# Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor?



## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

Sister has 03 Passat GLX and I get a call from her a few hours ago that her CEL started flashing rapidly and the car was running like crap. She was 45min away from town and had her two daughters w/ her. I drove down, picked them up and scanned car w/ VAG-COM. 
16730 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163): Implausible Signal 
P0346 - 35-00 - - 
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected 
P0300 - 35-00 - - 
16688 - Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected 
P0304 - 35-00 - - 
16690 - Cylinder 6: Misfire Detected 
P0306 - 35-00 - - 
16689 - Cylinder 5: Misfire Detected 
P0305 - 35-00 - - 
I cleared the codes, restarted the car and it still idles like crap and CEL immediately started flashing again. Same codes. So, I'm assuming it's the camshaft sensor. I found the part in town and am ready to buy it, but unfortunately my Bentley is on my other computer and I'm waiting on its warranty replacement power supply, so I have no idea where this is located, tools needed, etc. I'm planning on packing almost every tool I have b/c I don't want to make this drive more times than necessary. 
So, any help please? 4,5,6 is driver side bank right? I'm guessing that the sensor is behind a timing cover and from pics I've seen of the sensor, it's just one bolt that holds it in. Any other suggestions? Car has 75k miles I think


_Modified by The Mailman at 10:37 AM 12-31-2009_


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

The camshaft position sensor is an easy swap. Two 10mm bolts if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, this part will not cause misfires when it fails only a general loss of power across the power band. 
What is the milage for the current timing belt interval? Any recent engine repairs?


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (DieGTi)*

No engine work since she's owned it (few months and 6-7k miles) and car is completely stock. Current mileage is 86k. I've told her since day 1 she needs to start saving for timing belt, but she has naturally ignored me. I do the work for free, so it's not even that big of an expense!! Your reply isn't encouraging though. 
I picked up the camshaft sensor from Discount on Sat and just got around to looking at the swap a few min ago. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the sensor would be on front side of head by timing belt (behind timing belt cover). There is a sensor there, but it's behind a metal shield that runs behind timing belt and that sensor is only a 2 prong plug and sensor I was sold is a 3 prong plug. I've seen this sensor online (ECS) and know that it definitely is a camshaft sensor (also called "hall sensor"), but I'm starting to wonder if the design was changed during the 2.8's life cycle (even though ECS shows same design for '03). Any thoughts? Am I looking at wrong thing? It's dark out, but I don't see too many other harnesses in that area - unless of course I'm looking in completely wrong area. 


_Modified by The Mailman at 11:08 PM 1-4-2010_


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

G163 is at the back of the head on the driver's side (in the USA) of the car. The 2 prong item near the timing belt is the continuous camshaft adjustment actuator and not a sensor. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The fact that all cylinders are on a common bank would have me looking at factors common to that bank: o2 sensors, timing belt/timing chain, head gasket. Otherwise, follow the instructions below that I copied and pasted from another misfire thread that I responded to. Please respond with your results. 

_Quote »_
With the Vag-COM, observe "Measuring Blocks" 15 and 16. These blocks will show you the misfire count for each cylinder individually. It is quite common for a single cylinder to misfire and trip the multiple cylinder code. Watch for one cylinder counting more misfires than the others and focus your trouble shooting strategies in this area. 
A) If you have 1 cylinder counting more then begin by checking:
1) Compression (ask a mechanic to do this if you don't have tools)
2) Fuel injector (swap with low-misfire count cylinder, 5mm allen and flat head screw driver). If misfire follows the fuel injector to the good cylinder then fuel injector is faulty and should be replaced.
3) Spark plug (swap with new)
4) Spark plug wire (check resistance with multi-meter)
B) If all cylinders are counting misfire at about the same rate then begin observing the sensor values in measuring blocks 2-5 for out of spec conditions. 
1) The Ross-Tech software provides the spec values on the screen above the observed values. Note: O2 sensor values will likely be out of spec as the RESULT of a failed sensor elsewhere in the system. O2 sensors should be replaced only after all other sensors and conditions are verified within spec with symptoms persisting! 
2) Firing order - the cylinder numbers are identified on the valve covers near the spark plug holes with the plastic covers removed. The firing order of the coil is imprinted on the coilpack; check that the spark plug wires go to the correct cylinder.
3) MAF sensor - there is a recall open on this item for the large particle screen coming loose and lodging in the intake and/or throttle body. Check the screen and ensure the plastic retaining ring is salvaged from the part if you replace it. You will need to install this retaining ring on the new replacement MAF sensor.
C) If two cylinders are counting misfires at the same rate then focus on the coilpack. The nature of the design of the ignition system is such that two cylinders share a coil. The pairs are cylinder #3 and cyl #5 on one coil, cyl #2 and cyl #4 on the second coil and cyl #1 and cyl #6 on the third coil. The ignition control module is sealed and attached to the coilpack and servicing requires replacement of the entire coil pack.
1) If Cyl's #3 and #5 are misfiring together more than the rest then you likely have a bad coil or bad ignition control module.
2) If Cyl's #2 and #4 are misfiring together more than the rest then you likely have a bad coil or bad ignition control module.
3) If Cyl's #1 and #6 are misfiring together more than the rest then you likely have a bad coil or bad ignition control module.
Please pass this on to other people experiencing misfires and rough running conditions.


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (DieGTi)*

Appreciate the help - I'll pull my VAG-COM out now and give it a shot. She said it was driving fine, she pulled into a parking lot and then it started running like crap. An immediate issue I guess could be a failed sensor - it could also point to timing belt, but the car still runs (and I believe 2.8 is a interference engine. I highly doubt head gasket). She left it there and that's where I picked it up w/ a trailer. It does run, but sounds like a rough running diesel and MIL flashes constantly (starts as soon as you start car). It had enough power to get up on trailer, drive into my driveway, etc, but I'm afraid to drive any further than that or give it any real "gas".


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

Okay - messed w/ car for a few min - damn cold out though (at least for FL - 29*). I found the sensor - buried more than I'd like, but prob not the issue anyway. I ran VAG-COM and in 15-20 seconds or so, cyl 4 & 5 showed 20 misfires and cyl 6 showed 50, so looks like my issue lies w/ 6 (but I guess whole bank is still a possibility). Should I buy a new coilpack? Is there an easy way to test for that?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

It doesn't sound like a coilpack because the cylinders are not common to a single coil. All 3 cylinders are out of spec (max being 5 counts per cylinder). I would suggest pulling the plugs and reading them. If they're black and sooty or wet then we'll know more. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (DieGTi)*

Okay, I'll do that tomorrow. I didn't understand what you meant about "cylinders not common to a single coil", but just looked it up. I didn't realize this car used a traditional coil / wire setup - just assumed it used coilpacks like the 1.8t I use to own or the 3.0 in my A6. She's only had this car 4 months and I haven't had to do any work on it (or any 2.8L for that matter), so I'm really going blind here. I really need to get my other computer up & going so that I can access my Bentley again. 
One thing I didn't mention is that a few weeks ago it threw a code about a gas recirculation problem, but it was intermittent. I erased code and it hasn't come back since. Not sure if this would come into play at all.


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

Well, not good news. I don't think it's terrible news, but I guess easily could be if my diagnosis is wrong. I pulled the plugs tonight and cyl 4 was fine - black - looked rich, but not terrible. Cyl 5, I pulled plug wire and it was covered in oil - halfway up the boot. I pulled plug and it obviously coated in oil - plug was black and burnt oil on the porcelain part. Cyl 6 was same thing. 
Soooooooo, what exactly does this mean? This car has never burned oil (at least that any of us saw or smelled). It's a little low on oil, but not bad. No leaks. No other CELs until she pulled into that parking lot and it started running like crap. With all of that being said, the only place I can think of that oil could come from would be the valve cover gasket. It does look pretty grimey along the whole lower edge and when looking down the plug "cylinders" it looks like it's possible oil had been seeping in. I find it odd that it could just "go" like this, but have no other answers at the moment. The pistons looked pretty black and all plugs on that bank were too, but that is easily explained if oil were shorting the plugs - no spark = rich running, etc. 



_Modified by The Mailman at 8:58 PM 1-7-2010_


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

Okay, replaced valve cover gasket. I also installed new plugs. Started it up and same damn thing!! It sounds awful. Only let it run a few seconds, but cyl 4 was 31, cyl 5 was 35 and cyl 6 was 43. I had cleared codes before I started it and the only one that came back was the implausible signal for camshaft sensor - not sure why it didn't trip the misfire code - maybe bc I was watching them in realtime?!? 
I pulled wires and no oil back down in plug area, so it appears the gasket was its source. Is it possible wires are bad too? I guess they could've shorted out, but after checking the price on those, I can't afford to just buy them to find out that's not the issue either - my sister has no money, but I'm not looking to sink a ton into this for her either. I just want it running again. 


_Modified by The Mailman at 3:00 PM 1-10-2010_


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

The cause for the oil is probably the PCV system.


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tryin2vw* »_The cause for the oil is probably the PCV system.


I understand that can cause the gaskets to leak - which it clearly was - but now that it's not leaking, I can't figure out why it's still not running right and misfiring on the driver's side bank. 
Since I don't know much about this motor (although I believe it is closely related to my Audi's 3.0 V6 - basically my motor is just an updated 2.8L I think). This is an interference engine right? I was starting to wonder if the timing belt jumped a tooth or something, but I thought even if it did that then there would be contact. And wouldn't the other bank misfire? 
I'm totally lost on this one.


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

Try running a compression test. The engine is an interference engine and has an idler roller immediately upstream of the cam shaft. If that roller has lost a bearing, it puts the relationship between the cams and the crank out of time and is a precurser to a failed timing belt. To see this roller, the top left timing betl cover must be removed and you may be able to see it. It is behind the viscous fan bearings. See item C in the link below.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Volks...iming/
I believe you have the part, but have not installed it. I have been following this thread, but don't see where you have actually replaced the CPS. It is on the back side of the engine between the fire wall and the head. A minor PITA to reach, but is only held on by 2 bolts, so no major surgery is required. 
The timing belt on the 2.8 should be changed between 80-85k miles, so if you are close, maybe it is time do do the complete job.

Modified by adding the link information


_Modified by tryin2vw at 5:21 AM 1-11-2010_


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

When you had the VC off, did you check the timing? The key notches on the cam chain sprockets will align with the arrows on the bearing caps like this:








Realizing you just did the VCG, you may not have thought to check the timing this way. This will tell you if the timing is off a tooth, but not which or if components are failing. Put the timing mark on the crankshaft dampener pulley at TDC, then look for the cams to align like shown. If they are off, then something is not correct.
Doug
modified by adding information.




_Modified by tryin2vw at 5:37 AM 1-11-2010_


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*

Funny you mention a bearing. When I removed the pan from under the car, I found two ball bearings on it. Might be totally coincidental, but I found it odd and was curious how they could have gotten there. I'm not good w/ mm/cm, so can't even begin to guess their size, but they were larger than a BB, but quite a bit smaller than a marble. For whatever that's worth. 
No, I didn't check timing. I honestly thought it was just misfiring b/c of oil on plugs, but once I tried restarting, I regretted not checking the timing while I was in there. I didn't know what to look for anyway though. Thanks for the pic - huge help!! 
I had installed the camshaft sensor when I first got the car home, but that obviously didn't help. I then discovered the oil. When I was changing VC gasket, I swapped OEM sensor back on b/c it was already mentioned that it wouldn't cause this issue and I figured it was the oil shorting plugs anyway. Guess I'll throw it back on just for the hell of it - is a PITA, but only takes 5min. Figure that's my last shot before I'm diving into this engine head-first. I really hope nothing is internally damaged. Timing belt needs to be done b/c car has 85k on it - I've been saying it since she bought the car 8k miles ago, but she's the type that just expects to get in a car and go - it shouldn't require work


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

I bought my car with a failed timing belt. The idler roller had disintegrated and there were bearing balls all over the place. They were about 3/16 inches in diameter. That led to a failed timing belt and 2 rebuilt heads, parts total costing $1800. To get a service person to do this would cost $3-4K.
If you have found 2 bearing balls on the car, then it is highly likely that item C in the picture link has failed and is throwing off the timing of the car. It is a $60 idler, but you must remove the timing belt to replace it.
See this thread:
http://www.passatworld.com/for...96787
(I am GSO in that one)
Have your sister pony up for the timing belt kit, about $365. At a minimum the following should be replaced, Timing belt, timing belt tensioner, timing belt tensioner roller, water pump, thermostat, new coolant (it will all need drained anyway). Cam seals are recommended, but not absolutely necessary Here is the write up for the timing belt change. To change the roller would take 90% of this write-up anyway. If the kit is purchased from Blau, you can rent the needed tools for $35 (Cam bar and crank pin at a minimum). You can also buy the tools (about $110) or borrow them.
http://phatcat_ed.tripod.com/V6.htm
Modified by adding link and information about the possible ball source
_Modified by tryin2vw at 8:25 AM 1-11-2010_


_Modified by tryin2vw at 8:26 AM 1-11-2010_


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

IM Sent.


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

also see here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4388319
or here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4718422
or here:

http://phatcat_ed.tripod.com/V6.htm

Added additional links


_Modified by tryin2vw at 8:38 PM 1-11-2010_


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*

You're a HUGE help!! 
3/16" sounds about right. Yeah, did the timing belt on my A6's 3.0 - not a fun job, but from my understanding, it's one of the most difficult of VAG motors, so hopefully this car goes smoother. I ordered mine from Blau and rented their tools and it was great - instructions were very helpful too. That will be the way I go on this car too - kit is basically same price as ECS's (although you get to keep their tools), but ECS's kit doesn't seem as complete. Hopefully we found it before any damage was done. It will still start and run right now, but just like crap, so that leads me to believe that no contact has been made. I'm not chancing it any longer though.


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

I sent an email to you. It has one PDF attachment of about 475K in size.
If the engine still runs, you probably caught it in time. Just do not run it too much more until the timing belt is changed. I too used the Blau Kit, but I own the tools already.
Good Luck.
Doug


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*

Please keep us posted with your results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

And pictures too! I am guessing it is the idler roller that has failed.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*

...and?


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

IM/Email sent. Any resolution?


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*

Kit from Blauparts arrived yesterday. I tore into the motor & tryin2vw, you were right!! The idler looked intact, but had totally separated - the rear seal disintegrated and ALL bearing balls were out. Once I examined the inner "wheel", it was obvious it had overheated bc metal had turned blue and bearings must have locked up bc there were gouges carved into inner "wheel". There were also several nicks and even a crack in the timing belt that started to go all way through!! I'll take pics later and upload them. 
As for the idler, I know you said it's common, but I noticed a lot of dried coolant in that area and all down front of motor. I'm thinking that contributed too - guess water pump was seeping? I noticed coolant was NOT the right color - appears someone has mixed orange in at some point - hopefully no issues w/ radiator down the road.
I stopped once I had everything disassembled, but cam sprockets don't appear to be 100% straight across - look slightly off, but I haven't tried installing camlock tool yet. What are chances this idler messed w/ timing - jumped a tooth? There was also a lot of slack in belt on passenger side before it went into the tensioner area - I could move it up/down quite a bit and even start to slide belt off of pass. sprocket. If tool doesn't fit, is it safe to slightly turn cam sprockets so that they're straight and tool will install or is it best to pull valve covers to verify their timing marks? I'll be diving back into reassembly in half hour or so. 
One last question though - did you bother with changing cam and crank seals? I didn't when I did tb on my Audi, but they showed no signs of leaking and car only has 60k miles (also seemed more of PITA than this car). This car also shows no signs of leaking, but has 87k miles and all of that dried coolant around crank area makes me worried some may have seeped to seal. Opinions?


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

Glad you caught it in time. With the idler roller bearings gone, it will put the cams out of time, so the "ears" will be off. Once the belt is removed, use the cam bar as a lever to crank things back into time.
I changed the cam seals with my second timing belt change at 200k as they are relatively easy, but left the crank seal alone as that appears to be a PITA to do. With 216K on the clock, no issues with the crank seal yet. You may not necessarily need to do the cam or crank seals as long as a proper OIC is followed, they may not be needed for a while.
The crust from the coolant is probably the water pump seal failing. Putting Orange coolant in is not harmful to the system like putting green as orange is the same type of coolant, just mixed for GM and not for VW. Both are based on OAT chemistry.


_Modified by tryin2vw at 7:51 AM 2-19-2010_


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

It is the idler roller bearing failure that caused the 4-5-6 cyl misfire. I for got to add that to the previous post.
Doug


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Mailman* »_ 

I stopped once I had everything disassembled, but cam sprockets don't appear to be 100% straight across - look slightly off, but I haven't tried installing camlock tool yet. What are chances this idler messed w/ timing - jumped a tooth? There was also a lot of slack in belt on passenger side before it went into the tensioner area - I could move it up/down quite a bit and even start to slide belt off of pass. sprocket. If tool doesn't fit, is it safe to slightly turn cam sprockets so that they're straight and tool will install or is it best to pull valve covers to verify their timing marks? I'll be diving back into reassembly in half hour or so. 


The extra belt is the slack from the failed roller. The crank sprocket pulls the belt from the Passenger side cam sprocket, across the water pump and from the driver side cam sprocket to the idler roller. The only place excess belt can accumulate is between the crank sprocket and the passenger side cam sprocket where the tensioner is located. If there is too much belt there, in this case due to a shorter path created by the bad roller, the tensioner cannot perform as designed.
It was just short of slipping and creating valve damage.


_Modified by tryin2vw at 8:59 AM 2-19-2010_


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*

Fortunate catch!


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (DieGTi)*

Well, tried putting cam bar on and it didn't work - out of alignment. I examined pass side valve cover and it too had leaked oil into spark plug area, so I am replacing that gasket too. I pulled cover and saw those cams where just slightly off - I used the cam bar to turn them so that their marks lined up and viola! - the cam bar fit on both sprockets!! So, car is in sync and now I just have to put it all back together. You guys rock!! Thanks for all the help!!!
PS - called nearest dealer and they wanted $2200 for this same job - tb, all associated pullies, water pump, tensioner, both valve cover gaskets, oil, air filter & spark plugs. I'll have around $600 into it + a little misc for crappy hard vacuum lines I broke - just have to go to parts store and find suitable rubber hoses


_Modified by The Mailman at 1:32 PM 2-19-2010_


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

The vacuum hose will be a 3mm-4mm hose.
Check the PVC system for clogging, specificlly at the plastic Suction jet pump at the back of the driver side head (looks like a small cyclone). It may be clogged or the plastic hoses may be cracked.
Doug


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (tryin2vw)*

those cam sensors are easy to replace in the back you just need to pull the pcv hose back to pull it out.


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## The Mailman (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (Slimjimmn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slimjimmn* »_those cam sensors are easy to replace in the back you just need to pull the pcv hose back to pull it out. 


Yeah, that wasn't the problem though - ended up being a disintegrated idler pulley for timing belt. All is well now


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

Glad to hear things are better. Your sister dodged a huge expense by you catching the roller before the timng belt cratered.


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## tryin2vw (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: Please help ASAP - GLX stranded my sister and 2 kids - camshaft sensor? (The Mailman)*

Because of the other issue, you might suggest a short oil change interval for the next change or two, with good oil.
Your sister is lucky to have a brother like you.


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