# The Age Old Question: Automatic VS. Manual



## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

A small conversation was had with a friend of mine on how the extra sixth gear will actually deter the 2.5L from its full potential and that you'll have more control over the car with the five-speed. In about a week from now I hope to have finalized plans with Volkswagen to order the new 2008 Rabbit S, and I am debating weather to have the manual or automatic transmission... please: your thoughts and/experiences!
Sidebar- does anyone have gear ratios by chance? Will the fifth gear cover up over the sixth in the auto?


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: The Age Old Question: Automatic VS. Manual (SLiMeX)*

The thing to remember is that it isn't another gear on top, but it's more or less another point in the middle (basically).
Drive an auto and drive a manual and make your own decision... it's really more a personal thing than anything else. The 6-speed auto makes it actually a viable option compared to a 5-speed manual... The advantage (from a technical standpoint / on paper) of the manual is not as great as it would be compared to, say, a 4-speed auto. So it's more or less going to come down to whether you want a stick or not, really. You still have "the advantage" with one, but it's not as big of one as it used to be.
Still, though... most people who buy automatics say they'd buy a stick if they knew how to drive it.
*edit:.. I forgot about the "I drive in traffic/commute" response... It hasn't bothered me in any of my manual transmission (my only) cars, though.


_Modified by ninety9gl at 2:34 AM 6-24-2007_


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## stangg172006 (Jul 21, 2006)

personally, i went with an auto because i got the car to commute to school which is a 15 mile drive in chicago rush hour traffic, didnt feel like sitting through two hours of shifting at low speeds everyda! now that the aftermarket is opening up for the rabbit, i severely regret it...


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

i'd would say for the mod friendly future of the cars, the manual might be the better choice. As far as driving impressions go, i really do like manual cars, however, i don't have many complaints about the tiptronic auto. Six gears to play around with, and upshifts/downshifts a push away, w/ no clutch to play with is kinda fun. 
On the highway also, i've heard much better things about the auto than the manual, as engine speed is drastically reduced at cruising speeds. think i was doing 90 under 3000 rpm on my test drive.


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## absoluteczech (Sep 13, 2006)

this is gonna be weird, but honestly i love driving stick but it gets annoying in traffic so the only reason i didnt get the automatic was because how ugly it inside the car. it for some reason looks really cheap and plasticy hehe


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## BuddyWh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: The Age Old Question: Automatic VS. Manual (SLiMeX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SLiMeX* »_A small conversation was had with a friend of mine on how the extra sixth gear will actually deter the 2.5L from its full potential and that you'll have more control over the car with the five-speed. In about a week from now I hope to have finalized plans with Volkswagen to order the new 2008 Rabbit S, and I am debating weather to have the manual or automatic transmission... please: your thoughts and/experiences!
Sidebar- does anyone have gear ratios by chance? Will the fifth gear cover up over the sixth in the auto? 

5 spd manual ratios: 
First Gear Ratio 1) 3.78 
Second Gear Ratio 1) 2.12 
Third Gear Ratio 1) 1.36 
Fourth Gear Rato 1) 1.03 
Fifth Gear Ratio 1) 0.84 
Final Drive Axle Ratio 1) 3.65 
Tiptronic ratios:
First Gear Ratio 1) 4.04 
Second Gear Ratio 1) 2.37 
Third Gear Ratio 1) 1.56 
Fourth Gear Rato 1) 1.16 
Fifth Gear Ratio 1) 0.85 
Sixth Gear Ratio 1) 0.67 
Final Drive Axle Ratio 1) 3.89
So the auto has a higher final ratio... good for hiway economy. I like driving the 5 speed, but this torquey 2.5l could really use a higher final gear like the 6 spd tiptronic's


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

Man, this is the reason why I am going in between. My new job requires a 2:1 ratio of stop-&-go commute. I want the manual, but the automatic would be so much easier on me and if I ever wanted to take it for a road trip, I would be at ease knowing that I'm getting decent gas milage.


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## tdotwes (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks for posting the ratios... makes me feel a little better about my tiptronic purchase


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## BuddyWh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: (SLiMeX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SLiMeX* »_Man, this is the reason why I am going in between. My new job requires a 2:1 ratio of stop-&-go commute. I want the manual, but the automatic would be so much easier on me and if I ever wanted to take it for a road trip, I would be at ease knowing that I'm getting decent gas milage.

The 5 speed is really easy to drive around town. The 2.5's broad torque band lets you skip-shift with ease and go slow with out downshifting. Really, even with manual it's a blast as a city car!
Even at 80 the engine's hardly blasting on the hiway, but it would be nice to have the higher ratio of the tip's 6th gear.


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## Gans (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: (BuddyWh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BuddyWh* »_The 5 speed is really easy to drive around town. The 2.5's broad torque band lets you skip-shift with ease and go slow with out downshifting. Really, even with manual it's a blast as a city car!
Even at 80 the engine's hardly blasting on the highway

Sounds great to me! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## digitaltim (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (SLiMeX)*

If I had a stop and go commute I would NOT want the manual.
1st gear is really short. I try to avoid using it as much as possible, but if you're stopped you have to. I rarely stall, but it does happen...seems to just catch me off guard once a month or so. Weird, cause I never stalled my other vehicles.
Its true that you can stay in 5th gear for low speeds....the torque just carries the car effortlessly.
Seriously, I wanted nothing, but manual. If I had a bumper to bumper commute I'd go automatic. 
Best way to decide is to drive them first.


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

What would everyone do if they had a stop-and-go commute, but besides that wanted to, in the future, do some modifications and also would enjoy the occasional autocross?


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (SLiMeX)*

If you're used to driving a manual, stop-and-go traffic isn't really any different.
Sometimes I get irritated at other drivers for going just slow enough that they aren't giving me a chance to get out of the gear I'm in (you know, when you feel like you're "stuck" having to be in that gear)... but that's when they aren't moving with/responding to traffic and are just simply going slower than they should or need to be.
Usually those are the people who think that by going THAT slowly that traffic will stop and go before they get far enough to have to stop their car. They're going slow enough to try and avoid actually coming to a stop.


_Modified by ninety9gl at 1:45 AM 6-25-2007_


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## blast7sho (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: The Age Old Question: Automatic VS. Manual (SLiMeX)*

I drove both the trip and the manual. I like both cars but I prefer to drive a manual. My drive is mostly city and if you like manually shifting then you won't care about rush hour traffic. My one complaint is the jerkiness of primarily the 1-2 shift. I think the engine insert mount will really help this as my previous Taurus SHO was plagued with this problem as well.


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## BuddyWh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: (digitaltim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *digitaltim* »_
...
1st gear is really short. I try to avoid using it as much as possible, but if you're stopped you have to. I rarely stall, but it does happen...seems to just catch me off guard once a month or so. Weird, cause I never stalled my other vehicles.
...


I've had that problem too, and it doesn't make sense. Engine's real torquey, first is indeed "short", why should I stall out on this car where I rarely if ever did on my previous ones?








I'm thinking it's the throttle lag...


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## whitehare (Dec 25, 2006)

*Re: (digitaltim)*

"1st gear is really short. I try to avoid using it as much as possible, but if you're stopped you have to. *I rarely stall, but it does happen...seems to just catch me off guard once a month or so*. Weird, cause I never stalled my other vehicles."
This used to happen to me on mine but since I installed the Autotech engine mount It is no longer a problem.










_Modified by whitehare at 2:05 PM 6-25-2007_


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## digitaltim (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (whitehare)*

I have the mount and it does shift smoother and faster. It does help. 
1st gear / take off stalls are the trouble.. I think I've stalled 3 or 4 times in the first 3k miles... Then you have to turn the key off and back on again....The last time it happened I was able to start while in the roll, but its still nerve racking.
Like Buddy said, the DBW lag makes it worse. It is why I want to get chipped.



_Modified by digitaltim at 12:04 PM 6-25-2007_


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## BuddyWh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: (whitehare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whitehare* »_
...
This used to happen to me on mine but since I installed the Autotech engine mount It is no longer a problem.








...

Is that the insert for the enginer mount? is it the metal one, or the rubber one?


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## VolksRacer2 (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: (BuddyWh)*

We have the Tip in our Jetta (my wife HAD to have an auto. this time







) and it's actually relatively fun to drive around on mountain roads, as long as you keep it in Sport mode.
I found that the TIP feature takes too long to respond to commands when you're in lower gears. By the time it gives you the up/down shift you requested it's already auto-shifted anyhow because it won't hold a gear past a certain RPM threshold. 
Drive mode requires almost flooring the throttle to downshift out of a corner, so you always have to drive it like you're racing or it dogs BAD!
In Sport I was able to drive "spiritedly" without having to drive like an a$$ just to have a little fun. Downshifted more readily, held gears fairly well and was just generally entertaining.
All of that said, I'd still opt for the 5-speed if it were MY car just because I've raced enough years that it doesn't feel natural to NOT use a clutch. 
All other things being equal...the 5-speed's faster too.


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## absoluteczech (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: (BuddyWh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BuddyWh* »_
Is that the insert for the enginer mount? is it the metal one, or the rubber one? 

neuspeed & ecs make rubber/polyuerthine ones or whatever its made of, and autotech makes a metal one


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

Man, why am I still on the fence about this decision?


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*

Then you'd really hate me 99gl because if the light up ahead is red and theres no cars behind me or they're far behind me I'll let the car coast a good distance before I get anywhere near the light so that when it switches to green and the traffic that had been waiting at the light gets going, I can just get back on the throttle and completely avoid coming to a full stop and then accelerating all the way back up to speed.
VolksRacer2, you made me burst out laughing with your comment. In Tiptronic mode, downshifts are slow and it can get annoying. In a manual you can just skip a gear, say going from 4th to 2nd instead of 4-3-2. By the time I hit the brakes to get the nose down, turn, and then hit the gas, the transmission hasn't finished downshifting and it kind of bogs down on exit. And then when it finally gets down to the gear I requested, I've already started picking up speed and when that gear engages FINALLY the engine is screaming and I immediately have to bump the stick to get it to shift back up. So you either have to only request one downshift instead of two and try to carry a little more speed into the turn to keep the revs up, or try downshifting really early and have your engine scream going up to the turn. It sucks. But at least the 6spd Tip is alot smoother than the old 5spd Tip. The clutch interruption when switching gears was very abrupt.


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (_V-Dubber_)*

Well, that's not really a big deal... even myself, I'd rather coast up to a light and go to 2nd...
But not keeping up with traffic and the cars in front of you is another story...


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*

You know it really is too bad that VW doesn't offer the DSG with the 2.5. I guess we'll just have to wait it out until 2011-2012 when the MkVI Volkswagens come out


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## Codename-dnb (Jun 18, 2007)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_If you're used to driving a manual, stop-and-go traffic isn't really any different.
Sometimes I get irritated at other drivers for going just slow enough that they aren't giving me a chance to get out of the gear I'm in (you know, when you feel like you're "stuck" having to be in that gear)... but that's when they aren't moving with/responding to traffic and are just simply going slower than they should or need to be.
Usually those are the people who think that by going THAT slowly that traffic will stop and go before they get far enough to have to stop their car. They're going slow enough to try and avoid actually coming to a stop.

_Modified by ninety9gl at 1:45 AM 6-25-2007_

yeah pretty much. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## metromaniac (May 22, 2007)

*Re: (SLiMeX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SLiMeX* »_Man, why am I still on the fence about this decision?

I have almost 40 years experience, almost exclusively with manual transmissions. When I first test drove a 2.5 Jetta (and I had the car for 3 days), I must have killed the engine at lights 5 times, and I'm talking about flat roads. It was embarassing! I drove the Tiptronic and fell in love with the car. I can't explain it; it just sems like the 2.5 and the Tiptronic are made for each other.
I guess my point is, try them both. If you can convince your sales person to let you take one of each home overnight, do it. It's the only way you're going to buy either car without remorse.


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: (metromaniac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *metromaniac* »_I have almost 40 years experience, almost exclusively with manual transmissions. When I first test drove a 2.5 Jetta (and I had the car for 3 days), I must have killed the engine at lights 5 times, and I'm talking about flat roads. It was embarrassing! I drove the Tiptronic and fell in love with the car. I can't explain it; it just seems like the 2.5 and the Tiptronic are made for each other. 
 You have a good point. This makes a lot of sense to me.
Another concern of mine: What about the future when upgrades are available? I've heard that having the 5-speed will be more easily upgradable... is that correct?


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## sl33pyb (Jan 15, 2007)

i would kill for a 5th or 6th gear on the mtx. i hate cruising at 3.5k to 4k rpms in 5th.


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## vento 95 GL (May 25, 1999)

*Re: (sl33pyb)*

wouldn't the tuners be able to tune the tcu in the tiptronic to get rid of the lag or something like that. 
That would be cool. same thing they do when they tune the chip to get rid of the lag of the dbw.


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (vento 95 GL)*

I know there's a way to enable... sport mode?.. on some auto transmission with a VAG-COM... no idea if that applies to the tip or not.


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_I know there's a way to enable... sport mode?.. on some auto transmission with a VAG-COM... no idea if that applies to the tip or not.
 The Rabbit already has a Sport "gear"...


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

think most of the aftermarket needing the manual has to do with torque restraints of the automatic. However, the factory torque restraints of the manual weren't much better as far as i remember reading, so i don't know if you'd actually have better luck with either. If you're ultimate plan for the car is to modify it, you might be better with the manual transmission. On the other side, all the transmission failures that have happened thus far (knocking on wood) have been on the manual transmissions as well, and this has been for the most part under normal driving conditions, so time will only tell how it holds up under high torque/power modifications, same is true for the automatic. 
I alsomst wonder what "strange" things the auto does when 230ft/lbs of torque is exceeded that makes it so "not suitable" ...


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## vento 95 GL (May 25, 1999)

*Re: (SLiMeX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SLiMeX* »_ The Rabbit already has a Sport "gear"...

yes we know it has a sport mode already. we are talking about the possibility to get rid of the lag when changing gears in the tiptronic mode. I find you feel the lag especially in the first gears 1-2-3. 
I wonder if it is possible for the tuners to reprogram the tcu like they do with the ecu. who knows.
That would be fun to have the tip mimick the dsg lol. it would be quite entertaining. best of both worlds.


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## Gans (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: (vento 95 GL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vento 95 GL* »_
That would be fun to have the tip mimick the dsg lol. it would be quite entertaining. best of both worlds. 

Actually I believe there is a way, PM Valvecovergasket. He's a tech and mentioned something about it in a mk2 thread a while back. 


_Modified by Gans at 9:48 AM 6-28-2007_


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (Gans)*

im not a tech







in fact i have nothing to do with volkswagens professionally...
but i can tell you from the automatic transmission calibration that ive done in my particular field of expertise...that it ought to be possible. theres usually pretty simple engine protection schemes put in from the factory, that ought to be easily side stepped by a decent tuner. im sure giac or one of the other big guys in that field will come out with something eventually...
to the original poster, if you plan on EVER autoxing the car, get the manual. theres something to be said for full control of the gears during an autox that cant be made up even with a quick shifting auto


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## p c (Oct 26, 2006)

automotive enthusiast usually will drive manuals.
people who regard cars as appliances drive automatics.


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## Apoc112 (Jun 11, 2003)

i've driven manuals since i was 15, and have always really enjoyed them (learned to drive in a 5spd 1995 Camaro, first car was a 5spd 1997 Grand AM GT, second car was my 98 jetta wolfsburg)... i test drove a manual jetta and my tiptronic back to back, and found the tiptronic function to be surprisingly responsive. the low ratio of the 6th gear is also a big plus. my main reason for going with the tip was the 6th gear and the manual car having leather... i hate leather.
my buddy's 07 rabbit is a 5spd and he really loves it, but he has a hard time keeping up after 3rd gear because the shifts are so quick and crisp in the auto... pretty incredible auto trans if you ask me.
...plus if you're feeling a little manual envy, you can always shift it yourself. it's not the same, but auto-stick or the sport mode sure beat the typical automatic gear selection in the corners.


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (Apoc112)*

Think about this, if I didn't have the Tip, I wouldnt have been able to drive myself home tonight. If anyone knows about unloading trucks or their job involves it somehow you will know what I'm talking about. I unload endless waves of trucks for a living, how glamorous I know. But I enjoy it. But to span the gap between the back of the trailer and the edge of the bay, theres this thick iron "bridge" that has to pop up and "catch" and then you lay down the fully-extended bridge back down and you can roll pallet jacks across it to unload the truck. I dont know what happened because I walked across it to get in the truck and it was fine and I did what I needed to do and was walking out and set one foot on the edge of the bridge and it immeditely popped up in the middle where it hinges and then the whole thing lifted because its held taught by two huge springs and then it proceeded to smash me right in my left leg. My leg is tore up bad and I could barely manage to walk out to my car. No way would I have been able to clutch on my way home tonight. So maybe downshifts arent as lightning quick as an expert manual driver or a DSG but God bless the Tip for its convenience and economy. And when I do feel the urge to choose the gears myself, I can simply slide it into the +/- slot. Try that with your manual.
Anyways, take it easy fellow dubbers


_Modified by _V-Dubber_ at 9:04 PM 6-28-2007_


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

I finally put in the order today with the Automatic 6-speed with Tiptronic. I know I will most likely be getting a lot of grief because I did so, but its what I want. I really appreciate what everyone has said, pros and cons, about the manual and auto trannies. For me, it was the fact that since I can see myself doing some highway driving, I wanted the extra 6th gear for play. I will most likely be autoXing this Rabbit, and as much as it would be nice to have that much more control over my vehcile with the manual transmission, I will definitely still have a blast driving it.


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

well slime, congrats on making the decision, i've been more than impressed with the tip tranny, good piece of equipment, and a very very nice compromise for those who decide against the full manual...
Didn't notice this before, but...what do you have in your thirdgen?


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## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

*Re: (SLiMeX)*

Good choice. If you push the manual even a little bit hard, you'll be posting in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3240509


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: (flynavyj)*

Thanks for the positive remarks regarding my decision, it makes me feel I made the right choice. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Quote, originally posted by *flynavy* »_but...what do you have in your thirdgen?
 3.1L V6


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## QuiescentPlunge (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: (SLiMeX)*

Driving manual is so second nature to me I don't even notice it, even when it takes me an hour to drive 15 miles to work as it often does. And I only stalled it once but it was my fault for playing around too much.








I too wish first gear was deeper. Other than that 5 speeds are awesome. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Also I'm a firm believer in the fact that if all cars were manual our roads would be tons safer.


_Modified by QuiescentPlunge at 9:36 AM 6-29-2007_


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## p c (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (QuiescentPlunge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *QuiescentPlunge* »_
Also I'm a firm believer in the fact that if all cars were manual our roads would be tons safer.

_Modified by QuiescentPlunge at 9:36 AM 6-29-2007_

10000% agree


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## blast7sho (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: (QuiescentPlunge)*

My Dad always told me that if you are driving a manual correctly every once in a while you will stall out. What he meant is that you are more accurately releasing the clutch and engaging the gas at the same. This is of course opposite than those crappy manual drivers who rev it and you hear tons of engine noise before the car even goes anywhere.


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## Sarge_MK5 (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: (classicjetta)*

Not true. I have a 5-spd and push it pretty hard. Not a single problem in the 6 months and 12,500 miles I've put on it.


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## QuiescentPlunge (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: (Sarge_MK5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sarge_MK5* »_Not true. I have a 5-spd and push it pretty hard. Not a single problem in the 6 months and 12,500 miles I've put on it.

Same here I have about 13,800 with no problems at all. And I drive like a man is supposed to with the occasional outbursts of insanity. I think it's quite solid.
The problems people are posting about are imho manufacturing issues... it happens.
Either that or people not properly driving. There is a difference between driving hard and abuse.


_Modified by QuiescentPlunge at 8:53 PM 6-30-2007_


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (QuiescentPlunge)*

I'm curious if the people who've been having issues had habits like downshifting without revmatching (/double-clutching) or anything...
But from the sound of most of the problems, it sounds like a manufacturing problem over anything else... there have only been 1 or 2 posts that didn't follow that trend.


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## Gans (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: (p c)*


_Quote, originally posted by *p c* »_10000% agree

x2!!!


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## brasswhitejetta (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: (classicjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *classicjetta* »_Good choice. If you push the manual even a little bit hard, you'll be posting in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3240509

I agree that slimex made a good choice by buying whatever suits best. However, I have to disagree about the manual failing whenever you push it hard. I push my 2005.5 jetta very hard at least once a day (ever since I bought it back in 2005) and down shift at every stop. I've grinded it a few times too. Still is very solid and reliable.


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## RELIK873 (Oct 8, 2006)

*Re: The Age Old Question: Automatic VS. Manual (SLiMeX)*

DO WANT HAVE FUN DRIVING MANUAL HANDS DOWN......THATS ALL IT IS NOT A QUESTION ..ITS MINDFATRT THOUGHT. YOU HEAR THE SCREAM @6000 RPMS MUCH BETTER ON STICK THAN AUTOMATIC...AUTOMATIC IS FOR FUEL CONSERVATION AND FAMILY DRIVING ..THER IS NO BETTER FEELING THAN DROPPING A GEAR ON A SHARP TURN TO GRASP THE ROAD OR TO SIMPLY WHIZZZBY AN AUOTMATIC TRANNY DRIVING WANNBE ROADRACER..I KNOWILL SOME PISS OFF BUT THAT WHY YOU ALWAYS SEE MY TAILIGHTS JUST GETIING SMALLER




























:banghead


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

Relik, i have no idea what you just said....


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## QuiescentPlunge (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: The Age Old Question: Automatic VS. Manual (RELIK873)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RELIK873* »_DO WANT HAVE FUN DRIVING MANUAL HANDS DOWN......THATS ALL IT IS NOT A QUESTION ..ITS MINDFATRT THOUGHT. YOU HEAR THE SCREAM @6000 RPMS MUCH BETTER ON STICK THAN AUTOMATIC...AUTOMATIC IS FOR FUEL CONSERVATION AND FAMILY DRIVING ..THER IS NO BETTER FEELING THAN DROPPING A GEAR ON A SHARP TURN TO GRASP THE ROAD OR TO SIMPLY WHIZZZBY AN AUOTMATIC TRANNY DRIVING WANNBE ROADRACER..I KNOWILL SOME PISS OFF BUT THAT WHY YOU ALWAYS SEE MY TAILIGHTS JUST GETIING SMALLER




























:banghead









Anybody here speak New Yorker?







FUHGETTABOUTIT!


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## Snooze (Nov 17, 2006)

*Re: (p c)*


_Quote, originally posted by *p c* »_automotive enthusiast usually will drive manuals.
people who regard cars as appliances drive automatics.









Buy what makes U


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