# 2.5 Intake Timing Chain Issues



## indybuell (May 7, 2010)

I have a 2005.5 MK5 Jetta. It has a grand total of 71k miles on it. The CEL recently came on, and through a P0016 error. Cam and Crank timing sensors reporting an error. I took it in. Well, the timing chain has totally worn down the gear on the intake cam shaft. The tensioner is all the way out, and the chain is stretched beyond use. This is screaming engineering fail. Has this happened to anyone else? I took it to a well respected local euro garage, and paid $3k to have them fix it. They replaced the timing chain, all of the guides, gaskets, chain, and gears. It runs like a champ now, but I shouldn't have had to drop $3k on a 5 year old car that has been impeccably cared for. 

Would love to know if this is happening to anyone else, and if there is an active recall or case with VW, or class action suit starting. I want my $3k back.


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## DCLarios (Feb 18, 2010)

That's very unfortunate. Me and my wife each own Jetta's. I had an '07 I just traded in for a TDI and her's is an '08 both with the 2.5L. We both put over 80K mi on our cars in less than two years, and I haven't noticed any sign of timing chain issues. I'd like to think the 2.5L is a solid engine, but it does sound like you may have ended up with a lemon for an engine. There is no reason why the timing chain should have catastrophically failed like that, short of bad maintenance. I certainly hope your rebuild lasts you much longer. Good Luck!


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

most of the "affected" engines are the early 05s and 06s... you should consider an engine change.


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## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Yeah seems to be an increasingly common problem on the 05.5 and early 06 cars. You should call 1-800-822-8987 and politely explain your situation. You may qualify for at least a partial reimbursement since you're not that far out of warranty.


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## VDUBVWJETTA (Jul 22, 2009)

I have my Volkswagen service paper that my timing chain change at 104,000 mileage at VW dealership and it cost total $874.71 to get fix.


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## indybuell (May 7, 2010)

What all did they change out? For me, they had to replace the intake cam, the tensioners, the pulleys, the guides,. the gears, and the chain itself.


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## Nick_C (Aug 29, 2005)

Did any of you that have had this problems notice anything prior to needed the repair? My car is a 06 with around 80k KM and I'm noticing my motor seems to make a ticking notice at idle...Sounds like a sewing machine. Wondering if this is a sign of bad things to come.


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## EricRK (Nov 4, 2009)

My chain skipped almost a year ago at 73k miles, all said and done it was $1600+ in diagnostics to find the cause, dealer quoted $3200 for timing chain replacement, so instead I got a motor off car-part.com and had a local shop install it. Cheaper to put in a motor with 35k than to rebuild part of one with almost 75k. VW Corporate essentially said they'd never heard of timing chain problems on the early MKV's and instead of any kind of break, they offered me $500 off a purchase of a new VW.


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## rustlerdude (Aug 13, 2007)

I also have to vouch for the 05.5-EARLY 06 chain failures. They redesigned them in 06 and again in 08 to prevent this.


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

early 2.5l are plauged with valve train issues...get a new model...they've only gotta better.


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## Finkle56 (Feb 21, 2010)

I just had this happen recently, 2 days ago to be exact. I am wondering if I have a leg to stand on with VW. I mean it is about 10000km out of warranty, I bought it a year and a bit ago and this just happened. Is it worth complaining to vw about it and try to get them to do something being it seems this is a common theme of this engine? I think the worse part of all of this was when I bought this car I asked if there was any known issues with it, I guess a timing chain slip was considered a known issue then. 

Anyways, is it just less expensive for a replacement engine? What should I be looking for from the mechanic doing the swap? Sorry I am so pissed and a noob with cars that I am at a loss what to do outside of taking a shot gun to the engine and say " Now it is dead".


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## irishman13 (Feb 4, 2011)

This just happened to me. I have in being repaired at a local Euro garage with a quoted repair of $2,100.00. The problem is they don't know the extent of damage until they get into it so this could end up running closer to $3,000 all said and done. 

I filed a complaint with VW customer service and they pretty much said too bad but we will give you a $1,000 towards a new car which I told them to shove it. I have just under 79,000 miles on the car. I am friends with an owner of the local VW dealership and they told me this is a known problem that is why the timing chain was re-designed in '06 and again in '08. VW will not admit to it though. I filed a complaint with the BBB and the NHTSA hoping maybe it will spur a recall. I think the more people putting in complaints VW will eventually have to acknowledge the issue. I too am extremely pissed now that I am reading that this is becoming more of a problem with these cars all hitting 60K-80K. I have always made sure I kept up on the maintenance and even kept records of everything. This should not be happening to a car with only 79K on it.

ANYONE THAT HAS HAD THIS PROBLEM PLEASE FILE A COMPLAINT WITH THE BBB AND NHTSA! THE MORE THE COMPLAINTS THEY GET THE BETTER CHANCE OF SOMETHING BEING DONE ABOUT IT.


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## indybuell (May 7, 2010)

Definitely call VW of America and report the issue. The more of us that report it, the better chance of a recall or a TSB or some slim chance we can get our money back.

I would take it to the dealer and get a quote. I found a local Euro Garage that has a stellar reputation that took care of mine. Cost me $3200 when all was said and done. A new motor from VW installed can be close to $5k. 

Good luck.


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## indybuell (May 7, 2010)

irishman, 

Where do you complain to the BBB and NHTSA? Is it an online form, or a phone #?


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## irishman13 (Feb 4, 2011)

The BBB I did online. If you visit the website it is right on the home page. The NHTSA you can do online, I submitted mine over the phone. I don't know if anything will happen with this but I figure it can't hurt.


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## Finkle56 (Feb 21, 2010)

I just got the quote tonight from the garage it will be fixed at. He is putting in a 2008 engine with 80,000km on it for 2900 cdn. He will also be going over the timing chain and making sure it is perfect. 

I am going to be bring the whole engine ( the mechanic even is allowing me to use his truck) to an authorized VW dealer, which is where I was told to bring the car after I had asked them 4 times what I should do and on the last return call told me to get the car to the shop. Hey morons, I need my car for work so the repairs had started. I informed them that the engine will be deliveried once out and if they do not accept it, I will be deliverying to VW canada's door and let them know how I feel about this bullet proof engine of theirs that is costing me so much. I bought this car for its high rating and till now a solid vehicle. If it wasn't for the the dealer I bought it from being so good to me and helping navigate the bs of vw, i would not own another one. 

Funny thing about my call to vw today, after all that bs they still informed me about a minor recall on a wire harness for the airbag and asked when I would be bring it in to get looked at. Thanks for taking care of my main issue VW


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## irishman13 (Feb 4, 2011)

Finkle56, file a complaint with the BBB and NHTSA, the more complaints they get the more pressure VW will get about doing something. Hey the worst nothing happens which is what is being done now, or they could end up covering the repair costs.


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## Finkle56 (Feb 21, 2010)

Can I do that from Canada or what?


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## Nick_C (Aug 29, 2005)

Finkle56 said:


> I just got the quote tonight from the garage it will be fixed at. He is putting in a 2008 engine with 80,000km on it for 2900 cdn. He will also be going over the timing chain and making sure it is perfect.
> 
> I am going to be bring the whole engine ( the mechanic even is allowing me to use his truck) to an authorized VW dealer, which is where I was told to bring the car after I had asked them 4 times what I should do and on the last return call told me to get the car to the shop. Hey morons, I need my car for work so the repairs had started. I informed them that the engine will be deliveried once out and if they do not accept it, I will be deliverying to VW canada's door and let them know how I feel about this bullet proof engine of theirs that is costing me so much. I bought this car for its high rating and till now a solid vehicle. If it wasn't for the the dealer I bought it from being so good to me and helping navigate the bs of vw, i would not own another one.
> 
> Funny thing about my call to vw today, after all that bs they still informed me about a minor recall on a wire harness for the airbag and asked when I would be bring it in to get looked at. Thanks for taking care of my main issue VW


Extremely crappy deal man... Did you notice any warning signs before your motor went? How many KM on the car when it went? I only ask cause I'm sitting at 80km and I'm dreading this may happen to me.


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## Finkle56 (Feb 21, 2010)

Nick_C said:


> Extremely crappy deal man... Did you notice any warning signs before your motor went? How many KM on the car when it went? I only ask cause I'm sitting at 80km and I'm dreading this may happen to me.


The Check engine light came on and it had a rough start in the morning. It seemed like an ignition coil was going as I had the issue before. It ran normal after 15 seconds and that was it. That night engine was not starting at all. Saw the valves and they were bent in a nice c shape. So it went big but no real sign.


As for mileage, I had 153,000 km. I put 50,000 of that on myself but the rest was before. I bought it pre-loved as VW says. I guess pre loved means you better love your vw more. Get your timing chain inspected, it has no maintenance schedule so they may look at you funny but just say you have heard of it jumping. If they are any good they will look into it and inspect it. Funny that it isn't something that the 2.5 has for maintenance checking.


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## nitrodub16 (May 6, 2005)

Does anyone know when they redesigned the chain (i.e. VIN range?) I just recently bought an '06 with 61k and would rather change the chain before these issues rear their ugly faces!


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## indybuell (May 7, 2010)

From what I have been able to find out, all of the 06's were affected.

I would suggest spending some money on a couple of hours at a respectable Euro garage to pull the intake timing cover off, and see what the damage is if any. Another clue that I had is that when I was initially trying to figure out what the problem with the car was, there were some small bits of metal shavings in the oil. These turned out to be coming from the cam gear itself.


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## nitrodub16 (May 6, 2005)

Thanks for the info i will look into it and if i find anymore out i'll be sure to post it up:thumbup:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

guys, the chain isnt the issue.

however, the chain is what DOES the damage.

the guide and/or the tensioner fails, and the chain slips, and it messes up timing, and in the end, you have broken/bent valves and/or more


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## AtalayaBoze (Jul 1, 2011)

*118K - rough idle P0016*

So, my car threw code P0016 after we replaced the plugs yesterday. Now it has this horrible grinding on acceleration. I'm waiting for two dealers to call me back with quotes for the full service. Oh and both dealers VW customer care say they have never heard of this issue before but ma'am you have a wiring harness recall for the airbag that we can take care of when you come in. 

I've been so happy with my car until today.


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## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

AtalayaBoze said:


> So, my car threw code P0016 after we replaced the plugs yesterday. Now it has this horrible grinding on acceleration. I'm waiting for two dealers to call me back with quotes for the full service. Oh and both dealers VW customer care say they have never heard of this issue before but ma'am you have a wiring harness recall for the airbag that we can take care of when you come in.
> 
> I've been so happy with my car until today.


Bummer. The "we've never heard of this before" is a standard response, don't think it means the techs won't know exactly what's wrong. 

Definitely get the wiring harness fixed, but don't feel obligated to have the chain/guide issues fixed at the dealer if there are shops that specialize in VWs in your area.


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## Jayj (Jul 1, 2011)

The chain is a hit and miss issue, it does stretch as I have replaced maybe 10 as a dealer tech over a 5-6 year span. Usually it's just the upper chain that is the problem. Never saw any cam sprocket collateral damage though. Your issue must have been developing for quite a while. A bad sign might include a fairly Distinctive slapping noise against the chain cover that you can localize with a stethoscope or long screwdriver and a cam deviation/advanced fault. Considering how many 2.5 vw's were sold in North America, the number of issues are comparatively small. Every part on that car has an associated failure rate. Sorry you're going through the bull**** but it happens.


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## bryanp22 (Jun 27, 2005)

I am having this issue it seems for a second time. My 2005.5 2.5 is at the dealership today. It was replaced a little under 12,000 miles ago so we will see what they say on the parts warranty. Could this be because of the oil I use or the frequency that I change it? I use Mobile 1 0w40, and change it every 10,000 miles like the owners manual suggests. Anyone else having better luck with a different oil or should I start changing it at 5,000 miles?


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## indybuell (May 7, 2010)

Thats what they all say. Let us know how much it costs you. My guess is atleast $2k.


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## bryanp22 (Jun 27, 2005)

The dealership called yesterday saying VW would be covering the repair of all parts relating to the timing chain replacement. If anything else comes up during that process he'd call and let me know.


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## Trench (Nov 20, 2008)

I own a '06 Jetta (that is now at 90k miles) and when i heard about the timing issue i started researching it. Mostly reading forum posts and reading a few consumer reviews that dealt with the timing, it seems that the timing issue does occur more with people that follow the 10k mile service. I noticed that my dealer a couple years ago went from a 10k service interval to recommending a 5k mile service interval.

I dont remember where i read it (it most likely was on BTOG) that many jetta owners that do their oil analysis say they dont recommend going over 5k miles and at most they would change oil at 7.5k miles.

My guess is the early jettas are affected more by a higher (10k mile) oil change interval than the later ones due to the redesign in the later models. So if you have a 05-06 2.5l, drop to a 5k mile service if the cost of doing that doesnt hurt you in the wallet to much.


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## indybuell (May 7, 2010)

bryanp22 said:


> The dealership called yesterday saying VW would be covering the repair of all parts relating to the timing chain replacement. If anything else comes up during that process he'd call and let me know.


 What? What? 

How many miles did you have? Do you have a reference number?


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## dissonance (Sep 24, 2004)

Yes, any more info on VW owning up to their shoddy engineering please!

I am trying to help my mom with her 2005.5. I need to find someone who has undertaken this repair themselves so I can try to save her about $1500 that she really doesn't have. Have been unable to locate a DIY or FAQ and I know I will need the RB manual anyway, but I am trying to conceptualize if this is something that I can pull off in 3 days next week. I have above average competence with car repair and a reasonable facility to work in, but obviously can't go into this one without all the info. Any tips please! For the story of this incident keep reading...

My mom is original owner of '05.5 Jetta 2.5, regular maintenance, 63k miles. She got a camshaft position sensor error about a week and a half ago around the same time it started to make a clattering nose at low load and low RPM. She had the code pulled and cleared and it didn't return. The next day my brother went by to check it out and he told her there was definitely something wrong and that she should go nowhere but carefully the few miles to the dealer. I checked it out and it clatters on start up (something that she has complained about several times and been told by dealer is normal on these cars since new). It idles smooth, then will shake intermittently. The sound can be produced by raising RPM to maybe 2k or so in park, and at low load as it passes through that range. The dealer told her that the timing chain is stretched and needs replaced. I told her that she really ought to call VW because there should be no good reason that a critical major engine component fails like that and at that mileage. VW apparently said they'd pay for 25% of the bill, or give her $1500 off a new VW. 

I also told her to try to blame the dealer, since a year ago when she went to have the coils replaced they ended up replacing the entire cylinder head. :what: Yes, that's right. She went to have the coils replaced and they found that the plugs also needed replacing. Then they called her and said it would be a little while as they were ordering a new head from VW. I read the tech notes on her invoice and it said something to the effect of "Check engine light on. Verified concern, removed (whatever) and found camshaft (adjuster thingy whatever) pin sheared off and intake cam not turning; replaced (whole damn cylinder head). Then of course they sent VW a bill for something over $5000.  Soooo... she drove the car in perfectly operational for a coil recall and they "found intake cam not turning"? WTF? If I was in to conspiracies I would say the dealer is trying to scam some $$$ from VWoA. They offered no explanation, and she didn't understand enough about it to ask more. Anyway... their response to this new problem is that since it is hydraulically tensioned it couldn't be anything they did that caused this failure. 

Bottom line they told her:

"Hello Ms. (My Mom)
> Here is the estimate to replace timing chains $ 2296.54 and VW will pay 25% which equals to $ 574.13 , Your cost $ 1722.41 plus tax , Waterpump is leaking and to repair and
> replace waterpump = $ 493.00 plus tax . Please let me Know if you want it repaired ,We still need to order parts . Thank you so much .
>
>(Service Dude)

So, I'm pissed at VW, pissed at the dealer, and really pissed that they want an extra $500 to replace a $100 water pump when they are already in there (or am I wrong about that?).

So my thoughts so far are:
1. I understand basic engineering principals and I know that everything has a rate of failure but it seems like in modern automobiles this should be exceedingly rare and therefore VW can afford to step up to the plate here. Unless thousands of cars are affected in which case they might try to dodge the issue.
2. Without knowing intimate details of previous work I don't know what the dealer might have done, but I at least blame them for repeatedly telling her that clattering valve train noises are normal in these cars (are they?) ...and for being a sheisty dealer overall to begin with.
3. I don't want to spend a week of my time sorting this out, but worst case I can get all of the parts from ECS for $500 an RB DVD for $90 and I'll have an excuse to buy a couple more tools. Then lock myself in the garage for 3 days and I can probably pull it off for $1500 less even with VW's discount.

Thoughts?


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

well for one if you can't get the dealer to cover the repair is there another dealership within a reasonable distance to take it to? you can always get a second opinion. i would also call VWoA and file a formal complaint or open a case. if VWoA starts giving you a hard time i would just throw it out there that you're considering taking them to court if its not covered. especially if you can find the paperwork or case # for VWoA footing the bill for the guy above. 

the best thing you can do is call them ASAP to get the ball rolling, as it may take a while if they do decide to cover it. Also, if you have the dealer do the work it'll be easier to document the cost of the job should VW decide to reimburse you for the job. If you do it yourself, yes you'll save a bunch of money, but its a whole other story trying to get reimbursed for parts you just bought online to get the job done.

what a bummer man, i really feel for you. in the future you might want to let your mom know to try and stay away from the first generation of a new vehicle, as there are ALWAYS problems that come up and get worked out by the time the car has been produced for 2-3 years. another strong case in point is the cam follower issue on the 2.0T FSI...the common problem was fixed after two years and 08+ models are good to go (TSI).


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## nate122 (Mar 28, 2008)

So this only applies to 05.5-06 jettas?


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## cuban11182 (Nov 19, 2009)

Sorry to hear about all the people with timing belt issues. I have an 06 with 100,257 miles on her and so far I guess I've been lucky. I do change the oil myself at the 10,000 mile interval with Mobil 1 0W40 but plan to change it now at 5,000 since I'm over 100,000. 

Hopefully everything works out with the people who are having problems. So far I've been happy with the car. I'm hoping this car lasts me for years to come.


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

Same here. Last week I too got the P0016 fail after 92,000 miles, and a price of $2,200 for labor plus additional cost for parts at the dealership, which I am not going to pay. Funny is that when I spoke with VW, they offered me a $1,500 voucher. So first they gave $500, then it went up to $1,000, and now my voucher.

They also claimed they never heard of this issue, which make me a very disappointing guy that always promoted VWs.

Thinking of trading it in......


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

change the engine, and have a happy car for hundreds of thousands of miles.


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## Bigfoot1 (Aug 7, 2010)

Happened to me at 64000k (cost $~3000). Then again about 9 months after they replaced it. The second one was covered under warranty.

I have just filled out the NHTSA complaint.


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## PetrosVW (Dec 29, 2003)

My wife's 05.5 Jetta 2.5 has 64,000 miles on it and has always had a rattle at cold start that goes away after a minute. The dealer told me it is common with this motor and it was nothing, probably a heat sheild or something. Now I have the check engine light and a "Camshaft Position sensor" code, and the car has no power. I hope I have better luck with the dealer. I will be calling them tomorrow. I have a great mechanic, unfortunitly, he is old school VW and Porsche and is not familiar with the 2.5 motor. If the dealer gives me crap he will get a shot at it.


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## quaudi (Jun 25, 2001)

05.5 with 130K on the odo, never a problem except for three scheduled maintenances and one brake pad change. Wasn't even aware of this issue until I stumbled on this thread.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

its not really an issue, very very few cars had the problem even within the years it seems to affect. don't worry about it. 130k is pretty good, your chains are good to about 150k-200k anyway. you will start to hear what sounds like marbles in your motor when the guides start to fail and need servicing, completely unrelated to the failure we were talking about here.

typically you have a good 20-30k of noise before the guides will let go completely, not that its worth risking.

the chain only needs to last as long as the head gasket, seals, vacuum pump, oil pump, water pump, clutch, etc. its all kind of meant to go poof at the same time and isn't a bad idea to get other things replaced while doing a chain job, to save a fortune on labor,


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## siyun (Nov 4, 2011)

I have 05.5 too making the same rattling noise at cold start and idle smoothly and shakes once in a while. I do not have a CEL, and it drives fine.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

siyun that sounds like an old 2.5 :thumbup:

rattling at cold start is an oil pressure issue. i would start by running 5k intervals and using a good synthetic motor oil if you are not already. motors get old and make noise, especially vw cam motors!

the shaking is your shot motor mounts/built up carbon on intake valves and manifold. try replacing mounts and seafoam the motor or lucas oil upper cylinder treatment in gas tank.


send in a used oil analysis to blackstone labs and see if your motor is having any internal issues too. it is fun and informative, just a good insurance policy too.

if the noise isn't getting louder then you really don't need to worry about it though. just keep an eye on it.


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## TheZooKeeper (Jan 28, 2009)

Considering the maintenance interval recommendation is pretty much non-existant on the 2.5L for timing chains, I think you'd have a tough time getting VW to cover anything. Being out of warranty probably won't help the situation, either. Good luck for sure though.

To the people who've had issues, what are your oil change intervals like? Do you follow VW's recommended 10K? More? Less?


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## siyun (Nov 4, 2011)

tchilds said:


> siyun that sounds like an old 2.5 :thumbup:
> 
> rattling at cold start is an oil pressure issue. i would start by running 5k intervals and using a good synthetic motor oil if you are not already. motors get old and make noise, especially vw cam motors!
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for the information!:thumbup: The rattling noise is due to the cat warming program, it goes away after the program is done in 15 seconds or so. If I put it in drive before it finishes, the noise went away.

The car is at 46k and been running synthetic with 5k interval since I got the car. Did lucas oil treatment once, but felt no real differences.


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## 2pt5_20v_pwr (Jul 19, 2011)

Jayj said:


> The chain is a hit and miss issue, it does stretch as I have replaced maybe 10 as a dealer tech over a 5-6 year span. Usually it's just the upper chain that is the problem. Never saw any cam sprocket collateral damage though. Your issue must have been developing for quite a while. A bad sign might include a fairly Distinctive slapping noise against the chain cover that you can localize with a stethoscope or long screwdriver and a cam deviation/advanced fault. Considering how many 2.5 vw's were sold in North America, the number of issues are comparatively small. Every part on that car has an associated failure rate. Sorry you're going through the bull**** but it happens.


i asked a vw tech about this issue when I was getting the airbag recall done and he basically said the same thing... only a handfull of mkv 2.5s that he has ever seen have this issue


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

yeh we tell everyone this but they always freak out. internet forums make things seem bigger than they are. i mean i see how many modified rabbits in here yet on a daily basis? try weekly...

this issue isn't wide spread like the throttle valve body issue, cam follower issue, or any other VW issue. it is a doozy though.


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

You just gotta have luck with that. Remember that a forum for cars and such are being used a lot for problems, not to let people know you don't have issues with your car.


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## raB(o)Bit (Jun 30, 2007)

Is there any connection between the timing chain issue and this "pulsating" sound at idle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jTrCXwtkE


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## PetrosVW (Dec 29, 2003)

My wife's car has always had the cold start rattle also. Just the nature of a 2.5 L I don't know if it is the motor or the heat sheild behind the motor. It seems to be a different problem than the timing chain issue.


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## PetrosVW (Dec 29, 2003)

Jayj said:


> The chain is a hit and miss issue, it does stretch as I have replaced maybe 10 as a dealer tech over a 5-6 year span. Usually it's just the upper chain that is the problem. Never saw any cam sprocket collateral damage though. Your issue must have been developing for quite a while. A bad sign might include a fairly Distinctive slapping noise against the chain cover that you can localize with a stethoscope or long screwdriver and a cam deviation/advanced fault. Considering how many 2.5 vw's were sold in North America, the number of issues are comparatively small. Every part on that car has an associated failure rate. Sorry you're going through the bull**** but it happens.


If you saw 2 a year and my local dealership has seen this this issue as well a few times( Ispoke to a tech today), and another local mechanic has said the same thing, then this problem is not that small. Who knows how many people are having this problem and don't say anything, they just pay the bill. 

I have read people paying around $3000. I know every case is different, depending on how long and hard the car may have been drivin with the problem.

About how much did it cost the customers atyour dealer?

This is a real deterent from buying another new VW.


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## PetrosVW (Dec 29, 2003)

There are 65k miles on a car me and my wife bought new. I have made sure the oil was changed every 3-5K miles, serviced properly, and all recalls taken care. There is no reason I should have to pay $3000 for this issue. I will get a quote from the dealer after my VW mechanic has found the exact problem and file a complaint with as many VW reps as I can until this problem is taken care of. 


If you have 05.5 - 06 Jetta 2.5L and you have documented proof of the issue. Please reply to this post with your name, VIN, details of repair, and cost.


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## Bolkswagen (Jul 21, 2007)

*Same problem (I think) - should I take it in now?*

Hi,

I have been reading through this thread and am becoming increasingly afraid I may have the same problem. I've already dumped $2,100 ($1k my own fault) into this car, and don't know what I would do if I was hit with a $2-3,000 bill.

I have a 2005.5 (not sure, it was manufactured in July '05, sold Oct '05, title says 2006) Jetta 2.5L with 153,000 miles. I bought it at 113,000. 

My check engine light came on last week on a cold(er) night when I started the car up and it was running rough. The check engine light then flashed until I started driving the car (but stayed on). The check engine light would flash and the car would idle rough at any stop I came to. The next day, it did the same thing for my dad. I didn't drive it for a couple days, and then just drove it Monday, the light was still on, but no rough idling, and no flashing CEL.

The CEL came on in the spring, and showed a code of PO411 Emission Air Pump, which my mechanic told me runs for 10-15 seconds when it does a cold start, and does not make a big difference (apparently it's loud, but I don't notice). I decided to ignore it, since summer was coming, so we reset the light. 

So, this time I assumed I would just replace the Emission Air Pump, but I brought it in and it had three codes. PO411 Emission Air Pump (knew about), PO011 Cam Sensor Code, and All Cylinder misfire code. I had the spark plugs replaced, and am thinking about holding off on the Pump, since it doesn't really seem to be a big deal, but am a bit concerned about the Cam Sensor Code. I know other people listed the code as PO016, so I am not sure if this is a completely unrelated code, or not?

Could someone please let me know, (a) Do I take it in immediately for the Cam Sensor Code?, and (b) Do you think this is the same problem as listed above (timing chain and/or cam follower, etc)?

I really appreciate your help, I'm kind of freaking out, because $2-3k is not even remotely close to in my budget right now.

Thanks!


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## Bolkswagen (Jul 21, 2007)

*Emissions Air Pump*



siyun said:


> Thanks a lot for the information!:thumbup: The rattling noise is due to the cat warming program, it goes away after the program is done in 15 seconds or so. If I put it in drive before it finishes, the noise went away.
> 
> The car is at 46k and been running synthetic with 5k interval since I got the car. Did lucas oil treatment once, but felt no real differences.


Mine has the same issue with the emissions air pump, Siyun! I can't believe yours is at 46k with that issue mine's at 150k, but I got it with 113k, so I'm not sure what the prev owner put up with.

Did you end up replacing it? Have you had any additional issues caused by that part, or just the noise?


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## Bolkswagen (Jul 21, 2007)

*Anyone?? Please help!!!!*

I don't want to start a new thread, that seems to be the trend, though....I'd like some advice, as I do not know much about the mechanics of cars....I'm taking it in next week, and I have to decide if I want him to replace/check the chain or not. 

Please help! Right now all I am doing is :banghead:


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

Not sure what advise to give you. I decided to replace the motor as the dealer gave me the quote of $2,200 plus parts.

It depends what your options are; cost of repair, change motor, or get another car. I got a $2,000 voucher from VW if I buy another car, but decided to be better off to get the motor.

If you are not sure what the problem is, let the dealer check it and go from there.....


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## BlackRabbit2point5 (Sep 6, 2007)

if you have the bad stuff replaced the replacement parts will be revised parts and you shouldn't have issues again... but we are talking about the company that put out the vr6 here. If you log mileage like that you probably shouldn't be driving a VW because lets face the facts, European cars in general are a headache to own but a pleasure to drive.


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## jf117 (Nov 16, 2011)

*2005.5 jetta*

Same here .I brought car in for check engine light at 64k and asked about timing chain issues.I was assured there was no problem 4 months later t chain stretched and bent the valves.
Joe Feudi 3vwsf71k05m629811


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## mk5RABt (Jul 28, 2008)

jf117 said:


> Same here .I brought car in for check engine light at 64k and asked about timing chain issues.I was assured there was no problem 4 months later t chain stretched and bent the valves.
> Joe Feudi 3vwsf71k05m629811


did your local dealer help at all?


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## jf117 (Nov 16, 2011)

*2005 timing chain*



mk5RABt said:


> did your local dealer help at all?


zero from dealership $1000 voucher for a new car from VW


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## Tlag (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm a 1.8T guy, my sister is looking at a 2007 Jetta with the 2.5 I5.
I've been trying to get up to speed on the I5, and seems like the timing is the big risk issue.
I see many post that say it is the 05.5s and 06s that are most at risk, but how safe is a 2007?
How hard is it to inspect the chain / cam? Is that a reasonable thing to ask a dealer to do prior to buying the car?
If I can't get some assurances, I think I'm going to tell her to wait till she can find a VR6, no offense to the I5 forum, but I wouldn't suggest she get a 1.8T like mine either, its too unforgiving.


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

Tlag said:


> I'm a 1.8T guy, my sister is looking at a 2007 Jetta with the 2.5 I5.
> I've been trying to get up to speed on the I5, and seems like the timing is the big risk issue.
> I see many post that say it is the 05.5s and 06s that are most at risk, but how safe is a 2007?
> How hard is it to inspect the chain / cam? Is that a reasonable thing to ask a dealer to do prior to buying the car?
> If I can't get some assurances, I think I'm going to tell her to wait till she can find a VR6, no offense to the I5 forum, but I wouldn't suggest she get a 1.8T like mine either, its too unforgiving.


You SHOULD be fine with the 2007. It's not known to be an issue with that year.


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## Tlag (Jan 23, 2010)

seanmcd72 said:


> You SHOULD be fine with the 2007. It's not known to be an issue with that year.


I was feeling better until I notice the caps on "SHOULD"  
No such thing as sure thing, but I guess I'm going to need some time to get comfortable with it.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

I dont remember seeing an 07+ with a failed chain...

sent from tapatalk


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## Tlag (Jan 23, 2010)

*Test drive*



thygreyt said:


> I dont remember seeing an 07+ with a failed chain...
> 
> sent from tapatalk


Just got back from taking a quick drive in it. Very nice, about 55K miles on it, looks like new in and out.

I did notice significant ticking from the engine when it was first started. Its about 35 F here today. Is that cold start ticking normal? I should have check the oil first, but didn't.


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## PetrosVW (Dec 29, 2003)

*VICTORY!!!!*

I finally took my wife's car into the dealership. They confirmed my worst fears and said it would cost $2800. I called VW of North America and politely voiced my issue with paying for the repair, that the failure was premature (chain should last 100k), it was a design problem, I mentioned that I reported a noice while the car was in warranty and it was dismissed as normal to that motor, that I have talked to several people with the same problem, I have a garage with a 45 year VW master mechanic, and my local car club puts on the largest attending car show is the USA. The girl told me she could not do anything because it was out of warranty. I told her that I know she is following policy, but I would not accept that answer. I asked for her supervisor and explained everything again to her. She told me a regional customer care case worker would contact me. When the regional worker called me back, she said *the cost of repair would be covered in full*.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

PetrosVW said:


> *VICTORY!!!!*
> *the cost of repair would be covered in full*.


congrats! this is as it should be.


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

Awesome deal. I just got done replacing the engine, and although I have now an engine with 17,000 miles on it versus 93,000 miles, I wished I could have simply gone to the dealership to get my problem solved.

On the other hand, the dealership in Atlanta, GA sucks, so I am not sure what was best.....

Congrats again, and hopefully they will remember now that there is a problem.


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## PetrosVW (Dec 29, 2003)

Which dealer in ATL? Jim Ellis? I have had a bad expierence there.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Tlag said:


> I'm a 1.8T guy, my sister is looking at a 2007 Jetta with the 2.5 I5.
> I've been trying to get up to speed on the I5, and seems like the timing is the big risk issue.
> I see many post that say it is the 05.5s and 06s that are most at risk, but how safe is a 2007?
> How hard is it to inspect the chain / cam? Is that a reasonable thing to ask a dealer to do prior to buying the car?
> If I can't get some assurances, I think I'm going to tell her to wait till she can find a VR6, no offense to the I5 forum, but I wouldn't suggest she get a 1.8T like mine either, its too unforgiving.


Never heard anything on these forums about an '07 having issues. Seems to be the '05.5s mostly.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

Hate to beat a dead horse but, I have some questions. 
I am the current owner of an 06 jetta 2.5 with 82k 

I am getting a new water pump due to small leak. 
If I have the timing chains, guides, and tensioners replaced, will that get rid of the chance of the infamous chain stretch issue? Should I replace the gears? 
Is there anything else I should have changed in order to save on labor?? Drive belts for sure. 


After reading further, should just replace the upper guides?


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

stupakjim said:


> Hate to beat a dead horse but, I have some questions.
> I am the current owner of an 06 jetta 2.5 with 82k
> 
> I am getting a new water pump due to small leak.
> ...


 I can't advise whether you should or shouldn't get the chains done, and I'm not up on the issue enough to know if there's any easy way to check for wear without tearing the car apart, but I can tell you that the timing chains are not a "while-you're-in-there" thing during a water pump job. It involves dropping the trans since the chains are on the opposite side of the engine as the accessories, whereas timing belts are on the accessories side.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

I completely understand that this isn't some diy shade tree job, sorry if it came off that way. I am having it done by a mechanic. Just looking for insight how to resolve the stretch issue before it happens to my motor. If this is something that I have to deal with forever with the early model 2.5 then I mine as well trade it in.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

No, I just meant that you won't be out paying for more labor if you don't get the chains done at the same time as the waterpump. 

You could do a little searching on how many miles people have on their early-model-year cars before they have issues, but I have to say that from what I've seen, if you've made it to 82k miles with no issues, I doubt you'll ever have any issues.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

From what I have read on vortex it is the upper guides that go first. I'm wondering if the issue was engineered out with newer parts.


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## VAGMeister (Sep 7, 2005)

Is this only a 05.5 - 06 Jetta issue? What about the 2006 Rabbit? Has anyone had problems with this model? Just wondering because I have an aging 2006 Rabbit and would like to avoid something like this. Thanks!


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

VAGMeister said:


> Is this only a 05.5 - 06 Jetta issue? What about the 2006 Rabbit? Has anyone had problems with this model? Just wondering because I have an aging 2006 Rabbit and would like to avoid something like this. Thanks!


 From what I have read it is an issue with the first 2.5l engine and was engineered out in 07 I believe. I am in the same boat as you, I want to fix it before something happens. 

I do beleive it affects the rabbit too, but I am really not sure.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

stupakjim said:


> From what I have read on vortex it is the upper guides that go first. I'm wondering if the issue was engineered out with newer parts.


 Are you sure? The upper guides are what goes first on VR6s, especially early VRs, but I thought it was a sprocket that wears on the 2.5L, causing chain stretch.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

I am not to sure, I hope a 2.5l guru will find this post.


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## brian81 (Apr 19, 2007)

indybuell said:


> Definitely call VW of America and report the issue. The more of us that report it, the better chance of a recall or a TSB or some slim chance we can get our money back.


 Reporting to VW is the best chance of getting some immediate help with your car. The best thing that could happen for 2.5 owners is for everyone with a timing chain issue is to report it to NHSTA. 

vortex member VW Redux had a DSG transmission fail at just over 600 miles. Search for his posts to read about what he did. His reporting to NHSTA resulted in a government campaign as well as one by VW resulting in hundreds of people (if not more) getting repair reimbursements and causing VW warranty the DSG to 100k miles.


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

I have gotten the famous problem with my 2.5-05 engine at 93K. However, when the CEL came on, I was already too late. 

The transmission needs to come off to replace everything, so that is something you need to consider paying for. In most cases, if not all, the engine needs to come out to replace the chains. I ended up buying a new motor and replace it myself due to the cost involved. 

I agree that the timing problem should have been a warranty issue, but VW knows it cost a lot of money to replace that.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

Is there something I can do before its too late??? Will replacing both tensioners, guides, and chain solve the issue? Should I replace the gears too?


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## Anile_eight (Sep 30, 2009)

stupakjim said:


> Is there something I can do before its too late??? Will replacing both tensioners, guides, and chain solve the issue? Should I replace the gears too?


 Like it was said earlier... it is a pretty big job... drop the trans etc. I don't know if that will solve everything but it is a shot lol. 

Hopefully this doesn't happen to me. But I will be changing out my clutch, so while i'm doing that I may spend the extra afternoon changing that stuff out.


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

From what I have heard and read, the gears or sprockets are not set at the right torque, which eventually creates the jump of the chain. A dealership as well as those like myself had to take the engine out to either replace the parts so yes, it is a big job. 

Find out from your mechanic how far he has to go to replace the waterpump and go from there.


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## Anile_eight (Sep 30, 2009)

Yeah, if this ever happens to me I would just swap an 08+ engine.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

http://www.reesphotos.com/VW/ This is the story of another guy... 

Lot of good info. 
"Since the only real problem was that the worn timing chain sprocket allowed the timing chain to "slip 3 teeth", replacement of the worn sprocket, timing chain, and timing chain tensioner and guide components should have been all that was required."


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

Thank you to Ecs Tuning, 

You will need a timing chain kit, ES285903 (adjuster), ES285925 (gear) in order to correct the issue *BEFORE* it beomes a major problem.


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## Schwarz_Jetta (Jul 31, 2011)

Just wondering if anyone actually had their timing chains, guides, tensioner pre-emptively replaced! If so how much did it cost you? I'm also thinking of replacing my timing chain etc before i fall victim to this manufacturer defect. Another difficult thing i've encountered is finding someone who is willing todo the work. Any reputable vw mechanic i go to tell me that i shouldn't worry about the timing chain til i get closer to 200,000kms which i think is about 160-180 miles but in my opinion i think they're guaging this based on their experiences with MKV VR6 dual chain set up. Anyways if you've gotten the work done pre-emptively then please post how much you paid all in all for us who are interested in going that route as well.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

Schwarz_Jetta said:


> Just wondering if anyone actually had their timing chains, guides, tensioner pre-emptively replaced! If so how much did it cost you? I'm also thinking of replacing my timing chain etc before i fall victim to this manufacturer defect. Another difficult thing i've encountered is finding someone who is willing todo the work. Any reputable vw mechanic i go to tell me that i shouldn't worry about the timing chain til i get closer to 200,000kms which i think is about 160-180 miles but in my opinion i think they're guaging this based on their experiences with MKV VR6 dual chain set up. Anyways if you've gotten the work done pre-emptively then please post how much you paid all in all for us who are interested in going that route as well.


 I am in the same boat as you. I priced the parts at ecstuning, looking at a little over $700 in parts. I have 83,000 miles on my motor, I am going to send out a sample of my oil to get checked out and take it from there. I am just going to go the route of driving my car till the pistons kiss the valves, then find an newer motor/ecu and get that installed.


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

$700 in new parts eh? I got my 17K '08 engine for $1,000. I guess it depends a lot on how long you want to drive your car or trade it in when that happens. 

VW of America is aware of this problem (although they don't claim that), and will give you a $1,500 voucher towards a new Jetta.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Schwarz_Jetta said:


> Just wondering if anyone actually had their timing chains, guides, tensioner pre-emptively replaced! If so how much did it cost you? I'm also thinking of replacing my timing chain etc before i fall victim to this manufacturer defect. Another difficult thing i've encountered is finding someone who is willing todo the work. Any reputable vw mechanic i go to tell me that i shouldn't worry about the timing chain til i get closer to 200,000kms which i think is about 160-180 miles but in my opinion i think they're guaging this based on their experiences with MKV VR6 dual chain set up. Anyways if you've gotten the work done pre-emptively then please post how much you paid all in all for us who are interested in going that route as well.


 If you have a 2007, why would you do this? From all I've seen, the issue only affects certain '05.5-'06 cars.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

stupakjim said:


> http://www.reesphotos.com/VW/ This is the story of another guy...
> 
> Lot of good info.
> "Since the only real problem was that the worn timing chain sprocket allowed the timing chain to "slip 3 teeth", replacement of the worn sprocket, timing chain, and timing chain tensioner and guide components should have been all that was required."


 Btw, the guy who made this website fails to mention what car and engine this is, but that is a 24v VR6, not a 2.5l five-cylinder.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

I was on the phone with vwoa for 45 mins, got absolutely nowhere, not even a voucher. I talked to the supervisor who informed me that there is no known issue and there was nothing they could do.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

mhjett said:


> Btw, the guy who made this website fails to mention what car and engine this is, but that is a 24v VR6, not a 2.5l five-cylinder.


 "Check carefully before purchasing a Volkswagen with a chain driven overhead camshaft engine - and this includes* almost all VW engines*, and some Audi engines. I am relating my experience here to alert others to the problem." 

This guys situation in very similar to the 2.5l issue, good catch on the picture. 

I'm just going to drive my 2.5 till it goes, then put a newer 2.5 in it, cheaper than buying a new car or buying a used one, I like the mk5 jetta over the mk6, although I havent driven or been inside one. By that time I may have extra money and_ possibly_ put a turbo kit on


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

stupakjim said:


> "Check carefully before purchasing a Volkswagen with a chain driven overhead camshaft engine - and this includes* almost all VW engines*, and some Audi engines. I am relating my experience here to alert others to the problem."


 The bolded part is not true. All the four-cylinder engines, except for the TSI, have belt-driven overhead cams. Not to mention that the non-hardened sprocket issue seems to have only affected a small batch of parts on certain engines.


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## stupakjim (Sep 17, 2005)

I'm not going to argue with you over some article that I posted to inform others with this issue. You are right... I'm going for a long walk over a tall cliff.


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## Schwarz_Jetta (Jul 31, 2011)

mhjett said:


> If you have a 2007, why would you do this? From all I've seen, the issue only affects certain '05.5-'06 cars.


 I would be extremely relieved if it truly affected only the 2005.5-06, but unfortunately i've got nothing but mixed reviews. Some say that it only affects those model years, then some say it affects the BGP/BGQ motors, and then others say that it affects the 2005.5-early 07 models. But so far, knock on wood, i've only seen this happen to the 05.5-06 models.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

stupakjim said:


> I'm not going to argue with you over some article that I posted to inform others with this issue. You are right... I'm going for a long walk over a tall cliff.












I was just pointing out some facts. Not every article you stumble across on the Intarnetwebz is gospel.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

based on what we have seen, the issue only affects the early engines (05.5 and 06s)


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

It does piss me off though that VW of America acts like their nose bleeds......seriously??


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## Imanol Alamillo (Dec 17, 2010)

Wow, I was really getting worried about the timing chain going south. It seems that my car is safe from that premature failure. Just hitted the 210k mile mark and no rattles at all.
'06 Jetta.


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## itskohler (Jan 7, 2011)

alwaysdutch said:


> It does piss me off though that VW of America acts like their nose bleeds......seriously??


 If you file a complaint enough times through the dealer and through VWoA they will front the bill, at least partially. :thumbup:


Imanol Alamillo said:


> Wow, I was really getting worried about the timing chain going south. It seems that my car is safe from that premature failure. Just hitted the 210k mile mark and no rattles at all.
> '06 Jetta.


 Highway, to the...DANGER ZONE!


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## xiviperi (Feb 25, 2012)

this has me worried, I have a 07 with a nice chain type sound at idle rattles away. It drives me nuts and is most notable while in a drive through next to a building. At first I thought it could be belt tensioner/idler pulley but the noise seemed like it was more towards the drivers side. I assumed the chain was behind the accessories like the 2.0's belt. After reading this and learning its on the drivers side I am super worried. I bought the car used with 60,000 miles on it. It now has 82,000 and the noise has gotten louder. My thoughts are the car may not have been serviced correctly, vw rated synthetic oil may not have been used. I have no way to know for sure. If that was the case the chain/cams could easily be bad.

I am waiting for parts for the serpentine belt the tensioner pulley has a bit of play in it. Once I replace them I will know my motors fate. At 82,000 the timing chain should not be an issue! 

Worst case I plan to drive her till she blows. In the meantime I will purchase a used 2.5 off ebay or a local yard and stash it away for d day. Looking at ebay today, I can get a 09 2.5 with 17,000 miles for only $650 to my door.

So if it does blow up (I hope not) I will swap the motor, install new clutch, and possibly have enough for a turbo by then. Until then WOT I go .... 

If this type of issue does affect a wide number of engines by all means VW should be standing behind their "bulletproof" 2.5


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## itskohler (Jan 7, 2011)

Did you get your car from a VW dealer?


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Before condemning VW, it's helpful to note that you don't know how the car was maintained. It could be that the oil was never changed, it could be that someone used the wrong oil. That's unfortunately the nature of the beast for a car without a history. That said, in your case I would probably keep driving it because it'd cost more than $650 to do the chains on your current engine.


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## Imanol Alamillo (Dec 17, 2010)

So do you guys recommend me to change the timing chains and tensioners just to be safe? Will they somehow just snap? :what:
Also I have a question: does the stretching of the timing chains can affect the timing between camshaft and crankshaft to the point that they are not as timed as when they were new?
I'm pretty sure I can tackle this job myself, as a matter of fact I'm hoping they start making noises so I can tear that part of the engine apart. :laugh:


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## itskohler (Jan 7, 2011)

mhjett said:


> Before condemning VW, it's helpful to note that you don't know how the car was maintained. It could be that the oil was never changed, it could be that someone used the wrong oil. That's unfortunately the nature of the beast for a car without a history. That said, in your case I would probably keep driving it because it'd cost more than $650 to do the chains on your current engine.


 This. 


Imanol Alamillo said:


> So do you guys recommend me to change the timing chains and tensioners just to be safe? Will they somehow just snap? :what:
> Also I have a question: does the stretching of the timing chains can affect the timing between camshaft and crankshaft to the point that they are not as timed as when they were new?
> I'm pretty sure I can tackle this job myself, as a matter of fact I'm hoping they start making noises so I can tear that part of the engine apart. :laugh:


 If it isn't broken, don't fix it. And if you want to tackle it yourself make sure you the specialty tools. Otherwise you just ****ed yourself.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Imanol Alamillo said:


> Wow, I was really getting worried about the timing chain going south. It seems that my car is safe from that premature failure. Just hitted the 210k mile mark and no rattles at all.
> '06 Jetta.


 I've you've hit 210k miles with no issues, I think it's fair to assume your car does NOT have defective parts. That said, at 210k miles, the chains and/or guides (most likely guides) could potentially simply wear out. If you've gone that far with no issues, I'd just keep driving it until you get any unusual noises or codes. You've gotten a ton of miles out of your engine. 

As far as doing your chains as preventative maintenance, you certainly _could_ do that, but I would research the work and special tools involved. Keep in mind the Bentley manual doesn't cover chains, saying it is "beyond the scope" of the manual (although the mkIII Bentley does cover VR6 chains).


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## Imanol Alamillo (Dec 17, 2010)

So I just decided to tackle this job myself. I'll open a new thread to post some pics.


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## Shtbox (Nov 27, 2010)

*FV-QR*

my 5/07 rabbit has quite a bit of chain noise at 55.6k miles... :banghead:


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Imanol Alamillo said:


> So I just decided to tackle this job myself. I'll open a new thread to post some pics.


 I would be very interested in seeing a DIY, given that the Bentley doesn't cover this mysterious procedure... Good luck.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

mhjett said:


> I would be very interested in seeing a DIY, given that the Bentley doesn't cover this mysterious procedure... Good luck.


 because you are not supposed to ever need to perform this "service". 

let me ask something, why spend 1k doing the job, when you can spend 1k on a new, lower milage motor?


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## GTACanuck (Feb 20, 2009)

thygreyt said:


> because you are not supposed to ever need to perform this "service".
> 
> let me ask something, why spend 1k doing the job, when you can spend 1k on a new, lower milage motor?


 Have to agree with Fred on this. I found an 08 motor with 9,000 mi for 600 bucks plus 200 shipping.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

thygreyt said:


> because you are not supposed to ever need to perform this "service".
> 
> let me ask something, why spend 1k doing the job, when you can spend 1k on a new, lower milage motor?


 How is he going to spend $1k doing the job himself (unless you count the time he puts into it)?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

whats the total for parts, and tools (if he/she needs to buy some)?


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## tankisarockstar (Jan 11, 2006)

this is my first post in the tech section for VW...my 07 rabbit hit 80k and i had a problem with the car...it basically sounded like a jet engine at idle. 3 trips to service and they diagnosed it as the timing chain tensioner....then they quoted me "about $2500 just for the labor...and thats just an estimate"....needless to say....hello mkvi jetta.


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## Vash350z (Jun 25, 2007)

I swear i am starting to her chain noises on my 07, 87k miles. Been emailing a dealership back and forth over a very lightly used 2011 evolution x in my favorite color, may need to go for it.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

thygreyt said:


> whats the total for parts, and tools (if he/she needs to buy some)?


 Here's all the parts from Adirondack (Germanautoparts.com): 

http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Engine/227/8 

Adds up to $341.26. 

I don't know what tools are needed, but I can't imagine it takes $700 of special tools to do the chains.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

mhjett said:


> Here's all the parts from Adirondack (Germanautoparts.com):
> 
> http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Engine/227/8
> 
> ...


 thats assuming that it was caught on time. 

not trying to win a debate... cause in the end, if the thing is caught before it causes damages, then yes its cheaper to simply fix it.


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

thygreyt said:


> thats assuming that it was caught on time.
> 
> not trying to win a debate... cause in the end, if the thing is caught before it causes damages, then yes its cheaper to simply fix it.


 Not trying to win either. Just saying that from all of Imanol Alamillo's posts, his chains are just fine and don't make any noise, he's just doing it as preventative work. I agree, though, that if something broke first you'd probably be out well over $1k in parts. 

Edit - BTW, here is Imanol Alamillo's repair thread. Looks like things are coming along... :beer: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5626157-New-member-with-06-Jetta


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## xiviperi (Feb 25, 2012)

had mine looked at professionally, the noise is def the timing chain.... :banghead: its 10 book hours to have them do it. Going to drive her till she blows then ebay a motor..... car is at 86,000 miles now had noise for over 10k already so who knows maybe it will keep going for a long time.


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## oldman13 (Mar 15, 2011)

*Timing Chain*

I have similar issues.. timing chain skipped, dented in valves, quoted $3000 + as worst case scenario. I asked the mechanic if he could find a used motor instead. My current one has around 120,000 miles on it. Thoughts? Is the new motor the way to go? Will it be cheaper or risky since I won't know what issues the new one has? Thanks


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## alwaysdutch (Oct 19, 2011)

Well, what I can say is that if you replace the motor, and replace it with an '08, you do get a better engine that has all the illnesses removed and in most cases a lower mileage.

I replaced the engine, spent about $1,600 on parts and tools, but got almost a new car back for it. Reading the threads from folks that have done this, it seems that most are happy with the change.

You can get a new car as VW will probably give you a nice check towards a new car. They gave me a $2,000 check if I would bought a new VW.

I can only speak for myself, so please take my note as my own.


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## pdjetta (May 2, 2006)

mhjett said:


> I would be very interested in seeing a DIY, given that the Bentley doesn't cover this mysterious procedure... Good luck.


The Bentley CD does cover timing chain replacement and setting the valve timing. Its the paper Bentley manual that does not. Both cost the same, so I opted for the CD. I needed to know what was involved in timing chain replacement and valve repair so I could decide whether or not to tackle this myself or swap in a new "used" motor (my son's '05.5 Jetta 2.5 BGP timing chain slipped, trashing the cylinder head). I have 35 years of wrenching experience as a hobby and after reviewing the Bently CD, I opted for a replacement "used" motor because of the number of EXPENSIVE special purpose tools required to set the valve timing and repair the cylinder head in the BGP was outrageous.

--Nate


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

pdjetta said:


> The Bentley CD does cover timing chain replacement and setting the valve timing. Its the paper Bentley manual that does not. Both cost the same, so I opted for the CD. I needed to know what was involved in timing chain replacement and valve repair so I could decide whether or not to tackle this myself or swap in a new "used" motor (my son's '05.5 Jetta 2.5 BGP timing chain slipped, trashing the cylinder head). I have 35 years of wrenching experience as a hobby and after reviewing the Bently CD, I opted for a replacement "used" motor because of the number of EXPENSIVE special purpose tools required to set the valve timing and repair the cylinder head in the BGP was outrageous.
> 
> --Nate


Interesting, thanks. I have the paper Bentley and as you mentioned, it simply says chain replacement is beyond the scope of the manual. Now you got me wondering what other info is on the DVD versus the book... 

I'm curious to see what these special tools are. Valve timing is just valve timing, but at the samet time, I'm not sure what's involved with the variable intake timing on the 2.5. I did the chains on my old VR6 and all you needed was a flat tool to hold the cams in the proper place.


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## pdjetta (May 2, 2006)

The problem is the tools index the engine and camshafts. There are no timing marks on the components. If you like, I can give you the VW tool numbers after I get home. I think the majority of the tool expense, for me, would have been what was required to repair the valve damage. I don't think the timing tools were too bad cost wise.

--Nate


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

pdjetta said:


> The problem is the tools index the engine and camshafts. There are no timing marks on the components. If you like, I can give you the VW tool numbers after I get home. I think the majority of the tool expense, for me, would have been what was required to repair the valve damage. I don't think the timing tools were too bad cost wise.
> 
> --Nate


Thanks - I have no need for the info, just curious. I see what you're saying though, that you're talking about tools for valve damage repair, not just chain replacement. 

I have an '08 2.5 so hopefully will never have any chain issues.


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## pdjetta (May 2, 2006)

I don't think my son will have any timing chain issues again with his 2.5. I just swapped in a "used" CBUA engine from a 2011 Jetta and the engine had a total of 860 miles on it. Yes, 860, under 1000. Came out of a brand new Jetta that was T-boned. $1650 delivered to my door. I also installed a FourSeasons solid flywheel VR-6 clutch kit since the engine was being swapped.

--Nate


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

pdjetta said:


> I don't think my son will have any timing chain issues again with his 2.5. I just swapped in a "used" CBUA engine from a 2011 Jetta and the engine had a total of 860 miles on it. Yes, 860, under 1000. Came out of a brand new Jetta that was T-boned. $1650 delivered to my door. I also installed a FourSeasons solid flywheel VR-6 clutch kit since the engine was being swapped.
> 
> --Nate


Any issues with the electronics between the '11 engine and your son's '05.5 car?


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## pdjetta (May 2, 2006)

No, and here's why:

I used all the 2005.5 stuff where the part numbers differed. On items where the part numbers were the same, (or superceded to a new number) I used the items from the CBUA (2011) motor, since they are newer. For example, the fuel injectors are different part numers between the two engines, so I put the old intake with injectors on the new motor. The O2 sensor and engine speed sensors were the same part numbers, so I left them on the new motor.

The CBUA has an entirely different engine management system, with more pins on the ECU, so to prevent CELs, and other issues, I stayed with all the BGP engine management stuff.

I of course, used the ECU from the 2005.5 Jetta, the new engine came from an automatic tranny Jetta and was transplanted into a 5-speed. Supposidly the ECUs are different, depending on the transmission. In addition, if I used the new ECU, I would have to have it programmed to work with the imobilizer in the instrument cluster of the 2005.5

Here si a link to another forum that details my swap and has a few pictures:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=348476

--Nate


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## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Wow, sounds like you definitely did your homework. Congrats on what sounds like a successful swap. Just paged thru your tdiclub thread; well done. :thumbup:

I was curious because as far as I knew, the mkVI electronics are completely different than the mkV. 

Could it be that your son's initial no-start condition was unrelated to the chains (e.g. flooded engine) and it was the attempted push-start that caused the chains to skip? Piecing together your posts, it sounds like what caused your son's valve damage problem was the engine spinning backwards while not running, and therefore without any oil pressure, which meant no tension on the chain tensioner, which lead to the chain skipping on the sprocket? It sounds to me like it could be inconclusive that it was even a chain failure to begin with (or were there noises or other signs of failure before it failed to start?). 



> Doh! My son just told me he tried to push start the car IN REVERSE, BUT USING SECOND GEAR, because the jump start with the battery did not work. Since it was backed in to a parking space on a hill he rolled it backwards and popped the clutch with the transmission in second gear! This made the engine turn backwards. He attempted this a couple of times and the last time, the engine "Stopped abruptly". Maybe that is when the chain let loose and the valves got munched! I hate to say it, but I thought he was smarter than this. At least he should have tried reverse.





> I pullled the timing cover off of the old motor all appears well inside. The timing chains are nice and tight and seem to rotate both camshafts in the direction of engine rotation. BUT if I rotate the engine backwards, the chain tensioner immediatly collapses, releasing tension on the upper timing chain and the chain ratchets over the intake camshaft cog, and the intake camshaft remains stationary when this happens! Of course whatever this happens, the the intake valves move out of time. This is what happened to the motor when my son ran it backwards, rolling backwards and using second gear to attempt to roll-start the car.


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## pdjetta (May 2, 2006)

Well, earlier than 3 months ago I have never seen under the hood of a VW with a 2.5 liter in it. I knew nothing about this engine, but have been wrenching on VWs for 35 years as a hobby. I am a diesel fanatic. Luckly, the layout is like the A4 and all the fasteners and connectors work the same way and there are the same mount bolts that need replacing, etc. Pretty straight forward AND I bought the Bentley CD for the car. That was a BIG plus. And I studied it and did research. And I got somewhat lucky. Before I bought the CBUA, I had no idea it has a variable displacement oil pump and a solinoid valve to change the flow rate by the ECU. This was introduced in 2011, the year the motor was made that I bought. I'm lucky because the default without the solinoid plugged in is the high output, oil pump gears fully engaged, which is like the VW oil pumps before 2011.

I tend to think there was some issue that prevented my son from being able to start his Jetta (there was an aftermarket alarm system installed at the time that has an engine kill feature, that perhaps malfunctioned and I removed the alarm and repaired the spliced wiring). Perhaps that was the issue. And I tend to think he caused the chain to skip when he coasted backwards and used second gear to attempt to roll start the engine:screwy:.

He only had the car for about three months and I rode in it about two weeks before the timing chain failure and the engine ran flawlessly and I heard no odd noises. Also, when I pulled the timing chain cover off, I saw absolutely no wear on the chain guides and the chain was tight. Rotate the engine backwards, the tensioner colapsed and the chain loosened and skipped accross the intake camshaft sprocket, changing the intake valve timing. So my son could have well caused this failure, but I thought the engine would have withstood a backwards rotation, but I NEVER would have attempted to roll start a car coasting backwards and using 2nd gear because I know the engine would spin backwards and not start.

Hopefully this swap will work out. I've only run the engine for about 30 minutes and driven it a couple of miles. I'll try to drive it some more after I get the new tranaxle body mount installed.

--Nate


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## kitten_puncher (Apr 5, 2012)

alwaysdutch said:


> I have gotten the famous problem with my 2.5-05 engine at 93K. However, when the CEL came on, I was already too late.
> 
> The transmission needs to come off to replace everything, so that is something you need to consider paying for. In most cases, if not all, the engine needs to come out to replace the chains. I ended up buying a new motor and replace it myself due to the cost involved.
> 
> I agree that the timing problem should have been a warranty issue, but VW knows it cost a lot of money to replace that.


 ^^^^exactly my story it sound slike my man... :facepalm: 




Here is the thread I started and I thought it wasnt the chains just got the prognosis today and turns out it was the chains after I was told repetatively it was not going to be them. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5762185-Major-Issues&p=78361270#post78361270 

05.5 jetta manual 95K miles zero problems till now, zero check engine lights, zero chain noise, full synthetic oil changes every 5K miles since I bought it with 75K on it and previous owner had all oil changes and maintanence done at the dealer on the 5K mark as well. Sometime life just wants to take a **** on you because it can. $1700 for the top and bottom chains :banghead::banghead:


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## 06jettaSEL (May 24, 2011)

dissonance said:


> Yes, any more info on VW owning up to their shoddy engineering please!
> 
> I am trying to help my mom with her 2005.5. I need to find someone who has undertaken this repair themselves so I can try to save her about $1500 that she really doesn't have. Have been unable to locate a DIY or FAQ and I know I will need the RB manual anyway, but I am trying to conceptualize if this is something that I can pull off in 3 days next week. I have above average competence with car repair and a reasonable facility to work in, but obviously can't go into this one without all the info. Any tips please! For the story of this incident keep reading...
> 
> My mom is original owner of '05.5 Jetta 2.5, regular maintenance, 63k miles. She got a camshaft position sensor error about a week and a half ago around the same time it started to make a clattering nose at low load and low RPM. She had the code pulled and cleared and it didn't return. The next day my brother went by to check it out and he told her there was definitely something wrong and that she should go nowhere but carefully the few miles to the dealer. I checked it out and it clatters on start up (something that she has complained about several times and been told by dealer is normal on these cars since new).* It idles smooth, then will shake intermittently. The sound can be produced by raising RPM to maybe 2k or so in park, and at low load as it passes through that range.* The dealer told her that the timing chain is stretched and needs replaced.


Mine does this, I always assumed it was the exhaust making that little popping sound. my car has 20k miles on it (2006) so I doubt my timing chain is stretched. It also makes the popping sound on startup which I researched every mk5 jetta does this from earlier years. 

This is a bull**** issue for sure, but I don't plan to keep the car past 50k miles. At this rate, and only putting 5-10k miles a year on it, I think I won't have to worry about this problem before I get rid of it. 

Any news of a recall?

I service once every 18 months at the dealer, but only put less than 5k miles a year on this car. Only use premium gas since day 1, and recently dumped one of those engine cleaner STP things into the gas tank for the first time at 20k. Now that I will be rid of one of my other cars soon I expect to get more use out of this car. I have already invested $500 into projectors, $800 into wheels and $600 into new 18" dunlops. I want to make this my new DD and want it to last at least 4 or 5 more years with no issues. Considering it has only 20k miles and never had any cell issues I hope I can make it happen.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

not EVERY 06 2.5 has issues. most dont.

and at 5k a year, all your issues, if any, will be for the lack of use.

i drive a lot per year (86k in 3.5 years) and i havent had any issues.


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## 06jettaSEL (May 24, 2011)

What type of problems can there be from lack of use? Any precautions I can take to avoid these issues? 

It has been sitting around for the last couple of years since I got my new car, but always run it every couple weeks for at least 30-50 miles. Never had any start up issues or anything. In fact my biggest gripe so far is the headliner peeled off, headlamps frosted over after 3 or 4 years and the spongy brakes. 

Yours is an 08 or 09 so I don't see why you should have problems as they probably ironed out all the kinks by then.


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## tek3 (Nov 16, 2012)

interesting read.. you can add another 05.5 2.5l timing issue to the list.

I took it in for misfires the day that they started... $900 of repairs later I found out that the timing chain streched. Car is just under 76,000 miles.

Bought the car used at 34k miles and do not know how well it was maintained during that period. Since I've had it, I've changed the synthetic oil every 5k miles everytime but once where I hit 6.5k miles. Car has never had any issues and was only ever in the shop for scheduled maintenance or tires. CEL gave me no warning as it was fine one day and then CEL for misfires the next, at which time it went immediately to the dealership.

Has anyone had luck with financial assistance from VW? From what I've read most people are denied or given $1,000-2,000 towards a new VW.

Unforunately time and space/resources eliminate the possibility of a new engine for me so it looks like I'm taking a loss and finding a new ride.


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## manunited420 (Dec 10, 2012)

PetrosVW had success with financial assistance over at the bottom of page two.


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## magics5rip (Mar 17, 2004)

For all of those with the timing chain issues, what is your engine code? BGP? BGQ?


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## 06jettaSEL (May 24, 2011)

tek3 said:


> Has anyone had luck with financial assistance from VW? From what I've read most people are denied or given $1,000-2,000 towards a new VW.
> 
> Unforunately time and space/resources eliminate the possibility of a new engine for me so it looks like I'm taking a loss and finding a new ride.



$2k off a new VW is a good deal. Of course, once your timing chain busts you can't even trade the car in I don't think, they will give you peanuts for it since it won't run.

The trick is to complain before the chain fails, get the $2k voucher, trade the car in for new VW after negotiating that one down as much as possible ($500-$1500 off MSRP) and don't tell them you have a voucher, and then use the $2k voucher after you've negotiated the price of the new car, because VW says you are allowed to do this. 


I'd happily use it towards an mk7 GTI, turbo beetle, or even 2.5L golf. 

Hate the new jettas...


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## JettaCarnage (May 5, 2003)

My 2005.5 with 102K started making the marbles in a can noise last month. Throwing a P0016 code as well. Found a 2008 2.5l with 50k for 1200. Have a shop that will put it in for another 1000. Good deal?


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## hop2it (Jul 6, 2010)

Thats about what you could expect but others have purchased a 2008 2.5 for less money... 600 -800 I'd try to knock down the 1200 cost abit.


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## JettaCarnage (May 5, 2003)

Get well soon...


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## Bigfoot1 (Aug 7, 2010)

*Again?*

I had to get my chain replaced in Feb 2010 (paid $2.5k out of pocket and VW of Canada stonewalled me). Then again in Oct 2010 (the dealer said that it may have been a defective chain that they put in and covered it under warranty). 

Now a few years later, I think I have all the symptoms again and my car is at the dealership. My VW mechanic recommended a new 07 Rabbit engine which I hope wont cause any compatibility problems. 

Has anyone had this happen multiple times? Also, any idea on whether VW of Canada will pay, even partially, for the service?


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## importtek (Aug 25, 2010)

*swap info*

I have an 05 that has jumped time. If we go to a newer motor say 08 is it a straight swap or is there a lot to swap?


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