# Noisy Fuel Pump: Does your fuel pump sound like this?



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

So my fuel pump recently started making a loud "clacking" sound when the engine is idling. It can be heard from inside the vehicle with the windows up and hood closed. You can actually feel the "clacking" when your hand is covering the pump. Attached is a Quicktime video that I took with my phone:
http://home.comcast.net/~ryanmancuso/fuelpump.mov
Just wondering if any of you have experienced this and if it is something I should be concerned with.







And just let me state that the source of the fuel pump, internal parts, or tuner is irrelevant to my question or this thread.


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## JaxACR (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: Noisy Fuel Pump: Does your fuel pump sound like this? (ruso)*

You should pull that mug ASAP and check out the lobe and follower. I'll bet $5 that the follower is completely punched through.


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: Noisy Fuel Pump: Does your fuel pump sound like this? (JaxACR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JaxACR* »_You should pull that mug ASAP and check out the lobe and follower. I'll bet $5 that the follower is completely punched through.

Actually its about a $45 follower...
And yes, it sounds like your follower has failed... and possibly eaten your camshaft too.
DIYs:
http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/6
http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/15


_Modified by 2pt0tee at 7:08 PM 5-27-2008_


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## Hkysk8r07 (Jul 9, 2005)

*FV-QR*

does your warranty still exist? get that fixed for free.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Hkysk8r07)*

If this was the case, wouln't any of these senarios be followed by some type of rail pressure DTC?


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

It's amazing that these things can still run with the damage that they have, but they still do. Metal goes everywhere in the engine when these fail, so don't wait till you get a light, the noise is bad enough to warrant inspection/ repair at the dealer.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (enginerd)*

*Update:*
Well, just talked to my buddy... 
The cam follower is gone! It's just a ring... the end of the cap must have been pulverized. The tip of the fuel pump is... yep, you guessed it... gone! The spring on the end of the pump had been riding on the cam lobe for God knows how long... well, considering I installed this pump less than 5,000 miles ago.








So, looks like we need a new cam, follower, and fuel pump. Can anyone confirm that the updated cam and follower will last more than 12,000 miles?










_Modified by ruso at 2:22 PM 5-29-2008_


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

More details please. Why did you change the pump originally? Only 5k miles on this pump and follower?


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_More details please. Why did you change the pump originally? Only 5k miles on this pump and follower?
















Hey Mike! Let's just say that the pump which was installed is of the higher output variety.







We (myself and an authorized dealer of the product and an authorized VW technician) inspected the existing follower and cam lobe upon installation of the pump and they appeard to be fine.
Fast forward to today (according to the date of installation which was about 30 days after my last oil change)... I'd say it's more like 4k miles on the pump itself but closer to 12,500 miles on the follower and cam... for the car only has about 12,500 miles on it.









_Modified by ruso at 3:25 PM 5-28-2008_


_Modified by ruso at 8:23 PM 5-28-2008_


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

Wow... looks familiar...
FWIW, and you can PM me if you want, which pump was that? I have quite a bit of experience in this area since the beginning of this year...









Cam replacement parts/tools list (with list prices):
5 x 06D109281D countersunk multi-point socket head bolt
$2.78 x 5 = $13.90
1 x 06F109101B intake camshaft
$417.10
1 x 038103085C intake shaft seal (timing belt side)
$8.83
1 x 06B103113C locking cover 26mm (timing belt side)
$3.48
1 x D154103A1 100g tube of really expensive sealant
$97.40
1 x 06F103483D valve cover gasket
$15.48
1 x 06D109309C cam follower for fuel pump
$59.85
1 x 06D103121B cam adjuster cover gasket
$13.50
Cam counterhold tool
$43 from metalnerd
Cam gear puller
$150 from baumtools
Cam seal installer
$50 from baumtools
While you're in there... might consider a t-belt job too (depending on your mileage)... I can give you parts list for that too if you want.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_It's amazing that these things can still run with the damage that they have, but they still do. Metal goes everywhere in the engine when these fail, so don't wait till you get a light, the noise is bad enough to warrant inspection/ repair at the dealer. 

The oil was just changed yesterday but we plan on checking the compression and will probably change the oil again after everything's replaced.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (2pt0tee)*

ruso what pump did you have in their?


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ruso what pump did you have in their?

x2


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Guys, sorry but as I stated at the beginning of this thread, I will not disclose the manufacturer of the fuel pump involved, out of respect to the manufacturer.


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_Guys, sorry but as I stated at the beginning of this thread, I will not disclose the manufacturer of the fuel pump involved, out of respect to the manufacturer.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif good deal man...wish you the best of luck


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_Guys, sorry but as I stated at the beginning of this thread, I will not disclose the manufacturer of the fuel pump involved, out of respect to the manufacturer.

That's fine. I was just curious as to whether it was stock or aftermarket. We have seen multiple failures across the board.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (tyrolkid)*

regardless to whos pump was in their, it looks just like the cars i see come in 100% stock, usually the cam wears and roughins up and eats the backside of the cam follower and works it's way to the pump..no way to prove it at this point but when you see parts that are slowly failing thats what it seems like to me


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_That's fine. I was just curious as to whether it was stock or aftermarket. We have seen multiple failures across the board. 

It's aftermarket. And FWIW, my tech buddy informed me that I have the latest cam. Can I get a big WTF?


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

can you get a picture of the cam (fuel pump lobe especially)?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
It's aftermarket. And FWIW, my tech buddy informed me that I have the latest cam. Can I get a big WTF?


Ruso were you getting ANY signs of failure prior?? like fuel cut ? CEL? anything? that would indicate something is going on ??? Wondering if the follower just failed and nothing to do with the pump or the cam . Just thinking out loud here LOL. Bob.G


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
It's aftermarket. And FWIW, my tech buddy informed me that I have the latest cam. Can I get a big WTF?


Ruso, I supposedly have the latest cam and follower in my A4 2.0T with a stock pump and I am almost to this point now. I have pulled my pump a few times to inspect it and the follower, but I can't see the end of the cam in my longitudinal layout. No Audi dealer wants to even consider replacing the part until I throw a DTC, or it completely fails. I have showed them the parts, and they say it is fine, there is no hole in it yet!?!?
For reference I have 45k miles with the stock pump and 20k miles with a flash, and mine has not completely failed yet.
I used to go to the same tech that you use, man I wish he did Audi service now :-(


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_If this was the case, wouln't any of these senarios be followed by some type of rail pressure DTC?









This was my rationalization as to why I haven't gotten a DTC yet, and may apply to your situation too:
The rail pressure DTC is caused by severe damage to the cam lobe. If the follower goes well before the cam lobe is destroyed the DTC won't show up until after the fuel pump digs into the cam.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (JEttaVR66Spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_This was my rationalization as to why I haven't gotten a DTC yet, and may apply to your situation too:
The rail pressure DTC is caused by severe damage to the cam lobe. If the follower goes well before the cam lobe is destroyed the DTC won't show up until after the fuel pump digs into the cam.

Well, according to Walt, my cam is ****ed... the retainer on the end of the pump is gone and the piston is milled down to an angle. The piston and spring were basically eating away at the cam and it now has a nice deep groove ground into it.


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_Well, according to Walt, my cam is ****ed... the retainer on the end of the pump is gone and the piston is milled down to an angle. The piston and spring were basically eating away at the cam and it now has a nice deep groove ground into it.


Been there


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (2pt0tee)*

So is it safe to say that the this problem has been resolved by VW? I mean, if i have the newer cam, then technically this problem shouldn't have ever occurred right? I don't get it.


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## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (JEttaVR66Spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_
This was my rationalization as to why I haven't gotten a DTC yet, and may apply to your situation too:
The rail pressure DTC is caused by severe damage to the cam lobe. If the follower goes well before the cam lobe is destroyed the DTC won't show up until after the fuel pump digs into the cam.


Whatever happened to your car when you went out to, Indy was it? 
ruso - JIABANO


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## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_can you get a picture of the cam (fuel pump lobe especially)?


Probably friday.


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (veedubtek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubtek* »_

Whatever happened to your car when you went out to, Indy was it? 


I moved to Columbus, IN; 45 min south of Indianapolis.
The Jetta got traded for my A4 at the GM dealer on 16th St. in Wheeling. I tried to buy the Fahrenheit GTI at the dealer, but they were marking it up from MSRP. I wasn't about to pay $2k over MSRP for a GTI, not matter how unique it was.
I have to admit, if this cam/follower issue is my only problem, this A4 will still be less trouble than the Jetta.








I feel bad for the person who bought the Jetta. I hope they read the CarFax thoroughly.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (JEttaVR66Spd)*

*Update:*
Fuel pump is packed up and ready to ship out to the manufacturer for inspection and possibly a rebuild.


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

To someone who is technically inclined but not an engine expert, is there something we can do to check that this is not happening to our cars prior to it failing. I only have about 10k on my warranty left and I want to make sure that this does not happen to me at mile 40,001. 
I saw the DIY to check if you have the new or old cams. IS that the only sign? How can i check if the follower is going bad?


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

I am concerned that VW/Audi may not offer a better solution than what we have now. I personally don't like metal shavings in my engine, even if the filter does catch most of them.
I also think it is a load of BS that the dealer will charge you for labor if you ask to have the follower inspected, and it doesn't need replaced yet. I am trying to be cautious and protect my engine, and they see it as an opportunity to make money! They should be offering free Cam Follower replacement to anyone who walks in the door, no matter the condition of your piece.
This is getting out of hand if you ask me. I am willing to offer a hand to anyone that is interested in inspecting the follower on their 2.0T VW or Audi. I am in Columbus, IN, about 1 hour from Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Louisville, and Bloomington. IM me for contact info.


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_
This is getting out of hand if you ask me. I am willing to offer a hand to anyone that is interested in inspecting the follower on their 2.0T VW or Audi. I am in Columbus, IN, about 1 hour from Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Louisville, and Bloomington. IM me for contact info.

Wish I lived near you because I am concerned about this problem but I don't think i have the tools or know-how to inspect myself.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_How can i check if the follower is going bad?

Pull the fuel pump.


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (syntrix)*

DIYs:
http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/6
http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/15

Both are pretty easy to perform. If you have an 07, the pump removal is easier since you don't have the banjo bolt to remove... and the rubber line flexes, so no need to remove that just to inspect your follower.


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Pull the fuel pump. 

and look for what? Shavings or damage to the follower that comes off of the fuel pump?


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (aeproberts21)*

http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/6
http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/15
Damn @##$ banjo bolt!!!


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_
Wish I lived near you because I am concerned about this problem but I don't think i have the tools or know-how to inspect myself. 

The process is quite simple, if you take your time it can be done in an afternoon.
I am going to replace my follower next week.  I will try to make another guide to accompany the ones that already exist. I have an A4 Quattro, so my layout is a bit different, but the idea is the same.
Here is an existing Cam Follower Replacement Guide:
http://www.golfmkv.net/blog/archives/6


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_
and look for what? Shavings or damage to the follower that comes off of the fuel pump?

You are looking for a deformed follower or worn cam lobe. Metal shavings will be mostly washed away by the flow of oil, you can find them in your filter and oil pan.
The follower wears thin or is completely punched through buy the piston of the pump. The follower rides on the surface of the cam at the tip of the pump. It is not attached to the pump, after you pull the pump it can be lifted out of the opening using your finger. Care must be taken to keep everything clean, so when you reassemble the parts you don't let any dirt in to accelerate the wear.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_
and look for what? Shavings or damage to the follower that comes off of the fuel pump?


http://www.goapr.com/images/15...b.pdf


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_Damn @##$ banjo bolt!!!









No kidding man! That thing was the biggest PITA!!!


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
No kidding man! That thing was the biggest PITA!!!

ya gotta know the trick, then it's not such a PITA


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

To keep spirits high, I figured it was time for me to make a new one...


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

LOL, love it!


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

LOL. That's awesome ruso...glad to see you have a good sense of humor about it man! (Not sure if I would, but







)


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_LOL. That's awesome ruso...glad to see you have a good sense of humor about it man! (Not sure if I would, but







) 

I've been where he is.... if you don't laugh, you'll end up killing someone, lol
Its frustrating, but you'll get it all worked out. Then you'll be checking your follower every 5k miles








Hey, if you need some of that expensive sealant... I still have a tube...


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

What are the chances the cam and follower are almost completely dry, lacking any oil coating, upon a cold startup or any time during operation? That could really lead to increased wear. Someone should develop an oil squirting system that provides a constant layer of oil onto the follower and cam so there is almost no contact between the two. The follower should float over a thin coat of oil between the follower and cam. IIRC the mazda setup is facing down in oil the entire time, which may be why they dont seem to have problems. How are is the GM 2.0T GDI setup? Do they have problems? Also, when I was at APR a while back I checked out the follower on their test system, which has seen plenty of redline testing over and over and over for over a year. The follower looked brand spanking new and was the same one from day one. Why? It was sitting in a giant pool of oil. I'm pretty sure that helps tremendously.


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_What are the chances the cam and follower are almost completely dry, lacking any oil coating, upon a cold startup or any time during operation? That could really lead to increased wear. Someone should develop an oil squirting system that provides a constant layer of oil onto the follower and cam so there is almost no contact between the two. The follower should float over a thin coat of oil between the follower and cam. IIRC the mazda setup is facing down in oil the entire time, which may be why they dont seem to have problems. How are is the GM 2.0T GDI setup? Do they have problems? Also, when I was at APR a while back I checked out the follower on their test system, which has seen plenty of redline testing over and over and over for over a year. The follower looked brand spanking new and was the same one from day one. Why? It was sitting in a giant pool of oil. I'm pretty sure that helps tremendously. 


How was APRs in a giant pool of oil??? The cam adjuster cover has drain passages back into the head at the bottom of it









Now experts can correct me if I'm wrong... but, it looks like the vac pump actually slings oil onto the follower. When I had mine all apart, and twisted the vac pump by hand, it shot oil all over the place in a nice stream.

But your point about cold starts could be true... it may have to do with the quality/type of oil being used and its ability to stick to the surfaces after the car is shut off.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_How was APRs in a giant pool of oil??? The cam adjuster cover has drain passages back into the head at the bottom of it







.

I think Arin was referring to the "machine."
















Although it's hard to see any kind of pool of oil in the picture.


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## jeff2.0t (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: (ruso)*

Those aftermarket FP are *****... I Still dont understand why people gamble with their engine.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (jeff2.0t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jeff2.0t* »_Those aftermarket FP are *****... I Still dont understand why people gamble with their engine.

Wow, what a way to contribute to the thread?


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (jeff2.0t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jeff2.0t* »_Those aftermarket FP are *****... I Still dont understand why people gamble with their engine.

are you nuts







it's no different from the OEM pump except for the fact it has a larger bore to flow more fuel...most failures are not due to the pump they are do to the camshaft and cam follower wearing


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_I think Arin was referring to the "machine."








Although it's hard to see any kind of pool of oil in the picture.


Ahhh, that'd make more sense


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
I think Arin was referring to the "machine."
















Although it's hard to see any kind of pool of oil in the picture.

So going down a quart and a half is bad ?


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

Ruso, did you ever find the spring retaining pieces of the pump? Or were they completely worn away?
What about the condition of the engine? Any ill effects found yet?


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*

The engine appears to be fine. It looks like VW isolated that particular cam lobe and adjacent parts so that if they did fail, they wouldn't make it into the rest of the motor. Fine metal particals, yes, but not the big stuff.
Everything was safe asleep in the vaccum pump area. I'm thinking the rest just wore down into dust.
But man do I have some good carnage shots!







I'll post them this evening... and trust me, you guys will be shocked! It isn't anything I have personally seen so far on this forum... and it isn't pretty whatsoever.










_Modified by ruso at 3:07 PM 5-30-2008_


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_So going down a quart and a half is bad ?






























Honestly, I'd love to think that was the case but I'm not yet convinced. I don't think the oil light will even come on until your about 3qts low.


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
But man do I have some good carnage shots!







I'll post them this evening... 

Do you have pictures of how oil is delivered to that part of the engine? I am interested if this can be improved in any way. Hydrodynamic bearings don't usually fail unless you take away the hydro part.
I am thinking we can make a Fuel Pump spacer with an oil jet and a redesigned follower, or follower insert.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_Do you have pictures of how oil is delivered to that part of the engine? I am interested if this can be improved in any way. Hydrodynamic bearings don't usually fail unless you take away the hydro part.

I didn't get any pictures and I think Walt may already be in the process of reassembling it. I'm sure he can describe that area a little more then me. I looked at the pump for a second where it connects to the cam but didn't see anything like that.

_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_I am thinking *we* can make a Fuel Pump spacer with an oil jet and a redesigned follower, or follower insert.

You go ahead and start working on that BJ. I'll sit back and watch.


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## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (ruso)*

See my previous post and this image:








As the vac pump turns, oil shoots out of this hole.


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
You go ahead and start working on that...


I have access to some resources at work that will allow me to make a simple design and get a few pieces made. A couple of one off pieces for testing shouldn't be too hard to get.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*

I dunno... after you see the pictures that I post tonight, your opinion on why this happened may change.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_
I have access to some resources at work that will allow me to make a simple design and get a few pieces made. A couple of one off pieces for testing shouldn't be too hard to get.

I talked with Arin about this some time ago after he described the APR test setup to me. It sounds great but my main concern is the ability of oil to drain from that end cover. I'm wondering what kind of flow it can handle... I like this idea, though. Until DH mentioned the vac pump as an oiler I had thought the paddles were simply there to drive the vac pump off of the intake cam. I'll have to take a look at that.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*FV-QR*

JIABANO FTW!!!
I really dodged a bullet getting rid of my car...SO glad I did (not to imply I'm happy to see failures...its sad and I sympathize, but just reaffirms my decision to jump ship.)
My follower after only about 4k-5k on the APR pump looked REALLY thin. I think the lesson here is not to buy any fuel pump until someone comes up with a solid solution.


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_JIABANO FTW!!!
I really dodged a bullet getting rid of my car...SO glad I did (not to imply I'm happy to see failures...its sad and I sympathize, but just reaffirms my decision to jump ship.)
My follower after only about 4k-5k on the APR pump looked REALLY thin. I think the lesson here is not to buy any fuel pump until someone comes up with a solid solution.

Yeah, but now you drive an Element....


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## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_JIABANO FTW!!!
I really dodged a bullet getting rid of my car...SO glad I did (not to imply I'm happy to see failures...its sad and I sympathize, but just reaffirms my decision to jump ship.)
My follower after only about 4k-5k on the APR pump looked REALLY thin. I think the lesson here is not to buy any fuel pump until someone comes up with a solid solution.


meh...I was kinda worried after tearing his down and checkin it all out..but as soon as I finished it up today we pulled majid's pump off to inspect his follower (117K miles, 50K? on apr pump) and it was visibly worn, but far from "OMGWTFLOLZJIABANO" like ruso's was. 14K on mine now, and I'll probably tear the pump off next week sometime for ****s and grins, but I don't expect to see anything abnormal honestly, and I track mine.
If nothing else comes from this, I'm fairly certain I can replace the intake cam in about 2 hours flat now







and honestly, I'd rather replace my cam every oil change than drive an element


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (NoRegrets78)*

*Update:*
As promised, here are some pics I took this afternoon of the carnage. I honestly don't know what to think about the whole thing, and by the end of this post you will probably be as stumped as I am. The first four pictures are from my car which had roughly *4,000 miles on the pump, and about 12,500 on the follower and cam.*
*Notice the "u" shaped recess worn into the peak of the lobe. The recess is roughly the same size of what was left of the pump's piston:*








*It's hard to see from the picture, but there was barely any wear from the piston tip of the pump:*








*Here you can see deep gashes in the face of the follower:*








*What's left of the pump's spring retainer:*








The last two pictures are from my buddy's car. Other than the cat-back exhaust, and the fact that his car is a 2006 with over 117,000 miles on it, our setups are essentially the same. He has been running the fuel pump for an estimated *15-20,000 miles and has over 50,000 miles on his follower and cam.* We checked out his cam, follower, and pump this evening to see how it compared.
*The coating is just about completely gone, yet with over 4 times the milage on his compared to mine, not even nearly as bad:*








*Tip of his pump. I'd show a picture of mine to compare but 1/4 of the piston on mine is completely worn down:*








Well, the pictures speak for themselves. I now have a brand new cam and follower installed in the car, as well as the original stock pump. It now purrs like a kitten although I've yet to drive it because another tech accidentally locked the programming cable in their toolbox and won't be able to retrieve it until Monday. I wasn't entirely comfortable driving with the stock pump on the pump-related software, so it's currently still sitting in the bay.
Talk amongst yourselves, but let's all be adults here and discuss this with healthy criticism without any bashing or anti-tuner propaganda. We are all possible candidates for this type of failure and the only way we will solve these issues for good is if we work as a team of enthusiasts.


----------



## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_We are all possible candidates for this type of failure and the only way we will solve these issues for good is if we * all JIABANO * 

fixed that for ya


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (veedubtek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubtek* »_fixed that for ya









ROFLMAO! Either that or hopefully those engineers will find away to eliminate all wear on these pars.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Looks like a follower failure.
Dave


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Looks like a follower failure.
Dave

Why do you say that? It looks like it got wedged between stuff. 
Dave, I've never asked this, but are you actually an engineer?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_








Looks like a follower failure.
Dave
 
Dave It looks that way BUT this is the effect not the cause IMO
You can clearly see in the pic the follower had little wear its thickness and its even across the top .
Another thing is note the clean straight fracture break that's NOT going throughout one of the oiling holes. looks like this happened because it was overstressed some how .
Maybe lack of lubrication? causing the spring retainer to fail?
Something bad happened here for this result.







Bob.G


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
It looks like it got wedged between stuff. 

 
That happend for sure but this prob happened after not the cause IMO







Bob.G


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_








Looks like a follower failure.

Or float... the sharp edges of the crack suggest more of a sudden impact (or a few impacts) rather than just a gradual wearing away. Once the follower blew up, the spring retainer just got ground up by the camshaft.
Plus the way it broke up the "wall" of the follower too... I've only seen one other follower failure like that... and the carnage shots looked nearly identical.

Here's another failure... "A" camshaft... notice the bottom face is dished in then worn away.

























Here's another failure... "B" camshaft... notice the bottom face of the follower is PUNCHED out. You can see the original impact mark (blue circle), the crack propagation (blue arrows), and finally where the spring retainer started contacting the follower (green arrows). This is probably another case of float.

















Both of these failures involved aftermarket HPFP, but they're both from different manufacturers... so everyone is at risk for these issues. Its not a "my manufacturer is better than yours" situation.


_Modified by 2pt0tee at 10:06 AM 5-31-2008_


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_*Here you can see deep gashes in the face of the follower:*










These gashes could be post-mortem. Once the follower blew up... that little piece was probably getting slung around the cam adjuster cover... plenty of parts in there that could gouge it like that... chain, gears, etc. Another failure I had seen, the remains of the follower damaged the inside sufaces of the follower cover because it was being slung around in there.

Here ya go, found the link: http://www.carsinspections.com....html


_Modified by 2pt0tee at 9:35 AM 5-31-2008_


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (2pt0tee)*

And here's the other failure that looks similar to ruso's... but this was AT pump...
http://www.carsinspections.com....html


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (2pt0tee)*

this looks familiar.







I cant believe that I am in decent spirits about this bull.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

If you look at the above pic Rich posted the side of the follower shows signs heat and lack of lubrication and maybe the heat is expanding the follower and its causing it to get stuck in its bore and the pump tip is " punching at it making it fail this way . Just my thoughts out loud here







Bob.G



_Modified by rracerguy717 at 10:03 AM 5-31-2008_


----------



## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_
Or float... the sharp edges of the crack suggest more of a sudden impact (or a few impacts) rather than just a gradual wearing away. Once the follower blew up, the spring retainer just got ground up by the camshaft.


The failure is most definitely from impact or multiple impacts.
Here is my thought: If the cam follower was low on lubrication, or extremely hot, it could have seized in the opening. Now being suspended away from the cam, when the next lobe comes around it impacts the follower hard. Seizures like this are usually repetitive, so it is likely that it got stuck in the same place multiple times in a row. This lead to multiple very hard impacts. This would be comparable to the worst floating follower conditions you can imagine. These impacts would account for the fractured pieces. As for the wear on the face of the piece, it could have been after the failure; also this could be the point of impact that lead to the failure. Of course after the face of the follower was gone the cam and pump fought for who got to keep their metal!


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_If you look at the above pic Rich posted the side of the follower shows signs heat and lack of lubrication and maybe the heat is expanding the follower and its causing it to get stuck in its bore and the pump tip is " punching at it making it fail this way . Just my thoughts out loud here







Bob.G

I saw that too... but this was punched UP by the cam lobe... not DOWN by the pump tip.


----------



## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

ruso, do you plan on checking the follower in 1000 miles or so, just to see how the wear is?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*

I'm going to be pulling my follower either today or tomorrow (weather depending) to check it out. I have about 7k on the new aftermarket pump, new "B" cam, and "C" follower... I'll take some pics.
My previous failure happened at just over 10k miles on the aftermarket pump.


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*

Once everything is replaced, I will be checking mine everytime I fill up at the pump














gotta laugh....


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (Runin2Rich4FSi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Runin2Rich4FSi* »_Once everything is replaced, I will be checking mine everytime I fill up at the pump















gotta laugh.... 


You better buy your own trip-sq bit and 8mm ratcheting wrench then, and just keep them in the car









I wonder if you could remove part of the hard line and convert the 06 fitting over to the 07+ style rubber hose.... hmm


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

I know.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_
I saw that too... but this was punched UP by the cam lobe... not DOWN by the pump tip.
 
Then its the cam lobe punching at it , but then when you look at those other pic's from other failure you see the failure/ fracture started at the center / tip area mmmmm . Im wondering atleast in Rich and Ruso case is there a problem with poor lubrication?? from a bad/ weak vacuum pump??? 
Maybe you should manually check this by making some type of fixture up to clamp onto vacuum pump and simulate with a [email protected] different RPM ( cam spins 1/2 the crank speed ) and see what you have . It could also be supply of oil to the vacuum pump but IMO it looks something to do with oil supply , as much as I would like to associate this failure to a particular company







.
Another thought is maybe this certain company LOL because the higher request FP is building more heat needing more lubrication ??just think out loud again







Bob.G


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (Runin2Rich4FSi)*

Print and laminate the DIY for reference


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_ruso, do you plan on checking the follower in 1000 miles or so, just to see how the wear is?

Possibly, but only to confirm that there wasn't any unseen damage from before. In all honestly, being that this is my daily driver, I can't afford to have any downtime. Hence why I am keeping the stock pump in for now.
It's pretty disappointing that my Stage III+ 1.8T was more reliable than this motor. I drove that car twice as hard for over 4 times the duration and only replaced the stock clutch. I should have kept that car.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_Then its the cam lobe punching at it , but then when you look at those other pic's from other failure you see the failure/ fracture started at the center / tip area mmmmm . Im wondering atleast in Rich and ruso case is there a problem with poor lubrication?? from a bad/ weak vacuum pump??? maybe you should manually check this by making some type of fixture up to clamp onto vacuum pump and simulate with a [email protected] different RPM ( cam spins 1/2 the crank speed ) and see what you have . It could also be supply of oil to the vacuum pump but IMO it looks something to do with oil supply , as much as I would like to associate this failure to a particular company







.
Another thought is maybe this certain company LOL because the higher request FP is building more heat needing more lubrication ??just think out loud again







Bob.G


Yes, rich's failure is the lobe eating the follower. The other pictures I posted (of one of my previous failures) it was definitely the pump punching the follower (and from everything I can tell, it was a float issue possibly related to the spring not being upgraded in that case).
If you remove the vac pump and turn by hand, it'll spray oil at you... you don't even need to turn it much. I'd say if you remove the vac pump, twist by hand, and get no oil out... then you have a problem.
All possible... I had considered the heat from added fuel pressure before.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_Then its the cam lobe punching at it , but then when you look at those other pic's from other failure you see the failure/ fracture started at the center / tip area mmmmm . Im wondering atleast in Rich and Ruso case is there a problem with poor lubrication?? from a bad/ weak vacuum pump??? 
Maybe you should manually check this by making some type of fixture up to clamp onto vacuum pump and simulate with a [email protected] different RPM ( cam spins 1/2 the crank speed ) and see what you have . It could also be supply of oil to the vacuum pump but IMO it looks something to do with oil supply

I'm not convinced it was an oil supply issue. 
And how could the lobe punch through the follower with the fuel pump's piston making contact with the inside of the follower? Unless there was a little floating going on when it happened.







Could this be just a case of over-revving? Maybe we can get APR to try the following on their "machine:"
1.) Spin their cam past redline and at the same time...
2.) Reduce the amount of lubrication present (if it is true that they submerge the follower in oil on their machine)

_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ as much as I would like to associate this failure to a particular company







. Another thought is maybe this certain company LOL because the higher request FP is building more heat needing more lubrication ??just think out loud again







Bob.G


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_Both of these failures involved aftermarket HPFP, but they're both from different manufacturers... so everyone is at risk for these issues. Its not a "my manufacturer is better than yours" situation


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
Could this be just a case of over-revving? Maybe we can get APR to try the following on their "machine:"


I can tell you atleast with my car its seen the rev limiter 7k+ many many many times and so far my follower was in perfect shape with no wear on the coating . 
I have 3500 miles since it was last inspected and prior to that had roughly 10K .







Bob.G


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (ruso)*

Ruso, how far are you reving? I dont have a 6MT so I have no idea where the rev limiter is.


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*

whats a rev limiter???


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Ruso, how far are you reving? I dont have a 6MT so I have no idea where the rev limiter is.


_Quote, originally posted by *Runin2Rich4FSi* »_whats a rev limiter???

















Let's just say it sees red line daily and I've actually had the car hit the limiter a few times not paying attention to the tach.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
Why do you say that? It looks like it got wedged between stuff. 
Dave, I've never asked this, but are you actually an engineer?

Lee, are you? I thought for sure you were still an IT kiddie...
On a more serious note, as an engineer, if the follower is not sent back to the company in question it would be worthwhile (for some of us) to send the follower pieces to a place that can analyze the expose grain as it will detail without question exactly what happened to the follower.
i.e. was it a flaw in the follower itself, heat stress due to lack of oiling (which I believe), or impacts due to float or spring design issues.


----------



## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

I don't see anything wrong with redline. I use mine multiple times a day.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_On a more serious note, as an engineer, if the follower is not sent back to the company in question it would be worthwhile (for some of us) to send the follower pieces to a place that can analyze the expose grain as it will detail without question exactly what happened to the follower.
i.e. was it a flaw in the follower itself, heat stress due to lack of oiling (which I believe), or impacts due to float or spring design issues.










IME... the aftermarket hpfp manufacturers want the bits and pieces back to do their own analysis. Same goes for VWoA when the repair is warrantied. And I'm sure they've done analysis on the part themselves, probably leading to the redesign on the CCTA.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*

Here's some pics of my follower I pulled out today. Over 7k miles since install... new "B" cam, new "C" follower and APR pump were installed at the same time. Since I had it all apart and I wanted to take pictures of this one, I put a new follower in... but I'll probably re-use this one in the future. For the time being, the new plastic container they come in works well for storage (oil to prevent any corrosion).


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_Here's some pics of my follower I pulled out today. Over 7k miles since install... new "B" cam, new "C" follower and APR pump were installed at the same time. Since I had it all apart and I wanted to take pictures of this one, I put a new follower in... but I'll probably re-use this one in the future. For the time being, the new plastic container they come in works well for storage (oil to prevent any corrosion).

It actually looks pretty good. How is your driving style? Do you drive it hard? Does the car see redline often? Any long, drawn out, heavy loads in the upper gears (staying in the 130 bar range for extended periods of time)?


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (ruso)*

would it be possible at all(just throwing ideas out there) to use an electronic cam position sensor and run the pump via the position sensor readings? or bypass the mechanical setup electronically in some way?


----------



## majid (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_would it be possible at all(just throwing ideas out there) to use an electronic cam position sensor and run the pump via the position sensor readings? or bypass the mechanical setup electronically in some way?

It would be like going from a gas powered weed eater to an electric one


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_It actually looks pretty good. How is your driving style? Do you drive it hard? Does the car see redline often? Any long, drawn out, heavy loads in the upper gears (staying in the 130 bar range for extended periods of time)?


There's only one way I drive my car... hard and fast.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_There's only one way I drive my car... hard and fast.

Did you happen to be low on oil when yours failed?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_Did you happen to be low on oil when yours failed?

Nope! I'm OCD about oil changes and checking my oil level (even have used oil analysis for most of my oil changes)...
I owned one of the notorious Mk4 2.0L AEG motors with the flipped #2 piston ring... that bitch ate over 1qt of oil in <1000miles!!! That'll teach you to keep an eye on your oil








Plus... my two failures were different. One was a seized pump... didn't damage cam or follower. The second time it was most likely float... that caused the follower bottom to get punched out... and the pump rode the cam until it side-loaded and seized.
Rich's car is the other follower (the concave one)... the one that looks like it has burnt oil on the sides... but we had recently changed his oil, so I doubt oil level was an issue.


_Modified by 2pt0tee at 3:35 PM 6-3-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Was it low before you changed the oil? It could have affected to the point where rapid failure was imminent.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Was it low before you changed the oil? It could have affected to the point where rapid failure was imminent.

The day the oil was changed (day before the pump was pulled and damage was discovered), it was down 1.5qt.


----------



## britGTIflav (Oct 21, 2003)

after watching this video i checked my car for a similar noise. i can definitely hear a noise similar to this, very metal, pinging sort of noise and i can pretty much pinpoint it to the fuel pump. but it doesn't seem as loud as the video you posted. i know yours is with an aftermarket pump...should there be some sort of 'expected' level of noise coming from the pump? im probably in that mode now that i know it is there i notice it much more 


_Modified by britGTIflav at 9:38 AM 6-6-2008_


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (britGTIflav)*


_Quote, originally posted by *britGTIflav* »_after watching this video i checked my car for a similar noise. i can definitely hear a noise similar to this, very metal, pinging sort of noise and i can pretty much pinpoint it to the fuel pump. but it doesn't seem as loud as the video you posted. i know yours is with an aftermarket pump...should there be some sort of 'expected' level of noise coming from the pump? im probably in that mode now that i know it is there i notice it much more

Although I recommend everyone to check their followers and cam lobes, I wouldn't be so quick to jump the gun about the noise. Aside from the normal ticking of the FSI engine, even the stock pump itself has somewhat of a "plink" sound when running. However, what you heard in my video could be heard while sitting inside the car, with the hood closed, and the windows up. Trust me, it was loud and sounded nothing like a stock motor.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

If you are only hearing a *PING! PING! PING! PING!* high pitched metal noise and NO other noises like it, you are probably hearing the injectors. They are loud but, if you are concerned, it doesnt hurt to take it in to the dealership and have it checked out. You could probably even have a tech walk out and tell you if the noise is normal or not.


----------



## majid (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*

You should here all the noises mine makes. I'll be cracking 120k in the next couple of days


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (majid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majid* »_You should here all the noises mine makes. I'll be cracking 120k in the next couple of days









I honestly don't think yours sounds any different than the day you bought it.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

Keeping this up on top. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

My buddy's GLI...


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

specs on the gli?


----------



## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_My buddy's GLI...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

122,887 on an 07?!??!?!


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_122,887 on an 07?!??!?!

I believe it's an 06.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*

What oil and what intervals? Was it stock?


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_










That looks like "A" cam failure... am I right?


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_What oil and what intervals? Was it stock?

Not sure about the oil and intervals, but he is (was) running the APR pump.

_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_That looks like "A" cam failure... am I right?

Nope... "B" cam with current follower.


----------



## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*FV-QR*

he's runnin castrol 5w40, 10K intervals (against my recommendations







but he is on the highway 99% of the time obviously)


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_Nope... "B" cam with current follower.


Interesting... it looks like the typical "A" failure... the follower is dished in, and eaten away. Looks like it was "stuck" and not rotating, since the damage seems to be in a straight line... which might have accelerated the wear.


----------



## majid (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (veedubtek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubtek* »_he's runnin castrol 5w40, 10K intervals (against my recommendations







but he is on the highway 99% of the time obviously)

Since I won't be traveling as much now, I will be doing them at 5k. When this happened I was about a quart low on oil. Still in the safe but just barely. Worst part is I ordered the new follower last week since the inspection of it a month ago showed that the black coating (teflon I'm guessing) had worn off but the follower still looked fine


----------



## majid (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (veedubtek)*









Look at the trip. Said I still had 15 miles left till empty. Walt could never do that


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (majid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majid* »_the black coating (teflon I'm guessing) 

Coating is either DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) or a nitride (like TiNi that is used on knife blades).


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (majid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majid* »_
Since I won't be traveling as much now, I will be doing them at 5k. 

I hear yah on that. When I first bought my car I was commuting to work and traveling on the weekends. I found it very difficult to get enough time and daylight to do half interval oil changes on my own, or even time to drop it off at the dealership. Winters were even worse!


----------



## majid (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
I hear yah on that. When I first bought my car I was commuting to work and traveling on the weekends. I found it very difficult to get enough time and daylight to do half interval oil changes on my own, or even time to drop it off at the dealership. Winters were even worse! 

It wasn't so much the time. I worked in a garage. VW recommends 10k. Would like to have done 5k but if I was spending $70 every month an a half on oil changes I'd be broke.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (majid)*

Jamie, just think how much money you'll save after you start your new job.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (majid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majid* »_VW recommends 10k.

True, although that is on a vehicle directly from the factory. You're fairly modified.
What does audi recommend on the S3 given that it's very similar but bumped up in power?


----------



## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

How many miles on the pump ??
Any respone from APR?

We are all doomed, No one is safe


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (EL_3grab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_Any respone from APR?

What's APR going to do about VW's inadequate follower design?


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
What's APR going to do about VW's inadequate follower design?

I like APR and use their products on my car almost exclusively, but in my opinion they should have tested their product and included their own follower if VW's design is inadequate. 
Between the CAM, Follower, and Build-up I am starting to get worried about this engine.


----------



## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_
I like APR and use their products on my car almost exclusively, but in my opinion they should have tested their product and included their own follower if VW's design is inadequate. 
Between the CAM, Follower, and Build-up I am starting to get worried about this engine. 

I think APR did plenty of testing:


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
I think APR did plenty of testing:


















Obviously not enough if they are failing left and right.


----------



## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

I think APR did plenty of testing in normal operating conditions. Otherwise, they never would have released it. I want to know how many abuse/low oil conditions were tested.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_
Obviously not enough if they are failing left and right. 

APR pumps are not failing left and right... 
Some people are having issues with OEM parts that have clearly been outlined in an official VW and Audi TSB.
Blaming APR for that is almost like Blaming BBS for a messed up rim when your tire blows off and you continue to drive around on the bare rim. When the OEM follower wears though from inadequate oil coverage and or improper cam machining and the pump drives directly on the cam till its destroyed, it's the same as the bbs analogy.


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Blaming APR for that is almost like Blaming BBS for a messed up rim when your tire blows off and you continue to drive around on the bare rim. When the OEM follower wears though from inadequate oil coverage and or improper cam machining and the pump drives directly on the cam till its destroyed, it's the same as the bbs analogy.


Actually I think that is a terrible example. I am not picking on APR because I actually love APRs products (some might even consider me a fanboy) and I believe other companies are having similar issues. 
However, let me use an example from my line of work. if I am writing a program that works great on the test machine but crashes constantly on every other computer. The reason it is crashing might be due to an error within Windows and not within my program, but the bottom line is that I am releasing the product and it is not working correctly. It would be my job to either change my program to work correctly taking the Windows error into account or fix the Windows error as part of my installer. 
It might not be APRs (or another companies) fault that the followers are failing, but they are failing none the less and at a much higher rate with aftermarket pumps then with stock ones. It would seem further testing of this problem would have revealed those facts. They need to either find a way to work with what VW has given them, or replace the part that is causing the issue as part of their install process.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*

Can you prove that followers are failing much more with an APR pump than the OEM pump? The APR pump's tip is designed exactly the same as the OEM pump design unlike others. 
The problem isn't APR related, it's an oem issue that happens on many many many oem vehicles. Vw wouldn't put out a TSB unless it saw it all the time.


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_Obviously not enough if they are failing left and right. 

Had you been actually following this situation you would already know that it's not the pump that is failing, but the follower. They are even failing in completely stock vehicles. My friend Walt who is the head tech at my local dealer already had a completely stock Passat come in with a follower that failed.
The APR pump may be accelerating the failure of the follower considering the additional pressure it exerts on the follower but there's really no other way around it.


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
Had you been actually following this situation you would already know that it's not the pump that is failing, but the follower. They are even failing in completely stock vehicles. My friend Walt who is the head tech at my local dealer already had a completely stock Passat come in with a follower that failed.
The APR pump may be accelerating the failure of the follower considering the additional pressure it exerts on the follower but there's really no other way around it.

I've been following....I am not denying it is a weakness of the follower that is the underlying cause. While there are cases of it failing on a stock car, they are few and far between. It certainly seems that the added stress caused by an after market fuel pump is causing premature failure. So again that returns us to the fact that the manufacturers of these pumps did not catch this point of weakness.


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## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Can you prove that followers are failing much more with an APR pump than the OEM pump? The APR pump's tip is designed exactly the same as the OEM pump design unlike others. 

First I never said APR. I said aftermarket fuel pumps in general. But, you are right there, I can not scientifically prove it. However an un-scientific review, it certainly seems like most of the failures that we have heard about on here have occurred to cars with after market fuel pumps. 4 of my friends have GTI/GLI and 2 have had the follower issue. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but they are the only two running after-market fuel pumps. Again, not scientific proof by any means, but it seems to confirm what we see on these boards. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_ The problem isn't APR related, it's an oem issue that happens on many many many oem vehicles. Vw wouldn't put out a TSB unless it saw it all the time. 

I never once said the problem was APR related. I said that companies like them should have tested this enough to recognize the OEM weakness before releasing the product. I am not blaming APR for the failures, I am merely saying that I thought they should have picked these issues up during testing. 


_Modified by aeproberts21 at 3:16 PM 7-17-2008_


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_So again that returns us to the fact that the manufacturers of these pumps did not catch this point of weakness.

They are aware of the weakness, and even APR ships their fuel pumps with a copy of the VW/Audi TSB along with a recommended schedule of checking the follower every so often. There are owners of the APR pump who have thousands of miles on them with no problems whatsoever. We can't blame a tuner for these failures. That'd be like someone breaking a stock axle by running racing slicks and then blaming the tire company for breaking the axle.
Until VW releases a better follower or someone designs something better, this will always be an issue, regardless of what pump you are running.


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## majid (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (ruso)*

If i'm not mistaken my follower has 123k on it and 50k with the APR pump. Walt can say for sure if he ever changed the follower


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: (majid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *majid* »_If i'm not mistaken my follower has 123k on it and 50k with the APR pump. Walt can say for sure if he ever changed the follower

I can live with, pump, follower, cam change every 50K


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (EL_3grab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_I can live with, pump, follower, cam change every 50K









But how about 4,500 miles?


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_
But how about 4,500 miles?









I'm starting to think it has something to do with the peaky K03, is there any BT experience the same issue with the follower??


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (ruso)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruso* »_But how about 4,500 miles?









I think 4.5k is a little bit much for most people. I think if you just plan on dropping a new follower in every 25k or 50k miles you should be fine...
Now on a GTI/GLI/A3 if you go and do right handed donuts in a parking lot for 5 minutes, that might be enough to require a cam follower change as well. On my A4 I would have to do left handed donuts due to the engine orientation.
I think what is causing the varied mileage is simply the routine of the driver. The more you create conditions that remove oil from the cam follower, the faster it wears out.
The Cam Follower to Cam mating surface is a hydrodynamic bearing. If it has adequate clean oil there is virtually no wear. As soon as the oil is reduced the wear increases rapidly.
Picture of my new follower 5k after install:
http://picasaweb.google.com/BJ...29298


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*


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## JEttaVR66Spd (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (ruso)*

Ruso - What is your cam/cam follower situation now?
Any new issues?
Still running an after market pump?


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## ruso (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (JEttaVR66Spd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JEttaVR66Spd* »_Ruso - What is your cam/cam follower situation now?
Any new issues?
Still running an after market pump?

I never replaced the pump after the follower failed. I now have about 31,000 miles on the car and so far it hasn't failed with the stock pump. I really need to pull the follower and see how it's wearing.


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