# suspension madness MK1 hill climber



## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

So, I have this cabby hillclimb car I have been working on forever. I made a nice 4130 cage for it and made a few pieces then lost momentum. 
I had some spare time over the holidays so I got crackin'
I drew up an autocad sketch of a prototype suspension system I (or actually VAG) designed using B series (passat, dasher etc. VR6) driveline parts some months ago. After sketching it all up, I realized that the larger B series cars are just stretched A cars, so long story short, I designed a set of control arms that fit Vr6 "B" series carriers, spindles and axles on the A1 chassis. The real news here is not drastically increasing the strength of the drive-line but that I I was able to widen the track by about 10" using stock VW geometry. Ya, so building these arms are like sticking a A1 body on a Passat. This brings the cabby dangerously close to the magical 1.6:1 WB/track ratio that is so desirable, all while maintaining proper geometry and using stock offset wheels. 
The longer arms are made from burly 4130 tube and ended up 1/2 pound lighter than stock which makes me giggle like a school girl. 
I didn't check the tie rod angle to make sure I didn't get some bump-steer but that can be resolved easily. 
I will post a few pics tomorrow of the arms (forgot cam today) 
here is the car for starters, more to come.


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## killacoupe (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (ftwelder)*

that shifter is something else








looks good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Rallymech (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (ftwelder)*

Will this car be legal with any sanctioning body? 4130 is a no no in the US rally world. My other question is why would you go through all this work when you could have started with something much better? Are you fond of reinventing the wheel?


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## Eganx (Apr 30, 2004)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (Rallymech)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rallymech* »_Will this car be legal with any sanctioning body? 4130 is a no no in the US rally world. My other question is why would you go through all this work when you could have started with something much better? Are you fond of reinventing the wheel?

I'm sorry sir, you must be confused. This is the fabrication forum, not the MK4 forum.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

You can drive anything you want in hill climb racing so it is very legal. I had never seen a A1 10" over stock width with proper geometry. I didn't realize it had already been done. 
I have had a really long career and worked at the highest levels on the craziest stuff. Building what others desire is my job. Rally is a game of regulations, resources and consistency. I have a "real" rally car in my shop. It's cool but hardly interesting or challenging from a constructors point of view.
I spent some time trying to pry damper information from rally "authorities" and while the conversations were interesting (more like endless insults to each other), no-one could tell me anything beyond the most basic stuff, I couldn't get that rally guy who mods the Bil's to take a few measurements so I could figure it out myself. Dude, I write my own suspension patents and calculate wheel frequincies. We aren't playing on the same field. Is that cool with you? 
I am having fun and feel inspired. LMTFA
OK, moving on. First is a pic of the tacked arm. I figured I should check it for correct axle fit before welding. I grabbed a B wheel just see how it looked. I am getting the nearly the full 100mm travel before the tire would hit the metal of the fender. 
The second pic is with the wheel removed. The arm fits much the way the stock part. I designed this around a special bushing at the front. I don't think it will fit common VAG rubber parts. It's a compound that I trust for this type of application. The axle shown is a stock B chassis VR6 unit. Nice fit at the tranny, good job (patting self on back again) 
The third pic in the tubular arm I built. Thanks in advance for the harbingers of fiery death. You may notice a bolt sticking out of the stock pivot pin. This is so thrust washers can be used on both sides of the rear bushing. The arm fits the B series angled bearing at the hub. I will be placing the sway bar (I will make this too) under the hood so no mounting points have been installed as of yet. 
I might even weld this together today if the angry mob can be dispersed in a timely manner. 

























_Modified by ftwelder at 5:59 AM 12-29-2009_

_Modified by ftwelder at 6:00 AM 12-29-2009_










_Modified by ftwelder at 7:07 AM 12-29-2009_


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (ftwelder)*

I think I've seen pics of your rabbit before, a long time ago perhaps?
The cage looks REALLY nice. Beautiful fit up!
And the A-Arms? WTF. Those are hot. Very hot. I've been wanting to make a set for my Jetta, but not certain I trust my design skills enough for suspension parts. Did you make the plates that hold the ball joint by hand? Or are they laser cut? Those look real nice! You planning on heat treating the arms?


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (Agtronic)*

very cool.


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## nmrado (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

As usual, Frank, that's looking great. Are you going to change the upper strut mounts to gain a bit more caster or make any other geometry changes to the suspension setup?
I've actually been designing some control arms for my Corrado that will allow for the use of 17x10s and 275 tires. The design I'm using is very similar to the Southern California Cylinder Heads a-arm design. It may limit the steering angle slightly, though. Here's a screen shot of the design -


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (Agtronic)*

Beautiful A-arm frank..... Inspiring me to get my Caddy started


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

thanks guys, The tube is normalized and the structure won't be heat treated. It's much stronger than the original piece but still can be deformed in a crash. I have been working on this car for a couple of years. I am really not in too much of a hurry. I will be chopping out the shock towers and installing something that allows king pin angle and height adjustment. I am going make a micro-adjust for the bottom of the strut for camber adjustment. 
I like that rod end design. Mounting a sway bar might be sorta funky but you can make some really interesting geometry and weight distribution changes by altering the lengths. 
TIG welding that cage took quite a while, The junction above drivers head is something I am quite proud of. I used to build off-road cars. I just love triangles. I made the pieces by hand but have a DXF for the parts. I can send you my sketches if you like for use on your own car. 


_Modified by ftwelder at 2:06 PM 12-29-2009_


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## Fusor2 (Mar 16, 2009)

i came buckets looking at those A arm welds


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## old school a1s (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: (Fusor2)*

Those a arms are sick! I knew those would be a work of art.Need to get my 80 scirocco in the shop and get going on the build of it.That was my first thought after you left on Monday.I`ve been putting it off for so long.


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## Withidlehands (Nov 29, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Frank its quality like this that has always made me want one of sinisters bikes. One day I hope I will be able to budget getting the new frames. Your an amazing fabricator dude.


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Withidlehands)*

I have no idea what the hell you were taling about in that post with the pictures, but those are some damn fine welds so carry on.


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## weiRtech (Jan 17, 2006)

nice work frank. in for more pics!


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (weiRtech)*


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## nmrado (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

Frank, have you looked into designing/fabricating some knuckle spacers to change the angle of the LCA and raise the roll center a bit? Looking great!


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

I figured someone would catch that LCA angle. I have thought about it quite a bit. I watched a lot of hillclimb races and some of the tracks are pretty bumpy. I am torn between large wheels and a big change at the spindle or small wheels and a greater LCA (near stock) angle. The hills are steep and low enough gears might be easier with 14's and big brakes aren't that important when going up-hill. 
thanks! 
I am thinking about modding a set of knuckles (by cutting two sets and welding the longer tabs on the set with longer nubs) and dealing with it that way. I am not sure how much it will really need to be lowered and how much wheel travel I am willing to give up. 
The small circle a couple inches down the shock shaft is the actual A1 upper shock mount and the damper is a stock A1 damper. The ride height shown is sagged quite a bit. I would like to know what % of wheel travel is usually used for sag in the various disciplines of sports car racing. I am thinking about 40% is a decent figure for rough pavement. 
I think the wheels on that sketch are 22 or 23" OD. Fairly large. 


_Modified by ftwelder at 5:46 PM 12-30-2009_


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

*FV-QR*

i REALLY like where this is going. ive had a similar idea for quite a while but will be nowhere near able to attempt it for a long time.
keep up the good work.


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## crazyreturns (Nov 22, 2007)

*Re: (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/4229189908_bb93283cfb_o.jpg

The welds are gorgeous! Watching.


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## mej3 (Sep 26, 2003)

*Re: (crazyreturns)*

I dont know, those welds look a little too consistent. I think there's too much quality in that. Why reinvent the wheel and do things right and think for yourself!? As a fan of your work since the Yeti and Spooky Days...I'd say stick to what you do best. Wait...That's fabrication and making amazing stuff. Ok, Carry on!


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## Rallymech (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (ftwelder)*

A sanctioned event will have rules and technical regulations. The question stands, will your 4130 cage pass tech? I am a licensed Rally America Scrutineer and I have seen several people build away without knowing if they will be allowed to compete.
The reason that you got flamed in the other forum is because you said that you were building a rally car. What you have would suck for rally.
If your aim is to build cool stuff (or reinvent the wheel) you are succeeding! If your aim is to compete you need to be sure that you are legal.
Robert.


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## MuffinMan101 (May 12, 2007)

*Re: (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_


















such beautiful welds!!!!


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## sriracha (Aug 6, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR*

so awesome!
i've been into mountain bikes for a looong time. it's cool to see frank the welder working on a mk1. nice work! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
4130 FTW! just curious, why is 4130 not allowed in rally?


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## turoc (Mar 11, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (sriracha)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sriracha* »_so awesome!
i've been into mountain bikes for a looong time. it's cool to see frank the welder working on a mk1. nice work! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
4130 FTW! just curious, why is 4130 not allowed in rally?

Too much heat weakens it.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (turoc)*

4130 is legal in many sanctions. If heat is used for bending or forming it will alter the condition of the material (soften, make brittle etc,). 
The other issue is in Rally, the potential of beaning a tree or something solid and immovable at full clip is very real. One of the jobs of the cage is to absorb the energy of the impact and 4130 welding into a structure is very difficult to deform. Racing safety rules are created based on history of incidents rather than engineering for the most part. It's hard to fault that logic when lives are at risk.
A constructor can save a great deal of weight using materials properly and stay within the rules. I would bet money that at the top level, there is very little 1018 to be found anywhere in a rally car. This is pure speculation on my part. 
There is a huge amount of false information in circulation regarding 4130. I have handled tens of thousands of pounds of the stuff and burned a million feet of filler welding it. I have also seen people going 180 mph in the most pathetically constructed WST cages imaginable. 
I looked at a 1000 HP NHRA approved 200mph dragster (fox body mustang) that had a fully assembled cage, not attached to the car at all, not the floor, nothing. I have zero confidence in the process that produces these type of things. 
I could be mistaken but I am pretty sure I have never called my car a rally car. I made inquiries regarding rally suspension. I really want to make the car street legal, just not sure what state/country I will have to move to.. LOL..




_Modified by ftwelder at 3:05 AM 12-31-2009_


_Modified by ftwelder at 3:15 AM 12-31-2009_


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_ I really want to make the car street legal, just not sure what state/country I will have to move to.. LOL..

idaho.


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## nmrado (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_I am thinking about modding a set of knuckles (by cutting two sets and welding the longer tabs on the set with longer nubs) and dealing with it that way. I am not sure how much it will really need to be lowered and how much wheel travel I am willing to give up.

Do you know if the hubs are cast steel or cast iron? Welding extensions onto the sectioned knuckle seems much more viable if it's cast steel. I've had decent luck with welding cast iron, but I wouldn't trust it for a knuckle.
If you're going to run small OD tires, it may be OK to just leave the knuckles alone.
Keep the progress comin' along. Happy new year, too!


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## turoc (Mar 11, 2003)

The rest of the world allows 4130 - just not the US


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## weiRtech (Jan 17, 2006)

you can always move to canada frank. we have lots of hills for climbing and mountain biking on.


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## weiRtech (Jan 17, 2006)

just out of curiosity, what filler are you using for 4130 frank? er70s-2 or er80s-d2? or something different?


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (weiRtech)*

ER70S2 or S6 for applications where it is not going to be heat treated after fabrication. I am doing a job now that gets heat treated and I keep the 4130 wire and 70 series WAAAY separated. The 4130 filled weld will crack if not heat treated.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (turoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turoc* »_The rest of the world allows 4130 - just not the US

I disagree. It's quite the opposite. I always thought that the only place we saw 4130 was in NHRA, aircraft structures, and bikes.
WRC (top rally class) is organized and governed by the FIA (which to me is at the very top of the racing world). And the FIA does not allow alloyed steels for use in roll cages.
I don't want anyone to think I am against the stuff. It clearly has its place, and has proven itself for many many years. (I ride BMX and the only bike I haven't broken has been my 4130 GT). I just think that it's important for people to understand its properties and learn how to work with it correctly before fabrication critical parts. Obviously, that is not directed at Frank the welder, (who has probably worked with this stuff longer than many of us have been alive).


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## turoc (Mar 11, 2003)

You are right!
I was thinking of T45.
BTW, Did I meet you up in Tall Pines? If so I am the guy that brought up the DMS


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (turoc)*

Ah, there ya go!

_Quote »_BTW, Did I meet you up in Tall Pines? If so I am the guy that brought up the DMS

Who is this directed at? If me, you have the wrong guy. I'm not really sure where Tall Pines is or what a DMS is.








And Frank, this picture makes me giddy. I can't stop staring at it. I love the fitup.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

thanks, I use a chop saw to mitre tubes. I use a modified dewalt 14" carborundum chop saw and a 20" disk grinder. I mitre a tube in seconds, shooting sparks and dirt everywhere. 
Thanks for the compliments.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

And how do you cope the tube ends?


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## Flavourless (Jun 23, 2001)

*Re: (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_And how do you cope the tube ends?

i would really like to know this as well. the fitment on the copes are beautiful.


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## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: (Flavourless)*

nice work bump!


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## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: (mudanddust)*

also what kind of setup do you guys use to miter at sinister?


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

looks like ur off to a great start, cant wait to see it all done.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

Looks pretty cool so far! I love the welds on the LCA and I like that you're using stock balljoints, I've considered building an arm like that but have never seen it done before http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_










If those black lines are for the kinematic roll center, they're a little bit off. The upper line should be perpendicular to the _strut _axis, not the steer axis. When you correct it, you'll bring the roll center up a little but unfortunately lengthen the Instant Center length and effectively reduce your camber gain. 
What's the light green line drawn through the spindle bolts and lower balljoint?
The strut axis is used for instant center and roll center calculations. The steer axis (upper mount to lower balljoint) is used for scrub radius, kingpin inclination, and caster.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (Afazz)*

thanks for that info, I will hit the books after work tonight and figure that out. The green line you mentioned is just something to allow me to move the knuckle around. Just an extra line really. I make everything into blocks and move them around. I taught myself autocad and while I use it a lot, I really don't know the correct way to use it. 
To answer the sinister question, Sinister is a brand and I am one of the people who make their bikes, my company is "frank the welder" and my bike brand is "FTW industries" . I have a small armada of Bridgeport mills that I use in conjunction with rotary tables and special vices to "cope" or mitre tubes. I also have several specialty machines for making bicycle frames.


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## weiRtech (Jan 17, 2006)

so you must have a jig of some sort on those rotory tables? by special vise, i assume a sine vise? i can see doing a simple fish mouth on that up to a certain angle, but i can't picture doing the long angled ones.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (weiRtech)*

I am causing some confusion. for bikes, or any production type job for a really long angle on a tube mitre I might profile it from the side on the CNC or use a ball end. I will show you chop saw technique with a short film or pics.
I do have lots and lots of special fixtures for tube work.
as far as the suspension geo, thanks I sure missed that.. fixing it really lowered the RC quite a bit. I think it will help with the camber loss I was getting since I angled the strut up a bit also. I will have another look at it a bit later..


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

Ohhh, yeah if your control arm is past parallel with the ground it will _lower _the roll center. If it's above parallel it will raise the roll center. When I said in my first post it will raise the roll center I wasn't paying attention and assumed the control arm was above parallel. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Passenger Performance (Nov 11, 2005)

I've found small horizontal mills to be quite handy for narrow angle tube coping.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Passenger Performance)*

another awesome post Frank. I always love your updates, and your build quality.
would love to see pics of your shop if possible.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (Passenger Performance)*

lathe also. the horizontal is ideal however
OK, this pic makes it look like my fab shop is totally cluttered LOL. 
on the left foreground is a mill that is use to mitre the 90* cuts on the seat tube and down tube of bike frames. I have several special arbors that fit a hole saw directly to a 3/4 collet. 
Right foreground mill does the top tube cuts on the special vice (tilts and swivels a multitude if directions) closest to the camera, the other thing behind it on the same machine is a fixture that holds a down tube for the head tube cut. It's mounted on one of the rotary tables I mentioned. 
the mill on the left, background is now set-up for a part that looks like a bicycle fork. It's mostly for seatstay tubes on bikes. Also on that mill has another device for holding the down tube for "third cut" (seat tube)
Back against the wall is a 1" plywood rack for hanging bike tooling. I build most of my tooling from really heavy stock, hanging them on the wall makes they easier to handle. 
I also have a couple of lathes set up for reaming the head tube, seat tubes and a special Marchetti bottom bracket (crank hole) facer/chaser in that room. 
If you look through my flicker site you will see pics of many, many machines. Over the years, I have invested every extra $ in used machinery. During the "sell your country to china" program of 08/09 I flagged down trucks and bought machines right off. I have acquired entire machinery inventories of factories and if timed right, were free but required removal of everything in the building. I associate with a group of "like-minded" individuals who I can call and will show up with tools, rigging and trucks and we reduce everything to hardware and stash it or trade for manpower. A combination of a poker game and destruction derby. Now, if someone needs some type of industrial help, I get the call. 
I have a pasta factory contents available if you guys are interested. large ovens (OMG I forgot I could powdercoat with those!!) 
My objective is to be able to perform and required task that has to do with fabrication. With conditions as they have been, it has been pretty easy to do while not going into debt. I get a few people who just show up with amazing machinery/goods just looking for a good home.


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## weiRtech (Jan 17, 2006)

seeing your shop makes me think i should move mine back home into my garage. looks like you do some unusual setups for sure! is all this stuff still 3 phase? i had bought an old belt drive bridgeport like the ones you have and sold it to my brother. it had been converted to 110. a retired guy had it in his garage along with a pile of other stuff i got for next to nothing. he was 89 and still using it!


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (weiRtech)*

ya, 3 phase, there must be at least 1000 amps of service in the building. We are in an area of vermont known as "precision valley". there were several big machine tool makers here so these old machines are all over. My oldest mill is a 1900 Babbitt-way horizontal. 
I work with a couple of old-timers who do my punches and T&D stuff who are the "real deal" and do stuff with an amazing degree of precision. One guy who works for Ruger is know locally as "the Maestro". It's nice seeing a part with no tool marks and to size.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_










OMG!







Will you adopt me please?


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## a2lowvw (Dec 17, 2000)

*Re: (wantacad)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wantacad* »_
OMG!







Will you teach me please?










fixed

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## kingslinky (Sep 13, 2007)

dang frank, what weekends can we see the car at the hill climbs in the spring?


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

still collecting parts.


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## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_










I think I love you.
Not you, Frank, but the shop. It is beautiful. And at my current level of non-skill, quite probably lethal.








I'm at a total loss on where to even look to find someone or somewhere to teach me some of these skills...


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

Your shop is insane! I wish I knew what half of those machines were, and how to use them!


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## weiRtech (Jan 17, 2006)

you need to drop by my shop markku.
not to thread jack, but frank, you gotta see this suspension... 7 feet of travel!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_F7QrR4Ur8


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (weiRtech)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weiRtech* »_you need to drop by my shop markku.
not to thread jack, but frank, you gotta see this suspension... 7 feet of travel!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_F7QrR4Ur8

actually its 14 ft of travel








Frank. i'm familiar with your bike's, but you should post up some of your stuff on here.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_still collecting parts. 

Whatever I can help with tell me and its in a box to you Frank


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

Everyone else loves you..... Well I hate you! haha, Wish i had the space to start trying to aquire stuff like that. Amazing shop!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## diablerouge (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: (nubVR)*

What transmission are you using? From that shifter it looks like you'll be using a cable shift tranny. Do you know if any of the B series axles bolt to the 020 transmissions and use the same spline size as the 10.1" brake sized knuckles, and are longer than the mk2 axles? Picking up some inches on the track would be nice. I'm working on some parts for my hill climber as well, but I'm down here with the PHA.


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *diablerouge* »_What transmission are you using? From that shifter it looks like you'll be using a cable shift tranny. 


take a closer look, 020.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (diablerouge)*

I am not sure about that. I have a set of axles that are the same OA length as the B3 VR6 and have a smaller spline.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

a HUGE sheetmetal shop just closed close by here. They have stuff you can't even imagine. Time to go shopping soon..


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## dubrubbin81 (Dec 2, 2009)

why dont you come up to pa with one of those bridgeports for me


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (dubrubbin81)*

Ever go to the Munson, MA hillclimb? Pretty brutal when I went as a kid, i will try to find a link somewhere.


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: (Dave926)*

I have not, go ahead and post it!


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

Frank, anything interesting in that sheet metal shop? I will be in Jersey next weekend. I wonder if I can reach out to VT on my way down!


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

they are moving some of the pieces to another division in the area. I was told that what remains will go for scrap prices. It will still be some time though.. They must have 10 or more press brakes. The place is huge.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Dave926)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dave926* »_Ever go to the Munson, MA hillclimb? Pretty brutal when I went as a kid, i will try to find a link somewhere.

I think you've got the wrong kind of hill-climb in mind...


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (ftwelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_I have not, go ahead and post it! 

http://foxbrosracing.com/index.html and http://www.quaboagridersmc.com/mc.asp?page=1 
The hill itself is pretty brutal. The first stage isn't too bad, but then there is a 25ft flat spot and the next section is sometimes referred to as the "Graveyard." The sucker is nearly straight up and down.
I have only gone when they do bikes and quads. You have got to see the Banshees run with like a +3ft extended swingarm when the launch. Talk about a 25ft cloud of dirt.








Then the ******** show up with custom framed bikes, 4ft swing arms and a 88ci h-d engine


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

yea, wrong kind of hillclimb, thats a bit too ******* for rabbits.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ftwelder* »_ I get a few people who just show up with amazing machinery/goods just looking for a good home. 










well, when you run out of space give me a call, I think I can put some machinery to good use









_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
What's the light green line drawn through the spindle bolts and lower balljoint?


I'm not too sure exactly what you're referring too, but of course balljoint and kingpin angles should be outlined in sus. geo... but a line that goes through the lower ball joint and top mounting on the knuckle is usually used to help locate wheel center be definition.
This is pretty cool, as a chassis designer I only see this stuff at work, its awesome to see ppl taking this kind of engineering into their hobbies










_Modified by GTijoejoe at 8:31 PM 2-12-2010_


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## summitoker (Oct 28, 2006)

great thread more please!


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

I have a bunch of new images to post up when I have some room to breath.


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## old school a1s (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

Sorry Frank, I`m not around to check out your stuff in person please get some pics up Mothers day weekend usually ascutney mt hill climb is around then.


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## chippievw (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: suspension madness MK1 hill climber (Eganx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Eganx* »_
I'm sorry sir, you must be confused. This is the fabrication forum, not the MK4 forum.


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## summitoker (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: (ftwelder)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

anything ever come of this?


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## racingvw92 (Apr 17, 2003)

This the kind of fab thread I enjoy reading. Subscribed with email updates! :beer:

Cant wait to see the finished project


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