# Remove the metal intake dividers or keep them in ??



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Well i am about to swap to the RS4 injectors and i have the chance to remove the metal intake dividers in the process.A lot is written about the flaps and side effects from removing them, but what about
the metal dividers ??Has anyone removed just those ? Did you see the same side effects people
see with the flaps ?? Is there ANYTHING to be gained by removing them or am i gonna get into
trouble ??

Please post your thoughts....


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

There are a ton of ecu calibrations in the ecu in regards to the position of the intake flapper motor. So.....take that as you will.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> There are a ton of ecu calibrations in the ecu in regards to the position of the intake flapper motor. So.....take that as you will.


I understand that, but that refers to the FLAPS position which i will not be removing.

The question is if i remove the DIVIDERS from the head, will that effect the change in flow
the calibrations are written for ??I mean flow will still be directed upwards or downwards by the
flaps, but i don't know how significant a change will be without the dividers...


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

It seems redundant doesnt it? the flaps create turbulence to help airflow into the cylinder... but what the hell do the dividers do?

Id say remove them and see just what the affect is, or call some tuning companies and see what they have to say.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Krieger said:


> It seems redundant doesnt it? the flaps create turbulence to help airflow into the cylinder... but what the hell do the dividers do?
> 
> Id say remove them and see just what the affect is, or call some tuning companies and see what they have to say.


I'm pretty sure the position of the flaps relative to the dividers is what creates the turbulence.

JHines is a VW tech and runs the REVO K04 file without the dividers and mentions that he has no issues in his K04 thread.

Dave


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

crew219 said:


> I'm pretty sure the position of the flaps relative to the dividers is what creates the turbulence.
> 
> JHines is a VW tech and runs the REVO K04 file without the dividers and mentions that he has no issues in his K04 thread.
> 
> Dave


So what are you trying to say ?

Cause these two sentences contradict each other. 

The way i see it (hence the question) is that the dividers are an important part
of the mechanism (if they could they would probably extend movement to those also),
and removing them would probably "lessen" the final effect but not completely
remove it ??? 

I also have the AXX engine that i suspect has the stratified function, and i am afraid
i might be messing that up and then going in circles trying to find what is wrong
with my engine....

I need some of the professionals to step in with their views.

I know APR removes them for example (but do they also remove the flaps ??) and compensate
in the software for that.Do they really make that much of a difference ??


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

GolfRS what is your ecu partnumber? id be interested in seeing this if you say it actually runs strat mode. I can pull it off VAG flash CD and take a looksee.

I will read more into the actual effects of the calibration when i get a moment.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> GolfRS what is your ecu partnumber? id be interested in seeing this if you say it actually runs strat mode. I can pull it off VAG flash CD and take a looksee.
> 
> I will read more into the actual effects of the calibration when i get a moment.


Ohhhh now that would be interesting !!! 

Here you go: 

Part No *SW*:* 1K0 907 115 HW: 1K0 907 115*

Let's see what you can find. :thumbup:


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

GolfRS said:


> Ohhhh now that would be interesting !!!
> 
> Here you go:
> 
> ...


Do you know your software number? 

I take it you are not from US? I recall "rest of world" had that part number, was first 2.0tfsi's to hit market yes?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> Do you know your software number?
> 
> I take it you are not from US? I recall "rest of world" had that part number, was first 2.0tfsi's to hit market yes?


That is correct.Mine is a 2006 model and was one of the last ones to receive the
AXX engine.

My software version is 070 (last update)

P.S. I believe there were also some A3 early models that reached the U.S. and had the
AXX engine code (and i imagine the same ECU). Maybe that could help your research ?


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

GolfRS said:


> That is correct.Mine is a 2006 model and was one of the last ones to receive the
> AXX engine.
> 
> My software version is 070 (last update)
> ...


Yep, let me see if i can dig up a .bin or get one from one of my friends.


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

GolfRS

I have v 0070 software version: 1037387570

Sound right? Need ori? PM me i can send it to you.


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

Supported modes-

Homogeneous(LSB)(MSB)
Homogeneous lean(LSB)
Homogeneous split(MSB)
Homogeneous knock detection(LSB)(MSB)


This works on bit position, you have a C1h = 11000001b in your file. I don't know if its read MSB or LSB in this instance. Here is what i find above if your file matches what i posted before this.

Clarity is found?


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

RaraK is *THE* man :thumbup:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> Supported modes-
> 
> Homogeneous(LSB)(MSB)
> Homogeneous lean(LSB)
> ...


Does that prove i have stratified function or not ?? 

I am still on Chapter 1 on MED9.1 programming..... :laugh:


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

Strictly Homogeneous mode GolfRS assuming your ecu is the same as the one i posted above. if you ever get a read out of your .bin i can tell you how to find out!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> Strictly Homogeneous mode GolfRS assuming your ecu is the same as the one i posted above. if you ever get a read out of your .bin i can tell you how to find out!


Ok cool !!! 

Thanks man. :thumbup:


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

Well even more info towards this.

Only very early GDI motors(not just VW) ran stratified mode. apparently there were issues running the stratified mode between different manufacturers. ultra lean burn mode wasnt supported b/c valve material and injector capabilities. I found this info in GM literature as well as some VW literature. 

The only VW stratified mode i found was for cat heating as well, it doesnt look like the 2.0fsi motor ever ran full stratitifed modes during normal driving at all.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> Well even more info towards this.
> 
> Only very early GDI motors(not just VW) ran stratified mode. apparently there were issues running the stratified mode between different manufacturers. ultra lean burn mode wasnt supported b/c valve material and injector capabilities. I found this info in GM literature as well as some VW literature.
> 
> The only VW stratified mode i found was for cat heating as well, it doesnt look like the 2.0fsi motor ever ran full stratitifed modes during normal driving at all.


Interesting...

So can you explain the change in piston design in the later models from a crown to a done ?

So far the idea was the crown piston was helping turbulence and mixture at stratified modes,
but that seems to be false from what you are saying.

I know the crown pistons were forged and the dome ones cast, but material change
cannot account for the piston shape change...or no ?

Here's a pic that was posted some time ago in this forum and i happened to store....


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

im not too familiar with the piston design changes GolfRS however heres what i know. What i posted is on par with piston design.

Like i said the posted info is general, not VW specific.

I am no engineer by any means either! 


*So far the idea was the crown piston was helping turbulence and mixture at stratified modes,
but that seems to be false from what you are saying.*

Crown piston = potential use of stratified modes depending on design, do you have actual pictures of this?

dome pistons = are you referring to a "standard" piston design in normal FI engines? If so i would find homogeneous mode to be appropriate for this design. 

are crown pistons in your motor?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> im not too familiar with the piston design changes GolfRS however heres what i know. What i posted is on par with piston design.
> 
> Like i said the posted info is general, not VW specific.
> 
> ...


First of all don't take things personally.We are just discussing. 
I understand you are not an engineer...neither am i !!! 

Yes i have the crown pistons in my engine and so far my understanding was that this was
due to the engine's function. I later on learned the change from forged pistons to cast was
to eliminated piston slap and increased oil consumption, but why the change in form ??

Here are both pistons (both are from 2.0T FSI engines, the crown ones from AXX and the
dome ones from BWA,BPY and later)

Crown pistons (my actual engine btw)










Dome pistons










(not mine and aftermarket, but the same exact design..)


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

Why the change? who knows, i guess gotta hear it from VW to know for sure. 

What we discussed makes sense to me, so i guess we can roll with that for now :laugh:


----------



## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> Why the change? who knows, i guess gotta hear it from VW to know for sure.
> 
> What we discussed makes sense to me, so i guess we can roll with that for now :laugh:


ALL US spec. 2.0FSI engines I've been into to re-ring have had the flap-top pistons in them. All have been engine code BPY and I've done lots varying from 2005-production up until 2009. And you had dome-top from the factory in your GTI? What engine code?

As for the flaps, I have a 2006 GLI(built in 2005), so it's one of the EARLY BPY engines. I took the dividers out in the head with my last cleaning about 1.5 months ago. I've since put 8K or so miles on the car and have seen no adverse effects. No true gains, but no running conditions that effected engine either. The only reason I did it was to see what the buildup would look like(if different after 20K) when I tear it back down. Seems all the engines I tear down have TONS of buildup mainly on the top section of the ports since that is what gets the airflow all the time. So if by distributing the airflow over the entire port will reduce the buildup some, it'll benefit. Yet at the same time, I left the flaps in the manifold and left the IMRC hooked up properly, so the flaps will still create turbulence for the airflow coming in. 

I'm not looking for any power gains, just seeing what happens. And as stated, I'm REVO STG 3 K04 file with RS4 injectors. So I have stumbling when it's really cold out, but that's my damn injectors, not the flaps. It's always done that!!!
-J. Hines


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

jhines_06gli said:


> ALL US spec. 2.0FSI engines I've been into to re-ring have had the flap-top pistons in them. All have been engine code BPY and I've done lots varying from 2005-production up until 2009. And you had dome-top from the factory in your GTI? What engine code?
> 
> As for the flaps, I have a 2006 GLI(built in 2005), so it's one of the EARLY BPY engines. I took the dividers out in the head with my last cleaning about 1.5 months ago. I've since put 8K or so miles on the car and have seen no adverse effects. No true gains, but no running conditions that effected engine either. The only reason I did it was to see what the buildup would look like(if different after 20K) when I tear it back down. Seems all the engines I tear down have TONS of buildup mainly on the top section of the ports since that is what gets the airflow all the time. So if by distributing the airflow over the entire port will reduce the buildup some, it'll benefit. Yet at the same time, I left the flaps in the manifold and left the IMRC hooked up properly, so the flaps will still create turbulence for the airflow coming in.
> 
> ...



Hmmm...When you say "flat top" pistons you mean like these ??










If so there are THREE piston designs in the TFSI and that is starting to explain why things are so different regarding injector spray and side effects....

This is getting complicated.... :banghead:

Once again i have zero ill effects from the RS4's


----------



## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Yea.......the US spec pistons are like the picture you posted.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

jhines_06gli said:


> Yea.......the US spec pistons are like the picture you posted.


That's really interesting now....

Always thought the U.S. cars had BWA dome pistons...

No wonder things are all screwed up with spray patterns, cold starts, flap deletes
and smoking at WOT.... :screwy:


----------



## 07wolfsburg (Mar 7, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Dome pistons


My 08 BPY had these 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

07wolfsburg said:


> My 08 BPY had these
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ehhh ??

WTF ??? :what:

So what's going on now ?


----------



## peppa (Apr 17, 2009)

remove the metal DIVIDERS and you get better throttle response, but lower ur mpg a bit.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

jhines_06gli said:


> ALL US spec. 2.0FSI engines I've been into to re-ring have had the flap-top pistons in them. All have been engine code BPY and I've done lots varying from 2005-production up until 2009. And you had dome-top from the factory in your GTI? What engine code?


Are you sure?

JC's car: (domed piston)










BobG's car: (domed piston)










I have never seen a single picture of a 2.0t with flat top pistons.

Dave


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

crew219 said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> JC's car: (domed piston)
> 
> ...


Come to think of it....i haven't seen one either... :sly:


----------



## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

Those are the "Flat" pistons I'm talking about. They are mostly flat, have the 2 valve reliefs and the small dish in the center. Sorry if it confused you when I said the ones posted above. It was from my phone and I didn't have the other picture showing. 
-J. Hines


----------



## kevin160 (Nov 16, 2009)

07wolfsburg said:


> My 08 BPY had these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My 06 BPY has these. Just took them out.


----------



## White_A3 (Feb 27, 2009)

So its ideal to have these removed?


----------



## viziers (Jun 22, 2008)

Hey all, here is a thread that you might be interested in concerning Piston Types used in these cars....


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...n-present-and-past-red-T-and-SIlver-T-threads




vizi


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

viziers said:


> Hey all, here is a thread that you might be interested in concerning Piston Types used in these cars....
> 
> 
> http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...n-present-and-past-red-T-and-SIlver-T-threads
> ...



Cars mentioned in the thread seem to be all pre 2006 and that is when production of the AXX engine ceased, to be replace by the BWA engine in Europe.

AFAIK the first A3 models were imported in the U.S. long before the launch of the GTI, and hence 
probably had the AXX engine (or equivalent of) that had the crowned pistons.

And to respond to one of the comments in the thread, as discussed previously, the crown pistons are
considered to be fully forged as opposed to the dome pistons that are cast (that could explain the piston failures)....


----------



## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

little late to the party, but...

I noticed a pretty significant difference in cold starts when I (forgot) to put the dividers back in.

Only change along with that was a slightly thicker headgasket.

But the cold starts got quite abit worse *without* the dividers.

Now maybe its possibly RS4's injectors multiply this, I dunno.

Next time my intake is off Im gonna take the rest of the flappers out. I cant imagine the cold starts getting any worse. I dont drive the car in the winter anyway so its mostly a non issue for me.

Just putin' my info out there.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

I think what you mean is that the "cold start" is bad when the engine is in dual injection mode for catalyst heating. After that 10-20 second period, the car is 100% smooth even if it is still at the elevated cold idle of 1200rpms. 

Dave


----------



## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

crew219 said:


> I think what you mean is that the "cold start" is bad when the engine is in dual injection mode for catalyst heating. After that 10-20 second period, the car is 100% smooth even if it is still at the elevated cold idle of 1200rpms.
> 
> Dave


well yeah I guess.

The car hard starts worse than it used to and it almost cant be driven until the "dual injection mode" as you call it turns off. This was always there with the rs4's but definitely more pronounced now. 
:thumbup:


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

loudgli said:


> well yeah I guess.
> 
> The car hard starts worse than it used to and it almost cant be driven until the "dual injection mode" as you call it turns off. This was always there with the rs4's but definitely more pronounced now.
> :thumbup:


You should see if your tuner can delete the dual injection mode.


----------



## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

crew219 said:


> You should see if your tuner can delete the dual injection mode.


switching to maestro in the coming weeks, so ill research that then. thx


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

AFAIK double injection would only take place in a stratified mode, correct me if im wrong.

No cars run stratified mode in USA after 2006 for SURE. The more i looked at some maps in these
ecu's the more i realized that the mode isnt supporte due to the ecu not even having some of the 
stratified mode maps anymore after 2006.



More info i kinda pieced together over some reading and stuff lately.
Lighting the fire on the fuel injector debate.


RS4 pistons, and early 2.0tfsi pistons = crown type, right?

RS4 injectors + crown type pistons make more sense to me. Why?
After seeing RS4 injector spray pattern from the AWE bench test it makes sense. Crown is 
To enhance "tumble" and "swirl". RS4 injector is of a design to create a swirl when 
it is injected(design of tip) Spray angle must be proper of course, and the crown design
may play part of this to help "center it up" with its high crown to the center of combustion.

Stock/S3 injector debate, with domed pistons works great. Why?
This is becuase the injector does not create a swirl in itself, its a cone shape, cone shape
is relying on the dome of the piston and airflow to "tumble" the fuel and keep it into a centralized
cloud. This style injector should work fine with either piston in my mind.

TSI injectors, newer generation AFAIK, uses a ~6 hole spray pattern.
More efficient spray pattern, more fuel can be delivered, better design overall and most DI motor
utilize an injector like this in production now, not just VAG. These injectors require a higher
potential fuel pressure, hence why TSI's run much higher fuel pressure and utilize a different HPFP
setup. 


Ok, dead horse got kicked again. but figured i would throw this out there and hope someone has something to 
contribute to my totally made up in my own mind point of view. I did do some research on DI above an beyond
VAG to contribute to the statements i have made though


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

RaraK69 said:


> AFAIK double injection would only take place in a stratified mode, correct me if im wrong.
> 
> No cars run stratified mode in USA after 2006 for SURE. The more i looked at some maps in these
> ecu's the more i realized that the mode isnt supporte due to the ecu not even having some of the
> ...


As i already mentioned (and CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi who just likes to hate bashed me in the "other" forum) the AXX engine was terminated late 2005.Mine is an Aug 2005 production and was one of the last.So i will stick with my idea about the difference in combustion even if it is not that attractive to some....

Now for the piston/injector debate...my idea was also like yours that a more "linear" spray pattern would hit the crown piston in a way that would cause it to swirl hence enhancing combustion.
The only problem with "our" idea is the fact my engine came from the factory with the same "A" version injectors (for the factory K03) that were also later used in the BWA version of the engine that
had the dome pistons....So i don't really know what is going on there....


----------



## iGen3 (Mar 21, 2002)

jhines_06gli said:


> ALL US spec. 2.0FSI engines I've been into to re-ring have had the flap-top pistons in them. All have been engine code BPY and I've done lots varying from 2005-production up until 2009. And you had dome-top from the factory in your GTI? What engine code?
> 
> As for the flaps, I have a 2006 GLI(built in 2005), so it's one of the EARLY BPY engines. I took the dividers out in the head with my last cleaning about 1.5 months ago. I've since put 8K or so miles on the car and have seen no adverse effects. No true gains, but no running conditions that effected engine either. The only reason I did it was to see what the buildup would look like(if different after 20K) when I tear it back down. Seems all the engines I tear down have TONS of buildup mainly on the top section of the ports since that is what gets the airflow all the time. So if by distributing the airflow over the entire port will reduce the buildup some, it'll benefit. Yet at the same time, I left the flaps in the manifold and left the IMRC hooked up properly, so the flaps will still create turbulence for the airflow coming in.
> 
> ...


 any update on divider delete? I forgot to put mine back just now....wondering if OK to wait till winter and any cold issues if there are any...


----------



## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

iGen3 said:


> any update on divider delete? I forgot to put mine back just now....wondering if OK to wait till winter and any cold issues if there are any...


 Still not running mine. And still no negative change. They may/may not go back in at next cleaning. WE shall see what my tuning route is by then.


----------



## iGen3 (Mar 21, 2002)

great, thanks. I'm at 190,000 miles of OEM tune. I guess I should chip it one of these days..


----------



## Mk620T (May 18, 2012)

Removed these and my car runs fine. I'm not sure but I think the flappers have something to do with cold startups and tumbling air to get a better mix. I'm in Houston - never really gets cold.


----------



## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Old thread...I know. Just never saw this all those years ago and I like to toss $#[email protected] around.
I am pretty sure the intake manifold partitions are there to straighten the airflow disturbed by the runner-flap's changing position. And to direct some inlet air...to distribute air in the port openings over the valves better. As the runner flaps close, the remaining open area in the manifold is near the top. I would think if you have done, or will do, the RFD (runner flap delete)...the partitions can come out with no issues. They would seem useless with a RFD. Also, some without the RFD have simply removed the partitions w/o issue, as far as we know, correct?


----------



## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

So I have another inquiry regarding the port partition orientation.
They are slightly angled, but which way are they meant to deflect?

Is Side-A up or down? *EDIT: Side-A is UP*


----------



## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Nevermind...I've answered my own question in finding this...Side-A appears to be up.
The partitions appear to deflect downward in this "Prt Sc" from a vid:


----------



## TimS78 (Nov 8, 2012)

The runner flaps rest on the partitions when they're in their 'closed' position, and it changes the effective size of the intake port during cold start. When the flaps are open, the partitions might help a bit with swirl, but mostly don't do anything. With a RFD, you have to remove the partitions since the small locating pins interfere with the inserts on RFD kits. 

As far as I know, they only install in one orientation - I think that angle is enough to hit the edge where the port splits to the valves and prevent them from going all the way in upside down (but I could be wrong about that).


----------



## Yossarian18 (Nov 7, 2017)

I did the flapper delete, and now I'm wondering if I should have left the dividers in or not. She runs fine cold and hot.


----------



## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Yossarian18 said:


> I did the flapper delete, and now I'm wondering if I should have left the dividers in or not. She runs fine cold and hot.


I believe they are there to disburse/deflect/direct some inlet air to the back side of the valves and their openings. And since they are angled a bit, they likely stabilize the flow making the flow more laminar, making the flow less turbulent.


----------

