# Really loud tapping noise from engine.



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

*Really loud tapping noise from engine leading into engine replacement adventure*

Ok, so I just bought a 2003 Passat, 1.8T with auto trans. It has a really bad tapping sound coming from the upper engine area. Sounds like a valve/lifter noise type of tap. The previous owner told me that the engine has "No oil pressure". But the engine rods are NOT knocking. I know the difference between rod knock and valve tap. The engine runs nice and smooth. I had the car towed to my house. I know these engines have a tendency to become clogged up with oil sludge and as a result the engines develop critically low oil pressure so first thing I thought to do was to flush the oiling system. So, as soon as I got home I rigged up an inline electric fuel pump with hoses and fittings and an extra inline style filter....I then drained the engine oil and replaced it with a small amount of diesel fuel and half a quart of transmission fluid......I then removed the oil filter and attached one end of my electric fuel pump to the oil filter location....and ran the other end of the hose down the dip stick tube pushing the tube all the way down into the bottom of the oil pan and put power to the pump...Basically I cycled the fluid out of the pan, pushed it up thru the oil passages to clean out all the oil passages (I let the pump run for about 40 minutes). I removed all the cam shaft caps and the fluid was freely flowing thru them. It was then that I got the notion that the engine isn't suffering from the sludge problem. But I flushed the oil system anyways. The valve train is not 'rattling' as would be typical with extremely low oil pressure. There is a distinct singular tap repeating over and over. It is consistent at hi or low rpm and the tapping sound is ALWAYS happening. The motor runs good. All the cam lobes look fine. Someone suggested the oil pickup screen could be clogged. But if it were, wouldn't the rods be knocking as well as the entire valve train rattling? I'm kinda stumped on this one. I really don't want to drop the pan to inspect the pump and oil screen....this car is a Passat, which means the subframe would have to be removed (lot's of work). The top surface of all the lifters look good. I'm wondering if I should pull the cams out so I can get a look at the bottom side of the lifters as well as see the condition of the tops of the valve stems. 

Here's a dumb question: Are the lifters in these motors hydraulic? Could one of them be bad? Do they "pump up" with oil making zero valve lash? And is it possible that one of them are not pumping up anymore? Kinda like the hydraulic lifter in a corvette....In the Corvette you have the lifter body with a plunger and spring and a check valve and the lifter "expands" (gets taller) to take up the slack as oil pressure increases, however when this (Corvette) style lifter goes bad, the lifter fails to "pump up"...commonly referred to as a "collapsed lifter". 


Any suggestions and info is greatly appreciated.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

They are hydraulic. They could be suffering from sludge, that'd screw up a lifter really easily, and our lifters are known for being loud in normal operation so if its from the head that's a good guess. Does it run fine otherwise? Any CELs?


----------



## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

If it's coming from the chain tensioner, there's a little screen on it that could be mucked up. you can pull the tensioner and clean that, and see if that helps as well.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Yes, the engine runs fine. Fires right up with no hesitation. There are no CEL...no pending codes. Could that eliminate the possibility of a collapsed lifter?

Right now I've got all the bearing caps of the IN and EX cams loose...I'm going to torque them back down to spec....put it all back together and use a stethoscope to try to pinpoint the location.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

If the tapping sound is coming from the rear of the vc I will inspect and clean the cam timing screen.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

ryan mills said:


> If it's coming from the chain tensioner, there's a little screen on it that could be mucked up. you can pull the tensioner and clean that, and see if that helps as well.


Ok, so today I pulled off the cam chain tensioner and cleaned out its mesh filter. It wasn't too dirty. But it still wasn't as clean as it could be. I soaked it and cleaned it as best I could. I reassembled the parts onto the engine and started the car. The crazy tapping noise was almost completely gone, but it was still tapping a little bit so I guess I will buy a new chain tensioner and install it and that should fix the problem completely.

I measured oil pressure with my engine scanner (it is capable of monitoring some Real Time data information).....and the oil pressure is within specs. 

I'm going to install a new chain tensioner tomorrow and hopefully this will be the end of the problem.

One thing though, when I was monitoring the Real Time data with my scanner the code PO011 came up. 

OBDII code P0011 is Cam Shaft Over Advanced....

The crank shaft spins the timing belt and the timing belt spins the exhaust cam shaft. The exhaust camshaft spins the cam gear chain, the cam gear chain spins the intake camshaft and the intake camshaft is monitored by the camshaft position sensor......Correct?
I am wondering if the timing belt could be stretched to the point where the cam chain tensioner is not allowing the intake cam to align correctly within time with the crank. Also, when a camshaft position sensor does go bad, do they always give a false reading of the timing being too far advanced? 

How many problems do I have here:
1) I know the cam chain tensioner is bad. 
2) Is the timing belt worn out?
3)Is the Camshaft position sensor bad or is it reading correctly?

Or.............Is the bad cam chain tensioner the main cause of these other potential problems?


----------



## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

*FV-QR*

That code can show up when the tensioner is removed and reinstalled while it pumps back up with oil. Clear it, and see if it comes back. I'm not too sure how to diagnose a bad tensioner, but check the plastic guides and make sure they're not too worn. I would figure that the tensioner either works or it doesn't. Now, if that screen was a little dirty, I wonder what the oil pump pickup looks like.....


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Well....looks like I wont be buying a brand new cam chain tensioner any time soon.

I went to the VW dealer and they want $786 for the new ONE. That ain't happening.

So, I ended up going to the local Pick N Pull car recyclers and found six 1.8T engines First cct I removed had a broken lower chain guide.
The second one I pulled didn't have the two wire sensor as mine requires....(it must have been an older 1.8T) I didn't realize it till after I pulled it off.. The third one I removed looked nice and clean. all the cam bearing journals still had oil in the little channels. And I am hoping it is a good part. 

The car I got this junk yard part from had a shredded timing belt...I take that as a good sign that the car was running prior to it ending up in the JY. OR on the other hand I take it as a bad sign that the previous owner neglected proper vehicle maintenance. Either way....who knows. 

Is there a way to disassemble the cam chain tensioner? I want to take apart the bad one that's on my car. I want to see the insides of it. On this JY part I can see what appears to be a snap ring on the lower piston...the side with the small coil spring.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Nice, chain tensioner, good call :thumbup: You can get a new tensioner online for super-cheap, the price you quoted is nuts


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Gonna give this used one a try. 

I looked online and saw the prices. Many companies, which would be the best for right around $350-$400......By the best, I'm referring to quality, fitment and longevity.

Additionally, besides the cam chain tensioner kits that I looked at..... I saw some cam chain tensioner guide pads for sale.....The guide pads by themselves.....no other part....just the pads I'm not going to buy JUST the pads, but am curious as to HOW would they be installed to replace broken/worn guide pads? Is there a company that makes a cam chain tensioner equipped with adjustable guide pad mounting tabs? Just curious.


----------



## crazyquik22023 (Jun 17, 2013)

The pads just pop off and pop on. And as far as I know of no one makes a tensioner with adjustable guide pin tabs. I'm not sure what the benefit of that would be. Also check ecstuning for some quality aftermarket cam tensioners if you need one. They are anywhere from $150 to $350. Another cause of tensioner noise is a clogged oil pickup tube. A scanner is not a valid way to measure oil pressure. You need to remove the switch from the oil filter housing and install and adapter and hook up a mechanical pressure gauge. Should be above 20psi when fully warmed up at idle and increase as rpms increase. You should see around 40psi at 2000 rpms. Also if you are still getting the code for the cam timing over advanced you probably installed the intake cam a tooth off when reinstalling from replacing the tensioner. It's easy to mess up especially if you have never done one before on a VW/audi. Side note be sure to be using the correct oil. Any VW 502 spec oil will do. I personally prefer Mobil1 0-40 euroblend. :thumbup:


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

crazyquik22023 said:


> The pads just pop off and pop on. And as far as I know of no one makes a tensioner with adjustable guide pin tabs. I'm not sure what the benefit of that would be. Also check ecstuning for some quality aftermarket cam tensioners if you need one. They are anywhere from $150 to $350. Another cause of tensioner noise is a clogged oil pickup tube. A scanner is not a valid way to measure oil pressure. You need to remove the switch from the oil filter housing and install and adapter and hook up a mechanical pressure gauge. Should be above 20psi when fully warmed up at idle and increase as rpms increase. You should see around 40psi at 2000 rpms. Also if you are still getting the code for the cam timing over advanced you probably installed the intake cam a tooth off when reinstalling from replacing the tensioner. It's easy to mess up especially if you have never done one before on a VW/audi. Side note be sure to be using the correct oil. Any VW 502 spec oil will do. I personally prefer Mobil1 0-40 euroblend. :thumbup:


Tested oil pressure as mentioned above, at normal operating [email protected] idle I got 9psi on my hand held mechanical [email protected] the guage was indicating only 23psi.

Thinking my hand held guage was messed up, I tested the oil psi on my mothers Audi TT and the guage is working correctly.

One thing tho, the low oil indicator light on the dash of my car never illuminated nor did it start flashing.

Now that I know the exact oil pressure, I once again removed the vc and pulled the cam caps and looked at all the journals again except this time did more than just glance at them. I cleaned the journal surfaces, felt them for ridges/gouge marks, used a small magnifying glass to see better (I've got poor vision in one of my eyes). Also, I measured the tolerances with PlastiGuage.........sure enough the top end of the motor is DONE!!!!! The tolerances of the cam journals were WAY out of specs and 2 journals on each cam have really bad gouge marks in them. 

I'm figuring at this point that I'm just going to replace the engine. It has low oil pressure even though I did the sludge flush thing. The cams aren't usable. The head isn't usable with out repairing the cam journals which means custom ground cams will be necessary. The tapping noise was definately coming from the cam chain tensioner so, there's no telling how much long that part will last since it was getting banged around for a while. I think my most cost effective option at this point is to find another motor. 


In regards to pulling the engine out of the car (2003 Passat)........what is the preferred method??? Out the bottom or thru the top? I've never pulled this size engine out of this type of car, but I have pulled this size engine out of Jettas and Beetles. Whenever I do a motor swap on a fwd Cadillac, I drop the sub frame....whenever I do motor swap on a Chrysler 300, I pull it up out the top...both engine layouts are the same as with the Passat. So how's it done on the Passat?


----------



## crazyquik22023 (Jun 17, 2013)

1.8TTony said:


> Tested oil pressure as mentioned above, at normal operating [email protected] idle I got 9psi on my hand held mechanical [email protected] the guage was indicating only 23psi.
> 
> In regards to pulling the engine out of the car (2003 Passat)........what is the preferred method??? Out the bottom or thru the top? I've never pulled this size engine out of this type of car, but I have pulled this size engine out of Jettas and Beetles. Whenever I do a motor swap on a fwd Cadillac, I drop the sub frame....whenever I do motor swap on a Chrysler 300, I pull it up out the top...both engine layouts are the same as with the Passat. So how's it done on the Passat?


Yes that oil pressure is low. The actually warning light only comes on when it's critically low. I'm not sure the exact psi it comes on. As for pulling the engine you neither go from the top or bottom. The service carrier "radiator support" is removable on your car. So you take off the front bumper, unbolt the service carrier and remove the service carrier (radiator, headlights, core support, etc) all together. Then you can pull the engine straight out the front of the car. I would suggest just pulling the transmission with the engine as it is much easier to remove when removed from the car. While you have your "new" engine still out of the car, I would suggest replacing the timing belt/water pump and oil pickup screen.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks, I read your response..........so far within a few hours I've removed or disconnected the following:

1) grill
2) bumper cover
3) grill support
4) headlights
5) bumper
6) electrical plugins
7) hood latch
8) radiator hoses
9) transmission fluid lines
10) Radiator with core support and fan as a unit
11) turbo from exhaust manifold
12) intake manifold
13) disconnected most vacuum lines and electrical plugs from the top of the motor



Ok....how in the hell do I get the alternator off? The lower mounting bolt wont come out because it hits the fan clutch....I have a Strap Wrench to hold the fan clutch pulley but I don't have a wrench thin enough to get on the pulley nut. Is it possible....if I were to pivot the alternator away from it's mounting bracket is it possible to remove the bracket, fan clutch and alternator as a single unit? It looks pretty close, but I think if I cut down an allen wrench I can back the bolts out of the block as the bracket seperates from the engine block. 

What is the difficult part of pulling the engine out of the car seperately from the transmission? What are the benefits of pulling them out together as a unit? Is it access to the nuts/bolts? I can get the car about 2 and a half feet off the ground. 

I've got the tools called....I believe: 10 point box....I bought this tool set for a transmission swap I did a couple years ago on a 2.0 Jetta....not sure what year the Jetta was but the body style the '99-05 type.....MK4........Will I be needing these tools to remove the trans to motor bolts? Any other specialty tools needed?


Also, that damn turbo and catalytic converter are taking up alot of room....is it possible to remove these from the car with the motor still in place....and what are the chances of snapping the attachment studs?


----------



## crazyquik22023 (Jun 17, 2013)

Why do u need to remove the alternator? The only accessory you need to remove is the a/c compressor so you dont have to drain the refrigerant. As far as specialty tools the one somewhat specialty tools you need will be an m10 or m8 triple square to remove the axles from the transmission. The difficult part of removing the engine from the transmission while in the car is reaching the transmission housing to engine block bolts. It definitely can be done but I just prefer removing both the engine and transmission together. Its really just whatever way you prefer/is easier for you. If u removed the turbo from the manifold then you shouldn't need to remove anything else. What you should have done is remove the 3 nuts from the downpipe to the turbo then pull the engine out with the turbo still attached to the manifold/engine. The best way to reach the downpipe nut closest to the manifold is from underneath the car with multiple long extensions and at least one swivel/u - joint extension.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

I'm pulling the alternator off because the engine I am buying will not come with any accessory parts. So, I gotta pull all brackets and parts bolted to the block anyways.. Will I need to drop the subframe to pull the trans and motor combo together?


----------



## crazyquik22023 (Jun 17, 2013)

You can wait until the engine is out to swap the accessories but to get to the alternator remove the fan pulley by removing the 8mm Allen head bolt located behind the fan pulley. No need to drop the subframe. Just remove the hood strut and lift the hood higher or remove it completely so u don't accidentally hit it when lifting the engine mounts over the sub frame. The engine comes very close to the hood when removing it.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Well, I got the motor ready to pull out of the car. The only thing holding it in the engine bay is gravity. I ended up separating the motor from the tranny. I also reattached the turbo to the exhaust mani. I then removed the 3 nuts holding the turbo to the down pipe so now the turbo will leave the car when the motor is lifted. I can't leave the accessories attached to the motor and swap the parts over to the new engine because the company I bought the motor from has a $250 core deposit and a delivery fee, I would have to pay two delivery fees and be without the $250 core deposit. I would prefer to have the two motors sitting side by side as a visual aide to help speed along the reattachment of the bolt-on engine parts, but it's just not possible. Anyhow, I would say on a difficulty scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being most difficult, I would rate this job thus far as a 3. The passenger side of the engine bay was a little intimidating with the turbo, catalytic converter, engine starter, motor mount and a/c pump being all on that side, in the same general vicinity....but once I removed the a/c pump and its mounting bracket all that other stuff was a breeze....time consuming, but still not horrific as I was imagining. And YES!!!! Those tranny-to-engine bolts were the hardest part, but I have some wrenches that I modified (angled) from other jobs thru out the years and I found one that was perfect for those lower trans bolts...just had to jack up the motor a few inches.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

*The replacement engine*

Ok, today is friday and the replacement engine will be delivered to my house on monday. What are the things I should do to the replacement engine before I install it into the Passat. This is the first time I've actually had a 1.8T engine pulled out of a car that I own. I've pulled 1.8T's out of Jettas but those are different engine layouts. And when I pulled those motors it was to replace clutches. BUT since this is my car, I plan on atleast replacing the oil pan gasket and ALL the freeze plugs. I plan on reusing the timing belt tensioner and the tensioner adjustment wheel from my bad motor as these parts have only a couple hundred miles on them...they are basically brand new, but I will buy another T belt....it's new also, but I don't trust it. Should I clean or replace the oil pick up tube/screen? I mean, obviously I will clean it but motor I am getting has 109k miles....is that enough for the screen to be needing replacement?

One other thing I noticed: When I pulled off the pipe between the turbo and the intercooler....there was some oil in the pipe. Not alot...maybe 1/3 of a cup...is that normal or should I get another turbo also?


----------



## crazyquik22023 (Jun 17, 2013)

I've seen pickup tube's get clogged with only 50k miles on them. It all depends on what type of oil/filter has been used in the engine. FYI only use VW 502 spec oil or higher. I would replace the pickup tube regardless. It's a $25 part. And the oil pan doesn't have a gasket. It uses sealant. Cleaning the pickup tube is fine to do if you are tight on cash or something vs replacing it. And yes finding that much oil in the intercooler/pipe is normal on the 1.8t.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Ok, I will clean the oil pick up tube. Money is tight right now hence, me not waiting to get the core deposit back from the engine seller. I do have access to a 1,500 psi pressure washer (water). I think that will do the job after a good soaking in chemicals.

As for the gasket...or lack there of, crazyquick says to use a sealant....what type of sealant should I use? I HATE using silicone to seal things where there is no gasket installed. When sealing things up with sealant and no gasket...I ALWAYS use a product made by Permatex called "The Right Stuff"....it comes in a can similar to a squeeze cheese can.....you just push the nozzle tip to the side and the sealant flows out in a little bead....just like squeeze cheese. Would this Permatex product work?

And as for finding that much oil in the metal pipe...I don't know what the pipe is called....the one that connects the turbo to the intercooler, is it possible to, well I know it would be possible, but would it be beneficial to drill a hole in the bottom side of the pipe and weld a small metal tube pointing downwards to let the oil drain out of the pipe? Ofcourse, I'd make the tube long enough so that I can get access to the bottom end of it and I would cap it off when not draining the oil so as to not lose boost pressure. Maybe install a petcock valve like on a motorcycle gas tank....you know, like flip the valve open and let the oil drain for a few hours and then flip it back closed again.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Well, today I pulled the engine out of the car I removed the flywheel and bolted the motor to an engine stand. I stripped off all the bolt on parts including the oil cooler, exhaust mani w/turbo...the rest of the hoses....I pulled off the water pump and the belt tensioner and belt adjustment wheel (the timing components and water pump are almost brand new). I flipped the motor upside down, pulled off the oil pan. The pan had a crack in it beginning just under the oil filter housing and went for a distance of 3 and a half inches. I've never jacked up the motor with a jack underneath the pan. When I did lift the motor (to remove the trans bolts), I lifted it with an engine lift and I hooked the motor at the top of the head in the proper location. I think it must have been busted for a while. Anyways, I removed the oil pick up tube/screen and took it to my cousins house....he's a rancher and has alot of agriculture related equipment junk. Anyhow, he hot tanked the pickup tube for a half an hour and then I blasted it with his pressure washer. It was clogged up with sludge and chunks of what I think is blue silicone, but now the tube looks brand new!!! He also hot tanked the intake manifold the a/c bracket the alternator/fan bracket and both of the motor mount brackets as well as the long metal turbo pipe and exhaust manifold. Monday the replacement engine should be here. And I am going to take it over to his house to blast it with water.....after scrubbing it down ofcourse. I haven't even seen the motor yet, just talked to the guy at the shop that is selling it. He say's it's a good running motor, but I ain't taking his word for it. He said his employee's are going to inspect and test it to see if it's worth selling for $1,300. That's how much I will be paying for the motor. I told him, I don't mind paying that much for a good running motor, but I am going to inspect and test it myself to see if it's WORTH me buying for that much money. I have an opportunity also to purchase another engine for $1,100+tax + $89 shipping.....mileage is about the same @112xxx......


----------



## radlynx (Jan 4, 2007)

interesting topic. keep it coming.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Well, the replacement engine finally came this morning....days late!!! I cleaned it all up, installed a clean oil pickup tube. Checked cam journals and crank journals. All looks good. Replaced intake manifold gasket and the exhaust manifold gasket. I also got new O-rings for the injectors. I have it sitting in the engine bay already....I haven't connected any wires or hoses. I've only bolted the engine to the motor mounts and tranny.....but it's in there. One question tho.....at the front of the oil pan, there's a bracket and it has this weird foam doughnut shaped thing in it. How is it adjusted? By that, I mean, the bracket has three slotted mounting holes in it. It bolts onto the front of the oil pan and can be mounted high or low...about 1/2 inch of adjustment. Is this critical for proper engine alignment? Or is it used for controlling torque rotation of the engine as the vehicle accelerates? If it's for controlling torque, would an aftermarket piece be better? Poly type?I noticed the turbo x-over pipe slips into this foam doughnut thing. Whats it for and do I need to get a new foam doughnut. I don't know what it is supposed to look like when new, but it just looks worn out to me. 

I noticed a difference in one of the hoses....air passage hoses, not coolant hoses. I haven't connected ANYTHING yet, but I saw at the back of the intake manifold, there is a Y shaped splitter. This splitter has one IN and two OUT's plus some kind of (4th out) restrictor valve, you know, the kind that look like a small cone. Well, I looked at the hoses (I left intact) on my car and I can't find this restrictor piece. Can I just block it off? I'm going to have to do some research. Lucky me, my friends' girlfriend also has an '03 Passat with the same engine as mine.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

Today I got time to work on the Passat again. It's been about a week since I bolted the motor in place. Got almost everything connected this afternoon, just a few things more..........but.........I need a vacuum diagram. I need to figure out where one vacuum hose is supposed to be connected.

Underneath the intake manifold, up near the radiator bottle, there are two electrical connections. They appear to be some type of vacuum hose solenoids. The solenoid closest to the radiator bottle, that's the one I need the diagram for....the vacuum port closest to the firewall....on that solenoid, that's what I need info for.

Other than that, there only a few things I need to complete the installation of the motor.
I gotta get some new crush washers for the banjo nut that returns oil to the oil pan for the turbo. 
Still gotta reinstall the radiator with service panel....the bumper cover...the headlights.

I'm surprised how simple this motor was to install. At first I thought it was going to be a nightmare. It took me a whole day just to remove the old motor because I was labeling everything and every step of the way it was a learning process. But putting it back together, last week I bolted the motor into the engine bay in less than two hours and today I connected damn near everything, hoses, electrical, exhaust in about 6 hours. The only snags I ran into were the torque converter bolts hitting that piece of sheet metal sandwiched between the transmission and the engine block. The only thing I can think of as to how it got bent was that apparently I damaged it when tightening the torque converter bolts. Because the first of those bolts I tightened, I didn't use anything to keep the crankshaft from moving so I guess my torx socket bent it as the engine rotated from the tightening torque. 

And the other snag I ran into could have been a total disaster......it was a washer that had fallen down into the timing cover. I was trying to manually rotate the engine and it would only spin backwards. Took me a while checking things out. I ended up removing the crankshaft pulley and the lower metal timing cover and I found the washer down there in the area of the timing belt and the crank gear. I inspected the timing belt for damage and saw one of the ribs had a super small nick in the rubber...I could see the brown thread where the rubber had been scratched off. The T belt had ZERO miles on it but I bought another one to replace it anyways. As a side note, if you ever buy JUST the timing belt, you will have to count the exact number of ribs in it as there are multiple size timing belts out there. If you buy an entire timing belt kit, you wont have to count the ribs. I think the reason for the different belts have to do with different sizes of timing belt tensioner wheels. I don't know.


----------



## 1.8TTony (Oct 31, 2014)

N112 Valve.thats the part I am wondering about in my last post.


----------

