# Water Injection : Who is using What?



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Looking into Water Injection systems as high quality gasoline is getting rather expensive.Aquamist came highly recommended and I was hoping to get some Positive feedback as to the pros and cons (if any) of such systems.
The system I have been looking @ is Aquamist 1s

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 4:48 PM 8-7-2005_


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

I have nothing against water injection and I've never used it personally but i don't see how it can be compared to a nice fuel like c16.
now...if I hear that a water/mix will give me the same benefits and let me run the same advance/boost...I'm ALL ears...


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## Ohio Brian (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (vdubspeed)*

I ran an aquamist 1s before I had an intercooler. Worked well, it's still on the car, I just haven't put the nozzle in the intercooler pipe yet.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Ohio Brian)*

I ran a 2c on my Neuspeed Charger setup. It worked well, but I didn't have any tuning capabilities with that setup. I was only assuming it needed the colder charge temps. 
Definitely get the 2c. It includes the "high speed valve" which modulates the spray based on injector duty cycle. Also be sure to get the check valve. 
Leave your lines long so that you don't pull them out of the push-in fittings with heavy motor movement. 
Also, mount everything off the motor. I made a really sweet mount to install it all on the motor and burned up multiple solenoids. The switches and solenoids cannot take engine vibration. 
If you decide on Aquamist, get it from Brad at http://www.kcsaab.com/. Brad was more than generous in helping me with my setup. When I did the setup I was a total no0b, so he put up with alot








Evan 
Here's a few pics of my old setup. Again, I do not reccomend mounting the solenoid on the motor. Read their installation instructions carefully to see what you can and can't mount on the motor. 








http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi1.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi2.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi3.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi4.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi5.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi6.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi7.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi8.jpg


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (vdubspeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_
now...if I hear that a water/mix will give me the same benefits and let me run the same advance/boost...I'm ALL ears...

well, I have no experience with VW's and water injection...but a lot of srt4 owners with "turbo toys" use it. Turbo toys has a 110 octane mode button that advances timing to match the higher octane gas, and the button pops out to low octane mode if the engine experiences any knock. To make a long story short- with water/methanol injection (windshield washer fluid) people are able to run high octane mode on 91 octane gas


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (vdubspeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed* »_I have nothing against water injection and I've never used it personally but i don't see how it can be compared to a nice fuel like c16.
now...if I hear that a water/mix will give me the same benefits and let me run the same advance/boost...I'm ALL ears...

That is precisely what water/alky injection will do for you. Consider that water is not flammable at all. It thusly has an infinitely high octane rating. Alcohol does burn but it does so at a slower rate than gasoline. So... finely atomized mist of water or water/alky solution will raise the octane rating of your air/fuel charge with a similar effect to race gas. 
Racing fuel costs big bucks, but one the initial expense of a WI system is paid up front its just pennies from that point. The best thing about it is that you can run that kind of high boost all week long. -not just at the track. Guys who only drag race may be better off with running race fuel. But, for those lead foots who need the boost all week long... WI can be a wonderful solution.


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## Tommy D (Oct 10, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (GTTechnics)*

I bought a kit off ebay from cooling-mist. The parts on the kit are good except for the wireing harness. I have yet to install the kit in my g60 Corrado. What flow rate nozzle do you use? I ordered the smallest one available one gallon per [email protected] 100 psi flow rate. pump pressure is 150psi. If injection into the engine doesnt give me good results, I will inject water onto the outside of my innercooler.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Issam, the WI world is split into two main camps: Aquamist and everybody else. The boys from England have been at it for a long while now with great exposure from Ford during the 1999 WRC season, etc. Their 3D controllers are absolutely incredible bits of technology and their high-speed valve is an outstanding piece.








However, that's where my appreciation for their product ends. Their proprietary pump is weak and does not really offer any significant advantages over the ShurFlo pumps that all the other quality vendors rely on. The advanced systems are industrial art, but if you need that kind of fine control you should be using standalone engine management to run everything.








*Shurflo Pump*
Consider that there are two major "musts" when it comes to using any of these systems successfully. First of all you have to spray the correct amount of solution at the right time. Some way to match the spray volume to the engine load is required for that. Simple boost switches don't deliver ideal results. Secondly, you need fine atomization at all load ranges.
The basic Aquamist kit is relatively expensive, yet uses a simple on/off boost-trigger switch. So, you'll spray at full blast which may cause the engine to bog or stutter. Or, if you spray a quantity that won't create a bog at the trigger rpm you won't have enough detonation control as the boost climbs. The next level up in the Aquamist product line uses their truly wonderful high-speed valve. However, you need either SEM or one of their controllers to use it. Either one costs big bucks.








*Aquamist HSV*
USRT has been using WI for years. After designing our own systems we decided to rep the Snow Performance line of products for reasons of cost-effectiveness as well as engineering quality. Their entry-level systems are less expensive than Aquamist yet are able to match the trigger point *and* the spray amount to the boost curve via a variable rate controller. What's more their nozzles are designed to not dribble at low line pressures which is a problem that plagues many other kits.








*Snow Performance Variable Rate Controller*
For those adventurous lads with standalone engine management a really great combo would be the Snow Performance Stage 1 system packaged with Aquamist's HSV. USRT will more or less be offering that in the coming months. We already supply Snow's general product line.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*

Scott - you don't need SEM to use Aquamist's High Speed Valve. 
I used it by tapping directly onto my #1 fuel injector. Basically just tapped off the 2 wires on my injector and voila. It worked like a charm. 
That said, you could theoretically use Aquamist's High Speed Valve inline with any pump / boost switch / etc. 
Just a thought, 
Evan


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## Ohio Brian (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (2kjettaguy)*

Little off topic, water injection is banned from the WRC next year.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

I first used the SHURFLO pump in my own WI system 4 years ago or so. The Snow Performance system is a step in the right direction, but they have no pressure feedback in their control loop and are relying purely on hard-coded numbers to vary power to the pump to control pressure. The result is that it's going to change significantly with battery voltage and variances in the pumps.
I've been working on my own fully-programmable-via-PC system with true pressure feedback with MAF / MAP / IAT inputs. Hopefully I'll get it to a point where I can offer it to other people some time in the future.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_For those adventurous lads with standalone engine management a really great combo would be the Snow Performance Stage 1 system packaged with Aquamist's HSV. USRT will more or less be offering that in the coming months. We already supply Snow's general product line.

Thanks alot Scott http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I have 5 GPO's to spare with my IIc setup so getting the WI system wired up is not going to be a problem.
Now say I only get 89 RON @ the pump.What kind of boost can I "safely" run with both 89 RON + WI?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Scott - you don't need SEM to use Aquamist's High Speed Valve. 
I used it by tapping directly onto my #1 fuel injector. Basically just tapped off the 2 wires on my injector and voila. It worked like a charm.

Evan, not all injector drivers are created equal. Some will burn with such an increased current load. Also, an injector whose signal cable has been tapped to drive the HSV may not open as quickly as it should since it may not receive all the power it is supposed to get. I'm not an E.E., but my hotrod intuition says that this is a risky thing to do.
How did your WI work for you in general, btw? Were you able to run more boost or boost/timing without detonation?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_The Snow Performance system is a step in the right direction, but they have no pressure feedback in their control loop and are relying purely on hard-coded numbers to vary power to the pump to control pressure. The result is that it's going to change significantly with battery voltage and variances in the pumps.

Marty, I've never seen/heard of anybody having such tuning troubles before. Theoretically, though, that's an interesting point. I'll bet that ECUs are pulling timing if/when this occurs. If such a voltage-related safeguard could be produced for a reasonable price, it would make sense to add to a kit.

_Quote »_I've been working on my own fully-programmable-via-PC system with true pressure feedback with MAF / MAP / IAT inputs. Hopefully I'll get it to a point where I can offer it to other people some time in the future.

Well, I'd certainly like to know more about this system. I'll bet I could help you distribute it in significant volume, too!

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Now say I only get 89 RON @ the pump.What kind of boost can I "safely" run with both 89 RON + WI?

That's hard to forecast exactly. However, we've done 25psi pulls on a 1.8T (AWD) without any timing retard at all. That was on a 50/50 mix of 87 and 91 octane. A slight amount of fuel was trimmed out via Lemmiwinks.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*

Hey I've also been working on a controller. Mine will be a little simpler since there's no point in needing a laptop for something this simple, although you could go all the way. My system is more along the lines of a Haltech F5, only not RPM dependent (RPM is a pain to measure). I'm thinking without the RPM circuit, the final product could go for USD40 shipped within the US. Add 10 bucks for it to be RPM dependent. The system could be used for Water systems as well as a nitrous or even as an AIC (with the RPM option). It´s all the same. With software changes the same hardware could do boost control.
Speedy G


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## 2dub2euro (May 5, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Yea, im in the market also. I have my eyes locked on the Snow Stage 2. Seems to one of the best on the market.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (2dub2euro)*

Scott do you have an online installation manual for your system?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

But, of course, sir. Here ya go.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_But, of course, sir. Here ya go.

My Air Intake temperature Sensor is right before the Throttle Body.Is it ok if I mount the water injection nozzle there or you recommend inside the plenum?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

You can mount it in either place. So long as your IAT sensor doesn't electrically mind getting wet, the cooling effect will be factored in by the sensor which is a good thing. If you mount it after the throttlebody you'll need to run a solenoid to eliminate siphoning. Easy.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_You can mount it in either place. So long as your IAT sensor doesn't electrically mind getting wet, the cooling effect will be factored in by the sensor which is a good thing. If you mount it after the throttlebody you'll need to run a solenoid to eliminate siphoning. Easy.

Its a Bosch 1.8T unit


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## adcockman (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Well guys, I just ordered mine (snow performance stage 2) from Jegs Sunday night. I'm open to any suggestions. I will prob. use the factory resorvoir. I'm presently seeing 11.2 -11.5 psi (80-85 degree weather) at 6800 and my a/f is definately safe. 11.3-11.7. I'm seeing about 3 psi by 3500rpm. 
My present configuration:
01 12 valve vr6
256 DSR FI cams
Header/no cat 
irridium plugs NGK range 6 ?sp
VF stage 3 which includes vortech v9 charger and FMIC. Review kit at http://www.vf-engineering.com
A/F and boost readings are from zeitronix wide band w/electonic boost sensor.
What outcomes should I expect? How much would you expect I could advance timing etc? What would be a good mixture? I'm waiting for the new GIAC 100 octane file. I hope it will be available in 2-3 months. 
Much appreciation in advance. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by adcockman at 11:25 PM 8-9-2005_


_Modified by adcockman at 11:34 PM 8-9-2005_


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## KeithMac (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (adcockman)*

I`m running an Aquamist 1s sytem, usung MegaSquirt to set firing temp/rpm/boost pressure. <May move over to the HSV later and map it with MS when I find the limits of the simple 1s system.
I fitted it instead of an i/c to cool the charge and eliminate knock, which it did so I`m very happy!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (KeithMac)*

Are you guys with the Standalone mapping the WI against your boost or RPM map?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

WI is best delivered according to your detonation curve which is most directly correlated to engine load. So, using your MAP or MAF voltage is the best way to go.


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

WI is the way to go... the setup i´m currently driving (which is a buddy´s) uses Tec3 and a 7th injector which kicks on at 5psi... this setup runs pure methanol though.  When it kicks in the tires rarely stick up to 3rd gear... even with a Peloquin and 9psi. At 15psi, 4th will sometimes break loose coming onto the freeway. This setup is no intercooler and down in Florida... right were the heat is. Personally... I´ll never run intercooler again. 


_Modified by AAdontworkx3 at 4:28 PM 8-14-2005_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (AAdontworkx3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AAdontworkx3* »_WI is the way to go... the setup i´m currently driving (which is a buddy´s) uses Tec3 and a 7th injector which kicks on at 5psi... this setup runs pure methanol though. When it kicks in the tires rarely stick up to 3rd gear... even with a Peloquin and 9psi. At 15psi, 4th will sometimes break loose coming onto the freeway. This setup is no intercooler and down in Florida... right were the heat is. Personally... I´ll never run intercooler again.

Well I have 4 extra IGN drivers and 3 GPO's (eating those up rather nicely) so getting a trigger is not going to be a problem.
Scott about the bling?


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## homeless (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (AAdontworkx3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AAdontworkx3* »_WI is the way to go... the setup i´m currently driving (which is a buddy´s) uses Tec3 and a 7th injector which kicks on at 5psi... this setup runs pure methanol though. When it kicks in the tires rarely stick up to 3rd gear... even with a Peloquin and 9psi. At 15psi, 4th will sometimes break loose coming onto the freeway. This setup is no intercooler and down in Florida... right were the heat is. Personally... I´ll never run intercooler again. 

_Modified by AAdontworkx3 at 4:28 PM 8-14-2005_

if you f-up my car i will kill you doug!!!! actually, break my tranny, you can get me a 6-speed to replace it


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## Scott F. Williams (Oct 14, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Scott about the bling?









Bling? -in regards to the pump? Well, the pumps that we've got are slightly more attractive than what I pictured. And, you could probably polish up the body a bit. But, it definitely is not a blingin' piece of hardware.







It is, however, plenty strong enough to place in the trunk with a big bottle back there, too.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Scott F. Williams)*

Nah I have enough room to the right of my engine bay that I can place it there.
Post an updated picture man!How can you be forum sponsour and not have picture of products?


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## storming (Aug 15, 2005)

how would wi work with cis?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Hey, your finger is too fast on the unhappy face trigger. Here's your not so blingin' photo, Wiz.

















_Quote, originally posted by *storming* »_how would wi work with cis?

There's nothing about WI that is incompatible with CIS engine management. However, there aren't too many CIS-managed engines that need the detonation control that WI provides. What have you got up your sleeve?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Hey, your finger is too fast on the unhappy face trigger. Here's your not so blingin' photo, Wiz.

















meh
ill hide it in the cabin


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## adcockman (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (adcockman)*



adcockman said:


> Well guys, I just ordered mine (snow performance stage 2) from Jegs Sunday night. I'm open to any suggestions. I will prob. use the factory resorvoir. I'm presently seeing 11.2 -11.5 psi (80-85 degree weather) at 6800 and my a/f is definately safe. 11.3-11.7. I'm seeing about 3 psi by 3500rpm.
> My present configuration:
> 01 12 valve vr6
> 256 DSR FI cams
> ...


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## Scott F. Williams (Oct 14, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (adcockman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adcockman* »_What outcomes should I expect? How much would you expect I could advance timing etc? What would be a good mixture? I'm waiting for the new GIAC 100 octane file. I hope it will be available in 2-3 months.

What can you expect? Well, it depends on the tuning. Without any changes at all you'll probably lose a little power with WI. My tests have mostly been with 4-cyl engines, but we got 0deg timing retard on a very maxed out K04 drinking 91 octane. And, I've been able to run a 75 shot of nitrous on 93 octane in a high-CR 16v. More or less WI is very much like running racing fuel. It's helpful *if* you need it.
As for the spray mixture the best detonation resistance comes from pure water. A 50/50 ratio of water/alcohol usually produces the best torque. More alcohol takes the heat out of the intake charge the fastest. More water takes *more* heat out of the intake charge if you can get it all to evaporate. Tuning with WI takes experimentation.


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## TURBOPHIL (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Scott F. Williams)*

Great info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif defomately something to look into.
Scott, send me an IM with the price on your WI system.
later


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## storming (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*

garret t3 turbo


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## adcockman (Apr 17, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Scott F. Williams)*

Well I appreciate the feedback. Has anyone be able to see gains on a boosted VR? If so what did they do the see the gains?


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## wolf rocco (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (adcockman)*

i got one of those cheater ebay kits made a very big diffrence for my car


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (storming)*


_Quote, originally posted by *storming* »_garret t3 turbo 

Okay, so you're running boost with CIS "management". You're a prime candidate for the protection that water/alky injection delivers because you have little if any ability to fine tune your fuel and ignition curves.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Okay, so you're running boost with CIS "management". You're a prime candidate for the protection that water/alky injection delivers because you have little if any ability to fine tune your fuel and ignition curves.

Scott a friend of mine who is a forum member (longitudinal is his nick) just did CIS using an Mercedes-Benz fuel distributor.How would he wire up a WI system if he doesnt have anything like standalone to control the pump?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Scott a friend of mine who is a forum member (longitudinal is his nick) just did CIS using an Mercedes-Benz fuel distributor.How would he wire up a WI system if he doesnt have anything like standalone to control the pump?

CIS applications would be best off using the Snow Performance variable controller with the built-in MAP sensor. You set the manifold pressure trigger point and also the point where full injection should take place. The controller ramps up the pump's pressure accordingly. That controller retails for just $129, btw. It's a very easy and clean way to go.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Yes, that's exactly how you'd do it, boss. Easy stuff. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
CIS applications would be best off using the Snow Performance variable controller with the built-in MAP sensor. You set the manifold pressure trigger point and also the point where full injection should take place. The controller ramps up the pump's pressure accordingly. That controller retails for just $129, btw. It's a very easy and clean way to go.









Ok so I just run a Vaccuum tube from the plenum to this unit as well as hall from the distributor then the ecu does the rest?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Ok so I just run a Vaccuum tube from the plenum to this unit as well as hall from the distributor then the ecu does the rest?









Whoa, how'd my answer show up before your question?







Anyway, I think you added the bit about the hall signal after I answered before. RPM is not factored in with that controller. Rather, the spray triggering is engine load-dependent.


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*

i have thought about WI for a long time... especially since i can only get 91oct from California pumps http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
plus my intercooler sucks


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (the4ork)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the4ork* »_i have thought about WI for a long time... especially since i can only get 91oct from California pumps http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
plus my intercooler sucks

try getting 87RON @ the pumps then you will see the need WI.
Scott give me a breakdown of all the parts I am going to need and remember I am using the GPO from the IIc to control this thing.


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## Scott F. Williams (Oct 14, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Scott give me a breakdown of all the parts I am going to need and remember I am using the GPO from the IIc to control this thing.

Okay, a superb kit would be made up of the Snow Performance Stage 1 kit...








...the Aquamist HSV (high-speed valve)...








...and your O34EFI's general purpose output to pulse the HSV. This would give you all of the control of Aquamist's 2C system, a stronger pump, and save you a pile of cash. I can provide you with the Snow kit, but I don't currently sell the HSV. We're working on a good replacement for that truly great part. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Scott F. Williams)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scott F. Williams* »_I can provide you with the Snow kit, but I don't currently sell the HSV. We're working on a good replacement for that truly great part. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Ok so looking at about $500US for everything I need?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Yep, something like that. I'm not precisely sure what the HSV is running these days. I'm working on a replacement to bring costs down, too.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Yep, something like that. I'm not precisely sure what the HSV is running these days. I'm working on a replacement to bring costs down, too.

It still puzzles me that the Snow kit doesnt use a vaccuum signal like the Aquamist unit.Whatever the case ill just map my GPO against the Manifold pressure map.


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_It still puzzles me that the Snow kit doesnt use a vaccuum signal like the Aquamist unit.Whatever the case ill just map my GPO against the Manifold pressure map.

what about their MAF based kit? it looks promising but I don't know anyone that has it


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_It still puzzles me that the Snow kit doesnt use a vaccuum signal like the Aquamist unit.Whatever the case ill just map my GPO against the Manifold pressure map.

Issam, the Snow MAP-based controller *does* use a vacuum/boost signal. Then, there's the MAF version for cars with those sensors. In both cases the spray delivery corresponds to the engine load. However, since you've got standalone you'd be best to use your ECU to control everything. Why are you puzzled?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Issam, the Snow MAP-based controller *does* use a vacuum/boost signal. Then, there's the MAF version for cars with those sensors. In both cases the spray delivery corresponds to the engine load. However, since you've got standalone you'd be best to use your ECU to control everything. Why are you puzzled?

I thought i was using the Stage I kit and controlling the HSV with my GPO,hence not using a vaccuum signal.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
I thought i was using the Stage I kit and controlling the HSV with my GPO,hence not using a vaccuum signal.

Yes, that is my recommendation. You posted before about the Snow Stage I kit not having a means to deal with manifold pressure as Aquamist does. I'm saying that it is the Stage II kits (with MAP sensor-equipped controller or MAF-referencing controller) that incorporate engine load into the program. You don't need either, though, because controlling an HSV via standalone is a far more refined way to go. In this case the WI indirectuly uses your SEM's MAP sensor and advanced tuning capability.


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## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Wizard-of-OD)*

My understanding is that the aquamist systems are too expensive, as well as not powerful enough. (wont flow enough?) 
So I like the idea of the snow performance system with high pressure pump, along with the aquamist HSV, and a EFI that has a GPO that can be used for PWM.
But even here, I were not sure the HSV will flow enough for the really 
high hp systems ? So I did some math.
The HSV has an orifice valve of 1.4mm, and will flow about 500cc at 4bar according to aquamist information.
If we assume quadratic flow increase 140psi/9.5bar would give a flowrate of 500*sqrt(9.5^2/4^2) = 1180cc.
So for a system utilizing 20% of fuel mass injection of water, the HSV itself would be enough for 850hp. 
I guess I wouldnt operate with a nozzle that flow more than 600cc with the HSV to keep the pressure up at the nozzle. (or one could always use the 220psi snow performace pump?







) 
I'll see what I'll do, but I am gonna try some kind of water injection, driven by a GPO on my ecu! I just have to decide what and how








Would it be possible to use a fuel injector instead of a HSV? or will it not spray the water fine enough? or maybe corrode with the water over time?


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## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (MrBond)*

but , the aquamist HSV ? 
will it handle much pressure ? 
I'm not too sure it can handle switching 140psi efficiently ? 
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/sl/p....html
I have been searching the web for industrial high-speed solenoid valves that can support PWM. But they seem to be either to small or to slow... 
Anyone seen a valve that can be used ?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (MrBond)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrBond* »_but , the aquamist HSV ? 
will it handle much pressure ? 
I'm not too sure it can handle switching 140psi efficiently ? 
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/sl/p....html
I have been searching the web for industrial high-speed solenoid valves that can support PWM. But they seem to be either to small or to slow... 
Anyone seen a valve that can be used ? 

I've been looking myself, and I've found some valves, but all are around $150+ in single quantities...
Another method is varying voltage to the pump. The SnowPerformance kits do a crude open-loop version of this. Stay tuned for my own PC programmable controller (or hand programmable) with closed loop pressure control versus RPM and map / maf for less than the SnowPerformance kits.


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## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (Marty)*

I also came across this system that seem to be best value of them all: 
http://www.enginerunup.com/ 
I think I'll buy a two stage kit from them.
I can use a few GPO's to switch the solenoids for a fairly ok result... 
But I think I will try to do some testing with a large methanol fuel injector inline with the nozzles. I can do PWM on that injector, and it wont corrode with water if it handles pure methanol! 
The engine-runup page desribes the shurflo pump a little better than the other pages did, and it has this datasheet on it:
http://www.enginerunup.com/150 PSI Pump Data Sheet.pdf
It appears that the pump switches on when pressure out is down to 115psi, and then switches off when it reach 150psi. 
So it will switch on/off slowly with small amounts of flow, and on/off fast with much flow. I guess this is how the aquamist 2c "manifold" is supposed to give diagnosis on how much flow the pump provide, as the on/off frequency or dutycycle will be proposional to flow? 
But this might be shooting pigeons with cannonballs...
Some flow-testing with a inlinevalve and one or two nozzles should be enough to make a table (e.g. 40% dutycycle = 342cc/min , 50%dutycycle = 415cc/min ...->) 
And this would then it would be easy to provide the correct amount of water to rpm/boost. 
The controllers that change voltage to the pump sounds a bit fishy, I wouldnt do that.








Coolingmist are coming up with a controller soon that will be competitive in pricing, but I dont know how it will work. 
http://www.coolingmist.com/pro...1.jpg
Morten.


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## EngineRunup (Oct 6, 2005)

The way the Shurflo pumps are designed, they try to maintain the pressure the pump is set for, regardless of the voltage of the pump. This is what makes them such great pumps for campers, boats, and so on. That way, the pump will still give you full pressure, even when your battery starts do lose voltage.
This is why those companies that use a controller that varies the voltage to the pump in order to change the pressure are selling you ice in Alaska. A simple video of a pressure gauge showing a Shurflo pump, hooked up to a normal size injector, being controlled by their so called 'Progressive Controllers'. If their controller worked, then it would be easy to film a video of the controller varying the pressure to the injector. You won't see one, because they do a poor job, if at all. 
That being said, assuming their controller works as advertised, there would be too big of a delay in actual pressure to the injector, especially on a decreasing trend, since the pressure has to bleed out of the tubing, which takes a second or two, depending on injector size.
The only true Progressive setup is the Aquamist kit with the solenoid that reacts as quickly as a fuel injector. This way the injector is always at full pressure for an atomized mist, and the actual injector controls the output. Keep in mind I am a competitor to Aquamist, but I will always commend a quality product. My problem is with companies, and there is more than one, that sells a progressive controller knowing that it doesn't function like the customers think it will, but they keep on selling them because they sound good and they are profitable.
I am not the end all of knowledge of Alcohol/Water injection, but my knowledge is thorough. 
Another problem I have with one of the companies that has a 'Progressive Controller' is that they take a Shurflo pump that is designed for a maximum of 100 psi, then adjust the built in pressure switch all the way to 200 psi, selling it as a quality product. Just because my car goes 150, doesn't mean it will last forever at that speed. Turning the pump up that high will lead to premature failure, potentially causing extensive engine damage when it happens. Oh well, that's a whole other issue.
Thanks,
Greg Guster


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

tempting to use one of these with straight methanol. lol.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (EngineRunup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_The way the Shurflo pumps are designed, they try to maintain the pressure the pump is set for, regardless of the voltage of the pump. This is what makes them such great pumps for campers, boats, and so on. That way, the pump will still give you full pressure, even when your battery starts do lose voltage.
This is why those companies that use a controller that varies the voltage to the pump in order to change the pressure are selling you ice in Alaska. A simple video of a pressure gauge showing a Shurflo pump, hooked up to a normal size injector, being controlled by their so called 'Progressive Controllers'. If their controller worked, then it would be easy to film a video of the controller varying the pressure to the injector. You won't see one, because they do a poor job, if at all. 
That being said, assuming their controller works as advertised, there would be too big of a delay in actual pressure to the injector, especially on a decreasing trend, since the pressure has to bleed out of the tubing, which takes a second or two, depending on injector size.
The only true Progressive setup is the Aquamist kit with the solenoid that reacts as quickly as a fuel injector. This way the injector is always at full pressure for an atomized mist, and the actual injector controls the output. Keep in mind I am a competitor to Aquamist, but I will always commend a quality product. My problem is with companies, and there is more than one, that sells a progressive controller knowing that it doesn't function like the customers think it will, but they keep on selling them because they sound good and they are profitable.
I am not the end all of knowledge of Alcohol/Water injection, but my knowledge is thorough. 
Another problem I have with one of the companies that has a 'Progressive Controller' is that they take a Shurflo pump that is designed for a maximum of 100 psi, then adjust the built in pressure switch all the way to 200 psi, selling it as a quality product. Just because my car goes 150, doesn't mean it will last forever at that speed. Turning the pump up that high will lead to premature failure, potentially causing extensive engine damage when it happens. Oh well, that's a whole other issue.
Thanks,
Greg Guster

Ah, I see you're yet another company selling a simple WI kit that looks surprisingly similar to the "DIY" kit that I documented on here many years ago using a Shurflo pump.
Anyway, your understanding of the Shurflo pumps isn't correct. The way that they try to "maintain the pressure the pump is set for" is with a crude pressure switch that sits on the top of the pump that cuts off power to the pump above a certain pressure level, and turns it back on below a certain pressure level. There is some substantial hysterisis in this on/off cycle, such that with the 100 psi model it'll turn off around 100-105 psi and won't turn back on until the pressure drops to about 85 psi. This is NOT the way to regulate pressure carefully with such a pump.
Moreover, the pump output pressure is very dependent on the flowrate running through the pump. Just ask Shurflo for a pressure vs. flow curve if you don't believe me. You can easily set whatever pressure you like by just varying the restriction of a bypass network around the pump. Again I've done this myself and used it quite effectively in my own setup. 
Varying the voltage to the pump is another method as discussed, but it's not really as simple as "varying the voltage" directly. You pulse-width module large voltages to the pump which allow you to generate enough peak force (through large currents) to move the motor, but only long enough to move a small amount. Integrating this over time spins the pump slower and lowers the pressure vs. flow curve without the risk of stall from just applying a simple lower voltage. Clearly this is not a very reliable open-loop method as variances in pump losses, battery voltage, and downstream pressure drops will vary the pressure all over the place, if not just stall the pump. This is why I use my own digital closed-loop controller that actually measures the pump output pressure with a MAP sensor to lock the exact pump current modulation for my chosen output pressure. Integrating this with RPM and a MAP / MAF sensor with IAT trims gives you a fully programmable system with all of the reliability of the cheaper simple systems. It works VERY well.
If I ever decide to actually produce and sell my setup, it will obsolete all others, no worries about that.







You guys are just lucky that I'm busy enough with research and other issues that this bad boy is a one-off for the time being.
Marty (BS ME, MS ME, MS EE)


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast_a2_20v* »_tempting to use one of these with straight methanol. lol. 

Don't run methanol unless you're running lean and don't have an easy method of injecting other fuel. Methanol only has a fraction of the cooling abilities of water, and lacks the detonation supression chemistry that liquid water has when present during the combustion process.


----------



## EngineRunup (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (Marty)*

"Moreover, the pump output pressure is very dependent on the flowrate running through the pump. Just ask Shurflo for a pressure vs. flow curve if you don't believe me. You can easily set whatever pressure you like by just varying the restriction of a bypass network around the pump. Again I've done this myself and used it quite effectively in my own setup"
I completely agree with this, but it's not what we are talking about, unless you have some sort of return like a fuel system. Obviously, the less restriction, the more flow, and the less pressure.

"Anyway, your understanding of the Shurflo pumps isn't correct. The way that they try to "maintain the pressure the pump is set for" is with a crude pressure switch that sits on the top of the pump that cuts off power to the pump above a certain pressure level, and turns it back on below a certain pressure level. There is some substantial hysterisis in this on/off cycle, such that with the 100 psi model it'll turn off around 100-105 psi and won't turn back on until the pressure drops to about 85 psi. This is NOT the way to regulate pressure carefully with such a pump."
Once again I am not quite sure what your are replying to here. That is the way the pump works, I have a video if you want that will show that. I agree in that it could be done better, like a fuel system, keeping a constant pressure to the injector, and then pulse the injector.

"Varying the voltage to the pump is another method as discussed, but it's not really as simple as "varying the voltage" directly. You pulse-width module large voltages to the pump which allow you to generate enough peak force (through large currents) to move the motor, but only long enough to move a small amount. Integrating this over time spins the pump slower and lowers the pressure vs. flow curve without the risk of stall from just applying a simple lower voltage. Clearly this is not a very reliable open-loop method as variances in pump losses, battery voltage, and downstream pressure drops will vary the pressure all over the place, if not just stall the pump. This is why I use my own digital closed-loop controller that actually measures the pump output pressure with a MAP sensor to lock the exact pump current modulation for my chosen output pressure. Integrating this with RPM and a MAP / MAF sensor with IAT trims gives you a fully programmable system with all of the reliability of the cheaper simple systems. It works VERY well."
As I said in my original post, I will give credit where credit is due. If your controller that you sell actually measures the pump output, and then controls the pressure by directly reading the pressure at the injector (actually at the pump, but it would be the same at the injector), all integrated with an RPM, MAP, & MAF, then I am not talking about your controllers, as you have definitely done this correctly.

I don't even know which company you are. I was only replying to the post directly above my original post, that said,
"The controllers that change voltage to the pump sounds a bit fishy, I wouldnt do that."
Anyways, do you happen to have a video of your controller varying the pressure at the injector, because if it works like you say it does, then I am sure you know you are sitting on a gold mine. 
I did not intend to discredit your product, only the companies that have no idea how to manipulate pump pressure correctly, and more importantly, accurately. The gentleman who runs DO has absolutely no idea what he is talking about, but the company has a cool name, and his 'Progressive Controller' sound cool, so there are a lot of kids out there buying his product. I have had many of his customers come to me to fix the kit they bought from DO. Luckily, the people I have spoken with have not had any serious engine damage, but one had about a gallon of water/methanol in his intercooler, directly related to the lack of quality parts. 
I make no claim to be an innovator of Alcohol Injection, I just try to offer the best kit, with the highest quality parts, at the best price, I am sure you only want the same from your product. I criticize the ones out there that just want a quick buck, and I assure you, I am not one of those.
With all that said, I hope we (I) can stop this duel, as I said, it sounds like you have a great product.
Thanks,
Greg Guster


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (EngineRunup)*

Agreed, their said "Progressive Controller" is a hack job.
I'll see if I can't make you a video of the system bouncing back and forth between some different pressure setpoints through the PC interface in the next week or two.
No duel here, just trying to clear up any misconceptions. No real company plans here, I'm just a geek with more ideas than free time. If companies like yours or others are interested, perhaps I will just produce the controllers and PC interfaces and you could integrate them with your hardware?


----------



## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: (Marty)*

wouldnt adding a methanol fuel injector inline with pump and nozzle(s) result in a variable pressure between the nozzle(s) and fuel injector? 
that is basicly the way the aquamist system with highspeedvalve works, right? 
I understand flow wont be linear with dutycycle like with a fuelsystem, but even so, it will be fully controllable!


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## EngineRunup (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (Marty)*

Marty,
I tried to PM you, but it didn't seem to work. Your email is hidden, so I am hoping you can email me at [email protected] so we can discuss any ideas we may have. Look forward to hearing from you.
Greg


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (MrBond)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrBond* »_wouldnt adding a methanol fuel injector inline with pump and nozzle(s) result in a variable pressure between the nozzle(s) and fuel injector? 
that is basicly the way the aquamist system with highspeedvalve works, right? 
I understand flow wont be linear with dutycycle like with a fuelsystem, but even so, it will be fully controllable! 

At that point, why not just use the methanol injector rather than a nozzle? The issue is finding a valve that is high-speed, is compatible with pure water, can handle the high system pressures, and is cheap enough to make sense.


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## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
At that point, why not just use the methanol injector rather than a nozzle? The issue is finding a valve that is high-speed, is compatible with pure water, can handle the high system pressures, and is cheap enough to make sense.

I dont think a methanol injector would make a nice enough spraypattern ? 
I'll have to test a little different solutions... 
Interessting stuff http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (MrBond)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrBond* »_I dont think a methanol injector would make a nice enough spraypattern ? 
I'll have to test a little different solutions... 
Interessting stuff http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

The real point is that you don't want to be injecting methanol anyway.


----------



## scv8 (Apr 12, 2005)

*Re: (EngineRunup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_The way the Shurflo pumps are designed, they try to maintain the pressure the pump is set for, regardless of the voltage of the pump. This is what makes them such great pumps for campers, boats, and so on. That way, the pump will still give you full pressure, even when your battery starts do lose voltage.
This is why those companies that use a controller that varies the voltage to the pump in order to change the pressure are selling you ice in Alaska. A simple video of a pressure gauge showing a Shurflo pump, hooked up to a normal size injector, being controlled by their so called 'Progressive Controllers'. If their controller worked, then it would be easy to film a video of the controller varying the pressure to the injector. You won't see one, because they do a poor job, if at all. 
That being said, assuming their controller works as advertised, there would be too big of a delay in actual pressure to the injector, especially on a decreasing trend, since the pressure has to bleed out of the tubing, which takes a second or two, depending on injector size.
The only true Progressive setup is the Aquamist kit with the solenoid that reacts as quickly as a fuel injector. This way the injector is always at full pressure for an atomized mist, and the actual injector controls the output. Keep in mind I am a competitor to Aquamist, but I will always commend a quality product. My problem is with companies, and there is more than one, that sells a progressive controller knowing that it doesn't function like the customers think it will, but they keep on selling them because they sound good and they are profitable.
I am not the end all of knowledge of Alcohol/Water injection, but my knowledge is thorough. 
Another problem I have with one of the companies that has a 'Progressive Controller' is that they take a Shurflo pump that is designed for a maximum of 100 psi, then adjust the built in pressure switch all the way to 200 psi, selling it as a quality product. Just because my car goes 150, doesn't mean it will last forever at that speed. Turning the pump up that high will lead to premature failure, potentially causing extensive engine damage when it happens. Oh well, that's a whole other issue.
Thanks,
Greg Guster

Greg- are you referring to Snow?
Thanks


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## EngineRunup (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (scv8)*

I don't want to name names, but if you are interested in a controller, do your homework, ask the company questions, and avoid what was previously stated. You don't vary fuel pressure, why vary water pressure. There are at least 2 big names that use these, and they are nothing but gimmicks, which can cause damage in the long run. I do agree that being able to vary the injector output is an incredible concept, one concept that Aquamist has done very well with. There is a right way and a wrong way.
Greg


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (EngineRunup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_I don't want to name names, but if you are interested in a controller, do your homework, ask the company questions, and avoid what was previously stated. You don't vary fuel pressure, why vary water pressure. There are at least 2 big names that use these, and they are nothing but gimmicks, which can cause damage in the long run. I do agree that being able to vary the injector output is an incredible concept, one concept that Aquamist has done very well with. There is a right way and a wrong way.
Greg

Assuming you're using a high-speed solenoid valve to pulse between the nozzle and the constant pressure source pump, that's exactly what you're doing: varying the pressure. The line and nozzle after the solenoid act as a low-pass filter for the pressure pulses. Unless you're actually pulsing an injector, it all reduces to varying pressure to control the flow.


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## EngineRunup (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
Assuming you're using a high-speed solenoid valve to pulse between the nozzle and the constant pressure source pump, that's exactly what you're doing: varying the pressure. The line and nozzle after the solenoid act as a low-pass filter for the pressure pulses. Unless you're actually pulsing an injector, it all reduces to varying pressure to control the flow.

I agree. The proper way to do it is treat it just like a fuel system. In a fuel system, there isn't a solenoid two feet from the injector that pulses at incredible rates, it is directly connected to the injector, so there is no tubing to expand and store pressure. Water can expand, even in a solid brass housing, but with a distance so short, such as 1/4", the injector will instantly see pump pressure, at whatever rate it is pulsed at. When the solenoid is closed during the pulsing, there will instantly be zero pressure. I see what you are saying, but the main difference is that the injector either sees full pump pressure, or no pressure at all. This way, when the injector sprays, it is completely atomized as much as possible. With varying the voltage of the pump to control pump pressure, the injector will see pressures as low as 30 psi (pump pressure of 40 psi minus engine boost pressure), which is hardly adequate. If 30, or even 40 40 were sufficient, then you would see kits that have a 40 psi pump, since the are much cheaper. I am not saying that I have developed the perfect setup, although I have been and continue to try and have a complete setup that does it correctly. I will not compromise and make a product just because I know it will sell, if it is not the correct, or even worse, a poor design.
Whew, that was a lot. Keep in mind that most companies with a Progressive Controller also sell kits that function off of boost switches, just like mine. I am not knocking any of those products (unless they use a checkvalve and no solenoid), because most of them have a quality product. I just feel that they are misrepresenting what there controller actually does, otherwise you would see a video of the controller actually controlling. It would be very easy to produce that video, but none exist, and for a reason.
With all that said, I love to discuss new ideas along with current ideas, so please don't take my posts as too hostile, I am just trying to get all of the facts out there so the consumer can make an informed decision. Just because I don't recommend their controllers, doesn't mean their normal kits aren't worth anything.
Thanks,
Greg


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (EngineRunup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_ You don't vary fuel pressure, why vary water pressure. 

Actually, VW enthusiasts are about the only people who DON'T vary fuel pressure, and to a point, fuel pressure is varied anyways, 1 psi increase for every lb of boost iirc. People have been doing it since before electronic fuel injection was around and started doing it to fuel injection when it was invented too....
Nobody else has problems with it, I don't know why people here are so convinced it doesn't work....plenty of really fast cars use it.


_Modified by mechsoldier at 8:46 AM 10-9-2005_


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## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
The real point is that you don't want to be injecting methanol anyway.

I dont think you understand my point! 
You said yourself, high speed valves that can do PWM are expensive!
And normal fuel injectors wont handle water, they will corrode! 
A meth fuel injector handle meth without corroding, so it will def handle water, as meth is more corrosive than water.
And a meth fuel injector is indeed a high speed valve able to do PWM, and dont cost a fortune! 
-> so there is my point! 
I want to run pure water on my setup! no meth...


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (MrBond)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrBond* »_I dont think you understand my point! 
You said yourself, high speed valves that can do PWM are expensive!
And normal fuel injectors wont handle water, they will corrode! 
A meth fuel injector handle meth without corroding, so it will def handle water, as meth is more corrosive than water.
And a meth fuel injector is indeed a high speed valve able to do PWM, and dont cost a fortune! 
-> so there is my point! 
I want to run pure water on my setup! no meth... 

I hate to burst your bubble, but meth won't rust an injector, and water will.


----------



## MrBond (Jan 5, 2004)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
I hate to burst your bubble, but meth won't rust an injector, and water will.

chemistry isnt my strongest topic









I seem to remember that I read methanol was extremely corrosive, and need different fuelpumps and injectors than gasoline. 
I also read something about adding 1% corrosion inhibiting oil in a mix of 50/50 meth/water ? would this mean we could use a normal fuel injector?


----------



## EngineRunup (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (mechsoldier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mechsoldier* »_
Actually, VW enthusiasts are about the only people who DON'T vary fuel pressure, and to a point, fuel pressure is varied anyways, 1 psi increase for every lb of boost iirc. People have been doing it since before electronic fuel injection was around and started doing it to fuel injection when it was invented too....
Nobody else has problems with it, I don't know why people here are so convinced it doesn't work....plenty of really fast cars use it.

_Modified by mechsoldier at 8:46 AM 10-9-2005_


To my knowledge, when someone increases fuel pressure to compensate for boost, the fuel pressure stays at the higher pressure all the time. I know many people who run a higher voltage to a fuel pump to get more pressure out of it, but they don't actually continually vary the voltage, they only vary it to the higher voltage, and then that is where it always is. Also, increasing pressure isn't an issue compared to decreasing pressure, when you are talking about atomization. Increasing the pressure will only help, but what the thread has been about is decreasing the pressure. 
For the next post after yours, the main problem with injectors corroding is from the water. You are right in if it were the methanol, then you could just by meth injectors, but it is the water, and I have yet to find a water injector (other than Aquamist), but I am working on that.
Thanks,
Greg


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (EngineRunup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_
To my knowledge, when someone increases fuel pressure to compensate for boost, the fuel pressure stays at the higher pressure all the time. 

No there's such thing as a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, which instead of increasing fuel 1psi for every psi for boost it'll raise it a different amount that you dial in, say 10 psi for every 1 psi of boost.

_Quote »_I know many people who run a higher voltage to a fuel pump to get more pressure out of it, but they don't actually continually vary the voltage, they only vary it to the higher voltage, and then that is where it always is. 

I think you're misunderstanding how fuel systems work, because your pump could putout 200 psi, and as long as you had a big enough return line to the tank, you'd STILL only have the normal base fuel pressure because it's the fuel pressure regulator that controls that, not the pump.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (EngineRunup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_I agree. The proper way to do it is treat it just like a fuel system. In a fuel system, there isn't a solenoid two feet from the injector that pulses at incredible rates, it is directly connected to the injector, so there is no tubing to expand and store pressure.

Au contraire, mon frère... There are plenty of effective fuel injection systems out there that operate differently than you described yet are still effective. Have you ever heard of *Bosch CIS*, for instance? It mechanically varies pressure as the only means to control fuel delivery. As for EFI, some operate with a solenoid positioned remotely and with tubes used to deliver the fuel to each cylinder. For example, in 1992, General Motors introduced a very unique fuel injection system on its 4.3-liter Vortec V6 truck engine. Dubbed *Central Port Injection*, or CPI, the system utilizes one main injector that pressurizes six plastic tubes house in the intake manifold. Each tube terminates in a spring-loaded poppet valve that supplies fuel to its corresponding cylinder.
This system increased horsepower and torque by a factor of 20% over TBI. A 30 % increase in horsepower, torque and fuel economy was seen over carburetion. If this method is good enough for an OEM application, I say it it has merit for doing water/alcohol injection. You're going to argue otherwise?

_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_To my knowledge, when someone increases fuel pressure to compensate for boost, the fuel pressure stays at the higher pressure all the time. I know many people who run a higher voltage to a fuel pump to get more pressure out of it, but they don't actually continually vary the voltage, they only vary it to the higher voltage, and then that is where it always is.

Some fuel systems increase fuel pressure linearly with fixed rate fprs to compensate for manifold pressures (1:1 ratio). Others do it with rising rate fprs (e.g. "FMU" set at 2:1, etc.) Still others continuously vary pump input voltage to compensate for manifold pressure changes. This is most commonly done with returnless fuel systems, but also with aftermarket systems like the Kenne Bell "Boost-A-Pump".

_Quote, originally posted by *EngineRunup* »_Also, increasing pressure isn't an issue compared to decreasing pressure, when you are talking about atomization. Increasing the pressure will only help, but what the thread has been about is decreasing the pressure.

It obviously depends on the nozzle design. They're not all the same. some may atomize properly at low pressure. Most WI vendors' nozzles do not. This seems to be a make it/break it issue.
In general, though, if we're comparing existing products with each other who cares how the job gets done? In hotrodding, *technology considered outside of results is 100% irrelevant. All that matters is the final outcome. Does it provide a good value or not? That is the only question. All else is moot.* If a dynoplot shows a smooth power/torque increase from beginning to end, then that system is doing its job. Now... if we're talking about engineering an improved system, then it's a different matter entirely.
Cheers,


----------



## 97 Golf SC (Nov 14, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Hey Scott or anyone that is already running water injection . . . what mix of water and methanol will not freeze during the winter months? And more exact if I run a 50/50 mix of methanol and water should I be worried about any of my lines freezing during the winter? Thanks


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (97 Golf SC)*

A 50/50 mix of solution will definitely not freeze on you. Windshield washer fluid is usually about a 70/30 mix of water/alky. Then, there's the cold winter formulations which are more like 60/40. You'll be fine.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*aquamist*

I want to give a prop out to the Aquamist stuff. I have run one of their rigs now for over 5years without troubles!
Okay, I did kill one pump probally by freezing it... Replaced by my dealer under warranty.
One thing the Aquamist has that I have YET to find ANYWHERE ELSE, is diagnostics. If its detects a blocked jet, it tells you. A frozen pipe, a BROKEN pipe, an excessive leak... Etcetra. It addresses all the concerns I had with running water injection.
I am hoping to develope a diagnostics setup for the MegaSquirt controller. It would have a LOT more capability than even the Aquamist systems and could even be hooked up to one of their feedback waterpumps.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: aquamist (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_IOne thing the Aquamist has that I have YET to find ANYWHERE ELSE, is diagnostics. If its detects a blocked jet, it tells you.

You should take a look at the new SafeInjection system from Snow Performance. It can be used to safely reduce boost to safe levels if the spray flow falls below a critical level. This makes it practical and safe to rely on the water injection system without worries as can be done with true racing fuel. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif By comparison, the Aquamist is less capable in that it can only tell you when there's a problem. It doesn't actually do anything about the problem.


----------



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: aquamist ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You should take a look at the new SafeInjection system from Snow Performance. It can be used to safely reduce boost to safe levels if the spray flow falls below a critical level. This makes it practical and safe to rely on the water injection system without worries as can be done with true racing fuel. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif By comparison, the Aquamist is less capable in that it can only tell you when there's a problem. It doesn't actually do anything about the problem.









wow, that looks very promising. I am a little curious as to how the solenoid that hooks up to it works.
So has anyone dyno tuned for water injection here? I'm curious if there is a good way to do it or do you just try to get somewhere where timing isn't pulled and the engine isn't bogging?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: aquamist (GTTechnics)*

Well, the way I've done it is get the car running perfect without it. Then, incrementally increase boost (or, in my case nitrous oxide) until mild detonation occurs. I dial in a bit more water/alky spray until the detonation disappears and then repeat the process. It takes a while, but you can dial in a nice street tune this way. After all that's done it's time to head to the dyno to tweak the ignition timing and air/fuel ratios.


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: aquamist ([email protected])*

If you set it uo to DO something about it, the Aquamist can take care of it. Remember that fault light? It is easily set up to send a signal into a standalone. When mine comes on, it will NOT switch onto the aggressive tune maps for water injection.
My main maps are the "safe" ones. When the ecu sees the MF-2 is injecting, it swaps maps until either it stops or if it sees a fault. Maps include more aggressive boost, fueling, AND timing. My setup also turns of EGO correction and ignores the sudded IAT drop for the duration of the injection.
But then ANY WI system can do this if you actualy understand how to set it up and have a capable engie managment. Well at least any system that has fault diagnostics. And you could set this up for a "dumb" interface like a simple solenoid. But I prefer haing it interfaced with my engine managment and the additional safety checks.
Having said that, your system there definatly looks interesting. And I think it addresses some concerns that the simpler systems have ignored until now. A few questions that I didn't get answered by the website:
1) Does this maintain a constant system pressure? Or is it an on/off? If it maintains the pressure, can you adjust it?
2) HOW does it see a fault and what does it consider faults? 
3) Can it tell if it has a partialy clogged injector nozzle?


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (97 Golf SC)*

Oh, a warrning and recomendation. I have found the windsheild washer stuff KILLS o2 sensors. I recomend NOT running a wideband in the winter if using these mixes. It will also clog nozzles up quicker. EVERY winter I have had to change my o2 sensor at least once. This was a normal cheapie single wire Bosch though so cost was not a big deal. But I definatly will not use this mix with my LM-1...
So this winter I either run full alky, or no wideband. And I have also used my rig through at least 5 winters, with a couple of them being super nasty upstate NY ones.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Fortunatly you have an LM-1.... So the new sensor wouldn't break the bank as bad as the damn NTK ones will. You MAY not see this problem as bad with heated sensors and wideband heated sensors (ALL widebands are...). But my thought is your likely going to be safer running a straight meth or alky mix than the "poor man's blue alky" mix.








If nobody here knows, ask on the Aquamist forum. I have seen these thoughts discussed there before.


_Modified by T3Bunny at 12:35 AM 10-17-2005_


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: aquamist (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_A few questions that I didn't get answered by the website:
1) Does this maintain a constant system pressure? Or is it an on/off? If it maintains the pressure, can you adjust it?

Pump output pressure is changed by the Variable Controller (which adjusts the voltage sent to the pump). This is how the injection volume is "mapped" according to engine load.

_Quote »_2) HOW does it see a fault and what does it consider faults?

There is a small turbine inside the Safe Injection module. It spins and creates a voltage of its own. When that voltage drops below a certain critical level the brain inside the module steps in and lights up an LED. It will also take corrective measures (e.g. purge boost directly or signal the ECU to do it) if you wire it up to do so.

_Quote »_3) Can it tell if it has a partialy clogged injector nozzle?

It is sensitive enough to trip when the flow falls below a pre-set threshold. The reduction in flow can be due to a clogged nozzle, failing pump, kinked line, or anything else that impedes spray delivery. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: aquamist ([email protected])*

How do you modify the shurflow pump to make it work? Its specifically designed so that it retains a constant pressure at all operation voltages...


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: aquamist (T3Bunny)*

I don't alter the pumps. That's Snow Performance's job. (-assuming that they're performing any such mods in the first place.) Btw, the Shurflo pumps are set up to produce a constant pressure. However, that doesn't mean that the flow remains constant. Remember that flow and pressure are inversely related.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: aquamist (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_How do you modify the shurflow pump to make it work? Its specifically designed so that it retains a constant pressure at all operation voltages...

This is not true. Shurflo pumps simply have a pressure-driven relay on the top of the pump that turn off pump power if the output pressure exceeds the pump rating (100 psi, 150 psi, etc. depending on what model you purchased). It's actually quite crude and innacurate, and has a large hysterisis of about 15 psi (that is, it doesn't turn back on until pressure drops below 85 psi on the 100 psi unit, for example). Since this operation is purely mechanical, it surely is independent of pump voltage, but the pump pressure is equally dependent on the flowrate through the load.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Btw, the Shurflo pumps are set up to produce a constant pressure. However, that doesn't mean that the flow remains constant. Remember that flow and pressure are inversely related.

This is also not true. At a given voltage, pump output pressure and flowrate are coupled in a way that depends on the pump hardware. For any given model there is a set pressure versus flow curve for a given operating voltage. That is, if you're operating at 12 V, and your output pressure is 50 psi, then the flowrate must be the amount specified by this curve, and this flowrate will not change (unless you change either the pressure or the pump voltage). The flowrate through the pump is set for a given pressure and operating voltage, period. The flow that you can vary however is the flow through the nozzle, which does not have to be the same as that through the pump if there is some sort of bypass circuit.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: aquamist (Marty)*

That makes a lot more sense. Then in theroy it would be realy easy to bypass that relay and change the on/off pressure with an external pressure switch. Like the one my Aquamist uses!
Speaking of Aquamist, I FINALLY got mine to "play nice" with the MegaSquirt ECU tonight! I was having trouble getting a map signal out of the MS to use with the MF-2.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: aquamist (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_At a given voltage, pump output pressure and flowrate are coupled in a way that depends on the pump hardware. For any given model there is a set pressure versus flow curve for a given operating voltage.

That's more or less what I actually meant.







Thanks for the clarification. Sometimes it takes an articulate engineer to make this stuff plain.







When a Shurflo pump is used normally (i.e. pumping water in an RV) there is no controller making the pump work harder or relax depending some external variable. So, pressure and flow remain fixed. The changes to flow that I was referring to occur when the WI controller varies the voltage. Anyway, it's all good. Thanks again, Marty. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## scv8 (Apr 12, 2005)

*Water/alchy injection*

Hey guys- Interesting discussion! I'm using the Snow Stage 2 MAF and am very happy with it. My application is an SVT F-150 at 400rwhp/500rwtq and I'm using straight ethanol. It is injected before the blower and I/C on this setup.
How are you guys tuning your A/F ratios on the injection? I started with 12.1 w/out the alchy and am now at around 11.2. I'm sort of hesitant to lean it out.
Any truth to alcohol having a different stoic than gas? Maybe I'm thinking too hard but this would seem to complicate tuning the mixture.
Thanks for any input http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (scv8)*

Thats a VERY INTERESTING question! I would like to know the answer to that one....
I THINK it would not affect your airfuel ratio, cept for the fact your adding more fuel to the mix. Your wideband (assuming you have one) should still read correctly. I think the change would be what the ifeal stoic for it is. But this wouldn't change as your only injecting this additional fuel under boost and not at cruise.
You have brought up a very cool point! Anyone want to elaborate on this?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (scv8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scv8* »_Hey guys- Interesting discussion! I'm using the Snow Stage 2 MAF and am very happy with it. My application is an SVT F-150 at 400rwhp/500rwtq and I'm using straight ethanol. It is injected before the blower and I/C on this setup.
How are you guys tuning your A/F ratios on the injection? I started with 12.1 w/out the alchy and am now at around 11.2. I'm sort of hesitant to lean it out.
Any truth to alcohol having a different stoic than gas? Maybe I'm thinking too hard but this would seem to complicate tuning the mixture.
Thanks for any input http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'd switch to injecting pure water (you'll likely have to reduce the flow a bit), and inject AFTER both the blower and intercooler. You're putting unnecessary stress on the blower's compressor while also reducing intercooler efficiency.


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## scv8 (Apr 12, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Marty)*

Thanks for the replies guys.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to inject after the I/C and Eaton on the Lightning. The I/C sits on the heads and the blower sits on the I/C. Because of this straight h20 is not as effective. Straight alcohol though allows considerably more spark advance in this application. If it's effective in mine I can only imagine how effective it is in a VW application!


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (scv8)*

If ethanol (stoich AFR of ~9) is mixed with gasoline (stoich AFR of 14.7) the resulting gas has a lower stoich AFR than 'pure' gasoline. As the fuel injection is tuned to mix a certain amount of fuel for a given amount of air, the resulting mixture would be leaner when using a fuel with lower stoich AFR. 
This can be calculated: 
*sAFR = {(%Additive * sAFRadditive) + (90%gas * sAFRgas)} /100* 
where: 
sAFR is resulting stoich AFR 
%Additive is amount in % of mass of additive (ethanol) mixed in 
sAFRadditive is stoich AFR of additive (9 for ethanol) 
sAFRgas is stoich AFR of base gasoline (14.7) 
For a 10% mixture of ethanol to gasoline by mass the resulting stoich AFR is 14.13 
So, for an engine that's tuned to certain AFR at a certain load and RPM on straight gas, the resulting (gasoline equivalent) AFR when running the mixture can be calculated as: 
new AFR = tuned gas AFR * (gasoline stoich ratio) / blend stoich ratio 
An engine tuned to 12.5 gas AFR will run at the equivalent of 13 gas AFR with a 10% ethanol blend.
Remember, though, that when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7. O2 sensors (incl. widebands) don’t measure AFR, but Lambda. Lambda is defined as actual AFR/stoich AFR. It's a ratio. In closed loop part throttle the engine is just running at Lambda 1.0, regardless of fuel. The same would be true for other Lambda values when running closed loop at WOT using a wideband. The engine would run at the tuned Lambda and everything would be fine. Open loop systems would need to be retuned for alcohol blends though.
Now... with that said WAI is implemented slightly differently then this example. Water doesn't burn at *all*. So, the effective octane rating is infinitely high. I'm not exactly sure how to account for that in the calculations. Perhaps Marty has something to share on this point. Also, water vapor is inert relative to oxygen. This means 
that pure water vapor would read as Lambda 1.0. However, since water expands by 1700x by volume when it boils (at 100degC) the resulting water vapor in the exhaust gas acts as a dilutant and will cause the meter to read leaner in a rich condition and richer in 
a lean condition. By how much is difficult to say and depends on the 
exhaust temperature. 
Are you confused, yet?







I've found that tuning WAI is easiest with the fundamental theories understood while using a trial and error approach to guide the process. Use the calculations as a baseline and then log your IAT, EGT, and knock activity to make tuning decisions.
As a starting point, using the injector duty cycle near WOT, first figure out how much total gasoline your all your injectors are supplying (cc/min). Then, you must know the flow of alcohol being injected (cc/min). Start by decreasing the total fueling from your injectors by one half the amount of alcohol being injected, since alcohol has about 1/2 the energy (BTUs) of gasoline. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## scv8 (Apr 12, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (scv8)*

Scott- Thank you for the awesome reply! I'm still digesting this stuff. 
I really appreciate your time and answer!!


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: Water/alchy injection ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Remember, though, that when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7. O2 sensors (incl. widebands) don’t measure AFR, but Lambda. 

With all those words it sounds like you know what you are talking about but since I think you are incorrect [or not exactly] I will add my two cents worth. 
O2 sensors measure just that, O2, aka oxygen. It measures the amount of oxygen from one side of the sensor to the other side of the sensor. One side is in the exhaust tract and the other side is the outside of the tract. The difference between the two gives you a voltage. On a typical sensor it will make about .5v for a lambda fuel mixture. Since most engines are tuned to lambda, they work perfectly. Since there are engines that are lean burning a typical O2 sensor will not work. Now that is where the wideband comes in. It will measure the amount of oxygen and will change its voltage with the amount of oxygen but much more linear. So if you want the engine to run at 15-17 to 1 mixture it is much easier for the ECU to see that with a wide band. 
A typical O2 sensor voltage runs from .2-.8v and changes since the ECU is making fine adjustment to that mixture [rich,lean,rich,lean...]. A wideband O2 sensor would not change that much and stay about 1v [I could be wrong with that number]. As the number goes one direction the fuel mixture would be adjusted. So with fine adjustments from the ECU the sensor does not change the base voltage much.So if you wanted to run a constant 16-1 mixture all you would have to do is to program the ECU to run at the voltage for a 16-1 mixture. A normal O2 sensor could not do this.
So does a wide band O2 sensor measure lambda? Not exactly, since it is capable of measureing a much wider air fuel ratio or at least much much better than the typical O2 sensor.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Butcher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Butcher* »_
With all those words it sounds like you know what you are talking about but since I think you are incorrect [or not exactly] I will add my two cents worth. 

Butcher your correct! Sorry Scott but your wrong here. An engine will run at whatever you TELL it to run in closed loop. If you have a programable ECU (and ALL are programable in one way or another, either from the factory or from your laptop)n it will do what you tell it to do, least we HOPE so! 
Now the engine may not WANT to run at said setting, but thats a whole nother story. 
Admit when your wrong on something and stop trying to outpost/outtalk others here. Your making yourself look foolish doing that. The idea here it to learn and further your knowledge.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (T3Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Admit when your wrong on something and stop trying to outpost/outtalk others here. Your making yourself look foolish doing that. The idea here it to learn and further your knowledge. 

Hey, I'm all about furthering my knowledge as well as helping others. So, when I'm confident about a point I'm not going to be shy about sharing my views on it. Scv8 asked a tough question and I answered it directly. I tried to be as succinct as possible while not ignoring important technical details:

_Quote, originally posted by *scv8* »_How are you guys tuning your A/F ratios on the injection? Any truth to alcohol having a different stoic than gas? Maybe I'm thinking too hard but this would seem to complicate tuning the mixture.

If you think my answer is wrong, that's totally fine. Say so and then be open to my response. That's called an open discussion. So, where's the problem?









_Quote, originally posted by *Butcher* »_A wideband O2 sensor would not change that much and stay about 1v [I could be wrong with that number].

Wideband voltages range between 0 - 5v. Their sampling resolution is much higher than a narrow band which ranges betwen 0 - 1v.

_Quote, originally posted by *Butcher* »_So if you wanted to run a constant 16-1 mixture all you would have to do is to program the ECU to run at the voltage for a 16-1 mixture. A normal O2 sensor could not do this.

Right, this is what all oxygen sensors do. -both narrow and wideband. The difference is that the narrowband is only accurate at or in close proximity to stoich whereas a wideband is accurate even when the a/f ratio is far away from stoich. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

_Quote, originally posted by *Butcher* »_So does a wide band O2 sensor measure lambda? Not exactly, since it is capable of measureing a much wider air fuel ratio or at least much much better than the typical O2 sensor.


All oxygen sensors measure lambda values. It is up to the ECU to interpret the signal and make corrections (when in closed loop mode) to put the a/f ratio where it is supposed to be (according to the ECU's programming).

_Quote, originally posted by *T3Bunny* »_Sorry Scott but your wrong here. An engine will run at whatever you TELL it to run in closed loop.

Um yeah, I understand how this works.







I reinforced that point when I said _"In closed loop part throttle the engine is just running at Lambda 1.0, regardless of fuel."_ If, for example, you run a gasoline/alcohol blend in your engine you'll see that fuel economy declines. Why is that? Alcohol has a lower stoich ratio than gasoline (i.e. it needs more fuel and less air than gas because it carries its own oxygen molecules). The O2 sensor sends a signal to the ECU telling it to inject more fuel. This moves the lean mixture back to the programmed lambda ratio. The actual air/fuel ratio is thusly richened. I demonstrated that mathematically and stated it explicitly here:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_For a 10% mixture of ethanol to gasoline by mass the resulting stoich AFR is 14.13... when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7.
 
The O2 sensor measures lambda and tells the ECU to adjust the air/fuel ratio. -not the reverse. Disagree with me? (shrug) Express yourself. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## isavwredgli (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (2kjettaguy)*

Good picture but, where did you hook your boost gauge?
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## isavwredgli (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Water Injection : Who is using What? (2kjettaguy)*

Good picture but, where did you hook your boost gauge?
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_I ran a 2c on my Neuspeed Charger setup. It worked well, but I didn't have any tuning capabilities with that setup. I was only assuming it needed the colder charge temps. 
Definitely get the 2c. It includes the "high speed valve" which modulates the spray based on injector duty cycle. Also be sure to get the check valve. 
Leave your lines long so that you don't pull them out of the push-in fittings with heavy motor movement. 
Also, mount everything off the motor. I made a really sweet mount to install it all on the motor and burned up multiple solenoids. The switches and solenoids cannot take engine vibration. 
If you decide on Aquamist, get it from Brad at http://www.kcsaab.com/. Brad was more than generous in helping me with my setup. When I did the setup I was a total no0b, so he put up with alot









Evan 
Here's a few pics of my old setup. Again, I do not reccomend mounting the solenoid on the motor. Read their installation instructions carefully to see what you can and can't mount on the motor. 








http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi1.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi2.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi3.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi4.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi5.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi6.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi7.jpg
http://www.ratrix.com/evan/pics/mycar/wi8.jpg


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Butcher)*









It's clear from the graph that this sensor is meant to sense lambda, as you can tell more than HALF of it's operating voltage is meant to sense lambda 1, the rest of the two tenths of a volt span 6 AF ratio points....








I disagree that the wideband O2 measures lambda, I mean, it does because lambda rating is a form of AFR, but it's obviously not meant to be accurate only at Lambda. Other than the fact that lambda is just about in the middle of it's operating range, that's a given because the leanest of engines run at around 17:1 and the riches run at around 10.... so that's understandable. It's obviously not calibrated to be specific only at lambda though because a linear relationship between voltage and a/f ratio....


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (mechsoldier)*

Your first graph demonstrates perfectly that narrowband O2 sensors are only accurate at or around stoich. Widebands also report lambda values which are accurate even when the air/fuel ratio is far away from stoich. Btw, I should have stated from the beginning that O2 sensors *report* lambda values. They actually *measure* air/fuel ratios as Butcher corrected before. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Then, they feed the ECU with a lambda number. At stoich lambda = 1.0 regardless of the fuel used.
The ECU adjusts mixture to reach a pre-programmed lambda value when in closed loop. For this reason closed loop operation with alternate fuels is workable (although air/fuel ratio is changed). Open loop fuel tables must be reworked, however.







Since water/alcohol injection is only used in open loop mode there is no correction for air/fuel ratio. So, Scv8's original concern about open loop tuning is valid. -as was my explanation about it, I'd say.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Water/alchy injection ([email protected])*

If someone will find me a reasonably priced capable high-speed valve or other precise flow control device, I will build the WI controller to end all controllers dammit. Don't make me design and fabricate the valve too.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Marty)*

How about the HSV from Aquamist? If your serious, PM me. I may be able to offer some help.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (T3Bunny)*

I have found some very high speed valves (hundres of microsecond turn-on times) but they're still in the $100-200 range. I don't mind the cost for my own setup, but most people will be too cheap and not understand the difference for which you're paying over a voltage-controlled or non-adjustable kit.


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## T3Bunny (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Marty)*

$100 for the valve seems good... but then we know the merit of a proper system also. What most people don't seem to realize is just how usefull WI can be. I had a Fiat running 12.5 to 1 compression on a STOCK Bosch L-Jet fuel injection system. For some ODD reason it had detonation issues at light throttle high load application. 








Anyways thats how I discovered WI. This was BEFORE it was commonly avalible back in the days where most people were still using windsheild washer pumps. The only real system was Aquamist. I got a system 1s, but found that the very fine control I needed was not there. It would bog or not inject enough. And no diagnostics ment it was ALWAYS clogging or needing me under hood to tweak and clean it. Then I would have to fiddle with the jets in the seasonal change.
Within three months I bought the upgrade to make it a system 2s. Never had another issue!
NA cars running WI need MUCH finer control, and are actualy very rare. A turbo just needs it dumped in. BUT with the finer control you can squeak a LOT more power out of the turbo setup than just dumping.
More power http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (T3Bunny)*

alright so theres alot of Tech jargon on here, but personally I'm not looking to design my own 1 off kit. I'm looking at using whats already on the market to make something that will work best for me.
Ok heres what I got, a 2.0 ABA built bottom end mated with a AEB head, along with a T3/T4 turbo and plan on seeing peak boost of 30psi. Using megasquirt for my ignition. 
The views seem to be that aquamist is good but pricey, snow performance is good but not as refined? I think I saw in a post where it was said The snow kit plus the aquamist HSV would be a really good combo? 
Your guys input would be apreciated.


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## Ol_Dubber (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Marty)*

Hey Marty, you still working on something? Jus' wonderin'....


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_I have found some very high speed valves (hundres of microsecond turn-on times) but they're still in the $100-200 range. I don't mind the cost for my own setup, but most people will be too cheap and not understand the difference for which you're paying over a voltage-controlled or non-adjustable kit.


Use an ~old fuel inj. for testing.
-Jeff


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_Use an ~old fuel inj. for testing.
-Jeff

Yes. This is what i use for my methanol setup. 
RC 310cc


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## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: Water/alchy injection (AAdontworkx3)*

bump 2 save info, sorry for the return from the grave...


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