# megasquirt cranking/warmup?



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

I could really use some help with the startup/warmup settings.
If anyone has an 8v on mega squirt or even a 16v could you post your cranking, warmup, etc settings. 
I can get it started it just takes a lot of throttle and wont hold an idle till the engine is up to temp. No settings that have been tried get it much better than it is now








thanks -Chris


_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 10:53 PM 8-21-2007_


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

p.s. here are my current settings. i stole a bunch of them from timbo but they didn't seem to make much of an improvement.


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## thebigmacd (Aug 17, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Based on my extremely recent discussion with WolfGTI (I am trying to solve a similar problem) he said run the ASE for at least 15 seconds. Mine is set at 18 seconds right now.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Turn your cranking rpm down to about 300


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (gdoggmoney)*

In cranking/prime make sure your 160F bin matches your idle pulsewidth and then going from there follow about 10-20% increase per bin. More the lower the temp.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

sorry if I sound dumb but how do I know my idle pulsewidth?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

also, your Warm table looks very skewed to me. Colder the temp = more fuel.
You table jumps all around and 170% fuel WUE seems excessive.
My Warm up table (Page 9) for my 8v G60 looks like this:
-40 = 180
-20 = 170
-0- = 165
20 = 160
40 = 152
60 = 143
80 = 135
100 = 128
130 = 125
160 = 100
and as Paul mentioned, check your PW at idle and base your Crank/prime table on percentages of that. You currently have a PW of 5 ms at 160. You can verify the idle PW in Megatune or in a log when the car is at full temp.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Thanks ill def tinker with that stuff


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_You can verify the idle PW in Megatune or in a log when the car is at full temp.


Bingo http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 5ms sounds high, probably closer to 2-3ms.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

your pulse width *WAS* at 2.4....5 is too high....paul this is the "one"








chris you changed a bunch of stuff or is this what happened AFTER my setup was deleted off?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

I lost everything you did







I saved a .msq and it was all 0's basically corrupted itself. But i couldn't get it started at all after I got home

im just getting frustrated with this










_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 5:21 PM 8-22-2007_


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Hang in there dude. This stuff IS frustrating, but it feels great when you grasp it and gain control. 
I"m going through the same ish right now. My car has always driven well, dyno'd well, but those cranking/ase and other low speed manors have never been dialed to anywhere close to stock. I always laugh at how easy my CIS car starts vs my MSnSe car


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

The warmup is the hardest part and it's mostly just guessing a few things and seeing what happens. Unfortunately it takes a while to tweak in as you really have to wait a LONG time for the motor to really cool down and evaluate the changes. 
Shame you corrupted the msq.. does Josh have it saved for you at the shop or anything?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

nope! i used HIS laptop.....mine was goofy or something....
so i guess all is gone from what i/we did....


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_nope! i used HIS laptop.....mine was goofy or something....
so i guess all is gone from what i/we did....









yikes! i always like save 2 copies of stuff before i make changes because im so scared of that happening








good luck man, ive been slowing trying to fix my WUE/ASE and it is a long process since you dont get too much time to make the changes and see a difference before the car is too warm. also doesnt help that i dont hardly ever drive the damn thing


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Ive learned to now check my saved files before I go changing stuff around.overwriting whats on the ecu. Im just a fan of learning stuff the hardest way possible sometimes I guess.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Balls, sucks to lose all that work. Honestly, when you get a chance, post a success story up on msruns.com and attach your msq. Hard to lose once it's on a server. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

one I get a good config I will gladly whore it out haha


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

What size injectors are you running and what is your req fuel?
I'll see if I can help you, I am about to wire around my charging problem so I can start seriously tuning idle fuel and such.
I have a LC-1 wideband and I am running the stock CIS vacuum advance distributor with VR6 injectors. It's a ported 1.8l JH motor with a euro cam and a nice header.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (gdoggmoney)*

i believe it....
2.0L bottom end with counter flow head...270 something cam...19lb injectors, digi 2 fpr. 2.5bar i believe


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

That is pretty much what I am running, but a 1.8 and milder cam with a head that is ported to death.
Stock digi 2 FPR is 3.0bar, same I am running.
I'm wiring in my momentary toggle to excite the alternator now.
Stupid factory VW charging circuit










_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_i believe it....
2.0L bottom end with counter flow head...270 something cam...19lb injectors, digi 2 fpr. 2.5bar i believe


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Yeah what josh said, I have an aba bottom end, digi II injectors, stock digi fpr, 276 web cam .450 lift, eurosport header port matched head, and ported intake mani.

my req fuel is 16.2
I got my wideband installed and all wired up tonight, it seems to be AMZING compared to my old sensor lol. I plan to do a lot of messing with tuning tomorrow, it got dark out there so I called it quits for today.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

I have a set of g60 green tops but it doesn't appear I will have any need for more fuel than these 19 pounders can provide.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

wait...you have G60 injectors???
you said digi 2??


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Yeah those are a bit bigger.. also watch the rated vs actual pressure as well when computing the req_fuel. You need to put in the ACTUAL flow at the pressure you're running or the whole map is scaled wrong.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

yea...i thought (when i had it) that they were digi2 19lb injectors.....


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

It'll be fine until you go to a bigger injector it just won't scale up right if you use req_fuel to do it.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

no I have biger injectors in a box at my house. Sorry if i was confusing, there are 19 pounders in there right now. 
I got it running a bit better this weekend, timbo came over and gave me some pointers and stuff. Then I got the afr's heading to where I want them, and the accel enrichments pretty dialed so I can rev match and stuff. 
the cranking, and warmup didnt really improve at alll though I ran out of time to mess with it though. The car doesnt really seem to want to idle leaner than 12.1 either. 
When you had it josh what afr was it idling at?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

idling with the lm-1 on it was like 15's...


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

hrmmm sounds like I still have a bit more tinkering then. I am running a cat though, either way if I get the car up to you the end of the week think you can inspect it and tinker with tuning a bit more?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

yup yup tinker with it and see what will happen


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

when i tried to have it idle that lean it was just dying out, I set it to +10 advance around idle. So i dunno I had had enough for this weekend though I had to stop


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_ The car doesnt really seem to want to idle leaner than 12.1 either. 
When you had it josh what afr was it idling at?

Are you talking about when cold or at full operating temp? Cold, I can see that, but at op temp then you should be able to have that thing idling at stoich. Especially with 19# injectors (regardless or High Res or the Std -extra code).
- make sure your Megatune is showing what your wideband is reporting! If not, then you have a config error or ground offset, etc.
- double check all of your settings, Inj open time, Ign Timing, etc. 
Are you doing Batch, Alternating injection, etc? What are your current Page 1 settings?
S


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Im talking at full temp it seems to idle best rich. The wideband is working properly. 
I double checked my ignition timing, its dead on, and my inj open time is 1.0
im doing simultaneous injection, even fire


_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 1:05 PM 8-27-2007_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Higher idle quality with richer mixtures is normal. 13-13.5:1 are normal non emissions idle AFRs. The factory can lean out more because the PWM idle valve can take some of the 'lump' out. 
You might want to switch to twice the squirts and alternating as well (keeps same final req_fuel), that'll smooth things a bit more.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Ill def try that. the cam I have has a huge amount of overlap too it never idled well under 1200 on cis


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_Ill def try that. the cam I have has a huge amount of overlap too it never idled well under 1200 on cis

ahhh, yea that makes a difference,


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

It did idle pretty darn well after josh had it so im sure improvements can be made


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

I am still fighting electrical gremlins. I am moving my battery to the trunk and running MS of the battery directly and grounding the sensors different to avoid sensor noise I am getting argh.
I also discovered after logging resistance values on my bosch CTS it was still off in MS causing me to not be able to tune idle stuff at all.
Got a GM sensor with pigtail here and an adapter for the digifant neck on the way. 
This has been a 2 year project now


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

all my sensors are pretty noise free except for the coolant temp jumps around a bit, but nothing that should effect much


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

I followed Pauls advise of making the temp dependant pw at 160 the same as the idle pw and added 10% to each cooler bin. While it didn't solve anything in an absolute sense, the car now starts after a few tries as opposed to before. Definitely an improvement, which in my experience is tough to come by on cold start tuning. It really IS the hardest part.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Im contemplating throwing a stock cam back in to see just how hard the cam I have in there now is making this for me.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Can you post the ENTIRE details of the setup?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

aba 2.0 bottom end
eurosport header
cleaned up jh head no major porting
tt adjustable cam gear (shows +3 advance but I measured the cam and its really dead center)
2.25 throughout exhaust w tt high flow cat (modded to be true 2.25)
web racing 276 cam .450 lift
digiII injectors and fpr
digiII dizzy w aba gear, and dizzy hall sensor + tt adapter bushing
stock rabbit icm
ver 2.2 ecu msns modded for spark by patatron
passat auto tb using tps for accel enrichment
patatron wiring diagram - the idle valve
pulling power for the relays from the orig fuel pump relay socket on the fuse panel 
innovative lc1 using analog out 2 for the ms 
ill post a .msq in a half hour when I go to class and am on my laptop

_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 10:37 AM 8-29-2007_


_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 10:38 AM 8-29-2007_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

The cam is big but not that big. What's your idle vacuum?
You might want to PM WolfGTI as he has some pretty good warmup settings when he had the ITB'd ABA. You'd just have to scale some things that are in ms for your injector size.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

it idles at about 60 - 65kpa 
the lowest i see is 15kpa and the highest is 105-110
heres the current map im using, I still need to scale the spark table map value to match my fuel but it works ok as is. Its also running rich under partial throttle cruise I just need to lean it out in the middle a bit more.
http://www.holcosales.com/imag...s.msq


_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 11:54 AM 8-29-2007_


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

i know this is a post about warmup, but ill mention some things i caught on a quick view of your msq that may aid you in speeding up your tuning efforts.
your ve table could use some smoothing to make driveability better while you log.
you have your AE turned off, and the values are pretty rich - especially at low tps rates. increase your decel rates to around 90% for now.
dont be afraid to increase your ASE by a bunch where youre currently starting at. try fixed then decay under 100. maked the fixed time about 75% of your ase value.
once you get your ve table dialed in youll be able to remove a bunch of WUE.
that kind of stuff worked well on my 16v that idled at 65kpa. from your specs i dont see any reason you would have a super hard time getting it going well. it just takes time to get used to what changes to make and when to make them...


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

My accel enrichment is definitely turned on, but yeah it needs some adjusting. 
im still kind of roughing in my ve map its still pretty rich most of the table.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_My accel enrichment is definitely turned on, but yeah it needs some adjusting. 

ok then. when i opened it up, it said the threshold was like 49.5 v/s or something like that - which youd never see. so i figured you set it like that to turn it off.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Well worked on the car a bit tonight, still not making any warmup progress, and still couldnt get it to hold an idle.
So i decided to swap the stock cam back in. deffinitely ran a lot closer to other peoples settings, made more normal vac etc. But still had really sporadic idle.
decided to investigate farther so I pulled the fuel rail.
every one of the injector cups I had torqued tightly had backed out to barely finger tight. That could explain some of the idle issues (read large vac leak) So i put rtv on all of the threads on the cups and put them back in. It was dark at this point so I called it quits.


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: megasquirt cranking/warmup? (chrisbmx68)*

Here are my start-up values on my daily driver, 8K miles on MS with 5K of them on a crossflow swap with Autotech 270 cam and G60 24lb injectors. 










_Modified by Wraith04 at 11:25 PM 9-2-2007_


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

those settings look pretty similar to thebase maps on patatrons forum, but ill try em out wth at this point


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

I can give you my msq. and you can plug it in and see what happens. My car starts on the first crank, no idle valve but will idle on it's own if the ambient temp is above 50* or if it's colder it will idle on it's own after about ten seconds, great drivability around town and highway, got 32.7 mpg on my trip to Arkansas last weekend with a .89 5th gear. What is your required fuel and what does your VE table look like? How about your target AFR's?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

im about to give up. the car just broke down at the end of my street and refuses to start now. for every half step i take forward i take 5 back its a loosing battle.


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## jasonknezo (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

hang in there bud, it always is shatty before its better. That car is awesome, just needs to go back to josh or have some more details posted on here for paul and the others to help you troubleshoot


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jasonknezo)*

Check the basics, MT reading RPM? LED's blinking? Spark?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Im was real angry earlier I took a break and thought about what could have happened. 
It seems to be a fueling issue. I put the big cam back in and fixed the injector cup sealing issue, and reshimmed it spot on. It then idled much better than before and seemed to be running well. But i had to change my req fuel to much higher than it was before for some reason, and every time i started the car it would randomly be real lean or rich. 
Then i was like it seems to be idling well and running decent I think ill take it around the block. Got to the end of my street and came to a stop and it just died out. I figured no biggie just stalled but then it wouldnt start.
So i towed it back with my moms car, and came up with a theory.
I think the injector harness is messed up, or one injector is bad/something along those lines.
I get fuel at the fpr, so I just need to pull the rail with the injectors and see if they are all firing.
I already checked the pugs individually, and im still getting spark all around.
Long story short. Physically the motor is ok, the megasquirt lights up and communicates with the laptop as usual (re flashed the firmware to be safe) but bam all of a sudden no start. So tomorrow im gonna check the injectors out.


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

I picked up a set of G60 injectors for my crossflow but they had sat so long they were clogged. I took each of them individually and cycled them with a 9v battery, then I took a length of hose and clamped it on the output side, poured some fuel injector cleaner in the hose then pressurized it with air and cycled them with the battery again and back purged them. Cleaned them all out and they work fine. Check your injector harness for places it could be grounding out and hanging the injectors open. Read your earlier posts and saw it idles at 60-65 kpa?Does it idle that high when it does get warmed up?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Well i just checked fuel pressure at the rail its 120psi
the injectors all appear to be firing, and I tried 2 different sets of injectors
it was idling at 60-65kpa before today. However today and after I sealed the injector cups with rtv it was idling at 40-45kpa and fluctuating less but then it crapped out totally. 
my fuel injector harness appears to be fine and I soldered everything I could when i made it and wraped the harness in hockey tape. 
Im really at a loss as to what to do next. Car has spark at the coil and the plugs, fuel at the injectors, and 180 - 185 compression in all cyls 



_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 12:08 AM 9-4-2007_


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

120psi seems a bit excessive, 40-45kpa sounds much better but still sounds like there is a vacuum leak.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

120psi before the fuel rail, I think thats about right for a healthy cis pump. Either way its making pressure so lack of fuel isnt the issue.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

IM prety sure my toother cam gear that bolts to the crank should have a key one intead of being compltelty flush and round








p.s. 45 psi perfect at the end of the fuel rail I figured out how to test it. 
so HOPEUFLLY the valves arnt all bent like last time something like this happened. Hard to tell at this point I think I Have another gear somewhere so I will see if it starts with that. 
-Chris


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

car fired right up with a new timing belt gear. Thank god still not 100% no valves are not bent but it runs so im going to hope they arnt.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

When my 2 year MS project was able to be started or attempted to start and idle, after fixing my vacuum leaks I had a 40-50kpa idle.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (gdoggmoney)*

my itb'd 16v idled around 50 kpa, now its around 30-40 with my SRI and mustang 70mm tb...
most importantly you need to have your fuel map tuned in pretty close to dialed and then the enrichements can be tweaked. if you fuss with them before having the rest of the map dialed, you are just wasting time cause you will have to do the same thing again downt he road


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_
most importantly you need to have your fuel map tuned in pretty close to dialed and then the enrichements can be tweaked. if you fuss with them before having the rest of the map dialed, you are just wasting time cause you will have to do the same thing again downt he road









Times eleventybillion. I wouldn't touch ONE enrichment, cold start, warmup, accel, etc without the main fuel map at least 95% dialed.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

I think there may have been underlying problems before with the timing belt and vac leaks. Im going to kind of start from scratch again when i have time .


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_I think there may have been underlying problems before with the timing belt and vac leaks. Im going to kind of start from scratch again when i have time . 


I am on time #3 of starting from scratch. MS rules.






















I keep wondering, if I did not do drugs would this be easier, or if I did not do drugs, would I have even attempted to do this.


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (gdoggmoney)*

Quantify your statement. Was the car a running and driving vehicle before the MS install? I guess I a little dumbfounded by the amount of MS installs that don't work properly on the Vortex and I'd like to find a common ground as to why.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

The car ran on cis, and never idled under 1200rpm, nor handled changes in barometric pressure well, along with running lean at high rpm. As in the car barely ran if it was raining. Anyway
I managed to snap a valve, destroy a piston, and rebuild the whole motor. And while the motor was out put in the mega squirt parts I had been collecting. The car has been running off and on now for a few months, but I only recently got a wide band. Also id say in the last few weeks ive finally grasped what most of the settings actually do and when they are needed. 
The learning curve is just a bit steeper than most expect I think. Also the most current problem was 100% not megasquirt related in the end


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Here is the problem with MS. 
Megasquirt was conceived as a DIY, self-tuned, self-built, fuel injection ECU for people that have a grasp on the electronics side of it more-so than the mechanical side. It requires the ability to read, think, and be able to implement those thoughts before it becomes a reality. The problem with most people is that they expect a plug-and-play system that is as easy to install as a set of wheels, therein lies the problem. The majority of people buying MS aren't capable of diagnosing their car problems let alone installing/tuning an ECU to control the fueling/spark system of a car they plan on driving. 
MS is not that tough to figure out if you spend more time researching it rather than just expecting it to work out and figure it out when you get it in your hands. The problem with seeing the results on the Vortex is that it looks easy. I printed the Megamanual over two years ago in anticipation for the install on what was a Chevy at the time and in that time period changed to a VW but I read adn re-read it several times before jumping in.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

I bought my first MS board in 2002 I believe under one of the first group buys. To this day, I'm still learning about it and what it can do. If you expect that, and allow ample time to do so, you'll be fine.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

*Re: (Wraith04)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wraith04* »_Quantify your statement. Was the car a running and driving vehicle before the MS install? I guess I a little dumbfounded by the amount of MS installs that don't work properly on the Vortex and I'd like to find a common ground as to why.


Yes, however I had blockage in my fuel distributor which when the plate rose not enough fuel came so hello lean city, bang bang sputter, engine trying to jump through the hood.
Had a new head prepped that was able to take the digifant cups and have a digi rail mounted up, got MS in etc.
gotta leave work, will make an epic post shortly of my megasquirt trials and tribulations.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

woo woo car finally seems to be working semi proper. idles at a reasonable afr(14.5), and 1000-1100rpm. catches first crank, still needs a little gas till warm but I'm getting there. 
thanks for all the help so far


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## wyn1984gti (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

see that chris, a little love and she will treat you better


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

heh i love her plenty, time and money is usually the issue.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

What was most out of whack?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

the firmware on my ecu, and the fact that my crank pulley had no key in it any more. Also large vac leak from injector cups. 
I reflashed the newest code started from scratch, and re timed the motor with a new pulley. The odd starting issues went away, and changing values actually does something now.
oddly the req fuel had to be increased a fair bit with the new firmware compared to my old map.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_my crank pulley had no key in it any more.

i had the same problem about the time i put my first set of itb's on. took me like 2 months to realize it was mechanical and not my tuning. glad you got it figured out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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