# What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?!



## lappies (Apr 10, 2006)

I cheaked the live timing and scoring with about ten laps to go on the web. and one by one the message board said Kristensen, luhr ect into the pits and then a message saying Audi withdrew all there cars from the race with 9 laps to go? HUH! WHY what happened or went wrong?
Only six cars finished the race, all 6 mercs!







now Spengler is tied for the points lead with Mattias....


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## CoupeS_1971 (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (lappies)*

Häkkinen and La Rosa eliminated Tomczyk and Ekström. So Audi decided that this wasn’t the way they would like to race and withdraw their cars.


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## .:RDriver (Oct 4, 1999)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (CoupeS_1971)*

Audi's explanation.
http://www.speedarena.com/news...shtml


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (lappies)*

I just posted the same release as Jimmy on Fourtitude, plus the release from the DTM series. I haven't seen the Merc release yet. You can see the DTM release along with the Audi here...
http://www.fourtitude.com/news...shtml


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! ([email protected])*

All I can say for Audi is thank god their not in NASCAR, where that style of driving(especially on the short ovals, and even road courses) is the order of the day, and at Daytona and Talladega(the restictor plate tracks), 10-20+ car pile ups are the order of the day.


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## Ragtop ASI (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (chernaudi)*

DTM is not Nascar.








I have been this weekend in Montmeló's circuit enjoying my friends of the Club Audisport-Iberica and encouraging Audi.
I believe that Audisport's decision to withdraw the cars of track was succeeded and gives us an exciting final race in which the championship will be decided.



_Modified by Ragtop ASI at 4:31 AM 9/24/2007_


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (Ragtop ASI)*

The bumps may have been some honest mistakes in aggressive situations, but I'm sure to Audi in the heat of a championship run (and the race where this could have been locked up), it appeared differently. 
Given Mercedes' own recent F1 predicament, I can also imagine that the aggressiveness to succeed is compounded. It has not been an easy year for Mercedes motorsport.


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## Quattroplay (Dec 19, 2004)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! ([email protected])*

That is an interesting point. But if you have followed DTM, MB has always attempted to cause "incidences" to derail Audi. Otherwise, Audi dominance of DTM would be complete. MB has not necessarily been playing fairly or in the spirit of competition and has been noted for some dirty tactics since 2000. Audi probably finally got fed up with their tactics and decided to make a statement. More power to them! MB can ill afford bad press since they were caught with their pants down in F1 stealing documents. MB's ethics in motor sports are highly questionable and require being called out! MB realizes that Audi has won the motorsport wars in the last 10 years with Le Mans giving Audi legendary status among motor sports. Let's hope Audi rips MB apart and teaches MB a lesson by winning the series and the manufacturer's title at the next race. It would be only right and justice would be served as to the cliche that is Mercedes-Benz. MB's nose has been up in the air too long and it hasn't realized that its been passed by.


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (Quattroplay)*

If anything, M-B's nose has been in their butts this year, and if they're not there already, Audi and the FIA(as much as I dislike to near hatred the latter)will do everything they can to stick their whole head there!
On the F1 thing, M-B and Ron Dennis/McLaren should of know that in the present day(technology, and with that dimwit Mosley running the FIA-please don't ask me what I think that it stands for since the Balastre ran it in the '70s, and Mosley from the '90s), that they couldn't pull what Arrows did to Shadow in 1978(stealing detailed info, and the FIA let them go. Granted, McLaren didn't steal the info, but still, Ferrari has successfuly argued that McLaren possesed their IP on that stuff.).
On DTM, Merc should remember that this isn't exactly NASCAR, even if they owned 50% of Chrysler until a few weeks ago.
And speaking of Chrylser, that tie-in has really helped with the quality of M-B's products, now hasn't it.
I'd rather own a M-B over a BMW, but then there's Audi! Who probably would destory M-B at Le Mans/ALMS if Mercedes tried to race there.

_Modified by chernaudi at 11:33 PM 9-24-2007_


_Modified by chernaudi at 11:34 PM 9-24-2007_


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## grmncarfan (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (chernaudi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chernaudi* »_ Audi and the FIA(as much as I dislike to near hatred the latter)will do everything they can to stick their whole head there!


Just so you know, DTM is not sanctioned by the FIA. In fact, Audi don't participate in any FIA events.
Also, I want to point out that tieing the DTM fiasco to the F1 scandal is totally pointless. Yes MB are in on both, but the Stephneygate is a McLaren internal thing and has nothing to do with MB, while in DTM it's HWA running the show for MB. Two completely different entities.
As for the Bercelona race, I watched it and it was a bunch of individual racing incidents. Mika made a mistake, he admitted it and got penalized for it. Ekstrom was driving dirty himself. If he didn't push the Merc into the grass, he wouldn't have gotten taken out. I was very disappointed by Audi's decision, very inapproiate and very unsporting to do DURING A RACE. I won't comment on the beef between Audi and MB, but the race itself was fine. The fact that Audi didn't pull out their cars until Tomczyk retired said it all.


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## grmncarfan (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (grmncarfan)*

The new DTM is as popular as it is, is because there are a lot of actions. I wouldn't watch it if the rules were super strict. With only 2 manufactuers that will only result in boring racing. DTM could reduce contacts in a race, but then there won't be any overtakings at all. The cars are so evenly matched that it's pretty much spec racing. Just because race cars make contacts in a race doesn't mean it's NASCAR. It's good hard racing, it has what's been missing in a lot of series/championships these days.
Contrary to popular belief, NASCAR is very well operated and sanctioned. I'm by no means a stock car fan, but there's a lot DTM can learn from NASCAR. There's also a lot DTM can learn from the Australian V8 Supercars (only 2 manufacturers, but extremely popular and very entertaining).
As for dirty tactics, namely team orders, it's inevitable becauce of one flaw: althought there are different teams under each banner, Audi and MB run and own the entire field. Audi is just as guilty as MB, they said themselves that DTM is a team sport (as in soccer or basketball). 2 races ago at Zandoort, Audi team-ordered Premat to back off at the finish line to give the win to Tomczyk, who was a championship contender in a current car. It was an ugly and hearbreaking thing to do to a young driver who drove a brilliant race.


_Modified by grmncarfan at 4:37 PM 9/25/2007_


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## heel_toe (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (grmncarfan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *grmncarfan* »_2 races ago at Zandoort, Audi team-ordered Premat to back off at the finish line to give the win to Tomczyk, who was a championship contender in a current car. It was an ugly and hearbreaking thing to do to a young driver who drove a brilliant race.

_Modified by grmncarfan at 4:37 PM 9/25/2007_

They do this same thing to the pensioners in ALMS...they'll tell Marco or E.P. to back off and let Dindo or Allen win to keep their points alive despite an amazing race run by the former team. I've seen Porsche do it too.
Contact in racing is fine, but when half the field is taken out there's a problem. Multiple cars on either side being retired due to contact is ridiculous. Contact and the need for race-tape...now that's good racing.


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## grmncarfan (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (heel_toe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *heel_toe* »_ Multiple cars on either side being retired due to contact is ridiculous. 

1. Before Audi called it a day, there were 7 cars that were out: 4 Audis and 3 Mercs. Not uncommon in a DTM race.
2. Out of the 4 Audis, 3 made contacts with the Mercs. Timo Scheider was taken out by a Merc, whom he was blocking. IMO it was a racing incident. Tomczyk made contact with Mika, Mika was out immediately but Tomczyk stayed at 6th for quite a while until a technical problem, whether it was due to the contact earlier is unclear. This Audi could blame MB for. Ekstrom was taken about by a Merc, but they were side by side at the time, had he given the Merc the racing room instead of pushing it off track, he'd have been fine. This one was dirty driving from both sides.
3. Audi didn't make the call until Spengler passed Rockenfeller for 3rd. Had Rockenfeller stayed at 3rd and made it to the podium, Audi wouldn't have made the call. But truth is, Rockenfeller was indeed slower, and Spengler's pass was a clean pass. Spengler owned the corner and was defending it. 
4. Audi just didn't have the speed that day. Yes Tomczyk was on pole, but behind him were 2 rows of Mercs. He wasn't running away after the start either, the Mercs caught him pretty quickly.
Overall I thought the race was okay until Audi pulled their cars out. There were some questionable moves from both sides, but IMO withdrawing was uncalled for. Out of the 3 indicents that made Audi withdraw (Tomczyk's and Ekstrom's retirements, Spengler's pass for 3rd) , they could only blame MB for one of them.


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (grmncarfan)*

And what about the third manufacture that's supposed to be in the series as stipulated by the TV contracts? Can't someone just go out on their own and privately develop their own car? 
I mean, what are the rules for car elegabitly in DTM? Does the car have to be German made? Well, Toyota has used that loophole to compete in NASCAR. GM killed Opal's DTM program at the end of '05, and BMW doesn't seem interested in DTM.
And I'm kinda surpised that Audi is in DTM to begin with. The cars are hybrids of NASCAR Nextel/Sprint Cup Car of Tomorrow cars, and F1 cars. There's no production relevance, and the cars are basically spec like in NASCAR. In fact, I'll bet you that the engine used in Audi DTM cars is a 4 liter version of Audi's 3.6 TFSI V8 used in the R8 ALMS car, sans turbochargers and FSI.
I don't follow DTM, as it's never show on TV in America, and if I wanted to see spec racing, I'd watch NASCAR, Champ Car, or the IRL. And with Mosley on board as FIA president, F1 is going that way. Which is why I watch the ALMS-probably the last "pure" form of traditonal racing, where the drivers have to master the track and their machinery, and use its strengths to exploit their oponents' weaknesses. And where innovation influences what we drive from a technology stand point(and this coming from someone who wishes that pushrod Ford V8s still had a chance to win in the ALMS).
And on the FIA deal, DTM is partly supported by DEKRA, Germany's auto club that's asscoiated with the FIA, just like how(officailly) the ALMS, NASCAR, CART/Champ Car, IRL belong to the ACCUS, and the ACO is a French auto club that(supposidly) is FIA asscoitated.


_Modified by chernaudi at 11:50 PM 9-25-2007_


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## grmncarfan (Jul 21, 2003)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (chernaudi)*

There hasn't been a third manufacturer possibility for a while. It's extremely expensive to develop and run a new car, especially for a private firm. And no the cars don't have to be German.
DTM cars are far away from "hybrids of Nextel Cup cars and F1 cars." They are front mid-engined, semi carbon fiber monocoque chassis with bodyworks that resemble road cars. Very, very advanced stuff. They are basically prototype machines with bodyworks (think late 90's GT1). The driver sits in the middle of the cockpit, no driver aids, even paddle shifters are banned. The A4 DTM is codenamed R12, the engine was purposefully built for DTM, has nothing to do with the R8's V8. 
The current, revivied DTM is a a new breed of racing. It's prototype race cars disguised as touring cars doing sprint races F1 style, with 5-second pit stops. And best of all, the FIA can't mess with it. IMO great racing. It's totally different from endurance racing.
BMW's excuse for not participating is that the cars are not production cars-based, which is BS. BMW Motorsport don't have the money and resource to do a DTM program, plain and simple. I can write a book on why they should be in DTM instead of racing against FWD hatchbacks in WTCC, but that's another story. Alfa Romeo is rumored to be interested. They were in the old DTM and their new 159 GTA is supposed to be V8 powered, I hope they can make a comeback. 
I don't know why you are suprised Audi is in DTM. It's a great platform to promote their biggest seller, the A4. A lot of technologies also eventually filter down the chain. It'd be great if DTM can further expand (more manufacturers, races in North Ameirca, etc).


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## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (grmncarfan)*

DTM is basically a spec series. From what I've heard and read of Audi and their involvement in racing, they're not looking for spec series to run in. 
And DTM cars bear no real relevance to production cars(at least currently), aside from safety features and the like that can inspire future developments. As you mentioned, the cars are basically front engined carbon tubbed LMP cars with road car inspired bodywork. Rumor has it that in '09, the cars will have to use chassis derived from the standard road car. So steel monocoques are back in.
Also, the A4, nor the basic C-Class MB use flatplane V8s-they use 4 cylinders, turbocharged in the Audi's case. If they want 'em to use V8s, why not allow them to use S/RS 4s and C430/AMG C63s?
Someone may as well enter old tube frame Mustang and Camero Trans-AM cars, but I wonder how many technical waivers would be allowed if the DTM and ADAC/DEKRA officals allowed them to race. The same happened in the late '80s/early '90s when someone was allowed to enter Mustangs(they were basically restricted Trans-Am cars) to make up the numbers.
I mean, the least that the DTM guys can do is allow production based engines of up to 5 liters. Problem is, that Audi doesn't have a 5 liter engine unless you count the 5 liter Lambo V10, and at that, Audi's version is .2 liters too large(5.2 vs 5.0), and the engine would have to also be a V8, which Mercedes has a 5 liter V8, Audi's V8s are only 4.2 liters. It might be an excuse for Audi to make a 5 liter version of the 4.2 V8 though, since MB and BMW have 5.0 V8s, and even Ford has the 302/5.0 V8 back in production(albiet as a crate motor).


_Modified by chernaudi at 4:54 AM 9-26-2007_


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## [email protected] (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: What on earth happened in the DTM in Spain?!?!?!?!?! (grmncarfan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *grmncarfan* »_
Also, I want to point out that tieing the DTM fiasco to the F1 scandal is totally pointless. Yes MB are in on both, but the Stephneygate is a McLaren internal thing and has nothing to do with MB, while in DTM it's HWA running the show for MB. Two completely different entities.


I'll respond to this since I drew the comparison. I'm not saying there's a relation in the people involved. However, F1 is Merc's top racing campaign. Le Mans is Audis. If Audi had a scandal at Le Mans and got hit like Mercedes, I'd bet tempers might be a little more hot, their patience a little more thin in other endeavours. That seems fairly natural.


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