# Seat Leon Cupra R Build PPT GT3071R



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

*Seat Leon Cupra R Build PPT GT3071R 500whp+*

After some spirited driving up west coast of Norway from sea level to 1300meters height my oil cooked and rods broke. The motor was BAM 225 chipped with downpipe and no oil cooler:


























Decided to buy a Volvo to pull it down from the mountain and build a motor instead of just replacing same BAM 225 unit which would be REALLY costly:










So I got a lowmilage 1.8T AGU motor out from a 97' Audi A3 which has big ports same as AEB. Kept original BAM loom and just swapped out mechnical parts. BAM motor had a VVT head but was easy to uncheck with Eurodyne. That motor got oval cylinders because I ran it at too fat mixture. So I pulled the motor again and bored it to accommodated Mahle 83mm pistons and a stroker 2.0T crankshaft for a total 2008cc.

*Current motormods*:
Eurodyne Maestro 7 on wideband BAM ECU
PPT billet GT3071R with T3 v-band, 63ar
PPT Stainless Steel V-band exhaust manifold
Tial 38mm WG
Hallmann MBC for boost control
Forge Supersize DV
SEM bigport intake with Bosch 70mm TB
Garret 550 IC
Setrab 13 row Oil cooler
2.0T AZG crankshaft
IE rods
Mahle 83mm pistons CR 9:1
Fluidampr
Gates timingbelt
Bosch EV14 910cc injectors
Walbro E85 450LPH intank fuelpump with Arnolds catchtank
42DD stealth catch can
K&N cone filter
AEM water injection 5 gallon tank in the boot. Small nozzle 12" infront of TB


*Drivetrain mods*:
Clutchmasters FX400 6-puck
Wavetrac LSD
TDI 02M ERF 6-speed gearbox
Dunlop 210/650R18 Hard Compound Slicks for trackdays


*Body and other mods*:
Audi S3 upper strut brace
K-sport coilovers
Autotech rear anti roll bar 28mm
AEM oil temp, lambda and boost gauge
Optima Yellow top battery

For 2013 season I will build the head and rev to 8200rpms using a Catcam 3651 intake cam. Keeping oem exhaust cam. Ferrea exhaust valves, guides, springs and lifters. Also I will map in Bosch 1680cc injectors as I'm currently limited to 22psi with my Bosch 910cc injectors on E85.

Max effect on old 1.8T AGU motor with pump gas + WMI: 32psi









Max effect on 2008cc stroker with E85: (injector limited) 22psi










pics or it didnt happen :wave:


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Indeeed :thumbup:


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I love your car man, I keep thinking I should buy a shell to dump my engine turbo setup into and go w/ this B3071R that Arnold's got. I wish I had the energy to dump it all into an MK2.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

tnx, I can't wait to see what the motor will do with intake cam and 30-35psi :laugh:


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

Looking good!


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

your BOV is either really loud or your camera is super sensitive...nice ride!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> your BOV is either really loud or your camera is super sensitive...nice ride!


 Neither, I got an external stereo mic for my GoPro and played around a little. Placed it ON the cone filter in the bay opcorn: 

Forge supersize valve is like a giant 007P.


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

Good idea! What external mic did you use? I know my buddies gopro hero original and the mic was horrible.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

finally!!!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Budsdubbin said:


> Good idea! What external mic did you use? I know my buddies gopro hero original and the mic was horrible.


 I got this one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GOLD-PLAT...io_Portable_CD_Players_ET&hash=item4153081129 

Also got the furry ***** that goes around it and 3m of cable. I can place the mic anywhere in the car then. 

Also you need the Gopro skeleton housing. 


edit: Furry hat* :wave:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

:thumbup::thumbup: bad as$


----------



## Leonturbo (Nov 26, 2012)

Nice build


----------



## KmosK04 (Dec 18, 2012)

Great build! 0-400m time? 0-100km?


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Really good!!  :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

KmosK04 said:


> Great build! 0-400m time? 0-100km?


 100-200kph in 7.9secs


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Rotors regrinded and back on the car. 330x28mm 2-piece. Original 4 pot Brembos with Ferodo DS2500 pads:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Just back from NY with some new parts:

Ferrea exhaust valves
Supertech springs, guides and lifters
Flowmatched Bosch 1680cc 
Catcam 3651 intake cam set at 10 degrees
4 1.8t coils and 4 2.0t coils
Arnolds magical V2 billet wheel

only thing missing is the .72 turbine housing but that will arrive before assembly -tnx Arnold :beer:


----------



## a4e3y5 (Jan 21, 2009)

Uber nice blanket! He he he. Sexy parts rite there...lookin forward to next round of numbers

Sent from my 2005 GLI


----------



## Grahams81 (May 10, 2011)

Nice collection of parts, looking forward to seeing the next stage of the build, always good to see another Leon on here


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

a4e3y5 said:


> Uber nice blanket! He he he.
> 
> Sent from my 2005 GLI


It's where I eat dinner so prolly sauce from last week :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Hopefully in March I'll have it running with new setup.. little dependent on Arnold at PPT.



Do I have to make any tune changes in Maestro for the intake cam?


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Streamed your vids through my stereo - car sounds pretty sweet! Can't wait to see what you do with the new engine :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

All_Euro said:


> Streamed your vids through my stereo - car sounds pretty sweet! Can't wait to see what you do with the new engine :thumbup:


Tnx man. I guess the big changes are cat 3651 intake, PPT V2 wheel and PPT's 72ar housing. Will be interesting to see...


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Dunlop 210/650R18 slicks hard compound. Hoping for better grip at the track this year


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> Tnx man. I guess the big changes are cat 3651 intake, PPT V2 wheel and PPT's 72ar housing. Will be interesting to see...


With the 3651 intake cam, you can expect a ramp-up in power around 5200 rpm; however, if you're going to advance it then you'll see it earlier.

The .72 housing will open up the top end a bit.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Don® said:


> With the 3651 intake cam, you can expect a ramp-up in power around 5200 rpm; however, if you're going to advance it then you'll see it earlier.
> 
> The .72 housing will open up the top end a bit.


Just spoke to Bill at Badger5 where he said someone gained 1000rpms spool AND power going from 82ar to 63ar.... so we'll see. Cam will be sweet for reals. :beer:


----------



## Gu4rDi4N (Mar 11, 2005)

Amazing 

Enviado desde mi GT-I9100 usando Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

alright so I'm mapping in my new Bosch 1680cc injectors and they aint so bad. ONly thing I can see which is weird is a dip in requested AFR from Meastro whenever I leave Lambda 1. I logged it and you can see requested AFR dives to 0.82 then back to what I have in my map around 0.96...


Browse down to 3670rpms:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...dDRjT21mTTdydFcxQndDNFJfZE12V 3c&hl=en#gid=0

These are my lambda maps:



















Cold start with 1680cc injectors:





Hot idle with 1680cc:


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

There's correction factor; check to see if there is another map where you can adjust the correction to minimize its compensation.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Don® said:


> There's correction factor; check to see if there is another map where you can adjust the correction to minimize its compensation.


The dip in requested AFR moves with my full load lambda settings. When I started to richen up around 2000rpm it jumped to lambda 0.82 at 2000rpm. Now I start to richen full load lambda around 3500rpm the dip to 0.81 came at 3500rpms so you would think it's related to full load lambda map ?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Perhaps Power Enrichment map is interfering when it shouldn't? It's supposed to be active only at high torque load...


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm not entirely familiar with Meastro; however it could be that. Make small adjustments and try it out.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Back to the garage tomorrow. Not happy when it's a guessing game.....


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Turned out to be my leaner than lambda 1 setting for cruise. As I run E85 I can lean it out to like 1.05. After I flashed a map with no leaner than lambda 1 the dip went away.

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer: glad you got it sorted, very excited to see the results of proper injectors and you on E85:beer:

NOW GET CAMS


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Installing 3651 intake in like 4weeks =)

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

Vegeta Gti said:


> :beer: glad you got it sorted, very excited to see the results of proper injectors and you on E85:beer:
> 
> NOW GET CAMS


+1 on all three points :beer:


----------



## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

:beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Installing 3651 intake in like 4weeks =)
> 
> Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


so fukn slacking man!!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Not always playtime you know ;-)

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

You'll feel that nice surge in power above 5500 rpm


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer::beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Don® said:


> You'll feel that nice surge in power above 5500 rpm


Sounds good to me  I'll build the head so I can rev it to 8200rpms

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

8500

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> 8500
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


Yes I guess I can but safer to stay below 8200rpm no?

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

you have the valve train to handle it. with that .72 housing, the V2 wheel, stroked, and cam..you will make power to rev limitier on E85 @30psi


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> you have the valve train to handle it. with that .72 housing, the V2 wheel, stroked, and cam..you will make power to rev limitier on E85 @30psi


might turn some heads on the track this year, again.. eace:


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

Vegeta Gti said:


> you have the valve train to handle it. with that .72 housing, the V2 wheel, stroked, and cam..you will make power to rev limitier on E85 @30psi


That sounds like a FUN recipe...


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer::beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Powdercoating done: 











And slicks are on the sparewheels:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Car looks great man, can't wait to see results :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

End of March beginning April I should have some numbers :beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

OM NOM NOM NOM


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

fuukkkyyyreessssssss!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer::beer::beer:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

That is nice :thumbup:


----------



## nomomk3 (Jun 9, 2006)

reading this thread is a great way to start my day.


----------



## darzamat (Jun 1, 2007)

awesome built
incredible car .. :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

So I thought I'd do a dyno before/after installing intake cam, 72ar housing and modified compressor wheel so It will be easier to read directly from a graph what effect the changes made.

First dyno check will be March 8. Stock cams, E85 at 32-35psi. 500whp anyone? :wave:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> So I thought I'd do a dyno before/after installing intake cam, 72ar housing and modified compressor wheel so It will be easier to read directly from a graph what effect the changes made.
> 
> First dyno check will be March 8. Stock cams, E85 at 32-35psi. 500whp anyone? :wave:


:thumbup:opcorn:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> So I thought I'd do a dyno before/after installing intake cam, 72ar housing and modified compressor wheel so It will be easier to read directly from a graph what effect the changes made.
> 
> First dyno check will be March 8. Stock cams, E85 at 32-35psi. 500whp anyone? :wave:


oh yes, your def over 500 now man!!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> oh yes, your def over 500 now man!!
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


After housing, cam and new wheel yes I think so too. But I'll do a dyno in a few days with stock head, 63 housing and v1 wheel :thumbup:


Changed the DV hoses today:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm currently mapping in the 1680cc injectors and the problem I have in Sweden is that we have different E85 in the wintertime. Between November 1st and April 1st it's actually E75. I had a tank E85 in the car from last fall and filled it up today with E75 and noticed ECU started pulling average 8-10% fuel across the range. 

How much powerloss am I looking at running E75 and not E85?


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

Not that much. Should not be at the limit anyway , better safe then sorry.
8-10% seams high! Should only be around 3-4% when shift to e75. But... its possible its not e75 can be e70 also. 
Thats the bad thing whit pump ethanol.
Best whould be to buy aspens e85 always same!


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

btw, how do you like the t04S shrouded 4" inlet 2.5" outlet .70 comp housing...i wanna run that, then eventually go with the .72 turbine housing from arnold as well(and his manifold)


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah it's good but not sure if it made any difference. I didn't notice any, then again I was limited to 22psi with old injectors.

1680cc injectors has 59% duty at 30psi 

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

this is cheap and works well, this way you can tune for e70 and e85, have two maps for different fuel and swap them as necessary: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-36-e85


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> this is cheap and works well, this way you can tune for e70 and e85, have two maps for different fuel and swap them as necessary: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-36-e85


Awesome! Getting one of those. I normally only drive the car in the summertime when they have good fuel in the pumps. Just started season a little early this year.


----------



## darzamat (Jun 1, 2007)

have done your 1st dyno check ?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Alright then.. 

Today I dynoed it for the first time at high boost with 1680cc's and E85. (actually its E75 as we have winter version of E85 now) Timing set to 17 degrees on top initially and advanced by 2 degrees increments to find max timing. Problem we had was the fact my motor just kept responding to timing advance. We went from 17 to 21.5 degrees which seems aggressive at 32psi. No knock. Injector duty was 69% at 32psi. 

Mind you this is stock head, 2008cc motor with Arnolds billet 3071R 63ar: 

520whp and 675nm (roughly 500lb/ft) 









Here are the boost curves in 4th and 5th gear. We stopped before 7000rpm in 5th as drum speed was 325km/h. Not sure tires would hold up.. I'm at 30+ psi around 3600rpm


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

That's pretty impressive! :thumbup::beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

T-Boy said:


> That's pretty impressive! :thumbup::beer:


 Tnx :beer: 

Now I'll rip the head off and install catcam intake and Arnolds 72 housing + his v2 billet wheel. I hoped for 500whp AFTER these mods so... yeah. 

Here's to Arnold at PPT :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:


 I'll say it again Arnold; you make metal art over there :wave:


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Impressive :thumbup: 
Solid Power band. You'll notice a kickup in power above 5500 rpm with the intake cam.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Don® said:


> Impressive :thumbup:
> Solid Power band. You'll notice a kickup in power above 5500 rpm with the intake cam.


 That's exactly what this motor needs + reving to 8200


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)




----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Alright then..
> 
> Today I dynoed it for the first time at high boost with 1680cc's and E85. (actually its E75 as we have winter version of E85 now) Timing set to 17 degrees on top initially and advanced by 2 degrees increments to find max timing. Problem we had was the fact my motor just kept responding to timing advance. We went from 17 to 21.5 degrees which seems aggressive at 32psi. No knock. Injector duty was 69% at 32psi.
> 
> ...


 

told ya man!! now your gonna hit 550+!! 
i should just by the V2 wheel already, damnit!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> told ya man!! now your gonna hit 550+!!
> i should just by the V2 wheel already, damnit!


 
yess sir, you sure did :thumbup: 

If this is the V1 wheel... then what can the V2 wheel do? :beer:


----------



## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Damn, congrats man, them there are impressive #'s. Are you still using water/meth with the E-75??


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i call 553whp after cams, V2 wheel and tuning. 

btw, i love the fact that your car was just hanging out..not fukn strapped down everywhere and just recieving extra load. hate that ****...miss going to my old dyno place in VA on a dynodynamics and sick wheel stops and ****. 


anyway, grats man!!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

One-Eight GTI said:


> Damn, congrats man, them there are impressive #'s. Are you still using water/meth with the E-75??


 Cheers. Still have the 5Gal tank in the boot. Using the smallest nozzle 150cc to spray distilled water/alcohol for cooling only.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i call 553whp after cams, V2 wheel and tuning.
> 
> btw, i love the fact that your car was just hanging out..not fukn strapped down everywhere and just recieving extra load. hate that ****...miss going to my old dyno place in VA on a dynodynamics and sick wheel stops and ****.
> 
> ...


 It's strapped down in the front. There's a stair you can walk down in front and under the car so the subframe is completely locked in place by several straps :wave: 

553whp eh? Thats 53whp higher than my original goal so all of this is just a bonus. Honestly I have no idea what the changes will make. If I get 550whp I'll be over the moon with this motor. The tuner was mighty impressed and started asking questions about this damn 1.8t motor. He normally tunes Porsche's :laugh:


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

WOW, that torque looks awesome CONGRATS! 




...can't wait to go e85 myself


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

How much whp did you get from 17-21 on the ignition. 
On a rolling road without brakes you can throw alot in but on the real road its to much.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> WOW, that torque looks awesome CONGRATS!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Ynx, yeah its the **** :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

vr6 nitrous (sweden) said:


> How much whp did you get from 17-21 on the ignition.
> On a rolling road without brakes you can throw alot in but on the real road its to much.


 From 17-21.5 degrees we gained about 55whp. Tested 5th gear up to 325kph for the resistance and same minus 5whp but 25NM more at the wheels. 

For trackdays I wont run 32psi. More like 27ish.


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

Just give it more!! Seams like the engine like timing 
Then back off a few deg when it dosent give anymore. 
But I whould sugest to get this monster on a hubdyno for the final tuning. 
We have a place not long from you/me that got it. 
www.axheden.se


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

vr6 nitrous (sweden) said:


> Just give it more!! Seams like the engine like timing
> Then back off a few deg when it dosent give anymore.
> But I whould sugest to get this monster on a hubdyno for the final tuning.
> We have a place not long from you/me that got it.
> www.axheden.se


 Tnx Henke. I'll try one more degree after head is built and see what happens. This motor like timing and loves boost for reals. :beer:


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

New head , turbin a/r and cam will be little different on the ignition timing you use right now


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

How do you mean?

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

cams will require less timing, the larger a/r will change that as well as more fuel more timing more boost, but later int he RPM range. 

blah blah


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> cams will require less timing, the larger a/r will change that as well as more fuel more timing more boost, but later int he RPM range.
> 
> blah blah


 So I should pull some timing for the intake cam and add some for the 72 housing you mean? 

-2 + 2 = 0


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

maybe not that linear, with so much fuel on tap and boost you should still be able to add some timing...we will see won't we lol

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> maybe not that linear, with so much fuel on tap and boost you should still be able to add some timing...we will see won't we lol
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


 yess sir :beer: 

I'll pull 4 degrees after the build, start advancing and see what the roller say :thumbup:


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

Gulfstream said:


> yess sir :beer:
> 
> I'll pull 4 degrees after the build, start advancing and see what the roller say :thumbup:


 Yepp that will be smart. But I still sugest you to do the final tuning on a hub dyno or a rolling road with brakes. 
And have in mind that ethanol is not linear as regular gas. As an exampel I have seen saabs e85 and gas timing map and on top its almost the same timing. 
Yes you can throw in more but it will only get you higher cylinder pressure without any knock. And the result is ...pop, so take it easy!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

vr6 nitrous (sweden) said:


> Yepp that will be smart. But I still sugest you to do the final tuning on a hub dyno or a rolling road with brakes.
> And have in mind that ethanol is not linear as regular gas. As an exampel I have seen saabs e85 and gas timing map and on top its almost the same timing.
> Yes you can throw in more but it will only get you higher cylinder pressure without any knock. And the result is ...pop, so take it easy!


 So you think I'm getting close to lifting the head off? 

I mean as I gained 55whp going from 17 to 21.5 degrees on top clearly the motor runs much better at 21.5 degrees. We still never reached max timing.... Just stopped at 21.5 as it seemed to be pretty aggressive.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

What he is saying is you may never see max timing until you pop the motor especially on the dyno hence his suggestion for road tuning. When running e85 I have yet to see knock at all, only misfires at times. Remember that e85 is more susceptible to pre-ignition vs detonation...so if you do blow something, it's probably going to melt a spark plug than say what detonation does which is crack ringlands, scuffed piston skirts and abrasion...the biggest problem with pre-ignition is it will not be indicated by a knock sensor and is almost impossible to tell it's happening before it's too late.


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Log block 034 if you do not have an EGT gauge to see what the temps are like when you are adjusting the timing.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Alright, I'll back the timing to 18-19 and start advancing from there. When I see less gains I stop. 

I have oem EGT gauge hooked up but I cant read it with Maestro. Will try vag com.


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

:thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Some not so good news from the turbo guy. The heatshielding has warped and grinded on the turbine so it's completely out of balance. Need to do the exchangeprogram with Arnold. fuk a duk.

The head is being built with intake cam and exhaust valves tho :thumbup:


----------



## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> Some not so good news from the turbo guy. The heatshielding has warped and grinded on the turbine so it's completely out of balance. Need to do the exchangeprogram with Arnold. fuk a duk.
> 
> The head is being built with intake cam and exhaust valves tho :thumbup:


Damn, that sucks royally... It must take forever to ship stuff to the US:banghead:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah, luckily Arnold is a cool cat so he agreed to overlap so he ship the new chra first and allows me to bolt it on before I ship the old one back to him. This way I wont loose any roadtime :beer:


----------



## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> Yeah, luckily Arnold is a cool cat so he agreed to overlap so he ship the new chra first and allows me to bolt it on before I ship the old one back to him. This way I wont loose any roadtime :beer:


Arnold is a very cool cat... I'm sure it helps that your a pretty good customer of his also:thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

True dat. So I realize I need to get my EGT setup working before I install the new turbo. Wonder what is max EGT I can run safely?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> True dat. So I realize I need to get my EGT setup working before I install the new turbo. Wonder what is max EGT I can run safely?


That's a good question sir. 1000c peak and 900c sustained should be manufacturer's spec. :laugh:


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Egt protection kicks in at 920 afaik on egt equipped cars. 
I certainly wouldnt want to be hitting over 900 regularly. 
Thats at the turbo btw


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

My bam wideband motor came with oem EGT sensor but Maestro never managed to read it so I recently purchased an AEM gauge I'll stick in the cockpit. 

I think if I tune it like you say to stay below 900c for trackdays I'll be in fat city.

Sensor is bolted on to the collector before the turbine.


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Best place for them really.
In the downpipe they can be up to 100 degrees cooler than you'd see at the collector/turbo. 
900 degrees where you have it seems a good temp to not go above regularly.


----------



## cruzanstx (Oct 10, 2011)

nice set up!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Tnx :thumbup:

Coated my WG today. 1000c satin black ceramic coating:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> Tnx :thumbup:
> 
> Coated my WG today. 1000c satin black ceramic coating:


what'd you use? it looks real runny...


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Techline Coating - Black Satin. It's supposed to be applied with a spray. Don't have a spray gun so I used a brush


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

Gulfstream said:


> Alright, I'll back the timing to 18-19 and start advancing from there. When I see less gains I stop.
> 
> I have oem EGT gauge hooked up but I cant read it with Maestro. Will try vag com.


You turned the EGT sensor setting on in diagnostics right? So your saying there is an error with the program? Did you email Eurodyne?

..I always thought it would be cool to use the EGT sensor but I found alot of people with reliability problems when I researching them on google.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> You turned the EGT sensor setting on in diagnostics right? So your saying there is an error with the program? Did you email Eurodyne?
> 
> ..I always thought it would be cool to use the EGT sensor but I found alot of people with reliability problems when I researching them on google.


It was turned on yes and I looked at all the current blocks. The sensor worked before I installed Maestro and not after. Of course it might have failed in between. I did email Tapp about it. 

Anyways, now I get a gauge that will sit on the steering rack and be very easy to read in realtime.

Should have been done from the beginning when I started playing with BT as EGT is critical info when pushing the envelope... but I've been slakcing :banghead:


no more :beer:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> It was turned on yes and I looked at all the current blocks. The sensor worked before I installed Maestro and not after. Of course it might have failed in between. I did email Tapp about it.
> 
> Anyways, now I get a gauge that will sit on the steering rack and be very easy to read in realtime.
> 
> ...


there's always vcds to log block 112 to see egts


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> there's always vcds to log block 112 to see egts


we tested that with my mechanics vagcom, but no dice...

error - error


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I would like to think the top of that wastegate should not have been painted. Its probably made of aluminum to dissipate heat, and with that coating it will trap it in.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> I would like to think the top of that wastegate should not have been painted. Its probably made of aluminum to dissipate heat, and with that coating it will trap it in.


Perhaps... I have one in reserve is all goes to ****


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

As its rather tight around the exhaust manifold and chargepipe(silicone) which has a tendency to burst I had a very skilled chap weld on a 12cm aluminium pipe to extend the compressor housing outlet. He also made a lip on it to attach silicone hose and grinded it nicely on the inside. Top job!


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:thumbup::beer:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> we tested that with my mechanics vagcom, but no dice...
> 
> error - error


eh?
Has the tapp code deleted it? error as it wont read that channel?

egt sensor is your friend/protector.. you dont want more melty melty things dude


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> eh?
> Has the tapp code deleted it? error as it wont read that channel?
> 
> egt sensor is your friend/protector.. you dont want more melty melty things dude


All I got was error messages. Thats why I purchased an AEM EGT gauge to stick in the cockpit.

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

something to do with the tapp code.... can he fix it?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> something to do with the tapp code.... can he fix it?


Mby, I sent him some emails couple months ago.. but I'm not gonna stick around for a solution as I need EGT values asap.

Only place I could stick the gauge is on the steering column rack:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

On Wednesday I'll bolt it back together. Changes are:

New V2 wheel from PPT
72AR turbine housing
Catcam 3651 intake at 110deg + porting of the exhaust ports to match PPT's exhaust mani
Ferrea exhaust valves
All springs, lifters and guides are changed


Can't wait :laugh::laugh:


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Uuff


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

1000000whp! :laugh:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i call 553whp after cams, V2 wheel and tuning




Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Sick!

What does that car weigh? I know nothing about them


----------



## Leonturbo (Nov 26, 2012)

1340kg


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Rod Ratio said:


> Sick!
> 
> What does that car weigh? I know nothing about them


I put it on a weight last year. 1300kg with a half tank. 

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


Well, you where freaky right last time. 550whp from a B3071R leaves me with a usable powerband from 4000-8200rpm on trackdays. Acceptable 

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

One thing I completely forgot was the fact that I needed a new headgasket. I needed a 83mm one and they are hard to come by over here. Luckily Arnold knew about an old 2.0 20v NA motor that has a 92.8 gasket with no overhang which will suit my needs. Back to the stealer..

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

Arnold is the man! :thumbup::beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Catcam 3651 at 110degrees installed:









Exhaust runners ported to match gasket:









He also smoothed out the intake runners some:









Ferrea exhaust valves, Supertech springs, guides and lifters:









New PPT V2 wheel is bolted on and balanced:









Best ménage à trois ever:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> New PPT V2 wheel is bolted on and balanced:


nice how small that centre hub is on the new billet wheel... more flow.. :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> nice how small that centre hub is on the new billet wheel... more flow.. :thumbup:


Yeah, it's neat. I guess that saves some grams weight as well as providing more flow. 

win-win :beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I need to get my car back together, get it legal, running diploid for a bit then send Arnold my turbo for the wheel upgrade. 

Hold me over until i get a block to build and stroke

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

About bloody time Cris, I believe Hawaii has been playing that record for a while  

First thing I have to do after rebuild is MOT as well. I wanted to get it done before I installed cam but my startermotor died same day I had planned to have them inspect it, and if you can't start the motor during MOT ... well; FAIL. 

Now, the only road I legally can drive is the shortest way to a MOT test center. Nice.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Lol I feel you man I gotta do the safety thing, I'm going through withdrawal haven't driven it since middle of February.

Pretty stoked though, I hope everything goes well with yours. I definitely see making 550 plus

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Fired it up today with the new parts. Almost **** a brick when I first started it. Didn't know the dry lifters would be THAT noisy eace: The noise stopped after a few minutes running. I notice absolutely no extra lag down low with the 72ar housing and the intake cam. If anything it feels stronger... really a joy to drive on the street. Once I'm happy with the fuelling Ill try 8000rpms. 

For some reason my WG boost is now 21psi vs 17psi before the mods(15psiWG spring). I wonder if it has to do with a much better flowing billet wheel... It's a TiaL 38mm WG.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Glad to hear it! Sounds good.

The higher boost is probably the more efficient wheel and your intake cam combo :thumbup:


I was talking to a guy on here, he said the stock fuel rail goes static at 90psi. I know you haven't cranked it up yet, but was wondering if you were ever experiencing this before?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

O you do need to get on integrated engineering fuel rail I love mine surprisingly enough it actually made the car feel happier the idle wasn't so forced also I got the gonzo tuning at the same time so that may have been it but it is sexy

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## amorgio (Nov 16, 2009)

After seeing this and just talking to Arnold, I'm definitely upgrading to the 72ar housing and billet v2 wheel. :thumbup::beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> Glad to hear it! Sounds good.
> 
> The higher boost is probably the more efficient wheel and your intake cam combo :thumbup:
> 
> ...


I did run the stock fuel rail at 5.2bars which is 75psi and that's the area where I'm gonna stay. Will test 35psi boost which is what.. 5.4bars/78psi rail a few times if EGT allows to see what happens but I won't run that on a regular basis. 

I'll remove one of the WG springs which will make it a 7-8psi WG and see what happens then.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> O you do need to get on integrated engineering fuel rail I love mine surprisingly enough it actually made the car feel happier the idle wasn't so forced also I got the gonzo tuning at the same time so that may have been it but it is sexy
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


Is there any documentation there is anything to gain by this? I do have ok fuel pressure, ok injector duty...


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

amorgio said:


> After seeing this and just talking to Arnold, I'm definitely upgrading to the 72ar housing and billet v2 wheel. :thumbup::beer:


Do it man! this setup feels solid. Will do fine tuning on the dyno as soon as I get the chance.

:beer:


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Well, wastegate spring pressure should be the same, no matter what turbo you have in it. When you buy a spring for Xpsi of pressure, you don't have to provide the turbo you are running, right?
Have you checked for leaks in the piping to the wastegate?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

HidRo said:


> Well, wastegate spring pressure should be the same, no matter what turbo you have in it. When you buy a spring for Xpsi of pressure, you don't have to provide the turbo you are running, right?
> Have you checked for leaks in the piping to the wastegate?


My mechanic said it's because the larger 72ar turbine housing has less backpressure, which make sense. 

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Passed MOT today:


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Worked around the system? :laugh: We do the same in Portugal :laugh:

About the wastegate, isn't the wastegate in the exhaust manifold? Before the turbine? So the pressure in the intake manifold will open the wastegate. I'm not sure the turbine has to do with it... But I could be wrong though 

EDIT:
Also, if you had a compressor in your car you could open the wastegate, without "turbine intervention" So, as long as you have 15psi of boost in the intake pipe, you should have 15psi in the wastegate diaphragm, which will make you stop making more boost.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Nope, it was a close call tho... They where interested in the turbo setup, but as there are very few LCR's in Sweden I managed to pass it :beer:

I think what he said make sense. The larger turbine housing has less backpressure and will need to spin the turbo faster in order to make the same pressure to open WG.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

It has to be because of the bigger wheel. You maybe getting close to needing a slightly bigger WG depending on boost behavior:

Let's say your target is 5psi

Normal boost rise should work like this: when set to say 5 psi, boost shoots up to 7, then holds 5 psi
Spiking is when boost shoots up to 9, then 7, 8, 6, 5
Boost creep is when boost shoots up to 6, then 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Spiking and boost creep is when boost shoots up to 6, then 7, 6, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10






> I did run the stock fuel rail at 5.2bars which is 75psi and that's the area where I'm gonna stay. Will test 35psi boost which is what.. 5.4bars/78psi rail a few times if EGT allows to see what happens but I won't run that on a regular basis.


are you taking atmospheric pressure into consideration?



> I'll remove one of the WG springs which will make it a 7-8psi WG and see what happens then.


don't forget that you shouldn't really go over double the WG spring as your max pressure. So, if you run 8psi spring, you really shouldn't boost more than 16psi :thumbup:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

18T_BT said:


> don't forget that you shouldn't really go over double the WG spring as your max pressure. So, if you run 8psi spring, you really shouldn't boost more than 16psi :thumbup:



Why do you say this?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Yeah this doesnt add up. Plenty of pros and engineers do it. though I would rather run a slightly larger wg spring, it would make it impossible to run boost by gear in the psi settings myself and many others want or do run

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Why would I want the valve to open earlier Bill? Realistically, I'd rather rely on the spring and less on vacuum restriction.  Essentially, reducing premature WG creep, when the WG opens it is wasted exhaust pulse = less less energy to spin the turbine, slower boost onset. Personally, I try and keep withing 2-5psi of WG spring 'rate' to max boost pressure.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

This 2-3psi within WG spring is new to me... Might have to look into this.
On a different note I got my EGT sensor up and running and my car runs hot. 650c at cruise and 900c already at 21psi.... what the`?? 

I'm writing a new map now where I add another degree at wot and 3 degrees at cruise... Fattening up mixture from lambda 0.82 down to 0.80 

Suggestions?


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

Mät mottrycket om du inte kommer på nån lösning..
Montera bromsrör första 30cm samt slang in i kupen och sen till en laddtrycks mätare.
Mottrycket ska vara under laddtrycket. Sticker mottrycket iväg så gör även avgastempen det.

Kan du logga realtids tändningen?
Dvs ifall den ev drar bort några grader via kompensering så som luft temp tex.

Nåt är fel när du bara laddar 1.5bar och den går förbi 900grader med ok tändning.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I agree with you BT but a lot of people don't want to run strictly a waste gate spring they want to have a low boost setting which is generally for our crowd around one bar and then I heart booth setting which is generally two bar.

If I were only running to bar or higher I would absolutely do exactly what you said and just run away wastegate spring set up only, for boost control

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

vr6 nitrous (sweden) said:


> Mät mottrycket om du inte kommer på nån lösning..
> Montera bromsrör första 30cm samt slang in i kupen och sen till en laddtrycks mätare.
> Mottrycket ska vara under laddtrycket. Sticker mottrycket iväg så gör även avgastempen det.
> 
> ...


I've done some research on the interwebs and using a 500whp turbomotor you should at least have a 3" turboback. Well, I have 3" to cat, then oem clamped 2.5" to tip which have a 2" bottleneck.. maybe this play a part in my high EGT's. 

Yes, I can log timing realtime. No timing pull. 12c IAT at redline.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

My exhaust is the same, 60% is 3"the rest is 2.5 maybe a touch larger...with a "muffler"

I saw egts go down with less timing and high 11 afr. But that is my setup

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## rogerius (Jun 14, 2004)

Gulfstream said:


> I've done some research on the interwebs and using a 500whp turbomotor you should at least have a 3" turboback. Well, I have 3" to cat, then oem clamped 2.5" to tip which have a 2" bottleneck.. maybe this play a part in my high EGT's.
> 
> Yes, I can log timing realtime. No timing pull. 12c IAT at redline.


where is your pyrometer sensor placed?
I am also seeing in excess of 950 if I keep WOT longer. AFR=12, IAT =ambient, timing=17-18.
Should be around 400hp cranck, 3" DP with 2.75" to muffler 2x2".
I don't know how to tackle this.
For the time being I step off the gas pedal as soon as I see 850 EGT.
Very intersted in what u will do.:beer:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

18T_BT said:


> Why would I want the valve to open earlier Bill? Realistically, I'd rather rely on the spring and less on vacuum restriction. Essentially, reducing premature WG creep, when the WG opens it is wasted exhaust pulse = less less energy to spin the turbine, slower boost onset. Personally, I try and keep withing 2-5psi of WG spring 'rate' to max boost pressure.


Hmmm. I dont quite understand your approach?

If wg can stay shut across the whole expected rpm & max boost range, and you still have N75 duty cycle to achieve your desired max boost, then there would be no issue on a lower actuator.

For high powered fwd cars, you want Range of adjustment for Tractable power. I use gear based boost on high power fwd 1.8t cars which with appropriate wg spring (lighter than you suggest) give this range of adjustment so tractable power in lower gears is possible.

Creep is wg size inability to spill off excess flow to control turbine speed.

The wg is kept closed by N75 duty cycle in the mapping to get fast spool.. It does'nt require a big wg spring to achieve that. I am talking the ecy controlling the boost here however, on n75 control.. as thats what I do.. and allows me to use my gear based boost mapping..

Single port wg is what I am using also.. Tial but only using lower port.


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> This 2-3psi within WG spring is new to me... Might have to look into this.
> On a different note I got my EGT sensor up and running and my car runs hot. 650c at cruise and 900c already at 21psi.... what the`??
> 
> I'm writing a new map now where I add another degree at wot and 3 degrees at cruise... Fattening up mixture from lambda 0.82 down to 0.80
> ...


melty melty...... Explains the issue you had on the higher boost.
why tapp could not make a file which uses the factory egt is beyond me..


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I agree with you BT but a lot of people don't want to run strictly a waste gate spring they want to have a low boost setting which is generally for our crowd around one bar and then I heart booth setting which is generally two bar.
> 
> If I were only running to bar or higher I would absolutely do exactly what you said and just run away wastegate spring set up only, for boost control
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


boost control is what the ecu is for tho 
What you describe is ON/OFF boost control with a higher threshold.. MBC/EBC style unless linked to an rpm for preogression... (just how me7 works... N75 control ftw)


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> I've done some research on the interwebs and using a 500whp turbomotor you should at least have a 3" turboback. Well, I have 3" to cat, then oem clamped 2.5" to tip which have a 2" bottleneck.. maybe this play a part in my high EGT's.
> 
> Yes, I can log timing realtime. No timing pull. 12c IAT at redline.


the high power cars we have run with the exception of the CTS thing, which was too small a top section DP (2.5") they are all 3" turbo back. Hell even our little hybrid k03 lupo runs 3" turbo back


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> the high power cars we have run with the exception of the CTS thing, which was too small a top section DP (2.5") they are all 3" turbo back. Hell even our little hybrid k03 lupo runs 3" turbo back


What EGT's do you see at 1.5bars Bill?

I have booked in my car at a shop to build a custom 3" all the way back first week in May. I need to go pretend I work again so no more time for troubleshooting eace:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

rogerius said:


> where is your pyrometer sensor placed?
> I am also seeing in excess of 950 if I keep WOT longer. AFR=12, IAT =ambient, timing=17-18.
> Should be around 400hp cranck, 3" DP with 2.75" to muffler 2x2".
> I don't know how to tackle this.
> ...


Thermocouple sensor in the collector before turbine


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> What EGT's do you see at 1.5bars Bill?
> 
> I have booked in my car at a shop to build a custom 3" all the way back first week in May. I need to go pretend I work again so no more time for troubleshooting eace:


on tufftys gt30 s3, 1.6-1.8bar gets 780'c 2" from turbine on outlet.. Allow +100'c gradient from where you have yours mounted, and its high 800's just short of 900'c

Std egt protection on LCR would begin fuel dump from 920'c as reference.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Ran today with only 1 spring in the WG: Steady 12psi - so WG size is fine.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

badger5 said:


> Hmmm. I dont quite understand your approach?
> 
> If wg can stay shut across the whole expected rpm & max boost range, and you still have N75 duty cycle to achieve your desired max boost, then there would be no issue on a lower actuator.
> 
> ...


As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I don't need boost by gear, so if you have a large gap between boost in gear 1 and 2 and then 3 -4 -5 are the same say 1 and 2 being 10psi and 3-4-5 being 30psi, then I can understand. The solenoids are pretty good at controlling boost, but aren't on/off switches so as pressure rises they slowly start to crack open the WG, bleeding boost. I'd rather have it be mechanical with springs if I know my target. Don't get me wrong an MBC/EBC are good tuning tools.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Gulfstream said:


> Ran today with only 1 spring in the WG: Steady 12psi - so WG size is fine.



:thumbup:


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

So, if all is good with this spring, you should have the same boost, before and after the turbine. Either an issue before, or an issue now is making it different.
When will you check it again on a dyno? I'm curious to see the differences


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

You and me both buddy. I'll build a 3" catback on May 2nd then I'm off to the dyno the next day or so.

:beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

ok so i got my car running and coolant system solidfied finally...so i was curious about my EGT's now versus 3 years ago. since my car is on a base file we made from scratch, i know it will improve but my idle EGT's are 725c....

i don't feel very good about that at all lol. i assume once driving, and fueling and timing are fine tuned, with meth it will be lower at WOT.

sorry to bust yer thread O, but i want to get some collective answers from the brains, as i know this is too high lol


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> ok so i got my car running and coolant system solidfied finally...so i was curious about my EGT's now versus 3 years ago. since my car is on a base file we made from scratch, i know it will improve but my idle EGT's are 725c....
> 
> i don't feel very good about that at all lol. i assume once driving, and fueling and timing are fine tuned, with meth it will be lower at WOT.
> 
> sorry to bust yer thread O, but i want to get some collective answers from the brains, as i know this is too high lol


Idle EGT's at 725c is high.. I get 600-650c while driving on Highway/Interstate speeds. Around 500c at idle... will check tomorrow. I removed one spring from my WG and I have a steady 12psi boost now all the way to 8000rpms meaning my 38mm WG is good enough for this turbo. Same EGT's at 12psi as 21psi. 950c at 7000rpms.... Hopefully 3" catback will take away 50c or so. 

saull' good man :laugh:

-What's your idle timing Cris?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Changes made: 

PPT V2 comp wheel 
Catcam 3651 intake, stock exhaust cam 
PPT 72ar housing 
3" catback exhaust 

= 77whp more :laugh: 


I had 520whp at 32psi before these changes and today it made 597whp at 32psi. Altho it wont keep the boost indicating the turbo is maxed out. I also tested 25psi as this is what I'll do on trackdays: 480whp. 

Timing on top is 22degrees. Tested 23 and 24 but made no difference in fact 24degrees lost a few whp above 7000rpm. 

32psi. 










25psi: 










32psi boost: 









25psi boost:


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

That is simply insane. 
7psi giving an extra 100hp too. Wow. 
What is the torque? 

I have a friend who will be incredibly exited to see this for his own build.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

superkarl said:


> That is simply insane.
> 7psi giving an extra 100hp too. Wow.
> What is the torque?
> 
> I have a friend who will be incredibly exited to see this for his own build.


 max torque we saw was 740wNM which is like 545ft.lbf at the wheels. Man we came sooooooooo close to 600whp. But there was just no way. :wave:


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Just call it 600 man! Lol.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

superkarl said:


> Just call it 600 man! Lol.


 Good thing in Europe we refer to motor effect in BHP not WHP. So me got 636hp :laugh:


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

As do i (UK) 
What dyno was it on? 
And is it minus 10-15% for pump fuel compared to e85?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

superkarl said:


> As do i (UK)
> What dyno was it on?
> And is it minus 10-15% for pump fuel compared to e85?


 Civinco dyno outside Gothenborg. Just before me there was a 2.2L stroker with a 35R at 29psi who made 544whp. 

10-15% whatnow?


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

wow, great numbers man...calling Arnold now  but srsly


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

That's an impressive setup! :beer: 
Must be fun on the track with that kind of power. :laugh:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Good thing I got those slicks for the front


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Hope you get traction with those slicks considering the TQ


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Nicely done sir! ! :beer::beer:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i def know i'm sitting on 500/just under..jesus man...you need the full set of 3651's lol 600+ lol 

but since tuning and dyno..how is it to drive, to track etc? or has that not come to pass yet ?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i def know i'm sitting on 500/just under..jesus man...you need the full set of 3651's lol 600+ lol
> 
> but since tuning and dyno..how is it to drive, to track etc? or has that not come to pass yet ?


 I tested once at 25psi up to like 120mph and it's frightening tbh. Just hang on and keep it between the white lines. Some grooves in the road don't do any good either. 

At a smooth track I think it will be a bag of fun with slicks. Will run it at 25psi for trackdays and see how it works out. 

My god yes, 3hp away from 600. My god... :heart:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> Hope you get traction with those slicks considering the TQ


 me too :laugh:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer::beer::heart::heart:


----------



## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Great numbers sir! :thumbup: 
Looks like boost comes on pretty fast as well.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Three3Se7en said:


> Great numbers sir! :thumbup:
> Looks like boost comes on pretty fast as well.


 Thank you sir. Yes, I'm very happy with the effect of the changes made. Didn't loose much to speak about below 4000rpm while above it's all gains. 77whp at peak hp is a step in the right direction. 

Now I just need a trackday to go terrorize some stiff upper lip Ferrari boys -jk, they are mostly cool guys :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)




----------



## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> Thank you sir. Yes, I'm very happy with the effect of the changes made. *Didn't loose much to speak about below 4000rpm* while above it's all gains. 77whp at peak hp is a step in the right direction.
> 
> Now I just need a trackday to go terrorize some stiff upper lip Ferrari boys -jk, they are mostly cool guys :thumbup:


 Very impresive! I did a quick dyno overlay before and after changes (32 psi). I calculated that you lost about 200 RPMs average in spool (torque curve) below 4500 RPMs.


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

WOW - nice work!!! Congrats :beer:


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

insane lol I'd say that would be a 20valve record for the gt3071 regardless of wheel. Seriously considering Arnold's compressor wheel conversion for my gt3076


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

mainstayinc said:


> Very impresive! I did a quick dyno overlay before and after changes (32 psi). I calculated that you lost about 200 RPMs average in spool (torque curve) below 4500 RPMs.


 Neat, look at hp curve. No losses to speak of below 4500. I think this setup is working out pretty good. Only thing I'd like ideal is not to have such drop off on top but I guess that would mean a step up in turbosize and the following lag down low. So, meh to that :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Budsdubbin said:


> insane lol I'd say that would be a 20valve record for the gt3071 regardless of wheel. Seriously considering Arnold's compressor wheel conversion for my gt3076


 Yeah, it seems to work perty nice :beer: 

I think my next step is awd.


----------



## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> Neat, look at hp curve. *No losses to speak of below 4500*. I think this setup is working out pretty good. Only thing I'd like ideal is not to have such drop off on top but I guess that would mean a step up in turbosize and the following lag down low. So, meh to that :thumbup:


 Yeah. Horsepower-wise, I think it's negligible. 



Gulfstream said:


> Neat, look at hp curve. No losses to speak of below 4500. I think this setup is working out pretty good. *Only thing I'd like ideal is not to have such drop off on top but I guess that would mean a step up in turbosize and the following lag down low*. So, meh to that :thumbup:


 You're only losing 100 HP from 6000 to 8000 RPMs. Not bad at all. 

Suggestion: Swap out your V2 GT3071R compressor wheel with a GTX3071R wheel and re-dyno. I'm sure a few people on here would like to see how these compare.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

not sure a gtx3071r would perform all that much better than this so that could possibly just be a waist of hard earned cash


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

It would be an interesting comparison. The GTX has a bigger inducer so I think it MIGHT have a flow edge while being a bit more surge prone and laggier for sure. But comparison at this stage might be a bit of a moot point as you may have hit a bit of a wall on the turbine side. The comp will always be a slave to the turbine it is attached to.. Great stuff here however :thumbup: 

Edit: One thing is that you dont have an antisurge housing so you are not bleeding off a bit of intake like the GTX turbos. This is by design to not sacrifice power so you're utilizing everything the turbo is ingesting which also helps spool. Antisurge housings, while they look cool are there to protect the turbo in the event of surge. There is a tradeoff of a few ponies and response as a result of this so this may also play a factor...


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Good to know arnold.

Now I need to send my turbo back to purchase the v2 wheel:beer:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I think there is a GTX3576R in my future. Who's got the crystal ball? 

:beer:


----------



## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> I think there is a GTX3576R in my future. Who's got the crystal ball?
> 
> :beer:


 That turbo is capable of 780 HP on E85 or about 680 WHP! You coud definately run this turbo with your upgraded valve head.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

So I want to get this setup over 6 bills just because :laugh: Where can I find 3whp? 

I know my alignment is less than perfect so I'll get that done. I had no spark blowout with 0.6mm gap so I'll open them to 0.7mm. I'll have a test pipe made and will remove the cat for the dyno only and I'll also take off the airfilter. 

I also will put the 2nd spring back into the WG. I removed one spring because 15psi springs became 21psi with the new turbine housing. 


The goal is 600whp  


Anything else?


----------



## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Gulfstream said:


> So I want to get this setup over 6 bills just because :laugh: Where can I find 3whp?
> 
> I know my alignment is less than perfect so I'll get that done. I had no spark blowout with 0.6mm gap so I'll open them to 0.7mm. I'll have a test pipe made and will remove the cat for the dyno only and I'll also take off the airfilter.
> 
> ...


 Do you have an adjustable cam gear?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Three3Se7en said:


> Do you have an adjustable cam gear?


 No, Arnold set the intake cam to 110 deg


----------



## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Have you read IE's tech article on their cam gear? They advanced it 2 degrees and picked up some spool and peak HP. Check it out: 
http://blog.intengineering.com/archives/1430


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Three3Se7en said:


> Have you read IE's tech article on their cam gear? They advanced it 2 degrees and picked up some spool and peak HP. Check it out:
> http://blog.intengineering.com/archives/1430


 That might be something for my next build. For now I just need to pull 3whp out of the hat.


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


>


 inertia only dyno?


----------



## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

+3 more HP and this is what happens:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> inertia only dyno?


 I don't know how the dyno is built or measure the effect Bill. Heres a link to the tuner who run the dyno: 

http://civinco.se/


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Three3Se7en said:


> +3 more HP and this is what happens:


 Time will tell :wave:


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

Rototest rototest rototest


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

vr6 nitrous (sweden) said:


> Rototest rototest rototest


 yes yes yes, next month :thumbup:


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Between you and veg Im so happy I went with a 3071. Between you car and his, with said powerbands, have to make for killer street cars that hand out regular ass whoopings.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I tried to pull out the EGT sensor a bit so it wont vibrate and brake off into the turbine. It's 3cm into the collector now but I could not get that stopper on the probe to move... fuuu 










Motor in question:


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Anyway to mount the probe in the WG dump tube? You won't get EGT's when the WG isn't open, but aren't you more concerned with them @ WOT anyway? That's the only way I can think of making not in the exhaust manifold/turbo. That's why I never installed my EGT, so worried it would break off. I remember reading someone on here had that happen to them actually.


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> I tried to pull out the EGT sensor a bit so it wont vibrate and brake off into the turbine. It's 3cm into the collector now but I could not get that stopper on the probe to move... fuuu


 If i'm not mistaken that stopper gets squished when you tighten the cap and is a one time use only. You can pull if off by force but will not be able to use it again and require a new stopper. You can try and reuse it but you could end up with an exhaust leak.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

T-Boy said:


> If i'm not mistaken that stopper gets squished when you tighten the cap and is a one time use only. You can pull if off by force but will not be able to use it again and require a new stopper. You can try and reuse it but you could end up with an exhaust leak.


 Sounds about right. It would NOT move at all. AEM instructions was insert the probe until it reaches the center of the runner/collector. I did and now everybody tells me it can vibrate and brake off and that 1.5cm is enough to get a good reading.... 

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Exhaust cam....still running meth?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

That appears to be a compression fitting, which will not come off and be reusable.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Exhaust cam....still running meth?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


 Well, not superkeen on exhaust cam as it looks like I'd loose engine response below 4k. 

I still have the old WMI setup but I spray a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol and only from the smallest nozzle.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Here's what I did today:


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

Wow thats fast!!


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Well, not superkeen on exhaust cam as it looks like I'd loose engine response below 4k.
> 
> I still have the old WMI setup but I spray a 50/50 mix of water and denatured alcohol and only from the smallest nozzle.


 Not that much 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

imagine if you had traction!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> imagine if you had traction!


 I have slicks but they are not road legal :beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i thought you had plenty of traction, but still..like i say about my POS...it's spinning yet accelerating like a mofo. 


what is this "street legal" you speak of????:laugh:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i thought you had plenty of traction, but still..like i say about my POS...it's spinning yet accelerating like a mofo.
> 
> 
> what is this "street legal" you speak of????:laugh:


 Black and whites over here are not so forgiving if they see you with slicks on the street. Could be expensive :wave:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

booooooooo. the bastards


----------



## KmosK04 (Dec 18, 2012)

WOW! That was fast!  what's the dashboard on your right? Looks interesting


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

KmosK04 said:


> WOW! That was fast!  what's the dashboard on your right? Looks interesting


It's Torque pro app for Droids. :thumbup:


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Your car...is awesome hahaha


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

suffocatemymind said:


> Your car...is awesome hahaha


I am inclined to agree :laugh:


----------



## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

I love it too. 

Been watching for a long time. opcorn:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Tnx guys :thumbup:

First week in July me and a buddy from my old Fuelslut club in Orlando are going to the Nordschleife to get some laps done. I'll make sure to record my new personal lap record with this new monster. My bud from Orlando has an LT1 with a GT40 turbo kit sitting in the garage... 900whp+ setup :heart:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

what lambda do you run on your e85 fuel?
i have been offered some to try... kinda tempted to see what my racecar thinks of it.

cheers
:thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> what lambda do you run on your e85 fuel?
> i have been offered some to try... kinda tempted to see what my racecar thinks of it.
> 
> cheers
> :thumbup:


Lambda 1 until spoolup then down to 0.82 all the way up to redline. 1.06 for lean cruise.

You'll need to add about 40% to your injector constant and you'll be in the ballpark :beer:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Lambda 1 until spoolup then down to 0.82 all the way up to redline. 1.06 for lean cruise.
> 
> You'll need to add about 40% to your injector constant and you'll be in the ballpark :beer:


my racecar is on standalone.. no fuel constant for me. fuel tables and stuff.

750+830cc injectors per cylinder. kind of hoping combined is enough for my gt3582/precision62 hybrid when i wind it up a little


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> my racecar is on standalone.. no fuel constant for me. fuel tables and stuff.
> 
> 750+830cc injectors per cylinder. kind of hoping combined is enough for my gt3582/precision62 hybrid when i wind it up a little


Nice, you'll be a believer in notime. I gained 100NM just by swapping to E85 at same boost.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Gulfstream said:


> Nice, you'll be a believer in notime. I gained 100NM just by swapping to E85 at same boost.



Not to mention all the extra torque and by that I mean shifting the curve to the left with the said TQ


----------



## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Why oh why isnt E85 regularly available in the UK! when I search the net for filling points in the UK it says theres aparently none now.....its not fair :banghead:

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Nice, you'll be a believer in notime. I gained 100NM just by swapping to E85 at same boost.


what duty cycle (or injector ms + rpm) do your 1680cc injectors run to currently?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> what duty cycle (or injector ms + rpm) do your 1680cc injectors run to currently?


1.3ms at idle and at the last wot run I had on the dyno is had 11.66ms at 8041rpm = 78%


Idle:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

So my generator is dying. 12.8-13.3V while cruising. A good chance to dial in my BVC vaules


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Tested new slicks on trackday today but couldnt run it hard because of a lean condition a few times. I probably have a tired alternator that cannot supply current to the fuel pump when it gets too hot... Only a few laps then I get lean condition. 

Good thing was the grip from slicks. Insane improvement compared to dot tires :thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer::beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## darzamat (Jun 1, 2007)

Do you recommend %15 of ethanol ? We dont have e85 here just regular 97 octane. but i can find ethanol from a chemical facory but it is very expensive. 

And after ethanol do you reccomend me to use methanol. 50 50 mixture of water

Thank you


----------



## T-Boy (Jul 16, 2003)

Jealous! :beer:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

darzamat said:


> Do you recommend %15 of ethanol ? We dont have e85 here just regular 97 octane. but i can find ethanol from a chemical facory but it is very expensive.
> 
> And after ethanol do you reccomend me to use methanol. 50 50 mixture of water
> 
> Thank you


 e85 would be better but you can get very close/similar results with w/m injection.:beer:


----------



## darzamat (Jun 1, 2007)

i was planing to use e15 + 50 50 water meth for cooling

do you reccomend not to use e15 and just use meth ?

thank you


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

darzamat said:


> i was planing to use e15 + 50 50 water meth for cooling
> 
> do you reccomend not to use e15 and just use meth ?
> 
> thank you


Best I can get is 94 octane E10 where I live & I run 50/50 water meth along with it... works nicely.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

So I ordered a new alternator. Should excite my fuelpump again :beer:

2nd issue I had during this short trackday was a large amount of oil in the catch can. 1L after only 10 laps. The oil was fresh, not slag. I suspect it's from the crank... blowby? 

I checked comp after boring it and it was close to 13bars in all 4 with 12.8bars in cyl 4.


----------



## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

When I done my last trackday my catch can was full to the brim after each sesion with fresh oil which after speaking to a few people turns out to be that under really heavy braking oil was sloshing up the front of the block and going up the breather pipe to the catch can

Ive never had this problem on the road but on the track day I went through 1 1/2 gallons of oil! The problem was no where near as bad if I was a bit easier on the brakes or ran a lower oil level but the later made me feel uncomfortable

Needless to say the new engine has got a baffled sump 










Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

StaceyS3 said:


> When I done my last trackday my catch can was full to the brim after each sesion with fresh oil which after speaking to a few people turns out to be that under really heavy braking oil was sloshing up the front of the block and going up the breather pipe to the catch can
> 
> Ive never had this problem on the road but on the track day I went through 1 1/2 gallons of oil! The problem was no where near as bad if I was a bit easier on the brakes or ran a lower oil level but the later made me feel uncomfortable
> 
> ...


Good point you make there. I think I have a similar issue even if I already have a baffled sump from INA... What I'll do is remove the vacuum from intake manifold and just run the block breather together with upper breather to catch can. There will be vacuum from the TIP pipe when I'm boosting and only ventilation when I'm on the brakes. This way there should be no vacuum to suck up the oil during braking. Will run the brake assist directly to intake mani...


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I modified my PCV system some. I removed the intake manifold from the equation by replacing the jet suction pump and all those lines with a single silicone hose from lower breather to a T that joins upper breather to CC.

I use my old 034 steel PCV valve as a brake booster check valve.


























From last trackday:











As I had lean condition 3 times I checked my CR and to my surprise it's better than just after the head build at solid 200psi in all 4 cylinders. :beer::beer::beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Btw, here are some of the other participants on the trackday club I drive in Norway. As I had alternator problems I had some time to mess around with cams:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

And here is one of the few laps I got in. Note rear end slippy with slicks up front :


----------



## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow, your ass end definatly is definatly loose Looks like an awesome time, your car halls ass:thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

yeah, I need to get some semi slicks and stick them on the rear axle. R888 is ordered :beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer::beer:

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

betcha wish u were on mainland with a race track now dont ya island boy! LOL:laugh:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

sick bro!!:thumbup::thumbup:

can't wait to Finnish my car and get it on the track:wave:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> So I ordered a new alternator. Should excite my fuelpump again :beer:
> 
> 2nd issue I had during this short trackday was a large amount of oil in the catch can. 1L after only 10 laps. The oil was fresh, not slag. I suspect it's from the crank... blowby?
> 
> I checked comp after boring it and it was close to 13bars in all 4 with 12.8bars in cyl 4.


I suspect the oils from the oil surge... slicks = muchos oil throwing about in the sump..
baffled sump I hope? If its a copy of the seat sport one the max level I run is 1/2 way on the hatched area between max/min else it chucks it out.


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Good point you make there. I think I have a similar issue even if I already have a baffled sump from INA... What I'll do is remove the vacuum from intake manifold and just run the block breather together with upper breather to catch can. There will be vacuum from the TIP pipe when I'm boosting and only ventilation when I'm on the brakes. This way there should be no vacuum to suck up the oil during braking. Will run the brake assist directly to intake mani...


the ina unit does'nt have the front/rear baffles does it? Its these which help prevent the surge under braking... which is why the breather box (on front of block!) gulps copious amounts of oil... Disconnecting the inlet vacuum wont stop it heaving out the oil from heavy braking with slicks.. Been there, done that.. 

Seat sport based sump for the win


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Btw, here are some of the other participants on the trackday club I drive in Norway. As I had alternator problems I had some time to mess around with cams:



WOW!
thats some sort of machinery in your track day club!
Jeez.. some lovely looking and varied kit
:thumbup:


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Man your car hauls!! Perfect set up!!!


----------



## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Totally incredible man! :beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> WOW!
> thats some sort of machinery in your track day club!
> Jeez.. some lovely looking and varied kit
> :thumbup:


Yeah, it's a neat collection of cars. Last trackday there was a Koeningsegg there as well. :heart: INA sump is the kicked out one with a box surrounding the pickup. I might have someone weld another baffle in there this winter. 

You don't think it will help with no vacuum in the block breather line under breaking? Next trackday for me is my Ringtrip... I guess time will tell if it has improved any.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

suffocatemymind said:


> Man your car hauls!! Perfect set up!!!


Slicks up front really made all the difference. With semislicks on the back and good voltage in the motor I think we have a contender :wave:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Rod Ratio said:


> Totally incredible man! :beer:


:beer::beer::beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> betcha wish u were on mainland with a race track now dont ya island boy! LOL:laugh:


You have no idea man :/

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Holy cow what a Camaro. That thing was a screamer. Did he have traction problems? :heart:

I love you car man. Mad props. Wish mine was running lol


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Three3Se7en said:


> Holy cow what a Camaro. That thing was a screamer. Did he have traction problems? :heart:
> 
> I love you car man. Mad props. Wish mine was running lol


Tnx bud :beer:

He ran on some fat slicks so grip he had once they got warm. He was adjusting something on his supercharger. The white Ford GT on the pics in the end also had a supercharged V8 with 960whp. But he couldn't drive because of the 100decibel noise limit. 125db for him :wave:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Alright, new alternator in place. Same same results. SO I checked the battery contacts and what do you know... underneath the negative terminal there was some white corrosion. Sanded it away and tightened it real good= solid 13.8V. 

At least I have a new alternator that's good for many years to come :banghead: :laugh: :beer::beer:


----------



## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Gulfstream said:


> Alright, new alternator in place. Same same results. SO I checked the battery contacts and what do you know... underneath the negative terminal there was some white corrosion. Sanded it away and tightened it real good= solid 13.8V.
> 
> At least I have a new alternator that's good for many years to come :banghead: :laugh: :beer::beer:


Stinkin grounds, they always seem to screw people into buying new parts :banghead: But like you said now you shouldn't have to worry about it again for awhile


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Yeah, it's a neat collection of cars. Last trackday there was a Koeningsegg there as well. :heart: INA sump is the kicked out one with a box surrounding the pickup. I might have someone weld another baffle in there this winter.
> 
> You don't think it will help with no vacuum in the block breather line under breaking? Next trackday for me is my Ringtrip... I guess time will tell if it has improved any.


the problem is'nt he pickup its the oil going vertical on the block... Seat sport sump and copies thereof have front and rear deflector plates welded to encourage the oil not to slop up the front of the block into the breather. I dont recall an ina pan having those when I had them come thru here..


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

How does inas oilpan look inside? 
Here mine I welded and it works really good


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

vr6 nitrous (sweden) said:


> How does inas oilpan look inside?
> Here mine I welded and it works really good


 You weld very nice Henke. I thought I might ask you to weld my INA sump this winter... :beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

A week on the ring completed. 4 days ate up half my Ferodo pads and warped rotors. LSD was already gone and 3rd gear synchro is toast. But fun it was and motor felt bulletproof! :beer:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Fantastic :thumbup:


----------



## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Amazing:thumbup: the car hauls ass


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Fanfukintastic! Looks good, and sounds great! That Renault was giving you a hard time ehheeheh! :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

So jealous

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Cheers guys :beer:

Yes, without a working LSD I was struggling in the corners with 480whp to say the least... 

That Megane model has a factory LSD and a good independent suspension. Prolly a good car if you're into baguettes.


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

It is really good. Out of the box, it does a great time in Nurburgring. It's a really complete car. But yours makes it a notch higher  eheheheh


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Driving behind a M3(I think)


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

That's great bud; it's nice to see one of us enjoying themselves and sharing it


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Seriously, what a machine!


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I specially like the 10 last seconds in the 2nd clip where I get to use all the power of my motor and park the BMW just before the Gantry. :wave:


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Great vids man! How much boost are you running in comparison to the dyno?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> Great vids man! How much boost are you running in comparison to the dyno?


Cheers :beer: For trackdays I run 25psi which gives me 480whp. 30+psi for short sprints only.


----------



## elio (Nov 15, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> A week on the ring completed. 4 days ate up half my Ferodo pads and warped rotors. LSD was already gone and 3rd gear synchro is toast. But fun it was and motor felt bulletproof! :beer:


Just amazing. Well done friend!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> Driving behind a M3(I think)


shame i was supposed to go to the 'Ring that weekend too. got busy :banghead:

Anyway you going to German-Racewars this coming weekend?


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Awesome, proper driving, non of this driving between cones the yanks call driving 
You really attack it too, terrifies me, i span on my first ever lap back in 2010, after i was too weary


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

now get rid of that crappy wavetrac and get a kaz or something more race oriented dude


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> shame i was supposed to go to the 'Ring that weekend too. got busy :banghead:
> 
> Anyway you going to German-Racewars this coming weekend?


Unfortunately no, I have to go to work again


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

superkarl said:


> Awesome, proper driving, non of this driving between cones the yanks call driving
> You really attack it too, terrifies me, i span on my first ever lap back in 2010, after i was too weary


Did you drive in the rain?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> now get rid of that crappy wavetrac and get a kaz or something more race oriented dude


Wavetrac was ok until I stripped a gear... metal fragments took care of that. Next I'll go Pelquin or another gear based LSD


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> Unfortunately no, I have to go to work again


any other european builds/shops coming out i should be looking out for? im trying to do some networking while out here


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> any other european builds/shops coming out i should be looking out for? im trying to do some networking while out here


Well, in Europe there probably are thousands... I'm Norwegian and know of Scandinavian and some in UK


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> Cheers :beer: For trackdays I run 25psi which gives me 480whp. 30+psi for short sprints only.


Very reasonable :thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Wavetrac was ok until I stripped a gear... metal fragments took care of that. Next I'll go Pelquin or another gear based LSD


this is why i stayed peloquin with the GLi. the wavetrac was comin gout and i was like...hmm, clutches...gear box failure....yeah. fuk that.


ps. come visit you world flying bastard.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

So, there aren't requirement on the 'ring for a roll bar with the amount of power you have? I guess they just make you sign a release of liability and on you go?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> So, there aren't requirement on the 'ring for a roll bar with the amount of power you have? I guess they just make you sign a release of liability and on you go?


No requirement for a rollbar, helmet or anything else. Only thing they look at is if your car looks like it can handle the ring. Sometimes they can open the hood and have a look at brakefluid, but never happened to me. A few cars got turned down by the gate bcs they looked to be in a pretty piss poor state. I don't drive anywhere near my limit so for now I feel comfortable with no rollbar, however I do wear a helmet. Rollbar comes with next build where I have to re-register the car for street use. If I install a rollbar now I will have to re-register my car as a modified vehicle - which would suck a lot!


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

a good race prep shop can make a sleeved setup for you(though i would never do it personally) i know a few guys back in Va who ran this on his dedicated race car lol.

everything gets welded in and the chassis is reinforced, but the cage and such it's self get's sleeved so it can be removed in sections. they ahve been proven safe and sound, but i'm always weary lol mostly because well....in a MKI the cage is all i will truly have to save my happy ass(been there done that in an old rabbit ITS car)

anyway..you can try that, since they won't find the **** under the carpet and such. you can hid the cage sections with speaker covers and such in the dash and have the carpet go over the base plates and cross members,etc....do they look in the trunk etc?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Good tip Cris but I think I a, will go a completely different direction by building a no compromise haldex setup using this motor as base or b, just do some minor changes like LSD and fixing the synchro. 

:beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Attached gopro on my helmet this time:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I do notice after 30min racing my coilpacks get to hot and loose spark efficiency. I already have low mount PagParts mani and everything wrapped... any suggestions?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

intereting..perhaps getting extra flow into the bay to get bay temps down?

great vid dude....i'm dying to move back to a place wher ei can start racing again :\


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

what coil packs?
if 1.8t your maybe stuck

if tfsi taller ones, then i made phenolic insulator spacers to try and keep the coils off the very hot rocker cover


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Last trackday was the 1.8t ones. I did replace them with 2.0 ones now and will see next trackday if it improves. I will also cut a little off the gasket between cowling and hood to allow some air escape there and make an improvised heatshield between valvecover and mani/WG. 

Gonna look like she8 but function over form has always been my agenda.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Me against most of the field on the long straight + some other stuff.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

:thumbup:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

What happened at 3:20?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

groggory said:


> What happened at 3:20?


Sudden oversteer in a corner that banks a little outwards. Corner is called "the butcher" on this track.


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Sudden oversteer in a corner that banks a little outwards. Corner is called "the butcher" on this track.


Nasty combo


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah. When the car start to rotate like that the front wheels want to follow the direction your going and the steering wheel will spin faster than you can control. So just let go for a fraction then control it again. Prevent a spin. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I attached this heatshield to keep mani heat from heating the coilpacks further. It's bolted to the head with a bolt belonging to oem heatshield. I know it looks like she8 but hopefully it will keep it a bit cooler in there. I also trimmed off the rubber gasket between hood and cowling.

Before:









After:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Badaass brother:thumbup:
Making a lot people jealous lol

Can't.wait to finish my mk2 and start racing.

Keep it up.:beer:


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Removing the rubber seal between hood and rain tray will probably make a nice difference. I wonder if removing the coilpack 'adapters' will help in heat dissipation, I know they are aluminum but still...Great set up man, so jelly - can't wait to have mine done sometime


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> I wonder if removing the coilpack 'adapters' will help in heat dissipation, I know they are aluminum but still.


That's what Bill @Badger did. He had them made of phenolic material to avoid metal contact with the coilpacks. Might have to look into that.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

18T_BT said:


> Removing the rubber seal between hood and rain tray will probably make a nice difference. I wonder if removing the coilpack 'adapters' will help in heat dissipation, I know they are aluminum but still...Great set up man, so jelly - can't wait to have mine done sometime


Removing the rubber seal will definitely have a big impact in underhood temperatures (I've tested it personally several times). The only thing is that at speed, it won't let air escape but draw outside air in because of aerodynamic laws (high pressure/slow moving air at the windshield base will be forced into the bay). 

I think badger5's idea of a phenolic spacer/insulator is the ticket. I have meant to make a set for my car too and I'm surprised non of the vendors have thought about capitalizing on the advantages of the material.


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

What about removing the bottom under carriage cowling...
There's enough turbulence and air velocity to evacuate the latent heat.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Don® said:


> What about removing the bottom under carriage cowling...
> There's enough turbulence and air velocity to evacuate the latent heat.


Agree, it would be a good move to help de-pressurize the bay and motivate airflow out, but might prove to be a compromising move for the aerodynamics of a track car (especially a FWD one). The extra turbulence for not having the under tray would increase front end lift at speed and might be a bigger problem than a solution. Personally, I'd go for the hood spacing and as much insulation possible (a coilpack cover is also a doable addition to phenolic insulating spacers). :beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Don® said:


> What about removing the bottom under carriage cowling...
> There's enough turbulence and air velocity to evacuate the latent heat.


That cowling is long gone on my car. I noticed no lift at 280kph GPS.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I thought gulfstream's ghetto style heat shield was pretty clever. It may not be gorgeous and clean, but it looks pretty simple and effective.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

keep the lower under body stuff for stability purposes but def raise the rear of the hood and remove the rubber seal and put something on each side and something in the cetner to keep it from bouncing and i would reccomend flush hood pins or something to keep it from flying up on you...safety first!!


that phelonic idea sounds mint. should def do that and sell them!!


i like your "heat shield" but is your turbo in a blanket as well?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> that phelonic idea sounds mint. should def do that and sell them!!
> 
> 
> i like your "heat shield" but is your turbo in a blanket as well?


If you make phenolic 2.0t coilpack adapters I'll be the first to order 4 :wave:

Turbine housing is inside a blanket, PagParts SS mani wrapped, WG coated and WG reroute pipe wrapped as well as DP. Coated compressor housing as well just for good measure so there's not alot else I can do about that.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> That cowling is long gone on my car. I noticed no lift at 280kph GPS.


So you have the air-pulling effect of the low pressure/fast moving air under the car that DonR was talking about. 

As far as the lift from the resulting turbulence, it's not that it will super noticeable in the front straights, but not having that lift would definitely make things better in terms of front grip with lateral loads (think fast swepers). No doubt about it!


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> If you make phenolic 2.0t coilpack adapters I'll be the first to order 4 :wave:
> .


I've been meaning to cut a set for myself, maybe I'll cut another set for you too. :beer:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Turbine housing is inside a blanket, PagParts SS mani wrapped, WG coated and WG reroute pipe wrapped as well as DP. Coated compressor housing as well just for good measure so there's not alot else I can do about that.



i knew abotu the other stuff, didn't know ya put a snuggy on the ol snail



:beer::beer::wave::wave::heart::heart:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> So you have the air-pulling effect of the low pressure/fast moving air under the car that DonR was talking about.
> 
> As far as the lift from the resulting turbulence, it's not that it will super noticeable in the front straights, but not having that lift would definitely make things better in terms of front grip with lateral loads (think fast swepers). No doubt about it!


Also my car is pretty low up front with the splitter and all so front downforce is pretty good. Felt that on the Nürburgring in particular. REAR downforce is horrible tho. Tip toes and rear end moves around all over the place in high speed sections.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I've been meaning to cut a set for myself, maybe I'll cut another set for you too. :beer:


Yes please :beer::beer:


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> Also my car is pretty low up front with the splitter and all so front downforce is pretty good. Felt that on the Nürburgring in particular. REAR downforce is horrible tho. Tip toes and rear end moves around all over the place in high speed sections.


Do you have just a lip or a splitter extending rearward from the front section of the bumper?

Balance is always greatly impacted when one end has less lift or create more downforce than another. Maybe time for a functional rear wing? (A loose, tail-happy car can definitely be felt by watching your videos too).


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Do you have just a lip or a splitter extending rearward from the front section of the bumper?
> 
> Balance is always greatly impacted when one end has less lift or create more downforce than another. Maybe time for a functional rear wing? (A loose, tail-happy car can definitely be felt by watching your videos too).


Well, the splitter/lip sits in the lower bumper and the bumper goes underneath and back past the radiator. So like 30cm ish. Yes, I wanted to get an extra spoiler that goes on top of the one I already have which is a bit more aggressive.
But seeing how I always struggle with grip I've decided my next step is making this car into a haldex project. Rather, I'll buy a haldex car, similar to mine albeit not same styling, and just move over the motor and other goodies.

Mby easier to see here:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

you should do a small rear lower diffuser and a lower hatch spoiler just to add stability. coupled with the awd(though it won't be in use while cruising) and some weight loss it will be a superior car.:beer::beer:


----------



## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> But seeing how I always struggle with grip I've decided my next step is making this car into a haldex project. Rather, I'll buy a haldex car, similar to mine albeit not same styling, and just move over the motor and other goodies.


audi s3 8l?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> you should do a small rear lower diffuser and a lower hatch spoiler just to add stability. coupled with the awd(though it won't be in use while cruising) and some weight loss it will be a superior car.:beer::beer:


Also the haldex cars have fully independent rear suspension. Not this sway bar BS fwd cars have so it will be a really potent trackday car.



styling5030 said:


> audi s3 8l?


Seat Leon Top Sport 1.8t. I don't really like the styling on the S3 and besides I already have so many parts I can carry over from my current Cupra R. Same haldex system.


----------



## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

Very rare leon awd 20vt. 

Envoyé depuis mon HTC One avec Tapatalk


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

styling5030 said:


> Very rare leon awd 20vt.
> 
> Envoyé depuis mon HTC One avec Tapatalk


Not terribly rare. There's normally 3-4 for sale here in Sweden at any time. Cupra R is much more difficult to come by, so if my car becomes a collectors car in a distant future I'll probably regret parting it for an awd build. opcorn:


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

I've always wanted to come up with a clever under carriage valence that would promote engine cooling while assisting in creating down force and this would be in combination with a well designed rear diffuser that would encapsulate the rear end of the car. A lot of air gets trapped under there causing drag.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Don® said:


> I've always wanted to come up with a clever under carriage valence that would promote engine cooling while assisting in creating down force and this would be in combination with a well designed rear diffuser that would encapsulate the rear end of the car. A lot of air gets trapped under there causing drag.


That works well on cars with a flat underside, no? I did look into a large rear diffuser but seeing how my car is not totally flat underneath I kinda dropped it.


----------



## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

in france, is very rare


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Respectively speaking, the majority of the underside is considered 'flat', I'm speaking of the area between the rear axle to the bumper, it's just terrible for aerodynamics.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Don® said:


> Respectively speaking, the majority of the underside is considered 'flat', I'm speaking of the area between the rear axle to the bumper, it's just terrible for aerodynamics.


Gotcha :thumbup:

There's some universal rear diffusers to be had.. but not specifically designed for our platform. As far as I know


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Don® said:


> Respectively speaking, the majority of the underside is considered 'flat', I'm speaking of the area between the rear axle to the bumper, it's just terrible for aerodynamics.


Isn't that why you want me to cut holes in my rear bumper   


Ostein, I am sure you've seen this? Maybe get some ideas from him? http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...1-4wd-Conversion-amp-BW-8374-EFR-Build-Thread


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> Isn't that why you want me to cut holes in my rear bumper
> 
> 
> Ostein, I am sure you've seen this? Maybe get some ideas from him? http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...1-4wd-Conversion-amp-BW-8374-EFR-Build-Thread


Yeah, Ive seen Graham's build. He went to town for reals! In UK they don't get the haldex version they sell here in Sweden so he just decided to make his own :laugh::beer::beer:

Easier to buy the finished car and just do a motorswap.


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

18T_BT said:


> Isn't that why you want me to cut holes in my rear bumper
> 
> 
> Ostein, I am sure you've seen this? Maybe get some ideas from him? http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...1-4wd-Conversion-amp-BW-8374-EFR-Build-Thread


LOL, Absolutely :laugh:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

the under car area is def the suck.

instead of going with oem floor pans in my MKI i've decided to just do the floors in steel and go ahead and put in the beefed up areas for when the cage goes in a nd it becomes a non-road car. i am going to make some channels to direct air into my exhaust tunnel cover to keep cool air going through it but also coming to and going down to help with downforce.

perhaps you can do something similar. some thin steel or aluminim and some nut-serts or something. cover your exhaust tunnel, make some flow opening and exits to help direct it in and then out in the proper areas and direction to keep it from becoming a lift inducer lol.

then the a rear diffuser that can go far enough forward to help direct air out and up and so on to help with it all upon exit etc...blah blah.


skys's the limit man.

you can make it easily removable in sections for transport and track use.:beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> the under car area is def the suck.
> 
> instead of going with oem floor pans in my MKI i've decided to just do the floors in steel and go ahead and put in the beefed up areas for when the cage goes in a nd it becomes a non-road car. i am going to make some channels to direct air into my exhaust tunnel cover to keep cool air going through it but also coming to and going down to help with downforce.
> 
> ...



Yes, I had a look underneath it today and like Don say there's a lot to be improved around rear axle/fueltank area as far as airflow goes. I found a few universal rear diffusers that might look interesting for my next haldex build. That together with a small functional spoiler could be the ticket.

:beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I need to buy a lottery ticket. When I came home from Germany last month I heard some vibration from the left side of the engine. Had a look and found one of the bolts that kept the clamps to the compressor was backed all the way out. Bolted a new one in place and Bob's your uncle. Not so much, still had some noise sub 2000rpms and after my last weekend of racing in Norway I decided to really find whats up. Cambelt was completely loose and have been like this prolly for a month or so. I went through two trackdays with a loose cambelt..............:











SO, happy I still have a motor I continue my quest to cool down my coilpacks. My ghetto shield and trimming off the rubber gasket really makes a noticeable difference in spite of how it looks. Following the idea of a phenolic gasket instead of the 2.0t coilpack adapters I made some small spacers out of some 8mm silicone hose and placed them under my current adapters. Idea is to keep adapters from getting as hot as valve cover and transferring the heat to the coilpacks. With a 2mm gap coilpacks still reach all the way down (I measured between a normal push-down) and it allows a little air in between:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer::beer:

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Are you using a standard belt or one of those Kevlar pieces?


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Gulfstream said:


> Cambelt was completely loose and have been like this prolly for a month or so. I went through two trackdays with a loose cambelt..............:



So, that's how you will find the extra 3hp you wanted, back to the dyno :laugh:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Are you using a standard belt or one of those Kevlar pieces?


Got the blue Gates Kevlar one


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> So, that's how you will find the extra 3hp you wanted, back to the dyno :laugh:


Ha I wish, buut belt was fine before I dynoed it early summer. The hyd tensioner probably passed on during my ringtrip. 

I feel lucky :beer:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Good catch O. Just a testament to show that a bunk hydro tensioner will not result in instant catastrophic failure. Even flogged out on a track (although I wouldnt recommend this...)


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I love manual tensioners. You just have to do the tension correctly ever time.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Good catch O. Just a testament to show that a bunk hydro tensioner will not result in instant catastrophic failure. Even flogged out on a track (although I wouldnt recommend this...)


True but it does show another bunk hydro tensioner..lol:beer:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Twopnt016v said:


> True but it does show another bunk hydro tensioner..lol:beer:


Well, yeah. Breaking has always been part of the equation with car parts


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I love manual tensioners. You just have to do the tension correctly ever time.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2


Discussed the manual tensioner with my buddy and clearly VW has designed a redundancy in theirs so the belt will be held in place for a while. One month and two trackdays worth and still in place :thumbup:

Would a failed manual tensioner manage the same?

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Well, yeah. Breaking has always been part of the equation with car parts


Touché



Gulfstream said:


> Discussed the manual tensioner with my buddy and clearly VW has designed a redundancy in theirs so the belt will be held in place for a while. One month and two trackdays worth and still in place
> 
> Would a failed manual tensioner manage the same?


Not everyone is as lucky as you are. You rarely see failed manual tensioners. Sure you've heard of a few install error cases but nothing near the catastrophes from the hydro units. Anyway, not trying to derail the thread. Just glad you didn't have major damage and your engine is ok.:thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

No way. I think your bay heat cycles to extremes more then the average person on here and for sustained periods. I dont think a manual tensioner would be up to the task to be honest. And once its compromised, its a wrap, you're toast... Hydro tensioners bottom out for a while and you have a slightly loose belt til it wears. You dont catch it on time (which in this case you did), it will start stripping teeth. But this may take a while and will give you some sort of warning (noise) or a cam correlation code or implausible signal codes


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> No way. I think your bay heat cycles to extremes more then the average person on here and for sustained periods. I dont think a manual tensioner would be up to the task to be honest. And once its compromised, its a wrap, you're toast... Hydro tensioners bottom out for a while and you have a slightly loose belt til it wears. You dont catch it on time (which in this case you did), it will start stripping teeth. But this may take a while and will give you some sort of warning (noise) or a cam correlation code or implausible signal codes


That's what my mech told me as well... Sticking with OEM in this case :beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Been brainstorming a bit about cooling down my coilpacks during racing. A hood scoop seems like the obvious solution but I feel a scoobie style scoop is massively out of place on a VW no matter how functional.

Suggestions?


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

First thing that comes to mind is the Dahlback Racing Golf.








Is this the F40 scoop or something?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

So he just cut a triangle there huh... Evo style scoop.

Two of these would do the trick:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4aca897c27

Aim them at nr. 1/2 and 3/4. 

Sorted :beer:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> So he just cut a triangle there huh... Evo style scoop.
> 
> Two of these would do the trick:
> 
> ...


small electric fan and duct to blow on them.
you tried phenolic spavers under them yet?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> small electric fan and duct to blow on them.
> you tried phenolic spavers under them yet?


I'm going with these NACA ducts. If you look up the page here Bill you'll see what I did with the spacing. I got some longer bolts and places 1cm cuts of a 6mm silicone hose and squeezed them under the adapters. Torqued down I have like 2mm space between adapters and valve cover.


----------



## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

I really like the idea of incorporating something like this! :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Merits to plastic valve covers. I dont see nearly the degradation of wires and packs on plastic valve covers as I do the aluminum and intake manifolds. Much less in the way of underhood temps as well.


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

X


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Merits to plastic valve covers. I dont see nearly the degradation of wires and packs on plastic valve covers as I do the aluminum and intake manifolds. Much less in the way of underhood temps as well.


Interesting observation… are you hinting at an upcoming product release


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, I just finished up a 650+whp E36 M3 turbo project where I was performing some enhancements. Impressive how the stock intake mani holds big boost and the multi part valve cover assembly with the plastic top. Yes, it is prone to some leakage but we are talking a very long surface area and not much more prone to it then our 4cyl motors. Took it around the neighborhood getting the rear loose a bit. Came back and popped the hood to check on things and its fairly cool up top and the coilpacks are actually covered as well (That would be death to our CP's). Also, the FSI's are equipped with their plastic intakes and valve covers. They also exhibit cooler underhood temps. The early VR6's were gigantic heat sinks... The later MK4 VR's in their many iterations ran much cooler as well. Plastic vc's and intakes....hmmm...


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Hmmmmm

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

groggory said:


> X


?



[email protected] said:


> Well, I just finished up a 650+whp E36 M3 turbo project where I was performing some enhancements. Impressive how the stock intake mani holds big boost and the multi part valve cover assembly with the plastic top. Yes, it is prone to some leakage but we are talking a very long surface area and not much more prone to it then our 4cyl motors. Took it around the neighborhood getting the rear loose a bit. Came back and popped the hood to check on things and its fairly cool up top and the coilpacks are actually covered as well (That would be death to our CP's). Also, the FSI's are equipped with their plastic intakes and valve covers. They also exhibit cooler underhood temps. The early VR6's were gigantic heat sinks... The later MK4 VR's in their many iterations ran much cooler as well. Plastic vc's and intakes....hmmm...


I'd welcome a plastic valve cover for sure. My SEM intake is really cool to touch even after 30min racing partly due to my phenolic gasket but also the water/denatured alcohol I spray 12" before the TB. 

I plan to get a fiberglass hood which would make it easier to mold in two naca vents. Saving a few grams as well :thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i'd buy a composite/plastic valve cover as well. espeically since my car hasn't run in months and i need to send my turbo in for the v2 or 3 or whatever wheel


----------



## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i'd buy a composite/plastic valve cover as well…


This is what I was hinting at… we need to start group by list


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Agreed

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Plastic VC would be very interesting for all of us who actually USE our engines. Al, you listening ? :wave:

Group buy:

1. me :beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Last attempt on 100-200kph today before winter hibernation. With cut slicks I have grip. 5.8sec is ok for one gear. TDI gearbox makes it possible.


----------



## KmosK04 (Dec 18, 2012)

WOW! Very impressive! Which tyres? And road or track?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Toyo Proxies R888 on German Autobahn with free speed :beer:


----------



## Leonturbo (Nov 26, 2012)

From what car i can find the tdi gearbox?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Leonturbo said:


> From what car i can find the tdi gearbox?


It's 02M ERF I use. Can't remember what car it sat in. I went to a part broker.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Is that compressor surge @ ~4k?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> It's 02M ERF I use. Can't remember what car it sat in. I went to a part broker.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


fly me one to Hawaii 

my TDi 02J is finally dying and people want stupid retarded money for these things. it's ridiculous.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

suffocatemymind said:


> Is that compressor surge @ ~4k?


Nah, just gasping for air.. Mby I need a better higher flowing airfilter.


Vegeta Gti said:


> fly me one to Hawaii
> 
> my TDi 02J is finally dying and people want stupid retarded money for these things. it's ridiculous.


I paid 1100usd for my 13k miles ERF box in Sweden. What do they go for on the island?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Nah, just gasping for air.. Mby I need a better higher flowing airfilter.
> 
> 
> I paid 1100usd for my 13k miles ERF box in Sweden. What do they go for on the island?


there are no 02M TDi's in the USA lol. it's 02J or the newer MKV/VI 5 speed. but people are asking 1100 for TDi 02J 5 speeds. i got mine out of an 73k car for $600 shipped with shifterbox/cables lol


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

If it's any comfort I think the 02M ERF tdi box has too long gears. 8000rpm in 2nd is 88mph. 88mph in 3rd is 5000rpms. Sync don't dig that so much.

http://www.supradave.com/tech/gearspeed/comparator.php?do_what=


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> If it's any comfort I think the 02M ERF tdi box has too long gears. 8000rpm in 2nd is 88mph


So you get to 1955 before third? :laugh:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

l88m22vette said:


> So you get to 1955 before third? :laugh:


That's right! I had to tell Michael J. Fox something about the future umpkin:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

On Saturday I'll go to a hubdyno at Jonus Racing in Norway and directly after go to a Dynapack dyno 1hr away at KRB Trading to compare the numbers with the Civinco dyno I use in Sweden.


I wonder how much effect I've lost after I melted the plug in cyl 2 and lost 4% compression?


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

l88m22vette said:


> So you get to 1955 before third? :laugh:


Just lol'd on the train


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> If it's any comfort I think the 02M ERF tdi box has too long gears. 8000rpm in 2nd is 88mph. 88mph in 3rd is 5000rpms. Sync don't dig that so much.
> 
> http://www.supradave.com/tech/gearspeed/comparator.php?do_what=


Yeah but I'm on 15" wheels and 225/45 tires. If I had agti trans I wouldn't be able to barely hit 145 in 5th @8500 lol

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> On Saturday I'll go to a hubdyno at Jonus Racing in Norway and directly after go to a Dynapack dyno 1hr away at KRB Trading to compare the numbers with the Civinco dyno I use in Sweden.
> 
> 
> I wonder how much effect I've lost after I melted the plug in cyl 2 and lost 4% compression?



how did it go on the dynos?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> how did it go on the dynos?


Jonus didn't have a hubspacer adapters for my boltpattern so we will do it on Wednesday instead.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

booooo...cocktease booooooo


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> booooo...cocktease booooooo


oh comon now, you know you like it ic:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Back from two hubdynos today at KRB trading and Jonus Racing in Norway.

529whp from the Dynapack and 485whp from Jonus Racing cucstom hubdyno. 

A lot of spread and much less than the Civinco's 597whp number which seems kinda unreal right now eace:

These figures are fine, but we measured backpressure and found it to be 3.1bars at 7000rpm where my boost was 1.5bars. Thats right, more than twice the backpressure as compared to boost. This is why Im melting plugs and my EGT probe. Took a picture of my melted EGT probe, will post later. So it's been hotter than 1300c in there.......


Jonus, which is one of the top builders over here http://www.jonus-racing.no/ said all this backpressure is from one thing alone:


the 30r turbine wheel.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Backpressure issues arent just attributed to the turbine only. I am wondering about your inlet/filter setup as well as your intercooler setup. You see, if you have a restriction in the intake of air and possibly a restriction in charge like intercooler setup, it will want to slow down the compressor which conversely slows down your turbine which will create elevated backpressures. Its not alarmingly high backpressure but it is getting to the point where something needs to be addressed. Your IC core is rated at 530bhp and you are surpassing that which may be slowing down your wheel also. Your inlet and filter might not be adequate any longer for your power levels and we may need to increase it in size as well. A better flow path along your ic pipes may help here too. There are the devil in these little details but they can make a world of difference addressing them. Awesome and consistent power, nonetheless :thumbup:


----------



## Rumpelstilzchen (Oct 24, 2009)

Maybe I missed it...what are the specs on the two runs? Wmi? Psi? E85?


:beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I had 1000c already at 12psi. I think my components are built to cope with that flow. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Gulfstream said:


> Jonus, which is one of the top builders over here http://www.jonus-racing.no/ said all this backpressure is from one thing alone:
> 
> 
> the 30r turbine wheel.



Does that mean that you are upgrading to a 35r turbine wheel umpkin:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

18T_BT said:


> Does that mean that you are upgrading to a 35r turbine wheel umpkin:


Totally. Or something else if that fits my motor better. My current turbo is probably the perfect turbo for stock 1.8l smallport no E85 but my motor has become a totally different beast with special needs. Need to accommodate  

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

There’s always an upgrade route anyway as a gtx3576R would just bolt right on.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> Totally. Or something else if that fits my motor better. My current turbo is probably the perfect turbo for stock 1.8l smallport no E85 but my motor has become a totally different beast with special needs. Need to accommodate
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


Operating at a 2:1 pressure ratio is nothing I would loose sleep over. It's almost always done in Motorsport application of turbocharged engines (where every component is asked to work hard), and not necessarily a bad thing if you ask me. What I would be extremely concerned about is melting EGT plugs, and the possible high EGT implications (especially on a high ethanol blend). 

I would look extensively at your exhaust system first before condemning the turbo size (which IMO is quite large already and can be made to work efficiently at your power goals and levels). What size downpipe are you running? What's the diameter and level of restriction in the rest of the exhaust? Don't forget, E85 has more exhaust byproducts and generally call for very unrestricted exhaust systems compared to the norm on normal pump gas. 

Another thing that comes to mind with high EGTs on such a cool burning fuel blend, is the amount of timing you run. If it's not advanced enough to help keep the combustion cool, that could be a contributing factor. Conservative timing is counterproductive in E85 setups because the fuel can take it with ease, and being conservative means having higher EGTs for no reason. 

BTW, your numbers are awesome! The difference between dynos is to be expected, a dyno is a tool used best when a baseline is established and future modifications and engine state is tested in comparison to the exsiting baseline numbers (and even then there is margin of error). :beer:


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

But such big difference is kind of strange. 597whp to 485whp?
Unless I'm missing something (different setup or something), 110whp difference from dyno to dyno, is just abnormal...
Maybe HP to WHP?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

also, different people run their dyno's differently. i've seen over 200whp difference in dynojets here.

then when i get the 3 dyno's to do the same load ratings and get the strapping pressure down correctly it is within 8-10whp.
i am def suprised at the readings.


as far as backpressure, i would def go with a better intercooler and perhaps a bigger downpipe and such.

isn't your wastegate re-routed back into your dp? if so how and where? i have seen that done not so well causing backpressure.

regardless. a gtx3576 is still kinda slow and big in my opinion for a roadcourse car.


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

No, I don't get hung up on numbers... I did a 388hp run, with 282whp, which I think it's pretty acceptable, at least for a MAHA dyno, and here in Portugal (for a 1.8T with a 50trim). I know there are a lot of different dyno's around, and will provide different outputs.
But that different numbers (110whp difference) is kind of huge  The car is fast as stink though :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Hub dyno resuts are the most operater dependent out of all the dyno types. They can be coerced to read high or low very easily. Anyhow, yes, 2:1 is within a very normal range in backpressure. I have been discussing it with the OP. Without backpressure, you're not spooling the turbo unless you're running a diesel with a huge back and small front


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

HidRo said:


> But such big difference is kind of strange. 597whp to 485whp?
> Unless I'm missing something (different setup or something), 110whp difference from dyno to dyno, is just abnormal...
> Maybe HP to WHP?





HidRo said:


> No, I don't get hung up on numbers... I know there are a lot of different dyno's around, and will provide different outputs.
> But that different numbers (110whp difference) is kind of huge  The car is fast as stink though :thumbup:


Well, if you don't get hung up on numbers, why is the variance between dynos so hard for you to process? I know the OP had a compression-lowering mishap that may have contributed to a loss of raw power, but if anything, the first high reading one should be the you're questioning. What would a definitive answer for the OP, as far engine health, and finding out what to make of all the different numbers, would be to go back to the original dyno where he has baseline figure, and compare the numbers. Again, comparing data from different unknown dynos is an exercise in futility without previous baselines to gauge from. :beer:


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Well, if you don't get hung up on numbers, why is the variance between dynos so hard for you to process? I know the OP had a compression-lowering mishap that may have contributed to a loss of raw power, but if anything, the first high reading one should be the you're questioning. What would a definitive answer for the OP, as far engine health, and finding out what to make of all the different numbers, would be to go back to the original dyno where he has baseline figure, and compare the numbers. Again, comparing data from different unknown dynos is an exercise in futility without previous baselines to gauge from. :beer:


The "I don't get hung up on dyno numbers" was a reply to a post that was deleted somehow...
For sure that dynos are better used to compare updates you do to your car, other than fórum pénis measurements  but 100whp is 100whp  I know I will go to the dyno I usually go, to see any changes I do. It's not the closest one, but it's the one I trust.
Gulfstream, still with ideas of going bigger? Won't that just start making you not have grip (more than now ) I tried to do a 100-200km/h run on 4th gear, but the weather did not help, and wheel spin took place. 5.7s is fast as hell!!!


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Anyhow, yes, 2:1 is within a very normal range in backpressure. I have been discussing it with the OP. Without backpressure, you're not spooling the turbo unless you're running a diesel with a huge back and small front


Yeah Arnold, 2:1 hot/cold pressure ratio is nothing out of the ordinary and is not really indicating pre-turbine inadequacies. I would go after maximizing timing advance to lower his high EGTs, and maybe look at optimizing things post turbine wheel.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Either that or go a tad leaner. I'm pretty sure that E85 also increases backpressure as well. One thing that I keep getting back to is the wastegate. I've been testing some Tial units straight out of the box and notice that most of them have some form of leakage. Now, valve guides are designed to leak but I've been getting them b/w the diaphragm housing and the ss body. Namely the o-ring that separates guide body/atmosphere from pressure chamber. Now, PR drop is a normal occurrence in turbochargers but we must determine where its coming from. Whether its reduced VE's, turbo sizing, leaks, etc etc. Many of the race cars, to maintain as close to a 1:1 ratio often wastegate their BP through the exhaust or even control it through a poppet valve in the charge system while carefully trying to maintain boost stability. its a tall order to have just a turbocharger maintain this. Wastegates routinley crack open during operation for linear boost delivery which will also relieve a bit of BP. I'm wondering if the wastegate is leaking a bit which will A) cause boost drop B) elevate BP C) reduce VE. Just a little food for thought.


----------



## Guegué (Aug 16, 2012)

congratulations for the car!

I'm building a S3 8L with the same setup. The only difference is the piston (ROSS 10,5:1) and I'll use ethanol and 80Lb injectors

I admit that I expected more of GT3071R.

Nice cupra!


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

You expected more then 500whp? Tough crowd


----------



## Guegué (Aug 16, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> You expected more then 500whp? Tough crowd


NO!

I expect 420-440whp 

I see the results on page 01 and I understand that is hp, not whp (436hp), correct? 

Edit.:

Sorry, I see all thread now. Is Whp. 

tks


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

To be clear this backpressure is measured pre turbine in the collector, not after turbine. After turbine I have a 3" turboback with a 100cell cat. When I noticed high egt's early summer we made it as streamlined as possible. Nothing to pick up there. 

Pre turbine I guess we can look at the WG, cams, IC and chargepipes and turbo inlet. I'll pressure test the WG and look for any leaks. I'll hook up a gauge pre IC to see the pressure drop across it (Garret 550 core). Take a few runs with no airfilter and look at EGT's. What else?

As far as whats acceptable for backpressure I've heard so many different things from ppl who work with this I'm not sure what to believe. Seems like over here in Europe ppl say twice the BP is unacceptable and will cause high EGT's. In fact Jonus who dynoed my car said this was the worst BP he had ever seen on a 500whp turbo car... These guys are not amateurs but build champoinship winning race cars. Also Henke with the 1.8t E85 running a BW s258 has less BP than boost and he did 480whp-ish. 


What is common for ALL the pro builders over here is that they all say the 30r turbine wheel is WAY to small for my motor and they have seen high backpressures from this turbine wheel many times. 


As for going even leaner than lambda 0.84 is not happening. I'm already borderline lean and as I dont have EGT reading from each runner (yet) I cant see each individual cylinder but the total lambda. We pulled the plugs in the last dyno to have a look as the car was misfiring(plugs started to melt) and Jonus told me cylinder 3 ran leaner than the others so I will fatten up the lambda to 0.82. 


Turbo options for me is anything with less BP ie larger turbine. SO....

1. GTX3576R?
2. BW s362/364/366?
3. Holset HE351W?
4. Custom from Jonus? (no info on what that means yet)


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

For tho who are focusing on the dynonumbers I can tell my car walks away from a C6 Z06 even at 25psi.

If we take an average from all the dynos: 597+529+485 / 3 = 536whp


----------



## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

And so the quest for more jams continues..... Love it or hate it but it never ends :laugh:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm not looking for more power but for less backpressure and lower EGT 's

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> To be clear this backpressure is measured pre turbine in the collector, not after turbine. After turbine I have a 3" turboback with a 100cell cat. When I noticed high egt's early summer we made it as streamlined as possible. Nothing to pick up there.
> 
> Pre turbine I guess we can look at the WG, cams, IC and chargepipes and turbo inlet. I'll pressure test the WG and look for any leaks. I'll hook up a gauge pre IC to see the pressure drop across it (Garret 550 core). Take a few runs with no airfilter and look at EGT's. What else?
> 
> ...


I am sure you're in good company and I'm not questioning or arguing the reasoning of your tuner that recommend a bigger turbo. 

With that said, I feel that there might be some points worth clarifying for you and other readers. 

We've briefly brushed on the topic of acceptable or ideal backpressure(EB)/Boost ratio, but it's more involved than it might seem (and yes, I'm talking about pre-turbine pressure measured at the manifold). 

- First of all, it is often referred to as a static ratio (3:1, 2:1, 1:1 ratio are rounded examples), but this not the case as the in real life it is a dynamic value that start somewhere and ends at a different one as the rev limit. So, to be really technically correct in the discussion, we need to point out at what part of the powerband X or Y BP ratio is recommended or acceptable. In other words, a car may start at 1.1:1 BP ratio at 1,500-2,000 rpm and end up at 2.8:1 BP ratio at 8,000 rpm. Say you set a target of 1.5:1 ratio for the use of your car, and it happens at 6,000 rpm on an 8K rev limit, it's not necessarily a bad thing even if the BP ratio may be 1.7 at redline. What this all means is that at a certain Volumetric efficiency level or percentage, there is one or more restriction point in the system. 

- There are many possible components that can seriously restrict VE in the system and end up having an effect on measured BP ratio (even components upstream of the combustion chamber like IC or TB size). Without testing them one by one, it's hard to pinpoint which one is the biggest contributor. As Arnold pointed out, it could be before the motor but from experience that is not typical with builds at your level where IC and piping are quite large and intake manifold and TB are upgraded to levels well beyond what's ideally needed. Usually it's either the turbine housing or wheel size (as your tuner proposed), or the conditions post turbine that are creating a bottle neck that moves all the way back to slow things down in the turbine housing. People often overlook their exhaust system by going with the " I run a 3" exhaust" and thinking that it's good for any setup. I've seen firsthand 3" exhaust systems with straight through resonator and muffler have 15 psi of BP, and others with "hi-flow" Cat converter reach 25+ psi of BP (and no measuring by the tailpipe is wrong and measurements need to be taken somewhere in the downpipe). Levels of post-turbine BP like that will compound and greatly increase the numbers seen at the manifold pre-turbine, and in some case cause the EGTs to get in the red zone. Obviously the simple solution is to upsize the turbine (at the expense of response), but that doesn't address the big contributor that is still lurking... the exhaust system. 

- Now, as far as ideal BP ratio, it's more art than science and really depends on the use of the car. Two extreme examples can be seen in OEM turbo engines that generally operate at over 2:1 peak ratio for a fat and broad powerband that doesn't feel gutless in the lower range - at the opposite side of the spectrum, certain old school F1 turbo engines had 0.X:1 BP ratio until very near their redline (meaning more charge pressure than turbine pressure), but they also counted on it to not overwhelm tires on tight turns and the delivery was very peaky in steady state. Arnold also briefly hinted on that, but to have a setup that works well in a wide range of RPM, a 2:1 PEAK BP ratio is a good starting point. This means that meat of the powerband will be operating below 2:1 and give acceptable turbo response for a circuit car (a drag application, where steady state is the name of the game, might adopt a different tuning philosophy). 

At the end of the day, you can pick the conventional way of looking at these problems and just upsize your turbo hotside. But you have to ask yourself at what cost, and if you've really explored the other possible culprits for your specific issue and optimized things the proper way first (starting further away from the motor and working your way back). Going bigger is not always better. My 2 cents! :beer:


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

All your options are going to decrease the responsiveness of your set up:


A. Get a bigger a/r, bigger downpipe and stick with 30r wheel and hope this is enough to reduce backpressure

or

B. Get a 35r, you will make same power with lower boost but you will eventually come to a similar issue if you stick with a similar a/r housing and continue to crank boost.


EDIT: Just saw Max's post, and I agree with what he's saying.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I am sure you're in good company and I'm not questioning or arguing the reasoning of your tuner that recommend a bigger turbo.
> 
> With that said, I feel that there might be some points worth clarifying for you and other readers.
> 
> ...



Another point here, I will measure BP in DP as I have a bung there. Eliminate another possible culprit. As far as acceptable BP I can refer to Henkes trackday car again with a 1.8t Lupo E85 on a s258, 480whp with less BP than boost. You don't have to do a drag car to achieve that. I'll try to get Henke chime in. 

I do realize stepping up in turbine size will hurt my engine response to some degree but as long as I stop melting plugs and EGT probes me in fat city so much I know it :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Melted EGT probe 1300c +









First Dynapack hubdyno 528whp/625NM

















Measuring BP. The red silicone hose exploded when we reached 3bars...


















Boost dropping and BP climbing with rpm


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Billet s259 or larger hot side just to see. 

Maybe even one of the gta ceramic turbines...

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Great points Marcus. And good idea Oistein on wanting to check pressure differentials. I had totally forgotten you were running a cat. Probably not the greatest of ideas at this level. Sent you a PM on FB about this O. I'm also reminded of the fact that cats are basically little furnaces that burn up HC's. This means that the exhaust stream is actually HEATED up in this region. So, not only is it a restriction, its also responsble for thermal expansion of gases (and i'm sure you've got quite a bit of raw fuel touching this area). I'm sure you know where this is leading...


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> Another point here, I will measure BP in DP as I have a bung there. Eliminate another possible culprit. As far as acceptable BP I can refer to Henkes trackday car again with a 1.8t Lupo E85 on a s258, 480whp with less BP than boost. *You don't have to do a drag car to achieve that.* I'll try to get Henke chime in.
> 
> I do realize stepping up in turbine size will hurt my engine response to some degree but as long as I stop melting plugs and EGT probes me in fat city so much I know it :thumbup:


Achievable doesn't necessarily mean desirable for the use of the motor and turbo. A full steady state application like a drag car, yes - a complex application like F1 with 20,000+ rpm rev limit and needing the turbo at specific peaky narrow range, yes. However, you need to carefully evaluate what and how you use the motor when you make your selection. 

Remember how I mentioned that BP ratio is going to be dynamic, well, don't expect to have a 1:1 ratio throughout the powerband. It's not a bad tradeoff overall, for your specific use, to have say that magic 1:1 ratio somewhere in the midrange and accept that it'll rise a bit towards redline. A combo open enough to have BP ratio of 1:1 or less at redline will be a pig as far as turbo response down low, it's inevitable. 

A turbo of the size of the one that you use is well within the range of what can be made to work (it's not like were talking about 5 liter iron type of displacement). I would really look into optimizing things and find out what's causing the high EGTs. As I mentioned before too, timing advance that's not advanced enough will tend to heat things in the hotside more than they need to be (so is poor cam selection to a lesser level). What I'm trying to get at is that there are probably ways to make what you have work efficiently without taxing the usability of the setup. :beer:


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> Another point here, I will measure BP in DP as I have a bung there. Eliminate another possible culprit. As far as acceptable BP I can refer to Henkes trackday car again with a 1.8t Lupo E85 on a s258, 480whp with less BP than boost. *You don't have to do a drag car to achieve that.* I'll try to get Henke chime in.
> 
> I do realize stepping up in turbine size will hurt my engine response to some degree but as long as I stop melting plugs and EGT probes me in fat city so much I know it :thumbup:


Achievable doesn't necessarily mean desirable for the use of the motor and turbo. A full steady state application like a drag car, yes - a complex application like F1 with 20,000+ rpm rev limit and needing the turbo at specific peaky narrow range, yes. However, you need to carefully evaluate what and how you use the motor when you make your selection. 

Remember how I mentioned that BP ratio is going to be dynamic, well, don't expect to have a 1:1 ratio throughout the powerband. It's not a bad tradeoff overall, for your specific use, to have say that magic 1:1 ratio somewhere in the midrange and accept that it'll rise a bit towards redline. A combo open enough to have BP ratio of 1:1 or less at redline will be a pig as far as turbo response down low, it's inevitable. 

A turbo of the size of the one that you use is well within the range of what can be made to work (it's not like were talking about 5 liter iron type of displacement). I would really look into optimizing things and find out what's causing the high EGTs. As I mentioned before too, timing advance that's not advanced enough will tend to heat things in the hotside more than they need to be (so is poor cam selection to a lesser level). What I'm trying to get at is that there are probably ways to make what you have work efficiently without taxing the usability of the setup. :beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Achievable doesn't necessarily mean desirable for the use of the motor and turbo. A full steady state application like a drag car, yes - a complex application like F1 with 20,000+ rpm rev limit and needing the turbo at specific peaky narrow range, yes. However, you need to carefully evaluate what and how you use the motor when you make your selection.
> 
> Remember how I mentioned that BP ratio is going to be dynamic, well, don't expect to have a 1:1 ratio throughout the powerband. It's not a bad tradeoff overall, for your specific use, to have say that magic 1:1 ratio somewhere in the midrange and accept that it'll rise a bit towards redline. A combo open enough to have BP ratio of 1:1 or less at redline will be a pig as far as turbo response down low, it's inevitable.
> 
> A turbo of the size of the one that you use is well within the range of what can be made to work (it's not like were talking about 5 liter iron type of displacement). I would really look into optimizing things and find out what's causing the high EGTs. As I mentioned before too, timing advance that's not advanced enough will tend to heat things in the hotside more than they need to be (so is poor cam selection to a lesser level). What I'm trying to get at is that there are probably ways to make what you have work efficiently without taxing the usability of the setup. :beer:


My timing was dialed in on the Dyno. Any more timing gave less power. Lambda is 0.84. Henkes lupo is just as responsive as my car only he say he has no more BP than boost. 

From what I can understand max BP at redline should be less than 0.5bar. 

I can understand you guys dig the 30r wheel for a motor like mine but over here where peeps look closely at EGT and BP - not so much. 

I tested a Dyno without the cat I run now before I stroked it and saw only minor difference. This was in the 410-420 WHP region. 100 cell metal cat. 



Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Your car is not doing only 6500, is it?
Why is that indicated in the dyno graph?

Maybe the GT30 is a bit on the small side for a stroked engine, and good for a stock one. Just keep on updating us


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

There was something with the Dynapack so he couldn't rev higher. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Why is everyone blaming hardware.
Am i the only one that thinks its been tuned carelessly with egts like that?
People/tuners know whats safe, you tune within those limits and the outcome is whats safely acheivable for the given hardware.

Sort weak aread out like DP (4inch expansion chamber maybe?), rid of the cat, then tune again WITHIN safe egt limits.

Its been pushed too hard, the end. Just to make impressive numbers on the forums. 
A 30r is only capable of so much, even with e85. If you arent happy with that and want high 500hp you spec'd the wrong turbo for your wants/needs.

P.s. I love this car and it certainly is impressive regardless of numbers.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

superkarl said:


> Why is everyone blaming hardware.
> Am i the only one that thinks its been tuned carelessly with egts like that?
> People/tuners know whats safe, you tune within those limits and the outcome is whats safely acheivable for the given hardware.
> 
> ...


I normally don't respond to ppl like you but I will make an exemption in this case. I did not push the turbo too hard just to make impressive numbers on forums, if you can read you will see I had 1000c egt as low as 12psi boost. I was told egt sensors are unreliable and not to worry too much about it. As far as my tune being a careless project I suggest you try and do it better. 

Ive heard from 5 different professional tuners over here that the only thing wrong with my setup is my 30r wheel, thats why I look closer at the 30r wheel as the culprit.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> My timing was dialed in on the Dyno. Any more timing gave less power. Lambda is 0.84. Henkes lupo is just as responsive as my car only he say he has no more BP than boost.
> 
> From what I can understand max BP at redline should be less than 0.5bar.
> 
> ...


Ok, the timing advance is optimized, and the AFR is spot on for the fuel. 

We know yo run a cat, how is the rest of the exhaust system including wastegate? Any chambered muffler or tight bend(s)? 

I'm not going to fixate on arguing the ideal BP ratio but 0.5:1 at redline suggests cross over in the lower range. Not sure that's something you want to have in a circuit car, but I guess you guy do things differently over there. 

This is what dynamic BP ratio looked like in responsive 2.0 liter turbo setup (slightly smaller hotside than yours but good exhaust). As you can see BP ratio is at 1:1 at spool which promote response, 1.5:1 at peak torque, and climbs to 2:1 by redline.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Ok, the timing advance is optimized, and the AFR is spot on for the fuel.
> 
> We know yo run a cat, how is the rest of the exhaust system including wastegate? Any chambered muffler or tight bend(s)?
> 
> ...



Theres no sharp bends and I have a straight turbo muffler with no baffles 3 inch pipes all the way back. Tial 38mm wg rerouted to DP. I'll do a post turbine BP check asap. 

That's pretty much what I saw as well. What turbine, whp, EGT, lambda, fuel type, exhaust system/setup and timing is going on there?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Ok, the timing advance is optimized, and the AFR is spot on for the fuel.


Yes, and at higher PR's, you're not only fighting the physical restriction of turbine outlet and downstream BP's but you're also driving the comp through increased pressures on the other side which is trying to slow inertia and does to a certain extent. This is where a very good boost controller comes in


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Another point I just came across talking with Henke is the exhaust manifold style and shape. As he runs an equal length mani where runners are 46cm long to the collector theres much more space for air inside those runners as compared to a log style mani which would affect BP, or what does the fluid dynamic engineers in here have to say about that?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

equal length runners will lessen the bp somewhat but it wont change the characteristics in how a quick spooling turbo comes on. It will actually take a performance hit there as it will delay spool and response. We are dealing w/ pressures here and differentials in regards to flow and energy transference. Depending on your application, it follows specific paths. No one component, will overcome a weakness somewhere else. This is motorsports, there are compromises to be made everywhere.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Leaning towards a PT62 wheel on a Garret 35R turbine 0.82ar now


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

My local tuner at Civinco just discovered that I was boosting much better when I was at his dyno than what the motor does now. I managed 2.2 bars at 6200rpms back then and cant do more than 1.7 - 2bars at 6200rpm now....


Old boost:









Sooo, maybe the plug I melted got stuck in the turbine and slows everything right down like a big brake and creates a massive BP....

I'll go back to Civinco and make a dyno run to confirm this asap.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Got a pic of you wg dump reroute?

Is it dumped in haphazardly causing turbulence??



Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Leaning towards a PT62 wheel on a Garret 35R turbine 0.82ar now


I know we have chatted on fb...

reading this (and smiling at karls expert experienced contribution)

some things if you have the data to graph on same plot would show some correlation..
you have plenum boost, manifold back pressure and hopefully egt - all against an rpm so could be graphed? This would show any correlation where something goes up whilst something else falls away... and at what rpm its going it at.
Repeating this sort of test on different boost gradients will show a trend of cause and effect.

I will also throw it out there, at these levels of power etc, a narrow angle merge collector is going to be the more appropriate feeder to the turbo over a log style manifold. Increased VE from reduced back pressure and increased cylinder scavenging would lift the top end for no additional effort in my experience. Some side effect of transient initial spool perhaps from a larger volume manifold, but this is a track car... It lives >4krpm and revs

http://youtu.be/hR0BGbkFu7A

http://youtu.be/NekTRPx68zs

As you know my turbo spec (which I got from arnold originally) is PT62 comp GT3582 now on tial hotside.


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Gulfstream said:


> My local tuner at Civinco just discovered that I was boosting much better when I was at his dyno than what the motor does now. I managed 2.2 bars at 6200rpms back then and cant do more than 1.7 - 2bars at 6200rpm now....
> 
> 
> Old boost:
> ...




Wait - you were spiking 3.5 bar?


----------



## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

18T_BT said:


> Wait - you were spiking 3.5 bar?


2.5bar.
1bar at 1000RPM is probably ambient pressure.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> I will also throw it out there, at these levels of power etc, a narrow angle merge collector is going to be the more appropriate feeder to the turbo over a log style manifold. Increased VE from reduced back pressure and increased cylinder scavenging would lift the top end for no additional effort in my experience. Some side effect of transient initial spool perhaps from a larger volume manifold, but this is a track car... It lives >4krpm and revs
> 
> http://youtu.be/hR0BGbkFu7A
> 
> ...


Arnold? 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Narrow angle merge is pretty ideal for top end power and exhaust scavenging. A tube manifold will yield certain benefits. The only thing is, there are always compromises to be made. Bill isn't driving his car 14hrs to Germany and back. He is not driving his vehicle from one country to another like you did recently to Norway and flogging the car and driving back. He is also not entirely concerned with longevity and heat building up in there for casual driving and elevated underhood temps. Having said this, my older, less flowey manifolds have made over 600whp and have propelled a full weight GLI to a 10.6sec pass at well over 130mph. The ss manifolds are better so, for all intents and purposes, does the job. You are afterall making more power on a 71R then most on any platform. Lets see what it can do on a bigger snail :thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Look at the mani in the first video. SS version of that 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Gulfstream said:


> Look at the mani in the first video. SS version of that
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk



I have a feeling that would cost an arm and a leg to produce, no?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

that is a beautiful manifold in the first video


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Arnold?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


Arnold built mine originally yes.. 
it wears new bearings and turbine these days but still the same spec
luv it


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Narrow angle merge is pretty ideal for top end power and exhaust scavenging. A tube manifold will yield certain benefits. The only thing is, there are always compromises to be made. Bill isn't driving his car 14hrs to Germany and back. He is not driving his vehicle from one country to another like you did recently to Norway and flogging the car and driving back. He is also not entirely concerned with longevity and heat building up in there for casual driving and elevated underhood temps. Having said this, my older, less flowey manifolds have made over 600whp and have propelled a full weight GLI to a 10.6sec pass at well over 130mph. The ss manifolds are better so, for all intents and purposes, does the job. You are afterall making more power on a 71R then most on any platform. Lets see what it can do on a bigger snail :thumbup:


driving from A to B on public roads is'nt exactly taxing anything Arnold nor heating up under hood temps..  
Track use is this cars use.. + travelling there.

My full-race mani has been on there well over 5 years now.. on its second engine, and evolved into a tial hotside vband fitment after I modified it. You suggest a tubular merge collected manifold would crack I presume.. so can Log mani's Arnold 

I think for the top end power where this particular engine is being spec'd for, it would benefit from evolving from the log style to narrow angle merge collector setup

The power Olsten makes is stunning.. a freak of nature for sure... E85 has to be the fuel of the gods to help achieve this.

The question is just change the spec of turbo vs start over in a different direction. One is significantly cheaper and straight fwd to do and worth a punt first.. Retain his existing mani... BUT top end it wont be flowing as efficiently as a narrow angle merge collector one on these airflows and power output. Improve efficiency or just upsize and slug thru it kinda question I guess


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Bill, I would probably guess that Oistein probably has more miles on his car in a couple of years then you probably have in 5. BTW, my manifold is not a standard iron grade that takes up the majority of the market these days. Its a pretty beefy brand of proprietary SS iron alloy that laughs at the kind of temps that one sees whether you're going for groceries or driving towards the finish line. The weakest points would be the lone welds that affixes the flanges to mount the turbo and wastegate. The daily driving contributes to the overall wear and tear the manifold and everything around it. Not as trivial as you would think. Manifolds, whether OEM or aftermarket, have succumbed to much lesser rigors then one sees on the race track and on completely stock cars. Also, I do build manifolds as well from scratch,Bill, on that rare occasion when nothing else will work in terms of fitment of a specific turbo or housing. I cnc the flanges and stitch them together as well as the next guy. While I do take the necessary steps to make sure that every joint is as strong as it can possibly be, inside/out, I wouldnt even come close to betting anything of importance in my life to guarantee that it will never succumb to the forces that be (i'd bet the farm that my cast will last longer then any tubular in terms of overall useage). Full-race used to have a lifetime warranty on their manifolds. I think they now have a 1yr warranty from the date of the receipt that covers defects in materials and workmanship, whatever that means.

I do agree that a nice merge collector is a positive thing in terms of top end and overall flow but until I see a turbo rated at a specific hp level fall well short of its goals on our mani, I'll stand by it. Otherwise, I'll get into the corebox and massage its collector to optimize it even further at the expense of boost creep...

EDIT:
I've helped set up multiple vehicles that on my simple, reliable setups to make 3,4,5, 600whp so far. I've never set up a 600hp (on paper) setup other then formerlysilverjetta's car but will be setting up a 5835R (I'm forcing PTE's hand on this particular combo) on a local A4 Avant project. I just had a 76R sized turbo on an A4 on 22psi, 93oct (as i've mentioned b4) pull 400awhp on a base file with a 1.8L with drop in rods. No cams, intake, tb... on a mustang awd dyno (aka heartbreaker. Golf R dyno'ed 367awhp the same day on APR's stage 4 setup on 26psi). The system is making what the turbo is rated for without drama or fanfare. BTW, Oistein was making pretty impressive numbers with pump/meth as well...


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

I do have to say, Arnolds manifold, is really nice and the proprietary Ferritic-Chromium-Nickel Alloy that it is made from can withstand 1800°F of continuous duty; operative word - CONTINUOUS and intermittent temps of 2000°F, and has a very low thermal co-efficient of expansion, as well as very good corrosion resistance.
It's definitely an upgrade from the other manifolds on the market.

As for street vs track use in comparison to a tubular, this is definitely a dilemma, PPT's manifold is efficient and definitely most reliable even against APR's Inconel 625 Manifold, this is b/c of the low thermal coefficient of expansion. Alternatively, I have experience in designing and fabricating tubular manifolds and sorry to say if it's made from 304/316/317 stainless it will inevitably fail from 3 phenomena:

1) Intergranular Corrosion between 800°F to 1600°F from Chromium and Carbide precipitates.
2) Sigma Phase Embrittlement between 1050°F and 1700°F reducing toughness to withstand shock loading and vibration.
3) 885°F Embrittlement where the materials grain structure recrystallizes, significantly lowering its strength to merely equivalent to a piece of wood :laugh:

The only 300 series stainless materials that can service such conditions reliably are 309S, 310H, 321, and 347; and using such materials shall be welded using the same filler metal as the base or even better, with Inconel 625.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks Don. Much appreciated. Through our production oriented minds, we make compromises b/w maximum efficiency and ultimate reliability. The exotic alloy world is brutal and we are relegated to thinking outside of the box. My manifolds have been an evolution that has seen 3 previous generations and I really did throw the kitchen sink into these while also producing them here in North America... I have quite a few other developments in the works which consists of inconel fasteners and stainless alloy bracketry. A lot of this has been pretty ground breaking stuff for me as this environment is brutal and the exotic alloys thermal expansion rate and hardness like to shake things loose. Material stability in this environment is unsurpassed, however, and, if everything holds together (which it has) its almost indestructible.

BTW, we all know that your transverse intakes is fantastic but we've been on a longitudinal kick these days and I'm very impressed w/ SEM's long intake manis. It will be used in all of my builds from now on. This is coming from a guy with a sheetmetal intake plenum design programmed on my mill :thumbup:


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bill, I would probably guess that Oistein probably has more miles on his car in a couple of years then you probably have in 5.


True - lol.

Dont get me wrong arnold your mani is reliable but the one we bought way back when, which has just recently been sold on with the GT30 which was strapped to it, was cracked. Small blow and only evident when it was all removed for new stroker motor and GT35 install.

When you and others say you have achieved 500-600bhp etc on your mani what does that mean? What would the same spec setup on narrow angle merge collector achieve? Has this comparison been done? I recall eons ago a plot of log vs tubular... same turbo..

http://www.full-race.com/articles/1.8T_turbo_manifold_test_writeup.pdf

This was the comparison I remembered from way back. I know the atp log is'nt in the same league as your arnold..


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Don® said:


> I do have to say, Arnolds manifold, is really nice and the proprietary Ferritic-Chromium-Nickel Alloy that it is made from can withstand 1800°F of continuous duty; operative word - CONTINOUS and intermittent temps of 2000°F, and has a very low thermal co-efficient of expansion, as well as very good corrosion resistance.
> It's definitely an upgrade from the other manifolds on the market.


Totally agree. Its one of a list of one I would trust personally.

Its a very decent mani, from a good guy too 

man hug in the post - lol

:thumbup:


----------



## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

LOL, hey I remember that write-up, I helped Bob with the data to submit to Full-Race.
Damn, how things come around and how time flies...


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

badger5 said:


> True - lol.
> 
> Dont get me wrong arnold your mani is reliable but the one we bought way back when, which has just recently been sold on with the GT30 which was strapped to it, was cracked. Small blow and only evident when it was all removed for new stroker motor and GT35 install.
> 
> ...


The one you bought back when was version 2 of the manifold when it used to be constructed of class 65 ductile iron. It doesn't even belong in the same room as the current ones 

When I say others, I mean exactly that. Its consistent and the power that is achieved is what you expect of it. Would you even fathom that a 3071r, albeit, in billet form like Oistein's would make the kind of power it has made? On pump/meth, he dyno'ed at 520whp. Lets just say for the sake of argument, you take 50whp away from that and chalk it up to a high reading dyno and you're still left with impressive numbers. How many 'tubular' manifolds have done this on this platform with way better numbers across many different dyno's? How many PTE 58 wheeled setups have you seen run mid 10 sec passes on any setup? I mean your natural inclination would be to attach said result, attach it to some exhaust/flow theory and say that the results would be better. It just might be but you can say that about anything. Bigger cams will make more power, higher compression will make more power, stickier tires will yield better results, etc etc. I am not trying to compare or denounce theory and alternative paths. I'm just saying that it just plain works and works well. :thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

from O's issues to a godlike dissertation on alloys and manifolds with merge collecting and scavenging. good reading.

helping O?? some....


are you still down on comp on a couple cylinders?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm doing hone and piston rings this winter. Will plan the head as well to up the CR some. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> The one you bought back when was version 2 of the manifold when it used to be constructed of class 65 ductile iron. It doesn't even belong in the same room as the current ones
> 
> When I say others, I mean exactly that. Its consistent and the power that is achieved is what you expect of it. Would you even fathom that a 3071r, albeit, in billet form like Oistein's would make the kind of power it has made? On pump/meth, he dyno'ed at 520whp. Lets just say for the sake of argument, you take 50whp away from that and chalk it up to a high reading dyno and you're still left with impressive numbers. How many 'tubular' manifolds have done this on this platform with way better numbers across many different dyno's? How many PTE 58 wheeled setups have you seen run mid 10 sec passes on any setup? I mean your natural inclination would be to attach said result, attach it to some exhaust/flow theory and say that the results would be better. It just might be but you can say that about anything. Bigger cams will make more power, higher compression will make more power, stickier tires will yield better results, etc etc. I am not trying to compare or denounce theory and alternative paths. I'm just saying that it just plain works and works well. :thumbup:


Olstens is amazing.. truely is.. but its also in a class of One..
No other car has achieved this.. that I've heard of.

What I will stick by, is a narrow angle merge collector manifold Will allow more, without having to work it harder with more boost etc.. And it will drop his uber high egt's and reduce back pressures. At some point you have to move on whilst chasing higher and higher power figures.. No "might", it "will" 

What you and I have currently is "it just works", making x,y,z power/torque etc at some boost and some ign level.... What I suggest is it would work "better" and I qualify "better" as in more power for some reduction in low end by going narrow angle merge collector design manifold.


I look fwd to your new manifold btw. Customer due to drop his $$ with me this week.

I so wish we had E85 here in the UK... It seems amazing stuff. That for me is the big differentiator in his amazing power from this setup.

:thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> Olstens is amazing.. truely is.. but its also in a class of One..
> No other car has achieved this.. that I've heard of.
> 
> What I will stick by, is a narrow angle merge collector manifold Will allow more, without having to work it harder with more boost etc.. And it will drop his uber high egt's and reduce back pressures. At some point you have to move on whilst chasing higher and higher power figures.. No "might", it "will"
> ...


Really? I find that hard to believe as I didn't build this car for max power but for motor response as a trackday/DD car. I even have stock exhaust cam and the mildest intake cam... surely some other 3071 has more power.

How do you calculate the bhp from the 529whp at 2bars in the Dynapack hubdyno? Do you add 12% from that number or do you multiply by 0.88 as the power originates from the motor and not the wheels... ?


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Gulfstream said:


> Really? I find that hard to believe as I didn't build this car for max power but for motor response as a trackday/DD car. I even have stock exhaust cam and the mildest intake cam... surely some other 3071 has more power.
> 
> How do you calculate the bhp from the 529whp at 2bars in the Dynapack hubdyno? Do you add 12% from that number or do you multiply by 0.88 as the power originates from the motor and not the wheels... ?


.88x = 529

x = 529/.88


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

suffocatemymind said:


> .88x = 529
> 
> x = 529/.88


I meant divide; my englis super bigg second langugaue 

So I understand you take 529 / 0.88 = 601bhp ??


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

badger5 said:


> Olstens is amazing.. truely is.. but its also in a class of One..
> No other car has achieved this.. that I've heard of.
> 
> What I will stick by, is a narrow angle merge collector manifold Will allow more, without having to work it harder with more boost etc.. And it will drop his uber high egt's and reduce back pressures. At some point you have to move on whilst chasing higher and higher power figures.. No "might", it "will"
> ...


Dont think I am not understanding your stance. It is a valid one. As one can gather, there are design constraints that I am working against when designing these things without getting into super expensive tooling and a piece that will most likely be priced out of most ppl's budgets. One thing on a medium volume manifold, when you close the collector to induce scavenging it induces creep which I wanted to avoid as well. You also want to pressurize it a bit so you can have decent boost control. Also, large volume casted pieces get completely out of hand in this world as the success ratio plummets and that is tacked on to you bill... Anyhow, the mani wasnt a guessing game. It was designed with specific fitment and flow in mind. i also played around with individual runner volume to try to equalize pressures to keep things sane.

As for the E85, yes, it does facilitate higher power potential. But he jumped from 520-597 on the same dyno with more then fuel changes. He installed an intake cam, larger housing, larger injectors and a retune. Surely, they are not there just for show...

Fact of the matter is, the car is making more then is advertised right now. He's hit a power wall and what you can reasonably expect from the turbo. Lets see what happens when we have something with even higher potential attached to it. Sometimes the xyz's dont mean as much in the real world... Trust me, all of my products are developed on this very computer first....

EDIT:
Here is a result I found comparing E85 vs w/m injection. Mustang Saleen pulls on the same day on 50/50 mix vs E85 on same timing curve. Total timing is 18deg's due to the conservative mixture.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Would like some opinions on what comp wheel my motor is best suited for. Had mind set on the PT62 wheel but mby PT58 is better... Garret 35R turbine and chra is written is stone. 

2008cc, E85, mild cams, 9:1CR

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Really? I find that hard to believe as I didn't build this car for max power but for motor response as a trackday/DD car. I even have stock exhaust cam and the mildest intake cam... surely some other 3071 has more power.
> 
> How do you calculate the bhp from the 529whp at 2bars in the Dynapack hubdyno? Do you add 12% from that number or do you multiply by 0.88 as the power originates from the motor and not the wheels... ?


Whatever % calc is done will be at best a "guestimate"
No other GT30 unit I have seen or mapped has come close to your numbers.. All pump fuel normal petrol (gas) here.. none of the E85 super juice yours gets to run on.

Cams would help your top end
atw figures are'nt something we use much in the UK... and from what I see on my dyno, no % will account for differing rolling losses and drag... Large range from my own cars losses to lesser ones..

Your car is Mutant - hehe


----------



## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Dont think I am not understanding your stance. It is a valid one. As one can gather, there are design constraints that I am working against when designing these things without getting into super expensive tooling and a piece that will most likely be priced out of most ppl's budgets. One thing on a medium volume manifold, when you close the collector to induce scavenging it induces creep which I wanted to avoid as well. You also want to pressurize it a bit so you can have decent boost control. Also, large volume casted pieces get completely out of hand in this world as the success ratio plummets and that is tacked on to you bill... Anyhow, the mani wasnt a guessing game. It was designed with specific fitment and flow in mind. i also played around with individual runner volume to try to equalize pressures to keep things sane.
> 
> As for the E85, yes, it does facilitate higher power potential. But he jumped from 520-597 on the same dyno with more then fuel changes. He installed an intake cam, larger housing, larger injectors and a retune. Surely, they are not there just for show...
> 
> ...



only 20bhp ish difference? between E85 and pump +50/50wmi?
Oiesten I think said he saw 40% increase in torque for the fuel swap alone... which is stunning.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i say some cat purples from Don and atmospheric WG dump. coupled with 10:1 and 2.0l(still my intentiont o do as well) you should have a great setup. especially that sick turbine housing arnold has that you run(i'm jealous)


just think..i've nailed 486whp on 92octane(on a rough tune for my 1000's) with the V1 wheel, built aeb, 3651, and meth. so after all of this, you have a better manifold and E85 so the power is there..but it seems, to me and i'm no one, that the motor has taken enough of a beating over the last, what, nearly two years? time for a refresh!! :beer::beer::thumbup:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> Whatever % calc is done will be at best a "guestimate"
> No other GT30 unit I have seen or mapped has come close to your numbers.. All pump fuel normal petrol (gas) here.. none of the E85 super juice yours gets to run on.
> 
> Cams would help your top end
> ...


Yes, Arnold has an exhaust 3651 cam to complement my 3651 intake. I gained around 100NM from swapping to E85 compared to gas + w/m, but this was at 2bars and I understand E85 responds well to higher boost levels. Lower boost its not a huge difference. 

PT5835R .72ar in my future me thinks.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> I gained around 100NM from swapping to E85 compared to gas + w/m, but this was at 2bars and I understand E85 responds well to higher boost levels. Lower boost its not a huge difference.


really? I'd love to see graphs and charts. email me: [email protected]


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> really? I'd love to see graphs and charts. email me: [email protected]


Everything is in this thread :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

I follow this thread closely; as it's always a fascinating read, but I seldom post, because I feel I have nothing of substance to add.

That said; have you considered the gtx3576r?

It seems like it may be the magic bullet in your particular situation.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I follow this thread closely; as it's always a fascinating read, but I seldom post, because I feel I have nothing of substance to add.
> 
> That said; have you considered the gtx3576r?
> 
> It seems like it may be the magic bullet in your particular situation.


Any inputs are always welcome. 

Yes, I have been looking hard at that turbo and it was my first choice for a while but according to some ppl the gtx design is more laggy than it should be. I have no first hand experience with them so I listen to those who have.

For now it looks like Garrets 35R turbine/chra .62/.72ar matched with a PT58mm billet compressor is a better choice.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> For now it looks like Garrets 35R turbine/chra .62/.72ar matched with a PT58mm billet compressor is a better choice.


this sounds fun


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Vegeta Gti said:


> this sounds fun


Yeah. + haldex + slicks + my motor on E85 boosting 30psi and all I need is a sunny day :laugh:


----------



## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Always find your thread interesting to read just really wish we had corn juice on tap in the UK 

Am currently considering a GT35 chra and turbined turbo now my car is no longer my daily with some form of billet and like yourself (although not gtx due to spool reasons)

Does a .72ar housing exist for the gt35's as would really be a sweet spot for them? If not need to get arnold on the case 

Either way will be continuing to follow this thread closely :beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah, I think the 35R turbine is a good option when you get into 2L, E85, cams and so on territory. There is no .72ar housing as of now BUT Arnold is looking into machining out the housing for the 30R wheel to fit the 35R wheel opcorn: I already have the 30R .72ar housing so fingers x'd.


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Gulfstream said:


> Yeah. + haldex + slicks + my motor on E85 boosting 30psi and all I need is a sunny day :laugh:


:beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

To be continued:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6869672-Seat-Leon-AWD-PPT-2008cc-PT5835R-E85-build

:beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Here is one of the reasons I had a massive power loss. Split diaphragm in WG also the WG couldn't close properly and was always partly open bypassing airflow.










As well as shorter throw. This WG is toasted:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I think I may have a similar issue :/

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I think I may have a similar issue :/
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


You probably do man. Your car has been together for what? 6 years daily driven?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

[email protected] Performance said:


> You probably do man. Your car has been together for what? 6 years daily driven?


yup. last time i did a wg service was in 2012. 

oh well.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Good thing I have a 2nd one just hanging around. I'll connect water to this one.


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Gulfstream said:


> I'll connect water to this one.


Considering the extreme heat these things endure; I've always been mystified as to why more people don't use the water cooling function on these wastegates.


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Gulfstream said:


> Here is one of the reasons I had a massive power loss. Split diaphragm in WG also the WG couldn't close properly and was always partly open bypassing airflow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn, I wouldnt expect that out of one of those..


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Prob not so much the heat (although it may help in heat thresholds) but pumping 25-30+psi for years through that little chamber... The diaphragm is always the weakest link. Every so often, they need changing.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] Performance said:


> Considering the extreme heat these things endure; I've always been mystified as to why more people don't use the water cooling function on these wastegates.


Didn't have any waterlines on the first one.


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Gulfstream said:


> Didn't have any waterlines on the first one.


It's designed for it though. I've dug around, and found nothing but half baked reasons for not using the water cooling. Most every reason I've found was essentially that the user just didn't want to go through the hassle of plumbing it. Such a high heat component would certainly benefit greatly from cooling; if not for the diaphragm, but to keep the spring from going 'soft' above a certain heat threshold.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] Performance said:


> It's designed for it though. I've dug around, and found nothing but half baked reasons for not using the water cooling. Most every reason I've found was essentially that the user just didn't want to go through the hassle of plumbing it. Such a high heat component would certainly benefit greatly from cooling; if not for the diaphragm, but to keep the spring from going 'soft' above a certain heat threshold.


My first Tial was not designed for water. No connections for water....


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

Gulfstream said:


> My first Tial was not designed for water. No connections for water....


I understand that, but why not utilize it?


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

[email protected] Performance said:


> I understand that, but why not utilize it?


Yeah, I'll hook up water to the new one.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

one day i'll run a vbanded wg lol.


----------



## brwmogazos (Oct 12, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> My first Tial was not designed for water. No connections for water....



I guess thats the reason Tial produces the MVS-A wg nowadays.

I will be swapping my MVS for the MVS-A soon as i dont plan to water cool my WG. Its anodised red colour has faded too...+ you get all the spring set with the new WGates whereas with the "old" ones you had to order from abroad and pay loads for just one spring.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

brwmogazos said:


> I guess thats the reason Tial produces the MVS-A wg nowadays.
> 
> I will be swapping my MVS for the MVS-A soon as i dont plan to water cool my WG. Its anodised red colour has faded too...+ you get all the spring set with the new WGates whereas with the "old" ones you had to order from abroad and pay loads for just one spring.


As I have a watercooled WG just hanging around I'll use it. If it fails and I have boost problems I'll go with a larger unit of newer design.


----------



## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Vegeta Gti said:


> one day i'll run a vbanded wg lol.


How can you not. I hated the flanged ones. I wont even install one without the vband option.:laugh:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i don't have a TIG so i can't weld on a vband. i'm not going to use my mid level MIG to weld high quality stainless i used to make my exhaust lol


----------



## kcline.williams17 (8 mo ago)

Does the gt30 turbo fit straight on my seat Leon fr


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

No. Not even remotely close

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


----------

