# Cleaning intake valves deposits



## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

Asked a friend at a Lexus dealer what they usedon their DI engines. He said Seafoam through a vacuum line and a borescope to check the areas.


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## iGen3 (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: Cleaning intake valves deposits (vweosdriver)*

My dealer told me that VW has contracted with BG to use there equipment. You can get the single or double dose, but neither will take care of the level of crud I had at 100k miles, but I will probably do that at 125K miles..too much of a pain to remove the intake.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Did mine for the second time and in just 5000 miles, the valves were again slightly coated with burned oil.
I highly doubt there is ANY way other than physically removing the intake manifold every x amount of miles to scrub the valves, that will take care of the problem, even in the slightest way.....
Sorry.....


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## vweosdriver (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: Cleaning intake valves deposits (iGen3)*

IIRC you didn't have any engine problems until you got to 100,000. I'll be there in another 8 years so a clean up every 10 years won't be too bad.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: Cleaning intake valves deposits (vweosdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vweosdriver* »_IIRC you didn't have any engine problems until you got to 100,000. I'll be there in another 8 years so a clean up every 10 years won't be too bad.

When after cleaning you can actually FEEL the difference in how the engine is working,
you KNOW, you have to do it in less than 100,000....
Even if you think you have zero issues...


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

i think seafoaming does something for us. My car was bought at 58k miles, and i have seafoamed it like 10 times now. im at 61,200 and my idle is PERFECT, other than my stock PCV hiccup, and she seems to pull way better without those weird instances of a "missfire" feel.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_i think seafoaming does something for us. My car was bought at 58k miles, and i have seafoamed it like 10 times now. im at 61,200 and my idle is PERFECT, other than my stock PCV hiccup, and she seems to pull way better without those weird instances of a "missfire" feel.

Think of it this way..
When you spray carb spray DIRECTLY at the valves, and all the deposited crap doesn't
even break a sweat, you KNOW seafoam is just gonna tickle it...
I used a light scrubbing pad to get things moving....


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

All of this talk has me thinking about my engines' condition. I bought mine with 26000km and it got Castrol until 34000km.. I'm sure there's some gunk in there. Now I'm running a much better oil (LubroMoly) and at 41000km I wonder about the valves and the cam followers' condition.
My understanding of these additives/or cleaning mixtures is that their effectiveness is superficial at best. To really de-gunk you're gonna have to open'r up an scrub. Since I'm not a mechanic I wonder how much this would cost?


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## iGen3 (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: Cleaning intake valves deposits (vweosdriver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vweosdriver* »_IIRC you didn't have any engine problems until you got to 100,000. I'll be there in another 8 years so a clean up every 10 years won't be too bad.

no, I had misfires with CEL as far back as 60k miles.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (rickjaguar)*

i was quoted 250 by a local company that is very trusted.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Manifold removal is one thing, spending time and being
patient with the cleaning is another....
It took me more than 3 hours of cleaning to get the valves "almost" clean the first time, and about half that to make them shine the second time, just after 5000 miles.
I highly doubt ANY shop is gonna "waste time" to hand clean/scrub your valves.....
Unfortunately....this is a VERY HIGH maintenance car.....


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

.
_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
I highly doubt ANY shop is gonna "waste time" to hand clean/scrub your valves.....
Unfortunately....this is a VERY HIGH maintenance car.....

hahaha... i think you're right.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (rickjaguar)*

Golf RS speaks the truth. 
unless a chemical is misted PRE TB while running ever 10-15K FROM NEW...........using seafoam via basketball needle is like throwing handfulls of rice at the wall of china to take it down.
BMW is having big problems with the 335, 135, 760 DI engines as well. I was talking with a BMW high up rep the other day and he went on to say..................."even the BMW induction chemicals misted pre TB will do little to nothing when DI motors have 50K". They are pulling intake manifolds and scrubbing until blue in the face. He also went on to say bmw is going to start suggesting 15K induction services from new on all DI cars. 
the induction "chemical" they will be using.........................drum roll............................walnut shells!!!!!!!!!
They are also looking into a CATCH CAN SETUP!!!


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

walnut shells? lol, hmm... okie dokie.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_walnut shells? lol, hmm... okie dokie.



They have been using walnut shells to clean carbon since be4 I was born. Its a great blasting media!


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

how would u clean an auto trans...same concept as pushing the car forward in a manual?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (08 passat turbo)*

I think for the transmission you just drain the fluid, put in 1 pound of unshelled walnuts and then drive it around...
No seriously though, the "walnut gun" technique is commonly used, like rabidrabbit said.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

i believe you have to rotate the crank manually on DSG


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

i dont have dsg


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

so... u just ground of shells and shoot them at the valves? that doesnt sound to... sane...
do they get burned off or do u close the valves off before? and if u close em... wouldnt u need to stop all the time to vacuum it all out every few seconds?


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Krieger)*

The blasting has been used for YEARS! But again, it's kinda messy. The key to the FSI engine is to keep it clean once it's clean. Yes, this is a lot of work, but once you have taken dozens of these intakes off, it's not too bad. 
At the dealer, I am seeing A LOT more of these.....as far as VW, the corporate guys have been blaming this on fuel quality(B.S.) for the longest time, but here lately I have actually gotten a few to follow my thought process. The "Gunk" is not so much carbon as it is just oily deposits. The catch-can setup do help quite a bit, but still......as GolfRS said, these are HIGH MAINTANENCE engines!!!

I am gonna experiment with my GLI and see what happens. I'm gonna pull the intake and get the valves spotless and see what goes on. I use SeaFoam every 10K right now, but think I'm gonna make it every oil change from now on. Also have been using the BSH stg. II catch-can since it's release.
-J. Hines
Good luck guys, if you don't already know........you better learn all there is to know about you FSI engines and save some $$$$ on repairs outside warr.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_so... u just ground of shells and shoot them at the valves? that doesnt sound to... sane...
do they get burned off or do u close the valves off before? and if u close em... wouldnt u need to stop all the time to vacuum it all out every few seconds?

you want the valves closed. the residual media will get burnt off via combustion......its one of the main reason this blasting media is used for this application. Depends on the machine used as to how it functions. Its not really something the average DIY could do without the machine.
On the other hand I have heard of a sabatoge case where 1 tech dumped TONS of the media into the intake to try to get another tech fired and it did ruin the engine.


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## rickjaguar (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

I'd like to see someone post a step by step of this.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
you want the valves closed. the residual media will get burnt off via combustion......its one of the main reason this blasting media is used for this application. Depends on the machine used as to how it functions. Its not really something the average DIY could do without the machine.

very interesting stuff.
i wonder what else u can blast in there without too many problems... like maybe something that would be combustible, but remain a solid till super high heat. something u could suck into the manifold. i doubt it exists, but it would be cool to be able to use something like that and save a ton of time by not removing the manifold and scrubbing everything.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (Krieger)*

Here's mine at 93K miles.......HARD driving, almost all highway. Have BSH STG. II catch-can since 60K and SeaFoam every 10K, still get build-up
















And here is after a cleaning with brake clean, small pick, small pocket screwdriver and a vacuum evacuator. Took about 40 minutes per cylinder, but now they are spoless.....cleaned a little more after these pics, but now will incorporate pulling intake to clean valves into my 20K service for my car
















I'm a tech for VW, but all-in-all, takes about 30 minuets to take intake manifold off, so not too bad considering you get a better driving car after. We usually see less timing pull and better overall performance INSTANTLY after doing this!! Also, this crap builds up on the tips of the injectors causing a non-uniform spray pattern http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Hope this helps you guys a little........
-J. Hines


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

And here's the last customer's car that I did........75K miles of city driving by a young lady. Never drove car hard or anything, so NOT GOOD for 2.0T, not what it was designed for. But hurts to even look at this..........took FOREVER to clean, but car felt 300% better when done and she was astonished!!!








Most noticebale difference IMO, is the oil condensation that is collected in her intake track compared to in mine. The catch-can is obviously doing it's job by taking vapors out, but I am still contemplating make it vent to atmosphere instead of going back into my PCV and through the turbo again. Reading mixed reviews right now....
-J. Hines


_Modified by jhines_06gli at 9:20 PM 8-19-2009_


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## SDM (Aug 9, 2007)

Wonder what the long term OEM solution will be for our direct-injection problem?


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (SDM)*

BMW is having the same issues with DI engines, but they are taking action. They are in process for developing a "blasting" tool to basically walnut blast the valves, but also have development of an OEM production catch-can setup to help with vapors. That's all what I hear rumored from some friends I have at the BMW store, but seems like something HAS to be done. A lot more cars are going DI now and this is the effect?? Doesn't seem to good for the market, especially not the turbo cars seeing as airflow is EVERYTHING!!!!
-J. Hines


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## SDM (Aug 9, 2007)

From your experience at the shop how are the engines doing that run a w/m setup, any better?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

hmmm... thats pretty ****ing scary...
im thinking most of that is from the 60k miles u already had caked on there since the deposits are all dry.
anyone ever think of adding a source of vacuum to a can that would normally vent to atmosphere? and by this i mean maybe an electronically controlled vacuum source that applies a small but sustained source of vacuum?
im wondering also what VW and everyone else is gonna do when ALL their cars keep coming back with crazy build up and the owners discover that this engine was pretty much made for sludge and build up and nobody did anything to really help solve it until it's too late.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (SDM)*

As far as water-meth, I work for the VW dealership......from VW rep's perspective, they look for any and every reason to void a warranty and make the customer pay, so I am yet to see a water-meth setup. I have a feeling I will be the first in my area on the FSI.....lol. Basically all the locals are simple bolt-ons and flashes. I am gonna keep log of everything from here out since I have a clean slate. But I am seriously thinking of blocking off the port on the back of the valve cover that pushes back into the turbo inlet and venting that or something. I think that is the ONLY place I am still getting oil recirculated through the least bit. I have the EJ DV relocate kit and the pipe at the turbo where DV recirculates still has a small oil vapor coating on the inside, but not bad.........still, the less oil the better IMO.
But I'm still working on some things and I know there are plenty of others out there like me that constantly monitor these things and ar constantly looking for better ways to do things, so there will be a 100% fix for this, but when?
-J. Hines


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## iGen3 (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_hmmm... thats pretty ****ing scary...
im thinking most of that is from the 60k miles u already had caked on there since the deposits are all dry.
anyone ever think of adding a source of vacuum to a can that would normally vent to atmosphere? and by this i mean maybe an electronically controlled vacuum source that applies a small but sustained source of vacuum?
im wondering also what VW and everyone else is gonna do when ALL their cars keep coming back with crazy build up and the owners discover that this engine was pretty much made for sludge and build up and nobody did anything to really help solve it until it's too late.

VW is going to hit you up $150 min for BG service. use your $10 owner loyalty coupon


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

well, if u just plug up the rear port, and have a vented front PCV, i think that would be best. I mean, if all the gases and oil only have 1 way to go, and the pressure is lower in the can, it will go into the can, and then into the atmosphere.


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## oldcorradopower (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: (Krieger)*

guys you make me crazy ! I think I will inspect those valve tomorrow !
For your information there's a better way to cleaning those valves manually. I think some specialised shops offer some kind of ultrawave cleaning technology or chemical cleaning of the valve with a recirculating machine plugged into the intake manifold or injectors of the car ! I already saw this somewhere and one garage did that on my last car with perfect results.
not too costly, something like 50-60 bucks. 
You can also use gaz additives recommended by bosch or switch to AMSOIL OIL that will never get into vapor !!! The oil will save you lot of maintenance cost.


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## SDM (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

Ask around at your shop if you get a chance about how our EGR setup works on our engines, I've never had a definitive answer from anyone regarding that question. It has something to do with valve overlap were dirty exhaust gasses, for a short period of time, end up back in the intake manifold, wonder how much this also contributes to our carbon build up in addition to the PCV re-circ.


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## scott1971 (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

It really surprises me to see that some VW service people are blaming this on low quality gas. Clogged injectors in this engine, maybe, crapped up valves, never. Gas never even touches the intake or the valves! It's a direct injected engine.
Also, a local indie VW/Audi shop in my area just purchase on of those walnut blasters. Guess where I'll be heading in the future.
I've also installed the BSH Stg2+ catch can. The only thing that still worries me is the rear PCV valve still dumps directly in to the intake, it would be nice to have this also running through the catch can. But I don't know if that is possible.
Also, jhines_06gli, great information on this thread. Thanks for posting it up, hope you can keep us all informed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (scott1971)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scott1971* »_It really surprises me to see that some VW service people are blaming this on low quality gas.

I know! One VW-tech told me it was due to the type of brake fluid I was using! (kidding)


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## Britishav8tor (May 8, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Saaber has an awesome bypass solution to this problem I have all the part but I waiting for my CAI to arrive so I can then put on a new Exhaust/chip all at once and also do his slash cut pipe. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4387972
Sorry if he already posted it ... I'll admit it ... I didn't read the whole thread! 
As for cleaning I think I once saw someone suggest GMs top end cleaner ... any ideas if this works ?? I'd be worried about shooting walnuts or anything else no combustible into the engine? Also if the intake valves look like this what do the exhaust ones look like or the pistons crowns for that matter??? Anyone got any info on this? My car has 50K on it and it idles rough. 
Saaber2 - I couldn't find a way to PM you







anyway, here are the mods I'm going to do, do you think I will have any problems with your slash cut system ? I saw someone say the comp took a day to adjust does that seem right ?
2.5 Turbo back exhaust (not 3 they said it allows turbo to spool up too quick) 
GIAC chip 
3" Race style CIA


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## tjdaniels24 (Apr 30, 2008)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

subscribed.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## utekineir (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: (tjdaniels24)*

from the other threads. 

_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_
3) Regular italian tuneups (VW claims int the engine patent that running at high rpm for over 20 min will burn off deposits but I think it will only help a little) (cost: gas)

So, on a dsg car driving around in s mode for a tank or two of gas should help?


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## FlexedGTi (Aug 6, 2009)

*Re: (utekineir)*

i like to do as much of my own work as i can on my car..is taking off the intake manifold something relatively easy to do at home in a day? i never really took apart much under the hood besides putting on a short ram lol


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## Britishav8tor (May 8, 2007)

*Re: (FlexedGTi)*

Flexed - click on the link above that I posted in that thread is a PDF posted by another user that shows in great detail how to do it- it's not hard if you have the space tools and time. I'll post the link later but annoyingly hard to do all this from my iPhone :-/


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Britishav8tor)*

Lots of threads on this issue so at the risk of reposting here is some more info:
Here is a run down of current cleaning and treatment options:
Some very easy/low cost preventative options that can help but will not solve the DI valve deposit problems:
1) Use a low volatility and good cleaning oil (cost: additional $5-$10 per oil change)
2) Seafoam, lubro moly valve cleaner, water, etc. through the intake at every oil change (search for dsire thread for a DIY) (cost: $3.50-$10)
3) Regular italian tuneups (VW claims int the engine patent that running at high rpm for over 20 min will burn off deposits but I think it will only help a little) (cost: gas)
4) Catch can (all kinds of flavors out there) (cost: $30-$300)
5) Fuel injector cleaner in the gas to deal with fuel injector deposits (will not help with intake valve or intake deposits) (cost:$5-$10)
More difficult/expensive but more effective "treatment" options. These also help but do not completely solve the problem:
6) BG induction service or similar (cost: $135-$250?)
7) water/meth injection (cost: ???)
8) remove intake manifold and clean valves every 50k or so (cost: ????)
Some one-time-fix-the-problem options:
1) bypass pcv and route to exhaust (search for saaber2 thread "bypassing pcv") (cost $125-$175)
2) Run a catch can that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?)? may have smell or freezing issues?) (cost: $300?)
3) Run a "down tube" or "road tube" that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?) (cost: $25 -$50)
Here is the PDF for removing the intake mainfold posted by little red fast:


























_Modified by saaber2 at 7:03 PM 8-23-2009_


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## FlexedGTi (Aug 6, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*

thanks guys i think u may have helped my car out alot http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Britishav8tor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Britishav8tor* »_Also if the intake valves look like this what do the exhaust ones look like or the pistons crowns for that matter??? 
 
If you search there is at least one post where they re-ringed the car (an eos at 22k as I remember, form vwtechhouston maybe?) and it had either a description or photos of the valves. It is all interelated. F.e. poor tumble flow from valve deposits = misfiriing and/or incomplete combustion which leads to deposits in other areas. Also certainly there is a "supply" of contaminants coming from the pcv system which could contribute to deposits on fuel injectors etc.

_Quote, originally posted by *Britishav8tor* »_My car has 50K on it and it idles rough. 
 I would suggest cleaning the valves and fuel injectors out first, ideally through removing the intake and mechanical removal of deposits (gm top clean soak plus brushes or walnut gun f.e.). Or BG service, or? Other wise you can stop any new deposits from forming with the bypass but you will always have the previous deposits in there to fight and cause problems. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Britishav8tor* »_Saaber2 - I couldn't find a way to PM you







anyway, here are the mods I'm going to do, do you think I will have any problems with your slash cut system ? I saw someone say the comp took a day to adjust does that seem right ?
2.5 Turbo back exhaust (not 3 they said it allows turbo to spool up too quick) 
GIAC chip 
3" Race style CIA 

I can't see any reason why any of that would cause an issue because you are dumping in pcv goop post cat and post 02 sensor. As a general rule though, I think I would do one thing at a time so that if you have to troubleshoot any problems you have fewer variables to deal with. F.E. if you get a CEL and you only changed one thing it would be much simpler to track down. Perhaps doing all the mods you listed above first, give it a few days and then do the bypass would be a good way to go?


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

What if we used a bottle of Fuel Injector Cleaner the same way Seafoam is recommened? (through a vacuum line) Would that help?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

If you haven't done anything by yourself yet, TRUST ME , removing the intake manifold isn't what you should be starting with....


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_If you haven't done anything by yourself yet, TRUST ME , removing the intake manifold isn't what you should be starting with.... 

He speaks the truth!! I have pulled 25+ of these and still regret that one M10 bolt that holds the intake bracket to the block!! Every time that fights me, and it's the only part of the job that is difficult really. And the throttle body pipe if a PITA to get off/on without risking the cooling fan. You break it and God help you, that is expensive since it houses the cooling fan module!
So do-it-yourselfers beware on this one......not a quick removal the first time!!
-J. Hines


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (jhines_06gli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhines_06gli* »_
He speaks the truth!! I have pulled 25+ of these and still regret that one M10 bolt that holds the intake bracket to the block!! Every time that fights me, and it's the only part of the job that is difficult really. And the throttle body pipe if a PITA to get off/on without risking the cooling fan. You break it and God help you, that is expensive since it houses the cooling fan module!
So do-it-yourselfers beware on this one......not a quick removal the first time!!
-J. Hines









thanks for the tips J. Hines http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

No problem.....got another 2.0T down at work..lol. I have to put the cam and HPFP in an EOS as well as clean/reseal injectors tomorrow. I'll post some pics of valves for your veiwing preasure..lol. 72K miles of easy driving. The cam wore all the way through the plunger and guy did not say a word, I just found the cam adj. fault and diagnosed it. But car has not seen high RPM or it would have saw the fuel pressure as being low, so should be fun to see








-J. Hines
VW has to do something about this!! I'm up to about 1 every 2 weeks with the issue and will get worse as weather gets cooler.....but when/what will they do? God only knows!!


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (jhines_06gli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhines_06gli* »_No problem.....got another 2.0T down at work..lol. I have to put the cam and HPFP in an EOS as well as clean/reseal injectors tomorrow. I'll post some pics of valves for your veiwing preasure..lol. 72K miles of easy driving. The cam wore all the way through the plunger and guy did not say a word, I just found the cam adj. fault and diagnosed it. But car has not seen high RPM or it would have saw the fuel pressure as being low, so should be fun to see








-J. Hines
VW has to do something about this!! I'm up to about 1 every 2 weeks with the issue and will get worse as weather gets cooler.....but when/what will they do? God only knows!!

Bmw is experimenting with a catchcan setup.......... but is going to have service advisors upsell induction services every 15K from new. I bet that VW will do the same......... upsell it as a maintenance item


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

VW uses BG products in most dealerships. The BG product for induction cleaning does absolutely NOTHING!! We experiments and just sat a valve that was gunked up in the straight mixture for 3 days and then removed it......was no softer and no easier to remove, so shooting it in with the engine running at 30PSI is not going to do any better IMO. 
Best bet is to keep up the SeaFoam through the IAT port in the intake manifold. BG Induction service($129.95)......SeaFoam treatment($9.89 plus VagCom to clear CEL). 
I have already talked to Joel at EuroJet(as I will be upgrading to their catchcan upon release) and we got to talking since I am trying to incorporate the catchcan into factory cars that have not been modded at the dealer to help slow the buildup........we came to a possible conclusion of a can that will look factory and could be sold through ther dealers and service with every oil change. But we'll see. My service manager is all for it and we are seeing A LOT more issues with the valves being clogged, and nothing is going to change in the near future









-J. Hines


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## utekineir (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (jhines_06gli)*

With the 2.0t fsi having been in use in europe several years longer than in the us, shouldn't the valve issues be a significant issue over there at this point?
How do they deal with it?


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## tjdaniels24 (Apr 30, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (utekineir)*

Great question! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I don't have an answer, but can't wait to hear it!


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## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (utekineir)*


_Quote, originally posted by *utekineir* »_With the 2.0t fsi having been in use in europe several years longer than in the us, shouldn't the valve issues be a significant issue over there at this point?
How do they deal with it?

I want to know as well.


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## SpeedVision (Jul 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (utekineir)*


_Quote, originally posted by *utekineir* »_With the 2.0t fsi having been in use in europe several years longer than in the us, shouldn't the valve issues be a significant issue over there at this point?
How do they deal with it?

Autobahn!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VBMike P (Jun 25, 2008)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhines_06gli* »_VW uses BG products in most dealerships. The BG product for induction cleaning does absolutely NOTHING!! We experiments and just sat a valve that was gunked up in the straight mixture for 3 days and then removed it......was no softer and no easier to remove, so shooting it in with the engine running at 30PSI is not going to do any better IMO. 



I didn't find seafoam to be any more effective than what you are describing when I cleaned my valves this past week.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (VBMike P)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VBMike P* »_
I didn't find seafoam to be any more effective than what you are describing when I cleaned my valves this past week. 

When cleaning the valves, no....SeaFoam will have no effect unless left soaking for 48 hoursor more. The absolute BEST chemical that could be used here would be GM top engine cleaner....it's getting tough to find the real stuff, but hands down best combustion cleaner out there!!! The SeaFoam is merely a chemical that needs to be used in conjunction with hard driving to prevent valve deposits from continuing to build up in extreme form. Is it going to instantly eat away at the buildup? NO.....just will help to soften it so the rapid airflow over the deposits so they can be broken down and burned up easier by the high flow-rate of air passing over them. 
I myself am contemplating the W/M setup and pointing fogger nozzles directly down the intake ports to see if that spray will help to break this up a little. I drive my car A LOT and it has to be reliable, so I will find a way to slow this process.....although it may be a band-aid, it is a hell of a lot better than what VW has offered us!!








-J. Hines


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (jhines_06gli)*

How would we use "GM top engine cleaner"?


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## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (rippie74)*

I just did the valves on my car over the weekend, that M10 3xsquare bolt is a pain in the ass. I had to weld an extension on my M10 bit just to reach it, and it was still a pain. My valves weren't as bad as I would have expected @50k miles, but it still took me a good 3hrs to clean em'.
What I noticed is that seafoam does absolutely nothing when applied directy to carbon buildup, I used throttle body/intake cleaner, it works much better when sprayed on directly. Seafoam may work well injected into the manifold of a hot engine, I did do it about 5k ago and I think my valves woulda been worse without it. And I do believe that it hits cyls 1 and 4 just as well as 2 and 3. all my valves looked pretty much the same. I plan on doing it right before every oil change now.
One thing I was wondering is why not try injecting ordinary parts store t-body/intake cleaner into the manifold? Supposedly it's O2 sensor safe and I used to spray it directly into the t-body of my NA cars without a problem. One thing that I do know is that it softens carbon Waaaaay better than seafoam, but it evaporates very quickly. Seafoam is kinda oily and tends to stay there, like kerosene.
A tip.....don't bother with that putting the car in 4th and rolling it to open/close the valves, that must be a pain in the ass cuz you have to jack the car up to remove the T-body pipe. A 12pt 19mm socket attached to a long rathet is the way to spin every 4cyl VW motor I've ever had. Right on the crank pully.........easy as ****. 


_Modified by blackvento36 at 9:33 AM 8-25-2009_


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_I just did the valves on my car over the weekend, that M10 3xsquare bolt is a pain in the ass._Modified by blackvento36 at 9:33 AM 8-25-2009_

HAHA!!! Exactly what I meant! Gets eassier with the amount you do though







. 

_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
What I noticed is that seafoam does absolutely nothing when applied directy to carbon buildup, I used throttle body/intake cleaner, it works much better when sprayed on directly. Seafoam may work well injected into the manifold of a hot engine, I did do it about 5k ago and I think my valves woulda been worse without it. And I do believe that it hits cyls 1 and 4 just as well as 2 and 3. all my valves looked pretty much the same. I plan on doing it right before every oil change now.
One thing I was wondering is why not try injecting ordinary parts store t-body/intake cleaner into the manifold? Supposedly it's O2 sensor safe and I used to spray it directly into the t-body of my NA cars without a problem. One thing that I do know is that it softens carbon Waaaaay better than seafoam, but it evaporates very quickly. Seafoam is kinda oily and tends to stay there, like kerosene.
_Modified by blackvento36 at 9:33 AM 8-25-2009_

Yes, you need to use an aerosol cleaner in order to clean the valves. If you were to use SeaFoam, the engine should be warm when intake is removed and all valves have to be shut(loosen intake camshaft) and let them soak for 48+hours. As most people drive their cars daily and this needs to be a 1-day project.....
.......#1- Scrape most stuff off walls/valves
.......#2- Soak walls with cleaner(GM aerosol top engine cleaner or just straight parts/brake cleaner)
.......#3- Let soak 10-15 minutes and then begin scrubbing(I use a golf-club cleaning brush)
.......#4- Repeat step 3 until desired cleanliness.
......#5- I use a bristle pad/embry cloth to get surface a little cleaner
......Then just SeaFoam HOT engine every 5K or so. Also an occasional "Italian Tune" should be done.....this should be part of your normal driving style anyway as you are a German car enthusiast








-J. Hines


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (jhines_06gli)*

One thing that I am noticing over and over again when doing this repair. No matter how bad the buildup is, it's always worse on the top half of the runners than the lower half. This is to blame on the IMRC function and the split-runners in the intake manifold. As to how to fix this issue.......I need the assistance of some of you guys. I know that thos ehwo have been tinkering with this engine for a long time know about every function and querk of the engine.
The IMRC uses the lower half of the runner ALL the time, correct? Hence why it is always much cleaner. But the ONLY time that the IMRC opens up to allow for full-flow through the runner is at WOT. So according to that, to fully clean the vlaves using the SeaFoam treatment, we would have to do it at WOT, correct? Kinda impossible if you ask me.








My question is this, without toying with it yet, I'm wondering what the effects of not having the internals to the IMRC system there would be? If you leave the motor there and leave the end of the flapper, but take the runner dividers out of the intake ports in the head and take the flapper assembly out of the intake manifold, what would the "performance/efficiency" results be? Would we have a horrible running engine at part-throttle since there is increased airflow, would the MPG go to ****?
Just curious.....
-J. Hines


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## VBMike P (Jun 25, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Metalnerd part #Part MNXZ10 makes that m10 triple square a joke to take off


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (blackvento36)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackvento36* »_
One thing I was wondering is why not try injecting ordinary parts store t-body/intake cleaner into the manifold? Supposedly it's O2 sensor safe and I used to spray it directly into the t-body of my NA cars without a problem. One thing that I do know is that it softens carbon Waaaaay better than seafoam, but it evaporates very quickly. Seafoam is kinda oily and tends to stay there, like kerosene.
_Modified by blackvento36 at 9:33 AM 8-25-2009_

I've used that spray cleaner on probably about 40 saab turbos in throttle body and intake and never had any problems and I agree it does melt grime pretty quickly. I did try it on the 2.0FSI, shooting it in downstream of the MAF sensor. I sprayed about 1/2 can then started car and ran it all out, then repeated. I followed it up with seafoaming. Hard to tell which did the most work but idle was much smoother after. I was not very happy with the hard starting from the intake cleaner vs. the smoother application of seafoam and that is why I abandoned the intake cleaner method. But maybe it is more effective than seafoam?
BTW, please keep in mind that if you eliminate the source of the deposits through one of the methods mentioned above, you don't need to worry about these cleaning methods, catch cans, etc.
Back on topic, I suppose a person could remove the air temp sensor, then squirt 1/2 can in through that hole while the engine is off, using the red tube on the can to direct the spray to all runners. Then start the car and hold idle at 2000 rpm until it idles smooth again and burns out all the spray. But be extra, extra, careful to hold onto the red tube so that it doesn't shoot into the intake. I did this once on a saab turbo and it was a royal PITA to get out!
More info. on this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4181184


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

well, tbh, the hard start after the spray treatment is probably caused to the liquids in the piping clogging stuff up after they work off a ton of junk.
ive tried to spray the individual ports with the red tube, but it never quite makes it all the way over. u can however hit the 2 center ones quite well.
so, after realizing that i wasnt hitting half the valves, i sprayed the contents of the can into a cup and sucked it up like i would suck up seafoam... worked WONDERS and barely smoked at all. my idle was buttery too.
deep creap works well like this, but so does just about every other cleaner ive tried so far.
my car idled really well for about 2k miles, but now that im approaching my 3k mile mark, and its time for an oil change, its starting to idle like a tank again.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_my car idled really well for about 2k miles, but now that im approaching my 3k mile mark, and its time for an oil change, its starting to idle like a tank again.

That is exactly what my car used to do, except the poorer idle happened earlier and I also had stumbling starts. Once cleaned it was perfect again for a while. Now that I have the pcv bypass to exhaust, the idle hasn't changed one bit and zero stumbling starts in 2700 miles. I think this is because the source of the problem is solved. 
That is why I encourage people to actually solve the problem rather than treat the symptoms. Bypass to exhaust is one example but perhaps someone can improve on that or come up with something else such as an electric vacuum pump pulling a constant 1.5-3" HG of vacuum and venting it to the atmosphere (ideally without pcv gunk going through the pump). Or better yet have a variable vacuum control built in so that you can increase vacuum to see if it increases power through better ring sealing. I was originally thinking about buying a saab or volvo cruise control vacuum pump which pull 20" hg and can be had form the junkyard for $15 I would guess. The exhaust route was just simpler and I was worried about what would happen if pump failed. Also I would guess those pumps are low volume but didn't get that far into it to find out.
IMO any catch can or other system that allows pcv gunk to get back into the intake tract either pre turbo or in the manifold is a waste of time and money. It's better than nothing, but is a band aid IMO.



_Modified by saaber2 at 8:39 AM 8-25-2009_


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_How would we use "GM top engine cleaner"?


its an aresol cleaner......simply spray the intake valves with it and let them soak. scrub and repeat.
its a great cleaner , available at most any GM/chevy dealer part # 1052626


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (utekineir)*


_Quote, originally posted by *utekineir* »_With the 2.0t fsi having been in use in europe several years longer than in the us, shouldn't the valve issues be a significant issue over there at this point?
How do they deal with it?

Well, the average european consumer has access to high quality fuels (low sulfer) and synthetic oils unlike consumers in the US that get majorly shafted. because of their premium fuel, VW is able to utilize the lean stratified charge technology for the injector cycling (which is what they designed the motor around). supposedly, lean stratified charge significantly reduces the tendency for fuel dilution because the majority of fuel is kept in the center of the combustion chamber instead of sprayed against the cylinder wall. 
the less fuel dilution, the more stable the oil... the more stable the oil, the less crankcase vapors get created and sucked back across the intake valves ala PCV. this is one of the main differences i can come up with for europe vs. north american operation. by no means am i saying that it is not happening in europe though... 




_Modified by rhouse181 at 1:15 PM 8-25-2009_


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

pretty sure ive seen a dude's blog from Germany that showed his valves messed up. also, Johny C's build on audizine. His are not as bad as ours, but they are def craptacular.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

http://www.audizine.com/forum/...02966


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## oldcorradopower (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: (Krieger)*

Ideally when you clean those valve, the finished headmetal should be silky smooth to prevent after cleaning deposits. Ideally you should polish the metal surface a litlle bit.
it prevent oil buildup.
Here what I would do to solve the problem of having to remove the head often and manually clean the intake valves:
1- Use Amsoil-redline-motul oils only (very low noack volatility)
2- Use a catch can
3- Use gas additives like amsoil or other compatible with this kind of fuel injection
And the Funny part...
4- Run my car like a rally car above 4k rpm for more than 4 minutes each week to burn deposit








I think it will do the job, somebody wanna try this recipe ?

_Modified by oldcorradopower at 6:24 AM 8-29-2009_


_Modified by oldcorradopower at 2:46 PM 10-26-2009_


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## Herman Merman (Jul 20, 2009)

Most of what I have found in searches is the discussion of how to clean the deposits or some equipment/steps to reduce the build up, but not alot on what causes the oil vapor in the PCV in the first place. Is there a conclusion as to what causes the oil vapor issues in these motors?
I have read that even with Audi's 'fancy' PCV system they are still struggling with deposits which makes me wonder if the PCV systems on all motors have always been pulling the same amount of oil vapors, but now with DI it is more apparent as there is no fuel to wash the valves and intake runners? Are DI and FI engines pulling the same crap back through the intake, but the FI engines are just better at cleaning up after themselves?







Have the DI engines simply exposed a weakness in the traditionl PCV systems that have probably always been present, or is there something else mechanical with these engines that is causing excessive oil vapor in the crankcase? Now that more and more manufacturers are offering DI engines(both N/A and forced induction), will these valve deposit issues plague them all, or is this unique to certain engine designs like the VW and BMW engines that we know have oil deposit issues?
Thanks!


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: (Herman Merman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Herman Merman* »_ Most of what I have found in searches is the discussion of how to clean the deposits or some equipment/steps to reduce the build up, but not alot on what causes the oil vapor in the PCV in the first place. Is there a conclusion as to what causes the oil vapor issues in these motors?
I have read that even with Audi's 'fancy' PCV system they are still struggling with deposits which makes me wonder if the PCV systems on all motors have always been pulling the same amount of oil vapors, but now with DI it is more apparent as there is no fuel to wash the valves and intake runners? Are DI and FI engines pulling the same crap back through the intake, but the FI engines are just better at cleaning up after themselves?







Have the DI engines simply exposed a weakness in the traditionl PCV systems that have probably always been present, or is there something else mechanical with these engines that is causing excessive oil vapor in the crankcase? Now that more and more manufacturers are offering DI engines(both N/A and forced induction), will these valve deposit issues plague them all, or is this unique to certain engine designs like the VW and BMW engines that we know have oil deposit issues?
Thanks!









Having taken quite a number of turbo motors apart, in practically every motor I've always found quite a bit of oil in the intake track. My 944 Turbo's intake pipes would drip with oil after I yanked em out. More oil in the crankcase air and intake track is a natural consequence of positive intake pressure, and some oil seeps out of the turbo itself. The issue, as stated over and over, is there is no fuel to wash all this crap out of the the intake when its pumped back in by the PCV system. My 944T never had this sort of buildup on the intake valves, nor have the 1.8T's I've seen disassembled, nor have older Callaway turbo Rabbits/Scirocco's I've built and owned, or the 2000 S4 I had. Read the VW patents on FSI, they know its a problem, but, so far as far as I know, the factory hasn't done anything to address this now that long term issues are becoming obvious.
In terms of addressing it, I suspect the usual pattern from VW, they will ignore this as long as possible, deny its a problem, until either a class action is launched, enough techs complain, or some public exposure embarrasses them to the point where they have to address it. One thing on VW's side is that the buildup generally isn't an issue until after the warranty is expired, meaning the cost of fixing it is on the owner. The decision is probably totally economic to them - what's cheaper, ignoring it and just having techs clean the engines as needed (at customer expense, damaging customer loyalty), or being proactive and perhaps releasing some sort of factory catch can solution of their own to reduce buildup. One has to wonder what the future of DI really is given these sorts of long term issues. Seems to me the Motronic FI system on the 1.8T's wasn't so bad after all!


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## Herman Merman (Jul 20, 2009)

*Re: (bostonaudi1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bostonaudi1* »_
Having taken quite a number of turbo motors apart, in practically every motor I've always found quite a bit of oil in the intake track. My 944 Turbo's intake pipes would drip with oil after I yanked em out. More oil in the crankcase air and intake track is a natural consequence of positive intake pressure, and some oil seeps out of the turbo itself. 


With this being the case, then is the conclusion that there is nothing 'wrong' with the current PCV system for its intended purpose correct? Meaning that this system isn't somehow pulling more oil vapor that other PCV systems would, it simply does not have the fuel to clean the intake and valves? 
I guess the point of my questions has been to understand if this is a VW design error (whether it be the PCV or engine related), or is this simply a side effect of DI that all manufactures are going to have problems with and everyone is going to be hunting for a solution for their DI motors? From your thoughts, it appears to be a DI related issue that every manufacturer will need to address.


_Modified by Herman Merman at 4:13 PM 8-30-2009_


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: (Herman Merman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Herman Merman* »_
With this being the case, then is the conclusion that there is nothing 'wrong' with the current PCV system for its intended purpose correct? Meaning that this system isn't somehow pulling more oil vapor that other PCV systems would, it simply does not have the fuel to clean the intake and valves? 
I guess the point of my questions has been to understand if this is a VW design error (whether it be the PCV or engine related), or is this simply a side effect of DI that all manufactures are going to have problems with and everyone is going to be hunting for a solution for their DI motors? From your thoughts, it appears to be a DI related issue that every manufacturer will need to address.

Its not a design error, they *knew* this was going to be an issue, but decided to march forward anyhow. My guess is they thought the gains in efficiency and lower pollution outweighed the risks. I think all companies using direct injection will have to deal with this and engineer some sort of solution. It may be periodic intake cleaning, water injection, catch can, who knows. The bottom line is that these engines are higher maintenance than regular FI motors. I think the question then becomes did VW make the right decision? I seem to recall 1.8T's got great fuel mileage and ran pretty clean. A 1.8T bumped to 2.0 probably wouldn't take a big hit in mpg given equivalent boost pressure etc. From looking at the posted pictures of intakes I'm a bit concerned what mine is going to look like at 80k since I run chipped, and higher boost pressure is only going to make the situation worse over time.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: Cleaning intake valves deposits (vweosdriver)*

Has anyone ever tried this AMsoil powerfoam stuff?
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/apf.aspx
Someone mentioned it on BITOG. I suppose a person could shoot it in from the temp sensor hole and foam the crap out of everything. Who is brave enough to try it?
"Run engine to normal operating temperature and remove air cleaner assembly. While engine is running, spray entire can of foam directly into intake. Turn off engine and allow to sit for 5-10 minutes. Restart engine and drive to blow out deposits."


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

ill see if i cant find a dealer near me to sell me a can and ill let u know how it turns out.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (Krieger)*

It's an inherent flaw with direct injection. I recall my automotive technology teacher talking about carbon buildup and that was 11 years ago!!!
P.s. porsche and BMW and having the same issues with direct injection. We are not alone. Bmw's solution is to upsell induction services every 15k from new via customer pay.......


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (Krieger)*

Found an old post by Terry Dyson, ultra-oil Guru, on the amsoil power foam. ALso note that he says don't use water for the intake cleaning and change your oil immediately after the cleaning (this is also repeated on other posts of his).
"Toysrme, I appreciate the sharing of your pix and opinions. I have been professionally repairing engines and interpeting oil analysis for a long time so I am speaking from BOTH of those points of view when I give an opinion. BTW do you have oil analysis results for the Seafoam treated engines to share as well as the pix ?
LarryL, I prefer the Auto-RX for just the reason that it is slow, it is SAFE, and deep cleaning. It was designed to be used "in-situ" periodically/methodically in the OLD oil with a fresh filter to limit the impact of the unit being out of service or costing an extra oil change. MOST harsh high flash solvents will clean surface stuff and stop because they flash off. They also will react with or strip the EP/AW coatings off the contact areas in the engine and damage the oil itself. Inert Auto-RX does not exhibit any of those harmful attributes by design.
Shaman, Contaminants and minerals in water will abrade and corrode metals, the lubricants added to Seafoam would inhibit the corrosive effect, they would have no effect on the abrasion wear.
Yes, Amsoil Powerfoam is a great product and seems to have better "stick/adhearance" in an intake you want to clean than say lighter less sticky sprays like Seafoam deep creep. All these kind of products destroy the host motor oil chemistry."


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## rottenspam (Apr 7, 2008)

I'd like to point out that while a lot of car manufactures are having issues with carbon build up on the intake vales of a direct injection engine. Not everyone is having problems to the extent we are. Apparently Toyota Direct Injection engines aren't suffering from carbon build up problems because Toyota wisely (in retrospect) choose to also put a port injector in their direct injection engines. That way they occasionally squirt fuel into then intake tract to clean up the deposits on the intake valves/tract. It seems like this maybe a workable solution is having a hybrid DI/FI engine. 
With that said, since I'm aware carbon build up is an issue with these engines, and the only solution so far seems to be to have the engine cleaned every 30-60K miles, I guess I'll have to budget it in as a maintaince expense of owing that sweet 2.0T. I still like the engine a lot, its smooth torquy, gets good gas milage. Just needs stage 1 from the factory


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## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: (rottenspam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rottenspam* »_
With that said, since I'm aware carbon build up is an issue with these engines, and the only solution so far seems to be to have the engine cleaned every 30-60K miles, I guess I'll have to budget it in as a maintaince expense of owing that sweet 2.0T. I still like the engine a lot, its smooth torquy, gets good gas milage. Just needs stage 1 from the factory

I think that is the best idea. I don't know where to get seafoam locally, so i might just wait till i get to 100k km and get the intake valves cleaned.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malaco0219* »_
I think that is the best idea. I don't know where to get seafoam locally, so i might just wait till i get to 100k km and get the intake valves cleaned.

don't u guys have wallyworld aka walmart in maple leaf country? I've also scene it at autozone which is just a well stocked parts store chain here in nv.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (rottenspam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rottenspam* »_...and the only solution so far seems to be to have the engine cleaned every 30-60K miles...

Huh?
Some very easy/low cost preventative options that can help but will not solve the DI valve deposit problems:
1) Use a low volatility and good cleaning oil (cost: additional $5-$10 per oil change)
2) Seafoam, lubro moly valve cleaner, water, etc. through the intake at every oil change (search for dsire thread for a DIY) (cost: $3.50-$10)
3) Regular italian tuneups (VW claims int the engine patent that running at high rpm for over 20 min will burn off deposits but I think it will only help a little) (cost: gas)
4) Catch can (all kinds of flavors out there) (cost: $30-$300)
5) Fuel injector cleaner in the gas to deal with fuel injector deposits (will not help with intake valve or intake deposits) (cost:$5-$10)
More difficult/expensive but more effective "treatment" options. These also help but do not completely solve the problem:
6) BG induction service or similar (cost: $135-$250?)
7) water/meth injection (cost: ???)
8) remove intake manifold and clean valves every 50k or so (cost: ????)
Some one-time-fix-the-problem options:
1) bypass pcv and route to exhaust (search for saaber2 thread "bypassing pcv") (cost $125-$175)
2) Run a catch can that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?)? may have smell or freezing issues?) (cost: $300?)
3) Run a "down tube" or "road tube" that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?) (cost: $25 -$50)


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## rottenspam (Apr 7, 2008)

*Re: (saaber2)*

Yeah I've read about all of those as well, and I'll probably try the sea-foam myself. 
I'm not sure one-time-fix-the-problem options really will fix the problem, only time will tell on these options. 
1) I've seen the run the PCV valve bypass option, but I'm not sure about the long term implications on this one. Of course this assumes that the PCV is the only source of oil coming into the intake track. I've had enough turbo cars over the years to see that turbo's themselves, and other sources can still pump in oil to the intake (EGR 2.0T doesn't have this correct?). Also venting the PCV to the exhaust, not sure about what this will do to the catalytic converters or the cars ability to pass emission testing. Seen plenty of oil burners clog their cats. I'll bet venting the PCV to the exhaust might do the same overtime, better to vent it to the atmosphere. Only time will tell if this works well, but I totally agree the PCV is probably the major source of oil into the intake, and figuring out how to handle it is key.
2) seen plenty of catch cans, works well for catching a large amount of oil, but I'm not sure it will catch all carbon vapors. I'll probably due this one once my warranty is up. I think this would slow down the problem to the point that the engine will die from other reasons before carbon cokes it up.
3) this one seems like a good option too avoids my cat concerns with #1, but I still worry that it won't address non-PCV sources of oil vapor. I think a catch can is our best bet but even that can't eliminate 100% of the sources of vapors carbon. 
I think these are all good options however to at least slow down the carbon build up problem, I'm not sure they'll eliminate the problem....


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (rottenspam)*

The route to exhaust method is done POST cat.....
Smog wise the route to exhaust setup is not legal but 30 minutes pre inspection time can fix that. 
The pcv is the culprit on the 2.0t the carbon is from the oil present in the intake system hitting the hot intake valves. 
If you plan on waiting until the factory 4/50 is up to adress the issue you better plan on pulling the intake because it way to late......


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_The route to exhaust method is done POST cat.....
Smog wise the route to exhaust setup is not legal but 30 minutes pre inspection time can fix that. 
The pcv is the culprit on the 2.0t the carbon is from the oil present in the intake system hitting the hot intake valves. 
If you plan on waiting until the factory 4/50 is up to adress the issue you better plan on pulling the intake because it way to late......

If you walk into a dealer and tell them you want the intake cleaned under warranty bout the only thing you're gonna hear is loud laughing - and a "don't hit your head on the door on the way out". Of course if they've diagnosed poor running due to carbon buildup, that's another thing, but as preventive maintenance, good luck.


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## rottenspam (Apr 7, 2008)

*Re: (bostonaudi1)*

Yeah, VW's stance on most warrenty items, is you can pull the repair out of my cold dead hand!
My car has 16K miles on it and I suspect that the intake track probably already has significant carbon build up (as the engine has "consumed about 2 qts of oil". Heck I'd bet the oil consumption problem most people are seeing is the PCV injecting the "missing" oil into the intake. I'm just debating if its too late to do a whole lot about it and just factor in the cost of an engine cleaning, or dump the car at the end of the lease. The new 2.0 TSI seems to have the carbon build up problem too or so folks are reporting... Damn its a nice engine, they need to figure this out.
BTW after doing a lot of reading around the net (for what its worth), it seems that the PCV is probably the largest source of intake oil, but the turbo's and the seals around the valve stems leak oil as well also contributing to carbon build up. Seems there is no way short of the toyota solution to include a port fuel injector for intake cleaning to completely eliminate the problem. 
I suspect that doing a pcv vent to atmosphere will make the carbon build up problem slow enough that something in the engine will fail before its choked up with carbon. 
BTW VW TDI's seem very susceptible to this problem. I'd exepect a good intake cleaning will be several hundred..... Kinda like changing the oil on the DSG unless I do it myself.


_Modified by rottenspam at 5:34 PM 9-2-2009_


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (bostonaudi1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bostonaudi1* »_
If you walk into a dealer and tell them you want the intake cleaned under warranty bout the only thing you're gonna hear is loud laughing - and a "don't hit your head on the door on the way out". Of course if they've diagnosed poor running due to carbon buildup, that's another thing, but as preventive maintenance, good luck.


kinda stating the obvious......i dont follow your point


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## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
kinda stating the obvious......i dont follow your point









"If you plan on waiting until the factory 4/50 is up to adress the issue you better plan on pulling the intake because it way to late......"
I was under the impression you were advising to get this cleaned under warranty as maintenance, if not, my bad.


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (bostonaudi1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bostonaudi1* »_
"If you plan on waiting until the factory 4/50 is up to adress the issue you better plan on pulling the intake because it way to late......"
I was under the impression you were advising to get this cleaned under warranty as maintenance, if not, my bad.

IIRC he said he was going to wait until his 4/50 factory warranty was up to run a catch can or switch to a exhaust pcv bypass.......
IMHO if he waits that long(50K) there will already be a considerable amount of carbon where its much to late to run a catch can with intent of prevention. 
You are correct unless there is a idle or rough run condition......the dealer charges for a induction service for sure


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## oldcorradopower (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

Tried the Wynns Powercharge last week
Nice improvement after only 200-300 km on highway cruising. did some 5-6k rpm rides also.
This stuff really works http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
dont have pictures of my intake right now but I feel the car is definetely better now.


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## Malaco0219 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RABIDRABBIT1983* »_
don't u guys have wallyworld aka walmart in maple leaf country? I've also scene it at autozone which is just a well stocked parts store chain here in nv. 

never seen it at wall mart. a lot of people look at me and get confused when i ask for seafoam


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (Malaco0219)*

Go to your local "mom & pop autoparts store" & ask for "Seafoam" or try NAPA.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (rippie74)*

hey guys, buy soem b-12 chemtool.
its a fuel additive that cleans the hell outta ur valves. I injected it via my IAT port and it worked wonders.
AND its like 2 bucks for a bottle bigger than seafoam. PLUS, no smoke or bad smells. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
*just be warned tho*, dont use alot, all the time, cuz u could damage ur cat. i just used like 1/4 of a cup right before i changed my oil to M1. 
BUT now that i have no cat, as soon as i go to change my oil, im gonna use half a bottle.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (Krieger)*

How do you know it worked "wonders"?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_How do you know it worked "wonders"?

He's been talking to..."Alice"....


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*Re: (rippie74)*

cuz my engine is pulling much harder than before, my engine doesnt vibrate as bad, and my engine no longer sounds like a deisel, but more like a normal old DI engine straight off the showroom. (omg, the new A4s are sexy... too bad they arent hatch backs)
so, i cant "officially" prove it was amazing, but come on, if its $2 for a bottle much larger than an $8.75 bottle of seafoam, and its sole purpous is to clean fuel systems and intake valves, i think it should be able to do just as good a job at a fraction of the cost.
im still gonna see if i cant get in there and see how she looks now, but if im venting to atmosphere, pkus doing this regularly, i dont see why it wouldnt help a little bit at a time with the small stuff.


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## SocksA3 (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: (Krieger)*


_Quote »_hey guys, buy soem b-12 chemtool.
its a fuel additive that cleans the hell outta ur valves. I injected it via my IAT port and it worked wonders.


The problem with fuel additives is that these cars are direct injected. The additive does not come in contact with the valves. That is why this is happeneing in the first place. In a normal fuel injected vehicle the fuel helps keep the vavles clean. Additives in the fuel will definitely help with the injectors tho.


_Modified by SocksA3 at 10:12 AM 10/7/2009_


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (SocksA3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SocksA3* »_The problem with fuel additives is that these cars are direct injected. The additive does not come in contact with the valves. That is why this is happeneing in the first place. In a normal fuel injected vehicle the fuel helps keep the vavles clean. Additives in the fuel will definitely help with the injectors tho

He is saying he pulled it in thorugh the intake temp port. Used this way it does hit the valves directly. Search for seafoaming or dsire to find DIY methods.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*

I added _Lucas Fuel System Treatment _to the tank on my bike & my GTI last week. I added seafoam to my GTI's tank 2 weeks ago. Injector clean-up @ 25K miles. I'll do the vaccuum line cleaning method after my catch can goes in today.


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## seymore15074 (Jul 23, 2007)

I have noticed a little bit of oil in my boost line to the gauge. I suspect it relates to this issue. Does that sound plausible?


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## SocksA3 (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote »_He is saying he pulled it in thorugh the intake temp port. Used this way it does hit the valves directly. Search for seafoaming or dsire to find DIY methods.

HAHA I am dumb and posted that before coffee. I didnt read the part about where he injected it. I have been using seafoam for years on pretty much everything. It wasn't till I stumbled across this post that I realised how much of a potential issue this could be with our cars...A good friend of mine works for BG I get those treatments done pretty much any time i want N/C. I guess I will have to start doing it more often. Even considering pulling intake off to take a look around.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (seymore15074)*


_Quote, originally posted by *seymore15074* »_I have noticed a little bit of oil in my boost line to the gauge. I suspect it relates to this issue. Does that sound plausible?

Yea I also have some burnt black stuff in my boost gauge line right where the tap is. I installed a _Stage 2 catch can _today. We'll see how that works


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I plan on taking off my manifold and cleaning my valves. I have a few quick question:
1) Is the intake mani gasket one time use? Mine is 17k miles old.
2) If an injector comes off with the mani, do I really need to replace the teflon seal and blue o rings?


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## SocksA3 (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (staulkor)*

I did some probing last night with a scope and took some video of the valves. Since I had to go into the IAT port I could only get to cylinder 2 and 3 easily. Both were pretty caked with crap but not as bad as others I have seen on here (40k miles). After that I went ahead and did a seafoam treatment, ran the car and then checked again. After the treatment and after figuring out why the car went into limp mode lol (seafoam caused misfires and put car in limp mode. Cleared the faults and all good again) I went back in the with scope and could see some definate improvement. There were newly exposed shiny spots on the valves for 2 and 3. Like I said can't get to 1 and 4


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (SocksA3)*

SocksA3, excellent info! Thanks for posting that. Any chance you can post those videos on photobucket or you tube? Would love to see that.
Also, I was wondering how using air intake /throttle body cleaner, available in a spray can from any auto parts store would work. Just used it last night on a non DI BMW engine and it worked wonders to clean up the throttle body and idle control valve, etc. 
A guy could use that throttle body cleaner can (with the little red tube attached) and angle the spray to all the valves via the intake air temp port i would think. Just be sure to tape the tube onto the spray head so it doesn't shoot off into the engine (done that before on a saab!). I think you would spray it in with the engine off. Then restart and burn everything out and then repeat. Have to hold throttle to floor to restart and give a bit of rpm (1500-2000 or so) to burn everything off. Have done this on many, many saab turbos spraying in at throttle body and it works wonders on those. 
I would be very interested to see if this is effective via the boroscope video. I wonder if it would work better than seafoam? Thanks again for posting. Finally some confirmation that seafoaming works!!!!! (although those of us who have been doing it already know that


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## SocksA3 (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (saaber2)*

I actually didn't record any before pictures because I was still screwing with how everything worked. That after video I will have to pull off the scope and upload which I will try and do this weekend. I will also do this again for my next oil change and will be adding a catch can also so I can monitor how things improve over time. I love toys...


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## hayejay (Jun 16, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (SocksA3)*

great info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## A3Danimal (Feb 8, 2006)

*Vacuum Tube?*

Which vacuum tube are you guys spraying the Seafoam in through?

TIA


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## rdjr74 (Jun 26, 2007)

Like to know this too. Maybe a pic as well. Last night I just threw a bottle of this in my tank. I may do the vac tube next bottle.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Wow, we've learned a lot since this old thread. I can confirm that seafoaming ONLY touches the soft, newer deposits, often called the "solubles". It doesn't touch the baked on deposits which are the main part of the problem. I've been testing how fast the deposits form and what they look like and the deposits can get baked on in a very short period of time (even one highway trip can bake them on). Basically the seafoam buys you very little. It even does a poor job with the easier to remove solubles and doesn't touch the heart of the problem.


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## A3Danimal (Feb 8, 2006)

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I went to a BG shop today and they basically want to spray the BG in through the intake just below the engine cover. I'm guessing this is pre-TB? Anyone know of a better place?


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## rdjr74 (Jun 26, 2007)

What I've really learned from the past four years on this forum is if you want clean you must invest in elbow grease. ( scrubbing the head, hehe)

But hell, what the heck, I'll throw in a little seafoam in the meantime.


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## A3Danimal (Feb 8, 2006)

This is where the BG tech wants to spray the cleaner. Pre-TB I believe?











But I'm thinking A or B would be better? Any input from you guys?


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

In your second picture, the IAT is right below the "B". Remove the T30 and take it out, but leave it connected to avoid a light for it. And inject through there using a tight-seling nozzle or a hose that fits tightly into the hole.


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## A3Danimal (Feb 8, 2006)

So take off the housing for that sensor below the B, but leave the sensor connected. Gotcha


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