# My car died while driving now wont start..



## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Ok So like i stated above my wife was driving the car and it just shut off instantly. No bucking or hesitations like it was running out of fuel. The car is a 97 golf 2.0 automatic. So today i took the day off of work to check out the car and see if i could fix it. So these are the things i have checked, Spark on all 4 wires, plugs, cap and rotor were recently done, fuel rail has pressure,fuel pump is pumping, injectors are spraying, all cylinders have compression, timing is on, changed the crank sensor and no difference, i sprayed starter fluid and not even a pop or stutter to start. I plugged in the obdII comp and the codes i got are the ones the car has had for a few months like 02 sensor and emission control system and a few others that were caused from over cranking and battery voltage being low. Cleared all the codes and still made no difference. Car just turns over and no difference. So now im really frustrated and cant seem to find the solution to this problem. And the worst part is ive burned the starter and need to get a new one. So any info on wut would be causing this problem is appreciated???


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## dkfackler (Feb 8, 2010)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> O...i sprayed starter fluid and not even a pop or stutter to start.


Sounds like no spark. See if you get a snappy bluish-white spark that will jump ~10mm to a good ground. No spark? Check for battery voltage at coil input. 

I suspect the coil.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Well it does have spark on all 4 wires. I was just looking on my list of the codes and one did come up for the hall sender. P0341 camshaft position sensor. Can this go bad but still give spark on all 4 wires?? I thought this was one of those things that works or doesnt work atleast from my previous experiences.


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

Car will still run with a cam sensor code.

How are you testing for spark? As you say there is spark from the wires... do you get spark at the plug with one pulled like dkfackler suggested?


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

You know the old traditional way..Screw driver in the end of the wire and place it near a grounding point and see if the spark arches over. Didnt try it when the plugs were out, will do that tomorrow and also test the coil. If the coil is bad wouldnt there be no spark at the wires??? Ive got the oem coil from my 86 gti, will that work on this 97 if its the problem just to get it running?? Any other suggestions??


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Ok got a new starter and a different dizzy and changed them out and still no difference just turns over and no start. Did notice one thing tho when i let go of the ignition switch the car does a small stutter kinda like when ur car is out of timing and keeps running even when u turn it off.Only does it when u stop the motor from cranking for like 1/2 a sec. Could my problem be a bad ignition switch? How can i check this or override it?


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Ok spark plugs & coil have spark looks like a bright bluish/red spark... Also coil has 14+V when the ignition is on and while cranking it drops slightly into the 13V range. Seems like its working fine to me...Checked fuel pump relay seems to be working fine can feel the normal clicks when opening and closing the ignition, jumped it just to make sure and still no start. Fuel does come out of the lines when cranking and checked pressure with gauge and its fine....Still stumped on this one...


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## VDubGTi08 (Jan 31, 2008)

Have you checked the mechanical timing of the engine? You need fuel,spark,air and compression for an engine to start. So somethings missing. You have spark, sounds like you have fuel, check compression and go from there.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

VDubGTi08 said:


> Have you checked the mechanical timing of the engine? You need fuel,spark,air and compression for an engine to start. So somethings missing. You have spark, sounds like you have fuel, check compression and go from there.


Checked the timing twice and its on...and in my first post i stated compression was fine it has 180 across the 4...Fuel pressure while cranking is 45 psi. I pulled the plugs out and cleaned them and let the cylinders dry out. When i put them back and cranked the motor it popped a few times then stopped and just cranked over after that. Seems like its flooding....Injectors are pulsing like they should be and not staying on continuously. Maybe the plugs are not good? They have less than 1000 miles on them...:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## dkfackler (Feb 8, 2010)

This might be a worn out ignition switch. It may spark while cranking but not in the 'run' position.

A shot in the dark:

You might try running a redundant ground wire from a clean bolt on the cylinder head to the negative battery post(ultimate ground). I had a 16V Scirocco that was a proper #@$%@#$ to start until the addition of that wire. Removing the new ground made it hard to start again. 

Use a 10-gauge wire or so-- something fairly heavy with good terminals.


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## mars-red (Mar 2, 2004)

Are you still getting that cam position sensor code thrown? If so, check the wiring between the hall sending unit connector on the distributor, and your ECU. Also, post up here what the exact code is (iirc, there is one for implausible signal and another for open circuit or missing signal - there may even be one for short to ground.)

Someone stated earlier that the car will still run with the cam position sensor code thrown - that's not necessarily true, though. If the code is for "implausible signal" then it may run, it may not - depends on what the signal actually is. If the code is for open circuit or short to ground, it won't run. My OBD-II 2.0 Golf will not run with the hall sensor disconnected (which is a cam position sensor open circuit).

I think it's worth pursuing this cam position sensor issue, unless we can 100% eliminate it as a cause.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

I guess i could try the ground wire cuz its a free thing to test also will look into a new switch cuz they r cheap..No more codes are popping up plus i changed the dizzy with one that i know was working so if it was the hall sender it has a good one now. The code that it threw was P0341 but it has not come up again since trying to start.


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## mars-red (Mar 2, 2004)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> I guess i could try the ground wire cuz its a free thing to test also will look into a new switch cuz they r cheap..No more codes are popping up plus i changed the dizzy with one that i know was working so if it was the hall sender it has a good one now. The code that it threw was P0341 but it has not come up again since trying to start.


You need to check more than just the ground - you need to check that the sensor is getting voltage through the connector, and you need to check that the signal wire has continuity from the hall sensor connector back to the ECU connector. As with any fault code for a sensor, it does not necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with the sensor itself - if there is a bad or missing signal coming to the ECU, the ECU has no way to tell whether it is due to a wiring problem or a faulty sensor. Always a good idea to check the wiring first, as it's a lot cheaper to do that than replace a sensor and maybe still have the problem afterward.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

mars-red said:


> You need to check more than just the ground - you need to check that the sensor is getting voltage through the connector, and you need to check that the signal wire has continuity from the hall sensor connector back to the ECU connector. As with any fault code for a sensor, it does not necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with the sensor itself - if there is a bad or missing signal coming to the ECU, the ECU has no way to tell whether it is due to a wiring problem or a faulty sensor.



If there was no voltage to the sensor wouldnt there be no spark at all?? Or would there be spark but the ecu would not let the car run?? well i ruled out the sensor cuz it has one that i know was working. So that leaves wiring to and from ecu to sensor. Its not throwing the code anymore so i dont know if thats the problem or not. Could that code pop up from excessive cranking and the battery dieing. Which one is the signal wire and do u happen to know which wire it is on the ecu plug?


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## JoggerNot (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm on the fuel subject. I would think even with a spark, timed or not, you would get some pops unless it was super rich. You say the injectors are pulsing and not stuck open but can you tell the proper duration for them being open while trying to start the car ?

Is to much fuel ruled out ?


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## Jetazg03 (Jun 23, 2009)

Timing belt.
check the timing belt.
compression is at what? 45psi?
check the timing belt.


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## JoggerNot (Nov 6, 2009)

Fuel pressure is at 45.

Said several times he checked the timing. I assume that means the marks on the pulleys for the TB.


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## 1988Audi80NA (Nov 27, 2009)

I only have one thing to suggest, My wife seems to think her keychain can hold anything and everything. Not sure if thats the same for the rest of you but if her keychain is heavy 1/4LB or more go ahead and replace that ignition switch.

If not the only other things I can think of are restricted air flow to the TB or plugs are so fuel soaked they cant function.

Just my two cents worth.


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## cwcabrio (Dec 16, 2009)

Have you checked all the fuses?


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

There is nothing that will ruin a VW ignition switch faster that a keychain loaded with keys and fobs and whatever. My basic rule is no more than two keys -- one for the car and one for the house. Even a couple of keys with transponders can get heavy. FR


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

P0341 is almost always a timing issue...usually ignition timing with the rotor being way out. I'd triple check it cause it's probably off. Also make sure the bolt for the dizzy is tight. Could also be the hall sender in the dizzy, but since you already tried another dizzy, I'd rule that out and say it's most likely just the ignition timing. Use a timing light if you have to.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Jetazg03 said:


> Timing belt.
> check the timing belt.
> compression is at what? 45psi?
> check the timing belt.





TheMajic86GTI said:


> Checked the timing twice and its on...and in my first post i stated compression was fine it has 180 across the 4...


I hate when ppl dont read the whole thread!!!:banghead:


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

1988Audi80NA said:


> I only have one thing to suggest, My wife seems to think her keychain can hold anything and everything. Not sure if thats the same for the rest of you but if her keychain is heavy 1/4LB or more go ahead and replace that ignition switch.
> 
> If not the only other things I can think of are restricted air flow to the TB or plugs are so fuel soaked they cant function.
> 
> Just my two cents worth.


Thanx Audi and u too FR... Was out of town and just got in. Gona change out the plugs first and see wut happens cuz i think Audi might be right. Then ill change the ignition switch. Can the dizzy have spark while cranking if the switch is bad??


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

you can jump the starter to bypass the ignition switch if you wanted, but i think if you got spark, it's probably not the problem. just take a jumper wire from the single pin connection on the starter and touch it to the positive battery connection on starter. make sure your car is in neutral or park.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

zero. said:


> you can jump the starter to bypass the ignition switch if you wanted, but i think if you got spark, it's probably not the problem. just take a jumper wire from the single pin connection on the starter and touch it to the positive battery connection on starter. make sure your car is in neutral or park.


Thanx Zero but the ignition turns the starter fine. Ive actually layed out all 4 plugs connected to the wires on top of the intake while cranking and they all got spark. Thing is while cranking there is no pop, but as soon as let go of the key and stop the cranking it does a slight pop while leaving the key in the on position...really weird..


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## x3 FaLLiNg StArS (Mar 27, 2008)

did you try the MAF sensor .. I had the same thing happen to me in my 99 vr .. it would start until I unplugged the sensor then I would run .. it was bogged down but it was still drivable until the sensor was replaced


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

x3 FaLLiNg StArS said:


> did you try the MAF sensor .. I had the same thing happen to me in my 99 vr .. it would start until I unplugged the sensor then I would run .. it was bogged down but it was still drivable until the sensor was replaced


Thanx but yeah i tried that and nothing....


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

OK so todays update: Got new plugs and put them in and the car started to pop a little and i got it started. Felt like it was running on 2-3 cylinders and if i accelerated it would bog down and backfire. So i let it idle and it would stay on. 2 things came 2 mind timing or 2 much fuel. So i loosened the dizzy to play with it and the car shut off. I tried to restart it and it would not run. It would just turn over like all the times before. Plugged the comp in and it had the P0341 code again. So the rest of the afternoon i played with the timing belt to see if it was off a tooth or right on. So heres the markings im going by

Camshaft is just like in this pic.









Flywheel mark is pic B cuz this car is an automatic which is the O aligned on the bottom of the square whole.









and rotor pointing to #1 on the dizzy just like this one.









Did all this countless times today and nothing with the new plugs. So do u think it can be to much fuel and wut can i check for this??:banghead::banghead::screwy:


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

i can't see all the pics now, but still sounds like ignition timing to me. when you installed the dizzy, was everything else at TDC? if not, i think the dizzy itself could be off, so even if the rotor were pointing to cylinder 1, it could still be timed incorrectly. the dot on the rotor should be lined up with the slot mark on the base of the dizzy and both should point to cylinder 1 with everything else at TDC. 

i was throwing the same p0341 code and had same rough running/backfiring symptoms which lead to a no start issue when a guy who helped me with a rebuild forgot to tighten the dizzy bolt and the dizzy went out of time from vibrating.

if everything's lined up, i don't know. that code is only thrown when ignition timing is off or if the hall sender in the dizzy is bad. you could line up everything to TDC, remove the dizzy, position the dizzy so the slot on it lines up close to cylinder 1 and rotate the rotor to it (dot lined up with slot) and then reinstall making sure none of the timing marks move.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Ok yesterday had a chance to work on it. Started cranking and nothing. I pulled the cam,intermediate and crank sprockets off to check the keys on them and they were all fine. Thought maybe one of them was bad. I put it back on timing and nothing. So i flipped the dizzy 180 and i started getting poping but only after like 5 min of straight cranking. So i pulled the fuel relay out so it would stop dumping fuel and continued cranking. Got more popping like the car wanted to start and it ran for like 3 secs so i put the relay back in and then nothing again popping went away. Continued cranking with relay in but this time pumping on the accelerator and the car started briefly again as soon as i try to give it gas it dies. This thing is freaking confusing me. About to put this gremlin up for sale really really cheap..:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Got the new ignition switch today. Plugged it in and still no start. Just endless cranking and some random popping while ignition is engaged and when u let go of it. This gremlin is testing my patience. 18 yrs of VW experience and never had anything like this before...Computer has been code free for the past 2 days......Anybody in Miami with an mk3 2.0 willing to let me barrow a working ECU to test that on my car???

SO HERES THE LIST

car is in timing
changed dizzy 
coil has great spark
car has spark at all 4 plugs
4 new plugs
tried different cap and rotor
compression between 175-180 on all 4 cylinders
fuel pump working
fuel pressure 45 psi
all 4 injectors spraying and in sync with dizzy
new ignition switch 

Anyone else care to offer any other ideas???? Only thing i can think of is ECU but it seems to be working fine and communicating with my obd2 comp..


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

ecu is probably not it if you can communicate fine and check engine light works, but worth a shot. you changed the crank sensor too right? 

thing that makes me think it's still the ignition timing (not only the code) is that you said you got it running, but when you loosened and adjusted the dizzy it shut off and then wouldn't start again. just doing what you did while the car was running could require you to re-phase the dizzy. seriously use a timing light if you have to. also double check your firing order. you could just have the wires switched up on the cap.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

zero. said:


> ecu is probably not it if you can communicate fine and check engine light works, but worth a shot. you changed the crank sensor too right?


Yea thats wut i thought and YES i did change the crank sensor...



zero. said:


> just doing what you did while the car was running could require you to re-phase the dizzy.


Wut do u mean by rephase the dizzy?



zero. said:


> seriously use a timing light if you have to. also double check your firing order. you could just have the wires switched up on the cap.


Car wont start for me to use a timing light. Do it while cranking the starter??? And the wires are in right order 1342


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

yes, you can set it while cranking. Do that, you've gone thru everything I can think of. Resetting the timing would be a good place to start. Other than finding a car or an other ECU to test with.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> yes, you can set it while cranking. Do that, you've gone thru everything I can think of. Resetting the timing would be a good place to start. Other than finding a car or an other ECU to test with.


Thanx for taking a look PS.....


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## zero. (Aug 14, 2001)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> Wut do u mean by rephase the dizzy?


The dizzy needs to be installed at TDC. When you installed the new one, all of the timing marks should have been at TDC and you should have installed the dizzy with the mark at cylinder 1. It will usually move the intermediate shaft timing when you install, so you need to compensate for it. To re-phase you have to loosen the dizzy clamp bolt and physically turn the dizzy until everything is at TDC. You may or may not be able to turn the dizzy...some of them have pins and you'd have to remove the dizzy and reinstall at TDC. If you don't install the dizzy correctly, then the correct position for the rotor can be anywhere and not at cylinder 1. Technically you could just keep making adjustments to the rotor until it starts, but it's easier to use the correct timing marks.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

Obviously you are missing something, because if everything was working like you say it is, then the engine would run.

Why did you replace the starter and the distributor? When you say you replaced the parts, did you install all new parts, or parts you got out of your junkbox, or parts you took/borrowed off a friend's running engine?

Your problem is timing related, and is faulty ignition or camshaft timing, defective coil, defective ECU or defective crankshaft sensor. Concentrate on those parts.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

germancarnut51 said:


> Obviously you are missing something, because if everything was working like you say it is, then the engine would run.
> 
> Why did you replace the starter and the distributor? When you say you replaced the parts, did you install all new parts, or parts you got out of your junkbox, or parts you took/borrowed off a friend's running engine?
> 
> Your problem is timing related, and is faulty ignition or camshaft timing, defective coil, defective ECU or defective crankshaft sensor. Concentrate on those parts.



The starter was on its way out and died trying to crank it so many times, replaced with a junkyard one.The ignition switch i bought was new it was just a thought as the ignition on the car now is finiky. The dizzy and crank sensor was from a running car. Only thing i havent changed is the coil, so even tho it has spark im going to change it with a new one just in case its weak.

Zero as far as timing goes and installing dizzy's ive done so many over the years plus twice before on this car that im certain its dead on. I havent even looked at a manual in over 10yrs..:laugh::thumbup:...Problem has to be coil or wiring im thinking....Im gona go through all the grounds remove and clean them just to double check and maybe add an extra one from the battery to the head like suggested above. 

Ill post up a little later the results...wish me luck


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> SO HERES THE LIST
> 
> car is in timing
> changed dizzy
> ...


More things to add

Changed the crank sensor with a known working one
Cleaned up all the grounds and replaced the one to the coil(was a little frayed)
Checked timing with timing light and its on
Changed FPR with a known working one

*STILL STUMPED :banghead::banghead:*


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

It looks to me like the distributor and rotor are not installed correctly in the photos. The reason is locating pins on each side of the distributor hold down bolt prevent the distributor from being installed in any position other than pointing at about 1/2 to 3/4 of 1 o'clock when standing in front of the car looking into the hood, and using the rotor pointing directly at the engine as being 12 o'clock. 

In your photo, looks like the rotor is point at just short of 12 o'clock which is incorrect.

What model year car did the flywheel sensor and distributor come out of? I can tell you for a fact (since I've tried it) that although parts books show the same part number for rebuilt distributors are being compatible with both OBDI and OBDII engines, OBDII distributors ARE NOT COMPATIBLE WITH OBDI engines. This would say to me that OBDII engines are not compatible with OBDI distributors.

Also, pulling the locating pins from a distributor is not acceptable. It actually makes it harder to install the distributor correctly. Removing the pins does allow you to change the timing, since you will get a CEL, and the ECU sets the ignition timing anyway, not the distributor.

The distributor is supposed to be installed with the flywheel and camshaft at TDC, and the slot in the shaft at the bottom of the distributor aligned parallel the the engine block.

A defective distributor hall sensor will not prevent the engine from starting. Incorrectly installing the distributor will prevent the engine from starting and running.

The small backfiring, putting noise from the engine is a sign that the ignition timing is not correct. 

And not referring the Bentley Manual does not impress. How do you service components, repair or replace fasteners without referring to the manual for the correct tighening values (torque settings).. How do you service the electrical system or emissions system without referring to diagrams in the manual? 

Your car isn't running, maybe you should dig the manual out, and read it.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

germancarnut51 said:


> It looks to me like the distributor and rotor are not installed correctly in the photos. The reason is locating pins on each side of the distributor hold down bolt prevent the distributor from being installed in any position other than pointing at about 1/2 to 3/4 of 1 o'clock when standing in front of the car looking into the hood, and using the rotor pointing directly at the engine as being 12 o'clock.
> 
> In your photo, looks like the rotor is point at just short of 12 o'clock which is incorrect.
> 
> ...



First i never said that was my pic. If u read it, it says like this one....The dizzy and sensor both came from a 98 obdII jetta. I never said i dont refer to to the bentley ever. I just havent had to refer to it for putting on timing belts on my car per the conversation i was having with zero! As far as manuals go i think everyone should own them i have 4 different manuals for my cars and i hav reffered to them and had no success with my problem. Thats why im on here. But thanx for ur input...:thumbup:


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Last nights update. Got the car to start again by changing out the plugs again.It started to sputter and kept cranking till it was up to speed and stayed running by itself and idling. This time i let it warm up to temp. Had the car running for like 30-45min. If u accelerated fast it would bog down and misfire if u did it slow it would rev up fine. Took it for a drive and it was misfiring around 3000rpm and the misfires came up on the scanner P0300, P0302, P0304 and the usual P0130 for the o2 sensor that has not been working for like 6 months. No P0341 code anymore. So #2 and #4 are misfiring for some reason. So after all that i decided to put some fresh plugs in while the car was still warm. Changed out plugs then car would not start. Back to the random cranking again. Put the other plugs the car was running with and still no start again. Packed up everything and went to bed as it was 12 at night. Im leaning to fuel mixture or spark quality now....Im gona try and get it started again this morning and try to keep it running as long as i can to isolate the problem better..


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Todays results....

Tried to find the maf sensor reading on the live data feed but could not. Just more cranking and got it to almost start after unplugging the maf and keeping the gas pedal floored. Plugged it back in then did the same by keeping the pedal pressed it finally started after like 5 min of cranking. It idled for like 2-3 min and as soon as i touched the pedal again it shut off and would not restart. Checked the scanner and the codes P0102 Mass Air Flow (MAF) Circuit Low Input most likely from unplugging it as it has never came up before and i think the other was P1613 Which is the MIL Call-Up Circuit Open/Short To Positive but dont know wut this means....Is it possible for the MAF to go bad and not throw a code???

Both of those codes havent come up before only after i got the car running by unplugging the MAF..


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18021/P1613/005651 fixed


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> p1613


Link is not working.....


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18021/P1613/005651 fixed


 Thanx PS i think its the CEL light cuz ive never seen it come on for this car since ive owned it....lol 


Well im off to the junkyard today to exchange my starter and maybe pickup some other parts to see if this gremlin of a problem can be figured out....


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> Well im off to the junkyard today to exchange my starter and maybe pickup some other parts to see if this gremlin of a problem can be figured out....


 Exchanged the starter and also picked up a coil,MAF, and ECU... 

Installed starter and changed the coil.....and.........BAM.... the efing car started right up and ran perfect!!!!! Just wanted to say thanx for everyone who had some input on this one....Lesson learned is just cuz it has spark doesnt mean its working correctly.....:thumbup::beer: 

So now i guess ill have an extra working OBDII MAF($50 shipped) and ECU($40.00 shipped) for sale if anyone is interested...


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

That is one for the memory banks. Glad you got it running.:thumbup:


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