# carbon build up



## euro inc (Sep 11, 2008)

customers mk5 gti had on going misfires that's been a mystery to the dealer so he brought us his car and we pulled the intake manifold and found lots of carbon build up on the intake valves.


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: carbon build up (euro inc)*

ouch
how many miles?


----------



## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: carbon build up (b0mb3r)*


_Quote, originally posted by *b0mb3r* »_ouch
how many miles?

12








DI <3 carbon


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: carbon build up (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

12k?
wow..............................................................


----------



## euro inc (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (Krieger)*

lol where did you get 12k from? this car has 70k miles on it


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: carbon build up (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
12








DI <3 carbon

thats where i got it from.
and 70k? im at 61,400...
what do ppl normally charge to clean them off? i need to get it done, but i need to know just how much im gonna be looking at.


----------



## chiuy (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: carbon build up (Krieger)*

My dealer charges 135 for the cleaning.


----------



## ZoomBy (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: carbon build up (chiuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chiuy* »_My dealer charges 135 for the cleaning.

which dealer is that? I havent asked mine yet but if they are planning to over charge me, id be willing to go to MA and have it done


----------



## VWRacer21 (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: carbon build up (chiuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chiuy* »_My dealer charges 135 for the cleaning.

I dont think for $135 they take the manifold off to clean it.


----------



## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: carbon build up (euro inc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euro inc* »_lol where did you get 12k from? this car has 70k miles on it

LOL i was being silly......i meant 12 miles not even 12K. I was poking fun at how these direct injection engines build carbon when they are turned off and in the garage HAHAHHAHAHAH. 
DI =


----------



## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: carbon build up (VWRacer21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWRacer21* »_
I dont think for $135 they take the manifold off to clean it.

Yeah thats 1 hour of labor charge at a dealership...............that has to be simply an induction service. For an induction service thats a good price, but would do little with the carbon depicted.


----------



## euro inc (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (chiuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chiuy* »_My dealer charges 135 for the cleaning.

yeah thats prob a can of injection cleaner and throttle body service.
intake manifold needs to be removed and good old fashioned hand cleaning for an hour or so to get this done. i would say dealer would quote 3-5hrs
car drives awesome now fyi. No more misfires much needed power free'd up


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (euro inc)*

Wow looks gross.
What brand/viscosity of oil did they use and what oil change interval?


----------



## GTIBOIL (Jan 24, 2007)

anything besides a catch can to prevent this from happening? im at 34k and no idea about the buildup


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: carbon build up (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Wow looks gross.
What brand/viscosity of oil did they use and what oil change interval?

+1 I am curious about this too.
I used castrol for the first 24k km, and i've switched to motul @ 24k, added a catch can as well.
EDIT: I recall reading and hearing from a couple ppl that driving more aggressively and keeping the revs high will help burn off the carbon. Does anyone have any knowledge of this?


_Modified by Malaco0219 at 9:47 PM 8-12-2009_


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_
EDIT: I recall reading and hearing from a couple ppl that driving more aggressively and keeping the revs high will help burn off the carbon. Does anyone have any knowledge of this?

It's claimed in vw's patent but I wouldn't trust that as a solution. As part of a battery of preventative measures, yes.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (GTIBOIL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIBOIL* »_anything besides a catch can to prevent this from happening? im at 34k and no idea about the buildup

Some very easy/low cost preventative options that can help but will not solve the DI valve deposit problems:
1) Use a low volatility and good cleaning oil (cost: additional $5-$10 per oil change)
2) Seafoam, lubro moly valve cleaner, water, etc. through the intake at every oil change (search for dsire thread for a DIY) (cost: $3.50-$10)
3) Regular italian tuneups (VW claims int the engine patent that running at high rpm for over 20 min will burn off deposits but I think it will only help a little) (cost: gas)
4) Catch can (all kinds of flavors out there) (cost: $30-$300)
5) Fuel injector cleaner in the gas to deal with fuel injector deposits (will not help with intake valve or intake deposits) (cost:$5-$10)
More difficult/expensive "helping but not solving options"
6) BG induction service or similar (cost: $135-$250?)
7) water/meth injection (cost: ???)
8) remove intake and clean valves every 50k or so (cost: ????)
Some one-time-fix-the-problem options:
1) bypass pcv and route to exhaust (search for saaber2 thread "bypassing pcv") (cost $125-$175)
2) Run a catch can that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?)? may have smell or freezing issues?) (cost: $300?)
3) Run a "down tube" or "road tube" that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?) (cost: $25 -$50)



_Modified by saaber2 at 7:22 PM 8-12-2009_


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: carbon build up (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
It's claimed in vw's patent but I wouldn't trust that as a solution. As part of a battery of preventative measures, yes.









I agree, it probably just aids in cleaning. I am going to try and seafoam at least every other oil change.
Do you have a full article for that picture you posted?


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_
I agree, it probably just aids in cleaning. I am going to try and seafoam at least every other oil change.
Do you have a full article for that picture you posted?

A glutton for punishment I see... ha ha. It is a long read. I'll dig it up. Here it is http://www.google.com/patents?...A1,M1
Somebody on vortex found the above passage. Maybe he will chime in. Sorry I can't remember who it was or I would give them credit for finding that.



_Modified by saaber2 at 7:29 PM 8-12-2009_


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (saaber2)*

105k w/o catchcan, running w/m injection part time, seafoamed once around 40-50k, bg induction cleaner aroung 80-90k...








I guess W/M FTMFW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bfourney (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: carbon build up (euro inc)*

Are people getting deposits like this under normal driving conditions or are tracked cars more prone? I drive for extended periods at high RPMs at least once a month doing canyon runs - usually 4-6K+ RPMs for over 30 minutes at a time, that should help or make it worse?


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: carbon build up (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
A glutton for punishment I see... ha ha. It is a long read. I'll dig it up. Here it is http://www.google.com/patents?...A1,M1
Somebody on vortex found the above passage. Maybe he will chime in. Sorry I can't remember who it was or I would give them credit for finding that.
_Modified by saaber2 at 7:29 PM 8-12-2009_

thanks for the help bro








Hopefully my seafoam goes well


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (bfourney)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bfourney* »_Are people getting deposits like this under normal driving conditions or are tracked cars more prone? I drive for extended periods at high RPMs at least once a month doing canyon runs - usually 4-6K+ RPMs for over 30 minutes at a time, that should help or make it worse?

In theory that should help and probably does in reality. 
BTW, it is interesting that VW says in the patent that the highest loading of crankcase gasses comes from higher rpm and light load, which would seem to indicate lots of highway driving on cruise control would form the most deposits. Yet we know that around town in the winter fills catch cans to the brim. No way to escape it I guess.


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

I'm actualyl really tempted to get a BSH Race catch can, but I am mainly concerned about the smell and emissions. I know some people have said the smell isn't bad, but smell is a perception.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: carbon build up (2pt0tee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt0tee* »_105k w/o catchcan, running w/m injection part time, seafoamed once around 40-50k, bg induction cleaner aroung 80-90k...
I guess W/M FTMFW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









That is fantastic that your valves look that good. However the valves below at 28k had both meth and a catch can! 
So definitely meth helps but doesn't solve the problem, The more preventative measures you use the better IMO (unless you completely eliminate the problem through a bypass to exhaust, downtube, or race can of course and then they are not needed).








From this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4468026


_Modified by saaber2 at 7:55 PM 8-12-2009_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_I'm actualyl really tempted to get a BSH Race catch can, but I am mainly concerned about the smell and emissions. I know some people have said the smell isn't bad, but smell is a perception.

You're better off having a vacuum pull on the can. (recirculated setup)
Dave


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*

Care to explain why?

_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
You're better off having a vacuum pull on the can. (recirculated setup)
Dave


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_I'm actualyl really tempted to get a BSH Race catch can, but I am mainly concerned about the smell and emissions. I know some people have said the smell isn't bad, but smell is a perception.

A downtube would accomplish the same thing for around $25ish and at least according to zoomzoom on BITOG who is running it on his audi 2.7TT, there is no smell because it exits beneath the car. 
I haven't tried it myself although once I thoroughly test the oil condition with the bypass to exhaust setup I may take the tube off the exhaust nipple to test the "downtube" setup. Just something to think about. 
I know conglomerategti ran his this way (tube off of the stock pcv that vents to atmosphere) but he had it exiting in the engine compartment which I believe he said had an odor and splattered around the engine bay (have to go back and read his thread to remember exactly).
You would still have the emissions issue with the downtube but you are talking about 10 minutes of work to put it back to stock so it is almost nothing.


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Yea, switching the catch can on and off is not an issue, i can do it in minutes. I am just considering if it's worth spending more money to get a race can, as I already have a BSH Stage 1 plate and Stage 2 catch can, and I am going to be getting new forge catch can for a low price to replace my steel wool catch can. For all I know, I am driving this car for perhaps another 3 years, and I most likely wont hit 90,000km.


----------



## 2pt0tee (Apr 28, 2008)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_That is fantastic that your valves look that good. However the valves below at 28k had both meth and a catch can!


Those valves don't look that bad. Looks similar to mine at 105k. So maybe the w/m is helping to prevent it from getting to the point it did on iGen3's motor....


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

down tube? i dont follow.


----------



## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
Some very easy/low cost preventative options that can help but will not solve the DI valve deposit problems:
1) Use a low volatility and good cleaning oil (cost: additional $5-$10 per oil change)
2) Seafoam, lubro moly valve cleaner, water, etc. through the intake at every oil change (search for dsire thread for a DIY) (cost: $3.50-$10)
3) Regular italian tuneups (VW claims int the engine patent that running at high rpm for over 20 min will burn off deposits but I think it will only help a little) (cost: gas)
4) Catch can (all kinds of flavors out there) (cost: $30-$300)
5) Fuel injector cleaner in the gas to deal with fuel injector deposits (will not help with intake valve or intake deposits) (cost:$5-$10)
More difficult/expensive "helping but not solving options"
6) BG induction service or similar (cost: $135-$250?)
7) water/meth injection (cost: ???)
8) remove intake and clean valves every 50k or so (cost: ????)
Some one-time-fix-the-problem options:
1) bypass pcv and route to exhaust (search for saaber2 thread "bypassing pcv") (cost $125-$175)
2) Run a catch can that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?)? may have smell or freezing issues?) (cost: $300?)
3) Run a "down tube" or "road tube" that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?) (cost: $25 -$50)
_Modified by saaber2 at 7:22 PM 8-12-2009_

Saaber2 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
MODERATORS CAN WE MAKE THIS A STICKY ????????????????????


----------



## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_down tube? i dont follow.

look at saaber2's thread about routing PCV to exhaust. Basically instead of routing it off the front PCV and going to exhaust, you have a tube run literally to the ground under the car. The crankcase gases evac under no vacuum, and simply go into the atmposhere.


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

Hey saaber, when you seafoam, when you almost finish the seafoam, do you submerge the hose into the seafoam so that the engine dies? or just let it suck it in all slowly and turn off the engine?
Someone on another forum said when most of the seafoam is sucked in, submerge the hose into the seafoam until the engine dies, and start it up again 15 mins later.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*

either. the valves will be soaked it in anyways, so no need to kill it.
ive done both, and i can tell u, stalling it makes no difference, other than... well, stalling it.


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: (Krieger)*

Thanks Krieger'
So, my understanding of the correct procedure is..
-let the seafoam suck into the hose slowly,
-Turn off the car for 15 mins
-Put your hose back to the boost gauge, turn it on and drive it to the dealer for an oil change


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_either. the valves will be soaked it in anyways, so no need to kill it.
ive done both, and i can tell u, stalling it makes no difference, other than... well, stalling it.


----------



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_ drive it to the dealer for an oil change

Yikes! Avoid the dealer at all costs unless there is no other choice!!!
Remember the golden rule, "A VW that never sees the dealer is a happy VW"
Dsire's seafoaming method link can be found here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4256886


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
Yikes! Avoid the dealer at all costs unless there is no other choice!!!
Remember the golden rule, "A VW that never sees the dealer is a happy VW"


lol, WAY too true.
change it urself. every 5k miles should be good. you arent waiting till 10k... right? lol


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_Thanks Krieger'
So, my understanding of the correct procedure is..
-let the seafoam suck into the hose slowly,
-Turn off the car for 15 mins
-Put your hose back to the boost gauge, turn it on and drive it to the dealer for an oil change



oh yeah, and when u turn it back on after ur 15 min soak time, REDLINE IT as you drive. just beat the snot out of her. the more you make the valves open and close, the better your chances are of breaking crap off.


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_
oh yeah, and when u turn it back on after ur 15 min soak time, REDLINE IT as you drive. just beat the snot out of her. the more you make the valves open and close, the better your chances are of breaking crap off.









Thanks guys. So just drive it aggressively while it's choking out and it's fine?
As for the dealer.. I can understand, I might bring it to a smaller shop for the every 8k services that aren't marked in the book. I have a 32k service coming up, so I proly have to go back to the dealer depending on what they are doing. At least my dealer carries motul 8100 xcess.
BTW.. is it ok to seafoam with my catch can on? Or should I switch back to my BSH Stg 1 plate while I seafoam?



_Modified by Malaco0219 at 6:58 PM 8-13-2009_


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*

u have IM.
and ur ok with the catch can. it wont hurt anything at all.


----------



## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: (Krieger)*

Thanks buddy
I'll have to look for seafoam today.

_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_u have IM.
and ur ok with the catch can. it wont hurt anything at all.


----------



## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_Thanks buddy
I'll have to look for seafoam today.


WALLYWORLD FTW! lol aka walmart.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
WALLYWORLD FTW! lol aka walmart. 

this. lol
btw, anyone ever use just straight water? i heard it wont hurt anything, and it wont smoke.


----------

