# 4Motion not really a true AWD system?



## MAMMOTH21 (Sep 20, 2010)

I went to check out a few Tiguan 4motions in my area. After talking price with the Internet Sales manager at Santa Monica VW, we couldn't come to an agreement in price. Then he proceeded to ask me if I really needed 4motion. I told him yes because I plan to take this car to the snow for snowboarding. 

He then told me how VW's 4motion isn't really a true AWD system, but more of a glorified FWD system that sends 10% of the power to the rear tires. He said that it uses a Haldex system which isn't fully AWD, but only sends more power to the rear when its needed.

I've owned two Subarus in the past and the Tiguan 4motion was supposed to be my wife's next car. It sounds like he was talking me out of the Tiguan 4motion altogether. 

From my experience, my past two subarus have been phenomenal in the snow with proper snow tires. Would I be disappointed with the Tiguan 4motion, and is what he told me true?

Main reason why I considering the Tiguan 4motion is because my wife likes the look the best of the cars I'm considering: Tiguan, Subaru Forester or Outback, Toyota Rav4, or Honda CR-V.


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## BarryT82 (Nov 13, 2005)

I just got my Tiguan, but from what I've seen they handle great in the snow. I've owned a few Quattro Audi's and they were decent in the snow, but I had a Subaru Legacy GT and it had to be the best handling car I've ever driven in the snow. I tried to get it to slide or spin and it just went right through the snow like it wasn't even there. I had the ecu flashed in it and it had 300+hp. I bought it from a friend with a blown engine and fixed it to sell. I loved the Subaru, but the trunk was really small and it only got about 18mpg.


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## DT EXP (Jun 15, 2007)

What the sales guys said is in the fact true.. the 4mo isn't a true 50-50 slit, but when your TiG rear needs it.. the 4mo will send power as needed.... 

But sounds more like the guy trying to make a Sale.. b/c the 4Mo is awesome, and if you are going through snow its nice to have...


I have FWD, but I run Blizak's and I didn't have a single issue last year.. but I live in the mid west with no hills...

Dt


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## 83Caddy16v (Jul 31, 2000)

You can get a Haldex controller for the Tig and adjust the distribution of power.

Haldex.G4.0BS/0AY


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## MAMMOTH21 (Sep 20, 2010)

83Caddy16v said:


> You can get a Haldex controller for the Tig and adjust the distribution of power.
> 
> Haldex.G4.0BS/0AY


Yikes, that's a lot of money. Would adding something like this void the warranty?


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## shawng (Jul 28, 2007)

First off what is an Internet sales manager? Sounds like some title given to someone who knows where the power button is on laptop. Secondly, someone please define true AWD. It's hard to compare when you don't know what you are comparing to.


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## DT EXP (Jun 15, 2007)

shawng said:


> First off what is an Internet sales manager? Sounds like some title given to someone who knows where the power button is on laptop. Secondly, someone please define true AWD. It's hard to compare when you don't know what you are comparing to.


True Shawng,

I should have said in my first reply that it is a true AWD by the fact it does send power to all 4 wheels, But in your normal day to day stuff its not a 50-50 slit, more like 60-40 (just throwing out number I am not sure if its 60-40)


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## BarryT82 (Nov 13, 2005)

A lot of awd cars are 3 wheel drive, not 4. Check out these YouTube videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CBVo522ca8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wqka0MHDZo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-FtWZdcOLw&feature=related


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## hmsa (Jan 20, 2003)

[No message]


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## vdubnut93 (Mar 6, 2009)

We've had our SE 4mo since Nov '08 and, while I don't really know about a "true awd" system, it definitely sends power to the wheels that need it. 2 Chicago winters with factory Pirelli's on it and we absolutely love it in the snow. Had a GREAT time doing flat spins in parking lot with 3 fresh inches on it the first winter!!!


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## Scott Evil (Aug 21, 2002)

The Tiguan's Haldex is one of the best I have driven. It is great in the snow. You can feel the real wheels powering the car. In normal driving conditions, power is supplied to the front wheels. This improves fuel economy versus running power through all four wheels all the time. The computer handles it all seemlessly, the driver benefits from this.

Most Audi's use a TORSEN system. (Subaru may as well, I don't know). With a TORSEN, some power is always going to all four wheels under normal conditions. The feel is different, more like rear drive. 

Which system is better is subjective. If you are concerned about winter driving, tires are the best investment. Blizzaks are great and so are Alpins. Any AWD system is a plus.

Keep in mind none of these systems are like a Jeep with a transfer case that allows you to lock all four wheels at the same speed (Full-time 4WD) or that has a low range.


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## MAMMOTH21 (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually my STI had the option to lock the center diff to send 50/50 power to the front/rear.

But it seems like Haldex system would suffice in the worst snow conditions with proper tires, and that is my ultimate concern. I wouldn't be in the snow without proper snow tires like Blizzaks or Alpin PA3's.

I don't know why he was trying to talk me out of the 4motion and Tiguan altogether. He did remind me a bit of Dwight Schrute in the way that he spoke.


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## tdeprenda (Jan 15, 2010)

Moral: always get what you want and are willing to pay for. It's a major purchase and you don't want to regret a daily drive, it gets old fast. My experience is that most sales people (there are a few exceptions, I'm sure) are not as knowledgeable as the buyer when it comes to specs/features. I little research goes a long way...


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## silvergc (Jun 25, 2008)

4Motion splits torque 90/10 (front/rear) under normal driving (highway speeds for example). Under accelleration (or under low traction conditions) up to 100% can be sent to the rear wheels (the Haldex system can lock by applying high pressure to the clutch plates). The Tig also has EDL to enable right-left control by using the ABS system.

So, it is a true AWD system, but not a 4WD system.


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## shawng (Jul 28, 2007)

Perhaps the sales guy was thinking if he could sway you to a FWD Tiguan at a lower price point, he could save the deal. I know there are a few FWD Tiguan owners here and they love the vehicle, but if I wanted FWD, i would have gone with the GTI, or a sports wagon. When I was a kid, I always saw the 2 WD Jeeps getting stuck it the snow and wondered why anyone in their right mind would purchase one when 4WD was available. Yes, i realize RWD and snow tires and all that stuff, and I have driven 2WD pickups which are virtually useless in the snow.

If you were to ask me which AWD system to get 10 years ago, I would have answered way different than today. I would have suggested one with brute force and solid gears to lock up. Today, however, as others have said, with computer controls, the power transfer is seamless.


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## MistaRhoi (Feb 10, 2010)

Yes, it does sound like the sales guy was trying to get a sale and not trying follow the criteria you needed your car to have. The 4Motion/Haldex4 is capable of sending up to 100% to the rear axle if needed. From a dead stop, it distributes it 50/50.

Haldex4 is a *variable AWD system* with NO locking feature, which means it's a true AWD. 

4WD is the term used for cars with the locking diffs and usually comes with the option to use lower gears for more rugged terrain.

The sole purpose for me trading in my FWD car for the 4Motion Tiguan was for the ability to go to the mountains/snow. Get your list of needs down and then bargain the price. Don't settle out of impulse or pressure from the dealer because you're the one with the payment and car. The only thing the guy you've been talking to wants is another sale under his name.


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## 83Caddy16v (Jul 31, 2000)

MAMMOTH21 said:


> Yikes, that's a lot of money. Would adding something like this void the warranty?


If it was determined that the controller caused the item under warranty claim to fail, then yes, it may very well void the warranty. I think this mod would be even more stealth than a ECU reflash set to stock mode when coming back to the dealer for service. 

Unless this controller trips a code, I'm not sure it would be detectable. I don't now much about it could be interesting with a Stage 3 setup.


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## sixandeightstringer (Nov 21, 2004)

It sounds to me like he (or you) is getting caught up in semantics. I don't give a rat's patootie if my 4MO is "true 4WD" or not; I only care what the system gives me. 

It's a matter of what's important: "features" or "benefits."

The 4MO, IME, provides excellent traction all the time - snow, rain, dry pavement - and I still get very good gas mileage for a AWD car of this size and utility. I'm not really concerned whether or not it's "truly" a traditional 4WD system or not - I just know it works for me.


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## mhzpower (Aug 16, 2010)

More and more vehicles are moving to electronically controlled four wheel drive. If you ask a rock crawler guy what is the difference, they will likely tell you that without a lockable center differential and lockable axle differentials, you don't have 4WD.

Every system has it's flaws, even full 4WD described above.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

MAMMOTH21 said:


> Actually my STI had the option to lock the center diff to send 50/50 power to the front/rear.
> 
> But it seems like Haldex system would suffice in the worst snow conditions with proper tires, and that is my ultimate concern. I wouldn't be in the snow without proper snow tires like Blizzaks or Alpin PA3's.
> 
> I don't know why he was trying to talk me out of the 4motion and Tiguan altogether. He did remind me a bit of Dwight Schrute in the way that he spoke.


Also, the STI does have a LSD up front & a Torsen rear diff also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw

Yes, it is advertisement for Subaru. But the Passat 4Motion used does have an older version of Haldex (Gen 3). 

Nonetheless, it does go farther than the CRV & Highlander.


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## WVWGBO169HW (Oct 4, 2009)

4WD can be superior to some AWD systems under certain conditions, but NOT on slick pavement, ice, or driving around corners. 
AWD gives the advantage of providing power to each wheel as it is needed, and allowing wheels to turn at different rates such as when you drive around a corner of if your tires are not exactly the same rolling radius. Like - almost always.
Take it from me, driving a 4WD down an icy, curvy, Colorado mountain pass is downright scary with front and rear axles locked together. Taking my Land Cruiser out of 4WD for my morning commute was the only way to make it to work in one piece.
AWD is superior to 4WD unless you're in really deep stuff or really off road, in low range.
I do wish the Tiguan would apply brakes to spinning wheels when I have opposite corners off the ground, though. That's also true for most 4WD systems, however.


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## NZTIGUAN (May 23, 2008)

WVWGBO169HW said:


> I do wish the Tiguan would apply brakes to spinning wheels when I have opposite corners off the ground, though. That's also true for most 4WD systems, however.


If you have the off-road electronics pack it DOES !!


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## shawng (Jul 28, 2007)

Ya, rub it in!!! Not all of us live in the lands of the privileged. I wish I had the wiring diagrams to see how they wire it up. And then the coding from your Tig to see what is different.


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## Dietmar (Sep 3, 2006)

first mistake was....

never talk to a car sales clerk. 

100% of the Tiguan is true AWD if you mean an intelligent AWD system shifting Power to where it needs it....

The "clerk" probably means that the Tiguan does not have a stupid system where all wheels are powered at all times... What do they know... when they get into their GEO Metro at the end of the day and drive home....

You find a very good comparison of systems on you tube. 

I love driving it in snow and do so a lot during Winter around Chicago area and when I take it to northern Minnessota in mid-winter for XC-Ski excursions... NEVER had any problems...

Though I have to admit that the Subaru AWD that I testdrove was very responsive as well but I think that was also to a very perky Flat Diesel Boxer engine mounted very close to the ground providing a very low center of gravity....


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## mhzpower (Aug 16, 2010)

shawng said:


> Ya, rub it in!!! Not all of us live in the lands of the privileged. I wish I had the wiring diagrams to see how they wire it up. And then the coding from your Tig to see what is different.


Yeah I would be all over that. I wonder why they didn't make it standard for 4Mo packages.

Is VW afraid that people would abuse their 4Mo or is there too much safety risk?...VW...Anyone?


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## chrishart1 (Jul 2, 2003)

I know this is an old-ish thread, but I was away for a while and this is a topic I feel strongly about.

I am confident that the Tig's AWD system is at least as good as, and very likely better than, the typical AWD system on the market in the U.S.. And I know for a fact that many CUV's have less competent AWD systems (I'm looking at you RAV4 and CR-V), as I have seen the video proof.

What I care about is how the Tig gets around in the rain and snow and how the system works when I behave like a hooligan. I can pull out of a parking lot, in the rain, with the front wheels turned and put down tons of power and the ESP/EDL/ABS systems brilliantly keep the car stable, yet allow me to get zipping down the road as quick as possible. It's awesome.

It drove me nuts when I owned asian FWD cars for years that I couldn't put down all the power when pulling out of parking lots, or in the rain. I just got ugly wheel hop. Drove me nuts, because they were really just 1-wheel-drive systems -- a joke. VW's FWD systems with EDL are much better, but you can't be a hooligan.

With the Tig I just floor it, hold on to the wheel with both hands and let the computers and Haldex do their magic. I love it.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

The rav4 has a good awd system. Works like a haldex and videos in europe show it going offroading on some pretty serious stuff

the older rav4 used a full-time awd system, the rally proven All-Trac system with optional Torsen rear LSD which was more capable than the current system


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## chrishart1 (Jul 2, 2003)

Color me surprised. Because I've seen videos online of RAV4s stuck in snow and muck that didn't look that bad.


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## mhzpower (Aug 16, 2010)

chrishart1 said:


> With the Tig I just floor it, hold on to the wheel with both hands and let the computers and Haldex do their magic. I love it.


That's true of most modern AWD. You could have the best hardware, but if the program is junk, then you got nothing. I've seen this first hand with electro-hydraulic systems.

My first experience in the snow was good. I think the Tiguan gave me enough traction on stock tires. I'm hoping for more snow this year to play a little more.

My only complaint is about the ABS. I think it's a little aggressive and needs to allow the wheels to lock up more. This would improve stopping by plowing a little.


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## chrishart1 (Jul 2, 2003)

When you lock, you lose steering control. That goes against what ESP is intended to achieve. I don't think you'll find any car maker that allows lockup in standard ABS mode. Only vehicles with modes intended for off-road use allow for this type of adjustment.

Personally, I have no interest in it, because I drive 99.9% on pavement.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

mhzpower said:


> My only complaint is about the ABS. I think it's a little aggressive and needs to allow the wheels to lock up more. This would improve stopping by plowing a little.


I do agree, it's a little too sensitive to kick in.

I do ponder if we used a "thicker" brake fluid, if it will slow down the ABS or not.

the brake fluid VW uses with the ABS/ESP hydraulic control module is a Low Viscosity DOT4. So, I am guessing, if you use a regular DOT4 fluid, it would respond slower.


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## chrishart1 (Jul 2, 2003)

Brake fluid is not a factor in how quickly the ABS activates.

The threshold of activation is controlled by the computer's programming, in response to its reading of the four hub/axle sensors. Changing ABS behavior would require reprogramming of the ESP/ABS programming.


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## sixandeightstringer (Nov 21, 2004)

Somewhat related, since you're talking about ABS - does your pedal vibrate (from ABS) if you are lightly braking and hit a bump or small pothole? I find that extremely disconcerting.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

chrishart1 said:


> Brake fluid is not a factor in how quickly the ABS activates.
> 
> The threshold of activation is controlled by the computer's programming, in response to its reading of the four hub/axle sensors. Changing ABS behavior would require reprogramming of the ESP/ABS programming.


Yes, the threshold of activation is computer controlled.

But, after that, determined by hydraulics. The ABS hydraulic controller with ESP have much smaller orifaces, which necessitates low-viscosity brake fluid-- and VW has a specific specification for it (501.14)



sixandeightstringer said:


> Somewhat related, since you're talking about ABS - does your pedal vibrate (from ABS) if you are lightly braking and hit a bump or small pothole? I find that extremely disconcerting.


Yes, very annoying imo.


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## chrishart1 (Jul 2, 2003)

The small difference in viscosity is not going to have the level of affect on ABS behavior that you desire.

You guys sound like a bunch of old pharts complaining about "all these new fangled gadgets on cars today."

I am personally grateful for fast activation of ABS on the Tig.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

chrishart1 said:


> The small difference in viscosity is not going to have the level of affect on ABS behavior that you desire.
> 
> You guys sound like a bunch of old pharts complaining about "all these new fangled gadgets on cars today."
> 
> I am personally grateful for fast activation of ABS on the Tig.


I am probably an old fart that do misses (at time) the good ol days of not having ABS brakes, and being able to threshold brake in the snow without skidding.


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## shawng (Jul 28, 2007)

I do find the threshold a bit more sensitive than my Rabbit, but I suspect it is this way because of several factors. GTI sized brakes, ESP, 4-Motion, and so on. I have had the ABS engage while braking on dry pavement and going over some bumps or gaps in the road. It is what it is. I am not complaining. It all works just fine, you just have to be aware of it. Face it, these cars are smarter and faster to respond than us.


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## chrishart1 (Jul 2, 2003)

shawng said:


> ...Face it, these cars are smarter and faster to respond than us.


Exactly!


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## mhzpower (Aug 16, 2010)

I wasn't talking about activation speed. Like all you "young" guys, I appreciate the new technology. In fact I would say that the VW abs is probably old school.

I have a friend with a 98 Pathfinder which uses a simple accelerometer to detect the wheel surface friction.

What would it take VW to use the ESP sensors to tell you that your not going to stop. Even on ICE, no abs is better than abs.

The true purpose of ABS is to maintain steering control. So why do I need ABS on all 4 wheels all the time.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

mhzpower said:


> I wasn't talking about activation speed. Like all you "young" guys, I appreciate the new technology. In fact I would say that the VW abs is probably old school.
> 
> I have a friend with a 98 Pathfinder which uses a simple accelerometer to detect the wheel surface friction.
> 
> ...


ESP uses the wheel speed sensors (which ABS uses), yaw sensor & steering angle sensors, then uses ABS to correct. ESP keeps you going in the intended direction.


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## sixandeightstringer (Nov 21, 2004)

chrishart1 said:


> You guys sound like a bunch of old pharts complaining about "all these new fangled gadgets on cars today."
> 
> I am personally grateful for fast activation of ABS on the Tig.


 I like the fast activation *in an emergency stop*, but I get slightly freaked out when the pedal vibrates under light braking when I simply hit a small bump or pothole. It feels like a temporary brake loss, which isn't good for brake confidence and could cause a more twitchy driver to slam on the pedal. I think that the ABS might be a little too sensitive, if it's activating in that situation, is all I'm saying. 

If I were truly an "old phart," I'd be totally okay with feeling detached from brake feel, as long as I believed that the car was going to stop. However, being a driver who appreciates performance - and connection to the road - I don't like it when "helpful" systems interfere with the feedback I receive when driving. 

Perhaps us old pharts will continue to enjoy our sporty SUVs - but you might feel more at home in a '78 Cadillac.


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## Adrenalyne (Apr 30, 2009)

The feeling of ABS jumping on it's horses when you hit the brake on bumpy road could be avoided. 
When you are on bumpy road remove the ESP (Switch to off!) and your ABS will not engage as rapidly and you will be feeling the braking action more than the ABS vibration ... 
This was a hint given to me by a Mechanic at VW due to the ABS ...!


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## NZTIGUAN (May 23, 2008)

Adrenalyne said:


> The feeling of ABS jumping on it's horses when you hit the brake on bumpy road could be avoided.
> When you are on bumpy road remove the ESP (Switch to off!) and your ABS will not engage as rapidly and you will be feeling the braking action more than the ABS vibration ...
> This was a hint given to me by a Mechanic at VW due to the ABS ...!


 Just remember that when you go over about 20mph (can't remember the exact figure) the ESP will switch back "ON" again anyway. Personally I only switch the ESP off when I have my off-road switched on, though I realised most people here are in NA and don't have that luxury.


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## chrishart1 (Jul 2, 2003)

sixandeightstringer said:


> ...slightly freaked out when the pedal vibrates under light braking when I simply hit a small bump or pothole.... I think that the ABS might be a little too sensitive, if it's activating in that situation...


 It's because of the ESP. That system sees a difference in front and rear axle rotation speeds with changes in pavement such as a speed bump. Such a sudden change can correlate with a loss of stability (ice, for example). And since you're on the brake at the time, the ESP tries to take control of the situation by applying ABS. 

It caught me off guard once. Every since then, I have come to expect this behavior with pavement changes.


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