# Misfire help



## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

I have been having misfires on my 2004 2.0 Jetta even after replacing the spark plugs, ignition wires and the coil pack. Now what should I do?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

You're STILL chasing this thing?

Do a compression test. Remove all plugs, disconnect all fuel injectors, 5 puffs each hole, WOT. Post results.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> You're STILL chasing this thing?
> 
> Do a compression test. Remove all plugs, disconnect all fuel injectors, 5 puffs each hole, WOT. Post results.


Yes I'm still chasing this. When will it end?

That's interesting. I have done a compression test recently but that was with the injectors connected. Do you mean remove the fuel rail and leave the injectors in or unplug the injectors from the electricity? Or do you mean remove the fuel line from the rail? Why would WOT matter?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Disconnect means unplug. You don't have to pull the rail. You want to do the test on dry cylinders, no fuel.

WOT prevents manifold vacuum buildup.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Disconnect means unplug. You don't have to pull the rail. You want to do the test on dry cylinders, no fuel.
> 
> WOT prevents manifold vacuum buildup.


Hi Anony00GT how's it going?

Well If I disconnect the fuel line from the rail won't I get gasoline all over the place? Or you just mean the electrical to the injectors?

So your telling me if I do it this way, with the cylinders dry and with no manifold vaccum buildup that the numbers will be different then the last time I did the compression test?

Is this the proper way to do a compression test?


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

*Compression test*

Well here are the numbers that I came up with:

All plugs in
Manifold on
WOT

C1 135
C2 135
C3 123
C4 131

I know that brand new the car is supposed to have 154.35 PSI

What do you think?

I think the misfires are being caused by the fuel supply prolly the injectors.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Those numbers are OK.

If you suspect a bad injector, swap them. See if the misfires follow the injectors.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Well I have been recording my fault codes from 9/17/2012-1/6/2013 a total of 36 times and I came up with misfires on 

C1: 17 times
C2: 5 times
C3: 11 times
C4: 7 times

What do you make of these numbers?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

This is getting tough to diagnose over the interwebs.

Does the car run OK and throw misfire codes? Or does it have noticeable misfires? When...all the time or just sometimes?

I think your next step is gonna be to get your hands on VCDS.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> This is getting tough to diagnose over the interwebs.
> 
> Does the car run OK and throw misfire codes? Or does it have noticeable misfires? When...all the time or just sometimes?
> 
> I think your next step is gonna be to get your hands on VCDS.


No the car doesn't run well and really doesn't drive. It dies and runs uneven and barely revs up. Revving up is a problem it has.

I may upgrade my shareware version of VCDS-Lite. I am to get my tax return at the end of the month. But last year it took them till I think October.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Have you verified timing? Need VCDS to check Lambda numbers and watch live misfire counters.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Have you verified timing? Need VCDS to check Lambda numbers and watch live misfire counters.


I don't know how to verify timing. That would suck if I bought all these parts and it was something simple that was causing the problem.

My shareware version of VCSD-Lite gives Lambda numbers and I always wonder what those are for. I don't know anything about live misfire counters.

Thanks.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

You need a service manual.

What are the values in measuring block 032, if you can access that with shareware?

Bring cylinder #1 to TDC. You have BBW, so to verify camshaft position you have to remove the valvecover and use the special cam lock tool. Incorrect timing on this engine _should_ throw a correlation code. I'm not sure timing is the culprit but we're running out of things to check here, unless there's something that's being missed via convoluted internet translation of diagnostics, which is certainly possible.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> You need a service manual.
> 
> What are the values in measuring block 032, if you can access that with shareware?
> 
> Bring cylinder #1 to TDC. You have BBW, so to verify camshaft position you have to remove the valvecover and use the special cam lock tool. Incorrect timing on this engine _should_ throw a correlation code. I'm not sure timing is the culprit but we're running out of things to check here, unless there's something that's being missed via convoluted internet translation of diagnostics, which is certainly possible.


I have a bently service manual.

I will check the values in measuring block 032 when I can next get to my car and work on it. Maybe tonight.

Is this what you mean by camshaft lock tool? http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-AUDI-Camshaft-Alignment-Timing-Locking-Tool-/261166906516#vi-content 

I can't afford this right away but will be able to soon enough. I've never checked my timing before.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

No. This tool:

http://www.toolsource.com/camshaft-lock-p-97810.html?gclid=CL_YxJq7zLQCFcqY4AodJyUARg

If you're going to R&R your timing belt it's a necessity to have. Like I said, I'm not sure your timing is off because there's no faults for it.

The answers to questions about timing procedures, basic code diag, etc should all be in that Bentley manual.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> No. This tool:
> 
> http://www.toolsource.com/camshaft-lock-p-97810.html?gclid=CL_YxJq7zLQCFcqY4AodJyUARg
> 
> ...


Yeah if I want to have this car for the long haul and take it to the racetrack I will need to know how to adjust the timing or at least check it, even with the vvt. I would like to put a normal head on it so that I can upgrade the camshaft because nobody makes an upgraded camshaft with the propeller on the end like mine has.

I will look at the manual tomorrow and may work on the car a bit. I'm headed to my cabin when it warms up. I need to clean the gutters and cut down some tree branches and stain a fence.

Thanks for your help.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

*Fault Codes:*

Ok I recorded 36 fault scans from 9/17/12 - 1/6/13 and here is what I came up with

Times:
P1152: 28
P1455: 19
P1355: 10
P1358: 10
P1361: 10
P1364: 10
P0420: 9
P2626: 5
P2231: 4
P1517: 4
P3081: 3
P0011: 2
P0507: 1
P1151: 1
P2270: 1
P2414: 1

Add to this all those misfires. 

The only thing that I have remedied is the ignition open circuits. I ran a new ground wire like Bently said to do.

I don't know how to remedy the others. As far as the catalyst goes I have an ultra high flow cat and that throws some codes and an OBX header.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Forget putting a "regular" BEV head on it. You're looking at swapping ECU's, harnesses, all kinds of stuff. Not worth it. Also, there is no adjusting the timing on BBW. Set it and forget it, or have problems.

List definitions with those codes. I can't possibly look them all up.

Offhand, I know that P1152 is a lean code, and the most frequent. Start lambda diagnostics.

P0011 is a timing problem related to VVT. Could cause P1152, as well as others.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Forget putting a "regular" BEV head on it. You're looking at swapping ECU's, harnesses, all kinds of stuff. Not worth it. Also, there is no adjusting the timing on BBW. Set it and forget it, or have problems.
> 
> List definitions with those codes. I can't possibly look them all up.
> 
> ...


You bet I don't know all these either, till now. That doesn't mean I know how to remedy them.

P1152: 28 Bank1, Long Term Fuel Trim, Range 2 Leanness Lower Limit Exceeded
P1455: 19 Exhaust gas temperature sensor 1 range/performance
P1355: 10 Ignition open circuit C1
P1358: 10 Ignition open circuit C2
P1361: 10 Ignition open circuit C3
P1364: 10 Ignition open circuit C4
P0420: 9 Catalyst System,Bank1 Efficiency Below Threshold
P2626: 5 Heated Oxygen Sensor (Bank 1 Sensor 1) Pumping Current Trim Circuit.
P2231: 4 Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1: Signal Shorted to Heater Circuit
P1517: 4 Main Relay Circ. Electrical Malfunction
P3081: 3 engine temperature too low
P0011: 2 Camshaft position actuator Bank 1 timing over advanced
P0507: 1 Idle Control System Higher than Expected
P1151: 1 Bank1, Long Term Fuel Trim, Range 1 Leanness Lower Limit Exceeded
P2270: 1 HO2S12 Sensor Signal Stuck Lean
P2414: 1 o2 sensor

I am soon to go down and check the main relay and put the rims on my car so there is less work to do once it drives.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Fix the shorts in the O2 sensor circuit ASAP. Verify EGT operation.

Verify timing. Make sure there are no vacuum leaks.

Get a full scan with VCDS. Some of this stuff is too involved for basic OBDII diagnosis, there also may be other codes hiding from your generic scanner. Type your zip code into this thread to find someone in your area willing to help out:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...wners-pm-me-your-info-requested-in-the-thread


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Fix the shorts in the O2 sensor circuit ASAP. Verify EGT operation.
> 
> Verify timing. Make sure there are no vacuum leaks.
> 
> ...


When I installed the header I had the o2 sensor wire so that it melted onto the exhaust and that is what that one is about so I will have to buy a new 02 sensor. 

The EGT is going to be a bit different because of my OBX header. I think I can leave the header there and adjust the variables around it to make it work.

I use my laptop to scan and use the VCDS-Lite shareware version. I expect to get my tax return at the end of the month and I may get a new oxy sensor and the full version of VCDS-Lite.

I didn't get my rims on today because I ran out of time.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Don't wait on the O2 sensor, fix it *NOW*. Shorted O2 sensor heater circuits can burn down ECU's. Usually it's the 1.8T guys with big downpipes that melt wires against the exhaust and cause this problem, but I guess a 2.0 header can do it too. I hope that's not what happened in your case, and that's why we NEED to see a full (registered version) VCDS scan to continue diagnostics.

At least disconnect it if you cannot afford a replacement yesterday, and make sure the harness is intact and out of the way meantime. Route the new sensor wires far away from anything that could damage the wires.

Is the EGT installed in the header? Do you still have a proper OE cat and the other two O2 sensors properly installed?


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Don't wait on the O2 sensor, fix it *NOW*. Shorted O2 sensor heater circuits can burn down ECU's. Usually it's the 1.8T guys with big downpipes that melt wires against the exhaust and cause this problem, but I guess a 2.0 header can do it too. I hope that's not what happened in your case, and that's why we NEED to see a full (registered version) VCDS scan to continue diagnostics.
> 
> Disconnect it if you cannot afford a replacement yesterday.
> 
> Is the EGT installed in the header? Do you still have a proper OE cat and the other two O2 sensors properly installed?


The battery isn't in my car. It's on dust magnet duty, and I'm thinking of getting a cover for it. The EGT is installed in the header and I put an ultra high flow cat and the other two 02 sensors are properly installed.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

How did you put both O2 sensors properly in a high-flow cat? They're supposed to monitor both parts of a two-stage cat. And both are required (with the cat) for proper fuel trimming on BBW.

This is not, at all, a modification-friendly platform.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> How did you put both O2 sensors properly in a high-flow cat? They're supposed to monitor both parts of a two-stage cat. And both are required (with the cat) for proper fuel trimming on BBW.
> 
> This is not, at all, a modification-friendly platform.


Well I had a picture and now I can't find it of my cat, because I sold it on eBay for $70ish. If I remember right, there was one oxy sensor in the middle of the cat and one right after the cat.

After I did this modification I noticed a huge drop in fuel economy. That's why I was hoping that when I get my car chipped that they can fix that. If they can I would like them to totally delete the o2 sensors.

There are plenty of mods that can and have been done to my car. It is an excellent learning tool so that I know what to do to my next car and eventually my dream car a Lancia Stratos.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Yes, one in the middle, one in the back. It's actually two cats in one housing, each individually monitored.

You had a drop in fuel economy because the computer is trying to compensate for an error in catalyst operation, and is no longer trimming fuel properly (I find it hard to believe much power was gained here either). This also needs to be corrected for a proper diagnosis and repair.

Deleting the O2 sensors is not emission legal, so no support from me on that one. Nor is installing a high-flow cat on a PZEV car.

This car may have to be reset back to stock to allow proper diagnosis to be made, but make sure there are no TPS/APP codes stored by a VCDS scan first. If those are stored (generic OBDII won't pick them up), it's time for a new ECU.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

It seems like I'm at a deadlock until I get my tax return at the end of the month I hope. Then I will get the full version of VCDS-Lite so it can pick up more things than the shareware version. Then I will consider getting that 02 sensor replaced but it would be nice if I could do without them.

I put the rims on it today and it looks nice but I need to get the salt off it by washing it. When I was putting the rims on I noticed a tear in where the right drive shaft connects to the differential in the rubber and a screw was missing there. So I have a few things to keep me busy until my tax return comes.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

No tune will allow you to run without an upstream O2 sensor. The factory one in your application is actually a wideband A/F sensor.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Are you talking about the EGT? I think that is fine. The header shouldn't have any problem with that. Well I got the rims on and I may put the battery in later today and see how she runs.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Well I'm sure somebody makes a tune to eliminate the EGT, although I'm not sure what people are writing for BBW engines.

But the upstream O2 sensor (which is a wideband sensor on BBW) is necessary regardless of the tune. Plus shorted heater circuit can and will burn down the ECU.

Repair the O2 sensor wiring before you fire it up.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Well I'm sure somebody makes a tune to eliminate the EGT, although I'm not sure what people are writing for BBW engines.
> 
> But the upstream O2 sensor (which is a wideband sensor on BBW) is necessary regardless of the tune. Plus shorted heater circuit can and will burn down the ECU.
> 
> Repair the O2 sensor wiring before you fire it up.


Yes, while taking time and looking at the car today I noticed that it is the front o2 sensor that has the screwed up wiring. This is on my list of things to get when my tax return comes at the end of the month. LOL (that's not going to happen).

I too noticed that the drive shaft rubber that connects near the differential on the far side is shreaded and it is missing a screw so I need to fix that.

I took the ignition relay to the dealership today and they said that there seemed to be nothing wrong with it.

I did run the car today and found that Unisettings seemed not to work on my car. Of course the car didn't run good and I took video.

I also took this VAG-COM:

17925 - Power Supply Relay for ECU (J271 or J363): Electrical Malfunction
P1517 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16684 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0300 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16685 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0301 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16585 - Injector: Cylinder 1 (N30): Circuit Malfunction
P0201 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16587 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0203 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16586 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0202 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16588 - Injector: Cylinder 4 (N33): Circuit Malfunction
P0204 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16705 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0321 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
17763 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1355 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
17769 - Cylinder 3 Ignition Circuit: Open Circuit
P1361 - 35-00 - -
17772 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1364 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate
17766 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1358 - 35-00 - Please Register/Activate

So my list of parts to get whenever my tax return comes is:

1. VAG-COM-Lite
2. o2 Sensor
3. 4 used OEM fuel injectors
4. 10' of stainless steel 2.5" tubing
5. http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_14_478&products_id=1519


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Look into 16705 

I don't see any throttle codes yet, so that's a good sign, but you're not out of the water yet. Fix the O2 sensor, move that to the top of the list. Get full VCDS when you can and perform throttle ADP.

Check everything related to the injector circuit. Check the injectors with an ohmmeter. Do proper diagnosis there before replacing them, I find it very hard to believe all 4 injectors went bad at the same time.

Also, I cannot emphasize how much you've gotta stop modding and fix the problems, otherwise you're just compounding the problem. Don't even think about additional modifications, don't even play on Techtonic's website, until it's running right.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Look into 16705
> 
> I don't see any throttle codes yet, so that's a good sign, but you're not out of the water yet. Fix the O2 sensor, move that to the top of the list. Get full VCDS when you can and perform throttle ADP.
> 
> ...


I looked into 16705 and it was an engine speed sensor malfunction and I couldn't find it on my car. I did find the camshaft position sensor and I took a look at that and it looked fine. 

I did test the ohms across all the injectors and they were perfect but that doesn't mean that they spray the gas well.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

pooisgood2 said:


> I have a bently service manual.


Perhaps you should read it?

Engine speed sensor. It's the crankshaft sensor. It's near the transmission in the block, the side that faces the front of the car. It's probably the single most critical sensor to engine operation.

Injector failure is rare, plus a mechanical malfunction is not going to cause those fault codes.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> Perhaps you should read it?
> 
> Engine speed sensor. It's the crankshaft sensor. It's near the transmission in the block, the side that faces the front of the car. It's probably the single most critical sensor to engine operation.
> 
> Injector failure is rare, plus a mechanical malfunction is not going to cause those fault codes.


Well I got that o2 sensor off and it was burned though to the metal wires and even burned though the wires a bit. It was toast so I got my tax refund today and got a used one off eBay for $18.99.

I looked a bit at the crankshaft sensor and I didn't get it off yet today because it was time to eat and the damn thing is way back behind the oil filter and tough to get to. So I will keep you posted with what I am up to.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

$18.99 for a used O2 sensor?!? :what:

Dude, make sure it's the correct sensor for a BBW engine. You do know that O2 sensors are normal wear items right? That's like buying a used set of brake pads.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> $18.99 for a used O2 sensor?!? :what:
> 
> Dude, make sure it's the correct sensor for a BBW engine. You do know that O2 sensors are normal wear items right? That's like buying a used set of brake pads.


Yeah the part numbers matched and everything. Well if it is a bad one then I'm out $18.99. 

I checked on the engine speed sensor and it looked good to me. It had ohmage on the sensor it's self from prong 2 to 3 with little resistance. From 1 to 2 and 1 to 3 there was no reading. Then on the plug connected to the car two of the resistances read .4 and the other got down to .1. So I don't know what that means but it makes no sense that the screw that holds the sensor on is made of plastic.

So I got the VCDS-Lite but I they get it to me on Monday I think and 4 used fuel injectors and the o2 sensor and it will all come next week. Till then I will get the car looking spiffy.

Thanks.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

*Parts are in!*

Well I got a new rubber boot for the drive shaft and I hope it fits. It sure is a lot different. 

My stainless steel tubing is in for my exhaust and gee wiz is it heavy. Is .071" too thick for exhaust?

It is very likely that tomorrow the four used fuel injectors come and the used o2 sensor comes so I will put those in and see how my car runs.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

VCDS-Lite should just be a download, you should get it instantly.

The easiest way to check the crankshaft sensor is connect VCDS and look at measuring blocks. If you've got an RPM signal while cranking, it's good. Your car runs, so we know it works.

I'd check the wires and connections as opposed to the sensor itself with your problem. There's a (unlikely) possibility that there's a problem on the trigger wheel for the crankshaft sensor that's causing an erratic signal.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Anony00GT said:


> VCDS-Lite should just be a download, you should get it instantly.
> 
> The easiest way to check the crankshaft sensor is connect VCDS and look at measuring blocks. If you've got an RPM signal while cranking, it's good. Your car runs, so we know it works.
> 
> I'd check the wires and connections as opposed to the sensor itself with your problem. There's a (unlikely) possibility that there's a problem on the trigger wheel for the crankshaft sensor that's causing an erratic signal.


VCDS-Lite is in. It is prolly about 25 degrees outside so I may wait for Sunday with it's 48 degree temps to work on my car. I did check the resistance with the engine speed sensor wires and they didn't have any so I don't know what to think. 

The fuel injectors didn't come yesterday but I got a feeling that they will today.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

The new/used injectors came in the mail today and it was warm enough for me to work on my car. I put the new/used o2 sensor in and started the car and that didn't solve the misfire problem. I didn't have my laptop on me so I couldn't run VCDS-Lite. I can't wait to do that. So I started working on changing the fuel injectors and the o-rings on three different injectors were shot. I'm not sure what the sequence is on the installation of injectors is. Last time I attached them to the rail and then pressed all four of them into the manifold. But I was taking apart the air rail from the injectors and the plastic thing busted. I need to order that so I am out of commission on it till then. I can get it really shiny though.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

Well I got the drive shaft off today so I can put the new boot on and that's all the further I got. Tomorrow is supposed to be 42 degrees so I will try to finish that.


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## pooisgood2 (May 12, 2010)

The new/used airline comes on the earliest Wednesday, so I have been tackling this inner CV boot and the circlip is a pain in the ass to get off and I was reading the Bently Manual and it said that the driveshaft is pressed on the CV joint.


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