# How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6



## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

First time through the valve cover gasket changeout on this 2000 v6 motor. Starting on the passenger side, I've got the cover off, tension in the chain tensioner relieved with a kluge device but it's working, all of the caps removed, tensioner broken from the head and loose (captive but floating), so the next step is to remove the cams and the tensioning device as a unit and lay it all down.
Problem: Facing the engine from the right fender, with the front of the engine to the right: Both cams refuse to be released at their left ends, as if the leftmost journal (#5) has a dead hold on the camshafts at their location. No budge at all even with light and careful prying. And some prying with everything that looked as if it might break a cam out of its bondage but still very careful here. Now I'm scared. 
What is holding these camshafts in place at the chain end? Too much pressure from the lifters under the cams? The sparkplugs are out. No clue from staring at the ETKA blowup drawings that I am missing a retaining connector or captive seal or who knows what...http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeropost?cmd=newtopic&id=34#
I've looked everywhere for this thread here and elsewhere for parts of two days and am resorting to starting this here...please forgive any repetition...


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

The exhaust cam is held in place by the timing belt. The intake cam should pry out, if the CCT is loose.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (tryin2vw)*

Okay. Thanks. The timing belt is off. The CCT is loose. Looser than loose. As I said, floating. Camshafts both trapped by unseen forces. All caps off. The camshafts actually have play in the right end, with prying. Absolutely no play at all at the chain end.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

And let me add that this motor was brought to TDC to start this episode of how-will-we-overcome-this-one-now. Front of car in service position, timing belt removed, timing belt covers removed, everything done in order to get here. I did have the plugs in for cleanliness' sake while finding TDC. Could I have charged a lifter or otherwise pressurized the valve train enough to exert upward pressure on the cams locking the shafts against...what...


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

Are all the bearing caps removed? There are some common caps that hold both the cams on the far side of the cam chain tensioner (toward the firewall on the passenger side and toward the front on the driver side). They hold the seals and cup. Use two screwdrivers to pry things as shown in the attached picture.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (tryin2vw)*

Okay very much obliged for the response with photo. Maybe onto something and will look for any missed common retaining hardware at firewall end of right bank, when this rain lets up. 
-----Do you mean there should be this common cap at the outside of the perimeter of the valve cover gasket, or am I looking within the perimeter (anything's possible) for something that looks unlike the other caps...? There is a retaining cap located outside the valve cover's perimeter, firewall (chain) end, which has been removed all this time, and again the chain tensioner is fully loose and the four torx bolts holding it have been removed. There must be some GD thing holding the cams, or I have been girlish in my prying -- 
PLEASE ADVISE: About how hard should I pry...like flipping pancakes or up on my toes and pouncing on my prybar like a polar bear at a seal hole?-----


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

Look at the far left, nearly out of picture for a common cap. It is not gentle prying that should be done but it did not take the polar bear type of force either.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (tryin2vw)*

Alright I'll get communal with it and report how far the cams traveled in the air when she finally let go. I've stared at the drawings again and it seems possible that an end cap on the intake shaft has been rtv'd into place and may be calcified but I say again: this is a dead fast hold on both camshafts at the chain end. 
Very - much - appreciate - the - help.


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

Make sure all of the bearing caps are off and sitting on a bench in the proper order before prying on the cam.


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

1. Don't you also need to remove the cam position sensor?
2. If prying doesn't work, try grabbing the shaft at the same place (i.e. a rough cast bit) with a channel-lock or small vise-grip (not too tight though) and wiggle it back and forth (like you're trying to turn the camshaft) until it releases.


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 ()*

ya, have to remove the cam sensor (2 10mm bolts)
And I usually tap on the cam with a small deadblow (rubber) hammer and the cams pop out.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (Slimjimmn)*

The greatest, guys. Thanks.
I have a four pound hammer and a nail-removing prybar and I'll go to work like John Henry on the railroad. Can't wait. These cams are about to find out where the BULL HOOKS...


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## 2001 Variant (May 27, 2007)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

Make sure you don't mess up the shafts when prying.
As mentioned before there is one cap outside the valve cover. It's actually not a common one. It only clamps down the exhaust cam shaft. It's on the chain side and in line with the tensioner. If you have all caps off you should get play in the cams and shouldn't need to pry too hard.
But here's the killer: Why are you trying to remove the cams in the first place? While the factory repair manual describes this procedure to get to the cam tensioner seal it's really not necessary.
You can just compress the chain tensioner (cam adjuster) with the compression tool, remove it's 4 screws and lift it up a bit. You'll get about 1/4 to 3/4 in gap between the tensioner and the head which is just enough to get the old gasket and half moon seal out and get the new ones in (use long needle nose pliers for the half moon seal). You'll need an inspection mirror to make sure you have the sealing surfaces clean since you can't really see much otherwise but it's not that hard to do. It's definitely easier than removing the whole dual cam assembly.
Of course, if you do the timing belt anyway then it's not that much more work to take the cams out but you still risk messing things up. If you can't get the cams to come up and you have no other work you planned to do in there (like replace lifters and such) I would stop now and just do it the short cut way.
Some DIY write-ups suggest to loosen the bearing caps of the cams (or at least the intake cam) to get some more wiggle room. From my experience with a recent seal swap on the same engine I can say that it's not necessary. I had plenty of room (well that's a lie but it was enough to get the job done right) with just pulling up the tensioner while still sitting in the chain with all bearing caps untouched.


_Modified by 2001 Variant at 7:22 PM 3-7-2010_


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (2001 Variant)*

Thank you for the time with this. I've seen this procedure and here's the real killer: There's enough crud apparent at the leftmost journal's oil gap, filling the small centered oil relief, to restrict flow and cause some initial shiny discoloration in the exhaust camshaft right there. That stuff's gotta come out and anyway, this is a matter of principal now. 
We're goin'.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

Okay. All of you Sherlocks out there had the clue you needed, but nobody got quite the right answer. Here it is:
When the right ends showed play on prying, that meant that they were loose and raised slightly. The tolerance for angle in the camshaft is just about zero, as it turns out, and the slight angle locked (and I mean locked...fortunately although I did pry hard this morning, I did not actually force the shafts out at this slight angle and thereby hurt the bearing trough) the camshafts in place at their left ends. Reattaching the caps and using their retaining hardware to slowly and evenly force the right ends back down caused a pop and release without further drama. Camshafts and tensioner are out and laid down as a unit.
The procedure called for removal of the caps from right to left in two stages: one three five (and outer cap) and two four. I'd go backwards next time, loosening the caps closest to the chain first, and thus avoiding the lift-up at the other end and the resulting angled-camshaft impasse at the chain end's widest journal.
To those who played along, thanks for being on the show. Any comments welcome.


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

I have a hard time picturing how "raising" one end could seize the opposite end, especially with the caps off, but I'll take your word for it.

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view










_Quote, originally posted by *oneyeball* »_Reattaching the caps and using their retaining hardware to slowly and evenly force the right ends back down caused a pop and release without further drama.

And a couple of taps with a rubber mallet, as suggested by Slimjimmn, didn't accomplish anything? Holy crap they must have been seized but good!









_Quote, originally posted by *oneyeball* »_I'd go backwards next time

and probably get it seized at the other end...


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 ()*

Okay seized is a word I wouldn't use here. You can take my word for it -- they were not going anywhere, and let me emphasize that the raise-up at the right end was no more than an eighth on the upper, three sixteenths on the lower cam. Depressing them produced joy when the gap was reduced to something like thirty thousanths. These Germans can still machine.
Rubber mallet was not productive hitting longitudinally on the end of the camshaft -- I was afraid to hit upward at the free end, and the trapped ends are not hittable. Downward blows jarred nothing loose but did convince me that the left ends were solid as a rock in their entrapment.
As for predicting the same result, other end, anything's possible. But I doubt it considering the fact that the chain-end hardware made access to that end's camshafts very restricted, while the other ends are hanging out ready to be spanked. As you should be for suggesting such a thing.


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

Ohhhhhh, I get it now. I was trying to picture how the shaft could become stuck in the lower journals.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 ()*

Sorry. Should have explained in Canadian. Didn't nooootice eh.


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*

Take off, eh! 
Hoser.


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 ()*

The cams are pressed into the journals not bolted in that's why there are no bearings like on older cars. You need to bolt the middle cap in a couple threads to pull the cam back more into the journal and straighten it out and it should pop out the other stuck end. It won't come out unless youstraighten the cam. Might have to bolt down the next cap also to pop it out


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (Slimjimmn)*

I'm still surprised it could grab it that hard without it being an interference fit. Would it help if you removed the cap from whatever valves are open last, so it doesn't bind? That doesn't agree with the above procedure, unless 2 and 4 are taken off at the same time.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (Slimjimmn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slimjimmn* »_It won't come out unless you straighten the cam. 

True enough. Would have been good to know, as I seem to have buckled the left upper journal at a weak point on its lower left/center where a hole comes very close to the journal wall, high on the wall, producing a slight protrusion at the site of the buckle, measuring maybe 3mm and protruding maybe twenty thousanths. This is NG.
My plan, after a lot of standing back and making sure I did nothing, is to put things back together and pray with every fiber of my being that the metal of the head is softer than the metal of the camshaft, and that the camshaft will grind off the excess and find a happy place to live.
QUESTION: If that plan survives scrutiny here, would you use break-in oil? And if not, would you try to Dremel-down the raised portion of the buckled metal, which is frought with potential straying and scratching and throwing shards, and anyway is not going to machine proper tolerances, but could at least make a protrusion into a recess..........It's the wide journal, and it's close to the middle of the journal, so a recess could be better...Wadya think?


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 (oneyeball)*








Does not compute. Do you have a picture? If the cap doesn't go on flush & tight, then you definitely have a problem.


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## oneyeball (Mar 6, 2010)

*Re: How to remove stubborn camshafts from the 2.8 30v v6 ()*

Aight then. Tapped down the offending few thousandths (there is a d in there, isn't there?) with a custom drift and the handle of a brad hammer, confident with how it looks, moving on.
Will report shrapnel pattern behind car on test drive. Betting on usual V shape, alluvial distribution of chunks.


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