# Do I need Oil Squirters?



## 96jettatrek2.0 (Mar 15, 2005)

Building a 20v 2.0T engine
goal is to make 500awhp in an audi.
ABA bottem end includes stock forged crank, scat rods with arp2k bolts, arp main studs, JE custom foged pistons ceramic coated head, moly coated skirts, rotated assembly completely balanced. Bored to 83mm with a 4.5 thousands piston wall clearence added.
top end is a ported and polished AEB head with a bunch of goodies added to it.
I don't really intend to rev past 8000-8500 rpm.
So do I add the oil squriters (block doesn't currently have them) for extra piston cooling, or do I leave them out and get better oil pressure at higher RPM? Keep in mind the coated pistons and the large wall clearence.


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## clarksongli (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*

cannot hurt to put in your oil squirters......but are they needed? no, for sure they are not needed.
id say if you have a block with oil squirters, go for it......but if not don't worry bout it, plenty of high boost motors run without them....
have you considered a dry sump system? Seems like you put the money into the system, why not get rid of your oil bathe system and run a fully dry sump?
just wondering thats all


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## 96jettatrek2.0 (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (clarksongli)*

I haven't considered a dry sump... well till now...
hmmm good point I'll look into it.
Thanks for the opinion about the squirters... i really don't want to add them unless they are neccesary... just one more thing to fail ya know?


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## clarksongli (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*

yeah running them is definitely not needed......seems like your pretty well set in terms of hardware for the bottom end......but a dry sump would be a very nice addition


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *96jettatrek2.0* »_Building a 20v 2.0T engine
goal is to make 500awhp in an audi.
ABA bottem end includes stock forged crank, scat rods with arp2k bolts, arp main studs, JE custom foged pistons ceramic coated head, moly coated skirts, rotated assembly completely balanced. Bored to 83mm with a 4.5 thousands piston wall clearence added.
top end is a ported and polished AEB head with a bunch of goodies added to it.
I don't really intend to rev past 8000-8500 rpm.
So do I add the oil squriters (block doesn't currently have them) for extra piston cooling, or do I leave them out and get better oil pressure at higher RPM? Keep in mind the coated pistons and the large wall clearence.










Opinions are worth almost what you pay for them...








Do you think VW puts squirters in performance n/a engines to waste money? A Turbo piston sees a lot more pressure and heat than an n/a engine. You won't suffer any oil pressure drop with properly installed squirters. The pistons need the extra cooling, especially at high rpm in an FI engine. I personally would not even consider building a Turbo engine without oil squirters and neither should you IMNHO.


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## 78mk1 (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (raceware)*

x2


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## 96jettatrek2.0 (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_

Opinions are worth almost what you pay for them...








Do you think VW puts squirters in performance n/a engines to waste money? A Turbo piston sees a lot more pressure and heat than an n/a engine. You won't suffer any oil pressure drop with properly installed squirters. The pistons need the extra cooling, especially at high rpm in an FI engine. I personally would not even consider building a Turbo engine without oil squirters and neither should you IMNHO.

Do you represent RACEWARE the company?
absolutely it sees more pressure and heat than a regular piston... the regular ABA pistons were also cast for OBD2 iirc, so were the rods and crank. So yes I could see it needed extra cooling, but VW discontinued oil jets in OBD2? is that corner cutting or proof they weren't neccesary?
I understand what the oil jets do and the benifit, but these pumps were designed to feed at the most a 16v head, I'm using a 20 valve head, and once those valves open up, maybe pressure won't drop, but it sure won't increase proportional to the rpms either... 
you are right opinions are just that, and short of giving everyone a skill testing exam I don't know if you know anything you are talking about... I'm hoping people that do will respond.


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## raceware (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *96jettatrek2.0* »_
Do you represent RACEWARE the company?
absolutely it sees more pressure and heat than a regular piston... the regular ABA pistons were also cast for OBD2 iirc, so were the rods and crank. So yes I could see it needed extra cooling, but VW discontinued oil jets in OBD2? is that corner cutting or proof they weren't neccesary?
I understand what the oil jets do and the benifit, but these pumps were designed to feed at the most a 16v head, I'm using a 20 valve head, and once those valves open up, maybe pressure won't drop, but it sure won't increase proportional to the rpms either... 
you are right opinions are just that, and short of giving everyone a skill testing exam I don't know if you know anything you are talking about... I'm hoping people that do will respond.


Gee, you sound like a Net "expert" so I wouldn't even consider disagreeing with you...







I'm sure you are right that doubling the power output and thermal load would not require any additional cooling. What was I thinking? I apologize. I musta lost my mind. So sorry.
FYI Circa 1992 - [email protected] 125 mph @ 1600 lbs. - 1/8th mile World record holding performance with 650 SAE HP @ 20 PSI - 1.8T 16V GTI - with oil squirters and no oil pressure problems. Whodda thunk?
Duh.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *96jettatrek2.0* »_
I understand what the oil jets do and the benifit, but these pumps were designed to feed at the most a 16v head, I'm using a 20 valve head, and once those valves open up, maybe pressure won't drop, but it sure won't increase proportional to the rpms either... 


you know that for a fact?


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## 96jettatrek2.0 (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_

Gee, you sound like a Net "expert" so I wouldn't even consider disagreeing with you...







I'm sure you are right that doubling the power output and thermal load would not require any additional cooling. What was I thinking? I apologize. I musta lost my mind. So sorry.
FYI Circa 1992 - [email protected] 125 mph @ 1600 lbs. - 1/8th mile World record holding performance with 650 SAE HP @ 20 PSI - 1.8T 16V GTI - with oil squirters and no oil pressure problems. Whodda thunk?
Duh.









C'mon man cut me some slack, I'm no expert, I'm asking questions trying to learn. I dont know who you are, or what you've done, well until you tell me.
This is my first car engine build.
btw: that condecending tone sure helps encourage people!
so apart from that, thanks for sharing the information, your helping somebody that doesn't have your priceless years of expiriance NOT blow up the engine they are spending a ton of money on.
PS: I don't think anything I said wasn't true - VW did discontinue the use of oil jets, the oil pump was designed for a 16v head, and well if you create 4 more outputs at any pressure, total overall pressure in the closed system will drop... will it drop below safe levels? I don't know, I'm asking. 
again, thanks for your opinion.








Plus if you do represent raceware then I wanted to say I bought the 20v head bolts and they are a superior product - good job.


_Modified by 96jettatrek2.0 at 2:39 PM 3-7-2008_


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## derekste (Jan 26, 2005)

somewhat related... do oil squirters ever go bad? I just had my OBDI ABA block rebuilt and I'm sure the squirters were removed/re-installed... any chance they might not work as expected?
I guess I don't really know how they operate... they're valved somehow to only open up after a certain pressure? more info appreciated


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (derekste)*

you can stick a can of brake clean behind them with that little red straw still on it, and they should open up


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## 96jettatrek2.0 (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (derekste)*

the bolt has a valve in it yes to open at a certain pressure.


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## Boost_Retard (Oct 10, 2005)

altho i dont have a turbo waterpumper i can say that i went to great lengths to add oil squirters to my aircooled turbo efi motor.. 
piston cooling is your friend.. im workin on a turbo ABA now and have installed squirters..
the loss of oil PSI would have to be tested..i have never checked..but i cant see it causing a loss..the pump should be able to supply more than enough oil if they were installed stock from the factory.. maybe a larger oil pump to ease your mind?
all i gotta say is that i have seen (aircooled) motors bake from high boost..and its always pistons.. i know its usually due to lean fuel but the squirters cant hurt..
IMO VW did not ditch things because they were not needed so much..more that it was cheaper to build without and that it lasted almost as long.. old forged crank VS cast for instance..
again i cant say they are needed..but it sure sounds like a great idea 2 me..


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *96jettatrek2.0* »_
btw: that condecending tone sure helps encourage people!


It's a common theme with that one.







As for the squirters, they are there to remove heat from the pistons. I'm not a 2.0/ABA expert by any means, but are the rods rifle drilled? If not, the oil squirters are providing extra oil for wrist pin oiling as well. You already are planning on ceramic coating the domes (hard to tell from your post), why not ceramic coat the piston faces? If your block isn't provisioned for oil squiters, coat the piston faces, run a good external air to air oil cooler, monitor your oil pressure and temps, and let it roll. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (raceware)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raceware* »_
I'm sure you are right that doubling the power output and thermal load would not require any additional cooling. What was I thinking?

I think you were thinking you know what you're talking about.







I run 3x the amount of OEM power my motor was designed for, without any additional cooling. Oh noes. But my 1.8t has oil squirters.


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## 96jettatrek2.0 (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
It's a common theme with that one.







As for the squirters, they are there to remove heat from the pistons. I'm not a 2.0/ABA expert by any means, but are the rods rifle drilled? If not, the oil squirters are providing extra oil for wrist pin oiling as well. You already are planning on ceramic coating the domes (hard to tell from your post), why not ceramic coat the piston faces? If your block isn't provisioned for oil squiters, coat the piston faces, run a good external air to air oil cooler, monitor your oil pressure and temps, and let it roll. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

ooops I ment to say the piston face is ceramic coated, right from JE. The rods are not rifle drilled, and that's a great point about oiling the pin.
There are currently no holes in the block for the bolt valve / oil squirter, but the flat spot is there so I can get a machinist to drill the holes for me.
Thanks for the advice. Now I need to make a post for a WTB oil squirters and bolt valves...
Do you happen to have a spec, location of the hole, tap code for the bolts?


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *96jettatrek2.0* »_
ooops I ment to say the piston face is ceramic coated, right from JE. The rods are not rifle drilled, and that's a great point about oiling the pin.
There are currently no holes in the block for the bolt valve / oil squirter, but the flat spot is there so I can get a machinist to drill the holes for me.
Thanks for the advice. Now I need to make a post for a WTB oil squirters and bolt valves...
Do you happen to have a spec, location of the hole, tap code for the bolts?

Well, the JE's should have four oiling holes/side for the oil scraper ring, do yours have oiling holes in the pin bores? My Wiseco's do. Only spec I know about them is I think the valve bolts open at 42 psi, which is like all the time. lol


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (clarksongli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clarksongli* »_
have you considered a dry sump system? Seems like you put the money into the system, why not get rid of your oil bathe system and run a fully dry sump?

what does dry sump have to do with oil squirters?
ANd Yes you DO need oil squirters as discussed in the PM with you.


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## clarksongli (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
what does dry sump have to do with oil squirters?
ANd Yes you DO need oil squirters as discussed in the PM with you.

oil squirters have NOTHING to do with dry sump.......read a bit more
reason i asked was he spent all this money on internals and is shooting for a HP goal, only makes sense to run a dry sump and cut down on the crank bathe.
as for needing oil squirters......i will say again, do what you want, but i don't really think they are absolutely needed.
proper fueling will keep your combustion temp sub 2500......good water cooling through the jackets will keep your hotspots down......good air/oil cooler will keep your oil viscosity in operating range......and with your upgraded internals, there should not be a question of strength......
but hey, since you spent this money, you can always install the squirters. Just one more thing to buy, and one more thing you can't test to see if they are effective.
show me a temp curve of the back end of a piston WHILE RUNNING, with and without oil squirters.......if someone can show me that then awesome...if not this entire thread will be opinion based, including myself


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## shortshiften (Mar 29, 2005)

you spent all this money on the motor and goodies why no go the little extra step andput them in for peace of mind. 
its a turbo 4 cyl trying t make 500 hp and reving to 8500.................. should be a no brainer.
best case scenario you make the 500 hp reliably and consistantly............ worst case you blow the **** up and sit there and wonder...... could oil squirters saved this motor.
its up to you but i would do it not worth the risk. and theres no dout that the motor is going to see some crazy heat and abuse.
i on the other hand dont have to worrie ...... i have a VR








GL with the build 
ps are u bolting the 20v head to the aba block or just swaping in the rotating asembly??
what car is this going in ??
what do u plan on doing with the trans ??

post pics. 
thanks 
E


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## 96jettatrek2.0 (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (shortshiften)*

better safe than sorry I guess, I'll install them. Thanks for everyones opinions.
shortshiften - > the 20v head is getting bolted to a built ABA block, plan is to put it in a TTq, for a transmissions I don't know yet, probably try to build the stock one in the TT so it doesn't break.
don't really have alot of pictures right now, once I start putting the motor back together I'll take pictures.
Thanks for everyones opinions.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (96jettatrek2.0)*

On the topic of why VW decided to delete the squirters on the OBD2. I DEFINITELY don't think they were necessary on a 115hp engine. 
I've heard somewhere that the ABA was destined to be a turbo motor, with low compression and different injection, but that VW ran out of time and released it as an N/A motor. Whether or not that is true is hard to verify, but seeing the squirters in there certainly supports the suggestion.
If you're aiming for 500 awhp, I would definitely run them. I also don't like installing parts or options when I can't directly test effectiveness, but with these kinds of power levels, I would be doing as much as I can to keep the pistons cool.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (clarksongli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clarksongli* »_
oil squirters have NOTHING to do with dry sump.......read a bit more
reason i asked was he spent all this money on internals and is shooting for a HP goal, only makes sense to run a dry sump and cut down on the crank bathe.

I did but thats an expensive solution and still wouldnt solve his piston cooling situation.

_Quote, originally posted by *clarksongli* »_if someone can show me that then awesome...if not this entire thread will be opinion based, including myself









No Need,I trust Audi/VW Engineers enough to know that every single turbo motor they ever produced left the assembly line with oil squirters.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*

plenty of supercharged, blown engines running without piston squirters...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Do I need Oil Squirters? (96jettatrek2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *antichristonwheels* »_plenty of supercharged, blown engines running without piston squirters...

Good for them but this is a whole other build.
Its a no brainer that cooling your pistons is a plus to have.


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