# Issues with front caliper flex with Tyrolsport stifening bushings



## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

Hi friends. To make the story short I send you a small review of the problem. I am having some brake issues (weird pedal feel and more travel) after installation of a ECS Stage 1(13.1in) Fr & 1R(12in) Rr BBK. Everything was done correctly, everything was new (rotors, pads, lines, Tyrolsport Fr caliper bushings, fluid), brakes and abs pump was purged several times using the right methods and tools.

Checking the problem I found some clearance in the Tyrolsport Fr brake stifening kit that I select to avoid the Fr caliper flex issues, I mean some vertical movement in the bushing around the caliper holes.

Check out the following pics:









Check out the pics 2 & 3 and you can notice a difference in the contact of bushings with the caliper metal itself. Right now I using the OEM rubber bushings and it work good when the system is cold, but as soon as the brakes get warm it start to allow caliper flex sending me the weird feeling again.

Then my big question is how can I correct this problem? anyone had the same issue?


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## DC Jetta Guy (Jul 31, 2004)

Ok, I'm familiar with the TyrolSport pin and bushing set - I've had them on my GLI for years and they work very well - no problems. Is your question saying you have a weird pedal feel with the OEM rubber pin bushings in place or with the TyrolSport bushings in place? Are you having clearance problems with the TyrolSport bushings and the new BBK setup? I can tell you the guys at TyrolSport are very cool about answering questions if you have problems like this.


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## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

DC Jetta Guy said:


> Ok, I'm familiar with the TyrolSport pin and bushing set - I've had them on my GLI for years and they work very well - no problems. Is your question saying you have a weird pedal feel with the OEM rubber pin bushings in place or with the TyrolSport bushings in place? Are you having clearance problems with the TyrolSport bushings and the new BBK setup? I can tell you the guys at TyrolSport are very cool about answering questions if you have problems like this.


Friend I was in contact with Michael Pancheri at Tyrolsport, he was a really friendly person and was helping me a lot with my issue. He told me that some clearance is ok due to mass automotive manufacturing processes, and the usage of the bushings showed in the pics is ok. He advice me too, about some hydraulic issues in the ABS module with ATE Typ200 & Racing Blue brake fluids. 
I changed the bushings for the OEM rubber ones with very little improvement with my brake issues :what:. I do that because was easy to change it and test, first. Anyway I will try another brake fluid in a near future, like Motul RBF600 for example, following Mr. Pancheri's recommendation. 
Basically the brake pedal feel in the morning is just like it should be, but 15min after drive the car, it becomes to be a get a little more travel, and get just a little worse after some spirited driving. All I feel is that the initial brake bite takes longer to feel (a little more pedal travel). Anyway when the pads are warm, the car stops really good. 
Well I will continue testing some other areas of the brakes to try to solve this weird issue.


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

What kind of pads are you running? When was your last fluid flush? Motul 600 is a great fluid, yes, and it's what I run in my track car... but VW branded DOT4 is PLENTY for a street car. Unless we're not talking about a street car..


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## DC Jetta Guy (Jul 31, 2004)

elio said:


> Anyway when the pads are warm, the car stops really good.


Maybe you answered your question right there? Try different pads?


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## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

Friends the last time I flush the brake fluid was 9 months ago, but my pedal feel issues was since first day I installed all BBK system. About the pads I used the OEM VW Fr pads with Mintex Red Box for the rears when fisrt I installed the ECS Stage 1 Fr and Stage 1R Rr BBK. After some months I change to Ferodo DS2500 for the front and Hawk HPS in the rears. That was more than a year and a half ago.
About the brake fluid I selected ATE Typ200 at first to get a little more heat capacity than OEM VW fluid and avoid the Racing Blue one to avoid some clutch sounds some people reports. But you are right VW Brake fluid is enough for the street.
When I comment about warming the pads, it applies specially for the Ferodos, when are cold inital bite is nice but not as good, but after 10min of street usage braking capacity come totally back and is great, it is a dusty pad, but it performance is amazing for light track and street usage. 
Finally my car is daily street driven, but I hit the track sporadic times on weekends. That is the reason I switch to Ferodos on front, ATE Typ200 Brake fluid and Tyrolsport stiffening bushings.


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## supermega1 (Oct 27, 2006)

When I upgraded from stock brakes to 20th brakes I had horrible pedal feel no matter how many times I bleed the brakes. Then multiple times I did the ABS purge with VAG COM and the pedal feel was still horrible.

It wasn't until I mashed the brakes and "manually" made the ABS come on that my pedal feel came back. Don't know why doing it that way over VAG COM helped but it did. I mashed them hard one day to avoid and accident noticed they where a little better and was surprised so I stood on the brakes a couple of times to get the ABS to come on and now the brakes feel great.

Also I have my brake fluid filled just a little over the "full" line.

20th Calipers front and rear
EBC slotted and dimpled rotors
Motul RBF600 (BTW cheapest place I found it was motorcycle shops)
Hawk HPS pads
SS lines + Clutch line.


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## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

supermega1 said:


> When I upgraded from stock brakes to 20th brakes I had horrible pedal feel no matter how many times I bleed the brakes. Then multiple times I did the ABS purge with VAG COM and the pedal feel was still horrible.
> 
> It wasn't until I mashed the brakes and "manually" made the ABS come on that my pedal feel came back. Don't know why doing it that way over VAG COM helped but it did. I mashed them hard one day to avoid and accident noticed they where a little better and was surprised so I stood on the brakes a couple of times to get the ABS to come on and now the brakes feel great.
> 
> ...


Friend I try the same test some times in the past and I got the same result after some manual ABS test like you tell me. Pedal feel was improved, but after some usage it comes back to the previous rare feel. I have almost two years trying to figure out what could be the issue. At first I thought the same thing brake system purge, but I have done so many times including the dealer too, that I really do not thing that it is the problem.

Basically I have two options, hydraulic or mechanic problem. In general the car brakes quite good, but as a summary all that I can say after all the tests that I have done is that when the is cold at morning it feels great for about 10 or 15 min @ 77ºF (25ºC) enviroment temp but after that the pedal starts to feel with more travel, of course to a limit. After some time of spirited driving if you try a fast stop you will notice like a one (1) second delay, more or less one (1) inch of dead pedal travel that the brakes applies very little stop force, after that it clamp almost inmediatly with great force.

As example is like apply the brakes of an old car with rear drums and front discs, that you remember that drums self adjusment mechanism was always not so good in adjusment capacity letting rear brakes with the typical "long" brake pedal feel. It brakes, always brakes, but always too with that dead brake pedal travel. That is the best example or simulation that I can tell you. As another tip this issue starts inmediatly from first day I install the whole BBK (discs, pads, SS lines, pads, etc...) at once.

I had various ideas or causes after all the common tests:
1.- ATE brake fluid issues (compresibility and lubrication) as many people had reported in the past,
2.- ABS inside circuits problems (bad seals),
3.- BBK could generate some kind of decompensation of the ABS EBD (electronic brake force distribution), maybe some difference ABS module coding for the new BBK,
3.- Tyrolsport front stiffening bushings issues (unadequate size, clearance or tolerance),
4.- Calipers or brackets deflection,
5.- Brake pads materials issues (compresibility), I found some reports of this Topic in Mintex Red Box ones.

Sorry to write you all this and bother you so much with this old story but you can't imagine how many things I have test, change and thought during this two years without a simple valid solution. It is really frustrating :banghead::banghead::banghead:.

Thanks a lot in advance to all of you for your help.


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## JayJetta (Mar 29, 2001)

I recently installed BRAND NEW R32 front brakes with steel lines & stiffening bushings as well, mk iv GLI VR6. The post above where you describe how your pedal behaves is exactly what i've been fighting with for 3 weeks now. I have to double pump my pedal to get any real bite from the brakes. 

When i first bled the system with my Motive power bleeder (15psi), there was this grayish goop that came out with brake fluid..mostly from the rear calipers. And the reservoir was dirty too. I bought the car used with 90k miles on it a few months ago. It looks like the car was running on the factory fill! So i flushed 2 liters, (yes 2 liters) of Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid through the system till it came out clear and free of bubbles but my pedal is still soft and has that inch of dead travel you described above. I have some Amsoil 600 but i don't wanna use it until i figure out what the F is going on, u know. 

I've changed my brake light switch to the new rev, ran the ABS reset procedure using the VAGCOM last night and my brakes still suck. I also confirmed that there aren't any fluid leaks at the master cylinder or reservoir...I plan to run another 2 liters through this weekend but this time i'll bleed the clutch as well and see if that helps at all. Tonight i'll try triggering the ABS with a hard stop...If nothing works i'm replacing the master and reservoir :banghead: 

BTW, my pedal was rock hard after i did the ABS reset with the VAGCOM. I read in another thread that a rock hard pedal could be a vacuum leak that would effect vacuum to the brake booster...I don't know how true that is though but i do know i have a vacuum leak somewhere. My VR sounds supercharged...it's NOT!


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## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

JayJetta said:


> I recently installed BRAND NEW R32 front brakes with steel lines & stiffening bushings as well, mk iv GLI VR6. The post above where you describe how your pedal behaves is exactly what i've been fighting with for 3 weeks now. I have to double pump my pedal to get any real bite from the brakes.
> 
> When i first bled the system with my Motive power bleeder (15psi), there was this grayish goop that came out with brake fluid..mostly from the rear calipers. And the reservoir was dirty too. I bought the car used with 90k miles on it a few months ago. It looks like the car was running on the factory fill! So i flushed 2 liters, (yes 2 liters) of Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid through the system till it came out clear and free of bubbles but my pedal is still soft and has that inch of dead travel you described above. I have some Amsoil 600 but i don't wanna use it until i figure out what the F is going on, u know.
> 
> ...


 I understand you friend. It is really frustrating. During more than 2 years I had this issue. But let me tell you something. During the last 4 or 5 weeks I have had too much work and I haven't had the time to change the brake fluid that was one of my last actions to find a solution for my case. Last weekend parking my car in a high ramp of a friend's house I need to pull hard the e-brake to brake the car at that position. After that day, dead brake pedal travel have been a lot less with a really better brake feel....... I was totally impressed with this. I don't know how and why but now brakes are really more confortable and reliable than before.

My advice is try to isolate the problem, this kind of issues could be due to a simple part or service procedure. At first many advice me to avoid change parts without knowing which part or parts could be producing the issues.

First if your brake pedal sinks after some pushes with car engine off, the problem could be in your brake master cylinder, if the pedal is too hard or rock solid with engine runing, brake booster or vaccumm line of brake booster could be affecting you. If everything was installed properly (pads, shims, etc.....) try to cycle the ABS pump using VCDS or VAGCOM, after bleed the brakes and finally bleed the clucth. That will need some liters of brake fluid. Try to test if the pedal feel remains the same with engine running and car stopped and/or have the weird feeling after 20 or 30mph. ABS EBD can affect brake pressures per side, specially MK60 or newer ones.
During my tests I come back from Tyrolsport stiffening bushings to OEM rubber ones, but difference in pedal travel is small, Tyrolsport ones will make a great improvement at heavy or repeated brake stops. Also I receive the advice that some very little clearance between caliper holes and bushing itself is normal due manufacturing tolerances and parts usage.
If you need more help feel free to ask.
Good luck


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

JayJetta: 
You have air in the system still, or you have a dying master cylinder (the most common cause of double-pump)... bleeding at 15psi on old seals may have popped one.


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## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

KG18t said:


> JayJetta:
> You have air in the system still, or you have a dying master cylinder (the most common cause of double-pump)... bleeding at 15psi on old seals may have popped one.


 You're right KG18t, that is the scene of a dying MC, using a pressure bleeder, 10psi is the max. But JayJetta your brakes are hard now or still soft? Reading your story I have the impression that your brakes was soft before bleeding and now are hard.


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## JayJetta (Mar 29, 2001)

Wow elios, the E brake pull fixed it huh?!? :screwy: The end of years of suffering. Congrats! Now to figure out how to end my suffering.... 

So i did the the ABS stop test from 40mph. On my first panic stop, no ABS. Just screeching to a stop. By my 2nd and 3rd tests though, ABS was working but i didn't get any pulsating in the pedal. I say the ABS worked only because there was no screeching and i could here the tires starting and stopping through my open window...but again, no pulsating pedal. At any rate, the brakes are still soft  

They've always been soft. They were soft when i brought the car home from the dealer but i assumed she just needed a good bleed. As per the Bentley manual, the max psi for bleeding is 14.5. I bled at 14-15psi. It's possible i could've blown a seal by playing near the max psi on a 6 year old master. I still intend to bleed the brakes and clutch again tomorrow night. For $10 of fluid its worth a try... 

As per elios suggestion, I tested the pedal with the car off and on the first push the pedal sank damn near to the floor. As i kept pressing it it hardened up till it pretty much felt normal. With the engine running, it's not hard. I'm immediately back to the inch of dead space. If my master is shot, why would repeated pressed of the pedal with the engine off harden the pedal? You said "if your brake pedal sinks after some pushes with car engine off..." but my pedal hardens after some pushes...I'm confused again... 

I've suspected the master from the start, but want to know for sure b4 i spend $300 for parts and such. Would you happen to know where i can find the brake line plugs from the repair kit. I have a part number for it but NO ONE is selling it - 1HO 698 311 A. I'm gonna start callin around today. 

Thx for all the help! :beer:


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## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

Jay maybe you damage one of the MC seals, not all. As KG18t said probably 15psi could damage that old seals. About the MC if with the car engine running you pressed it hard once to a first max point and maintaing pedal pressure it sink a little more, your MC could be bad.
But first try to bleed brakes as best as you can, you should have an MK60 or newer ABS module, the secuence is LF, RF, LR, RR.
About the brake line plugs I haven't see it before. Try contact Mr. Zeb Foster at www.1stVWparts.com , maybe he can help you.


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## JayJetta (Mar 29, 2001)

With the engine running i can def push a lil more past max point. I'm still going to bleed it all this weekend. I'll report back.


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