# 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Some preliminary measurements and some observations before flow numbers come in. I still need to cc the heads as well, but I'm sure you'll all get a kick out what I have so far. 
Pics tomorrow.
All measurements were taken on a bone stock reman BDF head and a bone stock 40k BJS head.
*
Intake Valves*
BDF 31mm
BJS 33.2mm
Little over 2mm increase, but per valve it's a 14.7% gain in valve area.
Intake valve stems are also undercut on the BJS head where BDF valves are not.
BJS valves have a much larger dish.
*Exhaust Valves*
BDF 27mm
BJS 30.2mm
Little over 3mm increase this time, per valve it's a 25% gain in valve area.
BJS valves have a much larger dish
* Valve Area Ratio E/I*
This will approximate the exhaust to intake flow ratio if the ports are not a huge restriction:
BDF 75.85% 
BJS 82.74%
High power engines using symmetrical cams can use flow ratios up to 85% the lower the flow ratio the bigger the exhaust cam should be.
*Port Sizes and Approx Areas*
_Intake Long_
BDF 39.44mm high, 35.50mm wide - approx 1400.12 sqmm port area
BJS 41.25mm high, 35.55mm wide - approx 1457.3625 sqmm port area
BJS port is raised more in the casting.
BJS port area gain is about 4%
_Intake Short_
BDF 31.01mm high, 41.07mm wide - approx 1271 sqmm port area
BJS 38.59mm high, 38.52mm wide - approx 1486.4868 sqmm port area
Comparing the short and long ports the BDF areas are more dissimilar.
BJS gain in port area is about 16.95%
_Exhaust Ports_
All exhaust ports on both heads share dimensions between them
BDF 33.80mm high, 29.06mm wide - approx 980.2 sqmm port area
BJS 34.00mm high, 33.06mm wide - approx 1122 sqmm port area
BJS port area gain is roughly 14.5%
*Chamber Dimensions*
Chamber Width - measured from the sides of the chamber at the widest point
BDF - 79.75mm
BJS - 79.78mm
Chamber Height - Measured from quench pad to quench pad
BDF - 64.32mm
BJS - 63.23mm
Chambers are very different in shape other then those two basic dimensions. The valves in the BJS are much more unshrouded in the chamber, taking the larger bore as an advantage. Also, there are some nice little 'features' between valves on the BJS head where the BDF is a lot more a 'plain jane' combustion chamber. 
Using the BJS head on an 81mm BDF block could cause some serious valve shrouding and not let the head flow what it can on a larger bore. Just something to think about.
Plug angle looks identical. 
*What's this all mean?*
Given all that an increase of up to about 15% would not be unheard of for the R32's BJS head on a BDF block given the change in valve sizes and the large change in exhaust flow. The question of valve shrouding could be an issue, and I'll have some decent pictures of a stock 2.8 gasket on the BJS head to give a feel for that shortly. 
*So, what's next?*
The BDF head has already been to the flowbench and the BJS is off next to the *exact* same bench to get flowed. I have some good bare port numbers (no valves) for the BDF and in stock form it barely flows what a decently ported 12v head will flow with valves in it. This might be why my 12v power numbers get close to stock head/cammed 24v numbers. However, I've seen numbers from other benches where the BJS blows everything (vw) out of the water. I'd just like to see all the data come from the same, reliable, source. 
Hope this was helpful in some way, don't go tripping to get an R32 head though.. you still have to think about how those bigger valves clear the 2.8 pistons valve reliefs!!



_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 11:43 PM 8-5-2008_


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (need_a_VR6)*










very similar to my measurements that i took 3-4 months ago that nobody really cared about. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I think this data should be included in the FAQ some where.


_Modified by fourthchirpin at 1:47 AM 8-6-2008_


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## G_Lader_91 (Dec 28, 2006)

Great info,correct me if I'm wrong, hypothetically you could have a bdf cylinder head machined to accommodate the .:R's valves?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (fourthchirpin)*

I cared, I just stashed the info away in my archives








You could fit the R32 valves in the BDF head but I see four problems:
1) The increase in valve size you might want larger reliefs in the pistons for clearance, you'd have to clay the motor with the cam at full advance to be sure that there is enough room.
2) Valve shrouding: the big intakes especially will get very close to cylinder wall on the front side impeding flow. 
3) Compression: the R32 valves seem to have a large dish compared to the BDF valves, though I'm not sure of the magnitude of the drop without cc'ing a valve.
4) Valve seats: for +1mm you can generally fit oversize valves on machined seats, for more you need bigger ones. 
A well ported stock valve BDF head with a valve job might just make better power then a BDF head with just the R32 valves in it just due to better velocity and better flow in and out of the chamber. Hard to know until someone tries both though.


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 7:28 AM 8-6-2008_


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## Velocity_Sport_Tuned (Jan 13, 2007)

Good post...... I`ll be adding some info to it once I get around to it in December.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubb24v (Dec 21, 2006)

*Re: (Velocity_Sport_Tuned)*

Great info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (need_a_VR6)*

Great work Paul..
Next time PM me with **** like this..given how busy I am on my new house I could have easily let this slip past me!! I guess the kids aren't keeping you _too_ busy eh?
Shoot me a PM about where you are flowing stuff.. maybe I can make a drive down with my head before I install it for 'same bench' numbers..


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## BakBer (Apr 19, 2007)

*FV-QR*

This should be added to the FAQ


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## Velocity_Sport_Tuned (Jan 13, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (BakBer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BakBer* »_This should be added to the FAQ

Yes!!! x2







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Velocity_Sport_Tuned)*

Nice need to keep this


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (newcreation)*










2.8 hg on 3.2 head.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (newcreation)*

Haha someone add this to the FAQ I don't have any secret powers. No pics tonight, got _too_ busy, tomorrow.
Also if someone has a stock BDF piston I can throw it in a 12v block I have to check the valve clearances at tdc with the BJS head.


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## Velocity_Sport_Tuned (Jan 13, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Haha someone add this to the FAQ I don't have any secret powers. No pics tonight, got _too_ busy, tomorrow.
Also if someone has a stock BDF piston I can throw it in a 12v block I have to check the valve clearances at tdc with the BJS head.

I might be able to help with the pistion..... what condition does it need to be in..???
PM me


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Velocity_Sport_Tuned)*

Already got one on the way, people are anxious to see what fits.
Also if anyone knows max lift at TDC for known camsets for both full retard exhaust and advance intake , it'd be helpful


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## brilliantyellowg60 (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Hope this was helpful in some way, don't go tripping to get an R32 head though.. you still have to think about how those bigger valves clear the 2.8 pistons valve reliefs!!

I am waiting to see this


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## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

Hey paul, i used the r32 Hg and have dished pistons im running with your head. That is one way to deal with the possible issue of the 2.8 valve reliefs in reference to the r32's valves


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Dubbed95)*

I'm more worried about the valves clearing the 81mm bore.. the stock 2.8 gasket bore is probably larger then that. Some more checking this weekend!


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## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

Bore is slightly over 82mm now, interested as to what ele u find out on monday


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Dubbed95)*

It's going to be interesting to say the least!!


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## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

hey paul The r32 engine I just picked up is from a touareg engine code (BAA) any idea if the measurments are the same as the BJS head?


_Modified by misc.motorsports at 6:14 PM 9-8-2008_


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (misc.motorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *misc.motorsports* »_hey paul The r32 engine I just picked up is from a touareg engine code (BAA) any idea if the measurments are the same as the BJS head?



from my sources everything is the same from all the 3.2 24v's.


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## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*

good to know I was gonna rip it apart to check the sizes. Maybe I'll just leave it together.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (misc.motorsports)*

ETKA says they're the same..


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

just got the lifters last night, PM me


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

what is the lenght of the valves in the r32 head...?


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## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (need_a_VR6)*

How did I miss this thread. Nice work Paul http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Any progress on this?

_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_ I have some good bare port numbers (no valves) for the BDF and in stock form it barely flows what a decently ported 12v head will flow with valves in it. This might be why my 12v power numbers get close to stock head/cammed 24v numbers. 

How many CFM did the BDF head flow? Do you have any CFM numbers for the 12v head, stock and/or ported?
I'm curious to know, because doing some quick/approximate calculations, I get the following:
Intake: BDF has 2x31mm intake valves, which equals to (2x31)/sqrt(2) = ~44mm single intake valve
Exhaust: BDF has 2x27mm exhaust valves, which equals (2x27)/sqrt(2) = ~38.3mm single exhaust valve
Conclusion: You're going to need much bigger intake (44mm) and exhaust (38.3mm) valves on the 12v head to match the flow on the BDF head. It's impossible to fit these valves, not to mention the shrouding caused by the +2mm bigger valves on the 12 head with 81mm bore.
Porting the 12v head must be doing a hell of a job since you're getting close numbers to the BDF http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by VR6rocks at 1:22 AM 10-19-2008_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (VR6rocks)*

I haven't had much time to update on anything, though I still have everything here to keep on it over the winter. 
I did get a piston from porkchop to mock up the BJS head on an 81mm block to see if the valves hit. Unfortunately I need to make solid and adjustable lash caps to really test it and that's my hold up at the moment. 
The BDF made 180-185cfm at 28" on a well known Superflow bench with no valves and a radius inlet. There are 12v heads that make more then that out there, I can't comment on my personal one. Stock 12v heads flow in the 140 range, and the BDF I believe makes about 165-170cfm at .450" but I'd have to double check my notes. 
I still want back to back tests on the bench with both heads with and without valves but I have a few things to do before they go off again. 
Still messing around with this 12v motor..


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## Redteam123l (Mar 22, 2007)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (need_a_VR6)*

Paul, any idea if the R32 cams will work in a 24V 2.8l Jetta motor? Any problems or significant hp/tq gains? New to this forum but loving what i'm reading so far.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (Redteam123l)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Redteam123l* »_Paul, any idea if the R32 cams will work in a 24V 2.8l Jetta motor? Any problems or significant hp/tq gains? New to this forum but loving what i'm reading so far.

They are the same cams. You will yield no gains from the swap.


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## Redteam123l (Mar 22, 2007)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (RipCity Euros)*

WOW! I guess the R32 cams I just bought from a fellow Vtexer is now a rip-off paper weight......


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (Redteam123l)*

Yeah i smell ya there. Ive got some useless 24v schrick cams that i bought.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (RipCity Euros)*

R32 exhaust manifolds are the same inlet/outlet as the 2.8's as well. Downpipes are obviously different.


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (need_a_VR6)*

Good thread, this information is especially helpful for those attempting to make hybrid 24v engines






















Thanks Paul http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

Still got more work to do but it's getting there.


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## vdubb24v (Dec 21, 2006)

*Re: 24v Cylinder Head Tech 2.8 24v BDF vs R32 BJS (need_a_VR6)*

I'm very interested in this as well! Thanks for the info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (pOrKcHoP bOy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pOrKcHoP bOy* »_just got the lifters last night, PM me 

Paul - Lifters are on its way http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'll take page 2










_Modified by pOrKcHoP bOy at 2:32 PM 11-8-2008_


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

Paul I want dibs on solid R32 lifters






















Me =


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (pOrKcHoP bOy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pOrKcHoP bOy* »_Paul I want dibs on solid R32 lifters






















Me =









all motor guys first


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fourthchirpin* »_
all motor guys first









Not fair


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

Check out THIS head (2.8 24V on left, 3.6L 24V on right)


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (PhReE)*

A real shame they changed the vee angle.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

Well, I dont know if that would matter in trying to use that head on our motor... I wonder if it WOULD even fit? I wonder how far off it is? In that pic they look pretty similarly sized.... Meh I doubt it would fit.. Someone's gotta find out!


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_Well, I dont know if that would matter in trying to use that head on our motor... I wonder if it WOULD even fit? I wonder how far off it is? In that pic they look pretty similarly sized.... Meh I doubt it would fit.. Someone's gotta find out!

I would think that they wouldnt mate up because the valves are opening towards the piston at a different angle between the heads, so the valve reliefs would be way off. Plus i think the passages are different between the two heads/ blocks from what i have looked at.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (RipCity Euros)*

10deg vs 15deg the chamber centers will be closer in the 10deg.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

IF the height of the motor is the same. I think the 3.6L motor is taller, so that might end up working out to be the same. I didnt think about that though.


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## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (PhReE)*

also arent the 3.6's fsi making it just less likely of a capable swap.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (jettaglx91)*

They are FSI but who says you can't just put your injectors in the intake runners and plug the FSI injector holes? OR give it some time and I bet there will be SEM options for FSI OR you can use the 3.6L management and chiptune it... (I'm sure someone will get on the ball with chip options for that motor eventually, or you could have some custom work done)


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## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (PhReE)*

obviously you can do that and never said you couldnt but my point was to what was said earlier about swapping it place of the 2.8 or 3.2 head.
just pointing out another major obstacle to making it work


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (jettaglx91)*

I know nothing about a pistons design effecting volumetric efficiency, but the 3.6L FSI pistons have a small dish for the fuel to be sprayed at. I wonder if this would hinder any HP capabilities if you ran normal injectors. 
Just thinking out loud, it probably wouldnt matter much...


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (jettaglx91)*

Yeah, it would be tricky for sure.


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (jettaglx91)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jettaglx91* »_obviously you can do that and never said you couldnt but my point was to what was said earlier about swapping it place of the 2.8 or 3.2 head.
just pointing out another major obstacle to making it work

Compared to the 3.6 swap, I think the 2.8 with a 3.2 head is gonna be much much easier.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

Absolutely, plus we dont even know if the 3.6L head swap is possible.


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## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_









i knew the 3.6 has a huge bore but never saw a block without a head. all i can say is holy crap the bores are close to the center row of bolts!!
also what is the galley in the front for oil/coolant/breather?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (jettaglx91)*

I think that's the drain that used to be in the front/pass corner. 
I really doubt that the dishes in the FSI pistons will hurt power if you use 'normal' injection. 
If someone wants to drop one off I'll let you all know.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

Bunch of BDF pics, head is up FS if anyone is interested.












BJS pics to follow I have more disassembly to do.


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## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

Nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ive got a bite on a BJS head straight from Germany


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (RipCity Euros)*

Is it bad if I have a VR5 itch?


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## NastyBrown (Aug 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Is it bad if I have a VR5 itch?

Yes. You should get that taken care of. ASAP.


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (NastyBrown)*

The actual height of the R32 cylinder head is taller than a 24v BDF cylinder head as well. 
Possible reasons could be due to slightly different casting.


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## DUB_MANGv2 (Oct 28, 2008)

*FV-QR*

ok wtf seriously.... 
can the r32 head fit on our 24v and be sucessfully driven or wat.?? im getting impatient here and waitin for someone to give it the go before i try and buy one lol.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (DUB_MANGv2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DUB_MANGv2* »_ok wtf seriously.... 
can the r32 head fit on our 24v and be sucessfully driven or wat.?? im getting impatient here and waitin for someone to give it the go before i try and buy one lol.

Yes, it can.


_Quote, originally posted by *pOrKcHoP bOy* »_The actual height of the R32 cylinder head is taller than a 24v BDF cylinder head as well. 
Possible reasons could be due to slightly different casting.


Probably to make the intake port angles a little better.


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## DUB_MANGv2 (Oct 28, 2008)

*FV-QR*

i want proof! are their any videos? dyno results? someone on here whos running it?
... so whats the overall outcome then? better top end low end?


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (DUB_MANGv2)*

034 has a motor in an A4 in the FI forums.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4001630


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## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (DUB_MANGv2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DUB_MANGv2* »_ok wtf seriously.... 
can the r32 head fit on our 24v and be sucessfully driven or wat.?? im getting impatient here and waitin for someone to give it the go before i try and buy one lol.

You need to stop bitching and go read my buildup thread pg 26


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## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

R32 head on 81mm bore block is different then a R32 on a 82mm block. I dont believe anybody has tested it on a stock bore 2.8 yet but I may be wrong. Iam just a spectator.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (fourthchirpin)*

Good point...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_034 has a motor in an A4 in the FI forums.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4001630

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Posted almost a year ago...see middle of the page.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=3


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## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Wizard-of-OD)*

ive been doing alot of research on the r32 bjs head/ 2.8 bdf block combination something i didnt notice was does they mess with compression?


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## croniccorrado (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (jettaglx91)*

any up dates on this???????


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (croniccorrado)*

It's all sitting around. Too much other work to make much progress on this. Maybe for next season.


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

ok does anyone have the angle differences where the IM flange is on the head,

the reason i ask is i have a hogged out bdf head so i can temp use my r32 IM we are building, but in the interest of not doingit twice, what is the angle from vertical of the head to IM mating flange surface?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)




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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

It looks like the angle is the same, but port inlet center is higher off the deck, that's easy enough to account for in my mani build

Thanks


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The 3.2 port is perpendicular to the deck, 2.8 isn't and the valve to port angle changes as well. For a SRI build I don't think it'll make a difference.


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The 3.2 port is perpendicular to the deck, 2.8 isn't and the valve to port angle changes as well. For a SRI build I don't think it'll make a difference.


sweeet just what i needed to know, ill measure the angle on my BDF head, and account for it in my mani construction


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

are the 3.2L and 2.8L upper timing chain covers the same?


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## Eric D (Feb 16, 1999)

my2000APB said:


> are the 3.2L and 2.8L upper timing chain covers the same?


04 R32 yes (original 2.8 upper cover has now superseded to the 04 R32 cover), 08 R32 No (different cam sensors, and solenoid seals).


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Baa code Touareg is the same too.


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## my2000APB (Jun 3, 2007)

thx guys


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## splitspeed (Mar 14, 2011)

🏼🏼🏼🏼


By Splitspeed.


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