# 3.6 Intake Manifold on a 3.2 MKIV.:R32?



## GOT R32? (May 24, 2011)

I'm having no luck finding a thread, so if I missed the thread just point me in the right direction and disregard thread. 

Question: Would the Manifold from a 3.6 VR6 fit on a MKIV.:R32? Is there a way it can, or the engine can be modified to except the bigger manifold? If there is a way to make it fit will it flow more air than a stock 3.2 Manifold? I don't want to go after market (HPA) because I don't want to have to choose between having power down low or having it up top (Long Runner vs Short Runner). The thought is since there is no aftermarket manifold that has the Variable Path/Resonance Intake wouldn't the 3.6 have it to but be bigger because its a "bigger" powerplant. If it can fit what would the gain be and is it worth the trouble?

The goal is at least 330hp to around 350hp to the crank. Would prefer not to FI because I don't want to break ish! I would rather be NA with 340HP than FI with 400HP. If so what other hardware and what other tune do I need to get there?

Current set up: (HP/TQ wise)
K & N Typhoon intake
Neuspeed Chip
Neuspeed Power Pulleys
Neuspeed Cat Back

Future plans: 
Schrick 268 cam's
Light weight flywheel
Port and Polish Head
Port and Polish Exhaust Manifold (If I don't go FI)

Would consider:
E85 Ethanol
Bigger Valves and up graded springs to raise redline 

Thank you guys for your time.:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

Its not going to happen power n/a wise. I as well and powerdubs have thrown tons and tons of money at the R n/a and 300 wheel is out of the question. So i gave in last year after trying since 04 and went FI and daily it and beat the hell out of it


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Try a rebore to 3.4 or stroke the engine.
Bigger injectors and a decent tuning map.
Steve


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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

sTT eV6 said:


> Try a rebore to 3.4 or stroke the engine.
> Bigger injectors and a decent tuning map.
> Steve


lol mines a 3.4 but still he wont get to where he wants n/a with stock or higher compression in a 3.4


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Wilder cams and higher revs to say 8500rpm.
Steve


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

sTT eV6 said:


> Wilder cams and higher revs to say 8500rpm.
> Steve


Which will do nothing.




- Josh
(yes, sent from my phone..excuse the typos)


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

PowerDubs said:


> Which will do nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not by itself but combined with the other stuff he is doing.
Steve


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Still nothing. Neither cams or redline are a limiting factor in the power our engines can put out.

The OP is correct- the intake manifold is the bottleneck.


- Josh
(yes, sent from my phone..excuse the typos)


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

PowerDubs said:


> Still nothing. Neither cams or redline are a limiting factor in the power our engines can put out.
> 
> The OP is correct- the intake manifold is the bottleneck.
> 
> ...


oops, ive been running a short runner for so long i forgot about the intake..
Steve


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## GOT R32? (May 24, 2011)

Thanks for all the information gentlemen. I've been racking my brain and looking everywhere on Vortex to find ways of getting power out of the Wookiee. I drive hard and I track the car about once every two-three months. When I get my track wheels/rubber I will track once a month. That is going to be a lot of punishment on the equipment. Which is why I balk at FI. Seeing guys change gearing and still ending up with a gear box full of neutrals is very distressing. It's a Sports Car so it will be driven hard. 

I just have not heard a lot about the intake manifold. That is why I was wondering about the 3.6 manifold. If you stroke the engine is it as simple as changing the crank shaft? To me if I go that rout since the engine is wide open and I'm p & p'n the head/exhaust mani might as well get it bored. The door is not closed on FI but I would limit the out put to 400 HP and around 380 ft-lbs. Again to not detonate or shred anything. Thoughts?


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

GOT R32? said:


> Thoughts?


Here's a thought: Throttle bodies 

As I am also after a fun amount of 'all motor' horses from my R, I turned to the Euro BMW S54B32 motor (E46 M3) for inspiration. From it's 3.2 litres, it makes 343hp in standard trim and 360hp in CSL spec. 

You may think me insane for comparing such exhalted machinery to a humble VW engine, but if you compare the specifications, this is what you get:-

VW R32 (UK/Euro spec engine): 
3.2 litre V6
84mm bore, 95.9mm Stroke
Compression: 11.3:1
4 valve head
Bosch EV12 injectors - 324cc @ 4 bar
Intake cam advance: up to 52 degrees
Exhaust cam advance: up to 22 degrees
Single 3" throttle
Switchable intake tract length
280 flywheel hp (with standard Revo et al remap) @ 6800rpm.

BMW (UK/Euro spec): 
3.2 litre inline 6
87mm bore, 91mm stroke
Compression: 11.5:1
4 valve head
Bosch EV6 injectors - 339cc @ 5 bar
Intake cam advance: up to 40 degrees
Exhaust cam advance: up to 25 degrees
6 x individual throttles 
Short runner intake
343 flywheel hp @ 7900rpm.

So what we see there are 2 engines which are more or less equal in terms of cylinder filling and fuelling capacity, which isn't a bad start.

What the BMW has that the VW doesn't, is revs. To get those, it has the following:-

6 x ITBs and a special plenum.
Light weight, low friction forged pistons.
A tuned steel header
A block far closer to over-square, some other stuff and a pedigree for high hp n'asp engines 

I personally don't think your goals are unacheivable. If it were me I'd get down to a BMW parting yard and get the throttle bodies and plenum off an old E34 M5 and get playing. Or maybe an E46 M3 if available as they're perfectly tuned to the 3.2 motor. I would also bin the factory ECU and all it's driver demand based mapping (a pain in the butt) and run a standalone.

The biggest issue will be getting those ITBs and plenum to fit in a FWD application as the R head is a big old thing that's tight as it is. You will need to fab up a TB adapter plate to mate the ITBs to the R's head and you will also need properly tuned unequal length trumpets.

A guy here in the UK is running his R on TBs, so it's definitely doable. They're not BMW ones though.

As has already been said, you can easily sink 1000s into this, but so do guys running boost. I've done boost with my 12V and now it's time for a proper challenge. Anyone can boost a motor. Getting high hp from all motor is much, much harder.


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## AXZ (Nov 9, 2009)

to achieve that power in a VR6 why you don't look at E85 ?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

3.6 ports are *way* bigger but at a different angle as well. Not sure you can even get the r ports close. 

I would think about getting a quality manifold made.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

You could try a short runner as seen in my build thread.
Steve


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

sTT eV6 said:


> You could try a short runner as seen in my build thread.
> Steve


U can, but by doing this, u lose the fun factor of low end Tq, ur Top end will scream but that doesnt matter if you wish to keep that fun torque down low.

I cant believe it would cost the amount Pdubs was quoted.

Josh or anyone... It was all about alrger Runners and more air from a stock mani right. Well why cant u get the manifold made in 3 sections.

Have the Changeover / plenum machineed from a solid block. Have Runner or Tubing of a certain size/ oval w/e cut to length. have a Flange welded onto that to mate with the plenum and have a flange on the end to mate with teh Throttle body

Either have a flange with said runner tubing welded to the changeover portion to the mtor. either have them utilize the same gaskets that we use or we can use a silicone based sealant.

I am not an engineer, but by utilizing the OEM manifold and taking dimensions from it, why would it be expensive to have the Plenum/ changeover chamber machine out of a solid alumin block. Then take a welder and make everything else?

When i get home im going to see if i cant make something like this happen. Trial and eror right? I ant see the Welding being Cheap if u have a shop do it. But i cant see it being too much to give a CAD file to an experienced machinest who then can import it into the software to make a tool path from a solid Block.

Am i talking crazy here or does this sound like it could be acheieved cheaper than what Josh was quoted. I think the msot expensive part would be buying the already mde Flanges from say UM or whomever and getting the changeover/plenum made. That will be the most costly parts. the Welding and Tubing, i dont see being a problem .

-Ellery


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Obv ive boosted my 3.2 so the charactaristics of power delivery has changed, but the short runner suits my setup.
Steve


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

sTT eV6 said:


> Obv ive boosted my 3.2 so the charactaristics of power delivery has changed, but the short runner suits my setup.
> Steve


Understood, but your setup is not the topic at hand. This isnt about Short Runner Intake manifolds, its about more airflow with a stock like mani.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Making just that changeover piece is going to be $$. Even without all the other stuff to do an upper/lower to mate with the head and tb, Id figure its about $1k for just material and machine work, no design, as a one off. I think the price Josh got is going to be pretty close compared to what it would really take.

I had a 1/2" intake flange made thats similar to a vw 3.2 and it was $160 by itself and I did all the design work. That part is easily 40x simpler then the changeover assembly.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Making just that changeover piece is going to be $$. Even without all the other stuff to do an upper/lower to mate with the head and tb, Id figure its about $1k for just material and machine work, no design, as a one off. I think the price Josh got is going to be pretty close compared to what it would really take.


ok


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## 215_2_PHX (Nov 25, 2011)

It can be done. well.... maybe not to those exact numbers, but i think close enough that you would be satisfied...

Im sure youve all heard of eurospec; they are pretty much VR junkies... I recently read in a eurtoner article that they now offer these conversions for the common 2.8/3.2 24V engines....
Its a bit pricey but in my opinon the N/A power theyve tested and recorded would most likely be more fun then the run of the mill BT car.

If my memory serves me right heres what I believe the numbers are looking like....

2.8L-->3.6L........$5950
3.2L-->3.6L........$7850
w/ exchange....$6850
***(Not to mention they have a 3.8L conversion as well, but we wont get into that right now)

What they did to go over the top was found a 3.2 head out of an R32(rather then the 2.8, to save a lil money) for their 24V GLI and mated it to the 3.6. They do absolutley everything for you as well(machining oil and water ways, manfctring timing components so the 3.6 timing chain can turn the 2.8/3.2 cam, down to a custom head gasket) so u can basically just bolt it in..

Now the stats....:sly:.....
290whp @ 6400rpm // 335 lb-ft @ 5000rpm
and thats just on their mild cam and a catback....

Now before everyone goes insane tellin me im an idiot and nobody has the money for that.... I was just trying to prove a point that those sorts of numbers can be done... and believe me...the moment i find a high-mileage 24V for cheap, it will soon turn into and N/A project.

P.S.- These numbers are with just a slighltly more aggresive cam than stock, and an exhaust.... there are still a few small aftermarket options out there to perhaps crank a wee bit more power out of em..i.e.(GIAC X+, just a personal preferance, intake, test pipe, pulleys, header/P&P factory exhaust manifold, etc.)


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## 215_2_PHX (Nov 25, 2011)

not to mention you rebuild a little of that 2.8/3.2 head, get it to rev up to where you want it and no doubt your lookin at an awesome N/A driving expereince


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## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

Pretty sure it has all been tried and the head/intake design is the issue. Turbo it.


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## GOT R32? (May 24, 2011)

AXZ said:


> to achieve that power in a VR6 why you don't look at E85 ?


E85 is on the table and a possibility. I would not do E85 THEN FI! It would be one or the other.



arethirdytwo said:


> Pretty sure it has all been tried and the head/intake design is the issue. Turbo it.


In truth I know that I will probably end up with a turbo to get the performance I want. As I said before I drive hard and I track the car. Just don't want my gear box going Heroshima! There is the possibility of finding a VF Stage II S/C kit on the cheap then adding some goodies and tweeks to get the power I want. Which ever rout I go it will be towards the end of the year. I just moved, and I will be getting my MKIV a sister in the MKIV.:R. She will be jealous if she doesn't get attention too!!! LOL!!! 

I really like the ITB route. The problem is I don't have the time to do all of the work and experimenting that would be needed. Now if someone has already fabricated parts and or a manifold then I would really think about it down the line.


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## Nicky666 (Jan 2, 2007)

GOT R32? said:


> I really like the ITB route. The problem is I don't have the time to do all of the work and experimenting that would be needed. Now if someone has already fabricated parts and or a manifold then I would really think about it down the line.


http://www.034motorsport.com/engine...-volkswagen-audi-28l-32l-24v-vr6-p-22143.html

There's your ITB hardware. I just don't know if the design is ideal for our engines. The whole "Siamese" port design. I don't know if the firing order would mess it up? Haven't really thought about these much.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

There would have to be six of them to call them individual throttle bodies. I wouldn't bother with anything less than 6x45mm on a 24v and I would personally go much bigger. The problem is packaging and its not an easy one with the vr6s port spacing. 

That being said a nice plenum manifold and single tb will most likely kill the 3x45s.


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## GOT R32? (May 24, 2011)

Never thought I would see the day that PowerDubs raises the white flag!!! Wow!!!  (That thing is going to kick major ass!!!!) Glad your doing a build thread PD. -scribed! 

Well guys the situation is this: I put in my order for a MKVI.:R!!! Can't wait!!!! Since the MKIV will have a sister she is going to want some TLC also!! (APR Stage II + suspension) Also I will be purchasing a house at the end of the year. Because of all that, the budget on the Secret Weapon has dropped. As of now I would cap the budget (on power upgrades) to around $4,000-$5,000 max. For sure 268's, ported and polished head, and a UM tune are on the table. The ITB idea is something I would love to do but the question remains how much would the total cost of the project be? Even if I put a lot of the work in myself. 

Question #1: How would you out there proceed with the budget of $5,000 max (on power upgrades excluding work done)?

Question #2: Does anyone know or think HPA's new exhaust manifold is worth the investment? Is it any better than just P & P-ing my stock exhaust manifold? What kind of numbers would one expect out of it?


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