# Too many turbo options but which one and why.GTX2871,GTX2867,GTX3067R,GTX2967,GTX2971 etc



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Ok i think theres too many options nowadays which is good! but deciding which is best for your goals-setup is not that easy...at least for me...

Lets stick with Garrett...

Lets say our goal is arround 500HP (Crank), on a stock bore motor so 1800cc, stock valvetrain so 7500rpm limiter, stock or upgraded cams etc.

For that power goal we have many selections.










From what we have seen by the GTX line, spool is affected due to the design of the billet wheels so full boost comes a bit later on the rev range...

So the GT line is still an option so for *arround* 500Hp @ the crank we have the following selections:

GT2871
GT3071 

GTX2867
GTX2871
GTX2967
GTX2971
GTX3067

Lets say the GT2871 lacks of air flow to get you closer to 500Hp so we can take it out of the list but still we have too many options and to me it seems that some turbochargers have very similar or even identical spool and nearly the same flow.

The GTX2867R is a very good performer and if we need that little extra power up top the GTX2871 will be available soon but due to the 71mm compressor will spool a little bit later i guess.
At about the same characteristics range we also have the GT3071....will give similar spool due to the 60mm turbine and about the same flow up top.
But what about the GTX3067 then...and the GTX2967 announced...

How can you select with so many options out there which will suit your needs-setup better...

The GTX2871 would be nice for existing GT28 setups as you can switch turbos easily but wouldnt the 71mm compressor wheel push the limits of the small T28series turbine meaning water meth will be needed and higher PRs so even a more efficient intercooling?

On the other hand a GTX29-3067 would give you the same spool i guess with less PR ? so for a setup with no water meth-not that efficient intercooling would be best suited?

If i am not mistaken Garrett will be using an 11 blade design compressor wheel on the new GTXs? so we can expect a bit different characteristics?

What are your thoughts for what setup would each turbocharger be best suited?


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

GTX29 is just the GT30 cropped up wheel.

I would go with GTX3067R. Should provide spool identical to GTX2867R with a little more flow up top. The GTX3071R spools at 4200RPMs on a stock motor and its a dog to drive on the street IMO.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

brwmogazos said:


> Ok i think theres too many options nowadays which is good! but deciding which is best for your goals-setup is not that easy...at least for me...
> 
> Lets stick with Garrett...
> 
> ...


For 500 HP I think the GTX2871R should be a quick spooler (GT28 exhaust wheel) while being capable of 560 HP. Plan on reving it to 7800 RPMs at 22psi on stock displacement for 500 HP. At 30psi, you shouldn't have to rev past 6500 RPMs for 500 HP.

The GTX3067R should *theoretically* be able to achieve 500 HP with the larger GT30 exhaust wheel. However, I would prefer the GTX2871R with the smaller GT28 exhaust wheel and 71mm compressor wheel over the GTX3067R.

For anything above 560 HP, the GTX2971R should spool quicker than the GTX3071R while being capable of 640 HP.

Alternatively, you can stay on the small side like me with the GTX2867R on 2.1L and top it off with a 50 to 200 shot of nitrous (not yet functional). I suppose I can always swap in the GTX2871R compressor wheel in the future on my 0.48 A/R T31 exhaust housing. It won't flow as much as an 0.63 A/R version but will probably get me confortably over 500 HP while having quick spool.

EDIT: For clarity.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

The 67mm wheel flows 47lbs so it falls short of your 500hp goal on paper. 
unless you're using super fuel (e85). 

id opt for the 3067 though out of all those. I really want to see what one can do. .63ar v-band housing


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

IMO the GTX29 isn't worth the time. Like I said, its the same cropped up wheel as the GT3071R-WG. Flow is limited. Sheer laziness from Garrett's part.

There is some data online where the GTX3067R spools just as quick as the GTX2867R on other applications like Mazda 3 and Subaru's.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

superkarl said:


> The 67mm wheel flows 47lbs so it falls short of your 500hp goal on paper.
> unless you're using super fuel (e85).
> 
> id opt for the 3067 though out of all those. I really want to see what one can do. .63ar v-band housing


Oh yeah. I forgot that I'm setup for E85. That should put me at the 570 HP mark without the nitrous. I'm just waiting to get my E85 program setup from GTS Tuning with (hopefully) a few tricks like activating the SAI relay programically to engage my second in-tank fuel pump.

EDIT: Hopefully I can get setup for the E85 this spring.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

[email protected] Performance said:


> IMO the GTX29 isn't worth the time. Like I said, its the same cropped up wheel as the GT3071R-WG. Flow is limited. Sheer laziness from Garrett's part.
> 
> There is some data online where the *GTX3067R spools just as quick as the GTX2867R *on other applications like Mazda 3 and Subaru's.


That would be a good option for sure.


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

[email protected] Performance said:


> There is some data online where the GTX3067R spools just as quick as the GTX2867R on other applications like Mazda 3 and Subaru's.


linky?


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Let me add some extra info and make this thread even more interesting

I have already seen results from the GTX2871R as well as from the GTX2971R in friends cars as its common from tuners to upgrade the compressor wheels in Garretts arround here too.






This video also has a dyno plot near the end and i have already posted that in mainstayincs topic concerning GTX2867R spool however thats not a hybrid RS-> 2867. I was wrong buddy.

The compressor wheel used with the GT28RS was the billet one from the GTX3071...so this dyno is the result from the GTX2871R as it combines those two wheels.

It is running on 100RON + Torco + water meth injection. The head has been upgraded with a large port AGU and its running 81.5 or 82mm pistons from what i can remember from back when i saw those pistons in the garage.

The manifold is a PagParts T25 and i dont have info on the a/r used but i am 99% sure its .64.

Spool seems to be identical to the GT3071R and i can see full boost at around 4200Rpm in the vid.


This turbo seems very promising and i guess with a T3 manifold the performance would be a bit better maybe without the need to push 2.3 bar of boost.


Recently when i took my car to the dyno a friend dynoed his too and his setup is a GT3071 upgraded with the GTX3071 compressor wheel.

However his GT3071 is not using the 60mm turbine wheel....it has the smaller 56mm wheel so his hybrid is actually the GTX2971R.
His setup is a stock bore engine forged with stock intake manifold and throttle body with upgraded valve springs and a set of cat cams (he doesn't remember the grind but his tuner used the most aggressive one he claims :banghead + SS tubular exhaust , tial MVR WG etc.



In the dyno plots above on the left is his current setup using the cat cams @ 1.5bar of boost. On the right is the dyno plot with the same setup with stock camshafts however. It can clearly be seen that the power band with those cams has shifted a lot to the right which i personally do not like however the power gains seem huge and was achieved with a new Uni stage 3 tune and those camshafts.





This dyno plot is his last one from the day we both took our cars to the same dyno. Forget about the numbers as the dyno results are quite optimistic especially the corrected HP values (i got 430HP corrected from my 28RS setup @ 1.8bar of boost on 100RON lol ) . Lets only look at the spool characteristics of the GTX2971R. This is the result of 1.8bar of boost. We tried 2.1 bar and the car would loose power over 7000 rpm for some reason so imagine the same plot but over 7000 rpm a small horizontal drop on the plot. Maybe that was caused by the small turbine wheel ??? The Dyno Operator claimed the 3" exhaust may be kinda small for this setup...Stock intake, small 3071 turbine wheel, tune? (unitronic stage 3 on 830 injectors) who knows...so one more run was made @ 1.8bar where the car worked OK as it can be seen from the dyno plot above where the car lost no power over 7000rpm.

These Maha dynos show huge wheel to crankshaft loss. The Dyno operator told me not to take in account the wheel measurements. I dont know why, but i have seen the same "results" in other Maha dynos arround here. However i still see the corrected crank HP to be way off too....the un corrected values seem ok to me.


Mainstayinc concerning the GTX2971R power claims i thought 640hp sounded quite weird...There is no information concerning these new turbochargers even today which is strange to me but i came accross the following pic where they seem to have corrected by hand the GTX2971R power range lol. It looks like 500HP to me rather than 640 originally advertised...




That seems more realistic and more complicated at the same time and this is why i started this thread as @ 500HP there TOOOO many options and which is best suited to my needs is a bit of a "mystery" to me now.

Concerning my personal setup, i was planning on upgrading my 28RS with the GTX2867R as soon as it was advertised. Extra power up top without the need to change my complete setup as i dont have that much free time lately. Then Garrett advertised those new GTXs few weeks ago. Keeping my stock intercooler rated @ 550 HP (its not getting good airflow throughout its full length though), no W/methanol injection and using 100RON pump gas, on a stock bore forged engine, while keeping the stock valvetrain and stock cams on my small port head which turbocharger would work best for my setup? My only plan at this moment is to upgrade my intake manifold with a custom one, based on a big port AGU and an R32 thottle body with a transistion spacer.

I believe the GTX2871R due to its small turbine wheel will need a lot lot of boost to produce say 500HP. So more hot air is going to be generated which my intercooler might not be able to cool enough.

A GTX3067R might work better with my setup as the bigger turbine wheel along with my T3 manifold will have less back pressure and the compressor wheel at less boost will take me there even though it will be running at the same PR as the GTX2871 i guess? 

Then theres the GTX2971 and 2967 which dont have such an efficient turbine wheel but its something in between the GT28 and GT30 as far as spool is concerned so lets say to my eyes it will be the best balance between spool and flow without high PRs?

This is where i need your input so that i can make the best turbocharger selection...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] Performance said:


> GTX29 is just the GT30 cropped up wheel.
> 
> I would go with GTX3067R. Should provide spool identical to GTX2867R with a little more flow up top. The GTX3071R spools at 4200RPMs on a stock motor and its a dog to drive on the street IMO.


hotside a/r is a factor here houston!

what a/r are you suggesting for the above setups


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

brwmogazos said:


> Let me add some extra info and make this thread even more interesting
> 
> I have already seen results from the GTX2871R as well as from the GTX2971R in friends cars as its common from tuners to upgrade the compressor wheels in Garretts arround here too.
> 
> ...



3076 is what I would be looking at personally on 0.64 hotside


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

are you limited to Garret for any reason?

the EFR series seems to offer a lot more benefits.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Bill mate i havent heard of any "good" reviews from the GT3076 yet. Everyone seems to claim its too laggy for the 1.8t on stock bore.

ejg3855 those EFR sound very promising but my setup has been built already with the 28RS so a direct swap would be best. I dont have too much free time nowadays as i travel a lot with my job for big periods of time on construction sites, so upgrading valvetrain, upgrading my complete setup etc etc would be a difficult job for me instead of a direct swap without the need to upgrade a lot more parts in my engine for the new setup to work well.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

brwmogazos said:


> Bill mate i havent heard of any "good" reviews from the GT3076 yet. Everyone seems to claim its too laggy for the 1.8t on stock bore.
> 
> ejg3855 those EFR sound very promising but my setup has been built already with the 28RS so a direct swap would be best. I dont have too much free time nowadays as i travel a lot with my job for big periods of time on construction sites, so upgrading valvetrain, upgrading my complete setup etc etc would be a difficult job for me instead of a direct swap without the need to upgrade a lot more parts in my engine for the new setup to work well.


we run one on a TT racecar, on 1900cc with cams replacing its previous 3071... Spools very good.. 4krpm its away pulling strong and 508bhp at 2bar
won its class last year.

http://youtu.be/O-dqMbkdnqs


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

That thing is a beast. Pullin strong and still spinning wheels at speed:laugh::screwy: Its also on the track with a pretty intact power band badger.

Somedays I wish I went with a 30series, but so far very happy with my gtx2867. Sure it could be the bigger gt30, but am happy with my lil gtx. Once egts are a problem Ill bump up a size...till then.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

badger5 said:


> we run one on a TT racecar, on 1900cc with cams replacing its previous 3071... Spools very good.. 4krpm its away pulling strong and 508bhp at 2bar
> won its class last year.
> 
> http://youtu.be/O-dqMbkdnqs


Nice setup. A lot of gear changing, though, with TT transmission and high reving turbo.



RodgertheRabit II said:


> That thing is a beast. Pullin strong and still spinning wheels at speed:laugh::screwy: Its also on the track with a pretty intact power band badger.
> 
> Somedays I wish I went with a 30series, but so far very happy with my gtx2867. Sure it could be the bigger gt30, but am happy with my lil gtx. Once egts are a problem Ill bump up a size...till then.


You haven't come close to maxing your setup yet with stock bottom end. I'm waiting to see your setup after rods etc. are installed. Also, your GTX2867R should be good for 7500 RPMs on stock displacement (6500 RPMs on 2.0L or 2.1L). I don't think EGTs would be a big problem in a street application unless you habitually rev past stock redline. But, yeah, I'm somewhat tempted by the larger GTX offerings too.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

mainstayinc said:


> Nice setup. A lot of gear changing, though, with TT transmission and high reving turbo.


hardcut is 8200 on the tt

lots of gear changing as it accelerates hard..


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

That TT looks fast !!!

Had a chat with an ecu tuner today as i need to collect as many info as possible.

He told me to go with the 60mm turbine wheel version as i will still have full boost @ 4000 rpm... Also that would bring me closer to 500HP compared to other turbo options. My T3 manifold with the T31 turbine housing of .63 a/r may be a limiting factor in order to achieve ~500HP.

So it seems that he suggests the GTX3067R...over any other option. He also mentioned those EFRs are getting v v v good results concerning spool and power but my setup is already built with a Garrett turbo so i need to stick to as little changes as possible for now. I need more input in order to decide though eace:


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

i love my gt3071 v2 billet blade upgraded by arnold at pagparts.com i also have arnold's .72 a/r exhaust housing... and i rev out to 7800rpm... it pulls great i plan to add some meth and turn up the boost a bit but im currently sitting at 400whp on 26psi

ie springs
supertech valves
pauter rod's from VAPMotorsports
Cats cams 3651's


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## ibizacupra (Nov 23, 2001)

brwmogazos said:


> That TT looks fast !!!
> 
> Had a chat with an ecu tuner today as i need to collect as many info as possible.
> 
> ...




the TT runs a 0.64 tial hotside on its 3076
I run 0.64 tial hotside on my hybrid 35/precision62
neither of us loose any top end power but do have nicer spool


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

NaSMK4 said:


> i love my gt3071 v2 billet blade upgraded by arnold at pagparts.com i also have arnold's .72 a/r exhaust housing... and i rev out to 7800rpm... it pulls great i plan to add some meth and turn up the boost a bit but im currently sitting at 400whp on 26psi
> 
> ie springs
> supertech valves
> ...


You def have another 50whp in that setup


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Any input from a technical point of view guys?

I would like to know in general what should i keep in mind selecting different turbos with this kind of differences that all produce around the same flow.


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

do u want crazy top end or do u wana break your wheels lose and have traction issues all the time?

thats the real question imo


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

NaSMK4 said:


> do u want crazy top end or do u wana break your wheels lose and have traction issues all the time?
> 
> thats the real question imo


Top end will have to be limited to 7500rpm.

I think there should be a balance between low end torque and usable power up top. For crazy top end then GTX3071 would be spot on but the power band would be very limited. For a drag car it wouldnt be a problem but for a car which spends 95% of the time at low boost then it would be overkill imo.

I am leaning towards the GTX3067R...so that the 60mm turbine wheel would help the engine "breathe" better on high revs. I guess it will also stress my 02j gearbox less.

I guess i should expect GT3071 spool with this turbocharger too...so arround 4000 rpm full boost?


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger#GTX2871R

And the GTX2871R appears in the Garrett website finally including compressor map,exhaust housing options etc etc...


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

brwmogazos said:


> http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger#GTX2871R
> 
> And the GTX2871R appears in the Garrett website finally including compressor map,exhaust housing options etc etc...


I'm going to snap up that compressor map. Thanks.

EDIT: I overlaid this map over the GTX3071R. They are the same identical map.


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

from what I can tell based on what you're saying I think a GTX2871 will make you happy. I think u have a classic case of #'s for hp are too important to u and not realistic yet, i dont mean to offend but i can tell u making 500whp isn't easy.. and i hope u have a budget of about 2.3k for head 2.1k for bottom end *with pistons subtract 600 without pistons(Mind you dont need pistons until about 500+whp) 3-7k for turbo kit Pending how much quality u and power u want a good place to start pagparts.com, and 1.5k FX Clutch and $200 for pinion brace (if u are a 02j) plus another 500-1000 or even more depending for a tune... oh and an upgraded fuel system another 300ish and thats just firing them off the top of my head approximations of what it would cost all new parts and good labor rates. somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-14k depending how crazy u wana go. oh and if u want a big turbo u would be a fool to not get an LSD thats another 800ish and then 600ish in labor.


Now u tell me a number in $ a realistic BUDGET what CAN u Spend and WHAT DO U WANA SPEND and then how much are u willing to break that budget? Because its going to happen trust me only way to not break budget is gamble on used parts and certain parts u cant afford to gamble on because if u get a bad part u cant sell and u cant get your money back budget gone out the window! Realistically though a gtx2871 will be hard to get over 450whp it will have one of the best torque curves for street use but will break tires loose like there's ice on the road if u give it gas... 

if anyone wants to jump in here and correct me go right ahead im pretty sure im accurate on 99.9% of this the only thing id question slightly is my knowledge of the gtx2871 but from what i can tell its a very very strong early torque monster with no breath up top. probably starts running out around 5600rpm's


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

NaSMK4 said:


> from what I can tell based on what you're saying I think a GTX2871 will make you happy. I think u have a classic case of #'s for hp are too important to u and not realistic yet, i dont mean to offend but i can tell u making 500whp isn't easy.. and i hope u have a budget of about 2.3k for head 2.1k for bottom end *with pistons subtract 600 without pistons(Mind you dont need pistons until about 500+whp) 3-7k for turbo kit Pending how much quality u and power u want a good place to start pagparts.com, and 1.5k FX Clutch and $200 for pinion brace (if u are a 02j) plus another 500-1000 or even more depending for a tune... oh and an upgraded fuel system another 300ish and thats just firing them off the top of my head approximations of what it would cost all new parts and good labor rates. somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-14k depending how crazy u wana go. oh and if u want a big turbo u would be a fool to not get an LSD thats another 800ish and then 600ish in labor.
> 
> 
> Now u tell me a number in $ a realistic BUDGET what CAN u Spend and WHAT DO U WANA SPEND and then how much are u willing to break that budget? Because its going to happen trust me only way to not break budget is gamble on used parts and certain parts u cant afford to gamble on because if u get a bad part u cant sell and u cant get your money back budget gone out the window! Realistically though a gtx2871 will be hard to get over 450whp it will have one of the best torque curves for street use but will break tires loose like there's ice on the road if u give it gas...
> ...



Hello.

I think you didnt read this thread carefully buddy so your conclusions are not so accurate.

First of all i wanted this thread to have some info on how those differences of the above mentioned turbochargers effect the performace and which suits better a certain setup. Unfortunately that didnt happen.

Why would someone select a GTX3067R over a GTX2871 for example and why and no i dont mean the basic differences that nearly everyone is aware of. The 2871 has a small turbine and a higher flowing compressor so it seems like an ideal turbo for someone who has no knowledge how the billet wheel with 11 blades etc affects spool blah blah....

Then which turbocharger would suit better for a motor with upgraded valvetrain, small port, big port etc etc...This is the info i was looking for as i need that info for my future plans.

Concerning my personal car, i have already paid $14 000 just for my big turbo setup, that is just for the engine, and trust me i saved loads by ordering parts from the states. You see you have the advantage of very cheap engine parts....and a huge variety of parts available to to you next day...

So my engine is a small port with currently 56 000 kms and it was built for a GT28RS setup using parts from Pag Parts and other suppliers. Scat rods, Wisecos, calico bearings, stock head though , PPT T3 manifold, GT28RS, Garrett T31 .63ar housing, Tial mvs, Tial Q, Bigger FMIC and pipes, engine mounts, G60 flywheel with Clutch masters FX300 kit which failed, so ended up with a Clutchnet 6puck and now a new kit (FX400) as i dont like the driveability of the 6puck, APR in tank, Unitronic Stage 3 (630SD file) etc etc etc

Forget about the power goal...i mentioned around 500HP at the CRANK, not Wheel HP...so no i am not looking for high dyno plot numbers to show my friends...if that was the case, i would have chosen a GTX3071 with a very small powerband...

I have already contacted AL from Pag Parts (he has been very very helpful over the years) on which turbochargers will suit my current setup so that i can finish my list of parts that he will have to supply, and i am waiting to contact a different Ecu tuner as i wont be using Unitronic for my future plans even though an update would save me loads of money instead...


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## NaSMK4 (Dec 12, 2011)

brwmogazos said:


> Hello.
> 
> I think you didnt read this thread carefully buddy so your conclusions are not so accurate.
> 
> ...


lol well i didnt mean to offend you. Good luck with finding the information you seek I'm guessing it wont be found here on vortex unfortunately as much as I wish it were as simple as that.


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Nah not offended buddy. Excuse my bad english if this is what my type of writing made you think.

Yesterday i was also informed about a new power plant project that i will have to work for (~1.5-2 years away from home again) by the looks of things so i MAY have a time window of 1-1.5 months to buy parts, have them installed, break in new clutch (lol), have a new tune for my ecu and i just dont have enough free time to organise that...once again i may have to delay my plants and this is what disappoints me the most...Oh well


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

brwmogazos said:


> Why would someone select a GTX3067R over a GTX2871 for example and why and no i dont mean the basic differences that nearly everyone is aware of. The 2871 has a small turbine and a higher flowing compressor so it seems like an ideal turbo for someone who has no knowledge how the billet wheel with 11 blades etc affects spool blah blah....


Because the small turbine will choke the compressor. The spool between a GT2871R and GT3071R isn't much different and the GT28 turbine chokes the compressor up top.

Now you are adding a bigger wheel (GTX) and on top of that, the 11 blade wheel design is slow to spool. So now its a double whammy.

Get the GTX3067R and a tune that uses VVT for improving transient response time and everything will be good to go. And yes, we offer dynamic VVT tunes :thumbup:
If you want more power, get the GTX3071R or maybe even GT3071R with Arnold's billet wheel (Pag Parts).


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## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

[email protected] Performance said:


> Because the small turbine will choke the compressor. The spool between a GT2871R and GT3071R isn't much different and the GT28 turbine chokes the compressor up top.
> 
> Now you are adding a bigger wheel (GTX) and on top of that, the 11 blade wheel design is slow to spool. So now its a double whammy.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply.

Yes this is what i decided. The GTX3067R is what i am going for hoping it wont be overkill for my stock head 7500rpm revving motor. 

The GTX3071R will be way too much for my setup i believe with my stock head and displacement.

I know its off topic but ill ask...since VVT can adjust timing up to 20degrees as far as i know...how is it possible to adjust further timing advance up to 25+ degrees when using water meth, or even with stock K03s turbocharges by looking into timing advance logs of 25-26 degrees?


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

The VVT solenoid does not mess with ignition timing. It mostly just retards the exhaust cam.


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