# 2002 Beetle - 2.0 AVH - Cranks- No spark/No Fuel - No start



## buckaroo_bonzai (May 28, 2014)

*2002 VW new beetle with AVH engine & Auto Trans (44,200 miles).*
Wife's car- died in midst of driving.
Started with simple tests in parking lot (pre-tow):
tested with starter fluid direct to intake - cranks no start.
No spark via inline tester. 
initial error codes = P0725, P1780, P1850 found with an Actron CP9850A OBDII .
Codes reset to attempt restart. Still no start, no codes set when cranking.
EPC and Check Engine Lights remain on (constant). Other lights cycle per spec.
All other functions (lights, wipers, heat/AC, radio (stock), seats, trunk lock, door locks, etc) appear to function normally.
Lights and such activate with door opening - seeming to clear any micro-switch issues.

Got it towed back to house.
replaced with a new battery - old battery was the original & tested on margin - 12 years old and starting to go.
battery case top fuses all intact - continuity good (see relay power test below).
All battery top fuses and cables good, clean and test at 12V.
attempted reset by pos & neg battery cable joined for 30+ secs - no change.
- based on the P0725 code and reading is this forum and elsewhere -replaced crank sensor - new 
(resistance tests[1-2,2-3,1-3] new sensor @0/700/0 ohms; old sensor also tested @0/700/0).
Tach "bumps" (sub 500) when cranking.

replaced fuel filter (just in case)
Fuel pump cycles with door opening (at low pressure) and at key power on (as pressure dictates) and can hear relay contacting on/off during those intervals
- seems to indicate that inside relay 409 functioning. I have not tested the leads on the pump as result and per below tests indicating good pump.
Fuel level correctly indicates with key on.

?? However - note fuse readings below (possible anomolies) ??

engine compartment relay 428/grey - ECM - 
tested 428 relay sockets - key off / on: 
85- 2.16v / 0.4v ??
86- 12v / 12v
30- 12v / 12v
87- 0v / 0v
85-86- key on = 11.62v
simple activation test- 12v jump 85/86- closes 30/87 contact
no corrosion on relay pins or in sockets- very clean (true for all relays)

Interior relay power terminals all test 12v per spec:
75x- 0/12 (key off/key on)
30.1- 12/12
30.2- 12/12
30a- 12/12
87F- 0/0


Fuses (continuity test for all [1-44] - good): power tests key off / key on / crank
5 - 0/12/did not test crank
7 - 0/12/did not test crank
**10 - test sequence: 0 with no key, 0 key in off, 12 key on, 12 crank, 12 key off, 0 no key- put key in off = 0, 12 key on, etc ??** is this an anomoly??
11 - 0/12/did not test crank
28 - 0/0/0
29 - 0/12/did not test crank
32 - 0/0/0
34 - 0/0/0
43 - 0/0/0

So it appears to me that a symptom of the problem(s):

*Sympton #1- *
fuse#10 test- no power with key out, or with key first put in; only 12v power after key turn. 
This seems odd to me since - the diagrams I found (Bentley and Haynes) seem to indicate that this circuit is direct power from the battery.
Correct ?
Question - with no key in the ignition - should fuse#10 see 12v (always hot)? 
Or does fuse 10 only see power when the key has been inserted (key sense)? --diagrams don't show fuse#10 going through ign switch.
What role does the power feed through fuse 10 to the ECM play?
Must the ECM always (even without key on) have a power feed?

*Symptom #2-*
fuses 28,32,43 no receiving power - 
I jumped 2-8 terminals at Relay409 - the fuel pump run continuously and I have power at 28,32& 43.
Also - when pump cycles- and I can catch it- I do have power at 28,32& 43- until (relay opens) and pumps shuts off.
This seems to indicate a good ECM functioning and good Relay409. Right ?
This seems to point to a problem at the ignition switch end giving signal to Relay409.

*Symptom #3-*
Fuse 34- seems to be the PCV heating element. Correct ?
This might throw a code via the ECM - but this should not cause a no start condition.
Correct ?


I only have an Actron code reader - no VW specific tool.
My goal is to rule out all hardware and wiring items - prior to messing with the dealer & ECM. (There are no VW mech's in my town- 30 mile tow, etc.)
Periodic fuel pump prime -seems to indicate that ECM is getting some power & fullfilling function.

Per the above- IF- fuse#10 goes through the ignition switch -and- if T15(black wire to Relay409) from ignition switch is bad- this would explain 2 of 3 symptoms.
Seeming to indicate ignition switch replacement.

thanks for any help.
IF we keep the vehical will likely get clone cable and VSDS-light(registered)--- but only IF...


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

I think you may be overthinking this. Have you tried a known good coil? Also verify fuel pressure at the rail and verify the presence of injector pulse while cranking.

Verify that there is an RPM reading on the scanner while cranking. What are the definitions for those codes? I'm too lazy to look them up right now.

The CEL lights up for bulb check and the ECU talks to a scan tool so I wouldn't go chasing ECU relays or anything along those lines just yet.


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## buckaroo_bonzai (May 28, 2014)

*Anony00GT reply*

Thanks for reading through my troubles. Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

I was attempting to sequentially test those branches of the wiring system showing issues - since I do not have the VSDS scanner.
Hence my rather long posting - so as not to omit potentially pertinent information/data.

P0725 Engine Speed Sensor (crankshaft position sensor) - hence my checks and replacement

P1780 Transmission Control Module (TCM) - park/N safety switch - my thinking was this code was thrown when engine cut out with transmission still in drive until the vehicle coasted to stop. Thus far I have not done anything on the is code.

P1850 TCM missing data from ECU - my cursory research on this one seems to indicate that this is interrelated to P1780 and the no power condition. Thus far I have not done anything on the is code.

Your questions on fuel pressure -- I did jump past Relay 409- and with power at fuse#28-verified operating fuel pump- ample fuel at the line before the pressure regulator - and- pressure regulator diaphram bi-pass operation via fuel through the return line. I have not hooked up a pressure gage to confirm precise pressure - since I am having the issues with activation of Relay409. Similarly- with R409 bi passes- fuses #32 (fuel injectors) & 43 (emmissions-MAF,O2,SAI,EVAP) showed power. I have not tested each individual sensor - since there were no discrete indicative fault codes and since (inho) it appears that the issue lies with contacting Relay409 - either at the ignition switch (likely) or ECM (unlikely - given periodic pressure cycling mention in OP).

Your questions on the coil/spark/ignition- I have not messed with coil/wires/etc - since I am having the issues with fuse#10 and Relay409. My understanding (via the wiring diagrams and reading through the forum) - is that ECM will not allow the coil to fire or the injectors to pulse- given the fuse relay issue.
As I mentioned in the post- my scan tool is limited on functionality and does not read the data that you are requesting.

I am thinking that I first need to resolve the three symptoms:
#1- Fuse#10 (appears to go through ignition switch by operational testing vs. wiring diagram show always hot from battery- Which is it ?)

#2- Relay409 trigger from ignition switch on/crank - (e.g.- fuses 28,32&43 no power)- *I am investigating ignition switch this afternoon.*

#3- Fuse#34 (PCV heating element)-no power- shouldn't stop operation - should only throw a code. Was going to chase this last

Question- is there an independent way to test/fire the coil on the vehicle ?
I do not have any resistance values for impedance testing. 
Once I have reliable activation from Relay409- then the ECM should also have a good signal to "fire" coil.
At that point- I would expect to see spark. If no spark then I was going to wonder about the coil.
Sound reasonable ?

Thanks Again.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

You're overthinking again. When a car won't start, general diagnostic procedure is to scan for and repair any applicable codes (which you already did), if no codes, go directly to spark/fuel tests first. That goes for any car.

Relay 409 is the fuel pump relay, correct? Normal operation is for it to turn on briefly at key-on or door open to prime, then shut off. The ECU will not turn it back on at that point until it sees an RPM signal. So if you're not cranking the engine, you're not going to see a turn-on signal for that relay and it will remain off. Also, if that relay wasn't working, you'd have no power to the injectors or EVAP components, usually resulting in a multitude of circuit codes.

I'd go right to the ignition system under the hood. Get a spark tester on it, if not spark, swap a known good coil.


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## buckaroo_bonzai (May 28, 2014)

*Anony00GT reply - coil & signal*

OK- taking your advice and working the ignition coil angle...

Tested 6 pin connector:
1- good continuity to ground (10 ohms +/-)
2-5: trigger signal during cranking
6- 12.6 v to ground; 12.6 v to pin#1

So this would seem to say that fuse#29 circuit and ECM /cam/crank circuit is good.

OEM plug wires test with resistance values 6kohms +/- (within 4-8 spec).

I am not sure that I can test the coil (VW 06 /a 905 097) but attempted resistance tests on secondary side:

1-4 = open/infinite
2-3 = open/infinite

Seems like I will get a new coil and report back (as you recommended).
Just for kicks I will record the resistance numbers out of the box on the coil's secondary side for reference, etc.

thanks


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Yup. Replace the coil and report back. Be sure to use a genuine Bosch from a reputable source, or OE from the dealer. DO NOT use a Chinese one from a big-box auto parts store.


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## buckaroo_bonzai (May 28, 2014)

*taking two steps back-- error on verify coil signal from ECM -- stuck*

*Short version- * power and ground at coil; no signal at 2-5 pins to coil;
Camshaft and Crankshaft Sensors test "good" (as best can tell).
Books say only thing left to check is ECM...
==========

*Long version:*
Took out the old coil and put it to the side
Put in the new coil (Denso best available here off shelf)- and did quick hook up test for spark.
NO SPARK at all.
Somewhat baffled - I redid my tests on the feeds to the coil w/key on.
1- 0v
6- 12.6v
2- no signal (this time)
3- no signal (this time)
4- no signal (this time)
5- no signal (this time)

rechecked my test light and found faulty connection (which must have led to false observation of light flashing/flicker indicating trigger during engine turnover)
changed to better test light and verified the above - no signal being sent to coil.
so may be nothing wrong with original coil... apparently there is no simple way to bench test these coils

Based on my understanding of this coil trigger circuit (engine speed/crankshaft sensor - ECM - camshaft sensor), did the following test(s):

tested camshaft sensor:
power leads (harness side)- 
1: 5v 
2: 11v 
3: 0v & less than 10 ohms continuity with bat ground

backprobed with power lead connected to sensor- engine slow crank to verify signal:
2: varies with position 0-10v 

Camshaft Sensor appears to properly operate within specifications.

Crankshaft Sensor (new) appears to test within specifications (1-2 & 1-3 = inf. ohms; 2-3 at 700 as per prior posting).

I don't know what else to check.
I am still wondering about the relationship of fuse#10 ("always on" power to ECM per diagrams vs. key actuated per my prior tests).
Can power input to the ECM have anything to do with this problem ?


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## Dancehall-Ape (Mar 15, 2014)

Is it possible that the engine may have jumped timing?


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## buckaroo_bonzai (May 28, 2014)

*No evidence of bad timing*



Dancehall-Ape said:


> Is it possible that the engine may have jumped timing?


Thanks for pitching in.

Timing belt was inspected via upper cover removal - belt looks good at (40k miles) - probably 20k+ to change.
Teeth look good- didn't bother checking TDC etc.

But I don't think there is a timing belt issue- haven't seen any symptoms prior to sudden die/no start.
The belt issue wouldn't affect the crankshaft - so primary signal to ECM should be unaffected.
Slipping/Jumping would affect camshaft / timing - probably putting it into limp mode (if starts) -or- no start, but should still have spark.
Even with the belt off a tooth or two- wouldn't there still be spark - but out of time ?

thanks


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## buckaroo_bonzai (May 28, 2014)

*ECM diagnosis= fault*

Independent VW tech says that ECM is "not responding / partially dead ". 

Says that ECM needs to be replaced, coded, etc.
I've done a bit of reading on these ECM swaps, repair, reman - etc.
I am thinking of avoiding the salvage lot - crapshoot - and (as a result) paying additional to get a repair/reman unit.

I am in the process of getting the car back from the shop -so I don't have the ECM in front of me to get exact part no.
But car is 2002 Beetle GLS w/ 2.0 AVH engine / Auto-Trans.

New Questions:

1- Is it true that when ever a different ECM is put into a car (even same part no.) - that the vehicle must be "re-coded" by the dealer?

2- provided the ECM is a VW part - what is the opinion on repair v. reman - given that purchase will have a "lifetime warranty" ?

3- Are their any preferred / recommended vendors ?

Thanks for any suggestions and/or help.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

"Partially dead" huh? I'd like to see the scan on that one.

As far as vendors, the best bet is to just get one from the dealer.

As for the coding questions, VCDS can code the module, but the ECU also has to be matched to the cluster and keys for immobilizer, otherwise the engine will just start and immediately stall. To make this happen, the car must be connected to a dealership machine and the immo codes are all retrieved online directly from Germany, the dealership can't even give you the PIN anymore because they don't see it. Unfortunately, dealerships are the only places that have access to this system.


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## pscarpin (Jul 24, 2014)

*Resolution?*

I was just wondering if you have fixed the problem. I'm seeing the same with my 2002 Beetle 2L. I had the codes P0725, P1780, P1850 after it quit. I changed out the TDC sensor and had 850ohm on the original and 750 ohm on the new. All the relays under the dash seem to be working correctly. I've checked all the fuses for continuity and power. I don't have power to fuses 32 & 34 when key is on. 

Scan tool rarely shows rpm while cranking. That is the case with both sensors. I'm thinking it is a wiring/connection problem somewhere. I've noticed the harness connector under the battery is soaked in power steering fluid. The reservoir is still up to the full level, but is also soaked. Someone overfill it? (I just got the car). 

What's the best way to clean the wires/connector?
What voltage should be on the tdc sensor pins when cranking?

Bentley manual on order......


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## buckaroo_bonzai (May 28, 2014)

*Follow-up and closure*

Regrets for not posting after figuring and fixing the problem.

In our case - it did end up being a dead ECU.
Replaced with a NOS ECU and it fired writeup (after getting the key taken care of at the dealer).

In my case- despite many years of general automotive experience (including Benz's)-
the fact that I had no experience with the modern VAG vehicles or their unique software/hardware requirements-
had me doing too much traditional, mechanical troubleshooting.
If I had the special software on my computer and plugged it into the car- it would have told me it was brain dead....

C'est la vie...live and learn...

Best of luck...


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## pscarpin (Jul 24, 2014)

Thanks for the update.


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## stobra34 (Mar 19, 2010)

i am having the same problem with exact same codes on 2000 Jetta vr6. cranking no start, no fuel, no spark. However, every now and then the car WILL start. seems to run well when it does start. no misfire codes, not running in limp mode. seems like it drives normal... what was weird is that I did get the workshop indicators (abs, airbag, engine, emissions).

things ive checked:

ground wires at ECM - ok
fuses inside car - ok
ECM connections - ok

I guess next thing to do is check battery connections, grounds under battery and relays. any other directions to go? im thinking may not be the ECM since it will start occasionally.


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