# how easy is 8500 rpms?



## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Is it as simple as springs and retainers? I have supertech exhaust valves and an aeb head. My hy35 is shoving plenty of air at 30psi in my motor no problem when I hit my 7500 rpm redline. Its pulling just as hard at 7500 as when full boost hits in the low 5xxx rpms. So another 1000 rpms would be awesome, but I was just wondering if springs and retainers are enough to turn it up!?

Edit: I now have a Fluidampr, IE press fit 6 bolt timing gear, Supertech stainless exhaust valves with Cat Cams gold valve springs and safely run 8500-9000 rpms.


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## Fale (Apr 5, 2008)

off topic, but what exhaust housing are you running on the HY? ive got one im planning on dropping in, but with a Tim's .63 housing instead of a factory holset unit. TIA:beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Springs and valves preferably. But springs def.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Be careful if youi have Eurodyne. RPM limiter don't seem to work so great. Last year a tuner dynoed my car was waiting for the limiter and hit 9200rpms....


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## BH17DNB (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm definitely following this.
I have pretty much the same problem. I plan on using supertech inconel exhaust valves and rosten springs, using the stock retainers.
Would this be a problem for 8000RPM and maybe an occasional 8200-8500RPM?


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

You can go as high as 8000 on stock head. How long will it last? Good question. I know a wacky dude with an autocross setup (you know who you are) that has a limiter that high.


Vegeta Gti said:


> Springs and valves preferably. But springs def.


:thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Not worth the risk. ... it's a time bomb of stock springs. ... At they power level the OP seems to be around. . Valves would be smart. ...

Some guy will be "I've been doing it for years" but your car goes to 8500 twice and eats valves. . Then you get pissed. Drop a valve or it forays abd the engine eats it. .. complete rebuild or possible long bock.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Not to mention the newest original springs are 10yrs old...


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

[email protected] Performance said:


> You can go as high as 8000 on stock head. How long will it last? Good question. I know a wacky dude with an autocross setup (you know who you are) that has a limiter that high.
> 
> :thumbup:


Another dumb comment from boy wonder. 
as [email protected] said, the springs are old. I personally wouldn't take the risk and would keep it at the MAX of 7500. 
IE springs 
Stock intake valves
Ferrea exhaust valves 
:thumbup:


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

7500 is what I recommend as well, but MadMax runs 8500RPM's on his setup and he hasn't damaged anything yet. How would I know? Because I set the rev limiter based on his request.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I spun a stock AEB to 8400 for quite a while, but it eventually dropped a valve.



Mike Pauciullo said:


> Another dumb comment from boy wonder.


:laugh:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

I have exhaust valves? I plan on springs and retainers. So i should be set for 8500 rpms then!?

My exhaust housing is the stock hy35 housing. I dont think there is anything you can change too. The hx35 is the housing you can change!


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

That should be fine. Cams would be helpful, though.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

The only reason I did not mention cams is because you lose low end with that and that's not what I want to give up!


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

If your turbo already spools at 5000-ish, you won't be losing much :laugh:


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

When people are mentioning valves, im assuming they mean because of the need to upgrade to single groove keepers to cope with high rpm? As material doesn't really matter.


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> Is it as simple as springs and retainers? I have supertech exhaust valves and an aeb head. My hy35 is shoving plenty of air at 30psi in my motor no problem when I hit my 7500 rpm redline. Its pulling just as hard at 7500 as when full boost hits in the low 5xxx rpms. So another 1000 rpms would be awesome, but I was just wondering if springs and retainers are enough to turn it up!?


hmm my Hy35 hits full boost at about 5k on a 1.8l. I thought for sure it would be much lower on a stoker.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Well when i get it driving again i will do a legit test. I really cant for sure say where 30 psi comes in because it goes from 3-4 to 30psi in less than a second!


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> Well when i get it driving again i will do a legit test. I really cant for sure say where 30 psi comes in because it goes from 3-4 to 30psi in less than a second!




Lmk. I usually see positive pressure around 3k, 10 psi by 4k, 20+ psi by 5k.


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## Fale (Apr 5, 2008)

thanks buddy, but the big HY and the HX share the same turbine wheel and Tim's Turbo makes a t3 flanged, 4 bolt outlet .63 housing that works for them. search ebay for one. if you have the 12cm^2(.89a/r) housing, this one should help spool time significantly. if you have the 9cm^2(.65a/r) there wont be much change.:thumbup:


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Around here max rpm with stock springs is 7500rpm.

Provided that your engine is relatively new (low mileage) many guys run 7800rpm but no more than that.

Tuners have seen crankshaft failures over 7800 rpm!!! which is something i havent come across in the vortex forums though.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

brwmogazos said:


> Around here max rpm with stock springs is 7500rpm.
> 
> Provided that your engine is relatively new (low mileage) many guys run 7800rpm but no more than that.
> 
> Tuners have seen crankshaft failures over 7800 rpm!!! which is something i havent come across in the vortex forums though.


What? Crankshaft failure at what power level? And what crankshaft? Transverse 1.8T are all forged, and I've never seen or heard of anyone breaking a 1.8T crank, especially not at 7800rpms. What "tuner" claims this? 



superkarl said:


> When people are mentioning valves, im assuming they mean because of the need to upgrade to single groove keepers to cope with high rpm? As material doesn't really matter.


The OEM exhaust valves are hollow and sodium filled. That means there isn't that much material in those 6mm stems. High rpms and EGT's will cause them to break. At about 1700F, the sodium inside the valves ceases to agitate back and forth, and thus transfer heat. Upgraded valves are SS or inconel depending on your plans/goals.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

20v master said:


> The OEM exhaust valves are hollow and sodium filled. That means there isn't that much material in those 6mm stems. High rpms and EGT's will cause them to break. At about 1700F, the sodium inside the valves ceases to agitate back and forth, and thus transfer heat. Upgraded valves are SS or inconel depending on your plans/goals.


The topic is rpm. not egts. egts should always be in the safe limit anyway regardless.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

superkarl said:


> The topic is rpm. not egts. egts should always be in the safe limit anyway regardless.


Well with the way the 1.8T community runs small turbine housings and doesn't monitor EGT's, it was a warning to the community. You don't need the combo to break the exhaust valves, EGT's *OR* elevated rpms will do it. My EGT's measured pre turbine weren't excessive when I dropped a valve.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> What? Crankshaft failure at what power level? And what crankshaft? Transverse 1.8T are all forged, and I've never seen or heard of anyone breaking a 1.8T crank, especially not at 7800rpms. What "tuner" claims this?
> 
> 
> 
> The OEM exhaust valves are hollow and sodium filled. That means there isn't that much material in those 6mm stems. High rpms and EGT's will cause them to break. At about 1700F, the sodium inside the valves ceases to agitate back and forth, and thus transfer heat. Upgraded valves are SS or inconel depending on your plans/goals.


I bent my crank because of high peak torque and long tdi gears.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

20v master said:


> What? Crankshaft failure at what power level? And what crankshaft? Transverse 1.8T are all forged, and I've never seen or heard of anyone breaking a 1.8T crank, especially not at 7800rpms. What "tuner" claims this?
> 
> 
> 
> The OEM exhaust valves are hollow and sodium filled. That means there isn't that much material in those 6mm stems. High rpms and EGT's will cause them to break. At about 1700F, the sodium inside the valves ceases to agitate back and forth, and thus transfer heat. Upgraded valves are SS or inconel depending on your plans/goals.


I am referring to BT setups with big frame turbos. Not just one tuner but several avoid running over 7800rpm on the stock crankshafts.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> I bent my crank because of high peak torque and long tdi gears.


What torque level and rpm? What crankshaft? 



brwmogazos said:


> I am referring to BT setups with big frame turbos. Not just one tuner but several avoid running over 7800rpm on the stock crankshafts.


Okay, if there are several....WHO? Like I said, I've spun transverse cranks to 8400 for long periods of time with no crank issues.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> What torque level and rpm? What crankshaft?




AZG


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

20v master said:


> What torque level and rpm? What crankshaft?
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, if there are several....WHO? Like I said, I've spun transverse cranks to 8400 for long periods of time with no crank issues.












http://www.vwvortex.com/news/video-...swagen-golf-runs-quarter-mile-in-9-7-seconds/


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## BH17DNB (Feb 21, 2011)

that audi is 3.2 turbo, not 1.8t.
in this video he does an 8.8 pass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcjptiO168M


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

20v master said:


> What torque level and rpm? What crankshaft?
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, if there are several....WHO? Like I said, I've spun transverse cranks to 8400 for long periods of time with no crank issues.


Same here. I never hear about transverse crankshafts going bad. Things are weird in Europe, just like all that BHP and Nm nonsense.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

BH17DNB said:


> that audi is 3.2 turbo, not 1.8t.
> in this video he does an 8.8 pass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcjptiO168M



I just uploaded these 2 car examples as they are both tuned @ the same garage as 20v master wanted to know WHO.

I know the cars and the tuner...

That garage is one of them. More than 7800 rpm are not recommended around here in big frame BT setups and this comes from their experience from street racing and drag 1.8T cars they have built over the years etc.

Every tuner has its own perception of things and experiences...

You can run 8-8500 or whatever you like. They (some of the big names in tuning here) just dont recommend going higher than what i already wrote...


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

brwmogazos said:


> I just uploaded these 2 car examples as they are both tuned @ the same garage as 20v master wanted to know WHO.
> 
> That garage is one of them. More than 7800 rpm are not recommended around in big frame BT setups and this comes from their experience from street racing cars they have built over the years etc.
> 
> Every tuner has its own perception of things and experiences...


There's plenty of people on here going past 8k with stroker setups and closer to 9k with stock displacement setups. Although rod/piston ratio and piston velocity play a role in things the most limitation is in the stock head.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

thormx353 said:


> Same here. I never hear about transverse crankshafts going bad. Things are weird in Europe, just like all that BHP and Nm nonsense.


Agreed. RPM's don't break cranks, torque does. 'Murica.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> Agreed. RPM's don't break cranks, torque does. 'Murica.


Let's not have a metric vs imperial system discussion because imperial will loose that battle before it begins, logic dictates. 775NM is 571 imprerial torques and its measured at the wheels.


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> Let's not have a metric vs imperial system discussion because imperial will loose that battle before it begins, logic dictates. 775NM is 571 imprerial torques and its measured at the wheels.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

^ I stand corrected :laugh:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

There is no way the same housing can work for the hx and hy, the hy has a vband chra and the hx is a bolt to chra,  it would be nice to get a little smaller of a housing.
However, with water meth, e85, springs and retainers all on the list for next mods im not to worried about my 9cm housing!


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> There is no way the same housing can work for the hx and hy, the hy has a vband chra and the hx is a bolt to chra,  it would be nice to get a little smaller of a housing.
> However, with water meth, e85, springs and retainers all on the list for next mods im not to worried about my 9cm housing!



I still can't believe you're not seeing full boost till 5k.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Fale said:


> thanks buddy, but the big HY and the HX share the same turbine wheel and Tim's Turbo makes a t3 flanged, 4 bolt outlet .63 housing that works for them. search ebay for one. if you have the 12cm^2(.89a/r) housing, this one should help spool time significantly. if you have the 9cm^2(.65a/r) there wont be much change.:thumbup:



This is incorrec - for the most partt. The common hx turbos that are used come off of the Cummins 5.9l motor and have a significantly larger wheel than the by platform.. When you start getting in to oem specific , marine, and generator holsets, things become more mix-and-match on the turbine side.


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

If you'll pardon the basic question, why? Is this just more revs for the sake of it (I do love a high-revving motor) or are you extending the rev range to maximize some gear ratios or what? Peak power is always helped with more revs, but when it comes to power area under the curve, revs really aren't required. Just seems like trying to take a motor that's about broad power band and trying to engineer it into something it's not. I respect the "climb Everest because it's there" mentality, just wondering if this is something that's being done for the conquest of it, or is it consistent with an entire concept that you are implementing in the vehicle, or is just an expensive answer to some question that didn't need to be asked in the first place? Curious about why the question came about in the first place.


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

clarkma5 said:


> If you'll pardon the basic question, why? Is this just more revs for the sake of it (I do love a high-revving motor) or are you extending the rev range to maximize some gear ratios or what? Peak power is always helped with more revs, but when it comes to power area under the curve, revs really aren't required. Just seems like trying to take a motor that's about broad power band and trying to engineer it into something it's not. I respect the "climb Everest because it's there" mentality, just wondering if this is something that's being done for the conquest of it, or is it consistent with an entire concept that you are implementing in the vehicle, or is just an expensive answer to some question that didn't need to be asked in the first place? Curious about why the question came about in the first place.


Pretty simple. He's trying to take advantage of a longer period in full boost. Instead of 5k-7.5k in full boost he can be 5-8.5k in full boost.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> AZG


Isn't AZG a cast crankshaft? Was it balanced?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> Isn't AZG a cast crankshaft? Was it balanced?


AZG is a 2.0tfsi cast crankshaft. Was balanced and checked before install. Same machine shop measured how bent it was after 1 year on tdi gearing and rebalanced it by pinging it into submission. Don't ask me how they did it. It was bent 0.15mm


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

thormx353 said:


> Pretty simple. He's trying to take advantage of a longer period in full boost. Instead of 5k-7.5k in full boost he can be 5-8.5k in full boost.


OK that makes sense. To expand on that, he chose a turbo sizing for a peak power output that requires a large amount of revs to achieve full boost (5000 RPMs) so to expand his power band, instead of sacrificing power with a smaller turbo or increasing static displacement, he is upping his rev limit. Got it!


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

clarkma5 said:


> OK that makes sense. To expand on that, he chose a turbo sizing for a peak power output that requires a large amount of revs to achieve full boost (5000 RPMs) so to expand his power band, instead of sacrificing power with a smaller turbo or increasing static displacement, he is upping his rev limit. Got it!


Exactly. Although I do believe he did increase displacement as well.


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

Clearly with a displacement bump and a turbo this huge, the game is all about massive power then  I'm getting the concept here!


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

clarkma5 said:


> Clearly with a displacement bump and a turbo this huge, the game is all about massive power then  I'm getting the concept here!


Yes although I'm trying to figure why I have the same turbo on stock displacement and have the same spool characteristics on a much milder build.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Da fuq is the point of revving to 8500 with stock cams. :screwy:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

I dont know about other mk4s but i think the gears in my TT are really short compared to my friends old 6 speed gti. I may get cams when funds allow, i just picked a bank note up for a duramax to pull this to the drag strip if i ever go plus i enjoy being loud for no reason. So money isn't flowing as much and i just went back to school as well. The only thing i can think of for spool is a turbo to manifold leak or this nice crack on the inside of my turbo housing by the internal wastegate flapper. No the crank wasn't balanced, it is a 2ltr cast crank, that was one thing i was wondering but no one brought up. Should i have a fluidampr? Or anything to do with my timing gear? And someday i may put a smaller turbo on this and tear the streets apart a little more but $300 for this turbo was too good of a deal to pass up!

Read this to solve the hx vs hy debate.
http://www.d-series.org/forums/forc...lset-turbo-specs-hy-hx-h1c-wh1c-h1e-wh1e.html


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> I dont know about other mk4s but i think the gears in my TT are really short


Yep, I'm with you! Six speed 02m in 225 TT is way too short even at my modest hybrid turbo power level. It's either you spin the motor to at least 8k+ or re-gear the transmission. I find the car to be almost useless at autocross and road courses since you spend half of your time stuck in between the wrong gear. Very inadequately geared box for power above stock turbo :thumbdown:


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Your dv/bov could be leading, killing spool. You could have a ic pipe leak, you might have too weak of wastegate springs, or intercooler piping could be too large. Lots of possibilities.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> AZG is a 2.0tfsi cast crankshaft.


Everything I see online says the AZG was a 2.0L 8V made from 2001-03, and has a cast crank designed for 122 lb-ft in OEM form. Yeah, I'm sure over 500lb ft at 5Kish rpms would bend it 0.15mm = 0.006", but that's a far cry from stating that going over 7800 rpms will cause cranks to bend. I may not be understanding you, but you say they "rebalanced" it back into useable form, which doesn't make sense? If you're still using this crankshaft, they pulled one over on you because the amount of deformation you claim would make the crank out of spec. 

Main Bearing Clearance:
1.8T ---> 0.0008 to 0.0023" (0.02 to 0.06 mm)

Connecting Rod Bearing Oil Clearance:
1.8T ---> 0.0004 to 0.0024" (0.01 to 0.06 mm)

I don't know where they claim that it "bent," but unless this was a professional, high end engine builder, I doubt the tuner/builder CMM'ed your crankshaft and came up with 0.15mm, unless they used a very capable machine shop. No one would spend the money to have this done on a cast crank in the US because you could just replace it for less than what it would cost to CMM the crank. If any of this is wrong, by all means, forgive me as I don't pay attention to 2.0 engine codes.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yep, I'm with you! Six speed 02m in 225 TT is way too short even at my modest hybrid turbo power level. It's either you spin the motor to at least 8k+ or re-gear the transmission. I find the car to be almost useless at autocross and road courses since you spend half of your time stuck in between the wrong gear. Very inadequately geared box for power above stock turbo :thumbdown:


Off topic: I know we've discussed before Max, but I'm going to try to finish up building my motor tomorrow and hopefully will have time to get into swapping my FWD 02M gears into the AWD 02M case.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Off topic: I know we've discussed before Max, but I'm going to try to finish up building my motor tomorrow and hopefully will have time to get into swapping my FWD 02M gears into the AWD 02M case.


Grabbing the popcorn on this! If it works out, I'm following your lead (takes lots of pics).


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

20v master said:


> Everything I see online says the AZG was a 2.0L 8V made from 2001-03, and has a cast crank designed for 122 lb-ft in OEM form. Yeah, I'm sure over 500lb ft at 5Kish rpms would bend it 0.15mm = 0.006", but that's a far cry from stating that going over 7800 rpms will cause cranks to bend. I may not be understanding you, but you say they "rebalanced" it back into useable form, which doesn't make sense? If you're still using this crankshaft, they pulled one over on you because the amount of deformation you claim would make the crank out of spec.
> 
> Main Bearing Clearance:
> 1.8T ---> 0.0008 to 0.0023" (0.02 to 0.06 mm)
> ...




So your claim that there is no issue with bent cranks is coming from one motor you built and tested or many?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> Everything I see online says the AZG was a 2.0L 8V made from 2001-03, and has a cast crank designed for 122 lb-ft in OEM form. Yeah, I'm sure over 500lb ft at 5Kish rpms would bend it 0.15mm = 0.006", but that's a far cry from stating that going over 7800 rpms will cause cranks to bend. I may not be understanding you, but you say they "rebalanced" it back into useable form, which doesn't make sense? If you're still using this crankshaft, they pulled one over on you because the amount of deformation you claim would make the crank out of spec.
> 
> Main Bearing Clearance:
> 1.8T ---> 0.0008 to 0.0023" (0.02 to 0.06 mm)
> ...


I have no idea where you get this claim about 7800rpm. I never stated that whatsoever. I said long tdi gears and a peaky torque curve bent my crank. Your suggestion that they pulled on over me is juvenile at best. This machine shop does nothing but crankshaft work and I have absolutely no reason to doubt their profession. Just because you don't understand how it's possible don't mean nobody else can't do it. As I said it was bent 0.15mm and I could see it when I pulled it out of my motore where I could see the center bearing worn badly compared to the others.


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

20v master said:


> Off topic: I know we've discussed before Max, but I'm going to try to finish up building my motor tomorrow and hopefully will have time to get into swapping my FWD 02M gears into the AWD 02M case.


I guess my 5 speed 02m isn't so bad after all


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> I have no idea where you get this claim about 7800rpm. I never stated that whatsoever. I said long tdi gears and a peaky torque curve bent my crank. Your suggestion that they pulled on over me is juvenile at best. This machine shop does nothing but crankshaft work and I have absolutely no reason to doubt their profession. Just because you don't understand how it's possible don't mean nobody else can't do it. As I said it was bent 0.15mm and I could see it when I pulled it out of my motore where I could see the center bearing worn badly compared to the others.


I think he is confusing you with this guy below.



brwmogazos said:


> I just uploaded these 2 car examples as they are both tuned @ the same garage as 20v master wanted to know WHO.
> 
> I know the cars and the tuner...
> 
> ...


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## Miguel_s# (Mar 28, 2014)

its a good topic

what is max rev for oem:

intake valve spring?

exhaust valve spring?

intake valve?

exhaust valve?

retainers?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

thormx353 said:


> I think he is confusing you with this guy below.


Ah, yes. Afaik it's low rpm high torque that will put most stress on your engine components.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

thormx353 said:


> I think he is confusing you with this guy below.


I was. Forgive me, I'm running on not much sleep. 



Gulfstream said:


> I have no idea where you get this claim about 7800rpm. I never stated that whatsoever. I said long tdi gears and a peaky torque curve bent my crank. Your suggestion that they pulled on over me is juvenile at best. This machine shop does nothing but crankshaft work and I have absolutely no reason to doubt their profession. Just because you don't understand how it's possible don't mean nobody else can't do it. As I said it was bent 0.15mm and I could see it when I pulled it out of my motore where I could see the center bearing worn badly compared to the others.


I'm sorry for confusing you with the other gent. However, accusing me of being juvenile is quite a stretch. The machine shop does nothing but crankshaft work? What does that mean? Forging? Casting? Hardening? Rough or final finishing? Balancing? Polishing? Magnaflux? Xray? Sonic inspection? What exactly do they do? I understand quite well how's it possible, but you're talking about cast cranks that didn't come in 1.8T blocks. You haven't addressed that at all. Do you think VW just decided to spend extra money for no reason when they switched to forged cranks? The way you are describing the crank as bent, unless there are more details that you aren't giving us, again seems unlikely. You're saying the middle journal bent, the place that would be the most unlikely to bend, was out of spec. Were the other's wearing too? One end more than the other? No one is calling you a liar, so stop taking things personally. You also didn't answer the other question, as you made it seem like you're still using the crank. If you can bring any more facts or details to the table, it may help me and others understand exactly what happened. People claim things happen all the the time without understanding true root cause. I'm trying to paint a bigger picture. Which brings me to questioning my understanding and knowledge. 



brwmogazos said:


> So your claim that there is no issue with bent cranks is coming from one motor you built and tested or many?


Personal experience, I've built ~ a dozen 20v 06a blocks. I was making over 500hp with one in 2008. That engine had over 40 WOT dyno passes on it as well as 50K miles at that power level, and the forged FSI crank in it had no issues going to 8K+. That was when I had more free time before I got heavy into my career. That same crank is going in the motor I'm finishing up this weekend, and it'll see 8K+ more frequently than the last setup as it will have a tubular manifold and has a fully built +1mm valve'ed AEB head. 

I have worked for two OEM automotive manufacturers. Approaching one million engines have been built under my responsibility as a process engineer for engine assembly, crankshaft machining, and block machining. I'm currently responsible for new model engine development in regards to durability testing, power certification, and dyno torture testing for a well known engine maker. Perhaps you've heard of them: Honda Motor Company. We don't forge cranks in house, but we do aluminum casting, so I have some insight into the processes that most people never see. We do machine raw crankshaft and rod forgings though. I'm more than qualified to discuss failure mode analysis of crankshafts, but I question some small machine shop half way around the world and all of a sudden I'm juvenile? :screwy:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

thormx353 said:


> I guess my 5 speed 02m isn't so bad after all


The effective gearing is pretty comparable to the six speed, so no, it isn't any better. Gear to speed limit was Max's first question about my 180Q when he was class limited to transmission changes. :laugh:


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> I was. Forgive me, I'm running on not much sleep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your suggesting that I was made one over by a machine shop here in Sweden is juvenile and speculative. I am not working for them and have no insight to their operation hence I do not know how they work, as I already stated earlier. This machine shop does nothing but crankshafts and was recommended by my mechanic way back when I started building these motors. All my crankshafts get inspected by them before I install them. When I pulled motor for honing last year I noticed center bearing was more worn than the other which is indication the crank is bent, I'm sure it works the same way in your Honda motor. :thumbup:

I had a choice to buy a new crank or have this shop rebalance it and their guarantee and price made it the best option.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> Your suggesting that I was made one over by a machine shop here in Sweden is juvenile and speculative. I am not working for them and have no insight to their operation hence I do not know how they work, as I already stated earlier. This machine shop does nothing but crankshafts and was recommended by my mechanic way back when I started building these motors. All my crankshafts get inspected by them before I install them. When I pulled motor for honing last year I noticed center bearing was more worn than the other which is indication the crank is bent, I'm sure it works the same way in your Honda motor. :thumbup:
> 
> I had a choice to buy a new crank or have this shop rebalance it and their guarantee and price made it the best option.


You may think I'm being juvenile and speculative, but I don't think you understand those words. 

Juvenile: Marked by immaturity; childish
Speculative: theoretical, rather than practical.

I'm not being childish in any way, and I have practical experience beyond theoretical on the subject. Other than your lack of being able to even explain what this crankshaft specialist even does, you keep saying that they rebalanced it to put back into use. Rebalancing doesn't correct deformation, which is what you claim the crank had. You claim this deformation was greater than the clearance tolerances of main journals and rod pins, yet you think that can be corrected by rebalancing, which just isn't true. People react defensively when their preconceived notions are challenged. You are exhibiting this behavior. Unless you got your units or decimals wrong, a crank that is bent 0.15mm on a main journal in an 06A block is junk, regardless of what some shop that your mechanic recommended guaranteed. The facts you're claiming don't add up. I have nothing to gain by discrediting said shop, so I'm not sure why you think I'm "speculating." I'm not going to reply anymore as this is off topic, so we'll just agree to disagree.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> You may think I'm being juvenile and speculative, but I don't think you understand those words.
> 
> Juvenile: Marked by immaturity; childish
> Speculative: theoretical, rather than practical.
> ...


Honestly I don't care if you don't "believe" this shop corrected this crankshaft to be within specs or not. I'm telling you they did and if you think it's impossible then perhaps you should have a look at your own capabilities rather than attacking others. I have provided useful information proving you CAN bend a crank in these motors with enough torque at low rpm. Get over it :wave:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

20v master said:


> People react defensively when their preconceived notions are challenged. You are exhibiting this behavior.


:wave: There's nothing to get over, I'm not the one that reuses bent crankshafts.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> :wave: There's nothing to get over, I'm not the one that reuses bent crankshafts.


It's not bent anymore :laugh:


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## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> I have provided useful information proving you CAN bend a crank in these motors with enough torque at low rpm. Get over it :wave:


You've told us that you once bent a non-original, cast crank on a setup built for lots of low end torque. I'm not sure anyone is surprised by this. Unfortunately, you got lumped in with the other dude that was claiming that rpms bend cranks, but the timing and wording of your post made it sound like you were agreeing with him and adding anecdotal evidence.

Why did you choose to repair a bent cast crank when the forged options are readily available and inexpensive?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

bzflag said:


> You've told us that you once bent a non-original, cast crank on a setup built for lots of low end torque. I'm not sure anyone is surprised by this. Unfortunately, you got lumped in with the other dude that was claiming that rpms bend cranks, but the timing and wording of your post made it sound like you were agreeing with him and adding anecdotal evidence.
> 
> Why did you choose to repair a bent cast crank when the forged options are readily available and inexpensive?


The statement was none of the cranks in this category could get bent. Well, I bent one. It's a fact. Dr. Phil up here just need to take a chillpill and read what I write.

I live in Sweden and there was no forged cranks available at the time of my build. The only ones I could find was in the US. I talked to this machine shop after they measured it and got a quote AND a guarantee it would be good as new. The quote was 1/3 of the price of a forged crank shipped from overseas as well as it would take a few days as compared to a couple weeks shipped from US. If you ever have been waiting for only ONE part it's clear you only want to wait a few days. The crank got bent because of the peaky torque at relative low rpm and my long ass tdi gears. I was changing my setup to another gearbox with shorter gears as well to a turbo with less low end torque so I had no problems using the cast crank.

2.0 AZG crank is still a VAG part. Non original?


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## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)




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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I'll probably get a forged crank next time I open the engine. I didn't expect to be at the power levels I am now when I began this build some years ago. :beer:


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## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

20v master said:


> What? Crankshaft failure at what power level? And what crankshaft? Transverse 1.8T are all forged, and *I've never seen or heard of anyone breaking a 1.8T crank*, especially not at 7800rpms. What "tuner" claims this?





Gulfstream said:


> The statement was none of the cranks in this category could get bent. Well, I bent one. It's a fact. Dr. Phil up here just need to take a chillpill and read what I write.
> 
> I live in Sweden and there was no forged cranks available at the time of my build. The only ones I could find was in the US. I talked to this machine shop after they measured it and got a quote AND a guarantee it would be good as new. The quote was 1/3 of the price of a forged crank shipped from overseas as well as it would take a few days as compared to a couple weeks shipped from US. If you ever have been waiting for only ONE part it's clear you only want to wait a few days. The crank got bent because of the peaky torque at relative low rpm and my long ass tdi gears. I was changing my setup to another gearbox with shorter gears as well to a turbo with less low end torque so I had no problems using the cast crank.
> 
> 2.0 AZG crank is still a VAG part. Non original?


See bold above for what he actually said.

Forged 1.8t and 2.0fsi cranks, from everything I've seen, are nearly indestructible. Cast, not so much.

I hear you on the part availability. Definitely been there before.

By non-original I didn't mean non-OEM. You stuck a cast crank designed for an NA application into a FI setup that almost seemed designed to break it. If I thought about trying to build a motor to bend/break a crank, your original setup is how I'd do it.

I see your rationale for the direction you went. I couldn't wrap my head around why you would repair a crank when it seemed inevitable to fail again. But if you changed your setup to prevent it, all's good.



Gulfstream said:


> I'll probably get a forged crank next time I open the engine. I didn't expect to be at the power levels I am now when I began this build some years ago. :beer:


:thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Ok, it seems we've reached a consensus. 
Forged FI cranks=nearly indestructible 
Cast NA cranks=can be bent with enough TQ 

Can we get back on topic? The requirements for high rev topic is an interesting one. The uprated spring manufacturers all claim to have the best. IE would be my first choice, but what's the word on the other options like supertech etc.. ? What material for the valves? Is a set of exhaust valves all that's needed, or intakes also worth upgrading to safely rev to 8.5k+? Are new guides needed or can the stockers re-used while revving to the moon?


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

This thread made me remember these:


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## dane. (Nov 16, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Ok, it seems we've reached a consensus.
> Forged FI cranks=nearly indestructible
> Cast NA cranks=can be bent with enough TQ
> 
> Can we get back on topic? The requirements for high rev topic is an interesting one. The uprated spring manufacturers all claim to have the best. IE would be my first choice, but what's the word on the other options like supertech etc.. ? What material for the valves? Is a set of exhaust valves all that's needed, or intakes also worth upgrading to safely rev to 8.5k+? Are new guides needed or can the stockers re-used while revving to the moon?


When I had my ported AEB built, I used the following:

Factory intake valves
Ferrea exhaust valves +1mm
OEM hydro lifters
IE spring & retainer kit

My RPM needle is/was/will be a trampoline bouncing off 8500 all the time. Further than that? Pete from IE said oil pressure is the biggest issue as long as the correct hardware is there. I had plans of doing CVA1 cams revving to 9000 but I bought a house in 2014 and need to recuperate some finances first.


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## dane. (Nov 16, 2007)

lorge1989 said:


> Da fuq is the point of revving to 8500 with stock cams. :screwy:


On a 5858 on a ram horn tubular manifold with a ported AEB at ~23 PSI my power was still climbing at my 8500 rev limit.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I've been fine on 034 race springs for years with all ferrera stainless valves and 3651 set.


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## BH17DNB (Feb 21, 2011)

how high are you reving?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

supertech valvetrain on my engines.
previously revved to occasional 9000, now run 8800rpm
hybrid gt35 on stock crank, 83mm bore, cams etc etc


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I set my rpm limiter to 8400 but I change gears around 8k. Ferrea valves and supertech springs.


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## desertdubs_C (Sep 20, 2009)

dane. said:


> On a 5858 on a ram horn tubular manifold with a ported AEB at ~23 PSI my power was still climbing at my 8500 rev limit.


Stock displacement? I have the same turbo I'm putting on my new setup with a built non-ported AEB and ram horn tubular manifold but am 2.0L. Wondering if you could share some info about your build. 

To keep things on topic, aside from rev limiters, what are people using to know they have hit their target RPM? Obviously the OEM cluster does not reach that high and I am not fond of most aftermarket RPM gauges but still want to know exactly where I'm shifting.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

8800 still


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## booster_ginster98 (May 14, 2010)

subd

increasing the usable powerband is going to be one of my next steps in my build and I too would be curious what all needs to be replaced to rev safely to about 8k, maybe somewhat higher. planning to do supertech Inconel exhaust valves, stock intake, catcams springs, new lifters, and trying to decide on a set of cams.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

I have supertech exhaust valves, non iconel. 20 new valve guides and a full valve job. Stock cams. I will be adding a Full set of supertech springs and retainers. General consensus is that i will be safe till 8500rpms then? I think the answer to that is what me and a few others are after!


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Alec's TT said:


> I have supertech exhaust valves, non iconel. 20 new valve guides and a full valve job. Stock cams. I will be adding a Full set of supertech springs and retainers. General consensus is that i will be safe till 8500rpms then? I think the answer to that is what me and a few others are after!


Yes

Let me expand on that: it has been done before with no issues


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

[email protected] Performance said:


> Yes
> 
> Let me expand on that: it has been done before with no issues


That is what i was after. Thank you!


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## BH17DNB (Feb 21, 2011)

so is there any need for timing belt gear dowel pin mods?
when do you actually start needing that?


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

BH17DNB said:


> so is there any need for timing belt gear dowel pin mods?
> when do you actually start needing that?


I would say get IE's new forged crank gear and an ARP crank bolt and you should be good to go for that.

I am have CAT gold valve springs (the exhuast side are actually 2 springs), Supertech +1mm intake and exhaust valves with single groove keepers, Supertech retainers, and Supertech solid lifter buckets. Hoping to have this setup running by the summer time.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Now, is the single grove design a must for a "piece of mind" 8.5-8.8k rpm ceiling, or could it be done reliably using the factory 3-grove design? I'm asking because my case is a bit unusual as I have to *regularly* sit on the limiter for 2-3 secs at a time to avoid some dreaded additional upshifts/downshifts every lap.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Now, is the single grove design a must for a "piece of mind" 8.5-8.8k rpm ceiling, or could it be done reliably using the factory 3-grove design? I'm asking because my case is a bit unusual as I have to *regularly* sit on the limiter for 2-3 secs at a time to avoid some dreaded additional upshifts/downshifts every lap.


my personal opinion is yes when using the like of full supertech valvetrain inc their retainers.
I dont mix supertech valve/retainers with triple groove valves/collets


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

badger5 said:


> my personal opinion is yes when using the like of full supertech valvetrain inc their retainers.
> I dont mix supertech valve/retainers with triple groove valves/collets




I am wayyy beyond what i planned on spending so i will be mixing and will report how it works in a few months. I regularly stress my car every time i drive it so if i have an issue with something i will let you all know!


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> I am wayyy beyond what i planned on spending so i will be mixing and will report how it works in a few months. I regularly stress my car every time i drive it so if i have an issue with something i will let you all know!


I just turned mine up to 25 psi again. I love it. Now have to deal with this bad haldex pre charge pump :banghead:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

thormx353 said:


> I just turned mine up to 25 psi again. I love it. Now have to deal with this bad haldex pre charge pump :banghead:


Well i just went out and drove mine and was like it doesnt feel right lol and it was only set at 25 instead of 30 psi. Sooo i have 3-5 psi at 3k rpms and 10psi at 4k and it goes to 25-30 so fast idk where full boost hits!


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> Well i just went out and drove mine and was like it doesnt feel right lol and it was only set at 25 instead of 30 psi. Sooo i have 3-5 psi at 3k rpms and 10psi at 4k and it goes to 25-30 so fast idk where full boost hits!


I'm at about the same. Seeing 10psi by 4k then it exponentially spools up quicker from there


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## V DUB'N (Dec 12, 2002)

I had my limiter set to 9500rpm with cat springs, supertech exhaust valves and cat 3652 cams.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Those cat cams Gold springs are super cheap...:thumbup:

Still i dont see them being used often though.?


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

brwmogazos said:


> Those cat cams Gold springs are super cheap...:thumbup:
> 
> Still i dont see them being used often though.?


http://pagparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=34_37_97&products_id=623

These will get me 8500rpms? If so im ordering asap!


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## BH17DNB (Feb 21, 2011)

They should get you even more.
Here are the ones i bought:
http://rosten-performance.com/produ...in/valvespringkit/vw-audi-1-8t-20v-springset/
I think they are even cheaper then the cat ones (also cheaper shipping for me since they're from Norway)


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

The people revving high, what kind of oil weight and additive are you running?

I used to run Amsoil dominator 15w-50 in the 1.8t and recently made the switch to Valvoline VR1 20w-50. I used to run the Vr1 in my 10.5k revving Saturn race car (for high ZZDP content and strong viscosity) with 0.75 quart of high mileage synthetic for a boost in detergent (the race oils are poor in detergent). Are you guys running regular oil with ZZDP additives like the one below or what?

http://www.hotrodhotline.com/pr/2009/09zzdpapril/


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## [email protected] Motorsports (Sep 24, 2013)

I use Mobil1 15W-50, it's got high ZZDP content.
As well, I used to add GM's Engine Oil Supplement Zinc additive, but it's no longer available here in Canada.

High ZZDP is great for a hydo lifter setup :thumbup:


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## booster_ginster98 (May 14, 2010)

Alec's TT said:


> http://pagparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=34_37_97&products_id=623
> 
> These will get me 8500rpms? If so im ordering asap!


I've talked with Arnold about these and he highly recommends them. they maintain the factory retainers, which IIRC he explained to me are longer lasting than the titanium ones. I plan to use these when I build my small port and go back to it.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

booster_ginster98 said:


> I've talked with Arnold about these and he highly recommends them. they maintain the factory retainers, which IIRC he explained to me are longer lasting than the titanium ones. I plan to use these when I build my small port and go back to it.


I thought titanium retainers were a big part of high revving because they are lighter? So the real key here is high spring pressure?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

They reduce valve train mass. Lower mass, less force required to change move. It also changes valve train harmonics. On an Max effort build, @10k, sure. At 7500/8500, eh. Spring pressure and valve train mass achieve the same goals but in different methods. One increases force while the other reduces required force.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The people revving high, what kind of oil weight and additive are you running?
> 
> I used to run Amsoil dominator 15w-50 in the 1.8t and recently made the switch to Valvoline VR1 20w-50. I used to run the Vr1 in my 10.5k revving Saturn race car (for high ZZDP content and strong viscosity) with 0.75 quart of high mileage synthetic for a boost in detergent (the race oils are poor in detergent). Are you guys running regular oil with ZZDP additives like the one below or what?
> 
> http://www.hotrodhotline.com/pr/2009/09zzdpapril/


15w50 for me
motul 300v ester oil


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## [email protected] Motorsports (Sep 24, 2013)

badger5 said:


> 15w50 for me
> motul 300v ester oil


I used to use this as well, but if you're not mindful enough, you'll catch your self sniffing it from the fragrance :laugh:
For my 2.0 TSI I use Motul specific, great product :thumbup:


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

[SU
[/SUP]


Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Now, is the single grove design a must for a "piece of mind" 8.5-8.8k rpm ceiling, or could it be done reliably using the factory 3-grove design? I'm asking because my case is a bit unusual as I have to *regularly* sit on the limiter for 2-3 secs at a time to avoid some dreaded additional upshifts/downshifts every lap.


Deff not. More people have dropped valves with the single keeper supertech valves than I can count. Use ferrea tripple grove, and the factory intakes are more than fine. When I ran hydro ferrea exhausts, factory intakes and ferrea spring/retainer combo would see 9k all day long with no less than 40psi of boost


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

badger5 said:


> 15w50 for me
> motul 300v ester oil


Ditto


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

turbodub said:


> [SU
> [/SUP]
> 
> Deff not. More people have dropped valves with the single keeper supertech valves than I can count. Use ferrea tripple grove, and the factory intakes are more than fine. When I ran hydro ferrea exhausts, factory intakes and ferrea spring/retainer combo would see 9k all day long with no less than 40psi of boost


it just seems to simple. these guys need to make 400whp a science project.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Mike, with all due respect, I'm sorry if your discipline allows simple, but some of us unfortunately have to build things to hold up for 45 minutes race sessions instead of 9-12 seconds. You may have had some success in knowing how to build for your sport, but sorry to break it down to you, some of us have had the same (if not more) success doing so for theirs. 

Hate on overbuilding and making things " a science project" but that's what works when you have to build all-around cars that can hold up for extended use. It might never register to you, but part of the demographics of people using 1.8t-powered cars must turn braking, suspension, components longevity, and pretty much everything else into science projects because WE USE THESE THINGS. Taking sweepers with all of your oil pined on one side of the motor while you're sitting on the rev-limiter for 1/3 of the time it takes you to go down the strip, requires a different approach to building. 

When I need to build a racecar that I can throw a set of cheapo coilovers, autozone-special pads, and go for 10-sec-only power, I'll hit you up for some simplistic expert advice since you're the authority on that. :wave:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

marc...that is something that has always been pushed aside in this forum..that someof us prefer to drive our car for extended periods in a far more grueling application of motorsport.

i took a simple approach, but it wasn't cheap, it involved planning out my setup and it has evolved over time(7 years) and it still kicks ass to me.

too much drag racing infulence in here sometimes as MOST cars are street cars and road course/autox ideals would apply more especially in regards for longevity and so on.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Max, not to argue, but have you seen some of the to level drag car shocks? Not Vw, obviously, but 7second + cars. They put a lot of high level aftermarket shocks to shame. Electrically adjustable dampening, travel feedback, stuff you would see on formula cars being used in a mcphearson and sra application.

Not to mention dry sumps... Everywhere.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> marc...that is something that has always been pushed aside in this forum..that someof us prefer to drive our car for extended periods in a far more grueling application of motorsport.
> 
> i took a simple approach, but it wasn't cheap, it involved planning out my setup and it has evolved over time(7 years) and it still kicks ass to me.
> 
> too much drag racing infulence in here sometimes as MOST cars are street cars and road course/autox ideals would apply more especially in regards for longevity and so on.


Yep, and there is nothing wrong with drag racing and what's involved into building for it. What moves this tech section backwards IMO is the idea (pushed by many) that everything has to be geared toward making power that's ideal to go down the straight. You get stoned around here if you dare mention lag and look to make power without a snail that push power on the right side of the curve only. Everything here needs to be for one thing, and one thing only, while there are other forms of Motorsport that people build for using 1.8t cars. Besides autocrossing, I plan on going on a full SCCA road racing campaign next season, and it's sad that I have to go other non-1.8t forums to discuss things I'm doing on my car because it would be pointless here.



Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Max, not to argue, but have you seen some of the to level drag car shocks? Not Vw, obviously, but 7second + cars. They put a lot of high level aftermarket shocks to shame. Electrically adjustable dampening, travel feedback, stuff you would see on formula cars being used in a mcphearson and sra application.
> 
> Not to mention dry sumps... Everywhere.


Trust me Pat, I have. I'm am a DSM/EVO guy at heart and I see the level of details put into serious drag builds in that community, and the results reflects the efforts. What I'm singling out is the simpleton approach pushed in this forum that tries to discredit anything that has some thoughts put into it. You know I put a lot of effort into my car, especially the suspension (maybe more than any other McPherson suspended tracked MKIV) -- so I know what's involved into building high level track cars (regardless of it being built for road racing or drag racing). 

I am not attacking drag racing because I have a lot of respect for anything that's done well, and is at the top of their discipline. But when simply asking a question (in a rev thread) regarding the two valve keeping designs that are advertised gets that kind of response, something is wrong with the 1.8t drag community.


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Mike, with all due respect, I'm sorry if your discipline allows simple, but some of us unfortunately have to build things to hold up for 45 minutes race sessions instead of 9-12 seconds. You may have had some success in knowing how to build for your sport, but sorry to break it down to you, some of us have had the same (if not more) success doing so for theirs.
> 
> Hate on overbuilding and making things " a science project" but that's what works when you have to build all-around cars that can hold up for extended use. It might never register to you, but part of the demographics of people using 1.8t-powered cars must turn braking, suspension, components longevity, and pretty much everything else into science projects because WE USE THESE THINGS. Taking sweepers with all of your oil pined on one side of the motor while you're sitting on the rev-limiter for 1/3 of the time it takes you to go down the strip, requires a different approach to building.
> 
> When I need to build a racecar that I can throw a set of cheapo coilovers, autozone-special pads, and go for 10-sec-only power, I'll hit you up for some simplistic expert advice since you're the authority on that. :wave:


I am 100% confident we could build a engine to last that 45-60 min range with no problem what so ever. 
It also seems like mycheapo coilovers and autozone-special pads are working just fine for us. Let me know when you are with in 400WHP of my ghetto ass car. :wave:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> It also seems like mycheapo coilovers and autozone-special pads are working just fine for us


Well, that's what I was saying might never register with you. Just because it's working for you does not mean it can't be better, or is appropriate for everyone running a 1.8t car when the intended use is the polar opposite of what you do. 


Mike Pauciullo said:


> Let me know when you are with in 400WHP of my ghetto ass car. :wave:


Honestly, it never will because of what I do with it. But make no mistakes, if your simplistic approach can make it work, it can't be that hard to slap a big flowing turbo with the supporting hardware and make big power. Let me know when your car can stop, brake, take turns and accelerate out of them and we'll talk.


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Well, that's what I was saying might never register with you. Just because it's working for you does not mean it can't be better, or is appropriate for everyone running a 1.8t car when the intended use is the polar opposite of what you do.
> 
> 
> Honestly, it never will because of what I do with it. But make no mistakes, if your simplistic approach can make it work, it can't be that hard to slap a big flowing turbo with the supporting hardware and make big power. Let me know when your car can stop, brake, take turns and accelerate out of them and we'll talk.


Braking 
Mk3 10.1 rotors, rears disconnected, autozone pads and rotors, valuecraft brake fluid, and manual brakes - the car slows down to 20mph from 161mph with in 400ft. I think that is really good.
Handling 
CHEAP raceland coil overs, 1000ibs springs in the rear, 100ibs weight bar over the front of the car, and skinnies in the rear
The car goes fairly straight besides 2 passes and that was due to my own error.
Acceleration 
Do I really need to go into that?
Taking turns 
It's hard to corner with slicks and skinnies.
It does seem to be hard to slap parts together and last since it seems you can't figure it out yet.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> Braking
> Mk3 10.1 rotors, rears disconnected, autozone pads and rotors, valuecraft brake fluid, and manual brakes- the car slows down to 20mph from 161mph with in 400ft. I think that is really good*.*
> Handling
> CHEAP raceland coil overs, 1000ibs springs in the rear, 100ibs weight bar over the front of the car, and skinnies in the rear
> ...


:laugh::laugh::laugh: I'll let it go because you seem too smart to realize that racing is not only about drag racing. Good job pointlessly listing your setup, now back on topic.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh: I'll let it go because you seem too smart to realize that racing is not only about drag racing. Good job pointlessly listing your setup, now back on topic.


Street racing, drag racing and going fast around curves with the occasional hill that gets tires off the ground are all in my agenda, so building a car to do each without hurting the last takes some thought.

A stroker to make in town driving more fun
HY35 with an 8.5k redline for drag racing
Street radials with bilstien shocks for the corners
Stock brakes because im a broke 21 year old. 

Everyone does there own thing because its their car. I dont get why every single god damn thread on here turns into a fight. Especially the ones like this where people like myself and a few others actually learned a few things! Rant over. 

I think i have decided that http://pagparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=34_37_97&products_id=623 should get me where i want with stock retainers for a hell of a good price!


Not sure if this works for people searching in the future but: raise redline, high rpm. high rpms, springs and retainers, hydro lifters, redline, red line, 8k, 8.5k. 9k,


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Alec, you could skip the expensive stroker bottom end and run a25 shot at 100% pedal position and 0 bar boost.. 

Max, at first I didn't see Mike's comment as a stab at you, but I guess it was. I see EVERYTHING as a science experimen. I couldn't figure out what way bad about that.


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

Alec's TT said:


> Street racing, drag racing and going fast around curves with the occasional hill that gets tires off the ground are all in my agenda, so building a car to do each without hurting the last takes some thought.
> 
> A stroker to make in town driving more fun
> HY35 with an 8.5k redline for drag racing
> ...


He is just bitter that he can't keep parts together.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> Everyone does there own thing because its their car. I dont get why every single god damn thread on here turns into a fight. Especially the ones like this where people like myself and a few others actually learned a few things!


Exactly and I was genuinely interested in the topic and participating in the thread. Hey, I pleaded for things to get back on topic when it derailed into a bent crank showdown - I asked questions about oil, retainer design, guides, etc. because I have been revving high on stock valvetrain and want to do it right for next season (luckily it stayed together unlike what simpleton here seems to think). You ask why every threads turn into a fight? Because of resident morons that only post for the drama and never contribute anything of substance. 


Here is what I've posted here untlil Mr simple childishly barged in with nothing to contribute. You tell me if that's not positive participation in the topic: 



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yep, I'm with you! Six speed 02m in 225 TT is way too short even at my modest hybrid turbo power level. It's either you spin the motor to at least 8k+ or re-gear the transmission.





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Can we get back on topic? *The requirements for high rev topic is an interesting one*. The uprated spring manufacturers all claim to have the best. IE would be my first choice, but what's the word on the other options like supertech etc.. ? What material for the valves? Is a set of exhaust valves all that's needed, or intakes also worth upgrading to safely rev to 8.5k+? Are new guides needed or can the stockers re-used while revving to the moon?





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> The people revving high, what kind of oil weight and additive are you running?
> 
> I used to run Amsoil dominator 15w-50 in the 1.8t and recently made the switch to Valvoline VR1 20w-50. I used to run the Vr1 in my 10.5k revving Saturn race car (for high ZZDP content and strong viscosity) with 0.75 quart of high mileage synthetic for a boost in detergent (the race oils are poor in detergent). Are you guys running regular oil with ZZDP additives like the one below or what?
> 
> http://www.hotrodhotline.com/pr/2009/09zzdpapril/





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Now, is the single grove design a must for a "piece of mind" 8.5-8.8k rpm ceiling, or could it be done reliably using the factory 3-grove design? I'm asking because my case is a bit unusual as I have to *regularly* sit on the limiter for 2-3 secs at a time to avoid some dreaded additional upshifts/downshifts every lap.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> You ask why every threads turn into a fight? Because of resident morons that only post for the drama and never contribute anything of substance.


Exactly why I quit posting here years ago. Funny, in six years, it hasn't changed at all. Thanks for the effort to keep the discussion technical, Max.


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## thormx353 (Dec 24, 2012)

Alec's TT said:


> Street racing, drag racing and going fast around curves with the occasional hill that gets tires off the ground are all in my agenda, so building a car to do each without hurting the last takes some thought.
> 
> A stroker to make in town driving more fun
> HY35 with an 8.5k redline for drag racing
> ...



No offense but even with a stroked motor, around town fun with an HY35 isn't going to be very fun. You'll never be able to hit full boost. Ask me how I know.


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## BH17DNB (Feb 21, 2011)

A friend of mine has a HY35 with the 9cm housing and he claims to get full-boost around 4200-450o with an 1.8t engine non-stroker.
Do you have the 10cm one? or why do you load so late?
Anyway those extra 1000 revs to 8500 would help out alot and doing it cheap would be even better.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

thormx353 said:


> No offense but even with a stroked motor, around town fun with an HY35 isn't going to be very fun. You'll never be able to hit full boost. Ask me how I know.


Oh but i do :laugh: 
Once i get my transfer case seal replaced and a motor mount replaced as well i will throw my hero 3+ in and record you a video of what its like to live in the same city as me! However since you guys keep bringing oil up. what does that really have to do with a high redline. Since my rebuild after break in i have been running shell rotella 15w40 as i have had bad experience with 5w oils killing turbos and so has another guy who lives around me.


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## booster_ginster98 (May 14, 2010)

Alec's TT said:


> Oh but i do :laugh:
> Once i get my transfer case seal replaced and a motor mount replaced as well i will throw my hero 3+ in and record you a video of what its like to live in the same city as me! However since you guys keep bringing oil up. what does that really have to do with a high redline. Since my rebuild after break in i have been running shell rotella 15w40 as i have had bad experience with 5w oils killing turbos and so has another guy who lives around me.


care to speculate on this? killing them how. just curious because I had a brand new garrett turbo that went on me and I've been using 5w oil since day 1.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

booster_ginster98 said:


> care to speculate on this? killing them how. just curious because I had a brand new garrett turbo that went on me and I've been using 5w oil since day 1.


I wrecked 2 f21 chras with 3k miles and 1k on them using 5w30 and 5w40 and the other guy I know who runs a holset set he took at least one out with thin oil. But I beat the living **** out of my car 4-5 times harder than most people here so my turbo is red hot most of the time and that puts a lot more heat in the oil as well. I literally take off at 3/4 throttle about 90% of the time. I almost feel like I should have an oil cooler. And with 1000 more rpms thats even more heat into the oil!


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

> almost feel like I should have an oil cooler


:banghead:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> :banghead:


What?

Edit: after a good whoopin and everything is really hot my oil pressure at idle is a little bit lower than I would like. I go for a quick light throttle cruise and it comes right back up. So I figured a small cooler in the smic location with a thermostatic plate would befine.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes. 

If you beat on the car, you need a plate. It's not one of those things that you should get when you get around to it. The pressure comes back up when the oil cools off, but the damage happens before then.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Exactly why I quit posting here years ago. Funny, in six years, it hasn't changed at all. Thanks for the effort to keep the discussion technical, Max.


knowledgeable and contributing members like you should never be pushed away by the actions of some idiots. As far as I know, Richard (Chickenman) has stopped posting here for the same reason, and it's sad that the community as a whole is being stripped of such wealth of knowledge. 



Alec's TT said:


> However since you guys keep bringing oil up. what does that really have to do with a high redline. Since my rebuild after break in i have been running shell rotella 15w40 as i have had bad experience with 5w oils killing turbos and so has another guy who lives around me.


Oil is brought up because the high rotational speed put more stress on the valvetrain. Higher spec oils with high ZZDP contents becomes an insurance policy to prevent accelerated wear on friction surfaces. Pete at IE stresses this a lot with people using their components and taking the revs above 8k (especially when sticking with hydro lifters). Since emission requirements have forced public-road synthetic oils to cap the amount of Zinc in the oil, off-road/racing oils are what enthusiasts usually turn to in order to get high enough ZZDP levels (ZZDP additives are also an alternative but it becomes trickier to have to mix things). :beer:



Alec's TT said:


> What?


I think Pat was banging his head to say that it should've been known that an oil cooler is a prerequisite for where you're taking your build (especially with your plans to push the revs).


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I think Pat was banging his head to say that it should've been known that an oil cooler is a prerequisite for where you're taking your build (especially with your plans to push the revs).


The high rev friction makes plenty of sense and I though he was bangin his head because I didnt need one.:facepalm:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Chicken man has posted in our road race thread


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Chicken man has posted in our road race thread


He is not active here anymore. He probably posted in the road race thread because it's the only safe zone where the drag nazis won't venture with their BS.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] Motorsports said:


> I used to use this as well, but if you're not mindful enough, you'll catch your self sniffing it from the fragrance :laugh:
> For my 2.0 TSI I use Motul specific, great product :thumbup:


yea I cant deny the smell of sweets is'nt unpleasent.. lol

This year however I am changing to Millars nanotech ester oil, 10w60 so we shall see how that fares.
word on the street from testers is the oils "special" nano thingymajig aspect of the oil reduces friction well and power gains are also seen.

We shall see how it pans out this years racing.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

turbodub said:


> [SU
> [/SUP]
> 
> Deff not. More people have dropped valves with the single keeper supertech valves than I can count. Use ferrea tripple grove, and the factory intakes are more than fine. When I ran hydro ferrea exhausts, factory intakes and ferrea spring/retainer combo would see 9k all day long with no less than 40psi of boost


BUT what retainers were they using and were they installed correctly were exhaust valve guides worn...
I run them... not had an issue on any build. I would only use single groove on their retainers tho not mix oe retainers with singles..


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Mike, with all due respect, I'm sorry if your discipline allows simple, but some of us unfortunately have to build things to hold up for 45 minutes race sessions instead of 9-12 seconds. You may have had some success in knowing how to build for your sport, but sorry to break it down to you, some of us have had the same (if not more) success doing so for theirs.
> 
> Hate on overbuilding and making things " a science project" but that's what works when you have to build all-around cars that can hold up for extended use. It might never register to you, but part of the demographics of people using 1.8t-powered cars must turn braking, suspension, components longevity, and pretty much everything else into science projects because WE USE THESE THINGS. Taking sweepers with all of your oil pined on one side of the motor while you're sitting on the rev-limiter for 1/3 of the time it takes you to go down the strip, requires a different approach to building.
> 
> When I need to build a racecar that I can throw a set of cheapo coilovers, autozone-special pads, and go for 10-sec-only power, I'll hit you up for some simplistic expert advice since you're the authority on that. :wave:


lol


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

badger5 said:


> BUT what retainers were they using and were they installed correctly were exhaust valve guides worn...
> I run them... not had an issue on any build. I would only use single groove on their retainers tho not mix oe retainers with singles..


The single grooved keepers, from my experience, are a bit brittle compared to the oem triple. They do not seem to stand up to valvetrain anomalies as I've had them crack in half which resulted in valve drop. I dont have too many problems with the triple oem grooved keepers at all and use them exclusively.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> The single grooved keepers, from my experience, are a bit brittle compared to the oem triple. They do not seem to stand up to valvetrain anomalies as I've had them crack in half which resulted in valve drop. I dont have too many problems with the triple oem grooved keepers at all and use them exclusively.


cracked keepers?
bimey!

over here the failures I've heard of indirectly have been using the spring retainer kit but with 3 groove keepers & valves ...


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> He is not active here anymore. He probably posted in the road race thread because it's the only safe zone where the drag nazis won't venture with their BS.


That's really too bad, he was a big help with my clutch cylinder upgrade and his contributions to the GM ignition upgrade were invaluable, can't we just get someone to exercise the ban hammer more for those that deserve it? Losing people because of trolling or calling out the pricks is ridiculous, don't the mods understand that when they lose actual adult enthusiasts they also lose the money they would spend with advertisers? It seems like those who don't contribute should be driven away, not the opposite. Oh well, 'Murica!


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## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

Now I'm worried about my engine. I have the Supertech single groove keepers..... Is there an aftermarked single groove keep that's stronger than the supertech stuff?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> He is not active here anymore. He probably posted in the road race thread because it's the only safe zone where the drag nazis won't venture with their BS.


You're 100% right Max. I occasionally lurk and I will post some info that I find interesting, but the loud mouthed " Baboons " lately have made this forum a joke. I use to respect Mike P...but no more. All he's done is proven how narrow minded and ignorant he really is.

Funny how some Drag Racing guys get it...and others are Baboons. Aaron was and is one smart cookie. He loved good technical discussions and he was always looking for a technical edge...or " science project ". he doesn't post here anymore because of the same reasons. 

You can get buy a simple things and " intelligent " ghetto work ( or " Home engineering " ) .. I'm not a rich person and did it for years when I Road Raced ( with great success ) . But I never had the *utter arrogance* to think that I was anywhere near the Professional Teams and I always was looking to improve my technical understanding. And I would never dismiss advanced Technical work as being not useless. Bashing sound Technical work as a " Science Project " is just the babbling of loud mouthed fools. Grow up man... ( Mike P )

BTW...don't waste your breath responding. I've had my say and I won't be looking at any responses. :thumbdown:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

^ Glad to see you around man, please jump into any threads you feel are worthwhile, I always have some kind of idea brewing


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> You're 100% right Max. I occasionally lurk and I will post some info that I find interesting, but the loud mouthed " Baboons " lately have made this forum a joke. I use to respect Mike P...but no more. All he's done is proven how narrow minded and ignorant he really is.
> 
> Funny how some Drag Racing guys get it...and others are Baboons. Aaron was and is one smart cookie. He loved good technical discussions and he was always looking for a technical edge...or " science project ". he doesn't post here anymore because of the same reasons.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

badger5 said:


> BUT what retainers were they using and were they installed correctly were exhaust valve guides worn...
> I run them... not had an issue on any build. I would only use single groove on their retainers tho not mix oe retainers with singles..


supertechs. installed correctly like were they on the valve and in the retainer? yes. hey I used to use single grooves with my 16v and had no prob(ferrea though). but for the 20v I have only used tripple grooves and have had lots of success making lots of power and lots of boost so thats what I recommend.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> Braking
> Mk3 10.1 rotors, rears disconnected, autozone pads and rotors, valuecraft brake fluid, and manual brakes - the car slows down to 20mph from 161mph with in 400ft. I think that is really good.
> Handling
> CHEAP raceland coil overs, 1000ibs springs in the rear, 100ibs weight bar over the front of the car, and skinnies in the rear
> ...





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh: I'll let it go because you seem too smart to realize that racing is not only about drag racing. Good job pointlessly listing your setup, now back on topic.


:facepalm:



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yep, and there is nothing wrong with drag racing and what's involved into building for it. What moves this tech section backwards IMO is the idea (pushed by many) that everything has to be geared toward making power that's ideal to go down the straight. You get stoned around here if you dare mention lag and look to make power without a snail that push power on the right side of the curve only. Everything here needs to be for one thing, and one thing only, while there are other forms of Motorsport that people build for using 1.8t cars. Besides autocrossing, I plan on going on a full SCCA road racing campaign next season, and it's sad that I have to go other non-1.8t forums to discuss things I'm doing on my car because it would be pointless here.


Sad reality :thumbdown:

My brother is a good example. He's got a little bit an ego problem.. 
Always trying to have the most powerful car out all of us . Now, he drives a 996tt with 650whp .
with all that power he was 12sec slower than me at Road Atlanta. with less than 300whp . 

*POWER DOESNT MEAN $HIT ON A RACETRACK ( circut of coarse ) Anyone can go straight :thumbdown:*


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

BR_337 said:


> *POWER DOESNT MEAN $HIT ON A RACETRACK ( circut of coarse ) Anyone can go straight *


So true. And people ask why I turn boost down on the circuit. ...lol, more to it than sheer straight away speed my dear Watson.


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

Chickenman35 said:


> You're 100% right Max. I occasionally lurk and I will post some info that I find interesting, but the loud mouthed " Baboons " lately have made this forum a joke. I use to respect Mike P...but no more. All he's done is proven how narrow minded and ignorant he really is.
> 
> Funny how some Drag Racing guys get it...and others are Baboons. Aaron was and is one smart cookie. He loved good technical discussions and he was always looking for a technical edge...or " science project ". he doesn't post here anymore because of the same reasons.
> 
> ...


Loud moth fools huh? Mighty Max was insisting that we spend all types of R&D in suspension work to get my car down the track. Would it make a difference? Maybe, but not a big enough difference where the time and money spent on that will not be worth the benefit. It is real simple to figure out since people have been doing it for years. Might Max doesn't understand that for some reason. It makes more sense to keep things SIMPLE so its cheaper to go racing. 
I am ok with making enemies around here. No one has to like me or respect me. 



BR_337 said:


> *POWER DOESNT MEAN $HIT ON A RACETRACK ( circut of coarse ) Anyone can go straight :thumbdown:*


If it was so easy to go in a straight line wouldn't everyone be doing it? Power doesn't mean everything but when you can make power and have it stay together for a long time that is a good built motor/car. When I say people make these things a science project it is because they over think everything and cause more problems for themselves.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> Loud moth fools huh? Mighty Max was insisting that we spend all types of R&D in suspension work to get my car down the track. Would it make a difference? Maybe, but not a big enough difference where the time and money spent on that will not be worth the benefit. It is real simple to figure out since people have been doing it for years. Might Max doesn't understand that for some reason. It makes more sense to keep things SIMPLE so its cheaper to go racing.
> I am ok with making enemies around here. No one has to like me or respect me.


"Mighty Max"... I like that, not as much as Mad Max, but thanks for the compliment!

To ease your pain, nobody insisted on anything (unless you have your own Suffolk County interpretation of the word). I was just providing input and giving suggestions on how you could have possibly improved things on your car (the posts are archived if you want me to refresh your memory). I did the same thing with Aaron on another board and helped himp sort some aero mods on his car -- one, it helped him go faster, and two, he welcomed and appreciated the inputs. It's your car, nobody can force you to do anything - and I really don't understand how you interpreted someone's input as imposing something on you. The R&D was something I offered since I have software to do so and have modeled the Mk4 front end already, so it wouldn't be tons of work for me to do the non-AWD rear. I wasn't suggesting that you to go learn suspension dynamics and start messing with things, I was genuinely offering help. 

We really must be from a different breed of racers because when someone offers help on their own time, for free, while it's something that can potentially improved my car, it's something I welcome... not view as some kind of insult because the R&D is daunting or over my head. For example, Pat at PittSoundworks offered to dive on a project involving a full tubular front end with double A-arms, unique and involving, but I didn't view his offer as an insult, I didn't decide he was an enemy for offering development on my car, I jumped both feet in with the project, but most importantly, I appreciated the idea ... and him offering it. 

Just so you know, nobody is your enemy, it's a forum and a community where enthusiasts share their interest for cars. I just decided to voice my opinion this time at your repetitive childish pokes about "science projects" whenever you see me and something technical in a thread. If it did hurt you that much that you were given suggestions, I appologive for extending whatever inputs I gave. I hope you can be mature enough to move on and stop seeking god knows what in threads where people are having real discussions. Your post seem to suggest that it was justified for you to start drama in an actual thread of substance, why don't you contribute to the topic and we can move past this as adults? Fair enough Sir?

Mighty Max


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## dane. (Nov 16, 2007)

desertdubs_C said:


> Stock displacement? I have the same turbo I'm putting on my new setup with a built non-ported AEB and ram horn tubular manifold but am 2.0L. Wondering if you could share some info about your build.
> 
> To keep things on topic, aside from rev limiters, what are people using to know they have hit their target RPM? Obviously the OEM cluster does not reach that high and I am not fond of most aftermarket RPM gauges but still want to know exactly where I'm shifting.


Apologies for not seeing this.

My build is fairly straightforward.

Stock stroke, bore, & crank
JE 9.25:1 / IE 144mm Rods
Ported AEB
Ferrea Exhaust +1mm / Factory Intake
IE Springs & Retainers
Stock cams
FFE top-mount tubular with a .63 5858

As for the target RPM issue, I started a thread awhile back about it and saw minimal responses. I went ahead and bought this last year but am only getting around to installing it for 2015.
https://ecliptech.com.au/

Took about 2 weeks to reach me.


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## desertdubs_C (Sep 20, 2009)

dane. said:


> Apologies for not seeing this.
> 
> My build is fairly straightforward.
> 
> ...


Thanks for getting back to me. This thread turned into a lengthy one rather quickly. My turbine housing is .82 but I am 2.0L with stock cams so that should help a little with spool. How do you like that shift light? Something like it is what I'm aiming for.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

ryan mills said:


> Now I'm worried about my engine. I have the Supertech single groove keepers..... Is there an aftermarked single groove keep that's stronger than the supertech stuff?


your now worried after reading this..

I'm not and have run them for years zero issues... on an Actual Proper Racecar (circuit not 1/4 mile)


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I've run them too bill with good success on several builds. I always did wonder about them at times as they do seem a bit thin at the bottom taper. But who's to say if there was something to exacerbate this problem. All I found was this underneath a valve-less lifter and its intact twin. Chicken or egg?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I've run them too bill with good success on several builds. I always did wonder about them at times as they do seem a bit thin at the bottom taper. But who's to say if there was something to exacerbate this problem. All I found was this underneath a valve-less lifter and its intact twin. Chicken or egg?


Exactly what the three broken keepers looked like when my builder tried to put together my head last year. IE supplied me with replacements, they took more care when installing those, and they went together fine. The head hasn't been run yet, but will be soon, so fingers crossed.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

I cant wrap my head around why single is better for high rpm anyway. if someone can explain it. 
I mean i've read it grips the valve better, somehow. More clamping force on the stem? Thats more spread out on 3 groove. 

Its sensible to think a single groove will have more stress on it at a point than 3 groove. Hence the breaking.


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## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

superkarl said:


> I cant wrap my head around why single is better for high rpm anyway. if someone can explain it.
> I mean i've read it grips the valve better, somehow. More clamping force on the stem? Thats more spread out on 3 groove.
> 
> Its sensible to think a single groove will have more stress on it at a point than 3 groove. Hence the breaking.


I think its down to the single groove versions grip the valve stem when they are fitted, therefore they are not just relying on the strength of the groove but also the clamping force of the keeper. 
3 grooves don't grip the valve stem when they are fitted, they just rely on the strength of the grooves to stop the valve from falling. You can tell as the valves turn freely once installed while the keepers are gripped in the spring retainers. 

Lamborghini use the same valve keepers as the 1.8T's in their engines so i'm guessing there ok..if there good enough for a lambo there good enough for me..(try googling with the OEM part number and they come up)

Has anybody seen any OEM 3 groove valve keepers fail ?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Some good info, keep it coming! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I've run them too bill with good success on several builds. I always did wonder about them at times as they do seem a bit thin at the bottom taper. But who's to say if there was something to exacerbate this problem. All I found was this underneath a valve-less lifter and its intact twin. Chicken or egg?


anyone ask supertech about such a failure?
same keepers used on GM I think?


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## dane. (Nov 16, 2007)

desertdubs_C said:


> Thanks for getting back to me. This thread turned into a lengthy one rather quickly. My turbine housing is .82 but I am 2.0L with stock cams so that should help a little with spool. How do you like that shift light? Something like it is what I'm aiming for.


I should have went with a .82 housing myself, the difference in lag between the two is a matter of a few 100 RPMs. It's in the top end where you gave the advantage of a larger housing.

I haven't used the light yet because I haven't even driven the car since the weather got cold.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

For anyone wondering how well the IE press fit timing gear works, I had to use a normal closed end wrench on a big ass gear puller to get it off, i would be more worried about breaking a crank before this thing coming off at 8500 rpms.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

8600+ everyday (no bull****) for 5 years (7800 for 2.5 years before that)

Everything is still together.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Vegeta Gti said:


> 8600+ everyday (no bull****) for 5 years (7800 for 2.5 years before that)
> 
> Everything is still together.


With what hardware in the head?


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

20v master said:


> With what hardware in the head?


he has ferrara exhaust and stock intake i think... cant remember.. his setup is a lot like mine

VALVES... ^


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

NaSMK4 said:


> he has ferrara exhaust and stock intake i think... cant remember.. his setup is a lot like mine
> 
> VALVES... ^


So just valves. I used to spin to 8500 regularly, but after dropping a valve (stock, don't know if it was exhaust as one intake and one exhaust broke, chicken vs egg, but assume it was exhaust), it made me cautious. Will be cranking a new engine soon though with +1mm inconel exh/SS int valves, springs, retainers, etc soon though.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Alec's TT said:


> For anyone wondering how well the IE press fit timing gear works, I had to use a normal closed end wrench on a big ass gear puller to get it off, i would be more worried about breaking a crank before this thing coming off at 8500 rpms.


Bent a crank, bad... Ate my own words. I am ordering the cat golds tonight. Those along with my fluidampr should net me 8500 with no issues correct? 

These are what i am ordering.
http://pagparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=34_37_97&products_id=623


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

You'll most likely want upgraded valves as well. Those springs are tough. On the exhaust side, it's a dual spring setup. My car isn't running yet, but we've been working on getting the lash sorted out (I'm on mechanical lifters) and it's a pain in the ass to turn the cams. Probably doesn't help that the ramp for the solid lifter cams are steep as well. :laugh::banghead: I would also recommend outsourcing the install job to someone with a massive valve spring compressor setup. :laugh:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

I have supertech stainless exhaust valves, so that should have me covered there. Thats a good thought. I have changed valve seals a few times with a bolt on compressor but i bet these take a bit more to compress.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

I forgot how much of a bitch getting the keepers in was. I got tired with 6 intakes left to go. Cat golds with double exhaust springs. 









Throw back to june 10th 2010 the day i got my TT


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

I have finally set the rev limit to 9k rpms. Oh was it worth it. This thing is absolutely crazy! I have supertech exhaust valves and Cat gold springs and that is it. I set the shift light on my wot box at 8500 rpm and shift shortly there after and it made a world of difference. I just raced a 2015 challenger srt8 with a "chip" about an hour ago and had 10-15 lengths on him at 140. If you are big turbo and have a head to throw some cheap parts at, the cat gold springs and supertech valves are more than worth it!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ Nice! The question is can that setup last doing it for 35-40 min non-stop? I am going with a similar setup, so I guess I will find out.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

No idea! Mine normally lasts 5 before i break something


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Not hating, but do you really need 9K with an HX35 and a 2.0. I have nearly the same setup and saw nearly 400 whp at 5500. I'm just thinking if you shift at 8, there is no way you will fall out of the powerband. For a streetable machine to last long, I'm just not sure its worth it.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

lorge1989 said:


> Not hating, but do you really need 9K with an HX35 and a 2.0. I have nearly the same setup and saw nearly 400 whp at 5500. I'm just thinking if you shift at 8, there is no way you will fall out of the powerband. For a streetable machine to last long, I'm just not sure its worth it.


He'll find out soon enough. Like he said, it only lasts 5 minutes at a time. :laugh:


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

It actually was working really well! But the thrust bearing in my turbo exploded... I think it may have been my fault from when i rebuilt it actually. I found out i have a wh1c which is almost the same as the hx35 but the thrust bearing bolts in and im not sure if i over torqued it or what. But yes, 8-9 is totally reasonable on the street and i am hoping it helps get my track times down. The car launches completely different now after all the front end work and lowering springs. So yes, the valve springs are worth it on the street!


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

So, the theoretical power my motor will be making was so great that I've already broken a valve. :laugh::banghead:
It was one of Supertech's Inconel exhaust valves. This was at roughly 3 RPMs (I was checking the timing of the motor by spinning the crank by hand):

























Sent the valve back to Supertech and the guy said that they had never seen anything like this before. The valve had no mileage/hours on it. It had only been installed and opened/closed by turning the camshaft (this was to measure clearance and install lash caps). The guy said it might have taken some damage prior to or during install. However, the valve is perfect straight. It is not bent in any spots, especially not where it split into 2 parts. It looks like there might have been some oxidation or something because at the broken ends there is some discoloration. Perhaps a manufacturing defect? Who knows? Anyway, I sent the valves back to them and upgraded to newer single groove keepers and their new Inconel sodium-filled exhaust valves (for a REALLY good deal), which the guy says are MUCH better for high power applications and the valves are lighter. He also said their new single groove keepers are machined so they are more precise and have better fitment; which probably helps with potential issues like the one Al posted earlier.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

That was with solid lifters?


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

Yeah. But, the valves were a really old product. They have updated a lot of their stuff since I purchased the valves back in like 2008. I don't expect anyone else to have an issue like I did and I would not worry about it. Mainly, I posted about the broken valve to, hopefully, start a discussion about what might have happened. I'm no expert of all things valve-related and I definitely don't know much about the processes involved in making valves or the composition of the metals, etc. used.

The guy from Supertech did mention though that he does not recommend the stainless steel (or even titanium) valves over the Inconel valves for the exhaust side stating that they don't stand up to the high heat experienced in high horsepower application as well as the Inconel does.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

What camshaft for 8500 RPMs? I'd love to put a set of IECVA1 or IECVA2's into my next build, but they don't seem to be available at the moment.










Cat Cams 3658's Ok? IE also sells Schrick cams:



IntEngineering said:


> Features:
> 
> 252 Intake Camshaft
> Duration: 252 degrees
> ...


Anybody have experience with the Schrick's?


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

The reason i asked about hydro or solid is that i believe valve stems snapping like that can happen if you install hydro lifters and crank the engine without letting them sit for something like six hours or so. 

I currently have some bad ass stock cams along with a bad ass stock intake/throttle body :laugh:
I cant afford that stuff yet. I have an 80mm hemi tb ready to go on an obx intake when i get the money around, however i blew my new turbo up sunday, so that is my main priority right now.


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Great thread with lots of info!

Wanted some opinions if it's a good idea to use supertech valve springs/retainers with OEM valves. Planning on building a head in a couple years but have the springs now so should I throw them in? I have a K04 hybrid, and I know there's no extra power above 6K, but I'd like to safely get closer to 8K to extend the gears a bit. 

Was going to get a tool like below and put them in with the head still on the engine. Will the heavier springs cause problems with OEM valves? Did some searching but could not find anything definite, and I don't want to grenede the engine.


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

The price went up a little, i am using these with stock retainers and supertech exh valves. Turning 9k. I also have a fluidampr.

http://pagparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=623

I got one of these off of ebay. Works decent, there are a few things though. A cheater bar makes your arm less tired. And a tiny magnetic screw driver will make putting the keepers back in a hell of a lot easier. Dip them in oil and they stick right to the valve. 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valve-Sp...8308&wl11=online&wl12=171644238&wl13=&veh=sem


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

Hope everyone's 1.8Ts are behaving. Mine never stayed together long enough to behave8 and really did give up after years of threatening too. A deal on an r32 swap came up that I could not pass up on. The day will come when this gets like an hx40 with a billet comp wheel or an s366! I miss the power my 1.8t had though 😕 

https://youtu.be/1g0mAxv5zjg


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Alec's TT said:


> Hope everyone's 1.8Ts are behaving. Mine never stayed together long enough to behave8 and really did give up after years of threatening too. A deal on an r32 swap came up that I could not pass up on. The day will come when this gets like an hx40 with a billet comp wheel or an s366! I miss the power my 1.8t had though 😕
> 
> https://youtu.be/1g0mAxv5zjg


Nice swap!


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## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

mainstayinc said:


> Alec's TT said:
> 
> 
> > https://youtu.be/1g0mAxv5zjg
> ...


Thanks! I love every minute of it!


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