# Buy now or wait?



## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

I'm a long time VW/Audi owner. As I'm typing this post, I am telling myself "you should know better". But read on.

I've got 3 kids, 2 teenagers. Our current vehicle, an Acura MDX, is fine but starting to fall apart with under 100k miles. So much for Honda quality.

I showed my wife the Atlas, and she likes it. Of course, she likes the hard-to-find Kurkuma Yellow, which is guaranteed to be discontinued next year (I owned one of the first 99.5 MkIV Jettas in Cosmic Green). She also wanted to know if it comes in a stick (no, but I bet we could convert it with some Passat parts in 5-6 years...)

My gut says to wait. This engine is underpowered and I bet the 2.0t will be a better choice though dealers are saying it will be even worse than the V6.
I also bet there are a lot of quality issues that will get sorted in the 2nd year, much like that MkIV Jetta which had a number of such issues.

I could get a CPO Q7 for the same price, but it has less room and won't be new. An X5 35d would be great but that 3rd row space is almost nonexistent.
Mazda CX9 is too small.

So... if you've had the same thoughts but ended up buying the Atlas anyway, do you regret it?


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## nkresho (Aug 8, 2010)

i can weigh in on the power issue... 

Drive it first, then decide. 

My gti has the 2.0t. With a stage 2 tune (if they end up offering it for the Atlas) you can get a bit more hp (~300ish) and a lot more torque (in the ~360-380 ft/lb range). That's all with a downpipe and other supporting mods. Users with manuals (in the mk7 GTI) nearly all experience clutch slip and have to replace it. DSG seems to handle it fine, although the Atlas will likely have a weaker torque converter unit fitted compared to the dsg. 

My opinion in the Atlas, it doesn't feel too underpowered. It isn't the gti, but it seats 7 and is a comfortable ride. Onramps and passing are sufficient. Driving it daily, it does not bother me. I've been driving it for about 3 months so far. I drive the gti a few times a week too.

I'm not sure the Atlas drivetrain is going to be ready for stage 2+ levels from the 2.0t. Additionally, a tuner would need to develop and release it. That said, the market would need to necessitate it, in order for that to become a reality. So, there would have to be a good number of Atlas owners, with the 2.0t, ready to drop $600+ on a tune and any necessary supporting mods.

So yeah, IMHO, drive it then decide.

About the manual tranny, I wouldn't mess with it. the shift points are controlled by the driving mode (eco, normal, sport), which is controlled by the radio. It's very integrated with everything else.


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## BaNeM (Aug 7, 2017)

danix_vw said:


> I'm a long time VW/Audi owner. As I'm typing this post, I am telling myself "you should know better". But read on.
> 
> I've got 3 kids, 2 teenagers. Our current vehicle, an Acura MDX, is fine but starting to fall apart with under 100k miles. So much for Honda quality.
> 
> ...


I'm of a similar mindset as you that it is always better to wait rather than buy a first year vehicle. That said, it was time to get rid of our Escalade that we had previously so we took a look at everything that was on the market with 3 rows and the Atlas was our choice. I have no regrets whatsoever. After driving it, I actually liked it better than the Pilot that we test drove which many like better for power. If you're looking for something new, as the last commenter said, drive it and see what you think but I am personally quite happy with our Atlas thus far.


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## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

In before Eddy saying it's under powered and wait. 

Echoing what was said above, drive it. We felt it was fine power wise. Is there better? Sure. Is there worse? Yup.

It does everything we need. It's got good enough passing power, it handles well, and it's got loooads of space.

I think part of the problem is people comparing it to unlike vehicles.

Edit to add: Not sure on the quality issues. If you mean the trim I think it's unlikely to change. Something I can see happening is them changing to LEDs all over. Would leasing for a year be an option? See if you really like it?


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## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

I'd love to drive the 2.0 but they don't exist yet. I'm guessing the new Tiguan will have the same engine, but who knows. VW can't tell me when the 2.0 is starting production.

I'm also questioning 4motion vs not. I'm a fan of AWD, but where we live we drive up to the snow maybe twice a year, and it only rains 3 months out of the year. I have a feeling I'd be better off skipping the 4motion and getting slightly better MPGs.

In terms of trim level, the base S is not bad but the SE seems to be the sweet spot. The base cloth is not going to wear well, and the SE also adds safety features like blind spot and heated seats which are desirable. I'm less sure about upgrading to the SE Technology, where the main benefit is the forward collision avoidance. Keeping your eyes on the road should probably suffice and I hate the feature in my MDX.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

As someone said: to jump in before edyvw comes. 
As most people know, I will say: WAIT!
For me, car is ridiculously underpowered. It has probably the worst mpg in class (due to being underpowered). Now, as some stated, it is fine when you are hauling kids to school, grocery. That is all OK. But, IMO, if you are considering Atlas as road trip car, pass it for now. 
I cannot imagine myself negotiating passes over the Rockies twice a week to ski with that snail. Can I live with it going to work? probably. But I put 30k on my car a year, and that is not coming from driving to work and picking up groceries. 
I actually went today again to VW dealership to see if there is anything there that could justify purchasing it. I also need bigger car, my X5 is getting tight with one child since we travel 2000+ miles trips several times a year. But, although Atlas hits all points that matter to me, it does not hit the most important one: engine. 
It is uber practical, it is real VW inside, everything makes sense, no nonsense, except that VR6. 
As far as I know, 2.0T is going to be offered strictly in FWD configuration and apparently only as a base model. I was of same thinking: offer 2.0T in AWD, do tune, and that is it. 
However, I think wise thing is to wait facelift that might be coming 2020 or 2021. I was thinking that only reason why 2.5 V6 turbo is not offered yet here is that VW wants to make sure that engine is solid enough to offer here and do not face class action lawsuits. China is good testing ground for that engine since State is protecting more manufacturers then consumers. I cannot see how VW will stay competitive with 3.6 V6 in the future since they already lag in MPG and performance compare to others. 
So my decision is to live with X5 (not that difficult) until they offer facelift and new engine. 
Also, if you absolutely need to have bigger car, I would get 2019 model year. It does not matter who is manufacturer, first year models will have issues. 
As for MDX, I know what you talking about. Honda is POS. My in laws have 2009 Pilot, and they drive like snails. Still they manage to go thru front diff., three sets of brakes (rotors and pads), VCM issues, and uses gas like MIG-21.


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## jkueter (Feb 12, 2008)

I want to address the power issue for a minute as someone who actually owns the car.

Edyvw's description does not sound like my experience. It really sounds like he was driving around in eco mode, which is kind of scary if you are somewhere where you might need to get off the line quick (or out of the way). Driving in normal (FWD people don't have these options) it takes off quickly, is about as responsive as you can get from an Auto (I moved up from a 6 speed and still miss that), and have no problem with acceleration at speed (passing on the highway). I've had it filled with 7 big people (including a 6 footer in the third row) and didn't feel any change in power.

I'm coming up on 5k miles, my combined mpg is around 20 (I commute a combo of surface streets and highway with a lot of stop and go traffic 60 miles a day). I took a long trip this weekend and got 23.7mpg, it would have been higher but sat in slow traffic for an hour. I have seen some people complain about mpg, but that's due to their driving habits: short trips (2 miles or less) in the city and you end up with 12-14mpg. City mpg comes up, but you need to drive for a longer period so keep your driving needs in mind before you purchase.

I do wish it had a bigger fuel tank. My last car didn't need to be filled until I got over 500 miles, so 300 mile fill-ups are annoying.

I don't tow, so that's not an issue for me.


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## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

jkueter said:


> I want to address the power issue for a minute as someone who actually owns the car.
> 
> Edyvw's description does not sound like my experience. It really sounds like he was driving around in eco mode, which is kind of scary if you are somewhere where you might need to get off the line quick (or out of the way). Driving in normal (FWD people don't have these options) it takes off quickly, is about as responsive as you can get from an Auto (I moved up from a 6 speed and still miss that), and have no problem with acceleration at speed (passing on the highway). I've had it filled with 7 big people (including a 6 footer in the third row) and didn't feel any change in power.
> 
> ...



First time we went in for our test drive the people before us said it was under powered and they were disappointed. We got in and, sure enough, it was in Eco heh. Had to wonder if they did the entire drive in eco because when we put it in normal it was fine.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

jkueter said:


> I want to address the power issue for a minute as someone who actually owns the car.
> 
> Edyvw's description does not sound like my experience. It really sounds like he was driving around in eco mode, which is kind of scary if you are somewhere where you might need to get off the line quick (or out of the way). Driving in normal (FWD people don't have these options) it takes off quickly, is about as responsive as you can get from an Auto (I moved up from a 6 speed and still miss that), and have no problem with acceleration at speed (passing on the highway). I've had it filled with 7 big people (including a 6 footer in the third row) and didn't feel any change in power.
> 
> ...


Yes, because edyvw, with 10+ years of experience as test driver in oil industry and car magazine, sure does not know what is eco mode, comfort or sport. 
Maybe turning off eco mode is big feat for you, so you think other people have similar problem, but trust me, it is simpler then that.


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## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

edyvw said:


> Yes, because edyvw, with 10+ years of experience as test driver in oil industry and car magazine, sure does not know what is eco mode, comfort or sport.
> Maybe turning off eco mode is big feat for you, so you think other people have similar problem, but trust me, it is simpler then that.


I haven't driven one but am getting very strong price offers so looks like I'll be trying one today and perhaps buying one.
I would consider leasing but I think the lease rates aren't great right now.

Wife wants a Kurkuma Yellow but the blue with the grey interior was appealing to me, until I saw a photo with how dirty the grey looked after minor use.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

danix_vw said:


> I haven't driven one but am getting very strong price offers so looks like I'll be trying one today and perhaps buying one.
> I would consider leasing but I think the lease rates aren't great right now.
> 
> Wife wants a Kurkuma Yellow but the blue with the grey interior was appealing to me, until I saw a photo with how dirty the grey looked after minor use.


If you really need big three row hauler, Atlas is best vehicle out there to simply go from point A to point B. If you can wait, I would. It is easy to live with so so audio system etc., but not with engine like that. I was researching performance numbers of Teramont (Chinese Atlas) with 2.5 V6 Turbo, and it gets 23mpg in the city paired with DSG. That just proves that VR6 is overburdened in this vehicle. 


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## nofluca1212 (Aug 8, 2017)

Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about here so pardon my ignorance. I just came out of a 2014 Acura MDX. I agree the Atlas drives completely different. Yes, not as powerful, not as fun period. I tend to use the tiptronic when necessary to do my passing and get the extra power when needed. Yes it's a workaround but perfectly plausible. I don't drive Colorado mountain passes but I do drive in Vermont every week during Northeast winters. I needed a new vehicle so I couldn't just wait. My feeling is the extra room and utility I get from it overrides the lack of power in the engine. Note that I leased so I'll be in a new one in three years anyway.


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## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

edyvw said:


> Yes, because edyvw, with 10+ years of experience as test driver in oil industry and car magazine, sure does not know what is eco mode, comfort or sport.
> Maybe turning off eco mode is big feat for you, so you think other people have similar problem, but trust me, it is simpler then that.


Should have guessed by your attitude that (you think) you're more advanced than everyone else...


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## jkopelc (Mar 1, 2017)

Danix - Provide commentary after your drive if you can.

Thanks to all owners who have done so already - greatly appreciated to have opinions (and yes they are subjective) but great to have subjective opinions based on a real world drive.

I have been on a drive twice and agree with most of what has been posted here. In Eco mode, your performance is exactly what you would expect. No excitement - just a ho hum drive to try and maximize efficiency. For me there were some differences between Normal and Sport - mainly being that in Sport the shift points were a little more aggressive. Likely to more so just give the feel of a more sportier drive (as there is only so much you can do when its the same engine in all applications.) I didn't notice much of a steering change however. To any owners, has anyone developed a nice custom setting and tinkered with whatever changes are available? (steering, shift, etc?).

I think best said by one of the earlier posters. Is there better engines? Yes. Are there worse out there? Yes. But IMO I think the 8 speed transmission makes up for it. Acceleration off the line is responsive and smooth as the Atlas shifts through its gears with ease. Is it the fastest? No. But I am not buying this vehicle to drag race the vehicle next to me from a stop light. Frankly, if you are a soccer mom in a Pilot or an Explorer and you can do 0-60 in 6 versus my 8 seconds, it doesn't matter all that much to me. Realistically in city driving, you aren't going to have that many 0-60 stretches of road and if you do, by all means go ahead and make it to that stop light before me. Our city driving will be mostly 0-40 and again this is where the shift points are so nicely aligned and sleek. When it comes to freeway driving, again, very seldom are you ever going to need a 0-60 run or 0-100 run so to me those metrics while nice to look at are not meaningful in everyday driving.

More important for me, is the ability to pass and downshift as needed. Personally, I thought the Atlas was good here. Again not blazing passing speed but not terrible either. As I write this, I wish I would have paid more attention as I drove on the highway as I am not sure where the tach was during cruising speed. So would appreciate anyone chiming in. I know max torque is at 2750 rpm. So if cruising is around 2000 rpm there is still power before hitting that max which is good. However the only problem I could see would be if we cruise around 2700 rpm or something close to that max because then there is not much left in the engine to push you harder for those passing moves. The engine is probably tuned to what would be the average legal cruising speed in America (which unfortunately may be lower than a lot of us like to drive which then may leave us looking for a little more power as we pass).

Anyway...thats my long winded opinion on this topic - or in response to where this topic has gone


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## jkueter (Feb 12, 2008)

edyvw said:


> Yes, because edyvw, with 10+ years of experience as test driver in oil industry and car magazine, sure does not know what is eco mode, comfort or sport.
> Maybe turning off eco mode is big feat for you, so you think other people have similar problem, but trust me, it is simpler then that.


Aww, did I hurt your feelings by suggesting your description of the vehicle is what Eco mode feels like? Just relating my experience as someone who actually dives the car every day. Maybe I don't drive big manly oil trucks every day, but come on it's a family hauler not a work truck.

Lighten up Francis.


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## dre5ified (Jan 14, 2016)

I traded my MK7 GTI PP for the V6 Atlas 4 motion

My driving experience is that the Atlas accelerates fine from 0-45 or so then the acceleration dips a bit after that. Likely due to the transmission more than the engine. 

The Atlas drives great for what it was built for and has plenty of power IMHO.

If you want a fast car go buy a fast car. This is a 4500lb people carrier. 

Just drive the car and make your own judgement.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

JohnNS said:


> Should have guessed by your attitude that (you think) you're more advanced than everyone else...


Because turning off eco mode requires advance degree. 
That is at least attitude I am getting from you guys. 

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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

jkueter said:


> Aww, did I hurt your feelings by suggesting your description of the vehicle is what Eco mode feels like? Just relating my experience as someone who actually dives the car every day. Maybe I don't drive big manly oil trucks every day, but come on it's a family hauler not a work truck.
> 
> Lighten up Francis.


Yes, because in sport mode makes 350lb-ft. 
Maybe you try Mazda CX-9, Explorer Ecoboost, and then talk about power in Atlas?


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## jkueter (Feb 12, 2008)

edyvw said:


> Yes, because in sport mode makes 350lb-ft.
> Maybe you try Mazda CX-9, Explorer Ecoboost, and then talk about power in Atlas?


I never said it was awesome. I said it's enough and not as bad as you make it out to be.

I like the CX-9, just too small inside. It was an option.


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## Jiminy Crickets (Jul 1, 2017)

I'm an SEL (FWD only) owner, just broke 1K miles, got the car July 1 so I'm not driving it long - or hard. My #1 need was space for cargo and comfortable space (for short distances) for passengers. I also shuttle my kids and their growing loads of "stuff" around (they're 5 and 8), again mostly short distance.

I am not finding any 'lack of pickup or power' in my day to day driving whatsoever. 

I am thrilled with the smooth ride, comfortable interior, beautiful sunroof, and excellent sounding stereo (not the premium Fender, just the garden variety stock system sounds pretty darn good, and I'm particular). I came from leasing a Honda Pilot for 3 years (I liked that OK, but the Atlas is superior in almost every way).

From safety ratings to reviews and comparisons to shootouts between similar vehicles, the Atlas is coming out on top or near the top of the pack everywhere I look. Yes there are some swings & misses that will likely get sorted, and yes the (city) mileage leaves a little to be desired, but for my needs and my purposes, the Atlas is a home run.

Just like any internet forum, negative experiences are all too common and folks who are simply enjoying their choice typically don't make much noise. I'm in that department, and I'll bet the overwhelming majority of Atlas owners thus far are too. 

Good luck!


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

jkopelc said:


> Danix - Provide commentary after your drive if you can.
> 
> Thanks to all owners who have done so already - greatly appreciated to have opinions (and yes they are subjective) but great to have subjective opinions based on a real world drive.
> 
> ...


You are right on spot here. I was arguing in other threads that 0-60 does not mean anything. My BMW is second behind Honda Pilot 0-60. However, I can guarantee you I will leave Pilot in dust in 20-60, 40-80 or 60-100, whatever. 
In these SUV's it is all about torque. 
After driving Highlander, Pilot etc. I think problem is also placement of torque. While on paper 266 at 2750rpms makes a lot of sense, problem is that when you need max power, tranny will downshift to lowest possible gear. That is where engines that have peak torque are good, like Highlander or Pilot. Or you put turbo engine that makes that up with abundance of torque. 
Where VW made mistake is not offering one more, stronger engine for traditional VW buyers and engine that would compete with Explorer ecoboost (and while Atlas has much better suspension IMO, that 3.5 T in explorer will obliterate Atlas in any kind of acceleration, 0-60 or passing). 
So you have option for people who want just to drive from point A to point B, and people who actually think they did not die just because they got kids. 



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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

To add on that torque. When Mazda was developing CX-9, they had test drivers fallowing people who were picking ip kids from schools to better understand driving patterns. What they figured is that people accelerate much harder on entrance to main roads or HWY's. That was the reason why they tuned 2.5T engine to 227hp with regular gas or 250hp with premium. But in either of those versions, regardless of gas you use, engine delivers 310lb-ft of torque. 


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## GTi_4_Life (Dec 24, 2004)

My two cents.

I've owned my SEL Premium for a month and have almost 2k miles on it. I drive it daily on both long and short trips. I've averaged around 23 mpg. I don't know why people talk smack about power and acceleration, it's a big ass SUV what do you expect? With that being said I have no issues with acceleration and power, it's no where near the slug some people seem to claim. It's not an R, but if you want one mine I traded in is still at the dealership lol. The only thing I wish is the same as jkueter, a bigger gas tank would of been nice but by no means is it a deal killer. I really enjoy driving the Atlas. Plenty of room for 7 passengers, comfortable ride and enough bells and whistles that I am still figuring out. The only issue I've had to date is with the digital display changing to diesel (in another thread) and VWoA is all over it already and will compensate me for the inconvenience. Great job by VW in my opinion, and this is my 21st VW so I've been around for many of VW's ups and downs.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

GTi_4_Life said:


> My two cents.
> 
> I've owned my SEL Premium for a month and have almost 2k miles on it. I drive it daily on both long and short trips. I've averaged around 23 mpg. I don't know why people talk smack about power and acceleration, i*t's a big ass SUV* what do you expect? With that being said I have no issues with acceleration and power, it's no where near the slug some people seem to claim. It's not an R, but if you want one mine I traded in is still at the dealership lol. The only thing I wish is the same as jkueter, a bigger gas tank would of been nice but by no means is it a deal killer. I really enjoy driving the Atlas. Plenty of room for 7 passengers, comfortable ride and enough bells and whistles that I am still figuring out. The only issue I've had to date is with the digital display changing to diesel (in another thread) and VWoA is all over it already and will compensate me for the inconvenience. Great job by VW in my opinion, and this is my 21st VW so I've been around for many of VW's ups and downs.


Others are also big ass SUV's, but do much better job in MPG and performance. 
VW managed to get same MPG numbers as BMW E70 35i, that has 400lbs more and 300hp, 300lb-ft engine. Heckuva achievement on VW part.


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## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

edyvw said:


> Because turning off eco mode requires advance degree.
> That is at least attitude I am getting from you guys.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





edyvw said:


> Yes, because edyvw, with 10+ years of experience as test driver in oil industry and car magazine, sure does not know what is eco mode, comfort or sport.
> Maybe turning off eco mode is big feat for you, so you think other people have similar problem, but trust me, it is simpler then that.


^^ You listed your credentials in the third person and stated "Maybe turning off eco mode is a big feat for you.." 

Yet the attitude is coming from other people... riiiiight.:facepalm:

Anyway - you have many more people saying it's good and one saying it's not.

What's the price on that BMW, similarly equipped? I mean, let's go apples to apples here.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

JohnNS said:


> ^^ You listed your credentials in the third person and stated "Maybe turning off eco mode is a big feat for you.."
> 
> Yet the attitude is coming from other people... riiiiight.:facepalm:
> 
> ...


Attitude, because of assumption and then elaboration about Eco mode. I understand that that might be new thing for some people to discover, and it took some time to figure it out, but seriously? 
Apples to apples? CX-9 has engine with enough torque and good MPG, not to mention explorer ecoboost with much stronger engine and only 1mpg lower (EPA estimate). Ford actually offers three engines, 2.3T, 3.5 V6 and 3.5 V6 Turbo. I drove recently 2017 Highlander, and it feels more powerful then Atlas (though Toyota's programing of 8 speed Aisin is more tuned for comfort, and it is really slow in manual mode). VW could offer 2.0T FWD, 3.6 VR6 and 2.5 V6 TSI. Two options why not:
1. Testing V6 TSI in China before bringing here (good move).
b. Protecting Q7 (I think that will burry Atlas). 
In the end, for the sake of argument, what is difference between eco and sport mode? Throttle mapping! We are not talking about 50lb-ft of torque here. 
Anyway, I did not say car is not good. Checks all boxes (hell, you can move that thing from point A to point B with 1.4 TSI), big, practical, etc. But, engine performance/consumption might be a problem selling this in numbers they need. We will see at the end of the year once sale numbers come out. However, I yet to see one here on the streets, unlike 2017 Highlander when it got out, it was like cockroaches running from flood within few weeks.
Reason why I am pissed, and I am seriously pissed about this is that I was betting on this and planning my next car around this. I do not want to drive boats like Highlander, but I also do not want VW that is in the race of who will build most boring vehicle to drive.


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## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

So, here's an update. It's not what you expect. Hell, it's not what I expected.
I had not driven an Atlas and neither had my wife. It's a VW, I read the reviews, so I would have bought one sight unseen - almost.

At lunchtime, I found the exact color she wanted (Kurkuma Yellow). It's really neat and I knew she would like it.
I had thought about the blue with the shetland grey interior, but the grey is really more like a tan (nice) but too light for wear and tear with kids.

We got in, I started it up. Made sure it was not in Eco mode. 
First thing I noticed is the steering is super light. I mean, spin it with one finger light. I asked him if it tightens up on the road and he says yes, it's electronic steering.
Pulling out, I notice the size of the vehicle. It feels more like driving a Tahoe than a Toureg (or MDX in my case). It makes a difference.

Tested the power - it was not horrible. Not something I'd call a performance vehicle - my MDX when you get it up above 6000 rpm really sings, but the Atlas has torque down low and around town where it matters. The midrange seemed a little flat, and that may be intentional but I bet it's one of the first things a tuner will tackle, is smoothing out that power delivery curve.

Did some side roads, onramps, onto the freeway. Here's the problem: I hate the suspension. I mean this thing feels like a 70s Buick, or maybe a newer Camry. Cushioned yes, not jarring, but little in the way of feedback and way too floaty. I ask him if the sport mode will stiffen up the suspension and he says no, its not an adjustable suspension.
It was so soft I was actually getting a little seasick (between that and the size).

Called my wife and told her to go to our local dealer and try one. She did. Kind of same thing, she thought it was too big, and also hated the suspension.
She said "I want something that drives like X" where X is the 2006 Audi A3 with 80k miles I just got for my daughter, so there's your benchmark.

I had a great deal lined up ($2750 off MSRP) in the color and options I wanted. It's just not the vehicle we apparently wanted.

If VW is listening, get a sport suspension setup pronto. Traditional VW buyers (of which I am one) will not like driving this vehicle.

If I thought there was an aftermarket at this point, I'd get a set of Konis or Bilsteins and install them before taking delivery and call it a day. At $35k the Atlas is a great value, so great that I have no idea now what to buy.

CX9: feels cheap, 3rd row is small.
Q7: expensive, 3rd row is small.
X5: 3rd row is a joke and expensive
Hyundai, Kia: um no
Chevrolet Traverse: wasn't in stock (2018, and they are giving away the 2017)
Pilot: same quality as my Acura and I'm not happy with that
MDX: same thing I have now, for $50k. No thanks.

Thanks for the feedback. Wish the story was different.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

I hate to say, but suspension wise, except Porsche, only contender is BMW. 
I am still trying to find any possible way to load up two kids, all stuff in X5 and drive to San Diego (my usual route), and it is already cramped with one kid. I think with mid cycle design they will tackle engine and suspension, but it won't drive like A3. 
Is big 3rd row absolute necessity for you since based on remark about getting car for daughter, you have grown up kids? If third row is not absolute necessity, I would go with used BMW E70 35i. There is nothing that has better steering feel and suspension among SUV's. 
That is why I am thinking even if I get Atlas, I will get rid of Tiguan and keep X5 for wife, because it is just blast to drive.


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## brbutler (Sep 15, 2011)

danix_vw said:


> Did some side roads, onramps, onto the freeway. Here's the problem: I hate the suspension. I mean this thing feels like a 70s Buick, or maybe a newer Camry. Cushioned yes, not jarring, but little in the way of feedback and way too floaty. I ask him if the sport mode will stiffen up the suspension and he says no, its not an adjustable suspension.
> It was so soft I was actually getting a little seasick (between that and the size).


I really, really wanted an Atlas, and had been watching it's development from the CrossBlue concept through reality. I have always been a fan of VW/Audi products, and we currently have a GTI in the stable. I knew that my BMW X5 Diesel would be at the end of CPO warranty at the time of Atlas launch, and I thought it would be perfect timing. I was only considering the SEL Premium 4-motion. My X5 was really perfect for us - great engine, suspension, steering, brakes - things that are important to me. It had the 3rd row, and we did use it, but my kids were outgrowing it. And given the service history of my X5, I could not bear owning it any longer out of warranty.

So, the Atlas seemed to tick all the right boxes on paper (except I really wanted a diesel - those hopes were dashed, and I got past that), and I was a bit skeptical of the transverse/FWD-based powertrain arrangement - I have't liked the way most SUVs in that config drive. But, I figured that VW would do better than the others in the ride/handling/steering/braking department.

So, once they hit the dealers, I drove a few. It wasn't the engine that killed it for me, but it was the floaty, soft suspension and disconnected steering. I could not believe how much I hated the way it drove. It reminded me of our old Honda Odyssey minivan that we could only bear for 9 months. I also was disappointed in the cheap plastics on the lower doors and cargo area/third row sides. On the plastics, I do understand that it is designed/built to the base model price point - by for the SEL Premium at $50k, I would have hoped for some material upgrades.

The solution for me seems to be making the R-line include some tangible performance upgrades - better tuned suspension (adjustable shocks like in the GTI PP or R?), upgraded brakes, and stiffer bushings for more feedback. And, improve some of the interior trim in the top levels. Yes, the engine is somewhat under powered, but I think we will see a more powerful engine in the near future (again, this rig screams for a diesel, but alas...).

So, for grins I test drove a Dodge Durango R/T AWD. First off, I was impressed with the interior and the trim quality - soft touch side panels for the (roomy) 3rd row, carpeted side panels in the (large) cargo area, etc. And, it drove surprisingly well - not as buttoned down as the X5, but much more connected than the Atlas. I could also tell I was driving a longitudinal drivetrain/RWD-based config, which I prefer. The Durango/Grand Cherokee platform was developed alongside the Mercedes ML/GL from the time Chrysler and Daimler were in bed together - one of the few good things to come from that. And, the 5.7L V-8 makes all the right moves and noises. The $7k off sticker without even asking made it even more appealing.

So, even though I can't believe it, I now have a non-European vehicle in my garage. Time will tell if I continue to like it, and I will be watching the Atlas and may give it another look in the future.


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## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

danix_vw said:


> Hyundai, Kia: um no



Just curious, have you tried a Sorento or Sante Fe?


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

brbutler said:


> I really, really wanted an Atlas, and had been watching it's development from the CrossBlue concept through reality. I have always been a fan of VW/Audi products, and we currently have a GTI in the stable. I knew that my BMW X5 Diesel would be at the end of CPO warranty at the time of Atlas launch, and I thought it would be perfect timing. I was only considering the SEL Premium 4-motion. My X5 was really perfect for us - great engine, suspension, steering, brakes - things that are important to me. It had the 3rd row, and we did use it, but my kids were outgrowing it. And given the service history of my X5, I could not bear owning it any longer out of warranty.
> 
> So, the Atlas seemed to tick all the right boxes on paper (except I really wanted a diesel - those hopes were dashed, and I got past that), and I was a bit skeptical of the transverse/FWD-based powertrain arrangement - I have't liked the way most SUVs in that config drive. But, I figured that VW would do better than the others in the ride/handling/steering/braking department.
> 
> ...


In same boat, think unthinkable, to try Dodge Durango R/T! 


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## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

I haven't tried a Sorento or Santa Fe. I used to rent cars almost every week and the Kia sedan I had was disappointing. The Hyundais are very good Toyota clones at 80% of the price, but I stopped liking Toyotas around 1989 or so. The Sonata we rented last month was a nice car for people who don't care about cars, and had a huge back seat.

I have previously rented a Durango and was surprised that I liked it. Concerns there are Chrysler reliability, fit and finish, and if you're leasing, Chrysler Financial sucks (I currently have a Fiat lease through them). Still, I suppose I should check them out.

For around $35-40k it looks like I can get a CPO Audi Q7 or BMW X5. I know she'll like the X5 (I used to have a 335d that was great). Q7 I'm not sure - that 3.0 supercharged is thirsty, and I'd prefer the TDI but it seems you can't find those as CPO for some reason.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

danix_vw said:


> I haven't tried a Sorento or Santa Fe. I used to rent cars almost every week and the Kia sedan I had was disappointing. The Hyundais are very good Toyota clones at 80% of the price, but I stopped liking Toyotas around 1989 or so. The Sonata we rented last month was a nice car for people who don't care about cars, and had a huge back seat.
> 
> I have previously rented a Durango and was surprised that I liked it. Concerns there are Chrysler reliability, fit and finish, and if you're leasing, Chrysler Financial sucks (I currently have a Fiat lease through them). Still, I suppose I should check them out.
> 
> For around $35-40k it looks like I can get a CPO Audi Q7 or BMW X5. I know she'll like the X5 (I used to have a 335d that was great). Q7 I'm not sure - that 3.0 supercharged is thirsty, and I'd prefer the TDI but it seems you can't find those as CPO for some reason.


I tried Q7 when I was getting X5. It is definitely not engaging or fast as X5. 3.0T feels like it is struggling a bit, and that is expected, thing has 5.500lbs. Only engine that I think is suitable for 1st gen Q7 is TDI. I did not get it since I always preferred BMW's, and you know since you had 335d that that engine is monster. Thinking back, if I got Q7 I would not have now issues with size. 
Reason why you cannot find Q7 TDI is that they cheated on that engine too. All those vehicles are waiting fix, a d expect power to drop from 240hp to probably again to 225. Torque should stay same. 


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## jkopelc (Mar 1, 2017)

Just to add my opinion. X5 owner here. I AM switching away from X5 as I do not care for the stiff suspension.

Just goes to show everyone has different preferences and for me, the harsh ride - even over the smallest bumps is why I want something a little softer now.

I too travel for work and have driven almost everything out there as rentals. Durango, Sante Fe, Explorer etc. Each with pros and cons


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## der_apoteker (Mar 27, 2017)

We test-drove a 2017 Santa FE SE/ultimate before deciding on the Atlas. Going in, i hated the dash design and layout of the SantaFe but i have to admit that it worked once i was inside. Definately a better value than the Atlas as the model was slightly less $ than SE/Tech and had cooled seats, Pano roof and 360 degree camera. However, access to the third row was okay on the passenger side but dismal on the drivers side and once back there, it was like cannonball pose- plenty of knee room but the distance between the seat and floor felt like 6-8 inches at best. In the end, the Atlas won, because for our needs the third row access trumped the other features.


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## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

danix_vw said:


> I haven't tried a Sorento or Santa Fe. I used to rent cars almost every week and the Kia sedan I had was disappointing. The Hyundais are very good Toyota clones at 80% of the price, but I stopped liking Toyotas around 1989 or so. The Sonata we rented last month was a nice car for people who don't care about cars, and had a huge back seat.
> 
> I have previously rented a Durango and was surprised that I liked it. Concerns there are Chrysler reliability, fit and finish, and if you're leasing, Chrysler Financial sucks (I currently have a Fiat lease through them). Still, I suppose I should check them out.
> 
> For around $35-40k it looks like I can get a CPO Audi Q7 or BMW X5. I know she'll like the X5 (I used to have a 335d that was great). Q7 I'm not sure - that 3.0 supercharged is thirsty, and I'd prefer the TDI but it seems you can't find those as CPO for some reason.


I'd give em a go, I really liked the Sorento - if you don't need the third row. They've improved a lot since getting the former Audi designer.

If the VW dealer we go to wasn't so great we'd probably get one.


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## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

jkopelc said:


> Just to add my opinion. X5 owner here. I AM switching away from X5 as I do not care for the stiff suspension.
> 
> Just goes to show everyone has different preferences and for me, the harsh ride - even over the smallest bumps is why I want something a little softer now.
> 
> I too travel for work and have driven almost everything out there as rentals. Durango, Sante Fe, Explorer etc. Each with pros and cons


I hear ya. My back is looking forward to a softer ride.


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## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

Still having a frustrating search. Started looking at CPO Q7s for around the same price as an Atlas, but not sure the 3rd row works for my 11 year old.
The X5 is way too small back there, scratched it off the list.

I WANT to buy an Atlas, I WANT to like how it handles. I just don't, and there's not much else out there that handles well and has a decent 3rd row.


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## vw_service_advisor (Aug 10, 2017)

danix_vw said:


> there's not much else out there that handles well and has a decent 3rd row.


So true. That's why Im like the only person in the world that that liked station wagons with a third row and wishes they hadn't died off in the US 15 years ago lol


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

Check MB GL. It is not best handling SUV among Euro crowd but still it is well planted machine, plus you can get diesel. 


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## Szy_szka (Aug 26, 2010)

danix_vw said:


> I have previously rented a Durango and was surprised that I liked it. Concerns there are Chrysler reliability, fit and finish, and if you're leasing, Chrysler Financial sucks (I currently have a Fiat lease through them). Still, I suppose I should check them out.


Durango owner here! You definitely should check the Durango. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Very happy with the third row room; will certainly accommodate adults, if needed. Decent towing with towing package. Digital gauges in the center stack is a nice touch; for 2018 they finally (yes, Chrysler took their sweet time) offer Apple Carplay/Android Auto on the new versions of UConnect 7 (standard) and 8.4 (upgrade) systems. As for reliability, no issues to speak of. When shopping for the third row SUV (back in 2015) I also considered waiting for the Atlas (still in development back then) but ultimately decided it was not worth it. Seeing Atlas now I do not regret my decision to go with the Chrysler product.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

Szy_szka said:


> Durango owner here! You definitely should check the Durango. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Very happy with the third row room; will certainly accommodate adults, if needed. Decent towing with towing package. Digital gauges in the center stack is a nice touch; for 2018 they finally (yes, Chrysler took their sweet time) offer Apple Carplay/Android Auto on the new versions of UConnect 7 (standard) and 8.4 (upgrade) systems. As for reliability, no issues to speak of. When shopping for the third row SUV (back in 2015) I also considered waiting for the Atlas (still in development back then) but ultimately decided it was not worth it. Seeing Atlas now I do not regret my decision to go with the Chrysler product.


I just saw 2018 redesigned Durango. Holly hell, that is best looking SUV in segment. I am now definitely putting Durango in my sights. I tried once V6 version, and while engine is just ok, transmission is faster then in Atlas. 
It doesn't have third row space like Atlas, but IMO, better then Highlander. 
On top of that they offer V8. At least you know why it is guzzling fuel. 


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## Szy_szka (Aug 26, 2010)

edyvw said:


> I just saw 2018 redesigned Durango. Holly hell, that is best looking SUV in segment. I am now definitely putting Durango in my sights. I tried once V6 version, and while engine is just ok, transmission is faster then in Atlas. It doesn't have third row space like Atlas, but IMO, better then Highlander. On top of that they offer V8. At least you know why it is guzzling fuel.


... and then, here is this.... 

http://www.dodgedurango.net/forums/durango-discussions-2014/52698-bye-bye-durango.html

"The vehicle [Durango] that I loved so much I ended up hating more than any other vehicle I have ever owned. 2 Shift modules, 1 full tranny, 1 coil pack and tires wore out at just 26K miles. *Test drove a Volkswagon Atlas today*. *Hands down the best SUV I have driven and I have tested them all*. The 8 speed tranny in the Durango is an abortion in comparison to VW's 8 speed or GM;s 9 speed. Never owned a VW before but with a warranty of 6 years and 72K miles bumper to bumper I'll try it !!!"

So, here you have it! Two drastically different points of view! Good luck!


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## brbutler (Sep 15, 2011)

edyvw said:


> I just saw 2018 redesigned Durango. Holly hell, that is best looking SUV in segment. I am now definitely putting Durango in my sights. I tried once V6 version, and while engine is just ok, transmission is faster then in Atlas.
> It doesn't have third row space like Atlas, but IMO, better then Highlander.
> On top of that they offer V8. At least you know why it is guzzling fuel.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is good looking IMHO. 2018 is not a redesign, only real change is the Apple CarPlay, etc. mentioned above, and a new conventional shifter vs. the rotary shifter I have. It was facelifted to current design in 2014. The R/T with the V8 is the one to get, in my opinion - it's a different beast from the V6 models, slightly lower suspension, more buttoned down. I have been getting low 20's MPG on highway using cruise @ 78 MPH. That drops significantly around town, climbing - and horsing it - which is fun.


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## brbutler (Sep 15, 2011)

Szy_szka said:


> ... and then, here is this....
> 
> http://www.dodgedurango.net/forums/durango-discussions-2014/52698-bye-bye-durango.html
> 
> ...


Yes, this is the one thing about my Durango purchase that has me nervous - wondering if I will still like it after a year. Coming from a 2011 X5 Diesel that couldn't seem to go more than 5,000 miles without a CEL, my expectations are low . Despite that, I really liked the BMW for the way it drove.

Every VW/Audi vehicle I have had had, the shine never wore off, and I loved them into their old age - despite their occasional issues.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

Szy_szka said:


> ... and then, here is this....
> 
> http://www.dodgedurango.net/forums/durango-discussions-2014/52698-bye-bye-durango.html
> 
> ...


Durango transmission is THE SAME transmission that goes in Audi vehicles, BMW vehicles etc. It is ZF supplied! Can it fail? Sure, same like any other transmission. 
As for driving dynamics, one can have "feeling" however, Durango is RWD based vehicle with longitudinal engine. There is no transverse engine set up that can match that because of the thing call: laws of physics! On top of that Durango is based on MB ML and GL. Only thing in that vehicle that is actually American is engine, and even AWD is derived from Stayer.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

brbutler said:


> Yes, this is the one thing about my Durango purchase that has me nervous - wondering if I will still like it after a year. Coming from a 2011 X5 Diesel that couldn't seem to go more than 5,000 miles without a CEL, my expectations are low . Despite that, I really liked the BMW for the way it drove.
> 
> Every VW/Audi vehicle I have had had, the shine never wore off, and I loved them into their old age - despite their occasional issues.


I think I might wait for Audi Q7 3.0T prices to go down and just get CPO. It has bit more space then X5 E70, so might be good compromise. Something that when VW decided to give us this snail, counted on.


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## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

edyvw said:


> I think I might wait for Audi Q7 3.0T prices to go down and just get CPO. It has bit more space then X5 E70, so might be good compromise. Something that when VW decided to give us this snail, counted on.


I just flew to Dallas to buy a used Q7. When I got there it was not what I expected so I came home.
Then I bought a CPO Q7 at Niello in Sacramento. Got in and drove away, made it to the first light where I realized it had a huge chip right in the drivers field of vision. Drove back and they would not replace it, so I handed them the keys back and walked.

:banghead: I might have to drive the Atlas again or rent one for a day if I can.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

danix_vw said:


> I just flew to Dallas to buy a used Q7. When I got there it was not what I expected so I came home.
> Then I bought a CPO Q7 at Niello in Sacramento. Got in and drove away, made it to the first light where I realized it had a huge chip right in the drivers field of vision. Drove back and they would not replace it, so I handed them the keys back and walked.
> 
> :banghead: I might have to drive the Atlas again or rent one for a day if I can.


I went to check new Q7 few days ago and see is it worth waiting a bit for CPO. New Q7 is not any bigger then X5 and definitely is not planted on the road like X5, so I am skipping that. Plus, new one doesn't have spare tire, and for me that is a must. I am hauling spare in X5 trunk when ski, so no point to moving to same type of vehicle. 
I am leaning more and more on Dodge Durango R/T. Saw one few days ago (did not drive) and space in third row is really good+ real spare tire below. Considering reports on Atlas real world mpg, V8 in Durango might be on par with VR6 in Atlas. 


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## danix_vw (Aug 29, 2017)

Well, the saga has an ending! You might call it, planes, trains and automobiles.

Flew to Dallas to buy a used Q7, it had undisclosed damage. Flew home.

Took the train to Sacramento to buy a CPO Q7, bought it, and pulling away saw it had a chip in the windshield right in the field of vision. Dealer would not do anything to correct it, so I walked (not literally).
Flew to LA to buy another used Q7. This was the opposite of other CPO cars which all had scratches or damage, it was pristine. But I could tell it had been painted on both front fenders and the rear bumper cover.

So instead, I drove home with a new 2017 Q7 2.0T.

The new Q7 feels like the old one went on a diet. The 2.0T is far more satisfying than the 3.0 supercharged, which feels like it can barely move the Q7. I know, on paper it has more power, and maybe it moves the same, but it FEELS good.

I called my friend and explained all the above to him, especially the part about the 2.0T in the Q7. He said "so it sounds like you got the Atlas you were looking for". 

The suspension in the Atlas may still suck, but if you are considering one, wait and drive the 2.0T. If it's the same as in the Q7, you want this engine.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

danix_vw said:


> Well, the saga has an ending! You might call it, planes, trains and automobiles.
> 
> Flew to Dallas to buy a used Q7, it had undisclosed damage. Flew home.
> 
> ...


It is not same as in Q7. 
Q7 has 278lb-ft, Atlas has 258lb-ft and NO AWD! 
There is no reason why AWD and 2.0T in Atlas cannot go together, except that VW is trying to protect Audi. 


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