# ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

This post has been authorized by [email protected]

*Abunai Worldwide* and *Rennen Performance* would like to announce a new VW/Audi tuning system currently in the Beta phase of development. The *Pro-Tuner se* is a hybrid engine controller programmable by a Windows based user interface. The system utilizes a weather-tight aluminum extruded enclosure located in the engine bay with an electrical harness running to the injectors. Plug the Pro-Tuner se onto your fuel injectors, connect a few more wires and your ready to tune.
The Pro-tuner se gives tuners and enthusiasts the necessary means to get the maximum potential out of their VW/Audi for any turbo application. It is as powerful as a standalone, and it is not a piggyback system that “fools” the stock ECU’s sensors. It’s hybrid design offers the best of both worlds. You have complete control over fuel, ignition, and boost to over 30psi as in a standalone, while retaining your stock ECU to run everything else, including your tachometer and OBD II functions.
The Pro-tuner se features full datalogging up to 10 hours with graphical playback, RPM rev limiter launch control, boost control up to 30psi with low boost/high boost toggle, and real time programming with the engine running. The Pro-tuner se enhances currently chipped ECU’s..
The Pro-tuner se also features a *dynamometer mode! * Enter the weight of your car, tire size and gear ratio, and the Pro-tuner se can calculate and graph your horsepower and torque as you drive, while datalogging your oxygen sensor! The makes the Pro-tuner se an all in one tuning solution. Change your fuel, ignition, or boost settings, and get immediate feedback from the dyno mode if you made an improvement.
Best of all, the pricing will be much less expensive than your current Stand Alone Management. Pro-Tuner se initial production is designed for the 1.8T engine (both cable and wire driven) for initial production and will have VR6 and 2.0 versions released shortly there after. There will be more information about Pro-Tuner se released in the near future, however we were given this opportunity to announce Pro-Tuner se here first on the Vortex thanks to Sean, and wanted to give you enthusiasts and idea of what’s to come in the Spring of ‘04. Be sure to check our website in the upcoming months to read more about Pro-Tuner se. 
....Stay Tuned.... 
Pro-Tuner se Features::
~Programmable Fuel Control over full RPM and load range to 30psi of boost.
~Compensates for any size fuel injector.
~Ignition timing control over full RPM and load range to 30psi of boost.
~Turbocharger wastegate boost control (stock or aftermarket) to 30psi.
~Dynamometer (dyno) mode, get horsepower and torque graphs as you drive!
~High/Low Boost switch input
~Programmable RPM activated switch for Nitrous Oxide control, Shift Light, etc...
~Launch Control Rev Limiter.
~MAP sensor clamp circuitry to eliminate overboost MIL light
~Full datalogging up to 10 hours with graphical playback with fast forward and slow replay.
~Graphical mapping of datalog playback linked with load tables.
~Load tables are real time programmable with engine running.
~O2 Sensor input, configurable for stock or wideband. Easily configurable for any 5v analog input including knock sensor.
~Enhances and compatible with all existing chip tunes!
~Injector pulse width and duty cycle measurement with duty cycle alert.
~Real Time PC screen updates, serial port programmable and configurable.
~Active cell indicator so you can easily identify current load point while tuning to adjust fuel and timing accordingly.
~Easily installed- Clips directly onto fuel injectors
~Reconfigurable to any engine so can be transferred to another vehicle
~Weather-tight aluminum extruded enclosure.
Screen Shot of Pro-Tuner se load table


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## KrautFed (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Pro-Tuner se initial production is designed for the 1.8T engine (both cable and wire driven)

Umm.... bump!


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KrautFed)*

Double


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## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KrautFed)*

I will buy one...... I am ready!


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Very interesting sounds like if this product works well it may be a good way to go as I add more boost or other engine upgrades. From what I read I could also put in larger injecotrs and then just re-tune.?
Lets hear more on cost and when the VR6 will be out. Also this will work on OBD1 I hope?


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## VR6 Oh my (Jan 6, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Scooter98144)*

I'd be in for one...OBD1 X-Flow...but you guys won't have it ready in time for me...







Prices and ETA on this set-up would be greatly appreciated anyway http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
and it is not a piggyback system that “fools” the stock ECU’s sensors. 

Pro-Tuner se Features::
~~MAP sensor clamp circuitry to eliminate overboost MIL light
~Enhances and compatible with all existing chip tunes!
~Easily installed- Clips directly onto fuel injectors



The product sounds good however it would probably more appreciated if you advertised it for what it really is. First you say its not a piggy back, but some of the features you describe show that it really is a piggyback setup, and it is in fact tricking some of the stock sensor...


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## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_

The product sounds good however it would probably more appreciated if you advertised it for what it really is. First you say its not a piggy back, but some of the features you describe show that it really is a piggyback setup, and it is in fact tricking some of the stock sensor...

eh... regardless... sounds good... as long as adaptation wont interfer with settings.
how much will this thing go for??


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## tony_pappas (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (VR6 Oh my)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6 Oh my* »_Prices and ETA on this set-up would be greatly appreciated anyway http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I second that one. I am just getting ready to do my OBD1 x-flow 2.0T
I'm in.


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## Dr. Edlocks (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Sounds promising. Awaiting more info. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_
eh... regardless... sounds good... as long as adaptation wont interfer with settings.
how much will this thing go for??

thats the point if its just a piggy back (which it is even if they call it a cowwy back) then adaptation can overrun the settings you program in, if you keep programming past those setting, then you can make out the adaptation and end up with a CEL.


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## Dog_Eater (May 20, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (chris86vw)*

Too good to be true?







I sure as hell hope not.


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Dog_Eater)*

Lets here more shall we


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## Super1.8T (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Can't believe how much has happened regarding this in the past few weeks! I could care less if the thing is a piggy-back unit. If it gives us full control of whatever we want, and the ECU stays happy, they'll make a mint, and I'll contribute.
The ONLY thing stopping me from building the 1.8T I want (and probably a lot of other people) is how to fool the computer, or how to get rid of it and go stand-alone. Now if they can provide base maps and design the thing to "learn" (tunes itself, fuel curves, etc) the sky's the limit!


_Modified by Super1.8T at 7:09 PM 1-27-2004_


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Super1.8T)*

price? and release date for obd1 vr6???


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## spoolin turbo s (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Super1.8T)*

in for updates 
you got my interest


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## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (spoolin turbo s)*

price?


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## carbide01 (Jul 12, 2003)

yes price and this sounds very piggyback LOL. but i like the NOS feature


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (chris86vw)*

It has an input for an o2 sensor, it could also have an output to show the ECU what it wants. Adaptation be damned. 
Or in another case, your tuning would show the ecu what it wants, and it wouldn't have to adapt. or the adaptation would simply fine tune your settings for you. like an SDS auto tune mode
if this is legit, it is the best thing going for the 1.8T, no longer at the mercy of the chip tuners.


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (carbide01)*

It sounds like a system that overrides the injector/timing trigger function at the plugs to the injectors.All running functions are run by the new system and all the secondary functions are run from the stock ECU.This is exactly the system you MK4 guys have been dreaming about.


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## Super1.8T (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: (KOOTER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KOOTER* »_This is exactly the system you MK4 guys have been dreaming about.

I hope you're right!! Wouldn't it be something to build your car the way YOU wanted?!?


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## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: (Super1.8T)*

Bump for my local tuner, you go Rick. And I am fully behind Rick, he is an honest customer oriented tuner who is here for US before his pocket. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (Super1.8T)*

Oh no!run for your life!Its a piggyback!Idiots








You guys been getting your asses kicked by cars running piggybacks for years.When are you going to get a clue??


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## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Piggyback is ecactly what we need!








this is definetly a piggyback system. how else are you going to bypass limp mode on the 1.8t's? 
Oh, whats that I hear? you cant? not without sending a different output signal from the map to the ECU? yea thats what I thought... 
If you are going to sell a system sell it in the category it belongs in.
Im not bashing the product because I think its a great thing, and if it turns out to work, this really could be the best thing for us DBW 1.8t guys have seen yet.





















to hoping this thing actually makes it to market and works well.
just be sure to call it a piggyback because thats what it is.


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## GThunder (Nov 18, 2003)

Damn looks like the world better watch out for the 1.8t tuners out here. Thats really hotttttt!!!!


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (XSiVE)*

Who cares what it is,if it does what its supposed to.
A piggyback could be built that intercepted the crank trigger and throttle position sensor and had its own injector/coil drivers.With a little electronic trickery the stock ecu could be fooled into thinking the injectors and coil are still connected.Bam your done(overly simplified).This would'nt really be a piggyback,or standalone.Thats what I think this system is.


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## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (XSiVE)*

ATTENTION ALL PERSONNEL ATTENTION ALL PERSONNEL:
Wagon number 4 will be loading in at dock number 6. Please step on and get ready for a ride. We will be taking a ride down memory lane and visiting all of the past. 

Sorry but just another bandwagon for people to jump on, and something else to get people's hope up. 



_Modified by turbojeta3 at 8:01 PM 1-27-2004_


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## AkVdub (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (turbojeta3)*









thats all i have to say, wait..... no.... yep, thats all


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (AkVdub)*

I'd be interested in seeing some nitty gritty details. 
So say on my car (AEG) this would take over the coilpack and injectors? What happens to the MAF? 
If this runs the coilpack, injectors based on a MAP sensor, it's basically standalone. I'm down. 
At that point all creature features go bye-bye like idle adaptation, cold start, cruise control. 
Details, preferably before I pick up my timing control device.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (hoTTub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hoTTub* »_Call me a skeptic









werd, i mean if you kepe the stock ecu its piggy right?
i have sds and only thing that doesnt work is water temp gauge
anyways, bleieveing is seeing, hope to see it work, 
nothing liek a pure stand alone tho








good luck


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_~Enhances and compatible with all existing chip tunes!








thats weird?? why would you need a chip? :flame suit on: i just think athts no benefit if youre supposedly getting a "stand alone"


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (D Wiz)*

Atleast the SDS guys are consistant(bash everything that is'nt sds)


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KOOTER* »_Atleast the SDS guys are consistant(bash everything that is'nt sds)









haha LOL honestly i knew it owuld be a matter of time before someone said that LOL
liek i said, imjust "asking" reasons for soem questions liek whats the benefit of working with your current chip
just that a real stand alone isnt hard, poeple are just lazy, 
but im a skpecit, i just remmber the revo hype, id like to see proof, and if it REALLY is what its mad eto be, good!!!


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (D Wiz)*

I agree


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## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_It has an input for an o2 sensor, it could also have an output to show the ECU what it wants. Adaptation be damned. 
Or in another case, your tuning would show the ecu what it wants, and it wouldn't have to adapt. or the adaptation would simply fine tune your settings for you. like an SDS auto tune mode
if this is legit, it is the best thing going for the 1.8T, no longer at the mercy of the chip tuners. 

Thank you. Another bump for good stuff. 
I think this could be the best thing to happen to 1.8Ts in a long time. 
This was produced to show the people what is possible with honest tuners who believe in making 300 BHP 1.8Ts a regular occurance. Believe you me this guy is serious.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (DubGray1.8T)*

piggyback..yeah whatever. You still have great control over your ignition and fueling. 
I wouldn't have announced anything though till you atleast had ONE car running this system and making good to great HP numbers.
But I'll buy a round of







for progress
Jason


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Just a simple question..

_Quote »_while retaining your stock ECU to run everything else, including your tachometer and OBD II functions

So, if the system controls your injectors, then the stock ECU to injector plugs are just dangling, whatever. The stock ECU will fault for injector opens. Which sure retiains OBD2 functions, but you'll still get a CEL/codes. So, it'll retain OBD2 function just to have faults?


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Just a simple question..
So, if the system controls your injectors, then the stock ECU to injector plugs are just dangling, whatever. The stock ECU will fault for injector opens. Which sure retiains OBD2 functions, but you'll still get a CEL/codes. So, it'll retain OBD2 function just to have faults?









The systems harness at the injectors has both female and male ends... so the harness will plug into the injectors and then the stock plugs will attach to the top of the harness.
The price has not yet been determined since we are still in Beta Phase, however it will range somewhere between $750-$900 USD. Hopefully closer to the $750 side. We are trying to make this as cost friendly as possible without compromising quality. 
The VR6 set-up will follow very quickly, most likely within a month or 2 from the original release which is scheduled for June.


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## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (DubGray1.8T)*

Will we still have to use our stock MAF or will it be eliminated?


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Great questions... After discussing these with our friends at Abunai here are some answers: 
(instead of using the quote option, we just wrote out the questions, thanks)
Q. Lets hear more on cost and when the VR6 will be out. Also this will work on OBD1 I hope? 
A. Yes, it will work on OBD 1 
Q. Now if they can provide base maps and design the thing to "learn" (tunes itself, fuel curves, etc) the sky's the limit! 
A. Base maps are provided, and with the datalogging and built in dyno features it is also very easy to make your own or tweak the ones provided. 
Q. It has an input for an o2 sensor, it could also have an output to show the ECU what it wants. Adaptation be damned. 
A. It has an O2 "sim" output for your second O2 sensor, if you somehow "lose" your cat or the insides of it somehow fall out, the O2 sim output takes car of the related CEL. This feature is for off road use only, of course. 
Q. It sounds like a system that overrides the injector/timing trigger function at the plugs to the injectors.All running functions are run by the new system and all the secondary functions are run from the stock ECU.This is exactly the system you MK4 guys have been dreaming about. 
A. You are 100% correct. The system provides connections for the stock ECU so it does not have a clue that it's not driving the injectors or providing timing anymore. It also provides electronic trickery to make sure the ECU inputs don't go out of range, like the MAP sensor, Boost solendoid, and O2 sensors, so the ECU thinks everything is normal and adaptation only helps you. It does not modify the stock MAP sensor signal until it sees it going out of range, and then clamps it. Other than that the stock MAP sensor signal is unmodified. It does however, measure outputs from the stock ECU and uses that information to handle cold start, idle, cruise control, etc. The system has it's own on board 30psi map sensor and uses that and several other inputs to calculate engine load, and generates it's own injector and timing signals from that. 
Q. ~Enhances and compatible with all existing chip tunes! 
thats weird?? why would you need a chip? :flame suit on: i just think thats no benefit if youre supposedly getting a "stand alone" 
A. This is compatible with existing chip tunes, some of which are not quite right for heavily modified engines. The point here is that you don't have to remove your current chip to use the Pro-Tuner, and it can fill in "holes" or optimize a chip tune that don't quite work for your particular setup. No more dynoing, sending the chip back for a tweak, redynoing, sending the chip back, etc...


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## 46_and_2 (Apr 25, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Sounds really nice for dealer visits! If you remain chipless (assuming you can get the same results from this device that you would with a chip) all you would have to do is unplug everything, and pull it out of the engine bay and the dealers wouldn't be the wiser. Very stealth in that respect.
Would also be great for big turbo peeps. No real need for software if you have fully custom rpm based maps for fuel, boost and timing through this device. If this turns out to be what is claimed, the chip tuners will be in a world of hurt, given that this would cover all levels of tuning (chip level: bolt ons and stock turbo, turbo upgrades, turbo plus nos.....)
Hope it comes to fruition...


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## little p (Apr 29, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (46_and_2)*

bump.
adding to my watch list..so i can read this later.


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## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (46_and_2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *46_and_2* »_Sounds really nice for dealer visits! If you remain chipless (assuming you can get the same results from this device that you would with a chip) all you would have to do is unplug everything, and pull it out of the engine bay and the dealers wouldn't be the wiser. Very stealth in that respect.
Would also be great for big turbo peeps. No real need for software if you have fully custom rpm based maps for fuel, boost and timing through this device. If this turns out to be what is claimed, the chip tuners will be in a world of hurt, given that this would cover all levels of tuning (chip level: bolt ons and stock turbo, turbo upgrades, turbo plus nos.....)
Hope it comes to fruition...

It would be very nice if it didn't require any splicing in or cutting wires.


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (RedDevil)*

The chip war is going to end someday. 
Anyways for the average joe, do you think someone wants a system that plugs into your wiring harness etc/ or do you think they want a direct port programmed system.
Ultimately here it is.
WHY DONT THE CHIPTUNERS SELL VIN-LOCKED TUNING SOFTWARE like the rest of the world?
Why? Because they need to get all the $$ they can while they can.
Once the methods of direct port programming are public domain (figured out), they will ruin the market, the tuners will move on to another car etc.
This is why chipping on Honda's is light years ahead of VW.
GREED.
And i won't for a minute say i'm not greedy. If i spent 2 years of long nights hacking the ecu to figure out how it works, i deserve something? I coulda been making cheddah doing something else.
truth.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*

pardon my spelliong, i know its bad, im lazy to goback and fix it, i may be dumb as far as typing, but i could still handle to rig up magnets and some wires, something like this soudns like it belongs in the 1.8T forum, where plug and play is key thing


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (D Wiz)*

Welcome to the new world of piggybacks







These things are evolving to fit the needs and price range of the customers.I've been waiting for a system that controls the outputs,and now its here(happy







)


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_Will we still have to use our stock MAF or will it be eliminated?

im DYING to know.... tell me there is some kind of incorporated MAP so MAF cars dont have to use it?


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## FrankiEBoneZ (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (D Wiz)*

So when can I order?


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## thelumpya2 (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (FrankiEBoneZ)*

This sounds very promising. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
putting on my watched list for later


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (D Wiz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D Wiz* »_
im DYING to know.... tell me there is some kind of incorporated MAP so MAF cars dont have to use it?

If your car will run in limp home mode without the MAF hooked up,thenit will be able to be eliminated(with a CE light).


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Great questions... After discussing these with our friends at Abunai

Abunai?
















http://www.abunai.com
Sounds promising! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*








nice one Andy...
http://www.abunaiworld.com is their actual site , however its under construction. Should be up in a few days.


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Cool, thanks. I'll keep an eye on it. I figured it wasn't a musical group.


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## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Tracking.....


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## vweuroracer (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (mj6234)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## shawny0123 (Jul 23, 2002)

oh, oh no....yep there it is all over my pants


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## johnAWD (Aug 13, 2002)

Need a non-DBW Audi 1.8t test mule?


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## JamieK18T (Jan 14, 2002)

*Re: (johnAWD)*

Well, I guess I will add this to my list of possible options (revo, uni-chip).


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## gruppe5 (May 10, 2003)

*Re: (johnAWD)*

If someone announces that they have a way for you tune your motor without using a chip with a preset program and without having to switch to full stand-alone managment, what the hell is the problem???? Its not a full stand-alone system, so you don't have to remove and replace a bunch of hardware but you seemingly get the benefits of stand-alone, and its not a piggy-back because a piggy back is more or less a slightly user adjustable chip that just plays tricks on your stock ECU. it seem that they are offering damn near full adjustability without going through all of the hardware and installation headaches. Plus, I know that RENNEN has a great reputation and while that is not enough for anyone to purchase this particular product I doubt they are looking to dissapoint, and for those who want more details about the system, they stated that they got the opportunity to use VORTEX introduce this and they took it, more info will follow.







Everyone just relax a little.


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## turbovw18 (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: (gruppe5)*

i'll test it / buy it now... i want to play with it... 
email me


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## Kei78 (Oct 8, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## The Hustler (Oct 24, 2005)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Kei78)*

VR6!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Super1.8T (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Rick, thanks for taking the time to get these answers. The product sounds really promising, and I can't wait to see it. Piggyback: I care 0% if this thing is a piggyback. I don't care what it is if it works as they say it will and will fool the stock senors while working with them. I'm looking for a way to make my car do what I want it to do, screw the stock limits. This is the kind of thing I live for. Wouldn't it be something to be able to tweak your car like I am able to do with the computers I work with, at work.
Perhaps I really can have what's needed to build my 1.8T the way I want, and in my own garage. I think the way things are looking, I'll go as far to say that my 1.8T is the highest potential good I have ever purchased










_Modified by Super1.8T at 3:28 PM 1-29-2004_


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## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Super1.8T)*

thumb up! sounds like a great addition to available aftermarket for VW's. Price is my concern right now


----------



## vdubaholic (Feb 20, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (seanfournier)*















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif














Need I say more?
I cant believe someone would complain about that price


----------



## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (vdubaholic)*

didn't see price earlier... see it now


----------



## Marble (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (seanfournier)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## radgti8v (Feb 28, 1999)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (ATXGTI)*

I hope this thing does work out, VW tuning is way behind the times compared to other makes . OBD1 VR6 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MRballer337 (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (radgti8v)*

bump


----------



## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (radgti8v)*

sounds exactly like hondata.com








good work if its as good of a product.


----------



## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (mrkrad)*

First thing people need to know is this unit works on the output side of the ECU rather than the imput side like most of the other piggybacks I've seen.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*

Since no real details have been said about it, I'll post my take on it. 
It's basically a standalone system. You put it in between the electronics of your ECU and fuel injectors 
MAF = gone. The unit generates a false maf signal based on some general prinicples and shows the ecu adequate values to keep it happy. Generated values are always consistent as to not modify fuel trim. 
The unit uses a MAP sensor and rpm input to calculate fuel trim. With the MAF output to the ecu happy you can do anything you want. Anything. 
Ignition is easy. The ECU won't fight with ingition. I assume this drives the ignition by intercepting the ECU's communication with the ECU. 
Here's where the stock ecu comes into play. 
Cold start. The ecu runs off base maps and enrichens the mixture. The piggyback doesn't interrupt this change. Maybe it lets you tune it? 
Cruise control. If the ecu still have some control over the TPS and fuel crusie control should still work. 
Speedo and tach all work. 
Knock sensors. The unit most likely will not interrupt the function of the knock sensors and allow timing to be pulled. If its being pulled that's bad gas or poor tuning. 
This is all just speculation, or my ideal purchase








Oh, and add about 12 other dumb sensors and assume the same prinicple for the 1.8t


----------



## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Since no real details have been said about it, I'll post my take on it. 
It's basically a standalone system. You put it in between the electronics of your ECU and fuel injectors 
MAF = gone. The unit generates a false maf signal based on some general prinicples and shows the ecu adequate values to keep it happy. Generated values are always consistent as to not modify fuel trim. 
The unit uses a MAP sensor and rpm input to calculate fuel trim. With the MAF output to the ecu happy you can do anything you want. Anything. 
Ignition is easy. The ECU won't fight with ingition. I assume this drives the ignition by intercepting the ECU's communication with the ECU. 
Here's where the stock ecu comes into play. 
Cold start. The ecu runs off base maps and enrichens the mixture. The piggyback doesn't interrupt this change. Maybe it lets you tune it? 
Cruise control. If the ecu still have some control over the TPS and fuel crusie control should still work. 
Speedo and tach all work. 
Knock sensors. The unit most likely will not interrupt the function of the knock sensors and allow timing to be pulled. If its being pulled that's bad gas or poor tuning. 
This is all just speculation, or my ideal purchase








Oh, and add about 12 other dumb sensors and assume the same prinicple for the 1.8t









NOPE.
It intercepts the signals from the ECU to the injectors and changes them based on rpm/map signals.I believe the ignition part is probably done the same way as well.
Your car will run without MAF sensor in most cases(limp home mode),but will throw a CE light.You don't really care about this though if we have total control over fueling/ignition on the output side of the ECU.This method of tuning allows you to keep all your cold start values(modified across the board to match your choice of injectors).The main advantage of this type of piggyback is your not changing the timing when you modify the MAF signal.
This should do anything that a standalone will if you unplug your MAF and O2 sensors to keep the motronic from adapting.You may be able to keep the O2 once it goes to limp home mode though(without adapting).


----------



## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KOOTER* »_
NOPE.
It intercepts the signals from the ECU to the injectors and changes them based on rpm/map signals.I believe the ignition part is probably done the same way as well.
Your car will run without MAF sensor in most cases(limp home mode),but will throw a CE light.You don't really care about this though if we have total control over fueling/ignition on the output side of the ECU.This method of tuning allows you to keep all your cold start values(modified across the board to match your choice of injectors).The main advantage of this type of piggyback is your not changing the timing when you modify the MAF signal.
This should do anything that a standalone will if you unplug your MAF and O2 sensors to keep the motronic from adapting.You may be able to keep the O2 once it goes to limp home mode though(without adapting).

Do you think this applies to OBD-1 style motronic systems as well?


----------



## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (benzivr6)*

For this unit?Yes.

_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_
Do you think this applies to OBD-1 style motronic systems as well?


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*

I wish they would post more information about how it works, cause I am now thoroughly confused... and I run a piggyback now (works perfect)


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (2kjettaguy)*

Here are some more answers to some of the questions.. Again, We will be posting more info on the website in the near future. Thanks for all of your interest, and I will try to keep the information rolling. Just to clear this up... The Pro-Tuner se is a *hybrid* system, meaning that is has characteristics of both Stand Alone and Piggy Back but is neither in its complete form. So we have decided not to call it either, but instead... a hybrid. Thanks

Q. First thing people need to know is this unit works on the output side
of the ECU rather than the imput side like most of the other
piggybacks I've seen.
A. Correct. The fuel control is between the output of the stock ECU
and the injectors. The Pro-Tuner contains it's own injector drivers and
controls them directly.
Q. MAF = gone. The unit generates a false maf signal based on some
general prinicples and shows the
ecu adequate values to keep it happy. Generated values are always
consistent as to not modify fuel trim.
A. The Pro-Tuner does not generate a maf signal. It measures the
injector pulse output from the stock ECU and can increases or decreases
it based on it's own MAP sensor, engine RPM and the load table which you
enter. That way cold start, accel enrichment, idle and cruise control,
temp compensation, etc all continue to work as they should and are just
scaled by the load table. This method compensates for bigger injectors
or raising fuel pressure, lets you fully remap the fuel curves, and
keeps you from having to do the annoying stuff like setting up cold
start or temperature scaling.
Q. Your car will run without MAF sensor in most cases(limp home
mode),but will throw a CE light.You don't really care about this though
if we have total control over fueling/ignition on the output side of the
ECU.This method of tuning allows you to keep all your cold start
values(modified across the board to match your choice of injectors).The
main advantage of this type of piggyback is your not changing the timing
when you modify the MAF signal. This should do anything that a
standalone will if you unplug your MAF and O2 sensors to keep the
motronic from adapting.You may be able to keep the O2 once it goes to
limp home mode though(without adapting).
A. Pretty much true. Although it's probably best to keep your inlet air
temp sensor hooked up to get temp compensation.
Q. Knock sensors. The unit most likely will not interrupt the function
of the knock sensors and allow timing to be pulled. If its being pulled
that's bad gas or poor tuning.
A. Correct, the excellent knock signal processing of the stock ECU is
retained, and this continues to protect your motor from bad gas or
tuning. If your Pro-Tuner map indicates that the timing should be
retarded 3 degrees from stock at 20psi and 5000 RPM, the Pro-Tuner will
do it. If the stock ECU sees knock it is still able to retard the
timing even more. The Pro-Tuner gives you a lot of control, so be
careful when you mess with timing.
Q. Do you think this applies to OBD-1 style motronic systems as well?
A. The Pro-Tuner works for OBD-1 and II systems.


----------



## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Will this work on a FI 2.0 16v 9a _with_ a G60 ECU and wiring harness...or a stock 2.0 16v 9a ECU and harness?


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Cool, that makes more sense. I like it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
You said you are working on a version for the AEG?


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## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

That sounds awesome, my 1 question is the pricing....less than standalone....like 20% less or more like 50-60% less?


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Boragirl03)*

I rule


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## hood (Sep 24, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*

This seems like it is going to change 1.8T tuning forever. I hope the funds are there for me when this thing becomes available.


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## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (hood)*

2.0T is always the last one on the list.


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## Nessal (Nov 24, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (thelumpya2)*

If this is all true...man you guys are making history!
Oh...another thing....can you say VR6T?










_Modified by Nessal at 4:47 AM 2-1-2004_


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## Maverik869 (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Nessal)*

definatly sounds good.. putting this on my watch list! goodluck and keep us posted


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## ced (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Maverik869)*

Sounds excellent Rick, I can't wait to try this out.


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## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (ced)*

the money is burning a hole clean through my wallet, pocket, seat, and is now on the floorboard of my turbo ride... can you please work weekends and give up sleeping to get this thing finished.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (seanfournier)*

If this system is all it is cut out to be it would be GREAT to have another choice for tuning,since Honda guys have so many...........funny though,a lot of guys will get bent out of shape if the CEL comes on,and smog places will not pass you unless you have no check light and all readiness codes set.That is something you should make clear due to the fact that plenty peeps here have to have their car pass smog............If it can do this it would be awesome.Can you also run any size injector,and control knock sensor sensitivity,or is all that still "stock".This would be great for all motronic cars for sure,but I assume tis will work for DBW as well??Just tune a car(VW),make great hp and ET with it,show everybody proof and you will sell some. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## i81b4u (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_smog places will not pass you unless you have no check light and all readiness codes set.That is something you should make clear due to the fact that plenty peeps here have to have their car pass smog............If it can do this it would be awesome. 

Agreed, clean power would be huge. Could the O2 signal be intercepted and modified to use the motronic adaptation to the tuner's advantage? 
You state this will first be offered to 1.8t applications.....specifically DBC, or later ME 7.5 DBW systems (or both)?


----------



## i81b4u (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ 
A. Correct. The fuel control is between the output of the stock ECU
and the injectors. The Pro-Tuner contains it's own injector drivers and
controls them directly.


Ahh, nevermind.


----------



## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (i81b4u)*

My bro was telling me something about the AFC Honda guys are now doing. Something where it bypasses something or the other...he couldn't really explain it. I had sooo many questions. He said it basically hides the boost from the ECU.


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## SAVWaterWagens (Jul 5, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Nessal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nessal* »_
Oh...another thing....can you say VR6T?









Yeah we want one for the 24v VR6 too


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (SAVWaterWagens)*

Price???


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## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (nuugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nuugen* »_Price???









Did you read the entire post? I think not.


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (DubGray1.8T)*

**The price has not yet been determined since we are still in Beta Phase, however it will range somewhere between $750-$900 USD. Hopefully closer to the $750 side. We are trying to make this as cost friendly as possible without compromising quality**
Duh. I am little bit of a speed reader sometimes, missed this the first time around!!


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Since it has it's own injector drivers, does it have the ability to control low-impedance injectors as well?
Low impedance injectors can be had in much bigger sizes than high imp. injectors, and open/close faster too, which helps with idle control when running larger injectors.
Also, assuming it alters the ECUs output to the coils, do you have a way to get around the rev limit and raise it?
Sounds good, but I'm not holding my breath










_Modified by xr4tic at 7:33 PM 2-5-2004_


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_Since it has it's own injector drivers, does it have the ability to control low-impedance injectors as well?
Low impedance injectors can be had in much bigger sizes than high imp. injectors, and open/close faster too, which helps with idle control when running larger injectors.
Also, assuming it alters the ECUs output to the coils, do you have a way to get around the rev limit and raise it?
Sounds good, but I'm not holding my breath









_Modified by xr4tic at 7:33 PM 2-5-2004_

The Pro-Tuner se will work with both high and low impedance injectors.
Thanks for not holding your breath....we'd hate to be responsible for a lack of 02 to your brain.


----------



## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

High AND Low impedance? Really? Well, I do know how they both work and I find that very interesting. So you must had two different drivers for this. Its not like the same unit will work with both types. A person would have to choose one or the other at time of ordering. right?


----------



## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (i81b4u)*

Just by what this unit does,I don't think it even knows what its hooked up to(DBW or DBC).The output signals to the coils and injectors will be the same on either car so is should be fine for either.

_Quote, originally posted by *i81b4u* »_
Agreed, clean power would be huge. Could the O2 signal be intercepted and modified to use the motronic adaptation to the tuner's advantage? 
You state this will first be offered to 1.8t applications.....specifically DBC, or later ME 7.5 DBW systems (or both)?


----------



## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*

Do the 1.8ts batch fire the coils or are they true sequential fire?The reason I'm asking is if they are in fact batch fired it,the same unit would work on the 2l MK4 motors as well.
Now I know they have 1 coil per cyl,but most cars that have this are fireed as a wasted spark.


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*

If this thing happens, I'll be one happy little boy. 
This will enable me to ****e on local 16vs with my chunky butted MK4. 
E50 here I come


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (seanfournier)*

Most of the stand-alone units will run both, and I don't think they need software settings (I could be wrong though)
With the right circuitry, you could run both types (but not at the same time, obviously)
Ideally, it would be hardware auto-select to avoid IO error









_Quote, originally posted by *seanfournier* »_High AND Low impedance? Really? Well, I do know how they both work and I find that very interesting. So you must had two different drivers for this. Its not like the same unit will work with both types. A person would have to choose one or the other at time of ordering. right?


----------



## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

bump for an interessting product


----------



## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Q. MAF = gone. The unit generates a false maf signal based on some
general prinicples and shows the
ecu adequate values to keep it happy. Generated values are always
consistent as to not modify fuel trim.
A. The Pro-Tuner does not generate a maf signal. It measures the
injector pulse output from the stock ECU and can increases or decreases it based on it's own MAP sensor, engine RPM and the load table which you enter. That way cold start, accel enrichment, idle and cruise control,
temp compensation, etc all continue to work as they should and are just scaled by the load table. This method compensates for bigger injectors or raising fuel pressure, lets you fully remap the fuel curves, and keeps you from having to do the annoying stuff like setting up cold start or temperature scaling.


So it basicly just is a "manual and additional" RPM and loadspecific fueltrim-controll.
We can add or substract injection time from the time the ECU provides.
how it works is that it measures how long the motronic requested injectiontime is, then it finds RPM/load-specific values from user-map, then add or substract these to the next injection cycle?
The MAP-sensor included is actually only for the protuner to determine what load the cars running at?
This way we can also compensate for new ECU maf-readings because of a larger housing, and like you say larger injectors. 
But keeping the maf is best, so that the motronic still will do its best to make those values it "think" applies best, and still get temp/altitude-compensation.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Q. Knock sensors. The unit most likely will not interrupt the function
of the knock sensors and allow timing to be pulled. If its being pulled
that's bad gas or poor tuning.
A. Correct, the excellent knock signal processing of the stock ECU is
retained, and this continues to protect your motor from bad gas or
tuning. If your Pro-Tuner map indicates that the timing should be
retarded 3 degrees from stock at 20psi and 5000 RPM, the Pro-Tuner will
do it. If the stock ECU sees knock it is still able to retard the
timing even more. The Pro-Tuner gives you a lot of control, so be
careful when you mess with timing.


This is ok! Its good to know that these excelent fuctions on the motronic still are "intact". 
What I did not understand is HOW the pro-tuner actually controls ignition...
Is this same principle as for the injectors? Measuring the timing point, then adding or substracting time from this point if specified?
Also, I would like a confirment that I've understood the o2-sensor possibilities correctly. For an 1-sensor car...
Can we remove the stock sensor, replace it with a 5-wire wideband connected to the Pro-tuner, then connect an external output on the pro-tuner to the Ecu, so that the ECU will also will be happy? 
Is this external output just a simulated signal that is the same no matter what AF-ratio the wideband reads, or will it be a correct representation? 
Will the measured AF-ratio from the wideband be used for modifying fueltrim, or is this for logging only, so we'll have to finetune fueltrim ourselves?
For 1.8T with n-DBW, we will not need all inputs/outputs, right? 
Like the MAP-sensor. I do not have this on my A4...
Really interessting product! 
But I believe understanding what it actually does is a requirement for using it correctly and exploiting its potensials?
Thanks. 
MrBond.


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (MrBond)*

The O2 sensor output is a "sim" similar to aftermarket O2 simulators that trick the stock ECU into thinking that the cat is still in place for the post cat O2 sensor. All the sim output does is eliminates the CEL caused by removing or punching the cat, which we don't condone unless for racing, of course.. 
The factory wideband O2 should stay in place, and it's outputs must be processed by the factory ECU for it's output to become meaningful to a person. You can put an extra aftermarket wideband O2 sensor into your exhaust manifold or header that comes with a signal conditioner, while keeping the stock wideband in the pipe and connected . 
The aftermarket wideband O2 sensor's signal conditioner output can be connected to, displayed, and datalogged by the ProTuner
The connections will be slightly different for DBW and non-DBW cars due to the MAP sensor vs. Power Stage Unit set-ups. However, it will not be drastic by any means. The Pro-Tuner se will come with a complete manual for installation for both setups.
Thanks


----------



## Spencedog (Oct 11, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

bump


----------



## TURBOPHIL (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KOOTER* »_Do the 1.8ts batch fire the coils or are they true sequential fire?The reason I'm asking is if they are in fact batch fired it,the same unit would work on the 2l MK4 motors as well.
Now I know they have 1 coil per cyl,but most cars that have this are fireed as a wasted spark.

I was thinking the same thing also, If so we should be able to wire it up to any a3 or a4 8v, especially if you wire the pro tuner after the factory ecu.


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KOOTER)*

The 1.8Ts run full sequential fuel and spark.

_Quote, originally posted by *KOOTER* »_Do the 1.8ts batch fire the coils or are they true sequential fire?The reason I'm asking is if they are in fact batch fired it,the same unit would work on the 2l MK4 motors as well.
Now I know they have 1 coil per cyl,but most cars that have this are fireed as a wasted spark.


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

this this should come out already...LOL


----------



## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

yeah, is there a date for it to be released?


----------



## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (seanfournier)*

yes read back in the post.


----------



## KeithVH (Mar 25, 1999)

*Re: (DubGray1.8T)*

Gotta watch this one.


----------



## Super1.8T (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: (KeithVH)*

Rick, just wondering if there's any new news on the Protuner? I am looking forward to this, especially the ability to run peak and hold injectors.


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: (Super1.8T)*

Rick post some progress already....LOL.


----------



## kikbak82 (Feb 17, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Sounds familiar to the zcontrol or zemulator used for the 300zx (z32's). But the difference is is that it doesn't replace the ecu like the above mentioned. hmm interesting.. looks like the tuning world is getting abit more involved into chip tuning in a sense of real time programming.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

Pro-Tuner se is still in Beta Phase right now. Our 337 is currently under testing evaluation. We want a variety of testing - from a stock application, to a KO4 setup, to a T3/T04 setup - so that we can see the gains with all of these different turbo applications that are being run most commonly. The 1.8T models should be ready to roll by late June/early July as it stands right now. Then the 2.0 and VR6 models shortly after that. We are hoping to have these available for sale at our Vendors Area at WATERFEST this summer, but its too early to make promises at this point. I will keep you updated as we get closer.
Thanks again for your patience and please keep in mind that we are testing a variety of setups and going over everything twice to make sure that when this product is offered, it will be 100% ready-to-go. We are also working with Abunai to create a detailed instruction manual to go with the Pro-Tuner se to make installation and understanding the product as easy as possible. 
Thanks again for your interest, we are very excited to have this product available to the public to improve tuning and the get the absolute most out of our turbo applications.


----------



## houstonspeedfreek (Sep 24, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Interesting, I'd like to see the VR6 setup when it is released.


----------



## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

So this system needs input from the ECU to work? Just want to make sure.


----------



## MyFast_1220 (Sep 5, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Shameless plug for Rennen,
They do great work and have a great reputation for a reason. Rick is running a top notch VW operation and this should be great for all of us. Keep up the good work!


----------



## little p (Apr 29, 2000)

*Re: (danwink)*

update?


----------



## stevenichols (Oct 9, 2002)

*Re: (little p)*

Chris at Fast Enough has been using a similar module. Allows you to run any injector, and it also has timing control.










_Modified by stevenichols at 4:42 AM 3-22-2004_


----------



## rinkerw (Mar 7, 2002)

*Re: (stevenichols)*

So will the Pro Tuner SE have built-in boost control?


----------



## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: (rinkerw)*

i just talked to rick at rennen this thing wil be so awesome as it is the perfect mix of standalone and piggy back count me in fo sho, now where did i leave the money....
also it looks to closer to 850-900usd but well worht it!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (rinkerw)*

Yes, Pro-Tuner se does have built-in Boost Control
Update: The final version of the prototype enclosures have just been finished being screen printed ..and are on the way to us. We will continue testing and should have more finalized results within the next 2 months. Again, we are not expecting these to be ready for retail production until June-July. Thanks for your patience... We will keep you updated.


----------



## Super1.8T (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Thank you for the update http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (Super1.8T)*

The prototype enclosures are finished. Just thought I would give you all a preview.
Thanks


















_Modified by [email protected] at 5:41 PM 3-31-2004_


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## s8n (Nov 20, 2002)

Hi Rick,
Will this work with the Audi S3/TT Quattro cars down here in Australia?
This seems like the perfect solution to mate to a ATP Turbo Kit for my car to compete against things like the upcoming APR stage III which will cost an arm and a leg!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (s8n)*

I dont see any reason why it wouldn't work on your 1.8T's. If anything, you may have different connection points to the unit, but I dont see how it would prevent the system from working the same. I cannot tell you 100% at this point because we are not testing on any S3's, but I will look into it further.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The prototype enclosures are finished. Just thought I would give you all a preview.
Thanks

















_Modified by [email protected] at 5:41 PM 3-31-2004_

What year/make/model/engine harness does that connect to?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Andy,
Its a connector for the Pro-Tuner se harness that will then plug into the injector tops etc..


----------



## s8n (Nov 20, 2002)

Well, as long as the unit connects to the US TT 225HP, it will connect to our S3 which is the same car with a different shell


----------



## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (s8n)*

All i have to say is mmmm. Things are getting closer.


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: (DubGray1.8T)*

when?????


----------



## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

bump!! went and saw the rennin crew on monday, things are lookin very good , i am so in on this for the 2.ot!!


----------



## German VR6 (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: (EvilVento2.oT)*

how good will this be for a vr6??


----------



## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tybolltt* »_when?????

I dare not answer this I will let Rick when he has the time. I was giving an update LOL.


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: (DubGray1.8T)*

Could you give me a number to call then? 
I'm about to pop and trust me you don't want my man goo on you. LOL


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

oww i likey, can't wait to see how much it will be http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

http://WWW.Rennen.US
Look there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

Late july, or early august is the earliest we'll see this thing and I doubt we'll see it then anyway. 
Time for to stop day dreaming, and start making some cream.


----------



## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

I’m new to this standalone stuff.... 
1.	Can you retard & advance timing 
2.	Fuel can you control that?
3.	What about air/fuel ratio how live of fast accurate can it read these values
4.	What is the price on the unit?
Oh yeah since it’s like a piggy back system would it give a cleaner look instead of having wires everywhere


----------



## black2001aww (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: (StreetRyda)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif To Rick and Rennen, one of the only tuners in Maine who actually listen to the people. Thanks for all the hard work guys. Can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## stiffler359 (Dec 11, 2003)

bump


----------



## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

when is this thing going to be available?


----------



## VR6 Oh my (Jan 6, 2002)

*Re: (StreetRyda)*

I'm completely stoked to hear about a new standalone set-up...and especially one that is this simple and can control so much...
But i really don't understand why these companies realease this info while their still in the development stages...and not when it's ready for sale. I mean i can't see Rennen only testing the waters to see
what kind of interest this set-up is going to have...and then decide to go through with the program if the interest is there. 
I think it puts a sour taste in people mouths and they'll get impatient if it gets dragged out too long...so i just don't see the purpose of making this thread 6+ months in advance of the release date...
Just my .02 cents


----------



## blackman'sVW (May 6, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (DubGray1.8T)*

Sorry, I just had a long day. just lookin for a cool product like this Thank you


_Modified by blackman'sVW at 1:25 AM 5-8-2004_


----------



## dvs18t (Jul 18, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (blackman'sVW)*

any new word on this product or is it dead in the water?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (dvs18t)*

Hey guys.... Thanks again for your patience. As you can undoubtedly imagine, creating a product like this takes time. I can tell you that this product has been on a car and has run the car with the fuel and boost programming very well. And now currenlty in the stages now of perfecting ignition/timing and making small changes to the software. 
Our next goal is to have a complete running system on a car or two at our booth at Waterfest for everyone to see how it operates and have some dyno sheets posted. Please understand that we will NOT release this product until it is 100%. Also a manual is currently being written for easier installation. We are still shooting for a July release, but it may end up being more like August. We are doing everything possible to make sure that your patience will be rewarded with a great product. 
As far as releasing info about the product early... it was not a feeler post, it was to let the public know that we were working on something that would help tuners run DBW (and DBC) cars at their Maximum Potential. We had no intentions to get everyone worked up months in advance, we simply wanted you all to know that it was a work in progress, which is why I gave tentative dates for release as soon as I could.
Thanks again,
Rick


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Awesome. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (VDUBNDizzy)*

Will the unit come with base maps for different MAF/injector combos? What year car/turbo/injectors/MAF/boost is it running on? Got any teaser dyno #s for us?


----------



## A2 16v Gli (Oct 14, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (mj6234)*

def interested!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (A2 16v Gli)*

Just keep us updated as to any advancements or setbacks that way we don't keep our hopes up for something that is going to take two years to come out.


----------



## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

bump


----------



## German VR6 (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: (StreetRyda)*

bumpy i want it


----------



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Will the High/Low Boost switch input be usable for nitrous/NA switching? for insatnce, if I want to run advanced timing off the juice, but have it switch to retarded timing using a nitrous arming switch?


----------



## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

bump when is this thing coming out?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (GTTechnics)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTTechnics* »_Will the High/Low Boost switch input be usable for nitrous/NA switching? for insatnce, if I want to run advanced timing off the juice, but have it switch to retarded timing using a nitrous arming switch?

Yes it will.

As for an update.... Changes are being made in the software currently to perfect running conditions and ignition control. 
For those of you that dont know the process of creating a new product like this, I'll give you some insight. Basically we have to test the product carefully on a vehicle on the dyno, log the data, see what is working flawlessly and see where the glitches are. Then we go back and make changes to the software to get better results on the test runs, remove the glitches, and run the car again. This goes on constantly until no more glitches are found. Once the product is solid and running the car at its peak it hits daily driving testing. We will run it on 3-4 cars for a few weeks and try all kinds of settings and maps to make sure everything works in everyday situations.... from 5psi to 30psi, from lean to rich conditions (not too lean of course







) and experiment with the inputs by feeding a wideband 02, N20, Hi/Lo Boost, Launch Control, etc... again to make sure things are all in working order and that Pro-Tuner is controlling these features consistantly.
Then...............and only then............ will it be released for public sale. I cant stress enough that I would rather have the product as close to 100% as possible before its release, to keep customer satisfaction as its best.
Thanks again for your interest and patience during these next few months.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Awesome. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

So how does this unit get around the MAF maxing out?
This may not be as big of a problem for the DBW stuff, but the nonDBW units max out very easily and burn up.
Will this unit be able to operate correctly when the MAF (or other sensors/parameters) max out?


----------



## racerx17x (Jan 28, 2002)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

from what i understand this is going to be a map based unit. u will ditch the maf for a more tuner friendly map system http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .


----------



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (racerx17x)*

I may have missed this somewhere, but will this be able to get rid of my speed/rev limiter? Will it come with any recommended base maps for common setups? I'm trying to avoid buying a chip as well as this if there would be no advantage to having both.


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (racerx17x)*


_Quote, originally posted by *racerx17x* »_from what i understand this is going to be a map based unit. u will ditch the maf for a more tuner friendly map system http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . 

Nope, from page 3 of this thread:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Q. MAF = gone. The unit generates a false maf signal based on some
general prinicples and shows the
ecu adequate values to keep it happy. Generated values are always
consistent as to not modify fuel trim.
A. The Pro-Tuner does not generate a maf signal. It measures the
injector pulse output from the stock ECU and can increases or decreases
it based on it's own MAP sensor, engine RPM and the load table which you
enter. That way cold start, accel enrichment, idle and cruise control,
temp compensation, etc all continue to work as they should and are just
scaled by the load table. This method compensates for bigger injectors
or raising fuel pressure, lets you fully remap the fuel curves, and
keeps you from having to do the annoying stuff like setting up cold
start or temperature scaling.


On my nonDBW Audi A4, when my 3" MAF housing maxed out, the ECU cranked the injectors wide open.
This was happening at 5000 RPM on my ABA 20v, if I was running a stock MAF, it would have been easily maxed by 4000RPM.
And even if the Pro-Tuner could compensate for it, you'll still be burning MAF sensors out at a pretty fast rate (I paid $250 for my last MAF)
So even though the Pro-Tuner is map-based, the ECU still retains the stock MAF, which is still the weak-link of the nonDBW system.


----------



## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

you should wait for an update


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

And yet another nonDBW question:
The nonDBW systems have a max injection time of 16.32ms, whereas the DBW systems can run much higher (29ms in some cases)
Will the Pro-Tuner allow higher injection on-times with a nonDBW system?


----------



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

So this system _completely_ ditches the MAF? Also, if a mk4 converted from DBW to DBC in the future will the unit be flexible enough to be used with the different ECU's without having to buy a different version of the controller? For those who haven't figured it out I'm trying to figure out how suitable this would be for an ITB setup.


----------



## GTi Punk (Jun 20, 2002)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*

omg, i cant wait to see the final results and pricing/applications. this is great stuff! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTTechnics* »_I may have missed this somewhere, but will this be able to get rid of my speed/rev limiter? Will it come with any recommended base maps for common setups?

It will not remove speed/rev limiter, but you can run a chipped ECU with Pro-Tuner.

_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_And yet another nonDBW question:
The nonDBW systems have a max injection time of 16.32ms, whereas the DBW systems can run much higher (29ms in some cases)
Will the Pro-Tuner allow higher injection on-times with a nonDBW system?

Yes it will.

_Quote »_So this system completely ditches the MAF?

We're working that, not set in stone yet...but thats one of our main goals currently under testing.


----------



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

Are your projection dates pushed back?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

Still looking at late Aug/Sept for production, maybe a week or two later due to the new challenge of eliminating the MAF.... however, we should have a full prototype running on one of our cars at our booth for Waterfest. It will be well worth the extra wait if we are able to successfuly remove the MAF altogether, in my opinion. I'll make sure to continue updates as they are made.
Thanks,
Rick


----------



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*

BTW- I assume that idle RPM is adjustable with this unit as well?


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

If you're looking for a knowledgeable nonDBW Beta-tester, let me know









_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Still looking at late Aug/Sept for production, maybe a week or two later due to the new challenge of eliminating the MAF.... however, we should have a full prototype running on one of our cars at our booth for Waterfest. It will be well worth the extra wait if we are able to successfuly remove the MAF altogether, in my opinion. I'll make sure to continue updates as they are made.
Thanks,
Rick


----------



## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

bump


----------



## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re:*

hurry please


----------



## DaDocDa (Jul 4, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

This product looks Great. Will you have the Gt28rs as a base map? How hard is the install? Are U taking any pre sell orders?


----------



## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: Re: (seanfournier)*

good question about the presell orders! you've got a buyer here...


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: (seanfournier)*

First off... thanks to everyone that came by our vendor area to see the Pro-Tuner Demonstration at Waterfest. We had a great turnout and were able to show alot of you the features of Pro-Tuner on one of our Test Cars - 337 GT28RS. We are still plugging away trying to get this done ASAP. 
As far as base maps go... we will most likely be able to send you a base setup for your application, its in the works, along with the instruction manual as we speak.
As far as Pre-Orders.....absolutely.... as soon as we know production has started and everything is finalized and being mass produced, we will start taking orders. I will be sure to notify all of you when this happens. Thanks again for all of your support and patience http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Rick
(Edited for spelling error)


_Modified by [email protected] at 2:26 PM 7-20-2004_


----------



## KrautFed (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*

Rick,
It was nice to meet you and the whole Rennen crew at WaterFest (this is the light brown/blonde shaggy haired guy in Hotel #1). We appreciate the help when one of our crew had map sensor wire problems.
I got to see the Pro-Tuner SE in person, and I must say that it is looking nice. This is a very promising setup and I am anxious to see it being released. The DBW guys are needing something like this.
~Joe


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: (KrautFed)*

Joe-
Thanks for the kind words, it was nice meeting you, Steve and the rest of your crew...and glad to hear we were able to help out. I'm sure you would have done the same. 
Thanks for the positive feedback, we're as anxious as everyone else to get this released. Hope to meet up again sometime.
-Rick


----------



## Old_Skool (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This post has been authorized by [email protected]

It’s hybrid design offers the best of both worlds. You have complete control over fuel, ignition, and boost to over 30psi as in a standalone, while retaining your stock ECU to run everything else, including your tachometer and *OBD II functions.*

Best of all, the pricing will be much less expensive than your current Stand Alone Management. Pro-Tuner se initial production is designed for the 1.8T engine (both cable and wire driven) for initial production and *will have VR6 and 2.0 versions released *shortly there after.

As i underlined 2 important things on the quote of the main post, my question lies here. I am doing a 2.0 8V in my rocco... runing all the aba's wiring, but its a OBD-I motor... 
Will this thing be made to run a OBD-I? It only points out for OBD-II's


----------



## Old_Skool (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Old_Skool)*

wow, did this thread just die? *5 Days* and no response by anybody let alone rennen










_Modified by Old_Skool at 5:20 AM 7-28-2004_


----------



## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Old_Skool)*

dude, this thread is like the energizer bunny, it NEVER dies...
I'm like going insane waiting for this product to be released. I want it so bad because chips just don't cut it for me at the levels I wanna play at.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

so Rick,
It has been 6 months since you guys went 'BETA'. Any reason that it's taken you this long?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Old_Skool)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Old_Skool* »_wow, did this thread just die? *5 Days* and no response by anybody let alone rennen








_Modified by Old_Skool at 5:20 AM 7-28-2004_

Sorry, we have been very busy, and I am the only one here that checks this thread periodically. Yes, it should work with OBD I applications like the one your describing, however we have not yet tested a 2.0T application, because our initial push is for the 1.8T setups. There will be testing for the 2.0T as soon as we are 100% with both DBC and DBW 1.8T's. And then on to VR6-T's. 
*Is there a reason why we have been in 'BETA' for 6 months?...... *
absolutely..... its like I have said consistantly on this thread, we will not move to production until the product is 100% finished. In this case , we have had some set backs due to a decision to try and eliminate the MAF completely for better tuning options. This came in the middle-to-end of the software development. In which case, you need to take 2 steps back to take 1 forward. To be honest, I have no control over the actual software development of this product and how quickly it gets finished, but I will tell you that these guys that were hired for the development of this product are brilliant and have been working endless hours to get this finished asap. We want this product to be out as much as all of you.
Thanks,
Rick


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Thanks Rick.


----------



## extremsplvr6 (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (VDUBNDizzy)*

ETA?
6months,1yr,..........?


----------



## Old_Skool (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (extremsplvr6)*

well i hope it comes out in the next 6months for the OBD-I ABA 2.0 8V's. I got a t3 and an urge to build it asap. Nice to beable to have some of those options on your piggy-back that a normal chip cant do.


----------



## volcom1875 (Feb 1, 2004)

im gonna try to tune with splitsecond but when that protuner comes out , rick , im gonna be buying that lil boy !


----------



## dvs18t (Jul 18, 2003)

*Re: (volcom1875)*

bump TTT any new words about this thing?


----------



## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: Re: (seanfournier)*

What a tease


----------



## L8apex1 (Apr 22, 2003)

can I mention once more....can't wait for this









Rick let us know asap when it's avail (we know you will!!)


----------



## DaDocDa (Jul 4, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Bump for more info?


----------



## extremsplvr6 (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_What a tease


----------



## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: Re: (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_What a tease


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: (RedDevil)*

Hey guys... I just want to confirm that we are still making forward progress with Pro-Tuner se. Most recently testing on the Ignition/Timing control and elimination of the MAF. Things are looking great. We have invested alot into this program, and we are not turning back, as some have been speculating. I realize we are behind schedule and people are anxious for the product to be released. Believe me when I say....!*SO ARE WE*!








We appreciate your continued patience while this program gets better and better each day. I will do my best to keep you up to date as we get closer and closer to the production date. As for a solid completion date... I can't give that to you yet. As soon as I can, I will. Be assured of that.


----------



## DaDocDa (Jul 4, 2003)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*

This is the last peice to my big turbo puzzle. Gotta Have it.


----------



## VWJTI1.8T (Oct 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: (DaDocDa)*

Rick
I'm just joining in on this thread after being gone for like 6 months I was curious if you have a ballpark price for this


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: Re: (VWJTI1.8T)*

This certainly looks like it could be the ultimate solution to everyone's boosted dub problems. 
Bump for a great product..................................if it works.


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Re: (JETTSET)*

Autronic for obd1 cars


----------



## claytski (Oct 21, 2003)

*Re: Re: (Bad Habit)*

well, you must have come a long ways. like miles since waterfest. when we all saw ricks 337 run like **** there on that, it instantly turned me off. it was hesitating and shooting 4 foot flames all seconds apart. in my eyes, a bandaid.


----------



## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: Re: (claytski)*


----------



## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: (claytski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *claytski* »_well, you must have come a long ways. like miles since waterfest. when we all saw ricks 337 run like **** there on that, it instantly turned me off. it was hesitating and shooting 4 foot flames all seconds apart. in my eyes, a bandaid.

i missed that one. but i will be no guinea pig, i'll wait some time after it comes out. for now it is my haltech and split sec for me.


----------



## DubGray1.8T (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Re: (claytski)*

I will assure you that any issues it may have had if any [I don't know you just say it did] lay in the base [not Pro Tuner hiccups] programming







. seems to run great around here http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .




_Modified by DubGray1.8T at 11:50 PM 9-5-2004_


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: (claytski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *claytski* »_well, you must have come a long ways. like miles since waterfest. when we all saw ricks 337 run like **** there on that, it instantly turned me off. it was hesitating and shooting 4 foot flames all seconds apart. in my eyes, a bandaid.

I'm guessing you must have come by our booth towards the first part of the day when we were still having issues getting the car running right. I will not spend the next 5 minutes trying to justify a BETA program, however I will say that after about 15 minutes of trying to figure out the problem...it took me 15 seconds with the VAG-COM to realize that the MAF had just gone bad and as soon as we unplugged the MAF and got the car up to temp, it was running excellent. This is another reason we have extended testing in order to eliminate the MAF. Had you come over and asked why the car was running as it was, I would have explained it to you. Regardless of that... Pro-Tuner was in *BETA* like I explained to everyone that stopped and actually took the time to ask questions and it was running even better than I expected it to. Had the program been all done and perfect....I would have been selling them at the show.
And by the way......my car always shoots 4 foot flames








Thanks for the feedback. More updates coming soon.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: (VWJTI1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWJTI1.8T* »_Rick
I'm just joining in on this thread after being gone for like 6 months I was curious if you have a ballpark price for this
sorry for the late response. $899.00 range


----------



## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_sorry for the late response. $899.00 range 

i WASN'T TOO FAR OFF, I WAS GUESSING $799.


----------



## Super1.8T (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_And by the way......my car always shoots 4 foot flames









Hey, I want to shoot 4 foot flames too!!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thanks for the updates Rick. Can't wait 'till this thing is out. I'm getting real jealous at the Honda guys using the Hondata equipment.


----------



## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Super1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Super1.8T* »_
Hey, I want to shoot 4 foot flames too!!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thanks for the updates Rick. Can't wait 'till this thing is out. I'm getting real jealous at the Honda guys using the Hondata equipment.

agreed


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## 0027gti (May 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: (Boragirl03)*

you will have my $900 as soon as this come out! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: Re: (Boragirl03)*

I can't wait until this is a reality.
Hope to get it over the winter


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## DaDocDa (Jul 4, 2003)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*

How is the progress going and will the protuner have room for more than one map. My buddies Utech for his wrx has like 7 positions for maps. He has a conservitve map and an agressive one pluse he was able to get valet mode ( Apr...ect)and security.


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## VDUB-IRC (Dec 28, 2000)

*Re: Re: (DaDocDa)*

is this gonna be available for the digi1 g60 as well?


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## Gavster (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: (VDUB-IRC)*

id really like to see this for my vr...please do a vr kit next!


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Gavster)*

Ok...here's some good news.
If all goes as planned, which is the current situation.. when we release Pro-Tuner it should work on all Bosch Fuel Injected 4cyl Models... which means all you 2.0 T and G-60 guys and others should be all set. I cant say this 100% right now, because we are focused on the 1.8T and have not tested the other models... but it should really be all in the same. Also, it will not take long at all for the VR6 T system to be released after the 4cyl model is available, so hang in there.


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## MRballer337 (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Ok...here's some good news.
If all goes as planned, which is the current situation.. when we release Pro-Tuner it should work on all Bosch Fuel Injected 4cyl Models... which means all you 2.0 T and G-60 guys and others should be all set. I cant say this 100% right now, because we are focused on the 1.8T and have not tested the other models... but it should really be all in the same. Also, it will not take long at all for the VR6 T system to be released after the 4cyl model is available, so hang in there. 

when are you guys going to release the pro-tuner?


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## Gavster (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*

Thats awesome...Im a big fan of what you gusy are doing. This will be a great choice as a vr6 owner...being that its either chip tuning or 1500+ on a standalone that can be/is difficult to interface w/ stock ecu functions...please keep us vr6 guys in the picture...im getting to the point where chips wont cut it


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## DaDocDa (Jul 4, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

any more info?


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (DaDocDa)*

I posted this under another employees name, then deleted towrite under my own name (for all you that have this on your watch list...sorry for the double post)
I appologize, but I dont have any relevant updates to tell you at this point. Fuel, Boost, and all the inputs are working 100%. We are focused on timing and elimination of the MAF at this point. What may happen , in order to get the product out there asap, is that we may release the product without the MAF bypass for the time being and then be able to send the additional equipment to incorporate that shortly after. Which is why we have been focused mostly on contolling timing in the past 3-4 weeks. I cannot give you a date yet, again I appologize, we are working as diligently as possible to get this done ASAP.
Thanks
Rick


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## ryangreg (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Whens the release date http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ What may happen , in order to get the product out there asap, is that we may release the product without the MAF bypass for the time being and then be able to send the additional equipment to incorporate that shortly after. Which is why we have been focused mostly on contolling timing in the past 3-4 weeks. I cannot give you a date yet, again I appologize, we are working as diligently as possible to get this done ASAP.
Thanks
Rick


souns like a good idea


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## GTI RB (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Boragirl03)*

Just read this thread for the first time. Must say this looks like a very promisiong product. For all thoose jumping on these guys for still being in Beta stage, my guess is none of you are Computer Science or Hardware Engineers. The developement of the software alone is a task in itself, then tack on the random nature of tuning a high boost FI setup. In projects like this one tiny little glitch can delay a project for months, all the exception handeling and other stuff they have to code takes a lot of time and then the testing has to be even more rigorous to make sure the software is actually proccessing the I/O correctly.







for the work you guys are doing, its about time someone stepped it up in the VW community.


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## seanfournier (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (GTI RB)*

I concur. Take your time and get it right. You aren't going to lose sales by it taking a long time to make perfect.
My company was/is developing a GPS vehicle tracking system (from ground up) better than anyone else out there and it has taken a very long time but you can't beat perfect.
BTW, will this product work on my Smart Fortwo?


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## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (GTI RB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTI RB* »_Just read this thread for the first time. Must say this looks like a very promisiong product. For all thoose jumping on these guys for still being in Beta stage, my guess is none of you are Computer Science or Hardware Engineers. The developement of the software alone is a task in itself, then tack on the random nature of tuning a high boost FI setup. In projects like this one tiny little glitch can delay a project for months, all the exception handeling and other stuff they have to code takes a lot of time and then the testing has to be even more rigorous to make sure the software is actually proccessing the I/O correctly.







for the work you guys are doing, its about time someone stepped it up in the VW community.

I completely agree, but I also know a lot of people feel that if the product isn't close to finished then they do not want to read about it. That's why sometimes it is great to take that extra precaution when it comes to advertising a product...meaning, waiting a little longer to advertise it.


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## HighPSI (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Boragirl03)*

Looks promising...keeping an eye on this.


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## Gavster (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (HighPSI)*

im gonna hold out for this for my vr....however long thta may be...the though of plug n play makes me very excited


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## 04RSR32 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Gavster)*

This sounds great. I was planning on a chip or similar for next year after i visit the tax man.








i just read this entire thread and i can fully understand these guys taking there time. I work one of the biggest telecom companies in the US working on fiber optics for long distance. I get to work on big expensisve POS's everday because someone didn't test it thuroughly and they have problems with software glitches and faulty equipment that we have to deal with. This equipment gets tested and retested but still has problems because some rushed it and needed it NOW. It can be as simple as a cooling issue for a bay of equipment or software grimlens. this is alot different than a car but still similar in the process of getting things done. trust me, if its taking longer it only means that they are perfecting there product. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
can't wait to see the final product. this is now on the top of my list of possibilities.


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## Old_Skool (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

hope this thing comes out soon, and specialy the 2.0 8v aba version... i'm dying here!


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## extremsplvr6 (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Old_Skool)*

update??





















http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## Maverik869 (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (extremsplvr6)*

for some odd reason i think this will never be finalized...







i belive it was suppose to be ready in the begining of the summer


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Maverik869)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Maverik869* »_for some odd reason i think this will never be finalized...







i belive it was suppose to be ready in the begining of the summer


Well.... the truth is, we have so much time and money into this that I can guaruntee it will come to fruition. However, things are obviously taking longer than expected. I can't appologize for that, because like I have said in the past.. We will not release the product until its fully functional. I do appologize, however, for releasing information about Pro-Tuner se as early as I did. I was expecting most people to be hopeful rather than pessimistic...which has generally been the case and we appreciate the on-going support.
Here's the good news though.. we have been doing our testing lately on an AEB 1.8T in a Golf II with a very poor fuel MAP from one of the more "popular" turbo kit companies out there. We have been able to make gains up to 40 HP by adjusting the fuel and boost with the Pro-Tuner se. I see that as great progress and we will continue forward with this. 
Thanks
Rick


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## gltuner (Oct 7, 2004)

is there a price/eta for the mkIII 2.slow yet?


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## KrautFed (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

I think a lot of people have no idea what the complexity of the Motronic 7.x engine management system. I have actually flirted with cracking the Motronic ECU found in 1.8T's... but it EXTREMELY time consuming (500+ bytes of code). I have since decided to use my time on other things, including studies with thermal dynamics, internal combustion engines, EFI characteristics/components, and engine tuning. I am also planning on adding alternative fuel research soon. I sure wish computer assembly came to me like engineering.
Rick, if you need any help with tuning or anything, let me know. I have no problems with a non-disclosure agreement. Keep up the good work, I know first hand just how tough this is.


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## A4_to_Gti20AE (Jun 24, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (KrautFed)*

Free bump


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## Gavster (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Well.... the truth is, we have so much time and money into this that I can guaruntee it will come to fruition. However, things are obviously taking longer than expected. I can't appologize for that, because like I have said in the past.. We will not release the product until its fully functional. I do appologize, however, for releasing information about Pro-Tuner se as early as I did. I was expecting most people to be hopeful rather than pessimistic...which has generally been the case and we appreciate the on-going support.
Here's the good news though.. we have been doing our testing lately on an AEB 1.8T in a Golf II with a very poor fuel MAP from one of the more "popular" turbo kit companies out there. We have been able to make gains up to 40 HP by adjusting the fuel and boost with the Pro-Tuner se. I see that as great progress and we will continue forward with this. 
Thanks
Rick

I wish people would be more patient towards you all too! Things like this take time and money, and i highly doubt you have the funding/man power of places like AEM of GReddy that can whip these things up. This will be a revolutionary product for vws and is worth waiting for and for these guys to get right...just be patient...there will be nothing like this... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## goody6691 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

i must have this system.rick it seems you are working on the answer to alot of our prayers as soon as this is ready you will have my money http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (goody6691)*

Thanks for the positive feedback guys.....


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## Boragirl03 (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*



[email protected] said:


> I can't appologize for that, because like I have said in the past..I do appologize, however, for releasing information about Pro-Tuner se as early as I did.
> QUOTE]
> Here it is right here...the release date was waaaay too early. So of course, you announce that you are going to release a product that is unfinished and the fans get antsy. I think the majority is hopeful, they were just hoping to see production sooner.


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## StrokedPSI (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

2.0 obd2 price? Speculative release date?


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## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (StrokedPSI)*

bump for you. 
any news?


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## Ghetto-8v (Jun 3, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (MrBond)*

Ya, I'm gonna need something soon from someone. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## German VR6 (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Ghetto-8v)*

this thing is way over due...


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (German VR6)*

And one year later


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## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (benzivr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *benzivr6* »_And one year later


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (RedDevil)*

Update:
I just wanted to inform you all that things are still progressing with Pro-Tuner se. Although I'm sure alot of you are now discouraged, I assure you that this product is alive and well and heading its way to production. We appreciate your continued patience. Here is some feedback from our software design team that I recently met with to discuss delays and to give some feedback from the forum::
*Hello Rick,
I'm writing to apologize for the delays in completing the Pro-Tuner se. As you know, the dyno and road testing we have completed together has shown excellent results, and the Pro-Tuner's ability to control fuel has exceeded our expectations. The current hardware is rock solid, and the PC software interface is intuitive and easy to use.
In testing, we have found that the crank triggering scheme that VW uses allows them to control the ignition timing very accurately. For us to reproduce that accuracy, we have been forced to add an additional microprocessor dedicated to controlling the ignition timing. We have a programmer working full time writing the new timing code, and have modified the hardware to work with this new chip - new circuit boards are in layout this week.
This was an unforseen delay, but we feel that in order to maintain the high standards required by Rennen and your customers, it is required and will be worth the extra time required to develop this. 
thanks a lot,
Dave Morrill
Abunai Worldwide*


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## johnoneal (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks for the update!


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## 2.8turbo (Nov 25, 2003)

vr6T bump


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## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

damm this thing looks good.... cant wait; right now im piecing together a turbo kit for my MK4 VR 99.5 will you guys have version for us MK4 guys? right now im looking at SMT7 for management but i think i can wait (i hope i don't sound like im rushing you guys) i think I'll like the Pro tuner better because it build specifically for our cars


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## StreetRyda (Nov 23, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (StreetRyda)*

night bump


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## goody6691 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (StreetRyda)*

must have this, my 2.0t is allmost in and i need this tuner


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## veeedubsvr6 (May 18, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (goody6691)*

in good time in good time


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## MeanDub98 (Oct 28, 2004)

any updates? this could be the final peice to my project.


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: (MeanDub98)*

Bump to the top and any updates!?


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Holy Piston)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holy Piston* »_If this system is all it is cut out to be it would be GREAT to have another choice for tuning,since Honda guys have so many...........funny though,a lot of guys will get bent out of shape if the CEL comes on,and smog places will not pass you unless you have no check light and all readiness codes set.That is something you should make clear due to the fact that plenty peeps here have to have their car pass smog............If it can do this it would be awesome.Can you also run any size injector,and control knock sensor sensitivity,or is all that still "stock".This would be great for all motronic cars for sure,but I assume tis will work for DBW as well??Just tune a car(VW),make great hp and ET with it,show everybody proof and you will sell some. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

Anyone that can have a thread like this last,without being a banner advertiser MUST know what they're doing,or at least be doing SOMEthing right. I applaud that much.


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## fshowcarz (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Hardcore VW)*


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## zornig (May 12, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*



[email protected] said:


> This post has been authorized by [email protected]
> ]
> Hell in that case im interested in Sean authorizing me to introduce my items.
> No offese to Rick im sure its a great project but the whole situation is not fair.


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## Scirocco20v (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (zornig)*

That's how the 4th Reich operates


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Scirocco20v)*

Yeah, that is pretty weak. WTF is up with that? 

_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco20v* »_That's how the 4th Reich operates











_Modified by vfarren at 3:34 PM 3-8-2005_


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (vfarren)*

In defense of [email protected] Vortex, 
We made special arrangements with Sean for this specific thread and product release.


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## zornig (May 12, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_In defense of [email protected] Vortex, 
We made special arrangements with Sean for this specific thread and product release. 


care to tell us what these "special arrangements" are? I would like to get some.


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (zornig)*

You'd have to talk to Sean about your own personal arangements and/or business dealings.


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## MKippen (Nov 6, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se ([email protected])*

if this is as good as it sounds... i'm on it like a fat kid on a cupcake.
any ETA for this.... you must be in the final stages?


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (theflygtiguy)*









Editted for fear of the gas chamber.
Jason


_Modified by vdubspeed at 9:27 AM 3-9-2005_


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## Scirocco20v (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (vdubspeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_








Editted for fear of the gas chamber.
Jason

_Modified by vdubspeed at 9:27 AM 3-9-2005_

LMAO


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## johnoneal (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (vdubspeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_








Editted for fear of the gas chamber.
Jason

_Modified by vdubspeed at 9:27 AM 3-9-2005_























Can't wait to see the final product


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## Kor (Mar 21, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Bora1.8IV)*

I gave up on this when I learned that Elvis really is dead...


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## veeedubsvr6 (May 18, 2003)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Kor)*

when this hits the market its gonna be the hottest thing since pokemon sheit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (Kor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kor* »_I gave up on this when I learned that Elvis really is dead...


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## MKippen (Nov 6, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (RedDevil)*

Whats the update?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (veeedubsvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veeedubsvr6* »_when this hits the market its gonna be the hottest thing since pokemon sheit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Sounds like they had no clue about what they were getting themselves in to with this product. They obviously were not even in an Alpha state when they originally announced this product. 
I bet they're still not within 6 months of having a retail product.


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## 04RSR32 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (TBT-PassatG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-PassatG60* »_
Sounds like they had no clue about what they were getting themselves in to with this product. They obviously were not even in an Alpha state when they originally announced this product. 
I bet they're still not within 6 months of having a retail product.

with all this time and effort you would think it would end up costing a little more as well. would they loose money if they kept the original quoted price. i'm sure what they are trying to accomplish is no small task and it sounds like they are trying to work out all the kinks. why would they want to release this product to the public in its current state? or what ever state it might be in now...


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## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (20th_Ann_GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20th_Ann_GTi* »_
it sounds like they are trying to work out all the kinks. why would they want to release this product to the public in its current state? or what ever state it might be in now...

Why? because with place like Tex they would get burned alive...
with the smallest glitch in the programming you would get a lot of whiners how the product sucks.... 
If you haven't noticed this yet, just got to MKIV forum.


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## GlfSprtCT1 (Feb 9, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (RedDevil)*

bump


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (RedDevil)*

I thin it is good business practice to not release a product until it works 100%, 100% of the time.

_Quote, originally posted by *RedDevil* »_
Why? because with place like Tex they would get burned alive...
with the smallest glitch in the programming you would get a lot of whiners how the product sucks.... 
If you haven't noticed this yet, just got to MKIV forum.


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (vfarren)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vfarren* »_I think it is good business practice to not release a product until it works 100%, 100% of the time.


I completely agree with this. To go along with this though, should be a timeframe for completion dates.
Currently we are being told that there are two steps involved with this product. Step 1: start the developing. Step 2: Ready for sale to the public. When the timeframe between these two steps goes from a couple of months to over a year, the company loses face. This is not the way to endear the buying public, us!
Any project is going to have a number of steps that need to be completed. How about showing us a rough map of those steps and where they are in that map so that we can make an educated decision about whether or not we want to wait for this product to become available?


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## goody6691 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (scottnbarb)*

i'll wait ...no one else is even trying to do this. just be patient dont down on the guy for teasing us at least he is trying


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## 04RSR32 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: ...Introducing... Pro-Tuner se (goody6691)*

bump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------

