# Clamping the MAP sensor.



## DISTURBO (Apr 15, 2003)

Whos clamping the map sensor's with diodes and what kinda gains are you getting.


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DISTURBO)*

There are a few people doing it but its very secretive here on the Vortex. No one wants to share any info on it. Although that’s not a bad thing. I think if you don’t know exactly what you are doing this could represent the beginning of the end of your engine and turbo.







Good luck finding out.


_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 7:24 PM 9-14-2003_


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## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DISTURBO)*

*[email protected]@19psi with 2.2 60' with pump gas 
[email protected] with pump gas 
Revo rock's.* 
ok so what turbo are you running? and how is revo working out with your setup... and pm me about the diodes


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DISTURBO)*

Use this information at your own risk:
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_map.html
http://minimopar.net/perf/mapzener.html


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## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Use this information at your own risk:
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_map.html
http://minimopar.net/perf/mapzener.html

Those both work perfect on our 1.8t motors... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (drm916)*

well there you go... there is all your answers... but th maf has alot to do with it also... good luck to all who want to play...


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (drm916)*

I have one or two stupid "clamp nubie" quesitons if anyone wants to IM me.


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## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Use this information at your own risk:
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_map.html
http://minimopar.net/perf/mapzener.html


this will get you going...but there's more


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## AAVwannaB (Jul 22, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nerdhotrod)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nerdhotrod* »_

this will get you going...but there's more

such as.....


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## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (AAVwannaB)*

the ecu will disregard a value that is too far off...maf sensor maxed out and map sensor only showing 10psi....thing usally dont work out all that well. Timing is pulled, limp, torque values exceeded, ect.
you still have problems even with he diode


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## DimcheMKV (Jan 13, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nerdhotrod)*

So let me ask this

By doing this, on a Revo or Apr or whatever upgradded ECU or chip on a stock turbo will gain more power? that is worth it...
Basicly since they all run rich....leanin em out a bit will yeild more power...am i correct?
Someone PM me with detials, im very intrested if the gains are worth it, and if its safe if done correctly







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
How bout just adding a bigger Maf? like a 3inch...Same effect no?


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## DISTURBO (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nerdhotrod)*

I my self use a diode with the maf unpluged.. Theres lots of people on here that wont tell your how they use the diodes and I got really good # by using a diode. I made 77 more whp with a didoe and no Maf.. I dont get limp even at 26 psi anymore.. IM if you wanna know the specs on the diodes setup and what wires to use..


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## DimcheMKV (Jan 13, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DISTURBO)*

Im talking bout stock turbo tho, with revo basline 3bar....77more whp! damm lucky u


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## Miki Kanazawa (Jun 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DISTURBO)*

You have to be careful using a Zener to shunt MAP voltage. It requires the sensor to dissipate a lot of power.
What's needed is an op amp-based circuit. It's been discussed on this forum before. An HKS FCD works too; same thing as the $35 op amp circuits except in a tidy package. If you do a Google search for DIY FCD you'll see tons of schematics.
Having said that, using this type of circuit will take away a very important safeguard, which is the ECM's ability to close the throttle/reduce boost if you go overboard. If you're willing to experiment with larger MAFs and injectors you'll be in better shape. But a mod like that CAN kill an engine.


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Miki Kanazawa)*

So, is the hot ticket as follows?
Larger diameter MAF housing
Injectors matched to the increase in MAF housing size
FCD on the MAP
Or is there a cost-effective FCD-type circuit for the MAF?


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## vego99 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Miki Kanazawa)*

My question is, your fooling the engine to accept all this boost, but is the engine adding the appropriate amount of fuel to prevent detonation?


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## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_So, is the hot ticket as follows?
Larger diameter MAF housing
Injectors matched to the increase in MAF housing size
FCD on the MAP
Or is there a cost-effective FCD-type circuit for the MAF?

there is more then once way I have gotten things to "work"...its getting it to work together so you can retain good timing and have a decent fuel curve.


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## Miki Kanazawa (Jun 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*

For tinkering, that's what I'd have to say. Using a larger MAF can cause problems with the ignition advance curve (ECM will want to increase timing due to lower velocity thru MAF) but if knock is encountered, the knock sensor will allow the ECM to pull some timing back. Some peeps won't be comfortable with that arrangement, and I can't say I blame them, but that's what tinkering is all about. (Blowing things up and learning why it done blowed up.)
If the Motronic 7E as used in the DBW cars uses the same tactics of management as the non-DBW Motronic 7s, then 12 degrees is the max reduction (from map) of ignition timing. They limit the retard so you don't get like fireballs shooting out of the tailpipe or something.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Miki Kanazawa)*

Why would a larger MAF increase fuel?...If it the same concept applies why not alsp install a 4.7 V Zener diode on the MAF...
I'm a little confused here about how the ECU will handle the fuel with the extra boost?
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks.


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Why would a larger MAF increase fuel?...If it the same concept applies why not alsp install a 4.7 V Zener diode on the MAF...


It's the larger MAF in combination with the increased injectors.


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

It wouldnt increase fuel with a larger housing. What nerdhotrdod was saying up a few posts is that the system needs to see things that are somewhat possible:
Scale the maf with a larger housing so it sees less boost
Clamp the diode to some value that somewhat correlates to what those readings are.
You can do this now with less agressive programming. Just record boost and airflow and see how they correlate. Then, when you bump up the boost 5 psi, you can expect to see an increase of X for the maf readings. Then, use a larger maf housing, calculate what it should read at your new high boost levels. Finally, strategically use the appropriate size diode or circuitry so it reads approximately around the same value. This will keep the entire control system a happy one! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
For example:
MAF...... MAP
200 g/s 17psi
larger housing will read 70% of actual so you want to read 70-80 percent of what the map sensor should read. That is where the experimenting comes in, how low or high of a zener diode do you use to read what you want it to read. My guess if this is the example, 70% is about 12psi, so you would clamp at that voltage.
Using this thinking, it makes sense since the guys flow much more air (boost much more) so they clamp to a higher level.
Lets say 250 g/s which would be at about 270whp or so. Somewhat accurate.
250 g/s in a VR6 housing would then show 175 g/s
175 g/s in boost would be around be around 15psi or so, check it out on your K03 setups. But, using common sense, this would probably be around 22psi or so, and if you scale by 70% just like the maf values are, 22psi * .7 = 15.4psi. This makes sense.
The trick is just finding out what voltage really reads what on the map sensor. I have some info from scotty passat that shows it like this:
@idle (1 bar abs.) = 1.9V
7-8psi boost = 3V
15 psi = 4V
This would correlate to what 9VW23yrs also noted, that our sensors max out at about 23psi (1.5bar above absolute) so this would be a voltage of 5V, which is highly logical.
And obviously higher flow injectors are needed, scaled prefereably.
NOTE:
These are all my thoughts, based on other's experiences. I am kinda hesitant to do this as the potential is there for a disaster.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

Thanks for the info...though I'm not very clear on how the MAF really works with regards to voltage. Thanks for the help!


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

clamping the maf doesnt seem to be advantageous for us, and I dont think it is that common. I am sure someone does it for some reason, but I dont really know why. Clamping the maf keeps the airflow readings constant to some level, and the only reason why I think that may be useful is when your car would hit a limit on the maf, and that limit would cause a problem. Speedy G had a problem like this, where if his car exceeded 155 g/s then he went into limp mode. He did a better solution IMO, used a larger maf housing so they are scaled.


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## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

i think it could be used in conjunction with a 4bar FPR and a MBC to up the boost on a stock car. I am getting my 20th chipped...but I might try this in the mean time....just to see if it would work (since I have all the parts laying around)....


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

Has anyone thought about using a 4 bar map sensor to replace the stock one? I believe they still work on a 5v scale but are calibrated differently to allow the reading of more boost. Basically, the voltage scale is altered to set the max higher at 5v.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Has anyone thought about using a 4 bar map sensor to replace the stock one? I believe they still work on a 5v scale but are calibrated differently to allow the reading of more boost. Basically, the voltage scale is altered to set the max higher at 5v.

That what I was going to ask..Thanks man!







Also, would there be any 3" MAF conversion kits out there?


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## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

There was another recent thread where I brought that up, with no responses. I will see if I can find it.
Here it is:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1022036


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (mj6234)*

4 bar map sensors aren't that expensive. I've always wondered why nobody tried it but I figured I might as well keep my mouth shut because everyone on here knows more than I do so there must be a reason for not trying it.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (mj6234)*

This is another option to look into...


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Yes, you are right. Map sensors are cheap and easy, but remember, all that is sent back is a voltage right. So, whether it is accurate or not, if it has a different response then the stock one, then you are still not going to get the right reading.
I mean, if you boost to 30psi, and the map says electrically you have 30psi, but your ECU reads that voltage, and says you have much less then 30psi. So, it wont be accurate as far as what the ECU reads.
What may work is putting a higher reading map sensor, as that will automatically scale it down (if it is setup to work that way). What I mean is I expect all map sensor to read on a 0-5V range, and if you use the higher reading map sensor, instead of 4V being 15psi, it may only output 3V for the same 15psi, thus, having a similar effect of clamping the map. Actually, it would be scaling the map.
My point is that I dont think our ECU would acknowledge another map and then just read up to a new level. I think what can be done tho is by getting a map that has the same voltage range, yet reads up to a higher psi, it will scale the map voltages accurately.
Looks like we have a 2.5 bar map sensor ( 1 for absolute).
If you go to 3 bar, you would have another 20% before hitting the limit, and the numbers would be scaled lower. ECU will read about 83% of actual boost.
I think a 3.5 bar map sensor with a 0-5V range would work very well, as the ECU would read about 71% of actual, so that is very close to the fact that a 3" maf housing (OD, ID = 2.75") would be reading about 70% as well.
This maybe a good match......


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Has anyone thought about using a 4 bar map sensor to replace the stock one? I believe they still work on a 5v scale but are calibrated differently to allow the reading of more boost. Basically, the voltage scale is altered to set the max higher at 5v.

Yes they still are on a 0-5 volt scale. The problem would be you would have to find the right one to use like with injectors/MAF scaling. Or at least try and come close.
Also I ahve not seen a 4 bar MAP. I have seen 2bars, 2.5 like ours, and 3 bars. But not 4 bars readily available. You would also have to deal with mounting it and wiring it, one of those once you go here you cant' go back sort of mods (not completely but for most).


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

"What may work is putting a higher reading map sensor, as that will automatically scale it down (if it is setup to work that way). What I mean is I expect all map sensor to read on a 0-5V range, and if you use the higher reading map sensor, instead of 4V being 15psi, it may only output 3V for the same 15psi, thus, having a similar effect of clamping the map. Actually, it would be scaling the map."
That's exactly how it works. I mean, yes you will still need fuel because the ecu isn't going to be seeing the amount of TRUE actual boost but this may make it easier to run the larger injectors without hitting that fuel cut up top once you reach the maps limit. As long as you have your maf housing/injector setup matched right it should allow you to add fuel at boost levels where normally the ecu would be cutting it. I believe a 3.5 bar map would be good also. I've only heard of them being sold in 3 and 4's though. Anyone know where we could obtain a 3.5 bar map? I'd be willing to be a test dummy on my stock turbo.


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

You guys how bout running S4 map sensor? TT? Are any of these different then what we get with our cars? Id assume they are.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

I don't think they are any different since stock boost levels on them aren't anywhere near 1.5bar. You'll need an aftermarket piece. Someone might want to check with Titan Motorsports on this one. 3 and 4 bar maps are big in the Supra world so they might be able to give some direction. There might even be a nice Porsche map out there somewhere that could be used.


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Someone spec it out.



_Modified by VDUBNDizzy at 5:37 PM 9-15-2003_


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

i did a search on google but didnt really come up with any usefull info.
EDIT: page 2 got OWN3D


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## SAVWaterWagens (Jul 5, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

Ok I tried to call Titan but they are closed right now, Ill call them first thing in the morning and try to get some info....Anyone know a good porche performance shop that someone can call?( Or I will)


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

Why not just use a 3 bar map sensor, which is almost 30 psi, and then use a voltage divider circut with a potentiometer (for fine tuning) to scale it the rest of the way till it matches the maf/injector combo? Seems easy enough in principal.


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_Why not just use a 3 bar map sensor, which is almost 30 psi, and then use a voltage divider circut with a potentiometer (for fine tuning) to scale it the rest of the way till it matches the maf/injector combo? Seems easy enough in principal. 

Can you tell us where to buy one please?


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

Pretty much. That's what I've been saying. So, nobody on here knows anywhere else that sells 3 bar maps?


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (halchka99)*

Where to buy which? If you mean a voltage divider circut it's basically just some resistors, you can probably just look around on the web and find some diagrams, or go to radio shack and buy a book on basic circuts. Basically what the circut does is just what it's name implys, it divides the voltage. Say the voltage coming out of the map is 5 volts and you only want the ecy to "see" 3.5 volts. The circut will divide the voltage such that 3.5 goes to the ecu and the remaining 1.5 volt is basically dumped back to ground.


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Pretty much. That's what I've been saying. So, nobody on here knows anywhere else that sells 3 bar maps?

Hmmm, it would be nice if there was one that was the same physical size, had the same mounting and same plug as ours ours, huh? Otherwise I guess we would need to have an adapter machined or something...


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_
Hmmm, it would be nice if there was one that was the same physical size, had the same mounting and same plug as ours ours, huh? Otherwise I guess we would need to have an adapter machined or something...

How bout some splicing? hardwiring?


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

Wouldn't be that hard to mount it. I'm not worried about that. What do you mean about the divider though? If you're going to clamp the signal at a certain point or bleed off voltage than you might as well just use a diode.







Using a higher scaled map will allow it to read the same amount of voltage without seeing the increased boost. In THEORY, if you have your maf/injector combo sized correctly then it should work. It's all trial and error. Like I said....I'll be a test dummy with my stock turbo. I'll buy the map sensor as soon as I find a 3 or 3.5 bar and if someone will donate a vr6 maf housing and let me borrow some 30 or 32lb. injectors we'll see how it works. I aint skeered!!!!


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Found an AEM 3.5bar map sensor, but at over 100 bux dont know if it is what we are looking for. Seems the GM 3 bar map sensors are pretty cheap.


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

A voltage divider and a diode are completely different. The diode is going to send the ecu the actual signal until it reaches some level and then bam, flat line above that. The divider circut is going to _scale_ the signal from start to finish by a percent, the same way using a larger maf housing will scale the maf reading be decreasing air velocity. IMO scaling the map signal w/ a higher rated sensor and/or a voltage divider is a much better way to do it than using a diode, and I believe it will work much better with the maf/injector combo. It will also allow the ecu to have more contorol over what the engine is doing, only it will be producing much more power than it thinks it is.








Edit: The other advantage of using say a 3 bar map snesor and a voltage divider is adjustability, which is analogous to using an adjustable fpr with the maf housing/injector combo. The more built in adjustability in any experimental system the higher the likelyhood of it being successful.


_Modified by MEDoc at 6:06 PM 9-15-2003_


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

I fully agree, the adjustability is great.
But, if we are going to use a voltage divider (which should be easy enough to design if we have some sort of idea of what the circuitry and impedance levels are) then you might as well keep your stock map sensor in. There is no point to go to a higher reading map sensor AND the voltage divider circuitry.


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

That depends on how much boost you want to run. I was under the assumption the guy who started this thread was probably going to be going for big boost, ie above what the stock map sensor can handle. In that case I would recomend say a 3 bar + voltage divider circut. For the rest of us that 23-24 psi would be enough, you are absolutely right, only need the voltage divider in theory. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

if this all works out...does it eliminate the need for a chip? Regardless of stock ko3 or an upgraded turbo?


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

Yep, youre right. Had to think about it some more. Otherwise, it just clamps again at max value. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Looks like GM 3 bar maps can be had for 40 bucks or so. More attractive then the 130 or so for the AEM, but I think the AEM would be golden personally. That should be darn close to the same scale as going to a VR6 housing.
If you were local I would give you the housing I have. You should be able to go to a dealer and ask them for any old housings or bad maf's they have lying around, maybe buy someone a coffee or sneak him a few bucks. Worst case you can get them for 15 shipped from "rice-eater" or something similar...


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*

I thought for a second this puppy had an adjustable clamp but now I am not sure. Somebody read the info, it says adjustable hard clamping level or something to that tune.
http://www.splitsec.com/products/vc2/vc2ds.htm


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (mj6234)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mj6234* »_
Correct. You don't need more range because the voltage divider "extends" the range of the stock MAP.

Nope, it doesnt. I made that mistake in thinking too. What happens is the map still maxes out at 1.5 bar, so instead of the ECU reading 5V it will only read a percentage of that, so if you decided to boost say 25psi or 30 psi, then it would still read the same value. Think about it. I was on the same page as you. The map is maxed out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (mj6234)*

Nope, voltage divider does not "extend" the range of the map, it extends the amount of boost you can run by fooling the ecu into seeing less boost. There is a big difference. Even with a voltage divider, the map is still going to be pegged at 23-24 psi and go flat above that. At that point it is going to behave like there is a diode in the circut.
LOL, you beat me to it 337










_Modified by MEDoc at 6:21 PM 9-15-2003_


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## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_Nope, voltage divider does not "extend" the range of the map, it extends the amount of boost you can run by fooling the ecu into seeing less boost. There is a big difference. Even with a voltage divider, the map is still going to be pegged at 23-24 psi and go flat above that. At that point it is going to behave like there is a diode in the circut.

I see, you are right.


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_if this all works out...does it eliminate the need for a chip? Regardless of stock ko3 or an upgraded turbo?

I think 1.8t3t40e can answer that! 300+whp on stock programming. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Will it replace chips? no, and I wouldnt recommend it either. But, it is mighty attractive, yet fully capable of being destructive too!


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Good discussion








Reminds me of back in the day when the whole concept of matching maf housings and injectors was new. Power to the people! Adjustability is the key to all this, I really don't see any reason we cant's retain our maf's and map's and just scale everything and make mad amounts of power with smoothness to boot. I only wish I had the time and money now to experiment will all this stuff instead of just theorizing about it


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## DISTURBO (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: (new 337)*

The reason I run a diode is to pull more timming . The more boost you run the more timming the ecu will pull back and thats what hurts the # people are getting.. and if the car only see's 15psi vs 19psi the timming will stay up and let you make more power..or the other was way check valves to bleed off the extra boost on the map.


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## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

So do you need a divider if you get a higher bar MAP? For example, if you had a 3.5 bar map and it was still 0-5V scaled, it would see different (lower) voltages at the same pressure, in effect already being "clamped". Is the voltage divider just for (downward) voltage adjustablility?


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (mj6234)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mj6234* »_So do you need a divider if you get a higher bar MAP? For example, if you had a 3.5 bar map and it was still 0-5V scaled, it would see different (lower) voltages at the same pressure, in effect already being "clamped". Is the voltage divider just for (downward) voltage adjustablility?

No. If you have a 3.5 bar map, then that means at 5V it is reading 3.5bar (or 2.5 bar boost). Our 2.5bar map outputs 5V at 2.5 bar. (1.5 bar of boost). So, when you use a higher rated map sensor, with the same voltage, it will read less voltage. The ECU sees this voltage and that is what tells everything else it is only 15 psi instead of being the actual 22 psi. See what I mean.
About the divider, it will run out and serve as a clamp too, when the map sensor runs out.
So, that is why MEDoc suggested a cheap 3 bar map sensor. It will scale the readings in effect to be about 83% of the actual boost (or so). Then, you can use the voltage divider, and the divider will scale as well, but with a potentiometer you can fine tune it to dial it in. However, if for some reason you go beyond that 3 bar it is capable of, it will still only read 3 bar, just like how our sensor doesnt change its readings from 2.5 bar and above, it stays the same. The only difference is that with the voltage divider, you actually have a little less then what the limit of the sensor is, since it is bleeding off some voltage, so when you are boosting and getting that 3 bar, it may only output 4.5V instead of the 5V due to the limit of the voltage divider.







for good discussions. It was about a year ago MEDoc when we started going into all that injectors/maf discussion, I remember discussing it with you. I agree, theory is cool, but I just wish I had the capabilities to practice as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (mj6234)*

Depends on how much boost you want to run. 3.5 bars is ~ 37 psi. How much boost do you want to run? I think for most people the stock map and a divider should be fine --> 24 psi. For other people, maybe a 3 bar map + divider --> 30 psi. 
I'm not sure if I answered your question, but basically putting in a higher rated map sensor will scale the reading similar to a voltage divider, but w/o the adjustability, and it will also raise the celing on the max boost it can measure.


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

You guys mentioned the cost factor and how most of us just cant go around doin trial and error. My question is, what are the expensive componets here. The obvious would be the injectors. As stated above the MAF housing you can come by a few different cost efficient ways. So that leaves the MAP itself and the diodes? How much are we looking here as far as cost? How bout a break down of the parts you guys think are needed to get this goin?
Sorry for the questions guys i wish i had more positive input then just questions


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_You guys mentioned the cost factor and how most of us just cant go around doin trial and error. My question is, what are the expensive componets here. The obvious would be the injectors. As stated above the MAF housing you can come by a few different cost efficient ways. So that leaves the MAP itself and the diodes? How much are we looking here as far as cost? How bout a break down of the parts you guys think are needed to get this goin?
Sorry for the questions guys i wish i had more positive input then just questions









The costs savings are that of running K03 or even stock programming on large custom turbo setups. So, you would already inherit spending money on injectors, that is a given. Usually under 200 bux should do it.
Map sensors, well, it seems the GM one can be had for around 50 bucks. The resistors and other components needed for a voltage divider will run you no more than 10 dollars at Frye's or Radioshack. The easiest thing, the zener diode to clamp, is like 2 bux. Hence the attractions.
Lets see, spend some time "tuning" or try to find programming to suffice which will cost a minimum of 500 bux. Not really a tough choice. I think with just a voltage divider on the stock map, like MEDoc said, should get it done. I mean, more than 23psi is pretty intense. nerdhotrod and 1.8t3t04e have well over 300whp on the stock map sensor, that alone says it.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

So, how do I make one of these dividers. Sorry, I know I brought up the 3 bar map idea but I got kinda lost with the divider. How would this work in conjunction with the stock map? I guess I just don't understand how with the stock map maxed at 1.5 bar, the divider will allow more than than when at 1.5 bar it's at 5v? Glad we got some knowledge around here! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## KICKINGTI (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

i dont have any input right now, im reading eveything and learning alot, im trying to get diagrams goings and all fun stuff to see how i could work this out. But this is the best thread ive ever seen on the vortex since ive been around.







heres one for all the ppl who have contributed


----------



## DISTURBO (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (KICKINGTI)*








I agree http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (KICKINGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *KICKINGTI* »_ But this is the best thread ive ever seen on the vortex since ive been around.







heres one for all the ppl who have contributed

Yes but will it make my BOV louder and do you think my OZ Super Ts will look good painted gray?








Seriously though, my wife is an Electronics Geek so if someone can draw up a circuit we can make them. Heck we have a whole tool box full of parts and what we don’t have I will buy, you know, for the cause.








BTW does anyone know if these colors or correct? I mean I could go check them with my meter but thought I would ask first.
3 Wires coming out of MAP
brown/blue =Ground
lila/gray = MAP signal
lila/green = Power








I also found this........
GM's AC-Delco division has a 3-Bar MAP sensor that was used on the 1989 Turbo Trans AM 3.8L V6. It is P/N 1#213-101 (1#1604-0749). 
and this
http://www.carrollsuperchargin....html



_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 6:39 PM 9-15-2003_


----------



## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
Yes but will it make my BOV louder and do you think my OZ Super Ts will look good painted gray?








Seriously though, my wife is an Electronics Geek so if someone can draw up a circuit we can make them. Heck we have a whole tool box full of parts and what we don’t have I will buy, you know, for the cause.








BTW does anyone know if these colors or correct? I mean I could go check them with my meter but thought I would ask first.
3 Wires coming out of MAP
brown/blue =Ground
lila/gray = MAP signal
lila/green = Power








I also found this........
* GM's AC-Delco division has a 3-Bar MAP sensor that was used on the 1989 Turbo Trans AM 3.8L V6. It is P/N 1#213-101 (1#1604-0749). *
and this
http://www.carrollsuperchargin....html
_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 6:39 PM 9-15-2003_

gmpartsdirect.com 49 bucks here...


_Modified by nerdhotrod at 2:49 AM 9-16-2003_


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

yes this is a great thread.
last year when i had my tiptronic jetta, i wanted run more than 23-24 psi. [email protected] toyed with the idea of the map sensor and potentiometer to get rid of my limp. i didnt care about the already beatn ko3, so for fun, we hooked up a tiny dry shot of nitrous, into the rubber intake tube AFTER the maf. sorta like a littel spool shot. then i ran a WET 75 shot into your typical IC pipe by the throttle body.
with a giac version 10 chip, an MBC, and the potentiometer on the map sensor ive seen my boost gauge spike to 26-27 psi, and HOLD 24 up to around 5krpm. well beyond efficiency range? yes, but we were toying seeing how far it woudl take it. 
i think taht what you guys are talking about just might be the ticket, and as far as the map/injector combo, and in reference to timing, what in theory would i get (injector,map,etc) wise to run more timing, or retain more timing i should say. i have minimal access to some stuff(vr6 housing, old porshe MAPS, etc.)
and wallah, i have a 20thae, so i have 225 injectors already.. i really want to get dumb issues sorted out. i know i can hit 200wheel with my current mods and having the right setup. ive watched the vag countless times and timing is killing me everytime. just when i get it right, things change a bit(heat, heatsoak, or cooler temps resulting in higher boost resulting in less timing.) so i would like to run under the limits of timing pullback as much as possible.


----------



## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (2boosted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2boosted* »_and wallah, i have a 20thae, so i have 225 injectors already

They don't. You have the same injectors every other AWP has.


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (mj6234)*

oops i meant i already have 225 injectors for my 20thae. what imeant by this is i have a relatively fresh awp, as for testing purposes, because the gremlins in our1.8t always make things tricky, esp. after playing with them a bit.


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (2boosted)*

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...63495 

Was browsing around
EDIT: Page 3 gets OWN3D too.


----------



## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_ http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...63495 

Was browsing around
EDIT: Page 3 gets OWN3D too.

49 at the place I listed...plus 4 bucks for the plug. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

That's what I found
http://www.bosch.com.au/sat/mo...p.pdf


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

has anybody talked about how to keep the A/F steady?...cheating the MAP to hide boost sounds like a good way to detonation...i'm sure i'm wrong, but could some one tell me why?...


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

Are these senors plug and play?...


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

0281002437, 456, and 576 look like the stock one to me.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

It seems as though we would be using the 0281002119 b/c of the 22.05 psi cut-off.
2.5 x 14.7 = 36.75 psi - 14.7 psi = 22.05 psi @ 5V
Correct me if I'm wrong








_Modified by Don R at 1:04 PM 9-16-2003_


_Modified by Don R at 1:05 PM 9-16-2003_


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (Don R)*

119 is a different one, our stock one looks like 437


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

So, we actually have a 3 bar then?


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_So, we actually have a 3 bar then?

No, we dont. We have 2.5 BAR which is not in the picture, but those 437, 456, and 576 sensors in the link above look like direct fit. Sorry for the confusion.


_Modified by 20V1.8Tnut at 9:39 AM 9-16-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

Ok, so where ca we buy one of the 437's?


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Ok, so where ca we buy one of the 437's?

I'd like to know as well.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

Where did you find the bosch maps on that site at?


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

this is very exciting...but I am not sure why everyone is so anxious to change their map....
Isnt this only going to be an option for those people that dont have the stock turbo and fueling system?


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Where did you find the bosch maps on that site at?

http://www.bosch.com.au/sat/mo...Agree


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

Yep, you really don't need any of this unless you areplanning on running a larger turbo. For people who are chronically hitting limp mode though even with k03's it may be a way for them to dial in a little more boost. And for people who want to run k04's on AWW's and AWP's who don't have k04 specific s/w, they may be able to dial in a bit more boost.
Anyway, here's a (crude) diagram of the voltage divider circut. R1 is a fixed resistor, R2 is a potentiometer. They basically go in the curcut just like a diode would. If anyone uses this circut, please send me money








The trick, BTW, is figuring out what resistance resistors to use. I know how, but you will have to figure that one out on your own


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_BTW does anyone know if these colors or correct? I mean I could go check them with my meter but thought I would ask first.
3 Wires coming out of MAP
brown/blue =Ground
lila/gray = MAP signal
lila/green = Power

Yes, Brown/Blue is Ground. Lilac/Gray is signal and goes to ECU pin#101. Lilac/Green is +5V power and goes to ECU pin 86 (it shares the power with the Camshaft Position Sensor - G40).


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*

Anyone know what the part number on the factory map is?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Also, do you think this would also help to slow the injector pulse widths when using large injectors? I mean, if you have the right sized injectors for your application then since this is going to make the ecu see less boost than it's really making it should slow the injector pulse a bit less than what it is now with guys using k03 software with custom setups. You just have to make sure you have the plenty of the fuel you need and you should be able to get it pretty darn close to what it would request as if it were still the factory setup. Man, this is sounding too good to be true!!!







I'm gonna work on getting some leads on locating the 437 sensor for now and try that out first. For now, if someone could post the part# on the oem map and maybe post a pic of what it looks like off the car. Maybe during someone's fmic install or something? Great stuff guys! Wish more threads on here could be like this!


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Also, do you think this would also help to slow the injector pulse widths when using large injectors? I mean, if you have the right sized injectors for your application then since this is going to make the ecu see less boost than it's really making it should slow the injector pulse a bit less than what it is now with guys using k03 software with custom setups. You just have to make sure you have the plenty of the fuel you need and you should be able to get it pretty darn close to what it would request as if it were still the factory setup. Man, this is sounding too good to be true!!!







I'm gonna work on getting some leads on locating the 437 sensor for now and try that out first. For now, if someone could post the part# on the oem map and maybe post a pic of what it looks like off the car. Maybe during someone's fmic install or something? Great stuff guys! Wish more threads on here could be like this!









I'm on it!...Can't get hold of my parts guy at VW. I'll keep this posted.


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*









This was from an older cars FMIC install. Dont know if this helps.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

Thanks. You don't know what the part # was on it do you?


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

sorry no i dont have the p/n..
You guys....how bout relocating the map somewhere else? Maybe on the intake side? Would that be the same as it just dangling without being plugged into the IC?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

Yes, that would make no sense. The map would never see boost. The factory location is fine. It will still fit. Even if you have to make an adapter plate it wouldn't be that bad. Although, these bosch pieces look like they MAY be a direct fit. We'll have to see though. I'm gonna be doing a bunch of work on the car this weekend and I'll try taking a look at it. In the meanwhile, if anyone has some more closeup pics of the map and maybe even a part # it would be very helpful.


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

No reason that wouldn't work. Just don't put it past the TB, keep it somewhere between the IC outlet and the TB...


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*

oh man, I can just see how many people are going to blow their turbos up after reading this....
I don't mean that in a bad way, but someone out there is going to try this with stock fuel and 20+psi http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif The k03 after 3500 can't hold 20psi, it can barely hold it in the lower RPMs, so if the MAP sensor sees 4.5v on the 3 bar sensor, and it wants to drop off boost...it's still going to be higher than the k03 can handle at those RPMs. 
On a good note, this thread rocks! Lots of good info. I'm going to be doing this stuff in about two weeks when my turbo (t3/t4, 36lbs injectors, S4 housing, adjustable FPR) gets here, it's good to see how other people are doing it. I'm going to do it the cheap/easy way with the diodes first, the stick her on a dyno to see how she runs as far as A/F.
Also, if you have the new style ATP FMIC, then you don't have to worry about flanges for the MAP sensor, because ATP got f-ing CHEAP! See the pipe on the left:








It used to have a flange. But now all it comes with is a bung and a hose:
































Stick any MAP you want in there.


_Modified by nebulight at 11:41 AM 9-16-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Hey nebulight,
I saw you had a vr6 maf housing for sale......care to give me a break on the price for the cause? I'd like to try this little experiment. I can get some 30lb injectors to play around with and I plan on getting an adj. fpr the following week. As far as blowing up the stock turbo......yes, maybe it will happen. Only reason to upgrade for me.


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Good point. My Disclaimer: Do this at your own risk If you get the wrong resistors in there or use too big of a map sensor you will cook your turbo! Anyone who tries this better be willing to blow their turbo, and maybe (but probably not) their engine. Don't do this unless _you know what you're doing_. End of disclaimer 
Anyway, have fun, and keep us posted if anyone tries this.


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## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

that picture doesnt make sense.......they cant expect you to install a MAP that way...















I used to like the ATP intercooler. But if that is the way they are doing ti now...then I give them a http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*

Is that your 1.8t map sensor in the pics nebulight? It doesn't look like it's the same plug as the one on the bosch site. That's a little disappointing. Oh well. Does anyone know if it's an oval plug like the 437 plug on the bosch site linked above?


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_oh man, I can just see how many people are going to blow their turbos up after reading this....
I don't mean that in a bad way, but someone out there is going to try this with stock fuel and 20+psi http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif

You are correct someone will try but I think we, you and others have pointed out the potential for danger here. I myself am still collecting data for upgrading the ATP Stg II kit. My plan goes as follows...........
1) ATP Stg II kit (with ATP software)
2) 380 (TT) injectors, VR6 MAF housing, adjustable FPR and in tank pump upgrade.
3) MBC or EBC with some sort of LIMP defeat such as being discussed here. 
I am shooting for the ATP Stg II kit in October and hopefully all goes well with that then sometime after Christmas I can look into turning the boost up on that sucker (if needed). The profit sharing check came in yesterday so funds are no longer an issue. Hell I could even woose out and go APR but what fun would that be?


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Thanks. You don't know what the part # was on it do you?

038 906 051 
Should able to get it for under $100, looks like the same part number for all DBW 1.8T's.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_that picture doesnt make sense.......they cant expect you to install a MAP that way...















I used to like the ATP intercooler. But if that is the way they are doing ti now...then I give them a http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

ACtually, I thought it would be a bad design, but it actually works fine. I've had no problems with it since I've had it. It just reads pressure, not flow, so just as long as that clamp it tight, it's not a problem. It would work better for people that want to use bigger MAP sensors that don't have the stock flange. 
And yes, that is my stock MAP off my 1.8t AWP.

_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_Aliso Viejo Ca

NO WAY! I lived in Mission Viejo up until a year ago, when I moved to PA. I went to High School at Aliso Niguel, class of 2001. I never saw any modded dubs out there, just a bunch of Hondas with Altezzas.


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_NO WAY! I lived in Mission Viejo up until a year ago, when I moved to PA. I went to High School at Aliso Niguel, class of 2001. I never saw any modded dubs out there, just a bunch of Hondas with Altezzas.

Ha thats funny, my son is a junior at Aliso Niguel. Still a bunch of hondas here. But thats not a bad thing, I dont bash hondas, they can be made to be very nice. I would love an older Si for a project. Anyway there are a few more Dubs than a year or two ago but not many. AV is being taken over by EVOs and STis. Spolied little rich kids!


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
038 906 051 
Should able to get it for under $100, looks like the same part number for all DBW 1.8T's.

Would that be the Bosch part # or the VW part #?...


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_
Would that be the Bosch part # or the VW part #?...

I believe it's the vw part #. Now we just need to know what bosch's equivalent # is for it. That way we know EXACTLY which one is stock and how much we need to step up from that. I'll probably take mine off this weekend to check the dimensions to see if the 437 will fit with little or no modifications. Does the plug shown on the Bosch site look the same as the oem plug? It would be even NICER without having to splice.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
I believe it's the vw part #. Now we just need to know what bosch's equivalent # is for it. That way we know EXACTLY which one is stock and how much we need to step up from that. I'll probably take mine off this weekend to check the dimensions to see if the 437 will fit with little or no modifications. Does the plug shown on the Bosch site look the same as the oem plug? It would be even NICER without having to splice.









Anyone...anyone...?


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

I'm at school right now, and since my MAP sensor bung is right by the throttle body, I can take it off and get part numbers and take a few pictures for the cause







Anyway, I'm at school until 10pm EST, so it might be a while







.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_I'm at school right now, and since my MAP sensor bung is right by the throttle body, I can take it off and get part numbers and take a few pictures for the cause







Anyway, I'm at school until 10pm EST, so it might be a while







.

No probs...we appreciate the gesture http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

Yes, Thank you!


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Boy did this get interesting since I haven't been online in the last 24 hours.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2000)

Very interesting thread. We are struggling with a MAP clamp on our Project 225TT over here. Have a few problems and questions and would *greatly* appreciate any input.
We have run E-manage successfully at around 1.3 bar out of a hybrid GT2535 with 755cc secondary injectors on stock unchipped ECU, stock MAP, stock MAF. The stock ECU has no control over boost. There is connection between it, and the boost regulation valves since they have been unplugged (no N75, no N249) . What controls boost now is a Blitz ID2 boost controller. Problem is when 1.3 bar is exceeded 3 or 4 times, the ECU starts to close the throttle and it goes from 100% opening to 30% opening in a split second. Then it goes to limp mode where throttle opening is limited and maximum boost is 0.5 bar. Here are the related codes that came up when we ran 1.4 bar without any voltage clamp on the MAP and started going into limp mode...
17963 - Charge Pressure: Maximum Limit Exceeded
P1555 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Signal too High
P0103 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16497 - Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42): Signal too High
P0113 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
A local electrical engineer then helped us create what is identical to SplitSec VC2. A variable voltage clamp with hard clamp option. So far we've tried clamps at 3.4V, 3.8V, 4.0V, and 4.5V levels. But nothing seems to work. Here are the related codes that now come up. Note that DTC 16947 listed above no longer comes up, but we get two new codes.
17963 - Charge Pressure: Maximum Limit Exceeded
P1555 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Signal too High
P0103 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16620 - Manifold Pressure / Boost Sensor (G31): Implausible Signal
P0236 - 35-00 - -
16490 - Manifold / Barometric Pressure Sensor (G71) / (F96): Implausible Signal
P0106 - 35-00 - -
We tried clearing codes and cranking the engine to see what fault codes come up while just idling and this is what came up..
16490 - Manifold / Barometric Pressure Sensor (G71) / (F96): Implausible Signal
P0106 - 35-00 - -
When we disconnected the voltage clamp circuit, this code disappeared. This means that even at idle the stock ECU somehow knows the voltage clamp circuit is there. I can't understand how it knows because the clamp is designed to let any voltage below the designated clamp level, straight (and *unmodified*) to the ECU. So how can the ECU know?
Last few questions...
1) Can I run the car with the MAF unplugged instead so that there is no "disagreement" between MAF reading and MAP reading? 
2) If, according to this thread, the stock MAP sensor maxes out at 1.5 bar, then what happens when this pressure is exceeded? I read about people spiking to in excess of 1.5 bar and of people running MBCs on APR stage III setups to beyond 1.5 bar. How is fuelling worked out if both the MAP and MAF are maxed out? 

Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading. Any advice? TIA








We're giving ourselves two weeks to figure this out afterwhich we'll probably rely on a REVO flash or an MTM chip to raise the boost ceiling. It is a last resort though, since both cost around 800 USD over here.




_Modified by [email protected] at 4:10 AM 9-17-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

barelyboosting-
you keep saying you are gonna try 30lb injectors, but our injectors are already close to that. You need to try a minimum of 36lb injectors, maybe 42lb injectors when going to install the vr6 housing. Dont want that to be a problem.
In the name of science, I do have these components. Maybe I will donate....
I have a larger vr6 housing, a tt225 maf to inlet boot so it can accomodate the housing without looking crappy, and siemens deka 380cc injectors that supposedly have a very similar spray pattern. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
This is the starting point. You also have a vag com and dyno setup or anything else? I may donate, but I want to make sure that it will be fully tested, and tested properly with the tools available.








So, here is where we stand, we think we have a map sensor that may work, thats the 437 model right? (sorry, too caught up to look at the other link, will do in a minute)
VR6 housing
36lb injectors
MEDoc, give us a hint, are we talking Ohms, KOhms, MOhms....
I guess one way to try is to hook up a DMM and see what the current is when at idle. Then you can calculate impedance since you know the voltage. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Anyone have the capabilites to do that? Nebulight, since yours is semi accessible? Just hook a DMM inline and see what the current is.


----------



## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

sorry if it's a stupid question, but when everyone mentions a VR6 housing, are you are replacing the sensor with the 1.8T sensor?


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (roly)*


_Quote, originally posted by *roly* »_sorry if it's a stupid question, but when everyone mentions a VR6 housing, are you are replacing the sensor with the 1.8T sensor?

Yup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

I have a Vr6 Maf housing that I'm looking to use but I am little stumpped in how to accomodate it with the current stock setup. you mention the TT225 MAF to inlet boot. Is this an adapter that would accomodate it?...


----------



## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_
Yup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

cool, i have a VR6 housing i am using right now, however, i has no sensor (didn't want to screw mine up), and it's unplugged, i don't hit limp as easy now, i will run timing logs soon


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_barelyboosting-
you keep saying you are gonna try 30lb injectors, but our injectors are already close to that. You need to try a minimum of 36lb injectors, maybe 42lb injectors when going to install the vr6 housing. Dont want that to be a problem.
In the name of science, I do have these components. Maybe I will donate....
I have a larger vr6 housing, a tt225 maf to inlet boot so it can accomodate the housing without looking crappy, and siemens deka 380cc injectors that supposedly have a very similar spray pattern. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
This is the starting point. You also have a vag com and dyno setup or anything else? I may donate, but I want to make sure that it will be fully tested, and tested properly with the tools available.








So, here is where we stand, we think we have a map sensor that may work, thats the 437 model right? (sorry, too caught up to look at the other link, will do in a minute)
VR6 housing
36lb injectors
MEDoc, give us a hint, are we talking Ohms, KOhms, MOhms....
I guess one way to try is to hook up a DMM and see what the current is when at idle. Then you can calculate impedance since you know the voltage. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Anyone have the capabilites to do that? Nebulight, since yours is semi accessible? Just hook a DMM inline and see what the current is.

New 337,
IM me about the injectors, maf housing and inlet. I might even be willing to buy them if you can hook it up. I have a friend with a vagcom that I can use locally and I will be purchasing my own in about 2 weeks. Sorry, I wasn't sure about injectors because I get so many responses on what one's the aww's have. I was thinking 30 or 32lb so the 380's you have should be good. Let me know though so I can start tinkering. Any reason you didn't run the 380's yourself? Also, are they bosch style so I can use the factory harness plug?


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*

Shaun,
Sounds like a mess! Is it possible that the clamp circut is not working properly? I would try just a simple zener diode to start with rather than a circut. Better to eliminate any unknowns like a new circut at first. Also, I can't remember the exact transfer function, but assuming its linear, 1 bar of boost would be about 4 volts assuming the car has the same 2.5 bar absolute map sensor as ours. If that's the case than only the 3.4 and 3.8 volt clamps you used would really reduce the map signal to a level below what would cause codes to be thrown (assuming on your stock ecu it is at about 1 bar like ours). The 4 and 4.5 V clamps would be at or above where the stock ecu would start throwing codes. 
Another thing may be that you aren't fooling the ecu w/ respect to air flow. I believe the ecu can tell when there is a mis-match between the amount of air flowing and the amount of boost being generated. I would look into getting a larger maf housing on there and larger injectors before messing with the boost any more, or get rid of the maf all together. If you get rid of the maf though and clamp the map, keep a close eye on your a/f, the ecu will revert to speed-density for fueling and if you are clamping the map it will go lean, or at least it will if your secondaries dont start dumping more fuel.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ The stock ECU has no control over boost. There is connection between it, and the boost regulation valves since they have been unplugged (no N75, no N249) . What controls boost now is a Blitz ID2 boost controller. Problem is when 1.3 bar is exceeded 3 or 4 times, the ECU starts to close the throttle and it goes from 100% opening to 30% opening in a split second. Then it goes to limp mode where throttle opening is limited and maximum boost is 0.5 bar. Here are the related codes that came up when we ran 1.4 bar without any voltage clamp on the MAP and started going into limp mode...
17963 - Charge Pressure: Maximum Limit Exceeded
P1555 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Signal too High
P0103 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16497 - Intake Air Temp. Sensor (G42): Signal too High
P0113 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent


I am having similar problems now I put Ko3 software back into my car just to do some testing with. It works fine for a few full throttle sprints, then after that it throws the max limit exceeded code, which does not allow it to open past 25% once it hits about 15psi. I am goig to be playing with some more stuff becuase I would like for my setup to work on a standard Ko3 performance chip.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*

So you're saying I can disconnect the MAF? That would be the easiest solution. I have an AWD dyno nearby and watching AFRs with wideband 02 will not be a problem. 
I'll try disconnecting the MAF, see what codes are thrown and whether or not the car is drivable (I won't boost). If all is well, then I'll get it on the dyno with a clamped MAP and get it tuned.
Sound good? 
Thanks for the advice!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
I am having similar problems now I put Ko3 software back into my car just to do some testing with. It works fine for a few full throttle sprints, then after that it throws the max limit exceeded code, which does not allow it to open past 25% once it hits about 15psi. I am goig to be playing with some more stuff becuase I would like for my setup to work on a standard Ko3 performance chip.

I see. Let us know if you come up with a solution. I'll keep you posted on our progress as well. 
BTW, I lurk quite a bit on here and I always enjoy your posts.







Keep it up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*

People run w/o the maf all the time, seems like our cars run more-or-less okay with out them, but you will have your ASR light on and probably pop a code of some sort. Keep a close eye on a/f though! Good luck!


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*

Shaun
Since you are on stock programming, and the maf is not altered, there is a HUGE problem for you. On stock programming the limit is very low as far as what amoun of air you can flow before you "max" it out, it is most likely a software parameter. Revo or whatever software should raise this value by alot. That is one reason why we run larger maf housings, so the airflow is proportionally lower then actual, thus not hitting the limit.
I think MEDoc also hit it on the head when he said the clamp circuit isnt doing what it should be. If it is altered and bad, like it is since you cant even get correct readings at idle. I would measure using vag com and see what value you get at idle, should be very close to 1 bar, but I bet yours is much much lower and thus throwing the code, and causing mutiple other problems.
Your situation sounds like what nerdhotrod was saying, you will encounter tons of DTC's if you dont scale all the readings, you will have mismatching data, and the ECU will no longer be friendly.
A disconnect on the maf would be a good start, but it sounds like you may have to get "chipped" to help out with the maf readings, since a larger housing for you is very large, and you are already setup to run additional injectors, not 4 larger ones that replace stock ones.
Good luck, hope you find something.
MEDoc, you "forgot" to answer about ohms, Kohms, etc....


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

Also, just to sum up most of the info here to one strategic location from all of you wonderful contributors -








MAP wires
Lilac/Green = +5V
Lilac/Grey = Output to ECU
Brown/Blue = GND
Bosch part numbers for MAP sensors
0 281 002 437 . . . . . . 3 Bar
0 281 002 456 . . . . . . 3.5 Bar
With the 3 bar map sensor, it will read about 83% of actual, so a voltage divider might be used in conjuction.
With a 3.5 bar map sensor, it will read about 70% of actual, which is right on par to what a VR6 maf housing reads, 70% approx. So a voltage divider might not be needed.
Image of where Voltage Divider would be placed:








*Need to figure out what impedance to use* 
Possibly install DMM and measure the current at idle. Just tap into the Lilac/Grey cable and link it up. Also measure the voltage at that point with respect to ground, and we can calculate impedance and go from there.
Did I miss anything guys? I just wanted this info in 1 spot, there is so much here.
Six pack







for you all.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
Shaun
Since you are on stock programming, and the maf is not altered, there is a HUGE problem for you. On stock programming the limit is very low as far as what amoun of air you can flow before you "max" it out, it is most likely a software parameter. Revo or whatever software should raise this value by alot.

I was under the impression that getting chipped or a REVO flash would be to raise the *pressure* ceiling and not the air mass ceiling. Doesn't the MAF max out because it is physically maxed out? As in it just can't read beyond 280g/s of air mass.

_Quote »_I think MEDoc also hit it on the head when he said the clamp circuit isnt doing what it should be. If it is altered and bad, like it is since you cant even get correct readings at idle. I would measure using vag com and see what value you get at idle, should be very close to 1 bar, but I bet yours is much much lower and thus throwing the code, and causing mutiple other problems.

Yes that is something I found very strange - the fact that it was already throwing code at *idle*. I'm asking this electrical engineer friend of mine for a diagram of the circuit he made for us. Will post it up here for analysis. 

_Quote »_Your situation sounds like what nerdhotrod was saying, you will encounter tons of DTC's if you dont scale all the readings, you will have mismatching data, and the ECU will no longer be friendly.

Yeah I understand that. It's just I was hoping that the MAF would max out *before* the voltage-capped MAP did. This way the ECU would resort to MAP readings or even just stored maps to run the car and this would be no problem for us since the E-manage lets us control fuelling and ignition. Sadly this isn't happening. The stock pressure limit is just to low to allow maxing out the MAF *before* the MAP, therefore the ECU sees all the mismatches and throws many codes.

_Quote »_A disconnect on the maf would be a good start, but it sounds like you may have to get "chipped" to help out with the maf readings, since a larger housing for you is very large, and you are already setup to run additional injectors, not 4 larger ones that replace stock ones.

Sorry I don't understand. If I disconnect the MAF and I can run off speed-density maps, then I no longer need a chip to help with the MAF readings since it just isn't there anymore yes? As long as we can run the desired pressure, then fuelling and ignition will be taken care of by tuning on the dyno with the piggyback.

_Quote »_Good luck, hope you find something.

Thanks so much for the help man







It is now evident I have to.. 
1) Figure out what is wrong with my voltage clamp circuit..
..failing which.......
2) Unplug the MAF and run speed-density
..failing which..........
3) Get chipped or REVO-ed to raise the pressure limits and run both MAP and MAF
Cheers


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

One small correction on my part: the circut I posted is technically a _current_ divider, not a voltage divider. Been 10 years since I took that class







A true voltage divider would simply put a resistor in series with the ecu, in other words you would cut the signal wire from the map sensor and splice a resistor into it. To be honest I'm not 100% sure if the ecu measures voltage or current. That would dictate which one to use. I have a feeling though the current divider, like I drew, would do the job. 
PPS. Okay, I thought about this more, 500 ohm is probably the resistance of the map sensor, that seems too low for the ecu. My guess is the impedence of the map sensor input for the ecu is in the k-ohm to 100's of k-ohm range. Only way to tell is measure it. New 337 already said how to do it. 

_Modified by MEDoc at 3:38 PM 9-16-2003_


_Modified by MEDoc at 3:58 PM 9-16-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. ([email protected])*

Good work Shaun!
There are software parameters that trigger "maximum" and the only data point I have is that ECS tuning has posted that they have seen over 300 g/s readings on the maf, that is why I think, for you, you are hitting a software limit. It could be a hardware limit, but I was just figuring since ECS is able to get those values with APR SIII programming, you should too with different programming. Just an assumption.
About the other maf stuff, I didnt add 1 and 1 together and realize you were using piggyback setups and such. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You are completely right, you will be able to tune it like that, and probably very well.
Must be a fun project.
EDIT:
Thanks MEDoc for spilling the beans somewhat. Is what I suggested earlier a good method as well? We can measure the voltage and the current at a given and measured pressure (at idle) and compute that way, rather then on the limits?


_Modified by new 337 at 1:57 PM 9-16-2003_


----------



## FrankiEBoneZ (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
I am having similar problems now I put Ko3 software back into my car just to do some testing with. It works fine for a few full throttle sprints, then after that it throws the max limit exceeded code, which does not allow it to open past 25% once it hits about 15psi. I am goig to be playing with some more stuff becuase I would like for my setup to work on a standard Ko3 performance chip.

Clamp the MAP a bit more, but doit gradually. You dont want to much clamp, then you get crappy timing.


----------



## Eric_RS (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*

The voltage divider should still have the pot after the series resistor
for adjustability (asuming high impedance in the ecu for voltage divider to work).
And if the operating current of the MAP is 10mA it
does not mean the output current of the signal wire has to be 10mA.


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Eric_RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Eric_RS* »_The voltage divider should still have the pot after the series resistor
for adjustability (asuming high impedance in the ecu for voltage divider to work).

 
Yeah, I was being lazy and just simplifing things by only putting resistor

_Quote »_
And if the operating current of the MAP is 10mA it
does not mean the output current of the signal wire has to be 10mA.


Right http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
337: I would just take the plug off the map sensor and measure the resistance between the signal wire and the ground wire, probably with the ignition on. Shouldn't hurt anything to try. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by MEDoc at 4:15 PM 9-16-2003_


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*

BTW, this thread is getting boring, when is someone going to flame someone or start acting like a complete a$$ hole


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_ 
337: I would just take the plug off the map sensor and measure the resistance between the signal wire and the ground wire, probably with the ignition on. Shouldn't hurt anything to try. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


True dat! I will give it a shot when I get home then. So far I was able to have my hood opened on my car about 4 minutes before my appt manager had a fit. Damn commies...







That is why I cant practice the theory like I would want to.
We are close everyone, very very close. This is what the vortex should be about. Anyone can go to any tuners website and purchase all the goodies, but what about using our own brains and trying to make stuff work a little differently. No harm in that! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I IM'd barelyboosting so hopefully we can work something out on the parts deal. He seems the most capable right now to give this a shot. Another thing, might not hurt to put some 100 octane in the tank to help avoid detonation, and keep the boost at stock levels at first to make sure. Safety = success! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Which CAI makes the loudest whoosh??










_Modified by new 337 at 2:23 PM 9-16-2003_


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
Which CAI makes the loudest whoosh??









LOL


----------



## DISTURBO (Apr 15, 2003)

Well this was a good theard that I started and I hope every one left here with some info on the clamping prosses on the MAP senson...thanx for all on the info that you guys put in cause I learned a few things my self..


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## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
We are close everyone, very very close. This is what the vortex should be about. Anyone can go to any tuners website and purchase all the goodies, but what about using our own brains and trying to make stuff work a little differently. No harm in that! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I IM'd barelyboosting so hopefully we can work something out on the parts deal. He seems the most capable right now to give this a shot. Another thing, might not hurt to put some 100 octane in the tank to help avoid detonation, and keep the boost at stock levels at first to make sure. Safety = success! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


Exactly. Cheers to all you guys. GREAT work







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Alrighty, here is the pictures of my AWP Map Sensor:


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Good Man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















Thanks


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*

Quote, originally posted by new 337 » 
Which CAI makes the loudest whoosh?? 
LOL
actually some kid just opened a thread about this...lol


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (2boosted)*

Funny how sound is so irrelevant if everyone is so far behind you they cant hear it.








Power mods are where its at. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

On another note I just shot off and email to Potterman to see if they can source the Bosch MAPs (3 and 3.5 bar). If so I will pick one (3.5) up and some 380cc injectors and a VR6 MAF housing and do some VAG runs to see the results. 
I would think even with a KO3 this would give us some indication as to how well this might work. Thoughts?


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Are you going to get the MAP even if it does not mount in the stock location?...I have a VR6 MA housing, just wandering if I should get the airbox and come up with an adapter to connect to the turbo inlet?...


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

Well actually no, I was hopping it fit the OEM location. If it doesnt fit I think the GM unit would be the best alternative as far as MAPs. Its s silly simple hook up.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_Funny how sound is so irrelevant if everyone is so far behind you they cant hear it.










That's why you keep an open wastegate


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

True...What about calling a bosch location and asking them if they would have 3.0 or 3.5 bar MAP with part # 0 281 002 177 mounting configuration. I think they should have one....Hopefully.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_On another note I just shot off and email to Potterman to see if they can source the Bosch MAPs (3 and 3.5 bar). If so I will pick one (3.5) up and some 380cc injectors and a VR6 MAF housing and do some VAG runs to see the results. 
I would think even with a KO3 this would give us some indication as to how well this might work. Thoughts?

If you can get a 3.5 bar MAP, lemme know how much. Because I have the VR6 MAF housing, VR6 Airbox Top, and 380cc injectors, I'll try it with my k03 before my t3/t4 goes on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_I would think even with a KO3 this would give us some indication as to how well this might work. Thoughts?

I fully agree! Better to test it out at lower boost levels then at much higher boost levels with timing increased. Like I said before, I recommend someone using 100 octane or above just to be safe, and a good intercooler would help out too. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_
If you can get a 3.5 bar MAP, lemme know how much. Because I have the VR6 MAF housing, VR6 Airbox Top, and 380cc injectors, I'll try it with my k03 before my t3/t4 goes on. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I will totally pass along any and all info I get about the MAPs.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

...And if not I guess the cheapest way would be the diode setup which I still like


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

Neither seem to be a direct replacement. I just checked out the PDF......


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Altough you would probably use the Figure B connection - oval with the 4 pin connection.
Aside, forgive me for asking this but how do you post images or pics here?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Might have to tap a new hole to mount it but I think the o-ring is the same diameter and the connector looks like it may be plug and play. Can someone measure the o-ring diameter and take a look at the plug that goes into the map? Maybe snap a quick pic? Let me know if you source some of the bosch maps out too. I may pick up a 3 and 3.5 bar for testing purposes. I can always sell them to someone going stand alone if I don't use one of them. Sorry, I would do this my self but I work 15 hours a day so only time I have is the weekends.


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

nebulight if you still have your MAP at hand can you measure the diameter of the portion of the MAP with the O-Ring on it? Red circle.









For images, I did a screen grab on the PDF file, then popped it into a photo editor and cropped it, then saved it as a JPG file then FTPed it to my web space. Then you just put a pointer in your post to the image and whala, your done.


----------



## PatAWW01 (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (2boosted)*

WOW, great stuff here


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

DAMNIT, I just put it back in my car, and came back up here to check the thread! I'll go get it again, hah.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_DAMNIT, I just put it back in my car, and came back up here to check the thread! I'll go get it again, hah.

Your a team player man..Props! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Ohhh!..so you need websapce to post it...ok thanks back to topic


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Thanks Nebulight! This is how it should be. Just curious while we're waiting......why hasn't anyone done this before I brought it up? You'd think the "all mighty BillyT." would have at least gave it a try with his setup since he had more fueling capabilities than we even do?


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

This just in: http://www.horsepowerfreak.com/MSD_SENS.asp


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

Good lookin out. Isn't ours one of the T-maps though that measure ic temps too? Isn't that what the 4th pinout is for on ours? We can still utilize this with the bosch piece. That's one of the things that's so attractive to me. Well, that and the plug design POSSIBLY being plug and play. Nebulight, don't forget to snap a pic of the plug that goes into the map from the harness if you can too. I want to see if it looks the same as the diagram. From the looks of the female side it just might be!


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Yeah it is the T-MAP...


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Thanks Nebulight! This is how it should be. Just curious while we're waiting......why hasn't anyone done this before I brought it up? You'd think the "all mighty BillyT." would have at least gave it a try with his setup since he had more fueling capabilities than we even do?








we did this a year ago on my 2002.5 tiptronic jetta, w/ a 75 wet shot and a dry 20 shot. not that that matters, but i was having overboost issues etc.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Nebulight, don't forget to snap a pic of the plug that goes into the map from the harness if you can too. I want to see if it looks the same as the diagram. From the looks of the female side it just might be!









Ask, and you shall recieve:


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (2boosted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2boosted* »_we did this a year ago on my 2002.5 tiptronic jetta, w/ a 75 wet shot and a dry 20 shot. not that that matters, but i was having overboost issues etc.

You didn't actually REPLACE the map. That is what we're discussing here.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

You're welcome barelyboosting1.8t















j/k man


----------



## Wolk's Wagon (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_nebulight if you still have your MAP at hand can you measure the diameter of the portion of the MAP with the O-Ring on it? Red circle.


about .700"


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Wolk's Wagon)*

opps, forgot to post that, yea, ~.7-.75


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_You're welcome barelyboosting1.8t















j/k man

LOL! Sorry man, I just got home from work. Thanks! That sucks that the plugs have a different shape. Although if you look on the pdf it has the part # for the plug as well. You'd simply have to switch them out and it would still be close to oem if you cleaned it up nice. I'm still gonna look around and try to find a cheap place that sells them tomorrow. Has anyone else found a place?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Wolk's Wagon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wolk's Wagon* »_
about .700"

Thank you as well Wolks. Glad to see you're getting in on this. You could play around with it to help you get the edge when those dubwerks kits come out.







jk
What are they measuring it in on the PDF? Is that mm? If so, what does that convert to if the 437 is 22? I could just look it up online but I'm lazy like that.


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
You didn't actually REPLACE the map. That is what we're discussing here.
oops sorry, i was referring to someone talking about the idea of not needing the larger bar map, but adjusting voltage etc. for the 2.5bar map. but your right i didnt actually replace the map, chris86vw has you paying close attention to detail i see >;]


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

i was also going by the title of the thread.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (2boosted)*

LOL! Nah, it's not like that. I just don't understand why for the longest time people have been trying to clamp the signal instead of simply getting a higher rate map? I've been wanting to try it for a while now but I didn't know so many people would be interested since all the crap I got in all my other posts. Seems like sometimes the dubbers get so stuck on our highly advance engine management and totally forget the principles of what will work on a motor if you make it. People have done it for years. Sorry, I'm just rambling now. Had to get all my negativity out after another 15hr day.







Well, thanks to all the intelligent dubbers on the board who have brought all this knowledge to the thread. I'll be getting in touch with New 337 outside of the vortex and getting the injectors, maf housing, and possibly the inlet boot in about a week and a half. At the same time I'm gonna get a laptop, vagcom, adj. fpr, and hopefully a fmic. The core I'm looking at is only like $400 so I'm hoping to slide that in. I'll go ahead and list my engine mods now so I don't have to do it later.
2k1 AWW
Upsolute 1.1 bar
Evo cai
Greddy t.v.v.c mbc bypassing n75
Forge dv
custom tip
custom lower ic pipe
water/alcohol ic mister 
GT coolant sensor (Which really DOES make a difference....even as skeptical as I was)
lower temp fan switch
This weekend I'll be doing a tune up....new plugs, oil, filter, fuel filter, MT-90 tranny service, brakes, and I'll be disconnecting the n249 valve and running the dv straight off vaccum. I'll also be installing a CG 3" dp with 2.5" racepipe and dump. Also gonna see if I can go to the dealership and pick up some coil packs. Just got my letter in the mail.







I'm still dealing with an issue with a cel on cold start ups but nothing that affects performance. Something with the airpump or vct. Not sure yet. Not getting a code for some reason.


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

measureing the hole for the map sensor on the stock intercooler endcap I have here, it's 18mm. or as Wolk said around .7000


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Bug_Power)*

also FYI, it's easy to pull the pins out of the connector and put them in a new one, so if you find a 4 wire and you need a 4 wire, you should be able to just remove the pins and put them on the connector for the old map sensor.


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_









Hey there is only three pin there! Is the temp wire missing? Does it get the temp somewhere else?


----------



## FrankiEBoneZ (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Into recent topics you go!








SNAP!!! DIS PAGE GOT OWNED YO~!!!!!!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Good question! I was wondering the same thing since there's only 3 wires coming off the map. Good call on switching out the pins too. That would be the easiest. Anyone know where the air temp sensor is if the stock sensor isn't a t-map? You could always find it and use this pinout for it if you use a 3 bar t map. Looks like the o-ring diameter on the 3 bar map is bigger than the oem piece so I guess you'd have to open the hole a bit for it. I probably won't waste my time though. I'll just have to do the fmic a little sooner than expected.








I'm wondering something though. I'm not sure if I should relocate it to the upper ic pipe so it sees the cooler air and throws some timing in, or if I should do it pre ic since I'll be using a larger turbo eventually? I'm only using upsolute software, which has pretty mild timing maps and considering some have used apr and giac with there custom setups, I figured I should be pretty safe doing it post ic to get a little more timing. I only plan on running the big boost on 100 oct. anyways. What do you guys think?


----------



## filetofit (Feb 25, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Back when I had my turbocharged Acura Integra (before it got stolen







) I was running larger 450cc injectors with a MAP limiter that reduced the MAP voltage proportionally since the stock injectors were 240cc. This also allowed me to run boost on a car that normally throws a CEL if the ECU sees positive manifold pressure. I made a circuit and have posted the design at:
http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/diymaplimiter/
I used to sell them for $20 on honda-tech.com.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (filetofit)*

Thanks, but once again, this is similar to clamping the signal. Maps on factory force inducted cars are different than n/a. We're trying to make use of the entire voltage range without having to clamp and hold the signal. Do explain how yours works though. Looks kind of similar to what Medoc had posted.


----------



## filetofit (Feb 25, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

You don't have to clamp it, just reduce it proportionally so that at the maximum pressure that the MAP can read it puts out a voltage that the ECU won't freak out over. One way to do this is by changing the reference voltage input to the MAP sensor from 5 volts to say 4 volts. Of course you'll have to use injectors that are 20 % larger.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (filetofit)*

Isn't this what the diode does? It allows the map to function as if it normally would and then when it reaches it's max, or right before it does, it holds the voltage there so the ecu doesn't see anything higher. This is what people are already doing. Only problem with it is once it's holding that max, any boost after that isn't being compensated with the appropriate amount of fuel. If you replace it with a 3 bar then it should allow the scale to "shift" per say. Like if your normal 2.5 bar stops dumping fuel at 1.5 bar of boost, it will now stop dumping fuel at 2 bar of boost. And with this, as long as you have the injectors match to your maf housing you should be good to go. It should also work a little better than clamping or reducing the signal in that it will slow the injector pulse and make it a little more friendly for larger injectors. I don't know yet for SURE, but it makes sense that if with the stock map at 5v of output your at say low 20 something psi....you're duty cycle has got to be up there. On the stock injectors with the little mods I have, I've seen 100% duty cycle quite often.







Now with the 3 bar and the scale being shifted, you can be at that same 20psi but now the map should only be seeing say around 4v. If this holds true then it should slow the pulse enough to be somewhat close to as if it were seeing stock injectors.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Actually, I reread your post and I see what you're saying now. How would you change the reference voltage though? Wouldn't you have to put a resister inline with the power wire for the map? And if you did this at say 4v, wouldn't it only see a max of that 4v? That might be more dangerous than simply using a diode to clamp it higher than that. I don't know. I'm far from an electronics whiz so any input would be great.


----------



## DimcheMKV (Jan 13, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I read threw some more pages, and im kinda confused, from most of the post i read its basicly about running higher boost with more timeing???
Isnt that a no no tho? i tought more boost the less timeing you want...both dont mesh well??
Im confused


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DimcheMKV)*

No, it's not about running more timing. Just boost. We're limited due to the map sensor range. As far as timing goes, someone might want to start a thread on adjusting ignition timing for DIS setups. The only way I know of right now is Revo but there has to be another way. This would go well in with what we've come up with so far:
Larger maf housing
larger injectors
3 bar or higher map
Bypass all computer controlled valves we can without triggering ecu ; ie. n249, n75
If we can come up with a solution for timing we may have the custom kit tuning on lock!


----------



## DimcheMKV (Jan 13, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

A MEN!!!!!!!!!!1 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Im tired of being picked on by bigger v8s, and being made fun of...








I almost gave up lol, i was at the point where it was like, just face it, the car wont go any faster then 13....







But hey!!!!!!!!
All that smack talking makes me wanan do it!!!!!!!!!!!

Going to get another job and work my butt of winter and by summer time hopefully ill have enoff for a kit, ethier Dubwerks kit or peice my own.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DimcheMKV)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DimcheMKV* »_ 
Im tired of being picked on by bigger v8s, and being made fun of...










We have a 4 banger.....get used to being picked on by V8 guys....They will almost always be able to make more power....
I love my VW... Hell I got 2 of them...but you have to remember that it is still a FWD 4 Cylinder VW.


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DimcheMKV)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DimcheMKV* »_I read threw some more pages, and im kinda confused, from most of the post i read its basicly about running higher boost with more timeing???

No its about preventing this!







For the cause my wife and I forced her into limp this morning on the way to work. Alsmot sounds dirty huh?







Hey I bet I have one of the hottest VAG Com operators around.







Anyway this was a 5th gear pull with the J valve on Up software and OAT was in the 50s. 










_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 9:03 AM 9-17-2003_


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (FrankiEBoneZ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FrankiEBoneZ* »_
Clamp the MAP a bit more, but doit gradually. You dont want to much clamp, then you get crappy timing.

Actually no clamping it more wont' neccessarily get me crappy timing since it will think I am making less boost it may increase it. I have seen a little increase since I clamped it the first time.
However I am running 24psi and up down low, 19-21 up top. If I clamp it any more then I am right now I will be showing about half the boost I am already making. With the cams in now it appears on my A/F gauge that I am running slightly leaner then usual. I tried to geto n the dyno today but it was being used. Clamping it any more could get dangerous.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Are you going to get the MAP even if it does not mount in the stock location?...I have a VR6 MA housing, just wandering if I should get the airbox and come up with an adapter to connect to the turbo inlet?...

ITs very easy.
Just cut off the lip part of the stock MAF that would normally slide into the black rubber tube to the turbo inlet. Then get a piece of 3"ID silicon tube. Slide it over the rubber tube and over the MAF. Then either moutn the VR6 MAF to a VR6 airbox top or a 3" CAI with the same size silicon tube. Or duct tape just for testing like I had at first


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (chris86vw)*

I'll keep you posted on the 3 bar too Chris. I think this would work well with you rather than clamping it. Also, are you still running the stock ic? If not you might want to try moving the air temp sensor post ic so it will see cooler temps and get you some more timing.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (chris86vw)*

Thanks man I appreciate it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







. I was thinking along those lines


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
No its about preventing this!







For the cause my wife and I forced her into limp this morning on the way to work. Alsmot sounds dirty huh?







Hey I bet I have one of the hottest VAG Com operators around.







Anyway this was a 5th gear pull with the J valve on Up software and OAT was in the 50s. 









_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 9:03 AM 9-17-2003_

LOL! You forced her into limp.







Man, you must have hit HARD. That's WAY over 20% of requested boost. That's usually where limp sets in. Is that J valve causing her to overboost that bad or did you use a mbc along with it just to hit limp?


_Modified by barelyboosting1.8t at 5:19 PM 9-17-2003_


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_I'll keep you posted on the 3 bar too Chris. I think this would work well with you rather than clamping it. Also, are you still running the stock ic? If not you might want to try moving the air temp sensor post ic so it will see cooler temps and get you some more timing.

Yes I am on stock IC, 
Stock air temp sensor is post IC, post TB in fact, its in the intake manifold.


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
LOL! You forced her into limp.







Man, you must have hit HARD. That's WAY over 20% of requested boost. That's usually where limp sets in. Is that J valve causing her to overboost that bad or did you use a mbc along with it just to hit limp?

_Modified by barelyboosting1.8t at 5:19 PM 9-17-2003_

J valve, lugging 5th gear will kill the Up software. When she closed my wife was like, "why did you let off?".............








I thought it was gonna make it but nope, the spike hit and just as things started to settle down and the boost was on its way back down, BAM! 5 psi! I only have a 20 psi gauge so I was curious what pressure would do it. I need to recheck my 3rd gear runs but does requested boost change from gear to gear?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
Yes I am on stock IC, 
Stock air temp sensor is post IC, post TB in fact, its in the intake manifold.

I see. Thanks. that answers my question I asked earlier. Looks like ours aren't t-maps then.


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
ITs very easy.
Just cut off the lip part of the stock MAF that would normally slide into the black rubber tube to the turbo inlet. Then get a piece of 3"ID silicon tube. Slide it over the rubber tube and over the MAF. Then either moutn the VR6 MAF to a VR6 airbox top or a 3" CAI with the same size silicon tube. Or duct tape just for testing like I had at first


















Chris, is that the oil feed line going atop of the MAF?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
J valve, lugging 5th gear will kill the Up software. When she closed my wife was like, "why did you let off?".............








I thought it was gonna make it but nope, the spike hit and just as things started to settle down and the boost was on its way back down, BAM! 5 psi! I only have a 20 psi gauge so I was curious what pressure would do it. I need to recheck my 3rd gear runs but does requested boost change from gear to gear?

Not sure. I've only done 5th gear logs. Yeah, my up software would do it even on my stock c valve. That's why n75's are garbage and I just got a mbc and set it exactly 15% over peak requested. 20% is the limit so I left a 5% gap for a small spike if it chooses to do so.


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Not sure. I've only done 5th gear logs. 

Looks to be the same as my 3rd gear runs or at least very close. I agree with you, N75s can be a pain. They seem to be to inconsistent.


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
I see. Thanks. that answers my question I asked earlier. Looks like ours aren't t-maps then. 

The GM version should work just fine in that case. I don’t think the 3.5 bar bosch MAP will fit the OEM location. Although depending on how much room we have to work with I could machine an adapter very easily so the bosch unit would fit in the OEM location.


_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 10:17 AM 9-17-2003_


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (20V1.8Tnut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20V1.8Tnut* »_
Chris, is that the oil feed line going atop of the MAF?

no that the crappy autometer boost gauge tubing. I have mine run on the side of the timing belt cover actually, just seemed to fit nicely over tehre.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
The GM version should work just fine in that case. I don’t think the 3.5 bar bosch MAP will fit the OEM location. Although depending on how much room we have to work with I could machine an adapter very easily so the bosch unit would fit in the OEM location.

_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 9:56 AM 9-17-2003_

Yup, I still my get the bosch piece though once I find one. I like the idea of simply being able to switch out the pins in the plug and having a somewhat oem mounting setup and look. I'll have to hurry up and get my front mount though so I can work on the mounting.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I just went back and looked at nebulight's pics. I guess the oem map IS a t-map. The harness simply doesn't have the pinout for it. I wonder if you would see more timing if you ran the wire that goes to the air temp sensor in the intake manifold to the t-map and put the map right after the ic. Wouldn't you think the temps in the upper ic pipe would be cooler than in the intake manifold?


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Wouldn't you think the temps in the upper ic pipe would be cooler than in the intake manifold?

Yep I think thats why you see gains with the Power Gasket.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Hmmmmm.......well here's something we can even try with our stock maps if you have a front mount that already has moved the map post ic. I wonder if the t-map and the temp sensor in the intake manifold use the same signal. If you have a front mount with a post ic map you could try moving the signal wire to the pinout where the map is and see if you get some more timing.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (FrankiEBoneZ)*

Thought some of you might like to take a look at this. I think a 3 bar would be plenty:


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Yeah, you don't want to go too high because that will throw the scale WAY off. You see how different it is between just these two. Is there any way you can do the same using 2.5 vs 3, nebulight? I want to see how much this is going to shift the voltage range. See, the reason this will work so nicely though is because the larger turbo, maf housing, and injectors will want to work much more appropriately with the voltage range of the 3 bar. This should keep things running closer to factory specs. Lookin good! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Not sure why you compared to 2 bar, but here is the comparison to 2.5 bar, which is what we have:








Again, this is assuming a linear transfer function starting at zero at absolute vacuum. Looking at this you can see that at 20 psi the ecu would only see 14. NICE http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Likewise, at idle, the ecu would see about 872 mbar of pressure, so the car would perpetually think you were in denver or something. Not sure what the effect of that would be...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2000)

what makes you guys think that the voltage-to-pressure relation is linear? 
Has anyone actually read the voltages as the car is boosting and then plotted a graph?


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

It seems reasonable that it would be, based on my experience with pressure transducers. But I agree, soneone needs to measure it


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_Again, this is assuming a linear transfer function starting at zero at absolute vacuum. Looking at this you can see that at 20 psi the ecu would only see 14. NICE http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Likewise, at idle, the ecu would see about 872 mbar of pressure, so the car would perpetually think you were in denver or something. Not sure what the effect of that would be...

It would change the air correction factor, forget which block shows that think 6 maybe.
Also I dnt' think its linear, I'll try and check ti out, sort of hard to do on your own though while driving. But knowing what I am doing for a clamp and looking at those charts, they don't seem to be linear.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

MEDoc, you beat me to it! I was trying to host a modified plot with a 2.5bar in it.
It should be linear. The plots are for other map sensors as well, all showing linear. Scotty_passat posted some numbers long ago that were measured:
_1.9V @ idle
3V @ 7-8 psi
4V @ 15 psi_ 
So since it is known that we have a 2.5bar map sensor, at 5V it would read 23psi approximately. That is definitely linear.
The point I was going to make from above, is that if you pick some numbers, it is very close to what I posted long ago, going from a 2.5bar to a 3 bar should be around 83% or so of actual, and a 3.5bar map sensor should be closer to 70% of actual.
I think both should be tried out, make small steps for success! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif See how the 3 bar works, characterize the performance, then try out the 3.5 bar once you have confidence! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

I was trying to remember where I had seen those #'s of V vs psi. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif They seem to match perfectly the graph I posted of the hypothetical linear 2.5 bar map. I really think it's linear. That will make our lives much easier. 
For reference, here's 2.5 vs 3 vs 3.5 bar maps. Looks like with the 3.5 you could run 30 psi on stock s/w before you hit limp
















_Modified by MEDoc at 3:55 PM 9-17-2003_


_Modified by MEDoc at 3:55 PM 9-17-2003_


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*

Did you guys take a look at this site?
http://hhscott.com/93tmv/3-bar_map.htm


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

Lookin good guys....lookin good!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Anyone find the bosch maps for cheap yet? I emailed ECS because I know they deal with a bosch distributor direct. I gave them the 437 part # and I'm waiting to hear back. I'll keep you guys posted!


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

No word from http://www.parts4vws.com yet.
Interesting..................


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (MRP2001GTi)*

yup looking at all these charts and know what my clamp is set at I would ave to say its not linear, since it doesn't match to anything I am gettnig in vag com


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

Can you post what you're getting on the vagcom Chris?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

max actual boost reading I saw last nite was 2060 maybe, which is just about 1 bar over atmosphere since I usually ared about 1020-1080


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

One thing that I'm questioning though is why do you go into limp when you're 20% over requested boost? Like if you're stock limp sets in at about 1 bar. Why would this happen with a 2.5 bar map? Yet with a chip it sets in at 1.5 bar. Does the chip change the values that it reads coming from the map? Like if you're stock it's reading 5v at 1 bar but if your chipped it's reading 5v at 1.5 bar. I'm guessing this is just one of the maps that are adjusted when programming for the chip.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Is there a block for map sensor voltage that we can log? We can associate that to boost to see how it reacts going from vaccum to boost.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

limp isnt' set based on a direct voltage input, its set based on what the ECU knows a certain voltage to be. so if stock its say 4 volts is 1 bar then thats what it will set at, if its chipped and they increase the boost to over 1bar to say 1.3 bar they then raise the limits for when limp will be set to like 5volts so if it hits max sensor reading it puts it in limp mode.
This is why with KO4 softawer in my clamp works perfectly fine I can run 22+psi above 5K becuase it thinks I am only making 1 bar now, before that it wouldnt' even allow me to do that. In my case the KO4 softwaer is only asking for about 1 bar at 5K and above. When I put KO3 software back in and its only asking for 1 bar down low its fine, TILL it realizes that its drawing in alot more air and intake temps are much hgher then they should be for what its reading, then it limits me to about 15psi by slamming the TB to 25% open


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Is there a block for map sensor voltage that we can log? We can associate that to boost to see how it reacts going from vaccum to boost.

no block for map voltage tht I know of and I dont' have vesis or a bently right now, ANDY!!!!!!
As for voltage I just went out and tested mine at idle its 2.002 volts which is just about atmpshere according to that chart, but my otehr readings are still off. I am going to run to my parents after class tonite since all my tools are there for the timebeing. I bought a bunch of taps the other day and I am goig to makea test lead set so I Can check resistance and voltage ranges on all the major sensors


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

Well its time for an experiment then, someone can yard their MAP out, supply the required 5V input and ground then pressurize the map and record the output voltage for each PSI. Who is gonna do it?


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

Chris, have you tested your diode (I assume that's what you're using) with an adjustable power supply and a good volt meter yet? I know that these types of electrical components can have prety large varriation from their nominal ratings. For instance if your diode is a "4 V" diode, I wouldn't be surprised if it were anywhere form 3.8v to 4.2 V. If this were off it could explain the discrepency between what you're seeing and the rest of the evidence that tells us the map sensors are linear.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

hey chris
I think a big difference is what the requested boost is on your K03 file. I know on my revo set to maximum boost, it only requests 14-15ish psi when approaching redline, and if I exceed 16, then bam. I believe most GIAC/APR chips set their boost to about 11-12 psi tops, and because yours is originally AWD with the regular K03, it may request even less, like 9 psi. That is why I think you are having trouble, you are still well above at 15psi then what you are requesting.
Just my thoughts.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_Chris, have you tested your diode (I assume that's what you're using) with an adjustable power supply and a good volt meter yet? I know that these types of electrical components can have prety large varriation from their nominal ratings. For instance if your diode is a "4 V" diode, I wouldn't be surprised if it were anywhere form 3.8v to 4.2 V. If this were off it could explain the discrepency between what you're seeing and the rest of the evidence that tells us the map sensors are linear. 

Yes, I had alrady thought of this and I was going to check into this first tonite once I had the probes all setup.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_Well its time for an experiment then, someone can yard their MAP out, supply the required 5V input and ground then pressurize the map and record the output voltage for each PSI. Who is gonna do it?

Betting the bank it is linear, with the numbers I put above. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif What I found is from Scotty_passat and this was measured. Probably the same way chris is going to do it, with test leads and such.
Banking they are linear.... I will try to search for some map sensor plots.
Anyone have any luck yet regarding purchasing sensors tho? Doesnt seem like it...








We are close, can you taste it!







If we can get this to work, we will change the future of our little cars, if the secret gets out! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_hey chris
I think a big difference is what the requested boost is on your K03 file. I know on my revo set to maximum boost, it only requests 14-15ish psi when approaching redline, and if I exceed 16, then bam. I believe most GIAC/APR chips set their boost to about 11-12 psi tops, and because yours is originally AWD with the regular K03, it may request even less, like 9 psi. That is why I think you are having trouble, you are still well above at 15psi then what you are requesting.
Just my thoughts.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

very true, wish I could test it though but with the whole rig on there I am assuming that anything its saying in requested would be wrong, that and I can't get enough of a pull to even 5K on the KO3 file. Maybe I'll try the AWD "race" file, but I think thats mostly timing.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Just found this: http://www.fluke.com/applicati...D=103
_you plot these frequencies, they should be in a straight line_ 

EDIT: That is for a frequency type of map, but once again, linear relationship.
Found this as well: http://www.mr2mania.com/pdfs/map-sensor.pdf 
A guy took the time to do what we want, with a test fixture setup.
Every other map plot and map graph I have found is also display linearly.
CONCLUSION:
Map sensors are linear. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Modified by new 337 at 5:54 PM 9-17-2003_


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_Just found this: http://www.fluke.com/applicati...D=103
_you plot these frequencies, they should be in a straight line_ 

cool, I'll definitly check it out later tonite, see what mines clamping at.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_Just found this: http://www.fluke.com/applicati...D=103
_you plot these frequencies, they should be in a straight line_ 

EDIT: That is for a frequency type of map, but once again, linear relationship.
Found this as well: http://www.mr2mania.com/pdfs/map-sensor.pdf 
A guy took the time to do what we want, with a test fixture setup.
Every other map plot and map graph I have found is also display linearly.
CONCLUSION:
Map sensors are linear. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

_Modified by new 337 at 5:54 PM 9-17-2003_

AWESOME work man! I was a little worried about how the car would run when crossing over to boost but after reading the mr2 graph you can see that the 93+ crosses over at a lower voltage than the 93-. If you know anything about mr2's you'll know that the 93+ use slightly larger injectors so I don't think it will be a problem on ours. Now it's time for some testing!







I wish I had a bigger turbo to test with but I guess the stock one will suffice for now just to get a little more out of it and make sure it works. Well, until I scatter it into little pieces.







Let's just hope I don't crack the manifold from the heat or worse......ingest some turbine blades. IC should stop most of that though.


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

when my first stock turbo finally died, my EGT needle saves my exhaust turbine from shooting out of the back of my exhaust. i shook it out along with the 4 quarts of oil that was in my exhaust when we took the exhaust off. the blades from the inlet and exhaust turbine were honestly worse looking than anything i have ever seen in a magazine, or any other 'turbo failure article or prevention with pictures of failed turbos. ill have to post a pic >;]
also this info is great, i wish i had thought about the larger map idea last year when we were toying with the potentiometer and volt meters. i got about the same info as you gusy are, only i found that my car went into limp at 4.7V, not a full 5. i was running GIAC version 10 at this time. o also using an mbc, so going by the common theory here, 4.7V should have been equivalent to what psi limit do you think? keep in mind the idea that chipping changes the volts to psi value? just trying to figure out what was making me go into limp back then.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (2boosted)*

screw all this talk! I'm going to get a 3bar MAP sensor, put my injectors in when they get here, with the VR6 housing and Airbox cover, and run with it. I can't wait any longer!!!!


----------



## 2boosted (Aug 6, 2003)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_screw all this talk! I'm going to get a 3bar MAP sensor, put my injectors in when they get here, with the VR6 housing and Airbox cover, and run with it. I can't wait any longer!!!!
do it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_screw all this talk! I'm going to get a 3bar MAP sensor, put my injectors in when they get here, with the VR6 housing and Airbox cover, and run with it. I can't wait any longer!!!!

True dat! The sooner the better!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Hey, you guys might want to check this pdf as well. A lot more info but I'm to tired to read it all right now. Another 15hr day.








http://www.boschmotorsandcontr...n.pdf 
Look at page 40-45










_Modified by barelyboosting1.8t at 6:42 AM 9-18-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

That pdf has some great info, especially I think 46 which shows and discusses the calibration of them too.
I agree with nebulight tho, just get a 3 bar, and start rocking and rolling. I will say it again because I want this to work and I dont want to hear a bad story, put some 100 octane in it, and go a little rich on the fpr, run at 4 bar or so. I know nebulight you do have a FMIC so that will help out bunches too. I want this to be successful, and I think it will work, I dont want to read "Well guess what... boom!".
Best thread I have read here! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Getting closer and closer... need to find map sensors.....


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (2boosted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2boosted* »_.....only i found that my car went into limp at 4.7V, not a full 5. i was running GIAC version 10 at this time. o also using an mbc, so going by the common theory here, 4.7V should have been equivalent to what psi limit do you think? keep in mind the idea that chipping changes the volts to psi value? just trying to figure out what was making me go into limp back then. 

4.7V is about 19psi or so. What you have to remember is that each software company is going to implement a safety at a different value. Chris is seeing this on different programming for his car, the K04 GIAC works, the K03 doesnt. It doesnt have to max at 5V, there can be a software limit at say 19psi that triggers the code. People with ATP software seem to be able to boost whatever they want over the requested, so that parameter may even be removed in their software.
Chipping doesnt change the voltage to psi ratio. This is proven by people showing their block 115's on chipped programming. The block 115 data is accurate, and it isnt falsely scaled to read lower so you dont go limp, the software tuners just raise the bar before the panic buttons are pushed.
I am betting that your GIAC software was having EXACTLY the same problem chris is having. If it is for AWD with the 'almighty' regular K03, I imagine the boost plot is pretty conservative, like 15psi peak requested, tapering to about 9psi at redline. 19psi (4.7V) maybe that triggering value of when the GIAC programming was giving you limp.
Just my thoughts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_I am betting that your GIAC software was having EXACTLY the same problem chris is having. If it is for AWD with the 'almighty' regular K03, I imagine the boost plot is pretty conservative, like 15psi peak requested, tapering to about 9psi at redline. 19psi (4.7V) maybe that triggering value of when the GIAC programming was giving you limp.
Just my thoughts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









AWD KO3 Spec Boost from Upsolute..................20 spi for more than a few seconds will put me in limp.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (MRP2001GTi)*

With my AWD APR 93 Oct chip I get 20 psi but I have never hit limp. When I had the E-04 on I was holding 18-20 psi till 5200 RPM...Damn I wish I had the VAG


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_That pdf has some great info, especially I think 46 which shows and discusses the calibration of them too.
I agree with nebulight tho, just get a 3 bar, and start rocking and rolling. I will say it again because I want this to work and I dont want to hear a bad story, put some 100 octane in it, and go a little rich on the fpr, run at 4 bar or so. I know nebulight you do have a FMIC so that will help out bunches too. I want this to be successful, and I think it will work, I dont want to read "Well guess what... boom!".
Best thread I have read here! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Getting closer and closer... need to find map sensors.....









Yeah, I thought you guys might like to read the graphs. I'm not really a technical buff but I pretty much got the basics. Also, does Bosch use different part #'s for each country? This pdf had some sensors we didn't see on the first one. The first one was an Australian site I think and the one I posted is a UK site. I'm willing to bet that if Bosch makes this many different configured sizes, they probably have a 3 bar with the same dimensions as the stock piece. We need to find a Bosch rep willing to help us out BADLY! It doesn't matter for me since I'll be retapping mine when I get my fmic anyway but for those who want to try this with the stock ic, it would be nice. I'll have to see what timing looks like and if I have enough leeway with it then I may try relocating the intake air temp sensor signal wire to the map and see if I can get a little more timing. We'll have to see what it looks like after adding more boost though.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

That was I was thinking...Has someone called Bosch about the matter?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

I haven't yet. I've been trying to find places to do a part# search online but haven't come up with anything. I wonder if a local auto part store would be able to look them up? I know that Advance and Pepboys are their distributors listed on the Bosch site. Only thing is we really need to see exactly what ALL sensors they carry here in the states because they seem to vary by country. At least that's just what it looks like. I could be wrong. I wonder if they have a catalog or something we could get from Bosch. If someone has time could you try to give them a call? It's a toll free # but I'm in for another 15hr day so I probably won't get a chance.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I'll try later this afternoon. I will call and ask them for a 3 Bar MAP for the VW 1.8T motor W/ Part # config: 0 281 002 177 VW Equiv = 038 906 051.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Dont forget to ask about the 3.5 bar too...


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Thanks guys! I agree......best thread I've read so far as well! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Just called the Bosch hotline and the rep said someone is going to call me in regards to the MAP Tel: 1-800-283-1111. I'm awaiting


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Well, I went down to GM today, and I bought (the actually had it in stock, they must use the same harness on new cars) a harness for the GM sensor, it was like 38 bucks!! They wanted 100 for the sensor, so I was pissed about that too, because I work for a dealership, and they have the parts program that we use. The cost price was 50 bucks! I bid on one on eBay today, no one else bid on it, because I don't want the price to be jacked up anymore. I should have the injectors, and my MAP sensor early next week. My only problem is going to be a flange for the GM sensor. Since I have the FMIC with that bung, I think what I'm going to do, is get some thin PVC pipe, and just super glue it to the sensor and stick it in that hose that I have. I hope it will hold. I'll keep you guys posted.
*EDIT*
Here is a picture of the 3 Bar sensor. As you can tell, it will not work with the stock IC. I guess the ATP f-up turned out in my favor after all:








You see what I mean about glueing a thin PVC pipe on there?


_Modified by nebulight at 1:23 PM 9-18-2003_


----------



## EuroGeek (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

I've been keeping an eye on this thread. I have a stock turbo, but its still good to know http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Here is a block115 I took in August. I have Revo 4bar, running in HB9, T6








To me, the spec boost curve seems real interesting. Its a lot smoother than the actual. Question is, how do I achieve the spec, or close to the spec, boost curve?


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_You see what I mean about glueing a thin PVC pipe on there?_Modified by nebulight at 1:23 PM 9-18-2003_

From what I can tell on the Mopar 2.2 turbo sites I have been on, all they are doing is mounting that puppy to the fender and running a vacuum line to it. I think your best bet would be to install a fitting in your bung (doesnt sound pretty does it?) that will allow you to run a length of vacuum tubing from the bung to the mounting location.


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (EuroGeek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EuroGeek* »_To me, the spec boost curve seems real interesting. Its a lot smoother than the actual. Question is, how do I achieve the spec, or close to the spec, boost curve?

Haha get a bigger turbo?







Oh the joy of having spec boost that high! I would love it.







Look at my wimpy Up spec boost for comparison.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (EuroGeek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EuroGeek* »_Question is, how do I achieve the spec, or close to the spec, boost curve?

Your little K03 cannot flow what requested is, but it is gonna try anyways. My revo 4bar sps3 looks the same, except I am 2-3psi above that! Thank you GT28!


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

Bosch just called me back in regards to the MAP and they said that they do not list parts by spec only by application...He said that I would have to go through VW to see if they have a 3 Bar MAP for our spec. I beleive the part # 0281 002 177 is not a standard part # and is only for VW as their own reference #.


_Modified by Don R at 6:54 PM 9-18-2003_


----------



## EuroGeek (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

I've been thinking about a gt-28. hhmm
Poor turbo lil turbo. If I had the cash to upgrade, I'd do as was stated earlier. See how much and how long it would take the extra boost, then replace it when it was in pieces. heh


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

The European Golf TDI 150 PD (unobtainium in the US) runs 1.5 bar of boost STOCK (2.5 bar absolute). It's an ARL engine code.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Someone get on this.... you once again are the man Andy!


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

The VW part number for the PD 150's MAP sensor is 038 906 051 A.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Aren't we running the same one 2.5 bar absolute Part # 038 906 051?...2.5 bar x 14.7 psi = 36.75 psi - 14.7 psi = 22.05 psi. Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

You are right. However, I think the point andy was making is that that vehicle runs 1.5bar of boost STOCK. So the assumption is that it would have more room up top, thus hopefully a 3 bar.
Comparing part numbers is best. If it is the same part number, well


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Yeah but the part # is the same: ours 038 906 051, opposed to 038 906 051A...Not sure


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_Alrighty, here is the pictures of my AWP Map Sensor:

































Look at the Part #'s closely


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_Well, I went down to GM today, and I bought (the actually had it in stock, they must use the same harness on new cars) a harness for the GM sensor, it was like 38 bucks!! They wanted 100 for the sensor, so I was pissed about that too, because I work for a dealership, and they have the parts program that we use. The cost price was 50 bucks! I bid on one on eBay today, no one else bid on it, because I don't want the price to be jacked up anymore. I should have the injectors, and my MAP sensor early next week. My only problem is going to be a flange for the GM sensor. Since I have the FMIC with that bung, I think what I'm going to do, is get some thin PVC pipe, and just super glue it to the sensor and stick it in that hose that I have. I hope it will hold. I'll keep you guys posted.
*EDIT*
Here is a picture of the 3 Bar sensor. As you can tell, it will not work with the stock IC. I guess the ATP f-up turned out in my favor after all:








You see what I mean about glueing a thin PVC pipe on there?

_Modified by nebulight at 1:23 PM 9-18-2003_

Just cap off the nipple that atp supplied for the stock one. Then either find someone that welds so you can weld a smaller nipple and run a vacuum line to the map or use some jb weld. Used it for the shark nozzle on my last car. Works like a champ!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The European Golf TDI 150 PD (unobtainium in the US) runs 1.5 bar of boost STOCK (2.5 bar absolute). It's an ARL engine code.

So, the this TDI you speak of runs 22 psi STOCK????







What turbo? We need to get some specs on this "A" map!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Just got word back from ECS. I had asked them about the 437 sensor we were first looking at. They said they didn't think they were obtainable any longer and that they could get me a used one for *$250!!!!!!!*







I told them thanks but no thanks of course!


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Yeah but the part # is the same: ours 038 906 051, opposed to 038 906 051A...Not sure









Those are not the same part number:
038 906 051 is different from 038 906 051A


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
So, the this TDI you speak of runs 22 psi STOCK????







What turbo? We need to get some specs on this "A" map!

The PD 150 has a 6-speed and FMIC *STOCK*. Stock torque is 236 lb-ft at 1900 rpm. 0-60 is under 9 seconds, highway fuel economy is over 50 mpg, and top speed is 134 mph.
Chipped, PD 150's are between 180 and 195 hp, with well over 300 lb-ft of torque. Performance is comparable to a chipped 1.8T.


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

DAMNIT!! Someone outbid me while I was at school!!! I'm totally pissed off now! I think I'm going to hold off right now.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The PD 150 has a 6-speed and FMIC *STOCK*. Stock torque is 236 lb-ft at 1900 rpm. 0-60 is under 9 seconds, highway fuel economy is over 50 mpg, and top speed is 134 mph.
Chipped, PD 150's are between 180 and 195 hp, with well over 300 lb-ft of torque. Performance is comparable to a chipped 1.8T.

So, you're saying you believe this one is a 3 bar map? Also, if stock boost is 22 psi then what is it when chipped????? And what turbo is it? Not getting off topic. Just curious.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

http://www.tdiclub.com


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

WHat about the MAP from the 225TT. It could possibly be 3.0 Bar...Or an Audi S4...


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_WHat about the MAP from the 225TT. It could possibly be 3.0 Bar...Or an Audi S4...

I'll check ETKA right now...


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Those are not the same part number:
038 906 051 is different from 038 906 051A

I can pick one of the TDI: 038 906 051A for $85.00 CND as opposed to $225.00 for the 1.8T: 038 906 051 MAP.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_
I can pick one of the TDI: 038 906 051A for $85.00 CND as opposed to $225.00 for the 1.8T: 038 906 051 MAP.

This is good news. I have to believe that it is a 3 bar map sensor. Who wants to find out?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
This is good news. I have to believe that it is a 3 bar map sensor. Who wants to find out?









Man, if I only wasn't broke right now!







Someone scoop this!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_WHat about the MAP from the 225TT. It could possibly be 3.0 Bar...Or an Audi S4...

Someone already brought this up. I can't see it being any higher than ours since neither of them run anywhere near 1.5 bar stock. There's no need for vw to use a higher range. It can't hurt to find out though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

The Audi AMU 225TT has the same part number, but the Audi S4 has 078 906 051, but I have no idea what that means.







\
I just checked, and the 2003 US TDI has the same MAP sensor as the 1.8T, I guess it must be a euro thing.


_Modified by nebulight at 7:58 PM 9-18-2003_


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Like I said I got a quote on the TDI MAP for $85.00 CND which would be around $62.00 USD..Not bad...BUT! is it the same mounting configuration?


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

nebulight - are you down to spend about 55-60 USD to try the TDI map sensor, the A part number? I know you were somewhere around 50 bux bidding on ebay, care to give this a shot? If Andy said this thing boosts so much stock, and makes that much torque (300 ft-lbs) after being chipped, then it has to be larger then 2.5bar. Diesel engines can boost a crapload! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_The Audi AMU 225TT has the same part number, but the Audi S4 has 078 906 051, but I have no idea what that means.









It could possibly be the same the only difference is 038 = VW as opposed to 078 = Audi S4 the rest 906 051 is the same. Perhaps I'll take one for the team and order one tomorrow.


_Modified by Don R at 1:01 AM 9-19-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

I wonder if we could talk to someone with VWOA about this? Maybe get some specs on the different audi and vw map sensors.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

I am checking around that tdiclub forum and trying to find info. From what I seen, people say it goes from 150HP stock to 210HP and 400ft-lbs of torque!







A minimum of 3 bar, maybe higher!!!


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_nebulight - are you down to spend about 55-60 USD to try the TDI map sensor, the A part number? I know you were somewhere around 50 bux bidding on ebay, care to give this a shot? If Andy said this thing boosts so much stock, and makes that much torque (300 ft-lbs) after being chipped, then it has to be larger then 2.5bar. Diesel engines can boost a crapload! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Yea, I might be down. I work for a VW dealership, so I will see what I can get it for.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_
It could possibly be the same the only difference is 038 = VW as opposed to 078 = Audi S4 the rest 906 051 is the same. Perhaps I'll take one for the team and order one tomorrow.



the 078/038 refers to the car, every section of a part numbe refers to somethign specific, first part being car/platform. Second is area of the car, like intake parts would be similar then the number is the specific part, the letter would then be different versions. So if its for two platforms and the last two sections are identical it means absolutely nothing at all, they could be two opposite parts.
As for the S4 map, its a 2.5 bar since they also max out at 1.5 bar. I also be lieve they are different, but I never removed them from the metal mounting bracket, theya re held in around the around part with a hose clamp on a boot at the TB on S4s, they are not bolted down to the intercooler, since both banks are seperate til it gets to the TB.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

Oh guys, good NEWS!!!!
From the ClubTDI.com website...

_The PD150 engine is a whole different beast to a near stock TDI90/110hp engine. 
It´s VNT17 turbo on stock trim, peaks at over 29PSI and does steady 22-23PSI. 
_
That is what we want. Its all you nebulight, hope you can get a deal on it! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif May even be a 3.5bar map sensor....


_Modified by new 337 at 5:43 PM 9-18-2003_


----------



## jcstomper (Feb 25, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

ill take one lol
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Only thing is it's a strictly a euro vehicle. We need to find out what the part # on this pd150 map sensor is. So far we've only found the US tdi part #. And if Andy said the pd150 uses a fmic stock, then it's more than likely not going to fit our stock location for the map. With that being said, we might as well stick to finding a place in the US that carries bosch 3 and 3.5 bar maps and mount them ourselves. Well, you can use whatever brand you want. I would just rather stick with the bosch piece because as medoc stated before, the nominal values can vary from sensor to sensor when we're dealing with something this small. I'd just feel safer using whatever is closest to OEM.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I agree, that we should use whatever is closest to OEM, that is why i am suggesting that one from the VW PD 150, since it is VW. True, it will probably be a different shape and most likely wont fit tho.
I guess it doesnt really matter, someone needs to get just a 3 bar map sensor and just start having fun with it. I just got all getty about it tho...


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I don't mind using a different brand, but that PD150 MAP looks mighty nice, we just need to find a euro source. (Hint for Euro users, this would be a good time to chime in....)


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The VW part number for the PD 150's MAP sensor is 038 906 051 A.

Find this NEBULIGHT!!!! Find it. This is the part that Don R said he could get for around 80 CND or 60 USD, so this is where it is at. If it doesnt fit, no biggie, time for a bung and a hose!







That sounds so wrong...


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

I checked vwparts.com, and the only ones they have are:
038 906 051 
038 906 051 B
038 906 051 D
I have no idea what the B and D ones are for?
ETKA only shows 038 906 051?


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Try calling bosch and get some specs if you can.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

My bad. I didn't realize what was posted was the pd150 map. How do we know it's not just the programming of the pd150 that allows it to see that much boost though? I know it doesn't really make sense for them to use 2.5bar maps on a car that sees that much boost but look at stage 3. Even those guys can see like 29psi because of stage 3's programming.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_My bad. I didn't realize what was posted was the pd150 map. How do we know it's not just the programming of the pd150 that allows it to see that much boost though? I know it doesn't really make sense for them to use 2.5bar maps on a car that sees that much boost but look at stage 3. Even those guys can see like 29psi because of stage 3's programming.

Good point!...Possibly the programming allows for a different value where as stock limit is 7.5 PSI @ 5V, Chip limit is 22.05 PSI @ 5V, StageIII is 30 PSI @ 5V.
Why not just go with the diode trick?....


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_
Good point!...Possibly the programming allows for a different value where as stock limit is 7.5 PSI @ 5V, Chip limit is 22.05 PSI @ 5V, StageIII is 30 PSI @ 5V.
Why not just go with the diode trick?....

Naw, it has nothing to do with programing, the 2.5 bar map can only produce 5v @ 22 psi, goes flat after that no matter what the programing.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_
Naw, it has nothing to do with programing, the 2.5 bar map can only produce 5v @ 22 psi, goes flat after that no matter what the programing.

How does stage 3 see 30psi though? I guess all we can do is try. It would be nice to get some specs on these "a", "b", and "d" maps though before spending the money. Whether it be through Bosch themselves or VWOA......SOMEONE has to have them.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

i could be way off here. but the limit on these sensors sounds like a saturation limit. the ECU would need to know what the limit is to protect against very lean conditions and possible detonation. so, is anyone familiar enough with vag-com stuff to know if, or to find out if, these limits are accessable via vag-com? if they are you could go to these other MAPs and redefine the saturation limit, then no troubles...


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_i could be way off here. but the limit on these sensors sounds like a saturation limit. the ECU would need to know what the limit is to protect against very lean conditions and possible detonation. so, is anyone familiar enough with vag-com stuff to know if, or to find out if, these limits are accessable via vag-com? if they are you could go to these other MAPs and redefine the saturation limit, then no troubles...

Yo cant' adjust any of these thing with vag com. Pretty much yu are limitd to adjusting idle with any type of scan tool, thats it.


----------



## VWParts (Sep 22, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

Very nice info here ... 
If you guys are looking for the AMU TT 225 injectors, I have 4 sitting here. I had APR Stage 1+ and returned the software, so I have to get rid of the injectors. 
Part #06A 906 031J ... bought them at Impex for 520$ will let them go for 420$ shipped ... APR sells them for 500$ ... They were on my car for like a week or two. The're in the box. 
Just thought I should post here since you guys are doing all this testing with TT parts








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

do you know if a chipped stock car runs a little lean? ...i'm guessing (still) that this is a problem with saturation. the voltage from the MAP as a function of PSI is probably linear for a while. then at some point it should be nonlinear and roll over to a constant value. if the chips push the boost limit back into the nonlinear portion of the MAP's range and still assume linearity then they should be ever so slightly on the lean side. if some one has a plot of the volts vs. the PSI from the MAP all the way up untill it saturates that would be great. of course you cant do this with it still in your car because the ECU will stop boost in the linear range...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_do you know if a chipped stock car runs a little lean? ...i'm guessing (still) that this is a problem with saturation. the voltage from the MAP as a function of PSI is probably linear for a while. then at some point it should be nonlinear and roll over to a constant value. if the chips push the boost limit back into the nonlinear portion of the MAP's range and still assume linearity then they should be ever so slightly on the lean side. if some one has a plot of the volts vs. the PSI from the MAP all the way up untill it saturates that would be great. of course you cant do this with it still in your car because the ECU will stop boost in the linear range...

chipped cars with stock turbos are not pushing the boost levels to reach the limits of the MAP sensor, so they are always reading properly and supplying the correct fuel.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

isnt the limit around 22psi? and chips spike around 19-20, right?...if not, what is the limit for the stock MAP?...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_isnt the limit around 22psi? and chips spike around 19-20, right?...if not, what is the limit for the stock MAP?...

Yes the limit is around 22psi and stock turbos spike but rarely hold hat for more then a second, at low rpms, and when cylinders have not had time to build up heat, so its not really a problem if they go slightly lean, and showing from most A/F charts its not a problem.


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

The APR kit will spike ~26 and settle to 21/22 to redline, as verified by a gauge. If you do a vag com log, the boost shows a flatline at 2540mbar during the spike. As chris mentioned it is brief, and i believe that they do this safely by running extra rich, and extra ignition retard in the highest boost/rpm row of the program. This may explain my peak 1760F EGT temperatures


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
Yes the limit is around 22psi and stock turbos spike but rarely hold hat for more then a second, at low rpms, and when cylinders have not had time to build up heat, so its not really a problem if they go slightly lean, and showing from most A/F charts its not a problem.

Plus, I'm not really convinced that the ecu doesn't go off the maf reading for fuleing, rather than map. Why would it be beneficial to use speed-density calculation to determine air flow when it's beign measured already? And when our cars with k03's spike at 22 or so psi, its at like 3500 rpm or so, so there is plenty of time in the cycle for fuel to be injected w/o maxing anything out. Now 22 psi at 7000 rpm is a different story as far as fueling goes. Hell, I am at 100% DC high in the rev range even with my regular k03, even though its only at 10-12 psi by that time.


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## spl147 (Jan 30, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

i am using the splitsec psc1-001 for fuel control w/ 310cc injectors will i still need to clamp the map sensor? i will be running 20-22 psi
http://www.splitsec.com/products/psc1/PSC1001.htm 

_Modified by spl147 at 12:26 PM 9-19-2003_


_Modified by spl147 at 12:54 PM 9-19-2003_


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_
Why would it be beneficial to use speed-density calculation to determine air flow when it's beign measured already? 

I think thats the real question here. When does the car use the MAP, and When does it use the MAF. When running without a MAF at all these car seem to perform well (Billy T). Where are the deficiencies with the MAP only based system? Nerdhotrod mentioned that the MAP appears to be more dominant in the Higher RPM/Boost range, and that the MAF plays more of a role in the lower end. This may have more to do with the fact that a huge turbo won't really push any more/higher quality air into the engine below 4K RPM. Even billyT mentioned that his extra injector setup only came in ~4-5K rpm (even higher depending if he clamped the map by mechnical means)
Why not toss the MAF all together, and scale the injectors to the MAP sensor. One less variable in an over complex system to begin with. Besides maf's are crap anyways, some stg III guys are on MAF #3 @ $175 a pop.


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (spl147)*

Do you mean the map sensor?








My guess is your x-chip won't let you run 22 psi up to redline, so in that case you will have to trick the ecu some how.


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*A/F Ratio*

BTW, once you guys start fooling the ECU, it would be a good idea to keep tabs on things with a wideband A/F meter. I've used the DIY-OZ-WB and it worked well, but logging is a pain, and the price is a little higher than some of the newer stuff out there. Anyone used this?
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: A/F Ratio ([email protected])*

Andy, Ive heard of a couple different wideband O2 companies that are now using a 5 wire VW sensor. It seems like the one from our car is a wideband sensor. Can the VAG com read its voltage, and we simply apply a logarithmic Voltage Vs Air/fuel correction curve when we get the data into excel? It also seems like there is a linear, and a non linear output voltage from these 5 wire sensors. Do you have any insight on this?


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
I think thats the real question here. When does the car use the MAP, and When does it use the MAF. When running without a MAF at all these car seem to perform well (Billy T). Where are the deficiencies with the MAP only based system? Nerdhotrod mentioned that the MAP appears to be more dominant in the Higher RPM/Boost range, and that the MAF plays more of a role in the lower end. This may have more to do with the fact that a huge turbo won't really push any more/higher quality air into the engine below 4K RPM. Even billyT mentioned that his extra injector setup only came in ~4-5K rpm (even higher depending if he clamped the map by mechnical means)
Why not toss the MAF all together, and scale the injectors to the MAP sensor. One less variable in an over complex system to begin with. Besides maf's are crap anyways, some stg III guys are on MAF #3 @ $175 a pop. 


My guess is that if the maf is there it's going to use it, regardless of where in the rev range, how much boost, etc. I've often thought that tossing the maf and scaling the map might work, but I really think keeping the maf in there will end up giving you a smoother and better running car. The problem with a speed-density based system is the ecu has to calculate how much air is going into the engine to determine fueling. The boost, rpm and IAT can all be measured obviously by their respective sensors, the unknown in determining flow however is VE, which of course will vary depending on rpm. Also, when you start changing things like turbos, exhaust, etc, the VE of the engine can change quite a bit. So even if it does have stored maps of VE as a function of rpm, that's all going to be off on a modified engine. Much better IMO to just measure air flow with a maf, albiet maybe scaled air flow via larger maf housing and injectors.


----------



## spl147 (Jan 30, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

yep sorry i meant the map sensor


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: A/F Ratio ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_BTW, once you guys start fooling the ECU, it would be a good idea to keep tabs on things with a wideband A/F meter. I've used the DIY-OZ-WB and it worked well, but logging is a pain, and the price is a little higher than some of the newer stuff out there. Anyone used this?
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com



Well andy knwos already, but I just ordered that one. They also have an add on module coming out that will allowyou to add, rpm, boost, EGT if you have the proper thermo couple (can be had from summit for 70 bucks). Then with another add on cable you it appears you can log other sensors, my guess based on voltage, which means you can log your TPS and map sensor right along wth it. for that price of the base unit its a steal. And the VW sensors are only 75 from them, not sure about from a dealer or other parts sources, compared to the uego ones which are at least twice as much and are much harder to find.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

Is it possible there not one definite answer in how our 1.8T's work with the MAF, MAP and etc... It seems that we are theorizing ideals but have yet to come to a conclusion; not only, but, this is an amazing thread!
It would be nice if we gentlemen were to speak to one of the 1.8T design engineers?....Pick at the brain you know....


_Modified by Don R at 6:26 PM 9-19-2003_


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

From what I've seen the MAF is there more to monitor fueling while under vacuum. MAP kicks in when crossing over into boost. Injector pulse is controlled by the tables stored in the ecu. Duty cycle is controlled by the amount of load being put on the motor and amount of intake air. With this being said, using ko3 software and matching the maf and injectors should allow for smooth idle as well as controlled duty cycle from the injectors till redline. The increased MAP range will allow higher boost levels up top that larger turbo's see as well as bring the injector pulse down a bit to match the powerband and airflow characteristics of the larger turbo. It may not be perfect but I think it's about as close as us custom guys running k03 software are gonna get without custom programming or stand alone. I know this is nothing new for the guys that have been participating in this thread but I'm just summing up what we're trying to accomplish for the new guys that read this. Any specs on the "a", "b", and "c" maps yet?


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

That summed it up, thanks...for the MAP I think I'm going to order the 'A' and try it out. The parts guy said it might come in Monday so I'll see and keep this updated.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Yeah, keep me updated! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
How does stage 3 see 30psi though?

Only by a boost gauge, not on vag com. Enginerd already said that on his vag com log it only shows 2540mbar or whatever, but it is much higher.
Why doesnt it give the DTC maximum boost or limit exceeded or whatever? Its the software. This is a couple pages back, but this is the same as to why MRP2001Gti hits 4.7V and then gets the code, another person got it on different software (GIAC) and got the code at a different threshold. Seems APR took those out. Remember, the spike is a function of the hardware, it is underdamped for you control system freaks!








About the maf, we should definitely scale that as well. True, people have gotten great numbers going maf'less. But if you do have a maf it should help it run pretty well when off the boost.
Don R, hope you get this and try it out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Very eager to hear results. Also, you just called your local dealer and they had it in stock? Or that they could order it?


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*

Just a word of advice, DO NOT DO THIS ON STOCK FUELING.
We were at the track tonite, and my car was giving me problems, injector came unplugged in the middle of a run so I was on 3 cylinders, of course I didnt' find it till I was leaving, oh well rant over.
So we had pats car out and were trying to get some more good runs out of it. He changed some stuff around and was having som problems with the TB closing. So we tried my clamp on his car. He only has his autometer A/F gauge but he said it was running MUCH leaner then it normally does. So I hihgly do not suggest doing this on a car with stock fueling, and he does have a better pump in his car to kee fuel pressure up, it just would not allow the injector duty cycle to raise enough to compensate for the boost he was running past the clamp. And of course by the time we got a good clean run with the TB logged it was not closing and he was runnign good for the weather (91% humidity)


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## Junk T.I. (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: (chris86vw)*

I'm actually gonna put my clamp in again tomorrow a work and see how it goes....... I have a feeling that its gonna be ok.just maybe a bad run tonite.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (Junk T.I.)*

back on page three of this post i asked how you guys would keep from going lean, but no responce. so, how do you keep from going lean?


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## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*

ECU only reads max value of map sensor 2540mb absolute. APR's software will tolerate up to 2540 to redline. if it exceeds this value it will start pulling timing and closing the tb.
I have tried this on 104 at the 1/4. Trap w/out mbc 22-23psi 110mph, trap at 25psi 106mph








Clamping may be a way of getting 10whp on pump though


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

a good ten or a lean ten?...i dont really want to get things out of balance for only ten. i think i can get about ten by messing with the waste gate actuator either by bleeding the pressure signal it gets or by adjusting its arm...this clamping sounds good for going over the factory limits if one can keep it from going lean. 
EDIT: ...maybe i'm missing something?...but this does always come out lean right?


_Modified by gelatin at 5:25 AM 9-20-2003_


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## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*

Sorry, I meant 10whp on a stage3


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (gelatin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gelatin* »_back on page three of this post i asked how you guys would keep from going lean, but no responce. so, how do you keep from going lean?


Larger injectors scaled to larger MAF housing, adjustble FPR and a better pump would be a good start.


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (MRP2001GTi)*

Great signature! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Once again, for iteration, I think it would be wise to have 100 octane, adjustable FPR and raise to about 4 bar, and a good intercooler to do this testing to make sure the test is successful. Also, for iteration, it is a good idea to probably start with the 3 bar map sensor since that isnt as extreme as the jump to a 3.5 bar map sensor.
Lets be smart fellas! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Junk T.I. (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: (new 337)*

today I put the clamp back on the car and everything is fine. car runs way in the green on the air fuel gauge, absolutely no difference on the gauge from when it wasnt clamped.
I'm keeping it in.


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## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (Junk T.I.)*

...get back to page 1


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

So I installed the VR6 MAF housing with the 1.8T MAF sensor; it works fine in the lower RPM but, when I'm over and above 4500 RPM the car begins to hesitate. I unplugged the MAF Sensor it works fine now. Why is the VR6 MAF housing causing hesitation in the higher RPM? I thought it was going to be better. I want to dtraight this out before I put the 'A' MAP sensor in or put clamp on.


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Did you put on larger injectors? I would think that you might be running lean because the MAF sensor still thinks that the diameter is smaller. I see you have a 4bar FPR, have you thought about an adjustable? Maybe put her on a dyno to get some Air Fuel readings if you can.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Actaully last I checked I was running a bit rich. I had a couple of logs done at VW. Wouldn't the car run richer with the 3" MAF b/c of more flow? I also have the 06A 906 031 S (AWD, 317.46cc/[email protected], 369cc/[email protected]) Injectors.


_Modified by Don R at 2:40 AM 9-22-2003_


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Actaully last I checked I was running a bit rich. I had a couple of logs done at VW. Wouldn't the car run richer with the 3" MAF b/c of more flow? I also have the 06A 906 031 S (AWD, 317.46cc/[email protected], 369cc/[email protected]) Injectors.

_Modified by Don R at 2:40 AM 9-22-2003_

I wouldn't think that the car would run richer with the 3 inch housing, because it's letting more air in that expected and it isn't putting forth the amount of fuel it needs. Now, if it's close enough, I would think the O2 sensors should kick in what's needed, but not sure. 
Another possiblity is that the knock sensors are kicking in and pulling timing?


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## FrankiEBoneZ (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Also, if the MAP and MAF readings are off by to much, the car will do weird things like hestitate and limp mode. Thusly you also dont have injectors sized for the new MAF, the car could act weird.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

I agree...I'm going to put it back to stock tomorrow...unfortunatly I don't have the torquex screw to pull out the sensor.
I hope I did not incurr damage...I made the mod Friday and the hesitation was not to bad almost unoticable.
I appreciate the help gentlemen! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







. See I was not exactly sure on how big the injectors had to be. But I now I know. Thanks again!


_Modified by Don R at 3:19 AM 9-22-2003_


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

I agree, I hope you didnt do too much damage. Any DTCs?
Your car was running much leaner with the VR6 housing. The reasoning is because it is measuring a larger amount of air, but doesnt know the cross sectional area has increased. You should put on probably 380cc injectors and run at 4 bar. Also, you should install a higher flow fuel pump when doing this as well. Also, your timing will be increased as well since it is reading less then actual air mass, so that is bad too...
Hope all is well, lean + boost + more timing = BAD


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## UMDKappy (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

read all 10 pages, and i cant seem to find a direct answer...will putting the diode on the MAP stop limp which occurs at hte top of 3rd, 4th and 5th gear? Over 6000rpm in 3rd im getting limp and around 5000 in 4th and 4500 in 5th gear. Boost is only 11-12psi at redline so its not astromically high.
Would this even work? If the car is only making 12psi at 6000rpm and the MAP is probably reading well below 5v, then the computer will still see 12psi and cause limp?? Im happy with the 20psi spike im gettin on stock k03s, no need to get past 22


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

I'm going to VW after work to check the DTC's. It did not throw any CEL's but what came on is the ASR ( I guess the ASR comes on b/c of the power you're able to make







). I drove into work with the MAF unplugged and it was hauling arse







. Anyhow the car is running fine and really smooth but I am going to reinstall the stock MAF Housing; I noticed the gas needle travelling as fast as my Speedo







.
Thanks again.


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (UMDKappy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UMDKappy* »_read all 10 pages, and i cant seem to find a direct answer...will putting the diode on the MAP stop limp which occurs at hte top of 3rd, 4th and 5th gear? Over 6000rpm in 3rd im getting limp and around 5000 in 4th and 4500 in 5th gear. Boost is only 11-12psi at redline so its not astromically high.
Would this even work? If the car is only making 12psi at 6000rpm and the MAP is probably reading well below 5v, then the computer will still see 12psi and cause limp?? Im happy with the 20psi spike im gettin on stock k03s, no need to get past 22

sounds like you need to scale the voltage down rather than clamping it. if you scale it back with a couple of resistors or a 3bar map you will see higher boost across the board and it should prevent limp mode.... 
Im pretty sure i will be installing the vr6 MAF, 440cc injectors, and a resistor circiut on the map output to scale the voltage down.



_Modified by XSiVE at 10:45 AM 9-22-2003_


----------



## FrankiEBoneZ (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_I'm going to VW after work to check the DTC's. It did not throw any CEL's but what came on is the ASR ( I guess the ASR comes on b/c of the power you're able to make







). I drove into work with the MAF unplugged and it was hauling arse







. Anyhow the car is running fine and really smooth but I am going to reinstall the stock MAF Housing; I noticed the gas needle travelling as fast as my Speedo







.
Thanks again.

The ASR light will come on with the MAF unplugged.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (FrankiEBoneZ)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FrankiEBoneZ* »_
The ASR light will come on with the MAF unplugged.

What he said.
Also, the car usually runs rich when the maf is unplugged, so that would be a reason why you are getting crappy mileage as well.
Anybody yet to get a new map sensor?


----------



## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
What he said.
Also, the car usually runs rich when the maf is unplugged, so that would be a reason why you are getting crappy mileage as well.


i still get over 300 miles a tank with my MAF unplugged


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_

Anybody yet to get a new map sensor?

I have not heard back from anyone that I contected about MAPs.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (MRP2001GTi)*

I think I may have found a local Bosch distributor I'm going to try. Gonna be another long week though so probably this weekend.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (UMDKappy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UMDKappy* »_read all 10 pages, and i cant seem to find a direct answer...will putting the diode on the MAP stop limp which occurs at hte top of 3rd, 4th and 5th gear? Over 6000rpm in 3rd im getting limp and around 5000 in 4th and 4500 in 5th gear. Boost is only 11-12psi at redline so its not astromically high.
Would this even work? If the car is only making 12psi at 6000rpm and the MAP is probably reading well below 5v, then the computer will still see 12psi and cause limp?? Im happy with the 20psi spike im gettin on stock k03s, no need to get past 22

This isn't a good idea for you to do anything with the MAP sensor to get more boost a redline. The K03 is a dinky turbo, and can't push that much air. That is why the Chip manufactors have it at only 12psi at redline. It can take higher boost in the lower RPMs, but after about 4 grand, it can't handle that much boost. If you run higher than 1 bar at redline, I promise you that your turbo will be gone soon. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
The reason people are clamping the MAP sensor is only because they run larger turbos. Those turbos can handle 20+ psi at redline. I made a post a while back on how to read a compressor map. Read that, and then find the compressor map for the k03.
Here is the link to my thread about reading the compressor maps:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1002260 
And here is the compressor map for the K03:








You see how it *WAY* out of the efficency range....










_Modified by nebulight at 5:51 PM 9-22-2003_


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

I checked agian to see if my MAP has come in yet but the parts guy said the same MAP comes on the TDI 1.9 L here in North America. So he decided to order the 038 906 501 B for me so I'll see when it comes in. I have the option of sending it back so there is no problem. I guess he and I were missled in obtaining the 'A'.


_Modified by Don R at 11:23 PM 9-22-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Can the parts guy get the specs?


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I asked him to get the specs, but he is not able to get them. He basically views the parts off of a database, and does the same when ordering. They are not very knowledgeable when it comes down to spec (no pun intended).
When I get the MAP I am going to try and reference it with the part #'s in the Bosch Cat and see what I can obtain.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

I recieved 038 906 051 B MAP sensor and it is not compatible with our application







. the mounting configuration is the same but the housing is a bit different. The parts guy couldn't pin point where this comes from. It is listed as a thrust sensor.
I have a zipped file of pics and how it looks like, I just need someone to host them for me...Let me know if anybody is willing.
Thanks,


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

You think bosch could give you the specs on it if you called them? They should at LEAST be able to tell you what bar sensor it is.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

It's a High Accuracy Absolute Pressure senor that is capable of 300 Kilopascals = 3 BAR. It is a delicate sensor and may not be compatible for our application.
Do you know where I can post the pics?....


_Modified by Don R at 1:40 PM 9-25-2003_


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: (Don R)*

Gusy the TDI's run REAL high boost 30psi and such. IS anyone looking into the TDI MAP sensor from an MKIV?
Also and instead of clamping the MAP sensor has anyone tried just using a variable resister and dialing it in? It's signal is just a voltage correct? So if you can scale it down you should be able to run with no maf and larger injectors. It's not going to solve the 2.5 bar limit problem, but it will in my opinion help out alot of the tuning problems guys going with larger MAF's are having in part and full throttle.


_Modified by Bug_Power at 8:26 AM 9-25-2003_


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

TDI's have the same MAP sensors as 1.8T


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (Bug_Power)*

I tried the 'A' MAP but the parts guy said he cannot get it...and I got the 'B' but by the looks of it it is not compatible with the application. 
_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_Gusy the TDI's run REAL high boost 30psi and such. IS anyone looking into the TDI MAP sensor from an MKIV?
 Where can someone get one 'A'?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Sounds like it should work. Absolute pressure sensor is what you want and if it's 3 bar then that's perfect. You'll just have to re-mount it somewhere. I guess we won't find a plug and play map for our cars but this is just about as good. Especially, if you have or are planning a fmic. Does the harness at least match? If not you'll probably have to order the plug too and switch the pins.


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Personally if youcan get ANY 3 bar map sensor it should work! I mean find the range of the VW sensor 0-12v say or maybe 0-5v, then just find a comparable sensor that goes to 3 bar. YOU MUST INCREASE FUELING however.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

The connector does match...so your in the green there. I think I'm possibly going to go with the Diode route just have to be responsible about it.
I'm still waiting for someone to post the pics I have of the MAP.


_Modified by Don R at 3:14 PM 9-25-2003_


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (Bug_Power)*

Your right, their are many sensors with the 3 Bar spec but mounting it in the stock location for us who still want the setup might not have that option. AND it's true about the TDI's about hight boost but, the parts guy said he tried ordering the MAP for a TDI and it showed the same part # for the 1.8T, perhaps as you stated in a previous post that it is the Euro TDI that might have that specific MAP.


_Modified by Don R at 3:19 PM 9-25-2003_


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (Bug_Power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_ Also and instead of clamping the MAP sensor has anyone tried just using a variable resister and dialing it in? It's signal is just a voltage correct? So if you can scale it down you should be able to run with no maf and larger injectors. It's not going to solve the 2.5 bar limit problem, but it will in my opinion help out alot of the tuning problems guys going with larger MAF's are having in part and full throttle.


Sorry Rod, I just had to


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

The "A" MAP sensor is only on the TDI in euro, the new PD150 motor with 150HP. For me, I think I'm going to say screw the 3Bar map sensor for now, it doesn't look like it will run right. I bought a butt load of diodes to try out, and I'm going to put Disconnect plugs on the MAP sensor, then solder diodes to wires with disconnect plugs so I can easily swap out different diodes, or no diodes at all.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_The connector does match...so your in the green there. I think I'm possibly going to go with the Diode route just have to be responsible about it.
I'm still waiting for someone to post the pics I have of the MAP.

_Modified by Don R at 3:14 PM 9-25-2003_

IM me if you are interested in getting rid of the map. I just need to know you're POSITIVE about it being a 3 bar? I can scoop it off you Mon. along with the stuff from New 337.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

You guys could always have a flange made at a local machine shop. Just bring in your MAP sensor, and the new MAP *cough* GM *cough* '89 Trans Am *cough* , and have them make you a flange that will bolt on to the stock intercooler location.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Trans Am or grand nat?
Doesnt really matter, but nebulight, I think a few of us would 'donate' some money for you since you have a setup that can easily put in new map sensors. I dont want to see this effort go wasted, especially when it is pretty easy for you. If you were able to find the 3 bar map sensor, and the cost was say 60 bux, I will paypal you 20 to do some testing if you are down. Maybe someone else will as well. Your setup is too convenient to not try out.
Interested?


----------



## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_Trans Am or grand nat?


Grand nationals stopped production in '88


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (roly)*

Pics from Don R...








Part number and info...
















Map tip








So why again are we not gonna try this out?


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_
Sorry Rod, I just had to



















Funny!!!!


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Thanks new 337.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (roly)*

One thing about the stock map. The small tip that protrudes from the map is likely a temp sensor for temperature correction of the sensor. It would be best to try and keep the sensor in the flow stream rather than remote mount it with a vacuume hose. Im not sure how temp dependent the sensor is, but it would be a shame to tune it for one temp, and have a catastrophe when the weather changed. 
The best/safest way to approach all this map testing is on a bench rather than in a car. 
use a 5v source (adapter, transformer, laboratory supply)
use a fluke multimeter to read the sensor output
Use a bicycle pump/nitrogen bottle to apply different ppressures to the sensor. Plot voltage Vs pressure for each sensor. Then repeat this with whatever electrical circuit/clamp device installed inline and view the new voltage/ pressure settings. This is the safest most repeatable way to characterize the sensors. 
the temp stays the same, you cant damage the cars electronics/motor, you can slowly control the pressure, you can see that your clamp/trim circuit is actually working as designed. Just my experience its better to define the parts in a dynamic system rather than try to understand the whole all at once.


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

With this method using the bike pump the temps will go up as the pressure goes up.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

In the parts Database this part # is considered a Thrust Sensor and not a MAP. I don't know the difference.
Should I return this and order the 'D' sensor and see what that is all about...


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20V1.8Tnut* »_With this method using the bike pump the temps will go up as the pressure goes up.

not to nerd you out too much, butthats assuming an adiabatic process without heat transfer to the pump. So long as you dont stroke the hell out of it, a slow highly efficient compression with little temperature change can be achieved.


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*

can not disagree, but it will not be obvious for most ppl

_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_
not to nerd you out too much, butthats assuming an adiabatic process without heat transfer to the pump. So long as you dont stroke the hell out of it, a slow highly efficient compression with little temperature change can be achieved.


----------



## CruiseVW (Feb 23, 2003)

Bumping this to mark, Need the time to read through this one, seems very interesting.


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_One thing about the stock map. The small tip that protrudes from the map is likely a temp sensor for temperature correction of the sensor. It would be best to try and keep the sensor in the flow stream rather than remote mount it with a vacuume hose. Im not sure how temp dependent the sensor is, but it would be a shame to tune it for one temp, and have a catastrophe when the weather changed. 
...


The DTCs triggered with a disconnected map are 2; 1. absolute pressure sensor 2. pressure sensor(g31). 
From data loging I have seen absolute pressure range from 990mb to 1020mb at sea leavel. This corresponds to atmospheric conditions of the day. IMO the bulb may be the atmospheric pressure sensor...the IAT sensor in the manifold can and is used for temp correction. I don't see any design redundancy in the motronic system, I may be wrong.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

It most likely is a temp sensor since this is a t-map. Our car does not use this though because the temp sensor is on the manifold. Go back a couple pages and you'll see this. Our plug is missing the 3rd pinout.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

I agree with Jorge. I think someone even noted that we are only using 3 out of the 4 wires (not using the temperature wire) for monitoring it. I dont think we need to be concerned about the temperature input, since the ECU isnt concerned with it.
Also, the concern is that this sensor that Don R found is sensitive. What makes it more sensitive then others? Does it specifically give a temp range of operation? Just curious, since it is the same part number with a B at the end, it has to be darn similar.
EDIT: You beat me to it barelyboosting! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

If the sensitivity is in regards to the voltage output, this may be in favor of us. Only means fueling will be more accurate in proportion to boost as long as we having everything else matched correctly.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

Im not saying that there is a temperature sensor that the ecu will read. There is a sensor in the intake manifold after the throttle to read air intake temperature. 
Many sensors have a temperature sensor typically a thermister built into their internal circuit. By selecting the appropriate sensor and including it in the electrical circuit it can stabilize the the sensors output relative to temperature variation. The sensor itself will output a temperature corrected signal to the ECU without requiring any downstream interpretation. It woudl be easy to test at ambient pressure vary the temperature and look at the voltage output from the sensor. It may be a non issue with a millivolt error, but that tip looks a lot like a thermister 
edit: you guys are fast. It may be a temp sensor for the ecu then, but if only 3 out of our 4 wires are active then its prob not doing anything. 
in regards to the sensitivty, i would expect that it is less sensitive. 5volts/2.5bar = 2volts/bar. and the new sensor 5 volts/3 bar = 1.66 volts/bar. Are we sure this new sensor is a 0-5v



_Modified by enginerd at 3:42 PM 9-25-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_in regards to the sensitivty, i would expect that it is less sensitive. 5volts/2.5bar = 2volts/bar. and the new sensor 5 volts/3 bar = 1.66 volts/bar. Are we sure this new sensor is a 0-5v


Need to find what vehicle this sensor is for, and go from there. I bet it is tho.
Don R, can you call your parts guy and see if he can see what vehicle this is a component of? Do we know if it is even a 3 bar sensor?


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

I was with him on the parts database to find what car this is from and no luck. All it states is that is a thrust sensor. If you look at the part #'s on the pdf's posted previously you will notice that the number's at the end ascend. Our's is a 0 281 002 177 where 177 kilopascals = 25.7 psi this one is 0 281 002 399 where 399 kilopascals = 57.87 psi. This is what I'm correlating with.
And yes this is a lot more accurate than what we currently run.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_I was with him on the parts database to find what car this is from and no luck. All it states is that is a thrust sensor. If you look at the part #'s on the pdf's posted previously you will notice that the number's at the end ascend. Our's is a 0 281 002 177 where 177 kilopascals = 25.7 psi this one is 0 281 002 399 where 399 kilopascals = 57.87 psi. This is what I'm correlating with.
And yes this is a lot more accurate than what we currently run.

Good job man! The numbers would make sense if that's what they truly mean. I'll be ordering this on Mon.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_Trans Am or grand nat?
Doesnt really matter, but nebulight, I think a few of us would 'donate' some money for you since you have a setup that can easily put in new map sensors. I dont want to see this effort go wasted, especially when it is pretty easy for you. If you were able to find the 3 bar map sensor, and the cost was say 60 bux, I will paypal you 20 to do some testing if you are down. Maybe someone else will as well. Your setup is too convenient to not try out.
Interested?

I really like your idea







I was planing on getting a GM MAP sensor to try out, but at this point, I have zero cash. If you guys want to paypal me some money so I can get it, you are more than welcome to do so. I am also going to talk with a friend of mine once I get it to see if he can make a flange for the stock MAP location. Since I have that IC off the car, I can take it down to him and he can work on it. Anyway, if you want to paypal me the cash, I need a total of 80 bucks. The MAP is 55, the harness is 20 and then I figure a couple of bucks for shipping. My paypal address is [email protected]


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Our's is a 0 281 002 177 where 177 kilopascals = 25.7 psi this one is 0 281 002 399 where 399 kilopascals = 57.87 psi. This is what I'm correlating with.


Good thinking. You Canadians are pretty good... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_I was with him on the parts database to find what car this is from and no luck. All it states is that is a thrust sensor. If you look at the part #'s on the pdf's posted previously you will notice that the number's at the end ascend. Our's is a 0 281 002 177 where 177 kilopascals = 25.7 psi this one is 0 281 002 399 where 399 kilopascals = 57.87 psi. This is what I'm correlating with.
And yes this is a lot more accurate than what we currently run.

Alright, I don't understand that. If the stock one is 25.7psi and this new B one is 57.87, that's A LOT of boost?







If you take those numbers and divide them by 14.7 you get 1.75 and 3.94. That would be the Bar calculation. So it's like the stock one isn't even a 2 bar. Now, if you add atmospheric pressure, then add 14.7 it would come out to be a 2.75 bar and the B sensor would be a crazy 4.94 bar!!








Am I correct, or do I just not understand this?


_Modified by nebulight at 5:44 PM 9-25-2003_


----------



## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

not too good with electronics, maybe this helps you guys








http://minimopar.net/perf/eepc-fuel-map.html


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

You are right. The numbers dont add up...


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

That's why I was saying we need to make SURE that this is 3 bar. There's no way this sensor is rated to almost 5 bar though. There is no reason for vw to put a part like this on the car.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Can someone look up the "Thrust sensor" and post a diagram of where it would be on the engine?


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Any ideas? Are we at the point where we need to get an entire test setup involved? If so, why are we putting so much effort for this, lets just go the route of the GM 3 bar map sensor for 50 bux.
I am up for giving nebulight some cash for this, with hopes that he will return the favor someday. About the harness needed, just tap into the wires. I wouldnt fork over 30 bux for a harness. Get some cable and run it out. Should only be buying the 3 bar sensor which should be around what 60 bux?
EDIT: Anyone check ebay, "buy one now" for 69 bux...


_Modified by new 337 at 3:58 PM 9-25-2003_


----------



## BatiGol (Apr 1, 2003)

*Re: (new 337)*

Boooooooooooooo 
Boooooooo
Censorship sucks


_Modified by BatiGol at 9:11 AM 9-26-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (BatiGol)*

2 on ebay for under 70, and one here for 57, brand new... http://www.carshopinc.com/prod...23131
C'mon peeps! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (roly)*

Even cheaper:
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/r...23861 
and the harness, which would be nice a clean







:
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/r...05891 
Again, I will try this and post the results, unfortunatly, I'm broke....paypal is [email protected]










_Modified by nebulight at 8:49 PM 9-25-2003_


----------



## exS4 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Is a PSC1-001 any good for bypassing the Limitations of the Stock Clamp Sensor?


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (exS4)*

isn't that more for fueling? I don't know much about it...so I can't say.


----------



## spl147 (Jan 30, 2002)

*Re: (exS4)*

i got a psc1-001 for sale...........


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Keep in mind that this is a thrust sensor and not your typical MAP. This sensor is probably designed to read a lot more than the MAP that is perhaps why it is more accurate.
I am trying to collect as much info as I can. Bosch is of no help they reference to application and not where it can be found on the car. For instance: Q: What part of the VW is the Thrust Sensor found? A: It is used to measure thrust. We go by application not where it's used on the automobile. R: Thanks for your help!








For this reason I'm trying to correlate the numbers in reference to the others found in the pdf's I come across. The best way is to test them.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Any news from the boys? On a side note, I sold a few things on eBay, so after bills this month, I will see if I can afford the GM sensor to try out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

I looked up the "d" part and it says it's a pressure sensor. Not a thrust like the "b". Can someone get some specs on this part?


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

They are most likly the same thing. Since the D is a Euro part, they most likly have a different naming setup. Just like that Touareg 12V flashlight...VW calls it an Electric Tourch


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

You think the d might mount the stock location since it's a pressure sensor though? And if it's the euro part I wonder if it has a higher bar rating?


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re:*

Don't know if this is old news... I learned that MTM uses a 3 bar sensor for their big HP aplications. Don't know any more that this...


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: (9VW23yrs)*

I can possibly order the 'D' Monday and see what that is all about. I already returned the 'B'.
Would MTM be happy to share there little secret on the MAP they use. I know that they have some high HP VW's so I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Don R)*

Able to get info on the D?
Still think the GM one is an easier solution.....


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (new 337)*

ok...MY 20th A.E. came with the "B" map on it........

Now explain that one!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_ok...MY 20th A.E. came with the "B" map on it........

Now explain that one!























HUH??? Can you post a pic of it? That makes no sense. The "B" supposedly isn't even a map?


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I was just talking to him about this. He's putting the FMIC from his Jetta on the 20th and bung and sensor on the 20th are the B version.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

this is the map that came in my 20th AE.... I am using don r pics because they are exactly the same as the one in my car....
































Now can anyone explain this to me? .......... Very weird indeed.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*

Ok, well that definitely means that the "B" is NOT a 3 bar. That's why I'm saying we need to do our research before just ordering. Are you sure the part #'s are EXACTLY the same? They all look similar in appearance but I just want to be SURE. Don't think I won't be checking this on my friends 20th either!


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Ok, well that definitely means that the "B" is NOT a 3 bar. That's why I'm saying we need to do our research before just ordering. Are you sure the part #'s are EXACTLY the same? They all look similar in appearance but I just want to be SURE. Don't think I won't be checking this on my friends 20th either!









yep..It is the one in the pic above. Trust me. Sme part number. My 20th also has a smaller intercooler than other 1.8t I have seen.














I think that the part could be a 3 bar or above because of the Bosch part number. I will keep everyone updated on what happens. I have a few things I can test.


----------



## wsaenotsock (Sep 17, 2001)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
My 20th also has a smaller intercooler than other 1.8t I have seen.

















WTF!







Oh well that should be replaced soon.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (wsaenotsock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wsaenotsock* »_
WTF!







Oh well that should be replaced soon.









already replaced ................ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*

Wow, look at that...The parts guy is going to get a beating. It seems he doesn't know what he is doing when referencing parts.
Perhaps the 20th Ed have a slightly different setup...


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

http://www.exist.ru which is a pseudoETKA lists 038906051 as a thrust sensor


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Wow, look at that...The parts guy is going to get a beating. It seems he doesn't know what he is doing when referencing parts.
Perhaps the 20th Ed have a slightly different setup...









definately different. I am going to pull the "standard" Map out of my jetta and stick it on the 20th to see what difference if any it will make. But first I am going to have to make the "B" sensor work to make sure the FMIC is all good. Then switch in the "standard" sensor from the Jetta. 
I will post up some results after I give it a shot. Might be a few days....but it will be a good test. Too bad I got to pull the bumpers to make it all happen ...


----------



## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Perhaps the 20th Ed have a slightly different setup...









I doubt it. If there are any sort of major changes, VW would have gone with a new engine code.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (mj6234)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mj6234* »_
I doubt it. If there are any sort of major changes, VW would have gone with a new engine code. 


Map sensor would work with the ECU code, not the engine code. So they might not change the engine code.....just the ECU code.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*

Yeah, but even chipped 20th's have problems going into limp. I can't see them switching from a 2.5 bar map to a 3 bar. VW has no reason too allow the car to see 2 bar of boost before going into limp. I really don't think we should even bother with these OEM maps and just find where to find the Bosch Motorsport 3 bar maps and if you want a stock look, buy the plug and switch the pins or just go with the GM map as stated.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Yeah, but even chipped 20th's have problems going into limp. 

Well Limp is caused by the ECU not the sensor. SO it dont matter what sensor you have. It all has to do with programming.

_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_I can't see them switching from a 2.5 bar map to a 3 bar. VW has no reason too allow the car to see 2 bar of boost before going into limp. I really don't think we should even bother with these OEM maps and just find where to find the Bosch Motorsport 3 bar maps and if you want a stock look, buy the plug and switch the pins or just go with the GM map as stated.

Maybe my car is a freak. Or maybe they are giving it more over run potential.


----------



## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
Map sensor would work with the ECU code, not the engine code. So they might not change the engine code.....just the ECU code.

Maybe, but look at the difference between the AWW and AWP. Pretty much all they changed was the ECU code and we got a new engine code for that. I guess you could log MAP sensor voltage and compare to what was already posted to similar logs on here.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: (mj6234)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mj6234* »_
Maybe, but look at the difference between the AWW and AWP. Pretty much all they changed was the ECU code and we got a new engine code for that. 








They did change one aspect of the engine for that switch, compression ratio. So no dice there. Also, drm916 has a different style intake temp sensor on his 20th.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_







They did change one aspect of the engine for that switch, compression ratio. So no dice there. Also, drm916 has a different style intake temp sensor on his 20th.









I have a feeling that once I dig into this car deeper .... I am going to start finding a few sensors that are different.














I will keep ya posted


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*

Jon, you can make it spike w/mbc and see if vag com will read above 2540mb.
My other question is if the sensor has 4 connector tabs or 3.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (9VW23yrs)*

The sensor has 4 connector tabs. But only 3 of them are used by the receiving harness.
I was thinking of testing to see if the 4th terminal was used for temp. 
I will try the manual boost controller theory. But I will need to get chipped first.


----------



## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_







They did change one aspect of the engine for that switch, compression ratio. So no dice there. Also, drm916 has a different style intake temp sensor on his 20th.









Yeah, forgot about that one.







So do you think the components are the same as the 2003 model? I would think they would be the same between the 20th and the 2003 1.8Ts. I have heard of people swapping the LP (2003) AWP ECM into the 2002 models (HF) after getting the 16985 code, so that would point to the engines being the same mechanically.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*

If in fact this is a 3 bar sensor, then that would be good news for us. But then that would mean bad news for you, since your ECU has the values that are adjusted for the different voltage. I bet it is not a 3 bar tho. I bet this is just the only current model release of this style bosch sensor, things get outdated and you have to buy the current release, especially for production.
Yeah, throw that map sensor in your other hot rod and see if the boost reading from block 115 is still close...
Also, I'll say it again, a GM 3bar map sensor or even bosch 3 bar map sensor would put this portion to rest. We dont have to do all of this testing just to see if it is, and it is only 55 bux for one of those. Just need a FMIC and get a bung installed, easy...


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_ Just need a FMIC and get a bung installed, easy...

he said BUNG............


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: (drm916)*

I still don't see this being a 3 bar map. I guess the only way we'll get some specs on these is to bench test them as stated before. If someone has a stock smic off there car you could use that. Cap one side and use a cap with a pump attached to the other. Hook up your ground, power and test the output signal as pressure is applied. More work than what I wanted but it's the only way we'll be sure. Anybody with a fmic car to volunteer? Maybe someone local with a 20th would be willing to donate their services in lending their map for a few for that person to test it? What about you Dizzy since you know this guy with the 20th? Do you know anybody with a side mount off their car?


----------



## KICKINGTI (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

give me a couple days, and i will buy this 3 bar map, from ebay. I have a an old atp fmic with the flange so i dont think i have to do that set up like nebulight did. Tell me what to do and i will do it. I have a 2000 gti, with a ko3, fmic, revo 4bar, and a bunch of other ****, but thats the most important stuff


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: (KICKINGTI)*

Thanks for stepping up to the plate. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Unfortunately, if we get a 3 bar map sensor, there isnt much more to test out. For you, you would have to go to a larger maf housing, install larger injectors, and install a hi flow fuel pump, and possibly run 100 octane for safety's sake.
The reason is because timing/fueling will be scaled down due to the incorrect reading, so you need larger injectors and fuel pump to compensate. This needs to be done all together.
We are close people... nebulight, c'mon man! 55 bux!!!!!!


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: (new 337)*

I'm game to try out the GM sensor. I already have the injectors and MAF housing. I'm at school right now, I'll get back to you guys when I get home.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (nebulight)*

Sorry to jump subjects on you guys, but ive been giving the whole MAP/MAF some thought. And I wanted to bounce some things off you guys

Lets say you used a 3 bar sensor and scaled back the readings so 2bar was only say (2*5/3)) = 3.33 volts. Then the 1 bar voltage (atmospheric) would only be 1.66 volts. originally 1.66 volts was (1.66/5)*2.5 = 0.83 bar. the car would believe that you were in vacuum when you are at light throttle cruising. This should cause some problems with fueling, and worse so when you are actually pulling a vacuum. There must be something more to this setup. When changing to a 3 bar sensor on a mazda rx7 you have to adjust the "gain" on the apexi computer. What this does is change the slope of the voltage vs Pressure input rather than reduce it by x volts across the whole range. I think that the simple voltage decreasing circuit we are looking at is inadequate to properly condition the voltage to the ecu. The mazda guys use a remote mounted Gm 3 bar sensor BTW here is the part # info (THe part number for the three bar is 12223861 and the connector is 12085502. These are the new part numbers as the old ones have been updated.)
This brings me back to the whole question of how the car uses a map/maf. On our cars the map is located before the throttle body in the IC end tank. It seems very strange as the throttle will cause a lower pressure in the manifold in cases other than nearly WOT. Most cars with a speed density (map) based system will measure the actual manifold pressure. Assuming that the germans are aware of this, Its possible that they do not use the MAP to control fueling unless there is positive pressure. We may be running based off of the MAF untill we reach a certain pressure. By conditioning the signal from the MAP to read lower pressure all the time it may play with this transition point, and make the scaling of the MAF signal as, if not more important to maintain drivability
Thoughts?
edit. BTW New 337, the timing values will be scaled *UP* as the car will believe that the boost levels are lower. Even more reason to approach this carefully. May even be a good reason to use the stock timing curve, or a more mild 91 octane chip on say 93 oct. 



_Modified by enginerd at 9:18 PM 9-30-2003_


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Most cars with a speed density (map) based system will measure the actual manifold pressure. Assuming that the germans are aware of this, Its possible that they do not use the MAP to control fueling unless there is positive pressure. We may be running based off of the MAF untill we reach a certain pressure.
 
I've thought this for a while. The ECU just reads off the MAP for boost regulation purposes, not fueling. Hence it's non optimized location. The MAF signal is used more for fueling in low and part throttle situations and comparing MAF readings with MAP readings along with wastegate duty cycle to determine when you are trying to cheat the system. Almost forgot the torque request/load system. The MAF is used there too.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

Well that's why the maf and injectors must be proportioned correctly. We're not talking about just slapping on a 3 bar map sensor here. Definitely something to keep an eye on when tuning this setup though.


----------



## exS4 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I think that most of us here understand that you can't simply raise the boost, but that You also need to raise the fuel availability etc. That there needs to be a comprehensive approach. Or something!


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: (exS4)*

enginerd, vdubbindizzy, thanks for the input, but lets step back for 1 second.
How many of you folks claim to get more timing when pulling the screens out of the maf? Upgrading to a larger maf housing? Oh, everyone does. So, are we saying the maf controls fuel, or timing, or both? Then, what does the map control?
I have said numerous times, a FMIC kit and 100 octane fuel should be used when doing this setup. It also has been said that we are going to scale everything, maf, map, and injectors. Fueling should not be an issue.
enginerd, about reading the current atmospheric pressure when idling, that is not a problem. As said before, it would be close to like living in Denver. But, I think we all can agree that at idle, it is using the maf sensor for control, since there is no boost.
I am confident this will work. Bringing down to stock timing may be a great idea, if someone has revo that is willing to try this out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Eric_RS (Jul 16, 2002)

*Boost curve*

The problem I see with this MAP scaling is that while we can run 1.5 bar
and the ecu sees 1 bar the shape of the curve can not be changed.
So with a big turbo we still have the boost curve of the chip that tapers
down after the torque peak towards redline. So we can not use the
new turbo fully and have big hp at high rpm.
Do you all agree with this? We can only shift the curve up by some fixed
amount equal at all rpm.
/Eric


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## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

*Re: Boost curve (Eric_RS)*

the viggen MAP is a 3bar and is 0-5v......just adding another option since i read you guys were looking for 3bar sensors..
adapter is needed to bolt up for it also, i do not have pics so dont ask


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

We talked about this stuff way back on page 9. My conclusion was the ecu will go off the maf sensor for fueling if it's pluged in. Using speed-density wouldn't make any sence the way our engines sensors are configured. I believe the map sensor is primarily for feedback controll of boost and also for ignition timing. Probably has nothing or little to do with fuel, IMO.
Here it is from page 9: 
_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_ 
My guess is that if the maf is there it's going to use it, regardless of where in the rev range, how much boost, etc. I've often thought that tossing the maf and scaling the map might work, but I really think keeping the maf in there will end up giving you a smoother and better running car. The problem with a speed-density based system is the ecu has to calculate how much air is going into the engine to determine fueling. The boost, rpm and IAT can all be measured obviously by their respective sensors, the unknown in determining flow however is VE, which of course will vary depending on rpm. Also, when you start changing things like turbos, exhaust, etc, the VE of the engine can change quite a bit. So even if it does have stored maps of VE as a function of rpm, that's all going to be off on a modified engine. Much better IMO to just measure air flow with a maf, albiet maybe scaled air flow via larger maf housing and injectors.


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (Eric_RS)*

That is the way I see it too. We are thinking a 3 bar would be a nice step, since it should read about 83% of actual, and things should work out well. That means with a boost request of 15psi at redline, what my revo has, I can boost about 18psi and be reading the same thing. So, 18-19psi to redline is what most APR SIII setups run, and you can get a rough estimate on power using that (about 260whp).
Now, usually your ECU will allow you to boost around 2 or so more psi then requested for an extended period of time, and that moves you up to now to about 21psi, before the ECU decides you are boosting too much. 21psi to redline, that is fine for me. I would be content with 19 as well.
If you go back a few pages, we talked about even using a 3.5bar map sensor. Now, this would scale the map about 70%, thus with a request of 15psi, you would be able to go to about 21-22 psi to be reading that. And for those with big turbos and huge goals, this may be a solution for them. The reason we talked about 3.5 bar map sensors is because that 70% scaling is about what the upgrade from a 2.5" maf to a 3" maf is, so when you scale the injectors up, it works out everything is scaled very close to each other.
I will say it again, need a good FMIC and good octane to test this out first, and see how much (if any) timing is advanced.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (Eric_RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Eric_RS* »_We can only shift the curve up by some fixed
amount equal at all rpm.
/Eric

False. If it is scaled, then it is not fixed. It isnt offset a couple psi, it is scaled. Which means they start at the same point, end at different points, slope is different. So the gap increases as boost increases. See this graph to get the visual.








See how the delta gets larger as boost increases? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Eric_RS (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (new 337)*

Right, should have said a fixed percentage. But thas does not help your
argument. If 1.3 bar scales to 1 bar then at 6k rpm if the chip requests
0.6 bar you only get 0.6*1.3=0.78 bar.


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (Eric_RS)*

Uhhhh, look at the graph above. I'm not sure about your car, but mine is requesting about 10 psi @ 6000 rpm. If you look at the graph, you can see the 3 bar map would produce the same voltage at ~ 15 psi as the 2.5 bar at 10 psi. I'll take a 5 psi increase gladly (assuming I have a bigger turbo some day). Anyway, that's not the end of the story, your ecu will not immediately put you in limp mode the instant you go a little over requested boost. In fact, it will probably let you get away with, say 14.5 or so psi (assuming its chipped) at 6k rpm. So in that case, if the ecu thinks your running 14.5 psi @ 6k rpm with the 3 bar map, you're actually running ~ 20 psi. How much boost do you want?


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (MEDoc)*

I love brown, 380cc injectors:








and the stuff I already had:
S4 MAF Housing:








Diodes:


















_Modified by nebulight at 7:25 PM 10-1-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (nebulight)*

Siemens Deka 36lb injectors?
Nice, looks like you are very close. Happy tuning. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Boost curve (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
False. If it is scaled, then it is not fixed. It isnt offset a couple psi, it is scaled. Which means they start at the same point, end at different points, slope is different. So the gap increases as boost increases. See this graph to get the visual.








See how the delta gets larger as boost increases? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


NEW 337, thats exactly what i was talking about. If you look lower on the plot you can see the error at 0 psi. the voltage is more like -3 psi. I like your analogy about being in denver, however In this case its like being in florida, and your car thinks its in denver (lean). 
Matching the injectors exactly to the % error would correct this problem, however an exact match is never going to happen. Some adjustment must be made. A linear scale adjustment of the voltage would screw up the curve by shifting its offset. An electrical circuit that adjusted the voltage by a % of the signal would be more appropriate. I believe this is the principle by which "air flow" controllers by apexi, and greddy condition maf, or map signals on most of the japanese custom setups. Only these setups have many sections that you can adjust rather than a certain % for the whole curve. 
In regards to the timing being too high, has anyone thought about playing with the air intake temp sensor to make it believe the charge air is hotter? Ths would bring in the retard that you want. This would also alter the fuel curve, which then needs to be readjusted by the fueling curcuitry. Its a nasty circle of interaction with this thing. 
In the end, stand alone or a complete kit just starts looking better and better. No wonder greddy ran for the hills with their turbo setup. I bet they had more than one of their e-manage setups running on that thing to cheat the germans


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (enginerd)*

Yeah, I was saying earlier that we could play around with the air temp sensor to trick the ecu for the timing. As far as having to have a PERFECT match, I don't think it has to be EXACT. The error that we are talking about here is at the vacuum/boost crossover point. The margin of error isn't that large and the O2's should make up for the correction at idle. I really don't see this being a problem. If nobody has had problems with the diodes thus far, I don't see how this could be anything but BETTER. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: Boost curve (nebulight)*

Which voltage is that zener?


_Modified by 20V1.8Tnut at 10:34 AM 10-2-2003_


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I agree with you. Yes, it's not going to be perfect, but it is a closed loop system (at least at < WOT). The O2 sensor/fuel trim values should make the necessary corrections. And again, I believe fueling is more off the maf than the map, so this ofset at idle may be a moot point. Anyway, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and







to everyone involved in this thread, I really think we're getting somewhere.


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: Boost curve (20V1.8Tnut)*

I was just thinking about this and there is no possible way that our cars use the MAP sensor in idle conditions. Due to the placement of the MAP, the only time it would read any real amount below 1 bar actual would be at a decent height above sea level. 
sooooo... im willing to bet that the ECU completely ignores the MAP as far as fueling and timing is concerned until it actually reads above 1bar actual (0 bar boost) and until that point (for cruising, idle, accel in vacuum, and decel) it relies completely on the MAF, o2, and knock sensors.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Boost curve (XSiVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XSiVE* »_I was just thinking about this and there is no possible way that our cars use the MAP sensor in idle conditions. Due to the placement of the MAP, the only time it would read any real amount below 1 bar actual would be at a decent height above sea level. 
sooooo... im willing to bet that the ECU completely ignores the MAP as far as fueling and timing is concerned until it actually reads above 1bar actual (0 bar boost) and until that point (for cruising, idle, accel in vacuum, and decel) it relies completely on the MAF, o2, and knock sensors.

I don't think that is true. There was a thread not to long ago about unplugging the MAP. I was misfiring like crazy at idle!! I drove about 1/4 mile, then I plugged it back in. I couldn't boost more than 7 psi, and the car was jerking like crazy. I think I might just stick with a diode for now, and when more money rolls in, I'll try the GM sensor. And if that doesn't work smoothly (I don't think I'll be able to hold an idle), I'll just sell it on eBay.
That diode in the picture is 4.3 volts, because that was the bag I had in front of me. I also bought a few 4.7. 4.3 might act as a race program with 100 octane and have more timing, in theory (what the hell, these diodes are like 20 cents).


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: Boost curve (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_
I don't think that is true. There was a thread not to long ago about unplugging the MAP. I was misfiring like crazy at idle!! I drove about 1/4 mile, then I plugged it back in. I couldn't boost more than 7 psi, and the car was jerking like crazy. 

Wow about the misfires at idle.. that is kind of crazy, maybe it uses the map to gauge the air density then, but as for vacuum, it will absolutely never read vacuum in the position it is in. 
yeah i can see the only 7psi and bucking like crazy happening because you were pushing boost into the motor and not compensating for it with fuel since the ecu didnt realize you were actually in boost.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

I'm begining to beleive that the MAP is solely for pressure limit only. Depending on the code the ECU will read the pressure as just a value where in stock 7.5 psi = 5v and chipped 20 psi = 5V. 
The MAF on the other hand is solely for Air/Fuel.
Install a diode so it will never reach 4.7V and the MAF + O2 sensor will take care of the rest.
Does this make sense?....


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## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (Don R)*

This is http://search.barnesandnoble.c...itm=5 a very good reference book.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_I'm begining to beleive that the MAP is solely for pressure limit only. Depending on the code the ECU will read the pressure as just a value where in stock 7.5 psi = 5v and chipped 20 psi = 5V. 
The MAF on the other hand is solely for Air/Fuel.
Install a diode so it will never reach 4.7V and the MAF + O2 sensor will take care of the rest.
Does this make sense?....

exactly what Dizzy and I are saying.


----------



## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

HI everyone....I havent read page 5-13
but if you are still looking for a 3 bar bosch sensor the part number is
Bosch 0.273.003.211 its a european part
its not a direct bolt on. I have the presure vs voltage curve at home if anyone wants to see it. 
I have heard different things about how this is set up....I dont think it has terminated ends for wires so it will involve some sodering. 


_Modified by nerdhotrod at 7:12 PM 10-2-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

I have to somewhat disagree. I think the map is used for timing, as I specifically remember nerdhotrod and I believe 1.8t3t04e saying that they had to find the right diode that minimized timing retards, and 100 octane specific diodes. Just a guess, dont know for sure.
If the map is only used as a switch to kill power when the map is maximized, just sounds too easy to me. Maybe at WOT... but I doubt it.
All just assumptions! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
exactly what Dizzy and I are saying. 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nerdhotrod)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nerdhotrod* »_HI everyone....I havent read page 5-13
but if you are still looking for a 3 bar bosch sensor the part number is
Bosch 0.273.003.211 its a european part
its not a direct bolt on. I have the presure vs voltage curve at home if anyone wants to see it. 
I have heard different things about how this is set up....I dont think it has terminated ends for wires so it will involve some sodering. 

_Modified by nerdhotrod at 7:12 PM 10-2-2003_

Can you post a the pressure vs. voltage as compared to stock? Also, do you have a pic of the sensor?


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

Has anybody viewed this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1010287


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Yes, and even nebulight commented on the last page saying he unplugged his and his car ran like poo poo. So, maybe it is a difference in ECU, but our cars dont run right without the map plugged in. Many have tried it, as you can see. Only one guy seems to be lucky, so something else is going on there.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

If you do this you are just asking for a scattered motor. Unplugging the map means virtually NO fueling under boost!!! I'd like to see someone do this and post the a/f chart. I'm sure it would be INSANELY lean.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_If you do this you are just asking for a scattered motor. Unplugging the map means virtually NO fueling under boost!!! I'd like to see someone do this and post the a/f chart. I'm sure it would be INSANELY lean.

it would probably run off the Maf and O2 sensors


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

I don't see how that alone would fuel it sufficiently though.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Yeah but what does pressure have to do with fueling?...Its the amount of air to fuel ratio that counts. See MAF will work together with the 02 b/c the MAF will read how much flow taken in and the O2 will measure what is the A/F ratio coming out. The amount air taken in = amount of air taken out --> exhaust.
A good example is when I recently installed the 3" MAF housing. I was still boosting 18 psi but the airflow reading was decreased and so I began to lean out. If the MAP had any influence in fueling it would have overided the MAF readings and go with boost.
And so I ask again, what does pressure have to do with fueling?...Correct me if I'm wrong.


_Modified by Don R at 9:37 PM 10-2-2003_


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Yeah but what does pressure have to do with fueling?...Its the amount of air to fuel ratio that counts. See MAF will work together with the 02 b/c the MAF will read how much flow taken in and the O2 will measure what is the A/F ratio coming out. The amount air taken in = amount of air taken out --> exhaust. 


Exactly....


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_
A good example is when I recently installed the 3" MAF housing. I was still boosting 18 psi but the airflow reading was decreased and so I began to lean out. If the MAP had any influence in fueling it would have overided the MAF readings and go with boost.
And so I ask again, what does pressure have to do with fueling?...Correct me if I'm wrong.

_Modified by Don R at 9:37 PM 10-2-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

So, are we changing what we had said before then? I thought we concluded that the MAF basically adjusted fuel while under vacuum and the MAP takes over under boost?


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_So, are we changing what we had said before then? I thought we concluded that the MAF basically adjusted fuel while under vacuum and the MAP takes over under boost?

I think the Maf and o2 sensors are always used for fuel and the map determines if we are overboosting. Also the possibility exists that when at WOT the car runs off predetermined fuel maps (used in conjunction with long term feul trim).


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

dont be morons. you need a MAP to run boost. without it you will kill the motor. When nebulite said his motor was bucking.. that was the misfires from it running too lean.
the ECU can only compensate a small amount with the MAF and o2 sensors, like 15%-20% at full trim learned values.. so if you did take out your map you would have to run with it off for quite some time before your ecu even began to adapt the o2 and MAF readings.
the maf can read how much air is going into the turbo but it cant do it all that accurately once you really start to push boost. this is why most guys with turbos on stock naturally aspirated cars go with some kind of fueling system that has a MAP sensor, such as an extra injector controler, or a standalone system.
*KEEP YOUR MAP AND KEEP YOUR PISTONS*


_Modified by XSiVE at 5:08 PM 10-2-2003_


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
Also the possibility exists that when at WOT the car runs off predetermined fuel maps (used in conjunction with long term feul trim).

Agreed. And the MAP would be in the manifold if it was used for fueling.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

We are thinking too much about this and no doing anything about it. If I had a Vag-Com to check out a few things, I would put my diode in tonight.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
I think the Maf and o2 sensors are always used for fuel and the map determines if we are overboosting. Also the possibility exists that when at WOT the car runs off predetermined fuel maps (used in conjunction with long term feul trim).

Exactly, that is why when the MAF is unplugged the ECU goes to a default fuel map, thus allowing the car to run rich. The MAP is a switch for over boosting; this is why it can be placed anywhere between the compressor & mani.
Pressure = force * cross-sectional area ---> Pounds per Square Inch. You can have 50 psi and only 12 CFM.


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_
Agreed. And the MAP would be in the manifold if it was used for fueling. 

the map IS used for fueling.. if you dont believe me go unplug it and see for yourself.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (XSiVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XSiVE* »_
the map IS used for fueling.. if you dont believe me go unplug it and see for yourself.

if it is unpluged then the car will run like crap because the ecu knows it is unplugged. 
We are not arguing the fact that the car runs like crap without it. But just because it runs like crap does not mean that it is solely used for fueling.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (drm916)*

If A = B and B = C, A has to equal C, right?


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

If we dont get a larger map sensor good luck boosting more then requested then. Only 15psi...
Are we going in circles?
If the map is so insignificant, why do people play with and try to find the BEST diode, trying multiple ones with multiple results? I think the map is used for timing tables, the maf for fuel.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Example: K03 @ 20 psi is not = to GT30R @ 20 psi why?...B/c the CFM (Flow) in the GT30R is a lot more --> more CFM more fuel.


_Modified by Don R at 10:43 PM 10-2-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

That doesnt answer the question at all.
If people change the diodes from one voltage to another, they get different results on the dyno. That says the map isnt there as a switch to turn off the boost if the limit is exceeded, it says it is used as an input for fueling/timing.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Timing would be the best answer to this...That I can agree with.


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_That doesnt answer the question at all.
If people change the diodes from one voltage to another, they get different results on the dyno. That says the map isnt there as a switch to turn off the boost if the limit is exceeded, it says it is used as an input for fueling/timing.

THANK YOU. someone with an actual sense of what they are doing. 
as for the rest of you.. remember that whole thing about our MAFs being maxed out once the turbo hit a certain PSI? you think the motor just dumps all the fuel it can? NO. It relies on the MAP for boost values so it can adjust fueling and timing.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_Timing would be the best answer to this...That I can agree with.

Agreed. This is why we've been saying you need a good IC and good fuel to start playing with this stuff. But we don't have a difinitive way nailed down to scale or clamp the MAP readings. So like someone said, we are going in circles.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (XSiVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XSiVE* »_
THANK YOU. someone with an actual sense of what they are doing. 
as for the rest of you.. remember that whole thing about our MAFs being maxed out once the turbo hit a certain PSI? you think the motor just dumps all the fuel it can? NO. It relies on the MAP for boost values so it can adjust fueling and timing.

EXACTLY. If you want proof that the map does affect fueling, just unplug it and log your A/F. IF you don't fry your motor in the process.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

OK, for clarity, lets clean up this past page or two.

MAP sensor (we the people believe) effects timing. (in general)
MAF sensor effects fueling. (in general)
Both work together on both vacuum as well as boost conditions.
Both work somewhat together, as MEDoc suggested as far as a TPS and boost based system.
The only solution to scale the map sensor readings is by a voltage divider circuitry, or by using a 3 bar map sensor or higher. The diode does not scale, it clamps.
Adjusting fuel injectors at the same rate as increasing your maf cross-sectional area should yield the same A/F ratio, but timing will be advanced due to lower air mass measured.
Increasing to a 3 bar map sensor will scale the values to read about 83% of actual, so timing will be advanced since it is seeing less boost.
Therefore, since the 2 components (maf and map) will be reading less amount of air, timing will be advanced significantly. A FMIC and 100 octane should be used for testing, and hopefully someone with a revo sps3 so they can turn the timing down to say stock levels to avoid riding the knock sensors.
Everyone happy now?

















Editted: Better now? Maybe a little redundant over and over again....










_Modified by new 337 at 3:13 PM 10-2-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

Sounds good to me. I'm staying on the map sensor affects fueling bandwagon though.


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

Here's what I've been thinking about all this. The map sensor I believe is there not only to measure boost, but also atmospheric pressure (hence its location). The maf sensor really only measures _velocity_, so the ecu has to convert this to mass air flow for it to be useful. The velocity times the cross sectional area of the maf housing at the sensor will give you volumetric flow, but you have to multiply by the air density to get mass flow. (assuming ideal gas law) the density of air is proportional to its absolute pressure and inveresly proportional to its absolute temperature. Since the map sensor is proximal to the throttle plate the pressure at that point under idle is pretty close to atmospheric, and I have observed this to be the case on my car. So the map is important for helping to determine fueling by correcting for atmospheric conditions, elevation, etc. With the 3 bar map in there it would read ~16% lower atmospheric pressure and theoretically reduce fueling by that much too (although O2 sensors and fuel trim will probably try to correct it). The question is once you get into boost how is it determining maf? My guess is that it uses the atmospheric air pressure measured at idle as a reference value for calculating maf once youre into boost, and at that point fueling is only a function maf and the map is used for control of the waste gate and partial control of ignition angle. 
So the deal is that yes, putting in a higher pressure map sensor most likely will make it run leaner since it is going to think atmospheric pressure is low and determine air density based on that. Bottom line is it may be necessary to bump up fuel flow by the same % that the map signal is reduced. Going from a 2.5 to a 3 bar map would reduce the signal by ~ 16% and therefore you would need to increase fueling by the same amount with either bigger injectors or higher fuel pressure. Anyway, someone needs to test all this, I'm too busy!


----------



## Boredom (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
EXACTLY. If you want proof that the map does affect fueling, just unplug it and log your A/F. IF you don't fry your motor in the process.









Wow, I guess all the nDBW longitudinal 1.8T guys are in trouble then. The thousands that were sold between 1996-1999 should be recalled and a map sensor added eh? Lord help them, the maf sensor and 02 sensors can't possibly compensate for the lack of a map sensor. Guess I'll go check the archives, surely there is documented proof of grenaded motors from Audi's flawed design.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

* Diode Prototype Number 1: * 








I will also put mail ends on the wires for the MAP sensor, that way I can just plug the diode in, and switch it out for different voltage (more timing AKA 100 Octane Race Program







) or no diode at all.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (nebulight)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Boredom)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boredom* »_
Wow, I guess all the nDBW longitudinal 1.8T guys are in trouble then. The thousands that were sold between 1996-1999 should be recalled and a map sensor added eh? Lord help them, the maf sensor and 02 sensors can't possibly compensate for the lack of a map sensor. Guess I'll go check the archives, surely there is documented proof of grenaded motors from Audi's flawed design.

Ummmmm....the ecu is what stores the maps. The older 1.8t's without map sensors have a completely different fuel mapping and do not require a map.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Boredom)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boredom* »_
Wow, I guess all the nDBW longitudinal 1.8T guys are in trouble then. The thousands that were sold between 1996-1999 should be recalled and a map sensor added eh? Lord help them, the maf sensor and 02 sensors can't possibly compensate for the lack of a map sensor. Guess I'll go check the archives, surely there is documented proof of grenaded motors from Audi's flawed design.

If you arent going to add, dont comment. This is a worthless post. Cars built without map sensors are obviously adressing fueling/timing using different methods, but go on and make your point....








Nebulight-
Looks like you got some fun stuff ahead of you. Are you gonna be using a vag as well as a dyno when doing your testing? Love to see how timing and fueling (A/F) is going to be effected when using this. Good luck! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

What sensors would a TecII or III work with our application?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

They usually supply new map sensors with stand alone. Most that I have seen either have specific 3 bar map sensors or they use GM or Bosch.


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## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_What sensors would a TecII or III work with our application?

I dont know about the electromotive tec systems, but the SDS standalone system uses a crank position sensor, a map(in the manifold), a throttle position sensor, and an o2 sensor.
edit: page 15 pwned


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## Boredom (Mar 2, 2003)

_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
This is a worthless post. 


Worthless, maybe. Sarcastic, yes.








I've yet to see any evidence that the map is directly involved with fueling on ME7 cars. Timing may be affected by adding a zener to the map but as long as your not at the injectors limit, fueling shouldn't be a problem. I agree with you regarding running 100 octane while testing, better safe than sorry.
If anyone has Bosch Motronic documentation showing the fueling/map relationship, please post it. Otherwise, I'm with drm916 and vdubndizzy on this one.


_Modified by Boredom at 8:58 PM 10-2-2003_


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (Boredom)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boredom* »_If anyone has Bosch Motronic documentation showing the fueling/map relationship, please post it. Otherwise, I'm with drm916 and vdubndizzy on this one.


Which is what specifically? I think we all are agreeing that the map does have an effect on timing. There is some discussion about fueling as well, but that seems to be more on the line of hunches, and maybe it just needs to be electrically plugged in.
Maf - fuel
Map - timing
With some interdependencies if they are both reading something that "makes sense" and can happen.
Edit:
Sorry for not picking up on the sarcasm. Fooled me.


----------



## Boredom (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
Which is what specifically? I think we all are agreeing that the map does have an effect on timing. There is some discussion about fueling as well, but that seems to be more on the line of hunches, and maybe it just needs to be electrically plugged in.
Maf - fuel
Map - timing
With some interdependencies if they are both reading something that "makes sense" and can happen.


Yeah, I think everyone agrees that the map has an effect on timing. But the maf also does. Correct me if I'm wrong but when the maf is unplugged, the ecu resorts to base timing maps and can't adjust. Testing on my car shows this but I'd be interested in seeing others results. So basically...
Maf - fuel/timing
Map - boost/timing
Anyway, it's awesome to see people experimenting with this.
















_Quote »_
Edit:
Sorry for not picking up on the sarcasm. Fooled me.









Sorry about the previous post. It could easily be taken the wrong way and I shouldn't have posted it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Boredom)*

Well then. How bout one of you guys unplug your map and turn it up to about 25psi and tell us how it runs afterward.


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## Boredom (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Well then. How bout one of you guys unplug your map and turn it up to about 25psi and tell us how it runs afterward.









Been there, done that. It doesn't run worth a damn. Constant throttle cutting but no misfires. I'll be clamping mine within the next week. I don't believe fueling is an issue but as a precaution I'll be slowly turning up my profec and watching the pre-cat 02 voltages.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Boredom)*

How much boost are you seeing right now before hitting limp with your stage 3? Why would you rather clamp it than try out a 3 bar? That's what I'm really not understanding.


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (Boredom)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boredom* »_Constant throttle cutting but no misfires. 

thats because you dont have enough fuel for the boost your putting in there. 
the whole "has to be electrically hooked up" is crap. The ECU isnt smart enough to know if the MAP is hooked up or not, it just knows that it receives a voltage from the MAP and adjusts fuel and timing curves to match. if it doesnt have a signal, its not that it "knows the MAP is missing", it just can not adjust fuel and timing maps without a MAP voltage input and ends up trying to rely on the maf / o2. no fuel or too much timing = bucking. 
Go put your car on the dyno with a wideband o2 sensor hooked up, leave the map hooked up and look at your A/F curve. disconnect the MAP and do the same. your a/f curve with the map will read probably 12.5:1 in a full boost situation, and without the map it will read somewheres around 14.5:1 which is very dangerous while boosting.


_Modified by XSiVE at 7:50 AM 10-3-2003_


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_How much boost are you seeing right now before hitting limp with your stage 3? Why would you rather clamp it than try out a 3 bar? That's what I'm really not understanding.

Well, for me it's like this:
3 Bar MAP with Harness - ~$75
Diode - $0.20
I'm going to try out the diode first for reasons listed above, and if that doesn't work too hot, I'll give the 3 Bar with a few tricks up the sleeve


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: (XSiVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XSiVE* »_the whole "has to be electrically hooked up" is crap. The ECU isnt smart enough to know if the MAP is hooked up or not, it just knows that it receives a voltage from the MAP and adjusts fuel and timing curves to match. if it doesnt have a signal, its not that it "knows the MAP is missing",

Actually, the ECU monitors the internal resistance and the plausible signal range of many sensors. So, the ECU may indeed tell you that the MAP isn't hooked up.


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (XSiVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XSiVE* »_
thats because you dont have enough fuel for the boost your putting in there. 
the whole "has to be electrically hooked up" is crap. The ECU isnt smart enough to know if the MAP is hooked up or not, it just knows that it receives a voltage from the MAP and adjusts fuel and timing curves to match. if it doesnt have a signal, its not that it "knows the MAP is missing", it just can not adjust fuel and timing maps without a MAP voltage input and ends up trying to rely on the maf / o2. no fuel or too much timing = bucking. 


So by your theory, the car won't run right without a proper MAP signal. Then how is 18t3/t4e or whatever his name is running so much boost on a stock ECU? He obviously has clamped or put a diode in his MAP. But he's not having timing issues? I think the intake temp sensor, the MAF, and the MAP all affect timing. We're not trying to eliminate the MAP, just find a way to alter it to our advantage. The MAP is involved in timing, but not fueling. Hell the requested load, ie TPS and rpm vs MAP is probably involved more in fueling than the MAP signal alone. We just want to know how to cheat the MAP so we can run big injectors and a larger MAF with a big honking turbo.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Well then. How bout one of you guys unplug your map and turn it up to about 25psi and tell us how it runs afterward.









actually I have dont that on my K04 car. I rode the knock sensors and the motor did not grenade.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Actually, the ECU monitors the internal resistance and the plausible signal range of many sensors. So, the ECU may indeed tell you that the MAP isn't hooked up.

Thank you. Exactly what I was going to say ...but you beat me to it.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_
So by your theory, the car won't run right without a proper MAP signal. Then how is 18t3/t4e or whatever his name is running so much boost on a stock ECU? He obviously has clamped or put a diode in his MAP. But he's not having timing issues? I think the intake temp sensor, the MAF, and the MAP all affect timing. We're not trying to eliminate the MAP, just find a way to alter it to our advantage. The MAP is involved in timing, but not fueling. Hell the requested load, ie TPS and rpm vs MAP is probably involved more in fueling than the MAP signal alone. We just want to know how to cheat the MAP so we can run big injectors and a larger MAF with a big honking turbo.









Ok i know it will run correctly without a PROPER signal, my argument was to those that posted ideas of eliminating the MAP. 
as for fueling, the MAP has to be involved in fueling. the ECU can NOT predict changes in the way the air comes out of the turbo such as heat, exact pressure, etc based on MAF signal alone. It can only detect how much air goes in. blah blah blah other 1.8ts had no MAP, but they have completely different fuel maps to compensate.
ask any real tuner what sensor they use on a forced induction engine to be sure fueling is correct according to boost and RPM and they will tell you they use a MAP.... or they just carbeurate the motor










_Modified by XSiVE at 10:20 AM 10-3-2003_


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (XSiVE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *XSiVE* »_
Ok i know it will run correctly without a PROPER signal, my argument was to those that posted ideas of eliminating the MAP. 
as for fueling, the MAP has to be involved in fueling. the MAF can NOT predict changes in the way the air comes out of the turbo such as heat, exact pressure, etc. It can only detect how much air goes in.
ask any real tuner what sensor they use on a forced induction engine to be sure fueling is correct according to boost and RPM and they will tell you they use a MAP. 

Maybe you are right. But we are experimenting with ideas. And most tuners do not use Maf along with Map. it is eaither one or the other.
I will agree that ME7 probably uses all sensors together to determine proper fuleing. However I believe that the Map has the least affect and would be the easiest to work around. This is obviously the case for guys such as 18t3/t4e.


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
Maybe you are right. But we are experimenting with ideas. And most tuners do not use Maf along with Map. it is eaither one or the other.
I will agree that ME7 probably uses all sensors together to determine proper fuleing. However I believe that the Map has the least affect and would be the easiest to work around. This is obviously the case for guys such as 18t3/t4e. 

yah. im sure it uses all of them together. It has to with how freakin complex these damn DBW cars are








An easy experiment to see if the map does actually have some control over fueling is to clamp the map at a lower voltage (somewhere around 7psi) then install a MBC to be sure you dont hit over like 12psi and graph your lambda versus boost with the vag com.
If my theory is correct your graph will show boost increading to 7psi and it will level off there because thats where you clamped the voltage.(even tho your gauge might read 12). As the boost rises to 7psi you should see the lambda read richer. Once the boost is at its 7psi plateau you would see the lambda fall into the lean because your ecu isnt cycling the injectors enough due what it thinks is lack of boost since you only allow it to see 7psi and there is actually 12psi going into the motor.
The knock sensor will kick in and pull back timing if it senses pre-detonation and since the boost levels arent all that different you shouldnt be in much if any danger at all.
Maybe Ill just have to do these low boost tests to either prove or disprove my theory once my gauges come in from 42 draft










_Modified by XSiVE at 10:37 AM 10-3-2003_


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: (XSiVE)*

I don't remember if I had already suggested this in this thread, but this book is a great read on the subject:








http://www.bentleypublishers.c...ect=5
Cheap too!


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*

for $10 you cant pass it up if you really want to know what sensors to fool with








http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...92022
Note the "Customers who bought this book also bought:" hehehe


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I don't remember if I had already suggested this in this thread, but this book is a great read on the subject:








http://www.bentleypublishers.c...ect=5
Cheap too!

I'm definitely going to scoop this. Without this, we're basically just rambling in circles with THEORIES and no hard evidence.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_
I'm definitely going to scoop this. Without this, we're basically just rambling in circles with THEORIES and no hard evidence.

But does it answer our questions?


----------



## nerdhotrod (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_ * Diode Prototype Number 1: * 








I will also put mail ends on the wires for the MAP sensor, that way I can just plug the diode in, and switch it out for different voltage (more timing AKA 100 Octane Race Program







) or no diode at all.

this works. it tired this on the dyno a while back. 4.7 was pump, 4.3 was race. I forget how many hp's is was good for but I did find 100 octan was bearly enough. 
I also have vag com logs of the difference. Im the middle of moving right now so I wont be able to post anything for about a week. 
make sure you have a way of adding a little more fuel when you do this.


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20V1.8Tnut* »_This is http://search.barnesandnoble.c...itm=5 a very good reference book.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
But does it answer our questions? 

Maybe not all of them but some of the more complex questions could be answered. It couldn't hurt. I'll be the first to say I'm totally new to this motronic system.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (nerdhotrod)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nerdhotrod* »_
this works. it tired this on the dyno a while back. 4.7 was pump, 4.3 was race. I forget how many hp's is was good for but I did find 100 octan was bearly enough. 
I also have vag com logs of the difference. Im the middle of moving right now so I wont be able to post anything for about a week. 
make sure you have a way of adding a little more fuel when you do this. 

Straight from the horses mouth. This guy right here that has done alot of testing with it, says exactly what most of us have been saying for quite some time: *MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A WAY OF ADDING A LITTLE MORE FUEL WHEN YOU DO THIS* I think that means that the map voltage affects fueling. And since he also said the lower voltage was a race program, then that also means that the Map effects timing. 1.8t3t04e I dont think he is sharing everything, I know he knows what he is doing and he has some little tricks.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

To compensate fuel in regards to the timing he has two extra injectors on the intake manifold mounted aft the throttle body that kick in at specific rpm which can be adjusted.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
Straight from the horses mouth. This guy right here that has done alot of testing with it, says exactly what most of us have been saying for quite some time: *MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A WAY OF ADDING A LITTLE MORE FUEL WHEN YOU DO THIS* I think that means that the map voltage affects fueling. And since he also said the lower voltage was a race program, then that also means that the Map effects timing. 1.8t3t04e I dont think he is sharing everything, I know he knows what he is doing and he has some little tricks.

well it of course will affect timing for sure. And you need more fuel with more timing. I believe you could clamp the map and use a second rising rate FPR to add more fuel uptop. somthing like the cartech... there are too many things to try and not enough time or money.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

I know...uprate the MAF housing, fuel pump, injectors, FPR, and add 2 extra injectors & a piggy-back for fueling and your done.


_Modified by Don R at 8:28 PM 10-3-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

Have you guys looked at the rising rate fpr's that PES sells? They're pretty nice. It works the same as an FMU but plugs into the stock fuel rail.


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

is there any way that we could possibly recode the ECU to accept more boost? I mean is that hard coded in the ECU somewhere that we could not get to it?
Tricking the ECU is one way to go, but couldn't you just update the ECU? That way we could add more fuel when neccessary and not when unneccessary. The more fuel at a specified RPM is great, but your DD MPG goes down the crapper...
Is there a way to have the fuel be added at a specific load and RPM?


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (hugemikeyd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hugemikeyd* »_is there any way that we could possibly recode the ECU to accept more boost? I mean is that hard coded in the ECU somewhere that we could not get to it?
Tricking the ECU is one way to go, but couldn't you just update the ECU? That way we could add more fuel when neccessary and not when unneccessary. The more fuel at a specified RPM is great, but your DD MPG goes down the crapper...
Is there a way to have the fuel be added at a specific load and RPM?

yeah, its called buying a chip.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (hugemikeyd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hugemikeyd* »_Is there a way to have the fuel be added at a specific load and RPM?

This is what is mostly done. By having a signal when going WOT, and boost being clamped at X volts, triggers the 2nd set of injectors to turn on. This equals your question: Fuel added at a specific load and RPM.
Scaling it is better, as it is linear then. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
This is what is mostly done. By having a signal when going WOT, and boost being clamped at X volts, triggers the 2nd set of injectors to turn on. This equals your question: Fuel added at a specific load and RPM.
Scaling it is better, as it is linear then. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

ahh ok, that makes more sense. So instead of NOS you have a second set of injectors for WOT, nice!


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
This is what is mostly done. By having a signal when going WOT, and boost being clamped at X volts, triggers the 2nd set of injectors to turn on. This equals your question: Fuel added at a specific load and RPM.


this is a good idea, it will allow you to keep the ecu from throwing you into limp from overboosting while compensating for fuel as well..


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (XSiVE)*

For my goals, additional injectors shouldnt be needed. The setup does seem pretty straightforward tho.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

I took a trip down to Virginia this weekend to visit some family, and while I was down there, 1.8t3t04e drove over to meet up with me and he let me drive his car. 26psi never felt so good!! Who says you need a chip!?! That thing pulled, even with those huge 19s. And I can't wait to install my open wastegate!
His car had a diode, unplugged MAF and 550cc injectors. Idled fine, and seemed to run fine when I drove it. If I wasn't in such a rush, I was 20 minutes late for lunch with the grandparents







, I would have taken more pictures:


----------



## rawlmark (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Which Diode was he using? I still think all this can work with readily available hardware (diodes instead of new MAP's). 
BTW, your server's down.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (rawlmark)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rawlmark* »_Which Diode was he using? I still think all this can work with readily available hardware (diodes instead of new MAP's). 
BTW, your server's down.

It's funny, I can log into my servers FTP, so I know it's up, but I can't go to my website either? Oh well, it will eventually show up. Anyway, he uses different diodes all the time, so I don't know which one he had in, but most likly a 4.7v.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Does he have an uprated fuel pump?...


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

yea, a walbro inline.


----------



## jmodeasia (Feb 11, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DISTURBO)*

i am very interested, can you please tell me the specs, set up and wires? and do you have pic of it? will it also works on unchipped but mbc 1.8t? i have apr chipped! thanks


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

So he has one in the tank and the Walbro just aft?...


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (Don R)*

yea, he has a stock intank fuel pump, then the secondary inline pump. Don, do you use AOL Instant Messanger? It would be so much easier to talk to you that way, rather than back and forth on here. My screenname is mattgross9


_Modified by nebulight at 9:47 PM 10-5-2003_


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (nebulight)*

How does he have 550's idling fine with the MAF unplugged?


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_How does he have 550's idling fine with the MAF unplugged?









maybe the diode on the map affects the fueling.....


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (drm916)*

But he's on a stock chip. The injector pulse can't be adjusted that much. You know that.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_Someone spec it out.
_Modified by VDUBNDizzy at 5:37 PM 9-15-2003_

lol


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

it does idle alittle rough... not to bad tho... i am running them at 3bar, and my maf is unplugged because i will sometimes get a freak limp mode with it plugged in... i will post a pic in in a second... 
edit:










_Modified by 1.8T3t04e at 4:54 PM 10-6-2003_


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*

How would you be getting limp with the MAP clamped? MAF limit exceeded? TQ limit exceeded? What codes thrown? Or can you shed any other light on the main subject here, MAP clamping? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

im going to have to go with maf related ... it will only do it every now and then and it happens after 6000rpm and it will back off to 10psi, if you look at my dyno graph you will see where it backed to 10psi, i would have got alot more power when i dyno'ed at waterfest with the maf unplugged and a 3bar regulator... it idles better with the maf pluged in, but with it unpluged it doesnt idle all that bad(a tad rough), i mean after all, matt didnt even notice ...


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*

Thanks for your input.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*

this is very encouraging info. I wonder how this would work on my 20th GTI with a ATP stage II?


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (drm916)*

Only one way to find out.


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

I have tried 440cc and MAF unplugged and it run way rich in idle.


_Modified by 20V1.8Tnut at 12:31 PM 10-6-2003_


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20V1.8Tnut* »_I have tried 440cc and MAF unplugged and it run way rich in idle.

_Modified by 20V1.8Tnut at 12:31 PM 10-6-2003_

what chip did you have in? Stock or Aftermarket?
What 440's did you use?


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
what chip did you have in? Stock or Aftermarket?
What 440's did you use?

GIAC K04 chip and Bosch "Green Tops" 42 Lb, the same injectors Chris86vw uses.


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*PS.*

PS, if you have a surging problem then this is your fix. and if you want alittle more boost out of your ko3 add an mbc, or crank down on the 10mm nuts on the actuator rod, get you a nice 26psi spike with no limp and no wot surging. but we all know the ko3 blows a super heated chrage at 20+psi. so experament at your own risk, upgrade your ic or spray it down with a misting kit and some alcohol.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

i wonder if the stock chip likes the injectors more? Keep in mind the K04 chip uses the injectors alot more than the stock chip. Maybe that is where the difference comes in.


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_i wonder if the stock chip likes the injectors more? Keep in mind the K04 chip uses the injectors alot more than the stock chip. Maybe that is where the difference comes in.

I'd say the boost curve on the stock chip is more linear then aftermarket and thus easier to play with.
My GIAC K03/K04 chips spike high at low RPM and then taper down closer to high end.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

Steve, are you using a larger MAF housing?


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

He has a VR6 housing, but if it isn't plugged in it really doesn't matter.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

I know that. Why not try a 3" or larger inner diameter though? The VR6 housing is no where NEAR matched for the injectors he's using. No wonder he's hitting limp. It's still seeing WAY too much air.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

That's what I'm using, an S4 housing, but it's not installed yet.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*

Maybe it would run better with that? Also, there was a guy on the FI forums selling two brand new billet housings for $100 that would support some hefty injectors. 3.5" and 3.95"!


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

hmmmmmmmmm.... Reallly? alrighy well i must be insearch of this 3.5 id deal...


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

I still think steve's car is a freak!!!







A freak in a good way.
I think your limp issues have to be from the maf, and it has to be running at least a little rich.
Also, since it is stock programming, he has to have a smaller voltage diode too right? 4.7V is like 19psi, if he is stock, he cant go above 1 bar right, or limp right? 1 bar is like 4V.
What DTC's do you get? I think our cars can do +/- 15% for fueling, but it still has to be rich. Also, at idle, it is under vacuum, love to see an A/F gauge on this car on idle.
Still believing his cars a freak. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Modified by new 337 at 12:52 PM 10-6-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_hmmmmmmmmm.... Reallly? alrighy well i must be insearch of this 3.5 id deal...

Yeah, that's the way I would go. Do that and the car should run VERY well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: (nebulight)*

I've got some 580's I may try. The only thing I could see with stock maps is the fueling is much lower. WHen I tried my 580's I fouled out my plugs after less then 1 mile. This was on some K04 programming.


----------



## StevenH (Jul 8, 2000)

*Re: (rawlmark)*

I just bought a split second vc2 adjustable voltage clamp and was wondering what a good starting point would be to set it at. I'm running a T28 and just looking to avoid the throttle body closing. Thanks for any help


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (Bug_Power)*

sorry for the double post


_Modified by 1.8T3t04e at 11:16 PM 10-6-2003_


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (Bug_Power)*

yes it runs rich at 4bar and no maf... 9:1 at 4bar and 22psi and with the 3bar fpr and the 4.3v .5w diode i hold a little more timing using up some more of the extra fuel and it brings me to about 11.1:1 at the top of 25-27psi. i will be putting up my most current dyno graph shortly. the set up for 392whp and 353lb-ft pull is as followed : 110 race fuel, 4.3v .5w diode vis the 4.7v diode, 3bar regulator and unplugged maf, as well as a new pre-cat O2 sensor that has been fould for about 4 months now, and open exhaust and 45º air temps and IC sprayed with alcohol.
my 301whp pull (chart in sig) was with 4bar fpr, 4.7v diode, 95º air temp and after 4 pulls with no break inbetween 9:1 a/f


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_ the set up for 392whp and 353lb-ft pull is as followed : 110 race fuel, 4.3v .5w diode vis the 4.7v diode, 3bar regulator and unplugged maf, as well as a new pre-cat O2 sensor that has been fould for about 4 months now, and open exhaust and 45º air temps and IC sprayed with alcohol.
my 301whp pull (chart in sig) was with 4bar fpr, 4.7v diode, 95º air temp and after 4 pulls with no break inbetween 9:1 a/f

Golden info, thanks so much for sharing!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_ the set up for 392whp and 353lb-ft pull is as followed : 110 race fuel, 4.3v .5w diode vis the 4.7v diode, 3bar regulator and unplugged maf, as well as a new pre-cat O2 sensor that has been fould for about 4 months now, and open exhaust and 45º air temps and IC sprayed with alcohol.
my 301whp pull (chart in sig) was with 4bar fpr, 4.7v diode, 95º air temp and after 4 pulls with no break inbetween 9:1 a/f

400whp!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_yes it runs rich at 4bar and no maf... 9:1 at 4bar and 22psi and with the 3bar fpr and the 4.3v .5w diode i hold a little more timing using up some more of the extra fuel and it brings me to about 11.1:1 at the top of 25-27psi. i will be putting up my most current dyno graph shortly. the set up for 392whp and 353lb-ft pull is as followed : 110 race fuel, 4.3v .5w diode vis the 4.7v diode, 3bar regulator and unplugged maf, as well as a new pre-cat O2 sensor that has been fould for about 4 months now, and open exhaust and 45º air temps and IC sprayed with alcohol.
my 301whp pull (chart in sig) was with 4bar fpr, 4.7v diode, 95º air temp and after 4 pulls with no break inbetween 9:1 a/f

HOLY ISH STEVE!!!! You're making some serious power!!!! When you gonna let me take it for a spin? Come on man.....you even let Kenny drive.














jk


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

well ... does any one know how much the atp stage 4 chip is going for.... im thinking i can use it in a way seeing as it eliminates the rev limiter and if i can get them to set the requested boost at 26psi then i should never have a throttle body plate closer... if i can fully get rid of it then i can run my n2o setup... 
Edit: i dont like running without the maf.


_Modified by 1.8T3t04e at 1:39 AM 10-7-2003_


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_well ... does any one know how much the atp stage 4 chip is going for.... im thinking i can use it in a way seeing as it eliminates the rev limiter and if i can get them to set the requested boost at 26psi then i should never have a throttle body plate closer... if i can fully get rid of it then i can run my n2o setup... 
Edit: *i dont like running without the maf* .
I don't blame you. Did you find those housings I was telling you about?

_Modified by 1.8T3t04e at 1:39 AM 10-7-2003_


----------



## spl147 (Jan 30, 2002)

*Re: (barelyboosting1.8t)*

i am gonna run 310cc injectors any one know what size maf housing to use?and waht size diode for the map?


----------



## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (spl147)*

310s aren't really worth looking at since they only give you the same flow as a 4 bar FPR (15% more injector flow). So... 15% more injector flow needs a 15% larger MAF inner area, so a MAF with inner diameter of 2.53", but a 2.5" will do. If your car is Motronic 7 (AWD, AWP, AWW), the ECU will fine tune the small discrepancies.
Also, why do you want to clamp your MAP if you probably won't hit limp?
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 9:39 AM 10-7-2003_


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (spl147)*

there are only two options, 60mm and 70mm unless you would go custom, but for 310cc injectors you dont need a bigger maf


----------



## spl147 (Jan 30, 2002)

*Re: (Speedy G)*

what if i do 310cc injectors @ 4 bar?


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (spl147)*

Depends on how much power you want. APR's stage III uses the Audi TT 310's @ 4 bar, and can get over 310 hp on race gas pretty easily...


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_Depends on how much power you want. APR's stage III uses the Audi TT 310's @ 4 bar, and can get over 310 hp on race gas pretty easily...

Aren't TT injectors 36lbs (380cc)?


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_
Aren't TT injectors 36lbs (380cc)?

they are 350cc


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20V1.8Tnut* »_
they are 350cc

For the 225hp TT correct?


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

I don't know why they call them 310's, but they do.








Anyway, they should be good for ~ 300 hp or so at 4 bars.


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
For the 225hp TT correct?

That is correct, sir.


----------



## exS4 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

Somebody should make a 2.5bar Map sensor that plugs-into our cars with no fuss!
maybe ECSTuning or somebody like that should do it!


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (exS4)*

your car already has a 2.5 bar map sensor


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

well here is some new news... straight from a South Carolina dubber running a t3t4 and giac software... he installed the gm 3bar map sensor and made sure it was wired right, and his ecu went nuts... unless he f-ed up on the install, dont waste your time or money on a 3bar map sensor setup...the guy in S.C. (patric) knows his electronics... so just some news on running different map sensors if anyone had any crazy thoughts going on....


----------



## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

Not much info here regarding the clamping of the MAP... This is MAF/injector stuff, which I thought had been discussed to death. The search function is sometimes useful. Search for "fuel problem".
The TT injectors do 300whp on APR stg III with 100 octane. They're probably working at 4 bar, so given that they flow 360ml @ 3 bar(Never heard 350 or 380, and they're definitely not 310s), they should flow around 415ml, which is really only enough for 250whp on pump. If the FPR is a 5 bar, then they flow 460ml, which is only enough for 280whp.
Speedy G


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

does anybody know the specific input to output of our stock sensor?
like 0v = ??? mbar and so on. Also, how accurate is our sensor? 0.125 bar?


----------



## exS4 (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (MEDoc)*

"your car already has a 2.5 bar map sensor"
If THAT's true, then why do people keeping going-in LIMP-mode beyond 1bar?


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_well here is some new news... straight from a South Carolina dubber running a t3t4 and giac software... he installed the gm 3bar map sensor and made sure it was wired right, and his ecu went nuts... unless he f-ed up on the install, dont waste your time or money on a 3bar map sensor setup...the guy in S.C. (patric) knows his electronics... so just some news on running different map sensors if anyone had any crazy thoughts going on....

Thanks man.


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (exS4)*

When you car goes into limp mode is a function of software, not hardware. APR III uses the stock *2.5 bar* map and doesn't go into limp at 1 bar. ?Comprende?
Also, keep in mind that the map sensors are rated in absolute pressure, so even though 2.5 bar sounds like a lot, its only ~ 22-23 psi gauge. 


_Modified by MEDoc at 2:12 PM 10-7-2003_


----------



## OneQuickDub (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DISTURBO)*

bump


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (OneQuickDub)*

steve-
any info to shed besides "the ecu went nuts" when the guy installed a larger map sensor?


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_steve-
any info to shed besides "the ecu went nuts" when the guy installed a larger map sensor?

Please.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

Why would the ecu go nuts with the 3 bar and not with it clamped?


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

Because the readings are then scaled, not clamped.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_Because the readings are then scaled, not clamped. 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I think he's right.


----------



## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

I would say scaling is better. There are other specs, like what the 0 pressure voltage is, whether the thing is linear or logarithmic, or whether it outputs a voltage for a given pressure or duty cycle. The point is that with a sensor that matches the stock specs but has a measures more pressure/volt would be better than clamping.
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 5:09 PM 10-7-2003_


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Speedy G)*

If there is an exact sensor that can be used then yes...but if there is not I'd go with the Clamp.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

I still plan on trying so I'll let you know what the result is. I may be trying this with a slightly larger turbo as well, hopefully.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

i dont really follow most of this post but i keep seeing you guys look for a way to scale the map voltage...well voltage is current times resistance, so can you add some resistors (in "series" with the map) or something?...sorry if this is a gross oversimplification...
edit: i just feel like i should add that i'm pretty sure i'm just missing something...if not, resistors are cheap








edit: the computer sends the map a current and the boost pressure changes the resitance of some transistor in the map in a known way which means the current going back to the ECU is different and from the diffence the pressure is infered...is this the way it goes...?
_Modified by gelatin at 3:44 PM 10-7-2003_


_Modified by gelatin at 3:56 PM 10-7-2003_


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (gelatin)*

the problem with a resistor, i think, is that it scales ALL voltages. That means that at idle, 0 boost, the reading would be even lower that usual right?


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (hugemikeyd)*

yeah...i dont know...there was rumor on this post that the map only counts when boosting, else its the maf...but yeah, it seems too simple anyway...something must be off about it...
edit:...but you are right, it would scale everything...


_Modified by gelatin at 4:17 PM 10-7-2003_


----------



## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (hugemikeyd)*

Right. Someone (Scotty Passatt I think) posted the voltages for the MAP, and the 0 boost value is somewhere in the middle. What I wonder is if you can even get a MAP sensor that scales the positive boost values but not vacuum. Otherwise, your idle/cruising modes will be off. My thoughts for a while have been that the S-AFC could do a good job at scaling the MAP, or maybe the split second PSC-1-003. I'd probably get the split second calibrator if I had the MAP problem.
Speedy G


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Speedy G)*

cant people hardwire if/then switches?...so, if voltage greater than X then do something, else do nothing...then you'd have a "smart" signal conditioner ...seems people have hardwired more complex calculations...


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Why would the ecu go nuts with the 3 bar and not with it clamped?
well... from what i gathered the signal being sent to the ecu while the car was at idle was so far fetched the ecu as calling for more fuel at idle, the idle was so rough and the plugs fouled out after 10 minutes of test time... just word of mouth... not exactly a first hand account... good luck to those who plan to play with the 3bar map sensor...


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_well... from what i gathered the signal being sent to the ecu while the car was at idle was so far fetched the ecu as calling for more fuel at idle, the idle was so rough and the plugs fouled out after 10 minutes of test time... just word of mouth... not exactly a first hand account... good luck to those who plan to play with the 3bar map sensor... 


So now maybe this thread will return to topic, CLAMPING THE MAP SENSOR.............








Anyone have some 380 injectors and a VR6 MAF housing for sale? IM me please.


_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 6:59 PM 10-7-2003_


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

LOL...right with you buddy...


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

My question is this, are you guys running the injector/MAF combo on the stock turbo or is everyone on the ATPstg2 and up? What inlet are you using from the larger MAF housing to the turbo?


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

ive been following this thread and it seems to me that 1.8T3t04e obviously is doing somthing right to make such increadible numbers, maybe i missed somthing but why dont others do what he did and make power? Im sure im missing something here.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

No, you're not, he's listed everything in this thread. The rest is obvious. Still not sure how his 550 injectors idle fine when people have trouble going to larger injectors and different FPR's on chips yet he's fine on stock programming with an unplugged MAF.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

So i dont wanna say he got lucky, but is that what could explain it?


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_So i dont wanna say he got lucky, but is that what could explain it?

Who knows.


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

well i sure as hell cant explain it... i am running a 3bar fpr... its def. wierd that it idles so well... i mean it dosnt idle prefect as if it had the stock injectors in her, butstill not bad... and i sometimes pop a system to rich code... also i replaced my fould as *** pre cat o2 sensor... and that helped out alot when i dynoed the second go-round as far as the rich condition under full boost. im trying to hep you guys out as much as possible with my "secrets" to big numbers... lots of tenkering... where i work i have lots of tools and lots of free time.... not to mention a mk4 gti with a 20v 1.8t and a nice size turbo and lots of straight roads http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*

lol.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_well... from what i gathered the signal being sent to the ecu while the car was at idle was so far fetched the ecu as calling for more fuel at idle, the idle was so rough and the plugs fouled out after 10 minutes of test time... just word of mouth... not exactly a first hand account... good luck to those who plan to play with the 3bar map sensor... 

While I do believe you are relaying what you heard, this doesnt necessarily sound right. If you scale the map readings, then @ idle it would be reading less air, less pressure, so it should fuel less, not foul the plugs rich, right? Doesnt this sound logical? Again, not calling you out, but it just doesnt make sense to me. I can understand running a hair lean at idle, but 02 sensors are in control then, so it should be able to adjust that without issue.
Anyone else?


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_ What inlet are you using from the larger MAF housing to the turbo?

I have a TT225 maf boot that should fit.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
While I do believe you are relaying what you heard, this doesnt necessarily sound right. If you scale the map readings, then @ idle it would be reading less air, less pressure, so it should fuel less, not foul the plugs rich, right? Doesnt this sound logical? Again, not calling you out, but it just doesnt make sense to me. I can understand running a hair lean at idle, but 02 sensors are in control then, so it should be able to adjust that without issue.
Anyone else?

I would have to agree. I think the guy was having other issues. But I thought all you guys were stuck on the map not affecting fuel anyway?


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

HAHA!! Touche.....








Still banking on this working. Steve, quit shooting us down. And I still have ZERO understanding as to how your car can idle with 550cc injectors, and be maf-less....


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

i've got an AWD GTI that I'll throw my 580's on. Unplug the MAF.....is there ANYthing else that needs to be done to get it to work? Stock programming and all on this car!


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Bug_Power)*

Rodney, I am surprized you are asking questions in here, you are supposed to be soooo good at tweeking MK4 cars...









_Quote, originally posted by *Bug_Power* »_is there ANYthing else that needs to be done to get it to work? 

You have to try and figure it out yourself.... Then you would say that it is your secret


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
I have a TT225 maf boot that should fit.

Are you using it? Or is it available?


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Bug_Power)*

thats it... but dont forget the diode on the map signal wire... bleeding to ground. and a 3bar regulator.. even 440's would work. oh yeah, and dont forget to turn the boost up to like 30psi! lol j/k like 20-25 and some 110octane and hop on the dyno on a cool day and mist the ic.


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

hey man, i completely agree... but its just word of mouth... like i stated... if anyhing it should be lean... but i really dont know what the deal is with that 3bar map setup... i would try it if i wasnt seeing results with my current set up... i run 18psi daily.


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## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (20V1.8Tnut)*

The reason I ask is because I had my 580's on before and fouled out plugs in under 1 mile. So I want to see what he has on his setup. 
As far as the Diode. Is it just a Zenier Diode? What voltage? Do you have any pictures of your setup?


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Bug_Power)*

back on page 16 or so.... of this thread... also for more timing up top 4.3v .5w zener and some race gas , for 93 4.7v .5w ... i just got into the thread 2 days ago, after following it from day one


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*

Are you changing your boost levels for the different clamping voltages in your two different dynos? Or just voltage and FPR setting?
Also, do you have an A/f plot. Seems to me like when you hit your clamp the duty cycle on the injectors would only be operating in one row of the injection map, and timing map. Your timing, and fueling would remain constant relative to boost regardless of your actual value. This woudl be optimized for only a very small region. I dont see how this could run properly. 
You have to tune it so its not running lean at max boost and redline, but the whole time your A/f would be pig rich, and the ignintion retarded just to have a correct tune only at peak boost and redline?


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Are you changing your boost levels for the different clamping voltages in your two different dynos? Or just voltage and FPR setting?
Seems to me like when you hit your clamp the duty cycle on the injectors would only be operating in one row of the injection map, and timing map. Your timing, and fueling would remain constant relative to boost regardless of your actual value. This woudl be optimized for only a very small region. I dont see how this could run properly. 


This would be the case only if the map is used for fueling. I am still not convinced that the map is used primarily for fueling... I believe the map is there for other reasons and that fueling is only a very small portion of its function as part of the ME7 system. And I also believe it can be bypassed without too drastically affecting fueling.


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (drm916)*

at wide open throttle the map doesnt really control the fueling as much once the car goes into open loop... well thats what i figured based on pattaww's explanation. or maybe it was scotty passat... and my soldering broke on my 4.3 .5 zener and the diode is to short to be re-soldering... so i called 4 million places around town to get a new diode and only one place had a 4.3v zener, but the thing is, its 1w not .5w... im trying to figure out if this is going to cause any problems... any electronic guru's out there? your input on .5w vs 1w would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*

yeah, i've just spent all morning trying to figure out the difference...if i had to guess i'd say it had something to do with how fast the thing dumps to ground...just a guess...
edit: why did you use the .5 watt diode first?...is that just what was around?
edit: if i'm right, and i'm not saying i am, then the 1 watt diode would dump faster...so you'd be better off...
_Modified by gelatin at 11:18 AM 10-8-2003_


_Modified by gelatin at 11:24 AM 10-8-2003_


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*

I would have to say that the power rating is how much power it can dissapate before it pops. Kind of like a fuse. If that's the case, going to a higher power raiting should be fine.


----------



## rawlmark (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_I would have to say that the power rating is how much power it can dissapate before it pops. Kind of like a fuse. If that's the case, going to a higher power raiting should be fine.

Agreed, to an extent. The higher the wattage, the more the tolerencing could be off. That 5% that's attached to part number is the tolerencing, and on 4.7V that would be about .215V, which could throw you into limp mode if you go too much above that with .215V. With the 4.3V Diode I don't think it's going to be a big a deal because you have more room to play with. Let us know how it works out.


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_ any electronic guru's out there? your input on .5w vs 1w would be greatly appreciated.

My wife the electrical geek said check this out......
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.g...ml#c3


_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 11:39 AM 10-8-2003_


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## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

thinking back to my college days, i learned that a Zener is merely just a diode with a resistor attached at the end...
couldn't we just use a diode that has a 0.5w power rating with a resistor following to get a precise cut off value? I mean that way there would be no 5% to worry about...
Then again, its MUCH easier to throw on a diode already calibrated and if you were to go this route, you might as well go with the op amp circuit, oh well


----------



## Bug_Power (Nov 27, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (hugemikeyd)*

only zenier I could find was a 5.1 at radio shack. I tried bypassing my n270 (or what ever controlls the DV) with a 30ohm .5 watt and within seconds it was smoking. I just unplugged the sensor (kinda like how you do it with the airbag) and put the legs of the resistor across it. Smoke Smoke Smoke.


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## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Bug_Power)*

well i will be installing the 4.3v 1w zener tomorrow along with the front mount... im getting ready for a big track event here in va... its a 1/4mile event... runnig open downpipe, 4.3v 1w zener, 110 octane race fuel, maybe installing a quick single fogger wet kit (40shot) just to crack 12's on street tires if i cant do it all turbo. Tryin to REPRESENT the VW scene! cat back is off, making a quick turndown tube, ... damn i hope i get it all done and on the trailer by 9am SAT. (1.5hour drive to virginia motorsports park)... wish me luck fellas








edit****** check out this site for zeners, its hard to find them out in town http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/....y=12 


_Modified by 1.8T3t04e at 9:41 PM 10-8-2003_


----------



## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*

thanks very much for the web page....no one in my town has less than a 5.1V...


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*

Can't wait to see your results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rawlmark (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_on the trailer by 9am SAT. (1.5hour drive to virginia motorsports park).


in Dinwiddie (Petersburg)??? MAN, I may cruise down and check things out. Let me know if you need any help. I only live about 20-25 Minutes from there.


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## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (rawlmark)*

thore support the better!!! hell if you can lauch the car you can go for 12's because i cant launch the damn thing for ****


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_thore support the better!!! hell if you can lauch the car you can go for 12's because i cant launch the damn thing for ****

Hey Steve, bring it down and I'll give it a go at G-ville.







Better look into a diff soon.


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*

man, we are adding a page to this thread everyday!


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (gelatin)*

http://www.galco.com/kwpages/NTE/DIOD-0008.htm


_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 3:36 PM 10-8-2003_


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_I dont see any 5w listed on that page. Are we looking at 0.5w units?

Yup!


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

For testing purposes what do yall think? Solder short pieces of black wire to the diode then use 3M splice to tap into the signal and ground wire?










_Modified by MRP2001GTi at 4:28 PM 10-8-2003_


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

i think the diode should be the other way no?


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (hugemikeyd)*

cathode band towards the signal wire


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_cathode band towards the signal wire 

i stand corrected, Zener Mike its a Zener!


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (hugemikeyd)*


















































































































17psi No chip!!!
Now that midterms are finally over, I had time tonight to install my diode that I showed you guys a few pages back. Here is a picture:








Since I have to stock FPR and stock injectors, I don't think I'm going ro run 17 psi. I think I'm going to keep it at 15, but this time I won't get limp!








Oh yea, FYI:










_Modified by nebulight at 8:54 PM 10-8-2003_


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Very nice!!! I think I'll wait for my fueling. I'm already seeing spikes of 26psi and 15-16 at redline. My injectors are so beyond maxed it's not even funny!!! I'm hitting 100% duty cycle by like 6k!







Still on stock ic too.


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## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

i know what i'm gonna mess up this weekend







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Very nice!!! I think I'll wait for my fueling. I'm already seeing spikes of 26psi and 15-16 at redline. My injectors are so beyond maxed it's not even funny!!! I'm hitting 100% duty cycle by like 6k!







Still on stock ic too.
















I wouldn't have added a diode if I had a chip. The only reason I did was to have modest boost with no limp. If you are chipped, I would NOT do this without fuel, like you said. Also, I would have a spare turbo laying around.....


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

LOL!!! Yeah, I have dibs on one real soon.


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_
I wouldn't have added a diode if I had a chip. The only reason I did was to have modest boost with no limp. If you are chipped, I would NOT do this without fuel, like you said. Also, I would have a spare turbo laying around.....

Well unless you have a super mild chip like the Up. It goes limp at 19 PSI. If one could use a clamp to avoid limp when using an H or J valve it would be nice. But on the other hand here is my plan. All parts are on order as I write. 
380cc injectors
VR6 MAF housing
MBC
Diode 4.7v .5w
I plan to run the ECU with the Up chip first and set the MBC at 17 and do some VAG runs to make sure everything is ok. I want to see how the fuel looks and I am curious what the boost signal is with the 4.7 diode. 
Once I do a few runs and I am happy all is well I plan to pop my spare ECU in that is completely stock and do the same runs again and compare. After those test are done and fuel still looks good I am gonna crank the MBC down until I am spiking 22 psi or so and holding a little more than what the Up software does at 6000. Again checking fuel and other readings. We will see how all this goes and then decide if I really want the software that comes with the ATP kit.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

i just recieved my order of diodes.... I got all sorts and ranges for a little fun... Maybe I can see if the map really does adjust fueling....
Quan Item No. Description 
---- ----------- ------------------------------- 
1 1N746 3.3V/.4W (7pk) 
1 1N748 3.9V/.4W (7pk) 
1 1N749 4.3V/.4W (7pk) 
1 1N750 4.7V/.4W (7pk) 
1 1N4372 3V/.5W Zener (5pk) 
1 1N4728 3.3V/1W (4pk) 
1 1N4729 3.6V/1W (4pk) 
1 1N4731 4.3V/1W (4pk) 
1 1N4732 4.7V/1W (4pk) 
1 1N5226 3.3V/.5W (7pk) 
1 1N5335 3.9V/5W (2pk) 
1 1N5337 4.3V/5W (2pk) 

I should be able to clamp at different values and check A/F while boositng the same. So boost at 18 psi with a clamp at like 10 psi....then boost at 18 psi and clamp at 14 psi....then check and see if the fueling actually changes with the ecu seeing different clamp values. i guess I will log timing also. 
Hopefully i will be able to do all this over the weekend.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (drm916)*

Have you guys seen this?
http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/diymaplimiter/


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

well we have seen this one: http://www.teamfc3s.org/info/a...d.htm
i like that one better though b/c it is designed to run off of a 12v power supply, whereas the one you posted runs off of a 5v supply.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_I should be able to clamp at different values and check A/F while boositng the same. So boost at 18 psi with a clamp at like 10 psi....then boost at 18 psi and clamp at 14 psi....then check and see if the fueling actually changes with the ecu seeing different clamp values. i guess I will log timing also. 
Hopefully i will be able to do all this over the weekend. 

I would go in the reverse order. Boost to like 17psi, clamp at 15psi, and see what A/F does. Without newer injectors, cold inlet temps, boosting to 18psi and clamping at 10psi on a K03 doesnt sound too good. It might ping like crazy.... Maybe throw in the 100octane as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
I would go in the reverse order. Boost to like 17psi, clamp at 15psi, and see what A/F does. Without newer injectors, cold inlet temps, boosting to 18psi and clamping at 10psi on a K03 doesnt sound too good. It might ping like crazy.... Maybe throw in the 100octane as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Yea... I just want to try adjusting the clamp with every other variable the same.... Then I can tell if it really does affect fueling.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (drm916)*

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/vres.htm 
How bout this? Variable


----------



## rawlmark (Nov 19, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_ http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/vres.htm 
How bout this? Variable

Sorry, It's not that easy. You would need the complete circuit for a FCD (Fuel Cut Defender) in order for a resistor to work properly. I still haven't gotten my FCD to work properly on the test bench. Still working on it though.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (rawlmark)*

TTT!!!!


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

clamping with a 4.7v .5w diode what is the actual boost the car is suppose to see. I will run some vag logs soon and i wanna know if its on tap.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

This is what I'm guessing:
Stock4.7V * 7.35 psi) / 5V = 6.9 psi [7.35 = 0.5 Bar]
Chip: (4.7V * 22.05 psi) / 5V = 20.72 psi [22.05 psi = 1.5 Bar]


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_This is what I'm guessing:
Stock4.7V * 7.35 psi) / 5V = 6.9 psi [7.35 = 0.5 Bar]
Chip: (4.7V * 22.05 psi) / 5V = 20.72 psi [22.05 psi = 1.5 Bar]


So with the 4.7 diode the MAP will see 20.72 psi, isnt that still too much boost for a STOCK ecu'd car? Wont it hit limp?


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_
So with the 4.7 diode the MAP will see 20.72 psi, isnt that still too much boost for a STOCK ecu'd car? Wont it hit limp?


20.72 psi is for a typically chipped car. 6.9 psi would be for a stock chip car.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_This is what I'm guessing:
Stock4.7V * 7.35 psi) / 5V = 6.9 psi [7.35 = 0.5 Bar]
Chip: (4.7V * 22.05 psi) / 5V = 20.72 psi [22.05 psi = 1.5 Bar]


Those numbers don't seem right, I was boosting 9-10psi stock. Now with my 4.3v, I'm boosting 17 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_
So with the 4.7 diode the MAP will see 20.72 psi, isnt that still too much boost for a STOCK ecu'd car? Wont it hit limp?


that is the whole point of the diode, not to hit limp. Those numbers are refering to a chipped ECU.


----------



## EliteDubs (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

ok, i'm to lazy to read all 19 pages on this. are you guys sayin, i only have to put a diode in and i can boost 17psi safely with a stock ecu? is that a spiek of 17psi?


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (vwpassatboy)*

Just finished installed the diode, no more limp. I boost about 15-16 then drops, it doesnt hold boost. Somtimes it even jumps around 8-10-14. Its all over the place


_Modified by halchka99 at 3:41 PM 10-11-2003_


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

The parts just keep rolling in, one day I will have enough.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (vwpassatboy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwpassatboy* »_ok, i'm to lazy to read all 19 pages on this. are you guys sayin, i only have to put a diode in and i can boost 17psi safely with a stock ecu? is that a spiek of 17psi? 

Dont be lazy, and read the entire thread! You need to adress fueling if you are going to run 17psi sustained....


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Don R* »_This is what I'm guessing:
Stock4.7V * 7.35 psi) / 5V = 6.9 psi [7.35 = 0.5 Bar]
Chip: (4.7V * 22.05 psi) / 5V = 20.72 psi [22.05 psi = 1.5 Bar]


Are you suggesting that the map voltage look up table is changed from a chipped vehicle as opposed to stock? If so, I think you are wrong.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_The parts just keep rolling in, one day I will have enough.

















Why aren't they in yet!?!














LOL
*EDIT* Page * 20 * owned by me!


_Modified by nebulight at 12:58 AM 10-12-2003_


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
Are you suggesting that the map voltage look up table is changed from a chipped vehicle as opposed to stock? If so, I think you are wrong.

These are not exact it was just an example. I'm really not sure what is the stock chip limit is.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_
Those numbers don't seem right, I was boosting 9-10psi stock. Now with my 4.3v, I'm boosting 17 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Me too! What is the stock chip boost limit, anyways (FAQ:Eng Code Compression Exh. Dia. Turbo Stock Boost Timing
AWD 9.5:1 55mm ko3 0.6bar No VVT
AWW 9.3:1 50mm ko3/ko4 0.6 bar VCT
AWP 9.5:1 55mm ko3/ko4 0.8bar VCT emmis)


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Don R)*

Those are what the programming requests at a flat level in upper rpms. On an AWP, you can spike to 1 bar safely, ~14.5 psi with no ill effects from the ECU. Not sure on the AWD and AWW.


----------



## DimcheMKV (Jan 13, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

Is this mod worth doing if lets say your running REVO 3bar and you want to run a lil higher boost to redline, like 2 or 3 more psi?
Or adding a Race N75 valve to give that lil extra boost in the end....


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (DimcheMKV)*

This mod isnt for K03 setups.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_This mod isnt for K03 setups.

how come?
What if you are boosting moderately?


_Modified by halchka99 at 3:04 PM 10-12-2003_


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_This mod isnt for K03 setups.

I'm going to have to agree with halchka99. Just as long as you keep the boost low, it's a great way to up the boost and prevent lag, and it doesn't cost $500, it only costs $0.20








But I do see where you are coming from new337, the turbo (k03) really can't take higher boost. That's why I think it's funny that people are trying get 20+psi out of the K03. At that point, it's just blowing hot air and killing performance and increasing the chance of detonation.
The only reason I did this mod was to work out all electrical kinks before I install my t3/t4.


----------



## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_Those are what the programming requests at a flat level in upper rpms. On an AWP, you can spike to 1 bar safely, ~14.5 psi with no ill effects from the ECU. Not sure on the AWD and AWW.

That's what I thought. With the MBC I have it boosting to 9-10 psi no probs with the K03. When I had the E-04 I had it set @ 11-12 psi no probs. Although, it would only boost as such at WOT if I were to gradually bring on the boost it would hover between 7-8 psi....(Stock chip setting)


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_
I'm going to have to agree with halchka99. Just as long as you keep the boost low, it's a great way to up the boost and prevent lag, and it doesn't cost $500, it only costs $0.20









While true, remember, he said with Revo 3 bar programming. So, you arent saving the 500 bux. Also, he asked about trying to get a few more psi to *redline* . That isnt a function of programming, the little k03 cant flow more than 12psi to redline, it just cant.
I do agree with the route you went tho, since you didnt use "chipped" programming and are just going a different route with it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

i want to run about 20 psi on pump(93oct). with a t3/t4. i made a 3in id maf housing and plan to use 440's at 3bar. i also ordered a couple of doides, 4.3v, 4.7v, and 5.1v all at .5w. i was thinking the 4.7 or the 5.1 for dailly driving and the 4.3 for race gas. tell me if i am wrong and what i need to use if so. thanks joel
oh, an no chip


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (slowgti)*

5.1 is worthless, that I do know.
Nebulight should be able to answer best since he does not have an aftermarket chip. i think he is using a 4.3 or 4.7 one, prolly 4.3 and keeping the boost moderate to like 17psi if memory serves correctly.
What YOU have to figure out is how much boost you are going to run, and clamp accordingly. The consensus seems to agree that timing will be advanced, so if you arent running more than 17-18psi, the clamping voltage should be different as opposed to running 23psi. Got it? Also, you are just gonna have to try it out, there isnt a book we are referencing. Make a buddy at a dyno shop, and take small steps! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Since you said 20psi, I think a 4.3 clamp may work. Might want to use a FMIC as well too to ensure you lower your inlet temps and help with detonation, and try it out on 100 octane and record your timing and timing retard blocks.










_Modified by new 337 at 9:44 PM 10-12-2003_


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

nebulight is using a 4.3 diode. im working with the 4.7 now.
He didnt have much luck with the 4.7 but the 4.3 is working for him. He is at 17psi currently.


----------



## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

yeah, deffinately a front mount. i will probably use the 4.7. i don't have a vag-com, anyone in the atlanta area want to loan/rent me one?


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (slowgti)*

SlowGTI-----------
i got one...
I also got a shiat load of diodes I just ordered.... If you want to experiment...let me know.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_If you want to experiment...let me know. 

I would love to make a comment about this....


----------



## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

thanks drm916, i ordered some, i might hit you up for some later. i am working on the manifold and down pipe, it will probly be awhile be for i get the turbo on there and to the dyno. i am also going to try and switch the maf, on at idle and off everything past that.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (new 337)*

lets not get this thread locked....







But, yes, I wanted to comment on that too


----------



## 20V1.8Tnut (Dec 31, 2000)

Someone here mentioned that tested zeners can be purchased for a few bucks a piece but I could not find that. Could you please direct me where I can get those tested ones?


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (20V1.8Tnut)*

One way to test it is to put it on, and if you get limp, that won't work.








I got 4.7v first, I tried one of them, and it didn't work. I could have fried the diode while I was solidering, but I don't know. I then tried the 4.3v and it worked. No more limp mode, and with my MBC, I set it to 17psi, still no limp. I didn't feel comfortable running the 4.3v at 17psi because the advanced timing even though I have 94 octane and a FMIC. I still have stock fuel, so I just turned it down to 15.


----------



## drm916 (Dec 6, 2000)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_One way to test it is to put it on, and if you get limp, that won't work.








I got 4.7v first, I tried one of them, and it didn't work. I could have fried the diode while I was solidering, but I don't know. I then tried the 4.3v and it worked. No more limp mode, and with my MBC, I set it to 17psi, still no limp. I didn't feel comfortable running the 4.3v at 17psi because the advanced timing even though I have 94 octane and a FMIC. I still have stock fuel, so I just turned it down to 15.

did you check A/F? If the a/f is good at 17...then you are good to go.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: (drm916)*

I have no way of checking it.....


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (drm916)*


_Quote, originally posted by *drm916* »_
did you check A/F? If the a/f is good at 17...then you are good to go.

isn't 17 lean?


----------



## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: (hugemikeyd)*

edit......just understood the question










_Modified by roly at 12:15 PM 10-14-2003_


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: (roly)*

I find this interesting. Assuming the output of the MAP is linear then 4.3 to 4.7 volts seems to clamp it right at 16 to 18 PSI and that is exactly where I can "feel" my timing is being advanced the most. If I crank my boost up any higher I can feel the timing being pulled as the boost comes on. Has anyone actually run the VAG to see what 4.3 and 4.7 represents in terms of PSI?


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_I have no way of checking it.....

Check your O2 voltage while you do some pulls. Or even better, find someone with a vagcom.


----------



## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

i would like to ssee some vag-com runs with the 4.3 and 4.7 on the same boost.


----------



## XSiVE (Nov 1, 2000)

*Re: (slowgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slowgti* »_i would like to ssee some vag-com runs with the 4.3 and 4.7 on the same boost.

depends on how much boost you put thru.. but the main difference on the 4.7 will be that limp mode is easier to hit.


----------



## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

i'll be trying this setup this weekend, i'll keep you updated http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (roly)*








both 4.3 and 4.7 are putting me in some sort of limp and its real annoying.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

What is happening exactly? What do you have your boost controller set to?


----------



## 1.8T3t04e (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

cathode towards the purple/grey??? be careful not to over heat the diode!!


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

okay basically
i have the MBC in place of the n75(but is electronically plugged in)
4.3V diode on MAP.
At some points just randomly i cannot boost what i have set the MBC at(12-13 psi)
The boost will only go up to about 4psi and then it will drop to 1psi even though i am at WOT.
This seems to happen in 5 and 6th gear. Also in 6th gear at a constant speed my boost isnt steady. It jumps around 2-3psi.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8T3t04e)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T3t04e* »_cathode towards the purple/grey??? be careful not to over heat the diode!!

Yes its towards the purple and gray wire.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

Try running it with the n75 unplugged completely. Seems to help for me.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_Also in 6th gear at a constant speed my boost isnt steady. It jumps around 2-3psi.

At constant speed you shouldnt be boosting at all....








How do you have your MBC setup? Charge pipe to inlet, outlet to wastegate?
And is the N75 removed and the hole capped off from the intake?


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

I think i should of rephrased it..constant speed as in while in boost(not vaccum) and am not laying off the throttle it happens...
Yes the MBC is installed correctly...The N75 is still there on the intake and is electronically plugged in.
Thanks for your help guys!!


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_
Yes the MBC is installed correctly...The N75 is still there on the intake and is electronically plugged in.
Thanks for your help guys!!

DUDE, if you haven’t tried it yet, UNPLUG that darn N75. With it plugged in the ECU sees it, tries to use it and gets no results. (my theory) Two other people running MBCs that were bypassing the N75 had nothing but limp issue when they left the N75 pluged in. Unplug it and get back to us. Also clear all your codes if you can, once you throw a code for limp enough times its really hard to get the car back to normal without clearing the codes.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Okay new update::::
Took n75 off fully. Electrically and vaccum lines. Ran like crap no boost.
Put n75 back. Electronically and both lines hooked up with the MBC...
Went onto the freeway and its holding 17-18 psi. Went till 6th gear and there were no problem. My car is retarded!!!!


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

Yeah, that's strange. If you were closer I'd hook the darn thing up for you!


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (barelyboosting1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *barelyboosting1.8t* »_Yeah, that's strange. If you were closer I'd hook the darn thing up for you!









LOL...You'd hook it up? With what? ive tried every damn combo possible and it seems though this is working.


----------



## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

Well, I don't know man. Mine's working perfect. Seeing spikes of 25-26psi and I have NOTHING clamped and haven't hit limp yet. Maybe MY car is retarded.







Oh well, I like it.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_My car is retarded!!!!

Well, you do drive a 20th......







JK


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_
Well, you do drive a 20th......







JK

Yes and when i reverse it moans soo loud it wakes up the neighbors


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

Another freakin update:::
Well guess what on the way to school this morning...same darm problem....This is just sooooooo annoying.
Ive done every possible combo and it just doesnt want to work.


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

remind us of your mods again, are you on the stock maf housing and injectors? If so I believe what could be happening is that the ecu sees a discrepency between air flow as determined by the maf sensor and as determined by speed-density (ie map sensor + other stuff). This is why IMO it would be better to scale the map reading and also the maf/injectors all by the same or a similar amount. It's going to be much more difficult to do it that way, but I think it will work much better in the long run. What codes is it throwing?


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_remind us of your mods again, are you on the stock maf housing and injectors? If so I believe what could be happening is that the ecu sees a discrepency between air flow as determined by the maf sensor and as determined by speed-density (ie map sensor + other stuff). This is why IMO it would be better to scale the map reading and also the maf/injectors all by the same or a similar amount. It's going to be much more difficult to do it that way, but I think it will work much better in the long run. What codes is it throwing? 

MODS:::
AEM CAI
4.3V Diode
Boost valve MBC
Yes i am on stock injectors and MAF. I can see where you are coming from with the fueling issue however others have gotten it to work without it.
Thats what i dont understand.


----------



## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

You're runnign stock s/w, right? Assuming the response of the map sensor is linear, your 4.3V diode aint gonna clamp the map signal untill ~ 18-19 psi. Stock ecu's generally aren't going to let anything past about 14.5 psi or so get past them. Your ecu is freaking out long before you are clamping the signal, I believe. You would need about a 3.3 V zener diode to clamp the map at 14.5 psi to keep the ecu from freaking. Just a thought...


----------



## Maxf31 (Oct 30, 2002)

OK, I went to an electronic store in town and I could only found some 4.3 and 4.7 v 1w diode.
Is it very important to use some 0.5 w diodes or 1 w should be fine ?
Thanks !


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halchka99* »_
I can see where you are coming from with the fueling issue however others have gotten it to work without it.
Thats what i dont understand.

But others (and I think you are specifically talking about Nebulight) have different ECU's, engine code, etc. I know many people with '03s that cannot get the boostvalve to work well. But other years it isnt a problem at all.
I honestly think you are doing damage to your car, and if I were you I would pull it off.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Maxf31)*

1 Watt will be fine, probably better=safer then the 0.5 watt


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_
But others (and I think you are specifically talking about Nebulight) have different ECU's, engine code, etc. I know many people with '03s that cannot get the boostvalve to work well. But other years it isnt a problem at all.
I honestly think you are doing damage to your car, and if I were you I would pull it off.

What do i need to not cause "harm" I am just tryin to get this to work for a bigger turbo. When i get this to work i am going to lower the boost to stock till i can get my turbo upgrade on.


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (halchka99)*

This is just my opinion, but I dont see clamping a K03 worthwhile at all.
What I do see worthwhile is testing out larger injectors with a larger maf housing and a hi-flo fuel pump on a K03, that way you know that when you upgrade just the turbo/manifold/downpipe it will work fine at the same boost levels. Then you can slowly up the boost and go from there.
I would just go in a different order. And your car bucking and dropping boost to 1psi, then 5psi, then 18psi the next, well that tells you your car is not happy. If that did it more then 2 times on my car, i would have pulled it. Just my viewpoint.


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MEDoc* »_You're runnign stock s/w, right? Assuming the response of the map sensor is linear, your 4.3V diode aint gonna clamp the map signal untill ~ 18-19 psi. 

Just because I want to know I am gonna pop a 4.7v diode on tomorrow and do a VAG run and see what the clamped PSI is. I will post my results.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

yup please let us know how it goes.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
DUDE, if you haven’t tried it yet, UNPLUG that darn N75. With it plugged in the ECU sees it, tries to use it and gets no results. (my theory) Two other people running MBCs that were bypassing the N75 had nothing but limp issue when they left the N75 pluged in. 

Is this how you run your setup? Because it's the opposite for me, if I unplug the N75 electronically, my car says no no. But if I leave it plugged in but with no vac/boost lines, the MBC works fine. I just can't get it to spike over 19 psi with only the MBC in. With the MBC inline with the N75, I can spike to 23-24. I may be trying a few diodes this weekend. If so, I'll run logs with just the GIAC chip with the MBC, then put my GIAC IBE in stock mode, put the diode in, leave the MBC at the same settings, and run the same logs (timing, boost logs). With the IBE in stock mode and the MBC in place, as soon as I get over 16psi, it goes down the 5psi and soft limp. Just mainly interested to see the difference in timing between stock chip with MBC and chipped with MBC since the boost levels should be the exact same. If I get around to doing this with drm916 this weekend, we'll post up the results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

cool! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif let us know.


----------



## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

Yes please we could use all the info.
Thanks!!


----------



## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_Is this how you run your setup? Because it's the opposite for me, if I unplug the N75 electronically, my car says no no. But if I leave it plugged in but with no vac/boost lines, the MBC works fine. 

Yeah although I did not try it plugged in. These cars are so weird with their inconsistencies.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

I agree. My car only like the boostvalve when it's set to one spot. Sometimes if I turn it up or down, I get surging. Then back to the original spot, no more surging. But I do get limp at the top of 4th sometimes. At least the setting it likes doesn't throw limp mode at the top of 3rd at the dragstrip.


----------



## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

Wow, so many problems. Strange mine works just fine. I used a 4.3v diode, no N75 (it's plugged in electrically), and a MBC. I haven't had any issues at all. I ran it at 10psi, then 15psi, then 17psi. No problems, so smooth, no surging, nothing. Stock ECU, Stock Injectors, Stock FPR, Stock MAF housing, Stock turbo.


----------



## Pass18t (Oct 18, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

You'll all probably wonder that this is my first post here, but I've been on CB5 a long time. I also didn't read all 21 pages of this thread, but I thought I would throw out that Split Second (http://www.splitsec.com/) sells a splice and play voltage clamp called a VC2 for $86. Hard clamp that is user adjustable and can be set at the factory to whatever level requested, in the case of the 18.T, 4.7v would be about ideal. Up to 4.7v, the signal tracks like normal. Can definitely help folks who get overboost limp mode from cold weather, N75 swaps, etc. APR and GIAC have enough fuel on the top end of their programs to cover a little extra boost. I haven't put one in yet, but the GIAC file I'm using with my K04 holds boost at about 1.45 bar, sometimes a tad bit higher, and I'm thinking the colder weather may push it over the boost sensor limit. I may also try a "J" N75 and I would definitely need it to make that change.


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (Pass18t)*

This thread basically was talking about clamping at one set value. Usually test to see what voltage works on your car, and buy a diode for about $0.20. Then you get a boost controller to up the boost. You can get the boost of a chip for about 1/10th the cost.


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Bump, just wondering how everyone is doing with their MAPs.


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Resurrected....
VDubbindizzy, whats up? Any good info?


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nebulight* »_Bump, just wondering how everyone is doing with their MAPs.

My experimentation is on hold for a couple of weeks. My "unofficial" wife and I are heading to Vegas this weekend to make it official.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Congrats...and goodluck


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Have fun, and Congratulations!


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## MEDoc (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MEDoc)*

It is kinda funny. Everytime I go to Vegas with my girl I am praying I dont end up married....
Too much







, there is such a thing....


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_It is kinda funny. Everytime I go to Vegas with my girl I am praying I dont end up married....
Too much







, there is such a thing....

Hahahahahah!....oh that's good














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mj6234 (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
My experimentation is on hold for a couple of weeks. My "unofficial" wife and I are heading to Vegas this weekend to make it official.









Congrats! Have fun in Vegas. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
My experimentation is on hold for a couple of weeks. My "unofficial" wife and I are heading to Vegas this weekend to make it official.









Congrats, but you couldn't convince her to wait til SEMA?


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *new 337* »_Resurrected....
VDubbindizzy, whats up? Any good info?

Not yet.







Maybe this weekend. Haven't had time and getting ready for drags this weekend. But hoping to play around with the diodes and logging on Sunday afternoon.


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## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

updates?


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (roly)*


_Quote, originally posted by *roly* »_updates?

















Oh did you mean on clamping the MAP?


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## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

oh yeah!

congrats, now she's got the clamp on your sensor!








i'm married too


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## KICKINGTI (Jan 17, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (roly)*

I know that with revo software coming out, this thread is useless, but talking about the map sensors and looking for a higher bar map, i saw momentum tuning sells them on there site, they actually sell a 3 bar map sensor, i wonder if it fits.


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## nebulight (May 17, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
















Oh did you mean on clamping the MAP?









Wow man,







she's beatiful! Congrats!! You're one lucky guy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## halchka99 (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (nebulight)*

Congrats!


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

Bump from the dead, after all it is the day after Halloween.








Question, does anyone see a problem with me tapping into the MAP signal wire and running a lead to the cockpit and having my wife monitor the voltage as I try to hold the boost at 5 psi, then 10 psi, then 15 so on and so forth?


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

Congrats man...


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## new 337 (May 22, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_Question, does anyone see a problem with me tapping into the MAP signal wire and running a lead to the cockpit and having my wife monitor the voltage as I try to hold the boost at 5 psi, then 10 psi, then 15 so on and so forth?


Datalogging! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
It should work, it might be kinda difficult to hold your boost very steady, maybe some ebrake action!
Hope your out and testing!!! Eager to see results!


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (new 337)*

Put the data in a new thread called
MAP clampers and the curious check this out...........
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1092549


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## biturbocurious (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

Bump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## biturbocurious (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VDUBNDizzy)*

Bump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BananaCo (Sep 16, 2001)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (PhatDub20v)*

so..err..back to the original topic. bump..


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## 1.8tizzle (May 22, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (BananaCo)*

WOW i must have missed this entire thread?


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## MRP2001GTi (Oct 6, 2000)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (BananaCo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BananaCo* »_so..err..back to the original topic. bump..

What do you want to know?


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## VWJETTAVW (Nov 18, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*

so do you need to cut the wires on the map sensor and then put the diode on after they are cut or would it work if you just strip the wires and wrap the diode around the wires?


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## 1.8tizzle (May 22, 2003)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (VWJETTAVW)*

You strip the wires, dont cut them. And dont just wrap it around..... solder it to the wires, you need a good connection.


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## roly (Feb 2, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (1.8tizzle)*

why not cut them?


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## warura (Sep 27, 2002)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (roly)*

Ok took me a while to read all the threads... a couple of days actually. I am an electronic eng. Ok Let me put some info that I had in mind while I was reading all these wonderfully informative trhreads....
First, to make it easier to some, clamping.. ok the voltage range is the same, only that after a certain voltage ( lets say 4.7V







) the sensor will only read 4.7V. better yet, the ecu will only read 4.7v from the sensor's signal.. ok what happens then.. well if you run a turbo capable of going higher than stock levels, lets say 23psi.. well the ecu will only be detecting the boost presure that the sensor gives at 4.7V, leting you go to what ever level you want.... ok the problem here is that, it works half way fine.. why? well the rest of the voltage scale (from 0 to 4.7) still represents on the ECU numbers to deal with a K03, its not like a standard to every turbo







even if the sensor works lineal, the ecu can make calculations based on the stock turbo.
Ok the next thing... scaling the voltage... ok there are two aproaches, one use a voltage divider, or a different MAP... ok let me put it simple... its the same thing, only that a map costs around 50-60 dollars in the usa (the GM map you guys where fuzzing about costs like 15 dll here in mexico







) and the second option is a voltage divider with a simple circuit, that can cost around 2-4 dollars.... the problem here is that all the range is scaled down.... its like messing with the fuel trims with lemming works... and we want adjustability all the RPM RANGE!!!








so after all this info you guys put out, here comes my opinion and idea I will definitly try...
Ok first let me explain what an analog to digital (AD)circuit is... it gets analgue voltage (like a range from 0 to 5V) and transforms it to a digital number (4-8-16-24 bits). So if you read 0 V then you get 0 on the exit, if you read 2.5V you get 256 (1000000) if we get a 8 bit AOD. 
Now a Digital to analgue converter (DA) works viceversa... you enter a digital number and it throws voltage on its exit... so if you input a 255 on it, you get 2.5V as output... well you get the idea








So how does this helps us...?
I have worked on some microcontroller that could help us on this issue. You could program them to interact with the DA and AD..and so making some kind of stand alone personal system... you could get all this for less than 30 dollars 
So how to make it work? well here it goes.. the way I see it we need to scale the range, to trick the ECU into seeing less boost... but if we scale with a voltage divider at 0 psi, the ecu would see vacum or less air and create problems







... well here is the trick... with the AD we read the signal from the sensor into de Microcontroller. The microcontroller will make calculations to limit the scale and just change the upper voltage range, while on the lower end make 0 psi send the real volatge that is needed at 0 psi. The microcontroller sends the info to the DA which will be conected to the ECU... Hope you guys understand me .. its kind of simple to me, but some of you dont have a good understanding on electronics... in few words, this system will make the map sensor's signal act like non linear,be the voltage we want it to be on low boost, high boost or no boost (vacum). Or even easier...







.... Let the ecu see the normal voltage scale at low boost to avoid the ecu from thinking it is seeing less than 0 psi , and let the ecu see 12 psi at high volatge while we pump 23 psi into that manifold....
Ok but there is more!!!!. Since a microcontroller has so many available ports (lets call them switches) you could use them to activate other stuff along the way if you think will be needed... like ativated extra inyectors, a N2O shot... etc... and if I hade the time I would do a computer software to program the microcontroller and be adjustable to suit everybody's needs... 
So what ya think about my idea?


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## Pass18t (Oct 18, 2003)

For all the technical content in the prior post, you miss the fact the map sensor doesn't control fueling so long as the MAF sensor is operating. The map sensor is just part of the check and balance of the system. 
I've been running a Bosch 3 bar (read, not GM) for 6 months to avoid overboost/limp/throttle cut on my setup and it works perfect. No limp, no boost deviation errors. The difference in scaling is not enough to create deviation errors or other problems.


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## AllofurVWRbelong2me (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (MRP2001GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MRP2001GTi* »_
















Oh did you mean on clamping the MAP?









Just wanted to say Belated-congrats! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Considering I wasnt a member then...
But back on topic, I wanted to know if anyone had any UPDATED pics on how to actually do this, and dont you dare tell me to search because thats how I found this thread in the first place....







The other thread I found had a DIY but with a switch, I dont need a switch Just a 4.3 diode Danny (1.8tizzle) sais hed help me out but Id like to have some pictures to back me up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Oh P.S. Bump from the dead...very dead....


_Modified by AllofurVWRbelong2me at 11:31 AM 3-16-2005_


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## AllofurVWRbelong2me (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: Clamping the MAP sensor. (AllofurVWRbelong2me)*

Pretend this has a picture of an engine bay with a T3/T4 setup in it or somthing, keep this ish at the top.............y0.


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