# Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

OK folks, we all know that there are some pretty standard 8v power parts....setting aside the ABA block swap there are exhaust, cams, chip and DIY porting which seem to be the most popular and affordable.
There are reams of threads out there with first-hand experience and testimonials, however I'd like to do one that has some scientific before-and-after results and also some audio-visual proof








Current engine is a 100hp, RV-code lump, with the only mod being a "VW pilot" chip. I plan to add the following:
*1) OEM dual-outlet manifold and downpipe
2) POSSIBLY- cat-back exhaust. Depends on money and inclination. I really don't want something loud, and I don't want to lose all my low-end power 
3)Street cam- thinking about an Autotech 270/TT 266, MAY end up going with a TT 268 depending on how I feel
4) DIY-ported head, shaved maybe .030-.040", may do a 3-angle valve job and backcut the valves too
5) Port-matched Digi intake manifold or maybe, possibly a Mk1 intake if I can find one* 

I have ruled out, for cost/benefit reasons:
*Headers- a lot of money, likely not much gain over the factory 4-2
Valves- ABA valves and the matching guides (7mm) might add a few ponies but probably expensive, and TT oversized/undercut valves are way overkill for a street motor
Megasquirt/other standalone*

I'm trying to provide an answer to the classic question, "how much power do I get" that most people ask before doing these fairly popular and cost-effective mods.
At some point I may look into the BMW AFM trick......althoguh seems like people have more headaches than they do success with this one. Also maybe fooling around with an uprated fuel pressure regulator if there seems to be a need. 


_Modified by Mr Black at 5:27 PM 1-7-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

TESTING:
I have not done a baseline dyno yet, and I may not bother. Like they say, the proof is on the track. Which I would do if there were any open, but it's winter here in Upper Canadia so I am instead using a third-gear pull, running from 3000-6000 rpm. On the stock motor, 6000 seems to be well past the power peak but I like this as a solid visual test. 
I'm getting times of between 11.6-12.4 sec so far. Videos to follow.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Just an update........
Bought the 4-2 mani and downpipe together with an extra intake mani for $60. Downpipe is in great shape but the studs holding it to the manifold were a disaster, 3 snapped off when I was wrenching them and 3 wouldn't even budge, had to be cut off







I now have to extract 6 trashed studs from the mani. Machine shop wanted $80, I figure a few hours and I can get er done for free on my own.
MANIFOLD- looks ugly but it's solid. Shame about those studs
















DOWNPIPE- immaculate









I'm going to be tracking all costs on this buildup too so that the power per dollar can be approximated.


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## Gin (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Gin)*

Damn Coleman...you should have looked me up. I've got a corrado manifold and downpipe that are slated for dumpster duty. No snapped studs either







. Rust free







.
Getting rid of the restriction in the intake (the AFM itself) is probably the best way to make power on an 8v.


_Modified by B4S at 10:11 PM 1-10-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (B4S)*

Still got 'em Chad? Are the mani and d/p separated?
As for the AFM......fooling around with the BMW version makes me nervous, as I said. I think I'll see how the first phase of this project works, and then throw MS on and see how the motor with mods responds to it.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Yep, mani an d/p are separate. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
What I meant about the AFM is that once you go standalone, it will make more power due to not having to rush through a flapper on its way to the TB.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (B4S)*

Awesome, let's talk on OVD. I see more Redbull in your future








Yeah, it should be good to go to the next level of modding and really optimize the fuel/air delivery. From my understanding though the stuff I'm doing is pretty idiot proof and will still make a very enjoyable difference


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## The_Hamster (Jul 31, 2000)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

*1) OEM dual-outlet manifold and downpipe

-Good Choice IMO, best for the money easy.

2) POSSIBLY- cat-back exhaust. Depends on money and inclination. I really don't want something loud, and I don't want to lose all my low-end power 

-Go for it, I like quiet smooth stuff myself.

3)Street cam- thinking about an Autotech 270/TT 266, MAY end up going with a TT 268 depending on how I feel
4) DIY-ported head, shaved maybe .030-.040", may do a 3-angle valve job and backcut the valves too

-Doing this yourself?

5) Port-matched Digi intake manifold or maybe, possibly a Mk1 intake if I can find one* 

I have ruled out, for cost/benefit reasons:
*Headers- a lot of money, likely not much gain over the factory 4-2

-I totally agree

Valves- ABA valves and the matching guides (7mm) might add a few ponies but probably expensive, and TT oversized/undercut valves are way overkill for a street motor
Megasquirt/other standalone*
-The standalone may be your biggest power improvement. Oldschool electronic fuel injection can be outdone several ponies with a standalone. Also you have room to expand with it. Not cheap, but if you want to research/build some of your own stuff you can do megasquirt on a budget.

At some point I may look into the BMW AFM trick......althoguh seems like people have more headaches than they do success with this one. Also maybe fooling around with an uprated fuel pressure regulator if there seems to be a need. 
I'm not convinced the BMW afm is a good idea. Bosch put the AFM on that the system is designed for, if you want to use another some other things may need to be adjusted. But then standalone gives you the ability to make your own system.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (The_Hamster)*

Yay.....video!

http://smg.photobucket.com/alb...7.flv
Just a baseline run but it is something to eventually use for comparison. It was a chilly day so the time of 11.2 sec I clocked from 3000-6000 rpm is better than the 11.6-12.4 range I referred to previously. 



_Modified by Mr Black at 7:07 PM 1-14-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (The_Hamster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The_Hamster* »_
_4) DIY-ported head, shaved maybe .030-.040", may do a 3-angle valve job and backcut the valves too_
-Doing this yourself?


Porting, yes. Machine work....no. That goes to a shop


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Started working on the the head....it's a CIS head I pulled off a junker I used to have.
Looks a bit scary don't it

















A little Simple Green and a wire brush helped get some of the gunk off:









Intake port








Exhaust port








The intake is not a bad shape in my amateur opinion....the valve guide boss needs some work and the bowls need a bit of clean up but other than that the basic shape is decent. 
The exhausts on the other hand....pretty nasty. Virtually no short turn radius due to the counterflow design, and what there is is very abrupt and has a sharp ridge. I see a fair bit of work happening here, also reducing the guide bosses quite a bit


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## LastMartian (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
















Dude, be careful what you put up in this thread! That picture is likely to give a little kid like me nightmares for a week!
Hey, more power to ya. You're braver than I... Good luck!


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## Collin16v (Apr 12, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_










huh---


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Collin16v)*

LOL glad you guys are enjoying the "before" pics....yeah it's graunchy but that's half the joy of buildups like this....turning trash into treasure


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

nothing to add, just wanna add to watched topics because thats the nastiest 8v head ive ever seen on here


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## MK2SnowPilot (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (L33t A2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *L33t A2* »_nothing to add, just wanna add to watched topics because thats the nastiest 8v head ive ever seen on here

X2 - Is the MOLD growing on the head?!?!


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (LewsCabbyTherin)*

I think it was the result of burning coolant.......whatever it was it wasn't organic.


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## Cyrus #1 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

You're a brave man with a lot of work ahead of you. Be sure to keep us updated. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Cyrus #1)*

Haha....brave...stupid....too much time on my hands...who knows.


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## polskipolak (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for reviving that awful looking head. I am also rebuilding a head, but mine is no where near the condition of yours. I was lucky enough to just have to clean off slight carbon buildup from the valves and exhaust ports. 
I will have a very similar setup to the one you described in my 1986 scirocco. Mine will be a solid lifter head with about 0.060" shaved off which will raise the compression a bit (8.5:1 stock). I also have the dual downpipe with a cat less exhaust (no emmisions, yay!). Intake and exhaust ports are gasket matched to their manifolds. I am also thinking of adding a 270+ cam like you. Ill get a video and some timings as well, which might take a few months as the engine is taken apart at the moment. 
Good Luck with the rest of your buildup, I will be posting my times and videos in my buildup thread in the scirocco forums. If youd like I could also IM you with them as well. Cheers. 



_Modified by polskipolak at 12:51 AM 1-17-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (polskipolak)*

Sounds good, post up a link to your thread. And remember that a "270" cam on a solid lifter motor is pretty mild.....you should think about the Techtonics 280 dual pattern cam. Apparently it's a copy of a Schrick grind and makes great power!


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## polskipolak (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Here is the link to my build thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2980893 
not too much to see there right now. 
As for the camshaft, I put 270+ as Im not sure what i will get yet. Although that deal that is posted on here for the autotech 286 for $100 is sounding pretty good. I hope its available in a few months when im ready to buy.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (polskipolak)*

That's a pretty lumpy cam, you might even wanna take more off the head, get your compression up above 11:1


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Ordered up my Autotech 270 cam today!! Was tempted to go TT 268 but I'd really like an all-around torquey motor. If I feel like living dangerously I'll switch the cam later.


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## Ben B (Bengineer) (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

The 1.8 JH engine originally came with 8.6:1 compression ratio. Milling the head by 0.060 inches is a great place to start, the compression will be close to 8.9:1 (I have done several cars and it worked great, 0.030 - 0.070 inch). I have also cc'd the combustion chambers and calculated the new compression ratio. Keep in mind the cam timing will be retarded (set back) about 4 degrees (when head is milled 0.060 inch off), which will improve the high rpm and worsen the low rpm slightly.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Ben B (Bengineer))*

Running the numbers for a JH motor (assuming stock 8.5:1) gives a full point bump for a 0.060" shave. Actual number is 9.64:1. not sure where you get 8.9:1 from.



_Modified by Mr Black at 11:57 PM 1-25-2007_


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## Ben B (Bengineer) (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

We are both wrong. I looked up my data when I cc'd the entire combustion chamber parameters. The formula is in another one of my posts, which I will send later. I was going by memory when I wrote above which was a 0.040 inch shave = 8.9:1. The 0.060 gets the head chamber volume to 24.5 cc, which equates to 9.2:1. I have another head I used 0.070 inch shave and that was 24.0 cc, which equals 9.3:1. Do the math. I used the VW water cooled performance handbook, which had an ommision...the air gap above the piston top between the piston top and the top of the block. Since I cc'd everything, I know this was accurate...all else is hearsay......


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## Ben B (Bengineer) (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Ben B (Bengineer))*

Guys, I just got done testing several heads for volumes (with a clean, un-milled head, plexiglass/oil water syringe, etc.

The JH 1781 cc enine used a counterflow cylinder head with a head chamber volume of 29.5 cc to be exact. I checked everything, so here goes (I had to go back and look at what I wrote down).
Displacement Volume = 445.25 cc (stroke x bore area x 4) (1781/4) 
Cylinder Head Volume = 29.5 cc (cylinder head chamber volume) 
Piston top Volume (just in piston) = 17.7 cc 
Head Gasket Volume (compressed) = 8.1 cc (hole is 82.3mm) 
Air gap (above piston at TDC) (-quench pad) = 3.6 cc 
Formula: CR =
DV + CHV + PV + HGV + AG
-------------------------------
CHV + PV + HGV + AG 
CR = 8.56:1


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Ben B (Bengineer))*

I did the math......and I made an assumption. To make it simple I assumed the shaved chamber volume is equal to a cylindrical 'slice' with height 0.060"=1.524 mm and diameter 81mm), which is basically removing 7.85 cc's from the Cylinder Head Volume (CHV) part of your formula. 
This brings the chamber down to 21.5-22 cc's, although you have obviously cc'd a head after a 0.060" shave and gotten a volume of 24.5 cc's. I'll defer to you on this one.



_Modified by Mr Black at 2:07 PM 1-27-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

So I went parts shopping today....all the nuts and bolts needed for a head rebuild (well most of them). All the gaskets, nuts, studs, injector o-rings and valve seals set me back 200 freakin dollars! Canadian funds but still.....US equivalent is like $170. This game ain't cheap. And I still don't have head bolts or new lifters








Also bought some abrasive supplies...going to be tracing some gasket outlines and planning the porting strategy. Pics to follow.


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## Ben B (Bengineer) (Dec 20, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Mr Black, unfortunately use assumed wrong. If you look at a head chamber off the engine you will understand better.
One cannot use a "cylinder slice at a specific depth" because the head chamber is not round as the cylinder, it is irregular (trapazoidal with rounded corners) and the sides angle. So the only way to accurately get a volume (three dimensional) is to measure the volume with a material/substance that will fill in every recess of the chamber...as water (not clay as used by some tuners).


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Ben B (Bengineer))*

Dude you really don't have to school me on this....when I stated that I had made an ASSUMPTION I was acknowledging that the method was not 100% precise. I know the chamber is in fact trapezoidal, or hemispherical or whatever. I then conceded that your measure was more accurate. Let's move on








I've been porting all afternoon!! Porting is fun







Got the intakes mostly done, just need to get a longer tool to work on the valve guide bosses and some nasty casting shrapnel right down near the short-turn radius. 
Anyone who says you "can't port with a Dremel" is retarded. I think it has more than enough power.....you can buzz through aluminum with a carbide cutting head or even the 60-grit sandpaper. Is it ideal? No... you do have more power and more surface area with an air tool. And longer reach, However, a Dremel will accomplish 90% of what you need to do IMHO.
PICS COMING SOON!!!


_Modified by Mr Black at 5:57 PM 1-27-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Here's today's progress:
*PORT ENTRY*
Scribed an outline of the intake manifold gasket. Here you can see an unworked port and a finished one at the same time:









Grinding out the opening:








Here's the finished article 








Up close:


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

*VALVE GUIDE BOSSES *
Here's how the guide boss is stock....sure takes up a lot of room and cannot be any good for flow
















Here's my "CNC-quality" reprofile:
















The goal was to make them less of an obstruction (ie physically smaller) and reshaped to divert intake flow around them on either side

*THROAT/BOWL AREA *
Smoothed out the area of the throat where the mixture will be coming after it's deflected to either side by the guide boss. Tried to make this transition a little more gradual









*SHORT-TURN RADIUS*
As you can see there is an unpleasant ridge right in the short turn. (You can also see some of the throat/bowl work)









Smoothing these out is pretty easy









Probably going to attack the exhausts tomorrow


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

you gonna get that thing hot tanked?


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (L33t A2)*

I've been told several times that aluminum can't be hot tanked. But I will at the very least get it pressure washed or something.....jeez, I thought this was the technical forums, not the Detailing forum


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## misterclean12 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Hey Coleman, you're right that aluminum can't be hot tanked. But there is a tanking process for aluminum. I believe that Max Auto Supply on Micheal st. can do it.
Oh yeah, and http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for taking on a project that isn't the norm anymore!


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (misterclean12)*

Thanks Marc I'll look into that. 
I started this thread because I think people are still pretty curious about souping up their 8v motors.....it's still the cheapest one that we VW fans have to work with. I hope to provide a bit of an answer to the question "what do I really get for my money".


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## rypivolks (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

im doing the same thing to







power on a budget


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (rypivolks)*

So last week I got the shaft.............
Autotech 270 camshaft that is


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

nice


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## Sozsei (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Good thread! I have nearly this exact setup in my Rabbit but with a stock head that's been decked a few times. Same cam that you just bought, port-matched digi intake manifold, dual outlet manifold, TT Race dp, catless Eurosport 2" exhaust, CIS-basic, 2h trans. Very fun! It destroys a friend's stock 12 VR6 Jetta. Simply destroys it. It runs dead even with another friend's MkII Scirocco with a 145 whp 2.0 16v. That car is about 300 lbs heavier than my 1900 lb Rabbit. It slowly pulled away from anoooother friend's stock Corrado SLC on a mid 2nd gear roll until about 90 mph where he began to creep up. I imagine that head work you're doing will be pretty noticeable.
Good luck with the build! I can't wait to see what you're able to get out of it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Sozsei)*

Sweet, thanks for the encouragement


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## rypivolks (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

i was thinking about getting that cam to. is it a good cam?


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## Sozsei (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: (rypivolks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rypivolks* »_i was thinking about getting that cam to. is it a good cam? 

It's a very good street cam, in my opinion. I've never used it in anything below a 2.0L but it provides lots of torque everywhere and has nice top end as well.


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## bigger daddy (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

I had a head that looked worse than that one, took it to the machine shop for a super thorough cleaning and pressure check and a .020 surfacing, I didn't want to do all that work first only to find cracks later. 
Just my .02
BTW it came out kick a**


_Modified by bigger daddy at 11:21 PM 2-15-2007_


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## rypivolks (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (bigger daddy)*

im building a 2.0l right now. so that would be a good cam to get then?


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## papichulo7 (Dec 3, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Bump, any update?


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (papichulo7)*

Not really.....just got back from vacation. I guess the next step is to finish the porting, which means some detail work on the exhausts and then I'll probably rent a compressor for the day just to do the stuff that the Dremel can't quite manage.
What can I say...watch this space


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## papichulo7 (Dec 3, 2006)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

ok, thanks ... :subscribed:
Quite interested in the porting work and valve job ... need to learn and do the same on my ABAturbo swap.


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## wvwjetta (Feb 20, 2005)

Correct me if I am wrong but your upper exhaust manifold kinda looks like a ABA upper manifold.
If that is the case it won't fit around the digifant intake manifold unless you hack it up.
Could be my poor eyesight though


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (wvwjetta)*

Nope the one pictured is a Mk2 item, and actually in the end I switched to a Corrado G60 unit because the studs were in better shape. 
I almost picked up an ABA mani but when I saw how much grinding I had to do I said F^&* it and went with the Raddo one.


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## The_Hamster (Jul 31, 2000)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_I've been told several times that aluminum can't be hot tanked. But I will at the very least get it pressure washed or something.....jeez, I thought this was the technical forums, not the Detailing forum









There is another procedure. The machine shop I worked at briefly we had the regular tank for steel and what not, then a smaller tank that just sat in a wash bay in the corner for the aluminum stuff. Not sure exactly what it is or real name for it, we just called it the 'aluminum tank'.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (The_Hamster)*

8v compadres.........
Project has not been abandoned, just hibernating. I am actively looking into finding a compressor to finish off the porting job in one day (OK, maybe one weekend), then the head goes to the machine shop for decking and VJ. 
In the meantime, let me leave you with the following thought:


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## vwsreed (Mar 1, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*








FLAP JACK


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (vwsreed)*

The project lives.......
As promised, rented a compressor this weekend and got the rest of the major work done. I partially port-matched the exhaust openings, meaning that I matched the top edge but not the bottom. The point of this was to a) change the profile of the port a bit and make the roof transition a bit more gradual, and b) leave the port exit a little smaller than the manifold opening so as to prevent reversion
















The exhaust ports still need some work around the valve guide (reducing the size of the boss basically) and throat area (improving that transition around the long-side radius as mentioned)
















Intakes on the other hand are about as good as I can get them without a CNC machine








So a little detail work on the exhausts and some de-shrouding in the chambers, and I'm pretty much done. Then of course I need the head decked and those old studs pulled out somehow


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## native-texan_in_tn (Apr 15, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Enjoying the project and I have a feeling I'll be following in your footsteps soon myself. I'd love to do a VR swap such as a long-time friend did here a few years ago (into an '80 pickup) but just don't have the time or funds to fool with it at this point. It would probably only get me in trouble anyway! Leaking valve seals, etc. have me considering purchase of the engine/head out of an '88 Cabriolet that's here in the junkyard (they want $200 for both) so I can work to completion without having to rush anything...
Not sure why the '88 was junked since it wasn't in an accident but it is an auto, too, so maybe they were having issues with that. Obviously, the motor/head are intended as donors anyway (no visible problems upon inspection... JH block, AA suffix head) and will be slated for rebuilding... I intend to P & P the head myself (machining to be done at a shop, of course), go with a sport cam and just do a general rebuild so as not to get too wild with it (still have a few years of child support left! lol)... Thanks for sharing your progress with us! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (native-texan_in_tn)*

More baseline data....quarter-miled the bucket tonight, nice cool conditions (around 15 deg C or 60 F), tires at unknown pressure (Hankook Z212's). First run was a bull**** 18.2 @ 74.5, next two were consistent:
RUN 2
60'-------------2.488
1/8 mile-------11.30 @ 59.6
1/4 mile-------17.81 @ 75.17
RUN 3
60'-------------2.486
1/8 mile-------11.36 @ 59.5
1/4 mlie-------17.90 @ 75.36
I checked an old Car and Driver mag and they got 17.5 out of a 1990 GTI, I figure the extra 5 hp in that car vs my DigiFast chip makes them about even. I probably could have gotten a few tenths out of a perfect launch but quite frankly I'm more interested in trap speed, since that will show the difference that my mods make.
Anybody else ever run their stock Digi?


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Still fighting with rusty studs.....got 3 of the manifold studs out, but the other 3 snapped so I gotta do the old grind and drill routine....


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## deer_eggs (Oct 4, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

NICE! just found your thread, very nice build. The "before" pics had me a little scared... it's good to see that i'm not the only one modding 8V's!


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (deer_eggs)*

And a little more work tonight.....getting closer.....
Goal for tonight was exhaust guide re-profiling....really tough job because the space is so small to work in and I don't seem to have the right Dremel cutting bit to really do the job (I think the little ball-shaped cutter the size of a pea would do the trick here but I don't have one at the moment). The mini sanding drums don't do jack because they're just a bit too big to get in there.









You can see that the intakes are turning out really nice (in my opinion), but the exhausts are still pretty rough. I'll figure it out though. 
After this, basically it's gonna be "flossing" the short-turn radii on the exhaust ports with strips of coarse and then fine sandpaper, cause again the space is too small to get a tool in there. Then.....valves in to protect the seats, smooth the edges in the chambers, then off to the machine shop for decking & valve job


_Modified by Mr Black at 10:49 PM 5-23-2007_


----------



## BladesNet (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

If you really want to open those 8v exhaust ports, use an ABA metal exhaust gasket ou AEG (even bigger) combined with the AEG 4-2 exhaust manifold (with gasket match ports)


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (BladesNet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BladesNet* »_If you really want to open those 8v exhaust ports, use an ABA metal exhaust gasket ou AEG (even bigger) combined with the AEG 4-2 exhaust manifold (with gasket match ports)



Not sure how keen I am about doing that to be honest, exhaust ports are usually around 85% of intake size and I don't want to throw things out of balance. I doubt the existing valve size/cam size/induction warrants gigantic ports just yet. 
So the AEG exhaust gasket & mani the is same spacing & stud pattern as the counterflow head? I never knew...


----------



## BladesNet (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

All 1.8 8v / 2.0 8v / 1.6D/TD / 1.9TD / 1.9TDI have the same exhaust pattern.
In my case, I got the intake ports up to the Audi 4000 specs !
The exhaust one are ABA specs.
I never tested the head so far.


_Modified by BladesNet at 10:34 AM 5-24-2007_


----------



## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

dont know if this has been asked yet, but why all the work on a hydraulic head?
-j


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Muffler Bearing)*

Um....cause that's what most of us have? The goal is not to make the biggest HP number possible, but to see what the improvement would be over a stock setup by using the standard 8v horsepower tricks. I figure any of the stuff I'm doing here applies to a solid lifter head as well, you can just run a wilder cam on a solid head and thus get bigger numbers and a peakier powerband to boot. I'd like to keep mine streetable. 
The project lives.......still fighting with stripped exhaust studs in the head, got a few more of them out but I'm still fighting with 2, plus the studs in the manifold as pictured above. I'm still very keen to get this done so keep watching this space!


----------



## 89wolfsburg (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (BladesNet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BladesNet* »_If you really want to open those 8v exhaust ports, use an ABA metal exhaust gasket ou AEG (even bigger) combined with the AEG 4-2 exhaust manifold (with gasket match ports)


does the AEG manifold work with a counterflow manifold without modifying it?


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (89wolfsburg)*

Don't know for sure but my guess is no, since the ABA "tubular" mani I saw wasn't going to work either.....it had flanges that were way too thick, would have needed to grind them down quite a bit.


----------



## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

I'm impressed with your work. It's hard to find any people doing this sort of old school grass roots type of work these days. Everyone sends their stuff out or buys bolt on parts, which is fine for some but not for guys like us!
That being said, I'm glad to have run across this post. I'm undertaking the same job as you, though probably not going to gasket match. I picked up a G60 engine and the head is already off, disassembled and cleaned so I'll be cleaning up the bowls and cutting down the valve guides. I was actually considering taking down the bronze guide and tapering the exit a tad, there seems to be plenty of length in there to avoid valve play, what do you think about that? Those things are a huge obstruction!
I'll be running the G60 head on a Digi 2 block, though I'm debating whether to keep the G60 cam or buy a TT 270. Also, my G60 is from a Passat and the dual downpipe is a LOT longer than yours. It also has dual cats, which then merge. I'll try to take some pics.
Anyway, great post and update us with some more work!!!!!
SS


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Syco Stang)*

Dunno about the valve guides, I think some people cut them flush but I don't want to screw around with them. 
If you're running all-motor I doubt the G60 cam would be a great choice, I'd go with the 270.


----------



## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

I figured as much, I'll save the G60 cam for the future, whenever I may decide to turbo it. I will have to try it out and figure it out as I go along, I dont really want to open it up anymore but I know there's a lot of flow potential in the valve guides. Maybe I'll see if I can punch the guides out so I can properly shape the guide boss.
SS


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Syco Stang)*

Head is at the machine shop!
They are decking it 0.040", doing a standard valve job (2-angle) and backcutting the valves. Prices seem really reasonable so far, I will post the whole tally up once the work is done.
They are also helping me extract the one exhaust stud from the head that I couldn't get out (and thus like an idiot decided to drill







) and also the studs in the exhaust manifold (same story







).
Got virtually all the gaskets and bolts and such that I need for the reassembly, all that's left is head bolts and maybe a few O-rings for the coolant flange etc. Oh and I need a decent exhaust to go with my nice new 4-2 manifold. 
To finish up the porting job, I ordered som sweet looking burs from Metal Removal
http://www.cutting-tool-supply...x.htm
Don't know about any of you but I had a hell of a time finding a supplier for these, finally went to an industrial suply shop in toown and sure enough they had the full MR catalog. I got a couple of ball-end carbide burs, 6" and 2" shank length. The egg shape ones look neat too but I didn't think they'd work for what I have left to do.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Good things happening....
Stud has been extracted form the head and Helicoiled.....3 broken studs are out of the exhaust mani. Only $60 for all that, which I'm happy with.
Got my cutting bits and finished off the port shaping. I'm pretty happy with that too, most of the obstruction of the valve guide bosses is now gone and the 90-degree turn in the exhaust port is a little less drastic than it was before. Pics to follow. 
Head goes back to the shop for decking and VJ and then I just gotta throw this thing together. Oh and maybe buy a proper exhaust first


----------



## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

Awesome! Pics pics pics please! And detailed ones too, since I'm asking I might as well be a ***** about it lol
SS


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Syco Stang)*

Here's how it stands now:
Valve guide bosses completely re-shaped

















Exhaust close-up









Looking down the intake port









Looking down the exhaust port








View of both ports








Some original pics for comparison:
INTAKE
















EXHAUST


----------



## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

Lookin good! It seems that although you did reshape the guide bosses, you're altered the throat area just as much due to the porting bit being wedged between the wall and the boss. 
It's hard to tell from the pics, but does the port maintain an even shape or have you "rounded" the throat area? I'm curious because if the throat is larger than the rest of the port without a linear entry into the throat, it could cause some minor turbulence and stalling. Yet, altering the port shape dramatically will cause a loss in velocity and in turn, low end torque. Any ideas on this? I think I may wind up doing something very similar to you, even though I originally planned on just a minor port job without gasket matching..... I may just do the same as you.
Good work, and thanks for sharing.
SS


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Syco Stang)*

I mostly tried to smooth out the 90 degree turn in the exhaust ports so it wasn't so abrupt. Will it cause turbulence.....maybe. But mostly I stuck the bit in there to remove the guide boss metal on either side of the guide, not to make the throat any larger in cross-section.


----------



## 89wolfsburg (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

what machine shop did you take it to?(are they familiar with VWs?)


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (89wolfsburg)*

Actek, on Breezehill. They seem familiar with pretty much everything. They came recommended by my mechanic, who does mostly VW's. We'll see what kind of job they do, but so far so good. I can't see how specializing in VW would make any difference for this job.....a head shave is a head shave, and same for a VJ (pretty sure they use a Sunnen or some similar modern machine).


----------



## 89wolfsburg (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

I am looking for a place to drop off the shortblock and head in the fall, and come back in the spring to a brand new motor.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (89wolfsburg)*

Head is back from Actek, certainly looks nice! Especially my beautiful backcut valves







For some reason they only did the intake valves, not sure if there is some logic behind that. I know exhaust valves need a larger seat contact area but I thought they benefitted from backcutting too..... I'll have to talk to the guy at the machine shop. Pricing was as promised, no hassles. 
Pics to follow. 
I have virtually every part I need for the install except a supporting exhaust system.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Assembling the head today!
I actually took it back to the machine shop and had them install new exhaust guides because the existing ones were really sloppy. Again, they did it properly and affordably. VERY happy about this, I was anticipating complications at this stage but they've been great.
A few pics:
Everyone remember how nasty this head was when I started?









Not any more
























Two-angle valve job only:


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Just another fun before-and-after sequence:
FROM THIS
















TO THIS


----------



## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

Sandblast and POR15 that manifold. Can't wait to see some numbers!
SS


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Syco Stang)*

Haha, I would if I could do it for free but I ain't paying good money to sandblast a chunk of cast iron








5200+ views.....guess this is generating some interest even if not many people are posting. I hope you guys are halfways as excited as I am. I don't expect huge numbers, 105 whp would be sweet, 110 would be amazing, but I'm sure it'll be a big difference in fun-factor.


----------



## MaxVW (Nov 4, 2004)

theoretically digi 2 cant produce more then something like 105 whp stock speaking fuelwise


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (MaxVW)*

What's that based on? Injectors?
I figured that Digi had to have an upper limit of some kind with stock hardware, being a little more finicky than CIS when it comes to tuning. Standalone might be a little hobby project for next year.


----------



## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

Thank goodness for Corrado injectors, fuel rail and FPR. Already got mine ready to go, but getting screwed by the Quebec government has put my porting and turbo install projects on the sidelines. I'm still very excitedly following this, maybe in the new year I will take your results and see where that takes me. Keep us posted, I'm sure there's lots of us waiting.
SS


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Syco Stang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Syco Stang* »_Thank goodness for Corrado injectors, fuel rail and FPR. 

You think that's the key right there? I've seen several posts where people seem to think the Digi injectors/hardware can handle 140-160 hp. If you're FI then obviously that's not enough but for me it would be plenty. Guess we'll find out


----------



## Sn0wMaN (May 26, 2003)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

I had a pretty bad ass 1.8 8v afew years ago, it was Digi 2 and im pretty sure i was running more than 105whp. Well i parted that motor out and am kinda pist about it so i may start playing with my 91 soon, already have Pilot chip, eurosport intake, and magnaflow 2.25" catback! 
Just dont stop this thread, it kicks ass!


----------



## SunnyCatStudio (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

this thread is awesome! makes me want to build up my 8v...


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Sn0wMaN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sn0wMaN* »_
Just dont stop this thread, it kicks ass!

Haha, not to worry my friend, this thread is unstoppable like Britney at an open bar. 
This weekend is pretty much do-or-die for the install. Might not have an exhaust right away but I want to get the head and DP on.


----------



## Syco Stang (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
You think that's the key right there? I've seen several posts where people seem to think the Digi injectors/hardware can handle 140-160 hp. If you're FI then obviously that's not enough but for me it would be plenty. Guess we'll find out









I have no clue to the limitations of the VW injection systems. If you want to know about Mustangs, their limits and any setup I can get you going in no time! I'm learning as I go along, and will be playing with it all myself to learn for myself.
I have the G60 injectors, rail, fpr and a BMW 735MAF which I'm going to use to fine tune the setup. More fuel means I can run more timing, and I'll be ready for a small turbo setup when the means are there. I'm thinking ahead, so we'll see how it all goes. I'm following your thread to see where I will go with my setup, how much you gain and how yours drives so that I can make an educated guess, unlike now where I'm pretty much in the dark and learning from scratch! Keep up the good work and informative posts.
SS


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Syco Stang)*

I've run into a bit of a setback here...hope it doesn't mess things up in a big way.
Trying to remove the last of the CIS injector cups, I had to put major force through it with a 2' breaker bar because it just wasn't moving. In doing so, I actually managed to crack the metal around the injector cup thread (furthest one to the right).
















Filled the head with water to make sure that the crack didn't hit a water passage (it didn't), but I'm still worried that the crack could propagate. It's right where the intake manifold sits on the head, so at the very least it'll have to be buzzed down. Any thoughts on whether this can be repaired with a bit of weld? Epoxy? Is this head scrap now? (please say no)


----------



## Cyrus #1 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

I think you'll be fine. It would probably be wise to have the crack welded and re-thread the hole. I think that the water jackets are mostly surrounding the combustion chamber.
Did you use any heat when removing them? Two different metals together like that tend to "weld" themselves over time. Applying a bit of heat will usually help things greatly.
PS - Is that a big valve head?


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Cyrus #1)*

Oh I had a torch on it for like 10 min.... heat didn't help me.
Now that you mention it I don't know if it's 40x33....I think so but not sure


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

I recognize that exhaust manifold







.
I wouldn't worry about it Coleman, I recently cracked a cam bearing cap at the stud and it still torqued down just fine. Fingers crossed the other 4 caps will keep the pressure off, lol. I'd JB weld that crack once you get the cup out, and call it a day. As long as it isn't a vacuum leak, you'll be good to go. I was under the impression that the Digi2 heads were larger vavles than the CIS heads, although again...Vortex rumor at best







.
Keep it up man, I'm seriously rethinking my current engine project due to your porting pics...


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (B4S)*

Yeah the manifold's a beauty... took a little help from my welder and then the fellas at Actek but the old studs came out. Retapped the holes...and now she's good as new







I hope the other one is enjoying its life as a mockup/paperweight.
I'm stressing out about the damn valve size now, I know some of the CIS cars were big valve too but this head definitely did NOT come off a GTI, it was from that silver junker that you and I took the engine out of way back when. Might only be 38mm intakes







They do look like they take up most of the chamber, and in fact I may have measured them at some point just to be sure they were 40's.

Glad this build is inspiring you but wait until I get results before you change any plans







And thanks for the reassurances, I can't see this crack being critical but if it is possible to weld or epoxy I think I'll do it.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Surgery is underway!!!!
I have everything except the downpipe and head bolts detached.
Some interesting good news and bad news tidbits. Good news first- the machine shop got that last injector cup out of the head, and the crack is something that I can live with. The bad news is that I confirmed that I have an old CIS head with 38mm intake valves. Pretty PO'd at myself for this, but hopefully the porting and VJ and chamber de-shrouding will make up for that somewhat.
I HOPE to have 'er running by tonight but who knows, could be tomorrow that I finish things off. Depends mostly on daylight.


----------



## Cyrus #1 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Good luck with the surgery. I would imagine you're in the same boat as me right now. It gets dark and cold by about 7:00. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Edit: It's 8° outside right now.










_Modified by Cyrus #1 at 10:55 AM 9-29-2007_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Cyrus #1)*

Hah it's nicer than that here today, more like 18-20 and sunny







Imagine that, the East Coast has the West Coast beat for once!
















Nothing like making a Mk3 your bitch while you pamper your Mk2


----------



## short track (Dec 11, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

how do i find out what code engine i have? i have an 88' golf, US made, with some kind of 8v. i know one volkswagen guy, but he has stopped answering his phone, i call him so much. 
i have been pouring over these..... threads ? (the stuff people are writing) and trying to soak up as much as i can, but if i dont understand what they are talking about, i cant really learn it can i ?
what is a jh engine ? rv? .... im lost here. i can build, but i have to know what i am starting with.
thanks alot !!!


----------



## short track (Dec 11, 2003)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

this thread is ausome !!!!! please please keep it going 
this is more insperational than billy grahm, more interesting than ripleys believe it or not, and hotter than angelina jolie...... well maybe i went a little too far on that one..... you get the idea


----------



## Cyrus #1 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (fox conv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fox conv* »_how do i find out what code engine i have?

The code is stamped into the block below cylinders 2 and 3. There is a bit of a flat spot right where the block meets the head. You'll most likely have to do a bit of scraping to find it. If your block is really rusty, you may not even be able to read it.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Cyrus #1)*

Glad you guys are enjoying the thread. 
OK so here I am at the end of day one. Back is sore, fingers are raw, old head/manifolds/downpipe are OUT. Man it feels good when you get all those head bolts out after hours of prep and you feel that big hunk of metal move around








I have run into a few problems/irritants. First, the dual d/p I have does not have a bung tapped for an O2 sensor. Naturally the Digi ECU requires one. So does anyone know how I tackle this? Just get one welded in at the bottom of the d/p where the two tubes merge into the collector?
Second, one of the stupid allen bolts holding the fuel rail onto the head is rounded out. ANd I've lost my drill














Small things drive ya nuts.....
Third thing is that I'm pretty sure the d/p to catalytic donut gasket is the wrong size, but I have no idea which one to get. Everyone talks about a 50mm or 55mm cat, but the opening on mine seems to be well over 60mm. Hopefully the previous owner who put this cat on can shed some light.
Stay tuned...gonna TRY and finish it tomorrow but I expect something else will go wrong









_Modified by Mr Black at 8:26 PM 9-29-2007_


_Modified by Mr Black at 11:29 PM 10-3-2007_


----------



## Cyrus #1 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_First, the dual d/p I have does not have a bung tapped for an O2 sensor. Naturally the Digi ECU requires one. So does anyone know how I tackle this? Just get one welded in at the bottom of the d/p where the two tubes merge into the collector?_Modified by Mr Black at 8:26 PM 9-29-2007_

The O2 sensor should be located in the cat with the dual downpipe setup. At least that's where mine is. After reading your post it sounds like you may have an aftermarket cat. So yeah, you may have to get a bung added.


----------



## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Yea I hear you one thing after another, I have two work gloves, but I can only find one at a time








Finished the engine rebuild but can't get the brakes sorted out, if its not one thing you can bet it will be another...and another...


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Cyrus #1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cyrus #1* »_
The O2 sensor should be located in the cat with the dual downpipe setup. 


GAGGHGGHH. Well that flushes en entire Sunday down the tubes







Would have been a great day to finish this off.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

UPDATES
Downpipe has been modified to hold the O2 sensor, and I have picked up other goodies like new exhaust donut gasket and T-body gasket. My exhaust (Brospeed Stainless) arrived in town via UPS today so I'm going to the depot to pick it up tomorrow! And before anyone freaks out I have a nice dual tip (also stainless) going on instead of that giant 5" round howitzer thing.
More assembly tonight!! Injectors to be transferred etc


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

So much for that idea.
The 4th Digi injector insert won't go into the hole where I cracked the head, and I managed to nick a valve seat too, so it's back to the machine shop yet again. 
Note to self- next time, GET A FRESH HEAD, not one with small valves from a 1986 junker.


----------



## Cyrus #1 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*

Sorry to hear that man. What was wrong with the injector hole? Are the threads trashed or is it worse than that?


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Cyrus #1)*

Well the crack runs right through the thread for the injector hole, so it's kinda shifted (imagine a highway after an earthquake







) The threads don't line up any more.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_So much for that idea.
The 4th Digi injector insert won't go into the hole where I cracked the head, and I managed to nick a valve seat too, so it's back to the machine shop yet again. 
Note to self- next time, GET A FRESH HEAD, not one with small valves from a 1986 junker. 

DOH!


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Fundamental bargain 8v motor build with some scientific principle involved (B4S)*

Thank you Sweet Baby Jesus! Finally a good car day.
My welding shop took a look at my head and said they coudln't help me...but even before I got the answer back form them I started thinking...what would MacGyver do? WHy not just drill ALL or most of the thread out of the injector hole, coat the Digi insert in epoxy and just shove 'er in?
In the end I didn't even have to do that, just buzzed out the threads that were misaligned with a Dremel, "tapped" the hole with the old CIS brass insert, and then screwed the DIgi insert in. With a bit of firm pressure to make sure it followed the thread, she went in!!!
So that roadblock is out of the way. Injectors and fuel rail are on now, might take a stab at getting most of this installed over the weekend (Canadian Thanksgiving- 3-day weekend







)
Of course the gods let me know they still don't like me all THAT much.....my Brospeed catback arrived with at least one piece that didn't belong on a Mk2







Nice looking system though, it's about 2 1/8" ID, not quite a 2 1/4" I don't think, but the bends sure are nice.


----------



## MaxVW (Nov 4, 2004)

if you wanna make more power on digi 2 and save some hassle just dont put the o2 sensor in


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (MaxVW)*

OK this is probably a whole other discussion topic but won't the Digi ECU freak out if it doesn't get an O2 signal?


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

It won't freak out, but you'll suddenly have no closed loop cruising anymore...so kiss any fuel economy goodbye. Once the WOT switch is engaged, it stops listening to the O2 feedback anyway, its pointless to take it out. You may have a bit more punch on the highway, or at part throttle, due to there being no more closed loop control, but ultimately, your hp will remain the same. Might change the torque curve slightly, but not much.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (B4S)*

That's about what I thought. The O2 stays.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Progress pics:


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

IT'S IN
Valvetrain reinstalled, manifolds on, downpipe on and head bolted to the block.
My advice to anyone doing this install is 1) get a buddy to lend a pair of hands, and/or 2) install the downpipe separately cause it's a pain in the butt trying to weasel the big flange at the cat end of the downpipe through the gap between the firewall and steering rack. Especially when you have 50 lbs worth of cylinder head attached to it.
In wrestling with the head I managed to put a bit of a gouge in the head gasket and also snap one of the connectors on the distributor car. Sigh, another trip to the parts store.

















No shots of the head installed so you'll have to take my word for it.
Parting shot:


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

UPDATE
I have virtually everything installed save for the airbox and related vacuum lines, and exhaust. Still waiting for the vendor to ship me the correct centre muffler, which they claim they are waiting on from Bosal.
I dunno, maybe I'll fire it up on the stock exhaust tomorrow just for kicks.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Well today was D-day. As in disappointing. As in dead. 
Car cranks but won't fire. At first I realized that I had the firing order backwards in my head, so I quickly swapped all plug leads 180 degrees. When I cranked it again, there were some faint little pops that sounded vaguely like combustion but it never went any further than that.
Engine is definitely getting fuel, pulled a plug to check that. I have a feeling that ignition timing is the culprit but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I know the intermediate shaft is out of whack with the crank, cause the dizzy rotor doesn't point to where the manual says it should (if you're facing the motor from the front, it's supposed to be on the far left terminal or "10 o'clock"), but I put the #1 plug wire (well initially it was #4 but I corrected that) on the terminal where the rotor was pointing. 
Should be as simple as that no? Does it matter which "direction" the rotor is pointing, as long as it is directly lined up with the #1 plug wire?


----------



## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

I'd full the distributor out, and place it at about the correct location, this way your sure to get the spark plugs and timing set correctly.
Your right in it doesn't matter where the Zero mark is(the base), just important how every thing else is in relation to it. Rotor still needs to point at the zero mark.
I too had similar false start when I got my project running again last week.
I'd also double check the cam timing make sure your not off 1 tooth.


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (ny_fam)*

I can try pulling the distributor tomorrow, but I still would need to know where the rotor should be pointing when everything is at TDC right? I've heard people mention a "mark" on the housing but I have no idea where that mark is, or why it's important. I thought the only relevant alignment was rotor with plug #1 terminal.
Pretty sure the cam to crank is dead on. Cam sprocket has the O|T notch lined up with the O|T on the plastic piece behind it on top of the valve cover. Inner crank pulley has the notch lined up with the arrow on the lower timing cover.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

The timing mark on the distributor housing is important, that is what you align the rotor to at TDC for Zero degree timing, then when you put the cap back on the rotor and plug #1 will align correctly.
The reason the book suggests that the rotor should point toward the Cylinder #1 is that the timing mark on the distributor housing is assumed to be facing the block too, and you'd then know which way to put the cap on. Other wise your cap would be 180 degrees off. Because it really can be installed only two ways, the cap that is.
Truth be told here - the distributor cap plug #1 and the rotor determine when plug #1 will fire. The rest of the stuff above is getting it to fire at TDC.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_The timing mark on the distributor housing is important, that is what you align the rotor to at TDC for Zero degree timing, then when you put the cap back on the rotor and plug #1 will align correctly.

So where is this mark exactly?

_Quote »_The reason the book suggests that the rotor should point toward the Cylinder #1 is that the timing mark on the distributor housing is assumed to be facing the block too, and you'd then know which way to put the cap on. Other wise your cap would be 180 degrees off. Because it really can be installed only two ways, the cap that is. 

My cap can only be installed ONE way. There is a plastic "key" on one side of the cap that fits into an indent in the dizzy housing, facing the front of the car.

_Quote »_Truth be told here - the distributor cap plug #1 and the rotor determine when plug #1 will fire. The rest of the stuff above is getting it to fire at TDC.

Right, but if your cam and crank are AT TDC and your ignition rotor is pointing at the terminal with the #1 plug lead on it, then you should be set up correctly, right? Cause this is what I did, even though the rotor may not have actually been in line with the "notch"


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

OK so I found the mark, realigned everything so that the rotor was at the mark at TDC. It still won't fire. Every revolution there's a little BWUPP sound like it's almost catching but it won't go. 
I'm fed up. It's going to the shop this week.


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## 85spraybomb (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

is the coil ok..?
i recently had this problem with a friends mk3, and it turned out to be the coil pack.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (85spraybomb)*

Haven't tested it, the car ran perfect before the swap so I'm doubtful that it's gonna be a component that I didn't change.


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## DubbyDriver (Oct 23, 2003)

Good luck bump.


_Modified by DubbyDriver at 6:57 PM 10-13-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (DubbyDriver)*

*BETTER NEWS!!!!*
It starts and runs well now. Got some much needed help from a buddy who has been into Dubs/Audis for years.
We started by swapping some of the plugs, fiddled with the timing more, and actually got it to fire today for the first time. It was beautiful to hear, but it was running very rough and no matter what we did with the ignition timing it still only ran on 3 and would not idle. Dizzy cap was arcing all over the place to. We isolated it to the #1 plug and my buddy suggested I get a new distributor cap (which was weird since I just bought this new one, but I said OK, I'll get one from PartSource and try it).
Then I realized my Mk3 loaner probably had the same dizzy cap. Checked it out online, sure enough the parts are compatible. So as I pop my own cap to replace it with the Mk3 cap, I notice that there's moisture all on the inside!! Wipe that out, fire it up again and lo and behold it idles now! 
Took it for a test run, it was still having problems at low speed, running on 3 or stalling under 1000 rpm. But for some reason as I drove it more, it stopped stalling and within a few minutes she was purring.
Proper "testing" still has to be done of course, I need to get the timing set, get this damn exhaust sorted out and installed, and then I'll get video of 3rd gear roll ons and I guess next season, some quarter mile runs. But there is no question it has way more balls than before. Much throatier sound, much more midrange/top-end pull.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Played with the timing a bit, it was idling very high (1200 rpm) so I backed it off (retarded the timing) until it settled down to about 8-900 rpm. I moved it a fair bit so it must have been ridiculously advanced! Anyhow performance seems even punchier now. Really want to get this exhaust on!!


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## BornToHula767 (Oct 12, 2005)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

good job man, great to see another dubber prove that the 8v can be fun and fast for a low price.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (littledubber92)*

Finally the correct exhaust (at least it looks right)
















I bought this from BestPriceCarParts.com, I think they're a forum sponsor on here. Their prices are amazing for Bosal/Brospeed. Now, they did send me the wrong stuff in the first place but it was improperly packaged by Bosal, so I guess Bosal gets the http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif for that part. Anyhow BPCP worked with me to get things straightened out and the guys at Bosal USA eventually shipped me the correct stuff. No hassles from either company, it took a bit more time than I would have liked but ultimately they both stood behind their products.
Car is supposed to go into the shop this week. Exhaust on, timing fixed....could there be more video footage coming soon ???







Tantalizing, I know.


_Modified by Mr Black at 6:00 PM 10-30-2007_


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

looking at your 3k-6k video.I did a 11.07 my specs-2.0lxflow on digifant-header,TT chip.This is around an 85degree day.I'm planing on going to Digifast,and change my blue coolant sensor.
on a 1.8 rv with just a chip i did a 17.6 at 76


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Couper1TEP* »_looking at your 3k-6k video.I did a 11.07 my specs-2.0lxflow on digifant-header,TT chip.This is around an 85degree day.I'm planing on going to Digifast,and change my blue coolant sensor.
on a 1.8 rv with just a chip i did a 17.6 at 76

EDIT- I just re-read your post....you are running a full ABA with cross-flow head on stock 1.8 Digi management? Same injectors and everything? I forget what my time was for the 3-6k pull, I think around 11 sec but it's tough timing it with a stopwatch.
Good to see our quarter-mile times for chipped RV's are consistent








Anyhoo it is definitely faster now, really can't wait to get it all finalized. And I REALLY can't wait to hit the track for the first time with a half-decent engine!


_Modified by Mr Black at 11:48 AM 10-31-2007_


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

ya i type like poop some times.
I have a X-flow 2.0,on digifant 2 with blue top injectors(they flow more than the 2.0 ones)TT chip,coated and wrapped header.It really dosnt feel as fast as it should.I made my first run with the 2.0 on a 90degree day and it was so slow(17.6)and so i re checked the timing(way over advanced)replaced 02s,put the air box back in.So i'm changing the coolant sensor today which makes a huge difference(always buy the vw one,aftermarket ones suck).I plan on doing a 535i afm and a ture cold air.aiming for a 16.8-16.6,but it just dosnt feel like it can


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*

So your 17.6 is on the ABA motor....or a 1.8 RV? I'm confused now.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

on both.The Rv did a 17.6 then the 2.0l with the timing way off also did a 17.6.Havent been to the track since i fixed the timing


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## syncrogti (Sep 5, 2005)

*Re: digiII injector capability*

Just a side note about the injectors from DIGI2, i converted my 1.8L 8v gti to digi1 but left the stock injectors/FPR and ran 11lbs of boost, somewhere around 165hp so i know the stock DIGI2 injectors are good for that much power atleast. Sorry for the lateness of this post, this discussion was a page back and i just saw it.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: digiII injector capability (syncrogti)*

i just found a 535i afm at the local JY,but i had no money so my friend with a digi II 16v is putting on as we speak.So i'll hopefully have mine next week.Track day in two weeks so we well see if i can hit 16's


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Couper1TEP)*

Eesh, personally I wouldn't mess with the AFM, seems like most people that try it end up miserable, even though "in theory" it should work like a charm. God knows the stock Jetta AFM is a nasty little hole the size of a matchbook, but I think if I were going to ditch that, I'd just build a standalone system. 
Timing is adjusted and exhaust is installed now. The Brospeed really fits the bill for what I wanted- high quality, good flow without being loud. Just a nice deep crisp burble from idle to 3k and then above that it hardly seems noisier than stock. 
Hopefully by next weekend I can get some video footage!


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Mr Black)*

well i did another 3k-6k pull tonight got 3 10.5seconds.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Couper1TEP)*

*ALRIGHT EVERYBODY........ I PROMISED I'D DROP SOME SCIENCE AND HERE IT IS*
_3rd gear pull, 3000-6000 rpm _
Before (chip only, 100 hp RV motor, 4-1 stock exhaust)):

After (ported/shaved head, backcut intake valves, Autotech 270 cam, 4-2 factory manifold/downpipe and Brospeed catback exhaust) :

I get about 11.3 sec for the baseline run and 8.8-8.9 sec for the modified. You can obviously be your own judges. Not sure how this will translate into the quarter mile but it feels a wee bit slower than my stock-cam 16v, which ran low 16's at 83-84 mph. So I'm predicting 16.5-16.6 at 82-83 mph.
All in all, was it worth it? Yeah, probably. The exhaust was the single most expensive component but you gotta figure that some of that is also aesthetic, and can be recovered since the system will last for years and can be re-sold (stainless). So in all I have about $1250 in with the exhaust, and about $800 without it.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Mr Black)*

Not to be an attention whore......but 9000 views and now here are the vids and no comment? 
If you still think it's slow you can say that too


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## BornToHula767 (Oct 12, 2005)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Mr Black)*

thats pretty mean sounding for just an exhaust and that other stuff, my brothers 8v sounds a bit better and he has over 2k into it.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for a job well done


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## ThemadtownGolf (May 18, 2007)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Mr Black)*

I been watching since the beginning, one of my favorite threads to watch as I might be doing the same this coming spring. Just never had anything to say, no questions because you left none to be asked. Good job though, how does it do on gas mileage compared to stock?


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## nOrcAL7 (Dec 27, 2005)

Been watching this topic for awhile. any updates.. more pics?


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## nOrcAL7 (Dec 27, 2005)

oh btw, I might be doing in the near future,once I've get all of my parts sorted out.







Keep up the good work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
























_Modified by nOrcAL7 at 10:10 PM 11-16-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (nOrcAL7)*

I'm sure with a more aggressive cam and a different manifold or ITB/Carb setup this thing would sound ever meaner. If I decide to go "Stage 2" that almost exactly what I would be thinking....probably a one-off modified stock manifold with shorter runners &/or bigger plenum, and a hot cam. 
I'd probably change the engine management at that time too since that lousy Digi AFM just has to be restricting the power potential!
It SEEMS that fuel mileage has dropped some, but maybe that's just cause my foot's in it all the time







A good highway trip would be the test.


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## jerrymic (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

car sounds spectacular... there's just something about the sound of a good N/A setup can't be beat... can't wait to see some track times...


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (jerrymic)*

i just all my stuff right and did 8.3's.VID coming


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Couper1TEP* »_i just all my stuff right and did 8.3's.VID coming

Nice buddy! Post 'em up


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

dude i type like A$$ sometimes.MY cam died half though second


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*

Oh well, whenever you get a chance. What did you have to do to get it running right?


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

the camshaft was off.It made all the difference.Just raced my buddys 1.8t from a 3rd gear pull and i actually nosed away for a bit!But ya i'm loving it some much!getting a new 02s next week so my mileage gets better.Its so much fun know


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## Golfisnotasport (May 14, 2004)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*

i dig this thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and i know someone else probably said it and i missed it but.... seeing a dyno would be sick!







just cuz. can't wait to build my next 8v now. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Golfisnotasport)*

Might dyno it on a wideband just for fun........also because my fuel economy seems pretty crappy and I'm wondering if I'm running rich


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

vid today


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*


loves to rev high


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*

Nice, I'll be honest though I timed your run at 8.8-8.9. Maybe my finger is slow. 
What gearbox you running?


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

its a aug220.But that run was alittle slow,its feels alot faster when i come up from second then hit it


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## syracusegli (Jan 22, 2005)

*Re: (Couper1TEP)*

nice work dude. i like the step by step of the head work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JonnyPainter420 (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Mr Black)*

I just bought my first vw, 90' gti 8v. How do I tell which is what, Whats CIS and Digi, I think i have a vacuum leak or electrical prob from what I've read in these forums. I will post vids of what happens when i figure out how. I read this whole thread and it made me forget about the vr6 swap and just do my 8v


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: digiII injector capability (JonnyPainter420)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPainter420* »_I just bought my first vw, 90' gti 8v. How do I tell which is what, Whats CIS and Digi, 

CIS will have four braided fuel lines running from a Fuel Distributor at the front passenger side of the engine bay to the motor (well five if you include the cold start). Digi does not, it has only an airbox at the fron of the engine bay and the fuel injectors joined by a fuel rail on the back side of the head. Your car is a 90, so it should have Digi.

_Quote »_I read this whole thread and it made me forget about the vr6 swap and just do my 8v









Flattered, but don't get fooled bro..... the little 8v will NEVER have as much torque as a stock VR6. Cost wise..... to get VR6 horsepower (155-165 stock) you would have to spend as much or more on your 8v as a VR swap would cost. 
The 8v benefits are a) simplicity/cost and b) better weight distribution. But for outright performance....slap on a turbo or get a VR


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## JonnyPainter420 (Sep 13, 2007)

true, I almost paid 5500 cdn for a full mk3 vr swap. Income was shaky so it fell through. I would still like to do it, But I am coming into a large lump sum of money. Would like to buy a written off r32 and swap the whole thing into mine.


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## 8valvinsleeper (Jul 13, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPainter420)*

I have a video on my facebook that i cant figure out how to post on here. It wont let me copy it. I did the same thing with my 8v. It had a whole msd ignition system, solid alum. front motor mount and G60 tranny mount, 270 cam with titanium valve retainers, intake, chip, cat-back exhaust with no cat, intake and most of the usual bolt-ons (spark plug wires and a few other things that dont really do much). My cam timing was advanced 4 degrees. With 3 people in the jetta, 2 amps and 2 subs in the back, i did 3000-6000rpm in 8.6 seconds in 3rd gear. I had the crappy toilet bowl manifold too. Right now its all ripped apart and im doing a P&P, shave the head 0.035", 3-angle, its gettin CCed, P&P intake manifold, P&P throttle body, lightweight flywheel, AC/PS delete, PCV reroute to catchcan (lowers intake temp a few degrees, less sludge in intake), billet fuelrail (no power increase) and new cap&rotor because it needs it bad. I will post a video once i get finished with that. I will probably be looking at 118-124 whp realisticly.


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## 89wolfsburg (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: digiII injector capability (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_Not to be an attention whore......but 9000 views and now here are the vids and no comment? 
If you still think it's slow you can say that too









I missed the 2nd half of the thread until now. 
I was wondering where the updates were.
Nice job, I have to do a baseline run with my cabby this year(although it won't be getting any motor work until 2009.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

Wow, I remember this build fondly....swapping cams on my current ABA Mk3 has made me nostalgic for the old days of porting heads and biting off bigger projects. Hope it was informative for some of you 8-valvers out there. 

Anybody out there know who bought the P&P head from this car? I think it was a guy in Indiana, summer of '08 more or less.


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## jabutimbi (Mar 1, 2010)

This is really an awesome thread, any news on the car now? had you done anything past this point?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Car (and engine/head) is long sold.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

Actually, I did get in touch with the guy that bought it up in Michigan! Here's what he told me:



> the head is working well, it's currently installed on our race car that we run in EP. we've also got a set of gxsr750 itbs installed on it and it's running mega squirt. it moves pretty good. we're still behind the hondas in EP though. so i think it needs more port work, bigger valves and probably something bigger than the 270 cam. we had our cam and ignition timing horribly off and the car put down 102hp and 101ft lbs. that's without the ITBs or the megasquirt, i'd imagine it's up in the 140-150s or so now. we're just waiting for a dyno day to fine tune it.


I was stoked to see that it's still alive and well and that someone's still enjoying it 

Current project is a Mk3 ABA which has so far been baselined in the quarter mile, then cammed and chipped. I plan to do a similar thread once I have a bit more info to offer, probably next spring.


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