# 8V Timing - Something Went Wrong



## nitemareglitch (Aug 19, 2005)

I was attempting to change the cam seal up top, when I got the car slight out of time. I lined the dizzy up right, and I think I got the cam gear at 180 degrees wrong. I started her up then I heard a pop noise. Set the cam gear to where it should be, now all she does it get spark and sound like she wants to turn over but no good. 

What in the hell went wrong?


Pic is related


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

It seems you are going to have to go through the steps of setting the engine timing. First you can check to see if it *is* off before adjusting it. Remove the plug on the transmission and rotate the engine until it is at TDC (the dot should be lined up with the pointer). When that is set, check the camshaft gear and the ignition distributor rotor. They should be lined up as per a manual, cam gear mark and rotor to distributor housing mark. If they are off, don't adjust anything yet, rotate the engine one more revolution (360 degrees) until the TDC mark lines up again. Then check the other two once more (this is because they rotate at different speeds as the crankshaft and only line up once every two engine revolutions). If they are still off or only one is off then it is time to either go through all the steps for setting the engine timing or if you know how to, adjust only the one that is off.


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## nitemareglitch (Aug 19, 2005)

WaterWheels said:


> It seems you are going to have to go through the steps of setting the engine timing. First you can check to see if it *is* off before adjusting it. Remove the plug on the transmission and rotate the engine until it is at TDC (the dot should be lined up with the pointer). When that is set, check the camshaft gear and the ignition distributor rotor. They should be lined up as per a manual, cam gear mark and rotor to distributor housing mark. If they are off, don't adjust anything yet, rotate the engine one more revolution (360 degrees) until the TDC mark lines up again. Then check the other two once more (this is because they rotate at different speeds as the crankshaft and only line up once every two engine revolutions). If they are still off or only one is off then it is time to either go through all the steps for setting the engine timing or if you know how to, adjust only the one that is off.


So I take it I could not have REALLY messed much up eh? I have heard it is hard to screw these engines up with just some bad timing.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

nitemareglitch said:


> So I take it I could not have REALLY messed much up eh? I have heard it is hard to screw these engines up with just some bad timing.


I would take it that way with exceptions, important exceptions I might ad. Ignition timing if screwed up will most times cause no harm. If the spark it too far advanced you run the risk of knock, which you should hear, and if bad enough or left to long can cause damage. Engine timing is a whole different ball game. You have a small window, depending on the engine design, for when the valves can open and close. Go outside this window and the valves become friendly with the pistons and you have to start digging into some expensive (relative) work. So any time there is a question of damage due to engine timing, install the timing belt correctly and do a compression test before moving on.


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## nitemareglitch (Aug 19, 2005)

WaterWheels said:


> I would take it that way with exceptions, important exceptions I might ad. Ignition timing if screwed up will most times cause no harm. If the spark it too far advanced you run the risk of knock, which you should hear, and if bad enough or left to long can cause damage. Engine timing is a whole different ball game. You have a small window, depending on the engine design, for when the valves can open and close. Go outside this window and the valves become friendly with the pistons and you have to start digging into some expensive (relative) work. So any time there is a question of damage due to engine timing, install the timing belt correctly and do a compression test before moving on.


Well I double checked everything again, whole thing lined up perfectly, I even tried moving the cam 180 degrees to see, it does the SAME thing that it was doing in the other position. Is it possible I screwed my intermediate shaft,...or borked a valve?


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## Mittelgrun (Aug 7, 2006)

WaterWheels said:


> I would take it that way with exceptions, important exceptions I might ad. Ignition timing if screwed up will most times cause no harm. If the spark it too far advanced you run the risk of knock, which you should hear, and if bad enough or left to long can cause damage. Engine timing is a whole different ball game. You have a small window, depending on the engine design, for when the valves can open and close. *Go outside this window and the valves become friendly with the pistons* and you have to start digging into some expensive (relative) work. So any time there is a question of damage due to engine timing, install the timing belt correctly and do a compression test before moving on.


the 8v isn't interference, is it?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Please don't jump to any conclussions based on the sentence you marked in bold. Mark the sentence prior to it also and it may show I was not just talking about this engine. Sometimes I go beyond the standard answers like, "yes" or "check your timing" or "plugs, rotor, cap" or a hundred other simple answers which in my opinion are nothing more than "blah, blah, blah, but I really don't have a clue" answers. Sometimes I also get carred away and forget the exact details that started the response and cover more than was required, character flaw I guess. Not trying to jump on you for asking, you should really, just seems to me so many are quick to find fault where there might not have been any really (maybe you were not doing that). Would be smarter, might learn something, friendlier, we could all use some of that and helpful, we all do make mistakes, to just ask for an explaination.

But to maybe clear things up a bit, I don't know this engine and no details were provided. The valves come close in factory form, and it is possible due to mass production that some could make contact, don't know. But if a high lift camshaft is being used or the cylinder head has be milled or both, then a condition exists to have the valves meet the pistons. Without knowing all the details and just trying to explain what could happen I figured it best to cover all possible situations. Call me long winded.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

nitemareglitch said:


> Well I double checked everything again, whole thing lined up perfectly, I even tried moving the cam 180 degrees to see, it does the SAME thing that it was doing in the other position. Is it possible I screwed my intermediate shaft,...or borked a valve?


Sure it is possible, but I don't advise think the worse until all else is tried and tested. A few things bother me, or better interest me, the pop for one. Can you explain just what you mean by it popped. Another is the condition of the engine before this started, did it run and you just wanted to replace the seal? Last is your method for testing. Do not introduce flaws to see if things change, this is a bad practice and could bite you in the ass one day. 

It happens very often to everyone that the simple things we forget or just plain old screw up cause the most grief. My advice is to:
a) Set the engine timing up correctly (flywheel and cam gear) and check that the ignition rotor is pointing towards the machined mark on the ignition distributor housing. If not stop and fix it. If it is then rotote the engine two complete rotations and check them again. Are they still lined up?
b) This should maybe come before "a" above, but hey. What are you using for marks? VW made a few marks for different situations and engines and you need to use the correct ones or things could be off slightly to a lot. can you do pictures? If not try to explain the marks and where you place them.

Not thinking you dumb or doing things wrong, but if everyone is not on the same sheet then things may never get straight.


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## 88Jetta350 (May 4, 2007)

Mittelgrun said:


> the 8v isn't interference, is it?


It is if it's a 10:1 Compression Ratio 8v.

To the OP: are you sure that you're looking at the correct timing marks when you're doing this? I've come across cam sprockets that have more than one timing mark on them. One on the inside of the sprocket, and one on the outside. Make sure you're lining up the mark on the inside with the bottom edge of the valve cover.

You may also have more than one mark on your flywheel. The larger of the two is TDC, the smaller is used to set the ignition timing.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

88Jetta350 said:


> It is if it's a 10:1 Compression Ratio 8v.


The compression ratio of the engine, at least the ones used here, is not a factor. 8.5:1, 9:1 or 10:1 all come to the same height in the bore, only the dish in the piston is changed (execpt 16v of course) which changes the compration ratio.


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## 88Jetta350 (May 4, 2007)

WaterWheels said:


> The compression ratio of the engine, at least the ones used here, is not a factor. 8.5:1, 9:1 or 10:1 all come to the same height in the bore, only the dish in the piston is changed (execpt 16v of course) which changes the compration ratio.


So what makes certain 8v engines interferance then? For example, the DX in my Scirocco, and IIRC, the JH and PF are, too. So what makes them interference engines? The only other differences between the "GTI" engines and the standard engines are the CR, the Valve size, and the Cam profile. Which one is it?


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## nitemareglitch (Aug 19, 2005)

88Jetta350 said:


> It is if it's a 10:1 Compression Ratio 8v.
> 
> To the OP: are you sure that you're looking at the correct timing marks when you're doing this? I've come across cam sprockets that have more than one timing mark on them. One on the inside of the sprocket, and one on the outside. Make sure you're lining up the mark on the inside with the bottom edge of the valve cover.
> 
> You may also have more than one mark on your flywheel. The larger of the two is TDC, the smaller is used to set the ignition timing.


I will get out and take some photos tomorrow in the morning of what it looks like when it is "lined up" there are two marks on the cam...one is a notch and the other looks like it is painted on. Should the notch be on the side of the valve cover facing the firewall or the other way around. I also found the mark on the dizzy like a fairly large notch on it...and have it lined up there as well. As far as in the hole with the flywheel...I was unable to really find a mark due to it being so old...but with everything lined up right it APPEARS it is lined up with everything else. 

The pop sounded loud, I mean it could of been a fuse or relay...the engine does turn overish, just not the normal deep turn over sound, more higher pitched...I will take my flip out with me tomorrow as well and video FTW is going on with it.

I am going to keep digging on it. I wish I knew someone friendly around Atlanta that would not mind coming by to help with the gift of some beers or something


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

> Quote Originally Posted by 88Jetta350
> It is if it's a 10:1 Compression Ratio 8v.


I have an RD 10:1 from an 86 GTI thats NON-interference. Explain that one???


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

.....


> Quote Originally Posted by TheMajic86GTI
> WOW....this new search really sux a big one....seems like they dumped all the old threads when they transferred into this new format....I cant even find my own timing threads with all the pictures to post up...
> 
> 
> ...


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## 88Jetta350 (May 4, 2007)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> I have an RD 10:1 from an 86 GTI thats NON-interference. Explain that one???


I'm sure you found that out by NOT changing your timing belt, right? :laugh:

You do realize we've already established that it's not the CR that makes it interference, and the DX is sure as s**t an interference engine... oh, wait...you guys didn't get the DX....  The Germans call it "the best of the old 8v engines."


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

88Jetta350 said:


> I'm sure you found that out by NOT changing your timing belt, right? :laugh:


Ehhhh wrong!!! Never broke a timing belt in my life. It always got changed to often to break. DX huh, ill hav to look that one up...


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## nitemareglitch (Aug 19, 2005)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> .....


On the cam sprocket, there is a "notch" and a "dot" the paint like mark is the one that gets lined up front...or the physical notch?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

88Jetta350 said:


> . . . and the DX is sure as s**t an interference engine... oh, wait...you guys didn't get the DX....  The Germans call it "the best of the old 8v engines."


I guess one could say nice try, but I live and have lived and workd in Germany for the better part of say 26 years. The DX code 8v is the exact same as the RD engine and many others. It uses the same pistons as the RD/GZ/PF/PB/RV/GU/RH and RD engines and maybe some others also. It first came with a mechanical cylinder head and in the later years of production was switched to a hydraulic head, The early camshafts were the N casting and later changed to the G casting. Want to know any more? Just ask. There are many sites out there which give information about interference vs. non-interference engines. The funny thing is that the companies who sell timing belts list the 1.8L engines as interference (want to buy a belt?) but the places who just give engine data onlylist the diesels as interference and the gasoline engines as non-interference. Fast and easy searches in the Internet will result in the belt companies, time spent on serious researches will net the engine builders and Volkswagen sheets too. or just do as I and others have done, test a few engines to see.


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## nitemareglitch (Aug 19, 2005)

Ok, not a timing issue. Got it narrowed down to no spark. Now I have to start chasing THIS issue around.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Check that all connections are clean and tight. That means removing the multi-plug ones to look for bent pins or corrosion, not just feeling that they are tight. If all that is OK, peel back the rubber protective boot on the connection to the ignition distributor and check the wires. There are three wires and one of then often breaks loose die to vibration and repair work over the years. This is some what common and the wire is often close enough that is make contact here and there, but never stays in contact.


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## nitemareglitch (Aug 19, 2005)

Yes indeed, this is my new adventure for today. This is the first real problem I have had with her, so I guess it was just all in due time


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## VanDamage007 (Aug 31, 2010)

So wait a minute. Im trying to fix my 88 16 Valve GTi. I cant get it timed despite several tries. On my fly wheel I have been lining up the pointer with the dash you see in your picture next to the 0 mark. 

Is this the problem with why I cant get it to purr? If I see that 0 there tomorrow when I check it out Im gonna be excited and try this out. Obviously the only difference in the 16 valve timing is I line up the cam sprocket with the mark on my valve cover, and the intermediate shaft does nothing. I just have to make sure the rotor points to the #1 spark plug. 

This drove me mad today out playing with it in the snow. I really really want to drive it. I just painted it and did a ton of work to the car.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Sorry but the post you did is not exactly clear to me as to what you need help with or even if you are asking for any. Ignition timing or engine timing? 16v engines have their own timing issues if it is engine timing you are talking about. You state you did a lot of work, just what have you done as this could help discover where you went wrong of you did.


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## VanDamage007 (Aug 31, 2010)

I got a new crank sprocket, pinned it on with two 3/16 x 1 1/8" dowel pins, made a custom mill cutter to resurface the end of the crank because it was slightly chewed 

(this went great! with motor in car too used a hand drill the cutter had a hole in the center and we made a shaft that screwed in the crank...) 

I re timed it today with the 0 dot on the fly wheel and now it will run with the distributor in the middle roughly. Its better but wont idle. I think this is due to the broken knock sensor. I ordered it today, will know tomorrow....


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## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*..*

iam having timing issues as well water wheels has been a great help to me,
i have a question regaurding the photo of the tranny at tdc, my flywheel has a different mark at least i think its the mark it is a rectangular mark that is silver could i be usuing the wrong mark?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

MkBean said:


> . . . i have a question regaurding the photo of the tranny at tdc, my flywheel has a different mark at least i think its the mark it is a rectangular mark that is silver could i be usuing the wrong mark?


Yes, you are looking, I hope not trying to use, machined blocks that are used in the Volkswagen shops that have equipment to read them as they pass by. The above picture is correct, the dot ("O") which is directly under the pointer is the Top Dead Center (TDC) mark. If you look to the left of that mark (counterclockwise) you can see the machined notch ("V") which is used to time the ignition at 6 degrees before TDC. Using either, the square lugs (four of them around the flywheel) or the V notch, when trying to install the timing belt (timing or setting-up the engine) will cause you to be off a tooth or more. The only pic/drawing missing which might help is the V-belt and intermediate shaft marks being show lined up as they should be.


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## MkBean (Jun 21, 2010)

*?*

if i dont use the rectangular block then what do i use ive looked all around my flywheel and thats the closest thing to TDC i can find, meaning that whenever i line it up to that mark that everything is closest to TDC except the intermediate shaft mark which is set back about a half inch.


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## EURidahO (Jul 10, 2006)

Don't mean to threadjack, but I have a quick timing clarification as well. Am I correct in my process: Line up cam gear dot with front of valve cover, line up flywheel at the TDC dot. after this is set, crank engine back to the 6* BTDC notch and set the distributor to it's notch? (which I assume achieves the same thing as the estimated "1/8th inch to the right of the notch" thing)

I ask because my go to mk2 friend said to use the 6* notch to set the cam timing as well as the ignition timing


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