# Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a suggestion for a system



## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

Callaway Turbo non-intercooled 1.6
I'm considering:
Edelbrock
Devil's Own
Snow Performance
Leaning towards Devil's Own
I'm going with a base system and only running 7 psi of boost, so I don't need anything crazy. Your thoughts??
BONUS QUESTION: Does anyone have ANY pics of the Callaway-installed system?????


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (sciroccojim)*

Jim, you absolutely 100% should buy a kit with an engine load-based controller. The on/off type of actuation only makes sense if you're doing a single stage of nitrous oxide, etc, where the demand for octane is also on/off.
Since you're not running an intercooler, I'd put an emphasis on intake cooling. So, place the nozzle immediately after the turbocharger. This will allow maximum time for the droplets to evaporate and thusly pull out heat from the intake charge. Whatever is left in liquid form by the time it reaches the combustion chambers will raise the octane rating and suppress detonation.
I can provide a heck of a lot more information than that, too. For instance, you'll need to size your nozzles correctly, set the pump pressure, pick the ratio of water to alcohol, etc. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... ([email protected])*

Awesome info, Scott...thanks.
I was looking at the simple systems because (a) it would be closer to "period correct" on my 80 and (b) I won't be driving this car (mostly just to shows) and I wanted to keep the costs down.
But your advice is food for thought.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (sciroccojim)*

I'm not suggesting that you must buy something complex. Rather, you should invest in a solution that actually *works*. A load-based controller is critical to proper operation (i.e. a smooth power band without bogs, misfires, and detonation). Then, the whole thing must be set up/tuned correctly. I suggest buying from a dealer that actually understands the science. (There are plenty that have no clue how it all works and just sell you box of stuff.)
I can't help you with your point (b), though. Investing in technical bits that won't even be used seems rather pointless. But... that's just "me".


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## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... ([email protected])*

What components need to be installed in order to have load-based control?


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (sciroccojim)*

You simply need to buy a kit with a proper load-based controller. In the Snow Performance world, that's the difference between Stage1 (on/off) and Stage2 (load-based). Drop me a line and I can tutor you on more details: 856.456.3335.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

AEM is what i run
alot of OPTIONS from others are stock on the AEM kit
had this for about a year and i love
25 psi and a vrt will do that to you!!!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (sciroccojim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccojim* »_ 
Devil's Own
Snow Performance


I have used both the Devil's own and Snow and I prefer the Devil's own kit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VEE-DUBBER (Nov 22, 2000)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (Wizard-of-OD)*

Devils own. for the money you can't touch the setup. extremely easy to install. Nice to see the forum up and running after i waited so long with getting votes on it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








We sell Devils Own at http://www.speedwaremotorsports.com Call up the service center and ask for me (Josh) or Kelly, and we will get you set up.


_Modified by VEE-DUBBER at 8:37 PM 8-8-2008_


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## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (VEE-DUBBER)*

Great stuff...I'm loving having a place to discuss this. But my question still stands: how do I achieve load-based water injection control on a car with fully mechanical CIS?
I'm really trying to keep non-period mods to a minnimum.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (sciroccojim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccojim* »_how do I achieve load-based water injection control on a car with fully mechanical CIS?
I'm really trying to keep non-period mods to a minimum.

Jim, if you want to do this period correct... then you should spray distilled water with a high-pressure/low-volume pump before the turbo and actuate it with an on/off switch. Of course, this will make fine-tuning impossible and you'll wreck your turbo fairly quickly. But, that's how it was done back in the old days. WAI really became practical in later years. So, you need to decide whether you want it period correct or just *CORRECT*. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
For load-based actuation to work with CIS, you'll need a controller with a MAP input. (The controller doesn't "know" or "care" how you accomplish your fuel injection.) Of course, you'll need to size your nozzles correctly and pick the correct pump pressure, too. I'll be happy to help you with these particulars.


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## blitzed (May 11, 2008)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... ([email protected])*

Scott, sent you some emails and im's with some interesting info/?'s...let me know what you think


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## 18Lturbo (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Jim, if you want to do this period correct... then you should spray distilled water with a high-pressure/low-volume pump before the turbo and actuate it with an on/off switch. Of course, this will make fine-tuning impossible and you'll wreck your turbo fairly quickly. But, that's how it was done back in the old days. WAI really became practical in later years. So, you need to decide whether you want it period correct or just *CORRECT*. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
For load-based actuation to work with CIS, you'll need a controller with a MAP input. (The controller doesn't "know" or "care" how you accomplish your fuel injection.) Of course, you'll need to size your nozzles correctly and pick the correct pump pressure, too. I'll be happy to help you with these particulars.

Scott, you seem to be the mac in wai. I'm going to be running a 50T .63 4 bolt 630 Uni MAFless file, Rods, clutch, and a hole already tapped in to my Eurojet Race Aluminum pipe. Im shooting for a SAFE 350whp
What size is the nozzle that taps into the IC pipe? Just incase I need to plug it up temporarily... no money could be an issue.
Do you have any pump/nozzle suggestions?
Uni is also working on a 2-step program I NEED, will this affect anything?


_Modified by 18Lturbo at 11:04 AM 8-12-2008_


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (18Lturbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *18Lturbo* »_Scott, you seem to be the mac in wai.

Well, thanks for the recognition. It took me 2 - 3 years to put WAI on the map within the VW enthusiast space -fighting doubters and misinformation all the way. Now, it's almost mainstream -competitors all over and everything!









_Quote »_What size is the nozzle that taps into the IC pipe? Just incase I need to plug it up temporarily.

That should be a 1/8" NPT bung, sir.

_Quote »_Do you have any pump/nozzle suggestions?

Well, the super duper way to go is with 2x spray nozzles. In your case, I'd probably do a 375cc just after the IC and a 60cc at the TB. Give me a call if you want more precise info than that: 856.456.3335. I'll be happy to crunch numbers for you after more of the specifics are clarified. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

Tell me more about why two nozzles as you indicate are better then just getting one bigger nozzle just after the IC. (1.5 - 2 feet from the TB)
Here is my current WAI set up and let me know what you think. 
I have the snow maf kit w/225ml nozzle about 1.5 - 2feet from the TB. Stock turbo k03 right now. I log IATs and they are good but I think they could be better. They are about 5-10 degrees over ambient. Keep in mind its humid down here all the time.
2007 MKV 2.0T GTI FSI
I will be going with the ATP kit GT3071r soon. 
What nozzel or duel nozzle set up do you recommend and why?
I am aiming for a safe 350-370whp and trying to get the most out of water/meth injection. 
Thanks in advance


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*

Lou, WAI's function benefits depend largely upon fluid evaporation and definitely where that evaporation takes place. Spraying far away from the engine allows for maximum evaporation and thusly superior IAT reduction. However, if the stuff has already changed phase (i.e. from droplets to gas) before it reaches the combustion chambers, then it will do little to suppress detonation.
Spraying very close to the engine ensures that all or most of the spray cloud will reach the final destination in liquid form. So, the evaporation takes place inside the combustion chambers. This slows down the flame front much like high-octane race fuel. Of course, if you've got only one nozzle in this location it'll do nothing for cooling.
So... the optimal set up is to put one nozzle just after the intercooler and the other up at the TB or in a direct port arrangement. With that said... for 370whp I'd probably go for something like a 225cc just after the IC and a 175 at the TB. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

Very cool. Thank you Scott!


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*

(commercial start)
You're welcome, Lou. My "fee" is easy to pay, too. Just let your buds know that USRT is *the* source WAI tuning knowledge. Kits can be purchased from here and there, but basically nobody completes the solution like us.








(/end of commercial)


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## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

So funny!!! lol Will do!


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## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_For load-based actuation to work with CIS, you'll need a controller with a MAP input. (The controller doesn't "know" or "care" how you accomplish your fuel injection.) Of course, you'll need to size your nozzles correctly and pick the correct pump pressure, too. I'll be happy to help you with these particulars.

Scott:
I've been meaning to drop you a line to discuss this, but it's lower on my list than other things, such as getting the motor back together.
I will call you at some point to discuss further but I have two questions: first, the injection systems I've seen appear to be geared towards higher performance systems than the one I'm building. A 1.6 Callaway with about 115 HP is not going to require a high output pump and large nozzle(s). I'm a huge fan of small, cheap and light but I do like to do things correctly. Is it possible to build a kit, with a smaller pump, etc. that would be correctly sized for my car?
Second. as far as control is concerned, it appears I can just add a GM MAP sensor and I'm good to go, yes?
Thanks.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (sciroccojim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccojim* »_the injection systems I've seen appear to be geared towards higher performance systems than the one I'm building.

Your engine spec is modest in contemporary terms. However, since it's not as dialed in as modern technology it's actally *more* needy of safeguards to keep things happy.

_Quote »_A 1.6 Callaway with about 115 HP is not going to require a high output pump and large nozzle(s).

That's correct. The actuation mechanism is the same, though.

_Quote »_Is it possible to build a kit, with a smaller pump, etc. that would be correctly sized for my car?

No.

_Quote »_Second. as far as control is concerned, it appears I can just add a GM MAP sensor and I'm good to go, yes?

No. A MAP sensor will take manifold pressure and convert it into a voltage that varies between 0 - 5V. That's ALL it will do. The next trick is to make that signal useful so as to vary pump output to match engine load. That requires a proper load-based controller. If it's any consolation to you, these WAI systems operate very much like CIS in that the nozzle is always open and pressure is varied to modulate flow.


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## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_No. A MAP sensor will take manifold pressure and convert it into a voltage that varies between 0 - 5V. That's ALL it will do. The next trick is to make that signal useful so as to vary pump output to match engine load. That requires a proper load-based controller. If it's any consolation to you, these WAI systems operate very much like CIS in that the nozzle is always open and pressure is varied to modulate flow.

That's what I meant. I was asking if I could install a MAP sensor and use with a controller.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Now we're talking!! First thread on the new forum...need a s ... (sciroccojim)*

The MAP sensor is already built into the controllers that I provide, Jim. The whole device is about the size of a deck of cards. That and the pump are the biggest parts of the package and can easily be hidden. It's easy to make the whole thing 99% invisible.


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