# The real standalone vs PNP thread.



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

This is a topic that has been infecting other threads and its time to get all the info out in one thread. This will mainly be for the people who have not chosen what they are doing for their cars as of yet.Hopefully we can get more into when people should buy either type of system in this thread then has happened in other threads. Alot people seem to take offense whenever you suggest anything other then what they have done and thats not what this is about at all. And just for the record I have done everything from canned chip tunes to tuning the chips myself to megasquirt and now I use haltech.

Here are a few of the reasons why we should use standalone.

It all comes down to this. Do you want to build your system around a chip or do you want to have the ability to build what you want?I know a few of you guys think this is the best thing since sliced bread but you dont know what else is out there.If you want any of the following now or in the future then your chip tune that costs almost as much as a standalone wont fit the bill.

1. other fuels besides pump gas
2. launch control
3.more boost
4. boost by gear
5. loose the diverter valve
6. run other types of coils other then stock

And those are just the ones off the top of my head.I know mine will control haldex water injection and many many other things like that.The price is not that much more so if your going to spend the money spend it once.

I choose standalone because its cheaper in the end because stock wont do it for what I needed.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok here we have the C2 fuel kits. Looks like they run in the $825 to $1349 range. They claim 300whp on stage1 and 400whp on stage2 with 700? whp on stage4. The kit seems to come with injectors (anyone have any info on the brand and size). Some people have really good luck with these and some people seem to have alot of trouble getting these set up properly. I believe this has alot to do with the general condition of the car to begin with as well as common sense of the installer.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The lugtronic PNP ecu. runs about $1450 to $1595 depending on what car you have. Add another $240 for injectors to this and you have yourself a complete fueling kit. Claims to be able to be up and running in less then 30min. Fully tunable system that you will never outgrow. Able to use any fuel you choose,blablabla.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Lets not count used items selling for much less than retail. Anyways where does an OEM system like my digifart sit?

Also, lets consider canned tunes, not the custom stuff Jeff can setup for you.

Finally got mine to run correctly for once today, and with modded oem program:laugh: I'm idling 14.5:1 or so.

I have had good luck with a c2 obd2 tune on a friend's car. It ran better than the stock obd1 tune, got better mileage (+2-4mpg). At the time though he wanted more power and the pro maf setup was not available. 

What really scared him though was the car running 13:1 on the dyno on a stock compression vr. He sold the setup to his roommate, and 2 years later it still is getting beat on daily.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Lets not count used items selling for much less than retail. Anyways where does an OEM system like my digifart sit?
> 
> Also, lets consider canned tunes, not the custom stuff Jeff can setup for you.
> 
> Finally got mine to run correctly for once today, and with modded oem program:laugh: I'm idling 14.5:1 or so


There have been good results with digifant. If you have the patience to tune it then it can work for you. You also have to know a little about what your doing to do this. The main downfall of all stock systems is that your limited to what the stock hardware is capable of. To get a feature the car didnt come with you have to give something up. Some ECUs have more extra inputs and outputs to be used like EGR soliniods and things like that but some have none. Then modification of the chip file to use this is a whole different issue. Honda guys have taken this to a whole new level by doing this.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

It took me an hour of time to barely tweak an ME7 map- it takes me 15 minutes to remap fuel @ a given boost level for back to back dyno runs of different parts. 

That's why we use standalone for the engine dyno. Stock ECU is tuneable, but slowwwww to work with.


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## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

Chips are good for people who lack the knowledge of tuning and are happy with one goal... an ok/good setup that works, and there is nothing wrong with that.

If you strive for perfection, like to upgrade, like to rely on yourself, play with programs then SEM is the way to go. Honestly price shouldn't be a factor when choosing engine management... that's like saying you would settle with a grade 11 dropout instead of a Harvard grad with lots of life experience and common sense.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ALLGORIMSHOW said:


> Chips are good for people who lack the knowledge of tuning and are happy with one goal... an ok/good setup that works, and there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> If you strive for perfection, like to upgrade, like to rely on yourself, play with programs then SEM is the way to go. Honestly price shouldn't be a factor when choosing engine management... that's like saying you would settle with a grade 11 dropout instead of a Harvard grad with lots of life experience and common sense.


Agreed except for one thing, if price IS a factor you can't beat a megasquirt. You can even start simple and super cheap (MS1) and as your car evolves and your skills at tuning grow, upgrade to faster processors and more features until you wind up with an MS3/3X which has as many features and capablilities as anything available. And still costs less than $1000.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The ONLY time that standalone has a hard time is when someone *needs* to pass scan port OBD2 emissions. There's no real solution to that, and that's where the chips shine. Everything else, game on.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I am in for the knowledge. Great idea!


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The ONLY time that standalone has a hard time is when someone *needs* to pass scan port OBD2 emissions. There's no real solution to that, and that's where the chips shine. Everything else, game on.


This is the reason I run chip tunes. No CEL's, readiness set, passes emissions every time. I've had good luck with C2 tunes, 30#, 42# and 60# ProMAF tunes.


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

I run a chip because i wont to set it and forget it.... i dont have the skills to tune a car or time to play with it...


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

I've had experience with both chip tunes and standalone.
The main advantage to the chip tune is that the're easy to set up/run and still use the knock sensors.

One of the chip tunes I've dealt with was C2 42# OBD2 VR6, the car always ran a little too lean for my liking(high 12-low 13 AFRs). It also maxed out the injectors at approximately 400whp. We tried to run a 3.5 & 4bar FPR and it would still lean out. With water/meth injection it was a bit safer, the AFRs were in the mid-high 12:1 range.

Another car was also C2 42# OBD2 VR6, the car never ran right, the AFRs were okay but it made no power, the timing was always very conservative, usually between 7-12*, we switched it to Lugtronic and it finally made the power it was supposed to be making.

Then there was a C2 42# OBD2 2.0, it ran well but was a bit lean and melted a piston then got parted out.

As far as standalones go, I've installed/tuned an ECU from Lugtronic, it took me 5 min to get the car running just to check that everything is good with the ECU. Installation took 30 min including running the wiring loom into the car and running a vacuum line to the ECU.
Basic tuning was very easy, I had trouble getting the idle just right with the OBD2 throttle body but it wouldn't be a problem with the OBD1 TB/ISV or any other IACV.
Once we turned up the boost it was very easy to dial it in exactly how I wanted, it took about 30min-1hr to tune it up to 20psi, the car made very good power, it should be getting dyno'ed some time this spring when it comes back out.

I've also tuned 034EFI, SDS, Megasquirt, Maestro 7, ECU link, TEC3 and a few others, but I will write about them some other time. The only ECUs I've really hated was the Megasquirt units, but that's mainly due to the people that built them and their **** ups.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> I've had experience with both chip tunes and standalone.
> The main advantage to the chip tune is that the're easy to set up/run and still use the knock sensors.
> 
> One of the chip tunes I've dealt with was C2 42# OBD2 VR6, the car always ran a little too lean for my liking(high 12-low 13 AFRs). It also maxed out the injectors at approximately 400whp. We tried to run a 3.5 & 4bar FPR and it would still lean out. With water/meth injection it was a bit safer, the AFRs were in the mid-high 12:1 range.
> ...


I like the looks of the lugtronic but have no real experience with it. I have done the megasquirt and had decent results considering. My favorite in the new haltech stuff but its not plug and play.

It sounds like the lugtronic is just about as easy to install as the chip package. It also looses the unreliable MAFs and then you can also run a BOV instead of a DV valve.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

sp_golf said:


> The only ECUs I've really hated was the Megasquirt units, but that's mainly due to the people that built them and their **** ups.


There's a lot of ways to go wrong at the DIY end, same goes with anything. Those are just the most likely to be 'hacked' as they're pretty low cost. I'm dealing with a DTA S80, which is a great ecu, but installed and tuned by someone with their head and their ass misinstalled.eace:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Its not that big of a deal. All you really need to do if your going to wire it in is power the ecu up and hook up your crank and cam triggers. Crank the engine over and look at your computer and see if it registers a RPM. When you get it to do that then hook up the rest of the sensors and try to start. You will usually have to set up your crank angle in the software and when you get it to register on the crank pulley then you set up either your injector scale or pulse width to match your injectors. Then you need to do a TPS calibration and start it up.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Where does maestro me7 fall in to all of this?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Where does maestro me7 fall in to all of this?


In the slow and cumbersome but tunable catagory  It has its advantages and disadvantages but anything tunable to be able to use better fuel when available is a good thing.

I see I boned the thread title :laugh: I forgot to add drop in chips in the title like I had intended.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> I like the looks of the lugtronic but have no real experience with it. I have done the megasquirt and had decent results considering. My favorite in the new haltech stuff but its not plug and play.
> 
> It sounds like the lugtronic is just about as easy to install as the chip package. It also looses the unreliable MAFs and then you can also run a BOV instead of a DV valve.


I haven't dealt with Haltech yet but I've heard good things about them and there are a lot of high hp/dollar cars running it. I'm thinking of trying it on my car when I ditch the SDS.

The Lugtronic is about as easy to install as a chip if you get the PNP harness, everything is already setup to get the car running and driving. The software for it is very good too, there are a lot of options and it's pretty easy to navigate thru the different maps and settings.
The only things that take some time to install are the extra inputs/outputs like 2 step switch(can also be setup thru software), boost solenoid, water meth solenoid, map switch, etc.. 
But it's still easier than installing an EBC, WOT BOX, etc..


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> There's a lot of ways to go wrong at the DIY end, same goes with anything. Those are just the most likely to be 'hacked' as they're pretty low cost. I'm dealing with a DTA S80, which is a great ecu, but installed and tuned by someone with their head and their ass misinstalled.eace:


Yeah I've dealt with a few different companies that build them and I haven't been happy with either of them. The only trouble free one I've dealt with was built by one of my friends.
I don't like the idea of having to go into the ECU to fix problems or add things, I just want something reliable that I can install and start tuning, that's why I've stopped doing MS installs, I only do tuning.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> In the slow and cumbersome but tunable catagory  It has its advantages and disadvantages but anything tunable to be able to use better fuel when available is a good thing.
> 
> I see I boned the thread title :laugh: I forgot to add drop in chips in the title like I had intended.


:laugh: I hate it mostly because of having to wait 5min every time I make a change


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Yeah I've dealt with a few different companies that build them and I haven't been happy with either of them. The only trouble free one I've dealt with was built by one of my friends.
> I don't like the idea of having to go into the ECU to fix problems or add things, I just want something reliable that I can install and start tuning, that's why I've stopped doing MS installs, I only do tuning.


If you have it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing you dont have to fix problems. My car on standalone will start and run better and is more reliable from a tune standpoint then a chip will ever be. Just because you have the ability to change things doesnt mean you have to change anything.

Another thing to keep in mind for newer standalone systems (haltech and lugtronic) is that if I decide to hold my foot to the floor down the freeway my wideband correction will keep my engine safe. I can program in any target lambda I desire at any map point and the ECU will make it happen. I couple probably guess a tune and the correction from the ecu would save the engine.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> If you have it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing you dont have to fix problems. My car on standalone will start and run better and is more reliable from a tune standpoint then a chip will ever be. Just because you have the ability to change things doesnt mean you have to change anything.
> 
> Another thing to keep in mind for newer standalone systems (haltech and lugtronic) is that if I decide to hold my foot to the floor down the freeway my wideband correction will keep my engine safe. I can program in any target lambda I desire at any map point and the ECU will make it happen. I couple probably guess a tune and the correction from the ecu would save the engine.


I know, I do installing and tuning, what I'm saying is I don't want to have to open up the ECU and change diodes and drivers and add wires and resistors and all that bull****. That's why I don't like megasquirt.
I had one ECU that was supposed to be setup for direct fire coil, turns out it was setup to be used with a control module, but I didn't find that 'til after I fried the coil driver, and to this day that car hasn't ran. It will be up and running by this summer, but it would've been tuned and driving a long time ago if the owner got a proper stand alone from a reputable company..

And I know all about the lambda targets


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> I know, I do installing and tuning, what I'm saying is I don't want to have to open up the ECU and change diodes and drivers and add wires and resistors and all that bull****. That's why I don't like megasquirt.
> I had one ECU that was supposed to be setup for direct fire coil, turns out it was setup to be used with a control module, but I didn't find that 'til after I fried the coil driver, and to this day that car hasn't ran. It will be up and running by this summer, but it would've been tuned and driving a long time ago if the owner got a proper stand alone from a reputable company..
> 
> And I know all about the lambda targets


Ah I see. I have seen alot of crazy configs with megasquirt that people buy the wrong ecu and things like that. It really messes things up for sure.


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## xtremvw2 (Nov 27, 2010)

we run maestro7 in our drag car on leaded fuel no problem also we ran it on E85 with little tuning and ran
good, also running 2000cc idles like a stock car same block in the car for 2 season of 9s 160+mph

it does everything yes a bit slow but for 800$ i don't see a problem with a little slow but extremely reliable
even has a good 2 step now i build 12-14psi off the line with my 72mm t4

yes i would like to have a way to add sensors for datalogging but at this point im fine with it.

This year 8s are gonna happen on stock me7 ecu.

then ill probably look at standalone to get more inputs. to each there own but this Eurodyne can do it all


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

xtremvw2 said:


> we run maestro7 in our drag car on leaded fuel no problem also we ran it on E85 with little tuning and ran
> good, also running 2000cc idles like a stock car same block in the car for 2 season of 9s 160+mph
> 
> it does everything yes a bit slow but for 800$ i don't see a problem with a little slow but extremely reliable
> ...


I cant imagine why you guys arent running standalone  The reflash software does seem to be doing well in cars that are owner tuned. I have seen the evo and subarus get tuned and it eats up alot of dyno time. At $140 per hour I cant imagine you would be much money ahead by the time its tuned unless you go to a shop that tunes alot of one type of vehicle or you own the dyno. 

BTW. Axles and diff for O2a rabbit?


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## xtremvw2 (Nov 27, 2010)

should have answer tommorow sorry for delay.

i have good contact for dyno and to be honest im only on there for 1-2 hours that's it


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

Here we go. here's my story

Bought my car with #30 C2 never had a problem. Went to the track droped a valve. (most likely because i was a stupid kid reving to 7500) Year or so went by i acually built a decent setup.

I bought a Used Lugtronic ECU for $1000 and had Kevin make me a harness for $100 (I had a milspec A4 harness for trade in). He supplied a 630cc basemap. I picked it up from his house drove home installed it in less than 30 minutes. Got in the car 2 cranks and it started right up. Had a wideband in the car went out made a 15 psi pull 11.9 to 7500rpm. Drove like a dream never stalled, always started. Drove it for 4 months around the east coast to shows, meets. Never changed a single number in the Map or anything tuning wise. Went to a track rental that Fall and ran an [email protected] at 20-26 psi first pass ever down the track on slicks. 

Far as Trouble shooting goes. One day i walked out to my car and started it just like normal. Went to drive away wouldn't rev above 3 K. Drove home opened up the Computer and easily found i was getting Trigger errors. Poped a new crank sensor in and fixed it.

Last year i had Kevin do a Mil spec harness did a 10 pt cage and a few other things. Re tuned the car cause i got some 288's

In the fall i drove 170 miles to Englishtown NJ for the Fall show and go. I drove up on 93 and dumped some 116 in the car. Went out ran an 11.0 and a 10.91. Broke a tooth off 3rd gear. Lost to a Aircooled in the Semi's because i skipped 3rd. Then i drove 170 miles back home. All of this was on a stock motor too.

Not bashing chip tunes at all just stating my experiences with Lugtronic and Kevin Black.

Some of the best $$ ive ever spent.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

So your still on his base map? Thanks for sharing your story.:thumbup:


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

GinsterMan98 said:


> So your still on his base map? Thanks for sharing your story.:thumbup:


Nah 288's ruined that whole deal. Changed the fueling way around. I had DSR 256's then.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Does the lugtronic still make use of the knock sensor?

And do you pass emissions with it? 
lugtronic really sounds interesting, i'm currently running an Euro 42# C2 chip, but i'm thinking about going stand alone


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

pimS said:


> Does the lugtronic still make use of the knock sensor?
> 
> And do you pass emissions with it?
> lugtronic really sounds interesting, i'm currently running an Euro 42# C2 chip, but i'm thinking about going stand alone


I know you can set it up if you want to. I think in the end you will end up with the same problems the stock ecu has with knock sensativity. Its just another option you can use or not use if you should so desire.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

ok thanks

And what about the dash? will everything still function or will you drive around with a cristmas tree of Cell lights?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

pimS said:


> ok thanks
> 
> And what about the dash? will everything still function or will you drive around with a cristmas tree of Cell lights?


Thats a good question. I know that you need a digital signal for the tach and im not sure if lugtronic has a output for that. I know one way around this is to keep the stock ecu powered up and piggyback the standalone into the harness.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Yeah, I was reading a thread awhile back about someone doing this to also keep a functioning OBD2 port.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Yeah, I was reading a thread awhile back about someone doing this to also keep a functioning OBD2 port.


I have slowly been working on a standalone tach/dbw and OBD2 faker outer to be used with standalone.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i think i'll put a dash mounted pot on my next car that has IAT, but I'm on a farm


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I just wish I could download the interfaces from diffrent setups and play around with the program. Do you guys know if you can do that? I was going to get a used PNP lugtronic from Kevin with 630cc inj and the 4 bar map, but other things got in the way. I still have some cash saved for this but it will take some time. Kevin is a great guy and was real fast to answer all my questions on standalone. I like the fact you can run whatever coil you want, whatever tps/tb. I think it will open up alot of option for me in the future. I am very happy with my chip tune though, it has taken me very far. The main focus here is to upgrade to the 42 or 630cc chip setup and also buy a WOT box will put me about even with a good reconditioned Lugtronic. Thats not even getting into boost by gear which can also be done with the lugtronic ecu. 

I like this thread so far, lets keep it informative. :thumbup:


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

great thread


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm using megasquirt on my daily drive 2.0t and I have no complaints so far its very easy to setup and tune. Its also very consistent, the happiest day for me was on the coldest day here in new england I think it was -20 degrees or something and I went out and it fired on the first try...great feeling of accomplishment.

I also still have the stock ecu so I can still track knock with vag-com and adjust timing as needed 

I'm now starting to take care of my wifes b5 and although I have no problems with megasquirt I will rather get a chip for this project and for a few good reasons:

No cel
No need to tune
One less thing to go wrong
She dont need tons of power to take the kids to school 

For anyone looking to get the most out their project standalone is essential, want more power...just stick bigger injectors, change a few parameters and done no need to get a reflash and whatever hardware requirements comes with it


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

pimS said:


> ok thanks
> 
> And what about the dash? will everything still function or will you drive around with a cristmas tree of Cell lights?


Everything works, it keeps the check engine light off too, and even if it didn't you could just remove the bulb since it no longer serves a purpose, or you can wire it up as a shift light haha(I think one of the forum members did that a while back)


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Here is the cluster im going to use for mine.

http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1073


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

See other post for lugtronic software


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Wow, thanks man:thumbup: It looks very simple and user friendly. Really appreciate you taking the time to post those screen shots up.


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## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

We use VEMS Tune now.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

05JettaGLXVR6 said:


> We use VEMS Tune now.


I see that now. It looks like really good stuff.

http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=VemsTune


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I guess this is the new VEMStune










Loving the colum tune.










Target lambda


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)




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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

Strange title, but good thread and it is nice to see both sides with their opinions being laid out. 

Chipped ecu's are great for a lot of the cars out there, I never talk bad about them. 

There are advantages with stand-alone though, especially for cars that will be raced or want very high performance. The ability to monitor Data is very useful. And the stand-alone has limitless capabilities as far as additional functions important to racers.

The cost of all of the additional accessories like the WOT box, a quality Boost Controller, Wideband O2 Monitoring, etc, will add up quickly. Many people do not think of this until they are already invested in their set-ups.

When either method is done right, and the car is built right, the cars will run and drive like a stock car that you can hop in and go to the store anytime. The biggest consideration is the users long term goals.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

lugnuts said:


> The cost of all of the additional accessories like the WOT box, a quality Boost Controller, Wideband O2 Monitoring, etc, will add up quickly. Many people do not think of this until they are already invested in their set-ups.
> 
> When either method is done right, and the car is built right, the cars will run and drive like a stock car that you can hop in and go to the store anytime. The biggest consideration is the users long term goals.


You hit the nail on the head with these two statements.:thumbup: Not to mention cost of upgrading from what you have already, 30# to 42# or bigger. I am saving my pennies:laugh:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

lugnuts said:


> Strange title, but good thread and it is nice to see both sides with their opinions being laid out.
> 
> Chipped ecu's are great for a lot of the cars out there, I never talk bad about them.
> 
> ...


Standalones are also very nice if high milage is your goal. A lot of engines can run safely at light throttle cruise much leaner than 14.7 to 1. ABAs in particular seem to do just fine at 16.5 to1 or even a little leaner.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I have a higher end unit and I will be using mine to run haldex eventually. On a standalone as long as you still have outputs left you have possibilities for things you havent even though of yet.

Here is my baby.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

What we need to do is get some of the people installing these units to come here and talk to people about whats involved in installing these units. I guess lugnuts can come here and tell us about whats involved with the lugtronic. I have done lots of haltech installs and I guess I will do a writeup on that. What other ECUs? I know there are quite a few MS guys here.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

If you go to http://haltech.com/ then you can download the stoftware and some base maps and play around. If you guys have any questions I will help you out.

I am probably going to be building a harness for one of the members here so I will go through whats involved in the install.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

KubotaPowered said:


> This is the reason I run chip tunes. No CEL's, readiness set, passes emissions every time. I've had good luck with C2 tunes, 30#, 42# and 60# ProMAF tunes.



I've had a very good experience with chip tunes. IMO they are definitely the way to go for the majority other than serious drag racers looking for 500whp plus. 

This thread is really pointless though. Both methods are what they are. 

1) You wanna pop in a chip in 10 min. and make 300-~500whp, pass emissions, and run high 10's(hasn't been done but easily doable), 11's, 12's in the 1/4. Chip tune is a no brainer.

2) Like to tune your own car, wanna spend more $$ for the adjustability, need more revs, want alot of power. Go standalone.

It's two different target markets. Most people buy their home computer plug and play and some people build their own.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> I've had a very good experience with chip tunes. IMO they are definitely the way to go for the majority other than serious drag racers looking for 500whp plus.
> 
> This thread is really pointless though. Both methods are what they are.
> 
> ...


This thread is not about chip tunes. Go start your own thread.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> This thread is not about chip tunes. Go start your own thread.


Can't tell by reading the first page. PNP I assume you mean a form of standalone. You should have mede that clearer. It's obvious most thought you meant chips.

Carry on:wave:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Can't tell by reading the first page. PNP I assume you mean a form of standalone. You should have mede that clearer. It's obvious most thought you meant chips.
> 
> Carry on:wave:


If you dont have anything to contribute then you should find another thread.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I thought this was a chip tune vs standalone thread.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I thought it was chip tune vs standalone too.

What options are the standalone/pnp guys doing for odb2 spoofing for cars with inspections?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I thought it was a great thread with a lot of really useful info already. How about we keep this back and fourth to PM's before this thread gets destroyed. There are some of us out there that need this information. The title name is what it is, but this thread has been civil and full of good info.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> Most people buy their home computer plug and play and some people build their own.


 Very true, that being said this thread is not pointless. I think this thread is full of great info and will continue to be good as long this little fight you and the OP are having does not destroy it.


I think your both great dudes, but this ish has to stop.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

My 2cents
I have played with 3 types of management on vrts. Sds,c2 42lbs obd2 file and now lugtronics

The c2 is on a customers mk3vrt obd2 car. The car runs awesome with it and i am impressed( coming from a time BEFORE good FI vr software) and this is perfect for this customer who has bought his car not built it. The sds was on my vrt and was first installed about 6 years ago. Sds is outdated crap imo and i would put a promaf file on my car before sds if i didn't have my lugtronic. As far as lugtronic goes..... Kev made me harness for my car using oe connectors which made it VERY easy to install and included a file based on my injector size that enabled the car to start and run. 
Lugtronic has so many options that a serious HP fanatic needs that other than user stupidity theres no way i'd recommend anything else
When you compare all the options of a standalone to all the pricing of all the add on boxes its pretty close. Ill let ___________ get the exact prices but to get SOME of the options the lugtronic has i would need
Promaf 630cc file
Promaf
Wotbox
Avcr boost controller (for boost by gear)
Keep in mind all the cutting/splicing to get the wotbox and boost controller in against the time spent installing a supernice lugtronic harness and its alot closer than a simple 10 min maf and chip install
Oh ya i forgot. I can datalog and then make changes as necessary


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Dave926 said:


> I thought this was a chip tune vs standalone thread.


x2

You guys need to cut it out before this thread gets locked. It was starting to get interesting. It amazes me sometime that we can't get pass the 2nd page without the thread being on the verge of getting locked. One thing i've learned is if you ignore the person, there's no argument.

Go on Club GTI and search for the thread like this. 30 pages of great info. Not one argument. :facepalm:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Thanks for the tip:thumbup: Also downloaded the software and looked around, seems pretty easy to setup. Thanks for posting the link.:thumbup:


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

I'm obviously limited in what I can say, I'm here to provide technical information only.

Regarding the emission testing, this is one of the PnP stand-alone ecu's biggest advantages.

Simply install your stock ECU/MAF/Injectors on a Saturday, and go test the car. 
Once a year, sounds easy enough.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Stay out of boost though lol.:laugh:


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

see a person like me doesnt have the skills to tune a car and I dont have time to learn, I want a turn key ride worry free just step on the petal Year round and be able to use vagcom and OBD port to scan my car, but if i had to go with 400 HP+ i would def go with lugtronics. Someone i know took me for a ride in his car with standalone and i was very impressed witht he ride quality and how the car ran


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

dubbinmk2 said:


> see a person like me doesnt have the skills to tune a car and I dont have time to learn, I want a turn key ride worry free just step on the petal Year round and be able to use vagcom and OBD port to scan my car, but if i had to go with 400 HP+ i would def go with lugtronics. Someone i know took me for a ride in his car with standalone and i was very impressed witht he ride quality and how the car ran


Anyone who would bolt on a turbo kit and put in the chip and bring it out on the freeway is nuts dont you think? The car should be run on a dyno first.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

That's not a luxury everyone has. I have no idea where the nearest dyno to ME is, but I know it's far enough that the car would have to get itself there.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Anyone who would bolt on a turbo kit and put in the chip and bring it out on the freeway is nuts dont you think? The car should be run on a dyno first.


how is running it on the dyno any different?

i'd never do either without a wideband. But once you get in to an OBD2 tune, they are worry free. If you look at the crazy numbers of vr turbo kits that kinetic has sold, its pretty clear that chip tunes can work, make great power, and be the perfect solution for a vast number of people.

i've seen lots of cars blow up on the dyno, and all of them were on stand-alone. **** happens.

:beer:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

TBT-Syncro said:


> how is running it on the dyno any different?
> 
> i'd never do either without a wideband. But once you get in to an OBD2 tune, they are worry free. If you look at the crazy numbers of vr turbo kits that kinetic has sold, its pretty clear that chip tunes can work, make great power, and be the perfect solution for a vast number of people.
> 
> ...


Like slc stated its 2 different ways to skin a cat. Ive experienced the obd2 42# tune before, and while it wasnt bad it ran a bit leaner than I like. The car in question had no codes and the data stream from the sensors was inline to where it should have been.

The shop that even dyno'd the car said canned tunes are never perfect. This coming from someone who maintains a mid 8 second street car, 11 second street truck and a non intercooled small block turbo that runs 10's. No offense to anyone who endorses a chip tune, but when I get a response from someone like him with his credentials I am more inclined to regard his opinion higher than internet forum post.

Its a setup that will work but it has its flaws. It wont be perfect to maximize power, but might be perfect for the said owner of the chip.

Personally I prefer speed density. Ive never seen MAP sensors fail, MAF sensors just suck in that category. Im sure most if not all the FI users here have had a boost tube blow off, and with a MAF car it can be quite inconvienent. Speed density car? Keep on driving like nothing ever happened.


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## EugeneDubbin (Aug 31, 2008)

*Lugtronic FTW*

Kevin (Lugnuts) has my lugtronic ECU right now and is making changes. It shouldn't be too much longer before he sends it out to me and I can put it in. For the sake of this thread, I will do a full writeup on install and everything else I can add about the user experience. Pix will be available.

It will be run on a built 1.9 liter 06a motor with unported AEB head with supertech (exhaust 1mm OS) valves/cat gold springs/rosten Ti retainers with stock manifolds and K03for breaking in the motor for about a month to two months before retuning and the install of the big big turbo while car is caged and exhaust manifold is built.


Ethan


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> how is running it on the dyno any different?
> 
> i'd never do either without a wideband. But once you get in to an OBD2 tune, they are worry free. If you look at the crazy numbers of vr turbo kits that kinetic has sold, its pretty clear that chip tunes can work, make great power, and be the perfect solution for a vast number of people.
> 
> ...


Where are these crazy numbers you speak of? Most of the people I see are screaming in terror when they realize they have been pounding the crap out of their car and find out they are running 14:1 AF under boost.

I have seen hundreds of cars on the dyno and have only seen two or three blow up on the dyno. Its always the top speed run on the way home after they were warned that they had a problem with their system when they blow up.

Again it isnt just about the numbers (if it was standalone wins hands down). The ability to do other things like launch control,other fuels when needed (or available),compatability with other equipment (aftermarket dashes,haldex control,meth injection control,boost by gear,boost by throttle,boost by rpm).


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

TIGninja said:


> Where are these crazy numbers you speak of? Most of the people I see are screaming in terror when they realize they have been pounding the crap out of their car and find out they are running 14:1 AF under boost.
> 
> I have seen hundreds of cars on the dyno and have only seen two or three blow up on the dyno. Its always the top speed run on the way home after they were warned that they had a problem with their system when they blow up.
> 
> Again it isnt just about the numbers (if it was standalone wins hands down). The ability to do other things like launch control,other fuels when needed (or available),compatability with other equipment (aftermarket dashes,haldex control,meth injection control,boost by gear,boost by throttle,boost by rpm).


I'll agree with this....
and add this....Chips and there newer cousin...one flash fits all work best for the folks that want to order a "turbo kit in a box".............exact same thing as home theater in a box....all the stuff is in there....and it works

Is it as good as a hi end AV reciever and hand picked components....No......But for alot of people its just as good...In their eyes...or ears......

Alot of problems arise..when......turbo in a box guy wants more.....or wants to be different....Different cam......or throttle body....turbo...hell a million things....then the software says....WTF.....

So to me the tune in a box is a realy good base tune....which is good for joe avarage..i added a turbo to my NA car kind of guy..or gal..
but there is a growing number of people that dont want just a base tune....so for them..its stand alone....then Kevins go stock for a day..which is easy with Lugtronis PnP... or any stand alone wired with a stock plug..or a not yet developed 0bd2 readines simulator
I vote stand alone:beer:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> That's not a luxury everyone has. I have no idea where the nearest dyno to ME is, but I know it's far enough that the car would have to get itself there.


I can tell you from years of experience, dyno's are nothing more than a luxury, not a necessity when it comes to tuning, in fact most of the high HP cars get tuned on the track/street and not the dyno. And there's definitely standalones out there that can get to a dyno out of the box.


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

Great tread. Just thought I would add my 2.0t cents. I have an ABAT and when I started I had little money and no experience in tuning except carbs on air cooleds. I added a turbo and ran on stock chip for 1+ years. it made good power and the mix was o.k. not great. I bought a megasquirt, as I have followed it for a few years, and a couple of books on tuning. Now that I have the car running I LOVE MS!!! I have the ms1 V3.0. The interface is nice and easy to understand and you can modify what ever you want. I will agree that if you got this route it is best to assemble your own. doing this will get you familiar with what goes on inside and will allow you to set it up as you want for the parts you want. I created a base map using maps people have posted for their ms and other systems as the auto map generator failed miserably. the car starts every time and with my lc-1 i watch the mix and slowly tuned it to where it sits now. I have no idea what she puts down as the clutch does not hold the power in 4th and first is a hand full. I was going to use a chip tune at first and just decided that if someone else can tune an ecu then why couldn't I. stand alone systems are not that difficult if you are willing to spend the time reading and trying. start with too much fuel... you can always reduce it and save the motor.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

I think everyone can agree that obd2 chips are pretty good. I had the same lean issues with my customers car. So much so i put a 4 bar in and now its good under boost and idle/cruising is not rich. This car has cams btw
Another cost for some people to run this tried/tested/true chip is converting their obd1 cars to obd2
But like previously mentioned the emisions end of this option is a plus
I get a fake etest for my 4 inch catless exhaust i have on my car!!!!


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> I think everyone can agree that obd2 chips are pretty good. I had the same lean issues with my customers car. So much so i put a 4 bar in and now its good under boost and idle/cruising is not rich. This car has cams btw
> Another cost for some people to run this tried/tested/true chip is converting their obd1 cars to obd2
> But like previously mentioned the emisions end of this option is a plus
> I get a fake etest for my 4 inch catless exhaust i have on my car!!!!



Im seeing this leaning issue on a lot of C2 cars. It has to do with the switching from low to high throttle in the chip file. It has to do with the way C2 set up their chip files.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

.therealvrt said:


> I think everyone can agree that obd2 chips are pretty good. I had the same lean issues with my customers car. So much so i put a 4 bar in and now its good under boost and idle/cruising is not rich. This car has cams btw
> Another cost for some people to run this tried/tested/true chip is converting their obd1 cars to obd2
> But like previously mentioned the emisions end of this option is a plus
> I get a fake etest for my 4 inch catless exhaust i have on my car!!!!


Why not tune it to pass?


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

In the United States b4s a lot of cars get their emissions part of the inspection from plugging the car in, or at least on obd2 cars. With standalone, currently, you cannot do that.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm from the netherlands, over here they measure O2, CO2 and CO at idle and 3000 rpm in neutral.
I passed the test with my #42 chip and my original CAT, but it only made it after letting the engine warm up for 20/30 min or so.

So for emissions i'd probably only have to make a map were it'd be running lean @ around 3000 rpm and idle.

I've been giving switching to standalone a lot of thought since this thread went up, but if i'm not pleased with my WB readings (once i finally get it plugged in) there's a big chance i'm stepping to lugtronics.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Dave926 said:


> In the United States b4s a lot of cars get their emissions part of the inspection from plugging the car in, or at least on obd2 cars. With standalone, currently, you cannot do that.


I live in the same area as _therealvrt, we're just a sniffer test so far. I think we'll eventually get the scanner test though .


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

B4S said:


> I live in the same area as _therealvrt, we're just a sniffer test so far. I think we'll eventually get the scanner test though .


we do a full dyno test out here. It does various load states, and speeds. although for 2002+ (iirc) its just an obd readiness scan. 

its generally not hard to pass our tests unless you have large overlap in your cams (like i do). But if you are a non scan car, you can run stand-alone, and still pass problem-free.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

sp_golf said:


> ...but it would've been tuned and driving a long time ago if the owner got a proper stand alone from a reputable company..


Or a proper Megasquirt from a reputable company.  It's made to be DIY but there are folks out there that can get it setup *right* from the get go with everything needed. Just saying.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

How would standalone pass an ob2 emissions test? Readiness monitors have to be set, ecu must communicate with state equipment, on newer cars the vin of the car must be readable through the state emissions machine. I don't see how standalone could ever pass an obd2 emissions test.

Alot of good info on here, but again it's apples to oranges. The type of person that wants crazy power, full adjustability, etc. are more likely to post in an FI forum. There's a big market of guys that are thrilled to double or triple the whp of their car by popping in a chip and having it run very close to OE and most of them don't live on here.

Depends on the specifics. Time, power and ET goals, $$, etc. One option isn't going to be "best" for everyone.

The fact that you can make 800whp, have a 2step, etc. built in means nothing to the guy that wants 300-400whp and fun on the street. He can have that in 10min and $300-$400. It's only better for people that want and need the capability:beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo,
You have a good point, I understand what you are saying about the price vs power making capability. I cannot complain about 11.6's on a 30# chip tune. I just want the challenge of tuning my own ride and seeing what I can get out of it. You are very correct in saying that most will be happy with a chip tune and I am by no means saying chips are inferior to SEM. SEM does offer the user some added features for the money that I think make the most out whatever setup you want to run. Great thread IMO.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> How would standalone pass an ob2 emissions test? Readiness monitors have to be set, ecu must communicate with state equipment, on newer cars the vin of the car must be readable through the state emissions machine. I don't see how standalone could ever pass an obd2 emissions test.
> 
> Alot of good info on here, but again it's apples to oranges. The type of person that wants crazy power, full adjustability, etc. are more likely to post in an FI forum. There's a big market of guys that are thrilled to double or triple the whp of their car by popping in a chip and having it run very close to OE and most of them don't live on here.
> 
> ...


Its really pretty simple. You unplug the standalone and plug in your stock ECU and MAF. Then you install your stock injectors and go get tested. You only have to do this once a year and its probably an hour of work.

The fact is you can probably make 300-400 whp with a PNP lugtronics ECU. The difference is you can make 800whp and have all the features of a real standalone for very little extra money.You cannot just pop in a 800whp chip and go make 800whp. 

Ironically you would be a very good candidate to upgrade to standalone because you have maxed out the capability of your chip tune.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

You know you want to go 10's, lol.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> You know you want to go 10's, lol.


No he doesnt. He only wants to go as fast as the chip gods will allow him to go  J/K dont get all bent out of shape and mess up this thread. 

On a side note the new MS3 looks dammm good with the new tuner studio software. This stuff is really coming around. If I didnt have haltech already I would have either this or lugtronic.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Not true. My wideband hasnt gone lean yet so fueling is not maxed. Turbo, intercooler, and no roll bar are my limiting factors. Also i have a 60# chip. Add built motor/ trans to be able to run that reliably. So you see it's not chip fueling thats limiting. It's 5-6 other things. With supporting mods 10's are easy in a vr on a 60# chip. 42 lb cars run low 11's without being lightened all that much.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Not true. My wideband hasnt gone lean yet so fueling is not maxed. Turbo, intercooler, and no roll bar are my limiting factors. Also i have a 60# chip. Add built motor/ trans to be able to run that reliably. So you see it's not chip fueling thats limiting. It's 5-6 other things. With supporting mods 10's are easy in a vr on a 60# chip. 42 lb cars run low 11's without being lightened all that much.


Running it is one thing. Running it safely is another. And the 60lb chip with all these supporting mods costs as much as a good standalone. And to get one you need to sell your old parts and buy a whole new setup. In the end you will have spent just as much if not more then you would have spent with a standalone in the first place. You spent more for less capability and features. Buy once.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

The fact that you have full control of your engine management would give me a lot of comfort.

Running @ pnp chip, it's always the car that's the problem if something is wrong, never the chip:sly:
But you read enough stories that tell otherwise.

Keep pumping this thread full of info guys, i think i'm going start setting aside some money for an lugT. Although i'm not going for max-power i really like the idea of tuning the car by myself


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## snobum (Dec 16, 2005)

just contact john reed and go motec


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Yeah, I got real tierd of people telling me it was my car not the chip. I still have a light load stumble, only at slow speeds and light throttle. It got better with the flow straightener that was suggested to me buy another member on here. WOT fuling is always spot on. For me its the stupid issues that make me hate the chip setup I run. I think most issues are from tumbling air across the MAF, it is the only thing that makes sense. In theroy, the pro MAF setup should be a huge improvement over the stock MAF, sending the average of a number of readings. Maybe someone who is running that setup will share there views.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Its really pretty simple. You unplug the standalone and plug in your stock ECU and MAF. Then you install your stock injectors and go get tested. You only have to do this once a year and its probably an hour of work.
> 
> The fact is you can probably make 300-400 whp with a PNP lugtronics ECU. The difference is you can make 800whp and have all the features of a real standalone for very little extra money.You cannot just pop in a 800whp chip and go make 800whp.
> 
> Ironically you would be a very good candidate to upgrade to standalone because you have maxed out the capability of your chip tune.


You make it sound so simple.. but sometimes its not especially if you cut your stock harness out or used the stock couplers 
... than it takes a little more time... especially when you don't use stock 02 sensors.... 

If properly done, you can equipt your system to change over for emissions testing.... but its good to start with that intention.

The reason why I run SEM is because at the time no body made a chip worth using, EIP, ATP, TT, GIAC = crap crap crap these cars where barely over 200whp (normally)... only the SDS people were making closer to 300hp at that time on an ABA. 
I used chipped software for a while and I had to change it it was so terrible...

I got one of the first couple 034 IC units being used on an ABA and starting from a completely blank MAP, I got the car running and driving within an hour of having absolutely ZERO tuning experience. If I were to make the decision years later I would of went with C2, but since they didnt' exist yet I had no choice but to go SEM...looking back on it now Im glad I went SEM :wave:


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

I hear the same things from people about their cars not running right all of the time. 
Probably 75% of the time, the MAF is causing the problems, either by not following install instructions, or MAF failures.
I also hear people having to replace sensor after sensor trying to chase problems.
I monitor 50+ cars per year and I have seen almost no sensors fail in the last 11 years.

A great thing about standalone ecu's is the datalogging (vag-com/stock ecu sample rate is almost useless) and the on-board wideband o2 sensors. 
Yes, you have to tune for the individual car compared to a MAF set-up But once it is tuned, you will not have problems with it. 
And it does not need to be constantly re-tuned for weather , despite what some people might think. 

No matter what type of modifications people use, you will see and hear about examples done correctly, and the cars that are not done correctly.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

lugnuts said:


> I hear the same things from people about their cars not running right all of the time.
> Probably 75% of the time, the MAF is causing the problems, either by not following install instructions, or MAF failures.
> I also hear people having to replace sensor after sensor trying to chase problems.
> I monitor 50+ cars per year and I have seen almost no sensors fail in the last 11 years.
> ...


I second that..... you do have to tune for weather & elevation changes in my experience.... but its not a big deal to fine tune the system... it just takes time and patients.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

GTijoejoe said:


> I second that..... you do have to tune for weather & elevation changes in my experience.... but its not a big deal to fine tune the system... it just takes time and patients.


3rd....but alot of people here don't have the time or patients to fiddle with the SA.

I'm a fan of both options but IMO, i feel a stand alone being a bit waste for a daily driven car unless you have some exotic setup that requires it. It gets to a point when you reach a certain hp, it becomes useless for the street. Sure the features allow it to be an all around setup that is proven to be reliable but when building a project, i think dollars in terms of HP. Is it cost effective to run XXX Standalone vs. a Chip based setup. It's like having a pair of Brembo 6 pt. brake setup on a car thats used to go to work. Do they work..hell yea...are they necessary...probably not. No one but the engine techies put any thought into building a proper & reliable turbo/SC engine. Just bolt it up and turn the boost up. No engine cooling tech...No Intercooler efficiency..Nothing break though...nothing outside the box. Vortex is becoming very sparse in valuable info these days 
The problem with this thread is that there aren't many opening their minds. Just because you're using C2 software or Lugtronic, doesn't mean one or the other is bad. It's all about preference.

What i'd like to see discuss is how to make what we have more efficient weather it be SA or Chip tuning. How can you optimize a certain setup. What in store for the future for us?

Posting "I like XX because i'm using it" is not making this thread productive.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

pimS said:


> The fact that you have full control of your engine management would give me a lot of comfort.
> 
> Running @ pnp chip, it's always the car that's the problem if something is wrong, never the chip:sly:
> But you read enough stories that tell otherwise.
> ...


It is the car 99% of the time at least on the tunes that are proven. The software doesn't change. Some of the cars are almost 20 years old and owned by kids so yeah alot of times it is the car.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> 3rd....but alot of people here don't have the time or patients to fiddle with the SA.
> 
> .


Exactly. Talk to enough people and you'll get the whole story on both setups. All the pluses and minuses come out when people aren't trying to prove a point/make a friend w/ someone selling a product.

IM everyone. That's how you get the truth.

Just an fyi. I speak about C2 tunes because that's what I know so I give my experience. You'll never see me say standalone is a waste, stupid, wrong, etc. It's not for everyone, but certianly has it's place and is almost a necessity for some.

Like anything, people have different needs, wants, etc. which is why there are so many choices with everything we buy.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> 3rd....but alot of people here don't have the time or patients to fiddle with the SA.
> 
> I'm a fan of both options but IMO, i feel a stand alone being a bit waste for a daily driven car unless you have some exotic setup that requires it. It gets to a point when you reach a certain hp, it becomes useless for the street. Sure the features allow it to be an all around setup that is proven to be reliable but when building a project, i think dollars in terms of HP. Is it cost effective to run XXX Standalone vs. a Chip based setup. It's like having a pair of Brembo 6 pt. brake setup on a car thats used to go to work. Do they work..hell yea...are they necessary...probably not. No one but the engine techies put any thought into building a proper & reliable turbo/SC engine. Just bolt it up and turn the boost up. No engine cooling tech...No Intercooler efficiency..Nothing break though...nothing outside the box. Vortex is becoming very sparse in valuable info these days
> The problem with this thread is that there aren't many opening their minds. Just because you're using C2 software or Lugtronic, doesn't mean one or the other is bad. It's all about preference.
> ...



I agree with most of what you say, but not everyone is trying to do something "break through".

Some people have more of an emotional involvement into their builds. For example, standalone on a car that never sees the track, the best and most expensive of everything etc. They've spent hrs getting the shortest possible IC piping path. All pipes are TIG welded, wires hidden, it goes on and on and on. 

Then you have guys like me. It's not about impressing anyone or what components I'm using. It's more like how a business buys equipment. You have a need (certain amt. of power or ET). Take the most economical route to address that need reliably. Less emotion. More of how much does it cost and what does it do for me. 


Take the emotion out of it and you aren't buying standalone, chips, widebands, turbos, intercoolers, etc. You are simply buying horsepower/torque. Buy as much as you need, or for some, want.:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> I agree with most of what you say, but not everyone is trying to do something "break through".
> 
> Some people have more of an emotional involvement into their builds. For example, standalone on a car that never sees the track, the best and most expensive of everything etc. They've spent hrs getting the shortest possible IC piping path. All pipes are TIG welded, wires hidden, it goes on and on and on.
> 
> ...


Again it isnt cheaper if you have to rebuy something. The classifieds are full of fueling packages that didnt work out for the customer because they either didnt work on the car like they were supposed to or they are trying to upgrade (because the chip isnt flexible enough to do what they want).

Why would you blame the car when its the chip that doesnt have the flexability to work in that situation. Sure the chip only costs 2/3rd what the standalone does but thats only if it works.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

I ran standalone (DTA) for four years. I learned it inside and out and could write maps on the fly. It worked, I had full control and made good power. For a street car, just build it right and run a chip tune. I'll never go without knock control on a street-driven 91-octane car again. Obviously if you're going for huge power a self tuning (what I would have given for that **** back in the day) standalone system is the way to go. I'm building a new mk3 vrt using what I've learned since I first put a turbo on a vr in 2002. It will make 400hp on the stock ecu and I will have fun driving it on the street.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

cabzilla said:


> I ran standalone (DTA) for four years. I learned it inside and out and could write maps on the fly. It worked, I had full control and made good power. For a street car, just build it right and run a chip tune. I'll never go without knock control on a street-driven 91-octane car again. Obviously if you're going for huge power a self tuning (what I would have given for that **** back in the day) standalone system is the way to go. I'm building a new mk3 vrt using what I've learned since I first put a turbo on a vr in 2002. It will make 400hp on the stock ecu and I will have fun driving it on the street.


Good info from someone that has had both:beer:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> No he doesnt. He only wants to go as fast as the chip gods will allow him to go  J/K dont get all bent out of shape and mess up this thread.
> 
> On a side note the new MS3 looks dammm good with the new tuner studio software. This stuff is really coming around. If I didnt have haltech already I would have either this or lugtronic.


MS3 is VERY nice as is Tuner Studio. Extremely flexible, onboard SDcard datalogging, TONS of I/O and if it's still not enough JBperf.com has a CAN bussed I/O extender that will let you have a ton more including up to 8 Widebands and EGTs


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

i have run both chip tune and standalone for a few years now obd1 vr the chip at first would not run right dumping lots of fuel at idle lots more users had the same problem at the time. so i went megasquirt for a 2 years and loved it . i am now back running c2 obd1 tune with fuel map ironed out and timing tweaked live mapped in boost so afrs are exactly as i want them :thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I think alot of people should look at some of the new standalones a second time. In the last few years there has been a massive influx of technology into some of these units. They have become very easy to use and some even self tune. Some of these are to the point where if you can get it to start and run on all cylinders the ECU does the rest (yes this actually works).

Safety and chip tunes with large injectors should not be used in the same sentence. The failure rate of VW MAFs is alarming. What happens when these start to go bad? The start to change the fuel mixture to either rich or lean. Very large injectors compounds this and this is likely the reason alot of people cannot get their chip tunes running right.

MAF problems + large injectors = engine damage

The idea that the chip tunes have the ability to adapt to a situation better is complete BS. There is no way that most stock ECUs (MK4s can to a certain point) actually keep your engine safe like a standalone running target lambda.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

TIGninja said:


> Safety and chip tunes with large injectors should not be used in the same sentence. The failure rate of VW MAFs is alarming. What happens when these start to go bad? The start to change the fuel mixture to either rich or lean. Very large injectors compounds this and this is likely the reason alot of people cannot get their chip tunes running right.
> 
> MAF problems + large injectors = engine damage


Meh. I had a MAF from 2002-2004 and from 2008 until now. I replaced it out of fear right when the turbo went on and not since then. *anything* can blow a motor. I'm not pro-chip or anti-standalone by any means, but we need to keep this thread from looking like an SEM system will keep anything from getting hurt. Big power breaks things no matter what.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Just an fyi. Tigninja you're on my ignore list so I won't be "starting anything" due to your comments. I only see them if someone quotes them which is unfortunate.

To clarify. I stopped at the ~11.5 mark because I don't want a roll bar in my Corrado. Spending $$ on a built motor, trans, and new turbo were also factors. The chip fueling had nothing to do with the decision. As stated previously I have a brand new 60# chip sitting on my desk. Not at "chip" limit by any means

I've seen more standalone cars blow up than chip tune cars. Makes sense to me.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ignorance is bliss.LOL

Anyways. Why are the chip tuning guys taking out OBD1 to put in OBD2? The OBD1 is very easy for the end user to tune. Right now there are config files that you can download for free and bring to any honda tuner(they have the proper hardware) and have them give you a custom tune.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Like Chrome or uberdata? via chip burning?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Yes. Go here and download it.

http://tunerpro.net/


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

There's 1 tuner here in the netherlands thats gets the same power out of an obd1 or ob2 vr6.
They don't give you a hard time that they can't tune an obd1 car, you drop it of and 2 hours later your driving around with 400hp.

Always made me wonder why the pnp chip tuners can't get you a high power obd1 chip


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

pimS said:


> There's 1 tuner here in the netherlands thats gets the same power out of an obd1 or ob2 vr6.
> They don't give you a hard time that they can't tune an obd1 car, you drop it of and 2 hours later your driving around with 400hp.
> 
> Always made me wonder why the pnp chip tuners can't get you a high power obd1 chip


The only reason the tuners here dont want to tune OBD1 is because any clown with a chip burner can copy the chip file onto another chip.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> I've seen more standalone cars blow up than chip tune cars.


I've seen more fast standalone cars then fast chip tune cars. Push the limits, **** happens.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

With standalone, people who should not change spark plugs sometimes enter random values into timing maps. 

It's like being handed a margarita mix machine complete with yard cups and car keys at the same time and being told to do whatever you want. Some responsibility is required.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Well i'm a fan of both and i think each has it's own place. 

I'm one of the people that converted to OBD2 from OBD1 simply because there are more options out there for it.

Tig mentioned something about having it reprogrammed somwhere. There is no place anywhere near me that does that. You guys have to keep in mind that not everyone has the money you have. Not everyone has the expertise you might have. Not everyone has the connections you might have. (talking in general i might add). So when you guys say how easy it might be, it might be that way for someone else. There's no way in hell can there be an intelligent debate over this subject unless it can relate to everyone across the board. You wouldn't push a stand alone on a customer that walks through your door simply because you think it's better regardless of his budget.


All these post and this thread has gotten no where. I've gotten more insight on this subject from 4 emails from the engineer at HP Racing (They build & tune engines for various factory race teams cars including VWMS, Audi Sport, Seat Motorsport to name a few...)


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Well i'm a fan of both and i think each has it's own place.
> 
> I'm one of the people that converted to OBD2 from OBD1 simply because there are more options out there for it.
> 
> ...


You can have an intelligent debate about this....why not????
it depend on many things...the first and largest thing is comitment of the person.that willingly goes and ads a turbo or supercharger to a car that was never ever intended to have said forced induction applied to it....
Right there you have left the comfort zone of millions of dollars of factory testing and tuning for drivability and reliability....simple as that...How far from the comfort zone your willing to go depends on many things...like the skill and knowlage of what has been done to the car....how it will act...what are warning signs that there is a problem, how serious it is...and so on
the


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

............gggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr man this new vortex is getting on my nerves with the auto scrolling when typing long posts......
Anyway..there is no blanket solution for every person that walks in the door..every customer has different wants and needs. Most want to able to have more power and run reliably.
60% of the people that turbo there cars..should have never ever touched there car at all let alone a tool of any kind.
Both chip/Flash tunes and Stand alone are needed to satisfy everyone...and still there will be those that are not satisfied ever.
Thats just me
and for having to retune standalone for weather.....your kidding right folks? unles your using old SDS or the most hated Holley Commander 950.....there is no need for this..that what the other map sensor and iat sensors are for.....


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I see stupid people drop off their cars every day for tuning. This is not an excuse. Its not even a problem. They all get tuned and some come back because they destroyed something (stupid people have the ability to find ways of breaking things that we cant even think of(boy do I have some sweet examples :laugh: )).

The idea that standalone cars have some sort of driveability issue is total BS. Generally a good tuner can have a perfect tune in 2-4 hours on the dyno. The guy that does our tuning here is very good and alot of times the car runs better on the standalone then the car did stock. I think alot of this BS has to do with ideas that people have from early on in the standalone days (butchered GM ECUs and SDS :facepalm: ).

This may look intimidating but its very simple once you actually start hooking it up. If you can solder and count your good to go.

http://www.haltech.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/sprint_500_wiring.pdf


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I've seen more fast standalone cars then fast chip tune cars. Push the limits, **** happens.


Probably because your race cars are going to run standalone so yeah the fastest cars will likely be standalone. I don't think most chip users are looking to break ET or dyno records though so they're probably good with that.

Don't know what you're doing with a chip car= tough to blow up. The tune is what it is and the car has factory knock control.

Don't know what your doing with standalone= easier to blow up. 

Just my opinion and provided of course that the tuner isn't an expert. If he is then that's a cost either in time or $$. 

Can't have it both ways. Spend more $$ and time to go faster or spend less $$ and time and go a bit slower.:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Salsa GTI said:


> ............gggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr man this new vortex is getting on my nerves with the auto scrolling when typing long posts......
> Anyway..there is no blanket solution for every person that walks in the door..every customer has different wants and needs. Most want to able to have more power and run reliably.
> 60% of the people that turbo there cars..should have never ever touched there car at all let alone a tool of any kind.
> Both chip/Flash tunes and Stand alone are needed to satisfy everyone...and still there will be those that are not satisfied ever.
> ...


Exactly. The points of 8-9 sec. capable and 600+ whp are moot for 95% of customers. It isn't their goal. If it's yours then fine, but you can't use that argument for most. 

We are talking about fwd's with 205-225 mm wide front tires and weak transmissions. Some people adjust their power goals accordingly.

Ignore list FTW:laugh::wave:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Exactly. The points of 8-9 sec. capable and 600+ whp are moot for 95% of customers. It isn't their goal. If it's yours then fine, but you can't use that argument for most.
> 
> We are talking about fwd's with 205-225 mm wide front tires and weak transmissions. Some people adjust their power goals accordingly.



At ~ the 400whp mark the standalone starts to pull ahead in reliability on a VR6. This guy doesnt have a very good understanding of engine management and really needs to quit telling everyone to do exactly what he has done because the facts are it only works decent on half of the cars that try to run it and the other half end up on standalone in the end anyways.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

For all the people who are preaching to everyone about how much power we dont need well your flat out wrong. You are the victims of the same misinformation you are preaching to everyone. Your trying to make a case for your chip tunes when in fact you are making a very good case for standalone. Its the lack of understanding thats the problem here.

Boost control (controls the amount of power). This is one of the reasons I chose standalone over retuning my stock ECU. Most standalones can set up power to be applied in many different ways. I use boost by gear which adjusts boost levels to whatever point I set it for in each gear or by speed. I will be setting up boost by throttle in the very near future as well so I can back out of the boost to control wheel spin without dumping boost all together.

The facts are you can run more power and boost with a standalone on the street because you can control it.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

can we trust the factory knock control or is any knock at over 400whp level too late ?
i guess in n/a form the engine can survive a few counts before it retards timing.
also something else that is on my mind is all turbo cars ive seen seem to have open elements iat sensors 
stock vr6 have closed element with a turbo fitted the intake air temps change rapidly in boost and the stock closed element sensor is too slow to react to the changes in heat


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> can we trust the factory knock control or is any knock at over 400whp level too late ?
> i guess in n/a form the engine can survive a few counts before it retards timing.
> also something else that is on my mind is all turbo cars ive seen seem to have open elements iat sensors
> stock vr6 have closed element with a turbo fitted the intake air temps change rapidly in boost and the stock closed element sensor is too slow to react to the changes in heat


IDK. One thing you can do is look at the cars that are running. Theory is fine, but what's actually been proven reliable. 

I think at this point it's pretty safe to say that a 42# chip ~400-420whp cars are dead reliable. There are hundreds on this forum. I ran with 3 all weekend at Pinks. All of us running 11's, new bests, and nobody had one issue.

Nobody has really pushed the 60# tune afaik and not many are running it so not sure how it holds up when "pushed".


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Everybody needs to forget the standalone Were all doing it wrong :laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

What IAT sensor does lugtronic use and where is it located? I thought it used the stock sensor in stock location. That's what I was told when I was looking into it at one point. Lose the MAF, install the MAP and ecu and you're done. Sounds like stock iat and location to me


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> What IAT sensor does lugtronic use and where is it located? I thought it used the stock sensor in stock location.


A standalone can be configured to run on any IAT sensor. The stock stuff can be as well but only if you can match the IAT transfer function to the IAT you want to use. Again SLC fails.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Salsa GTI said:


> You can have an intelligent debate about this....why not????
> it depend on many things...the first and largest thing is comitment of the person.that willingly goes and ads a turbo or supercharger to a car that was never ever intended to have said forced induction applied to it....
> Right there you have left the comfort zone of millions of dollars of factory testing and tuning for drivability and reliability....simple as that...How far from the comfort zone your willing to go depends on many things...like the skill and knowlage of what has been done to the car....how it will act...what are warning signs that there is a problem, how serious it is...and so on
> the


I'm not saying it isn't possible. Just not in this forum 

I've found that the majority of people turbo'ing our cars are 1st timers. Most of the 1st timers aren't educated in VW/Audi FI nor has the time to do the research. Everyone can agree with this. You are 100% right in that it takes a huge commitment but when people don't get educated then they realize they bit off more then they can chew, hence why you see so many good build projects only to be parted out later in the build. Take you for an example. I remember when you were doing so much work on the Salsa GTI. The time and effort into getting the best out of what you had which yielded good reliable power in the end. It's not like that anymore. People come here and grab the latest product without any thought. I'll compare it to a 5 star restaurant and Burger King. back in the day we wanted the best steak for the best price and the most natural Potato's grown in the US. intrigued at the way the chef prepped it. Now it's like i'm hungry..gimme a #5 with cheese...i don't care if it clogs my arteries....it's good and it makes me happy.

There are very few people here that i give huge respect to (Salsa included) that appreciate a good tune...and well built engine...a well thought out FI setup. I've been here for a long time and i've watched this (FI) forum go through it's transitions. Back in what i call the "renaissance" days .

Instead of picking apart post from guys like Paul & Kev..salsa Issam, i think there's alot to learn from guys like them. Much as they hate to admit it, they are the pioneers. i think they demand a little respect. These guys test day in & day out. They been doing it longer then most of you been driving. I'm not down playing anyone's capabilities but they've earned their strips. I'd be picking their brain instead of picking their post.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't need 500+ WHP, hell i've never been to the strip and you'll never find me there, but i do want a smooth running daily driver, being able to go to a roadcource and mess with porsche's AMG's etc.

I guess for people like me who want to learn and understand what's going on and how everything works, standalone is the way to go.
I don't want to be an no-brainer 400+hp car owner, when someone asks me why i'm making 400 hp i wan't to be able to tell them HOW and not why it's making that power.

Thanks for the info so far TIGninja, you've really got me turned around on standalone.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

pimS said:


> I don't need 500+ WHP, hell i've never been to the strip and you'll never find me there, but i do want a smooth running daily driver, being able to go to a roadcource and mess with porsche's AMG's etc.
> 
> I guess for people like me who want to learn and understand what's going on and how everything works, standalone is the way to go.
> I don't want to be an no-brainer 400+hp car owner, when someone asks me why i'm making 400 hp i wan't to be able to tell them HOW and not why it's making that power.
> ...


If you're REALLY interested in how things work MS is the ticket for you. Building you're own standalone computer (especially following the instructions in the megamanual) can give a lot of insight as to how your car works. There are even a number of tech schools and colleges using MS as a teaching tool in their automotive technology programs. I've been a mechanic for over 25 years, factory training, aftermarket traning etc...and I've learned more about how motors and fuel injection work recently than I have since school. It's also got me interested enough in electronics that I am thinking about auditing some courses at the local community college.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Here is one of the next things im getting for my car. It runs on the can/bus from the Haltech and its a simple thing to wire. It will also work with most other can/bus ECUs that are configurable as well.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Salsa GTI said:


> and for having to retune standalone for weather.....your kidding right folks? unles your using old SDS or the most hated Holley Commander 950.....there is no need for this..that what the other map sensor and iat sensors are for.....


You confuse me.... you do have to tune for weather/elevation etc..., that is what all those parameter's are for... thats why they have specific tables.... you can guess/make educated assumptions but until your vehicle is in those parameter's its best to fine tune them at that time.

I feel your mainly speaking about your main fuel/timing maps perhaps.. but no doubt, every ECU is tuned for the changing environmental conditions.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

GTijoejoe said:


> You confuse me.... you do have to tune for weather/elevation etc..., that is what all those parameter's are for... thats why they have specific tables.... you can guess/make educated assumptions but until your vehicle is in those parameter's its best to fine tune them at that time.
> 
> I feel your mainly speaking about your main fuel/timing maps perhaps.. but no doubt, every ECU is tuned for the changing environmental conditions.


He is referring to the misconception that stand-alone systems need to be "re-tuned every time the weather changes".... as in over and over again. This is not true for a capable system with a capable initial tune.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

Regarding the Air Temp Sensor, I frequently recommend that customers convert to the 1.8 Air Temp Sensor, 
and also there are several good aftermarket units.
This modification can improve both reliability and make more HP when the air is good.
A capable stand-alone ECU can offer many other protections that are simply not available in the stock ECU.
Some of these protections include (but are not limited to):

Knock Warning and Control (configurable to different frequencies, piston to wall clearances, and bore sizes)

Overboost Cut

Warning Light for:
Too Lean
High EGT
High Coolant Temp
Analog Channel (Fuel or Oil Pressure)

Boost Reduction for:
High EGT
High IAT

Fuel added above EGT limit

Closed Loop Wideband O2 Control

There are some facts for the post. I think there has been some good information in this thread 
if you read between the BS.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I agree, I have learned much in this thread.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

lugnuts said:


> I think there has been some good information in this thread
> if you read between the BS.


You mind going back and quoting those for those with short attention spans?:wave:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)




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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The ONLY time that standalone has a hard time is when someone *needs* to pass scan port OBD2 emissions. There's no real solution to that, and that's where the chips shine. Everything else, game on.


:thumbup:
...except with respect to A/C compressors 

I have been installing & selling standalone systems for 6? years now. Standalone is not for everyone but if you have a motor build pre-OBDII without hesitation a chip will lose that argument. I cant even begin to tell you how many grey hairs I have gotten over the years trying to get custom files done for AEB any pre ME7.5 vehicle to run right.

For standalones there a quite a few good systems out there (obviously I have to plug 034EFI). I am really starting to like Motec units and once they support DI then it is go time:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Issam Abed said:


> :thumbup:
> ...except with respect to A/C compressors
> 
> I have been installing & selling standalone systems for 6? years now. Standalone is not for everyone but if you have a motor build pre-OBDII without hesitation a chip will lose that argument. I cant even begin to tell you how many grey hairs I have gotten over the years trying to get custom files done for AEB any pre ME7.5 vehicle to run right.
> ...


Motec software is good but the new haltech software is just as good (it looks like the new MS and VEMS stuff is just about the same). As far as hardware goes the new haltech stuff is rock solid as well.

As far as software goes all the software goes it all seems like everything is going in the same direction.They all either seem to have been developed by the same person or have naturally evolved in the same manner.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Issam Abed said:


> :thumbup:
> ...except with respect to A/C compressors


What's the issue there? I did one car over the summer with AC, didn't have a problem.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The ONLY time that standalone has a hard time is when someone *needs* to pass scan port OBD2 emissions. There's no real solution to that, and that's where the chips shine. Everything else, game on.


I have to disagree. For the person wanting up to ~400whp it's not "game on" for standalone if a proven chip is provided for their car.

42# file is $350 new and the time invested is 10 min. Those are features many find appealing. 

The hardcore guys always talk about ultimate power, adjustability, advanced features. I think that's a niche market honestly. 

60# tune or where a swap is involved(my setup) and the price point between the two is ~close, but for 30# and 42# power goals standalone can't match the price or time investment of install and setup. Power hounds don't care about those two points, but there are many with busy lives, lower budgets, and/or lower power goals that do:beer:

Another point not talked about. LEAD TIME. My setup is ready. Track is open. I can order a "chip" and have it here in 2 days and go racing. Standalone can't touch that. Reference some of the threads and see the time frame from order to where the car is running.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> I have to disagree. For the person wanting up to ~400whp it's not "game on" for standalone if a proven chip is provided for their car.
> 
> 42# file is $350 new and the time invested is 10 min. Those are features many find appealing.
> 
> ...


Plus you still need to get the matching MAF housing,AVCR ,and countless other things. In the end your going to be fighting knock threasholds and all kinds of other problems that the stock ECU cannot deal with like stock designed for NA coil packs. 

Also the idea that you can pop in a chip and go out and run 11s is just foolish. You need the same amount of time invested to get the car set up properly as you would with a standalone because instead of having a bunch of add-on that were not designed to work together trying achieve a result as compared to a whole system that works in harmony to do everything you want.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

What does it take to get a VR6 (probably OBD2 because this seems to be giving the best results ATM) into the 11s? I am refering to engine management stuff BTW. 

1. chip
2.MAF housing
3. injectors
4. AVC-r
5. ????


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> What does it take to get a VR6 (probably OBD2 because this seems to be giving the best results ATM) into the 11s? I am refering to engine management stuff BTW.
> 
> 1. chip
> 2.MAF housing
> ...


I ran 11's w/ a 30# chip in my Corrado. That's it. No AVCR, stock MAF housing. Injectors are needed with every setup are they not? Same with everything else. I'm comparing management to management. Of course you need other things, but so does every setup.

Management wise it cost me $300 new and 10 min install to run [email protected] w/ a so-so 1.8x 60' in a pretty heavy car ~2680#.

11.5's w/ the 42#($350) and housing ($100)=$450 and no avcr and a 1.8x. 

I will agree that once you get past this mark the cost-benefit of the chip route starts to decrease. AVCR, maybe 60# tune, 2 step, etc. However, up to this point it's $300-$450 total for management and 10 min. of time to put a ~2700# street car w/ a soft suspension and mediocre 60' in the 11.5's. Good stopping point for some which is why a chip setup makes so much sense for this type of customer.

Beyond that and standalone is the answer IMO. Then your getting into a roll bar, built motor, trans, etc. They go hand in hand. Although I would like to see what a 60#, AVCR, car could do...:sly: Mid-high 10's imo.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Currently in process of going 034 IIC on my Corrado. I was very unhappy with chip tunes with poor part throttle response, bucking and everything else under the sun. One ruined engine later I said screw it and picked up standalone. Running MAF-less was one of the major factors due to trying to get a MAF to fit on a SC setup without sucking in water when it rains is pretty much impossible. 

Standalone is the only way to go if your setup is not out of the box 100% as every change from the original designed intent of the software is one step closer to mechanical failure. 

First experience with standalone was a friends mk2 16vt running Autronic. When he bought the car it had spent 5 years sitting. Threw in some fresh fuel and the thing ran like a top. If I let my car sit for a month with C2 it was like trying to get an old lawnmower started (this was with every sensor brand new, every one!) Then for the first hour or so it would run rough, then sort of get into a groove, but not ever not suffering from the part throttle bucking syndrome. Most likely due to the load calculations for the blower not being done correctly as the C2 tune was a general Turbo file.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

C2 tunes = turbo. 

SC = try at your own risk. Much of what you mentioned is SC/old MAF related.

Doesn't need to be "out of the box". If the car is in good shape any flow related mods are fine with a MAF based tune unlike a MAP based setup which needs retuned. Run the compression, intake setup, and fuel rec. by the tuner and you're good to go.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

TIGninja said:


> Motec software is good but the new haltech software is just as good (it looks like the new MS and VEMS stuff is just about the same). As far as hardware goes the new haltech stuff is rock solid as well.


Never really been sold on Haltech. Had a old system and didnt like it....cant comment on the new units unfortunately.


TIGninja said:


> As far as software goes all the software goes it all seems like everything is going in the same direction.They all either seem to have been developed by the same person or have naturally evolved in the same manner.


Its a chip. Did you expect anything less? There are only so many ways to skin a cat before you realize changing a fuel values in a timing curve only affects power so much.
Mild performance but superb reliability and long term testing - APR
Wild performance but questionable reliability (hit or miss) - All the others.


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## smugfree3 (Feb 20, 2006)

Issam Abed said:


> I cant even begin to tell you how many grey hairs I have gotten over the years trying to get custom files done for AEB any pre ME7.5 vehicle to run right.
> 
> For standalones there a quite a few good systems out there (obviously I have to plug 034EFI). I am really starting to like Motec units and once they support DI then it is go time:thumbup:


whats so hard about the aeb's? i like my 42lb tune. if something goes wrong, its a sensor related failure, just like a stock car. no biggie. 
i can empathaize with the arguments for standalone, but i think chip tunes get a disservice done to them by bad hardware setups. 
i mean, lots of people in here have had no problem agreeing that there a lot of turbo car owners out there that had no business turbo'ing there car, yet these folks are all presumed to be running 100% solid hardware setups, no vacuum leaks, etc.
i took a holistic approach and have gone with and stuck with a setup that was gonna push what the chip is capable of pushing. not more, and i certainley dont expect it to deal with crappy hardware problems like a currently leaking pinhole on one of my boostpipe welds. am i on here going "man my chip tune blows cuz its running a little rich under boost up top". no, i looked for and found a simple problem and resolution.
when i finally do upgrade, ill prolly go standalone b/c of what i want. i certainly wont throw together all my parts and then attempt to run the same chip, or someother chip made for xyz parameters and then whine that im making crappy power instead of spit-shining my wheels.
the engine management, although it oversees all of the parts, is still just a single peice of the puzzle and must be approached as such and given the best chance by the owner to interact with parts that it will interact well with. 
would you use a frayed extension cord, and then blame the device for blowing the fuse in your breaker box?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

smugfree3 said:


> whats so hard about the aeb's? i like my 42lb tune. if something goes wrong, its a sensor related failure, just like a stock car. no biggie.
> i can empathaize with the arguments for standalone, but i think chip tunes get a disservice done to them by bad hardware setups.
> i mean, lots of people in here have had no problem agreeing that there a lot of turbo car owners out there that had no business turbo'ing there car, yet these folks are all presumed to be running 100% solid hardware setups, no vacuum leaks, etc.
> i took a holistic approach and have gone with and stuck with a setup that was gonna push what the chip is capable of pushing. not more, and i certainley dont expect it to deal with crappy hardware problems like a currently leaking pinhole on one of my boostpipe welds. am i on here going "man my chip tune blows cuz its running a little rich under boost up top". no, i looked for and found a simple problem and resolution.
> ...


A few years back I was working as a auto tech at a VW repair shop/car lot. At one point we had two identical VR6 corrados.One hauled ass and one was a complete turd. They were both in perfect running order and ran perfect,just that one was slow and the other was fast (through 3rd gear probably three car lengths was the difference).We switched every removable part (all sensors ECU,everything). No matter what we did the slow one was slow.

When you take this difference and mulitply it by 10 or 20 lbs of boost there is no way that a chip tune will be able to compensate. The lucky ones who have a car that runs closer to the car the chip was tuned for will get good results and the ones who have the other car will get very poor results. There have been many very competent people who have tried the chips with no success. Its a hit or miss solution. Standalone is not hit or miss. Its tuned for the car the way it is.


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## smugfree3 (Feb 20, 2006)

TIGninja said:


> A few years back I was working as a auto tech at a VW repair shop/car lot. At one point we had two identical VR6 corrados.One hauled ass and one was a complete turd. They were both in perfect running order and ran perfect,just that one was slow and the other was fast (through 3rd gear probably three car lengths was the difference).We switched every removable part (all sensors ECU,everything). No matter what we did the slow one was slow.
> 
> When you take this difference and mulitply it by 10 or 20 lbs of boost there is no way that a chip tune will be able to compensate. The lucky ones who have a car that runs closer to the car the chip was tuned for will get good results and the ones who have the other car will get very poor results. There have been many very competent people who have tried the chips with no success. Its a hit or miss solution. Standalone is not hit or miss. Its tuned for the car the way it is.


this is why these discussions never end up anywhere productive:banghead: anecdotal evidence!
leaving three car lengths is a complete turd? slower, yes, turd, no. maybe it was just a crappy chip? are we certain they were both putting up the same compression? identical spark plugs? one have a gutted/race cat? some unseen mod? worked cylinder head? badly worked cylinder head? excessive carbon build up? running perfect is a pretty big catch all.
and 10 or 20? 10 or 20. thats a big difference in boost pressures. 
anecdotal evidence, extreme examples, rash generalizations and assumptions, all of the above are applied to the idea of the chip tune all too frequently. 
im not saying that there arent bad chips, or that there never had been and its all user error. but if a chip has been proven, then the only challenge that is presented is that of maintaining a good running car (mechanically). those who dont and then blindly blame the chip are your forum horror stories

where im coming from? i use an upsolute chip for 440's. a chip that i was told by everyone in the 1.8t forums would never run right, ever, period. that up. tunes were bad. car runs great, and every problem ive ever had has never been the chips fault. dynoed 276whp and 302wtq. right on the money for a 28r. 
now, i dont have any expandability beyond a 28 series turbo.
i dont have any advanced boost control features.
no traction control or launch control.
did i expect these for $500. no.
standalone is for when you have no options left, which is why ill go there when i upgrade. it has to be understood by the end user exactley what they wanting to do.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

The #'s are what they are. If a mid-low 11 car is a complete turd then go bigger than the 42# tune on a 12v VR. I think it's almost 4 sec. faster than the car was stock. Faster than your allowed to go w/out a roll bar and faster than anything OE save some exotics and that's arguable. 

I think it should be a rule that you need to have a 10 sec. timeslip to call a low 11 car a turd. Just my opinion.:beer:


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> A few years back I was working as a auto tech at a VW repair shop/car lot. At one point we had two identical VR6 corrados.One hauled ass and one was a complete turd. They were both in perfect running order and ran perfect,just that one was slow and the other was fast (through 3rd gear probably three car lengths was the difference).We switched every removable part (all sensors ECU,everything). No matter what we did the slow one was slow.
> 
> When you take this difference and mulitply it by 10 or 20 lbs of boost there is no way that a chip tune will be able to compensate. The lucky ones who have a car that runs closer to the car the chip was tuned for will get good results and the ones who have the other car will get very poor results. There have been many very competent people who have tried the chips with no success. Its a hit or miss solution. Standalone is not hit or miss. Its tuned for the car the way it is.


and there is no way that stand alone will compensate for a motor that doesnt make stock power either. if you replaced everything, and power was still down, it was a mechanical or assembly issue (very common on old VRs, especially the dizzy cars).

:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> and there is no way that stand alone will compensate for a motor that doesnt make stock power either. if you replaced everything, and power was still down, it was a mechanical or assembly issue (very common on old VRs, especially the dizzy cars).
> 
> :beer:


Im kinda curious why a standalone cannot do this?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

smugfree3 said:


> whats so hard about the aeb's? i like my 42lb tune.


Your 42 lb tune is probably specific to your hardware set up. Over the last 5 years I have sold over 80 AEB files from Mika, Eurodyne , Unitronic , Revo and others and I will say all thought the hardware was exactly the same every time. The software was always somewhat hit or miss...requiring ECU's to be reshipped and returned many times.


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## smugfree3 (Feb 20, 2006)

Issam Abed said:


> Your 42 lb tune is probably specific to your hardware set up. Over the last 5 years I have sold over 80 AEB files from Mika, Eurodyne , Unitronic , Revo


who are others? and when has revo ever made DBC stuff?


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## smugfree3 (Feb 20, 2006)

TIGninja said:


> Im kinda curious why a standalone cannot do this?


are you even being serious? 
your actually suggesting that a pro of standalone is the ability to tune around mechanical issues, and of course that a con of chip tunes is that they cant compensate for those same mechanical issues. really...:banghead:
its like saying "well ive got this busted ring land on cylinder 3, but we can just tune around that since my standalone is so great, sure am glad i ditched that chip tune, it would never be able to adjust for this!"
this is the worst part of the standalone argument and ive been through it with lots of people. its this idea that identical engines are in some way vastly different in the amount of power left on the table. i mean what are we talking about here, the slightly differing friction of the bearings or rings, how well the crank is polished, the f*****g cross-hatch on the cylinder walls?
if your running some out there, outside the box untested hardware setup get standalone. 
if you wanna make x horsepower, and theres a hardware and chip setup that match each other, do it, youll save time. but your car needs to be issue free to start with!
now can we please put away this notion of tuning around mech. problems? its a terrible argument.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

smugfree3 said:


> are you even being serious?
> your actually suggesting that a pro of standalone is the ability to tune around mechanical issues, and of course that a con of chip tunes is that they cant compensate for those same mechanical issues. really...:banghead:
> its like saying "well ive got this busted ring land on cylinder 3, but we can just tune around that since my standalone is so great, sure am glad i ditched that chip tune, it would never be able to adjust for this!"
> this is the worst part of the standalone argument and ive been through it with lots of people. its this idea that identical engines are in some way vastly different in the amount of power left on the table. i mean what are we talking about here, the slightly differing friction of the bearings or rings, how well the crank is polished, the f*****g cross-hatch on the cylinder walls?
> ...


Chip tunes fail about half of the time. Your solution is to blame a car that runs just fine. Alot of these chips were installed by mechanics that were more then qualified. Alot of these same mechanics have went on and installed standalone on the car and it runs perfect after that.The chip tune was the problem.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Im kinda curious why a standalone cannot do this?


stand alone has no magic in it. sure if a motor is weak you could add more timing, but at the end of the day, its never going to make as much power as a strong motor (whether on stand alone, or chip tune).

( i once witnessed two identical NA setups dyno 25whp different, thats how bad/good some motors were back in the day).

:heart:


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Chip tunes fail about half of the time. Your solution is to blame a car that runs just fine. Alot of these chips were installed by mechanics that were more then qualified. Alot of these same mechanics have went on and installed standalone on the car and it runs perfect after that.The chip tune was the problem.


seriously? how much experience do you even have with them? this and your avcr comment earlier suggests you dont have any. Kinetic has sold thousands of vrt kits, are you suggesting that there are over 1000 people who have had failed builds because of software?

williing to bet that if you talk to the people selling their stand alone in the classifieds that a lot of them are doing so because they were sick of dealign with it, and are going to go stock, or chip tune.


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

And looking from another angle that wasnt mentioned yet is the flexibility that stand alone gives the user.
Get a new cam and wants to rev to stupid high revs no problem, wants to swap a new head or a new motor...its okay. For the ecu is just another day at work plug yourinjectors and coils and go to town


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> seriously? how much experience do you even have with them? this and your avcr comment earlier suggests you dont have any. Kinetic has sold thousands of vrt kits, are you suggesting that there are over 1000 people who have had failed builds because of software?
> 
> williing to bet that if you talk to the people selling their stand alone in the classifieds that a lot of them are doing so because they were sick of dealign with it, and are going to go stock, or chip tune.


I've beaten the piss out of my chip tuned FI cars for 4 years at the track and on the street. 98 degree weather, missed shifts, over revs, etc. Never an issue.

Funny how the older, more knowledgeable guys that run chips don't have issues 99% of the time. New MAF, coil, O2's, plugs, chains, proper install, etc. The "problems with chips" misconception comes about because what method of management are the segment that are broke, not knowledgeable, and have a pos car with issues going to pick? They're going to put a chip in it and then start a thread about how the chip sucks. 

I can't speak for all tunes, but some are so proven that bashing them is really grasping at straws. Especially the obd2 42#. I mean it was in the tuner's personal car


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Issam Abed said:


> :thumbup:
> ...except with respect to A/C compressors
> 
> I have been installing & selling standalone systems for 6? years now. Standalone is not for everyone but if you have a motor build pre-OBDII without hesitation a chip will lose that argument. I cant even begin to tell you how many grey hairs I have gotten over the years trying to get custom files done for AEB any pre ME7.5 vehicle to run right.
> ...


While I would agree that Motec is a very nice and very very flexible SEM I think there are better choices out there. I've just spent the last week working on a Motec M600 powered Ex SCCA World Challenge BMW (E46 chassis) and my main issues are as follows:
1: Price: The M600, ADL (logging dash), custom wiring harness, and sensors cost close to $20K
2: Complexity: Motec seems to be complicated just for the sake of being complicated. (the help files are good though)
3: Motec ECU Manager: While there are some cool features in the software it's missing some very obvious ones. AND WTF is up with alpha-n being the recommended method for N/A motors????? Also the fact that ALL of the trims including crank/start settings are tied into the main fuel table makes life a challenge.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> I've beaten the piss out of my chip tuned FI cars for 4 years at the track and on the street. 98 degree weather, missed shifts, over revs, etc. Never an issue.
> 
> Funny how the older, more knowledgeable guys that run chips don't have issues 99% of the time. New MAF, coil, O2's, plugs, chains, proper install, etc. The "problems with chips" misconception comes about because what method of management are the segment that are broke, not knowledgeable, and have a pos car with issues going to pick? They're going to put a chip in it and then start a thread about how the chip sucks.
> 
> I can't speak for all tunes, but some are so proven that bashing them is really grasping at straws. Especially the obd2 42#. I mean it was in the tuner's personal car



so say the tuners car ecu is 021906259n and he sells the chip based on his setup . here is just a small list of vr6 ecu,s 
021906258t, 021906259a, 021906259aa, 021906259ae, 021906259b, 021906259k, 021906259l, 021906259m, 021906259n, 021906259p, 021906259q, 021906259s
some even have wiring small differences between years and are switched inside the ecu coding to use another map to suit the models and immisions control 

this is why people have mixed results with a chip tune edited to try suit all models 

it works good on yours so you expect the next guy to be doing something wrong if he is having problems this is were i was and the help i got was is your maf plugged in the right way dude :banghead:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

magner said:


> so say the tuners car ecu is 021906259n and he sells the chip based on his setup . here is just a small list of vr6 ecu,s
> 021906258t, 021906259a, 021906259aa, 021906259ae, 021906259b, 021906259k, 021906259l, 021906259m, 021906259n, 021906259p, 021906259q, 021906259s
> some even have wiring small differences between years and are switched inside the ecu coding to use another map to suit the models and immisions control
> 
> ...


Actually the base engine hardware is the same and it the differences in the ECUs were mainly for emissions purposes. 

As far as the differences in the switching of the maps the ecu code is pretty easy to modify to run off one set of maps no matter what inputs are selected. This is what I do and the chip files I have seen from Jeff are the same.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Tuner says all ecu codes on a mk3 12V work with the 42#. It's been my experience that they do. Anything is possible though.


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## smugfree3 (Feb 20, 2006)

TBT-Syncro said:


> seriously? how much experience do you even have with them? this and your avcr comment earlier suggests you dont have any. Kinetic has sold thousands of vrt kits, *are you suggesting that there are over 1000 people who have had failed builds because of software?*williing to bet that if you talk to the people selling their stand alone in the classifieds that a lot of them are doing so because they were sick of dealign with it, and are going to go stock, or chip tune.


x2. these are the rash generalizations i was talking about, can we please stop with these?!

while i agree with you syncro about maybe "being tired of dealing with it", this could be as simple as being tired of dealing with a certain software interface, DTA for instance, and being afraid of running into a similarly bad interface with another system. 
somebody brought up the flexibility thing, i dont think anyone is denying that, its the biggest pro of standalone, that it can run anything.
whether or not the pro-standalone people want to admit it or not, i think its starting to show that their argument against chips is in large part based upon cars that have issues the tune is not causing.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

If you guys think that two different engines that run completely different require the same tune then you are all nuts. This is why either a custom chip tune or standalone is required for some of these engines. There is nothing wrong with these engines except for the fact that they do not match the tune file that was sold to you. With a tune that matches the engine they can be tuned to run just fine.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

smugfree3 said:


> their argument against chips is in large part based upon cars that have issues the tune is not causing.


That and a jealousy due to what some chipped cars have achieved ET and power wise. I could be wrong, but it's just a hunch. This is a similar argument to the $600 vs. $100 intercooler and the SRI vs. stock manifold debates that go on and on ad nauseum. It seems whenever someone spends less money and/or less time than someone else to achieve the same goals the guy who spent more always has an issue with it. 

Be happy and secure with the choices you made for your setup. Maybe the guy running high 11's with a $300 chip is thrilled with his results and is happy to tell people so they too may enjoy that experience. I know I was. Everybody's always gotta knock somebody down around here

Case in point. My bolt on chipped setup that runs 11.4's "sucks" because there are people running 9's. I don't even understand the logic of the put down. I work next to a guy that runs 5's. His goals, time, and money spent have nothing to do with mine nor does the guy's that runs 9's. They don't matter to me when I'm crossing the line at 130mph screaming my head off b/c I just ran down a V8 with 2-3 times the displacement:beer: At that moment my "pos" chip, intake, and ebay intercooler doesn't feel "wrong" or "inferior" . Ask the guys in the lane next to me on friday nights if my setup was done "wrong". If it's not a race car it's probably seeing my tail lights.


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## smugfree3 (Feb 20, 2006)

TIGninja said:


> If you guys think that two different engines that run completely different require the same tune then you are all nuts. This is why either a custom chip tune or standalone is required for some of these engines. There is nothing wrong with these engines except for the fact that they do not match the tune file that was sold to you. With a tune that matches the engine they can be tuned to run just fine.


_two completely different engines_: you mean a 4cyl vs. 6cyl. then yeah, not gonna work. oh wait, you must mean two engines assembled by the same factory with the same parts. that somehow run completely different. please, PLEASE, define a vr6 that runs *completely different *from another vr6.

_required for [some of] these engines:_ you must mean the ones that run completely different right? probably more like the ones that have running issues, ergo, running completely different. 

_they do not match the tune file that was sold to you_: nobody gets a gun held to there head when they buy a tune. if your setup doesnt match whats specified to be within the limits of a chip file, thats the fault of the end user.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Actually cars that have different mechanical properties like the two VR6s I mentioned earlier require very different tunes to make them fast. What it all boils down to is if your car is similar to the one that the chip was designed for then your tune will be good for you. If your car is one of the other cars then you will be one of the people crying about how thier cars run like crap (and the tuner cant help them).

Future upgrades? With a chip tune your very limited but with a standalone you can upgrade anytime you like. 

Change the fuel? Yea you can put it race gas but you wont have enough timing to really take advantage with a chip tune. Standalone again is a better choice if you ever plan to use anything other then station wagon gas 

Ignition system running out of steam? Good luck getting other stuff to work to make more power. With standalone you can run whatever coils you like.

If the chip lovers here spent as much time working on the chip tuning end as they do arguing they would be so much faster then they are. The rest of the performance car world is laughing at you guys because your slow and still havent figured out how to tune your own ECUs because your here arguing. :laugh:


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

This thread seems to be focused on which setup makes more power. I feel regardless of power that a standalone can make your car run quicker ( with regards to 1/4 mile racing) with options that a chip just can't offer. The majority of the time i plan on removing off my ET will be gained in the 1/8th not on the big end and it will come with proper 2step tuning and traction aids. 
As far as proper tuning.... Why is it in the v8 world the diablosport/SCT/etc type programmers have shops who dyno tune specific tunes for specific mods? Because the tune has to change to have the car run as efficiently as possible. Hell. Look at all the different tunes COBB tuning has for evos/sti's. They change the tune with each minor bolt on. 
How close does the vw (vr6 anyways) community get to this???? A 268 cam file. 
We are soooo far behind everyone else


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

The thread should be focused on all aspects of the comparison simply because ultimate power is not everyone's main priority. Chips can achieve the majority of power goals and so for most both options are viable alternatives.

-Cost
-Lead time(from time order is placed until it's in customers hands)
-Ease of install
-Passing emissions testing
-Driveability
-Adjustability
-Power capabilities
-Features (wideband, 2step, gear based boost, etc.)
-Ease of tuning and wilingness/ability to tune your own car.
-Wants/needs of the customer

Unless it's a race car looking to break records all of the above should be considered. 

Oh and since we're referencing other makes etc. turbotweak.com . My neighbors t-type runs 10's in daily driver trim with a chip and matched injectors. It's not a formula that's exclusive to VW's. 
Are OE turbo cars not MAF based cars that are chip tuned? You bet they are.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> The thread should be focused on all aspects of the comparison simply because ultimate power is not everyone's main priority. Chips can achieve the majority of power goals and so for most both options are viable alternatives.
> 
> -Cost
> -Lead time(from time order is placed until it's in customers hands)
> ...


The only thing that a canned tuned chip has over standalone is OBD testing. This is very easily fixed as long as you keep the stock harness in the car.


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## Nuzzi (Oct 18, 2001)

now that MS3 is available i will be going that route since im looking for more than a 42# setup but cant see spending all the money on the pro maf setup plus the obd2 conversion. not to mention my setup is far from out of the box and if it takes me a year to get it right then im fine with that, good things take time.

I would like to see more info on tuning SA systems, and how to go about the knock sensor system with SA.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

For most people knock sensor + standalone is a bad idea. It generally isn't calibrated anywhere near how well the factory ones are and thus fairly unreliable. People think they can rely on it because it's hooked up, and next thing you know- broken.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I have decided that after the compromises with digi 1 and the fact that I have an ms1 v2.2 collecting dust next to me its time to make a change. Chip flipping is getting old


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> I have decided that after the compromises with digi 1 and the fact that I have an ms1 v2.2 collecting dust next to me its time to make a change. Chip flipping is getting old


About time.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> For most people knock sensor + standalone is a bad idea. It generally isn't calibrated anywhere near how well the factory ones are and thus fairly unreliable. People think they can rely on it because it's hooked up, and next thing you know- broken.


x2....

Any anyone tried an audiable knock sensor setup with head phones?
I figured I would try this method out this spring when I street tune, already made the harness off the stock knock sensor.... Got this trick from some dude tuning his ridiculously powerful RS6


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

TIGninja said:


> About time.


**** off :laugh:


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## scarboroughdub (Jul 8, 2002)

TIGninja said:


> The only reason the tuners here dont want to tune OBD1 is because any clown with a chip burner can copy the chip file onto another chip.


The real reason is because people dont know what they are doing with obd1 vr6 tunes. i didnt wake up one morning download tunerpro with a somewhat ready xdf and become a chip tuner.

The truth is north american chip tuners are 10 years behind european tuners. 

Both stock ecu and standalone can be reliable and attain the desired goal, it just depends on how experienced and educated the tuner/installer is.

Megasquirt is a ok system but haltech is a better system, not just because it has a fancy interface but because you pay for the support and constant updates that you get.

As a business owner its worth it to pay that little extra for the support you get with a product. sometimes the problem is obvious sometimes its days of troubleshooting but knowing you can contact someone is worth the price.

Personally i chip tune every car i build, only reason i will use a standalone is if the car being built isnt as common and to invest R&D time to reverse engineer the stock ecu is just not worth it.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

scarboroughdub said:


> The real reason is because people dont know what they are doing with obd1 vr6 tunes. i didnt wake up one morning download tunerpro with a somewhat ready xdf and become a chip tuner.
> 
> The truth is north american chip tuners are 10 years behind european tuners.
> 
> ...


Clearly you have never been on the Megasquirt Forums. The firmware developers spend hours every day helping people with issues. And anytime a firmware bug is reported and confirmed it is fixed and an update is released in days at the worst sometimes in a few hours.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

So to end all this nonscence obut how good cchip in a box can run any car...They cant by the way
sombody man up and write software to access the me7 so the people with brains can tune ther own damn car with the damn factory ECU like all the damn cars from Japan....seriously this one tune with 440 injectors fits every VR6 up to "X" whp is complete bull...and no i dont care how good or fast any one car is....there are hundreds that run like ass...stall rev hang and do all sorts of stupid crap...and there is a cretin unmnamed tuner that has no idea what timing should be at full load....Hope he dies BTW...............
or the MAF will compensate for every change you make....right sure.....thats why no matter what you bolt to an ...well an EVO lets say......there is one flash to solve every cam / throttle body / exhaust / turbo / port job ETC......
OH wait in fantasy land thats how it works....or is it the Bosch ECU is self calibrating to any and all combinations of engines ever imagined????????
A FLASH LOADER FOR CARS THAT DID NOT LEAVE THE FACTORY WITH A TURBO HUNG ON THEM.........that would cover 70% of the cars...mainly the ones that need to please the feds....
Thats what every other car is using...well except us poor bastards that like german cars...we will forever be stuck with plug and pray.....and the people that want a car that runs to its potential will run stand alone........Ok I'm out......the next car in my garage will not be a VW...unles my plan is to put air bags on it a bunch of stupid stickers a retarded looking headliner or a shaved bay with zero preformance.......oops forgot streched tires that i can get my finger between the bead and the rim................:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

^

Nice rant. While I agree that standalone will be the way to go for those looking to max their setup, break records, etc. like it or not there are hundreds if not thousands of chip cars that run very well.

Discount the threads by the broke 16-18 year olds with cracked coilpacks, original sensors from top to bottom, faulty installs, etc. etc. and I believe you are left with a VERY small % that have issues at least with the more proven chip tunes. I've raced with or rode in at least 8-10 42# cars owned by guys that either work on cars for a living or are very knowledgeable. Funny how not one that I know of has had an issue.

For the ~1-5% that have a compatability issue with their ecu. 1) Sell the chip or 2) Buy a used ecu for $50. Still not convinced? Then go standalone from the start, but don't be one of the guys waving the flag that chip tunes don't work. They do work for the vast majority of cars that are in good running order.

Also be realistic. 100% of the guys with standalone, their cars run PERFECT 100% of the time in all conditions? Yeah right. I'm talking everybody not just the cars tuned by professionals. That's why some people I know are still playing with their tunes 2 years later and have yet to post a decent time slip.

It's like me saying I know ONE guy that went standalone, the car ran like sht, he blew it up, and so standalone sucks. I know several btw, but I'm not ignorant enough to make a broad generalization based on a few cars.


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

Stand alone FTW!!!

I mean think about back in the carburetor days....one didnt have much adjustability there was only so much that could be done related to fueling you would never be on the "spot" across the powerband, with out o2 sensors all that could be done where watch the exhaust for clouds of smoke and "listen to knock" by ear.

Same thing with timing it could only be adjusted so much. It would either advance or retard across the whole rpm range.

A stand alone ecu for anyone from back on these days is like a dream coming true. One can adjust every single load by every single rpm of timing and fuel plus thousands of features and the engine can be optmized to work with everything else on the car not the other way around.

Now would anyone that is serious about performance throw away all this capabilities out the window for a generic "one size fits all" tune that you can be sure is not anywhere near making your car perform at its best because it wasnt optmized for this particular car.

Every single part in a car (or any machine for that matter) has tolerances. If you roll a 100 cars out the production line and inspect one by one, even with all the technology and modern machinery they wont be exact the same let alone a engine that has been fitted with aftermarket parts or engines with differnt mileages, etc. 
So how can a PERFORMANCE chip tune work good with so many engines with different combinations of parts and different mileages and so many other factors - intake and exhaust diameters and lenght, intercooler efficiency and so on....

There is so many factors that the chip cant cover that is not even arguably. To me the best part of modifying a car is to tune it. Thats when a real tuner can make a difference. I mean no offense but anyone can bolt a couple pipes and a intercooler on a saturday (or a chip:facepalm but how many can make it all work together? 

x2 time to crack open the ecu and make it tuneable like hondata, volksdata perhaps?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Myliljettatoy said:


> Stand alone FTW!!!
> 
> I mean think about back in the carburetor days....one didnt have much adjustability there was only so much that could be done related to fueling you would never be on the "spot" across the powerband, with out o2 sensors all that could be done where watch the exhaust for clouds of smoke and "listen to knock" by ear.
> 
> ...


Just hold on there one second, I went 11.60's on a 30# C2 chip. I hear what your saying, but you make a chip sound like nothing more than an FMU and walbro. Are they perfect, no but what is perfect. I have a buddy with water meth and a chip tune on a 87 GN and it goes 9's, though by the logic in here he is not getting the most out of his 9 sec car that he drives on the street. Standalone has a few really good things over a chip tune. That does not make other methods wrong or crappy. There is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Just hold on there one second, I went 11.60's on a 30# C2 chip. I hear what your saying, but you make a chip sound like nothing more than an FMU and walbro. Are they perfect, no but what is perfect. I have a buddy with water meth and a chip tune on a 87 GN and it goes 9's, though by the logic in here he is not getting the most out of his 9 sec car that he drives on the street. Standalone has a few really good things over a chip tune. That does not make other methods wrong or crappy. There is more than one way to skin a cat.


I didnt mean to bash on chips, as you stated theres a lot more to it then just adding fuel like a fmu but you can be sure the chip tune will always be super conservative because the tuner dont want to be responsible for blowing motors left and right.

So yes I think its safe to say that you and your buddy or anyone running a chip can always get more out of their builds when tuning with a stand alone ecu :thumbup::beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

At this point I think everything of any value has already been said. Redundant isn't the word at this point

Hopefully some have learned a lesson. There is obviously a market for each method as each offers features/benefits that the other doesn't. Pick the one that fits your needs/goals. At the same time understand that the guy that chose another route isn't "stupid, lazy, an idiot, not smart enough, etc." Your situation in life is not everyone's situation. The 22 yr. old living with his parents with no kids and no mortgage has alot more time on his hands than the 35 yr. old with two kids, a mortgage, wife, etc. etc. If you get 2-3 hrs a week to enjoy your hobby I think most would rather spend it racing than tuning.

For the "my way is the right way" crew, all I can say is your going to spend most of your life frustrated. Politics, religion, music, work environment, etc. Your perspective isn't going to be everyone's. If someone spent $300 to run 11's and are happy with the result they aren't wrong about anything. However, I think there is something wrong with the person that feels a need to put it down:thumbdown:

I would also have a little more respect for the "maximize your setup" argument from the standalone crew if the one's saying it had 10 sec. timeslips. Unfortunately most of them don't.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok so you guys know the whole custom tuning your ecu is not the big deal people think it is. If you have a laptop with a USB port then thats all you need. I have been tuning OBD1 motronics for years using similar methods and now they hae a live trace that basically turns your ecu into a standalone. Here are a couple images from this.



















If the people here spent more time looking at this there would be more tuning and less idiots trying to stuff off the shelf chip tunes up peoples a$$. 

There is another thread here where I am trying to teach others how to set up the tune files so they can bring it to any honda tuner(they already have the hardware) and have your car tuned. All you usually need to pay for is dyno time.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I will be on vaction for the next two weeks but when I get back we will look at real chip tuning. And no mr SLCturbo we are not done yet. There is so much more available that you dont even understand.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I saw that thread, it has alot of good info in it.:thumbup: There are also alot of places that tune hondas around me that are really good.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Myliljettatoy said:


> I didnt mean to bash on chips, as you stated theres a lot more to it then just adding fuel like a fmu but you can be sure the chip tune will always be super conservative because the tuner dont want to be responsible for blowing motors left and right.
> 
> So yes I think its safe to say that you and your buddy or anyone running a chip can always get more out of their builds when tuning with a stand alone ecu :thumbup::beer:


Oh I didn't mean to come off as harsh either, this is nothing to argue over IMO. I was just getting at chips can work really well in other applications with some fine tuning. My old supervisors Civic is a 10 sec chip tuned 1.6l, but he burns his own chips. I think if I were to try something other than PNP chips I would do something like Tig is talking about. You don't need a standalone, but you can have control over the tune with chips that you write.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

tigninja said:


> ok so you guys know the whole custom tuning your ecu is not the big deal people think it is. If you have a laptop with a usb port then thats all you need. I have been tuning obd1 motronics for years using similar methods and now they hae a live trace that basically turns your ecu into a standalone. Here are a couple images from this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...i have no idea at all what any of those tables are or what to do with them... I have no experience tuning a car... Or even understand where to start... Am i candidate for sem?


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

Boost112 said:


> ...i have no idea at all what any of those tables are or what to do with them... I have no experience tuning a car... Or even understand where to start... Am i candidate for sem?


i had no idea same as you..if your car runs ok with a chip then happy days do not bother learning its not for everyone .....my car did not run ok with chip if it did i would not have bothered .i were kinda forced into learning how to get my car running good .. but at least now it costs me less than a dollar for a blank chip and 2 seconds to program it with my $19 programmer when i buy another vr6t :thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Boost112 said:


> ...i have no idea at all what any of those tables are or what to do with them... I have no experience tuning a car... Or even understand where to start... Am i candidate for sem?


Well done


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## colovw (Aug 27, 2007)

magner said:


> but at least now it costs me less than a dollar for a blank chip and 2 seconds to program it with my $19 programmer when i buy another vr6t :thumbup:


Care to elaborate?:thumbup:


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Well done


congrats on changing your sig yet again
:facepalm:


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

Boost112 said:


> ...i have no idea at all what any of those tables are or what to do with them... I have no experience tuning a car... Or even understand where to start... Am i candidate for sem?


I have zero experience with tuning a standalone and don't know what any of that stuff is but I've had standalone on 2 of my cars and have driven the car just like any other.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

The Yoda said:


> I have zero experience with tuning a standalone and don't know what any of that stuff is but I've had standalone on 2 of my cars and have driven the car just like any other.


Well done


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

The Yoda said:


> I have zero experience with tuning a standalone and don't know what any of that stuff is but I've had standalone on 2 of my cars and have driven the car just like any other.


ok... so then when you upgrade a part or want to change a variable what do you do? ... what are you and only you... not a tuner or a person with previous experience... going to do to change/ maximize that tune?


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

Boost112 said:


> ok... so then when you upgrade a part or want to change a variable what do you do? ... what are you and only you... not a tuner or a person with previous experience... going to do to change/ maximize that tune?


I take it to my tuner, who happens to be 6 hours away. Drive it there, drive it back.

I had a vr6 turbo I sold a few years back and kept in touch with the owner for the time he had it. He never changed the setup or motor. Same tune and daily'd it for the 2-3 years he had it.

I agree standalone isn't for everyone, but it works for me. You don't HAVE to know how to tune your own vehicle just because you have standalone.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

The Yoda said:


> I take it to my tuner, who happens to be 6 hours away. Drive it there, drive it back.
> 
> I had a vr6 turbo I sold a few years back and kept in touch with the owner for the time he had it. He never changed the setup or motor. Same tune and daily'd it for the 2-3 years he had it.
> 
> I agree standalone isn't for everyone, but it works for me. You don't HAVE to know how to tune your own vehicle just because you have standalone.


...i.completley understand that sem is not for everyone... Im just not sure other people understand exactly what comes with the whole package... I.e. who is going to install it... Who is going to tune it... How much it will cost for the system...how much tuning is... The trial and error phase... Going back and forth...

Both setups have their ups and downs... As said before...many times... It all depends on user... Their setup...what they want with it...and budget...

...thats all im really trying to get at...


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

The Yoda said:


> I take it to my tuner, who happens to be 6 hours away. Drive it there, drive it back.
> 
> I had a vr6 turbo I sold a few years back and kept in touch with the owner for the time he had it. He never changed the setup or motor. Same tune and daily'd it for the 2-3 years he had it.
> 
> I agree standalone isn't for everyone, but it works for me. You don't HAVE to know how to tune your own vehicle just because you have standalone.


If you don't mind sharing, how much did you pay for tuning?

I just want to watch this one, but I think if we're adding multiple sets of chips and injectors together to compare against a standalone price wise, we need to be comparing the sum of (chips and injectors) to the sum of (standalone and tuning)

edit: I want to clarify. If you know how, or have the time to figure it out, tuning is free. We know that. But we're talking about people who either don't have the time, or the desire, or doesn't wants to take the risk of blowing it up on their first time trying to tune the ecu to figure out the software end of it. The way I see it, that's pretty much the market segment for chip/flash tunes.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

^^^ thats the main roadblock for me. I am in the military and have two kids so money and time are always tight. Everything I do is based off how much is my time worth.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> ^^^ thats the main roadblock for me. I am in the military and have two kids so money and time are always tight. Everything I do is based off how much is my time worth.


x2....


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

Boost112 said:


> x2....


x3 at the time id have been better off buying a subaru or evo :laugh:


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

Quote Originally Posted by magner View Post
but at least now it costs me less than a dollar for a blank chip and 2 seconds to program it with my $19 programmer when i buy another vr6t 



colovw said:


> Care to elaborate?:thumbup:


sure its as simply as opening a 64.0kb file from my desktop into the programmers software insert a blank chip then click write seconds later i then have another chip-tune its simpler and quicker then printing a picture


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> congrats on changing your sig yet again
> :facepalm:


Thanks It will change steadily from now until ~Nov. so feel free to watch the ET's drop.

Oh and you've made my ignore list. Congrats. You're right in line with the whole group. 11.7-12.8's:laugh:

Goodbye:wave:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> If you don't mind sharing, how much did you pay for tuning?
> 
> I just want to watch this one, but I think if we're adding multiple sets of chips and injectors together to compare against a standalone price wise, we need to be comparing the sum of (chips and injectors) to the sum of (standalone and tuning)
> 
> edit: I want to clarify. If you know how, or have the time to figure it out, tuning is free. We know that. But we're talking about people who either don't have the time, or the desire, or doesn't wants to take the risk of blowing it up on their first time trying to tune the ecu to figure out the software end of it. The way I see it, that's pretty much the market segment for chip/flash tunes.


Upgrading chips is pretty cost effective. They give you 50% off towards a new chip. That or sell it for ~50-70% of what it's worth. 

Like you said, for many TIME is a more valuable resource than money. Chips are at your door in 2 days and in the car running ready to drive to the track in 10 min. That is a HUGE benefit for those with busy lives.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> ^^^ thats the main roadblock for me. I am in the military and have two kids so money and time are always tight. Everything I do is based off how much is my time worth.


Well said. House, wife, family, pets, career(s), continuing education, other hobbies, social events, etc. etc.

Time is the most valuable resource. I may have a couple days a month to play with the car. I wanna be driving/racing it vs. tuning it/fixing it.

The young guys with no responsibilities don't understand that yet, but if they're lucky they will. There's more to life than cars:beer:


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

i think a big reason that stand alone isnt that common on here, is because of lack of comparisons. If there were 'i went from 300 to 375 hp at the same boost levels' threads and things like that, more people would jump ship. But if there isnt a CLEAR reason to switch, most people will never make the financial/time investment.

:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> i think a big reason that stand alone isnt that common on here, is because of lack of comparisons. If there were 'i went from 300 to 375 hp at the same boost levels' threads and things like that, more people would jump ship. But if there isnt a CLEAR reason to switch, most people will never make the financial/time investment.
> 
> :beer:


That and the chip tunes are pretty good. I mean I'm trapping almost 129mph in a ~2700# car with a little to4e (58.6mm turbo). Is someone going faster on that turbo in a similar weight car with standalone? Who are they? How much faster? 

Sure there are faster cars, but the standalone compliments the entire car. Big turbo, 600hp intercooler, roll bar, etc. You need standalone to maximize those setups. A stock block, spacered, stock trans, small turbo setup like mine-the chip is all you need.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> That and the chip tunes are pretty good. I mean I'm trapping almost 129mph in a ~2700# car with a little to4e (58.6mm turbo). Is someone going faster on that turbo in a similar weight car with standalone? Who are they? How much faster?
> 
> Sure there are faster cars, but the standalone compliments the entire car. Big turbo, 600hp intercooler, roll bar, etc. You need standalone to maximize those setups. A stock block, spacered, stock trans, small turbo setup like mine-the chip is all you need.


thats my point though. you're making assumptions. since you've never driven, or seen results from a similar setup but on standalone, you dont know that for sure. I dont think you're off the mark, but again, until there are factual comparisons we're guessing. Those of us who are happy with our tunes, are going to stick with them (although my car was almost built with lugtronic/vems), until we see a good reason to switch.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

TBT-Syncro said:


> i think a big reason that stand alone isnt that common on here


Easy enough to do, the problem is finding a car to do a back to back on. Usually by the time someone is thinking about standalone they're changing things that make the chip STOP working.. bigger injectors are the big culprit. 

If someone has a 42lb/hr car and wants to do this, hit me up. The line forms to the left.eace:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> thats my point though. you're making assumptions. since you've never driven, or seen results from a similar setup but on standalone, you dont know that for sure. I dont think you're off the mark, but again, until there are factual comparisons we're guessing. Those of us who are happy with our tunes, are going to stick with them (although my car was almost built with lugtronic/vems), until we see a good reason to switch.


I didn't make any assumptions. I asked the questions. 

It has been my experience that the faster cars have alot more going than standalone (bigger turbo, built motor/trans, pricey intercooler setup, etc.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I highly doubt I could bolt standalone onto my current setup and make much of a difference. I would need multiple new components to justify it. I could be wrong, but I'll believe it when I see 10 sec. timeslips from guys with 58.6mm inducers in heavy cars.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Easy enough to do, the problem is finding a car to do a back to back on. Usually by the time someone is thinking about standalone they're changing things that make the chip STOP working.. bigger injectors are the big culprit.
> 
> If someone has a 42lb/hr car and wants to do this, hit me up. The line forms to the left.eace:


58.6mm inducer at ~2700lbs on a 12V. As a drag racing guy you know inducer size and weight are criteria in any FI drag class so no nitpicking there.

Bring it. If the chip is that bad then the standalone car should have no problem running over 130mph and destroying my ET.

Make it a Garrett t3/t4 or to4e to be super comparative. Plenty of setups with those turbos.

Oh and when it's over. Add up every second from sourcing parts, to building the ecu, to building/ cutting/splicing a harness, to tuning the car, to the customer driving to and from, to phone calls, emails, etc. etc. and see if all that time was worth the difference in ET.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Easy enough to do, the problem is finding a car to do a back to back on. Usually by the time someone is thinking about standalone they're changing things that make the chip STOP working.. bigger injectors are the big culprit.
> 
> If someone has a 42lb/hr car and wants to do this, hit me up. The line forms to the left.eace:


someone could easily do a lugtronic plug and play setup back to back against a 630 promaf setup, that would probably be a good best case comparison.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Just for shts and giggles (no spring break so I have the time ) I looked at the last 5 years of race ladders 06'-10'. Granted there are people racing who aren't on here, but this gives a general idea.

VR's running quicker than 11.49 that posted turbo size. This list also includes 24V as well.

11.378 T61 R32
11.32 T76
11.317 GT40R
11.21 GT40R 
*11.153 T04E*
11.149 GT35R
11.114 T04Z
11.0 GT40 24V
10.99 T67 
10.5 GT4294R
10.39GT4202
9.750 GT42R

Every single one of those cars ran a turbo that's bigger than mine and most of them are much larger. The only one with the same turbo is in bold and guess what? It's a C2 42# car(350lbs lighter and a .1 better 60').

My point? I don't think it's a coincidence that there's no evidence of standalone cars running faster/quicker on that small of a turbo/non built motor setups. Sure it's bc the standalone guys are all running bigger turbos but that's my point. You need a bigger turbo, IC, etc. etc. to go faster.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

The biggest contributing factor in the power difference between standalone vs chip files is going to be in the timing map, specifically WOT.

You cannot tell me that a generic 42# file has a timing curve that will work better than a standalone setup. A maf can adjust fueling based on load, tps etc. but timing will stay the same.

Ive seen a few digi files from a few different tuners around the world, and guess what? Timing maps are all a few more degrees more conservative than whats usually posted here. 

How do you feel about 8* of timing advance at WOT with only 15 psi? That is the fault of chiptunes

Many years ago when Chris Collier and Jeff Atwood started working together hacking away at Motronic ME5, before C2 (there are posts here) started, they talked about pulling back the timing maps and selling them to the general public so the end user could have a safe turbo tune.

I guess it all boils down to the end user. I remember back in my CIS days, always tinkering with the timing, fueling plate adjustment etc. I like to tinker, always mess around with a setup to try and make it better. A generic tune is not for me.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Am I seeing 8 degrees of timing at WOT trapping 129mph?

I mean the car is making some power for the setup(tseries 58.6mm turbo, 42# inj, ebay intercooler). Anybody with a similar setup on standalone with #'s that can change my mind? Anyone?


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

tbt-syncro said:


> someone could easily do a lugtronic plug and play setup back to back against a 630 promaf setup, that would probably be a good best case comparison.


...i would actually like to see that... That would be a great comparison....


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i've always been able to get chips to work alpha-n without a maf hooked up & got the car to idle, even without an ISV & the cats were fine

i've always rode the knock sensor, like na pump gas & low boost settings no prob
it might hit the knockers hard if i've been sitting or just restarted it, but in the big gears the 1992 **** worked great for me for years, my goals were to eat all the local k03 & it would

you can buy a chip tune that'll blow the ringlands into the oil pan @ 530whp & lets debate a few degrees of timing in a WG forumopcorn:

interesting how sc have less % of increased bar in the manifold than increased % of power on the dyno, not pulling timing of course

& i'd think the oe per cylinder timing stuff would win somewhere down the road, assuming the timing was the issue


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?736260-VR6-Forum-FAQ-s

_
**** Knock Sensor I (G61) And Knock Sensor II (G66) ****_
_
Two knock sensors are used. A knock sensor works like a microphone to 
"listen" for spark knock or detonation._
_When knocking occurs, the ignition timing is retarded until the knocking
is eliminated. Since the knock limit differs from cylinder to cylinder 
and changes within the operating range, knock regulation is done
cylinder
selectively._
_
** Signal usage: **_
_
Knock regulation does not occur until the engine coolant temperature of 
40° C (104° F) is reached. Knock sensor I (G61) monitors cylinders 1,
2,
and 3. Knock sensor II (G66) monitors cylinder s 4, 5 and 6._
_With the aid of the Hall sender signal, the ECU can determine which 
cylinder is knocking. The ignition angle of the knocking cylinder is 
retarded in steps until the knocking stops up to a maximum of 12°._
_If spark knock is still detected, the ECU will retard the ignition 
timing 11° for all cylinders and record a fault.


__If signals from the knock sensors indicate knocking combustion, the
control
unit retards the ignition timing of the knocking cylinder by 3° to max.
12°
until the knocking tendency of the concerned cylinder is reduced._
_When the knocking tendency no longer exists, the ignition timing is
returned
to the nominal value in steps of 0.5°._
_When knocking occurs, the ignition timing can be different for all
cylinders
because of the selective cylinder knock regulation._
_Fluctuations in the idling speed range are compensated by changing the 
ignition timing with the help of idling speed stabilization._
_The control unit receives the idling speed signal from the throttle
valve 
potentiometer._
_Dwell angle regulation guarantees the necessary charging time of the 
ignition coil and, therefore, ignition voltage, regardless of speed and
load conditions._
_Coolant temperature signals are required to correct the ignition timing 
of a cold engine and activate knock regulation._


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i also don't know how many different snails the that chip tune is for, but i'd venture the t04 matches the timing perfectly for slc, a little cooler/bigger & the timing would lack


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Am I seeing 8 degrees of timing at WOT trapping 129mph?
> 
> I mean the car is making some power for the setup(tseries 58.6mm turbo, 42# inj, ebay intercooler). Anybody with a similar setup on standalone with #'s that can change my mind? Anyone?


Honestly by now, I think we all understand that your chip tune setup is excellent. (congradulations).

Honestly, if you want to step outside the box instead of looking for a similar setup with standalone that makes the same numbers/times you do. you should be REALLY looking for other chip tunes which follow you. How many other chip tunes can you show that have similar numbers as you????
What I think personally is you got a 10 percentile setup, what you have works for you, the chipped so happens to be pretty optimized for what your running...... its no doubt that you 'could' get any standalone to run as good if not better than what you are currently achieving... the real question is how many other chip tunes can obtain what your acheiving?

It seems every thread has the same topics for you.. if its either management or intercooler type etc.... it works for you, I believe it, not going to debate it.... but what is the success rate for others?

...its a good point:thumbup:

You are always posting numbers from all over the place... but most of us understand the differences in time slips from different tracks, different enviroments, different weights, tires, gearing... etc....when all these things are different or not listed for comparisons how apple to apple are these comparisons.... maybe you're a REALLY skilled driver 


ps... why does this auto scroll have to be here


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

slcturbo said:


> Just for shts and giggles (no spring break so I have the time ) I looked at the last 5 years of race ladders 06'-10'. Granted there are people racing who aren't on here, but this gives a general idea.
> 
> VR's running quicker than 11.49 that posted turbo size. This list also includes 24V as well.
> 
> ...


You do realize not everyone cares about drag racing......and getting a car to run good at wot is easy
Quarter mile times are TRACTION OFF THE LINE....60 ft times are everything ...bla bla bla

driving the car on the street or a road course is a different world entirely....and the back to back 12v 630 tune is a bad idea chip fans....that tune is garbage..it needs major remapping and would lose that comparison period.....
and if i still owned my 8v car and cared about drag racing it would go that fast on a smaller turbo.......with the AC on and radio blaring my nice's kids bop cd....:laugh:


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

Dear VORTEX fix the auto scroll fail...please:beer:


----------



## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

List of success or failure of chip tunes
1) VRT C2 30lb dizzy, success
2) VRT C2 42lb. OBD2- failure- cure, Lugtronic
3) add to list if you like


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

radoman57 said:


> List of success or failure of chip tunes
> 1) VRT C2 30lb dizzy, success
> 2) VRT C2 42lb. OBD2- failure- cure, Lugtronic


3) VRT C2 30lb. OBD2- success. Just likes to stumble going from cruise to decel and back to cruise, putting around town mostly.


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> 3) VRT C2 30lb. OBD2- success. Just likes to stumble going from cruise to decel and back to cruise, putting around town mostly.


4) VRT C2 36lb. OBD1 fail 9 afr @ idle


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> Upgrading chips is pretty cost effective. They give you 50% off towards a new chip. That or sell it for ~50-70% of what it's worth.
> 
> Like you said, for many TIME is a more valuable resource than money. Chips are at your door in 2 days and in the car running ready to drive to the track in 10 min. That is a HUGE benefit for those with busy lives.


a buddy of mine recently wanted to upgrade from the latest obd1 software to obd2 630cc promaf and c2 uk told him they do not offer discount on trade in anymore 
so i advised him to forget c2 as they are too greedy and arseholes who think they are god 


chips at the door in 2 days  things must have changed i waited 6 months for mine yes 6 months then it would not run right when it turned up :banghead: i returned it for a full refund:thumbdown:


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

magner said:


> 4) VRT C2 36lb. OBD1 fail 9 afr @ idle


 What was the fix? Did you use something else after?


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> What was the fix? Did you use something else after?


i went standalone megasquirt it took 2 weeks to arrive it came pre loaded with a vr6t base map

took 2 hours to wire up all wires were labeled were to go i could not believe when it started first time and i was very happy after fine tuning the injector size setting and leaning in boost afrs :thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Salsa GTI said:


> You do realize not everyone cares about drag racing......and getting a car to run good at wot is easy
> Quarter mile times are TRACTION OFF THE LINE....60 ft times are everything ...bla bla bla
> 
> driving the car on the street or a road course is a different world entirely....and the back to back 12v 630 tune is a bad idea chip fans....that tune is garbage..it needs major remapping and would lose that comparison period.....
> and if i still owned my 8v car and cared about drag racing it would go that fast on a smaller turbo.......with the AC on and radio blaring my nice's kids bop cd....:laugh:


I realize that very well sir. However drag racing is so quantitative and thus makes it easy to compare cars. Slip vs. slip, ET vs. ET, trap vs. trap. Trap speed has nothing to do with 60' which is why I normally reference trap when comparing power/straight line acceleration. It more or less takes the launch out of it.

My car isn't a drag car. It's just something I do with it. $15 and I get to use all that power legally.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Honestly by now, I think we all understand that your chip tune setup is excellent. (congradulations).
> 
> Honestly, if you want to step outside the box instead of looking for a similar setup with standalone that makes the same numbers/times you do. you should be REALLY looking for other chip tunes which follow you. How many other chip tunes can you show that have similar numbers as you????
> What I think personally is you got a 10 percentile setup, what you have works for you, the chipped so happens to be pretty optimized for what your running...... its no doubt that you 'could' get any standalone to run as good if not better than what you are currently achieving... the real question is how many other chip tunes can obtain what your acheiving?
> ...



I use my car as an example simply because it's a setup that's pretty common. There are many 42# cars running 11.1-11.5's. I can think of 6-10 right off the bat. Numbers are good. People can say anything. Back it up with something objective.

I also use it when other people bring it up. Which is quite often for some reason.

Not that skilled of a driver:laugh: Just a well thought out, simple, cost effective, logical setup to achieve my goals. If people want to continue to tell me I did it wrong I'll continue to explain why for my goals I think i did it right


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> 4) VRT C2 36lb. OBD1 fail 9 afr @ idle



I've heard of a few issues with that tune. 

As for the chip credit. 1) Not familiar with C2 UK 2) The chip has to be on the encryption board to receive the credit so pre encrypt board chips are not honored. It's unfortunate but blame your peers that think it's cool to rip off someone elses work by burning a chip.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

radoman57 said:


> List of success or failure of chip tunes
> 1) VRT C2 30lb dizzy, success
> 2) VRT C2 42lb. OBD2- failure- cure, Lugtronic
> 3) add to list if you like


Literally the only non kid that I know of that had issues w/ the 42#. Still baffles me.

Lugtronic was the cure, but just curious.

1) What was the time frame from when the lugtronic was ordered to when the car was up and running OE well?

2) Any idea of total cost and total time spent email, phone, tuning, retuning, etc. 

In the end I'm sure your car runs great and you are thrilled, but what did it really take to get there?


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> I've heard of a few issues with that tune.
> 
> As for the chip credit. 1) Not familiar with C2 UK 2) The chip has to be on the encryption board to receive the credit so pre encrypt board chips are not honored. It's unfortunate but blame your peers that think it's cool to rip off someone elses work by burning a chip.





1. the chip is obd1 v3.6 its the latest 36lb and its on an encryption board 
2. maybe they changed this offer because the encryption board is hacked and can be read with an avr interface 

3. rip off someone elses work i am unsure what you mean ? are talking about when jeff from c2 used eip tune for chris to test it with the ditched fmu and used larger injectors and maf only ? or when they were reading nos tunes to see what timing they was running :laugh: 
or do you mean ripping vw original software bye editing the rev limit fueling and timing ? 
4. or are you saying i am ripping c2 of bye editing there software that i have payed for to run right on my car ?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> 1. the chip is obd1 v3.6 its the latest 36lb and its on an encryption board
> 2. maybe they changed this offer because the encryption board is hacked and can be read with an avr interface
> 
> 3. rip off someone elses work i am unsure what you mean ? are talking about when jeff from c2 used eip tune for chris to test it with the ditched fmu and used larger injectors and maf only ? or when they were reading nos tunes to see what timing they was running :laugh:
> ...


I'm not saying you did anything. I also have no idea or desire to know of any EIP C2 soap opera. If however you copied a C2 chip for your own use or for resale then yes I'm talking to you.

What I'm saying is pre encryption board chips were not eligible for the 50% off credit because they could more easily have been copies and thus not purchased from C2 in the first place. That was ~1-2yrs. ago. Maybe something has changed.


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> I'm not saying you did anything. I also have no idea or desire to know of any EIP C2 soap opera. If however you copied a C2 chip for your own use or for resale then yes I'm talking to you.
> 
> What I'm saying is pre encryption board chips were not eligible for the 50% off credit because they could more easily have been copies and thus not purchased from C2 in the first place. That was ~1-2yrs. ago. Maybe something has changed.



it seems you only hear what you want to hear are you a female ? 
i am guilty i edit the c2 file to run correct on my car.i payed good money for it and the file was incorrect .id been ripped off 
if i buy a sri and a bolt hole will not line up i will elongate it so it fits 
if i buy a pair of jeans that legs are too long but my arse looks good in them i will turn them up


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

From a guy i know :

5) C2 36# OBD2, ran awful rich, timing all over the place, impossible to get trough emissions, CO was more than 10 times to high.

From what i understould.
Vr6specialist.com did some basic tunes for eip, eip messed it up, everybody else modded tunes from either eip or the vr6 spec.
You guy's may not have heard from the vr6spec. but i know thats he's years ahead from all the rest

I'm the only nuttcase around here not running his tune


----------



## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> What I'm saying is pre encryption board chips were not eligible for the 50% off credit because they could more easily have been copies and thus not purchased from C2 in the first place. That was ~1-2yrs. ago. Maybe something has changed.


Something must have changed along the way; I was able to trade in my 30# chip (sans encryption board, but legit C2) for the 42# chip (also sans encryption board) a few years back, and I received the discount...


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

this one i have is legit c2 with encryption. here is a pic anyone want it free ?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> it seems you only hear what you want to hear are you a female ?
> i am guilty i edit the c2 file to run correct on my car.i payed good money for it and the file was incorrect .id been ripped off
> if i buy a sri and a bolt hole will not line up i will elongate it so it fits
> if i buy a pair of jeans that legs are too long but my arse looks good in them i will turn them up


Please don't reduce the thread to an 8 yr. old schoolyard insult fest. It's a waste of time. 

Modify for your own use if you bought the chip is absolutely acceptable.

Copy a friends chip for your own use or resale? Not acceptable.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

BLSport said:


> Something must have changed along the way; I was able to trade in my 30# chip (sans encryption board, but legit C2) for the 42# chip (also sans encryption board) a few years back, and I received the discount...


Maybe right before they adopted that policy. Come to think of it this was only a year ago. They would not accept my 30# dizzy chip purchased 3-4 yrs. ago due to it being pre encryption board. No biggie. Sold it for $150, bought the 42# for $350 and a used MAF housing for $70. $270 total.

If I wanna go to the 60#. Bought that chip on sale for $150 and I'll sell the 42# for at least that so break even. Likely a break even on the injectors as well. So I'm looking at the $350 pro maf and air filter $50, less my maf, housing, and air filter. Probably cost me no more than ~$200 net to go 60# tuning wise.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> Copy a friends chip for your own use or resale? Not acceptable.


Seriously, who would do that. :thumbdown:

In other news, got another car running on standalone last night. Better then the cis chip it had


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> In other news, got another car running on standalone last night. Better then the cis chip it had


No way


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Interesting stance on the matter.. especially considering you wanted me to copy your 30# chip before you sold it.
> 
> In other news, got another car running on standalone last night. Better then the cis chip it had



well done :laugh:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nevermind, there is no way Steve tried to copy software.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> If he said it it must be true


maybe best sorting out in pm (if not on your ignore list :facepalm


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

magner said:


> maybe best sorting out in pm (if not on your ignore list :facepalm


I think all of vortx will be blank for him. Everyone hates him


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Internets, serious business....:facepalm: Grudge racing does make for an exciting night though....


----------



## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

opcorn:


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

dubbinmk2 said:


> opcorn:


...Thanks.
This thread was good until a few pages ago. This has been an ongoing battle on vwvortex since 2002? and I just wish that people would be mature in there discussions.
It benefits no one to throw around petty insults.

state the facts and move on.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

i got a question.

i've been thinking about deleting my EIP exhaust manifold, my hotside is to close to my driveshaft and it's frying my axle cover?(don't know how it's called in english) and building my own highmount (partialy) tubular. Using the stock cast mani and then routing upwards.
Now correct me if i'm wrong but would it be wise to place the EGT bung in the passengers side pipe?
On that side you have 2 cillinders from to back row comming out, so i'd be more likely to detect high egt's on that side? right?


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I am no expert here, but from what I have been told you want it prior to the turbo but at a place where all the runners meet. I don't see a problem with what you want to do unless there is a lean condition on the other side, then your egt sensor would not see it. I have mine just after the turbo so it reads maybe about 200 degrees lower than pre turbo.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nevermind, there is no way Steve tried to copy software.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

ZING!


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nevermind, there is no way Steve tried to copy software.


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Lets keep this to a standalone/chip thing. 

Im really new to this ms thing, but I got to say Im not sure why everyone else hasnt done this yet (within reason,obd2 cars no apply here).

Within 5 minutes I had my car idling on its own, stable though a bit higher than I like. I had some ae enrichment issues that using megalogviewer I was able to clean up by just looking at a log and using ve anaylze

Right now I think Im getting spark blowout or something, not really sure what to look for in the logs when this happens.

Either way I kick myself in the ass for not doing this earlier. SLC have you ever owned a car with standalone? You seem to be a pretty smart fellow so the whole tuning thing could be done in short time. Paul has posted a few screen shots of his timing maps so there is plenty of 'basemap get you running' info out there.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

edited for sake of thread:thumbup:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nevermind there's no way Steve tried to copy software.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

lol
i'll say it again
the c2 OBD2 42# chip i have in a customers car works great but runs a bit lean under boost. This car has extra's like h20 inj and cams and a sri.
My car is equipped with lugtronic and I love it. I have tuned it to idle somewhat properly with the 288 cams i have and i have no tuning experience. Can't wait to have it on the streets to log some pulls and have Kevin remote tune it.
Apples and oranges for 2 cars that are apples and oranges


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Nevermind there's no way Steve tried to copy software.


Misunderstandings happen. At least you were big enough to admit it and clear it up.


----------



## A2 16v Gli (Oct 14, 2002)

Who the Fuuck Cares if he did try to copy or didnt. people download/copy/steal shiit every day. welcome to 2011. 

/thread


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

A2 16v Gli said:


> Who the Fuuck Cares if he did try to copy or didnt. people download/copy/steal shiit every day. welcome to 2011.
> 
> /thread


I care because I don't believe it's right nor do I care what other people do. I look in the mirror everyday at my face. What other people see is their problem.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

yeah if i ever scrape enough $ together for 2 new tires, i'll probably just rotate & put 13s on the back & MS this year...maybe that's what the guys running two different types of wheels have...


----------



## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

slcturbo said:


> I care because I don't believe it's right nor do I care what other people do. I look in the mirror everyday at my face. What other people see is their problem.


I AGREE....if you want to chip tune.....buy or make software to talk motronic ECU speek.....tune and burn and market your own software......Dont just rip off others work...:facepalm:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Salsa GTI said:


> I AGREE....if you want to chip tune.....buy or make software to talk motronic ECU speek.....tune and burn and market your own software......Dont just rip off others work...:facepalm:


Amen. The long term implications of doing this in any business flat out suck not to mention your ripping off the person who owns the rights to the product.

Look what it's done to the music and film industry. They're both all but a joke. Crap, gaga garbage, and cgi everything. There's no $$ in it anymore so industries don't put any $$ behind it. When did all that start? Right when the internet exploded ~ mid 90's. Don't pay for things you like and eventually companies stop producing things you like. You fk yourself in the long run.

If someone makes a product that's worth ripping off then it's worth paying for. A chip that'll let my car run low 11's for $350? That's a bargain if I ever saw one.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

for anyone who's interested in tuning their car, this book is a great starting point. (most of the books in this series are quite good)

http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Management-Systems-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760315825


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> Amen. The long term implications of doing this in any business flat out suck not to mention your ripping off the person who owns the rights to the product.
> 
> Look what it's done to the music and film industry. They're both all but a joke. Crap, gaga garbage, and cgi everything. There's no $$ in it anymore so industries don't put any $$ behind it. When did all that start? Right when the internet exploded ~ mid 90's. Don't pay for things you like and eventually companies stop producing things you like. You fk yourself in the long run.
> 
> If someone makes a product that's worth ripping off then it's worth paying for. A chip that'll let my car run low 11's for $350? That's a bargain if I ever saw one.


hehe so any chance you can email me your copy of the 30# tune then? i will trade you for 42# :sly::laugh: :laugh: 

(relax tiger i am joking i can tune my own ecu )


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> hehe so any chance you can email me your copy of the 30# tune then? i will trade you for 42# :sly::laugh: :laugh:
> 
> (relax tiger i am joking i can tune my own ecu )


:laugh: I've never been excited 

30# chip is in NY along with my 30# injectors. That bought most of my 42# chip which I'm not selling(it's too good).

I could learn to tune my ecu too. I just let C2 do it for me since 1)I don't have the time and 2) the 42# allows me to run as fast as I'm allowed to go.

Maybe you can tune my ecu when I finish school if I do a race car. CPA's make more than tuners so it would make sense for me to just pay for that:beer:

Lastly, if you read between the lines I think there's someone else you could razz that actually burns chips.:sly:


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> ^^^ thats the main roadblock for me. I am in the military and have two kids so money and time are always tight. Everything I do is based off how much is my time worth.


The answer is very simple. You load up all your software into a laptop and bring the car to someone who tunes cars. This is what subaru,honda,and evo guys do regularly. There are alot of fast cars out there and the owners did not do the tuning on those cars.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> :laugh: I've never been excited
> 
> 30# chip is in NY along with my 30# injectors. That bought most of my 42# chip which I'm not selling(it's too good).
> 
> ...


You need to find another thread.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> You need to find another thread.


Post reported to mods. 

If someone wants to address me directly then I'll respond.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Post reported to mods.
> 
> If someone wants to address me directly then I'll respond.


You have come in this thread and picked a fight with everyone who doesnt do it your way. You have contributed nothing positive to the tread and I stick by what I said. You should find another thread.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> You have come in this thread and picked a fight with everyone who doesnt do it your way. You have contributed nothing positive to the tread and I stick by what I said. You should find another thread.


Post reported again. 

I'm not picking a fight with anyone sir. Please stop the direct attacks. They are sidetracking the threads.


----------



## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

TBT-Syncro said:


> for anyone who's interested in tuning their car, this book is a great starting point. (most of the books in this series are quite good)
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Management-Systems-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760315825


Its a good read :beer:


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Lugtronic will hopefully be installed tomorrow running on basemap. 

Taking the Corrado to be tuned next Sunday (20th). Going to overlay my 630 ProMaf runs on top of the Lugtronic pulls. Should be interesting! And help this debate.

Same car, same dyno, only a software change. Air temps will be ~10 degrees of the first dyno. :thumbup:


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> :laugh: I've never been excited
> 
> 30# chip is in NY along with my 30# injectors. That bought most of my 42# chip which I'm not selling(it's too good).
> 
> ...


Bringing up that your going to be a CPA has nothing to do with this thread. Personally at my job the pay sucks, but I like what I do which what counts the most in the long run.

Who honestly cares who makes more money.


----------



## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

thecorradokid24 said:


> lugtronic will hopefully be installed tomorrow running on basemap.
> 
> Taking the corrado to be tuned next sunday (20th). Going to overlay my 630 promaf runs on top of the lugtronic pulls. Should be interesting! And help this debate.
> 
> Same car, same dyno, only a software change. Air temps will be ~10 degrees of the first dyno. :thumbup:



...i would really like to see the overlay... Please post the dyno when/if you do this...


Tia....


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Boost112 said:


> ...i would really like to see the overlay... Please post the dyno when/if you do this...
> 
> 
> Tia....


It will happen next Sunday (20th) I will post it up here for sure.:thumbup:


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

That will be some cool data.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

As kevin would say" your results may vary" 

whos doing your tuning?


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

TIGninja said:


> As kevin would say" your results may vary"
> 
> whos doing your tuning?


Kevin Black


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Kevin Black


This will be good


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

PhQ her & PHQ2...


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Bringing up that your going to be a CPA has nothing to do with this thread. Personally at my job the pay sucks, but I like what I do which what counts the most in the long run.
> 
> Who honestly cares who makes more money.


Neither does the BS about me asking someone to burn a chip or the guy that brought it up again to try and bust my balls. 

Why not quote their posts and tell them the same:thumbup:

I don't care how much money anyone makes. What I'm saying is unless you really enjoyed the "thing" we're talking about why would someone shovel their own sidewalk that makes $100/hr when they can pay someone $20/hr to do it. The "smart" one doesn't do everything himself. He does what he's good at and pays people to do everything else.

Does Steve Jobs at Apple take out the trash or fix the toilet? I'm not Steve jobs and tuning isn't fixing a toilet so I'm obviously exaggerating, but the point is still valid. You tune your own car. Great. Maybe the guy that pays to have his tuned performs brain surgery 5 days a week at his day job.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Why cant you just leave this thread alone unless you have something positive to contribute?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Why cant you just leave this thread alone unless you have something positive to contribute?


I contributed plenty including all the positives of running a chip vs. standalone. I'm chip fan and for some reason that really bothers you. That's a shame, but we're a big market because chips offer benefits that standalone cannot(Price,2 day lead time, 10 min install, no tuning required initially nor after mods, and obd2 emissions compliant). We aren't going anywhere:beer:

The sidetracking is unfortunate and not intended, but talk to the people that started it. Why didn't you quote need-a-life and tell him to stop the sidetrack? Because he's a standalone fanboy. That's why. Gotcha


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> I contributed plenty including all the positives of running a chip vs. standalone. I'm chip fan and for some reason that really bothers you. That's a shame, but we're a big market because chips offer benefits that standalone cannot(Price,2 day lead time, 10 min install, no tuning required initially nor after mods, and obd2 emissions compliant). We aren't going anywhere:beer:


You do realize your car is the exception, not the rule, correct?


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> :laugh: I've never been excited
> 
> 30# chip is in NY along with my 30# injectors. That bought most of my 42# chip which I'm not selling(it's too good).
> 
> ...


you forget c2 chip dont work for everyone 
tuning my ecu is not my trade its a hobby i was forced into because the 10min plug and play chip was :bs:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> I contributed plenty including all the positives of running a chip vs. standalone. I'm chip fan and for some reason that really bothers you. That's a shame, but we're a big market because chips offer benefits that standalone cannot(Price,2 day lead time, 10 min install, no tuning required initially nor after mods, and obd2 emissions compliant). We aren't going anywhere:beer:
> 
> The sidetracking is unfortunate and not intended, but talk to the people that started it. Why didn't you quote need-a-life and tell him to stop the sidetrack? Because he's a standalone fanboy. That's why. Gotcha


You have mentioned that many times, you have made your point. Why are you still posting in this thread? Standalone fanboy? You complain magner is taking personal attacks at you, yet its okay for you to do so? Paul retracted his statements/accusations yet you continue on with them.

Anyways thanks to Paul taking a quick review over my ms settings. After a few tweaks Ive made based on his suggestions the car runs better now than what it ever did before, and I can safely put my foot in it under boost.

Scanning via OBD2 for codes/faults is fine, but no way can it beat datalogging and seeing the fault in action.


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

i'm with SLCTURBO lol

:beer:can we get back on track with this thread? way i look at if the chip can support 400 WHP why go standalone? chip is easier and faster to install, time is money. Unless you want more option like two step, boost control etc, etc. Also for a daily car you can't go wrong with a chip set and forget it type thing. Unless you have some crazy setup and want crazy features I see no need for standalone these days, technology has changed so much in the last 10 years it's almost shocking,.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

A2rebirth said:


> i'm with SLCTURBO lol
> 
> :beer:can we get back on track with this thread? way i look at if the chip can support 400 WHP why go standalone? chip is easier and faster to install, time is money. Unless you want more option like two step, boost control etc, etc. Also for a daily car you can't go wrong with a chip set and forget it type thing. Unless you have some crazy setup and want crazy features I see no need for standalone these days, technology has changed so much in the last 10 years it's almost shocking,.


Why would you limit yourself to 400whp when for not much more you can get something that has no limits? And do keep in mind that only some people get 400whp out of their cars so your already in a gamble situation. The other option is to chip tune the car the right way and tune the car without guessing.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

A2rebirth said:


> i'm with SLCTURBO lol
> 
> :beer:can we get back on track with this thread? way i look at if the chip can support 400 WHP why go standalone? chip is easier and faster to install, time is money. Unless you want more option like two step, boost control etc, etc. Also for a daily car you can't go wrong with a chip set and forget it type thing. Unless you have some crazy setup and want crazy features I see no need for standalone these days, technology has changed so much in the last 10 years it's almost shocking,.


if you want 400whp and a chip works for you then yes chip tune is for you :wave:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

magner said:


> if you want 400whp and a chip works for you then yes chip tune is for you :wave:


Exactly. One of the problems is when you get the chip tune your stuck at that level. When its time to move up to the next level then you have to start over again.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhdodbCZf_M


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

http://www.moates.net/ostrich-20-th.../ostrich-20-the-new-breed-p-169.html?cPath=95


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Exactly. One of the problems is when you get the chip tune your stuck at that level. When its time to move up to the next level then you have to start over again.


i've driven my chip tune with no boost, 8 psi, 13 psi-20psi. I'd turn it up higher, but at this level, my car destroys most cars and transmissions (it likes stripping gears). It's ran perfectly regardless of what spring/boost i'm running. No need to re-tune.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> i've driven my chip tune with no boost, 8 psi, 13 psi-20psi. I'd turn it up higher, but at this level, my car destroys most cars and transmissions (it likes stripping gears). It's ran perfectly regardless of what spring/boost i'm running. No need to re-tune.


Congrats. You have gambled and won.Your car runs good.Now could you have more power by pushing the engine less? Yes you could.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Now could you have more power by pushing the engine less? Yes you could.


could, as in maybe. which of course means maybe not.

so by spending more money i MAY have a car that makes more power, may make less, may not drive as well. may get ****tier mileage, or may cause babies to cry. lots of maybes, but no definites. it's funny that there are people in this thread talking about stand alone being the ideal solution, when at the same time they have other threads on this forum about their car/tune not working properly. lol

on a side note. we'll be tuning my buddies twin 6265 ls2 in a couple of weeks. i'll post up dynos and charts once its done. 8*1200 CC injectors should be enough fuel to make some good numbers.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> could, as in maybe. which of course means maybe not.
> 
> so by spending more money i MAY have a car that makes more power, may make less, may not drive as well. may get ****tier mileage, or may cause babies to cry. lots of maybes, but no definites. it's funny that there are people in this thread talking about stand alone being the ideal solution, when at the same time they have other threads on this forum about their car/tune not working properly. lol
> 
> on a side note. we'll be tuning my buddies twin 6265 ls2 in a couple of weeks. i'll post up dynos and charts once its done. 8*1200 CC injectors should be enough fuel to make some good numbers.


False on everything. A tune that is tuned for the car by a tuner that knows how to tune will always run better then a off the shelf tune like you have.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

TBT-Syncro said:


> i've driven my chip tune with no boost, 8 psi, 13 psi-20psi. I'd turn it up higher, but at this level, my car destroys most cars and transmissions (it likes stripping gears). It's ran perfectly regardless of what spring/boost i'm running. No need to re-tune.


i read some were the pro-maf tune require an adjustable fpr to alter afr in boost ????


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

TBT-Syncro said:


> i've driven my chip tune with no boost, 8 psi, 13 psi-20psi. I'd turn it up higher, but at this level, my car destroys most cars and transmissions (it likes stripping gears). It's ran perfectly regardless of what spring/boost i'm running. No need to re-tune.


Of course its going to fuel correctly if they load maps are calibrated correctly. The biggest advantage to standalone here would be the adjustability with the timing maps where they can be setup exactly for your car. 

I guarantee there is a bit more power available with a correct dyno tune. This dyno sheet proves it.
Thread Here.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> You do realize your car is the exception, not the rule, correct?


Totally disagree. I can't speak for all tunes, but cars run very well on the 42# obd2 VR tune the overwhelming majority of the time. My 30# dizzy was ~good as well.

I think a well maintained 18 yr. old car built by someone that knows what they're doing is the exception around here. It's not a coincidence that both my tunes ran well:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> you forget c2 chip dont work for everyone
> tuning my ecu is not my trade its a hobby i was forced into because the 10min plug and play chip was :bs:


OK. I can't argue with your results.

However you can't argue with all the cars that are running well on C2 chips. 

I have a friend with an rx-7 on standalone that runs like garbage. So what.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> You have mentioned that many times, you have made your point. Why are you still posting in this thread? Standalone fanboy? You complain magner is taking personal attacks at you, yet its okay for you to do so? Paul retracted his statements/accusations yet you continue on with them.
> 
> Anyways thanks to Paul taking a quick review over my ms settings. After a few tweaks Ive made based on his suggestions the car runs better now than what it ever did before, and I can safely put my foot in it under boost.
> 
> Scanning via OBD2 for codes/faults is fine, but no way can it beat datalogging and seeing the fault in action.


Whatever man. The bias in this thread by 3 or 4 is ridiculous. People pushing product and other people kissin azz so they can get help tuning their cars

You can be a fan of standalone, but why bash chips? They work very well for alot of people. 

It's a comparison thread. If you don't wanna hear the other side then take out vs. pnp from the thread title.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

A2rebirth said:


> i'm with SLCTURBO lol
> 
> :beer:can we get back on track with this thread? way i look at if the chip can support 400 WHP why go standalone? chip is easier and faster to install, time is money. Unless you want more option like two step, boost control etc, etc. Also for a daily car you can't go wrong with a chip set and forget it type thing. Unless you have some crazy setup and want crazy features I see no need for standalone these days, technology has changed so much in the last 10 years it's almost shocking,.


Well said.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Whatever man. The bias in this thread by 3 or 4 is ridiculous. People pushing product and other people kissin azz so they can get help tuning their cars
> 
> You can be a fan of standalone, but why bash chips? They work very well for alot of people.
> 
> It's a comparison thread. If you don't wanna hear the other side then take out vs. pnp from the thread title.


All boils down to purpose I guess. My daily is obd2 and lugtronic is a bit out of my budget. Around here we *must* pass obd2 readiness to pass inspection. I know people who know people and I can get around that but its a hassle. 

For a daily its not a bad idea imho, but chasing timeslips and making big power with an 'off the shelf' chip tune is a recipe for disaster in my opinion of course. Relying (not a dig at you or other chip users) upon a knock sensor to prevent blowing your engine from too much advance, and a narrowband 02 sensor for fueling:banghead: is no good.

Id rather rely on data feedback/logging and a couple keystrokes with a wideband.:thumbup:

A2rebirth/dubbinmk2 please go back to the mk2 forum from which you were banned for stirring up ****. Your post lack anything other something a bench racer would state and is nothing more than general forum knowledge.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Totally disagree. I can't speak for all tunes, but cars run very well on the 42# obd2 VR tune the overwhelming majority of the time. My 30# dizzy was ~good as well.
> 
> I think a well maintained 18 yr. old car built by someone that knows what they're doing is the exception around here. It's not a coincidence that both my tunes ran well:thumbup:


I ran 42# software and It ran like ****. I switched chips 4 times. Once cause it failed. Switched to a buddies older c2 revision and the car ran like a dream. However C2 told me that they don't keep older revs. I just had no luck with them, others have such as you.

My car runs OK on the 630 with promaf tune they have. But I bought lugtronic because it does more to make the car run well and put the power to the ground. Ramping boost, boost by gear exc.

Chip it if you want to get it close and are happy with it. Standalone if you want to dial it in.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> All boils down to purpose I guess. My daily is obd2 and lugtronic is a bit out of my budget. Around here we *must* pass obd2 readiness to pass inspection. I know people who know people and I can get around that but its a hassle.
> 
> For a daily its not a bad idea imho, but chasing timeslips and making big power with an 'off the shelf' chip tune is a recipe for disaster in my opinion of course. Relying (not a dig at you or other chip users) upon a knock sensor to prevent blowing your engine from too much advance, and a narrowband 02 sensor for fueling:banghead: is no good.
> 
> ...


Good points. I have a wideband although it does not control fueling. Not arguing, but are 42# cars blowing up? I probably have 200 passes on my chip tunes. A/F is steady. 



thecorradokid24 said:


> I ran 42# software and It ran like ****. I switched chips 4 times. Once cause it failed. Switched to a buddies older c2 revision and the car ran like a dream. However C2 told me that they don't keep older revs. I just had no luck with them, others have such as you.
> 
> My car runs OK on the 630 with promaf tune they have. But I bought lugtronic because it does more to make the car run well and put the power to the ground. Ramping boost, boost by gear exc.
> 
> Chip it if you want to get it close and are happy with it. Standalone if you want to dial it in.


Exactly. If a chip works for you and gives you what you want then why not? I know too many cars running 11.1-11.5's reliably with OE driveability on the 42# obd2 12v chip. That's proven. If some had a compatability issue then I believe them and that sucks, but it doesn't change what others have accomplished with a $350 chip and a 10min install. 

Wanna go real, real fast? Go standalone from the start. However to make that argument you better have these to go with it.
-Built motor
-built trans
-roll bar/cage
-needed safety equipment over 135mph
-Big turbo, intercooler, etc. etc.
-A daily because standalone wont pass emissions on a 96' and up

Without those the car wont be 1) reliable 2) legal or 3) safe. Standalone only gives you the capability. 

I'm saying all that and no one has even pushed the 630cc file at the track. Maybe I will. If I run mid 10's will people on standalone that are slower still tell me I'm doing it wrong? :facepalm:


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> OK. I can't argue with your results.
> 
> However you can't argue with all the cars that are running well on C2 chips.
> 
> I have a friend with an rx-7 on standalone that runs like garbage. So what.


your are right i cant argue with the cars that are running well on c2 

maybe one day i hope your rx7 friend will find out what his problem is and fix it with a few clicks if it is the tune.if not he may have to take it to someone with more of a clue than him


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> your are right i cant argue with the cars that are running well on c2
> 
> maybe one day i hope your rx7 friend will find out what his problem is and fix it with a few clicks if it is the tune.if not he may have to take it to someone with more of a clue than him


:beer:Agreed

This is only one comparison, but look at the difference. 2 guys that don't know how to tune cars. I went chip and have been having a ball running 11's at the track for 2-3 years now. His car smells like crap, runs like crap, and hasn't been to the track bc it isn't tuned right. His is a street car, no roll bar etc. In his case if a chip were offered for his car like it was for mine he would have been better off going that route.

Everything isn't for everybody. IMO chip and standalone customers are two totally different market segments. Anybody telling you that either one is better for all customers is someone you don't want to be taking advice from. I would never rec. a chip setup for a serious drag racer looking to compete in events nor would I rec. standalone to a kid that can't tune a car and is just looking to burn some tires on the street or run 11's-12's at the track (provided a chip is made that will let him do that).

For those who can remove their bias it becomes pretty clear which route someone should go once they give their setup info, goals, budget, time, ability/willingness to tuneeace:


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

Dave926 said:


> All boils down to purpose I guess. My daily is obd2 and lugtronic is a bit out of my budget. Around here we *must* pass obd2 readiness to pass inspection. I know people who know people and I can get around that but its a hassle.
> 
> For a daily its not a bad idea imho, but chasing timeslips and making big power with an 'off the shelf' chip tune is a recipe for disaster in my opinion of course. Relying (not a dig at you or other chip users) upon a knock sensor to prevent blowing your engine from too much advance, and a narrowband 02 sensor for fueling:banghead: is no good.
> 
> ...



f..uck you i'll post where i want and i'll do what i want.

continue on


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Wanna go real, real fast? Go standalone from the start. However to make that argument you better have these to go with it.
> -Built motor
> -built trans
> -roll bar/cage
> ...



Good thing I have all those things then:laugh:. Also I just passed emission for the last time. Next time I register my Corrado it will have Historic tags. No worries there.:wave:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> Why didn't you quote need-a-life and tell him to stop the sidetrack?


I'm glad your maturity is still shining through.  :banghead:

In any case, I know quite a few people that have had trouble with the "30#" setup on dizzy cars. It's *very* hit or miss. I know Knezo's car was over a few times trying to work through issues with it when he had the Vortech on it and I remember when McNair had trouble with the same BS with that and then with the turbo setup. It'll only run right when everything is nearly exactly how it is as the car it was tuned on. Those OBD1 "tunes" are very picky. It's one of the reasons I ran an old version of GIAC for so long, because it worked. Tried quite a few other ones, and none ran the car that well. See the last page on how that one turned out vs standalone tuned on the exact same day. 

I'm going to throw standalone on the daily here soon, maybe I'll post an update on how easy it was and how much better gas mileage I can get... and how the CEL went out. eace:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Without those the car wont be 1) reliable 2) legal or 3) safe. Standalone only gives you the capability.


Total and complete lie. Saying things like this is why people on this forum get down on you so hard. Why are you trying to argue with me especially about chip tuning anyways? Your in way over your head.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

A2rebirth said:


> f..uck you i'll post where i want and i'll do what i want.
> 
> continue on


If you have nothing to contribute here then there is no reason for you to post. Until you have real world experience with factual statements and not some thing you read on a forum then please leave.

I've had experience with c2 stuff. It was okay but it had its quirks. Random stalls, finicky nature of MAF placement, and lean fueling under boost (12.8:1) made me feel uneasy. The car drove great otherwise. It was a friend's car that we put together, and if I knew now what I knew then it would have ran ms2/extra.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> Total and complete lie. Saying things like this is why people on this forum get down on you so hard. Why are you trying to argue with me especially about chip tuning anyways? Your in way over your head.


Standalone is NOT legal in my state. If you can get a stock/chipped ecu to run on your set-up to pass inspection then you're pretty lucky.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Standalone is NOT legal in my state. If you can get a stock/chipped ecu to run on your set-up to pass inspection then you're pretty lucky.


And 95% of the chipped cars have zero chance of ever passing without some major messing around. In this case its just as easy to unplug your PNP and put stock injectors and maf back in the car. All the propaganda that is being pushed in this thread by the pro off the shelf chip guys is just a big load of BS and really isnt in valid in the real world.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> And 95% of the chipped cars have zero chance of ever passing without some major messing around. In this case its just as easy to unplug your PNP and put stock injectors and maf back in the car. All the propaganda that is being pushed in this thread by the pro off the shelf chip guys is just a big load of BS and really isnt in valid in the real world.


lol. i know of a few dozen cars that have passed BC emissions on chip tunes with absolutely no problems (5 minute rolling road test up to 160 km/h, various load states, etc). There is absolutely no reason that a chipped tune wont pass with flying colours.

the only propaganda is coming from the guy who has no clue about what a chip tune is capable of (you proved this when you stated that you thought we had to run avcr).


----------



## PSUCorrado (Sep 11, 2006)

TIGninja said:


> And 95% of the chipped cars have zero chance of ever passing without some major messing around. In this case its just as easy to unplug your PNP and put stock injectors and maf back in the car. All the propaganda that is being pushed in this thread by the pro off the shelf chip guys is just a big load of BS and really isnt in valid in the real world.


What? My chipped g60 passed the sniffer no problem, and so did my 1.8t with 850cc injectors running on megasquirt.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

TBT-Syncro said:


> lol. i know of a few dozen cars that have passed BC emissions on chip tunes with absolutely no problems (5 minute rolling road test up to 160 km/h, various load states, etc). There is absolutely no reason that a chipped tune wont pass with flying colours.
> 
> the only propaganda is coming from the guy who has no clue about what a chip tune is capable of (you proved this when you stated that you thought we had to run avcr).


Ok big guy tell me about whats done on the c2 chip files. Yea I thought so you dont have a clue because you dont know a thing about chip tuning and what its capable of LOL. I have custom tuned alot of cars and you would be amazed the difference a very small amount has on actual running of the car.You sir are the one who does not know what you speak.

I am very much all for chip tuning. The problem is the ignorance in the ways VW people do this. Its all about who can scream the hardest and when it comes right down to it they are soooooooo far behind the rest of the car tuning comunity. Alot of this has to do with the foolish ideas that are spewed around in this forum. In other forums they have discussions on manipulating the chip file to do the things they want.

Launch control? Yes you could easily do this with your stock ECU but you know it all clowns will never be able to do this because all you want to do is argue that your off the shelf chip tune is the best thing since the wheel.

So all the chip tuning clowns Im calling you out right now. What have you done for the chip tuning guys here besides come in this thread and talk crap? 

Take a look around you. There is not an aftermarket tuning group that tunes like this anymore. Care to guess why? Yes because its obsolete thats why. Anyone who can look beyond the E-thugging morons in this form can see that. The excuse has always been that this isnt available for VW but if they could take some of their time away from trying to bully around anyone on this forum who doesnt do things their way and look its actually there (hell I posted a basic how to in this forum already).

And for everyone else here. There "chip tuning experts" here dont know a thing about tuning and have been just spewing out this BS for so long it has almost become truth here. The truth is that yes you can have a custom tune in your car that runs great and costs less then a off the shelf tune. The people here insisting the off the shelf chip tune is the only way are the same fools that would still to this day insist that the world was infact flat.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Good thing I have all those things then:laugh:. Also I just passed emission for the last time. Next time I register my Corrado it will have Historic tags. No worries there.:wave:


This isn't a competition man. If standalone is a better fit for you then you made the right choice.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

In PA 96' and up get an obd2 test. No sniffer. The machine communicates with the cars ecu and checks to see all readiness monitors are complete. On newer cars it checks the vin vs. what you scanned on their registration cars or what you typed in.

Standalone has no prayer of passing this test. Ever.

Now back to the biased/my way is right for everyone BS


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

Dave926 said:


> If you have nothing to contribute here then there is no reason for you to post. Until you have real world experience with factual statements and not some thing you read on a forum then please leave.
> 
> I've had experience with c2 stuff. It was okay but it had its quirks. Random stalls, finicky nature of MAF placement, and lean fueling under boost (12.8:1) made me feel uneasy. The car drove great otherwise. It was a friend's car that we put together, and if I knew now what I knew then it would have ran ms2/extra.


 i run c2 OBD1 95 vrt tune.......... no issues doesn't stall, doesn't do anything except it drives and it drives good turn key go to work boosting away


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

TIGninja said:


> And 95% of the chipped cars have zero chance of ever passing without some major messing around. In this case its just as easy to unplug your PNP and put stock injectors and maf back in the car. All the propaganda that is being pushed in this thread by the pro off the shelf chip guys is just a big load of BS and really isnt in valid in the real world.




stfu......c2 chips def pass emissions...I had to do it, couple of my friends in NY had to do it... no problem passed every single time.opcorn:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> In PA 96' and up get an obd2 test. No sniffer. The machine communicates with the cars ecu and checks to see all readiness monitors are complete. On newer cars it checks the vin vs. what you scanned on their registration cars or what you typed in.
> 
> Standalone has no prayer of passing this test. Ever.
> 
> Now back to the biased/my way is right for everyone BS


If you could comprehend what I wrote you would have a clue. 

The development of the stock ECU is a fail if you own a VW (some of the later stuff is getting better though finally).

If you cared as much as you claim about actually doing something then you would be involved with the motronic development thread I started. Until you do something positive for the chip tune people I suggest you get out of this thread because you really dont have a clue.


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

TIGninja said:


> If you could comprehend what I wrote you would have a clue.
> 
> The development of the stock ECU is a fail if you own a VW (some of the later stuff is getting better though finally).
> 
> If you cared as much as you claim about actually doing something then you would be involved with the motronic development thread I started. Until you do something positive for the chip tune people I suggest you get out of this thread because you really dont have a clue.




no you don't have any clue, coming from a guy that tells us chips fail emissions. dude your BS smells from miles away


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> This isn't a competition man. If standalone is a better fit for you then you made the right choice.


Really? Cause you sure make it sound like one :laugh:opcorn:

Stay tuned for 630cc vs Lugtronic standalone dyno on sunday :thumbup:


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

lets put the extras like launch boost control etc what standalone has aside for a the min..
they are both computers one is user friendly with instructions and the other is all top secret stuff 

the motronic with stock maf maxs around 300whp 
the motronic with 95mm maf maxs around 450whp 

with fuel and timing maps tuned both stock ecu and standalone will give same output upto this level 

i am happy with a custom 450whp obd1 tune yes i can push whp further but the fueling will not be metered


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

this thread cracks me up opcorn:


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

A2rebirth said:


> no you don't have any clue, coming from a guy that tells us chips fail emissions. dude your BS smells from miles away


Yea your right. I should never talk about chip tuning again because I dont know anything about it.

There will never be anything like crome,turbo edit,or flashpro for these cars because people in the VW scene are to big of jerks to ever accept what they dont know anything about. Im out,let the chip dildos rule the world.


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

TIGninja said:


> Yea your right. I should never talk about chip tuning again because I dont know anything about it.
> 
> There will never be anything like crome,turbo edit,or flashpro for these cars because people in the VW scene are to big of jerks to ever accept what they dont know anything about. Im out,let the chip dildos rule the world.




see ya


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

A2rebirth said:


> no you don't have any clue, coming from a guy that tells us chips fail emissions. dude your BS smells from miles away


Do you know what he does for a living? Builds and tunes high power turbos cars across all brands. His input on the lack of open source ecu development for vw's is correct.

Dont tell me it is because Motronic ECU's run a MAF. Evo's, DSM's, LS1's, Ford's, Subaru's all do as well. Guess what, through non **** head community support their ECUs have been cracked with either really cheap or free open source tuning software. The only reason people think the motronic ecu has greater complexity than others is because they, for the most part, have not been cracked.

C2/UM or whoever's software can pass emissions and readiness scans, thats great. But its not giving you the fullest potential, end of story regardless if its standalone or not.

Here is my theory:
Turbo A blows hot air at 20 psi
Turbo B is in its sweet spot at 20 psi. 

Turbo A is used with a 'off the shelf' chip tuned car. End user gets on it, giving the car a good crack on the highway. Intake temps rise, computer sees this and retards the timing (EGT goes skyhigh, thats never good) but it isnt enough so now there is knock......bad way to run a turbo car. Lets not forget the lack of open loop wideband feedback going to the ecu (motronic ME7 does not apply to this). 

Turbo B, same story. IAT doesnt get out of control, and within reason the car isnt knocking. Guess what? This is the car/turbo a generic "off the shelf" is tuned for. Probably why slcturbo's car runs as well as it does, or the handful of users that have success with their setup.

So what does a generic 'off the shelf' chip tuner do? Run timing maps significantly retarded to prevent the reputation of dangerous, over aggressive tunes. Open source tuning could fix that, but the **** headed VW community (and vortex too) will never let that happen.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

when does modifying the stock ECU cross the line to becoming stand-alone? Or does it ever?


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## PSUCorrado (Sep 11, 2006)

Dave926 said:


> Open source tuning could fix that, but the **** headed VW community (and vortex too) will never let that happen.


Yep vw is so far behind in the ecu tuning world, at least the 1.8t world is catching on with mastero.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Half the problem is vortex. Ive seen a few tuning threads disappear over the years, I am sure as a result of this forum being a 'business'


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

TIGninja said:


> Yea your right. I should never talk about chip tuning again because I dont know anything about it.
> 
> There will never be anything like crome,turbo edit,or flashpro for these cars because people in the VW scene are to big of jerks to ever accept what they dont know anything about. Im out,let the chip dildos rule the world.


just put him on your ignore list...

Keep posting good info:thumbup:
i've just received my EFI book posted on the previous page, reading-time


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Really? Cause you sure make it sound like one :laugh:opcorn:
> 
> Stay tuned for 630cc vs Lugtronic standalone dyno on sunday :thumbup:


 Whatever you say man. I hope you make 2,000 whp really. It has no bearing on my life:beer: 

Post a timeslip at some point if you get a chance. That way we can see what all that power is doing:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

A2rebirth said:


> this thread cracks me up opcorn:


 It's utterly ridiculous. Back and forth about who can make 1000whp from guys that run high 11's 12's towards guys that are happy with 300-400whp on the street.:facepalm: 

It's the reason I said the thread was pointless on the first page. This is what it turns into. 

It's like a few posts ago. "We'll see what my lugtronic makes vs. chip blah blah blah". Dude who cares. Not everyone is a sheep on here subscribing to the internet HP wars. 400whp and I'm done. Trans lasts, runs 11.5's legally, reliable, and was ~cheap to build. Post your dyno, get a 16 yr. old fanclub, etc if that's your thing. I don't need one.:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

pimS said:


> just put him on your ignore list...
> 
> Keep posting good info:thumbup:
> i've just received my EFI book posted on the previous page, reading-time


 You should put the guy you quoted on your ignore list. 

What causes someone to have such an issue with something other people are doing? If a guy pays $350 for a chip and loves the results what normal human being takes issue with that? Something isn't right there.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I'm glad your maturity is still shining through.  :banghead:
> 
> In any case, I know quite a few people that have had trouble with the "30#" setup on dizzy cars. It's *very* hit or miss. I know Knezo's car was over a few times trying to work through issues with it when he had the Vortech on it and I remember when McNair had trouble with the same BS with that and then with the turbo setup. It'll only run right when everything is nearly exactly how it is as the car it was tuned on. Those OBD1 "tunes" are very picky. It's one of the reasons I ran an old version of GIAC for so long, because it worked. Tried quite a few other ones, and none ran the car that well. See the last page on how that one turned out vs standalone tuned on the exact same day.
> 
> I'm going to throw standalone on the daily here soon, maybe I'll post an update on how easy it was and how much better gas mileage I can get... and how the CEL went out. eace:


 OBD1 old MAF is finicky for sure. Get MAf away from turbo and A/F away from MAF and it's fine. 

Yeah post an update. Maybe take it to the track as well. Sooner or later all this standalone tinkering has to produce a fast car.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> It's utterly ridiculous. Back and forth about who can make 1000whp from guys that run high 11's 12's towards guys that are happy with 300-400whp on the street.:facepalm:
> 
> It's the reason I said the thread was pointless on the first page. This is what it turns into.
> 
> It's like a few posts ago. "We'll see what my lugtronic makes vs. chip blah blah blah". Dude who cares. Not everyone is a sheep on here subscribing to the internet HP wars. 400whp and I'm done. Trans lasts, runs 11.5's legally, reliable, and was ~cheap to build. Post your dyno, get a 16 yr. old fanclub, etc if that's your thing. I don't need one.:beer:


 I don't understand why you get so damn defensive :banghead: What I'm doing is to try to provide technical, real world data for some of the debates here between the C2 630 files and the Lugtronic. No where did I say anything about a fan club? Also I will take it to the track once or twice but I'm not that big into drag racing and thats not what I'm building the car for. I don't own slicks, nor will I. I'll see if I can borrow a set similar to the ones you've used if that makes you happy? But there are cars running 10's on lugtronic. 

Also my car has been pretty darn reliable, I've driven it up and back to Maine 14.5 hours each way. It will be driven to sowo exc, I have no issues taking the car where ever. 

Your car is quick, and $/hp you did very well, It just didn't work out for me like it did for you. Honestly I wish it had because it would have saved me a good amount of money. But I'm not the first car that's not run correctly on the 42# stuff. And whatever you want to believe is fine, but the car was built correctly. Can we stop this now? 



slcturbo said:


> Whatever you say man. I hope you make 2,000 whp really. It has no bearing on my life:beer:
> 
> Post a timeslip at some point if you get a chance. That way we can see what all that power is doing:beer:


 Also I'm not making that much more power then you. Lugtronic will just help me put it to the ground better with launch control, boost by gear, and ramping boost. This is why I wanted it above any other advantages. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> OBD1 old MAF is finicky for sure. Get MAf away from turbo and A/F away from MAF and it's fine.
> 
> Yeah post an update. Maybe take it to the track as well. Sooner or later all this standalone tinkering has to produce a fast car.


 That's NOT the solution to the problem, it's a lot more complex then that. YOU just didn't have the issue that those two cars had (your ecu code was probably the *exact* one the chip was made for). 

I'll let you know how my daily does at the track :banghead: Plenty of quick standalone cars are at the track already.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Chip people; you know who you are. 
SEM people; you know who you are. 

Plenty of reasons for either. 

I am 95 OBD1 new MAF and was definitely one of the lucky ones. Solid 14.7 A/F at idle and pulls real nice through 15 PSI but is too rich to go further (mid 10s A/F and falling at 15 PSI). Unless I can find a leak or something I am probably stuck at 15. I have nothing bad to say about chip tunes since mine really gave no headaches. That said I will still probably go standalone at some point. I like to muck with things and want to know everything that is going on. I am a controls freak so I can't help it. Even for low power levels I still want the features and am willing to pay and learn to have it. Could be a year or two before I do it and the chip will serve me well till then. Just sayin.


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## A2rebirth (Mar 8, 2011)

vergessen wir es said:


> Chip people; you know who you are.
> SEM people; you know who you are.
> 
> Plenty of reasons for either.
> ...


 
exactly!! if you are OBD2 now and have a chip stay with a chip. If you are looking into converting into OBD2 from OBD1 it might be worth it to just go standalone. 


continue on opcorn:


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

A2rebirth said:


> exactly!! if you are OBD2 now and have a chip stay with a chip. If you are looking into converting into OBD2 from OBD1 it might be worth it to just go standalone.
> 
> 
> continue on opcorn:


 Kinda Sorta. In this case I already bought all the OBD2 upgrade parts but figure if I am going to tear into it I may as well go full goose bozo. I think I know that SEM is the right choice for me, but was hoping you all could clear that uncertainty up hahahahahahahahah.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Guys stop going back and forth with this bull****. The only good thing it's doing for this thread is keeping it bumped for more people to read, but it's been 90% garbage for the past 5-6 pages so. 
You don't have to keep stating your points, we get it.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Another simple thing to add to my last post. SLCTurbo how long do you think your engine would last if you ran that power/boost level with out a headspacer and the canned tune that you have? 

With sem you can tune for high compression and boost no problem. At some point enough is enough, and a shelf tune will not be able to retard timing enough to prevent detonation.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Another simple thing to add to my last post. SLCTurbo how long do you think your engine would last if you ran that power/boost level with out a headspacer and the canned tune that you have?
> 
> With sem you can tune for high compression and boost no problem. At some point enough is enough, and a shelf tune will not be able to retard timing enough to prevent detonation.


 No idea. The spacer was under $200 and was always in the plan when I chose to go 42#. I never intended to run 15-20psi without a spacer. 

Again, not looking to break records or prove a point. My setup gives me more than enough on the street and as much as I can use at the track without a bar all while keeping my stock trans(other than peloquin) intact. I don't need to "tune" for anything. I have what I need. 

Does standalone change at what point you get detonation with 93 octane?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

magner said:


> Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience


 I assume you mean me. 

I'm an idiot because I logically stated the benefits of a chipIf you say so. 

Is everyone an "idiot" who doesn't agree with you? How old are you? 

I'll tell you the same thing I tell all the name callers. Find something SPECIFIC that I said that you find idiotic. Quote it and let's talk about it. We'll break it down and I'll support my opinion with facts/examples vs. namecalling and BS. Deal? 

You don't like what I said sir. There's a difference:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> That's NOT the solution to the problem, it's a lot more complex then that. YOU just didn't have the issue that those two cars had (your ecu code was probably the *exact* one the chip was made for).
> 
> I'll let you know how my daily does at the track :banghead: Plenty of quick standalone cars are at the track already.


 Isn't the standalone car with the R32 motor slower than your chipped 12V in your sig? 

That can't be good for business:laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Back to the name calling BS by people with no or slow timeslips, comparing race cars to street cars, internet fan club posturing, and so on. 

Get a fast car. Then it wont be so easy for a heavy chipped street car running 11.4's to bruise your ego. :beer:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'll summarize my feelings here since things seem to have largely degenerated to mostly talk talk. 

1: A true standalone system is ALWAYS going to offer more flexibilty and in most cases more power potential as no 2 motors are ever exactly the same. But you really need to have at least marginally decent mechanical and electrical skills as well as a reasonable understanding of how EFI works to reach that potential. 

2: Chiptunes and reflashes are obviously the choice when you are hamstrung by local emissions laws or don't have the skills/knowledge to set up and tune a standalone. But some chip tunes are better than others and you are at the mercy of someone else's idea of what is right/good for your car. 

3: A true plug and play standalone can offer the best of both worlds but decent p&p standalones are scarce....Lugtronic and MS based DIYPnP are the only ones that come to mind. ( I've used AEM before :thumbdown 

4: For motor swaps, hybrid frankenmotors and dedicated track cars a standalone ECU makes the most sense to me.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

@ SLC 

why do you keep posting, you've made your point.... 

i want more info on first hand experience from guys here, not having to read through six pages of utter discussion BS that's not relevant


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

pimS said:


> @ SLC
> 
> why do you keep posting, you've made your point....
> 
> i want more info on first hand experience from guys here, not having to read through six pages of utter discussion BS that's not relevant


 i believe he is bi-polar 
one thread he is making fun of me for being "slower" than him and on another the congratulates me for runs faster than him on street tires 
oh well, this thread has gone from a good idea to another thread ruined by him. Maybe vortex admin will catch the wave and clue in 
:facepalm:


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

.therealvrt said:


> i believe he is bi-polar
> one thread he is making fun of me for being "slower" than him and on another the congratulates me for runs faster than him on street tires
> oh well, this thread has gone from a good idea to another thread ruined by him. Maybe vortex admin will catch the wave and clue in
> :facepalm:


 Honestly, its the posts like this which intaginate him, name calling etc. is not going to make him stop posting, he will retaliate this your post I guarantee it. 
If you want him to stop posting, than agree that his chip tune is 'awesome' for his goals and needs and stop the direct reflections on him or his setup. 

There really isn't anything else that can be said debating this topic that hasen't already be vommited throughout this thread. The only addition will be direct chip tune cars to SEM and the difference in the dyno graph on the exact same car on the exact same dyno with only management changes.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> No idea. The spacer was under $200 and was always in the plan when I chose to go 42#. I never intended to run 15-20psi without a spacer.
> 
> Again, not looking to break records or prove a point. My setup gives me more than enough on the street and as much as I can use at the track without a bar all while keeping my stock trans(other than peloquin) intact. I don't need to "tune" for anything. I have what I need.
> 
> Does standalone change at what point you get detonation with 93 octane?


 Spacer is another 200 bucks you need to add to the cost of software, injectors and a maf housing. The c2 software will not pull enough timing to run high boost+pumpgas+big power. 

Standalone can be tuned around not having a headspacer. This thread is not about time slips, its about power simple as that.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

So who here as messed with GoTech? 

http://www.gotech.co.za/enginemanagement.html


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## ruskie (Mar 16, 2011)

opcorn:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Honestly, its the posts like this which intaginate him, name calling etc. is not going to make him stop posting, he will retaliate this your post I guarantee it.
> If you want him to stop posting, than agree that his chip tune is 'awesome' for his goals and needs and stop the direct reflections on him or his setup.
> 
> There really isn't anything else that can be said debating this topic that hasen't already be vommited throughout this thread. The only addition will be direct chip tune cars to SEM and the difference in the dyno graph on the exact same car on the exact same dyno with only management changes.


 We have a winner!:laugh: 

You got it my man. People bust my balls and I return the favor. 

The chip does work for my goals. For some reason that offends a certain type. Funny how they all run 11.7-12.8's. Coincidence I'm sure


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Spacer is another 200 bucks you need to add to the cost of software, injectors and a maf housing. The c2 software will not pull enough timing to run high boost+pumpgas+big power.
> 
> Standalone can be tuned around not having a headspacer. This thread is not about time slips, its about power simple as that.


 Let it go man. My setup works for me, was relatively cheap, has OE driveability, and would pass emissions if I needed it to. 

I don't care about big power(over ~400whp) or standalone for a street car with no cage/roll bar, fwd w/ 205mm tires, and a weak trans. If you do then go standalone.eace: 

Does someone being happy with a chip tune bother you? I don't get it. I don't get offended when someone makes 700whp on standalone bc I don't care.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

pimS said:


> @ SLC
> 
> why do you keep posting, you've made your point....
> 
> i want more info on first hand experience from guys here, not having to read through six pages of utter discussion BS that's not relevant


 Then post to the guys that consistently insult/try to discredit every post I make on here. I haven't been telling people with standalone their wrong for 6 pages. It's been the other way around. 

People learn the hard way. Act like a dk and you'll hear from me more often.:beer: 

Like I said before if this was a standalone only thread then rewrite the title bc most people took it as standalone vs. chip. If it was to mean chip then don't ask for the other sides opinion/rationale if you don't wanna hear it.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Could you just leave it alone. 

I want some first hand info on standalone, and at the rate this is goind the thread is going to die soon.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> So who here as messed with GoTech?
> 
> http://www.gotech.co.za/enginemanagement.html


 i was 50/50gotech or megasquirt i decided to go megasquirt in the end as everyone goes out of there way to help with any teething problem you may have and i did not see any support forums for gotech but the choice is your here is a good link for settings if it for a vr6 http://www.gotech.co.za/Promanualvr6.pdf


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> We have a winner!:laugh:
> 
> You got it my man. People bust my balls and I return the favor.
> 
> The chip does work for my goals. For some reason that offends a certain type. Funny how they all run 11.7-12.8's. Coincidence I'm sure


 And when your done to get a set up like you have you will need to spend more in bandaids then if you would have used standalone in the first place. 

1 AVCR= $450 
2 head spacer $200 plus other things. 
3 Maf housing=Atleast $100 more.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

pimS said:


> Could you just leave it alone.
> 
> I want some first hand info on standalone, and at the rate this is goind the thread is going to die soon.


 What do you want to know?


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

does any one know anything about this Bosch Motronic MS 2.9 race ecu fitted to this 610bhp audi r8 ? 

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/fuelFeedType.aspx?fuelFeedTypeID=649 

http://www.bildon.com/racing/racecars/its_corrado/MS_29.pdf 

http://www.bildon.com/racing/racecars/its_corrado/Hacking_M2.9.cfm


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

magner said:


> i was 50/50gotech or megasquirt i decided to go megasquirt in the end as everyone goes out of there way to help with any teething problem you may have and i did not see any support forums for gotech but the choice is your here is a good link for settings if it for a vr6 http://www.gotech.co.za/Promanualvr6.pdf


 
Thanks, got a customers car in with it and it is having some cold start/throttle close issues.


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## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

i have the best of both worlds. i chipped my SEM last year!


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

515whp uncorrected from 630cc stock MAF file on a stock motor with spacer. Not too shabby. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5226995-Over-500-whp.-Check.


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Really? Cause you sure make it sound like one :laugh:opcorn:
> 
> Stay tuned for 630cc vs Lugtronic standalone dyno on sunday :thumbup:


 So how did it go?


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

BlownGinster said:


> So how did it go?


 I'll let Kevin post up the results since hes got the files. But on the same car, same boost, same dyno, only software changes it made about 40whp more and 50 more trq then the c2 chip setup.:thumbup: 

And most of all the car actually runs really really smooth. Couldn't be happier.


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

Good to here. Can't wait to get mine finished up :beer:


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

thecorradokid24 said:


> I'll let Kevin post up the results since hes got the files. But on the same car, same boost, same dyno, only software changes it made about 40whp more and 50 more trq then the c2 chip setup.:thumbup:
> 
> And most of all the car actually runs really really smooth. Couldn't be happier.


 Proof is in the pudding.  Any car specifically tuned for it's setup, climate, and fuel will work the best, those who ignore that are uneducated. 

Congrats to you.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

40 horses and 50 ft lbs is nothing to turn your nose at, That is a serious gain!


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Jeebus said:


> Proof is in the pudding.  Any car specifically tuned for it's setup, climate, and fuel will work the best, those who ignore that are uneducated.
> 
> Congrats to you.


 Exactly. And its what works for me, car runs so smooth and happy now.Its closer to OE drivability then the C2 stuff ever was. Honestly i'm happy running it at 15-18 psi and just having fun with it at this point. Been so long since the car ran correctly. 



GinsterMan98 said:


> 40 horses and 50 ft lbs is nothing to turn your nose at, That is a serious gain!


 And well, this didn't hurt my feelings either :thumbup: Very happy with these numbers on this size turbo (T60-1 Turbonetics T3 .82 hotside)


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Well here is the hard data people. I know my car isn't a crazy 500whp VRT but lugtronic made more power over C2 Chip on my car, not to mention the drive ability is so much better now. 

Same Car 
Same Dyno 
No Changes other then software 

Run 3 (Blue) is 630 Promaf on high boost (23.5psi) --- Run 10 (Red) is Lugtronic on Low boost (15psi) 










Made the same power 9 psi apart. 

Now here is run 13 which is Lugtronic on the same high boost seeting 23.5psi 










Here are 22 and 23.5 psi runs 










Turbo was about done in this range. Also had a small fueling issue when we got this high. Might have gotten 440ish out of it otherwise. 

*Lugtronic Best Numbers* - 419.57 WHP 370.75 TRQ 
*C2 Promaf Best Numbers* - 383.52 WHP 309.61 TRQ 

_NET - 36.05 WHP 61.14 TRQ_:wave: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZidG3_eLcOA


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Looks good.


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

I don't know if your car has something wrong with it bc those are some weak numbers even on lugtronics. At 24psi on C2 630cc 4"maf I made 470 Whp. Mine was on a dyno jet as well all the same as yours


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> I don't know if your car has something wrong with it bc those are some weak numbers even on lugtronics. At 24psi on C2 630cc 4"maf I made 470 Whp. Mine was on a dyno jet as well all the same as yours


 And you probably have either a larger turbo than I do, and/or T4 hotside. This is a Turbonetics T60-1 T3 .82 hotside. These are very good numbers for this turbo. But regardless its the same car with just software changes.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> I don't know if your car has something wrong with it bc those are some weak numbers even on lugtronics. At 24psi on C2 630cc 4"maf I made 470 Whp. Mine was on a dyno jet as well all the same as yours


 The point is that the lugtronic made alot more power on this car with the same set up because you can tune it. Yes some VRs seem to make alot less power no matter what you do to them and thats why the chip failed here but the standalone did reasonably well for the few runs on the dyno it did.


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

Didn't realize you had a smaller turbo. How come the dyno sheets start at about 4000 rpms?


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> Didn't realize you had a smaller turbo. How come the dyno sheets start at about 4000 rpms?


 Thats where the boost starts :laugh: You can adjust the scale. 

Not by any means saying chip tune cars don't make power, because they do, your car is a prime example.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

That's a nice back to back, but haven't people already made 570-580whp on the 630pro maf tune? 

I'm hoping to make 419whp on the 42# stuff


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

I think i saw a couple of those dynos.....but I think the point was that on lugtronic, those might have made 640-650. I had good luck with C2 42# and pro maf 630 setup. They both ran great on my car. I have lugtronic coming to have more options and make some more power. I honestly never came close to maxing out the promaf tune I had. I wanted more fetures but didn't want 3 other boxes hooked in to do what I wanted. What my car really needs is some track time. 3 passes in 2 years kind of sucks.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

BlownGinster said:


> I think i saw a couple of those dynos.....but I think the point was that on lugtronic, those might have made 640-650. I had good luck with C2 42# and pro maf 630 setup. They both ran great on my car. I have lugtronic coming to have more options and make some more power. I honestly never came close to maxing out the promaf tune I had. I wanted more fetures but didn't want 3 other boxes hooked in to do what I wanted. What my car really needs is some track time. 3 passes in 2 years kind of sucks.


 I agree with what you said about the add ons. The wiring really adds up with all those things 
I also hear you about seat time. I have been rebuilding my car for the last 1.5 years and can't wait to get some seat time in again


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> That's a nice back to back, but haven't people already made 570-580whp on the 630pro maf tune?
> 
> I'm hoping to make 419whp on the 42# stuff


 They sure have. Chip cars can make big power as I said. Those cars had a lot more hardware than I have on mine currently though. Judging by your trap speed you should be making more power than me. But also you have cams and a few extra goodies that I don't. The point is that for this setup it made more power for me. It should be able to hit about 440 whp with cams and a new FPR pretty easy, I'll retune it in a couple months.


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## xpalendocious (Nov 28, 2003)

my car made 580whp or so on a promaf tune. doubt it would have made more on standalone. 
i have 700+hp plans for my next setup. jeff atwood will tune it from 3000 miles away


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

BlownGinster said:


> I think i saw a couple of those dynos.....but I think the point was that on lugtronic, those might have made 640-650. I had good luck with C2 42# and pro maf 630 setup. They both ran great on my car. I have lugtronic coming to have more options and make some more power. I honestly never came close to maxing out the promaf tune I had. I wanted more fetures but didn't want 3 other boxes hooked in to do what I wanted. What my car really needs is some track time. 3 passes in 2 years kind of sucks.


 :beer:Absolutely agree. Just bringing up that this is another example of where the "tune" isn't the limiting factor of the setup. The turbo is. 

I guess if you need the 640-650 then it might make sense:thumbup: 

Can we get a cost breakdown of that 36whp was it? The Lugtronic, the tuning, the install. 

These conversations/comparisons are irrelevant without stating what it took to acheive them $$ and time wise. 

I think at the end of the day this really boils down to preference. Some people just want standalone. Whether they need the power or not or even have a setup that can take advantage of it. Some people like to tinker and have the time to do it. Nothing wrong with that.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

xpalendocious said:


> my car made 580whp or so on a promaf tune. doubt it would have made more on standalone.
> i have 700+hp plans for my next setup. jeff atwood will tune it from 3000 miles away


 Somebody lied to you. A properly tuned standalone will always make more power. Always.


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> :beer:Absolutely agree. Just bringing up that this is another example of where the "tune" isn't the limiting factor of the setup. The turbo is.
> 
> I guess if you need the 640-650 then it might make sense:thumbup:
> 
> ...


 Another big part of it...........I love to tinker:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> They sure have. Chip cars can make big power as I said. Those cars had a lot more hardware than I have on mine currently though. Judging by your trap speed you should be making more power than me. But also you have cams and a few extra goodies that I don't. The point is that for this setup it made more power for me. It should be able to hit about 440 whp with cams and a new FPR pretty easy, I'll retune it in a couple months.


 Absolutely. Not hating by any means. 

Just saying you went standalone bc you wanted to or were having issues with a chip right? I mean your power goals could easily have been achieved with a chip. 

Of course it made more power man. Your optimizing timing and A/F. I think looking at it from strictly a black and white viewpoint people question if it's worth the added time and cost for non caged/barred race cars. Why do I need to optimize if my fwd already spins 3rd and maybe even 4th on the highway. Am I spending thousands to say I have standalone or because I really need and will use the capabilities. 

Judging by the fact that there aren't a whole lot of 10 sec cars around I'm guessing most just want it vs. need it.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

BlownGinster said:


> Another big part of it...........I love to tinker:thumbup:


 :beer: 

I do to, but I have so many hobbies that the chip let's me enjoy those as well. To each his own. We should be thankful that both tuning options are available for all types of lifestyles/goals/budgets. Why this turns into an argument/competition is unfortunate. It's like someone get's their ego bruised, sides form, and now people are comparing apples to oranges trying to prove the other guy wrong. 

Enjoy your build and let other people enjoy theirs. :beer: 

I'm not speaking to you personally BTW:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Absolutely. Not hating by any means.
> 
> Just saying you went standalone bc you wanted to or were having issues with a chip right? I mean your power goals could easily have been achieved with a chip.
> 
> ...


 If the car doesnt run right with the chip why would he stay with it? The standalone made the car run well and made more power. No these chips do not run the same on every car. It also has very little to do with the running condition of the car. The standalone however can be tuned to run well on every car. Anyone who cant see this is in complete denial.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Absolutely. Not hating by any means.
> 
> Just saying you went standalone bc you wanted to or were having issues with a chip right? I mean your power goals could easily have been achieved with a chip.
> 
> ...


 Well it's nice to be able to retune the car after you make changes without buying anything else. I didn't get it to say I have standalone, that just retarded. Chips didn't work for me, car never ran right for me. As far ad I'm concerned the extra power was just a bonus. 

Also if you were on standalone you could be doing ramping boost and not doing burnouts in any gear. That's another nice feature. 

We did this just to provide some information since no one had done anything like this yet. Do what you would like with the information.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> It's like someone get's their ego bruised, sides form, and now people are comparing apples to oranges trying to prove the other guy wrong.


 And that person is you :laugh:


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

That first chart posted speaks volumes.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

thecorradokid24 said:


> We did this just to provide some information since no one had done anything like this yet..


 And we thank you for taking the time to post this info.:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Well it's nice to be able to retune the car after you make changes without buying anything else. I didn't get it to say I have standalone, that just retarded. Chips didn't work for me, car never ran right for me. As far ad I'm concerned the extra power was just a bonus.
> 
> Also if you were on standalone you could be doing ramping boost and not doing burnouts in any gear. That's another nice feature.
> 
> We did this just to provide some information since no one had done anything like this yet. Do what you would like with the information.


 You don't need a retune with a MAF based chip tune. If it works for you of course. 

$250 used avcr. Gear based boost, rpm based boost, etc. whatever you want.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And that person is you :laugh:


 Keep hatin my man. It's amusing:laugh:


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

Just to let you know. You can tinker and fine tune a chip tune. You can adjust fuel pressure to lean or richen the air fuel ratio to make peak power. I understand its not like standalone ie timing etc. But you can fine tune. Also you pay extra for stuff like 2 step and other accessories just like I did. 
I think my problem with standalone is that I am not big into computers. Im not computer savvy with programs and such nor do I have the time to be. I like the pop in and start it up ease of a chip. Plus I only spent $300 on software. 2step/ wot box $199. I bought my chip used :thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> Just to let you know. You can tinker and fine tune a chip tune. You can adjust fuel pressure to lean or richen the air fuel ratio to make peak power. I understand its not like standalone ie timing etc. But you can fine tune. Also you pay extra for stuff like 2 step and other accessories just like I did.
> I think my problem with standalone is that I am not big into computers. Im not computer savvy with programs and such nor do I have the time to be. I like the pop in and start it up ease of a chip. Plus I only spent $300 on software. 2step/ wot box $199. I bought my chip used :thumbup:


 You dont have to be computer savy to have the benefits of standalone. This is one of the things that people dont understand. You should bring it to a dyno to have it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing to get the most out of them anyways. And if you buy a lugtronic then it will come with a runable base map the probably runs better then the chips you guys use. 

These are some of the excuses that you guys keep making for these chips and yes I do realize that everyone gets upset when I set the story straight but I believe that the truth in this matter is more valuable then people feelings.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> Just to let you know. You can tinker and fine tune a chip tune. You can adjust fuel pressure to lean or richen the air fuel ratio to make peak power.


 That isn't something that people commonly call "tuning" in the sense being it effects the rest of the fueling map only because you needed more or less fuel for peak power.... 
Generally that is known as a bandaid fix for something that wasen't correct for your setup in the first place. 

back to the finest topic, $ vs hp can be debated but $ vs drivability is a whole other ball game and its the point people get 'custom' tunes in the first place rather than buying off the shelf flashes etc...


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

something people are overlooking is that the driveability of the car was increased when tuned by Kevin. 
Also i think everyone needs to look at the cost OVER buying a c2 chip and maf housing not just the total cost. 
I the end approx $1500 for 40whp is a decent investment, after all, how many of us have bought a brand new exhaust for half of that for 5-10 whp? 
Thanks for posting up the differences, it is valuable info 
:thumbup:


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> You don't need a retune with a MAF based chip tune.


 LOL... go put a bigger throttle body on your car, let me know how it works.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

.therealvrt said:


> something people are overlooking is that the driveability of the car was increased when tuned by Kevin.


 Very true, the focus usually is on peak power output, this car now runs better than ever and there was even power gained; all while using much less boost (-8.5psi). Looking at the first chart there was a significant power gain in the low/mid range, right at 55 mph, he's up some 20+ hp. That is that is some very useable, everyday, just driving around, non-drag racing, power that’s going to make the car that much more fun to drive.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

billyVR6 said:


> Very true, the focus usually is on peak power output, this car now runs better than ever and there was even power gained; all while using much less boost (-8.5psi). Looking at the first chart there was a significant power gain in the low/mid range, right at 55 mph, he's up some 20+ hp. That is that is some very useable, everyday, just driving around, non-drag racing, power that’s going to make the car that much more fun to drive.


 Exactly, I was after drive-ability, the extra power was a bonus. As you stated I did pick up some more midrange power which is always nice and useful. :thumbup: 

As with anything else you usually pay for what you get.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

so you can tune it perfect with afpr & closed loop trims should still be in range...
you can tweak the timing & have more control over me7 with a pot than...well anyone, radioshak
why would you need more, cold start ??

just trying to change sides every post for spirit of debate opcorn:

it's been over 70 here a couple days already
wife says hi :beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

.therealvrt said:


> something people are overlooking is that the driveability of the car was increased when tuned by Kevin.
> Also i think everyone needs to look at the cost OVER buying a c2 chip and maf housing not just the total cost.
> I the end approx $1500 for 40whp is a decent investment, after all, how many of us have bought a brand new exhaust for half of that for 5-10 whp?
> Thanks for posting up the differences, it is valuable info
> :thumbup:


 I think you are very correct, once you start talking 400+ 40 hp without touching the hard parts is a good gain for the investment. You are also correct on if you bought a standalone right out the gate you would only be upgrading injectors and not a chip and injectors. You could even just run 1000cc injectors just incase you wanted to make stupid power and never have to upgrade. Kevin told me he does not even sell anything smaller than 630's. I think the big advantage is tuning for the setup and not building a setup for the tune. 
thecorradokid24 
Thanks for posting this up, most on the Vortex just talk about doing something like this. You actually did it and we are all better off because of it.:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Jeebus said:


> LOL... go put a bigger throttle body on your car, let me know how it works.


 Why would I need a bigger throttle body? My car is FI. It's called boost:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Just curious. How come none of the questions I asked regarding lead time( time ordered to time product is in customers hands) and total cost(standalone, tuning, time spent tuning) were answered? 

Those are important questions if you are to have a true comparison. 

I'm curious for myself actually. Next project might need more power so I'd like to know if I have to wait a month, a year, etc. Cost vs. benefit. We know the benefits, but what are the costs?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Just curious. How come none of the questions I asked regarding lead time( time ordered to time product is in customers hands) and total cost(standalone, tuning, time spent tuning) were answered?
> 
> Those are important questions if you are to have a true comparison.
> 
> I'm curious for myself actually. Next project might need more power so I'd like to know if I have to wait a month, a year, etc. Cost vs. benefit. We know the benefits, but what are the costs?


 Well the only info I have on any of this is what I can see. I see 10 runs on standalone which equals about 1 hour of dyno time. This is about $140. Under two hours should be expected if you have a decent base map to begin with and the tuner isnt a complete moron.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

$1500 for 40whp? I mean it's not horrible and I can't speak to the driveability, but that's not exactly cheap. Depends on the specific setup. You'll make ~420whp with OE driveability (vast majority of cars) on a 12V with a $350 chip and $100 MAF housing if you buy new. I'm talking tuning only. 

For me that ~400-420whp is the magic # on a 12V simply because the chip tuning is so cheap at that level ($450) new total. Over that is where both sides really have a claim. Cost gets closer and with standalone's built in features that are really needed on high hp cars you can make a good case. 

400whp , obd2 car looking to run 11's I can't see why you wouldn't at least try a chip. It's too easy and you'll sell it for 70% of what you paid. Buy used and you'll break even if you sell. If it doesn't work at least you'll feel better about shelling out the $1500.:beer:


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Just curious. How come none of the questions I asked regarding lead time( time ordered to time product is in customers hands) and total cost(standalone, tuning, time spent tuning) were answered?
> 
> Those are important questions if you are to have a true comparison.
> 
> I'm curious for myself actually. Next project might need more power so I'd like to know if I have to wait a month, a year, etc. Cost vs. benefit. We know the benefits, but what are the costs?


 Sure I'll answer you, sorry about that. 

About a 2 week leadtime. Plug and play ECU is 1475 normally. I also bought the wideband for the ECU 90$ more. so 1575 normally I did the tax season sale and got 10% off that. so just under 1400$. 

http://www.lugtronic.com/ 

Not sure what kevin usually charges to tune. He wanted to make a new map so the rate was greatly reduced. 

+2 hours of dyno time (100$/hr) also got a better rate from a local shop. But all in all your looking around 1800-1900$ if you have Kevin tune it. If you take logs and have him do it through e-mail it will be much, much less. (Just the base price of ecu) and anything above and beyond for requests for tuning. 

By comparison the C2 Promaf (359) + Software (599$) + 2-step box (199$) will get you over 1000$


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Well the only info I have on any of this is what I can see. I see 10 runs on standalone which equals about 1 hour of dyno time. This is about $140. Under two hours should be expected if you have a decent base map to begin with and the tuner isnt a complete moron.


 Ok. What's the tuner charge especially if he has to travel? 

What's the standalone cost? PNP ecu or custom harness?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Ok. What's the tuner charge especially if he has to travel?
> 
> What's the standalone cost? PNP ecu or custom harness?


 Most tuners can do this in that amount of time. No special magic here. Its around $140/hr for both.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Sure I'll answer you, sorry about that.
> 
> About a 2 week leadtime. Plug and play ECU is 1475 normally. I also bought the wideband for the ECU 90$ more. so 1575 normally I did the tax season sale and got 10% off that. so just under 1400$.
> 
> ...


 Good info:thumbup: So you had a pnp ecu from lugtronic in your hands in 2weeks? How long from when it was in your hands until the car was tuned? 

Your math is correct on chip stuff, but there are deals and sales. 

Promaf $350 
Software $150 (huge sale a few months back) 
Lightly used WOT box $100 shipped 
Lightly used AVCR $250 
Wideband and gauge $299? can't remember 
Tuning $0 
Total $1150 

Assume new avcr and wot box and your at $1500. So yeah the costs do get close at the Pro Maf level with the added components. If your paying full price for software then it gets pretty much the same although most get 1/2 off in trade. At that point it will come down to tuning. I didn't have time for it so if I wanted 500whp I would have paid more for PRO MAF than standalone. 

Other thing is standalone is all up front cost wise. A guy can still make 420whp and run 11's w/ $450 in tuning(42# setup). You can add the "boxes" when the $$ is there. They aren't really needed to make passes. 

Thanks for answering:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Good info:thumbup: So you had a pnp ecu from lugtronic in your hands in 2weeks? How long from when it was in your hands until the car was tuned?
> 
> Your math is correct on chip stuff, but there are deals and sales.
> 
> ...


 It looks like they have the same sale going on now so your price is almost right except that your still trying to compare used hardware to new. WOT box is $200 and a AVCR is $480. The total cost of this is much closer then you are trying to make it seem. If you add in a wideband your probably more by using a chip.


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

? 
Where do you see the C2 pro maf software on sale for $150?


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

TIGninja said:


> The total cost of this is much closer...


 Those prices mentioned are just OBD2 related too. 

Let's not forget about the cost and parts needed to do a full/correct OBD1 distributor to OBD2 swap. There is downtime and even labor costs associated with this swap for those who cannot complete the work themselves. To see these 400+ power levels the 42# software is needed for OBD1, OBD1 distributor, and should be an alternative factor here as well.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Why would I need a bigger throttle body? My car is FI. It's called boost:beer:


 You do not understand turbo setups if you think it's all about boost.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Search the 1.8t forums for TB comparisons. I would have never thought an80mm tb on a 1.8t would help but......


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## EugeneDubbin (Aug 31, 2008)

Cheap, Fast, Reliable. 

Pick two. 

/thread.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

We drive VW's, none of those words should be used together.:laugh:


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

If you guys want to talk about deals and sales a used standalone such as dta can be had for a decent price, such as this one that was in the classifieds a while back. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-VR6-w-Innovate-LM1-800-shipped&highlight=dta 
Plug n play harness 
Wide Band 
$800 

Never again will you get pro-maf software brand new on sale for $150.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

We really need to stop comparing used parts to new parts... you can get use SEM too....and why would we even include a wideband?? Its not necessary for either setup for actual comparison, its really a bonus, a wash by comparison. 

.... than the time it takes for you to get your ECU than wait for a tuner etc... serious? how manipulative are we making this comparison? If you're really so anal than setup your tuning time the day after you receive your ECU. This elusive comparison **** is really bothering me.... how about you mention the people who don't understand how to install a chip? etc... and how much they have to pay and wait for someone else to do it....at least its easier for that type of person to unplug an ECU and instaill another one :laugh: 

Lets keep the comparison general and hard facts for needed parts, cut the bullsh*t. Everyone will be slightly different from their personal experience.... if you want to add your personal ability etc. fine, but dont' take it as gospel for everyone else.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

GTijoejoe said:


> .... than the time it takes for you to get your ECU than wait for a tuner etc... serious? how manipulative are we making this comparison? If you're really so anal than setup your tuning time the day after you receive your ECU.


 I think you just called me anal :facepalm::wave::laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> We really need to stop comparing used parts to new parts... you can get use SEM too....and why would we even include a wideband?? Its not necessary for either setup for actual comparison, its really a bonus, a wash by comparison.
> 
> .... than the time it takes for you to get your ECU than wait for a tuner etc... serious? how manipulative are we making this comparison? If you're really so anal than setup your tuning time the day after you receive your ECU. This elusive comparison **** is really bothering me.... how about you mention the people who don't understand how to install a chip? etc... and how much they have to pay and wait for someone else to do it....at least its easier for that type of person to unplug an ECU and instaill another one :laugh:
> 
> Lets keep the comparison general and hard facts for needed parts, cut the bullsh*t. Everyone will be slightly different from their personal experience.... if you want to add your personal ability etc. fine, but dont' take it as gospel for everyone else.


 As far as the wideband goes on alot of the newer standalones the wiring is already there and all you need to do is add a sensor (I think they are like $50 or something). Then the things you can do with the standalone at that point will blow away what the stock ecu can do. Target A/F ratios and auto tuning. It becomes a whole different animal.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

thecorradokid24 said:


> I think you just called me anal :facepalm::wave::laugh:


 hahahaha 

My point is if you are seriously comparing Chip to SEM and its a no go because you need to wait 2-3 more wks to get it tuned, than probably your priorities and build logic don't match eace:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Jeebus said:


> You do not understand turbo setups if you think it's all about boost.


 
I understand that I can make as much power as I'll ever need with it. 

Engineering level knowledge/thought for a project is needed if the end goal of the project requires it. I can make 400-600whp easily with a chip, cams, pistons, rods, exhaust, and boost. 

I've read maximum boost more times than I care to admit. I also take what I'm reading and put it into context. "Ideal" isn't always needed for builds that aren't looking to break records. Proof is in the pudding. There are dozens of things in my turbo setup that aren't ideal. It runs what I want it to and does so reliably so who cares. 

Street cars that never see a track losing sleep over piping length, fin count, # of couplers etc. etc.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Correct. I never addressed the swap. Cost of swap was $400. I'm easily left with ~$400 worth of Corrado parts I could sell. They aren't going anywhere however 

-Ecu 
-Harness 
-MAF 
-Coil 
-Dist w/ new cap and rotor 
-Upper intake mani 
-New O2 sensor 
-OBD1 throttle w new tps 
-Upper timing cover 

Time-Pretty much an entire weekend. 

OBD1 looking for over 300-350w is definitely a harder decision due to the swap. I chose to do it and could not be happier with how the car runs on the street and the track. That's just me. 

Also, let's not forget. You CAN run 11's in a heavy car with just $300 and 10min. The other stuff is nice, but not absolutely needed. For me it was tuning. I personally could do the swap and be up and running in 2 days and never need to tinker, wait for tuners to respond to emails, pay for dyno time, etc. etc. It's worked out exactly like that. :beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> ?
> Where do you see the C2 pro maf software on sale for $150?


 Here you go:beer: 

Back in Aug/Sept. APTuning. Grabbed a promaf 60# chip for 75% off 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-by-APTuning-at-H20!!!!&highlight=united+sale


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> .... than the time it takes for you to get your ECU than wait for a tuner etc... serious? how manipulative are we making this comparison? If you're really so anal than setup your tuning time the day after you receive your ECU. This elusive comparison **** is really bothering me.... how about you mention the people who don't understand how to install a chip? etc... and how much they have to pay and wait for someone else to do it....at least its easier for that type of person to unplug an ECU and instaill another one :laugh:


 Yeah really. IM some people and see how long they waited for ECU's. Things may have changed, but you've never ever seen a thread on here "Has anyone talked to so and so?" Paid him for an ecu X months ago ..... ? 

People don't always post the whole story publicly. Wanting to go racing NOW vs. 3-9months from now is something to consider. Maybe not to you, but to someone else. 

Standalone is more involved. There is no arguing that.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Yeah really. IM some people and see how long they waited for ECU's. Things may have changed, but you've never ever seen a thread on here "Has anyone talked to so and so?" Paid him for an ecu X months ago ..... ?
> 
> People don't always post the whole story publicly. Wanting to go racing NOW vs. 3-9months from now is something to consider. Maybe not to you, but to someone else.
> 
> Standalone is more involved. There is no arguing that.


 Where do you get this 3-9 month? Its just as fast to plug in a plug and play with a lugnuts map and be running just as fast if not faster then a chip. 

Yes I post after every one of your posts. The reason is because you attempt to mislead with every post. Quit trying to BS people. This is completely not true. Even a wire in standalone can be done in a day by anyone who can read a wiring diagram.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Where do you get this 3-9 month? Its just as fast to plug in a plug and play with a lugnuts map and be running just as fast if not faster then a chip.
> 
> Yes I post after every one of your posts. The reason is because you attempt to mislead with every post. Quit trying to BS people. This is completely not true. Even a wire in standalone can be done in a day by anyone who can read a wiring diagram.


 I've wired an entire 034 Ic unit in an MKiv 1.8T in ~6 hrs..... including mounting the ECU in the glove box:thumbup: 
(I pinned out and separated the harness before hand) 

experience helps indeed:wave:


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## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

I have a used SDS in my car. got it dirt cheap years ago. I added a LM1 WB and a 3 step(msd launch control). It was a good choice IMO because the car had nothing but a chassis harness in it, no engine, trans, ect. just a roller. SEM is the first thing that comes to my mind in building a car. Personally, I would take the time to install SEM over sourcing a factory ecm, harness and components to install a chip. IMO having SEM installed when building a car is like money in the bank, being able to tweak as the car evolves, not building the car around a tune. Billet Bill's rado had 3 chips, 3 set of injectors, and several FPR. He couldnt find a happy medium. He then sourced a MegaSquirt SEM and has all kinds of options avalible to him. Not every car is bought at a used car dealer and tweaked, some are built ground up. With that said, sometimes installing and tweaking a SEM is easier than installing the chipped system to see what you end up with.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Lead times quoted are what was told to me 1-2 yrs ago through IM's from certain people(not all) that ordered. If somethings changed or they were lying then that's a possibility. However that's what I was told more than once and that weighed into my obd2 swap decision which has worked out quite well:beer: 

Key word. PERSPECTIVE. You see post after post of guys that post solely from their perspective. It's like tunnel vision. Understand that not everyone has the same perspective as you. This applies to just about everything in life which is why there are about 500 brands/types of every product. 

Yeah we know standalone makes sense for the 22 yr old with $1500 in his pocket, alot of time on his hands, likes to tinker, and is looking to make big power for whatever reason just like it does for the guy looking to run serious times at the track or compete and win events. That's only one market segment however. What about the guy just looking to double the whp of his car for some fun around town. Doesn't have alot of time or money. 30lb inj. and chip-done:beer: The latter would never consider standalone nor should he.eace:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Lead times quoted are what was told to me 1-2 yrs ago through IM's from certain people(not all) that ordered. If somethings changed or they were lying then that's a possibility. However that's what I was told more than once and that weighed into my obd2 swap decision which has worked out quite well:beer:
> 
> Key word. PERSPECTIVE. You see post after post of guys that post solely from their perspective. It's like tunnel vision. Understand that not everyone has the same perspective as you. This applies to just about everything in life which is why there are about 500 brands/types of every product.
> 
> Yeah we know standalone makes sense for the 22 yr old with $1500 in his pocket, alot of time on his hands, likes to tinker, and is looking to make big power for whatever reason just like it does for the guy looking to run serious times at the track or compete and win events. That's only one market segment however. What about the guy just looking to double the whp of his car for some fun around town. Doesn't have alot of time or money. 30lb inj. and chip-done:beer: The latter would never consider standalone nor should he.eace:


 A bunch of BS again. Pulling all this "information" out of your butt is about as useful as your knowledge of what standalone actually does. Useless.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> I understand that I can make as much power as I'll ever need with it.
> 
> Engineering level knowledge/thought for a project is needed if the end goal of the project requires it. I can make 400-600whp easily with a chip, cams, pistons, rods, exhaust, and boost.
> 
> ...


 You need to read it again if you can honestly think this statement is true. 



slcturbo said:


> You don't need a retune with a MAF based chip tune.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Its not true period. Easily making 600whp with a chip is a very long stretch....... the perspective of standalone lead time 1-2 yrs ago being 9months... vs the perspective of 1-2 yrs ago being able to make 500+whp on a "off the shelf" chip was very slim :thumbup: 

Custom chip tunes is venturing into the same perspective of SEM. Custom tune = custom tune. So you can't use that as leverage in this comparsion.... sorry


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

GTijoejoe said:


> Its not true period. Easily making 600whp with a chip is a very long stretch....... the perspective of standalone lead time 1-2 yrs ago being 9months... vs the perspective of 1-2 yrs ago being able to make 500+whp on a "off the shelf" chip was very slim :thumbup:
> 
> Custom chip tunes is venturing into the same perspective of SEM. Custom tune = custom tune. So you can't use that as leverage in this comparsion.... sorry


 Close to 600 whp on a chip has been done, although calling it easy, even on SME is a stretch. However, as stated in other post regarding maf flow, it is scary to think that without a promaf and more than approx mid 400 whp your maf is maxed out and the system is not adding more fuel because your maf volted is maxed out


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Jeebus said:


> You need to read it again if you can honestly think this statement is true.


 I'll do that which would be my 3rd. 

Then I'll read my timeslips which are exactly what I wanted for this car. I'll also read my odometer which says the car has been FI/drag raced for 4 years without one build/FI related issue. 

You should read it again. Note how he mentions ideal alot. Also take note of some of the minute % increases in performance he mentions. 

The "perfect" way isn't needed for modest goals man. Proof is in the pudding:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Its not true period. Easily making 600whp with a chip is a very long stretch....... the perspective of standalone lead time 1-2 yrs ago being 9months... vs the perspective of 1-2 yrs ago being able to make 500+whp on a "off the shelf" chip was very slim :thumbup:
> 
> Custom chip tunes is venturing into the same perspective of SEM. Custom tune = custom tune. So you can't use that as leverage in this comparsion.... sorry


 Allright man change it to 550whp 

Regardless your now talking about a car that should trap over 135 mph. All these cars have parachutes? Full cages? Built everything? Turbos and intercoolers that can support 550whp +? 

The answers to most of those questions by most on here will be a resounding no. 

Your talking about the potential to make race car power(only place your gonna use it) for a majority non race car market. It's a moot point. Most aren't trying to make that power.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

You couldnt make 500whp a year ago with a pro maf tune? 

Sure you could.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> You couldnt make 500whp a year ago with a pro maf tune?
> 
> Sure you could.


 You know what I would like to see? How about an EGT measurement between a chipped vs standalone car running near identical or identical setups. 

We all know high EGT's kill everything. Valves, turbine wheels etc. Im sure your are not too bad slc with a t4 framed turbo, but the average vrt running a t3/t4 with a chip tune I bet runs much higher than a standalone car. High EGT's mean your on borrowed time with any component aftermarket or stock.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> Close to 600 whp on a chip has been done, although calling it easy, even on SME is a stretch. However, as stated in other post regarding maf flow, it is scary to think that without a promaf and more than approx mid 400 whp your maf is maxed out and the system is not adding more fuel because your maf volted is maxed out


 If people knew what the mapping structure of these ECUs they would be terrified to do what they do on a canned chip tune :facepalm:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Dave926 said:


> You know what I would like to see? How about an EGT measurement between a chipped vs standalone car running near identical or identical setups.
> 
> We all know high EGT's kill everything. Valves, turbine wheels etc. Im sure your are not too bad slc with a t4 framed turbo, but the average vrt running a t3/t4 with a chip tune I bet runs much higher than a standalone car. High EGT's mean your on borrowed time with any component aftermarket or stock.


 I used to see around 1200F on my 30# setup set at 12psi. Turbo was a T-3 60 trim with a .82 back housing.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> I'll do that which would be my 3rd.
> 
> Then I'll read my timeslips which are exactly what I wanted for this car. I'll also read my odometer which says the car has been FI/drag raced for 4 years without one build/FI related issue.
> 
> ...


 What the hell does your times slips have to do with anything????? Really, not one person cares about your time slips who's reading this thread, they want facts about Standalone vs Chip tunes. 

You're misleading people by saying that a chip based tune doesn't need to be retuned when you changed parts of the system such as TB, MAF housing, injectors and so on. It's not just simply bolt on whatever you want and the MAF tune just magically works with everything. If you can't agree with that sentence then you're clearly misleading others reading.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Jeebus said:


> What the hell does your times slips have to do with anything????? Really, not one person cares about your time slips who's reading this thread, they want facts about Standalone vs Chip tunes.
> 
> You're misleading people by saying that a chip based tune doesn't need to be retuned when you changed parts of the system such as TB, MAF housing, injectors and so on. It's not just simply bolt on whatever you want and the MAF tune just magically works with everything. If you can't agree with that sentence then you're clearly misleading others reading.


 Dude what are you talking about? A timeslip with a trap speed is a fact! It's what the car actually does vs. half truthed engineering BS given to you 3rd hand by people who aren't engineers and don't understand what they're talking about. Is a builds purpose to theorize about it or for it to actually perform? 

Hundreds on here have chipped cars running very well and making 300-580whp. Most of those cars run very well. There are many that are happy with their decision. That's what I'm saying. What exactly is the problem with that? I mean what is this ridiculous argument about? My point has nothing to do with standalone. I don't have a standalone car and don't want one. 

MAF housing, injectors, TB? I mean really? I told someone they dont need a retune when changing those things?:laugh: Cams, port, exhaust, turbo, etc. You don't need a retune. On standalone you do.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Jeebus said:


> What the hell does your times slips have to do with anything? .


 They have to do with everything sir when the people that continue to argue with me either haven't posted any or have slower ones than mine. 

Don't you see how ridiculous that is? 

It's like a guy telling me to buy his book on how to become a millionaire when he's broke and lives in a cardboard box. 

I don't need or want standalone, but if the people in this thread running their mouth about it day in and day out actually had fast cars then I might actually listen to what they had to say. See my point:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> You know what I would like to see? How about an EGT measurement between a chipped vs standalone car running near identical or identical setups.
> 
> We all know high EGT's kill everything. Valves, turbine wheels etc. Im sure your are not too bad slc with a t4 framed turbo, but the average vrt running a t3/t4 with a chip tune I bet runs much higher than a standalone car. High EGT's mean your on borrowed time with any component aftermarket or stock.


 Fair question, but again you are making assumptions that you have not proven. "You'll bet" etc. etc. Just like my IC is far inferior to the precision unit that the guy with virtually the same setup is running and his car is slower. 

Give me something non biased and concrete. I bring up timeslips bc they are as tangible as they come. "I bet" really means nothing. Get two cars with the exact same setup and do a test. Otherwise all you can go on is results. I don't know one chipped vrt that's melting/burning anything if it's maintained correctly and boosted as intended.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> They have to do with everything sir when the people that continue to argue with me either haven't posted any or have slower ones than mine.
> 
> Don't you see how ridiculous that is?
> 
> ...


 Ok big hitter post up your time slip (the whole slip).


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Track times have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.  

For those reading, if you take this guys views and decide to start swapping out all kinds of stuff on your MAF Based chip tune like MAF housing, injectors, throttle body, you're going to be sadly disappointed when it doesn't run right. 

Chip tunes have a time and place, and have helped involve the VAG community. However if you want to go as fast as you can, and want your car to run the best it can on a custom setup then standalone is always going to come on top. 

Until slcturbo runs standalone he will never know the difference.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Jeebus said:


> *Track times have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation*.
> 
> For those reading, if you take this guys views and decide to start swapping out all kinds of stuff on your MAF Based chip tune like MAF housing, injectors, throttle body, you're going to be sadly disappointed when it doesn't run right.
> 
> ...


 Yeah. Never said you could change a MAF housing, TB, or injectors and run the same chip. What your doing is distorting my argument because you can't argue with the points I've actually made. Strawman fallacy is what it's called. Free education for you:beer: 

This is too funny:laugh: 

These are your statements. 
1)"Track times have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation." 

2)"However if you want to go as fast as you can" 

See anything contradictory there? Where are we talking about going fast? I mean I trap 129mph and you're telling me I need standalone so where would I use it if not the track? We talking 150mph highway pulls? Against the law and just plain stupid:thumbdown: 

And once again. No one is arguing that a full blown standalone car tuned properly isn't going to have more potential. The argument is whether or not it's worth it.1) Can your setup support it 2) Do you need the power 3) Have the time and $$ needed. 

As to the run the best your car can point. I realize this isn't everyone's experience but my car really does run OE on the 42#. Not one stumble, hesitation, perfect idle etc. FWIW I think my setup is very similar to Mr. Atwoods. I believe he ran DSR 256 cams as well as a T4.69.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Ok big hitter post up your time slip (the whole slip).


 Will do as I've done for 5 years straight. 

There are faster cars, but let them make the point that standalone was needed for what they have accomplished. Blabbering on about standalone to spin wheels on the street makes me think you just wanted standalone. I spun wheels on the street for $300 on the 30#.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

After all guys , we all know the only thing that matters is how fast your car is. Part throttle driveability is of no concern since we all drive around at WOT.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The whole point is power and control of that power right? The end result is by the time you buy all your boxes and fixes and things you have spent as much money as a decent standalone. You make less power then you could have for this money and have less control.If the price of standalone was so high that it was beyond the reach of the enthusiast then you would be right,but your not. 

You ended up buying all those add on boxes because the chip tune does not have the capability to do whats needed and for you to do more you would need more boxes which in turn will cost you more.There are so many things you could do if you had standalone that you dont even know about yet. 

Its time for you to realize that you dont know anything about standalone and really are not qualified to make the comparison.


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

One thing you are forgetting though. We can pull up to an inspection station and pass with doing nothing. 
You can not. :facepalm:


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> One thing you are forgetting though. We can pull up to an inspection station and pass with doing nothing.
> You can not. :facepalm:


 

are you making 400plus whp with the stock cat inline ?? 

most people round here not just vr6t bolt the cat back in for the test and remove after to make the power


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

.therealvrt said:


> After all guys , we all know the only thing that matters is how fast your car is. Part throttle driveability is of no concern since we all drive around at WOT.


 ahh, yeah.. quarter mile at a time :screwy:


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

Im obd2 I don't need the stock cat, heck i don't even have the secondary o2 sensor. They just plug in the port and all readiness codes are good. I made 515whp and can go straight from the dyno to an inspection station. In my opinion there is nothing better than that. 
:thumbup: for chip tunes.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

vwgolfracer26 said:


> Im obd2 I don't need the stock cat, heck i don't even have the secondary o2 sensor. They just plug in the port and all readiness codes are good. I made 515whp and can go straight from the dyno to an inspection station. In my opinion there is nothing better than that.
> :thumbup: for chip tunes.


 
i am running the same turbo and boost as you but i am custom tune obd1 i too have no codes but i am sure i would need to bolt on the cat to pass emissions test


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Megasquirt is only 140 bucks for a kit


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

And the emulator and burner to tune OBD1 cars is cheap and yet people still eat this canned chip tune stuff up like its the best thing ever.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Technically the chip tune is only legal if it has an E.O. # on it. In majority of states it is illegal to modify or change emissions equipment. How many of you guys are running legal cats, smog pumps and EGR solenoids. 

If the inspector lifts the hood and sees all that turbo **** and does not reject you, he/she is at a huge risk of losing their license.


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## EugeneDubbin (Aug 31, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> If people knew what the mapping structure of these ECUs they would be terrified to do what they do on a canned chip tune :facepalm:


 

This. There is a good amount of info on how its actually done, and learning about how chip flashes kill off almost all your sensors (which are there for a damn good reason) in order to trick the ECU into thinking its seeing proper values while tweaking timing and fuel maps way beyond their capability is why I ordered Lugtronic. And it's cheaper in the long run. 

I like having live, working sensors that provide realtime feedback, not scaled 'information' that's supposed to be accurate.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Huh? Actually the only sensor that gets killed off in the chip tunes is possibly O2 sensors and the TPS pretty much gets eliminated in the C2 software (atleast the stuff I have looked at chip file wise). When I tune the ECUs I use all fuel and timing maps to keep the TPS function. 

Another problem (or plus if you know how to retune) is the full throttle maps. This basically takes all sensors out of the loop when the throttle goes full. Its a 2d map thats 1/16 and its really easy to tune. This can however make things kinda switchy between part and full throttle.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> After all guys , we all know the only thing that matters is how fast your car is. Part throttle driveability is of no concern since we all drive around at WOT.


 But my car drives perfectly at part throttle and so do most using the software I'm using


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> If people knew what the mapping structure of these ECUs they would be terrified to do what they do on a canned chip tune :facepalm:


 The sky is falling and chip tunes do it all wrong, but how come the cars aren't blowing up? 

Take away the pos cars, faulty installs, irresponsible owners running too much boost for their setup etc. and your left with umm well quite frankly not one car that I know of blowing up on chip tunes. I've hot lapped my car in near 100 degree weather at the track on a turbo that's not all that efficient especially at 20psi, a ebay IC that's too small, and A/F leaned out to mid-high 12's for max power. No issues. That's on 2 different chip tunes. 

They work man. It doesn't mean standalone doesn't. It's almost like you get insulted when someone is happy with a chip tune. It must be very frustrating for you. 

Give up the crusade


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The whole point is power and control of that power right? The end result is by the time you buy all your boxes and fixes and things you have spent as much money as a decent standalone. You make less power then you could have for this money and have less control.If the price of standalone was so high that it was beyond the reach of the enthusiast then you would be right,but your not.
> 
> You ended up buying all those add on boxes because the chip tune does not have the capability to do whats needed and for you to do more you would need more boxes which in turn will cost you more.There are so many things you could do if you had standalone that you dont even know about yet.
> 
> Its time for you to realize that you dont know anything about standalone and really are not qualified to make the comparison.


 Yes and no. I had no "boxes" on my car other than a wideband and I was running 11.8's in a ~2700lb car. I also didn't have to tune anything. Wideband w gauge + $300 chip does not equal standalone time or $$ wise. I also enjoyed racing the car every other week vs. saving $2k for a pnp ems and tuning. Add ons were preference and done over a period of 4 yrs. I didn't need the $$ up front. 

I don't need to understand how to tune a car to give my opinion on a chip tune and use logic to deduce the fact that at least on a VR most non race cars can make as much power as they'll ever need without standalone. 

I think it's time you realize that chips work for many which is why companies sell them. There is a market there like it or not. 

*Chips can reliably double(obd1) or almost triple (obd2) a 12V's whp for $300-$450 and 10 min(tuning wise). Your car can be up and running next day*. Standalone has many advantages, but cannot touch whats in bold.:beer:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

After dealing with 5 different Supercharged VR6 cars that have run the almighty chip tunes from for slcturbo's view and every one of them has washed down the cyl walls. Part throttle is junk, wot is not so bad but the air fuels are to total hell. 10.0 on tip in, then 15.0 near redline. The common response I have heard time and time again is that it is a hardware problem. Yet programs only work as good as the data going in. A standalone unit has a higher resolution and more abilities to control the inputs. 

Standalone is not for everyone, neither is a PNP chip. 

Steve you might have a fast car in a straight line. But that is not all that a lot of us are after when it comes to building cars. I personally have a block that a C2 chip killed due to the fuel and throttle maps being off, part throttle and tip in absolutely sucked to the point that the car was dangerous to drive as it was unpredictable of what it was going to do when you requested more power or less (insert favorite video of fire breathing 930 giving the driver a thrashing here) 

I still remember you did not listen to me about the belt tension on your blower then it promptly blew up. 

Everything you change has an effect on the tune, from air flow to density to fluid and thermodynamics. Standalone the the best way to be able to make adjustments for little tweaks here or there to make the car run better and faster.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Yes and no. I had no "boxes" on my car other than a wideband and I was running 11.8's in a ~2700lb car. I also didn't have to tune anything. Wideband w gauge + $300 chip does not equal standalone time or $$ wise. I also enjoyed racing the car every other week vs. saving $2k for a pnp ems and tuning. Add ons were preference and done over a period of 4 yrs. I didn't need the $$ up front.
> 
> I don't need to understand how to tune a car to give my opinion on a chip tune and use logic to deduce the fact that at least on a VR most non race cars can make as much power as they'll ever need without standalone.
> 
> ...


 Can being the key word here. People get anywhere from great results like yours to a car that wont even idle. There are people here on this forum that had the poor running cars that wouldnt run well on the chip and they run just fine with the same parts on standalone. The problem is the chip doesnt work as well on some cars. Standalone will give you the best results for your perticular car no matter what you have.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

This car seems to run great. I mean Im sure the owner gets in and turns the key, so it must be good? 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...dyno-run-holset-hx-35&p=70727339#post70727339 

Lean tip in (~16.5:1, peaks at ~18.0:1), 12.8 to 13.1 during spool up and then dumps fuel to 11.5 or on the top end around 5200 rpm 

****ty afr curve if you ask me, and a bit dangerous for a stock engine. This is exactly what my friend's obd2 vrt did, and he was using a 50 trim, not a hx35.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DeckManDubs said:


> After dealing with 5 different Supercharged VR6 cars that have run the almighty chip tunes from for slcturbo's view and every one of them has washed down the cyl walls. Part throttle is junk, wot is not so bad but the air fuels are to total hell. 10.0 on tip in, then 15.0 near redline. The common response I have heard time and time again is that it is a hardware problem. Yet programs only work as good as the data going in. A standalone unit has a higher resolution and more abilities to control the inputs.
> 
> Standalone is not for everyone, neither is a PNP chip.
> 
> ...


 -FI is for power period. Trap speed and dyno tells that story. FI doesn't improve the handling or braking of a car so yeah in this forum straight line is much more relevant. If you dont want more power/go faster why are you putting FI on a car? 

-SC VR. Stop there. The chips being discussed were not tuned on SC cars. Use at your own risk. 

-I listened to VF's belt tension guidelines, not yours. The SC blowing up was the best thing that ever happened to me. They warrantied it, sold it, and paid for most of my turbo setup 

For the 5 millionth time now. *I UNDERSTAND STANDALONE HAS MORE POTENTIAL AND ADJUSTABILITY.* 

My point is and always has been that most don't need the benefits it offers. The cost is not worth the benefit for non race cars IMO* IF* a $300-$350 chip allows you to reach your goals.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Can being the key word here. People get anywhere from great results like yours to a car that wont even idle. There are people here on this forum that had the poor running cars that wouldnt run well on the chip and they run just fine with the same parts on standalone. The problem is the chip doesnt work as well on some cars. Standalone will give you the best results for your perticular car no matter what you have.


 For every chipped car that "doesn't work" I'll show you a standalone car that runs like garbage because it wasn't tuned right. But, But, But. But nothing. Some people can't install a chip properly and you want them to learn to tune a car. 

You talk like it's 50/50 with a chip tune. At least with obd2 VR stuff more like 98/2. I've ran at the track with too many 42# cars to know the stuff works almost all the time on properly built cars. 

Cost vs. Benefit. The time and $$ investment in SEMS is simply not worth it for many. 

We're arguing 2 different points. Your making a redundant point that a $2k SEMS setup tuned by a professional tuner is going to outperform a canned chip tune. NO SHT. We get it. 

My point is that most people don't need/can't support the capability of a standalone setup. This forum is skewed to the tinker/power obsessed/dyno status seeker. There's a whole world out there of guys that are fine with 300-500whp and the simplicity a chip provides.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> This car seems to run great. I mean Im sure the owner gets in and turns the key, so it must be good?
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...dyno-run-holset-hx-35&p=70727339#post70727339
> 
> Lean tip in (~16.5:1, peaks at ~18.0:1), 12.8 to 13.1 during spool up and then dumps fuel to 11.5 or on the top end around 5200 rpm
> ...


 That sucks. Mine runs perfect as does every other VRT I've been in/raced with running the obd2 42# tune. 

I'll post my dyno and then you can hyper analyze that as well while I'm out racing the car without issue.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> For every chipped car that "doesn't work" I'll show you a standalone car that runs like garbage because it wasn't tuned right. But, But, But. But nothing. Some people can't install a chip properly and you want them to learn to tune a car.
> 
> You talk like it's 50/50 with a chip tune. At least with obd2 VR stuff more like 98/2. I've ran at the track with too many 42# cars to know the stuff works almost all the time on properly built cars.
> 
> ...


 You dont even know what the benefits are so why are you the self appointed expert on engine management? I dont get you.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

It looks like the ignore user function is working well... :bs:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> That sucks. Mine runs perfect as does every other VRT I've been in/raced with running the obd2 42# tune.
> 
> I'll post my dyno and then you can hyper analyze that as well while I'm out racing the car without issue.


Hyper analyze? Car appears to run fine, but it is not by the numbers. Ask any tuner in the world if this is a safe AFR curve. Its not, never will be especially for a stock block engine.

When you post your dyno, make sure it includes the AFR curve please along with boost pressure. 

This is a thread about power, not slips really not sure why you keep bringing that up.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Hyper analyze? Car appears to run fine, but it is not by the numbers. Ask any tuner in the world if this is a safe AFR curve. Its not, never will be especially for a stock block engine.
> 
> When you post your dyno, make sure it includes the AFR curve please along with boost pressure.
> 
> This is a thread about power, not slips really not sure why you keep bringing that up.


I will do that.

It's about what each person thinks it's about.

Power=Made but not necessarily used. Tells you nothing about how the car performs.

ET/TRAP= Tangible objective data about how they car actually performs in a straight line. Much more relevant IMO.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

ET/trap has to many variables in it to exactly tell whats getting you there.

You just can't say: I made that ET/trap because of my chip.

Variables? track conditions, ambient temp, the weather, driver skills, gearbox ratio's, weight of car, weight balance of car, tyres used, clutch used, drivetrain setup, chassis reinforcements etc etc.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

Dave926 said:


> This car seems to run great. I mean Im sure the owner gets in and turns the key, so it must be good?
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...dyno-run-holset-hx-35&p=70727339#post70727339
> 
> Lean tip in (~16.5:1, peaks at ~18.0:1), 12.8 to 13.1 during spool up and then dumps fuel to 11.5 or on the top end around 5200 rpm
> ...


a chip tune will always run best at wot with a turbo 
i found that during spool it is still fighting to keep 14.7 afr with the 02 because the ecu is not used to seeing any boost in cruising ranges


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> I will do that.
> 
> It's about what each person thinks it's about.
> 
> ...


At WOT. Your trap speed still has little to do with this thread. Where do you see here we are talking about slicks vs radials, suspension setup etc? All a slip indicates is how well your using that power.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

pimS said:


> ET/trap has to many variables in it to exactly tell whats getting you there.
> 
> You just can't say: I made that ET/trap because of my chip.
> 
> Variables? track conditions, ambient temp, the weather, driver skills, gearbox ratio's, weight of car, weight balance of car, tyres used, clutch used, drivetrain setup, chassis reinforcements etc etc.


Sure it does, but ET/trap is alot more relevant than power. Power tells you nothing about what the car is putting to the ground. 

Don't drag race? Then why are you making big power in a fwd?


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Mayb because i wan't to have fun?
If i wan't to drive a 400hp fwd car on the road it's my own choise, Doesn't matter is you think thats logic or not, i like it.

+ roads over here are ten times better 
+ Autobahn is only 1.5 hours away
+ I like messing with exotics


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> At WOT. Your trap speed still has little to do with this thread. Where do you see here we are talking about slicks vs radials, suspension setup etc? All a slip indicates is how well your using that power.


Car traps 129mph on street tires. 128.x on slicks. No real difference. 

It has everything to do with the thread. It's a comparison and I'm throwing up real world performance #'s in the face of people that run slower than me and ramble on and on about how my intercooler doesn't have enough turbulators:beer: See the hypocrisy?

Are there standalone cars that make my times look slow? Sure there are, but let them say it. At least they're using the power they spent so much time and $$ to make.

The issue is many are stuck on the "IDEAL" way to do everything when what they're using the car for doesn't require it. Someone mentioned Corky Bell's book. Read it again and note some of the extremely small % gains/losses he talks about. It's not black and white. 

Analogy. I'm a hockey player playing with guys with beer guts in a beer league. Is a $220 composite hockey stick "ideal". Absolutely. Will a $20 wooden stick do just fine at that level of play? Absolutely. Same argument with the intercoolers, sri, SEMS. Sure they're better, but is your setup capable of taking advantage and are you actually using the power for something more than a dyno.

It's like a fantasy world where everyone has a 9 sec. car competing in national sport compact events. Most of these are street cars just looking to have some fun on the street/track. The setup doesn't have to be "ideal" for that.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

pimS said:


> Mayb because i wan't to have fun?
> If i wan't to drive a 400hp fwd car on the road it's my own choise, Doesn't matter is you think thats logic or not, i like it.
> 
> + roads over here are ten times better
> ...


Makes more sense if you have the Autobahn close

Right. It is your choice. Just like if someone wants to build a budget setup and stop at a logical level of power for what they use the car for then that's their choice right?

Righteace:


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

pimS said:


> Mayb because i wan't to have fun?
> 
> + I like messing with exotics


This guy gets it :laugh::thumbup::beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> Ok big hitter post up your time slip (the whole slip).


 So how about that time slip???


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

magner said:


> a chip tune will always run best at wot with a turbo
> i found that during spool it is still fighting to keep 14.7 afr with the 02 because the ecu is not used to seeing any boost in cruising ranges


He was seeing 18:1 before there was _any_ boost. That is not acceptable. 

@SLC, the only real world results that are relevant in this thread are dyno numbers, and driveability. Your car might drive great, and feel good. Im not denying you on that, and for a daily its passible. My problem is the reputed ****ed up AFR's Ive heard about with c2 stuff and confirmed with this dyno and my friends, along with the excessively retarded ign. timing in their maps. Corradokid proved that with his lugtronic setup.

After my experience with Digi 1 and chip flipping, C2 on my friend's VRT, and MS1 I really like standalone. Im having some issues with MS at the moment, but truth be told I like to tinker. MS lets me do that, and can keep me entertained for hours. The sense of accomplishment I feel whenever the car runs is incredible.

Also I just hooked up my launch control.....cost me $5 in resistors and diodes:thumbup: I could do boost control for a little bit more too, and shape the boost curve how I want.:laugh:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

pimS said:


> Mayb because i wan't to have fun?
> If i wan't to drive a 400hp fwd car on the road it's my own choise, Doesn't matter is you think thats logic or not, i like it.
> 
> + roads over here are ten times better
> ...


Whole point IMHO of having a big power economy car:thumbup:

O and **** you for having the autobahn:laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

billyVR6 said:


> It looks like the ignore user function is working well... :bs:


:laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> So how about that time slip???


Here is mine. You will notice that I had a decent 1/8 plus but my low boost by gear settings were set for not getting kicked out  We have only had this car on the track a couple of times and have been working on putting the power to the ground. There is alot more left in this set up and I have been building for about a year now so its pretty new set up. 










Here are a couple of dynos of the car as well. We could have pushed it alot more but the fuel pump didnt have any more left in it. I will be upgrading pump and injectors in the next few weeks and we are going to see if we can get this thing over 500whp. This is a ABA BTW.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Dave926 said:


> Whole point IMHO of having a big power economy car:thumbup:
> 
> O and **** you for having the autobahn:laugh:


:laugh:

I've done numerous 150mph+ runs, but with the chip it's more like pray and keep your foot down.
Standalone could give me the control i want and need.
There's a realy big chance of me getting LugT after i finish my to-do list


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Oh yeah, if got that 60 ft down your ET would improve a lot. I figured that out the first time on slicks, went from a 13.1 car at 107mph to a consistant sub 11.8 car with 116+ traps. Nice power too.:thumbup: ABA, who knew?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

pimS said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I've done numerous 150mph+ runs, but with the chip it's more like pray and keep your foot down.
> Standalone could give me the control i want and need.
> There's a realy big chance of me getting LugT after i finish my to-do list


I want to try lugnuts, but I just don't have the cash for it. Maybe after my next deployment... Chips do work though, they just leave a lot to be desired IMHO. I am still going to use the 42# setup I got and see what happens. I won't go lugtronic without first putting a real turbo behind my motor.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I want to try lugnuts, but I just don't have the cash for it. Maybe after my next deployment... Chips do work though, they just leave a lot to be desired IMHO. I am still going to use the 42# setup I got and see what happens. I won't go lugtronic without first putting a real turbo behind my motor.


My T04e still has some reserves in it, but there's a chance i'll be upgrading to a T67 this year.
I really need to start building a motor

And see if my trans keeps it in 1 piece, upgrading to a 02A/02S 6speed diesel swap.
190mph+ @ redline in 6th:what:


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

I'd kill to get EGT data from your car on a WOT autobahn pull.

I could set the car up that you could make a 5 minute long WOT pull and it wouldn't blow up.

Boost reduction over an EGT or IAT threshold, Fuel addition over an EGT threshold, warning light for lean fuel, etc etc. Sounds fun to me.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

lugnuts said:


> I'd kill to get EGT data from your car on a WOT autobahn pull.
> 
> I could set the car up that you could make a 5 minute long WOT pull and it wouldn't blow up.
> 
> Boost reduction over an EGT or IAT threshold, Fuel addition over an EGT threshold, warning light for lean fuel, etc etc. Sounds fun to me.


You can do this with a chip?
:laugh:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Texas mile anyone, lol.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Thisis probably where the extra money for your stuff make ms


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## EugeneDubbin (Aug 31, 2008)

lugnuts said:


> I'd kill to get EGT data from your car on a WOT autobahn pull.
> 
> I could set the car up that you could make a 5 minute long WOT pull and it wouldn't blow up.
> 
> Boost reduction over an EGT or IAT threshold, Fuel addition over an EGT threshold, warning light for lean fuel, etc etc. Sounds fun to me.



@pimS: Please get Kevin the data somehow  You'll be my hero! There must be video!


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

lugnuts said:


> I'd kill to get EGT data from your car on a WOT autobahn pull.
> 
> I could set the car up that you could make a 5 minute long WOT pull and it wouldn't blow up.
> 
> Boost reduction over an EGT or IAT threshold, Fuel addition over an EGT threshold, warning light for lean fuel, etc etc. Sounds fun to me.


On a lugtronic i presume?

A could do a 2min+ WOT run on that highway nearby, Checkrun first to see if there are no cops @ 3AM or so.


the autobahn is to busy most of the time to stay WOT for some minutes

Look @ the vid, road should be long enough 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBbg9mSrWtU&feature=player_detailpage#t=107s


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

pimS said:


> On a lugtronic i presume?
> 
> A could do a 2min+ WOT run on that highway nearby, Checkrun first to see if there are no cops @ 3AM or so.
> 
> ...


fixed link :beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I want to try lugnuts, but I just don't have the cash for it. Maybe after my next deployment... Chips do work though, they just leave a lot to be desired IMHO. I am still going to use the 42# setup I got and see what happens. I won't go lugtronic without first putting a real turbo behind my motor.


Smart man. Go standalone if and when your goals/build require/support it.:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Smart man. Go standalone if and when your goals/build require/support it.:beer:


Yea buy twice. That always saves money


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Yea buy twice. That always saves money


:laugh: You're really on a crusade:wave:

Saves a whole lotta money if you never end up needing the capabilities that standalone provides.

No cage/bar, no built trans/motor, no big turbo/IC, no audobahn, no drag race aspirations? Then you dont need standalone.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> :laugh: You're really on a crusade:wave:
> 
> Saves a whole lotta money if you never end up needing the capabilities that standalone provides.
> 
> No cage/bar, no built trans/motor, no big turbo/IC, no audobahn, no drag race aspirations? Then you dont need standalone.


You have half the posts in this thread. Do you realize this? :laugh:

you have 19 of the last 62 posts in this forum. Whos on a crusade?


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> Yea buy twice. That always saves money


Well, I am sorry I can't be one of the cool kids.... You know I can sell the 42# stuff when I am ready, I am not buying twice. Buy your logic everyone with a VRT that blows the stock trans is stupid because they didn't buy a bada$$ gears set or swap in a O2M.... When I first came on here asking about getting a turbo kit, everyone said build what you can afford and you will be happy. I did, I ended up with C2 and have been having a lot of fun. I saw the thread about a 9 percent power gain on the same car switching to Lugtonic. Guess he is an idiot also because he bought the pro maf software first andcreated the single most informative thread I have ever read on this forum.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Well, I am sorry I can't be one of the cool kids.... You know I can sell the 42# stuff when I am ready, I am not buying twice. Buy your logic everyone with a VRT that blows the stock trans is stupid because they didn't buy a bada$$ gears set or swap in a O2M.... When I first came on here asking about getting a turbo kit, everyone said build what you can afford and you will be happy. I did, I ended up with C2 and have been having a lot of fun. I saw the thread about a 9 percent power gain on the same car switching to Lugtonic. Guess he is an idiot also because he bought the pro maf software first andcreated the single most informative thread I have ever read on this forum.


This is more along the lines of buying a gearset the might work any trying it, Then swapping in a O2m when it doesnt.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

It's whatever man, just forget it.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> You have half the posts in this thread. Do you realize this? :laugh:
> 
> you have 19 of the last 62 posts in this forum. Whos on a crusade?



I wont post for days, but as soon as a post you'll quote it within the hour:laugh: Internet stalker comes to mind.

:beer:To having that much of a life to count how many posts I've made in the last 62. You must have alot going on:laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> It's whatever man, just forget it.


I would prefer that you didn't. Guys like this patrol forums and attempt to stomp out opposing arguments with sheer persistence. Borderline insane? Yes. When they start losing they'll distort your argument to attempt to gain support from others who don't read the whole thread. "Yeah let's get em, slc is saying standalone is bad!" There are plenty of these guys on this website. Bust their balls every chance you get. 

If a person really likes their setup decisions there is no way they have so much issue with people that do things differently. They likely got their ego bruised at some point. I have an 11.7-12.8 fan club so I have to assume it's the ET at least in part

Oh and fyi, your quicker than him too on a stock motor 30# chip tuneeace:


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I saw the thread about a 9 percent power gain on the same car switching to Lugtonic. Guess he is an idiot also because he bought the pro maf software first and created the single most informative thread I have ever read on this forum.


:thumbup: I tried to go the easy/cheaper route, it just didn't work for me. Glad to know the information is helping people.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> I would prefer that you didn't. Guys like this patrol forums and attempt to stomp out opposing arguments with sheer persistence. Borderline insane? Yes. When they start losing they'll distort your argument to attempt to gain support from others who don't read the whole thread. "Yeah let's get em, slc is saying standalone is bad!" There are plenty of these guys on this website. Bust their balls every chance you get.
> 
> If a person really likes their setup decisions there is no way they have so much issue with people that do things differently. They likely got their ego bruised at some point. I have an 11.7-12.8 fan club so I have to assume it's the ET at least in part
> 
> Oh and fyi, your quicker than him too on a stock motor 30# chip tuneeace:


I am tired of this, I am not going to join anyones crusade. I am going to do what I want ayway.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> Oh and fyi, your quicker than him too on a stock motor 30# chip tuneeace:


But I don't rub it in peoples faces, thats why people don't like you.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Can you homos do us all a favor and stop this bull****.. Please.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Who, me? No one forced you to click on this thread bro. Though there has been ish tons of BS in here, this thread has had some great info by the OP and others.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> But I don't rub it in peoples faces, thats why people don't like you.


Don't need you to join my crusade and I can explain how little I care about who does or doesn't like me on an internet forum.

FYI, I rub it in the faces of people that choose to follow my posts and bust my balls.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

Ok so where are pics or a build thread for the end all be all corrado??
or a dyno chart....????
and don't post your stupid 1/4 mile slips...we have all seen them and heard you spout off about them time and again.
we know you live a 1/4 mile at a time Vin Diesel
or is it to ugly and held together with hockey Tape???

The World is waiting..............................:wave:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Salsa GTI said:


> Ok so where are pics or a build thread for the end all be all corrado??
> or a dyno chart....????
> and don't post your stupid 1/4 mile slips...we have all seen them and heard you spout off about them time and again.
> we know you live a 1/4 mile at a time Vin Diesel
> ...


Me? Too funny. Again this is why people keep hearing about my car. There seems to be a line of guys wanting to talk about it:facepalm:

Why are my slips stupid?:laugh: They're more relevant than a dyno any day of the week. Real performance vs. a piece of paper.

-made 319whp at 12psi. No dyno at 20psi yet, but with a 129mph trap speed it's making 400 easy 42# dyno coming soon..

-hockey tape? My car? Not perfect, but I used to show it. 3 shows, 1st, 3rd, didn't place. Barking up the wrong tree there:beer:

Any more questions feel free to IM. Or we can talk about my car here:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Also, plenty of hatespeech on the 1/4 mile times.

Again I list them because they're objective which is > someone's biased opinion everytime. You don't have to drag race or even care about it to be able to look at a cars trap speed and infer the power it's making as well as how it performs on the street.

Pick up a car and driver, road and track, etc. and see what traps over 130mph. Almost nothing. Think you can't have fun with exotics with a chip tune?:bs: and the numbers prove it.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Also, plenty of hatespeech on the 1/4 mile times.
> 
> Again I list them because they're objective which is > someone's biased opinion everytime. You don't have to drag race or even care about it to be able to look at a cars trap speed and infer the power it's making as well as how it performs on the street.
> 
> Pick up a car and driver, road and track, etc. and see what traps over 130mph. Almost nothing. Think you can't have fun with exotics with a chip tune?:bs: and the numbers prove it.


You list them to feed your own ego. I dont really consider my car that fast yet and I am almost as fast you. :laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> You list them to feed your own ego. I dont really consider my car that fast yet and I am almost as fast you. :laugh:


Nah. Bragging about an 11.490 when people run 9's in these cars? Doesn't make sense. I don't consider my car that "fast" either. I just know it's fast enough for me.

I list it because it's a comparison thread. The ET and trap are objective data. "my car did this on the highway vs. a Porsche" is pretty worthless to someone reading a thread and trying to decide what method of tuning to go with.

A whole 25 min. after I posted. You're getting better:beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Salsa GTI said:


> l
> or is it to ugly and held together with hockey Tape???


No, but mine is. Zip ties also, lol.:beer:


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

GinsterMan98 said:


> No, but mine is. Zip ties also, lol.:beer:


LOl....now back on topic.......



slcturbo said:


> Also, plenty of hatespeech on the 1/4 mile times.
> 
> Again I list them because they're objective which is > someone's biased opinion everytime. You don't have to drag race or even care about it to be able to look at a cars trap speed and infer the power it's making as well as how it performs on the street.
> 
> Pick up a car and driver, road and track, etc. and see what traps over 130mph. Almost nothing. Think you can't have fun with exotics with a chip tune?:bs: and the numbers prove it.


Well this thread was...was about Stand alone VS PNP software....driveability power curves and such not 1/4 mile times Vin.........
again...because your deaf...
1/4 mile time is this...........
Power to weight ratio......
traction applied to pavement to provide forward motion...
good knowlage of vehicle driven to get launch and shift points perfect to minimise time and maximise speed.......
and a small dose of arodynamics
Yes ? No?
well its yes...so...
what does this have to do with drivability? 
not much...if it runs good balls to the wall..its good for the drag strip...
if it rev hangs...stalls after boost..doesnt idle correctly...drives poorly part throttle or at boost tip in ...gets lousy fuel economy....you wont know any of this from a time slip..
Yes your car is maximized for what your using it for..but this is not everyone... 
other people use there cars in different ways..
the differances are not all about max power or the highest dyno numbers
some people just want to drive there cars like they were stock...but with more power...
we know your car runs great for you...so be happy 
Stand Alone is not for you.....You dont want it..and dont need it
some people have different setups..want different things from there cars..or are pushing inefficiant turbos past there happy spot..or are running to large a turbo under its happy place....
theyre are cars that have no proper solution for them....there are those that want silly power

And I used to love going to the drag strip....but only on test and tune day or night...or street racing format night...the whole points chase or traveling to race at other track thing always escaped me...i helped out on a Comp. Eliminator team..went to Canada Florida Georga...bla bla
run for a few seconds...sit for hours..to di it again....spend all weekend doing this..hurry up and wait...break stuff..fix it do it again...
not for me...even thoe i have a shoe box full fo time cards..yes cards from the 80's hand written cards.....i stopped in the 80's...dont care about it..i dont go in the drag racing forum...Team Tape has several cars...i dont go with them...i just have better things to do...
Sorry Kevin and Paul...i just hate organized drag racing...there I said it.....
so lets just post facts and tuning problems and solutions for both styles of engine managment..not just yell at each other...it proves nothing and helps no one


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

GinsterMan98 said:


> Who, me? No one forced you to click on this thread bro. Though there has been ish tons of BS in here, this thread has had some great info by the OP and others.


I was mostly referring to slc and all his bum buddies with whom he keeps flirting while swinging on C2s balls.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> I was mostly referring to slc and all his bum buddies with whom he keeps flirting while swinging on C2s balls.


Hater:laugh:

I'll state my opinion and objective data about my car when I see fit. More often if given a hard time about it.

Chips have worked extremely well for me. I trap 129mph in a 2730# car on a simple setup. The fact that that pisses people off speaks to how fragile the human ego can be. You dont have to put anyone down, insult them, nothing. Just state your results and people will hate you for it:screwy: Must suck to go through life like that...

Next. I like talking about my car


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> I was mostly referring to slc and all his bum buddies with whom he keeps flirting while swinging on C2s balls.


Lastly. The Leafs suck:laugh:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Hater:laugh:
> 
> I'll state my opinion and objective data about my car when I see fit. More often if given a hard time about it.
> 
> ...


Everyone that cares about your car already knows about it. I'm not hating on your car or your setup, I'm hating on the fact that you go on, and on, and on, and on, and on about it. And again everyone knows how well chips worked for you.
We should get a mod in here to clean up a few of these threads


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Lastly. The Leafs suck:laugh:


I don't give a **** about the leafs or any other hockey team for that matter.


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## snobum (Dec 16, 2005)

im currently in talks with john reed racing. to do a motec build, with the e85 option sensor to switch between e85 and premium.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I am going to be making a new harness for my car today so I will take some pics of whats involved with that.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Took my car out for the first time this year. Did some part throttle tuning. Car runs better now. Turns out its not that hard when you start with a good tune
Thanks Kev


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

.therealvrt said:


> Took my car out for the first time this year. Did some part throttle tuning. Car runs better now. Turns out its not that hard when you start with a good tune
> Thanks Kev


Same here with my ms. It was on a friend's car with a similar setup so I was able to get going a whole lot easier. I bought tunerstudio's ve analyze live, and while not necessary its made my car run pretty nice.

Otherwise I'm really liking standalone in general and it was not hard to get going on it. Having strong hands on skills really helps though.

On a side note, I just got 60lb injectors off ebay for $15 from a cobalt ss/sc. I'm already hitting 80% idc with my dsm 450's.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Everyone that cares about your car already knows about it. I'm not hating on your car or your setup, I'm hating on the fact that you go on, and on, and on, and on, and on about it. And again everyone knows how well chips worked for you.
> We should get a mod in here to clean up a few of these threads


Reread the thread man. I respond to insults, shots at me, my car, times, etc. and will continue to. Give em what they want

Tell it to the sht starters. I just respond to it.

Like I said, OP should have named the thread standalone if the intention was to insult, prove wrong, discredit, etc. etc. anything to do with chip tunes. That's an argument waiting to happen.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Reread the thread man. I respond to insults, shots at me, my car, times, etc. and will continue to. Give em what they want
> 
> Tell it to the sht starters. I just respond to it.
> 
> Like I said, OP should have named the thread standalone if the intention was to insult, prove wrong, discredit, etc. etc. anything to do with chip tunes. That's an argument waiting to happen.


Cool story bro..


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

sp_golf said:


> I was mostly referring to slc and all his bum buddies with whom he keeps flirting while swinging on C2s balls.


Oops, Sorry for coming off wrong then...


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Cool story bro..


Thanks

Also true so it's a win win:beer:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Thanks
> 
> Also true so it's a win win:beer:


Yes.. a win win


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

chips suck.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

XXX008XXX said:


> chips suck.


...this whole thread sucks...isht is useless...


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Boost112 said:


> ...this whole thread sucks...isht is useless...


It did have some good info about tuning software and different hardware packages but certain people went nuts and insisted that everyone get chips and then refused to shut up about it and pretty much ruined a good thread.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> It did have some good info about tuning software and different hardware packages but certain people went nuts and *insisted that everyone get chips* and then refused to shut up about it and pretty much ruined a good thread.


Distortion of argument.

Chips work for some and not so much for others.

I feel as though you come across as thinking standalone is the best option for everyone much more so than I do so for chips


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Yes.. a win win


1) Tasteless photo:thumbdown:

2) What's your purpose in quoting my posts/responding? Send the photo to yourself:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> chips suck.


They'll let a VW run 11.4's at 2700 lbs. Something no allmotor VW will ever be able to do. 

Gutted cars suck


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Distortion of argument.
> 
> Chips work for some and not so much for others.
> 
> I feel as though you come across as thinking standalone is the best option for everyone much more so than I do so for chips





slcturbo said:


> 1) Tasteless photo:thumbdown:
> 
> 2) What's your purpose in quoting my posts/responding? Send the photo to yourself:beer:





slcturbo said:


> They'll let a VW run 11.4's at 2700 lbs. Something no allmotor VW will ever be able to do.
> 
> Gutted cars suck


Please stop. You have made your point, your car runs great. Still no dyno to prove a ****ty afr curve though, but regardless you got slips. Everyone please stop antogonizing him, Im sure we all think the same thing of him

Paul's car isnt stripped and hes in the 12's. Takes a lot more tinkering to get into the 12's with a VW than it does slapping on a turbo and turning the boost to nog. It is what it is.

Ive learned alot from this thread, and have greater perspective on what each system is capable of.


Also SLC, next to the 'Reply with Quote' button is one you can use to quote multiple posts by other members.:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Chips work for some and not so much for others.


And to take the chance on the chip and find out it doesnt work only gets you farther from a properly running car. You would have wasted the money that should have been spent on a proper standalone in the first place.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

TIGninja said:


> And to take the chance on the chip and find out it doesnt work only gets you farther from a properly running car. You would have wasted the money that should have been spent on a proper standalone in the first place.


i can vouch for that...in the end...a self-re-tunable/burnable chip worked for me. But that was after i already spent $1300 on other chip BS.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> They'll let a VW run 11.4's at 2700 lbs. Something no allmotor VW will ever be able to do.
> 
> Gutted cars suck


i have a turbo car so i dont know what your talking about... but compairing a turbo car to an all motor car is retarded.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> They'll let a VW run 11.4's at 2700 lbs. Something no allmotor VW will ever be able to do.
> 
> Gutted cars suck


your car is not impressive... sorry to burst your bubble. my all motor car was 2500lbs and went 12.0 @ 112mph on ZERO lbs of boost, with leather interios, power steering all that crap you say needs to be taken out... and i ran that number in 2005. 
anyways, an ECU is a ECU. they are all programable in the end. the bosch motronic everyone is chipping is tunable like a regular stand alone. your just putting in a chip of someone elses tune and hopefully it works well with your setup... IE: you have to run what they tell you otherwise your cars going to run like poop. in the end, you get what you pay for just like anything else.


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

XXX008XXX said:


> in the end, you get what you pay for just like anything else.


:thumbup::beer::wave:


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

here's one i read yesterday & taken from here:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2002/us100232.htm


Another feature of the Northstar engines is a "limp home" mode that allows the engine to continue running if all the coolant is lost. If the PCM senses an overheating condition, it temporarily disables up to half of the cylinders. This pumps enough air though the engine to keep temperatures from getting hot enough to cause any damage. Even so, GM says the vehicle should not be driven more than 50 miles in the limp-home mode.

i thought 50 miles with no coolant alum eng pulling a caddy :what:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Cadillac for the longest time, even maybe now, had its own r&d department separate from gm. Let's not get started on all the northstar headgasket/block failures though that's a whole different story. Awesome engine though, they make 300hp with 87 octane cat piss.

I pretty sure accel dfi gen 7 has a limp home mode feature as well.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And to take the chance on the chip and find out it doesnt work only gets you farther from a properly running car. You would have wasted the money that should have been spent on a proper standalone in the first place.


Hardly. $300 dizzy chip will sell for $150-$180 anyday. They also work well on most cars. ~$150 is a risk to run 11's? :facepalm: If you say so.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> in the end, you get what you pay for just like anything else.


This is usually true. Now here's one for you.

Smart people only pay for what they need/can use:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> your car is not impressive... sorry to burst your bubble. my all motor car was 2500lbs and went 12.0 @ 112mph on ZERO lbs of boost, with leather interios, power steering all that crap you say needs to be taken out.


^Big surprise. Join my 11.7-12.8 hate club. It's unreal. Always guys running those times. Come on guys get it together:laugh:

My car has impressed meMission accomplished.

If listing my times bruises your ego then you should see a psych. This forum can't help you.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Please stop. You have made your point, your car runs great. Still no dyno to prove a ****ty afr curve though, but regardless you got slips. Everyone please stop antogonizing him, Im sure we all think the same thing of him
> 
> Paul's car isnt stripped and hes in the 12's. Takes a lot more tinkering to get into the 12's with a VW than it does slapping on a turbo and turning the boost to nog. It is what it is.
> 
> ...


But you keep quoting my posts:facepalm:

Paul? He traps 105mph in a 2450lb car. I trapped 119mph in a 2700lb car with a simple 30# chip tune. Now I trap 129mph in a 2700# car on a 42# setup. There is no comparison. Please don't make one.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> But you keep quoting my posts:facepalm:
> 
> Paul? He traps 105mph in a 2450lb car. I trapped 119mph in a 2700lb car with a simple 30# chip tune. Now I trap 129mph in a 2700# car on a 42# setup. There is no comparison. Please don't make one.


you have the greatest car in the world


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

XXX008XXX said:


> you have the greatest hairdressers car in the world


edited for fact
:laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> you have the greatest car in the world


Again it's not my goal to make you or anyone else think I do or don't. I just offer my experience/results. Not looking for approval or an internet fan club:beer: Just the facts. I'll leave the BS/insults to the kiddies


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Again it's not my goal to make you or anyone else think I do or don't. I just offer my experience/results. Not looking for approval or an internet fan club:beer: Just the facts. I'll leave the BS/insults to the kiddies


Seriously, give it up already. :banghead:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Okay time for a group hug.. :laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Okay time for a group hug.. :laugh:


More like a group kick SLC in the nuts. :laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

thecorradokid24 said:


> Seriously, give it up already. :banghead:


Then stop quoting my posts:facepalm:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> More like a group kick SLC in the nuts. :laugh:


You're so mean


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

Slc, grow up already. Either contribute information or leave this thread. All you do is continually repeat yourself then quote other people who get pissed because you're a broken record. The last 2 pages of this thread are 80% your bs ramblings. Some of us are watching this thread because we want to learn, not hear you spouting off about your setup every 10 minutes. We get it dude, move on.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

wabbitGTl said:


> Slc, grow up already. Either contribute information or leave this thread. All you do is continually repeat yourself then quote other people who get pissed because you're a broken record. The last 2 pages of this thread are 80% your bs ramblings. Some of us are watching this thread because we want to learn, not hear you spouting off about your setup every 10 minutes. We get it dude, move on.


:laugh:I repeat myself, but the same guys keep quoting my posts and umm repeating themselves:facepalm:

Case in point. Hint hint. If you wouldn't have posted neither would I.:wave: 

On a serious note. This has been a lesson in ball busting. The busters have become the bustees. Think twice next time and let someone give their experience/opinion without attempting the old internet gang up/distortion of argument/schoolyard insult BS. The allmotor crew tried it and I think a couple of those guys are still in therapy

Again. It's a VS. thread. If you didn't want the other side then title the thread "Standalone Only".


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

462whp/452wtq at 17psi on C2 stage 4, 9:1 spacer, and 93 octane.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...or-me-today!&p=71128471&posted=1#post71128471


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

There is something wrong with you buddy.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> There is something wrong with you buddy.


He's just a jackass


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> There is something wrong with you buddy.


Why? It's a standalone vs. chip thread right? This guy made good power at only 17psi from a chip so i figured that's good to know for people considering both.

Why do facts make you angry?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> He's just a jackass


Name calling for posting facts:beer: It's just too easy


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Why? It's a standalone vs. chip thread right? This guy made good power at only 17psi from a chip so i figured that's good to know for people considering both.
> 
> Why do facts make you angry?


At this point it doesnt even matter. You just come across as a nutcase thats posting every dyno with a chip tune in this thread. Are you not taking your medication or what?


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## Mk41.8t (Nov 22, 2004)

Any good write ups about sem? Im interested in learning about it.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Mk41.8t said:


> Any good write ups about sem? Im interested in learning about it.


Isn't everything you wanted to know in this thread? :laugh:

To answer your question... not on the vortex. What do you want to know? Many of us have or tune SEM and can answer most of any question you would have.

The only real thing you need to know is... its awesome, and totally better than any chip tune could ever want to be :facepalm:

(ps I was kidding)


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

TIGninja said:


> There is something wrong with you buddy.


True



sp_golf said:


> He's just a jackass


True



slcturbo said:


> This guy made good power at only 17psi from a chip so i figured that's good to know for people considering both.


Also True


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## Mk41.8t (Nov 22, 2004)

GTijoejoe said:


> Isn't everything you wanted to know in this thread? :laugh:
> 
> To answer your question... not on the vortex. What do you want to know? Many of us have or tune SEM and can answer most of any question you would have.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to know what companys make it and what the tuning process looks like on a computer. And does it replace your ecu or does it run side by side with it?


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

Mk41.8t said:


> Just wanted to know what companys make it and what the tuning process looks like on a computer. And does it replace your ecu or does it run side by side with it?


http://www.lugtronic.com/

This is what I use, it is plug and play to your stock harness (you replace the ecu). Run a vacuum line to it and your pretty much good. It uses a MAP sensor rather then a MAF that the stock air intake uses. You will need to splice a couple of the MAF wires together. But its pretty simple. Then you can see everything the car is doing. This uses a VEMS tune. Check out the website, it has some good info.:thumbup:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> At this point it doesnt even matter. You just come across as a nutcase thats posting every dyno with a chip tune in this thread. Are you not taking your medication or what?


Not every one. Just the interesting ones. Stage 4 is still pretty new so dyno's/ET's on those setups are post worthy.

If I posted the same thing, but it was a SEMS dyno would you still call me names?

No meds here my man. The guys that get pissed at other people's ET's, opinions, setup, etc. need them alot more than I do.:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Not every one. Just the interesting ones. Stage 4 is still pretty new so dyno's/ET's on those setups are post worthy.
> 
> If I posted the same thing, but it was a SEMS dyno would you still call me names?
> 
> No meds here my man. The guys that get pissed at other people's ET's, opinions, setup, etc. need them alot more than I do.:beer:


Why do you think im intimidated by your slow ET? I will be so out of your reach after my first run of the year that it will be over for you :laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

If you would like we could get someone in here with a similar set up that runs standalone and compare apples to apples? He is almost a full second faster then you are.LOL


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

^
I actually agree with both of your above posts.

The difference is unlike you I don't care:laugh:

I built an 11.5 street car and I have one. Goals for the car are a nice sound system and reinstalling A/C. I'm not chasing timeslips anymore. I already have the one I wanted

FYI, I may be selling my Stage 4 Pro Maf chip if you're interested. It makes alot more power than you're making now...


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> ^
> I actually agree with both of your above posts.
> 
> The difference is unlike you I don't care:laugh:
> ...


Until next week. And you do realize I have a 4 cyl ABA right? Also post up your dynos.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

TIGninja said:


> Until next week. And you do realize I have a 4 cyl ABA right? Also post up your dynos.


yes...please...POST THEM.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

With an AFR curve and the torque curve plotted without the dyno smoothing set to 10


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## voora1 (Jun 5, 2009)

Ok this is a good argument, but what functions do you loose going standalone? In terms of ABS, onboard computer(MFA) ??

I have been looking at C2 for a long time but do realise the limitations of chip tune, especially living in an area with completely different climatic and road conditions. We do have some really good local standalone management systems though, but not sure what compromises would have to be made running standalone??


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

voora1 said:


> Ok this is a good argument, but what functions do you loose going standalone? In terms of ABS, onboard computer(MFA) ??
> 
> I have been looking at C2 for a long time but do realise the limitations of chip tune, especially living in an area with completely different climatic and road conditions. We do have some really good local standalone management systems though, but not sure what compromises would have to be made running standalone??


If you have a car with alot of things like MFA and ABS most will work without the ecu in place is they have access to the speed sensors and things like that. MFA is going to miss some function I believe because injector PW is going to be missing from the equation (I believe this to be true). Alot of times these problems are delt with by running the standalone as a piggyback to the stock computer where the standalone picks the signals from the input of the stock ecu and then runs to the outputs.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Is that normally the case with PnP units as well?

With a piggyback set-up like that, can the ecu tell it's not outputting anything of value? Can't they normally sense they have no control over the engine?


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Is that normally the case with PnP units as well?
> 
> With a piggyback set-up like that, can the ecu tell it's not outputting anything of value? Can't they normally sense they have no control over the engine?


The stock ecu will still output everything needed for most non essential functions. I know on the MK4s for instance you can choose either tach signal or DBW because the stock ecu will stop opening the throttle if it sees a rpm signal and has no outputs hooked up. As far as whats hooked up in the PNP harnesses I have no idea.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Is that normally the case with PnP units as well?
> 
> With a piggyback set-up like that, can the ecu tell it's not outputting anything of value? Can't they normally sense they have no control over the engine?


The ECU would know it has no control (especially since it knows it has no sensors etc) but it wouldn't know why, it'll throw codes basically.

I would think even with PnP your modulator functions should still work, more so on older vehicles.
The modulator has its own ECU and sensors, the prime reason for these sensors (yaw/G, wheel speeds) is for your modulator. Secondary it was determined that many other things can use the same information for other systems, so majority of the time the sensors feed the standard ECU, not the other way around.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Until next week. And you do realize I have a 4 cyl ABA right? Also post up your dynos.


319whp/tq at 12psi on 30# tune is the only one I have so I can post that when I get a sec.

42# coming soon. 

Yes, I know what motor you have. I was just sayin you could buy my chip and a used VR and make double the power you're making now on standalone.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> With an AFR curve and the torque curve plotted without the dyno smoothing set to 10


Why would I pay more for A/F? I have a wideband.

Car runs 11.4's at 129mph. Dyno is just to dial in shift points and make sure the car is making the power it should. Hey, but if somebody with nothing to do wants to analyze it all day on here then I'll post it for em. They can read it while I'm racing the car next Friday maybe...

C2 42# in 3rd gear and 4th gear vs. Porsche 911 RS in = a not so happy Porsche owner. Like I said, got all I need at the track and on the street.:beer:

I do wish anyone running for vortex dyno champion good luck thougheace:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

voora1 said:


> Ok this is a good argument, but what functions do you loose going standalone? In terms of ABS, onboard computer(MFA) ??
> 
> I have been looking at C2 for a long time but do realise the limitations of chip tune, especially living in an area with completely different climatic and road conditions. We do have some really good local standalone management systems though, but not sure what compromises would have to be made running standalone??


Limitations:laugh:

I just posted a dyno of a car making almost 500whp on 93 octane with a chip tune. What are you doing with the car? I mean you'll spin 4th with that kind of power on the street.

If decision was based purely on logic/power on a 12V.

Drag car = Standalone

Everything else = Chip

Climate? You do realize these are MAF based tunes just like 95% of cars on the road. Does your car need a retune now? Has it ever? Your car is running a MAF based "chip" tune.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Limitations:laugh:
> 
> I just posted a dyno of a car making almost 500whp on 93 octane with a chip tune.


where?


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...or-me-today!&p=71128471&posted=1#post71128471


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

GinsterMan98 said:


> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...or-me-today!&p=71128471&posted=1#post71128471


still dont see a chart.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Why would I pay more for A/F? I have a wideband.
> 
> I do wish anyone running for vortex dyno champion good luck thougheace:


Id like to see the piss poor afr curve like the rest of the c2 dynos that I see.

Are you daft? This is not a thread about maximum power, drag slips or anything else. 

ITS A ****ING THREAD ABOUT HOW GOOD A 'OFF THE SHELF' TUNE IS VS A STANDALONE SETUP IN REGARDS TO POWER PER PSI, AFR CURVES ETC.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> Limitations:laugh:
> 
> I just posted a dyno of a car making almost 500whp on 93 octane with a chip tune. What are you doing with the car? I mean you'll spin 4th with that kind of power on the street.
> 
> ...


you sure do talk a lot for someone who never shows up at any events... how do we know your times are even ran by your car?


----------



## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

slc will be at maplegrove on 6.12:wave:


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

XXX008XXX said:


> you sure do talk a lot for someone who never shows up at any events... how do we know your times are even ran by your car?


I can at least corroborate this; I've witnessed several of his mid 11's runs at Cecil County, and saw him participate in Pinks All Out at Maple Grove this past summer. :beer:

Here's a video someone shot of his 11.49 run at Cecil County, although it's fairly blurry...


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

jettatech said:


> slc will be at maplegrove on 6.12:wave:


I will


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

BLSport said:


> I can at least corroborate this; I've witnessed several of his mid 11's runs at Cecil County, and saw him participate in Pinks All Out at Maple Grove this past summer. :beer:
> 
> Here's a video someone shot of his 11.49 run at Cecil County, although it's fairly blurry...


Thanks bro. Don't feed into it though. Another one of my 11.7-12.8 hate club. Some people are really fragile


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Looks like someones a little bitter his team just lost in OT


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Id like to see the piss poor afr curve like the rest of the c2 dynos that I see.
> 
> Are you daft? This is not a thread about maximum power, drag slips or anything else.
> 
> ITS A ****ING THREAD ABOUT HOW GOOD A 'OFF THE SHELF' TUNE IS VS A STANDALONE SETUP IN REGARDS TO POWER PER PSI, AFR CURVES ETC.


Here's what you don't get. PSI, dyno, afr are all features of a setup. Not one of them is an actual real world performance benefit. ET, trap, autocross, road course lap time, stopping distance etc. are real world performance #'s. Your trying to poke holes in a car that traps 129mph, has been dead reliable, and runs to roll bar limit which was the owners goal. I mean it's pointless. Too many of this forum focus on power, egt, psi, a/f, turbulators, effieciency, blah, blah, blah. How about talking about what all that is for? What's it doing for you car?

You spend thousands on a dyno sheet or so your car can actually do something? Think about it

Dyno cars sound like internet fan club searching to me:sly:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> you sure do talk a lot for someone who never shows up at any events... how do we know your times are even ran by your car?


Here you go big guy. Scirocco1984 saw this one. 42# at ~20psi. Right lane.









92rado2.8 saw this one. 30# at 12psi. Right lane.









Still wanna nut ride? I can probably drum up pics of my car with those #'s on the windshield.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

12psi dyno. Stock compression, stock MAF, etc. so $300 in tuning. Ran 11.8's at 119mph. 20psi trapping 129mph, you do the math. Cars making 400whp all day.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Can we get one of the mods here to change the title of this thread to the "please pay attention to sclturbo" please? He basically hijack this thread and made it all about him so the thread title should reflect this. :facepalm:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Can we get one of the mods here to change the title of this thread to the "please pay attention to sclturbo" please? He basically hijack this thread and made it all about him so the thread title should reflect this. :facepalm:


Just answering questions sir. I was asked to post a dyno and prove said timeslips. I have done both.

For a thread where no one wants to hear about my car people sure bring it up an awfull lot.

Only 19 minutes after I posted:thumbup:That's not bad for you. I'm guessing you don't have much of a life outside of Vortex/standalone


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Just answering questions sir. I was asked to post a dyno and prove said timeslips. I have done both.
> 
> For a thread where no one wants to hear about my car people sure bring it up an awfull lot.
> 
> Only 19 minutes after I posted:thumbup:That's not bad for you. I'm guessing you don't have much of a life outside of Vortex/standalone


Says the guy with the higher post count in less time. 
As for hockey...... I cheer for the team with the Gold medal around their necks


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> Says the guy with the higher post count in less time.
> As for hockey...... I cheer for the team with the Gold medal around their necks


Yeah in what the last hr? Point is I'll go days w/out posting on here, but I guarantee you when I post tigninja will post within 20min. That's pathetic.

Gold medal? Canada? Part of my family is Canadian and I love the sport so no issues losing in the only sport their good at. In everything else it's a no contest for the US


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Just answering questions sir. I was asked to post a dyno and prove said timeslips. I have done both.
> 
> For a thread where no one wants to hear about my car people sure bring it up an awfull lot.
> 
> Only 19 minutes after I posted:thumbup:That's not bad for you. I'm guessing you don't have much of a life outside of Vortex/standalone


Nobody cares about your retarded car. They are just trying to get you to shut up so they can get back to a non one sided conversation again.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Nobody cares about your retarded car. They are just trying to get you to shut up so they can get back to a non one sided conversation again.


See I think you would prefer that it's one sided. I mean all you've done is relentlessly tried to argue anything that was posted pro chip. It's ridiculous man. For $300 and 5 min. people more than double the power of their cars. Accept it. Then get a girlfriend, a dog, another hobby, anything. Just get off Vortex for more than a half hr. It's pathetic:facepalm:


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

what the ****... this thread is getting worse and worse every day. 

here's a real question: 
i'm planning on tuning my car myself and was wondering if there were any major differences between tuning e85 and gasoline, aside from the richer afr?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Yes actually there are alot of things that are different. You have to run more timing to offset the slower burn from the E85 so you have max cyl pressure at the optimum time.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

wabbitGTl said:


> what the ****... this thread is getting worse and worse every day.
> 
> here's a real question:
> i'm planning on tuning my car myself and was wondering if there were any major differences between tuning e85 and gasoline, aside from the richer afr?


E85 has a much higher octane rating. The downside is that it requires approx 30% more fuel injected into your motor than pump gas so you need injectors/fuel pump that can support the extra demand while staying away from maxing them out. I too am loooking at doing an e85 tune on my lugtronics sem but only after i have my pump gas file done because i dont think my fuel pump setup will be able to handle 25+ psi on e85


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

i'm sure you could play with the timing a little more then, right? that's the route i was planning to go, get the pump gas dialed in then start playing with e85.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

wabbitGTl said:


> i'm sure you could play with the timing a little more then, right? that's the route i was planning to go, get the pump gas dialed in then start playing with e85.


yes you will have to add lots of timing. Unfortunatly the guy to ask more about this is no longer paying attention to this thread because of slcturbo. Everybody say thanks slcturbo for turning a useful thread into your own personal troll fest.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> Looks like someones a little bitter his team just lost in OT


5-4 Flyers in OT!

Come on let's talk hockey man. Or don't you want to now:laugh:


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

i have seen FMU cars make mid 400whp numbers... so what does that tell you, and thats even cheaper then your "$300" tuning... it must be better. hell people have even gone 10s on an FMU opcorn:


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

XXX008XXX said:


> i have seen FMU cars make mid 400whp numbers... so what does that tell you, and thats even cheaper then your "$300" tuning... it must be better. hell people have even gone 10s on an FMU opcorn:


WOOT WOOT FMU FTW eace:


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

XXX008XXX said:


> i have seen FMU cars make mid 400whp numbers... so what does that tell you, and thats even cheaper then your "$300" tuning... it must be better. hell people have even gone 10s on an FMU opcorn:


Never will i go back to those days. Paxton fmu,turbonetics t3/t4,deltagate wastegate. 
Days best forgotten imo


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> Never will i go back to those days. Paxton fmu,turbonetics t3/t4,deltagate wastegate.
> Days best forgotten imo


But people used to make the same argument for the FMUs as they now do for the chips. The off the shelf chips will soon be gone as well for the very same reason.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I still have a box holding the cartech fmu and obd1 vr6 eip stg 2 eprom that came off my car in 2007... it ran strong. Lean but strong. :laugh:


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

DieGTi said:


> I still have a box holding the cartech fmu and obd1 vr6 eip stg 2 eprom that came off my car in 2007... it ran strong. Lean but strong. :laugh:


lean is mean!!!


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

TIGninja said:


> But people used to make the same argument for the FMUs as they now do for the chips. The off the shelf chips will soon be gone as well for the very same reason.


I disagree. Chips have come a really long way. Getting vw to say a cobb tuning type setup would be nice but ill take an off the shelf c2 chip to an eip or atp chip anyday. Standalone is great but not for everyone.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

.therealvrt said:


> I disagree. Chips have come a really long way. Getting vw to say a cobb tuning type setup would be nice but ill take an off the shelf c2 chip to an eip or atp chip anyday. Standalone is great but not for everyone.


Chips have only came along way because someone actually has figured out how to tune them, its not like your OBD I/II chip technology has changed :laugh:

I agree with Chuck, one day when computer equipt keeps coming down in price and there are 100's of SEM they will come down to $400-500, which is pretty darn competitive to these chip tunes that need other supporting hardware etc... thats just my opinion

I just think of it when I was in college and I got an average mid-high grade laptop $1800-2000... Now as we all know you can get a pretty darn good lap top for $600-800.

Now I know logically you can counter this statement that chips should also come down in price, but I don't think so. The chip cost is not in the hardware its in the R&D of tuning... and for all the supporting hardware would still cost what it cost.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The future will end up the same way every other type car does. The local tuners will be doing custom tunes for all VWs. I have tuned a few cars like this but its not something that is profitable for me to do personally. I am working on a definition file to for VWs to be tuned using software that most tuners have used before. It will change the way things are done.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> i have seen FMU cars make mid 400whp numbers... so what does that tell you, and thats even cheaper then your "$300" tuning... it must be better. hell people have even gone 10s on an FMU opcorn:


Cool. I'll take the chip though. Gotta tune a fmu:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> But people used to make the same argument for the FMUs as they now do for the chips. The off the shelf chips will soon be gone as well for the very same reason.



Don't you believe it:laugh:

For the cars they work on why would anyone ever get rid of a chip:screwy:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> I disagree. Chips have come a really long way. Getting vw to say a cobb tuning type setup would be nice but ill take an off the shelf c2 chip to an eip or atp chip anyday. Standalone is great but not for everyone.


Well said. Just like chips aren't for everyone which I will admit.

Logic dictates that chips make sense for many. If someone is arguing everyone should go standalone it's because they have an agenda. Ego, financial gain, etc.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Chips have only came along way because someone actually has figured out how to tune them, its not like your OBD I/II chip technology has changed :laugh:
> 
> I agree with Chuck, one day when computer equipt keeps coming down in price and there are 100's of SEM they will come down to $400-500, which is pretty darn competitive to these chip tunes that need other supporting hardware etc... thats just my opinion
> 
> ...


Your forgetting one important point.

YOU HAVE TO TUNE A STANDALONE SETUP. Your time is a cost. Not everyone is 22 yrs old with no responsibilities and hours upon hours to spend doing whatever they want. For the rest of us, pop the chip in = DONE


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The future will end up the same way every other type car does. The local tuners will be doing custom tunes for all VWs. I have tuned a few cars like this but its not something that is profitable for me to do personally. I am working on a definition file to for VWs to be tuned using software that most tuners have used before. It will change the way things are done.


Every other?

Volvo's, Subaru's, Mustangs, Grand Nationals, etc. etc. none of those cars are supported by "chip" software? :bs:

Neighbor runs high 10's in his T-type with a chip and injectors. IPD makes Volvo software thats used by many of my customers. They drive OE. Should they be using standalone? The 40 yr old Volvo owner that wants another 50-80hp. He should go standalone?:laugh:

Your coming across as a zealot. Relax. Admit chips are a better choice for a certain segment. They are which is why companies make and sell them. ALOT of them


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## bluegrapevrt (Sep 19, 2010)

my buddies car just made 575whp on c2 stage iv. It was running a lil rich (high 10's) nut he had the incorrect fuel pressure/ Going back with the right one hoping to correct rich condition. For us guys in MD that are not quite historic a chip is much easier to do (emissions every two years) Once he gets the correct FPR in there it should have much better AFR's. This was around 22psi on a 4088r. He could of just cranked up the boost a lil more but was out of WG spring. Standalone is nice if you have the time , but for many the ease of chip tuning is to great to ignore. So now you can make a solid 600whp with a chip tune. So imo if you are shooting for 700+whp than of course go SEM. But, lets be realistic...if those are your goals you are are not going to be considering a "chip tune" in the first place

So for the vast majority of weekend VW drag racers their is a much easier route to go than SEM (easier as in time tuning, emmisions requirements ect). This thread has got out of control and way out of context. They both have there perks, but the fact is the majority of builds on here can run to 90% of there capabilities with a chip tune. And the other 10% will not get used unless its dedicated drag car that have a owner who can really spend the time to eek out every .10th. Bottom line for most on here with stock block VR's with ATP/Kinetic kits a c2/UM fueling kit will get you where you want to go. And yes I had c2 on my windsor and I think in two years of making 400whp it stalled maybe once due to being in the mountains. And yes i have a few friends running SEM on their projects and I don't care what anyone sais when there were tuning I was cruising with the windows down and the WG open!:beer:

Also, my car had just about perfect afr's all around and in the summer of 08-09 we had like ten Jeff Atwood cars boosting around all summer and none had the poor tuning many on here speak of. Actually one did but he called jeff and two weeks later had new chip that ran perfect for free of charge. So when I read all these negative c2/um threads i instantly think of hardware issues of old version of SW. But , entertaining thread to say the least lol.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Learning to tune for yourself shouldn't be considered a negative for owning standalone. There is an element of taking pride in your own work and tune and squeezing more power out than someone who just pops in a chip.


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## bluegrapevrt (Sep 19, 2010)

def not calling it a negative. Like mentioned above I would rather be driving/racing or doing something else personally. SEM def has it's place...:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

bluegrapevrt said:


> def not calling it a negative. Like mentioned above I would rather be driving/racing or doing something else personally. SEM def has it's place...:beer:


Then leave it to a professional like your local tuner. The idea that you have to tune it yourself is just false and has been perpetuated by the pro chip crowd forever. The idea that you have to either put in a chip and live with it or switch to standalone is also false and foolish. Every tuner in the country has to ability to tune every other make and model of car except VWs? Of the tunable ECUs that come in cars the OBD1 motronic is just as easy as any other one but ignorance from this forum has perpetuated the belief that it is something beyond the tuners around the country.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Every other?
> 
> Volvo's, Subaru's, Mustangs, Grand Nationals, etc. etc. none of those cars are supported by "chip" software? :bs:
> 
> ...


Volvos are not fast.LOL They rely on the same tuning methods as VW guys at this point. Subarus,mustangs,and grand nationals are,and they are tuned by local tuners for the best results. Lets not forget hondas,evos,GM cars. The subarus and the evos are a very good example of what I speak of. They make canned reflashes for those as well but nobody uses them anymore because the best ones are the ones that are tuned for the car with the modifications. 

ECU custom tuned for your car and the C2 chips are not at all the same thing. If you would pull your head out and look around then you would be able to see what im actually supporting. I have been a proponent of retuning the stock ECU as well before you probably even had a car. You are so narrow minded and short sited its just amazing.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> Learning to tune for yourself shouldn't be considered a negative for owning standalone. There is an element of taking pride in your own work and tune and squeezing more power out than someone who just pops in a chip.


It's all perspective.

It's a plus for people that have the time and wanna tune.

It's a negative for people that don't have the time or would rather spend it doing something else they enjoy.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Volvos are not fast.LOL They rely on the same tuning methods as VW guys at this point. Subarus,mustangs,and grand nationals are,and they are tuned by local tuners for the best results. Lets not forget hondas,evos,GM cars. The subarus and the evos are a very good example of what I speak of. They make canned reflashes for those as well but nobody uses them anymore because the best ones are the ones that are tuned for the car with the modifications.
> 
> ECU custom tuned for your car and the C2 chips are not at all the same thing. If you would pull your head out and look around then you would be able to see what im actually supporting. I have been a proponent of retuning the stock ECU as well before you probably even had a car. You are so narrow minded and short sited its just amazing.


You have an agenda sir.

There are chipped cars of numerous makes and models that let owners achieve their goals at low cost and low time investment. What you think is fast is irrelevant as it pertains to someone else's car.

If you don't mind me asking. How old are you?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

bluegrapevrt said:


> my buddies car just made 575whp on c2 stage iv. It was running a lil rich (high 10's) nut he had the incorrect fuel pressure/ Going back with the right one hoping to correct rich condition. For us guys in MD that are not quite historic a chip is much easier to do (emissions every two years) Once he gets the correct FPR in there it should have much better AFR's. This was around 22psi on a 4088r. He could of just cranked up the boost a lil more but was out of WG spring. Standalone is nice if you have the time , but for many the ease of chip tuning is to great to ignore. So now you can make a solid 600whp with a chip tune. So imo if you are shooting for 700+whp than of course go SEM. But, lets be realistic...if those are your goals you are are not going to be considering a "chip tune" in the first place
> 
> So for the vast majority of weekend VW drag racers their is a much easier route to go than SEM (easier as in time tuning, emmisions requirements ect). This thread has got out of control and way out of context. They both have there perks, but the fact is the majority of builds on here can run to 90% of there capabilities with a chip tune. And the other 10% will not get used unless its dedicated drag car that have a owner who can really spend the time to eek out every .10th. Bottom line for most on here with stock block VR's with ATP/Kinetic kits a c2/UM fueling kit will get you where you want to go. And yes I had c2 on my windsor and I think in two years of making 400whp it stalled maybe once due to being in the mountains. And yes i have a few friends running SEM on their projects and I don't care what anyone sais when there were tuning I was cruising with the windows down and the WG open!:beer:
> 
> Also, my car had just about perfect afr's all around and in the summer of 08-09 we had like ten Jeff Atwood cars boosting around all summer and none had the poor tuning many on here speak of. Actually one did but he called jeff and two weeks later had new chip that ran perfect for free of charge. So when I read all these negative c2/um threads i instantly think of hardware issues of old version of SW. But , entertaining thread to say the least lol.


Well said. Another satisfied customer that realizes that SEM is only really needed on a full blown track dedicated drag car:beer:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> Well said. Another satisfied customer that realizes that SEM is only really needed on a full blown track dedicated drag car:beer:


Oh really? And what about hybrid/fraken motors? Or cross manufacterer swaps? Or conversions from carbs/mechanical injection to EFI? Or old EFI cars that you can't get a chip for or that have ruined wiring harnesses?

The last example I just did a couple of months ago. 79 Datsun 280ZX that had been bouncing from shop to shop around town for 2 years. NOBODY could keep it running well for more than 2 days. Now this was a really clean 1 owner car and when we looked at it we found that the wiring harness was corroded at EVERY SINGLE CONNECTOR for at least 8 inches into the harness. I spent half a day installing and wiring a megasquirt 2 and another couple of hours tuning it. End result.... even with a tired motor the car ran better than it did BRAND NEW. Oh yeah I added an O2 sensor as well ( no closed loop in 79), the car gets 28 mpg highway and 24 city, MUCH better than new.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> You have an agenda sir.
> 
> There are chipped cars of numerous makes and models that let owners achieve their goals at low cost and low time investment. What you think is fast is irrelevant as it pertains to someone else's car.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking. How old are you?


Dud you are the nut job with the bizzare agenda. I have a thread in this forum that I have given people enough information to chip tune their own ECUs(I have alot of time into this). Go ahead and tell me again how I am some kind of anti chip tuning agent of the devil. 

My age make no difference.


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> Cool. I'll take the chip though. Gotta tune a fmu:beer:


yea but you can get a used FMU for $50... sometimes even free. change the disc and your done... not much tuning. waaayyy cheaper then your $400 used chip, and runs the same.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Well said. Another satisfied customer that realizes that SEM is only really needed on a full blown track dedicated drag car:beer:


Are you high?


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Your forgetting one important point.
> 
> YOU HAVE TO TUNE A STANDALONE SETUP. Your time is a cost. Not everyone is 22 yrs old with no responsibilities and hours upon hours to spend doing whatever they want. For the rest of us, pop the chip in = DONE


I didnt forget anything, STOP being such a deutch bag (I understand its hard for you), you need to really try, that would impress all of us. :thumbup:

You know there are setups that actualy tune them selves, adaptive closed loop logic... its even in OEM ecu's too... in addition to files you can start from from other tuners and setups. My point is SEM will come down in cost so you can stop your bitching about prices.... would if of made you happy if I said it cost $200 and than your $300 tune would put you at $500... its just an example

.. and why do you think 22yr olds don't have responsibilities? Are you making assumptions of my age? your blanket statements arn't valid, people of all ages have children, marriges, jobs (even professional jobs), school, bills to pay... those are all responsibilities... you act like your life is as busy as the president's schedule.... and even if it is, I understand.. but take one day less racing and tune your car eace:

ps. don't be a F****** duetch bag when you respond

and for OBD II emissions, I'm sure that issue will be worked out with SEM at some point.. especially if we look into reflash capability like every other tuner Chuck has mentioned.


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

bluegrapevrt said:


> my buddies car just made 575whp on c2 stage iv. It was running a lil rich (high 10's) nut he had the incorrect fuel pressure/ Going back with the right one hoping to correct rich condition. For us guys in MD that are not quite historic a chip is much easier to do (emissions every two years) Once he gets the correct FPR in there it should have much better AFR's. This was around 22psi on a 4088r. He could of just cranked up the boost a lil more but was out of WG spring. Standalone is nice if you have the time , but for many the ease of chip tuning is to great to ignore. So now you can make a solid 600whp with a chip tune. So imo if you are shooting for 700+whp than of course go SEM. But, lets be realistic...if those are your goals you are are not going to be considering a "chip tune" in the first place
> 
> So for the vast majority of weekend VW drag racers their is a much easier route to go than SEM (easier as in time tuning, emmisions requirements ect). This thread has got out of control and way out of context. They both have there perks, but the fact is the majority of builds on here can run to 90% of there capabilities with a chip tune. And the other 10% will not get used unless its dedicated drag car that have a owner who can really spend the time to eek out every .10th. Bottom line for most on here with stock block VR's with ATP/Kinetic kits a c2/UM fueling kit will get you where you want to go. And yes I had c2 on my windsor and I think in two years of making 400whp it stalled maybe once due to being in the mountains. And yes i have a few friends running SEM on their projects and I don't care what anyone sais when there were tuning I was cruising with the windows down and the WG open!:beer:
> 
> Also, my car had just about perfect afr's all around and in the summer of 08-09 we had like ten Jeff Atwood cars boosting around all summer and none had the poor tuning many on here speak of. Actually one did but he called jeff and two weeks later had new chip that ran perfect for free of charge. So when I read all these negative c2/um threads i instantly think of hardware issues of old version of SW. But , entertaining thread to say the least lol.


For the car in question (I believe you are talking about Justins Corrado) I just passed emissions with my SEM on my VRT with no issues or Cat for that matter. The sniffer test for pre-OBDII cars is a joke. :thumbup:


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

I'm from MD, and all my friends have crazy cars... they all pass emissions too

Anyways... I was curious so I checked out some flash/chip options...

C2 fuel kit for 12v stg2 (400hp) is $875, stg3 $1349... how is that comparitive to SEM?
24v stg I (600hp) $1399 

Checked APR's site because the future is not eprom, so there goes that idea.... $550-600+ depending if you rock vw or audi's

So it looks like at some point something is going to change....good luck, I'll stick with my Evo and speed density conversion, $3-400 flash tune and abilities proven to support 700awhp eace:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

GTijoejoe said:


> I'm from MD, and all my friends have crazy cars... they all pass emissions too
> 
> Anyways... I was curious so I checked out some flash/chip options...
> 
> ...


I do all inclusive basic MS2 installs for not much more than that ($1399) at the shop and they include dyno tuning! And if it's my own stuff for that price I can go MS3/3X with harnesses, and a wide band and still have money left over.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

You still have to buy injectors and an air filter with a standalone.... cost of just the software is 3-500.

just putting that out there.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> You still have to buy injectors and an air filter with a standalone.... cost of just the software is 3-500.
> 
> just putting that out there.


Not true over 80% of the MS installs I have done used stock injectors and 50% used the stock aircleaner


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

For boosted set-ups? OR for a mild efi upgrade? 

If you're building 700whp vrs with stock injectors on SEM then I want you to do my car LOL


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

A lot of my installs are on SCCA Improved Touring cars. Obviously on a big turbo car injectors and other things will be needed but same same if you do a chip for the same car.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

That's the point I was making  

If your power levels require bigger injectors, fuel pump, or any other "peripheral" components then you can't lump the cost of those components in with the cost of the software.

The pro-maf on the other-hand IS tuning specific and could be lumped in with the cost of the software.

for the sake of the argument, c2 prices right off the website:
12v vr6 odb2 software (alone) stage 2 400hp: $350
Fueling kit stg2: $875

6x36 lb injectors (not sure if they're the right ones or not): $360

Comparative pricing of fueling kit stg2 vs standalone w/o injectors: $515


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> For boosted set-ups? OR for a mild efi upgrade?
> 
> If you're building 700whp vrs with stock injectors on SEM then I want you to do my car LOL


Staged injection on channel 2 with 5-6 bar of fuel. When are you dropping your car off?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Ah but then I'd have to pay for a second set of injectors and have the IM modified as well as adding a second fuel rail, lines, etc.

Again, my post wasn't to make an argument in either favor of SEM or chip but merely a criticism of of how costs are being compared.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Ah but then I'd have to pay for a second set of injectors and have the IM modified as well as adding a second fuel rail, lines, etc.
> 
> Again, my post wasn't to make an argument in either favor of SEM or chip but merely a criticism of of how costs are being compared.


You did say *"building"*...


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> You still have to buy injectors and an air filter with a standalone.... cost of just the software is 3-500.
> 
> just putting that out there.


Its a valid point, I thought SEM didn't use air filters :laugh:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

GTijoejoe said:


> Its a valid point, I thought SEM didn't use air filters :laugh:


Just water filters.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

GTijoejoe said:


> Its a valid point, I thought SEM didn't use air filters :laugh:


Common misconception, Sem still requires filters LOL




DieGTi said:


> You did say *"building"*...



Got me there. LOL the point still stands


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'll make one more comment and then I'm done.

Both Chips/Reflashes and Standalone systems have pros and cons but NO MATTER WHAT it costs money to go fast. 

On a newer car that was a daily with just basic upgrades (ie exhaust, CAI, underdrive pulleys) a chip or reflash makes cost effective sense.

On ANYTHING where you are looking for big power or for that matter decent power plus gas mileage or if you're doing a motor swap or frankenmotor or EFI conversion then it makes sense TO ME to go standalone. But then I'm a tightwad, if I gotta spend the bucks then do it once and if I need or want to change things later well with a standalone it's an hour or 2 of retuning at most rather than a new chip or flash.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Yep... tuning is quick with a base map. I had 30 minutes of laptop battery to tune my 24v swap on megasquirt while driving. Laptop battery died while doing that first tune and I drove from phoenix to big bear california round trip without going back to the house for my charger. Averaged over 25mpg on that 30 minute tune and made decent power... misconceptions are abound when it comes to SEM.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You must have gotten lucky :wave:


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

...or used a 12v stock injector map you posted!


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Hey slc, how long does it take you to get to the track from your house?

On my MS, I used a basemap from spitfireefi.com, had it idling decent in about 25 min of tuning, and with TunerStudio and the add-on call VE analyze live my car tunes itself driving down the road. In about 35 min. of driving the car has matched the afr targets that I set in the ECU.

Timing map is a bit conservative, as I dont have a dyno at my disposal to fine tune it, but it sure moves pretty good.

Brand new MS1 v3 board in kit form is $200 bucks, $350ish all assembled. A few extra components for coil pack and Idle control, your still under $400. Make an adapter using a stock harness and an old plug from a dead motronic ecu and your golden.


----------



## bluegrapevrt (Sep 19, 2010)

> Then leave it to a professional like your local tuner. The idea that you have to tune it yourself is just false and has been perpetuated by the pro chip crowd forever. The idea that you have to either put in a chip and live with it or switch to standalone is also false and foolish. Every tuner in the country has to ability to tune every other make and model of car except VWs? Of the tunable ECUs that come in cars the OBD1 motronic is just as easy as any other one but ignorance from this forum has perpetuated the belief that it is something beyond the tuners around the country.


I hear ya man had cbrd tune my MR. Lets be honest if money/time were no issue 99% of people would go standalone. If i had a super bad ass vrt (wish i did,used to have one) it would have standalone for sure. But, still working on the rich part, and getting there takes time:beer:. So the ease of the chip tune was too gravy to pass up (yes its cheaper). People are taking the crap too serious...what I mention above is just ONE reason to pick a chip tune. If you have two or more to go SEM...go SEM. These grudges need to be settled a WF drag strip.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

DieGTi said:


> ...or used a 12v stock injector map you posted!


I've made it too easy!


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I've made it too easy!


We all have by posting our tune files up for the public to use...


----------



## voora1 (Jun 5, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> Limitations:laugh:
> 
> I just posted a dyno of a car making almost 500whp on 93 octane with a chip tune. What are you doing with the car? I mean you'll spin 4th with that kind of power on the street.
> 
> ...


Yes no doubt that is alot of power! My car is by no means a race car and I am not looking for that sort of power, I am simply exploring tunining options. 

Like i say we have some really good local standalone systems, easily run full sequential fuel and ignition, so this is ceratainly a feasible option. I do realise they are MAF based tunes, but surely it will only be able to correct fueling and ignition within certain parameters. These tunes are done outside my country.Thats worries me.

For example, my car has no standard cat, no emission control devices as it was not required back then. I would rather have a car makin 300WHP reliably with clean fueling than 500 over a thousand rpm with crap fueling everywhere else. Not saying yours is like that, but thats what im looking for.

How well does you chip tune work outside peak power?

Thanks:beer:


----------



## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

voora1 said:


> How well does you chip tune work outside peak power?
> 
> Thanks:beer:


Mine worked like crap. But I think I discovered the issue was with the newer c2 products. If you want a chip tune go to Jeff @ United Motorsports.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

voora1 said:


> How well does you chip tune work outside peak power?
> 
> Thanks:beer:


The car drives OE. Cold start, cold idle, part throttle, accel, cruise, WOT. Just like factory, but almost 3x the power.

Every "chip" tune is different. 42# obd2 12V vr is most proven of all the chip tunes as per the tuner himself. I believe it was in his personal car and revised at least once. 

Get all the info and then choose what works for you:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> yea but you can get a used FMU for $50... sometimes even free. change the disc and your done... not much tuning. waaayyy cheaper then your $400 used chip, and runs the same.


30# was $300, sold for $150= so $150

Chip was $350 brand new

Stage 4 was $150 brand new

No tuning. Runs OE from 7-20psi. You aren't doing that with an fmu son


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Dud you are the nut job with the bizzare agenda. I have a thread in this forum that I have given people enough information to chip tune their own ECUs(I have alot of time into this). Go ahead and tell me again how I am some kind of anti chip tuning agent of the devil.
> 
> My age make no difference.


Aww. Don't play good guy now man. You followed every post I made for 10 pages. Don't want a fight? Don't start one:beer:

Makes all the difference. Have some kids, buy a home, invest some $$, get 3-4 more hobbies, go back to school, get a dog, etc. etc. You'll appreciate the simplicity of a chip:beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> Have some kids, buy a home, invest some $$, get 3-4 more hobbies, go back to school, get a dog, etc. etc. You'll appreciate the simplicity of a chip


:banghead:


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Aww. Don't play good guy now man. You followed every post I made for 10 pages. Don't want a fight? Don't start one:beer:
> 
> Makes all the difference. Have some kids, buy a home, invest some $$, get 3-4 more hobbies, go back to school, get a dog, etc. etc. You'll appreciate the simplicity of a chip:beer:


Actually my children know more about cars then you do :laugh:


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## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> 30# was $300, sold for $150= so $150
> 
> Chip was $350 brand new
> 
> ...


free hand me down FMU... this was done in 2002, are there any chip cars even close to the 10s yet? didnt think so, and even if it wasnt a and me down, they are $50 in the forced induction classifieds...
edit: no injectors needed either, how much did that cost you and your MAF housing? you didnt buy just a chip my friends so stop the false advertisement and making things cheaper then they seem.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Actually my children know more about cars then you do :laugh:


Highly doubt it. I don't tune cars, but I diagnose problems all day every day and I'm very good at it.


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

XXX008XXX said:


> free hand me down FMU... this was done in 2002, are there any chip cars even close to the 10s yet? didnt think so, and even if it wasnt a and me down, they are $50 in the forced induction classifieds...
> edit: no injectors needed either, how much did that cost you and your MAF housing? you didnt buy just a chip my friends so stop the false advertisement and making things cheaper then they seem.


Sure are. 42#'s have run 11.1's. You don't think the 60# stuff can run 10's?

What's the total time spend tuning it w/ the fmu to run that time? It's not 5 min. No to run that time and get the car to run OE in all conditions. Not even close.

Cheaper than they seem? I listed what the chips cost. That's what they cost.

At the end of the day I love my setup and what it runs. If you don't like it then run a different setup. What is your point?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> :banghead:


From a guy that STILL has not bested his chip tuned 12V time since going SEMS. How long has it been now?

:banghead: ,but you support my argument


----------



## bluegrapevrt (Sep 19, 2010)

Not trying to fuel the argument but, a c2 r32 ran a 10.* here in MD (I'll dig it up), granted it was light and @ cecil but just fyi. Back in the day a local shady tuner (Dave schister) used to be able to get 350wheel with the old crazy fp... stock injector set-up. Those were the crazy old days for sure. But you got what you paid for with the crazy pressure at the rail..not safe at all. I heard of a couple vr's going out bc of fmu set-up...usually on fire lol.

In your guys opinion, who makes the best (option wise and cost) standalone system nowadays>? Which one is the most proven with VR's?:beer:

c2/SEM =grudge matches....lets get this going it would be awesome.


----------



## XXX008XXX (Mar 26, 2002)

bluegrapevrt said:


> Not trying to fuel the argument but, a c2 r32 ran a 10.* here in MD (I'll dig it up), granted it was light and @ cecil but just fyi. Back in the day a local shady tuner (Dave schister) used to be able to get 350wheel with the old crazy fp... stock injector set-up. Those were the crazy old days for sure. But you got what you paid for with the crazy pressure at the rail..not safe at all. I heard of a couple vr's going out bc of fmu set-up...usually on fire lol.
> 
> In your guys opinion, who makes the best (option wise and cost) standalone system nowadays>? Which one is the most proven with VR's?:beer:
> 
> c2/SEM =grudge matches....lets get this going it would be awesome.


ok, but a 3.2 24 valve all wheel drive car is not a 12 valve 2.8 FWD car....

you want to know what disc to put in the fmu? 12:1. now go put that in and actually go fast in that corrado.... there is your tuning.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

bluegrapevrt said:


> Not trying to fuel the argument but, a c2 r32 ran a 10.* here in MD (I'll dig it up), granted it was light and @ cecil but just fyi. Back in the day a local shady tuner (Dave schister) used to be able to get 350wheel with the old crazy fp... stock injector set-up. Those were the crazy old days for sure. But you got what you paid for with the crazy pressure at the rail..not safe at all. I heard of a couple vr's going out bc of fmu set-up...usually on fire lol.
> 
> In your guys opinion, who makes the best (option wise and cost) standalone system nowadays>? Which one is the most proven with VR's?:beer:
> 
> c2/SEM =grudge matches....lets get this going it would be awesome.


I like the new haltech stuff personally.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

billyVR6 said:


> It looks like the ignore user function is working well... :bs:


.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> From a guy that STILL has not bested his chip tuned 12V time since going SEMS. How long has it been now?
> 
> :banghead: ,but you support my argument


The thing you're missing, *constantly*, is context. When I first put my SEM in I did a back to back dyno, at NGP vs the GIAC chip, and made power *everywhere* (dyno linke posted earlier in the thread) and driveability was much improved, not to mention gas mileage. Unfortunately before it hit the track like that I hurt the motor in a boating accident, and was replaced with an even worse one and at that point I pulled the trigger on the 3.2.

The story there is that I *wanted* to use it to R&D on using Megasquirt standalone systems to control things like VVT, the intake flapper, etc. I had the swap from 12v to the R32 engine done in three days, working evenings only and then drove for the next two months straight. Parked it for a bit after I moved and then that same exact setup, with only street tuning and THREE passes got within .1 of my best 12v time ever, which with the last setup was over 50 passes... in 100+deg track temps, 70+lbs heavier then I ever ran it with the 12v. It was on track to go 12.7x based on 1/8th mile et, but I smashed a plug and packed it up for the day, and year, due to 'other commitments.'

In short advantages of standalone in my personal case:

Able to make more power then chip tune across rev range, plus other 'racing features'
Able to complete otherwise complex engine swap in record time changing NO ecu hardware *at all*

You had an 11.50 car when you had a 30# setup so your current et isn't really impressive at all either. Start talking **** when you run faster then me at the same lb/hp... or even when you hit close to the potential of your setup... or when you go run faster then a mid 14 on the motor... 

I wish the ignore user feature really worked, it'd save me a lot of time.:banghead:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

It's impressive enough for me and to run to roll bar limit at 2700#lbs and likely 2800# w/ the seats and AC back in:beer: 

All the poking holes in my times/setup is futile. Car runs what I want it to. Not a drag car, could give a sht about events, will never see a roll bar, stock trans. I got what I needed from a chip tune and so can the vast majority if they aren't serious drag cars .

Ignore? Yeah think back to all the times you and your fan club posted BS in my threads. What goes around comes around:thumbup:

Lastly, take a step back and realize I've never said standalone doesn't make sense for some. It just doesn't for the majority. You need the components to support it, the time to tune it, and the goals that require it. Very few fit all 3 criteria. Allmotor is a little different. You can't make 600whp with a chip. FI cars can.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> It's impressive enough for me and to run to roll bar limit at 2700#lbs and likely 2800# w/ the seats and AC back in:beer:
> 
> All the poking holes in my times/setup is futile. Car runs what I want it to. Not a drag car, could give a sht about events, will never see a roll bar, stock trans. I got what I needed from a chip tune and so can the vast majority if they aren't serious drag cars .
> 
> ...


You make about >< much sense. Anyone can run a car slower then the ET it can and then say they "want it to." Good one.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You make about >< much sense. Anyone can run a car slower then the ET it can and then say they "want it to." Good one.


Not followin ya. If you don't understand ANY statement I made reference it specifically and I'll explain it to you.

Not interested in 60' the car to death for .1-.2 or making more power and bye bye 3rd gear. Both can be done ~fairly easily/cheaply. I choose not to do them. Is that really hard to understand?

I may not even run slicks anymore. Just street tires/non DR's. Does that sound like someone who's trying to beat they're ET?

You can drag race without being obsessed with going faster. Just enjoy the ride:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Not followin ya. If you don't understand ANY statement I made reference it specifically and I'll explain it to you.
> 
> Not interested in 60' the car to death for .1-.2 or making more power and bye bye 3rd gear. Both can be done ~fairly easily/cheaply. I choose not to do them. Is that really hard to understand?
> 
> ...


Cause you know as soon as I get my driveline sorted out you will be forced to shut your face :laugh:


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

TIGninja said:


> Cause you know as soon as I get my driveline sorted out you will be forced to shut your face :laugh:


oh nooo not by an 8v.......


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Cause you know as soon as I get my driveline sorted out you will be forced to shut your face :laugh:


Yeah man. I could never build a chipped drag car to beat an 8V on standalone:facepalm:

You'll never force me to do anything.:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

the_q_jet said:


> oh nooo not by an 8v.......


The 8v  Im putting in a diff this weekend and my axles should be here soon. This will give me the ability to use the power I have already had. It will also let me use my new fuel pump and bigger injectors to make even more power. I should be right around 500whp and 450tq. In my car this should go about 10.0-10.5 @ about 135-140. 

And now you know why mr king of the quarter mile doesnt want to keep pushing it :laugh:


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Yeah man. I could never build a chipped drag car to beat an 8V on standalone:facepalm:
> 
> You'll never force me to do anything.:thumbup:


The only thing we are trying to force you to do is stop spreading around half truths in this forum. Everything you say is half true because its biased and about half factually correct.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

TIGninja said:


> The 8v  Im putting in a diff this weekend and my axles should be here soon. This will give me the ability to use the power I have already had. It will also let me use my new fuel pump and bigger injectors to make even more power. I should be right around 500whp and 450tq. In my car this should go about 10.0-10.5 @ about 135-140.
> 
> And now you know why mr king of the quarter mile doesnt want to keep pushing it :laugh:


what turbo you runnin now?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

the_q_jet said:


> what turbo you runnin now?


Same 5557. Its going to take about 30#s to get me where I need to go. After I did the head porting I did 368 on 21psi but was out of fuel.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Just put a chute and some wheelie bars on it. A beater mk1 gti with a turbo 8v breaking into the 9's would be rather amusing.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> It just doesn't for the majority. You need the components to support it, the time to tune it, and the goals that require it. Very few fit all 3 criteria.


This is the main point of contention. Believing you speak for the majority... based upon what? 

I've run both SEM and C2 on street cars of my own.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Just put a chute and some wheelie bars on it. A beater mk1 gti with a turbo 8v breaking into the 9's would be rather amusing.


A beater? FU! LOL It does have a shot at 9s with the power it will soon have but its going to take alot of adjustments that will make it not so much of a street car and I want to keep it as one.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

I'm looking to start playing with SEM soon, I've tuned MS before and was able to walk myself through it. Took a few days, only working several hours a day to get the harness and ECU set up so it would run and drive. I'm excited to have another project, and yes it will be street driven.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

TIGninja said:


> A beater? FU! LOL It does have a shot at 9s with the power it will soon have but its going to take alot of adjustments that will make it not so much of a street car and I want to keep it as one.


Lets be honest Chuck, it's a 'full blown drag car' because it runs standalone.


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

TIGninja said:


> Same 5557. Its going to take about 30#s to get me where I need to go. After I did the head porting I did 368 on 21psi but was out of fuel.


 i dunno about 500whp with that one...i was thinkin more 450whp at 32psi ish...but please prove me wrong


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

the_q_jet said:


> i dunno about 500whp with that one...i was thinkin more 450whp at 32psi ish...but please prove me wrong


It will do it.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Interesting new news for you clowns. There is some interest by someone who developed alot of the honda freeware to set up a GUI for the VW guys. Whos ready for Crome for VWs?


----------



## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

I certainly am.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> Interesting new news for you clowns. There is some interest by someone who developed alot of the honda freeware to set up a GUI for the VW guys. Whos ready for Crome for VWs?


My beater is ready for it. Would be perfect if I could run a map sensor instead of the MAF. Let me know if there's anyway I can help.. I can donate parts and such and help with testing.
Do you know if it's gonna work with OBD2 or OBD1 only?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Most likely OBD1 only, OBD2 uses a 16bit processor and emulators for that are real money.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Most likely OBD1 only, OBD2 uses a 16bit processor and emulators for that are real money.


So now all the guys who had to buy OBD2 harnesses and crap will be ditching them to put OBD1 back in :laugh:

Because the OBD2 stuff requires an adapter board it will probably be used with a reflash chip. Any tracing could be done through the OBD port.

It could be done with some nerd work but I am not interested in spending the time to do it. There are alot of things that I would have to learn as well that these guys already know.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

OBD1Kenobi

had to do it


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> The only thing we are trying to force you to do is stop spreading around half truths in this forum. Everything you say is half true because its biased and about half factually correct.


List something specific I said other than an obvious opinion that is a half truth.

Your the 3rd or 4th person I've called out on this with no response. Be specific. The broad generalizations you are making are usually made because someone has lost an argument which you certainly have. Chips have, do, and will work for most despite your bias.

Your the most biased person on this forum. I'm not the one saying one way is best for everyone. You are.

Truth>BS

Now reply within 20min. and I'll get back to you in a few days because I'm busy living my life.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Lets be honest Chuck, it's a 'full blown drag car' because it runs standalone.


You're slow:wave:


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> Now reply within 20min. and I'll get back to you in a few days because I'm busy living my life 1/4 mile at a time.



fixed:laugh:


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

He's like herpes, just when you think he's gone you get another annoying outbreak. :banghead: could you guys give a little more info on "crome" for VW? A friend ran it on his Honda a few years ago but I never really dug too deep.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

wabbitGTl said:


> He's like herpes, just when you think he's gone you get another annoying outbreak. :banghead: could you guys give a little more info on "crome" for VW? A friend ran it on his Honda a few years ago but I never really dug too deep.


All it really is is a user interface that is configured to let any local tuner anywhere do a custom tune for your VW.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

like Maestro for OBD1?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

yup.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

In .
Although, if it's got anything to do with John Cui...I'll pass. His Crome support is asstacular.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Again just for clarification here. The tool is only as good as the one who is using it. This is why you should leave it to your local tuner. Sure some people can tune their own cars but in the end your better off letting a pro do this part.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok here is a little something to look at in the mean time. Here is a free program I have used to tune OBD1 cars in the past. There have been some new developments recently that make this even better but we will get into that later. The program is called tunerpro. Go and download the free version (for now).
http://www.tunerpro.net/downloadApp.htm

Now you will need the BIN file and the Definition file to run it. Load each where they are asked for.


http://www.tunerpro.net/downloadBinDefs.htm

You should be able to take this to your local tuner and he can tune most things on your car. I havent really looked these files over to check them and would mainly recomend them for looking at.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Here is an example of someone using the ostrich2 with this program and using the trace function it turns stock hardware to be tunable to almost a standalone capability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi_cQODTO8c


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Here is another example on an Audi (same basic ecu style).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaiCZKp0w6Y&feature=related


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Chuck,

Clean your inbox!!!!





:laugh:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

So at what power level would you consider a car better off being dyno-tuned than street tuned? Im well under 300whp with mine, and it runs great.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> So at what power level would you consider a car better off being dyno-tuned than street tuned? Im well under 300whp with mine, and it runs great.


I would take any car and atleast get a few pulls on the dyno and see what the car is actually doing (and im not talking about power level here).


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> I would take any car and atleast get a few pulls on the dyno and see what the car is actually doing (and im not talking about power level here).


Its aways wise, its a safe place to tune a car.

Keep in mind folks, a dyno is actually trying to mimic what the car does on the street...although, it can never mimic airflow (very few excepts of dynos in wind tunnels). In any type of testing practically for anything that exists, the best testing is done in which enviornment such is actually used. A dyno is a much more controlled enviorment... and legal


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Its aways wise, its a safe place to tune a car.
> 
> Keep in mind folks, a dyno is actually trying to mimic what the car does on the street...although, it can never mimic airflow (very few excepts of dynos in wind tunnels). In any type of testing practically for anything that exists, the best testing is done in which enviornment such is actually used. A dyno is a much more controlled enviorment... and legal


But the testing on the dyno is in a worst case scenerio and if it will work there it will work on the street.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Hey slcturbo
Time to change your sig
Go flyers go!!!!!


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## VRT (Dec 8, 2001)




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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> But the testing on the dyno is in a worst case scenerio and if it will work there it will work on the street.


Thats actually not true on all dynos, inertia dynos can not change load, so the load difference will not give you the same tune on the street. I had this experience, as well as knowing others with evo's to have this experience too. On my tune, I had ample fuel on the dyno running mid 11's... on the street I maxed the duty cycle and I was in the high 12's.... had to get bigger injectors 
Although I'd admit I was pushing the limits of #30
My buddy's evo was throwing 3-5 knock counts on the street after his tune, no knock on the dyno, and as you know if anything his IAT should of been lower on the street @60+mph

Its always best to take it off the dyno and check the streetability of the tune before your finished. :thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Thats actually not true on all dynos, inertia dynos can not change load, so the load difference will not give you the same tune on the street. I had this experience, as well as knowing others with evo's to have this experience too. On my tune, I had ample fuel on the dyno running mid 11's... on the street I maxed the duty cycle and I was in the high 12's.... had to get bigger injectors
> Although I'd admit I was pushing the limits of #30
> My buddy's evo was throwing 3-5 knock counts on the street after his tune, no knock on the dyno, and as you know if anything his IAT should of been lower on the street @60+mph
> 
> Its always best to take it off the dyno and check the streetability of the tune before your finished. :thumbup:


Who did your tuning? The only problem I have seen is when the fuel trims change when the car is driven on the street.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

In my case we tuned at NGP... and it was the fuel trims that were changed. 
The Evo I don't remember, but the maps are load based (MAF) setup, so it makes sense why it would change slightly.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

I usually check my tunes on the street, most cars will run richer on the dyno so I usually tune low 11s on the dyno


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I don't want to contribute too much to a tangent but I do want to share. So many other factors at play in street vs. dyno tunes... most of the off the shelf chip tunes are based on the collection of data over 4 seasons of variables. With both chip tune and SEM, your environmental condition adjustments are going to be a big part of driving characteristics and they're nearly impossible to replicate on any dyno unless you tune at NASA. You CAN put up a nice full throttle line very quickly and make good power under controlled conditions with the environmental adjustments disabled but tuning accel/warmup/ase/partial load are where you'll find the street and real world conditions are required. Of course the more people that share their standalone setups and settings for what works as far as accel/warmup/ase/partial load then the easier it will be to find something similar to your setup to start from.

You can find a few to start from on:

http://www.msruns.com


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

I dont agree completely with that. Alot of the motronic cars run wide open throttle maps that are not adjustable by sensors and they seem to do just fine.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> I dont agree completely with that. Alot of the motronic cars run wide open throttle maps that are not adjustable by sensors and they seem to do just fine.


in response to:



> You CAN put up a nice full throttle line very quickly and make good power under controlled conditions with the environmental adjustments disabled


 So you do agree?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> in response to:
> 
> 
> 
> So you do agree?


Huh? Yea full throttle tuning is easy if thats what your getting at.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Haven't missed a game if I could help it since 79'-80'. Oh no I'm gonna jump ship because they only made it to the final 8 and lost to a very good team. 

I'd talk hockey with ya, but I'm guessing 1) You don't play and 2) You don't know what your talking about and 3) I was probably watching and playing before most on this forum were born.

Stick to the irrational discussions about how you need management that will let you make 700whp in a fwd car with 205mm street tires. Those are much more entertaining:laugh:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Stick to the irrational discussions about how you need management that will let you make 700whp in a fwd car with 205mm street tires.


If you believe that is all that stand alone is good for then that says it all in as few words.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> If you believe that is all that stand alone is good for then that says it all in as few words.


Not all, but if driveability is ~good with a chip then yes standalone is only needed to make really big power. Not needed for non drag/full caged cars-that says it all:beer:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> Not all, but if driveability is ~good with a chip then yes standalone is only needed to make really big power. Not needed for non drag/full caged cars-that says it all:beer:


No. There is more than one way of doing things. The "zero sum" mentality and pigeon holing is BS. Get your ass off your shoulders already.


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## bdcoombs (Jul 28, 2002)

you guys are still going at it. wow :screwy:

obviously slc thinks his c2 chip will always be better then any standalone.

we all know the truth.. let him believe what he wants.. it prolly makes his car faster :laugh:

wheres the post of the vr that was on c2 and dynoed, then swapped to standalone and gained 40~50 whp

we all know a car on standalone is a full blown drag car :laugh:.. lets just forget about the hundreds of people running dailly cars on standalones all over the world.

HERES MY THOUGHT SLC... Why not get everything out of your build you can.. whether its 250hp or 1000hp.. If there is potential for power from the parts (turbo, head, cams, inejctor, etc) you already have on your car. why not use it. so not only is my setup running the best it possibly can, i have watermeth control, anti lag and flat shift, launch control, boost control, Engine control with my standalone.. you have none of those. so to each their own..


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## bdcoombs (Jul 28, 2002)

SLC. this will be you in a couple years once you realize.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5233600-C2-630-vs-Lugtronic


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRXG15Ja90o&feature=player_embedded


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Haven't missed a game if I could help it since 79'-80'. Oh no I'm gonna jump ship because they only made it to the final 8 and lost to a very good team.
> 
> I'd talk hockey with ya, but I'm guessing 1) You don't play and 2) You don't know what your talking about and 3) I was probably watching and playing before most on this forum were born.
> 
> Stick to the irrational discussions about how you need management that will let you make 700whp in a fwd car with 205mm street tires. Those are much more entertaining:laugh:


LOL
looks like you have the same mentality with everything, not just cars.
Ever heard of AA or AAA hockey, or the OHL? 
Keep guessing
Douche
and oh, just because you watched hockey or played it doesn't make you any good.
Come by my house in Ottawa and i'll show you my collection of MVP trophies from when i played in the late 70's and 80's
And if i have time go to the track i'll show you a slip you'll never get out of your hairdressers special


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

MAN.....there's alot of OLD people in here. :laugh:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

the_q_jet said:


> MAN.....there's alot of OLD people in here. :laugh:


I was just thinking the same thing 41 here LOL


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## thecorradokid24 (Dec 4, 2004)

TIGninja said:


> I was just thinking the same thing 41 here LOL


Well I'm only 24, and I know standalone > chip. Does that make me wise beyond my years? :laugh:


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

the_q_jet said:


> MAN.....there's alot of OLD people in here. :laugh:


yup
old bones, young at heart:heart:
that sounds gay


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> Not all, but if driveability is ~good with a chip then yes standalone is only needed to make really big power. Not needed for non drag/full caged cars-that says it all:beer:



Why settle for "~good" driveability? Obviously the same mass produced chip isn't going to run cleanly across all applications. Sure it may run "good," but you'll never have fuel trims and spark timing as good as they good be for every car. A canned tune is never the best tune for any modified car, unless your mods match 100% the mods that the tune was written for, even the chip tuners will tell you that.

Not going to say standalone is for everyone, but it's only application certainly isn't "big power," as you like to claim.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Why settle for "~good" driveability? Obviously the same mass produced chip isn't going to run cleanly across all applications. Sure it may run "good," but you'll never have fuel trims and spark timing as good as they good be for every car. A canned tune is never the best tune for any modified car, unless your mods match 100% the mods that the tune was written for, even the chip tuners will tell you that.
> 
> Not going to say standalone is for everyone, but it's only application certainly isn't "big power," as you like to claim.


If your car runs well on a chip and makes as much power as you need then how is the $$ and time involved in SEMS worth it? It's not.

Not everyone's a punk kid with time to burn and looking to make a name for himself on the internet. Some think paying $300-$400 for a chip, installing it in 5 min., and having it run OE is the best thing since sliced bread. I'm one of em


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> If your car runs well on a chip and makes as much power as you need then how is the $$ and time involved in SEMS worth it? It's not.
> 
> Not everyone's a punk kid with time to burn and looking to make a name for himself on the internet. Some think paying $300-$400 for a chip, installing it in 5 min., and having it run OE is the best thing since sliced bread. I'm one of em


And some people come away happy because they get the desired results. Some people end up with a car that wont idle or runs rich/lean all over the place. The chip is a gamble.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ch-erp :laugh:


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## colovw (Aug 27, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> And some people come away happy because they get the desired results. Some people end up with a car that wont idle or runs rich/lean all over the place. The chip is a gamble.


Finally need to chime in.

Let me start off by saying I'm DEFINITELY NOT against SEM. In fact I love to tinker. I look for any excuse to get out to the garage and do something. I've been known to tell the wife I need to do work, then just go out and wipe down tools.

I'm reading Hartman's "Tuning EMS" right now because I want to learn more. I'm also ASE certified for gas engines and drivetrains. 

But my ABA golf on 42# C2 does what I want it to do. I commute 50 miles a day with it, and it runs like stock (except for the funny idle. something to do with lack ofvacum:laugh. At 15lbs I can work pretty much anything I come across daily and still pull down 25 mpg. 

I guess I'm a lucky one, but you know what, it works. It is just 2 litres after all. Who cares? It's not fast.

Why argue about which is better? They both have their place, and ultimately it's up to the user to decide what works best for his or her needs.

That being said, I will build a car with stand alone someday soon because I want to do it, AND I want to have control over everything the engine is doing.

Keep up the USEFUL discussion please. I've learned a lot on this forum. Please remember I'm an old man and need to keep up with you youngsters (I painted my first car, a 1940 Pontiac, in 1989). Quit bragging about being old:laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And some people come away happy because they get the desired results. Some people end up with a car that wont idle or runs rich/lean all over the place. The chip is a gamble.


Not much of a gamble man if you're already obd2. $150-$450 depending on new/used and about 10min. of your time to install. That plus you act like certain files aren't proven to work well on the vast majority of cars. A 42# not running well on a well maintained car is the exception, not the rule.

I must have IM'd 50 people running C2's obd2 42# 12V file. Everyone had nothing but good things to say so where's the risk?

Let it go. Chips work for many and aren't going anywhere.:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

colovw said:


> But my ABA golf on 42# C2 does what I want it to do. I commute 50 miles a day with it, and it runs like stock (except for the funny idle. something to do with lack ofvacum:laugh. At 15lbs I can work pretty much anything I come across daily and still pull down 25 mpg.
> 
> I guess I'm a lucky one, but you know what, it works. It is just 2 litres after all. Who cares? It's not fast.
> 
> Why argue about which is better? They both have their place, and ultimately it's up to the user to decide what works best for his or her needs.


Well said and essentially my argument all along. They are two methods to tune a car and both have worked well for many. 

10 pages of people trying to "prove" my setup wrong. The car does what I need it to. The chip worked EXTREMELY well for me and fit my time and budget. There is nothing to poke a hole in. It is funny to watch insecure people try though:laugh:


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

slcturbo said:


> ....10 pages of people trying to "prove" my setup wrong...


Just about everyone in here has admitted your setup works for you, everybody is happy for you :beer:
I can't understand why you keep trying to beat a dead horse. At the very least the point was your setup 'COULD' be better with SEM on a *tuning* aspect only. This is something you can not prove or deny, since you have not done it, but there is supporting evidence in this thread of others going from chip to SEM picking up power and drivability on the exact same setup with same boost levels

I don't understand what else there is possibily to discuss, you really like stirring the pot, it makes you happy:thumbup:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> Just about everyone in here has admitted your setup works for you, everybody is happy for you :beer:
> I can't understand why you keep trying to beat a dead horse. At the very least the point was your setup 'COULD' be better with SEM on a *tuning* aspect only. This is something you can not prove or deny, since you have not done it, but there is supporting evidence in this thread of others going from chip to SEM picking up power and drivability on the exact same setup with same boost levels
> 
> I don't understand what else there is possibily to discuss, you really like stirring the pot, it makes you happy:thumbup:


I cant understand why he thinks this thread is all about him :banghead:


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

slcturbo said:


> i just like c2 because i dont know dick about tuning and they do all the work for me.


hahah


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> hahah


Good one. Here's another.

I like C2 because I have a life outside of dking around with a laptop all day to dial in a tune. There's more to life


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> I cant understand why he thinks this thread is all about him :banghead:


You've brought up my car more than I have. Next time, let me say my peace and leave it at that. All the quoting of my posts/trying to discredit has backfired on you. Hopefully you learned a valuable lesson grasshopper


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## boost_addict (Dec 4, 2009)

im a hobbyist so dicking with a laptop is fun for me.. i just wrote map from scratch last night..(didnt take all day) actually only 2 hours. i import some tables from other files i have but for the most part its from scratch.

this is the smartest thing i have heard you say.. that you dont have the time to play with a SEM.
that makes more sense then saying u dont have a drag car u dont need it.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

I honestly can believe this thread went this far :sly:

Certain people have to understand this....
When you deal with a person that has only used 1 thing. That person tends to defend what he/she bought to prove to themselves that they made the right choice. These people don't wanna hear anything else. Even the truth. It's like a women that marry's and ugly midget. She will try and convince everybody how good her man looks when clearly he'a just and ugly midget. You're happy for and all but she doesn't have to keep reminding you how good her man looks  

People need to open their minds. There will be pro's & con's to everything you buy. Yours might differ from the next. This even applies to the experts cause even the experts differ amongst themselves. Those who use & tune Stand alone will die by it. Same goes for chip tuners & consumers. Rather debating on whats best, what can we do to make what we have better.:thumbup:


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

Ok thats one of the smartest Truthfull postes in this stupid thread:beer::heart::beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

boost_addict said:


> that makes more sense then saying u dont have a drag car u dont need it.


What doesn't make sense about that statement?

Cars on a stock Koni coil spring, power steering, stock brakes, full suspension, sway bars, stock control arm and subframe bushings, stock brakes/abs, no cage/bar, stage .5 mounts. Removed AC to minimize intercooler cutting. That's a race car?:laugh:

I would need a new turbo, a roll bar, bigger intercooler, built motor, gears, a real suspension setup etc. to utilize the benefits of sem. Not interested. There's about 50 other things I would rather do with that $$. I'll enjoy my 11.4x slips and a trans that's in one piece. I'll leave the fan clubs to the guys that want them:beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> What doesn't make sense about that statement?
> 
> Cars on a stock Koni coil spring, power steering, stock brakes, full suspension, sway bars, stock control arm and subframe bushings, stock brakes/abs, no cage/bar, stage .5 mounts. Removed AC to minimize intercooler cutting. That's a race car?:laugh:
> 
> I would need a new turbo, a roll bar, bigger intercooler, built motor, gears, a real suspension setup etc. to utilize the benefits of sem. Not interested. There's about 50 other things I would rather do with that $$. I'll enjoy my 11.4x slips and a trans that's in one piece. I'll leave the fan clubs to the guys that want them:beer:


Again this thread is not about you.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Again this thread is not about you.


It's not? Tell the guy below. That's what I was responding to. Apparently he didn't get your memo



boost_addict said:


> this is the smartest thing i have heard you say.. that you dont have the time to play with a SEM.
> that makes more sense then saying u dont have a drag car u dont need it.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> It's not? Tell the guy below. That's what I was responding to. Apparently he didn't get your memo


And this guy is a tool that has 10 different user names so he can agree with himself. Who cares. His opinion is worthless. Anyone who has ever had a properly tuned standalone knows that this crazy idea that you need to keep messing around with the tune to get it to run right is complete BS. My standalone has more capability to adapt to changing conditions then your stock ecu ever could. My ecu does wideband target A/F mixture. How about yours? Yea I thought so. How about lean cut? This is where if something causes a problem like a fuel pump going bad or something like that and the mixture goes lean can your ecu detect it? Mine can and it cuts just like a boost cut. Oh yea. Boost cut. What does your ecu do about that? Hahahaha Nothing! Get the picture? All these bandaids to fix problems dont work together the way they do in a standalone.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And this guy is a tool that has 10 different user names so he can agree with himself. Who cares. His opinion is worthless. Anyone who has ever had a properly tuned standalone knows that this crazy idea that you need to keep messing around with the tune to get it to run right is complete BS. My standalone has more capability to adapt to changing conditions then your stock ecu ever could. My ecu does wideband target A/F mixture. How about yours? Yea I thought so. How about lean cut? This is where if something causes a problem like a fuel pump going bad or something like that and the mixture goes lean can your ecu detect it? Mine can and it cuts just like a boost cut. Oh yea. Boost cut. What does your ecu do about that? Hahahaha Nothing! Get the picture? All these bandaids to fix problems dont work together the way they do in a standalone.


All that being said, my car ran faster than it's allowed to, broke nothing in 4 years, and I didn't have to tune it. Chip tunes gave me everything I needed.:beer:

Newer components and a wideband are more than enough to keep me from blowing my car up as seen by it's reliability. 200-250 consecutive passes and driven home everytime from the track. That's just me. Some may need more protection.

Pretty sure the apexi avcr will cut boost


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> 200-250 consecutive passes and driven home everytime from the track.


:sly:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> All that being said, my car ran faster than it's allowed to, broke nothing in 4 years, and I didn't have to tune it. Chip tunes gave me everything I needed.:beer:
> 
> Newer components and a wideband are more than enough to keep me from blowing my car up as seen by it's reliability. 200-250 consecutive passes and driven home everytime from the track. That's just me. Some may need more protection.
> 
> Pretty sure the apexi avcr will cut boost


Who wants to talk about something besides SLCturbos car? Meeeeeeeee.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> Who wants to talk about something besides SLCturbos car? Meeeeeeeee.


Me too. Stop quoting my posts or bringing my car up or we'll keep talkin about it. 

Lessons


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

wabbitGTl said:


> :sly:


100% truth.

4 years total, 1 SC, 3 turbo. 50-60 passes a year and I have all the slips. Driven home every time and broke nothing.:beer:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

It's as ridiculous to say that standalone is only for full blown race cars as it is to say that chip tunes are only for street cars, yes? That 50-60 passes annually is relatively high. I've driven my standalone car cross-country more times than I have down a track.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> It's as ridiculous to say that standalone is only for full blown race cars as it is to say that chip tunes are only for street cars, yes? That 50-60 passes annually is relatively high. I've driven my standalone car cross-country more times than I have down a track.


Not only for if you LIKE standalone. It's only NECESSARY for race cars or if there is no decent chip made for your application.

You'll make all the power you need for a fwd street car without it on a 12V at least:thumbup:


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

So not with it? You're not making sense.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Almost got all the wiring figured out to put MS3/3x on my daily. I will keep everyone posted how many times per day I need to tune it.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Also let us know how often you clean your MAF sensor and chase phantom ignition pull.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

DieGTi said:


> Also let us know how often you clean your MAF sensor and chase phantom ignition pull.


And dont forget what happens when the MAF gets dirty what happens to the fuel mixture. I prefer to let the ecu watch the A/F mixture instead of having to drive with one eye on the wideband and one on the road.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

My MAF is Lucas and I am afraid to clean it. Hopefully standalone gets rid of my bank 2 sensor 2 out of range code.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Almost got all the wiring figured out to put MS3/3x on my daily. I will keep everyone posted how many times per day I need to tune it.


I haven't touched my msq (tune file) beyond testing new features in months.


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## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

Looking at a SEM because no one makes a good option for a supercharger and coming from the diesel pick-up world, my dream was always to have a sort of SEM for my trucks.

SLC, thanks for letting me know that while you love your C2 chip (getting married soon?), you are in violation of NHRA rules running a 11.4x and 129mph without a roll bar. If you are going that often, to the same track, the officials should know you and the rules. Rules are 11.5 and 126mph. I have seen guys kicked off my local track for being .2 quicker and 1 mph over after 3 consecutive runs while not slowing down. We are talking launch controlled, slick tired cars.

Chips do work for those who have no time, or have no desire to spend 1 day to tune the car.

SEM has NO bearing on your suspension. Stop bringing that up.:banghead:

TIGninja, quite antagonizing the man! :facepalm:

Now, coming from the endless Powerstroke/Cummins/Duramax debate, we have 3 basic tuning options.

Box foolers (IDK what they are really called. They change the values before the ECU see them and giving a false reading)
Flash programmers (Chips cousin)
EFILive (SEM cousin)

Beyond that, there is nothing. EFILive is the closest thing to a SEM. EFI crack the ECU and now we can change everything. Before only DMaxes had this wonderful tune and it showed. Only 1-2 Dmax specific flash programmers are out these. You can get a PPE system for approximately the same $ as EFILive. EFILive was taking stock 16-18sec trucks and bringing them down to 12sec. Not bad for $900. Full-sized 6500-8500k pound vehicles mind you. It was putting the old king of the diesel world, Cummins, to shame.

Now EFILive has cracked the Cummins ECU and it is showing. 

The flashed maps are horrendous. People were having good results with 1/4 mile times, dynoing, general playing. The biggest gripe though was part throttle response. Look at these:

Flashed:










EFILive smoothed:











I wonder what the maps are like for chips and how the compare to a SEM tuned car.

The great thing about EFILive is tuning for whatever you want. I know diesel > gas when it comes to tune-ability but the DMax guys only tweak a couple of tunes at a time. 1 for driving, 1 for racing, 1 for pulling, 1 for dyno. Each has a slightly different set of parameters. Beyond that, they choose what they want and go.

SLC, how would the drive-ability be if all that we had available to us was a 1.01 A/R housing on the turbo? Sure, all out power and 1/4 miles will be good but whats useful about it if it doesn't spool till 4500 RPMs? opcorn:

Btw, you don't need a separate post for each response. That is why your posts are annoying.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

dodger21 said:


> Looking at a SEM because no one makes a good option for a supercharger and coming from the diesel pick-up world, my dream was always to have a sort of SEM for my trucks.
> 
> SLC, thanks for letting me know that while you love your C2 chip (getting married soon?), you are in violation of NHRA rules running a 11.4x and 129mph without a roll bar. If you are going that often, to the same track, the officials should know you and the rules. Rules are 11.5 and 126mph. I have seen guys kicked off my local track for being .2 quicker and 1 mph over after 3 consecutive runs while not slowing down. We are talking launch controlled, slick tired cars.
> 
> ...


Well for the OBD1 cars (for now) there is tunerpro. OBD1 cars use the same chip style that is common and its a 8 bit processor so it can be emulated without spending a fortune. If you search my threads on OBD1 motronic tuning all the info is there but it will take time to develop a DXF file for your car (this can also be done for OBD2 but it has to be done with a eeprom adapter or a 44 pin PLCC eeprom). Its also very hard to emulate OBD2 because its a 16bit instead of 8.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

dodger..

Dude nice novel bro:beer: With that kinda time you are a perfect candidate for SEMS:thumbup:

I am aware of the 11.50 rule which is why I'm not trying to make anymore power.

I'll tell you like I told the rest on a crusade. There's no right or wrong answer simply because the market of people that add FI to their car is so broad. From serious drag racer to the 40 yr old with 3 kids who just wants to add another 50hp and pass emissions. Only the truly ignorant and ultra biased would suggest they should pick the same tuning method, but I'll let em keep doing it:wave:

You brought me up so here goes:

-I achieved my goals with a chip tune

-My car runs flawless

-The car has been dead reliable for 4 years 

-I can't tell you how glad I am that I went chip and not standalone

It was the right choice for me. If someone has issue with that it points to a problem with themselves and not with chip tunes specifically. 

Trust me I get it. "I can tune a car, I spent alot of $$, I bought an ECU from the cool tuner, say I'm better dammit!" That really is the heart of it and illustrates the emotional maturity of the forum. 

Ok enough logic. Carry on:laugh:


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Almost got all the wiring figured out to put MS3/3x on my daily. I will keep everyone posted how many times per day I need to tune it.


Just run faster than a 12.83 at some point or your signature will continue to support my argument.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> Just run faster than a 12.83 at some point or your signature will continue to support my argument.


Whats your best all motor et?


----------



## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

wabbitGTl said:


> Whats your best all motor et?


What's yours?

14.81 I believe. I never tried allmotor due to not wanting to have to gut the car to run 12's which is what you have to do.

Just odd that he ran slower with a better motor on standalone than a 12V on a chip tune. Not much of an advertisement for his tuning IMO.


----------



## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> What's yours?
> 
> 14.81 I believe. I never tried allmotor due to not wanting to have to gut the car to run 12's which is what you have to do.
> 
> Just odd that he ran slower with a better motor on standalone than a 12V on a chip tune. Not much of an advertisement for his tuning IMO.


You have nothing to add about chip tuning then this stupid crap then you shouldnt be in this thread. You know nothing about standalone and very little about chip tuning. You detract from the quality of the thread and are just here to feed your ego.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

slcturbo said:


> What's yours?
> 
> 14.81 I believe. I never tried allmotor due to not wanting to have to gut the car to run 12's which is what you have to do.
> 
> Just odd that he ran slower with a better motor on standalone than a 12V on a chip tune. Not much of an advertisement for his tuning IMO.


This isn't about me, but since you asked I went 15.01 in a bone stock unmodified VR6. There's nothing odd about running 12.8x in a car that's not boosted, and thats a damn good testament to his tune. Show me a chipped 12v running that fast all motor. Get your head out of the dark man!


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

you sure are hard on Paul... 

i think my posts are more useful than yours :laugh: 


:screwy:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> What's yours?
> 
> 14.81 I believe. I never tried allmotor due to not wanting to have to gut the car to run 12's which is what you have to do.
> 
> Just odd that he ran slower with a better motor on standalone than a 12V on a chip tune. Not much of an advertisement for his tuning IMO.


My Mk3 compared to your car was missing a few bits compared to your "omg only true street car" setup that you go on and on about, ad nauseaum. I also managed to run almost a sec quicker then your "all motor not worth it" time in a 2700lb car with a stock longblock, stock trans and reg street tires... With ice cold ac which seems so important to you. 

I put the 3.2 in my car to do r&d for my business. For some reason that doesnt seem to make any sense tp you. I ran a whopping .07s slower then my best 12v time, on the third hit of the motor, with 120deg intake temps, 50lbs heavier, with not the most optimal final drive. Doesnt sound too bad and a shedload quicker than high 14s...

If you want to dig on my tune, go ahead once you have run one and have ANY room to talk. 

You should really look between the seat and steering wheel if you want to find whats wrong with your setup. Talk about wasting money, you could have run the same et as you have on 22s and 30lbs. I bet it would be tough to look in the mirror to figure all that out though. 

The next thing I am putting standalone on is my tractor. I will bet it will run 12s


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## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

slcturbo said:


> From serious drag racer to the 40 yr old with 3 kids who just wants to add another 50hp and pass emissions. Only the truly ignorant and ultra biased would suggest they should pick the same tuning method, but I'll let em keep doing it...
> 
> It was the right choice for me. If someone has issue with that it points to a problem with themselves and not with chip tunes specifically.
> 
> Trust me I get it. "I can tune a car, I spent alot of $$, I bought an ECU from the cool tuner, say I'm better dammit!" That really is the heart of it and illustrates the emotional maturity of the forum.


Great! I was seriously considering a 42lbs C2 turbo chip for my supercharged ABA.

I see you make 1 assumptions and 2 error I see here.

1) You are assuming how old I am and what is going on in my life
2) You think we have a problem with your choice
3) Just change it a bit to:



> Trust me I get it. "I can _*chip*_ a car, I spent _*minimal*_ $$, I bought a _*chip*_ from the cool store, say I'm better dammit!" That really is the heart of it and illustrates the emotional maturity of the forum.


Really, I asked a serious question.

need_a_VR6 has answered many questions and I mentioned buying a C2 and it didn't phase him at all. He kept answering questions about his product and _never bashed C2_. I doubt I could get that from you.

I have spent so far:

$140 for an Eaton M62 S/C
$60 for a Neuspeed S/C ECU
$90 for a 4 bar FPR
$15 in hardware
Scrap steel laying around

Total: $345

Looking to spend another:

$40 for green top Bosch 42lbs injectors
$50 for the intake
$210 wideband O2 system

And my choice of software.

Now if I go C2, I am spending $300 for a chip alone that has no guarantee to work with the S/C but is plug-and-play and I don't need to spend a lot of time with.

Or I can spend another $400 and get a stand-alone that I know can be tuned for it but I need to wire it in and plug in a computer to play with it.

So which would be better in your opinion?

You now know my build. It is for a reliable DD, weekend warrior, and all around fun. I plan on going on cruises, 1400mi round trips, track day, 1/4mi racing.

Also, do not give me a sob story of not enough time. I have time when I make it. Currently, I have nothing but church on Sundays but even that is changing.

If I want it, I will achieve it.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You should really look between the seat and steering wheel if you want to find whats wrong with your setup. Talk about wasting money, you could have run the same et as you have on 22s and 30lbs. I bet it would be tough to look in the mirror to figure all that out though.
> 
> The next thing I am putting standalone on is my tractor. I will bet it will run 12s


Sounds like alot of excuses to me

Trap 129mph on 22's and 30# at 2700lbs? Show me who's done it. 

While your at it show me another VRT that's running mid 11's, made ~200 passes over the past 4 years, and has broken nothing. Leaving a little on the table for the sake of reliability= priceless. You can do that when you build a car for yourself and to gain a teenage fan club on the internet.

"I race for people on the internet now"-I believe were your exact words. I couldn't believe you actually said that. I found it pathetic and sad

Good luck on that fan club. Gonna take more than 12.8's though I would think:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

dodger21 said:


> If I want it, I will achieve it.


Ridin my dk hard. It's ok you wont be the first or the last.

I don't care about you or your car man. State your opinion as you see fit, build the car you want, etc. etc. Doesn't make me happy or sad. Run 9's, 14's, make 800whp or 200whp doesn't make you any more or less relevant to what I'm doing. 

I built the car I wanted and absolutely love the results.

You should do the same


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The next thing I am putting standalone on is my tractor. I will bet it will run 12s


But you put the R32 motor in the same car.

R32 + Sems < 12V + chip?

Problem must be who's in front of the lap top:laugh:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> You have nothing to add about chip tuning then this stupid crap then you shouldnt be in this thread. You know nothing about standalone and very little about chip tuning. You detract from the quality of the thread and are just here to feed your ego.


It sucks when the person who's balls you set out to bust turns the tables.

Next time let people have an opinion different than your own without insulting them every other post. This is what it leads to. 23 pages of BS.:thumbdown:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

slcturbo said:


> Ridin my dk hard. It's ok you wont be the first or the last.
> 
> I don't care about you or your car man. State your opinion as you see fit, build the car you want, etc. etc. Doesn't make me happy or sad. Run 9's, 14's, make 800whp or 200whp doesn't make you any more or less relevant to what I'm doing.
> 
> ...


And why does everything here have to be relevant to what your doing? Your setup would be much faster then it is if you had a standalone but you dont know this because you refuse to listen to any other viewpoint that isnt relevant to what you have done.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And why does everything here have to be relevant to what your doing? *Your setup would be much faster then *it is if you had a standalone but you dont know this because you refuse to listen to any other viewpoint that isnt relevant to what you have done.


I just respond. Other people keep bringing my car up. For instance, the post of mine you quoted was inresponse to a novel directed at me. Wouldn't it be better for you to quote his post and explain to him the thread isn't about me? Just a suggestion. Your doing the same thing. Guess you like talking about my car:laugh:

Reread what I put in bold. I don't listen? I set out to build a 11.50 car. It ran 11.49. I don't want to go faster. Understand? 

Street car that's drag raced is not the same as a race car that's driven on the street. The former cares about stereo, comfort, braking, handling, mpg, etc. The latter only cares about ET.

Faster than. Not faster then. Don't and isn't. Not dont and isnt. Use commas, etc. If you have to be a genius to tune a car then clean up your grammar so you sound like one.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Just got over 34mpg with my 16vt running sem tonight, with an 020 2y to boot.:thumbup: Try doing that with a chiptune.:laugh:

There's more left in it too, id guess maybe 1-2 mpg more.


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## fastrabbit (Jan 17, 2002)

slcturbo said:


> I just respond. Other people keep bringing my car up. For instance, the post of mine you quoted was inresponse to a novel directed at me. Wouldn't it be better for you to quote his post and explain to him the thread isn't about me? Just a suggestion. Your doing the same thing. Guess you like talking about my car:laugh:
> 
> Reread what I put in bold. I don't listen? I set out to build a 11.50 car. It ran 11.49. I don't want to go faster. Understand?
> 
> ...


Im getting a chip tune..... thanks slcturbo.. Im sold :screwy:


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## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

Dude! I asked a serious question!

Ask Paul! I don't know if I am getting his complete setup as I am not made of money. I was seriously asking you a question on chipping my car.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

What do you want to know, I will give an unbiased opinion. I have run two diffent chip tune setups, so I have some expeince with them. Feel free to PM me if you like.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Dave926 said:


> Just got over 34mpg with my 16vt running sem tonight, with an 020 2y to boot.:thumbup: Try doing that with a chiptune.:laugh:
> 
> There's more left in it too, id guess maybe 1-2 mpg more.


I get 30mpg. Congrats:wave:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

TIGninja said:


> And you have never been able to chip tune your car because you lack the brain power. This is a car forum, and your grammar details and spelling details mean nothing here. Now go report all my posts to the moderators you baby


I've chip tuned 2 cars:laugh:

Brain power. Yeah ok. What's your education level?

Some people use their brain power to make more $$ than a tuner ever could. Does that make them dumb because they don't tune cars?

You really think tuning a car makes you smart? Really? Too funny.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

slcturbo said:


> I get 30mpg. Congrats:wave:


As do I if I keep my foot out of it, lol.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Ok guys. Dont do what has failed for every other brand of car. There are guys still trying to run the OBX manifolds and some claim they actually work. Its pretty hard for most people to justify taking the manifolds off and sending them in for warranty every two weeks. Some people are a little more hard headed and they made that decision and they are going to stick with it not matter how much BS it costs them and they will justify it by the price.

Nobody runs the OBX manifolds anymore for obvious reasons. They dont use off the shelf tunes for the same reason. Learn from their mistakes and dont buy OBX manifolds or use off the shelf chip tunes.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I respect your opinion and I will not argue the SEM vs chips. I can say that the tune I have right now is not crap. SEM is only as good as the tuner who tuned it. SEM cars can blow up also. I am sure you know this and it is usually the persons own fault and has nothing to do with what SEM they were using. Sometimes, they just pushed the motor to the point of failure. I know SEM is far better than a chip tune, unless its custom to my setup. I also know that what I have right now is basically a base map, over fueled and conservitive on timing.

Also, in an effort to improve this thread and provide info for everyone, I will add this. The main downfall of the chip is it's reliance on the MAF sensor. If the MAF is reading turbulant air then your part throttle driveability will suck and partial load fuel economy will suffer also. The key to getting these setups to work well is to keep the filter off the MAF, keep the DV vent as close to the turbo as possible and keep the MAF as far away from the turbo as possible. Others have also seen improvement from welding the DV vent at a angle pointing it at the turbo inlet. The simple thing to do is to install some type of flow corrector in front of the MAF, just like the stock one has. Some good reading is availble on the Pro maf web sight also covering more on these modifications. 

MAF's can support more power than anyone is making on a VW right now, the problem is that when this fuel setup was designed, it was made to fit in a stock like location. It was not designed to provide the best flow for the MAF. The things listed above have made my car run almost stock at partial load and cruise. I do not have a flow corrector yet though, so there is room for improvement. I will also venture to say that when these tune were wrote, they may have been done on a dyno. There would not have been any ouside air flow hitting the MAF like would be cruising down the road. Also the intake design they used when they wrote the tune would have effects on the signal's stability. If you use something drastically diffrent it could change the flow of the system negatively. Can't recal our stock MAF's.

Chip tunes can offer your everyday "Joe" a chance to have some boost, make some power and have some fun. I just don't see why people hate that so much, you can get used stuff for dirt cheap around here so cost is not a big factor. To the people who read this you should know that chip tunes are not perfect and might take some tweeks to get it to give good part throttle stability. Be prepaired to clean your MAF often and also be prepaired to replace the MAF if your stock ones is old and crappy.

I really hope this post helps someone or just gets this info out there. I hope it's just not gas on a fire as it is not intended to be.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I respect your opinion and I will not argue the SEM vs chips. I can say that the tune I have right now is not crap. SEM is only as good as the tuner who tuned it. SEM cars can blow up also. I am sure you know this and it is usually the persons own fault and has nothing to do with what SEM they were using, or they just pushed the motor to the point of failure. I know SEM is far better than a chip tune, unless its custom to my setup. I also know that what I have right now is basically a base map, over fueled and conservitive on timing.


I agree 100%. If you run a chip tune then the best way is a custom tune for your car. This is the way that most non VW cars are tuned for aftermarket parts. Why do they do this? Because its the best way to get a proper tune. We sell the tunes alot of you guys are running here for hondas (and get about the same results).LOL they are base tunes that let the car run well enough to get to the dyno. I think they run about $25 LOL 

So. Can any tuner tune a VW? Yes pretty much. Most of them already have the equipment to do so. This is something I have been trying to encourage for years (and no im not some evil dont chip your car guy like SLC would have you believe). 

So lets look at the SLC setup for a second. The amount of money he spent on all his add-on boxes he could have had a tuned plug and play system. He also wouldnt have to deal with cleaning his MAF all the time and would have the ability to upgrade to anything he chose in the future. He would also be much faster.

Standalone also makes other things possible. In the future I will be upgrading to AWD and using the haltech to control the Haldex. I also plan on running the racepack in my car which runs CAN-BUS from the haltech.

E85 is the best thing ever for stock compression and boost. If you can tune for E85 then you dont need to lower your compression. The VW engines need high boost to make power. An off the shelf chip tune wont get you there because E85 is not an option.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> I agree 100%. If you run a chip tune then the best way is a custom tune for your car. This is the way that most non VW cars are tuned for aftermarket parts. Why do they do this? Because its the best way to get a proper tune. We sell the tunes alot of you guys are running here for hondas (and get about the same results).LOL they are base tunes that let the car run well enough to get to the dyno. I think they run about $25 LOL
> 
> So. Can any tuner tune a VW? Yes pretty much. Most of them already have the equipment to do so. This is something I have been trying to encourage for years (and no im not some evil dont chip your car guy like SLC would have you believe).
> 
> ...


Very good post, United Motorsports is working on a E-85 tune for the R32. I completely understand your position on this matter, just wanted to point out that I will never be as hardcore as some on here. Chips have not done me wrong.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I respect your opinion and I will not argue the SEM vs chips. I can say that the tune I have right now is not crap. SEM is only as good as the tuner who tuned it. SEM cars can blow up also. I am sure you know this and it is usually the persons own fault and has nothing to do with what SEM they were using, or they just pushed the motor to the point of failure. I know SEM is far better than a chip tune, unless its custom to my setup. I also know that what I have right now is basically a base map, over fueled and conservitive on timing.
> 
> Also, in an effort to improve this thread and provide info for everyone I will add this. The main downfall of the chip is it's reliance on the MAF sensor. If the MAF is reading turbulant air then your part throttle driveability will suck and partial load fuel economy will suffer also. The key to getting these setups to work well is to keep the filter off the MAF, keep the DV vent as close to the turbo as possible and keep the MAF as far away from the turbo as possible. Others have also seen improvement from welding the DV vent at a angle pointing it at the turbo inlet. The simple thing to do is to install some type of flow corrector in front of the MAF, just like the stock one has. Some good reading is availble on the Pro maf web sight also.
> 
> ...


....oh my god thank you!!!!!.... That is some great advice... I finally finished my build with the um 440 tune... And it needs alittle tweaking...and this actually will help me out... I didnt even want to start a topic about it because lately if anyone posts some issue they are having...the response is..."go sem"....or "should have gone stand alone"... Itd getting to point almost that you cant get help with this stuff sometimes....

But anyhow thanks for the tips...its the only good in the damn thread....


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

This thread brings these sayings to mind:

Proverbs 26:4-5 ; 29:9


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

A fool I may be, atleast I put my opinion out there.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

GinsterMan98 said:


> A fool I may be, atleast I put my opinion out there.


Every time I put my opinion out there clownface reports me to the mods


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

TIGninja said:


> Every time I put my opinion out there clownface reports me to the mods


Yeah, you guys get along about as good as a pack of dogs and a pile of meat.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

slcturbo said:


> Sounds like alot of excuses to me
> 
> Trap 129mph on 22's and 30# at 2700lbs? Show me who's done it.
> 
> While your at it show me another VRT that's running mid 11's, made ~200 passes over the past 4 years, and has broken nothing. Leaving a little on the table for the sake of reliability= priceless. You can do that when you build a car for yourself and to gain a teenage fan club on the internet.


Since when does trap speed get you to the end of the track quicker  



slcturbo said:


> But you put the R32 motor in the same car.
> 
> R32 + Sems < 12V + chip?
> 
> Problem must be who's in front of the lap top:laugh:


Bone stock 3.2 + SEM with three passes and a crap final drive for the torque = Well built and developed 12v (over a few years) with a GIAC cam chip running *exactly what Garret Lim intended* with a few hundred passes on it

Just because YOU couldn't go fast on 22s/30lb doesn't mean someone with some practice couldn't. You threw power at the car, easy way out. It was an 11.50 car with that.. now it's a high 10 car running 11.50s. Congrats.

I also find it amusing that you think "tuners" aren't very smart, and can't make a decent living. I'd post my resume but I don't want your yambags to shrink anymore then they are and send you into roid rage.:facepalm:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Boost112 said:


> ....oh my god thank you!!!!!.... That is some great advice... I finally finished my build with the um 440 tune... And it needs alittle tweaking...and this actually will help me out... I didnt even want to start a topic about it because lately if anyone posts some issue they are having...the response is..."go sem"....or "should have gone stand alone"... Itd getting to point almost that you cant get help with this stuff sometimes....
> 
> But anyhow thanks for the tips...its the only good in the damn thread....


I glad it will help someone.:thumbup:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

slcturbo said:


> I get 30mpg. Congrats:wave:


Thats with a 3.67 final drive and 0.91 fifth. Turns 4k rpm at 80mph or so. 




slcturbo said:


> I've chip tuned 2 cars:laugh:
> 
> Brain power. Yeah ok. What's your education level?
> 
> ...


Do you not understand this mentality is what irritates people? Your condescending attitude towards others that are not married, have kids or other financial obligations is completely ignorant. Just because you have a diploma of some sort does NOT make you better than another person. 

Chuck, how long have you been welding? Schooling like that only takes you so far in life.

Successful tuner shops, if your not an idiot, can make a decent income. A local shop, that specializes in primarily domestics, does VERY well. Guy who started it was nothing more than a basic mechanic, who now has a mid 8's street car.

You seem to misunderstand one thing that YOU bring up, and no one else has. Its not about how much money you make, its if your happy what your doing.:banghead: No one really here gives a **** what you do for work, or you attending college for a CPA.



need_a_VR6 said:


> Since when does trap speed get you to the end of the track quicker
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I lol'd at this one. Arent you an EE?


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## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Since when does trap speed get you to the end of the track quicker


I will defend SLC to a point here.

There are 2 factors in 1/4 drags that can effectively tell you how much power you are making.

ET tells you how quickly everything is working to get you to the end.

Trap speed tells you how much power you are making.

The closer your trap speed horsepower is to ET horsepower, the better. For example, if SLC had an automatic that could hold and shift firmly, is 393 whp would get him a full second quicker, even greater than, 10.5.

But he has to shift. That takes time. So his trap speed is a better indicator to his overall HP but it is not that close even then. The time it takes for him to shift, he loses boost and has to make up for it and the shift.

If there was an auto that held up, I would guess at his current setup would be around 10.00 sec flat @ 136 mph pushing 500hp...

There you have it.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

There is a pretty well built vrt in the automatic forum lol


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Since when does trap speed get you to the end of the track quicker
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice one Paul! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

For the record I'm "just" a "dumb mechanic" with a high school education.....and over 2000 hours of job related professional training and 28 years of experience. The only reason I don't have 3 or 4 degrees is that I don't have the time to do the necessary residency at a college or university. And yes I PROUDLY call myself a tuner.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

My new toy. It gets all its info via can-bus from my standalone.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Standalone Balling right there :thumbup::beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Standalone Balling right there :thumbup::beer:


The can-bus stuff is bad ass. It plugs into the haltech just like a phone jack. It takes about 10 min to set up the outputs and it reads the info right out of the haltech.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Very nice. Id like one of those but after running sds and a cluster that didnt work, i am happy with kevs harness and a working cluster


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> My new toy. It gets all its info via can-bus from my standalone.


great displays/loggers. i'll be running a UDX in my Syncro. Just waiting for them to finally ship the OBD2 adapter.


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## AAdontworkx3 (Oct 1, 2002)

TIGninja said:


> The can-bus stuff is bad ass. It plugs into the haltech just like a phone jack. It takes about 10 min to set up the outputs and it reads the info right out of the haltech.


How are you getting speed readings to the sem unit? Magnetic sensor on the driveshaft? Or stock tranny sensor?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

AAdontworkx3 said:


> How are you getting speed readings to the sem unit? Magnetic sensor on the driveshaft? Or stock tranny sensor?


The stock sensor in the trans is running into haltech to run boost by gear.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

IQ3? The only thing I don't like is how little it is... and no turn signal indicators for 'street car' feel


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I've seen motorcycle dash displays that are about the size of a cell phone in some cars in addition to a separate tachometer. Has a lot of the basic information you would want... and blinker indicators.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> IQ3? The only thing I don't like is how little it is... and no turn signal indicators for 'street car' feel


You can hook up the indicators pretty easily.


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## a2vrtboosted (Jun 19, 2011)

opcorn::sly:


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## RaBiT2.5T (Jun 29, 2011)

I have a Daily Driver not a race car... with that said has anyone heard of or ran Revo Technik engine mgnt? available through USRT. Its more of a plug and play with a little bit of tunning features.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

.therealvrt said:


> Very nice. Id like one of those but after running sds and a cluster that didnt work, i am happy with kevs harness and a working cluster


That's weird my tach works perfectly with the SDS coil tach output wire.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

sp_golf said:


> That's weird my tach works perfectly with the SDS coil tach output wire.


Ya. I have learnt alot about mk3 electrical in the last two years. My mechanic in TO was giving me bad info


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Here in my latest dyno on the poor old 8v  I know I need more cam.


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## purple-pill (Feb 2, 2003)

Ya beat my numbers, know go run a 10 sec pass.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

purple-pill said:


> Ya beat my numbers, know go run a 10 sec pass.


Yea but you didnt have billet turbos to battle the 8v head with


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> Here in my latest dyno on the poor old 8v  I know I need more cam.


Nice, you should maybe look into a custom grind, what cam are you running now?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

sp_golf said:


> Nice, you should maybe look into a custom grind, what cam are you running now?


Its a TT 272. There are still alot of bigger cams available.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

purple-pill said:


> Ya beat my numbers, know go run a 10 sec pass.


You think maybe valve float? Boost is good across the board.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

TIGninja said:


> Its a TT 272. There are still alot of bigger cams available.


True but most of them have a lot of overlap. I guess either way the're cheap and easy enough to change :beer:


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

purple-pill said:


> Ya beat my numbers, know go run a 10 sec pass.



Didn't, (yours was 441 SAE) and your mis-spelling of the word "now" is inexcusable.

Chuck, something is effed up there big time. Valve float, valves sticking open, or something. I would expect to hear big misfires for a power loss that big. It's not just the cam.
When you can hold 400whp to 8,500 rpm, then we can talk .


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I would try a few out. The 12vs do well on the big ones that "shouldnt work"


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

Dave926 said:


> There is a pretty well built vrt in the automatic forum lol



I have one... Automatic with a GT40r


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## firehawk6188 (Jun 16, 2011)

Here's what i'm going with, 95 Golf ABA, T3/T4, etc etc....


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## firehawk6188 (Jun 16, 2011)

I have it all assembled, was playing with it with a Jimstim, seems to work fine. 

I *NEED* a base ABA tune to play with........MS3.....please?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Http://www.Msruns.com and find an ms2 file. A lot of the basic settings match. Put in specific information for injectors, outputs, coils etc.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

I've been playing with Lugtronic for about a month now. Easy to use and tune and I like being able to keep AC here in AZ. Plus you can run launch control and water/meth through the ECU. It won't pass local emissions but the vehicle isn't registered here


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

KubotaPowered said:


> I've been playing with Lugtronic for about a month now. Easy to use and tune and I like being able to keep AC here in AZ. Plus you can run launch control and water/meth through the ECU. It won't pass local emissions but the vehicle isn't registered here


 Fun stuff to play with - it's like un-tying your hands. :thumbup: 

You could always find a pre-obd chassis to swap into... they pass AZ sniff on megasquirt fairly easily.


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## hotsk1llet98 (Sep 2, 2008)

cabzilla said:


> I ran standalone (DTA) for four years. I learned it inside and out and could write maps on the fly. It worked, I had full control and made good power. For a street car, just build it right and run a chip tune. I'll never go without knock control on a street-driven 91-octane car again. Obviously if you're going for huge power a self tuning (what I would have given for that **** back in the day) standalone system is the way to go. I'm building a new mk3 vrt using what I've learned since I first put a turbo on a vr in 2002. It will make 400hp on the stock ecu and I will have fun driving it on the street.


How about the days when we forced 120PSI of fuel through 180CC stock injectors on an EIP chip? Wow times have changed.


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## hotsk1llet98 (Sep 2, 2008)

pimS said:


> I'm from the netherlands, over here they measure O2, CO2 and CO at idle and 3000 rpm in neutral.
> I passed the test with my #42 chip and my original CAT, but it only made it after letting the engine warm up for 20/30 min or so.
> 
> So for emissions i'd probably only have to make a map were it'd be running lean @ around 3000 rpm and idle.
> ...


Since you're in Holland, check out the Kroneburg Management System-KMS. They are in Geldrop.
http://kms.vankronenburg.nl/contact_nl.html Ask for Martijn VanBakel


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

hotsk1llet98 said:


> Since you're in Holland, check out the Kroneburg Management System-KMS. They are in Geldrop.
> http://kms.vankronenburg.nl/contact_nl.html Ask for Martijn VanBakel


Finally someone that knows what the're talking about lol


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