# Middle Price NA build, 2007 Jetta W.E.



## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Well, I guess I will go ahead and get this started now so that I have the documentation/record later when I start forgetting what all has happened (and so I can keep track of it all where my wife won't find out  ).

While I am sure I will get some grief for not going the turbo route with regards to HP/$ spent, I just didn't want to go that way. So here it is, the start of a build that will hopefully yield a car that is very fun to drive. As I have already started working on the bolt ons, I will just list them off, and get the pics of them that I have available. This is more to document the motor build up, especially the internals.

When I started, the car was 100% stock and sitting at ~50k miles. Since this is my daily driver, I have to pick and choose carefully with parts and time frames ( I can't have my car down at all, it is the only one).

*Current Mods:*

Suspension:
Koni Orange Shocks
Eibach Pro Springs

Engine:
Stage II Motor Mounts (both)
Stage 4 Puck insert
PowerFlex Dogbone Bushing
BSH CAI
IE intake Manifold
IE Fuel Rail
IE Valve Cover
IE Breather, block and valve cover
OBX header/test Pipe
Votex Exhaust
SAI Delete
C2 tune (Custom)

Transmission:
SouthBend Stage II Endurance Clutch w/ single mass flywheel

That is everything as it sits now. I will be getting a little dyno time before the car has the remainder of the work done, so that I can see what happens. 

Here is what is planned, most of which I already have parts for:

Suspension:
PowerFlex bushings (trailing arms, front control arms, anti-roll bars, rear lower control arms, steering assembly)

Engine
JE Pistons, 11.0:1
IE Forged Rods
IE Ti Valve springs
Intake and Exhaust valves (standard size)
Bosch injectors (working on size, hoping for 380 or 550)
External Oil Cooler
C2 tune(again, custom)


I will get some current photos up over the weekend, but hopefully the build will begin to progress soon and I can get this out onto the road.

Updates to follow!


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## mmdub (Nov 29, 2011)

cool thread.. i like that you've used a lot of aftermarket internals.. Not sure when you did each mod(s), but which one (or few) stand out the most for noticeable improvement? I'm thinking improvement can be anything from low rpm power, high rpm power, driveability, ect..


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Looking forward to updates. 

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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

mmdub said:


> cool thread.. i like that you've used a lot of aftermarket internals.. Not sure when you did each mod(s), but which one (or few) stand out the most for noticeable improvement? I'm thinking improvement can be anything from low rpm power, high rpm power, driveability, ect..


The bolt on mods went on in the typical order. CAI, then cat back, then header and intake together. Each stage to date has had a new tune to match. 

The CAI and cat back was the most dramatic overall change. The performance at low RPM was improved, and the high RPM was greatly improved. The header and manifold had a dramatic effect on the upper RPM range with more power and smoother pull from about 4k on up. The drawback is the low RPM torque is just gone. I expected some drop in torque with the manifold, and some drop with the header, but with them both going on at the same time it was a big difference.

The internals are being swapped as a result of a few things. One is this loss in low RPM performance. While I am certain that a snail could fix this and give a better overall performance gain, reason two comes down like an anvil. I have a slight blow by in cylinder 1, and a moderate blow by in cylinder 4. Both will maintain compression enough to run, but they are both failing slowly.

The other day I noticed that I was getting blue smoke in the exhaust, so I checked in a couple places and noticed that the valve seals were leaking just a little bit. So what the hell, time for some better valves too, right? 

I am hoping that by the time I get it ready IE has their new pulley system on the market, as well as the cams that will work with the higher compression ratio, and I can make some real power.

As for drivability, everything has gotten better and better as it has gone along save the motor mounts. They really helped the performance but the vibration is something else all together… :laugh:


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

lessthanalex said:


> Looking forward to updates.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk


Me too, valve springs shipped today so I am getting closer!


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Nice build you have going there. :thumbup:

Why did you choose Stage 2 mounts opposed to Stage 1? I have Stage 1 on both sides and there's zero vibes, but a massive improvement in performance over stock.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

DriveVW4Life said:


> Nice build you have going there. :thumbup:
> 
> Why did you choose Stage 2 mounts opposed to Stage 1? I have Stage 1 on both sides and there's zero vibes, but a massive improvement in performance over stock.


Honestly, I had just gotten the car a little while before the change. Coming from an older 3 series where stage 1 was just a price upgrade and stage two was the first hint of performance, I purchased stage 2 for the jetta. I don't regret it, but at the same time I wish I would have seen a warning that I would be 3 or 4 inches shorter after each ride. lol


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

You could always buy stage 1 inserts separately, if you can't tolerate it anymore. Just a thought. 

Anyway, cool build. I look forward to watching it progress. :beer:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

FYI an Evo header will pick up some of that torque you lost. These cars really don't appear to like long tube headers.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Just a little pic of the fun to come.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

That looks great. 

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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

makes. me. moist.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> FYI an Evo header will pick up some of that torque you lost. These cars really don't appear to like long tube headers.


They like a long header just fine. Its all in how they are built/designed.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> They like a long header just fine. Its all in how they are built/designed.


Yeah, I think if it was a "real" long tube header and not the OBX ebay special it would not have been such a dramatic change at in low end performance. Once I get the rest of the parts on the shelf for the current plans, if there is enough left in the budget, I will more than likely pick up a header flange from IE and have somebody build a custom header for it. It will still be a long tube, but it will not have the stupid 5-1 collector that is causing all issues in the OBX header. It really needs 5->3->1 and be about 2-3 inches longer on each branch. Good news is that with a new header, I won't have that unusable O2 bung up on the header.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

f5racing said:


> Yeah, I think if it was a "real" long tube header and not the OBX ebay special it would not have been such a dramatic change at in low end performance. Once I get the rest of the parts on the shelf for the current plans, if there is enough left in the budget, I will more than likely pick up a header flange from IE and have somebody build a custom header for it. It will still be a long tube, but it will not have the stupid 5-1 collector that is causing all issues in the OBX header. It really needs 5->3->1 and be about 2-3 inches longer on each branch. Good news is that with a new header, I won't have that unusable O2 bung up on the header.


The 5 into 1 isnt a big problem. Getting the primaries long enough is. From the info I gathered 28-30in primaries will give you some pretty good low end. My car definitely has more punch at the low end even with the bypass open. But fitting all 5 tubes through the hole that the subframe and exhaust tunnel makes is tight.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

mldouthi said:


> They like a long header just fine. Its all in how they are built/designed.


I think you own the only 2.5L moving enough air through this motor to justify a long tube header, and I'd venture a guess that's because you're force-feeding yours. :beer:

As of right now, the only header on the market that doesn't kill torque is made by Evo. Maybe with a bump in compression, that'll change --but I wouldn't bet one it. I'd rather swap a factory 2012+ individual tube header than buy anything besides an Evo right now. 

That said, I don't have access to the modeling equipment you do  --so I could always be wrong.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

sorry for the crappy angle. Had to take it under the car a few months back --this header is what comes on the new 2.5Ls from the factory. It's built for torque, and accomplishes the job rather well. It's good enough, I'm pretty sure I'd see all of no gains from any header currently produced. The older 2.5Ls have a POS, so maybe this is a worthwhile retrofit.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> The 5 into 1 isnt a big problem. Getting the primaries long enough is. From the info I gathered 28-30in primaries will give you some pretty good low end. My car definitely has more punch at the low end even with the bypass open. But fitting all 5 tubes through the hole that the subframe and exhaust tunnel makes is tight.


That looks great, but I don't even want to think about what it took to get that all in the tunnel...

I didn't see how cheap the flange was, so just ordered one of those too. It may take a little while, but I will get something similar sooner or later.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

f5racing said:


> That looks great, but I don't even want to think about what it took to get that all in the tunnel...
> 
> I didn't see how cheap the flange was, so just ordered one of those too. It may take a little while, but I will get something similar sooner or later.


Having the 5th primary flanged in the middle is key to getting it in place. This was actually my second attempt header, that I couldnt get into place until I cut and flanged that primary. 

Good luck with the rest of your build, post pictures of the header when its done. I enjoy seeing custom parts. Also there are quite a few header calculator programs online that will put you in the right direction (No offense if you already knew that).

:beer:


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> Having the 5th primary flanged in the middle is key to getting it in place. This was actually my second attempt header, that I couldnt get into place until I cut and flanged that primary.
> 
> Good luck with the rest of your build, post pictures of the header when its done. I enjoy seeing custom parts. Also there are quite a few header calculator programs online that will put you in the right direction (No offense if you already knew that).
> 
> :beer:


Thanks! Once I get the last delivery of parts, hopefully next week, I can start doing some pre-assembly and fitting. 

Thanks for the heads up on the 5th primary. :thumbup:


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> ic:
> 
> sorry for the crappy angle. Had to take it under the car a few months back -- this header is what comes on the new 2.5Ls from the factory. It's built for torque, and accomplishes the job rather well. It's good enough, I'm pretty sure I'd see all of no gains from any header currently produced. The older 2.5Ls have a POS, so maybe this is a worthwhile retrofit.


Interesting factoid there, sir. :thumbup:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> It's built for torque, and accomplishes the job rather well. It's good enough, I'm pretty sure I'd see all of no gains from any header currently produced. The older 2.5Ls have a POS, so maybe this is a worthwhile retrofit.


Forgive my ignorance, but where are you basing your... Information?

Explain to me how is it that the short headers affect volumetric efficiency in a way to "give good low end torque", and the long headers don't.

You seem to type a lot and I have yet to see where is it that you are sourcing all this "knowledge".

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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

thygreyt said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but where are you basing your... Information?
> 
> Explain to me how is it that the short headers affect volumetric efficiency in a way to "give good low end torque", and the long headers don't.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly

:thumbup::thumbup: (I wish there was a clap smiley)
opcorn:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

thygreyt said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but where are you basing your... Information?
> 
> Explain to me how is it that the short headers affect volumetric efficiency in a way to "give good low end torque", and the long headers don't.
> 
> ...


It's pretty well established that long tube headers unavoidably sacrifice low RPM torque. I'm sure you can find out why on your own --ain't hard to use Google. Just like intake runner length, exhaust runner length alters the power and torque bands more than actually generating more or less power.

Also, if you don't like what I have to say --there's an ignore feature. I'm not in the mood to research for you, and definitely in the mood to argue. :beer:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

mldouthi said:


> My thoughts exactly
> 
> :thumbup::thumbup: (I wish there was a clap smiley)
> opcorn:


See above. If you don't care for my posts, please ignore them instead of needlessly being an arse.


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## Rabbidrabbitt (Mar 21, 2011)

Mine has long tube headers and still have lots of torque, it's all in the tune and build.


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## Rabbidrabbitt (Mar 21, 2011)

Rabbidrabbitt said:


> Mine has long tube headers and still have lots of torque, it's all in the tune and build.


I have 3" exhaust and still plenty o torque, again build and tune.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Rabbidrabbitt said:


> Mine has long tube headers and still have lots of torque, it's all in the tune and build.





Rabbidrabbitt said:


> I have 3" exhaust and still plenty o torque, again build and tune.


One of the basic principles of exhaust design is to restrict the flow just enough to create a low pressure area behind each pulse of exhaust gasses. Too much flow is just as bad a design as too little flow.

Saying "it's all in the tune" is a but of an exaggeration. There's no amount of tuning which can put back what physically is not there :beer:

Like I've said earlier, there's the possibility a bump in compression *may* put enough torque back into the low end that a long tube header is vastly superior. Right now, the only header on the market that's ever been dyno proven to make real power with no lost torque on the stock internals is made by Evo. AND I'm not too sure it's really any better than a stock 2013+ 2.5L header, but to verify that I'd need to see more dynos than what I've seen (which is dozens --I know the owners of dynocom pretty damn well --built their info sys infrastructure a couple summers ago.)


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> See above. If you don't care for my posts, please ignore them instead of needlessly being an arse.


Sorry for being an arse.



But......

I/we are just curious where you are getting your info from because long tube headers/header can create good low end torque if done in the correct long length. We could probably both go on for days about header/exhaust/intake designs but there is no need in OPs thread. 

The only things I really chime in on here that isnt my own thread are just to keep information straight, A long tube header can make good low end torque its all in how the header is tuned, ie lengths, primary/secondary sizes, collector length and size and so on, not the computer tune. There are so many variables that you either have to do real work trial and error, or in depth transient flow analysis to be for sure. A blanket statement that says long tube headers will kill your torque is just not true. Yes, it can with a bad design, but it could also help.

/rant

Not trying to make enemies, just trying to keep the info correct, My comment was uncalled for.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

mldouthi said:


> ...just curious where you are getting your info from because long tube headers/header can create good low end torque if done in the correct long length. ....


Apology accepted.

My background in engineering is in semiconductors --and more specifically in RTOS hardware (like ECUs.) My knowledge of cars comes from growing up down the street from a GM factory and being on a racing team in college. While both are useful for my time spent in RallyX, it isn't exactly a mech engineering background.

I'm fairly sound on general principles involving design, but --like I said, I'm not always 100% accurate because I lack your background and the tools you have access to.

My comments on this motor are based on staring endlessly at dynos and having a pretty great group of friends who also race cars with this motor --my comment on long tubes for this motor are well founded for the norm of finished products, and true for all released products for a VW 2.5L as of today. Like I also said --I'm not exactly sure what all will change when compression increases. I'd have to see logs.

:beer:

Carry on, I'll bow out of this thread now. :beer:


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Got a little titanium in the mail Friday. One part closer!









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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Well, unfortunately I am still waiting on a few parts for the motor to get started with that part of the build up. The waiting is getting expensive as I have added the following to the list:

Mishimoto Radiator
H&R RSS Clubsport Coil overs
H&R 24mm Rear SwayBar
IE Camber Plates
USP Lower Control Arms
New IE catch can (the old one sprays oil/water everywhere…)


I am also toying with the idea of ditching the AC, despite living in Georgia. I only used it a few times last year (<10) and would love to move the alternator down to the AC position and add an electric water pump to ditch an entire belt. 

Hope the parts show up soon so that I can stop this madness…


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Just got another box of goodies. One step closer to this project getting underway!!

Just a few quick teaser pics for the update:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Pics don't show

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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> Pics don't show
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


Well crap. How about now?

















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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Those work. :heart:

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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Omfg, sooo pretty.. Makes me want to do te same...

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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Do not do the Mishimoto radiator. I bought one for our project GLI thinking it would be an upgrade- no- the core is smaller and far less dense then the OE units. It's a total piece of crap- their "design team" didn't even have an explanation for why the radiator was 2" shorter then the OE one. :screwy:

Post a pic of your OE radiator core when you have it out. The newer turbo cars have a much denser core which is an upgrade if your car doesn't already have it. 

Are you going to build the head / do the guides and so forth? If so, you should install the new guides .080" further into the head to make room for more lift. Just sayin


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

Nice looking build :beer:
Looking forward to the finished numbers.

IE, make this man some cams and then when you're done I'd love a set.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Do not do the Mishimoto radiator. I bought one for our project GLI thinking it would be an upgrade- no- the core is smaller and far less dense then the OE units. It's a total piece of crap- their "design team" didn't even have an explanation for why the radiator was 2" shorter then the OE one. :screwy:
> 
> Post a pic of your OE radiator core when you have it out. The newer turbo cars have a much denser core which is an upgrade if your car doesn't already have it.
> 
> Are you going to build the head / do the guides and so forth? If so, you should install the new guides .080" further into the head to make room for more lift. Just sayin


Good to know Pete, thanks for the information. I was planning on just the valves and springs, but now I may have to add guides to the list…

Wow, so glad my wife can't see this.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

chezzestix said:


> Nice looking build :beer:
> Looking forward to the finished numbers.
> 
> IE, make this man some cams and then when you're done I'd love a set.


Thanks! Hopefully I should have the car on a dyno in the next couple weeks for the current setup so act as a baseline. I plan on getting the work done around spring break next month unless Pete decides to surprise us all and release the cams. I would wait few weeks to do the build after the semester ends for a set of cams.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

spring break, as in... doing the whole work in 1 week?

you sir, are brave. I foresee stressful times.


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

I cannot wait to see more. If that is all happening in a week I agree with thygreyt, that is going to be rough. Good luck 

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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> spring break, as in... doing the whole work in 1 week?
> 
> you sir, are brave. I foresee stressful times.





killerbunny said:


> I cannot wait to see more. If that is all happening in a week I agree with thygreyt, that is going to be rough. Good luck
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


Yeah, the car is daily driven so I don't have a ton of time for the work. As long as my help shows up I should have no issues. Figure a day for the tear down, a day for the head, a day for the internals, a day for check/clearances, a day for rebuild, and a day for testing.

This is why I started the thread and parts buildup so early. Better planning = less stress. 

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## WhatNoGarnish (Jul 6, 2007)

Im really looking forward to seeing how this turns out... :thumbup:

I debate going turbo as you did, but I think a higher compression NA motor for the I5 would sound and perform nicely.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

awesome! i'm like you... 
i did my turbo on last year's spring break... sure, its not the same.

could you please take tons of pics???


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> awesome! i'm like you...
> i did my turbo on last year's spring break... sure, its not the same.
> 
> could you please take tons of pics???



I will be taking a ton of pictures. My wife is off from school the same week, so she can help with the pictures side of things. Well, once she gets done with her HPFP and diverter valve fix on her FSI.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

WhatNoGarnish said:


> Im really looking forward to seeing how this turns out... :thumbup:
> 
> I debate going turbo as you did, but I think a higher compression NA motor for the I5 would sound and perform nicely.


I am hopeful that it will be worth it. Honestly, I am hedging my bets that somebody releases a set of cams for the motor that will work for NA. If that doesn't happen, I may end up kicking myself for not going to lower compression and turbo. 

I guess only time will tell.

Worst case is that the car gets put into a fun only setup, and I pickup a cheap daily for school/work. I think the car would be fun with stripped out and setup for solo-x or even some SCCA FWD racing.


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

how far do you want to rev it ? will you change the camshaft ? Who make them ?

We want to built our next rally car as a 4wd 2.5L n/a Rabbit in the next two year and we've start getting info and feedback of people doing high compression 2.5

Thank


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Have received a few more parts, still waiting on a few and it will be time to party. 

My new camber plates from Integrated:








These are just FN beautiful guys! Great work.

Got the grille back from the local body shop. I know, it isn't the motor but it is the only shot in the thread of the car the work is going into...








No more chrome is so nice.

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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Alpha27 said:


> how far do you want to rev it ? will you change the camshaft ? Who make them ?
> 
> We want to built our next rally car as a 4wd 2.5L n/a Rabbit in the next two year and we've start getting info and feedback of people doing high compression 2.5
> 
> Thank


I WANT to rev it past 9000 rpm. Need to stop killing belts first though. I am currently running a tune that limits at 7000 so that I can stop carrying a T25 and 15mm around all the damn time. As for cams, I am waiting for somebody to release a set, and they will definitely be going in. Hoping Pete can help me out with that since he talked me into buying a new set of guides for this project.


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## eunos94 (Mar 17, 2002)

I've held the opinion since it's launch that the 2.5 is capable of 300+hp in naturally aspirated form with the correct cams, porting, pistons etc. I have been stunned that no one has as of yet really tackled cams and maybe even a crank for this engine. Looking forward to your further progress and hoping that this is the first sign that the NA parts floodgate is about to open wide. 

I have fantasies of a 1984 4000CS Quattro with a 2.5 running ITBs, aggressive cams, high lift valve springs, high compression pistons etc pushing 300+ at 9500rpm whilst screaming past a line of "modern" cars on the back straight at Mid Ohio... a boy can dream, right?


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

eunos94 said:


> I've held the opinion since it's launch that the 2.5 is capable of 300+hp in naturally aspirated form with the correct cams, porting, pistons etc. I have been stunned that no one has as of yet really tackled cams and maybe even a crank for this engine. Looking forward to your further progress and hoping that this is the first sign that the NA parts floodgate is about to open wide.
> 
> I have fantasies of a 1984 4000CS Quattro with a 2.5 running ITBs, aggressive cams, high lift valve springs, high compression pistons etc pushing 300+ at 9500rpm whilst screaming past a line of "modern" cars on the back straight at Mid Ohio... a boy can dream, right?


At this point I would like to think that 300hp is possible, but the obvious hold up is cams. While the tensioner is required for a daily driven car that needs the accessories, a track car can obviously get around this by simply removing the accessories. I have thought of doing this, and may still do it if the tensioner/under-drive system doesn't pan out.

I think that with the raised compression and higher RPM the cams would bring this motor to life. Hopefully we will get to find out.

I think that a high output NA 2.5 would be great fun. Running up the hill in the Esses at Road Atlanta with this would sound good and pull like a monster.


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

How long are your IE conn rod ? Stock lenght ?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

i just saw that you are in atlanta!! 

This is awesome, i'll drive by to see the car when its done. 
Cant wait to listen to it.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

thygreyt said:


> i just saw that you are in atlanta!!
> 
> This is awesome, i'll drive by to see the car when its done.
> Cant wait to listen to it.


I second that. I go to atlanta often and would like to see this when its done. :thumbup:


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Alright, so a very little update for the weekend since I had 3 exams this past week and two more this coming week. 
I was able to get the new catch can on tonight after work, thus alleviating the issues with it spraying water everywhere while running. I like the look of the old can better, but this new design will work much better.










Since the last box of goodies was delivered today, I also took inventory of everything that will encompass this project. Warning, there is non-motor related content to follow (but motor content too!).

Here are the motor parts, not including maintenance parts like the water pump and belts.





































The suspension upgrades that are to go on the car next weekend. I am taking your advice and breaking the work into two sections. Next weekend is the rolling parts (suspension and brakes) and the motor work will take place over spring break.




































This should be fun! Now to find some wheels that I can put on that will work with the brakes I want.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

mldouthi said:


> I second that. I go to atlanta often and would like to see this when its done. :thumbup:





thygreyt said:


> i just saw that you are in atlanta!!
> 
> This is awesome, i'll drive by to see the car when its done.
> Cant wait to listen to it.



Come on by! :beer: I hope to have it built by the end of March and the final tune by the second week of April. Will hopefully have a little time between summer and fall semesters to get the car out on the road too.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Alpha27 said:


> How long are your IE conn rod ? Stock lenght ?


Sorry, I missed this post. The IE rods are the stock length. I am running a smaller 20mm wrist pin at IE's recommendation rather than a 21 or 23 so there is a little less mass to throw around. Won't need the strength since there is not going to be a snail on the car.


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

And what is the stock lenght ? I just to figure what is the rod ration (lenght/stroke)

Thank you


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

All I have handy is a caliper, but it measures to 144mm. 

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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

ok thank you


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

So, a little update. Two weeks ago was finally able to get the coil over setup on. I have been waiting on it to settle a bit to post pictures on here, and will add them when I get down with the engine work at the end of the week.

Tonight I started the engine work that I have been waiting to do, and here are a few pictures of the teardown work I was able to do quickly when I got home from work.

Before I got started…just in case I forget how it all goes back together 









Valve cover off.









Intake manifold off. Stopped here for the evening.










I will get the fluids drained, and the bumper off in the morning. Then off comes the head, oil cooler, and oil pan. Hopefully by tomorrow night I have the old pistons out, and the head on the bench with the old timing parts removed. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

Nice!!


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Alright, so more good progress today. Got the timing chain and parts removed, the head off, and the oil cooler removed/replaced with the IE plate.

I also was able to get the bottom end ripped apart, and get the old pistons out of the block. Tomorrow will be cut honing and polishing the cylinders, and putting the trans and everything back in. That leaves the head for Wednesday, and the odds and ends for Thursday. Should be a good week!!!

And of course, pictures:

The bottom end with the upper oil pan removed.









A little creative engine stand. We couldn't get a lift in time, so this works for now. The five bolts for the upper oil pan that were behind the flywheel, that was not cool VW.









Pistons removed, and a everything ready for cutting.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Nice!!


Thanks. Hopefully I will have enough time to get it up to you guys between spring and summer semesters for some tuning on the dyno. I have a feeling it will need it, and it will be broken in by then.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Since you're already doing cooling hoses, you might consider getting an aluminum R32 rad. There's a thread around here where someone did one --seems like a worthwhile upgrade since you've got the coolant drained anyways.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

i thought UM was doing your tuning....


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Since you're already doing cooling hoses, you might consider getting an aluminum R32 rad. There's a thread around here where someone did one --seems like a worthwhile upgrade since you've got the coolant drained anyways.


Honestly, I had thought about buying the r32 radiator from mishimoto, but Pete talked me out of it. I may upgrade to a larger radiator later if the car sees track time, but for now it I am saving for a set of wheels so that I can get the brakes under it that I want.



thygreyt said:


> i thought UM was doing your tuning....


No, I have been using C2 for the software side. Other than the one solution that was made for Integrated for the new SRI, United doesn't have support planned for the NA market.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Ok... Now, back to the pics!!! opcorn:

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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> Ok... Now, back to the pics!!! opcorn:
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


Soon enough. I pulled out my hone this morning to start working and realized that it was broken… I have one coming tonight, so then the project will start going again. Glad I have the whole week to do this.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

f5racing said:


> Honestly, I had thought about buying the r32 radiator from mishimoto, but Pete talked me out of it. I may upgrade to a larger radiator later if the car sees track time, but for now it I am saving for a set of wheels so that I can get the brakes under it that I want.


I'll admit it's overkill, but I hate doing rad jobs enough I'd just knock it out instead of screwing with it later. That's 100% my personal hatred of rad jobs, but that's what I'd do.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

My car is everywhere! I love it. 










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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

I'm very interested on the valvetrain part. 

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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Looking awesome. Quick question, for the upper oil pan, if that needs to be removed, it would be the bolts behind the flywheel and the rest are accessible once you remove the lower pan. Any other bolts I am missing?


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> I'm very interested on the valvetrain part.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


That is set for tomorrow night and Thursday. I will take plenty of pictures too.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

killerbunny said:


> Looking awesome. Quick question, for the upper oil pan, if that needs to be removed, it would be the bolts behind the flywheel and the rest are accessible once you remove the lower pan. Any other bolts I am missing?


Once you take off the lower pan, there are a bunch of bolts that are visible inside the pan. There are a couple on the outside of the pan facing up, there are 6 behind the flywheel once the transmission is off, and there are 4 on the front of the motor around the crank seal (easy to spot).


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## Thebuilder17 (Jun 20, 2013)

f5racing said:


> Once you take off the lower pan, there are a bunch of bolts that are visible inside the pan. There are a couple on the outside of the pan facing up, there are 6 behind the flywheel once the transmission is off, and there are 4 on the front of the motor around the crank seal (easy to spot).


Any updates?


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

There has been some progress, but it has been slow due to a few outside issues. After dealing with not one but two family emergencies, 1 broken part that I hadn't ordered, and 3 broken tools, I am 80% done. The bottom end is back together and rotating smoothly. The transmission is back in the car, and the engine assembly is fully connected to the chassis again. The head is underway, with the new guides in place, the new valves in, and the springs ready to be locked onto the valves (I should have this done tomorrow since I need a second person to make it a reasonable task). With this done I will have the lower head back on tomorrow night, and get it timed and the upper head on either late tomorrow night or Friday night. That leaves only the intake and exhaust manifolds, throttle body, and miscellaneous hoses and lines and it will be ready for fluids and fuel. Then comes the fun part. All told I should have it done by Sunday morning and be able to drive it to work that day to start the 300mi break in.

I'm sorry there are no pictures with this post, I will add them tomorrow when I am able to get back to the car (I'm at school until after 10 tonight).


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

good news then!


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

PROGRESS AT LAST!!!!

Tonight we were able to get some work done, and did it feel good to see some progress. The head is back together, and back in the car. The timing is complete, and wasn't as bad as I thought to do. All the little pieces are back in, and ready to go. 

Left to do:
Fill Coolant
Fill Oil
Prime Oil and Coolant system
Bleed clutch
Vacuum line for brake booster to intake manifold
Reinstall intake manifold/fuel rail
Reinstall catch can
Throttle body
Intake
Misc checks and hookups…

START!!!


All and all I should have her up and running by Sunday morning.


Now time for a few pics!

New head gasket and ARP head studs









The new valves in their new home. Disregard the green fuzzy stuff, it was from a rag I used during the build.









Top view of the head with the new valves, guides, seals, springs, and rocker spacers.









Rebuilt head back in the car!!!









Alright, that is it for tonight. More tomorrow when she is done. FINGERS CROSSED!!


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## WhatNoGarnish (Jul 6, 2007)

Woooo! Can't wait to see and hear this running!


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

valves: to install em and seal em, what did you do? lap them? (sorta like this)


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Today is Monday!! Any news??

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Well, yes and no.

The car is back together, and running….sort of. We finished it up Saturday evening, and got it on the road. The engine runs, and makes power, but here are the issues to resolve before it is "road ready."

-Once the ECU steps back the idle after warmup, the car stalls. There are no codes thrown, but if you add a little throttle (<10%), it will run. From the troubleshooting I did last night I can only factor that the timing is just a little retarded. Should be an easy fix.

-There is an oil leak at the oil cooler plate. Looks like one of the lines is pissing oil a little, but should be another easy fix. 

-I have to get the latest tune modified a little to pull back the ignition curve. It wasn't knocking for the little time it idled, or when driving for the few miles we tried on Saturday. It did make a little "diesel" noise on acceleration in 2nd gear (the highest gear we got into) at lower speeds. Should be yet another simple fix. 


All around, everything seems okay, just a few bugs to work out. Just glad it ran and didn't have a catastrophic failure. I have a few exams this week, but have a loaner car for the week while I iron out the kinks. I want to have it ready for the short trip to work Thursday for a good shakedown run before rush hour traffic next week.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> valves: to install em and seal em, what did you do? lap them? (sorta like this)


To install the valves in the head I honed each guide for its respective valve stem diameter (per Pete's "recommendation" the guides are now also installed further into the head to account for what I can assume is a cam design encompassing more lift in the valve train). Since each valve was now paired with a corresponding port, I lapped each valve to its seat to make sure it sealed well. After the matching was complete, I installed the valve seals, the valves, the springs/hats/keepers. Part of the build also included installing the lifter spacers to make sure that I don't lose a lifter/rocker at higher RPM, assuming we are ever able to rev these motors above 7200rpm without tearing belts to shreds.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

So, a little update for those of you playing at home.

I pulled the valve cover off tonight, and tested a few things.

-Valves are all intact and straight.
-None of the valve train is loose or slipping
-None of the lifters are missing or damaged
-Mechanical timing on both cams is correct
-All 5 cylinders are building compression at 115+/-5 PSI
-Good fuel and spark on all 5 cylinders

After checking all this, the only thing that we can come up with is that the inanition curve is too advanced, even on the first tune, and it is detonating badly. I will talk to C2 tomorrow and see if they can get me a revision with the updates I have now but with the stock ignition curve. 

More updates tomorrow when I get the tune revised and the battery charged again.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Excited to see progress. 

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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

You running stock plugs?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Better fuel?

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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

^^ this 
Just daily 100, it'll be quick.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

chezzestix said:


> ^^ this
> Just daily 100, it'll be quick.


E85.


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> E85.


Well now you've got the right thought but not the solution to his current problem. Throwing in E85 now (although knock resistant it is) would cause more issues as it goes crazy lean. 100 and you gain a little knock resist not to mention go rich which is all around just a bit safer. (note: not actually endorsing 100 octane on a 91 tune, just would recommend it before E85)

But in premise I do agree with you, flex would be killer with his CR.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

chezzestix said:


> Well now you've got the right thought but not the solution to his current problem. Throwing in E85 now (although knock resistant it is) would cause more issues as it goes crazy lean. 100 and you gain a little knock resist not to mention go rich which is all around just a bit safer. (note: not actually endorsing 100 octane on a 91 tune, just would recommend it before E85)
> 
> But in premise I do agree with you, flex would be killer with his CR.


Hey,

everything runs best just before it breaks. Jus' sayin' :laugh:


BTW, my point was that he should really just go FlexFuel when he gets a custom tune. High comp E85 would have to make crazy power.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

DerekH said:


> You running stock plugs?


I am running NGK, but a hotter plug.



thygreyt said:


> Better fuel?
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


Shell or Cheveron 93 is all that goes in. Short of race fuel there isn't much that I can do in the area.



chezzestix said:


> ^^ this
> Just daily 100, it'll be quick.


There is a shop that sells it here, but $8 a gallon for a daily is not going to work well....the divorce would be quick though.



Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> E85.





chezzestix said:


> Well now you've got the right thought but not the solution to his current problem. Throwing in E85 now (although knock resistant it is) would cause more issues as it goes crazy lean. 100 and you gain a little knock resist not to mention go rich which is all around just a bit safer. (note: not actually endorsing 100 octane on a 91 tune, just would recommend it before E85)
> 
> But in premise I do agree with you, flex would be killer with his CR.





Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Hey,
> 
> everything runs best just before it breaks. Jus' sayin' :laugh:
> 
> ...


I would love to do an E85 tune, but there are only 2 stations within a 100mi radius of my house that sell it. If I was in Ohio or Colorado again then that would work. Georgia doesn't like E85 for some reason or another.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

So, after talking to C2 this morning I am going to be putting the OEM tune on the car tonight so that I can get it up and running without the detonation. Once I have it running, I will get the logs for them so that they can get the latest revision made and see what we can do with that. 

I am hopeful that this will get everything sorted, and the car will hopefully run tonight. :fingers crossed:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

f5racing said:


> I would love to do an E85 tune, but there are only 2 stations within a 100mi radius of my house that sell it. If I was in Ohio or Colorado again then that would work. Georgia doesn't like E85 for some reason or another.


It's probably because y'all like Georgia peaches and peanuts more than Midwestern corn.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> It's probably because y'all like Georgia peaches and peanuts more than Midwestern corn.


I have lived in Georgia for 7 years and I have yet to see a peach that came from this state. Peanuts, onions, and pecans are the only thing I have seen in a field here. There is corn here, but sadly it is mixed into the gasoline...


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

back to topic RRR.

Anyhow, as you can see, im really interested in your build due to that maybe i'll follow your steps in a few months. This is because my group for my mech eng thesis wants to build the highest power NA 2.5L, and i'm using your results as a base on whether or not it will be possible. We already have some data that needs to be met, and well... 11:1 is one of such things.

As always, theory says one thing, and practice shows the real stuff.

Point is: are you planning on dynoing the car after all is said and done? if you want, we (my team and i) can sponsor the dyno as we kinda need the results. lol.

now back onto the good stuff. opcorn:

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> back to topic RRR.
> 
> Anyhow, as you can see, im really interested in your build due to that maybe i'll follow your steps in a few months. This is because my group for my mech eng thesis wants to build the highest power NA 2.5L, and i'm using your results as a base on whether or not it will be possible. We already have some data that needs to be met, and well... 11:1 is one of such things.
> 
> ...



I am planning on putting the car up on the dyno once it is broken in. I have a shop that locally that is going to lend me a little dyno time to do a couple runs over the course of a few weeks to tune and finalize the car. Shoot me a PM with your email and I will send you the PDF files for the dyno graphs and the VCDS logs if you like. I should have them in a few weeks barring any major setbacks.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Little update for the morning.

Last night I was going to attempt to load the original tune on the car to check if it was an ignition timing issue. Unfortunately, my c2uner decided that it was a good night to stop communicating with the pc…

Since I couldn't try that, I decided to run the motor with the valve cover off and check for any issues there. Charged the battery and fired her up, and she ran fine. There is a little valve noise in the lifters, but I have that isolated to a couple lifters that are not allowing enough oil to flow. I will get those cleaned out, and the noise should settle down. 

BIG NEWS! The engine idled well, responded to throttle, and it didn't puke out any codes. 

Since I couldn't try any software resolutions, I decided to drain the oil that I had ran for the twenty or so minutes over the two tests. It came out with no shavings, and minimal metal spec. I ran a few neodymium magnets through the pan, and pulled less than 1mm^3 of metal out of it. I will take this given the amount of work this motor has undergone. 

I will get some fresh oil in the motor tonight, clean out the lifter ports, and see what happens. If all goes well I can get the car running to my work tomorrow.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Well, I just took her out for a spin. Added a couple more miles to it. There is definitely something wrong with the motor. I guess it is time to tear it back apart and see what happened. It is responding to throttle, and not throwing any codes, but there is a good deal of oil smoke coming out of the exhaust and it is down on power. I know there is some break in to this, but even with temperature in the oil and coolant there is still a loud sound coming from the engine. 

I guess I should get used to the little focus that I have rented for a little while longer…


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## spdfrek (Feb 28, 2002)

In for more updates as you get it all working. :thumbup:


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

So the only update I have for the time being is an update on the plan for this build going forward. As of now the motor is not repairable as it stands, thanks in large part to a machining error with the block. I have so little time on the motor that the internals are fine, and the head and valve train are fine. The next steps:

-Remove engine and transmission
-disassemble engine
-send new internals to the guys at IE to have them incorporated into a new short block

While this is happening, here is the to do list:

-Remove A/C lines, condenser, and compressor
-Design/build a new belt system moving the car over to a single belt
*The goal behind this is to reduce accessory rotational speed, as well as to reduce the forces acting on the belt in order to prevent them from coming off so damned much.*
*While I haven't come up with a final design that is CNC ready, I have a couple options that I am working on in Inventor that look promising*
-Remove the audio system and associated materials to bring the car back down to a weight less than that of a Range Rover. The poor girl has gotten a little fat over the years and it is time for her to go on a diet.

This is going to be a much slower process than the original build. I have a feeling that the short deadline is what caused the errors in the machine work, and ultimately caused the motor to not perform.

As a side effect of the motor being out for so long, I get to clean up the engine bay some, remove a bit of unwanted clutter, replace a few seals that have been beat up over the build, etc. I will also perform the needed transmission service, and have the trans housing painted to help it "hide" in the bay. While I don't plan to "shave" the engine bay, I do plan to remove the plugs and wires that are no longer being used (SAI, PCV, etc.). I should be able to replace the remaining rubber hoses with applicable braided AN or silicon lines, and get a little more of the OEM firewall heat shield replaced with reflective shielding. 

When all is said and done it should be something that I am happy with, and hopefully will be done by the end of May. I was fortunate enough that my sister in law had an extra vehicle that I am borrowing until this is complete, thus allowing me to work through it much slower than I was able to when this was my only mode of transportation.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Not the best of news or updates but all in all, it could have been much worse.
Keep it up, and awesome work!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> Not the best of news or updates but all in all, it could have been much worse.
> Keep it up, and awesome work!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Yeah, not exactly the way I had imagined it all going. Just happy it didn't take it out all the new parts.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

sorry for being the annoying one... but whats the new ETA?


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

thygreyt said:


> sorry for being the annoying one... but whats the new ETA?


Well, this is the question isn't it. There is going to be a long delay in this build now. I have the entire driveline out right now, and have begun to do the modifications to the car now. A little R and D work is needed to relocated the alternator down and forward, so this will take time. If I am very lucky, I would say Christmas…lol, but I really don't know at this point.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

f5racing said:


> Design/build a new belt system moving the car over to a single belt


This is in the works by INA. They're doing a 6-rib belt system using a 2.0T FSI a/c compressor.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> This is in the works by INA. They're doing a 6-rib belt system using a 2.0T FSI a/c compressor.


Link to this?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

lessthanalex said:


> Link to this?





Issam Abed said:


> If you are keeping A/C then you are going to want to go with an electric power steering pump (Mercedes-Benz A-Class or VW Polo , etc). You are also going to want to get your hands on an A/C comp from a MK6 GTI with the single pulley ($100-$150 tops). The pulley on the water pump can be pressed off or you can run a spacer between the block and the water pump like I initially did. I wanted to run all the pulleys in 1 plane but that came to a hault due to the belts available in 5 ribs. I am going with a 6 rib prototype from Fluidampr which will definately help when moving all the belts into the same axis.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6895519-2-5l-into-a-Mkl-TT/page2


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> This is in the works by INA. They're doing a 6-rib belt system using a 2.0T FSI a/c compressor.


I have removed the AC compressor already, and that is where the alternator is going. I plan on using one belt, but turning only the alternator and water pump off the crank. I have a spacer being CNC'd a a friend's machine shop for the water pump, and will have an aluminum bracket made for the alternator that will allow for it to mount where the compressor was originally.


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

A little disassembly progress today:










During the tear down the diagnosis became grim.n One of the cylinders was bored wrong, and caused the piston to rattle around. I have 4 good pistons, and 5 good rods left…. I will have to replace the rings and rod bearings, and one of the pistons. Oh yeah, I will have to replace the head… For the 5 whole minutes the car ran, the one piston coming apart put enough metal into the oil to mar up the journals enough in the head to render it unrepairable. So, on to the new title:

Extremely Slow and VERY expensive N.A Build!!

Every new title deserves a little plan update, so here goes.

This is now going to be a "fun" car rather than a daily driver. Since there was such an extreme delay with the completion of the project, due in large part to my own stupidity, I was forced to purchase a daily driver for the mean time. This, however, allows me to take the build a little more to the wild side and less compromise. So here is the new "to do" list:

*Engine:*
Integrated Engineering block with the same rods and 11:1 pistons(of course replacing the bad piston)
Integrated Engineering Ported Head, with +1 intake and exhaust valves
6-spd trans swap
Still removing AC and moving to one belt for higher RPM use
New Exhaust Manifold (will have to fab this one up)

*Everything Else:*
Brake upgrade
Wheel upgrade
New Seats/interior


That should do it for now, boy I am sure glad my wife loves me otherwise I would be living in this car by now.


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## WhatNoGarnish (Jul 6, 2007)

it will be worth it im sure, just make sure you keep us up to date!


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## f5racing (Sep 9, 2012)

Well, some family events have played havoc with this project. Car is now being parted out and scrapped. Better luck next time I hope.


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

f5racing said:


> Well, some family events have played havoc with this project. Car is now being parted out and scrapped. Better luck next time I hope.


SAY IT AIN'T SO! I had such high hopes for this project...


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## WhatNoGarnish (Jul 6, 2007)

Noooooo!


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

So sorry to hear this. Was really looking forward to the build. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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