# ZF Transmission Fluid Specifications



## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Lifetime fill transmissions*

I think most of us have decided that changing the ATF periodically is a good thing. However, it has been quite a debate as many dealers don't recommend the service. 
I just found a ZF (makers of our trannies) pdf file that makes it pretty clear. I'll let you read it for yourself. Although service is recommended if use is what I would refer to as severe. The link is 
http://www.zf.com/zfXmlServlet...e=en 
The file I refer to on this page is TE-ML11 and is titled "Manual transmissions, double-clutch transmissions and automatic transmissions for cars"


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (Jxander)*

Thanks, interesting info.
This looks like the key info from the .pdf:
Maintenance recommendations ZF automatic transmissions
3/4-speed automatic transmissions:
ZF 3 and 4-speed automatic transmissions must be filled with approved ATF oils according to ZF list of lubricants TE-ML 11, lubricant
class 11A / 11B or with mineral ATF oils according to the former Specification Dexron II / Dexron III by General Motors. For oil-change
intervals consult the vehicle manufacturer's specifications.
5 and 6-speed as well as 4HP20 automatic transmissions:
ZF 5 and 6-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed partially
synthetic ATF oils. Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions. Especially driving at very high operating
temperatures can result in accelerated aging or increased wear of ATF oils. It is recommended, in the event of severe operating
conditions, such as:
- frequent highway driving in top speed range,
- offensive, sporty driving style,
- frequent trailer operation,
being above average, oil purification (oil change) on automatic transmissions is recommended between 80,000 km and 120,000 km, or
8 years, depending on the load.
In each case, only released ATF oil may be used for oil changes. And oil changes must be performed in accordance with the relevant
specifications.
The ZF automatic transmissions 5HP18 and 5HP30 are exceptions and must be filled differently depending on the version.
The oils released in each case are specified in the ZF Lubricants List TE-ML 11.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (rscharf)*

Robert:
That's it exactly. Sorry I should have at least given the page number(#3) but I did want everyone to know that this info comes from ZF not some secondary source.
However, if you trust Robert & me, Robert has quoted the relevant ZF info in his previous post.
Now if we can just inform VW and its dealers of this information so they can communicate correctly with owners. I personally had requested an ATF fluid/filter change as soon as I purchased my Phaeton(57k miles) and was told by the dealer that it was not a service item as it was a lifetime fill and was not even recommended as it could cause problems. I wasn't convinced but knew if I forced the issue by changing the fluid and subsequently had a transmission problem, it would not be covered because i had not followed their recommendation. So here I am at 64k miles with car in the shop with transmission problems. By the way, their recommended solution, change the fluid at my expense. I wish now, I had changed it myself at 57k miles. Oh well, live and learn.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (Jxander)*

Here is the PDF that the above link leads to.
Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (PanEuropean)*

Anyone knows which "Product Group" automatic transmission are in our cars ? I know the W12 has 5 speeds and the V8 6 speeds, but this does not seem enough to be able to infer a "product group" number.
I too would like to change the transmission oil of my V8 (65Kmiles) but have been told by my dealer that no change was required. Then, he also asked me what fluid exactly I wanted to change, since apparently, there are different fluids that could be changed.
On my old Jag, the rear axle oil could be changed, and this was different from the transmission oil.
Now, on a 4wd transmission, I don't know exactly what can / should be changed...
Anyone could clarify ?
Thanks,
P.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (Zaphh)*

Hi Pierre:
There is some detailed information about changing transmission fluid at this post, which is listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category)
Changing Transmission Fluid on the 5 speed (FGE) Transmission (W12 Engine)
I know that the specification (model number) for the transmission on the W12 powered Phaetons is 5HP 24 - see the data plate picture below, which is from my car - but I don't know offhand what the model specification is for the 6 speed transmissions.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (PanEuropean)*

Note also the warning from VW of America in the attached "Tech Tip" from 2007, in which VW points out that there are 5 different specifications of transmission fluid used in North American VW products, and they are NOT interchangeable.
Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael,
Where can this tab be found ??? Do you need to disassemble the car to have access to it ?
(more simply, does anyone else with a V8 know which transmission is in our car ?).
Thanks,
P.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (Zaphh)*

Hi Pierre:
The data plate shown above is mounted on the side of the transmission. It is visible when you lift up the car.
You don't need to refer to this data plate, if you look in either the front of your owner manual, or in the right rear corner of the 'well' that the spare tire is kept in, you will find a sticker that has the transmission specification printed on it. More info about that sticker is here: Understanding Phaeton Production Codes & Build Stickers (downloadable PDF).
Also, if you can cope with the German language (which I am going to guess you can, given that you are from Strasbourg), there is an excellent discussion about V8 transmission fluid on the German language forum, at this link: Getriebe Öl wechseln?
Lastly, ZF's main maintenance facility is just up the road from you in Zweibrücken, you can take the car up there to have the fluid flushed and changed.
Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for the tip. I'll have it done there.
Do you think they can do the software upgrade too (or can only VW do it ?).
Thanks,
P.



_Modified by Zaphh at 6:32 PM 8-7-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Lifetime fill transmissions (Zaphh)*

I suspect that ZF would be able to do it. There is some discussion of exactly that (getting the software update done at the same time that the specification of transmission fluid is changed) on the German language discussion.
Michael


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

As I mentioned in a previous thread, my car slips or shudders when the gas pedal is smashed from a standing start or from a sudden acceleration when going very slowly. The techs have recommended changing the transmission oil. 

Having read this thread I am a bit confused by the data presented in the document below. The link did not transfer for this quoted document in the thread:

File Type: pdf Approved Transmission Fluids.pdf (119.5 KB, 35 views) 

1- On page 2 on the left, the 6HP19 transmission is identified as being that of the V8 Phaeton. What is not clear to me is whether any of the fluids on the right are correct for making the VW V8 oil change. If that is the case, are the other oils listed there less expensive than what the VW dealer charges for the liter of VW branded fluid? The VW fluid is not Listed in the document.

2- In one of the transmission related threads I read that that the ATF Dexron III oil was recommended for the Phaeton. Is this information still valid? I have not been able to find the thread again, but I think is was from several years ago.

3- I have also read here that there is a new transmission oil for Phaetons, but I have not been able to find out the part number nor an equivalent. This goes back, somewhat, to the two previous questions.

Thank you,

cai


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Couple of points
1) if connecting a 2400kg car and a 300+ hp engine is not "severe duty" then I don't know what is.
2) I used Redline D6 fluid for a drain and refill, no problems so far (V8 engine) -(W12 calls for their D4 fluid) 
3) if you read through the ZF website about this, they sell kits with their fluid, seals, and filters. I just have not found where to buy the kits yet.
4) I will probably search for a ZF kit in the spring. With a drain and fill only, then a filter job a few months later, I should be good to go for a while.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Cai:

There is a bit more information about approved transmission fluids at the post entitled Changing Transmission Fluid, Checking Transmission Fluid Level.

Although that post is specific about the 5 speed transmission used in cars with the W12 engine, I believe that there are links in that discussion to information about fluids for the 6 speed transmission that is used with the other engines.

As for what fluid to use... I buy the stuff from my VW dealer, and ask the Parts Specialist to look up what is currently recommended in the current version of the VW Repair Manual that is available online at the dealership. I stress the words 'currently recommended' and 'current' repair manual, because fluid specifications change over the years - sometimes fluids are superseded or the spec is actually changed.

The transmission is an awfully expensive part, I don't think it is wise to put any fluid in it that is not explicitly specified by VW (or ZF... but in case of any ambiguity, I'll take VWs spec over ZFs spec).

Michael


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Thank you cbh123 and Michael for your answers. I am in the exploratory phase of changing the transmission oil and was not exactly clear as to what was being recommended. Michael brings up a very good point about asking the parts department about current specifications and recommendations. Next time I am there I will ask him for some information. 

cai


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Bear in mind that currently-recommended ATF might require current-level software in the transmission controller.

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Tomasty posted chapter and verse on this subject. He spent a lot of time dealing with ZF and VW in Germany to figure it out, it's the most definitive information I've seen posted about the V8 transmission fluid. There's another thread where he has pictures of the fluid change:

_OK lazy people (just kidding),

This is only from my experience and according to my understanding, so please use your own judgment as well.

Phaeton’s transmission ZF 6HP-19A, is very sensitive to ATF. the part number in ETKA got updated at one point, it is now showing as G060162A2, but the original factory filled ATF is not G060162A2, and VW didn’t bother to notify the dealer that this change took place. And once you changed the ATF, Since the usual way for dealer to change ATF is to drop the pan, drain the fluid, and replace the filter can only get rid of about 40% of the fluid, once different types of ATF got mixed, that’s not what you want. For this transmission, the clutch will burn due to mismatch ATF type, and will require a software update to the TCM.

That is what happened to me, but at that time neither the dealer nor I know this, until I found out through the hard way: my transmission starts to shift strangely, then I found the info on this forum and provided it to the dealer and push them to check with VW. I even scanned my car with Vag-Com and provided them the ECM and TCM software version number, along with the email I got from ZF which confirmed an software update is needed once ATF got changed.

So the solution the dealer got from VW is this: Change the ATF one more time after driven certain Kms, drain the old fluid, refill with G060162A2 again and then update the TCM, according to VW, this should correct the problem, It will drain about 80% of the old fluid, and the TCM software version is brought from 1003 to 1905 in order to adjust to the new type of ATF.

So, in conclusion, below is the procedure done on my car:
-----------------------------------
Part 1 of Transmission Service Units:

Perform Automatic Transmission Service: 
Service includes filter, fluid and new pan gasket, 
Change automatic transmission fluid and filter.
Replace rear differential fluid.

QTY Part Number Description
1 01V-321-379 Washer
1 09L-321-371 Gasket
1 09L-325-429 Strainer
1 G-052-145-S2 Axle Oil
1 G-052-145-A1 Axle Oil
6 G-060-162-A2 ATF Oil
-----------------------------------
Part 2 of Transmission Service as per VW QTM 

(Only after car been driven by customer for 500 miles since the first service):

Change fluid for second time (No need to replace the filter or pan gasket) and top up.
Perform TCM software update as per QTM. 
QTY Part Number Description
6 G-060-162-A2 ATF Oil
VW Tele-update TCM Module 
----------------------------------

I hope this helps and again, do this at your own risk, but hope to hear some good news.

Tomas_


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

Thank you Chris and Invisibleware. 

For CBH123, the transmission fluid change kits are sold by Blauparts (blauparts.com). They give you a bit of information as to what fluid to use when changing it for the first time or a subsequent time. They also emphasize the software update. I do not remember if anyone from the forum has used this kit.

Before seeing the information from Blauparts and these threads, I asked the 2 Phaeton techs at Lindsay VW, about cost and time. They said that they have a machine that does the change in one pass, avoiding the multiple fills and drains and temperature control issues that I have read here. They also said that it takes about 16 quarts/liters, of oil at about $80.00 per quart/liter. 

1- Have any of you heard about the use of such machinery to change the transmission oil? I have visions of something similar to a brake fluid flushing unit, probably a bit more sophisticated.
2- Does the cost per quart/liter of this oil seem reasonable to you?
3- Blauparts only provides 9 liters of oil in their kit. Does this seem enough? What is the capacity of a full transmission?
4- Blauparts identifies where to find the type of transmission in a Phaeton. However, I do not seem to have the warranty page they show. They reference a Warranty Voucher page on book 2 that I do not seem to have. My book 2 is about "Safety First". Are the books for USA models different from those of ROW?

cai


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Cai:

I have never heard of such a machine for changing transmission fluid, and the VW repair manual for the Phaeton does not mention such a machine.

The process for changing fluid (as set out in the VW repair manual) is explained in the post I made many years ago when I changed the fluid in my Phaeton. My car is a W12 engine model, which has a different transmission from the V8, but I believe that the 'general gist' of the process is the same for both transmissions (although the fluids used are different, and some minor steps in the process might be different).

The fluid is expensive. Off the top of my head, I think my 5 speed transmission used about 12 litres, and it cost about $40 a litre... but that was quite a few years ago. $80 a litre sounds a bit high, but who knows, the price may have gone up recently. 

Here's the link to the discussion explaining the process for a 5 speed transmission: Changing Transmission Fluid, Checking Transmission Fluid Level

There are a whole bunch of transmission-related discussions in the FAQ, it is probable that one of them goes into detail about the process for the 6 speed transmission. Here are some links to look at (all from the FAQ):

Transmission Discussions (6 speed, used on V8 Phaetons)
....DIY transmission valve body replacement completed
Transmission Discussions (5 speed, used on W12 Phaetons)
....Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)
....Changing Transmission Fluid, Checking Transmission Fluid Level (illustrated how-to guide)
....Transmission (any version) - cannot shift out of Park
....Transmission (any version) - PRNDS lights up in display

Michael


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Somewhere in the forum, there's a discussion about the machines, with some assertions that they shouldn't be used on the Phaeton. You should shop around at different dealers, there's a wide variation in what they charge, I had a quote as low as $400.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

I posted here recently, 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...mission)-fluid-levels&p=86089035#post86089035 

Note the links to zf instructions - pretty well described. 
I am confident that VW outsourced the transmission stuff to ZF, and that they are better experts than VW on this subject. 
40, 80 dollars a litre is just pure dealership robbery.

I bought 9 litres of fluid as per the blauparts kit, but there was no way to get more than 5 litres out of or back into the V8 trans. I spilled plenty trying.. And still have 3+ litres left over. 

I am looking for a ZF branded kit, not just "a kit" 
http://www.zf.com/brands/content/en/zf_parts/products_zp/oil_change_kits_zp/oil-change-kits.html


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

cbh123 said:


> ... there was no way to get more than 5 litres out of or back into the V8 trans. I spilled plenty trying..l


That differs from my experience with the 5 speed transmission on my W12. I know I added at least 10 litres of fluid after draining it, changing the filter, and so forth.

If I recall correctly, the instructions call for operating the transmission through the various settings (briefly) while draining it... did you do that?

Michael


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## ThomaSX (Apr 17, 2014)

MY2005 (pun intended) never had an oil service and transmission is getting slow and jerky. 

Having spoken to a local AT specialist (non-ZF) he only recommends the oil service to be done when overhauling the entire transmission. In his opinion changing the oil now would be a waste of money and make the situation even worse. His reasoning is that this "tired" and aged oil put a lot of deposit on the o-rings and sealing is basically maintained by it as well. Changing/deluting the oil with new one would act as a detergant and wash out those deposits worsening the sealing capabilites and/or dislocating deposits from their place into the valve body causing even bigger issues. Well, at least that's what he said.

Any opinions on this one?

Thanks,
Tamas


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

PanEuropean said:


> That differs from my experience with the 5 speed transmission on my W12. I know I added at least 10 litres of fluid after draining it, changing the filter, and so forth.
> 
> If I recall correctly, the instructions call for operating the transmission through the various settings (briefly) while draining it... did you do that?
> 
> Michael



Yes, did all that - not surprising the two transmissions have different quantities.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

ThomaSX said:


> MY2005 (pun intended) never had an oil service and transmission is getting slow and jerky.
> 
> Having spoken to a local AT specialist (non-ZF) he only recommends the oil service to be done when overhauling the entire transmission. In his opinion changing the oil now would be a waste of money and make the situation even worse. His reasoning is that this "tired" and aged oil put a lot of deposit on the o-rings and sealing is basically maintained by it as well. Changing/deluting the oil with new one would act as a detergant and wash out those deposits worsening the sealing capabilites and/or dislocating deposits from their place into the valve body causing even bigger issues. Well, at least that's what he said.
> 
> ...


I disagree - as long as the draining and filling is done properly - (and that is basically impossible without an overnight stay on a lift) new fluid will only help.

My suspicion is 90% of the jobs done are not done correctly. This leads to failures soon after the oil change. 

Slow and jerky shifting is exactly the symptoms that are cured with fresh fluid. How many km (miles) are on your car?


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## ThomaSX (Apr 17, 2014)

It's got 240k km. Why would it need to stay lifted overnight?
I don't have access to a lift, but I have a pit. Would that suffice?


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## Saeid (May 29, 2013)

I replaced my ATF on my 04 V8 and it took a total of 11 Liters to do the job completely once. I drained and changed the filter with taking out only about 5 1/2 liters and then I disconnected the ATF return from the cooler to the transmission and did the rest of refilling until clean fluid was coming out from the line, then stopped reconnect the line and top up again. so this way I only lost couple of liters but got all the old oil out.
The price of the ATF can be negotiated with the dealers as they don't stock it so there is no reason for them to mark it up to retail pricing. You can always tell them it is cheaper online.


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## pgoober (Jan 4, 2009)

*Pit should do fine*

As long as you can get access to the drain/refill.

Also to Tamas, the fluid refresh did a world of good to my P at 100k miles. Ready to do it again.

-BD


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## ThomaSX (Apr 17, 2014)

Saeid said:


> I replaced my ATF on my 04 V8 and it took a total of 11 Liters to do the job completely once. I drained and changed the filter with taking out only about 5 1/2 liters and then I disconnected the ATF return from the cooler to the transmission and did the rest of refilling until clean fluid was coming out from the line, then stopped reconnect the line and top up again. so this way I only lost couple of liters but got all the old oil out.
> The price of the ATF can be negotiated with the dealers as they don't stock it so there is no reason for them to mark it up to retail pricing. You can always tell them it is cheaper online.


I am thinking along the same lines and would do a complete refill. However, I thought ATF is only circulated in the ATF coolant if it's hot enough... So did you warm your ATF first? BTW, is there a separate ATF cooler, or is that integrated with the main engine radiator?


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

ThomaSX said:


> It's got 240k km. Why would it need to stay lifted overnight?
> I don't have access to a lift, but I have a pit. Would that suffice?


To fill it to the correct level, you need the fluid to be at 35-40 Celsius, and with the engine running. The level rises much higher when not running, so you have to pre-fill it - then put the plug in and let it cool down.

From room temp, (sit overnight) you will only have a few minutes of running before getting too hot. By the time you start the engine, undo the plug, put a hooked hose in the hole, and start adding fluid, you will be scrambling to read the temp on a scan tool, and then get the hose out , not spill too much, and then get the plug back in. 

We don't know the repercussions of doing it incorrectly, however the procedure is well documented by ZF themselves. The stories given by independant trans guys, who have to try and learn everyone's rules, pretty much tell us what happens when you don't follow exact procedures. - not proof, but do you really think they get it perfect every time?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> By the time you start the engine, undo the plug, put a hooked hose in the hole, and start adding fluid, you will be scrambling to read the temp on a scan tool, and then get the hose out , not spill too much, and then get the plug back in.


Hi Bruce, 

I agree. Most forums for most transmission brands contain the suggestion to use an infra-red measurement gun pointed at the centre of the ATF pan to save the time on trying to read the scan tool, although I don't see this in official literature, such as ZF's ATF Change Kit and Flow-Chart Instructions.

But then, most transmission manuals were developed before these guns became widely available for less than £20 or $30. There seems to be a 10°C window during the procedure, so the accuracy of a cheap IR gun should be acceptable.

Chris


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## Saeid (May 29, 2013)

Hi ThomaSX,
there is actually two coolers, 1st to the cooler integrated with the main Rad (which I would call heat exchanger) and then to the air cooled rad and return to the transmission and that is were I intercepted. I was not concerned with the ATF temperature at this point since I was only getting the old oil out and stopped the engine as the clean oil started to come out. The next day I topped it off.
The oil came out of the cooler line (Air cooler) shortly after I started the engine while I was adding more oil.
Not sure how to add pictures otherwise I could post some pics.
Thanks,
Saeid


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## ThomaSX (Apr 17, 2014)

Saeid said:


> Not sure how to add pictures otherwise I could post some pics.
> Thanks,
> Saeid


Sir, you could do that by uploading your pics to free hosting sites such as photobucket and pasting a link here. Much appreciated!
So, I am assuming the rad heat exchanger is free flowing without any restrictor, so that the engine coolant warms up the ATF to a point. To my knowledge the ATF cooler has an in-line thermostat that opens at whatever degree. So I guess you can drain both coolers easily and after a "cold" refill the heat exchanger gets the new ATF immediately, but the ATF cooler only gets into the circulation once the thermostat opens. Hence the need to top it up after a hot-cool-warm cycle. At least that's my theory 

Thanks,
Tamas


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## ThomaSX (Apr 17, 2014)

*Oil changed*

Okay, so I did the oil service and opted for ZF Lifeguard8. I was able to exract around 4l (including the amount I spilled on the floor  ) then I could pump in 6l, so I guess I was I had been running it on 2l short. As this was not a very well maintained transmission I am just hoping I am able to prolong it a bit more before a major overhaul. However, I did notice some oil marks/stains at the back of the box (see pictures). Could this be the output shaft seal busted and if so, is it serviceable without taking it all apart?


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