# Dual Nozzle Neuspeed Supercharger W/M injection info



## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

First let me send out a special thanks to Mike Plummer, a Snow Performance Dealer, he spent a lot of time on the phone with me working this out and Scott from USRT.

To recap what I was working on:
1997 VW Jetta with 2.0 liter 8 valve motor
Neuspeed Supercharger (M45 Eaton Blower)
2.4” pulley (this spins the blower very close to its max rpm)
Autotech 270 cam 
Autotech Catback Stainless Steel Exhaust
C2 motorsports stage 1 chip with matching 30# injectors

The reason for adding the Snow Kit was because the supercharger comes with a 2.8” pulley, producing about 5psi at redline. Switch to the 2.4” pulley raised boost to around 10psi at redline. This obviously led to a lot of heat and detonation issues.

So I decided on a stage 2 kit using the MAF signal as a basis for injection and used VagCom to monitor and log specific engine parameters to help me tune. I also decided to inject the fluid pre-blower to make installation easier and to help cool the blower itself. For anyone interested in reading how this got started here is a link to the original post. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...gcom-logs-quot-tweaking-quot-advice-requested If you read this you will see all of the hoops I had to jump through. All of the “hoops” were caused by several issues:
1. Just as I started really tuning this system the weather was just starting to do some wild temperature swings; 75 degrees on one day and 2 days later 45 degrees. This caused boost to increase by almost 3psi.
2. All of the gas stations where switching over to their “winter” gas blend
3. As I found out just recently, my 150psi pump was going bad. Luckily when it completely failed I was watching the IATs with my laptop and saw the air heating up very quickly.

Here is where I have a suggestion to Snow Performance, please release an analog flow gauge. This gauge doesn’t have to be part of a failsafe system just something to monitor flow would be great. Had I been able to see FLOW with a gauge and not DEMAND with an LED, I would have known last year that the pump was beginning to fail. Also analog because at a quick glance I can see “normal” or “abnormal” flow without taking my eyes off the road.

In the meantime, I purchased an AEM water flow gauge. Very easy install and shows me exactly how much I am flowing. Not only did this help me tune but also gives me instant info if something isn’t right.

I tested MANY single nozzle and dual nozzle configurations. I was told to take the car to quench and then back off slightly to provide maximum benefit and cooling. Mike and the Snow Performance tech told me when they do this then dyno the cars, the AFR drop is really close to what they consider ideal. This approach was more realistic for me because I didn’t have access to a dyno. The original post was my testing with the 150psi pump but to summarize, the only way I could quench with a single nozzle was with a 625ml. This produced MAJOR quench but a 375ml wouldn’t quench with 80% water so I decided to install a dual nozzle setup so I could flow in between a 375ml and a 625ml. 

When I installed my new 220psi pump I set my controller as follows: start voltage at 2.8v and the full voltage at 4.5v. I also ran a 50/50 mix (by volume) for all of the tests. The first test I ran was with one 225ml nozzle and one 100ml nozzle. This caused quenching and misfires at higher RPMs even with the full voltage turned up to 5v. So then I tested one 225ml nozzle and one 60ml nozzle, the car didn’t misfire but it did feel sluggish from 5000rpm and up and turning the controller full voltage to 5v made no improvement. Then I tested two other nozzle combinations, a 175ml + 60ml and 100ml + 60ml.

The 175ml+60ml gave me the best results; no sluggish feeling and decent IAT and detonation control. The 100ml+60ml combo didn’t feel better or worse, the detonation control was almost as good as the 175ml+60ml but the IAT would rise more while under boost. I decided to stick with the 175ml+60ml combo. 

According to the AEM gauge here are the peak flow numbers for the nozzle combinations:
225ml+100ml = 750ml/min
225ml+60ml = 675ml/min
175ml+60ml = 550ml/min
100ml+60ml = 400ml/min

I also turned up the pump pressure slightly to achieve a max flow around 600ml/min. This has produced no bogging so I left it there thinking this was the max fluid I could inject before feeling a power loss.

Although I have many logs of each nozzle, below is 1 for each of the nozzle combinations that I mentioned above:

Here is a brief log of when the pump failed. Wow detonation:









Log of 225ml+100ml. Blue bar is where water turned on.









Log of 225ml+60ml









Log of 175ml+60ml









Log of 100ml+60ml









If you’re interested, here is the car:

























And here is the install

















Pump location behind turn signal:









A little more info to come later tonight...


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

For those interested I tested using more or less meth than 50% meth (by volume).
1. Going to 60% meth allowed me to run the 225ml + 60ml without bogging
2. This gave me no improvement in IAT or knock sensor activity
3. With single nozzles or smaller dual nozzles, knock sensor activity was worse with meth higher than 50% (not enough water making it to the cylinders I would imagine)
3. Higher % water gave more detonation control
4. Below 30% meth didn't control the IAT as much
5. Best overall mix was 30%-50% meth. (With a 50% mix I needed to spray more than a 30% mix)

According to my flow gauge, a stage 2 progressive controller may not be a progressive as you may think. This has been supported by some info I found on line. Here: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-m...th-study-various-water-injection-systems.html

Here is a graph of what I have witnessed from my flow gauge:









Now for the real kicker. Without W/M my knock is worse when the ambient air temps are lower. Yes that is correct lower. I am going to show you two logs to demonstrate.

The first log is at 75 degree ambient air temps:









The second is at 40 degree air temps. This was a down shift to 3rd gear, wind it up, then shift to 4th and start to wind up:










Now my thoughts are that the colder air has increased my boost, which it has by 2-3 psi, to a level that is too much with the timing level for my engine. Or it could be that I am running lean. If the C2 stage 1 chip is good for 250hp as they say then I should be ok.

I still get more knock even with W/M when the ambient air temps get lower. More water/meth does not seem to improve this but when I tested this I only had the single nozzle so I was limited to the 375ml nozzle.

Thoughts?


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## naemcivic (Aug 22, 2010)

Did you jump the green/red wire to test spray pattern? I think my pump is going bad here also. it use to sound so loud, now I go through half of wm as what I use to go through.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

When I first saw the IAT climb and the knock go up, I tested the pump. I disconnected the controller and ran a power line from the battey to the green wire in the controller harness. The LED in the car turned on but the pump didn't. After I unplugged the 2 wires on the front of the pump and plugged them back in the pump started working. After driving the car, it stopped working again so I did the same thing with the wires. After several minutes of "wiggling" the wires it started working again. I do not know if the connections where really bad or if the something internally was going bad but I didn't feel like wasting more time or taking any more chances so I replaced the pump. The new pump has been working perfectly.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

After doing some more homework it appears that the tune maybe at fault for the cold weather knock increase. It seems that supercharger tunes generally decrease timing as IAT decreases to compensate for the increase in boost that occurs if the tune is aggressive. I do not think the tune is overly aggressive but my motor has always needed less timing advance than other ABAs. I do not know why this is.

In any case I put the car away for the winter so seeing really cold IAT is not common and I will keep in mind to not push too hard if the temps are really low.

I hope the info in this post is beneficial to someone.


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

are you happy with the 270 cam and NS SC? or is this _too big_ of a cam for SC boosting?


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