# phaeton 3.2 wont get a gear



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

hi this is my first post on a forum ever so bare with me....

I have a 2004 Phaeton 3.2 with LPG conversion.
yesterday whilst driving it started having problems changing up gears (just red lining and not changing)
so i pulled over, turned the engine off and restarted. the same thing happened again until eventually it went into drive but would not pull away.
I had to be recovered and got recovered to a specialist transmission shop, where they are running some tests etc.
Does anyone have any experience in what this might be? How much i am looking at paying in the UK?
Ive only had the car 2 months and absolutely love it, i have no warrenty or anything so the repair will have to be paid by me.

any advice for me or the tech would be really appreciated, thankyou

ASH


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't recall anybody with those exact symptoms before. Usually the worst case scenario is that it goes into limp mode, which I think means it selects third gear and stays there. Hopefully the transmission shop can do something with it because a new transmission isn't cheap. There are plenty of transmission threads if you search the forum, solutions range from changing fluid (usually for mild slippage), valve body refurb, clutch rebuilds, etc, all the way to complete replacement. Mine was replaced under warranty last year with a remanufactured unit for a total price of around $6500.


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

they rang me this morning and told me for a refurb on my gearbox it would be £2700 plus VAT not including the labour.
i have no idea what my next step is from here.
the guy at the shop sounded pretty adament that it would need to be fully replaced, however im sure that there is another option surely?

please any advice on where to go from here would be greatly appreciated 

ASH


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Are they talking about refurbishing the existing unit or replacing it with a refurbished one? My guess is that's the cost of a replacement, in which case it's not a bad price, but you're probably looking at a substantial amount of labour on top of that to swap it out. As I said, your symptoms were worse than anything I recall reading here, so I think it's highly likely the transmission is toast. It's probably the single most expensive problem on the car, if mine hadn't been replaced just before the warranty expired, I probably would have sold the car by now.


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

the mechanic said that was for a refurb, he said that you cannot swap gearboxes as they are programmed to the car or something similar?
Ive found a replacement unit on ebay from the same car and its £600
if a second hand gearbox can be put onto my car then surely the labour for doing that wont come to anything near the extra £3400 that the garage have quoted?


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*can a gearbox be replaced with a second hand one?*

its looking as tho im going to have to have my gearbox refurbished or replaced...
its a VW phaeton 3.2 petrol
i believe it has the gearbox code of GUK and ive found one the same on ebay for 600 delivered.

My question is will this fit straight onto my car and work as it should etc?
the garage where the car is at the moment have told me that this is not possible but other people i have spoken to have said that it is.
Im really confused at what to do as ive been quoted £2700 plus VAT for a refurb on mine which i just simply cant afford at the mo.

If i brought the £600 one from ebay, how much would it cost to get it fitted etc (ROUGHLY) 

thanks in advance


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi ASH,

Welcome to the forum! It is a pity that it's not under better circumstances. Like Invisiblewave, I don't recall anyone reporting your specific problem, ie no upchange, here.

I am sure that you need a diagnostics scan using a VCDS cable or the factory equivalent to see if it's the gear selector mechanism slider that's damaged or the transmission controller reporting a fault with the mechatronics block in the gearbox, or the gearbox controller itself. It could, just possibly, be a wiring or speed sensor problem.

Of course, if the transmission shop have identified a specific mechanical fault in the gearbox using their own ZF diagnostics procedures, or by physically examining the Mechatronics unit, then that's different.

If your transmission specialist has a VCDS then please get them to give you a full scan in a text file onto a usb stick and post it here.

If not, if it was my car, I would beg, borrow or steal a VCDS diagnostics cable before letting anyone who will send you an invoice touch it.

Chris


PS - as usual, it's a great boost to getting replies on the forum if you want to fill in some profile details. See this thread for details.


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

hi

thankyou for replying. As far as i am aware they have done nothing to the car other than some sort of scan but i dont know if it was using the VCDS system?
The garage told me that it was most certainly something mechanical, then quoted the £2700 to have it refurbed and that was that. Im actually really confused

is there anyone that can recommend anyone local to Manchester UK that would be able to help me out?

I will try and find somewhere that can scan the car and then post the results on here and hopefully get this sorted.
I absolutely love the Phaeton and just want it back on the road

ASh


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

ashmarine2001 said:


> hi
> 
> thankyou for replying. As far as i am aware they have done nothing to the car other than some sort of scan but i dont know if it was using the VCDS system?
> The garage told me that it was most certainly something mechanical, then quoted the £2700 to have it refurbed and that was that. Im actually really confused
> ...


Ash - if you can wait till weekend, and your car's accessible I'll come and try to scan it for you. Send me a private message with contact details etc. I have no diagnostic ability bar being able to read (on a good day) the scans... but we can certainly try and get them out and up here for inspection.

Regards

Mike


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*Administrative note:*

I merged the other thread relating to this problem with this one, since we already have a discussion active here.

Chris


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

thanks for everyones help.

does anyone know if a second hand gearbox can be fitted to my car? worst comes to worst, thats what ill get done.

id much prefer to get the problem diagnosed and then keep the origional transmission if possible.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

As far as I know, fitting a used transmission should work, there's an adaptation procedure but I don't think it makes any difference if it's used. The problem with that is you don't know what you're getting, the labour is going to be the same regardless, and you might be spending a couple of grand on labour to fit a transmission that's going to fail again. The price you're being quoted to have it refurbished is roughly what I paid for a refurbished unit, so it's not unreasonable.

If they've scanned the car, ask them to email a copy of the scan and post it here. My guess is they probably have scanned it and have identified the problem from the scan. It doesn't sound as if they're trying to rip you off.

What mileage is on the transmission, and has the fluid ever been changed?


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

The car has done 118k or there abouts and to my knowledge is the original trans.
I have only owned the car 2 months so I'm not sure when the fluids were changed if ever?
I was thinking of getting a second hand gearbox fitted and then taking the car out to Dortmund to have a proper service on it to make sure that it's right. Does that sound like a good idea?
I am just looking to keep the costs down as well as keep the car on the road for many more miles.

Also how long will a gear box change take roughly? 

Thanks for all your help


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I checked my invoice, the parts were $5k (net of core charge) and labour was $1500, so I'd guess you're looking at around 12 hours to take it out and put it back in. Personally, I wouldn't put a used 'box in it, you're probably looking at around £1500 anyway with the cost of the Dormund service on top, plus petrol to get there & back and accommodation costs. And after all that you'd be running a transmission that probably already has many miles on it. With a refurbished unit, you'll probably get some sort of guarantee as well, I don't remember whether mine was 1 year or 2 years, I think it was 2.


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Does anyone have any experience with putting a used gearbox into a phaeton? How easy is it to get it programmed for my car? 
I'd love to get my gear box reconditioned but just can't afford the 3000 price tag for it, so I'm going to have to risk putting a second hand unit in (if it's possible)


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## entwisi (Feb 19, 2013)

not a Phaeton but I had to go this route on a A8 a few years ago. total cost was £2500 so you might be able to get it down a bit from the 3K you quote but a large part was the 8 or 9 hours of removal and fitting labour which I guess would be similar irrespective of that being a recon or used box thats going back in.

I used a place in rochdale who did a lot of ZF work across Audi/BMW/Jag, I'm happy to point you in his direction if you like..

IAn


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Ash,

Can you give us a little more information about what exactly happened when the gear shift stopped working? For example, was this at 3, 10, 30 or 60mph or more? Was the car cold or warm (oil temp at 90C)? Were there any dash warning lights? Did the shift lamps PRNDS all light up together? Was the car stuck in 3rd gear? Did putting the gear selector in Tiptronic mode do anything? Had you previously seen any other transitory symptoms, such as a dash warning light or message that appeared briefly then did not re-occur? Was the car running on LPG or petrol at the time?

If you can get that scan done (perhaps Mike can help) it would be really nice to try and detect if you have a corroded plug on the transmission controller rather than bent gears! The actual gear assembly in a ZF box is extremely tough, as anyone who has experienced the jolt (aka two-foot kick in the back) on engaging a gear at high revs when the fluid is low will confirm.

The transmission system works using torque demand. The accelerator pedal is partly interpreted as a torque requirement by the engine ECU. This then uses a batch of sensors to calculate the torque required and asks the gearbox controller for the the present torque and calculates a new number. Then the gearbox controller attempts to delivers the new requested torque by operating the solenoids in the Mechatronics unit at the base of the gearbox. This alters the pressure feeds to the actual gear and torque converter clutches to push out the required torque value in whichever gear is appropriate.

So the situation is more complex than just assuming that the gearbox is shot. It's possible to refurbish/replace the mechatronics unit, replace the gearbox controller, flush the ATF to try to remove foreign particles jamming a solenoid. Reading the diagnostics scan might see if all the sensors are performing properly, or just possibly see if the LPG system is involved in some way.

Which action you do next could well be determined by looking at a scan. I don't want to raise too many false hopes, maybe you do need to source a box, but that scan is well worth doing in my view.

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I agree. I wouldn't make any decisions without seeing a scan, or at least knowing that one had been done by a reputable shop.

If you decide on the Ebay unit and money is that tight, I wouldn't make the trek to Dortmund, I'd have the shop doing the installation change the fluid and filter and possibly look at the mechatronics unit, if they're able to. There'll be an issue determining which fluid to use, you'll probably need the VIN of the donor car to be sure, or at least to be reasonably sure.


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> Hi Ash,
> 
> Can you give us a little more information about what exactly happened when the gear shift stopped working? For example, was this at 3, 10, 30 or 60mph or more? Was the car cold or warm (oil temp at 90C)? Were there any dash warning lights? Did the shift lamps PRNDS all light up together? Was the car stuck in 3rd gear? Did putting the gear selector in Tiptronic mode do anything? Had you previously seen any other transitory symptoms, such as a dash warning light or message that appeared briefly then did not re-occur? Was the car running on LPG or petrol at the time?
> 
> ...


Chris - if I'm able to meet Ash and help him with a scan... I've no experience of delving into much (espically in the box controllers) apart from the fault codes. Any advice on what else to do apart from just bringing out the codes?

Thanks

Mike


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Mike,

I suggest a simple full auto scan would be enough, given that we are starting from zero diagnostics.

It would be advantageous to save a scan as-is (engine running, of course), clear the DTCs, attempt to engage gear (if possible and safe) and do another full auto scan. That's probably half an hour's worth of waiting around...

Cheers,
Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> That's probably half an hour's worth of waiting around...


Not if you change the txt file for the scan to match the controllers on the car... saves a lot of wasted time. But still long enough for a brew (that's a hint, Ash)

Your proposed MO is probably just about what I would have done anyway.

Regards

M


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Does the transmission controller need to be scanned with the engine running? I know there's a problem with it when changing the coding, I think it only does that with the engine off (or could be on), not sure if it applies to scanning, but I know that particular controller is different from the rest (at least on my car).


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Paximus said:


> Hi Ash,
> 
> Can you give us a little more information about what exactly happened when the gear shift stopped working? For example, was this at 3, 10, 30 or 60mph or more? Was the car cold or warm (oil temp at 90C)? Were there any dash warning lights? Did the shift lamps PRNDS all light up together? Was the car stuck in 3rd gear? Did putting the gear selector in Tiptronic mode do anything? Had you previously seen any other transitory symptoms, such as a dash warning light or message that appeared briefly then did not re-occur? Was the car running on LPG or petrol at the time?
> 
> ...


Hi guys sorry i havent been on yesterday, 
this is exactly what happened, 
i had driven about 15 miles without a problem. The gears had been juddering slightly for a week or so but i had assumed this was due to the LPG system needing servicing.
anyway, the car started to hold gears longer than it should have, i think it was second gear it was holding, it just wouldnt get out of it, so i slowed down and pulled over. i turned the car off and then tried again but the same thing happened. ii was reving to the red line without changing any gears, so i pulled over again. but as i pulled over it lost the gear altogether.
it wont engage any gear, including reverse or the triptronic gears.
the car was running on LPG at the time so i tried switching to petrol but it does exactly the same.
I have rung around and can get a my gearbox reconditioned for £1800 so thats the avenue i think im going to eventually take once i can afford it. Its come at just the wrong time as i have just finished a very long and very expensive court case to keep my 4 year old son in the UK (his mum was trying to take him to australia)
so as you can imagine money is tight at the mo.
It would be awesome if i didnt have to get the full gearbox reconditioned and could just replace the part or parts that have gone wrong, i guess thats why i need a scan.
Mike, if you could come and scan the car id be so greatful. You guys seem to know so much about VWs, im completely over my head. I love cars but ive never understood how they work etc haha


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The other possibility that might save you money is the torque converter. There's a thread somewhere about changing just that piece rather than the whole transmission, although I don't believe it saved a huge amount of money, there's still a lot of work involved.


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> The other possibility that might save you money is the torque converter. There's a thread somewhere about changing just that piece rather than the whole transmission, although I don't believe it saved a huge amount of money, there's still a lot of work involved.


if it was a torque converter would that show up on a scan?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't know. If you do a search you should be able to find the thread. I know some of the scan results have given pretty specific indications of what's wrong inside the 'box. Looking at the evidence so far, though, I think you're clutching at straws, I don't think you're going to come out of this without a large hole in your wallet, unfortunately. I'm not trying to be a doom & gloom merchant, just don't want you to get false hopes, the VCDS scanning tool has never saved me a penny in the end, just armed me with a more information when I called the dealer. The transmission risk is the biggest obstacle to running a high mileage Phaeton cheaply, or any German limo I should think. Even after having mine changed, it still concerns me for the long-run.


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## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

Hello Ash,
Despite the dramatic symptoms that you have experienced, the core of your transmission may be just fine. I've never experienced or heard of total gear loss in a Phaeton.. but if your "juddering" symptoms were mild, I would suggest that you have the shop replace (or refurbish) the valve body before doing anything else.
Consult my other posts for more details about valve body and torque converter issues - doing so may help you lay the scene for your next move.
If you don't mind, I have some questions. Has the shop told you in detail which parts they intend to replace? Did you have any work done on your car which would have caused a spike or surge in the electrical system? When you experienced zero "drive" in the transmission, and whilst the revs were up, did you hear any grinding or clunking noises?
It costs very little to explore and mitigate the valve body - make sure that your shop starts there. If you have to go deeper ie: the torque converter, that is a whole other scene with very different costs.

Regards,
Sacha


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

invisiblewave said:


> the VCDS scanning tool has never saved me a penny in the end


Hi Martin- generally agree with your caution and to be prepared for the worst here.. although we do need to explore what we can.

VCDS has definitely saved me money twice - both on the V10 where it's two ECUs have got out of synch... so on this basis don't buy one unless you've got a V10 or a W12

Regards

Mike


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*Scan Results*

hi everyone

Thanks to Mike who VERY generously lent me the scan cable to scan my car....
heres the resuls, there seems to be LOADS of faults. 
its obviously the trans that i am most interested in as thats the thing thats keeping the car off the road, but if anyone can shed any light on the faults i would be greatful.

Tuesday,10,June,2014,23:00:07:37747
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 License Plate: 
Mileage: 190440km-118333mi Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton (2002 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 Mileage: 190440km/118333miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 022 906 032 AK HW: 
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6239 
Coding: 0000133
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 54AC72DBF4683CBE6FF-513C

1 Fault Found:
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow
Readiness: 0010 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
Part No SW: 09L 927 760 D HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09L 3,2L VR6 1702 
Coding: 0000101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

1 Fault Found:
18161 - Tiptronic Switch (F189) 
P1753 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 3
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 190439 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2064.00.00
Time: 00:00:00

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 768 /min
RPM: 0 /min
RPM: 0 /min
(no units): 23.0
(no units): 31.0
Temperature: 20.0°C
T.B. Angle: 0.0°


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008366
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927491683465E5-5120

3 Faults Found:
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 N HW: 5WK 470 21
Component: Kessy 6610 
Revision: 66105312 Serial number: VWZ3Z0D1277697
Coding: 0004328
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E2B7-5120

Subsystem 1 - Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

5 Faults Found:
01176 - Key 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00165 - Switch for Transmission Position P/N 
007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
009 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00087 - Terminal 30 for Starting Relevant Consumers 
009 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 007 P
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0400004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2648F81392747E2EC1B-513C

3 Faults Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01312 - Powertrain Data Bus 
013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 H
Component: Climatronic D1 2021 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

3 Faults Found:
00716 - Air recirculation Flap Positioning Motor (V113) 
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective - Intermittent
00445 - Loss of Refrigerant 
000 - - - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 H
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5101 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 00666 210 103711
VCID: 2F661D37BD8E3F6632D-513C

3 Faults Found:
01494 - Bulb for Parking Lamps; Left (M1) 
010 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
00907 - Intervention load Management 
000 - -
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 E
Component: 0H Airbag 8.4E+ H10 0935 
Coding: 0012360
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 254AFF1FEF727536C81-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 D
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000031
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E580033BA84366E39B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 981 T
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0521 
Coding: 0007411
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

2 Faults Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0E45E4BE030E09EEB7-513C

2 Faults Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C83813D2F43E2E81B-515A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553-V2.clb
Part No: 3D0 907 553 C
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C3V0 1121 
Coding: 0005521
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 2756F517957E6726FAD-513C

1 Fault Found:
01598 - Drive Battery Voltage 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605 
Coding: 0000060
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2240E403FE5C820EAD3-513C

1 Fault Found:
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E7D63517D5FE2726BAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
Component: HSG 0101 
Coding: 0000034
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 336E114751A61B86565-FFFF

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D2 959 701 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D2 959 702 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0201

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0201

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0201

Subsystem 5 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 465 A
Component: 08K-AUDIOVERST 0112 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 1F46EDF7CD2EAFE682D-513C

1 Fault Found:
00870 - Bass Speaker Front Left (R21) 
011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No: 3D2 955 120 
Component: Front Wiper 3000 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: DFC62DF70DAE6FE642D-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
Part No: 3D0 915 181 C
Component: Batteriemanagement 2700 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-5120

1 Fault Found:
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday,10,June,2014,23:20:02:37747
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 License Plate: 
Mileage: 190440km-118333mi Repair Order: 


Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton (2002 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 Mileage: 190440km/118333miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 022 906 032 AK HW: 
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6239 
Coding: 0000133
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 54AC72DBF4683CBE6FF-513C

1 Fault Found:
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow
Readiness: 0010 1001

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
Part No SW: 09L 927 760 D HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09L 3,2L VR6 1702 
Coding: 0000101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008366
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927491683465E5-5120

3 Faults Found:
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 N HW: 5WK 470 21
Component: Kessy 6610 
Revision: 66105312 Serial number: VWZ3Z0D1277697
Coding: 0004328
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E2B7-513C

Subsystem 1 - Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

5 Faults Found:
01176 - Key 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
00165 - Switch for Transmission Position P/N 
007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
009 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
00087 - Terminal 30 for Starting Relevant Consumers 
009 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 007 P
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0400004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2648F81392747E2EC1B-513C

3 Faults Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01312 - Powertrain Data Bus 
013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 H
Component: Climatronic D1 2021 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

3 Faults Found:
00716 - Air recirculation Flap Positioning Motor (V113) 
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective - Intermittent
00445 - Loss of Refrigerant 
000 - - - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 H
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5101 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 00666 210 103711
VCID: 2F661D37BD8E3F6632D-5120

3 Faults Found:
01494 - Bulb for Parking Lamps; Left (M1) 
010 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
00907 - Intervention load Management 
000 - -
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 E
Component: 0H Airbag 8.4E+ H10 0935 
Coding: 0012360
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 254AFF1FEF727536C81-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 D
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000031
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E580033BA84366E39B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 981 T
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0521 
Coding: 0007411
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

2 Faults Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0E45E4BE030E09EEB7-513C

2 Faults Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C83813D2F43E2E81B-5178

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control  Labels: 3D0-907-553-V2.clb
Part No: 3D0 907 553 C
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C3V0 1121 
Coding: 0005521
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 2756F517957E6726FAD-5120

1 Fault Found:
01598 - Drive Battery Voltage 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605 
Coding: 0000060
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2240E403FE5C820EAD3-513C

1 Fault Found:
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E7D63517D5FE2726BAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
Component: HSG 0101 
Coding: 0000034
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 336E114751A61B86565-FFFF

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D2 959 701 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D2 959 702 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0201

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0201

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0201

Subsystem 5 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Ash,

Thanks so much for that. Please can you describe the circumstances for each of the scans, ie are they both taken one after the other with no changes, or is the 2nd one posted after clearing the faults using VCDS and running the car and gear shift, then re-scanning, with the engine running all the time?

My preliminary remarks are below, assuming DTCs were cleared. There are some data bus irregularities to be looked at. An 'Intermittent' fault means that it happened at some time in the past but is not happening 'at this moment' (ie during the scan).

Maybe others here will chip with comments too.

Regards,
Chris



Tuesday,10,June,2014,23:20:02:37747
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 License Plate: 
Mileage: 190440km-118333mi Repair Order: 


Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton (2002 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 Mileage: 190440km/118333miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 022 906 032 AK HW: 
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6239 
Coding: 0000133
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 54AC72DBF4683CBE6FF-513C

1 Fault Found:
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys *Probably just the LPG mods*
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow
Readiness: 0010 1001

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
Part No SW: 09L 927 760 D HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09L 3,2L VR6 1702 
Coding: 0000101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-5120

No fault code found. *Well, well... the gears won't shift and the controller is happy. So the gears are obeying the controller's commands perfectly?*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008366
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927491683465E5-5120

3 Faults Found:
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent *We normally ignore Intermittent reports at first, but in this case I am deeply suspicious*
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 N HW: 5WK 470 21
Component: Kessy 6610 
Revision: 66105312 Serial number: VWZ3Z0D1277697
Coding: 0004328
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E2B7-513C

Subsystem 1 - Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

5 Faults Found:
01176 - Key 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent *It's unusual to see this report.*
00165 - Switch for Transmission Position P/N 
007 - Short to Ground - Intermittent *It's normal to see this report, it's caused by a worn gear selector slider, but in this case it could be causing the gearbox controller some confusion.*
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent *This is not right.*
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
009 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent *Usually seen when fuses or plugs have been removed for inspection, but if DTCs were just cleared and the battery is fully charged it needs checking.*
00087 - Terminal 30 for Starting Relevant Consumers 
009 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent *As above.*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 007 P
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0400004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2648F81392747E2EC1B-513C

3 Faults Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent *As above.*
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent *Unusual with software 0223. Needs checking.*
01312 - Powertrain Data Bus 
013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent *This refers to the transmission report at Address 19, Data Gateway.*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 H
Component: Climatronic D1 2021 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

3 Faults Found:
00716 - Air recirculation Flap Positioning Motor (V113) *Take these at face value unless the vehicle power supply is not up to scratch.*
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective - Intermittent
00445 - Loss of Refrigerant 
000 - - - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 H
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5101 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 00666 210 103711
VCID: 2F661D37BD8E3F6632D-5120

3 Faults Found:
01494 - Bulb for Parking Lamps; Left (M1) 
010 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent *Face value.*
00907 - Intervention load Management *Normal*
000 - -
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent *Unusual. Something has been going on with the data communications, or the vehicle power supply.*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 E
Component: 0H Airbag 8.4E+ H10 0935 
Coding: 0012360
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 254AFF1FEF727536C81-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 D
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000031
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E580033BA84366E39B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 981 T
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0521 
Coding: 0007411
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

2 Faults Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module *If the module is OK then the data bus or power supply has been unhappy.*
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) *If the module is OK then the data bus or power supply has been unhappy.*
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0E45E4BE030E09EEB7-513C

2 Faults Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module *As above.*
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) *As above.*
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C83813D2F43E2E81B-5178

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553-V2.clb
Part No: 3D0 907 553 C
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C3V0 1121 
Coding: 0005521
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 2756F517957E6726FAD-5120

1 Fault Found:
01598 - Drive Battery Voltage 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent *Vehicle power supply dipped low. Can happen in normal operation, but might mean left battery is flat or inadequate.*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605 
Coding: 0000060
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2240E403FE5C820EAD3-513C

1 Fault Found:
01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) *data comms - as above.*
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E7D63517D5FE2726BAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
Component: HSG 0101 
Coding: 0000034
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 336E114751A61B86565-FFFF

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D2 959 701 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D2 959 702 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0201

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0201

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0201

Subsystem 5 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Paximus said:


> Hi Ash,
> 
> Thanks so much for that. Please can you describe the circumstances for each of the scans, ie are they both taken one after the other with no changes, or is the 2nd one posted after clearing the faults using VCDS and running the car and gear shift, then re-scanning, with the engine running all the time?
> 
> ...


hi thanks so much for the info. these test results were run without clearing any faults. ill do a full scan today, clear the faults and then re scan and show results...

In terms of what my next move is regarding my gear box what would you advise me to do?

Kind Regards
Ashley


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Ah, if the faults were not reset and the car run 'through the gears' (if possible) before the scan then much of the above may be down to the techs pulling out the connector plug on the transmission and/or gear selector and generally leaving the car with the doors open and the radio on (or similar). This would reduce the left battery voltage.

Let's see what the next scan looks like. Did they return the car to you? Can you move it along the street before re-scanning?

Chris


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's hard to believe with a problem this drastic that there wouldn't have been a transmission fault logged if it were indeed a transmission problem.


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

This feels to me like communication problems between controllers. I'm pretty much a novice here - but don't we know that some ABS errors and steering errors stop the transmission going into drive (on safety grounds) or did I dream that?

Quite a few kessy faults... wet kessy??

Not really sure what next....

Regards

M


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I had that same feeling when browsing that scan. The ABS controller, from memory, can cause transmission issues. When mine failed, the transmission worked fine but the throttle was disabled, it would go but only at idle speed. The other person who had ABS failure at the same time I did, however, got the PRNDS thing on the dash and the dealer initially suspected a transmission controller failure. The bad news is that they're expensive controllers, especially if the problem isn't diagnosed accurately. My repair cost close to $5k, and the other guy's bill ran to about $7500 I think, although I seem to remember he got some sort of goodwill discount.


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

What an optimist you are Martin..... or maybe just a realist.

Anybody know where these controllers are physically located?

I can't imagine swapping them out will be easy from the point of view of making a fresh one talk to all the other controllers nicely.

Does this have to be a dealership fix... or would the expertise and diagnosis abilities exist anywhere else? 

Regards

M


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I've learnt not to be an optimist when it comes to Phaeton maintenance! Somewhere there's a write-up for refurbishing the ABS controller, but it's not for the feint of heart.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

The transmission controller is typically found in the fuse box in the plenum. But on some models it is incorporated into the valve body. There are also fuses under (in) the steering column that may play some sort of role in the transmission electronics. Another item that needs to be checked out is the main electrical connection to the valve body - some of the pins can get corroded and wreak havoc.
Somewhere on this Forum there is an exchange about transmission electronics between "WillemBal" and "Seawind3000" which may help to develop a new angle..........
I've seen second hand controllers (4.2 - 6 speed) on Ebay for $150.00......... don't know what's available in the UK, but if it turns out to be an "electronics only" problem the cost of repair may be quite reasonable. I would think that any shop that is VAG-COM equipped and experienced would be able to put everything back to right.
At any rate, Ash, you must not do ANYTHING else until you've got a reliable scan completed.

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Went to give Ash some moral support this evening... 

Struggled a bit.. in Autoscan mode VCDS wouldn't talk properly to the controllers and just returned

No Faults Found
or DTCs not supported by controller
or a communication error occurred

For the majority of controllers.

Anyhow looking into a few controllers individually

02 Trans - had a standing

1 Fault Found:
18161 - Tiptronic Switch (F189)
P1753 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:

And PRNDS is all lit up.

03 ABS - no standing fault codes

05 kessy - some faults, but all went away when cleared and did not reappear.

19 CAN Gateway - some faults but as Kessy all went away when cleared and did not come back.

Clearing the Transmission fault cleared the PRNDS light.

However on putting the shift into D immediately brought the same fault back. And the transmission showed no sign of even starting to want to move.

I didn't think to check if it would reverse before D brought up the fault... 

Made me wonder now about the transmission shift switches just below the shift lever.

Anyhow after a dispiriting 50 minutes playing with this, we thought we'd retire to consult the wise heads here. I realise we've not followed a clinical logical fault finding path here.... at least not yet... but I for one would appreciate some group think on what else us amateurs might spend some time looking at.

Look forward to your pearls of wisdom. 

Thanks

M


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

Hello M,
Good on you!!! 
Some "Forum-based" research that I've done in the past suggests that the magnets in the shift plate MAY be at fault. Very busy at the moment, but I'll try to cobble togther some links on the subject as soon as I can.

Regards,
Sacha

The magnets....... there are two of them - one is square, the other cone-shaped....... sometimes they come loose and disable the shifter.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It definitely logs that error when the tiptronic switch fails. I have the same thing, intermittently, with the paddles. Same error, different switch named. However, even with the error and the PRNDS indication, mine still works in auto mode. It resets when I turn the ignition off and the paddles start working again. During my research, I came across a fix for the magnetic switch, but it's fiddly.


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Sacha/Martin - thanks. Do you know if such a fault can actually completely kill the box - ie prevent any motion at all?

There is a lot of material on this on the forum somewhere... maybe in the ToC. I've not time to look tonight... probably be the weekend now. But if anyone can pull it all together in a set of links, that would probably be very helpful.

I'd like to see this motor running again. 3.2 V6 are not that common in the UK... well not as common as the 3.0 TDI. I'd never heard one before.. the engine has a nice sound to it - I was pleasantly surprised. It's not a V8... but nevertheless it did excite me a bit.

Regards

M


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

In my case, the transmission still works fine when the error occurs, it merely disables the paddles. There are a LOT of posts around the web about the failure of the magnetic tiptronic switch that the shifter operates. It seems that VW use the same switch on all their vehicles, although I don't know for sure that it includes the Phaeton, but I'd guess it probably does. It seems unlikely to me that a tiptronic switch failure would cause the transmission to stop working altogether, but on the other hand it does seem like a big coincidence that they're both occurring, definitely worth ruling that out before changing the tranny!

Might be worth trying to trace the fuse and see if there's one just for the switch. Once the paddles are disconnected it's as if the car doesn't know they're there, it may be the same for the other switch. If there's no separate fuse, it may still be possible to find the connector and pull it out without too much dismantling.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

n968412L said:


> Sacha/Martin - thanks. Do you know if such a fault can actually completely kill the box - ie prevent any motion at all?
> 
> There is a lot of material on this on the forum somewhere... maybe in the ToC. I've not time to look tonight... probably be the weekend now. But if anyone can pull it all together in a set of links, that would probably be very helpful.
> 
> ...


Mike, Martin and Ash,

Here are three links to info that may help..........

*Read this one first!!!!!* Tiptronic switch (F189) implausible signal - info here!

Conversation between WillemBal & Seawind3000: 6-Speed (V8-Engine) Transmission control module

PRNDS Lights up or Unwanted "Move Selector to P" message

I too would like to hear the sound of the 3.2! Particularily when the trans is engaged - let us know how you get on.

In the meantime....... good night, and good luck!

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

hi sacha thankyou for the reply. i cant seem to get the links you sent to work.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Links amended.

Chris


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*fusebox number 67*

http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/swifnrcahndkbfxypw_fusebox.jpg

i think i have ruled out the triptronic switch as the fuse number which relates to this is number 67 which has been used already by what i assume is my LPG conversion
i have attached a link to the pic of it so you can see.

Should i get a mechanic to have a look whats in my transmition filter to see if there is a lot of metal on the magnets etc? as this will surely tell me if the gearbox is buggered?

any help advice and info would be great from here as im all out of ideas and close to giving up lol

i love my car but just want it back on the road or at least know what the problem actually is


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Giving up?? You should have the car towed to somewhere that can properly diagnose the problem! What's the logic behind ruling out the tiptronic switch? We know it definitely has a problem because we've seen the error on the scan. If anything, the fact that the LPG conversion used the fuse slot would make me even more suspicious that it might be the source of the issues.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

ashmarine2001 said:


> http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/swifnrcahndkbfxypw_fusebox.jpg
> 
> i think i have ruled out the triptronic switch as the fuse number which relates to this is number 67 which has been used already by what i assume is my LPG conversion
> i have attached a link to the pic of it so you can see.
> ...





ashmarine2001 said:


> http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/swifnrcahndkbfxypw_fusebox.jpg
> 
> i think i have ruled out the triptronic switch as the fuse number which relates to this is number 67 which has been used already by what i assume is my LPG conversion
> i have attached a link to the pic of it so you can see.
> ...



Thank you, Chris!

Ash/ Mike,
The third link will clearly answer the question of the shift plate being able to immobilise the transmission............

I would continue to focus on the electronics. If (prior to the loss of trans engagement) the gears were running smoothly, I suggest again that the "core" of the transmission is probably not at fault. It wouldn't be money wasted to have the pan taken off - the valve body harness could be checked at the same time - but, that may still yet be premature. Get the trans to engage first and go from there.
Is it possible, Ash, to disengage the LPG?? If it is, as you say, somehow sharing a fuse with the trans electronics, it may be worth exploring that dimension.

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I agree with Sacha. We don't have any instances of transmissions going from no symptoms to no gears at all, as far as I know, and there is strong evidence from the scan of at least two problems (the tiptronic switch and the ABS controller) that are known to interfere with or disable the transmission. The car needs to be looked at by someone who can tackle Phaeton electronics. The other simple thing I'd try would be to pull the fuse for the ABS controller and see what happens.


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> I agree with Sacha. We don't have any instances of transmissions going from no symptoms to no gears at all, as far as I know, and there is strong evidence from the scan of at least two problems (the tiptronic switch and the ABS controller) that are known to interfere with or disable the transmission. The car needs to be looked at by someone who can tackle Phaeton electronics. The other simple thing I'd try would be to pull the fuse for the ABS controller and see what happens.


i thought about pulling the fuse for the ABS but was worried i might do more harm than good but if it will be okay then ill do that and see if it engages a gear.

Failing that does anyone have any recommendations of anyone who knows their way around a phaeton (electrics/gearbox)
i have my mechanic that i use coming over to have a look in the filter of the trans just to see whats in there. 
ill take some pics if possible, is there anything in particular that i should be looking out for from the valve body or anything else when the filter is off?



Kind Regards
Ashley


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*ABS*

hi guys i just pulled out the number 8 fuse which controls the ABS, but it made no difference. 
some lights came on, on the dash but no movement.

what would be the best move for me to try next?

thanks for all the help everyone


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The next thing I'd do would be to sort out the tiptronic switch. There are plenty of instructions in the forum on how to get to it, I don't have any links to them.


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> The third link will clearly answer the question of the shift plate being able to immobilise the transmission............


Hi Sacha - can you elaborate on this? I think there is a mix of problems in that thread. Post #4 by nascarpilot does suggest something like this... but it's hardly definitive.

Regards

M


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

invisiblewave said:


> The next thing I'd do would be to sort out the tiptronic switch. There are plenty of instructions in the forum on how to get to it, I don't have any links to them.


I'm now less convinced than I was about the tiptronic switch... but as Martin says it's hard to know what to do next without ruling it out. However having studied the threads about how to dismantle the shifter... I'm not enthusiastic about tackling it.. and I bet Ash isn't either - although he can speak for himself.

But I also agree with Sacha and Martin that it just doesn't seem like the mechanical bits of the box have failed... this feels much more like electronic gremlins...

I assume that the gearbox and its controller are less unique than other Phaeton bits and we stand a good chance of a VW dealer being able to diagnose reasonably competently what's going on? Although I hesitate to suggest that... I've not found one in the NW of England that I fully trust yet...

If we could entice Ian Entwisi for a view on the independent he's used, that would be interesting....

Regards

M


----------



## arthurgodsake (Nov 26, 2010)

Have ZF not got anyone competent in the UK who can have a look at it? Failing that, stick it on a trailer and take it to Herr Sagert. Might be cheaper in the long run.
Tim


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

invisiblewave said:


> The next thing I'd do would be to sort out the tiptronic switch. There are plenty of instructions in the forum on how to get to it, I don't have any links to them.


I'm now less convinced than I was about the tiptronic switch... but as Martin says it's hard to know what to do next without ruling it out. However having studied the threads about how to dismantle the shifter... I'm not enthusiastic about tackling it.. and I bet Ash isn't either - although he can speak for himself.

But I also agree with Sacha and Martin that it just doesn't seem like the mechanical bits of the box have failed... this feels much more like electronic gremlins...

I assume that the gearbox and its controller are less unique than other Phaeton bits and we stand a good chance of a VW dealer being able to diagnose reasonably competently what's going on? Although I hesitate to suggest that... I've not found one in the NW of England that I fully trust yet...

If we could entice Ian Entwisi for a view on the independent he's used, that would be interesting....

Regards

M


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

All you Phaeton experts... a long shot here... but could all this be LH battery related? I suspect not... but do we need to rule that out too?

M


----------



## arthurgodsake (Nov 26, 2010)

n968412L said:


> All you Phaeton experts... a long shot here... but could all this be LH battery related? I suspect not... but do we need to rule that out too?
> 
> M


I was wondering about that until people starting talking about the tiptronic thing. I get the odd PRNDS all lit up at once, but it goes away when you restart and that's down to my ancient LHS battery, which I still haven't got around to changing yet. Definitely worth investigating if not done already.
Tim


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

arthurgodsake said:


> I was wondering about that until people starting talking about the tiptronic thing. I get the odd PRNDS all lit up at once, but it goes away when you restart and that's down to my ancient LHS battery, which I still haven't got around to changing yet. Definitely worth investigating if not done already.
> Tim


Ah.. but yours still continues to drive....


----------



## arthurgodsake (Nov 26, 2010)

Yep, and I am not having any other problems with it, though I will definitely do it before the winter. BTW I want to get a VARTA AGM but I can't find anyone willing to install it for me. Local dealers will only fit their own and the specialist I tried hasn't come back to me. No one else obviously knows how to do it and I am worse than useless where that kind of thing is concerned.
Tim


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

If Ash was interested in getting at the Tiptronics... is this the best write up of how to get at it:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1683482?

Ta

M


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

arthurgodsake said:


> Yep, and I am not having any other problems with it, though I will definitely do it before the winter. BTW I want to get a VARTA AGM but I can't find anyone willing to install it for me. Local dealers will only fit their own and the specialist I tried hasn't come back to me. No one else obviously knows how to do it and I am worse than useless where that kind of thing is concerned.
> Tim


 I'm planning to replace at least the LH battery on my V6 TDI before winter.... I think I can do it myself.... I watched an expert do three at a battery changing party a couple of years ago... but you're a rather long way away to do it together...


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm not a fan of changing the LH battery just in case, especially given the cost and time involved. The worst case scenario is a few electronic gremlins, and in my experience, the source of most of the problems is actually the RH battery sucking juice from the LH battery. Changing the LH battery is a pain, there's nothing technically difficult, but it's pretty hard to get the new one in.

You can do a pretty quick test on Ash's LH battery with a multmeter, anything less than 12.3v starts to cause problems on mine. The RH battery is more difficult to test, even with 13.6 volts showing mine will flip the relay during starting, so I think the proper testing tool is required to check the cranking capacity. I also think it highly unlikely that a bad LH battery would stop the transmission from engaging, unless it's through some weird indirect connection we haven't seen before.


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Martin - I agree your logic... I was just clutching at straws...


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

n968412L said:


> Hi Sacha - can you elaborate on this? I think there is a mix of problems in that thread. Post #4 by nascarpilot does suggest something like this... but it's hardly definitive.
> 
> Regards
> 
> M





n968412L said:


> Hi Sacha - can you elaborate on this? I think there is a mix of problems in that thread. Post #4 by nascarpilot does suggest something like this... but it's hardly definitive.
> 
> Regards
> 
> M



Mike/Ash,
Post # 4 is conclusive because it describes very clearly the electronic disengagement of the transmission. "nascarpilot's" problem appeared to have occured only once (although we don't know what happened later on) but it definitely suggests that the trans can be immobilised (zero drive) for reasons of electronic connection failure, and that that failure can occur in the shift plate.

The first conversation ie: (F189) seems to confirm that the magnets in the shift mechanism can also be a source of trouble.

Given Ash's very curious symptoms - zero drive - I still think that it's a worthwhile effort to get at the shift mechanism.
I can understand that it may be more than anyone wants to take on (Ash or Mike) - I know the feeling. There are no Phaeton techs where I live (Canada) so I have come to rely on independant garages and, on occasion, Audi/Vw dealerships.
In my view a shift plate is a shift plate: they all work pretty much the same way. If you can, Ash, take the cosmetic chrome cover off - see if anything is obviously broken.
If that's not possible, then take your car to a local independant that works on German cars, or, even a VW/Audi dealer. Give them very tight direction on what you want done....... ie: remove, inspect and REPORT back to you on the shift plate mechanism. I wouldn't be surprised if the shift plate has been a problem for Touareg and/or A8 owners. Better yet, phone first....... tell them what you want them to do. You may find a shop/dealer that has experience of the problem and they may share some vital information...... what do you have to lose?

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

n968412L said:


> If Ash was interested in getting at the Tiptronics... is this the best write up of how to get at it:
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1683482?
> 
> ...


Mike/Ash,
The info in that link is useful (although the seat doesn't have to be removed). Clearly it is not possible to lift just the chrome plate.

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Ash,

Please can you tell us whether your car has a 5-speed gearbox or a 6-speed? Earlier 3.2 VR6s have 5-speed, later have 6-speed.

Chris


----------



## arthurgodsake (Nov 26, 2010)

n968412L said:


> I'm planning to replace at least the LH battery on my V6 TDI before winter.... I think I can do it myself.... I watched an expert do three at a battery changing party a couple of years ago... but you're a rather long way away to do it together...


I could be nearer, my family lives in Lancashire. So I could combine with a visit to them. September might be a good time.
Tim


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Paximus said:


> Hi Ash,
> 
> Please can you tell us whether your car has a 5-speed gearbox or a 6-speed? Earlier 3.2 VR6s have 5-speed, later have 6-speed.
> 
> Chris


Hi chris I believe it's the 6 speed box.
I have just had mike round and we have scanned the car a good few times ( he will post the results)
Where abouts is the fuse box in the plenum? 

Ash


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Dear Phaeton experts... here is scan of Ash's car taken this morning. 


Saturday,14,June,2014,10:15:51:37747
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 License Plate: SH54EKL
Mileage: 190440km-118333mi Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton (2002 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 Mileage: 190440km/118333miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 022 906 032 AK HW: 
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6239 
Coding: 0000133
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 54AC72DBF4683CBE6FF-513C

2 Faults Found:
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - MIL ON
18034 - Powertrain Data Bus 
P1626 - 008 - Missing Message from TCU - Intermittent
Readiness: 0010 1001

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
Part No SW: 09L 927 760 D HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09L 3,2L VR6 1702 
Coding: 0000101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

1 Fault Found:
18161 - Tiptronic Switch (F189) 
P1753 - 000 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 4
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 190442 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2064.00.00
Time: 00:00:00

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 736 /min
RPM: 0 /min
RPM: 0 /min
(no units): 23.0
(no units): 30.0
Temperature: 72.0°C
T.B. Angle: 0.0°


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008366
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927491683465E5-5120

No Faults Found
or DTCs not supported by controller
or a communication error occurred

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 N HW: 5WK 470 21
Component: Kessy 6610 
Revision: 66105312 Serial number: VWZ3Z0D1277697
Coding: 0004328
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E2B7-513C

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 4E0 905 852 D
Component: ELV 1834

1 Fault Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 007 P
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0400004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2648F81392747E2EC1B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 H
Component: Climatronic D1 2021 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

1 Fault Found:
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 H
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5101 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 00666 210 103711
VCID: 2F661D37BD8E3F6632D-513C

1 Fault Found:
01494 - Bulb for Parking Lamps; Left (M1) 
010 - Open or Short to Plus

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 E
Component: 0H Airbag 8.4E+ H10 0935 
Coding: 0012360
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 254AFF1FEF727536C81-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 D
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000031
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E580033BA84366E39B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 981 T
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0521 
Coding: 0007411
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-5120

1 Fault Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0E45E4BE030E09EEB7-513C

1 Fault Found:
01315 - Transmission Control Module 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C83813D2F43E2E81B-5178

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553-V2.clb
Part No: 3D0 907 553 C
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C3V0 1121 
Coding: 0005521
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 2756F517957E6726FAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605 
Coding: 0000060
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2240E403FE5C820EAD3-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E7D63517D5FE2726BAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
Component: HSG 0101 
 Coding: 0000034
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 336E114751A61B86565-FFFF

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D2 959 701 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D2 959 702 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0201

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0201

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0201

Subsystem 5 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 465 A
Component: 08K-AUDIOVERST 0112 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 1F46EDF7CD2EAFE682D-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No: 3D2 955 120 
Component: Front Wiper 3000 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: DFC62DF70DAE6FE642D-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
Part No: 3D0 915 181 C
Component: Batteriemanagement 2700 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday,14,June,2014,10:56:56:37747
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 License Plate: SH54EKL
Mileage: 190440km-118333mi Repair Order: 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton ash (2002 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 15 16 17 19 29 34 36 38 39 46 47 68
71

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 Mileage: 190440km/118333miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 022 906 032 AK HW: 
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6239 
Coding: 0000133
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 54AC72DBF4683CBE6FF-5120

1 Fault Found:
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow
Readiness: 0010 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
Part No SW: 09L 927 760 D HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09L 3,2L VR6 1702 
Coding: 0000101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

1 Fault Found:
18161 - Tiptronic Switch (F189) 
P1753 - 000 - Implausible Signal
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 190442 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2064.00.00
Time: 00:00:00

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 672 /min
RPM: 64 /min
RPM: 0 /min
(no units): 23.0
(no units): 30.0
Temperature: 73.0°C
T.B. Angle: 0.0°


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008366
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927491683465E5-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 N HW: 5WK 470 21
Component: Kessy 6610 
Revision: 66105312 Serial number: VWZ3Z0D1277697
Coding: 0004328
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E2B7-513C

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 4E0 905 852 D
Component: ELV 1834

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 007 P
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0400004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2648F81392747E2EC1B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 H
Component: Climatronic D1 2021 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

2 Faults Found:
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective
01232 - A/C Compressor Regulator Valve (N280) 
009 - Open or Short to Ground

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 H
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5101 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 00666 210 103711
VCID: 2F661D37BD8E3F6632D-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 E
Component: 0H Airbag 8.4E+ H10 0935 
Coding: 0012360
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 254AFF1FEF727536C81-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 D
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000031
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E580033BA84366E39B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 981 T
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0521 
Coding: 0007411
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0E45E4BE030E09EEB7-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C83813D2F43E2E81B-5178

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553-V2.clb
Part No: 3D0 907 553 C
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C3V0 1121 
Coding: 0005521
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 2756F517957E6726FAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605 
Coding: 0000060
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2240E403FE5C820EAD3-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E7D63517D5FE2726BAD-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
Component: HSG 0101 
Coding: 0000034
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 336E114751A61B86565-FFFF

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D2 959 701 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D2 959 702 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0201

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0201

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0201

Subsystem 5 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 465 A
Component: 08K-AUDIOVERST 0112 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 1F46EDF7CD2EAFE682D-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No: 3D2 955 120 
Component: Front Wiper 3000 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: DFC62DF70DAE6FE642D-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
Part No: 3D0 915 181 C
Component: Batteriemanagement 2700 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------


Having cleared all the fault codes we are left with this:


Saturday,14,June,2014,10:28:10:37747
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212


VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 License Plate: SH54EKL
Mileage: 190440km-118333mia Repair Order: 


Chassis Type: 3D (3D - VW Phaeton (2002 > 2006))
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWZZZ3DZ58003235 Mileage: 190440km/118333miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No SW: 022 906 032 AK HW: 
Component: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1G 6239 
Coding: 0000133
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 54AC72DBF4683CBE6FF-513C

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0110 1101

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
Part No SW: 09L 927 760 D HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09L 3,2L VR6 1702 
Coding: 0000101
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 AK
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0047 
Coding: 0008366
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 6BDEC927491683465E5-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 N HW: 5WK 470 21
Component: Kessy 6610 
Revision: 66105312 Serial number: VWZ3Z0D1277697
Coding: 0004328
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 30641E4BA0B0209E2B7-5120

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 4E0 905 852 D
Component: ELV 1834

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 007 P
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0400004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2648F81392747E2EC1B-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 H
Component: Climatronic D1 2021 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 H
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5101 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 00666 210 103711
VCID: 2F661D37BD8E3F6632D-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 E
Component: 0H Airbag 8.4E+ H10 0935 
Coding: 0012360
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 254AFF1FEF727536C81-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 D
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000031
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E580033BA84366E39B-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 981 T
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0521 
Coding: 0007411
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 3874266B48C0F8DE637-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0E45E4BE030E09EEB7-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C83813D2F43E2E81B-5178

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553-V2.clb
Part No: 3D0 907 553 C
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C3V0 1121 
Coding: 0005521
Shop #: WSC 00792 210 89726
VCID: 2756F517957E6726FAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605 
Coding: 0000060
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2240E403FE5C820EAD3-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) 0001 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E7D63517D5FE2726BAD-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
Component: HSG 0101 
Coding: 0000034
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 336E114751A61B86565-FFFF

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3D2 959 701 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 3D2 959 702 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0201

Subsystem 3 - Part No: 3D0 959 703 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0201

Subsystem 4 - Part No: 3D0 959 704 D
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0201

Subsystem 5 - Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 465 A
Component: 08K-AUDIOVERST 0112 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 1F46EDF7CD2EAFE682D-513C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No: 3D2 955 120 
Component: Front Wiper 3000 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: DFC62DF70DAE6FE642D-5120

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
Part No: 3D0 915 181 C
Component: Batteriemanagement 2700 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 234EE107E1468B06A65-513C

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------


Further information.

The dashboard voltmeter showed 13V with the engine off, and not having run today. Engine running, 14V. Battery is original. I tested it with 100A load for 10s. Didn't dip below 12V... so although it's a venerable survivor, I'd say it's still OK.

There is definitely an issue with the tiprtonic selector. However this fault seems to have been standing since Ash bought the car - it's always always had PRNDS lit up ... and drove OK. 

When you put the selector into reverse, the engine hunts slightly, but there's no torque through the box at all. Putting it in D has no effect other than bringing up the tiptronic fault

Interesting that the first scan brings up lots of transmission control module faults.. but there are now none standing.

I'm sure Ash would welcome some more observations.

Thanks

Mike


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi all,
We are all wondering about the switch below the gear lever chrome plate, but perhaps the issue is also related to F125 switch in the mechatronic control module.
This switch informs the transmission control module and several other modules about the possition of the gear lever in order to perform some actions such as decoupling the transmission if the vehicle is stationary, turning on the reverse lights, etc.
Therefore, I wonder if the selector lever cable or rod is not set correctly and therefore the F125 switch is not operating right, whether there could be conflicting information about what the car is meant to do, and hence as a safeguard it is not moving at all. It could also correlate with the fault showing up when D is engaged, but not when the car is standing.
I hope it helps.

Gabriel


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> Hi all,
> We are all wondering about the switch below the gear lever chrome plate, but perhaps the issue is also related to F125 switch in the mechatronic control module.
> This switch informs the transmission control module and several other modules about the possition of the gear lever in order to perform some actions such as decoupling the transmission if the vehicle is stationary, turning on the reverse lights, etc.
> Therefore, I wonder if the selector lever cable or rod is not set correctly and therefore the F125 switch is not operating right, whether there could be conflicting information about what the car is meant to do, and hence as a safeguard it is not moving at all. It could also correlate with the fault showing up when D is engaged, but not when the car is standing.
> ...


Hi Gabriel thank you for your input. Is there any way to check if the cable or rod is set correctly? 

Ash


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Ash,
Unless someone here has a workshop manual, I would say that the best bet would be to pay a few quid, log onto ERWIN and download the required info.

Gabriel


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

This is a Measuring Value Block scan of my transmission: 

_
4,0,,

4,1,Transmission Fluid,Temperature (G93),Range: -40.0...+150.0 °C
Specification (Level Check): 30.0...50.0 °C (See Factory Repair Manual for Details!!!)
;38.0°C,Temperature,

*4,2,Selector Lever,Position,Range: P/Z1(P-R)/R/Z1(R-N)/N/Z2(N-D)/D/Z3(D-S)/S
;P , ,
*
*4,3,Multi-Function,Switch (F125),0010 = P
0011 = Z1 (between P/R)
0001 = R
0101 = Z1 (between R/N)
0100 = N
1100 = Z2 (between N/D)
1110 = D
1111 = Z3 (between D/S)
1101 = S*
*; 0010,Bin. Bits,
*
4,4,OBD-Info,,xxx1 = Engine Start recognized
xx1x = Warm-Up Cycle recognized
x1xx = Driving Cycle recognized
1xxx = Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) active
; 0101,Bin. Bits,
_
You could check the figures that you get out of MVB #4.2 and 4.3 in order to asess if the position sensor is reading the correct position of the gear lever.

Gabriel

P.S. And also MVB #11 to check the tiptronic witch F189.

*11,0,,
11,1,Selector Lever,Position,Range: P/Z1(P-R)/R/Z1(R-N)/N/Z2(N-D)/D/Z3(D-S)/S
;P , ,
11,2,Tiptronic Switch,(F189) Recognition,Range: M-Switch (Operated)/[No Display] (Not Operated)
; , ,
11,3,Tiptronic Switch,(F189) Up/Down,Range: Up Switch/Down Switch/[No Display] (Not Operated)
; , ,
11,4,Tiptronic Buttons,&& Shift Paddels,See Label File
; 00000,Bin. Bits,*


----------



## Phaeton_owner (May 17, 2014)

Gabs08PHTN said:


> Hi Ash,
> Unless someone here has a workshop manual, I would say that the best bet would be to pay a few quid, log onto ERWIN and download the required info.
> 
> Gabriel


I downloaded workshop manuals from Erwin, which one is necessary in this case? May be I could help.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

All info is welcome!

The 2004 3.2 VR6 Workshop manual suggests these simple procedures to see whether the gear selector lever is doing its job, electrically speaking. Presumably this is an end-to-end test of the same conditions that would be seen looking at the MVBs coming out of the selector slider switch assembly:


*Checking selector mechanism *
<OL><LI>The starter must not operate in the selector lever positions “S”, “D” and “R”.</LI><LI>On right-hand drive vehicles, the starter must operate in selector lever positions “P” and “N” only when the button in the selector lever knob is not pressed.</LI><LI>When travelling at speeds above 5 km/h and shifting into selector lever position “N”, solenoid for selector lever lock must not engage and block selector lever. Selector lever can be shifted into a driving gear.</LI><LI>When the vehicle is moving at speeds below 5 km/h (almost stationary) and the selector lever is shifted to position “N”, the solenoid for selector lever lock should only engage after about 1 second. Selector lever cannot be shifted out of “N” position until brake pedal is depressed.</LI></OL>
*Selector lever in “P” position and ignition switched on *
<OL><LI>*Brake pedal not depressed: *Selector lever is locked and cannot be shifted out of “P” position when the button is pressed. Solenoid for selector lever lock blocks selector lever.</LI><LI>*Brake pedal depressed: *Solenoid for selector lever lock releases selector lever. It is possible to shift into a driving gear. Slowly shift selector lever from “P” through to “S”, checking whether selector lever position in dash panel insert corresponds to selector lever position.</LI></OL>
*Selector lever in “N” position and ignition switched on*<OL><LI>*Brake pedal not depressed: *Selector lever is locked and cannot be shifted out of “N” position with the push button pressed. Solenoid for selector lever lock blocks selector lever.</LI><LI>*Brake pedal depressed: *Solenoid for selector lever lock releases selector lever. It is possible to shift into a driving gear.</LI></OL>
*Selector lever in position “D”, ignition and lights switched on*
*Shift selector lever into Tiptronic gate.<OL><LI>*The illuminated “D” symbol in the selector lever position display must go out and the “+” and “-” symbols must light up.</LI><LI>When the selector lever is shifted into the Tiptronic gate, the selector lever position display in the dash panel insert must change from “P R N D S” to “6 5 4 3 2 1”. 
</LI></OL>
*Selector lever position display *<OL><LI>Simultaneous illumination of all selector lever position display segments indicates that the gearbox is in gearbox emergency running mode.</LI><LI>Check and adjust selector lever cable</LI></OL>


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

There is a procedure for checking and aligning the 'Bowden' cable (if that is what it is called in this context) that connects the shift lever to the gearbox. The document pages are a little long to copy verbatim, but here's a paraphrased summary:


*To test by disconnecting the cable at the gearbox*
Put the lever in 'P'
Remove noise panel below engine
Pull the cable connector off the gearbox by hand
Move the lever from 'P' to 'S' - check that the cable termination moves freely
If it doesn't move freely, renew it.

*To put it back on and simultaneously test the alignment*
Move the lever to 'P'
Move the associated shaft on the gearbox to position 'P'. This is the position which locks 
the front wheels so they will not turn together in the same direction
Carefully push the cable termination back on to the shaft. Don't bend the shaft or you will never get it to work.
If it doesn't go on properly, adjust the cable length

There then follows a note about ordering a new cable. The termination at the gear selector lever end of the cable changed design from 3D0 713 023M to suffix N, but you can't tell which is fitted from the VIN, so you have to take off the selector lever trim cover and physically look at it to see what part to order.

After that there are three [?] procedures to adjust the cable, depending on whether you have suffix M or N or T. Basically, you have to move a bracket on the gearbox housing.


*Other*
A further adjustment concerns centring the gear shift selector lever mechanism in the gate by slackening three bolts to allow the unit to move, adjusting, then re-tightening.

Finally, the shift cable length at the gear selector can be adjusted if the gear selector lever mechanism was removed and replaced. This is done by putting the lever in 'S', undoing the cable clamp bolt one turn and putting the mechanism at the exact alignment for 'S'. This needs a long-ish socket extension, or VW tool T40031.



Chris


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*good phaeton technician in the manchester area*

Hi thanks for everyones help, however i think that the work needed from here is way above my skill and knowledge level, so could anyone recommend a mechanic that has phaeton experience in the north west of the uk
i have the mobile mechanic that i use coming on monday to have a look at the pan for the transmission and hopefully get the gear lever off to have a look to see if there is any obvious problems.
But i suspect that it will need someone who is trained by vw to get this problem fixed.
Im hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

Ash


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Ash,

You may wish to print off the information in the forum describing 'how not to break the gear selector slider' for your tech to review during re-assembly. This assumes that the slider isn't already broken or worn, although it seems likely that it is. 


As already linked in an earlier post, here is the thread that describes access to the selector mechanism (as part of a longer upgrade which is not relevant here):
Retrofitting Keyless Start to a North American Phaeton

Refitting the lever is described here:
Can't Get Shift Handle Back On - Help

and this thread has a photo of the part that easily breaks during re-assembly (post #6):
PRNDS Lights up or Unwanted "Move Selector to P" message


Personally I am convinced that your transmission problem is electronic or electrical, not mechanical, and may turn out to be in an unexpected area.

Chris


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

ashmarine2001 said:


> Hi thanks for everyones help, however i think that the work needed from here is way above my skill and knowledge level, so could anyone recommend a mechanic that has phaeton experience in the north west of the uk
> i have the mobile mechanic that i use coming on monday to have a look at the pan for the transmission and hopefully get the gear lever off to have a look to see if there is any obvious problems.
> But i suspect that it will need someone who is trained by vw to get this problem fixed.
> Im hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.
> ...





ashmarine2001 said:


> Hi thanks for everyones help, however i think that the work needed from here is way above my skill and knowledge level, so could anyone recommend a mechanic that has phaeton experience in the north west of the uk
> i have the mobile mechanic that i use coming on monday to have a look at the pan for the transmission and hopefully get the gear lever off to have a look to see if there is any obvious problems.
> But i suspect that it will need someone who is trained by vw to get this problem fixed.
> Im hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.
> ...


Ash,

Try contacting germancarsbolton.co.uk, they are an independant shop in your area. I don't have any experience with this shop in particular, but I do prefer an "independant" over a dealership. In my experience an independant will get to the heart of the problem as quickly as possible given the long-term benefit to themselves of having your custom. And, in most cases, the personnel have been trained by the manufacturers - typically in a dealership. But, unlike the dealership, they don't have to adhere to procedure regulation and other objectives that are required to feed the overhead of the organisation.
There may be other independant garages in your area that you can turn to if this one doesn't pan out. I used the search terms "VW Audi repairs Bolton England"...............
No matter which garage you choose, give them very specific instructions........ maybe even print off this entire Vortex thread so they can get a grip on what has been done so far to diagnose the problem.

Regards,
Sacha



Regards,
Sacha


----------



## entwisi (Feb 19, 2013)

I've used Volksmaster in Bury twice now, first time was the throttle body butterfly valve known weakness, charged me 650 all in to fix which is a lot less than dealer quoted, second time I suspected the power steering pipe had popped as per other known weakness, they found that a bolt on the side of the pump had worked loose for some reason after 9 years. they could easily have had me for a new pump at 400 quid + fitted but drained, tightened etc and charged me 50 quid... they also said if I needed to get a pump I shoudl look for one s/h and they will fit it when needed for 150...

I'd highly recommend them.

Ian


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*update inc pics etc*

Hi everyone,

today i feel like i made a bit of progress. i had a mobile mechanic over to check the tiptronic plate under the gear lever as this was the fault that was showing on the VCDS scan.
Anyway, once we got the gear lever off the plastic plate was completely broken.
After finding the 2 pieces we put them back together to test if it changed the PRNDS on the dash being lit up.
after a bit of fiddling we got the plastic plate back together and held it in place and it worked. for the first time since owning the car it showed the tiptronic numbers etc on the screen and moved into each gear without any problem.
However the car still didnt drive at all.

I will post links to all the pics at the end of this as i dont know how to upload them directly to this page.

After that i asked the mechanic to drain the oil from the filter of the gearbox, which he did. I have taken pics of the color of the oil (it was very nearly black)
however there wasnt any large pieces of metal etc in the sump or on the magnets. Im guessing that the oil in the gearbox has never been replaced so for 10 years it really wasnt bad (as far as i could tell anyway) but i have also taken pics of that.

Next we removed the sump case to have a look at the valve body. Once this had been done i asked the mechanic to take it off as on the side of the valve body it has (kind of buttons) im assuming these are the valves. well most of them were springy and felt okay but a couple of them were quite loose. I have taken a couple of pics so u can see what i am referring to.

my next plan is to take the valve body to a transmission shop to test if possible??

http://s877.photobucket.com/user/ashmarine2001/library/?view=recent

i think that will link to my photobucket folder, please ignore the pics of fish and corals.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 6, 2012)

ashmarine2001 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> today i feel like i made a bit of progress. i had a mobile mechanic over to check the tiptronic plate under the gear lever as this was the fault that was showing on the VCDS scan.
> Anyway, once we got the gear lever off the plastic plate was completely broken.
> ...



Ash,
It would appear that you are very much on the right track! Have you disabled/deconnected the LPG???
From the look of things in the photos, the core of the transmission is happy. The valve body connection pins look nice and clean (free of corrosion) so, if it is reinstalled correctly, you should be fine there. A couple of loose solenoids in the valve body is not surprising either. They'll want looking after, surely........ so, when you are ready to have the valve body tested/overhauled, go to sonnax.com click on "Connect with Sonnax" then on "Where to Buy"......... you'll find 4 outlets in England to choose from. In the meantime though, don't be worried about putting the ATF and VB back in as they are - just until you have finished diagnosing the problem.
I'd focus on the electronics still........ another scan might be useful. Now that you have "lights" for gear selection you may need to look deeper into the shift unit. In doing so you may find a broken connection, or something else causing - one wonders how and why that plastic shift guide came adrift of itself?
There are members who are very good at using the scanning equipment...... I am not one of them. But I wonder if there is a way to test or recycle the shift plate electronics ie: like you would the climate control through the VCDS/VAGCom???

Regards,
Sacha


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Ash - glad to see you're making some progress....

But beyond my experience now to advise you... the pictures of coral and fish make more sense to me than all the engineering....

I imagine it's not a bad sign that there are no bits of gear tooth to be seen... and I think I've read somewhere that the valve body can be replaced - or at least serviced.... but that's assuming that would help.

I hope somebody with some knowledge can add something here.

Regards

Mike


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

n968412L said:


> Hi Ash - glad to see you're making some progress....
> 
> But beyond my experience now to advise you... the pictures of coral and fish make more sense to me than all the engineering....
> 
> ...


Hi guys, the mechanic had a good look at the gear mechanism and said everything appeared normal. ie no obviously broken parts etc.
could the solenoids being a bit loose disable the transmission altogether, ie stop it from driving altogether.
the gear lever hasnt yet been put back together as he is repairing the shift plate (with a bit of superglue) then is going to re fit it all for me.
i will take the valve body to a specialist tomorrow. 
What tests will they run on it? would it be worth re fitting once refurbed (confirmed working properly) and replacing the trans filter and replacing fluid? 
i just dont want to do that part too soon before i know that the transmission is definately not going to have to come out etc.

any more help and advice will be great, because its wayyyy beyond my experience and expertise at this point.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

What mileage is on the car? I think the problem will be that the mechatronic unit is almost bound to show signs of wear, especially if the fluid has never been changed, so it may be hard to rule it out as a cause. Did you run a scan after testing it with the working tiptronic switch?


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> What mileage is on the car? I think the problem will be that the mechatronic unit is almost bound to show signs of wear, especially if the fluid has never been changed, so it may be hard to rule it out as a cause. Did you run a scan after testing it with the working tiptronic switch?



the car has 118k miles on it. 
can the mechatronic unit be refurbished? 
i havent run any scans since doing the tiptronic switch


----------



## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

invisiblewave said:


> What mileage is on the car? I think the problem will be that the mechatronic unit is almost bound to show signs of wear, especially if the fluid has never been changed, so it may be hard to rule it out as a cause. Did you run a scan after testing it with the working tiptronic switch?


118833 miles, give or take the odd furlong...

Some plonker's run off with the VCDS cable... so Ash is bereft. I think this is a red herring.. .it's been broken for yonks. However it does need eliminating.

Ash - just shout if you need it back. I'll PM where I am tomorrow in case you want to pick it up.

Regards

M


----------



## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

n968412L said:


> 118833 miles, give or take the odd furlong...
> 
> Some plonker's run off with the VCDS cable... so Ash is bereft.
> 
> ...


hi mike i may just take you up on picking the cable up tomorrow if possible? ill collect the fixed piece of the switch tomorrow then re assemble it and do a scan....

ASH


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I think ZF in Dortmund do refurbish the mechatronic units, so I'm sure it can be done. The problem is you're spending money on something that might ultimately be a waste if the transmission turns out to be toast anyway.


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> I think ZF in Dortmund do refurbish the mechatronic units, so I'm sure it can be done. The problem is you're spending money on something that might ultimately be a waste if the transmission turns out to be toast anyway.


i was under the impression that if the gearbox was ''toast'' there would have more than likely been more evidence in the filter pan?
is there any sure way of checking whether the gearbox is okay or not or if any part of the gear box needs refurbing or replacing. it seems really unlikely that the whole gearbox would need replacing yet the gear box sump was relatively clean? 
but then again im no expert just working off common sense really.

am i best to just get this car taken to a transmission specialist and let them have a good look at it and see what it needs etc? what happens if i do that and it turns out to be an electrical problem that doesnt require the gear box to be replaced or refurbed? 
this is where im getting conflicting opinions which is confusing me in what to do next....

what would everyone's next move be?


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

ashmarine2001 said:


> i was under the impression that if the gearbox was ''toast'' there would have more than likely been more evidence in the filter pan?
> is there any sure way of checking whether the gearbox is okay or not or if any part of the gear box needs refurbing or replacing. it seems really unlikely that the whole gearbox would need replacing yet the gear box sump was relatively clean?
> but then again im no expert just working off common sense really.
> 
> ...


I'd take it to someone who claims to be able to manage the whole car... there were a lot of odd errors in the scan relating to the electronics... Ian Entwisi posted re his good experience... they sound like the sort of guys who'd be able to follow this thread, pick the bones out of it and determine a sensible next move...

It's hard... 

There are risks with whatever course of action you take... my feeling would be to get someone who feels a bit obliged to share a bit of that risk with you... even if only by doing some better diagnosis than we're able to do.

And everything comes at a price...

Regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> am i best to just get this car taken to a transmission specialist and let them have a good look at it and see what it needs etc? what happens if i do that and it turns out to be an electrical problem that doesnt require the gear box to be replaced or refurbed?


Hi Ash,

From re-reading this whole thread, it seems that you are the only person who feels that the gearbox is probably mechanically defunct. Everyone else thinks, or at least would not be surprised if, it was still an electrical or electronics issue.

To summarise, with comments:

-- The car is LPG-capable (NB - some LPG conversion kits make a connection to the CAN-bus).
-- The gear change juddered for a few days (not inconsistent with interruption or delays to its CAN-bus messages).
-- The gearbox controller and ECU then put the car into limp-home mode (PRNDS all lit, 3rd gear and Reverse only).
-- Shortly after, the car had no drive engagement and you had it recovered on a flat-bed.

Scans were taken:
-- A scan showed serious data transmission errors have happened from time to time on the fast direct-wired bus that joins the ECU to the Transmission Controller, the ABS unit and the KESSY.
-- The CAN-Bus Gateway reported missing messages from the Transmission Controller (but not from the ECU or the ABS or the KESSY).
-- The ABS unit reported no communications from all of them (but maybe someone unplugged it before the first posted scan).
-- The Gateway reported CAN-bus errors with the central display (this seems to be a red herring, it is on a different bus wiring system and this can sometimes happen).
-- The scan did not report any failures by the transmission to act upon Controller instructions, such as stuck solenoids (it is capable of reporting these).
-- The scan reported a problem with the gear selector mechanism (this is common and usually has no impact, but it was relevant in your case).

Action was taken:
-- Dismantling the gear selector showed it to be broken (therefore sending false gear selection signals. The ECU is probably extremely averse to this situation. The fault may or may not now be repaired, we don't know because it has not been tested by following the Repair Manual test instructions and/or by monitoring the relevant MVBs using the scanner).
-- Dismantling the transmission mechatronics showed that its connector plug was clean and not corroded (your Tech is either very brave or very experienced - these units are assembled in a Clean Room and are static-sensitive).
-- The gearbox contained fairly clean ATF with no bad smells, and showed little evidence of gear or clutch shredding.


After some thought, I suggest that your car needs a Tech who has a scanner close by, has an electrical wiring manual, is capable of checking the wiring between the ECU/KESSY/ABS/Transmission controller/Gateway, knows what mechanical and physical wiring changes were made in the vicinity of the CAN-bus cabling during installation of the LPG kit, and can recognise and repair a corroded plug.

Since the Transmission Controller appears to be inside the gearbox oil pan in the 6-speed, removing the pan might have been a help. If in fact it is in there (I'm sorry, I can't make it out definitively from the diagrams), it has its own connector which would need inspection (again, according to the wiring diagrams; but perhaps it's integrated in the Mechatronics module). In a last resort, only after a lot more diagnosis, you could try replacing that controller.

However, it's conceivable that after replacement a dealer might have to re-program its security codes because it's on the transmission bus and must pass security checks with the other controllers (for theft prevention). On the bright side, there are docs that suggest that one unit (only) can be changed without doing this. Perhaps others here can comment.


I hope this helps re-assure and gives a glimmer of (financial) light in the tunnel! I feel you have moved considerably in the right direction.

Chris


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

Paximus said:


> Hi Ash,
> 
> From re-reading this whole thread, it seems that you are the only person who feels that the gearbox is probably mechanically defunct. Everyone else thinks, or at least would not be surprised if, it was still an electrical or electronics issue.
> 
> ...


hi chris

thankyou so much for that, i am going to print your summary out and take the car to a specialist and see what they can diagnose, using your notes as guidance.
I will have a ring around this morning and try and find a suitable VW specialist that is willing to do some investigating for me.
I will of corse keep you all updated as to what they say etc.

Kind Regards
Ashley


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Excellent summary Chris. I think the only thing that I think is not factual is that the box ever went into limp mode. If I understood Ash correctly, in the two months he'd had the car, until the troubles he's documented, the only evidetn problem with the transmission was that PNRDS was lit up all the time and the tiptronic didn't shift. 

Regards

M


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks Mike, correction noted!

Chris


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*filter kit and ATF fluid*

hi guys im going to have the filter changed on the gearbox and refilled with ATF fluid
then i am going to have the car put on a flat bed and taken to volksmaster in bury

they seem my best bet after speaking to them on the phone today. 
they are obviously quite thorough as they have quoted 4 hours to diagnose the problem with my car.

Anyway im just looking now for a filter kit and the correct tranmission fluid, and need to know what size one to get etc for my car and thought best to ask here before i buy anything.

to recap my car is the 3.2 petrol 2004 phaeton

thanks in advance


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

You should get the fluid through the dealer using the VIN, it depends on the software level on the transmission controller. It would probably also be a good idea to have the dealer do the fill, it's supposed to be filled with the transmission at a specific temperature which they monitor as they're filling. Volksmaster should also be able to do it, I guess. Have you priced the fluid yet? It's not cheap! The best deal I was offered was $450 for a flush/fill.


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> You should get the fluid through the dealer using the VIN, it depends on the software level on the transmission controller. It would probably also be a good idea to have the dealer do the fill, it's supposed to be filled with the transmission at a specific temperature which they monitor as they're filling. Volksmaster should also be able to do it, I guess. Have you priced the fluid yet? It's not cheap! The best deal I was offered was $450 for a flush/fill.


i have had a look on ebay and there are some suitable for my car there

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A343805-F...le_Oils_Lubricants_Fluids&hash=item35d40c903f

this is one of them but ill have to ring them tomorrow and check using my vin number exactly which one to get.
How much does it hold?

im just going to get it done before taking it to volksmaster and then let them run a full diagnostic test on the car.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

The 09L transmission, which might have build code GUK or HKP or HYW has a factory fill from empty of 9.8 litres. The drain-and-refill requirement of the 'planetary gears' (ie not including the final drive chambers) is listed as 3.0 litres.

Other information that passed by me while I was rooting around: your VIN number seems to have gearbox option code G0R (ZF 09L 6-speed for 3.2 VR6 engine BKL or BRK) and uses "mechatronics with software" (J217 Transmission Controller built into it) part number 09L 927 760D.

The ATF listed as a factory fill is still the one you posted, G 060 162. I note that the shop code of your Transmission Controller is scanned as WSC 00000 000 00000, rather than a known factory or dealer site code, which may mean that it has been overwritten at some time. So perhaps the ATF may have been updated together with the software or coding. But that is speculation on my part.

You can check if these build codes are the actual ones you have by looking at the sticker pasted inside the Owners Handbook or stuck on the floor of the boot. If they are wrong I'll try and refine the information.

Good luck with the diagnosis! 

Chris


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

*update on progress*

hi 

today i had a new transmission filter put on and gasket etc and refilled with ATF.
I also had the triptronic switch that was defective (broken in half) fitted back on which works fine now

BUT

still no drive

so i am having the car towed to volksmaster on monday for them to do a thorough diagnostics.

Hopefully im nearing the end of the saga now and will know shortly what the problem is. i stil suspect it needs a refurb on the gearbox, i have no theory why, i just have a feeling haha

anyway ill keep everyone posted on what volksmaster say and i will post up any scan results they give me etc 

ASH


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Good luck Ash - and keep us posted.

Regards

Mike


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Very sad we've not heard from Ash for a while... I fear bad news.....


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## ashmarine2001 (Jun 4, 2014)

n968412L said:


> Very sad we've not heard from Ash for a while... I fear bad news.....



hi mike

good and bad news really. 
Good news is my cars ready for me to pick up tomorrow. 
Bad news was that the gear box was buggered. i had snapped something inside the box itself. some sort of shaft.
i have had the gearbox repaired and reconditioned and apparently it is running perfect. 
i pick it up tomorrow morning as soon as my insurance company open so i can swap my insurance back onto the phaeton.

It cost me £1626 in the end which i thought wasnt too bad at all. i just hope now it gives me many more years of smooth driving as it has been off the road longer than on the road since i brought it )

ps well impressed with volksmaster in bury, i will defo be taking the car there to be serviced and any repairs that need doing. they werent able to do the repair on the gear box but the guy nathan was very straight with me and i appreciated that.

quite excited to use the triptronic function on the gearbox as i have never been able to use that before

ASH


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Well- that's really great news! Apart from the ££s of course.

But really surprised that something major inside the box... 

and thanks for the info about volkmaster... they're only 10 mins from me... so I might well get to know them.

Good luck

Regards

Mike


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