# '08 eos



## eosluvr2b (Apr 22, 2007)

I am completely in love with the eos!!









I have been doing my research and have visited 2 dealerships in my area to see this car in person. I have taken a test drive and I cannot wait to get one. I have read tons of info on the eos and I do have a couple of questions for the seasoned owners. This will be my first German - I have been a fan of Japanese for years. I am wondering if the probs with the first 2 yrs of the car have been worked out (windows and leaks mostly).








Also, I am wondering when the '08 will be released in the US....
Thanx!!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*

The car itself was pretty trouble-free right off the bat - the 'early adopter' problems seem to mostly have been with the service facilities (VW dealers) not being familiar with the car.
By now, the dealers have, for the most part, become familiar with the car, and here in this forum, we have figured out the correct way to solve problems such as window leaks or squeaks and rattles... so, I think you can go ahead and buy a car with confidence.
I'm not exactly sure when the MY 2008 Eos goes on sale, but if it is any help, most assembly plants shift production over to the next model year around the end of May or beginning of June. I don't think there are any changes planned for the Eos (MY 2007 vs. MY 2008), so the only difference you are likely to see is an 8 in section of the VIN that displays model year, rather than a 7.
Michael


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (PanEuropean)*

It appeas that in the US Market the choices may be more restricted fro Model Year 08.. Eg No more sport package on 2.0T cars, no more LUX package on 3.2 cars..
-M.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: '08 eos (mark_d_drake)*

Ah - correct. For sake of clarity, though, those are 'Importer' (VW of America) decisions, not changes made at the factory. As far as the factory is concerned, I don't think anything changes at all from MY 07 to MY 08.
Michael


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## kpiskin (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (PanEuropean)*

I just purchased a 2.0T Sport yesterday after lurking in the forums for awhile. I decided to purchase this year since there will be less options for the 2.0T in 2008. I love the car BTW. I'm certain I'll spring for the Revo ECU upgrade to regain the power I would have had in the 3.2.


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: '08 eos (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_It appeas that in the US Market the choices may be more restricted fro Model Year 08.. Eg No more sport package on 2.0T cars, no more LUX package on 3.2 cars..
-M.

That's not entirely correct. The luxury package was never offered as a seperate option for US spec 3.2L cars. Instead, the upgrade pieces that constitute the luxury package in the 2.0T come standard in the 3.2L car. It also appears that condition is going to continue through 08.


_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 5:56 PM 4-22-2007_


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## Roku (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*

I can offer the following very limited update.
I ordered a 2007 Canadian spec'd EOS on January 15th and it seemed that it was proceeding normally through the system. That is, the EOS was "Released to Manuf." but never made it to "Release for Production", the actual build, but was "held" along with all other North American orders not "released for production" the dealer tells me in early April. Those orders along with mine then changed to 2008. The system now shows as if I ordered on March 3rd and a date for "Release to Manuf." of April 5th (the date I'm guessing this all changed). The dealer has provided me actual printouts after my initial order and all away along. In a telephone conversation he had very limited info of the changes and I didn't note everything as he's providing me a list soon, but:
For Canadian spec'd vehicles:
There appears there will be a true "base" model that will have the sunroof as an option.
The 2.0T (the only one previously available in Canada) and the one I ordered is now referred to as a "EOS 2.0T TRENDLINE".
I ordered an EOS loaded and nothing appears changed except satellite radio is part of the package now. It also still shows 18" alloys but we don't know if there "Samarkands" or perhaps "Chicagos". And, that the sports package is "likely" a true sport package as is available state side.
When I have more information I'll post.
Craig

_Modified by Roku at 4:54 PM 4-22-2007_


_Modified by Roku at 4:57 PM 4-22-2007_


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (Roku)*

Given the fuss over the design of the CSC roof I find it hard to believe that the sunroof would be an option on any eos.....


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (Roku)*

Interesting post Craig, I guess the good news is you will have an 08 model.
Keep us posted on the changes once confirmed.
Kevin


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## eosluvr2b (Apr 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (just4fun)*

Thanx 4 the great info!! So, it seems like the '08 will be hitting the streets before the fall.... I have been kinda waiting until then to see if there are any better deals (lease rates...) since you can still get a better lease deal on a Toureg than on an Eos, and a Jetta for about 1/2 the lease payment as well ($200 range).... I am a little leary of a lease payment well over the $500 mark.
Besides, I still have another 12 mos on my current lease (Japanese)... so I guess I have more obsessing (sp>?) to do about the eos for a couple more mos...








-Lynn


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## JML (Jun 19, 2000)

*Re: '08 eos (PanEuropean)*

Michael, 
back in the days, the model year change for Germany (and the production line change for cars produced here) was done in the 18th calendar week (hence the VW-internal moniker KW18 changes). I believe that still holds true as Audi has already enabled its online configurator with the MY2008 changes (at least for the A6). 
So far, I have not received any information regarding changes for the MY 2008 Eos and the VW website still has the September 2006 catalogues available. The only changes I saw in the configurator were a uphill assistant for the V6 (why? DSG should hold the car on an incline just like an automatic would), day-light running lights (I did notice the irony of NA people in this forum asking how to disable the thing while VW of Germany offers it as a E40ish option) and aluminum-optic pedals as a standalone option (for those not going for the alu trim package). I admit, though, that I have not been to scoopy in recent months as I am waiting on some career moves to play out which will determine if or when I return back stateside and I don't want to buy a Euro-spec car just to have it shipped to the U.S. or Canada a few weeks later.
Jan


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eosluvr2b* »_Thanx 4 the great info!! So, it seems like the '08 will be hitting the streets before the fall.... I have been kinda waiting until then to see if there are any better deals (lease rates...) since you can still get a better lease deal on a Toureg than on an Eos, and a Jetta for about 1/2 the lease payment as well ($200 range).... I am a little leary of a lease payment well over the $500 mark.
Besides, I still have another 12 mos on my current lease (Japanese)... so I guess I have more obsessing (sp>?) to do about the eos for a couple more mos...








-Lynn

















There was a special lease rate for the Eos on VW.com under "special offers" last week; however, I have been going back in throughout the weekend and there is a scripting error.


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (flheat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flheat* »_
There was a special lease rate for the Eos on VW.com under "special offers" last week; however, I have been going back in throughout the weekend and there is a scripting error.

Here's the direct link to the EOS offer. http://www.vw.com/eos/offers/en/us/#


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## eosluvr2b (Apr 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (flheat)*

flheat-
Does that mean that there is/was an offer better than the $403/mo for the base??? It seems like that rate has been available for some time now.... I was hoping for a better rate. It seems like they offer better monthly's on both Passat and Toureg which have a higher MSRP. I would think that the residual would be high enough to warrant a lower payment. I know that the eos is a "special" vehicle in the line, but what gives?!?! I have heard time and time again not to put $$ down on a lease, which will put me well over the $500 mark on a base line, wouldn't it?????
I am still a bit foggy on when the MY will roll over to '08. Should I order one or just wait to see what hits the lots??? I really only want a pretty basic model. Not sure if I want manual or auto yet.... Don't really need all the bells and whistles, since I don't want to get close to the $40K mark.
What do y'all suggest???
-Lynn


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## Roku (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (Roku)*

Well, it seems alot has transpired since I last posted in this thread. In the last week it's become painfully obvious that the delivery date that was promised more or less, end of April or early May, when I ordered mid-January now looks like the end of August or more likely September. No fault in my mind of the dealer - more so VW corporate. And, with the uncertainty of trim changes resulting from the model year change to 2008, good or bad has lead me to cancel my order with the dealer's full understanding.
Even though my original focus was on convertible roadsters back in January when I walked into the VW/Audi dealership inquiring about the TT, I immediately was sold on the EOS sitting in the showroom placing my order a few days later. Saving a few bucks over a roadster didn't hurt either!
Now I'm back looking to my shortlist of roadsters but now focused only on those sitting on a dealers lot with the options I'm after. Might have to get one shipped in from out of province but I don't anticipate that being a problem.
I just wanted to pass along how much I've enjoyed participating in this forum. Of course, I will now have to sell my VAG-COM and Bentley Tech manual but don't anticpate too much trouble there - talk about being hyped about a purchase that one starts buying accessories so to speak even before they have the car!








Anyways,
FWIW
Craig


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*

They finally fixed the script on the page.
http://www.vw.com/eos/offers/en/us/#
Here is a comparison of the Eos and the Passat lease terms. I think the biggest factor is the dealer contribution required on the Passat. Additionally the Eos is a higher price; however, it has a more favorable residual. Since one would pay over $4500 more on the Eos, it appears to have a higher money factor. Both have steep over mileage penalties.
These are the terms of the lease:
2007 Eos with Manual Transmission*
$403/Month
36-Month Lease
$2,903.00 Due at Signing
(excluding destination, taxes, title, options, and dealer charges)
Or, see your local VW dealer for one of the many other great lease deals available on Eos.
©2007 Volkswagen of America, Inc. *U.S. cars only. Based on MSRP of $28,110.00 for a 2007 Eos with Manual Transmission, excluding title, taxes, destination, options and dealer charges. Monthly payments total $14,508.00. No dealer contribution required. Purchase option at lease end for $17,537.50. For all offers at lease end lessees responsible for $0.20/mile over 36,000 miles and for damage and excessive wear. Dealer sets actual prices.
2007 Passat with Automatic Transmission*
$249/Month
36-Month Lease
$2,324 Due at Signing
(excluding destination, taxes, title, options, and dealer charges)
Or, see your local VW dealer for one of the many other great lease deals available on Passat Models.
©2007 Volkswagen of America, Inc. *U.S. cars only. Based on MSRP of $24,255.00 for a 2007 Passat with Automatic Transmission, excluding title, taxes, destination, options and dealer charges. Monthly payments total $8,964.00. Requires dealer contribution of $1,651.62, which could affect final negotiated transaction. Purchase option at lease end for $13,194.35. For all offers at lease end lessees responsible for $0.25/mile over 36,000 miles and for damage and excessive wear. Dealer sets actual prices.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: '08 eos (Roku)*

Hi Craig:
Sorry to hear of the unexpected delay - I can fully understand why you would cancel.
If you want to post a "for sale" ad for the VAG-COM and the Bentley manual as a stand-alone post, go right ahead. Our Eos community is small enough that I think it best that we post FS ads here in the main forum, rather than starting up an 'Eos classifieds' forum elsewhere on Vortex.
Michael


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## Roku (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Micheal,
I'll put something together and take you up on your offer.
Craig


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (Roku)*

Sorry to hear it Craig, but understandable. 
There are lots of great auto's out there, whatever you choose, I'm sure you will enjoy it!
Best wishes
Kevin


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## eosluvr2b (Apr 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (flheat)*

Hey flheat - 
Thanx for the comparison!! I LOVE the photos of your eos. It looks like the photos were taken off of lake Ivanhoe/ Orange ave.... very nice!!!
Not too sure what all of the financing terms are (maybe cuz I am just a girl.... ha ha ha ) but it still seems a bit unfair from the eos view....
I just wanna lease an eos without being --- well --- you know. I curr have an SUV that I think I paid too much for and am thinking I will try to sell/trade out of the lease on a different source and then get the eos with a "clean slate" so that I don't have to start upside down, therefore I really want to get the best deal possible.... I am TRYING to be patient and wait for the '08 to hit the streets to see if any better offers are out there in the horizon......
xxoo
-Lynn


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## eosluvr2b (Apr 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (just4fun)*

Does this mean if I try to order and eos, I will wait until oct-ish???'
Should I just "pick and choose" from dealer stock???
-Lynn


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*

Canada appears to suffer longer waits than the US


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eosluvr2b* »_Hey flheat - 
Thanx for the comparison!! I LOVE the photos of your eos. It looks like the photos were taken off of lake Ivanhoe/ Orange ave.... very nice!!!


Lynn, Thanks, they were taken by Lake Lucerne and Park Lake actually. I also did get some by Lake Ivanhoe but those are not in my signature line.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (Roku)*

Craig,
IM me a price on your VAG-COM and Bentley Manual. Not sure if I'm really interested in the VAG-COM, because I'd have to spring an additional $500-$600 for a laptop to be able to use it. But definitely would be interested in the manual.
Thanks
Kevin


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

Post them in the new EOS classified section...
Maybe we have several members interested, and we will be justifying and making good use of the newly added Eso Classified section.


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## jgermuga (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eosluvr2b* »_Thanx 4 the great info!! So, it seems like the '08 will be hitting the streets before the fall.... I have been kinda waiting until then to see if there are any better deals (lease rates...) since you can still get a better lease deal on a Toureg than on an Eos, and a Jetta for about 1/2 the lease payment as well ($200 range).... I am a little leary of a lease payment well over the $500 mark.
Besides, I still have another 12 mos on my current lease (Japanese)... so I guess I have more obsessing (sp>?) to do about the eos for a couple more mos...








-Lynn

















Lynn,
Please do not get distracted by the lease payment. I happen to have gotten a very solid lease deal at a time when none were advertised. You should be able to negotiate this with the dealer. Here is a link for an article that offers some very good advice. Counter to what most people think, a higher lease payment is not always the sign of a bad deal, and could actually be considered a better deal in the case of the car getting totaled. For comparison sake, you should be looking to get a residual value around 60% for a 36-9 month lease.
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/....html


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## kmarei (Aug 17, 2006)

that's my biggest issue with the eos
the base model is on lease for 403$
when for the same amount i can get a BMW 328Xi coupe auto!
CSC all you want but it's still a VW as opposed to a BMW.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*

And a BMW is better why, other than perception ?


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*

That's not a fair comparison. Have you checked with the BMW dealer for lease prices on a 328 or 335 hardtop convertible? My guess is it will be much higher.

Andy


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## kghia (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_Given the fuss over the design of the CSC roof I find it hard to believe that the sunroof would be an option on any eos.....

Not only the fact that it is a main feature, but the opening of the sunroof is one of the first steps in the roof-folding process.
When the roof goes down, the parts of the roof to the sides of the sunroof do not fold, but go into the body _beside_ the rear passengers. The sunroof must retract first so that it may be over the other pieces of roof, _behind_ the rear passengers.
Therefore, they would have to fold differently if the sunroof portion didn't retract-- and that would make it a harder, different problem for VW.
William


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## Roku (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (Roku)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Roku* »_Of course, I will now have to sell my VAG-COM and Bentley Tech manual but don't anticpate too much trouble there...

Both these are SOLD!
Thanks to everyone who showed interest.
Craig


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## kmarei (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (cb391)*

why is the BMW better?
quality for one
one of the worlds greatest engines (inline 6 3.0)
6 cyl engine (yes i know the 2.0T is a great engine, but it's still a 2,0)
much better resale
standard 4wd
comes with automatic (not the cheapest model in the range like the EOS)
and yes perceived image
the image of a BMW is much much better than a VW
and i beleive that image is based on making great cars for many years
it's not just based on emotion
the eos lease in my opinion isa rip off
i can get a lease on an Audi A4 cabrio auto with premium package for 399 
and that's a 40K car
not 28 and some change like the base EOS
yes the Audi is a soft top, but the CSC roof is not with that much premium
yes it's not a fair comparison
but these are both cars i was looking at
and value wise the Eos comes out last among this group
i test drove the Eos, it;s a very nice car
but it's not a premium contender
unlike the BMW or the Audi
as for me i think i am leaning towards the Audi A5
looks great and great quality
and about 3000 more than the Eos 3.2



_Modified by kmarei at 10:27 PM 4-28-2007_


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*

I"ve driven many BMW's over the years and never noticed one that performs significantly better than a equiviantly powered VW. In general I'll take VW's front wheel drive handling over BMWs rear wheel drive any day. Yes I know the arguments for RWD over FWD but for most of us we're safer and better able to deal with FWD than RWD, although with ESP these aguments are pretty mute AFAIK 4WD is not an option on either the BMW or the VW convertables, both offer it on other models.
There are 2 areas I will give BMW credit, (1) marketing, the have done a magnificent job of generating the perception that they produce a significantly better car (AKA the ultimate driving machine), and (2) managing to persuade a significant number of people that they are actually getting some significant for the price premium they have been persuaded to pay over an equivilant VW or Audi. 
As far as I can tell BMW is purely about status, as long as you compare vehicles of an equivilant specification, the same is true of Audi, although I actually think Audi proivde a slightly better finish than BMW on a model for model basis. 
Anyway if you don't want an EOS then please drive (and lease) whatever you feel will make you happy. I love my EOS and if the local BMW dealer came up to me and offered a straight trade of my 3.2 EOS for a fully loaded top of the line BMW 3 Series convertable my answer would be thanks, but no thanks.


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 10:44 PM 4-28-2007_


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*

I agree. Give BMW convertibles another couple months or so, you will see many of them on the road. Unlike EOS. I am sorry, but I don't think I like to drive cars like my neighbors.


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## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_I"ve driven many BMW's over the years and never noticed one that performs significantly better than a equivalently powered VW. In general I'll take VW's front wheel drive handling over BMWs rear wheel drive any day. Yes I know the arguments for RWD over FWD but for most of us we're safer and better able to deal with FWD than RWD, although with ESP these augments are pretty mute AFAIK 4WD is not an option on either the BMW or the VW convertibles, both offer it on other models.


The one thing a RWD car will always have over a FWD car is better steering. The laws of physics are behind that and they are just that - laws. It is probably true to say that if you are more familiar with the 'handling' of a FWD car then you feel safer and more confident in a FWD car. Straight out performance as you point out has very little between the equivalent models but they way they steer and feel is very different.
Have a look out the latest Audi RS models and the new A5. They are going for a 50/50 weight distribution as against their more traditional nose heavy weightings, they are also going for a more rear biased torque split in normal conditions of 60% to the rear and have moved the engine back in the chassis to provide a less compromised steering geometry. All of this is costing a lot of money and it is happening for very valid reasons.

_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_
There are 2 areas I will give BMW credit, (1) marketing, the have done a magnificent job of generating the perception that they produce a significantly better car (AKA the ultimate driving machine), and (2) managing to persuade a significant number of people that they are actually getting some significant for the price premium they have been persuaded to pay over an equivalent VW or Audi. 
As far as I can tell BMW is purely about status, as long as you compare vehicles of an equivalent specification, the same is true of Audi, although I actually think Audi provide a slightly better finish than BMW on a model for model basis. 
_Modified by mark_d_drake at 10:44 PM 4-28-2007_

In Australia at least Audi and BMW have pricing which is close to equivalent on a model for model basis. I agree that the Audi is probably better finished particularly in the interior. But apart from their A3 models they are all to nose heavy and ultimately under steer too much for many peoples liking with a numbness in the steering.
And as for convincing people to pay more for a product due to perceived prestige that is really *the pot calling the kettle black*. At least BMW have unique platforms and engines where as the VW Group are the ultimate players of the game of using the same pieces branded differently as an excuse to charge the consumer more, more and a lot more.
I give you - Skoda, Seat, VW and Audi.
In the UK Market -
Seat Leon FR 2.0 TFSI Price 17090 Pounds (197 bhp)
Skoda Octavia vRS 2.0 TFSI Price 17710 Pounds (200 bhp)
VW Golf GTI 2.0 TFSI Price 21095 Pounds (197 bhp)
Audi A3 2.0 TFSI Price 21845 Pounds (197 bhp)
The same platform, the same engine, the same transmission and a huge number of common parts under the exterior and interior skins that you can't see.
In addition I would suggest that Audi parts are move expensive than Seat parts and it will cost more to get you Audi serviced at the dealer then the Seat owner.
On the figures above the Audi owner is paying almost 22% more for his version of the same car.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (sydeos)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sydeos* »_In Australia at least Audi and BMW have pricing which is close to equivalent on a model for model basis. 

That is an interesting observation. It always amuses me to see how the different auto manufacturers position themselves in different world markets.
For example, in Canada (and probably the USA as well), BMW products sell for quite a premium over the equivalent VW products, with Audi being almost exactly in the middle. In other words, if a VW product sells for 100%, an equivalent Audi will sell for 115% and an equivalent BMW for 130%.
In Europe, things are quite different. VW and BMW products both sell for the same price, assuming equal size and features, and Audi gets away with a slight premium - perhaps 10% more, but that's all. In the lower end of the market, Mercedes is seen as the mass market player - the equivalent to Chevrolet in the USA or Holden in Australia - and they don't get any premium at all, although they do get a lot of money for their higher end models. In Switzerland, a common wisecrack is "If I want a ride in a Mercedes, I'll call a taxi."








Michael


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
"If I want a ride in a Mercedes, I'll call a taxi."








Michael

Reminds of the time a (very young) US collegue of mine arrived in amsterdam on his first trip to Europe called me from the airport asking where to find the Tax Standi, cause all he could find was a line of limos (Mercedes)...


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 6:54 AM 4-29-2007_


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## kmarei (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*

are you trying to tell me there is no difference in quality between a BMW and a VW?
a german engineered made in germany car with many awards for its engines
VS a mexican or portugese german enigneered car that has a much much lower JD power associates rating?
see this link first of all
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/brand-ratings/
i am not just trying to put down VW, don't get me wrong
i really like the EOS, and would chose it over a 3 series comvertible
i am just syaing there is a marked difference between VW and BMW
which is not reflected in the prices of the lease offers
a base model eos 2.0t manual is not the same value as a 328Xi Coupe with an auto thrown in
bottom line is lets say i buy both cars in 07
how much will each one retain of its value after 3 years?


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*

I would say there is very little or no difference in quality between the Portguese VW and the BMW. I've never owned a Mexican assembled VW so I can't comment on the build quality there. 
Certainly in my experience there is no discernable difference in the quality between a higher spec German built Golf or Jetta the equivilant featured BMW. I would say from experience that rather than the "Ultimate Driving Machine" BMW would be closer to the truth as the "Ultimate Marketing Machine", and of course the perception of quality helps their residule values.
Now in the US of course you tend not to see the higher spec VW models or the lower spec BMW models which make the comparrison more difficult. Since I tend to keep my cars a long time, eg 14 years on the last one (A VW Cabrio) the value after 3 years doesn't particularly bother me.

BTW i wouldn't put much faith in JD Powers etc, particularly for more expensive vehicles. Unless someone has a very very bad experience, anyone paying 30K, yet alone 40K for a car is very unlikely to admit they are not happy with what they purchased. If they have a really bad experience then they will be negative on such a survey, but this will be unecessarily negative, that's just human nature. JD Powers and the like are baiscally marketing tools, I would not want to make a purchase decision based on their data.


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 8:48 PM 4-29-2007_


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*

Maybe the lease prices are not what you like. That's ok. My question still remains as to how you can compare Eos which is a FWD convertible to a BMW 328xi which is AWD and a sedan. If you are leaning toward an A5 which which for now is not a convertible and probably AWD, you should be comparing it to a Passat with AWD. An Eos is what it is and probably should never be compared to BMW other than being a lower priced alternative.
Andy


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## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_Certainly in my experience there is no discernible difference in the quality between a higher spec German built Golf or Jetta the equivalent featured BMW. I would say from experience that rather than the "Ultimate Driving Machine" BMW would be closer to the truth as the "Ultimate Marketing Machine", and of course the perception of quality helps their residual values.
_Modified by mark_d_drake at 8:48 PM 4-29-2007_

Okay Mark we get it that you don't like BMWs








However Mercedes and Audi are both spending lots of money of making their models drive more like BMWs particularly with regard to their steering and handling. See the new A5 which will give us the new A4 and Mercs latest C Class. It is not about the build quality its about the way the car drives.
So it would appear that plenty of people want that to happen.
As Michael pointed out VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes are marketed and priced very differently across the various world markets and sometimes it is easy to get tunnel vision with your own market and local conditions.
For the vast majority of people in their normal driving experience there is no huge differences in the way these cars handle. But on a track or a interesting bit of winding road I will take take the BMW over the equivalent VW, Audi or Merc. Because of the response and feedback to me as the driver and the reward it gives me as a driving experience.
I come from having a Lotus Elise as my daily driver for 4 years. I realise most people don't drive the way I do








But for those that do it is the way a BMW responds when you start to approach the more demanding edges of the driving envelope that show where BMW has spent their money and expertise.
If those things are not important to you then by all means spend your money somewhere else on the car that better meets your requirements.
I am buying an Eos because I want a convertible that is well built and an interesting drive with reasonable performance. I know that I would prefer to drive the BMW 325 Convertible but spec'd to an equivalent level here in Australia the Eos 2.0 TFSI fully optioned is $65,000 (US$53,000) and the BMW is $110,000 (US$92,000). The Audi 1.8T Quattro Cabriolet is $88,000 (US$72,200) and an Astra Twin Top is $50,000 (US$41,000). The above prices are for the car on the road ready to drive from the dealership. My car is leased though my place of work and that puts the Eos at the top of my car allowance so it is a no brainer.
But look at the prices we are paying here at the bottom of the world and I think you will agree that things are not even close to being the same the world over.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (sydeos)*

It's not that I don't like them, I just don't think that they are necessarily better (or worse) than an equivilant powered and specified Audi or VW and given that are way over-priced and over-hyped. 
Back in the mid 80's I think they were actually worse than the equivilant Audi or VW as in those days the 3 series were incrediable tail happy in the wet, which living in the UK, and dealing with wet roads was a real problem. However as I said in my earlier post modern traction control systems have resolved that particular issue. 
Again wrt to the majority of drivers who will never push the car to the limits either on or off the track they will never see the difference between a good FWD or RWD car and in general in those cases a 4WD car is typically the winner for a car that bears any resemblance to stock. 

If you are in a Market where (a) VW does not offer it's higher end products and (b) BMW attempts to give the impression of being a higher end product by not offering it's base models of course BMW will tend to appear to be a more upscale offering. 


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 6:50 AM 4-30-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (kmarei)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmarei* »_i am just syaing there is a marked difference between VW and BMW...

Yes, that is true, but it appears that the most significant difference between the VW Eos and the closest comparable BMW product is the size of the vehicle - the BMW offering is a larger vehicle.
Auto Bild, which is more or less the German market equivalent of Road & Track or Car and Driver, compared the Eos and BMW directly in this week's issue. Here's what they had to say: Auto Bild Test - BMW 335i, Audi A4, Volvo C70, VW Eos 3.2.
Michael


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## kmarei (Aug 17, 2006)

and mark if what you were saying about people spending 30-40K on a car never admit it's bad quality then why did mercedes's ranking plumit when they tried to cut costs and not over engineer their cars?
i am not saying it represent the final outcome of quality. but this is based on what thousands of owners say about their cars.
and i can gaurantee you you are in a minority. Pretty much everyone else knows that BMW are of a higher quality than VW's


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*

(A) Because I wanted a convertable which the 328xi coupe is not
(B) Because I wouldn't be caught dead driving a BMW.
You are in danger of becoming a Troll. 
If you prefer the BMW for financial or other reasons please go and lease it and enjoy it for what it is. If you are confident that it is a better car for less money I'm sure you will be happy with your decision
If you want the pleasure of a hard top convertable then either look at the new BMW convertable and compare that with the cost of the EOS or lease the EOS and be happy with it for what it is. Maybe if you go down this route you'll learn to appreicate that there really is not that much difference.
I would guess that the farest VW to compare with a 328xi couple would be an Golf R32.. Both are 2 Door (well 3 in the case of the Golf), 4WD, 6 Cylinder. I've not looked at the leasing of the R32 so I don't know how that would compare. However due to the limited availablilty of the R32 (5000 cars in the US market ?) that's probably not a far comparison either, in a year or two the 328xi BMW will be a so common that no-one will notice another one while the limited availability of the R32 will mean that it will remain a head turner..
So given this I suggest we agree to disagree, and remember that this is the EOS forum, for EOS enthusiasts.. You can find a BMW forum here if you need more support in order to make a final decision...
http://forums.mwerks.com/zeroforum?id=744


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmarei* »_and mark if what you were saying about people spending 30-40K on a car never admit it's bad quality then why did mercedes's ranking plumit when they tried to cut costs and not over engineer their cars?

Because people thought they were paying for a particular degree of qualitiy and customer service and then found out that since they weren't getting what they'd expected, which would put them in the other category, the overly negative. I suspect that while these people didn't actually get what they expected they were overly negative in their responses to the survey.


_Modified by mark_d_drake at 5:41 PM 4-30-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_You are in danger of becoming a Troll. 

Karim:
I am afraid I agree with Mark's comment, above.
This forum is primarily a technical discussion forum, a resource center for Eos owners, Eos technicians, or folks who are considering purchasing an Eos. That doesn't mean that participants cannot hold differing opinions, but it does mean that this forum is not the place for passionate debate about the pros and cons of anything, whether that is VW vs. BMW, Goodyear vs. Firestone, or light interiors vs. dark interiors.
We try to always treat each other with respect here, and keep in mind that it is certainly possible to hold different opinions than another person but still respect the person with the different opinion.
If you would like to participate in a more freewheeling, less structured environment where combative and forceful discussion is the norm, perhaps have a look at The Car Lounge. The tone of that forum is more akin to your posting style.
Michael


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## kmarei (Aug 17, 2006)

then i guess this is a forum for just saying the benefits of the Eos and praising it
and any point of view contrary to that is unwelcome, such as comparing the Eos to other cars or quoting facts like the JD power ratings
sort of an ostrich mentailty
my only point was how can similarly priced leases around 400 compare to each other when the VW is 28K and the BMW is 39.5K with more options.
and if you choose another car you are a troll.
if i was a troll and simply chose the more popular cars i would not be driving a chrysler crossfire. 
the only combative discussion was not from me
but from members who think that VW matches BMW and that the lease offers were correct and how great the Eos is
remember what VW stands for
people's car
i.e trolls according to your members








thank you and goodnight


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## Canadian Lurker (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: (kmarei)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmarei* »_.....my only point was how can similarly priced leases around 400 compare to each other when the VW is 28K and the BMW is 39.5K with more options......

Karim,
there are many factors that go into determining a lease payment and overall lease cost of a given vehicle. These include:
- initial purchase price and any downpayment
- any taxes, fees, or hidden charges (there can be big differences here)
- credit scores
- lease rate
- residual values
- term, and
- other subtle features such as included gap insurance
You cannot simply take two vehicle MSRP points or two different vehicle lease payments taken from advertisements and make any kind of value judgement with those simple factors. At best, you know the ballpark that you're in. You really need to compare all of the above factors in unisen in order to make a decision as to which offer is better or which package offers a better overall value.
The trickiest component is the residuals. I've long speculated that BMW has created a marketplace expectation that their vehicles hold their value better than other comparable vehicles. In some measure, this may actually be a real perception in the marketplace. However, I suspect that astute financial manouvering on their part has actually engineered this perception. They've done this by purposely creating higher residuals on their leases. This drives a lower monthly payment and helps sell cars. This can probably be done with less impact than huge cash incentiveslike the Big 3 have used. For example, anybody who buys out their lease at then hasn't actually cost them anything. The ones that turn in their cars feed a strong CPO market and it's cheaper to be say $1,000 too high on the residual vs having to put up a $2,500 incentive up front. Either way - payments are lower + they sell more cars + they have a perception that value is higher.
Bottom line - the rate, the MSRP, and the payment are not enough to properly compare the "deals".








JJ


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## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Karim:
I am afraid I agree with Mark's comment, above.
This forum is primarily a technical discussion forum, a resource center for Eos owners, Eos technicians, or folks who are considering purchasing an Eos. That doesn't mean that participants cannot hold differing opinions, but it does mean that this forum is not the place for passionate debate about the pros and cons of anything, whether that is VW vs. BMW, Goodyear vs. Firestone, or light interiors vs. dark interiors.
We try to always treat each other with respect here, and keep in mind that it is certainly possible to hold different opinions than another person but still respect the person with the different opinion.
If you would like to participate in a more freewheeling, less structured environment where combative and forceful discussion is the norm, perhaps have a look at The Car Lounge. The tone of that forum is more akin to your posting style.
Michael


I am afraid I have to sympathise with Karim a little here. A perception here is that Mark has expressed his personal views fairly forcefully on the subject a couple of times in this thread and then used his status as a Moderator of this forum to end the matter. I am not saying that this was his intention merely the way that it could be interpreted.
As you have show by your tenure Michael as a moderator on this forum it is not only about being fair it is about the perception of being totally fair. The use of the Moderator tag brings a requirement for a higher standard to be applied to your forum posts. 
It is a legitimate question dealing with the total cost of ownership on a lease. You have to compare apples with apples with regard to the deal as outlined in the above post but at the end of the day if it costs you the same amount of money a month to have a car which is significantly more expensive to purchase in the first place then surely it is fair to question whether VW is attempting to make more money on their leasing deals then BMW or any other manufacturer.
If you want to drive a particular car then it doesn't matter but if you are deciding between several options then it is very relevant.


_Modified by sydeos at 8:58 PM 5-1-2007_


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## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_Again wrt to the majority of drivers who will never push the car to the limits either on or off the track they will never see the difference between a good FWD or RWD car and in general in those cases a 4WD car is typically the winner for a car that bears any resemblance to stock. 
_Modified by mark_d_drake at 6:50 AM 4-30-2007_


In a market where snow and ice are a feature of the driving environment then I would agree with you however not all markets are like that and I would contend that the majority of the world market is not like that.
AWD or 4WD versions are heavier, more complex, more expensive and use more fuel than their FWD or RWD versions. In the Australian market BMWs are all RWD apart from their SUVs and Mercedes is the same. Audi sell FWD versions of the A3, A4 and A6 and only go AWD for there higher powered versions and the only 2 AWD VWs are the R32 Golf and 3.2L Passat 4 Motion.
The only AWD car range is Subaru and it is acknowledged that this is a marketing decision.
The tend is going the other way for SUVs in our market as more and more versions are coming out in either FWD or RWD as well as AWD or 4WD for all the reasons listed above and users that don't require serious off road capability.


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_If you are in a Market where (a) VW does not offer it's higher end products and (b) BMW attempts to give the impression of being a higher end product by not offering it's base models of course BMW will tend to appear to be a more upscale offering. 
_Modified by mark_d_drake at 6:50 AM 4-30-2007_

We get all the BMWs from the 116 to the 760 including the M cars but excluding the 2.0 Z4 and the more powerfull diesel 3 and 5 series cars and miss some of the smaller engined VW cars, 3.2 Eos and the Phaeton. Which after being evaluated by VW Australia was not imported.
We also get all the Eos's hardtop convertible competitors to choose from as well apart from those that only come in Left Hand Drive









_Modified by sydeos at 9:48 PM 5-1-2007_


_Modified by sydeos at 9:49 PM 5-1-2007_


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (sydeos)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sydeos* »_I am afraid I have to sympathise with Karim a little here. 

I have some empathy for Karim as well, I did not find his comments, or discussion, forceful or objectional.
However CanadianLurker has expressed the point I was going to make. I think Karim should be comparing the leases as closely as he is comparing cars.
With that much spread in the MSRP, but with a comparable monthly payment, there has to be significant differences somewhere in the lease terms. It would be wise to be very clear on what you are signing into.
Kevin


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (just4fun)*

Let me start of by making it clear that while I am a moderator, I never directly or indirectly threatened to use Moderator privileges (lock thread, edit thread or remove points etc) with this poster. Nor would I do so in this case, no matter what direction the thread took, since I obviously hold an opposing view to the OP...
Secondly I found the tone of the original post somewhat questionable

_Quote, originally posted by *kmarei* »_that's my biggest issue with the eos
the base model is on lease for 403$
when for the same amount i can get a BMW 328Xi coupe auto!
CSC all you want but it's still a VW as opposed to a BMW. 

He compares apples with oranges and makes the assumption that (a) the BMW is better than the VW, and (b) everybody accepts that as 
gospel truth...
The last sentence is fairly typical of a 'troll'. Make a statement like that in a VW enthusiast forum and see what happens. Typically a statement like that is going to get some people angry. Maybe in hind sight I should have simply ignored it...

I simply started off by asking him to justify that assumption
In his response to my question 


_Quote, originally posted by *kmarei* »_why is the BMW better?
the eos lease in my opinion is a rip off i can get a lease on an Audi A4 cabrio auto with premium package for 399 and that's a 40K car not 28 and some change like the base EOS yes the Audi is a soft top, but the CSC roof is not with that much premium
yes it's not a fair comparison but these are both cars i was looking at
and value wise the Eos comes out last among this group i test drove the Eos, it;s a very nice car but it's not a premium contender
unlike the BMW or the Audi as for me i think i am leaning towards the Audi A5 looks great and great quality
and about 3000 more than the Eos 3.2


Again I felt the response was deliberately combative use of the term 'rip off' in particular. 
Anyway if any one felt I was being heavy handed I apologize. My own *personal opinion and experience* is that while the BMW may handle better at the limits, the only place you will ever really notice the difference in performance or handling between a similar specification BMW and VW is at a track day, and not during everyday or even exhuberent (but still safe) highway driving. I am also personally am not convinced that there is any significant difference in qualitly of materials or build between equivilant specification BMW and VW vehicles. 



_Modified by mark_d_drake at 6:42 AM 5-1-2007_


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: '08 eos (eosluvr2b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eosluvr2b* »_Hey flheat - 
Thanx for the comparison!! I LOVE the photos of your eos. It looks like the photos were taken off of lake Ivanhoe/ Orange ave.... very nice!!!
Not too sure what all of the financing terms are (maybe cuz I am just a girl.... ha ha ha ) but it still seems a bit unfair from the eos view....
I just wanna lease an eos without being --- well --- you know. I curr have an SUV that I think I paid too much for and am thinking I will try to sell/trade out of the lease on a different source and then get the eos with a "clean slate" so that I don't have to start upside down, therefore I really want to get the best deal possible.... I am TRYING to be patient and wait for the '08 to hit the streets to see if any better offers are out there in the horizon......
xxoo
-Lynn









Yo Lynn, three things:
go to http://www.edmunds.com/advice/....html and study it so that you can understand leasing finacing terms. Study it and make it your ally. Nothing feels better than walking into a car dealer knowing what car you want, than also knowing how and how much you are going to payl Don;t lets car salesmen be your financial advisors. 
Go to http://www.edmunds.com/advice/....html and read it through.. its a bit long but facinating. Again more ammunition for the buyer. 
Lastly, if youa re going to wait for 2008, then I advise you this: wait for like aug or sept and see what prices dealers have for 2007 eos. that is the ripe time to pick uop a convertable if you donl;t need the latest and greatest. There is nothing a dealer would want in september of 2007 than to get rid of his 2007 inventory to make room for the 2008. Plus there will likely be factory incentives too. You may have to hunt around. Already i saw in april $3000 off EOS that ahve been in dealer lots for over 4 montghs... and that in the middle of spring!!! Imagime what it would be like in the beginning of the fall and winter!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif $3000 of msrp means like youa re getting a sport package almost for free.. so think of it as an upgrade.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_ Maybe in hind sight I should have simply ignored it...


Hi Mark,
Both Michael and yourself are doing a #1 job of moderating, and the this forum wouldn't be the same without you.
FWIW I didn't think you had overstepped your authority as moderator. 
I may have misunderstood your use of the term "troll". Initially I felt that it was a bit harsh, and didn't flow with the friendly atmosphere here. 
But based on comments in your follow up post, am I to understand that "troll" is kind of a generic term for someone who drops into a discussion just to stir things up?? And you were merely suggesting that perhaps that was Karim's intention??
We all get opinionated from time to time, so occassionaly the discussions here are going to get a bit heated. During those times maybe we do need to take a step back, and recall Michaels' comment along the lines of "silence speaks the loudest volume".
Keep up the good work.
Kevin


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (just4fun)*

Kevin
Yes "Trolling" is starting a discussion with a position that is designed to provoke (typically a negative) reaction. The general rule of discussion groups like this is "Do not feed the Trolls", which I may have broken here.. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
To be fair I'm still not 100% convinced that this was the OP's original 
intent.



_Modified by mark_d_drake at 8:21 PM 5-1-2007_


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## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*

Hey Mark
Like to add my thanks to those of Kevin above and many others for the great work that you and Michael do on this forum and I was not inferring any intent on your part merely a possible perception.
Please keep up the good work. Even if you don't want to drive a BMW


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (sydeos)*

Kevin, Leigh
Thanks for the words of support. Leigh I seem to remember that you're an airline pilot, do you drive the bus domestically or international. If international do you ever make it to SFO...
-M


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## sydeos (Dec 30, 2006)

*Re: (mark_d_drake)*

Hey Mark
Mainly fly international sectors but the B767 operation in Qantas on goes as far west as Honolulu at the moment. About 8 or 9 years ago we went to both LAX and SFO. They are currently serviced by the B747-400 which I am not flying at this time.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: (sydeos)*

Well if ever you make it up to SFO let me know...


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## eosluvr2b (Apr 22, 2007)

*Re: '08 eos (archiea)*

Good advice - thanx!!!








I had not heard about the $3K, so that is good news. I am not in a huge hurry, in fact I am beginning to consider a '08 Jetta TDI just because of the gas mileage. I just can't help but want an eos with my heart and better mileage with my head.... So, I figure I will make myself wait and see what happens after the summer.
Meanwhile, I will chill and have a couple







s
-Lynn


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## archiea (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: (sydeos)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sydeos* »_

I come from having a Lotus Elise as my daily driver for 4 years. I realise most people don't drive the way I do








B 

hey so how was the Lotus over 4 years? any problems? in my current fantasy life, I want a toy track car to play with and I was thinking of the elise... Seems like the most bang for the buck as far as handling and, to a certain extent power when it comes to HP per lb. plus the interior looks like a proper race car... I just wish it had Ford GT style flip switches!! ;D


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