# naturally aspirated rabbit



## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

Whats the most horsepower you can get outta a naturally aspirated rabbit???? it would be nice if someone could post a dyno ....
P.S. no juice either


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## studio19sound (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: naturally aspirated rabbit (bunnyhopin)*

This has yet to be determined, really. I think, though, with a chip, intake, exhaust, light-weight-pulley, and header (all of which are available now), you might be pushing between 160-170 hp to the wheels, and a possible 180-190 ft/lbs....these are rough numbers, and really no one has dyno'd this set up exactly, so we don't know.
What the 2.5 really needs are re-designed cams to make more power. ITBs would be a nice one too. Neither of these have been developed yet for this motor, so if you want big power, go turbo.


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: naturally aspirated rabbit (bunnyhopin)*

I'll let you know soon, finishing up a water/alcohol injection system this week, then on to the dyno. I'm expecting to hit 200 hp and about 200+ ft-lbs torque. I have custom intake short ram, evo header, custom downpipe with 200 cell metal cat, custom. 2.5' exhaust (when I say "custom" I mean stuff I made and installed) and a REVO tune with timing setting of 6 (93 0ctane) now the water/alcohol injection is so I can run that 93 octane setting with 87octane gas...looking forward to Vics new product...should give another 10 hp or so....who needs a turbo??? down the road, high compression pistons and cams...?? by the way, my mileage increased to 33mpg with "normal" driving. all very exciting!


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: naturally aspirated rabbit (whatsyourbeef)*

WOW thanx alot for the info keep me updated ... im debating wether or not to turbo or an alternative 


_Modified by bunnyhopin at 6:13 PM 4-23-2008_


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## KampfGTI (Mar 28, 2007)

how are u using water/alcohol injection in a non turbo?


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## dumbassmozart (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (KampfGTI)*

I'm pretty sure water/meth has benefits for any engine, as it cools the air and increases combustion. WWII aircraft made use of it, though some of them were supercharged. 



_Modified by dumbassmozart at 11:51 PM 4-24-2008_


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (dumbassmozart)*

how much?


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

as in for the set up


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

water alcohol injection cools the charge considerably, in any application, so much so that detonation is not a problem with the most advanced timing, anyway, I've put an injection nozzle in the pipe just before the throttle body, when a new intake manifold comes out for this engine, I will create a spacer (phenolic) between the throttle body and the plenum for the injection nozzle so it is after the throttle body. After it is running I will keep bumping the REVO timing setting up.








i used pieces from Spectre intake piping, the nozzle is placed in the MAF Sensor hole of the Spectre pipe.


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

don't know if i answered your question how much? I'm using the windshield washer tank for now the washer pump is good for 60 to 70psi so it is adequate. the washer pump is controlled progressively by a motor controller using the 0-5 volt signal from the MAF sensor... so far, the parts cost about $40 I make my own mixture using denatured alcohol and tap water (filtered) 60% alcohol / 40% water by volume. hope that is what you were looking for...


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## daemontrym (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

Whatsyourbeef I think thats a pretty cool mod there, I have seen supercharged 3.8's in fieros with meth setups because of the clearance of putting the intercooler. They work well and am interested with the gain you get from them. If you look at AUDI4U's post about his untuned custom turbo build you will see a place that made him a dual stage manifold.
I think if we took that manifold got rid of the 2nd injector bungs for each cylinder and made the runners alittle longer it would be a nice gain for the 2.5. Coupling that with an bored out throttle body, cams, rods, higher comp pistons, and better tuned software. I think you would set a pretty nice pace. Im just waiting for our aftermarket to unfold. 4k for a turbo kit is steep.


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (daemontrym)*

I don't want to spill the beans, but things are coming. I've used water injection in place of intercoolers for a long time, simply put, it works better! it would also be interesting to use the second injector ports for direct water/alcohol injection, not using fuel injectors, however. it could easily be run with a stand alone fuel controller utilizing MAF, rpm, etc. as they do now. IMO this engine will prove to be one hot powerplant when all is done....


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## daemontrym (Feb 13, 2008)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

I am not doubting your setup man
I am just saying I have seen it before
But if you look in that post they have a company who sold those and I agree replacing the nozzles and making a custom fuel rail would be interesting for your setup. Then running it with an inline fuel pump.
You have good ideas man 
If you look at more of the threads though the 2.5 shares a lot of commonalities with the 1.8T. THat can help with rods getting higher comp pistons I am not so sure about that. I haven't read enough on it yet, I plan on building up a nice motor and keeping this one stock until the build is finished.


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (daemontrym)*

There isn't much new, just new applications of existing ideas. As far as an intake manifold, I played around with design, for this engine we would need some long runners and a large plenum. Vic at EVO has measured the OEM manifold runners and they vary in length as much as 5 inches! no good for performance or efficiency! any number of stand alone controllers would work... I agree MegaSquirt would be an ideal choice due to cost and programmability. if you notice, I don't go for fancy, just function, for my intake I used 3" radiator hose instead of silicon couplers (3x the price of rad hose) My water system controller was homemade for about $15. Got the design from an electronics mag, bought the components at RadioShack or Ebay...you could go buy one from Devil's Own $200 just for the controller!
I'm fortunate in that after 45 yrs of working on cars i have all the tools, spare parts, pieces and memories of doing things many times before success. It all comes in time...new items are still being developed for the first 4 generations of Golf....we all just need patience, as you can see from Vics efforts with the EVO header, great products come costly, in time and money.


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## Erik04gti (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

chip intake and a cat back i went 155 whp and 180 lb/ft of torque... for the OP


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whatsyourbeef* »_water alcohol injection cools the charge considerably, in any application, so much so that detonation is not a problem with the most advanced timing, anyway, I've put an injection nozzle in the pipe just before the throttle body, when a new intake manifold comes out for this engine, I will create a spacer (phenolic) between the throttle body and the plenum for the injection nozzle so it is after the throttle body. After it is running I will keep bumping the REVO timing setting up.








i used pieces from Spectre intake piping, the nozzle is placed in the MAF Sensor hole of the Spectre pipe.

Is that your crankcase breather hose right below you water injection nozzle on the intake?


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (Audi4u)*

yes, that blue tube is the vent hose from the oil filter bracket. the inside of that tube has no residue at all, don't know how much oil vapor actually is vented. Can't be much, I'm at 7000 miles since my oil change and the dipstick level is right where it was after the change...


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

Yea that breather has some kinda valve setup in it. I think it only opens under pressure.


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (Audi4u)*

when i took it apart, it has a large hose but a very small diameter restriction inside the hose, about 1/8 "...


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whatsyourbeef* »_any number of stand alone controllers would work... I agree MegaSquirt would be an ideal choice due to cost and programmability. 

How many injector drivers does megasquirt have?


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (Audi4u)*

Blackforest has a meth kit out but im not sure if it is for the rabbit or the gti whats the deal?


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (Audi4u)*

from their info it looks like it can control up to 12 injectors with specific hardware configuration.


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*

its all in the contoller and what it reads, the hardware would be universal; the tank, nozzles and pump, the controller will use boost or vacuum, MAP or MAF for the signal.


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

Does it show anything for 5 cylinders?


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (Audi4u)*

not specifically, its 4, more than 4, or up to 12, don't know if they can handle odd numbers, but if they have a software/hardware configuration for up to 12, I would guess 5 should work...don't know for sure


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## dubass (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

Wow whatsyourbeef you have some good **** going. its cool to see some people getting right down to it with the 2.5s. My last dub was a 98 ABA, (essentially the final evolution of the O.G. VW 8v) and they are still messing with it to this day. I think you are pretty ahead of the curve right now. 
I'm real curious to see what cams look like for this motor when they come out. I never thought I'd say it, but I kind of miss the way my 276 made my old car idle!


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## rental_metard (Jul 17, 2006)

Your paving a way for a lot of people to jump on board whatsyourbeef. I can't wait till I see your dyno numbers


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (rental_metard)*

Got a firm day and time for a dyno run this friday, as soon as i am home, the charts get scanned and posted...I can't take credit for any of this other than knowing how to apply whats already gone before, and it sure is fun!!


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## happy vw bunny (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

Dyno sheet has been on the Web at AWE tuning.
My rabbit was used as their prototype for their custom exhaust. They also installed my GIAC chip. Here is the dyno sheet following both installations....








Hope this helps!


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## rental_metard (Jul 17, 2006)

wow. impressive gains. I think that just sold me


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## dumbassmozart (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (happy vw bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *happy vw bunny* »_Dyno sheet has been on the Web at AWE tuning.


I think whatsyourbeef's dyno will be a little different with his headers, high flow cat, and meth injection.


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (dumbassmozart)*

some great info im just waiting on LNT for that turbo ... hurry up


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (dumbassmozart)*

sorry for the delay with the dyno run, got bumped again till yesterday, dropped in on the shop and , since i drove over an hour, i got an impromptu run, 3 actually, but no chart as the printer was not working...on a Dyno-mite, never seen one of these machines before...numbers as follows
178 HP, 204 ft-lbs torque!!! I think the intake Vic is working on will bump that considerably! I'm amazed at the pull in 3rd, 4th and even 5th gear at highway speeds! I love this car!


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

OH Yeah, that dyno run was on 87 octane pump gas, see what water injection can do for you! I'll try one soon with 93 octane gas for comparison....Vic, where is that next part??


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

is tuning needed for the injection or can i just slap it on and go?


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## Crubb3d Rymz (Dec 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

DAAAAAAAAAAAMN whatsyourbeef







NICE numbers! especially the torque















178whp is pretty damn good considering the cams, intake manifold, and compression are all stock. the 2.5 seems like it has a whole lot more potential than i thought http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by Crubb3d Rymz at 10:14 AM 6-4-2008_


_Modified by Crubb3d Rymz at 10:15 AM 6-4-2008_


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Crubb3d Rymz)*

I think the numbers were low on the hp side due to the fuel leaning out at WOT and above 5k rpm...i am seeing an AFR of 16-19 at high revs and wide open throttle, so the engine is starving for fuel. i think if the AFR is were it should be at around 12-13 for wot then i would have seen 200+ hp. A local tuner is working with REVO to solve that problem. I have the REVO software. 
we ran the car up and down the hiway under every combibation of fueling and timing that REVO has available for my engine application. not much change in the AFR under any of those combinations, so we were thinking some change in the software for higher fuel delivery...we will see!


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## Crubb3d Rymz (Dec 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

16-19 = a little too lean for comfort


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Crubb3d Rymz)*

yeah, downright scary! i was worried my pistons would be running out my tailpipe! but no other symptoms, car seems to do fine, but needless to say, i'm staying off the accelerator...


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## conejoZING! (Nov 25, 2007)

*Re: (bunnyhopin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bunnyhopin* »_some great info im just waiting on LNT for that turbo ... hurry up

LNT Turbo... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
it's going to be massive. they are really working on it and finding out everything about the 2.5 Engine.


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## Outie5000 (Aug 8, 2007)

megasquirt


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

so i could rig up the spray and send out my computer to get this software?


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (bunnyhopin)*

the injection system has its own contoller based on MAF sensor output, you can adjust it to your own liking, totally independent of your ecu


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## Crubb3d Rymz (Dec 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

does the injection start only when at WOT? im very interested in doing something like this, it would be nice to steam clean the inside of the combustion chambers while creating more power







but that leaning out really steers me away. ill be watching this thread closely for updates, whatsyourbeef http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

o werd so ware can i order this?


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Crubb3d Rymz)*

there are two controls on the unit. for an NA motor, the signal wire of the MAF output is used to control the start point of your injection, then there is the incremental / rate of injection which is progressive. so you control the start and amount of injection...


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

so, received new injectors, 250cc/min versus the oem at 190cc/min. all the lean afr numbers have gone away, now running at 10.5 to 11 at WOT, initially, my idle speed jumped to 1300rpm but has now settled back to normal(700), however, my rev hang has gotten very bad!, it doesn't just stay at the rpm you just shifted out of but climbs for a second before settling down. anyone have an idea about that. It is definitely time for a VAG com program to adjust some of this stuff. otherwise no problems with the new injectors, running a slight bit rich now...


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## dumbassmozart (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

Where are the plans located for your Meth kit? I'm pretty good with google but I can't find these.


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

yea i cant find the it either???? ... i got an 08 and my car does the same thing when i drive aggressively the rpms jump when i hit the clutch and hang like a bitch


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dumbassmozart)*

what plans are you asking about, i cobbled a bunch of stuff together for my set up, are you talking about the controller? there are several of the shelf that would work well...


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## vwgtipowr (Aug 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

Do you have a schematic of what you have done?
This is all with out modifying the ECU software?
Nice work. 204lbs torque! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (vwgtipowr)*

exactly


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## dumbassmozart (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whatsyourbeef* »_what plans are you asking about, i cobbled a bunch of stuff together for my set up, are you talking about the controller? there are several of the shelf that would work well...

I think I may have found an off the shelf controller. What is the activation for your setup? Is it reading RPMs or is it using vacuum?


_Modified by dumbassmozart at 12:40 AM 6-27-2008_


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dumbassmozart)*

it uses the MAF signal of 1.6 to 4.6 volts as the activation signal for the controller. 
here are 3 links for controllers and a how to page with a diagram for installing
http://www.alcoholinjectionsys....html 
http://www.coolingmist.com/det...oller http://www.alcohol-injection.c....html http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

ok so whats the safest amount to spray? without lean or any of that nonsense


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## dubass (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (bunnyhopin)*

its not so much the amount of spray, but the amount of advance on the timing. the meth is just intended to reduce risk of detonation with super-advanced timing. if you don't advance quite as much you wont need as much spray... or the upsized injectors...


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## bunnyhopin (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dubass)*

o werdd


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## dumbassmozart (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (bunnyhopin)*

So what was the 250cc/min injector swap like? is it more than plug and play?


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dumbassmozart)*

Some folks predicted dire consequences for doing the swap, well, the swap was very easy, about 30 minutes, however the new injectors required new connectors, readily available, the swap cured the lean out condition, no idling problems, but it did make the rev hang a little more pronounced. a local tuner is working on that with me, may be just a tweak in the program with VAG com....so far, happy with the results.


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## dumbassmozart (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

Very cool I'm glad to hear that it worked. Are they OEM injectors? where'd you pick them up?


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## rental_metard (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whatsyourbeef* »_ but it did make the rev hang a little more pronounced. a local tuner is working on that with me, may be just a tweak in the program with VAG com....so far, happy with the results. 

If that is the case please let us know, I would love to get rid of it


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dumbassmozart)*

injectors are Genesis, i ordered them thru 034 Motorsports, or USRT will get them for you also.


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## rare (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whatsyourbeef* »_a local tuner is working on that with me, may be just a tweak in the program with VAG com....so far, happy with the results. 

VAG COM is a diagnostics tool and not for tuning. I don't think this has changed. If he is using their cable to communicate with the ECU that makes sense. What software is your tuner using to manipulate the ECU? IMO the VW world needs open source ECU tuning. I want to custom tune my car for my mods. I don't want to buy more "software" (a new map) every time I change a part.


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## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (rare)*

actually, not tuning per se, just trying to find a way to turn off or adjust the rev hang, although my ecu seems to have settled down now, maybe it learned to adapt to the new injectors cause the rev hang is not any different than it was before.


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## TXwabbit (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (whatsyourbeef)*

UPDATE


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