# Roll Cages



## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

Lets see what you guys have built!!! Doesnt matter if its a vw or not http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Roll Cages (Flavourless)*


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## bopper (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: Roll Cages (ftwelder)*

a cage i changed
before
















after


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

nice door bars, all the way to the skin..well done


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## TurnFour (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

This is a good spot to offer my question. I worked in a fab shop and have built many cages for the off-road world. I am preparing to build a rally car, and I wanted to talk about how you can get a complete weld around a tube joint in an extremely tight spot, such as against the roof or on the backside of a footwell. I've never really has to deal with this problem working with Jeeps and such. A flexible nozzle and a good feel for what's going on? Is it possible at all to see what you are doing in that case? A mirror, perhaps? I'm welding with a ESAB 230. Thanks!


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## jimbbski (Jun 3, 2007)

When installing a cage inside a car most times you drill holes in the floor where the down tubes for the main hoop can drop into. This gives you the extra room to weld the top part of the tubes. Once that's done you lift the cage up and weld the rest of the cage.


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## California Jay (Sep 1, 2004)

If you catch some builds from Prodrive or similar factory backed teams/companies - you will find after the chassis is stripped, the roof is skinned and the windows come out to weld in the tight joints.


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## TurnFour (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: (California Jay)*

Well the glass will definitely be coming out of the shell during the cage build. I wanted to avoid cutting any panels off. Who is prodrive? This is an Audi 4KQ


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## bopper (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: (TurnFour)*

if their a spot that i can't get too or can't drop the cage too weld.. i have a special tool for that. its a 3 1/2" hole saw.. you have to remember, most of the hard spots to weld are the most important........ also someones life is more important than a body shop bill.. 
you reputation goes down the tubes if someone dies because of your welding


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: (bopper)*

not mine, but good for a laugh
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...2.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...1.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...3.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...2.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...1.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...0.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...9.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...8.JPG 
http://www.p-c-f.net/thomas_hp...7.JPG


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## dirtycountry (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*

^^^^ i was expecting one of those hack job cages you see at the track sometimes that look like a blind guy that just learned to mig did the welding.
that white polo is sick. form over function i know, but the attention to detail is excellent.


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## WackyWabbitRacer (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (dirtycountry)*









Cheers, WWR.


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## calyp_so_fine (Jun 9, 2008)

which bending machine do you guys use?


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: (calyp_so_fine)*

Holy **** that cage is insane.
I'm going to be building a cage for my next project, thinking about making my own builder. I got the plans for the JD Squared bender. Probably going to go and buy the materials for it next week.


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## California Jay (Sep 1, 2004)

*Re: (calyp_so_fine)*

Pro-Tools #105 w/ pneumatic assist.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

WWR is the real deal.


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## vdub11 (Apr 21, 2002)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

i need to find a fab shop that can do a 6 point for me. i live in pittsburgh, pa. anybody know a good reputable shop?


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

I think there is a regular poster in your area if my memory serves me.


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## rockin16v (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

avec la modded-"kinker"








http://www.thesamba.com/vw/for...38862


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (rockin16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rockin16v* »_avec la modded-"kinker"








http://www.thesamba.com/vw/for...38862 

le garbage.
tube distortion and crush are NOT acceptable in cages...period.


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (California Jay)*


_Quote, originally posted by *California Jay* »_Pro-Tools #105 w/ pneumatic assist.









nice machine!!
we use jd squared hydraulic bender at work


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

started this one this afternoon...
































hardly finished, but the main hoop is bent and fit, harness bar is welded out. will do some more tommorrow


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*FV-QR*

mmmmm cup walking FTMFW!!! <3 Bulldoggy!


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[+* »_ ]started this one this afternoon...
















hardly finished, but the main hoop is bent and fit, harness bar is welded out. will do some more tommorrow


those are probably the nicest welds i have ever seen.


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## skates (Mar 30, 2007)

dope, i want to see more, i want this same set up in my car.


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## MiniRS4 (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: (Rocco R16V)*

im new to this...
what is wrong w this/these?
bc the cage is not 100% welded together or directly to the car... not legit structural intengrity im guessing?
pls schoool me...
Thanx in advance.


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (skates)*

painted matte black now, but here it is in primer...


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (MiniRS4)*

these photos shown (I didn't look at linked photos) are all examples of good cages. They are designed for different uses. The ones with extensive door work are for situations when other cars will contact like road racing or circle track.


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## dubcitypassat (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

Hello to all my fellow welders. Kudos to all you guys who have welded up their own cages!!!


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (dubcitypassat)*

one someone posted on another forum. thought you might enjoy


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## dubcitypassat (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

Im a big fan of the dimple dies! How does that actually work out with blind spots though? I think it would greatly increase the rigidness of the front section of the cage. its like one giant gusset!


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## bmxdarcy (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (dubcitypassat)*

I love the dimple dies as well. Any more pics of tie-ins into pillars?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

Here are a few of my cage designs going into a 2005 STI. I've already stripped out the car, will post pics of the cage being built if anyone is interested. (Though my post will probably get deleted as with any other post I make).
Also a big fan of dimple dies and their proper use. I made a full set of them for solidworks.








Solidworks design :








Rendered :


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Not a full cage, but a side impact beam I did for my '66 split bus.
There's a few too many Suburbans and duallys on the road for my liking where I live, anything helps in the old bus if the worst were to happen. It's 1 1/4" steel tubing I drilled to lighten and make the bending easier. It's secured with two big phillips screws(similar to what VW used in the door latches, etc.) and two nuts welded in the ends. Drilling the holes for the screws was about the worst part as I had to guess a little where the hole was supposed to wind up. Anyhoo, just a thought for you safety-minded ones.


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## [email protected] (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: Roll Cages (Flavourless)*

A cage we fabbed in a customers car.


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Jade Wombat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jade Wombat* »_Not a full cage, but a side impact beam I did for my '66 split bus.
There's a few too many Suburbans and duallys on the road for my liking where I live, anything helps in the old bus if the worst were to happen. It's 1 1/4" steel tubing I drilled to lighten and make the bending easier. It's secured with two big phillips screws(similar to what VW used in the door latches, etc.) and two nuts welded in the ends. Drilling the holes for the screws was about the worst part as I had to guess a little where the hole was supposed to wind up. Anyhoo, just a thought for you safety-minded ones.

















Im sorry that dosent look safe at all! It looks more dangerous than anything


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

I don't follow you. Dangerous?? How is putting a side-impact beam in make it more dangerous? Or do you mean buses are inherently unsafe?
I get stares from people all the time, i.e. visibility of me isn't a problem where there are exactly 1 split window buses on the road where I live(me :0 ).
I plan to do a cage in the bus in the cab area eventually.


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## bmxdarcy (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (Jade Wombat)*









Are the bends clearing the rear of the door jamb legal?


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Jade Wombat)*

The whole aspect that you drilled a whole bunch of holes in the tube. Then used the holes to help you bend it. Dont get me wrong I love busses and I really want one too


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

is it just me ore are some of these million point, double xcross within a foot of eachother cages, complete overkill?
I used to work for a SCCA Speed Touring camp and there was NOTHING liek that for the World Challenge or others.


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (Zupek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zupek* »_is it just me ore are some of these million point, double xcross within a foot of eachother cages, complete overkill?
I used to work for a SCCA Speed Touring camp and there was NOTHING liek that for the World Challenge or others.

i think its just you. not overkill at all. these designs you speak of are not for door to door racers (although they DO improve chassis stiffness and suspension response) they are the kind of cages you see in rally, hillclimbing, or racing where high speeds and very inanimate objects are involved(i.e trees and rocks)


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## Jade Wombat (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

>The whole aspect that you drilled a whole bunch of holes in the tube. Then used the holes to help you bend it. Dont get me wrong I love busses and I really want one too 
I guess I didn't elaborate on what I started with, very thick tubing I had laying around. Why is it you think drilling a tube will somehow mean it won't work as a side impact beam, like it'll buckle from a crash completely(or this is somehow worse that what the bus had before, which was nothing)? It was still hella to bend this tube after I drilled it as I don't have a hydraulic ram on my bender.
I guess you're right though, ALL metals get weaker after you drill holes in them, they could never make a stronger or better design after drilling. Smell that...that's sarcasm







. Please see below.


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (Jade Wombat)*

umm, totally off topic but the holes in the aircraft frame arent meant to make it stronger- its to make it lighter. and the holes on the rotor? for cooling
metals DO get weaker when you drill holes in them- that is why you see the dimple die used in the sheet metal gussets-it creates a flange to regain some of the strength lost.
(drive those crossdrilled rotors thru a puddle after hard braking and see what happens)


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (bulldogger72)*

some nice cracks you will have lol


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

what do you guys think of this?


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## dubcitypassat (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

Hey Flavourless, IMHO I dont really care for bolt in cages, but this set up you have is really slick!!! Nice and clean looking. The rollbar shouldnt go anywhere, but I would also drill myself a hole into the floor up front on the rollbar. I think it should be tied down that way as well. It may help that pad stay where it needs to stay and it may take some stress off of that little bolt thats holding it. Nice looking cage though. I do like I will give this one a bump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (dubcitypassat)*

crafsmanship is good, and i will give you points for thinking outside the box...but- the main hoop is held in place by 2 M8 bolts on a horizontal axis. impo it wont do much in the way of rollover protection, and very little in terms of chassis stiffness.
bolt in cages are required to have X amount of hardware and backing plates where it bolts thru.
just something to think about


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (bulldogger72)*

I didnt build that roll bar guys. A gentleman out of Canada built the cage. There are def some things I would change about it. But for a bolt in cage that can be bolted in and unbolted with out ever knowing it was there I think its fairly decent.
I would like to see an another bolt on the other side of the xbrace. one on the outside and two on the inside. Also harness guide hoops would be nice, but when doing a production cage its hard to tell where everyone is going to have their seats and can vary a little bit side to side. I also agree there really should be a bolt or two going through the floor but I can see why they did that like I mentioned. You dont have to try to explain or fix holes in the floor. I know this roll bar is built for HPDE events only and it attatches much like many of the 996/997 roll bars.
From what I hear this bar actually stiffens up the car quite a bit. What are your guys opinion on the outside down tubes going from where the harness bar is to the rear? Would you recommend adding straight down tubes, like your typical down tubes off the top of the main hoop down to the rear mounting area as well?


_Modified by Flavourless at 6:45 PM 3-1-2009_


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

The S2000 bar sure looks nice, but I wouldn't consider that anything more than a harness bar.
I would feel better about it if the rear stays were attached higher up, rather than down near the floor. Still, very nicely made.


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

s2000?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

oops, I jumped the gun on that one! Was just chatting about S2000s with a friend, and I must have typed faster than I thought ...


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

hahaha thats what I was figuring







But I do like s2k's got any caged s2k's


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## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

this was my first cage and I still have a couple more bars to add. 
I would definitly change some things for next time.
main thing being I would buy a good tubing bender instead of having someone else bend the bars( way to much back and forth when something is a hair off or bent wrong)
all in all I'm hapy with it.
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_Modified by misc.motorsports at 9:58 AM 3-2-2009_


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: Roll Cages ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_










The double cross bar seems like overkill, that's what I was saying... Unless this guy plans on rallying the car, I think it's complete overkill for this car...


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (misc.motorsports)*

constructive critisizm: you need to start over. that main hoop is waaay to low, as are your forward laterals. have you test fit a seat in there? i bet your head hits. and at the A pillar those should be in a few inches aswell, a nice rolling offset hugging the structure of the pillar.
im sorry to say, but that cage is a death trap


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## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: (bulldogger72)*

thanks for the reply. I did build the cage around the seat with me in in and a helmet on and I still have an inch between my helmet and the cage. I would definitly like to move the lateral bars out more but the guy who bend my main hoop didn't make it wide enough. Next time I will just buy a bender and make all the bars myself


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## Zupek (May 10, 2000)

*Re: (misc.motorsports)*

live and learn, first hand....


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (Zupek)*

I see the floorpan isn't stock, but is the cage just welded right to the floorpan or does it tie into the rockers or some sort of spaceframe under the floor skin?


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Afazz)*








that is scary and wow that cage is low...dash bar is a lil crooked too







i spy rear motor mk2..any more pics?


_Modified by Flavourless at 11:02 AM 3-2-2009_


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## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

as far as the cage being low. YES it is low but my seats and brackes mount right to the floor and my head is barely above the window in the door. So I am plenty far away from the cage. My head is not close even with a helmet on. 

as for the cage mounts I have 2 2x3 box tubing pieces tying the front frame rails to the back ones and then 1inch box tubing creating the whole floor. then 6 inch square 1/4 inch plates welded to the 2x3 then the cage mounts to the plates.
thanks for all the replies. I always welcome critisizm because it helps everybody learn. I know it's not the best cage but it's my first and I think it is pretty good.
more pics can be found here
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4017660


_Modified by misc.motorsports at 11:31 AM 3-2-2009_


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## [email protected] (Dec 3, 2008)

*Re: Roll Cages (Zupek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zupek* »_
The double cross bar seems like overkill, that's what I was saying... Unless this guy plans on rallying the car, I think it's complete overkill for this car...

This car sees high track speeds so safety and chassis rigidity were the focus of the build. If you don't put enough braces in the right places the car can give the driver less than optimal response when they are pushing the limits. Another added benefit is a car can sometimes survive a crash somewhat better and still be salvageable to still run before cosmetic repairs are performed. This guy knows the chances of crashing his car is high, but if he can continue to enjoy the event for the full duration, he is happy to get his full money's/time's worth. Also, the small amount of extra weight added to the car is returned with better performance. When this car runs at the track it is very competitive. The driver has driven this car with a much lesser cage and commented on the improved behavior of the car on the track with the new design.




_Modified by [email protected] at 5:47 PM 3-2-2009_


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## stockcarboy (Sep 3, 2006)

the begining of my v8 mk3 golf 4 door


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## calyp_so_fine (Jun 9, 2008)

*Re: (stockcarboy)*

which motor are you planning on using?


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## stockcarboy (Sep 3, 2006)

for now im using the built 5.7L chevy 350 out of my prostock racecar after a couple years i would like to find lt1 or ls1 all alluminum v8


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (stockcarboy)*

for those wondering about extra bars- its not just rally cars that can use them. here is a track car that had a bad off, notice there is no A or B pillar bar, nor anything in the roof plane...
































so again i will state- if you are looking to build a cage, at least look over FIA article 253, and build as much cage as you can.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

Holy ****. That last picture is horrific. That is insane. Good reminder.


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

wow thats insane!!! did it have roof spreader or anything?


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## Withidlehands (Nov 29, 2007)

I remember reading about that guys build on motorgeek. Crazy stuff to since that car was super nice. Did they ever find out if it was his brakes that gave out and sent him into the tree?


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## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: (Withidlehands)*

wow definitly going to add some more bars in the future


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## RTW Rally (Jun 12, 2003)

*Re: (misc.motorsports)*

Ok, here is mine








G2 rally


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## bmxdarcy (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (RTW Rally)*

This one is not mine just found it but it's an '03 WRX.
























FIA art. 253 doesn't specifically say anything about pillar ties, does anyone have any recommendations on what length of the pillar is necessary to cover? And do you normally 'box' the pillar in?


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (bmxdarcy)*

Those door bars look like they dont offer any kind of protection. The bar from the main hoop to the lower part comes down before the door, and the lower tube runs below the door along the rocker


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## bmxdarcy (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't think the door bar is even there for protection.


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: (bmxdarcy)*


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## WOT (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_Also a big fan of dimple dies and their proper use. 


can you elaborate on the proper use?


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: (bmxdarcy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bmxdarcy* »_ This one is not mine just found it but it's an '03 WRX.


















Anyone else notice anything wrong with these pictures? That's structural welding alright.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (idrivemyself)*


_Quote, originally posted by *idrivemyself* »_
Anyone else notice anything wrong with these pictures? That's structural welding alright.









Are you just saying the welds are ugly, or are you referring to the pillar tie that isn't fully welded?


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## mk2 16v turbo (Apr 2, 2006)

*FV-QR*

i love cup walking, def makes some really nice welds but doin it outta a bevel, that's a whole 'nother story. Respect to Bulldog for doin the man style cup walking


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
Are you just saying the welds are ugly, or are you referring to the pillar tie that isn't fully welded?

Nope. They used silicon-bronze to weld the pillar. Silicon-bronze is very soft and used for body work, never for structural welding.


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## WOT (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: (idrivemyself)*

maybe they were worried about fatigue from movement between the somewhat flexy body and very rigid cage and wanted a weld that wasnt brittle? also wouldnt even silicon bronze rip the thin sheetmetal of the pillar before cracking the filler material? just thinking out loud.
also look at those large weld areas, and what those brackets are actually accomplishing, their not totally holding the car together just tying it in. I dont think theyre going anywhere.



_Modified by WOT at 7:12 AM 4-9-2009_


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

im pretty sure its not silicon bronze, its just got some surface rust


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## idrivemyself (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_im pretty sure its not silicon bronze, its just got some surface rust

When silicon-bronze is properly laid down you get the nice bronze color like you see on some of the welds. When it is laid down too hot it gets the gray color, which is carbon.
I'll try to find some pictures.


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## Trevis (Mar 7, 2004)

Yeah, sil-bronze for sure. No good.


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Trevis)*

Ill third that motion. Definitely silicone bronze


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## Trevis (Mar 7, 2004)

May as well chime in with mine. Its a show car, so its not perfect, or designed to meet any sanctioned guidelines, but I built it.


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## bmxdarcy (Mar 7, 2006)

what is everyone's opinion on bolt on harnesses versus the wrap-around style??


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## x SPY x (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: (bmxdarcy)*

Wrap around for sure. I've seen the little tabs that people weld to the cage for their harness snap clean off.


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## WackyWabbitRacer (Apr 24, 2001)

*Re: (x SPY x)*


_Quote, originally posted by *x SPY x* »_Wrap around for sure. I've seen the little tabs that people weld to the cage for their harness snap clean off. 

If that was the situation, then the individual who did the welding should be kick in the balls.
Cheers, WWR.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: (WackyWabbitRacer)*

These are awesome cages.... good work.


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## ellmenohpee (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: (GTijoejoe)*









Wheeler








Tow Rig








cages on order








the Shiz we do for funn!!!!




_Modified by ellmenohpee at 2:11 PM 4-24-2009_


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: (ellmenohpee)*

















































turns left http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by MK123GTi at 8:55 AM 5-16-2009_


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