# Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

At our local VW's on the Green car show yesterday I saw a booth 
with an interesting product.
First item listed here
http://www.ingallseng.com/new_products.htm 
Some photos from their flyer.
















You just unbolt the ball joint from the LCA, bolt this to the LCA
and the ball joint on top of it, and now you've got +/- 1.4 degrees of 
adjustable camber. Obviously would need to have it realligned
immediately afterwards because it'll go toe out when adding
negative camber. 
ian


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (Daemon42)*

Looks very cool. I wonder if the bolts will reliably hold the huge side loads without the brackets slipping. If the ball joint sits higher than normal, I think this would raise the front by the same amount which is ok for some people but not all. I don't know if the joint does sit higher though. Lastly, I wonder how much this will cost.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (groftja)*

No reason to expect the bolts to slip. The TT and R32 have slotted
LCAs and they don't slip. 
Also won't change the ride height of the car at all. It lowers
the end of the LCA a bit, but the actual suspension geometry
stays the same (draw a line between inner LCA pivot points
and the ball on the ball joint, and it's exactly the same. 
ian


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (groftja)*

cool
my concern would be durability.
why not just manufacture replacement LCA's that are longer








i mean if your gonna go through the trouble......


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (Daemon42)*

Cool, I did not know the slotted design is already in use.
About the ride height, I figured that if the end of the LCA is lower, that also will lower the wheel height relative to the chassis. I may be wrong but it's not important anyway since the change is so small.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (groftja)*

The ride height is controlled by the distance from the top of
the strut to the hub, nothing else. 

As for "why bother" when they could just manufacture a new LCA?
Cost. LCAs are very expensive to manufacture and very application
specific. These adjustable end links cost $100-130 each. These folks 
also make similar products for a HUGE number of different cars. 
ian


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (Daemon42)*

bump anyone have this yet? i'm going to email the company for cost and availabiltiy for the MKIV golf.


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## GTIMOLA (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (Daemon42)*

me likey


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

Looks to good to be true! 
Now hurry up and get them for sale. 
mmmmmmmm.........at least -3.5


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## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

hum this would be sweet combined with upper camber plates like gc's. i would like to .know pricing.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (chewy'sjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chewy’sjetta* »_hum this would be sweet combined with upper camber plates like gc's. i would like to .know pricing.

^^Few posts up
$100-130


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Their pricesheet says something like $95 wholesale and $130 list, so expect 
to find dealers selling them somewhere in between. 
ian


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

This is great stuff! On the virtual model comes out that the 1.4 degree camber gain is achieved with only 16.5 mm of extra length on the LCA. The nice part is that the new camber curve is slightly different and it maxes about 1" lower than where the OE LCA camber curve maxes. Here is a quick diagram that shows the differences:


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_This is great stuff! On the virtual model comes out that the 1.4 degree camber gain is achieved with only 16.5 mm of extra length on the LCA. The nice part is that the new camber curve is slightly different and it maxes about 1" lower than where the OE LCA camber curve maxes. Here is a quick diagram that shows the differences:


So does that mean that these offer some of the benefits of a "drop" spindle?
If I am understanding this all correctly then:
- traditional top-mount camber plates just alter static camber (camber curve shape remains the same)
- Ingalls' product (shall we call it an LCA extender) alters static camber as well as the shape of the curve
- a true drop spindle (like Audi TT or H2Sport) alters static camber, shape of curve, and fundamental suspension geometry

BTW I added this to the front page of the master camber plate thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1432095


_Modified by phatvw at 6:48 PM 5-16-2005_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*

This would alter the camber curve slightly. I would like to see a spacer between this and the LCA, which would drop the LCA some more. 
I like the product and have long thought something like this could be done easily. Any distributors named for this yet? I'd be glad to try a set!
My concern is the driveshaft length. You're adding almost an inch of space. Somewhere I had read about a driveshaft spacer - ? I've never had my driveshafts out so I don't know how that applies or if it is needed.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

this man is right,
if you make the actual LCA longer wouldnt u need longer drive shafts!


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (7thGear)*

The half shafts already run on splines at the tranny end allowing them to 
slide in and out as the wheel moves through it's arc. I don't know 
how much range ove movement there is available, but I wouldn't
be surprised if it can handle this fairly easily. Again, the TT and R32
already have slotted LCAs (with probably about half the range of
movement though).
ian


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

now we have an excuse to take a drive shaft apart


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## corrado94 (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_The half shafts already run on splines at the tranny end allowing them to 
slide in and out as the wheel moves through it's arc. I don't know 
how much range ove movement there is available, but I wouldn't
be surprised if it can handle this fairly easily. 
 Its prob less of a problem with a lowered car where the angle is better







Bob.G


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*



AutoXMan said:


> My concern is the driveshaft length. You're adding almost an inch of space.
> 
> 
> > Actually only .65" if Pyce's 16.5 mm estimate is accurate. What an awesome product! I'd been thinking of this myself, just not fast enough
> ...


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_..... I would like to see a spacer between this and the LCA, which would drop the LCA some more........

That spacer is not going to do much. The LCA's angle is not important per se, if you are not changing the pivot point's (aka ball joint's) position.


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

Just got off the phone with the manufacturer. Seems like good people. A couple of take-aways:
-They can only be sold through distributors. I got the number for Lightening Motorsports, who they recommended, 800-478-0952. I just ordered a set, they were $129 for the pair, no tax, free shipping.
-Up to 1 1/4 degrees of camber
-tested on an autocross MKIV with no driveshaft issues

I'll post up pics when the parts arrive!


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_That spacer is not going to do much. The LCA's angle is not important per se, if you are not changing the pivot point's (aka ball joint's) position.


Yes, you're right of course! I have been thinking of that wrong for months. The spacer would put the mount at the same location and on the same radius as the stock LCA.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Correct. The curve would stay close to the same though you can run greater static camber with the those adjusters. The range just can't be too great or extensions of the driveshaft will be necessary.
Steve


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

this is so safe
imagine, like somoene said, camber plates, this thing, and the shine suspension, those honda guys are gonna cower in fear !!!! buahahahaha....
all i need now is money... hmmm


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_this is so safe


It looks to me like there are a lot of areas for installer error that could end in a serious loss of control in racing conditions. 
I will be going with the H2sport solution.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

i meant safe as in cool... come on old man get with the lingo


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
So does that mean that these offer some of the benefits of a "drop" spindle?
If I am understanding this all correctly then:
- traditional top-mount camber plates just alter static camber (camber curve shape remains the same)
- Ingalls' product (shall we call it an LCA extender) alters static camber as well as the shape of the curve
- a true drop spindle (like Audi TT or H2Sport) alters static camber, shape of curve, and fundamental suspension geometry .....

Here is what the TT vs A4 spindle look like (from our McPherson Thread):








The TT spindle gives a max camber of about -1.0 degree at certain point, which is great, as the max camber comes when there is good amount of compression (you are in a curve). In the same situation, with the OE A4 spindle you are already going towards positive and anyway your camber is worse than where you started from when you were on straight line before the curve. 
The LCA extender gives you similar to the TT shape of the curve (flatter, longer crest), but it starts way "better" ( a lot more negative by default, when standing still) and then keeps the curve more or less parallel to the TT curve. So, those two mods are different. The LCA extenders act like you said, add static camber and alter the curve some. The real difference will be that the TT spindles may be better when it comes down to where the roll center is. At the same time, the LCA extenders are providing wider track, which will help with weight transfer and max cornering speed. Ideally you want to have the TT spindles and the LCA extenders.


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## corrado94 (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_
It looks to me like there are a lot of areas for installer error that could end in a serious loss of control in racing conditions. 
I will be going with the H2sport solution.
 Thats why you need to install everything your self when it comes to something this important . Thick adaptor plate is billet , the adjuster plate is stamped ( just like the factory A-arms ). Just ordered a set , ill see what they look like when i get them . For 129 shipped for the pair with hardware you cant go wrong







Bob.G


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

What a clever design.... maybe I can replace dreaming of a TT spindle set-up with this!









_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_
-They can only be sold through distributors. I got the number for Lightening Motorsports, who they recommended, 800-478-0952. I just ordered a set, they were $129 for the pair, no tax, free shipping.
-Up to 1 1/4 degrees of camber
-tested on an autocross MKIV with no driveshaft issues
I'll post up pics when the parts arrive! 


Price sounds very reasonable... looking forward to reading/seeing some more info when you get them. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I am wondering how straightforward or difficult these will be to install.


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (RichB)*

i cant wait to see this product....whats been keeping me away from camber plates is the price, as well as the adjustment range, i figgured if i was going to get plates i might as well just cut the strut cup and go all out. Again cost kept me from doing so, so i just chilled. If these things work out good, i will definitly buy them. like was said above, about the same negative camber as all the other plates and such that require no cutting, while having a better camber curve, and easy as anything to install, and cheap. Hopefully the parts are quality and will hold up to racing. If so this is a dam good product IMO.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (Banditt007)*

lets just hope durability is as top notch as they say it is, as my car will definetly hit the track.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_lets just hope durability is as top notch as they say it is, as my car will definetly hit the track.

If it isn't up to the abuse, then I agree... Your car will definitely hit the track.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Credit card is next to the computer waiting for first glowing review.









$129/pair







what a steal!


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (Daemon42)*

So....let's get this straight:
I could buy these for camber adjustments
I can buy camber plates and use them strictly for caster
I have the Audi TT LCA (good for some Neg. camber)
Purchase some Audi TT spindles (with new ball joints) (feel free to substitute H2sport spindles)
Then have lots of adjustments available for some racing. Right?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (eggroller)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eggroller* »_So....let's get this straight:
I could buy these for camber adjustments *YES *
I can buy camber plates and use them strictly for caster *YES, but use this camber also for more grip when u go to the track *
I have the Audi TT LCA (good for some Neg. camber)
Purchase some Audi TT spindles (with new ball joints) (feel free to substitute H2sport spindles) *H2 sports *
Then have lots of adjustments available for some racing. Right?















 Now add 600 lb front spring and lower the car







Bob.G


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (eggroller)*

put on some lightweight 15 X 8/9 rims with R compounds and youre good to go.


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ Now add 600 lb front spring and lower the car







Bob.G
I have the Eibach Pro System already. They have some pretty low spring rates. However, I love having a comfortable ride with quite a bit of handling since this is my daily. (some can handle a stiffer ride...I can't seem to deal with it) Now to save up for the cost of the H2Sports & camber plates (x2).


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

Will this product kick me out of STX, into $M?


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

you would have to clarify that with your event organizers
for me it would be 2 points
1 point for modification to the steering/drive assembly and 1 point for non-oem alignemtn.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

For autox events that follow SCCA rules, could potentially stay in STX if this was your only form of camber adjustment.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_Will this product kick me out of STX, into $M? 

You can't run this AND the camber plates. One or the other in ST.


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## Jouko Haapanen (Apr 30, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Having BTDT with longer control arms, one should be wary of fender clearance if you are running low and wheels/tires of other than stock offset and width. Rubbing can become an issue, trust me...








Upper strut mounts move the top of the tire *inboard* when adjusting for more negative camber, longer control arms move the top of the tire *outboard* with the longer control arm. Just a heads up for those running wider wheels/tires, modified offset or generally low.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_
You can't run this AND the camber plates. One or the other in ST.

Are the SPC strut mounts "technically" plates?


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Yes they are considered plates. Technically, you can't have two forms of aftermarket adjustment in ST.


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## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

and is gc done with the coil over sleeves yet. i should be ready to order end of june.


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (chewy'sjetta)*

Still finishing up a few things on the sleeves...


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (eggroller)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eggroller* »_
I have the Audi TT LCA (good for some Neg. camber)

Then have lots of adjustments available for some racing. Right?
















these won't fit the tt LCA's


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_Are the SPC strut mounts "technically" plates?


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Yes they are considered plates. Technically, you can't have two forms of aftermarket adjustment in ST.

And I may not be in ST much longer...


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## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

so a yea looks pretty cool. hum.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

Let's keep this on the front page.









_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_
I'll post up pics when the parts arrive! 


Fingers crossed for pics to come soon.......
Autocrossed again today and ..............I really could use more camber.







SPC plates and the ball joints yanked out are yielding only -2.0. Another -1.25 would be welcomed.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_Let's keep this on the front page.








Fingers crossed for pics to come soon.......
Autocrossed again today and ..............I really could use more camber.







SPC plates and the ball joints yanked out are yielding only -2.0. Another -1.25 would be welcomed.

Haha, the extra camber really does make a HUGE diff, I'm on the GC setup and I haven't yanked the spindles yet, but I know there is some room to move em and I've still managed just over 2 degrees per side, and wow, the results were astounding at today's autox. I'll have an autox review of em up soon.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_
Haha, the extra camber really does make a HUGE diff, I'm on the GC setup and I haven't yanked the spindles yet, but I know there is some room to move em and I've still managed just over 2 degrees per side, and wow, the results were astounding at today's autox. I'll have an autox review of em up soon.

Are you implying you have the lca extenders? Or, just wishful thinking be me?


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Haha, sorry, wishful thinking on your part, my just over 2 degrees of camber is just from the GC camber plates up top alone. I'll be going a different route to get more camber outta the car







.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

Anybody recieve a set yet?


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

UPS man just delivered mine a few minutes ago. Initial impression: beefy! Pics later.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_ Initial impression: beefy! Pics later.

Ya, that was my initial impressions as well when I held one in
my hand at their booth at the show. If the construction had felt half 
assed I never would have mentioned them here. 
ian


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_UPS man just delivered mine a few minutes ago. Initial impression: beefy! Pics later.


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Install and first impressions by the end of the long weekend?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_UPS man just delivered mine a few minutes ago. Initial impression: beefy! Pics later.

 I missed my delivery







i was at limerock for the day , sure could have used them ,but they will be here tommorow , install next week







Bob.G


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## cravnpup (Dec 11, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

let us know how they work out for you Bob.. be sure and post your final camber numbers... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif you get those spindles yet??


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

Update: LCA extenders installed, pretty straightforward. Surprised how little they actually move the ball joint out, maybe a 1/2" at the most. Considering how long the slot is, seems like there would be more adjustment. One thing not obvious until the install -- because of the thickness of the plates, it actually moves the LCA down another 1/2". Gonna be interesting to see what this does to the camber curves.
I snapped some pics, try to post them sometime soon.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

Center of the slot is OEM position, so you only get half the slot to push
out to negative camber. 
And yes, we talked earlier about the fact that it pushes the end of the LCA 
down a little. That has zero effect on the camber curve because the ball joint itself is in exactly the same place. 
ian


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_That has zero effect on the camber curve because the ball joint itself is in exactly the same place. 
ian

. . . Ah yes, no matter how many times I remember that, I still seem to forget it. Here is what one of the LCA extenders looks like up close:








The part on the left is forged steel, very beefy. It attaches to the top of the LCA like this:








The ball joint attaches to the sliding bracket like this:








The holes in the bracket are for Golf/Jetta ball joints, not TT ball joints as shown. I already had these, and they were new, so I used 'em. Here is what the whole deal looks like attached to the LCA:








Problem with using the TT ball joints is they are thicker on the bottom. The only position the bracket can be in with these ball joints is all the way out. Honestly though, these are supposed to yield up to 1 1/4 degrees, so I want them all the way out. If you were using them in conjunction with camber plates up top, I would recommend the golf/jetta ball joints so you get the full range of motion. 
*My thoughts on this product: *
1) No worries about strength, this sucker is beefy
2) Even though it is adjustible, half of the adjustment range is in the +camber direction. The remaining adjustment is about 1/2", seems like with a little more effort it could have been given a wider range of useful adjustment.

3) Good solution for $129, overall I'm pleased. 
4) I wish it didn't weigh 3 lbs., but I don't see any way around it.
5) Nice to have one more choice in the quest for camber. 

Car won't be on the road for a few more weeks yet, so someone else will have to give you their driving impression. 


_Modified by RabbitsKin at 3:33 PM 5-27-2005_


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

do they offer a version for TT/R32 control arms?


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (TXBDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TXBDan* »_do they offer a version for TT/R32 control arms?

I don't think so, but you could probably machine the solid forged
part down a little. Make the cutout a little deeper.
ian


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_
I don't think so, but you could probably machine the solid forged
part down a little. Make the cutout a little deeper.
ian

Judging from the pics; it would appear that another 1/4" could be machined out. I think I'll be modding them when I make my purchase. Nothin' the sawzall can't do.......


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (cravnpup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cravnpup* »_let us know how they work out for you Bob.. be sure and post your final camber numbers... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif QUOTE] They just showed up







, but i wont have time for install untill end of next week , ill get a before and after install change and see how the toe and castor are effected too


cravnpup said:


> you get those spindles yet??






cravnpup said:


> Funny thing you ask
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

I have a toe question. I will obviously have an alingment after installing these. For daily driving, I would set the extenders at minimum -camber. Therefore, I would have the alingment at that setting. At autocross they would set for the max. -camber; which should result around -3.0 for me. (maybe more if I slot them further)







As you all know, this would result in toe out. Good for cornering performance - bad for tirewear.
Now, afterwards when I return to min. -camber; will the toe return to the alingment specs? Theory says yes, but will I accurately be able to set the extenders back to the exact original position. Sorry for rambling.......


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

I would think you could put a scratch mark next to one of the bolt heads and get it back exactly where it started. But how are you going to race with all that toe-out? Since the LCA extenders are a lot closer to the tie rods than the camber plates, it might make more sense to adjust the camber plates at the track and leave the LCA extenders alone. In other words, it seems like moving the top of the strut would affect toe less than moving the bottom of othe strut.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

It would be nice to set the LCA extenders out and just play with the upper plates between track and autocross. 
The # of turns per degree of toe should be exactly the same for everyone. If you knew this, all you'd need to know is the toe change from full negeative to full positive camber and you would be all set. Get an alignment once a year as a baseline and you're good to go. Anyone know this turns per degree? Ian?


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

Anybody have driving impressions yet?
Alingment results?


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## 1.8T_CR (Oct 24, 2003)

ttt


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_Anybody have driving impressions yet?
Alingment results?

Will I have to be the guniea pig?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_
Will I have to be the guniea pig?








 Nope , but for the 129 bucks shipped you should have ordered a set by now







I have a set here , just waiting on a nice set of drop spindles that should be here any day. Probably wont install things untill after the 10th , when i get back from a trip , i ll let you know how things turn out , but i can tell you ANYTHING that adds camber is gonna make it turn better







Bob.G


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Damn, something else for me to buy. I was planning to order the GC plates in a couple weeks too


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (16vracer)*

Well mine have been installed for a week, still waiting for the rear hubs to arrive before I can put her back together . . .


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

back to the front


----------



## 1.8T_CR (Oct 24, 2003)

Alingment results?


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (1.8T_CR)*

Anyone who isn't rebuilding their whole front end, going to try this thing?
I would, but my R32 doesn't really need it (I already wear the inside
edge of my front tires out faster than the outside). 
ian


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_Anyone who isn't rebuilding their whole front end, going to try this thing?
ian

I plan purchasing these, pending they do not recieve poor reviews. So far, all I here is, "good, solid construction, their heavy." I am hoping to see how much -camber can be achieved (added). I don't want to drop $130 for less than a -1 addition.







I know the claim is 1.25, btw.


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

So everyone is waiting on everyone else to be first.
The problem is, the folks we know who are installing them, are doing so in
combination with a bunch of other stuff, so we'll learn very little
from their reviews other than "my wheels didn't fall off because of them."
ian


----------



## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_So everyone is waiting on everyone else to be first.
The problem is, the folks we know who are installing them, are doing so in
combination with a bunch of other stuff, so we'll learn very little
from their reviews other than "my wheels didn't fall off because of them."
ian

Thats my only concern. i know what -1.4 degrees is going to do.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (chewy'sjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chewy’sjetta* »_
i know what -1.4 degrees is going to do. 
 Right there ,thats a win win and if you combined these with the camber plates your all set . Get as much camber as the LCA extenders will allow and have the GC set a zero and then set the toe so its within spec , even when you move the GC full camber when going to the track . The camber plate prob wont change the toe much , but these LCA extender im sure will . Lots to start doing next week when i get back from S.C : o yeah almost forgot those drop spindles too . Should have a killer handling car when im all done , im sure ill need more rear bar , but ill save that for my last change if needed







Bob.G


_Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:52 PM 6-6-2005_


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ Right there ,thats a win win and if you combined these with the camber plates your all set . Get as much camber as the LCA extenders will allow and have the GC set a zero and then set the toe so its within spec , even when you move the GC full camber when going to the track . The camber plate prob wont change the toe much , but these LCA extender im sure will . 
_Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:52 PM 6-6-2005_

That's my plan too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_...even when you move the GC full camber when going to the track . The camber plate prob wont change the toe much , but these LCA extender im sure will ._Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:52 PM 6-6-2005_

When I went from 0 camber to full negative camber on my gc kit, I saw a 1/2in change in toe from 0 toe to 1/2in toe in, when running max camber.


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_









what's so funny


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_When I went from 0 camber to full negative camber on my gc kit, I saw a 1/2in change in toe from 0 toe to 1/2in toe in, when running max camber.

Not to drag my other thread here, _please_ - but can I ask how accurate do you think that 1/2" measurement is? I know my toe plates easily flex 1/16th, but I think I have seen similar numbers. It also depends on the ride height, I think. Thanks!
And sorry for the laughing. I just thought I saw some irony. It's gone now, so nevermind.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

back from the third page


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_Anyone who isn't rebuilding their whole front end, going to try this thing?


?????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

ok, so with these and the GC plates...how much total negative camber can you get?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (16vracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16vracer* »_ok, so with these and the GC plates...how much total negative camber can you get?

Well the GC plates give around -1.8° and the Ingalls give another -1.2° so around -3.0° total on top of your oem setting?


----------



## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Well the GC plates give around -1.8° and the Ingalls give another -1.2° so around -3.0° total on top of your oem setting?

Awesome


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (16vracer)*

A question for those that have this product: Does it appear possible to modify these (increasing the slot length) to gain more than -1.2? This was brought up a few pages back, with no definitive answer. Could the halfshafts already be at their safe length limit with these extenders mounted? Either way, $130 for ~-1.2 is a good deal. (assuming there is a no durability or safety risks)


----------



## corrado94 (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_ Could the halfshafts already be at their safe length limit with these extenders mounted? Either way, $130 for ~-1.2 is a good deal. (assuming there is a no durability or safety risks)








Im sure ANYTHING can be done, but why chance when it comes to safety . Just add the GC camber plates for a total of 3 degree,s and call it a day







Bob.G


----------



## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: (corrado94)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corrado94* »_Im sure ANYTHING can be done, but why chance when it comes to safety . Just add the GC camber plates for a total of 3 degree,s and call it a day







Bob.G

I think you're probably better off with both. Camber plates shorten the half shafts, and these lower adjusters would lengthen it. I think the lower adjusters probably change the length more than the upper plates...? Still plates would help in this regard.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (corrado94)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corrado94* »_Im sure ANYTHING can be done, but why chance when it comes to safety . Just add the GC camber plates for a total of 3 degree,s and call it a day







Bob.G

I already have the SPC strut mounts (not squeaky http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ). I guess, I'm cheap. Oh, SPC's product was available before the GC.







They are yielding about -1.25 + plus the adjustment at the balljoint. My latest alingment shows -2. 
I would not risk safety for more -camber.







It just appears that more material could be removed safely. Maybe pick up another -.5. Probably just wishful thinking.


























_Modified by redwe-in-wi at 5:33 PM 6-14-2005_


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

ordered a set today
woohoo!


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

My rear hubs got here today! Woohoo!
Now maybe I can get this car on the ground. Any advice for getting the toe *fairly* close for the drive over to the alignment shop?


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_ Any advice for getting the toe *fairly* close for the drive over to the alignment shop?


Use your bald winter tires, like me.


----------



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

use something long and straight like some pipe or something and put it against the front and rear wheels on a side. you can get 0 toe by eyeballing this good enough for a trip or two


----------



## Maddave10 (Feb 19, 2002)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (Daemon42)*

Well I just got my konis installed, and the tech that performed the alignment told me I need camber plates, as the front wheels are out of spec, however he told me that my toe is perfect and its not too much of a big deal. Quite frankly I don't know too much about proper alignment other than it contributes to even tire wear, but I do know that playing with the settings can result in a more aggresive handling car (improper grammar?)...someone help me out with this?


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (Maddave10)*

I mounted the lca extenders Monday.







I have the SPC plates, eibach prokit springs, koni yellows, and brand new lca bushings. Here are the results.
I set the camber even with no driver in the car. The driver side picked up some extra when I entered the car to set the toe. We then set the toe to zero (close enough).
street alingment
















Out of curiousity, I set the plates to max. -camber to see the resulting toe-in. I was suprised how little toe-in resulted.







I guess, I would be able to get away driving with the max camber and see minimal wear from the toe.
autox alingment
















I have not had a chance to push the car yet. Maybe this weekend; I'm making the curvy drive to Road America for the SCCA June Sprints. More results later..........











_Modified by redwe-in-wi at 9:46 PM 6-22-2005_


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

Am I the only person with these installed?


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Only one with an alignment







. Now waiting on conical seat bolts for the new wheels *sigh*.
Driving impressions from the weekend?


----------



## 1.8T_CR (Oct 24, 2003)

I'm waiting the package, I'll post my result later


_Modified by 1.8T_CR at 11:01 AM 6-29-2005_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

How are these things working out and holding up?? for the people that have them installed of course .Let here some feedback .Bob.G


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_How are these things working out and holding up?? for the people that have them installed of course .Let here some feedback .Bob.G

Yielded -2.6* with SPC plates








Everything seems very solid. I had a few bolts back out on me causing some low speed clunk. I was stupid and did not use loctite originally.







I have gone back and applied loctite to all bolts since then. The install is very easy. All the hardware is the same size. The instructions could not be simpler. The recommended torque seemed kinda low though.








Unfortunately, I have not competed with these yet. The Brewers home schedule hurt us. (too many weekend series)


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

any more testimonies?
Anybody interested in using these instead of tt lca's? Seems like a lot of are guys are getting TT lca's lately.







I only paid $130 shipped. I believe on lca costs at least that much. The extenders allow for greater range of camber (+ and -). The combo of SPC plates and these; I can get -2.6*. SPC claimed -1.25; so the extenders are adding about the same. I have also gained over a 1/2" of front track width. This makes the narrow 6.5" RXII's look much better pushed out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

I'm interested in what the extra track is doing to our Ackerman angles . . . I think I"m going to ask Pyce about it


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_I'm interested in what the extra track is doing to our Ackerman angles . . . I think I"m going to ask Pyce about it

I'm trying to picture this and I don't think extra track or camber does anything to the ackerman angle. The additional track width up front will help reduce understeer though.
I know that toe-out will produce more ackerman effect thus making turn-in sharper. Toe-in will reduce the ackerman effect thus making the car less "twitchy"



_Modified by phatvw at 11:55 AM 7-14-2005_


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Increasing the track width would require an increase in the ackerman angle to have the same ackerman effect (since the inside and outside wheel is on a different radius in a turn), but the angle itself is unchanged by just the track width increase. At least that's what I think.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_Increasing the track width would require an increase in the ackerman angle to have the same ackerman effect (since the inside and outside wheel is on a different radius in a turn), but the angle itself is unchanged by just the track width increase. At least that's what I think.









Right! The actual angle stays the same, but the effect that angle has on the car changes.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Good...we agree!


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (groftja)*

The angle may stay the same, but now the point where the two vectors intersect will move rearward. IIRC, this point should be a virtual point in the middle of the rear axle.


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

I can't find a solid answer on this but my gut says don't worry about it. I guess you could adjust the intersection point (move it forward again) by adding some toe-out toe but that will cause more tire wear. Here's some discussion from a bunch of engineers (the one guy says it really only matters during really slow speed turns): http://www.eng-tips.com/viewth...age=1


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (groftja)*

I tend to agree with the "Don't worry about it" crowd. The tires
run at a significant slip angle all the time when the car is cornering
at speed. I'm sure it's enough to make the effect of moving the intersection
point back an inch or so pretty much unnoticeable.
I'd go with 0 toe alignment and be happy.
ian


----------



## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_I'd go with 0 toe alignment and be happy.
The tires definately be happy with zero Toe....


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (eggroller)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eggroller* »_The tires definately be happy with zero Toe....









Sure helped my tires and tire temperatures!


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Testing shows that the ingalls extender may not work with some big brake kits. Many of the bbk's move the rotor slightly further inboard to allow fitting of a thicker fixed caliper. The combination of moving the end of the control arm down with the big square plate of the extender rubs the inside brake rotor surface. This will quickly cause the part to fail unfortunately.
Steve


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Does it look like this 
ECS STG I 13.1: rotors
http://www.hostdub.com/albums/...e.jpg


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Does it look like this 
ECS STG I 13.1: rotors
http://www.hostdub.com/albums/...e.jpg


The picture you showed doesn't look like it has the Ingalls extender on it. However, as you can see, there's very little clearance there so those extenders will most definitely cause problems.
Steve


----------



## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Why would this be? The extender doesn't change the ball-joint's relation to the spindle...just moves it out along the LCA. What am I missing?


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Girlsound)*

Correct but the shape of the stamped piece of the LCA extender extends beyond any other part of the control arm. When you turn the wheel, you'll make contact with the stamped steel.
Using a previous picture, notice how the end of the ball joint is rounded so when you turn the steering wheel and the rotor points at a different direction, it'll still clear the ball joint due to it's taper...








The LCA extenders have a squared profile where it's mounted to the ball joint:








This causes contact between the end of the stamped steel piece and the rotor surface to the point where it'll break.










_Modified by reflexgti at 7:49 AM 7-19-2005_


----------



## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

Ah! Gotcha. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

This makes no sen.
The ball joint itself always sticks out beyond the end of either the 
LCA or the LCA extender. In the photo above, it's the ball joint itself
that is almost touching the rotor, not the LCA. I don't see how the 
extender can have the slightest effect on the geometry between the 
ball joint and the hub that it's solidly attached to, and it definitely
does *not* stick out past the ball joint. It's below and behind it. 
If anything, I could see the extender maybe not fitting inside a 
small diameter wheel, but that's it.
ian


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

It's only when you turn the wheel that it may make contact.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

Sure it makes sense if you think about the use of the extender on cars with big brake kits. Those kits typically place the rotor further inbound to help with caliper clearance on the spokes of the wheels. 
As you turn the steering wheel, the location of the ball joint does not change but that's not the issue at hand. The location of the end of the extender is fixed though the location of the inner rotor surface moves when you turn the wheel. All close to full lock, the rotor comes close enough to the corner of the extender that it makes contact.
This picture represents the location of the rotor surface at full lock.










_Modified by reflexgti at 9:10 AM 7-19-2005_


----------



## corrado94 (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (reflexgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reflexgti* »_Sure it makes sense if you think about the use of the extender on cars with big brake kits. Those kits typically place the rotor further inbound to help with caliper clearance on the spokes of the wheels. 
_Modified by reflexgti at 9:10 AM 7-19-2005_
Yep , Thats why i will be going with a H2sport Brake kit that uses the stock r32 rotor ( and the porshe 6 piston caliper) thats not set inboard and then just use a small wheel spacer to clear the cailpers.







Bob.G


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (corrado94)*

Those six pistons were as big as a football. Your going to need a big spacer. I couldn't beleive how light those thigns were though. Im going to be changing my brake setup to a 4 piston brembro with a smaller 12.3" TT rotor. 
in regards to the control arm extender, did everyone see the prototype H2 control arm with a welded on fixed extender for the ball joint? Looked pretty sweet.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Got any pictures? Is it similar in concept to my prototype? Great to see many products being worked on for the VW.
Steve


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

yeah those 6 piston brakes from H2 sport where really nice. i think the guy said they needed something like a 20+mm spacer though







i forget exactly we'll have to see.


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Yeah if anyone has any pics of the booth that would be nice.
I doubt they would ask someone to run a 20mm spacer. That would mess up everything.


----------



## corrado94 (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_Yeah if anyone has any pics of the booth that would be nice.
I doubt they would ask someone to run a 20mm spacer. That would mess up everything.

Here is a pic of the Big brake kit







Bob.G http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2088576


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

i recall the guy saying it used like a 22mm spacer for the wheels at the display but that was w/ like a 40 offset racing wheel. I recall he said most oem 17" wheels would need something like a 17mm spacer. we'll see though they didnt seem like they were too up and up w/ the tech specs on the kit.
reason is is that it uses the tourage 6 piston calipers on R32 rotors. so its not like they made a custom 2 piece rotor with a rotor hat to bring the whole brake kit in board. Hence why it seems like you need a pretty hefty spacer.
again who knows until we get the final word from them.
But let me just say that the caliper was about the size of a cinder block lol brake kit was massive. whats beautiful about it, is its not like you are stuck w/ custom rotors or any other specialized part that will wear out. such as things like ECS's stage 2 version 2 where you need to use their rotor rings or you are SOL. THe only non factory part used is the caliper carriers...which dont wear out. the brake line could also be custom but that is something you can get easily made anywhere if you have the right specs.
Other than that you are talking a factory rotor, and a standard 6 piston brembo caliper. o BTW the price is about $1500 US. for the 6 piston kit. that is a KILLER deal for what it is. I dont think other brake kits that are upwards of $2k come close to the performance/value of the kit.
o BTW did anyone see their SPHERICAL bearings for the front AND rear bushings for the front control arms!?
kit is $325 for two brand new MKIV control arms with front spherical pivot bushings installed along with the rear sperical bearings installed.
As i recall shine is asking $275 for JUST the front pivot bushings uninstalled. 
Even i knocked h2 sport especially w/ their "its 2 weeks out" thing on their h2 sport spindles but they have brought 3 really nice products for the MKIV's that are no BS and all performance. all within the last few months. i give them a


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (Banditt007)*

Here's what it looks like on my suspension, which is basically Audi TT brakes and spindles, with the LCA extenders. It's hard to tell in the pic, but at full lock the backing plate just starts to contact the LCA extender; it doesn't get anywhere near the rotor.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

Here's a picture I took today for Daemon42 and others that are having a tough time understanding. I spoke to the Ingalls engineer too and there may be a possibility that they will be revising the part!
Now keep in mind that this most likely only affects those with big brake kits. Many of those kits position the larger rotor further inward than stock to help accomodate thicker calipers. This greatly reduces clearance and can cause problems.
Steve


















_Modified by reflexgti at 7:29 PM 7-19-2005_


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

I had no trouble understanding the problem once you mentioned
that it only occurs at full steering lock. Until that point it was
non-obvious from the earlier pictures posted.
ian


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

I'll have to check mine out tommorow when I change to the auto-x wheels. Last time I checked under the car, making sure all was tight; I did not see any clearance issue causing contact.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

If you're running the stock brake setup, you shouldn't see any issues.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

I have the stock brake setup right now; but am very close to buying TT brakes. Maybe I should hold off?


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

I doubt you'll have a problem with TT brakes. 
ian


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

I agree. TT brake users shouldn't have a problem.
Steve


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

I should have known that; knowing that each the 11.3" and 12.3" utilizes the same caliper.


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_Here's what it looks like on my suspension, which is basically Audi TT brakes and spindles, with the LCA extenders. It's hard to tell in the pic, but at full lock the backing plate just starts to contact the LCA extender; it doesn't get anywhere near the rotor. 











Here's what I posted from the previous page, there is no issue with TT brakes.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

*CAUTION*
*LCA extenders may not hold position under extreme cornering loads.*
Autocrossing yesterday, when negotiating a hard left hander, the right side extender slid all the way in.







This resulted in sudden, and potentially very dangerous toe-in. At first, we had thought the tie rod had broken. Luckily that was not the issue. I forced to retire from the event after my 3rd of six runs. The extender was adjusted on the spot. (just off course) I did not feel safe competing anymore that day; nor would the safety steward be happy if I did. This was the first time competing with these on; and driving with the Azenis. I also skipped today's event that I was regestired for.
The three bolts were cranked as tight as possible, with loctite used as well. Ingalls directs around 40lb ircc.







Between now and the next event I need to come up with a solution to prevent any chance of this happening again. I would prefer to not weld anything. I'll give Ingalls a call tommorow. They'll tell to not use them in competition.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Sorry to hear about it. I believe the torque specifications for the bolts is lower than 40 lbs. However, I think the only solution right now would involve some minor welding.
Steve


----------



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

maybe you overtorqued them and the bolts stretched and were weakened?
torque values are there for a reason and more is not better


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (TXBDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TXBDan* »_maybe you overtorqued them and the bolts stretched and were weakened?
torque values are there for a reason and more is not better

I checked if the bolts had backed out on each side afterward. I was able to get a 1/8 to 1/4 turn on them. When I said "tight", I did not mean "crazy tight."







Hope you follow. I did the install about a month ago. I believe a torque wrench was used on every bolt. I had been periodically checking every bolt and nut's torque. I was concerned about a couple others, but not the adjustable three.
The moving part is painted. The paint does account for some thickness; possibly the paint gave, allowing the lock washer to lose grip. Possible? All the paint was scraped off by the movement of the extender. Duh......I probably should go back to the other side and sand the paint off.
I am not worried about daily driving safety; but I will hold off on driving 110% until I have a solution. The 205 potenza 750's will lose grip before the extender moves.


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

One solution for your problem could be the use of TT ball joints. Because they hang down lower at the ball than the VW joints, they can't physically slide in any further than the 'max-outboard' position. They are basically fixed in that position. That's what I"m running, just because I had them on hand. No adjustability, but I was going to run them at max camber anyway.


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_*CAUTION*
*LCA extenders may not hold position under extreme cornering loads.*
Autocrossing yesterday, when negotiating a hard left hander, the right side extender slid all the way in.







This resulted in sudden, and potentially very dangerous toe-in. At first, we had thought the tie rod had broken. Luckily that was not the issue. I forced to retire from the event after my 3rd of six runs. The extender was adjusted on the spot. (just off course) I did not feel safe competing anymore that day; nor would the safety steward be happy if I did. This was the first time competing with these on; and driving with the Azenis. I also skipped today's event that I was regestired for.
The three bolts were cranked as tight as possible, with loctite used as well. Ingalls directs around 40lb ircc.







Between now and the next event I need to come up with a solution to prevent any chance of this happening again. I would prefer to not weld anything. I'll give Ingalls a call tommorow. They'll tell to not use them in competition.

Yikes, thankfully this happened in a controled enviorment, not an off-ramp! 
I was concearned about this from day one when the product was announced. Something this critcal needs to be fixed (solid) or engineered in such a way that it locks in place for each degree of change so it can't slip. (kinda like a jack stand)
Also, I hope you are re-thinking this statement:

_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_Interesting. Check out the instructions and the disclaimer. There is a bit about; these are not for race use, or on vehicles with modified suspensions. I think we'll be ignoring that.












_Modified by Stewz-GTI at 10:12 AM 7-25-2005_


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

If these are not for race use and not for modified suspension, then why would one want to buy the product? Just to get to the office with wider front track or what?


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_I wonder if the bolts will reliably hold the huge side loads without the brackets slipping. 

My 1st post in this thread. Sorry to see my fear has been realized.







Hopefully a solution will be found.
You can probably drill and tap 1 extra hole in the thick lower piece to place another bolt in the slotted (most inboard part) location. You'd place it according to where you will want to the amount of extension to be so there is room for the both old bolt and the new bolt. This will give more clamping force and thus it will be less likely to slip. 


_Modified by groftja at 4:33 PM 7-25-2005_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_If these are not for race use and not for modified suspension, then why would one want to buy the product? Just to get to the office with wider front track or what? 

Perhaps the intent is similar to the SPC camber plates and those crash bolts on MkII cars - not for performance, but for post-collision alignment correction??
Paying $150 or so for plates is a lot better than having to rebuild the subframe, control arms etc...


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Wait, before everyone runs out and says "I told you so", keep in mind that 
the TT/R32 LCAs have slots in them from the factory and the equivalent 3 
bolts attaching the ball joint to the LCA, and they do *not* slide around
under high performance driving (Auto-X, track, rough pavement, washboards
on gravel roads.. etc). There is absolutely no reason
to believe that the LCA extenders would be any more prone to
move around, unless as as suggested above there really is paint
between the two metal surfaces, in which case it should be a fairly quick
fix to remedy that, by removing the paint. If someone wanted to make it 
even more secure they could have some very fine grooves machined 
crosswise on both surfaces that press against each other, to prevent
them from ever sliding against each other. 
ian


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_
You can probably drill and tap 1 extra hole in the thick lower piece to place another bolt in the slotted (most inboard part) location. You'd place it according to where you will want to the amount of extension to be so there is room for the both old bolt and the new bolt. This will give more clamping force and thus it will be less likely to slip. 

_Modified by groftja at 4:33 PM 7-25-2005_

That was my first, and simplest idea. I would believe a bolt threaded into the fixed part used as a stop would prevent any movement.


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (redwe-in-wi)*

My car is at the alignment shop right now, the tech just called and said I'm getting 2.0 degrees negative camber per side with the Ingalls extenders. I wondered how that could be, and he said the '00 GTI's are listed as .6 neg camber from the factory. Does that sound right?


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (RabbitsKin)*

Lots of variables at work here. TT spindles can add a bit of camber, the ride height will change your camber depending where you are in the curve. The condition of your upper strut bushings can cause some additional camber. I wouldn't be concerned about it, but def make sure the torque is to spec on those parts and loctite them in there.


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

I am guessing that only the outside wheel has a problem, as it is highly loaded in a corner. In that case you need to prevent the LCA-E from moving in. So what about this: Is there a spot where you could weld an angle on the extender at the outside edge, large enough to accomodate a 1/4-20 bolt (with nuts on both sides of the new angle piece? This bolt would be tightened down to the LCA after the camber is set. It would prevent the extender from sliding in - or would at least share some of the load being resisted by the 3 mounting bolts (through friction).


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*

Just set them at max camber and weld the ******* on there


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (enginerd)*

I got the print out, it was 2.5 and 2.0 before he adjusted it (I had my subframe out of the car recently, see other thread). He was able to grind a little on the ingalls plates to give me 1.5 though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif. Remember, with my setup using TT ball joints, they won't adjust 'in' without interfering with the plate. People with VW ball joints wouldn't have had this issue.
Good to know how much camber is possible with these things though.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

Thought you guys might like to know that tirerack.com sells Ingalls products - at least for other cars. There was a big ad in the back of the tirerack summer catalog.
http://www.tirerack.com/suspen...l+Arm


_Modified by phatvw at 11:42 AM 7-27-2005_


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Thought you guys might like to know that tirerack.com sells Ingalls products - at least for other cars. There was a big ad in the back of the tirerack summer catalog.
http://www.tirerack.com/suspen...l+Arm

_Modified by phatvw at 11:42 AM 7-27-2005_

Saw that too, wonder if they have ours http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (16vracer)*

The TireRack does not have them for our cars. I called Lightening Motorsports this morning and ordered some http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (16vracer)*

Question about the Ingalls LCA extenders in regard to the recent slipping issues: If I set them to max negative camber before install and then have them welded in addition to the bolts, will I still be able to get them bolted to the LCA's or does it have to put together piece by piece ? ie will bolt holes be inaccesable etc ?


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (16vracer)*

Looks to me like the whole unit is bolted to the LCA with the bolt heads
on the bottom of the LCA, and the ball joint attaches to the extender with nuts
from the top. Means if you welded it together that you'd be able to remove the ball joint, from the bolts, but not the bolts from the extender. No biggy there. 
ian


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

Or I might just get it tapped for another bolt at the outside end of the slot. Not sure though, they will arrive on Friday and I don't get home until 9pm and the install of all my new goodies is Sunday....so I'm not sure which way I'll go with it. If I can get my buddy to drill and tap them then that;s the way I think I'll go.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (16vracer)*

I'm drilling and tapping mine tommorow. I am using a 1/4-20 rod with a nut/large square washer putting pressure on the top. So, the rod will function as a stop; and the extra hardware should apply (add) much more pressure than the supplied hardware.
Sorta like this.......








I have too much time on my hands.








I will post real pics tommorow.


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redwe-in-wi* »_
I will post real pics tommorow.

As I promised..........
This pic really shows how everything is locked together. The threaded stud cannot be bent or broken because its large square washer is butted against the supplied bolt head. Everything fits just right. Lucky me, as the fit was not planned to work this well.








[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/dwvwi/DVC01601.jpg/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/dwvwi/DVC01600.jpg








Pretty obvious what I did. Shoot me any ?'s you may have. I got all parts, tools, and hardware for free from work.


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## wuzilla (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

I just ran these extenders this past weekend at the NE Divisionals - 2 days in a row of autocrossing. I had no adverse effects (ie. slippage) - everything held up fine. At first, I was a nervous wreck especially after reading these posts right after installing the product. But no matter how hard I pushed the car, I couldn't make anything budge.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (redwe-in-wi)*

Nice job redwe-in-wi! Very ingenious improvement with good craftmanship. In the unlikely event that something goes wrong in the future, there is always strong threadlocker, lockwashers, and Grade 8 hardware waiting to show how good they are. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_Nice job redwe-in-wi! Very ingenious improvement with good craftmanship. In the unlikely event that something goes wrong in the future, there is always strong threadlocker, lockwashers, and Grade 8 hardware waiting to show how good they are. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I feel confident in taking corners at max speed now without any chance of slippage. I was a little nervous after I had the auto-x incident. There is no way this set up can give.
Unfortunately, my steering wheel is slightly off center now. To my best recolection, each side was at max camber before and should be now. I'll check it out tonight. I'm installing TT brakes. :







like a kid on Christmas


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I just ran these extenders this past weekend at the NE Divisionals - 2 days in a row of autocrossing. I had no adverse effects (ie. slippage) - everything held up fine. At first, I was a nervous wreck especially after reading these posts right after installing the product. But no matter how hard I pushed the car, I couldn't make anything budge. 

Do you have any other sources of additional camber, or just the lower extender plates?


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## wuzilla (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (rex_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rex_racer* »_Do you have any other sources of additional camber, or just the lower extender plates?

Just the lower plates. I installed them as an after thought for the event.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]sclub* »_I just ran these extenders this past weekend at the NE Divisionals - 2 days in a row of autocrossing. I had no adverse effects (ie. slippage) - everything held up fine. At first, I was a nervous wreck especially after reading these posts right after installing the product. But no matter how hard I pushed the car, I couldn't make anything budge. 

Besides confirming that they didn't slip, what were your impressions of
them otherwise? 
ian


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## wuzilla (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

First, some prelims: My car sits on Eibach springs/Koni dampers right now. Such a setup, combined with my worn strut tops, placed my front wheels well into the positive camber range. I purchased the Ingalls extenders as a cheap, quick fix to a bothersome problem - something I could quickly install until the rest of my suspension plans come into fruition this winter. 
(I've only recently begun to use this, my daily driver, as my autocrosser. I was running a friend's Rabbit for this season, but it died. With only a night before the next event, I jumped in the Mk4 and ran STS. The car I previously thought horribly uncompetitive for autocross purposes turned a 7th place in the busy DC Region. I'm now convinced that after some tuning, I can make this a front runner with the integras/civics that rule this class)
Anyways - my impressions: These things were super-simple to install. I threw them on in the hours before I was due at registration. As such, I torqued everything "snug" (I don't have a torque wrench that reads only 40lbs) and ghetto toed it with a tape measure. The toe is still a little off, but I'm at approx. -1 degrees on both sides. What else can I say? My car now has proper camber, something plenty of Mk4 owners have been able to finally experience in the past year or so. And it drives as such.


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## wuzilla (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

hmmm - Just got the car back from the alignment shop. I'm at almost -2 degrees camber on each side, alongside a caster value of 7.3 on each side (7.5-8.5 is normal.) 
I recall reading the max adjustment these things were capable of was -1 camber. I'm not running any other form of camber plate. Any thoughts?


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

When mine was at the alignment shop, they initially measured -2.5 and -2.0 for front left and right camber (the difference was because my subframe had been out of the car). I had them adjust it in to about 1.5, but I was surprised at how much camber was possible.


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## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_hmmm - Just got the car back from the alignment shop. I'm at almost -2 degrees camber on each side, alongside a caster value of 7.3 on each side (7.5-8.5 is normal.) 
I recall reading the max adjustment these things were capable of was -1 camber. I'm not running any other form of camber plate. Any thoughts?

Perhaps because you have the Eibach springs. They lower the car, giving it more static negative camber than stock. So you have more to begin with...static at least.


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

Found a good price for those on the fence. $87.95
FS: VW G/J/B IV Front Camber Adjusting Bracket NOW AVAILABLE @ GMP It appears to be the Ingalls product.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (eggroller)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eggroller* »_Found a good price for those on the fence. $87.95
FS: VW G/J/B IV Front Camber Adjusting Bracket NOW AVAILABLE @ GMP It appears to be the Ingalls product.

Thats $87.95 per side btw...


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## GMP - Stephen (May 7, 2004)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

You can combine this Ingalls kit with another piece we have available.
http://www.gmpperformance.com/...20147


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (GMPperformance)*

O! Did I see a huge rubber bushing in there?


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (GMPperformance)*

I like the simplicity of that design. Good for someone who is looking for just that amount of camber/caster change (doesn't need to adjust it). If anyone has this part, I'd like to hear their comments. With parts like these, ruggedness is a primary requirement, so that is one thing I'd like to hear about.


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (GMPperformance)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GMPperformance* »_You can combine this Ingalls kit with another piece we have available.
http://www.gmpperformance.com/...20147

Nice price! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
That's the SPC camber kit: http://www.spcperformance.com/....html
Edit: In this the camber plate thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1432095myself and others have commented about the performance of these.

















_Modified by RichB at 8:12 PM 8-16-2005_


_Modified by RichB at 8:16 PM 8-16-2005_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (RichB)*

Yep my SPC's work pretty well and I got em for about $60/side at nopionline.com. I think they are now listed at $70/side which is currently the best online price.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

I'm a dumbasz, I didn't realize this was the SPC camber plates...I thought it was something new.


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## 1.8T_CR (Oct 24, 2003)

I bought mine in summitracing.com
Part # IEC-35655
$75.34 Shipped


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## PerfCafe (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (eggroller)*

We have these on sale right now---> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2210732
JOn







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: Interesting MkIV adjustable front camber product (PerfCafe)*

I have the Ingalls lower ball joint mounts installed. 
Make sure you check the torque, as the mointing bolts have slipped on me on 2 different times. 
I am now saving for the drop spindles and H2-Sports camber plates. As soon as I can afford to get them, the ingalls joint plates are going in the dumpster. 
The Ingalls design is flawed. The bottom plate is powder coated, and as the powdercoat cracks away it loosens the securing bolts. I even stripped them down and it still has issues. It just will not hold up to high speed cornering. 
Drop spindles and tubular control arms with camber plates are my next investment for sure.


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