# TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10)



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Everyone:
I am really happy to see that VW of America has released a technical bulletin (TB) that addresses the problem of Eos front windows sometimes dropping down by themselves after the owner has left the car. As most of us guessed, this is caused by unwanted activation of the pinch protection system, and this unwanted activation is in turn caused by misalignment of the window.
It appears that the fix is pretty straightforward - the window regulator needs to be adjusted in order to make sure that the window travels upwards in the correct path, and to the correct height. There are several possible adjustments that can be made to the window regulator, and the process is too complex to explain simply here. It is, however, very well explained in the Eos Maintenance Manual.
In addition to the TB, which is attached as a PDF file below, I have attached illustrations that shows the desired dimensions of gaps and exact positions of the front and rear windows when they are properly adjusted. If you are encountering difficulty with your front window (there is a discussion of possible difficulties here: Passenger side window closing improperly), then likely this TB will contain the fix for your problem. If you are not encountering difficulty, but your dimensions don't match the diagram - leave well enough alone! If it ain't broke, don't fix it.








Michael
*Eos Front (Door) Window Dimensions*
*1)* The front, or 'door' glass window itself.
*2)* The windshield frame seal. _The window must be guided evenly into the frame seal at the two points identified by the letter A._
*3)* The door pillar seal (roof seal). _The window on the front doors must guide evenly into the door pillar seal between the upper and lower reference markings (4 and 5, below)_
*4)* The upper reference markings on the front door glass.
*5)* The lower reference markings on the front door glass.

-----------------------------------
*Eos Rear ('Side') Window Dimensions*
*1)* The rear, or 'side' glass window itself.
*2)* The front, or 'door' window (described above). _The upper edge of the rear side window should be as high as upper edge of the front door window when the roof is open. The aft edge of the rear side window must be guided evenly into the door pillar seal (item 3) and the rear window frame seal (item 4) at the two points 'B' illustrated._
*3)* The door pillar seal (roof seal). 
*4)* The rear window frame seal.
*5)* The lower reference markings on the rear side glass. The rear side window must fit into the door pillar seal (item 3) between this reference mark and the lower reference mark (item 6), as observed at arrows 'C'.
*6)* The upper reference markings on the rear side glass.
*7)* The side (intermediate) window seal. The front (item 1) and rear (item 2) windows should be parallel to each other, and the dimension allowed at point 'A' in the illustration is 9 mm ± 1mm.



_Modified by PanEuropean at 6:09 AM 12-17-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (PanEuropean)*

In another post (Wow look at all this Eos add on stuff - page 2), Jason raised some questions about how to install a storage bin underneath the front passenger seat. Because of the nature of the disassembly that has to be done, it is possible that he might have to disconnect the battery.
Whenever the battery is disconnected, the car loses its 'adaptation' or 'basic settings' for certain controllers. In any VW, electronic controllers can be divided into two broad categories: i) Those that require fine-tuning to each individual chassis, to allow for tiny dimensional variations, and ii) those that don't.
By example, if you install a new radio, or a new Park Distance Control controller, no calibration of that controller to the individual vehicle needs to be carried out. Those kind of controllers are simply 'plug and play'. However, if you install a controller that controls something that moves - for example, a power window - then you need to carry out an adaptation or basic setting process to fine tune the controller to your exact car. It's analogous to buying an off the rack suit - it needs to be fine-tuned to your individual body.
Eos window controllers need to have a basic settings procedure carried out once (when the controller is first installed) and - if they are like every other VW on the planet - anytime battery power is lost. The basic settings procedure for Eos window controllers is quite complex and entirely unique to the Eos - this procedure does not apply to any other VW model. Here are the steps to take to conduct a 'basic settings', or calibration of the Eos pinch protection system.
*1)* Start the engine and leave it running. This is important, because the procedure must be carried out with the normal power levels (voltage and amperage) that are present when the car is running.
*2)* Open the door and keep it open for the entire procedure.
*3)* Close the latch in the door. This fools the door into thinking that it is closed, even though it is open. Don't use your finger to do this unless you have spare fingers handy - use a trim tool.
*4)* Lower the window fully.
*5)* Raise the window, but block it with your hand as it raises. The window should reverse direction (lower).
*6)* Within 5 seconds of the above, raise the window again, and block it with your hand again. The window should simply stop this time.
*7)* Within 5 seconds of step 6, raise the window again, but this time don't interfere with it at all. It will raise - without any pinch protection being active - all the way up to the mechanical stop at the upper extension point of the window.
*8)* Within 5 seconds of step 7, hold the window switch (presumably in the up position, the repair manual is not specific about this) for a full 5 seconds. This causes the window motor to take note of exactly where the 'full up' position of the window is.
*9)* Open the latch in the door lock (the latch that you closed before). Presumably this is done by operating the door handle. The window will lower a 'short lift'.
*10)* Now close the door (normally close the door, don't fool it), and the window will rise up to the closed position. The work is now complete.
-----------------------------------------
There can be four possible outcomes if you have carried out the above procedure properly.
*a)* The door window moves upwards so that the markings stenciled onto the glass of the window (markings shown at points 4 and 5 in the very first illustration at the top of this thread) run into the door seal (roof seal) as they should. If this happens, break out the champagne, everything is working as it should work.
*b)* The window does not raise up high enough so that the two markings are in the correct place. If this happens, a mechanical adjustment of the window mechanism (window regulator) inside the door is required. Call your friendly VW dealer to book a service appointment, and don't plan on driving through any high pressure tunnel car washes until you get the window adjusted.








*c)* The window goes up too far, in other words, the lower of the two markings disappears into the roof seal... but, the window stays closed. This is not good news, the window mechanism in the door needs to be adjusted, same as in b) above. 
*d)* The window goes up too far, then reverses direction and comes back down. Same solution as b) and c) - the window mechanism in the door needs to be adjusted. But, in this particular case, you will have to carry out the 'basic settings' (items 1 to 10) all over again after the window mechanism is adjusted. The key issue is this: If the window reverses, then you need to both adjust the mechanism in the door, and do the basic settings all over again. If it doesn't reverse (as in outcome c, above), you just need to do the adjustment of the window mechanism inside the door.
Regards, Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (PanEuropean)*

Just a postscript here: Before you even think of carrying out the actions described in this TB, make sure you have fully lubricated all the roof seals (most especially the seals that the windows touch when they are fully closed) as instructed in this post: How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks.
The last thing you want to do is make a whole bunch of adjustments to your car, then find that the window and roof seals are hard as rocks because you did not follow the instructions in the Owner Manual for maintaining them.  When you lubricate the roof and window seals as illustrated in the above-referenced post, the seals soften up and grab the windows much more tightly. This will, obviously, affect how high (or low) the windows go when you run them to the full upright position, and it will also affect when and at what position pinch protection kicks in.
*In short:* Fully lubricate the roof and window seals, and let the car sit for an hour or so to let the seals soften up *before* you even dream about adjusting anything, as described in the TB. After the lubricant has soaked into the roof and window seals for about an hour, reset the pinch protection, then survey the situation. Chances are you will discover - to your delight - that you don't need to do any further work at all.
Michael


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## Funmobile (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (PanEuropean)*

Could a similar technique be used on the rear side windows? 
My rear driver-side window is too low. Even after holding the close switch for a few extra seconds, both etchings remain below the seal. As a result, there is a wind noise from that area at any speed over ~20 m.p.h. 
I'm wondering if I can adapt the procedure you describe to 
1. Lower the roof
2. Follow your steps (block window twice, then all the way up)
3. After the settings, raise the roof, and check the fit. 
The other option would be to just take it to the dealer and let them worry about it... (especially because I can see one etching on the front driver side window and heard a more subtle wind noise from there, too)
Any advice from people who tried this reset themselves? Did anybody do the rear windows?
BTW- The seals are soft, not chalky, although I do plan to purchase and apply krytox at my next visit. I've had the car for 4 days, it was watertight during a pretty hefty rainstorm, and no rattles.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (Funmobile)*

Hi David:
If I were you, I would let the dealer do the adjustment for you. Take the car back, ask them to lubricate all of the roof seals (or, alternatively, to give you a bottle of the lubricant so you can do the lubrication yourself), then ask them to address the window positioning problem for you.
For sure, you want to make sure the seals are fully and properly lubricated before you get into doing window adjustments, because fully lubricated seals are more pliable and thus have more 'give' to them when the window is closed. This will affect when and how the pinch protection feature kicks in.
The reason I recommend that you have your dealer do this work is simply because we, as a group of enthusiasts, don't have enough personal experience carrying out window pinch protection adaptations to be able to give you any wise advice based on our own experience. So, take the safest route - let the tech at the dealership handle it.
Michael


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## T-Tail (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (PanEuropean)*

Question:
How does VW handle their TB's when they're released? In the flying world, when a "Time Compliance Technical Order" (TCTO) is released for a particular airplane, the whole fleet has to inspected/fixed/changed/etc within a given time period. I imagine recalls are handled in this way, but what about the TB's? Is it more of a "hey, if someone complains about this, here's how to fix it"?
The reason I ask is because I made a special effort to have the dealer ensure all recalls, etc, were performed on my Eos (which I love...save that for another post) before I picked it up last week. As I put my wife in the car when leaving the dealership, the passenger side window pinched the seal and rolled down ~12 inches, right in front of the service consultant!







Couldn't get it to repeat then, but it's happened a few times since.
With this new TB out, should this procedure have already been done? Or not until a problem is discovered? I guess I thought since the change was out and the problem well known, I wouldn't have this issue.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (T-Tail)*

Hello Tyler:
Here is a comparison chart between the automotive world and the aviation world:
*Recall* _(automotive world)_ *=* *Airworthiness Directive *_(aviation world)_
Recalls are quite rare events. I think there is a recall in progress right now for brake light switches on some Golf and Jetta products. I have never heard of a recall on an Eos or a Phaeton. When a recall is issued, every registered owner of a vehicle gets a letter in the mail from the manufacturer or importer of the car. The cars are also flagged in the dealer's computer system. The federal government is notified. Recalls never expire - if you took a 1972 Pinto in to a Ford dealer today, they would carry out the exploding gas tank recall if it had not yet been done. Recalls are issued for matters that affect _safety _of the vehicle.
*Required Vehicle Update (RVU) = Mandatory Service Bulletin*
Automotive companies - at least Volkswagen, anyway - use the term 'campaign' to describe what the aviation world would refer to as a SB. There are two types of SB's in the aviation world, mandatory and discretionary. If an automotive campaign is mandatory, it is called a RVU. An example of this is the RVU to carry out a software flash on certain VIN numbers of Eos vehicles. RVUs are not quite as serious as recalls, therefore, the government (NHTSB, NTSB, FMVSS folks, whoever it is in your country) are not involved. But, the manufacturers want these RVUs carried out, so the VINs are flagged in the dealer computer system, and the RVU will be done the next time the car is brought in to the dealer for any reason. Generally speaking, RVUs are issued for anything that affects _legal compliance_, or anything that could affect _dependability _of the vehicle for transport.
*TB with polite request for work to be done = Non-mandatory Service Bulletin*
Something that the manufacturer recommends be done and, like the above two items, is also willing to pay for out of their own pocket, but not something that is quite as serious as a RVU. For example, something to improve the quality of the sound that comes from the CD player or radio. These are items that affect _customer satisfaction _with the vehicle.
*Technical Bulletin = Service Letter*
TB's are a way to disseminate information to technicians - for example, elaboration about how to perform a task more easily, or how to troubleshoot a problem most efficiently, or perhaps simply a more detailed explanation of how something works than was originally published in the maintenance manual. TBs can also be used to convey Campaign or RVU information, but not all TBs are Campaigns or RVUs, if you get what I mean.
Hope this puts it in perspective.
Michael (ATPL, AME/IA)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T-Tail* »_...when leaving the dealership, the passenger side window pinched the seal and rolled down ~12 inches, right in front of the service consultant...
With this new TB out, should this procedure have already been done? 

In this particular case, no. The TB that addressed the problem of windows coming down uncommanded (this post refers: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (TB 64-06-10)) did not mandate any action be carried out on any vehicle unless the vehicle displayed the symptom that the TB described. In other words, that particular TB was what you would call a SL - *if *you encounter this problem, *then *this is how you fix it most efficiently. It was coincidental (and embarrassing) that you first encountered the problem whilst taking delivery of the vehicle.
However - speaking directly to your problem, I strongly recommend that you DO NOT perform any adjustment, including the adjustment described in that TB, until you have lubricated the roof seals - in particular, the seals that the top edge of the windows butt up against, and the seal between the forward and aft side windows - as described in this post: How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks. Lubricating the seals will soften them up and result in more 'yield' when the top of the window hits the seal. It is probable that this will solve the uncommanded downward motion problem, simply because the window will not encounter sufficient resistance to invoke pinch protection if the seal is nice, soft, and properly lubricated.
I recommend you troubleshoot your problem in the following sequence:
*1)* Apply lubricant as described in the above-referenced post, then drive the car for a week or so and see how things work out. Note that it may take a few days for the seals to take a new 'set' after lubricating them all, for this reason, you don't want to jump right into adaptation or adjustment the same day you lubricate the seals.
*2)* If (and only if) you encounter phantom window operation, re-adapt the window regulators as described in that TB, then after re-adapting them, check to see if the position of the little lines silk-screened on the top of the fore and aft side windows is within spec. 
*3)* Only after carrying out a re-adaptation (re-calibration of window travel and resetting of pinch protection), and then only if the position of the little lines is out of spec, perform the adjustment described in the TB.
Michael


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## T-Tail (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (PanEuropean)*

Wow, incredibly detailed response, as always!
I guess my real frustration is why aren't the cars delivered with properly lubricated seals? Why should the buyer be responsible for ensuring the car works as advertised before even taking it off the dealer's lot?







I'm a pretty "take good care of your car" kind of guy, but this one irks me.
Anyway, good advice and we'll try it. From what I can see, the window is simply not going down far enough to clear the seal; when it doesn't pinch itself, it still flogs (now there's a word you don't use every day) the seal pretty hard.
Thanks again...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (T-Tail)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T-Tail* »_...why aren't the cars delivered with properly lubricated seals? 

That's a tough question that none of us have the answer for yet. I kind of suspect that there is more to it that we are aware of, and I hope to speak to some folks at the Eos factory in Portugal this spring and get a full engineering explanation.
Right now, it *appears *(based on the limited information that we can piece together as owners) that not all Eos need to have the seals lubricated before delivery to the customer. So, there has to be some variable at play here - length of time the car is stored before it is sold, how and where it is stored (e.g. sunny, windy environment vs. indoors), what kind of chemicals it is washed with, thing like that.
Some VW dealers, such as my own VW dealer, have learned from experience that it makes the most sense to lubricate the roof seals on the day the car is delivered to the customer, without regard to whether or not the roof seals need to be lubricated. This is a fairly proactive, cautious approach to things. However, it is entirely possible that since the dry seal problem started showing up on some cars last fall, the factory in Portugal may have changed their production process to add more lubrication, or better preserve lubrication, or whatever.
Bottom line is, we don't know the full story, so it would be kind of reckless to speculate. We're not even sure if the basic premise of the question (cars are or are not delivered with properly lubricated roof seals) is correct or not.
Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (T-Tail)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T-Tail* »_
I guess my real frustration is why aren't the cars delivered with properly lubricated seals? .

Hi Tyler,
As per Michael's response above, seal maintenance is a work in progress so to speak. Many of us here feel the same as you "_it's as oblivious as the nose on your face, adjust the way you are doing things_".
Right now we are raising awareness through the forum, the hopes are that VW is monitoring the forum and making note of our observations and listening to members suggestions. 
Michael's VW dealership has "bought into" seal maintenance, and I'm certain they have communicated their findings to VW in some way or another.
Michael is ever diligent in seeking answers and solutions on our behalf.
Hopefully, given some time to review all the facts from all sources, VW will reach the correct conclusion on seal maintenance. 
Many of us hope that conclusion includes adjusting the PDI process to include lubricating the seals as required, and including seal inspection/lubrication as part the regular maintenance schedule. Such a decision would ensure reliable seal performance for the many Eos owners that are not as hands on as most of the enthusiasts here on the forum.
Time will tell.
Kevin










_Modified by just4fun at 7:44 PM 3-5-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_Many of us hope that conclusion includes adjusting the PDI process to include lubricating the seals as required...

Hi Kevin:
Based on what we (the group) has discovered so far, that conclusion certainly seems to make sense. However, one thing that I learned really well during the course of 2+ years of moderating the Phaeton forum and making visits to the assembly plant in Dresden every three months to meet with the Quality Control and Engineering staff is that there is almost always a good reason behind how and why the assembly plants do things. 
If the Eos assembly plant engineers have not dictated to the importers that the seals should be lubricated as part of PDI, then there is probably a good reason why - we just have not yet learned what that reason is. By the same token, the problems we are having with seals in North America could be related to some other factor that doesn't affect cars in Europe. Transportation and storage come to mind as possible variables.
Hopefully, I will be able to get the answer to the lubrication question (and many others) in Portugal sometime during the second half of April or in early May. In the meantime, though, let's continue to stay open-minded, and not be too quick to try and make judgements. I note that VW in Germany has started an initiative to proactively lubricate roof seals on some Eos vehicles the next time that they come in for service, but that initiative only affects certain VIN numbers, and they have not gone so far as to ask that roof seals be lubricated prior to delivery. This strongly suggests that we (the forum participants) still don't know the whole story, although it is safe to assume that we have figured out how to solve water leaks if and when they occur.
I also quite doubt that lubricating the seals as a preventative measure at the time of new car delivery (as my own VW dealer has chosen to do) has any negatives associated with it, but that alone doesn't mean it is something that we should automatically assume everyone should do.
Looking back again at Phaeton experience, it took us (the owners and forum participants) about a year to get a really good handle on everything, by that I mean the exact hows, whys, and whens, explained by the engineers in the plant who build the car. Let's be patient, I am sure that by the beginning of the summer, we will be at least twice as far ahead as we are now, and we have sure learned a lot in the last 3 months.








Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: TB: Phantom operation of Eos front windows (PanEuropean)*

Hi Micheal,
As usual, you have said it better than me, but that's pretty much what I was trying to put accross. 'it may seem oblivious to us, but give VW some time, and they will come up the correct procedure"
Kevin








Who knows, maybe they'll weary of me beakin' off all the time and implement a change just to shut me up!


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

My two cents:
The service department at my local dealership really like to talk about cars. Any cars. Actually, I've found them very knowledgeable about the VWs and wasn't surprised to find out that they knew alot about the EOS. 
I was told that, need it or not, all EOS cars will be lubricated upon entering the service center as part of the regular maintenance schedule. You pay for an oil change, so they are going to do the oil on the seals too.
My service adviser was shocked to see me purchasing a bottle of the lubricant. He asked why I was spending the $80 when the shop will do it for me. He commented that the bottle would last me forever, as it was meant to be a shop stocked part for service department use. 
Upon further talk, they were trained to use only a tiny tiny amount on the seals. Instead of a long line of lubricant all along the seal, they put only a small dot every few inches. Apparently, this is to ensure that there is not an "excess" of oil that might run onto paint or windows in a heavy rain.
The service guy's words, "better to do small amounts on a regular basis than too much once ni a while."
So, I guess it is a good thing to add to the lubricating your seals. Only use that much if the seals are really dry with lots of white showing. but a little less if they are mostly lubricated and just going after keeping them soft. Perhaps the oil will last longer after all.
Overall, however, I wanted to say that I was impressed with the people I've talked to in the dealership. I'm trying to generate the same rapport with them that Michael has with his; this is going to take time and a fair amount of friendly chatter (not to mention the $$$ I'll spend with them)








Cowell Motors is the name of the dealership, for those in the Richmond/Vancouver area. They are straight up and I'm happy with their service.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (EOSmage)*

Jonathan,
Sounds like you are fortunate to be dealing with a very savvy group at your dealership. I think they are taking a very common sense approach to seal maintenance.
Kudos to them for being so proactive!!
Kevin


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## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: (EOSmage)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EOSmage* »_My service adviser was shocked to see me purchasing a bottle of the lubricant. He asked why I was spending the $80 when the shop will do it for me. He commented that the bottle would last me forever, as it was meant to be a shop stocked part for service department use. 
Upon further talk, they were trained to use only a tiny tiny amount on the seals. Instead of a long line of lubricant all along the seal, they put only a small dot every few inches. Apparently, this is to ensure that there is not an "excess" of oil that might run onto paint or windows in a heavy rain.
The service guy's words, "better to do small amounts on a regular basis than too much once ni a while."

You should post this to the How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks thread. There's been discussion there about the oil from lubricated seals rubbing off on the luggage cover or people's clothing. Maybe the trick is to use less.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (flubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flubber* »_There's been discussion there about the oil from lubricated seals rubbing off on the luggage cover or people's clothing.

Flubber:
Just to prevent any misunderstanding from starting, the comment you refer to was from Maxdot, who used a *grease *based lubricant (Krytox in a grease format, not an oil format) on his seals. The Eos owner manual recommends that you use the VW Part number G 052 172 *A1* product, which is an oil in liquid form. You can also use G 052 172 *A2*, which is the same oil but in an aerosol form. You *must not use* suffix _A3_, which is the same lubricant but in a grease form.
If you use A1 or A2, you will have residue on the glass and paint, however, the fix is simple: After applying the lubricant, leave the car at room temperature or higher (in other words, not outside at freezing temperatures) for about an hour to let all the excess that is going to run off actually run off, then wash the car normally with car soap and water. That will get rid of 90% of the runoff, because the oil is not designed to adhere to non-porous surfaces (NB: The sole purpose in life of grease based lubricants *is *to adhere to non-porous surfaces). Then, use a paper towel dampened with windshield washer fluid to get rid of the remaining 10%. The car will then be perfectly clean.
Michael


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## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flubber* »_There's been discussion there about the oil from lubricated seals rubbing off on the luggage cover or people's clothing. Maybe the trick is to use less.


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Just to prevent any misunderstanding from starting, the comment you refer to was from Maxdot, who used a *grease *based lubricant (Krytox in a grease format, not an oil format) on his seals.

Actually, the luggage cover comment was from vweosdriver, who I believe bought the official VW product from his dealer. And you've mentioned transfer issues as a reason not to lubricate the seals for cars that are going to be kept in showrooms. It's possible that transfer is a sign that too much oil is being used, so I thought it worth noting that EOSmage's service advisors use much less than half a bottle per treatment.
I don't know whether they got that idea from VW training or came up with it on their own, but it's an interesting data point. It's also possible that they're using too little, but as long as we're all still figuring this out, the technique described by EOSmage may be worth experimenting with. If nothing else, if equivalent results can be achieved with less oil, the cost of the oil will be even more reasonable.


_Modified by flubber at 7:29 AM 3-7-2007_


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

*Oil Amounts*

I examined the car in the dealer's showroom a week or two ago and noticed that the seals were not dry (they were not showing signs of the white spots). They were not, however, showing signs of being "wet" or moist. 
I waited until no one was looking and proceeded to examine the seals more closely. I found them to be soft and pliable, but when I took my fingers away after touching them, noticed that they were not slimed by the oil. 
I think that is what the service technician was trying to say, and also what the EOS specialists were trained for. Keep the seals soft, but not slimy to the touch. 
The key point that I got from the technician is that experience will eventually dictate how much oil is required to get to that optimum spot. I know that I might have been a little over-eager with my first loob-job because I noticed the oil dripped off in a couple of spots (no long term damage, but a reason to pause and think about oil volume).
I should also say that the original "how to oil your seals" post from Michael was perfect. In his pictures, the seals were so dry that they were not dotted with white spots but almost solid white/gray. 
My post was not intended to cause disruption between us, as we need to work together for the betterment of our VWs. I just wanted to forward the point made by my service tech; "it is better to put too little oil on the seals and have to apply more than to be mopping up runoff afterwards."


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## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: (flubber)*

I have bought the liquid OEM product from my dealer but haven't used it yet. I first bought the grease from an after market source. I probably did apply too much as I thought it would be quickly absorbed, but that is a slower process than reported when using the liquid form.


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## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: (vweosdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vweosdriver* »_ I have bought the liquid OEM product from my dealer but haven't used it yet. I first bought the grease from an after market source. I probably did apply too much as I thought it would be quickly absorbed, but that is a slower process than reported when using the liquid form. 

Ah, my mistake then. I could definitely see the grease having more of a problem with transfer than the oil.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (flubber)*

I was at my VW dealer today (getting the 40K mile service done on my Phaeton), and had a chance to watch the PDI person apply lubricant to a new Eos that is being picked up on Friday. It was the fourth Eos he has done, so he has all the tricks figured out.
It seems that the trick is this: Lubricate the car as illustrated in the other thread (How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks), leave the vehicle inside with the roof down for about an hour to let everything soak in, then gently wipe all the seals with a soft, dry cotton cloth (e.g. a dry facecloth) to remove any excess lubricant.
That yielded a very nice result - smooth, shiny seals, but nothing left over (hopefully) to drip. I am going to guess, though, that after the car is parked overnight with the roof up, it will need one more wipe with the dry towel to catch drips that fall down from where the seal disappears up under the metal body. If you really do a good job, and get the lubricant everywhere on the seal (not only on the visible surface, but up underneath where the seal disappears as well), then a few drips will be inevitable. Such is life...








My VW dealer is now 'sold out' of Eos, so, I am going to need to find someone in the North Toronto area who has an Eos I can use for technical photo purposes. Any volunteers?
Michael


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## Gadgeteer1066 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Re: seals and lubrication*

This thread is probably migrating across to be more about the seals than the window adjustment, but in response to the comments above, I did not have a good experience on buying my car and the service dept. were very defensive over what they should/didn't do during the pdi.
However, I had cause to ring the dealer (service dept) over something else and happened to mention noisy seals. He said straight away 'Oh they need lubricating with a special oil. We have one man who is trained how to do it and he likes to take his time over it, so it would best be in for the whole day, although you might get it back sooner.'
It's nice to see the issue coming to the notice of the dealers, who no doubt have been learning their way through the car's foibles in the same way we are in here.


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

I have noticed a different problem. Inserting the key to unlock the car and holding it rolls down the windows, but both front windows stop with about 1/8" protruding above the "lip." Sometimes it is just the driver's side. However, if I release the key and then turn and hold it again the windows fully retract. The sales rep at the dealership where I did not buy the Eos (5 miles away, no traffic) says this is normal and the service rep there did not know anything about it. The assistant service manager at the dealership where I bought it (25 miles away with traffic) said that it needs to be fixed, but to wait for 1000 to 2000 miles and then bring in the vehicle to adjust everything.
Also, there was at least one occasion when using the key that the rear windows stopped rolling down with about 3 to 4 inches above the sill. Again, the assistant service manager said the cables were stretching, etc. and to bring it back after 1000 miles or so.
Any ideas on whether the windows should fully retract below the sill when using the key?
Also, I'm in a dilemma. I like the local dealership's service rep. He's a young guy and I think is very motivated to do a good job and I can get to the dealership in less than 10 minutes. But, they wouldn't oil the seals on the windows without a technical bulleting from VW. On the other hand, the assistant service manager at the dealership where I bought my Eos said, "why would we charge you for this?" Of course, he might not have known of the expense of Krytox. Anyway, my last (rather off topic) question is, should I go with the local service department for convenience or with the remove one because that's where I bought the car? I've only had the car two weeks. It has been serviced one time by the local, but not by the remote. Is there a disadvantage in getting service from the local since I didn't buy the car there?
Any advice?
Thanks,
Branton


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: (blachman)*

Blachman: It is totally personal preference. Take your car to whichever dealer "feels" right. In the end, as both dealers are trained by VW to support the car, the real difference is in how they treat you.
20 miles isn't really that much of an inconvenience if you are happier with the service that they have given you. Knowing that they are willing to handle the seal lubrication on your behalf might also make it worth the extra drive.
Besides, we all bought the EOS because it is great to drive, right? What's 20 miles when behind the wheel of a great car?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (blachman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blachman* »_Is there a disadvantage in getting service from the local since I didn't buy the car there?

Hi Branton:
I can't answer whether or not there is a 'disadvantage' in taking the car to a different dealer for service, however, there is one observation you have to think about:
You didn't buy the car from Volkswagen. You bought the car from ABC Motors. ABC Motors bought it from Volkswagen. So, if you now want to take the car to XYZ Motors for service, it's really up to XYZ to decide if they want to have you as a customer.
The VW dealers - whether they are in the UK, Germany, North America, wherever - are all independent businesses. Normally, you take the car to the place that you bought it from to have it serviced. You can take it elsewhere, provided that both you and the other dealer wish to do business with each other - but the other dealer (XYZ Motors) really has no obligation to support you if you bought the car from ABC Motors.
So, be totally sure that XYZ Motors really wants your custom in their service department before you make the switch.
Michael


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

Michael:
I would think that dealer service departments welcome most vehicles, as that is where they usually make the majority of their money.
I've only ever heard of one person being asked not to return to a dealer's service department. In that particular case, it was because the person was-- wording this correctly is hard-- not a nice person. 
I originally thought that Chevy would ask me not to come back when they saw the modifications I'd made to my Trailblazer. But they were really interested in it and provided excellent continued support for the vehicle. 
I think it would be safe to say that dealers will not turn away business that walks in their door unless there are some really severe reasons for doing so.
--Jon


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman]*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_So, be totally sure that XYZ Motors really wants your custom in their service department before you make the switch.

Thank-you, EOSmage, Michael and Jon for your advice.
Michael, your last point is the issue I was concerned about. So, how do I find out if XYZ Motors really wants my custom? If I just ask them they'd probably give the standard customer answer of "Yes, certainly we do."


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (blachman)*

Jonathan, Branton:
It can be a tricky issue, especially if the customer switches right after purchase, to a nearby dealer, and warranty work needs to be done.
On the other hand, if your car is a couple of years old, you get a new job that is right across the street from a VW dealer, and you take the car to the dealer across the street for an oil change, it's a non-issue.
Just pay attention to nuance when you are talking with the service staff at the new dealership that you propose to take the car to. Ask them outright - "Is it OK with you that I bring the car here for service, even though I bought it down the street?" Then listen very carefully to what they say.
Michael


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (PanEuropean)*

Thanks, Michael.
I will talk to them on Wednesday and let you know what happened.
Branton


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

Oops. One more thing. I've received good advice on choosing the service dealer, but my first question remains unanswered. Here it is again:
I have noticed a different problem with the windows than what I've seen described. Inserting the key to unlock the car and holding it rolls down the windows, but both front windows stop with the driver's side about 1/8" protruding above the "lip" and the passenger side about 1/4". However, if I then release the key and then turn and hold it again the windows fully retract the remaining distance and go below the sill. Is this normal or should the windows fully retract with only one key turn?


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## EOSmage (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_It can be a tricky issue, especially if the customer switches right after purchase, to a nearby dealer, and warranty work needs to be done.

This is true. Actually, it is something that I never thought of before. I'm in a similar situation too, where I bought the car at one location and want service at another.
I stopped into the dealership this morning on the way to work, had a wonderful chat with them about this. They thought it was funny that I'd be worried about it-- in fact, they said that they expected this to happen with the EOS because of delivery delays. Many dealers have them sitting in their showrooms, while my local one has a waiting list. They know that people will get the cars from the place that can deliver quickly, and they had no problem with it.
I commented that my car was working fine and had no warranty issues, so there was no "unusual reasons" for me to be switching to the local dealer other than they are nice, friendly, and close by. The answer to this was, "Great, however, we get paid to do warranty work, so even if you do have any future issues, don't worry!"
Overall, I'll bet most places maintain the same feeling. Besides, they've won a loyal customer.
As a side note, they actually gave me a "voucher" for a breakfast at the local cafe. The service guy mentioned something about "noone should be up this early without having a free breakfast."
LOL http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for customer service...
--Jon


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## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (EOSmage)*

My local dealer could not match a trade price. In the end my local dealer manager sent me an email *inviting* me to serivce at his dealer. He even would give free inspection if I used their license plate bracket.


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (gdevitry)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blachman* »_I will talk to them on Wednesday and let you know what happened.

As promised, here is my experience. I had met with Matthew, the service advisor, on Saturday and, following Michael's advice, asked him if their service department would mind my bringing in my EOS for warranty work since I didn't buy my car from them. He said certainly not and was very interested in what were my issues. I gave him a list of my concerns and we made an appointment for me to drop off my car Wednesday about 5 p.m. My concerns were:
1. Windows do not always clear the roof seal
2. Front windows require two key clicks to fully lower
3. Windshield wind screen handle sometimes sticks when trying to raise/lower it.
4. Speedometer seems to read too fast [I've read Michael's post on the 7% discrepancy, but even so . . . )
5. Sunroof does not seem to open fully
6. Sometimes a lag with DSG when starting from a stop, sometimes hear a thump
7. Seals look dry.
On Wednesday I brought in my car. Matthew remembered me and already had the service order in the computer and printed up. They gave me a rental car (the Enterprise guy picked me up, I paid tax and gas) and also agreed to treat all the seals with VW's brand of Krytox 105. Matthew said it took a lot of e-mails to get the okay on treating the seals.
Thursday, Matthew called and asked me if it would be convenient for me to come down a little early. He wanted to take me back to the service bay, speak with the technician and make sure that all my concerns were satisfied. I did come in early and spent about 45 minutes, including a test drive, with both Matthew and the service technician.
Here are the results:
1. Windows do not always clear the roof seal - Could not demonstrate the problem, especially after applying the Krytox.

2. Front windows require two key clicks to fully lower - The windows lower to the lip of the sill by key or door switch. If you turn the key again or press the door switch again, they lower below the seal. This seems to be the correct program. We went to another EOS on the lot and it did the same thing.
3. Windshield wind screen handle sometimes sticks when trying to raise/lower it. - It seemed fine to them, but they have ordered a new one and will replace it.
4. Speedometer seems to read too fast [I've read Michael's post on the 7% discrepancy, but even so . . . ) - They measured both in the shop and on the road. They said that the equipment measures in kilometers, not miles. So, for the road test two service technicians took the car - one driving, one observing (I don't remember what instrument or reading they were taking at that time). They found only a 1/2 kilometer per hour discrepancy when traveling 30 miles per hour. By the way, they had already made the software change from the speedometer Technical Bulletin a week earlier when I had first brought in the car. I guess people on my freeway are generally traveling close to 80 mph when traffic is clear (and sometimes when it's crowded!)
5. Sunroof does not seem to open fully - the picture in the manual shows the sunroof fully extended, but does not state that this is during the process of opening up the top. Again, we checked the one of the other EOSs on the lot and it opened the same distance as mine.
6. Sometimes a lag with DSG when starting from a stop, sometimes hear a thump - It's like a pet. It only performs when no one else is around. The service technician rode with me and I could not demonstrate it. He was aware of the DSG Technical Bulletin and said that it only applied if certain errors were present, which are not present in my EOS. Funny thing, it happened a couple of times when I drove it back to work. I think the problem is very much intermittent, may be more in the automatic mode than in DSG, and may be a function of engine temperature and heavy/light foot. As far as being in DSG mode, I originally thought it was a sudden acceleration from a stop, but today it seemed to occur when easing down on the accelerator. It seems like there is a pause and then a surge. The service technician said it is normal for there to be a slight lag when in automatic mode. At this point I think it is just a characteristic of the EOS, but will watch for future reports from other drivers as more cars get sold.
7. Seals look dry - When I first took in the car the service department stated that they could not lube the seals as a warranty item without direction from VW. I was impressed that between the time I had originally called that first time and when I had come in later that day that Matthew, the service advisor, had researched the item and had some information from one of the vwvortex threads (but not the same one I had that had Michael's extended instructions). However, he agreed to keep checking it out. The upshot is, they bought the krytox, lubed my car and gave me the rest of the bottle.
Final impressions: Matthew worked very hard to address my concerns. He and the technicians took their time with the car and with me. I got progress phone calls. They gave me a rental car, lubed the seals with Krytox, gave me the rest of the bottle, and washed my car before I took it home. There was no problem at all with the fact that I had previously walked away from a deal for this car (because of a misunderstanding over financing) from this dealership (by the way, my EOS was not on the lot, they would have got it from another dealership) and 4 days later I bought it from another dealership 30 miles away (perhaps where they would have got it?). There was very little waiting time, I was acknowledged right away and the work was done when promised. Needless to say, I am very impressed with their dedication to service, patience with me and passion for excellence and I'll be happy to recommend them to anyone in my area.
So, to make a long story short - from my experience there is no problem in purchasing an EOS from one dealership and getting it service from another dealership - even when both are relatively close by - at least if the servicing dealership is the one I am using!
Branton


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (blachman)*

Hi Branton:
Thanks for your comprehensive report. 
Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (blachman)*

Branton,
Excellent post. Great to hear you had such a positive experience with your chosen dealership.
Kevin


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## gdevitry (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (blachman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blachman* »_
2. Front windows require two key clicks to fully lower
Branton 

Hi Branton,
Did you have the 'Single Door' convenience setting OFF? (with this off, both Driver/Passenger doors unlock)
Greg


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Choosing a Service Dealer [was blachman] (gdevitry)*

Hi Greg,
Well, I'm a little confused. I went to Convenience/Conv mode and there was a checkmark next to "off." But, a single key click only unlocks the driver's side. A second turn unlocks the passenger door. This seems at odds with your post.
By the way, the owner's manual is very sparse with the meaning of all the convenience settings. Do you or anyone have a resource that is more user friendly (at least for me).
Anyway, it's not the locking or unlocking that I am questioning. Even if I am inside the car and use the door switch to lower, for example, just the driver's side, the window will lower until its top edge is even with the door sill and then stop. You can still see the top of the window because it is even with the sill. However, if you press the door switch a second time (you may have to wait a second) the door top will then lower beneath the sill. I can also demonstrate this by inserting the key and holding it in the unlock position. Here, all four windows will (after a moment) lower to the sill and stop. If I release holding the key and then turn it again to the unlock position and hold it all the windows drop below the sill out of sight. When I was at the dealership yesterday we tried this on another Eos on the sales line and the same thing happened.
Finally, when inside the car and shutting off the engine both front windows (I'm not sure about the back ones) drop as they are supposed to so to relieve pressure on the sills. But, I can then put my hand on the top of the window, press moderately and the window will drop about another 1/4" (although it is still "up.") I think I got the idea to try this by reading another post on either this or some other thread where the poster had the same phenomenon.
Have you or anyone else seen this? And again, I'd appreciate any help in getting more information in decoding the meaning of all the convenience settings.
Thanks.
Branton


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (blachman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blachman* »_I have noticed a different problem with the windows than what I've seen described. Inserting the key to unlock the car and holding it rolls down the windows, but both front windows stop with the driver's side about 1/8" protruding above the "lip" and the passenger side about 1/4". However, if I then release the key and then turn and hold it again the windows fully retract the remaining distance and go below the sill. Is this normal or should the windows fully retract with only one key turn?

I hadn't noticed this before reading your post. Checked the window operation today and it is exactly as you describe.
Kevin


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (just4fun)*

Kevin, Branton:
I don't think you should worry too much about the window not going down the last 1/8 of an inch when you operate the window by using the key blade in the door lock. Keep in mind that when you operate the window with the key blade in the door lock, you are bypassing the normal "auto-up" and "auto-down" functions of the window - in other words, the windows will only continue to move as long as you maintain pressure on the door lock assembly.
My guess (speculation, but educated speculation) is that because you are not using the full authority of the window controller to operate the window (the controller is working in sort of a 'restricted' mode), it is possible that the window is stopping prematurely on purpose - perhaps to ensure that it stops, whilst under manual control, prior to the highest point that could possibly be the 'learned limit'.
If I were you, I wouldn't report this as a snag to the dealer. If you do, they are going to go digging without really knowing what they have to look for. My guess is that if the behaviour you are seeing is by design, there will be a note about it in the next revision of the owner manual (the MY 2008 owner manual), and if the behaviour is not by design, then it might get corrected in an omnibus software update (an Eos service pack, so to speak) that would probably get published between 12 and 18 months after the start of production of the car.
If you start to hear of other owners that are seeing exactly the same behaviour from their car, then for sure don't raise it as a problem at the dealership, because then you will KNOW it is common behaviour across the fleet.
Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Kevin, Branton:
I don't think you should worry too much about the window not going down the last 1/8 of an inch when you operate the window by using the key blade in the door lock.
Michael

I'm not worried about it, just indicating mine operates the same way, so it is another indication this is likely normal operation. (ie. same operation, different market region)
Kevin


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
I'm not worried about it, just indicating mine operates the same way, so it is another indication this is likely normal operation. (ie. same operation, different market region)
Kevin









Thanks, Kevin. It's good to know I don't have a mutant EOS. 
Michael - as always you have great advice. Maybe a little late for me, but no harm done. I did report this to the dealer and the way they approached it was to check another EOS on the lot and verify the same thing. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Michael* »_If you start to hear of other owners that are seeing exactly the same 
behaviour from their car, then for sure don't raise it as a problem at 
the dealership, because then you will KNOW it is common behaviour across 
the fleet.

I do have a question, though, Michael. If this is a widespread problem among EOS owners and we don't report it, how would VW know it's a problem?
Branton


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (blachman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blachman* »_I do have a question, though, Michael. If this is a widespread problem among EOS owners and we don't report it, how would VW know it's a problem?

Volkswagen staff do follow the forums quite carefully. My experience in the Phaeton forum is that the staff at the assembly plant in Dresden watch the forum *really *carefully, and I do know that VW of America has staff assigned to follow the forums.
This is one of the reasons behind why I want to try and keep the forum both courteous and solution-focused. If the staff at VW (both the assembly plant and at the various importers) see that we are a courteous group of people who are focused on solving problems, not focused on whining and disparaging the product, then they are usually more than willing to help us out (quietly, behind the scenes) when we are trying to get a problem solved. This has been proven many times over on the Phaeton forum - we have a very good relationship, based on mutual respect, with the staff at the factory and the staff at various VW importers around the world. They have always given us (the owners) truly amazing support and encouragement.
As for the window stopping 1/8 of an inch above the door when it is lowered using the key in the door lock cylinder - I'm still not convinced that is a 'problem'. It is an anomaly, for sure, but chances are that there is a sound engineering reason behind that behaviour... someone just has to ask the staff at the assembly plant in Portugal what the reason is, and when they tell us, we'll all enjoy an 'Ah-ha' moment. FYI, I hope to visit the Eos assembly plant in Portugal sometime in late April.








Michael


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## blachman (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Very informative, Michael. Thanks again for the great insight and advice.
Branton


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## T-Tail (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: Window Issues*

After a few weeks of ownership I took my EOS in yesterday. It's almost funny how I've had almost every single seal/window problem described in this forum: Pinched sunroof seals, phantom window operation, pinched passenger window seals resulting in rolldown, etc. No leaking, though, and that's in the Pacific Northwest, where its been raining more than usual this spring!
Showed the service manager my problems (all three demonstrated themselves nicely for him...nothing's worse than a "could not duplicate" situation







). He's committed to getting them fixed via lubrication and realignment processes. I recommended this forum and Michael's excellent lubrication demo/photo's. Naturally, I got a little of the "what's covered under warranty" dialogue, but I think they'll take care of me pretty well.
What I found interesting was the difference between how much my windows roll down during door opening/closing and how much I saw on another EOS in the showroom. The top was down on their car, but the passenger windo was rolled up to show the sticker. When opening and closing the car, the window rolled down quite a bit more than mine do. Has there been a change implemented? We're talking about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch vs 1/4 inch on my car. Those familiar with the problem will recognize how much of a difference that can make when you close the door and try to clear the seal.
I know about the marks on the windows, and my windows seem to lower enough to expose them, but what I saw on the new car was much more desirable and would seem to solve the problem, lubed seals or not.
Any thoughts from "those in the know?"
Tyler


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Window Issues (T-Tail)*

Hi Tyler:
Welcome to the forum. The key issue with 'window prep', which is what the little roll-down feature is called, is not so much how far the window goes down, but where the two horizontal lines are located when the windows are fully up. There is a diagram and explanation on the first post on page 1 of this thread that explains where the lines should be when the window is closed.
If the lines are in the correct place when the window closes (proper seal lubrication is a prerequisite, before checking position of the lines on the windows), and water does not leak into the car when the windows are tightly closed, then all is well - you can take for granted that the windows will 'prep' downwards a sufficient amount when needed.
In other words, don't look at how far the window drops when it preps, instead, look at where the horizontal lines are when the window is fully closed (and properly lubricated). That is the key to success.
Michael


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