# Fred's Used Phaeton Market Report and Daily Bird-Dogger...



## wireless (Jun 13, 1999)

*resale prices*

Hello All:
In an effort to keep all the information about a single topic organized and easy to find in one place - this being a normal practice here in the Phaeton forum - I have created this thread, so all the resale reports, used Phaeton listings, and other related musings can be found in one spot. 
So, same as we have done with the leasing thread, the aftermarket wheels thread, and the suspension adjustments thread, may I respectfully ask all of you to post used Phaeton resale topics here? Fred, you might want to bookmark this one, I have named it in your honour, in recognition of the pioneering research work you have done in this field.
Michael 
*Have I got a deal for you...*








Do you guys expect the resales prices of Phaetons to fall through the floor in a year or two like Passat W-8's have? 



_Modified by Paldi at 12:38 AM 11-11-2006_


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## whealy (Nov 15, 2004)

wireless,
Who knows what the future will hold. If current trends continue resale value will drop. If things turn around, price could hold. I would guess the former would be the most likely scenario.
As for me, I find that leasing cushions this concern. If the vehicle is worth less than expected after the term, you walk away and the lessor is left holding the bag. If it's worth more, you can buy it and sell or keep.
In any event, eventually Phaeton's will be in your price range. The question is how long do you want to wait and how many miles do you want on it? More miles and the price will obviously come quicker. Less miles and you are more linked to market changes.
Good luck however you decide to proceed.



_Modified by whealy at 9:53 AM 2-20-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: resale prices (wireless)*

I agree pretty much with what Bill said above. I think depreciation on the Phaeton will be similar to depreciation on other cars in its niche. The W12's will have depreciation similar to other 12 cylinder cars, which is to say, quite a bit. It's possible that V8 resale prices might actually beat the category average, because most people who would be interested in a used one have read about the car and know how good it is - and there are not a great number of Phaetons around.
I think the W8 Passat is not a good comparison, because that is a sub-model within an existing family (that is at the end of its model life), rather than a totally different, stand-alone model.
The majority of Phaeton owners have leased the cars, for exactly the reason Bill mentioned - depreciation protection. I was going to buy mine outright, but my dealer told me that would be a no-no, because the product was new, it would be much safer to lease.
We'll have to wait and see.
Michael


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## wireless (Jun 13, 1999)

*Re: (riccone)*

What are you guys' lease payments and for how long? What is the residual at the end? And how much was the getting in cost?
I ask because it's a simple calculation to figure out what VW or the dealer is figuring to be the present value of the car if those facts are known.
This is just basic financial stuff. I'm interested because several people have said a lease was recommended because of the unknown future value of the car.
I'm curious as to what VW considers the present value of the car based on what they're leasing them for.
-David


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (wireless)*

We have a thread reserved for lease price discussions at this link: 2005 "Official" Lease Prices Thread. Perhaps you might find the information you need there.
Michael


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Are the number of used vehicles for sale a cause for concern*

There seems to be many used 2004 Phaetons for sale. For selling a small number, it seems awfully high. About 50-60 2004s on AutoTrade website. I have heard that some people had a difficult time with the payments, so I can see how this volkswagon price wise can be challenging for previous VW owners. This is the first Volkswagon I have purchased. I used to be an Audi owner for many years. 


_Modified by dzier at 5:52 PM 3-7-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Are the number of used vehicles for sale a cause for concern (dzier)*

I don't think the number of Phaetons for sale is cause for any concern at all.
As others have pointed out, many of these vehicles are demonstrators, and as such, the don't represent vehicles that are being sold by someone who has "owned" them and made a decision to sell the car, they really represent new, unsold inventory that has a few miles on it.
In the aviation industry, if 10% of any given fleet is on the resale market at one time, that is considered 'normal supply'. Anything less than 10% is considered tight supply, and when the percentage of the total fleet available for resale is 5% or less, it is a sellers' market.
In the case of the Phaeton, if we ignore demonstrators, which really don't count as 'resales', it appears that there is less than 5% (100 vehicles) on the resale market - that makes supply very tight at this time. I don't think we will see any action in the Phaeton resale market until leases for the first 2004s start ending. Until then, the odd Phaeton that might pass through the resale market - perhaps being disposed of by someone who trades cars every 6 months or so - will be a bit of an anomaly, and there won't really be enough volume out there to establish resale market values with any certainty.
Michael


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## bigbugiv (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Are the number of used vehicles for sale a cause for concern (dzier)*

Interesting you have brought up the topic...I was just thinking the same thing just last night when I was reading a few threads and linked onto auto-trader. True, that many are demos...however, I think it may not bode well in terms of "marketing" based on the short supply of said cars in the USA. I can't tell you how many people ask me "what's a phaeton?" wasn't sales volume down in 1/05 for the "pht*bug"? I just started driving mine this past weekend and I have a lot to learn on this car's learning curve. This car is certainly not for just anyone. My friend tt who is the real "car guy" got me started with his w-12 but the real turning point for me was the "quality of construction." I rented a Lincoln continental 200 miles young in orange county, ca. Popped the trunk from the rear to through in the bags and "wham" the trunk lid almost disconnected from it's one rocker arm. In fact, I could move the trunk lid about an inch from side to side with one hand! What a sad commentary for a "high-end" model???? Read about a W-12 in Carlsbad, ca. Closed the deal in 5 mins and had it shipped back to va. I knew I was taking a risk on the car considering it just came out of the starting gate. However, based on the "quality issues" it was a no brainer. In fact, if I had a bank roll, I would buy all the cars currently available and start my own marketing promo! Now, if I could only lower the body and get some bigger wheels!! Time will tell. However, I know these gas prices are not helping W-12 owners... But again, it’s like a yacht, if you have to ask how much is the fuel, you shouldn't be buying one!
_Reformatted by Michael to fix ALL CAPS posting - text otherwise unchanged._


_Modified by PanEuropean at 2:26 AM 3-8-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Are the number of used vehicles for sale a cause for concern (bigbugiv)*

Hi John:
Welcome to our forum, and welcome also to Phaeton ownership. Not sure if you have already discovered our "Frequently Asked Questions" page or not, here is the link: Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category). The second of the two posts in that thread is of most interest to new Phaeton owners, the first post deals mostly with pre-purchase information.
Let us know if you have any questions, or if any of us can help you.
Michael


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## harrisonsapir (Oct 24, 2004)

*Re: Are the number of used vehicles for sale a cause for concern (PanEuropean)*

Look at other cars that just came out. A search of R32's or Continental GT's will find plenty of available cars for models that are supposed to be hard to get (all used, I know).


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Paldi*

It's time to buy a used Phaeton Fred. The used Phaeton car market drop will slow down since the retail prices of new Phaetons are not going to be as low as in the past. VW has stopped these huge discounts on new cars and the supply is down for the moment. If anyone is going to buy a used Phaeton , now will be the best time ever. Supply and demand is now equalizing and further depreciation will slow dramatically. 
David


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Paldi (dcowan699)*

Yes, I figure the prices will hold steady through Summer and take a dip in the fall. The problem is availability. I want a loaded car...


_Modified by Paldi at 4:30 PM 5-3-2005_


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Paldi (wireless)*

I am alarmed at how many Phaetons are going up for auction consdiering the low volume sold so far.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: Paldi (dzier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dzier* »_I am alarmed at how many Phaetons are going up for auction consdiering the low volume sold so far.

Have no fear Dave. In the next six-months all will be cleared out and the balance will be restored. That said, I'm sure you'll see one pop up from time to time but nothing like the current inventory at auction.
VW wants to grow their Phaeton slowly like the Bentley. Those who are in the know will buy the car and those looking for a badge for image will not. VW is very happy with that demographic.
Bottom-line, there is nothing to worry about.


_Modified by rmg2 at 2:27 PM 4-26-2005_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Paldi (rmg2)*

Now there's 27 in the auction line up next week.








I expect we'll see a bunch of used cars on the lots soon and on eBay/Auto Trader as well.



_Modified by Paldi at 10:10 PM 11-9-2006_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Draft: (Paldi)*

Be careful of these three, smart shoppers! Three bad apples out of 27 ain't bad.

Branded Title
2004 PHAETON V8
VIN: WVWAF63D048010944 

Branded Title
2004 PHAETON W12
VIN: WVWAH63D348008096 
Avoid this one too.
2004 PHAETON W12
VIN: WVWAH63D148006976 
TOTAL REPAINT!



_Modified by Paldi at 11:31 AM 11-11-2006_


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## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: Draft: (Paldi)*

Well I have the history on that buyback with 24K on it, I sold that car when I was in corona.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Draft: (CapoVWSales)*

Hi Derek:
In very general terms, what were the concerns that prompted the buyback? I am curious to know if they were issues that have come up here in the forum, and we have subsequently identified solutions for.
Michael


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## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: Draft: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Derek:
In very general terms, what were the concerns that prompted the buyback? I am curious to know if they were issues that have come up here in the forum, and we have subsequently identified solutions for.
Michael

Reason was for TMPS, I think it was due to the 20s put on the car, they looked sharp, but I spoke with the old owner and he is enjoying his touareg though, but his wife misses the W12, but I didnt tell him that his car went through auction, and that it didnt meet VWoAs reserve price so it goes again until they find the right buyer, the old owner is a really nice guy and a car nut to boot. But I wish that he was closer because he would get another one, and I think he would like the new spec W12.
D


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## Howard W (Mar 26, 2005)

*Re: Draft: (PanEuropean)*

I am one of the "lookers". This is only my second post in the months that I have been lurking. 
I am very interested in a Phaeton for my wife (which becomes our family car that I drive about 20%, since my AMG is too small for my daughters to fit in back). I am in no rush since I have extended her current lease on a month-to-month basis, so I can buy Phaeton at any time. I am considering both a well-negotiated new car (lease), or a great purchase on a used Phaeton and am leaning toward used (buy). I find these postings very helpful. While the upcoming auctions are interesting, it is more helpful when they are followed-up with the sale price.
Howard


_Modified by Paldi at 12:44 AM 11-11-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Draft: (Howard W)*

Hi Howard:
Welcome to the forum, and thank you very much for posting the feedback. It's great to hear there are folks out there who find this information useful.
Michael


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: Draft: (Howard W)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Howard W* »_
I am one of the "lookers". This is only my second post in the months that I have been lurking. 
I am very interested in a Phaeton for my wife (which becomes our family car that I drive about 20%, since my AMG is too small for my daughters to fit in back). I am in no rush since I have extended her current lease on a month-to-month basis, so I can buy Phaeton at any time. I am considering both a well-negotiated new car (lease), or a great purchase on a used Phaeton and am leaning toward used (buy). I find these postings very helpful. While the upcoming auctions are interesting, it is more helpful when they are followed-up with the sale price.
Howard

Hi Howard,
Good to hear from you. Glad you're here.
Depending on your budget that W12 in NJ with only 2500 miles sounds like a steal at $64K. It had a MSRP of over $100K.
Per VW they are cutting back production of the Phaeton and by mid-2006 most Phaetons will have to be ordered thereby cutting the over supply of cars in the marketplace. VW said they were happy with only selling about 1000 cars this year and that they are committed to growing VW sales slowly in order to create a demand for the car which will keep prices higher across the board.
Therefore if you're in the market for a Phaeton you may want to move quickly in order to secure a great deal.
I you hope you find what you're looking for and join the growing ranks of Phaeton owners. We need some Mid-Western owners.



_Modified by Paldi at 12:46 AM 11-11-2006_


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Draft: (Paldi)*

looks like w12's have slipped a 1000 or so and v8's are firming up
Ed.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Draft: (viscount)*

Saw one go through auction in the high $30's.











_Modified by Paldi at 10:34 PM 11-7-2006_


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## wireless (Jun 13, 1999)

*Re: Draft: (Paldi)*

Woo hoo! There's that magic $30's number. Not long before they drop to something I'll pay.


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## jrdlr (Mar 6, 2001)

*Re: Draft: (Paldi)*

looks like there are 8 or 9 going thru arena tommorow. I might buy 1 or 2.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Draft: (jrdlr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jrdlr* »_looks like there are 8 or 9 going thru arena tomorrow. I might buy 1 or 2.









That's a lot in one place. A sad get to gether.



_Modified by Paldi at 10:36 PM 11-7-2006_


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

Looks like a bunch of folks got in over their heads?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (riccone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riccone* »_Looks like a bunch of folks got in over their heads?

They might just be vehicles coming back off of one year leases. It's true that a one year lease is pretty impractical - but, so is a W12 Phaeton, for that matter.








Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*D.C. - Virginia Ashburn Auction list.*

Coming soon to dealers near you.
The blue W12 looks sweet as it is a 4-seater!
HERE'S THE LINK this aSHBURN sale is open to the public view.http://presale.ashburn.auction...vent=

2004 PHAETON WVWAF63D748007572 SILVER Leather 16849
2004 PHAETON WVWBH63D848006669 BLUE Leather 10951 
2004 PHAETON WVWBH63D648006539 SILVER Leather 13932
2004 PHAETON WVWAH63D048006662 SILVER Leather 12080
2004 PHAETON WVWAF63D348006645 BLUE Leather 19430
2004 PHAETON WVWAF63D048006537 GRAY Leather 17000
2004 PHAETON WVWAF63D348008959 SILVER Leather 8295



_Modified by Paldi at 11:36 AM 11-11-2006_


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: D.C. - Virginia Ashburn Auction list. (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Coming soon to dealers near you.
The blue W12 looks sweet as it is a 4-seater!

4 seater?


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: D.C. - Virginia Ashburn Auction list. (riccone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riccone* »_4 seater?

Yes, the two with the letter "B" in the VIN are 4-seat option cars. One blue, one silver at this auction. Photo of rear seats not available however you can see the individual armrests for the front console.








(Whoever wrote the remarks for the blue and silver 4-seater W12s probably didn't see the cars. It says 5 seat in the remarks and that's wrong.)
The letter "F" identifies a V8 4.2 and the letter "H" is for cars equipped with the W12 6.0 engine.
_Modified by Paldi at 12:13 PM 5-12-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 1:46 PM 5-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: D.C. - Virginia Ashburn Auction list. (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_...Yes, the two with the letter "B" in the VIN are 4-seat option cars...

Hey, that's neat! I didn't know that the VIN's worked that way.
If I understand you correctly, if the 4th digit from the left is an A, the car is 5 seat configuration, and if the 4th digit from the left is a B, it is a 4 seat configuration, is that correct?
I wonder if there is any indication in the VIN whether the car is long or short wheelbase?
Michael


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## ehaase (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: D.C. - Virginia Ashburn Auction list. (Paldi)*

Fred:
Where in Ashburn/Dulles is this auction? I live in that area and did not know there was a major auction (I assume for dealers only). There is a CarMax in Dulles and I have noticed they have quite a few VW's on their lot. Also, the Lindsay Cadillac/Lexus Washington DC dealer group just opened a brand-new VW dealer in Dulles. They have to wait until their sales/service scores are established before VW will let them carry the Phaeton.
Thanks Fred, and best wishes with your new Phaeton....it is a great color!
Ed


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: D.C. - Virginia Ashburn Auction list. (ehaase)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ehaase* »_Fred:
Where in Ashburn/Dulles is this auction? I live in that area and did not know there was a major auction (I assume for dealers only). 
Thanks Fred, and best wishes with your new Phaeton....it is a great color!
Ed









Sorry Ed, I don't have an address for the auction location. Your new VW dealership will know - they probably will fill their used car lot with auction vehicles to jump-start their business.
Yep, blue is faster!







Mine is Luna - darker than the Phaeton in the auction photo. Can anyone ID the color?


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## NashvilleAudi (Sep 24, 2003)

*2004 W12 for sale in Nashville*

Just saw this when I had my W8 in for 20K service Saturday, the 28th of May.
http://www.hallmarkauto.com/cp441.htm
Salesman said that it was a car that a guy had "won" via some charity; VW had donated it and he had top bid on the lease deal. Something like that. But he wanted something else, so go figure.
I believe there's about 8,000 miles on it. It was very clean. Salesman said it was one of the original Premier edition models, so it should have all the associated options.
Ask for "G" in sales. His name is Gil, but he's French Canadian, so it's "Jeel", which no one in Tennessee pronounces right, and there's another guy named Gil, so... it's just "G".
Tell him that Greg with the W8 referred you - gotta stay in good with the salespeople!
My added edit - I have no financial involvement with this car or dealership, just to stay on the up-and-up.


_Modified by NashvilleAudi at 7:07 PM 5-29-2005_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: 2004 W12 for sale in Nashville (NashvilleAudi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NashvilleAudi* »_
Salesman said that it was a car that a guy had "won" via some charity; VW had donated it and he had top bid on the lease deal. Something like that. But he wanted something else, so go figure.
I believe there's about 8,000 miles on it. It was very clean. Salesman said it was one of the original Premier edition models, so it should have all the associated options.


I didn't know VW was leasing W12 Phaetons via charity raffles. Do you have any details about the program? Are any other Phaetons being raffled off?


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## NashvilleAudi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: 2004 W12 for sale in Nashville (Paldi)*

No details at all on how the car was initially auctioned - and I don't even know if I described it exactly right.


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## LongIslander (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (Paldi)*

The 12584 miles W12 Blue is the one on Ebay right now (heliochrome Blue)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...=WDVW


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (LongIslander)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LongIslander* »_
The 12584 miles W12 Blue is the one on Ebay right now (heliochrome Blue)


Brother, that's amazing! It sure went low at the wholesale auction, bidders didn't know what they were looking at! 








The $65,900 "Buy IT Now" price seems fair.



_Modified by Paldi at 1:35 PM 5-31-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_ It sure went low at the auction, bidders didn't know what they were looking at! 








I don't think it has sold yet (if it is the eBay auction you are speaking of) - I looked at the eBay listing, and the reserve price has not yet been met.
Then again, if you are referring to the wholesale auction - I feel bad for the poor dealer trying to sell the thing on eBay, when all of us know exactly what he paid for it at the wholesale auction!








Michael


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I feel bad for the poor dealer trying to sell the thing on eBay, when all of us know exactly what he paid for it at the wholesale auction!








Michael

I think it's rather common for the dealers to stick cars up on ebay as soon as they hit the sales lot - if it sells for a quick profit then excellent, if it doesn't go then there's relatively little loss as even though the auction may have cost a little bit, people will now know they have the car which can easily cover that amount if people stop by to see the car and potentially buy it. A little off Phaeton topic, but just a little insight http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by the brit at 9:26 AM 5-31-2005_


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (the brit)*

Have we seen any auction results for 05's yet, V8 or W12? When would we expect those? 
And typically, would those prices be expected to fall right in line with 04's, say +$2000 or +$3000 over what the 04's go for now, for the fact that it is 1 year newer and has less miles?
Thanks


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## LongIslander (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (the brit)*

Reply to: The Brit (2 posts back)
Yes...You are spot on!
Ebay is rarely the sales venue, but most often the best "classified ad" one can use.
Last year I sold my 2002 Ferrari 360 Spider F1 by listing it on Ebay (still shedding many tears). It did not meet the "reserve price" I had set (and as you noted, did not really expect it to), but for the few dollars the Ebay listing cost, I made contact with 6 serious, prospective purchasers, one of whom turned out to be the ultimate buyer. Because one is able to provide all of the detail, as well as a zillion photos, anyone inquiring after the end of the auction is usually well-briefed and ready to be serious if they take the effort to then make contact. 


_Modified by LongIslander at 8:53 PM 5-30-2005_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Then again, if you are referring to the wholesale auction - I feel bad for the poor dealer trying to sell the thing on eBay, when all of us know exactly what he paid for it at the wholesale auction!








Michael

Ebay sold prices are public knowledge for about a month on their site...
Philosophically, do you think I should not post the sold prices? I have held back and not posted them as a courtesy, whenever one of our Members lists one here in the Forum as a F/S post.



_Modified by Paldi at 10:32 PM 11-7-2006_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (dododavis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dododavis* »_Have we seen any auction results for 05's yet, V8 or W12? When would we expect those? 
And typically, would those prices be expected to fall right in line with 04's, say +$2000 or +$3000 over what the 04's go for now, for the fact that it is 1 year newer and has less miles?
Thanks

I have seen NO 2005's at auction yet. 
Prices on an '05 would likely be higher than $2-3k over the '04's. VW has only sold/leased relatively few so far. Less than 400 give or take a few? 


_Modified by Paldi at 3:30 PM 6-2-2005_


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## 91 16V Jetta (Dec 6, 1999)

*Re: Mid May results - Manheim, Riverside: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_
Philosophically, do you think I should not post the sold prices? I have held back and not posted them as a courtesy, whenever one of our Members lists one here in the Forum as a F/S post.


Yes, please continue to post the sold prices as you have. I find it a very valuable tool - they are almost getting to the price that I'm willing to pay for one of these cars. We all want the dealers to stay in business, but I would certainly like to know if I'm handing the dealer a $15K - $20K tip.


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## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: West Coasters alert - Riverside Auto Auction - a bunch of W12s and one V8. (Paldi)*

2004 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V12 4D SEDAN 
VIN: WVWAH63D348008096 
Color: BLACK 
Mileage: 24,211 
LEMONLAW BUYBACK- BRANDED TITLE 
Sale Date: 06/23/2005 
This is my old clients car.

Watch out for it on retail, it was in the shop 30+ days, it has been fixed, I spoke with the service manager and he thinks that it was the operator, he drove it for about 3-4 weeks, and it was fine. 


_Modified by Paldi at 10:42 PM 11-8-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: West Coasters alert - Riverside Auto Auction - a bunch of W12s and one V8. (CapoVWSales)*

I have said it before - I would buy any 'lemon buyback' Phaeton in a heartbeat, even sight unseen. I honestly think there are only two possible causes for lemon law buybacks of Phaetons:
*1)* VW does not get the appropriate information out to the technician to enable him or her to take the correct action first time around to solve a problem, or;
*2) *The vehicle owner takes advantage of the lemon law legislation to force the manufacturer to buy back a perfectly healthy vehicle. (I think this is more common with the W12 buybacks than the V8 buybacks).
Either way, if you have a good VW dealership in your town, with folks in the service department that you feel good working with, and you have access to the information all of us here on the forum can provide, you simply can't go wrong purchasing a Phaeton that has been bought back.
Michael


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## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: West Coasters alert - Riverside Auto Auction - a bunch of W12s and one V8. (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I have said it before - I would buy any 'lemon buyback' Phaeton in a heartbeat, even sight unseen. I honestly think there are only two possible causes for lemon law buybacks of Phaetons:
*1)* VW does not get the appropriate information out to the technician to enable him or her to take the correct action first time around to solve a problem, or;
*2) *The vehicle owner takes advantage of the lemon law legislation to force the manufacturer to buy back a perfectly healthy vehicle. (I think this is more common with the W12 buybacks than the V8 buybacks).
Either way, if you have a good VW dealership in your town, with folks in the service department that you feel good working with, and you have access to the information all of us here on the forum can provide, you simply can't go wrong purchasing a Phaeton that has been bought back.
Michael

I think that this is definately a healthy outlook on the car, but not all to common of an outlook, usually a buyback does go for less money than a CPO car, but sometimes on the retail side, the consumer is a little unrealistic, also VW took a huge loss on this particular Phaeton, I know what the consumer got back on his buy back, and VW did cry on this one.....


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

David
Funny thing about the Phaeton for sale web site.
The first one on the list that came up is Larry Miller, Where I got my Phaeton. As a matter of fact if you look at the photo of the one for sale that is my delivery Phaeton occurring in the background on the left.
Anway the Car for sale is a NEW 2005 Notice the 10 miles on the detail info sheet as the mileage, not what is shown on the listing. I almost got that one but liked the Anthracite interior better. He is the only Dealer in AZ that has any Phaetons in stock. If someone is interested they should call and ask for "Cesar" tell him you want the "Deal" Don got on his and you will do a lot better than the price on the web site, or any of the prices shown for that matter.


_Modified by GripperDon at 11:09 AM 6-25-2005_


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Early August SOLD PRICES at the Manheim Central Florida Auction (Paldi)*

I'm seriously concerned about this spurious talk about the Phaeton being discontinued...this seems unlikely given what we have heard from people in the know, but to think that my next w12 in papillion heliochrome with the fridge, paddle shifters, keyless start, dvd's in the back with piano lacquer black trim isn't possible is unduly disturbing!! Our only option at that point would be the flying spur...


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

I know that some people have ordered 2006 models, and some on this forum have indicated they have 2006 Phaetons on the way. I think it is 2007 model that is uncertain.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Four 2005's - here they come! And two 2004 W12 four-seaters and a branded 2004*

I think the start of 2005's are appearing at the auctions.



_Modified by Paldi at 9:54 PM 11-7-2006_


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Four 2005's - here they come! And two 2004 W12 four-seaters and a branded 2004 (Paldi)*

3 have low miles too.... owners frustrated and returned to VW????


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Some of these vehicles are VW Corporate cars, plus a significant number are lease returns. I had explored the Mannheim list earlier this week looking for S4/S6's.
~PC


_Modified by PhaetonChix at 12:17 PM 10-20-2005_


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Mid November at the auctions. (PanEuropean)*

It would probably be a good month to pick up a 2004 Phaeton then. With this many up for sale, it just has to depress the price as it becomes a buyer's market. Unfortunately, I'm not in the market for one.


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Who's cornering the used Phaeton market?*

Out of curiosity, I just looked at the Phaetons for sale on eBay. 7 of them, over half, are being sold by "eimports4less" out of Buck's County, PA. They're auctioning 75 cars right now, all German except for one Lexus and a Chrysler Crossfire (just a rebodied MB SLK). Ebay isn't representative of the entire used market, but these guys will develop some pretty interesting Phaeton pricing data before long. Unfortunately, they don't do "Buy it Now", that would be an indicator of where things stand.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Who's cornering the used Phaeton market? (PC Dave)*

They are 40 miles from me - practically in my back yard. BTW, you can search "completed items" for Phaetons on ebay, if you care to.


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

those are very good prices. . . looks like we have a collectable.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (riccone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riccone* »_those are very good prices. . . looks like we have a collectable.

Look carefully, these are prices paid for 2005's not 2004's. Prices are falling and falling fast.


_Modified by Paldi at 11:42 PM 11-7-2006_


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Look carefully, these are prices paid for 2005's not 2004's.

are you sure? how do you know from data given? lease returns that are 05?


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: OK here's the data for 2004s (Paldi)*

Prices on the 2004's seem to be dropping 
REPORTED WHOLESALE AUCTION SALES - 
Type Miles Price Sale date Engine
4D SEDAN 4,370 $44,000 11/17/05 8G 
4D SEDAN 8,940 $43,500 10/25/05 8G 
4D SEDAN 11,070 $42,600 10/25/05 8G 
4D SEDAN 9,501 $42,400 11/17/05 8G 
4D SEDAN 11,130 $41,700 10/25/05 8G
4D SEDAN 13,704 $41,000 10/25/05 8G 
4D SEDAN 16,305 $40,800 10/25/05 8G 
4D SEDAN 9,162 $40,500 11/10/05 8G 
4D SEDAN 16,915 $40,300 10/25/05 8G BLACK 
4D SEDAN 13,327 $40,300 10/25/05 8G BLUE 
4D SEDAN 19,613 $39,700 11/17/05 8G BLACK 
4D SEDAN 20,465 $39,600 10/25/05 8G SILVER 
4D SEDAN 17,973 $39,000 10/25/05 8G PURPLE 
4D SEDAN 17,092 $39,000 11/03/05 8G GRAY 
4D SEDAN 9,583 $38,900 10/25/05 8G SILVER 
4D SEDAN 20,777 $38,200 11/17/05 8G SILVER 
4D SEDAN 15,410 $38,000 11/03/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN 13,399 $38,000 11/17/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN 13,058 $37,500 10/25/05 8G BLUE 
4D SEDAN 21,334 $37,000 11/17/05 8G MAROON 
4D SEDAN 23,984 $37,000 11/16/05 8G SILVER 
4D SEDAN 23,402 $36,500 11/17/05 8G SILVER 
4D SEDAN 35,596 $36,000 11/17/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN 15,827 $36,000 11/09/05 8G BLUE 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R E C A P
Make: VOLKSWAGEN 
Model: PHAETON V8 
Style: 4D SEDAN 
Year: 2004 
Prices High: $44,000 
Low: $36,000 
Average: $39,479 
Average Miles: 15,914 

_Modified by Kcmover at 7:53 AM 12-1-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 11:58 PM 11-8-2006_


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Let's compare it to the Audi A8 Auction sales.......*

Compared to the AUDI A8 auction sales the Phaeton is still tanking in price at the Auction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 22, 2005 
Make: AUDI 
Model: A8 
Style: 4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 
Year: 2004 
Engine: ____________________ 
REPORTED WHOLESALE AUCTION SALES - With Exact Matches Type Miles Price Sale date Auction Engine T
R Cond Color Sample 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 9,349 $53,250 11/17/05 8G O Abv SILVER Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 20,047 $52,500 11/14/05 8G A Abv SILVER Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 11,374 $52,250 11/10/05 8G A Abv SILVER Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 22,644 $52,000 11/14/05 8G A Abv BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 10,995 $52,000 11/17/05 8G A Abv BLACK Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 11,624 $50,750 11/17/05 8G S Abv BLACK Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 6,174 $49,750 11/10/05 8G A Avg GRAY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 19,380 $49,000 10/25/05 8G A Avg BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 23,658 $49,000 10/25/05 8G A Avg GREY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 24,033 $48,500 10/25/05 8G A Avg BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 23,633 $47,800 11/16/05 8G Avg BLACK Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 35,920 $47,750 10/25/05 8G A Avg SILVER Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 22,643 $47,000 10/26/05 FLA 8G A Avg GREY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 16,834 $46,800 11/03/05 G O Avg BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 11,400 $46,800 11/17/05 8G S Avg GRAY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 28,314 $46,600 11/17/05 8G O Avg SILVER Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 15,416 $46,500 10/25/05 8G A Avg BLACK Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 9,066 $46,400 11/03/05 8G O Avg DKGRAY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 28,588 $45,600 11/10/05 8G A Avg BLACK Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 18,394 $45,500 11/17/05 8G O Avg GRAY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 23,520 $45,250 11/10/05 8G A Avg BLACK Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 28,924 $45,200 11/09/05 8G A Avg GRAY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 15,840 $45,200 11/16/05 8G S Avg BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 25,231 $45,000 11/10/05 8G A Avg BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 12,729 $44,900 10/28/05 8G A Avg GOLD Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 17,853 $44,800 11/17/05 8G O Avg BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 25,007 $44,100 11/16/05 8G S Avg GREY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 45,327 $44,000 10/25/05 8G A Avg BLACK N 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 22,667 $43,750 10/25/05 8G A Avg GREY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 30,811 $43,000 11/17/05 8G A Blw GREEN Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 20,632 $42,750 11/10/05 8G A Blw GREY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 32,808 $42,000 10/26/05 8G A Blw BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 36,436 $42,000 11/10/05 8G A Blw BLACK N 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 30,630 $42,000 11/16/05 8G S Blw GREY Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 41,614 $40,600 11/16/05 8G S Blw BLACK N 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 54,512 $37,900 11/04/05 8G A Blw BLUE N 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R E C A P
Make: AUDI 
Model: A8 
Style: 4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 
Year: 2004 
Prices High: $53,250 
Low: $37,900 
Average: $46,339 

Average Miles: 23,167 
# of Vehicles: 36 




_Modified by Kcmover at 7:57 AM 12-1-2005_


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## starcar (Jul 9, 2005)

*Re: Let's compare it to the Audi A8 Auction sales....... (Kcmover)*

It would be interesting to know how much Phaetons went out the door for, compared to Audi. That might tell it better.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's compare it to the Audi A8 Auction sales....... (starcar)*

Seems to be a pretty consistent $10,000 difference here between the Audi and the Ph8n. I believe that was the situation when I bought mine last May... 
As for the auction prices, keep in mind the mark up by dealers is generally $4,000 to $6,000. The amount received by a private party may differ from dealer ask prices.


_Modified by Paldi at 5:30 PM 11-22-2005_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Let's compare it to the Audi A8 Auction sales....... (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Seems to be a pretty consistant $10,000 difference here.

But no actual difference if the actual selling (not sticker) price of the A8s was $10,000 higher, which would not surprise me. 
The percentage drop in sale price is what is really significant, not the raw numbers.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's compare it to the Audi A8 Auction sales....... (Kcmover)*

Larry, thanks very much for posting the average Phaeton prices and the average Audi prices. That's really interesting information.
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Let's compare it to the Audi A8 Auction sales....... (PanEuropean)*

Yes the comparison shows that Phaeton's are not losing an inch to the A8 in terms of depreciation on a relative basis given the original selling prices. In fact its quite possible Phaeton's may have a small edge given the 6k$ average now, vs quite likely a 10k$+ edge at initial sale- after the incentives. Even without incentives its quite likely the margin has been maintained....now, it would be interesting to compare against S500, or S430 and the 745il...
Ed.


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Let's compare it to the Audi A8 Auction sales....... (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_now, it would be interesting to compare against S500, or S430 and the 745il...Ed.

Phaeton isn't the only car with incentives. On a Mercedes site a member posted yesterday that his local dealer in Columbus, OH was advertising all S-Classes in stock at $15k off MSRP, presumably in advance of the new-gen W221 introduction in Feb. That's got to hammer resale on 1-2 year old current-gen cars as well. This is just a great time to be buying luxury cars, not so great a time to sell them.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Phaeton*

2004
Make: VOLKSWAGEN 
Model: PHAETON V8 
Style: 4D SEDAN 

Date Price Mileage Color Eng
11/22/05 $45,900 1,288 BLACK 8G
11/22/05 $38,100 17,228 BLUE 8G
11/22/05 $37,600 15,024 BLUE 8G
11/22/05 $36,200 21,492 SILVER 8G
11/22/05 $35,700 26,619 BLUE 8G
11/17/05 $44,000 4,370 SILVER 8G
11/17/05 $42,400 9,501 SILVER 8G
11/17/05 $39,700 19,613 BLACK 8G
11/17/05 $38,200 20,777 SILVER 8G
11/17/05 $38,000 13,399 SILVER 8G
11/17/05 $37,000 21,334 MAROON 8G 
11/17/05 $36,500 23,402 SILVER 8G
11/17/05 $36,000 35,596 SILVER 8G

2004 
Make: VOLKSWAGEN 
Model: PHAETON V12 
Style: 4D SEDAN 

Date Price Mileage Color Eng
11/22/05 $48,600 14,043 BLACK 12G
11/22/05 $47,700 13,004 BLACK 12G
11/17/05 $48,000 19,820 BLACK 12G
11/10/05 $40,500 31,662 BLACK 12G
10/25/05 $51,100 1,941 BLACK 12G
10/25/05 $46,100 17,097 BLACK 12G 

2005 
Make: VOLKSWAGEN 
Model: PHAETON V8 
Style: 4D SEDAN 


Date Price Mileage Color Eng
11/17/05 $42,700 19,799 BLACK 8G
10/25/05 $42,100 12,146 BLACK 8G
10/20/05 $46,500 13,035 SILVER 8G
10/13/05 $49,250 4,205 Above BROWN 8G
09/15/05 $46,500 3,186 Above MAROON 8G
09/15/05 $46,250 3,037 Above MAROON 8G 

Compare to Audi A8.
Make: AUDI 
Model: A8 
Style: 4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 
Year: 2004 

REPORTED WHOLESALE AUCTION SALES - With Exact Matches Type Miles Price Sale date Auction Engine TR Cond Color Sample

4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 9,349 $53,250 11/17/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 20,047 $52,500 11/14/05 8G A Abv SILVER
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 11,374 $52,250 11/10/05 8G SILVER Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 22,644 $52,000 11/14/05 8G BLUE Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 10,995 $52,000 11/17/05 8G BLACK
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 11,624 $50,750 11/17/05 8G BLACK Y 
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 18,836 $50,000 11/23/05 8G A Avg SILVER
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 6,174 $49,750 11/10/05 8G GRAY
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 25,319 $49,500 11/22/05 8G GREY
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 20,224 $48,500 11/22/05 8G BLUE
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 14,925 $48,000 11/22/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 23,633 $47,800 11/16/05 8G BLACK
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 9,702 $47,500 11/22/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 18,627 $47,400 11/22/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 16,834 $46,800 11/03/05 8G BLUE
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 11,400 $46,800 11/17/05 8G GRAY
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 28,314 $46,600 11/17/05 8G SILVER
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 9,066 $46,400 11/03/05 8G GRAY
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 28,588 $45,600 11/10/05 8G BLACK
4D SEDAN L 4.2L QUATTRO 18,394 $45,500 11/17/05 8G GRAY

_Modified by Kcmover at 8:13 AM 12-1-2005_



_Modified by Paldi at 1:18 PM 11-10-2006_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*December*

Seems like the number of vehicles listed are down and the miles are up.
I heard there are none left in Canada!

_Modified by Paldi at 9:52 PM 11-7-2006_


_Modified by Paldi at 10:04 PM 11-7-2006_


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: December auction lists (Paldi)*

Can you tell if the prices are changing? Have they stopped falling , Leveled out, rising?
I for one want the Phaeton to start being the best Car for $150k. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: December auction lists (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_I heard there are none left in Canada!

Correct, no new, untitled ones left, although quite a few VW dealers still have their service loaner Phaetons or Phaeton demos available for sale.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: December auction lists (GripperDon)*

There were five listed in a special "buy it now" section. Two '04s with under 20k miles were listed at $41,000 and a low miles one for $50,000. Since the dealer markup is usually say, 10 percent, I think things are holding pretty steady. Values have been dropping about $1,000 per month and that appears still to be the case.


_Modified by Paldi at 9:37 PM 11-7-2006_


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: December auction lists (Paldi)*

Thanks, Don


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Paging Chris*

This is the only W12 near Chicago coming up. Sorry not a black interior. See The Dentist for that!











_Modified by Paldi at 9:38 PM 11-7-2006_


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## mkerr (Dec 12, 2005)

could you translate the items in the "announcements" field? What does "CBB" and "/NO START/" mean?
Also, how do you know what's coming up at auction? I've got some relatives with dealerships in the CHI area and I'm wondering if they would be able to go to auction for me. Just a thought.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (mkerr)*

CBB likely means company buy back and the reason it was bought back may have been due to a starting problem, or maybe the car won't start now. It's hard to know. 
Good luck and happy bidding!










_Modified by Paldi at 9:39 PM 11-7-2006_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Paging Chris (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_This is the only W12 near Chicago coming up.

Shotgun! I got first dibs!!!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_CBB likely means company buy back and the reason it was bought back may have been due to a starting problem, or maybe the car won't start now. It's hard to know. 

Do keep in mind that there are 50 different sets of rules for buybacks in the United States, and some states permit buybacks if it has taken more than 30 days to resolve a problem. So, you can have a situation in which an owner complains that his floormat has a fuzz-ball on it, and if VW cannot get the replacement floormat installed within 30 days, the owner can press for a buyback. Obviously, I'm exaggerating for clarity here.
The point I am trying to make, though, is that whatever problem existed might have been fully solved by now, but it took longer than 30 days to solve it, and the owner chose to have the car bought back. I can easily see a situation where an electrical problem arising from the 'B vs. C' battery management controller upgrade might have taken more than 30 days to sort out. In such a case, there would be nothing whatsoever wrong with the car now, but it would go on record that the car was bought back.
I've said before that I would have no hesitation in purchasing a 'buyback' Phaeton anytime, anywhere. We all know that the car is very carefully built, and generally problem free. What tends to cause buybacks is a situation where a dealership does not have the experience needed to solve a simple problem correctly the first time around.
Michael


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## mkerr (Dec 12, 2005)

*any new data (Chicago)*

I'm sure I'm not alone in breathlessly waiting for the latest updates an auction info from Paldi and kcmover (and others, I'm sure). I also wanted to thank you folks for putting the info on the forum, and to thank everyone for making this community what it is. Normally, I'd be really (REALLY) heistant to buy a high-end vehicle that's being discontinued, but the info available here is giving me the confidence to go for it.
Anyway, I'm ready to take the plunge (finally) and I'm actively hunting. Anything coming up in the *Chicago area auctions*? I have the option of getting something from one of the area auctions, although I'm thinking it might be smarter to buy a certifed pre-owned for the extra 25k of warranty and the VW financing.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re:*

In case anyone would like to reference Audi A8L auction prices here is the link. http://www.audiworld.com/forum/a8d3.html
As you will notice the prices are very similar to the '04 Phaeton used prices.
Thank you Fred.
Recent auction sold prices for 2004 A8Ls
Date Price Mileage Color Eng Trans
12/21/05 $46,200 20,304 SILVER 8G
12/21/05 $38,500 32,583 BLACK 8G
12/20/05 $49,250 19,017 BLACK 8G
12/20/05 $47,500 30,141 BLACK 8G
12/20/05 $46,750 25,931 BLACK 8G
12/20/05 $45,500 28,899 BLACK 8G
12/20/05 $45,000 30,066 GREY 8G
12/15/05 $49,000 24,084 SILVER 8G
12/15/05 $44,600 12,831 SILVER 8G
12/15/05 $44,500 14,199 BLUE 8G
12/15/05 $44,500 9,340 SILVER 8G
12/15/05 $44,000 41,425 BLUE 8G
12/15/05 $43,750 39,950 SILVER 8G
12/15/05 $41,750 63,089 BLACK 8G
12/15/05 $37,700 61,481 SILVER 8G
12/14/05 $44,200 16,255 GRAY 8G
12/14/05 $43,500 26,602 BLACK 8G 



_Modified by Paldi at 10:35 PM 11-8-2006_


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## StevenSH (Apr 18, 2005)

*recent 05 at auto auction*

Last week an 05 silver Phaeton w/ 13,833 went for $41,600.
I concur, these cars are the best bang for the buck!


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*2004 on ebay with no reserve*

Ebay auction no reserve on a 2004 ending today 
22,000 miles Burgandy in color. 
Will be interesting to watch.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem
Current bidding at $40,101
currently 14 different bidders.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

Looks loaded. $42,500 would be my guess. That interior is black, not gray.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*

Hi Fred:
Just a note to say 'thanks' for all the effort you put into keeping up the resale pricing record. It really is a useful resource for all of us.
Michael


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*High mileage one in Chicago.....*

Highest mileage one set to go thru Chicago on the 12th.
2004 W12
Color: BLACK/TAN 
Mileage: 64,587 



_Modified by Paldi at 11:45 AM 11-11-2006_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: High mileage one in Chicago..... (Kcmover)*

Auctions are hoppin this week. Now six on the block!



_Modified by Paldi at 9:43 PM 11-7-2006_


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: High mileage one in Chicago..... (Paldi)*

Do you think these are coming off 2 yr leases? I'll be interested to see what kind of prices they bring!


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: High mileage one in Chicago..... (murphybaileysam)*

I think that most if not all of them are coming off of two year leases. The next 24 months should be very interesting. It would be fun to track auction vehicles by serial number to the resellers on ebay and see how much margin they actually get on reselling Phaetons.
By the way....The high mile 12 Cyl in chicago sold at auction:
Black 64,587 mi for $34,000 on 01/12/06

_Modified by Kcmover at 10:57 AM 1-17-2006_



_Modified by Paldi at 11:47 AM 11-11-2006_


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: High mileage one in Chicago..... (Kcmover)*

That's a lot of miles for a 2 year old car. Where are most of the ones that come off leases auctioned? I know Mannheim has several locations. BMW and Saab Financial sell most of theirs at the Milwaukee auction. I would like to pick up a low mileage W12 4 Seater if I could find one at the RIGHT price. My preference would be a black with tan interior. I think that is the color combination they made the most.
Hope to see all the Phaeton Phanatics at the Chicago GTG next month!


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## petey1099 (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: High mileage one in Chicago..... (murphybaileysam)*

Most that are going thru Central Florida are company demos. 
the 2 w12s are buy backs and 1 8 is a lease the others are company demos.
The Arena cars were almost all company cars. I purchased one for a customer, it was in showroom condition like new.
David


----------



## culverwood (May 20, 2005)

*Re: UK Prices*

Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2003	9,635* Blue £20,995
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2003	14,980* Purple £20,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2003	14,980* Purple £20,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 Auto-Tiptronic 4-Dr Saloon 2003	12,000* Blue £22,750
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2003	23,000* Grey £22,995
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2003	20,213* Green £22,995
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2004	15,200* Black £23,950
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2004	11,000* Grey £23,950
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon Tiptronic 2004	14,514* Grey £23,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	5,400* Blue £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	12,300* Blue £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	11,273* Black £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2005	3,263* Black £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	4,917* Blue £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2005	13,837* Black £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	5,400* Blue £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	12,300* Blue £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	11,273* Black £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2005	3,263* Black £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	4,917* Blue £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2005	13,837* Black £24,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	16,500* Silver £25,495
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2004	7,000* Silver £26,999
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2004	17,791* Silver £27,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	10,500* Black £28,999
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	15,010* Black £29,950
Phaeton 6.0 W12 4MOTION 4-Dr Saloon 2003	18,096* Black £29,995
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	6,000* Black £29,995
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	7,000* Grey £29,995
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4-Dr Saloon 2004	14,783* Grey £29,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	6,750* Silver £29,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	5,500* Silver £31,495
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	14,275* Grey £31,995
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	11,350* Blue £32,950
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	3,840* Black £32,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	1,765* Blue £32,995
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Tiptr 2004	13,219* Silver £32,999
Phaeton 6.0 W12 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	15,495* Black £32,999
Phaeton 6.0 W12 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	15,495* Black £32,999
Phaeton 6.0 W12 4MOTION 4-Dr Saloon 2003	9,900* Black £33,000
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion LWB 4-Dr Saloon 2004	11,426* Black £33,999
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion LWB 4-Dr Saloon 2004	11,426* Black £33,999
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	14,000* Silver £34,495
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	999* Silver £34,500
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion LWB 4-Dr Saloon 2004	16,475* Grey £34,950
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion LWB 4-Dr Saloon 2004	14,085* Grey £34,950
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	25,188* Blue £34,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	9,300* Black £34,995
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	5,450* Black £34,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	2,000* Blue £34,995
Phaeton 3.2 V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	7,500* Black £34,995
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion LWB 4-Dr Saloon 2004	9,810* Blue £35,950
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	2,950* Silver £35,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	9,101* Black £36,995
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	40,000* Black £37,995
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2004	10,062* Grey £39,495
Phaeton 3.0 TDI V6 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	2,000* Grey £41,995
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	3,000* Grey £43,990
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	11,165* Blue £54,995
Phaeton 5.0 TDI V10 4 Motion 4-Dr Saloon 2005	11,165* Blue £54,995


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: UK Prices (culverwood)*

Thanks for the information. That's a lot of cars. How many months/years of data is that? Are they used auction prices, new sale prices, something else?
How do we convert pounds to dollars?


----------



## culverwood (May 20, 2005)

*Re: UK Prices (Paldi)*

That is the current list of used-car retail prices at all VW distributors in the UK.
William


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: UK Prices (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_How do we convert pounds to dollars?

£1 = about USD $1.80, more or less.
Be aware, when comparing prices, that it is possible to get a very thinly equipped Phaeton in Europe - for example, many of the 3.2 litre Phaetons listed above are SWB front wheel drive only, unless '4Motion' has been specified.
Michael


----------



## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Did anyone get the sale results from the Central Florida Auction on Jan 20th? I am going to try to get the results of any Phaetons sold at the Chicago Manheim Auction that VW -Audi Financial run their cars through.


----------



## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton Auction prices (Paldi)*

Sure would like to see January's Phaeton auction prices. Hope you keep sharing this valuable information!


----------



## petey1099 (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: Central Florida 1/20/06 Phaeton Auction prices (audivwguy)*

The w12 was a buyback, it would have brought more had it not been a repurchase. 
There are fewer available. I think the price will hold for the next few mos. The 2004s are about all gone, I am starting to see a few 2005's.( I am talking about vw company demos)


----------



## sergeic (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Central Florida 1/20/06 Phaeton Auction prices (petey1099)*

These prices look really tempting...esp. the 04 W12 high mileage in Chicago. I've been a lurker on this forum for quite some time. Now I'm finally getting serious to buy one of these beauties. I just wonder if most people here know some relatives who can help them out bidding in these auctions? cuz...I don't. I wonder if there's anyone who can help me out...for a % of the final price, to get a car from Manheim in Chicago (Bolingbrook). Thanks for the very informative posts!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Central Florida 1/20/06 Phaeton Auction prices (petey1099)*


_Quote, originally posted by *petey1099* »_The w12 was a buyback, it would have brought more had it not been a repurchase. 

For the record - no-one should ever have the slightest concern about picking up a Phaeton that has been branded with a 'buyback' title. 90% of the buybacks in North America have been caused by one of two reasons:
*1)* Dealer did not know how to solve a problem correctly the first time. _(this is a training issue, it can be solved by choosing the correct dealer in the first place)_
*2)* Customer decided to take advantage of buyback legislation to get rid of a car. _(this borders on fraud, and is no fault of the car)_
In Continental Europe, there have been 6 buybacks in 4 years. The car itself is extraordinarily carefully built. I would pick up a North American buyback Phaeton, sight unseen, without any hesitation at all.
Michael


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Coming to auction March 30th*

Only one Phaeton - with "one" miles. We used to have 30 at a time. 



_Modified by Paldi at 9:46 PM 11-7-2006_


----------



## amgc36 (Mar 19, 2006)

*Re: Coming to auction March 30th (Paldi)*

Hi,
Thanks for all the information. I have just recently come across this site but it is proving very useful.
With respect to the car listed on March 30th, can someone explain the options on the car coming up on March 30th? Also, your note said W12 but the listing seems to say V8. I'm in southern California and may be interested in this car if I can find out more information. 
Thanks! - William


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Coming to auction March 30th (amgc36)*

Hi William:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum.
We have very little information about vehicles that are going through the auction lanes. In other words, the only information we have is what the auction service provides in the listing (as shown above). Generally speaking, these auctions are only open to automobile dealers, individuals cannot participate in them.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Coming to auction March 30th (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_VIN: WVWAF63D448009280 

Coucou Grey over Anthracite with Eucalyptus
V8
DSP
Comfort & Cold Weather


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Coming to auction March 30th (Paldi)*

Fred, I saw that too. I bet it has more miles and that is just a typo. Look at the overall condition report. I bet it gets corrected before the auction date.


----------



## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: (Paldi)*

Good work as usual, Fred
Is there any way to tell if the Black W12's are Premier Edition? If they are all Premier, then that seems like a lot of cars appearing for the 300 cars imported.


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (Jack Orr)*

Most 2004 W12s I have seen were premier editions, but I have not seen many (about 8).


----------



## petey1099 (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: (dzier)*

You need to break out the buy backs. This will give you a false feel for the market. The w12's were almost all buy backs. This should take at least 7k to 8k off the value.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (petey1099)*

One has a bent frame and suspension damage, it's a bank repo:

2004 VW PHAETON - RED
VIN: WVWAF63D948008884 



_Modified by Paldi at 9:22 PM 11-7-2006_


----------



## jimay (Aug 1, 2006)

*Re: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_
*2004 V8s*
04/27/06 $33,000 23,091 BLACK


Hey! I just bought that car! Right date, right location, right mileage, wrong color (blue)
Two quick questions
1. Is there more info from the source quoted in your post regarding this vehicle?
2. What does (dare I ask) the word "Below" mean?
Thanks!
_Modified by jimay at 8:44 AM 8-1-2006_


_Modified by Paldi at 10:10 PM 11-8-2006_


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (jimay)*

Below average condition - perhaps due to milage


_Modified by Paldi at 9:28 PM 11-7-2006_


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

I see 2004 Phaetons advertised for sale prices from 32K for V8 and 39K for W12, mileage seems to not be consistent with prices.... I have seen V8 and W12 sale prices for 2004 be as high as the 50's for both (unrealistic). The data is so scattered, I am glad I like the car and am not planing to do anything for a while.


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: The latest - off lease Phaetons! (Paldi)*

Here is some data on '04 V8 sales. A lot of these cars showed prior accident repairs in the pre-inspection reports,which certainly contributed to lower sale prices. As you can see, Aubergine gets called many things.
Date Price Miles Cond/Color
10/12/06 $36,250 11,285 Avg BLACK 8G A 
10/03/06 $27,500 33,751 Below MAROON 8G A
09/29/06 $29,500 57,477 Below Grey 8G A 
09/27/06 $20,400 30,072 Below MAROONE 8G A 
09/26/06 $33,400 11,219 Avg PURPLE 8G A 
08/30/06 $30,800 24,405 Below BURGANDY 8G A


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: The latest - off lease Phaetons! (Stinky999)*

The upcoming low miles lease returns should fare well. I wonder what dealers will pick them up?


_Modified by Paldi at 9:32 PM 11-7-2006_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: The latest - off lease Phaetons! (Paldi)*

Hi Fred:
As always, many thanks for doing all the research to keep us up to date.
Michael


----------



## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: The latest - off lease Phaetons! (Paldi)*

I have seen a few very low milage cars come into the auctions, but the pre auction inspection report shows prior accident repair. Once the auction closes, you can't get the inspection reports. This is why you see some low milage cars going for what seems like bargain prices. I have also seen a few of these cars show up later on Ebay with no mention of the prior repairs (imagine that?).


_Modified by Paldi at 9:59 PM 11-8-2006_


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: The latest - off lease Phaetons! (Stinky999)*

I have tracked a few thru and appreciate the inspection reports. But your right about them no longer being available. I guess that if your targeting a car you could download and save the reports. 
Nine Cars being sold at auction this week:
View 2006 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V12 4D SEDAN W12 6,990 LTBLUMET/GRY

2004 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 61,043 BLACK/BEI 
2004 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 26,874 BLUEMET/GRY 

2005 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 18,647 GRAY/GRY 

2006 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 14,053 GREY/GRY 
2004 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V12 4D SEDAN W12 5,941 BLUE/GRY 
2004 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 40,085 SILVER/GRY 
2006 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 14,062 BLACK/TAN 

2004 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 28,499 SILVER/GRY 




_Modified by Paldi at 10:07 PM 11-8-2006_


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: The latest - off lease Phaetons! (Stinky999)*

I also like to run them thru CarFax when I have a Subscription to it. Helps when your targeting a Phaeton or some other car.


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: The latest - off lease Phaetons! (Kcmover)*

Yes, that's exactly what I did. You could match up the sale date/mileage on Carfax with the sales on Manheim. In many cases, I knew exactly when the dealer bought it and what they paid. 
I remember one of these cars (Aubergine) with prior accident damage was for sale on Ebay. As I looked at the photos, I realized that they had repaired it with a 2005 grill (the car was a 2004). That certainly seemed to confirm the report indicating previous repair to the hood and both front fenders. As I said before, there was no mention of repair in the listing. Caveat emptor!


_Modified by Paldi at 10:09 PM 11-8-2006_


----------



## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: The latest - sold auction Phaetons! (Paldi)*

This appears to be the car I was contacted about by my salesman at Autobarn. He originally told me it was an '06 but when I checked the VIN it appeared to be an '04. Miles seem awfully low for an '04 though. Had repair work done on the hood and rear bumper and the battery was dead. I should have a chance to see the car in the next few days, so if anyone wants any information on it I will be glad to let them know what I find out.
It's Antibes Blue with gray interior. I know Autobarn will detail it to the nines so it looks brand new. You would think they would be willing to sell the car for a couple thousand more than they have in it for a quick sale, but you never know. I think they feel there are only a few bidders for these because of the NAR situation, and since they have a pretty big following around the country they pretty much can control the auction price. I guessed the car would sell for somewhere in the mid to high 40's.


----------



## petermueller (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: The latest - sold auction Phaetons! (murphybaileysam)*

A really nice Phaeton just sold on ebay for $47000. It was a 2006 five seater-no options but under 5000 miles!


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: The latest - sold auction Phaetons! (murphybaileysam)*

Jay,
You can have that one, but -- everyone -- hands-off the 2004 W12 five-seater with 40xxx miles on it. I already called dibs and have someone working on it for me (just need to get down there & lick the door handle).










_Modified by Paldi at 6:38 PM 11-20-2006_


----------



## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: The latest - sold auction Phaetons! (murphybaileysam)*

I'm not surprised. I watched dealers sit on cars for months trying to get big bucks. I'm not an expert on running a car dealership, but it would seem to me that you should try to turn over your inventory as quickly as possible. Get your 10-15% as quickly as possible so you can reinvest in more cars and another 10-15%, and so on, and so on. Letting your capital sit on the lot for 5-6 mos does not help, even if it net's you 20-25%. You probably could have turned that money over two or three more time in that time frame. Well, I guess I don't care now. I'm happy.


----------



## pirateat50 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: The latest - sold auction Phaetons! (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
. . . hands-off the 2004 W12 five-seater with 40xxx miles on it. I already called dibs and have someone working on it for me (just need to get down there & lick the door handle).









Good Luck, Chris!


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

Then there's retail!
Here's a link to what is being asked for Pheatons today...
http://www.cars.com/go/search/...=msn#


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

These Phaetons are coming soon to an auction near Chicago. Note the low miles.

2004 PHAETON W12 4D 605 SILVER 
WVWBH63D448006927
2004 PHAETON W12 2,560 SILVER
WVWBH63D148006979 
2004 PHAETON V8 3,560 BLUE
WVWAF63D748006650 
2004 PHAETON V8 2,658 SILVER
WVWAF63D648007126
2004 PHAETON V8 8,590 SILVER
WVWAF63D048006652
2004 PHAETON V8 9,812 SILVER 
WVWAF63D948006648 
2006 PHAETON V8 7,172 BLACK
WVWBF03D168003182



_Modified by Paldi at 9:10 AM 11-12-2006_


----------



## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

My 2004 Silver/Black 25K miles will be back in the market by the end of this week.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (bobm)*

So, where is it and how much do they want? Does it have footrests in the back?


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## vipa (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: (Paldi)*

Hi,
I am intending to buy a (V8) VW Phaeton this year and I am inquiring about a 800Mi (!) one (found on "cars.com" web site). Is this millage realistic? Any suggestion will be more than welcome!
Vipa


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (vipa)*

Sure it's possible. There's a W12 a few posts up with only 605 miles.


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## vipa (Nov 20, 2006)

Forgot to mention that the car is a 2004 one!


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (vipa)*

I recommend you get some eyeballs on that car if you want it. Perhaps you can locate a Forum member who lives nearby?


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Several VW Company cars are going through the auction tomorrow. I think they are trying to beat the influx of lease returns which should start hitting over the next several months.
The last two V8s on Paldi's list (a few posts up) that are marked silver are actually Papillon Silver, a much different color than the normal Silver.
It should be interesting to see where these cars end up and at what prices.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *murphybaileysam* »_The last two V8s on Paldi's list (a few posts up) that are marked silver are actually Papillon Silver, a much different color than the normal Silver.

Great Steve! That's another reason to go see the car or send a knowledgeable representative.


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## vipa (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: (Paldi)*

This is the VW 2004, V8 car that I need sombody's help in having some hints...
"Mileage: VW 2004, V8, 800 Body Style: Sedan Exterior Color: Silver Interior Color: Black VIN: WVWAF63D048007154" 
Dealer location is 1118 MT. VERNON ROAD Newark, OH 430.
This site and its moderator (Michael) convinced me to (at least try) have it!
Any other V8 suggestion welcomed!


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

In a mid-November PA auction a Black 2006 V8 with 15k miles brought $45,200.


----------



## chesrownnewark (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (Paldi)*

I would purchase the 800 mile car







It is sitting on my lot ready to go. Don't miss it for $2000.
David Chesrown


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chesrownnewark)*

Hi David:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum, it's nice to have you here. Maybe we should say (tongue in cheek) _"Don't miss selling it for $2,000" _








Michael


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## chesrownnewark (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

His offer is $2000 short of purchasing the car. I have another for $38000 it has 21600 miles- to get a like new car cost only a little more-$42995.

David
Happy Thanksgiving


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (chesrownnewark)*

Feel free to post a few photos of it, if you want.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

My friend Ming gave the following results:
2004 PHAETON W12 4D 605 SILVER 
WVWBH63D448006927 $55,000
2004 PHAETON W12 2,560 SILVER
WVWBH63D148006979 No Sale
2004 PHAETON V8 3,560 BLUE
WVWAF63D748006650 $38,300
2004 PHAETON V8 2,658 SILVER
WVWAF63D648007126 $40,100
2004 PHAETON V8 8,590 SILVER
WVWAF63D048006652 $42,200
2004 PHAETON V8 9,812 SILVER 
WVWAF63D948006648 $38,000
2006 PHAETON V8 7,172 BLACK
WVWBF03D168003182 $55,600
One would think with typical dealer mark up, a good low miles 2004 V8 should retail for somewhere in the mid to high $40's. Perhaps more if being sold by a really great dealership that can add value to the transaction.


----------



## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: (Paldi)*

As always, good job Fred. These just sold Tuesday and you already have the prices posted. Thank your friend Ming (the merciless?) for his help too.
Next month the first of the lease returns should be hitting the market. It will be interesting to see both where they are sent to be sold as well as what they are priced at.
Happy Thanksgiving to all who read Fred's Used Phaeton Market Report!


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## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: (Paldi) W12 4 seats*

That 04 silver mirror 4 seat is now being offered at retail for $69,000.
What slays me is the uneven and irrational pricing on used Phaetons, and the uniform lack of product knowledge that I've been seeing. Cars advertised with equipment and paint that they do not have, one W12 with V8 only wheels, the total used car sales experience.
Of course, these issues are not endemic to the Phaeton. 
The black 06 W12 4 seat that's new and untitled - they're asking sticker. By my calculations, that car will lose $50,000 in value in the first 16 months. That's $104.77 a day plus insurance, maintenance and fuel to drive the car.
The prices being asked seem to bear no relationship to other, similar product, and no relationship to actual selling prices. 
Earlier today, I answered an email from a VW salesman who's peddling a W12 4 seat (which is what I'm holding out for.) 
My reply:
I've concluded that the market for a W12 Phaeton 4-seat is without logic 
or reason. I've found an 06 CPO for $79,999. Yours at sticker. 
Another at $89,000. An 04 with 700 (for real) miles on it for $69,000. 
And 04 CPO with 7500 for $56,000. Two are advertised as Papillon Silver Helichrome, but are really Silver Mirror. No one knows what it is that they really have, and those that do charge 30% more. 

And my auction/market research shows that all of these prices are an 
invitation for me to pay from $16,000 to $45,000 for the first year of 
driving. 

My decision for today is to have a big martini and think about this 
further later. 
The martini isn't helping.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Early November PA auction had one Phaeton*

2004 V8 Black 219XX Miles Sold for $44,500 
Now, that's not bad for an auction price on a 2004 V8 with middling miles.


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## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Early November PA auction had one Phaeton (Paldi)*

Keep your eyes on a 2004 silver/black with only $25k miles vin # WVWAF63D248008158. I turned it in two weeks ago and the car is in perfect shape, or at least was.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Early November PA auction had one Phaeton (bobm)*

That would be the one with the spinning VW emblem? Maybe it will be disclosed in the vehicle condition report!








Do you expect it to go to auction as a lease return? That's my take.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi) W12 4 seats (DrDivo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DrDivo* »_. 

My decision for today is to have a big martini and think about this 
further later. 
The martini isn't helping.


The market is in flux. Who knows what these cars are worth? You mention those that know the car ask a 30 percent premium. The market may be heading that way, to the cheers of current owners. When you find the right car for you, you will know it. Be ready to jump all over it.
There are a half a dozen coming up for auction in PA this week. They all have 30-60k miles on them. The ones sold out of the Chicago auction recently all had less than 15k miles and were cream puffs. How can you compare?


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: (Paldi)*

I think another auction for the VW/Audi Financials may be coming up in Chicago again in about a week. Any info on listings? I think the lease returns should be starting unless they decide to hold them over 'til after the first of the year. 
In the meantime I've been tracking the Fed Ex delivery of my 1:18 die cast model from Whitier California.







Estimated time of delivery is next Wednesday and I'm thinking it may be an exact match of the full size one in my garage! Boy do I need a life!!


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

I have seen loaded V8 Phaetons 2004 with 35K miles going for lower 30's (retail - not wholesale or auction) these days. That is about a 7K drop in the last 5 months. I guess that has to do with the lack of a 2007 model and the model year change? The prices were relatively flat for a while.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (dzier)*

A blue and a gray, auctioned in the Chicago area this week.
2004 Gray V8 34,700 mi $29200 
2004 Blue V8 30,000 mi. $31200 
And a 12er in PA.
2004 Black W12 52,000 mi $33500 
and three 8's.
2004 Maroon V8 27600 mi $27600 
2004 Silver V8 56,700 mi $26300 
2004 Silver V8 50,970 mi $26300 
Sorry, no details on condition or VINs


_Modified by Paldi at 9:48 AM 1-27-2007_


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Just imagine a perfect 2005 V8 with only 3460 miles on it? in 2 more years when the mileage is still less than 8,000 and it's still perfect AND getting more rare and the reintroduced Phaeton II is a shrunken shadow of the former glory? PS with the added Refrigerator and Aux audio In.










_Modified by GripperDon at 12:12 AM 1-27-2007_


----------



## reneestreg (May 25, 2005)

*Re: (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_Just imagine a perfect 2005 V8 with only 3460 miles on it? in 2 more years when the mileage is still less than 8,000 and it's still perfect AND getting more rare and the reintroduced Phaeton II is a shrunken shadow of the former glory? PS with the added Refrigerator and Aux audio In.









_Modified by GripperDon at 12:12 AM 1-27-2007_

probably be worth something in the 20's. You will have to keep your phaeton in good shape for 40 or more years for it to be worth a lot of money. I do really feel that the Phaeton will be valuable someday but not anytime soon.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you?*

2004 W12 29,344 Mi. BLACK/TAN Riverside CA. 03/01/07
Volkswagen Credit 

2004 W12 51,727 Mi. BLACK/BLK Toronto 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit

2004 W12 28,454 Mi. BLACK/TAN Chicago 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit

2006 W12 12,972 Mi. BLUE/BLK Pennsylvania 02/22/07
Exotic Sale 

2004 V8 21,264 Mi. SILVER/GRY Chicago 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit

2004 V8 36,129 Mi. BLACK/TAN Chicago 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit 

2005 V8 28,003 Mi. BLACK/GRY Dallas Ft. Worth 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit 

2005 V8 17,460 Mi. BLACK/TAN Riverside CA. 03/01/07
Volkswagen of America 

2005 V8 4,765 Mi. SILVER/BLK Riverside CA. 03/01/07
Volkswagen Credit


----------



## jlturpin (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_
2004 W12 28,454 Mi. BLACK/TAN Chicago 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit

2004 V8 36,129 Mi. BLACK/TAN Chicago 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit 

2005 V8 28,003 Mi. BLACK/GRY Dallas Ft. Worth 02/20/07
Volkswagen Credit 

2005 V8 4,765 Mi. SILVER/BLK Riverside CA. 03/01/07
Volkswagen Credit


Can you get more information on these?


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (jlturpin)*

Check your email! The silver one is listed as "frame" in the disclosure. Not a good thing.


----------



## carlosMIA (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (Paldi)*

Hi Fred,
I want to buy a 2005 or preferable 2006 Phaeton. Where can I get info on ALL the auctions. Those from VW Financial ate they exclusive for VW dealers? or just any dealer? can a private person participate? Can I get VIN ahead of the auction? 
Are Phaetons sold at auctions in Florida?
Thanks, Carlos


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (carlosMIA)*

Where can I get info on ALL the auctions. 
My recommendation is to enter into an agreement with a used car dealer you trust, who will go to the Florida auction and submit bid for you. He/she can also search all locations at the same time.
Those from VW Financial - are they exclusive for VW dealers or just any dealer? 
I believe they are restricted to VW but am not absolutely sure about that.
Can a private person participate? 
No, you have to be a car dealer to buy at these auctions. There are auctions open to the public, but it's extreemely unlikely you will run across a Phaeton.
Can I get VIN ahead of the auction? 
Sure you can. No problem.
Are Phaetons sold at auctions in Florida?
Yes, there is a Central Florida Auto Auction that will run Phaetons through from time to time. It's not the biggest. Chicago Arena, Manheim Pennsylvania and Riverside California sell the most.



_Modified by Paldi at 9:09 PM 2-18-2007_


----------



## osu s2k (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (Paldi)*

I have a good friend (Dealer) who is willing to go to the Columbus ohio Mannheim auction and pick up a car. I was set on a 2005+ audi a8, however a w12 phaeton, doesnt sound half bad.. How much premium will the audi get, will any phaetons be going through columbus, and could he just do an online bid. thanks.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (osu s2k)*

I remember seeing a W12 go through an Ohio auction last year. It was owned by 5th-3rd Bank.
At present I have no knowledge about Audi wholesale/retail markup. Sorry, I just don't follow anything excepth Phaetons.
Have your friend log into Manheim's website and check availability on a weekly basis at least. Usually there is only about a week, two at most between when the cars are posted and the auction dates. As of yeaterday, the 9 cars listed above were all there is coming up. If you find one you like, your friend can bid on it on-line. He doesn't have to physically go to the auction to make a bid.


----------



## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (Paldi)*

Any prices on yesterday's Chicago Arena auction yet?
I have a feeling the car Jonathan is interested in at the Crystal Lake dealer was the one that went at the PA. auction in January for $33,000. It was the same color combo and the same mileage which would be a pretty good coincidence if they were different!


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (murphybaileysam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *murphybaileysam* »_Any prices on yesterday's Chicago Arena auction yet?


My Chicago spy says..
2004 BLK W12 28,454 Mi. $40,600 
2004 SILV V8 21,264 Mi. $23,300 
2004 BLK V8 36,129 Mi. $31,600


----------



## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (Paldi)*

Thanks Fred
That Silver one must have been a real dog to go for that much less than the black one with 15,000 fewer miles. Either that or the bidders fell asleep during that part of the auction. I did notice that they were VW Credit cars so I assume we'll be seeing more lease returns in the coming auctions.
Keep up the good "espionage work" and thank your "spies" too!










_Modified by murphybaileysam at 6:21 PM 2-21-2007_


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## BC2007 (Jan 24, 2007)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (Paldi)*

what were the options/ vin of the 04 V8 that went for 23k??


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (BC2007)*

Sorry, that info is not available; after the auction closes, the car is gone! It was probably a base car with issues like paint work, suspension or even interior concerns. Might clean up like new though. That's why the dealers get their markup.


----------



## roxhayes (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: End of February - March 1st auction lists. Coming to a dealer near you? (Paldi)*

Hello,
I'm new to the forum. I am interested in purchasing a 2004-2005 Phaeton. I live in Florida but have friend in NW Indiana, near the Chicago auction with a dealer's license. Is there anything you can tell me about the best place to aquire one? -rh2-


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction*

2005 W12
VIN: WVWAH03D458001978 
Color: TAN/GRY (Anthracite black)
Mileage: 14,416 

Announcements: CO. CAR, PPW 
Sale Date: 03/20/07 
It's reported to be in "rough" condition due to some dents and bumper gouges. All likely to be easily repairable. A Rare color combination on a W12!











_Modified by Paldi at 5:02 PM 3-4-2007_


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## osu s2k (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (Paldi)*

I was at mannheim today and there was one v8 and one w12. the v8 i think went for mid twenties, it wasnt perfect, the w12 i was interested in until seeing the interior, looked a little rough around the edges despite the mileage. I will be curious what it ends up going for. Nobody was even looking at it, and my friend who owns a dealership, didnt even know what it was. definitely a unique car.
I have to admit, i think the VW with an audi badge would look a bit better than the A8L. 
I, however, ended up with a 2004 A8L, I liked the interior better, there were 8 that went through auction today and its hard to argue with the significant weight savings of the aluminum frame.
thanks for your help.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (osu s2k)*


_Quote, originally posted by *osu s2k* »_
I, however, ended up with a 2004 A8L, I liked the interior better, there were 8 that went through auction today and its hard to argue with the significant weight savings of the aluminum frame.
thanks for your help.

The Phae has a superior interior... that aluminum framed the A8 has been oft-criticized as riding as if it has flat wheels.
One of the things that makes the Phaeton "great" is that VW (makers of cheap cars) made it, a fine, luxury car - and they pulled it off, the first time, getting nearly everything right! What a leap! 
That they refused to allow people to take photos inside the glass factory was the first hint of an early failure to capitalize on their achievement. 


_Modified by Paldi at 4:44 PM 3-14-2007_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_The Phae has a superior interior... that aluminum frame the A8 has been oft-criticized as riding as if it has flat wheels.

Audi interiors are considered my many as among the best in their class. I think they are very well done. I haven't seen one that wasn't tastefully done and didn't use very nice materials.
I haven't driven an A8, but every review I've read has complemeted the ride and handling. It's not a boat, but who wants to drive a boat?


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## osu s2k (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (car_guy)*

The majority of car mags (not that i believe everything they write) will rank the a8 over the phaeton. 
THe phaeton is most likely going to be a rare beast whereas I frequently see the big audi in town. I only know of one phaeton in columbus that i see on a regular basis, otherwise a rare find. 
Paldi, what are phaeton numbers?


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## noahas (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (osu s2k)*

3259 in the US in total, minus whatever have been destroyed.


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## osu s2k (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (noahas)*

Ill be curious what the w12 went for at the columbus mannheim auction


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (osu s2k)*

Actually the Ohio auction isn't located in Columbus. Here's a W12 and a V8 that went a couple of days ago in Ohio
2004 BLACK 12 Gas 39,493 MI. $38,200 
2004 SILVER 8 Gas 68,106 MI. $22,200


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (Paldi)*

It seems that the numbers are really dropping on these auctions. I guess not having a 2007 is really hurting big time.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (Paldi)*

Fred, thanks again for all those price updates, they are really appreciated by everyone, me included.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Late March/early April listings*

2004 V12 4D SEDAN 47,891 BLACK/BEI Penna. 04/05/07
Volkswagen Credit WVWAH63D048008024
* SOLD: $32,900 *

2004 V8 4D SEDAN 81,356 GREY Toronto 04/03/07
Open Sale WVWAF63DX48011275
* NOT SOLD *

2004 V8 4D SEDAN 40,081 SILVER/BLK California 03/29/07
Volkswagen Credit WVWAF63D448009408 
* SOLD: $29,000 *

2004 V8 4D SEDAN 28,273 DRKBLUE/GRY Central Florida 04/11/07
Volkswagen Credit WVWAF63D248008919
* SOLD: $30,200 *

2004 V8 4D SEDAN 33,994 BLACK/TAN Central Florida 04/11/07
Volkswagen Credit WVWAF63D948009629
* SOLD: $29,600 *

2004 V8 4D SEDAN 24,108 GRAY/BLK Penna. 04/05/07
Exotic Sale WVWAF63D048010328
* NOT SOLD *

2005 V8 4D SEDAN 5,414 BLACK/BLK California 03/29/07
Volkswagen of America WVWAF93D258000368 Announcements: frame 
* SOLD: $41,000 *

2005 V8 4D SEDAN 6,695 BLACK/BLK California 03/29/07
Volkswagen of America WVWAF93D258000323 Announcements: frame
* SOLD: $41,250 *

2005 V8 4D SEDAN 31,680 BLACK/TAN Central Florida 04/11/07
Volkswagen Credit WVWAF93D458000579
* SOLD: $36,200 *




_Modified by Paldi at 1:07 AM 4-22-2007_


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Late March/early April listings (Paldi)*

What is "announcements: frame"?
They have low mileage, so were these in an accident (frame damage?)
I am hearing that 04 V8s are going for 22-25K now. I hope the numbers are not that low.


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## TES (Mar 10, 2007)

*Re: Late March/early April listings (dzier)*

Yes, labeled frame means the frame isn't guaranteed due to previous damage.
FYI, three '04 V8's went through Brashers Cascade Auto Auction earlier this month in the Portland Oregon area. One with 68k miles and issues sold for high $18's (currently on ebay) and another with 24k miles in very nice condition sold for high $31's.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Late March/early April listings (TES)*

WHat is the asking price on ebay?


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## TES (Mar 10, 2007)

It looks like it's currently at $20,651 with a day to go -- last week it didn't meet it's reserve and expired at $22,322.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Late March/early April listings (dzier)*

Hi David,
Prices seem to be up some - at least for the California auction. Great prices for frame damaged vehicles. Wonder who got them and if they will disclose?


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Mid April listings*

All V8's, some with damage...
2004 V8 81,356 MI. GREY TORONTO 04/17/07
Open Sale 
WVWAF63DX48011275
*NOT SOLD*

2004 V8 42,641 MI. BLACK/BEI TORONTO 04/17/07
Volkswagen Credit 
WVWAF63D548009806
*SOLD: $44,000* 
2004 V8 149,891 MI. MAROON/BEI TORONTO 04/17/07
Volkswagen Credit 
WVWAF63DX48009767
FRAME
*SOLD: $23,750*

2004 58,925 MAROON/TAN Pennsylvania 04/13/07 
WVWAF63D548008865 
FRAME;PPW;HAIL DMG
*SOLD: $28,000*

2004 V8 39,358 MI. BLU/GRY/BLK Pennsylvania 04/19/07 
Exotic Sale 
WVWAF63D948009467
*NOT SOLD*
2005 V8 18,669 MI. BLUE/GRY TORONTO 04/17/07
Volkswagen Credit
WVWAF03D958004493
*SOLD: $45,000*
2005 V8 4D 15,810 MI. BLACK/GRY CHICAGO 04/17/07
Volkswagen Credit
WVWAF93D858000634
*SOLD: $35,000*




_Modified by Paldi at 1:10 AM 4-28-2007_


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## kgclark75 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: Mid April listings (Paldi)*

wow! 149k miles....highest I've seen.


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## crvtt (Apr 9, 2007)

*Re: Mid April listings (kgclark75)*

_Modified by crvtt at 11:43 AM 4-22-2007_


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## kmartin (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: Mid April listings (crvtt)*

Someone mentioned the new one on the lot going at sticker. At this point, the car is sitting there over a year - how do they expect to get sticker on it? Shouldn't it have depreciated while it was sitting on the lot? I understand it is a 2006 W12 - and from what I understand - the 12 Cyl. cars (A8 W12, 760 IL, S600) all take a giant hit on depreciation.
Am I incorrect? Can someone fill me in?


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## noahas (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: Mid April listings (kmartin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmartin* »_Someone mentioned the new one on the lot going at sticker. At this point, the car is sitting there over a year - how do they expect to get sticker on it? Shouldn't it have depreciated while it was sitting on the lot? I understand it is a 2006 W12 - and from what I understand - the 12 Cyl. cars (A8 W12, 760 IL, S600) all take a giant hit on depreciation.
Am I incorrect? Can someone fill me in?

Yep!







That's why my last 2 cars have been 12 cyl (W12 & BMW 750)
You can buy a 3 year old 12 for minimally more than the comparable 8 cylinder, yet they usually come with virtually every option because they are 30k+ more when new


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## kmartin (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: Mid April listings (noahas)*

What do you think this car is worth?


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## crvtt (Apr 9, 2007)

Just for comparison, a 2006 Mercedes S600 USED is worth about $75k or so. That's easily $50k or more off of sticker. That shows you what a new body style can do to the value of the car it replaces. With there being no 2007 Phaeton, they've taken a similiar hit.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (crvtt)*

It is already a year old, so this would be viewed as as a year old certified car. Titled or not is not significant.


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## crvtt (Apr 9, 2007)

If it's never been titled and never put into demo service it would not automatically be a certified car. The warranty starts from the first date of sale or first date of demo use. With 200 miles it likely was never a demo and the 4 year warranty will start from the day someone titles it. Not sure why it'd turn into a certified one year old vehicle before it's been sold? CPO cars are certified USED vehicles, can't certify a new car regardless of it being one model year old. At least that's how every other brand I've dealt with works, maybe VW is different?
_Modified by crvtt at 9:16 PM 4-22-2007_


_Modified by crvtt at 9:22 PM 4-22-2007_


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## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Mid April listings (kmartin)*

The car is indeed untitled; it's now approaching two years since it was delivered to the dealer. On the dealer's website, they're asking (last week) $100,000, which is slightly less than sticker. The car is an 06 black/black 4 seat W12.
Whoever buys that car will take about 40% depreciation immediately; then, the standard Phaeton depreciation/ownership cost of about $3.85/mile will kick in.








There seems to be only one dealer that can command a high asking price for used Phaetons now - others have them languish until they finally take the hit and sell them at what the market will bear.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Mid April listings (DrDivo)*

This is not going to sell for 100,000. When they sell it, they will take a hit...
unless someone has money that is burning a hole in their pocket and they don't care about depreciation.


_Modified by dzier at 11:36 AM 4-23-2007_


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: Mid April listings (dzier)*

I am starting to rethink trading in my Phaeton. I am spending $500 per month in gas to and from school. This is a bit excessive. I really do not want to get rid of it, but I am having a problem justifying this kind of expense for another 2 1/2 years. I could park it and get something short term, but it would have to be high on safety and be a comfortable ride for the long drives, have good gas mileage, and be inexpensive to justify. I don't think this is a realistic option. I thought about taking up a collection, but I might get bumped off here.
The prices on here are all over the map. I have no idea what this means.



_Modified by dzier at 3:18 PM 4-25-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Mid April listings (kmartin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmartin* »_Someone mentioned the new one on the lot going at sticker. At this point, the car is sitting there over a year - how do they expect to get sticker on it? 

Well - it only takes one person out of the 300 million or so who live in the USA to decide that they want a new, replacement W12 Phaeton. I think that most people who own W12s are pretty happy with the car, and in NAR, we can't order a new one. So, if a current W12 owner is looking at the end of a lease fairly soon, and wants to replace their current high-mileage W12 with a new one, this car in Seattle is the only way to do it.
I kind of admire the dealer for having the guts to hold out for sticker price - and I kind of think that he will eventually get it. Keep in mind that most of the original buyers or lessors of the W12 cars were not particularly concerned about what the car cost. If they want to get a new one, and this one is available for more or less the same price as they have already paid once in the past - problem solved.
As for the general issue of depreciation of 12 cylinder cars - just about any 12 cylinder car will lose around half its value in the first two years of ownership. This has been well proven across all brands (BMW, Mercedes, et al) in the past.
Michael


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## bbyer (Sep 18, 2006)

*149,800 km Aubergine V8 for sale*

Per the URL below, at Leons Fine Cars in Etobicoke Ontario they have one owner off lease Nocturne Aubergine 2004 V8 Phaeton listed for $CDN 29,950.00. I wondered if this was the maroon Phaeton referenced on the mid April sale listing with the notation FRAME. The listed car appears to be well equipped, Parktronics, Wood steering wheel etc. I did send them an email on the car a few days ago but have not yet received a response. My question related to the listing notation that the car has a Spoiler and I wondered if they had a rear view picture of the car as I was not familar with there being a Spoiler avaiable. 

http://www.trader.ca/powerpage...4&m=1


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: 149,800 km Aubergine V8 for sale (bbyer)*

A wood steering wheel would be quite rare as would an aftermarket spoiler. I would tend to believe these statements to be in error. As to the frame issue, or not, you need to call and get the VIN. Compare that to the one I included above. OBTW: 149,800 kilometers isn't the same as 149,800 miles - perhaps further indication of sloppy advertising on their part.










_Modified by Paldi at 9:47 PM 4-25-2007_


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## bbyer (Sep 18, 2006)

*have asked for the serial number re 149,800 km Aubergine V8 for sale (Paldi)*

I just sent off a email requesting the serial number. If I get a reply, I will post the VIN. Up in in Canada, pretty well all the odometers of newer Canadian specification cars read in kilometers, just like Europe. I might add however that it is not uncommon for us here to see US spec used vehicles, Mercedes, Range Rover etc still with the US speedos. On the flip side, at least in Alberta, we seem to ship our off lease Canadian spec pickups into the US Northwest. The US importers change out the speedos, (or the face), and that is about all that needs to be done to make a Can spec pickup look like a US spec Chev, Ford or Dodge. Alberta rivals Texas for pickup sales. Re Phaetons, I do not think we have half a dozen in the province. I think that there are at least two, and maybe three in the Edmonton area - none for sale used in the last few months.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: have asked for the serial number re 149,800 km Aubergine V8 for sale (bbyer)*

The goo news is the Phaeton lets you switch from kilometers to miles and back with a button push! About the inly thing you can't do is change a right hand drive to a left!
I doubt the frame damage is much more than some abraded undercoat. But check it out. They really should disclose it if it's serious. As to a rear spoiler the only ones we know about are offered on ebay. Little trunk lip spoilers lifted from BMW. Wood steering wheels can be imported from Germany.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: 149,800 km Aubergine V8 for sale (bbyer)*

Hi Bruce:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum.
I live in Toronto, although I don't spend much time there. FYI, that used car dealer is located about as close as you can get to the center of the 'ghetto' in Toronto - right in the heart of the neighborhood where 1 or 2 teenagers get shot in drug deals gone bad every weekend, taxis won't take you unless you pay up front, and if you look at the power lines running down the street, you can see a pair of sneakers hanging over the power line every 100 feet or so - local nomenclature that means 'crack for sale here'.
As for the car - it's got 90,000 miles on it, and the price is too good to be true. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the car Leon is trying to sell for 29,950 is the exact same car that went through the auction a week or so ago for $23,700, as noted in Fred's post above:

_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_2004 V8 149,891 MI. MAROON/BEI TORONTO 04/17/07
Volkswagen Credit 
WVWAF63DX48009767
FRAME
*SOLD: $23,750*

I suggest you pass on that one and keep looking. A good place to watch to get an idea of what Phaetons in decent condition sell for is the Autobarn website. They are a huge VW dealer in Chicago who have sold more Phaetons than any other VW dealer in North America. They normally have about half a dozen in stock at any given time. I'm not suggesting that you buy there (would be tricky, importing from the USA), but just go there and get a feel for prices.
As for buying a Phaeton - there were about 110 (total) sold in Canada during the three model years that the Phaeton was offered in North America. I would suggest you restrict yourself to looking at Phaetons that meet the following criteria:
*1)* Still under warranty coverage (warranty is 4 years or 80,000 km).
*2)* One owner car
*3)* Preferably sold by a VW dealer as "Certified Pre-Owned" (gets you another year of warranty).
Those three criteria will probably push the price up into the area of CAD $40 to 50K for a V8, or perhaps as high as CAD $60 for a W12, but at least you could be assured that the purchase price would be all you would have to pay - at least, for the first year of ownership. Have a look at some of the other auction prices listed higher up in this page - it appears that the attractive ones (the low mileage ones) are wholesaling in the $40s, which means they will retail for close to $50 - about what the going rate (in CAD) is for a Phaeton that is in good condition.
Buying a high-mileage Phaeton, out of warranty, with a questionable pedigree, is not something that I recommend to anyone. Any one instance of a significant problem (transmission, engine, etc.) could easily set you back $15K. Overall, Phaetons have been pretty solid and reliable cars, but like any high-end car, how well it has been cared for will have a huge impact on how well it will run in the future.
FWIW.
Michael


----------



## bbyer (Sep 18, 2006)

*V8's listed in Quebec and Ontario*

I enjoyed your comments re beautiful inner Hogtown. I got out a map and found that the car lot is just off 401 on the way to Pearson Airport. I kind of thought Etobicoke was a nice little college town like Waterloo. I guess it is a big world out there. Here on the Prairies, we are pretty knowledgeable about pickups, but they have at least four wheels; re the sneakers, that is news, as crack here is something that happens to your windshield in the winter.
Incidentally, tonight I just took my snow broom out of the trunk - figure I should not need it until late August - that is why 4Motion is really makes sense here.
Yes, $CDN 50,000 appears to be the going price for a nice off lease, but still with full VW warrenty Phaeton in Ontario. I see three V8's listed right now thru Auto Trader priced about $CDN 50,000 by real Ontario VW dealers in Windsor, Woodstock, and Waterloo. The URL below is for a 79,000 km Phaeton listed by the VW dealer in St. Eustache Quebec for $CDN 39,950. A couple of week ago there was a different Phaeton, also just under 40K at the Jaguar / Land Rover dealer in Laval Quebec. I think it is sold now - the English listing says it is, the French listing as of a few days ago, still had it as available. I note now that it also shows VENDU.
For the last few months, I have been watching the Autobarn listings with great interest, in part because until just recently, there have been no Phaetons for sale anywhere in Canada - or at least none that I could find.
This forum sure is a help with cars like the Phaeton. Once one has one, he best get to know it, as these kind of cars are similar to private aircraft; to keep them on the road or in the air, you best know more than how to start the engine. 
http://www.canadatrader.com/re...srt=1


----------



## Jouko Haapanen (Apr 30, 2001)

I had a good look at the high kilometrage Phaeton (as well as the other two Phaetons) that ran through the Toronto auction and sold for under CAD25K. Although I did not want to buy that particular vehcle, cosmetically the car looked surprisingly good considering its' odometer reading. I would expect that in the coming months, we'll see a couple of Phaetons at the Volkswagen Finance auction each month, as these cars are starting to come off three year leases.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Jouko Haapanen)*

Jouko:
If you are ever considering purchasing a Phaeton - either for your own use, for resale at the dealership, or for a friend - please don't hesitate to give me a call (Curtis at Richmond Hill can give you my home phone), or send me an email. I would be delighted to go to the auction with you, have a look at the car, check out the controller status, etc. and let you know what work (if any) would be needed.
My home is less than an hour drive from you.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: V8's listed in Quebec and Ontario (bbyer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bbyer* »_I kind of thought Etobicoke was a nice little college town like Waterloo. 

Yeah, it was, 30 years ago, just like Brooks was a nice quiet little farm town 30 years ago. Times change...
Michael


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Want a V8, Real low milage, good one with no Frame damage and a non discolored interior and perfect body? Not in the cold salt ridden North? Bet a 07 is within $6K of MSRP and a 06 within $12K and a 05 within $16K and a 04 within $35K


_Modified by GripperDon at 12:27 PM 4-28-2007_


----------



## bbyer (Sep 18, 2006)

*No reply yet re VIN*

Well, to date, no reply from the Etobicoke reseller as to the VIN and other questions. I suppose the lines may be shorted out due to the sneakers.
Now that you mention Brooks, (doubt anyone else in Zurich knows of that particular berg in the southern Alberta dustbowl), yes the new feed lots and packing plants have given the town a different flavor. On the up side, you can find more than steak and eggs or chinese food on the menus of the local coffee shops, (more than one now), - progress has given the town a certain diversity.


----------



## Jouko Haapanen (Apr 30, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael - I've actually been toying with the thought of buying a Phaeton to keep long-term in our personal use vehicle "fleet" (not that I want to compete with Volkswagen's museum). Unfortunately the auction is no longer welcoming of non-dealer guests (unless the rules have recently reversed again) so I can't invite you to join me on my shopping spree at the TAA. 

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Jouko:
If you are ever considering purchasing a Phaeton - either for your own use, for resale at the dealership, or for a friend - please don't hesitate to give me a call (Curtis at Richmond Hill can give you my home phone), or send me an email. I would be delighted to go to the auction with you, have a look at the car, check out the controller status, etc. and let you know what work (if any) would be needed.
My home is less than an hour drive from you.
Michael

Coincidentally, I actually had a nice chat with Curtis a week or two ago and the conversation went off-topic to discussing my soft spot for the Phaeton. It was pretty much exactly four years ago today that I had a chance to drive the Phaetons at the Arizona proving grounds, including the W12 on the big banked-turn oval...how could one *not* fall in love?


_Modified by Jouko Haapanen at 8:48 PM 4-28-2007_


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: A low miles Chicago area 2005 W12 coming to auction (dzier)*

High miles 4-seat car on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem










_Modified by Paldi at 7:09 PM 6-2-2007_


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (dzier)*

Just $45,000 for a W12 with 28k miles. Man, I want another one!
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Volkswagen-...wItem


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Looks like they never even removed the blue plastic film from the trunk closer surround.


----------



## NickM (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: (Jouko Haapanen)*

The cars in Canada seem to be few and far between..seems the inventory is thick south of the border and with the CDN dollar almost at par with the US dollar, buying in the US is nearly a no brainer. I may get one of these after all


----------



## poppy2 (Nov 28, 2006)

*Re: (NickM)*

Nick ;
You're right . I just did !!


----------



## NickM (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: (poppy2)*








congrats!!! 
I may not be far behind. If I find the right colour/powertrain combo at the right price I will take the plunge as well!


----------



## TES (Mar 10, 2007)

After seeing the last black/tan VCI Courtesy Buy Back V12 go through the local auction and turn around and sell on ebay so quickly I thought I give today's basically identical Phaeton (other than miles) a try, yet it sold for $1500 more. I stopped bidding at $32.5k. Oh well, maybe next time -- I was really looking forward to trying out the V12 after driving a V8 for the last three months.
2004 Volkswagen Phaeton 4D Sedan W12 AW LU AC WA SR 4D BLAC 16,830 A $33,250 Portland, OR *05/03/07*
2004 Volkswagen Phaeton 4D Sedan W12 AW LU AC WA SR 4D BLAC 29,618 A $34,750 Portland, OR *06/14/07*



_Modified by TES at 2:01 PM 6-14-2007_


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (TES)*

With dealers marking them up 10 grand, maybe you need to buy four! (and keep the best one for yourself)


----------



## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (TES)*

I’m pretty sure I ended up with this one and paid $39K for it via eBay:
2004 Volkswagen Phaeton 4D Sedan W12 AW LU AC WA SR 4D BLAC 16,830 A $33,250 Portland, OR 05/03/07
This week is the first week I got to drive it, but so far so good. Driving it to Louisville and back yesterday was a nice treat. I’m still adjusting to everything and it keeps growing on me.


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## TES (Mar 10, 2007)

>>>With dealers marking them up 10 grand, maybe you need to buy four! (and keep the best one for yourself)
Yeah, I'm sure I still could have done ok (make a little money) -- it's hard to say with some of the prices on ebay. My dealers license is just a small side hobby (out of garage) and I was kicking myself for not seeing the 16.8k mile V12 go through the auction last month, and I really thought this one would sell cheaper -- live and learn.


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (TES)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=7


----------



## vdubbug (Nov 7, 2004)

*Re: (dzier)*

Hi all,
My father needed to replace his 1999 Daimler-Chrysler (lol) E-320 4matic last January with another car. He needed four wheel drive and luxury so naturally I suggested the Phaeton and started my search for one. He loved the idea of a Bentley at half priced. However the Mercedes with 160,000 mi and unable to pass the next inspection made my father buy a 2007 G35x on a whim. 
However for no reason I still like to see how used Phaeton prices and availability are doing in my area. I am giant fan of the Phaeton, or any other car with a great story behind it and an enthusiast group. Anyways I spotted this one on Autotrader.com with 142,026 miles and I thought someone on here might have interest in seeing a high mileage Phaeton's condition. Sorry for the wheel choice. 
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/...t=130
PS: I spotted Warren PA's first Phaeton traveling on Route 62. 
-HP


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: a couple of recent solds from Chicago...*

Prices seem to be holding at the wholesale auctions.
2004 Black 43,900 Mi. $35,000 
2006 Silver 3,355 Mi. $45,500


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*The current crop.*

Here's what's coming up! Anyone interested in the details let me know.







2006 W12 
VIN: WVWBK03D968001949 
ANTIBES/GRY 
Mileage: 7,360 
Pa
2004 V8 
VIN: WVWAF63D648009362 
LUNA BLU/GRY 
37,161 
Ca
2004 V8 
VIN: WVWAF63DX48009137 
BLACK KL/TAN 
28,369 
Florida
TRANSMISSION WEAK 
2004 V8 
VIN: WVWAF63DX48010837 
BLACK/BEI 
26,003 
Pa 
2005 V8 
VIN: WVWAF03D258005100 
BLACK KL/TAN 
58,308 
Ohio 
2005 V8
VIN: WVWAF93D058001146 
SILVER/GRY 
37,484 
Orlando 






_Modified by Paldi at 1:09 PM 7-17-2007_


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

This one sounds interesting:
2006 W12
VIN: WVWBK03D968001949
ANTIBES/GRY
Mileage: 7,360
Pa


----------



## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

VERY interesting - any idea about the interior color and whether it's a four seat?


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (DrDivo)*

Interior is gray - Unfortunately the photo of the interior just stopped at the edge of the front armrest and it's hard to tell if it's a 4 seater armrest or not.
I *think* it's a 4 seater (80% certain). 








It is described as having power rear seats.



_Modified by Paldi at 2:24 PM 7-17-2007_


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## Jouko Haapanen (Apr 30, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*

Yes, it is a 4-seater.

_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Interior is gray - Unfortunately the photo of the interior just stopped at the edge of the front armrest and it's hard to tell if it's a 4 seater armrest or not.









_Modified by Paldi at 2:02 PM 7-17-2007_


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

My sources tell me it's a four-seater with DSP. 
Bid high, bid fast. 
PC


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

The auction is July 26th however this one is offered in the "pre-sale" inventory so I believe anyone interested in it could buy it before the auction if you want. Call your local VW dealer and they can submit a bid for you on-line!








This car has to be worth $55,000 or more. Maybe a lot more.



_Modified by Paldi at 3:20 PM 7-17-2007_


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## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: (Paldi)*

The 06 blue W12 four seat in Gwinnet is at $68,999 - I'd say that's a fair statement of what this car is probably worth.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (DrDivo)*

Yep, but on the other hand, they have it. When it's bought we'll know.


----------



## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

There does not seem to be much recent data on auction prices. Has anything sold from the July 17 posting?


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Recent solds in PA.*

PHAETON 4.2 2004 V8 BLACK 26,003MI $31000

PHAETON 4.2 2004 V8 BLACK 43,386MI $25800
PHAETON 2004 W12 BLACK 36,177MI $36500

PHAETON 2008 4PASS W12 ANTIBES 7,360MI $67500 



_Modified by Paldi at 4:25 PM 8-5-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_PHAETON 2008 4PASS W12 ANTIBES 7,360MI $67500 

That 2008 W12 is a bargain.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (PanEuropean)*

Oops... Wrong Planet!








It's a 2006! Great price though, for an auction! 
I thought it would bring a good penny, but $67,f00 - that's grand!


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (Paldi)*

Even with the model year correction, $67K is a pretty good price for a 2006 W12 four-seater with such low mileage - not to mention that Antibes Blue is a knockout colour, and a very rare colour.
Michael


----------



## kgclark75 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (PanEuropean)*

It can be yours for only $84k!








http://www.cars.com/go/search/...=true


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (kgclark75)*

...and would probably sell in the mid 70s, according to the Kelly Blue Book calculator that is available on the retailer's website. I'm pretty sure that if someone went in there and offered $75K for it, they would drive away in it. That would be a good deal for both parties.
Michael


----------



## pirateat50 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (PanEuropean)*

Same PA Dealer's Ad on eBay: Happiness for only $105,000!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWDVW


_Modified by pirateat50 at 1:38 PM 8-9-2007_


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## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (pirateat50)*

They are OUT OF THEIR MINDS at $105,000 (the buy it now price.) The 06 W12 black/black 4 seat in Seattle was brand new at $106,000. The similarly positioned 06 dark blue W12 4 seat in Gwinnett is not sold at $69,900 for months now.
This seller is still eImports; same care as the one discussed in the few previous messages.
I mean, custom color, sure, but it's not equipped with ROW market-only options or celebrity ownership that would rationalize the price.
It is gorgeous, though, isn't it?


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## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (pirateat50)*

Okay, fodder for conversation -
we have a series of the W12 newer model Phaeton which are not garnering any bids and are languishing at the prices being asked by seemingly every dealer but for Autobarn and Dean Team of Kirkwood. 
The stunning Antibes Blue 2006 4 seat just closed on eBay with no bids. There is an equally beautiful 2005 W12 5 seat black/black that's been advertised for weeks on eBay that doesn't approach its reserve price.
Even examples with extremely low mileage can't bring interest over a long period of time.
Here's the "for conversation" piece:
Is it just that Autobarn and Dean Team are able to sell these to their customer base because they can properly describe and inform about the car?
Is the marketplace for these cars so highly informed that a dealer (one comes to mind) who mis-represents a car in a significant way loses all credibility?
Was it a mistake for VWNA to bring in so darned many 04 black/beige 5 seat W12 cars which now seem to be everywhere?
Was it a mistake for VW and its dealer network to have focused so much on black and silver for the car? Only the Phaeton had such a varied palette of luscious colors in the market below that of Maybach, Bentley and Rolls. Personally, I about jumped straight on an airplane when I saw a W12 4 seat advertised as being "Papillion Silver Heliochrome" only to find out through one of our kind forum members that it was just Reflex Silver.
Do you think it's really true that VW in this country is so identified with the Beetle that they cannot make the jump to this type of model? Personally, I think that argument is hollow. The Taureg has done very nicely, and it commands a substantial price premium over competitive import SUVs.
Okay, discuss...


----------



## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I think a lot of it is down to the unfortunate fact that most buyers of luxury cars want black or silver with black leather interiors. Looking through the Phaetons available on the UK second-hand market you can count the cars with interiors other than anthracite on one hand and as for colours, my pick would probably have been Marais Green and I've only ever seen one Phaeton in that colour (about three years ago and not for sale).


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (DrDivo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DrDivo* »_Is the marketplace for these cars so highly informed that a dealer (one comes to mind) who mis-represents a car in a significant way loses all credibility?
<SNIP>
Personally, I about jumped straight on an airplane when I saw a W12 4 seat advertised as being "Papillion Silver Heliochrome" only to find out through one of our kind forum members that it was just Reflex Silver.

When I was searching for mine, this was a constant source of annoyance and disappointment. Not only did I find myself teased with such offers, a dealer even went so far as to pique my interest in a Tizian Red vehicle. Of course, it was quickly confirmed there were no Tizian Red Phaetons imported into the NAR and it was actually Nocturn Aubergine.


----------



## NickM (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (DrDivo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DrDivo* »_Okay, fodder for conversation -
Do you think it's really true that VW in this country is so identified with the Beetle that they cannot make the jump to this type of model? Personally, I think that argument is hollow. The Taureg has done very nicely, and it commands a substantial price premium over competitive import SUVs.
Okay, discuss... 

Well, the Touareg is isn't really being sold at a price premium, its more of a bargain compared to its real competition (Cayenne, Q7, Land Rover, X5 etc) ...it sells on unique ability not offered by many in its segment (the Land Rovers are the only vehicles with similar capabilities). Resale isn't so great so I'm not sure the "beetle" argument is hollow. Unless people are car people they have no idea what a Touareg costs or what it is capable of (they figure its the same as their CRV/Highlander etc etc...rather than actually being twice the price with capabilites far superior).
I've been looking at Phaetons lately and I'm finding the perception the same...people think its a Passat, have no idea this is a vehicle that is on par with Bentley, RR, and the high end BMW and MBs. Have no idea of its cababilities and have no idea what it costs.
VW has not done anything to position its brand in the NA market, all I see are ads talking about what sale is on this week...beetle analogies are part of pop culture, how many times do you hear "oh, its the size of a volkwagen", or "well this is the cadillac solution, and this is the volkswagen solution". Out of date analogies for sure, but if I ran VWs marketing budget, a good piece of it for the next 24 months would be spent on positioning the brand.



_Modified by NickM at 5:17 PM 8-23-2007_


----------



## ramsecon04 (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (Paldi)*

What's the story behind this one: WVWAF63D448009439
Spotted on the back lot at Lujack's in Davenport. No Dealer tags, maybe a trade? Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Recent solds in PA. (ramsecon04)*

I'm clueless.


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

NickM
Join the crowd, I think the majority of posters agree with you. Very poor clueless advertising. The prices of Phaetons and Tourages astound potential car buyers weather we want to admit it or not. All because they don't have a clue as to what that are.
On the other end of the scale, VW does little to bring in the very high mileage Polo and the like from Europe.
I truly believe that VW has their head in the sand or someplace when it comes to the American car market. If they control any part of VW NA I would fire them all, they are a bunch of arrogant (can't admit any criticisms) folks. 
You know feedback is required and inevitable, It you do something with it you are a winner if you deny it you are a loser. They are losers.


_Modified by GripperDon at 11:01 AM 8-28-2007_


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## WoodlandHills (Jan 1, 2006)

*W12 in Los Angeles*

Anyone able to provide info on VIN: WVWAH63DX48007804
I have a friend with a potential interest in this local W12.
Thanks


----------



## Tampa (Sep 2, 2007)

*Re: (DrDivo)*

In the U.S. market, would it be customary to negotiate a predetermined dealer profit and then have the dealer submit a bid? 
Assuming a buyer is not risk adverse or financing, what buying process affords the best value to the buyer?
Speaking personally, I'd like to acquire the Phaeton with the slowest depreciation trajectory.
Any "Bird Dog" ideas for a number crunching kind of guy?
All the best.


----------



## .:Rcoholic (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: W12 in Los Angeles (WoodlandHills)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WoodlandHills* »_Anyone able to provide info on VIN: WVWAH63DX48007804
I have a friend with a potential interest in this local W12.
Thanks

If the car has 10,000.00 miles or less, it's Wholesale book value is $48,025.00. Retail book on the car is $54,980.00. It also has a clean Carfax







The vehicle shows as registered "Corporate Lease", meaning company car and was last serviced showing 890 miles







. PM me if you have anymore ???s


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*What's going on? What's goin ON!*

Year Make/Model Odometer Color Location Lane Run Sale Info

2004 PHAETON W12 4D SEDAN 45,434 BLACK KL/TAN Central Florida 01/18/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON W12 4D SEDAN 50,625 BLACK Manheim 01/10/08
Open Sale 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 26,501 DK BLUE/GRY Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 29,648 LUNA BLU/GRY Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 55,009 DK BLUE/GRY Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 20,632 LUNA BLU/GRY Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 38,723 LUNA BLU/GRY Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 46,858 SILVER/GRY Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 51,347 BURGANDY/TAN Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 20,465 BURGANDY/BLK Ohio 01/15/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 42,749 BLUE Portland 01/15/08
Open Sale 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 49,460 SILVER M/BLK Central Florida 01/18/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 16,204 BLACK/TAN Central Florida 01/18/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 29,226 COCOU GR/BLK Central Florida 01/18/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 49,970 SILVER M/BLK Central Florida 01/18/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 28,907 BLACK/BLK Manheim 01/10/08
Open Sale 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 54,769 SILVER/GRY Dallas Ft. Worth 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 44,552 BLUE/GRY Manheim 01/10/08
Open Sale 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 34,116 BLACK/BEI Aloha 01/23/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 41,487 BLACK KL/BLU Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 45,246 BLACK KL/TAN Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 42,315 LUNA BLU/GRY Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 36,931 BLACK KL/TAN Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 44,044 BURGUNDY/TAN Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 64,705 GRAY/GRY 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 74,602 SILVER M/GRY Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 45,682 COCOU GR/GRY Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 46,697 BLUE/GRY Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 58,840 BLACK KL/TAN Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2004 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 35,004 NOCTURNE/GRY Arena 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2005 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 25,798 BOLERO B/TAN Central Florida 01/18/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2005 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 36,070 BLACK/GRY Dallas Ft. Worth 01/22/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2005 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 33,951 BLACK Manheim 01/10/08
Open Sale 
2006 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 39,718 BLACK KL/BLK Central Florida 01/18/08
Volkswagen Credit/ Audi Financial Services 
2006 PHAETON V8 4D SEDAN 15,936 WHITE Manheim 01/10/08
Open Sale 










_Modified by Paldi at 3:51 PM 1-19-2008_


----------



## jtl60047 (Aug 10, 2004)

*Re: What's going on? What's goin ON! (Paldi)*

Thanks Fred!


----------



## Phae Tonaway (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: What's going on? What's goin ON! (Paldi)*

Thank you Fred for keeping the Daily Bird-Dogger alive. I appreciate the effort it takes you to gather the info.


----------



## wolfshund (Apr 29, 2007)

*Re: resale prices (PanEuropean)*

What are the prices for the V10 in old europe?


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## jtl60047 (Aug 10, 2004)

Does it seem like there are a good many 04's hitting the auctions?


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## Phae Tonaway (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: What's going on? What's goin ON! (Paldi)*

Hi Fred. Do you know how much the cars sold for?
Thanks.


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## Phae Tonaway (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: What's going on? What's goin ON! (Paldi)*

I look forward to it. Thanks


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*High Mileage 2004 Phaeton V8- Did I pay too much?*

Really hard for me to figure out. It took me about 6 months to chase either an 06 Audi A6 or a 2004 Phaeton. I found one this weekend from a small used-car vendor with 83K miles (highest mileage I've ever seen in a Phaeton). At $19K, I moved fast (faster than my comfort level to be honest) 
My quandary is: The obvious source, KBB, said the $19K I paid for a 2004 Phaeton V8 with 83,000 miles was a bargain (It shows as KBB trade-in value of $22K, retail $26K). I know KBB is highly inflated anyway. But Automobile Magazine website has it as $17,700 Retail with 80,000 miles range which makes more sense. But there is no way to prove it either. My constant Ebay trolling showed a Phaeton 04 with 75K miles going for $22K recently (last month). Carfax shows my Phaeton as a lease, but how the hell did they put 83K miles on a 3 year lease??? (Maybe it was a lease to a limo company?) I hope at least it was properly serviced for 2 years if it reached 50K miles in 2 years.
The Bay Area sometimes has a drought of Phaetons (In December there were only 2 in the market) This week there are 6 2004s, from 26K miles to 56K (from $32K to $23K) excluding mine. 
The interior is fine, with some minor abuse, like the middle console plastic clip gone, (it still closes) No navigation CDs except for the CA one, the keys' VW logos are worn out completely, the cup containers move up very slowly, and the very faint smell shows it was a smoker vehicle. (Plus it has the rare cigarette lighter!) I got the much dreaded TPMS transmission error that won't go away. No phone either. Other than that, the Phaeton is in great shape, needs a good detailing and probably new tires by the time summer gets here. I figured if I didn't go for it, I would regret it... but I am unclear if my deal was 'awesome' 'good' 'average' or maybe I should've fought harder for an extra $1000 off. (The car was advertised as $19,900, I got it for $18,700, tires and need for service helped the negotiation) So after all the analysis I ran last night, I'm still not sure.







The Phaeton Market report didn't show such a high mileage one recently in the US. What do you think? 


_Modified by ciscokidinsf at 6:57 PM 2-17-2008_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: High Mileage 2004 Phaeton V8- Did I pay too much? (ciscokidinsf)*

What is the "TPMS transmission error" you are referring to?
One issue you are going to have to deal with is the 80K service which includes the timing belt. Has it been performed? Also, make sure it got plugs at 60K.
Best of luck. Mine has about 54K on it now.
Steven


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: High Mileage 2004 Phaeton V8- Did I pay too much? (car_guy)*

The TPMS error that says the sensors can't communicate. The TPMS never comes up or say a tire is flat. All 4 tires show no communication, even after I did the reset-inflate tires-reset process that has been suggested around. 
I bet the Timing Belt wasn't done. It did have new plugs around 50K. How much for the timing belt replacement at the dealer? $3K?


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## Scala24 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: High Mileage 2004 Phaeton V8- Did I pay too much? (ciscokidinsf)*

Personally, I think you got the car extremely inexpensive. However, knowing the car pretty well and seeing them in serivce I would of bought a CPO car from a dealer who knows what they are talking about. You could of bought a 74,999mile Phaeton for low 20's including VW Cert and not have to worry about the things you are worrying about.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: High Mileage 2004 Phaeton V8- Did I pay too much? (Scala24)*

I have a guy in my office with an Audi who purchased a 3rd party warranty to 150,000 miles. I would go out and find one to have on your car. Its a Phaeton and will cost you with out one for any work needed.


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: resale prices (wolfshund)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wolfshund* »_What are the prices for the V10 in old europe?

Right now there are just two V10s offered on the VW network. Both are 2004. The LWB is £25950 with 38,500 miles. The SWB is £24,985 with 42,400 miles.
The UK V10 list price was around £65,00 but unfortunately it's no longer listed.


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: High Mileage 2004 Phaeton V8- Did I pay too much? (ciscokidinsf)*

There are not enough Phaetons in the US for realistic numbers. Look at what is for sale, look at what trae in and resale costs are, and then make a judgement on the deal based on these numbers. If it is in the ball park for the car and the shape it is in, then you did fine. Very difficult to compare with so few and pricing varyong aross regions.


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## crvtt (Apr 9, 2007)

For comparison sake, a 74k 2004 sold for $16,000, a 69k one for $17,400, but the there a slew of them in the 50-60k mile range selling for $17-18k. I'd say an 83k mile Phaeton would wholesale right around $15. It seems they did no recon work to your Phaeton cisco. so figure after fees, transport, hopefully a detail, the owned the car for $15,800 or so. I'd say you did pretty fair though I hate when other dealers don't recondition their cars.


_Modified by crvtt at 6:08 PM 2-25-2008_


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

Our European brothers updated their numbers. Any updates of the bird dogger for North America? The 2005's are coming off their leases as we speak.


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