# i am no tuner...



## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

i have played all weekend and do not have much to show for it. except that is starts and idles pretty well. i have switched out ve tables. generated them from scratch. some work better then others, but i think i just do not have something set right. so i am posting screen shots of my setup to see if someone can see something i just do not have right.
i have saved all of my attempts. 
one thing all of the tries have exhibited is this...
start out in 1st gear then instead of changing gears just hold, say 3k. the AF gauge pegs lean. (really messes up the autotune thing as well!)
ms2extra_2.1.0_release_20090627
here is what is in the ms box right now...


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

what kind of injectors are you using? are you using a distibutor? or a toothed wheel?


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

60-2 toothed wheel from 034 motorsports
digi injectors. not the g60 ones.


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

so i take it that they are low-z injectors? if they are i belive they are set wrong.


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

no. they are high impedance injectors. >10 ohms (16 if i remember right when i measured them)


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

i also have a LC1 wideband o2 sensor.


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

ok. just wanted to check. sure you just don't need to tune the ase an warmups a little more? or are you feeling it is somethin else?


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

well, no matter what it has done this...
start out in 1st gear then instead of changing gears just hold, say 3k. the AF gauge pegs lean. doesnt make a difference what tables i have in there. this has remained consistent.


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

is that afr table in a/f ratio or in lamda?


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

i am not sure. how do i tell?


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

did you set it to afr or lamda under lambda settins. in the mt configurator. i seen you also have the ego controller authority set up to 50%. that maybe a lil ecessive an were ur getting ur problems. it looks to me that it is in afr. i see right around 3k it looks like it is going way lean if it is in afr. because the ego will be trying to pull the mix to where the afr table is. do you know what map it is at when it is starting to cut out at 3k? for starters i think the controller authority should be down around 25 or less. what is in your afr table is what it will be trying to set the mix to.


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

is this what you are talking about?


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

is map represented on the left side of the table? if so, that makes sense. yes, by my settings i think the table is afr and not lambda.


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

yep thats what i was thinkin an if that box isnt checked it will display in afr. which i prefer it is easier for me.so you gotta work on that afr table. or set controller authority to 0 for the moment so that the ego isnt pulling it. but ur deffinatly going to need to work on that afr table. becouse it is going really rich then goes to really lean then back to obseanly rich then back to a ok. http://www.megamanual.com/index.html look half way down the page of this link. should give you some good reading for a lil bit an let you get that afr table a lil more up to par. just look for the afr table then you know ur in the right spot.
an yes map is on the left rpm on the bottom. i guess there is not much reading on that link but that is what you basically want. something that looks close to that. nice an uniform for the most part.


_Modified by Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 at 4:46 PM 11-15-2009_


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Jetta_Coupe4Life_81)*

thanks. i will put those numbers in that are in that picture. the afr table i posted if the one megatune generated (using generate table)
i am also a little confused about the "multiply map setting" my ms box came with it set to"multiply" but i read a setup on the dodge neon forum that it should be set to "dont multiply". after i set it to "dont multiply" it started running rich and i had to really back off the ve table. what exactly does multiply do?


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## Jetta_Coupe4Life_81 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

weill bubba. im sorry but that is far as my knowledge goes. i just switched to the extra code an dont really know what it does do. as i am fighting mine now that i switched to extra code. im sure some one will chime in in the am. you could check the manul on the inter webs for it. http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

The table generator only works correctly for VE tables. My advice is to turn off afr correction for now, just use the wideband as data for datalogging. Build a VE table starting with the table generator, get start and idle tuned, then drive while datalogging, review datalog and make changes to your VE table based on afr readings. try and get your whole operating range tuned to a nice safe 14.5 to 1 afr and THEN turn on afr correction. but first build a normal afr target table with targets ranging from 13 to 1 (WOT) to 16 to 1 (light throttle cruise)


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Prof315)*

what motor is this running on?


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Prof315)*

stock 1985 gti 1.8L


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Prof315)*

how do i turn off afr correction? set the ego correction to zero?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *msrwerks* »_how do i turn off afr correction? set the ego correction to zero?

yeah that will do it. you also might want to try 4 squirts alternating in you engine constants and turn on the bank 2 injector characteristics.(just use the same settings as the 1st bank)

_Modified by Prof315 at 2:28 AM 11-16-2009_


_Modified by Prof315 at 2:30 AM 11-16-2009_


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Prof315)*

i am also a little confused about the "multiply map setting" my ms box came with it set to"multiply" but i read a setup on the dodge neon forum that it should be set to "dont multiply". after i set it to "dont multiply" it started running rich and i had to really back off the ve table. what exactly does multiply do?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *msrwerks* »_i am also a little confused about the "multiply map setting" my ms box came with it set to"multiply" but i read a setup on the dodge neon forum that it should be set to "dont multiply". after i set it to "dont multiply" it started running rich and i had to really back off the ve table. what exactly does multiply do?

The multiply map/don't multiply map is only if you are using a secondary fuel table. You have it disabled so that setting should have no effect. The secondary fuel table is really for big turbo motors.


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Prof315)*

thanks! i am going to try all of this when i get home this afternoon. i think i am beginning to understand more how the AFR table works now with the wide band o2 sensor.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

as others may have mentioned, turn off your autotune, and turn off the closed loop if its still enabled, and just tune the table by hand. 
i think its still too early in the process for you to rely on either of those tools... once you have a VE table fleshed out, it may be time to consider turning them back on, but as i mentioned in one of your previous threads, i usually avoid autotune as it takes longer to set up than it would to just tune the map by hand in my experience
good to hear youve got the starts sorted though, thats usually the part that takes the longest - as you have to wait for the car to cool down again and go through the motions at various temperatures


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: i am no tuner... (ValveCoverGasket)*

I disagree. If you have a good afr table, leave the corrections on, and pretty big (20%) log and run it through mlv. They almost tune themselves! I had my car tuned from the MS3 basemap to 95% in just a few days of drives to and from work. 
Of course, your afr table is a mess, so fix that. Under 70kp just put it to 14.7 for now, and above that do 12.8 for 100kpa, 13.2 for 90kpa, 13.5 for 80kpa. Work on that 'lean cruise' stuff later. 
Also for spark a good rule of thumb is 1deg per hundred rpm till 3k.. 1000 = 10deg, 1500=15deg, 2k = 20, etc Sure there's a lot more to it but that'll get you running. You will want more timing at low kpa and less timing past 100kpa if you're boosted.. but if you're n/a that rule of thumb above will work.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: i am no tuner... (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I disagree. If you have a good afr table, leave the corrections on, and pretty big (20%) log and run it through mlv. They almost tune themselves! I had my car tuned from the MS3 basemap to 95% in just a few days of drives to and from work. 
Of course, your afr table is a mess, so fix that. Under 70kp just put it to 14.7 for now, and above that do 12.8 for 100kpa, 13.2 for 90kpa, 13.5 for 80kpa. Work on that 'lean cruise' stuff later. 
Also for spark a good rule of thumb is 1deg per hundred rpm till 3k.. 1000 = 10deg, 1500=15deg, 2k = 20, etc Sure there's a lot more to it but that'll get you running. You will want more timing at low kpa and less timing past 100kpa if you're boosted.. but if you're n/a that rule of thumb above will work.


I'd at least get the car drivable before turning on afr corrections. I totally agree on the afr table and spark table


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (need_a_VR6)*

thanks need_a_VR6!!! it is running much better then before. i did the afr table like you suggested set the wide band to 20 correction and drove it on 3 20 minutes trips mixing stop and go with highway. stopping in between to run the ve table through MLV. it ran better each time. now my idle is up at 1200. what is the trick to get it back to 900? when i change my afr table, i will have to go through this again, correct?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: i am no tuner... (Prof315)*

I just drive down the street the first time with it bucking and what not







Seems to work fine, just take it slow and be smart. If you have misfires just remember that the software will try and richen those spots up.. and might do it too much. Anything that looks 'stupid' after an analyze pass just smooth it back in and try again. If it does it again, check spark table, afr table and your hardware for 'stupids' as well. 
Glad it's working out though. If you want to change your AFR table you'll have to retune (unless your on new MS2/E or MS3 code with multiply AFR enabled).


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (need_a_VR6)*

would that be called "incorporate afr target" in the "more engine constants" window?
it doesnt mis fire at all now







i can honestly say it runs just as well as the cis-e that it replaced even right now. so in a couple of weeks i am hoping to have it running even better.
i really appreciate all of the help with getting this running in the right direction!


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: i am no tuner... (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I just drive down the street the first time with it bucking and what not







Seems to work fine, just take it slow and be smart. 

i like my "fast and stupid" approach better


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

Yes, however if you turn that on things will probably run very rich in the areas that aren't 14.7:1. Doing what you've been doing will tune it right back out though. 
On my own stuff I use the fast and stupid method, but I can't recommend it. I had a pp fall off due to not resetting one of my top end rev limiters and just going out and railing on it. Oops.


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (need_a_VR6)*

i will leave it off








i have searched everywhere and can not find the answer for this...
what should my "upper limit (kpa)" and "lower limit (kpa)" be set to? what do these 2 values do exactly?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

those are good settings for an N/A motor. it's for trouble shooting


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I disagree. If you have a good afr table, leave the corrections on, and pretty big (20%) log and run it through mlv. They almost tune themselves! I had my car tuned from the MS3 basemap to 95% in just a few days of drives to and from work. 
Of course, your afr table is a mess, so fix that. Under 70kp just put it to 14.7 for now, and above that do 12.8 for 100kpa, 13.2 for 90kpa, 13.5 for 80kpa. Work on that 'lean cruise' stuff later. 
Also for spark a good rule of thumb is 1deg per hundred rpm till 3k.. 1000 = 10deg, 1500=15deg, 2k = 20, etc Sure there's a lot more to it but that'll get you running. You will want more timing at low kpa and less timing past 100kpa if you're boosted.. but if you're n/a that rule of thumb above will work.


thanks need_a_VR6. this advice and MLV helped tremendously. the thing started, idled and accelerated smooth on a 33 degree morning this week and runs great while warming up and warmed up.
i am thinking about turning on the de-acceleration fuel cut off on now and also the option for the load boosting when the a/c compressor turns on. (one thing at a time though!)
my next question is do the kpa scales between the afr table, ve table and spark table need to match each other as far as where they start, and the steps in them up to 100? (normally aspirated engine)
the only driveability issue i have run into is 3k or greater in any gear and then pulling off the accelerator but only holding it open a fraction just enough to sustain the engine speed it goes way lean (19 or so). 
ve table is 30 - 100
afr table is 15 - 100
ign table is 20 - 100
when i watch the ve table while doing this it is reading on the very bottom row. my thinking is that i should change the bottom kpa value on all 3 tables to be 15 or 20?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *msrwerks* »_
when i watch the ve table while doing this it is reading on the very bottom row. my thinking is that i should change the bottom kpa value on all 3 tables to be 15 or 20?

or change the tune in the bottom row to something a bit more rich... but its very easy to try both methods and see what nets you the best result http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (ValveCoverGasket)*

but should the kpa scales match in all 3 of the tables?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

they dont need to. if you need more resolution in one table, and not as much in another, its fine to have them be different. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## msrwerks (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: i am no tuner... (ValveCoverGasket)*

is there a standard as to how much under the lowest kpa you have seen that the scale needs to start?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

No, it really depends on the kpa value you get on decel. My car I set it to 35kpa but other cars can be as low as 15-20kpa. 
Just make sure that when you enable decel you're *totally* off throttle and below idle kpa at the very least, probably even a little further. I use a 1s delay for that as well on my car to make it a bit smoother.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: i am no tuner... (msrwerks)*

i dont think so... i would try setting the bottom row to the same value as what you see during engine braking. otherwise leave it be and change the fuel values in the bottom row at the higher rpms to be something that doesnt make the car buck, or try changing the timing in those bins as well


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