# VRT carnage pics



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

So there was a VR6 that didn't want to run right. Opened it up and found cylinder number 1 and 5 with cracked ring lands. Let this serve as a warning to everyone out there that running rich does not equal safe. Be careful with your chip tunes out there.:beer: 
















I was lucky that the rings and bores were perfect, so two used pistons later it is back together. I know, I know I am crazy for just swapping the pistons. I actually just want to see if it works, lol. I have an other bottom end and head ready just in case. 

Just wanted to show everyone that fuel puddling is no joke and can destroy even the beefy VR piston like a toy. Man, what a trip this turbo BS has been. Be very aware that this was not caused by heat, this was caused by un burt fuel igniting after the initial burn. I will never trust a chip tune ever again, I am so glad I now have a SEM that I can actually control what is going on. 

Not many people on here show their failures, I decided to share so people can see what happens when things don't go as planned. Shame really, this motor had 195 across the board when I got it 2 years ago. Live and learn I guess.


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

Wow ...May I ask what tune was in there? How much boost? And what kinda of issues did it have?


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Goes to show that even with that damage your compression was still technically in spec. I am guessing your leakdown was in the 15% to 20% range which definitely isn't spec. What was your idle vac before teardown?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Well the fuel setup was UM 42# for OBD2. Also was basically a kinetics kit which lived its life around 15-18 psi. 9:1 spacer with arp's. 

Issues were a good amount of blow by, but not anything crazy. Engine low on Vac 11 in hg, don't trust your Autometer gauge. Misfire on cyl 5 at idle and part throttle. 

This must have happened months ago when it was cold out. Thing wanted to stay in the 10's on tip in, way to much fuel. 

New setup will be PTE 58/62, Lugtronic, 630's and a fresh trans. Oh still going to see if this piston swap idea works. 




vergessen wir es said:


> Goes to show that even with that damage your compression was still technically in spec. I am guessing your leakdown was in the 15% to 20% range which definitely isn't spec. What was your idle vac before teardown?


 I just pulled it apart, they wanted 50 to do the leakdown test and that HC test stuff is about the same. 50 bucks gets me a gasket, so I decided to just pull it apart and see what was up.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Very common with stock Vr6 pistons in turbo engine even with SEM.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Lost a fuel injector ... and then a piston.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)




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## 1SlowSLC (May 4, 2003)

I toasted a stock piston, even with DTA management. High engine temps (mostly overheating) will kill a stock bottom end also. 

The stock pistons let go on the ringlands 99% of the time. They just werent made to deal with boost.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

SO after reading again about detonation I guess that is what happened to this motor. Sucks really bad, I was really amped to start driving and tuning the new setup. 

Thanks for making me feel better everyone, it is nice to not be alone.:laugh: Though it is kinda embarrassing, I hope someone learns something from this. You don't see to many threads like this. Guess that's a good thing though. 

Oddly enough after looking at both pistons in detail both wrist pin bores have slight galling. They both also broke in the same place, the left edge of the quelch area of the piston. Looking at the engine from the front, 7 o' clock position. 

I am also aware that this can happen with any setup really. I know SEM will not protect me from things like this, though I have a feeling the rich running conditions on tip in with my last setup didn't help. I also know that chips like some setups and son't like others, guess it didn't like mine. Man does failure suck...


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

this what happen with mine at waterfest 3 years ago when my inline pump lost connection from the battery  I was still learning lol.. well thats how I looked at it  )











This is from the 3L I bought here in the tex and it didnt wanna start when I installed everything together... did a comp check and no compression on cly #3 and very low compression on 1 n 5... the guy I bought it from gave me money and a set of shrick 268 cams to kinda make it right as he didnt know it was like that ( i guess its a win lose situation for the both of us:thumbup








^this was from tuning... the original owner has sds and it just got tuned (800miles on the engine he said) it suppose to have made something like 490hp) then the car got parted


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

We see literally a TON of melted rear VR6 pistons... Out of all the replacement pistons we sell for forged piston sets, literally 95% of them turn out to be VR6 rears...  I always make a point of asking when people call. 

My advise- consider tapping your manifold for multiple EGT gauges and at least moving them around to check the rear bank versus front bank. I would never put a standalone on a boosted VR6 with a short runner without cylinder trims and some way of tuning them in. 

The intake manifolds are all different depending on which one you are running, so a canned tune may not be spot on as far as cylinder compensation goes. Hell, I'd imagine a decent amount of the smaller injector canned tunes are for stock manifold, with very little bank compensation... 

Run them rich in boost too- it won't hurt, and it's easier then swapping out rear pistons every other week. Your WB02 isn't telling you the real story anyways, it's just an average. A/F makes very little difference to power as long as it's not ULTRA rich.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

interesting point you brought up. From what I have seen it is usually 1,3 or 5 that fail. What about running OEM MK4 cams with a SRI? should solve that problem? I will have to ask Kevin if he can do anything for the back pistons in terms of the tune. This all happened before Lugtronic, He was the one who thought something was wrong by looking at my logs. I just thought the motor was tired or the head was no good. Thanks for the heads up one that one bro.:thumbup: Thank you Pete for your info also.:beer:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Ginster, what is your intercooling setup? 

The one motor that I've hurt was also the rear bank due to high temps. Let's just say I take intercooling a lot more seriously now. 

Lots of good info in here:thumbup:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Ginster, what is your intercooling setup?
> 
> The one motor that I've hurt was also the rear bank due to high temps. Let's just say I take intercooling a lot more seriously now.
> 
> Lots of good info in here:thumbup:


 I have a feeling you are correct. Going to get my used short block today. Also IC was a CXRacing.


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## flatsix02 (Aug 23, 2004)

I feel your pain.... my first vrt ended like this.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Wow, that's a nice paperweight/conversation piece,


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## hoodita (Jul 25, 1999)

same thing happened to me 3yrs ago. but mine was way way worse. all the ringlands broke. 

After that. I dont ever trust a chip tune ever again. Especially C2. 

If i were to do it again. SEM with 1 or more EGT sensors or nothing. Too much wasted time and money.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

hoodita said:


> same thing happened to me 3yrs ago. but mine was way way worse. all the ringlands broke.
> 
> After that. I dont ever trust a chip tune ever again. Especially C2.
> 
> If i were to do it again. SEM with 1 or more EGT sensors or nothing. Too much wasted time and money.


 I need to figure out how people mount egt probes on cast manifolds.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Sucks man. Glad to hear your doing it over right with SEM :beer:

Mine ended with much less damage, but was still smoked.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Thanks for the support. This year has gone like this, clutch, trans, headgasket now this. VW's are awesome, lol. 

Also, no bueno on the motor. Someone left the hood up and it was rusted up. Sucks because today was half off day.:banghead:


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

I heard 3-5% more fuel for the rears. Plus, when I asked Kevin about EGT, he said meh. I could be remembering wrong though. 

You can drill and tap the cast iron easily enough.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

vergessen wir es said:


> I heard 3-5% more fuel for the rears. Plus, when I asked Kevin about EGT, he said meh. I could be remembering wrong though.
> 
> You can drill and tap the cast iron easily enough.


 I am going to send him an email and see what he thinks. I done working on it for now, all VW'd out at the moment.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

vergessen wir es said:


> I heard 3-5% more fuel for the rears. Plus, when I asked Kevin about EGT, he said meh. I could be remembering wrong though.
> 
> You can drill and tap the cast iron easily enough.


 
To setup an ideal tune, o2 sensor for each cyl. Saw it from way back on a 944 race car.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Just beware the sensor tip taking out your exhaust wheel when it breaks.

SEM will allow for bank trim... if you go MS3 you can trim cylinders individually if you wire up full sequential fuel even ...


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

DieGTi said:


> Just beware the sensor tip taking out your exhaust wheel when it breaks.


 
Very true, this was on a N/A engine. On a turbo you are very right it could cause all sorts of damage. So perhaps just to establish the tune via aux reading then to set your post turbo o2. 

Never tried this, but it would be interesting to see the difference from cyl to cyl on air/fuel mixtures.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

DieGTi said:


> Just beware the sensor tip taking out your exhaust wheel when it breaks.
> 
> SEM will allow for bank trim... if you go MS3 you can trim cylinders individually if you wire up full sequential fuel even ...


 I have a Lugtonic ECU, I am sure it will all work itself out once it is running again. It will run again and be better than ever.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

DieGTi said:


> Just beware the sensor tip taking out your exhaust wheel when it breaks.
> 
> SEM will allow for bank trim... if you go MS3 you can trim cylinders individually if you wire up full sequential fuel even ...


 This only happens if you run **** sensors and hang them out a mile. Inconel sheathed sensor barely in the exhaust stream = no problems.


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## llanowar (Jun 26, 2008)

nice thread ! i heard of running different spray pattern injectors for 135 but with kevin im sure he could tune it in to 
egt seems good idea y not


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## cant get a password (Sep 24, 2004)

Melted mine down last week towed it home and stuck it in the garage for another day


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

cant get a password said:


> Melted mine down last week towed it home and stuck it in the garage for another day


 Yeah, it is pretty awesome.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

I see this thread evolving a lot over the coming months/ years... 

I've been slightly angry at mine as well since the dyno but decided I'm going to run it as is until I blow it up for real. Don't lose heart just yet. You'll get everything sorted out. :beer:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

obdONE said:


> I see this thread evolving a lot over the coming months/ years...
> 
> I've been slightly angry at mine as well since the dyno but decided I'm going to run it as is until I blow it up for real. Don't lose heart just yet. You'll get everything sorted out. :beer:


 Jamie, did you ditch the MS3 for Lugtronic?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

DeckManDubs said:


> Jamie, did you ditch the MS3 for Lugtronic?


 I think he had ms1 if anything.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Ms1 sucks compared to ms2 and ms3. Terrible for fi with large injectors. 

-Andrew


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

Hey Noah! It was ms1 and yeah I'm on lugtronic now. I just couldn't get anywhere with ms and got tired of bothering Paul about it. He worked with me enough over the years with that damn thing. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Should have ugraded instead of jumping ship! All good though!

When I have seen overfuel damage, it looks like the center of the land melts, not just cracks off. Only have seen it happen at crazy rich afrs too, sub 10:1, off the gauge, smoke show rich and high load.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

GinsterMan98 said:


> What about running OEM MK4 cams with a SRI? should solve that problem?


 Any tuners have some input? I know there are threads on this but since we're chatting about rear cylinder failures I figure this is a good place to discuss some solutions.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Jeebus said:


> Any tuners have some input? I know there are threads on this but since we're chatting about rear cylinder failures I figure this is a good place to discuss some solutions.


 I still have not talked to Kevin about that. I do know others have done this. I was running an SRI with DSR 256 cams when these pistons let go.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

There are plenty of high hp vr's out there with sri and 12v cams... if you are within the boundaries of your setup then you're fine. Treat your car more like a horse than a terminator and it'll hold together.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I was getting at lack of runner compensation. 

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Should have ugraded instead of jumping ship! All good though


 Yeah, I was seriously on the fence about upgrading. Would have saved me some coin for sure. Thanks for all the years of help and support though Paul! :beer:


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## dr. b (Jul 14, 2005)

*FV-QR*

subscribed (in hopes of never contributing any pictures)


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

DieGTi said:


> Treat your car more like a horse than a terminator and it'll hold together.


 Good stuff! :laugh:


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I still have not talked to Kevin about that. I do know others have done this. I was running an SRI with DSR 256 cams when these pistons let go.


 I know i talkd to Kevin about this subject before I had my Sri made but I cant find the email... need to check the IM in here... but if I remember correctly it should be ok to not have runner compensation as long as u dont tune at the very limit...


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

This one is after you break a ringland you make another pass. With a stock air temp sensor and a Ebay intercooler. 










This is after a 2-3-2 went to 10500rpm. Still ran no knocking 
Pretty sure it spun a bearing in the burnout box. It still ran a [email protected] then locked up


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> We see literally a TON of melted rear VR6 pistons... Out of all the replacement pistons we sell for forged piston sets, literally 95% of them turn out to be VR6 rears...  I always make a point of asking when people call.


 Sounds more like tuning/fueling. Ive never melted a STOCK rear piston and i know we push my motor harder than most people with built motors do.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Ive never melted a STOCK rear piston and i know we push my motor harder than most people with built motors do.


 That's interesting... the only vrt I've ever had rod issues with was a "built" motor. I've got a stock setup (other than headspacer & ARP hardware) still holding up since ~2006 pushing ~28 psi. Honestly don't think I will go the whole built internals route again. Got another two stock blocks holding up with no problems either.


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> That's interesting... the only vrt I've ever had rod issues with was a "built" motor. I've got a stock setup (other than headspacer & ARP hardware) still holding up since ~2006 pushing ~28 psi. Honestly don't think I will go the whole built internals route again. Got another two stock blocks holding up with no problems either.


 I'm with ya man 30psi on my stock block has been holding just fine. Ran 26psi for 2 or 3 years before that with no problem either, same motor. 100k :thumbup: Im always hearing of people dumping massive amounts of $ into their motors and having nothing but problems. Not to say built motors are "bad", im sure it has a lot to do with specific setups/how the engine was done and by who etc.. there is countless things that can be the cause of engine failure. But stock block & head with arp hardware, 8.5:1 comp. has never let me down thus far. :thumbup:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Quality of fuel injector has a lot to do with the high power setups that are tuned out. If you tune the air to fuel for the six combined as many tuners do and you have an injector that isn't flowing quite as much like the others then that cylinder could run much hotter... matched injectors can be $$$ however.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Well, I should have it back together this weekend. Life and other BS got in the way this week. I also ordered a new intercooler to replace my CX fail core. Also got a MK4 IAT.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

:thumbup:


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Well, I should have it back together this weekend. Life and other BS got in the way this week. I also ordered a new intercooler to replace my CX fail core. Also got a MK4 IAT.


 What intercooler did u go with?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

gti vr6er said:


> What intercooler did u go with?


 Treadstone TR1035 
http://www.treadstoneperformance.co...key=63&prodname=TR1035+and+TR1045+Intercooler 

I went with this because it is not as wide as a PTE 600 core. It also has baffled end tanks for even flow across the core.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

Let's talk more about this intercooler issue as I thought they were all pretty much created equal. I have a CX Racing bar and plate 29" x 9" x 2.75" core. Why specifically do you think your intercooler was insufficient? Was it the same size? Does bar and plate vs. tube and fin make a difference? I know on my last dyno my MAT was 113*f and ambient was 102* so my charge air is not getting cooled very well but I was running back to back runs and had massive heat soak (first time I have ever operated the dyno myself and I obviously had no idea how to do it properly and ended up creating problems for myself). 

If it becomes evident from the discussion in here that I need to upgrade my intercooler I would probably be more likely to go with an air to water instead of another air to air, especially given how reasonable the AWIC setups from frozen boost are as compared to "legit" FMICs. 

Thoughts?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

obdONE said:


> Let's talk more about this intercooler issue as I thought they were all pretty much created equal. I have a CX Racing bar and plate 29" x 9" x 2.75" core. Why specifically do you think your intercooler was insufficient? Was it the same size? Does bar and plate vs. tube and fin make a difference? I know on my last dyno my MAT was 113*f and ambient was 102* so my charge air is not getting cooled very well but I was running back to back runs and had massive heat soak (first time I have ever operated the dyno myself and I obviously had no idea how to do it properly and ended up creating problems for myself).
> 
> If it becomes evident from the discussion in here that I need to upgrade my intercooler I would probably be more likely to go with an air to water instead of another air to air, especially given how reasonable the AWIC setups from frozen boost are as compared to "legit" FMICs.
> 
> Thoughts?


 Well, looking at my logs I was heat soaking doing second gear pulls. I like the new intercooler I got because it has internal baffles to take advantage of the entire core. Most intercoolers favor the path of least resistance and wind up only using the area in front of the inlet. Am I over doing it, maybe but one think I have learned is buy quality stuff or you will do it over again and again. 

I have a similar sized CX core, only slightly narrower.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

those intercooler looks quality and the price is very nice! good buy:thumbup:


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

so that treadstone core is $290 and a 600hp awic kit from frozenboost is $300 with standard options, so why not go with awic? simplicity of reusing existing piping? If we are to believe what the respective manufacturers say, the fmic has a 2% pressure drop and the awic has a .1% probably not a huge huge difference in the real world, but it sounds nice on paper. Also the awic's seem to keep MAT temps at or below ambient pretty categorically. 

anyways, If I switch to a new setup, it will definitely be awic and not another fmic, but perhaps I'm just buying into some hype.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

obdONE said:


> so that treadstone core is $290 and a 600hp awic kit from frozenboost is $300 with standard options, so why not go with awic? simplicity of reusing existing piping? If we are to believe what the respective manufacturers say, the fmic has a 2% pressure drop and the awic has a .1% probably not a huge huge difference in the real world, but it sounds nice on paper. Also the awic's seem to keep MAT temps at or below ambient pretty categorically.
> 
> anyways, If I switch to a new setup, it will definitely be awic and not another fmic, but perhaps I'm just buying into some hype.


 Good points, I thought about AWIC also, but I think for a street/strip car air to air is a good choice. Just buy a good core and it will do whatever you need. AWIC setups are not all created equal, they need to be setup right or they are worthless. There is also a good bit of fab work need to get them in there. A good quality pump is key for a AWIC setup, because if it fails you loose your cooling.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Finally, I can say my car is fixed. I do need valve seals eventually, throws a puff of smoke when you let off at high rpm and engine break. Other than that, feels really good for 14 deg advance at .5 bar.:beer: Back in the VW! Next is the new IC and swap the trans over after I put the new one together.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

:beer:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Curious to see how that intercooler works out for him.


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## The*Fall*Guy (Aug 10, 2009)

Good thread:thumbup:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Well, looking at my logs I was heat soaking doing second gear pulls. I like the new intercooler I got because it has internal baffles to take advantage of the entire core. Most intercoolers favor the path of least resistance and wind up only using the area in front of the inlet. Am I over doing it, maybe but one think I have learned is buy quality stuff or you will do it over again and again.
> 
> I have a similar sized CX core, only slightly narrower.


I've always said the quality of an IC makes a difference. There's an article i read on a blog (A guy that worked for the Lancia race team back in the day) and he tested various IC on his Intergrale. (pressure lost, pre/post IAT & the temp changes across the IC) He proved that most IC cool the first 6-10". There's no further drop in temp. I gotta find the article but it influenced my decision when i was looking for one. In the end i found a BNIB VWMS/Skoda Motorsport rally IC (rated @ 750hp) thanks to Mike @ TS 15x12x3 2.5" in/out. Bulletproof endtanks 











I hope i don't have any carnage pics. I tend to plan a build with plenty of room to work with. This way i'm no where near the limit. I guess this is why i haven't made the jump to a standalone. I'm happy in the sub 20 psi range. If i can get 425 to the wheels, i'm good. Doing it under 20 psi, goal accomplished. I'm not a fan of turning up the boost to crazy levels. My VRT will most likely never see a track so there's no need for crazy power. My turbo must hate me as it sleeps most of the time.

I noticed that some of you guys are thinking in the context of a full on race car where you're running it at the limit & the goal is how to keep it together. I love the conversation but sadly my reality is i can't afford anymore speeding tickets.....and its very hard not to speed in the Jetta. 

Next project though.....i can talk geekastani then.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I wish I could just go all out, that is my dream. Unfortunately being in the military has put me far away from any tracks. I wish I still lived in PA, so I could be more active with drag racing. I will be the first to admit this was kinda my fault, I pushed what I had to far. I did the same with my last vrt, but never had any issues. I think I have learned some hard lessons this last 6 months. One, don't use what is just good enough. Second, quality is second to nothing.
sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## Highbeam2 (Jan 25, 2012)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I wish I could just go all out, that is my dream. Unfortunately being in the military has put me far away from any tracks. I wish I still lived in PA, so I could be more active with drag racing. I will be the first to admit this was kinda my fault, I pushed what I had to far. I did the same with my last vrt, but never had any issues. I think I have learned some hard lessons this last 6 months. One, don't use what is just good enough. Second, quality is second to nothing.
> sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


I agree with you man, the military has kept me away from a lot of track time. All out is a question of "What am I doing with the car?" "Is it a daily driver ready for strip abuse?" I don't believe it's your fault, things happen. I also agree quality is key but I think a VR6 is a quality motor hands down. I've pushed and poked and prodded and it's done nothing but respond. Not saying I haven't had faults (breaks) but for me when it's counted it hasn't let me down. From Queens, NY to West Point, Walter Reed, D.C., FT Campbell, KY, FT Hood Texas. 
Military life at easy but cruising in my Cabby makes it entertaining


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## Scrubbs (Mar 14, 2006)

(One, don't use what is just good enough. Second, quality is second to nothing.)

Those last 2 sentences are worth millions.:thumbup:


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## dr. b (Jul 14, 2005)

obdONE said:


> so that treadstone core is $290 and a 600hp awic kit from frozenboost is $300 with standard options, so why not go with awic? simplicity of reusing existing piping? If we are to believe what the respective manufacturers say, the fmic has a 2% pressure drop and the awic has a .1% probably not a huge huge difference in the real world, but it sounds nice on paper. Also the awic's seem to keep MAT temps at or below ambient pretty categorically.
> 
> anyways, If I switch to a new setup, it will definitely be awic and not another fmic, but perhaps I'm just buying into some hype.





GinsterMan98 said:


> Good points, I thought about AWIC also, but I think for a street/strip car air to air is a good choice. Just buy a good core and it will do whatever you need. AWIC setups are not all created equal, they need to be setup right or they are worthless. There is also a good bit of fab work need to get them in there. A good quality pump is key for a AWIC setup, because if it fails you loose your cooling.


i'm running a modified version of the FB AWIC system in my R. like all things with turbo VRs, it has been a bit of a process. but i don't have the heat-soak problems that a lot of AAIC guys seem to have. my car needs a little more revision. but if you are mechanically inclined, patient, and diligent, an AWIC setup is far superior to an AAIC. the only place i can see the AAIC guys having an advantage is on long highway pulls in clean air. similarly, the AAIC will have a greater charge cooling potential, but significantly less consistency. i use a modified power steering pump to drive my AWIC system to reduce heat soak and to stage coolant flow with engine speed. i plan to fab up a larger reservoir soon, but otherwise....my system is the balls. i can rip it from 0-155 (closed course with safety marshalls, i promise), then drive it thru the drive-thru at taco bell, and then take the expressway home. pop the hood as soon as i park and i can put my hand on the charge cooler and it's nice and cool.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

Your car won't go that fast, and you only eat Penn Station  I can attest to the efficiency of the frozen boost coolers, well made and do the trick. If you head to the track you can always dump a bag of ice in too.


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## dr. b (Jul 14, 2005)

wabbitGTl said:


> Your car won't go that fast, and you only eat Penn Station  I can attest to the efficiency of the frozen boost coolers, well made and do the trick. If you head to the track you can always dump a bag of ice in too.


this guy.
you better hope i don't make it to the track with you fools anytime soon.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

dr. b said:


> i'm running a modified version of the FB AWIC system in my R.





wabbitGTl said:


> I can attest to the efficiency of the frozen boost coolers, well made and do the trick.


What size cores are you guys running?
What boost level are you guys running?


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## Highbeam2 (Jan 25, 2012)

^^ V-dubbulyuh you know me 13lbs so far leaving everything behind
Air Inlet/Outlet: 3.0" 
Water Inlet/Outlet: 1/2" NPT
Core Size: 10"x4.5"x4.5" (Endtanks add to length)


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

From my understanding w2a, unless your using ice all the time, takes longer for the heat from charge air to exit the system. With a2a, you will heat soak in traffic but you have like 10 times the air needed to cool your charge air with a core sized to support your power. 
Since I use my car for street/strip, a2a is the best option. A2w has more places heat has to go before being transferred to the outside air. A2w also takes longer to recover from hard pulls because of this fact, where a good a2a system recovers very quickly if sized right. I agree that a2w is ideal for a drag car, but I don't think it is best for multiple use cars when space is available for a good a2a core.

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Air to air superior to air to water in function? Not in standard applications. I suppose you could create a mismatch scenario to support the other side of the argument but that's not 98% of applications. There's a reason we have water-cooled internal combustion engines now rather than air-cooled. The only benefit of air to air over air to water for charge cooling purposes, ceteris paribus, is cost, simplicity and weight. Simple thermodynamics brain exercise:

How long does it take to heat an empty fry pan? Not long at all.

How long does it take to heat a 2 gallon pot of water? What makes the AWIC the best is the energy in the form of heat in the charge air is easily absorbed by the mass of water circulating through and being radiated in the front-mount heat exchanger. This means your charge air temp is extremely stable. In an air to air system there is very low mass which means your charge air temp is potentially unstable in a burst operation. An air to air will heatsoak sooner than an AWIC due to the relative lower mass acting on the charge air.


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## dr. b (Jul 14, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> What size cores are you guys running?
> What boost level are you guys running?


probably 12x3x6. not huge. there are a bunch of pics in my build thread.



DieGTi said:


> Air to air superior to air to water in function? Not in standard applications. I suppose you could create a mismatch scenario to support the other side of the argument but that's not 98% of applications. There's a reason we have water-cooled internal combustion engines now rather than air-cooled. The only benefit of air to air over air to water for charge cooling purposes, ceteris paribus, is cost, simplicity and weight. Simple thermodynamics brain exercise:
> 
> How long does it take to heat an empty fry pan? Not long at all.
> 
> How long does it take to heat a 2 gallon pot of water? What makes the AWIC the best is the energy in the form of heat in the charge air is easily absorbed by the mass of water circulating through and being radiated in the front-mount heat exchanger. This means your charge air temp is extremely stable. In an air to air system there is very low mass which means your charge air temp is potentially unstable in a burst operation. An air to air will heatsoak sooner than an AWIC due to the relative lower mass acting on the charge air.


that's a smart dude right there.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Your theory is correct. That being said, water takes longer to cool just like it takes longer to heat up. I am not an engoneer, but I know there are 9 sec VW's running a2a cores. Both work, with a slight advantage to a2w in terms of cooling efficiency. That being said, if it gets hot it will take longer to cool off. I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure my logic is correct. I want to see MAT data before I agree that a2w is A better overall system.

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I didnt mean to come off as being angry. This a good discussion, want to keep this civil and informative.

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

I agree, we need good info in here... and I also like airtoair as its simple and less things to worry about plus it works and its proven...

my Precision intecooler core is 31 1/2L x 10 5/8"H x 3 1/2" D with custom endtanks and 3" intercooler pipings...


:beer:


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

Love the discussion going on here. I researched quite a bit before putting my setup together, but by no means am I an expert. From what I understand one of the big variables in the efficiency of AWIC systems is the size of the lines and the flow rate of the pump in additional to the size of the heat exchanger. I'm using a Rule 400 "bilge" pump, 3/4 lines, and a 26x10x3 exchanger (i believe). I haven't gotten too far into data logging and don't have any handy, but even on 85+ degree days I can keep the intake temps around 90F after multiple pulls. This is at a very modest 10psi :beer:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Both work, with a slight advantage to a2w in terms of cooling efficiency. That being said, if it gets hot it will take longer to cool off. I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure my logic is correct.


I understand you're point of heatsoaking effects on an AWIC and the recovery to lower temps being longer than air to air. A pot of boiling water takes longer to cool than an empty fry pan. The issue with that is you'll never find a stretch of road long enough to heatsoak a properly configured awic system; it is constantly cooling the water in a radiator up front that is exposed to air the same as an air to air system. It's constantly circulating and cooling when you're out of boost and sitting in traffic as you can add a small rad fan to the heat exchanger. 

The AWIC exchanges heat in fresh air flow the same as an air to air. Sure, you can get a huge air to air that won't heatsoak as fast while in burst operation but you lose spool response. The air required to cool the air to air is also cooling the AWIC water through the heat exchanger. The mass differential in the awic keeps it cooler longer in extreme operation relative to the air to air. Does an air to air work? Sure does. Does an AWIC work, sure does. Can you go fast with either intercooler, yup. Is an air to air more "reliable" because it is simpler without adding electrical or moving parts to the system, yes. Those answers are enough for most people. But, if you want large HP burst capability with limited space for heat exchangers then you're better with an AWIC. The smaller distance from compressor to tb on an awic will give you faster throttle response and quicker spool. Simple as that. I've run both and was happy with both. The top speed is the same but the car has more "under the curve" power from a seat of the pants perspective with the awic and all other things being equal. Fuel economy is the same...


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

DieGTi said:


> I understand you're point of heatsoaking effects on an AWIC and the recovery to lower temps being longer than air to air. A pot of boiling water takes longer to cool than an empty fry pan. The issue with that is you'll never find a stretch of road long enough to heatsoak a properly configured awic system; it is constantly cooling the water in a radiator up front that is exposed to air the same as an air to air system. It's constantly circulating and cooling when you're out of boost and sitting in traffic as you can add a small rad fan to the heat exchanger.
> 
> The AWIC exchanges heat in fresh air flow the same as an air to air. Sure, you can get a huge air to air that won't heatsoak as fast while in burst operation but you lose spool response. The air required to cool the air to air is also cooling the AWIC water through the heat exchanger. The mass differential in the awic keeps it cooler longer in extreme operation relative to the air to air. Does an air to air work? Sure does. Does an AWIC work, sure does. Can you go fast with either intercooler, yup. Is an air to air more "reliable" because it is simpler without adding electrical or moving parts to the system, yes. Those answers are enough for most people. But, if you want large HP burst capability with limited space for heat exchangers then you're better with an AWIC. The smaller distance from compressor to tb on an awic will give you faster throttle response and quicker spool. Simple as that. I've run both and was happy with both. The top speed is the same but the car has more "under the curve" power from a seat of the pants perspective with the awic and all other things being equal. Fuel economy is the same...


All good points. A2W is just to much for me to mess with right now. I have thought about it before, but just never decided to do it. I also don't like overly complex things, introduces more points of failure. Although I will admit right here that I have zero real world experience with AWIC setups. I am only going off of what I have read here and on Hondatech. Thanks to all including you for sharing real world experience.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

DieGTi said:


> The AWIC exchanges heat in fresh air flow the same as an air to air.


Andrew... I don't disagree with your other points or even your conclusions, but in my mind the limitation of the air/water system is this right here ^^^. The AWIC system is actually LESS able to instantaneously reject heat to the ambient because in the radiator the inlet water temperature is going to be much closer to ambient than the inlet air temperature would be in an air/air cooler.

As everyone knows, water has a high heat capacity, thus it requires a lot of heat input (watts) for the water temperature to measurably increase. This is great on the intercooler end since it maintains a large delta T from air -> water, but on the radiator end the water carries a lot of heat at a relatively ~low temperature, so there is a small delta T from water -> ambient air and it is difficult to shed heat. Because of this, unless you have an infinitely large radiator, the water will always pick up more heat in the intercooler than it loses in the radiator and the water temperature has to rise continuously (albeit, slowly).

This is theory... not practice. In the real world you can obviously mitigate this issue by having a a large cooling capacity, large radiators, large pump, fans, ... and it's usually a non-issue because as you say, you can't boost indefinitely (stop lights, traffic, etc.). If you set up your system for your driving style, then I don't think this is a problem at all. At that point, it's only cost/complexity/weight. 

Ginster... the new intercooler looks good. I'd love to cut open the end tank and see exactly how they did the divider. I have a similar idea that I've been working on


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

leebro61 said:


> Andrew... I don't disagree with your other points or even your conclusions, but in my mind the limitation of the air/water system is this right here ^^^. The AWIC system is actually LESS able to instantaneously reject heat to the ambient because in the radiator the inlet water temperature is going to be much closer to ambient than the inlet air temperature would be in an air/air cooler.
> 
> As everyone knows, water has a high heat capacity, thus it requires a lot of heat input (watts) for the water temperature to measurably increase. This is great on the intercooler end since it maintains a large delta T from air -> water, but on the radiator end the water carries a lot of heat at a relatively ~low temperature, so there is a small delta T from water -> ambient air and it is difficult to shed heat. Because of this, unless you have an infinitely large radiator, the water will always pick up more heat in the intercooler than it loses in the radiator and the water temperature has to rise continuously (albeit, slowly).
> 
> ...


Maybe I can get in there with a pocket mirror.


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## The*Fall*Guy (Aug 10, 2009)

leebro61 said:


> Andrew... I don't disagree with your other points or even your conclusions, but in my mind the limitation of the air/water system is this right here ^^^. The AWIC system is actually LESS able to instantaneously reject heat to the ambient because in the radiator the inlet water temperature is going to be much closer to ambient than the inlet air temperature would be in an air/air cooler.
> 
> As everyone knows, water has a high heat capacity, thus it requires a lot of heat input (watts) for the water temperature to measurably increase. This is great on the intercooler end since it maintains a large delta T from air -> water, but on the radiator end the water carries a lot of heat at a relatively ~low temperature, so there is a small delta T from water -> ambient air and it is difficult to shed heat. Because of this, unless you have an infinitely large radiator, the water will always pick up more heat in the intercooler than it loses in the radiator and the water temperature has to rise continuously (albeit, slowly).


First I apologize for my somewhat rude interruption, as I was not part of this exchange.

That said; if your theory about the temperature of the water continuing to rise slowly; the same theory would apply to your engine's cooling system.

If this were the case, your engine would eventually overheat during a long drive. Obviously this isn't the case; as the system is properly sized, and engineered to 'only get so hot'.

Just my thoughts. Great thread guys:beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

So in other words, the size of your heat exchanger is your thermostat in a AWIC setup.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

The*Fall*Guy said:


> First I apologize for my somewhat rude interruption, as I was not part of this exchange.
> 
> That said; if your theory about the temperature of the water continuing to rise slowly; the same theory would apply to your engine's cooling system.
> 
> ...


Let me rephrase because I probably said/explained that poorly. The water temperature will continue to rise until it gets so hot that the delta T across the radiator is then sufficient to transfer enough heat. 

The reason you don't see this phenomenon in your cooling system is because your coolant temperature are ~190-200 F.... so even on a 100 F day you've got a ~100 F delta T across the radiator. If you had ~150 F water temps in your air/water system, the water temperature would stop rising, but your performance would be pretty bad at this point. :thumbup:


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## cosmicmkII (Apr 20, 2006)

I would like to bring back the topic of the rear bank of cylinders losing the ring lands. 

I had my car at the tuner last year on Saturday. Not a big dollar setup but I got 330 whp on 91 octane fuel at 18 psi. Not bad for a T3/T4, Low timing. We decided to do one last run to ensure it was working and we saw a puff of smoke... Drove it home and did a compression test. Low compression on Cylinders 1 and 5. 

Pulled it apart on sunday and put it back togeather after honing the bores and new rings. set the boost to 11 psi. all was well.

Monday did a pull on the highway and POOF...another puff of smoke. Cylinders 1 and 5 again. :sly:

I sent the timing map off to Kevin @ lugtronic to make sure we hadn't somehow messed up. nothing was wrong.. very conservative.



















I have since sold the SDS and bought Lugtronic. A new (used) longblock is going in and I will be taking it back to the tuner. I am having the injectors flow checked and cleaned and I am still running MK4 stock cams.

So can anyone (tuners) expand on how we can prevent this from happening? I know **** happens...but twice in 2 days? FML

Sorry for the long post.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Damn, I am sorry for you bro. That sucks right there. Whats your MAT look like on the dyno?


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## cosmicmkII (Apr 20, 2006)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Damn, I am sorry for you bro. That sucks right there. Whats your MAT look like on the dyno?


From what I recall my Intake temps (I think that is what you are saying with MAT) were not out of whack..Nothing I would be alarmed at. I could be off, but I am running a pretty thick Spearco intercooler. I never had issues with intake temps with my 1.8T mk2 and make 333 whp on that, same turbo.

Its frustrating knowing I can put it all back togeather and have the same thing happen a couple days later. I fully Trust that Lugtronic is leaps and bounds ahead of the SDS and Kevin is awesome with his support thus far. I just hate the thought of pulling it apart again. I only have one, maybe 2 more in me and I will swap it out for a 1.8t


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, IAT or MAT. Well that brings me to my second question, how rich were the AFR's on tip in?


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

[QUOTE

I have since sold the SDS and bought Lugtronic. A new (used) longblock is going in and I will be taking it back to the tuner. I am having the injectors flow checked and cleaned.[/QUOTE]

Have Kevin tune your car when its ready... if you r far away from Kevin he can tune ur car from the data logs from the lugtronic ecu and or remote tuning live via internet


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

Use the air temp sensor from the 1.8t as well... it reacts faster so it can save the engine :beer:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

leebro61 said:


> Andrew... I don't disagree with your other points or even your conclusions, but in my mind the limitation of the air/water system is this right here ^^^. The AWIC system is actually LESS able to instantaneously reject heat to the ambient because in the radiator the inlet water temperature is going to be much closer to ambient than the inlet air temperature would be in an air/air cooler.
> 
> As everyone knows, water has a high heat capacity, thus it requires a lot of heat input (watts) for the water temperature to measurably increase. This is great on the intercooler end since it maintains a large delta T from air -> water, but on the radiator end the water carries a lot of heat at a relatively ~low temperature, so there is a small delta T from water -> ambient air and it is difficult to shed heat. Because of this, unless you have an infinitely large radiator, the water will always pick up more heat in the intercooler than it loses in the radiator and the water temperature has to rise continuously (albeit, slowly).
> 
> This is theory... not practice. In the real world you can obviously mitigate this issue by having a a large cooling capacity, large radiators, large pump, fans, ... and it's usually a non-issue because as you say, you can't boost indefinitely (stop lights, traffic, etc.). If you set up your system for your driving style, then I don't think this is a problem at all.


Yeah... my point was to draw attention to the heat exchanger role in the awic system as it is often discounted or ignored entirely when comparing to an air to air system. 

To the guy that lost back cyls and just posted : did you gauge your bore while you had it apart? To lose ringlands in such a manner would suggest a bore out of round or worn out of spec.



-Andrew


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

I like the awic & a/a debate going on here :thumbup: I went pretty balls out w/ my awic system and its been awesome so far. I have yet to check actual temps w/ a thermometer, but 7 long hwy pulls at 30psi and I had damn near ambient temps. Pop the hood and the i/c core is cool to the touch. I used a huge pump w/ all 1" ID lines, fittings etc. my core, hx and reserve tank are all 1" inlet/outlet also. My theory was super high flow should = high efficiency , im not an engineer but it did work out damn good. a/a would be my first choice just for simplicity, but its really tough to get proper size cores/ airflow in VW's w/o a ton of cutting.

I got the highest fin count / 2 pass hx I could find, since I was limited on space. Its a ford lightning LFP (aftermarket) hx core modified w/ 1" npt fittings. supposedly its 30% more efficient than the cxr/low fin count cores.


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## Scrubbs (Mar 14, 2006)

I agree with pj, tip in fuel possibly. Also are those pistons coated or just that dirty? Check dimensions of the bore and piston. That seems like alot of build up on them if the bores are in spec.


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## rtolay (Dec 14, 2005)

this has happend to alot of people including myself...cylinder 5 always is the worst, i stop it when i added 4 to 5% more fuel on the back, i have 6 egts and the temps from the front and the back r up to 300 degrees diff at idle and about 200 degrees at wot....i also found out that no matter how conservative ur timing and a/f are if ur using pump gas it still gonna happend.....unless u dont go about 15 psi...


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## 1SlowSLC (May 4, 2003)

I had a response to this post, but Dasbeast pretty much took the words right out of my mouth on alot of points.:thumbup: I took a very similar path when planning out my AWIC setup. So Ill just skip the double talk....

Most people go with too small or low quality components, usually because of budget or saying this part is "good enough", thus having a inefficient AW system...

I believe a large heat exchanger, large lines with minimal bends, a sufficient volume of water in the overall system, and a quality AWIC core are the main things to focus on. A radiator fan for the HE is also a good move.

The heat exchange core Schimmel includes with his AWIC kit, in my opinion is undersized. I believe a HE core should hold close to double the volume of the AWIC core.

I went a little overkill on my AWIC core, and chose a pt1001 awic core. It isn't much larger than a 700hp awic core (so no real lag issues to worry about) and added cooling capacity. I also bought a quality mezzier pump, -12 lines, and a heat exchanger very much like Dasbeasts. Should work like a charm once its all buttoned up. Keep the good information flowing in here:beer:


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## 20V_DUBBIN (Aug 29, 2007)

Clogged injector.


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## daunicorn (Apr 20, 2005)

Saw your post over on panhandle. Interesting carnage. This thread makes me want to rethink parts of my build for my caddy.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Yeah, not my proudest moment, Lol. If you have any questions, fire away. 

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

20V_DUBBIN said:


> Clogged injector.


 Damn, take the valves out also?

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## 20V_DUBBIN (Aug 29, 2007)

Amazingly the valves, head, and block were all perfectly fine. I must have gotten that bastard hot because the piston just vaporized and accumulated on the intake side of the head.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

What brand piston?


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## 20V_DUBBIN (Aug 29, 2007)

Arias. The set was one off, the only set ever made by them in 81MM. Getting a replacement was fun


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I am very happy to report that the new intercooler is working great. Never saw over 37 Deg Cel during a second gear WOT run. Car feels very strong for 7 psi, can not wait to turn it up a bit and start enjoying this damn thing again.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I am very happy to report that the new intercooler is working great. Never saw over 37 Deg Cel during a second gear WOT run. Car feels very strong for 7 psi, can not wait to turn it up a bit and start enjoying this damn thing again.


And it is similar size to your previous eBay core?
Glad to hear that your new one is so much more efficient.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> And it is similar size to your previous eBay core?
> Glad to hear that your new one is so much more efficient.


Much thicker and higher quality. I will get some pics up tonight.

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Great stuff man. Get that thing up and running again. If you can you can also put up your old vs new intake temps. That would help out everyone too.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Great stuff man. Get that thing up and running again. If you can you can also put up your old vs new intake temps. That would help out everyone too.


With the last IC, I was sitting at 48 Deg Celsius while cruising and seeing high 80's at WOT. With the new IC, there is little change from cruise to WOT, only a few degree change. I do still have the majority of the bumper still, so there may be some room for improvement. I will get some pictures of what I came up with later and also show everyone why they should not buy a CX core. I never looked inside it until yesterday, kinda shocked by what I found...


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

I've always thought about rear bank cyl failures. Just imagine, 1,3,5 injectors are spraying fuel on the runners wall about 8cm away from the valve. At the same time 2,4,6 inj are pointed directly over the valve's head. Is the fuel evaporation the same for both banks? What about the wall film? There definitely should be some individual cyl or may be bank trims. Even if it was inline 6 cyl engine there is always some difference between cyl. filling due to the manifold design, etc. As I know the VEMS individual cyl fuel correction is just a constant % over the whole working range, i.e like you put 1,3,5 injectors with 5-10% greater flow compared to other three. That's definitely some improvement but you just can't accept that needed fuel correction should be constant % at low and high rpms, at low load and high boost etc. So unless we have 3D individual cyl correction tables for our engines, this constant % correction is a compromise too, at least concerning the power level and the fuel consumption.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Thanks for the informative post. Interesting point about the port design if the VR head.

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> With the last IC, I was sitting at 48 Deg Celsius while cruising and seeing high 80's at WOT. With the new IC, there is little change from cruise to WOT, only a few degree change. I do still have the majority of the bumper still, so there may be some room for improvement. I will get some pictures of what I came up with later and also show everyone why they should not buy a CX core. I never looked inside it until yesterday, kinda shocked by what I found...


Is that 80 degree Celsius at wot? Geezz


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I know :banghead:

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> ..show everyone why they should not buy a CX core. I never looked inside it until yesterday, kinda shocked by what I found...


yes, please do. I'm still running my CX core. I would also like to know if there's a difference between the tube and fin (standard cheapo core) and the bar and plate core like I have. I guess there's no way to find out unless I cut mine open, lol.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

obdONE said:


> yes, please do. I'm still running my CX core. I would also like to know if there's a difference between the tube and fin (standard cheapo core) and the bar and plate core like I have. I guess there's no way to find out unless I cut mine open, lol.


Pics in a few.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Pics in a few.


 Now, I know there hardcore CX guys out there. This is not intended to discredit them at all, just show that there QA is not up to par IMHO. If I owned a company I would have never let this intercooler out the door. Hard to see in the pic but three passages have weld material blocking the passages about 3/4 inches in from the obvious burn though during manufacturing. Even worse, the core leaks because there is oil coming from the one end cap. My fault for not testing it and inspecting it before install. Be careful what you waste your money out there people.








Pure junk









Core size is 22"x7"x2.5". Small, but others on here use this very core because it is easy to mount to a MK3. I have seen it one other cars making high 300's. Either way, it was to small and should have not been my choice. I would be more concerned about the build quality.

EDIT

I should also add that I could not get a clear pic of the 6 or 7 other passages that look like this because they are too far up in the end tank. I would say 60% of the passages have this weld damage.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Definitely useful info. I have not seen an eBay core in that bad shape but per your pics there are clearly some manufacturing issues. Gonna certainly start looking at them a bit closer thanks to you. 

I think for lower budget builds on low boost (anything less than 8 psi) the shiity eBay cores will probably still suffice but as you have pointed out, when cooling is more critical at the higher boost levels you perhaps need to invest in something much better. For the guys running low boost with a ton of other mechanical & drivability issue anyway an intercooler like the one you posted probably will not be the weakest link in the car... given that it is not system-critical at that kind of power level.

Good post. :thumbup:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Yeah, it was a poor decision on my part. My choice to run this core cost me a good bottom end in the long run, not the chips fault. Hope this may steer someone away from trying to be cheap. It's kinda funny really, if you would not run a E bay turbo due to quality issues, what makes one think the intercoolers are any different.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Hey at least the intercoolers last longer than the oil lines.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Oh noes, you have one fail recently?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I attempted to use one on a personal project (budget build) a few yrs back. The feed line lasted a few minutes-literally. Ok maybe bad luck on my behalf... Did a car for a friend about a yr ago, they brought the same pathetic cheap azz oil line kit to me. Lasted the test drive then some nice smoke under the hood. The rubber is too soft and as the oil makes it expand the rubber gets pinched by the stainless braid. Failed in the same manner each time. High pressure oil come out and lubricates your entire engine bay. :thumbup:

I use the proper stuff on my cars though.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Well at least the motor survived right? Sure it was a mess.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

The flow of that line is not usually enough to starve the motor once you catch it quickly/shut everything down. :laugh: Yeah the motors survived.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

cut the end tanks off and see how bad it really is :laugh:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

obdONE said:


> cut the end tanks off and see how bad it really is :laugh:


 I should, I was going to hang on the wall as some garage bling.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Interesting, I run a rather large tube plate style cooler and my temps stay low which is surprising to me.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

masterqaz said:


> Interesting, I run a rather large tube plate style cooler and my temps stay low which is surprising to me.


Like I said, this was not saying all cheap intercoolers are junk. Just that the companies making them will let substandard workmanship out the door. I will never trust any E Bay or other off brand, no name company products ever again when it comes to intercoolers or radiators. I got a nice bar and plate Treadstone core for like 150 more than I paid for this POS. I am also sticking with a OEM rad instead of using a aluminum one for the same reason. This was not intended to knock people who run them, just buyer beware like everything else that comes from China. Some times its good and other times it is substandard.


----------



## Nastyboost35 (Mar 26, 2007)

just curious what type of end gap you guys are running on your pistons? All this talk of ring land failure makes me wonder if the heat is getting to the rings on those back cylinders and contributing a little to the failures. I know a factory vr is about .018 factory correct? If you check out some of the factory turbo cars ( evo's , sti's , supras) They all run about .021-.026 first ring and a little larger on the second ring. Just throwing it out there.


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

Interesting how fast you melt the piston if something goes wrong :what:
Especially, considering that VR6 have oil spray to cool them down.

Appears to be that regardless build or oem engine, if something goes wrong you have only seconds before part let go under the boost.

On contrary guys here stating 28PSI on stock engine, it's just amassing. Here I am worry about seen 15PSI at 3500RPM and tuning it down to 10 :banghead:

Running mapped boost control here.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I've seen a few other than myself with melted pistons on the Siemens 60lbs injectors failing... I'm probably going to look into alternatives for fear or losing another piston. Might be able to catch one lagging by reading your plugs every oil change or so. I had been following that rule and still lost a piston because all it takes is one pull with an injector down to do serious damage.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

DieGTi said:


> I've seen a few other than myself with melted pistons on the Siemens 60lbs injectors failing... I'm probably going to look into alternatives for fear or losing another piston.


What kinda miles did you have on the Siemens injector at the time of failure? I've been lucky to never have had issues with them and I have them on two cars that are regularly driven. What other 60lb injectors are you considering?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> What kinda miles did you have on the Siemens injector at the time of failure? I've been lucky to never have had issues with them and I have them on two cars that are regularly driven. What other 60lb injectors are you considering?


Miles somewhere around 20k when the first failed. Never over 85% duty cycle and 4 bar fuel pressure. There are 5 more in there closer to 25k now but I am wary. I try to listen for hiccups/idle misfires more closely now but picking up a slight miss on 1/6 isn't easily done.

-Andrew


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Sucks you've had so many issues on those Siemens injectors. What are you looking at for an alternative?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Sucks you've had so many issues on those Siemens injectors. What are you looking at for an alternative?


Yeah, I have heard nothing but praise about Siemens. Maybe RC 750's?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Yeah, I have heard nothing but praise about Siemens. Maybe RC 750's?


Correct, I've been very happy with mine so far too. :thumbup:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Don't get me wrong... I was happy until one quit and cost me a piston. Only then did I hear from the distributor that most seem to fail open so I was just unlucky.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

DieGTi said:


> Don't get me wrong... I was happy until one quit and cost me a piston. Only then did I hear from the distributor that most seem to fail open so I was just unlucky.


That sucks for sure, hope I never have to deal with this failure. I am currently running these injectors.


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

simple_man said:


> On contrary guys here stating 28PSI on stock engine, it's just amassing. Here I am worry about seen 15PSI at 3500RPM and tuning it down to 10 :banghead:


 Still running strong, had it @ 32psi 2 weeks ago. I'm a firm believer in heavy water meth injection. People overlook the benefits :thumbup:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

dasbeast3.0 said:


> I'm a firm believer in heavy water meth injection. People overlook the benefits :thumbup:


Cheap insurance, performance increase... no idea why more guys don't use it.


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

A J&S Safeguard unit would be even the best insurance for every "boosted" engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjA8xiPd3SU&feature=player_embedded#!


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

vr-vagman said:


> A J&S Safeguard unit would be even the best insurance for every "boosted" engine:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjA8xiPd3SU&feature=player_embedded#!


My car is torn down for some tranny work right now. Without a doubt I am ordering a Snow II or III kit. I have not seen this knock detection system before...has anyone one used with chipped fueling?


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

J&S is not only detection unit. It is standalone unit. It detects which exactly cyl is knocking and retards it until it stops and then again advances it till next knock....It retards just the knocking one, not all cyl's together, so engine doesn't lose power. It uses so called "knock window" for knock detection, so valve train noises are excluded. There is unit for dizzy, for active and for passive coils. Ford guys use it with great success. Just search the web and youtube.
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

vr-vagman said:


> J&S is not only detection unit. It is standalone unit. It detects which exactly cyl is knocking and retards it until it stops and then again advances it till next knock....It retards just the knocking one, not all cyl's together, so engine doesn't lose power. It uses so called "knock window" for knock detection, so valve train noises are excluded. There is unit for dizzy, for active and for passive coils. Ford guys use it with great success. Just search the web and youtube.
> http://www.jandssafeguard.com/


Sure beats using a det can, right? I have seen this before, really neat idea.

sent from a calculator using tapatalk.


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## vr-vagman (May 15, 2010)

You just can't react so fast with the throttle when you hear knock. Especially when you're on the road or on the dyno watching many other data. No "det can" on the market tells you which exactly cyl is knocking and you are always retarding all of them, losing that way great deal of power. J&S is very "clever" unit and doesn't need the engine sensors for cyl detection. Call John P. He's very helpful and nice guy. He offered group buys for Modular Ford forum members.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

vr-vagman said:


> You just can't react so fast with the throttle when you hear knock. Especially when you're on the road or on the dyno watching many other data. No "det can" on the market tells you which exactly cyl is knocking and you are always retarding all of them, losing that way great deal of power. J&S is very "clever" unit and doesn't need the engine sensors for cyl detection. Call John P. He's very helpful and nice guy. He offered group buys for Modular Ford forum members.


I was joking about the det can, but thanks for the info.:thumbup:


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

dasbeast3.0 said:


> Still running strong, had it @ 32psi 2 weeks ago. I'm a firm believer in heavy water meth injection. People overlook the benefits :thumbup:


Yeah, i know. I was looking at Aquamist system, usually used by high end guys. May give it a try later on. Love how you can program individual cylinder water delivery to mimic fuel injection duty with 5% accuracy :thumbup: 

I wonder how it will go with my E85 I plan to run...


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

GinsterMan98 said:


> So there was a VR6 that didn't want to run right. Opened it up and found cylinder number 1 and 5 with cracked ring lands. Let this serve as a warning to everyone out there that running rich does not equal safe. Be careful with your chip tunes out there.:beer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That happens with stock pistons even with a perfect tune. They are NOT as strong as people like to think they are. Ultimately, forged pistons are the only thing man enough to mix a bar+ of boost and 100+ K miles. It's why OEs use them.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

all good info, although i'm getting bad flashbacks from the pics :sly:

i don't drive mine daily so i'm thinking of blending 50% e85 in & going 4 bar reg, staying @ 12 psi, any input ??


----------



## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

I've been following this thread just to learn a bit more.... but now I'm in it with ya Ginster :banghead:

24v, mostly Kinetic, Eurojet Race FMIC, Siemens 630cc, PTE6262, 9:1 head spacer, ARP head studs, also lived it's life around 15-18 psi.

Merging onto the highway a few weeks ago #3 injector gave out, and eventually I found out the rings on cyl 3 + 5 died. Pistons and walls seemed to be alright, but I don't have the balls to just swap the rings and have at it like you did!

I think I'm gonna go with some JE pistons this time around..... maybe with an 82mm bore. Whenever I can get the $. And probably water/meth as a safety net.  Don't wanna go through this again.

In terms of injectors I've lost my faith with the Siemens..... whenever something fails like this I just lose all confidence and switch it up. What's the general consensus for more quality alternatives?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

kevhayward said:


> That happens with stock pistons even with a perfect tune. They are NOT as strong as people like to think they are. Ultimately, forged pistons are the only thing man enough to mix a bar+ of boost and 100+ K miles. It's why OEs use them.


I beg to differ good sir, this is more likely to happen on a chip tune where you have over fueling and no control of timing. There was a little blue car running SFWD on a stock bottom end making ~700hp. My engine was damaged by a crappy intercooler and me being cheap. I bet there are more than a few chip tuned cars with bad ring lands.




> 24vGTiVR6
> I've been following this thread just to learn a bit more.... but now I'm in it with ya Ginster
> 
> 24v, mostly Kinetic, Eurojet Race FMIC, Siemens 630cc, PTE6262, 9:1 head spacer, ARP head studs, also lived it's life around 15-18 psi.
> ...


 
Yup, swapped pistons and used the same rings.:laugh: Fixed the misfire at idle and at part throttle and restored a good portion of the lost compression, lol. I am getting a different bottom end when I go back home this August. I did this just to limp it along until I could find a engine. 

Do you guys swap the fuel filter when putting in new injectors?


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

after verifying no boost leaks it seems even a bit of xylene i added made it too rich so i guess it's good for a little :beer:85 as is...

i noticed 3.8 fpr in mercedes in the boneyard but i guess i should of noticed the 1.8t intake sensor instead


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

so i blended 2.5 gallons e85 & 8 gallons 91...perfect
11 lbs evoschmevo


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

_http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?736260-VR6-Forum-FAQ-s_


_If signals from the knock sensors indicate knocking combustion, the
control
unit retards the ignition timing of the knocking cylinder by 3° to max.
12°
until the knocking tendency of the concerned cylinder is reduced._
_When the knocking tendency no longer exists, the ignition timing is
returned
to the nominal value in steps of 0.5°._
_When knocking occurs, the ignition timing can be different for all
cylinders
because of the selective cylinder knock regulation._


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

EL DRIFTO said:


> so i blended 2.5 gallons e85 & 8 gallons 91...perfect
> 11 lbs evoschmevo


Haha, VRT > Evo.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Beating the horse from a few pages back... I'm trying out bank compensation to fuel 1-3-5 an additional 3-5.5% with the understanding that a collective sampling tune with an over-fuel on those cylinders could cook the pistons in 2-4-6.










:beer:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Haha, VRT > Evo.






_*skip to 3:30 for some action*_

lol...This is actually my turbo setup on Anthony's old built 3.0L. He parted out his mk3 soon after this vid & i bought the entire turbo setup.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

thats awesome!... do you know how fast was the evo in the 1/4?


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

PjS860ct said:


> thats awesome!... do you know how fast was the evo in the 1/4?


Nope....but that vid sold me on the turbo setup  Anthony was using a Quaife 6 spd on a built 3L running about 7.8:1cr. Last i heard he bought a 337 & bagged it. He only put about 2k on the VRT before parting out.


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

Hmm I like it when he says " It aint even high boost. I'm not even stressing my motor! You underfunkingstand that". :laugh:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

^^^ funny stuff right there, lol. 

A bit of an update to my new intercooler setup. I know a few were interested to see what I went with.

Head light supports were made from round stock.


















How I did the top part of the rad support that normally bolts to the crash bar which is non existent, lol.










Clearance at the back of the intercooler with the rad pushed back ~2 inches on the passenger side.










All together minus the bumper, which fits pretty good. I will post pics of that tomorrow.










Overall, I think it went pretty good.:beer:


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## Highbeam2 (Jan 25, 2012)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> I've been following this thread just to learn a bit more.... but now I'm in it with ya Ginster :banghead:
> 
> 24v, mostly Kinetic, Eurojet Race FMIC, Siemens 630cc, PTE6262, 9:1 head spacer, ARP head studs, also lived it's life around 15-18 psi.
> 
> ...


 Any updates?


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Not many people on here show their failures, I decided to share so people can see what happens when things don't go as planned.


Kinda getting repetitive but I should have carnage photo or two on piston #3.

Not tuning related, wastegate failed to open due to split signal line.  Car was running WOT & ~ 28psi or so when the vac line failed so obviously no room for error. Car probably saw 40 psi easily (still convinced my water-meth saved the block & other internals). Still was able to beat everything else that night (240's turbo, celica turbo, Bimmers, some bikes). Yes... I ran the car and *HARD *all night. Figured the motor was coming apart so whatever. Got home and noticed the crankcase pressure was obnoxiously high with blowby. Compression test the fol morning and cylinder 3 was 40 psi less than everything around it. At idle car pulled only 15 inch of vacuum. 

Stock block held up better than my "built" block, go figure. Further testament to why I do not advocate dumping thousands of dollars on a VR lower end if you are staying


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## 1SlowSLC (May 4, 2003)

kevhayward said:


> That happens with stock pistons even with a perfect tune. They are NOT as strong as people like to think they are. Ultimately, forged pistons are the only thing man enough to mix a bar+ of boost and 100+ K miles. It's why OEs use them.


Agree 100% :thumbup: I even said the same thing on the first page of this thread. Here:

"I toasted a stock piston, even with DTA management. High engine temps (mostly overheating) will kill a stock bottom end also.

The stock pistons let go on the ringlands 99% of the time. They just werent made to deal with boost."

Any overheating or detonation, and the ringlands will usually go on you.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

and finally, my contribution:










#1 piston. Drove fine until you crossed 18psi (seriously no hint of a problem up through 15psi and during normal cruising) and still made power even then and even though it would billow white smoke. As best as I can tell, I cracked the ring land on my way to the last dyno, as that's the first time my car threw the white smoke. So 380whp was achieved with a broken land and over 100* temps. Not bad.

My block is at the shop getting tanked right now and my buddy is going to check my head and an assortment of 10 pistons/ rods and get me squared away. Then I'll do a full oem rebuild with all ARP hardware and get her back on the road.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

obdONE said:


> and finally, my contribution:


 you're making me nervous again, jamie! glad to see you're getting it squared away though :beer:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Most forged pistons will have stronger ringlands... if your block/bores are within spec then I would highly recommend a set of forged drop-ins. They're available in stock bore size so no lost money on machine work and a new piece of mind achieved.


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

I am learning that cause of ring glands failure is coming from rings. As they overheat and expend, ends meet causing them to bend and push against ring glands. With enough heat, pressure is high and piston is soft.
Coming from this theory, older motors must be more tolerant to this problem due to rings been more wornout and more play allowed 
So, keeping engine cool should help us to overcome this problem. The way to cool piston is oil spay we have, so bring on your oil collers.
I gues tuning and fuel have a lot to do with it to. As well as water injection, as long as it is close to intake valve and do not evaporate before cylinder entry...

Any engine builders here to comment :wave:


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## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

I had 4 pistons with cracked ring lands, only 1 ring land actually let go and scratched the wall enough to
require a re-bore. Cylinders 3-6 were the culprits, 1 and 2 were fine. I'm going on the ring gap theory
to hopefully help this from happening again. Gapping the rings to .016 to .020, 82mm oem pistons.
The bore was also worn at the top in the direction towards the outside of the block on all bores to about 
+.003 which is the max allowed. Makes sense to me since the dish on the piston is not centered which
should push the piston in that direction. If you guys are just re-ringing with worn bores I don't see it 
working too well. I'm not an engine builder but a machinist.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

found another piston with a cracked land. oh well. bottom end is reassembled. I hope to have it in the car saturday.


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## .:V.R.6.6.6:. (Mar 30, 2007)

So much good info in here :beer:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

radoman57 said:


> I had 4 pistons with cracked ring lands, only 1 ring land actually let go and scratched the wall enough to
> require a re-bore. Cylinders 3-6 were the culprits, 1 and 2 were fine. I'm going on the ring gap theory
> to hopefully help this from happening again. Gapping the rings to .016 to .020, 82mm oem pistons.
> The bore was also worn at the top in the direction towards the outside of the block on all bores to about
> ...


 Hard to explain cracked ringlands on bores worn so ring gap is .050+... just not great piston design for forced induction.


----------



## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

another one with failed siemens 630's, they failed open, and flooded my **** all out. Now running genesis 
550cc @ 3.5 bar, the correct spray pattern (16VT) increased my idle significantly, much better drivability too


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## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

DieGTi said:


> Hard to explain cracked ringlands on bores worn so ring gap is .050+... just not great piston design for forced induction.


 How worn was the bore? .050 seems like alot, mine were like .014. 
I noticed most of the wear on the cylinder to be towards the top and to the outside, it was .003 which is the wear limit. To get to .050, wow, maybe lots of side clearance too


----------



## vwjettaspeed (Jan 22, 2003)

simple_man said:


> I am learning that cause of ring glands failure is coming from rings. As they overheat and expend, ends meet causing them to bend and push against ring glands. With enough heat, pressure is high and piston is soft.
> Coming from this theory, older motors must be more tolerant to this problem due to rings been more wornout and more play allowed
> So, keeping engine cool should help us to overcome this problem. The way to cool piston is oil spay we have, so bring on your oil collers.
> I gues tuning and fuel have a lot to do with it to. As well as water injection, as long as it is close to intake valve and do not evaporate before cylinder entry...
> ...


 Yes this is correct, I have seen this before. It seems as though us Vw guys are a year or more behind the rest of the pack. I owned an Evo for 2 years and then came back to Vw and had to laugh when I read about this new awesome thing called meth injection here on the vortex and I had been running it for A year already and many other Evo owners had been running it for years. No offense to the vortex, I love and defend VW to everyone at my buddies shop driving Supra's or 350z's with 2Jz's telling me my Vw's are over engineered pieces of crap.


----------



## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

first startup on sunday, went perfectly. My buddy said it was the best first start he's had thus far. Went to go break it in and did 3 or 4 pulls and the car handled great. No leaks, no overheating, great oil pressure, smooth sailing. Turned back onto the street to go home and a supreme mechanical knock erupted from the bottom end. sounds like metal ticking on metal, something in the rotating ass. Still not overheating, oil pressure at idle was like 10psi which is ok I guess, no leaks, etc. But the knock is awful. So we're thinking maybe we have a couple of mixed caps/ rods in there or something. I'm so pissed...

On cold start this morning, it sounded perfect. Once it heat up, the clack came back. I'm not starting it up anymore. If I have the fortitude of spirit, I'll try to take the pan off and see what's what on Wed.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

obdONE said:


> first startup on sunday, went perfectly. My buddy said it was the best first start he's had thus far. Went to go break it in and did 3 or 4 pulls and the car handled great. No leaks, no overheating, great oil pressure, smooth sailing. Turned back onto the street to go home and a supreme mechanical knock erupted from the bottom end. sounds like metal ticking on metal, something in the rotating ass. Still not overheating, oil pressure at idle was like 10psi which is ok I guess, no leaks, etc. But the knock is awful. So we're thinking maybe we have a couple of mixed caps/ rods in there or something. I'm so pissed...
> 
> On cold start this morning, it sounded perfect. Once it heat up, the clack came back. I'm not starting it up anymore. If I have the fortitude of spirit, I'll try to take the pan off and see what's what on Wed.


Man, that sucks to hear. Hope the motor is not done for.


----------



## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

Yeah, sorry to hear that, hopefully it’s not that bad.



simple_man said:


> I am learning that cause of ring glands failure is coming from rings. As they overheat and expend, ends meet causing them to bend and push against ring glands. With enough heat, pressure is high and piston is soft.
> Coming from this theory, older motors must be more tolerant to this problem due to rings been more wornout and more play allowed
> So, keeping engine cool should help us to overcome this problem. The way to cool piston is oil spay we have, so bring on your oil collers.
> I gues tuning and fuel have a lot to do with it to. As well as water injection, as long as it is close to intake valve and do not evaporate before cylinder entry...
> ...


Broken ring lands can only have three reasons; detonation, hydro lock or smashing the pistons in when rebuilding the engine without using a proper ring compression tool.

But the pistons with broken ring lands pictures showed here, are all from detonation, the piston which was a little torched(melted) towards the compression ring is most likely due to pre-ignition(could be caused by several severe detonations, due to/or a lean condition which glowed up the sparkplug or the exhaust valve).

The biggest problem with the VR6 engine is heat, as long as you can keep temperatures low(water, intake, exhaust(big turboback system)), you can beat on it, but when it starts to heat up(overheat), detonation will be knocking on your door(even with modest timing advance).

It doesn’t really come smoothly, it’s more like a threshold. 

If you think about it, how many people with a VR6 turbo, producing 2-3 times the original power, also upgrade their cooling system? How many radiators does the Bugatti Veyron have already?


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i've cracked ring lands in 5 abas & 2 vrs..it was always heatsoak, it always felt sloow before it went poof..

out of heater core to rear radiator, 4 cyl heater core pipe to 1" high press landscape pipe








the 87 scirocco had the space saver tire well & the radiator was still above the rear beam but not so on the mk3
haven't busted one yet & i'm more concerned with my ringlands than this
















back to the front & the straight half goes to the old oil heat exchangher, old inlet plugged
the other half goes back into the engine where the oe heater core used to go
















i haven't seen 200 oil since......
i'll be removing the cooling fan now for weight
i deleted the rubber strip from under the front edge of the hood & keep the hood cracked 3/4" by raising the center of the core support up
















here's what happened when the center core support bolts didn't exist








also couldn't figure out where i went wrong with my chip but the 30% e85 was to just lean it out enough so i ended up "recalibrating my maf diameter by making it adjustably bigger" or letting unmetered air in
it runs perfect with 15% e in it now & i'll have to run out more fuel before i can go straight 93 gas
















i figure not routing my crankcase back in may be where i went wrong


----------



## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

what psi are you guys seeing and at what AFR's?

I was at 11 psi seeing 11.3 to 12.5 stable - still running strong. I've flashed a few 13's when down shifting on the highway, instantly let off.

11.6 when im anywhere in between throttle. I have a bunch of carnage shots from the ring lands, more motivation to put this bullet proof block in ;-).

So far so good though, like others have said, they push 12 psi all day on 30 number tune no problem?


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

MarcoVR6SC said:


> Yeah, sorry to hear that, hopefully it’s not that bad.
> 
> 
> Broken ring lands can only have three reasons; detonation, hydro lock or smashing the pistons in when rebuilding the engine without using a proper ring compression tool.
> ...



what IAT and oil temps are considered hot?










I broke mine but that's because I was overboosting way outside of the normal range, but its funn you don't see any burning like you do on some of the other pistons, it just straight up fractured.


----------



## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

oh yea and i don't suggest driving around with a spun rod bearing for very long (got sold a junk motor)


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

MarcoVR6SC said:


> Yeah, sorry to hear that, hopefully it’s not that bad.
> 
> 
> Broken ring lands can only have three reasons; detonation, hydro lock or smashing the pistons in when rebuilding the engine without using a proper ring compression tool.
> ...


Thanks for the input :thumbup:

Thinking out loud, in OEM form, VR6 will output 180KW of heat at full blast via cooling circuit @ 7000RPM.
We Turbo it to 14 PSI, considering power needed to drive turbo (some 50HP) we probably over 400KW of heat and 300RW-KiloWatts. All that on OEM cooling.
It will surely will absorb short blast down the road, but any longer on boost and you loose it.

Some one above mentioned it, and I felt it to. On the racetrack you first feel the power drop - then see temperature claiming towards 115c (half way between middle and red). Engine is thermally saturated and keeps heating up.

Looks like if you can cool your VR6, you can get A LOT out of it without going billet. LUGTRONICS guys posted data running OEM engine with decompression plate at 33PSI. Stock pistons, stock rods, couple of years of 1/4 mile abuse :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

What are ideal AFR's for turbo VR's on static 10:1. I'm torn on my bullet proof short block whether to keep it 9:1 or pop in a spacer and sink it down to 8:1?

I was told on a MLS (150 vs 50 dollar head gasket) to keep my mk3 at 9:1 I can run up to about 20 psi on pump gas and up to 30 on race gas. Does this sound right? I have my shortblock kinda waiting in the winds until I pop the other stock longblock I have.

I'm debating putting a spacer in there with mls in the stock longblock im running now and enjoying those green tops. Then later down the road, maybe save and save get a way bigger turbo... pop the spacer in my bulletproof block, and run 8:1 pro mafs 60#'s etc.

Not sure which way to go at this point. I've pushed 12.5 afr's all day no kaboom yet, 11 psi or so - and that's creeping up to 12.5 and not going anywhere past at fast highway speeds at high rpms :thumbup: 

As of right now, I am not getting any traction.. I need some tires for the season.... the 30#'s and static 10:1 is kind of a tease considering how dramatic a few psi makes.... It would be nice to pull 20 on this stock longblock with a spacer and keep saving for the main even ;-)


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

CorradoFuhrer said:


> What are ideal AFR's for turbo VR's on static 10:1. I'm torn on my bullet proof short block whether to keep it 9:1 or pop in a spacer and sink it down to 8:1?


I once been told by the tuner that if you plan to do a lot of WOT - keep compression low. If mainly cruising - keep it higher. Low is 1 point below. 
Mine is running C2 spacer, I think 8.5:1. When I datalog CR (ignition correction), I am pulling down ignition advance an all cylinders at 15PSI on the hot day, not ideal.
I really like to go to 7.5:1 in the near future for some 20+ PSI and plenty of WOT. You can do the same on 9:1 but with plenty of ignition correction.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

There are old porsche turbo that run 6.5:1... unless you get custom pistons made you'll run out of timing chain with a huge spacer. That much compression drop will have recognizable trade-offs against higher compression MBT optimized tunes at the same manifold pressures with all else being equal.... ie they will eat your lunch. There is a point where the benefit of additional ignition advance is less than increased compression. You might be able to get a spacer and link from HPA as they ran silly low compression on their early 12v kits with a super thick spacer.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I would rather have high comp and proper quench clearances then drop comp and no quench effect. Surprised no talk about that.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

There was a thread on here that I learned a bunch about the importance of the squish area. I do remember reading that it is all in the piston shape on a VR6, so adding a spacer effectively ruins the combustion chamber design. That is what I read anyway.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I would rather have high comp and proper quench clearances then drop comp and no quench effect.


 Agreed :thumbup:


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

and here we have it folks, back to square 1. 




















one mixed bearing cap and my rebuild is fubar'd. need a new crank now. If my luck with this car were currency, my face would be on the one dollar bill.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

You have not been doing too wel recently at all. Sorry to hear man.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> You have not been doing too wel recently at all. Sorry to hear man.


 quite right. 


does anyone have a crankshaft?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

obdONE said:


> quite right.
> 
> 
> does anyone have a crankshaft?


 Yes, no idea how much it would be to ship.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

ok so 9:1 is cool then no spacer... guess ill run that expensive MK3 MLS HG. Then in the future I can run an all copper one thats like 250. I just thought if I bought a used spacer I could lower my current motor to 9:1 being completely stock inside and keep saving my duckets for the accessories to make that all out race block an all out necessity rather than a nice thing to have.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you have 9:1 pistons just use the mk4 mls. 

If I lost my mind and built a turbo car on the inexpensive it would be stock bottom, mls hg, arp's for the bottom and thats it. It would run great because I would use quality components that would be complimentary instead of piecing together a bunch of bobo parts with hopes and dreams.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Yes, no idea how much it would be to ship.


 if you use USPS Media Mail, it should be next to nothing. See if you can get a time and cost estimate for shipping to 77092 :thumbup:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> If you have 9:1 pistons just use the mk4 mls.
> 
> If I lost my mind and built a turbo car on the inexpensive it would be stock bottom, mls hg, arp's for the bottom and thats it. It would run great because I would use quality components that would be complimentary instead of piecing together a bunch of bobo parts with hopes and dreams.


 So I wanna run 9:5:1 on 20 psi and 30 psi on race gas?


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)




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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

simple_man said:


> Looks like if you can cool your VR6, you can get A LOT out of it without going billet. LUGTRONICS guys posted data running OEM engine with decompression plate at 33PSI. Stock pistons, stock rods, couple of years of 1/4 mile abuse :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


 
This. Still hammering on the Corrado daily @ 550+whp. Stock motor shows no signs of death. :thumbup: 

Jaime, if the lead on a crank doesnt work out, I have a spare sitting on my shelf. Just had it @ the machine shop to check specs.


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

That under car rad setup is brutal, Air can't even flow through it properly, just around it. All you need is a good fan setup with the stock radiator in its normal place. Get 2 decent pullers. Not trying to shoot ya down er anything, but there is nothing beneficial in that setup. What are you gonna do at idle if you get rid of the fans?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

CorradoFuhrer said:


> So I wanna run 9:5:1 on 20 psi and 30 psi on race gas?


 Stop focusing on psi and focus on power goals.


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Stop focusing on psi and focus on power goals.


 :thumbup: 

My favorite is to focus on 'area' under the TQ curve :wave: 
Sequential turbo charging come in mind when thinking about it.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

need_a_VR6 said:


> bunch of bobo parts with hopes and dreams.


 HEY! I resemble that remark.  BTW, buy my stuff.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

dasbeast3.0 said:


> Jaime, if the lead on a crank doesnt work out, I have a spare sitting on my shelf. Just had it @ the machine shop to check specs.


 Thanks Mike! My buddy here in town has been building a 12v for his mk1 rabbit but has no plans on finishing it anytime soon, if at all. He's pulling the crank out of it for me today. What a guy! People like him make me proud of our community.


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

No prob. Glad to see motor troubles aren't getting ya down, just rebuild and get right back at it. At least the vr is easy enough to work on. Good luck bro


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

thanks man. This is my last chance, so I hope nothing goes wrong this time. My 2nd son is due at the end of October, so I have no more time left. If something does go wrong, it'll either sit for 8 or 9 months, or get parted out. So everyone keep their fingers crossed for me!


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

obdONE said:


> thanks man. This is my last chance, so I hope nothing goes wrong this time. My 2nd son is due at the end of October, so I have no more time left. If something does go wrong, it'll either sit for 8 or 9 months, or get parted out. So everyone keep their fingers crossed for me!


 Its looking like it will be very pricey to ship, so if you can find one more local I think that would be best.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Friend said he just lost two middle pistons on his vr. We just put the spacer in this year, and had a friend take it for a ride at 20 psi. One pull was all it took for smoke to coming billowing out. 

Specs are 

Basic kinetics kit 
9:1 spacer 
Arp rod bolts. 
C2 440 

I think it heatsoaked or something. Engine ran strong under boost for at least 25k, so who knows. The kit itself has many, many miles. Gotta love the old 50 trim, this one has at least 50k miles, 4 motors and 3 cars, a couple popped headgaskets and still no shaft play. 

If anyone remembers the old green mk3 coupe from 5-6 years ago that when this kit started


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## Bluegrape2 (Mar 3, 2012)

The kinetic kit is a solid kit. I put 30K on my Stage III w/ rotomaster t3/t4 .83AR.... 

It made 350+WHP with good exhaust and 17+PSI, Kit was dead reliable. Upgraded C2 SW and I had the head cleaned up when I put the 8.5 spacer in and sans heater core hose and turbo oil dran pipe (replaced with stainless) I NEVER had one motor related problem. 

Keep up with maint and never let them get hot and they *should *last very long. 

Mine had 148K on it with over 30K boosted when I sold it , all stock short block. Amsoil Turbo blend every 3K and fresh coolant every 15K. I beat that car all over town , went so fast the pass window almost sucked out and beat just about every car I raced.......It is missed. 

All in the upkeep kiddies....I just find it crazy that some blow up all the time and others have a good experience like me. My jawn was just as reliable as my evo 9....as in very.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Close to 8yrs on my daily Vrt. Once built properly with a good foundation they are very reliable (solid motor and well maintained car).


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Its looking like it will be very pricey to ship, so if you can find one more local I think that would be best.


 Thanks man, I got one. 


I took the new crank and 7 rods to the machine shop. Crank is good to go, rods are being checked and center bored if needed. Ordered new main and rod bearings, rings, and head gasket. Should be put back together this weekend.


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Ive understood that the Lugtronic VR6 setup is very good. If I was getting a new software/ECU setup now, I would been looking into Lugtronic standalone for sure. 
But I see alot off people saying that C2 and newer UM software are crap. I hope they know what they are talking about. 
My C2 63# Pro-Maf setup have been on the car since 2009. Its my daily driver when its not snow on the road. :snowcool: Im talking 10.000+ kilometers every summer. That is around 6200+ miles each summer. 
It has been used from 15-30 psi all day long. No issues, and I dont see any reasion why I should complain about my C2 Pro-Maf software. Its spot on, and I can adjust my afr as I want with a adj fpr. 
My 35R 1.06 is maxed out around 30 psi, the Pro-Maf setup is not. 

Btw: 9:1 Wiseco w/ thin Schimmel spacer. 8.4:1 H-rods and stock head. No issues so far. And no smoke from the exhaust.


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## joshisapunk (Oct 1, 2004)

I'm using C2 pro maf as well. Stock 163k mile block and head with an 8.5:1 head spacer, stock head bolts even. Turbo'd for 5 years and 25k miles with ZERO issues. Less blow by than any NA engine i've owned and almost unnoticeable oil consumption. I run a manual boost controller that has been set over 15psi since day one. Currently at 23psi (Garret T67) on pump gas, no meth. 

Long story short, having a hard time understanding why there are so many guys with dead pistons in here, but i added an oil cooler and went with a 700hp intercooler because of this thread.


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> Ive understood that the Lugtronic VR6 setup is very good. If I was getting a new software/ECU setup now, I would been looking into Lugtronic standalone for sure.
> But I see alot off people saying that C2 and newer UM software are crap. I hope they know what they are talking about.
> My C2 63# Pro-Maf setup have been on the car since 2009. Its my daily driver when its not snow on the road. :snowcool: Im talking 10.000+ kilometers every summer. That is around 6200+ miles each summer.
> It has been used from 15-30 psi all day long. No issues, and I dont see any reasion why I should complain about my C2 Pro-Maf software. Its spot on, and I can adjust my afr as I want with a adj fpr.
> ...


 
I've tried several other chip tunes and 63# c2/promaf blows them all out of the water. Very smooth and responds well to fuel pressure adjustments, something the 42# setup lacked.


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## raddo (Dec 22, 1999)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> Ive understood that the Lugtronic VR6 setup is very good. If I was getting a new software/ECU setup now, I would been looking into Lugtronic standalone for sure.
> But I see alot off people saying that C2 and newer UM software are crap. I hope they know what they are talking about.
> My C2 63# Pro-Maf setup have been on the car since 2009. Its my daily driver when its not snow on the road. :snowcool: Im talking 10.000+ kilometers every summer. That is around 6200+ miles each summer.
> It has been used from 15-30 psi all day long. No issues, and I dont see any reasion why I should complain about my C2 Pro-Maf software. Its spot on, and I can adjust my afr as I want with a adj fpr.
> ...


 I have the same setup minus the pistons(mine are 8.5:1) an my afr is spot on. I'm afraid to push any more boost till I get some forged rods up in there.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

dasbeast3.0 said:


> That under car rad setup is brutal, Air can't even flow through it properly, just around it. All you need is a good fan setup with the stock radiator in its normal place. Get 2 decent pullers. Not trying to shoot ya down er anything, but there is nothing beneficial in that setup. What are you gonna do at idle if you get rid of the fans?


believe it or not, more heat comes off it than you think.
it doesn't get hot sitting still OR heatsoak now, no fans...
i've broken ringlands before, i had big fans, i've seen what people were doing before they break them here & i've seen what doesn't work...
think of it as a heat sink or why anything would need more than one radiator location.
i appreciate your candor but i'm infinitely more happy w my car's 100% duty cycle.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i guess occurring has 2 r's ??


The *Knock Module *is another animal altogether, and expands the MS3/MS3X's knock sensing capability dramatically. This isn't just an analog knock input with no conditioning, the MS3 (with this Knock Module expansion) allows for knock windowing looking for knock just during the few degrees of crank rotation where it will happen on each cylinder, and this allows the MS3 to determine which cylinder knock occured on as well! Furthermore the firmware and tuning software allow for fine tuning of the 'noise floor' of your engine so that you can prevent false positives from the knock sensor by 'teaching' the ECU what your engine normally sounds like when knock isn't occuring, and it will then be able to hear the difference and tell you when knock is occuring. You can then configure the ECU to respond by making adjustments to your tune, reducing ignition advance until knock goes away, etc.

edit: quoted from the DIY autotune newsletter Sept


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

A little update for those who were curious about how the intercooler I went with is working. Here it is- http://www.maperformance.com/treads...-tr1045-universal-intercooler-tre-tr10x5.html

The setup is a PTE 58/62, 2.5 inch IC pipes, MK4 IAT and the 3.5 inch Treadstone core. I am seeing ~90F at the top of third @ 19ish psi. Working pretty good I guess.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

Nice, do you have the old IAT vs ambient temps to compare before the upgrade ?


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## builtvw (Sep 20, 2009)

this is a useful thread


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

EL DRIFTO said:


> Nice, do you have the old IAT vs ambient temps to compare before the upgrade ?


Not anything I trust, my stock IATA was giving erroneous readings. I switched to the MK4 one on the recommendation of Mr Black. Sadly I have no data from the old ic, sure it was not good. 


Sent from my pager using Tapatalk...


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

raddo said:


> I have the same setup minus the pistons(mine are 8.5:1) an my afr is spot on. I'm afraid to push any more boost till I get some forged rods up in there.



Stock rods are good to 700++ WHP with ARP bolts. Only way i ever broke one was with a hydrolock. But what rod will survive that.


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> Stock rods are good to 700++ WHP with ARP bolts. Only way i ever broke one was with a hydrolock. But what rod will survive that.


Trying to understand the comment you made.

What is ARP bolts got to do with rods strength in relation to TQ produced? Or the way the power was made is higher in RPM range? 
I can see ARP bolts been resistant to stretch, therefore helping to keep the cap on the rod during exhaust stroke at HIGH RPM. Cannot see it helping any other way.


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

get a call from new owner of my car(mk4 kinetic stage 3/lsd /3" exhaust ect). heard clank clank...... bang clank ect. 


pool of gear oil under car. push to a parking lot 


axle was off the tranny 
axle bolts all backed out(?) 
the metal cap was off the cv joint end and grease everywhere, and mangled/twisted near bolt holes. 
took out axle couldn't see much. 
put it in gear/let out clutch to listen for turrible sounds, it made none. but some more gear oil came out of here. 














so the axle came lose and cut the gear box? 


oh and this was full boost 3rd gear around a nice sweeping corner


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

That's exactly what happened, fixed a case last year for the exact same reason. Friends axle came loose and punched a hole in the exact same spot.


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

fix = new case i assume?


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Separate it and weld it.


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

obdONE said:


> and here we have it folks, back to square 1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 aren't all the main caps on the VR6 numbered?


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

This thread rocks :thumbup: I'm still running stock block with no issues. The block in one of my cars started smokin and have yet to tear it down. It was holding up to 30+psi just fine


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## simple_man (Jun 18, 2006)

dub_slug said:


> This thread rocks :thumbup: I'm still running stock block with no issues. The block in one of my cars started smokin and have yet to tear it down. It was holding up to 30+psi just fine


 Mind sharing specs? Is that on 2.8L motor? 
At what RPM 10PSI and 30PSI came on?


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

Full boost at ~4200rpm2.8l, 262's, 6265 t4.81, 3"tb, race gas on 440's. it wasnt until I wacked the oil pan was running low on oil unknowingly and was racing a zo6 for multiple pulls down the highway until it started smoking. Still ran just not very well lol. 

Current setup is only on 10psi as I don't wanna blow it up. Once I get more fueling, meth and my diffed Trans ill probably crank that **** up to 22-30psi. The power on the current setup is very linear so I think the rods will last a while just gotta keep it cool . 

Edit current setup: 

Full boost ~4500rpm 6765bb T4.96, 3"TB, Juan Sri, stock MkIV cams, custom setrab oil cooler kit, cx cheapo bar and plate, 440's, meth and diff coming soon. 
Here's a couple pics of the car. About to hit 75k on the clock


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## SlantSix (Apr 16, 2003)

> Soundwave_vr6
> FV-QR
> 
> get a call from new owner of my car(mk4 kinetic stage 3/lsd /3" exhaust ect). heard clank clank...... bang clank ect.
> ...


 I got same thing few years ago. Bolts lose and grind hole. 
Fix was : cleaned transmission well with brake cleaner, sanded it with 120 grid paper and glued thin piece of aluminium with lots of Permatex. Hold fine 5 years now and no leak.


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## GingerH8r (Aug 16, 2010)

^BRAVO! Lol that's funny stuff righ there :thumbup:


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## Highbeam2 (Jan 25, 2012)

Nothing new out there???


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## 2.0 Ho (Sep 27, 2006)

Oh I got something. Wastegate line came off on a setup not designed for the full boost of a gt35 turbo... Was running a 255 pump with stock regulator and a pro maf setup and stock block with new pistons. 30psi boost gauge pegged out. The result was 2 bent rods and I blew the lands off of 5 pistons and macaronied a wrist pin. Before and after basically. 

The new setup is a built 3.0l fully balanced and built block with wossner 8:1 pistons running an effective 8.8:1 ratio abouts with the block decking. Eagle rods, UM short runner, aeromotive regulator, pro maf, 630cc injectors. IE rail and an 044 pump with -6 return and feed lines. I don't think I will be blowing this one up any time soon. I have an a/f of about 12.2-8 at 15psi currently and it runs like a raped ape.


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## Highbeam2 (Jan 25, 2012)

Nothing New??


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