# How about an ITB's FAQ?



## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

if any one ever did a complete ITB setup and can share his experience please do so, a nice write up with numbers and suggestions would greatly benefit the forum.
thanks in advance.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: How about an ITB's FAQ? (manfredwerner)*

With all the 'how/what do i need to ITB ______...' i think a ITB FAQ would be a great idea.


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: How about an ITB's FAQ? (secondgen)*

Zurking A Secondgen!


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## Redrckt (May 20, 2002)

*Re: How about an ITB's FAQ? (manfredwerner)*

I third that


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

Thumbs down.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (woodrowstar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *woodrowstar* »_Thumbs down. 

To a ITB FAQ? Why? You like seeeing the 5 threads per day on 'how do i itb my car?'


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (secondgen)*

i just nedd a good refernce thread where to look it all up and just to find out what and how.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

yeah seriously I've looked WAY TOO MUCH in the past 6 months and found almost NOTHING!!!
I am building a 16v and it's going in quite soon, I'm motronic and want to go SEM + mild ITB's.... daily/college commuter


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

There are FAR to many variables to do a simple FAQ. Best way I've found is to follow build threads. Ask the poster questions that would be specific to your build. Hell, I'm going with TWM's and they are even far from bolt-on-and-go.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

secondgen, what are TWM's







****, I suck at this
remember me? we met at dynoday at ESP. I equally dyno'd against ya







and soon I will have much better numbers, even prior to ITBs+standalone
edit:
you're a tech, where?
I swear, only mechanics/the crazy ITB our cars. that's why none of the guys I hang out(all mk4's) do it.








and the fact that almost everyone ITB'ing is putting their cars on the track scares me. I'd really like to see some MPG #'s before I go through with this.










_Modified by Tekron for president at 9:21 PM 7-8-2008_


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

Yes i remember you Mr. Shift.....er....wait.....nvm.








TWM is a company that makes ITB set-ups for many different cars:
TWM Induction
There are other companies that have similar setups:
Badger 5 (europe found mostly)
Jenvey
Many other companies too, but unsure of availibility to the VW crowd.
Not only mechanics can do this, but you certainly need to be mechanically minded.
I just filled up my tank in the coupe tonight, and it's at least the 5th tank full that's gotten 28+MPG mixed driving highway, city, abuse. (granted this is all pre-itb's) And not on the same tune as i was on @ the ESP dynoday.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (secondgen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *secondgen* »_Yes i remember you Mr. Shift.....er....wait.....nvm.








TWM is a company that makes ITB set-ups for many different cars:
TWM Induction
There are other companies that have similar setups:
Badger 5 (europe found mostly)
Jenvey
Many other companies too, but unsure of availibility to the VW crowd.
Not only mechanics can do this, but you certainly need to be mechanically minded.
I just filled up my tank in the coupe tonight, and it's at least the 5th tank full that's gotten 28+MPG mixed driving highway, city, abuse. (granted this is all pre-itb's) And not on the same tune as i was on @ the ESP dynoday.

with:
a 12" sub + amp
GIAC chip
253 euro intake cam
ABD big bore intake
3 angle VJ + somewhat recently rebuilt head
no O2 sensor(not hooked up lol)
no exhaust past cat(yep...







)
I get ~30+ on highway, I think that's pretty good. I can't wait til I put my new 9A in, P+P, 1k miles, bigger cams, etc.
I'm REALLY curious to see MPG on itb's, especially a mildly tuned setup http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 
edit: but also I'm 16v, and you're 8v haha. it's scary how modding kills gas mileage sometimes










_Modified by Tekron for president at 10:02 PM 7-8-2008_


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tekron for president* »_
and the fact that almost everyone ITB'ing is putting their cars on the track scares me. I'd really like to see some MPG #'s before I go through with this.









the MPG sucks ass. but the kick ass throttle response ALMOST makes up for it. Tuning a bike setup isn't too bad (at least with ms) - but getting it to start in the cold can be (no isv on my setup).
I can say this: It was worth the money for us. I got a great deal on ms - and i think i paid 75$ for the itbs - and i got a deal from a friend that welds aluminum to make an intake using my existing manifold for a flange. the entire thing may have cost us 500$ - a hell of a deal considering i paid more than that for my exhaust. Everyone heard us. Everyone raced us at lights. Very few people won. 
We daily'd and tortured that aba for about a year with the itbs before i started dealing with the little problems (using home depot hoses/clamps) and finally getting around to fixing the little starting problem it had EVERY morning (lets just say flames were involved). It jsut kept coming back for more.. definitely worth the money - and dealing with the factory shi7 is more of a pain in the arse than ms was.. (having never done SEM previously).
I plan on doing it again in my baja bug.
the setup is now sitting on a shelf as i am now doing the aba 16v m90eaton thing..
Now after saying all that and screwing around with friend's cars and the like, I personally feel that you can get the same gains without most of the drawbacks by just using a bigger throttle body on a shorty manifold. the tunability is better and it can be a bit easier to deal with things like isv's and the like. probably better mileage too. the sound is there, most of the clearance problems disappear, you don't need to go SEM right away, and its going to be a little easier to drive (there really is such a thing as too much throttle response - or not..)..
thanks for lending me the space to express my humble opnion on the itb subject...


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

2200 for the 16V TWM?!?! **** that, seriously, I won't spend more than 2k on standalone in ADDITION to ITB's. I'd rather make my own setup and just get MS considering that kinda money. wasn't USRT developing a 16v kit to run on stock fuel management for under or ~1k?


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

you can make your own with bike itbs for a couple hundred bux. you just have to have a plenum for the ITBs so the air still enters through your stock stuff.. maf if digi and fuel dist if cis.. if it hurts throttle response i would be suprised..


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (pr0zac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pr0zac* »_the MPG sucks ass. but the kick ass throttle response ALMOST makes up for it. Tuning a bike setup isn't too bad (at least with ms) - but getting it to start in the cold can be (no isv on my setup).
I can say this: It was worth the money for us. I got a great deal on ms - and i think i paid 75$ for the itbs - and i got a deal from a friend that welds aluminum to make an intake using my existing manifold for a flange. the entire thing may have cost us 500$ - a hell of a deal considering i paid more than that for my exhaust. Everyone heard us. Everyone raced us at lights. Very few people won. 
We daily'd and tortured that aba for about a year with the itbs before i started dealing with the little problems (using home depot hoses/clamps) and finally getting around to fixing the little starting problem it had EVERY morning (lets just say flames were involved). It jsut kept coming back for more.. definitely worth the money - and dealing with the factory shi7 is more of a pain in the arse than ms was.. (having never done SEM previously).
I plan on doing it again in my baja bug.
the setup is now sitting on a shelf as i am now doing the aba 16v m90eaton thing..
Now after saying all that and screwing around with friend's cars and the like, I personally feel that you can get the same gains without most of the drawbacks by just using a bigger throttle body on a shorty manifold. the tunability is better and it can be a bit easier to deal with things like isv's and the like. probably better mileage too. the sound is there, most of the clearance problems disappear, you don't need to go SEM right away, and its going to be a little easier to drive (there really is such a thing as too much throttle response - or not..)..
thanks for lending me the space to express my humble opnion on the itb subject...









great post!
as much as I don't like to hear about racing, good quote















I'm trying to scrounge in the back of my head to see if I know anyone who would be able to smooth out a 42mm lower intake mani for me to fit it to some silicone tubing... I bet I know somebody








the only problem is that steep step that's going to restrict air flow... that is why I previously wanted a kit. I searched via google and I'm pretty good at searching, but, did not find too much other than the USRT kit, which, I quickly wrote up an email regarding and never heard back from(6 months ago).
gas mileage sucks - 3mpg less or 10mpg less? considering heavy foot. if I need to commute, I'm not going to drive like an *******. I'd really like to know what kind of numbers I can come up with when I'm not angry


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

let me put it this way. my scout II gets better mileage with a big block. but its not as fun to drive. of course we rarely drove the car without anger being involved.
do NOT worry about anything restricting airflow. that is the last thing you need to worry yourself about. There is already so much air that it's a godamned off/on switch..


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

REALLY? in my research it seems like airflow is the main reasons companies are producing their own ITB kits, as if they come up with something some one can't make given an afternoon and a 6-pack.
edit:
scout II? sh** I do not know what that is


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

Very well put. 
unless you throw an assLOAD of money into the rest of your engine, all that crap is HYPE. my intake was thrown together in 1 evening using scrap aluminum. using the 8v meant the runners were too small so i needed to step them out with 2 different sized chunks of aluminum tubing. - so i had not one - but TWO steps to hurdle - i spent about 10 minutes with a dremel and didn't even smooth them 1/50th of what i felt comfortable with. I only stopped because I decided I would finish it up later - and never did because it wasn't a problem.


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (pr0zac)*

btw - here is a pic of my budget build


















_Modified by pr0zac at 6:29 AM 7-9-2008_


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

interesting setup. i could be a complete idiot(I am drunk), but, how come you ran a manifold like that? did it work really well? it seems like that single cone filter wouldn't suck in a decent amount of air(particularly cold air) for the TB's full potential


_Modified by Tekron for president at 10:35 PM 7-8-2008_


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tekron for president* »_scout II? sh** I do not know what that is























its an international version of a blazer or bronco. old school american iron truck thingy probably weighs 2xs as much as the jetta.


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tekron for president* »_interesting setup. i could be a complete idiot(I am drunk), but, how come you ran a manifold like that? did it work really well? it seems like that single cone filter wouldn't suck in a decent amount of air(particularly cold air) for the TB's full potential


i had the log made because it was cheaper than running 4 individual filters (quality). edit: also 1 large filter has more suface area than 4 tiny ones - allowing more air..
i also ran this without the log and without filters for awhile.








there was no negative effect.
when the air enters the filter and rolls past the itbs and hits a closed valve it has to go somewhere. with the log there, it bounces back into the itb instead of venting - giving a tuned manifold effect in the mid end.. in short, it seemed to help the end of my torque band a bit. I was also planning on boosting it down the road. until i found out how bad having that many home depot couplers is..


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (pr0zac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pr0zac* »_its an international version of a blazer or bronco. old school american iron truck thingy probably weighs 2xs as much as the jetta.

ew.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (pr0zac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pr0zac* »_i had the log made because it was cheaper than running 4 individual filters (quality). edit: also 1 large filter has more suface area than 4 tiny ones - allowing more air..
i also ran this without the log and without filters for awhile.








there was no negative effect.
when the air enters the filter and rolls past the itbs and hits a closed valve it has to go somewhere. with the log there, it bounces back into the itb instead of venting - giving a tuned manifold effect in the mid end.. in short, it seemed to help the end of my torque band a bit. I was also planning on boosting it down the road. until i found out how bad having that many home depot couplers is..

interesting. looks like this is turning into the ITB's FAQ page that always should have been there.
would you recommend running a similar set up? ITB's as opposed to ITB's connected to a log manifold + intake filter?


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

that scout has a combine engine under the hood. they never go bad.. never seen an international block that needs bored because of damage - the machine shops hate doing custom **** to them because the blocks are so damned hard... lol - it will run forever.. -i have the scout for the same reason i have a 12g winchester. i would rather have it and not need it than the other way around.


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

either way - but you probably need the plenum if you want to try them without stand alone.. and remember these two peices of advice:
Vacuum leaks are not your friend. Neither is JB weld for plugging the injector holes..


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (pr0zac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pr0zac* »_either way - but you probably need the plenum if you want to try them without stand alone.. and remember these two peices of advice:
Vacuum leaks are not your friend. Neither is JB weld for plugging the injector holes..

1. jb weld is never good
2. thank god I'm motronic, not digi, or else vacuum leaks might just be that much worse(from what I hear)


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...08071
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3610403
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3597916


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

There is no reason MPG has to suffer. It's all in the tuning.
CB Performance built a 'mileage' setup (the article is on their site), and when they put it on ITBs, it crested the 40mpg mark with low 15's at the track. THis is on a 1700cc flat-4...with 48mm ITBs. I find that most folks don't put much effort into tuning for economy, since the fine details of standalone usually go un-noticed. The only reason it is GOING to suffer, is the heavy foot







.
Heck, some of the good aircooled tuners are seeing 30+mpg on dual downdraft carbs...


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_There is no reason MPG has to suffer. It's all in the tuning.
CB Performance built a 'mileage' setup (the article is on their site), and when they put it on ITBs, it crested the 40mpg mark with low 15's at the track. THis is on a 1700cc flat-4...with 48mm ITBs. I find that most folks don't put much effort into tuning for economy, since the fine details of standalone usually go un-noticed. The only reason it is GOING to suffer, is the heavy foot







.
Heck, some of the good aircooled tuners are seeing 30+mpg on dual downdraft carbs...

Amen. Coupe runs mid 15's but is more than capable of running much faster, but i've got it tuned fairly lean, for decent mileage.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_There is no reason MPG has to suffer. It's all in the tuning.
CB Performance built a 'mileage' setup (the article is on their site), and when they put it on ITBs, it crested the 40mpg mark with low 15's at the track. THis is on a 1700cc flat-4...with 48mm ITBs. I find that most folks don't put much effort into tuning for economy, since the fine details of standalone usually go un-noticed. The only reason it is GOING to suffer, is the heavy foot







.
Heck, some of the good aircooled tuners are seeing 30+mpg on dual downdraft carbs...

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
this makes sense to me, which is why I argue with everyone telling me that my cars going to be a tank when all said and done
and also why I'm so curious to see numbers


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## FairyTail_Rabbit (Apr 11, 2008)

....(in my opinion) the info i find here seems to be from bench racers. And there are enough "sticky" post on vortex already. 

....everytime a carb is installed, an angel gets wings.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tekron for president* »_
yeah seriously I've looked WAY TOO MUCH in the past 6 months and found almost NOTHING!!!
I am building a 16v and it's going in quite soon, I'm motronic and want to go SEM + mild ITB's.... daily/college commuter

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3849088 
It'll get you the hardware, if you want to keep it on Motronic.. well good luck to you and I hope you know someone that can tune it.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/index.php?c=7
might be a helpful forum to anyone interested in 034

_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3849088 
It'll get you the hardware, if you want to keep it on Motronic.. well good luck to you and I hope you know someone that can tune it.

this is relevant to my interests







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I plan on using a somewhat similar setup


_Modified by Tekron for president at 1:42 PM 7-9-2008_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tekron for president* »_
yeah seriously I've looked WAY TOO MUCH in the past 6 months and found almost NOTHING!!!
I am building a 16v and it's going in quite soon, I'm motronic and want to go SEM + mild ITB's.... daily/college commuter

You've been looking for 6 months and found nothing? Must not be looking hard enough.
There are a ton of posts in this forum alone.
Here's mine from a year ago:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3176838
10mins of searching just this forum reveals:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3925762
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3597916
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3288760
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3610403
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3212140
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3348593
And that's just the first 2 pages of results.

Basically, if you're not mechanically inclined, or have a lot of patience, don't do ITBs. If you want to go the cheap route (motorcycle ITBs + MS) there will be a lot of fabrication to do, and a lot of hurdles to clear, and a lot of fiddling with MS, especially if you have no experience with EFI systems. Everyone seems to setup theirs a little differently, so there are many ways to do it, a single FAQ can't cover it all.
Your best bet is to check out what everyone else has done, ask questions, then go from there.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_
Basically, if you're not mechanically inclined, or have a lot of patience, don't do ITBs. If you want to go the cheap route (motorcycle ITBs + MS) there will be a lot of fabrication to do, and a lot of hurdles to clear, and a lot of fiddling with MS, especially if you have no experience with EFI systems. Everyone seems to setup theirs a little differently, so there are many ways to do it, a single FAQ can't cover it all.
Your best bet is to check out what everyone else has done, ask questions, then go from there.

thanks for the posts
yeah I'm more or less looking for a DIY for MS+ITBs, but I understand it would vary from my set up as well as other peoples since everyone does everything a bit different.
Are there some kind of benefits from getting different fuel rails? I don't get why so many people use so many different kinds.
I figure I would just use a 1.8t FR


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

also turns out I had seen almost all of those posts you listen haha
I can't believe people lose hp+torque for ITB's + ms


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

People get different fuel rails, usually because that's just what they happen to have laying around, or what they can get for cheap at the time. Some people don't mind spending a few bucks on a nice fancy looking rail.
I used a fuel rail from an AEB with a 4 bar FPR, because I already had it laying around from my other car (which was upgraded with a nice fancy looking rail) 
not sure if people lose hp from ITBs, if they do, it's most likely because they are still in the initial tuning stages. I think low end torque will suffer because of the short runners most people run with ITBs, but it should be made up on the top end. Possibly other mods need to be made to take full advantage of the extra air flow (ported heads, headers, cams, etc)


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

hmm I think you're definitely right about the head work.
because the people who were saying they were losing power just had cams and headers and such
my setup with have bigger cams, but also a port and polish, TT headers/stainless exhaust, etc.
I can't decide if I want to use my 276/262 Schricks or the 266/262s which are already in the built engine lol


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

anyone else ever see a setup like this?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, it's an ITB setup with a plenum. Came like that on a few Japanese engines, certain models of SR20DET and various Skyline motors come to mind.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_Yeah, it's an ITB setup with a plenum. Came like that on a few Japanese engines, certain models of SR20DET and various Skyline motors come to mind.

Don't forget 20V toyota motors! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

is it actually more efficient like the owner states?


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tekron for president* »_is it actually more efficient like the owner states?

Who knows. To many variables.


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

don't event hink about it if you don't want a hole in ur hood..... it will not clear - the can is on top of the radiator..
so if you want the typical vortex approved look, this is probably not for you


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (pr0zac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pr0zac* »_don't event hink about it if you don't want a hole in ur hood..... it will not clear - the can is on top of the radiator..
so if you want the typical vortex approved look, this is probably not for you









haha it'd clear if you used a different radiator hose and made the setup lower


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

Then it would have a hard time clearing the alternator - at least with the aba/ac setup.. there as a bit of space to 'clean up', but we didn't care at the time - its all about the 'go' not the 'show' for me.. we just made a hood scoop - encouraged the honda guys to play more that way anyway..


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

hahhah you must like giving the cops a hard time huh?








idk how I feel about cutting a hole in my hood, but I'm more than willing to change some under-the-hood arrangements for better airflow and performance.
is a port and polish/cams going to be enough ENGINE work for the ITB's to benefit a decent amount?
it seems like people with exhausts/headers and whatnot, like me, aren't experiencing very good results without headwork.


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

i used a stock 8v crossflow head, stock exhaust manifold and 2.5" exhaust. according to my windshield dyno (Gtech pro ss), the hp was not effected. the torque however went up between 50 and 75%. I attribute part of that to the plenum...
I was going to cam it and get some head work done, when i realized one important thing that most of the people in here don't even talk about. OUR CARS WERE BUILT TO HAVE TORQUE. if you want to increase your hp by porting the head (most of the time) you give up torque. if you increase your exhaust size to get better flow (keeping the rest of the engine stock), you give up torque to get more hp up top. I personally believe that a torquey car will kick the **** out of a high hp/non torquey car in the daily driven environment. Does that mean they would do better on a track? not always, but carol shelby thought so. he used to say "HP sells cars and Torque wins races."
Aftermarket cams have a tendancy to shift your power band higher taking your low end torque away. We kept a stock cam and enjoyed every minute of it. 
As a highway car, it was not as fast as a ported, cammed, high flowing engine, but that isn't where we spent our time driving it. We use the turbo quattro for that. I guess it all depends on what your driving style is. 
if you want a highway car, port and polish and maybe even think about 16v'n it. for around town daily abuse, i won't be swayed from the 8v for low down torquey goodness. Perhaps i should go get a deisel.








of course, now that block has a 16v head on it with a 3rd gen eaton m90 bolted to the side, but that's a different topic..


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

ahaha nice.
I have a 2L 16v with some minor engine work and a bigger intake cam, the new engine I'm putting in is a 2L 16v with slightly bigger cams(266/262 I believe) and a port and polish, 3 angle VJ, recent rebuild, etc.
I already have the close ratio 2Y so I should be pretty good low end. Also the cams aren't huge so it's not going to be a monster on the highway, but I'll have a bit more higher end power than the stock cams. and my 5th is the stock .91, so, I'm at 3000 doing 60.


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

this is a great link i found in the fabrication forums..
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/...s.pdf
after reading this realize you have a head that inherently has better performance up top than down low - exaggerating anything you do to that end..


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

hmm? as opposed to the 8v? doesn't the 16v have more noticeable power low down and then the 8v catches up up high? that is what I was always told

_Quote, originally posted by *pr0zac* »_
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/...s.pdf


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
*anyone reading this should check this link if you want to know the why's of ITB's and head work*


_Modified by Tekron for president at 9:05 AM 7-16-2008_


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

nope - sorry... its the exact opposite.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (pr0zac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pr0zac* »_nope - sorry... its the exact opposite.

Mhmm. I'm with you. I love my torquey little 8V.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

interesting... I always felt my 16v was good past 80, and decent down low... I have an ABA too, and I feel like it's the same feel but just slower. I've ran with other ABA's and mid they seem to keep up but then up high it's no question, so I guess that makes some sense.
also
I know our engines are good for high RPM's, but if it's going to be a daily wouldn't it be smarter to avoid the plenum idea and keep the power at lower RPM's?


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

wooh after a lot of thought I decided to go with stainless instead of aluminized TT cat back with a Borla muffler...
that's a few paychecks for me







plus I have headers and tips


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (pr0zac)*

I was trying to get the best of both worlds...
i think this explains it quite well.. taken from that link above..
Individual runner manifolds have no plenum. There is one throttle bore per cylinder and nothing connects with anything. These offer the best signal strength at low rpm, because the have the highest peak velocity through the throttle bore, but are very hard to tune in and induction pulsing at high rpm is a big problem. 
Due to the high peak velocity, IR set ups need a lot of airflow capacity. The basic carb sizing formula does not apply here. There could be 2500 CFM on top of a 350 cubic inch engine and it could run fine. This is because each throttle bore gets an induction pulse once every two engine rotations, so it's only in demand about 25% of the time. Plenum type set ups will allow other cylinders to use that throttle bore while other cylinders do not need it, so you don't need nearly as much airflow capacity. 

...............
by adding the plenum i was trying to get the engine to run better at higher rpm because when the itbs are open (high rpm - remember? means the throttle plates are open making a runner..), the induction pulses were available at all cylinders. I was also able to get more flow through 1 large filter than 4 small filters that would have fit under the hood. I was also considering boosting it with the itbs down the road - and a plenum is the only way to do that.. Not to mention the fact that i MAY be able to take advantage of the helmholtz resonator principle.
we did seem to loose power at about 5500 rpm with our setup, but everything below that was insane. To the point that the car had a learning curve to drive with the torque/throttle response.. 



_Modified by pr0zac at 6:12 PM 7-16-2008_


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm just getting to the talk of short intake runners on small engines... stuff is so interesting http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif thanks for posting that link
I want to know about the different fish in the water before I dive in


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

A good couple paragraphs in here about tuning with respect to MS, speed density vs. Alpha-N.
http://www.fuelairspark.com/Pr...q.htm


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (secondgen)*

The Conveluted Manifold on the end of the ITB's in this thread is Total BS! It does the total opposite of what ITB's is intended to do! In NO WAY can the Engine's Airflow be balanced across all 4 cylinders. 
Batched Fired Injection means all 4 cylinders are seeing the same amount of Fuel, they are NOT SEEING THE SAME AMOUNT Of AIR in this set-up! This set-up starting with #4-3-2-1 will produce less air in #1 than it does #4, air will also pool and Eddy at the end of the Plenum causing counter-flow characteristics that hamper flow on th end. 
Air is like water and follows the path of least resistance. The only way this will every work is if yo have Thermo-couples in each exhaust and you can Trim the Injector PWM for that Cylinder, or you have sequential injection so you can trim, and even then you still have a progression of flow LOSE across the cylinders with regards to "Available Air Flow" from the Plenum design. 
Don't care what the O2, Wideband says when your tuning it! If you tune the motor so #4 is Stoich, #1 will be very lean. If you tune the engine based on all 4 cylinders being 12.5 A/F at WOT, #4 will be very RICH and Down on POWER because of it, hence the engines Airflow is not Balanced. 
Each cylinder is a complete and Different Engine with regards to Airflow and fuel. If you treat it that way you can make some power!
With all this Said! It looks Neat as Hell!








Buttbump


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (buttbump)*

Toyota has a version of that intake on their Corollas, but IIRC, the runners are all similar length.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

hmmm


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (buttbump)*

the manifold on the end of the itbs is tapered (the bottom) to accommodate for the inconsistent airflow to the throttles.
when the itbs are open, it acts just like any other 'can' style manifold.
Unless youve done this, tested this or driven this, you have no right to call BS. you probably didn't even notice the taper on the can. and using your philosophy, 99% of the custom intakes with vr or mustang throttle bodies are total BS too... once the throttles are opened, this turns into a very similar setup.
I agree more engineering could have went into this, but i was focused on getting the car back on the road. The fact is we did it and made it work and tuned around any issues and drove this thing like we stole it for over a year with no problems associated with lean or rich conditions. When i took the head off, the engine looks consistent with decent tuning (head and pistons). We daily'd this car for over a year - and the only reason its not running today is because i decided to supercharge it..
although i do wish i could afford 3 more widebands to prove my point.


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

*Re: (pr0zac)*

i don't understand much about these things but with your very interesting set up which i will duplicate, what engine management are you using?


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (manfredwerner)*

megasquirt 1 board v3 and wideband


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

another dumb question: why $ for 3 widebands?
edit:
1. where would you put the other 3
2. is it just to prove that each cylinder is putting out the right AFR?


_Modified by Tekron for president at 11:41 AM 7-18-2008_


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

so i could install one in each runner of the header/ exhaust manifold to measure the o2 content of each cyl.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

that's what I figured... but you'd have to drill a hole in each runner haha? I didn't know people did that


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

When A Man Spends 50hrs in R&D and $1500 to Design and CNC this Manifold and it does the Very SAME thing as yours Does? It's Counter Productive to what ITB's are Designed to DO! 
Does it Work? Yes! 
Do people sell them? Yes! 
Do I want one? No!
ITB's Strength's lie in the Ability to Balance the Air Flow Across all Cylinders!
If I had your Car.............. Pull the Plenum, Tilt the Rad Back, Go to Individual Filters WITH SOME TYPE OF AIR HORN, and use a Heat Shield from the Top of the Rad back and down to Deflect the Heat Down away from the ITB's. The Tilted Rad Allows Cold Air to Come over the Rad to feed the ITB's! A simple mod like that will pay big Dividends to your Set-up!









Buttbump



_Modified by buttbump at 12:15 PM 7-18-2008_


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (buttbump)*

Thermo-Couples in each exhaust is different than 4 Widebands! Lot's Cheaper, they were used before Wideband or O2's were even invented!
If all 4 ITB's are pulling from open Atmosphere, then only 1 O2 or Wideband is Needed! 
People Seldom realize just how much time and Company Resources/$$$ go into a Manifold Design for a certain engine! That design takes into consideration all the Paramters of the Engine itself, something you or I can not do! When you ditch the Plenum it's all a Mute Point!
Trying to Help and Educate here Guys!


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

individual EGTs might provide some good info, and is a lot easier than installing 4 WB 02 sensors


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## pr0zac (Jun 2, 2004)

*Re: (buttbump)*

who cares what you would do if it was your car. and i wasn't refering to any specific manifold (good manifold for sake of argument however..) - i was refering to the many manufacturers selling parts on this and other enthusuast websites with similar designs to my 'plenum' (its not exactly an original idea). and i still call bs to your bs - unless you can travel over here and install this @#$ thing on another aba, we will never end this bull$i7..
BTW, if that person only spent 50 hours and 1500$ on r&d i would rather build it myself.... but i have fabrication friends and equipment and lots of time on my hands..
anyway... back on subject since it seems to be going away from itb's...


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i only want usefull info in MY THREAD.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

bump, keep it friendly







prozac you've been some good help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

This is why I don't tune into these forums very often! If you only knew who I really was.................... lets leave it at, your Manifold is hurting your Power! Friendly as I know how to be!
Later Gentleman!
BB


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (buttbump)*


_Quote, originally posted by *buttbump* »_If you only knew who I really was.................... 

http://www.kevinthornton.com/


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

Hahaha! Good One!








BB


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

hahah I had the feeling I was off
but thanks for the input!
from what I've read, I've concluded that it really depends on the engine and it's use as far as whether a plenum is efficient or not. looks to me like plenums are better for high rpm's... but I'm still-a-readin'.


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

I am older than that Kevin!







I still have the "color me bad" CD as well!








Read ITB Articles from Europe, and then Australia! They have been doing it far longer than we in the us have!
Research how NASCAR makes 750hp from 350cubes, breathing thru a 4 barrel Carb, then note how they "SHRINK" the 4 inner runners in size to increase the air Velocity compared to the 4 outter runners as to allow all 8 runners to flow the same amount of AIR, which balances the engine! 
Then go sit and watch a FAST River Flow around corners! Watch how the Sand piles up on the inner side, and the bank erodes on the outer side! It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to figure out that the only way sand will pile up, is there's no FLOW on the inner side of the bend! Keep Reading, you will get there! 
BB


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (buttbump)*

I only read 80% of the first page, but I saw you were having trouble getting a hold of someone from USRT.
Scott Williams is the Team Director.
Here's his info:
[email protected]
856-966-9155
..goodluck








I'm going to read the rest of this later.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

might have to send him an email later.
not so sure I want to buy a pre-made kit after seeing how much they go for, but it'd be worth a shot for a price guesstimate.


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

as I recall I think they originally guestimated them at like $1200...i think. I cant remember.
Let me know how much they are if you find out.
That guy Scott gave me the run around pretty hard for some graphic work I did for him once. I hope he handles his sales better then he does his contract work.












_Modified by Mucci at 9:07 PM 7-28-2008_


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

thats too bad
1200 doesn't sound too bad... I thought it was going to be around a grand too, but I'm pretty sure they were talking about keeping the engine with stock fuel management... I don't get how they were planning on working that out


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

They very well could have been $800 too. That rings a bell kind of. 
I dont know about the fuel management set up though.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

yeah, unfortunately I don't know anyone personally who runs ITB's so I can't talk to them about their thoughts and whatnot... I resort to this thread







I should probably just consider going turbo with an ABA bottom end and an 02J, but, I'm still stuck on ITB's


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

F that. I've been turbo and I still crave ITBs
I often loop the videos of that guy Gareth's 3.2L ITB Mk3 
Granted its a 6, but still.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated


_Modified by Mucci at 4:31 PM 8-4-2008_


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

haaha oh yes, it's a beast
not a lot of ITB'd 16v's out there







especially up here


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

Josh at "Nothing Leaves Stock" has built several sets of 16V ITB's?


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

yeah I know, but PA is a ways off








I'm talking like you don't go to a meet with 40-50 cars and expect even one car to have ITB's around here. it's mostly mk4's at all the meets in my area except for maybe the NEK meet in Peabody, MA.


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

Ahhhh I got ya! Well it's the other way around in Europe, all are running ITB's!








BB


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm pretty surprised, it just seems like such a "track thing" to do.


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## onelowvdub1 (Jun 29, 2008)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

bought my setup for 200 bucks and im running the stock management check out my thread on her to follow along if you like


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (onelowvdub1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *onelowvdub1* »_bought my setup for 200 bucks and im running the stock management check out my thread on her to follow along if you like 

now thats interesting








i'll bite.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

here's his thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3976796
buttbump I'm waiting for you to critique this one







for serious


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

Any updates from anyones projects?


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

work/school/drifting in leaves/silly hairdresser girl I'm hooked on = no time for mechanical studies


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

you mean ass-dragging in leaves


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: (Mucci)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mucci* »_you mean ass-dragging in leaves









yessss just like a dogggg


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## dmitry88 (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: (Tekron for president)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DTRguy (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_There is no reason MPG has to suffer. It's all in the tuning.
CB Performance built a 'mileage' setup (the article is on their site), and when they put it on ITBs, it crested the 40mpg mark with low 15's at the track. THis is on a 1700cc flat-4...with 48mm ITBs. I find that most folks don't put much effort into tuning for economy, since the fine details of standalone usually go un-noticed. The only reason it is GOING to suffer, is the heavy foot







.
Heck, some of the good aircooled tuners are seeing 30+mpg on dual downdraft carbs...

I read this and I although I would normally agree, on some situations this isn't the case. I have done two ITB setups and am working on third. Two are on 16v's the newest being an 8v. The latter two are both turbo. All of them are on stand alone management. The one I have the most amount of experience with has been fairly difficult to get what I call a perfect tune. Basically, I am not sure that is going to be achievable. The reason is the ITB's don't return as much natural vacuum as a regular throttle body does. What does this mean? Well, while driving, basically where most cars' can cruise at say 15" or better of Hg I will be at 5 or less. The moment you touch the throttle it is at 0 or in some sort of boost. Now, you can run somewhat lean in very low boost settings so long as the timing and such aren't too aggressive. So, I have worked very hard to get the proper A/f's so as to net decent fuel mileage etc. As well as get enough fuel at higher boost levels. The next issue is tuning the throttle enrichment. This has been probably the biggest issue. Basically, get it right on the road, pulling away from a stop can give issue and vice versa. In the end, I had to go with a richer setup to allow it not to stumble. Hours were spent driving around to nail it down. Still it isn't perfect, but it is very agreeable to the owner (who can be very persnickity). Eventually the car will be in the hands of a "tuner" though to maybe show me a thing or two about it. Maybe just maybe it can be made better. Anyhow, here is the engine bay:








The ITB's are Extrudabody with custom center bottom fed equalized plenum. It runs on an 034 stg 1c with 55lb/hr injectors and a GT28rs turbo. It is a 16v 2.0 ABA fully balanced and built internals.
It also should be said that the driveablility of these things are amazing! Throttle response is instantaneous. That is also a part of the not being able to get MPG. It basically wants to take off always!


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (DTRguy)*

F__k that's pretty man. Let us know how the "tuner" tackles it and the results.
And get some sound clips up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DTRguy (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Mucci)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mucci* »_F__k that's pretty man. Let us know how the "tuner" tackles it and the results.
And get some sound clips up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Thanks... actually I just noticed that is an old pic... when it wasn't done yet. It has like 300mi on it now. It runs @15psi for spurts now. Still running it in. You can't tell by the sound it has ITB's. In fact we are trying to make the car much quieter. Right now it has a small resonator and a Magnaflow muffler. Soon to add another Resonator to make it even stealthier. There is copious amounts of sound deadening in the car as well. I'll have to get more recent photos of the car. It is in the MK2 forum somewhere (the almost done thread). Somehow I wonder if a "tuner" will be able to get it much better than it is but I am hopefull. It is pretty swell drive now. Just would like to get rid of some glitches in various situations. Again, if you fix one gear, another goes lean etc. Meaning, what works great for first and second goes lean when you stomp third or fourth. So most of the tuning was done for third and fourth, and it just goes rich for moments in the lower gears. Probably better for traction anyhow as it loads up temporarily. BTW this car is Syncro


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (DTRguy)*

Jesus man, synchro too? You've done exactly what I would do with a mk3 and enough time and money. Exactly.
Bought me some rear wheel drive though, so maybe sometime down the line.


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## DTRguy (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Mucci)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mucci* »_Jesus man, synchro too? You've done exactly what I would do with a mk3 and enough time and money. Exactly.
Bought me some rear wheel drive though, so maybe sometime down the line.









Ha Ha yeah mee too! This is a clients car... I drive a 24v swapped 89 325i with "is" goodies all over it. I just put on my rally ready winter rubber








If I were to have a MK2 again... this is EVERYTHING that you could possibly do to one. Custom interior, all steel Rallye inspired widebody, custom suspension, Corrado dash swap, HUGE two piece willwood front brakes, power windows, locks, mirrors, alarm, custom stereo... like I said EVERYTHING... All in Black Magic Pearl.








The almost finished thread... Need to update it








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4060899 


_Modified by DTRguy at 10:40 PM 12-16-2008_


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (DTRguy)*

Thing sounds awesome.
I'm loving my E30. I've been wanting one for a while - just picked it up a couple months ago. I don't think I'll be going back to a VW any time soon.
She's got about 190k on the motor though. I'm debating whether to rebuild and boost, or swap. I got lucky, the PO took real good care of it for the past 8 years. He gave me receipts for over $16k in parts and repairs from when he owned it. Practically everything on it's new, including the paint.
I'm beginning to hoard suspension parts and wheels for a big install day come spring. I can't wait - this thing leans like woah.


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## bazoldskoolmk2 (Sep 4, 2008)

*Re: (pr0zac)*

sounds good mate, so if you fancy turbo or superchargin then the big throttle body and the short intake could be a winner?


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (bazoldskoolmk2)*

winner for what? off idle Bog, and no throttle Response? Careful with those Plenum Designs! Most are rich in one cylinder and lean in others!


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## DTRguy (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: (buttbump)*


_Quote, originally posted by *buttbump* »_winner for what? off idle Bog, and no throttle Response? Careful with those Plenum Designs! Most are rich in one cylinder and lean in others!

I was very careful to design a manifold that flowed nearly perfectly to all the cylinders. I had it flow bench tested and it was only off slightly it was reported to me (not enough from what I was told to make any sort of difference). In fact the inner two flowed slightly better than the outer, which I was worried that the outer two were going to get too much. 
Off idle bog can be tuned out to a large degree, I have done that, and throttle response in most situations is instantaneous.


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## buttbump (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: (DTRguy)*

good Deal! Nice to See people TESTING their Products before selling them! I stand corrected!
Buttbump!


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## DTRguy (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: (buttbump)*


_Quote, originally posted by *buttbump* »_good Deal! Nice to See people TESTING their Products before selling them! I stand corrected!
Buttbump!


Yeah I was really worried about this one as it is different from what I had been doing previously due to space constrictions. Honestly, most plenum designs (even factory ones) lack proper flow equalization. If you notice in the provided pics it is a center bottom fed and the sides are relieved. The BOV/diverter is directly above as to vent most evenly when the throttle close as to not change airflow entering plenum during that time.


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## Mucci (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: (DTRguy)*

Wouldn't you ideally want the DV/BOV pre-manifold so the air being release is drawn from the incoming charge pipe and not from within the manifold itself?
This way you're releasing "everybody's air" and not having to worry about singling out certain cylinders.


_Modified by Mucci at 10:54 AM 12-18-2008_


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## DTRguy (Oct 19, 2003)

*Re: (Mucci)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mucci* »_Wouldn't you ideally want the DV/BOV pre-manifold so the air being release is drawn from the incoming charge pipe and not from within the manifold itself?
This way you're releasing "everybody's air" and not having to worry about singling out certain cylinders.

_Modified by Mucci at 10:54 AM 12-18-2008_

I don't think it matters in this instance because of the ITB's and being that it is so centrally located it only vents off the air that is not needed and does it descrimanently so as not to rob any cylinder of the air that it needs to remain running, plus, when it is venting, it is when you are OFF of the gas meaning that you get that buildup anyhow and you are not needing any more air than you need to only keep the engine running during decel. The benefit from having it here is that your "air train" coming from the turbo is flowing all the way into the plenum so the moment the DV closes it immediately repressurizes the plenum, thusly removing any transient lag. Remember this is just the plenum, not the manifold, the manifold is on the other side of the ITB's.








And besides, there was no other place to put it that would work as well as here. You always want your DV to be as close to the throttles as you can to keep the flow coming as close to where it needs to flow into the head as possible before closing.


----------

