# Starter doesn't turn. Couple of questions. (Have consulted Bently)



## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Alright, so I went to start my car after it sat for about a month. But when I go to crank it over, it doesn't crank. Battery's good and has full charge. 
So I ran a jump wire to terminal 50 straight from the battery and the starter turns over and starts the engine. Now in the Bently it said replace the starter solenoid but before I buy one, I'd just like to make sure that's the real problem and not waste time/money. 
I have replaced the ignition switch earlier this summer, but never know. My Rabbit has had a problem where the engine will only run if the starter is engaged, which is why I bought a new ignition switch. But even after I replaced the switch, the problem still persisted. That problem comes and goes. Could both problems be the ignition coil?

Any input is appreciated! Thanks. 

Alex


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

if jumping the starter causes it to crank, then your starter/solenoid are fine.

it indeed sounds like a problem with your ignition switch still. you can pull the plug off it and jump the pins with some wire and see if it'll engage the starter.

or to rule it out more directly, unplug the wire to the solenoid (there should be one wire coming from the ignition switch, and one going to the tts/csv circuit). hook that up to a voltmeter with ground, and see if you get 12v when you crank to the start position.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Alright. I'll have to try that when I get back home next weekend. 
So, if the voltometer doesn't read 12v, then it's the ignition switch?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

aeffertz said:


> So, if the voltometer doesn't read 12v, then it's the ignition switch?


 Maybe, it does not have to be the ignition switch itself, but something from the switch to the starter. Maybe a bad or corroded connection, broken wire or connection which just fell or was knocked off, who knows. But as stated, if using a jumpre from the battery to the starter causes it to operate normal, the solenoid if fine. I think maybe you understood or mis-read the repair manual as I can't see why it would suggest that by doing what you did the solenoid needs to be replaced, but there are mistakes in the manual.


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## JettaConA-G60 (Jan 30, 2006)

could be the relay. and just for clarification you jumped battery voltage to the single connector that has a blue wire from it correct or did you jump the solenoid too?


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

I took a wire from the battery and put the other end on terminal 50 of the starter solenoid. I don't remember the color, but I want to say it was red/black.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Another thing I've noticed is that sometimes when I go to start the car, I lose all power- the dash lights go out and the clock even stops. If I turn the key back and then forward they will turn back on (sometimes).


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Okay, I did read the Bently wrong. It says to replace the solenoid if it clicks when I turn the key, but ut doesn't. So I read the next one and it says to run a jumper from terminal 30 to terminal 50 on the starter and if it operates, then one of the wires is bad. 
My question is where is this terminal 30? In the Bently it shows a terminal for battery cable, terminal 15a for wire to ignition coil, terminal 50 for start wire from ignition switch, and terminal for field winding connecting strap (?). So where's terminal 30 at? Do they mean 15a?


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Terminal 30 and Terminal 50 (black and red wire that goes from the ignition switch to the solenoid) are both in the ignition switch connector. You could possibly have a bad connection at that connector check to see that the wires are all firmly seated in the connector. I'd also check the continuity of those two wires. I don't have a wiring diagram handy for your specific car but know from experience that Circuit 30 is the main power circuit into the ignition switch. That circuit comes from the fuse and relay panel and it should always have 12V DC power. 

Because you have a '79 Rabbit -- if you replaced the ignition switch (PN 171 905 865) with a new one (not used) and have checked the continuity of the wiring to and from the switch plus have experienced other electrical issues as you report in a post above I would consider replacing the fuse and relay panel. (Around $100 new.) The Rabbits of that era had a failure prone fuse and relay panel. For that reason and the fact that most Rabbits were scrapped out years ago in our area they are hard to find in local junkyards although you might try Kadingers the Chippewa area. If you replaced the ignition switch with a used switch I would replace the switch with a new one. The Part Numbers for the fuse box should be 171 941 821B (US Built) and 171 941 821C (Except USA). FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Awesome man, thanks for the reply! 
This weekend I plan on pulling the fuse panel and checking the G and H connections. I'll pull the ignition switch again too to double check it's plugged in tight. It's a new switch, not used. 
Figured I'd need a new fuse panel.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

K guys. In the car right now. I've figured out the total power loss issue. The clip for the H4 connector fits very loosely on the post. I cleaned and bent the clip and it fits tight. 
Still no power to the starter, though. The fuse box doesn't look like it has any corrosion on it, either.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

have you tried unplugging the ignition switch and jumping the pins directly yet


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## Breadfan5968 (Mar 25, 2007)

Sorry if I'm not using all the right terms, I'm Dutch, but have had this same problem too, and didn't really find a sollution to it, eventhough the car is starting just fine (for) now again... 

Did you measure the resistance through the wire between the contact and the starter? Should be 0. So unplug the little starter-block at the rear of your key-contact-housing-thingy, and put one end of the meter on there, the other end on the trigger-cable on the starter, and see if the resistance is 0. Also check Amperes and Volts through the full length of that cable while you're at it. The cable should have 0v on it with the key in normal position or out, and about 12-14v (depending on your battery) with the key in starting position. 

Is your starter-relais on the fusebox making the clicking sound? If not, replace it. And is the fuse still ok? 

Is the bendix still popping out, or is it stuck? Cause if it's not popping out correctly, the starter won't let the little axle turn either on most cars. 

Do you have a leak below the left bottom corner of your window? Sometimes water goes through there and into the fusebox. Check the carpet for wet spots too after it has rained. 

Are all your ground wires in order?


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

sounds like the OP is able to jump the starter by connecting 12v direct to the solenoid, so the starter and solenoid are fine.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

ziddey said:


> have you tried unplugging the ignition switch and jumping the pins directly yet


 I have, but didn't exactly know what I was doing and nothing happened. Will I need to have a wire going into every clip? 

The top clip and left clip are terminals 50 and 30. 









To answer the other questions, the fuse box may have gotten wet. There is a hole in the drivers A pillar, and the carpet does have a couple wet spots. I don't see any corrosion on the outside but maybe the inside is bad. The starter relay does click when I turn the key.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

that's not so much a starter relay as it is a load reduction relay, to kill your headlights etc while cranking.

that's a good sign. problem now though is it may have just ruled out the ignition switch. so... you'll need to trace the wire from the starter solenoid back.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

Make sure the car is in neutral -- parking brake on or wheels chocked and jumper the 30 and 50 terminals. 30 should have 12V DC power all of the time through the fuse and relay panel. Terminal 50 should kick in the starter through the solenoid. It connects to the smaller red and black wire at the starter solenoid. It would be most helpful if you had a multimeter or 12V DC Test light to check for 12V DC power at 30. 

Any water in the fuse/relay box area is bad. I think that I mentioned before that the Rabbits had an issue with water following the radio antenna cable into the fuse/relay box area. In addition, I used spray foam insulation to plug the hole that rusted in my panel. The "under the windshield" leak mentioned above is another possibility. I have also had leaks through the firewall where cables passed through -- especially when the drains plugged in the trough under the hood. So you have a few places to inspect to find the water source. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks again guys. I did run a jumper wire from 30 to 50 on the ignition switch plug, but got nothing. I checked both connectors (G3 and G7 I believe) and both were clean and snug. I had a voltage tester but it must've fried or something because I could grt that to work, so I never got around to throwing one on there.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

You can buy a mulitmeter at Menards, Sears or Harbor Freight for less than $15. You should own one if you plan to work on your VW. See if your present tester has a battery -- it might have gone bad. If not see if the (12V) lamp in it needs replacing. My old home-made tester is simply a marker lamp that I attached a couple of wires and alligator clips to. But these days digital multimeters are cheap enough so I wouldn't bother building a test lamp if you have to buy any of the parts. 

You need to see if you have 12V DC to Terminal 30 at the switch. If not you need to start at the fuse and relay panel to find out why not. See if Terminal H has power and then work from there.
It wouldn't be unusual to find a short in the fuse and relay panel. There is a printed circuit in there that fails easily when wet. During the time I was trying to keep my 80 Rabbit alive I went through several fuse and relay panels. I had to disassemble them to find the damage to the circuits inside. If you do have 12V DC at Terminal 30 you need to check the continuity of the black and red terminal 50 wire to see if that wire is broken internally. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the reply!
I've chceked the fuse and battery in my multimeter but it just doesn't work. I'll just pick up a new one this week.
I'll follow your steps this weekend and let you know what I figure out. :thumbup:


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Hey guys,
I finally got around to working on this again. I've purchased a new fuse panel and got that put in but the problem still persists. 

I have power to all clips on the ignition switch when the key is turned to start. I have power to terminal 15a on the starter, but no power to terminal 50 (black and red wire) on the starter. So this means that the black and red wire is cut somewhere from the starter to the ignition switch?


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

I figured I'd go back out and try to follow that wire but I didn't get too far. I checked out the Bentley and it shows there is some sort of wire connector along the wire from the ign. switch to the starter solenoid. Seems like a logical place to check first.










Only problem is that I can't seem to find the connector nor do I have any idea what it looks like! lol I have the whole instrument panel torn out but don't know what I'm looking for, or if I'm even looking in the right place. Anyone have a picture of what these connectors look like or where they're located?

Thanks in advance,

Alex.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

The only place I have seen a connector shown like that one is on a Golf 1 (Rabbit) with a carburetor. I have no diagrams for fuel injected "Rabbits" prior to about 83' so I can't look any deeper. The connector that I have seen is labeled "T2d" but your connector has no label. In fact it really seems odd for it to have a double connector then a single connector as it could have been branched off at the single connector (often done). T2d is located behind the relay panel. I would say to begin at the starter switch and follow the wire. It will run down the steering column and over to the relay panel then through the firewall with other wires. If that connector exists it should be somewhere along that stretch. 

What I find odd or not right is something else you said. *"I have power to all clips on the ignition switch when the key is turned to start. I have power to terminal 15a on the starter, but no power to terminal 50 (black and red wire) on the starter.*

First you should not have power at the X contact when the key is turned to start. You should only see power there when the key is in the RUN position. And 15a should not be live unless the starter is activated. 15a recieves the battery power from the large connection that leads to the battery and alternator. In the solenoid is a disc which makes contact with both the battery power terminal and 15a when the starter drive gear moves. So power at 15a when the starter is not active would mean there is a short in the solenoid.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

One of the issues with wiring diagrams is that you often have no idea of how long the wires are or exactly where the interconnecting terminals are. Sometimes manuals will tell you the location of terminals -- sometimes not. It is interesting that none of your terminals in question are numbered as to actual location. Curcuit 50 splits and heads off left (on a different wiring diagram page) to the starter and it also heads to the thermo-time switch and cold start injector off the page to the bottom. 

Sometimes the interconnections are actual spade terminal connections and sometimes they are crimp connections. In some cases the connecting terminals are internal to the wiring harness especially with crimp connections (which are prone to corrosion failure). In that case you need to cut open the harness sheath to locate the terminals. I have had to do a lot of rewiring over the years that has involved opening the harness and then retaping it (or covering it with corrugated plastic tubing). Sometimes it is better to find a decent harnesses in a junkyard and replace the whole harness.

Having said all of that I would look for the wiring break in the engine compartment harness -- you should be able to see the wires for the thermal time switch and CS injector come out of the harness and go to those things. You should also be able to find where the red and black circuit 50 wires comes from the harness to the starter solenoid. Open the harness covering and search internal to the harness to find where those wires interconnect. My thought is that you will find a failed crimp connection in the harness. Also, once you have located the harness connection check for power at that location because it is possible that the Circuit 50 red and black wire broke prior to there.

Of course the other possibility is that Circuit 50 is not being powered through the electrical part of the key switch. So I would again (you say that all of the "clips" have power at the switch) assure that Circuit 50 is powered from the switch by re-checking it with a multimeter before messing with the harness. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Man, I really appreciate all the help. I only had one of those simple testers, that light up if it has power. So maybe it's not sending enough out? Just about to head to the hardware store and see what kind of multimeters they have there. 

As far as all the terminals having power on the ign. Switch when the key is turned to "start", I guess I only checked 50, because they all had power when it was switched to run (other than 50). I'll double check that, too. But when I had the key turned to "start", terminal 15a on the starter solenoid made the test light show up. Once again, if I can find a multimeter I'll check all the voltages at those locations.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Look what I just got!










Going back out to garage now to see what I come up with.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

I think that you told me at one point that your '79 Rabbit was the Deluxe model. In that model the wire -- which is white and red -- goes from the ignition switch through a relay -- the Seat Belt/Starter Lock-Out Relay. The wiring diagram you posted a copy of is for the Custom and Basic models which don't have that relay. If I read the Deluxe diagram correctly, the seat belt has to be connected for the relay to close and allow the car to start. That could also be accomplished by jumpering terminals "C" and 50 at the relay board. If that relay is missing or defective the car would not start and you would not have power to Terminal 50 at the starter. Since your wiring is a mess from the pictures you posted, that relay may not even be there. Anyway, it is worth considering. 

Also -- for clarification -- I see that all models Have a red and white wire from the ignition switch to either a connector (basic and custom) or to the relay (Deluxe).

There are a lot of places where you can obtain a digital multimeter for under $20. The Wal-Mart and Farm and Fleet in Lake Hallie would both be close as would Gordy's True Value right in Chippewa. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the reply.
I just got in from testing all the wires. All the terminals on the ignition switch read ~14V, the ignition solenoid terminals all read ~14V, terminals 30 and 15a on the starter read ~14V, but terminal 50 on the starter only reads about ~3V.
About the Delux model, I'm not positive. I always thought it was just a basic model. The badge on the back just says Rabbit. Would running the VIN on one of those decoders inform me?

EDIT: VIN decoder didn't say anything about it.
I'll run out there and see where the red/white wire runs to from the ign. switch.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Well look what I found.


















So, it indeed should have a relay, but it has a jumper running across. Now, the jumper only goes from the red/white wire to the red/black wire. It doesn't touch the other wire that's in that socket.
When I put the multimeter on the red/white wire right where it goes into the socket, there's ~14V, but if I touch the red/black wire right where it comes out of the socket, I get practically nothing. Is it because of the other wire that's not hooked to anything? Or is it the jumper instead?

I'm going to go out and pull the wires from the socket and touch them together to see if that'll trigger the starter.


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Great news! I pulled that jumper out, and it was really corroded. Took a wire brush to it and cleaned it up. Put it back in and she turns over!
Now the only holding me up is the makeshift wiring for the fuel pump. 









Its all hooked up like it was with the old fuse box, except for the red wire that was "screwed to the H2 terminal" you can see it has a different end on it. Where did this red wire normally run too?


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

It looks like you are finding stuff. The relay that belongs there is likely 171 919 437A. The one I have in my hand says "Interlock-Warn-Zeitrelais" and has that PN. It is a double wide relay -- about 3 inches wide. I see the white with red wire and a large red wire in about the positions where terminal "C" and Terminal 50 should be. Sounds to me like the jumper is bad. The other (brown and white) wire goes to the safety belt lock switches. It looks to me like a home made jumper as it looks like it was cut out of a beer can. That relay is expensive $60-80 or so new so it wouldn't surprise me if someone jumpered those terminals. It is also possible that VW used the same wiring set-up for the Basic and Custom models as for the Deluxe and instead of the expensive relay just jumpered the terminals to neuter the interlock system. You seem to have a relay in place where the other part of 171 919 437A would go. I don't recall seeing that relay your other posted picture of that area. It is also possible that eventually two relays were used in place of the one. None of those scenarios would surprise me with VW or previous owners. 

The other side of the large relay has terminals 86 (green and yellow), 15 (black), 85 (red and black) 31 (brown) clockwise around the relay and in the center "L" (yellow and red). 

In any case I think you found the blockage -- personally I would simply try a different jumper. The new multimeter looks great. You will find it handy to sort out the wiring. FR

I see your last post -- problem resolved! Good work. You will have to sort out the FP wiring. Let me know if you need help. FR


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## aeffertz (Dec 7, 2009)

Yeah, this multimeter is deffinetly the cas meow. Would've saved me a lot of hassle and money if I would've just used one from the get go. I hooked the fuel pump wiring like the PO had it set up before riser if it would start up. It did! So I'll get a new clip that goes over that H2 terminal and solder it to that red wire, rather than drilling and tapping that terminal for that. 

I can't thank you enough FR for all the help! I'm sure my car would still be buried in the snow if it weren't for you! If you want, I can send you a few bucks. Let me know. 

Thanks again! Hopefully someone that has a similar problem finds this thread.


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## Fat Rabbit (Nov 18, 2001)

I remember doing some jumpering in the back of the fuse and relay panel with my Rabbit to bypass bad parts in the fuse and relay panel when I couldn't find a replacement panel. Maybe the red wire sends power to that portion of the "A" connector to bypass a bad printed circuit in the fuse and relay panel. If I did those things so did others. After 15 years or so I can't remember what exactly I did but do remember taking such measures to keep the car running. 

I guess what i am saying is that with a new fuse and relay panel that bit of wiring may not be needed. I don't see any red wires connecting to the "A" pin connection at all in the wiring diagram. FR


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