# VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Volkswagen has been selling wagons in the U.S. for over fifty straight years. Go back far enough to ads for the first Transporter, and before everyone started calling it the Microbus, VW called it "The Volkswagen Station Wagon." That line kept going until the first Type IIIs hit the market, which gave way to the Type IV, which led to the Dasher, then the Quantum and Fox wagons, and finally the Passat, which has kept the flame alive since 1990. VW brought over a handful of Jetta IV wagons from Germany, all of which sold quickly, and most of which have... *Full Story...*


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## AudiVwMeister (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

what a great looking machine. the extra 50lbs in the rear doenst sound like much but i'd bet it makes a sizable differance. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gti dreamn (May 18, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

soo, if I read the article correctly, the 2.0T SEL can be had with a manual...
is this correct? Granted, it will start at a "hefty" $26K, but I'm sre it can still be had for under $30 as long as options are kept in check.
the SE = 2.5
the SEL = 2.0T
what trim will the TDI be available in - SE or SEL - or will it just be called TDI?
I'm glad to see manual and DSG transmissions available in with all engines.


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## anthonymindel (Dec 8, 2007)

The new Jetta Sports Wagon is a stunner...very classy looking,while still being sporty.
They should sell like hot cakes for Volkswagen.


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## kda33 (Jan 27, 2005)

Funny looking at the picture there is no jetta wagen from the MK4 platform


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## colab76 (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: (kda33)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kda33* »_Funny looking at the picture there is no jetta wagen from the MK4 platform








X2 I was like WTF? seeing how that is what i drive, i kinda wanted to see them side by side...oh well. i'm also guessing that these will go like hotcakes. i know i want one! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 155VERT83 (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

Good job VW!


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## mister_g60 (Feb 25, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

man I want the TDI! 6-speed manual 4Motion TDI would be a dream come true (but probably way too expensive).


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## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (mister_g60)*

id like to see it a coupe http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mnman (Apr 20, 2000)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (-skidmarks-)*

Just like a woman:
I don't like the rear, so it's a no go for me!


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (mnman)*

Ditto, the rear end is kinda awkward looking. Like VW took the Mk5 styling way out there from the Mk4, and everyone was like woah. And now getting use to it, they did it again with this thing. Hmmmm....


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## ShockerWorthy (Dec 8, 2007)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (SAVwKO)*









This is the opel wagon...they have the same look when it comes to the tail lights..kind of awkward but hey its still a nice car


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## Bora Jon (May 31, 2007)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (colabrese)*

I want one of these with a TDI, DSG, and 4motion. and I hope that it comes with a little lower stance with a "sport" package, because as much as I like it it looks a little 4x4-ish.


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## rexxmann (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (colabrese)*


_Quote, originally posted by *colabrese* »_








This is the opel wagon...they have the same look when it comes to the tail lights..kind of awkward but hey its still a nice car

I like the way the tail light is seperated from the rear window on the Jetta instead of right up against it on the Opel. I think it looks really sharp, and certainly "looks" more expensive than ~$25k.


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## MontoyaF1 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (anthonymindel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *anthonymindel* »_The new Jetta Sports Wagon is a stunner...very classy looking,while still being sporty.
They should sell like hot cakes for Volkswagen.

I guess I must be weird, because I think that the MkV Jetta wagon is now the blandest looking car VW makes. I thought the sedan was bad, but whatever character it did have was lost when making it a wagon.
Oh well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## JETwagen (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*


_Quote »_Popping open the rear hatch presents you with 32.8 cubic feet of carpeted cargo storage behind the seats — actually less room than the last-generation Jetta wagon thanks to the rake of the SportWagen's rear window.

I found this interesting and rather love how much my MkIV hauls. Also, I'm not too keen on the pricing, I'd want the 2.0T but I'm not interested in paying $26k+ at this time for a vehicle of this size. But my feelings could change.


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## JETwagen (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (vwsr2cool)*

And one more thing, that new chrome grille STILL hasn't grown on me, give me the GLI/GTI grille and I'd be happier. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dirtycountry (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (vwsr2cool)*

any chance we could get a photoshop of one of these dumped out (air ride low) w/ some nice wheels on it?........please


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## doubleokeim (Mar 26, 2004)

Surprised the back seats do not fold down flat.
Alright... I looked at the picture in more detail and realized that they might be able to.










_Modified by doubleokeim at 12:53 PM 4-4-2008_


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## elicitvr6 (Jan 10, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (NH_Bora+)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NH_Bora+* »_I want one of these with a TDI, DSG, and 4motion.

agreed. If I start saving my pennies now I might have enough for a nice used one by the time I'm 40















No pricing listed for the TDI version though. Anyone know what they'll be coming in at?


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## elicitvr6 (Jan 10, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

and sorry, but this line just made me cringe, and then giggle a little bit:

_Quote »_...That makes the SportWagen able to swallow larger loads than small SUVs...


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (elicitvr6)*

^







I guarantee that was on purpose. How could you even reread that in your editting session and not stop like eeerr...wtf? Laugh, and then say leave it, it's a good sexual joke.


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## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (gti dreamn)*








@ ^ - I can neither confirm nor deny that was intentional.









_Quote, originally posted by *gti dreamn* »_soo, if I read the article correctly, the 2.0T SEL can be had with a manual...
is this correct?
what trim will the TDI be available in - SE or SEL - or will it just be called TDI?

You nailed it. S and SE models use the 2.5, and SELs will be the 2.0T. The 2.5 can be had with a five-speed manual or six-speed Tiptronic. The 2.0T and TDI can be mated to a six-speed manual or six-speed DSG.
TDI is a trim level unto itself, and includes the cold weather package (heated front seats and washer nozzles), premium sound package, and a 115-volt power outlet. I wish I had pricing on the TDI, but VW hasn't finalized it yet.


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## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

*Re: (doubleokeim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *doubleokeim* »_Surprised the back seats do not fold down flat.

That was an auto show picture. Someone didn't flip the lower cushions forward before folding the seatback. With everything out of the way, the wagon's cargo hold looks like this:


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## spongebob_squarepants (Jul 4, 2001)

Trying to decide between the SportWagen, Tiguan and Passat Wagon for my next VW in the next few months.
The new TDI sounds excellent. Is it gonna be even more fuel efficient than existing TDI's?


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## doubleokeim (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
That was an auto show picture. Someone didn't flip the lower cushions forward before folding the seatback. With everything out of the way, the wagon's cargo hold looks like this:

Good to hear. Although in that picture I do not see the lower cushions at all. Appears that they have been removed. Probably just the angle of the picture.


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## 76 Golf GTi (Aug 24, 2001)

*Re: (spongebob_squarepants)*

TDI 4Motion w/6M Please.


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## garethusa (Jan 13, 2003)

I doubt anyone is going to pay for a TDI 4Motion with 6M much less DSG in a SEL for the size of this car......
Well except those who fork over the $30K+ for those R32s......


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## movement (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*









Here it is rockin the Sportec's!


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## SAVwKO (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (movement)*

^mmmm....I do need to get myself a Mk5 this summer for a company test car. A dumped wagon with a BT would be ill eh? Even use it as the utility vehicle on our way to shows with all that storage space for tools!!!


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## bobaka (Mar 18, 2008)

looks good in black


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## gtimagic (Feb 13, 2002)

the 2nd best looking VW in its current line up IMO. the CC is 1st Passat.
The red show pics look to be from last years NYIAS. 
There are a few snaps of it in this gallery from NYIAS 08' 
http://web.mac.com/thedubnutz/....html
The Tiguan is pictured as well. The models displayed were kinda boring IMO.


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## GREGSGTI 1.8T (May 3, 2002)

*Re: (gtimagic)*









great example of cargo space. 
more room for Junk in the trunk FTW


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## z_gti_z (Sep 28, 2006)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

Will a fill up at any diesel station be alright for the new, advanced TDI? Any type of fuel restrictions?
I really hope that they recognize the demand for a 4motion wagon. Bring it.


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## sucking chest wound (Mar 22, 2000)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

Can we have a serious discussion about the sale of the TDI variation of this vehicle in CARB states (e.g. Massachusetts)? Is it REALLY going to happen?


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (z_gti_z)*

All stations in the US should have ultra-low sulfur Diesel, by now.
I believe VW currently limits Biodiesel usage to 5% admixture, on the new engines.
Good to hear that the Diesel comes standard with the cold-weather package - anything else would make no sense.


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## a2gtinut (Dec 2, 1999)

*Re: (GREGSGTI 1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GREGSGTI 1.8T* »_








great example of cargo space. 
more room for Junk in the trunk FTW

"safety"


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## tabaird (Oct 4, 2004)

*TDI Dealer Markup?*

Anyone want to start placing bets on how much VW dealers will be marking up the price of the new TDI's?


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## gtimagic (Feb 13, 2002)

the 'bluetec' tdi wil be 50 state legal. Most diesel stations have already converted to the newer low sulfur diesel that must be used.
I doubt VW will offer this in 4motion as that has always been reserved for the upscale models here in the states. 
VR & AWD are Passat options.
"americans dont like wagons or hatchbacks'' as it is believed already. They can have the Tiguan/Q5/3, etc. 
Gotta head to Audi ($) for AWD in a similar sized wagon. 
Although I belive 4motion, 6spd or even DSG w/ 2.0T would be a great seller/car. I just ended my GLI lease and got a auto A6 Avant Quattro. I did look at the Sportwagen the last 2 NY autoshows & the Tiguan.


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## jettaway91 (Dec 14, 2000)

*Re: (kda33)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kda33* »_Funny looking at the picture there is no jetta wagen from the MK4 platform









x3 I guess no one has seen the size of the thread in the MKIV Forums, such devoted members!!
I've had my name on the waiting list since I test drove the new R32. Probably heard one thing a car salesman would never say... "would you consider trading your tdi wagon, I wouldn't."
I wouldn't mind a new tdi with that moon-roof, but when you get the gas mileage us TDI'ers get anyway, it comes down to a new car payment. I hope it does well.


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## 180 (Feb 11, 2005)

Digging the Wagon coming in TDi, but I'd fall in love if it came with a VR6 motor. 


_Modified by 180 at 7:42 PM 4-4-2008_


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## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (180)*

I want the TDI Sportwagen - but I have a long standing policy of not buying "Rev A" of any product. I might have to break that policy since I fully expect gas prices to continue rising from here on out and our 2000 Subaru is developing expensive problems (transmission for one).
Even with diesel at $4 a gallon the TDI comes out ahead gassers if it really does get "mid fifties" gas mileage.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (85GTI)*

Also remember we just saw the seasonal peak of Diesel vs. gasoline, which occurs due to competition with heating oil.
I wonder if, like heating oil, you can pre-purchase your Diesel in the summer... that would make it way cheap. I know that in the past, several brands had such an option with regular gasoline. (Of course, I mean like a debit card that counts in gallons, not actually storing it at your home).


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## vwoxner (Nov 21, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

In Canada, the 2.5l versions are already on the lots. The Cdn pricing for the TDI is $2,300 more for all trims. I.E. Trendline 2.5L Manual is 23,475 and Trendline 2.0 TDI Manual is 25,775. Canada will not be getting the TDI's until Sept according to my local dealer.


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## gti dreamn (May 18, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (movement)*

well...looks like I may have to decide between the Saab 9-3 Sport Combi or the Jetta Sportwagon SEL
Of course, the 9-3 is best looking in the AERO trim, but at $37k, might be a bit too pricey depending on the negotiations.

_Quote, originally posted by *movement* »_


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (AudiVwMeister)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AudiVwMeister* »_what a great looking machine. the extra 50lbs in the rear doenst sound like much but i'd bet it makes a sizable differance. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

wow, only 50 more lbs?
not bad
I'd love one of these with the TDI


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_Good to hear that the Diesel comes standard with the cold-weather package - anything else would make no sense.

why's that? Just curious.


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## too_many_vws (Feb 15, 2001)

_Quote »_
VW brought over a handful of Jetta IV wagons from Germany,...

A handful? Are you kidding?







There're like six of them parked on my street alone. They're as ubiquitous as Honda Accords around here.


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## dogmavskarma (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: (garethusa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *garethusa* »_I doubt anyone is going to pay for a TDI 4Motion with 6M much less DSG in a SEL for the size of this car......
Well except those who fork over the $30K+ for those R32s......


hey, i'd be one of those people!


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## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_










i will take the oldest version.


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## GTIScottie (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (too_many_vws)*


_Quote, originally posted by *too_many_vws* »_
A handful? Are you kidding?







There're like six of them parked on my street alone. They're as ubiquitous as Honda Accords around here.

Not so sure about the "brought over here" part either, weren't they made in Mexico?


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## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

*Re: (gtimagic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtimagic* »_"americans dont like wagons or hatchbacks'' as it is believed already. They can have the Tiguan/Q5/3, etc.

And how is that ever going to change if there aren't well-equipped wagons/hatches available with ALL options?


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (Chapel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chapel* »_why's that? Just curious.


Diesels take forever to warm up. Even in much of the west and southwest it gets cold enough in the winter to make driving quite uncomfortable, if there is no heat.
There is an electric auxiliary heater, but that only helps a bit. Heated seats only take a minute or so. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## carusel (Oct 11, 2004)

*Re: (bobaka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobaka* »_looks good in black


http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Pelican18TQA4 (Dec 13, 2000)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

I noticed that the car with the beige interior has beige carpets. Is VW switching back to all beige for all the '09 cars?


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## sbachmeier (Mar 2, 1999)

*Re: (a2gtinut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *a2gtinut* »_
"safety"









Speaking of safety: while that sexy panoramic sunroof is way cool, I worry about the structural integrity of the car for handling crash load distributions in a severe side impact or in a rollover. Being old and old-school, I'd like to see more of a structural brace connecting the top of the B-pillars, but maybe VW has figured out how to compensate for that. German Engineering in Da Haus, Ja? 
Having said that, this is looking to be my next car purchase (manual TDI, of course). The car I really want (Passat wagon, with manual TDI) will never arrive in North America (dumb decision, VW), so I guess I'll have to settle for a "modernized version" of my B5 wagon. Not a bad choice, however -- the price point is certainly attractive (a hell of a lot cheaper that the Saab 9-3 SportCombi that would be my money-is-no-object next choice)...



_Modified by sbachmeier at 9:48 AM 4-6-2008_


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## hallowsleeve (Feb 10, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

Add 4-motion and I'll take a fully loaded SEL in a heartbeat!!! I would definitely do whatever I would have to in order to get out of my lease I just started in December and get into one of those!


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## FlyBy (May 27, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (SAVwKO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SAVwKO* »_^mmmm....I do need to get myself a Mk5 this summer for a company test car. A dumped wagon with a BT would be ill eh? Even use it as the utility vehicle on our way to shows with all that storage space for tools!!!

Doooo eeeet Mike, the wagon is back


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## John Edward (Nov 30, 2001)

*Re: (kda33)*

Yeah. WTF?


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## bobaka (Mar 18, 2008)

*4motion Sportwagen*

yes hello VW. I would like AWD Sportwagen please!
Rather have this than Tiguan I think...


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## JETwagen (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (GTIScottie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIScottie* »_
Not so sure about the "brought over here" part either, weren't they made in Mexico?

From my understanding, ALL MkIV Jetta Wagons where shipped here from Germany (I know mine was







) and in releative terms, there were only a handful brought over (compared to the number of sadens that were sold), to find six on one street I would say is unusual, but not completely unlikely.


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

damn, thats alot of freakin luggage. 
not feelin the rear, but i'd still hit it!
i love the new interior, probably from the EOS. 
and i thought the diesel was going to be mated to a 7spd DSG?


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## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (sucking chest wound)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sucking chest wound* »_Can we have a serious discussion about the sale of the TDI variation of this vehicle in CARB states (e.g. Massachusetts)? Is it REALLY going to happen?

Unless some ham-fisted legislation or regulation gets pushed through between now and when the TDIs go on sale, the engine is supposed to be available in every state (and commonwealth, natch).


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## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (mujjuman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mujjuman* »_and i thought the diesel was going to be mated to a 7spd DSG? 

Here's a screencap from the Excel file I was given:


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (mujjuman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mujjuman* »_and i thought the diesel was going to be mated to a 7spd DSG? 

VW's current dry-clutch 7-speed DSG is only rated for the lower torque of the smaller (European) engines. It was never planned to go into the 140-170hp Diesels.


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_
VW's current dry-clutch 7-speed DSG is only rated for the lower torque of the smaller (European) engines. It was never planned to go into the 140-170hp Diesels.

oh ok thanks guys. 
i didnt know it was dry clutch either








the DSG used in the 2.0T and the 3.2VR is wet-clutch, correct?
also, did they fill all that luggage in with the rear seats down or up?


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (mujjuman)*

There is a significant benefit of the dry-clutch DSG: basically, no mileage penalty versus (a well-driven) manual. The DSG we know still has a 10% mileage penalty, according to volkswagen.de released figures. Perhaps we'll see it in a couple of years also in the higher-torque engines. I should add that I am not sure about the details of the DSG that is going into the latest longitudinally-mounted Audi engines.
And yes, the DSG we know is wet-clutch - which means virtually no degradation over time, albeit at the cost of ~$1,600 lifetime ($400 service cost at 40,000, 80,000, 120,000, and 160,000 miles assuming 200,000 miles total). Those are the main reasons I want a manual Diesel: initial purchase price, mileage penalty, and 40,000 mile service add up to well above $5,000 lifetime, using realistic scenarios. Even if you replace the clutch once, on the manual. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (feels_road)*

Excellent! Can't wait to get a TDI+DSG
Hope I can test-drive the 2.5L soon...


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## lschw1 (Apr 21, 2003)

*Given past history...*

Until a dealer can sell a Jetta SportWagen, I won't believe they will ever be available in the US. Articles, pictures, reviews, and unfulfilled corporate announcements are not vehicles. VW has a limited number of models, so it is surprising they fumbled in 2006 by eliminating the popular Jetta wagon. It has been three years and VW still has not begun to recover those lost sales. This car is late, late, late!


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Given past history... (lschw1)*

Don't worry, it will be here before no time, with three engine choices to boot.
But yes, somehow VW thought (even in Europe!) that the wagon segment was covered by the Passat, various Skodas, and Caddies etc.
For some reason it did not dawn on them until about three years ago that the Golf/Jetta wagon form factor and size are actually desirable and wanted. I have no clue as to why, except perhaps a bit of wishful thinking, that anyone planning to step beyond the industrial and spartan options would go right to the Passat wagon. Of course, we all know that the Passat wagon is almost identical in size (especially, for American rough measures) --- so hey why not, many folks would prefer the lighter, more nimble, and less expensive version...
Yet, as a consequence, looks like we won't see leather in this one. But, I can live with that.


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## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_There is a significant benefit of the dry-clutch DSG: basically, no mileage penalty versus (a well-driven) manual.

I seem to recall that the mileage rating on the wet-clutch DSG that is available in the US right now is higher than it is for the manual six-speed version, at least in the GTI/GLI. This was at least true for the "old" EPA mileage test standards, and looking at the specs on cars.com seems to indicates that I'm remembering correctly; the specs for GTIs in general state 23-25mpg city, 32 highway for 2007 and 25/32 for Fahrenheit, which was DSG only, wasn't it?
Either way, though, I'm certain that the DSG gets mileage as good as (at LEAST) a six-speed in the hands of someone who knows how to drive a car economically.
Regardless, I'm glad to know that there will in fact be a TDI version and I too hope they hit dealers on time. I won't be buying one myself, but I love wagons and hatches (naturally) and more wagon/hatch choices are only a good thing, and I'm hoping that a friend, who does want to get a higher-mileage wagon in the future, will be able to get his hands on a TDI version at some point.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (Buran)*

Current MPG ratings from http://www.vw.com (these are using the updated EPA test methods)
2008/2009 GTI
manual: 21/29
DSG: 21/29
GLI
manual: 21/29
DSG: 22/29
Jetta S
manual: 21/29
auto: 21/29
Passat
2.0T manual: 21/29
2.0T auto: 19/28
VR6: 17/26
4-motion: 16/24
Passat wagon
2.0T manual: 23/32
2.0T auto: 22/31
4-motion: 18/26

I'm not sure why the wagon styles are more fuel efficient - the drag coefficient is lower on the sedan, and the wagon even weighs more. Is this an error on the vw.com site?



_Modified by phatvw at 11:09 AM 4-9-2008_


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Given past history... (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_Don't worry, it will be here before no time, with three engine choices to boot.
But yes, somehow VW thought (even in Europe!) that the wagon segment was covered by the Passat, various Skodas, and Caddies etc.
For some reason it did not dawn on them until about three years ago that the Golf/Jetta wagon form factor and size are actually desirable and wanted. I have no clue as to why, except perhaps a bit of wishful thinking, that anyone planning to step beyond the industrial and spartan options would go right to the Passat wagon. Of course, we all know that the Passat wagon is almost identical in size (especially, for American rough measures) --- so hey why not, many folks would prefer the lighter, more nimble, and less expensive version...
Yet, as a consequence, looks like we won't see leather in this one. But, I can live with that. 

who the f works at VW


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (Buran)*

Hey, I am just quoting Euro specs, which for Diesel engines at least have been pretty true in my experience.
BTW, I have a picture of you on a wine and castle tour along the Rhine river:


----------



## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

Don't care for wine, but I'll take the cheese.








I think this is one of the aerodynamic test articles that was used for landing tests, much like our Enterprise.
I've saved the pic -- thanks!


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (Buran)*

lol nice


----------



## HighGs (Feb 11, 2007)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*

I've also noticed the mileage incongruity.  I think something is screwed up.


----------



## HighGs (Feb 11, 2007)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

I can't find the official measurements for the GTI or Jetta with the seats folded forward so this is probably and apples to oranges comparison; but I'm loosing some square footage on the cargo volume somewhere. It seems as though the Sportwagen should have at least 15 more sq ft. Yet it is only 14" longer and the tailgate does have quite a slope. I would imagine that will make all the difference in throwing a mountain bike in the back. Price wise though, it seems like a loaded SportWagen will come in less than a loaded GTI 4-door. 
Anyway, if anyone knows how they are measured differently, I'd be curious to know.
GTI
----
rear seat 42.9
cargo 15.1
68
Jetta
-----
rear seat 40.5
cargo 16
66.5
SportWagen
--------------
seat up cargo; 32.8
seat down cargo; 66.9


_Modified by tbrodie at 2:59 PM 4-12-2008_


----------



## mercury26 (Aug 20, 2004)

I hope they bring it over with 4Motion (AWD).
Cheers,
Chuck


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (djsaint)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djsaint* »_I hope they bring it over with 4Motion (AWD).
Cheers,
Chuck

haha yeah right. sadly.







it would be nice though


----------



## 221698 (Aug 11, 2005)

What's going on with QC in Pueblo. Didn't the Mexico built cars have iffy reliability/assembly? At least, I was hearing that when the J/G V's were first showing up.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (khanthant)*

Mexico's VW quality has been on par with Germany's for at least the past 14-15 years. I should know. >150,000 trouble-free, low cost miles. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Today, the same robots assemble the same pieces on the same lines. No reason to worry. Be glad that we have a loophole access to the otherwise highly valued currency market.


----------



## B5Brent (Dec 3, 2004)

*4 Motion*

The prospect of 4Motion was discussed at the sportwagen press conference. It was acknowledged to be possible but not in the immediate plans. It looks like VW is not expecting big numbers the first year and wants to keep model choices limited to MT/DSG, and trimlines S, SE, SEL. I would imagine that 4Motion would be available in 2010 or 2011 if sales go well.


----------



## gti dreamn (May 18, 2002)

*Re: 4 Motion (B5Brent)*

yes, but limited choices with no real standout will equal limited sales*.
* - reference 2008 R32
I thought the idea with a new car model was to get the people excited, like the new Charger. Dodge brought out the Halo car first to get the public excited and move units. The lesser models will follow and sell based on the hype created by the Halo car.
A 4-motion Jetta Sportwagon would really get the car noticed and people would at least go look at it. If they couldn't buy the 4-motion example, maybe they would be so impressed that they would go for the 2wd trim that fit their budget.
Bring over 100-200 4-motion Jetta Sportwagons to augment the lauch of the Sportwagon - 50% DSG and 50% MT. Use the Halo car to gain attention. I'll let VW sort out the color arrangement and trim level.


----------



## idiamin (Apr 17, 2008)

I like it and will most likely replace my 98 Cabrio with the Sportswagon TDI. I was really interested in the Tiguan but this seem like a more practical vehicle for my needs.


----------



## hotdamngti (Aug 1, 2007)

TDI, I'd hit it.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (tbrodie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tbrodie* »_I can't find the official measurements for the GTI or Jetta with the seats folded forward so this is probably and apples to oranges comparison; but I'm loosing some square footage on the cargo volume somewhere. It seems as though the Sportwagen should have at least 15 more sq ft. Yet it is only 14" longer and the tailgate does have quite a slope. I would imagine that will make all the difference in throwing a mountain bike in the back. Price wise though, it seems like a loaded SportWagen will come in less than a loaded GTI 4-door. 
Anyway, if anyone knows how they are measured differently, I'd be curious to know.



Here are the cargo volume specs I found for European models. Note that you cannot add the "rear" volume plus "cargo" volume to get "cargo with rear seats down" volume. They are doing something different when they measure it. There is no SAE standard for measuring "cargo with seats down".


*MkIV 4-door Golf*
up 18
down 41.8

*MkV 4-door GTI*
up 14.7
down 46

*MkIV Jetta Wagon*
up 34.0
down 51.9

*Audi A3 (MkV)*
13.1
54.6

*MkV Golf Estate/Jetta SportWagen*
up = 19.8
down = 54.7

*B5 Passat Wagon*
up = 39
down = 56.5

*B6/B7 Audi A4 Wagon*
up 27.8
down 59

*C5 Audi A6 Wagon*
up 33.9
down 63.8

*C6 Audi A6 Wagon*
up 36.4
down 73.2

*B6 Passat Wagon*
up 35.8
down 73.8???? this is not published in any official VW documentation. I suspect 73.8 is NOT correct.

When the Sportwagen comes to my VW dealer, I'll get them to park a 4-door GTI and a Passat Wagon next to it. Then I'll go over all three interiors with a tape measure. Maybe I'll bring my mountain bike, some golf clubs, and some baby strollers too...



_Modified by phatvw at 4:13 PM 4-23-2008_


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*

Lower numbers are when only loaded up to the rear shelf/screen/height of the rear seat backs.


----------



## 02VDubGTI (Apr 4, 2002)

does anyone know what the width and depth of the cargo(boot) space is in the SportWagen (Golf Estate)? 
(ie: can i easily fit a stroller in there and still have room?)


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (02VDubGTI)*

Euro Golf Estate (=Jetta Wagen) CARGO VOLUME
==================================

Länge, Sitzbank aufgestellt / umgeklappt [length, back seats upright/ folded], 1072mm / 1700mm [42"/67"]

Größte Breite [largest width], 1292mm [50.9"]

Breite zwischen den Radkästen [narrowest width between wheels], 1005mm [39.6"]

Höhe, [height] 468mm [19.1"]

Ladehöhe bis Himmel [height to roof], 832mm [32.8"] (bei Entfall Gepäckraumboden [without bottom insert]: 932mm) [36.7"]

Ladehöhe bis Panoramaschiebedach, [height to sun roof] 801mm [31.5"] (bei Entfall Gepäckraumboden: [without bottom insert] 901mm) [35.5"]

Gepäckraumvolumen [cargo volume] 505l / 1495l [17.8/52.8 ft^3] (bei Entfall Gepäckraumboden [without bottom insert]: 560l / 1550l [19.8/54.7 ft^3])
(first measurement is to back cover/seatback height; second measurement when loaded to roof line)

I believe there is a bottom insert that makes the loading area even, and that can be taken out, if desired.


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (feels_road)*

sweet


----------



## 02VDubGTI (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_Euro Golf Estate (=Jetta Wagen) CARGO VOLUME

THANK YOU!!


----------



## MYTHOS (Dec 4, 2001)

*Re:*

The German specs for Cargo Volume may not be the same of North American cars as they will most likely need to remove some padding from the seats to accommodate the larger, overweight passengers. Probably same goes for fuel economy.






















J/K


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Re: (MYTHOS)*

^^ ROFL


----------



## SHAG WAGON (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: Re: (mujjuman)*

I have to see if I do the upgrade from this









to the MKV Wagon.


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Re: (SHAG WAGON)*

Getta Wagen?


----------



## GTIScottie (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (tabaird)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tabaird* »_Anyone want to start placing bets on how much VW dealers will be marking up the price of the new TDI's?

Anyone have an opinion on how the TDI in any model will sell now that diesel is so expensive?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (GTIScottie)*

Diesel is still cheaper per mile.
And is cheaper per mile per pound of car/cargo moved.


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Diesel is still cheaper per mile.
And is cheaper per mile per pound of car/cargo moved.



x2, and it will stay like that as long as diesel cars get 40mpg+ and gas cars get much lower....
i hope that VW brings the diesel-electric hybrid here (70mpg)


----------



## SHAG WAGON (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: Re: (mujjuman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mujjuman* »_Getta Wagen? 

What's that???


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Re: (SHAG WAGON)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SHAG WAGON* »_
What's that???










you have one!!!
A Jetta wagon with a front end swap with a Golf/GTI


----------



## SHAG WAGON (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: Re: (mujjuman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mujjuman* »_
you have one!!!
A Jetta wagon with a front end swap with a Golf/GTI











Seems like you have been in the MKIV forums way too long. 




_Modified by SHAG WAGON at 9:40 AM 5-14-2008_


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Re: (SHAG WAGON)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SHAG WAGON* »_










Seems like you have been in the MKIV forums way too long. 
_Modified by SHAG WAGON at 9:40 AM 5-14-2008_

lol thats exactly what it is. 
and yes, i AM aware of the Golf Variant, i knew about that years ago.


----------



## BrockGTi (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

IMO these wagons are hideous. But I never liked MKV's anyway. Those taillights look like a Civic's from the side.


----------



## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (GTIScottie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIScottie* »_
Anyone have an opinion on how the TDI in any model will sell now that diesel is so expensive?


Start with the soon to arrive Jetta TDI (and wagen) getting mid 40s mpg city and mid 50s. I SUGGEST YOU READ PREVIOUS SENTENCE AGAIN. Yup, mid 40s and mid 50s! Amazing!








Traditional wisdom says diesels get about 30 to 35% better mileage than gassers. With diesel fuel now priced about 10 to 20% higher than gas - that alone makes diesel a NET winner.
But, HOLD THE PRESSES. Mid 40s and mid 50s is about 100% better mileage (or more) than many of us get now in gas vehiles. Mid 40s and mid 50s make even hybrids look like a well intended mistake given the high extra cost of hybrids and their other disadvantages.
This is why those in the know - including many here on VWVORTEX - are queing up for the soon to arrive TDIs including over 300 folks at my local VW dealership.


----------



## kjclow (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_This is why those in the know - including many here on VWVORTEX - are queing up for the soon to arrive TDIs including over 300 folks at my local VW dealership.









Where is the end of the line? I'm ready for a new tdi today


----------



## GTIScottie (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_

Start with the soon to arrive Jetta TDI (and wagen) getting mid 40s mpg city and mid 50s. I SUGGEST YOU READ PREVIOUS SENTENCE AGAIN. Yup, mid 40s and mid 50s! Amazing!








Traditional wisdom says diesels get about 30 to 35% better mileage than gassers. With diesel fuel now priced about 10 to 20% higher than gas - that alone makes diesel a NET winner.
But, HOLD THE PRESSES. Mid 40s and mid 50s is about 100% better mileage (or more) than many of us get now in gas vehiles. Mid 40s and mid 50s make even hybrids look like a well intended mistake given the high extra cost of hybrids and their other disadvantages.
This is why those in the know - including many here on VWVORTEX - are queing up for the soon to arrive TDIs including over 300 folks at my local VW dealership.









So would you assume that the new Jetta and Sportwagen have around a 14-15 gallon tank? Multiplying $4.50 (which I believe I've seen diesel for around 4.49 a gallon) and assume either vehicle has around a 15 gallon tank, and project two fill ups in a thirty day month, which I think is possible considering how much you do or don't drive, I come out with a figure close to what I'm paying to fill my GTI with premium right now, so I don't see the monetary savings.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (GTIScottie)*


----------



## carma (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (GTIScottie)*

Mid-40's in the city is unreal, considering what I pay for gas just going around town. I get like 18MPG MAX in city driving. That's about two and a half times better gas mileage!


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

I think the problem is going to be the supply of Diesel fuel:
http://www.fcnp.com/national_c....html
Ironically it is the massively increased use of Diesel in Europe that may cause problems for Diesel users in the U.S. This situation might change, but for now even with the efficiency advantage I'm staying away from Diesel. Efficiency doesn't help if you can't get fuel.
BTW, anybody notice that the VW website has taken all mention of Diesel engines off of the Sportwagen page? Seems odd.


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## SHAG WAGON (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (mujjuman)*

It sucks to that the MKV Jetta/GLI, GTI/Rabbit, and Jetta Wagon don't offer a 6-cylinder motor.

The 2.0t is alright but I still take a VR6 over the 2.0t.

I think that's one thing that is stopping me from jumping on a MKV.
(Other than the Passat but I don't like the way the Passats look at all)


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (85GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85GTI* »_I think the problem is going to be the supply of Diesel fuel:
http://www.fcnp.com/national_c....html
Ironically it is the massively increased use of Diesel in Europe that may cause problems for Diesel users in the U.S. This situation might change, but for now even with the efficiency advantage I'm staying away from Diesel. Efficiency doesn't help if you can't get fuel.

It's not Europe - timing does not match. The Diesel car fraction has been high for years (without ill effect), but recently the fraction of new Diesel sales has actually decreased.
Given the economic importance of jet fuel, heating oil, and Diesel for transportation (and, conversely, the relative minor usage for private cars), I believe that even a difference of 20% over gas is not economically sustainable, in the long run. People will use less (in fact, they already have: middle distillate usage has decreased in the US in the first quarter, while gas usage has increased), insulate their homes better, fly less, and buy less stuff that is expensive because of transportation. Conversely, refineries can and will produce more (many planned refinery updates include provisions for a higher fraction of Diesel production).
Of course, in the US there are also large local variations. In my small town, the three lowest Diesel stations are at $4.59, whereas the lowest name brand premium is $4.30 --- only about a 5% difference. Compare that to 35% or 50% or more better mileage with the TDI.


_Quote, originally posted by *85GTI* »_
BTW, anybody notice that the VW website has taken all mention of Diesel engines off of the Sportwagen page? Seems odd.


There is still a link to this on the front page: mid 40s city, mid 50s highway mileage.


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (feels_road)*

What you say about increased production might come true, but I'm not a risk taker so no TDI for me. I was really looking forward to getting a TDI Sportwagen, but the way things are now with Diesel it's a no go. I guess I'm gonna have to go with some higher mpg gasser. Too bad VW doesn't have any.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (85GTI)*

Perhaps you are a risk taker by reacting to short-term price fluctuations, rather than looking at the historic prices and the fact that Diesel is cheaper to produce than gas.








I.e., everything equal, Diesel fuel should be cheaper, as long as it can be produced in sufficient ratio with respect to gas (which should be the case at least for the next 15 to 20 years --- after that, demand is difficult to forecast). 








PS:  The 2.0TFSI (now "TSI") gets pretty good mileage - many report way over 30mpg highway, but I know what you are talking about, see my sig.
If Audi's variable valve-lift gets implemented in VWs, there could be a 1.8TFSI on the horizon with good mileage and performance equal to the 2.0, or a 1.6TFSI with performance equal to the 2.5.

_Modified by feels_road at 2:21 AM 5-19-2008_


_Modified by feels_road at 5:02 PM 5-19-2008_


----------



## airbalancer (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: (feels_road)*

Has any one drive a Sportwagon with the sunroof opened?
Was it very drafty with the roof opened?


----------



## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (GTIScottie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIScottie* »_
So would you assume that the new Jetta and Sportwagen have around a 14-15 gallon tank? Multiplying $4.50 (which I believe I've seen diesel for around 4.49 a gallon) and assume either vehicle has around a 15 gallon tank, and project two fill ups in a thirty day month, which I think is possible considering how much you do or don't drive, I come out with a figure close to what I'm paying to fill my GTI with premium right now, so I don't see the monetary savings. 

With Premium gas at about 3.99/gal and diesel at $4.50/gal that means diesel costs 51 cents more per gallon which is about 13% more than premium. If you get the spec 21 mpg city on your GTI
and the sportwagen TDI gets the announced mid 40's city (say 45 mpg) you would be getting 24 more miles out of every gallon of fuel you use in city driving. That is a 114 percent increase in miles per gallon vs that 13% increase in price per gallon - a tremendous net gain for driving the TDI vs your GTi.
If I lost you with that arithmetic, try this: Your GTI's 15 gallon tank now takes you about 315 miles (21mpg x 15gallons = 315miles) of city driving and, since you said 2 fill ups per month, that means you can travel total 630 miles per month on your 2 fill ups. With a Sportwagen TDI you would travel 675 miles (45mpg x 15gal = 675 miles) on a SINGLE tank!!!








Two tanks of diesel would take you 1350 miles of city driving which is more than double the distance your 2 tanks of gas takes you now.
So the choice is yours. Pay $119.70 ($3.99/gal x 15 gal x 2 = $119.70) to fill you GTI tank twice a month with gas and travel up to 630 miles or Pay $67.50 ($4.50/gal x 15 gal) and you would only have to fill a Sportwagen TDI tank once a month and you could go 45 miles further.
Unless my arithmetic is way off, this is A MAJOR NO BRAINER. TDIs Rule.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
With Premium gas at about 3.99/gal and diesel at $4.50/gal that means diesel costs 51 cents more per gallon which is about 13% more than premium. If you get the spec 21 mpg city on your GTI
and the sportwagen TDI gets the announced mid 40's city (say 45 mpg) you would be getting 24 more miles out of every gallon of fuel you use in city driving. That is a 114 percent increase in miles per gallon vs that 13% increase in price per gallon - a tremendous net gain for driving the TDI vs your GTi.
If I lost you with that arithmetic, try this: Your GTI's 15 gallon tank now takes you about 315 miles (21mpg x 15gallons = 315miles) of city driving and, since you said 2 fill ups per month, that means you can travel total 630 miles per month on your 2 fill ups. With a Sportwagen TDI you would travel 675 miles (45mpg x 15gal = 675 miles) on a SINGLE tank!!!








Two tanks of diesel would take you 1350 miles of city driving which is more than double the distance your 2 tanks of gas takes you now.
So the choice is yours. Pay $119.70 ($3.99/gal x 15 gal x 2 = $119.70) to fill you GTI tank twice a month with gas and travel up to 630 miles or Pay $67.50 ($4.50/gal x 15 gal) and you would only have to fill a Sportwagen TDI tank once a month and you could go 45 miles further.
Unless my arithmetic is way off, this is A MAJOR NO BRAINER. TDIs Rule.























Thank you! The rest of us who "get it" were too lazy to write all that


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*

TDI Powah


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*

Assuming the numbers on VW's web site are correct, and the 2009 TDI EPA numbers are way off, as usual for TDIs...


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (feels_road)*

The EPA numbers are massively disappointing if correct. VW had "mid fifties" on their site at one time for Sportwagen highway mileage. EPA is stating 41 mpg highway on their site. That is a huge difference - the EPA ratings have never been that far off.
Something ain't right - let's hope VW prevails.
BTW oil hit $133 today. Creepy.


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (85GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *85GTI* »_T
BTW oil hit $133 today. Creepy.

sucks. 
so are EPA's numbers usually much lower than actual numbers for TDIs?


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (mujjuman)*

Typically, 18%, by EPA's own admittance. More if you know how to drive a turbo Diesel...


----------



## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_Typically, 18%, by EPA's own admittance. More if you know how to drive a turbo Diesel... 

OK, I'am curious. How do you drive a turbo Diesel?


----------



## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Thank you! The rest of us who "get it" were too lazy to write all that









Glad to do it. Many folks are so busy that they simply look at the higher price stations are currently charging for diesel and conclude that diesels are a bad deal. As you know, that is a bad mistake.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
OK, I'am curious. How do you drive a turbo Diesel? 

Just watch a truck driver.
The reason *truckers get such good fuel economy per mile per pound* is because they rarely use their brakes. Every time you use your brakes you're wasting energy. Do anything you can to drive safely without the brake pedal and you will automatically save a HUGE amount of fuel. Just keep inertia working for you instead of against you.


----------



## JayDogg007 (May 5, 2008)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*

I suppose that there's a sweet spot with regard to the speed you drive. Longer times at the same speed maximize fuel economy as well. My Yaris gets 38 mpg with the A/C cranked cruising at 65mph on the way to work and back. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The dealership here NW Houston doesn't know anything about an arrival date for the TDI Sportwagen.


----------



## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_Assuming the numbers on VW's web site are correct, and the 2009 TDI EPA numbers are way off, as usual for TDIs...









What accounts for the HUGE difference between EPA 30/41 mpg figures and VW's estimated mid 40/50 mpg? Is VW rolling the cars down a big hill? Is EPA's new methodology even more unrealistic for diesels than their old test?
Here is my speculation on this issue. EPA mpg numbers overall were well above real world results with gas engines and below for diesel. Responding to public pressure for more realistic results, EPA made their test tougher which, in general, reduced mpg results for both gas and diesel. So EPA's figures for diesels went from low with their old test to VERY low with the new test.
Anybody else care to speculate or, even better, does anyone really know what is behind this major EPA/VW difference?


----------



## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Just watch a truck driver.
The reason *truckers get such good fuel economy per mile per pound* is because they rarely use their brakes.

Thanks for the tip. It also explains why some truckers seem to come within 1.5 inches of my rear bumper - especially on down hills even with me going 10+ mph over the speed limit.


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
Anybody else care to speculate or, even better, does anyone really know what is behind this major EPA/VW difference?
 Yeah, some of you guys with connections to VW - any word ?


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
Thanks for the tip. It also explains why some truckers seem to come within 1.5 inches of my rear bumper - especially on down hills even with me going 10+ mph over the speed limit.









x2


----------



## kjclow (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (JayDogg007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JayDogg007* »_I suppose that there's a sweet spot with regard to the speed you drive. Longer times at the same speed maximize fuel economy as well. My Yaris gets 38 mpg with the A/C cranked cruising at 65mph on the way to work and back. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The dealership here NW Houston doesn't know anything about an arrival date for the TDI Sportwagen. 

I was just discussing this with my wife. I can up my mileage by about 5 mpg by keeping the speed around 60 instead of 70 - 75. I get mid 40s in town and have hit 56 on highway, long drive on two lane state roads. Keep the cruise set at 60 and cycled air on and off as needed. One other trick for a standard tannny with the TDI is shifting at the top of the performance peak, which for my beetle is around 2k.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (kjclow)*

Official VW dealership model and options lineup for the Sportwagen. So the TDI sportwagons go into production mid-July (work week #27) and set for delivery in September/October. Looks like dealers will begin taking pre-orders towards the end of June/1st week of July.
BTW the 2009 Touareg 2 has a 3.0L 221HP V6 TDI option.




































_Modified by phatvw at 12:53 PM 6-3-2008_


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*

That's been available for over two weeks now, and is somewhat outdated and incomplete.
Just go to the VW website for the complete specs and pricing. Note that VW removed the TDI prices that were available a few days ago (TDI ~SE model, about $2,000 more expensive, but a few more features).
Also note the error with the TDI: it says no heated seats, which is clearly a typo.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (feels_road)*

Well duh, it does say 5/16/2008, but nobody else bothered to post it


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## buddahvw (May 4, 2004)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*

x2 on the TDI stuff disapearing from the site
I was lookin at it last week, now it is gone
makes me somewhat curious........ what is VW up to........


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (buddahvw)*

Here is what USED to be on the VW.com site in terms of pricing:
S 2.5L 170 hp 5-speed Manual $ 18,999
S 2.5L 170 hp 6-speed Tiptronic® $ 20,099
SE 2.5L 170 hp 5-speed Manual $ 21,349
SE 2.5L 170 hp 6-speed Tiptronic® $ 22,449
SEL 2.0T 200 hp 6-speed Manual $ 25,990
SEL 2.0T 200 hp 6-speed DSG $ 27,090
TDI 2.0L 140 hp 6-speed Manual $ 23,590
TDI 2.0L 140 hp 6-speed DSG $ 24,690


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Well duh, it does say 5/16/2008, but nobody else bothered to post it










Sure it was posted --- in the appropriate Jetta SportWagen thread in the appropriate MkV forum...










_Modified by feels_road at 3:06 PM 6-3-2008_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (feels_road)*

More updates from my VW dealer:
Wagon TDI Base model SE with manual transmission: *~$25,000*
Wagon TDI SE automatic *~$26,000*
Sedan TDI Loyalty Edition manual *~$23,500*
Sedan TDI Loyalty Edition automatic *~$24,500*
Sedans come with free lip spoiler upgrade. Oh boy!!!
Proposed 2009 TDI shipments for the whole USA:
12,000 Sedan
6500 Wagon
Expect dealers to be charging huge premiums over MSRP due to the low TDI shipment numbers. Perhaps better to wait for the Subaru?

Does this make ANY sense












































The good news is that my dealer just received their first 2.5L Sportwagen on the lot, so I might take a look at it tonight. Somehow I doubt they'll let me take it for a spin...



_Modified by phatvw at 5:00 PM 6-9-2008_


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (phatvw)*

That's about $1,400 above the prices previously posted by Volkswagen (which I still believe are largely correct --- at least until I hear from a substantiated source).








Dealers don't _charge_ a market adjustment. They _ask_ for it. Some people don't mind to pay it, others do.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_That's about $1,400 above the prices previously posted by Volkswagen (which I still believe are largely correct --- at least until I hear from a substantiated source).










http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RED WHIP (Dec 10, 2005)

nice!


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (RED WHIP)*

thanks for posting the options etc


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## Abby Rose (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 ([email protected])*

Why does the owners manuel recommend against flat towing? Is there an aftermarket kit to adapt the car to flat towing? If there is a way to tow like this will the TDI also have this capability?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (Abby Rose)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Abby Rose* »_Why does the owners manuel recommend against flat towing? Is there an aftermarket kit to adapt the car to flat towing? If there is a way to tow like this will the TDI also have this capability?

I think thats a standard warranty disclaimer for most car manufacturers.
I reckon ANY car with DSG cannot be flat-towed period - unless you disconnect the driveshafts = big pain in the ass.
But a manual transmission is a manual transmission. Throw it in neutral and you should be good to go. Only possible damage would be to the differential - so check the transmission/differential oil periodically.
There are lots of RV forums on the Internet with loads of info. Personally, I'd pony up the cash for a dolly or full trailer and get all 4 wheels off the ground. If its worth doing, its worth doing right http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*

Wife & I are also wanting a TDi wagon DSG... hope the dealer's don't totally try to screw everyone over!


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (cwescapexlt4x4)*

they will at first


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## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (cwescapexlt4x4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cwescapexlt4x4* »_Wife & I are also wanting a TDi wagon DSG... hope the dealer's don't totally try to screw everyone over!









The Sportwagen you ordered is exactly what I plan to buy.







Have you agreed on a price with your dealer? If yes, would you care to share where on the following scale that price falls:
Invoice Invoice + MSRP MSRP + "market adjustment"
I know it is a bit of a dance when negotiating price, so having actual purchase price info from fellow VORTEXers might help level the dance floor somewhat.........


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## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
I reckon ANY car with DSG cannot be flat-towed period - unless you disconnect the driveshafts = big pain in the ass. 

What is "flat towing"? The term itself coveys towing with all 4 wheels on the pavement. Is that correct? Related question, why would flat towing - or any type of towing, for that matter - be a no go?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
What is "flat towing"? The term itself coveys towing with all 4 wheels on the pavement. Is that correct? Related question, why would flat towing - or any type of towing, for that matter - be a no go?


Yep thats exactly what flat-towing is. You see a lot of folks with RV's do flat-towing because its cheaper and easier to do than 2-wheel towing or getting a proper trailer.
It will void the powertrain warranty on many cars because the manufacturer hasn't specifically tested it. You can do a lot of damage to the transmission and differential if it is done wrong. For AWD cars like the R32, I think you are REQUIRED to flat bed tow - you can't even do 2-wheel tow otherwise you void the warranty. I think any car with a locking differential is the same way - unless there is a way to un-lock the differential.


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## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Yep thats exactly what flat-towing is. You see a lot of folks with RV's do flat-towing because its cheaper and easier to do than 2-wheel towing or getting a proper trailer.
It will void the powertrain warranty on many cars because the manufacturer hasn't specifically tested it. You can do a lot of damage to the transmission and differential if it is done wrong. For AWD cars like the R32, I think you are REQUIRED to flat bed tow - you can't even do 2-wheel tow otherwise you void the warranty. I think any car with a locking differential is the same way - unless there is a way to un-lock the differential.

Thanks for the info. I just made a mental note to check my owner's manual under "towing" before letting a wrecker driver (or anyone else) tow any of my vehicles.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: TDI Dealer Markup? (feels_road)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_More updates from my VW dealer:
Wagon TDI Base model SE with manual transmission: *~$25,000*
Wagon TDI SE automatic *~$26,000*
Sedan TDI Loyalty Edition manual *~$23,500*
Sedan TDI Loyalty Edition automatic *~$24,500*




_Quote, originally posted by *feels_road* »_That's about $1,400 above the prices previously posted by Volkswagen (which I still believe are largely correct --- at least until I hear from a substantiated source).










HERNDON, VA. - Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced pricing for their eagerly anticipated Jetta TDI sedan and SportWagen starting at $21,990 and $23,590, respectively. 














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
The Sportwagen you ordered is exactly what I plan to buy.







Have you agreed on a price with your dealer? If yes, would you care to share where on the following scale that price falls:
Invoice Invoice + MSRP MSRP + "market adjustment"
I know it is a bit of a dance when negotiating price, so having actual purchase price info from fellow VORTEXers might help level the dance floor somewhat.........

M S R P is the agreement, I plainly told them there is NO WAY I will pay over MSRP


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## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (cwescapexlt4x4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cwescapexlt4x4* »_
M S R P is the agreement, I plainly told them there is NO WAY I will pay over MSRP









Thanks for the info. So far that is the best price I've heard for the new TDI.








Glad to see at least one dealer resisting the temptation to gouge. IMHO "market adjustments" are first cousin to charging $50 per sheet for plywood as the hurricane nears or $200 for a set of tire chains when the forecast calls for a blizzard. Me thinks it reveals something about the character of the seller........


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
Thanks for the info. So far that is the best price I've heard for the new TDI.








Glad to see at least one dealer resisting the temptation to gouge. IMHO "market adjustments" are first cousin to charging $50 per sheet for plywood as the hurricane nears or $200 for a set of tire chains when the forecast calls for a blizzard. Me thinks it reveals something about the character of the seller........


My local dealer says they will NOT charge over MSRP. Whats more, they are not accepting deposits until they have a confirmed allotment of cars from VW. What they will do is contact their customer list in the order in which they expressed interest in the cars. I.e. since I emailed them 6 months ago regarding "Where's my TDI", I get first dibs


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## audivwguy (May 10, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_

My local dealer says they will NOT charge over MSRP. Whats more, they are not accepting deposits until they have a confirmed allotment of cars from VW. What they will do is contact their customer list in the order in which they expressed interest in the cars. I.e. since I emailed them 6 months ago regarding "Where's my TDI", I get first dibs










Sounds like you have a fine dealer. If you weren't so far away, I'd ask for his phone # so I could get on that list.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (audivwguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audivwguy* »_
Sounds like you have a fine dealer. If you weren't so far away, I'd ask for his phone # so I could get on that list.

Indeed. Chaplins of Bellevue. I doubt they'll deal with anyone out of state because they want to be loyal to their client base here.
Well just got another email. Turns out I have second dibs. The first 5 TDI sportwagens are spoken for and ordered. Next batch of orders will probably go out in November. I hope the second batch has a xenon headlight option.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*

Checked out a 2.5L Sportwagen today. Its pretty nice. But I was actually more impressed by a 2003 Passat Wagon GLX 4motion that was on the lot. For much less money, its a much more usable car with a better balance of rear seat room and cargo space. And only a slight penalty in weight and fuel economy due to the AWD and 2.8L V6.
If only there was a diesel Passat 4motion wagon


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*

There is always room for both...








<-------------------


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (feels_road)*

hahaha agreed


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## SHAG WAGON (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Checked out a 2.5L Sportwagen today. Its pretty nice. But I was actually more impressed by a 2003 Passat Wagon GLX 4motion that was on the lot. For much less money, its a much more usable car with a better balance of rear seat room and cargo space. And only a slight penalty in weight and fuel economy due to the AWD and 2.8L V6.
If only there was a diesel Passat 4motion wagon










I got to test drive the Passat Wagon GLX 4motion before I got my hands on the Jetta Wagon GLX but the only thing I didn't like is that they only had them in automatic


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (SHAG WAGON)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SHAG WAGON* »_

I got to test drive the Passat Wagon GLX 4motion before I got my hands on the Jetta Wagon GLX but the only thing I didn't like is that they only had them in automatic 

Agreed. However my wife likes Automatic, so manual for the family car is out







I found the 5-speed Passat tiptronic to be pretty responsive; a lot better than the 4-speed Jetta slush-box in any case. But nothing beats DSG IMO. After driving DSG, I think nostalgia for manual clutch/shifter is just plain silly. (whole other debate for another thread)


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: VWvortex First Drive: 2009 Jetta SportWagen 2.5 (phatvw)*

ive driven the DSG and im not impressed by it at all.....
maybe i should have driven it harder? 
it felt like any old automatic.


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