# Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)



## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*"surging" under light acceleration*

Anyone had this? It is getting easily reproducible. A surging of the engine like i am tapping on the gas. revs go 1200 to 1400, back to 1200, back to 1400. It happens quicker than I can do with my foot if i try to make it happen like actually tapping on the gas. When it happens, i am holding steady light acceleration, maybe 10-20% throttle, in higher gears, 3-6. Only happens at 1200-2000 rpm, only under mild throttle (so like 25-45 mph depending on gear). Doesn't always happen in this rev range though, such as when i took the shop foreman for a spin (didn't happen at all, what else is new!!). But the next day, it was back. The surging is audible and noticeable by the seat of the pants, and passengers have asked me "what are you doing?!?!" without me telling them about the issue, so it is pretty obvious. The tech hooked up the machine and said he reproduced it, that it was basically normal, a solenoid that controls the lock out of the torque converter. The solenoid can't decide to lock out or not lock out the torque converter, and it's on is my surging. He says there is no fix, because nothing is broken. Since he believes it is the solenoid, new tranny fluidwon't help, so no go on that. A new solenoid will function the same way, he says. He says he has seen this on a couple of Touaregs. Anyone know anything about this? It is new, and I would not call it normal. Should I push for new tranny fluid, replace the solenoid, even if if isn't broken? This has started in only the past 1000 miles (I am at 13K now). All help is most appreciated.
Mike


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: "surging" under light acceleration (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_.... All help is most appreciated. Mike

A few thoughts...
Although the transmission fluid is probably OK, the ZF transmission is very sensitive to the proper fluid level. It is checked from under the car while the transmission is in a very narrow temperature range. Checking transmission fluid

There is a tiny chance that the transmission has the wrong fluid from the factory. There was another poster on this board some time ago that encountered this situation with his '04 V8. Transmission noise (caused by low ATF fluid)
And, in an effort to help eliminate any unknown gremlins from the adaptive shift logic maps, I would suggest having your transmission reset to it's default settings by hooking up a diagnostic scan tool to controller 02, channel 0 and saving the value 00.
Good luck in solving your issue!
Edit:
This might be a similiar issue ...
Shuttering in drive line


_Modified by pretendcto at 4:05 PM 9-25-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re:*

See this "Tech Tip":


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## jmuoio (May 30, 2006)

*Re: "surging" under light acceleration (dododavis)*

I had a similar experience on my first Phaeton and it turned out to be a seal in the torque converter leaking coolant into the transmission fluid. It needed a new transmission, but the car was never the same after that. This is a apparently a known issue with some 2004 Phaetons. I wouldn't dawdle on it. I thought it was something in the fuel system as well, as did the dealer, replacing both pumps. But ultimately turned out to be this leak. FYI, new Phaeton transmission is around $22, 000 and requires taking off the entire front of the car. I have pictures of it if anyone is interested I'll post them. Could be a different problem, but if it isn't it's a nasty thing that you might be able to get fixed easier than I did.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re:*

There is a TB (Technical Bulletin) published that addresses the possible need to replace a seal in some early production model year 2004 Phaetons. Note that this problem only affects a small number of transmissions within the transmission serial number range noted (MY 2004 with transmission serial numbers up to 92440), it does not affect all of the transmissions prior to that serial number. There are no 'shades of grey' associated with this TB - if the car has generated the specific fault code that the TB refers to (Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Illuminated, DTC PO741 17125), the TB applies, if that Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) is not present, this TB does not apply.
Note also that this TB applies only to Phaetons that drive perfectly well, but the owners sees the MIL (malfunction indication light) coming on for some inexplicable reason. It does not address transmissions that do not work properly.
I have researched all the technical publications that I have, North American and European, and can find no TBs or similar about transmission problems, other than the need to remove a small plastic nub from the under-body cover on W12s so that the transmission fluid cooler is not damaged if you drive the car up on top of a rock (see this post: TB 00-06-02 - W12 (only!) Underbody Cover Attachment Modification). So, it seems that transmissions are, generally speaking, pretty trouble-free components, and no systemic fault has been found with Phaeton transmissions other than the problem with the light coming on that is discussed in the attached TB.
Michael

Attached is a copy of the above-referenced TB 32-06-01.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re:*

VW has also published a TB that provides guidance to the technician concerning how to precisely report transmission performance problems, to better enable the specialists at VW Head Office to analyze the problem and recommend a solution. I have attached this document to the bottom of this post.

As we all know, it can be tough for a technician to experience and be aware of every possible nuance related to vehicle performance when he or she only spends a half an hour or an hour test driving the vehicle. So, if you have a concern that your transmission is not operating as it should, it would be very, very helpful if you printed this document out, kept it with you for about a week as you drove your car, and filled in all the appropriate sections with *your *interpretation of exactly how and when the problem manifests itself. Then, when you bring the car into the VW dealer for service, bring the completed form along, and see if you can discuss your findings with the technician when you drop the car off. 
I am sure that the technicians will appreciate your assistance - it will make it much easier for them to 'put their finger on' exactly what it is that you are concerned about.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: "surging" under light acceleration (PanEuropean)*

Just a follow-up about the "vw.tb.32-06-01 MIL Illuminated, DTC 17125, P0741 Stored In Transmission Fault Memory, No Driveability Concern" Technical Bulletin, a copy of which is posted two posts higher up:
This fault code appeared in my W12 Phaeton this past winter. After a bit of experimenting, I found that the trigger for it seemed to be parking the car outside overnight when the prevailing temperature was well below freezing, then starting the car. The fault would appear immediately after start, but if it was then cleared (using a diagnostic scan tool) before the car was driven, the fault would not re-appear during that driving cycle. In fact, the fault would not re-appear again until the car was once again allowed to cold-soak, then started.
The Phaeton tech at my VW dealership and I investigated this, following the procedures outlined in the TB, and the result was an indication that the torque converter needed to be replaced. However - both of us were quite reluctant to do this, even though the car was within warranty, because it is pretty major surgery.
I have since had discussions with VW engineers in Auburn Hills who have advised me that there is a known issue with certain early production 5 speed (W12 engine only) torque converters, and if the light comes on and after further investigation, the criteria in the TB indicates the torque converter needs to be replaced, then the torque converter should be replaced. In other words, VW appreciated the efforts to reduce warranty costs, but in this case, if the torque converter fails the detailed tests called for in the TB, it is defective and should be replaced.
I have heard considerable anecdotal evidence _(read between the lines here) _of transmissions failing soon after the replacement of the torque converter, and this concerned me. The VW engineers explained that if the torque converter is not properly fitted to the vehicle when it is replaced, this could cause problems in the automatic transmission that could cause the transmission to fail later on.
The Phaeton maintenance manual does not provide a huge amount of guidance about replacing torque converters. So, I am going to go visit the ZF Transmission build plant in Germany where the Phaeton transmissions are built, and get some expert tuition from the folks there about how to replace a torque converter without causing harm to the transmission later on. Once I get that information (and 1,000 photos, of course), I will discuss this with the Phaeton tech at my VW dealership, and then be on hand to take pictures of the critical areas when the staff at my dealership replace the torque converter. I'l then write up an illustrated post (similar to the F265 Map Controlled Engine Thermostat Replacement post) so that everyone else has some illustrated guidance to follow when it comes to replacing torque converters.
It seems that the torque converter is not an especially expensive part, although it does take a lot of time (about 15 hours) to replace it. However, the transmissions cost a fortune. So, the goal here is to figure out how to replace these torque converters without unintentionally causing consequential damage to the transmission.
Michael


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

*First C.E.L*

Hi good folks,
I noticed my first Check Engine Light today at my office parking lot so when I got home last night, I ran the Vagcom and got one error message which I have copied below.
_1 Fault Found:
17125 - Torque Converter Clutch Circuit Performance or Stuck Off.
P0741 - 003 - Mechanical Failure - Intermittent
Control Module Part Number: 3D0 927 156 N 
Component and/or Version: AG5 01L 6.0 W12 USA 1112
Software Coding: 0001102
Work Shop Code: WSC 13622_
Any thoughts on the seriousness of this so I can schedule a service visit with the dealership as I have about 1250 miles left before the manufacturer warranty expires. 
Thank you all in advance!


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: First C.E.L (maverixz)*

To the shop tout-suite!!! While the fault isn't catastrophic from a drivability nature, it's sure an expensive one.
There's about 7-8k worth of warranty work you're going to want to have handled before the next 1200 miles are over.


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: First C.E.L (chrisj428)*

Chris,
Thank you very much, you are a life saver. I will schedule the appointment immediately.
I cleared the code after I ran the check, would that be a problem with the dealership?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: First C.E.L (maverixz)*

Hi Malcolm:
Chris is correct. That fault means that you will need to have the torque converter replaced. 
The good news is that there is no urgency attached to getting the torque converter replaced - in other words, there is no degradation of the drivability of your Phaeton right now. I encountered the same fault code about 3 months ago, and have driven about 6,000 miles with the fault present. I have delayed replacing the torque converter for a couple of reasons - the most significant being that I want to visit ZF Transmissions in Saarbrücken, Germany to get some detailed information (and photos) about how to replace the torque converter before the staff at my VW dealership go ahead with the work. In theory, replacing a torque converter should be a pretty straightforward job, but there has been a history of W12s needing to have the whole transmission replaced a few months after getting a new torque converter installed. I want to find out from ZF how to avoid this problem, and share this information with the techs at my VW dealership (and everyone else here in the forum) before actually getting the torque converter replaced.
I am in Switzerland now, and plan to go to ZF in Saarbrücken on Monday or Tuesday of next week.
So, what I suggest you do is this: Take your car to the VW dealer and get them to read out and record (on a paper printout) the fault code. By doing this - in other words, by opening a work order for the problem now, while you are still in warranty, you will ensure that the torque converter can be replaced later on (past the 50,000 mile threshold) and still covered by warranty. This particular fault code (and torque converter problem) is a 'known issue' with the 5 speed transmission used on the W12, and VW of America has published a Technical Bulletin about it. So, neither you nor your dealer should encounter any problems with the warranty claim.
FYI, it is a very complex process to replace a torque converter - it takes about 15 hours, and requires (absolutely, positively requires) that the dealer have the special lifting tool for Phaeton transmission removal. This is about a $10,000 tool, if your local dealer was a Phaeton dealer in the past, they will have this tool, but check to make sure.
Once I get back to Canada (hopefully about June 29), I will take pictures of the staff at my VW dealership replacing my torque converter, and write up a 'how-to' post for the benefit of everyone else.
I have appended your original post (above) onto the end of an existing post that discusses this same problem, and also has the TB attached.
Michael


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: First C.E.L (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Thank you very much. I will follow your instructions. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: First C.E.L (maverixz)*

*Archival Note:*
For information about transmission concerns on *V8 * powered Phaetons that use the 6 speed transmission, see these posts: 
2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns
6 Speed Automatic Transmission Concerns (V8 Phaetons)
For information about transmission concerns on *W12 * powered Phaetons that use the 5 speed transmission, see this post:
Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter?
Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)

Please do not confuse the two transmissions! There are known issues that affect a minority of the Phaetons out there with both of the transmissions, but the two transmissions are as different as chalk and cheese! All V8 Phaetons have a 6 speed transmission installed, and all W12 Phaetons have a 5 speed transmission installed. There is no carry-over and no correlation between the problems described and solutions provided for the two different transmissions!
Michael


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## ZOG (Apr 5, 2008)

*Re: First C.E.L (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael-
Thanks for shifting my previous post, I think this is the thread I remembered before. The transmission problem came up suddenly, and with NO warning light whatsoever (although the dealership detected fault codes when they hooked it up). Did you ever get around to doing a write-up on the torque converter replacement issue? I plan on showing my local dealership this thread & whatever info I can find just to cover all of my bases before surgery begins...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: First C.E.L (ZOG)*

I didn't do a write-up on the torque converter replacement for the W12 powered Phaeton because it is my belief (and ZF's belief) that the torque converter should not be replaced as a result of *that *fault code... the most appropriate fix would be to update the software of the transmission controller so that it doesn't indicate an 'increased fuel consumption' based fault code when this condition only takes place when the vehicle transmission is in Park, as is the case with the W12 fault code.
However - this opinion only addresses the fault code that gets stored when the transmission is cold-soaked in the winter. That particular fault code does not affect the functionality of the transmission at all - in other words, there is no impact whatsoever on the drivability of the vehicle.
In your case, it sounds like you have a different problem (different causal factor), because it is affecting the drivability of your vehicle.
All I can suggest to you is that the staff at your dealership should set aside at least a week of time to do the torque converter change, and they should plan to drop the entire engine and transmission as a single unit, then take the two apart on the special work-table. The directions given in the ELSA literature that suggest it is possible to drop a W12 transmission without also dropping the engine/transmission as a combined unit first are unrealistic.
I'll try to post a few pictures of the process with my car later this evening.
Michael


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## ZOG (Apr 5, 2008)

*Re: First C.E.L (PanEuropean)*

Oh, well, as you might have noticed in my other post, the whole transmission is now getting replaced. We'll see how that goes. Do we know how many other W12 owners have had to have this done?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: First C.E.L (ZOG)*

Several W12 transmissions were replaced in 2004 due to damage incurred from below - the driver hitting a curb stop with the underbody pan, and a boss on the pan puncturing the oil cooler for the transmission, which is way up at the front of the car.
VW then released a technical bulletin mandating a small change in the underbody pan that removed the risk. Since then, I have not heard of anyone needing a 5 speed transmission replacement.
Here's a link to the post about the TB: W12 (only!) Underbody Cover Attachment Modification (Includes TB 00-06-02 and TB 37-07-08)
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: First C.E.L (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:* Related Post - W12 Service Bulletin (Transmission Fluid Change every 20K miles)


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## larryali (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: First C.E.L (PanEuropean)*

Michael, Anyone,
Hi, Thank you for your insight regarding the possibility of a faulty code to replace the torque converter on a phaeton. Actually I have a Passat W8 and have confirmed the code 17125 at my local dealership. They only service my W8 and have no experience with any other W engines. My vehicle SEEMS to run beautifully, however it has 100k. Always maintained w/ synthetic oil as recommended. 
The cost for the repair has been quoted at over 6k plus I need brakes and new belt etc etc totaling $7500. I am at a point of decision to trade the vehicle in or take my chances that there is no real problem with the torque converter. Any advice? 
Thanks!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Attachments (above) re-hosted.

Michael


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