# Project 4-Barrel.....



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Started off as finding Mikuni BST carbs from a Suzuki 750 at a swap meet for $20.








Mounted them on a cut 16v manifold using these.....








On the stock Suzuki throttle cable, there was a threaded section at the end with a nut, which secured the cable and housing to the carbs. Its the section inside the yellow box








The bracket coming off the carbs to hold the cable assembly is kinda thick, so using a hacksaw blade I cut a small slot, and with an E-clip and a B3 Passat VR6 throttle cable its now all setup, little modification.
















I already have the fuel reg, fittings etc. Going to use the stock in tank pump for now, and I have to figure out something for a vacuum source to the knock box. 
On the 16v manifold there is a nipple between cyl 1 and 2, is that a good vacuum source for the knock box?
I have some plugs to block off the injector bungs, since mine were plastic, stripped and refused to come out......








I was thinking if that nipple isnt a good source, then once the plugs are in the injector bungs I'm going to drill them and make a vacuum manifold for the knock box.
Some more progress as the week goes on, and next weekend, weather permitting, the car will be running.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

That nipple is not a vacuum source, fell for that one once







. 
I clicked expecting to see a holley 4-barrel, but I suppose bike carbs are just as good







.
To be honest, I don't think I've actually seen a running 16v on bike carbs, here on the tex. I'd like to see more, because it's very tempting indeed. I'm sure I've just not looked hard enough, but most folks seem to switch to bike throttles instead of carbs.


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## 16v_HOR (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

Its about time you start this, now finish it already


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (Dave926)*


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (16v_HOR)*


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (Dave926)*

Please excuse the laughing things, I tried post from my phone but that didnt work out to well. Anyways heres a little update.....
I needed to block off the injector bungs, but didnt want something permanent, so I came up with an idea similar to how the cis injectors are held in place------vacuum
































They fit really snug, and dont leak air at all. I picked up all the materials at Lowe's/Home Depot for less then $10 bucks. 
Im still not sure how I'm going to run the vacuum system to the stock knock box. I plan on making a little vacuum manifold of all 4 runners and linking them to 1, so there is a good signal going to the computer. I might try to retrofit an idle switch later on to the carbs if the idle is wacky.
The carbs will be going on this weekend, and the car will be back to daily driver status right away, I cant afford to have down time.


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (Dave926)*

I used oil drain plugs from a diesel Dodge 22mmx1.5 pitch. I just ground down the flange until fit inside the hole never had a problem








P.S. Even with some backfiring through the carbs when i first set them up.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (impulse byer)*

Problem with that is someone at VW thought it would be funny to use plastic bungs instead of brass or some kind of metal.
I used a 10mm allen key socket to get them out, and boom, quarter turn they stripped right out.








Otherwise when I took the **** with me to lowe's/home depot I would have bought some bolt and sealed them with some permatex or something.
Anyone got a solution to try and remove the injector bungs.


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## ratdub (Jan 17, 2005)

*FV-QR*









hah_ 'for sewer and drain use only'_...


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ratdub)*

ahh they should work ok....







.
They are not reinforced like radiator hose, but whatever. Cant see why they wont work. I think they will work a little better than silicone hose, where they wont collapse under vacuum.
Ive read a few thread about how to remove the plastic injector shrouds, most of them pertain to using a hammer and screwdriver and I really dont like that idea. Any one have some other suggestions.....?
I think for vacuum lines, the cleanest look I can think of would be using some steel brake lines epoxied into the manifold, out of sight, tee'd into one line thats sent to the knock box.
The other thought I had were the sync ports on top of the carbs, but I'm not sure what that does to the 'vacuum curve' so to speak.

_Modified by Dave926 at 7:49 PM 3-3-2009_


_Modified by Dave926 at 7:50 PM 3-3-2009_


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (Dave926)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dave926* »_Problem with that is someone at VW thought it would be funny to use plastic bungs instead of brass or some kind of metal.
I used a 10mm allen key socket to get them out, and boom, quarter turn they stripped right out.










I see sorry to here that mine came out (brass part) But the last part the part i see in the pic's sticking out the back. It just came out with a little tap from a hammer it was not screwed in. It crumbled and was easy to scrape out. If it is plastic i would just use a torch and melt it even propane would do the job http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (impulse byer)*

not a bad idea...
Today i got some plastic nipple fittings to go into the bungs with those rubber rings. They were a bitch to put in but I made a nice vacuum manifold out of it all.
Then when I was moving the assemble around I broke the end of the throttle cable





























Im going to try an epoxy it...I have an extra cable but its from a an auto B3 vr6 passat, its more or less the same thing though.
Progress pics up tomorrow


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## VegasJetta (Jan 26, 2003)

*FV-QR*

I can't wait to see this thing parked next to my Helios at Dustoff!!


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VegasJetta)*

Adam, my car parked next to yours is gonna make yours look _real_ nice.
I picked some 20 ft of 3/8th steel line from Napa, and some connectors. 
Everything needed to do the job is on ready, tomorrow morning this is going down. Will have pics when its all done, and maybe a sound clip/ video though im not going to promise good quality here.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (Dave926)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dave926* »_
Then when I was moving the assemble around I broke the end of the throttle cable





























Im going to try an epoxy it...I have an extra cable but its from a an auto B3 vr6 passat, its more or less the same thing though.
Progress pics up tomorrow

I've got a throttle cable from a B3 VR6 Passat.
$20 shipped, and it's yours!
Otherwise, Nice build. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: Project 4-Barrel..... (Jettaboy1884)*

I had the car running last weekend, but had to many issues with the setup, it needs revisions. Fuel Pressure being too high is one of them, but since then Ive discussed with some other people who have done this and came up with a solution
If anyone want to know...you can run the stock intank fuel pump with carbs. When the car was running, the gauge stayed right at whatever psi I set it at with no fluctuation what so ever. No need to spend 90 bucks or whatever it cost to run a carter or facet pump.
Btw, you will also need to run the ABF coolant neck with mc carbs. No way you can clear the float bowls and not boil off the fuel.
Maybe this weekend or next weekend I will have another go at this, but the setup needs some revisions. I think the fuel squirting out the pilot jets from too much fuel pressure is what caused my biggest problems. 
Another thing I discovered, when you first get the car started, and its running funky and it the first time you ever played with carbs, makes you realize you dont know jack-****








I think the sound of these things is whats making me try again to make these work.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dave926* »_
Another thing I discovered, when you first get the car started, and its running funky and it the first time you ever played with carbs, makes you realize you dont know jack-****








I think the sound of these things is whats making me try again to make these work.










The two most important parts of any carb build, summed up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif.
As a former newbie to carbs who went through the same thing, I can say that I've learned more about cars in two years than I ever did in 10 years of EFI programming. You can't appreciate the new stuff without understanding the old stuff http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif.
Plus, I've also learned why it's VERY important to carry a screwdriver in the car at all times







.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

Screwdriver.....I usually got enough tools on my car to rebuild half the car, or at least enough to fudge cis in case it starts to act up and get me home.
I spoke to hyperformancevw, he suggested I run one of the outlets on my holley reg back to the tank via return line, to lower the pressure further. When I had this setup I couldnt get the pressure under 2 psi, and he said gravity fed carbs shouldnt not take more than 1/2 psi to 1 psi. 
How does anyone else feel about this, I mean using an outlet line as a return to lower the pressure further?
Im kinda glad though that cis is like a lego kit, you can take it apart and put it back together like nothing ever happened


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

Personally I'd run a low pressure/high flow fuel pump, like a Facet or carter, with the regulator set to around 3psi. The return line isn't really necessary since most good pumps will stop flowing when the fuel starts to deadhead at the needle valve. It'll still run, just won't pump any fuel. I'm currently running a 2.5-4psi facet pump without a reg, and having zero issues. Bike carbs are a different beast, but lots of carbed bikes have an electric pump as opposed to being gravity fed. You can also snag one of those for cheap, brand new, and use it. Then the whole idea of a regulator being needed goes out the window







.
Did you set the floats and check the carbs before getting it running? Are they sync'd? If it's running, then you can't be too far off







.


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dave926* »_
I spoke to hyperformancevw, he suggested I run one of the outlets on my holley reg back to the tank via return line, to lower the pressure further. When I had this setup I couldnt get the pressure under 2 psi, and he said gravity fed carbs shouldnt not take more than 1/2 psi to 1 psi. 
How does anyone else feel about this, I mean using an outlet line as a return to lower the pressure further?


I would say yes to 1/2- 1psi mine did not like having fuel pushed in but when i did a gravity fed set up they didn't leak a drop. I tried this over the winter and it didn't turn out well so i never posted. After more reading i found that some bikes use a fuel pump some are electric and some are mechanical driven by the motor.
But i did suffer a computer crash in witch i lost most of my info sorry







I would start looking there and find a set that would have a pump from the factory would be your best bet. I have a very dialed in set up now so i didn't want to work to hard on this route as i have lots more crap to do to the car.
















I feel bad posting pic's with the bay so dirty


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (impulse byer)*

B4S...you have a good point about having it running, I had to have been close or else it would not have ever started. My questions is how are the facet/carter pumps steup in the fuel system? Are they run like an inline booster pump with the intank feeding it? Or do you run just with that said pump, with the stock intank unplugged?
Impulse, you make a good point too. I might try just running carbs that are made to run some pressure, such as the R1 carbs. Trying to get carbs made to run a gravity feed fuel system run with a pump may not work out so well, or even might be too much aggravation. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of what other carbs from bikes that run a pressurized fuel system.
I was going to try again tomorrow, but I would hate to have to go back to cis if it dont work out, I think I'd be disappointed to the fact that I wouldnt try again to run carbs. It sucks when I can get everyone's else project to run when they have issues, such as vr swaps and m50 swaps into e30's, but cant get something simple such as carbs to work


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

Well if you were to find other carbs you could use all the stuff you already have to fit them







That would be glass half full.
For the pump if you were just going to try it again for fun just run the in-tank one. With out the main and with no return to see if it will give you a low enough pressure. I run a CarQuest brand pump 1-4 psi in the stock location of the factory high pressure pump with my in-tank feeding it. When i tried the bike carbs i only used the in-tank.
Good luck tomorrow I'll have one of these for you


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (impulse byer)*

When you mention the in-tank pump, I suppose you are reffering to how the CIS system has a transfer pump in the tank, which sucks the fuel up and out of the tank, and feeds it to the high-pressure pump.
If you remove the high pressure pump, it would certainly be interesting to see how much PSI that in-tank pump can push to the front of the car. All-in-all, with a pressure regulator at the engine bay, it might work out just right. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Jettaboy1884)*

I forgot to mention this but my Rocco had a white box witch the in-tank/transfer pump fed into. The return line also feeds into this box you will need to plug the return at the back or bypass the box or the in-tank pump tries to fill the feed and return line. 
I forget how the MK2 stuff is and i should know. I have removed and installed a lot of CIS this year from tank to motor bay.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (impulse byer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *impulse byer* »_I forgot to mention this but my Rocco had a white box witch the in-tank/transfer pump fed into. The return line also feeds into this box you will need to plug the return at the back or bypass the box or the in-tank pump tries to fill the feed and return line. 
I forget how the MK2 stuff is and i should know. I have removed and installed a lot of CIS this year from tank to motor bay.









I got a black box.....There is a line thats pretty easy to get to on mine, and this is the feed from the intank/transfer pump. I just disconnected it and ran the steel line to the front etc.
I think Im going to wait until I find some R1 carbs locally, as the ones on ebay are going for $150 plus








There is a local show on 4-26, and I would love to go into the show with the pedal mashed


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

Found some R1 carbs 2 hours from me for $125.....probably going to go check them out on Saturday morning.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Wh00t!








I'm keeping an eye on this...haven't tried bike carbs yet. I've got a 1.3 from a Mk1 Golf coming my way in a few months, and might need something a bit smaller than my Dells for it







.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

ya, 16v_hor decided that he is going to donate the use of his time and his 337 for the trip up there. We are going to head up there early Saturday morning, hopefully things dont get too out of hand when I bring the Guiness and Bailey's over tonight, maybe throw a little Jameson in there for good measure.








I was going to have my buddy take me in his Jeep, but that **** gets only like 20 mpg with a tailwind.








If all goes well, I might make another attempt, say next weekend.
B4S, Ive heard webers before, and they sound good, but my ears were ringing after I had mine on there and running.
Something I noticed more and more as I do research on setting up MC carbs on a car, that it seems most of the homebrew setups are running the cheapass Autozone/ Mr Gasket fpr's. Those are the cheap ones that are like 20 bucks and they are like a little dial of somesort, nothing like the holley reg that I have.
HyperformanceVW looks like he had one in his pics from the setup he had, and last year in PVW there was a caddy that ran the Bonneville Salt Flats out in Utah. He was running snowmobile carbs (gravity-fed type) and there was that Mr gasket dial type fpr.


_Modified by Dave926 at 8:56 AM 3-20-2009_


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

I got my R1 carbs today, they dwarf the other Mikuini's I had. 
I think I'm going to get a custom manifold made, but just to be curious does it have to be made from aluminum? The carbs came with the intake boots, and after checking them out, I would like to use them if possible.
I know that I could get a manifold made from steel much cheaper than aluminum, and maybe a little paint to make it look nice.


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

aluminum makes for better heat displacement/soaking 
my thoughts you might have some issues with fuel atomization with carbs and a steel manifold from the temps getting to hot








what are you planing to do with the car daily driver?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Svedka)*

I will daily drive it, year round if I have to. If heat becomes an issue, then I will get a phenolic spacer or some **** like that.
Anyone know the exact length of the Mk2 16v throttle cable, and the one for a B3 vr6 passat?
I was screwing around with trying to setup a throttle cable, and its not nearly as easy as the first set of carbs that I have.








This cable here looks promising. I decided to measure my cable, and its about 30". This one here is a bit longer, as the stock 16v is a bit short. This is the website for the cable http://images.google.com/imgre...a%3DN








_Modified by Dave926 at 3:31 PM 3-22-2009_

_Modified by Dave926 at 3:32 PM 3-22-2009_

_Modified by Dave926 at 3:33 PM 3-22-2009_


_Modified by Dave926 at 3:34 PM 3-22-2009_


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

Had some thoughts over the last few days, and new developments. 
Ive yet again be able to make the b3 vr6 cable work, though I had to cut the end off, spin the part where the clip that hold it in place, flip the cable around etc. all because the local bike shop wont sell me what I need to make the damn thing the right way.
The next thing that I thought about was the steel manifold idea. There really isnt a reason it CAN'T work. Here is some food for thought....how many American cars with carbs had cast iron manifolds? Those big V8's had their manifolds sitting in between 2 cylinder banks, with hot oil splashing underneath them. Ive got a 4 cylinder thats branching off the side of the head...much less heat to contend with.








Anyone have an objection to that?


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

What ever gets it done







also sent PM


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (impulse byer)*

all the goods my fabrication guy needs is dropped off at his shop. He is gonna use a 1/2 flange and we discussed on what I need for a setup.
Hopefully it should be all set by the end of next week


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## 16v_HOR (Jul 21, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

get on it yates........i have 2 sensors left and i'm slapping a timing belt on and firing the beast up.....If I actually get my car running before those carbs are on your car you're never gonna hear the end of it


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (16v_HOR)*

The ****in fabrication guy still hasnt started this project of making the damn manifold yet and its been 3 weeks WTF!!!!!






















Someone on here Im'd me a awhile ago about selling me their steel manifold, who was it?
Im me again, we need to work something out here.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

Tried using the Mikuni's again this weekend for ****s and giggles, and while I had to go back to cis AGAIN







, much was learned.
Using a T connector before the regulator did **** for me. Still couldnt get the pressure under 2 psi, so instead I used a ball valve for plumbing instead. I got the pressure to about 1 psi but it was still loading up with fuel, making the car run kinda ****ty
The car held a consistent 2k rpm idle, and I think if i used an idle switch it would have brought it down. Also, If I had more time I think it would have worked, but I used quarters this time to block off the injector holes and it worked for a while until I had a nasty backfire then one shot out like a shotgun
Moral of the story is : Dont try to use MC carbs that arent designed for fuel pressure on a carb setup. Its not worth the aggravation and head banging Ive gone through, and it sucks more when its your daily driver as well. 
The only carbs I suggest to use are R1 carbs. They are made to handle 3 psi of pressure and are a much better option IMHO.
For those of you looking for a good vacuum source if using a cut manifold, use the nipple (







) between cylinders 1&2 once you have taken out all the injector bungs. There is a rail I guess you can call it that runs down the length of all the ports/cylinders to use for vacuum.
That being said I might try them again one last time. My current setup is a Holley reg 1-4 psi with one inlet and 2 outlets. I might split one of the outlets into 2 to feed the carbs, and send the other outlet to the return line on my car along with the ball valve on the pressure side (feed).
Edit: There is a question that I have that hopefully someone can answer. 
I used the stock cis-e knockbox as mentioned before, but the one thing I did notice and didnt like at all was how long the car took to settle into a 2k rpm idle. Like I would rev the **** out of it, and then it would take forever to idle down from 3.5k to 2k rpm. What would cause this, too much fuel or the fact that I had no idle switch on the carbs?
I wish this wasnt my daily, as i would still have the carbs on the car trying to tinker with it.


_Modified by Dave926 at 3:27 PM 4-21-2009_


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## Awesome Austin (Dec 12, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Dave926)*

im serously thinking about doing this...theres no electronics going to them right? im thinking about just stripping my car of all the obd2 stuff and going old school.... carbs and dizzy.


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