# Electric Water Pump ?



## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

Good Day ,
I have been thinking about using an Electric Water Pump when I install a 3A engine in my Caddy and would like to know if anyone has any experience using an electric water pump ?


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (Kazan)*

i have a stock pump i run from an electric motor in my ep autocross car


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (epjetta)*

Pics?
How do you determine the RPM and/or load when picking an electric motor to run the pump? Does the RPM vary with engine speed?


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## 4ePikanini (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (Jettaboy1884)*

if you do it then have a buzzer installed which will alert you if the temp goes above normal or if the pump stops working.
just a failsafe thought. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

My friend Steve runs a Meziere electric water pump in his 2003 Mustang with a supercharged 4.6L on the street and he is happy with it .Now with that kind of power he really does not NEED the extra 10-20 hp gain by using an electric water pump , while on a smaller naturally aspirated engine the power saved would mean a lot .


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Kazan)*

I couldn't imagine the stock VW water pump sucks up a lot of power, but even if an electric pump freed up 2-5hp it would be worth it IMO.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

Jettaboy1884
From the dyno sheets that I have seen on a small block chevy it looks like you gain between 10-20 HP , which if you think about it is not much gain for a large motor and it is more at higher RPM's .
While our smaller engines spend more time at higher RPM's than the V8's , so it might be that we lose more .
Think about a water pump driven by a V belt ( a power loss ) , that tries to pumps between 20--60 GPM through a thermostat that might be closed and when open still restricts the flow .
The dynos that I have worked on where water pumps and the way you measured the power generated was to restrict the pumps output , very much like the water pump / thermostat .


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Kazan)*

Those are some interesting findings. Thanks for the info. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
On a similar note, is it true that VR6 equipped cars have an electric water pump that is remote-mounted (near the radiator)?


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

At this point in time I believe that those pumps ( Low flow ) are used to pump water either into hot spots , intercoolers and or interior heaters .
They are not used as the primary cooling pump , but I could be wrong .
My friend Steve claims an excess of 600 RW HP ( I believe it ) with his street driven Mustang using a Meziere electric water pump and having no problems .


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (Jettaboy1884)*

i will try to get a pic of my setup posted soon. i use a rabbit fan motor for the setup. i have a ton so they are cheap, and strong too.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

Well looking at my stock water pump I see that unlike most thermostats the VW one does not appear to stop the water flow , but to redirect it .
So the gains of switching to electric powered pump might be less than in a more traditional setup .


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## torquetuning (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (epjetta)*

i would love to see them pics!


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## torquetuning (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (torquetuning)*

PICS???


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Kazan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kazan* »_My friend Steve runs a Meziere electric water pump in his 2003 Mustang with a supercharged 4.6L on the street and he is happy with it .Now with that kind of power he really does not NEED the extra 10-20 hp gain by using an electric water pump , while on a smaller naturally aspirated engine the power saved would mean a lot .


I think that's faulty logic. The power to run the water pump needs to come from somewhere and ultimately on a street driven car that's always going to be the engine. Converting mechanical energy into electrical energy then converting that to chemical energy in a battery then converting back into mechanical energy to turn the water pump is less efficient than driving the water pump directly. 
There are only two ways I could see this arrangement resulting in any gains, first, if the stock water pump is massively over sized and thus wasting power in which case by driving it electrically you could run it at a more appropriate rate although I've never heard that VW water pumps are significantly over sized so that's probably a moot point. Second, if you had some way of temporarily disabling the alternator at times of heavy engine load thus freeing up the power to go into the driveline.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

ABA Scirocco
Having looked at the insides of my new VW water pump I see were it redirects the water flow ( rather than blocking the water flow ) so the the gains by switching to an electric pump will be less than the traditional water pump / thermostat which works by blocking the water flow .
. Right now the traditional pump has to run all the time at a speed - flow rate high enough to handle the highest temperature that the engine is expected to see in normal working conditions .
As I see it the best gains would be if the electric water pump were controlled proportionally to the engines temperature needs , so that the engine would warm up faster and stay at the correct temperature at all times , ( http://www.daviescraig.com.au/...id=47 ) instead of always pumping whether it is needed or not . 
Understand the Alternator can store it's excess energy in a battery for use when needed .
I remember the arguments about replacing the engine driven fan for an electric fan .
Then it was the replacement of the V belt with the serpentine belt .
I think that both have proven to be beneficial .


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Kazan)*

As you say quite correctly, the advantage of electric operated devices is you can run only it when and how much you need it. Something like a rad fan is a perfect application for this as it's only required part time and not at all at high speed. The water pump, however, I'm not convinced is a good application, first, it needs to run all the time and second a belt driven pump does not run at maximum all the time, it's speed is proportional to engine speed and that's sort of rough approximation of engine loading. It would be interesting to see how the output of those Davies Craig pump varies and plot that against engine rpm and see how that would vary compared to a mechanically drive pump.


_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 1:05 PM 4-27-2008_


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## torquetuning (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

look at it like this
A stock pump driven by a electric motor will not draw more than 8 Amps. 8 amps = 100watts @ 12volts.
The power is NOT put in the battery and then drawn back out. Your battery starts your car not your accessories. power is only drawn back out of the battery if you are drawing more amps than your alternator can provide. 
If you have a car like my wife's and you turn the blower on and the lights dim or your gauges twitch you have a issue with your grounds/power cable/alternator (hers is a bad alternator )
If you dont believe this start your car and disconnect your negative terminal. car still running?








Personally I have had great experience with electric water pump conversions. Those of you making assumptions that the engine drag lost from removing the mechanical water pump belt and electric load gained back from the water pump will be a wash are wrong. You WILL free up HP! NO it wont be 20 HP. but you might get 5-10 .
Truth is this is a mod you do when youve done everything else.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (torquetuning)*

I'm sure if you did a comprehensive energy audit on the system, the electric water pump would prove to be less efficient but of course that's pretty much irrelevant considering how most people drive their cars. I guess what's going on is you're averaging out the power consumption of the water pump in essense shifting power comsumption away from peak horsepower periods leaving more power available for the drivetrain at that time. That would also explain why you don't see these systems in any racing events that require endurance at consistantly high engine output like nascar cup races as the engine spends so little time off peak there would be little point in averaging out the pump's power consumption. And by the same logic, I could see this being quite effective at squeezing the last bit of engine performance out of a drag car.


_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 5:09 PM 4-27-2008_


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## CStryker (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_I could see this being quite effective at squeezing the last bit of engine performance out of a drag car.

Especially since with a drag car you can disconnect the alternator all together and just run off battery then charge it up when you get back to the pit. Most of the people I know running electric water pumps use them in this manner. (Though they're not VW's, so I could be missing something...)


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (CStryker)*

torquetuning 
Please excuse my poor English , what I was trying to say was that under a time of high demand your system can draw energy from both the alternator and the battery ( almost doubling the capacity of the system ) . My old truck's alternator had an output of 108 amps at 1000 rpm more than enough for my needs at the time .
I am still trying to fully understand the the VW cooling system , it is quite different than the cooling systems that I have worked with in the past . So far it seems to be much better designed .
The typical cooling system had a thermostat in the head or intake manifold that stops the coolant from flowing into the radiator until the engine heated up , and even then the thermostat restricted the coolant flow so that the water pump was under load . This is the system that should show the most benefit with an electric water pump , ideally one that uses a electronically controlled flow system ( with the thermostat removed it should flow very easily ) . You say that this is the last thing to do to an engine and it will only gain ( save ) 5-10 Hp . On a small engine , under a 100 Hp a bolt on item giving a savings of 5-10 Hp seems like a winner .


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## snowfox (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_
Converting mechanical energy into electrical energy then converting that to chemical energy in a battery then converting back into mechanical energy to turn the water pump is less efficient than driving the water pump directly. 


Just scanned through this thread and found that you might have missed something here. (Unless you've got a serpentine set up), there is an energy loss to friction in the v-belts when mechanically driving the stock waterpump. An impeller setup connected directly to the electric motor shaft would be driven by current in electrical wires where the only loss is the resistance of the wire, no frictional scrub of the v-belt loss.
Interesting thread. It would be cool to see some set up schematics and install pics...


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## CStryker (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: (snowfox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *snowfox* »_(Unless you've got a serpentine set up), there is an energy loss to friction in the v-belts when mechanically driving the stock waterpump.

Except there is going to be a higher load on your alternator as a result of the water pump, so those gains are probably null.


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## snowfox (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: (CStryker)*

Granted. I was simply referring to energy (engine power) being lost to mechanical friction. To move a given amount of coolant through a given system requires a given amount of energy. What is the most efficient method of performing the task, the method that results in the least loss of energy? If a mechanical pump can be driven electrically, there will be an additional load on the motor to drive the alternator, but will the increased in load be greater than the load on the motor of driving the mechanical pump directly when the frictional losses are factored in? We could be talking about some small gains, but it's an interesting discussion.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (snowfox)*

First Mechanical Power losses ;
If each V-belt pulley loses us energy , then for each pulley we remove from the system we save power .
The standard water pump , pumps all the time whether the engine hot or cold .
The standard water pump , has to pump at a high enough rate to cool the engine under a heavy load on the hottest day , so most of the time we are over pumping , 
The standard water pump , pumps proportionally to engine speed , not in relationship to engine temperature , so that any time the engine temperature drops and the thermostat closes and we are pumping against a closed door just wasting the energy . So at speed on a cold day under no load it is pumping as though it where a hot day , but the thermostat is closed , a total loss .
The alternator , yes it has frictional losses , but hey , I have run it anyway so if I can get it to run my pump that's a plus .
If I use an electric water pump to replace the existing mechanical pump what I will be eliminating would be two V-belt pulleys and a V-belt and their friction losses .
My alternator can produce more electrical power than I need most of the time and I have a battery to help get through a time of high need .
When there is little need for electrical power there is little magnetic drag on the alternator .
Some systems just replace the stock pump so that when ever the engine is running so is the pump , energy cost under 8 amps .
Another setup is to have a have a temperature switch turn on the pump when the engine reaches a set temperature so that the engine will reach operating temperature faster and the thermostat has opened .
To me the ultimate system would be to have the pump flow coolant in proportion to the temperature need without the restriction of a thermostat .


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (Kazan)*

Interesting.
I think one would want to eliminate the thermostat and proportionally control the pump/motor. Here is why. Even when the engine is relatively cold you will still develop hot spots in the head and block so the coolant could heat and boil in these spots if not circulated. Also, it will be impossible to properly read and control how the engine is heating if circulation stopped and this will also affect the fuel enrichment. With a temperature controlled pump speed you can choose to run the pump slowly during warmup (satisfying circulation requirements and providing the CTS with a fair approximation of engine temp) and thus control the warmup cycle so the thermostat is no longer needed.
The most efficient way to drive a pump like this either with a multispeed (multi winding) DC motor selected to have suitable low and high speeds or with an AC motor run off a solidstate inverter controller so it can be proportionally controlled (sort of like the latest generation of ultra-high efficiency HVAC compressors).


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## 84dubber (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (wclark)*

Coolant/water will not boil under absolute pressure
Cool thread! In thinking about it a good system would be a rabbit rad fan motor hooked up to a variable voltage switch ( like a dimmer switch ) connected to a coolant sensor.
you could set a base value for the fan motor to run slow upon warm up and then it would run at variable speeds as the coolant temp dictates.
Anyone got any Ideas on a switch and how to get it it "read" the temp sensor?


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (84dubber)*

Computing power is super cheap nowadays, for under $5 you can get a microcontroller chip that could read a temp sensor and output a PWM signal to control a DC motor, all you gotta do is find someone that knows how to write the code and put the pieces together.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (ABA Scirocco)*

From one of my earlier posts
" As I see it the best gains would be if the electric water pump were controlled proportionally to the engines temperature needs , so that the engine would warm up faster and stay at the correct temperature at all times , ( http://www.daviescraig.com.au/...id=47 ) instead of always pumping whether it is needed or not . "


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (Kazan)*

wclark
Said " it will be impossible to properly read and control how the engine is heating if circulation stopped " Most thermostats do exactly that , starting from cold the block heats up and the thermostat opens letting in cold coolant so the thermostat closes and we repeat this process opening and closing , until we have the radiator up to operating temperature .
Try this ; on a cold morning watch your temperature gauge when you start out , it will rise , then drop and rise again etc .
He also said " and this will also affect the fuel enrichment " yes it will , the computer will see it as cold running condition and add fuel . So if we had a system that allowed the engine to heat up rapidly and then kept it at that temperature we would get better mileage .


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (84dubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *84dubber* »_Coolant/water will not boil under absolute pressure


Even under 1 bar system pressure above atmosphere a 50/50 coolant mix will boil at about 275F. At atmosphreic pressure that is more like 230-250. Pockets of non-circulating coolant could easily be heated above these temps in areas immediately adjacent to the combustion chamber unless the engine is designed to circulate coolant in the block (thermal circulation) without the aid of a pump. I do not know if this is the case with these engines and I am 800 miles from my A2 Bentley manual so cannot check to see if there is a discussion of this in there.


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## dubass (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (wclark)*

http://scch-heads.com/viewpart.php?id=27 
hmmmm


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## torquetuning (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (dubass)*

email sent to them about dizzy trigger for Msns and a electric pump conversion


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (dubass)*

The only thing that I wonder about with their ( http://scch-heads.com/viewpart.php?id=27 ) pump setup is what happens to the other two bypass coolant hoses ?


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (Kazan)*

here are some pics of mine.
a 089.jpg
a 090.jpg
a 091.jpg


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (epjetta)*

my pics dont work







i will try to get them up.


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## torquetuning (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (Kazan)*

i sent them a message and never heard back







im interested in that pump and a custom pick up for my distributor







(


_Modified by torquetuning at 3:21 PM 5-18-2008_


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (torquetuning)*

epjetta 
I would love to see your pictures of your electric water pump setup .
Try posting your pictures to http://www.flickr.com/ or http://photobucket.com/
and posting a link .


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: Electric Water Pump ? (epjetta)*

epjetta ,
Sent me copies of the pictures of his electric water pump setup that he tried to post and said that I could try posting them . so here goes .
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2...88994/
" the drive parts are from morroso. i started with one of their kits but i burned the motor up so i made the bracket for the fan motor. i had to drill the wp pulley for 3 bolts. its set up for 4. the gear i use on the motor is listed as a 30% faster one, not the size the kit originally had. during an autocross in 90+ degree heat it runs on the high side as expected after 8000 rpm runs, but on cold days it is perfect. i drilled the thermostat and when i'm in the pits it can take the temp from 190 to 100 in about 2-3 minutes with the pump and fan running with the engine off. "
Anyone know the RPM of a VW fan motor ?


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## torquetuning (Mar 2, 2008)

hmmmm interesting


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## nauticlestarmk2 (Jun 19, 2007)

Holy Crap VW should be paying you guys for this ****.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (nauticlestarmk2)*

I would be happy with a healthy discount on parts prices , & contact information for the mythical ware house in Texas that has all the NOS Mk1 parts .


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Kazan)*

Resubscribing! Excellent thread.
I have two questions:
People keep mentioning the extra drag on the alternator. I didn't think that the alternator is subject to more drag, as more demand is put on it... In fact, when I spin an alternator by hand, it seems to have barely any resistance at all. So, are there more than one mode in the alternator?
My second question is this: Would the ideal setup use the existing waterpump on the block, or would it be better to gut the OEM pump and run a universal pump?
I'm sure you could replace the thermostat with a manually, or electronically controlled diverter valve to determine if the coolant flows through the radiator or not...


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

Jettaboy1884
Yes there might be an increase in load on the alternator .
Alternators generate electricity by the same principle as DC generators, namely, when the magnetic field around a conductor changes, a current is induced in the conductor. Typically, a rotating magnet called the rotor turns within a stationary set of conductors wound in coils on an iron core, called the stator. The field cuts across the conductors, generating an electrical current, as the mechanical input causes the rotor to turn. Automotive alternators invariably use a rotor winding, which allows control of the alternator generated voltage by varying the current in the rotor field winding. As we increase the load ( lights , sound system , and electric water pump ) we have to increase the magnetic force of the rotor and the increased magnetic force makes it harder to turn the alternator causing more drag. But since we HAVE to have an electric source we can use it to provide multiple services and if needed we have a battery to help during times of high demand low generation.
I had thought that I would just replace the VW pump with a Meziere pump, my friend Steve runs one of their pumps on his 600HP 4.6L Street Mustang, but having looked at how the VW thermostat redirects the coolant rather than shuts off the coolant flow, I now think that a electric drive to the stock VW pump would be better .
The Craig-Davis electric water pump with thermostatic/electric control looks like the wave of the future .
The idea is rather than building more power , burning more fuel etc , we save energy by eliminating wasted power loss .


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (Kazan)*

Along the lines of using electrical power to replace mechanical power in automobiles , it seems that Electrical Power Steering has arrived http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_steering  .
It makes sense you only need power assistance when you are maneuvering a slow speeds ( parking , etc ) so why have a pump going while cruising on the freeway .
To paraphrase Ben Franklin , a power saved , is a power earned .


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (Kazan)*

I've driven a few cars with electric power steering, they feel different, I don't love it, don't hate it either it just takes a little getting used to. In terms of power and/or fuel savings however, being an intermittant load, I think it's an appropriate use of technology.


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## Geoff Rood (Apr 30, 2001)

Just to throw in soem stuff on this thread:
The VW cooling system is really designed much better than the V8 pushrod motors that these electric pumps are mostly used on. The gains from switching for a V8 will be much more profound than if you did so on a VW.
That being said, the gains come I would imagine mostly in the form of a more efficient impeller drive in the pump as well as the variable loading on demand. I know some of the more expensive electric units vary flow according to temperature.
VW has already implemented electric water pumps on some of their newer European motors IIRC. Electrical accessories are also popping up in lots of places. Most (if not all) of the new generation VW's use a manual steering rack with electric assist. I absolutely love it because you get the feel and feedback of the manual rack, and the electrics have a very well programmed ECU to control the assitance. It saves something like 1/2 a gallon of fuel over 300 miles of driving over a hydraulic system and eliminates the pump, hoses, possible leaks etc.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (Geoff Rood)*

Geoff Rood
" Having looked at the insides of my new VW water pump I see were it redirects the water flow ( rather than blocking the water flow ) so the the gains by switching to an electric pump will be less than the traditional water pump / thermostat which works by blocking the water flow ."
The gains might include less drag when accelerating , the drag of the pump spooling up .
Less strain on crank driven accessories , 
Depending on the setup you could eliminate the heat soak when you shut off the engine .
Any one have any other ideas ?
In the end we might eliminate all belt driven accessories .
Your description of the new electric steering sounds great , but your statement " It saves something like 1/2 a gallon of fuel over 300 miles of driving " 
Did not sound encouraging , until I figured that at the end of a year ( 12k miles ) it would save twenty gallons of gas and at five dollars a gallon that would be a hundred dollars a year . 
Geoff , I read your statement " VW has already implemented electric water pumps on some of their newer European motors IIRC " I looked for the electric pumps but all I could find were accessory pumps .
Could you direct me to a site that has them .


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## Geoff Rood (Apr 30, 2001)

Well the electric steering isn't ONLY for fuel economy, eliminating the entire hydraulic system reduces maintenance and opens up some space for the engineers to work in.
As for VW using the electric pumps, I did an internship at VWOA last year and I remember reading over an electric water pump system that was controlled by a load based ECU (more heat mroe pumping). I don't really recall where I saw it, it may have just been developmental.
Talking about the VW water pump, the thermostat redirects the water flow, the pump is always pumping. I was specifically referring to the impeller design. I would imagine a purpose made centrifugal electric pump would have a more effective design than the cast blob that bolts into a VW.


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (Geoff Rood)*

Geoff Rood
Thanks for the information .
I can appreciate any thing that reduces the clutter in the engine compartment .
"Talking about the VW water pump " as afar as I know all engine driven mechanical water pumps are always running , hot or cold , load or no load , that is the problem .
As to the impeller design I assume that it was designed to work best with the VW housing to redirect the water flow and not restrict the flow .
Looking at the two designs the older http://z.about.com/d/autorepai...6.gif and the newer impeller http://www.jbmorrison.com/Quic...p.JPG is so much simpler and cleaner , it is almost a work of art .


_Modified by Kazan at 10:56 AM 6-23-2008_


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## cmh_brickster (Apr 12, 2008)

*Re: (Kazan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kazan* »_Geoff Rood
Looking at the two designs the older http://z.about.com/d/autorepai...6.gif and the newer impeller http://www.jbmorrison.com/Quic...p.JPG is so much simpler and cleaner , it is almost a work of art .

_Modified by Kazan at 10:56 AM 6-23-2008_

So where can you buy a belt driven water pump that has this new and more efficient design? Does this fit mk1 and mk2 diesels?


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## Kazan (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: (cmh_brickster)*

cmh_brickster ,
First we don't know if the new impeller are better , we are just saying that they look better .
Second I don't know if they are made for older blocks , I think they are for newer engines .
Third the old impeller in the old blocks may be better at redirecting the water while the new design might use a thermostat that stops coolant flow .
Fourth I still think an electric water pump would be best .


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