# carbon build up issues - how common?



## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

I keep reading about this problem but I can't tell how common it really is b/c generally only the people that have had a problem chime in. Anyone been driving their car for a while and check the intake valves and discover there isn't much build-up? Just curious. Thanks


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Tommunist said:


> I keep reading about this problem but I can't tell how common it really is b/c generally only the people that have had a problem chime in. Anyone been driving their car for a while and check the intake valves and discover there isn't much build-up? Just curious. Thanks


 I think the problem is only a tiny percentage of people have looked into it. I am at 110k miles and may have an issue but really don't know. MPG is as good as ever and I can't tell if there is a reduction in performance so I haven't looked.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Tommunist said:


> I keep reading about this problem but I can't tell how common it really is b/c generally only the people that have had a problem chime in. Anyone been driving their car for a while and check the intake valves and discover there isn't much build-up? Just curious. Thanks


 The carbon build-up on intake valves is a problem on ALL direct-injection cars. Whether it is BMW, VW Audi, Mazda, etc. It's not a matter of who has issues. Most of us that are running tuned cars with more fuel being requested get misfires at idle due to the insufficient air flow on cold-start. EVERY FSI has carbon buildup top a degree.........may be extremely bad or just bad. But typically by 60K miles there is a considerable amount of intake port blockage from the carbon goo. It's not gonna really effect MPG or anything to the average Joe. But once you clean the valves and DRIVE the car hard, you'll see a "Night and Day" difference in the response and power of the car. It's CRAZY!! Idle is 20X smoother and car pulls a lot better due to the correct swirling of air and mixture with fuel. 

So yes, it's an issue with all FSI cars and starting to see some higher mileage TSI engines that have buildup, just not as bad at this point. I've had 100+ intake manifolds off FSI cars and every one has carbon buildup. Even starting in low 20K mile range, still see carbon starting to build up. Especially if owner just drives car and not as spirited as most of us. 
-J. Hines


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

I've checked my valves via borescope twice (50k & 60k) and can see the build up on the valves. Haven't bothered to pull the intake yet because I haven't had cold start misfires that cause any concern. Randomly I can feel it miss at idle. I'll be pulling the manifold to clean it over the winter but probably more towards spring for piece of mind. :beer:


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

I work on MINI's and we see the S models with direct injection have enough carbon buildup to cause misfires starting at around 15K. The carbon buildup gets so thick that it actually causes high leakdown and we have to remove the cylinder head to completely disassemble and clean all of the carbon out. I personally haven't checked my FSI out yet but I'm at 44K and no misfires yet (knocks on wood)...


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

jhines_06gli said:


> The carbon build-up on intake valves is a problem on ALL direct-injection cars. Whether it is BMW, VW Audi, Mazda, etc. It's not a matter of who has issues. Most of us that are running tuned cars with more fuel being requested get misfires at idle due to the insufficient air flow on cold-start. EVERY FSI has carbon buildup top a degree.........may be extremely bad or just bad. But typically by 60K miles there is a considerable amount of intake port blockage from the carbon goo. It's not gonna really effect MPG or anything to the average Joe. But once you clean the valves and DRIVE the car hard, you'll see a "Night and Day" difference in the response and power of the car. It's CRAZY!! Idle is 20X smoother and car pulls a lot better due to the correct swirling of air and mixture with fuel.
> 
> So yes, it's an issue with all FSI cars and starting to see some higher mileage TSI engines that have buildup, just not as bad at this point. I've had 100+ intake manifolds off FSI cars and every one has carbon buildup. Even starting in low 20K mile range, still see carbon starting to build up. Especially if owner just drives car and not as spirited as most of us.
> -J. Hines


 So it is true that all DI cars will have this issue. So I guess on the 2.0t - at what point does it generally become a problem? The other factor is the spirited driving you mention. Most of the time I am doing a short commute to work so the car won't be warmed up for very long which means I won't be really reving it up much. Sure I could take it out for a trip on the weekends and really lay into it while getting on the highway but I'm not sure if that would be enough or not. 

Also - does the carbon build up cause permanent damage or does it just need to get cleaned out? If yes, what would be a reasonable time period between cleanings?


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## racer_41 (Aug 27, 2003)

I've got it on mine...


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

racer_41 said:


> I've got it on mine...


 how many miles?


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

So I guess I'm left with this - is this a problem serious enough that I should avoid this engine all together? I'd love to stick with a VW for my next car but the 2.0T is really the only engine I'm interested in. The 2.5 doesn't do it for me (not enough power and mediocre mpg) and the TDI would not mesh with my short commute. 

Would you 2.0T owners do it all over again or would you pick up a car with a diff engine?


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

another question - it sounds like the faulty PCV makes this problem pop up sooner. is that correct? has anyone with a newer 2.0t with the redesigned PCV run into this problem yet?


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

My A4 looks REAL bad at a bit over 30k. Stock. 

I plan on pulling it apart to clean ... again. 

I wouldn't personally buy a DI car again - but every time I drive it I get out with a smile. I can definitely understand how it's worth it to some.


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

You could add a catch can and it will slow the issue.


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## GtiBoogiemann (Nov 16, 2002)

cryption said:


> You could add a catch can and it will slow the issue.


 I've talked to multiple technicians and they all agree it's only gonna reduce gunk and stuff by fractions. I mean I have a catch can myself and they're ripping my engine apart and it's not lookin great.


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

I just don't understand how VW can get away with this. There are a ton of cars with FSI and if they all have this problem it's going to really hurt brand loyalty. I'm a perfect example - if the 2.0t didn't have this problem there wouldn't be much else holding me back from picking up a GTI but this seems pretty serious to me.


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

Cars have become disposable. People trade them after 3 years, or don't go over 50k miles.


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

cryption said:


> Cars have become disposable. People trade them after 3 years, or don't go over 50k miles.


 that's too bad. my car is about 9 years old and has 90k on it. I'm just thinking the VR is going to start needing some serious love soon (clutch, maybe some stuff relating to the timing chain). all of this stuff with carbon buildup has me considering just holding onto my VR. the GTI was really the only car I was even moderately excited about. everything else feels a little boring and I'd just be looking for good MPGs and reliability.


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

Tommunist said:


> that's too bad. my car is about 9 years old and has 90k on it. I'm just thinking the VR is going to start needing some serious love soon (clutch, maybe some stuff relating to the timing chain). all of this stuff with carbon buildup has me considering just holding onto my VR. the GTI was really the only car I was even moderately excited about. everything else feels a little boring and I'd just be looking for good MPGs and reliability.


 Get a 2.5 dude. I love my 2.5 JSW. It's at almost 60k, no problems, and I expect it to keep running for years


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

cryption said:


> Get a 2.5 dude. I love my 2.5 JSW. It's at almost 60k, no problems, and I expect it to keep running for years


 what does jsw stand for?


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

Jetta Sport Wagon


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

cryption said:


> Jetta Sport Wagon


 duh! too bad you can't get leather with the manual transmission :screwy:


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## racer_41 (Aug 27, 2003)

As of today 79,780. 

I needed maintenence items due anyway so I replaced plugs and fuel filter, both of which could cause the cold start misfire. 

Before that, I ran a can of BG44 through and had the BG pressurized treatment done. In some cases, this may reduce the issue. 

My car _is_ running much smoother but I have had a couple of rough cold starts with one CEL that reset after xx starts. 

I may add that I have not had the carbon issue verified with a scope as of yet, but based on what three VW techs said, I've probably got it to some degree. 

Also, I have always used Shell VPower and nothing else since day 1.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

racer_41 said:


> As of today 79,780.
> 
> I needed maintenence items due anyway so I replaced plugs and fuel filter, both of which could cause the cold start misfire.
> 
> ...


 ALL FSI engine have carbon as stated, so you do to some degree have buildup. And what people do not understand about direct-injection is as you stated. "I have always used V-Power and nothing else"...............the fuel never touches the valves, so doesn't matter what fuel you use with their "cleaning additives" or nitrogen in the fuel. What's it gonna break up on the valves? Just cleans the tops of the pistons which ALL fuel does when sprayed at 120+BAR! 

But yes, it's a issue with the injection type. So nothing we can do to 100% prevent the buildup, just have to treat it as a maintanence item. I'm at 135K and was cleaning my valves every 20K. Went through all the PCV "fixes" and several catchcans before going VTA catchcan. That's the best I've been able to do so far. Cut my cleanings back to every 40K and they look better at that interval than they ever did at 20K with the "fixes" on it. Oh yea.....also use SeaFoam through the IAT port every 10K a few hundred miles before the oil changes. 
-J. Hines


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

jhines_06gli said:


> ALL FSI engine have carbon as stated, so you do to some degree have buildup. And what people do not understand about direct-injection is as you stated. "I have always used V-Power and nothing else"...............the fuel never touches the valves, so doesn't matter what fuel you use with their "cleaning additives" or nitrogen in the fuel. What's it gonna break up on the valves? Just cleans the tops of the pistons which ALL fuel does when sprayed at 120+BAR!
> 
> But yes, it's a issue with the injection type. So nothing we can do to 100% prevent the buildup, just have to treat it as a maintanence item. I'm at 135K and was cleaning my valves every 20K. Went through all the PCV "fixes" and several catchcans before going VTA catchcan. That's the best I've been able to do so far. Cut my cleanings back to every 40K and they look better at that interval than they ever did at 20K with the "fixes" on it. Oh yea.....also use SeaFoam through the IAT port every 10K a few hundred miles before the oil changes.
> -J. Hines


 man - what ever happened to just changing the oil regularly? cleaning the intake every 20k? seafoam every 10K? that sounds like a lot of extra work to me.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

Tommunist said:


> man - what ever happened to just changing the oil regularly? cleaning the intake every 20k? seafoam every 10K? that sounds like a lot of extra work to me.


 all in the name of owning a 2.0t fsi :laugh:


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

MFZERO said:


> all in the name of owning a 2.0t fsi :laugh:


 I still get it. It's a pretty sweet engine otherwise :laugh:


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Tommunist said:


> man - what ever happened to just changing the oil regularly? cleaning the intake every 20k? seafoam every 10K? that sounds like a lot of extra work to me.


 It is sorta like changing oil for me now. Done it soo many times, like clockwork now after the first 80-90 times. It's a sick engine.....wish someone could get the RS4 injector tune right though!!! :banghead:


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

jhines_06gli said:


> It is sorta like changing oil for me now. Done it soo many times, like clockwork now after the first 80-90 times. It's a sick engine.....wish someone could get the RS4 injector tune right though!!! :banghead:


 yeah - what I don't like is the idea going into a new car that I'll have to have someone who knows what they are doing perform extra maintanence for me. I have a really good VW/Audi guy right now but if he goes out of business or decides to close up shop or whatever then what do I do??


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## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

I think if you have a 2.0t you should really do your own work .... it gets expensive otherwise


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## mattA3 (Feb 24, 2010)

How about investing in water/meth injection? Would a constant steam cleaning keep the valves gunk free?


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

mattA3 said:


> How about investing in water/meth injection? Would a constant steam cleaning keep the valves gunk free?


 I've seen it mentioned but I'm not sure if anyone has been running with it long enough to show positive results.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

mattA3 said:


> How about investing in water/meth injection? Would a constant steam cleaning keep the valves gunk free?


 one would need to clean the valves first then install water/meth to make it most useful. A number of users will tell you that it has kept any build up from happening (and mfgs. of water/meth kits tell you it will reduce carbon build up) and some users will tell you it does nothing to keep the valves clean.
:beer:


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

MFZERO said:


> one would need to clean the valves first then install water/meth to make it most useful. A number of users will tell you that it has kept any build up from happening (and mfgs. of water/meth kits tell you it will reduce carbon build up) and some users will tell you it does nothing to keep the valves clean.
> :beer:


 I'm a little confused about why people can't come to an agreement on this stuff - if you have it and you check and there is minimal carbon build up after a bunch of miles it's working right?


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

I've noticed some threads with before and after pics with regards to cleaning but has anyone posted a comprehensive how-to on doing this?


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Tommunist said:


> I've noticed some threads with before and after pics with regards to cleaning but has anyone posted a comprehensive how-to on doing this?


 I'll get one made soon....next time I do this, which should be soon since I've got a friend with cold-start misfires.....I'll do an intense photo-filled "How-To" for you guys. Just keep in mind my way may be different than others. After all.......the quicker I work and less stuff I have to take off to do my job.....the more $$$ in my pocket!! 
-J. Hines 

And time will be a LOT different from how long it takes me and how long you can expect it to take you.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

I've cleaned the valves in my girlfriend's car and took me a while as it was my first time taking any of this stuff of a mk5. I have a plan for when it comes time to do mine for a couple things to skip during removal. I followed Stasis' instructions for injector removal for their Ko4 kit then went at the valves.

I'm interested to see J-Hines' DIY for some tips too :thumbup: :beer:


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

jhines_06gli said:


> And time will be a LOT different from how long it takes me and how long you can expect it to take you.


 how many hours of labor would expect a reputable shop to charge for this?


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

jhines_06gli said:


> I'll get one made soon....next time I do this, which should be soon since I've got a friend with cold-start misfires.....I'll do an intense photo-filled "How-To" for you guys. Just keep in mind my way may be different than others. After all.......the quicker I work and less stuff I have to take off to do my job.....the more $$$ in my pocket!!
> -J. Hines
> 
> And time will be a LOT different from how long it takes me and how long you can expect it to take you.


 Just curious; what is the typical charge when you clean someone's engine? I've been procrastinating doing this (I'm at 117K miles and get the occasional misfire on startup which, so far, I can clean up with FI cleaner in the tank) and if it's not too horribly expensive may let my local indie have at it. I'd like to know a ballpark on what to expect, though.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jmj said:


> I've been procrastinating doing this (I'm at 117K miles and get the occasional misfire on startup which, so far, I can clean up with FI cleaner in the tank) and if it's not too horribly expensive may let my local indie have at it.


 FI cleaner (or better gas additives) in the fuel tank will do nothing for carbon buildup since the gas is injected directly and no gas touches the back side of intake valves.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

MFZERO said:


> I've cleaned the valves in my girlfriend's car and took me a while as it was my first time taking any of this stuff of a mk5. I have a plan for when it comes time to do mine for a couple things to skip during removal. I followed Stasis' instructions for injector removal for their Ko4 kit then went at the valves.
> 
> I'm interested to see J-Hines' DIY for some tips too :thumbup: :beer:


 Job is lined up for next week......so expect the DIY then. Gonna see if I can get as much detail as possible, so hope your internet speed is good....lol. Put the Canon I spent so much money on for the wife to use for DUBs!!! But it's a 2006 GTI with 110K miles on it. Never had ANYTHING done to it other than oil changes and stuff until recent owner. So we'll get that all done next week 
-J. Hines


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

nice!


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## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

Looking forward to the DIY :thumbup: 

(my car is currently at 75k)


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

When my K04 went in, my mech. also was replacing something(code related) and the injectors which allowed him to look into the build-up on the intake valves. He told me it was surprisingly clean in there. So, I agree it's hit or miss. 61k now.


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## WatchMyDub (Oct 26, 2008)

How much would a vw dealership charge for intake valve cleanings? I really doubt myself to be able to perform this strenuous task.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

WatchMyDub said:


> How much would a vw dealership charge for intake valve cleanings? I really doubt myself to be able to perform this strenuous task.


 Mine said about $150 (includes the 3 cans of BG44K it takes for that type of service). I'm considering asking about the use of mineral spirits because that's all that tschiedt is. The cost would be 1/2 that. I've been using mineral spirits as a fuel additive for years with no problems. 6 - 8oz. per tank to clean the nozzles every oil change(3300 miles)


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

WatchMyDub said:


> How much would a vw dealership charge for intake valve cleanings? I really doubt myself to be able to perform this strenuous task.


 For the hand-cleaning? Prepare to open your wallet! You're looking at 4 inj. kits at $15/each, intake gasket at about $12, SeaFoam at about $12 and then the labor. As for labor, out dealer is 5 hours($105/hour) to do this task. Not sure how the other techs do it here as I've only been at this shop for about 3 months, but they are SPOTLESS when I'm done. The other guys use a method that doesn't seem as effective as what I do, but oh well.....to each his own. But yes, I'll have a solid 60-90 minutes in hands-on scraping and scubbing the valves to get them clean, so it's pretty nasty stuff. I use some tools that a lot of you probably won't have, but there are alternative "household" tools I'll suggest in the DIY. But all-in-all, I've had very good success with this repair and customers see a drastic change when done. The idle is smooth like butter and it's crazy at the throttle response compared to before. Like chipping your car all over again if your valves were pretty dirty before cleaning. 
-J. Hines


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

ROH ECHT said:


> When my K04 went in, my mech. also was replacing something(code related) which allowed him to look into the build-up on the intake valves. He told me it was surprisingly clean in there. So, I agree it's hit or miss. 61k now.


 I find this confusing - why would it affect some cars and not others?


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Tommunist said:


> I find this confusing - why would it affect some cars and not others?


It affects all cars, just the degree of blockage changes between cars depending on driving style and road type. If you drive with your foot barely in gas conserving fuel in the city all the time, you're gonna build up carbon and gunk a lot faster than the person that lays into it getting on the interstate for his 30 miles commute to work every day. He is blowing the system out by keeping the engine flowing more air for a longer period of time and operating at normal temp more. 

There really is no explanation for why cars differ......each car is a like a person with it's individual characteristics and flaws. No 2 cars are the same. You can dyno 2 EXACT cars with the EXACT MODS and they'll have different results. But all we know is that every manufacturer is fighting this issue.......just seems that VW has it the worst since that's what we own. But in all truth, BMW was fighting this first with the 330/335 cars and the twin-turbo I6. 
-J. Hines


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## peppa (Apr 17, 2009)

Can't wait to see J-Hines' DIY with some good tips too.


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## the88gti (Dec 9, 2009)

I just opened mine up and it was pretty nasty in there (as expected), im currently at 66,000 miles and I seafoamed the car probably 3 or 4 times (20k, 30k, 45k and 55k). the valves where not the dirtiest i have seen but I can see how it would diminish engine performance with all that gunk in there, also the injectors where pretty dirty, two of them came out with the intake manifold and where caked with carbon so i decided to take out the other 2 also, im sure the car will run like a champ after i put it back together.
I would totally recommend cleaning your intake valves, intake manifold, injectors, throttle body and all the piping every 60K if you want your car running at 100% or plan to keep it for the long run. 
Also maybe its just me but it was a fun project to tacle, very time consuming but I love working on my car and keeping it like if it was brand new or better. :thumbup:


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## Boosted2003! (Mar 10, 2009)

Running Meth/Water injection can help with this issue.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Boosted2003! said:


> Running Meth/Water injection can help with this issue.


It won't help unless run direct port to spray on each valve. Most people will not tackle the task of drilling into their intake manifold and going that route. Spraying across throttle body has already proved to be an issue with water/moisture passing the seal and getting on electronics. Plus it doesn't actually spray on the valves, just kinda makes it sorta up there. We are working on a solution, just takes some time to get it 100%.
-J. Hines

Did 2 valve cleanings today, so got some pictures of the process. I'll try to put everything in "simple" terms and get the pictures assigned to descriptions over the next few days


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

it does help. pulled my many to fix an oil leak around the oil cooler and they looked great. they where dark with soot, but not built up or anything, and the only wet oil seen was near the valve stem which is normal... been 20,000 miles since the last cleaning, and about 18 gallons of WM.

what sucks is I had to install an old PCV block off plate that routes a fraction back into the sysem to cut down on the amount of smoke coming out at idle from my VTA system, as well as to route the crank case line into the head... so that definitely could have been a huge source of the small amount of soot/carbon that covered and was baked on the valves.


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

jhines_06gli said:


> We are working on a solution, just takes some time to get it 100%.


an aftermarket solution?


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## Tommunist (Feb 7, 2004)

Any updates on that DIY? Just checking to make sure I didn't miss it (been occasionally scanning the forum).


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## D-TechniK (Aug 25, 2002)

ttt


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Maybe someone can x2 this, so doesn't the amount of pollutants you're driving through(if any gets by the filter) and the oil residue getting in the intercooler plus temps make a huge diff here?


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## Cintoman (Feb 20, 2010)

Figured I'd resurrect this thread since I ran into a cold-start misfire when starting up my wife's '10 2.0T TSI Passat Wagon that sat in my garage for about a week. CEL was blinking and rough idle for a few minutes. Next day the CEL came on at as per normal startup, and then shut off. Still rough idling. So I put in a call to my dealership to have it checked out.

They gave me the same BS about how it's all about the fuel I've been putting in the car, and since it's not a problem with the engine, but rather the fuel, it's likely not going to be covered by VW. My wife's car has 34K on the clock and we bought it new in March 2010 (11/23/2009 production build date). I called BS on this because nowhere in the manual does it say I have to put in X brand of gasoline vs. another brand. 

To prove to the Service Manager that it's not the fuel, I told him since Day 1 all I've put in the car was Shell 93 V-Power, to which he countered by saying that although Shell is Tier-1 gas, thanks to the Bush administration, when gas prices were going up back in 2008 or so, Bush instituted a law that didn't require oil companies to put in as much detergents in their gasolines, and, as such, even Shell V-Power doesn't have as many detergents as they used to. So that's the reason for the carbon build up.

He thought he had me at that, but again I called BS because with a DI engine, the fuel doesn't pass over the intake valves, unlike port injected engines who's intake valves are constantly washed by fuel.

Eventually, they placed a call into VW Corporate, who, after many hours (and free hot chocolate at the dealership) agreed to do the intake cleaning under warranty. Normally, the SM advised me, this would be about a $600 job.

So I'm happy it's done. Car is a lot quicker and very responsive. I didn't notice the diminished power before the cleaning (and before the problem came up), but now that it's done, it's quite a noticeable difference. I think it was because the loss of power is slight and over a long period of time.

Cintoman


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## 98Silve1.8t (Sep 16, 2001)

Is there any coating/or polish we can do after cleaning out the carbon to prevent/prolong the build up next time??


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

98Silve1.8t said:


> Is there any coating/or polish we can do after cleaning out the carbon to prevent/prolong the build up next time??


No. You could run water/meth when they are clean and that would help prevent build up. Don't think it does much when they are already bad tho.


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## mattrs4 (Jun 16, 2011)

Soon I also want to do the cleaning of the valves, and I promise that I'll put a tutorial with various video and photo. But after cleaning himself disconnecting oil vapor from the intake, and the aspiration of the turbine. do not resolve the problems? I was planning to disconnect everything and connect the tank with a filter and do not let them go back on the intake. could be harmful to the engine not having the depression?


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## BCinco (Dec 17, 2006)

Here is my experience with the carbon cleaning:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...rvice-Pt.-2-Carbon-Deposit-Cleaning-in-Action

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5749626-I-spent-my-4th-of-July-cleaning-my-valves

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...tion-Service-Quasi-Review-Initial-Impressions


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