# Questions about TT-RS on track!



## Iqbad (Oct 14, 2017)

So I have recently sold my M3 E46 that I used for weekend drives and trackdays. I owned it for about 3.5 years and upgraded it each winter to make it better on track. In the end it had 265 CUP 2 all around, Öhlins suspension, Porsche cayman brakes, brake cooling etc etc. It worked very well on track and on street (with decreased setting on the shocks).

So now I’m looking for a replacement. The new car should be faster and will be used for the same type of driving. I have recently started to think about the TT-RS from 2009->. Could you guys help me with my questions below?

1. Brakes and cooling
So I understand the TT-RS has 370mm brakes in the front, judging from the weight I would say that this should be sufficient with the correct pads but I read that many people have problems with overheating brakes. The issue might be poor circulation of air and general cooling of the brakes. Is it possible to build brake cooling so you can use the stock brakes (with updated pads and fluid of course) or is a BBK needed?

2. Bigger low cost brakes?
Are there any cost effective ways to get maybe 380mm rotors, maybe by using some rotor from another audi?

3. Camber
What is the camber gain on these cars, how much camber will you need to run CUP2 and get even wear? I understand that you can only get about 1.5-1.7 degrees with stock camber plates, so is it necessary to purchase camber plates for track driving? What about in the rear, do you need adjustable camber cross members for track driving?

4. Understeer
How is the TT-RS on track? Will it understeer? Can you straighten it out by applying throttle or will it just push more on the fronts?

5. Improvements?
I have read that it is common to change to a stiffer rear sway bar for better rotation and also to upgrade the Haldex software for more rear bias (?). Are there other things you should fix to make the car better on track?

6. General cooling vs tuning
I see that you can quite easily tune the engine to around 400hp, how does the oil and engine cooling handle this on track? Do you need supporting modes to be able to run with this power on track?

Any input or replies are welcome!

Best regards, Eric


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## Vegas-RoadsTTer (Mar 17, 2013)

*Some considerations*

I can't answer your track specifics but here is some general information. The Mk 2 TTRS was sold in north America in 2012 and 2013 only. When released, it was praised by most professional reviewers as the best bang for the buck sports car available. According to Car & Driver Lightning Lap times, the TTRS was faster on the track than the 2009 V-8 M3, and many Porsches costing almost twice as much. In fact it was almost as fast as the V-8 version of the Audi R8.

I'm wondering if you are aware than the TTRS is far more scarce and expensive than your present M3? You will likely have to search nationwide to get the TTRS you want and it will likely be more expensive than you expected. A quick national check on cars.com shows that the cheapest TTRS have about 65k miles and are selling in the mid-30s.

The Lightning Lap TTRS times were achieved with the stock brakes. There was a brake recall on the TTRS but many who track the car feel that aftermarket upgrades are needed.


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## Iqbad (Oct 14, 2017)

Thanks for your reply! 

I am located in Sweden so the TT-RS has been sold for a bit longer here, I can also buy cars easily from Germany so there are for sure care available. The price level of a TT-RS starts maybe 5KUSD higher than I sold my M3 for so it is not so bad.


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

Iqbad said:


> So I have recently sold my M3 E46 that I used for weekend drives and trackdays. I owned it for about 3.5 years and upgraded it each winter to make it better on track. In the end it had 265 CUP 2 all around, Öhlins suspension, Porsche cayman brakes, brake cooling etc etc. It worked very well on track and on street (with decreased setting on the shocks).
> 
> So now I’m looking for a replacement. The new car should be faster and will be used for the same type of driving. I have recently started to think about the TT-RS from 2009->. Could you guys help me with my questions below?
> 
> ...


Hej Eric,

since I track my cars a lot and actually use a TT-RS 8J for track, I can answer your questions. I think. I hope... 

1. You can run the OEM caliper but it is in no case possible to run the OEM discs & pads. BBK is not necessary, but an upgrade of disks (best: 2-part Carbopad) and pads (Endless, best MA46b, ME-22 also possible) is obligatory. With this the brakes are firm & stable and you can use the OEM caliper. Additional air helps but is hard to lead it to the brakes. But all other tries (e. g. Audi RS4 or R8 parts) are good for some posing on the McDonalds car park, not to go really hard on track. O. K., maybe if you drive like your Granma...  

2. look 1.

3. I am running -3° 20' in front and -2° 10' rear. Less than the camber I have in front doesn't avoid understeer enough. So, yes, you need adjustable camber plates. Cup2 tires I would not recommend, I used one set of them and their flank is too weak for the TT. I had a rupture of the flank in 3 of 4 tires. You got to remember how much weight you have on the front axle. My experience says that tires with stiff flank like Toyo Proxes R888R or Nankang AR-1 (only the 2017 spec!) work very good on the TT-RS. Direzzas and Trofeo R as well but they are twice the price of the Toyos or Nankangs. If that doesn't matter, go with the Dunlop Direzza 03G. Best.

4. Yes, you will have understeer. With camber, tire pressure and a well alligned coil kit you can work against it. But you'll never skip it totally. You got to be aware of this. Power understeer can be avoided, but the turn-in understeer will never go away completely. Otherwise you are too slow. 

5. Yes, a Haldex competition system with permanent 50:50 allocation of motor power will help in addition to the other things discussed under 4. Getting weight out of the car is the next thing. 

6. I have a stage 2 (400 HP) and can say that there is no problem as long as the outside temperatures are below 20° C. At higher temperatures you sometimes recognize a bit loss of power if we talk about the last 5%. Some of that you can handle by using 102 ROZ fuel. But at really high temperatures the car will overheat after a while (on Nordschleife after 3 laps) and cut power off. Some guys mount additional air coolers. But this also has an end somewhere. The concept of the car is too bad in itself if we are talking about temperature management.

But all in all it is a funny and very fast track car once you have the settings you need. Just have a look into my Youtube Channel (Sig.) or visit my "Nordschleife" thread here and see videos of Spa and Nordschleife to get an idea.  The specs are always in the descriptions of the vids.

Cheers.
Markus


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## Iqbad (Oct 14, 2017)

TheMaOdy66 said:


> Hej Eric,
> 
> since I track my cars a lot and actually use a TT-RS 8J for track, I can answer your questions. I think. I hope...
> 
> ...


Hi Markus, many thanks for your reply! Nice to hear from someone that has real experience on track with the TT-RS. I have checked out some of your videos and also your build thread. You have some impressive pace on the ring! I am still a bit nervous of understeer and how the car will behave going out from turns, my old M3 was just perfect in these conditions and you could make the car neutral by applying more throttle. What is your general feeling, will a TT-RS be significantly faster than a M3 E46 on track, or are the differences not so large? 

best regards, Eric


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

Iqbad said:


> Hi Markus, many thanks for your reply! Nice to hear from someone that has real experience on track with the TT-RS. I have checked out some of your videos and also your build thread. You have some impressive pace on the ring! I am still a bit nervous of understeer and how the car will behave going out from turns, my old M3 was just perfect in these conditions and you could make the car neutral by applying more throttle. What is your general feeling, will a TT-RS be significantly faster than a M3 E46 on track, or are the differences not so large?
> 
> best regards, Eric


Hi Eric,

you're welcome 

The advantage the TT-RS will give you compared to the M3E46 is the possible increase of power.
The M3E46 is limited @ 360/370 HP and if you want to get more, the investement is huge as a
new Golf R or impossible. The TT-RS is easily brought to 400 HP (like mine, only Software, 800 €)
and with an investment of around 5.000 € to nearly 500 HP.

Due to the concept the TT-RS will never drive like the M3. The M3 is perfectly balanced and you are
able to drive him by throttle cause of the RWD. This is not possible with the TT-RS cause it is FWD
for 90 % and AWD only if there is loss of contact in the front. Plus weight balance 63 : 37.

But with a Haldex-Controller and a special allignement and choice of tire pressure you can bring it
near to the behaviour of a RWD car. Not exactly but near. Question is if this is fast. Changing your
driving style a bit might be more helpful. The TT-RS is very fast anyway.

The so called 'Supertest' of the best sportscar magazine in Germany regularly includes a lap on The 
Ring, always done by the same semi-pro and with completely stock cars on street tires. Stock M3E46 
did an 8:22, stock TT-RS 8J did an 8:09. This shows that the bases of both cars are good, the TT-RS 
a bit better. And this stays the same if you begin to modify the cars in a similar way. 

I only know 2 M3 E46 (both highly modified) that are hardly able to go nearly the speed on The Ring 
that I can go with the TT-RS. TT-RSs that are able to go faster than me are a lot. All with lots more
power and more modfied. But you know, on The Ring it's all about experience and lap count. So it's 
really hard to say. Anyway it will be a very very big change for you. And the understeer will not be 
completely avoidable. Near to the limit of corner speed you will always recognize some. But this I
even recognized in a 991 Carrera at the limit. 

And yes, there is power understeer out of curves if you go on throttle too early. One example you find
here: https://youtu.be/hvS21stTKCA?t=27s But this was the only time it happened to me. Sometimes
you got to learn the hard way.  Today my allignement is much better and I use the better tire. 

I came from a Golf VII R to the TT-RS and it took me a complete season (April to September) to find
out how to make the TT-RS as drivable as the Golf R was. Settings, allignement, tire pressures, tires 
as such, brake pads, steering in points, apex speeds, brake points. Everything was to learn new and 
there were days I was near distress. In Mai/June I wanted to sell it. But now it all works and I really 
love the car.


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

Eric, for more information and for you to compare the differences in driving and driving
style of two cars with totally different concepts I doubled up my record laps on The Ring
for the BtG layout and the industry-lap layout with the PBs of my friend Dag in his 991.1
Carrera. I think more different concepts can't be. See for yourself how different the cars
behave and how even fast they are. Maybe it helps... 

BtG: 






Industry-Lap:


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## Iqbad (Oct 14, 2017)

Markus, thanks again for your reply and great input! 

Could you elaborate a bit on the TT-RS brakes, are the original discs of very poor quality and this causes them to warp? I have read lately of many issues with stock brakes on RS3:s and TT-RS. The brake discs that you have, carbopad, are they in stock size or are they larger so you need a bracket to move the caliper? Could you tell me the approximate cost for a pair of front discs from carbopad? 

Thanks!


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

Iqbad said:


> Markus, thanks again for your reply and great input!
> 
> Could you elaborate a bit on the TT-RS brakes, are the original discs of very poor quality and this causes them to warp? I have read lately of many issues with stock brakes on RS3:s and TT-RS. The brake discs that you have, carbopad, are they in stock size or are they larger so you need a bracket to move the caliper? Could you tell me the approximate cost for a pair of front discs from carbopad?
> 
> Thanks!


Again you're welcome, Eric.

The Carbopad discs are 370 x 32 mm, what is hardly the same as OEM. They fit p&p. Cost is (in Germany) 1.250 € incl. VAT.
Lots of TT-RS (and RS3 drivers) over years and years tested other combinations. In the end always came out that the
Carbopad/Endless combination was the only one that worked very good. Looking for initial bite, heatresistance and durability.

Yes, the issues with RS3 & TT-RS brakes are all about discs (main) and pads (minor). The discs were the problem already 
in the former RS3 (8P) and TT-RS (8J). Now with the new series the issues are all the same...
But the caliper is absolutely o. K. and usable. Changing discs, pads and fluid (with stainless lines) makes a very good brake. 
A bit more of air is helpful as well. And up to my speed level all works good and stable.


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## ICETER (Jan 19, 2017)

Hi everybody,

very interesting thread, as im also trying to improve the handling of my TTRS.
If is not to late, maybe I can contribute something...
Ive also done a few mods, which (most of them Moady mentioned before) really removes most of the downsides of the OEM settings.
With the correct setting, you are able to get a very tail happy behavior, and the rear pushes out of corners.
If you worry about weight distribution, you could go with a manual. My RS (MT) is about 54:46 F/B (filled up, with me in it).
The Question is, will this make you faster on track? I think probably not...but you can feel the MT is less nose heavy.

One thing, which in my opinion is very underrated, is the Haldex coupling.
There are a lot of myths about its performance.
The 4th generation is a very clever thing, which uses mainly the throttle position, engine torque and the steering angle to engage.
No Slip is needed. Because its all controlled electronically, the performance really depends on the software.
And VAG is well known for a very safe, but bulletproof setup.
But you can change this behavior with a competition/performance controller. You can set its behavior "dumb" (keeping the Haldex engaged while the rears are slipping).
Performance-wise this is an key advantage over the Torsen system, which will always transfer torque to the wheels with more traction.

The only thing that im missing on the TTRS (also on most Torsen Quattros), is a mechanical rear LSD.
It would be one of my first mods i would do, if it would be available for the TTRS...
I hope this was helpful...

And sorry for my bad English....

Cheers.

@Maody: its good to see that there are still Audi owners who care about handling, and not only about Engine power.
Like your vids!


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

ICETER said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> very interesting thread, as im also trying to improve the handling of my TTRS.
> If is not to late, maybe I can contribute something...
> ...


Kind thanks, buddy!  It is my pleasure if it's yours to watch the vids. :thumbup:

And another thanks for your oppinion of the Haldex Controller. I think this will be on of 
the updates I have to keep in mind.

Over the winter my TT will lose a bit weight by getting new seats in front (Recaro SPG XL) and skipping seats in the
rear. Also it will get 4 point belts and all the mods I did up to today will be made street legal (TÜV). I am very keen
to feel the driving with the new eats and belts. Now I have to hold myself at the steering wheel and the left foot only
has to catch my weight. Should be better afterwards... 

And a Haldex Controller is the next thing to do when I reach the point that further improvement seems impossible 
without. But if you look to the following video (that shows lap 2 of the posted ones in my other thread from behind) 
you see the ass of the TT move quite nice already.


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## devid1985 (Nov 27, 2017)

Guys, i wanted to ask with a new discussion if with the TTRS disks with final tag K have solved the various problems of breaks.


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

devid1985 said:


> Guys, i wanted to ask with a new discussion if with the TTRS disks with final tag K have solved the various problems of breaks.


Part No: 8J 0615301 K - these are discs available since early 2016. None of the problems are solved.

And if you ask for my oppinion they won't be solved for the TT MK II (8J). Maybe they will solve them
for the MK III (8S), but not for the "old" 8J. You got to use aftermarket material if you want to track
the car seriously.


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## devid1985 (Nov 27, 2017)

TheMaOdy66 said:


> Part No: 8J 0615301 K - these are discs available since early 2016. None of the problems are solved.
> 
> And if you ask for my oppinion they won't be solved for the TT MK II (8J). Maybe they will solve them
> for the MK III (8S), but not for the "old" 8J. You got to use aftermarket material if you want to track
> the car seriously.


Sorry my english but I'm Italian and I have difficulty. When I can open a big discussion why I need your help to convert the brakes from tt to ttrs. I postpone all my questions in a single discussion but I do not understand why I still can not create one


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## ICETER (Jan 19, 2017)

TheMaOdy66 said:


> Kind thanks, buddy!  It is my pleasure if it's yours to watch the vids. :thumbup:
> 
> And another thanks for your oppinion of the Haldex Controller. I think this will be on of
> the updates I have to keep in mind.
> ...



Hi,

very impressive driving...again.:thumbup:

Unfortunately my RS sees mostly country roads...but I hope to make it to a racing track a couple of times next summer.
Seems like youve got a very good setup for the NOS. Do you know your suspension setup for the rear?
I ask, because it seems to me, that a very soft setting (9 clicks on rebound and 6 on compression) works best.
At least on normal roads. But maybe on a racing track, the rear could a bit too nervous...

Ive also gone through TÜV approval this summer.
Pole Position, KW Clubsport and 19" Oz´s.
I also installed Sparco 6 point belts.
In combination with the Recaros, you become one with the car. Weird feeling...



I have the HPA competition controller installed. By the way, since 8000km without any problem...
Unfortunately its a bit expensive for what it is, but it does its job really well.
It engages the rear way earlier and also during braking. The only time youre mainly FWD is out of a parking lot

Maybe interesting for you: I have installed K-tec camber plates where you can also adjust the caster. With them, (that's how it was explained to me) you could reduce the all over camber a bit, without losing it while steering. Im thinking of youre tire wear in another threat...


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

ICETER said:


> Hi,
> 
> very impressive driving...again.:thumbup:
> 
> ...


Kind thanks again...  And that was a very smooth and easy 8:30 lap. If needed I am
able to do this a lot faster (PB see below). But then the camera cars get less and less. 

After your experience I am now totally keen on the first drive with new seats and belts
next year.  It was my hope that it should work exactly the way you describe. 

Here you see my complete settings, done by Raeder Motorsports (Manthey Racing), the
specialist for setups for 'The Ring'. German language but self explaining I think. After I
had this setup I found 8 seconds to my previous Personal Best!  From 7:48 to 7:40
now!










You see: exactly the damper settings in the rear that you proposed...


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

devid1985 said:


> Sorry my english but I'm Italian and I have difficulty. When I can open a big discussion why I need your help to convert the brakes from tt to ttrs. I postpone all my questions in a single discussion but I do not understand why I still can not create one


Sorry, I don't know exactly as well. But I think (guys correct me) you have to do a certain
amount of posts in other threads before you are able to open your first own thread.

Maybe one of the Admins answers here?!


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## ICETER (Jan 19, 2017)

TheMaOdy66 said:


> Kind thanks again...  And that was a very smooth and easy 8:30 lap. If needed I am
> able to do this a lot faster (PB see below). But then the camera cars get less and less.
> 
> After your experience I am now totally keen on the first drive with new seats and belts
> ...


Thanks for sharing!
Spot landing on the rear
Just the front is a bit different (9 rebound and 4 compression), but thats presumably because of the mounted strut braces which stiffens the front already...


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## Iqbad (Oct 14, 2017)

Hello again, 

I am still thinking about getting a TT-RS and have even made an offer on one in Sweden that was for sale. Unfortunately the seller and I did not agree on the price so I have to keep looking.

Markus, since you know most things about TT-RS, =) if I want to go with a ~500hp tuning, what are my options? I see that for instance ABT charge far more than 5000Eur for this. What is actually needed in terms of hardware, is it only new turbo and intercooler, or also upgraded fuel pumps etc? Are there other companies that offer tuning packages (maybe including software?). 

Thanks!


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## TheMaOdy66 (Mar 15, 2013)

Iqbad said:


> Hello again,
> 
> I am still thinking about getting a TT-RS and have even made an offer on one in Sweden that was for sale. Unfortunately the seller and I did not agree on the price so I have to keep looking.
> 
> ...


Hey mate,

I am very sorry, but I don't have any ideas of TT-RSs > 400 HP. I only know that ABT was the last
tuner I would go to. Bad work for heaps of money. The ABT tune on mine (done by the previous owner)
was the only reason for me to think about re-flashing. If the car was stock as I bought it, it would most
probably be still stock (drivetrain) today. 

But I do know someone who is a specialist for high power TTs and drives one with 600+ HP himself.
If you are on facebook you'll find him as: https://www.facebook.com/markus.mann.1238?ref=br_rs

Say greetings from me (Markus Ody) and ask him your questions. He will know... 

Cheers
Markus


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