# 'nother little teaser



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Of course, no pics of anything really until the whole thing rebuild is done (again) and while snow and cold weather is slowing me down, I will still get done whatever I can in the spare time I have.
So here's a little teaser, something I started yesterday and will hopefully finish this weekend (have tonight to do some glassing, then another day to finish. I'm going to need about 8 pounds of clay and some small steel sections for this mother ;effer.


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: 'nother little teaser (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

looks good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
you still workin on the kicks too?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: 'nother little teaser (MO.SLIM)*

The midbass in the floor? They're in and "done" - for now. I'm having steel rings cut that I plan on welding to the floor to replace the MDF. 
The midrange in the kicks? Those have been done, but weren't good 'nuff. Direct route this time. 
IIRC, pathlengths for midrange right now are:
DL: 38
DR: 55
PL: 55
PR: 38
I have them written down in the garage. At these distances, time discrepancies between channels are 0.00123942841s. Midbass and midrange are horizontally aligned. Tweeters are slightly spaced outwards but in their frequency passband, they're controlled completely by IID, so it won't matter too much. Polar response at the crossover frequency will be slightly skewed from the non-vertical mounting, but that frequency will most likely be attenuated anyway to control simbalance. All woofers are off-axis from both listening positions a maximum of 12 degrees.
Should have the pods and bases glassed tonight, as well as the tweeter pods.
Yes, I am building for 2-seat judging.



_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 11:35 AM 2-2-2009_


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: 'nother little teaser (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

5-10
Thats how many words I understood in your last post








I look forward to seeing your finished product http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: 'nother little teaser (MO.SLIM)*

LOL, I'd be happy to 'splain what I know if you have a topic of interest








This is the last I'm putting out before they're done. 








When the tweeter actually sits almost entirely over the midrange. There is 2" center-to-center from the midrange to tweeter, a little less when on the "close side" due to the overlap. tweeter is 61mm in diameter


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 8:20 PM 2-2-2009_


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## blazerpounds (Mar 19, 2008)

cannot WAIT to see this finished!! this is exactly what I wanted to do, but when i test fit everything it seemed completely out of place with a 4" focal midrange... mad props to ya pat!


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (blazerpounds)*

I agree, looks totally awkward with just the mid there (4.5" scan revelator) but once the tweeter was placed, it looks much better - so much so that I changed my mounting design to feature the pod vs integrating it back into the pillar. 
I got more pics if you're interested, I just don't want them hitting the 'net until I'm totally done. Not worried about stealing ideas, I'm all for sharing, it will just let me pick-and-choose what pictures I want for the build-book without breaking links when I'm done.
For this install, I'm trying to feature dynamics and stage presence (width/height/depth). Tonality, imaging, and frequency response cone in third, fourth, and fifth, respectively. Since it IS a DD car, I can tolerate FR errors, and give up _some_ detail in tonality as long as it has that revelatory buttery smoothness... LOL Imaging is nice, but crap once the windows are down which if it's 50 degrees or higher, all windows are down and sunroof is open.

Also went to glass last night in my 60 degree 0 humidity basement (GREAT for fiberglassing BTW) and realized I didn't get sent any mekp with the resin I ordered this time... DOH. Walmart after work then take-two.


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 8:28 AM 2-3-2009_


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

WHAT THE HELL! you're 21??
man based on this audio knowledge i naturally assumed you were like some 40 year old guru.
I might take you up on that offer of assistance since I'm currently deadening (yeah yeah, deadening sucks and I should use all that crazy cascade stuff







but i gotta start somewhere), and then I'm gonna hook up an amp and sub to my stock monsoon, till i get the dough for speakers with another amp and HU. 
I'll send you a pm, or wait, maybe I should start another thread about how to hook a sub up to the monsoon system


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (MO.SLIM)*

Sweet, another sub-to-monsoon thread for me to ignore!
"deadener" can work, provided you do foam under neath and then two layers or so on top. It's the mass on an air-spring which does the blocking. The higher density mass the better. That's why MLV is great stuff. It has the same density as lead (Pb).
Even if you don't use the cascade stuff, read the "blog" section of the website. It has a LOT of great info!
edit: Wait! Lets see if you get this one:

_Quote »_I'm what you call a prodigy.....
So long turd-nuggets *pew pew pew* *eep* *tss* *eep* *tss* *eep*



_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 11:16 PM 2-3-2009_


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_
edit: Wait! Lets see if you get this one..

Nope, dont get it!
I've seen it somewhere in the forums before though..
I read through some of the blogs from cascade and they were informative and interesting, but also depressing. Although I'm glad I haven't put a layer on my floor already. I had never heard of this air spring before. 
What I'm trying to figure out is why RAAMmat is marketed in such a way where you apply the deadener and then the foam. If you did it in reverse, wouldn't you be making a type of air spring (assuming you put enough of the deadener on top)?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (MO.SLIM)*

yep, but "deadener" itself isn't very dense. MLV can have the same density as lead







doesn't get much better than that


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_yep, but "deadener" itself isn't very dense. MLV can have the same density as lead







doesn't get much better than that

I believe platinum is almost twice as dense as lead, I'll use that as my "mass layer" instead, BALLLLLIN!








ok so these airsprings, it seems that they are mainly to block soundwaves...so it seems that means they block road noise but what about panel vibrations caused by SPL? or does the spring block the sound waves from the sub also...


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (MO.SLIM)*

If you're trying to block the sound waves, use a barrier. If you're trying to stop panes from resonating, add mass. If you're trying to stop panel vibrations (rattles), use a foam gasket between rubbing panels.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

well, if anyone is interested in pictures........
They'll be a here in a couple days. Fab on the pods and pillars will be done friday, and the sub enclosure too. Might also have fab done on the this friday too, but I'm not concerned. It's getting welded tomorrow. 1x1x1/8, 5.5 total height. I need to fill the hole still.


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## dubweiser1 (Dec 23, 2001)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_well, if anyone is interested in pictures........
They'll be a here in a couple days. Fab on the pods and pillars will be done friday, and the sub enclosure too. Might also have fab done on the this friday too, but I'm not concerned. It's getting welded tomorrow. 1x1x1/8, 5.5 total height. I need to fill the hole still.









good old reference series amps, i like. ive got a soundstream amp as well, however its much older:
http://ampguts.realmofexcursio...D100/


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (dubweiser1)*

Rubicons.
I love those little D series. I just wish they weren't so rare, and were higher powered. I also wish I hadn't sold the 1002 I need to fill the hole. Who would'a thunk I would have felt the need for more than 300wrms for subs again....


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## crnacnac (Aug 3, 2004)

Looks great. I'm interested in pics, pods please.


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## wreckedmyteg (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_Rubicons.
I love those little D series. I just wish they weren't so rare, and were higher powered. I also wish I hadn't sold the 1002 I need to fill the hole. Who would'a thunk I would have felt the need for more than 300wrms for subs again....

They look like the old Reference series. I had a reference 3.0 and a 6.0, as well as a 405, and another one that was a 5 channel. Can't remember the model.
Pretty nice amps. I upgraded to phoenix gold ZX series for better x-overs.
Your using scan-speaks? Ever use the Seas Excel woofers?
Just curious. I know Vifa / Scan-speak make some good drivers. My home towers are built with them.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (wreckedmyteg)*

I <3 os soundstream. Crossovers are of no concern to me.
12m midrange, 18w midbass, and when I get the cash for it, the new illuminator tweeters.
I really enjoyed both the EX and NX series Excels.


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## wreckedmyteg (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_I <3 os soundstream. Crossovers are of no concern to me.
12m midrange, 18w midbass, and when I get the cash for it, the new illuminator tweeters.
I really enjoyed both the EX and NX series Excels.

Same here on the x-overs, but back in the day I ran all active before the decks had them built in (eclipse 5302, now upgraded to a cd7000), and the PG's had 24db 3 ways built in.
Yea I dig the EX series. Always wanted to build the Thor t-line kit, but it's too expensive.
Went with Vifa P17's instead.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (wreckedmyteg)*

Not that the vifas are bad drivers.
Amp rack welded, needs a couple welds grounded down, sand blasted, and painted. first thing I've ever welded so it's not bad. Love the 50 year old arc welder... lol


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

So in retrospect I could have gone with 3/4" steel tube instead of 1". Oh well. overkill is good. 
I also overestimated how much work I could get done with an interview at 11 about a half hour away and cleaning up the apartment, I didn't get started until about 2. Then two and a half hours of fiberglassing has four new layers in the tire well (already one in there to start). Cold weather is really killing cure times. 

Ran out of hardener so I couldn't work on the insides of the dash pods. We're waiting for body filler to hit the green stage on the outside of the pods now. Once that's prelim sanded and second coated - it's off for more resin and a new compact space heater - that will actually heat the inside of the hatch so the resin will cure....


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

everything's virtually done. Cure times are 4hr+ as the temperature keeps dropping. Anyway, here we go.
Here's the old tweeter pods
















Dash pods framed out. The rings are notched so they don't move during glassing. The support was hand carved on a router. Tried to make them as aero-dynamic as possible.








































wrapped, test fitted, and resin'd. Only one layer of glass was put on the fabric, and not on the wood. Every attempt possible to LOWER the resonant frequency of the pod was made. Adding more layers of glass would have farther stiffened the pod which in turn would have increased the resonant frequency. 








































Pods with filler on 'em
















The insides of the pod were deadened with sand and resin, then clay on top of that. each pod weighs in at over 2lbs each.
















In the car
































And the clearance around the neo magnet
















And here's the sub enclosure. Cure times killed me on fab time for it. It should have been done yesterday but times are taking anywhere from 4 hrs +. The second set of layers done yesterday was still tacky today in a few spots. No big deal. Internal airspace is 1.75 cubic feet. A little under the recommended 2 cu ft but it's good enough. 
You may notice the walls are a little thin, about 1/4". The walls of enclosures don't need to be strong as long as they're acoustically dead. Since this is a spare tire enclosure, it will be decoupled to the tirewell walls by thick open-celled foam. The inside of the enclosure will also get the clay treatment when the top is dry and I can reinforce the outside and work on the inside at the same time.
The box sits 2" below the level of the floor of the trunk. The woofers as 1" thick, and the extra space is for excursion and breathing, since the amp rack will sit directly on top of the enclosure. The center of the enclosure isn't done as it will get fully glassed over, and drilled so the spare tire screw can hold the enclosure in place.











































_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 7:25 PM 3-1-2009_


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

tomorrow I pick up some vinyl to wrap the pods, reinforce the lid of the tire-well tub, actually fix the attic door which I've been putting off for the past three days, clay the inside of the sub enclosure, and possibly rework the pillars. I'm not really happy with how they look, kind of ridiculous from outside the car. I'll try and make 'em longer.
btw, here's the new shop assistant. She's much worse than the other one, who... retired.


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## wreckedmyteg (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_ The center of the enclosure isn't done as it will get fully glassed over, and drilled so the spare tire screw can hold the enclosure in place.










What are you going to do for a spare?


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## blazerpounds (Mar 19, 2008)

you mean like a spare sub? I am sure he can get a few.


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## surfmore72 (Oct 20, 2008)

*Re: (wreckedmyteg)*

i see what you mean by the pods up by the pillars...how set are you on having that large of a driver up there? how big are they any way...4inches? it seems a bit tall but only way to decrease the height would be to point them up a bit and im sure you already figured out that thats the angle you want them pointed... i do like the old ones... how they slope back with the angle of the glass...seem a bit more....organic.... so ok your gonna put the tweeters right up there too in the same sorta pod...what if after that you just made a false surround...connecting them both and just fill that whole area then slope it back up to the windshield like the old ones...they(the drivers) just look tall...any bit of shaving to get them down might help... one more idea....what if you just moved it all down towards the side view mirrors maybe directly in front of the pillar of even a bit on the other side of it...good luck...its supposed to warm up this weekend!


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (surfmore72)*

Teg:
You simply cannot fit this much gear in a 4 dr. Believe me, I've looked into it. If I could sink something into the rear doors, I would have. But it's just not possible. I so wish I had a 2rd so I could put the subs in the rear quarters and keep the spare. If I go on a long trip, I'll toss the spare on top of the floor. The Stereo is meant to compete anyway...

Surf:
Really there isn't that much visual space lost. On the drivers side it's about 1.5 sq inch bigger than the inspection sticker. About 3 sq inch on the passenger side lost total. Nothing at all. They're 4.5" mid ranges.
The best wave guide is one that follows the shape of the speakers cone. The way they are angled is the best way to load the speakers to the windshield and dash, period. Only possible better way would be to build a whole new dash removing AC to build a horn, or putting the woofers in the engine bay. In this car, that is just not an option.
The new tweeter pods will end up more sloped back, not nearly so sharp. That's a cosmetic thing. Performance is #1 here. Aesthetics, second. The "false surround" is a possibility, however I actually like the way the midrange pods flow. They're going to vent into the dash when all is said and done.
Moving the midrange outwards simply isn't an option. blocked vision is a non-issue. Path lengths and keeping both front seats with 15* on axis is paramount. Also, the closer you get to the side windows, the more you rely on the windows reflections to generate the desired results. When the windows go down, you lose anything you gain from them and throw everything out of whack.
Controlling reflections in a harsh, variable environment is the key to a consistent image.
I wish I had a jetta...... It would have made EVERYTHING so much easier.
although I am contemplating changing the scan 18ws out for tang band 18" slim mounts........ just an idea

PS, blazer. If you happen to have any W cone focals, I'd be more than happy to give you an honest review of them vs the "ultimate" scan revelators... Or we could just meet up when I start taking the car to comps, and head out west










_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 2:42 AM 3-2-2009_


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

looking good man. Im almost done with my install which was super simple compared to this... how many hours did you put in to this?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (MO.SLIM)*

So far, dash pods have about 8 hours not counting cure time. Pillars about one hour. Amp rack is four hours so far. Spare tire enclosure is about 6-7hrs. Floor mounted midbass are about six hours.


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## bcramer v2.0 (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Pat you never cease to impress me with your work.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
If you do decide to switch out the scans for the tang bands I might be very interested in buying the scans from you depending on how new or used they are.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bcramer v2.0)*









I'm going to have to decline on dropping the scans though. I was looking at the tang bands a little more in-depth today and the cone is just way too heavy for the application - let alone the fact that they don't even list induction. 185grams mms vs 17.5 g for the revelators































































The dust cap must be solid steel!

edit:
only real update for the past two days is the last amp has been sourced and purchased. That leaves..... $400 for tweeters, $1-200 for the sound card, and $250 for inspection/registration violations










_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 6:04 PM 3-3-2009_


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## bcramer v2.0 (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

I didn't think you'd want to part with them, but I had to try. They're the next set of drivers I want to try. I'm not even sure I could fit them though... 
Anyways, the project is looking good and I'll be looking forward to the next updates.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bcramer v2.0)*

So tonights work:
remove evap system
remove old kick panels
work on d-pods
Check.
Check. up for grabs, who wants to step up their kick panel game? heh
























Here's the new style for dash pods. I like the teardrop more than the circle base. It was formed by making a wedge out of dense, thin cardboard, lining the wedge up with the base of the pod, and using filler over. It doesn't have to have any structural integrity, so no glass was used. The last shot is where I ended tonight. I mostly got distracted by CallofDuty4
































And how the sanded one looks just tossed in the car


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for COD4


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## surfmore72 (Oct 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

the pods look sweet! seems much more integrated into dash now...smooth...


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (surfmore72)*

Thanks. They'll turn out pretty nice once covered, that's for sure.
So no glassing today - just didn't feel like it . Did watch matrix 1 and 2, and 3 when I get back from the McD's.
I started new mounts for the floor midbass. The first ones were proof-of-concept. These will be the finals, blended into the floor. Started with a mount-ring and reverse-mount grill ring (will get bar grills protecting from feet)
















I decided to go a different route with the pillars all together. So I busted out the grinder and knocked the old mounts off. Little buggers are full rounded over, and should look a little better than just circles sticking out the side We'll see.

































This is testament to the past couple of days:









Other than sanding both dash pods down to the proper size, that's all we got done today. The next three days, however, are full 8am-midnight+ work days








OH! I forgot. I picked up a set of old A/D/S S8s subs/midbass for the doors. They're going to be in the front doors (since they look SO plain with everything else going on in the car), on a brush system, so they only play when the windows are down all the way.


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 9:32 PM 3-5-2009_


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## DDCapslock (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (MO.SLIM)*

Hmmm. Interesting. Interested in seeing it when it's done!


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (DDCapslock)*









Spent... Six hours. did this three times. I was NOT happy with the cosmetics at all, no matter how I tried.
















So I tried something different. Decided to take the easy way out. Not really "happy" with it - mostly the aiming, but I can make it work.








































































































Flushed the sub box to the sides of the well. Sanded, and started working on the panel that will cover the rest of the floor underneath the amp rack, and allow me to work the sub box into the floor.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

great idea, and good work so far.
IMO though it looks ugly and dumb.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (NFrazier)*

When it comes to cosmetics vs science, science shall prevail. I will end up making another set of on-axis pillars for competitions I'm sure. But for shows and every day driving, the cross firing pillars will have to do.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (MO.SLIM)*

So todays work (all 10 hours of it) was spent mounting the new midbass baffles to the floor of the car (wider lip) and detailing the interior. No fab work done.
Anyone want the new "football" pillars? after careful consideration I have decided I don't really like them either and will be cranking out another set. If anyone want's them as-is I'd like 15 shipped to cover shipping and the cost from the junk yard for these. If you want them finished, shoot me a PM
edit:
forgot - status update:
Knocked these reverse-mount pieces out yesterday. Nothing big.








Here's the pillars..... 
















The bane of my existence.... Total of about 7 hours work time on just the new baffles, rings, and mounting. As good as they are, I HATE working on them. Pulling the carpet back is always a headache and any time and long-term work needs done you have to pull the whole interior.
















And the sub box in the car. Foam underneath to prevent rattling. It still needs internally clayed, the mount piece drilled, and vinyl'd. My little bit of left over vinyl has turned to ****. 








Oh yeah, spent an hour today running new speaker wire. I had to add a fourth strand of 16 gauge for the door midbass. I still have to pull the carpet again next weekend. I'll be adding about 2" of fiberglass insulation (like for the insides of the walls of the house) and a mass material - making my own airborn soundwave killer.

_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 11:46 PM 3-8-2009_


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 11:47 PM 3-8-2009_


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Finally found a tweeter position I like - happy with it from a scientific AND cosmetic perspective. I just pulled out another pair of extra pillars I have laying around
























Also had the last blue toy show up today










_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 11:03 PM 3-9-2009_


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## CodeMan (May 12, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Good work. I like this thread!
What are the specs on the amps?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (CodeMan)*

As will be operated:
Rubicon 302 (tweeters) 60w @ 8 ohms x2
Rubicon 302 (axillary midbass) 80w @ 4 ohms x2
Rubicon 604 (bridged midrange) 300w @ 4 ohms x2
Rubicon 605 (bridged midbass) 300w @ 4 ohms x2
Rubicon 1002 (bridged subs) 1000wrms @ 2 ohms x1


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## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

bored at work...any updates on this?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (MO.SLIM)*

more cut up a-pillars... go figure















Last night was starting sail panel tweeter pods for another Acura Legend.
Started a second job again so I only have one or two nights a week to work now - on top of a couple of cars supposed to swing this way in the next few weeks.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bcramer v2.0)*

bcramer, still interested in the scans?

Money has come extremely tight, so I am letting the midranges go. Midbass as well, possibly. ( 
Will give me some necessary money 
On a side note, 35% of the recovered money for the midranges are going back in to new midranges and tweeters so not all is lost. What is going to happen? MTM. Yeah, baby.


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## bcramer v2.0 (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_bcramer, still interested in the scans?

Money has come extremely tight, so I am letting the midranges go. Midbass as well, possibly. ( 
Will give me some necessary money 
On a side note, 35% of the recovered money for the midranges are going back in to new midranges and tweeters so not all is lost. What is going to happen? MTM. Yeah, baby.


I'm in the same boat. Trying to unload some of my extra gear and stuff right now. Sorry, but there is no extra cash right now.


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## "RON" (Aug 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bcramer v2.0)*

Haven't been on in awhile... Been busy! Wife and I had a baby girl.
Pat; so your putting the mid in the floor like that? Aren't you worried about the speaker?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ("RON")*

Congrats!
The cavity has been sealed from water and the speakers will be getting a bar grill when I come across the proper dresser pulls. The ones I currently have are just a tad too long. That's if I end up keeping the scans - which I probably will....


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## egibbys (Jul 16, 2008)

Quite the project. Curious to see the final outcome.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (egibbys)*

So the scans midranges are sold. I will be ordering the new midrange and tweeters tonight - MTM configuration.
I wanted to use two Vifa TG9 (3.25") midranges, but an MTM configuration would put the baffle past the edge of the dash because of height. Instead, I'll be using two Peerless 2.5" wideranges and Vifa neo D26NC tweeters (oem branded - built for MTMs)
http://www.madisound.com/catal...=8493
http://www.madisound.com/catal...=1078
time to go work on the new pods


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I was going to attempt some pods like these, but at the advice of a trusted friend, the idea was ultimately scrapped.
























































So here's the new plan. MTM. This was the inital mockup for the TG9 mtms. Just a test run using some REALLY cut up pillars. Obviously they're WAY to big. Width wise they are just fine, but height wise... well this ain't no beetle. LOL
























basis mock up with the 2.5" midrange and tweeter, don't mind the airbag - it will be removed and disabled.
























"passing car view"
















and from the rear








Here's some science.
Keep in mind, both "bookshelves" are aimed on-axis with the driver seat - that's why they look a little... funny. I've been advised, and with some casual testing, confirmed the theory that you can not get great sound from both seats. Only medeocrity through unnecessary compromises, tonality or imaging. Dynamics or phase response... And (well known) you can not have true stereo playback in a two seat car. The best you can do is panned monophonic with minimal compromises for one seat. The other... well that's the passenger's seat anyway LOL
The MTMs are positioned at the edge of the dashboard to eliminate any dash-caused reflections. They are far away from any windows, to minimize windshield and side-window reflections. 
MTM's have good horizontal dispersion, and very limited dispersion. This is a GOOD thing in-car because it will eliminate any floor or roof reflections. They have perfectly centered vertical polar response. with two mids vs one tweeter, midrange efficency is increased - the crossover point can be slightly raised. With a 3rd order crossover, you achieve the D'Appolito alignment, which has flat power response and a slightly raised vertical polar response (read - sit high so you can see where you're driving







). The vertical alignment of the midrange and tweeter should provide consistant imaging. The wide location (inside the a-pillars) should provide decent staging (width).
More pictures








since two side of the enclosure are going to be flat, I took some 1/4" hardboard (clipboard material) and made flat sides. I can glass right over the sides without having to stretch any fabric. That's a goood thing.








































And I will finish off the cosmetics by blending the sail panels into the face of the MTM so it doesn't look rediculious. The pillar side will be cut out and the MTMs will vent into the dash. for better low-end response. They only have to play down to about 400-700hz, but the extra space should help transients at least.








Glassing starts tomorrow.
No, the pillars do not sit on the dash.


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 10:40 PM 3-24-2009_


----------



## "RON" (Aug 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

What are you putting in those pods? I like the original ones! Way to over the top for me! LOL
Are you going to be using any horns?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ("RON")*

I had to sell the speakers going in the original pods. Money. damn it.
These pods are getting two Peerless 2.5" midrange woofers, and a Vifa tweeter each.
No horns.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

mtm insides glassed. For reference, there are my pods on the left, and some acura tweeter pod bases on the right. Those acura pods are serious business














































And started working on the power distro location


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

got the wrap and resin on








































picked up a tap and will be tapping the amp rack as soon as the new south park is over


----------



## Dub_n_irie (Mar 10, 2009)

wow bro this is some serious craziness going on. thats gonna be some nice power going through your car. just curious are you going more for spl or sq?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Dub_n_irie)*

Well you cannot have SQ in a car without a center-seat-driver. A little problem and fundamental flaw with "sound quality". In fact a little pet peeve of mine is calling it a stereo system, when it cannot produce stereo sound. Stereo requires to speakers equally spaced apart from a line extending from the face of the listener (perpendicular to the shoulders/back) to form an equilateral triangle, and toed in 30 degrees so that they fire directly on-axis with the listeners ears. The best you can achieve in a car is while trying to use stereophonic playback is panned monophonic.

SPL is for chumps.


----------



## DubRadio (Oct 15, 2003)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_
SPL is for chumps.


amen to that







I remember the days of ear blasting spl levels and broken windsheilds... it got old real fast. 
Quality > quantity ...
Great work btw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jedimindcontrol (Apr 7, 2003)

*Re: (DubRadio)*

damn...insane project you have going on here.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (surfmore72)*

Cut and re-did the tops of the pillars. Looks much more smooth and integrated now.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (surfmore72)*

done more work. MTMs are being sanded. Amprack was drilled and tapped (drill bit kept breaking so I had to return it like four times - every time was a one-day set-back.
Had to stop for a bit today to hang some cabinet doors. Didn't get a shot of the mtms though









Now it's off to my night job


----------



## Adam-96 (Oct 10, 2008)

Subscribed + a free bump!
I'm a little jealous and very inspired. I know how much fun it is to build a project as meticulous as this. This thread has me really looking forward to my next car to do it all over again.
If you don't mind my asking, what method did you use to aim your speakers, both kicks and pillars?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Adam-96)*

Thanks. The only really hard part about it is finding time and money to work on the car while I'm trying to work two full time jobs and trying to pay off some bad debt.
Method of aiming: as wide and as on-axis as possible. Left speakers at the left ear, right speakers at the right ear.


----------



## burton727 (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

hounestly, this looks like a big hack job imo http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## JDriver1.8t (May 20, 2005)

*Re: (burton727)*

^obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## MO.SLIM (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

still watching, looking forward to seeing the final product http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (MO.SLIM)*

I really gotta get you guys some pics of the panels. They're turning out wonderfully. First set I'm truly happy with.
I keep forgetting though.
Tomorrow over my lunch break I'll begin wiring the amp rack up. Quick disconnects everywhere. Gotta make it removable







Two straight evenings to work, though. Hopefully I'll have the rack completely wired up by Wednesday night. 
Good stuff.


----------



## KellerMKIV GLI (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (JDriver1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JDriver1.8t* »_^obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.
 X 2
I wish I had enough skill to do a "hack" job like that.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (burton727)*

Now now guys.

_Quote, originally posted by *burton727* »_hounestly, this looks like a big hack job imo http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

If there's something that could be done differently, or better, let me know. I'd be glad to hear it.
Grinded the new pillar body down, glassed the insides with two layers of 3/4oz, and began trimming out the backside to vent into the dash.
























Started wiring the amp rack, as promised. Most of the wires are cut. I decided things would be better if I flipped the bottom amps and ran all the wires through the center. The left and right channels for the car are going to use their respected sides of the amplifiers. Screw the conventional CH-1=L & CH-2=R nonsense. CH-L=L and CH-R=R and that's how it should be. Amp grounds will ground directly to the rack. The rack will then ground to the chassis. I had to stop because I realized I had to file taxes by tonight... HA. that and I had too much guinness. Obviously nothing is secured or tech-flexed yet. Everything will be organized and bolted to the rack rails
I have to order some shielded cable for custom RCAs and 4 gauge ring terminals.










_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 11:04 PM 4-14-2009_


----------



## KellerMKIV GLI (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Pat, wonder if I could pick your brain about Soundstream amps. I remember them from back in the day but no one had any here in the corn fields where I grew up. Found on ebay a Rubicon 204 and 502 guy is selling them both together. My question is would the 204 be enough to power my Polk/Momo 6.5" components? I was wanting to bi-amp them but the amp was rated at 25 watts into 4 channels. To me that doesn't seem like enough power but I've heard these amps are way underated. What do you think?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (KellerMKIV GLI)*

Come on royal guard, come let the people in. 
Flaming arrows by hundreds 








Sure, for a basic system there's no reason the 204 couldn't be powerful enough. If you are staying passive, I would bridge it and get 100wrms per channel. The Rubicons are underrated. Not as much as the original Reference series. I have not had any of mine bench tested but I figured the 604's to be underrated about 15-20w per channel.
And you mean 501. no biggy.


----------



## KellerMKIV GLI (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

A little "Red Horse Rainbow" eh. Clutch is one of my all time favorite bands. Their sound is just classic and never really gets old to me. Can't wait for their new one to come out this summer.








Kind of was wanting to bi-amp the components to have more control. I guess I'll wait to see how much higher the bids go. Current bid is like $54. Thanks for the info and I'll be watching your build thread. Looks freaking awesome so far. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (KellerMKIV GLI)*

Clutch is definitely in my top 4







. Nothing like a classic rock sound with a heavy blues influence and a singer who sounds like he is gargling gravel.
Got as much wiring done as possible. I would have tech-flexed the power wire but it doesn't fit inside the amp terminals. Might give it another go later on.... 
The local "store" wouldn't open their doors so I could get any terminals. I had to order a PC 24pin extension and EPS12v extension for the quick-disconnect speaker wire harnesses, so those didn't get done.
Meh.








My the way, I was doing some thinking and something came to mind: channel separation. That is how much sound leaks across channels. Normally, when running active, one amp is for the tweeters, one amp for the midrange, one for the midbass, etc. Well, you're still getting bleeding across left and right channels. By running all the same-side speakers off of the same amp(s), then bleeding will be less influential.
I would have had some work done on the pillars, but the Acura Legend came to the garage, and after much discussion, we laid out plans for a metal amp rack. hah


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 12:30 AM 4-16-2009_


----------



## bcramer v2.0 (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *burton727* »_hounestly, this looks like a big hack job imo http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


As long as we're being honest, you're an idiot.
Pat, keep the progress coming, it's looking good.


----------



## crnacnac (Aug 3, 2004)

Looks great so far!


----------



## KellerMKIV GLI (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Haven't seen any updates for awhile. Just wondering what you have up too Pat.


----------



## DubRadio (Oct 15, 2003)

*Re: (KellerMKIV GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KellerMKIV GLI* »_Pat, wonder if I could pick your brain about Soundstream amps. I remember them from back in the day but no one had any here in the corn fields where I grew up. Found on ebay a Rubicon 204 and 502 guy is selling them both together. My question is would the 204 be enough to power my Polk/Momo 6.5" components? I was wanting to bi-amp them but the amp was rated at 25 watts into 4 channels. To me that doesn't seem like enough power but I've heard these amps are way underated. What do you think?


No meaning to thread hijack - 
Keller,
The rubby 204 is not quite enough to drive those P/M 6.5 components (mmc6500), the 501 is however plenty, I would really try and bi amp the polks and leave the rear passive off the head. The p/m can get plenty "punchy" with a reasonable amount of power thrown to them while still being crisp on the top end.
-Kyle
Polkaudio


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (DubRadio)*

Oh come come now. Any amp is enough to drive any speaker. Just to what audible level of distortion








Keller, pics of the pillars coming right up. Headliner is out of the car. Taking everything to be wrapped when the money comes in. Got some new wheels, 18x8.5s. nothing done in the back. Been spending most of my recent free-time with my new lady friend.


----------



## JDriver1.8t (May 20, 2005)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

That why you didn't come down to NC?
Hijack warning:

I STARTED my project:
















Nowhere near done, so I don't want to hear any complaints about how ugly it looks now, or how it doesn't make any sense. The ground wire is 3' long because I'm not sure where it will end up yet. Same reason the batteries are held down like they are.


_Modified by JDriver1.8t at 5:41 PM 5-11-2009_


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (JDriver1.8t)*

Man you and Evan. I'm trying, I swear!

The battery under my hood is currently held down the same way until I can weld a mount LOL

I don't know why you insist on keeping that 8w7.
I couldn't get any room. The car is garaged for now.









I was wrong, there are a few spots that I'm working out. then it's off to get them stitched.


----------



## KellerMKIV GLI (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_ Taking everything to be wrapped when the money comes in. Been spending most of my recent free-time with my new lady friend.

No wonder your short on money then! Don't you know "lady friends" tend to drain your bank account!








Just kidding man everythings looking great. Can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## addictedtogum (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: (KellerMKIV GLI)*

finished?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Hardly. Pillars are finished, but need to be covered. Money is very short right now. Amp rack is done. Battery may be getting relocated and sub(s) changed to four 8's located in the passenger feet wells. Have to clear room under the hood for an AWIC core, and as long as tactile transfer between speakers in that location and the seats aren't bad, it sounds like a winning plan to me.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Figured I'd post what little pics I have.

Because of where the AWIC needs to go, the battery is (yet again) being relocated to the back. Sub is being moved from the spare tire well to the corner, and venting out the vent for true IB. Not the best approach but what I can do. I figure it should work a little better anyway because the sub will no longer be trying to load the amps, as opposed to the cabin air. Distros are going in the well with the battery. Have to take some measurements and pick up metal to weld it together.

















Mids and tweeters fitted to the MTMs, not mounted, just fitted. Virtaully completed front stage. If anyone knows where I can find a RIGHT HAND DRIVE front passenger door (4 door only) in the states or canada, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I am looking to replace MY drivers door with a RHD PASSENGER door.

































Been working on trying to fit these in here:
























And these for that dag nab Acura Legend that doesn't ever leave me alone.








Down and out with Mono. Meh.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

So it's been a while but I've stopped working 17 days a week again and dropped back down to 12. Time off







yay.
Yesterday I spent prepping the stroker engine for assembly. Today: car.
I've been meaning to do this for a while but have been so busy and tired that I haven't. Well today was good.
So because of the engine build, the battery has to go to the back again, which means the sub enclosure has to change. I will be welding up a mount for it next week, no big deal. The amp rack is going to be re-welded once I can get some steel ordered for the shop. It's going to be 1/2" instead of 1" but the same design. When I build this rack, I mis-measured (well, was lied to about dimensions) and had to build the rack almost 1.5" taller than it was supposed to be. Well, this time it will be done right - should be almost 3" shorter. Low profile false floor = good stuff.
Today, I took this old crappy mold (from two years ago):








and started trimming. It's only two or three layers so it wasn't bad. 
Well, first I finished the sides (top and right side):
















And cut this little hole out. While I don't really like the notion of IB anymore, I really REALLY don't like the notion of small subs. I will not settle with a single 8 or 10 when each door is getting an 8 for midbass/subbass reinforcement when the windows are down. So the mag IV 12 is staying. 
I would not call this hole quality work. In fact I wouldn't really call it good work, but I needed something quick to build up off of. It will be smoothed out of course. The hole was cut, prepped, and glassed in about 30 minutes. The biggest problem was getting the OEM pressure flapper out without taking off the rear bumper. Biach didn't stand a change when I got mad and pulled out the razor knife.
I couldn't just let it go sealed, as it's only about .5 cu ft and I refuse to run smaller subs. Honestly, it should be better this way anyway. Being so close to the amps is restricting airflow and because the amps are over-top of the sub, most of the acoustical energy is going in to vibrating the amps that are directly on top. This way the sub is un-restricted and more in the cabin.
















I'll probably end up adding some fiberglass nsulation and make it a psuedo IB enclosure.


----------



## CyberJock (Jun 22, 2003)

That car would be stolen in record time here in California with all that visible equipment..lol


----------



## DUBsportGLX (Aug 12, 2003)

Cant wait to see it when it's finished


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

good thing this car won't be going to Cali any time soon!


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

3 days off work. Test fitting 8's in the doors. I hate using doors as enclosures but these will probably only be on when the windows are down.
























Working on new a-pillars and tweeter pods to test out an interesting (to me) theory I'm expanding about effect of sound in person vs at a concert.. Needless to say the design will not be playing "stereo".
It will incorporate acoustical the theories/principles of Pi-Stereo, Panned Monophonic reproduction, OSD (optimal source distribution), front and rear loading via waveguides, GURT (Werewolf's Grand Unified Reflection Theory), Line Arrays, a localization theory I've been studying(no name - let's call it venue and environmental effect theory: VEET), and good-old fashion psychoacoustics.
*The basis is this:*
conventional approach: minimizing reflections and creating a stereo image (actually, it's a panned mono image). 
strong points (when done right):
1) very high intelligibility
2) uniform stage positions but with limited width
flaws: 
1) limited output as a function of number of speakers and placement requirements
2) highly restricted dynamics
3) can only focus on one seat - all others compromised
4) using stereo and acoustical crosstalk to turn a dual-image in to a single mono channel with left and right panning
think 3d-glasses. The image has a blue and red image that appear left and right. When you put the glasses on, it becomes a single unit. That's the way STEREO is supposed to work. In a car this is not possible due to off-center seating.
My intentions:
pros:
1) very high output 
2) very low distortion at high output
3) stage experience for all seats similar to as if you were sitting at a concert in the same seating arrangements with your friends (in a group of four)
weaknesses:
ultimately unknown
1) I expect intelligibility to suffer
2) I expect frequency response to be uneven - although it can be manipulated
*cliff notes:*
Instead of trying to reproduce the a larger environment in the smaller car (conventional) I will be forcing the car to act the same as the larger environment


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (KellerMKIV GLI)*

Work on the door pods: waterproofing. Fully coated with resin, primer, then paint. I DON'T want to have to remake these.... ever. Also shows the goofy cutting required to fit these large rings to the window regulator.
















And thought this was interesting - the line-up: Dynaudio mw150, Scanspeak Revelator 7's, Madisound 8's









Sub box. 3 more layers of fiberglass (5-6 layers total). Due to the location, shape, and venting this will be sufficient. Doesn't flex at all when jumping on it. Thank god it's all wrinkley. Was a biach to glass though.








Here's the vent. Cut a piece out of 1/2" MDF for adding the Aperiodic mat to. Was glassed in from the inside (not the outside - waste of time), cut, rabbited, and grinded the transition as smooth as possible on the inside. Last pic is of the vent inside the car.








































And fitting the sub in to the box. The top could not be made bigger or else removal wouldn't be easily possible. No problem. Will be fully glassed internally. A spacer is needed because of the small interior size. This one was cut with a temp piece of wood. I didn't have anything big enough for a full version. I will end up making some kind of larger design I'm sure. The mold is currently held to the baffle using a couple of L-brackets (2 on top and 1 on bottom)
























And the new box in contrast to what _used_ to be there. LAWL

















_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 9:04 PM 8-24-2009_


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 9:04 PM 8-24-2009_


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Door is screwed in. Little more trimming and it'll be a perfect fit. not NEARLY as bad as I expected it to be. 1/4 doors. about a 2 on the difficulty scale before cutting, about a 5 after, and about a 7 after the finishing glassing. But hey, I get to keep the map pocket! That's exciting!




























































_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 10:58 PM 8-24-2009_


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Door2 








FS: rings AND speakers for installing 8's in the front doors. 2 rings, two speakers. Finishing stuffs not included. $45 shipped.
Rings don't fit the back doors. Too much modification to make 'em work - just have to re-cut. Noob mistake. Damn.
A sprained ankle (chasing after my Pomeranian puppy) and old-main pains in my knee aren't stopping me yet.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Yeah... it's been a month but I've finally had a chance to work again. 
Today is getting cut what needs cut. 
Like I said before, the MTMs are out. I had a chance to play with the mtms, and got stuck at a point where I could not get the tonal characteristics where I wanted them. For me, tonality comes first, then staging, then imaging. I know I can't get what I want out of them so they're being replaced. Due to pricing/fabbing and the requirement to have some gauge pods later on, the a-pillar array is out, instead working on a horizontal dash-array project. I have a little more research to do before I finalize the positioning of the tweeters, but it will consist of 8 tweeters, 4 per channel, and 20 midranges, 10 per channel.
As for cutting, trim pieces for the trunk:
















And the dash-pods mocked up:
















Working now to get the rear fill baffle cut. 
Tomorrow I pick up and fab together the new amp-rack and battery box and carpc enclosure. Cannot fiberglass until the shipment of supplies comes in







Hopefully by the weekend. Come Saturday, it's a race against the clock getting an enclosure designed and built and trunk-trim out done in one day so I can take it down to North Carolina.

As for the MTMS and spare-tire enclosure. If anyone wants them:
MTMs, free + shipping and cost of the speakers ($65 shipped continental)
Tire enclosure: free + shipping (~$30)
Neither are 100% done, so expect to do a little work. The spare tire enclosure needs a cap glassed to the center for the spare-tire screw down. The MTMs will need covered, either painted or wrapped/stitched. Can have 'em finished off, but at a cost.


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 3:50 PM 10-6-2009_


----------



## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

This is absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Pat, are you on some kind of drug that makes you see crazy shapes and designs?
I want some please......LOL
This looks sick.
Now, I am in now way looknig to compete at shows or anything, I do want great sound.
If you have time to answer a couple questions for me, IM me sometime.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Guinness.
Hit me up with anything you need


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

you already looked at my thread.
thanks for the info.
oh, hey. Guinness does nothing like that....I know from years of experience.
I even built this as a tribute.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (oopseyesharted)*

I've done some foolish things because of Gunness and Woodchuck... like try to remove an alternator with a hammer. whoops








I picked up my first of three kegs of Guiness - empty. Gonna weld up a wicked new fiberglassing station standing on those three kegs.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Do you still have those MTMs?
I really feel out of the audio loop after reading some of your stuff Pat.
8 tweets?
20 mids?
I am gonna sound dumb and I am compared to you, but why so much?
I have no doubt it will be beautiful to hear, but why so much???
LOL
What type of crossovers are you using?
What type of mids and tweets do you buy that allow so many to be used per channel?
I have always wanted to build a beautiful sounding SQ car. This has really got my creative side thinking again.
Mine would be in an 85 jetta coupe.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (KellerMKIV GLI)*

forgot to mention that I need the answers in plain english....LOL


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (oopseyesharted)*

Haha.
Yeah I still have the MTMs. I'll probably play with them some more for the hell of it.
The reason I'm going to use so many is two reasons: dynamics and distortion. I love dynamics.
Our ears end up auto-equalizing frequency response over time. It's simple to test - just get in someone elses car and it just won't sound right. The reason is you're ears are used to hearing YOUR car.
But dynamics. Dynamics, simply put, is the ability of the system to transition between very loud and very quiet passages seamlessly, without touching the volume knob. Think of the Symphony. You'll have moments of near-silence and then it'll erupt in to a deafening roar with the firing of a cannon. This is extremely hard, if not impossible, to replicate inside of a car. The only way to do it is with a lot of power, and a lot of speakers. with the mids and tweeters positioned the way they are, they should have a slight gain (increase in output) due to the loading, how their position against the windshield and dash emulate a horn.
Also, this system, although playing in stereo, is aiming to reproduce a mono signal with panning (different from panned mono). The only car stereos that play stereo and *reproduce* stereo are those with ONE SEAT in the CENTER of the car. Every single other car *reproduces* panned mono. Think that's important? You bet








The reason for this is acoustical crosstalk. Acoustical crosstalk is simply the information the left ear hears from a right-placed speaker, and the right ear hears from a left-placed speaker. The sound wrapping around our faces changes the time of arrival (sound hitting the ear drum) and frequency response. This is how we localize sound.
Panned mono systems _can_ allow you to localize sound in the horizontal axis. It does NOT allow us to localize sound in the vertical axis (conrolled by HRTF, head related transfer function (the effect the head and face have on time delay, intensity, and frequency response of a sound)) and it does NOT allow us to localize sound in the depth axis (how far in front of us - controlled by frequency response and acoustical crosstalk).
To be fair, Stereo doesn't allow vertical localization either. No playback method does.
What I'm hoping to achieve is mono with panning (or left/right biasing). The brain assumes the signal received comes from one source (as with any playback method). However, as opposed to stereo and other playback methods that try to trick the brain in to localizing sound through crosstalk, I'll be trying to show the brain a single wave-front. As if all the sound was coming from one big speaker. Each side will still play stereo left and right, but because of the enveloping nature of the array, the sound should be unified, with differences only appearing in left-of-center and right-of-center. 
Basically, I don't care about localization. I could give a rats-arse about where it sounds like the saxophone is coming from with this system, as long as if it's on the left, it kind of sounds like it's on the left.
For crossovers, I'll be using my trusty dual-core carpc. I'll probably dabble with FIR filters, but will end up with some other software. The compute will split the signal up, and send each channel to it's respective amp. Each speaker (or cluster) has it's own amplifier channel - this is called an "active" crossover setup.
http://www.dspguru.com/info/faqs/firfaq.htm
There is nothing that limits the amount of speakers you use other than location and crossover. With an active crossover, you can easily compensate and adjust the crossover to wherever you like. With a passive system, if you add more speakers, you change the point, slope, response, everything.
A couple of things to keep in mind:
1) you can have a great sounding car with very little. Great is all in our individual perception - it's relative
2) ALWAYS follow the rules of physics. Just because you're in a car doesn't mean you can rely on magic or marketing hogwash to guide you.
3) you can never truly have a SQ car, until you have only one seat - in the center of the car


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Well I have 2 sets of focal 6.5 inch components and a set of 3 ways eclipse components.
I became inspired by your 8 inch midrange speakers in the door and began looking around for a nice set of thin 8 inchers.
I am running all kicker amps now....kx series 2 channel and 4 channel.
They are ok, but i really want a pair of old school matching xtant amps.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (KellerMKIV GLI)*

Also, what do you recommend for a head unit?
I have a pioneer.
7100bt or some crap, but I have heard that eclipse and alpine both sound waaaayayayayyyyy better.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (oopseyesharted)*

Cleanup of the doors should be relatively easy. A little bit of hardboard, and fiberglass and done. 
Nothing wrong with kicker amps as long as you're not using class D for the highs. 
Two sets of components generally is NOT a good idea - especially if they're mounted in the doors. I would suggest if you stick with this route, drop one of the tweeters.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I was thinking of running a single tweeter anyway....in the a pillar.
The 2 6.5 mids would be in each door.
I am also using a pair of focal 6.5 2 ways in the rear deck.
What headunit brands do you recommend?
I am 100% Ipod right now. I am thinking of sat radio as well.
how is the dash coming along?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (oopseyesharted)*

No time since the materials arrived. Out of town for this weekend and have a car lined up for next weekend. Between school and work I have no time for the car.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Thats sucks man, at least you are staying busy.
What do u recommend for a headunit?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

cough, cough. Computer.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

LOL.....do you have any idea how many people say pioneer is good?
how many say alpine is the best, others say eclipse is the best. I was wondering what you thought.
cough cough jerk......LOL jk


----------



## sirswank (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (oopseyesharted)*

nakamichi first
alpine second
people like pioneer because the avic d3 and so on are the only double din HU's that easily match mk4 and mk5 lighting


----------



## dr.chop (Apr 8, 2009)

man, that is going back. nak head units. I remember those back in the 90's.


----------



## SQRABBIT (Aug 28, 2008)

Not trying to flame just trying help out a little. From the looks of it your system is going to perform very poorly. There is way to much going on. You might want to simpify your system. Pick a great set of mid ranges first, then a good mid-bass, then a sub/subs. Get a great eq or processor and you will be good to go. Some of the best looking and sounding installs are the simple ones. Best of luck on your system.


----------



## JDriver1.8t (May 20, 2005)

*Re: (SQRABBIT)*

dems fitin wurds


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Hey, sorry about not letting you know about today. If it wasn't 5 hours out of the way (there and back) I would have swung down. Next trip for sure.
Dems are fighting words.
Simple systems = just as many, if not more, problems as complicated systems. The only difference is it takes less work install them to the car.

As I'm sure you noticed, there IS a great set of midranges. A great set of midbass (doesn't get too much better than scan revs). A good set of tweeters. And a great subwoofer. If you read the thread you would understand that the door midbass will NOT play unless the windows are down to compensate for the lack of cabin gain. You'll also understand that I'm not trying to produce a stereophonic image, usually associated with "stereos", be it home or car.



_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 10:07 PM 10-25-2009_


----------



## SQRABBIT (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I did read the thread please don't be offended but there is alot better gear out there. If you are truely using great gear there will be no problems. I get good mid bass with my windows up and down, and just because you do more work doesn't mean your car will sound better. My old sq car had a set of JL audio XR653's and 2 12W7's an alpine CDA7998 head, and a PXAH701 processor and controler and it took me to finals. It really looks like to my you don't know what gear you want to use, hence all the changes. Like i said before I'm not trying to flame you I'm just trying to offer a little advice. Take if you want to or let it fly in the wind like a broken dream


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Just trying to open up discussion.
It's impossible to have consistent midbass with windows up or down, *especially* while the car is moving.
Great gear does NOT equate to great performance. The switching of gear is called using the right equipment for each type of installation. As an experienced installer I would expect you to understand how differences in drivers affects their performance when applied differently.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Pat pat pat pat pat!!!!!
Lets go Pat!!!!!!!


----------



## charcoal grey (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (SQRABBIT)*

IMO scans are some of the better drivers made. I don't think quality of drivers is an issue. If I could afford them I would use them in my car. 
As far as system design goes, there are many different ways to do it. Every car will sound differently. One may benefit from kick locations, one from a-pillar locations. Without experimenting I don't feel you can ever get the best sound out of the car. One way may sound great, but another way may sound amazing. Not all builds will be conventional. One of my favorite builds was this bmw, which pulled apart 13K B&W speakers for use in the car and located 15" subs up front.








For anyone interested, more info can be found here. http://milbert.com/autos/earl


----------



## sirswank (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (charcoal grey)*

i remember that car, i think i still have that issue. 
i think some people don't understand the difference between "sounds good" and "correct sounding" using an RTA
it's the difference between the butt dyno and getting the car on the machine. 
as i understand it, Pat is building this for comps, so how you think your car sounds is irrelevant. it all comes down to the judges and the machine. 


_Modified by sirswank at 9:10 AM 10-26-2009_


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (sirswank)*

That Bmw is insane. 
Does bring the subs to the front really make that much of a difference?
i would think some well placed midbass drivers would be sufficient.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (sirswank)*

Yes, the Zausmer BMW. That's case in point for my argument for dyanmics. Biggest flaw in the Zausmer BMW is the off-center seating. Remember, you can NOT get correct imaging with off-center seating. It's *physically* impossible.
Earl's earlier version of the car was this:
http://milbert.com/Files/Autos/Earl/Caraudio1.jpg
Many felt this setup was much more accurate than the one posted earlier. However he wanted more output. Obviously, expecting good usable output from a 4.5 or 3" is as hard as going to the moon on prayer alone. It's not possible. The array of 2"s will have a combined SD of roughly 31.4sq in per side. In comparison, a 7" speaker has an Sd of roughly 22sq in per side.
Earls car is also a perfect example of direct vs reflected sound and it's effect on staging. Neither set-up has an overwhelming amount of reflected sound - something that's unavoidable with kicks/doors/floors. The only real way to get the best direct/reflected sound ratio is dash mounted on-axis speakers. Kicks CAN work if on-axis but then you're also going to deal with diffraction. 



_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 3:20 PM 10-26-2009_


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I understood 6 words in that last post.....LMAO


----------



## SQRABBIT (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

It's not impossible with proper tuning. I have one setting for windows up and another for windows down. So there was no need to and to the doors. As an experienced installer I also know that every system needs to be tuned for a specific car since no two cars are alike. I also know that using better gear gives you a better platform to start with. Regaurdless of the gear you give me I can make it perform.


----------



## SQRABBIT (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (charcoal grey)*

I also believe that that was a great car. You fail to see that since those are meant for a home application that is why he has them on-axis, and on the dash. The majority of the gear out today has been engineerd to work off-axis so it fit a consumers day to day needs. The other benifit is that from a kick, or from a door location you will get a high sound stage. So there is no need to mount the drivers physically on your dash.


----------



## SQRABBIT (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (sirswank)*

Apparently you don't. Have you ever heard a car that is meant to flat line a RTA? Let me tell you from experience, it sounds like crap. In my show car I use one setting for the RTA, and one for the judges. RTA's are great for seeing where you need to begin. I also compete and was very sucessful at it. I am a world finalist so I think that qualifies me when I say how my/or any car sounds.


----------



## SQRABBIT (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I understand your argument Pat I'm trying to open you up to other ways of solving your problem. Like I said I'm not trying to flame you just offering advice.


----------



## sirswank (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (SQRABBIT)*

your quotes didn't work.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (SQRABBIT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SQRABBIT* »_It's not impossible with proper tuning. I have one setting for windows up and another for windows down. So there was no need to and to the doors. As an experienced installer I also know that every system needs to be tuned for a specific car since no two cars are alike. I also know that using better gear gives you a better platform to start with. Regaurdless of the gear you give me I can make it perform.

If you feel comfortable re-adjusting the EQ for midbass and subbass every time you put the windows down, more power to you. I'd rather take the direct approach and solve a physical problem with a physical solution http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Honestly, the only difference between great gear and cheap gear comes down to build quality. Plain and simple. The more expensive gear really doesn't make it a better platform to start on simply because it's expensive and assumed to be better. It simply comes down to using the PROPER speaker in the PROPER application. The last sentence of this quote contradicts the line before it.

_Quote, originally posted by *SQRABBIT* »_I also believe that that was a great car. You fail to see that since those are meant for a home application that is why he has them on-axis, and on the dash. The majority of the gear out today has been engineerd to work off-axis so it fit a consumers day to day needs. The other benifit is that from a kick, or from a door location you will get a high sound stage. So there is no need to mount the drivers physically on your dash.

Let me break this argument in to two parts: First, the Zausmer BMW. The fact that the speakers were originally intended for a home installation does *NOT* mean they were intended for on-axis listening. The choice to mount speakers on-axis is made to try to eliminate any discrepancies between two speakers mounted at non-equal angles to the listener. As you move more and more off-axis, the top end rolls off. This is a PHYSICAL function of the DIAMETER of the speaker. Therefore, the woofers kept on-axis will have similar response as they approach their beaming frequency.
Next, the gear today (assuming you mean car-audio gear) HAS in fact been designed for off-axis play. How so? Well typically a higher QTS of most "car audio speakers" allows more play in installation for door-mounting, where 99% of their placement is going to be. This allows for more low end extension. Played on-axis, these speakers are going to have a rise in response in the lower frequencies, making them muddy sounding. THIS is the reason most enthusiasts prefer home-theater speakers. They are not designed to have a rising output in lower frequencies and thus, their response can be more accurately controlled based off of installation. 

_Quote, originally posted by *SQRABBIT* »_Apparently you don't. Have you ever heard a car that is meant to flat line a RTA? Let me tell you from experience, it sounds like crap. In my show car I use one setting for the RTA, and one for the judges. RTA's are great for seeing where you need to begin. I also compete and was very sucessful at it. I am a world finalist so I think that qualifies me when I say how my/or any car sounds. 

I know this one isn't for me, but I would just like to say RTA's are a terrible tool. They measure response in 2-D, while the sound is actually being produced in 3-D. 
Again, I'd like to keep discussion going. I really have no genuine interest in competing and I'm not saying you don't know what's what. I just think it's silly to have to change tuning for windows up/down while still and windows up'down while moving


----------



## sirswank (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_
I really have no genuine interest in competing 


well i was wrong. have fun, i'm out


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (sirswank)*

At one point I did, but not really any more. If I happen to go to one it will be to meet other people, not to try for a trophy.


----------



## SQRABBIT (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

It's not really as bad as you think changing a settings, 1 is for windows down and 2 is for windows up/judges, and 3 is my RTA setting. I always ride with my windows down unless its raining so it's really not that bad. We could go back and forth but the reality is I'm a bit new school at fixing problems and you take more of an old school approach. Niether way is wrong, it's just more preference I guess. Happy building, can't wait to see the end product.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

How is it going Pat?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (oopseyesharted)*

Dandy. Starting to get drunk. You?
Tomorrow I should have the array almost completely glassed. I love knytix. DBM 1708 ast uscomposites. 17oz of weave for a flat build-up on top of 3/4oz chop mat. Super high-strength and fast buildup.


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 12:46 AM 10-29-2009_


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

No pics????
Dont hold out on me man.
Can you do me a favor and post some links to your knytix?


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

My bad, knytex.
http://www.uscomposites.com/specialty.html
I really don't know if I feel motivated to work now. I guess I'll give it a shot - I have about two and a half hours before work tonight.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

That stuff isnt badly priced either.
I am having a hard time finding resin for a reasonable price.
getting annoying buying it fro autozone all the time.


----------



## dr.chop (Apr 8, 2009)

see if you have a local plastics shop. There is one close to me and they get about $100 for 5 gal or $28-$35 for a single gallon. They have the clear resins, laminating resin, finishing resin...You can get a lot more at places like that if you have one around.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

thank u Dr. Chop


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Indeed. I don't. Marine shops also carry materials. USComposites sells resin too. I'm a big fan of B440, slow-gelling resin and low B404 low-temp (low shrinkage) resin.
http://www.uscomposites.com/polyesters.html


----------



## dr.chop (Apr 8, 2009)

I have bought some at lowe's/home depot before as well. Usually about $35 per gal there too.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (dr.chop)*

friggin 12 bucks a quart at autozone.....bastards


----------



## dr.chop (Apr 8, 2009)

yeah, F that!! Too much money there. I know some Wal Marts have Resin too, but not sure the sizes.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (dr.chop)*

You DON'T want that resin. Those resins have a wax base. This makes the resin heavier while not adding ANY strength. Low quality product. Buy real marine resin. It has a different lighter base. You can tell based on the resin color alone. Cheap wax resins have a yellow color to them while non-was resins have either a blue/purple/clear color.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

So no work was done yesterday but I have the whole weekend off work - starting tonight. I can officially say my forearms are completely covered in resin. The hardest glassing I've ever done due to being out-of-position. But half of the glassing is done.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I am going to the marine shop tomorrow thats down the street from my house.
I figure a gallon of resin will be good.
What kind of mat should I ask for?
I am building a box for 2 xtant 12" subs (old school subs, not the new xtant crap)


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Standard build is 3/4 oz chop. If you're not making any crazy curves or shapes, do 1oz or 1.5oz for a fast buildup. If they have biaxial weave, or better, triaxial weave, that's the best. That's what the knytex is. It doesn't form well, so flats and gradual curves only, but it builds up quick and is much stronger than just chop or mat.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*

left side. Don't know what's up with the camera. The frays, unavoidable, are from the weaving coming loose from manipulation.










_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 10:37 PM 10-30-2009_


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Thanks Pat.
I just found out I have a head gasket job or even worse rings to do on my coupe.















That work you just posted looks insane!!!!
I cant wait to see it!


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*

had to remake the panels. Not enough hardener for the change in temperature. After two or three days it was still soggy - even with a heater on it. So re-did it. Don't mind the slight air-pockets on the front - the strength of the baffle will be entirely fiberglass. That and the mdf doesn't exactly have the best seal to the shape of the dash AND windshield...
. I still have another layer to put on the front. There will be about 1/2" extension past the baffle to allow a grill to be made. I just did the left side. Right side will come the next time I get time.


















_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 9:44 PM 11-4-2009_


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

damn Pat, that is gonna be crazy.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

tomorrow I get to work on the passenger side and doors. Hopefully. Also have to dig up some mesh to try and make covers for the midbass in the floors


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

sweet!
I wish I lived close enough to see this in person.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

VERY happy with today's progress. The only problem is I'm almost out of resin. I've gone through a whole gallon on four parts......
Right side of the array








Started on the door skins. Door was lined with a trash bag, door card masked, marked, and then glassed.
























New case for the carpc
























Oh, and I'm going to purge a lot of the old images. I'll have them on file, only leaving the important ones uploaded.


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 7:29 PM 11-9-2009_


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

wow.....badass


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*

Having a little problem getting the doors to cure, so I did what any sane person would do:
I pointed the 125,000 btu space heater at the drivers door (10' away) and let it run for 20 minutes. Passenger side gets 10 as the little space heater is on that one


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

that sucks....is it freezin up there?
its 74 right now....LOL


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (oopseyesharted)*

Nah, 60 or so in the garage (underground and partially heated.) I just mixed the batch a little cold.
Both doors fully cured. Glass is going to remain on the card and bolted to the door until tomorrow to keep any post-cure shrinking under control. Then I'll pull the mold, pull the card, and add more layers to the mold on the card on the bench. Upsidedown glassing is not fun.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

please post a bunch of pics. I need to learn how to do all this stuff


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

What do you want to see? hah


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I am a complete fiberglass rookie. Any little bit will help.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

(no-pics, yet)
array is out and roughly trimmed. Visibility lost is just a hair over the front of the hood from where I sit. Not too bad at all








Doors were covered in three more layers of chop and are now curing. Not too happy with today's progress. I skipped school today and didn't get started until almost five. Disturbing dreams last night put me in a bad mood. I'll grab a pic of the doors once it's good to take the molds off. Will be a bit - have to babysit them with the space heaters.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

sweet. I am going to start my door panels tomorrow.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

cool cool. What are the plans? 10's ?
In all seriousness, if I could find a RHD left front door card, I would totally be rocking 10s or 12s in the doors.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

you are fukkin nuts!!!!!
My car is an 85 jetta...I cant be doin that crazy stuff!!!!


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

as promised


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Cant wait to see what you are going with those!


----------



## braap (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Ok, i have built many full custom installs with fiberglass but am totally confused as to what the hell a "door card" is? 
Is this some DIY term used among your group?


----------



## dr.chop (Apr 8, 2009)

door panel


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, a door card is the plastic panel on the cabin side of the door.


----------



## braap (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (dr.chop)*

Ohhh the (British English) term, thanks


_Modified by braap at 9:22 AM 11-11-2009_


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (braap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *braap* »_Ohhh the (British English) term, thanks

_Modified by braap at 9:22 AM 11-11-2009_

Yep...bloody wankers....LOL


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: 'nother little teaser (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

any updates pat?


----------



## LovePirate (Mar 19, 2008)

Ew


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (LovePirate)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LovePirate* »_Ew

Why?


----------



## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

Olds aurora harlequin (at least i think its an Aurora it might be a taurus) 








Prove me wrong!!! 




_Modified by Undicided at 5:03 PM 11-30-2009_


----------



## dr.chop (Apr 8, 2009)

ouch!!


----------



## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: (dr.chop)*


_Quote, originally posted by *burton727* »_hounestly, this looks like a big hack job imo http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


_Quote, originally posted by *dr.chop* »_ouch!!

Well... I asked him to prove me wrong. 
If he does, i appologise for being blunt....








if he doesnt...he helped give would-be hotrodders/dubbers the wrong idea of how sh*ts to be done! 
_Quote, originally posted by *KellerMKIV GLI* »_I wish I had enough skill to do a "hack" job like that.








 http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif











_Modified by Undicided at 3:10 PM 11-30-2009_


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (Undicided)*

He has barely done anything.
Its all in raw form and you are talkin **** already.
Do you even know what SQ is???
Gtfo


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Undicided)*

Undecided, I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry because you have absolutely no understanding of acoustics. 
From top to bottom.
They are OEM raw drivers. They could be used for computer speakers or they could be used for conference phones. Ultimately it doesn't really matter because the application of a speaker is only limited by what you can do with it. If you understood the principles of an array, or how a speaker actually works, you'd understand that with multiple drivers, displacement per speaker is lowered for same total output. At lower displacements, all speakers tend to sound similar.
The differences between my car and the post-it note one are unlimited. Perhaps I'm thinking too literally though.







Maybe it's what you are in, but who am I to judge.
Next, the car belongs to nobody buy myself. It was a nice attempt to be an *******, but you ultimately failed. The car is in my name, soley financed by myself and insured by myself. As you can see, nothing has been crazy-glued anywhere. Installation is straight forward and correct.
Replacing stock speakers is all swell and dandy unless you actually care about audio. If you have any interest in staging, dynamics, or tonality, that's not the way to go. By the way, all parts have replacements and with the exception of the floor, the car could return to stock whenever I wish. Even the floor I could just weld a patch over and return it to stock. Mounting points for the drivers side dead pedal have been retained.
And please, rear speakers on the parcel shelf is a total waste , especially if you are putting enclosures on them. Anyone with common sense would understand that, but perhaps you failed out of high-school physics.
Again, if you understood how anything really works, you'd know those molded kick panels are garbage too.
Finally, that last picture you posted wouldn't be an Iasca car. In fact, many of the things the iasca car's installers are completely retarded. If you had any understanding of acoustics you would agree, but sadly, you do not.
Here are some search topics for you. Spend a while reading them, and then (if you ever) come back and use some science in your next retort. Otherwise, you've done nothing more than to prove yourself an incompetent moron.
Ultimately it comes down to this:
Criticism is good, both positive and negative, and I encourage it. However, negative criticism should be both tactful and reinforced with some kind of evidence. You, however, are just a clown and honestly should just **** off.
Search topics:
wave guide
line array
dynamics
polar response
power response
active crossovers
direct vs reflected sound
diffraction
comb filtering
and how about, how our hearing mechanisms work










_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 1:37 PM 11-30-2009_


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (Undicided)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Undicided* »_
If he does, i appologise for being blunt....








if he doesnt...he helped give would-be hotrodders/dubbers the wrong idea of how sh*ts to be done! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif








_Modified by Undicided at 8:46 AM 11-30-2009_

There's a difference between being blunt and being a moron. Perhaps not if you cannot tell the difference








 Speaking of giving would-be hot-rodders/dubbers the wrong idea looks like you tried ruining that poor mk2. Sucks you got laid off, should have given you plenty of time to thinking of how stupid an idea it is putting a v8 in a mk2 jetta. If it's for a straight line drag car, maybe, but otherwise handling would be out the window and weight distribution would be even more screwed up. Probably didn't think of that 'cause I'm sure you're the kind of person who thinks if you can't put a v8 it in, it doesn't belong on the road.
If it's for the unique factor, well then I guess that makes you a hypocrite











_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 1:04 PM 11-30-2009_


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Woops struck a nerve.....


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_
The car is in my name, soley financed by myself and insured by myself. 


You financed it..... you still dont own it.....thats not good dude.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

You common sense fails you. It would only be a problem if the loan is defaulted on and the car is to be repossessed, and even then the only amount owed would be the difference between the cars auction price and remainder of the loan.
quick trim of the door panels.
















Time to go to Walmart to get some anti- troll spray. Hopefully they carry the canuck version








I'll be waiting with baited breath for any kind of argument against what's being done from a scientific standpoint.


_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 3:36 PM 11-30-2009_


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I see where your goiong with the glass on the door cards*, sorry for being a *****, i looked through your pics and you had me until the driver array on the front dash.
_ *The term door card, also came from the fact that the interior panels on a lot of cars were literally cardboard, like MK1's. Basiacally all the interior door panels from cars that werent molded (like mk4s) were true door cards. Its still and easy way of explaing what part od the door your talking about. _ 
In addition to my apology, how the hell do you know what i know? You have no clue what my backgound is and my experience. 
But your 21 so i understand why you think you know everything, my bro-in law is the same way but he's a tad more clueless than your avg 21 yr old. He has a Dub too, MK3 1.9pre TDI. 
I thought you may have been a bit older, and my "dont fu*k up your moms car" spiel was addressed to.... well dudes that are still driving their moms car, who think they should install crazy S**T
My critisism comes from a much more educated place than you think.
Ps your common sense fails you! Dont F*** a car up that the bank still owns, thats definitely a slightly post- teenager thing to do.
You should have bought a project car, if you had somewhere to store it.

_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_You common sense fails you. It would only be a problem if the loan is defaulted on and the car is to be repossessed, and even then the only amount owed would be the difference between the cars auction price and remainder of the loan. 


In the end, i guess ive ben hard on you, i commend you for a fabricating stuff for yourself and using your brain to figure s**t out, not alot of people at any age do anything of the sort. 
As for the MK2, i got rid of the 305 it was only intended for the initial build, an ls1 (alum block) was in the plans. Regardless, i wont be converting the Jetta to RWD ever. You werent entirely right on the handling aspect of my project, i planned on deleting the front clip completely, to make way for a full frame, tied into a full cage, therefore allowing me to put the front wheels anywhere i choose. If the front crank seal of the engine was in-line with the front spindle centerline, it would make for excellent weight distribution, not like a vette but , not unlike a lot of sports sedans (M3-V8, G8-V8, C63AMG) between 55/45 & 52/48.
I'm going to be stripping the mk2 shell to nothing and im going to rotisserie it, the bad strut towers arent displaced yet, so i think i can save em, when the body is restored, im gonna look for a MK3 GTi VR6 donor car (lots for $500 in Toronto have bad bodys from the salt)
Good luck with the rest of the build, ill check it out periodically.

_Modified by Undicided at 5:55 PM 11-30-2009_ 


_Modified by Undicided at 6:04 PM 11-30-2009_


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Undicided)*

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt by removing everything exept the Aurora Harlequin, thats just awsome.








Just do a a good job
I owe you a Guiness

















_Modified by Undicided at 5:12 PM 11-30-2009_


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Undicided)*

Guinness acquired







. and I do like the post-it car
I understand concerns with the array. At this point it's completely theoretical. I was discussing the idea two years ago with nonmenber Durwood. He was able to test it out before I did due to time/materials/speakers. He is using a 5-driver per channel array wired in a bessel configuration. I decided to stick to the horizontal line-array idea. The bessel array uses a line-oriented configuration of drivers but has a spherical dispersion pattern. He's using ambiophonics for the front array and ambiosonics for the rear fill. Different goals. hopefully he doesn't mind me stealing his picture.
1st attempt, then bessel
















I don't know everything and I'll be the first to admit it. 
But I can safely base what you know off of the "the right way to do it is replace the stock speakers, add an amp and a sub" comment that you deleted. Nobody with an acoustical background would say such a thing.
And again, if the loan isn't defaulted on, I don't see a problem with the modification of a financed vehicle. It's not leased - not going to be "returned". Anyway, fact of the matter is, the mk4 series is better set up for audio than the other generations. 
I'd love to have a rotisserie. Would make head-liner amp racks much easier to do, as well as fixing frame rails.


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Cool, this is now a civil conversation. 
As for the "add speakers etc, for the avg. Dubber, this is all they should attempt without damaging late modell MK4 or 5 which is relatively more expensive to repair than a mk1-3, 
Im not say you can get a crazy SQL just by doing so, but for the most part a lot of enthusiast like the look of an off the wall install, rather than how good it sounds. 
Plus.....a VW is not a concert hall so......all i personally want is total freq, response from 22kHz to 40kHz, acoutically.. i dont really care too much. 
Ive actually talked with a local audiophile who does cars (Audible Difference, Brantford ON) and he said that on one occasion, a set of boston 5.25 comps and a boston 10" sub in a passive radiator box blew his mind. I think it was a fluke, cuz it was intalled in a Topaz. And this audiophile dude hates music, he is in love with acoustics and whatnot, but if hes not listening to an opera recoriding utilizing a $16,000 Telefunken mic, hes cranky. 
Personally, i like a sleeper look, stock looking stereo with plenty of RMS power to thump out the death metal (what i like). So for me, in my MK4 Jetta, i plan on replacing the 6.75's and tweets and fiberglassing a single 10" enclosure 

Like this guys from Motivemag http://forums.motivemag.com/zerothread?id=4395053

































I would, howver like to fab a pair of door pods to take a 3.5 coax, to replace the tweets mounted on the other side of the side mirrors. We'll have to see...i really dont want to modify the dash or door cards. 
I cant put a big sub install in the trunk because i need it for my Guitar rig. (1 4x12 cab, 2 guitars and an amp head)



_Modified by Undicided at 11:44 PM 11-30-2009_


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## braap (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

[QUOTEAgain, if you understood how anything really works, you'd know those molded kick panels are garbage too.

_Modified by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks at 1:37 PM 11-30-2009_[/QUOTE]
What makes you so sure those "molded" kick panels are garbage without seing all of its contsuction?
Am I overlooking something?


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: (braap)*

NO MORE FIGHTS, we all just need to get drunk and make fun of Hondas and fart tips,
unless yall are into fart tips too........














http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Molded kicks better than some poor bastard trying to make some, just to get more speakers intalled. and they look semi-OEM-ish...
And cut out the condesending bullsh*t


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Undicided)*

So you only want the system to reproduce frequencies not heard but sensed, 22,000hz to 40,000hz? heh I'll take 'em in the following order:
1) dynamics
2) tonality
3) staging
4) imaging

I think one thing everyone can agree on is that no car is a concert hall. Spacial differences makes similar reproduction absolutely impossible. Not that certain techniques can't enhance the response. 
To be honest, if this dash array works out as I predict, then the next step is actually more extreme. If the dash is cut away, then the speakers could be mounted to the rain-tray. The dash will have to be shaped down above the defrosters, but loading should be very similar to this. The only real problem is exposure to moisture affecting the untreated paper cones and voice coils.
Have you considered four 7" drivers to use for subbass and then doing the coax and tweeters in the pillars? Four 7" woofers should provide decent low end for a subless setup without door-card modification. Or even some shallow 10's like I did here.
braap,
the problem with those pre-molded q-form kick panels are (in no particular order):
1) tweeter positions
-low encourages diffraction
-aimed in no particular manner - random frequency response and beaming
2) material - thin plastic encourages resonances. baffles should be as stout as possible
3) design - mids are open-backed.
- Depending on where a speaker is vented this could work well but the q-forms don't vent in any usable manner and simply allows interference between front and back waves causing nulls in response
While they are convenient, they aren't a solution for anyone looking for good sound.
dead pedals are for suckers. Never have I ever used it.


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## braap (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pat @ Pitt Soundworks* »_
braap,
the problem with those pre-molded q-form kick panels are (in no particular order):
1) tweeter positions
-low encourages diffraction
-aimed in no particular manner - random frequency response and beaming
2) material - thin plastic encourages resonances. baffles should be as stout as possible
3) design - mids are open-backed.
- Depending on where a speaker is vented this could work well but the q-forms don't vent in any usable manner and simply allows interference between front and back waves causing nulls in response
While they are convenient, they aren't a solution for anyone looking for good sound.
dead pedals are for suckers. Never have I ever used it.

Tweeter position is different with every tweeter. The qform may be right on for some and off for others. 
A fellow competitor & freind Mike Galigan won an IASCA world championship with qforms, his car sounded freaking amazing. 
The end to all end for tweeter placement is to spend time finding the best placement for the tweeter being used by sound testing every possible location and direction posssible until you find what sounds best then start building.
Im sure most on here already know this though.


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Dead pedals are great for pushing your ass into the seat when your driving like a maniac, thats actually what theyre there for, as per the racing community... im not even making that up....
woops did i say, 40khz woops 
i meant 40hz-22khz
and ya ive looked at the 6.75 midbass drivers, im liking that route.
i was thinking of useing some 3way crossovers, for the front at least, an id run the lows into the 6.75's the mids into the 3.5's and the highs into pillar tweets.
the rear i would use some midbass and the tweets that are already there. and use a 75-100wrms/ch 4channel amp
i think the front soundstage would't be too bad, i dont really need subs, youre right, i was actually surprised how well the stock system pounded, of course its decent until you turn it up and hit poweramp distortion,
I hate transistor amps but when your up into the 75wrms @ 4ohm/ch range, its plenty loud. head units are only putting out 7-15 wrms, some do more. 
For exaple guitar amps with a solid state power section of 100wrms @8 ohms, starts to break up at 100dB my Peavey 6505+ (which is a 100wrms vacuum tube power stays clear up to 120+dB some tube heads will do 127dB and stay pretty clear.
It has a lot to do with solid state amps of any kind, running directly from the output of the power transistors, if theyre too small the heat gets to them, so in that respect the bigger the WRMS output the better.
If you ever have an amp apart youll see one or two bundles of copper wire, thjose are the torroidal input voltage transformers. Then, somewhere else youl find a large heat sink made of extruded alum with a number of transistors screwed and glued to it. Those transistors are the last stage to the speaker output. The output transistor type will also dictate whether you can go down to 4ohms or all the way to 1ohm some are .5 ohm stable. 
The smaller wattage amps will fry if the speaker load is too low. 
I thought these were cool








theyre tube amps
i dont think id buy em, but theyd perform pretty well, tubes dont like vibration.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

wow, I have missed all the fun in here.....LOL
how are you doing pat?


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (LovePirate)*

you around pat???


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, I have the front speakers fitted to the dash pod, but I still have to work on the pods a little more. Not much time spent on the project. Finished paying off the last of my debt - that was my main focus. Now that I'm no longer in the red I can finish this bish up.


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## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

thats great news!!


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## KellerMKIV GLI (Aug 28, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Just wondering what was going on with your "little" project. Haven't seen any updates in awhile.


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## Undicided (Apr 8, 2008)

you done yet pat????
i got rid of the mk2s, scrapped the 4dr and sold the 87 coupe....


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

No news is good news, right?

Scrapping the 8's for what should have been done in the first place. 10s.


































New amp rack. Weight with the amps is equal to the weight of the old rack without amps. It's being painted now.









I'll have the dash pods finished this week as well.


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