (~3° or so IIRC).

Gary you're the man! I should have read your guide more carefully. I think I found the reason for my timing code. I never checked the intermediate sprocket and I have a feeling it's off by half a tooth, but will have no way of knowing until I open it up this weekend. I already ordered a trigger wheel from the stealership. Do you think I should replace it or is it a waste of money to do so? Basically, I'm wondering if it can go bad somehow?


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## o10011101 (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Hey man,
What do you do if your Crankshaft pulley is an after market one?
My performance pulley has no TDC mark on it at all. So, I cannot line that up to make sure I'm in TDC. So, I've got the cam locking tool in perfectly, so does that mean I'm good to replace the chain? My mechanic friends keep telling me to just replace the chain without lining up TDC.
The chain I'm replacing does have some play to it if that matters.


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## o10011101 (Jun 3, 2008)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

Hey man,
What do you do if your Crankshaft pulley is an after market one?
My performance pulley has no TDC mark on it at all. So, I cannot line that up to make sure I'm in TDC. So, I've got the cam locking tool in perfectly, so does that mean I'm good to replace the chain? My mechanic friends keep telling me to just replace the chain without lining up TDC.
The chain I'm replacing does have some play to it if that matters.


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## dkrone223 (Dec 4, 2009)

*Re: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6 (VgRt6)*

I have a 99.5 jetta vr6 12v and my engine is misfiring on cylinders 1,3,5 I listened to the clip and it sounds exactly like the clip. My mechanic tells me my rails are shot i assume he means the guide rails? any advice?


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## Ouroboros (Sep 26, 2010)

Thank you for the great guide. I will most likely find it very useful in the near future. My 2000 Jetta MKIV VR6 12V (AFP engine) with 220k mi is currently producing similar noise. Perhaps someone with more experience can confirm my diagnosis from the following clips (my apologies for the low levels):

http://drop.io/xulmroh/asset/engine1-wav (passenger side)
http://drop.io/xulmroh/asset/engine2-wav (driver side)

In particular, see the latter clip at 0:35 and 1:15. In addition, the vehicle is currently generating the following codes:

P0341 (Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance)
P0343 (Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit High Input)
P1116 (O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Bank 1 Sensor 1 Open)
P1196 (O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Bank 1 Sensor 1 Electrical Malfunction)

Presumably, the former two codes are related to the noise? If this is indeed a timing chain issue, then is the above procedure reasonably valid for an AFP engine? I would appreciate any suggestions, since my automotive experience is very limited.


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## cpomplun (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm looking to get the parts to do the timing chain. Do I just need one of each of these parts?

* 021 109 503 D - upper timing chain
* 071 109 513 - upper timing chain guide rail
* 021 109 509 E - upper timing chain tensioner rail
* 021 109 507 B - upper timing chain tensioner bolt (comes with copper crush washer N 013 827 1)

* 021 109 465 B - lower timing chain
* 021 109 469 - lower timing chain guide rail
* 021 109 467 - lower timing chain tensioner rail

* 068 198 171 - rear main oil seal

Just want to make sure, THANKS!


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## wearethe48th (Feb 1, 2009)

*Inquiry*

In your post you mention that if you're only replacing the top bolt and guide it is not necessary to remove the tranny; does this include the top chain? Also, is it possible to replace all the parts top and bottom without removing the tranny? Thx!


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## wearethe48th (Feb 1, 2009)

*addendum to previous reply*

Just realized my previous question may be moot given that it won't start, think the chain already jumped a tooth requiring the tranny to be removed to corrected? Please validate or invalidate this line of thinking as appropriate.


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## dfera (Mar 6, 2006)

How can I rotate my cams to get them to the correct timing position and locked? I have my engine out tranny off, and the upper chain off ( lower is still on). The engine head had a couple bent valves, I had the machine shop repair everything and now I need to start putting it back together. I have the block at TDC, but the camshafts are not in their correct timing positions and I cannot turn them by hand. Will I have to remove the cams and reinstall them in the correct positions?

Thanks,
Dom


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## Fantino (May 1, 2010)

I just did my chains, clutch, thermostat housing, crack pipe, water pump, serpentine belt and tensioner, throttle body cleaning, starter motor rebuild, fuel filter, fluids, and plugs over the last few days using this and other DIYs written by VgRt6 and FaelinGL. 

My engine sounds so quiet again (well, as quiet as a VR can), and the whole process went very smoothly. Just wanted to pass my kudos along for some really intense, helpful and well written DIYs. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## das_jose (Aug 28, 2010)

very very very usefull thanks man!!!!


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## GMN68IF (Jan 26, 2011)

hi. I have a 1992 golf vr6,headgasket's gone. For some reason my engine does not have any timing mark. No notch, no mark on the block. I have looked again and again, cleaned the area, spined the crank , nothing. 
Is there a difference on early VR's?


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## hoodmeister (Jul 25, 2007)

*Don't forget the seal part number*

Just ordered the chain replacement set from GAP and it *did not* include the small o-ring seal for the head to upper chain cover tensioner port. It's the small green or blue one and the VW part number is: N-900-411-02. After I got my chain kit, I noticed it was missing and is not part of the kit. Other kits from other suppliers do include it. Another thing to look for is the stretch bolts if you have to remove the tranny. From the Tranny DIY, page 6, they are:

For the dogbone:
1x N10246603
1x N90597001
2x N10268302

For the tranny side mount:
2x N10209603

Bolts were $25 total from the dealer. Seems to be some debate as to whether they should be replaced. For $25, I'm not risking it.

Just finished putting the new chains on and made a dumb mistake. I tried to rotate the engine to check the chains and timing WITHOUT the upper chain cover or tensioner in place. Rear camshaft slipped a tooth as the chain road up on the sprocket (I was gentle, so I don't think I bent anything). I had to unbolt the camshaft bearing caps and start over. Did I say dumb? Also, check your clutch fork for the clip that holds it to the pivot point. My clip was in 3 pieces on the bottom of the bell housing covered in grime. I didn't notice until I went to put the tranny back in. D' oh!! Had to go find a retaining clip and the whole job got put on hold. If I would've checked it when I pulled it, I could have got the part much sooner.


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## deniska01 (Jun 26, 2010)

*here we go!*

ok i got all the parts (excellent price for the timing chain kit @ ecstuning.com) i got all the tools. i will be doing this next monday. i'll let you know how it goes. and thanks a lot for the DYI


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## deniska01 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Finally!*

Well. i finally got it running again. so smooth and nice! but. i have a problem... i closed the hood lid and some how the cable is not working so i can't open it. any one knows haw to pop the hood when the cable is not working? i still need to check the oil and the coolant at least one more time before i actually take her for a long drive.


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## 2.slowslow (Apr 26, 2005)

very helpful


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## deniska01 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Yes i still love my VW*

]I got it! opened the hood. fixed all the details and passed emissions test  but... 
few days after. mystery code.. P1344. it's not swown in any VW site but i found it in every single Audi site.:screwy: 

*P1344 Ignition Coil Power Output Stage 2 Short to B+*  i have no idea what that means. i'm opening a new post with that.


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## vw-keeper (Dec 2, 2009)

*Timing Chain Guide Installation*

I'm in the middle of doing the entire timing chain job, both top and bottom (after ALL plastic guides disintegrated, chain skipped, valves hit pistons, car died...).

The first guide I went to install was the lower chain guide (not tensioner) with two holes that fit over two pins in the block.

No go. Bottom pin doesn't fit (the top hole is elongated, presumably for tolerance reasons, and that pin does fit). I measured the pins and the holes and the pins are fractions of a millimeter larger than the holes on the three guides (the lower tensioner doesn't have this structure, because the holes are in the tensioner, and take screws).

Are these supposed to be a forced/press fit? I can't imagine that they are? I saw no mention of this issue in the DIY, which tends to corroborate this assumption.

I tried all three of the plastic guides on all of the pins in the block, and not one pin fits in the proper hole.

Unless some of you correct me, my assumption is that the holes in the guides are too small, and the parts are defective. True? False? Help!


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## PeruEuro (Dec 28, 2006)

I wish there was a mk3 DIY,


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## vrowland08 (Aug 11, 2010)

My dad, who is an experienced mechanic, just did my chains, guides, and tensioner per this DIY. Now, 1000 miles later, I have a rattling noise around 1100 rpms that seems to be coming from the upper timing chain cover area :banghead: . I would like to trust that my dad knew what he was doing, but why in the world would I have chain rattle already? Any input would be helpful.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

vrowland08 said:


> but why in the world would I have chain rattle already? Any input would be helpful.


Was the tensioner bled properly (and even if the answer is yes)? If not bled properly prior to installation sometimes there can be some slack on the upper chain leading to noise. Remove it, re-bleed it and re-install. If the noise is still present I'd take the upper cover off and verify that the upper rail is secrure. :thumbup:


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## vrowland08 (Aug 11, 2010)

Went ahead and ordered a new upper tensioner as that was my first thought as to what the problem is. I'm hoping to have it installed today.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

PeruEuro said:


> I wish there was a mk3 DIY,


Why, they're functionally the same (Mk3 & Mk4)? Removal of the valve cover, upper chain cover, tranny etc is consistent between the two platforms. 



vrowland08 said:


> Went ahead and ordered a new upper tensioner as that was my first thought as to what the problem is. I'm hoping to have it installed today.


Yeah report back on it. I had a noisy upper once after a chain replacement and it was just the tensioner. If the upper rail is not torqued properly (Loctite recommended on that central bolt) sometimes it can develop slop.


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## vrowland08 (Aug 11, 2010)

upper tensioner replaced and still making noise. How easy is it to confuse intake shifter rod noise with timing chain noise? Could the shifter rod possibly be the culprit?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Take a video clip if possible. Chain noise is localized on the driver's side and sometimes driver's rear. If you're hearing that noise from the frontal area is a possibility that it is the intake bushings. Listen closely to front/top of the intake mani to determine if that is the source.


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## vrowland08 (Aug 11, 2010)




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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I'm guessing as I am not there to tell what location of the motor the noise is coming from. Is it more to the front/top or the side? Any vibration from the upper intake mani? Guessing I'd say consider the intake just because you've already replaced the entire chain assembly; the tensioner replaced twice (and hopefully you bled it); the noise sounds "plasticky". Before you dig into the manifold though try to detect where that noise appears to be loudest, ie chain cover or intake.


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## vrowland08 (Aug 11, 2010)

There seems to be two different noises going on. One is definitely coming from the front drivers side (intake manifold). The other is a little bit harder to hear and occurs at lower rpms (1100-1300). Is a certain amount of chain noise normal when the engine is cold? Before the chains were done, I never noticed any noise, but I also never tried to notice it. The chains were done as a "while you're in there" kinda thing when I needed a new clutch.


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## FLATBLACKMK2 (Oct 10, 2003)

Great write up dude.guy...........:thumbup::heart:


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## eurocleanvr6 (Dec 21, 2010)

hey wats up dude i dont know if u have answered this question before but i believe my chain might have broken or atleast it definetely skipped a couple of times maybe a bit too many. well anyway my engine most definetely fell out of timing cuz it dont start. im kinda scared a piston might have hit a valve too bt my question is how do i knw dat piston #1 is at tdc if da cams did actually skip? i havent taken it apart cuz i kinda been having trouble triyng to answer dat. i mean if im rite in one turn piston#1 is at tdc and at da second turn piston #6 is at tdc, rite? so how am i gonna know if my cams are out of time?


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## MILESisBROKE (Dec 28, 2009)

what is the legnth you cut the sheet metal out to make to cam lock tools. i have the metal ready to go, just need some sort of dimension. please help


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## slagdemon (May 20, 2011)

dfera said:


> How can I rotate my cams to get them to the correct timing position and locked? I have my engine out tranny off, and the upper chain off ( lower is still on). The engine head had a couple bent valves, I had the machine shop repair everything and now I need to start putting it back together. I have the block at TDC, but the camshafts are not in their correct timing positions and I cannot turn them by hand. Will I have to remove the cams and reinstall them in the correct positions?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dom


Set your initial timing at the crankshaft mark/block mark. Then use a 24mm open end wrench on the camshaft to get it where it needs to be (with the chain off). Then use the cam holding tool or a homemade one to hold the cams in place while you put the chain on. Take special care to not mash the new valves against the pistons.


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## romearound52 (Apr 19, 2011)

hey guys, got a quick question. the PO replaced all timing parts 10K before i purchased so now there is roughly 18K on the new parts. recently started noticing a slight amount of chain noise that i have came to the conclusion is coming from the upper chain tensioner area. i ordered a new tensioner bolt and installed but now it seems as if there is more noise? (was just at low rpms but now more consistent), i did notice in this write up i SHOULD have bled the bolt which i DIDNT do. should i remove, bleed, and reinstall? or did into the upper timing chain case and inspect the rail and tensioner? any help would be appreciated, thanks.

btw this was a great write and plan on using it if i have to actually dig into this.


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## Rivers37 (Jun 7, 2011)

*Old or new chains*

I'm having trouble seeing the serial number on my vr6. It's a 2001. What are the chances it's the new version of the timing chain parts? I'd like to order before I pull it apart to look. 

Edit: I now see I have an AFP engine. Now more confused...


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## rocketboy90 (Dec 22, 2009)

What if the alignment tool doesn't line up with the cams after I put the notches together on the wheel.


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## ageguy (Jun 9, 2011)

Great write up.


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## ageguy (Jun 9, 2011)

Rocketboy, do NOT start the car if the cams aren't alingned. Bent valves will happen. Which wheel ( cam sprocket?) are you referring too?


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## fuerte (Sep 29, 2010)

rocketboy90 said:


> What if the alignment tool doesn't line up with the cams after I put the notches together on the wheel.


Your car more than likely jumped timing. That means your car more than likely has bent valves. 

i finish timing chains on my car but forgot to buy the flywheel bolts and i am dead in the water till next Sunday,my day off to finish this.


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## rockrules4life (Jan 7, 2011)

*vr6 head bad valve?*

am gonna check a 1997 vr6 jetta glx and the owner told me that it has a bad valve and thats it.

he is asking $1300 is tht a good deal???


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## Ouroboros (Sep 26, 2010)

Why is it necessary to remove the spark plugs? I just replaced mine--can I reuse the crush gaskets?


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## slagdemon (May 20, 2011)

rockrules4life said:


> am gonna check a 1997 vr6 jetta glx and the owner told me that it has a bad valve and thats it.
> 
> he is asking $1300 is tht a good deal???


I paid $1500 for a 2000 VR6 Jetta that needed new timing components. Car has 115k miles on it and is a 5 speed.

I'd try to get him down to 1k or so but thats just me.


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## slagdemon (May 20, 2011)

Ouroboros said:


> Why is it necessary to remove the spark plugs? I just replaced mine--can I reuse the crush gaskets?


Its not necessary to remove the spark plugs. The only reason that step is in there is so that it is easier to rotate the engine with the breaker bar or ratchet on the crankshaft. If you can rotate the engine with the spark plugs installed, go ahead and do it.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I referenced this thread heavily when I did my upper chain guide replacement back in '07.
Now, i'm getting ready to drop the tranny and do the full kit and will again have this thread up on a laptop and just wanted to say thanks to the OP. good job, man and deserving of recognition.


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## 86westy (Jun 23, 2007)

iPhone4 + this thread = awesome sauce. Pics are super clear and it displays just enough at a time on screen. Do a couple steps....scroll....couple more steps....drink beer....scroll. :thumbup:


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## hares1370 (Sep 27, 2009)

i just did my timing chains and when the intermediate sprocket is at 6 oclock the arrow is dead on and cam tool goes in fine...but when the intermediate sprocket is at 12 oclock its off by a 1 mm i can put the cam tool in but the crank has to be moved just a little bit....the bottom end is also in time too.....


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## pio.jimmy (Feb 16, 2011)

recently had timing done, afterwards developed an oil leak. i believe it is coming from the upper tensioner bolt and the crush washer attached. how likely would this be to leak if it was not replace when the timing was done? also would i be able to change out this bolt and washer/seal with out taking apart the rest of my timing? i.e. locking cam shafts in place, removing valve cover/timing covers? Thanks in advance


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

pio.jimmy said:


> recently had timing done, afterwards developed an oil leak. i believe it is coming from the upper tensioner bolt and the crush washer attached. how likely would this be to leak if it was not replace when the timing was done? also would i be able to change out this bolt and washer/seal with out taking apart the rest of my timing? i.e. locking cam shafts in place, removing valve cover/timing covers? Thanks in advance


1. That upper hydraulic tensioning bolt and crush washer should be changed each time you replace those chains.

2. You should be able to verify if the oil is truly leaking from the tensioner by simply viewing the rear of the upper chain cover. You should not have obstructed view there... if you do then use a mirror. A more common location for leaks to develop after doing the chains is at one/more of the seams of that upper cover itself.

3. You might have deformity of the crush washer leading to an oil leak. Definitely possible to have a leak at that location as the chain (saturated in oil) is bypassing that exact loaction.

4. Yes, lock the cams, verify that all chain slack is to the rear of the cams (ie firewall side of the cams any slack, intermediate gear to frontal cam gear taught); replace & bleed new tensioner then torque to required spec.


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## pio.jimmy (Feb 16, 2011)

Yeah, i have a leak and it could be either will check after work if its the cover should i just remove the cover reseal it and put it back on?


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## Hartosh1 (Sep 28, 2011)

Very usefull guide thanks

Done my timing chains a few nights ago and came across the problem of the new style tensioner bolt not fully screwing into the hole, was just wondering if there was a guide on how to fix this problem or is it a case of just taking the cover off and either tapping it or getting a dremmel into it?

Cheers Stephen


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

pio.jimmy said:


> Yeah, i have a leak and it could be either will check after work if its the cover should i just remove the cover reseal it and put it back on?


Yes, I've just removed the upper cover taking care not to damage the head gasket. Clean up all mating surfaces and use a sealant being sure not to allow any of it into the chain area to contaminate things. Otherwise stated as... don't go overboard with the silicone and have excess being compressed into the chain area.



Hartosh1 said:


> Very usefull guide thanks
> 
> Done my timing chains a few nights ago and came across the problem of the new style tensioner bolt not fully screwing into the hole, was just wondering if there was a guide on how to fix this problem or is it a case of just taking the cover off and either tapping it or getting a dremmel into it?
> 
> Cheers Stephen


Someone was just asking this question, tap it out and you will be fine.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5445570-Tensioner-bolt


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## Hartosh1 (Sep 28, 2011)

What a hero thanks very much mate!


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## 95volkswagenpassat (Aug 31, 2011)

*timing chain replacement*

Silly question, when turning the crank shaft to get to top dead center, do you turn it 2 times from its current position? Or do you line up the notch and arrow, then turn it 2 times?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

you'll know it's right when you can see the notch in the intermediate sprocket as described, and both slots at the end of the camshafts are sitting level with the head. like - - this is what the vr6 cam tool is for, btw.


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## 5_Cent (May 22, 2007)

by far the best write for something that has always been intimidating and I can say I have confidence that I can do this myself. Thank you!


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## karmeluk (May 22, 2010)

dkrone223 said:


> I have a 99.5 jetta vr6 12v and my engine is misfiring on cylinders 1,3,5 I listened to the clip and it sounds exactly like the clip. My mechanic tells me my rails are shot i assume he means the guide rails? any advice?


Having the same issue on my 2001 GTI vr6 @ 165K. Can anybody help?

Initially got the misfires from a cracked coil pack in the rainy weather, so after epoxying the coil pack (again), the CEL went away after 3 warmup cycles as expected. Yet, i still felt there was a minor misfire happening (most noticeable at around ~1800-2000 RPM), but with not enough to trigger CEL. The misfires got worse and my GTI was slowly turning into a WRX... Thought that my coil pack was shot altogether, so I replaced it with a new one. That didn't help. Got VCDS, reset all DTCs, and now getting what dkrone223 is seeing in his 99.5 jetta -- misfires on cylinders 1, 3, and 5.

I was getting a noise similar to that of VgRT6's first post a timing chain noise thread, but the noise was less pronounced, so I didn't worry about it. Until now.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

If the rattling noie is worse, then the guide rails are probably the cause. If you've never done the chains by 165K...you for sure need to do 'em. Your misfires are all on the aft bank of the engine so that sounds (to me) like that camshaft jumped a tooth which could happen if either the tensioner or badly worn/broken rails allow too much slack in the upper chain. Have you had to push-start it recently?

By the way, I took my old upper timing chain and the new one and hung them side by side from a level pipe and could see the difference in length.

I am at 125K on my '00 and all of the lower guides are A-OK. I had a broken upper guide rail at 98K which I replaced along with a new tensioner bolt and those are doing fine almost 30k later.


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## karmeluk (May 22, 2010)

vr6pilot said:


> Have you had to push-start it recently?


No, I haven't had to push-start it in a long while . Interestingly, the misfiring was getting worse gradually. One thing i do remember is my friend trying a different firing order, which caused a bad misfire and that may have pushed it over...

So, would it be a good idea to check compression (for valve problems) before digging into the engine?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Sure why not. Always good to know your motor's status...I assume you're trying to see if it's worth fixing...comp test is easy.

Another easy check is to see where the cams are sitting with the engine at #1 TDC. For this, you'll need to remove the upper intake manifold and the valve cover. Set the crank to Piston 1, TDC and check the alignment notches at the end of the cams (see the picture under step #8)

If the notches are tilted to the left, then your chains are stretched or the rails and/or tensioner bolt are worn. Time to replace.

If the notches are not equal (meaning one is level and one isn't -or- neither are level but to different degrees) then you have jumped a tooth at the cam drive sprocket.


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## Napathan (Jun 11, 2010)

*Question.*

Can I leave my engine in the car while I do this? Or do I have to take it out?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

If you are just checking the position of the cams, you can do it all under the hood.

Getting the upper intake manifold off can be a painintheass if your SAI pump is still in there but that is still way easier than pulling the motor. Also, pulling off the bumper skin and at least looseninig the lock carrier (radiator support) to increase the working space between radiator and engine makes it alot less aggravating.

Replacing the chains, guides, and rails requires separating the block from the transmission. You can PM me with what ya find. My motor is dangling from an engine hoist right now so I can help you with any guidance.


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## rkboring (Nov 25, 2011)

*Do not see lower timing cover bolts*

So fr this has been most informative, until I get to removing the lower cover. I have removed thermostat housing and I still do not see the lower 8 bolts. Any help please


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## 98GTI_VR6 (Jan 21, 2011)

*uh*

i don't have a egr valve...for some reason it doesn't have one i have a 98 vr6 12v gti


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## clydesdale_4 (Nov 26, 2011)

*2001 VR6 Timing Question*

I am in the midst of replacing the timing chain assembly in my son's '01 Jetta VR6 and have stumbled across a problem. I am at Step 30 of the Timing Chain DIY instructions which speaks about verifying the crankshaft timing. When I align the ground tooth on the crankshaft sprocket with the split in the main crankshaft bearing cap the notch on the crankshaft pulley does not align with the timing mark on the engine block. Conversely, when I align the crankshaft pulley notch with the timing mark on the block the ground tooth on the crankshaft sprocket does not align with the split in the main crankshaft bearing cap. Given this discrepancy, which alignment should I "believe"? I'm inclined to go with the sprocket/bearing cap alignment, thinking that perhaps the crankshaft pulley is not installed correctly (unless it is "idiot-proof" because the pulley is keyed and can only be installed one way on the crankshaft). Any assistance would be appreciated.


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## 98GTI_VR6 (Jan 21, 2011)

ok i did my timing chains on my 98 vr6 gti and start from the crank and work your way up

1st. put lower timing chain cover on notice the timing mark on outside of cover!
2nd.put flywheel on it only goes on 1 way!
3rd notice the timing mark on the side of the flywheel
4th line the two marks up! now make a mark that is visible w/o either the flywheel or the cover installed this way you dont have to do all of the above to check your self. uninstalled both. 
5th turn the intermediate sprocket to the lower alignment mark on the sprocket to the block.
6th install lower chain with both marks lined up
7th attach your cam alignment tool by sliding it in the passenger side slots so that they lay flush with the top of your head.
8th install top chain
9th check all your marks thay should all be on point
install covers and manually spin motor on pulley side and check your marks
the intermediate can align 180in or out(top or bottom)


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## 98GTI_VR6 (Jan 21, 2011)

mark on the lower cover that lines up with the mark on the flywheel edge


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## brandonvr6 (Feb 10, 2009)

*timing*

does this fact sheet also apply for the mk3 12v vr6 engines...


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## heerschap (Mar 18, 2009)

Is there a tranny removal DIY thread here anywhere? or is everything I need to know in the bently manual? Im replacing my upper, lower chains, rails and tensioners so Im doing my clutch while im down there too. Thanks!


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

bentley has it all.


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## heerschap (Mar 18, 2009)

well after abit of searching I found a couple transmission removal DIY threads that might help too.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...V-VR6-Transmission-Removal-Clutch-Replacement


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ssion-removal-clutch-replacement-2000-GTI-vr6


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## VWBRIANVW (Jun 18, 2011)

didn't read all so sorry if this has been answered but i have a 98 vr6 engine. slight noise from 1000-1200 like this diy says the noises typically have. Its there if you listen hard for it. do i have to replace the chains? i get yes's and no's. Thanks


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

You won't know for sure until you open it up. Until then, it's all speculation. If the current timing gear is around 100k and/or you've push-started it...you either have stretched chains or broken chain guides. Worn or jammed hydraulic tensioner could also be in there.


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## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

vr6pilot said:


> You won't know for sure until you open it up. Until then, it's all speculation. If the current timing gear is around 100k and/or you've push-started it...you either have stretched chains or broken chain guides. Worn or jammed hydraulic tensioner could also be in there.


Push starting it can cause the guides to break?


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## VWBRIANVW (Jun 18, 2011)

vr6pilot said:


> or you've push-started it...you either have stretched chains or broken chain guides. Worn or jammed hydraulic tensioner could also be in there.


Yeah im interested here too on this.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Skool's in session: 

Works like this...Hydraulic (oil) pressure is what really keeps the tensioner bolt exerting the necessary tension against the upper timing chain. The bolt also has a spring in it but it does not keep anywhere near as much tension as 70+ psi of oil pressure.

Using the starter turns the engine over at an even conrolled rate whereas pushing it and 'popping' the clutch usually results in a very jerky start up which induces 'chain slap' since there is no pressure on the tensioner yet. This can be pretty severe inside the motor and finish-off your old, brittle plastic guides. It has also been known to cause the upper chain to jump teeth on the cam sprockets.

Push starting your car is bad for it.


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## VWBRIANVW (Jun 18, 2011)

well, that there is very useful. if i ever get a dead battery, ill wait it out for a jump. lol


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## -..- (Feb 21, 2012)

k i could use a lil help..my chain seems to be at the right tension, my upper guides appear to be fine BUT my cams dont look like there aligned properly ie one is horizontal and the other is a few degrees off...what shuld i do

edit:nvm chaain is ddeff not as tight as it should be


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## 2000_Jetta (May 16, 2010)

man looking at this DIY brings me back to doing my chain replacement twice in 1 week. And replacing all the valves twice. Use lock tight!:thumbup:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

-..- said:


> k i could use a lil help..my chain seems to be at the right tension, my upper guides appear to be fine BUT my cams dont look like there aligned properly ie one is horizontal and the other is a few degrees off...what shuld i do
> 
> edit:nvm chaain is ddeff not as tight as it should be


You can't ever test the chain's tension because the engine would need to be running to do it.
Before you assume one cam is off from the other, make sure the whole motor is set to TDC.

If it is set to TDC, and the cams are still off, then one cam may have jumped a tooth....possibly due to a worn or weak tensioner bolt. this is assuming, of course, that all your guides are in fact solid.


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## heerschap (Mar 18, 2009)

Great thread! just finished installing my chains & clutch for first time ever. everything went well and engine runs great. Thank-you!


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## Cham (Jun 28, 2010)

Do i have to take of anny Sprocket to be able to take of my upper chain???


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## heerschap (Mar 18, 2009)

hey my new upper chain was shipped to me with the master link separate and I had too assemble chain together first before installing it. why would my upper chain come separated like this? so im thinking you could probably do your top chain, top guide & tensioner without dropping tranny. if you drop one end of chain down in there, fish it around the sproket and backout somehow. maybe with a string or something. you may need a special tool to install master link and rivet it together while its on cam sprokets though.


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## g60manny (Feb 6, 2006)

Cham said:


> Do i have to take of anny Sprocket to be able to take of my upper chain???


 no :thumbdown:


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## kaiser820 (Mar 22, 2012)

*Cams not aligned*

Remove the cam or cams that are not set in TDC position only. When you remove the bearing caps be sure to re-install them the same way you took them off. Use caution, the cams are under pressure.
*Re-installing:* Lubricate contact surfaces of camshafts and then re-install them into cylinder head so that camshaft sprocket alignment recesses are facing up. Check that cylinder #1 is at Top Dead Center (TDC) while you are doing this constantly. You will have to apply pressure to the cam while someone else installs the bearing caps. Install bearing caps 3 and 5 evenly then Install bearing caps 1 and 7 evenly then Install 2 and 6 evenly and then Install bearing cap 4. 
*Tightening torque* Camshaft bearing caps to cylinder head....20Nm (15ft-lb)..Hope this helps...It worked for me:wave:


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## slagdemon (May 20, 2011)

I replaced my upper chain guide last year as it had disintegrated. After buttoning it all back up, it was much quieter but still had a slap. I drove the car all summer and winter and this weekend decided to do something about it. 

Pulled the transmission, took off the clutch, and removed the lower cover. Found out my lower guide rail was also broken into two pieces and parts of it and the original guide were wedged around the lower tensioner and in the nooks and crannies behind the chains. Pulled out two handfuls of plastic. Put new chains, tensioners and guide rails on and ran out of time last night to finish the job. I still need to put in the starter, hook up all the electrics, put the linkage on, battery, air cleaner, intake, throttle body, etc, and drain and refill the transmission and put another gallon or so of coolant in. IF I start right after work, I should be done in 2-3 hours hopefully. The worst part is those 6 bolts on front of the intake manifold.. finger crushers for sure!!


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

slagdemon said:


> The worst part is those 6 bolts on front of the intake manifold.. finger crushers for sure!!


Ground down 6mm allen. Also sometimes go in with a flex extension and rachet. :thumbup:


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## slagdemon (May 20, 2011)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Ground down 6mm allen. Also sometimes go in with a flex extension and rachet. :thumbup:


Done that. My hands are just too big and my 12 yr old doesn't have the patience and keeps dropping tools down the front of my engine.

The real pita is the one on the passenger side near the AC port. I have to use a socketed allen wrench and put an open end wrench on the shaft to turn it.


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## jmillighan33 (Apr 22, 2012)

Is mine knackered? 

[video]http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/Jono0309/?action=view&current=773549f0.mp4[/video]


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## aestheticcataclysm (Jul 12, 2010)

*Well, mine ate ****. This is a fantastic guide.*

While driving, I downshifted, felt a weird sluggish sensation in the motor and I get a low oil pressure warning stop vehicle immediately light. I was reluctant to put it back into gear so I popped the clutch immediately, coasted to the side, tried to start it for for one second, and gave up. It wouldn't crank, and sounded like it was just free spinning when I tried to crank. I pulled the following codes at the bottom. 

The codes 16826, 16726, and 17796 are the only new ones. 

I'm going to go ahead and replace every failure prone bit in the engine bay, fix all the stuff that wasn't working correctly since I'm down there anyway. 

Tested compression, got 30 psi in one cylinder and none in all the others that we tested. I don't think we checked them all at this point and instead opted to take off the upper intake, valve cover, and timing chain inspection cover. Found a bunch of plastic bits inside from the leftmost upper guide (towards the nose of the car) and the tensioner was completely slack with a nice big groove worn into it. I'm sure that I've bent some valves, so I'm gonna take the head off. The camshaft lobes look a little "shiny" bug didn't look "wiped." Is this normal for 140k? How should I inspect them for wear? Inside the valve cover was free of gunk, I was surprised. 

Also, isn't the oil pump driven by an intermediate shaft that's controlled by the timing chain? If the chain broke or at the very least lost timing, wouldn't the oil pump cease to pump and then trigger the light? The car ran for about 15-30 seconds after I felt the damage and then I shut it off. Just trying to get a clear picture in my head of what happened and document what happened to my car in the thread for anybody who experienced a failure rather than just doing the work as preventative maint. I'm going to pull the pan, check the pump as per manual, replace the pressure sender and inspect the rods. 



Thursday,29,March,2012,19:02:54:53745 
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.0 (x64) 
Data version: 20111111 



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


Chassis Type: 1J - VW Golf/Bora IV 
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57 75 
76 

Mileage: 228240km/141821miles 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Address 01: Engine Labels: 021-906-018-AFP.lbl 
Part No: 021 906 018 M 
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1 G 6760 
Coding: 00031 
Shop #: WSC 07235 
VCID: 183134587888B4E 

5 Faults Found: 
17545 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Add) 
P1137 - 35-00 - System too Rich 
16826 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0442 - 35-10 - Small Leak - Intermittent 
16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1 
P0420 - 35-00 - Efficiency Below Threshold 
16726 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) 
P0342 - 35-00 - Signal too Low 
17796 - Control Module Malfunction - DBW Throttle Monitoring 
P1388 - 35-10 - - Intermittent 
Readiness: 0000 0000


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## valet (Apr 21, 2002)

bump for a good guide! 

This DIY has helped me through 3 timing chain jobs: myself, my fiancee's, and a friend's. Probably going to do my 4th in a month or so :thumbup: 



:facepalm:


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## willwork4dub (Apr 22, 2012)

Any guide on what I need to do to prepare for this? as far as removing tranny, and jacking up the motor? jw, if i need to disconnact axles or anything. may sound stupid lol but its my first dub and my first fwd


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

willwork4dub said:


> if i need to disconnact axles or anything. may sound stupid lol but its my first dub and my first fwd


 Anytime you are removing that tranny the axles need to come off prior. Pretty sure that is mentioned in the DIY also. 

Some folks find it easier to remove the motor & tranny as an assembly to do the chains (me included), especially on Mk3's because the tranny mount is a PITA - during both removal and reinstallation of the tranny.


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## Stangrcr1 (Mar 6, 2012)

Jono, doesn't sound good. 

I just did a full rebuild and I have to thank the OP for this info. :thumbup:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Just finished doing another set this past weekend. Bump for a helpful thread that I always refer to. :thumbup:


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## aestheticcataclysm (Jul 12, 2010)

Thank you for this guide! My lower chain snapped. I guess all is well, this has given me the opportunity to create an enormous list of failure prone parts and bits to upgrade/replace, and allowed me to see many issues that need to be sorted before there are problems that I wouldn't have seen otherwise until it was too late. The list is so long I will have turned nearly every bolt on the car by the time I'm done. Kinda stoked, actually. I


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

You will learn much.

Chain _snapped_? Bend a valve?


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## aestheticcataclysm (Jul 12, 2010)

Gary, thanks for writing this. I am now looking at dropping my engine after seeing the lower timing chain snap and finding the guides broken and the oil pump pickup screen full of debris. I have been told by another member that I should inspect the intermediate shaft and replace the oil pump, replace the crank and rod bearings while I am down there. He thinks, and a couple things I've read verify this as a possibility, that the intermediate shaft may have seized with debris from the timing chain parts, causing the lower chain to snap, and that a rebuild of the motor is in order. Any insight, thoughts on the kinds of wear I am looking for and should expect? I am going to have the cyl head completely rebuilt because the valves are likely smashed. Hopefully the bores and pistons are okay.

I will pull the engine and then the cylinder head on Thursday and take pics.


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## aestheticcataclysm (Jul 12, 2010)

HURRRR DURR THINK IS BROKENS? :facepalm:


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## Tsiqara (Mar 26, 2012)

Great DIY: Just did timing and chain stuff thanks to this thread, but have problem understanding this part, referring to Old Style Tensioner bolt re installment:

"NOTE: The above procedure is for the newer style tensioner only. To bleed the older style tensioner, insert a thing wire into the bleed hole in the end of the plunger to activate the check valve inside and then press down on the plunger to compress it fully."

Maybe it was asked here already but i couldn't find info 

* I have that old style bolt, I have drained it successfully using thin wire. It has no oil inside anymore but after bleed it popped up again, so now it has air inside, is it right??? shall i re install it that way ? is it normal way ?? doesn't it require to be compressed or something ? shouldn't i submerge it in oil like new style tensioner? *

I have to install it today so please guide me with this old style bolt installation.

Thanks


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Tsiqara said:


> I have to install it today so please guide me with this old style bolt installation.
> 
> Thanks


Honestly, I hope you not only switch over to the newer tensioner but probably more importantly the newer upper rail. Those upper components from the older design are not as robust as their replacements.


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## Tsiqara (Mar 26, 2012)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Honestly, I hope you not only switch over to the newer tensioner but probably more importantly the newer upper rail. Those upper components from the older design are not as robust as their replacements.


I would gladly switch to new style tensioner and rail but unfortunately it requires time (Shipping to int. country) and some funds which i actually dont have at the moment 

So back to the question about that old fashioned Bolt, help plz ?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Tsiqara said:


> * I have that old style bolt, I have drained it successfully using thin wire. It has no oil inside anymore but after bleed it popped up again, so now it has air inside, is it right??? shall i re install it that way ? is it normal way ?? doesn't it require to be compressed or something ? shouldn't i submerge it in oil like new style tensioner? *
> 
> I have to install it today so please guide me with this old style bolt installation.
> 
> Thanks


Yes the piston should be retracted into the tensioner itself. When you use the wire to bleed the air out (ie when you insert the wire) you should also simultaneously apply pressure to the piston to make it retract. Those older tensioner bolts are still hydraulically controlled by oil (remember there is the oil galley/port in the upper chain cover).

I have some newer tensioners here I can send you free of charge if you are interested.


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## BornBlue82 (Jun 12, 2012)

*Removing upper tensioner guid rail*

Is it possible to replace the upper tensioner guide rail without removing the chain, I am trying to avoid removing my lower timing cover. I have a 95 jetta, with the old style setup. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

You can get to the upper guide rail with just the upper cover off. You can NOT get to the tensioner rail (the one the tensioner bolt pushes against).


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## BornBlue82 (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks VR6Pilot, What is the wear limit on the tensioner rail?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I don't know that. 
I do know that I replaced that one guide rail because I didn't have to drop the tranny and later hated meself for it. Wound up doing the full nine not long after.


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## BornBlue82 (Jun 12, 2012)

I am having the same thought as you did. However, I currently don't have a shop and my car is sitting on grass. I removed the valve cover and the upper timing chain cover and noticed the guide rail was broken at the middle bolt. Instead of just seeing the bolt head I seen the bolt and spacer. Somehow it broke off around the bolt. I am assuming that the piece that broke off is somewhere wedge next to the chain making that noise. I am going to remove the oil pan to see if I can see anything. My intentions are to replace everything down the road, to include the clutch, flywheel, etc. I just purchased the car for 700 dollars and it has been sitting for a few years. Again, thanks for all the advice.


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## BornBlue82 (Jun 12, 2012)

Also is it possible to upgrade the tensioner bolt to the new style without replacing the tensioner guide? Meaning, would the old guide be compatable with the new tensioner bolt?


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## wmcraft (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks for this DIY. Very helpful as I had to replace my guides at just 78,000 miles. Just wanted to note that anyone doing this might consider dropping the oil pan to check for chunks of plastic the break off. I did, and found that my guides had broken to pieces, but then those pieces were ground into smaller bits of plastic and dropped into the oil pan. The oil pickup screen was just filled with this stuff - a pair of tweezers helped me clear that out. I'm posting pics for reference. Trust me - it's worth the extra effort to look if your guides/tensioners have broken to pieces.


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## wmcraft (Nov 25, 2009)

Also, the upper guide was so far gone that the upper chain was riding on the pin that the guide rests on. Take a look at these pics showing how the chain wore most of the way through. I had to replace the pin too. I never did check the price at the VW dealership, but it was about $30 from ecstuning.com.


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## Niknaks (Jul 14, 2010)

wmcraft said:


> Also, the upper guide was so far gone that the upper chain was riding on the pin that the guide rests on. Take a look at these pics showing how the chain wore most of the way through. I had to replace the pin too. I never did check the price at the VW dealership, but it was about $30 from ecstuning.com.


Nice pics. Thanks for the share.


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## BornBlue82 (Jun 12, 2012)

wmcraft said:


> Also, the upper guide was so far gone that the upper chain was riding on the pin that the guide rests on. Take a look at these pics showing how the chain wore most of the way through. I had to replace the pin too. I never did check the price at the VW dealership, but it was about $30 from ecstuning.com.


Wow!! You might want to go ahead and replace your chains. Atleast the top, but since your tearing it all apart, you might want to do that. Definetly the top since it was eating through the guide bolt. Metal on metal, not a good combo. Just my 2cents.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

BornBlue82 said:


> Also is it possible to upgrade the tensioner bolt to the new style without replacing the tensioner guide? Meaning, would the old guide be compatable with the new tensioner bolt?


No, you want to upgrade both the upper rail/guide and the hydraulic tensioner simulatenously. I want to say the point of contact on the reverse side of the upper rail is slightly different (I have not looked at one of the older rails in a while).



BornBlue82 said:


> Wow!! You might want to go ahead and replace your chains.


Hopefully all of the guys that have had any evidence of chafing are doing this anyway. Beyond the chafing issue there is usually stretching associated with the chains themselves so though tedious it is a good idea to replace them, period.


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## wmcraft (Nov 25, 2009)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Hopefully all of the guys that have had any evidence of chafing are doing this anyway. Beyond the chafing issue there is usually stretching associated with the chains themselves so though tedious it is a good idea to replace them, period.


Yeah, there's no way I could trust any of the timing parts after this. Hence why I also pulled the oil pan to check things there. The guides, tensioner, tensioner rails, chains, guide pin, rear crackshaft seal, tranny front pump seal, thermostat housing/crackpipe, and starter are all getting done. Hoping to have it all put back together this weekend if I can squeeze in the time in the garage.


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## 91RedWagen (Jun 10, 2011)

*Timing*

I have an issue. When I lined up the notches on the crank pulley/block, I was not able to properly slide the locking tools in place. In order for me to slide them in correctly with the proper amount of gap, I had to turn the notch on the pulley about a half inch past where the notch is on the block. 

Is this ok as long as the cams are lined up correctly?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

^ Did you try rotating the crank a further 360 deg to see if the cams come in closer to alignment? You really want to set the crank at its reference point (and not move it thereafter) and rotate the cams either direction such that the cam tool slots in.


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## Gtivolksswaggin (Jul 8, 2012)

This is a fantastic wright up!! It has helped a bunch but I have a question. If I need to adjust the timing not replace anything. which steps do I follow and such? Do I have to drop the tranny?:screwy: 

Thank you in advance.:wave:


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## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

Gtivolksswaggin said:


> If I need to adjust the timing not replace anything. which steps do I follow and such? Do I have to drop the tranny?:screwy:
> 
> Thank you in advance.:wave:


 There is no "adjusting" the timing on a VR6. It's set when the chains are installed and the ECU then does all the work. 

At one time you could get some aftermarket adjustable cam gears that would allow the timing to be played with, but I've not seen them in a long time.


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## ventovr (Aug 29, 2006)

Will the timing get screwed up if the engine is turned with no tensioner bolt in? 

I will be replacing the entire chain.


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## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

ventovr said:


> Will the timing get screwed up if the engine is turned with no tensioner bolt in?


 Yes there is a good chance that the chain could jump on the sprockets if the tensioner isn't installed


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## ventovr (Aug 29, 2006)

what if it only got turned a 1/4 turn and i know it didn't jump a tooth


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## James 93SLC (Sep 27, 2000)

ventovr said:


> what if it only got turned a 1/4 turn and i know it didn't jump a tooth


 Probably fine then :thumbup:


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## ventovr (Aug 29, 2006)

Thanks, I got it to TDC and the notches on the cams are lined up.


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## omgkilledkenny (Sep 15, 2011)

I bought the kit from MJMAutohaus.com to do this DIY and then a tree fell on my car. If anyone wants to buy the kit from me I'm selling it for $150 shipped. The link is the part I bought at MJMAutohaus:

http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_5_27_263_3849&products_id=955

message me here or email me at [email protected] for more info.


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## vwuberalles2003 (Dec 1, 2004)

*Timing Chain Goodness!*

Mad props to Gary! this walk-through clearly illustrates one of the toughest jobs in vw engine land, especially since the design of the VR is so unique! One thing that does deserve mention though; when setting up the cams, its easy to be fooled by the cam slots, so what i did was keep an eye on the lobes of the cam, specifically on Number 1 cylinder. Good stuff!:thumbup:


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## kaka_kong (Aug 26, 2006)

*Thanks, Gary!*

I doubt you still read these but thank you for a great writeup. I finally worked up the courage and found time to do this on a 2000 Jetta VR6 with 94,150 miles. Had to do it while the weather is still good b/c I don't have a garage and my driveway is on an angle so putting it on ramps it was pretty level.  

It's convenient to take care of other items along the way: 

- *bleed clutch* (seems a bit smoother after maybe 12 years of no change) 
- fix *leaky secondary water pump*, clean, reseal 
- unmount, clean, repack gears on *starter* (No more starter grind after 12 years, yay! :thumbup 
- new *plugs* (at 60,000 about 5 years ago a mechanic put in Platinum plugs but the car seems MUCH better with the BKR5EKU Copper Plugs. He must have torqued them to 60 lbs. They were really in tight, I am glad the threads weren't damaged (at least I think they weren't damaged). 
- cleaned the battery tray with baking soda - it was gross 
- remove, spray MAF sensor (anyone know when they should be replaced even if there is no CEL?) 
- cleaned the gunk off the intake manifold 

The only thing I didn't do, and perhaps should have, was to change the thermostat which is three years old, and JBWeld the coil pack which I had already done a few weeks ago (though mine wasn't very cracked and it's original). 

I got a little stuck getting off the intake manifold where there's a little cable that needs to be detached... I finally found that I had to push down a little black clip on the front right of the manifold that I wanted to treat gingerly so as to not break it. :banghead: 

I only replaced the upper chain guide rail and the upper tensioner plug (newer style, looked fine). The upper chain guide rail had surprisingly only very minor wear towards the top. The top tensioner had hardly any wear on it whatsoever, just enough to see where the chains passed regularly. I wonder if using synthetic made for less wear on the timing system. Things looked pretty good. 










Putting everything back together I was pretty paranoid, put blue Lok-tite on the short upper guide rail bolt, got nervous, took it all apart again (the Lok-tite was already working, but I wanted to be sure) and then back together again. 











Used some Reinzosil around all the mating surfaces, and it was a little hard to get the 6mm hex screws mounted vertically to join the upper and lower timing cover surfaces. At this point it was probably 11 p.m., the temperature was headed into the 50s and I was working in my driveway in shorts and a t-shirt, LED lantern and a flashlight in hand. My bride came out and held the flashlight until about 1 a.m. as I reassembled what I could. Everything was cleaned up and test driven by 2:30 a.m. This morning I had to get up and drive into Manhattan for a meeting at 10 a.m. which didn't leave a lot of time for sleep! :what: 

One unnerving moment was removing the old upper guide rail (which really involved some coaxing since it wasn't broken) and the bushing around the short bolt fell out and into the engine.  








Uh Houston we have a little situation... and it's getting really dark. Thank goodness for the nearby street lamp. 

I cut a hanger and fished it out since I could still see the bushing. I was a bit tired and worried that it might fall deeper into the engine and I'd be in trouble. 










This took me far too long from start to cleanup (maybe 15 hours including: 
cleaning/repacking starter gears; 
bleeding clutch [undoing the bleeder screw even with PB Blaster took scary pressure to open]; 
replacing plugs; 
dismantling the secondary water pump, cleaning it and sealing everything with blue RTV sealant; 
scrubbing down the battery tray) 

but it's done, the car runs better than it did when I had a "VW Specialist" tune it up at 60K miles and really, hasn't run this well since it was new 12 years ago. Glad I could finally find the time to finish this job. Thanks to everyone who contributed advice. :beer: 


--------------------------------------------------- 

Just took a few more pictures tonight. 

While I went to bed last night, exhausted but satisfied with having finally taken care of this job, I was a little disappointed at what seemed (in low light, at least) like there wasn't much wear on the upper rail guide. However now that I've finally had a chance to look, it's obvious that this is note a "lifetime" part and was a failure waiting to happen. 












Note the missing bushing.


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## VR6fixit2 (Oct 12, 2012)

*VR timing issue*

I bought a 2001 Jetta with VR6 in it last year and have been working on it part time. It was bought at an auction--it was a flood car, but it only had 40K miles on it. The flood damage was small but the engine was damaged because someone tried to start it with water in it (not me). I took the head off and it did have #1 connecting rod bent. I replaced the rod and piston and put the head back on. I used the DIY here to get the timing chains back on. 

When I started it, it runs OK, but the computer throws a PO 343 code. I took the valve cover back off and set the crank at TDC--the cams line up perfectly, so the timing does not seem to be off. But after thinking this over isn't it possible that I have the intermediate shaft out of sync with the crank causing the PO343 code? Since I did not take the trans out I was not able to see the lower chain position. I am able to see the TDC on the crank pulley, but I'm concerned that there is more than one slot in the intermediate shaft and I have the wrong one visible when I put the chains on the cam. I noticed the crank position sensor actually reads off the intermediate shaft and not the crankshaft itself. Is there any way I can check the timing of the intermediate shaft w/o taking the trans out?

Any ideas?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

If everything is properly timed, the TDC mark on the crank balancer will be aligned AND the notch on the intermediate shaft will appear as it does in step #21 AND the cams will be aligned in accordance with the cam alignment tool. With all of those aligned at once, your motor is in harmony with itself.


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## VR6fixit2 (Oct 12, 2012)

*VR6 timing chain alignment*

I'd like to believe you that if the crank is at TDC #1 and the notch is showing with the cams lined up, then you are good. But if the picture in the DIY is correct, there are two notches in the intermediate shaft. That means you can get it on TWO different ways and still see the notch. My bet is that it is only on correctly ONE way. But, without the tranny off, how can you tell which way is the right way on lining up the notch?

I'm going to see if I can show a picture here of what I mean. Nope that didn't work. Not sure how to post a photo here. 

But the DIY clearly shows the countershaft gear with TWO notches in it because they had the tranny off so you can see them. But from the top without the tranny off you can only see one notch at a time so you don't know which notch you are seeing. In the picture, one notch is next to the keyway for the gear, but you can't see the keyway when the gear is on.


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## 2CoupeLove (Oct 15, 2011)

This is the most well done DIY i have ever come across and it was exactly what i needed. will be timing my freshly built vr this weekend and hopefully finish my build. Thanks alot man. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## carpathianwolf (Jul 10, 2003)

I just want to ask about the Locating pin with the collar, upper guide rail. It states to tighten to 10 Nm (7 ft-Ib). The motor had a chain failure so the locating pic was damaged. I installed the new pin and tried to install the new upper guide by sliding it onto it, but it wont go on. 

pic for ref. (Green arrow)









thank you


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## carpathianwolf (Jul 10, 2003)

Found the problem. The owner who provided the parts bought the wrong part. The upper guid rail was for a AAA motor and not for the AFP. I didnt notice the wrong part. Here is the difference in the pin just for ref. Left mk3 - right mk4


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## DemonTech (Jul 29, 2012)

this is awesome when i bought mine the timing was all messed up so i didnt know how to set it after the rebuild. i do have a question though. is it ever a good idea to do intermediate shaft bearing in the AFP engine?


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## TonySkate (Nov 16, 2012)

Hello, I am looking for a few timing parts of a 2000 VW jetta GLX with a *AFP* VR6 engine

I really dont know what are the exact part numbers and I hope you can help me, because *I was looking for those parts about a year.*

exactly the parts that I am lloking for are the showed with arrows on the next image ( they are basically bolts)









Sorry this is my first VW car I came from Ford big blocks so I really do not know almost nothing about this engine... can anyone knows where or who can help me to get this parts? I just need the correct bolts for my engine

*thanks!!!*


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

When I'm doing those chain jobs:


Timing parts - MJM, Fourseasons.
Specific bolts such as you have listed - Stealership


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## wmcraft (Nov 25, 2009)

TonySkate said:


> Hello, I am looking for a few timing parts of a 2000 VW jetta GLX with a *AFP* VR6 engine
> 
> I really dont know what are the exact part numbers and I hope you can help me, because *I was looking for those parts about a year.*
> 
> ...


No worries - welcome to VW's. For starters, you can ID the VW part numbers for each bolt from the diagram and parts list at http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/show...key_trimLevel=18846&searchString=timing+chain.

You can get these at your local dealership, or try ECS Tuning. If the following link works it will take you right to the timing set bolts/guide pins - http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Jetta_IV--VR6_12v/Engine/Timing/2


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

wmcraft said:


> You can get these at your local dealership, or try ECS Tuning.


Good call on that, did not realize ECS was selling the individual bolts.:thumbup:


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## wmcraft (Nov 25, 2009)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Good call on that, did not realize ECS was selling the individual bolts.:thumbup:


Yep - I picked up my upper rail guide pin (pics further up in this thread) from them at approx $30. Pricey, I know. But it was almost identical pricing as the dealer. I picked up some new stretch bolts for axels, flexplate, etc. from them as well. Pricing seems to be at or slightly better than dealer for most of them.


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## TonySkate (Nov 16, 2012)

Awesome guys, thank for your time and help! I found al the parts that I was looking for! now I know what are the specific number parts for my engine, I hope soon I can let know know good news about my ride!

sorry I know my english isn´t the best but I do my best! thanks a lot


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## gypsymoth (Apr 18, 2007)

*Timing chain*

great write up fot this PITA job. I'm doing this in Colorado winter in an open shed. Not a job for the newbie.


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

gypsymoth said:


> great write up fot this PITA job. I'm doing this in Colorado winter in an open shed. Not a job for the newbie.


I'll agree this isn't for a newbie. I just did mine over the past weekend about 3 full days that's including a mistake I made that took 3 hours to recover from, I did a bunch of other things too. But I still have a p1340 code, it runs fine. This weekend I'm gonna pull the cover off and verify the timing. I'm pretty sure it's on but now I don't know.


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## darryll (Feb 8, 2013)

*to remove or not*

what up VR WORLD:wave im removeing the eng. out of my 95 to do the chains on it and i need some help this my be a littel off sub. but i have no were to go but here so thank's if you can help... fist Q is can i remove the 2dary air injection and if so how do i plug the hole in the block and line's if i do remove will it mess with my timing or the way it run's


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## mavicman (Nov 13, 2000)

darryll said:


> what up VR WORLD:wave im removeing the eng. out of my 95 to do the chains on it and i need some help this my be a littel off sub. but i have no were to go but here so thank's if you can help... fist Q is can i remove the 2dary air injection and if so how do i *plug the hole in the block *and line's if i do remove will it mess with my timing or the way it run's


42DD has an SAI plug.


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## darryll (Feb 8, 2013)

thank you i will look in to that


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## Chewii89 (Apr 26, 2011)

35. Slide the new upper tensioner rail onto its pivot pin (yellow arrow in picture below) and rotate the rail clockwise through the hole in the headgasket. Use a piece of tape or something similar to temporarily hold the rail in the upright position (remove the tape after the upper timing chain and outer intermediate sprocket have been installed). Next, install the new upper guide rail by sliding it onto it's guide pin (green arrow in picture below) and then installing the two (2) 13mm bolts (red and blue arrows in picture below). Use Loctite (blue - med. strength) on the central, shorter bolt (red arrow) and torque both bolts to 15 ft-lbs (20 N-m).

where can i find these bolts? or the size of them


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

I don't know if you want all of them but I know ecstuning had them or maybe the dealer might if you need them in a hurry.


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## filthwagen (Mar 9, 2006)

these pictures are on ALLDATA lol:thumbup:


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## Euro2003 (Sep 19, 2007)

*Preserving the Head Gasket and Timing covers removal*

is there some technique used in separating the upper timing chain cover without damaging the head-gasket and also the same for the lower cover. I am ready to pull mine off, but it seems difficult to pop off- further, the edge of the gasket that sticks out beyond the covers seems very brittle- 
Any ideas would be truly appreciated. I am a bit of a newbee and this is already over my head, but so far is going very well, I just don't want to have to replace my head gasket- that would really be over my head.
( I am doing a Eurovan 2003 AXK VR6 2.8 24V and am doing both chains- 124K and lots of chain noise) I am up to this step succesfully.
Thanks in advance


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## german2sn (Oct 10, 2009)

Euro2003 said:


> is there some technique used in separating the upper timing chain cover without damaging the head-gasket and also the same for the lower cover. I am ready to pull mine off, but it seems difficult to pop off- further, the edge of the gasket that sticks out beyond the covers seems very brittle-
> Any ideas would be truly appreciated. I am a bit of a newbee and this is already over my head, but so far is going very well, I just don't want to have to replace my head gasket- that would really be over my head.
> ( I am doing a Eurovan 2003 AXK VR6 2.8 24V and am doing both chains- 124K and lots of chain noise) I am up to this step succesfully.
> Thanks in advance


not sure how close or how much would be the same on the 24v but the gasket is or should be a three layer metal gasket not brittle at all and don't worry about having to redo head gasket that area of the gasket only keeps oil from leaking no coolant what so ever, try not to scratch it or bend it to much but even if you do you should be fine the worst possible thing that could happen is it leaks a little oil out the covers but not likely....


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

May be too late on this but....

First, verify that in addition to all the bolts that unscrew toward the driver's side that you also remove the two allen (hex) head bolts that unscrew downward. Easy to forget about those.

Once you are certain all retaining hardware has been off'd, getting the upper timing cover off may require some whacking with a mallet. The sealant used to ensure an oil-tight connection is also a bit of an adhesive.


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## Euro2003 (Sep 19, 2007)

Thanks both of you!! I appreciate the advise and encouragement. It indeed came right off and the head gasket was no problem- didn't get damaged at all. The reason I thought it was brittle was two indentations in the gasket which were caked with some old debris, which flaked off, I thought it was part of the gasket, but was not. It just took a bit of a small, light 6 inch prybar straight out. Once the head was separated a crack, it popped right off. I also had to watch the Hall sensors and wasn't sure how they were attached. Having not done this before I didn't want to screw it up. The head gasket was indeed metal with upper and lower coatings. I have to say, this job was a bear, but with care and patience went very well so far. Thanks


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## unasahmed fisch (Jan 20, 2013)

In order to do this you must remove the intake manifold. How do you remove that?


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

unasahmed fisch said:


> In order to do this you must remove the intake manifold. How do you remove that?


There are 6 allen head bolts on the front of the motor, one of them is holding the dipstick tube. And there are 2 allen bolts on the rear ( 1 on each side) of the manifold. Then all various connections.


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## gto0188 (Jan 5, 2013)

Is the camshaft holding tool necessary if replacing only the upper guide rail and tensioner bolt?


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

gto0188 said:


> Is the camshaft holding tool necessary if replacing only the upper guide rail and tensioner bolt?


 No, but I would recommend it just in-case it jumps. I replaced my upper rail and bolt without it and I wish I did have it to verify the timing was spot on. Mine looked to be on but it wasn't off just enough that when I did get the tool it wouldn't go in because my timing was off.


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## Norjack (May 13, 2010)

*upper intake manifold replacement*

I'm just finishing up an upper & lower timing chain/clutch replacement job which was only possible with your excellent DIY guides. Thank you. It seems the most difficult part of the job has been replacing the 6 front intake manifold bolts. There is no room to access them properly let alone torque them. Is there a trick I'm missing. I'm about to get out the saws all !


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## brian500 (Mar 24, 2008)

Unbolt the front motor mount and jack it up. 


Mk2vr6.com like us on facebook


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## rlowride (Jun 14, 2013)

this!!!! freaking great!!!!:thumbup:eace:


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

Norjack said:


> I'm just finishing up an upper & lower timing chain/clutch replacement job which was only possible with your excellent DIY guides. Thank you. It seems the most difficult part of the job has been replacing the 6 front intake manifold bolts. There is no room to access them properly let alone torque them. Is there a trick I'm missing. I'm about to get out the saws all !





brian500 said:


> Unbolt the front motor mount and jack it up.


Just be careful that you don't jack it up too far or you will damage the intake boot, exhaust, or your crank pulley.

Or you can place your front lock in the service position:


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

unasahmed fisch said:


> In order to do this you must remove the intake manifold. How do you remove that?


Here you go:


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## camhockey123 (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm currently getting all my things straight to do this job, and was just wondering if i need the complete ecs kit, with all the replacement hardware or if i can just get the basic kit with the chains, tensioners and guides.


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

I've always used the basic kits from ECS. Be careful with other ECS kits however, they aren't always cheaper than buying separately.


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## brian500 (Mar 24, 2008)

Stay away from ECS timing kits. German Auto parts is what you need.


Mk2vr6.com like us on facebook


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## ez1luv (Nov 23, 2006)

*mk4 vr6 installing timing chains? impossible task...*

Ok here is the story...I got a 99.5 mk4 vr6 jetta that wont start from bent valves. so i got the head redone, new waterpump, timing chains, gasket kits, bla bla bla. everything needed. even vag-com to tell me that the timing is always off and i have set and reset and reseted the timing taken this motor off and on the stand to the car for as many times i can't count it any more. I've set all the timing marks, the cams, the inter, and the crank both of them and for some time now I HAVE YET TO SET A VR6 MOTORS TIMING CORRECT. What is it that makes this so impossible? 
Im at the end of this of this VW World. Funny thing after 10 years... Great life lesson.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

tensioner wasn't mentioned, guides and rails not mentioned


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## Tburger (Sep 11, 2013)

*CrankShaft TDC Alignment*

Hey everyone, I saw this asked earlier but didn't see an answer. I have an 01 jetta vr6 and when I set the crankshaft pully to the TDC notch the ground sprocket does not align with the split in the crankshaft bearing as indicated in the diy. I have the engine and tranny out with all timing components removed. I am stuck here not wanting to put it back together trusing a faulty timing mark. Anybody know what gives here?


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## Ultramagnus0001 (Jun 22, 2006)

Don't go by the crankshaft pulley, they slip on the rubber bushing that's between the outer and inner part of the crank pulley. Mine is off by a little too. I had my tranny out, so I timed it by the marks on the chain side. People on here have mentioned you can stick something like a screwdriver in the sparkplug hole and get TDC that way too.


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## Tburger (Sep 11, 2013)

Ultramagnus0001 said:


> Don't go by the crankshaft pulley, they slip on the rubber bushing that's between the outer and inner part of the crank pulley. Mine is off by a little too. I had my tranny out, so I timed it by the marks on the chain side. People on here have mentioned you can stick something like a screwdriver in the sparkplug hole and get TDC that way too.


Thanks man, that was sort of what I was thinking but it was off by a good three teeth on the sprocket when aligned to the notch on the pulley so I was a bit concerned.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Likely due to worn chains and/or spent tensioner bolt....the whole reason you're in there. Make sure the alignment is spot-on during reassembly.


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## murdox (Sep 10, 2012)

Tburger said:


> Hey everyone, I saw this asked earlier but didn't see an answer. I have an 01 jetta vr6 and when I set the crankshaft pully to the TDC notch the ground sprocket does not align with the split in the crankshaft bearing as indicated in the diy. I have the engine and tranny out with all timing components removed. I am stuck here not wanting to put it back together trusing a faulty timing mark. Anybody know what gives here?


I have a similiar problem to this, except its the intermediate sprocket that does not line up to 6oclock or 12 oclock. The indicator on the sprocket is more or less at 8oclock - hope that makes sense....

I am confident the engine is at TDC though as the main pully is lined up, and the ground tooth is lined up with the split. Also - when i had the head off the 1st cyl and the 6cyl were all the way up! I just torqued down the head and sealed in the new gasket, do i have pull it off again to make sure its timed correctly? What the ef? Motor has about 90k on it, so the chains are factory im guessing. The guides were pretty smashed up in there, is it possible the chain slipped that much?!

FYI - 12v vr6 in a mk2


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## 2.0VEDUB (Oct 26, 2009)

*Need Help ASAP*

Hopefully someone still monitors this thread. 

I have my transmission out and my VC and upper chain cover off. Upper chain guide is in 3 pieces. 

With the crankshaft at TDC I was able to slide the cam locking tool in on 1 cam but the rear cam is slightly off. 

After I remove all the chains and I verify that the Crank is at TDC can I use a wrench and turn the camshaft so I can slide the I can slide the locking tool in place? I'm assuming that if I can do that I should be turning the cam clockwise?


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## 2.0VEDUB (Oct 26, 2009)

Also I know that some valves will be open no matter the position of the cam. How do I tell what position is correct? the opening for the cam lock tool is only slightly off. Can i just rotate it backwards (maybe a tooth) and slide the tool in?


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

2.0VEDUB said:


> After I remove all the chains and I verify that the Crank is at TDC can I use a wrench and turn the camshaft so I can slide the I can slide the locking tool in place? I'm assuming that if I can do that I should be turning the cam clockwise?





2.0VEDUB said:


> Also I know that some valves will be open no matter the position of the cam. How do I tell what position is correct? the opening for the cam lock tool is only slightly off. Can i just rotate it backwards (maybe a tooth) and slide the tool in?


Yes. Just rotate the cam till it lines up. Even-though it's not lined up it shouldn't be that far off, assuming it was running before you started the work. *Don't rotate the cam a full turn*. You can go forwards or backwards just got enough till the tool lines up. The tool should slide in effortlessly. It's possible that it jumped a tooth and now you are a tooth off. Also since you have the upper timing cover off there isn't any tension on the chain right now that could be possibly why it isn't lining up. Maybe put the timing cover on and the tensioner in then get the tool in.


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## 2.0VEDUB (Oct 26, 2009)

grantndub said:


> Yes. Just rotate the cam till it lines up. Even-though it's not lined up it shouldn't be that far off, assuming it was running before you started the work. *Don't rotate the cam a full turn*. You can go forwards or backwards just got enough till the tool lines up. The tool should slide in effortlessly. It's possible that it jumped a tooth and now you are a tooth off. Also since you have the upper timing cover off there isn't any tension on the chain right now that could be possibly why it isn't lining up. Maybe put the timing cover on and the tensioner in then get the tool in.


Thanks. I tried inserting the alignment tool before the cover was off/ tensioner removed. It wouldn't line up correctly so i figured I would set the cam to the correct position after i removed the chains. Just wanted to be sure I could do it this way before I went ahead and tried it. The car ran but it was lacking power which is why I decided to do the chains. It was pretty quiet too which was a surprise considering the guide was in three pieces. The only "noise" I heard was for a few seconds on start up. 

Thanks for the advice on not rotating the cam a full turn. I know trying to do that would cause the valve to make contact with the piston. I'll be working on the car again on Wednesday so I'll try going backwards a little. It slid into the short cam no problem. The long one was just a little off.


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## hellah fresh (Jun 17, 2009)

*01 Jetta VR6*

Hello! Im doing my timing chain right now and im running into a problem of my Balance shaft isn't lining up right. Im trying to figure out if the inner key mark is right. I lined up the inner markings on the balance shaft which is around 5 o' clock. Then i notice the inner key mark is off to the side. this causing the cylinders to run into the valves on the head. This is a friends car that he just got so i was wondering if maybe someone installed the wrong balance shaft onto the car?


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## 2.0VEDUB (Oct 26, 2009)

:thumbup: This DIY is awesome. With the exception of a few very minor differences on my car this DIY was spot on. 

Don't know if it was mentioned before but I had to remove the bumper in order to slide the radiator forward to get to the 4 middle intake mani bolts. I just saved myself about $1300. Thanks for this and the help. :beer:


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## nybbles2byte (Oct 28, 2013)

*An Upper Rear Timing Chain Guide Workaround for eariler models - MK3's*

As you know in the old VR6's there is no way to replace this part without separating the motor from the transmission but that was more than I was willing to do since my next step with this motor will be to just replace the whole thing.

For anyone else who comes across this problem here's an alternative:


Call an industrial adhesive company and buy aerospace epoxy -- rated to about 400 degrees F and plenty strong;
Buy a replacement part (important: make sure it's the original 2 part design!);
Drill out the rivets of the new part so you get the new plastic part;
Remove the plastic part from the old piece taking care not to get bad things down in the engine. I used rags and a vacuum cleaner;
One way to remove the lower rivets is to use the snake head of a Dremel and a tiny grinding head which is how I did it;
Rivet the new plastic part of the new guide at the top onto the old backing (make sure you get it the right way up);
Use that amazing glue to glue the rest of the piece down because there is no way you can rivet the bottom.
You could do the glue before the rivets but I did the rivets first. If there ever was a second time around I probably would do the previous two steps in reverse order;
Clamp for the appropriate time for the glue.


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## jerryel1nico (Aug 4, 2012)

Cannot loosen intermediate sprocket 
Is it connected to anything when off the chains?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Impact wrench, it will be on there tight (similar to the cams).


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## jerryel1nico (Aug 4, 2012)

I already took the guides out like a dumb*** so how'd I be able to time the intermediate sprocket and also how can I tension the chains so it can have a counter force on the crankshaft


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## BettyMk3 (Dec 7, 2010)

Now on the intermediate sprocket, it states to line up. I noticed in some pictures it was a little off? I can not get it to line up exact when I have the tensioner on just like in most pics. Am I doing something wrong?


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

*ANYONE LOOKING FOR HELP WITH MK3 VR6'S TEARDOWN & REBUILD OF THE MOTOR OR TRANS HELP PM ME ON VW VOETEX OR EMAIL ME @ [email protected]*

I also have a place where you can download a copy of the mk3 jetta/gti Bentley manual from me if you need one.


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## chicows18 (Jul 13, 2006)

*Issue after replacing timing chain*

I just did the timing chain replacement. Followed the instructions here, as well as alldata, as well as the timing chain replacement book guidelines. Bought the tools for the camshaft alignment as well as the tool for the crankshaft alignment. Put everything back and at first the car felt like it stumbled but then after about 10 minutes, it even out. Engine sound good and runs nicely. Problem i noticed is that when I rev the engine up to about 3000 RPM or so, I head rattling going on. I don't understand why. I would think it would rattle at lower RPMs not higher RPMs. Any suggestions advice?


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

chicows18 said:


> I just did the timing chain replacement. Followed the instructions here, as well as alldata, as well as the timing chain replacement book guidelines. Bought the tools for the camshaft alignment as well as the tool for the crankshaft alignment. Put everything back and at first the car felt like it stumbled but then after about 10 minutes, it even out. Engine sound good and runs nicely. Problem i noticed is that when I rev the engine up to about 3000 RPM or so, I head rattling going on. I don't understand why. I would think it would rattle at lower RPMs not higher RPMs. Any suggestions advice?


Is the check engine light on? It's possible you are hearing the intake shift rod rattling. Look up how to check if that your noise.


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## chicows18 (Jul 13, 2006)

Check engine light is not on. Also, I have noticed that the plastic intake manifold blows up a little when I accelerate. It flexes right where those butterfly's or rod would be and also on the throttle body side. How do I check that?


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

Did you make sure and bleed the upper tensioner correctly?


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## Grabcon (Feb 27, 2014)

*Threw timing chain yesterday*

First I am new to the forum and need some questions answered before I proceed with my tear down to replace the timing chain.

Vehicle is a 2002 VW GTI VR6 12 valve - 5 speed manual

I drove the car yesterday and stopped at a store. Turned the car off I came out to leave and the car just turned over. Towed to my mechanic and he has told me that there is no compression, meaning that most likely the upper timing chain failed. I need to do the work myself, (I cannot afford to pay the mechanics hourly rate), so I have a couple of questions before I start. 

If the timing chain has failed how is the best way to check for bent valves? Is a leak down test the best method? Of course the cams would need to be removed to do this. Or what other options are there before one pulls the head to check the valves or if I need to pull the head at all?

Second there seems to be two methods to replace the timing chain, 1) pull the motor or 2) pull the transmission. I am opting for pulling the transmission. So how high does the car need to be to get the tranny out? Lets say from the bottom of the motor to the ground.

Thanks in advance.


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

Grabcon said:


> First I am new to the forum and need some questions answered before I proceed with my tear down to replace the timing chain.
> 
> Vehicle is a 2002 VW GTI VR6 12 valve - 5 speed manual
> 
> ...



Your best bet would be to start a new topic about doing a leakdown test. It has a better chance of getting good advice.

No need to remove the head unless you see anomalous conditions with a leak down test. I would pull off the intake manifold and inspect the chains from the top. Then, if the chains were in good condition, I would rotate the crank, keeping an eye out for anything out of the ordinary. Once that passed, I would do a leak down test (or a modified version of a leak down test).

If you have a broken chain, you can count on bent valves and should remove the head to repair.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...iming-Chain-Guide-Replacement-720p-How-to-DIY

I pulled the trans because I had a lift and a cherry picker. You need the cherry picker to lift the engine a few inches and move it as far to the passenger side as possible to pull the transmission shaft out of the flywheel. Benefit is you don't have to mess with a/c connections or figure out a way to keep the a/c system intact. You will need a minimum of your bench-pressing height to remove the trans. Ideally, you would have the trans near shoulder/head height.


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## hares1370 (Sep 27, 2009)

I did my chains and I have that marble sound at 2k. It doesn't make and noise during idle but what do you all think. I've been driving it for 2 years since I did the chains


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## garrettkent.gk (Jun 14, 2014)

Just wanted to drop by and say a big thank you!

Just did this job this past week and wouldn't have been able to do it without this thread! :beer::beer:


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

VgRt6 said:


> 42. Using the 27mm wrench or socket, rotate the crankshaft clockwise two (2) full rotations and then line up the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley (notch on pulley and mark on block - see steps 5 and 6). This will cause the camshafts to rotate one (1) full rotation. If the engine is timed correctly, you should be able to slide the cam locking tool (or plate(s)) back into the grooves in the camshafts. *If this does occur, then you've timed the engine properly and you can seal things up*. Congratulations. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0"> If this does not occur, then there is a problem with the engine timing. You'll either need to figure out what is wrong and fix it, or remove everything and start again from scratch. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.vortexmediagroup.com/images/banghead.gif" BORDER="0"> If you've been checking the timing marks throughout the installation procedure as suggested, the engine will most likely be timed correctly.<p>


So if the plates slide back in as stated...that means the intermendiate shaft is also correct??

Sorry if this has been covered. I read throught the post twice, hope i didnt miss it...

Reason I ask is because I need to check my timing now after having the local shop do my chains. A few guys are suggesting to check it because of how its running.

Thanks so much! Love the thread!


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> So if the plates slide back in as stated...that means the intermendiate shaft is also correct??
> 
> Sorry if this has been covered. I read throught the post twice, hope i didnt miss it...
> 
> ...


Nope. If the plates slide back into the camshaft notches that means your camshafts are timed correctly. To verify the timing of your intermediate sprockets you must remove the upper timing chain cover and look for the notch in the intermediate sprocket facing upwards while camshafts plates are in correctly.
Just read through it one more time and you'll understand my point.
Good luck.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> Nope. If the plates slide back into the camshaft notches that means your camshafts are timed correctly. To verify the timing of your intermediate sprockets you must remove the upper timing chain cover and look for the notch in the intermediate sprocket facing upwards while camshafts plates are in correctly.
> Just read through it one more time and you'll understand my point.
> Good luck.


I do understand your point. Thats the reason Im asking for clarification....


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

[quote name="Boogie_manVR6" post=85922237]Nope. If the plates slide back into the camshaft notches that means your camshafts are timed correctly. To verify the timing of your intermediate sprockets you must remove the upper timing chain cover and look for the notch in the intermediate sprocket facing upwards while camshafts plates are in correctly.<br />
Just read through it one more time and you'll understand my point.<br />
Good luck.[/QUOTE]<br />
<br />
I do understand your point. Thats the reason Im asking for clarification....<br/>

Where are you located brother?

VR6PACK


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

This is at the guy asking about the timing for clarification... Not the post above,I'm just referencing this.

VR6PACK


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> This is at the guy asking about the timing for clarification... Not the post above,I'm just referencing this.
> 
> VR6PACK


I'm north of Toronto Ontario. Why?


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## VR6SHOTS (Jul 9, 2004)

looks….dare i say frightening lol


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## RoseBud68 (Dec 13, 2012)

Not that bad at all if you follow the DIY.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> So if the plates slide back in as stated...that means the intermendiate shaft is also correct??
> 
> Sorry if this has been covered. I read throught the post twice, hope i didnt miss it...
> 
> ...


Never mind....the timing is fine. There was another problem. Still pings tho


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## VR6SHOTS (Jul 9, 2004)

My motor is out. Trans is seperated. 
And I ordered a clutch kit and complete chain 
Kit. 
Besides the thermostat housing and crack pipe. 
Any other suggestions before dropping this into my mk2

I think I can handle this job being that it's out the car and on a hoist...


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

VR6SHOTS said:


> My motor is out. Trans is seperated.
> And I ordered a clutch kit and complete chain
> Kit.
> Besides the thermostat housing and crack pipe.
> ...


I changed my trans fluid while I was in the same situation. Did your clutch kit come with a throw-out bearing and throw-out fork? If not, you might want to consider those.


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## zarkzilla (Apr 3, 2011)

bump


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## MillCreekGinster (May 10, 2004)

In addition to the timing chain kit from GAP and rear main seal. Does this project require valve cover gasket and intake manifold gasket?

Also, where do I find that little Green O Ring?


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## coltonski (Sep 29, 2011)

*Just completed this job*



Grabcon said:


> First I am new to the forum and need some questions answered before I proceed with my tear down to replace the timing chain.
> 
> Vehicle is a 2002 VW GTI VR6 12 valve - 5 speed manual
> 
> ...


Just did both timing chains on an 01 GTI VR6. It would have been impossible without the DIY guide and these forums. There was significant timing chain noise, later we could see where the upper chain was hitting the cover.
The large black upper chain guide failed and was ground into several pieces. This jumped the upper chain, which in turn bent all 12 valves, so NO compression in any cylinder, we confirmed with compression test on cylinder 6 as it was easiest to get to. I would definitely recommend replacing the long black upper guide sooner than later, and it can be accessed from the top.
Upon teardown we saw that the smaller intermediate timing gear had lost two teeth as well. So we did 12 new valves, lapped them in ourselves, new valve seals, and a clutch since we had to remove the tranny anyway (85K miles).
Almost totally screwed the pooch when we had a severe oil leak at startup. Turns out I did not get the rear main seal on the crank properly, as the bottom 3 inches of the seal was pushed out to the drivers side. Mind you this was after we got this puppy ALL the way back together. CRAP! Pulled the oil pan and could see the folded rubber crank seal. We managed to pull the lip back through with a very small L shaped pick!! If I would have had to pull the tranny again I would have killed myself. It started right up and had a lifter tick, that went way in about 10 minutes. Now really quiet and seems to run better than ever, no oil drips or water leaks. Total cost for clutch, bearing, valves, seals, head gasket and oils was about $1100.
Shop quoted $2500 min up to $3500 possible. Even with all the valves bent, we only had very minor contact with the pistons. Since there was no overheating we did not surface the head either. Putting valves in with a large C clamp and O2 sensor socket was a pain in the ass, but I could not find a rental spring compressor. I could now do this entire job in 1/3 the time.
One thing to note is that when you remove the tranny/engine mount (drivers side) there is really nothing holding the engine, meaning that the passenger side mount simply sticks into the rubber and is not captured in any way. So when you lower the tranny side to remove, the engine will FALL OUT of the other mount....ask me how I know! We ended up using a cherry picker on the drivers side and used a large clamp to hold the other mount together.
We also left the exhaust manifolds connected to the pipes which worked OK, slightly tricky getting the head back on though. We did drain the tranny and removed the drivers side flange, which is spring loaded and a bitch to get back in and get the bolt started. I also broke one injector, so that was $150 bucks. Watch out for all the o-rings when you take off your fuel rail, mine went flying.
The toughest part was getting the tranny aligned and back in, probably took 20 minutes of futzing, good upper body strength helps here.
Thanks for all the help and tips guys, my ride is back better than ever.


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## jtate721 (Dec 12, 2009)

*Please help*

I am doing the upper and lower chains on a 2001 vr6 auto. I have everything apart(lower chain exposed) I have all the new chains, tensioner, and guides installed. This is where I'm lost. I completed the chain replacement based on the ground tooth on the crank sprocket. After rotating the engine over several time by hand, everything lined back up like it should, cam locking tool slides back in place, the ground tooth on the crank lined back up with the crack in the cap. I then did one last inspection, and the mark on the harmonic balancer is not lined up with the mark on the front of the engine, but the ground tooth is still lined up perfect. What gives??? I have not had the car long, could the harmonic balancer have been replaced and not put on straight??? Need to figure this out before I put the Trans back in. Thanks for any help or insight to this problem.


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## swrider77 (Feb 7, 2013)

*Reset timing of camshafts when NOT at TDC???*

So, i am neck deep into this DIY, but right off the bat I had an issue. In step 3 you should be able to slide in the locking tool into the ends of both cam shaft when at TDC. Well this didn't happen. I don't know how but the camshafts were off, making me guess that the timing was already screwed up. Didn't think much of it, didn't even try to slide in the locking tool, just left it alone thinking that I would fix the timing at the end of the DIY.
Well now I am at the end of the DIY but I am not sure how to set the timing with the camshafts being off!!!
I understand how all the marks work on the sprockets, but what I don't see is how I will make both camshafts align???
I haven't removed the chains yet and the engine is not at TDC... 
So how do I fix this???
Can anyone here guide me out of this mess???
I cannot turn the engine any more, i come to a stop when trying to turn the engine to TDC, which is weird because I was able to do this before, I guess I am hitting an obstruction with the chains still on.
So I can remove the chainsn and replace all components, recheck the marks on the sprockets, but how do I realing the camshafts for correct timing?
Can I just loosen the camshafts and let the valve spring open, then with the chains removed turn the engine to TDC, lock the camshafts in place and redo the timing???
Anyone?


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

Did you happen to have a p1340 code?



swrider77 said:


> So how do I fix this???


Sounds like you timing is off now. I'm assuming you have the upper cover off meaning there's not tension on the upper chain, if you tried to rotate it with the cover off it probably jumped. And now you way off. The cams can be rotated to slide the tool in, try to rotate them as little as possible and it if starts to take too much force *STOP*. When I did mine I accidentally started to rotate the engine with the cover off and one of the cams jumped and was off. Not much but off then I got it back and put the lock back.



swrider77 said:


> I cannot turn the engine any more, i come to a stop when trying to turn the engine to TDC, which is weird because I was able to do this before, I guess I am hitting an obstruction with the chains still on.


Your probably at the point where stuff is binding. Which is where you should *STOP. *Removing everything and starting from the beginning may be easier. Starting with getting the crank at TDC then the cams.


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## 69xchange (Nov 4, 2014)

This thing has been stressing me out. I bought all new timing components both chains, upper + lower guide and tensioner rails and also the 27mm tensioner bolt but I can never get the timing dead on.. My inner intermediate sprocket is always off by a bit and i've tried both 6 o clock position + 12 o clock but i can never get it perfect with the lower chain wrapped on it. The bottom crank pulley is lined up with the mark on the block and on the other side, the ground tooth is also lined up with the main bearing split. Multiple times after i installed everything, rotated the crank 2 full revolutions with the tensioner bolt bled and expanded, I would have to past the TDC mark in order to slip the cam locking plates in. However on my final attempt, after lining everything up again except the intermediate sprocket (off by a few hair), and rotating 2 full revolutions, I was finally able to slide the cam locking plate in w/ the mark dead on and the groove visible from the top. With everything "timed", my intermediate sprocket is still not 100% lined up. Below is an idea of how much its off by. Is this acceptable?

Also i want to ask, when expanding the old style tensioner bolt too far out, could it throw the timing off?? Reason why i asked is because on my final attempt, everything was basically done the same except i shrunk the tensioner bolt a bit and timing was dead on.


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

69xchange said:


> This thing has been stressing me out. I bought all new timing components both chains, upper + lower guide and tensioner rails and also the 27mm tensioner bolt but I can never get the timing dead on.. My inner intermediate sprocket is always off by a bit and i've tried both 6 o clock position + 12 o clock but i can never get it perfect with the lower chain wrapped on it. The bottom crank pulley is lined up with the mark on the block and on the other side, the ground tooth is also lined up with the main bearing split. Multiple times after i installed everything, rotated the crank 2 full revolutions with the tensioner bolt bled and expanded, I would have to past the TDC mark in order to slip the cam locking plates in. However on my final attempt, after lining everything up again except the intermediate sprocket (off by a few hair), and rotating 2 full revolutions, I was finally able to slide the cam locking plate in w/ the mark dead on and the groove visible from the top. With everything "timed", my intermediate sprocket is still not 100% lined up. Below is an idea of how much its off by. Is this acceptable?
> 
> Also i want to ask, when expanding the old style tensioner bolt too far out, could it throw the timing off?? Reason why i asked is because on my final attempt, everything was basically done the same except i shrunk the tensioner bolt a bit and timing was dead on.


I don't see anything wrong with your picture - looks to be perfectly aligned to 12 o'clock mark? Here's your picture, I've just highlighted the mark with yellow color.










-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Just wondering which sealant do you guys use to seal timing chain covers on VR6?

If it starts to leak, re-sealing would mean removing transmission again, so obviously it *NEEDS* to be done right the first time ;=)

I have found a few sealants in my tool box:











Left is gray RTV silicone (made by Permatex), the middle one is red sealant (not silicone-based) used by Toyota/Mitsu to seal transmissions/gearboxes (made by Nippon Chemicals) and the right one is blue "Reinzoplast" (polyurethane-based). Are any of them good for this job?

If you did your timing chains on VR6 yourself which sealant did you use and why?

Of course, VW recommends to use their very own (P/N AMV18800102), but at price of $70 it smells like a rip-off.

Let me know what do you think.

-albertr


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

albertr said:


> Just wondering which sealant do you guys use to seal timing chain covers on VR6?
> 
> If it starts to leak, re-sealing would mean removing transmission again, so obviously it *NEEDS* to be done right the first time ;=)
> 
> ...



I've used Permatex (Black IIRC) on both of my VWs. Tens of thousands of miles and years later, no issues. I wouldn't have any qualms using the Permatex grey you have there. I would leave the transmission stuff for transmissions due to the differences in oil and transmission fluid. The Reinzoplast may be a bit harder to get off later, if anything ever needs done in there. VW's sealants are usually rebranded from commonly available products and sold at markup to dissuade any DIY/indies. I don't have first hand knowledge of who the OE supplier is though, in this case.


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Great, thanks! I'll go with silicone-based Permatex then.

-albertr


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Do your chains people. Buddy brought his car over... said it sounded like a diesel. I started tearing into it and here's the results.


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Anything else was damaged besides that long rail? I have found that my intermediate shaft sprocket has developed the following deep groves (regrettably only visible when it has been removed, since they are on its inner side). 

It looks fine from outside.










But inner side is a different story -










Close-out shot - 










-albertr


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## franciscomk3 (Feb 27, 2012)

^totally related to my question.

Do you guys replace both intermediate shaft sprockets?
How much and where do you get them from?

What about the cam sprockets?

Also, what bolts do I need to replace other than flywheel?

Super helpful diy


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

I had to replace the smaller intermediate shaft sprocket (one that drives upper chain) only because of the damage chain did to it. All other sprockets on this engine were fine. That was 2001 24V VR6 (AXK code).
Bently manual calls to replace the sprocket bolt as well, which I did.

-albertr


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Out of curiosity, what was the milage on that 24v? I've been told they never need chains done...


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

147K miles and it had a *VERY* loud chain rattle. Also, engine has suffered from sludge, previous owner was using Pep Boy's for oil changes 

-albertr


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Ahhhh, I see Lol! Oil and oil change intervals does make all the difference!!


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

albertr said:


> Anything else was damaged besides that long rail?
> 
> -albertr


The pin/bolt that the rail clips around had chain impressions.
Upper timing chain cover had evidence of contact with chains.
Lower tensioner fully extended.

Owner is "frugal" refuses to replace any hardware above and beyond that contained in the timing chain kit itself so all gears and associated bolts were reused.


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## hondacrf1500 (Sep 27, 2010)

After reading through the DIY I have 1 standing question. I'm doing a complete engine rebuild and I see no markings on the chains for direction? Does direction not matter when there new? The upper chain has 3 copper colored links together and 2 other links copper colored.....


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## grantndub (Aug 22, 2008)

hondacrf1500 said:


> After reading through the DIY I have 1 standing question. I'm doing a complete engine rebuild and I see no markings on the chains for direction? Does direction not matter when there new? The upper chain has 3 copper colored links together and 2 other links copper colored.....



Direction doesn't matter


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

The colored links might be helpful to make sure there're exactly 16 links between cam sprockets. Direction shouldn't matter if it's a new chain.

-albertr


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## rdhouston (Oct 12, 2014)

So we replaced the chain guides and pulled the trans as I didn't know where all the pieces had gone from the upper guide. Replaced the clutch for good measure.. had to disassemble trans due to the conical bolt washer falling inside and we couldn't fetch it out. All reassembled, sounds good. Turns over ok but won't fire. About to check for spark but just wondering if there's any ecm issue I should know about as the battery's been disconnected for weeks.


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## rdhouston (Oct 12, 2014)

Well we have spark and fuel at the engine. Didn't take too much cranking to kill the battery, maybe it's shot. My son was cranking starter while I was checking spark by grounding a wire and it stopped turning over when I saw spark. 

Any feedback is appreciated.



rdhouston said:


> So we replaced the chain guides and pulled the trans as I didn't know where all the pieces had gone from the upper guide. Replaced the clutch for good measure.. had to disassemble trans due to the conical bolt washer falling inside and we couldn't fetch it out. All reassembled, sounds good. Turns over ok but won't fire. About to check for spark but just wondering if there's any ecm issue I should know about as the battery's been disconnected for weeks.


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## rdhouston (Oct 12, 2014)

rdhouston said:


> Well we have spark and fuel at the engine. Didn't take too much cranking to kill the battery, maybe it's shot. My son was cranking starter while I was checking spark by grounding a wire and it stopped turning over when I saw spark.
> 
> Any feedback is appreciated.


Ok, it lives. Turns out the alarm had it shut off. Locked, unlocked the doors and away she went. Has a CEL but runs and shifts good Speedo doesn't work but I think that one of the connectors was kinda trashed and it's probably that one.

Thanks for this write-up and the trans write-up. Never could have done this without them.


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## noanoxan (Jan 8, 2014)

I recently replaced the top guide and tensioner bolt as a quick fix until I get the time to do it right, but I thought I'd offer a bit of advice when reinstalling the top timing cover. Run a pipe cleaner through the tensioner bolt oil feed hole after torquing the cover down to make sure the hole isn't sealed up with rtv. A tiny bore brush would work too, I suppose.


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## soupercoupe (Jan 30, 2015)

*replacing timing chain*

total bull crap that you have to remove transmission to get to a timing chain, typically timing chain at opposite end from tranny on most other cars, much easier, German engineering. i codeP1340 on my 2000 VR6 which is "camshaft/crankshaft position sensor signals out of sequence., car has 210k miles on it, im sure the sensors are fine and will need to replace timing chain, bet that's the reason someone sold me pile for cheap.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

soupercoupe said:


> total bull crap that you have to remove transmission to get to a timing chain, typically timing chain at opposite end from tranny on most other cars, much easier, German engineering. i codeP1340 on my 2000 VR6 which is "camshaft/crankshaft position sensor signals out of sequence., car has 210k miles on it, im sure the sensors are fine and will need to replace timing chain, bet that's the reason someone sold me pile for cheap.


Thanks for contributing to the thread. Let #4 be your last. :thumbup:


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

soupercoupe said:


> bet that's the reason someone sold me pile for cheap.


Yep. Suck it up buttercup.


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## soupercoupe (Jan 30, 2015)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> Yep. Suck it up buttercup.


oh ya...Im going to suck it up and never quit..I see the potential in this car but never thought I'd see the day to drop a tranny to replace a timing chain.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Every engine has at least one inconvenience engineered into it. Just be happy its a chain and not a belt and do it every 100k. You'll end up having that car longer than you want to if you stick to this.


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## soupercoupe (Jan 30, 2015)

*Dont throw me overboard just yet*

You got to understand me venting, but don't want to be booted from this forum, I need you guys more than you need me for obvious reasons..LOL
I wrenched a lot of different cars over the years and to remove a tranny to change a timing chain to satisfy a Check engine light to satisfy a smog check is just hard to swallow.

So I'm doing my research to prepare for auto tranny removal (VR6 4-speed auto tranny) and I cant seem to find a DIY or any post specific on an Auto tranny removal, just the one DIY on manual tranny, I did purchase the Bentley
Service manuals so I guess that's all I can find thus far?


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## soupercoupe (Jan 30, 2015)

*replacing only the upper chain and components*

so I got error code P1340 on my 2000 VR6 which is "camshaft/crankshaft position sensor signals out of sequence. which is a suspect for a stretched timing chain, I mainly want to fix the error code and get car smoged, has anyone just replaced the upper chain and tensioner and guides only without removing the tranny and able to satisfy that error code? BY waht I mean is just replacing the upper chain and components and not the lower chain and components and satisfy the P1340 error code. Also I cant find any info on the timing cover seal? does it use a seal to purchase or do you only use a Silicone sealant?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Its just a sealant on the timing cover.

Whether you can get away with replacing just one chain depends on which chain is stretched...and you wont' know that without replacing one or the other...then it becomes a matter of, if you're going that far into it...why not do it all = do it right?

There are several pathways to slack timing. The two chains stretching, the plastic guides wearing, or the hydraulic tensioner not doing it's thing. Buy the complete kit and do it all, bro.


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## mcalash (Nov 2, 2010)

*Original Pictures are Gone?*

Has the forum removed the original pics? Can we get these replaced please?


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## soupercoupe (Jan 30, 2015)

mcalash said:


> Has the forum removed the original pics? Can we get these replaced please?


seems to be a lot of missing files and data on this forum lately.


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## soupercoupe (Jan 30, 2015)

*Removal of Automatic tranny to replace timing chain assembly*



vr6pilot said:


> Its just a sealant on the timing cover.
> 
> Whether you can get away with replacing just one chain depends on which chain is stretched...and you wont' know that without replacing one or the other...then it becomes a matter of, if you're going that far into it...why not do it all = do it right?
> 
> There are several pathways to slack timing. The two chains stretching, the plastic guides wearing, or the hydraulic tensioner not doing it's thing. Buy the complete kit and do it all, bro.


Below is a link of 01M automatic transmission removal, I purchased a Bentley Manual and used that for reference, everyone has a different way to skin a cat. There is a download version of Bentley manual somewhere mentioned on this forum as well.
I wanted to contribute to the forum by attaching photos and such during my transmission removal and timing chain replacement but since this seems to be an OLD SCHOOL forum where you have to upload your pics to an URL site first is just too much of a headache., I am on many forums and some forums allow you just to drag and drop a photo file from your PC. so now I'm spoiled and don't want to go through the trouble of posting photos on an URL. 

I have every right to speak my concern to other VW owners who may be in the same situation as I am, I'm still shaking my head to have to remove tranny to get to a timing chain, and now to add insult to injury I had to move the front radiator clip away from the engine several inches just to remove the upper plenum. I'm sure the 4 cylinder enthusiast don't to have so much grief since the engine isn't wedged/crammed into the engine bay like the VR6 does.

So while I have everything torn apart I replaced oil seals on tranny and engine as well for good measure. I found a engine hoist crossbar for a good price at harbor freight Item #96524 to suspend engine while tranny is removed alternate for VW# 10-222A and 10-222A/1, plus I used a porta-power from harbor freight Item #44899 as well to push engine forward slightly for easier removal of the tranny. The Bentley book recommends a VW tool #3300A but I found the Porta- power was faster to get and cheap and can be used in many aspects of a mechanics lifetime or may even use a bottle jack or scissor jack? Also Harbor Freight has hose pinch clamps Item #99704 or Item #65116 to replace the VW#3094

The timing chain should outlast the car and engine, I feel there is a design flaw in the tensioner system, the plastic tensioner parts structurally breakdown from oil and vapor and break into many pieces and allow the chain to get loose and jump a tooth or give you a timing issue or a codeP1340 which is "camshaft/crankshaft position sensor signals out of sequence.
When I dropped the oil the pan it had no dirt or sludge in it so this car was well taken are of during its lifetime, you could tell they used high grade oil and changed it often and yet the timing chain system still failed.


link to 01M 4-speed automatic transmission removal.

http://kansascitytdi.com/01m-transmission-removal-and-re-installation/


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## soupercoupe (Jan 30, 2015)

*premature wear of a timing chain sprocket*



vr6pilot said:


> Every engine has at least one inconvenience engineered into it. Just be happy its a chain and not a belt and do it every 100k. You'll end up having that car longer than you want to if you stick to this.


here is a link of a guy with the newer VR6 24V engine where he had a timing chain sprocket that wasn't hardened and wore out after only 56K miles, this is not an engineering issue but a QC issue.
http://www.reesphotos.com/VW/


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## PiineApple (Dec 26, 2014)

Would be amazing if this thread was reposted somehow, been relying on this to do my own chains.


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## undwirtanzten (Feb 9, 2011)

holy crap that engine is DIRTY. I replaced my valve cover gasket at 240k miles and it wasn't even half as sludgey as the one in your pics. you say these are pics of one at 150k?! what kind of oil are you running? how often do you change it? what kind of gas are you using? are you changing your filters at recommended intervals? just shocked that one could be that dirty inside compared to mine with almost double the mileage.....wanna make sure I keep doing whatever I'm doing differently lol


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## undwirtanzten (Feb 9, 2011)

soupercoupe said:


> total bull crap that you have to remove transmission to get to a timing chain, typically timing chain at opposite end from tranny on most other cars, much easier, German engineering. i codeP1340 on my 2000 VR6 which is "camshaft/crankshaft position sensor signals out of sequence., car has 210k miles on it, im sure the sensors are fine and will need to replace timing chain, bet that's the reason someone sold me pile for cheap.


except that this is an "inline vee" engine, not an inline or a vee, but both. all the accessories are on the other side of the engine. a lot of them require that you raise or lower the engine to get to them as is....there isn't enough room on the tranny side for the accessories, and to put the chains behind all the accessories would mean it takes longer to get to than putting chains on tranny side and having to remove the tranny.
the german engineering that you seem to hate shaves 2-4 hours off the job time compared to what it would take if the chains were where you want them.


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

I work at VW. If you guys need anything or some help let me know and I'll do what I can to help out the best I can.


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## holywar0902 (Aug 9, 2009)

I took of my valve cover to set my timing and install my locking tool on the cams. The slot on the end of the cam in the odd number bank is still slightly tilted. The slot on the cam in the even bank is flat. I'm guessing it jumped a tooth or 2, engine still rotates, how can I get the odd bank lined up like the even bank?


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

Did you start with your lower chains and trans alignment


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## holywar0902 (Aug 9, 2009)

No I just took the valve cover off and turned the crank to tdc.


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

Sounds like you might be off on the intermediate sprockets (top or bottom maybe) hard to say without seeing it


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I'm going to drop this in here one more time because it is incredibly relevant, especially since these cars are older now and are coming into people's lives as second-hand rides.

*DO NOT PUSH-START A VR6!*

Seeing one camshaft out of sync with the other is what you will get. Manual tranny's only, of course. Even with healthy chains and guides, you will jump a tooth on the cam sprockets due to no oil pressure in the hydraulic tensioner unit. Will it happen every time? Spin the wheel and find out, kids. Once done, very hard to get them sync'd again. You'll have to at least go through removing the upper timing cover.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Here's another note for people whining about "lifetime" parts. 

"Lifetime", in the world of automobiles, has a legal definition which runs to about 7 years and/or 105,000 miles or, in some cases, only for the duration of the original warranty. Anyone who thinks that "lifetime" literally means it will work perfectly for all eternity needs to take a course on critical thinking or, perhaps, have their head whacked with a CV shaft. 

Further: I've read so many posts where people think they are smarter than the automotive engineers and complain about the guides being made of plastic. Would you suggest metal? Constant metal-to-metal contact at high velocity in a high-temperature environment probably isn't the way to go. If you have any lubrication issues whatsoever, you are done. You guys running pep boys brand straight-30 with 45,000 mile intervals would really hate that and then you'd be right back on here smack-talking the stupid vw engineers. The guides are made of thermoplastic so that a shortcoming in the oil department won't condemn the engine. I replaced my first set of guides at 98,000 miles. Things wear-out people.


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## holywar0902 (Aug 9, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Sounds like you might be off on the intermediate sprockets (top or bottom maybe) hard to say without seeing it


Could you explain a little further for me? I can see the key on the intermediate shaft when I set the crank to tdc. Seems like the crank the intake cam and the intermediate sprocket are where they are supposed to be right?

Is removing the chain and clocking the exhaust cam a no no?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

You need get that timing cover off. If in fact you 'jumped a tooth', you'll need enough slack in the chain in order to put the cam back into correct position and then lay the chain tightly back onto that cam's sprocket.
Another way, but still requiring timing cover removal, is to take the sprocket off the end of the cam. Then you can fit the teeth back into the chain one tooth over and reinstall onto cam.


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## holywar0902 (Aug 9, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> You need get that timing cover off. If in fact you 'jumped a tooth', you'll need enough slack in the chain in order to put the cam back into correct position and then lay the chain tightly back onto that cam's sprocket.
> Another way, but still requiring timing cover removal, is to take the sprocket off the end of the cam. Then you can fit the teeth back into the chain one tooth over and reinstall onto cam.


Thank you, I pulled the cover about 30 minutes ago. Broken guide...we all all know the drill. 
Most likely pulling the trans and doing it right the first time.

Let's get dirty


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

holywar0902 said:


> pulling the trans and doing it right the first time.


This :thumbup:

At least you got the timing cover off and are now able to _know_ what the issue is. Note: the tranny weighs around 80 lbs. She's a chunk.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

vr6pilot said:


> I'm going to drop this in here one more time because it is incredibly relevant, especially since these cars are older now and are coming into people's lives as second-hand rides.
> 
> *DO NOT PUSH-START A VR6!*
> 
> Seeing one camshaft out of sync with the other is what you will get. Manual tranny's only, of course. Even with healthy chains and guides, you will jump a tooth on the cam sprockets due to no oil pressure in the hydraulic tensioner unit. Will it happen every time? Spin the wheel and find out, kids. Once done, very hard to get them sync'd again. You'll have to at least go through removing the upper timing cover.


I don't see how this makes sense. The starter turns the flywheel. Push starting through the drive train turns the flywheel. No difference. Oil pressure is from a mechanical pump so either way its the same. Can you please clarify this?


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## holywar0902 (Aug 9, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> This :thumbup:
> 
> At least you got the timing cover off and are now able to _know_ what the issue is. Note: the tranny weighs around 80 lbs. She's a chunk.


Thanks, I plan on picking up a trans jack today as well as an extra safety chain. Might squeeze in a clutch kit and lightweight flywheel while I'm in there.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Gladly.

There is a _big_ difference in the amount and linearity of force as applied by the electric starter as opposed to the comparatively violent force applied when 'popping the clutch'.

The issue is that your chains are kept taught by way of a tensioner which pushes against a plastic guide to keep the slack out of the timing chains.
The tensioner is hydraulic and relies on oil pressure to apply force against the chain guide. There is no oil pressure available for this when the engine is static but there is a low-pressure spring inside the tensioner unit which provides a lesser force to help out until oil pressure builds to spec such as during cranking. Cranking with the starter is far smoother than popping the clutch and seldom, if ever, results in motor kick-back. When you try to push-start, that moment when you release the clutch can jerk the rotating assembly rather abruptly, inducing a wave of slack into the timing chain that would otherwise be controlled by your tensioner unit. It is less likely to be an issue with brand spankin' new timing parts but with any wear on the guides or chains...well, it just gets progressively easier to 'jump a tooth' as your timing stuff ages. You're far better off carrying a set of cables.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

holywar0902 said:


> Thanks, I plan on picking up a trans jack today as well as an extra safety chain. Might squeeze in a clutch kit and lightweight flywheel while I'm in there.


I think its been covered but, yeah, there is a list of things you 'may as well do' once you're that far into it. How's your crackpipe?


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## holywar0902 (Aug 9, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> I think its been covered but, yeah, there is a list of things you 'may as well do' once you're that far into it. How's your crackpipe?


Already removed lol
I purchased billet crack pipe, thermostat with housing and cover, green temp sensor, as well as the timing chain kit for upper and lower chains. A few bottles of g12 are in the garage waiting.

I plan to get a new valve cover gasket (noticed oil seeping) upper intake gaskets and what ever gasket gets removed. Clutch, flywheel kit, throw out bearing the whole 9 yards. I'm going to replace the shift rod gaskets in the manifold while I have it off. It'll be like a new vr when I'm done lol.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

OK, that makes sense. I didn't think about it being violent cause when I've push started cars I let the clutch out slowly. Good point sir.

Lightened flywheel is a great choice. Makes the car more rev happy and fun to drive. Stalls a bit easier when starting off from stopped tho. But that's easy to get used to.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> OK, that makes sense. I didn't think about it being violent cause when I've push started cars I let the clutch out slowly. Good point sir.
> 
> Lightened flywheel is a great choice. Makes the car more rev happy and fun to drive. Stalls a bit easier when starting off from stopped tho. But that's easy to get used to.


You know, not every push-start is successful and when the engine does* not* fire up, it lurches back pretty hard and without proper tension to the chains...

Have you done the LW flywheel on a VR? How light did you go? My car needs some more 'fun factor' since I sold the turbo so I was thinking about a flywheel and mild cams.


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

Ditto...it's a song and dance anytime you play with vr timing and the chains are never 100% tight which even I still am looking for a way to remedy without buying the new part out to adjust slack without moving timing


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

vr6pilot said:


> Have you done the LW flywheel on a VR? How light did you go? My car needs some more 'fun factor' since I sold the turbo so I was thinking about a flywheel and mild cams.


Yep. I don't know exactly how much they took off my flywheel unfortunately. I'd say prob 3-4 lbs. I deff recommend it.


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

I went with 11lbs total if I remember correct. And it made a good difference. Nothing remarkable to noticable. Deff has a lighter engagement if that makes sence. You may get some noise from it though. I have a midly built motor and 268 shrick cams as well


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## holywar0902 (Aug 9, 2009)

So I have a new concern. I accidentally left the upper tensioner bolt out while I set the crank to tdc (it was previously set but moved when I removed the pressure plate and flywheel)

So now my cams are out of wack. Crank is at tdc. What's the best sure fire way to get my cams lined up? Remove the head? Should I rotate the cams? Main problem I see with rotating the cam is they will hit a piston eventually. Any advice? Thanks


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## mkIVgladiator (Mar 6, 2013)

*2.8l 12V vr6 timing*

ummm you take the covers off and look w/ your eyes see if slack is all the way on the tensioners and marks add up.... i replaced my mk4 2.8l 12v jetta piston rings, crankshaft and crank rod&main bearings + thrust washers ..... so your little timing job is considerably less labor intensive but here's a usefully write up b/c to avoid valve cover leaks BECAUSE vw engineers failed at spacing out the valve cover gasket miserably but anyways do this below or go through the same problems this guy who did the write up probably has gone through.

yes ... this below is a copied forum from a 5 year old thread anyways here it is.....
I understand what you guys are going through, but you don't understand why the valve cover gasket is leaking in the first place, if you look carefully at the bolts, these vw engineers decided to put flat seats at the end of the valve cover bolt in the mk4 jetta .....these pictures should allow better visual understanding .... i had to use a grinder cutting wheel to take the seats off b/c i decided to go with cork/rubber composite material/black oil resistant RTV, as i did use the same combo for the oil pan.... b/c rtv alone won't hold up against oil,heat and air pressure.

as you see in the picture below that seat.... yeah thats no good, your gonna want to cut that tip off carefully not to destroy the bolt's threads.... actually easy once you get close from grinding ... to prevent damage to the thread... just break the tip off w/ plyers ... breaks right off once you grinded enough.

now i use lock washers because they fit tightly around the valve cover bolt, yes... you need washers for this piece of crap valve cover.... total of 8 the other two valve cover bolts are studs closest to the filler cap.................................. i found lock washers to be thick enough to space out the bottom of the bolt. This car is easy to work on but requires engineering and design modifications... if you can find a washer that can go around the seat of the valve cover bolt ... more power to you but i wasn;t going to chance it since i was using a significantly lower profile gasket.


image ru
now for here your gonna want 2 grind the half round gasket flat if your using the cork/rubber composite material but completely unecessary if you just buy a gasket but regardless if you buy a new gasket you will still have to follow steps above... i guarantee it!

i use cork b/c i'm hip, i still used rtv to stick the gasket so when i removed the bolts the gasket did not retract


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## mkIVgladiator (Mar 6, 2013)

*2.8l 12V vr6 timing*

holywar 0902 .... if you want to turn the cams and don't want to hit your valves when turning the crank how about you loosen the camshaft nuts and loosen the spark plugs so you can freely spin the crank.... being carefull not to drop any camp nuts into the oil passages... youll want a nice magenet assisting you while you turn the nuts off.... then you can spin the crank freely without your fear that a valve might touch... i've spun a crank over using two crescent wrenches but takes way to long by yourself.... you'll need another person to slowely spin the crank by hand while you move the crescent wrenches but you can avoid all of that by just loosening the cams off the cam lobes.


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## 677480 (Apr 1, 2012)

mkIVgladiator said:


> ummm you take the covers off and look w/ your eyes see if slack is all the way on the tensioners and marks add up.... i replaced my mk4 2.8l 12v jetta piston rings, crankshaft and crank rod&main bearings + thrust washers ..... so your little timing job is considerably less labor intensive but here's a usefully write up b/c to avoid valve cover leaks BECAUSE vw engineers failed at spacing out the valve cover gasket miserably but anyways do this below or go through the same problems this guy who did the write up probably has gone through.
> 
> yes ... this below is a copied forum from a 5 year old thread anyways here it is.....
> I understand what you guys are going through, but you don't understand why the valve cover gasket is leaking in the first place, if you look carefully at the bolts, these vw engineers decided to put flat seats at the end of the valve cover bolt in the mk4 jetta .....these pictures should allow better visual understanding .... i had to use a grinder cutting wheel to take the seats off b/c i decided to go with cork/rubber composite material/black oil resistant RTV, as i did use the same combo for the oil pan.... b/c rtv alone won't hold up against oil,heat and air pressure.
> ...


You should help me do a total re uild on my block buddy. I could use the bottom end knowledge 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


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## YONI RED (Sep 19, 2008)

:thumbup:


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## mike12 (Aug 29, 2015)

*timing marks*

when the notch on dampner and line on front cover is lined up the grounded tooth on rear sprocket is not aligned. what is causing this please?


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

then either the crank pulley is not the same 1 originally installed or the front cover housing is not the original 1.

either way, go by the ground tooth on the crank sprocket as that is the 100% correct way to time the bottom end at TDC. Once you do that, remark the crank pulley using a dremel tool such that it aligns with the mark on the front cover.

regarding the issue posted above (how to realign top end with chains installed) :

really the only way to do this is to remove the upper timing cover, then remove the cams. On a bench, remove 1 of the cam sprockets. Set the cams back in place using the alignment plate on the passenger end to ensure both are at TDC. reinstall the cam bearings. Wrap chain such that slack is on the tensioner bolt side and tight on the rail side. reinstall the cam sprocket previously removed and then reinstall the upper cover (using sealant ofcourse).

its very hard if not impossible to rotate the cams with the chain installed and the upper cover installed (even with tensioner bolt removed). There just isnt much slack. Much easier to just remove upper timing cover and the cam sprocket. 

been there done this waaay too many times. :banghead:


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## mike12 (Aug 29, 2015)

*thanks eskimo87 you were very helpful*



VgRt6 said:


> *INSTALLING NEW TIMING CHAIN PARTS*
> 29. Clean ALL of the mating surfaces of the timing chain covers, head, block and headgasket of oil and silicone gasket material. Examples of these areas are indicated by the red shading in the picture below. On a MKIV 12v VR6, there are two (2) 3mm holes in the headgasket right next to the head/block (yellow arrows in picture below). Remove any gasket material that is in these holes. Also be sure to clean out any oil from the central upper guide rail bolt hole (green arrow in picture below). Locking compound is used on this bolt to ensure that it does not back out and catch on the upper timing chain and it is critical that the bolt hole be clean and dry. Finally, the blue arrow in the picture below points to the oil feed hole for the upper tensioner bolt. Make sure that this hole is not clogged/blocked with gasket material (it shouldn't be, but check anyway)!
> 
> 
> ...


:wave::wave::wave::wave::wave::wave:


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## mike12 (Aug 29, 2015)

*eskimo87*

thanks for the info on my way to thegarage now to try setting markd with just the grounded tooth :wave::wave::wave:


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## VWVR6_mk3 (Oct 21, 2015)

*suggestions*

first of all great demonstration helps out a lot. but do you recommend replacing the chains when doing this whole job?


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## lazyace (Apr 16, 2006)

VWVR6_mk3 said:


> first of all great demonstration helps out a lot. but do you recommend replacing the chains when doing this whole job?


Without a doubt!


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## Smoky_Llama (Nov 22, 2005)

First off, what an awesome diy, the photos and text are some of the best I've seen. Got a used AAA for my MK1 project, it's been converted to OBD2 by the po, dual row upper chain, non spring tensioner, and two piece tensioning rail. Took the covers off and found the upper guide rail was cracked, no big deal, planned on doing the chains regardless. My question is this: how off can the cams be after 4 full rotations of the crank? The upper cover is on, the new style spring loaded tensioner is installed all the way, the ground tooth, the crank pulley, and the intermediate sprocket all line up fine, but the cams seem a touch off as seen in the pictures. I had the head off beforehand, no bent valves or anything, and the crank has been at TDC since I removed the old chains. 

Any ideas? I've been doing car stuff for years, but this is my first time messing with engines to this degree, it might not be a big deal, but id hate to finish this swap and hear a horrible clunk upon the first startup, plus I like warm fuzzies.


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## MillCreekGinster (May 10, 2004)

Hi all, debating w myself think I might need to attempt a chain job. Scary stuff for me and cant afford a shop to do the chains on $3k car. Has anyone ever heard this click noise before? Ive replaced the upper tension bolt 2x. Im sure it was bled and torqued it to22lbs. The click is only audible when engine is fully warmed up. Chains recently done 5k miles ago. Im thinking broken upper guide but after pulling the upper timecase the guide was intact and i didnt see anything broken when looking down in there. runs great, no cel.

Any advice or ideas is incredibly appreciated!

http://youtu.be/8NsGZYWlYzk


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## VR6JH (Jan 3, 2016)

Smoky_Llama said:


> First off, what an awesome diy, the photos and text are some of the best I've seen. Got a used AAA for my MK1 project, it's been converted to OBD2 by the po, dual row upper chain, non spring tensioner, and two piece tensioning rail. Took the covers off and found the upper guide rail was cracked, no big deal, planned on doing the chains regardless. My question is this: how off can the cams be after 4 full rotations of the crank? The upper cover is on, the new style spring loaded tensioner is installed all the way, the ground tooth, the crank pulley, and the intermediate sprocket all line up fine, but the cams seem a touch off as seen in the pictures. I had the head off beforehand, no bent valves or anything, and the crank has been at TDC since I removed the old chains.
> 
> Any ideas? I've been doing car stuff for years, but this is my first time messing with engines to this degree, it might not be a big deal, but id hate to finish this swap and hear a horrible clunk upon the first startup, plus I like warm fuzzies.


What did you ever come up with on this? I'm in the middle of doing chains and have been using this DIY. Were you a half tooth off?


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## killswitch0102 (Mar 13, 2016)

Great DIY!! I'm currently build a AAA VR6 that had sat for years after the previous owner bored it over and fitted new pistons. It also has a aftermarket cam which is unknown at this point. When I took the crank to TDC I found that only one of the camshafts lined up correctly to ensure that they wouldn't move during the change. Could this be because of the aftermarket cams different timing ? Any help would be appreciated to move forward









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Hazeel (Apr 27, 2015)

Smoky_Llama said:


> First off, what an awesome diy, the photos and text are some of the best I've seen. Got a used AAA for my MK1 project, it's been converted to OBD2 by the po, dual row upper chain, non spring tensioner, and two piece tensioning rail. Took the covers off and found the upper guide rail was cracked, no big deal, planned on doing the chains regardless. My question is this: how off can the cams be after 4 full rotations of the crank? The upper cover is on, the new style spring loaded tensioner is installed all the way, the ground tooth, the crank pulley, and the intermediate sprocket all line up fine, but the cams seem a touch off as seen in the pictures. I had the head off beforehand, no bent valves or anything, and the crank has been at TDC since I removed the old chains.
> 
> Any ideas? I've been doing car stuff for years, but this is my first time messing with engines to this degree, it might not be a big deal, but id hate to finish this swap and hear a horrible clunk upon the first startup, plus I like warm fuzzies.


I have the same "problem". Is this a big deal ? 
Also a question; Does is really matter how the midle shaft sits ? the one that connects both chains. 
Looks like i did not line up that one on 6 or 12, it's just randomly in. The VR6 is a total rebuild zo everything has been changed. 
It looks to me that it does nog really matter how the midle shaft sits or am I wrong ?


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## Rick S (Aug 5, 2016)

*Awesome thread folks*

I have been reading your site and this thread for I just bought a 2001 vr6 jetta and had the can rattle noise up top. It was runniing rough and I changed plugs then it run worse so I thought plug wires. One barely stayed on a plug and the left front was arching out when it was running. While I am waiting for the wires I took it for a drive yesterday and heard a snap/pop and the check engine light came on and it has a total dead cylinder now, and no power4. PO341 Cam position sensor circuit. I read all I could and decided to tear it apart. Well someone was in here before, all the rtv everywhere. but what I found didn't look that bad, to me anyway. I checked the timing with the 1/8 AL plate in the ends of the cams with TDC at the bottom, and everything was spot on hmmmm. Anyway here is the upper chain guide very minimal wear and the right white tensioner guide no wear at all. I am stumped. Could the upper tension bolt also be bad? When I took it out there wasn't much oil in the bolt at all. Oil came out of the oil hole when I pulled the cover. 

Anyway here is the upper guide. It does have half of the lower bolt boss gone. Would these make this run as bad as it is. And will the new plug wires help when I get er back together? Thank you very much for your time and great site!!!!!!!!!!!


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

Is this the classic half a tooth off timing chain issue? I did the chains, mk4 head gasket and had the head decked. I think the car is slightly down on power and the exhaust has lost its burble sound when I let off the gas. It also doesn't hold idle when I let off the gas and stalls out. Pics:


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## nissan sellout (Apr 9, 2006)

Such a great tutorial and very well written. I used it to replace my timing chains 3 years ago. Heres a pic of the tensioner rail that i removed. You can see its splitting apart in like the one the OP was replacing. Mine had also split at the middle bolt hole and was actually cracked completely in half. Im glad i got to it when i did.


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## Eric D (Feb 16, 1999)

mkIVgladiator said:


> now i use lock washers because they fit tightly around the valve cover bolt, yes... you need washers for this piece of crap valve cover.... total of 8 the other two valve cover bolts are studs closest to the filler cap.................................. i found lock washers to be thick enough to space out the bottom of the bolt. This car is easy to work on but requires engineering and design modifications... if you can find a washer that can go around the seat of the valve cover bolt ... more power to you but i wasn;t going to chance it since i was using a significantly lower profile gasket.
> 
> 
> image ru
> ...


Cork is horrible for a VC gasket. They shrink and warp and tear and leak and suck.

Pretty sure this was a descision based on the that guys financial situation. Look at the big pic for the clues.
Debris in the VC, in the head, leaking hose coupler, busted and capped coolant flange, epoxied rad flange, busted brake booster hose.
His other budget fix, which he had to redo correctly.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-problem-car-wont-start-now-P1176-P1198-P0140

*
*
Rubber gaskets are widely available from dedicated VW suppliers locally and online.
No need to use cork which was never meant to be used on your VR6, let along a plastic valve cover that requires a molded rubber valve cover gasket.
There are 2 versions of rubber valve cover gaskets, one for an aluminum valve cover (flat) like the early OBD1 cars, and the molder rubber valve cover gasket for late OBD1 and OBD 2 cars.

Flat early OBD1 for use with aluminum valve cover.










AAA early aluminum. 











Molded type, late OBD1 and OBD2 for plastic valve cover.










AFP shown, AAA similar. 









Look how crappy his work came out. :facepalm:


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## dauwgfan1 (May 31, 2018)

*Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12 v vr6*

Can this procedure be used to replace the timing chains, etc In the 2.8l 24v vr6 engine in my 2003 Eurovan?


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

dauwgfan1 said:


> Can this procedure be used to replace the timing chains, etc In the 2.8l 24v vr6 engine in my 2003 Eurovan?


Here is a video I used to verify the timing on my 24V 3.6 VR6 you might find it help. https://youtu.be/drMhFMvos1s


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## sirbagin (Jul 29, 2018)

*Part number search*

I have an issue a pivot pin. It broke and I need to find a replacement. :banghead: Can any of you guys help me finding a correct part number? Its part marked with number 9 on diagram M15-0062.
Thank you


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## CRWalker (Aug 6, 2016)

sirbagin said:


> I have an issue a pivot pin. It broke and I need to find a replacement. <img src="http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Banghead" class="inlineimg" /> Can any of you guys help me finding a correct part number? Its part marked with number 9 on diagram M15-0062.
> Thank you


For the 24v BDF: 066109511D.


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## Ownmech (Jan 8, 2020)

Hi

Thank you for this post that you put up back then. Some of us got the cars late but the info is very useful. I am wondering what happened to the pictures though?


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## NoudVr6 (Aug 18, 2021)

NS does someone have the photo´s? i cant see them anymore....


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