# '84 GTI fuel injector insulators (holders)



## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

I removed the old (look like factory original) fuel injector "insulators" from the head of my '84 1.8 JH 8V. I'm referring to these:









I found thin 'fiber' washers under each one. However I don't find replacements for the thin 'washers' (seals?) anywhere. Anyone know if there is supposed to be something in-between the plastic insulator and the head?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

yes, it's there to help seal and prevent vacuum leaks.


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## Zhorik (Feb 9, 2014)

Original part cost about 2.5 euro...


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks. Oddly, I have not found any mention of them on the various retail sites that sell CIS parts.
Where can they be purchased? Is there a part number for them?


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## Zhorik (Feb 9, 2014)

063133555A Injector insert (vw-classicparts.de oem 9,90 euro,vw-heritage.com 11,60)

Seal set - https://www.vwheritage.com/shop/gol...-8v-1-8-2-0/?crumbStartPage=1&crumbStartRow=1

I think dont need to order low quality torpan seals if you have some local hydraulic shop, just go and tuck up you needed :laugh:


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

Thank you, but unfortunately those are not what I am referring to. The ones that I found under the insulator cups (injector holders) are not any of the ones for the injectors themselves (as in the link provided). They were made of some sort of thin fiber or paper product, much like a typical gasket. And they went between the outer base of the plastic insulator (where it steps down) and the recess in the head (where the insulator cup rests)...not on the actual injector.
Here are pictures of what is left of them (they broke apart when coming off) and where they were located:


















These measure about 16mm X 19mm. I see the later '2-piece' style holders (insulators) have a O-ring about the same size that goes between the two halves of the insulator, but they are rubber. Mine are not rubber, I can see the plys of fiber where they are broken.
The VW parts diagrams do not show anything like this for the '84 style injector holders / insulator cups (which I believe are specific to '84 only).

Any input is greatly appreciated.


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## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

GAP sells them
Here
They are under the fuel injector holders category and listed with the holders you bought.
:thumbup:


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

That is it, thank you.
Is it correct that '84 is the only year for that style of injector holder?
More importantly, does this type of holder utilize the injectors without the little "hat" on the tip?
Thanks.


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## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Dr.Jeff said:


> That is it, thank you.
> Is it correct that '84 is the only year for that style of injector holder?
> More importantly, does this type of holder utilize the injectors without the little "hat" on the tip?
> Thanks.


From what I have seen only the GTI's (JH Motor) had this style of injector holder and were early air shrouded heads.

And they fit injectors *without* the top hat and lower small oring

As we corresponded on a couple earlier exchanges, the air shrouding designs and injector holders are a bit confusing and the components are a little bit of a challenge to source. Last time I ordered from GAP, I just bought 4 of everything just to be sure. 

I am currently running Early MKI GTI holders in my MKII head with brass Mercedes injectors. So far so good with decent power, idle, and economy.

:thumbup:


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks again. In the prior correspondence on this subject I explained that the vehicle came with two engines (one is a good '84 GTI JH, the other a blown 1.6), one CIS-basic system (from the early 1.6), and several boxes of parts from various engines / years. I've found a lot of contradicting and erroneous information regarding the '83-'84 JH as well as the different CIS systems. But I finally found the correct injector holders (as pictured above) for the JH engine, and sorted out the CIS-basic system that is going on it (a bit of a hybrid to fit the early CIS to the JH head). So, as you mention, this combination has been a difficult and frustrating journey getting this far. Every now and then I still run into little questions like these 'gaskets' or seals for the holders. The 'non-capped' injectors almost don't fit these holders without considerable force so I just wanted to confirm they are correct.
Thanks.


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## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Dr.Jeff said:


> Thanks again. In the prior correspondence on this subject I explained that the vehicle came with two engines (one is a good '84 GTI JH, the other a blown 1.6), one CIS-basic system (from the early 1.6), and several boxes of parts from various engines / years. I've found a lot of contradicting and erroneous information regarding the '83-'84 JH as well as the different CIS systems. But I finally found the correct injector holders (as pictured above) for the JH engine, and sorted out the CIS-basic system that is going on it (a bit of a hybrid to fit the early CIS to the JH head). So, as you mention, this combination has been a difficult and frustrating journey getting this far. Every now and then I still run into little questions like these 'gaskets' or seals for the holders. The 'non-capped' injectors almost don't fit these holders without considerable force so I just wanted to confirm they are correct.
> Thanks.


I understand your frustration and dilemma.
CIS is old tech and about most fooling with it stopped about 20 years ago.
I have a 1.7 and I am pretty sure it has the early non shrouded injectors. From what I have explored the GTI JH was sort of a hybrid in that it had shrouding incorporated in an altered earlier head design.. I only found these injector holders when I was tearing my RD head apart and replacing things with the head off.
I mostly mess with CIS-E so some of your initial inquiries were slightly outside what I was familiar with.
Glad you found what you need and hopefully you have sorted out the cornucopia of CIS boxes.
I have yet to go through mine to organize my spares to the different generations. I have a couple Basic setups, a couple CIS-E, and a few CIS-Motronic I plan to make a few hybrids with as well.
:thumbup:


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks again for your support. I like the 'CIS-basic' for its simplicity, however my prior experience with Bosch electronic injection has been with the more complex ECU type systems on other vehicles so there was still a learning curve. But the principles are the same and I've actually enjoyed playing with this set up...to an extent (it does wear the patience thin at times). I think the general lack of parts availability is the biggest obstacle. And unfortunately relying on used parts has been very disappointing, especially with less than honest sellers on the Vortex. I don't want to bash it but my experience here has not been that positive when compared to the other specialized automotive forums I've participated in. That is why I've appreciated help from certain individuals like yourself.

Regarding the '83-'84 JH design, it is an air shrouded head but does it differently than the later designs. There is a small 'nipple' fitting on the head (another impossible bit to find a replacement for) that connects to the intake manifold. It leads to a tunnel between the injector mounts (in the head casting) where air is drawn past the injector holders. Simple but not totally effective. I was tempted to bypass it by utilizing the earlier style injector holders but found they do not fit the JH head. The diameter of the early holders is different than the JH air-shrouded ones, which are also different than the two-piece later style holders. The injectors themselves seem to be the same as the earlier 'non-capped' items, but they fit into the holders much differently than on the non-shrouded holders (which is why I questioned if they were the correct ones, but I realize the later 'capped' injector could not possibly fit). The way the injectors are pressed into the the holders (on the JH) almost obscures the tip of it. Seems like it would have an effect on their flow characteristics.

Another problem area I've encountered is with Bosch fuel pumps. My old one was completely locked up and full of debris so I located a NOS replacement. It turned out to be bad, apparently from being knocked around on the shelf all these years. In an attempt to save some money I tried a non-Bosch replacement, which was the wrong pump (3 bar rating, not 5 bar). Next I purchased a new Bosch replacement from a major supplier that sells genuine German made units. Found out Bosch has completely restructured their catalog, using just a few part numbers to cover a very wide range of applications. The pump is a different size physically and has different fittings, but they provide 'adapter' parts to make it sort-of fit. Well, it too is not the correct pump (also a 3 bar unit, as used on the later CIS systems). Unfortunately pumps are not returnable once touched, so I've had to eat the cost on all three! I contacted the Bosch technical people but they have no answers, other than to verify that everything I am doing is correct and "I must have received a rare bad unit"....three times? I'm still at a loss how to get a correct pump for these high pressure CIS-basic systems. Maybe this should be a new thread subject.


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## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

In my last reply, I forgot to answer the question.
Yes they brass, or any of the early "hatless" injectors will fit.
Though, especially with the green viton orings they take brute force.
I tend to opt for the black Orings, and try to swap mine out while the motor is warm and the orings may be pliable.

Your pump dilema concerns me on any future stuff I plan.
I can say, my brother had no issue with his pump he bought from GAP. But his is the large diameter (~65mm?)
If you are ordering these from the Rock-Auto, Partsgeek, or Autozone secondary sellers you are probably being pointed in the direction of the Digi II pumps. They are smaller (~56mm) and are only 3 Bar. My guess is the pump size being a match and limited demand has caused distribution and/or Bosch to shrug the supply off as an acceptable alternate which as you have found is not. If your 3 had a barbed hose end outlet, you have the Digi II pump. 

If it does not look like this
But you can confirm via your receipt, you were sold a compatible pump for a MKI, then I would demand and RMA and get your money back as it was false advertizing. Seeing you bought three, with them refunded you could then afford the OEM from GAP










:thumbup:


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

To add some info on the pumps:
The first one was an original NOS item from 1980 that had been sitting around a friend's shop all these years. It had the old part number (even before they updated with a superseded number in the late '80s). Frankly it had been tossed around a lot and was stored in a outside shed in the desert heat for several years. So I'm not surprised that it had issues. Looks like the internal bypass valve is stuck open, preventing full forward flow. I only paid a favor for that one so no real financial loss, but sucks the same.

The second one was from a discount online seller. It was totally misrepresented. Turned out to be a China clone. Completely bad right out of the box. That retailer has very specific policies and won't do anything about it...I'm out the expense. But I'd recommend to never buy from here: http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/

The third was a genuine Bosch, German made, current inventory, correct part number (according to their new catalog) replacement for the CIS-basic...even states it is rated at 5 bar in their listings. However when I received it and saw that it did not have the same physical dimensions, I opted to bench test it on a fuel pressure test rig first. Turns out to be a 3 bar pump. That's when I contacted Bosch. They verified it is the correct replacement part (based on the P/N stamped on it, from their new system of offerings) and that it should be 5 bar. We discussed the test procedure I used and they confirmed it is the same procedure they utilize. When told the outcome of the test, they sounded dumb-founded and said "it must be bad". I'm currently waiting for them to authorize the retailer for a refund...we'll see.

I have some links to Bosch technical docs if you are interested. One shows their new system of pump replacement part numbers with specs. However it appears the actual pumps are not meeting those specs. These new replacement pumps are not the old "vane" style, but a "turbine" type (different internal design). I suspect they are just selling these instead of the 'correctly' rated pumps for financial reasons. I'd be interested to hear if others are having these issues. Frankly the engine may run on a 3 bar pump (I have not tried it on the engine, just bench tested it), but the air-fuel ratios will not be correct due to the completely pressure dependent design of the CIS-basic system. The pressure I'm getting is barely enough to open the fuel injectors, with no return flow volume.

I am tempted to either try a Walbro replacement pump (I've heard good things about them), or possibly one of the remaining Bosch "040" performance pumps (unfortunately they are made in the Czech Republic, but are rated at 8 bar so maybe they will actually put out 5 bar?)


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

i have the new superceeded bosch fuel pump (smaller diameter with rubber gap insulator)
it works fine

replaced the factory original 1981 fuel pump with this one.

i suppose youre correct the new pump may have *slightly* different specs but still within cis management


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

Actually there is more than one superseded replacement number for Rabbits depending on what Bosch source you look at. I'm not sure why or what the differences are exactly, but the new 'replacement' pump I received was not within specs and did not work on my CIS-basic system. I did finally receive a refund for it however. Now I'm unsure what pump to buy.
Do you have the actual Bosch part number from the new superseded pump you got?


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

Dr.Jeff said:


> Do you have the actual Bosch part number from the new superseded pump you got?


the information i have

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...art-FIXED!&p=79589205&viewfull=1#post79589205

i have the original vw fuel pump number in a book in my car in the garage
can get that to you this weekend


but the fuel pump itself i gave to someone who needed a working one to test in his cabriolet



btw 1 bar - 14.5 psi
3 bar would be 43psi
5 bar is 72psi

in a direct line to the fuel pump you should be reading no less than 75psi according to vw specification

this will however change based on amps supplied and received to the fuel pump


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## Dr.Jeff (Oct 30, 2013)

The link to your older thread had the part number for the new pump you bought, it is the same one I recently got.
As you note, 3 bar is only 43 psi. And that is what the new replacement Bosch pump measured when I received it. Which is what I've said...they are not correct for the Rabbit specs...despite what Bosch claims them to be.
I noticed you replaced your injectors with non-VW spec items. It MIGHT be possible that those MB injectors open at a lower pressure and therefore the lower pump pressure will work with them. Or perhaps your Bosch replacement pump had a greater output than the one I got (you did yours 2 years ago, maybe they've changed). Your thread noted that you were not able to actually measure the pressures, so hard to tell.
I'm not sure if I should buy another Bosch pump and hope it has the correct specs, or try something else.


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