# W12 Coolant Specification Question (G12, or G12 Plus Plus?)



## PhaetonMack (Feb 20, 2007)

*W12 Coolant Nightmare please help!!!!*

Greetings All,
First time poster on this forum. I bought a 2004 W12 with 14k miles on it three weeks ago. Engine light came on and the problem was a coolant leak. The leak has been repaired and the dealer is saying I need G12 Plus Plus coolant. They ordered it and said that it still hasn't come in and that the are at the mercy of VW. Every other dealer I have called says that G12 is all that it needs. Haven't seen the car in two weeks







(. What is the deal here??? Will G12 work or do I need this G12 Plus Plus stuff? Thanks.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: W12 Coolant Nightmare please help!!!! (PhaetonMack)*

Hi Marion:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum, we're glad you are here.
I also own a 2004 W12 Phaeton. The owner manual for my car specifies 'G12' coolant, as shown in the scanned image below. To the best of my knowledge, this means you use the coolant shown in the picture below that. The text in the owner manual is a bit ambiguous - although it suggests that the 'purple coloured' G12 is desirable, it also states very clearly that we can use 'red' G12, or even G11. The liquid in the jug shown in the picture below is sort of a bright fluorescent red colour. I asked the Phaeton technician at my VW dealership about this, and he told me that it was 'for sure' perfectly OK to use the stuff shown in the picture. By the way, he also drives a Phaeton, and I trust his judgement absolutely.
You may also want to have a peek at these past discussions about coolant:
"Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message
F265 Map Controlled Engine Thermostat Replacement (W12 - BAP)
Some other great resources for you as a new Phaeton owner include our Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) - especially the section entitled _'Questions New Phaeton Owners Have Asked'_, and the excellent team of support specialists available to you at the Phaeton Customer Care Center, who can be reached toll free by dialling 1 (877) 742-3866.
Best regards, happy motoring,
Michael
*Coolant Specification*


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## PhaetonMack (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: W12 Coolant Nightmare please help!!!! (PanEuropean)*

Thanks a lot I really appreciate your help. After researching a lot more yesterday what you are saying is partially correct. If you are just adding coolant G12 is perfectly fine. But if your coolant system has been completly drained to resolve an issue you will need this hocus pocus "G12 plus plus" stuff. Apparently you want notice anything initially if you don't use it, but after several thousand miles you could potentially have major problems with your coolant system without the G12 plus plus additive. Spoke to a bunch of Master Phaeton Technicians yesterday only two of them knew that the W12 needed this special additive if the system had been drained. They were both emphatic that refilling the system with G12 would majorly screw things up down the road. Also both parts departments confirmed that it would take a while to get as there wasn't any available in the states. Oh well......


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## PhaetonMack (Feb 20, 2007)

*Talked to Heather from the VoA Phaeton team*

She verified that my W12 does need this additive after researching it for a day. Said she talked with a mechanic that has worked on a lot of Phaetons in Chicago to verify this. She also said that it is only available at the Los Angeles parts depot and that it will take at least three more days before it makes it to the east coast because it is considered a hazardous material and can only be ground shipped







. The customer service at VoA was really a big help. Anyways with that said anytime your Phaetons cooling system needs work make sure they are refilling it with the right stuff. The overwhelming majority of V-dub parts clerks and technicians I spoke with yesterday didn't know this particular coolant/part even existed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Talked to Heather from the VoA Phaeton team (PhaetonMack)*

Wow, that's interesting information - thanks very much for reporting back to all of us with it.
If you have the opportunity, could you please take a picture of the container that the special G12 coolant additive comes in? You can then email it to me, and I will post the picture here for everyone else to refer to. Click on my user name to the left to reveal my email address.
Michael


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## maleezer (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: W12 Coolant Nightmare please help!!!! (PhaetonMack)*

Just curious, how much did you pay for your car?


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## PhaetonMack (Feb 20, 2007)

*I'll ask the service guy to save a bottle*

I'll email you the photo. I definitly think it would help if more of us know about it. I know the Phaeton W12 is rare in the states but I'm still somewhat dissapointed that so many technicians think they can treat it like any of the other VW's they service.


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## PhaetonMack (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: W12 Coolant Nightmare please help!!!! (maleezer)*

It was never titled and it was the loaner car for Phaeton Owners who bought their cars in for service. Since this rarely happened the owners wife drove it most of the time. The asking price was 69,990 which was way too much. I showed them printouts of W12 Phaetons for significantly less. I ended up paying 50 even. Its VW certified and it has 14k miles. I probably could have gotten it for three grand less than that but then I wouldn't have seen the car and I would have had to pay shipping too.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: W12 Coolant Nightmare please help!!!! (PhaetonMack)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonMack* »_ I ended up paying 50 even. Its VW certified and it has 14k miles.

Sounds like a good deal to me. Congratulations.
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: W12 Coolant Nightmare please help!!!! (PhaetonMack)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonMack* »_Greetings All,
First time poster on this forum. I bought a 2004 W12 with 14k miles on it three weeks ago. Engine light came on and the problem was a coolant leak. The leak has been repaired and the dealer is saying I need G12 Plus Plus coolant. They ordered it and said that it still hasn't come in and that the are at the mercy of VW. Every other dealer I have called says that G12 is all that it needs. Haven't seen the car in two weeks







(. What is the deal here??? Will G12 work or do I need this G12 Plus Plus stuff? Thanks.
 
It seems that all W12s will eventually have to have this repaired at some time or another. Mine did the same thing. In fact, my Phaeton and Michael's Phaeton both did this at about the same time.


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## PhaetonMack (Feb 20, 2007)

*Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant*

It is definitly called "G12 Plus Plus" They put in a 50/50 mixture of the stuff with G12. There was only six bottles of the stuff in the country. If you need all of your coolant replaced and you have a W12 make sure your technician knows about it. I talked to parts managers and techs at about a dozen VW dealerships. Unfortuneatly most were pretty rude and insisted that there was no such thing as "G12 Plus Plus". I guess they thought I was trying to tell them how to do their jobs. I was actually just looking for the part. If you are in thw Wasgington, DC area and have a Phaeton. Take it to Jeff at Fairfax VW. He was one of only two VW service people that actually knew about the W12's special coolant needs.
I'll send a photo of the bottle to the moderator so they can post it.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant (PhaetonMack)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonMack* »_It is definitly called "G12 Plus Plus" They put in a 50/50 mixture of the stuff with G12. 

When you say they used a 50/50 mixture of the two coolants, do you mean they didn't mix that 50/50 mixture with any water? My understanding is that VW insists that the coolant (antifreeze) itself forms a minimum of 50% but no more than 60% of what goes in the cooling system, with water making up the rest. 
Maybe Chris can chime in here with the official word.


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## PhaetonMack (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant (car_guy)*

I may have misunderstood the service rep. They could've put 50% water, and used 25% G12 and 25% G12 Plus Plus. In any case you would still need G12 Plus Plus if your coolant system was drained.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant (car_guy)*

As for 50%/50%, that's the correct mix between coolant and water. As for G12 and G12++ -- I honestly don't know. Fortunately, I never needed to worry about it where customers' cars were concerned because I never had a W12 with that degree of coolant loss.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant (chrisj428)*

Many thanks to new forum member Marion for sending in this picture of "G12 Plus Plus". This is fascinating information, and it's great to know that all of us 'long in the tooth' forum regulars can still learn from the newbies.
Geez, I am impressed... 

*G12 Plus Plus Coolant*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant (PanEuropean)*

On the other hand, now I am a bit confused after doing some further research. The fluid capacity charts for the 2004 and 2004 Phaeton both make reference to _"G 012 A8F A4, PURPLE coloured". _ This is the product shown in the first photo I posted way at the top of the thread, the photo showing the container of coolant on top of the W12 engine of my car.
The 2006 Phaeton fluid capacity chart elaborates a little further, stating _"Use phosphate-free coolant G 012 A8F A4 [G12+ (purple)]", _then going on to describe what product mixtures are and are not acceptable.
The maintenance manual (both the Robert Bentley version and the on-line ELSA version - they are the same) specify _"G 12 following TL VW 774F"_. I presume that VW 774F is a specification, but I can't find any further reference to that specification, and much to my surprise, neither the bottle of G 012 A8F A4 that I have at my house or the bottle of G 012 A8G A3 shown in the picture immediately above show that specification number on them.
The parts catalog (ETKA) shows both A8F A4 and A8G A3, so it's no help. Mind you, the parts catalog is normally not used to determine what fluid is used, it is just a listing of all fluids that are available.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant (PanEuropean)*

Here's the 2004, 2005, and 2006 fluid capacity charts (the 2005 chart is the same as the 2004 chart).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Got my car back and I have the bottle of G12 Plus Plus coolant (PanEuropean)*

And, here's the 2006 fluid capacity chart, which has a bit more information about what can be mixed with what. 

*See attachment on post above...*


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## valmes (Oct 27, 2009)

PanEuropean said:


> Here's the 2005 fluid capacity chart (same as the 2004 one).


Michael can you rehost those charts please?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

All attachments and pictures have been re-hosted.

Michael


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## valmes (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks!!!


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Coolant flush?*

Looking at the VW Maintenance Schedule for my W12, I notice it only calls for "Cooling System - check level" every 20,000 miles. In other vehicles I've owned, I've made a point of having the cooling system *flushed* every few years, and I believe that was because the manufacturers had recommended it. I have no problems with my W12 cooling system, but was wondering if I should consider having it flushed, or if this is considered to be another of those "lifetime" fluids? You know, like our transmission fluid used to be!  

Having read the discussion above, I hope the correct answer to my question is to leave it alone! 

I look forward to your comments. 

Regards, 
Ron M.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Ron:

To the best of my knowledge, the coolant genuinely is 'lifetime' - if you keep in mind that the foreseen lifetime of a car in North America is about 13 years.

When I had a temperature sensor changed in my W12 engine about 3 years after the car was manufactured, I had a look at the coolant and it looked great. The liquid that I can see in the small round sphere in the engine compartment today (8 years after manufacture) still looks clean and clear.

So - it is not something that I think we need to pay much attention to.

Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

PanEuropean said:


> Hi Ron:
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, the coolant genuinely is 'lifetime' - if you keep in mind that the foreseen lifetime of a car in North America is about 13 years.
> 
> ...


Thanks Michael,

That's the answer I was hoping for. I will just leave it alone. By the way, can you please tell me where the "small round sphere" is located? I don't remember ever seeing it.

Best regards,
Ron


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## twgin (Apr 25, 2012)

So lets bring a two year old thread back to life...

The gist of the thread seems to be that when the cooling system is fully drained, it must be refilled with a 25/25/50 mix of the "plus plus" G12, the "regular" G12, and (distilled) water.

The thread is all about 12 cylinder Phaetons; does this requirement also apply to the 8 cylinder Phaetons ?

Terry


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

twgin said:


> The gist of the thread seems to be that when the cooling system is fully drained, it must be refilled with a 25/25/50 mix of the "plus plus" G12, the "regular" G12, and (distilled) water.


Hi Terry:

Uh, no, I don't think that is a correct conclusion.

Michael


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## twgin (Apr 25, 2012)

Hi Michael,

My concern is with an upcoming timing belt change in which the cooling system will be drained. The thread never did nail down what exactly best practice was but the OP seemed to have good information on including some level of the "plus plus" fluid.

But the thread was 12 cylinder based, I'm wondering whether a V8 kind of guy has to worry about this...

The Fluid Capacity Chart covers both engines but doesn't address the "criticality" of using the ne plus plus fluid...

Terry


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Looks like there never has been a definitive answer to the W12 coolant specs. I've an '04 W12 that suffered some significant coolant loss due to a crushed radiator. Some coolant had already leaked out when I got it and I drained about another gallon out of it when I disconnected the radiator. It was pink colored coolant, I assume that's G12 and maintenance receipts show that it had been refilled by the dealer with G-012-A8F-A4 in the past. Should I just refill with G12 pink or do I need to use the purple G12 Plus Plus and if so in what concentration.


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## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

Hi Stephan

When I had my timing belt done I flushed and replaced with G13 which is backwards compatible with almost everything in the past. Check out this link, lots of good information.

https://www.ecstuning.com/MonthlyFlyers/#?/flyers/2013/january/what-coolant-should-i-use-vw-or-audi/

John


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Phaetonlvr said:


> Looks like there never has been a definitive answer to the W12 coolant specs. I've an '04 W12 that suffered some significant coolant loss due to a crushed radiator. Some coolant had already leaked out when I got it and I drained about another gallon out of it when I disconnected the radiator. It was pink colored coolant, I assume that's G12 and maintenance receipts show that it had been refilled by the dealer with G-012-A8F-A4 in the past. Should I just refill with G12 pink or do I need to use the purple G12 Plus Plus and if so in what concentration.


I had mine flushed and filled at the dealer and they used PN G 013A8J1G, but I think that's what they use for everything.

Like everyone else, they said 50/50 coolant/water. I bought a gallon to go and asked them for an empty jug to mix it. They gave me an almost empty jug.

Oh, my overflow tank still looked brown, but they dipped a paper towel and showed it had new coolant. I would like to replace it, but not sure it's worth the expense if it's just going to turn brown again.

-Eric


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## s2kvondeutschland (Mar 19, 2011)

The overflow tank browns from heat cycling. When mine start to turn brown, I replace them. It makes the whole engine bay look new again. 

You can clean and shine all day but a brown reservoir really kills a bay. 

As far as coolant goes, when I worked with VW, we used the newest G-whatever in any car that already had G-whatever. The new versions all play well with the older versions. The only exception was: if a car has yellow coolant, it gets yellow coolant. Trying to flush all that stuff out almost never works. 

Sent from my Chroma Nexus 6


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

s2kvondeutschland said:


> The overflow tank browns from heat cycling. When mine start to turn brown, I replace them. It makes the whole engine bay look new again.
> 
> You can clean and shine all day but a brown reservoir really kills a bay.
> 
> ...


Of course they make it out of a plastic that turns brown from heat. I wonder if that's by design to get you to flush and fill regularly?

I have new overflow tanks for my other VWs. On my Phaetons, you only see the tank discoloration if you take off the cap. 

-Eric


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

RocketVol said:


> When I had my timing belt done I flushed and replaced with G13 which is backwards compatible with almost everything in the past. Check out this link, lots of good information.
> 
> https://www.ecstuning.com/MonthlyFlyers/#?/flyers/2013/january/what-coolant-should-i-use-vw-or-audi/


Great Info, thanks! I also checked on the Blauparts website and they pretty much also recommend G13 for everything.

I'll check with the VW dealer also, just to get another opinion.


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