# Why all the fuss over 1.8T's?



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

It seems like evertime a swap project gets in the decieding phase on vortex, every one gets all excited for 1.8T's. I know there is plenty of power to be made with them, but is it worth it for all of the downsides to the motor? I work at a custom VW shop, and dont understand the facination with it, it seems we constantly have 3-4 cars at the shop with 1.8T's in for major service (Headgaskets, oil sludging, busted water pumps causing even more damage-Way to go VW on fragile plasic impeller water pumps BTW!). I understand the people that arent around them all the time, and dont see all the downsides, but see the #'s they put down, and base there descisions solely on that. I know a lot of people that work at custom VW shops, and most of them fear the 1.8T for the same reasons. This has just been driving me nuts for some time, and wanted to hear others thoughts. Pic of my VRT hoopty for views.....


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

I'm really regretting buying out mk4 Jetta Wagon with a 1.8T... when everything is working hold on... but that is only about 20% of the time. Between it not wanting ot start when its cold(which mind you the dealer cannot figure out and its been through 3 different coolant temp sensors) to the surging under boost at random. I'm so ready to drive this car right into a ****ing telephone pole... I heart the 12v in my Golf


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (85Golf12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_ I heart the 12v in my Golf









As I heart the 12V in my rabbit.


----------



## dedicated2vw (Aug 31, 2004)

*Re: (patatron)*

very nice rabbit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (dedicated2vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dedicated2vw* »_very nice rabbit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

It's OK.


----------



## Montanagreenmachine (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (patatron)*

I guess my comment to that is where do most of the donor motors come from?? -Soccer moms in there mkIV Jetta wagons and Audi A4s who just drive for a living and don't take care of there cars..
They just hit up Jiffy lube whenever it is convenient for them to get a conventional oil change. (I'm sure the husbands make their wifes read the owners manual







).
For me, the choice easy. I got my motor with 7700 original miles. (Pretty sure it had the first oil still in it). I knew I was dealing with a good motor to begin with. 20,000 miles later it has been flawless. But I take care of my motor, unlike the 90% of the general population who buys these cars just for "transportation".
I get excited everytime I pop the hood. (Defenently more than a vr6 transplant ever would). -So for me there were no downsides other than the fact that I actuall had to but some thought into the swap, and maybe alittle more money than a typical vr6.
Props to you for getting a vr into a mkI, but I bet you had more effort fabing motor mounts, and wiring the thing than I did to get things to work out.
I guess the last thing I can do is show you a pic of my engine bay and you tell me if you are not excited, if not intrigued by it.
My .02


----------



## VWHESS (May 4, 2005)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (Montanagreenmachine)*

wOw.....I cant wait until mines done.....youve inspired


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (Montanagreenmachine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Montanagreenmachine* »_I guess my comment to that is where do most of the donor motors come from?? -Soccer moms in there mkIV Jetta wagons and Audi A4s who just drive for a living and don't take care of there cars..
They just hit up Jiffy lube whenever it is convenient for them to get a conventional oil change. (I'm sure the husbands make their wifes read the owners manual







).
For me, the choice easy. I got my motor with 7700 original miles. (Pretty sure it had the first oil still in it). I knew I was dealing with a good motor to begin with. 20,000 miles later it has been flawless. But I take care of my motor, unlike the 90% of the general population who buys these cars just for "transportation".
I get excited everytime I pop the hood. (Defenently more than a vr6 transplant ever would). -So for me there were no downsides other than the fact that I actuall had to but some thought into the swap, and maybe alittle more money than a typical vr6.
Props to you for getting a vr into a mkI, but I bet you had more effort fabing motor mounts, and wiring the thing than I did to get things to work out.
I guess the last thing I can do is show you a pic of my engine bay and you tell me if you are not excited, if not intrigued by it.
My .02









I can honestly say it looks good but i'm glad its yours and not mine. I'd much rather see the VR under the hood of my Golf with a snail behind it. Are you running stock management or some form of standalone?


----------



## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (patatron)*

A lot of the hype may have to with the grannieboy story about how VR6 cars flip over in corners, and that a VR6 is about 500lbs heavier than any other engine ever made by anybody and causes massive understeer. 
It's funny how people are all about how the 1.8T is so much lighter and handles better, then in the next breath they're wearing me out about the superior-to-the-VR6 HP potential of the 1.8T. Are you gonna go canyon carving, or drag racing? Do they even know *why* they're building a car, and *what* they're building it for? Have fun dealing with turbo lag coming out of a corner. 
Seems like I see a lotta people jabbering about how badass their 1.8T swap is gonna be, and how it's gonna have 10,000whp and out run the word of God and blar zar lar, then next thing you know they gotta pay the shop labor bill, and the car's in the classifieds as a "project". It's all too easy to get sucked in by the "just a little more money" syndrome. 
Fact is a lot more VR6's are getting done, or at least seeing the street, but I couldn't say whether it's because the swaps are easier to find, afford, put together, or all of the above. Or if it's just a blast to drive a car that has HP and torque right now without having to wait for some too-big turbo to spool. 
I'm not bagging on 1.8T's, I'm bagging on the wannabe idiots who know more than everybody else about everything. 
I've ridden in Andy's car (couldn't talk him into letting me drive it) and the car's really right. He got in on the ground floor, bought his donor car right, and figured the sh*t out for himself. Just like it oughtta be. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by vr6swap at 8:11 PM 1-17-2006_


----------



## vanaman (Aug 26, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (Montanagreenmachine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Montanagreenmachine* »_











fantastic car! ive seen it in person several times. i just want to ride in it








steve


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (Montanagreenmachine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Montanagreenmachine* »_I guess my comment to that is where do most of the donor motors come from?? -Soccer moms in there mkIV Jetta wagons and Audi A4s who just drive for a living and don't take care of there cars..
They just hit up Jiffy lube whenever it is convenient for them to get a conventional oil change. (I'm sure the husbands make their wifes read the owners manual







).
For me, the choice easy. I got my motor with 7700 original miles. (Pretty sure it had the first oil still in it). I knew I was dealing with a good motor to begin with. 20,000 miles later it has been flawless. But I take care of my motor, unlike the 90% of the general population who buys these cars just for "transportation".
I get excited everytime I pop the hood. (Defenently more than a vr6 transplant ever would). -So for me there were no downsides other than the fact that I actuall had to but some thought into the swap, and maybe alittle more money than a typical vr6.
Props to you for getting a vr into a mkI, but I bet you had more effort fabing motor mounts, and wiring the thing than I did to get things to work out.
I guess the last thing I can do is show you a pic of my engine bay and you tell me if you are not excited, if not intrigued by it.
My .02









 
Very clean looking swap you have there! Looks great! I bet if more people had them since new, or at least like you got yours with low miles, and did regular oil changes, and only used a high quality 100% synthetic every change, there would be less issues with them. We have plenty of regular customers that do the 3000 mile oil change, and dont opt for synthetic, and they are having to pay the price now. I run full synthetic in my car as well, as I drive like a complete jackass, and with that turbo, all the protection I can get is probably in my best interest!


----------



## titeGTi (Jun 13, 2001)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (patatron)*

for me, the only reason i want a VR is the exhaust note. its too bad unless you throw a decent sized turbo on there you wont get decent power. i was just talking to a friend about how you get on average you only get about 240ish on a supercharger, average being the key word here, i know there are people out there puttin more down with a s/c. for a fraction of the cost, you can get close to a s/c'ed 12v.
i am sticking with a 4banger in my MK2 just for the fact that there is a little more room to work with and you can make decent power with a 20v, and even more with a 2liter bottom end and even a little more with a decent t3/t4.
LR engineering, hurry up with my 20/20 pistons!!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (titeGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *titeGTi* »_for me, the only reason i want a VR is the exhaust note.

It's OK. I'd still be rocking a VR6 to this day if there was a class where I could competively run an all motor 6cyl import.







"1.8T's" are junk, but built 20v hybrids do alright.


----------



## JoeM29 (May 31, 2001)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (need_a_VR6)*

i dont understand how someone can think 1.8t's are "junk" i currently own both a vr6 and 1.8t a2's although my 1.8t one isnt finished my friends is. they are both great cars that have different things to offer. but if you are talking stock for stock, the 1.8t is faster and has very little lag. i am a complete vr man but i dont think you should diss the 1.8t until you drive one. and the reason why everyone is all about the 1.8t is the bang for the buck, but what they dont realize is that you never get easy- or cheap horsepower without the risk of breakage. just my 2 cents
thanks, joe


----------



## kobe82 (Dec 27, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (JoeM29)*

i am 2 looking for a swap i am going to get a 1.8t just becouse its the next best step in my process all i want is 200 stock hp well a 1.8t with a decent water ic will produce that and only eat up a fraction of the cost anybody can build a dragster but to build a streetable car that still hauls is just plane cool


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (JoeM29)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeM29* »_i dont understand how someone can think 1.8t's are "junk" i currently own both a vr6 and 1.8t a2's although my 1.8t one isnt finished my friends is. they are both great cars that have different things to offer. but if you are talking stock for stock, the 1.8t is faster and has very little lag. i am a complete vr man but i dont think you should diss the 1.8t until you drive one. and the reason why everyone is all about the 1.8t is the bang for the buck, but what they dont realize is that you never get easy- or cheap horsepower without the risk of breakage. just my 2 cents
thanks, joe

I own both i still think the 1.8sneeze is junk. Mechanically its pretty solid as far as i'm concerned. Electrically its a ****ing joke...


----------



## GLImax (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (85Golf12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_
I own both i still think the 1.8sneeze is junk. Mechanically its pretty solid as far as i'm concerned. Electrically its a ****ing joke... 

Your a joke







(btw send me your email for a pic)
Personal preference. Some just love the throaty sound of a VR others love turbos. Personally I believe both are well built engines although I would rather have a 1.8t before a VR. I value the 1.8t more on the basis that I like it capabilities and I like having a vdub thats unique. Just my opinion. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (GLImax)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLImax* »_Your a joke







(btw send me your email for a pic)
Personal preference. Some just love the throaty sound of a VR others love turbos. Personally I believe both are well built engines although I would rather have a 1.8t before a VR. I value the 1.8t more on the basis that I like it capabilities and I like having a vdub thats unique. Just my opinion. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Nothing like the sound of a spooled VR







Run standalone on that 1.8t and it will run like a raped ape... don't run the stock management though or it will never run like it should.


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (JoeM29)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeM29* »_i dont understand how someone can think 1.8t's are "junk" ......

i think they have there good points. but the down sides overweigh them in my opinion. I have to regularly do major services on 1.8T at the VW shop where I work, and often times the cars only have 50-75K on them. There is even one aftermarket warranteee company that will not offer coverage on vehicles equiped with the 1.8T (You know, the extended warrantee thing).


----------



## 155VERT83 (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (patatron)*

Good looking Q-Ship. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_ I know there is plenty of power to be made with them, but is it worth it for all of the downsides to the motor? 

Tuning potential is the big allure. When properly cared for (3-5Kmi synthetic oil changes, proper cooldown, etc.), tunes 1.8T's seen offer more dollar-for-dollar hp than tuned VR6s. But *both* engines are good choices depending on how much disposable cash you have to to expend.








BTW, what kind of hp/tq numbers is that beast generating??










_Modified by 155VERT83 at 2:27 AM 1-19-2006_


----------



## kobe82 (Dec 27, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (155VERT83)*

see i am goona go fire and fuel setup standalone so it will be much more dependable as far as engine managemt is concerned


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (JoeM29)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeM29* »_i dont understand how someone can think 1.8t's are "junk" 

I own one too, or at least my wife does







It's a decent motor in stock form, OK with bolt ons. Anything that tosses rods that easily just isn't worth it though when there are other stock VW blocks that'll hold more with no modifications other then valve reliefs for the center intake. More or less the only thing worth keeping is the head, and only the large port ones at that!


----------



## 93vr (Mar 25, 2005)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (need_a_VR6)*

now i think the hype for the one 8 T is because ppl what to out do the big bad 2.8 by getting a much smaller 1.8 and out doing the vr in hp and torque. Some ppl i have done work for also feel as thoght they save money on gas (not like the turbos helping you out or anything) and they think the vr6 is so insanly heavy and there car is going to be fliping over once they take it on the road....but that not the point vr will always out do the 1.8t when it comes to the top end so wieght isent the factor so i dunno i realy could care less for the 1.8t .....now im a guy who loves the 12v tunning and is not so much for 20vT so it just my personal opinon and im sure there are a handfull of 1.8t that are putting out crazy numbers but they just dont do it for me


----------



## dubkiddct (Jan 11, 2004)

I think the mythbusters should do a mk2vr6 canyon flipping episode to disprove the hype. I keep hearing vr swaps are so run of the mill, everybodys got one, however the 1.8 turbo is catching up day by day. I dont feel that people claiming vr swaps to be cliche' is fair since everybodys doing 1.8t's


----------



## dubkiddct (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (Montanagreenmachine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Montanagreenmachine* »_I guess my comment to that is where do most of the donor motors come from?? -Soccer moms in there mkIV Jetta wagons and Audi A4s who just drive for a living and don't take care of there cars..
They just hit up Jiffy lube whenever it is convenient for them to get a conventional oil change. (I'm sure the husbands make their wifes read the owners manual







).
For me, the choice easy. I got my motor with 7700 original miles. (Pretty sure it had the first oil still in it). I knew I was dealing with a good motor to begin with. 20,000 miles later it has been flawless. But I take care of my motor, unlike the 90% of the general population who buys these cars just for "transportation".
I get excited everytime I pop the hood. (Defenently more than a vr6 transplant ever would). -So for me there were no downsides other than the fact that I actuall had to but some thought into the swap, and maybe alittle more money than a typical vr6.
Props to you for getting a vr into a mkI, but I bet you had more effort fabing motor mounts, and wiring the thing than I did to get things to work out.
I guess the last thing I can do is show you a pic of my engine bay and you tell me if you are not excited, if not intrigued by it.
My .02











gorgeous car!!!!!!


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (dubkiddct)*

Because the VR is an old motor and the 1.8T is the new thing.... people just look at the numbers also. The VR is a torque monster, and it will send a light car (A1 or A2's) pretty good. The 1.8T needs a huge turbo that takes forever to spool up to put down these huge numbers that everyone raves about. Yeah, 400bhp, but where's it at? At 4 grand? Not much good that'll do you except in a straight line.....


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: (dubkiddct)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubkiddct* »_ I dont feel that people claiming vr swaps to be cliche' is fair since everybodys doing 1.8t's
 
i think its lame when people say that. like that should be you deciding factor when choosing a motor for a street car. i dont drive around saying "this car is fun to drive, but damn if it isnt an unoriginal swap!". unless your doing it for a show car.


----------



## Byron N. (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: (ArpyArpad)*

A big plus for me (and I'm sure others) is you already start with a motor designed for boost. Unless your going to go for huge h.p. you don't have to stack head gaskets, get custom pistons, find some one to make a "chip" for your NA motor, build intake and exhaust manifolds, modify your oil pan, route oil lines, ... I could go on but I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from. The 1.8T drops into most cars easily and can be used with many different transmissions, which takes a lot of fab work out of it. Not everyone has the cash or ability to carry out fab work. I love the VR6, but its taken a long time for good turbo kits to come along for them. I feel if the tuner industry would have taken a more aggressive approach to the VR6 it would have a stronger following today. The 1.8T is the only real reason that tuners had to go "big" and turbo the VR. By the way I would love to have Patarons Rabbit for my daily driver, but I'd probably flip it pulling out of my driveway







Just kidding.


----------



## jettaboy_gtx (Apr 12, 2003)

*Re: (Byron N.)*

well theres still 50 times more VR swaps out there then there is 1.8Ts so i dont see the point of this thread at all unless it said VR6 instead the 1.8T in the title








and yeah its just a matter of preference, everybody likes different things it has always been like that and always will.
and even tho i think your bunny VRT is great and i love it its something i would never do in such a light car. 1.8T







or even a built NA 16V would be much better for that car in my opinion
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_"1.8T's" are junk, but built 20v hybrids do alright.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I like VR6's just as much as the next dude but the reality is VW/Audi makes alot of OTHER great engines.The inline-5 20V,the Inline-4 20V,The VR5,VR6,etc.
WHat is all the fuss over the 1.8T?Simple,there is none.The MK4 and the 1.8T forum guys who havent been on the vw scene since they could first drive a car create this huge hype over nothing making a bad name for the engine.
"the 1.8T is the must swap to have"








"the 1.8T is the fastest thing since the mcclaren"









"the 1.8T owns all"








The only component my Hybrid shares with a "1.8T" is the head.Everything else I have dug into the vw parts bin for.To be honest pick the engine you want,modify it and drive it...
I notice you (pataron) take great pride in your work and you get a http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif from me for that but your an attention whore.You make it known that you have the first VR6T in a rabbit and thats great but a MK1 Golf deserves a 4-Cyl engine not a VR6.Right swap...wrong chassis.


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_You make it known that you have the first VR6T in a rabbit and thats great but a MK1 Golf deserves a 4-Cyl engine not a VR6.Right swap...wrong chassis.

maybe in your opinion...


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_ You make it known that you have the first VR6T in a rabbit and thats great but a MK1 Golf deserves a 4-Cyl engine not a VR6.Right swap...wrong chassis.


I doubt I was the first to do it, I would bet there are others out there. I owned a 16VT rabbit, and have driven any MKI swap you can imagine (I do this for a living). Nothing has come close to the impressiveness of the VRT in that chassis. It handles very well actually (I would have done a 4 cyl for autocross or something like that though), and having the power at 1300 RPM is unbeatable compared to the smaller forced induction motors with excessive lag, or the built N/A motors with unimpressive peak numbers (IMO). My boss owns a 2.0T rabbit with a dyno proven 8 more WHP than my car, yet I run .8 faster in the 1/4.......


----------



## nimbusmk1 (Aug 12, 2003)

I might be wrong but i think the first VR6T rabbit was built in my home town of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. That rabbit had a S/C vr6 about 6years ago. 3 years ago the owner swaped the S/C for a big turbo. He blew the motor soon after the turbo install. It should be out this spring with a fully built 3.0 engine. 
I find it strange that nobody has mentioned the aba 16VT. It is cheaper than the 1.8t but can still make some very impressive power.


----------



## GTIwithboost (Apr 16, 2004)

*Re: (nimbusmk1)*

I think it's personal preference. I have a 2.0L swap in my rabbit and I can only imagine a 1.8T or VR swap in a MK1. I love the sound of a VR, but I enjoy the punch of a 1.8T. VW generally makes pretty solid motors but I don't think the 1.8T has the stamina of the VR. My coil pack wires are roasted at 65k, my water pump went at 50k, my coil packs at 35k. Still having the choice for a swap I'd go with a 1.8T, I know the weakness's but I still love turbo's.








BTW Montanagreenmachine I think your car is incredible, nice work. It must be hard to get traction!



_Modified by GTIwithboost at 3:25 AM 1-23-2006_


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (GTIwithboost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIwithboost* »_ Still having the choice for a swap I'd go with a 1.8T, I know the weakness's but I still love turbo's.









I do to, that's why my VR6 has a turbo!


----------



## McSpanky (Jul 31, 2005)

i think vr6s are done more because they are just easier to do.. i mean the 1.8t is so much more electrical and all the vr6 swap isn't AS much its cooler sounds better.. the 1.8t is a nice engine but the everyoen goes 1.8t is faster than stock vr6 well yeah the 1.8t is turbo charged.. put a stock 1.8t turbo set up on a vr6 and it would pretty much spank the 1.8t yeah its a whole liter bigger but your all saying a turbo engine is faster than a N/A engine well. its turbo. im a fan of N/A i like all motor and fast all motor cars. so im going with a vr6 swap. thanks have a nice day. even though i just repeated like the same thing 20 times. sorry
and for everyone saying bout the vr6 flipping.. i have never heard a story bout that.. nor do i understand it.. unless you are running soft as **** springs theres no real reason for it to flip.. you'd have to be getting some massive interia like doing 80 thru a 15mph turn







so ... i was thinking if it does flip.. why not run stiff spring sin the front and soft springs in the rear to the car compinsates for the interia by sagging more in the rear. or maybe i have these mixed up ionno i have too much caffiene in me.


_Modified by McSpanky at 11:51 AM 1-23-2006_


----------



## ajd5 (Mar 25, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (85Golf12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_
Run standalone on that 1.8t and it will run like a raped ape... don't run the stock management though or it will never run like it should.

this is not true at all. there are many people here making serious amounts of power without standalone whos cars run perfect.


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (ajd5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ajd5* »_this is not true at all. there are many people here making serious amounts of power without standalone whos cars run perfect. 

oh ya and they've deleted n249 running aftermarket DV's using manual boost controllers to control the surge. If you want to spend the cash on a bunch of aftermarket parts to make it run correctly with big turbo's and apr software you can. point is stock the sob's shouldn't have all the issues that they do. by the time they add in all the aftermarket pieces to make the crappy stock management run correctly they could have bought a nice standalone setup and made more hp in the long run.


----------



## Blue Boost (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (85Golf12v)*

heres mine.


----------



## zaskar (Jan 17, 2000)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (little dubber)*

I had a 1.8t from a passat into my 91 Jetta... Now going VR6-T for severals reasons. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (patatron)*

What fuss?!
I've never been that impressed with 1.8t's - its just a hunk of finely machined German parts just like my 8v


----------



## Sparknock (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (McSpanky)*

i dont like either motor. vr's leak too much oil. 1.8t's because too complexe of a computer set up. i'll stick with my 9a turbo.


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (Sparknock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sparknock* »_i dont like either motor. vr's leak too much oil. 1.8t's because too complexe of a computer set up. i'll stick with my 9a turbo.

amazing my motor has 92k with all of the original seals and gaskets and doesn't leak a drop...


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: (85Golf12v)*

Why the fuss? A lack of open mindedness and people being stubborn. I've had 2 VR6 cars, a 93 VR corrado, and built an A2 VR GTi. Both cars are great to drive, have a great sound, and awesome torque down low even at stock. The A2 was slightly faster due to being mostly stripped out interior as well, it would probably run high 14's. The corrado could handle like no other. Over all I feel the VR is a GREAT motor overall and I have had great success with both of mine.
Now i'm working on an A1 1.8t swap. Why? well I wanted to try something different, more of a highway ripper, track car type. Could I do that with an A1 VR Turbo? Probably, but did the VR twice, now its time to see how 250+ WHP feels in an A1 chasis. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I still love the VR more though


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (d-bot)*

No matter which motor 250 whp in an A1 is going to feel GOOD!!! I pity your Corrado and A2 once you get your A1 going... they will likely feel rather neglected and lonely (gross anthropomorphism going on here but still!)...


----------



## IanGTI (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

so i take it 1.8t swapped into a mk1 wouldnt be as good as a 16vT? ive been debating over the two for my A1 and ive heard a lot of different opinions.







i guess keeping the 16vT running smoothly with low compression is the part that makes me nervous. 2.0L bottom end, head gasket? is that all you need? ive heard new pistons too, is it really needed?


----------



## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (IanGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IanGTI* »_so i take it 1.8t swapped into a mk1 wouldnt be as good as a 16vT? ive been debating over the two for my A1 and ive heard a lot of different opinions.







i guess keeping the 16vT running smoothly with low compression is the part that makes me nervous. 2.0L bottom end, head gasket? is that all you need? ive heard new pistons too, is it really needed?

A stock 1.8T is good to about 350HP. You never even have to take it apart. Far superior to a 16V


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*

yes but can you actually get the power to the ground in a reasonable fashion is the question ?


----------



## dedicated2vw (Aug 31, 2004)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_A stock 1.8T is good to about 350HP. You never even have to take it apart. Far superior to a 16V

How is long term reliability when pushing the 1.8 like that?


----------



## BoostedOne (Mar 30, 2003)

Well, I own quite a bit of the spectrum....A2 with an 8V turbo, an A2 with a VR swap, and a 1.8T car....
For something you want performance out of, its gotta be turbo. And dollar for dollar, you can do a turbo 8V for less than the other two. AND, my turbo 8V will friggin smoke my VR6. 
Yeah, you can always turbo the VR, but then you got twice the money in the swap. And once I get back on the project Im lookin for Turbo VR numbers out of my Turbo 8V anyhow..
And getting the power to the ground is a great point... With a turbo 8V or 20V yes you can, atleast for drag racing as there are automatics that can handle the power which lets you not shock the tires as hard but get more power to the ground over the run.
But it depends on what you want the car for.. My VR is so reliable its not even funny. I put over 10K miles on my swap since July, and didnt have a single powertrain problem with it except for a busted CV and bad clutch master. My 8V turbo on the other hand is a constant *****. My 20V car isnt a swap, but its equally reliable as well. 
If I was to do my 92 again, I MIGHT consider a 20V swap. Problem is cost, and you can do a VR for less, and its a less complicated job. But I would not walk from it based on performance. Lag is a bunch of horsesh*t, and so is the VR being a torque monster. Do a second gear roll even in my lowly 8V car with a high ass 3.17 ring gear.. yeah, at first its pretty uneventful but a second later the tires are spinning to redline. 
I dunno, Im just babbling, I need to go to bed..LOL


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Sparknock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sparknock* »_i dont like either motor. vr's leak too much oil. 1.8t's because too complexe of a computer set up. i'll stick with my 9a turbo.

My VR is bone dry on the bottom. It has about 100K on it. I have only replaced the pan and rear main seals on it ever, and that was only because i was doing a clutch, and pan to prep for the turbo install. I have been beating the hell out of my Bunny's VRT for over a year now, and have only had to replace a clutch master, and a snapped axle. My 2 favorite swaps (Both in miami blue 77 rabbits!), the VR6(T), and the TDI.


----------



## jsnVR6 (Feb 5, 2001)

I have both engines also.
The VR6 went from stock to stupid power. I loved it in all forms.
The 1.8T was ehhhh.....i didn't have strong feelings either way. That is the problem.....
You love getting in your VR6 everyday. The 1.8T is just like transportation to me... no heart or soul.
Also....the 1.8T Check Engine light just came on again......

Here is the best test....take a VR6 out and rip it up from a stop to the top of 3rd gear, it and you will love and and ask for more.
Do the same in the 1.8T and you will be looking at the dash expecting a check engine light or looking under the hood to make sure you didn't melt the turbo. After a hard run in the 1.8T you feel like you hurt it.
The VR6 just seems to me like it loves to be driven hard. It definatly has soul the 1.8T is empty and common feeling.


----------



## Hybrid VW (Jan 18, 2001)

*Re: (dedicated2vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dedicated2vw* »_How is long term reliability when pushing the 1.8 like that?

I've got over 100,000 miles on mine making around 300hp. VR's sound great and have more ultimate power potential for sure, but I've never heard of one getting 36mpg like my 20v has


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (Hybrid VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hybrid VW* »_I've got over 100,000 miles on mine making around 300hp. VR's sound great and have more ultimate power potential for sure, but I've never heard of one getting 36mpg like my 20v has









I'll gladly keep the 28mpg my VR gets... our 1.8t gets worse mileage than the VR... goes back into the shop on thursday...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (85Golf12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JsnVR6Corrado* »_
The VR6 went from stock to stupid power. I loved it in all forms.
The 1.8T was ehhhh.....i didn't have strong feelings either way. That is the problem.....

Your account isnt really doing the 1.8T justice Jason.Your VR6 (assuming its the twin turbo corrado) has:
* 1000cc's more
* 2 T3.T04E Turbo's
and a hell of alot more parts than the 1.8T.As mentioned before I love the grumble of a VR6.I think the engine is as close to an inline-5 sound but the one thing I am sure that annoys all the VR6 users when they compare themselves to the "1.8T" is the 22mpg (if your lucky) city mileage.Fuel prices are going up...not down.

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_pick the engine you want,modify it and drive it.


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

But the repair prices are not getting any cheaper either, and I easily do 10X the $ amount of work to 1.8T's at our high volume shop than the VR6's.


----------



## Henni (May 14, 2003)

*Re: (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_



















You should call your rabbit "Smurf Killer" or there are 2 so "Smurf Killers". Almost sounds like a band... nice ride!! I bet you make alot of people look pretty stupid w/ it!


----------



## Hybrid VW (Jan 18, 2001)

*Re: (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_But the repair prices are not getting any cheaper either, and I easily do 10X the $ amount of work to 1.8T's at our high volume shop than the VR6's.

Any idea about sales figures between the two engines? I would assume in MkIV's the 20v is much more popular, but when taking into consideration the VR's that have been in production since '92(?), I'm not sure which would be more plentiful.
The wife's '02 20v has worked just fine with the exception of the plastic water pump and a cracked breather hose that the dealer misdiagnosed as carbon deposits, wrong octane gas, and some other BS that they were happy to try to charge us for instead of catching the real problem during hte 60k mile service


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Your account isnt really doing the 1.8T justice Jason.Your VR6 (assuming its the twin turbo corrado) has:
* 1000cc's more
* 2 T3.T04E Turbo's
and a hell of alot more parts than the 1.8T.As mentioned before I love the grumble of a VR6.I think the engine is as close to an inline-5 sound but the one thing I am sure that annoys all the VR6 users when they compare themselves to the "1.8T" is the 22mpg (if your lucky) city mileage.Fuel prices are going up...not down.

Everyone i know who has a 1.8t is lucky to see 22mpg driving in the city 30 out on the highway... They are in heavy ass bigs known as the MK4 or the even heavier Audi's. the only time i have seen more than 30mpg with our 1.8t was when it spent 340 miles straight on the road with the cruise set at 75... If anyone is stupid enough to believe what the MFA is telling them they are idiots. Cause 90% of the time they are never correct. My VR see's about half city half freeway driving. I consitantly get between 26-28mpg checking it the old fashion way... oh but wait if i go by the MFA i'm getting at least 33-35 so that must be correct...







granted its in a mk2 so it doesn't have to tote the weight around but still... AT least when i go outside in the morning to leave for work i know my VR will start right up... I cannot say that for the POS 1.8t sitting right next to it... and don't get me started on the wonderful drive by wire... do you know what its like to step on the gas and have it not working at all... oh ya so much fun when the light turns green and the car will do nothing more than idle... This is in a car that is 4 years old and only has 23k... it acts like its been used and abused for 15 years... Warranty is up in June and it will be traded in before then. I'm just glad that i haven't had to pay a dime for the 3 trips and this thursday the 4th trip to the dealer for repair work. We've had it since last July i'm seeing why it was sitting on the lot with such low mileage in the first place. Cause its just flat out a piece of ****.


----------



## GLImax (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (85Golf12v)*

Does anyone know what a good replacement for the stock water pump would cost, ie. something that will last for a while. I'm thinking of changeing it before I complete my swap.


----------



## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: (GLImax)*

I heart my VR'd MK1 too, a scirocco 2...I built it in late 96, 
the first known scirocco with a vr (Shawn at RPI was doing the rabbit 
at the same time)..
10 years and 100k later, she still turns heads 
when they hear the growl..Next on the agenda: R32 swap 
to replace the tired 12v...
And nonsense on the notion of ill handling/flipping etc..
I did weight reduction on the front end and set up a hardcore 
suspension, the car has neutral-changing-to-mild-overersteer in the twisties, and only weighs 2260lbs with the 
seats/carpet and 
mild audio system in it!...
























Sick bunny, shoot me an e-mail w/details of the build, we can compare notes...

_Modified by nuugen at 9:53 PM 2-1-2006_


_Modified by nuugen at 9:53 PM 2-1-2006_


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (GLImax)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLImax* »_Does anyone know what a good replacement for the stock water pump would cost, ie. something that will last for a while. I'm thinking of changeing it before I complete my swap.

Definately do this! I have had to do so many headgaskets because of people driving them past this pump failure. We wont even do a timing belt with out pump replacement anymore.


----------



## g60_c (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (patatron)*

i'm gonna have to chime in here for a moment..
I know it's not the VW 1.8t.. but.. close-e-friggin-nough.. i have a 2k1 audi A4 1.8T now.. don't get me wrong, it's a nice, smooth, engine.. very refined. My roommate has a 2k A4 with a k04 turbo, and the apr chip.. pulls very well.. smooth... refined..
now with that being said.. i also own a corrado g60.. decently modded (now)...and that engine has given me more thrills, more goosebumps, and a better feel than the 1.8T ever has.. since 4 years ago when i bought it.. stock.. my roommate.. has a VR6 corrado, very mildly modded.. and that again impresses me much more than the 1.8t in EITHER of our 1.8T-equipped cars...
so.. yeah.. i dont' see the huge hype behind the 1.8T either.. frankly, i'm tired of seeing it swapped into everything.. the "local" vw shop.. rennen performance.. is known for it.. they do good work.. but.. their answer to everythign seems to be "put a 1.8t in it!!!" ugh.. it's getting old..
anyway.. just my $.02
-nate


----------



## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: (patatron)*

the hype of a 1.8t over a vr6 in a rabbit is the fact you dont have to avoid ants on the ground for fear of the oil pan hitting


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (VW1990CORRADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW1990CORRADO* »_the hype of a 1.8t over a vr6 in a rabbit is the fact you dont have to avoid ants on the ground for fear of the oil pan hitting









I understand that! And I definately see why people would go this route in a MKI due to it being a much easier swap in that chassis. But I am just talking about the motor in general. Since I started this thread, I have also had to pull 2 1.8t oilpans (Subframe dropping style) an B chassis cars to replace clogged oil pumps, and clean the pan, and had a new beetle eat it's 1.8t. The beetle ended up going to the dealer because their extended warantee only covered dealer labor. And we later found out that the warrantee company only covered the replacement of the waterpump! It had the OE plastic impeller waterpump fail as they always do, and the beetle does not have a temp gauge, it just has the you're ****ed light, so this is not an uncommon fate for new beetles.


----------



## GLImax (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (patatron)*

does anyone know where you can get a metal impeller?


_Modified by GLImax at 6:58 PM 2-24-2006_


----------



## tkic (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: (GLImax)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLImax* »_does anyone know where you can get a metal impeller?

_Modified by GLImax at 6:58 PM 2-24-2006_

the diesel ones are metal. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GLImax (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (tkic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tkic* »_
the diesel ones are metal. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I realize this but I have been told they are different. I bet BBM makes one or something.


----------



## yellerrado (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (patatron)*

the reason i put 1.8t in my corrado was because i got a long block for 350 bucks. it was being a toss up between that and supercharging a 16v in it. well 1.8t fell into my hands so i went that route. im ganna get killed for this but i hate vr6's now from people talkin crap on my car. EVERYONE i talk to about my car says i shoulda bought a slc because the vr6 is better. i hate that *****. and for that reason will never buy a car with a vr6 in it. oh yeah bigger motor and all that but if i want a bigger motor id much rather cut the hell out of a corrado and put a small block chevy in it. screw that purist crap to. this is why my license plate is VRSUX !


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

your reasoning sucks... not the VR...


----------



## yellerrado (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: (85Golf12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_







your reasoning sucks... not the VR...

its makin my statement clear that i dont want an slc or a vr6 in my car.. im tired of people sayin it to me.. and also in my opinion a factory 1.8t car is nothin like a 1.8t with standalone and not in a mk4. another thing with all that.. there was a point where you would pay 2-3k more for a new car with a vr6 then a 1.8t and i do believe the 1.8t made more hp. maybe the vr pulled a little harder but a couple hundred bucks for a chip could easily solve that


----------



## punkassjim (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (yellerrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JsnVR6Corrado* »_Here is the best test....take a VR6 out and rip it up from a stop to the top of 3rd gear, it and you will love and and ask for more.
Do the same in the 1.8T and you will be looking at the dash expecting a check engine light or looking under the hood to make sure you didn't melt the turbo. After a hard run in the 1.8T you feel like you hurt it.
The VR6 just seems to me like it loves to be driven hard. It definatly has soul the 1.8T is empty and common feeling.

Either your 1.8T isn't running right, or you're not very good at driving it. I've found that most folks who drive VR's all the time have no idea how to keep a 1.8T in its power band. Every time I see someone rev a 1.8T up to 7 grand, and I'm immediately thinking "idiot."
I drive my 1.8T every day to and from work, and every single day I arrive at work nearly breathless. I hopped in a VR6 vehicle tonight and went for a wind-it-out test drive, and walked away very unsatisfied.
This from a K03 owner. Ain't exactly a big turbo.

_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_Everyone i know who has a 1.8t is lucky to see 22mpg driving in the city 30 out on the highway... They are in heavy ass bigs known as the MK4 or the even heavier Audi's. the only time i have seen more than 30mpg with our 1.8t was when it spent 340 miles straight on the road with the cruise set at 75... If anyone is stupid enough to believe what the MFA is telling them they are idiots. Cause 90% of the time they are never correct. My VR see's about half city half freeway driving. I consitantly get between 26-28mpg checking it the old fashion way... oh but wait if i go by the MFA i'm getting at least 33-35 so that must be correct...







granted its in a mk2 so it doesn't have to tote the weight around but still... 

When I romp the hell out of my car, I get 28 mpg on the highway. When I'm driving in the city, I might get 26. When I'm behaving myself, I get 32-33. It's in a mk3. Not as light as the mk2, not as heavy as the mk4. Hell, I even ripped all the wires out of both my O2 sensors (road debris) and the car still got 28 mpg until I fixed it. Oh, and I have no MFA. Yet.

_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_don't get me started on the wonderful drive by wire... do you know what its like to step on the gas and have it not working at all... oh ya so much fun when the light turns green and the car will do nothing more than idle... This is in a car that is 4 years old and only has 23k... 

This is not a problem with the motor, it's a problem with the newer electronics. And everyone's experience is different. My drive-by wire works freakin' great. Only problem I ever had was when my engine speed sensor went kaput, and my throttle shut down. But hey, I gotta say, it's kinda nice to know the motor will protect itself from damage due to over-revving, etc.
I dunno, this thread seems to be full of many different issues. Some are general admissions of preference, some are just gripe-fests about maintenance responsibilities. Some are talking about quality control, some are talking about engine potential, and still others are talking about incompetence or unfinished business.
Either way, any swap is what you make of it. So who cares about the hype? I've got a 1.8T swap car that puts a smile on my face every day, and I still absolutely melt at the sound of a VR6 getting wound out. Does that make me envious? Well, not really. I just like a lotta different sh*t.


----------



## skabaru (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (punkassjim)*

Let me first say I am a 2001 Audi A4, 1.8T owner, as are many of my friends. Many of them have larger turbos than my boring 01 K03 Sport with my APR chip and my exhaust. I also have an 8V mk2 Jetta that is getting an ABA swap.
I also have friends with VRs of various tuning, from stock to supercharged.
Personally, I prefer the 1.8T.
So there is an underlying theme here that I see when I see everyone's post on the 1.8T and why it sucks and that appears to be wiring/CELs, etc. which would seem to me would be an installation error. Comparing a poorly installed 1.8T to a BTDT VR install seems like an unfair battle.
My 1.8T has been pretty much flawless. And trust me, I beat the piss out of it. Between track events, autox, etc I work it. I do the oil changes, and the waterpump and Timing Belt were done at 60K to be safe. Other than that, it has been flawless. Mind you the AWD driveline hasn't faired nearly as well. 5-6K launches are hard on things, but SO much fun. 85K miles, all engine stuff is fine. I am on my 3rd tranny and my 4th clutch. There is no lag when you dump the clutch up high... but I digress
The bigger problem I am seeing is how can you put all the power down in a sporting nature, like at the track or the autox, with either motor tuned up? I mean 320hp on a 1.8T through the front wheels is really tough to get on the gas on the track. And yes, you can have 320hp without reving to 4.5K in the GT28/GT28RS....
So are you all looking for drag cars? dyno queens? LSDs or not, anything over 300hp through the front wheels is gonna be difficult on the track. I mean I have seen Mk4 Golfs running the APR Stage 3 kit and it is really tough from a launch, or even into 2nd gear...
I would like to see a 1.8T mk1/mk2 swap that runs as smoothly and trouble free as the bigger turbo Audis do and THEN compare it to the VRs... for a more fair comparison.
As for MPG... I don't drive for MPGs. If I did, I wouldn't be driving a car with 255s on it all summer.
And the only issue I have with DBW is I can't left foot brake on the track to keep boost up... but I have worked around it.



_Modified by skabaru at 10:52 PM 2-27-2006_


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (yellerrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yellerrado* »_its makin my statement clear that i dont want an slc or a vr6 in my car.. im tired of people sayin it to me.. and also in my opinion a factory 1.8t car is nothin like a 1.8t with standalone and not in a mk4. another thing with all that.. there was a point where you would pay 2-3k more for a new car with a vr6 then a 1.8t and i do believe the 1.8t made more hp. maybe the vr pulled a little harder but a couple hundred bucks for a chip could easily solve that









FYI... the 1.8t has never made more hp stock than the VR of the same year... when the mk4's had the 12v VR... they were rated at 178 or 180 while the 1.8t was 150... when the 24v's came out with 200 they jumped the 1.8t up to 180. Yeah a 1.8t is more tunable and running on standalone is the only way i'd even consider swapping one into a car i owned. stock management is junk as far as i'm concerned. I really wish i could say something good about the pos 1.8t we own but i can't. Its been the most miserable headache of a vehicle i've ever owned. I'd much rather get into my mk2 that rides like a tank and sounds like a tincan on the inside. at least i know when i hit the gas the car is going to move and it will start when i get in it every morning. And believe me i'm not trying to sound like a VR6 fanboy. I was fairly happy and content with the 2.0 8v i had in my Golf... but for what i paid for the complete VR swap i coudln't pass it up so i went for it. I really like driving the Wagon and i really wish the motor would function like it suppose to but until our local dealer pulls their heads out of their ass and realises it has issues and makes an effort to fix the damn problem i'm going to hate this car... They believe if their scanners don't pull up any codes it means the car doesn't have any issues. Even after you take the 20yr veteran tech out for a spin and show him just how bad the surging issue is... he tells me all 1.8t's do it and to just live with the problem... i had to politely tell him he was a stupid ****ing idiot.


----------



## kobe82 (Dec 27, 2003)

*Re: (85Golf12v)*

thats funny you called him an idiot


----------



## aztek (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: (kobe82)*

I wouldn't trade my vr for a 1.8t


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (aztek)*

I've been reading through this thread, as I have been away from it since I started it. I think it is funny than 90% of the comments seem to be about the management. I personally agree that the management sucks, but it is not one of the things i was really taking into account when I started this thread. My biggest concern is the mechanical aspect. I have to work on so many of them for major problems at the VW shop where i work, It would just never cross my mind to buy a car with one, let alone swap one into a car as my motor of choice! 
Do you know how hard it is to tell customers that the're car with 80K on the odometer needs major servicing even though they have done 3000 mile oil changes and regular services religiously? It sucks, but we have to do it on a regular basis. I hope the FSI motor is not another time bomb, and proves to be a reliable power plant once they start seeing some miles on them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## skabaru (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_Do you know how hard it is to tell customers that the're car with 80K on the odometer needs major servicing even though they have done 3000 mile oil changes and regular services religiously? It sucks, but we have to do it on a regular basis. I hope the FSI motor is not another time bomb, and proves to be a reliable power plant once they start seeing some miles on them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









And I have seen just the opposite... (not that I am a VW or Audi tech, but I am good friends with my local Audi mechanic, and I am very involved in the chicago Audi community) and in that capacity, I have found the 1.8T to be pretty bullet proof. The sludge issue is recent, although many of us use mobil 1. We all recommend timing belt and water pump at 60K (go direct interference!). But overall, the problems I have seen at higher mileage (75K and beyond) has been the rest of the car, IE control arms, seat tracks, fuel senders, etc. The motor has few issues. I have read about mk4 era VW quality issues, so I don't know if it is an Audi/VW thing or something...
More often then not the problems I have seen have been from mods gone overboard, IE poorly tuned software, incorrect torquing of bolts, etc.


----------



## skabaru (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_My biggest concern is the mechanical aspect. I have to work on so many of them for major problems at the VW shop where i work, It would just never cross my mind to buy a car with one, let alone swap one into a car as my motor of choice! 


that being said (and I am by no means trying to downplay your experience, as you obviously wouldn't make that up)... what are the issues you have seen, so that I can keep my eyes peeled for them...


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (skabaru)*


_Quote, originally posted by *skabaru* »_
that being said (and I am by no means trying to downplay your experience, as you obviously wouldn't make that up)... what are the issues you have seen, so that I can keep my eyes peeled for them...

The best things i can recommend from my expieriences, are to make sure you do not have the plastic waterpump, pull your oilpan (Not all that fun for you passat/audi (Non TT) guys, and only run a high grade full synthetic (I prefer mobile 1). Another one we run into often is the overheating in the beetles due to lack of temp gauge (Just the "your F'ed light"", and the plastic waterpump impellers cracking.


----------



## VwCrazykid (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (patatron)*

Well then where is the why all the fuss over vr6's thread or aba 16v's, 16vt’s, vrt’s etc. These type of threads all ways have and always will just turn into a pissing contest every new wave has it's time with the aftermarket populous. I remember when people first started swapping vr's into mk2 this was in the mid 90's and everybody was ranting and raving over the 12v vr in different applications now it's just the 1.8t's turn and you have to if not respect it understand it for what it is. Heck I have a worked n/a 12v and people look at me and tell me 12v's are $h !t unless there boosted get a 24v I just look and laugh it comes with the times







soon it will be the fsi and twin-charged motors getting all the rave it is what it is I say give respect to all the motors they each have there application pros*cons. Were dub heads are we not it's all vdub love not partial don't be like some of those snobby air-cooled owners on me now


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (VwCrazykid)*

I guess its that I dont ever look at what I am going to build next based on whats trendy. I got more than enough **** from people over putting a VRT in a rabbit, and now it having people ask me why am I putting airbags on a rabbit, and not coilovers and BBS' like every other MKI out there. I look at all the motor options, and just wonder about peoples thought on the 1.8T, thats all, I would drive an 8VT, before I drove around with a 1.9T constanly worrying that some bull**** was gonna go wrong with it and cost me some serious money.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Enough with the VR6's and 1.8T's..
The Bunny with the TDI swap is the winner


----------



## steggie (Aug 12, 2004)

*Re: (MXTHOR3)*

this is an entertaining thread.
the vr6 has an extremely sexy exhaust note, compared to the garbage the 1.8t emits. the best comment i've heard about the 1.8t exhaust is "it sounds mean" from a GHL TB.
to me, it is about class vs. crass. in no way is the 1.8t smooth or polished like the vr6. 
if i had to do it over, i would have forked up the extra $$$ for the vr6 when i bought the GTI in 03. the supporting mods for the 1.8t and its power characteristics are pretty much responsible for the reason i bought my current car - 03 s2k. if you know both cars you'll understand my decision.


----------



## imaradiostar (May 4, 2002)

*Re: (steggie)*

I've driven a LOT of cars working at a euro shop- some of them pretty high end like a Dinan 535i that used to be Steve's personal car. Here's the funny thing- the coolest sounding car I've driven (and one of the most fun and daily drivable) was a red VR6 corrado. There's just something about the available torque and that exhaust note when you get on the throttle!
As to 1.8t's- we won't even change the oil in one unless you buy synthetic oil. We warn every customer that if they don't use synthetic and change regularly we can PROMISE they will have a major failure. We have an A4 in the shop right now for an engine- he was warned months ago when we put a turbo on the car but didn't change his habits. It was probably already too late but oh well...
We see lots of other problems with 1.8t's- timing belt tensioners and idlers failing, chain tensioners failing, little ****clips and brackets and covers falling apart on engines with well under 100k miles on them.
If I was building a car with maximum hp/weight in mind I'd probably use a 1.8t. I'd also make sure I set it up so I could pull the engine and overhaul it easily because it will blow up eventually.
If I wanted to enjoy and drive the car for the long term, I'd used an 8v turbo or a VR...or an all motor 16v (and religious timing belt changes!).
I wish we had naturally aspirated 20v 4 cylinder engines here...one with about 2L displacement, high compression, standalone and big cams would be pretty damn neat!
jamie


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Why all the fuss over 1.8T's? (patatron)*

I have another disaster of a 1.8T in the shop. I took some pics of some of the seals and stuff I pulled from the motor, I will put them up soon. The car is in for the T-belt and some other stuff, but now we are pulling the pan after what we have seen so far, it is some of the wors sludging I have seen so far, thick sluge has actuall managed to push itself past the front engine seals, and was baked to the front of the block. I have the pics on my camera at work, I will post them up soon!


----------



## Boostin20v (Mar 22, 2000)

Pat, can you please indicate the model years your seeing sluging on.


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Boostin20v)*

All of them, it's just the older they are (Or the more miles they have on them) the worse it is. I will try and post the sludge pics on monday when i go back to work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Boostin20v (Mar 22, 2000)

it was certainly an issue with the longitudinal (sp?) engines. never seen it with a transverse.
sounds like issues keeping to regular oil changes.


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Boostin20v)*

I have dealt with this on both styles of motor mounting equally. We have a buddy at the local VW dealer in the service dept., and he says they see the problem in cars that even have perfect records of oil changes since new through the dealer. Synthetic oil changes definately prolong this though! I cant stress the synthetic on these enough!


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Boostin20v)*

I got a few of those pics....
















This stuff had to be scrapped out of the head, the oil pan, and from behind all of the engine front seals.


----------



## 85Golf12v (Nov 27, 2005)

I wonder if running a cooler thermostat and fan temp switch would help this out. seems that the issue is with too much heat in the oil. or definately install some sort of an aftermarket oil cooler. If cars with regular maintenance are having the sludging issues there has to be something else going on to cause this...


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (85Golf12v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85Golf12v* »_I wonder if running a cooler thermostat and fan temp switch would help this out. seems that the issue is with too much heat in the oil. or definately install some sort of an aftermarket oil cooler. If cars with regular maintenance are having the sludging issues there has to be something else going on to cause this...

I have though about the oil cooler idea as well, it also looks like the effects of running hot to me as well.


----------



## Onearmedmidget (May 3, 2002)

*Re: (patatron)*

Amsoil and Mobil 1 synthetic have been in my two 1.8T cars. Both have 70000km. Both have had their waterpumps break at approx 45000km. 
I'll be changing my timing belt/tensioner/waterpump(metal) at 104000km. Hopefully I'll have a long 1.8T life. 
So far other than the waterpump both engines have been fine. Too early to tell though.


----------



## jsnVR6 (Feb 5, 2001)

*Re: (punkassjim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkassjim* »_Either your 1.8T isn't running right, or you're not very good at driving it. I've found that most folks who drive VR's all the time have no idea how to keep a 1.8T in its power band. Every time I see someone rev a 1.8T up to 7 grand, and I'm immediately thinking "idiot."
I drive my 1.8T every day to and from work, and every single day I arrive at work nearly breathless. I hopped in a VR6 vehicle tonight and went for a wind-it-out test drive, and walked away very unsatisfied.
This from a K03 owner. Ain't exactly a big turbo.


I know how to drive my cars. My 1.8T jetta with a chip went 14.3 in the 1/4. It was otherwise stock and still is.
Wizzard....I was talking about when my Corrado was just a VR swap...no turbo or anything else. When it was originally a single turbo VR it was even more fun that stock....obviously







. The VR to me is the best engine VW has ever made. It has its problems but they are far far outweighed by its possitives. Nothing gives me shivers like driving a VR at full tilt.
My new project will give me twice as many shivers as my twin turbo setup though....I can't wait.


----------



## T REDMK2GTI (Aug 12, 2005)

*Re: (JsnVR6Corrado)*

WHOA!! i better get out of here before you guys make me sell my 1.8t swap!!!







j/k i bought my swap cause i got a great deal, under 2 thousand miles on engine and i have always wanted one, my brother has a vr6t and i love it too!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## some~guy (Oct 25, 2005)

*Re: (T REDMK2GTI)*

FAST, CHEAP, RELIABLE PICK TWO BECAUSE YOU CANT HAVE ALL THREE.























LETS JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT . I WOULD ROCK BOTH BUT IF I HAD TO PICK ONE I GO VR6T. 
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF YOU DO A VR6 SWAP THEY SAY SHOULD OF DID A 1.8T
AND IF YOU DO I 1.8T SWAP THEY SAY YOU SHOULD OF DID A VR6 SWAP.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_All of them, it's just the older they are (Or the more miles they have on them) the worse it is. I will try and post the sludge pics on monday when i go back to work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









When I was working at the dealer, we saw a lot of a Passats with 60 - 70K having oil pressure problems and / or rod bearing wear. I did at least a dozen rod-bearing and / or oil pump replacements under powertrain warranty. 
One car I specifically remember came in with a rod knock, and when I dropped the pan the oil pump pickup was completely stopped up with sludged oil. ( it also had an OE VW oil filter on it) The dealer service records on the car stopped at 40K, but a couple days later the owner mysteriously showed up with a stack of oil change reciepts, all from the same place. With sequential numbers, like somebody gave her a stack of blank receipts which she filled out herself. BTW the car had well over 100K on it when it was brought in, so it may well have not had an oil change in more than 60K. 
My guess is the owners took advantage of VW's free service up through 40K, then couldn't be bothered to maintain the car after that.


----------



## imaradiostar (May 4, 2002)

*Re: (vr6swap)*

We've seen more than a few of these engines (1.8t) with rod knock, clogged oil pump screens and/or cam journals that are so dry the head locks up. People don't yet understand that they can't be maintained like an old American V8- they won't work well with cheap oil and missed oil changes!
FWIW- the cylinder head on these things flows extremely well and properly maintained, I think it's a really neat engine from a technology standpoint. I only wish people knew how to take better care of them!
It'd be neat to see if Evans coolant would make a difference on one of these engines.
jamie


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (imaradiostar)*

From what i have heard from our connetions at the dealer, this is happening to cars with regular service intervals performed. If I had one, I would definately use strait synthetic, and do 1500-2000 mile oil changes.


----------



## Fluxburn64 (Apr 9, 2005)

*Re: (patatron)*

For one, I would rather have a 2.0T or 1.8T then a vr6 for the wieght difference. I would rather have the new 2.0T engine from the mk5 then the 1.8T from the mk4. I would enjoy making my mk3 and aba 16v turbo, over a vr6 turbo. I like 4 bangers myself. So much fun to have a little engine that is fast.


----------



## dedicated2vw (Aug 31, 2004)

*Re: (Fluxburn64)*

Call me crazy but I dont think id mind the new 2.0t as well








I dont think most people would mind it


----------



## Fluxburn64 (Apr 9, 2005)

*Re: (dedicated2vw)*

Ah, I can't wait in 2-4 years when my 2.0 8v dies. Then I will be replacing it with the fsi 2.0T from the mk5. The day comes for all men, lol. I am going to buy a used porsche in a couple years, but can't let go of the dub you know. You need a really fast sedan to pick up the groceries lol. The raced out jetta grocery getter hahha.


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Fluxburn64)*

People used to say this about the 1.8T, and the ignorant still do. I hope that the 2.0 doesn't end up being as much of a piece of crap as the 1.8T.


----------



## TDIVentoDave (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: (patatron)*

I have owned 2 1.8Ts and I will never own one again.
99.5 A4 quattro - failed timing belt tensioner @ 44k
00 golf - huge sludge issues @ 70k, had entire engine flushed and still had major head oiling problems.
I loved my '95 VR GTI. No major problems and super fast. 8v turbo rabbit - reasonable $ invested, fast, and reliable for 2+ years and counting.
Now I am into building B series Hondas. Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too: Cheap, Fast, and Reliable!


----------



## DUBBINandLOVIN (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_
I do to, that's why my VR6 has a turbo!

















yeah i agree, i dont under stand all the amazement of the 1.8T some people on here seem to have...








mark


----------



## Lowjack (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (DUBBINandLOVIN)*

x-flow + StageII ATP turbo kit.... better (my opinion) than 1.8t just for the "beef factor" of the motor.... I fu%^&n pound on my xflow in the autocross car (which used to be a daily) and it hasn't so much as sneezed. Go out and hammer on a 1.8t for a few years and see where that gets ya


----------



## bcasey1234 (Aug 27, 2002)

*Re: (Lowjack)*

I own a 02 1.8T and 92 VR6. The 1.8t is nice, it's got good power (all stock), once you get used to the turbo it can be A LOT of fun too. But you'll NEVER get me to part with my VR6 Corrado. The noises it makes...the smoothness.....instant torque......







.....
As for reliablity, I'd say they both are kinda lousy. They're VWs, its par for the course.


----------



## Orph (Mar 14, 2004)

Well... I've just bought a 1,8t from an Audi A6, which failed due to sludging (poor maintenance).
It's getting rebuilt from the bottom (all seals/gaskets/bearings replaced), and I'm running standalone, so I hope I won't experience any problems... 
My reason for running 1,8t in an MKII is preference: I just don't want the vr, plus very few people have done the 1,8t in a mkII swap here. Also, the 1,8t is a fairly sivilized engine, and I'm building a driver's car, not an auto-x/drag/track monster.


----------



## Lowjack (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (Orph)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Orph* »_and I'm building a driver's car, not an auto-x/drag/track monster.

then what's wrong with the motor that's in there now? 
I think what you said is pretty silly..... I know tons of people who drive VR MK2's to drive them. I'm pretty sure that's why we're not all driving honduhs..... cuz we like cars with feeling and attitude. Most people are just scared of the VR, that's all. I'd be more scared of the 1.8t.


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Lowjack)*

What is with this irrational fear of 1.8t's anyway? Is it all because of a few badly maintained cars sludging up? Any turbo car will cook the crap out of its oil if it's driven by people who don't know any better, and by that I mean shutting it off without giving it a chance to cool off. And long service intervals will make it even worse. As for using anything but the finest synthetic oil, well that's just asking for trouble. 
The 1.8t engine isn't perfect, but then few engines are, VR6 included (Timing chain tensioners on those engines aren't exactly famous for their longevity). The fuss over 1.8t's in Europe at least comes from the fact that they were fitted in a huge range of cars in outputs from 150hp-240hp and are now available very cheaply. Even the lowliest 150hp engine can be chipped to 200hp, and with such a small turbo, the torque curve is all but flat from 1500rpm up. 
Yes a VR6 sounds better, but you're comparing apples and oranges there, I mean a VR6 sounds crap next to an Alfa Romeo V6, which sounds crap next to a Ferrari V8 on full attack, which in turn sounds naff compared to an Aston Martin V12. 
If you like your VR6, then great, but don't lay into other engines just because you have had a few bad experiences with poorly maintained engines. I've had 4 1.8t's pass through my hands, and the only one with sludging of any kind has been the AEB I'm currently preparing to install into another mk1 Scirocco. I can forgive this sludging on 2 grounds, 1: because it's from a '95 A4 and so is about the oldest/earliest 1.8t you can get, and 2: because it's 100k + miles. I'll de-sludge it, and as it'll be following a strict maintainance schedule, I'm sure it'll be fine. 
The 1.8t is pretty lightweight, for the power it's capable of, and is relatively easy to install in just about any shape of watercooled VW. You've built a VR6 mk1, so you know that it's not a job without a fair amount of fabrication. I'm not saying there isn't some fabrication in a 1.8t install, but it can be as simple or as complex as you or your budget allows.
my 2c


----------



## erhodub (Dec 24, 2002)

*Re: (patatron)*

haha what an interesting thread. as far as whats better, its really all in whos car it is and how they go about doing it. if i had acess to a 1.8t swap i may have put it in my rabbit. but since i could easily get my hands on a vr6, i put that in there. its true that it has been a LOT of work fabbing up motor mounts and what not, and sure a 1.8t swap would have gone in a bit easier, but a vr6 is what i have. not to mention the amazingly satisfying sound that comes out of these motors that a 1.8t could never recreate. and as far as the sound of boosting, patatron pretty obviously shows how that can be taken care of. sure you could start with a 1.8t and already have boost yada yada yada. but if you start with a vr6 and add boost you are one heck of a step further ahead. but all in all threre is no shame in having a vr6 OR a 1.8t swapped in a light weight older volkswagen.
BTW. you mentioned 1/4 miles times pat. what are you getting out of that thing anyway? what do you think i should expect out of mine with basic mods(chip, intake, exhaust)??
-Troy
a pic of my vr6 mk1 project for good measure.


----------

