# A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life.



## Tye7 (May 14, 2008)

I'm looking for a little advice and direction.
I really _really_ hate how much cars cost and how unreliable they can be. I guess you could call me a utilitarian and a cheapskate and probably a hippie.








I've been on this new kick about rebuilding a super-reliable, super-efficient car that will last me forever and be easy to repair. Maybe I'm just a little OCD, but I go crazy thinking about how long my car is going to last... when I'm going to have to shell out a ton of money on a new one .. etc.
I don't really care what something looks like.. I just want the ultimate A to B machine... Something simple and well engineered with great gas mileage, or the potential for great mileage. The classic bug symbolizes that in my mind for some reason, so I thought I'd start here and see what everyone says. 
Is the bug the car I'm looking for? Any other suggestions?


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## quattrofun5 (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (Tye7)*

If you want something really cheap to run, easy to fix, and good on fuel, I would probably look at getting an old Corolla or something to be honest. Cheap to buy, cheap on insurance etc. 
While the old Beetles (or anything of a similar vintage) can be cool and they are relatively simple mechanically, you are buying an old car and old cars have a way of acting their age when they want to - in spite of all your good intentions. 
If you really want one, talk to some Beetle owners about their real world experiences...it's kinda like going on vacation somewhere and saying you'd love to live there - nice to visit but very different once you live there and cars can be the same way. More modern cars are actually much more reliable than they used to be - finding something that has depreciated down to nothing but isn't too old is probably the best bet...it won't be a Bug but...


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## alpinweiss (Aug 10, 2007)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (quattrofun5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *quattrofun5* »_
If you really want one, talk to some Beetle owners about their real world experiences...it's kinda like going on vacation somewhere and saying you'd love to live there - nice to visit but very different once you live there and cars can be the same way. More modern cars are actually much more reliable than they used to be - finding something that has depreciated down to nothing but isn't too old is probably the best bet...it won't be a Bug but...

Agreed.
Although the air cooled Beetles had mostly come and gone by the time I finished school, I had chances to drive older models a number of years ago. I had fond memories of those old VW's.
A few years ago I had the opportunity to drive a brand-new air cooled Beetle at a VW dealership in Mexico. The memories were better than the reality. The Beetle was underpowered, noisy, sloppy handling, and uncomfortable. In short, a disappointment.
It seems memories are better left as memories. After getting used to more modern cars, the Beetle was a relic of the 1970's. The performance is really lacking by modern standards. Think 0 to 60 times of about 18 seconds (you can race the city buses), and a top speed of about 70 mph.
Old air-cooled VW's are wonderful for collectors and car shows, but not very good as a daily driver on modern high-speed roads.


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## Soren (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (Tye7)*

If I didn't have a love affair with my vr6, I would look for a granny owned Honda CRX. The HF model is really fun and fuel efficient. Parts will not be expensive or hard to find, ever. MPG rivals a Prius, but holy crap does the Prius have a lot of room vs a CRX!


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## where_2 (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (Tye7)*

For efficiency, reliability, and excellent fuel economy, get yourself an '81 Rabbit_Pickup with a diesel engine. Have the engine rebuilt, or do it youself. Have the diesel injection pump rebuilt. Go through all the mechanicals in the vehicle and replace anything that is questionable. Grab some seats that are in decent shape off the Vortex, or get some Scirocco or Corrado seats and get them recovered. Get the pickup with a 5-speed tranny and have a 0.75 fifth gear installed, if it does not already have it. 
To help you with working the vehicle over and maintaining it, get yourself a "How to Keep Your Rabbit Alive" book off Amazon. 
Expect to drop about $9k into acquiring the vehicle and getting it into very good shape. 
Then sit back and drive... Expect 50mpg... Plus it's a pickup so you can haul stuff in the back...Get one from the desert where it has not seen rust. 
As for the Beetle, I owned a 1970 Beetle for 6 years beginning in the late 1980's. It only got ~25mpg. Granted, the John Muir "How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" for the air cooled VW's was a great help in keeping it maintained, but the drum brakes at all 4 corners were not as trouble free as the Front disc/rear drum combination on the '80 Scirocco_S that I owned after the Beetle. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The Scirocco got 33mpg highway with an '85 Golf_//_GTI (100hp) engine under the hood. 



_Modified by where_2 at 1:34 PM 6-1-2008_


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## RxPx69 (Jul 24, 2006)

skateboard?


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## Soren (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: (RxPx69)*

Hoverboard! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AltoVista (Dec 19, 2007)

This is the answer we are looking for my friend. If you can find an early Rabbit that lived in the desert, so there is no rust. You will probably be pretty well set. You will spend a lot of money getting it to a "reliable" state will still be spendy, though. At this stage in its life, al the systems will need going through, brakes, suspension, clutch, engine in general.
Forego A/C, remember that you are living with a car that has 30 year old safety systems. It is built to motorcycle level safety standards, without ABS.
A four door will give you mad carrying capabilities.
Best of luck.
BTW, Bugs sucked when new. We drove them because they were cheap. Not because they were good. No brakes, sketchy handling, no heat, no safety, crap power, and they weren't really all that reliable. Used as real transpo, they would burn the valves in the top left cylinder. What made them a legend was the build quality compared to other cars and the ubiquity of the cars. At the time, the what we would consider mediocre mileage was good. 25 MPG in a world of 9-12 mpg cars was great. THese days, damn near every car can get that around town.


_Modified by AltoVista at 6:49 AM 6-14-2008_


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## JettaGLi16v (Mar 6, 1999)

*Re: (AltoVista)*

just bought a 1985 jetta turbo diesel. (thursday, drove it home from Miami)
I will keep this car forever.
Diesels are extremely reliable long term. This one has 175k miles, and runs about perfect. There are a lot of systems that are not there on an old (A2) Diesel. There is no distributor, ignition system, ecu, and a bunch of other crap. The motors are way more reliable than a gas car, and mine gets about 5oMPG.
AND, I found it for $2500... (but I was looking for nothing other than VW diesels for 3 months straight...)
In my opinion, another car you could keep forever would be a Passat TDi (B4 body). Motor has the long term reliability, but I think the interior wear and cost to maintain the Audi chassis would be high long term.
I also have a 78 camper bus that I will have forever. (because it has been in the family 25 years) It has a 2.0 fuel injected type 4 motor. Very easy to maintain this car as it has nydraulic lifters (no checking valves) and the fuel injection means the bus needs no carb tuning, and it runs well in all climates. It also has BIG disc brakes up front (still drums in back) and the same (in principle) torsion bar suspension that Porsche has used forever, and very low maintenance. 
All this assumes you are able to work on the car yourself. The way to do it is get in good with a parts store that will sell you GOOD, German parts at a wholesale price. Any of these cars can eat you up in sheer volume of cash if you are paying a shop rate by the hour for the work, or paying too much for good parts.
I have been in A2 and A3 VWs (exclusively) for the last dozen years. As long as you stay away from VR6's, They are all principally the same. From the 85 Jetta to my 91 GLi 16v, to my Ginster Yellow 98 GTi 8v (Currently for sale... plug!)The suspensions are all switchable (spring rates notwithstanding) the motor mounts, brake systems, motors, and transmissions are all interchangeable (with associated parts)
Everything you could want in a car can be found in the A1-A3 VW chassis. 
And forget that Japanese crap. Japanese cars are an entirely different driving experience. If you want an Autobahn worthy car that is ergonomically designed, go german. If you like being isolated from the road, and never having sufficient brakes, or Torque, Japanese cars are the way to go!


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## red_rock_beetle (Sep 9, 2007)

*Re: (JettaGLi16v)*

porsche 914 W/1.7 litre, somthing like 30 mpg and few grand for one restored


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## where_2 (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: (JettaGLi16v)*

*JettaGLi16v* Armed with a "How to keep your VW Rabbit/Jetta/Scirocco Alive" book, you'll be set for life. The A2 chassis wasn't much diferent than the A1 chassis that the book was written for. It reads just like the original "How to Keep your Volkswagen Alive" that I'm sure you must own since you've got an air-cooled vw...











_Modified by where_2 at 11:13 PM 6-28-2008_


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## justin_6649 (Aug 19, 2007)

honestly, BUY A HONDA
ill probably get blasted for saying it but its true


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## Soren (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: (justin_6649)*


_Quote, originally posted by *justin_6649* »_honestly, BUY A HONDA
ill probably get blasted for saying it but its true 

Nope, you're right.. It's all in the topic title... cheap, efficient, reliable.
I feel a little dirty when I stare at CRXs out on the street. They just seem so fun. And sooooo much more efficient than the VR!
Again, that said, I never intend to sell my car. Maybe buy another, but never sell. She's a part of me now.


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## Four_Footed_Beast (Nov 4, 2007)

*Re: (justin_6649)*


_Quote, originally posted by *justin_6649* »_honestly, BUY A HONDA
ill probably get blasted for saying it but its true 


We all hate the truth!!!








Look into a motorcycle. Cheep, easy to maintain, good on gas (30 mpgs or so), and its easy to park!!!
And if you are going that way get a Honda Motorcycle!!!!


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## markmarshowsky (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (Tye7)*

i hate to say this on a vw forum, but i think the car your looking for is a mazda miata. there bulletproof (lowest failure rate of any car one year, even lower than a honda civic), fun (convertable and fast in the twisties), economical (i got almost 20 mpg at 142mph, and 35ish if you slow down), and cheap. i bought several at $1000 (us) and a newer, nicer one can be had for $3500-$6000. good luck in your search.


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## rs899 (Sep 15, 2005)

As discussed above, any A1 Rabbit Diesel fits the bill ( I have had a Diesel Rabbit Pickup as described for 14 great years).
Another panzer-like cheap- to- keep forever vehicle is a Mercedes 240D stick ( also have one) I have gotten as much as 36 mpg on it (driven gently).


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## jabob (Jul 10, 2008)

Depending on where you live and the kind of weather you get, and how fat you are, a smaller displacement motorcycle or scooter should suffice. Sure, you're going to have to rent a truck whenever you want to move something other than yourself, you can't beat the mileage and maintenance on a bike. Think of it like this... it only has to carry you and maybe a backpack or a second rider around. Then again - it only has to push that much air out of the way and carry that much mass up inclines.
Other thought... My family had an '81 Rabbit Diesel that lasted almost 2 million miles. It'd been through something like 6 drivers, two transmissions, a half dozen sets of bearings and CV joints, 8 or so clutches, maybe a dozen water pumps, etc. Basically the stuff simply wore out. Other than that or being stupid, you couldn't kill the thing. It didn't have modern safety systems, other than the top speed being somewhere around 80 mph thanks to the low hp engine. When my older brother drove it, he got ~40 mpg and when my dad drove it he got somewhere ~55 mpg. If you can find one in good condition, they're not bad little cars. Just don't beat on it and you'll do just fine.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (Tye7)*

definitely Japanese if reliability is #1 concern. Go for the simplest Toyota such as corolla (or geo/chevy prism which is much cheaper and is the same car) or simplest civic, or a subaru with the 2.2l motor and manual tranny. Go for a manual transmission ideally with the clutch changed in the last 50k miles. Maintenance history is important (although not as important with japanese cars as european). I would try to find the best cared-for, most simple toyota, honda, or subaru 2.2l with a manual tranny. Avoid korean makes.


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## JDub8 (May 24, 2008)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (Tye7)*

I bought a 96 MK III Jetta 2.0 not long ago for $500 - 165K miles but it had had the water pump and timing belt replaced recently. I see plenty of similar deals on them all the time on craigslist and honestly, if you can go and test it, deal with a few quirks they are awesome cheap machines.
Despite having an old distributor cap, spark plugs, air filter and having the e-brake stuck on it STILL got 330 miles to the fillup of roughly 11-12 gallons. In other words for pseudo city/highway driving it got 27 miles to the gallon. Thats WITH all those problems (funny enough after the tuneup nothing changed on the gas mileage front). I drove 3/4 of at tank on the highway at 85MPH ... still got 330 gallons to tank.
Parts are cheap and plentiful, I hit a deer that crushed my hood, core support radiator, ac condenser and fans... went down to the local pick and pull junk yard and replaced it all for $150. (still have a broken windshield though). The 6 speaker stereo system sounds good whatever your tastes are in music. 
Mine came with a power sunroof, still present rear cupholder, still working AC and room to transport 5. As much as I like manuals this IS a commuter car, if given the choice I'd take an automatic over manual (plenty of those for cheap too) The Mark III strikes a very nice balance between economy and moderness, If you can live with 27~ miles to the gallon they're great.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V...ation - look at the others as well, The mark IV's are approaching that magic $1000 price point but things I've read on the wiki and around make me wonder if it would be much of an upgrade. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
All that being said the ULTIMATE A-B machine is probably like others have mentioned an old toyota or Geo. Though I cant speak for how easy they are to work on.


_Modified by JDub8 at 4:56 PM 8-21-2008_


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## Uber Richcreek (Jan 23, 2008)

*Re: (Four_Footed_Beast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Four_Footed_Beast* »_

We all hate the truth!!!








Look into a motorcycle. Cheep, easy to maintain, good on gas (30 mpgs or so), and its easy to park!!!
And if you are going that way get a Honda Motorcycle!!!!









What bike is getting that crappy milage? You running a turbo bussa? Haha Get a GS500F or somethinng, 50mpg if your not killing it!


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## burn_your_money (Oct 4, 2004)

*Re: (Uber Richcreek)*

Get a late mk2 NA diesel. There is pretty much nothing to break on those cars, and they last forever if you take car of them. Like 500 000 miles with no major work. I get 50+ MPG in mine on a regular basis. Yes, 50 US miles per US gallon.


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## gillano (Aug 4, 2005)

just buy a bicycle and a kid trailer (get used from craigs list)
get electric bike kit (good for 20+mph and 40 mile range)
if you need to go someplace far or hual your furniture etc you can rent a car/truck for the time you need with the money you saved
we use a tandem cruiser with a cargo trailer (home converted) to get groceries ($200 worth sometimes)...i've also hauled a Mk2 front subframe across town, and taxied a friend home (up hill too) by myself


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

*Re: (gillano)*

Don't talk to me about mileage. If you take my m/c, towing a tent trailer, plus my wife's, riding solo, the mileage starts to be close to what I get with my '04 Dodge Cummins. Motorcycles, in general, are not that fuel efficient, but oh my God, are they quick. BTW, my wifes '83 Honda 650 silver wing, (which are scarce as hen's teeth) will run all day at 65mph and get 50+mpg (US). But, my son's old NA rabbit diesel gets 45+ consistantly, t&f work, and it's warm and dry. I'm getting old, 54 years of biking speaking.


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## JDub8 (May 24, 2008)

*Re: (lloydbiker)*

why do bikes get less than excellent (100mpg) gas mileage? Aside from racing bikes and derivatives of course. Gear ratios? Honestly what?


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

The fact that most are not particularly aerodynamic, of course, has some bearing. Also, the available level of performance is definitely a factor. If you're looking for mileage, a small (under 500cc) max 2 cyl (less reciprocating losses) liquid cooled, 4 stroke, is the answer. Just don't expect to make any high speed highway trips.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (lloydbiker)*

if you are really cheap, don't even think about keeping a car forever.
buy a cheap honda or toyota or mk3, drive it till it breaks then throw it away and buy another. by the time something breaks its going to need everything. This is cheaper than trying to maintain an old car.
Really a scooter or motorcycle is the cheapest personal transportation if your just commuting and don't need to bring anything with you.



_Modified by Rocco R16V at 9:27 PM 10-9-2008_


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## embankmentlb (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: A cheap, effecient, reliable car for life. (Soren)*

I agree that the (old) vw beetle is hopelessly underpowered if you do much, or any, driving on the freeway. 75 to 80 mph is dangerous in a beetle, thats my opinion. They are however perfectly capable on any two lane road. Driving at say 60 mph is perfectly suited to the car. While they may not be for everyone. I own two air cooled VW's & they have been my daily drivers on & off for the last 15 years.


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## gillano (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (lloydbiker)*

i said BICYCLE as is movement by the power of your legs 0 gallons per mile
ok you gotta get h20 and bananas at least, 
it takes longer to drive my car and find a place to park and walk the 3 blocks to the door than it takes to ride my bike and go directly in the the door and change, but i do only live 2.5 miles (and up hill)from work
its great slipping through cars stopped at lights and beating them to the next one

i don't ride when its crappy out though like it is now


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## 4ePikanini (Aug 29, 2007)

all cars break eventually but if you look after them they will last longer.


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## GLIbeauty (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: (justin_6649)*

AGREED! ... HONDA: RELIABLE, GOOD GAS MILEAGE, CHEAPER TO MAINTAIN ... I had an accord, it was great! now I have a GLI it's BETTER but more expensive ... As said before though, with any car, treat her good and she'll last you longer but be it OLD or NEW, money will always be an issue 
GOOD LUCK


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## IRTermite (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: (AltoVista)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AltoVista* »_This is the answer we are looking for my friend. If you can find an early Rabbit that lived in the desert, so there is no rust. You will probably be pretty well set. You will spend a lot of money getting it to a "reliable" state will still be spendy, though. At this stage in its life, al the systems will need going through, brakes, suspension, clutch, engine in general.
Forego A/C, remember that you are living with a car that has 30 year old safety systems. It is built to motorcycle level safety standards, without ABS.
A four door will give you mad carrying capabilities.
Best of luck.

+1
My 84 Rabbit GTI has 330,000+ miles on the original un-rebuilt motor. All it takes is regular maintenance, respect for the vehicle, and care.


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