# Good DIY write up on 24v timing chain?



## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

*24v timing chain, idle issue diagnosis help?*

Picked up a Eurovan that was diagnosed with needing a timing chain replaced. Wouldn't idle, cam position codes (that didn't move with the sensors). Runs smooth from 1,800ish rpm up.

Has 152k on it so figured it needs it no matter what.

I have searched and searched and have not found a good write up of the 24v timing chain. (For example, just exactly where and how to line up the timing marks?)



Anyone know of one that maybe I'm missing? Anyone have a good source of info stored on their computer they want to share?

...or anyone in the Denver area want to come show me

I've been all over the UK T4 forum (vr6 is rare there), TheSamba(Eurovan and VR6 rare there too), the EV Update yahoo group,and here....

Thanks.


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## mk3_vdub (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm not 100% familiar with the axk (your engine code iirc), but I assume that the guides and tensioners are identical to a bdf.

there really isn't a DIY specific to the 24v to my knowledge, but you can follow the 12v one, just look up torque specs elsewhere. if you've done chains on a 12v before you'll probably be able to figure it out pretty easily. it's pretty much the same process with a little bit different parts.


that said, even at 150ish thousand miles I'll bet the chains are still fine. unlike 12v's we usually don't have chain problems. I'm at 135 and have no chain noise. when I did my clutch a few months ago I popped the covers and took a look at them and there was barely any wear.

I'd look into the sensors first. did you try logging that sensor's measuring block while the car is running with vcds?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, I haven't done a 12v either:laugh:


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

it's not a DIY per say, but I've been asked to provide timing details when I install the chains in my build. I just finished the lower chain and showed photos of the timing marks etc. The upper chain will be done in a couple days. Maybe it'll help you out.

It's pretty much the same as a 12v, tho. The 12v diy will help you.

24v internals guide


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

You can use the 12v chain DIY as a guide. It will get you 95% of the way. There is probably just going to be a few nuts and bolts in different spots.

12v DIY
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1264409

You will have to pull the trans to get to the lower timing cover. If you haven't already started do that. Align the crank pulley, pic 5/6 on the DIY I linked, and see if arrows on the cams line up with the notches on the head.










http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5641278-Puzzled-Timing-chain-replaced-fault-code-remains.
There are some really good shots of the alignment marks in this thread.


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## VW_OwneR_85 (Jul 31, 2010)

We dont have the 24v v6 eurovan here in the uk/europe as far as im aware its just north america that got it hence why its rare/none existant here , theres loads of guides for the 12v vr6 i would just follow them and then make your own judgemant calls


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks for all the links and input so far. I would LOVE some help from you guys to get th is thing running. 

I bought this van with a diagnosis of needing a chain and tensioners replaced. 

When I got it it had multiple misfire codes and a bad sensor code. 

Forgive the photos, I'm using a ancient computer that I can't export my vagcom from. 



















I cleared these codes and logged data block 208-209. The only code that comes back is the cam position code.

When I log those data blocks there is a missing field for block 208. I tried swapping the sensors to see if the problem moved with the sensors but it stayed on block 208.











I ordered timing chain kit from ECS and began taking the vr6 apart. I have just the upper cover off at this point. The van would not idle 90% of the time but ran smooth with a touch of throttle. No chain noise, but again it would not idle to the chain was always under a bit of tension. 

I lined up all the timing marks and locked them in place today. All the chain guides I can see from above look fine with very little wear. The chain was tight before I took off the tensioner with the upper cover. I can see the sprockets and they look good, teeth are not worn down. Lower chain as far as I can feel with a couple of fingers is snug. 

Honestly, if this is not the problem I would prefer to not remove the transmission and change the chain if I don't have to.

What else could be causing the issue? Could it be just a bad upper tensioner bolt? (Letting one cam slack off and not idle right until pressure is applied?) (I'd feel silly if it were that simple, but not as silly as the previous owner and two shops)

The back cam is off just a half mm or so compared to the front one. How precise are these? Could a cam adjuster be bad?


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## dik-van-dub (Jul 25, 2010)

so no help with diagnosing your fault but here a load of info on how to check and replace timing chains

http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?239642-R32-chains-and-tensioners


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

dik-van-dub said:


> so no help with diagnosing your fault but here a load of info on how to check and replace timing chains
> 
> http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?239642-R32-chains-and-tensioners


Thanks. 

BTW, this motor seems to have an excessive amount of carbon hard deposits in it. Is it possible that the cam adjusters are just being sticky and everything just needs cleaned up?


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

It is possible to be off by 1/2 a tooth, but it would be on both sprockets. Not just one. 

There should be 16 pins/links/rollers between the 2 arrows on the cams.

Maybe someone tried to replace them already and the intermediate is off by 180 or the crank is off by 1 tooth. It's not unheard of for this things to happen.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

There are 16 rollers between them and the cam lock is in place so nothing is 180* off(cam lock wouldn't fit both cams if that were the case) 

I bought the van from the original owner and have all the service history. No one has ever been into the cams before.


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

The intermediate sprocket is the one where both chains meet, not the cams or crank. But if no one has been in there it probably isn't off.

With how baked on that oil is the engine was probably ran pretty hot. I'm guessing chain stretch, and maybe a jumped tooth.

It sucks getting to the chains, but it would be a lot easier to troubleshoot if you can verify all the alignment marks.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

I can see the notch in the intermediate sprocket pointing up at me like it should. 

My guess at this point is that the chains are stretched, but not really the root of the problem. The baked on oil has probably gummed up the cam adjusters and tensioners to the point that they don't smoothly do their job. Even a moment of sticking could cause an over correction in timing issues and cause the poor idle. (Surging). 

I have the new chains here today so I guess I will go ahead and pull the transmission and replace them and clean everything up the best I can with brake cleaner. At least then I will have that maintenance item out of the way and know they are good.....and hope it solves the issue



......anyone in Colorado bored out of their mind today and want to help remove a Eurovan transmission:what:


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## mk3_vdub (Oct 18, 2006)

for the rough idle issue, if it still feels off once it's all back together, I've found that bumping up the idle speed by about 100-150 rpm helps idle smoothness a hell of a lot. did sai/evap delete on a car and it helps cold start a lot. as well as getting rid of flywheel chatter if you go to a lw fw.

using lemmiwinks :thumbup:


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks, I may have to try that. Fortunately I already have Lemmiwinks on my old VAGCOM laptop. 

This project had moved VERY VERY slow. What a pain in the butt vehicle to work on (and I've worked on some of the most classic "hard to work on" cars out there). 

I'm still battling with getting the transmission to drop free so I have access to the lower timing chain. :banghead: 

I have every bolt out of the headers and downpipe and can't get them to break free so that I can swing the motor down and forward to get the trans out:banghead::banghead:


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

honestly after 4 clutch jobs on an 02m I find it 10x easier to just drop the motor. That whole tilting, lowering, lifting on an angle bs is too much. 

If I don't have an engine hoist I drop the subframe. Then you have acres of room to do what you need to do.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> honestly after 4 clutch jobs on an 02m I find it 10x easier to just drop the motor. That whole tilting, lowering, lifting on an angle bs is too much.
> 
> If I don't have an engine hoist I drop the subframe. Then you have acres of room to do what you need to do.


 
Honestly, after dropping my MR2 Turbo and Audi S4 motor that way a total of 10 times I would normally agree with you:laugh: 

This just did not look like it would work out as easily since its torsion bars instead of coils. They run through some frame spots and over the exhaust, rear heater lines and gas tank. So it looks like all of that would have to come out too in order to drop the subframe with the engine and trans. The A/C also has a weird hardline that loops out infront of the motor and has no way to just set out of the way, even with removing the compressor. You can probably see that in the picture above. So it looks like the easiest way on this van is to drop/tilt the motor.......we will see....:facepalm:


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Just a little update. Took some time to work on the Eurovan today. (Only about an hour, I work slow)


Dropped the transmission out of the way. This thing will at least need totally cleaned up before going back in, and with a new external cooler. 










I don't see any obvious visible signs of anything wrong with the timing chain, tensioners or sprockets. But it's all getting replaced so hopefully this cures the problem and it really needed to be done anyway. Will also try to get all the carbon build up cleaned off all the sprockets etc before it gets assembled.....cause its a nasty mess in there!


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## builtvw (Sep 20, 2009)

anyone happen to know the chance on piston damage when a chain breaks, im looking at a 24v with a wrecked head, comes with a new head but the kid says he hasnt taken the other one off...i know sketchy but so cheap! just wanna know the possibiblty of other internal damage


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## jwwells (Oct 13, 2009)

Hey Thanks for this post. It really can't come at a better time. I picked up a Eurovan MV in the spring and have some misfires like you've described. I was assuming the chain was stretched and needs to be replaced.
Any chance you could do a little write up with pictures for the work you're doing. As you know and I'm realizing this would be a huge blessing to many of us with the Eurovan VR6.
A few questions:
Did you drop the subframe to pull the transmission?
Any hints I'm planning on doing this same project.
Can I fly you to Charlotte, NC when I dig into mine?!! LOL
Thanks again 



Xtremjeepn said:


> Just a little update. Took some time to work on the Eurovan today.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

I'd write it up but I'm flying by the seat of my pants here myself. :screwy:

No manual, no web write ups, nothing but having done other timing jobs as experience. :what:

I suppose I can put a few pictures together and comments on how I screwed something up at various stages opcorn:


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## jwwells (Oct 13, 2009)

Xtremjeepn said:


> I'd write it up but I'm flying by the seat of my pants here myself. :screwy:
> 
> No manual, no web write ups, nothing but having done other timing jobs as experience. :what:
> 
> I suppose I can put a few pictures together and comments on how I screwed something up at various stages opcorn:


That's exactly what I'll be doing (flying the by the seat of my pants), so it would be extremely helpful to snap a few pics while you have everything apart and write a few words. I think I can say with a 100% certainty I'm not the only one who would benefit in the future. Thanks!


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

I just took apart a 2002 24v VR6 Eurovan motor. From what I've read in the 12v timing chain threads the "ground tooth" should line up with the line where the main bearing cap meets the block. Which I just verified looking at the timing mark on the crank pulley. 

I did a rough paint marking of the sprocket before taking it apart. You can see that with the ground down tooth lined up with the block it is 1 full tooth off from where it should be?!!

(Obviously this could be my problem)

Should it go back together with the ground tooth lined up to the main cap on the 24v? Thanks!!


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## mk3_vdub (Oct 18, 2006)

yep it should. the chain must have jumped a tooth. if it was only one, you probably escaped any bent valves


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

So right now with everything tight on the lower chain the intermediate shaft doesn't line up "exactly"

No amount of moving the chain back and forth makes this line up 

Some threads say its okay, some say it must be exact?










With all the chains in stalled there is a touch of slack at the bottom of the upper chain. Again, no way around it. When you push on the upper tensioner to take up the slack it moves the came timing marks toward the back of the motor(so when the slack is taken up, the cam marks don't line up anymore even though the ca lock is in place? 

I read that the intermediate sprocket mark might be off 180*, some say it can of on either way  I'm about to take it all back I apart and try rotating the intermediate sprocket 180* to see if that changes anything.(it would put my marks I painted on way off though)


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Just to reply to my own question. I flipped the intermediate sprocket 180* and the marks do indeed line up perfectly. It also took all the slack and question out of the upper chain. So the posts I have read that say it can be mounts at 12 or 6 o'clock are WRONG:wave:


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

Xtremjeepn said:


> So the posts I have read that say it can be mounts at 12 or 6 o'clock are WRONG:wave:


Yep. 

Since there are 4 different tooth counts, close doesn't cut it. Close on one and close on another means it's way off in the end. I learned that the hard way. I was 1/2 a tooth off on the cams. The car ran and it could compensate being a few degrees off, but I had to pull the it all apart, without help this time, and getting running to make it to work on Monday. It sucked. I'm still bitter about it, and that I accepted close. Not anymore, if something is off I don't put it back together. I figure out why.

If you don't have a Bentley and need some info(like torque numbers) let me know.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Xtremjeepn said:


> The back cam is off just a half mm or so compared to the front one. How precise are these? Could a cam adjuster be bad?


mine is the same and was like that before disassembly. It doesn't line up 100% on the exhaust side no matter how I orient the adjuster, chain, and intermediate sprockets. Bottom end is @ TDC.

If I rotate the intermediate sprocket 180, both adjusters line up well to the left of the mark on the housing (way more "off" the marks than the other way around), so this is the closest I can get it.

on 24v cam sprocket alignment:



Arizman3 said:


> Remember that you must have both hydraulic adjusters rotated clockwise to their stops and DO NOT let them rotate off the stop when you install them. Get your motor at TDC, get cam bar in place, install intake adjuster/gear on Intake cam. Keep the chain tight on it's down run when you do this; *if the engraved pointer (arrow) on the hydraulic adjuster does not point exacly at the V indentation on the control hydraulic control casing, don't dismay, just make sure the pointer is just a little to the RIGHT of the V and not to the left*. Then, count 16 rollers on the chain and install the Exhaust adjuster/gear (don't let the cylinder rotate). Remember, it may be entirely possible that, at TDC, you won't be able to install the camshaft checking bar in the cam slots and that you may have to rotate the motor slightly past TDC (up to 5 mm in direction of rotation) before the bar will drop into the slots).


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, it's all back together......but....the problem continues

All new timing chains and tensioners. (Probably needed them anyway) double and triple checked the timing. Spun the engine around a few times and it all lined up every time and the cam lock could be inserted with the timing marks lined up. 

Car is hard starting, but does start. Will run but won't idle. (Runs slightly rougher than it did before the chains, but runs. )

If I hold it running with the throttle it will throw the 17755 Cam position bank 2/ g28 crank position sensor code. 

Swapped the cam position sensors again and the problem does not move. Also tried swapping just the connectors to make sure they were on right. Won't even start with them on wrong. 

When I log blocks 208/209 the cf block for 209 is still blank The idle correction for 208 went from -.5 to -.2 

I've read several hard starting and non idling posts that elude to the crank position sensor and/or a coolant temp sensor. I may start by throwing a crank sensor at it to see what happens. 

Any other ideas?


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## Eric D (Feb 16, 1999)

The Bentley manual has information on performing various functions after doing the chains.

- Adapting engine control module to throttle valve control module:

- Perform work sequence "Procedure after interrupting voltage supply":

- Read readiness code:

- If DTC memory has been erased or engine control module separated from permanent positive supply, readiness code must be generated again:


The following tests requires that coolant temperature is above 85 Cº.

Perform the intake and exhaust camshaft timing adjustments in group 094 and 096 per the Bentley.

If either test fails, it states that you should replace the cam gear adjusters (new bolts are a must, they are stretch bolts).

A faulty cam sensor or crank sensor will prevent the engine from adjusting the cam gears. The ECU will quickly determine this upon 1st cranking the engine and will have a fixed timing.

So verify your sensors work before dropping 1 grand or more on cam gears and actuators.

The manual also states to check oil pressure, since your motor had sludge, its very likely your pump may have a clogged pressure release valve. This valve isn't user serviceable, it requires a new pump. Some people first try soaking the pump in solvent to free it, but make sure to inspect the pumps gears and verify they are still within specs. If you do remove the pump, make sure you replace the tubes paper gasket (early type) or o-ring (later type).

If you had as much sludge as I suspect, you could also have a bad oil check valve in the block (next to cylinder #6 on the 24v and next to cylinder #1 on a 12v). This can only be accessed with the head removed.
There are 2 types and the early 24v are the same as the 1.8T and 12v motors, later ones are different and not interchangeable.

The easiest way to clean it with the head on is to use motor flush or the ATF trick, follow the directions on the can to a "T".
It may take several applications to free it depending on how much sludge the motor had. 
Its important to note that these products dilute your oil, so don't drive your vehicle during this cleaning process.

I often substitute 1 qt of oil for ATF on my oil changes, I do this as a preventative measure to keep the engine internally clean.

I suggest you purchase the Bentley manual to learn about these tests.

Hopefully on of these tests will solve your issue, and please post up your results as it helps other forum members.

Best of luck!


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Unfortunately I can't (won't) go out and purchase a Bentley. Other than my 1995 Panasonic Tough book (without internet connectivity and barely runs my VAGCOM) I don't have any platform to run a Bentley on. 

I have been running with an iPad only for over 3 years now and other than VAGCOM and Bentley it does more than I need. I've wanted to toss the Toughbook in the trash and move to an ipad/or android based diagnostic for years but hang onto the old beat up toughbook so I can run these old saoftware programs from companies that refuse to grow with it.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

.....and I had a Bentley for my 2000 S4 and was pretty disappointed with it. There were instructions like "step one, remove engine" then no follow up or reference on how to do so.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Did a TBA this morning with the VAGCOM.

Also swapped in a new coolant sensor since it was the only one I could physically get my hands on this morning. Crank sensor needs ordered, but it may already be a new one in the van. The PO said it was replaced to try to solve the issue, kinda dirty, but also kinda looks like a new sensor. Also tossed in some SeaFoam in the gas and oil.

Van runs smoother, still won't idle, can keep it running with a foot on the throttle. Gets random spikes of rpm. JD it running long enough to get up to temp with no change. 

Only real code is 17755 still

Thoughts?



(Spent about 4 hours screwing with my old laptop trying to get it connected to the Internet with no luck, seriously Bentley and RossTech need to step into the 21st century, I can't update my VAGCOM or offload data from scans:screwy


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Unfortunately, I'm becoming very good at taking this van apart. 

I tore it back down to the cam tensioners today and discovered a small steel screen wedged in one of the tensioner valves. This thing was really stuck in there. Took needed nose vice grips and hooking the plunger up to 12v to get it to let loose! 

Put it all back together and it actually starts and idles!!!!!!!! 

Only rain for 5 min before having to run to an appointment, but early signs are that this fixed the issue and it should run now. I may go home and put the rest of the van together and see if its driveable now!!


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

Xtremjeepn said:


> discovered a small steel screen wedged in one of the tensioner valves


You mean like the little brown/orange oval mesh screen sandwiched between the vvt housing and head that helps prevent debris from getting to that valve.











A lot of your issues make more sense now. A cam being forced into a advanced/retarded state would definitely piss off the ecu and mess up idle/driving.

If you can the vvt housing off it would probably be a good idea to try and flush it out. The 4 bolts that attach it should have triple square heads, it calls for them to be replaced once used.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Kinds sounds like a self defeating screen:screwy:

It looked square FWIW. Taking the whole housing apart was more than I wanted to do yesterday. 

I did put some Sea Foam in the crankcase and gas tank. The oil sludge that was in the motor seems to be disintegrating nicely even with just a little running since the Sea Foam. So hopefully that clears out the sludge and keeps the valves working.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Well crap! 

Van ran, idled fine. So I put it all back together and took it for a test drive. Made it to the gas station an now it's back to its old 17755 cam sensor code and not idling or running well!!!

Ideas?


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

did you end up getting the rear cam adjuster lined up?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> did you end up getting the rear cam adjuster lined up?


Yes, this post of mine below cured the rear cam adjuster.



Xtremjeepn said:


> Just to reply to my own question. I flipped the intermediate sprocket 180* and the marks do indeed line up perfectly. It also took all the slack and question out of the upper chain. So the posts I have read that say it can be mounts at 12 or 6 o'clock are WRONG:wave:



I do have an intermittent code that says the adjuster limits have been reached (will have to scan again to get the code numbers) but otherwise it runs great. Have put about 100 miles on it so far.


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## J_J_R (Jan 12, 2012)

Any progress or solution to date?


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

J_J_R said:


> Any progress or solution to date?


I've put about 1000 miles on it, runs great. Haven't tried to clear rhw light recently.


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## J_J_R (Jan 12, 2012)

At this point, do you think it was worth replacing the chains or just cleaning the variable cam system? I am experiencing the exact same issue at 108,000 miles and am trying to decide wether or not to do the chains when I am almost certain it's the issue you described.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

J_J_R said:


> At this point, do you think it was worth replacing the chains or just cleaning the variable cam system? I am experiencing the exact same issue at 108,000 miles and am trying to decide wether or not to do the chains when I am almost certain it's the issue you described.


I put brand new chains/guides/tensioners on mine and it didn't cure it. I also did not find anything wrong with any of them. The chains at 152k were the exact same length as the new ones. All tensioners felt the same as the new ones and there were no significant wear marks. 

Taking out the cam adjuster is simple compared to doing the chains so I would try that first..... Actually i would try the electric shock to free them up first. That is only a 15min job.


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## J_J_R (Jan 12, 2012)

I used the measuring blocks in VAG COM to determine that the ignition advance at idle is well over 30 degrees. This leads me to conclude the intake cam is stuck full advance at idle. I really appreciate your insight and info about the chain lengths worn vs new. Reinforces my theory that the chains on the 24v are not as fragile as the 12v.......

Did you replace the screens when you found them damaged?

Also can you brief me on the shock procedure?

Thanks again for posting your experience!


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## amanp13 (Feb 12, 2013)

First off, thank you for updating us on your progress. After weeks of searching, i found this thread describing the same exact problems I was having on my '02 Eurovan. Since I already had the upper chain cover off, I pulled a solenoid and sure enough there was a little piece of screen holding it open. Im glad you figured it out before I tried to do the chains and tensioners!

Did you ever pull the solenoid body to get to the screen? I did and I found the screen was almost completely blocked with bits of sludge. I would bet that if the oil filter lets that much stuff up there, the seafoam may have broken up some stuff and it may have jammed the solenoid partially open again, causing your problems after a short trip to the gas station.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Glad it helped. 

I've since developed what I think is a rod knock:banghead:

Van is back in the garage and mostly apart again. I'd love to see a picture of the rest of the screen in the timing adjuster housing if you have one!

I need to pull the pan and see just how bad it is in there. If I can track down the knock and fix it in the car then I'll probably pull the cam tensioner housing and see if there is more gunk in it.


The number one sign I've done this too much already? 



.....this was only an hour of work from driving it in the garage


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## SamiAK (Mar 11, 2013)

*SamiAK*

New member after reading your great post.

I am l iving the same nightmare on a Rialta on an 01 chassis. When I got it (83k), it had lost all teeth on the intermediate shaft upper chain sproket. (Others had mentioned a bad batch of sprokets.) A broken exhaust valve in #6 had shattered the piston and bent the rod. Removing the piston made some deep scratches, but I cleaned it up, found a used piston and rod. Found a brand new head on eBay. replaced timing chain and guides as required. Put it back together.

It started and ran OK for a few seconds then died with a rattle. I recalled turning the engine backward to line up the torque converter nuts. Compression check showed a dead cylinder. the exhaust cam had moved two teeth! Head back off 3 exhaust valve replaced. 

Head back on. Ran good. Then started showing #6 misfire. Comprssion low. Head back off. I had missed one bent valve.

Head back on Runs great! MIL came on. Generic codes P0340/P0345 problem with with sensor A circuit bank 1/2. Wiring OK swapped sensor locations. Clearing code will turn out the light untill I start slowing to stop. I am 90% sure timing is OK.

I don't have access to a VAG-COM but am working on getting it so diagnosed before opening it up again. Still runs great.

When dropping the oil pan to replace the rod, the axle and CV joint will have to be removed as I am sure you are finding out. If your pistons made vavle contact it could deform the pistons to lock the rings. I hope you find the knock is something simple. 

I had the old head repaired, a little weld and two seats replaced on #6 and 5 new intake valves . I found a BDF short block (Jetta) still has some cross hatch. 

car-part.com show the BDF six speed shortblock and the AXK eurovan interchange. This block has the trans bolt hole in the very back in the wrong location.But I think this is an easy thing to modify.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Thanks for the post. 

Having a VAGCOM will help you out a lot. I've had mine for 10+ years and have used it a lot and loaned it out a lot. Just wish they would step into the 21st century and make one I can use with my phone or ipad. 

Hope you get the Ralta sorted out. 

:wave:


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## amanp13 (Feb 12, 2013)

Sorry, I cant get as picture of the screen since I'm back at school now and the van is home in the 

shop. It looks like the brown/orange oval in the picture jo posted on the bottom of page 1 (post 

#35), but covered in fine bits of black junk and with a gaping hole in it.


Apparantly, the screen is not available from VW as a separate part, it only comes with the whole 

housing which is $1295. :what: Im going to look around the interent and see if I can get it 

someplace else. 


As for the oil pan, I think its a good idea to clean it out. I pulled mine and it was a mess. To get it

off, I had to take out the right axle and support as Sami said. I found that if you take out the 

torque brace bolt on the bottom of the transmission, it lets you swing the top of the engine 

backward which makes it easier to get the pan around the right side of the subframe. You may be

able to get it out without doing this but it makes it easier to get it back in once you have the 

sealant on there


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## SamiAK (Mar 11, 2013)

*Who'd a thought?*

Rialta saga: 

I made contact with a freelancing VW Tech on CL, Phad. His VAGCOM showed both camshaft sensors were not correlating with the Crank sensor. (The generic reader said there was a circuit prob with one of the cam sensors.) He suggested this was probably valve timing. 

I reluctantly opened it up again being 90% sure it was in time. There was still a question so I played arround with it until I could positively motor the starter several revs and when I brought it to TDC I could insert the notch tool and the marks aligned. The intake cam was abit tight and had to be finesed a little. (Metal removed during resurface? .5mm grooves in black guide?) But I have witnesses, it's in time. Took her for a drive, MIL lit. The P0340/345 codes were still there. 

Phad had suggested I start changeing sensors if it was in time. I had just looked at and cleaned the camshaft sensors. When I pulled the CRANKSHAFT position sensor there was a little fine fuzz on the center magnet. wiping it made a grey streak, so we are talking very fine. Put her back in. Test drove. NO MIL, the P0340/345 are still stored as pending, but I believe they drop after so many cycles. 

The shattered rings, honing and ring break in prob made most of the metal. The littlle bit of iron must have made an early/ prolonged trigger? I'm calling this one solved for now.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Interesting. I'll check that when I put it all back together.


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## kauboi (Nov 3, 2004)

Jo|\| said:


> Yep.
> 
> Since there are 4 different tooth counts, close doesn't cut it. Close on one and close on another means it's way off in the end. I learned that the hard way. I was 1/2 a tooth off on the cams. The car ran and it could compensate being a few degrees off, but I had to pull the it all apart, without help this time, and getting running to make it to work on Monday. It sucked. I'm still bitter about it, and that I accepted close. Not anymore, if something is off I don't put it back together. I figure out why.
> 
> If you don't have a Bentley and need some info(like torque numbers) let me know.


So, I should point the int gear pointer to the 6 o clock mark, and not the 12 oclock mark, correct?


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

kauboi said:


> So, I should point the int gear pointer to the 6 o clock mark, and not the 12 oclock mark, correct?


I've always lined up the intermediate gear to line up perfectly with the 12 o clock mark. Sometimes you have to rotate the gear to get it bang on with the mark. If it's a little bit off, it's a little bit too much.


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## greengeeker (Jun 29, 2007)

Thanks for the posts guys! Would love to hear if anyone has updates and whether or not they 100% fixed their issues. TIA.


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## leftychang (Mar 9, 2007)

just want to chime in here real quick and say this thread is very helpful and informative. just wish it wasnt scattered throughout the thread. there is a great 12v vr6 guide but there should be a 24v specific one made that makes mention of the cam adjusters being racheted to full tight and an explanation of how the cam adjusters work. there should also be more emphasis on the 12/6 o clock for the intermediary gear. my friend installed it at 6 oclock bc he read that it can be at either. the danger of unclear internet info i suppose.

this link is EPIC and explains the 24v specific stuff perfectly - hope it helps out others in the future bc it was hard for me to find the link buried in another thread
http://www.cfiamerica.com/24V.html

also working on eurovans is NOT fun lol i dont recommend it to anyone. they seem to have a cult following though


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## cos140 (Oct 14, 2009)

This thread has certainly helped me out!

I had very poor tickover but once you got above 2000 rpm it went well but used a bit more fuel than normal.

After reading through this post I decided to check the Camshaft Control Solenoids and low and behold there was a small piece of steel gauze stuck in one of them!!

I will be removing the housing that holds both of these solenoids in later on (once it stops raining) to see what is left of the original position of the gauze! My questions are:

Can you buy the gauze seperately?

Or how much is the complete unit, Item 5??

How can you check the operation of the solenoids? Is it simply 12vdc to actuate them?

Has anyone removed the gauze completely? (The gauze is located in the middle of the housing in the picture, oval part)


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## cos140 (Oct 14, 2009)

Ive just priced up the housing which comes with both solenoids - £741.42!!

Gauze not available seperately either


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## cos140 (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, after spending many hours stripping my engine down I found the culprit and it was as shown previously in this thread!!

I removed the VVT housing and hey presto, the gauze had been punctured. A big sigh of relief as the fault was found. 







I contacted A few Specialised VW Engine Tuning specialists and they all said that they have removed the gauze and debris and simply ensured that the oil is changed more often and make sure its good oil, not some cheap supermarket stuff. 

This is how I put housing back on, minus the gauze. I cut out the remains then used a file to make sure it all was smooth and free from swarf. Clean and then put into housing. 





The engine fired up straight away and smooth tickover is back. 

Happy days!!


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

jwwells said:


> Hey Thanks for this post. It really can't come at a better time. I picked up a Eurovan MV in the spring and have some misfires like you've described. I was assuming the chain was stretched and needs to be replaced.
> Any chance you could do a little write up with pictures for the work you're doing. As you know and I'm realizing this would be a huge blessing to many of us with the Eurovan VR6.
> A few questions:
> Did you drop the subframe to pull the transmission?
> ...


jwwells, I know it was two years ago, but did you happen to replace timing chains on your Eurovan back then? I'm getting ready to do that on my 2001 EVC, and any pictures and/or instructions are much appreciated!

-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Since I was not able to find any step-by-step instructions for doing VR6v 24v timing chain job, I think it might be useful to document at least some of the steps. I hope someone might find it helpful. I have a 2001 EuroVan, so this is gonna be EuroVan-specific.
But first off, let me thank Cole Ford (xtremjeepn) for his great posts on this and other forums. His work on EuroVan has always been an inspiration for me!

Eurovan engine compartment is rather small and to get access to the engine it greatly helps to remove front bumper and radiator. A/C lines don't need to be disconnected. Headlights need to be removed since there're two bolts behind them.










In order to remove intake manifold, alternator and secondary air pump needs to be removed first. Here you can see that they are blocking access to manifold's bolts.










There's twelve bolts attaching manifold to the head:










and three bolts holding it to the bracket near the heat shield at the back. Here's the locations of these bolts (manifold is already removed):










It helps to removed the throttle body first to get to the bolt on the driver's side:










Intake manifold is removed.










Once intake manifold is off, removing valve cover is pretty straight forward.










to be continued...

-albertr


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Great stuff AlbertR. :thumbup: Great pics too. :thumbup:

Maybe you want to start a thread for this in van section -- very useful for Eurovan owners.


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Thanks. Not sure about a new thread. I think this thread already has very useful information on 24v VR6 timing chains, but if moderator(s) want me to, I sure will create another one.
Here's a quick diagram showing location of bolts between VR6 (AXK code) engine and 01P (EQJ code) automatic transmission on 2001 EuroVan:










#1 - From tranny into engine crank case
#2 - Not used
#3 - From engine crank case into tranny
#4 - Not used (crane mount)
#5 - From tranny into engine crank case
#6 - From tranny into oil pan
#7 - From oil pan into tranny
#8 - From oil pan into tranny
#9 - From engine crank case into tranny
#10 - Not used
#11 - From tranny into engine crank case (nut), has a ground cable attached.


Here're the torque specs as per Bentley manual:

M12 bolts - #1, #3, #5, #9 and #11 - 80 Nm
M10 bolts - #6, #7 and #8 - 60 Nm

-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

A quick note on supporting the engine during transmission removal... On 2001 EuroVan flywheel side of the engine (the side which transmission bolts to) needs to be moved forward and then lowered in order to remove the transmission. Since the engine needs to be moved and because it's tilted forward, it needs to be supported from above. VW sells a special engine support bar (P/N 10-222A) which is installed above the engine and can slide forward. However, the same can be achieved by using engine hoist. And since engine hoist can freely move in any direction, it's more versatile.

Since engine needs to be supported from above, we need to locate the support mount on the flywheel side of the crank case (preferably on the top and/or on the front of it).
There's a mount available on the top just below exhaust manifold:










However, this mount is at the back of the engine, and it's not easy to attach to because of the hood. 
There's a support mount located in front of the engine next to oil filter housing, but since it's at the bottom of the crank case, it needs some adapter/extension.










VW sells a special bracket (P/N 3407) which attaches to this mount and extends forward and up. I have ordered it from vw.snapon.com ($44.13 + shipping).
Here' s the bracket they sent me:










However, this bracket needs some modifications to fit mount on VR6 AXK engine. The diameter of the pin is about 1mm larger than needed:










Here's the pin before:










... and after modification:










Also the bracket itself cannot be aligned with the engine mount:










Here's about how much material needs to be removed. Before:










... and after modification:










Now it fits and can be installed:










Below are some pictures showing it's position:









































However, attaching to this bracket doesn't give much of the clearance, and I don't like to take a risk of accidentally damaging fuel injectors:










A quick trip to hardware store and we have about 3" more clearance now (that's the longest bolt I was able to find locally):




















-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Let me step back and publish some of the pictures I took earlier, while I still remember it. Hopefully, someone might find it useful.
I have purchased Bentley manual on DVD-ROM for 1992-2003 EuroVan to find out that it has exactly the same information (imho quite incomplete and sometimes inaccurate) as AllData and Mitchel. It looks like all these publishers are using the same technical documentation supplied to them by Volkswagen U.S.A.

I had to cut opening in jack stands to match the size of EuroVan support rail.



















Having a rather small garage, I had to squeeze every inch to have some working space around the van.



















Obviously, the more space the better, the max I was able to get was approx. 19" between floor and bottom of transmission pan 
I've also got approx. 33" between the front bumper and the wall. 



















I had plenty of space on driver's side of the van (the transmission side), but got only about 24" on a passenger side.










-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Here's a summary of steps to remove the transmission on 2001 EuroVan to get to the timing chain covers.

While vehicle is still on the ground, loosen the drive axle bolts and wheel lug bolts. Disconnect the battery, put the transmission into neutral.
Jack up the van, put it on jack stands. The higher it's raised, the better (more space to work under it). Make sure there's sufficient space in front of the van as well as on both sides.
Remove the wheels.

Release tension from both torsion bars (left and right sides) by unscrewing nuts on threaded rods (measure the distance to the end of the rods before unscrewing nuts, so they can be screwed back to the same position and thus regain the same tension).










Remove bolts which hold drive axle to transmission flange shaft (14mm triple square head).
On driver's side there's really only one good opening to access the bolts so after you remove one, you need to rotate the drive axle/shaft to bring the next one into view. 

Have to use long extension too. To prevent shaft from rotating, jam ventilated disk brake rotor against brake caliper with a screwdriver.











Remove two bolts (14mm triple square head) holding lower ball joint to wheel hub. Remove the long bolt holding the anti-sway bar and bottom of the shock absorber to the lower control arm. Remove one bolt and one nut holding top of the shock absorber to the frame. Remove shock absorber.

Remove drive axle bolt. Turn the steering wheel all the way toward the side you are working on and then put a jack under the rotor and jack it up a bit. Carefully pull the drive shaft out of the hub. 



















Unbolt pendulum support from transmission.










Pull out drive axle from transmission. On driver's side, you'll have to tilt engine/transmission forward in order to get enough clearance to get axle out.
Since pendulum support is no longer holding the bottom of transmission, you can just stick a crowbar between the subframe and transmission and pry it forward a few inches until you have enough clearance to pull axle out.

Unbolt transmission extension shaft from its support bracket (two bolts):










Bentley manual suggests to remove its support bracket as well, but I didn't have to. Pull extension shaft out from transmission.










Remove exhaust manifold heat shield.










Because engine/transmission need to be lowered, Bentley says to disconnect exhaust down-pipe from exhaust manifolds.
Unfortunately, in my case manifold studs were so rusted, so removing them probably meant cutting them off and damaging the manifolds.










Instead, I decided to disconnect the other end of down-pipe from catalytic converter, and allow the pipe to hang on exhaust manifolds.
Before:










and after:










Replacing these bolts and gasket would be much less expensive than replacing both exhaust manifolds!
And it looks like the down-pipe still have sufficient clearance to hang by exhaust manifolds, here's the picture when engine was already lowered:










Disconnect all electrical connectors from the transmission including ground cables.
Don't forget connector to transmission speed sensor.










Remove starter (two bolts, one on top requires long extension).



















Remove the transmission dipstick tube if you have one installed.
Remove flywheel cover plate on top of the transmission (two bolts). Rotate the crankshaft by hand and looking thru the opening locate three nuts holding torque converter to the flywheel.










Unbolt torque converter from the flywheel. Use extension to get to these nuts.











Remove pendulum support (unbolt it from the subframe).










Disconnect the shift linkage from the transmission selector switch on top of the transmission.










Unscrew and remove linkage bolt completely, and then it will slide up. Don't use force to not damage the switch.










Here's a picture with linkage removed:










Remove shift linkage holding bracket on top of the transmission. It has two bolts in front:










and one bolt in back:










At this point there should be nothing left connected to transmission and it should be ready for removal.

-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

In order to remove transmission, the engine/transmission assembly needs to be lowered. 
Here's the setup I have used to support the engine on transmission side from the above:

1. VW P/N 3407 bracket described earlier:










2. Support bar made from the parts available in the nearest hardware store (these are 3mm thick 2.5"x2.5" steel solid angle from Lowe's). They go approx. 2' into frame opening on each side of the van. The piece in the middle is 4' long. If I had a choice I would prefer the 5mm thick angle, but was not able to find it locally.



















Hey, but I did some re-enforcement in the middle where chain is attached ;-)










3. From top of the engine I put some 4"x4" lumber beam across engine compartment with nylon straps tied up to exhaust manifolds.










Setup like this seems to be stable and prevent engine from moving.

Once engine support is in place, I used an engine hoist to raise the engine a notch. Then removed two nuts from transmission mount:










After the transmission side is no longer attached to van's frame the engine /transmission assembly can be lowered.
I lowered the engine by some 3.5":



















Here's a couple of pictures showing how much I had to move forward and down the transmission side of the engine:



















-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Let's continue on transmission removal... I was wondering what is the purpose of this mounting bracket which is attached to transmission mount?










Then I got an idea. Another quick run to hardware store and here's a nice attachment to support transmission from above (I used the longest bolt they had in the store for that thread):










And that 4"x4" lumber beam proves to be quite handy again!










I'm using two sets of nylon straps. That allows to hold the transmission with one strap while adjusting the other one to give it some slack. Then alternate them.










There're some mounting holes in front of the transmission (probably for attaching to transmission jack?):










I thought that I might need to apply some brute force in order to separate transmission from the engine and mounted some bracket there:










However, it turned out that I didn't really need it, since transmission quite surprisingly came out on its own when was unbolted from the engine.
It was hanging on straps from above and was jacked up from below. And when all bolts were removed (lower bolts are screwed into aluminum oil pan while upper bolts go into iron crankcase. Bentley manual said to unbolt upper bolts first, but I decided to do the opposite order), I was able to separate it without using any force and just slide it away from the engine.










Here's my very sophisticated transmission jack at work ;-)



















As you can see my van was raised high enough that I didn't even have to remove transmission mount from transmission when was sliding it away from under the van. 










-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Chain covers...



















Here're the torque specs as per Bentley manual:

- M8 bolts (#10 and #11) - 25 Nm.
- M6 bolts - 8 Nm.
- upper chain tensioner - 40 Nm.

-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Here's the picture of two rear crankshaft seals - Corteco ($23) on the left and VW ($60) on the right. As you can see it's exactly the same seal (obviously made by the same company), albeit Corteco has OEM marking shaved off ;-)










-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Here's a picture of the improvised tool I made to hold camshafts when removing VVT adjusters.










Adjusters and VVT housing is removed. They need to be cleaned to remove hard carbon deposits.










Another self-defeated VVT housing screen...










The strainer net is so fragile, it easily brakes in pieces with just a push of finger nail.










-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Holding crankshaft when removing flywheel.










In order to change the lower timing chain, both sprockets need to be removed from the intermediate shaft.
The intermediate shaft bolt is a stretch bolt and needs to be replaced as per Bentley manual. It needs to be torqued to 60 Nm + 90' (1/4 of the turn).
Holding crankshaft when removing intermediate shaft sprockets.











-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Here're some findings discovered during chains replacement...

Thermostat housing had a crack in the inner plastic layer.










Black plastic rails had some bits of material chipped out, like one shown on the picture below. Interestingly, non-black rails didn't exhibit this problem... Maybe black plastic is too brittle and starts to fail with age? 










Small intermediate shaft sprocket had pretty bad tooth biting on its internal side which was not noticeable until it has been removed.










And of course the damaged screen in VVT housing pictured earlier ;-)

Also, I have dropped the oil pan and removed the oil pump to clean it.

-albertr


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Testing VVT actuators using 9V battery.










Installing VVT housing after cleaning carbon deposits and removing broken screen which sits between housing and head. New top plastic rail. Metal seal rings on camshafts need to be oiled and then housing just slides in without using any force. If it doesn't go in, re-align the seal rings to center them and try again. Four bolts which hold VVT housing needs to be replaced as per Bentley manual and torqued to 8 Nm. 










Soaking cam adjusters in motor oil after cleaning and before installation.










When installing adjusters and before putting in the upper chain we need to make sure that adjusters are fully rotated counter clock-wise (preferably with oil inside) in the direction of the arrow until complete stop:










Adjusters have a dowel pin and can only be installed in one position related to the camshaft (the same goes for both intermediate shaft sprockets). Camshaft bolts are stretch bolts and need to be replaced and torqued to 60 Nm + additional 90' (1/4 of the turn). Bentley manual suggests to have bolts and surface of the adjacent components (whether adjusters or sprockets) be clean and dry (not contaminated with oil) so correct torque specs can be achieved. Intake adjuster is marked as "24E" while exhaust adjuster is marked as "32A". They are different and cannot be interchanged.

Here's a picture of improvised tool to hold camshafts in place while removing/installing adjusters.










On 24V VR6 engine camshafts are lined up (as opposed to 12V design), so "locking tool" is ... well, pretty straight ;-) 










New chain was put in. There are no milled tooth on adjuster sprocket. Instead there's a laser-etched arrow engraved next to adjusters marking ("24E" on intake adjuster or "32A" on exhaust adjuster). There should be exactly 16 rollers between these arrows.










If the upper chain has colored links, it makes it visually easier to count 16 rollers.










I'm not quite sure on purpose of these three colored links... As you can see, the intermediate shaft sprocket is timed to 6 o'clock, and the notch on small sprocket is located across the middle colored link... It looks like it will be located right next to the middle link should it be timed to 12 o'clock... Maybe that was the original purpose of these three links - to give a visual indication of upper chain related to intermediate sprocket?










The following excellent DYI was a big help since there seem to be not that many differences between 12V and 24V VR6: DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6

-albertr


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Your motor is timed to 12 o'clock, and mine is timed to 6 o'clock. It looks like in either case these three links give a visual reference point to the notch on intermediate shaft sprocket?

-albertr


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Probably


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Installing transmission turned to be a little bit more involving. I had to use a second mount point located towards the rear to hang transmission on two nylon straps and raise it slowly by jacking up either front or rear of transmission.










Here're the torque specs as per Bentley manual:

Engine to transmisison - M12 bolts - 80 Nm. These are bolts #1, #3, #5, #9 and #11 on picture posted on previous page.
Engine to transmisison - M10 bolts - 60 Nm. These are bolts #6, #7 and #8 on the same picture.
Pendulum support to transmission - 80Nm + 90' (1/4 of the turn).
Pendulum support to subframe - 200Nm.
Starter to transmission - 45 Nm.
Drive shaft to flange - 80Nm. Bentley manual suggests to replace these bolts, but I didn't.
Large hex bolt on drive shaft - 150Nm + 90' (1/4 of the turn). Bentley manual suggests to replace these bolts, but I didn't.
Torque converter to flywheel (three nuts)- 60 Nm

-albertr


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

Can the upper timing cover be removed without taking the valve cover off? I'm trying to remove the VVT solenoids. I've removed all the bolts and the thermostat housing and it won't come off. Thanks


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

jackrosenfeld said:


> Can the upper timing cover be removed without taking the valve cover off? I'm trying to remove the VVT solenoids. I've removed all the bolts and the thermostat housing and it won't come off. Thanks


No. There are two long bolts that stick yo from the upper timing cover through the valve cover.


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

That's what I thought. Thanks! Going to remove the alternator and secondary air pump now...


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

jackrosenfeld said:


> That's what I thought. Thanks! Going to remove the alternator and secondary air pump now...


Why would you remove the alternator?


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

To take off the intake manifold. It is blocking the lower manifold screws.


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

jackrosenfeld said:


> To take off the intake manifold. It is blocking the lower manifold screws.





If you say so . I've done this a few times and never removed it


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

Nice valve cover:thumbup: This is basically my first time doing work this involved. Crossing my fingers that I don't see the infamous worn intermediate sprocket. This car is so hard to work on


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

jackrosenfeld said:


> Nice valve cover:thumbup: This is basically my first time doing work this involved. Crossing my fingers that I don't see the infamous worn intermediate sprocket. This car is so hard to work on



The worn sprocket is really isolated to the 12v engines. Yours should be fine. 


Removing that alternator is no biggie. Just teasing you about it.


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

Haha. Okay. My engine was starting up and idling fine when cold, but once it got out of the "high idle" period, it would run rough and quit. I was sometimes able to keep it going by pressing on the gas, but it would eventually die. This leads me to the conclusion that the VVT system is clogged up (probably by that stupid screen). 

I pulled the cam position sensors and noticed that there were layers of dried oil sludge on them. Could this have also been a culprit of the rough idle? Maybe affecting spark timing? I can't imagine what's on the solenoids if I found that much sludge on the sensors alone.


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## Tiros (Apr 4, 2014)

jackrosenfeld said:


> Haha. Okay. My engine was starting up and idling fine when cold, but once it got out of the "high idle" period, it would run rough and quit. I was sometimes able to keep it going by pressing on the gas, but it would eventually die. This leads me to the conclusion that the VVT system is clogged up (probably by that stupid screen). :


I don't understand how you get to that conclusion. Lots of things can cause similar symptoms.
Are you tossing cam codes?


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

In previous posts, Xtremjeepn talked about how the broken screen could have been forcing the cams into a retarded or advanced state. I thought I would pull the plungers out and see if the screen is broken and jammed into the solenoid, restricting movement. I'm also going to pull all the sensors I can to clean them just in case the sludge that's dried on them is causing false readings.

I'm really new to engines in general and don't have much experience with mechanical work... So I'm kind of just "winging it". :laugh: I don't have a scanner, but I should probably purchase one if I'm going to be working on this car again. Forgive me if I sound like a total dummy talking about this stuff.


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

Just pulled my crank sensor... Was dirty and had small metal shavings stuck to it. Maybe a contributor to the rough start and idle problems I was having? Possibly throwing off ignition timing? I'm guessing it's a mixture of the dirty cam and crank sensors.

I haven't been able to get the manifold off yet because I rounded off one of the air pump bolts:banghead: It's the only thing keeping me from getting to the solenoids.


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

Anyone have trouble pulling the VVT actuators? I've got the two screws out and I'm pulling on it with significant force. I'm scared I'm breaking it.


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

Another question... Where do you guys get your stretch bolts from? The ones that hold the adjusters onto the cams. Thanks!


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## Tiros (Apr 4, 2014)

jackrosenfeld said:


> In previous posts, Xtremjeepn talked about how the broken screen could have been forcing the cams into a retarded or advanced state. I thought I would pull the plungers out and see if the screen is broken and jammed into the solenoid, restricting movement. I'm also going to pull all the sensors I can to clean them just in case the sludge that's dried on them is causing false readings.
> 
> I'm really new to engines in general and don't have much experience with mechanical work... So I'm kind of just "winging it". :laugh: I don't have a scanner, but I should probably purchase one if I'm going to be working on this car again. Forgive me if I sound like a total dummy talking about this stuff.


So you are tearing the engine apart, and pulling vvt assemblies because it runs rough and someone else ran rough and that's what it was?
If that's all your going on, that's just crazy.

Is your MIL on? Your not gonna get anywhere without a code reader.

FWIW there would be a crank/correlation code if the vvt was the problem.


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## jackrosenfeld (Mar 28, 2015)

Yep, I'm pretty crazy for doing this!

My check engine light is on. The rough running problem was intermittent, which lead me to believe that maybe the oil passages in the VVT system are clogged up by the screen or carbon deposits. There's some serious baked on oil sludge on the adjusters, so there's probably worse inside.

I'm pretty sure my mechanic scanned it and was getting cam codes or misfire codes (can't remember which one), but since the engine sometimes ran nicely, and with all of these problems people are having with the VVT, I'm thinking it's the problem.

I do understand, however, that this problem could be a whole bunch of things. As I mentioned earlier, my crank sensor had tiny metal shavings sticking to the tip of it, and my cam sensors had a TON of dried oil sludge on them. Probably to the point that it could have caused false readings.

I should really borrow a code reader from someone once I've got this thing back together:laugh:


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## albertr (Aug 9, 2014)

Like previous poster said, you'll need to read the fault codes first. 
I don;t remember any troubles with removing actuators. Just work it slowly and carefully to not damage them.
I got stretch bolts from local VW dealer. Bolts are not very expensive, and local dealer is close to my house, so it was a matter of convenience.

-albertr


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## VWJETTA0 (Nov 18, 2016)

*cam adjuster timing*



albertr said:


> Testing VVT actuators using 9V battery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


seen many write ups on how to install the cam adjusters, and some say turn all the way to the right (clockwise), and some say left (counter clockwise). I'm going to replace my head gasket this weekend, and I've marked everything but just in case, which way do i preload the adjusters. colckwise, or counter clockwise?....thanks


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## Vanforever1 (Jan 22, 2017)

*Misdiagnosed timing chain?*

Hello all,
(Note: I'm a novice compared to this discussion but believe I have been able to follow it, my apologies if not dead on...)

I hope to revive this thread as I have the same '03 Eurovan VR6 24valve with identical symptoms, same codes and diagnosis from local shop as a timing chain. I have no chain noise but same high carbon build up. Replaced a crusty camshaft position sensor to no avail (man that would've been nice) so took it to a local shop who said it is a $4.2K job (after $450 in serial testing). I said give me the keys and hobbled back home by keeping foot on gas and break at stops to keep above 1K rpms (stalls out intermittently at idle, but hate doing it to this notorious transmission). Sitting at home wondering what to do w/ this van that clearly nobody wants to work on (even Oil Can Henry's said "we don't do those" geez). Then I recalled that they said the engine vacuum was very low (something like 4psi vs 18psi spec). Compression was fine and they said all hoses were fixed (replaced a T-connector hose to master cylinder or something rather?) but I'd think a poor vacuum would have something to do with the timing issue, somehow or another. I've noticed a black vacuum device on front left of engine resembling the old school carb/vacuum/advance but connected to the block not to the distributor (I don't believe it has one w/ coil packs over plugs). I'm grabbing at straws but hoping to avoid dropping the engine/trans to find no problem like the originator of this thread. Who knows, maybe a rigorous soaking of engine/injector w/ solvent or something would blow out a chunk of something else and get the vacuum back up? Or is it possible that the ECM needs time to adjust to new parts? Please throw out any guidance on the source of low engine vacuum because I'd hate to have this awesome vehicle end up as the guest house up at the well! (just can't part w/ it - too many good memories) 

Sorry for the long email... hope it makes sense... 

Thanks,

Mike


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## vwevaner55 (Jul 20, 2017)

*Eurovan timing chain issue*

I was reading your thread but it ended without resolution, I have the same problem. I took my engine out to replace the timing chain and gear and to my surprise everything was in perfect condition, just like yours. I'm at a loss. Could it be the vvt solenoid?


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## kite_rider (Jun 11, 2009)

*Questions on transmission removal..*

Following the steps outlined for the 01P Eurovan transmission removal best I can; but have a few challenges.

1. Should the oil filter holder be removed from the engine block? It might be getting in the way of one of the bolts connecting the engine to the transmission. If so, is it best to drain the oil first or is this part over the resting oil level? It also looks like this gets in the way of the engine support hole at the bottom of the block. *EDIT* I drained the oil from the filter (via the allen screw on the bottom) and just unbolded this device and then hung it with a wire from an intake manifold bolt. This made it much easier to get on one of the bolts going from the engine to the transmission. 

2. Removed the thermostat housing, but am not sure if the "crack pipe" needs to be removed as well. Looks like I can get to everything, but it may be more limited once the engine support is installed. *EDIT* I left the cooling pipe in place, it didn't get in the way of the transmission removal.

3. Am considering taking off the eight nuts that hold the exhaust manifold to the exhaust pipe (also considering just removing the bolts at the cat converter instead). Any tips on the best angle to get at the nuts? Do people work from the top or the bottom on these? For example, I can get a short wrench on the nuts from the top or a long socket and some extension and wobble fittings from the bottom. Neither is great if these turn out to be really rusted on. *EDIT* Like Albertr did in previous posts, I took out the 3 bolts that connect the down pipe to the cat converter and found that the engine had plenty of room to move to get the transmission out. Some mechanics I've talked to don't remove anything at all from the exhaust and manage to get the transmissions both in and out.

4. There is a special place in hell reserved for people who use the wrong tool when working on cars. The two triple squared bolt heads on the passenger side ball joint are messed up from someone inserting the wrong tool in there. I can't get my triple squared bit to fit in. Am considering hammering in an Allen bit to see if I get enough purchase to get the bolts out but am not sure if it will work (any other clever ideas to remove these bolts are welcome!). Everything else for the axle removal has been done. Would I be able to get the 'intermediate' drive shaft out the transmission if I remove it's bracket and just work around this unbolted drive shaft while it is still in the wheel hub? *Edit* I was able to take off the nut from the lower ball joint and release the wheel hub there. One of the two bolts came out, the other messed up one is still in there. When I get the van running again I'll take it to someone who has more extraction bits to work on.

5. Finally, any tips on holding the crankshaft while removing the flywheel? I'm not there yet, but am unsure about how I'll go about this. *Edit* This was actually easy. I just set up my socket wrench on the 27mm flywheel bolt and fixed an attached cheater bar to the suspension arms and that held it in place while I took out the bolts on the other side.

Thanks!


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## McPikie (May 14, 2019)

cos140 said:


> Well, after spending many hours stripping my engine down I found the culprit and it was as shown previously in this thread!!
> 
> I removed the VVT housing and hey presto, the gauze had been punctured. A big sigh of relief as the fault was found.
> 
> ...


I know this is a looooong time ago, but how did this run with no gauze?


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## quikdime (Jun 23, 2019)

Help please. I have a check engine light on. I took to a VW independent who diagnosed the problem as a stretched chain. I checked with my hand held scan tool.....No codes. After scouring through forums, I am really confused. I like to wrench on cars as a hobby myself. However, I have never worked on a 2003 Eurovan before. My Eurovan drives beautifully. Idles fine, has power up to redline. 177,000 miles. No maintenance records from the seller (he was the second owner since 2005). Any advice? I purchased the van out of state. The seller never told me about the check engine light. There have been other issues the seller never disclosed to me. If I decide to do the chain/guides etc, do I need to remove the trans? Any help is appreciated. BTW, the independent mechanic quoted me $3,500.00 parts and labor. Please advise. Thanks


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