# 8v Crossflow CIS Turbo!



## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Well guys, i've been searching, reading, and talking to members about this, and finally got pretty much everything I need to get this going!
I'm still new to the whole CIS thing, so cut me a little slack.








Hopefully my thread can help some people out and answer some questions.
Ahem.. So this is what i'm starting with!
1987 8v Jetta coupe.
Mystery engine I picked off a local vortexer.
SO far..
1. Unknown CR 1985 8v motor.. JH head.. Previously raced engine.
2. Picking up an ABA intake manifold ( lower and upper )
3. Volvo 240T Dizzy and matching WUR
4. T3 60 trim turbo and ATP Exhaust manifold
5. Freshened up 8v Crossflow head
6. MSD 6BTM box

So far I don't have any big goals HP wise, maybe around 150, considering I have a brand new clutch and pp in my car and its only OEM, so I don't want to kill it.








The to do list!
1. Find out my CR, hopefully its 8.5-1
2. Tap the injector inserts in the ABA manifold and get an NPT 
fitting that can hold CIS injectors.
3. Figure out what the 3 port holes on the 240T WUR are all 
for.








4. Get an IC and tubing to run everything
I'll have more stuff to update later, as well as start getting some pictures up!
Thanks guys!
Steve-


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: 8v Crossflow CIS Turbo! (BSD)*

You are going to have trouble finding a NPT-threaded fitting that will accept CIS injector o-rings.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

You are right, BUT! That will not stop me!
If I have to, i'll get some aluminum a shop can machine to fit the injector.
If I do get a fitting, and the injector doesnt fit perfect, I can weld it to the fitting, I have plenty of injectors, so i'm not worried about doing that.
*shrug*
Any more info or criticizm is appreciated!


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

Have a look at this other thread, for pictures I posted.
To the OP. You and I were talking about this Via PM. Did you ever get in touch with Nick and see if he came up with something?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4097252


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

I did infact message him, but didn't find a solution either.
However, I found a 16v CIS car.. and its manifold appears to be able to fit a crossflow 8v head, correct me if im wrong, but if it did tha would solve the problem.


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BSD* »_I did infact message him, but didn't find a solution either.
However, I found a 16v CIS car.. and its manifold appears to be able to fit a crossflow 8v head, correct me if im wrong, but if it did tha would solve the problem.

I totally forgot to write this up! woops!!








Here is my "solution" for the installing CIS injectors into an EFI manifold...








I know my MS Paint skills are ghetto but follow me. The main issue with installing CIS injectors into an EFI manifold is the size of the threaded injector cups. They are WAY larger then the EFI injectors and, in most VW specific cases, there isn't enough material around the EFI injector holes to drill and tap for the CIS cups. So my solution is to create a press in style adapter that will press fit into the standard EFI hole yet have a larger opening for a CIS injector (with stock o-ring) to "snap" into the top. The drawing above is ghetto and not even close to scale but I think you can understand my theory.
Another note: The reason I didn't just suggest having the EFI injector holes machined to fit the o-ring is because the CIS injectors would stick way down into the opening of the manfold runner/port and negatively affect airflow. If you follow Mike's solution of the NPT adapters shown below you can see how far up the o-ring is from the EFI original location and the tip of the injector is still a little too far into the runner for comfort... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








Mike - If you can lend me a lower manifold from an ABA and a CIS injector with o-ring I'll get some measurements and create a scale drawing in AutoCAD (which one could then bring to their local machine shop to have produced).
Hope this helps!











_Modified by Holden McNeil at 10:19 AM 2-3-2009_


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Excellent post Holden!
That diagram you drew is just fine, it makes sense.
Mike, get him a manifold so he can autocad it up, LOL.
Thanks again, that helps out alot!


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

I've got an unmolested Mk3 ABA lower manifold laying around. I'll certainly get it into Nick's hands. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
BTW, a 16v intake manifold will not bolt up to any 8v head.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Sweet, thanks Mike and guys, I appreciate it.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (BSD)*

Alright, my plans have changed a little.
Instead of using my old block, I decided to just go aba.
I'm picking up a block from an mk3 Jetta locally.
CIS ABA turbo, woo.
I'll have updates and pictures later, im at work.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Alright alright, i've been slacking.. finally got nice outside and started working on my datsun and made a gauge face/cluster for the jetta.








I guess I can't make up my mind, but this is whats going on so far.
1. ABA Block and Head
2. Either stock internals or forged internals, 
low compression.
3. AEG Upper and lower intake manifold.
( Bigger than ABA, comes out drivers side )
4. Volvo 240T Dizzy + WUR
5. Garret T3 and ATP manifold
6. MSD 6BTM box
I really just need to get a wastegate now, boost gauge, a VSS for my tranny to do the MK3 gauge swap, aba accessoris.. etc..
Also, I found some fittings that hold CIS Injectors pretty well, and think I have a pretty good way to secure them cheaply. I will have pictures and info up on how I did it.
Thanks again to Nick and Mike for information on that.
So far everything is straight forward parts wise, but we'll see how it goes when everything is on the car.
Pictures soon guys, don't worry! Haha..
_Modified by BSD at 5:45 PM 2-11-2009_


_Modified by BSD at 6:16 PM 2-11-2009_


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Basically, its a 3/8 Flared Brass nut and a 3/8 2" long coupler.
Its not a simple "screw on" type connector, but the injector fits Perfect inside them both, and the flare has enough room inside for the rubber O-ring.
I'm very satisfied at how well it fits in with the o-ring.
The reason for the coupler is for one.. you can cut two of those in half and be able to cover all 4 injectors.. and they will thread right into the lower ABA manifold once you tap it.. and the injector Won't stick too far into the runner.
I will be welding these together this weekend and have pictures.. but its seems like a solid solution.. and only costs $6 to do all 4 injectors.


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

Looks like a solid solution on the cheap!! One question about it - what holds the injector in the flared brass nut?


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

I found out that.. the injector fits in the brass nut and the coupler perfectly, and neither of them wiggle.. Which means they are aligned and touch perfectly.
My idea is this.. I cut 2 couplers in half ( Meaning i'll have 4 adapters, one for each injector ).. and weld or Braze the cut coupler to the Flare nut while the injector is inside them. With the injector inside during the braze/weld, it would make them completely flush, so there wouldn't be issues with that.
The main reason for the coupler was the ability to save like 2 bucks, and I can cut a custom length, depending how far I want the injector to sit in the intake runners.


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## shannonekermans (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: (BSD)*

heres a pic of the cis distirbutor for you


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks shannonekermans!!
I was right about to do a search on the 240T, I am putting that in my car tomorrow.


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## shannonekermans (Oct 9, 2007)

good luck with the build keep us posted, i always like to see threads lie this


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

I will have some pictures up tonight of the pieces fitted up, and tomorrow morning i'll be brazing up the connectors and ill test their strength.. etc.
Next thing i'll do is pick up an aba lower and do some fitting, although I will be using an AEG manifold with my project.
Thanks guys!


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BSD* »_I will have some pictures up tonight of the pieces fitted up, and tomorrow morning i'll be brazing up the connectors and ill test their strength.. etc.
Next thing i'll do is pick up an aba lower and do some fitting, although I will be using an AEG manifold with my project.
Thanks guys!

Soooooo. Where are those pictures!?!
*Claps Hands* Chop-Chop! Get to it!


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Hahaha, sorry, been distracted with the beetle and datsun.
Ahem.. so!
I decided, for simplicity, I would JB weld the connectors together.
They should hold just fine like this, but if I really wanted too I would braze them. I'm hoping by making it easier, people can make these themselves without special tools/equipment.
To whomever doesn't know, JB Weld is like a paste. When it cures, its practically as strong as steel and can handle pretty extreme heat. Its available at hardware stores and automotive stores, comes in two tubes of paste. Blah Blah...
My camera has been dead, so i'm gonna pick up my charger today and upload those pictures!










_Modified by BSD at 3:31 PM 2-23-2009_


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## motorbreath1800 (Jan 11, 2008)

I would braze for safety sake. I only use JBweld when I absolutely have to. But I want to see the pics.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

I agree, but the way the injector sits, it should be alright.. I'm really curious to how well it will work, so i'm willing to go with the risk.








My next set I make, I will braze.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

They look a little sloppy, but I really don't care.. function over form!








( They aren't crooked btw, the threads on these fittngs at the bottom aren't perfectly flat.







)

The red is the "Injector" and the green is the "Injector O-ring"
The tip if the injector sticks about 3 MM or so past the threads.. which to me, seems like a good spot? Correct me if I am wrong of course.
I still have yet to obtain a lower aba manifold to thread these badboys and check clearances and everything.
Besides that, a local member might have located a good aba block for me, so I should have things picking up a little quicker. 
Steve-



_Modified by BSD at 1:24 AM 2-25-2009_


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

Looks like they're coming along well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
A buddy of mine has a stock upper and lower Mk3 manifold laying around if you're still looking for one.











_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 8:20 AM 2-25-2009_


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holden McNeil* »_Looks like a solid solution on the cheap!! One question about it - *what holds the injector in the flared brass nut?*

x2









_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_A buddy of mine has a stock upper and lower Mk3 manifold laying around if you're still looking for one.









It's not for sale (yet)

















_Modified by Holden McNeil at 10:14 AM 2-25-2009_


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holden McNeil* »_
It's not for sale (yet)

















Ha ha, I actually meant my *other* buddy... Sorry Nick, I didn't know we were exclusive.


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_
Ha ha, I actually meant my *other* buddy... Sorry Nick, I didn't know we were exclusive.























What do you mean we're not exclusive..


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Hahaha, you guys.. 
*Oh Nick, If you look at my first picture, there is a little lip inside that flare nut. The o-ring sits inside the flare nut against the lip flat and is held by the threads in the nut.* It is an extremely snug fit for the o-ring to get inside there. To be honest, without the O-ring it takes quite a bit of pulling to get the Injector out of my little "insert"
With the O-ring on there its harder to get out than a factory insert.. lol.
( Atleast its at the front of the engine! We all know how hard some injectors are to get out after a few years!







)
*When I get a chance, I will be making another set, except I will braze them together.* 
Steve- 

_Modified by BSD at 12:32 PM 2-25-2009_


_Modified by BSD at 10:14 AM 2-28-2009_


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (BSD)*

i love these kind of projects http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Glad to hear! And thanks!
It just recently snowed, so that kind of set me back a little.. and the whole work schedule.. blah blah.
Anyways, I just purchased a tap and die set for $27 bucks, which will be added to my $ total for this project. 
I took the measurement on the threads of my fittings, and they are 18 if I remember correctly, which would appear to be an excellent thread into an aba lower.
When I finally get ahold of one I will take some measurements and see.
Thanks guys! ( im slow )
Steve-


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BSD* »_I took the measurement on the threads of my fittings, and they are 18 if I remember correctly, which would appear to be an excellent thread into an aba lower.


I used 3/8" 18 NPT on my mock-up.
That's a pretty common size fitting that can be found at hardware stores, and I remember it was fairly easy to tap the stock injector holes with the tap. It took a little persuasion to get the initial bite, but once it got going, I tapped in a few turns, then backed out, cleaned the shavings, and went in a few more, until it went through. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, the fitting is 3/8, aka 18.
It is very common, and thats why I went with it.








Hopefully I can pick up a lower tomorrow morning.. depending how freakin cold it is outside. Haha.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, I might still get a lower mani, but I just bought an AEG setup off a fellow tex'r.








Thanks MIKEJETTAVR6!
So here we go.
























There she is!
Like mentioned earlier, it is an extremely snug fit. I made a ghetto air leak testing mod using duck tape wrapped around the injector fitting and an air compressor. ( I hook it to both ends )
Result?! No leaks! *cheers*
So, this is my cheap solution.. Now I'll have to make a brazed set! ( Might use a brass coupler instead of steel next time )
In about a 2 weeks or so my AEG will be here, till then.. hopefully I can find an ABA mani I can practice tapping before I tear into the AEG.


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

Looking great man!! Keep up the good work!!


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks Nick!








I guess in the mean time I'll take my turbo apart and make sure everything looks good.
Anyone have Garrett t3 rebuild kits? ;P


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*FV-QR*

http://www.gpopshop.com/garrettt3kits.html


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (MFZERO)*

Nice, thanks for the link dude. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 89dx (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (BSD)*

i like this thread


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks bud!








I'll be making the JY tomorrow morning to practice on that aba lower.. hopefully.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Update!
I picked up a lower ABA mani out of a 98 jetta..
It would appear that the injector inserts are a hairline bigger than 3/8, which makes them not able to tap.
Unless there is a "different" sized aba lower maniofld that has smaller injector inserts and can could be tapped for a 3/8, it will be a little harder to do it. 
Anyone chime in?








Worst case scenario, I can use Heili-coils.. but I don't really want to do that.
Steve-


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## johnnyGO (Feb 23, 2009)

Dont be so harsh on heli-coils







Me and my buddys would use them to fix our pedal threads on our modified trials bikes. And if they can hold up to trials riding then they can hold up to some injectors.
Here is an example of how hard we where with the bikes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipdGFxmGXNQ

On another note, you could always have the holes welded and redrilled.


_Modified by johnnyGO at 9:02 AM 3-11-2009_


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (johnnyGO)*

I agree, heili-coils are pretty awesome.. I'm gonna use em for a motor mount that got stripped.








I'm just trying to make this as simple as possible, maybe we can have some more cis hybrids out there because of this.. hopefully. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I got my AEG manifold in the mail today but couldn't open it because I was leaving for work. Thats what I will be using anyways, but I wanted to cover an ABA too.









Steve-


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Update.. 
I checked out my AEG manifold today ( MK4 manifold, bigger runners than an MK3 manifold )and it is a hairline too big.. but at the bottom of the injector insert, there is room to tap, so it actually Can work without a heili-coil if I wanted. The only problem is that there is only a small portion of the insert that would be threaded, so my injector fittings wouldn't be threaded in all the way. I'll have some pictures up eventually, my computer died yesterday so I can't upload at home.








On a side note though, I found a local member who has an aba block and etc for me.. so hopefully I can get this all put together and on the road by the end of the summer!









Steve-



_Modified by BSD at 4:53 PM 3-12-2009_


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## BigWilieStyle (Apr 26, 2008)

*Re: (BSD)*

DONT HELP THIS GUY!!! HE SOLD ME A BAD MOTOR THAT WAS SUPOSE TO WORK>!!


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*roll eyes*
I was going to help you out, but if your going to post in all of my threads like this, forget it.
I don't have to explain myself, and I quite frankly won't.
Before you go bashing though you should probably PM me directly.. 
Thanks
Anywhoot, I still don't have any new updates yet.. I still have to pick up a block.. moneys tight!
I am pretty sure that i'm gonna heilie-coil my manifold though, because thats about the easiest thing I could think of, price wise as well.
Steve-


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## nairmac (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

I had to use heili coils on 2 of my oil pan bolt holes- they're great.


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## BigWilieStyle (Apr 26, 2008)

*Re: (BSD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BSD* »_*roll eyes*
I was going to help you out, but if your going to post in all of my threads like this, forget it.
I don't have to explain myself, and I quite frankly won't.
Before you go bashing though you should probably PM me directly.. 
Thanks


Alright so I've called u and txted u. And u can't pick up or reply? To me that's more useful then I'm'ing u. Honestly u could have just told me what was wrong with it so I wouldn't have wasted my $200. And an hour and a half drive. So a 3 hour drive total. And imma call u again so u should answer. Ill also try I'm'ing u but who knows if ull answer. So all I'm really asking for u to is respond to me and tell me why ud do such a thing to someone that was expecting to get his car going. Thank u have a great day and also u can call me to my number is 2247309879! Thanks Wil


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

PM'd
Back to the super slow build thread and my home computer still being dead.


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

No Updates?


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holden McNeil* »_No Updates?

Yeah, wtf?


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Easy fellas, been pretty busy with my other cars and fixing up the brakes and stuff on the jetta. =P
I have some pictures of my fittings in the manifold, but don't have a computer to upload with, lol.
I'm ordering my new Motherboard today, yay.
Steve-


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (BSD)*

























The first picture is the different between an ABA lower manifold and an AEG lower manifold. It looks kinda hard to tell by the picture, but its quite a noticeable difference in person.
That is a mock up of the fittings in the manifold, once "spring break" is over, I will be going to my old highschool to add some aluminum to my lower manifold so I can tap it for my 3/8 fittings.
Besides that, been doing some "cosmetic" enhancements to the jetta..








Steve-


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

Well, that looks pretty good.
However, I am a little concerned that once you have the injector in place, there is not going to be enough room for the braided stainless line to bend without smashing into the runners where they curve up to meet the upper manifold...
You may end up shortening those pipes a bit. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 2:38 PM 4-9-2009_


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

I actually measured and there is enough clearance, but not very much! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Good eye though.








I really wish spring break would end.. I have no way of filling in some aluminum. Unless I can source the right sized heili-coils.








Steve-


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## DustyGTI (Apr 16, 2005)

*Re: (BSD)*

WE need updates!!


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: (DustyGTI)*

Just waiting for my tax return and there will be plenty of updates.








Broke right now, lol.
Steve-


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## deathsled (Jul 6, 2008)

i'm actually doing the same build as you right now. except i'm machining my cis injector ports and base of my manifold out of a block of aluminum just so i can build a better flowing cis intake for my aba


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (deathsled)*


_Quote, originally posted by *deathsled* »_i'm actually doing the same build as you right now. except i'm machining my cis injector ports and base of my manifold out of a block of aluminum just so i can build a better flowing cis intake for my aba

Sweet!
Do you have a build thread, or a link to pics?!?! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## deathsled (Jul 6, 2008)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_
Sweet!
Do you have a build thread, or a link to pics?!?! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

i wish, dont own a camera. all the pics i have are from my parents house whenever i'm there


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Thats cool. My build thread is to be budgeted with minimal skills.. atleast I hope.
Not everyone has machining abilities or can afford to get it done. ;P
Steve-


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## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (BSD)*

nice this is being watched now.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks!
Still being a little slow, just picked up an 88 rocco and will be going to get my aba block within the next 2 weeks as well as ordering my turbo rebuild kit








Tax returns are a beautiful thing!
Steve-


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## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (BSD)*

one question though.....why not make your lower intake manifold a short runner? i imagine you'd be running a front mount so wouldn't that make running the ic piping easier, give you a shorter charge pipe, and give you more room for your fuel injectors too? or am i completely off base here?


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## nairmac (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: (zcxerxes)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zcxerxes* »_one question though.....why not make your lower intake manifold a short runner? i imagine you'd be running a front mount so wouldn't that make running the ic piping easier, give you a shorter charge pipe, and give you more room for your fuel injectors too? or am i completely off base here? 

You lose a good amount of torque with a short runner intake, if I recall correctly.


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## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (nairmac)*

i thought that was proportional to the size of the chamber on the sri. i'm probably wrong


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (zcxerxes)*

With a plenum type intake manifold, every factor has an influence on the powerband.
Runner length will have an affect on the powerband, because it will change the RPM at which pulse wave tuning takes place.
Also: Shorter runners typically allow more airflow at higher RPM, whereas longer runners will typically give the air a chance to gain velocity as it flows through the port.
I am not 100% sure on the relationship of plenum size to the powerband. However, I think that a smaller plenum offers good throttle response at lower RPM's, and a larger plenum functions well at high RPM.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, My original plan was to keep things as simplistic as possible, and as cost effective as possible for us cheap CIS guys.








But I might change things around a little.
My neighbor is gonna try and fill in my injector cups on my MK4 lower manifold so I can tap it for my fittings I made.
As far as functionality for an intake manifold, what I grasped is that short runner intakes allow more power at a Higher RPM and long runners provide more torque and power at a Lower RPM. But, it all depends on my timing, exhaust.. etc etc.. I have something written down somewhere on how to figure out what setups best for what I have.. idk i'll try and find it.
I would prefer to Not use a short runner though, because this car is a daily and I would rather have the torque, but we will see.








Steve-


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

interesting... this might be exactly what I was looking for for my "super double secret special CIS build project"


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Lol, but you'll share your super double special cis build project with me right?








Steve-


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

...
~ Crickets chirping ~
...


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Lol, I wish I knew what was going on myself right now.
I found a 5 cyl quantum in the Junkyard and am pretty tempted to pick that up instead of an ABA.








Till then, i'm yanking my CIS stuff out and putting a carb on my car, i'm gonna put all my CIS stuff into my Scirocco. Thats gonna be the turbo car now.








Steve-


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