# Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6



## vwventovr6 (Nov 9, 2001)

I've been reading about the various brake upgrades available for the VR6. Now I realize that the 12.3" TT brakes are the most popular upgrade around and deliver excellent braking but I would like to keep my 15" wheels (OEM BBS) on the car (plus I would hate to have to get 16" steels for the winter).
I'm currently running the OEM 11" brakes. I realize that given the criteria, I should upgrade to the 11.3" DE brakes as they offer a substantial increase in rotor surface area as well as a larger caliper piston. 
Although that seems like the way to go, I been looking into the possibility of using the Girling G60 dual piston caliper in conjunction with either the 11" rotor or the 11.3" rotor. I've ran searches on the Girling calipers but haven't found an answer in regards to their use on VR6s.
BBM is the only place where I've seen a kit avaliable for the VR6 (93-99), and so I can only assume that they will fit both the 11" and 11.3" rotors. I recall that Autotech used to have a kit avaliable (saw it in an old issue of EC) but I failed to see in on their site.
Any thoughts?


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## vwventovr6 (Nov 9, 2001)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

No one is running these beauties...


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## Djazair (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

There's always the 11.0" Wilwood 4 piston setup...


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## bxr140 (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Any thoughts? [HR][/HR]​what exactly are you looking for in a brake "upgrade"? is there any particular negative performance issue that you've encountered with your current components?
the best bang for the buck upgrade you can make (assuming you have decent tires) is to get high quality brake pads, and flush your fluid with a high quality (high boiling point) brake fluid. lucky for you, thats also the best peformance upgrade you can make as well. it might not be the coolest from an aestetic standpoint, but if you can handle the kids in the A4's making fun of your "small" brakes, my reccomendation is to stick with the stock sizes. 
remember, bigger isnt always better. in the case of the DE upgrade (and the g60 calipers) you are SIGNIFICANTLY increasing unsprung mass in the caliper, which will noticilby degrade your handling and braking performance over roads that aren't smooth. side by side, the DE calipers are MUCH larger and MUCH heavier than the 11" calipers...
FYI, i drive a 92 SLC, with the same brake system, and probably clsoe to the same vehicle weight as you. i run porterfield pads and superble fluid on otherwise bone stock, and (except for the rotors) 'from the factory' components, and have excessive stopping "power" available 100% of the time, and i do not experience fade.


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## vwventovr6 (Nov 9, 2001)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (bxr140)*

Thanks for the very informative reply....
The problem that I find is that the amount of stopping power has decreased and I guess conversely brake fade sets in quiet quickly. Its been a gradual decline in performance and I guess that can be linked to the wear and tear on the existing set up.
Seeing that 96.5 and up vehicles got a brake upgrade, I figured that our vehicles were lacking in this department. I heard so many good things about the DE conversion, I figured how could I not do the upgrade.
The idea of the G60 calipers was nice in that it seems to be step above the the DE, bigger caliper and bigger pads.
I find it hard to believe that the addition of 5-6lbs on each side could affect handling so much. How does the increase in unsprung weight affect handling? How does braking performance over bumpy roads decrease with the addition of weight?
BTW - I'm definitely not afraid of the Mk4 guys running around with huge brakes...


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## bxr140 (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

> The problem that I find is that the amount of stopping power has decreased and I guess conversely brake fade sets in quiet 
> quickly. Its been a gradual decline in performance and I guess that can be linked to the wear and tear on the existing set up.
very likely. what kinds of pads are you using, what kind of fluid are you using, and how old are they? its very likely that ANY brake work you do, even if you use new OEM parts, will make a very noticible difference. this is the problem with virtually ALL of the "reviews" you hear about for ANY sort of "upgrade", especially with brakes. you simply can't compare an old, worn out setup to *anything*, because practically *everything* you might change will have a positive effect. 
> Seeing that 96.5 and up vehicles got a brake upgrade, I figured that our vehicles were lacking in this department.
yeah, but the vehicles also were getting progressively heavier too... also, weren't the B4 passats already running those brakes? It could have just as easily been a marketing descision to only produce the 11.3" brake setup, rather than an 11" and an 11.3" setup. in fact, thats where i'm placing my bet. 
forgive my cynicism and ranting for a bit...but VW is a for-profit company, and their main goal is to make more money. one way to do that is to reduce overhead. i'm sure VW did NOT make the decsision to go to 11.3's on the A3's because they required better braking, because they didn't need the upgrade, and the marjority of the customers DEFINATELY did not need any upgrade. of course, they MARKETED it as an upgrade at first (remember the red paint?), as its basically presented a 'free' opportunity to appeal to the enthusiast minority...its kinda the same thing with the the 337's brakes... and as well all know, entuisiast/performance marketing (even when it in itself is not money making) eventually trickles down through a manufacturer's entire linup. NSX anyone?
> I heard so many good things about the DE conversion, I figured how could I not do the upgrade.
where have you heard good things about the DE conversion? not saying its an absoulutely BAD upgrade, I'm just curious who "they" are. 
> The idea of the G60 calipers was nice in that it seems to be step above the the DE, bigger caliper and bigger pads.
in theory, yeah. the reason you upgrade calipers though is to increase the caliper output (clamping force, or however you would like to describe it), and its quite apparent that the DE calipers are more than adequate..unless i'm mistaken, even the TT/337 12.3" brakes use the same caliper. in other words, any more potential caliper output you might have from the G60's is useless, because thats not the weak link. 
furthermore, the problem with the g60 calipers is you still have a floating caliper, not to mention the fact that youre dragging around even more weight than the DE's. also, i THINK their pistons are all the same size (don't know for sure though) which is not the best thing in a multi-pistoned caliper. if you are going to upgrade the caliper, your money is best spent (from a performance standpoint at least) on a lightweight and fixed caliper. wilwood, stop-tech, etc. 
> I find it hard to believe that the addition of 5-6lbs on each side could affect handling so much. How does the increase
> in unsprung weight affect handling? How does braking performance over bumpy roads decrease with the addition of weight?
well, don't get me wrong..."so much" is totally a relative and subjective thing, and depending on the driving you do, you may not even notice anything at all. that said, if you don't notice anything at all from the extra mass, you DEFINATELY don't need to upgrade the brakes in the first place...
when you have more unsprung mass, the suspension has to move that much more "stuff" up and down. just as it takes more effort to speed up, slow down, and change the direction of a heavier car over a lighter car, it takes more time to do the same for the suspension. so when you translate everything over in an "all else equal" scenario, your suspension reacts slower/sluggishly if its heavier. on a TOTALLY smooth road, that won't really matter, as most of the suspension movements are relatively slow. however, very few stretches of road exist in the world...hell, even racetracks are bumpy--ESPECIALLY in braking zones and turns. 
so the slower reaction of the suspension leads to less consistent tire compliance (the contact patch will be changing size more frequently and to a greater extent) as you ride over all the little bumps and ripples. if you try to exert any non-normal forces on the tires (like turning or braking or even accellerating to a much lesser degree) that reduced tire compliance will cause the tires to slip and slide sooner and more often than "before". the tire loses adhesion sooner and more often, and thats bad. 
the only way to bring the compliance back up to normal is to increase the force at which the suspension gets pushed into the ground...in other words, you increase your spring rates. that, of course, presents its own set of problems (and of crouse, some advantages as well), but we'll save that for another day.


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Thanks for the very informative reply....
The problem that I find is that the amount of stopping power has decreased and I guess conversely brake fade sets in quiet quickly. Its been a gradual decline in performance and I guess that can be linked to the wear and tear on the existing set up.[HR][/HR]​Sounds like it could be several problems. Old fluid and possibly glazed pads and/or rotors are high on the list.
quote:[HR][/HR]Seeing that 96.5 and up vehicles got a brake upgrade, I figured that our vehicles were lacking in this department. I heard so many good things about the DE conversion, I figured how could I not do the upgrade.
The idea of the G60 calipers was nice in that it seems to be step above the the DE, bigger caliper and bigger pads.
I find it hard to believe that the addition of 5-6lbs on each side could affect handling so much. How does the increase in unsprung weight affect handling? How does braking performance over bumpy roads decrease with the addition of weight?
BTW - I'm definitely not afraid of the Mk4 guys running around with huge brakes...[HR][/HR]​bxr140's post is right on the money. And he has addressed most of this already.
Get a good set of pads and some fresh fluid and fresh flexible lines. 
Fresh fluid is very important. Change it every two years at the minimum. VW high performance fluid is good, and usually a bargain at the dealerships (they sell at least two different types of fluid, you want the "high performanc" fluid). Castrol GT/LMA is also good and widely available. ATE Super Blue and ATE Type 200 are slightly better than the VW high performance and not terribly more expensive. Unless you plan to flush and change your fluid at least once or twice a year, pay close attention to the *wet boiling point* when shopping for brake fluid. Many "racing" fluids have higher dry boiling point, but lower wet boiling points. Unless you change the fluid very frequently, these fluids will be worse for a street driven car after 3 to 6 months than fluids with higher wet boiling points.
For the flexible lines, 5 year old (or older) rubber flexible lines are usually pretty weak and compliant. New rubber flexible lines will be much better than old rubber flexible lines. New fancy braided stainless flexible lines are slightly better than new rubber lines, but probably not enough that you would notice. Most folks who say, "I put new braided stainless lines on my car and it was 10 times better," don't understand two things:
- most of the change was due to fresh fluid, not because of the change in the flexible lines
- new rubber flexible lines would have been 9.5 times better on their scale. 
For pads, the Porterfields that bxr140 runs are excellent from everything I've heard. I've never used those pads, but I'm about to try some on one of my cars. I have used Hawk HPS (I have them on the Miata now), and I have used Ferodo DS2500 as well. I know both of those pads are excellent for braking forces generated and fade resistance. The Ferodos are very dusty (I live on a dirt road with a long dirt driveway and I notice that they are dusty). 
All of those pads will deliver 40% to 50% greater braking torque and 40% to 60% better fade resistance than stock pads. To get that kind of increase using bigger rotors and/or stronger calipers, you would need to look at 15" to 16" rotors under a stock or near stock caliper. If you wanted to keep the rotor size more reasonable, you would need to look at some huge calipers and a matching huge master cylinder and an equally huge strong leg to push the pedal.
As for the unsprung weight and rotating mass thing, whether you notice it depends on where you drive and also on how much mass your current brakes have. On the front, an increase of 5 or 6 pounds might not matter too much for a lot of people. That's because the total unsprung weight at the front is pretty big in comparison, and also because VW's tend to run pretty stiff front springs. On the rear, 5 or 6 pounds is very noticeable and hugely negative because there's less unsprung weight back there to begin with and also because VW's tend to run pretty soft rear springs.
The effects of extra unsprung weight are a less connected, less "sure footed" feeling on bumpy roads. It's especially noticeable under braking and in sharp turns where there are bumps in the braking and turning areas. Also, the ride quality over bumps can suffer some.


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## Djazair (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

I would consider brake upgrades in this order:
1. fluid, lines, pads, slotted rotors... best bang for buck
2. DE upgrade, including everything above... slight increase in unsprung weight, not a big deal unless you race.
3. Wilwood 11.0" upgrade, assuming everything from #1... best upgrade without going to larger wheels, lighter calipers too.
4. larger brake kit... need larger wheels.
You need to decide what level of braking performance you desire, and what price you are willing to pay.
Hope this helps.


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## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Djazair)*

Don't rule out EBC Greenstuff - they completely transformed my wife's Camry - it couldn't stop from the factory, it couldn't stop after I spent alot of money on new pads, rotors, lines from some "brake expert", and when I installed EBCs the car is now FUN to play the stop sign game. I also have them on my MK3 and they have been awesome - clean and squeak-free, with lot's of grab at a variety of temps. Also, fluid rapidly degrades by 20k miles, so be sure to flush often. I may have a Wilwood 11" RPI setup for sale (whenever ECS releases their big kit), with EBCs, Hawk HP+, and Wilwood "D" compound pads.


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## GTIVR6RACER4EVER (Oct 20, 2000)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (drader)*

What about some of the newer Wilwoods? 
http://www.wilwood.com/products/calipers/bdc/index.asp


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## vwventovr6 (Nov 9, 2001)

Thanks for the excellent replies...we need more people like you on the tex.
I never really considered the notion of improvement (through testimonials) as in most cases even replacing the worn OEM parts with new OEM parts would yeild a substantial improvement. I guess when you read through pages of posts that tell you that A is better than B, you really become influenced by it.
I guess should take a more holistic approach to performance upgrades in that I shouldn't isolate each system from each other since in reality they work in conjunction with each other. Your comments regarding the addition of unsprung weight in relation to the affect it has on suspension is a perfect example of that. 
In light of this, I beginning to speculate that the change in brakes between the 11" and the 11.3" also resulted in a change is suspension systems. Cars built between 93-95 (approx.) and 95-98 (approx) have different front shocks (there part numbers are the different so then they must be different). Is it logical to assume that VW would make these changes with respect to the additional weight from the braking systems?


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

A holistic approach is good. But an engineering approach helps, too. Quantify your goals and look at the ways to get there. Compare the other side effects of the various options to get there, and select the best approach that meets your goals. 
One thing you have to realize is that today, in April of 2003, you have options available to you that the designers of the early A3's didn't have in 1991-1992 when they were selecting components. You have options that the designers of the later A3 models didn't have available either. 
Also, realize that ultimately, your tires are going to be the limiting factor for braking distance. No matter how much you upgrade your brakes, if your tires lock up, all you are changing with further brake upgrades is how hard you have to press the pedal to lock the wheels. It's possible to over-upgrade the brakes. Heck, with my 20 year old Rabbit GTI race car, I can put top of the line race pads on the stock sized rotors and the thing gets very difficult to control under braking. The absolute best, highest friction and highest temperature range pads available today have a cF of around 0.70. With those on the 9.4" vented discs on my Rabbit GTI, the transition from almost no braking to locked front wheels is so quick that it's difficult not to lock the front wheels. I race on pads that are one or two steps down from the "absolute best" race pads available because I can control the car better with the slightly less grippy pads. 
Let's say your goal is at least 10% better braking torque for the same pedal force and 20% better fade resistance. You could accomplish that with a larger rotor configuration under your current caliper. Increasing the rotor diameter by about 10% would give you the additional brake torque. That would also increase the mass of the rotor and the rotor area by about 20% which would give you the added fade resistance. However, that could add as much as 25% to the inertia of the rotor, hurting accelleration to some degree. That could also add 20-25% of the weight of the stock brakes in additional unsprung weight. You could compensate for the added unsprung weight with stiffer springs or a change in the shock valving. You could also compensate for the added rotating mass by changing gearing, or by making modifications to the engine to deliver more power. 
On the other hand, upgrading to EBC Green, Hawk HPS or Ferodo DS2000 pads would increase the pad cF by around 30%-40%, which will increase brake torque by the same 30%-40% for the same pedal force. Those pads will also increase the operating temperature range up into the 650C-750C range (compared with somewhere in the 350C-500C range for the original stock pads from 1993-1994). That means that the pads would still grip up to a much higher temperature. Basically, you would get more of an upgrade from just changing pads to something higher performance. The one down side to the pad upgrade is that if you drive them hard, you will be putting more heat in the rotors. If you have problems keeping your lugs torqued properly, or if you have driving style issues that tend to warp your rotors, you'll have more warping problems with the grippier pads. However, you won't have the negative side effects on handling and accelleration, so you won't have to worry about upgrading springs or shocks or changing gearing or making engine modifications for more power to compensate for larger rotors and caliper carriers. Actually, if you wanted to improve cooling, you could go to a lighter weight, more open spoked alloy wheel (especially if you have steelies now) or remove the splash shields and put some aerodynamic bits under the car to push more air into the wheel and rotor area. Lighter wheels will also reduce inertia and unsprung weight, bringing side effects that benefit handling and accelleration in addition to helping brake cooling.
Finally, I really don't recommend changing calipers unless you really understand the way the hydraulic system works. Changes in the hydraulic components can make big differences in pedal movement and pedal stiffness. Unless you fully understand the trade-offs, you're more likely to be disappointed by changes in the hydraulic components than with changes elsewhere.


[Modified by Racer_X, 4:01 AM 4-11-2003]


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Racer_X)*

Thanks for convincing me to look at the obvious (new fluid & lines, better pads) to improve braking before spending $$$.
Unsprung weight increases are bad. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## GTIVR6RACER4EVER (Oct 20, 2000)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Electron Man)*

I have the 96.5+ 11.3 rotors on my mk3 gti vr6. I was looking to maintain my 15" wheels, so the only thing available is girling calipers and wilwood. Only problem is both are made for 11" rotors.
The decrease in rotor size/pad area is pretty big, but the increase in clamping force is also a decent increase.
I'm not sure if getting 11" slotted with girlings would be worth it, or if they would ever brake better then my stock calieprs with good pads. 
Someone with experience with these setups let me know, thanks.


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## bxr140 (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (GTIVR6RACER4EVER)*

quote:[HR][/HR]girling and wilwood
The decrease in rotor size/pad area is pretty big, but the increase in clamping force is also a decent increase.[HR][/HR]​neither will really matter though. to stop in a similar fashion in an "all else equal" situation, you will be using the SAME EXACT "clamping force" regardless of the calipers you use. with more/larger pistons, you will be applying less pressure to the brake pedal (translating into less hydraulic system pressure) but the clamping force generated at the caliper will be the same. in other words, multiple/larger caliper pistons do not have ANY effect on "clamping force", only the ease in which you as the driver apply that force. in theroy you could stop a race car just as well with your gti's calipers as you could that car's 4 or 6 pot calipers(fixed vs. floating caliper issues notwithstanding, and ignoring the effect of heat) assuming you could pump the hydraulic system pressure up to a ridiculous amount. 
pad size really doesn't have anything to do with how fast you stop either. its the properties of the pad compound that really matter. bigger pads simply mean they can absorb more heat than smaller pads. you car would stop just as well with little 1"x1" pads, as long as you could make them stay within their operating temperature range. 
obviously, going down in pad size (which you are suggesting?) increases the suceptibility to heat absorbtion. luckily, if you stick with good high performance street pads, their operating range is much higher than a stock pad, and as such, they can withstand much more heat. in my vr6 corrado, which is probably in the same weight range as your car (with smaller rotors/pads than yours), i have no problems with overheating of my porterfield pads--even if the rotors are glowing! i don't know exactly how big the wilwood pads are, but my guess is theyre probably at least the same size as the 11" pads...and even if they are a bit smaller, you won't have anything to worry about, as pad size really isnt the weak link in our cars. 
now, what you WILL notice, if you go to wilwoods and 11" rotors, is a DECREASE in pedal effort due to the multiple pistons, but an INCREASE in pedal effort due to the fact that you need to apply more "clamping force" to the smaller rotor to get the same amount of overall braking force. 
whether the net pedal effort will be more or less...i do not know. pedal travel will also likely get a bit longer with the multiple/larger caliper pistons as you will need to push more fluid. 
quote:[HR][/HR]I'm not sure if getting 11" slotted with girlings would be worth it, or if they would ever brake better then my stock calieprs with good pads. [HR][/HR]​it would absolutely NOT be worth it. the only gain would be in the small amount of rotational mass loss from the 11.3's to the 11's. thats because the increase in mass going from your calipers to the G60 calipers is probably enough to offset the unsprung mass loss from the decrease in rotor size. don't know the weights offhand, so i suppose you may actually gain or lose a small percentage of unsprung mass. 
bottom line, you can't get any better than your calipers from a purely braking performance standpoint, unless you make them lighter.


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## GTIVR6RACER4EVER (Oct 20, 2000)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (bxr140)*

Well when the times comes I am going to just do the ECS Stage II with thier upcoming 12.3" twopeice rotors. Only thing I'll need are some 16's to fit around em








I'd rather spend the money on the racecar's braking, then the daily driver.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
G'night


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## bxr140 (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (GTIVR6RACER4EVER)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I'd rather spend the money on the racecar's braking, then the daily driver. [HR][/HR]​just curious...what makes you think there is any difference in the two?


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## GTIVR6RACER4EVER (Oct 20, 2000)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (bxr140)*

Well the heat being experienced on the racecar will be greater then on my daily driver. Also the braking will be much more heavier, as well as with greater speeds. I dont know what you are trying to prove, but if you are saying that a racecar does not need superior brakes then a daily driver... I think you have to go do some research








There is a reason why high end race carshave Big rotors and 6+ pot brakes. The heat encountered is much higher, with greater speeds being reached and more performance needed as far as total performance. meaning a street pad might work good if you use it real hard for 5 minutes, but it'l fade after a bit. On a racecar you can't have that fade.
Anyways I am off to class. Im me if you have any other question. Later


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## bxr140 (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (GTIVR6RACER4EVER)*

quote:[HR][/HR] I dont know what you are trying to prove, but if you are saying that a racecar does not need superior brakes then a daily driver... I think you have to go do some research







[HR][/HR]​uh...thats not what i'm saying. i think YOU need to re-read.








for the record, the LAST thing you would want on a daily driver are true "race car" brakes, but thats another story all together. you can do some research on that, if you like...








i guess what i really want to know is the logic/thought process you used to come up with your descision to get larger brakes for performance reasons, when they won't increase the peformance level? i thought i explained the caliper 'thing' fairly well, but perhaps i need to clarify some points? mabey point you to some other posts/threads? basically, the problem is that here on vortex (and in most other groups as well) there is a widespread misunderstanding/lack of knowlege with regard to braking systems in general, as well as with respect to the specific capabilities (and limitations) of stock components...i'm just part of a small group here that is trying to save people the trouble of buying something for the wrong reasons. (for the record, with regard to big brake conversions, "want" = the "right" reason, "need" = the "wrong" reason.)
basicaly, what EXACTLY are you expecting to gain from going to different calipers/rotors? perhaps if we start there we can clear up some confusion. 
also, for the record, check out bluevr6's posts....he has the same exact car as you, only with EXTENSIVE track time. guess what brakes he uses?


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## GTIVR6RACER4EVER (Oct 20, 2000)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (bxr140)*

I understand, we just had a slight midunderstanding.
I track as well, in racecars, as well as Shifters, Fsae, and this summer some openwheel (time permitting).
Basically I know the stock system has potential, look at Stock Prod classes, they do just fine with slotted stock size rotors, and good pads.
And I am NT racing this VW, I just wanted to "upgrade" my braking system rather then just doing pads/rotors, which i already have done.
Oneof the cars (its a dedicated racecar so its hardcore) but it comes with 15" rotors and 6 pot calipers for a reason. A single cyl caliper on a 10" rotor wont suffice. Even if it was a kevlar twopeice ultra heat resistant metal. 
I know what you are trying to say, and I totally agree, that stock systems are better then "most" people think, however I know the limitations of my "stock" sized setup, and i feel i want something a bit more. 
The thought process was this: problem need better braking, planning-bigger rotors, better calipers, solution purchase bigger brake kit. 
If the porsche caliper setup that ECS sells that is an OEM porsche caliper, why would porsche not use the dinky caliper stock vr6 caliper on thier car? And why does the porsche brake better? Given they are entirely different cars, but concerning brakes here...
Eitherway Its JUST my daily driver, and if its $1100 for the whole shabang, Its not a big deal.
I would not really want to race my vw, lapping thats another thing, just to see how it would do, and I might bring it by LRP this summer when I am tracking there. But if I am going to be on the track whether raing or just practicing, I would rather be in a car that was made for the track, not a street car that wont hold up. 
Thanks for your concern, i appreciate what you are trying to get across, but I know what i am doing as far as what performance I want and what performance I can get out of the stock units. Feel free to IM me if you want to talk further.
have a g'night








P.S. Oh and I entirely agree with your statement about racing brakes on a street car, its a big NO NO! Heck it takes me a solid 4 laps at pocono to get our kevlar's warmed up...and thats with a 150-30mph brake after the back straight










[Modified by GTIVR6RACER4EVER, 7:16 PM 4-14-2003]


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## vwventovr6 (Nov 9, 2001)

Thanks guys for the replies... I had to leave this post for a while as I wanted to get more info on the brake situation of my vehicle.
I'm definitely going to replace the brake fluid and the lines (probably stick with the OEM rubber). I was changing the oil and decided to check the brakes. 
I measured the width of the rotor and it was 20mm. If I recall they should be 22mm??? No? 
Could this also be contributing to poor braking?
Should I be considering new rotors (thinking of the ATE Power Discs)?
Would they work well with the pads you suggested above?
If I haven't asked enough questions, here is one more. I noticed that the calipers on the front are the "Lucus 54" which I'm guessing is the same as the "Girling 54". If the Audi dual pistons are the "Girling 60", then what are the DE calipers called? What is the difference in the piston size for each (the DE and Lucus 54)? 

Here is a six pack for your troubles...


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwventovr6* »_... snip ...
I measured the width of the rotor and it was 20mm. If I recall they should be 22mm??? No? 

That sounds right, but I'm mostly an A1 (and sometimes A2) guy. If it doesn't have CIS, I really don't know much about it.

_Quote, originally posted by *vwventovr6* »_Could this also be contributing to poor braking?

Possibly. It's more likely that your pads or rotors are glazed though. Thin rotors usually don't make for poor braking forces. The more common result from thin rotors is early fade.

_Quote, originally posted by *vwventovr6* »_Should I be considering new rotors (thinking of the ATE Power Discs)?

New rotors are definitely indicated if yours are worn below the minimum thickness. As for slotted rotors like the ATE Power discs, they look kind of cool, but for most people they don't have much advantage beyond that. If you are having issues with fade due to excessive gassing out from the pads (mainly a result of using cheap pads over their designed operating temperature range), then slots help give the gasses a way to escape. Slotted rotors also reduce glazing (again a side effect of using pads beyond their designed operating temperature range) by scraping away any molten material from the surface layer of the pads. This scraping action also causes quicker pad wear than plain stock rotors.

_Quote, originally posted by *vwventovr6* »_Would they work well with the pads you suggested above?

For the most part, slotted rotors are unnecessary with the pads we've been mentioning on this thread. The Porterfield, Hawk and Ferodo pads we've been talking about don't fade in street driving (no matter how insane you drive on the street), and if these pads are bedded in properly, they won't glaze in normal use (even in "spirited driving", autocrosses and light to moderate track use). So the primary advantages of slotted rotors aren't needed with the best pads available. One thing that won't change with good pads is the pad wear disadvantage to slotted rotors. Slotted rotors will definitely wear out your high performance pads quicker than plain stock rotors. Most of the high performance pads will last longer than stock pads, which partially offsets the increased price of the pads. With slotted rotors, your pad wear will be much quicker than with stock rotors, though.

_Quote, originally posted by *vwventovr6* »_If I haven't asked enough questions, here is one more. I noticed that the calipers on the front are the "Lucus 54" which I'm guessing is the same as the "Girling 54". If the Audi dual pistons are the "Girling 60", then what are the DE calipers called?

Big and heavy









_Quote, originally posted by *vwventovr6* »_What is the difference in the piston size for each (the DE and Lucus 54)? 

Here is a six pack for your troubles...













































I'm not sure about the differences in the piston sizes. Again, it's not nearly as much as the difference between the cF of stock pads compared to the Hawks, Ferodos and Porterfields we've been recommending. 
If you really want to upgrade calipers, go with something that weighs less, in addition to larger and/or more pistions. The Porsche monoblock calipers or some of the Wildwoods are actually lighter in addition to being multi-piston and larger. Thats an all around upgrade. Again, those generally are not as big an upgrade as better pads, and those calipers are somewhat more expensive (and less cost effective).


_Modified by Racer_X at 3:24 AM 4-29-2003_


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## SiJosh (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vwventovr6)*

so after reading all this, where can i buy the ebc green stuff pads offline for a 95 jetta glx?


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## Cabrio1.8T (Jan 6, 2003)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (SiJosh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SiJosh* »_so after reading all this, where can i buy the ebc green stuff pads offline for a 95 jetta glx?

Offline or online?
goto tirerack.com
click brakes http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vorpal (Feb 7, 2003)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Cabrio1.8T)*

Just curious...
Does no one like Mintex RedBox?


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (vorpal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vorpal* »_Just curious...
Does no one like Mintex RedBox?

Depends on what you're doing. For JUST street driving (no canyon runs or autox), they are fine. But, they are NOT performance pads, so you don't want to be running on them if you're rcing the car or really hammering the brakes when you drive. They are low dust OEM-grade pads and that's it. They're good, just not for hi performance driving.


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## golfgringo (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Racer_X)*

How encouraging to have such a cogent discusion on brakes; especilally one which focuses on function rather that appearance or coolness! [I need to spend more time on this side of the Tex.]
Here is my question:
Will installing a larger master cylinder with my stock calipers and rotors give me better brake feel and the ability to modulate and avoid lockup on the track.
I am thinking of the 23mm MK4's onto my 97 Jetta GLX


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## golfgringo (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (golfgringo)*

Any opinions here?


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (golfgringo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *golfgringo* »_
Here is my question:
Will installing a larger master cylinder with my stock calipers and rotors give me better brake feel and the ability to modulate and avoid lockup on the track.
I am thinking of the 23mm MK4's onto my 97 Jetta GLX



all things being equal a larger master cylinder will displace more brake fluid per inch of pedal travel. with that said going from whatever to a larger master will yeild this.
Less brake pedal throw to get the same amount of braking BUT the pedal effort will be more. It will give you that nice firm high brake pedal and it wont need to travel very far from not being depressed to locking up the brakes, but it will be significantly harder to push the short distance it needs to be pushed.
Personally i like something somewhere in the middle not a long squishy throw of the pedal, but also not a very high/hard/limited travel pedal either.
its all about preference, i can modulate better like i said above w/ a middle of the road combo. others (many) like they very high/hard pedal w/ minimal travel.
as for 'feel' you can replace your caliper guide bushings w/ metal (contact tyrolsport aka 'tyrolkid' (mike P.) i know he made these for the mkiv stock brakes i dunno about others, they help with feel and do not deflect so you get alot less tappered pad wear)
also new(er) stock brake lines or stainless lines help w/ feel.
finally for modulation i find that brake pads have more of an influence than anything else. some brake pads are very grabby and 'spike' their braking force too easily that hurts modulation others are nice and linear all the way through and a small change in pedal throw will not go from hard braking right to lock up like other pads.


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Banditt007)*

great discussion going on here BTW i love the 'real' info given and not the ' I NEED A BIG BRAKE KIT' kind of thing.


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## mk2alex (Dec 26, 2005)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Racer_X)*

I don't know how you guys drive on the streets but hawk hps sure do fade when driving on the streets, like smoke coming out of the wheels and pedal to the floor. Good chance once your at that point you'll warp your rotor in no time too even if your torque your wheels properly and etc... and cross drill will crack. 
Bigger rotors and pads will leave you with a little extra room to play in the heat departement so you can run a little less agressive pads (IE no need to warm them up like a race car because that's not better than fade on a street car) and still keep some braking resistance. Solid calipers also weight less and give better brake feel. I don't know everyone is against bigger brakes on this forums, they do have advantages when properly setup.


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## golfgringo (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (Banditt007)*

Yeah I dig the discussion as well.
Here is what I am running into - keep in mind I am currently 100% stock and pushing fluid through 100K old rubber lines that are likely balooning.
Once the tires come up to temp and the testosterone starts flowing








, I try to go deeper into the braking zone. My pedal travel increases and throws off my heel and toe. Also prior to blipping, I am actually _on the throttle _because of the low pedal and I am fighting my brakes with the engine.
Soo, how to fix this?
Yes I'll start w/ flushing the fluid, upgrading the pads, and putting on new rubber or hopefully SS lines.
I am only partially optimistic, how ever, because the same thing happened, to a lesser degree, with my purpose built A2 8v. Hence my desire for a higher, albeit stiffer pedal.
More of your opinion please. 
But also answer, if I upgrade to the 23mm Mas cyl from the Mk4 is a bolt on? Is there any other modding required? How bout the dredded bleeding of the ABS?


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## jetdavdub (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: Brake Upgrades - Mk3 VR6 (golfgringo)*

I like big brakes and I cannot lie all you other vw brothers can't deny http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Adam-96 (Oct 10, 2008)

Let's discuss REAR brake upgrades. So far from what I've found, the best bang for the buck is Mk4 calipers with TT rotors. Does anyone know of any BBK's for mk3 rear brakes?


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