# CIS-E no spark / start. Experts chime in please



## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Hello all, 

The car is an 85' GTI engine code HT. 

It has always taken a few seconds of cranking to start for the last 3 or 4 years, but it always fired. A few weeks ago it died while driving. Ran rough for a few seconds then died. I tired to start it again and it ran for as second then died. Hasn't started since. 

I have done some trouble shooting an still cannot figure out why it won't start. 

New parts: 
Plugs 
Wires 
Distributor cap and rotor 

The coil is providing 12V to the distributor but I am getting no spark. The ICM has power, I tested that by connecting the two terminals as per the Bentley instructions. The Hall sensor also is seeing power. 

I have yet to do all of the other tests in the Bently just because my test light isn't the best and need to go buy an LED one. 

The plugs and cylinders are wet with fuel so I believe I'm OK there. 

Any obvious things that I should be checking? I'm just a little lost here. Any help is appreciated.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

You've verified that you still have +12v at the coil's + terminal _while cranking_, right?  
(it's not unheard of for an ignition switch to fail in such a way that Terminal 15 (ignition run power) is OK when in Run, but drops out when turned to Start.) 

That OK? Quick n dirty check of the ignition electronics: 
Remove coil wire from distributor cap, and attach spark tester. (Don't have one? Line up distributor rotor to any tower, and use that cylinder's wire as your tester.) 
Disconnect hall sensor. Key ON. Use a jumper wire to momentarily ground the center terminal on the hall sensor connector - it should make spark. 
OK? Troubleshoot hall sensor & wiring. Not OK? Troubleshoot that wire, knock control, ignition module, and associated wiring. 
(this is lifted (in modified form) from the Bentley, section 7, page 11)


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Okay. Not totally understanding what you were saying. I think you might have been giving me a few different procedures, I just couldn't tell where one started or stopped. 


I put my voltmeter on the wire coming from the coil, 12V ignition on. Cranked it over and saw ~10V or so. That's just because I have cranked it over a ton in the past few weeks and haven't recharged it. Going to get a charger on there... 

Next took the coil wire off the distributor, removed hall sensor. Took a jumper and stuck it in the middle spot on the hall sensor connector. When that wire was grounded, there was no spark but the fuel pump would prime again. This would happen every time I did it no matter how many times. This was with nothing on the center of the distributor, that's where you directions confused me a bit. 

I had a hand for a moment today and confirmed there is no spark, just by grounding a plug. Like I said before I was pretty sure but now I am certain.... 

I bought a spark plug light tester thing but it doesn't fit my plug style/wire style :banghead: 

I appreciate the spoon feeding, thanks again.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

The reason that I recommended getting a spark tester is because it's a fairly inexpensive, easy-to-use, and _safe way of checking for spark. Getting tingly from holding a spark plug wire = not fun.  

But, yeah - that's definitely zero spark going on. (BTW: in the future, don't hold the middle wire to the hall sensor to ground - you just need to momentarily ground it (in other words, just tap it to ground.) 

From your description of what's going on: 
hall sensor wiring seems OK (because the knock control is turning the fuel pumps on when you ground the hall sensor's wire (this simulates "engine is turning.")) 
Therefore, fault lies in ignition module, or its wiring; or, knock control has failed (this would be a very remote possibility.) 

Checking the wiring at the ignition module would be a good thing to do (it's only 4 wires.) 
You can take the ignition module to most auto parts stores and have it tested. 
The Bentley also has a procedure for checking it. 
But, most likely, this is your failed part._


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

cuppie said:


> The reason that I recommended getting a spark tester is because it's a fairly inexpensive, easy-to-use, and _safe way of checking for spark. Getting tingly from holding a spark plug wire = not fun.
> 
> But, yeah - that's definitely zero spark going on. (BTW: in the future, don't hold the middle wire to the hall sensor to ground - you just need to momentarily ground it (in other words, just tap it to ground.)
> 
> ...


_


Thank you very much! I have had the ICM replaced before because it was faulty. They could have replaced it with a non-genuine part or it may be getting damaged if I have a leak or something in the rain tray. 

Again than you much for your help. :beer:_


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Clearly you understood that this was not CIS-E from the start but I just realized. 

I'm going through the Bently more carefully again, as I have time tonight.

I swapped in another ICM from a MK1 8V and still no luck in starting. I ordered a new one today just to be sure. 

If the vacuum line going from the knock box to the intake tract was open ended what type of problems would that cause? Because I just found that....

Also found a few other wires that were either frayed or disconnect completely. Unfortunately most of those were just to aftermarket gauges that are no longer.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

lorge1989 said:


> Clearly you understood that this was not CIS-E from the start but I just realized.


 Que? 
If at any point I might have been thinking that it _wasn't_ CIS-E (I wasn't, really), you just confirmed that it is.
More precisely, CIS-E3 (KE-Jetronic w/ knock control.) (which I was pretty damned sure you were dealing with, anyways.) What did you think it was?  


The vacuum hose to the knock box shouldn't affect it (not in this sense.) Intake leak? Yep (affects fueling.) Kill spark? Nope. It'll affect the spark map - after it starts; it'll set a fault in the knock box; but, it won't kill function outright.

So, recapping:
No spark. Grounding pin 2 at the hall sensor also fails to produce spark. Swapping in a known-good (Yes?) ignition module doesn't fix it.

Assuming that you've maintained methodology (e.g. when it failed to start, you repeated the "ground the wire" test?), then... check thy wiring.
Power & ground at knock box & ignition module; power at the coil, coil negative wire; lines from knock box to hall sensor; trigger wire (knock box to ignition module.)
These are needed for it to make spark (everything else just affects driveability.)


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

cuppie said:


> Que?
> If at any point I might have been thinking that it _wasn't_ CIS-E (I wasn't, really), you just confirmed that it is.
> More precisely, CIS-E3 (KE-Jetronic w/ knock control.) (which I was pretty damned sure you were dealing with, anyways.) What did you think it was?



I guess I got caught up in the lingo in the Bentley. After that last post I was thinking that it was not considered CIS-E, I was caught up on TCI-h or however the Bentley phrases it.  Anyways...



cuppie said:


> The vacuum hose to the knock box shouldn't affect it (not in this sense.) Intake leak? Yep (affects fueling.) Kill spark? Nope. It'll affect the spark map - after it starts; it'll set a fault in the knock box; but, it won't kill function outright.


As I thought. I found a few other vacuum leaks in my testing and fixed those as well.




cuppie said:


> So, recapping:
> No spark. Grounding pin 2 at the hall sensor also fails to produce spark. Swapping in a known-good (Yes?) ignition module doesn't fix it.


Correct no spark. Grounding pin 2 of hall sensor makes the fuel pump kick on, but no visible arc.

I have tried a total of 3 ignition modules now, the latest being brand new and still no luck.



cuppie said:


> Assuming that you've maintained methodology (e.g. when it failed to start, you repeated the "ground the wire" test?), then... check thy wiring.
> Power & ground at knock box & ignition module; power at the coil, coil negative wire; lines from knock box to hall sensor; trigger wire (knock box to ignition module.)
> These are needed for it to make spark (everything else just affects driveability.)


I will have to really start unwrapping everything to see what is happening. I just find it hard to believe a wire would break or short just out of no where. 


Seems like I might have been giving fairly in accurate information before. When cranking I am only seeing 8V or so coming from the coil. When the key is on I see about 11-12V. When cranking should I be able to attach a plug to the wire coming from the coil and see spark (if there is power of course)?

I realize that 12V is not going to be able to arc across an air gap that big, and was under the impression that the voltage going to the plug was actually in the thousands, although very little current. So basically the two wires going to the coil are what I think I need to be investigating first because they are not providing the signal to the coil needed. Right? That is basically what I am doing by following you directions right above this post I believe.

So now to just lay out what I have replaced, just to be perfectly clear.



ICM
Ignition switch
Coil
Plugs, wires, cap and rotor


So basically that leaves either the knock system or some the intermediate wires at fault? Going to start fresh tomorrow and see what I can find. This is so frustrating.

And here are some pictures, I don't really know why just to liven things up I guess, or maybe I'm just doing something very stupid. 



















I was grounding the coil wire in that pic in attempt to follow the Bentley, aka jumping the starter with an LED tapped into the center wire on the Hall Sensor while plugged in. If lit up then the Hall sensor would be functioning as it should. But I don't think I was able to successfully tap into that wire/ or its not working. But it sounds like you gave me an alternate version of that same test previously.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

You'd be surprised on the wiring. The car's 28 years old now - broken wiring happens.  
(This is why, say, the cold-start valve on my Scirocco doesn't work. Both of its wires (starter>CSV, and CSV>TTS, are basically open. Need to run new ones...) 
Don't unwrap anything yet (past pulling back the connector boots.) Figuring out where the problem lies doesn't require visual inspection of the wiring. A DVOM will find it, I promise.  

One problem I think I see in those pics:
your test coil NEEDS to be grounded! It won't work just hanging in the air.  

But, yeah - start going thru the wiring - methodically, and with a fine-tooth comb. 
Pull the boots back. Verify proper voltage across the power & ground terminals at the knock box and ignition module (with them plugged in! Open-circuit voltage measurements aren't accurate (unless you measure 0, of course.) 

I will throw out one other quick check you can do of the ign. module & coil wiring:
grab a test lead, and momentarily ground pin *6* at the module (this is the trigger line.) Spark yes/no? If yes, concentrate on the knock box & its wiring (including the trigger line, and hall wiring.) If no, concentrate on ICM and coil wiring. 


BTW:
once you're back up and running, replace that oil cooler o-ring, before it fails catastrophically on you!


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks very much. 

Key on and off, grounding the 6th terminal on the ICM connector does not produce a spark. 

I have continuity between both wires going to the coil and the corresponding terminals on the ICM connector. And I have a good ground there as well.

Just giving you an update as I go, ha.

edit:

Started from beginning and I must have missed the whole coil test right from the get go. I have power there but it is not switching while the motor is being turned over. It just stays lit. Going to section 3.4....

Voltage and supply to ICM, good.

Voltage and supply to Hall Sender good, 11V between outer terminals. 

Hall Sender switching function was good. Light was flashing during cranking.

Checked ICM voltage to the coil, aka ~2V for 1 to 2 seconds should be seen when ignition is turned on. This was done with the voltmeter connected to 1 and 15 terminals of the coil. I saw no voltage at all.

According to the Bentley this points at the coil being faulty or the ICM, both of which I have changed. The ICM is NEW, the coil is not so I am going to bench test a coil per the Bentley's instructions, if good then I'll put it in and pray.

edit 2:

Swapped in new coil, still no 2V and not able to start.

Would this be a sign that my knockbox is faulty??

I don't know how to proceed at this point.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

This isn't pointed at a bad knock box - yet. The last checks I suggested you do were to check the ICM's ability to fire the coil - the knock box wouldn't be in play there.

Recheck voltages at the coil and ICM. Please.
Key ON. ~12v present at coil terminal 1 (+), measured to the battery negative clamp.
And, at the ICM (with it _plugged in_ - you'll need to pull the boot back from the connector), ~12v across pins 4 and 2.
Are these OK?


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Yes I just rechecked those and I see 12V in both situations.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

Crap, I just realized that I made a typo earlier. :facepalm:
Voltage at coil terminal _15_ (+), not [/I]1[/I], measured to battery negative. 

While you have the meter in there again...
Connect meter to coil terminal 1 (-) and battery negative.
Turn key ON, observe meter.
Repeat this check, but with meter (+) lead connected to ICM pin 1.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

cuppie said:


> Crap, I just realized that I made a typo earlier. :facepalm:
> Voltage at coil terminal _15_ (+), not [/I]1[/I], measured to battery negative.
> 
> While you have the meter in there again...
> ...


Terminal 15 to battery negative key on: 12V constant

Terminal 1 and battery negative, key on (did this last post) : 12V constant

Pin 1 ICM with ICM plugged in, to battery negative, key on : 12V constant


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

I know that you've replaced it, but...
All of those checks point to a defective ignition module - it isn't switching the coil to ground. Therefore, the coil never even charges. 
((shrugs)) 

Measuring voltage at coil terminal 1 (or, ICM pin 1) to ground should _never_ indicate +12v.
Either the coil primary circuit is dead-shorted (highly unlikely on an oil-filled can-type coil), or the primary switching circuit in the ICM is dead (open.) 


A question:
earlier, you posted a pic of a coil, connected, but hanging in space (and, I didn't see a ground wire on it.) 
Was the car switched ON in that condition at any time? If so, it could well have killed the ICM.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Yes it probably was switched on at some point, so it could have killed the ICM. Originally I swapped in a good ICM changing nothing else and still it would not start, thats what I'm not getting. 


I will source another ICM and change nothing else and see if that cures the problem. Thanks again for your help!


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Sourced an ICM from a friend. Swapped in, same result. Although this ICM was from a 16V.

Same friend swapped the ICM I was using into his well running 16 and it wanted to start but would sputter and barely fire. So it seems like the ICM was bad or its a different part number all together which also could still leave the ICM as a possible solution. Hmmmmm...


I don't think the coil is shorted though, because we tested it and it was good. Correct resistance across the terminals.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Swapped in another ICM from an 8v. Does not work.


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## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

Dude, that really sucks.  

_Something_ had to have been missed here.... 

Out of curiosity, what was the coil resistance (both primary and secondary?)


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

The primary voltage was a little high. Maybe 1 ohm, where as the range I believe is something like .5 to .75 ohms. The secondary voltage was right in the range the Bentley gives. I forget what it is off the top of my head.

Didn't have too much time to mess with it today. I'm thinking maybe the two wires going to the coil are shorted together? I really have no idea. I guess I'll start from the beginning tomorrow.

edit:

Checked the wires going to the coil. Doesn't look like they are shorted together or to ground.


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## Vr6mexico (Jan 2, 2012)

Had same issue on my 92 Gti 16v. No spark. I replaced dizzy and coil. And no spark. Went trough steps on Bentley. And believe it or not it was a loose cable inside connector to hall sender under dizzy. I took me 1 week to figure it out. An after wasted money on extra parts I didn't need it was an easy fix. Just ran new wire to connector. Could pull pin inside so bridged it and started right up. Go trough all the steps. At the end it's an easy fix.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

Knock box is toast. There's a bunch of grounds by the ignition coil. One of them is vitally important or will blow the knock box from what I remember.

No chance your friend's 16V is the early 1.8L? Try the knock box.


You said that the fuel pumps don't come on unless you ground the middle hall sender wire? 

This all sounds pretty familiar. I had an 85 HT too. Got it with the middle wire grounded and half the other wires completely cut.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Didn't see these responses before, but thanks! I sourced a knock box, that I believe is the correct part number. Swapped it in and no luck. Hopefully I didn't fry that one too. 

This project has kind of been put off to the side but I really would like to get it running again. I will post up what I gather, once again I appreciate the help!

edit: I believe he did have early stuff from the 16v, he said it was Jetronic management. I will post up the part number when I get home.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

I thought I would just update this thread. 

Sold the car to a friend with a complete ABA swap. In the process of swapping we found that a yellow wire in the harness, went to the O2 sensor, coil and something else was completely fried. I can only assume under load it was doing some funky stuff but while just testing with my multimeter not under load everything seems okay.

It sucks that we find it now, but it gives me some hope that it wasn't _just_ my incompetence preventing this thing from running but rather that and a weird issue hidden under tape and other wires.


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