# The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (NOW FINISHED)*

I have just started my TB conversion on a audi 2.0 16v with mega squirt.
Here are some picks of the inlet manifold being built


























_Modified by aspro at 5:04 PM 9-2-2006_


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## EuroVeeDub (Nov 16, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

So did you just put the ends in a vice to get them oval shaped?


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

I have a set of the same throttle bodies for a project I'm planning and I've adjusted the bore spacing of the TB's to match the port spacing on the head. It looks like you're planning to angle the runners to meet the throttle bodies. Is there any particular reason you chose to do that rather then increasing the spacing the between the TB's?


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (EuroVeeDub)*

Yeah they squished almost perfect in a vice, the tubes are made from 50 mm ali scaffolding pole turned and bored to get the exact ID of the throttle bodies. 
I am going to angle the runners to meet the throttle bodiy spacing, you can see the line scribed in engineers blue.
Managed to find a nice fuel rail of an aplha twin spark this morning so i will be making up the fuel rail this week.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Sorry rocco i didn't answer you Q about spacing properly
I didn't respace the TB's because it just seemed easier to me to make the spacing in the manifold, because the manifold has to be chopped up a welded back together i thought i might as well build the spacing into the manfold design.
Also does anyone know where to get aluminium injector inserts in the UK ??


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Respacing the TB's turned out to be very easy so by my wasy of thinking, it's easiest to make all the runners identical. If I get a chance later today, I take a picture of my re-spaced TB's


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (ABA Scirocco)*

Yeah post pic, i wouldnt mind seeing detail on how you have linked the balancing levers after respacing.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Okay, here's a close-up of the linkage. A small piece was carefully MIG welded on to the tab then cleaned up with a die grinder to make the tab about twice as wide as it originally was, this needs to be done to 3 of the 4 TB's. 









And here they are reassembled, the bolts have been replaced with pieces of 5mm threaded rod and a few washers to space the TBs apart, eventually, I'll make up some aluminium spacers to replace the washer so the modification will look a bit more professional.












_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 8:20 PM 8-29-2004_


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

nice thread, keep the data flowing gang, Udig?


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (ABA Scirocco)*

Nice welding, did you DIY or get someone to do the MIG welding.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Nice welding, did you DIY or get someone to do the MIG welding.









Thanks, but it didn't look quite that nice before I hit it with the die grinder. I welded it myself. I'm a relatively inexperienced amateur welder so I was a bit worried about messing it up but with advise from a pro and a few simple precautions, it turned out really well, much easier to do than I had expected.




_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 10:41 AM 8-30-2004_


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (ABA Scirocco)*

I cut the angle into the runners last night so hopefully i can get the manifold welded together this week.
Also the alpha fuel rail didn't work out to well so i think i will make my own out of stock extusion that i saw here http://www.rossmachineracing.com/extrusion.html


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

BTW, I've heard, and maybe some else here could confirm, that the fuel rail from the VW 1.8T will work for our application.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (ABA Scirocco)*

if someone can confirm that, then i will have a look around because although a billet fuel rail will look good, it is gonna cost me to get the injector seats machined up.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Also have you built youre mega squirt yet, or are you going to use somthing else ??


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## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Yep, the 1.8T rail works. I'm using the passat style, but I'd like to get the golf/jetta square style one (i think it would look better)
Ben


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (BennyB)*

I am now having a fuel rail made by jenvey in the uk £48.00 all in as i am pretty desperate to get it sorted, plus it shoul dlook nice and neat.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

i have had the manifold tacked together, so pics will follow shortly


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

is this going in an Audi 80 sedan?


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

gotta luv the team work here, Udig? Haven't seen this kinda communication in other forums for a while. Keep up the good work !


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Hi Wizard,
got you IM but i thought it better to chat in this thread, Yes this is going in an Audi coupe I have just rebuilt it (with a lot of help)
The spec so far is:
Polished and ported head
new valves guides springs and followers
Piper fast road cams with adjustable cam gear
New pistons rings etc
balanced and lightend fly wheel
I am hopeing to post some new pics soon when i get a new camera.



_Modified by aspro at 1:16 AM 9-15-2004_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

how are you controlling eveyrthing?
034efi?


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

i will be controlling everything with megasquirt, but i have not got that far yet, i am taking my time with this mod as i don't want any f##k ups.
i hope to get the mega squirt built of the next 2 months.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

new pic's with headers tacked into place and the jenvey fuel rail


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

Looking good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm really liking that fuel rail, it looks a lot less bulky than most of the other billet or extruded rails you see out there, it's a nice clean look. How much do they charge for that fuel rail? And is it a stock item or is it custom fabbed?


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Hi ABA sicrocco
i got the fuel rail of the shelf from jenvey for £48.00 -- http://www.jenvey.co.uk if you tell them the injector spacing they can sort any fuel rail, and they put fittings on each end -6 JIC.
Also i found these for converting CIS and CIS-E injector seats to fit EFI bosch style injectors. 








goto http://www.034efi.com/components.html for more info



_Modified by aspro at 10:14 AM 9-23-2004_


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

£48.00 to be done with it and not have to machine billet rails etc, that's not bad. I wonder if the costs for importing it from the U.K. would be prohibitive? Anyways, they list a dealer in Canada, maybe I call him when I'm ready.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

If they have i disi in canada then i would go through them, i bet its a real pain buying anything from the uk at the moment.
Reading around on http://www.034efi.com i have become quite interested in there ecu as it seems to have more features than megasquirt, plus it looks very plug and play.
I don't know megasquirt or 034, im in a quandry now, do get the soldering iron out or just pay up and plugin ???
Is anyone here running 034efi ???


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

I'm procrastisting on buying an ECU, I'm hoping that the long awaited UltraMegasquirt system will be available by the time I'm absolutely forced to make a decision.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_I'm procrastisting on buying an ECU, I'm hoping that the long awaited UltraMegasquirt system will be available by the time I'm absolutely forced to make a decision.

http://www.034efi.com
Stage I is what you need.....if you just need to control fuel then Stage Ia is for you.
megasquirt what


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

The ultramegasquirt, when it's finally available, will have all the features of the stage Ic plus some really cool features not available with any of the the 034efi units, like wbo2 and canbus interface.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_The ultramegasquirt, when it's finally available, will have all the features of the stage Ic plus some really cool features not available with any of the the 034efi units, *like wbo2 and canbus interface.* 

and what makes you think these are not offered by 034efi?
maybe you should give Javad Shadzi a shout @ [email protected]
ask him a couple of questions.
Not beating down on MS as it is an excellent system in terms of what you get for the $$ but i am going the 034 route.
Why spend $10,000 on an engine to then turn around and use a cheap system because i am getting a good "bang for the buck"


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
and what makes you think these are not offered by 034efi?


mainly because there's no mention of these features on the website...the only mention of either is this:
"_EGO Sensor [1,3 or 4 wire only]-closed loop operation, programmable by user. Wide band 0-1v converted signal also supported_"
which is completely different from actually supporting the wide band sensor itself.

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Not beating down on MS as it is an excellent system in terms of what you get for the $$ but i am going the 034 route.
Why spend $10,000 on an engine to then turn around and use a cheap system because i am getting a good "bang for the buck"

One of the main things that I find attractive about MS is not just the price, it's the fact that it's 100% open source which promotes a very active user community that no other system at any price can match.


_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 3:31 AM 9-25-2004_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

http://www.motorgeek.com
034efi has its own forums.








It doesnt make sense for me to try and convince you to go 034 when you have made up your mind about MS.
I have just heard alot of people complain and say that MS was a good thing "then" and it served there "pocked" at the time.
Just make sure that the choice you have made is a wise one.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
It doesnt make sense for me to try and convince you to go 034 when you have made up your mind about MS.
I have just heard alot of people complain and say that MS was a good thing "then" and it served there "pocked" at the time.
Just make sure that the choice you have made is a wise one.









It may not seem like it but I do appreciate your efforts. At this point in time, neither MS nor 034efi has all of the features that I would like to see but these systems are constantly evolving, I know that MS (and probably others too) are headed in that direction so I'm hopeful that my patience (i.e. procrastination) will be rewarded. I have yet to make my decision about which EMU I will ultimately use. Cost while a definite consideration is not my primary concern, in addition to MS, I plan to research and attempt to fairly evaluate several of the commercially available units including 034efi before I commit to a system. And until I make that commitment, I'll happily entertain anyone's opinions.




_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 4:30 AM 9-26-2004_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_
I'll happily entertain anyone's opinions.


haha
good man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Sorry for not posting for a while, as i have been busy at work.
I think i am going to go with my initial decision of MegaSquirt, as half the reason for this conversion is to fill time and gain some experience.


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## rkrueger (Jul 23, 2003)

*Re: (aspro)*

I have been following this thread for a while and have really appreciated the information and pictures you have posted. I hope all is proceeding well and look forward to more posts http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (rkrueger)*

hi rkrueger
i have been busy at work, so my time on the ITB's has been limited but i hope to have moved on in the next 2 weeks.
Does anyone know if the original map sensor tubing on the GSXR TB's can used to plug in to the mega squirt MAP sensor or do i have to drill larger holes and use large diameter tubing.
Any thoughts guys


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

just received my injector inserts from 034efi to replace the CIS originals big thanks to javad at 034efi.


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## diablerouge (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

i'm surprised no one has been talking about megasquirt avr, which is way better, imo, than megasquirt. uses a different processor, so you can code it in c, and supports two wb02 channels, two egt channels, and much more. i've been researching this stuff for three or four years, and this is by far the best diy solution i've found yet. http://www.vems-group.org/
this is what will be managing my 1.8 race motor next season.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (diablerouge)*

I've looked into that one too, you're right, MS-AVR is a impressive system. It IS what the long awaited UMS system will be and then some. The only advantage that MS has over MS-AVR is that MS has a much larger and more active user community to help out users with problems. I'm a bit of a geek in so much as I love building stuff but I have fairly rudimentary electronic and programming skills so I find that's a very big plus for me indeed that's the main reason I'm leaning towards MS ahead of MS-AVR or any of the various commercially available units. But, as I stated earlier, I willing to be convinced otherwise if someone comes up with a strong enough counter-argument.


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## diablerouge (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

after looking through their sites, reading as much as i could about them, and watching the sites develop, it seems to me that the avr guys are more organized and their work is more professional than ms. the avr site is cleaner, contains more info about the system (not the theory), and they seem to be able to support it with fewer people. that means that they really know their stuff to me.
also i think the avr system has a better fundamental design in that everything you want in the system is designed into the board, not cobbled together like ms seems to me. ms looks and feels like it was developed in pieces and put together. avr is more of a package; they even had a really nice case developed, and use high quality connectors and such. i think avr has more potential in the development community because of the fact its run by c code, not assembly, which i and almost every other programmer i know hates. its needlessly complicated and just contributes to an archaic system.
if you haven't been to the vems site lately, i suggest checking it out again, as they've recently reorganized.
how much, total, does a ms system cost when counting in all the options you'd actually want like wb02 and such? i priced out an avr system at around $500. I think its an incredible value.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (diablerouge)*

just had a look at the VEMS system and i am v impressed, i am glad i havn't bought msquirt yet. i fact if i had had the money lying around last month i would have bought megasquirt but now i am glad i am skint as the VEMS does apear to be a superior system.
THANKS FOR POINTING VEMS OUT...


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## Junkyardrabbit (Jul 7, 2003)

*Re: (diablerouge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *diablerouge* »_i'm surprised no one has been talking about megasquirt avr, which is way better, imo, than megasquirt. uses a different processor, so you can code it in c, and supports two wb02 channels, two egt channels, and much more. i've been researching this stuff for three or four years, and this is by far the best diy solution i've found yet. http://www.vems-group.org/


AVR isn't megasquirt is it. And maybe I'm a moron (I'm ready) but how does anyone navigate http://www.vems-group.org. Maybe it's my crappy computer at work but where do you find out how much it is? Since I can't find the price, please someone tell me how much the ECU and software cost.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Junkyardrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Junkyardrabbit* »_AVR isn't megasquirt is it. 

It definitely isn't megasquirt, it used to be called MS-AVR, it started out as a megasquirt clone but used an Atmel AVR processor instead of the Motorola processor. That was a few years back, and it's taken on a life of it's own since and it's capabilities now far exceed the Megasquirt

_Quote, originally posted by *Junkyardrabbit* »_And maybe I'm a moron (I'm ready) but how does anyone navigate http://www.vems-group.org. Maybe it's my crappy computer at work but where do you find out how much it is? Since I can't find the price, please someone tell me how much the ECU and software cost.

It's not your computer, you might be a moron, but probably not, that site is a confusing PITA to navigate but well worth the aggravation, there's a ton of info there. BTW, the prices aren't on the site, you have to navigate through a few links to find them here, http://shop.x-dsl.hu/catalog/index.php?cPath=1


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## Junkyardrabbit (Jul 7, 2003)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_you might be a moron, 

Awsome!


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Junkyardrabbit)*

This project is now go again
i have now ordered my MegaSquirt n Spark with EDIS, so i hope to posting up progress soon.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

whats the story with the installation?Do you have any pictures of the engine bay?


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## oto1979 (Aug 22, 2004)

From what come from your itb? Wath diameter they are??? Thanks!!!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (oto1979)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oto1979* »_From what come from your itb? Wath diameter they are??? Thanks!!!

suzuki bike
40mm is the diameter.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

still waiting to receive my megasquirt
But i have got the EDIS module, crank trigger, vr sensor and coil pack.
Oh and a spare Audi crank pulley to mount the crank trigger to.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

nice,would have been nice to see it on 034efi though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Sorry Wizard, there just seems to be a bigger network of MegaSquirters.
Big thanx for the injector bungs...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Sorry Wizard, there just seems to be a bigger network of MegaSquirters.
Big thanx for the injector bungs...

np
I like MS too so it doesnt matter.MS and 034EFi are similar systems http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Things are now moving quickly
I have split down the EDIS loom from a ford escort (i will post the module part number later).
The loom has split perfectly giving me only a few wires to hook up to MegaSquirt.
I must say it is a very cute and simple ignition system, the only niggle is having to fit a 36 - 1 crank trigger wheel to the crank pulley, a few months ago i would of retro fitted one off a ford but i am running out of patience so i have bought one from Bill Brockbank at http://www.badger5.co.uk/ that should in theory bolt straight on.
Also i am getting the manifold finally welded together.
Does anyone have an ignition and fuel map for the 2.0 16v, it doesn't matter if it is for a standard config as i just need a starting point.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

aspro,Dont forget to tak pictures of the engine bay for me.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Does anyone have an ignition and fuel map for the 2.0 16v, it doesn't matter if it is for a standard config as i just need a starting point.


Here is a long time going thread specifically for 16v's.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1377841


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Hi wizard
At the moment the car is running around with KE Jetronic as daily runner. i hop eto get it in the shed soon and i will document the whole process..


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Here is the crank trigger and mounting boss i have been supplied by http://www.badger5.co.uk
nice n neet
























i had to increase the internal bore on the audi pulley to get the boss to fit. It turns out that the audi pulley's internal bore diameter is about 2-3 mm smaller than the VW pulley the boss is originaly designed for.


_Modified by aspro at 9:09 AM 2-9-2005_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Hi wizard
At the moment the car is running around with KE Jetronic as daily runner. i hop eto get it in the shed soon and i will document the whole process..

I just realised your in UK.That would explain the 16V Coupe


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Yep in the UK wizard, i reckon it will be the first 16v coupe on Msquirt in the UK.


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## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

There's a few of us running Golf valvers on MS on the right side of the pond. Feel free to give us a shout if you need any more 'local' help


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

thanks martyn, will give you a shout if needed. maybe we could start a squirters club in the uk, instead of trackdays we could have squirt days LOL


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Just received the 3.0 Bar fuel pressure regulator. 
obtained from http://www.jenvey.co.uk part No RIH03


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

unless that's adjustable why didn't u just get an OEM vw part?


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

thought it might look nice in the engine bay


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

It is pretty, it looks like a billet housing with a stock type Bosch regulator in it, is that right? If so, it could easily be upgraded to an adjustable one at any time if the need arises.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Its made by weber
there is a big circlip in top that holds down what looks like a generic bosch regulator.
The guys at http://www.jenvey.co.uk advised me to go this route, i did ask for an adjustable one but the guy there pointed out that i would be less hassle 
I would have needed a pressure guage etc to set up and adjustable which would have been extra expense.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Why would i need an adjustable one ??
If my injectors have a flow rating of 42 lbs at 3bar and megasquirt relies in knowing this flow rate as a constant it seems unwise to have the fuel regulator adjustable.


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## wawaprince (Jan 1, 2005)

if you use adjustable FPR, you'll need to correct the entire fuel table to the new injector flow rate, but if you're maxing your injectors, it could be cheaper than getting slightly bigger ones.
I agree however, it's defenetly not good idea to do this for tuning puposes ... stick to megasquirts calculator tools & softs.
have you made any progresses lately?
I live in Ontario, & I have the same ITB's

I have someone designing a manifold to right bolt on a VW 16v 9A engine, any suggestion about the manifold runner lenght?


_Modified by wawaprince at 7:18 AM 2-10-2005_


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (wawaprince)*

i have everything ready apart from the megasquirt. which should arrive any day now.
As soon as i get it i will install it, and fully document the process. pics / video etc.
The runner length i have gone with is 120 mm to throttle body, and i am making some velocity stacks to make up to 300 mm.
I wouldn't mind making some telescopic stacks so i can adjust the runner length with some cable from inside the car untill i find the best length. 

_Modified by aspro at 3:23 PM 2-10-2005_

_Modified by aspro at 3:26 PM 2-10-2005_


_Modified by aspro at 3:30 PM 2-10-2005_


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

THE MEGASQUIRT HAS LANDED
Got the megasquirt relay board and loom this morning. Sent by rodney at http://www.rs-autosport.com
Must say build quality looks excellent, and the loom is especially neat with input names printed all along each wire.


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## wawaprince (Jan 1, 2005)

indeed, it looks very clean.
I am impressed, I gotta see this one, keep us updated we might come & cheer up for you @ VW meeting this spring.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (wawaprince)*

Just got the throttle bodies back fully welded up so installed is on for this weekend. Will post pics later.
Throttle bodies - DONE
Crank Trigger - DONE
MegaSquirt - DONE
mm need to sort out fuel lines


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Here are the pics


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## bunnyluv (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (aspro)*

how did it go?


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (bunnyluv)*

Hey bunny
i spent all saturday installing the crank trigger and sunday installing the throttle boddies.
I had a bit of trouble trying to find a problem with the EDIS module which turned out to be a bad wire from the oem ford loom.
After sorting the EDIS out i turned the key and pop slap bang the engine burst into life,




























. promptly turned of though as i have wires running everywhere.
As it is now snowing big time i have had to put it to bed.
But so far so goooood
Pics soon !!!!


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## bunnyluv (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (aspro)*

Looks really good so far. I Wouldn't mind seeing more pics of the final install when it's complete. A few questions for you, if you don't mind. 
What is the wall thickness of the aluminum tubing you welded to the manifold? 
What was the cost of the 16v bolt on 36-1 trigger wheel? The bolt-on solution for that is nice.
Did you custom make a bracket to mount the VR sensor to the block? 
how are you planning on plugging the tb injector bungs?
throttle linkage?
how is the fuel rail fastened to the manifold?

Thanks


_Modified by bunnyluv at 10:35 PM 2-21-2005_


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (bunnyluv)*

Hey Bunny
The tubing is standard aluminium scaffold pole which turned down a tiny bit, the wall thickness is now about 4 mm
The cost of a trigger disk and boss is £100 - pretty steep, But i wanted it bang on and the ability to adjust it. The mounting boss is about £55 on its own.
I had to custom make the mounting bracket
the tb injector holes will be bunged with nylon gromets.
Throttle linkage mmm still got to sort this out, but i am sure it will be easy.
fuel rail is held with steel reinforced cable ties at the moment but i will get some aluminium arms welded on later.
Only small stuff to do now...















BTW i forgot to mention that i got a set of green bosch 804 42 lb injectors injectors for £5, that has to be the bargain of the project, i don't think the guy at the scrappers had his head screwed on

















_Modified by aspro at 9:18 AM 2-22-2005_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

aspro,
Running the same injectors/itbs for my itb project. Should work out well for you. More than enough fuel and should be able to modulate it at idle well enough to get a solid idle. 
How does the itb setup fit in your audi (in terms of rad clearance, etc)? I was taking some measurements this weekend and it looks like I'll need about 2" sections of alum tubing to make my mani using the stock flange setup like you have. I need to keep the valve to throttle plate runner length at no less than 200mm to keep the secondary intake pulse in the 7-9K range. You look to be well into the 3-400mm length which will help keep the hp/rpm peak in a usable range. I'll be running 125mm long velocity stacks on this setup as well. Should keep the intake velocity nice and high. Just running out of room up front. As is, my intake from the head to the end of the v-stacks is about 12" long not including my filter setup. Might have to force my rad under the rad support to gain some clearance from the tb's/rad shroud.
Any hood clearance problems? Looks like it's all coming out sweet. Keep up the good work and post some pics when you get a chance... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
I guess you are running this in a transverse application as you seem to be stuggling for space, take a look here for ideas http://www.badger5.co.uk Bill at badger knows what he is doing.
As my engine is mounted transversley i haven't got a problem with space to the side, it is just tight on hood clearance, i will be posting pictures soon so everyone can get an idea of how it fits.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Thanks for the link. Did realize you had longi mounted setup. Free's up some room like you mentioned. Hood clearance is going to be at a premium for both of us. I need to fit my filter setup in there as well. Will be running an ITG filter (not socks).
What I'm planning to do is go with a slimline fan setup mounted in front of the rad where the ac condensor was. Run a push setup. That should open up another 2-3" up front. As long as I can keep 200+mm from valve to throttle plate, I should be good (according to Badger).
Good luck with the project and let us know how it progresses.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

As far as i am aware the distance betwwen throttle plate and valve doesn't matter for correct harmonics, it is the total length off the system from the end of you velcoity stack to valve seat, or am i wrong ???


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Ummmm,,,, not totally sure. There is some correlation between length to the throttle plate that helps with harmonics but not totally sure what. I did some reading on it but have forgotten the details now. Total length is most important I think. With our setups, we actually gain some useful advantages by running the gixxer itb's because they are taper bored which basically makes the engine think there are longer runners there then there actually are. My velocity stacks are also taper bored flaring from 50mm ID at the ITB mouth out to about 85mm at the stack mouth. Helps to keep the intake velocity high into the head. My overall length is about 12" plus or minus right now from head to the end of the v-stack.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

I am going to run mine as is, first and then experiment with different length v stacks. untill it feels right. i reckon we will probabley both end up with the same total length.
How far away from installing are you ???


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Unfortunately I'm realistically a month and a half from getting mine in the car. Working on finishing the rebuild. Still waiting on my custom piston's from wiseco and eurospec rods. My motor will be right at the limit. 84mm bore, 12:1cr, 288* race cam's. Hoping to get it installed in April and have it running. 
You could always start with the factory zuke stacks. They have short and long rubber stacks that you could swap and see what happens. Cheap, made to fit and easy to swap....


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

are you going solid lifters ???


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

No, stayed with hydro. Too costly for the reality that the motor is still going to make peak HP numbers below where I need to switch over to solid lifters. Hydro's are near zero maint too so nice there. I am however, running light weight lifters vs the stockers. About half the weight, then Ti retainers and undercut valves, so hopefully the valve train will hold up. Probably turn about 8-8200rpm's on this setup and see how things hold up.


----------



## JediKGB (May 21, 2002)

*Re: (Fast929)*

where did you get your lightweight lifters from? I've heard that the stock mk4 (AEG) lifters were about half - 2/3 of the weight of the stock mk2 lifters.....


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (JediKGB)*

FFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I HAVE JUST GOT HER STARTED PROPERLEY AND JUST REVVING IT SOUNDS AWSOME !!!
GOTTA GET THROTTLE CABLE DONE
GOTTA GET THROTTLE CABLE DONE
GOTTA GET THROTTLE CABLE DONE
GOTTA GET THROTTLE CABLE DONE
GOTTA GET THROTTLE CABLE DONE
GOTTA GET THROTTLE CABLE DONE


_Modified by aspro at 9:27 PM 2-23-2005_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Congrats man. Great feeling I am sure. Lots of work, time, and money finally coming together. Really feels good to get it started that first time.
Hoping I have similar luck... lol


_Modified by Fast929 at 2:10 PM 2-23-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

I am absolutley freeking with excitement, about a year ago i was gonna spend over £2500 on a off the shelf system, then buy chance i stumbled across cdndub's original 8v post, a year later i have done it myself for less than £600.
At this point i would like to thank anyone who has so far contributed to this post, and especially cnddub for the orginal inspiration.
I am posting pics in about 20 mins.


_Modified by aspro at 10:26 PM 2-23-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*


----------



## d3x (Nov 26, 2003)

*Re: (aspro)*

I have a question for ya:
Im a n00b when it comes to standalones and everything (ie., ITB carbs all that junk) 
How hard was the Msns to setup in the end? Im thinking of getting it when i start my project, (the preassembled kit) How hard was it to grasp it all when you look back on it?
Just a quick reply will suffice, im not looking to hear how you did it yet, just wether or not it was failry simple...

Thanks, and AWESOME thread, ive been following since day 1. 
Adam


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (d3x)*

Hi d3x
nice one for keeping interest as i know i have taken my time.
firstly my megasquirt and relay board was supplied by rodney sparks http://www.rs-autosport.com so building the megasquirt was easy coz i didn't do it.
As for fitting it, it realy was very easy. Although planning / sourcing has taken time I literaly had it installed in 24 hours although i couldn't get a spark initialy because of a dodgy wire in the original EDIS loom.
If you work methodically and take your time there is no reason to fail.
BTW I can't stress how important it is to read the mega manual. Good luck and if you have any Q's just ask.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Look at dat Hotness!


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

hey wizard,
well i have got it running, and it sounds fantastic. Thanks for your help, especially the injector bungs...
so maybe a bit a boost next year....


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Just a thought has anyone got any ideas for an air filter


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Just a thought has anyone got any ideas for an air filter

4 K&N Units http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

ITG filter assembly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Just a thought has anyone got any ideas for an air filter

Have you seen this, it's Dave's (a.k.a. CdnDub)


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Great work, it's looking good. Turn that engine 90deg so it faces the right way and that's where I should be if I ever pull my thumb out and finish up


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martyn_16v* »_Great work, it's looking good. Turn that engine 90deg so it faces the right way and that's where I should be if I ever pull my thumb out and finish up









That would be a negative....Longitudinal setups own all!


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_
Have you seen this, it's Dave's (a.k.a. CdnDub)










Like I said, ITG filter....


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Oppppssss....
Double










_Modified by Fast929 at 5:14 AM 2-24-2005_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Hey aspro, what kind of room do you have between your altenator and the bottom of the itb mani? Looks pretty close. I'm not quite there yet but wondering how I'm going to clear the alt (assuming you have it mounted on a cut ac bracket), but still keep it clear of the hood???
Much clearance there??
Looks killer man. Great job. Very impressive...


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

What HT leads have you used? Do the Audi/VW ones fit the edis coilpack?


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
I have had to use a smaller alternator belt to get it to clear the TB's, i used a 863mm belt instead of the oem 887mm. The clearence is now about 5-8mm.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

Hey martyn,
I knew some one would spot this, firstley they are original leads but what i have done is screwwed brass wood screws into the ends that then fit into the cup of EDIS sockets.
I know this is far from ideal, and i will send the leads back to magnecor to get EDIS ends put on.


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*








I hadn't actually spotted that, I was just wondering as I was on my way out to the scrappy to go ignition hunting. If it works it works


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

martyn - i have been told that a EDIS 2nd Generation coil has the same plug towers for the original VW/Audi disi end plugs.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Hi ABAscirocco
I spoke to Andy Jackson at ITG today and they sent me some pictures on how to solve the filter problem.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

NICE!!! And that buggy is insane.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

You can use the factory suzuki velocity stacks and the ITG filter as well. The factory stacks have a groove designed the mate with the zuke airbox and seal it. Basically the same concept. Cdndub (dave) used the same setup and it worked great. The stacks are only like 15 bux too so cheap plus they have 2 lengths. I'll see if I can find a picture...
aspro,
Did you delete the ac from that setup? My goal/plan is to move the alt down to the ac bracket to gain the clearance I need to mount my ITB's. My setup is going to be pretty long so alt, hood, and rad clearance are of concern for me. Going to be tight in there but I think she'll go.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

I know! twin 750's, I guess it must have near the same power to weight ratio as the bikes the engines came off.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
My car has never had AC, it was never standard issue on audis during 1990's
The further you can move the alt the better, Its probabley a good idea to get rid of AC as you would need to do a FastIdle valve.
Pics of the zuke v stacks would be great !!
If anyone else wants to add images, information or ideas just go for it !...


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

I'm going to have to pull the ac out anyway. Might pull the power steering pump as well. Have to see if I can find a manual rack. 
Anyway, here is a thread with pics of Dave's old 8v with the same itb's as you and I are using with the zuke stacks on there. Works really well with the ITG filters and like I said, cheap. He went with 2 lengths because his runners were different lengths by a ways but worked out well....
Here is the link....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1454824


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

just had first run down road, still running rich but i will have this sorted in the morning....


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

god this mapping scenario is harder than i thought 
does anybody had a 12×12 fuel and spark map for a 16v on 43mm TB's ???



_Modified by aspro at 6:45 PM 2-27-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

On light throttle underload i am getting a loudish ticking noise from the throttle boddies, it sounds like i can hear the valves shutting???
It doesn't happen if i just open the throttle wide or rev the engine in neutral.
i thought it was detonation at first but its not happening when the engine is loaded up ????
any surgestions ???


----------



## greggearhead (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

Hmm. W/o being able to hear it it is hard to diagnose. Might actually be valve noise. Crazy what you can hear when the intake path is so short and direct. 
How are your lifters?


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (greggearhead)*

Its definatley not the lifters.
but i did notice a backfire on cylinder 3. at idle.
If cyl 3 is back firing then could this be a valve not seating back right ???


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

it could still be detonation, if your fuel/spark map isn't spot on for that light throttle area then my guess is you need to richen up that region and see if it goes away. and the backfire is also an indication of running lean. just remember, bucking=too rich and backfiring/popping=too lean. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
check this thread for recent updates in fuel and spark maps for 16v's. they aren't itb'd but it'll give you a starting point.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1377841


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Think i have an air leak, on cylinder 3 runner, after welding the manifold together it was a bit warped but i thought i would get away with it on bolting it to the engine. 
I will unbolt it tonight and get it refaced tomorrow.


----------



## greggearhead (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

Cool - glad to see you are making progress. And on the backfire comments: popping through the intake is lean, popping through the exhaust is rich. Bucking, surging, etc can be lean or rich. I learned it the hard way over years of jetting bikes and cars (before air-fuel gauges made it much simpler).


----------



## G_V_K (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Yep, the later Fords (Focus etc) have the pin type coil towers.
Good work aspro http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

Hi G_V_K
Will the later Focus coil pack plug into the older EDIS module ???


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

THE LONG AWAITED VIDEO IS HERE
http://www.bubblemedia.co.uk/u...t.wmv
eNJOY


----------



## JediKGB (May 21, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

WOW..how did you get everybody to drive on the wrong side of the road for your video?









hahah just kiddin....looking nice man..... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Sounds great man. Sounds like your getting there with the tune as well. You'll have to send me that file so I can see where you are. I'm sure I'll need the help. 
Looks awesome under there too. Nice job.
What are you running for cam's in there. What are you running the rev limit at now. Adjust it at all. Those ITB's should REALLY breath well up top.








Awesome job!


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast, 
the cams are piper fast road cams - not sure on the duration








Also which file do you want ???


----------



## tec_rabbit (Sep 14, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

Nice job. How does she pull?


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

I'd like to see what your running for VE table and then ign. Seems like you've got it running pretty solid. Sounds nice and clean. My tables will be a bit different due to my high compression (12:1) and really big cams (TT 288's) but it might get me in the neighborhood. No real rush on this as I'm still building the motor but wouldn't mind a peek later








Are you tuning via wideband 02? Any idea where you are a/f ratio wise? I'd set her up to run like 13:1 a/f at WOT. Should make best power in the 12.5-13:1 range. 
Looks and sounds killer. Very impressive.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

I am tuning by Seat of pants TM and Narrowband at the moment, it is still running rich at the moment, im going to get some data logging done tonight and see if i can sort it out more with MStweek.
I took crackerX's 8×8 maps and smoothed in the blanks to get 12×12 maps.



_Modified by aspro at 5:31 PM 3-8-2005_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Very nice. Sounds great.
What did you end up going with for v-stacks? What length in the end?
Good ol butt tuning. I like it...


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Fast929)*

like how you waited till you passed the photo radar box before punching it







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast929
The vstacks have come out a what would fit, i will measure the whole shabang later. and let you know


----------



## G_V_K (Dec 28, 2004)

Aspro , the 3 terminal block connector for the coil is the same, I think - will have a look tomorrow @ work ( I work in Ford dealership )
Sounds great BTW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by G_V_K at 12:03 PM 3-8-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

Hi GVK
If you can have a look that would be great because i won't have to convert my plug leads. I think








I have just realised that i have been to your website before, are you in the ringers club ??. Coz half the reason for this modification is to have a half decent blast round the ring later this year.


_Modified by aspro at 6:04 PM 3-9-2005_


----------



## G_V_K (Dec 28, 2004)

I had a look at a late (T reg) Mondeo and it had pin type leads v similar to VW/Audi and the 3 pin connector will fit an early coil too.
If I was really helpful I would've got you the part number, doh!
I'll get that today for you. The coil that's fitted to the 1250/1400/1600 Zetec-se and the 1800/2000 Focus /Mondeo Zetec-e all look the same, but some of them have the pairs of cylinders marked on the coil top, opposite way round, you can fit either though it makes no odds.
Yep, i'm on the 'ringers mailing list and have been to the 'ring 4 times so far....you'll love it








We're going for 4 days this year end July/August.

_Modified by G_V_K at 11:28 PM 3-9-2005_


_Modified by G_V_K at 11:29 PM 3-9-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

Thanks for finding out about the coil pack








part number would be great..
If i get the suspension and brakes sorted before july i might make the ring when you are there.


----------



## G_V_K (Dec 28, 2004)

Took a couple of pics this morning, the new coil will fit an old harness ( tried it on an old L reg Escort)
drop me a pm with you e mail addy and i'll send the pics to you.










_Modified by G_V_K at 10:43 AM 3-10-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

thanks for doing this GVK,
how do you send private messages ??, anyways here is my email mailto[email protected] 
I think you have helped solve a real PITA problem in finding this coil pack


_Modified by aspro at 1:45 PM 3-10-2005_


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

You didn't bloody help me when I asked the same thing on clubgti


----------



## G_V_K (Dec 28, 2004)

Sorry Martyn, must've missed your post < red face>
Here's the coil pack anyway new they're about £60 ukp
















And as I say, the early DIS wiring harness fits this later coil pack.
The only thing I haven't checked is that the 16v plug leads 'reach' the pins in the coil tower.




_Modified by G_V_K at 10:56 AM 3-10-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

Hi GVK
This coil looks absolutley bloody bang on, i get a string feeling the plugs will fit as well.
Big thanks for confirming this as it is going make it easyier / less expensive to run EDIS on megasquirt installs in the VW / Audi range.
what make / models / years should i be looking for in the scrappers ??
BTW i am so going to try and get to the ring this year, it would be nice to get shown the way round.










_Modified by aspro at 10:54 PM 3-10-2005_


----------



## G_V_K (Dec 28, 2004)

Anything S-T reg and newer
Focus with zetec engine
Mondeo 4 cylinder
Fiesta with Zetec engine (1250/1400/1600)
Be careful as i've seen some with corroded terminals and to be honest had a few coil failures ( multiple cylinder mis-fires) on Focus and Fiesta, but if you're getting them from scappy you won't be too bothered if it packs up after a while.
That's why I keep the coil in the pics to fit to customers cars to keep 'em going, if we don't have a new one in stock










_Modified by G_V_K at 4:09 PM 3-10-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

Hi GVK
I picked a new coil pack up from a ford garage.
The plugs go on with a bit of a push althought the boot is a bit slack, on the whole alot better than brass screws in the old EDIS coil pack


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast929
Apologies for not answering you V stack question earlier
The v stacks i have used are the exact ones of the buggy, and the total length from the face of the head to the lip of the vstack is 11 inches (misses is well happy







).
So with a bit added on from the head inlet face to the valve seat i reckon i am between 11 and 12 inches or about 293 mm as the european crow flies.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Thanks for the info. I'm really impressed with your build. You deserve a big







for getting it done. Really nice build and seems to be running well. Can't wait to get mine all set here. Finally got word late last night that my pistons were done at the coater and should be being shipped Monday. Sooooo hopefully I can get them later in the week and get all this stuff to the machine shop. Can't wait.
I'll be starting with my dizzy for ign but do plan to go with EDIS once I get it up and running. Sounds like you guys are really on to something with this coil pack setup. 
You've been an inspiration to all of us working on MS builds. Much appreciated. Keep up the good work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
Before you put the engine in get the EDIS trigger wheel on coz, it will be such a PITA to do once the engine is in.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Yaaaa,,,, I still haven't decided what I want to do for pulley's still either. Ideally I'd really like to go to a serp belt and run all the acc off one belt. Water pump, power steering, and the alt off one but I have yet to find a set of pulleys that will let me do this. I'm working on a custom mount setup for a later model Mk3 alt to run on my 16v so I can pull it down out of the way of my TB's for clearance. We'll see what I can come up with belt/pulley/crank trigger wise.
Thanks for the heads up though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## G_V_K (Dec 28, 2004)

Aspro, cool, you got one sorted, pity the leads don't fit 100%. As long as it works http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (G_V_K)*

I think all said and done that coil is the best solution to not converting the lead plugs.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi fast
can you explain why you are having your pistons coated ???, not heard of this before.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

I'm having the pistons coated for both wear resistance on the skirts (wiseco uses a slipper style skirt vs full rad skirts) and the tops are getting thermal coated as this will be a high compression motor with big bore (84mm) so heat could be an issue. Just making sure I can take all possible action's to help keep detonation under control.
My rings are getting coated as well. 
I got word Friday they were done and should be shipping today so hopefully this week. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast 929
Slipper style skirt ???
you are talking about stuff i don't understand, i might of figured out how to do the ITB's with megasqurt. But when people start talking internals it is and area that i have very little knowledge.








I am hopefully getting another 16v to build up as a turbo at which point i will get my hands dirty and have a look inside.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Slipper style skirts refer to the pistons and the way the bottom of the piston is designed. The portion that extends down that guides the piston in it's bore is the skirt. Most pistons have full skirts all the way around so it's shaped like a tube basically. The wiseco's I am getting use a slipper style which means the skirt only extends down front and rear in line with the direction of the crank stroke. Used to lighten the assembly while retaining the necessary support to avoid excess piston scuff. 
Here are some pix.
http://www.porttuning.com/83mm...s.htm


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Ahh i see.
When i ahd my engine rebuilt about a year ago the pistons from KS looked like that.


----------



## JediKGB (May 21, 2002)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_I'm having the pistons coated for both wear resistance on the skirts (wiseco uses a slipper style skirt vs full rad skirts) and the tops are getting thermal coated as this will be a high compression motor with big bore (84mm) so heat could be an issue. Just making sure I can take all possible action's to help keep detonation under control.
My rings are getting coated as well. 
I got word Friday they were done and should be shipping today so hopefully this week. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'm in the process of buildin a high comp. engine too and and was thinking but getting my pistons coated too....where'd you get it done and how much did it cost you?
btw: if your ever headed towards danbury area you should get a hold of me so I can checkout your setup.....I'm just over the border in NY off of 84...


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (JediKGB)*

I'm actually going through Chad Chapman @WearksGroup in Oregon. He's having Wiseco coat them for me. 
Chad worked with Wiseco to help optimize the piston dome design for my hi-comp NA app to help with combustion efficency as well as detonation and is coating the pistons as well as the rings. Basically these are full race spec items. Total cost is up there some but should all be worth it in the end. 
Ya, I get down Danbury way pretty often. Got a buddy who lives out there. We should definately get together some time. Hoping to get the motor/MS in say April/May time frame.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Aspro,
Ya, just another way to make them. I thought I read something about it helping with crank case turbulance some but can't find the article I read now. Suppose to offer the same stability in the bore without the extra weight....


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

I have just ordered a wide band controller so i can get my mixture bang on.
Cost £200 but i guess it will be worth it.
Once i have got a dialed in spark and fuel map i will post it up


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

I think that will really help you get her dialed in. Set it up to run like 13:1 WOT and that should be about where the motor will make best power for you. Have to work on part throttle driveablility after that but it'll get you right in the ballpark.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Some more pictures*

Some more pics


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Some more pictures (aspro)*

Still waiting for wideband heaven


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Some more pictures (aspro)*

looks nice man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Some more pictures (MidnightGLI)*

Looks even better as of today, i have put all the wires into conduit so it doesn't look like multicoloured spaghetti


----------



## OhioBenz (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: Some more pictures (aspro)*

Does MS accept a 60-2 trigger wheel?


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Some more pictures (OhioBenz)*

Hi ohio
i think MegaSquirt does support various trigger wheels now, but check here first http://www.msefi.com


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: Some more pictures (aspro)*

Aspro,
Got any more pics? I'd love to see her all cleaned up ready to go. How's she running? Looks great.
Any luck getting your WB02 in yet? Should help big time.
I finally got my pistons in from Wiseco here in the states. Absolutely beautiful items. They did an outstanding job with them. Really looking forward to getting them installed. I'll get some pics up here in a next few days...
Eric....


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Some more pictures (Fast929)*

Hi Fast929
I am still waiting for the wideband. that will teach me to order something from the other side of the world.
She has been running ok but i am still cruising about.
But she has developed an oil leek from the crankshaft seal near the clutch. i get the feeling the gearbox is going to have to come down to sort this out, got any ideas how you replace this seal?
There are a few more pics here http://www.acidtrax.net/events....html they are from an audi owners club meeting this weekend.


----------



## tigerprawn16v (Sep 18, 2004)

*Re: Some more pictures (aspro)*

nice post http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i was ready to drop 1400 on a tb setup, now i'm aprehensive...we'll see how this years bonus goes


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Some more pictures (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
the wide band is here -- WHOOO HAAAAA


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

I have been using the wide band for the last 2 weeks and it has improved the fuel map loads using the speed density setting in megasquirt. BUT i have now realised that i need to us alpha N instead of speed density.
The throttle bodies are realy harsh and when only 15 - 20 % open all the vacuum goes out of the manifold, which is a real pain to tune.
I am going to try and set them up using alpha N which is based on RPM and throttle positon , as opposed to MAP.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Nice wideband setup. Looks like she's really getting there now. Get the tuning squared away and should be good to go. 
I'm a little worried about the tuning myself. Like you said, big throttle plates and even a small amount of throttle opening kills all the vac in the system. Could make tuning trouble-some. Might want to hit Dave (cdndub) with your data-log stuff and see if he can help. He know's MS really well and has set up several cars now both NA and FI running MS with very good results. 
Can't wait on mine. Getting closer all the time to getting the motor buttoned up and ready to go. Be on the look out for a thread on it in the near future. Just waiting on a few little items...


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi fast
I forgot to add that i have had the timming set at a fixed 20 Deg advance with no discernable signs of detonation.
I will give alpha N ago in the next 2 weeks, and report back. I don't think it is imposable to tune the TB's with speed-density but i think Alpha N is going to be a lot simpler.
Come on get her running !!!


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

How's the part throttle running right now? Lots of stumbles or have you got most of that worked out now? I'll assume getting WOT set is pretty easy now with the wideband. Look to get her running 13:1 or so across the board and should be good. 
Part throttle I would think might be somewhat harder. I need to read more on how to set it up. Speed density I would think should give better results but not totally knowing the programming of each, not sure. Have to read up some more on it. 
Good luck and keep us posted. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

The part throttle seems fine but i need to get her closer to 13.1. How far away is yours from being ready ???.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Well,,,,, got everything I need minus a few little pieces. My full MS+S is here. Just got the manifold cut up this weekend so I need to get that welded back together and get my ITG filter. Bottom end is about done. Just need to get my IM shaft back from the machine shop (should be here by weeks end), and I'll be ready to start buttoning it up. 
So, I'm still a little ways from having it done I guess. Hoping in another few weeks if all goes well.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

got a real pain of a problem at the moment
if i have been cruising on the motorway for a while and then pull off at a junction, when i go to set off i get loads of smoke ???
it doesn't apear to be running to rich on decel either. ???
any ideas ???


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Talking black smoke? That to me would indicate a rich decel enrichment setting. How about if you are cruising steady state and then WOT? Any black then?


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

steady stats to WOT is ok. it happens when i coast off at a junction.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Gotta be something with the decel enrichment then. Dumping fuel in once the TB's are shut.. Hummm.........








You have data logged for running?


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

i have just done a compression test, the engine was warmed up 
1 = 10 bar
2 = 10 bar
3 = 12 bar
4 = 10 bar
Is 10 bar low ?? because it is just on the adge of the green zone on my meter?


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

According to my Bently, 10bar is still in the "NEW" engine range. Wear limit is 7.5bar with a max difference between cylinders of 3bar. I would think that would fine. How many miles on the bottom end? 
Smoking blue on decel or black? Black should be fuel, blue would be oil from somewhere. Could be valve seals or rings (doesn't sound like either though).
Have you tried to enter leaner decel enrichment settings and see if it makes a difference? Like WAY leaner. Worth a shot.....??????


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

bottom end has done about 10 - 12 k since last rebuild.
I will try setting the decel enrichment to 50% i have it at 100 at the moment.
i have set decel so the engine doesnt go lean at all, have thought this out right ???. i have work on the principal that lean is BAD and therefore i have set decel up so the engine never goes lean when i snap the throttle shut.
Can i run the engine lean when coasting downhill or off at a junction ???


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Ya, I think you can go lean like 15-17:1 on decel, though I'd like to hear from others. Same with steady state cruising I believe. Wouldn't go that lean for steady state but 14:1 should be no prob on a 10:1 motor. 
As far as I know, Digi actually shuts the injectors completely down on decel at some point so no fuel at all. I'd run those numbers wayyyyy down and see what happens. You won't hurt the motor at all. Even like 20:1 on decel should be ok. 
I just sent Dave (cdndub) an e-mail on it. I'll post his recommendations once I hear from him....
Eric.....


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Heard back from Dave. 20:1 on decel is about right. No load so only need a touch of fuel in there. No problem at all and what he ran his GTI at so I'd setup the decel enrichment so you run about 20:1 AF and see what happens. Motor is too new to worry about rings and such.
Should be good to go then. Try it and let us know...
Eric...


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
i set the decel enrichment to 50 - 75 - then back to 100
there was now change in the amount of smoke, and i have noticed that it is now bluish (arrrrrghhh).


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Still sounds fat to me (rich). What were you getting for a/f ratio on decel with the enrichment cut back? 
Do you have any data-logging done for normal driving? Would be benefical to see what's going on via that? Either from MS or from the wideband setup. Both "should" allow you to log a/f vs sayyyy,,,,, throttle position or map reading. Worth a look. I know we can find where it's hanging up. 
How's accel/steady cruising? Nice and smooth?


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
i will get a good datalog on my way home tonight.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Sweet. Send me the file ([email protected]) and we'll see what we can do with this.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Aspro,
Any luck with getting things sorted? Interested to hear how it's running for you.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Sorry fast i havn't had chance yet. i am still trying to get Alpha N working as the last release of MSnS to have it was 021u3 so i will have to down grade a bit.
I am sure that the problem i am having is because at 30 % throttle all vacumm is lost from the intake so the i am at the top edge of the map with plenty of opening left in the TB's.
I will make a big effot to get Alpha N sorted this weekend, sorry for not getting back online sooner.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Oh, not a problem at all. Just interested in how your tuning is going. I'm going to be heading down this road very shortly so I'm kind of learning some things while you sort yours. I want to see this baby up running right!
You'll have to fill me in on the alpha N tuning method once you get a chance. Not familiar with it. Sounding like I'll probably be heading down that road shortly? Is alpha N specifically for EDIS users?


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Fast929)*

doesn't alphaN simply use TPS % in place of MAP values? which from what i hear is good for big lumpy cams, ITBs but not good for boost. i could be wrong though, never really had the need to look into it any further.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Same here. Not really sure on it's practical applications. If it's good for big cams/itbs, might be right up my alley as well. Anyone know if there is a way to blend the two? The problem I see with TPS only is on low rpm to WOT transitions, I could see it struggle a little with proper fueling. I'd like to be able to set it up for both but like aspro stated, he's running zero vac at like 30% TPS. Not sure of a good way around that. Guessing I need to study up on it some more.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Fast929)*

well my understanding is that alphaN doesn't really take vaccum into account therefore at 30% he'd only be getting 30% of the fuel. but like i said, i may be totally off.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Aplha N doesn't take MAP into consideration at all, it just uses rpm against throttle position to get to the right fuel Bin, so it would be use less for boosted aplications.
I have eliminated some problems this week:
1. i noticed a slight missfire so replaced the plugs (ehich where 2 years old). This has highlighted what an idiot i have been because as soon as i changed them the car improved loads. Why did i not put fresh ones in when i started mapping ??.
2. The air inlet temp sensor has been soaking heat while mounted in the air box so i moved it to an ambient position in the engine bay. I think it has made an improvement .
Also found that the smoke is coming from oil leaking onto the down pipe, i think it is leaking either from the crankshaft seal or the oil filter. Im gonna change the oil filter later to see if the seal has broken
I promise todo a datalog tonight.



_Modified by aspro at 3:34 PM 5-1-2005_


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

Man, great post and nice build. Hope you get all the little fiddly bits and details sorted out


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (Mr Black)*

Aspro, 
Sounds good. Amazing what new plugs can do. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif So you thinking the decel smoke is from vacumme pulling oil through the seal? Would be nice. Well, not nice in that it'll require some teardown but nice in that it's not efi related.
Keep us posted.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

The oil leak is now repared,
I knew that the oil leak was from the crank oil seal area, so to investigate more the gear box had to come off.
So today i took the car to http://www.qrsport.com to get it fixed.
Tim and Yan at qrsport are building quite a reputation in the UK audi comunity, for the quality work they do, and products they design and supply, (people drive 400 mile + just to get their cars serviced there)
turned out to be the gasket that fits between the block and the aluminium seal housing, it had been fitted the wrong way round and had started to break up. 
1:30 pm : arrive at qrsport
1:40 : car on ramp - 30 mins of audi talk
2:10 : start work
3:40 : subframe of and gearbox removed.
4:30 : seal removed and refitted.
5:30 : everything almost back on
6:00 : done
6:00 - 7:00 discussed building a 5 cylinder 20v on ITBS with trubo !


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (aspro)*

are you concerned about the angles on the manifold runners? i'm working on the same thing you are and i'm thinking it might be worth it to space the ITBs out to make a straight shot into the head and not angle the air path. and also how much did that ITG filter run you?


----------



## bunnyluv (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (aspro)*

Just regarding the alpha-N vs. speed-density issue. I've read about honda drivers retrofitting bike tb's to their cars and map issues they had in the process. They ended up using a vacuum canister tied to all four runners of the itb manifold to achieve a better part throttle map signal. There were issues with size the canister affecting the map output signal and much trial and error to find the canister size that resulted in smooth engine operation throughout the rev band. Ultimately, they were successful. Just another option if alpha-n doesn't work out well for you. I'll try to find the links and post them up for you if you're not anti h-car.


_Modified by bunnyluv at 12:51 AM 5-19-2005_


----------



## 88mkIIGOLF (Aug 14, 2004)

i just read this whole post and i really like your setup. i am thinking about doing something similar with hayabusa throttle bodies. how hard is the edis ignition to setup i am looking into that as well?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (88mkIIGOLF)*

Wow, cant belive i didnt spot this thread sooner, someone just emailed me a link, the 16V on ITB's looks simply stunning, i'm glad what i did was an inspiration for so many people.. Certainly seems there are a growing number of ITB's VW's running around on a budget








I just watched the vid, the motor sounds great, brings back some serious memories for me.
your note about vacuum in one of your earlier posts i noted you had a pic of your ITB's with only one vacuum line connected.. do you now have all 4?
are you running a vacuum reservior to smooth out the map signal a little.. without a plenum it makes things a little "twitchy"
I hate to admit it but i used an old Spice container <from the kitchen> it was glass with a plastic lid, two holes drilled in the top for 1/8npt barb fittings and a little glue around the lid and some electrical tape to make sure it wasnt leaking any air and it held up great for quite some time.
Smoothed out my idle quite a bit.
the other thing you will want to do if you havnt already is go find a carb syncrometer you know the tool dual downdraft or DCOE guys use for syncing up their carbs.. even with EFI you will want to balance the throttles.. mine were close with a new block/head but i still had to tweak each cylinder by 3-5% and it sounded quite a bit smoother when i was finished.
I apologize if i'm doubleposting info that others have already mentioned I just dont have time to read 6 pages of posts right now.
Hope its still running well
Dave


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MidnightGLI* »_are you concerned about the angles on the manifold runners? i'm working on the same thing you are and i'm thinking it might be worth it to space the ITBs out to make a straight shot into the head and not angle the air path. and also how much did that ITG filter run you?

The angles of the outer runners don't seem to have caused much of a problem, i think the difference in distance to valve seat is nominal anyways.
Oh the ITG was about £100 GBP (the most expensive bit) but i reckon well worth it for peice oh mind.


_Modified by aspro at 7:26 PM 5-24-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Hi CdnDub
wondered when you would get round to spotting this.
I am running vacuum from each runner, i think the photo you saw was when i was building the tbs up, anyways i have also added a motorbike fuel filter inline which has smoothed out the idle.
I do still have to synch the TB's as i reckon they are well out, so i will be getting a 4 up manomter soon.
I also get a funny ticking sound when the throttle is at a certain position, I think it is the butterflies fluttering, was wondering if you had this problem?
The biggest problem i have is that the MAP is atmospheric when the TB's are only about 40 - 50% open. Which makes me think i should really switch to Alpha N so i have more resolution.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

I'm surprised you go straight to atmospheric at 40-50% throttle.. 
I definitely dont recall a funny ticking sound at part throttle do you have any play between the throttle plates <maybe the adjusters need tightening up>
My gti with 8x8 fuel maps had 5 bins between 85 and 100kpa to give me the resolution i needed in order to tune accurately
most power was made at 97kpa <i live near sea level we usually see 96-99kpa depending on the weather and where i'm driving>
With 12x12 maps things ended up even smoother as i was able to get even finer between MAP points
you could try out the alpha/TPS blend, the issue with vaccuum on a large cammed motor is usually that you have no vaccuum at idle to tune with, at higher rpm there should be enough vacuum to map out a fuel and ignition map.
Do you have a datalog.. feel free to email it to me at [email protected] i'd love to take a look.
Cheers,
Dave


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Hi Dave
After our email conversation last week about various remaining issues, i spent time this weekend balancing out the throttles.
I couldn't get a flow meter for this weekend so went about the process a little differentley.
i first removed the the TB's and then adjusted each throat with a feeler gauage. I know this will not be perfect.
It has now improved the idle to the point where there is no noise on the MAP signal, and the ticking i talked about has disapeared.















I will get a flow meter next week to do this properley.
But in the mean time i owe you a big thanx http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

thats great news.. the reason you want a syncrometer is not to make the throttle plates the same as each other its to make the cylinders even as to what air they pull.. so that each puts out approximately the same amount of power <makes for a smoother ride>..
If your compression ratios are all identical then you are likely fine but if you are like 160,170,176,165 then all 4 cylinders will pull slightly different amounts of air, and by balancing the throttles you restrict each one equally..
Sounds like you are on the right track though.. just making sure the throttles are nearly the same will get you 95% of the way there.. i only had to do VERY slight adjustments to mine to get the cylinders within spec of each other. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Hi Dave
I figured i would have to do them properley for exactly the reason you stated. The feeler gauge has worked enough to get i good idle and smooth cruise.
MStweek3000 has now given me a realy good cruising Map.
Big thanx Dave
*NB TO ANYONE ELSE DOING THIS CONVERSION* 
You should spend time balancing the throttles first, because when you come to MAP cruising and idle, badly balanced throttles will make your AFR wobble all over the place, as one or more cylinders could be running lean when others are running rich. For some reason, probabley over entusiasm i over looked this and have spent the last month trying to Map an engine which just couldn't be mapped.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Awesome news. Sounds like your well on your way now. I'll be needing to do the same once I get mine together. Sounds like your getting close now. Should run really well.
Another big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for Dave and the support here. Dave, this is Eric B. Talked with Scotty this weekend. Sounds like you guys have a nice deal going together with the MS builds. Very cool. Sounds like things are progressing nicely.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hey Eric.. cant wait to hear how your 16V runs after all the hard work.. seems like MS is the perfect fit for a lot of people, its not overly complicated <try tuning motec sometime> but has enough features for most..
And with the ECU's me and Scott are putting on the market we're rolling in quite a few of the extra features so that guys on a budget can do things like boost control, overboost protection <hard fuel cut if you exceed X psi>, ignition control, table switching so you can have two fuel/ignition and boost maps accessible at the flip of a dash mounted switch.. great for the track, we use that feature on our suzuki race car for racing in the rain.. in the dry we have boost set at 22psi and water injection turned on.. in the wet we disable water injection, and limit boost to 14psi to keep wheelspin down
And if people need more features we're also offering a full sequential system with built in wideband/egt/knock support
wasnt meant to be a sales post, but I get excited about this stuff whenever I get to talk about it.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Sounds like things are really starting to take off. Nice to hear.
Yaaaa,,,, hopefully this thing will run solid. Been a long time coming. What's your thoughts on adding MSII? Worth the addition? Still need to get mine setup but I have read there are some nice new features. Just hope I can get her to run.








Nice to see the "little guys" making it somewhere in the land of corp rule. Congrats and keep up the good work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## doobmotorsport (May 1, 2005)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

what are those TB ??
thank's doob


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (doobmotorsport)*

WHooooo HAAAA
I managed to get Alpha N working today, and it has solved the problems above to do with the MAP going atomspheric at 10 - 20 % thottle, as megasquirt now use TPS / RPM, instead of MAP /RPM.
CdnDub - i have no idea how you managed to get you TB'd 8v working with speed density.
Anyone have a timing table for a TB'd 16v using Alpha N ?? or the standard table plotted TPS against RPM ??


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

It wasnt easy







i nearly gave up a few times thinking it was impossible.
In the end it managed to pass local emissions tests using the MAP sensor and Wideband Oxy feedback <really helps clean up emissions during cruise.>
glad to hear its working though, with oxy feedback for cruise you should have a very driveable vehicle.
Note on the Ignition map.. you could just try bringing in all your ignition by 3000rpm like a lot of racers.. find what feels good at idle and then fill the map in between.. the rest will be tricky with only TPS since vacuum is an easy way to sense load and therefore increase or decrease timing appropriately.



_Modified by CdnDub at 5:45 AM 6-12-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (CdnDub)*

Hi Dave
The Wideband keeps everything at cruise around 14.7 and 13.1 at WOT.
What is a safe highest advance value for the 16v, above 3000 at WOT i am currentley running about 22 deg and above 3000 with throttle closed i am runing nearly 40 deg. Idle is set at 8 Deg at the moment.
Am i approaching this right or am i heading for a FTMD (full thottle melt down).


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

My 8V Na motors have liked 34-36 deg's of total advance, <different combustion chamber design> but i have run that much timing on 12:1 compression with 94 octane <98 in europe> pump gas without pinging and the dyno showed that was where max power is.
I'm sure a 16V will happily advance up to 32 or 34 deg's at WOT after 3k
22deg's sounds like the advance you'd see if you were running 10psi of boost etc.
I'm not a huge 16V expert so someone feel free to step in and correct me.
you can also run more advance at idle if you want to, 10-15 deg's is pretty common.. My 8V 12:1 motor liked 20 deg's of advance at idle since it didnt have much compression down low.


_Modified by CdnDub at 6:39 PM 6-12-2005_


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## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (CdnDub)*

the most advance i could push out before i started loosing power and pinging was about 30 degrees, so i run 26-28 after 3k at WOT. i've posted this before, but i'll throw it up again. this spark map for 16v has been taken from the factory ignition timing with a few modified regions and slightly advanced overall. BTW, the high spark advance at 500 rpm is to smooth out clutch in idle drops and easier starting, works beautifully with no IAC or Fidle valve.








this is the factory ign map someone posted up a while ago and what i used to create the map above.









_Modified by MidnightGLI at 1:44 PM 6-12-2005_


_Modified by MidnightGLI at 1:45 PM 6-12-2005_


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (MidnightGLI)*

Thanks midnight
I have used both these maps when using speed density, but i am now running Aplha N.
Where do you reckon 20% 50% 70% throttle position is on the maps above.
I think i will have to analise a log file to see what TPS relates what MAP and work from there.


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Thanks midnight
I have used both these maps when using speed density, but i am now running Aplha N.
Where do you reckon 20% 50% 70% throttle position is on the maps above.
I think i will have to analise a log file to see what TPS relates what MAP and work from there.

with ITBs, i would have no clue... but if you check your datalogs you can see for sure. just find your TPS and when it's at 50 check your MAP. best bet would do some driving and do a lot of cruising at steady TPS values, that would give you a real good idea.


----------



## flusted16v (Jun 13, 2004)

can someone explain the top graph? i understand rpm along top but wot numbers are down the side??


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (flusted16v)*

Numbers down side are MAP Manifold Absolute Pressure 100 = atmosphere or wide open the throttle.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (MidnightGLI)*

I have done a datalog, and graphed MAP / TPS








should i average each set of values at each MAP point to get a basic idea of the TPS value for said MAP.
crap just realised i need to throw RPM into this...


_Modified by aspro at 5:32 PM 6-13-2005_


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

try dataloging in MSLV and do a screenshot and post that up, your graph below is funky. and as you stated before, you loose pretty much all vaccum at 25% throttle.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (MidnightGLI)*

how do i datalog in MSLV ????


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

do a "full datalog" in megatune and then go to msefi.com download section and get MSLVV log viewer. then just open the .xls file created by megatune in MSLVV.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (MidnightGLI)*

Sorry i thought you meant that you could use MSLV in realtime


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

I have increased the length of the runners this weekend, to get a bit more torque lower down the rev range.
I have also moved the Inlet Air temp sensor into the coupling hose on runner 4 as it was suffering from heat soak when fixed to the aluminium back plate of the air filter.


----------



## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

WOW








things are looking good! whats it like to drive?
If you don't mind, I have a few vacuum questions:
1)That red line is what gives your FPR vacuum yes? then it goes to your MAP sensor? did you use a bottle inline to smooth things out? how big?
2)what are you using for vacuum to your brake booster?
3)do you have a fast idle manual choke or something? what is the line that comes off the idle screw on the last tb and where does it go?

sorry for so many questions







Im curious







keep up the good work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (jib.ninja)*

Hi
To drive slowly it is a bit of a dog, but get it above 3500 RPM and it sounds like a dragon stubbing its toe















Answers to you Q's
1) Yes the redline is vaccum tube that goes to the FPR and then into a small bike fuel filter (damper) and then to the MAP sensor.
2) The brakes on the audi are hydraulic assisted.
3) I don't have fast idle yet, but because of the duration of the cams i have to idle about 1100 RPM, the black thing is a cable drive to the idle screw, it came with the TB's.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Aspro,
Looks killer man. Nice job http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Sounds like you are getting closer with it tuning wise as well. How was alpha-N to setup?
Nice samco hoses too. Where did you pick those up? Did you end up using 45* silicone couplers from the manifold to the tb's? Tough to see. Working on something for mine as well. 
Also, how much room do you have between your alt and the bottom of the itb's? Thinking about relocating the alt for mine as space is going to be tight?
Overall, very well done. Hope you can really get her tuned. Looks great.

_Modified by Fast929 at 9:11 AM 6-16-2005_


_Modified by Fast929 at 9:14 AM 6-16-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Fast929)*

Samco hoses are from demon tweeks and are 76 mm long, the internal diameter is as close as i could get to the itbs.
i had the fortune of having some rubber tube lying around in the garage that made the connection between manifold and TB's.
For the alternator i used a smaller belt that allows me 8 -10 mm clearance between the TB's and alternator.
Alpha N works miles better than speed density for this setup. and with the wide band i had it tuned within 8% in an hour.
Remeber Alpha N won't work with turbos...


_Modified by aspro at 5:39 PM 6-16-2005_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Awesome info. No FI here. All itb's.








I'll have to get with you once I get my ecu installed. Not real familiar with alpha-N, though, I can see where it might work better in this application (might be our only choice). Odd the vac falls off so fast on the 16v. Going to be interesting to see how it works out once I get to tuning.
How's your part throttle tuning going? Car driving smoothly? How's throttle response?
Really looking good. Nice to hear she's running well too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Fast929)*

His Vacuum falls off fast.. I've helped others with those exact same ITB's on 16V's and they dont drop off anywhere near that fast.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
I thought you were going turbo ??
I found Alpha N so much easier to setup than speed density. Its all down to my motors character thought, as CdnDub points out i have massive vaccum drop over a small thottle opening. Take a look at the graph / plot above.
part thottle was easy enough with wide band hooked up.
i actually spent about 2 - 3 weeks of logging to try and get speed density working reasonabley well, but it only took me an hour with Alpha N.
Are you in the UK ?


----------



## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_His Vacuum falls off fast.. I've helped others with those exact same ITB's on 16V's and they dont drop off anywhere near that fast.

CdnDub: is that where most people pull vacuum for the MAP sensor?
thats the hole that is partly covered with the tb plate when the throttle is closed yes? 
Aspro: where did you have the intake air temp sensor located before. I've been trying to think of a good place to put mine... was going to tap one of the injector holes larger... but I like your idea... Did you silicone it in there? Do you think it would be ok if I put it after the tb in my silicone connectors?


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (jib.ninja)*

Don't stick it in anything metal.
The silcone hose is great coz it doesn't collect heat well.



_Modified by aspro at 7:10 PM 6-16-2005_


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

an open cage MAT sensor can be mounted in metal pipe or flange since it wont heat soak from the metal around it.. if you use the GM style coolant sensor for both MAT or IAT and the CLT temp then you can easily heatsoak <had that exact issue with my ITB's with the counterflow manifold>
Most of the ITBs with the suzuki parts i've seen use those vacuum ports and they generally work quite well. 
Suzuki used them for their stock ECM so i'm not sure why they wouldnt work for us.


----------



## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (CdnDub)*

thanks for all the help guys! wow, you've answered/confirmed some things that have puzzled me for a while. Are/did either of you use the suzuki tps? I've been trying to figure out which wire is which.
Sorry for asking all these questions in your post Aspro


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (jib.ninja)*

Yes, all of us are using the zuke tps. Std 3 wire configuration that MS needs. Need to calibrate MS thru megatune so it know's 0-100%.
Aspro, 
Nope, itb's my man. Same one's as you. wiseco forged 12:1cr, P+P big valve head, 288 cam's, eurospec forged rods, lightened/balanced/k-edged crank. The works. Running a custom mani I designed with zuke itb's. MS+S extra running the deal.
Dave,
It'll be interesting to see what the vac looks like with those 288's in there. With the intake runner length addition we were talking about yesterday, might help add some/keep it a little more progressive. We'll see.
On the IAT, run the gm open element version as Dave mentions. I have the PN but not here. Can mount it in the air filter plate (depending on your filter) or like apsro did inline.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Fast929)*

Hi all
Well since changing to Alpha N the fueling has been much better, but i can't seem to get a spark map that is TPS / RPM based.
I know i should be at around 32 ADV when cruising above 3000 rpm.
Does anyone have a spark map like this, or an example of how one should look when using Alpha N ??


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

you'll have to do what i said before, run a really long datalog with all kinds of driving conditions (light throttle, moderate throttle, etc) and then view the datalog and figure out how your TPS relates to your MAP values. i was curious and did this last night, at like 15 TPS i was at like 60 MAP and 30 TPS i was at 80 MAP, the datalog was pretty short so i couldn't pull too much info from it. thats going to be your best way of doing it IMO.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (MidnightGLI)*

Hi Midnight
I am going to log loads of drives over the next week. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
BTW Love the stealth look Jetta


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Could my MAP drop off rate be due to cam timming being a tooth out ???


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

didnt i suggest that in the emails we talked about








you could definitely have your cam out a tooth.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

Yep, tons of overlap and bam, no vac.....
I'd say it's definately possible....


----------



## flusted16v (Jun 13, 2004)

It would be gutless as hell if it was inter cam timing


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (flusted16v)*

It has plenty of guts from 4000 on. 
so i guess it is ok.
i had a peugeot in the past that slipped a tooth, and just thought the audi might have done the same.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Fast
when you are ready to roll just shout and i will send my maps.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Hi Dave
Hear is my design for a carb balancer, i reckon it will have to be about a meter high if a use water.


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (aspro)*

Looks like a great idea actually.. are the lines on the board Inch measurements.. IE inches of water under vacuum.. that will likely work pretty well..


----------



## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

that looks similiar to mechanical synchronizers. one q though: where do you plan on plugging it into? will you disconnect the MAP lines?


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (jib.ninja)*

On aspro's setup there are secondary vac nozzle's as part of his TB's (mine as well). So it's a plug and play setup without having to disconnect anything... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Aspro, thanks man. I appreciate the help.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

The lines could be cm or inches doesn't matter, i guess all i am trying to do is get the water levels to line up.
Think i am dieefinatley going to use water with some food dye.
I few questions on my manometer idea.
1. How tall do you think the manometer should be ?
2. will i need to plug the resevoir tube ?



_Modified by aspro at 2:20 PM 6-25-2005_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

aspro,
Here is an inexpensive unit that's like the one your designing. 
http://www.moto-xtreme.com/sho...X0R89
A write up on how it is used and some pics for you (with a motorcycle but all the same).
http://www.fjr1300.info/howto/efi-sync.html
Not sure it really matters what the measurements are but one could calibrate the system to read the actual vac in inches like Dave was describing. Useful in comparing to other setups (itb/carbs).


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Unless I'm missing something, I can't see those (Aspro's) manometers working, at least not if they are filled with water and if they are connected to manifold vacuum. The reason being that an engine can pull as much as 28 inHg of vacuum and water is some 13.5 times less density than means the manomters would need to be over 30 feet tall or you risk them having all the water sucked out by the engine.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Well
Used the manometer design today , *minus the resevoir tube* as yes it would have to be over 30 feet.
so now i just have 4 tubes conected together at the botom.
I used REDEX instead of water as it is a bit thicker and red so easy to see.
When i started the car all the redex was sucked into runner 4 as it was pulling so much more vacuum than all the other runners.
So after refilling with rEDEX a opening throttle 4 abit i started again. AND IT WORKS








I spent the next 20 mins balancing out the idle and now all the tubes are within 20 mm of each other...
TOTAL COST £ 4.40


_Modified by aspro at 5:47 PM 6-25-2005_


----------



## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: (aspro)*

thats good to hear! very inspiring. What would happen if I temporarily disconnected my vac lines to my MAP in order to plug one of these synchrometers in?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (jib.ninja)*

It probably wouldnt idle.. Get yourself 4 T-Fittings.. and even if it did idle it wouldnt idle at a steady rpm or where you necessairly wanted it to.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (jib.ninja)*

Yes you realy need completely seperate ports to do this. So you can run a map line to your ecu and connector the manometer at the same time.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

BTW,
The car now idles as low as 800 rpm with out hiccups.
I will take a picture of the manometer tonight.


----------



## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: (aspro)*

wow, good to hear. I was planning on using the old injector holes for brake booster vacuum. T'ing lines out of those. I suppose I could connect the meter to those...
thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (jib.ninja)*

Bump to see how aspro's making out


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*

Hi Fast
Sorry i havn't posted. i have been flat out at work.
And i have a major tach drop issue that i can't figure out ????


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Here is the home made manometer


----------



## jib.ninja (Oct 27, 2003)

*Re: (aspro)*

wow,
that thing is huge







are they linked togeather at the bottom? did you end up running a fifth tube as a resevoir? 
good to hear it smoothed out your idle http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (jib.ninja)*

it hhas to be that huge unless you can get hold of mercury, and yes they are all connected together at the bottom.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Fast929)*

Hey FAST929 how is it comming along, I think you should add your'e progress to this post, so we can build a deffinative TB'd 16v thread.








I have found out what the spark drop issue was. As useual it was somthing completely different, it turned out to be my injectors peaking out. I only noticed it after analysing a data log and notice the Duty cycle was at 94%.
I will have to put my bigger injectors in


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Fast929)*

Just been out in the rain and scared myself silly


----------



## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_Hi all
Well since changing to Alpha N the fueling has been much better, but i can't seem to get a spark map that is TPS / RPM based.
I know i should be at around 32 ADV when cruising above 3000 rpm.
Does anyone have a spark map like this, or an example of how one should look when using Alpha N ??

Is it possible to base the fuel map off of TPS and the ignition map off the MAP sensor at the same time?
Also, what size cam and TB size are you running. The larger the cam/overlap and the larger the TB's, the quicker it will reach atmo.
Have you checked for any vacuum leaks?
Wicked setup by the way! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Is MAP really that much more accurate? I think you could probably get really close results as long as you have a wideband...right?


_Modified by dohc at 2:05 PM 7-25-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (dohc)*

Hi dohc
Yes you can base the fuel map of TPS and RPM - known as Alpha-N
The TB's i am running are 43 mm at the narrowest part and the cams are piper fast road cams - not sure on duration.


----------



## 16V-Sauger (Aug 9, 2005)

Does anyone have the original knock sensor in use? or how do you prevent your engines from detonations?
Daniel


----------



## MidnightGLI (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (16V-Sauger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16V-Sauger* »_Does anyone have the original knock sensor in use? or how do you prevent your engines from detonations?
Daniel

1) not that i know of
2) you have to tune it right http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

you can use the original knock sensors wired up to a set of headphones and listen for knocking. which leads to funny looks of people.



_Modified by aspro at 10:43 PM 8-9-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Just a general note to anyone considering soldering wires to their plug pins for things like temp sendors, injectors etc.
DONT DO IT !
I have had a **** load of problems latley all down to the wire strands fracturing. Now i know that you are all going to acuse me of bad soldering, but that simply isn't the case.
I guess i have found the reason why all manufacturers crimp there pins onto wires.


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_you can use the original knock sensors wired up to a set of headphones and listen for knocking. which leads to funny looks of people.

especially when you start nodding your head to the beat








I take it no-one has tried the knock support in MS'n'S-Extra yet then? It's on my list of things to do, but there's a whole load of other things higher up the list, so it's not looking to be anytime soon.


----------



## 16V-Sauger (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: (MidnightGLI)*

Isn`t it right that you waste to much power in don`t using a knock sensor? because you can´t get that close to the correct ignition point such as the original ecu can go?!
@aspro
do you have further information of that "knock sensor listening system"? 
in germany there aren`t much vw`s which drive with the MS. I bought my MS from a guy who has just put his MS into his mk3 gti. but he is driving with only 8 degres advance (ignition). so i think he is wasting very much power?!








does anyone have further information on a system that we call "Ionenstrommessung"? it is used in newer cars such as the actual BMW M5/M6


----------



## martyn_16v (Jul 16, 2004)

*Re: (16V-Sauger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16V-Sauger* »_Isn`t it right that you waste to much power in don`t using a knock sensor? because you can´t get that close to the correct ignition point such as the original ecu can go?!

Not at all. If you tune your spark advance correctly you can get just as close as a knock-sensing setup, sometimes better depending on how conservative the original KS setup is. In an ideal world the knock sensor would be redundant as your nicely tuned spark map would never cause knock. Where the sensor saves you is when you get a dodgy batch of fuel, or something isn't quite right in the engine causing knock to occur at less advance. Having the KS retard your timing can save your engine, but at the cost of reducing power while it is retarding.


----------



## 16V-Sauger (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: (martyn_16v)*

so at the moment my only possibility is to build such a "knock sensor listening system" und try to find the perfect ignition point








@all
a few weeks ago i asked in a german forum if it is possible to have 2 different maps for ignition and fuel. 
at that point i aksed myself if it is possible to run the first maps with less fuel and late ignition timings and maximum rev of about 5500. and the second maps with much







fuel, very agressive ignition timings and a maximum rev at about 8500. 
so do you think it will work? is it possbile to reduce the fuel in case of more moderate ignition timings?
best regards from germany


----------



## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (16V-Sauger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16V-Sauger* »_so at the moment my only possibility is to build such a "knock sensor listening system" und try to find the perfect ignition point








@all
a few weeks ago i asked in a german forum if it is possible to have 2 different maps for ignition and fuel. 
at that point i aksed myself if it is possible to run the first maps with less fuel and late ignition timings and maximum rev of about 5500. and the second maps with much







fuel, very agressive ignition timings and a maximum rev at about 8500. 
so do you think it will work? is it possbile to reduce the fuel in case of more moderate ignition timings?
best regards from germany

"The perfect ignition point" isn't necessarly at the point where knock occurs. Sometimes (depending on too many factors to list) adding ign. advance to the point just before the onset of knock will make less power then if you were to retard the ignition a little.
The only way to find the perfect ignition curve is to similate every load and engine speed possible on a dyno. But if you mean perfect for WOT only, then just dyno tune for WOT. Some motors will detonate before the optimal advance is reach, some will have their optimal advance well before the detonation threshold, you just have to experiment with a dyno to find out.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (dohc)*

I have been asked by quite a few people on how to position the EDIS trigger wheel in releation to the engine absolute TDC. So i programmed a Flash tool to make it easier to understand which i will post later when i find it


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Here is my program for working out how to position your trigger wheel
http://www.bubblemedia.co.uk/u....html


----------



## broccom (Sep 10, 2002)

*Can I use motorcycle injectors ???*

I am trying to adapt a suzuki GSXR750 TB and was wondering if the suzuki injectors could be used in their original location. I thinks they are 240cc/min.
This way I could avoid buying a fuel rail and VW injectors.
Is this a problem?


----------



## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (broccom)*

If i recall there is no return line on the suzuki fuel rail.. they use a special pump controller to control the fuel pressure.


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (CdnDub)*

you will have to bodge a new rail, i also don't think the injectors have enough flow.


----------



## Duff Man (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (aspro)*

for those inquiring in the beginning about doing a setup...i've gotten mine pretty much done w/ no welding so far...but i'm going to have a welded vacuum plenum to pull vacuum for my booster and help smooth out the map signal on my MSnS system when i get it up and running, it will pull vacuum right out of the currently plugged up ports that held the suzuki injectors. 4 brass nipples will be threaded into them and run 4 seperate hoses (as big as i can possibly get them for the thread size i'll have) running to a 1" dia. aluminum tube w/ my brake booster connected to the end.
i'm still figuring out my air box/filter setup...i had 4 K&N filters sitting at work, i thought about making a box to "bathe" them in air that will pull it/shove it in from the front of the car...but i really like that ITG setup. just harder to get the ram air system setup on it.
anyways, on to the pictures of my own setup.








all parts not originally equipped on the ITB's from suzuki were purchased either at BBM or Lowes Hardware Center.
my throttle linkage modification (took about 15 mins, start to finish)
















the 16v BBM fuel rail, unmodified w/ my DIY brackets. i had to drill out and tap (i helicoiled as that is what i had) the itb's for those little bolts, the flat head screws are the same thread as the holes in the rail.
























my freshly lowered radiator to allow for a custom box to shovel air from the front of the grill to the itbs somehow ...








the throttle cable after i modified it to look and function a little better...it's a scirocco 16v cable. the cable stop is the factory 16v unit off of the manifold...it is ground down and bent to the correct angle, then bolted to the 16v dizzy block off bolt hole (shares the bolt w/ the hold down clamp on the engine)
















that's it.
the spacers i used inbetween the bodies were acquired at Lowes hardware center, as well as the all thread to hold them together and the nylock nuts used; and the flat blade machine screws for the fuel rail brackets. brackets were made from just plain old sheet metal and cut w/ tin snips and finished on a grinder. fuel rail is the standard 16v BBM unit (unmodified), injector cups from BBM, those are standard bosch style injectors (those are actually accel's, but i'll be using bosch, those were there for fitment purposes only). my actual manifold is just the factory unit cut and ground a slight bit on the drivers side for the silicone to slide on nicely. the silicone i got at work (BBM), it was laying on the shelf, but i got a long tube of it....i'm sure you can find it somewhere, rubber hose would work as well.
i need to tear the bodies apart again to finish them (paint and coatings), clean up the manifold (i'm going to bring the outlets to a knife edge so it's a smoother transition from round to oval), i need to clean up the needle nose marks on my throttle linkage cam on the end...then fab up either a ram air intake for the 4 K&N's at work, or figure out how to stuff that same ITG setup in my little area up above the radiator.
word.
your setup looks really nice. i kinda wish you hadn't gone w/ a trigger wheel setup so i could ask you about your MSnS wiring when i go to get mine done (soon)...but oh well.










_Modified by Duff Man at 3:47 AM 10-25-2005_


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (Duff Man)*

Looking good Duffman


----------



## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (aspro)*

I know it has been a while but here are my ALPHA-N maps for the 16v running GSXR throttlebodies with EDIS.
*Advance table*
http://dev1.bubblemedia.co.uk/...9.vex
*Fuel table*
http://dev1.bubblemedia.co.uk/...9.vex

*MSQ if required*
http://dev1.bubblemedia.co.uk/...9.msq


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## mr.brown (Oct 26, 2003)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (aspro)*

@ Aspro
Thanks for your tables, that is extremely useful info. but I have a couple of Qs
Your advance table shows values for up to 207 Kpa MAP - are you actually seeing anywhere near this figure?
I've got a 6A on DTH throttle bodies and have been told that the max to expect is just over 100 Kpa.


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## Duff Man (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (mr.brown)*

i'm pretty sure 100kpa or so is atmospheric...at least for near sea level applications....
that's what i'll be basing my maps off of someday (hopefully soon)


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: Can I use motorcycle injectors ??? (mr.brown)*

THE MAPS ARE ALPHA - N NOT SPEED DENSITY.
Alpha N uses the TPS to detmine load. 
It is a simpler way to map the TB's. Have a look at the MAP versus TPS graphs earlier in the thread.


_Modified by aspro at 12:49 AM 11-20-2005_


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## Mickey Marrows (Sep 24, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Hello, nice thread, good info.








One thing though, and you may already have sorted this, but I used to work for a VW tuner and we had a couple of sets of 16v cams from Piper where the timing marks where wrong on the inlet cam. The car would run ok and I only noticed because one car used to lean out really really badly so I went back to basics and set up the cam timing with a dial guage and adjustable pulley's.
If you haven't done so I'd highly recommend checking your cam timing, and I mean the actual cam lobes not the timing marks


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Mickey Marrows)*

Hi Mikey
Thanks for your reply, i have a suspision that the cams are miss timed.
what other cams are a good option, instead of piper


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## mr.brown (Oct 26, 2003)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aspro* »_
what other cams are a good option, instead of piper

A few cam related threads here - http://www.clubgti.com/forum/f...&PN=1
GVK, who has posted earlier in the thread, has some maps on his website realting to his Schricks.
Badger5 are doing CAT cams - not cheap at £420+VAT a set - but are supposed to be quality (I think this price is for billet cams) - http://www.catcams.be/index.htm
Newman cams (they're basically Schrick copies but a lot cheaper) - around £364 for the set inc. delivery. They manufacture from blanks to order but can deliver in a week or so.
http://www.newman-cams.com/catalogue.html 




_Modified by mr.brown at 12:37 PM 11-23-2005_


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## Mickey Marrows (Sep 24, 2001)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (mr.brown)*

Pipers are fine once they're timed right. If you do decide to throw them out I'm with Mr Brown, Newmans are excellent and the customer service is unsurpased.


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## iwanaturbo (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (Mickey Marrows)*

We use Newman cams here and rate them very highly. They can do custom grinds aswell. I will be using they're cams in my project 16v with GSXR ITB.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (iwanaturbo)*

spoke to both dave and ken newman today, about maybe getting some of there cams.


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The start of a Audi 16v TB conversion (aspro)*

Well here are the final pictures of the car and the last thing i will be doing which is a nice tubular exhaust manifold.


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## H8SV8S (Jan 22, 2004)

AWESOME work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Get some close-ups too, though


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (H8SV8S)*

The Manifold is actually an original OEM 5 runner from an early audi 90 I5 20V.
I have cut the runner from cylinder 1 off, and will weld up the hole, and obviously it needed a new exhaust flange which in turn will be weled in place.
Once it is complete i will post more pictures.
For those freaking and wondering why Audi actually had this work of art as standard on there early NA 20's. We can only assume it was for holomogation purposes.

_Modified by aspro at 10:06 PM 8-24-2006_


_Modified by aspro at 10:06 PM 8-24-2006_


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

final pictures


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## aspro (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: (aspro)*

Hi all
For anyone in the UK, the car will be on show at the NEC in birmingham at the classic car motorshow from the 27 28 and 29th of October.
I will be mainly on the Audi Owners club stand so if anyone wants to talk MegaSquirt or throttle bodys, then pop along


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