# Dyno Time!



## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

So I finally made it to the dyno with my car today. My motor is almost exactly the same as a stock ABF minus a couple of differences, but most of the specs are similar. 
ABA bottom end w/ ABF pistons @ stock bore.
1.8 16v head w/ mild P&P.
Autotech Sport cams.
TT heavy duty valve springs.
50mm manifold.
24lb. injectors @ 3.5bar.
Eurosport header w/ TT exhaust.
Running on Megasquirt from Patatron (I had to wait almost 2 months to get it of course.)
I have not dyno tuned this at all, this is just by seat of the pants and datalogging with Megalogviewer and playing with the spark advance. 

Put down 143 whp and 124.5 ft. lbs. of torque which is pretty close to the NGP dyno I saw with the stock ABF they dyno'd. I was hoping for more, but I think with these cams I'm limiting what else is possible. I'm in the process of putting together an ITB setup, so when I'm ready to put them on, I'll be going with some more aggresive cams and possibly some 36lb. injectors.
Here's the dyno plot.









Here's my current spark map that people have been asking about.








I had a video linked on here, but for some reason, it stopped working








_Modified by evil-e at 11:03 AM 8-19-2007_

_Modified by evil-e at 9:04 AM 8-24-2007_


_Modified by evil-e at 9:05 AM 8-24-2007_


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## mk3Wolfy (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*

was your car broken in ok? was your car fully warmed up before going into the dyno?
on a normal 16v block... would it be possible to get those numbers? the compression should almost be the same. 10:8.1 vs 10:5.1. 144mm rods vs 159mm rods.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (mk3Wolfy)*

Yes, the motor has been running since last Oct.
The motor was not fully warmed up, but not a cold motor.
Keep in mind this has not seen any dyno tuning and this is my first attempt at tuning any kind of standalone management. There's def. a little more power to unlock from this setup, I just don't want to explore the limits of it on the street. I'd much rather get it setup correctly on the dyno than make a mistake and damage the engine.
I'm sure those numbers are possible, but I seem to remember seeing alot of 120-130ish whp dyno's of 16v's around.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

do you have a wideband? would be nice to know what AFR you're running.
How much timing are you running at WOT?


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*

Do you have a corrected dyno plot to account for temperature / humidity. You should always post corrected figures.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (WolfGTI)*

No, that's the only graph they gave me. On the sheet, it says "Uncorrected". Would this have made the numbers lower or higher, or ????.
Yes, I'm running an LC-1 wideband and have the targets set for 13:1 at 100Kpa and running around 35 deg. timing at WOT.
_Modified by evil-e at 11:05 AM 8-19-2007_


_Modified by evil-e at 11:07 AM 8-19-2007_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*

can you post up your ignition map?
talking with john from matrix today at the track, he was saying how the 16v's tend to make more power with less ignition advance...he is making 142whp out of a cis motronic 1.8 16v http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (VWralley)*

I don't have the laptop hooked up to the internet right now, and have only been able to save a screen shot succesfully once. Maybe I should back it off a little? I have not had any detonation issues that could be heard and I've pulled the plugs after a WOT run to verify there wasn't any speckles on the plugs etc.
I looked up a couple of different correction factor calculators and punched in the numbers needed. Came up w/ a correction factor of .98, so the SAE corrected number for HP should be right @ 140 whp I think.


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## Fox-N-It (Jul 23, 2003)

From what i've heard/read/seen autotech and TT sport cams are very close if not copies of stock ABF cams.
Care to post you timing map? 
No AFR reading


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (Fox-N-It)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fox-N-It* »_From what i've heard/read/seen autotech and TT sport cams are very close if not copies of stock ABF cams.
Care to post you timing map? 
No AFR reading









Yeah, the Autotechs are supposed to be very close to the ABF cams.
I'll have to try and get the map off my laptop.
Yeah, I'm a little upset that there was no AFR and found out later that they ran all the dynos done today uncorrected







.
I guess for the money spent ($50) it was worth it for the 3 pulls. It was a dyno day, so they were trying to get cars on and off the rollers as quick as possible. Probably why no AFR?


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I come up with a CF of 0.986 using the calcs on http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_cf.htm and http://wahiduddin.net/calc/density_altitude.htm


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_I come up with a CF of 0.986 using the calcs on http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_cf.htm and http://wahiduddin.net/calc/density_altitude.htm

Yeah, that's the # I came up with too. So an uncorrected 143 should come up to around 140 right?


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## mjleamy (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: Dyno Time! (mk3Wolfy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk3Wolfy* »_
on a normal 16v block... would it be possible to get those numbers?

Mine is a 'normal' 16v and I get those numbers - well, less hp but more torque. My max hp on a Mustang dyno was 126 hp and my max torque was 134 ft-lbs.
My maps and dyno sheet are on this post:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3210730


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (mjleamy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mjleamy* »_
Mine is a 'normal' 16v and I get those numbers... dyno was 126 hp and my max torque was 134 ft-lbs.

Yours are 15whp lower, which I would say is a bit 'different'







Don't blame it on being a Mustang either, most shops calibrate them to read 'Dynojet' type numbers.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (need_a_VR6)*

Added my current spark table to the OP. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mjleamy (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: Dyno Time! (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Yours are 15whp lower, which I would say is a bit 'different'







Don't blame it on being a Mustang either, most shops calibrate them to read 'Dynojet' type numbers. 

Yes, but more torque


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (mjleamy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mjleamy* »_
Yes, but more torque









Which intake manifold are you using? 40mm or 42mm? I'm sure using the 50mm manifold has hurt my torque a little.


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## mjleamy (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*

Stock 9a. I don't know.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (mjleamy)*

Should be a 42mm then and from what I've read the 40 and 42mm intakes do make more torque than the 50mm.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Dyno Time! (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_can you post up your ignition map?
talking with john from matrix today at the track, he was saying how the 16v's tend to make more power with less ignition advance...he is making 142whp out of a cis motronic 1.8 16v http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Give the man a prize! Every 16v I've dyno tuned has made max power at 26-27* total advance. Any more than that didn't help. I've seen the factory timing map for the 16v, and even VW stopped at 26* at WOT. I tuned my own ABA16vT (sold







) on the dyno, started at 20* and moved up from there. It made less power at 30* than it did at 27*, with plenty of cooldown time between runs.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Dyno Time! (B4S)*

Found the map I was talking about







.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (B4S)*

It has always been my belief, based on my personal experience, that the above map is missing the 6deg static added at the distro. The above is only the advance given by the knock box itself.
A bone stock true ABF runs great at 32deg total on 93.


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

My stock 9a stopped making power at 26ish degrees total, on 91 octane. My distro / timing setup may not be absolutely perfect though. I think my map has like 27 degrees in the very highest cells. 
Plus 91 octane isn't all that great lol. 
I'd suspect I could get away with a little more timing with hotter cams (anything other then stock?)... 37 seems like a lot to me though. This ain't no 911 / subaru with 100mm bores.










_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 8:39 AM 8-20-2007_


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Dyno Time! (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_It has always been my belief, based on my personal experience, that the above map is missing the 6deg static added at the distro. The above is only the advance given by the knock box itself.
A bone stock true ABF runs great at 32deg total on 93.

But then, according to the map, it would be 12deg at idle? Perhaps the redesigned ABF head/cams/etc allow it to run a bit more timing, efficiently. Every 16v I've ever worked on/tuned has plateaued at the same point.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_It has always been my belief, based on my personal experience, that the above map is missing the 6deg static added at the distro. The above is only the advance given by the knock box itself.
A bone stock true ABF runs great at 32deg total on 93.

Also worth mentioning that I don't have a "static advance" setting since I'm running directly off the crank sensor. If that is true about the static 6 deg. of advance not being included in the Scirocco map, then I'm actually not that far off.


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_It has always been my belief, based on my personal experience, that the above map is missing the 6deg static added at the distro.

Not that I'm any expert but I suspect the same.

_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_If that is true about the static 6 deg. of advance not being included in the Scirocco map, then I'm actually not that far off. 

Advance at WOT would be 30° if you add the 6° static.
I think in relative terms 5° additional at WOT is pretty much judging from a recent dyno tuning session.
I'd back it off to 30° at WOT (smoothing the rest of the map to match, of course) with maybe a couple ° extra near redline.
The only way to really dial it in though is to dyno tune it.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (J. Daniel)*

I'd love to dyno tune it, but this was just a "dyno day" $50.00 deal to see where I was at right now. I also haven't found anyone around the Portland, OR area who wants to dyno tune or has experience w/ dyno tuning MS, soooo...
Seems like with the 6 deg. static taken out, my advance at WOT would be closer to 29-30 deg already, or am I wrong???
I don't plan on backing it off at all anyway. Even on 90 deg. + ambient temps, I still have no knock/pinging, so I don't see a reason to back it off.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*

i wouldnt until you get back on the dyno for some time, the only reason to do so was IF it does make more power


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (VWralley)*

If it feels good it must be close. Until you dyno tune it, leave it.


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## redGTInj (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: Dyno Time! (need_a_VR6)*

is it me or the is the video not working anymore???


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (redGTInj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redGTInj* »_is it me or the is the video not working anymore???









Yeah, I need to figure that out


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_I'd love to dyno tune it, but this was just a "dyno day" $50.00 deal to see where I was at right now. I also haven't found anyone around the Portland, OR area who wants to dyno tune or has experience w/ dyno tuning MS, soooo...
Seems like with the 6 deg. static taken out, my advance at WOT would be closer to 29-30 deg already, or am I wrong???
I don't plan on backing it off at all anyway. Even on 90 deg. + ambient temps, I still have no knock/pinging, so I don't see a reason to back it off. 









Um...just because you are not pinging, doesn't mean you are making power. Many cars run 40-45* advance under cruising conditions and not ping, but they don't make much power with that advance. 
I still think that if you bring it back to below 30 you'll see more power, mainly because the spark is happening at the best point for power. A car is likely to ping most at the torque peak, so if you are running massive timing at top end, it won't ping...but your power could be better.


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_I still think that if you bring it back to below 30 you'll see more power, mainly because the spark is happening at the best point for power. 

I agree.
I think the common conception is since advance is limited by detonation on a forced induction car that we should always try to set the advance just short of detonation for best power in all situations.
This is not necessarily true especially for a normally aspirated car.
Most people here with 16V experience seem to think 36° at WOT is too much.
Considering it'll take you all of 5 minutes to adjust your map and get a butt dyno reading what have you got to loose?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (J. Daniel)*

I like the number 32 better, but that's just me. Stock ABF = 32deg total. 12:1 20v = 32 deg total (dyno tuned). I see a theme.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_
Um...just because you are not pinging, doesn't mean you are making power. Many cars run 40-45* advance under cruising conditions and not ping, but they don't make much power with that advance. 
I still think that if you bring it back to below 30 you'll see more power, mainly because the spark is happening at the best point for power. A car is likely to ping most at the torque peak, so if you are running massive timing at top end, it won't ping...but your power could be better.

I'm not arguing with anyone's experience w/ the 16V as myself, I really don't have that much. I'm just not clear on the advance settings here.
If I'm running without a dist. and my timing is set with the spark map, there is no "static" advance right? If there's no "static" 6 deg. then wouldn't my timing at WOT actually be closer to 29 deg.??? I'm not questioning anyones knowledge here, I'm just looking for an answer to this.


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*

As need-a-VR6 suggested the stock 16V spark table is probably only the knock box advance and should probably have the static advance added to it for total advance.
When you installed your MS you should have set the "fixed advance" to a number other than -10 and then adjusted your trigger angle so the actual advance measured with a timing light matched the fixed advance number entered in MS.
If that was done correctly then the numbers in your advance table will be total advance. You will not need to add or substract anything from the table values for actual advance.
HTH.
Dan


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (J. Daniel)*

The fixed angle is set @ -10 deg. When I checked the timing at idle with a timing light, at that time, my idle advance was set to 10 deg. and I was seeing 10 deg. on the flywheel with the timing light.
I used a base map provided with my ecu for a 1.8t to get the engine fired up using the crank sensor trigger settings. Should the fixed angle be set to something different?


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_The fixed angle is set @ -10 deg. When I checked the timing at idle with a timing light, at that time, my idle advance was set to 10 deg. and I was seeing 10 deg. on the flywheel with the timing light.

So, the fixed angle was set to 10° and the timing checked out at 10 with the timing light. Then your actual timing should match your table.

_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_I used a base map provided with my ecu for a 1.8t to get the engine fired up using the crank sensor trigger settings. Should the fixed angle be set to something different?









As far as I know the ABA and 1.8T crank sensors should use the same settings.
I was just saying that if the actual timing didn't match the fixed timing, then you'd adjust the trigger angles (IIRC) to get them to match.
Sounds like you're good.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (J. Daniel)*

Thanks guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
I'll try the "butt dyno" with the advance set to 32 deg. @ WOT and see what it feels like.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *evil-e* »_When I checked the timing at idle with a timing light, at that time, my idle advance was set to 10 deg. and I was seeing 10 deg. on the flywheel with the timing light.


That will work also, but setting it with 'fixed angle' just locks the timing in, period. Sometimes idle timing can chance slightly due to idle map variation and interpolation. Though if yours said 10 and didn't waiver, it's probably spot on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## redGTInj (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: Dyno Time! (need_a_VR6)*

good stuff here http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Though if yours said 10 and didn't waiver, it's probably spot on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

what exactly is happening when the timing is waivering around??


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (redGTInj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redGTInj* »_
what exactly is happening when the timing is waivering around?? 


Depends, if you put in a 'fixed value' and it moves it's a mechanical problem (or noise) with the hall/VR/Distro, etc. 
If the timing gauge is moving around a little it's most likey due to slight MAP(pressure) and rpm variation causing some interpolation in cells adjacent to the idle bin. There is a feature for locking timing at idle somewhere in MT now, though I've never had to use it.


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: Dyno Time! (need_a_VR6)*

Well just a little update and a "Thank You" to all who made helpful suggestions on the spark map settings. I backed the timing off down to 30 and scaled the rest back down to the cruise area as well. All I can say is I wish I had my spark map set like I do right now when I dyno'd it! I think I'm going to leave it around 30ish and call it good until I can find somewhere to dyno tune it.
Thanks again http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Dyno Time! (evil-e)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## L33t A2 (Aug 5, 2003)

_Quote »_









I converted this using averages a while back


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (L33t A2)*

I'll try and get my current spark map up as well as my current VE map. 
beer:


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (evil-e)*

much appreciated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif finally getting into tweaking mine, it'd be nice to try out dyno tuned ign map








car was lookin good at pac. waterland, i sent acouple people over to check out your setup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

Thanks man, I didn't see you out there. I was looking for your Rabbit... 
My spark map isn't dyno tuned, but seems to be working pretty well for me now. Still haven't loaded the pics to my photobucket account of the maps/settings yet though.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (evil-e)*

i didnt roll my car down, my insurance expired two days before the weekend an i didnt find that out till sat








i was with the group behind your row, the one with the random assortment of rides. there was an orange bagged squareback, and the panama brown 16v bunny 
i meant to get over and shoot the sh*t with ya, i was actually hangin around while you were talking with some guy i was gonna see if i could borrow your db-9 cable for a min







was workin on this car, he grounded his alt wire and geeked the ecu 










_Modified by VWralley at 10:59 AM 8-31-2007_


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