# REFERENCE: 1.8t Water / Methanol (Meth) Injection FAQ



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I try to keep up with the happenings on this forum and I see a lot of questions come up on water meth injection. There is a lot of half knowledge being pushed around, some misconceptions, and just some issues. So I'm going to do another in-depth thread to go over everything.

I'll be filling this in over the next few days or so as I pull all my info together.

-Greg


*Read if you are thinking of trying water/methanol injection... Cliff Note questions have been added at Post #175.... Please read those if you don't want to sit through all this. But if you just read the C/N then whats the point anyway.* http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=937176&page=7 Bottom of the page.

*What is Water/Methanol Injection?* 

Water Injection or Water Methanol Injection, is a process by which a mixture or water and Methanol are injected into the fuel/air mixture on the way to the combustion chamber. Water/Methanol Injection provides "Chemical Intercooling" inside the cylinder. By injecting water and methanol in a finely atomized spray, the water is able to evaporate under the high temps of a firing cylinder, and when the water evaporates, it takes heat with it. The methanol also has a cooling and octane boosting effect as it burns. 

*How does water/methanol injection allow your engine to produce more power?*

The production of more power by a water/meth injected engine is not a by-product of the water/meth mixture alone. You must tune for it to get the most out of it. The evaporative effects of the water/meth mixture, plus the octane boost, allows you to run more advanced timing, and boost, thus increasing power. Methanol having the octane boosting effect, you can adjust your AFR's with tuning, and be able to run the same AFR as a pump gas tune with less fuel added to the fuel map of your engine managment. When the system is spraying, methanol is making up for the fuel that gets taken away during the tuning process. You end up with about same 12.5:1 or so AFR with less pump gas added, you also increase knock resistance, and due to the octane boosting effect, you can add timing and boost to make more power safely. 

*What is Methanol? * 

Methanol is the simplest alcohol compound, comprised of one carbon atom, one oxygen atom and four hydrogen atoms (CH3OH). It is also referred to as wood alcohol, carbinol and methyl alcohol. It is poisonous, flammable and relatively volatile. It has no taste or color, but it does have a slight scent.

Methanol is used as a fuel and an antifreeze, and to make formaldehyde. It is also added to ethanol to make it unpalatable so that it avoids taxes on drinkable alcohol, as ethanol without a denaturant of some sort is consumable by humans. Methanol was first discovered in 1661, though it had been used without isolation by peoples as far back as the Egyptians in their embalming processes. The name comes from methy, meaning wine, and hyle, meaning trees.

Methanol is used as a fuel source by some, though its use is limited by its volatility. The main area in which one sees methanol being used is in many top-end racing engines. The vehicles in the Indy 500, for example, are all run on methanol. This methanol is usually produced using a fossil fuel as the synthesis gas, either natural gas or petroleum.

Many renewable energy advocates see methanol as an ideal fuel source, with distinct advantages over hydrogen. When methanol is made from materials such as wood, it is often called bioalcohol. The theoretical use of methanol as a widespread fuel source has given rise to a theory describing what is known as the methanol economy.

In the methanol economy, the common fuel is methanol, with non-renewable fuels having a minority share or being entirely unused. George Olah, a winner of the Nobel Prize, is a strong advocate of this path. Advocates point out that in contrast to hydrogen, methanol is relatively cheap to produce, can be manufactured with little or no waste, is efficient to store and can be made from sources other than fossil fuels. Also, while conversion to a hydrogen economy would require major changes in infrastructure, methanol could be phased in relatively easily because of its interoperability with fossil fuels. One can mix methanol with gasoline to produce hybrid fuels while making the shift in economy.

Unfortunately, methanol is very toxic and contains a number of hazards. It is less volatile than hydrogen, but also much heavier, which could allow contamination in the case of spills or tank leaks. A wide range of groups are constantly looking for new and innovative uses for methanol, and it seems apparent that it will have a role in the energy economy of the future. Whether that role is as the key player or a supporter to hydrogen or some other fuel source remains to be seen. 

*Can you run just water injection without methanol?*  

Yes, you can run straight water. The common misconception is that without the methanol you will gain only lower intake temperatures but lose all of your effective higher octane (which in turn is knock prevention).

What the real story is is that tuning with a ~50/50 mix water alcohol makes tuning the car much easier. Tuning pure water is a trickier process. Pure water is commonly sprayed in Rally cars with excellent success. However, they have very skilled tuners and larger budgets than most of us.

In a nutshell:

-Water sprayed early porvides the best IAT heat exchange(chemical cooling) as long as you get good vaporization.

-Late water injection(direct injection or post TB injection) provide amazing in-cylinder cooling as well as detonation resistance.

- Leaner mixture is important(leaner than a typical water/meth mix is required)

- A strong ignition is also required because the highr water content has a tendency to slow down flame propagation and also quench the ignition.

Here is a personal testament to running pure water...


madmax199 said:


> Take a look at what rally cars are able to achieve with water only injection. They run upward of 40 psi of boost safely with timing right at MBT for extented period of time.
> I know some would say that the above analogy would not transfer to real life, let alone our 1.8t. I ran 30 psi of boost on the stock K04 with a water only setup and serious timing. the car made great power safely for almost a year that way(I later converted to E85 but still retained the water injection). Yes I hat to adopt a different tuning philosophy, yes I had to run multiple staggered and extra small nozzles(required for full water vaporization) but it worked great and I had no knock at 30 psi on hot summer days pushing the 1.8t at the track.


*What supporting upgrades are required for water/methanol injection?*

At minimum you should have some sort of engine management that can be tuned, I.E. able to adjust timing, boost, and fuel curves, to compensate for the octane boost, and cooling effects, and be able to take advantage of them to make power. Otherwise you can run water/meth injection on a stock car with tunable engine management. You do not have to have after-market intakes, exhausts, intercoolers, or strengthened internals. Although with more supporting mods that already increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine, the more power that can be had. 

*Who makes Water/Methanol injection systems?*

There are many manufactures of water/injection systems:

These are some of the more popular and most inclusive kits for the money
www.aquamist.co.uk
http://www.snowperformance.net/ 
www.coolingmist.com
www.alcohol-injection.com
www.enginerunup.com
www.fjoracing.com/products/waterinjection
www.smcenterprises.com/subaru.htm
*Here is a link to Richard L's Sticky with details on companies:*
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=958501
*Who is the best manufacture to go with?*

That is up to debate, but when you choose a kit, look at all the components that come with the kit, or if you can buy extra pieces that you may need, or think you need I.E. Level switches, fail safes, extra nozzles, varible controllers.
Also consider what type of reservoir you are going to have to use, or does the kit include one? 
Most companies have some sort of reservoir, some make you use the existing windshield wiper tank, or make you supply your own.
Also read other peoples experiences with different kits as far as setup, price, inclusiveness of kit (does it satisfy all your requirements part-wise), power gains, etc.

How do I know how big a nozzle to run?

There are calculators linked below, but here is a rule for choosing injector size, as promoted by user velocity196


> Use 1cc nozzle size per total HP output. If you're looking for 400whp use either a single 380cc injector, or 2 x 180cc, or a 250cc and a 180cc injector, ect.


Here is a water injection calculator to assist in this
Calculator 

Another injection calculator
=http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for...read.php?t=351

Calculating how much methanol to inject
[*]Converting flow (GPH to CC/M, etc)

It is at the bottom of the page...

Here is a volume converter also, to cross reference nozzles. Some companies list volumes of their nozzle in metric, some in standard units of measure.
http://www.sciencemadesimple.net/volume.php

*How can I mix my own Water/Meth*
it works out to be a 1.3 : 1 (meth:water by volume) for a true 50/50 mix.

A 1:1 (again by volume) mix yields around a 56% water to 44% meth. 

It all really depends on what you are injecting meth mainly for, latent heat removal or knock suppression.

methyl alcohol = 0.791g/cc
water = 1.0g/cc

using measuring cup - 1000cc basis:

750ccMeOH + 250ccH2O = 1000cc
750/1000 = 75 v/v% methanol in the methanol/water mix

density = mass/volume

0.791 = mass/750
mass = 593.25gms methanol in the above 75 v/v% methanol/water mix

593.25gms methanol + 250gms water (water = 1.0gm/cc) = 843.25gms

593.25/843.25 = 70 w/w% methanol

therefore, 75 volume percent methanol in water = 70 weight percent methanol in water

*Where can I get methanol?*
One of the best sources that some probably don't realize is from wal-mart or anywhere that sells basic windshield wiper fluid. Just make sure you don't get the stuff with Glycol in it...this is the same stuff used in engine anti-freeze. It won't work well, or could damage you engine.

What kind of fluids you can inject

Other sources:

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html?mgiToken=0C15B7C8BF55C855#specialty

This one has a comprihensive list of suppliers all over the USA

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121500

You can buy on-line from these guys:
LINK
www.pricechemical.com/order/
www.powermist.com/distrib.html
www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_c30755.html

Those are just some. 

*Are there any water injection forums I can learn more from?*

Yes, here are a few:

Aquamist's, probably has the most info and activity
www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/
www.waterinjectionforum.com
www.waterinjection.info
http://snowperformance.net/forum/
www.alcohol-injection.com/forum

*How do I know what mixture to inject?*

THe best rule of thumb is a 50/50 mix of methnol and distilled water

Some use more meth, some use less. But windshield wiper fluid is commonly between 35-42% methanol, which will usually work fine. The best mixture is proportionate to your particular state of tune. A little less methanol could possibly cause detonation. Mixing it yourself maybe the best way to know what is right for you.

Great link to the heat capacity of various concentrations of fuel/meth/water

Here is a freeze table for methanol also:

 http://162.128.70.44:8080/cs.html?...l+freeze&col=ashland+valvolin+vioc&n=1&la=en


Just be careful with methanol as it is corrosive, toxic, and a carcinogen. Please be careful if you decide to mix your own brew.

Here is a link to a methanol hydrogemeter:

http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ezrs104.html

Here is a great how to page:

http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

*Can you build your own kit, and how?*

You need some basics to build your own system.

You need a pump with adequate pressure, most people use some type of diaphram pump, from ShurFlo for example.

You need nozzles

You need tubing

You need a trigger to turn on the system at the right time, some type of pressure switch...Some engine management such as TurboXS UTEC has a spare solenoid that can be setup to run your water injection system.

Many of the things needed for setting up a system can be found at these suppliers

www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/start.shtml?BV_UseBVCookie=no
www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=68424
www.mcmaster.com/

And here is a great how to page on building your own...
www.projectwrx.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=34

*Can water/meth injection cause damage to my engine?*

As with any aftermarket part, yes it can.

If you are running water/meth injection, you are risking detonation and catostrophic engine failure shoud you system fail or not run at optimum efficiency. This is due to the fact that when tuned you will be running advanced timing, boost and leaner fuel trims that would normally not be possible without water/meth injection. Loss of the system while under heavy load may not be able to be compensated for in time, and could cause detonation at best case, and engine failure at worst case. Be careful, and make sure you use a failsafe, or a tune that retards timing at the onset of knock, and some sort of level indicatior for the reservior, to ensure you know when the tank is getting empty. Nozzle clog indicators are not a bad idea either. They are especially important if using tap water, or not using a filter in the system, to catch impuritiies. This is why distilled water is best for this application.

*Can I run without a external intercooler?* 

Yes, but your tune has to be setup to compesate for it. Advantages to running without a TMIC or FMIC are better spool of turbo and response, due to less volume to fill up. But again, you must make sure your system is working properly all the time, some have experimented with not using an external intercooler with success.

*What gains can be made from water/meth injection?*

This all depends on the current setup of your car, type of car, and your tuners ablilty. All your supporting mods such as exhaust, intakes, turbos gains are best realized with some sort of aftermarket tuning. The same it true with water/meth injection. But generally gains of 20-30 Hp and 20-30 ft/lbs of tq are common, making this one of the best bang for the buck power upgrades for your car. Your gains of course depend on supporting mods you already have in place, that will let you take advantage of the tuning to a higher degree. 

*Is Methanol Flammable?*
Yes, it's flammable. The flammability depends on what ratio meth/water you run though.
Flammability Thread



Badger5 said:


> The question got asked on ASN forum so I did some tests which may be of interest to folks:
> 
> okies...
> did the tests
> ...


*Other NASIOC threads concerning water/meth injection:*

Aquamist (Water injection) questions and answers
 Call us believers (alky injection)!
Solo2 and Alchy Injection?
which alky injection system
New Water Injection Dyno Results
Pre-turbo WI
Water Vs. Alky VS. Meth...



*Tips & Tricks - Many thanks to DMVDUB*
Ethanol makes a great replacement for Methanol when you're making your own mix. I've been buying the Ethanol from HD or Lowes for a while and at ~$10usGal you can't beat the price. (or if you live in an area where moonshine is prevalent, Free jugs of runoff work great!)

Not everyone has the same optimal mix. 
Mine is certainly not 50/50 it's more in the neighborhood of 70/30 CH3OH or C2H3OH / H20 in the summer months and I'm running almost pure H20 now in the winter. (with just H20 I've added 3.75* timing with no pull, but with any other mix I can't go over a degree or 2 (maybe) without it being pulled. 
So try different mixes until you find the right one for you.

Also H2O2 is a fun idea... Just make sure you have the fuel to back it up

DO NOT USE HOBBY NITRO! It will gunk up the tubes and gunk up the Low level sensor. It is full of oils that also clog the screen on the nozzle. Don't use it unless you're prepared to clean the whole system after, and it's not really worth it.

Alcohol can do wonders for fixing a lean situation (I would only do it temporarily). Before I picked up the 4bar FPR I was running lean once in a while (so it said) and the add / multi trims were adding around 7-12%, which is no good. With PURE ethanol on the bottle I got them under the curve to -1to-3% 

Don't assume you will be able to up your timing by 7* or something of that nature... you probably won't. Do a test / Log and up the timing a little at a time, and check fuel while you're doing that. Give it a good 20mi+ to really adapt before going further with adding more timing / removing fuel.

Don't think you're buying a nitrous kit made of water and alcohol...IT IS NOT. You can gain some power in certain situations. But more than anything you're really just adding extra protection to the engine. (so you can run NO2 ). If you don't have a FMIC , bigger SMIC or AWIC, you will probably see a decent gain. If your IAT's are already low your only going to get so much benefit from the cooling. Gains from cooling don't seem infinite, they do seem to level off when you're down in the single digit C's . (at least in my case this is true)


*Octane info and such...UPDATED* 

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol
http://www.csgnetwork.com/octaneratecalc.html


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Manufacturers:

Active 
Location: Active Autowerke Miami, Florida, USA.
Capabilities: Adjustable manifold pressure activation
Pump: Shurflo
Electronic Controller option:: not mentioned on site
Chemical compatibility: Water, Alcohol 
Failsafe: not mentioned on site
Price range: US$750.00
Warranty: Not mentioned on site
URL: http://activeautowerke.com/cooling/main.php
EMAIL: [email protected] 

AEM 
Location: 2205 126th Street, Unit A Hawthorne Ca. 90250
Capabilities: Mainfold pressure activated 
Pump: Shurflo
Electronic Controller option:: Onboard MAP sensor Pump speed controller
Chemical compatibility: Water, 50% Alcohol (recommened) 
Failsafe:: water level sensor and power supply failure 
Price range: US$390.00 - $570.00
Warranty: 12 months
URL: http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory...CategoryID=120
EMAIL: [email protected] 

Alkycontrol
Location: Alkycontrol. USA. 
Capabilities: Progressive delivery proportional to MAP sensor. Inline filter, metal fittings, and stainless steel braided lines. 
Pump: Shurflo
Electronic Controller::Based on PAC module controlling pump speed to vary pressure
Chemical compatibility: Water, Alcohol 
Failsafe: Failsafe Bi-colored LED works of pressure sensing, inline filter, metal fittings, and stainless steel braided lines.
Price range: US$425-495
Warranty: 1 year unconditional and 100% methanol URL: http://www.alkycontrol.com/
EMAIL: Online form or phone

Aquamist
Location: ERL Ltd, Sussex, England.
Capabilities: Static flow, mappable, fuel injection duty cycle tracking, ECU interface and map switching
Pump: Own design - magnetic piston type and 150W/160psi by-pass Aquatec pump 
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol. 100% methanol and 10 to 20% nitromethane withteflon seals: supply on request
Failsafe: Dash Flowmeter or fulltime monitoring via signal error comparator circuitry, boost control and map switching output. 
Price range: US$585.00-3000.00+ 
Warranty: 12 months
URL: www.aquamist.co.uk
EMAIL: [email protected] (sales enquiry), [email protected] (technical)

Aquastealth
Location: USA.
Capabilities: Static flow, Pressure switch activated inline solenoid.
Pump: Shurflo
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol, isopropyl and ethanol. 
Failsafe: unspecified
Price range: US$239.00 
Warranty: Not mentioned on site
URL: www.aquastealth.com
EMAIL: [email protected]

Coolingmist
Location: Atlanta (Norcross), Georgia, USA.
Capabilities: Progressive, Static flow – single or dual stage
Electronic Controller: Digital 52 MM "all in one" boost guage, failsafe, progressive controller and flow gauge. Injection based on boost, MAF or boost and MAF.
Chemical compatibility: Water, 100% Methanol safe (EPDM Seals)
Failsafe: CMGS progressive controller has built in flow based failsafe. Detect low flow, high flow, out of fluid/hardware failure and flowing when should not be. Normally close or normally open output.
Price range: US$249.95 to $625
Warranty: 1 Year Warranty
URL: www.coolingmist.com
EMAIL: [email protected][/quote]
Review of Stage 1 Kit by bootymac

Devilsown
Location: Oklahoma City, Ok USA. NEW
Capabilities: Static flow, PWM pump speed control option
Electronic controller option: 0-5v (selectable scales 2 bar,3 bar,voltage) – pump speed control . Price US$125.00
Pump: Custom Shurflo
Chemical compatibility: Water, 100% Methanol safe (EPDM Seals) 
Failsafe: over-current sensing
Price range: US$205.00-305.00 + MAP sensor
Warranty: One Year Limited
www.alcohol-injection.com
EMAIL: [email protected] (sales inquiry), [email protected] (technical)

Hydramist by Element Tuning (Work with Hydra EMS only) 
Location: WA, USA. 
Capabilities: Full 3D hi-res mappable, inbuilt failsafe.
Electronic controller: Element Hydra stand-alone EMS. 
Pump: Shurflo (150W), with 125psi internal by-pass 
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol, Ethanol, Iso-propyl 
Failsafe: DDS3 flow sensing system - auto map switching via DDS3 v7.
Price range: US$799.00 not including Hydra EMS 
Warranty: Not yet specified 
EMAIL: [email protected] 
URL: www.elementtuning.com

Gaseous Intercooling TM
Location: Blowerworks. New Jersey, USA.
Capabilities: Static flow and two stage
Pump: Flojet
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol. 
Failsafe: Flow switch
Price range: $395.00-540.00 basic to Standard Plus (with solenoid) 
Electronic flow controller: US$195.00 sold as an optional extra
Warranty: 90 Days
URL: http://www.blowerworks.net 
EMAIL: [email protected] 

Hyper-drive
Location: Hyperdrive inc. Maryland, USA.
Capabilities: Mappable pump speed controller
Pump: Shurflo
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol, isopropyl and ethanol. 
Failsafe: low water level sensor.
Price range: US$750.00
Warranty: not mentioned on site
URL: http://www.hyp-drive.com/products/alcoholinj.htm
EMAIL: [email protected]

Labonte Motorsport
Location: 8187 Commerce Dr.
Loves Park, Illinois 61111 UDA
Capabilities: Static flow, PPS based on IDC and MPS
Pump: Aquatec
Chemical compatibility: Water, Alcohol (call)
Failsafe: Turbine flow sensor based
Price range: US$295.00 - $700 + add-on optional extra 
Warranty: Not mentioned on site
URL: http://www.labontemotorsports.com/store/index.php
EMAIL: On site fill-in form 

Perrin 
Location: Beaverton Oregon, USA.
Capabilities: IDC tracking - PPM pump control (progessive)
Pump: Electrionmagnetic piston pump
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol. 
Failsafe: low water level sensor and real time flow tracking 
Price range: US$749.99
Warranty: Terms and Conditions on Site
URL: http://www.perrinperformance.com
EMAIL: [email protected]

RSR
Location: RB Racing, California, USA.
Capabilities: Static flow, Port injection
Pump: Shurflo
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol.
Failsafe: water level switch
Price range: US$185.00-345.00 + MAP sensor
Warranty: call
URL: www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html 

SMC (Service work only)
Location: SMC Enterprises, Kentucky, USA. 
Capabilities: Progressive controller
Electronics controller option: - control pump speed to vary flow.
Pump: Flojet/Rotary fuel pump
Chemical compatibility: Water, Ethanol, Methanol, and Isopropyl alcohol types 
Failsafe: tank level sensor at present.
Price range: US$399.00-499.00 
Warranty: 90 Days
URL: www.smcenterprises.com
EMAIL: [email protected]

Snow Performance
Location: Woodland Park, Colorado, USA.
Capabilities: Multi-stage progressive, simultaneous injector duty cycle and boost based injection. Basic boost, MAF, 
and vacuum controlled injection systems as well. Non-progressive boost based injection also available. 
Pump: Aquatec featuring multiple high temp/pressure features, double seals, etc.
Chemical compatibility: Any ratio of water and methanol. 
Failsafe: Flow based, adjustable minimum flow and sample time, and progressive flow based volatge output.
Price range: 304.00-729.00
Warranty: Standard 2 year on all systems, optional Lifetime.
URL: http://www.snowperformance.net
EMAIL: [email protected][/quote]v

Spearco Water Injection System 
Location: Top-End Performance, N.Hollywood, California.USA.
Capabilities: Static flow 
Electronic controller option: Progressive pump speed controller +$129.00
Pump: Not specified
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol
Failsafe: Not secified
Price range: US$219.00
Warranty: Call
URL: http://www.h2oinjection.com
EMAIL: [email protected]

TTP Engineering
Location: Orlando, FL USA. 
Capabilities: Static flow, Progressive controller –sold separately(PWM pump)
Pump: Shurflo Based
Control option: pressure switch, TPS or MAP (0-5v selectable) 
Chemical compatibility: Water, Methanol 
Failsafe:upgrade path available 
Price range: from US$299.00(base) + accessories 
Electronic Controller: Variable injection rate controller now available
Warranty: Call
URL: http://www.ttp-engineering.com
EMAIL: online form filling


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

*Installation Guidance*
Where to position your injector nozzle (1)
Where to position your injector nozzle (2)
How to mount your nozzle in a rubber/silicone hose

*Throttle Body Spacers*


 USRT 60mm Throttle Body Spacers


*Solenoids*


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

*Performance Data from Real People*

*bootymac*


Malone Tuning Stage 3 custom tune
K04-001 w/ Kinetic high-flow exhaust
Coolingmist Stage 1 WMI
2.75" CAI w/ stock MAF housing
Autobahn TIH, TB hose, boost hoses
Eurojet SMIC w/ stock duct and vented wheel liner
2.5" eBay DP w/ OEM cat (inlet/outlet enlarged to 2.5")
2.5" Milltek resonated cat-back
TT225 386cc fuel injectors w/ 3bar FPR (Chevron 94 octane gas)
NGK BKR7E spark plugs w/ 0.028" gap


*The WMI Kit*: My WMI kit is boost activated and it injects ~300cc/m of a 40-50% methanol mixture at 10 PSI of boost. I mounted my nozzle before the TB in the TB hose. I'm using the washer fluid reservoir due to its fluid level sensor and I've also wired an LED to illuminate when the system is injecting. Based on my usage so far, I'm estimating that I will have to refill the reservoir once a month, but I keep a jug of -40C washer fluid in the hatch for emergencies.

With that out of the way, here are the graphs comparing the runs with (red) and without (blue) WMI:

*Boost *is approximately the same with and without WMI enabled:









However, we begin seeing the benefits of WMI when we log *IATs *(in Celsius):









The advantages are clear when I log *timing*. I added up the total idle stabilization of all 4 cylinders for simplicity:









And here's my *AFR *for both runs, although I'm unsure how accurate this is due to my narrowband ECU:










*JWoody*
FrankenTurbo F4HT, UNI STG2+ (440cc beta software), Eurojet SMIC, ABD Intake Manifold, Vented Wheel Well Liner, Phenolic gasket. 

No W/M. 









W/M Injection at WOT.









Logs of applicable Blocks...









*madmax199*
*IAT drop from crusing speed on 90 degree summer day*



*IAT drop on 3rd gear pull, (heat soaked on the same hot summer day)*



*Timing allowed with no correction at 30psi with Water Only Injection *




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

*Example Setups*
groggory - 2002 GTI
Labonte Motorsports Stage 2 kit
Controller is mounted under the airbox, attached to the wire tray with some machine screws (on @ 10PSI, Full @ 18 PSI)
Pump is mounted to the right of the battery
Solenoid is mounted on top of the Throttle Body Tube
Using M8 nozzle (GT28r turbo, 70mm TB, 830cc injectors)

Overall









Custom Intake Pipe w/ 3/8" bung welded

















Meth Feed on stock washer bottle









Solenoid zip tied on top of the cobra pipe









Controller mounted on wire tray 
Painless Performance Fuse Box in background fuses the Meth System (and all my systems individually)









------------------------------
User: One-Eight GTI

new camera pics 099 by One-Eight Gti, on Flickr


new camera pics 100 by One-Eight Gti, on Flickr

------------------------------
User: SabbySC

















-------------------------------
User:JWoody

















-----------------------------
User: BootyMac









---------------------------
User: GulfStream


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

...post6...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Sources

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=937176


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

good thread but fix you syntax!


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Thanks dude!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

ejg3855 said:


> good thread but fix you syntax!


Just tossing all the stuff up. I'll have it nice and organized and pretty in the next day or two.


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## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

Bump for a BAD ASS thread! :thumbup:


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## JWoody (May 17, 2006)

You can use my Logs of IAT's if you wish...if you do I'll delete this post later...

FrankenTurbo F4HT, UNI STG2+ (440cc beta software), Eurojet SMIC, ABD Intake Manifold, Vented Wheel Well Liner, Phenolic gasket. 

No W/M. 









W/M Injection at WOT.









Logs of applicable Blocks...









-J


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

groggory said:


> *Can you run just water injection without methanol?*
> 
> Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane. Without methanol, you may not make as much power, as it acts as a detonation inhibitor, and you may not be able to run a leaner AFR as you could with it.



Good thread, and thank you for taking the time to put together some valuable info :thumbup::thumbup:.

I have to disagree with this point because is one of the common misconception about water injection. 

Water does not ignite so it does not have a conventional fuel octane rating. However, introducing water vapor to the combustion chamber mix( air,fuel and now water vapor) greatly increase its detonation and pre-ignition (not the same) resistance, giving it even more detonation inhibition effect as the conventional or alcohol based fuels.

You can run a water only injection system and get the same gain as you'd get on a 50/50 mix or just methanol only. The reason it's not popular(at least in the street tuning scene) is because it requires a more involved tuning approach and most tuners (or tooners I should say) go for the easy route of alky or meth.

In a nutshell:

-Water sprayed early porvides the best IAT heat exchange(chemical cooling) as long as you get good vaporization.

-Late water injection(direct injection or post TB injection) provide amazing in-cylinder cooling as well as detonation resistance.

- Leaner mixture is important(leaner than a typical water/meth mix is required)

- A strong ignition is also required because the highr water content has a tendency to slow down flame propagation and also quench the ignition.

Take a look at what rally cars are able to achieve with water only injection. They run upward of 40 psi of boost safely with timing right at MBT for extented period of time.
I know some would say that the above analogy would not transfer to real life, let alone our 1.8t. I ran 30 psi of boost on the stock K04 with a water only setup and serious timing. the car made great power safely for almost a year that way(I later converted to E85 but still retained the water injection). Yes I hat to adopt a different tuning philosophy, yes I had to run multiple staggered and extra small nozzles(required for full water vaporization) but it worked great and I had no knock at 30 psi on hot summer days pushing the 1.8t at the track.



*IAT drop from crusing speed on 90 degree summer day*





Uploaded with ImageShack.us



*IAT drop on 3rd gear pull, (heat soaked on the same hot summer day)*





Uploaded with ImageShack.us




*Timing allowed with no correction at 30psi with Water Only Injection *





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

Here are my preliminary findings with the Coolingmist Stage 1 kit:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...lingmist-Stage-1-water-methanol-injection-kit


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## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

That injector calculator is a lil difficult. To simply it use 1cc per total HP output. If your looking for 400whp get either a single 380cc or 2 180cc or a 250cc and a 180cc injector ect. You get my point I hope. It's not rocket science unless your looking for every last 1/10 of a HP


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I have a fairly simple question about W/M and placement of the nozzle. 

If you are installing one of the throttle body plates that spray post tb, wouldn't the IAT's be skewed from the W/M injection almost exactly where the IAT sensor is? 
(wouldn't they show cooler than they actually are since the h20 meth is being spayed essentially on the sensor?)

My concern for this is; if the sensor is seeing the temp and thinks it's alot lower than it actually is I'm afraid it won't pull timing if needed.

I'm about to install a kit on my 1.8t this weekend so I'm trying to figure out the best / most effective place to mount the nozzle /s. I'd like to install a staggered setup using one of the post tb plates and possibly another nozzle closer to the cool side of my fmic.

Any tips or thought's greatly appreciated. 

-I was thinking about using my direct port nitrous manifold for this but it seems that it isn't the best means of introducing w/m into the cylinder head.eace:


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## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

DMVDUB said:


> I have a fairly simple question about W/M and placement of the nozzle.
> 
> If you are installing one of the throttle body plates that spray post tb, wouldn't the IAT's be skewed from the W/M injection almost exactly where the IAT sensor is?
> (wouldn't they show cooler than they actually are since the h20 meth is being spayed essentially on the sensor?)
> ...


That'll make a great setup! In a perfect world you'll want to do your big injector down below by core and a smaller injector up on the throttle body. Don't worry tho your knock system will take over any ill effects if you have any. I ran 26 degrees timing at 32psi plus on my old 35r fir 2 years with almost zero knock and not one hole in a stock piston. And I spray all 630cc's post throttle which isn't the best place fir that much meth.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Updated thread with information gleaned from the new posts.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

What did you update? I wanna know!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> What did you update? I wanna know!


Everyone above me who posted gave me some information. DMVdub gave me some info on pure water spraying. There were some logs posted that I started a w/m log section. I cross referenced some of the links and pulled info from some of the links bootymac's coolingmist review. I updated the calculator section with some more tidbits to make things easier. And did some more reformatting.

I feel like there's a lot of information in this thread but it's still missing plenty. Over time I'll get my head around what's missing here.

Maybe I'll dig through the websites of all the common VW parts vendors and see who carries what w/m selection. For instance I know Labonte is carried by Force Fed Engineering...cause that's where I got mine!

...If someone could link to places can buy throttle body spacers for the various sized throttle bodies, that would be a help.


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## JWoody (May 17, 2006)

Nice work Greg. :thumbup: I went and deleted my post to prevent duplicate info. I forgot to mention, my W/M Kit is the Snow Performance STG 2. 

-J


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## 01ttgt28 (Jun 23, 2009)

All I can say is wow


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## 01ttgt28 (Jun 23, 2009)

Labonte stage 3 great kit I like the touch screen display lets you set what time to start injecting. what pump u what to run. injector duty cycles peak hold all in real time great kit


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## mcgyver7923 (Oct 16, 2003)

Subscribed.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Updated Pic section to include lots more sample setups.


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## Shagnew (Oct 3, 2008)

*Eurodyne Software and Methanol Injection*

What do people on here know about Eurodyne Software and methanol injection. My mechanic who installed and ran my software (Eurodyne) is saying that Eurodyne detects the meth and adapts to it. Notices the in-let temperatures drop then re-calculates the timing etc based on that. Can anyone educate me further?

Its a MK4 2001 Golf 1.8T with BT and AEM Universal meth kit. Eurodyne software


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Shagnew said:


> What do people on here know about Eurodyne Software and methanol injection. My mechanic who installed and ran my software (Eurodyne) is saying that Eurodyne detects the meth and adapts to it. Notices the in-let temperatures drop then re-calculates the timing etc based on that. Can anyone educate me further?
> 
> Its a MK4 2001 Golf 1.8T with BT and AEM Universal meth kit. Eurodyne software


All ME7.x software adapts with changing IATs. No software 'detects' the meth, it just detects the IAT and adjusts accordingly (for the better). Also, increase your timing advance and the meth will prevent detonation. When the ECU doesn't detect detonation it will keep your advance. If it detects detonation it'll put a bunch of timing retard in play and kill your power.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

That would only be possible if you inject before the IAT somewhere. If it's post the most it can do is just get rid of knock induced timing pull.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> That would only be possible if you inject before the IAT somewhere. If it's post the most it can do is just get rid of knock induced timing pull.


Depends on your manifold.

My RMR manifold has the IAT on the side opposite the throttle body...meaning it can read the cooler temps.

I used to have my meth spray 10" downstream from the TB...but I'm moving it post throttle body due to my fears of meth seepage into my TB


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## mcgyver7923 (Oct 16, 2003)

I'm now running a Labonte  wow what a difference!


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Since this thread has popped back up, I thought I'd mention a few things I've learned about W/M along the way now. Mostly thanks to Quinten and Scott at USRT and my own trials.

^^Integrated all of your info into the main FAQ post. THANKS!!! -Greg^^ :wave:

Hope it helps-DMVDUB:wave:


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## matty675 (Oct 2, 2011)

Anyone know what size pipe will fit inside of the throttle body hose? 

Im going to cut my TB hose in half, stick a pipe w/ bung between the two halfs, and then clamp it in place. 

I beleive that ends of the hose are 3" but the middle section is considerably smaller.


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## ncsumecheng (Nov 1, 2005)

A good question that may be added above if answered: 

I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound. 

Buy another check valve. Install, works fine for a week or so. This morning, siphons again. Open valve again, clean as can be. 

I'm lost. Devil's own tells me check valve works fine regardless of head pressure from the tank location. 

Tubes seem fine/clear. Only thing I haven't done is to remove and inspect the nozzles, which is a pain. 

Ideas?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

ncsumecheng said:


> A good question that may be added above if answered:
> 
> I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.
> 
> ...


 Maybe dirty fluid

How about spraying into a clean, clear glass and seeing if there's sediment.

Not sure, just an idea


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

matty675 said:


> Anyone know what size pipe will fit inside of the throttle body hose?
> 
> Im going to cut my TB hose in half, stick a pipe w/ bung between the two halfs, and then clamp it in place.
> 
> I beleive that ends of the hose are 3" but the middle section is considerably smaller.


 Some silicone TB hoses can stretch over a 2.75" pipe but others can only fit 2.5"


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## matty675 (Oct 2, 2011)

Actually, only 2" ID pipe will fit inside the stock throttle body hose... ask me how I know


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ncsumecheng said:


> A good question that may be added above if answered:
> 
> I've had a sporadic siphoning issue arise. I used to have a solenoid, it failed. I bought the mechanical check valve. Did great for 3 years. Suddenly one day it siphons. Open, it appears clean and mechanically sound.
> 
> ...


Check valves look good on paper but everyone with experience using them on W/I will tell you that they all leak to various degree even with limited use. Solenoids are the way to go if you want consistency and real peace of mind. I have personally seen brand new check valves fail to seal properly. Back in the days, we had no choice since that is what was available/affordable but now a solenoid can be used for next to nothing. I quit messing with check valves except for using them as failsafes behind a solenoid.


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Need some advise on my wmi install golf mk4 1.8t ko3s with APR stage2, fitted wmi and put DO3 nozzle in throttle boost pipe and set wmi to come in at 10psi. Had it on rollers made no difference in hp with wmi on or off!!! Have spoke to few people who sell wmi kits all telling me different things, NGPracing and USRT say use 2 nozzles on in boost pipe after cooler other directly after throttle housing. Spoke to devilsown which my kit is said reason why no difference in hp that MAP sensor not see change in temp and need nozzle before MAP sensor cool temp so sensor can see temp change and one after throttle. Another wmi company say req add timing!!! I'm all lost in this not a clue which way to go. Got tyrolsport cooler fitted, HELP PLS.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

shaft6s9 said:


> Need some advise on my wmi install golf mk4 1.8t ko3s with APR stage2, fitted wmi and put DO3 nozzle in throttle boost pipe and set wmi to come in at 10psi. Had it on rollers made no difference in hp with wmi on or off!!! Have spoke to few people who sell wmi kits all telling me different things, NGPracing and USRT say use 2 nozzles on in boost pipe after cooler other directly after throttle housing. Spoke to devilsown which my kit is said reason why no difference in hp that MAP sensor not see change in temp and need nozzle before MAP sensor cool temp so sensor can see temp change and one after throttle. Another wmi company say req add timing!!! I'm all lost in this not a clue which way to go. Got tyrolsport cooler fitted, HELP PLS.


 This is going to take logging

Do you have vag com?


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

No what needs checking with vag-com?? can poss get someone do logs for me.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

shaft6s9 said:


> No what needs checking with vag-com?? can poss get someone do logs for me.


 We'll first get a baseline batch of logs on some 3rd gear pulls. This will tell us your: 

AFR 
IAT 
Per Cylinder Timing Pull 
MAF 
IDC / pulsewidth 

If everything looks good including timing pull = 0 then we'll move on... 
... 

Then we'll turn your meth injection on and do some more logs. We should see your IATs go down, your AFR stay spot on, your MAF stay the same, and your IDC go down. Timing pull should be all zeroes. 

If all looks good, then we'll move on 

... 

Then we'll bump you up say 3 degrees of timing, then do more logs. 

IATs should be about the same, AFR should stay spot on, MAF should go up, IDC should be the same. We may see a few blips on timing pull. Timing pull should max out around 5 (MAX) 

... 

If timing pull is still conservative, then we can bump you some more timing, maybe another 1.5-2 degrees. And more logs... 

IATs = same. AFR= same. MAF=up, IDC=same. 

And see where your timing pull is. 

How much timing you add is how much extra power you can get. But the more timing the more aggressive your tune becomes. Also, you want to leave headroom on the tune for super hot days when your car isn't getting that low of IATs as when you're testing. 

Also, if we encounter low RPM bogging we'll want to move the spray point up. If we don't, then we can move the spray point down. 

...so you see, it takes vag com to make power with w/m. 

On a sidenote, even without tuning, w/m will decrease IATs especially on super hot days when your intercooler gets heat soaked. So it's a win there. 

Hope that helps. 

:thumbup: 

I suggest you read the whole water/meth FAQ thread.


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

groggory said:


> We'll first get a baseline batch of logs on some 3rd gear pulls. This will tell us your:
> 
> AFR
> IAT
> ...


 I'm in the uk not such thing as super hot days here!!!:laugh: When go see my uncles on florida keys or tampa nothing like that heat. was in florida 18 months ago sept and october thats hot we dont get them temps over here.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

shaft6s9 said:


> I'm in the uk not such thing as super hot days here!!!:laugh: When go see my uncles on florida keys or tampa nothing like that heat. was in florida 18 months ago sept and october thats hot we dont get them temps over here.


 Ok, let's do your base line logging then. All logging should be done in 3rd gear from ~2000 - 6500 RPM if possible. 

Make two passes on each of these 

Blocks 002 / 118 / 020 

Blocks 001 / 031 / 032 

Then turn on your water meth injection at a 10 PSI set point and do it again 

Post up the csv files (I use dropbox) and we'll analyze the data and decide where to go from there.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Some good pointers by Grog as usual. However, there are a few things I want to add before you go chasing your tail. Whenever the methanol or alcohol content is as high as 50% and you are injecting a substantial amount (especially post TB), it will (without a doubt) richen the the AFR mixture. So, expect to be removing some fuel to keep the curve constant or conveniently add some boost to even it out. In Groggory's logic, you may never "move on" because the AFR will be affected, the moment you start injecting another fuel source. When you think about it, on stockish injectors, the volume is around 300 cc per cylinder and when you add say 200 cc of meth, it gives you 50 extra cc of fuel per cyl (in a perfect world with equal distribution). An extra 50 cc will impact the AFR and it won't stay "spot on" as stated in post #41. :beer:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Some good pointers by Grog as usual. However, there are a few things I want to add before you go chasing your tail. Whenever the methanol or alcohol content is as high as 50% and you are injecting a substantial amount (especially post TB), it will (without a doubt) richen the the AFR mixture. So, expect to be removing some fuel to keep the curve constant or conveniently add some boost to even it out. In Groggory's logic, you may never "move on" because the AFR will be affected, the moment you start injecting another fuel source. When you think about it, on stockish injectors, the volume is around 300 cc per cylinder and when you add say 200 cc of meth, it gives you 50 extra cc of fuel per cyl (in a perfect world with equal distribution). An extra 50 cc will impact the AFR and it won't stay "spot on" as stated in post #41. :beer:


 Thanks for the tip. I'm not an expert tuner. I just try my best. 

What do you think about the blocks I recommended he log? I thought that would give us a good snapshot of where he's at. 

Do you know the best way to figure out when to start injecting? 

Oh, and the OP needs to be injecting a consistant blend of water/alcohol throughout this testing. 50/50 by weight is the accepted mix.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

groggory said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'm not an expert tuner. I just try my best.
> 
> What do you think about the blocks I recommended he log? I thought that would give us a good snapshot of where he's at.
> 
> ...


 The blocks you recommended will give him all that he needs to tune the setup. All that is really needed is AFR, IAT, Timing, Corrections (individual corrections per cyl). 

When to start injecting is kind of dependent of the intended use of the car and what type of injection we are talking about. 

Personally, I think that injection pre-TB should start before ideal time. the reason being that I tested delays in IAT changes recorded by the sensor due to residual heat in the area (phenolic manifold spacer greatly helped with this but didn't totally cured it). Simply put, you need to anticipate delays in heat recorded by the IAT sensor and spray early for best IAT management. 

Post-TB with the intent of creating in-cylinder cooling needs a different approach as early injection could create misfires by quenching the spark. The perfect setup would call for a sequential controller to to tune both type of injection or two pumps to get the best out of both. 

Now, I like my spray to come before that initial boost spike at onset. I don't rely on pressure based controllers because they follow the boost curve and your spray pattern is as laggy as your boost. A MAF controller at least or MAF/injector duty controller is the way to go nowadays IMO (the technology and price makes it available to all). 

Yes, consistent mixture is recommended but don't kill yourself over it. Slight variations are negligible and I learned to prefer to mix by volume as it is most convenient (although I run straight water in all my cars except in the winter where 30% of denatured alcohol is added for obvious reasons).


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Another thing I want to contribute for the thread is you need to update the pump used by the various kits. It used to be shurflo aka crapflo for all, but now it's seems that most vendors assembling parts together as kits have made the Aquatec DDP 5800 the gold standard in that market. It's a better pump with internal bypass, set at 200 psi default but adjustable to 250 psi by an allen screw. (It's sad that some vendors still use the $40 wholesale shurflo in these day and age :screwy 

*Pic of the the Aquatec pump in most of the kits now* 












Here are some pics of the new direct port setup that you could use in your nozzle placement pics. 











































*Neat little distribution block made using 42DD vacuum manifold instead of using a plastic 4-1 fitting*


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

For that style direct port, what is the optimal aiming and positioning of the nozzles in relation to the runners? 

I've been considering doing something like that on my RMR intake manifold.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Nice Pics! :thumbup:Max whats the best way to remove that fuel using unisettings? Channel 2 Fueling on increasing load? If so, do you add to the channel so the % goes up(clicking the up arrow)? It would make sense that you would make the percentage go down(click the down arrow) but I think I've heard you say to add to that channel? can you clarify? TIA


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

groggory said:


> For that style direct port, what is the optimal aiming and positioning of the nozzles in relation to the runners?


 IMO, the position that offers the best results is the way I have it in the pics. Placing the nozzles in the runners (even at an acute angle) and you will have fluid pooling on the small runners, you also risk interference with the injector spray if placed too far down the runner. I tried a few positions on the bench with a spare manifold and the way I have it is by far the best compromise with the manifold design.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Twopnt016v said:


> Nice Pics! :thumbup:Max whats the best way to remove that fuel using unisettings? Channel 2 Fueling on increasing load? If so, do you add to the channel so the % goes up(clicking the up arrow)? It would make sense that you would make the percentage go down(click the down arrow) but I think I've heard you say to add to that channel? can you clarify? TIA


 Remove to the channel with the click down arrow. It will remove a percentage of the fuel added under increasing loads.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Remove to the channel with the click down arrow. It will remove a percentage of the fuel added under increasing loads.


 :thumbup::beer:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Sweet. What right angle adapters are you using there?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

groggory said:


> Sweet. What right angle adapters are you using there?


 They are actually custom 35 cc/min nozzles drilled for the narrowest cone spray possible. :beer:


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Well bit the bullet and rand scott at usrt, he said as i'm running boost type switch on/off type will never see anything from wmi. I have to have proper progressive controller recommended maf one over map or boost line controller. So need invest in one of those 1st also said get $30 line pressure gauge too. getting octane and v-tune loaded friday anyway go from there.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

shaft6s9 said:


> Well bit the bullet and rand scott at usrt, he said as i'm running boost type switch on/off type will never see anything from wmi. I have to have proper progressive controller recommended maf one over map or boost line controller. So need invest in one of those 1st also said get $30 line pressure gauge too. getting octane and v-tune loaded friday anyway go from there.


 BAH! I disagree. You can do lots with just a pressure switch. But a progressive controller is better. 

On a side note, a good start are those logs. Your new stuff's in the mail. Let's see where you're starting from with some logs


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## Mindfault (Feb 2, 2010)

I wanna direct port nitrous and wm. But not sure where best placement is for the wmi lines on my manifold.


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

I got vag com lite does blocks but only upto 025, its a start s suppose.


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Doing my timing adj following snow guide say increase timing by 2 degrees 3rd gear pull, keep adding 2 till hear detenation and decrease by 2. Increase mine by 6 altogether still no detenation shall i stop or increase till detenation and retard accordingly??? Hell of a difference in performance at moment.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

shaft6s9 said:


> Doing my timing adj following snow guide say increase timing by 2 degrees 3rd gear pull, keep adding 2 till hear detenation and decrease by 2. Increase mine by 6 altogether still no detenation shall i stop or increase till detenation and retard accordingly??? Hell of a difference in performance at moment.


 Keep adding until there is timing correction, that is the whole point of using water injection. Just make sure you do uphills and high gear pulls as they tend to load the motor more than the usual flat road 3rd gear pull. Once you finally see some correction back it down 3 degrees to give you a safety net for those hot days and when you get that bad batch of gas.


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Keep adding until there is timing correction, that is the whole point of using water injection. Just make sure you do uphills and high gear pulls as they tend to load the motor more than the usual flat road 3rd gear pull. Once you finally see some correction back it down 3 degrees to give you a safety net for those hot days and when you get that bad batch of gas.


 Thanks will do was monitoring intake temp 17 degrees under load using power gasket has made hell of a difference in intake temp. Got work yesterday couldn't touch inlet manifold too hot, then fitted power gasket. Hammered it to work this morning manifold just warm. IAT steady 30ish at idle, 22 cruising and 16-17 when meth comes in.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Nice thread Greg:beer:


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

*+NEIL*+DIAMOND*+ said:


> Nice thread Greg:beer:


 Mos def.. :beer:


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Having my nozzle in spacer plate after throttle got check valve in line have been told by devils own only need valve, did order solenoid and was told don't need it if have valve. Been reading that some still have leak with checl valve and the should be tight for over 20psi pressure before they leak.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Check valves fail all the time. You did the right thing by getting a solenoid! If the check valve fails you could potentially hydro lock your engine. Solenoid is the only way to go in my opinion.:thumbup:


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Thanks wil order one with my rest of stuff, seller gone racing till tuesdsy.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Twopnt016v said:


> Solenoid is the only way to go in my opinion.:thumbup:


 I totally agree. However, it is to be noted that the solenoids tend go bad also from time to time. I'm saying this because I don't want everybody reading this thread thinking that once you add a solenoid, you should never check/inspect your system. 

I also want to add that although I think it's a big mistake to rely on check valves only on your system, I still like to put one on each main line, in addition to the solenoids as a failsafe. The best thing to really have with with your solenoids and check valves is a fluid flow sensor, that way you're always warned when there are issues.


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Cool already have check valve in the line will fit solenoid in too. Better safe than sorry.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I totally agree. However, it is to be noted that the solenoids tend go bad also from time to time. I'm saying this because I don't want everybody reading this thread thinking that once you add a solenoid, you should never check/inspect your system.
> 
> I also want to add that although I think it's a big mistake to rely on check valves only on your system, I still like to put one on each main line, in addition to the solenoids as a failsafe. The best thing to really have with with your solenoids and check valves is a fluid flow sensor, that way you're always warned when there are issues.


 No doubt...I agree 100% 
I actually just had a problem with one of solenoids just the other day. The o-ring inside the fitting going IN the solenoid was leaking. So every time the the pump cut on fluid leaked out/back sprayed out of the fitting. In return there was no real line pressure so the mixture was just drizzling out of the nozzle as well. I like to check the operation of my system at least once a month just to make sure everything is copasetic. I do need to get a flow sensor...:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ Yup, happens more often than you think and that is why the flow sensor is your friend. Once you have a good baseline, any anomaly will show up on the gauge. Before my flow sensor days, I used to disconnect every nozzle in the system and test them before race day. You'll be surprise how often there was an issue. 

The most common issue is at the nozzles themselves. From clogged filter to dislodged floater and obstructed tip hole, lots of thing go wrong in practice to make those nozzles only dribble water into your motor because of a lack of flow. That's why I tell people don't use windshield washer fluid but I get attacked for it (with my car running on the ragged edge I can't afford issues at full boost, maybe others can  ).


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Does it matter where in line solenoid is fitted??? Use tank in the boot (trunk to you state side boys). Also got pump where spare wheel is and got check valve there too.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

shaft6s9 said:


> Does it matter where in line solenoid is fitted??? Use tank in the boot (trunk to you state side boys). Also got pump where spare wheel is and got check valve there too.


 It does matter! The closest possible to the nozzle is best, so when the solenoid is shut there is less volume to be potentially sucked in by vacuum.


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## shaft6s9 (Oct 11, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> It does matter! The closest possible to the nozzle is best, so when the solenoid is shut there is less volume to be potentially sucked in by vacuum.


 cool hopefully all parts be here this week ordered throttle spacer from usrt not sure on time from states to uk on that part. All good learning something new every day.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

A question for you folks. When you quote the pump pressure,say 200 psi, are you talking static pressure or pressure at flow?


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Atomic Ed said:


> A question for you folks. When you quote the pump pressure,say 200 psi, are you talking static pressure or pressure at flow?


 Flow Pressure 
I'm not a huge fluid dynamics guy so someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Normally static pressure is measured in inches of water(WC) with a slacktube/manometer. The pump pressure is measured in psi. USRT makes a niffty little gauge you can put in line anywhere and measure pump pressure and it measures in psi and bar.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> Flow Pressure
> I'm not a huge fluid dynamics guy so someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Normally static pressure is measured in inches of water(WC) with a slacktube/manometer. The pump pressure is measured in psi. USRT makes a niffty little gauge you can put in line anywhere and measure pump pressure and it measures in psi and bar.


 Thanks! I'm going to play around with an idea just to see if it will work. I might have to grab one of those gauges from USRT.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

A great link to madmax's direct port thread

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...Charge-Cooling-quot-a-different-approach-quot


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Malant said:


> Have a solenoid mounted right before the manifold block, if I see any ill effects I will move to a solenoid per runner but as of now I have not seen the need to do so :thumbup:


^^


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## ZachSav (Nov 12, 2011)

Crazy this keeps popping up. Im in the market right now to my winter build and im pretty much 100% on running water/meth and a custom tune. Ive been talking to a few people about the goods/bads with this set-up and im pretty sure its a lot better than me going big turbo at this point (and a hell of a lot cheaper). 

EDITED: Found my answer to the question i just removed


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## rick61 (Apr 5, 2015)

where can i get the tune?


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## kg6dxn (May 4, 2012)

Here's a tip.

I run a cooling mist progressive meth controller without a solenoid output. I used a SOLID STATE DC relay and powered it from the pump power wire to activate the solenoid. Solid State DC relays will trigger at 3VDC. Used diodes on both sides of the relay coil so you don't damage the pump controller. The pump activating at low speed activates my relay, which activates the solenoid. It works great!

Make sure you buy a DC relay, not just DC coil, but DC output. Coil activation voltage is 3-30VDC. I used a 3A relay for the solenoid. My progressive meth controller works just the same but now I can cut off the drip, drip, drip... AC output Solid State relays will not work. This type of relay can be found on Ebay for about $20.


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

Anyone running a simple pressure switch? I'm curious when others start spraying. I've read at 75% of your max PSI?


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## kg6dxn (May 4, 2012)

bootymac said:


> Anyone running a simple pressure switch? I'm curious when others start spraying. I've read at 75% of your max PSI?


My Motronic is tuned to 20psi max. My progressive controller starts at 15psi and maxes flow at 30psi.


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