# Oil Change, Maintenance & Service Schedules (includes TB 17-06-01) [TOC]



## MrGTI (Feb 14, 2000)

*Oil Change on a Phaeton*

A customer brought an interesting question today,...
What does an oil change on a Phaeton cost?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change on a Phaeton (MrGTI)*

Nothing, for the first 4 years. ALL service is included in the purchase price of the car.


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## MrGTI (Feb 14, 2000)

Yes, that is correct.
But what would it cost afterwards? Any idea?
The discussion was around the cost because he was comparing it to a BMW 7 series, and he didn't like the $200 Cdn he was paying for an oil change. He asked what the service would cost on the Phaeton, and i had to admit that i had never looked into it. I'd like to have an idea so that next time i will have an answer.


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: (MrGTI)*

The Audi dealer charged about 50$ for an oil change
(and they frequently sent coupons as well), and when I requested synthetic for my S8, it cost me $100(just the oil). The engine has near the same oil capacity; 9qts for the V8 Phaeton (vs 8 qts in my s8) but the W12 being the W12 has 12.5 qt capacity. 200$ would be way too high under normal circumstances in my opinion. Oil changes are not rocket science after all, and as one of the most basic items of routine maintainance must keep some modicum (however small) of competition with all the Jiffy lubes, etc. around I suspect- at least in my experience...I could envision 100$ for the W12, but it would be a big stretch for the V8...
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (viscount)*

According to the owner manual, the W12 engine oil needs to be changed every 10,000 miles. This seems to me to be awfully frequently - I know that the European Phaetons use a flexible service interval that calculates oil change intervals based on trend monitoring (thermal cycles, load, etc.), and I think the European intervals are much longer than 10K miles.
Anyway - There are no special oil requirements that I can find in the owner manual, and no stickers under the hood (like the new TDI's) that specify a super-fancy oil must be used. The owner manual says the oil must be API Service SJ classified, and should be SAE 5W-40. So, the cost of the oil itself should not be above average.
There is a huge belly fairing on the bottom of the Phaeton. I don't know how difficult or time consuming it is to remove it. The technician also has to do quite a bit of fooling around with the level control system to prepare the vehicle for jacking, assuming a conventional hoist is used. So, my guess would be about an hour of labour, total, to do an oil change. 
There is no recommendation in the owner manual about changing the oil filter, I guess that means that we are expected to change the filter each time we change the oil.
The Bentley manual (on CD) for the Phaeton gives no information at all about how to change the oil.
Michael


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

VWOA Dealers now install ONLY Synthetic...


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## MrGTI (Feb 14, 2000)

With Canadian dealerships charging about $70+ (Cdn) an hour for labour, i could see how a Phaeton could be easily be $100 (plus tax) for an oil change.
I'll keep this info in mind for future reference. Thanks.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (MrGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrGTI* »_But what would it cost afterward? Any idea? ... He asked what the service would cost on the Phaeton, and I had to admit that i had never looked into it. I'd like to have an idea so that next time i will have an answer.

Hi Peter:
Here's a scan of the service record I received from my dealer when I had the first oil change done on my W12 last week. It shows CAD $150 for the oil and the filter element, and CAD $75 for one hour of labour to change the oil. Personally, I think the dealership lost a whole whack of money on that transaction - I know that the Phaeton Technician spent all morning carefully inspecting my car, because it was the first time I had brought it in for scheduled service since I took delivery of it in October of 2004. I guess my local dealer goes above and beyond what VW pays for in the form of 'service included'. 
In addition to doing the oil and filter change, they also topped up the windshield washer fluid, double-checked the wheel alignment to make sure it was still within specifications, did a full diagnostic scan, and washed and vacuumed the car for me. 
All in all, first class service. My dealer is actually pretty close to you - it is Volkswagen Richmond Hill.
Michael
*Work Order for first oil change at 5,000 miles (8,000 km)*


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## uberanalyst (Sep 13, 2004)

On Touaregs with essentially the same V8 engine, VW dealers charge anywhere from $100 - $300 for an oil change.
So I expect you'd see the same kind of variability with Phaeton V8 oil changes (again, after the warranty period expires).
- Dave


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (uberanalyst)*

The above work order is for a W12 engine that took 13 litres of oil.
Michael


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## VWGUY4EVER (Nov 17, 2000)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

My W8 Passat holds 9qts and I do it myself, now using Pentosin 5w40 which I get from a local parts house at $5.50 per qt plus $12 for the filter. It's great having my own shop to do it in.








As far as 10,000 mile oil changes being too frequent, as a Mercedes service advisor for nearly 5 years (before I quit), We replaced many a cam & lifter as well as a few engines in their entirety before 60k due to sludging issues.....


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (VWGUY4EVER)*

Well, I'm not too worried about the oil change interval. I figure that VW must know what they are talking about when they recommend that the oil be changed every 10,000 miles after the first oil change at 5,000 miles. They warrant the car bumper to bumper for 4 years, and the powertrain for much longer than that, so it is in their own economic best interest to make the most suitable recommendation about when to change the oil, and what kind to put in the car.
But - the last thing I want to do is start an 'oil change' thread, those are worse than religion or politics. Everyone has their own opinion.
Michael


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

I've seen Phaeton V8 oil changes range in price from $99.00 to $115.00 US. This includes the cost of synthetic oil. It takes about an hour and a half to do, with removing the engine covers and one air filter.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Anyway - There are no special oil requirements that I can find in the owner manual, and no stickers under the hood (like the new TDI's) that specify a super-fancy oil must be used. The owner manual says the oil must be API Service SJ classified, and should be SAE 5W-40. So, the cost of the oil itself should not be above average.

Michael,
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on that one... 
Booklet 3.2, page 39 states "If you need to add oil between oil changes, use high-quality synthetic-based oil with correct specifications...[a]t the time this manual was printed, engine oils available in the US that meet Volkswagen oil standard 502.00 are synthetic engine oils. This does not mean, however, that every synthetic engine oil will meet Volkswagen oil standard 502.00. So always be sure that you use an approved oil."
Here, we use the Castrol Syntec in the black bottle (note: not the same as you can buy at your local auto parts store). If you decide not to have your oil changes done by a VW dealership after the warranty's up, then at least buy the oil here so yo get the right stuff.
Please please please don't go dumping mineral-based oil in there.
Please.








Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

Hi Chris:
Thanks for posting that information. I don't disagree with you at all. We might have different versions (different revision status) of the owner manual, either because a newer one has come out since I got my car, or perhaps because I am in a different country - or maybe even because I have a different engine (BAP), I'm not sure.
I had a look at the book that came with my car - it seems to be a bit more permissive in scope. In practice, I don't worry too much about oil specifications, because I always take my VW's to my VW dealer to have any required service completed. I note that they used 505 01 oil when they did the oil change on my car, which is an approved specification.
I have posted a scan from my owner manual below (print status: 08:2003) and also attached a document, in PDF form (see the bottom of this post, under the picture) that provides specifications and fluid capacities for all 2004 Phaeton consumables. Some years ago, VW used to provide this level of detail to the owners in the specifications and reference section of the owner manual - it is unfortunate that they don't do this any more. I guess they had to free up the space for all the 'useful information' that now comprises booklet 2.1. 
Michael
*Engine Oil Information from book 241.551.RD1.21*


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_...I figure that VW must know what they are talking about when they recommend that the oil be changed every 10,000 miles... But - the last thing I want to do is start an 'oil change' thread, those are worse than religion or politics. Everyone has their own opinion.
Michael

Well said. I agree. Yet, I change my oil in my V8 phaeton every 5000 miles. No logic, just paranoid and compulsive engine pampering. At 10,000 mile intervals VW pays for it. 5000 miles between intervals, I pay for it at $98.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: (iluvmcr)*

Robert....
I am planning the same service interval - change every 5k miles... I have always had good luck in the past changing the oil every 3k miles in engines that use mineral based oil.
It is a relatively cheap way to provide substantial protection to a major component of the vehicle.
Douglas


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (copernicus0001)*

I dropped by my VW dealer today (just for social reasons, the car is working great), and picked up a new brochure that they are now giving out to customers at the service reception area. Nice to see there is a picture of a Phaeton on the front of it.
I get the impression that VW is promoting the use of oil that meets the 502 00 specification in VW's that have gasoline engines.
Michael
*Oil Brochure - Cover*








*Oil Brochure - Body Text*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here's some additional documentation about what oil to use - it is the service interval schedule for the 2004 North American Phaeton. It can be downloaded from Bentley Publishers, for convenience, I have attached it below.

This document supports the use of several different VW oil specifications, 502 00 included.
Michael


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## jtmgli (Oct 18, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Now i don't drive a Phaeton, how ever take a look at this http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1838862average $'s for a 40K service on a Jetta or Golf is in the $400 range. When we took our Jetta to the dealer for the 20K service (10K between Oil changes) they charged us approx $220 and didn't even use the correct oil (10-30 should have been 5-40), Jetta has never been back to the dealer. I bought a Filter today from the dealer, 2-4qt jugs of Shell Rotilla (sp?) 5-40 oil from Walmart and an Air filter. Total cost less then $100, Next Oil change will be less, as I will only need one 4qt jug of Oil


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (jtmgli)*

Hello Jon:
Sorry to hear you have had a bad experience with your dealer. I have owned Golfs and Jettas for over 20 years, before I bought my Phaeton, and have never encountered any difficulties or pricing problems getting the oil changed at my dealer. The average cost of an oil change has been, I think, about USD $50 to $60. Sometimes there are additional scheduled items that need to be performed on a calender basis, such as changing brake fluid - this will, of course, increase the cost of the scheduled service.
Perhaps ask around in the regional forum (Florida forum) for recommendations from other VW owners who are happy with their dealerships. For every person who has a horror story to tell about any given dealership, there is someone else who has a good story to tell. I guess you just have to shop around a bit, and find a dealer you trust and feel comfortable with.
Michael


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## jtmgli (Oct 18, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hay Michael-
Unfortuantly my Experience isn't Unusual, and i'm in no way wanting to bash any of the Dealerships, there is plunty of that already going on here in Vortex. Like i assume with the Phaeton the oil only needs changed every 10k in the jetta. The dealerships, along with the oil change, will rotate the tires check the breaks check the filters etc. etc. and at a shop rate of $65-75 hr this adds up to a lot of $'s. When I take care of it myself not only does it save on the $'s it also gets me out of the house and i get to feal like i accomplished somthing productive over the weekend, and I know it was done right.
I'm assuming that once the free service runs out on the Phaeton, the average owner will take the car in for service as stated in the owners manual, and looking at the manual for the most part it looks just like an oil change and maby some charges for Air/Cabin filters if needed. However the time checking out the other items adds up. 
Someone had mentioned that they "could envision $100 for the W12, but it would be a stretch for the V8". Just wanting to give every one a heads up that if you take it in and don't specify that you want an oil change ONLY, that i can envision the total cost being much more then $100
Jon



_Modified by jtmgli at 12:18 AM 5-1-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (jtmgli)*

Here's a photo I took of an oil display at my Swiss dealer. Because all the VW's here in Europe are on the long-life (on condition) oil change program, and because over half the cars sold by VW are diesel, the oil shown may not be the stuff needed for the North American VW's. But, it is interesting to note how well VW is explaining what the different oil specifications mean, and what product owners should use in their cars.
The prices (USD in the red type that I added) are quite high compared to North America. This is consistent with vehicle prices (well-loaded W12 Phaeton = USD $160,000, well loaded Golf or Jetta, USD $45,000) and prices for shop labour (about USD $110 an hour for a skilled technician at a VW dealer).
Michael
*VW Oil Merchandising in Europe*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

A while ago, I posted scanned images of a brochure that my VW dealer gave me, explaining what kind of oil to use in various VW products in North America. Those scans are a few posts above in this thread.

I have since obtained a copy of this brochure in electronic format (it is an Adobe Acrobat PDF), and I have attached the brochure to this post. You can click on it to open it, or right-click on it and select "save target as" if you want to save it to your computer's hard disk.

Note that this information applies to North American Region VW products only. VW's sold in other areas of the world use a special 'long-life' oil that is not changed at fixed calender or mileage intervals.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Correct me if I'm wrong, however I believe all European oils used today are of the synthetic variety. 
If you're going to follow the 5k, 10k, 20k, 30k, etc...sequence (or 6 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, etc.) I would *highly* recommend the use of nothing less than a full synthetic oil. As diesel owners have realized, with the launch of the pumpdiesel, 505.01 oil is required at every change. Additionally, the 2005 Passat equipped with the 1.8 litre turbo engine requires the use of a synthetic now. Failure to do so = no warranty. If you want to do it yourself, at least make sure you're getting the right oil.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

Hi Chris:
Honestly, I don't know much about oil - the only time I ever lift the hood on my Phaeton is when the 'Low Washer Fluid' warning message appears. Just from looking at the prices of the oil at the VW dealers in Europe, I would guess that it is synthetic. It probably has gold or platinum flakes in it too, to get the price that high.
But - to avoid confusion, it must be stressed that the VWs in Europe follow a totally different oil change schedule. The car itself decides when the oil should be changed, based on engine loading, thermal cycles, stuff like that. The interval between oil changes can be as long as 24 months. The oil specification that is used in North American Region (NAR) Phaetons is totally different than the oil specification used in European Phaetons.
I think the key issue for VW owners anywhere in the world is to make sure that the oil used in the vehicle meets the VW specification set out for that vehicle - for example, in the case of NAR Phaetons, VW specifies (in the brochure) that we must use oil that meets the VW *502 00* specification. Although the brochure does not mention it, the NAR Phaeton owner manual states that oil that meets the VW *500 00* or *505 01* standard is also acceptable in NAR Phaetons. I don't know what the difference is between the VW 500 00 spec and the other two specs. I believe that the 505 01 specification is the spec for VW diesel engines.
I am pretty sure (not 100%, but about 99%) that the oil shown in the photo of the oil display at my Swiss VW dealer - the 503 01 and 506 01 oil - is 'long life' oil that meets the two VW specifications for the European cars that schedule their own oil changes 'on condition'. I don't think that any benefit would be gained from using this oil in our NAR Phaetons, which are on scheduled, short life (meaning, 'hard time' or 'hard mileage') service intervals. In other words, I don't think the engine would appreciate the nice gesture, and I doubt if the huge incremental cost of the oil (about $300 in oil alone for a W12 oil change) would be returned in the form of better fuel mileage or reduced oil use.
The way I make sure that I always get the right oil is to take my VWs back to my VW dealer for all the required service. That's especially easy to do with the Phaeton, because the oil changes are free. But, I did it for 20+ years with all my Golfs and Jettas as well, and never had any problems.
It is quite interesting to observe that if you go into a regular gas station in Europe, the different brands of oil will be very clearly marked to indicate that they meet the specifications of the various car companies. Below are scans I made from the brochure at an Aral service station - this brochure listed all the flavours that they sold. Note the VW oil specification right on the label of the bottle.
Michael
*Retail Labeling of Oil sold at Service Stations in Europe*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Attached is a more up-to-date maintenance schedule for the Phaeton engine. It is a 4 page document, in Adobe Acrobat format. This document covers all VW products, the V8 Phaeton is listed on one page, and the W12 on another page.
Michael

*Edit February 2011 -*_ I replaced the original document (about half a dozen posts higher up) with the newer document that this later post refers to, so, if you have downloaded the first document in this discussion, you have the most recent version. Michael_


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Since the oil change thread appeared... I thought I would share a recent oil change experience... 
I recently took the V8 in for an oil change - at approx. 15,000 miles... (I feel more comfortable doing an oil change every 5k).
I knew I would be charged for the oil change... I took it into a VW dealer that was closer to my home - I figured it was only an oil change... not a big deal... and their scheduling fit better with my availability... The dealer I normally go to is across town... Well... I expected the oil change to cost in the neighborhood of $100 - $125 USD. They charged me $205.00.... I questioned their service department (he said he was the manager - but I think he may have been at most 23 years old) - I have taken in other similar vehicles (foreign, lots of oil - Porsche 911, Audi A6) and have paid nowhere near that price... I asked if there was something else they did besides the oil change... I didn't expect such a high charge... I was told that they gave me a "deal" - it took the service tech longer than what they charged me and they should have been charging me more like $300.00....
I called 2 other VW dealers in town... they quoted me prices of $90.00 and $110.00. I don't think I will be going back to Boucher VW in the furture for oil changes... I don't need a technician learning how to do an oil change on my vehicle.
Douglas


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (copernicus0001)*

Wow, that doesn't sound good at all.
There is a new tool at VW dealerships now - it is sort of like a large shop vacuum. It consists of a flexible tube that the technician stuffs down the oil dipstick holder. This then sucks all the old oil out of the car, avoiding the need to take the big underbelly pan off the car.
I can't imagine how an oil dipstick hole on a Phaeton is any different from an oil dipstick hole on any other car...
Michael


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## dtwphaeton (Sep 7, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

One other thing to which we should pay attention. While I don't know the technical significance of the VW specification numbers, I have been told that it is very important to adhere to them, and never to mix specification numbers. I was maybe overly sensitized to this with the car I traded for my first Phaeton, an Audi RS 6. (Another story.) That car required specification number 505 01, and came with a hang tag on the mirror and a warning in the manual against ever using any other specification oil. According to the warnings, even a top off with another oil could cause serious engine damage. I have not seen any similar warning with the Phaeton, even the W12, but like Michael I have made it a practice to let the dealer do all the oil changes.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (copernicus0001)*

I'm confused (a condition I've gotten used to). I thought that oil changes were free for the first 50k miles or 4 years Isn't the oil change combined with other maintenance? Did you go to a non-Phaeton dealer to have it done?
Even so, I would expect VW to reimburse you anyway. Have you contacted the customer care center?


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: (car_guy)*

Regular scheduled maintenance is covered, including oil changes. The maintenance schedule recommends oil changes at 5k, 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k, etc....
I prefer a schedule of every 5k.... so I will need to pay for those at 15k, 25k, etc...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_ ...I thought that oil changes were free for the first 50k miles or 4 years...

They are, at least, in North America anyway. In other markets the warranty and service period is shorter. I think the pricing issue came up because some owners prefer to change the oil more frequently that the 'once every 10K miles' specified by VW. If you want to change the oil every 5K miles, then you will be expected to pay for the additional (out of schedule) changes.
I long ago gave up on tracking all this stuff, because I drive my cars so little (about 8,000 miles a year). I just take it to the VW dealer in the spring and fall to get the winter tires installed and removed, and while they are doing that, they check the service requirements and do whatever else is necessary. Usually I wind up getting oil changed once a year because it time-expires, rather than hitting the mileage limit.
Michael


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor*

Hi, I just changed 6 quarts of oil in my new (used) Phaeton using my oil extractor. It's 10F outside and I didn't get a drop on anything during the entire 15 minute procedure. For those who are wondering <grin>, I used an approved oil, Mobil1 0W-40 .. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
I put 25K or so miles annually on my car and I like to change the oil every 5K miles instead of every 10K as recommended. This technique doesn't involve a filter change, just as much oil as can be sucked from the dipstick tube.
I hadn't seen this mentioned on this forum so I thought maybe somebody might be interested.
There are many extractors on the market, I happen to have this one:
http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=10122


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor (pretendcto)*

Hi Paul:
Using an oil extractor is a great idea - in fact, the Phaeton Service Manual recommends that the VW dealers also use an oil extractor, and VW makes available a specialty tool called a VAG 1782 Oil Extractor. I have seen the technicians at my dealership use this tool on my Phaeton, it gets the job done quickly and easily, and eliminates the risk of spills or burns resulting from draining the oil out of the hole in the bottom of the engine.
Apropos of oil quality, we have a PDF file here on the forum available for download - this documents which motor oils meet the VW standards for use in the Phaetons. As far as I can tell, the specification is the same for both the V8 and the W12. The oil specification for the European Phaetons is different, because they are on the long-life ('on-condition') oil change program. I am glad we are not on that program in NAR, because the long life oil costs about $20 a liter. Here's the link to the oil specifications: Oil Specifications - what type of oil should I use in a Phaeton? Note that there are three different PDF's on that thread for download - two are maintenance schedules, and one is the oil specification document.
Michael
*Phaeton Service Manual - oil change procedures*









*NOTE ADDED IN 2012:* The oil extractor must not be used on W12 engines! The VW Service Manual clearly states that oil must be *DRAINED *from the W12 engine, not suctioned out.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor (pretendcto)*

This is still a mental block for me, as well as others I'm sure. I agree that the 5K oil change makes sense. I'm shocked we're not talking 3K, but I've gotten over that. I too would like to change the oil at 5K, but the filter? Filter too. Old school, yes, but if VW says it's good to go for 10K then maybe, ok. Doesn't it boil down to, no pun intended, how you drive the car and how many months between oil changes? Looking at the warranty, isn't it 5K, 10K, 20K etc. or 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, etc.? I personally will only put about 5K to 7K a year on the car. So I think every 6 months would apply to me. If I were driving 10K every 6 months, one oil change doesn't seem like enough. Again mental block. Change the filter and a least you have peace of mind. And the warrenty will back you. 
Good idea. I'll look into this one.
Regards,
Brent


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor (W126C)*

Brent,
In all honesty, I'm pretty comfortable with the 5, 10, 20, 30, etc. (or 6 mo, 12mo, 24mo, 36mo, etc) providing you're using the appropriate oil.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor (chrisj428)*

I thought I was most likely wrong with the 18 months, but it still sounds good to me. I don't want to start the oil change debate here. It's just old habits die real hard. I've come a long way just going from 3K to 5K. I have the T-reg done every 5K. And I know _It's not your Daddy's old oil._








Regards,
Brent


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor (W126C)*

That's OK, Brent, I gotta confess, I get a prophy done every 3 months, even though the recommended schedule is annually...








As for the oil - hey, when the car tells me it is time to change it (via the display on the instrument cluster), I buy donuts and then head for the VW dealer.
Michael


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## martingie (Jan 11, 2005)

I don,t understand the 3 or 5 thousend oil change at all. Nobody in germany would do that. The oil change intervalls are up to 20000 thousend miles on BMW , Porsches, Mercedes. I had an old 91, 911 Porsche in germany the recomendet change was 12000 miles (20000 Kilometer) after very hard driven miles on the Autobahn with speed up to 180 mph and everage speed of 110 mph For 600 miles and more. The oil looked good (synthetic) as new after 12000 miles. There are 16 liter in a 911. So I don't think there is a hint of a need to change at 3 or 5 even 10. I do it because its free. I think the oil industrie punched that in the USA customers a long time ago, and people still beleave it. Every German car sold in the US has much longer intervalls in germany. I know my W8 had in germany 30000 km, here 5000 miles I don't know about the Phaeton, but I will find out and let you know.


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## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor (pretendcto)*

Obviously, it's not my intent to start another discussion of the pros & cons of more frequent oil changes. I believe there are many factors that determine this interval and, for me, one of them is the incredibly dusty roads in the area that I live. I slept better last night knowing that the oil is fresh for today's commute ..








PS - Once the weather is warmer, I'll send an oil sample to a lab so that I can determine the best interval for my car.
Thanks and have a great day!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil change between recommended intervals using an extractor (pretendcto)*

Oil change threads are the way forum regulars manage to work around the ban against discussing religion and politics in the forum.








I do realize you had no intent to bring up frequency - you just left the door open for the rest of us to do that.






















Michael


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## martingie (Jan 11, 2005)

I did realize that too. Sorry, I did't want to sound to harsch .but I always wanted to know why these short intervals here. Oil quality can,t be the problem. I think they can seale an engine for 100000 miles no matter where and how you drive and the oil and engine are still good., but sure feel free to change when ever.


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## faterikcartman (Dec 22, 2005)

I just bought a Porsche; first oil change at 20,000 miles.
Of note, however, they cast the engine with oil and coolant channels and do not grind or drill it so there's no little aluminum chips floating around from machining of the block.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (faterikcartman)*

Here's the maintenance schedule for model year 2005 Phaetons (the maintenance schedule for model year 2004 Phaetons is attached to a post on the first page of this thread).
I don't think there is any great difference between the two maintenance schedules, however, perhaps someone could compare the two carefully and report back to us if there are any interesting changes.
Michael


----------



## martingie (Jan 11, 2005)

Here the inspection intervalles in germany for Phaetons (any Phaeton): first oilchange after 30000km(ca18000miles) or one year what ever comes first.----- So much for 3000miles or 5000 here and sleepness nights for beeing to long.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (martingie)*

Ah, but keep in mind that the European Phaetons use a different oil, and are on a different service inspection schedule. You can't really compare NAR service schedules with ROW service schedules, because NAR schedules are based on hard times and hard distances, and ROW schedules are 'on condition', based on thermal cycles and total fuel consumption of the vehicle.
Having said that - I recognize the point you are trying to make about 3,000 or 5,000 service intervals.
Michael


----------



## martingie (Jan 11, 2005)

Does that mean the european oil is better? I want that than. Also nothing is harder than daily Autobahn conditions almost everybody is taking out the 155mh restrictions and driving it.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (martingie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *martingie* »_Does that mean the European oil is better? 

Not necessarily better, just designed for a different purpose. I think you would find it frustrating (and unnecessary) to pay $20 per liter for the long-life oil that is specified for use in the ROW Phaetons if you are changing it every year (or every 10,000 miles) as is called for in the NAR service schedule.
To follow the ROW service schedule (the on condition schedule), the Phaeton must be configured to support on-condition service. This is production code *QG1*. All North American Phaetons are configured as production code *QG2*, which implies no possibility of activating service interval prolongation (in other words, hard times and hard distances only).
There is more information about this on page 1 of this same thread.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Just a warning to everyone - my 32,000 km service (20,000 mile service) will be coming due soon. The last time I took this car in for an oil change, it took so much oil to refill it that the world price of crude jumped about $20 a barrel. So, fill up your gas tanks ahead of time...








Michael
*Service Due Message*


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

My V8 goes in for the 10,000 mile service on 3/14. The sched maint interval circular indicates the brake fluid should be changed at 2 years, regardless of mileage. Does that mean two years from in-service date or from when the car was manufactured?
I'm trying to get my ducks in a row before I go in. My local dealer will almost certainly screw it up and/or have no idea what to do. Hmmm, seems I'm not having a "glass half full" day ...
Dan


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (dt1963)*

Technically, two years from build date.
Actually, two years from in-service date.
There are very few of them out there where the dates are more than a few months apart.


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

On mine, the manufacture date is nearly a year earlier than in-service. I'll ask them to change the fluid and see what reaction I get.


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (dt1963)*

About my previous post: I don't understand what "in servcie" means exactly. The date the car goes to the dealer and is made available for sale? Or the date titled (or put in a demo fleet)?


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (dt1963)*

"In service" refers to the date the car was first put into use (either demo or titled).


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dt1963)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dt1963* »_On mine, the manufacture date is nearly a year earlier than in-service. I'll ask them to change the fluid and see what reaction I get.

Hi Daniel:
My guess is that you are talking about changing the brake fluid here. I also had a very large gap (over a year) between the build date of my Phaeton - Sept 2003 - and the in-service date, which was October of 04. Personally, I feel pretty comfortable using 'two years from in-service date' as the target for changing the brake fluid. 
The rationale behind changing the fluid every two years is that the fluid attracts and absorbs water. My take on things is that if the fluid is just sitting in the system and not circulating in any way - as would be the case with a vehicle that is not driven - it's going to be pretty difficult for the fluid to find any moisture to absorb. I think you are safe with two years from in-service, but that is just a personal opinion, not a thoroughly researched engineering opinion.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

Here's the authoritative word on brake fluid replacement from VW:


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Thanks for the info. I'll let you know what happens.
Dan


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (dt1963)*

10,000 mi svc update: my Phaeton went in this morning with the promise it would be ready by 2pm. Had to fight them for a loaner - although the Jetta they gave me is perfectly servicable, it's certainly no Phaeton - but planned ahead and took them hard copies of all the items requiring attention at this service. The service advisor just called to inform me they need to order parts. "Would you like them over-nighted so we can have the car ready for you tomorrow afternoon?" No, how 'bout you get them on the slow boat from Germany? That way I can make several trips to and fro your service department for the not-too-complicated OIL CHANGE. And what "parts"? The oil filter? Did I not make this appointment a week ago?
Sorry to vent but this part of the ownership experience is atrocious. Oh, and did I mention I called the Phaeton customer service line last week so they could do a pre-emptive strike? Lot of good that did me.
Thanks. I feel a bit better.








Dan


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (dt1963)*

Dan,
While I can totally empathize with your get the bums rush regarding service, especially since you had PCC's assistance when making your 10K svc appointment, I'm not sure that parts for the oil change are the issue. You even said as much yourself:

_Quote, originally posted by *dt1963* »_...but planned ahead and took them hard copies of *all the items requiring attention* at this service. The service advisor just called to inform me they need to order parts. "Would you like them over-nighted so we can have the car ready for you tomorrow afternoon?" No, how 'bout you get them on the slow boat from Germany? That way I can make several trips to and fro your service department for the not-too-complicated OIL CHANGE. And what "parts"? The oil filter? Did I not make this appointment a week ago? 

I'm not defending the dealership, they seem to have dropped the ball. While it is my understanding that loaner vehicle are at the dealers discretion, I was under the impression that parts were guaranteed overnight if in the US and with 72 hours if in Germany.
~PC


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

PC,
I would not be the least bit surprised if they present me with a shipping bill for having overnighted whatever parts they require. And while I did write "all the items requiring attention at this service" I just meant those bits to be performed in the routine 10K mile service. When I took it in for the 5K, I had to get the maintenance schedule out of my trunk to prove to the service advisor that the car was indeed due. Ugh!
Dan


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Me thinks a conversation with the Service Manager is the next step.


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Yes, indeed.
I'm not what anyone would call a hot-headed person but I'm finding it increasingly more difficult to not lose my patience with such incompetence. Seems I don't "suffer fools gladly", or whatever that quote is.
Thanks for the understanding ear.
Dan


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (dt1963)*

Don't apologize "Arrogance" which leads to not knowing what you don't know is the #1 cause of the worlds problems. Make it clear what you want, be reasonable and that is all you should do. 
Go to the service manager, and then if required to the sales manager let him know this is impacting future sales.
PCC might be of some help but I think they are slipping away.


----------



## GA Phaeton (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

My 04 is in for the 20k (albeit about 1800 miles early. Wanted to complete while I was in town) service. I dropped it off Monday with the promise to have it back Friday. Seems a tad long to me but this is Savannah, known affectionatly as Insanity by the Sea. 
Eddie, the Service Manager had my loaner, a bare bones Jetta ready. He has always gone above and beyond for me. Very nice guy. Will update the post when I take the Jetta back.
Service Manager just called with some news:
1.Needed a part for the rear ashtray to fix a rattle. Overnighted and will have part tomorrow. 
2. Asked what an oil change would cost out of warrenty? $110.00
3. I was also informed that should I care to order a new Phaeton, I'd better move quick. They could still accept an order till April 1st. Delivery would be 60 days. 
HB


_Modified by GA Phaeton at 5:18 PM 3-14-2006_


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Insanity by the Sea. 

Love it!


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dt1963)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dt1963* »_10,000 mi svc update: my Phaeton went in this morning with the promise it would be ready by 2pm...

Hi Dan:
Just food for thought here: I never rush my dealership whenever I take any car in for service. Generally, I like to drop the car off the night before, pick up a loaner, and I tell them to just 'call me when it's ready'. As far as I am concerned, that can either be the end of the next day, or, the end of the next week.
Another strategy I sometimes follow is to drop the car off at the dealership whenever I am about to make a 1 or 2 week trip out of town. I then arrange for the airport limo to pick me up at the dealership - this saves all the grief associated with loaner cars. It's cheaper to take a limo from the dealership to the airport and vice-versa than it is to park at the airport for more than a week.
My rationale is that I don't ever want to put pressure on the service technicians to get a job done in a hurry. If anything, I want them to feel that they have all the time they want to do the job carefully and well, and if they find something they don't like, to order the parts and fix it as they see fit. I benefit from this in two ways - first, my car is perfectly maintained, and second, I never have any stress or surprises. The dealership benefits too - if they know there is no urgency to get the car back to me, they can schedule it for attention on a 'slow day', and I would much rather have a tech working on my car when he has nothing else to do that day (or afternoon) than have the tech working on my car when he is pressed for time and there are 5 more cars to look after before closing time.
For what it's worth.
Michael


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Thanks for your advice. Everyone's advice! I never rush them and do my level best to not let my past experiences with this same service department color current service, however difficult that may be (two MBs, an Audi, our BMW and the Phaeton and they have NEVER performed any kind of service/maint properly on the first visit).
I'm definitely taking the high road but do plan to express my concerns after they complete the work.
Best,
Dan


----------



## GA Phaeton (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: (GA Phaeton)*

Picked up my car after it's 20k service. 
1. car was finsihed a day earlier than promised.
2. all the work competed.
3. car was detailed.
4. and was set to European suspension height.








My hats off to the service team of Vaden Volkswagen in Savannah, GA.


----------



## dt1963 (Nov 23, 2004)

*Re: (GA Phaeton)*

Surely wish I could sing the praises of my servicing dealer. Unfortunately, my car is back in the shop this afternoon, having been retrieved from the 10K service just last night. They didn't rotate the wheels/tires, although they said they did.
I very calmly talked w/ the svc manager this time. We'll see what happens.
Dan


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (dt1963)*

VW has released a TB (technical bulletin) that lists quite a few brands of oil that meet the VW specifications for use in VW engines. I have attached the TB to the bottom of this post.
Those of us who take our Phaeton to a VW dealer for service don't really have to worry about what oil gets put in it - the VW dealers are obliged to use oil that meets VW technical standards, and they would get shot and pissed on by VW if they did not. VW audits the dealerships on a regular basis to make sure that stuff like this is being done right.
However - if your Phaeton is out of warranty and you choose to have the oil changed by an independent facility, then you might want to download this PDF document and refer to it. The newer VW engines such as the V8 and W12 really do require oil that meets the VW specs. When these new generation engines first came out a few years ago, some owners didn't follow the instructions and used inappropriate oil - this resulted in very expensive engine failures after about 3 or 4 years. Ask your service advisor about Passat engines...








Note that this document only applies to North American specification vehicles that are on the fixed interval oil change routine (every 12 months or 10,000 miles, whichever comes first). Phaetons in the rest of the world are most likely on the Flexible Service Interval, which requires a different specification of oil.
It is really, really critical that you check the owner manual and make sure that you use the correct specification of oil. There are photos of the owner manual, and additional information about VW oil specifications on the first page of this thread.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

For the record, here is a scan of the page that is in the front of the Owner Manual. This should be your primary reference document to determine when to carry out preventative maintenance (scheduled service intervals). This page also defines, _a priori, _what VW will pay for as part of the 'scheduled maintenance package' that was included with NAR Phaetons (first 4 years or 50,000 miles).
Michael
*Phaeton Service Schedule*
_(for NAR Phaetons on Fixed Interval Service - not for ROW Phaetons!)_


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Oil Change*

Tried to post this in the oil change section but could not so sorry about a new ? Thread.
I was just quoted $100 for a V8 oild change uning Castrol Syntex and a filter. When I inquired about Mobil 1, no they will not use it AND they told me that if used it would void my warranty (Hard to believe)


----------



## BRNGIT4 (Sep 17, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_Tried to post this in the oil change section but could not so sorry about a new ? Thread.
I was just quoted $100 for a V8 oild change uning Castrol Syntex and a filter. When I inquired about Mobil 1, no they will not use it AND they told me that if used it would void my warranty (Hard to believe)









100 is about right
Mobil 1 http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif most Mobil 1 products do in fact void your warranty
use this chart for refrence
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/5...4.pdf
502 is the VW oil spec you need
Check out this post for more info
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1851510
me personally I use and recomend Elf Oil
which is available at PAP Parts (Vortex Advertiser)
or go directly to there supplier
http://www.northsideimports.com


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_When I inquired about Mobil 1, no they will not use it AND they told me that if used it would void my warranty (Hard to believe)

Two things, Don:
(1) Mobil 1 doesn't meet VW's spec. So it would void the warranty not because of what it is, but because of what it isn't.
(2) I seem to remember hearing recently most Mobil 1 products are now formulated with a base that is a tier lower than was used previously, calling into question the "synthetic-ness" of the product.


----------



## pretendcto (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_..
(1) Mobil 1 doesn't meet VW's spec. So it would void the warranty not because of what it is, but because of what it isn't.


Interesting, I thought the Phaeton required 502.00 and a 5w-40 or a 0w-40 viscosity. Additionally, I believed that Mobil 1 0w-40 'European Car' formula fit the application.
Mobil 1 0W-40


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change (pretendcto)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pretendcto* »_Interesting, I thought the Phaeton required 502.00 and a 5w-40 or a 0w-40 viscosity. Additionally, I believed that Mobil 1 0w-40 'European Car' formula fit the application.
Mobil 1 0W-40 

Not all Mobil 1s are created the same (this isn't exclusive to Mobil 1, but any motor oil). You need to check the container. If it says 502.00 on the bottle, it's good. But, just because it's Mobil 1 doesn't necessarily mean it meets that standard.


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Well spent 2 hours at the dealer getting the oil changed. During the time I was there 1, one, 1, one, customer was in the showroom. Wow Even the service arena was empty. I just can't understand what these guys can't figure out about advertising. 
Anyway a very nice time talking with the service Advisor, Always a nice guy, and a newer but well informed salesman while I saw sitting in a Passat.
They do have a W12 that just came in off lease in the back lot for sale.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change (chrisj428)*

Photos re-hosted.
Michael


----------



## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*VW Service Schedules*

Hello -
I know that there are Phaeton Service Circular PDF's in the TOC but I thought I'd post this link anyway. VW posts their service schedules (at least for NAR) on their website at: http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar....html Select year and model and away you go.
Enjoy,
~Nate


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*DIY W12 Oil Change, anyone ever try this?*

Woo Hooo…. it’s been almost exactly one year since my Phaeton has been to the dealership for service!









Last free service performed was the 30K service even though it only had 28K on the clock at the time. Now that it’s at 35K and on my nickel, I’m thinking I might as well do the oil change myself. One for the satisfaction of accomplishing something I’ve never tried before and two so I don’t have to hassle with the drop off/pick up.
I’ve been reading around here and don’t see much information relating to anyone doing this themselves. If you have, please chime in with any tips or tricks. For sure I’m going to extract the oil out the dip stick since I have access to one of those tools (these are a must have for inboard boat motors). 
I’m trying to decipher all the discussion relating to oil and the 502 standard versus off the shelf Mobile 1. I’ll need to source a filter along with a few other goodies, so any recommendations on online vendors would also be appreciated.
I’ll take lots of pics and write up a DIY guide if successful.


----------



## Jagermeister83 (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: (dt1963)*

Can someone tell me the part # for the oil filter housing?


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Jagermeister83)*

For which engine?


----------



## Jagermeister83 (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

The W12....I remember somebody saying that you can use a W12 oil filter/housing on a VR6 to add another qt or so of oil to keep temps down. Do you find truth in that?


----------



## aswede (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Went through my cars specifications and found this enabled option
QG1	with service interval prolongation (on condition) 
What does it mean? I bought it in Germany in september this year. 
Has run 69000km and is scheduled for next service in 2011 as stated on sticker on drivers door.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (aswede)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aswede* »_QG1 - with service interval prolongation (on condition) 
What does it mean? 

It means that the car will notify you (via a message in the display between the speedometer and the tachometer) when it next requires an oil change.
The car will monitor km driven, time since last oil change, and nature of the duty cycles (city/highway, etc.) and then give you either 3,000 km or 1 month advance notice so you can make an appointment to get the oil changed.
Michael


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*DIY W12 Oil Change*

I finally got around to changing the oil in my W12 myself… totally cost was around $75. I used Mobile 1 0w-40 that was on sale the day after Thanksgiving at Pep Boys for $4/quart. The filter was ordered online through Rock Auto. Even though it was slightly longer than one year, I only had 7500 miles since the last change… so I was a litte over due. 
I used an oil extractor to suck it out the dipstick and carefully monitored how much was removed to make sure I got all (or most of it). The biggest challenge was getting the car jack up and on a stand. Removing the fender liner wasn’t that tough, just dirty. I did have to lower the car back down in order to get as much oil out as possible.
Tips if trying this yourself (many of these I learned the old fashion way): 
Get a good car wash including underbody (that would have been nice)
Warm up the engine first (not hot, just warm… extractor doesn’t like cold oil)
Engage jack up mode (oh yeah… that thing)
Jack car properly (this could be a thread by itself, I’m not going into detail due to liability)
Use an oil extractor (neighbor has one for changing boat oil, but I here they are around $100)
Lay down cardboard and use oil catcher for filter (I learned this trick a long time ago)
Wear Mechanic gloves (thanks Santa)
Note which screws are used and which aren’t (there is TBS on this)
When reattaching the fender liner, start with the fasteners by the belly pan first (otherwise, do over)
This job took me a little over 2 hours including setup and cleanup. I was a little slow and it was well below freezing outside. I’m sure the next time I could cut this down by half since I know what I’m up against now. Following are a few pictures I took along the way.
























































































































Hey, is that an antifreeze drip I see!


----------



## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (Auzivision)*

Kurt:
Great writeup and pics. I'll lend you my V8 so you can do the same for those of us on the other side of the tracks.








I've have always done my own oil changes since I was 16 years old. I'm now 65 and have had the dealer do my Touareg V8 and Phaeton V8. My main reason for allowing them to do it is that both cars are under CPO and I want to make sure there is an "official VW" record that it has been done on schedule. I realize that if you keep oil & filter receipts and a log of DIY maintenance it should suffice but I'm paranoid of an engine failure that they refuse to cover, claiming that I have done something wrong - even if I haven't. I also hope the business I provide my dealer and mechanic is appreciated and provides some goodwill over my ownership. Maybe I'm dreaming.








However, I actually miss being under the car and the opportunity it provides to inspect for fluid leaks and other impending problems. 
Remember doing your own oil changes is the first prerequisite for being a true car nut.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (Auzivision)*

Kurt, where did you position the jack stand in the end, or did you just go with two trolley jacks? I tried a stand along the inside of the rail right where the VW jack goes, which worked, but left very slight indentations (which it was bound to do). In the end, I had to use ramps (I was changing the anti-roll bar link) to get a bit more altitude, my trolley jack wouldn't lift high enough to get the jack stand on the next notch. I used a block of wood on top of the trolley jack and lifted it on what I think is the official lift point, just inboard of the jacking point, where the rectangular pad is with the hole in the middle. I've now got a hockey puck ready for the other side when I do it, and if I used the jack stand again I think I'd want a narrow strip of steel or something to protect the sill.


----------



## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (Jxander)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jxander* »_Remember doing your own oil changes is the first prerequisite for being a true car nut. 

I know I'm certifiably car crazy and do this kind of stuff for fun. When or if it becomes work, then I’ll quit and go back to a hired mechanic. However, I find something satisfying about taking on new projects, learning along the way, and finishing with success. 
This weekend I’m going to rebuild the steering and front end on my truck after watching an instructional video on you tube. This includes the pitman arm, idler arm, inner & outer tie rod ends, and upper & lower ball joints. It’s all basically just a bunch of nuts and bolts and cleaver use of force… not rocket science.
I’m hoping as these car age and end up in hands of the DIY crowd, we’ll see more posting like this.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (Auzivision)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Auzivision* »_
However, I find something satisfying about taking on new projects, learning along the way, and finishing with success. 


Absolutely! But have you ever tried explaining that concept to your better half???


----------



## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (invisiblewave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *invisiblewave* »_Kurt, where did you position the jack stand in the end, or did you just go with two trolley jacks? I tried a stand along the inside of the rail right where the VW jack goes, which worked, but left very slight indentations (which it was bound to do). In the end, I had to use ramps (I was changing the anti-roll bar link) to get a bit more altitude, my trolley jack wouldn't lift high enough to get the jack stand on the next notch. I used a block of wood on top of the trolley jack and lifted it on what I think is the official lift point, just inboard of the jacking point, where the rectangular pad is with the hole in the middle. I've now got a hockey puck ready for the other side when I do it, and if I used the jack stand again I think I'd want a narrow strip of steel or something to protect the sill.

You bring up a good point! 
I used the car jack 'ridge' for the jack stand and ended up with the same indentions. I wasn't sure if that inboard rectangular pad was structural, so I used a board along the ridge just aft the official spot for lifting. 
The following picture helps explain. I didn’t include this initially because I didn’t think it was proper. So lets just say, this is what you DON’T want to do:









When I do it all over, I'll probably just keep most of the weight on the floor jack and only place the stand in for safety with just enough weight to hold it’s place. It's not like you really have to get under the car to remove the liner or filter. Also, you do need to lower the car back to level to get all the oil out.

_Modified by Auzivision at 1:30 PM 1-14-2010_


_Modified by Auzivision at 1:32 PM 1-14-2010_


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (Auzivision)*

Interesting. That "ridge" looks a bit different than it does on my V8. My scissor jack fits over a very thin "ridge", more like two pieces of thin panel metal crimped together, and puts the lifting force on the rail on either side, so I concluded that I could place the jack stand just inboard of that ridge.
I used what I think is the "lifting pad" area after careful study of various pictures I found here and in the manual (the area directly inboard of the stand in your picture). It seemed to work fine with a block of wood, and I'm fairly confident it'll be ok with a hockey puck as well. The other difficulty I had was positioning the trolley jack to lift at the pad in such a way that I could then get the jack stand in position.
Your trolley jack is identical to mine, btw!


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (invisiblewave)*

Hey Guys -
When researching snow tires a couple of weeks ago I came across this post from Michael on lifting the Phaeton. Basically, it give precautions for lifting. 
Here's a link to the thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2274837 
And here's the image that you guys reminded me of:









Best Regards,
Nate


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (Auzivision)*

Really nice writeup and illustrated post Kurt, thanks a lot for posting it.
For those of you who have W12 vehicles - while you have that fender liner out to let you get access to the oil filter, have a look at it and make sure that this mandatory service bulletin has been carried out on the fender liner:
TB: 00-06-02 and 37-07-08 - W12 (only!) Underbody Cover Attachment Modification.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (invisiblewave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *invisiblewave* »_I used what I think is the "lifting pad" area after careful study of various pictures I found here and in the manual...

Here's a picture of the lifting pad (and lifting pad placement location) that I took in the rework facility in the basement of the Transparent Factory in Dresden. If a Phaeton is sent back to the factory for investigation, repair, or overhaul, it goes to this facility.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (PanEuropean)*

And, here is a picture showing the design lifting points of the car. When the car is being moved around within the factory, the hoist attaches to these lifting points. They are holes in the underbody that are subsequently plugged - however, by observing the hole location, you can determine where there is sufficient structural strength in the floor pan to lift up the vehicle.
Michael


*PS:* Please do not forget to put a soft pad on the ground before you turn the car upside down, lest you scratch the glass on the sunroof.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (ruddyone)*

Thanks to both of you for those shots. That's exactly where I lifted with the trolley jack. The problem is that without very clear information it's hard to believe that those are the lift points, when you eyeball them they just don't look very strong, they look hollow and have a big hole in the centre. I used a piece of wood to spread the load a bit, but given the weight I was lifting I was far from sure that the wood wouldn't fail. The other strange thing is how low the sill is to the ground, with the suspension in jacking mode I had to wind the jack all the way down to get it under. There really isn't much more clearance than there is on my 944.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (invisiblewave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *invisiblewave* »_... when you eyeball them they just don't look very strong, they look hollow and have a big hole in the centre...

Guess what the hole is used for?









*Lifting Points*


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (PanEuropean)*

Yes, it was a photo like that which gave me the confidence to pump up the jack. Very carefully.


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (invisiblewave)*

Ironically, I’ve instinctively used these points to lift pad areas in the past when changing tires. It wasn’t until I added a jack stand to the equation that I ran into concern. I needed the ability to lift from one point and set the weight down on another. 
I initially used a low profile floor jack at the normal car jack point (sill/ridge). Once I got the car up, I couldn’t get a stand where I wanted it (the pad area). Then I grabbed a bigger floor jack and placed it just aft using a board on the ridge. I pulled the first jack and examined the lift pad area. At that time, I decided it looked to weak to use with the jack stand so I used the ridge instead and lowered the car onto it.
In hind sight, I should have use a board or block of rubber on the jack stand as to not damage the ridge or pad area. The indents in the picture are exaggerated by all that black rubbery stuff, the actual metal was not deformed that much.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (Auzivision)*

That's the same problem I had, once I'd jacked it using the pad area, the only place to put the stand was along the rail. The only other solution I could think of was to lift it with the supplied scissor jack and then place the stand under the pad area, but then there's the problem of spreading the load from the relatively small area of the top of the stand. Why is jacking always the most complicated part of any given job???


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Guess what the hole is used for?









Hummm.... Without the picture this statement could be misconstrued......
But, indeed, that is an awesome picture! And I wonder how they rested the car upside down to take the other one you posted?








I have a couple of business trips to Europe this year and I'm trying to squeeze in a trip to Dresden. 
Nate



_Modified by ruddyone at 10:30 AM 1-15-2010_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (ruddyone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ruddyone* »_But, indeed, that is an awesome picture! And I wonder how *they *rested the car upside down to take the other one you posted?









Whaddya mean, _'they'_? I went outside and flipped my car over at 3:00 AM this morning, just to take that picture for Kurt.








Michael


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## aubergine2004 (Oct 2, 2009)

*Re: DIY W12 Oil Change (PanEuropean)*

Do the V8's also require jacking to change the filter?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*V10 oil specs*

I'm trying to figure out the previous owner's service history on my V10, to decide what's next due and when. Some of the services have the LongLife oil box ticked and some don't.

Regarding the oil specs, I see my booklet 3.1 says that the LongLife oil must be 506.01 and the Interval oil spec is also 506.01 :screwy:

Does this mean that for V10 (only) you must specify the same oil in either case, then just choose which regime to follow, programming the service-due warning to match your choice? I'm puzzled...

Oil suppliers seem to quote that V10 must use 506.01 (and not 507.00, normally required for vehicles with DPF) although for other engines that could also use 506.01 for LongLife you could choose 505.01 for Interval service. Simple.

Out of interest, how can I tell if my Phaeton has DPFs? I assume it does.


Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> I'm trying to figure out the previous owner's service history on my V10, to decide what's next due and when. Some of the services have the LongLife oil box ticked and some don't.
> 
> Regarding the oil specs, I see my booklet 3.1 says that the LongLife oil must be 506.01 and the Interval oil spec is also 506.01 :screwy:
> 
> ...


Chris,

Castrol EDGE TURBO DIESEL is the ONLY oil recommended for the V10 (to the best of my knowledge) Forunately not too expensive if you shop around in advance! 507 spec has a problem with "shear" which I thought was to do with sheep :laugh: 
As an aside I've always used the Castrol and have NEVER had ant engine component issues at over 150k miles.

Stu


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## jenvee828 (Jun 25, 2011)

Any chance the previous owner had service done at VW? I went the other day to the local dealer and asked if they could kindly print me out the records because I was also curious about when service was done (oil, brake fluid, and the CARFAX said something about "engine replaced" around 20k miles?). Turns out the engine was just removed and reinstalled during a coolant system repair. 
Anyway, it's an easy thing to request to solve mysteries such as these.


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

> Out of interest, how can I tell if my Phaeton has DPFs? I assume it does


Phaeton V10TDI never got the DPF, the engine was discontinued instead. Touareg has the V10+DPF combo.

Jouko


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks for the info guys - first I'll get the dealer printout to verify the receipts etc, although all looks in order.

No DPFs on the V10 - does that mean I can run on old cooking oil??! 

Also, thanks for the good experience with Castrol oils. Their web site says that the Castrol Turbo product is good for VWs on Interval servicing under 505.01, then it goes on:

"EDGE 5W-30 is suitable for all ... VW cars on variable servicing with the exception of R5 and V10 TDi engines (Touareg) ... without ... diesel particulate filters – these must use the 506.01 specification oil (SLX Longlife II) – contact your VW dealer for this product."

So Castrol Edge is the new retail product, but Edge is the wrong spec for V10, and the right spec is Castrol SLX L II, which has been replaced by Edge, except at VW dealers.

Why isn't this stuff simple?


Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Thanks for the info guys - first I'll get the dealer printout to verify the receipts etc, although all looks in order.
> 
> No DPFs on the V10 - does that mean I can run on old cooking oil??!
> 
> ...


Chris,

it is EDGE _*TURBO DIESEL*_ not EDGE. And NO do NOT use even 10% bio diesel, I can't find the link, but I've seen what it does to the injectors and you DO NOT want to repeat the poor guys mistake, I assure you!

Stu


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Chris,

Sorry I should have added 0w-30.

Stu


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

*I think this is now correct*

Thanks, I am nearly there... Castrol and the spec booklet between them say this:

-- 506.01 (Castrol SLX Longlife II) is required use in Phaeton non-DPF V10 TDi engines on either Variable or Interval servicing, but it's withdrawn from retail

-- 505.01 (Castrol EDGE Turbo Diesel 5W-40) can be used in non-V10 TDi cars on Interval servicing, except...

-- except that 507.00 (Castrol EDGE 5W-30) must be used if the non-V10 car has DPF or uses Variable servicing

So my V10, which specifies 506.01 for both Interval and Variable servicing, has to use Castrol SLX Longlife II, which is now only available from VW dealers.

That was tedious. Maybe I'll just specify Fuchs or Gulf 506.01 from Opie and be done with it!


Chris


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi Chris,

just been doing some checking and it would appear that Castrol have dropped the Turbo Edge 0W-30! Bummer, I guess I'll be joining you at Opie!!! Well spotted, I had noticed my local halfords had a space for a while (presumably as I bought all their previous stock)!

Stu


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

This would have been a good place to insert the "how to clear the *SERVICE NOW* code on the MFI" with the Vag-Com.
Working on a friends V8 and I can't remember how to do the reset. 
Still searching through old post, I know it's in there somewhere.
Regards,
Brent

Found it: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1804719
I've be away too long. Miss you guys.


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## RUDDY1965 (Sep 16, 2008)

*Service requirements*

Am I the only person who finds the service manual confusing?

It is 12 months since my last service and I am wondering if I need another one now and if so, which one.

At my last service I asked for a 'long life' service. The invoice shows 5w30 LLT bulk oil, qty:90. Is this correct?

Hmmm, it also shows LL3 Castrol LL3 topup at £15.32 plus VAt. I never got given this. May have to bring it up.

After 10,000 miles the car came up saying it needed another servive. I assumed they had set the wrong service interval (just the kind of VW mistake we have all gotten used to and which will ultimately stop Phaeton 2nd purchases). They reset it for me. I bet they just set it for another long-life interval which was probably another 20,000 miles.

So, I have to judge myself whether I should service now or not. I've only done 13,000 miles since last service.

1st service after 12 months was a '1st longlife service' on 18,579 miles after 10 months
2nd service was '2nd variable service' on 35.120 miles after 12 months.
3rd service was '3rd variable service' after 49,616 miles after another 12 months.

As I have taken out a (very expensive) VW extended warranty I probably have to go to VW, plus I don't know of anybody in NW england who looks after Phaetons.

Cheers for reading

Ian


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## arthurgodsake (Nov 26, 2010)

You should avail yourself of the two year servicing and MOT deal being offered by VW. On their website look under offers on the home page. It's a no brainer for Phaeton Owners. If you have trouble finding a dealer who'll do it, speak to the Luxury Car team and they'll find you one. It costs 349 and you get two services and 2 mot's. You have to have a car under eight years old or 80k mileage. I recently sneaked under the wire with this and had it done by Ridgeway in Reading who are excellent and their customer service is very good too. I know this is too far for you but I am sure you'll find a dealer who'll oblige.
Tim


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## gilessav (Sep 7, 2011)

I saw this at my local VW in Aylesbury when having the Passat serviced but thought that it was limited to upto and including 2L cars? 

You obviosuly enquired and they gave you the same prioce for a Phaeton? As you say a no brainer i would suspect.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Okay, going right back to basics...

When they leave the factory, all Phaetons in the UK are set to the "Long Life" service setting by default (look for the code "QG1" on the build sticker). What this means is that the dash control module keeps an eye on the engine temperature, RPM, fuel consumption and distance travelled and then calculates when it thinks you next need a service. Essentially, if you do lots of short journeys in stop-start traffic you'll get a service reminder earlier than if you do exclusively motorway miles. This is up to a maximum of 2 years or 31k miles at which point the service indicator will come on regardless.

In your case, it looks like your Phaeton has always been on a variable service which may explain your problems with the dealer. When you asked him to change the service interval, it may have already been on the long life setting so he just assumed you wanted it changed to the interval service. 

As I understand it, you're concerned that if you try and make a claim on the warranty they may try and say that the car was not serviced in accordance with the manufacturer's guidelines. However, as long as the last service invoice clearly states that a long life service was carried out, I would say that as long as you have the car serviced within two years of the previous service there shouldn't be any problems (even if the "service now" indicator isn't on, a dealer isn't going to turn you away if you ask for a service).

If you're worried about the engine, you could always do an oil and filter change yourself - it's cheaper than brimming the fuel tank these days!

Harry


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## JockMacMad (May 18, 2011)

*2L*

Hmm I also was told it was up to 2L and I did not qualify when I tried to get it.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I guess dealer cluelessness can sometimes work to your advantage!


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## glacken (Oct 21, 2009)

No, it is for any size of engine.

That is why it is such great value for Phaeton owners.
I am told that it is financed by VW and not the garages.

I have it and the garage in Leeds said that at both services theyl fully inspect the car and put long life oil in.
First service done and second due June 2012.

I managed to get it at the old price of £299.

Glacken


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## arthurgodsake (Nov 26, 2010)

There are two deals in place. The first one is as you suggest, 2litre engines and under, but the second, which is on the website covers all models as long as they are under eight years old and have covered less than 80 thousand miles. Look on the VW home page under offers, rather than servicing. It is participating dealers only and expires at the end of the year I think. In the case of Phaeton owners, it is acknowledged to be a very good idea.
Tim


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## TampaAPB (Jul 18, 2009)

*Dealer says I need to replace Water Pump and Timing Belt at 46K*

I dropped my 2004 V8 off for brake service yesterday - needs front pads and rotors and rear pads apparently (check brake lights was on). I thought for Phaetons you always changed rotors and pads together, but agreed to do it anyway.

They also said I needed to replace the timing belt and water pump not because of mileage but due to age. I looked at the maintenance schedule (as I told them I would on the phone) and don't see anything that says this needs to be replaced at a time interval. I am concerned they are just telling me I need to do services which are not required according to VW specs. Can someone share some advice here?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Attached is the detailed *NORTH AMERICAN* service schedule (preventative maintenance service schedule) for MY 2004 Phaetons. I believe that the 2005 and 2006 model service schedules are very similar. I have also attached a fluid capacity list.

The North American cars are on 'fixed interval' (time and/or mileage) oil change intervals. The 'Rest of World' cars are on variable oil change intervals, which are based on time, mileage, fuel consumed, thermal loading, and duty cycle characteristics (in other words, the car figures out when the oil should be changed).

This schedule was published in 2003. Since then, there have been additional technical bulletins published advising of additional requirements - for example, a transmission fluid change at regular intervals for W12 powered cars, etc. Carefully review the first 4 pages of this discussion thread, you should be able to find the additional requirements here.

Note also that we, as owners, have learned that there are other preventative maintenance tasks that must be carried out which are not listed on the schedule. *These tasks are especially important as the vehicle gets older.* These include, but are not limited to:

*1)* Cleaning Sunroof Drains Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains

*2)* Cleaning the Cabin Air Intake Plenum Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains

*3)* Ensuring that all the lower body plugs are still in place and sealed Damage arising from Towing & Flatbed Transportation

*4)* Applying anti-corrosion compound to the wheel hubs when changing wheels Corrosion Prevention Precautions when removing and replacing Phaeton wheels

*5)* Replacing the batteries about every 5 years 

*6)* Replacing the tire pressure sensors about every 7 to 8 years 

*7)* Checking the Evaporator Condensate Pan Drain Lines Leakage via Air Conditioning Evaporator Pan or Evaporator Pan Drain Lines

The above list is not all-inclusive. A careful review of the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) will probably identify other preventative maintenance tasks that should be carried out.

Michael


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## TampaAPB (Jul 18, 2009)

Michael –

Thank you for the detailed reply. I genuinely admire the humility in your response, noting how you carefully said NAR cars are on a ‘fixed interval’ *oil change* cycle, while omitting reference to the remainder of the published preventive maintenance service schedule which clearly depicts a mileage based interval.

I will adopt the same “seek to understand” style in discussing the recommendations with my VW dealer today – sharing the service schedule attached, noting that I am aware NAR Phaeton oil changes are fixed interval, but I’ve not come across anything that indicates the other maintenance services in the schedule should also be performed fixed interval. I will post a reply to share their response – perhaps indeed there is a new technical bulletin on this topic.

I should note why I have some skepticism here - I did have my vehicle in for a regular oil change at the same dealer less than 4 weeks ago and none of the maintenance items – brakes, water pump or timing belt – were advised at the time. I have put less than 100mi on the Phaeton since that service. I of course realize that many dealers and their respective service departments regularly peruse these discussions boards and consequently the importance that we be civil and to some extent anonymous in our threads.

Regards,

Adam


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Adam,

Does the NAR car service booklet have pages relating to 'Additional Work', which is mainly mileage based, but can also be advised by the dealer based on age, operating conditions etc?

The pages attached below are from my ROW booklet for MY2005, showing that the V8 cam belt is scheduled at 80k but that the dealer could recommend replacement sooner.

One belt manufacturer says that 6 years is the maximum life of a timing belt, in the absence of the manufacturer taking liability, in effect, for longer.


Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

TampaAPB said:


> ... you carefully said NAR cars are on a ‘fixed interval’ *oil change* cycle, while omitting reference to the remainder of the published preventive maintenance service schedule which clearly depicts a mileage based interval.


Hi Adam:

Uh, you may have read too deeply into what I wrote. The big difference between maintenance schedules for the NAR and ROW cars is that the NAR cars follow a 'time and/or mileage' oil change cycle (meaning, oil should be changed when the time limit or the mileage limit is reached, whichever comes first), and the ROW cars follow an 'on condition' oil change cycle. I included that information only because we have a lot of forum members from Europe, and I wanted to avoid inadvertently misleading them.

Setting the oil change component of preventative maintenance aside, all other preventative maintenance activities worldwide are based on mileage. There is one exception to this, for very low utilization vehicles (for example, my own car, which averages about 700 miles a year) - in that case, the car should be serviced annually, rather than when the mileage thresholds are passed.

So far as the oil change business is concerned, the ROW cars do their own 'trend monitoring' of oil degradation. That is accomplished by counting engine thermal cycles, quantity of fuel consumed, number of miles traveled, and number of days elapsed since last oil change. All of these variables are considered, and the car then advises the owner (via a message in the instrument cluster) when the oil should be changed. There is a maximum calender time limit, regardless of other factors - that is once every 24 months. The car also tracks calendar time.

In order to use the 'on condition' oil change interval, a special type of long-life oil (generally not sold in North America, due to the high cost) is required. It is not possible to reprogram a NAR car to follow the on-condition maintenance program, but it is possible to program a ROW car to follow the fixed interval program. It is also possible to define an individual fixed-interval program that is different from the VW defaults.

Hope this clarifies the reason why I provided that information about oil change intervals.

Michael


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## TampaAPB (Jul 18, 2009)

Michael - Thanks for the follow-up and clarification, I did understand your intent.

And - here is the rest of the story of the 2004 Phaeton with 46K miles at the dealer for new brakes where the owner is also informed that VW recommends the Timing Belt and Water Pump be changed due to age of the vehicle:



After politely requesting some details on which service schedule shows the Timing Belt and Water Pump be replaced due to age of my vehicle, I am again informed that the Phaeton certified technician confirms it is required

Eventually the service adviser tires of my inquires ... and further cannot explain why they did not catch my brakes needed repair when the car was just in for maintenance a few weeks earlier and suggests the matters needs to be discussed with the service manager

The service manager calls me several hours later and actually apologizes, saying they should have caught the brake problem when the car was in for service. Then he goes to insist I must have misunderstood, that no, in fact VW does not recommend this service - they do due to the heat of Florida. I further inquired why the water pump needed to be changed and was informed it was just 3 additional bolts when the timing belt was changed and since it had a plastic impeller, absolutely should be replaced at the same time "no additional labor"

I politely decline the additional $2000 service, remind them I have a warranty on the car still and inform him that he should be careful to educate his service advisers on how they articulate recommendations to their customers in the future

I am going to find a different VW dealer to perform my service in the future. In fact, I am concerned my brakes were even installed correctly and will be taking the car to have it checked out by an independent mechanic next week
So - the moral of this story is: sometimes when you seek to understand, it still is a story you won't like.

Regards,

Adam


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## Pinkfloydd (Mar 6, 2010)

Let me know if you find success in Florida for Phaeton work. The VW dealership in Tallahassee actually said they would not work on my car. I was puzzled, but they said they have had trouble with every Phaeton that has come in so they now no longer work on them. I didn't think an authorized dealership could say that, but they did. :screwy:

There is a VW specialty shop here that I had do the timing belt, water pump, oil, brake fluid and cabin filter for $1900 including all parts, taxes, labor, etc. Not too bad. They admitted it was their first Phaeton timing belt change, but that it was similar to an Audi 8 cyl. change. Everything is still fine after 5000 miles. Holla' if you are ever up this way.

-Chris
[email protected]


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Adam:

Just in case it helps you evaluate things:

Service schedules are developed based on 'average' annual utilization, which is typically 12,000 miles (20,000 km) per year. Although most items on the car wear out proportionate to mileage accumulated, there are some items that are 'calendar life items' and will time-expire regardless of mileage accrued. The two best known examples are brake fluid (a 2 year life, regardless of mileage) and snow tires (a 4 year life, regardless of mileage). I am acutely aware of these two, having just had brake fluid replaced at 2 years of age with only 1,400 miles on it, and needing to replace all my snow tires this winter, even though they have no more than 4,000 miles total on them.

Serpentine belts do age over time. In some cases, it may be appropriate to replace a serpentine belt prior to reaching the suggested mileage interval. Normally, they are evaluated on a 'on condition' basis - which means if the belt shows any evidence of checking or cracking, it should be replaced.

The water pump in a V8 powered Phaeton is typically replaced at the same time the serpentine belt is replaced, regardless of the condition of the water pump. This is because the labour required to replace the water pump at the same time as the belt is minimal - only about half an hour more - and water pumps typically will not last for the full mileage lifetime of two serpentine belts. For that reason, it makes sense to replace them along with the serpentine belt, for the same reason it makes sense to replace brake rotors at the same time as brake pads.

In a perfect world, your dealer should have visually evaluated the condition of your timing belt because of its age, even though it was no-where close to the mileage replacement interval. If the belt showed any evidence of deterioration, it would have been appropriate to replace it. It was not appropriate to recommend a water pump replacement at the same time (even though this is normal practice with serpentine belt replacements), because your water pump does not 'deteriorate with time' the same way a serpentine belt can, and there is no need to replace it at 46,000 miles. I'll be as gracious as I can to the service writer who recommended that and presume that they just automatically suggested it because they are used to doing both the belt and pump together when the car hits the belt mileage limit, and the service writer did not pause and consider that if the belt was being replaced early (due to age-related issues), the water pump would not need replacement.

Michael


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*DIY oil change again this weekend*

The second time was so much eaiser than the first. One the entire wheel liner doesn't need to come out, just remove the fastners foward of the strut/hub assembly. It will lower and pivot with plenty of room to access the oil filter. Also, a cheap ($45) oil extractor off eBay worked flawlessly. Following are a few photos of the process.

12.5 quarts of M1 0-w40:










Oil Extractor off eBay:










Jump box instead of using car's battery:











Love this cordless screw driver with adjustible clutch and socket adapter:










Plenty of room:





































Make sure gasket seats properly here:










Antiseaze on hubs before installing winter wheels will aid in removal in a few months:










Old battery still working thanks to a monthly Napa top off:


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Auzi,

It looks to me that you didn't position your jack properly, hence damaging the metal lip that (on the Phaeton) is not sturdy enough to take the weight of the car.

Great and useful photos otherwise.

P.


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

This reply links in to an exchange Paximus and I have been having about the 2 year service plan but it's also highly relevant to this thread.

I called VW Luxury Car desk today and ended up putting the phone down on the guy!

My question was simple - what is the specification for the 1st year "Major Service" and the 2nd year "Minor Service" and after having me on hold for an age he came back to say that he had spoken to a ted and that there wasn't one!

In their world, the VAG scan tells them everything that needs to be done and they do it.

Including brake fluid replacement? "Oh, they check the level". How do you know, you said there is no schedule? "Er" What about the condition of rubber belts, etc.?

This really is utter nonsense, I quite seriously am intending to ring the factory in Dresden if I can find a few minutes tomorrow, it's becoming a point of principle with me now!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Well, obviously I'm interested in this, so I looked at an old discarded copy of the software used by VW Dealerships to determine what should be serviced. I entered some precise details about my vehicle and its service history to date (in real life this, and the vehicle's exact build options, would be partly pulled from the VW central database) and clicked the buttons.

This is the kind of report that is generated for the technician to follow.

It gave me some re-assurance that they will, in fact, follow the prescribed services. Having said that, there appears to be some leeway for error, namely in selecting two choices, (1) the exact type of service you want to be done and (2) ditto for the last service, where there is a choice of various time & mileage/fixed interval/oil change etc inspections and service options. The report varies quite a lot depending on those choices.

I think this is probably where there needs to be some negotiation and clarification with the booking clerk.

Cheers,
Chris


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Expoman said:


> ...
> Including brake fluid replacement? "Oh, they check the level".
> ...


 This is a terrible answer as brake fluid will absorb moisture from the air and MUST be changed every year, or every two years AT LEAST.
This is ESSENTIAL on our very heavy cars if we don't want the liquid to boil on heavy braking on a motorway, but more importantly when going down a mountain, when brakes are applied repeatedly during all the descent, therefore not having time to cool down between applications.

If you get the brake fluid to a boil, this means NO brakes....

This guy should get fired, to give an answer suggesting that topping up brake fluid is what it takes to keep your car safe and secure.


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Zaphh said:


> This is a terrible answer as brake fluid will absorb moisture from the air and MUST be changed every year, or every two years AT LEAST.
> This is ESSENTIAL on our very heavy cars if we don't want the liquid to boil on heavy braking on a motorway, but more importantly when going down a mountain, when brakes are applied repeatedly during all the descent, therefore not having time to cool down between applications.
> 
> If you get the brake fluid to a boil, this means NO brakes....
> ...


Absolutely Pierre and also not improved by the guy on the VW Lux Desk stating "I am not technical" - whilst I don't expect to get a VW technician on the end of the phone there, it would be nice to speak to someone who has some idea of the issues involved.

Taking the guys answers as gospel would mean that VW on somewhat further ahead on AI than you might have supposed........I find this apparent unthinking intoxication with computer control irritating at times, nobody loves or appreciates computers more than I and their application in cars like the Phaeton I find fascinating but the "don't worry your little head, the computer will take care of everything" response.....:banghead::banghead:


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Expoman said:


> Absolutely Pierre and also not improved by the guy on the VW Lux Desk stating "I am not technical" - whilst I don't expect to get a VW technician on the end of the phone there, it would be nice to speak to someone who has some idea of the issues involved...


The fact that he is not technical is not a problem, so long as he does not give technical advices, or refers to someone who is competent before giving answers.

It is the inconsistency of the guy that is problematic.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

If you want technical, stay here in the forum. If you want nice(ish) coffee, sit in the dealership. If you want sympathy, call Lux!

However, in my (brief) experience the folks at UK Lux I have spoken to took their job seriously and tried to understand what I wanted from them. They have gone to some length to help answer my questions, even if it means 8 phone redirects.

They 2-year Plan is an Insurance Policy of VW Finance. Lux tracked down the person who manages the Plan for me, so I guess that's as near the Horse's Mouth as you can get. 

The T&Cs of the policy they send through the post list the exclusions (tyres, wheels, brake fluid changes, front-end alignments, infotainment, Nav CDs, paint etc). I hope that everything else will be the stuff in the complicated Service Booklet tables, which is coded into that Dealership work system...

I am still a bit concerned that I am going to have to make a case to the booking clerk for some items though, and get a claims decision from VW Finance.

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

PS - they don't say they won't or shouldn't change the brake fluid (it's on the work list, so it will get done), just that the exact wording of the policy says that VW may not pay for it, I might have to.

However, I will see if they pick this up or not.


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Pierre , I disagree, them not being technical is a problem in a job such as this, the majority of after sales discussions they will have will be about technical issues, not many people will ring them up just to tell them that their car is running perfectly!

Chris - Lux rang me back again today following my email to them where I enclosed screenshots of dealers listing what is in the Major Service Plan and they are "re-opening" the case. It appears that Brake Fluid replacement is not included in the plan, I remarked that it is interesting that she should know that given that there is no list of what the Major service consists of in existence!

Study of my service book reveals that neither the pollen filter nor the air filter were replaced despite the "Major Service" lists mentioned above specifically listing them as to be changed. It is also clear that my brake fluid is over 2 years old and they should have offered me the option of paying £59 to have it changed and failed to do so.

Watch this space!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Expoman:

Thanks, that reply from Lux is moving it forward. Obviously I'd be pleased to pick things off their cut-price menu, if that menu is attached to the Plan and not just to the under 2-litre deals.

As you say, 2-year brake fluid change is absolutely on the service schedule, no discussion. It should have been done regardless who ended up paying for it, unless it was only done 1 year ago. I'm disappointed it's excluded from the plan, although not surprised... 

I guess it's not very convenient for you to to go back to the dealer!

Chris


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Paximus said:


> Expoman:
> 
> Thanks, that reply from Lux is moving it forward. Obviously I'd be pleased to pick things off their cut-price menu, if that menu is attached to the Plan and not just to the under 2-litre deals.
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,

It now transpires and thanks entirely to the efforts of Joanne mars on the Lux desk who has been marvellous, that all of my misgivings about the clowns at Alan Day were justified.

Instead of carrying out a major service, all they did was change the oil and oil filter and this despite the car having had an oil change with long life oil 12 months ago!

The bottom line is that the transaction with them has been annulled by VW and I have to start again and have the major service done the next time I am in the UK which, as luck would have it, is in 2 weeks time.

I still have not abandoned the Brake fluid issue - I sense we have them on the run with this, as you know the Service Schedule booklet clearly indicates that the fluid should be replaced every two years and this, IMO, must make it part of a "Major" Service.

I have been promised an actual schedule detailing what constitutes a "Major" service next week so rest assured I will post it as soon as I receive it!

It really isn't the question of the £59 for the brake fluid change, I think the Service Plan for £349 for 2 years including 2 MOT's is excellent value, it is more the issue of wanting to have the car in optimal condition - as Pierre pointed out, it is a very heavy car and if you do a lot of high speed motorway driving, you especially want to feel that you have your brakes firmly underneath you.

All best,
Steven


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Joanne Mars at VW Lux helped me too, it's good to have someone efficient on the case. I have seen others there praised in another forum too. I'm all agog to hear what they send you.

I hope you get nice(ish) coffee at the dealership in 2 weeks time. And probably biscuits too... Oh, and a 'Major' service. 

Chris


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

The saga grinds on.....As I have a trip to the UK at short notice, I thought I would book the car into a dealer near the M20 and pick it up on the way back 2 days later - what could possible go wrong.

Erm...for the second time of asking (I tried to do this with them a month ago) they don't have any loan cars available, they only have 4 to cover both their VW and Honda service franchises.

So, it's a bit like a restaurant having premises, chefs, ingredients, waiters, etc., but only 1 gas ring to cook on!

So, in despairation, I've just had my brake fluid changed this morning in France while I waited and planned to book to the car in for the major service in Coventry,UK where I will be for 5 days next February. Called the dealer, "yes, we have Phaeton trained technicians, yes, no problem, we can pick the car up and deliver it back to you.....Erm, ah, our reservations system is not open for the new year yet - can you call back in a months time"?

You couldn't make it up!


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Hi all,

This really is becoming Kafkaesque.

I spoke to VW Lux car desk again today (Joanne) who was calling to tell me that she could not send me a list of the iWork to be carried out on the Service Plan services because one did not exist (seriously!).

Strangely, and she is one a breed of people there utterly unable to see the paradox in what they are saying, she was able to tell me what was not included on the "non-existent" list, e.g. brake fluid, cam belt exchange. She started to dissemble "I've tried so hard to sort this out for you Mr C...." when I asked how how, if she did not know what was on the list, she knew what wasn't she simply continued to repeat "the technician who does the work will know what needs to be done" or "the retailer" will know or "they will do all that needs to be done"..So, amazingly, I have a £349 service Plan bought and paid for but i still don't know what I will get for the money other than, so far, an oil change that it appears was not actually required.:banghead:


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Stephen,

I couldn't repress a chuckle when reading your last sentence... :screwy:


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Zaphh said:


> Hi Stephen,
> 
> I couldn't repress a chuckle when reading your last sentence... :screwy:


That's very cruel of you Pierre - pauvre de moi.......

But am I despondent - No! I have compiled a list of parts and checks, I have found the non-premium rate number for the relevant department at VW Uk (Lux Desk Competence has now been exhausted) so when I have half an hour next week I shall be putting my shoulder to the plough once again.

Watch this space!

All best,
Steven

PS Some of the people I have recently spoken to at VW would not pas the Turing test.


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

The latest.....

Joanne from Lux Car Desk called again today to ask if all is well and within a minute we were back on the old, well trodden ground of "What will be included in my service". Today's story was that they have a list but it's in a booklet. Me "Scan it and email it to me". her "It's lots of pages". Me:"You can scan more than 1 page". Her: "we want to do everything possible...." blah, blah.

But got my service plan conformational letter plus a "booklet" which is actually a single sheet of paper. The letter somewhat optimistically claims "Details have been enclosed that explain all you need to know about your service plan" then rather disingenuously states:

"As advertised (where?) this service plan includes a maximum of the following activity:
1 x Oil Change at 10,000 miles or 12 months (whichever comes first)
1 x Inspection Service at 20,000 miles 0r 24 months (whichever comes first)
1 x Dust and Pollen filter at 24 months
1 x Spare Plug Change (if required)*
1 x Fuel Filter (if required)*
1 x Air Filter (if required).*

*As determined by the manufacturers recommended service schedule

The "booklet" states - "What's included" Servicing activity is based on the manufacturers service schedule and then says "Main Service Exclusions" which starts with "All non-standard service work"??

It then carries on with a fairly obvious list of exclusions such as Cam Belts, Fuel, Body Repairs and, oddly, broken Aerials, Glass and Lenses.

No mention anywhere of replacement or not of brake fluid.

So, as far as I can see, we still do not know what will actually be done - or am I missing something here?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I have an outstanding call from her to answer too, so I'll try and build on your 'work in progress'! My policy docs have not arrived yet, only the T&Cs with the receipt.

I am not holding out a lot of hope, especially since the next dealer service was quoted at the same price as the Plan. It's not like I'm losing out.

Still, it would be nice to have had a clear response from the Policy department without all this back-and-forth... 

Thanks for the update!

Chris


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Hi Chris,

Good luck with that!

As you say, we are not losing out but why on earth are they so reticent about being specific about what the plan includes?

All best,
Steven


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Update:

Another letter arrived from VW Finance concering the UK Fixed Price Service Plan. This one stated that only one oil change was included over the 2 years.

I managed to get through to 'Service' at VW Finance, and the helpful gent explained that in fact it was two oil changes, the 2nd one was hidden in the words 'Inspection Service'.


So, in summary, it includes these things:

-- One 'Inspection' Service including oil & filter
-- One small service, which is basically only oil & filter
-- Two MoT fees

and then, but only if the Elsa-Win central VW service database says they are due for the exact vehicle VIN history:

-- dust/pollen filters
-- spark plugs, if petrol
-- fuel filter
-- air filters


It excludes:

-- 2-year brake fluid change
-- maintenance screwy: I thought that's what Servicing is all about?)
-- any repairs not deemed as reasonable Fair Wear and Tear
-- Wear & Tear items (is that as in 'belts & braces'?)

Finally, nobody knows if the menu of additional work for fixed prices listed on the same page as the Plan on the VW UK web site is available to us or not. And I mean 'nobody'.

It's still a reasonable deal, but if only they advertised it properly.

The score remains:
VW Finance - 1 Owners - 0 


Chris


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Well done Chris,

That didn't take us long did it???

It really is quite extraordinary what a meal they make of the whole thing, why the problem in spelling it out and what are the ridiculous inclusions like "excludes maintenance" all about?

Also daft to exclude replacement of brake fluid (just increase the price!), a service plan frommthe manufacturer should be based on their recommendations, how many Phaetons owners would jib at a plan of £399' we've even got Yorkshiremen lobbing out for bling seat controllers - that's the true power of the Phaeton!

It seems quite reasonable to only replace things that need replacing based on the service book / car computer reports and, as you say, it still represents a good deal but why all the mystery?

All best,
Steven


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm sure there's a very very small print item excluding bling seat controller replacement. Shame, because they look really nice!!


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## Expoman (May 15, 2011)

Paximus said:


> I'm sure there's a very very small print item excluding bling seat controller replacement. Shame, because they look really nice!!


They do actually, I'm quietly jealous!


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## Panther427 (May 20, 2012)

I read today on motul's website that oil spec 503-01 was replaced by vw oil spec 504-00


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Some Phaeton versions must not use upgraded VW engine oils, for example the V10 must stay with the older spec. 

Chris


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## tomcruise (Jun 2, 2012)

Guys i am not getting you what you are posting on this thread ? 
What this thread is actually about ? 
But i have get little bit info about that: 
The Audi dealer charged about 50$ for an oil change (and they frequently sent coupons as well), and when I requested synthetic for my S8, it cost me $100(just the oil). The engine has near the same oil capacity; 9qts for the V8 Phaeton (vs 8 qts in my s8) but the W12 being the W12 has 12.5 qt capacity. 200$ would be way too high under normal circumstances in my opinion


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi tomcruise, 

This thread has been running for 7 years with general remarks and updates about oil changes and servicing relating to W12, V10, V8, V6 TDI and V6 Phaetons. 

It's referenced in the TOCs, so I guess we shouldn't ramble on too much, but we are a friendly bunch and get sidetracked sometimes. 

Phaeton servicing is expensive if you pay Phaeton Certified VW dealer labour rates, probably much the same situatin as for your S8. 

best, 
Chris


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## GeigerVW (Aug 15, 2012)

*2004 Phaeton with original timing belt at 66,000 miles, wait until 80,000?*

I just purchased a 2004 w/ 66K actual miles. Good records by previous owner at same dealership where I bought. My BMW also has an interference engine and I change the belt at 60K or 4 years, whichever comes first.

The schedule in this thread makes no mention of time passing, only miles driven and says it should be changed every 80K. Since this original belt is 8 years old, should I go ahead and change it?

I have seen a timing belt kit for around $425 with new water pump and gaskets. I am handy with a wrench and plan to do this myself. Anyone have any tips or traps?

Geiger


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

There's a lot of information in various threads about the cam belt change on the V8. General consensus seems to be around a 5 year limit, although I didn't have mine changed until last year on my 2004. At 8 years, you're pushing your luck. There are people who've done it themselves, if you do, make sure you do the water pump & thermostat at the same time (there are lots of reports here of failed thermostats and they're very difficult to get to). The procedure requires removal of the bumper cover, and moving the bumper forward. From my perspective, it's a fairly major undertaking, although others may disagree. When mine was done, the dealer managed to do something (I have no idea what) that caused the front cam chain tensioner to become very noisy (a known issue), and they turned out to be incapable of getting the bumper cover back on without breaking it. Mine now has a new bumper. The dealers charge between about $1400-$2200 for the job, so if you go the dealer route, call around for quotes and make sure the cheaper ones do everything (bearings, rollers, pump, thermostat, etc).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos and PDFs rehosted. 

Michael


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## Phaeton_qatar (Jun 20, 2012)

Hi Fellows, 

I did my last oil change using Castrol but now it is no longer available in the market. After a lot of searching I finally found an unknown brand Sharlu that does support VW50200/50500 specification. It is sold for $20 (4litre) bottle compared to Castrol $84 (4litre). I’m happy for the price difference but I’m not sure if the quality is similar for the 5W-40 grade. Does the phaeton only like Castrol or well-known oil for the engine as I don't want risk damaging the engine? Your comments will help me decide. Attach are the pics and technical data sheet for the Sharlu brand.


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

I would say go ahead and use it... It has API SM rating and fully synthetic. The price is on the lower side of synthetic oil price range. I think the prices of the name brand in your area is grossly marked up. I'd rather support the local brand as long they have been in business for a while. 

The real question is hoe many miles do you drive a year and how often do you change your oil? What oil filter are you using? 

With synthetic oil, I change once a year or 12K miles or under with a good high quality oil filter.


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

You should be able to compare specs of that oil with the castrol. Try to keep the viscosity ratings close. But it also depends on how and how far you drive. 

I just made the switch to Mobil 1 0W40. My work commute is 9 miles each way. I noticed that my oil rarely gets to 200-210F within that time. That's not good, as oil is most efficient at it's operating temp. The M1 0W40 has a lower viscosity than Castrol 5W40 at startup temps, and about the same at operating temps. I've only been running that oil for about two weeks now, but I have noticed that my oil is at operating temp about 3/4 of the way to my destination. Still not ideal, but MUCH better. I expect that I may get slightly more mpg's out of it too. On this last tank I got less, but I've also been catching a lot more traffic than usual. 

As long as it meets the VW502.00 spec, you should be fine. If you want to be sure, take a sample of your oil when you change it and send it in for analysis. Then do the same after you use the Sharlu and compare. Each oil will likely have different build-ups to begin with, but you'll be able to identify wear elements as well. After a couple uses you can figure out which oil is treating your engine better. The first oil change isn't the best indicator as typically the new oil will have to deal with some of the remnants from the old stuff. I use blackstone-labs for my UOA's. 

Aaron


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## Phaeton_qatar (Jun 20, 2012)

Tiger0002 said:


> The real question is hoe many miles do you drive a year and how often do you change your oil? What oil filter are you using?
> 
> With synthetic oil, I change once a year or 12K miles or under with a good high quality oil filter.


 I drive around 15000km = 9320miles a year and only use oem filter. Are you saying that Castrol in U.S is around the same price as sharlu ? 

Asad


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Be interesting to hear what effect (if any) that lower viscosity has on the oil analysis results. I'm wary of putting lower viscosity in, especially since the cold viscosity is so low anyway, because of the resulting lower oil pressure.


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

*Re: Oil Change, Maintenance & Service Schedules (includes TB 17-06-01) [TOC]*

Thats what i'm interested to see. I'd like to hook up an oil pressure gauge to find out what it's pushing. Visc at 210 is almost the same with castrol 5w40 and m1 0w40. That's the number that really matters to me.


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Phaeton_qatar said:


> I drive around 15000km = 9320miles a year and only use oem filter. Are you saying that Castrol in U.S is around the same price as sharlu ?
> 
> Asad


 Most brand name synthetic motor oil including Castrol is about $9 a quart. 

However, I can get Shell Rotella 5W40 full synthetic oil for around I think $5 or 6 a quart. Same for Amsoil OE motor oil with membership. 

For the mileage you are driving, once a year oil change is all you needed. I might even change the oil filter twice a year while keeping the motor oil for one full year. I wish there is a better oil filter that is designed for longer drain interval.


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## Phaeton_qatar (Jun 20, 2012)

IwasHuman said:


> You should be able to compare specs of that oil with the castrol. Try to keep the viscosity ratings close. But it also depends on how and how far you drive.
> 
> Aaron



I have compiled a list of motor oil that I found in Qatar and compared the specs like viscosity and flash point. I managed to also find other brand of oil which includes Shell Helix and TOTAL oil both costing at $34 for 4 liter so total cost for replacing oil would be $68 compared to Castrol $164. Looks like Castrol is expensive here for no technical reason other then to rip off customers since the U.S price is reasonable. 

Which oil is good when comparing the spec for example, is low viscosity good or bad ?


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

Phaeton_qatar said:


> I have compiled a list of motor oil that I found in Qatar and compared the specs like viscosity and flash point. I managed to also find other brand of oil which includes Shell Helix and TOTAL oil both costing at $34 for 4 liter so total cost for replacing oil would be $68 compared to Castrol $164. Looks like Castrol is expensive here for no technical reason other then to rip off customers since the U.S price is reasonable.
> 
> Which oil is good when comparing the spec for example, is low viscosity good or bad ?


From everything I've read, oil is its most efficient at a viscosity of around 10.0, for combustion engines. But, a better way to gauge if your engine is being properly lubricated and your oil is not too thin or too thick is to check the oil pressure. I think the rule of thumb is about 10PSI per 1,000 rpm. The thing I looked for when changing oils was a lower viscosity at cold temps. If you compare data sheets to the Castrol 5W40 STP oil, finding an oil with close to the same visc at 100 deg C, but lower at 40 deg C, should fit the bill while being cautious. You can also go through all of the minerals/additives listed and compare those. Castrol 5W40 has 13.9 at 100C, and 82.6 at 40C. Mobil 1 0W40 is 13.5 at 100C and 75.0 at 40C, and has a lot more molybdenum, calcium, and boron. 

Moly is a major lubricating element that does a good job sticking parts and creating a durable film. 

Calcium is a detergent. Castrol uses magnesium, which is a dispersant, so they kind of do the same thing. A lot of people prefer calcium because magnesium becomes abrasive as it oxidizes. 

Boron is another filming additive, and I believe it aids the ZDDP's function. 

ZDDP is a zinc-phosphorus anti-wear additive. This was invented by Castrol, and is mainly used by "European" blend oils. Most oil's in the US were somewhat strong-armed out of utilizing this additive because it was shown to cause damage to catalytic converters. However, research also showed that more valve-train damage occurred in engines not using ZDDP oil vs those that did. I'd rather replace my cat-converters than have increased wear on my engine internals. 

I'm a big fan of M1 0W40, but wouldn't be opposed to trying something else. If I decide to try another oil later, it'll probably be Liqui Moly 0W30. I can't find any info on the additives, so I might buy a quart just to send in for a VOA to see what's inside. It's a bit pricey, but what I can find says it has a viscosity of 10.1 at 100C, and 52.0 at 40C. 

Before doing this, I'd want to see what kind of pressure I'm pumping at M1's viscosity. My next oil change I'm going to put in a t-valve in line with the oil pressure sending unit, with a mechanical pressure sensor hooked up. That way I can always tap in and check my pressures. That's the plan anyways. 

Aaron


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## Phaeton_qatar (Jun 20, 2012)

IwasHuman said:


> From everything I've read, oil is its most efficient at a viscosity of around 10.0, for combustion engines.
> Aaron



Hi Aaron, 

Thanks for the detail reply. I've learned a lot about Engine oil . So if lower viscosity is better for the engine then from the comparison table above, I think Shell Helix stands out in the low viscosity rating. Correct?... I have not seen Moly Engine oil over here. but i'll keep searching if they have a distributer. 

Good luck on the pressure oil test.

Asad


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## IwasHuman (Jun 30, 2012)

Phaeton_qatar said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> Thanks for the detail reply. I've learned a lot about Engine oil . So if lower viscosity is better for the engine then from the comparison table above, I think Shell Helix stands out in the low viscosity rating. Correct?... I have not seen Moly Engine oil over here. but i'll keep searching if they have a distributer.
> 
> ...


A lot of the info I learned was from bobistheoilguy.com. Tons of information there. You can spend a full day reading through the articles published on his site, and then through a number of good threads in the forum. All good stuff.

As far as the Shell oil, are you talking the Shell Helix Ultra AX 5W30? That was one of my considerations, with visc 12.0 at 100C and 67.1 at 40C. It's a little thinner than the dealer recommended stuff at operating temps. Personally, I'd like to see oil pressures before going to something that much thinner, just to be sure. I also looked at Total Quartz 9000 0W30, 12.2 at 100C and 68.5 at 40C. Seems the shell should have been less viscous at 40C. I'm not sure about the additives in those too oils. Do an internet search for "VOA" and whatever oil you're looking for. You might find a virgin oil analysis, which will have all of those figures. 

Good luck!


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

*What viscoity oil for W12 BAP engine?*

It's time to do an oil change on my newly acquired '04 W12 with the BAP engine. It looks like the Bentley manual and the VW fluid capacity chart show contradicting information. The Bentley manual lists VW standard 502 00 and 505 01 with a viscosity rating of 0W-40 for oil change and 5W-40 for topping off only. On the other hand the '04 VW fluid capacity chart lists the same VW standards but 5W-40 as the only viscosity rating for the W12. 

I'm in a mild climate (SF Bay Area) so probably 5W-40 would be fine but if 0W-40 is required I can use that instead. What are you guys using in your W12 these days?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> It's time to do an oil change on my newly acquired '04 W12 with the BAP engine. It looks like the Bentley manual and the VW fluid capacity chart show contradicting information. The Bentley manual lists VW standard 502 00 and 505 01 with a viscosity rating of 0W-40 for oil change and 5W-40 for topping off only. On the other hand the '04 VW fluid capacity chart lists the same VW standards but 5W-40 as the only viscosity rating for the W12.
> 
> I'm in a mild climate (SF Bay Area) so probably 5W-40 would be fine but if 0W-40 is required I can use that instead. What are you guys using in your W12 these days?



My Utah VW dealer filled my 2004 W12 BAP with Castrol Edge Professional OE Full Synthetic *5W-40* when I got my oil changed. They said it wasn't available in stores. I asked for and received a quart to go. It's in a gold plastic bottle.

To be fair, I believe they use that oil for every car. 

-Eric


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> My Utah VW dealer filled my 2004 W12 BAP with Castrol Edge Professional OE Full Synthetic *5W-40* when I got my oil changed. They said it wasn't available in stores. I asked for and received a quart to go. It's in a gold plastic bottle.


I've been using Castrol Edge 5W-40 Full Synthetic Oil in my V8 Phaetons and am happy with it. Amazon is selling the Castrol Edge 0W-40 in the 5qt jug for $22 but they don't have the 5W-40 in the 5qt jug. Probably go with the 0W-40.


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