# HELP: C2 VS APR Software?



## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

Ok, so I've been out of the VWub business for a while. Having owned BMWs for a while, C2 and APR has come around, and they both promise exceptional products. BUT, which one is better? HELP!!! Let me hear it from some folks.







I have a 2.5L auto (yes auto, you would know how I feel when you drive 100 miles a day in traffic in SoCal)
BTW, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!










_Modified by eatrach at 1:16 AM 12-8-2009_


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

people highly say C2 is the best.
they have a GREAT variety of update files for your car, so it can give optimum mod performance.


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: HELP: C2 VS APR Software? (eatrach)*

C2 trust me







hands down the best option IMHO 
*note I'm a bit one sided since I have C2


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## ender619 (Aug 28, 2008)

i asked myself the same question when i was shopping for an ECU upgrade... did have GIAC but was not satisfied with it. My reason for going with C2, well they have and are about the only company that has shown full interest in this engine. From the turbo set up, to the now current development of cams,quickflow, and whatever else they have in their bag of tricks... hope that helps.


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (ender619)*

It would appear so that C2 is more interested in the 2.5L. This motor deserves the best, only because I say this AUDI used it for a long time in their race cars over the years, and won one championship after another. But my concern is, and i haven't looked into C2 software yet, if they have some type of program that when i take my car in for service that the dealer wouldn't recognize it or it is not detectable. Does anyone know if C2 has such a program?


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## ender619 (Aug 28, 2008)

i dont think they check your car to see if you're running aftermarket software... i've taken mine in a few times for service ( i do my own oil change now) and they said nothing.. also they can tell if its stock or aftermarket software... by the way it drives.


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (ender619)*

true to that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (ender619)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ender619* »_i dont think they check your car to see if you're running aftermarket software... i've taken mine in a few times for service ( i do my own oil change now) and they said nothing.. also they can tell if its stock or aftermarket software... by the way it drives. 

I would love to have a discussion about my car being driven to red line by a technician with my service manager!








They can not tell if it is chipped. If you blow up your motor, they will likely have the ECU diagnosed by technicians much higher up than anyone at the VW dealership. This would definitely void a warranty.
What I'm getting at is they won't look into it unless they get paid to do so. As long as the engine is running healthy and you aren't a PITA to the dealership, they'll likely overlook any suspicious modifications to the vehicle. They don't get paid to void warranties, just to deny them when they're paying.


_Modified by kungfoojesus at 4:41 AM 12-8-2009_


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*

KungfuJesus, be glad that your technician was driving your car at 120mph on the Fwy and crashing into an oncoming SUV and totaling your car. It happened to a guy that I know. He used to own an AUDI S4 Avant TT B4 modified. The technician took it on a drive to run an errand. He was driving 120mph when an SUV suddenly moved into his lane. Well, that was the end of that car. 
I am assuming you have a C2 software.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Trying the software is the best way to see if you like it or not. We offer a 6 hour trial that lasts for 6 hours of the car being on. You can test it before you buy it w/o ever needing to go back to the dealer to purchase the software or to get rid of the software if you don't like it.
We also offer a 30 day money back guarantee after you purchase the software.
We have a stage I program, a Test-pipe program, and we are looking to write a header back exhaust program next week if we find a calibration change make a difference on top of a full hardware change. 

Another thing we offer some others don't is the ability to switch between your stock and chipped programs as well as other features. With a fully loaded APR ECU you can do all of the following:

Run these programs:
Stock map - same program that came with your car
91 octane map - performance map for 91 octane fuel
93 octane map - performance map for 93 octane fuel
valet map - a very limpped down version of the engine you can give to your valet so they cant take your car for a joy ride.
We also offer these features:
Program switching - use your cruise control stalk to cycle though programs
Fault code erase - a program to clear engine fault codes 
Security lockout - a feature that allows you to lock the care in any mode such as stock making it completely invisible to any prying eyes. 
Anti-Theft - a feature that renders the throttle completely disabled. IF someone breaks into your house, nabs your keys, and tries to drive off, they'll be unable to do so!


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## CaTiRo (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ that lasts for 6 hours of the car being on. 


You know I didn't know that. For some reason I thought 6 hours from the time the flash was done.
I am going to have to come up and get the trial flash.


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## CaTiRo (Sep 23, 2008)

and i just notice the sales price ...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

How much will it be for the header software if I already have a fully loaded ECU?

I wish you had a tune for my intake mani.. but considering there are not a lot it's probably not viable.
Also; since im using your software.. will I be able to run an intake without a maf spacer without throwing a code?


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## sleeper247 (Oct 2, 2009)

*Re: (eatrach)*

I would go with the apr program or at least try it out first. I had the trial program and noticed a huge difference. The difference was what helped me in the decision to invest in mods for the 2.5L. I have an automatic also and was very satisfied with the program. One thing about apr is that they would not sell you a product if its not going to be worth investing in. Also apr's staff is extremely nice, if you have a questions they will take their time to answer it. Customer service is excellent.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (BluMagic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BluMagic* »_How much will it be for the header software if I already have a fully loaded ECU?

Free

_Quote »_I wish you had a tune for my intake mani.. but considering there are not a lot it's probably not viable.

Are there any really popular routes people are taking that require a retune?

_Quote »_Also; since im using your software.. will I be able to run an intake without a maf spacer without throwing a code?

Our carbonio intake works w/o any issues.


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## Cabrio60 (Oct 14, 2006)

Has APR gotten their hands on an '09 Rabbit or '10 Golf 2.5 to create a tune for these cars?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Cabrio60)*

Not yet, sorry!


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## Cabrio60 (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Not yet, sorry!

Thanks for the heads-up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

Arin, is the test pipe/high-flow cat program a different mapping, or does it just eliminate the CEL?


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

Are there any really popular routes people are taking that require a retune?


Oh i like free.








but to answer the question... naw. I have one of eight eurojet intake manifolds. I figured it would benefit even more from a proper tune. Since there are so little amount of manifolds... there's nothing really popular about it.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Jon1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jon1983* »_Arin, is the test pipe/high-flow cat program a different mapping, or does it just eliminate the CEL?

It was just a cel delete. Didn't see much of a measurable improvement from further software changes over the hardware changes if I remember correctly. However, that being said one customer is bringing us a full header back setup so we'll see if we can get anything further from that.


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## markfif (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: (Jon1983)*

im pretty sure it is just to eliminate the CEL. i am running APR's testpipe file on my 07 auto jetta and LOVE it. after dealing with the pesky CEL for a few months i was a huge relief to hear APR released this software. the ease of changing programs and the reputation of APR as being one of the TOP manufacturers for the newer vw and audi helped me decide to go this route. i had unitronic to begin with and changed to APR based on customer service. and im super glad i made the switch http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jon1983 (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_It was just a cel delete. Didn't see much of a measurable improvement from further software changes over the hardware changes if I remember correctly. However, that being said one customer is bringing us a full header back setup so we'll see if we can get anything further from that.









http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I'm either leaving everything stock or doing header-back (edit: or turbo)... go big or go home, right?










_Modified by Jon1983 at 11:06 AM 12-9-2009_


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (Jon1983)*

educate me people, what is CEL?


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (eatrach)*

Check engine light


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (vwluger22)*


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## DRedman45 (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re: (vwluger22)*

its the improper use for what is actually the MIL malfunction indicator lamp


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

*Re: (DRedman45)*








CEL was throwing me off. this nursing school is messing with my mind


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Trying the software is the best way to see if you like it or not. We offer a 6 hour trial that lasts for 6 hours of the car being on. You can test it before you buy it w/o ever needing to go back to the dealer to purchase the software or to get rid of the software if you don't like it.
We also offer a 30 day money back guarantee after you purchase the software.
We have a stage I program, a Test-pipe program, and we are looking to write a header back exhaust program next week if we find a calibration change make a difference on top of a full hardware change. 

Another thing we offer some others don't is the ability to switch between your stock and chipped programs as well as other features. With a fully loaded APR ECU you can do all of the following:

Run these programs:
Stock map - same program that came with your car
91 octane map - performance map for 91 octane fuel
93 octane map - performance map for 93 octane fuel
valet map - a very limpped down version of the engine you can give to your valet so they cant take your car for a joy ride.
We also offer these features:
Program switching - use your cruise control stalk to cycle though programs
Fault code erase - a program to clear engine fault codes 
Security lockout - a feature that allows you to lock the care in any mode such as stock making it completely invisible to any prying eyes. 
Anti-Theft - a feature that renders the throttle completely disabled. IF someone breaks into your house, nabs your keys, and tries to drive off, they'll be unable to do so!


I like _almost_ everything I read and next time I'm at my local dealer (to pick up my shocks...in about a week), I will ask them load up the 6hr trial.
The "_almost_" part refers to what I read on your website about the reflash. In the description of what the reflash consists of, it says the idle is raised and the new redline is only 6500rpm.
I've never had a problem with the factory idle and think that all this feature would do is use more fuel while I'm sitting in traffic. Also, on 2008+ inline 5's, the redline from the factory is already 6300rpm, raising it by only 200rpm isn't enough. I've run into so-oh many times auto-xing and on the street that I think I would need at least another 500rpm.
Can the above request be made fairly easily?
One last thing. It isn't easy to decifer from the reflash description, but is the "stepped" engine braking feature been _completely_ removed (as in, when you let of the accelorator, does the throttle body shut completely closed like it would on a drive by mechanical cable car)? What about the rev hang between shifts, has this been completely removed as well (as in, when you let of the accelorator, does the throttle body shut completely closed like it would on a drive by mechanical cable car)?


_Modified by dohc at 12:36 AM 1-31-2010_


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

just a FYI the rev hang is like 50% software 50% flywheel. to get rid of it entirely you need to switch to a single mass flywheel


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (BluMagic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BluMagic* »_just a FYI the rev hang is like 50% software 50% flywheel. to get rid of it entirely you need to switch to a single mass flywheel

Well, yes and no. Revs hanging is completely due to software, the rate at which revs drop is due to the flywheel. I do plan on replacing the dual mass as well BTW


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## Outie5000 (Aug 8, 2007)

I'll buy software once it comes with full customizability on the users end. It seems like the VW performance world is the only place where you can't tune your own car to your own specifications. 
I know too many people who tune their evo's, subarus, volvos, hondas, etc. It's nice to be able to adjust all the variable to your liking. Until that happens though, I see a 600 dollar price tag as a bit of a rip off.


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## david8814 (Aug 14, 2007)

APR is a little bit more conservative than C2 which is why I chose to get an APR tune for the bunny. I enjoy the peace of mind. My $0.02.


_Modified by david8814 at 5:51 PM 2-1-2010_


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

C2 is great and VERY VERY reliable.
and awesome driveability...


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

how is apr more conservative? c2 atleast offers an 87 octane program where as apr only has the 91 and 93 octane...saving money in the long run with the c2 isnt that being conservative.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (dohc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dohc* »_
Well, yes and no. Revs hanging is completely due to software, the rate at which revs drop is due to the flywheel. I do plan on replacing the dual mass as well BTW


_Quote, originally posted by *BluMagic* »_just a FYI the rev hang is like 50% software 50% flywheel. to get rid of it entirely you need to switch to a single mass flywheel

The stock flywheel is not heavy enough to limit rev drop rate.
In short: 
Rev hand AND rev drop rate are tunable in software.
I tune both.

-Jeffrey Atwood C2


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## mcsdude23 (Aug 15, 2006)

Does eliminating rev hang get rid of that jerky motion with I let off the throttle in traffic?


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
The stock flywheel is not heavy enough to limit rev drop rate.
In short: 
Rev hand AND rev drop rate are tunable in software.
I tune both.

-Jeffrey Atwood C2


Jeff, what about keeping the stock idle and raising the rev limiter a little (an addtional ~300rpm or so)?
I hope the first request isn't an issue, but I can see the second requiring some additional tuning.


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## magics5rip (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: (mcsdude23)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mcsdude23* »_Does eliminating rev hang get rid of that jerky motion with I let off the throttle in traffic?

I hope so. I'd purchase the flash tomorrow if it'll clear that issue up!


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## mcsdude23 (Aug 15, 2006)

*Re: (magics5rip)*

x2


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (mcsdude23)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mcsdude23* »_Does eliminating rev hang get rid of that jerky motion with I let off the throttle in traffic?

I think that has more to do with the really spongy torque mount. I have the insert and its made it way better, but it still does it. I think the remaining "jerk" can only be eliminated with stiffer hub springs in the clutch.


_Modified by dohc at 2:08 PM 2-9-2010_


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## Stl2.0 (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: (dohc)*

Okay, I'm a complete noob with ECU upgrades (obviously, since I dont have one). I'm considering getting the C2 87 octane one, and I'm just wondering (probably a stupid question) has anyone had anything go horribly wrong after getting chipped? I seem to have really bad luck with any performance mod added to my cars in the past...seems like something always manages to go wrong. I just don't want to spend $300 and have this thing end up screwing up my car.


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## magics5rip (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: (Stl2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stl2.0* »_Okay, I'm a complete noob with ECU upgrades (obviously, since I dont have one). I'm considering getting the C2 87 octane one, and I'm just wondering (probably a stupid question) has anyone had anything go horribly wrong after getting chipped? I seem to have really bad luck with any performance mod added to my cars in the past...seems like something always manages to go wrong. I just don't want to spend $300 and have this thing end up screwing up my car.

Its a c2 product. I've ran their software in other VWs and its been flawless.


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## C2Motorsports (Nov 25, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stl2.0* »_Okay, I'm a complete noob with ECU upgrades (obviously, since I dont have one). I'm considering getting the C2 87 octane one, and I'm just wondering (probably a stupid question) has anyone had anything go horribly wrong after getting chipped? I seem to have really bad luck with any performance mod added to my cars in the past...seems like something always manages to go wrong. I just don't want to spend $300 and have this thing end up screwing up my car.


If you are in Salem, I would assume that you will be coming down to http://www.GROSSMANTUNING.com in Louisville for the C2 Flashload?
If it makes you feel any better, I will make time to meet you in person at our C2 Dealer and walk through the entire process with you in order to alleviate any worries.
Chris
c2


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## Stl2.0 (Apr 21, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (C2Motorsports)*


_Quote, originally posted by *C2Motorsports* »_
If you are in Salem, I would assume that you will be coming down to http://www.GROSSMANTUNING.com in Louisville for the C2 Flashload?
If it makes you feel any better, I will make time to meet you in person at our C2 Dealer and walk through the entire process with you in order to alleviate any worries.
Chris
c2


Awesome. I'm coming to Water by the Bridge so I'd love to ask you about it there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mcsdude23 (Aug 15, 2006)

Why is it that the only good tuning company that offers a flash for my 06 rabbit does not have a dealer in TX... I think C2 is great and is the way to go. 

On a side note (just my opinion)
I am very disappointed in APR because they can make a bunch of different flashes for the fsi and tsi along with random performance parts but they cannot make one flash for at least all the bosch ECM cars for the 2.5L (yes I know there are several). Its like apr only STARTED to make the 2.5L flash files because they were bored and they need something to do to kill time. Now they have a few more ECM files but they still do not have one for most 06 and 05.5(JETTA) 2.5L ECMs. I guess apr has been too busy making stage 1 flash files for the TSI motor that causes minor clutch slippage/glazing after 12k-15k (this comes from several personal accounts). 
In the end I rather support the underdog because at least C2 is trying to make a good product and make money at the same time. Whereas, others have forgotten how to make a quality product and have let their name go to their head.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

whats that?? toyota..? lol...


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## mcsdude23 (Aug 15, 2006)

Do not get me started on toyota...thats just embarrassing.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

*Re: (mcsdude23)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mcsdude23* »_Do not get me started on toyota...thats just embarrassing.


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