# Sharing time - Lightened Lifters!



## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

Okay, guys and gals, I am getting ready to redo the head on my 16v Passat and I went and splurged. I bought the lightened lifters from Vince @ QualityVW. Here are the numbers that are on the box.
TRW Federal Mogul
54-3301 8pcs
Audi 030305 / 030
VW 034 109 309
If anybody figures out a way to source these, share it with everybody else out here.


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

$13.76 from Carmadillo
$10/$13.26 from Impex.
The applications listed by Impex list every VW and Audi vehicle that uses the regular lifters.


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*

Ah, yes but these are not the OEM lifters. They are the ones that everyone is discussing.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1018361


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scottnbarb* »_Ah, yes but these are not the OEM lifters. They are the ones that everyone is discussing.


Yeah, I know...I follow the threads. I was just saying that even impex recognizes that they work with our cars. The part # is different than regular lifters, which only cost $7.48/piece.


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## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*

so anyone figure out exactly what they are?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

*YEA BABY!!!!!*

You get a discount on my valves, for sharing the info!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
One thing leaves to be mentioned however, can you accurately weigh these in grams (so we can get an average out of the 16) so we can see the savings over stock??
WOOHOO!!!!


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

I will try to bring our letter scale home from work today. Anybody know what an OEM lifter weighs for comparison purposes?


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

Can you weigh one of the old ones you take out? Just soak it in a cleaner for a bit to remove any oil/crud first.


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (chois)*

I am not planning on doing the head for a couple of weeks or so. Bowwow in town was interested in these so I might be able to take them down there and do a comparison with a brand new OEM.


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## ericb49 (Oct 5, 1999)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
One thing leaves to be mentioned however, can you accurately weigh these in grams (so we can get an average out of the 16) so we can see the savings over stock??


IIRC these also use less oil than standard lifters, right? So the "dead weight" matters, but less oil in the lifter is not only less weight but less resistance...right?


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (ericb49)*

Well, $10, or even $13.50 beats the $16 TT is selling them for. What a beautiful day in the world of VW valvetrains.


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## rocco-82 (Apr 30, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*

The lifters 034 109 309 are from Audi 3B engine. (2.2L, 20V, 5Cyl)


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sold on expense* »_What a beautiful day in the world of VW valvetrains.

Isn't it though? 16v head has been around for 17 years, and we're just getting started!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (MaestroG60)*

This should be in the FAQ. Same with the information on solid lifter buckets from PowerDubs valve thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*

Well, this isn't exactly a _frequently_ asked question...








We should actually have a different sticky w/ info pertaining to power parts.... and leave the FAQ for info on how to do maintenance, etc!!


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

Here are the results from the letter scale I used today. 
Brand New OEM VW Lifter - 64 grams (lifter was bone dry)
TRW Federal Mogul Lifter - 61 grams (soaked in oil)
Not as much as a difference I was hoping but that is almost a 5% decrease in weight.


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scottnbarb* »_Here are the results from the letter scale I used today. 
Brand New OEM VW Lifter - 64 grams (lifter was bone dry)
TRW Federal Mogul Lifter - 61 grams (soaked in oil)
Not as much as a difference I was hoping but that is almost a 5% decrease in weight.









Isn't the oil weight significant?


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*

Ya, it helps but I wouldn't expect more than maybe a couple of grams. The way I look at it though, the lifter's didn't cost me much more than a good set of OEM ones. Good buy from that perspective. Performance, every little bit helps in the end.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

Why did you have the 'lighter' lifters soaked in oil? Did you already have them soaking before I asked you to weigh them?
Unfortunately, it essentially invalidates the entire test. The only thing it appears we can be sure of, is that they are definitely lighter than the stock ones.
According to Vince's website, (and we know how reliable he can be







) the lighter lifters "save a little under 8 grams per lifter".
Another thing, according to Rick's post in the following thread, the stock lifters weigh 84.5G's. That is quite different from what you post?? Reference --> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1092012
Not to be a ball buster, but there just seems to be some misinformation somewhere here.
Unfortunately, I also found out a tidbit of info on what appears to be these new lifters that I am not really too happy about. I took those part numbers and did a web search this morning. I went to the parent company site (Federal Mogul) and browsed around until I found the page about their lifters.
The branch of Federal Mogul that makes lifters appears to be called Speed-Pro. According to their website - "RPM limitations of between 5500 and 6000 RPM"!! Reference- Federal Mogul 
Now, this is of course not knowing what the actual OEM lifters are rated to. For all we know, they could be rated the same, but I know the factory redline is higher than this, and I myself plan on reving to 8k.
Just something to think about.
On a related note,...while doing some research I found a .pdf file from INA regarding some of their lifters. If you look at the specs, it is interesting to see that they list maximum RPM for the different lifters. INA Lifter file 
I am still diligently working on finding a better lifter for our engine, one that is both lighter *&* high rev. I have just about given up on the ones that TT & Vince are supplying. It appears that I will have to do this the hard way and make them myself, but rest assured, if I do, they will _kick ass_....unfortunately, they will most likely not be cheap. There is definitely room for improvement though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_I am still diligently working on finding a better lifter for our engine, one that is both lighter *&* high rev. I have just about given up on the ones that TT & Vince are supplying. It appears that I will have to do this the hard way and make them myself, but rest assured, if I do, they will _kick ass_....unfortunately, they will most likely not be cheap. There is definitely room for improvement though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Will you go for making a light hydraulic lifter, or go the solid route?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*

_If_ I am able and willing to do it, they will certainly be hydro. Solids have been done many times, in many ways, and do not interest me.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

i just wanna add my couple of cents here.
the weight of the valve train components really shouldnt make that much of a difference once the engine is running as the counterweight of the cam lobes and the pressure of the valve springs pretty much keeps everything spinning over and over in nearly perpetual motion when youre at constant rpms, so its really not making a whole lot of difference. i suppose its worth it if youre slamming on the throttle and steadily increasing speed (and who isnt














), but youre paying a lot of money for a pretty small gain.
just thought id throw some fuel on the fire.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (ValveCoverGasket)*

Unfortunately, I hate to be the one to tell you that you are wrong.








You imply that constant RPMs negates any effect, but regardless of increase/decrease in RPM, you still have basic physics.
Even at a steady state of RPM, say 7,000 RPM, your valves are opening and closing 116 times a second. Therefore they are changing direction 232 times a second. For every time this happens, it is the job of the cam lobe to push the valve downwards and start it in motion. It is then completely up to the valve spring to slow the valve back down, limit its amount of travel, and stop its motion and then reverse its direction causing it to close again.
At high RPM, and/or fast ramp speeds, a heavier valve for example is going to want to continue on its path opening moreso than a lighter valve. It will take a stiffer spring for control to stop this from happening. Stiffer springs = more resistance, more resistance = power being robbed. So you want the lightest springs possible that will control your valves for your given application (cam design, and RPMs) Put a light spring with a heavy valve at high RPM and the force of the valve opening is greater than the force of the spring trying to close it, and you end up with valves open further and/or longer than they should be. This also can cause the cam to 'come off lobe' while the valve is still 'out floating' so it has no resistance anymore, and when it does finally close, it slams shut at full force and damages the valve and seat. (this is where tuliped valves come from).
So a lighter valvetrain setup can turn higher RPMs without needing stiffer springs. This frees up the hp that would other wise be needed to move the heavier components as well as the stiffer springs.
Want a example you can feel? Put your arm out in front of you, parallel to the floor. Now swing your arm side to side, left to right in front of you. 
Easy enough??
Now hold a 5lb weight in your hand and try it again!
You either just increased the range of motion, or you increased the amount of strength you had to use to change directions each time. Either way, you felt it.
There is no perpetual motion, every time that valve opens and closes, it takes work. We are just lightening that workload....literally. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








But I will agree with you on one statement, it does cost money. No it is not a turbo or supercharger or nitrous. Cost/HP is high comparatively. 
Is it for everyone? No. 
Does it work? You betcha... 
Start looking at almost any performance articles related to an engine, and they are always speaking of finding ways to lighten valvetrain components.

Ok, enough of my early morning babble...I just got out of bed and ended up typing this for 30 minutes. 
Hopefully some more knowledgeable people than me can give you some numbers. That new guy Rick seemed to know his stuff, if he comes back.
I'll try to find documentation online when I have time at work today.


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## Dimitri16V (Jul 4, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

Don't forget the lifters are turning too while the engine is running. BUT the RPM info on those lifters is discouraging, they are probably OK for the 8V and G60 but i wouldn't want use them in a 16V if i hit the redline often. strength is another question mark, if you use Shricks and stiffer springs, the lifters take a beating. Now if the lightweight lifters were made of titanium.....


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Dimitri16V)*

PowerDubs - good research but there is a possible problem there. I contacted Federal Mogul main telephone: 248-354-7700 before I bought these because I had the part number already. They were unable to pull up the listing at all with the part numbers I had. According to Vince these lifters come straight from Germany which might explain why Federal Mogul USA could not look up the part numbers. We all know the problems we run into with our VW's and German part numbers. Does that mean the info you found is incorrect? Who knows? I know that we don't though.
Now as to weighing them. The lifters came to me covered in oil and soaked. They were wrapped in a plastic bag to keep any oil from dripping out. This is to prevent them from being damaged during shipping. I am definitely not going to go to the trouble of trying to dry the lifters out so that I can properly weigh them. When I went to Bowwow they pulled out their stock brand new OEM lifters for me to weigh with my letter scale. This is an electronic scale designed for smalls letters, 5 grams -> 250 grams. This scale should have been acurate enough for this test. There should be a number of other sources out there that can provide the weight of a brand new OEM lifter for comparison purposes. There is no way that this scale was going to be out by ~20 grams. Sorry.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

Hmmm... something is fishy.
That number you called is for the WORLDWIDE headquarters.....it is not a subdivision of a parent company in Germany. The US location you called is the headquaters of everything. You called the head honcho line. If anybody should know, they should know. Of course it is possible that you had somebody clueless on the other end. With hundreds and probably thousands of products, I am sure they can't know everything.
Also, I found the main search page for ALL Federal Mogul parts --> Click here 
I looked up a 90 2.0 16v, and while it listed valves available, there was no mention of any lifters for that app.
Much more research is needed. On many fronts... we need to find someone official that can give us info on these things. RPM limits, weights, etc.
I appreciate your help. The search continues........


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

Pic


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Want a example you can feel? Put your arm out in front of you, parallel to the floor. Now swing your arm side to side, left to right in front of you. 


what im saying is that the lobes are offset, therefore making the spinning of the cam nearly effortless at a constant rpm. so its like your two arms would be connected, and bringing the weights up and down at opposite times which offsets the effort it takes to move them....
at any rate, my head hurts from thinking about it so im gonna stop, but if could convey my idea a little better im sure itd make some sense... but it takes less than 15hp to keep a honda accord at 60mph


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## RickDat (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights*

I weighed all my 16V parts last weekend (I was changing valve stem seals on the motor in my car - not the future race motor) to get accurate details, instead of the various estimates I already had written down from 12-18 months ago. I weighed 4 hyd. lifters and divided by 4 to get 84.5g each. 
I was surprised to see a value of 68g for lifters already on that old piece of paper. So I went back out and weighed 5 of them and got 84.5g each again. Until I saw "Sold on Expense"s measurement of 64g dry, I had dismissed that 68g value. Now I am wondering if there are two different hydraulic lifters available.
I know I have had heads here that were from 1.8 and 2.0 (the current one) motors here. Maybe someone with access to a VW parts listing can shed more light on this?
Nice pic, PowerDubs. Looking at that cutaway, they don't look like they should be so heavy.
Rick Dathan
Australia


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (ValveCoverGasket)*

You are mixing items. On this last point, you are correct... although there have been hollow cams made for many performance engines, the moment of inertia in a cam is very low, so it does not show an appreciable difference.
Valves, and followers and retainers are completely different however, and this is where you are off...
Your thought on moving your arms up and down to offset each other does not work either. The valve knows no difference if there are 2 other valves next to it, or none at all... it still sees the same forces needed to move each way.
If you can drive a civic up to 60mph and shut off the engine and maintain that speed on a 15hp engine, I'd like to see it. Wind resistance alone would kill ya.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (RickDat)*

Rick,
You may be correct... Over the weekend, I had occasion to be inside a disassembled 1.8 16v head while testing on my springs and retainers was taking place. The lifters in the head had the same triangle notch as the s'possed lighter ones. I even remarked on this to my friend that was there.
I'd bet there were more than one type/brand/supplier of the lifters that were used OEM over the years and that is where the variance has came to play.
Needless to say, the lifter I was holding in my hand on Sunday....(which if we are correct was one of the lighter OEM ones) was still damn heavy!! I can't believe we are the only ones that have ever wanted lighter lifters.
The search continues....


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (RickDat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RickDat* »_Looking at that cutaway, they don't look like they should be so heavy.

From what I just read, they have to be somewhat beefy to limit deflection under load. Looks like to be much lighter at all, it would need to be made of another material.
Click here for more info than you ever wanted to know about hydro lifters.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (PowerDubs)*

funny, you found them in a 1.8L head and I found them in a 2L passat head. hmmm......


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (weeblebiker)*

Actually....you are right... they were in a 2.0 head.... the 1.8 head is at my house in a box. My bad.
Could it be standard that the 2.0's had lighter lifters than the 1.8's? Very interesting.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_If you can drive a civic up to 60mph and shut off the engine and maintain that speed on a 15hp engine, I'd like to see it. Wind resistance alone would kill ya.


accord, and it will work
but about my point, i understand now, havent really been awake all week.







and yet i still get online and ramble. hehe


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_the weight of the valve train components really shouldnt make that much of a difference

While digging around on the net at work today, I found this. Granted, I have NO idea what it means, but apparently valvetrain weight makes a big difference to whatever brainiac thought this up.

_Quote »_There is a formula in Joseph Harralson's "Design of Racing and High Performance Engines" that might be of some help to you. If you're not familiar with the book (ISBN 1-56091-601-X) it is basically a collection of SAE papers.
Here's the excerpt which deals with abnormal valve motion:
"VALVE MOTION- Abnormal inlet and exhaust valve motion is a major obstacle in the development of high-speed engines. The main factors influencing valve motion are:
1. The degree of ridgidity in the valve train.
2. The equivalent inertia weight of the moving parts in the valve train.
For the overhead cam valve mechanisms, we determined the engines speeds at the initiation of abnormal valve motion (such as jumping or bouncing) and plotted these data as a function of the equivalent inertia weight of the valve train.
It can be seen that the abnormal motion begins at a higher engine speed. The equation generally used in valve mechanism design is expressed as:
Ne = 2C SQRT[(FS·K)/(W·(-y))]
where:
Ne = engine revolution speed
FS = valve spring force at maximum lift, kg
K = G(30/pi)^2
W = equivalent inertia weight of valve train, kg
y = maximum negative acceleration, mm/rad^2
g = acceleration of gravity 9.8x10^3, mm/sec^2
C= correction factor
In order to predict the engine speeds at which valve jumping and valve bouncing will begin, we empirically determined the value C as follows:
C = Cj =0.85 (for valve jumping)
C = Cb =1.0 (for valve bouncing)"



It always amazes me that there are people who can think like this, and understand it....then sit down and burn rubber and chug a beer like the rest of us. Completely amazing.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

well that dude sounds pretty hardcore, and smarter than me, so i guess ill have to bow to superior knowledge


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## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (ValveCoverGasket)*

I just want to know why he used "Ne" for engine speed.


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (sold on expense)*

N is always used for rotational speed (and is the standard letter to use in physics) whereas RPM would denote R*P*M or any other letter would denote something else. The e is actually a subscript, which stands for engine.... so Speed of the engine.
and the equation shown above is finding the natural frequency of the valve/valve train. it basically says the valve and components will resonate at a give engine speed, which is bad. the basic equation is frequency=square root (stiffness/mass) or w=sqrt(k/m)


_Modified by Mr. Tickles at 8:30 PM 11-6-2003_


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Mr. Tickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Tickles* »_N is always used for rotational speed (and is the standard letter to use in physics) whereas RPM would denote R*P*M or any other letter would denote something else. The e is actually a subscript, which stands for engine.... so Speed of the engine.
and the equation shown above is finding the natural frequency of the valve/valve train. it basically says the valve and components will resonate at a give engine speed, which is bad. the basic equation is frequency=square root (stiffness/mass) or w=sqrt(k/m)

_Modified by Mr. Tickles at 8:30 PM 11-6-2003_

Which is kinda a benefit of heavy valve trains, the natural frequency is low, so they vibrate at a lower engine speed where there won't be much damage.
Also here is thread I posted awhile ago, I measured all the valve train components http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=200066.
I think the lifters I measured were 1.8 lifters. I have both 2.0 and 1.8 lifters and they are significantly diff. just by looking at them.
Valve "float" doesn't occur as everyone thinks it does. The valvetrain does not "jump" of the crest of the cam, even if it did, that would be like having a longer duration cam, not a bad thing at high rpm. What happens is the backside of the cam lobe on big cams decelerates the valve so fast that it slams home.
All that kinetic energy has to go somewhere, some of it is changed into noise, some into vibration throughout the head, and rest is put back into the valve as mech energy, making the valve bounce (when an intake valve bounces, it is letting out air/fuel mixture during the compression stroke that you worked so hard to get in there). This is why you see race motors run cupped valves, they have more give and absorb some of the energy by deflecting (ultimately the deflection creates heat energy).
This is why you need a stronger spring and lighter valvetrain at high revs and with big lift cams. You want the valve train acceleration to be able to match the cam deceleration so that the valve motion follows the lobe to a smooth touch down as it seats.
I'll look through that INA website and call our INA supplier at work, have them do all the leg work, now if I could only get a minute at work


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## Mr. Tickles (Jul 25, 1999)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (dohc)*

in application and theory, there is no benefit to having a component with a natural frequency anywhere near the operating frequency of your engine. large engines may have a lower natural frequency, as do their valve trains, but if that resonance occurs anywhere in the engines capable operating speed, you'll have an engine that self destructs.
i.e. if a vw engine's operating range is 800 to 8000 rpm, the resonance of every component on the engine and car (if the engine mounts don't dampen or cancel the signal) needs its resonance to be well out of that operating range. If your valve train resonates at 1000 rpm (which is rather low as most are well above the maximum engine speed), that might be a low speed, but irreguardless, your valve train will crap out very fast if you leave the engine to idle.


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Mr. Tickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr. Tickles* »_in application and theory, there is no benefit to having a component with a natural frequency anywhere near the operating frequency of your engine. large engines may have a lower natural frequency, as do their valve trains, but if that resonance occurs anywhere in the engines capable operating speed, you'll have an engine that self destructs.
i.e. if a vw engine's operating range is 800 to 8000 rpm, the resonance of every component on the engine and car (if the engine mounts don't dampen or cancel the signal) needs its resonance to be well out of that operating range. If your valve train resonates at 1000 rpm (which is rather low as most are well above the maximum engine speed), that might be a low speed, but irreguardless, your valve train will crap out very fast if you leave the engine to idle.

Too true, you want to design for no natural resonance in your valvetrain, was just letting a brain fart go


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (dohc)*

More info....
Just heard back from a friend that is doing some measurements for me. He compared the lifters from both a 1.8 head and a 2.0 head. 

Here is what he had to say.-

_Quote »_
The 1.8 lifters weigh 121gm for 2 with some oil 
in/on them; 
the 2.0 lifters weigh 157gm for 2, also with oil in/on them. 
The outer wall of the 1.8 lifters are thinner (0.038" vs 0.096") and the 
interior piston support is a sloped stamped sheet metal piece that 
attaches to the side cylinder vs a machined stepped piece that attaches 
to the top of the lifter. The oiling groove in the cylinder is narrower 
(0.081" vs 0.096") and it doesn't have the tapered inlet for the oil 
feed to the piston, just a hole. The 1.8 lifters are stamped INA on the 
inner sloped piece but there's no discernable part number; I can't see 
any kind of maker or part number marking on the 2.0 lifter. It might be 
interesting to ask ScottnBarb if either of these descriptions match 
their lifters.


The plot thickens http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Duff Man (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

what about something audi?
maybe dohc V8?








see what you can dig up on those and post it.


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (DCI VW)*

I love mysteries as long as I'm not the one that gets screwed in the end!








I will make another trip down to Bowwow since they are open on Saturdays. The OEM lifter they showed me had an INA part number inside of it. I will check to see if they have lifters for a 1.8 as well as a 2.0.
I guess one question to ask then, can you use a 1.8L lifter in a 2.0L head? You would think they would be stronger and lighter as well?
EDIT: I am going to print this section out and take it down with me to see what they say.


_Modified by scottnbarb at 11:31 PM 11-7-2003_


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

I am _ass_uming the heavier one would naturally be stronger, with more metal, and machined pieces instead of stamped.
I wonder if Vw simply switched suppliers, or changed for a reason... hmmm.


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_I am _ass_uming the heavier one would naturally be stronger, with more metal, and machined pieces instead of stamped.
I wonder if Vw simply switched suppliers, or changed for a reason... hmmm.

Well the 1.8 redlines at 7200rpm, were as the 2.0 is 6500rpm? Anyway, maybe they were going for longevity with the heavier lifters?


----------



## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (dohc)*

Here's an interesting piece of the puzzle! Instead of making a trip down to Bowwow I decided to call the parts manager at the local VW dealership. The guy used to race a solid lifter rabbit that he had built, so I trust him just a little.
With these kinds of cars you end up doing business everywhere.








Here is what I asked him. Does the same replacement lifter work for all of these cars?
1.8L 8v '91 Jetta
2.0L 16v '91 Passat
1.8L G60 '91 Corrado
Guess what the answer was?.......................... YES! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
There are a couple of items we can deduce from this.
We know for a fact now that there are different styles and weights of lifters that were made at different times. What we just found out is that if ONE replacement lifter can take the place of all of them then they must have the same dimensions, height & width or they would not fit properly in the different heads.
_2.0 is 6500rpm? Anyway, maybe they were going for longevity with the heavier lifters?
_ 
They might have made this change at the same time that they rebuilt the intake manifold just to sell the cars in N/A. I don't know if that is true or not but it does make sense. What I would be curious about is what other differences are there between the 1.8 & 2.0 head that would change the redlines on them?
EDIT: They don't have any of their replacement lifters in stock otherwise I would go down to weigh it.


_Modified by scottnbarb at 10:29 AM 11-8-2003_


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## Dumitru (Dec 23, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

I believe the redline for the 16v is determined by the maximum linear speed the piston can sustain *for extended periods of time* . the 1.8 reaches 4100 fpm at 7300, the 2.0 reaches the same speed at 6800. I'd say the 16v redline is bottom-end limited.
D

edit: added the bold stuff


_Modified by Dumitru at 5:47 PM 11-8-2003_


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Dumitru)*

Interesting... Someone remind me to weigh one of my lifters in a few weeks when I take my motor apart. They are holding up at an NE(sorry, had to) of 8500 RPM so far.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (lugnuts)*

Update from my friend-
"While looking for some other bits, I found the original followers for my 
1989 1.8l (I changed them when I installed the TT cams) and the 2 extra 
followers that I got from Adirondack 2-3 years ago. Guess what? The 1989 
followers were the same as those in my 2l head. The Adirondack ones were 
also lightweight (119g for two with no oil) but had a different 
underside from the 1987 ones (stamped and perpendicular to the walls 
rather than sloped). There are no manufacturer markings on the lifters 
and they have the sloped oil inlet with the larger feed hole and groove.
I believe the principal reason for the weight difference is that the 
heavy ones have a machined boss holding the hydraulic piston and chamber 
whereas the light ones have a thin stamped piece which is (welded?) in 
place."


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Dumitru)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dumitru* »_I believe the redline for the 16v is determined by the maximum linear speed the piston can sustain *for extended periods of time* . the 1.8 reaches 4100 fpm at 7300, the 2.0 reaches the same speed at 6800. I'd say the 16v redline is bottom-end limited.
D

edit: added the bold stuff

_Modified by Dumitru at 5:47 PM 11-8-2003_

That speed is not very high at all, especially on a VW bottom end. Modern racing engines have pistons speeds in the 26m/s range (5000fpm), and even then it isn't a limitation of the bottom as much as a flow limitation of the head. Anything much above 75m/s air velocity begins to get very turbulent.
I've seen stock VW bottom ends go to 8000rpm (1.8L) without much trouble. Even the guys who rock honda's say VW builds a very strong bottom end, only it's not balanced as well as there's from the factory, thats why they feel like they're gonna grenade at a those kind of speeds. 
Example, B18's have very similar geometry as a VW 1.8(but actually has a smaller rod ratio), but feels like a much shorter stroke smoother engine.
Ok, no more side tracking, lets get back to the subject.


----------



## Dumitru (Dec 23, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (dohc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dohc* »_
That speed is not very high at all, especially on a VW bottom end. Modern *racing* engines have pistons speeds in the 26m/s range (5000fpm), and even then it isn't a limitation of the bottom as much as a flow limitation of the head. Anything much above 75m/s air velocity begins to get very turbulent.
I've seen stock VW bottom ends go to 8000rpm (1.8L) without much trouble. Even the guys who rock honda's say VW builds a very strong bottom end, only it's not balanced as well as there's from the factory, thats why they feel like they're gonna grenade at a those kind of speeds. 
Example, B18's have very similar geometry as a VW 1.8(but actually has a smaller rod ratio), but feels like a much shorter stroke smoother engine.
Ok, no more side tracking, lets get back to the subject.

What you're saying is absolutely true, I was referring to the fact that VW has to put the rev limiter low enough so the engine will survive relatively long time (you know, warranty and all that). It is a known fact that engine life starts to decrease rapidly as speeds go up, over a certain point. I recall a blurb in the TT catalog saying how one of their guys (Collin?) ran a 1.8 8v to 9,000 rpms without failure. Try doing that on a regular basis, at every shift and we'll see how long that motor will last. I'd actually like to try that in *my* GTI once I have a proper head built for it and a replacement block waiting.








On the subject at hand, if all goes well over the winter I'll just skip over all the intermediate stages like the lighter hydro lifters, or stock solids, etc. I'll build my GTI head with 42/35mm valves, full face 35mm solid lifters and a nice cam from Webcams designed to take advantage of that. (288degrees, 0.480" lift) Should be a fun summer








BTW, the 35mm racing solids are lighter than the Alfa lifters or even the factory solids, and needless to say MUCH lighter than any *slushpumper!!!*








Can you tell I like the bold button?


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## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

Other than loosing a few grams, there does not seem to be a good reason to find lighter hydro lifters. 99% of the 16V's have hydro cams that by design do not have an aggresive design. The biggest reason for lighteneing the valve train would be to not have valve float. But valve float can be eliminated by running a stiffer spring. Techtonics, on their original batch of springs used to claim that they were good for 8500 rpm. That was for an 8V motor with a large 42mm intake valve with an 8mm stem. The springs had no problem keeping my valves from floating with a Schrick 276deg cam. I used to shift at 8000 rpm while on the track with oem INA lifters. It's not like you can run a Solid cam with hydro lifters anyways.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Scirocco53)*

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. 
You say to keep the valves from floating to run stiffer springs... but if you have lighter valves, retainers, lifters, you can run less stiff springs for less HP loss.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

Ohh..... and when it appears that VW made available 2 different lifters over the years, one weighing aprox 80grams each and the other kind weighs aprox 60 grams each.... thats a savings of roughly .7lb of weight saved... not by some special part, not by spending a ton of cash. Just by checking to see if you have the heavy ones or the lighter ones.
I know which I am going to run given the choice and apparent ready availability. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

Lighter is always better. The INA lifters are so cheap. I have a digital scale that is accurate to 0.1 grams. If anyone has different lifters that they want me to weigh, I'm game. I keep getting this feeling that whoever weighed the lifters before, may have not known the amount of oil that is in the cavity. I pulled my 92 Transporter 10V head appart not too long ago, and saw a hydro lifter that I have never seen before. It had a small cavity, but weighed more than the INA lifter. I didnt bother soaking the lifter in cleaner, and blowing out the oil with compressed air, but it was way heavier.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Scirocco53)*

Update-
I have found another source for lifters, and uncovered a 'performance' lifter for our engines. They are sourced from a car model available overseas.
Here is what the factory has told me-
"This part is special for high-speed and strongly stressed engines, the
normal weight from the tappet is 69gramm (with oil) and the light weight
tappet has 55 gramm (with oil)."

I am working on obtaining a set for testing and pictures. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dumitru* »_
What you're saying is absolutely true, I was referring to the fact that VW has to put the rev limiter low enough so the engine will survive relatively long time (you know, warranty and all that). It is a known fact that engine life starts to decrease rapidly as speeds go up, over a certain point. I recall a blurb in the TT catalog saying how one of their guys (Collin?) ran a 1.8 8v to 9,000 rpms without failure. Try doing that on a regular basis, at every shift and we'll see how long that motor will last. I'd actually like to try that in *my* GTI once I have a proper head built for it and a replacement block waiting.








On the subject at hand, if all goes well over the winter I'll just skip over all the intermediate stages like the lighter hydro lifters, or stock solids, etc. I'll build my GTI head with 42/35mm valves, full face 35mm solid lifters and a nice cam from Webcams designed to take advantage of that. (288degrees, 0.480" lift) Should be a fun summer








BTW, the 35mm racing solids are lighter than the Alfa lifters or even the factory solids, and needless to say MUCH lighter than any *slushpumper!!!*








Can you tell I like the bold button?










True, our cars were designed for the autobahn, so sustaining high engine speeds for hours on end would warrent relatively low redlines, hence 6800rpm.
But the piston speeds I'm talking about were for modern race cars that race and test all day long. The reason that they can do this is that they aren't at redline constantly, they are only there for a moment before shifting to the next gear.
Also, in an engine study I read, it has been found that even though engine speed does have some effect on engine life, it is minimal. The major benefactor to engine wear is load.

_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Update-
I have found another source for lifters, and uncovered a 'performance' lifter for our engines. They are sourced from a car model available overseas.
Here is what the factory has told me-
"This part is special for high-speed and strongly stressed engines, the
normal weight from the tappet is 69gramm (with oil) and the light weight
tappet has 55 gramm (with oil)."

I am working on obtaining a set for testing and pictures. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Powerdubs, your the man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Let us know how this works out, and where we can source these awesome lifters http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by dohc at 9:22 AM 11-25-2003_


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## TurboRocco (May 18, 2000)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

can the lighter vw lifter withstand a high rpm environment. example: 276 cams, p&p'd and carb's?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Update-
I have found another source for lifters, and uncovered a 'performance' lifter for our engines. They are sourced from a car model available overseas.
Here is what the factory has told me-
"This part is special for high-speed and strongly stressed engines, the
normal weight from the tappet is 69gramm (with oil) and the light weight
tappet has 55 gramm (with oil)."

I am working on obtaining a set for testing and pictures. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









common, out with it. don't be like TT and the other guys selling "High Performance lifters" spill the beens. what's the car model available overseas? 
did you forget what the thread title is?










_Modified by weeblebiker at 6:25 PM 11-25-2003_


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (weeblebiker)*

If you would have read my earlier statements in other threads, I was also against the idea that TT was hiding the make of their lifters and charging a premium.
At no point did I mention or intend to do anything of the sort. Simply, we do not know if these will even work in our engines yet. That is why I am trying to source and test a set. If they work, I will post all info and pics.
The last thing I want to do is to contribute to the already overabundant amount of misinformation floating around on the internet. If they work, it will become public knowledge. If they do not, they will be just a failed experiment that I eat the cost on.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

k. good man.


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## Dumitru (Dec 23, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
At no point did I mention or intend to do anything of the sort. Simply, we do not know if these will even work in our engines yet. That is why I am trying to source and test a set. If they work, I will post all info and pics.









Say what you mean and do what you say Powerdubs! Enough of us have connections overseas to get parts and money to experiment with. Either come out and say the make, model, year and engine of this mistery car or stop pretending you want to share the info! Sharing is a 2 way street, remember?
don't take it personally.


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## the lone dub 85 (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Dumitru)*

ok well a little bit of info for people who have digital scales and want to test them to see how accurate they are for weighing stuff.....

a nickel (as in the coin) weighs exactly 5 grams, so pile on like 20 and see how accurate it is to 100 grams.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (the lone dub 85)*

Bad news....
Just got the final word on the lifters, and since they are a special item apparently I can not get them in small amounts, nor can I even get a sample for testing.
The email I just received states- "The subject lifter is packaged in a minimum quantity of 180 pieces."
Too bad. ...since these only weigh 55gram with oil and are made for high rev, hi performance engines.

Theorecticly I could try to get enough interested people ahead of time, and once I receive the money, I could order a batch, but we would have to have 10 other people besides myself who would be in for the deal.


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Bad news....
Just got the final word on the lifters, and since they are a special item apparently I can not get them in small amounts, nor can I even get a sample for testing.
The email I just received states- "The subject lifter is packaged in a minimum quantity of 180 pieces."
Too bad. ...since these only weigh 55gram with oil and are made for high rev, hi performance engines.
Theorecticly I could try to get enough interested people ahead of time, and once I receive the money, I could order a batch, but we would have to have 10 other people besides myself who would be in for the deal.

Why not try to round up some x-flow, 8V, Audi, 20v(exhaust side only),
12V VR6 (don't know about the 24V's) guys as well as 16Ver's. Would make it easier to get group of ten that's for sure.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*

Powerdubs,
why not say what the make/ model the lifters come from and see if one of our euro brethern can track one down and get the specs or measure one?


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## 00ZERO (Apr 27, 2001)

ok so
TRW Federal Mogul (from an audi 3b engine) = 61g $13
1.8l lifter 121/2 = 60.5g $8
2l lifters 157/2 = 78.5g $8
power dubs performance lifters = 55g (how much per lifter?)
[these numbers are based on weights given in this post and i beleve them to all be right and the prices are estimates.]
now which gives the best weight reduction for the buck? 
unless the numbers are wrong or the preformance lifters are cheap i would say stick with the stock 1.8l 16v lifters. 
Am i wrong in this assumption?
-jonathan


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (00ZERO)*

The file I received is not a list of cars the lifters are _from_,...moreso a file of cars the lifters will _fit_. I am of the belief that they are a special lifter made that will fit these applications. 
If anyone can find a source for these exact lifters outside of having to purchase 180 at a time, I would be happy. Of course the trade off for easy buying _if_ somebody can find a source for these is that we will still be paying someones mark-up, where as if I can get 10 other people to go in with me, we will get them for cost + shipping. (yet unknown) This would be the cheapest option and I doubt they are much more than 6-8 each.
Here is the data for the lifters-
INA F-46516.72 light weight lifter


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Unfortunately, I hate to be the one to tell you that you are wrong.








You imply that constant RPMs negates any effect, but regardless of increase/decrease in RPM, you still have basic physics.
Even at a steady state of RPM, say 7,000 RPM, your valves are opening and closing 116 times a second. Therefore they are changing direction 232 times a second. For every time this happens, it is the job of the cam lobe to push the valve downwards and start it in motion. It is then completely up to the valve spring to slow the valve back down, limit its amount of travel, and stop its motion and then reverse its direction causing it to close again.
At high RPM, and/or fast ramp speeds, a heavier valve for example is going to want to continue on its path opening moreso than a lighter valve. It will take a stiffer spring for control to stop this from happening. Stiffer springs = more resistance, more resistance = power being robbed. So you want the lightest springs possible that will control your valves for your given application (cam design, and RPMs) Put a light spring with a heavy valve at high RPM and the force of the valve opening is greater than the force of the spring trying to close it, and you end up with valves open further and/or longer than they should be. This also can cause the cam to 'come off lobe' while the valve is still 'out floating' so it has no resistance anymore, and when it does finally close, it slams shut at full force and damages the valve and seat. (this is where tuliped valves come from).
So a lighter valvetrain setup can turn higher RPMs without needing stiffer springs. This frees up the hp that would other wise be needed to move the heavier components as well as the stiffer springs.
Want a example you can feel? Put your arm out in front of you, parallel to the floor. Now swing your arm side to side, left to right in front of you. 
Easy enough??
Now hold a 5lb weight in your hand and try it again!
You either just increased the range of motion, or you increased the amount of strength you had to use to change directions each time. Either way, you felt it.
There is no perpetual motion, every time that valve opens and closes, it takes work. We are just lightening that workload....literally. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








But I will agree with you on one statement, it does cost money. No it is not a turbo or supercharger or nitrous. Cost/HP is high comparatively. 
Is it for everyone? No. 
Does it work? You betcha... 
Start looking at almost any performance articles related to an engine, and they are always speaking of finding ways to lighten valvetrain components.

Ok, enough of my early morning babble...I just got out of bed and ended up typing this for 30 minutes. 
Hopefully some more knowledgeable people than me can give you some numbers. That new guy Rick seemed to know his stuff, if he comes back.
I'll try to find documentation online when I have time at work today.









What happens to all the potential engery created when a valve spring is compressed? You speak of simple physics, but overlook the the relationship of potential and kinetic energy. Ever notice how a 16v cam will not keep a valve open with the cam chain and timing belt removed?


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (130_R)*

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but these "lightwieght" lifters were stock in the 9A and 3B engines. Accusations of with holding information are very off the mark and tit for tat. Should people be damned for looking at part numbers?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
What happens to all the potential engery created when a valve spring is compressed? You speak of simple physics, but overlook the the relationship of potential and kinetic energy. Ever notice how a 16v cam will not keep a valve open with the cam chain and timing belt removed?


hmmm
i suppose this brings us back to my incorrect point







that that post was a reply to


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_these "lightwieght" lifters were stock in the 9A and 3B engines.


Blake,
What are you basing this statement on? The Vw part number for stock lifters is 034 109 309 AFAIK.
You can type that number into a search engine and get plenty of responses of links mentioning their use.
Type in the number I gave for these lifters and you get _zero_ matchs. I certainly may be wrong, but if they were stock, wouldn't there be mention of it somewhere??

Also, it is not like I am making this up or read this somewhere online and guessed on the details. I have been speaking directly with INA, and this is what they told me. I even made them specifically weigh the reguler lifters they sell for our application, and these lightweight ones.
Put it this way... we have now had 3 people that I am aware of weigh factory lifters from both the 1.8's and the 2.0's. The light lifters that TT is selling and the lifters that Adirondack sells have both also been weighed. The lighter of the factory ones was still 64-68 grams by everyone, which coincides with the weight of the 'normal' lifters INA weighed for me that they sell. The heavier of the factory ones were mid-80's 
None of the lifters weighed by anyone else whether 1.8, 2.0, TT, Vinces' etc were under 61 grams..... the ones INA say they have are 55 grams w/ oil and 'made for high power, high rev' cars.
As I have already said, I would have liked to have got a sample, or even 16 to test with first, but that is not possible.
At this point however, I will trust the man from INA knows what he is talking about, and use these lifters. That is, unless you can prove otherwise of course???


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_

Blake,
What are you basing this statement on? The Vw part number for stock lifters is 034 109 309 AFAIK.
You can type that number into a search engine and get plenty of responses of links mentioning their use.
Type in the number I gave for these lifters and you get _zero_ matchs. I certainly may be wrong, but if they were stock, wouldn't there be mention of it somewhere??

Also, it is not like I am making this up or read this somewhere online and guessed on the details. I have been speaking directly with INA, and this is what they told me. I even made them specifically weigh the reguler lifters they sell for our application, and these lightweight ones.
Put it this way... we have now had 3 people that I am aware of weigh factory lifters from both the 1.8's and the 2.0's. The light lifters that TT is selling and the lifters that Adirondack sells have both also been weighed. The lighter of the factory ones was still 64-68 grams by everyone, which coincides with the weight of the 'normal' lifters INA weighed for me that they sell. The heavier of the factory ones were mid-80's 
None of the lifters weighed by anyone else whether 1.8, 2.0, TT, Vinces' etc were under 61 grams.....  the ones INA say they have are 55 grams w/ oil and 'made for high power, high rev' cars.
As I have already said, I would have liked to have got a sample, or even 16 to test with first, but that is not possible.
At this point however, I will trust the man from INA knows what he is talking about, and use these lifters. That is, unless you can prove otherwise of course???

















Ran the number through ETKA 6.2, the lightened lifters came back as stock 9A/3B lifters. 
As a rather unusual aside to all this, the lifters I bought from WorldPac two weeks ago are the "lightened" ones which just weighed in at 54.3 grams on my nose candy scale. But the number in the WorldPac database comes back as a Mercedes V6 lifter. So I don't know exactly what is up, but I know these are not "high performance specially designed" lifters.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
Ran the number through ETKA 6.2, the lightened lifters came back as stock 9A/3B lifters.


Could you get me a screenshot of that? My Etka says number unknown.

_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_the lifters I bought from WorldPac two weeks ago are the "lightened" ones which just weighed in at 54.3 grams on my nose candy scale.


How much did they cost, what was WorldPacs part # on them, and most importantly what brand/markings are on the lifters?

We'll get this figured out sooner or later!!


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
Ran the number through ETKA 6.2, the lightened lifters came back as stock 9A/3B lifters. 
As a rather unusual aside to all this, the lifters I bought from WorldPac two weeks ago are the "lightened" ones which just weighed in at 54.3 grams on my nose candy scale. But the number in the WorldPac database comes back as a Mercedes V6 lifter. So I don't know exactly what is up, but I know these are not "high performance specially designed" lifters.

First, where can I get a copy of ETKA?
And second, did the WorldPac lifters come soaked in oil? Or were they dry?


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (dohc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dohc* »_
And second, did the WorldPac lifters come soaked in oil? Or were they dry?

They were dry.


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## 00ZERO (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (130_R)*

where does everyone get ETKA because i would realy like a copy!


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (00ZERO)*

I got a copy of the euro ETKA off of Egay. 

Fuel for the fire- The set of lifters I got from World Pac were pre-soaked in oil and came in 2 packs of 8. I'll try to remember to look at them tomorrow when I'm at work (still in my box, waitin' for the machine shop







).

Garth


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (g60vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60vw* »_IFuel for the fire- The set of lifters I got from World Pac were pre-soaked in oil and came in 2 packs of 8. 

mine too


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (ValveCoverGasket)*

Ok I checked them and they are made by INA. Here's the numbers-
034 109 309 AD 
TSTH F-46516.30
001-776-991
420-0022-000
The label on the package was all in german so I wasn't exacty sure which was the actual part # and what were stuff like batch #s or what. I'll try to find a way to weigh one or even all and average it.
Garth


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (g60vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60vw* »_I got a copy of the euro ETKA off of Egay. 

Fuel for the fire- The set of lifters I got from World Pac were pre-soaked in oil and came in 2 packs of 8. I'll try to remember to look at them tomorrow when I'm at work (still in my box, waitin' for the machine shop







).

Garth

Wierd, but not all that surprising! The reason mine were dry was because I bought Mercedes lifters, they said the VW ones come soaked in oil. I am throughly convinced now that trying to figure out what is for what is just a crap shoot.


----------



## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (00ZERO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *00ZERO* »_where does everyone get ETKA because i would realy like a copy!

Unless you know someone that works at a dealership that can teach you how to use it, there is really no reason in owning a copy.


----------



## optikNurve (Oct 5, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (130_R)*

That's like saying- unless you know someone at Microsoft, you'd better not use Windows. [Or Linus and Linux]


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (optikNurve)*

The OEM part number for 1.8L lifters and 2.0L lifters is listed as the same number in almost every parts book/computer I have looked in. 
PowerDubs: Are your friends pulling these lifters out of stock heads? Or are they getting them from the dealer.
The worldpac issue is interesting. I looked up the 35mm Mercedez lifter on worldpac and saw that it had the same picture as the VW 35mm lifter. Other than the mercedez part number the pictures were the same. 
The problem here isnt where to get the lighter lifters however..... Federal Mogul, ITM, and others all re-label other manufacture's parts with their own label. There is really know way to be gaurunteed receiving the exact same part.







Worldpac goes with who knows who and they change suppliers often. OEM parts suppliers can also move around. Unless there is a repeatable source for these parts, then we are kinda at a loss.
However!!!!!!!!!!!!
1) PowerDubs: we need 192 lifters from that place to get 12 sets. Can you find out the price per lifter if you were going to order 192????? if its 10 per lifter Ill buy a set... cant go much over $160 though.
2) PROVIDE me with a list of all the part numbers of all the lifters you want compared. I just so happen to work at an autoparts store and I also deal with worldpac, OEM VW parts suppliers, Federal Mogul, ITM, lots of places. I will do a completely scientific comparison of all the lifters!!!! This means brake cleaned, all of the oil blown out with an air compressor, completely dry, and I will try to compare at least 2-3 lifters from each source for repeatable results on a .001 gram scale. I can simply stock the lifters at the autoparts store or return them after measuring them. 
3) I want the Mercedez numbers as well. So *IM* me the part numbers, suppliers, application, and any other details. Once I get a list I will post it and I will get to work. You can post them if you want, but this post is already mega long!



_Modified by CrackerX at 9:10 AM 12-3-2003_


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (CrackerX)*

Which year and model Mercedes lifters are we talking about?


----------



## tnesh (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (PowerDubs)*

why spend money on lightened lifters??


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (tnesh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tnesh* »_why spend money on lightened lifters??

read through the first 2 pages of this thread again


----------



## tnesh (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_
read through the first 2 pages of this thread again

iv read it,,.. just personal i guess.. its a simple 16v motor...id rather put the money somewhere else is all.. but happy motoring.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (tnesh)*

Would I go out of my way, or spend a ton of cash on them...nah....

But since I will be replacing them anyway when I install my new schricks...it makes sense. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GTIMan82 (Jul 8, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Scirocco53)*

QUOTE=Scirocco53]Which year and model Mercedes lifters are we talking about?[/QUOTE]

I dont know, thought someone mentioned somthing about some mercedez v6 lifters somewhere.... I know there are definitly mercedez with 35mm lifters, but i dont remember year and app. Someone mentioned them on a previous lightned lifter topic.


_Modified by CrackerX at 10:34 AM 12-5-2003_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (PowerDubs)*

Hey Josh, I just found this post thanks to your link in my post about the two different 'factory' styles of lifter. Based on your friend's measurement of the 2 different styles and your description, it seems that the one in my post indicated with the arrow would be the 2.0 version while the other would be 1.8? 
I picked a couple up just now and it honestly does seem like the ones which I believe are from the 1.8 (no extra 'ring' underneath, sloped sides) are significantly lighter than the other ones. It would be interesting to see if these ones are still available, never mind "lightweight" ones. A full set of these working in a 1.8 head on a 2.0 block might allow a bit more revvability.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (Mr Black)*

Bump to keep this topic going. I've been scanning online parts stores to see what they offer for lifters, a number of them have PICTURES of the old style but that's obviously no guarantee that those are the ones in stock. 
Also of note, most places listed the part number as 034 109 309 AD but I also saw 034 109 309 N (I think this was at Rapid Parts but I'm not sure). Curious about what this means too. 



_Modified by Mr Black at 4:22 AM 12-8-2003_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Update from my friend-
"The Adirondack ones were also lightweight (119g for two with no oil) but had a different underside from the 1987 ones (stamped and perpendicular to the walls 
rather than sloped). There are no manufacturer markings on the lifters 
and they have the sloped oil inlet with the larger feed hole and groove.


These sound an awful lot like the "lightweight" lifters sold by qualityvwparts.com, based on the photos provided on their web page (the lighter one is on the right):








That would be kinda nifty if there was a reliable way to get these still, especially if qualityvwparts.com is a shifty operation as PowerDubs suggests.........or am I reading things wrong ?

_Modified by Mr Black at 1:41 AM 12-10-2003_


_Modified by Mr Black at 1:42 AM 12-10-2003_


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Mr Black)*

well, i just want a set of light solid lifters from some stock shelf at a cheap price


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (OhioBenz)*

I just picked up a set of 8 of the lighter OEM lifters (the ones with INA in the above pic). I guess the style you get depends where you go (also I bet these were sitting on the shelf since the late 80's)


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (g60vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60vw* »_Ok I checked them and they are made by INA. Here's the numbers-
034 109 309 AD 


That's a standard ABF 16v part.


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Mr Black)*

With regard to the post above, I decided to head out to my workshop and tear apart an ABF engine, just to see what they come with...
The ABF lifter is listed in ETKA as 034 109 309 AD ...which incidentally is the ame as a VR6 lifter.
These are photos of the ABF lifters:
















There are no markings at all on the standard ABF lifters.
The ABF lifters look like neither of the lifters in this photo:








Next,
I had a look at what I thought were a set of ABF lifters...I'd bought them for the re-build of my re-worked ABF head...but upon checking the part numbers it seems I have possibly got the wrong lifters!
I have bought these from VW to fit an ABF...but I've been supplied with lifters under the part number 050 109 309 H ...which appear to be from a 1.6 8v amongst others!
















Now these 'wrong' lifters are marked:
INA 46516 72
...as well as the VAG part number of 050 109 309 H
Can anyone have a look at an INA list and see what they are supposed to fit?
Anyway...
The 'mystery' INA lifters I have are the same height and diameter as the correct ABF lifters...the plunger in the middle is the same size, the oil cut out is the same size...but the oil drilling is slightly different - as shoewn in the photos.
The interesting thing is that the 'mystery 8v' lifters weigh much less;
ABF lifter weighs 80g
The 8v 'mystery' lifter weight 60g
(both measured on my none to accurate kitchen scales)

So the question is...am I brave enough to run them in my 16v engine? 
What do you guys think?




_Modified by Ess Three at 4:02 PM 12-13-2003_


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
INA F-46516.72 light weight lifter

PowerDubs,
Are you certain these 'lightweight' lifters will fit and work?...or as certain as you can be?
These are the exact lifters I have in front of me! INA F 46516.72
(I missed the decimal point in my previous thread...sorry about that!)


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (Ess Three)*

This has got me puzzled...so I did some more work on it!!
I also promise not to post again today..









The '8v lifter I have here that goes under the part number of :
050 109 309 H
was becomming a pain to me...
It's used in VW 1.4 & 1.6 8v engines, 2.0 8v engines, 1.9 diesel engines and the Audi V6s...
Then I remembered that I bought my lifters from the local SEAT garage...not the local VW garage...
So, I checked SEAT ETKA!!
The lightweight lifter I have that weighs 60g ish...is used in a SEAT Ibiza Cupra Sport 2.0 16v - this car uses the VW AFF 2.0 16v...but runs lighter lifters!!...a car I used to own!
The part number is correct for the ABF engine on the SEAT ETKA system...

So, 
F-46516.72 is the INA number
050 109 309 H is the VAG number
It weighs approx 60g full of oil (standard was just a shade over 80g)
It's from a SEAT Ibiza Cupra Sport 16v...but also used in VW 8v engines as listed above...
Now, assuming these are the said same lifters as some people are unsure about...I'm happy as I've got a set already!!


_Modified by Ess Three at 4:49 PM 12-13-2003_


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (Ess Three)*

More info for anyone who's interested:
I weighed the standard VW ABF lifters and the SEAT ABF lifters today on a set of accurate calibrated scapes..
VW ABF lifters = 71.2g oiled each
SEAT ABF lifters = 50.8g oiled each


----------



## 00ZERO (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (Ess Three)*

i think we have a winner!
how much are the seat abf lifter from the dealer with the 8v part number?
-jonathan


_Modified by 00ZERO at 12:20 AM 12-19-2003_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (00ZERO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *00ZERO* »_i think we have a winner!
how much are the seat abf lifter from the dealer with the 8v part number?
-_Modified by 00ZERO at 12:20 AM 12-19-2003_

And, are we sure we can get them in North America? If the standard lifter for an ABA motor is the heavier one, then how are we going to be able to get the lighter one? 
Ess Three, _which_ 2.0 VW motor are you referring to that has these lighter lifters? The AEG perhaps (G4/J4/Beetle motor)?


----------



## 00ZERO (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

the light abf lifter is the same lifter in the VW 1.4 & 1.6 8v engines, 2.0 8v engines, 1.9 diesel engines and the Audi V6s under the vag number 050 109 309 H and weights 50.8g. 
i think i understood this correctly.
i need to go to the dealer tomorrow so i will check the price and availability!
-jonathan


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (00ZERO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *00ZERO* »_
how much are the seat abf lifter from the dealer with the 8v part number?


The SEAT lifters are frighteningly expensive over here! Mine were £15.95 + 17.5% tax...so £18.74 each - about $30 each!
Parts are bloody expensive over here!


_Quote »_
the light abf lifter is the same lifter in the VW 1.4 & 1.6 8v engines, 2.0 8v engines, 1.9 diesel engines and the Audi V6s under the vag number 050 109 309 H and weights 50.8g. 


Let me make sure I get this straight...
The original part number for a VW ABF engine is 034 109 309 AD ...and these lifters are the same as used in VR6 engines - at least they are over here!
The lightweight lifter is listed under 050 109 309 H.
It is the SEAT part number for the SEAT ABF lifters in their ABF engines...and according to ETKA it's used in VW 1.4 8v, 1.6 8v, 2.0 8v and 1.9 diesel engines in Mk3 Golfs in Europe / UK....
The same part number is also listed for the Audi V6s...
They are also used in the Audi S3!
Note,
European / UK Mk3s never got the crossflow 2.0 8v engines...only the non-crossflow.
I'd be more specific with engine codes but I don't have them to hand as I'm at work at the moment.

The SEAT lifters have all the VAG markings on them - SEAT, Skoda, VW, Audi:
















So, I can only assume that ordering the same part number from any of the four brands will result in the same part being supplied - in this case the lightweight lifters under part number 050 109 309 H

This also means, that these lifters can be used in VR6 engines to lighten the valve train somewhat...I'll be fitting a set into my VR6 as I build it.

_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
And, are we sure we can get them in North America? If the standard lifter for an ABA motor is the heavier one, then how are we going to be able to get the lighter one? 


This I do not know as I don't have a copy of the NA ETKA.
If you want, I can look when I've finished this nightshift and note down as many engine codes as I can that use the lightweight lifter.
I'll also check to see if the TT uses the same lifter as the S3 (I'll bet it does...I never checked as I don't have a TT..only an S3!) as if all else fails you can get them in NA through Audi....if you are prepared to pay!


_Quote »_
Ess Three, _which_ 2.0 VW motor are you referring to that has these lighter lifters? The AEG perhaps (G4/J4/Beetle motor)? 


From memory...the Mk3 2.0 non crossflow European / UK engine...can't remember the engine code, despite owning one years ago.
Someone must have a copy of NA ETKA to hand?
Run the 050 109 309 H part number in the ATP section and scan all VW and Audi...it should give you the complete list from there...if all ense fails I'll put money on them being used in the 225 TT.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Ess Three)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ess Three* »_
From memory...the Mk3 2.0 non crossflow European / UK engine...can't remember the engine code, despite owning one years ago.


Never heard of this beast.......is this just a punched-out version of the 1781cc non-crossflow motor? The 1781 (aka "the 1.8") is the bread-and-butter foundation of VW Mk2's in North America. I'd be curious to hear more about this 2.0 from the same family.


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
Never heard of this beast.......is this just a punched-out version of the 1781cc non-crossflow motor? The 1781 (aka "the 1.8") is the bread-and-butter foundation of VW Mk2's in North America. I'd be curious to hear more about this 2.0 from the same family. 

Similar...
I can't honestly remember too much about it, only that it wasn't that great! I really only used the GTI when I wasn't out on my Fireblade!
Basically it was a tall block version of the old 1.8...10% larger in size but only a few BHP more in power with a few more lb-ft's of torque...came with an O2O 'box, not the O2A of the 16v / VR6.
I think they used to have Bosch Motronic...but it may have been Digifant of some type. The later cars uses the SIMOS management system...all 2.0 8vs had a cat.
Can't remember the engine code...
IIRC, we in the UK only got a 2.0 8v non crossflow in the late Mk4 Golfs and in the Beetle.


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (00ZERO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *00ZERO* »_the light abf lifter is the same lifter in the VW 1.4 & 1.6 8v engines, 2.0 8v engines, 1.9 diesel engines and the Audi V6s under the vag number 050 109 309 H and weights 50.8g. 


According to Euro ETKA, the 050 109 309 H part is used in the following engines, some of which must be available in NA:
Mk4 Golf & Bora / Beetle (2002)
2.0 8v Petrol: AEG, AQY, AZG, AZJ, BEJ, APK, AXH
1.9 8v Diesel: ALH, AQM, AGR, AHF, ASV (and in the Audi 1.9 Diesels)
Mk3 Golf & Vento (1996)
1.6 & 2.0 8v Petrol: AEP, AEK, AFT, ADZ, AAM, ADY, AGG, ACC
Also, Audi 12v V6 petrol engines (2.4 & 2.6)
I said yesterday that they were the same lifters as used in the S3...this is NOT the case! I miss-rerad and wronglr remembered ETKA.
These were the main engines these lifters are used in...I didn't bother listing the 1.4 and some of the 1.6 engines as I don't think you even get them.
Good luck!


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Ess Three)*

Excellent! We get the AEG in the Mk4's, so that would be the ticket! Too late for me, as I already bought a full set of the 'medium' (61g dry) weight lifters, but more power to those who want to get the 'ultra-lights'.
Actually, while you're at it, how about verifying if the valve springs for the AEG etc. are less stiff than the ones used in ABA, 9A and PL/KR engines? That might work nicely with the ultra-light lifters to allow some serious high-rev ability.


_Modified by Mr Black at 9:36 PM 12-20-2003_


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_Excellent! We get the AEG in the Mk4's, so that would be the ticket! Too late for me, as I already bought a full set of the 'medium' (61g dry) weight lifters, but more power to those who want to get the 'ultra-lights'.


It would probably be prudent to buy a single lifter under that part number to verify that the part numbers and parts used are the same from Europe to NA.
I would expect so...but best to check.


_Quote »_
Actually, while you're at it, how about verifying if the valve springs for the AEG etc. are less stiff than the ones used in ABA, 9A and PL/KR engines? That might work nicely with the ultra-light lifters to allow some serious high-rev ability.


Hmm...don't know how to verify that...the part numbers won't give any info on spring rates.
All I can say with certainty is that ABF valve springs are the same as KR...for both SEAT applications and VW applications...so SEAT use lighter lifters but the same poundage of valve springs.
The ABF spring retainers are the same as VR6.
I have no idea about the 2.0 8v engines...


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (Ess Three)*

Did anybody tried ordering these lifters - 050 109 309H - ?
Where did you get the best price from?
I called the dealer and they quoted me 56.27 CAD each







....I can get solid lifters that are less expensive than this!!


----------



## sold on expense (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*

050 109 309H 
$14.19 from Taylor Automotive (www.taylorautomotive.com)
$16.86 from Impex (www.impexfap.com)


----------



## Dumitru (Dec 23, 2002)

*Re: (sold on expense)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sold on expense* »_050 109 309H 
$14.19 from Taylor Automotive (www.taylorautomotive.com)
$16.86 from Impex (www.impexfap.com)


A lot of these parts shops will slip you any old lifter known to fit, ultra-light or no, Caveat Emptor indeed.


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (Dumitru)*

Do any of you know of a reputable source to get the exact part?


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*

Can't you get them from VW?
Surely running the paert number in NA Etka will list the engines they are used in, then order from VW.
This may be the best way to be assured of getting the correct lightweight lifters.


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (Ess Three)*

My local VW dealer quoted me 56 CAD = 42 USD = 34 EUR...That's really a lot more than I was thinking to pay for hydro lifters


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MaestroG60* »_Do any of you know of a reputable source to get the exact part?


look it up by motor on carmadillo.com 
their mk3/mk4 selection is semi limited but i think theyve got most of the selection online, at least as far as engine parts go. worth a shot tho.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

Just got off the phone with INA- Germany. Did not want to post again unless I was able to get these. At this point, I am 98% sure I can get them.
Up until now, I have spoken with both INA USA, and INA Germany, as well as 2 different distributors.
The general summary so far is up until this point is that INA has refused to sell/ship them to USA. They have said they were not allowed in this market.
After talking to a bunch of people, I think I may have just spoke to the right person to get through the roadblocks.
His statement was along the lines of - "I understand, I have a spitfire in my garage"
The best person to talk to to help out an enthusiest is another enthsuiest. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
He said he will call the people he needs to call, to OK it to them to ship to my local distributor for me. He said there may still be a minimum quantity (most likely 180 pieces) but that he will try his best to get around that somehow.
I'll keep you posted...


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

I got them through my local part place...they ordered them from Altrom Group (distributor).
They are INA and the part #'s match.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*

Yes, notice I said they were not allowed to ship to USA. Canada must be different.
How much were they for you in USD??
Got pics? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

There are the same as the pics in the previous page.
They were 14$ CAD each (when I bought 16) or 10.5 US.



_Modified by MaestroG60 at 12:00 AM 2-11-2004_


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MaestroG60* »_There are the same as the pics in the previous page.
They were 14$ CAD each (when I bought 16) or 10.5 US.
I guess I could make a group buy if your all interested...










if I cannot source them locally, I will take you up on that offer.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Id make no profit


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*

I don't know if this has been covered, but the lightweight lifters are from the late production ABA motors and all the AEG motors. 

edited: "Welcome to last year" I actually read the posts on the last page.










_Modified by Scirocco53 at 9:25 PM 2-11-2004_


----------



## JETTA2.0GT (Jan 28, 2002)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

I checked the lifters on the ABF i have (from a -97 Seat Ibiza Cupra) and they are INA 46516 72 but they haven't got any vw nr on them.


----------



## Eject (Aug 14, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

I work at a VW Audi dealership in Toronto.
I'll check out the part numbers listed and pricing 
I'll even contact some of our aftermarket suppliers.


----------



## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (Eject)*

im bringing this back from the dead here, but after reading all 4 pages of this thread - i am now wondering if anyone has purchased the ABA lifters to verify that they match the pictures we have seen?


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (mk2dubbin)*

yes, look at my post


----------



## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (MaestroG60)*

i was wondering more about the NA connections having the same product as the Europe/CAN connections for them.
if they are the same down here for roughly the same price, then it would save people on shipping them down from canada thru you.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*

So the part number you have is 050 109 309 H then?


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

yes...If you really want some I could check for prices...Depends on how many lifters I would have to purchase....The more people I get the cheaper it gets


_Modified by MaestroG60 at 1:30 PM 3-9-2004_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (MaestroG60)*

I'm rebuilding my engine so yes, I would want some.
I'd be up for a GB if enough people were interested.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

I'm in, whats the price?


----------



## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

im interested. mine tick constantly anymore.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

If anyone is interested, I can get those lightweight lifters to you guys at $9 each.


----------



## MaestroG60 (Nov 23, 2001)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

I can't beat that price


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

I'd be up for that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

$9 is a good deal. best i found around here is like $16. i dont think shipping from canada would even come close to $16 each.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (mk2dubbin)*

I.M. sent


----------



## red rabbit racer (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

Scirocco53 - I'm interested in a set at that price!


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (red rabbit racer)*

Cool Graham, shoot me an e-mail.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

I have 2 sets left at that price.


----------



## MBRACKLIFFE (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

Just recieved my set of lifters yesterday and I weighed them after wiping off as much oil as I could. They weighed 49.6 grams.... excellent... I will post more once my 16v swap iscomplete and running to let you kinow what I think.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (MBRACKLIFFE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MBRACKLIFFE* »_They weighed 49.6 grams.... 


Yea....that sounds about right, since the INA factory rep quoted me 55 grams each _w/_ oil.

Mine are sitting on the counter, waiting to be installed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Guys, I promise that I will weigh the lifters on my scale, and post results with pictures.


----------



## MBRACKLIFFE (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

Scirocco53: They weigh 49.6 grams each and that is on a good digital scale and as dry as I could get them. Thanks for getting them too me by the way...








Ooops I forgot I posted the weight already.. hehe..


_Modified by MBRACKLIFFE at 5:47 PM 4-1-2004_


----------



## GoldFishBowl (Apr 13, 2004)

Im new to the board but read this entire thread...AWESOME! I am interested in purchasing 24 of them @ $9 if I can get that. I would have sent email but its hidden and I didnt see an email button.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (GoldFishBowl)*

I.M. sent


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

Scirocco53,
Do you plan on having these lifters for a while or was it a one time bulk buy that you are getting rid of. Just asking because I don't need lifters now, but I probably will in the future.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

My supplier carries the lifters all the time. I got a break on 8 sets, so I offered fellow Vortexers them at $9 each. I am not looking to get rich off of VW enthusiasts. I know that there are a lot of companies that have high overhead, and profit margins that they need to maintain, and are not in a posission to offer low prices on parts. There were guys that helped me out when I was trying to stretch every dollar as far as it could go. I guess this is sort of a way for me to do the same.


----------



## GoldFishBowl (Apr 13, 2004)

I weighed a stock lifter at 63 grams dry. 70 grams filled with water which means they hold 7 cubic centimeters. I had to boil the lifter, and then freeze it to allow the hydraulic portion to manually pump up, as they are stiffer than I could possibly compress them with even a hammer 
If i can get 25 of them, I would be willing to do the same for the lighter ones and see what their volume is internally. My scale goes to .1 gram as well and I didnt round those numbers.
I guess I should add the these were INA 034 109 309AD purchased for a 93 Passat 16V. 


_Modified by GoldFishBowl at 5:11 AM 4-14-2004_


----------



## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

Glad to hear. Thanks!

_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco53* »_My supplier carries the lifters all the time. I got a break on 8 sets, so I offered fellow Vortexers them at $9 each. I am not looking to get rich off of VW enthusiasts. I know that there are a lot of companies that have high overhead, and profit margins that they need to maintain, and are not in a posission to offer low prices on parts. There were guys that helped me out when I was trying to stretch every dollar as far as it could go. I guess this is sort of a way for me to do the same.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re:*

I just recieved 96 of these in stock. Still $9/ea


----------



## 1SWTG60 (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (PowerDubs)*

after reading all of this i have come to the conclusion that although it may come at a high cost, a weight savings (even if it is a few grams per) is a great asset in the valvetrain. If this is so what lifter , spring, retainer and valve combos have been tested and found to be bullet proof, even if their is a high price tag with it. What companies are a safe bet. Also, i am going forced induction and i have heard that unless you are revving to 8k then oem springs are enough, do u guys agree, and if so, do you reccomend a spring that is lighter with the same tensile strength. Any valvetrain help would be appreciated.


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (1SWTG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1SWTG60* »_after reading all of this i have come to the conclusion that although it may come at a high cost, a weight savings (even if it is a few grams per) is a great asset in the valvetrain. 


That's my thinking...


_Quote »_
If this is so what lifter , spring, retainer and valve combos have been tested and found to be bullet proof, even if their is a high price tag with it. What companies are a safe bet. Also, i am going forced induction and i have heard that unless you are revving to 8k then oem springs are enough, do u guys agree, and if so, do you reccomend a spring that is lighter with the same tensile strength. Any valvetrain help would be appreciated.









I have settled on the following on my ABF:
Lightweight lifters (saved 21.5g per lifter)
Titanium retainers (saved 10g per retainer) - actually, ABR retainers are the same as VR6 retainers.
Standard valves (Reworked)
Standard, new, valve springs.
Schrick 268 inlet with standard ABF exhaust cam
This is a fine set up for the 7500/7600 RPM that I'm running, and causes far less stress on the valvetrain than standard lifters / retainers and heavy duty springs.


----------



## MBRACKLIFFE (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (Ess Three)*

I have been running my lifters for about 3500 miles and get a slight clamor at start up with these lifters. Not like a dead lifter tick but I can definitly hear them while they pump up and then it gets alot quieter.
I am running 10-40 oil and was wondering if anyone else is getting noise and what weight oil you are running. My motor is rebuilt so I am trying to run a lighter oil for a little while. A heavier oil will probrably quiet them down completely. Just wondering how everyone else who bought them made out.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (MBRACKLIFFE)*

Our engines were designed for 20/50... 10/40 is not unusual to have noisy lifters.


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (MBRACKLIFFE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MBRACKLIFFE* »_ Just wondering how everyone else who bought them made out.

I have no additional noise on my ABF...but there agian, they are fitted as standard on SEAT ABFs!
The engine revs up far quicker now too..
I'm happy.


----------



## wld101turkey (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: 16V hydraulic lifter weights (Ess Three)*

all the 050 lifters are the same ( if made by the same mfg). then it just boils down to country made
and qty of the set. the 050109309J is the oe# for the german ones. the 050109309HBR are the same but the H is for hydrualic instead of the J and the br is for made in brazil, I cant asign the same part number to mutliple items on the website.
the german made ones are here in a set of 16
http://fourseasontuning.com/?product=2
the best deal are these made by the same co in their brazilian plant (
i have sold over 300 with no issues for the 16V and VR6)
http://fourseasontuning.com/?product=162
Hope this clears it up, the main part number is the same, just the
last letter and country of origin have been added.



_Modified by wld101turkey at 10:06 PM 4-1-2006_


----------



## zero666cool (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco53* »_If anyone is interested, I can get those lightweight lifters to you guys at $9 each.

I was wondering whether I can use these lifters on a 12v VR6 or not? If so, I want 12 of those too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (zero666cool)*

IM sent


----------



## GoldFishBowl (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*

Few things I wanted to share.
I have been running the lifters from scirocco53 for about 5k miles now, and a friend of mine has been running the 63 gram "stock" lifters. He is getting quite a bit more lifter tick than I am. No perf difference I can share cause we have different mods and no dyno comparisons
Also, I found a place that sells 050 109 309 H and 050 109 309 HBR lifters. I ordered 1 of each, with the H being 13 bucks and the HBR being 7.56. Just got them today and noticed they look identical, unless side by side and the HBR has a little less material on the face where the cam lobes contact. Not sure what the deal is with that but I hope it doesnt matter since its barely noticable. Anyway, both have the same INA F-46516.72 inside the bucket, but the H has LM and the HBR has TU next to the INA. The H weighs 50 grams empty and the HBR weighs 48.3 grams. 
Anyone know what the LM and TU mean, and what the application difference is between part numbers despite identical INA numbers?
Oh, and neither has the notched oil hole or the cut out bucket area like the lifters I am running now.


_Modified by GoldFishBowl at 1:44 AM 12-21-2004_


----------



## Richago (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: (GoldFishBowl)*

OK, time to ressurect this thread.

_Quote, originally posted by *GoldFishBowl* »_
...I found a place that sells 050 109 309 H and 050 109 309 HBR lifters... Anyone know what the LM and TU mean, and what the application difference is between part numbers despite identical INA numbers?

Bildon motorsports sells 050 109 309 for $7.59 each. I e-mailed them re: p/n suffix, but got no reply. http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6 I guess I'll give them a call on Monday. Has anyone bought their lifters there? It seems too easy to be true.
edit: Wow, http://fourseasontuning.com has the "HBR" version, 12 for $97. I guess they're all over the place now!
Nathan


_Modified by Richago at 9:48 PM 3-12-2005_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Richago)*

I was at my VW parts place today.......according to them, the 050 109 309 H (which we all now know to be the 'lightweight' factory lifter) is for "96 and up Mk3", whereas Mk4 is supposed to be 058 109 309 E. Are these the same part, with a superceded number, or are these "E" lifters different? Anyone?


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

I just called my dealer - they can order - $43.50 Each - EACH - x16 =$700.00 Smokin Crack


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (rivethead)*

They are still $9 each if you get them from me.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (rivethead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rivethead* »_I just called my dealer - they can order - $43.50 Each - EACH - x16 =$700.00 Smokin Crack

No kidding........it's as if VW does NOT ever want people to buy lifters








Once again, Scirocco53 is da man


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Order a set tomorrow


----------



## Fahrvergnugen (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
No kidding........it's as if VW does NOT ever want people to buy lifters










The following comments are not necessarily towards Mr. Black. I work at a dealership, and I have dealt with angry customers so often that I feel I should write this, in the effort to educate those that are interested, unlike those that come to my counter with a broken car...

[tangent/rant]
Dealer prices have always been higher than aftermarket. You have more hands those parts go through in the dealership system than you do aftermarket... If dealerships were not higher, then there would be little reason for the aftermarket to come into existence. Manufacturers charge more money on parts than they do on their cars. If you built a car with parts you could buy over the counter, you would spend at least five times as much money than if you just bought the car whole when new. However, there is infinitely more time and money invested in buidling and keeping an inventory with which to service a car... Logistics of the parts from foreing lands, packaging, handling, following up on supercessions, on and on ad infinitum...
Don't forget that dealers are ultimately responsible for the prices they ask. Not every dealership asks the manufacturer's list price. If they did, that would be considered price-fixing, and as I understand it, that is illegal...[/tangent/rant]
Apologies for straying of topic, but I could not pass up the opportunity...
Cheers,
David


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (fahrvegnugen)*

Be that all as it may, VW's prices often seem to be so far off into the stratosphere as to simply not be realistic. It's often the owners of the older cars that get penalized for the storage of old parts, etc, but in this case here we have a current hydraulic lifter which is twice the price of the previous model, which ITSELF is twice the price of the one before that. 
These new lifters can't possibly be so advanced and hard to manufacture that they warrant this doubling of price. Further, I don't believe they cost nearly that much going into the car in the factory- I believe it's gouging of the highest order. Car companies have a huge amount of clout in terms of forcing suppliers to tailor their prices, so I don't believe that some of these wacky prices actually reflect the cost from the supplier.
The proof is in the pudding- from the right place(s), you can get these for $9US. Dealer list is $40 or so. You tell me if that smells right........


----------



## Fahrvergnugen (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_ Further, I don't believe they cost nearly that much going into the car in the factory- I believe it's gouging of the highest order. Car companies have a huge amount of clout in terms of forcing suppliers to tailor their prices, so I don't believe that some of these wacky prices actually reflect the cost from the supplier.
The proof is in the pudding- from the right place(s), you can get these for $9US. Dealer list is $40 or so. You tell me if that smells right........









I believe either you have taken offense to my post and therefore did not really understand what I was trying to say, or I did not explain myself too well, or perhaps even a combination of both. I'll try again...








I did not say the cost of the lifters, nor anything else is as much as when you buy it on a part-by-part basis at the dealer. In fact, I said it was the opposite. I believe there are two forces at work here, the logistics of sending this part from its original manufacturer in any of 40 different countries, the packaging, the handling at no less that two different warehouses once it reaches the continental US, and then to your dealership. You did read the part where I mentioned they can charge whatever they like, didn't you?







We charge $40 for each of those, but VWs recommended price is actually $34.08... Is it fair? No. Is it capitalism? Yes. VW is not the only company to do this, you should know... I believe it is the only thing that keeps a number of companies functioning (especially Kia--*cheap* cars *really expensive* parts...). Do I like it? Fok no. Do I make commission off my sales? Hell no. Do I get tired of explaining it? I think you already know that answer...








Don't ask me what it smells like, I have a very acute sense of smell. But I also know that all the flowers on the earth won't change how this system works...
Hopefully this is food for thought. I am now done serving...


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (fahrvegnugen)*

I will throw my 2 cents in. The cost is there for shipping, cost of money, etc.. Maybe even the cost of money and warehouse space over time if they have allready purchased the product and have it sitting somewhere. The difference is what is the actual cost versus profit that VW is looking for? If someone can get the exact same part for $9 without the volume purchasing power that a manufactorer has nor the infrastructure to ship at a lower cost - Even if you calculate everything else the difference between $9 and $34 is a bit out of hand. But the price my local dealer is charging is crazy. But that is the choice they have made. They have lost a sale. As a former retailer I would not pass up the opportunity to make 10-15 points on a purchase even if it is a special order - not the 30+ points of margin that my dealer is after. I guess it is what the market will bear. I live in one of the fastest growing and affluent areas in the country. Everyone thinks they can charge more. Just like the guy that quoted my neighbor $45,000 (lowest price) to finish off a basement with bedroom, bathroom and one large room - and she has to wait 3 months.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (fahrvegnugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fahrvegnugen* »_
I believe either you have taken offense to my post and therefore did not really understand what I was trying to say, or I did not explain myself too well, or perhaps even a combination of both. I'll try again...










No offense taken at all, and no miscomprehension or lack of clarity. I simply maintain that all the reasons you have listed are not adequate justification for the disparity in VW's parts pricing (and probably other manuf's too). When companies throw their hands up and say "hey, that's the best we can do, sorry", they tend not to last too long, or will lose key segments of their businesses.


----------



## Fahrvergnugen (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Perhaps, but I don't think either of us could have a complete idea of those costs unless we were directly involved... However, I am done defending VW. They are a German company, and as such, "Zey know whaht zey need to do, und vee do not, ja... Here me know, und buy my crahp later..."
Okay, I am tired... I am stepping away from the keyboard... 
Cheers all...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (00ZERO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *00ZERO* »_
1.8l lifter 121/2 = 60.5g $8
2l lifters 157/2 = 78.5g $8
power dubs performance lifters = 55g (how much per lifter?)

Hey everyone
Whats up?
Kinda late in this thread and 6 pages was alot to read so I thought I would through this in.
TT Lifters = 49.6g
AEG Single Valve Spring Lifter = 50g
Just thought that would be a good option to lighten up the valve train.


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

The dual valve spring is the only way to fly.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco53* »_The dual valve spring is the only way to fly. 

Thats correct http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
But 8V lifters = 16V lifter so using AEG lifters may be a cheap alternative to lightening up that drivetrain.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Welcome to last November


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_Welcome to last November

Thanks.....









_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Kinda late in this thread

Montreal kick you out


----------



## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

48 grams http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6


----------



## DGruber58 (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: (Richago)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Richago* »_OK, time to ressurect this thread.

Bildon motorsports sells 050 109 309 for $7.59 each. I e-mailed them re: p/n suffix, but got no reply. http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6 I guess I'll give them a call on Monday. Has anyone bought their lifters there? It seems too easy to be true.
edit: Wow, http://fourseasontuning.com has the "HBR" version, 12 for $97. I guess they're all over the place now!
Nathan

_Modified by Richago at 9:48 PM 3-12-2005_

I'm looking at replacing my ticking lifters, and I just sent bildon an email asking if they know the difference, or if they price match.
I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between the hbr and j versions? I'm guessing the hbr are made in brazil, the j are made in germany. Anyone confirm/deny?


----------



## DGruber58 (Jul 14, 2005)

*Re: (DGruber58)*

Just heard back from Four Season Tuning:

_Quote »_
all the 050 lifters are the same. it just boils down to country made
and qty of the set. the 050109309J is the oe# for the german ones 
the 050109309HBR are the same but the H is for hydrualic instead of
the J and the br is for made in brazil, I cant asign the same part
number to mutliple items on the website.
the german made ones are here in a set of 16
http://fourseasontuning.com/?product=2
the best deal are these made by the same co in their brazilian plant (
i have sold over 300 with no issues for the 16V and VR6)
http://fourseasontuning.com/?product=162
Hope this clears it up, the main part number is the same, just the
last letter and country of origin have been added.


----------



## 16V-Sauger (Aug 9, 2005)

so who sells them for the smallest money AND delivers to germany?







vw wants me to pay 24$ each (16valve 384$







)


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: (16V-Sauger)*

I sell the INA lifters at $144 per set, and can ship them to Germany. let me know if you are interested.


----------



## 16V-Sauger (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: (Scirocco53)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco53* »_I sell the INA lifters at $144 per set, and can ship them to Germany. let me know if you are interested.

how much for the shipping? can you declare it as a gift?


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (16V-Sauger)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Scirocco53 -- Purchased quite a bit from him. Great service and pricing.


----------



## A2Carat (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: (rivethead)*

Bringing this back a little .. is Scirocco53 still around? 
I'd like to grab a set from him .. 
What were the weights of the ones he sells?


----------



## rivethead (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (A2Carat)*

His website is http://www.canspeed.ca - Phone number is on it.


----------



## A2Carat (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: (rivethead)*

read through the posts .. anyone know how the INA lifters handle high RPM's? I know it was mentioned that some were not designed for 'performance' or high rpm usage.


_Modified by A2Carat at 6:19 AM 4-15-2006_


----------



## 19E-299 (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (A2Carat)*

a friend of mine is using his 63gr hydros up to 8500. no problems since a few 1000miles on the nürburgring racetrack http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## A2Carat (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: (19E-299)*

sounds good too me .. thanks!


----------



## A2Carat (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: (A2Carat)*

Anyone hear from Scirocco53? I have emailed him numerous times, got an email back, then wanted to place an order and he seems to have slipped off the edge of the planet...
I need my lifters.


----------



## mxman (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: (A2Carat)*

i have clacky lifters, i could use a set rocco53


----------



## A2Carat (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: (mxman)*

found out that if you use the phone (www.canspeed.ca) .. you'll get a hold of him.







.. his a nice guy..


----------



## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: (A2Carat)*

anyone ever use part # 034 109 309?


----------



## 808gti16v (Sep 22, 2006)

phew! i just read all 6 pages of this. damn good post though, a little variety between personal projects and nice pics.
anyways i am wondering what set of lifters would be right for my car. this car is my daily driver. for the most part i want to keep things relatively stock with some minor performance upgrades to make things run smooth and effeciently with a little oomph, i dont drag or rev to 8k but i do like to see what she can do. right now i use 20w-50 oil and on a cold start my engine ticks like crazy up until it reaches operating temperature. from what i gather this is caused by old lifters and i should replace them. are lightened lifters designed with highly modified engines in mind or would it be a good upgrade over stock? do lightened lifters need special valve springs or other components?


----------



## redGTInj (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: (808gti16v)*

honestly for your situation get whatever u can get for the best price http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vwnut18t (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (scottnbarb)*

Just a little note for all, I looked at the pic of the L/W lifters and they look the same as the ones I pulled out of an OBD1 VR6 head from a 95 Jetta. I will try to get pic and post for comparison. I have actually seen four different lifter styles and I think I have all of them in my garage. I will check tonight.


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Sharing time - Lightened Lifters! (vwnut18t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwnut18t* »_Just a little note for all, I looked at the pic of the L/W lifters and they look the same as the ones I pulled out of an OBD1 VR6 head from a 95 Jetta. I will try to get pic and post for comparison. I have actually seen four different lifter styles and I think I have all of them in my garage. I will check tonight.

The part number I get for those vr6 lifters is 034 109 309 AD.
Just if anyone wanted to know.


----------



## Brit33 (Aug 3, 2011)

*034 109 309 ina*

Good interesting thread as I've been confused and worried about fitting the correct lifters for my alfa romeo 33 boxer 8v.

BGA HL6390 are recommended but not available where I live.
These lifters fit many VW,Seat,Skoda models also.

The cross reference INA seems to be: 

*# INA : 420 0022 10* also aftermarket ones that can fit:


*# AUDI *: 050109309C - 034109309N - 034109309AD - *034109309 *- 034109309AC - 60623140 - 60623146
# FEBI BILSTEIN : 08064
# FORD : 95VW6500BA - 1649127 - 1639187 - 1669765 - 6542372 - V86HF6500AA - V86HF6500AB
# OPEL : 640001
# ROVER : STC2144
# RUVILLE : 265426
# SEAT : 050109309H - 050109309A
# TRISCAN :80-29003
# VOLVO : 50109309 

Si I only managed to get *INA 034 109 309* lifters for 9 USD each.
For me they should be ok as they cross match all of the lifters listed above.
and seem to be the same as the 050 model just heavier no?

As Alfa don't make lifters for these boxers anymore I should be ok with these no?

Maybe I need to remove one and weigh it. Haven't attached the heads yet.


----------



## Brit33 (Aug 3, 2011)

these are the INA ones (F-46516.72: 034 109 309):








[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

One more thing:

The 050 109 309 J (German?) from VW official dealership wanted 41 USD PER LIFTER!!!!!!!!!

8 x 41 = 328 USD!! And only 8v.

Really worth the difference unless you are racing at 6-7000 rpm?

I never exceed 5-5200 rpm with my boxer engine.


----------



## Brit33 (Aug 3, 2011)

well my old alfa OE ones (who knows if they are OE?) weigh in at 75grams!!!! pretty heavy for an 8v valvetrain (sorry about the 8v topic in the 16v section but the lifters I bought are the INA ones).

I will weight the 034 INA tonight.


----------



## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

So after reading this whole thread, 050 109 309 H was the lightest lifter found by everyone. Searching the part number in ETKA it told me that the "H" version has been dropped by VW as of 2003, sell off remaining stock, and the new part number 050 109 309 J is its replacement.

Searching for these lifters for my 8v project was not an easy task as most places only sold them in packs of 12 or 16 for the vr6 and 16v... however I found them here http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=360 in a pack of 8 for $55 shipped and just placed the order. I'll post back up after I receive them...


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

So should be same same for 8v-16v-VR, correct???


----------



## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*FV-QR*

yeah they fit anything hydraulic lifter 8v 16v 12v, and supposedly the exhaust valves on a 20v head but don't quote me on that


----------



## rysskii3 (Apr 19, 2006)

6 pages. damn. 

I really dont want to read all of it, but i have a question. How much difference do light weight lifters make if thats the only thing that is changed, lets say on a completely stock engine?

:beer:


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

L33t A2 said:


> yeah they fit anything hydraulic lifter 8v 16v 12v, and supposedly the exhaust valves on a 20v head but don't quote me on that


Great pricing. Thanks for the link.


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## Scurvy Bandit (Sep 12, 2003)

L33t A2 said:


> So after reading this whole thread, 050 109 309 H was the lightest lifter found by everyone. Searching the part number in ETKA it told me that the "H" version has been dropped by VW as of 2003, sell off remaining stock, and the new part number 050 109 309 J is its replacement.
> 
> Searching for these lifters for my 8v project was not an easy task as most places only sold them in packs of 12 or 16 for the vr6 and 16v... however I found them here http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=360 in a pack of 8 for $55 shipped and just placed the order. I'll post back up after I receive them...


Wouldn't TDI lifters probably be heavier? Just thinking... I think I will get the fourseasons ones... maybe. Im still doing some more research.


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