# 8v crossflow head swap



## dirty_dubs (Jul 12, 2007)

is it worth it to do the crossflow head swap on the 1.8 bottom end i have a ported and polished head with a valve job 268 cam and a brospeed header laying around and was thinking about installing it just want to get some details about the swap what exactly is needed as far as maf,injectors, and throttle body. the car is a 91 jetta with digi. just dont wanna take apart the mk2 if it does not make a difference thanks


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (dirty_dubs)*

You need to dump the Digi and megasquirt it.


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## dirty_dubs (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*

not really in the budget right now thanks though


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*

i have a x-flow 1.8 in a '85 jetta with a p+p and 272 tt cam with ms. it runs sweet and pulls strong all the way to 7krpm. i think its a great swap and would do it again in a heartbeat. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dirty_dubs (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (epjetta)*

without ms am i gonna get any power gains


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## UltimateJim (Nov 10, 2008)

Barely unless you toss in a new cam to go along with it.


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## dirty_dubs (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (UltimateJim)*

got a 268 to throw in it


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## e24ohm (Jul 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*

What is "megasquirt"?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (e24ohm)*

Megasquirt is a stand alone fuel injection computer. It's very flexible, reasonably priced and works awesomely on VW's. Check out the carbs,itbs and sem forum and this link: http://www.megamanual.com/index.html


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## e24ohm (Jul 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*

Prof315,
I am a little confused what i am looking at. Is this product only for turbo engines, or will normal non-turbo motors benefit form it as well? What are the benefits of this? Please for give me, I am new to fuel injection, i am coming from the dual or quad Weber world.


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## lost conversations (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (e24ohm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *e24ohm* »_Prof315,
I am a little confused what i am looking at. Is this product only for turbo engines, or will normal non-turbo motors benefit form it as well? What are the benefits of this? Please for give me, I am new to fuel injection, i am coming from the dual or quad Weber world.

Did you even read the link he posted?

_Quote »_A. The MegaSquirt® family of EFI controllers (including MS-I™, MS-II™, MicroSquirt™, and the MS-II Sequencer™) are intended as educational projects for those who want to learn about electronic fuel injection. They are experimental Do-It-Yourself programmable electronic fuel injection controllers that you build yourself. MegaSquirt® controllers will work on virtually any liquid fueled spark-ignition engine, naturally aspirated or boosted (up to 21 psi boost with the standard MAP sensor) as long as they are not 'pollution controlled'. Note that any MegaSquirt® EFI controller is the controller only, you will have to gather the remaining fuel system parts yourself (from 1 to 16 injectors, sensors, fuel rails, fuel pump, etc.).


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (dirty_dubs)*

What's your reasoning for putting the crossflow head on the 1.8L block?
The crossflow head only has two advantages over the counterflow head. The intake ports and manifold aren't located over the hot exhaust side, and the crossflow comes with 7mm stem valves stock.
Other than those two points, the crossflow head has no superiority over a counterflow head. It's my opinion (and others agree) that the counterflow has better ports, and when worked, has more naturally aspirated potential than a crossflow head.
If you are planning to go turbo in the future, than the crossflow will make more sense, since the layout gives a lot of room on the backside.
In regards to your questions:
I'm pretty sure that the front oil return galley on the head needs to be modified to line up properly with the block.
Are you planning to stick with Digifant injection? If-so, you're going to have to use the crossflow intake manifold, and fuel rail. You'll have to modify the throttle body in some way to work with the Digifant throttle switches. Some wires would have to be lengthened, and you'll need to get creative with some of the sensors and idle stabilizer tubing...
You'll also have to mix and match hoses. One good thing is that the digifant coolant temp sensors should clip right into the crossflow coolant outlet on the side of the head.
Here's my $0.02:
I don't think it's worth all the effort to swap a crossflow head onto a 1.8L block. There is a lot of modification that has to be done, with little to no gain in performance.
If you're going to do all that work, you might-as-well put in the whole 2.0L block, which will make a few things easier.


_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 10:46 PM 7-6-2009_


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (e24ohm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *e24ohm* »_Prof315,
I am a little confused what i am looking at. Is this product only for turbo engines, or will normal non-turbo motors benefit form it as well? What are the benefits of this? Please for give me, I am new to fuel injection, i am coming from the dual or quad Weber world.

Any motor can benefit from being fuel injected. We squirted both of the GT Lite Sciroccos that we race (they had DCOEs on them) and saw wider torque curves (like 700-800 rpms) and almost 33% better fuel economy (huge when spending $9 a gallon on race gas) while maintaining the same horsepower #s. Also if you are'nt up to building the Megasquirt yourself several companies sell ready to install MS boxes. I like DIYAutotune but there are others.


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## e24ohm (Jul 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*

Hey thanks...I read the link, just didn't know what i was looking at, with all the options down the left side of the screen. I didn't see anything for VW.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (e24ohm)*

Megasquirt is not vehicle specific. It can be built or adapted to just about anything When we do customer installs I purchase a prebuilt setup from DIYAutotune.com with the specific options/setup I need for the application. But an MS will do damned near anything and is easy on a 4 cylinder N/A motor.


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## dirty_dubs (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*

we ms make power by itself without mods?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (dirty_dubs)*

We have found that on MK3 ABA cars an MS properly tuned can give you 5 to 8% more power over a stock ecu. It would probably be more on a digi motor because digi is such a primitive setup. And as I said, if you start modding the engine you just retune the MS to take full advantage of the mods.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prof315* »_We have found that on MK3 ABA cars an MS properly tuned can give you 5 to 8% more power over a stock ecu. It would probably be more on a digi motor because digi is such a primitive setup. And as I said, if you start modding the engine you just retune the MS to take full advantage of the mods.

I've been contemplating MS for a while now. I'm sure the OP would like to ask this as well:
For someone coming from being familiar with CIS, and having mild experience with Digifant; How intensive and overwhelming is it to go through the tuning process with Megasquirt?
Personally, I know that I wouldn't have a problem wiring the sensors, and swapping the mechanical parts. Where I get lost quickly is the programming aspect. All the terminology like the Pulse Width, and measurements in milliseconds, etc. really is over my head, and seems like it will be a big obstacle in getting the motor to run correctly...
Is there a manual available which has a very simple explanation of all the features and functions of MS? I have no problem doing research and reading, but I often get thrown off by the several versions of MS available, and the add-ons for each one...


_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 7:50 AM 7-9-2009_


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_
I've been contemplating MS for a while now. I'm sure the OP would like to ask this as well:
For someone coming from being familiar with CIS, and having mild experience with Digifant; How intensive and overwhelming is it to go through the tuning process with Megasquirt?
Personally, I know that I wouldn't have a problem wiring the sensors, and swapping the mechanical parts. Where I get lost quickly is the programming aspect. All the terminology like the Pulse Width, and measurements in milliseconds, etc. really is over my head, and seems like it will be a big obstacle in getting the motor to run correctly...
Is there a manual available which has a very simple explanation of all the features and functions of MS? I have no problem doing research and reading, but I often get thrown off by the several versions of MS available, and the add-ons for each one...

_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 7:50 AM 7-9-2009_

http://www.megamanual.com


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## dirty_dubs (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Prof315)*

thread has been really useful!!!


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## sandrunner (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Jettaboy1884)*

To jump in on the MS bit of this thread...
CIS long timer here as well, but now I've got MS on both my wife's and my sciroccos and we love it. I never thought CIS was a bad system (easily tune-able &simple to troubleshoot), but I converted over due to the rising cost of original CIS parts and more accurate tuning possibilities. 
For tuning, I found that if I took my time and followed the directions, the initial start went pretty quickly with the car drivable within 1 hour, good as it was in 1.5 hrs, good as new in 2hrs, and better than I ever thought possible in 3-8 hrs. It took a few cold start mornings of messing about with the different enrichments, but now both start right up after 2 engine rotations, run more smoothly than ever, and get better mileage (78 rocco w/frankenstein 2.0 went from 33 to 37hwy, 86 rocco JH w/exhaust, cam, .71 5th went from 38 to 42hwy) 
It can seem overwhelming at first, but pretty simple once you get the hang of it. After I swapped my head and cam over(Stock JH G-grind -->P&P, 286), it took about 5 minutes to re-tune the idle and the driving portion was done after 2 - 20min datalogs. 
My biggest problems came from trying to use other folks maps instead of starting from scratch and figuring out how exactly I wanted everything routed and mounted (think long term reliability)
I'd think most anyone with fair knowledge of tuning in general should be able to get the system to work pretty quickly.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (dirty_dubs)*

It will be fun I have mine on a 2l 9a bottom end


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## 81.scirocco.S (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (dirty_dubs)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4409227
i saw this on the scirocco forum he explains a lot and does it step by step


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## e24ohm (Jul 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_What's your reasoning for putting the crossflow head on the 1.8L block?
The crossflow head only has two advantages over the counterflow head. The intake ports and manifold aren't located over the hot exhaust side, and the crossflow comes with 7mm stem valves stock.
Other than those two points, the crossflow head has no superiority over a counterflow head. It's my opinion (and others agree) that the counterflow has better ports, and when worked, has more naturally aspirated potential than a crossflow head.
If you are planning to go turbo in the future, than the crossflow will make more sense, since the layout gives a lot of room on the backside.
In regards to your questions:
I'm pretty sure that the front oil return galley on the head needs to be modified to line up properly with the block.
Are you planning to stick with Digifant injection? If-so, you're going to have to use the crossflow intake manifold, and fuel rail. You'll have to modify the throttle body in some way to work with the Digifant throttle switches. Some wires would have to be lengthened, and you'll need to get creative with some of the sensors and idle stabilizer tubing...
You'll also have to mix and match hoses. One good thing is that the digifant coolant temp sensors should clip right into the crossflow coolant outlet on the side of the head.
Here's my $0.02:
I don't think it's worth all the effort to swap a crossflow head onto a 1.8L block. There is a lot of modification that has to be done, with little to no gain in performance.
If you're going to do all that work, you might-as-well put in the whole 2.0L block, which will make a few things easier.

_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 10:46 PM 7-6-2009_

my main reason or early thinking was the following. I have a 95 Jetta, and I want to do some performance mods; however, I have a early 1.8 block out of a 1986 jetta, and I wanted to know which block and setup i should use. I wanted to run a high lift, mechanical cam and webers, but I was not sure if i should keep the ABA motor with the crossflow heads, or put the 1.8L heads on the ABA block, or just install the 1.8L block.
That brings me to my next question. Has any seen this setup? Is there enough room for webers in a MK3 if i use the 1.8L heads? Is there enough room for webers if i use the ABA/cross-flow heads?
I thought i could get away with Carbs on a 95 MK3, since they would have to put it on the dyno anyway for emission testing.


_Modified by e24ohm at 8:19 AM 7-23-2009_


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## e24ohm (Jul 5, 2009)

*Re: 8v crossflow head swap (eurotrashrabbit)*

HOw is the throttle response on those ITBs? Is it better then carbs or even the standard system? I have noticed as my system gets older, and even though i have done numerous tuneups ...plugs, wires, rotor, etc...The throttle response on my stock system has somewhat of a lag. Not sure what would cause that.
Ok i have done some research, and looked under the ITB/carb; however, not knowing what i am truly looking for....If I use this product called megasquirt, and ITBs...when i take my car for emission do i still have ODB-II and will they just be able to hook it up to the jack inside the car? Or will they have to use the dyno? Would I even have to tell them that I am runnig somethign different from stock mapping?


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