# FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed



## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

First off, those of you that have encountered the dreaded fuel cut know that more fuel is needed at low to mid RPM. The factory pump is not capable of building the requested amount of fuel pressure necessary to feed increased boost at low RPM. Many of the tuners have masked this by starting the line pressure higher ( raised from ~110bar to ~130bar) before the engine/ turbo make their way up to fuel cut. Sometimes this allows the engine to accelerate past the known fuel cut scenarios before the fuel pressure drops low enough to trigger a fuel cut. As chip tuners get more aggressive with their fuel and boost maps near boost onset, this problem gets worse. 
By increasing the volume of fuel displaced each cycle the pump makes (3 per 720 crank degrees), the pump is capable of pumping more fuel for a given RPM. For example, lets say that Brand X pump is capable of pumping 100cc/min. of fuel @ 3000RPM, and 200cc./min @ 6000RPM. The engine may only require 110cc. of fuel @ 3000, and 180cc @ 6000RPM. In the above situation, it's the lack of fuel volume @ 3000RPM that is the limit, because at 6000RPM the pump is capable of flowing 11% more fuel than needed. Let's say that Brand Y increased the displacement of the pump, and it's flow capacity goes up to 135cc/min @ 3000RPM, and 270cc. @ 6000RPM. That means that the upon installation of Brand Y's pump, the engine will be recieving all 110cc/min of fuel it requires, along with an extra ~23% excess. Now let's say the ECU is flashed with software that ups the boost in the midrange and tapers it down near stock levels @ 6000RPM. It is concievable that the engine would now require 130cc./min @ 3000RPM, and 190cc./min @ 6000RPM. With Brand X pump, the engine would definitely hit a fuel cut @ 3000RPM, but the pump would be capable of keeping up @ 6000RPM. Add Brand Y's fuel pump and the engine can take in all the fuel it requires, at 3000RPM, and 6000RPM. Now the dilema lies in increasing the volume of the pump enough to meet demands but not so much that the ECU controlled regulator/ bypass valve is outflowed.
Some pumps ( or kits) that will be coming to market have seals that are OEM, and some are high quality aftermarket seals. Both are acceptable. The tolerances inside the pumps are very tight, and care must be taken by whomever assembles the pump. Some pumps will be assembled by the company, some will come in kit form requiring (sp?) assembly. It is not a dificult task to assemble a pump. Assembly can be done with one socket, a lint free towel, and clean hands.(overly simplified, but after all, that's essentially all that is needed) For those that are not capable of, or afraid to assemble their pumps, I am sure the company manufacturing the pump will perform the assembly using your pump housing for a small charge. 
Now on to the myth about quality vs. cost... Just because a product is less expensive, doesn't mean that it is not lower quality. Sometimes a company may be able to hold a tighter tolerance, and still charge less. Especially if the parts are "easy" for them to deal with. For example, the company that "fits" our pump parts, deals with tolerances 5 times more accurate than we require on these parts. To these guys, 25 millionths of an inch is a clearance (and 5 millionths tolerance) on some parts. So the fact that we have a tolerance of that same 25 millionths makes our parts "easy" for them. These same guys deal with parts very similar to ours every day of the year for the aerospace industry. I am sure that most of, or all the pumps that come to market will have no more clearance than the .0002" that the factory parts have. Some companies measure in metric, so let me tell you that 1 Micron is equal to a little over 39.37 millionths of an inch. So in essence (sp?) our tolerance is ~.635 Microns.
In short, the fuel pump won't increase the peak hp. capacity of stock turbo cars, but it will allow more aggressive tunes at lower RPM. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I think that's a pretty good start towards an education on the new FSI rail pumps that will be coming to market soon.


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## 20th-Hole (Feb 3, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_To these guys, 25 millionths of an inch is a clearance (and 5 millionths tolerance) on some parts. So the fact that we have a tolerance of that same 25 millionths makes our parts "easy" for them. These same guys deal with parts very similar to ours every day of the year for the aerospace industry. I am sure that most of, or all the pumps that come to market will have no more clearance than the .0002" that the factory parts have. Some companies measure in metric, so let me tell you that 1 Micron is equal to a little over 39.37 millionths of an inch. So in essence (sp?) our tolerance is ~.635 Microns.


I’m still having trouble understanding your tolerances. When you say .635 microns might you be referring to a surface finish? 
I doubt a piston with a .635 micron clearance would run freely, let alone at 10,000 cpm. Machining capabilities aside, a temperature difference of 5 deg C would cause the part to seize.
Even a clearance of .0002 seems too tight for a part that cycles so fast. I'd expect closer to .001 to allow for proper lubrication along the piston and any thermal expansion.
Not trying to be a pain, your info looks good otherwise.


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## Sincity (May 17, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (20th-Hole)*

Have it made in China http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You can pay them less than a $5 an hour for technical work.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Sincity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sincity* »_Have it made in China http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You can pay them less than a $5 an hour for technical work.









If the quality and controls are there, then why not!!!
Anyone actually read the theory behind the post? I didn't think so. We have seen some tuners "pre-load" to 130bar evidenced by some logs posted in this very forum. This is the same tuner that vehemently denied J.Moss's excellent and original post that revealed the fuel cut to the world.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
If the quality and controls are there, then why not!!!
Anyone actually read the theory behind the post? I didn't think so. We have seen some tuners "pre-load" to 130bar evidenced by some logs posted in this very forum. This is the same tuner that vehemently denied J.Moss's excellent and original post that revealed the fuel cut to the world.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Nope. Preloading is different than sustaining . . . . as you can see there is ZERO preload.








Why do they do this? To keep the stock injector on-times closer to specification.








Then again, you might know this if you actually owned a MKV. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Dave


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (20th-Hole)*

Your theories are just like mine... untill I tried to put them into practice! 25 millionths, or .635 microns is the tolerance we are able to hold, not the clearance! FYI, the stock pump has around .0002", or roughly 7 Microns clearance. There is alot of developement that went into this pump. The hardest thing is keeping the concentricity of all the parts within spec, not the diametrical tolerances!


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
If the quality and controls are there, then why not!!!
Anyone actually read the theory behind the post? I didn't think so. We have seen some tuners "pre-load" to 130bar evidenced by some logs posted in this very forum. This is the same tuner that vehemently denied J.Moss's excellent and original post that revealed the fuel cut to the world.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

it is certainly not preloading. it is using the ability of the me9 ems to raise the requested fuel pressure in the rail to 130 bar. this is simply being better at the controls found in the ems than other aftermarkets have been able to thus far.
at the time that we discovered this is when we released stage 2 beta for the o6 trvs 2.0T's that made more power and torque in the mid and low rpm's to take advantage of the extra fuel. we have now incorporated this into all stage 2 codes and all stage 1 codes 07 model year forward.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*

Thanks for the info. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ZWStewart (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Then again, you might know this if you actually owned a MKV. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Dave

Just b/c a car isn't titled in his name doesn't mean that he doesn't have 100%access to a mkv 2.0tfsi gti.


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*

True http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , Having the ability to control fuel pressure within the ECU is great. There are other companies that have learned the curve for load vs. fuel pressure too though, but not all of them! Is that fuel pressure curve that crew219 posted requested or actual pressure?


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_True http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , Having the ability to control fuel pressure within the ECU is great. There are other companies that have learned the curve for load vs. fuel pressure too though, but not all of them! Is that fuel pressure curve that crew219 posted requested or actual pressure? 

actual


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (crew219)*

thank you.


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## REFisher (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (crew219)*

Both APR and Autotech are doing great things for the Dub community THX and keep up the good work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Davespeed (May 4, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (REFisher)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Davespeed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ Re: APR 2.0T FSI Fuel Pump ([email protected]) » « » 8:05 PM 7-19-2007 

See what happens when I go out of town! The marketing material gets all out of whack! 7 microns is not a tolerance, it is something else. Either way it shouldn't be on any marketing material. Please ignore. I am not going to give away our actual tolerances as those are proprietary but I will say that they are far tighter than any tolerances being quoted by anyone on these forums. (The tolerances vary based on what part and dimension you are looking at but the tight tolerances are really, really tight!) Naturally these tolerance are well within the capabilities of our manufacturing partner but it still isn't cheap! The less critical parts are made in house on our Mazak lathe.
As for cost, there are reasons. First of all, if we just wanted to release a handful of parts we could have done this last year. The design had already been tested for thousands of miles at that point and was proven. The issue with this product is ensuring that every single pump installed is 100% because a single bad part can spell disaster. QUALITY, QUALITY, QUALITY! Anyone here who is familiar with quality control especially when dealing with highly critical, incredibly precise parts understands this problem.
Let me briefly explain what will happen if a high pressure pump fails. These are not "scare tactics". This is an honest explanation of the damage that can occur if one of these pumps go bad! There are several scenarios and none are particularly pretty. In the best scenario, the fuel pump will simply seize on the down stroke. This will simply cause the engine to stall. The fuel pump can be removed and replaced. Another scenario would be the fuel pump seizing on the up stroke. This is a lot worse. This will cause a mechanical failure of the either the pump body, retaining bolts or it will break the intake camshaft in half (remember, the high pressure pump is directly driven off of the intake camshaft.) We have never tested this failure so I can't tell you which one will break first but in any case one of them will. Either of these scenarios can happen if the plunger to barrel clearance is not perfect or if there is some other geometric fault in the assembly. This is not something that can be verified by eye or by feel. We prevent these two situations by certifying ever single plunger/barrel assembly and by testing every single pump that leaves our facility. If there is a problem, we will catch it! Every single pump endures a testing cycle that includes being run at engine redline and full system pressure.
Another potential high pressure pump failure is leakage of fuel into the engine. This is a potentially catastrophic failure. Since the pump is cam driven, one side of the fuel pump has direct access to the engine's oiling system. If fuel leaks past the fuel pump into the engine, the fuel can dilute the engine oil. The driver may have no clue that this is occuring until it is too late. It does not take a tremendous amount of fuel to dilute the engine oil to the point that the oil loses its lubrication properties. When this occurs you can loses bearings, camshafts, lifters, turbochargers- basically time for a new engine. How can this occur? Very simply. A slight error during assembly and the seal is damaged. A faulty seal can also do this. Even just torquing the retaining nut to the wrong torque can distort the bore of the pump just enough to cause a failure. A tiny amount of extra clearance on the plunger/barrel and the seal won't be able to hold back the pressure (remember, one side of the piston can see up to almost 2000 psi.) There is only one way to verify that this won't happen. Test the pumps before they are put on cars!
It has been stated that the fuel pump parts are so easy to replace, so why not let the end user do it? Why don't hard drive manufacturers sell replacement platters for do it yourself installation? Heck, there is only like four screws holding a hard drive together? The answer is simple- it is way, way to easy to screw it up and the implications are potentially disastrous. And even if you didn't screw it up you don't know for absolute sure that the pump is good until you put it on the car and test it. We found this concept absolutely entirely unacceptable. Believe me, if we thought it was acceptable we would have done it- it would have eliminated a great deal of work in testing and certifying the pumps and we could definitely have sold the pumps for less (and probably many more of them)!
Our high pressure fuel pump tester takes care of the problem of verifying the pumps. This was a large engineering undertaking! I won't bore you with too many of the details (we will write an article on the tester soon) but all of the mechanicals and electronics are custom. It is an impressive machine. This was by far the most difficult portion of this project.
Anyways, every pump is tested and we have enacted numerous quality measures to ensure that we will have a 100% success rate with these pumps so that you guys won't have any problems. Every pump begins with a brand new OEM pump. This affects the cost of course. In the future we hope to have a rebuild program where people can send in their original pumps and we perform the modifications. This will help cost. We will also work to get the cost down in other areas as we ramp the production quantities up.
I hope I haven't scared anyone away from a high pressure pump upgrade. I am 100% confident in our product. It really is a great upgrade and it paves the way for many more exciting performance upgrades in the future!


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

How about a core charge? You buy the high pressure pump from apr and pay full price. You send your OEM pump back (pre-paid shipping of course lol) and get a core charge refund?


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_How about a core charge? You buy the high pressure pump from apr and pay full price. You send your OEM pump back (pre-paid shipping of course lol) and get a core charge refund?

If the tolerances are as critical as APR and Autotech have claimed, I sure as heck wouldn't want to buy a pump that was assembled from someone else's core return!


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
If the tolerances are as critical as APR and Autotech have claimed, I sure as heck wouldn't want to buy a pump that was assembled from someone else's core return!

yeah, we are discussing you sending in your pump for assembly and getting your pump back. however, the testing and qc program we have instituted will eliminate the fear of getting a bad core.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
yeah, we are discussing you sending in your pump for assembly and getting your pump back. however, the testing and qc program we have instituted will eliminate the fear of getting a bad core.

Let's hope do. What kind of garauntee can we expect with these pumps?


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
If the tolerances are as critical as APR and Autotech have claimed, I sure as heck wouldn't want to buy a pump that was assembled from someone else's core return!

not to mention the possiblity of the electrical connection on the top failing . . . .
Dave


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## A3_yuppie (Jun 5, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
we have now incorporated this into all stage 2 codes and all stage 1 codes 07 model year forward.

Why is the 130bar feature not incorporated into Stage 1 reflash for MY 2006 2.0T FSI?


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

Well, let's see, where do I start... 
I would stack up our pump against an OE pump in a comparison of fit, finish, craftsmanship, etc... We haven't had a failure yet with a production spec pump. No oil dilution, no stuck pistons, ... nada. We will offer the installation of our kit in YOUR pump for $50 extra. In the end, the consumers will have to decide if they want to pay an inflated price, or not...
I would love to see another aftermarket company that will hold the tolerances that we are on these pump parts! From the OEM pumps that I have measured, Hitachi's parts vary more than ours!


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

What kind of warranty and / or damage coverage will autotech be providing should one of their pumps fail?


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## GRN6IX (Jan 2, 2003)

So what's the projected release date for your (Autotech) pump "rebuild kit" (my own term)?


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## KingofCancer (Oct 8, 2005)

obviously apr has sw, what about autotech? is there something software specific relative to autotech's pump?


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_Well, let's see, where do I start... 
I would stack up our pump against an OE pump in a comparison of fit, finish, craftsmanship, etc... We haven't had a failure yet with a production spec pump. No oil dilution, no stuck pistons, ... nada. We will offer the installation of our kit in YOUR pump for $50 extra. In the end, the consumers will have to decide if they want to pay an inflated price, or not...
I would love to see another aftermarket company that will hold the tolerances that we are on these pump parts! From the OEM pumps that I have measured, Hitachi's parts vary more than ours!

Ill chime in a little on this subject. My company manufactures gasoline direct injection pumps for mercedes, and diesel fuel injection pumps for dozens of OEM customers. 
We would never ever consider shipping a pump that has not been run through a series of delivery, and leakage tests on a calibrated test bench. It is the standard practice for every pump and is demanded by OEM customers. 
The tight tolerances, and the stackup of tolerances leave much room for error. With extremely tight straightness, roundness, surface finish, squareness, parallelism, and concentricity these parts are very difficult to manufacture. Even with millions of dollars in measurement and inspection equipment the infant mortality can be quite significant. - This applies to everyone trying to make these parts. The earlier you admit that you can not make these 100% without failure the better off you will be. Testing is the only solution. 

Plunger seizures, lip seal failures can be very damaging to the engine on the cam driven applications.
Internal leakage, Inadequate or excessive plunger clearances, excessive dead volume can cause variation in pump delivery outside of the specifications. This can make rail pressure control erratic causing closed loop control difficulty, and overpressure conditions particularly at idle speeds where the valve is controlled in a very narrow operating range. 
Debris is a serious concern with these pumps. These pumps are assembled in hospital like clean rooms. Everyone wears hair nets, booties on their shoes, special down draft air filtration, ultra sonic cleaning lines. This is not something I would recommend for the average enthusiast.


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

We have not finalized all the details on our product's warrany. When we do, I will definitely post it here.


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: (GRN6IX)*

Our Hi-volume Fuel Rail Pump kit is expected to be shipping to customers the last week of August.


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: (KingofCancer)*

In the very near future, there will be fuel pump specific software available from all three of the main ECU tuners. Once the software is available, we will then verify the compatability of the pump and software from each tuner. At the moment, REVO has a couple developement pumps so that they can begin tuning to maximize the engines capabilities with the new larger pump. 
Our pump is not software specific per se...


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## HYPERGUY710 (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_In the very near future, there will be fuel pump specific software available from all three of the main ECU tuners. Once the software is available, we will then verify the compatability of the pump and software from each tuner. At the moment, REVO has a couple developement pumps so that they can begin tuning to maximize the engines capabilities with the new larger pump. 
Our pump is not software specific per se...

thats the best news ever....


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (HYPERGUY710)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HYPERGUY710* »_
thats the best news ever....









My A3 has several thousands of miles of abuse with this pump installed in it with no issues. Including running it out of fuel. 
I suggest not playing with a continental GT when the fuel light is on and the nearest service area is 10 miles away








We started some software development for the pump in my A3 and were having excellent results. The pump is also installed in several other REVO test vehicles and we are in the process of developing specific software for it.
Several comments have been made that I have come across about a car not operating properly with the pump and special software, that is not an issue I came across on my vehicle.


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## Sincity (May 17, 2005)

*Re: (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_In the very near future, there will be fuel pump specific software available from all three of the main ECU tuners. Once the software is available, we will then verify the compatability of the pump and software from each tuner.

I wonder if APR will offer the free upgrade using a competitor's pump? There was a question on APR's thread asking the same thing that went unanswered.


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## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
Ill chime in a little on this subject. My company manufactures gasoline direct injection pumps for mercedes, and diesel fuel injection pumps for dozens of OEM customers. 
We would never ever consider shipping a pump that has not been run through a series of delivery, and leakage tests on a calibrated test bench. It is the standard practice for every pump and is demanded by OEM customers. 
The tight tolerances, and the stackup of tolerances leave much room for error. With extremely tight straightness, roundness, surface finish, squareness, parallelism, and concentricity these parts are very difficult to manufacture. Even with millions of dollars in measurement and inspection equipment the infant mortality can be quite significant. - This applies to everyone trying to make these parts. The earlier you admit that you can not make these 100% without failure the better off you will be. Testing is the only solution. 

Plunger seizures, lip seal failures can be very damaging to the engine on the cam driven applications.
Internal leakage, Inadequate or excessive plunger clearances, excessive dead volume can cause variation in pump delivery outside of the specifications. This can make rail pressure control erratic causing closed loop control difficulty, and overpressure conditions particularly at idle speeds where the valve is controlled in a very narrow operating range. 
Debris is a serious concern with these pumps. These pumps are assembled in hospital like clean rooms. Everyone wears hair nets, booties on their shoes, special down draft air filtration, ultra sonic cleaning lines. This is not something I would recommend for the average enthusiast. 



Interesting how a post by an industry insider goes completely ignored and unaddressed! Even if the company manufacturing the parts does the assembly that does not ensure that the pump will not have problems! It must be tested!



_Modified by [email protected] at 12:20 PM 7-25-2007_


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## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_I would love to see another aftermarket company that will hold the tolerances that we are on these pump parts!

Well then you would love to see our pump because our pumps are manufactured with tolerances much tighter than the tolerances that you have stated (and of course we test our pumps too.)


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I sure would, send one over would ya...







Oh, you can make all the digs you want Brett, all it's been doing is turning off some of your potential customers. Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

How was that a dig? You started by saying that no one can hold the tolerances that you can...well APR says they can.


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## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I sure would, send one over would ya...







Oh, you can make all the digs you want Brett, all it's been doing is turning off some of your potential customers. Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Very true http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I sure would, send one over would ya...







Oh, you can make all the digs you want Brett, all it's been doing is turning off some of your potential customers. Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ItalianGLI (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (syntrix)*

I'd rather go with a company that has balls to come out and say that their products are better than the competition, that just tells me they are confident in what they produce and sell http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
That's obviously my own opinion though


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (ItalianGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ItalianGLI* »_I'd rather go with a company that has balls to come out and say that their products are better than the competition, that just tells me they are confident in what they produce and sell http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
That's obviously my own opinion though









Every company here comes out and says they are better then the next guy, thats kind of the point of making a post here.


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## bigred35 (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Well then you would love to see our pump because our pumps are manufactured with tolerances much tighter than the tolerances that you have stated (and of course we test our pumps too.)

I love hearsay! Fortunately for Autotech, the company that can produce a necessary part quicker, better or cheaper usually gets the most attention/sales.
My tolerance is smaller than yours!!! HAHAHAHAH!


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## goin2fast (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (bigred35)*

I have very little tolerance.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (bigred35)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigred35* »_
I love hearsay! Fortunately for Autotech, the company that can produce a necessary part quicker, better or cheaper usually gets the most attention/sales.
My tolerance is smaller than yours!!! HAHAHAHAH!









Well according to the industry insider, with out proper testing and assembly in a clean room, you could do serious damage so quicker just means no testing.
Remember when the Russians were the first to get a man in outerspace? Well, the Americans could have before them, but waited because they didn't want to risk killing the guy.


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## ItalianGLI (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Every company here comes out and says they are better then the next guy, thats kind of the point of making a post here.

lol, yeah


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (bigred35)(Arin)*

Come on guys... that's enough.








Arin, you would be mistaken if you think there is no testing behind our pump.


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## r-compound (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (bigred35)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigred35* »_
I love hearsay! Fortunately for Autotech, the company that can produce a necessary part quicker, better or cheaper usually gets the most attention/sales.
My tolerance is smaller than yours!!! HAHAHAHAH!









didn't we find out years ago that you work for autotech?


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_Come on guys... that's enough.








Arin, you would be mistaken if you think there is no testing behind our pump. 

From talking with you and APR I'm under the impression that APR builds and tests their Fuel Pump on a vehicle before sending it out to the customer. The Autotech version, which costs much less, is essentially the same in many ways, however the end user is required to assemble the parts in the pump before installing and testing it on their own vehicle. My concern later arose when industry insiders (not autotech or APR) pointed out the dangers of an end user doing the build and install. I'm sure you quality control the parts you send to us, but the crucial assembly and final, potentially catastrophic test will be preformed on our own vehicles as soon as we start them up for the first time. I understand there is always a risk with modifying anything on the vehicle, but this seems to be one that could be very difficult to detect and could be extremely detrimental to the engine. Was I mistaken?

_Quote »_
Debris is a serious concern with these pumps. These pumps are assembled in hospital like clean rooms. Everyone wears hair nets, booties on their shoes, special down draft air filtration, ultra sonic cleaning lines. This is not something I would recommend for the average enthusiast.


I know I for one do not have a clean room or anything near it for that matter. If we are talking about tiny particles causing problems, I know I can't risk it.



_Modified by Arin at 12:50 PM 7-25-2007_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
From talking with you and APR I'm under the impression that APR builds and tests their Fuel Pump on a vehicle before sending it out to the customer. The Autotech version, which costs much less, is essentially the same in many ways, however the end user is required to assemble the parts in the pump before installing and testing it on their own vehicle. My concern later arose when industry insiders (not autotech or APR) pointed out the dangers of an end user doing the build and install. I'm sure you quality control the parts you send to us, but the crucial assembly and final, potentially catastrophic test will be preformed on our own vehicles as soon as we start them up for the first time. I understand there is always a risk with modifying anything on the vehicle, but this seems to be one that could be very difficult to detect and could be extremely detrimental to the engine. Was I mistaken?
I know I for one do not have a clean room or anything near it for that matter. If we are talking about tiny particles causing problems, I know I can't risk it.
_Modified by Arin at 12:50 PM 7-25-2007_
I think we should wait and see exactly what the pump is and what assembly entails. Me, I can't quite picture what's in there, I just can't see any half decent company leaving it up to the end user to assemble a part if they weren't sure it was simple enough. If ya don't trust yourself then you probably are a candidate for APRs pump
I don't know about the clean room thing either. I'm sure the OEMs do this because that's what they do. You have to figure that a fuel pump is constantly pushing fuel through it that even after the filtration has to carry more debris than the air in your living room.
This may have been asked an answered, but you can run the upgraded pump with current softwares right?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
From talking with you and APR I'm under the impression that APR builds and tests their Fuel Pump on a vehicle before sending it out to the customer. The Autotech version, which costs much less, is essentially the same in many ways, however the end user is required to assemble the parts in the pump before installing and testing it on their own vehicle. My concern later arose when industry insiders (not autotech or APR) pointed out the dangers of an end user doing the build and install. I'm sure you quality control the parts you send to us, but the crucial assembly and final, potentially catastrophic test will be preformed on our own vehicles as soon as we start them up for the first time. I understand there is always a risk with modifying anything on the vehicle, but this seems to be one that could be very difficult to detect and could be extremely detrimental to the engine. Was I mistaken?


APR is claiming to assemble the kits in a clean room and then bench test them. There has not been proof that this is the actual practice as the parts are a month off from being shipped.
The industry insider is also a long standing APR customer. While he does know what he is talking about as he is in the industry, he is not 100% impartial here. That needs to be considered, along with the fact that his company is also possibly supplying some of the parts APR uses in these applications.
The fuel pump I am using for testing on my personal vehicle was taken apart over a year ago and sitting in a box floating between my house, office and shop. It was cleaned put back together with the Autotech parts and hours later driven 2K miles round trip, halfway through that trip it was even run dry (whoops). Was care taken assembling the pump, of course. Do I know what I am doing, yes. But everyone is capable of taking care or finding someone with the skill to install the pump.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I think we should wait and see exactly what the pump is and what assembly entails. Me, I can't quite picture what's in there, I just can't see any half decent company leaving it up to the end user to assemble a part if they weren't sure it was simple enough. 

Starting with a completely disassembled pump and taking pictures it took me no more then 10 minutes to put it all together. Had I started with a fully intact pump maybe 2 minute to swap parts.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Starting with a completely disassembled pump and taking pictures it took me no more then 10 minutes to put it all together. Had I started with a fully intact pump maybe 2 minute to swap parts.
That's how they will do it tho right? A kit that you assemble yourself out of the old pump?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Starting with a completely disassembled pump and taking pictures it took me no more then 10 minutes to put it all together. Had I started with a fully intact pump maybe 2 minute to swap parts.

Could you post up the photos? I'm curious how assembly looks.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Could you post up the photos? I'm curious how assembly looks.

My photos contain pics of the Autotech pieces which they have asked at this point I do not post online. I am looking for my box of pumps and I will take some of how it all goes together. Duh just realized my camera is in my truck and I carpooled this morning, I will try and take some this evening when I get home or tomorrow. Even without seeing their parts it will be obvious as to how it all goes together as it is 99% the same.


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_That's how they will do it tho right? A kit that you assemble yourself out of the old pump? 

Yes, I was shipped a preliminary kit consisting of about 5 pieces. I do not want to go into too much detail of what you get until Autotech says it is ok as they are the manufactures of the parts and they have been kind enough to involve us in some of the testing.


----------



## bigred35 (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (r-compound)*


_Quote, originally posted by *r-compound* »_
didn't we find out years ago that you work for autotech?









You would be wrong in that statement.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_Come on guys... that's enough.








Arin, you would be mistaken if you think there is no testing behind our pump. 

for the sake of people who are gonna buy this i hope there is more testing that goes into this then went into your lightweight swaybar that snaps after 3 weeks of use........ i really do.


----------



## Sincity (May 17, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Remember when the Russians were the first to get a man in outerspace? Well, the Americans could have before them, but waited because they didn't want to risk killing the guy. 

Didn't they send a monkey up first? Oh....I hope no one is from PETA here. Sorry....need to stay on subject.










_Modified by Sincity at 3:32 PM 7-25-2007_


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Sincity)*

Ok, poop slinging monkeys to each others corners for a second, huh?
All attacking each others products is doing is going to cost both of you immediate business. All of this negative PR (hence forth to be referred to as poop) being thrown around people like myself are left not knowing wtf to believe cause- hey- we don't make nor know anything about making direct injection pumps. So what does that mean for the tuning companies who have made these products? We're going to wait and see how these things perform in the real world.
Alot of this is childish and most of it is unprovable poop. Why do you all feel the need to continually berate each other? Say what you want to say and let it prove itself out... this consistant back and forth is like reading a videogame message board for PvP players.
Bottom line, grow up.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*

I see little berating and such. I'm looking for info so its good to see each company backing up their products. I'm glad they challenge each other. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (Arin)*

You'd have to be pretty out of touch with reality if you can't pick up on the underlying pissing contests going on here. It's gone way beyond informed debate and frankly I think it's getting a little old. This type of drama has picked up significantly over the past year or so since the MkV has been around.
All it does is hurt the community.
I mean does anyone really expect Autotech to release a fuel pump that fails most of the time? That's the feeling I get from reading APR posts.


----------



## NAMotorsports (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_You'd have to be pretty out of touch with reality if you can't pick up on the underlying pissing contests going on here. It's gone way beyond informed debate and frankly I think it's getting a little old. This type of drama has picked up significantly over the past year or so since the MkV has been around.
All it does is hurt the community.
I mean does anyone really expect Autotech to release a fuel pump that fails most of the time? That's the feeling I get from reading APR posts.

I hear ya! I'm all for deleting all threads in the 2.0T Technical forum and starting over!! Or better yet, no 2.0T Tech forum at all, since its 'technically' just a bunch of bull**** anyway!


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
I mean does anyone really expect Autotech to release a fuel pump that fails most of the time? That's the feeling I get from reading APR posts.

If it is anything like their lightweight swaybars which are also half the cost of a good sway abr i.e (H&R). YES
Except in this case you dont just go under your car and bolt up another one, you go under your hood pull the engine and bolt up another one. And in this case im sure they are not ging to send you a free one for you troubles like they do with sway bars. On emight think how foolproof can the process of making an alluminum pipe can be.
That may sound negative but it is the reality here. Believe me a I am as tempted as other may be with the low price tag but there must be a reasons other than the provision of core.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_You'd have to be pretty out of touch with reality if you can't pick up on the underlying pissing contests going on here. It's gone way beyond informed debate and frankly I think it's getting a little old. This type of drama has picked up significantly over the past year or so since the MkV has been around.
All it does is hurt the community.
I mean does anyone really expect Autotech to release a fuel pump that fails most of the time? That's the feeling I get from reading APR posts.

APR's position is that ONE failure is more than we would like to see so our point is that we do EVERYTHING possible to ensure that will never happen.
Also, we will have some pics of the pumps on the fuel test bench in the near future.


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
APR's position is that ONE failure is more than we would like to see so our point is that we do EVERYTHING possible to ensure that will never happen.
Also, we will have some pics of the pumps on the fuel test bench in the near future.

Your missing my point bro... why keep going at it like an overly tenacious rabid dog? It's not a secret you guys don't think Autotech's pump is not up to par.. let it lay already, either you're going to be proven right over time or proven wrong. It's not like Autotech is going to throw up their arms and be like, "Oh well, APR doesn't aprove, let's close up shop guys, we're just no good at this tuning thing" if you just keep telling them their manufacturing methods and testing suck over and over again.
As if anyone here really takes what an army of APR reps says as unbiased.
Edit: Let me be clear on this, I'm not saying I like Autotech over APR or commenting on either pump. I'm merely saying that the poop is stacked way to high repeatidly on this forum and this is a good example of it.


_Modified by BumbleBeeJBG at 1:03 PM 7-25-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
Your missing my point bro... why keep going at it like an overly tenacious rabid dog? It's not a secret you guys don't think Autotech's pump is not up to par.. let it lay already, either you're going to be proven right over time or proven wrong. It's not like Autotech is going to throw up their arms and be like, "Oh well, APR doesn't aprove, let's close up shop guys, we're just no good at this tuning thing" if you just keep telling them their manufacturing methods and testing suck over and over again.
As if anyone here really takes what an army of APR reps says as unbiased.
Edit: Let me be clear on this, I'm not saying I like Autotech over APR or commenting on either pump. I'm merely saying that the poop is stacked way to high repeatidly on this forum and this is a good example of it.

_Modified by BumbleBeeJBG at 1:03 PM 7-25-2007_

I don't really see it that way. I have convinced many "industry insiders" of how real engineering works by letting them experience our products and learn how engineers do it. I agree that sometimes it may seem like poop, but engineering principles are engineering principles nontheless!








Being quite possibly the only aftermarket company in this market in North America that employs a staff of accredited engineers, there are alot of misconceptions prevalent. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I don't really see it that way. I have convinced many "industry insiders" of how real engineering works by letting them experience our products and learn how engineers do it. I agree that sometimes it may seem like poop, but engineering principles are engineering principles nontheless!








Being quite possibly the only aftermarket company in this market in North America that employs a staff of accredited engineers, there are alot of misconceptions prevalent. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Most of the aftermarket parts on my car related to performance are APR. I'll stand behind your products as being reliable and I would think it has alot to do with the people behind the products.
That being said, you're still flinging poop. There's no reason to get involved here with a back and forth match with Autotech. If your product is superior and that's why it costs more money, don't you think that'll prove itself out in the short term?
Are you really that threatened by Autotech that you need [email protected] here to put them down?


----------



## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

_Quote »_Being quite possibly the only aftermarket company in this market in North America that employs a staff of accredited engineers, there are alot of misconceptions prevalent.

EL OH EL. Thanks Keith, I had forgotten that no other aftermarket companies employ engineers. What school did you go to again?


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Robin @ Revo Technik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Robin @ Revo Technik* »_
EL OH EL. Thanks Keith, I had forgotten that no other aftermarket companies employ engineers. What school did you go to again?

yeah, how's nick doing as head of R&D for you guys? He was a sales dept. employee here. Did he get degrees in engineering after he left here?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
Most of the aftermarket parts on my car related to performance are APR. I'll stand behind your products as being reliable and I would think it has alot to do with the people behind the products.
That being said, you're still flinging poop. There's no reason to get involved here with a back and forth match with Autotech. If your product is superior and that's why it costs more money, don't you think that'll prove itself out in the short term?
Are you really that threatened by Autotech that you need [email protected] here to put them down?

I haven't attacked them on a personal level at all. I've merely posted technical info in regards to a debate about the manufacturing of FSI fuel pumps.


----------



## bigred35 (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I haven't attacked them on a personal level at all. I've merely posted technical info in regards to a debate about the manufacturing of FSI fuel pumps.

-yeah, how's nick doing as head of R&D for you guys? He was a sales dept. employee here. Did he get degrees in engineering after he left here?
Confusion?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

What happened with that lawsuit between APR and REVO again?


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (bigred35)*

Wow Keith, calling out someone from a companies R&D department and questioning there fitness at there job sounds like a personal attack to me.
This really saddens me. APR turns out some great products, why be so childish.
Doesn't matter, some admin will come here and clean up your mess so you won't look that bad for too long.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
yeah, how's nick doing as head of R&D for you guys? He was a sales dept. employee here. Did he get degrees in engineering after he left here?
That settles it for me, I swear to Christ I'll never buy anything from APR. All your bickering makes you look like a child, and I wouldn't buy **** I put on my car from children.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_Wow Keith, calling out someone from a companies R&D department and questioning there fitness at there job sounds like a personal attack to me.
This really saddens me. APR turns out some great products, why be so childish.
Doesn't matter, some admin will come here and clean up your mess so you won't look that bad for too long.

oh, that was in regards to Revo. I have no issues with Autotech whatsoever, but Revo on the other hand......


_Modified by [email protected] at 2:56 PM 7-25-2007_


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I find fact more compelling than childish bickering.
All Keith has done is state fact. It's not like he's going around calling anything or anyone else names. Truth can be painful at times.


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_I find fact more compelling than childish bickering.
All Keith has done is state fact. It's not like he's going around calling anything or anyone else names. Truth can be painful at times.

He just called Revo thieves.
The truth isn't painful enough to cut through the fact that you can't read.


----------



## davebs14 (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Wow...I"m not sure what to say. I'd say just post the best description of your products and let the public decide. If I want to know why APR says theirs is better I"ll call and talk to them. They're quite helpful. If I want to find out why the cheaper Autotech one is just as good I"d call revo.
Leave the pissing matches to the ricers in the Hondas with their fartpipes.
I don't have much on my car. I just got an APR chip as of now. I went with it because I plan on running my car 200K miles and I want it to last. If I was leasing my car I would have gone revo and not cared. I was told by other Mk5 owners what each company's program does well. 
Most of us take advice and data from the companies and make our own decisions. 
I'm not trying to build the fastest most bada$$ FSI around. Just the car I want and I like. So it will have a mix of companies parts on it and I'll love it.
And someday I'll get a new fuel pump I'd imagine. And I'll take what data I have and experiences from customers and make my decision.
Oh I also have an Autotech exhaust on the car (magnaflow). I love it.


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
He just called Revo thieves.
The truth isn't painful enough to cut through the fact that you can't read.

Its fact that Revo stole APR technology, hence the lawsuit.


----------



## r-compound (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (bigred35)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigred35* »_
You would be wrong in that statement. 

Why do you keep IM'ing me about it then ?
Odd that all of your 'watched topics' are all ones where you jump in and say things like 'Yeah Autotech!' 
Searching the archive for 'bigred35' and '[email protected]' turns up some fun stuff... Ralph @ Autotech certainly seemed to think that you worked for him. 
Anyway, got my popcorn -- back to the fuel pump mudslinging.


----------



## Davespeed (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*

Wow... I'd give Autotech my money before APR.








People work for many different jobs and gain knowledge and use it. Someone got sued this time. Everyone does it.







Deny it. But it happens. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## r-compound (Feb 2, 2004)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
Its fact that Revo stole APR technology, hence the lawsuit.

if it was that clear cut, the lawsuit would be over, no?
best to see how it turns out, rather than listening to opinions, right?


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
Its fact that Revo stole APR technology, hence the lawsuit.

Well then let's talk about the implications that only APR can tune properly in North America cause they are the only ones to employ 'real' engineers. Is that a verifiable technical fact relating to Autotech's fuel pump?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
Well then let's talk about the implications that only APR can tune properly in North America cause they are the only ones to employ 'real' engineers. Is that a verifiable technical fact relating to Autotech's fuel pump?

Not at all, Keith even said he had no issues with autotech...the comment was directed towards Revo.


----------



## slow85golf (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*








this is getting good well lets put those engineers to work on my pm i sent you keith lol...


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
Not at all, Keith even said he had no issues with autotech...the comment was directed towards Revo.

He said that in response to what he said about one if their R&D guys.
His comment about engineers was directed at all of north america. So unless of course Revo represents all of this side of the pond...
Not that any of it matters, it will all be deleted in a few hours once an admin comes across it.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*

For all of those engineers they have, it really doesn't seem like they can put out a product much better or any faster than anyone else. Damn sure isn't any cheaper.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (davebs14)*


_Quote, originally posted by *davebs14* »_Wow...I"m not sure what to say. I'd say just post the best description of your products and let the public decide. If I want to know why APR says theirs is better I"ll call and talk to them. They're quite helpful. If I want to find out why the cheaper Autotech one is just as good I"d call revo.
Leave the pissing matches to the ricers in the Hondas with their fartpipes.
I don't have much on my car. I just got an APR chip as of now. I went with it because I plan on running my car 200K miles and I want it to last. If I was leasing my car I would have gone revo and not cared. I was told by other Mk5 owners what each company's program does well. 
Most of us take advice and data from the companies and make our own decisions. 
I'm not trying to build the fastest most bada$$ FSI around. Just the car I want and I like. So it will have a mix of companies parts on it and I'll love it.
And someday I'll get a new fuel pump I'd imagine. And I'll take what data I have and experiences from customers and make my decision.
Oh I also have an Autotech exhaust on the car (magnaflow). I love it.

I agree and I have edited my post. I agree to be more p.c. I'm tired of the bickering as well honestly. I am just tired of certain forum members rehashing old posts over and over again. The egt issue, etc.


----------



## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

*Hey Autotech!* I was thinking about this pump....but first I need to confirm that your rear sway, is upgraded and not* defective*. I bought mine 2 weeks ago...







Thanks!


----------



## bigred35 (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: (sasha18T)*

Call them or PM the R&D guys instead. No sense in dragging any one else here through the mud.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Here is a photo of the pump internals for those who are interested. The parts appear relatively simple, however they are very difficult to machine. 








The main components on the right are what will need to be removed and replaced with new hardware to increase the bore of the pump. All of the tolerances need to be just right to prevent siezure, leakage, side loading, and wear. 
Neither myself or my company provide any production components to APR or any other aftermarket FSI company.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sasha18T* »_*Hey Autotech!* I was thinking about this pump....but first I need to confirm that your rear sway, is upgraded and not* defective*. I bought mine 2 weeks ago...







Thanks!
That really is an off topic blow......

_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Here is a photo of the pump internals for those who are interested. The parts appear relatively simple, however they are very difficult to machine. 








The main components on the right are what will need to be removed and replaced with new hardware to increase the bore of the pump. All of the tolerances need to be just right to prevent siezure, leakage, side loading, and wear. 
Neither myself or my company provide any production components to APR or any other aftermarket FSI company. 




I think I can handle that


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Thanks for the photo


----------



## Sincity (May 17, 2005)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
Its fact that Revo stole APR technology, hence the lawsuit.

That blows! 
Any word if APR will allow a reflash if using competitor's pump?


----------



## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: (sasha18T)*

Sent you an IM.


----------



## davebs14 (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: (enginerd)*

If I knew my a$$ from a hole in the ground I might have something more to say other than... cool! shiny!









_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Here is a photo of the pump internals for those who are interested. The parts appear relatively simple, however they are very difficult to machine. 








The main components on the right are what will need to be removed and replaced with new hardware to increase the bore of the pump. All of the tolerances need to be just right to prevent siezure, leakage, side loading, and wear. 
Neither myself or my company provide any production components to APR or any other aftermarket FSI company.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I think I can handle that

Not so fast sparky.Ever got hit by a pressure washer?1500+psi pf pressure is not something to be messing around with.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Not so fast sparky.Ever got hit by a pressure washer?1500+psi pf pressure is not something to be messing around with.


Thats the case of both kids and a definite concern of mine. I hope both provide extensive directions on bleeding the systems so no one blows off their face. Even this manual lists the danger:
http://www.arinahnell.com/other/engine.pdf


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Arin)*

1500 psi is for wimps. So long as the engine is not running there will be little residual energy/pressure in the rail. There is some leak down after a few hours, and just cracking the fitting loose (but not removing completely) can bleed down the system without injecting anyone.


----------



## ZWStewart (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_1500 psi is for wimps. So long as the engine is not running there will be little residual energy/pressure in the rail. There is some leak down after a few hours, and just cracking the fitting loose (but not removing completely) can bleed down the system without injecting anyone. 



That is exactly how I removed my fuel pump.. Once you just barely crack open the fuel line. It will slowly depressurize over a few minutes.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_1500 psi is for wimps.

 
Justin , whats the new common rail diesels running now 200 bar ??







Bob.G


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Justin , whats the new common rail diesels running now 200 bar ??







Bob.G

PD's could be up to 2000 bar, that's two-thousand bar. I've heard that the new common rails actually use a lower pressure.
Bottom line, buy a FSM or Bentley, the procedure and warnings are in there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_1500 psi is for wimps. So long as the engine is not running there will be little residual energy/pressure in the rail. There is some leak down after a few hours, and just cracking the fitting loose (but not removing completely) can bleed down the system without injecting anyone. 


All of your posts so far on the topic have been warning people about how its dangerous for their engines to assemble these pumps themselves then you go and tell people to just crack the line and it will bleed down? Why be so concerned with someones engine but not their personal safety.
Are you going to take responsibility when someone gets seriously injured when they follow your "its ok to be careless" directions?
6bar of fuel pressure in the feed line from the intank pump is enough to injure someone if it sprayed them in the eye. Even if it bled down from 110 bar to 30 bar someone could still do serious bodily harm.


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Not so fast sparky.Ever got hit by a pressure washer?1500+psi pf pressure is not something to be messing around with.
So I can't just pry the pump off with a screwdriver then?


----------



## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

Hahaha.
Most VW tech's just unplug the lift pump under the rear seat on the passenger side, and run the car out of gas. This may not be by the book, but I know for a fact that tech's at both of the dealerships near us are doing it this way.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
All of your posts so far on the topic have been warning people about how its dangerous for their engines to assemble these pumps themselves then you go and tell people to just crack the line and it will bleed down? Why be so concerned with someones engine but not their personal safety.
Are you going to take responsibility when someone gets seriously injured when they follow your "its ok to be careless" directions?
6bar of fuel pressure in the feed line from the intank pump is enough to injure someone if it sprayed them in the eye. Even if it bled down from 110 bar to 30 bar someone could still do serious bodily harm.


I dont feel my reply was "It's ok to be careless". You have ot use some common sense here, however if properly done it is not dangerous. And a commonly used practice is to crack a fitting to vent it down. 
Cracking a fitting loose is also the procedure for restarting a diesel that has run out of fuel. This is on systems running 1200+ bar peak pressures. This is in nearly every diesel service manual. 
your comment regarding low pressure fuel systems is very true. 
I actually take more care when bleeding down low pressure systems because the rubber lines hold more residual energy/pressure than the hard steel lines. These systems bleed down pretty fast, and with the vent on the pump they are a no brainer to bleed down. 
There is very little energy in the lines with hard plumbing. The liens do not bulge and hold energy to spray you later. 
Failures with the engine running are another story. You do not want a high pressure leak fogging your engine bay with fuel when the red hot turbo is back there. 
I have been running up to 3200 bar lately, forget about 200 bar


----------



## ZWStewart (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Most car washes used 100-130 bar water pressure in the bays, I have never heard of hyperdermic injection happing at the local carwash.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (ZWStewart)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ZWStewart* »_Most car washes used 100-130 bar water pressure in the bays, I have never heard of hyperdermic injection happing at the local carwash.

Ok there is a difference between holding a pressure washer gun thats shooting water @ 100 bar and being an inch away from the actual nozzle where the water is being shot from.
I could stand infront of a 1000 bar hose but how I am affected depends on how close I am to the region where the water is being ejected from.

_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_So I can't just pry the pump off with a screwdriver then?

Of couse you can!


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Ok there is a difference between holding a pressure washer gun thats shooting water @ 100 bar and being an inch away from the actual nozzle where the water is being shot from.
I could stand infront of a 1000 bar hose but how I am affected depends on how close I am to the region where the water is being ejected from.


Yeah back in HS I was powerwashing a pool and as I was thinking to myself I wonder how much it would get hurt if you sprayed yourself, my hand reacted before my brain could say nooooo and shot myself in the foot from about 3"s away. Ripped right into my foot, was not fun.


----------



## 91 16V Jetta (Dec 6, 1999)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

So, are these pumps out yet or are we just talking about what might happen when they do come out?


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Yeah back in HS I was powerwashing a pool and as I was thinking to myself I wonder how much it would get hurt if you sprayed yourself, my hand reacted before my brain could say nooooo and shot myself in the foot from about 3"s away. Ripped right into my foot, was not fun.
ouch lol


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (91 16V Jetta)*

APR and Autotech should have their pumps shipping by the end of August. Some of us do however already have them in our cars.


----------



## ZWStewart (Mar 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Yeah back in HS I was powerwashing a pool and as I was thinking to myself I wonder how much it would get hurt if you sprayed yourself, my hand reacted before my brain could say nooooo and shot myself in the foot from about 3"s away. Ripped right into my foot, was not fun.

Wow, that wasn't too smart, lol. Not all power washers are created equal. My small powerwasher does 1300psi and is not a strong as the local wash bay. Also, I didn't say that it couldn't hurt you, I just said that I have never heard of hyperdermic injection, or holes in feet, at the local carwash. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Just follow the directions and be carefull out there kids.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (91 16V Jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *91 16V Jetta* »_So, are these pumps out yet or are we just talking about what might happen when they do come out?

The APR FSI Fuel Pump is available at a 10% discount, shipping no later than August 24!


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The APR FSI Fuel Pump is available at a 10% discount, shipping no later than August 24!

Put me down for one! or a couple


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Put me down for one! or a couple









me too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Put me down for one! or a couple









uh oh. sounds like a couple of high hp fsi's coming.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
uh oh. sounds like a couple of high hp fsi's coming.








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Sincity (May 17, 2005)

*Re: (Sincity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sincity* »_
Any word if APR will allow a reflash if using competitor's pump?

Keith, what is the word on this?


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (Sincity)*

Question to Autotech....
I'm sure you will have some sort of directions with the pump. What's your stance on this? is it safe/smart for your average joe with some VW skills to replace the pump? Is that what you recommend doing, unplugging the electrical connector on the fuel pump to run the car out of gas to depressurize the system?
That's what I did pretty much on MKIIIs, yank the fuel fump relays and run em out to change the filters. Obviousely this is gonna throw codes/CEL, which isn't a problem for me but may be for some.
Also to Revo/Autotech.....
Since you guys are working on this together how bout some sorta discount or package deal for a flash with the fuel pump? I doubt EIP is gonna support this So I'd have to run Revo if I wanted pump specific software.


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## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re:  (blackvento36)*

I think you (average mechanically minded installer) could R&R the whole pump in under an hour if you worked on a warm engine. I personally would say to bleed the line pressure via the Schrader (with speciatly tool like VW recomends their tech's to do) valve if you want to follow the book. The hardest part about removing and replacing the rail pump is tightening the Triple Square Banjo bolt for the fuel line. Keep in mind that the bolt is a one time use deal. Our kit will come with a new bolt to use upon installation.
As for a package deal on the flash and pump, I don't know about that... talk to your dealer about a combo price???


----------



## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (AutotechRD)*

This looks so easy,I think a gorilla could do it.....


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*

wow this is a hard decision.


----------



## Rub-ISH (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: (ckymike)*

DAMN it I just wish VF would fess up to their pump which is in development...GIAC make this available to us also...
I know you want to. BTW make VF sell their pump separate from the stage three kit. 
The K03 has more in it than this


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Sincity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sincity* »_
Keith, what is the word on this?

if the pump is the same bore and stroke it will work but I don't think they will be!


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_As for a package deal on the flash and pump, I don't know about that... talk to your dealer about a combo price???
The closest APR dealer is over an hour away from me, and I don't know where the hell a Revo dealer is at. Maybe Revo themselves can hook something up.


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_This looks so easy,I think a gorilla could do it.....









autotechrebuildyourfsifuelpump.com so easy a caveman can do it.


----------



## Sincity (May 17, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
if the pump is the same bore and stroke it will work but I don't think they will be!

Interesting.....


----------



## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Hey Keith, I'm pretty sure at least the stroke is the same as neither of us is replacing the cam, right.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bigred35 (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: (Sincity)*

There are more than two ways to skin a cat however, when talking about .000007 clearances, I don't think these two pumps will differ enough if at all.


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (AutotechRD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutotechRD* »_Hey Keith, I'm pretty sure at least the stroke is the same as neither of us is replacing the cam, right.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Round 3, fight!


----------



## AutotechRD (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re:  (BumbleBeeJBG)*

Are you serious???







Come on!


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (AutotechRD)*

Just sayin!


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
Round 3, fight!
Vortex slugfest FTW!


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## [email protected] (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

we should stop the thread and then when you guys actually release it, pick it back up.... because the only people that could actually argue here are keith (apr), autotech's RD and the guy from Revo....i would like to see someone's opinion that does not work for the company that's releasing the pump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Think about this....the 2 companies are essentially doing the SAME thing,a bigger bore pump piston/bore,however one company ( I am going to say it....APR)which are KNOWN for their exorbinent pricing of everythng they sell,is also selling you a pump which is not needed since your car ALREADY comes with a pump,and Autotech is selling just the parts NEEDED at maybe 1/3rd-1/4 (?) the price and you don't end up with a "extra" pump that will just sit around on your shelf at home.....but I guess the $1000.00 APR price tag will help pay for their little racetrack they are building out back and the 600 ex-NASA engineers they have hired to develop parts to make commuter cars faster.


----------



## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*

Oh,I forgot.they also got Magilson and Crew on their payroll now....so that is where the extra money is needed as well.......








Enjoy this post before it is deleted/locked.....sorry I was biting my tongue on this and had to type what was on my mind......just sharing my opinion with a speckling of humor to make it more palatable.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*

For being 36, you really haven't picked up much tact over the years.


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## bhvrdr (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_Think about this....the 2 companies are essentially doing the SAME thing,a bigger bore pump piston/bore,however one company ( I am going to say it....APR)which are KNOWN for their exorbinent pricing of everythng they sell,is also selling you a pump which is not needed since your car ALREADY comes with a pump,and Autotech is selling just the parts NEEDED at maybe 1/3rd-1/4 (?) the price and you don't end up with a "extra" pump that will just sit around on your shelf at home.....but I guess the $1000.00 APR price tag will help pay for their little racetrack they are building out back and the 600 ex-NASA engineers they have hired to develop parts to make commuter cars faster.









In all fairness I spoke with them a year and a half ago way back when they were already starting to run 125bar fuel pressure for stage 2 programs. We spoke further about the possibility of fuel upgrades and at that time they were discussing using a retrofit option. It would be cheaper (more marketable) and easier for them to do but even over a year ago they had ruled it out as a possibility due to the small possibility of incorrect installation/failure of the unit. Many people mis-install their products (BPV, snub mounts, etc) at times and it is no big deal, but any incorrect install or contamination of this product could be catastrophic so they went the more expensive route. This route is more expensive to them as well (allows less overall profit and less mass marketability) but I have no problem with that.
http://forums.audiworld.com/a4b7/msgs/86170.phtml
cheers! Mike


----------



## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_Think about this....the 2 companies are essentially doing the SAME thing,a bigger bore pump piston/bore,however one company ( I am going to say it....APR)which are KNOWN for their exorbinent pricing of everythng they sell,is also selling you a pump which is not needed since your car ALREADY comes with a pump,and Autotech is selling just the parts NEEDED at maybe 1/3rd-1/4 (?) the price and you don't end up with a "extra" pump that will just sit around on your shelf at home.....but I guess the $1000.00 APR price tag will help pay for their little racetrack they are building out back and the 600 ex-NASA engineers they have hired to develop parts to make commuter cars faster.









I agree with you. The thing is there will be 10% of people who rebuild their own, have a failure and blow up the engine. Then post a thread "Help! Blown Engine! Apr fuel pump failure".
I dont think Apr wants to ruin their good name, known for plug and play and reliability....Although Im going with Autotech on price alone, since Im sure I will be able to do it right.










_Modified by sasha18T at 1:42 PM 7-28-2007_


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (sasha18T)*

if the pump is moving additional volumes of fuel via a larger bore and matching piston, how the hell is someone at home going to assemble this? i don't have the machining capabilities in my basement to increase the bore of the pump housing...


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (mwwVW)*

Arin,I have to agree with you,I'm very immature when I get on the computer......so are many others on here....it's "funner" that way,....







for me atleast. 
Imwwvw,I have to look at the pictures again of the components,but since the stroke remains the same,it seems bore size,or ?Sasah18t,I agree,you have to hope that some people will not screw up loosening a threaded retainer,dropping parts in,and reinstalling retainer.
However I have seen many DIY's and guys that work at generic garages/fast lube places strip out a simple oil pan bolt holes,and that is only ONE bolt....so I guess anything can be fubar'd.








Good luck to all,and remember "e-life is not real life"..so have fun with this.


_Modified by VWAUDITEK at 6:32 PM 7-28-2007_


----------



## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*

Can you call Hitachi and see if they will sell us the parts for $100??


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_Think about this....the 2 companies are essentially doing the SAME thing,a bigger bore pump piston/bore,however one company ( I am going to say it....APR)which are KNOWN for their exorbinent pricing of everythng they sell,is also selling you a pump which is not needed since your car ALREADY comes with a pump,and Autotech is selling just the parts NEEDED at maybe 1/3rd-1/4 (?) the price and you don't end up with a "extra" pump that will just sit around on your shelf at home.....but I guess the $1000.00 APR price tag will help pay for their little racetrack they are building out back and the 600 ex-NASA engineers they have hired to develop parts to make commuter cars faster.








 I can see why they want to sell it already manufactured. APR is like a stepped up Neuspeed. I can already see the mishaps getting posted about the Autotech pump. Some people aren't as capable as others, some just think they are, and some are capable just would rather not risk blowing a motor that costs what....$10 grand maybe? I'd go for the Autotech pump and pray I don't have to make one of those threads.
BTW, How'd ya find out about the "payroll" thing? I want some free **** too...lol, maybe I shouldn't have badmouthed APR.

_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_if the pump is moving additional volumes of fuel via a larger bore and matching piston, how the hell is someone at home going to assemble this? i don't have the machining capabilities in my basement to increase the bore of the pump housing...
I don't think it works that way. It's hard to tell from the pics how the pump actually works, but I think there is some sort of sleeve or something that gets replace to increase the bore, or maybe the piston has some sort of step in it. I wouldn't risk messing with it on my drill press either, but I don't think you have to.


----------



## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: (sasha18T)*

Audi TTFWD,381whp...REVO, ATP GT2871R 
Corrado 16VT444whp...SDS,GT3076
Did you hit 11's with either of these yet?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_if the pump is moving additional volumes of fuel via a larger bore and matching piston, how the hell is someone at home going to assemble this? i don't have the machining capabilities in my basement to increase the bore of the pump housing...

There is no machining. The piston and the piece with the larger bore are removable pieces, you just replace them.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: FSI Fuel Pump Myths revealed (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_You'd have to be pretty out of touch with reality if you can't pick up on the underlying pissing contests going on here. It's gone way beyond informed debate and frankly I think it's getting a little old. This type of drama has picked up significantly over the past year or so since the MkV has been around.
All it does is hurt the community.
I mean does anyone really expect Autotech to release a fuel pump that fails most of the time? That's the feeling I get from reading APR posts.
 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
There is no machining. The piston and the piece with the larger bore are removable pieces, you just replace them.

so the piston sleeve is replaceable?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
so the piston sleeve is replaceable?

yes, its the black part on the right hand side of the picture.


----------



## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I think I could handle that install. Looks easier than a full suspension install or something.


----------



## Sincity (May 17, 2005)

*Re: (sasha18T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sasha18T* »_I think I could handle that install. Looks easier than a full suspension install or something.

LOL!


----------



## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: (Sincity)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sincity* »_
LOL!
















You installed it!? And it took you longer than 2-3 hours that it takes for full suspension?


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (sasha18T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sasha18T* »_I think I could handle that install. Looks easier than a full suspension install or something.
Looks like a coffee table job to me.


----------



## kwokTTQ (Apr 13, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly*

while I do not agree w/ owner mods of this pump due to anticipated cam drive issues, you may want to consider:
the fsi pump must not be operated initially in dry state. the reason is the fuel passing through pump serves to cool piston/sleeve assembly, reducing thermal expansion of these extremely close fitting components. if operated in dry state EVEN BRIEFLY spec'd tolerance is lost with resulting lower operating output pressure... fuel provides NO lubricity only cooling...
also dry o-rings will not seat correctly so some suitable "assembly fluid" should be used. hint, do not use water soluble solution such as wd40 as you do not want any injector seat corrosion however slight...
if handling individual components, lint free microfibre lab towels / assembly gloves wise choice and clean dry compressed air - as in aerosol can of PC air cleaner to final clean before wetting & final assembly...
if you're wondering why a few hitachi fsi pumps appear to have lower output pressure, yet cam lobe/thimble not worn, short term dry operation appears to be involved...
my post DOES NOT imply criticism of any firm capable of supplying increased bore piston/sleeve assembly.
this is only FYI...


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (kwokTTQ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kwokTTQ* »_while I do not agree w/ owner mods of this pump due to anticipated cam drive issues, you may want to consider:
the fsi pump must not be operated initially in dry state. the reason is the fuel passing through pump serves to cool piston/sleeve assembly, reducing thermal expansion of these extremely close fitting components. if operated in dry state EVEN BRIEFLY spec'd tolerance is lost with resulting lower operating output pressure... fuel provides NO lubricity only cooling...
also dry o-rings will not seat correctly so some suitable "assembly fluid" should be used. hint, do not use water soluble solution such as wd40 as you do not want any injector seat corrosion however slight...
if handling individual components, lint free microfibre lab towels / assembly gloves wise choice and clean dry compressed air - as in aerosol can of PC air cleaner to final clean before wetting & final assembly...
if you're wondering why a few hitachi fsi pumps appear to have lower output pressure, yet cam lobe/thimble not worn, short term dry operation appears to be involved...
my post DOES NOT imply criticism of any firm capable of supplying increased bore piston/sleeve assembly.
this is only FYI...

You missed the part where someone assembled one in a dust storm, with a hammer and a stick of gum, and factually ran it dry while grapping another car on the track? Apparently it still works, and works very well








But any fuel pump, you never want to run dry, not just a HPFP!


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (syntrix)*

The pump will have fuel the second the door is opened or the key is turned so that should really not be an issue.
I have also run both my stock pump and the aftermarket pump dry.. whoops.. and neither have suffered any damage.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The pump will have fuel the second the door is opened or the key is turned so that should really not be an issue.
I have also run both my stock pump and the aftermarket pump dry.. whoops.. and neither have suffered any damage. 

i ran the stock one dry once too and its fine, what can i say boost drinks gas







lol


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The pump will have fuel the second the door is opened or the key is turned so that should really not be an issue.
I have also run both my stock pump and the aftermarket pump dry.. whoops.. and neither have suffered any damage. 

So where does the air inside the pump go? Back through the non existent return line? 
You will have to crank awhile to get the air out, however the RPM's are low. Use some light moly lube during assembly, and use electronics cleaner to clean all the parts. Lint free towels, rubber gloves. 
I would still be worried that your engine will be used to test the condition of the precision parts with .000025" tolerances stacked up on several parts. Measuring parts is not the same as testing parts.


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
So where does the air inside the pump go? Back through the non existent return line? 
You will have to crank awhile to get the air out, however the RPM's are low. Use some light moly lube during assembly, and use electronics cleaner to clean all the parts. Lint free towels, rubber gloves. 
I would still be worried that your engine will be used to test the condition of the precision parts with .000025" tolerances stacked up on several parts. Measuring parts is not the same as testing parts. 


Moly is FSI injector safe?


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
So where does the air inside the pump go? Back through the non existent return line? 


Having actually done the install on this specific application I can assure you the pump is filled with fuel the instant that key is turned to the on position let alone trying to crank it. I had installed and removed the pump more then once while checking things after assembling it before ever cranking the car and only turning the key to the on position to prime it.


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## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*

Is there any explaination, why some 2.0T run lean, and others have 0 problems with the same setup!?







Odd!


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (sasha18T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sasha18T* »_Is there any explaination, why some 2.0T run lean, and others have 0 problems with the same setup!?







Odd!
 
Some pumps have more internal leakage (more clearance ) than other pumps.
Eventually every modded TFSI car is going to need a pump when they get some miles and wear and tear on the pump IMO.







Bob.G
edit to correct wording used above


_Modified by rracerguy717 at 5:56 PM 7-31-2007_


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## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Some pumps have more internal leakage (more tolerance ) than other pumps.
Eventually every modded TFSI car is going to need a pump when they get some miles and wear and tear on the pump IMO.







Bob.G

Good explaination http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (sasha18T)*

sorry if its a repost, but this is interesting info as well.
http://forums.audiworld.com/a4b7/msgs/86269.phtml


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## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_sorry if its a repost, but this is interesting info as well.
http://forums.audiworld.com/a4b7/msgs/86269.phtml

I dont have time to read that right now...Can you just tell me what oil works Best


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (sasha18T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sasha18T* »_
I dont have time to read that right now...Can you just tell me what oil works Best















It almost sounds like the guy was trying to sell something.
This is the first I've heard of the problem, I don't recall any oil analysis posted here mentioning fuel contamination.


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_This is the first I've heard of the problem, I don't recall any oil analysis posted here mentioning fuel contamination.

reread the threads then...


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## milan616 (Aug 5, 2006)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
reread the threads then...

From the people that have posted Blackstone analysis reports they mentioned that the fuel dilution while higher than expected, wasn't too bad. Though I don't think anyone who has posted a report has done a 10k OCI. The iron levels haven't been so bad either, but again the shorter than recommended OCI probably has something to do with that. If you track your car I guess an even less than 5k OCI would be recommended. I don't track my car, but at 15k decided to do a 5k OCI just on the reasoning that I'm chipped and running high boost and the higher fuel requirement to go with it.
I also think that guy sounded like he was trying to sell something, but the analysis is still something to think about.


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

interesting, so which oil did he end up recommending?


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (milan616)*


_Quote, originally posted by *milan616* »_
From the people that have posted Blackstone analysis reports they mentioned that the fuel dilution while higher than expected, wasn't too bad. 

And now people are going around internet forums saying that this engine suffers from fuel dilution








cheers.beaver.david.fap.fap!!


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## milan616 (Aug 5, 2006)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
And now people are going around internet forums saying that this engine suffers from fuel dilution








cheers.beaver.david.fap.fap!!

I know















edit: Well I was just in the Mk5 forum (I know) and looks like it already started before I said it. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...40932
Knee jerk reactionaries who believe everything the internet says need to have their keyboards taken away from them.


_Modified by milan616 at 9:18 AM 8-3-2007_


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (syntrix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *syntrix* »_
And now people are going around internet forums saying that this engine suffers from fuel dilution








cheers.beaver.david.fap.fap!!

Which would have to come from a fuel pump of course, no possible chance 130bar fuel pressure and running 10:1 AF could possibly get past the rings.
thats just "ludacris"









(yes I know its not spelled the same but it would not be as funny then)


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*

Hah!
Maybe we should discuss "technical" dilution


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## alf_ftw (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Having actually done the install on this specific application I can assure you the pump is filled with fuel the instant that key is turned to the on position let alone trying to crank it. I had installed and removed the pump more then once while checking things after assembling it before ever cranking the car and only turning the key to the on position to prime it.

wrd, thats kinda what return fuel systems do http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Which would have to come from a fuel pump of course, no possible chance 130bar fuel pressure and running 10:1 AF could possibly get past the rings.

(yes I know its not spelled the same but it would not be as funny then)

please explain how increased fuel rail pressure can affect the piston rings?








please explain why every oem fsi engine is programmed to 10:1 if its bad for the engine?








please explain how you, as a mechanic, are in any position to comment on calibration?


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## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
please explain how increased fuel rail pressure can affect the piston rings?










i guess his theory is the fuel will just blow right past them!








maybe i'm missing something..


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
i guess his theory is the fuel will just blow right past them!








maybe i'm missing something..

yeah, but its a spray not a stream. the injectors atomize the fuel into the air as much as possible. that's why FSI was made, to reduce droplets. the pressure that injectors fire at results in basically a mist.


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## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
yeah, but its a spray not a stream. the injectors atomize the fuel into the air as much as possible. that's why FSI was made, to reduce droplets. the pressure that injectors fire at results in basically a mist.

as i am aware.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
sarcasm is so hard to determine via text...


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
as i am aware.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
sarcasm is so hard to determine via text... 

lol, and me being the king of sarcasm! my bad but I still wanted to say what I did cause I think its funny.


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## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*

its all good...
running rich and washing past the rings is one thing...but i'm not familiar enough with this engine application to make a statement as to whether or not 10.1 afr is rich enough to cause that...
my first impression would be that "no, that is not rich enough to wash past the rings"
IBFTL










_Modified by mwwVW at 3:47 PM 8-3-2007_


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
please explain how increased fuel rail pressure can affect the piston rings?









Please explain where I said anything about increased rail pressure

_Quote »_
please explain why every oem fsi engine is programmed to 10:1 if its bad for the engine?









You sure about that?

_Quote »_
please explain how you, as a mechanic, are in any position to comment on calibration?









What does anything I said have to do with calibration. In fact I think it has everything to do with the mechanicals of an engine. And how are you, as a sales person, in any position to comment on either calibration or mechanical issues?


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## alf_ftw (Jan 2, 2007)

/awkward.


_Quote »_Wow...this is a great vibe. It's like Daddy just hit Mommy at the dinner table and we are all trying to eat still. "Just eat honey, Mommy's OK. Daddy just got a little angry" (Child voice):"I don't wanta eat." "Mommy's fine, Daddy just got a little crazy and Mommy's fine." (Child Voice):"Do I have to eat?" "Yes you have to eat."


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_its all good...
running rich and washing past the rings is one thing...but i'm not familiar enough with this engine application to make a statement as to whether or not 10.1 afr is rich enough to cause that...
my first impression would be that "no, that is not rich enough to wash past the rings"


10:1 is enough to wash past the piston rings on just about any engine.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*

Most oil contamination is from the lip seal on the pump. They all leak some fuel. OEM's specify allowable leakage rates. Most is evaporated/consumed in the PCV system, and if good oil is used it can handle the contamination. If you get a bad seal/surface finish the pump can literally fill the crank case with fuel, and dilute the oil to the point of rod knock/ lifter collapse/cam wear etc etc. 
10:1 afr is not so bad on FSI because you don't have the fuel in the cylinder during the intake stroke where it has time to wet the walls. It also does not enter the cylinder at a right angle from the intake ports. And keith is correct the fine pattern helps with the wetting, and the cone spray from the injector does not aim right at the walls of the cylinder. It sprays more at the dome of the piston. 
Even at 100 psi the injector spray pattern is much better than most port injectors that spray like garden hoses. 
Here is an fsi injector on the bench. 
http://www.hostdub.com/albums/...3.mov



_Modified by enginerd at 4:15 PM 8-3-2007_


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
10:1 is enough to wash past the piston rings on just about any engine.
A little off topic but, I thought 12.5:1 was the magic number for making power. I assume APR goes rich to keep the exhaust temp down. My car comes in @ just under 12.5:1 toward redline, my ETP is high, but doesn't max the O2. I've seen Revos do this as well with AFR, but somebody else from Revo made a comment on my dyno graph like it was way outta the ordinary. What's the deal with AFRs on a 2.0t?


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
Most oil contamination is from the lip seal on the pump. They all leak some fuel. OEM's specify allowable leakage rates. Most is evaporated/consumed in the PCV system, and if good oil is used it can handle the contamination. If you get a bad seal/surface finish the pump can literally fill the crank case with fuel, and dilute the oil to the point of rod knock/ lifter collapse/cam wear etc etc. 
10:1 afr is not so bad on FSI because you don't have the fuel in the cylinder during the intake stroke where it has time to wet the walls. It also does not enter the cylinder at a right angle from the intake ports. And keith is correct the fine pattern helps with the wetting, and the cone spray from the injector does not aim right at the walls of the cylinder. It sprays more at the dome of the piston. 
Even at 100 psi the injector spray pattern is much better than most port injectors that spray like garden hoses. 
Here is an fsi injector on the bench. 
http://www.hostdub.com/albums/...3.mov

_Modified by enginerd at 4:15 PM 8-3-2007_

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## sasha18T (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly ([email protected])*

Paging* Autotech*! Im ready for the fuel pump! Please im or email me. Is it ready yet!?


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

i dont wanna bring up the dead, but how do you releave the pressure in the system to remove the pump?


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

There has been 2 methods listed -- the proper one in the bently (Details were not posted so you will need one) 
or starting the car and unplugging the fuel pump near the tank and allowing it to stall.


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## ed j (Mar 11, 2003)

*Re: Hitachi DIY Assembly (sasha18T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sasha18T* »_Paging* Autotech*! Im ready for the fuel pump! Please im or email me. Is it ready yet!?









Same here. Waiting and hopefully the price isn't too $$$.


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

thanks for the help!


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW03Getta* »_i dont wanna bring up the dead, but how do you releave the pressure in the system to remove the pump?

Ive always just removed the fuse for the high pressure rail pump and ran the car till it stalled. You will need to clear the codes once this procedure is done.


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