# ABA all motor builds



## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

maybe i havent searched hard enough (sure thats the case lol) but i havent seen an official all motor aba thread, might also be because there isnt many of them that are actually built motors and stay N/A but i would love too see whats out there
im in the process of fully building an obd1 all motor aba 8v (planning on going itb with NOS in the future) and want to see whats out there for suggestions and ideas on my build...hope this one turns out to be a nice thread 

cheers :beer: :beer: :beer:


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## Junkyarddawg (Dec 5, 2013)

lots of people interested in this topic but not a lot of responses...yet
I started by looking at the "ABA Dynos" and you can start to get a feel for how much money you need to spend on parts to make power with one of these motors.
You will quickly start to realize that to get a really fast naturally aspirated ABA motor it has to be a max effort endeavor where fuel mileage, emission controls and creature comforts like engine smoothness, A/C and power steering are not always part of the program and premium fuel is required. This is a gray area on a lot of the stuff you read about because most people want to tell you about the power they are making but not mentioning how they hate driving a car with no A/C, rough idle and vibration for example. If you are gonna start a new thread on this topic maybe replies should include intended use such as "Emission exempt", "Emission compliant", OBD1, OBD2,"Daily commuter", "Off Road/Racecar", if all replies could include these details it will make it easier for new members to set performance goals and not end up with a car they dont enjoy anymore.
The nice thing about power adders like nitrous oxide, superchargers and turbos is that you can get the sensation of speed and power without removing all the comfort and convenience of a daily driver car.
I do not profess to be any word of authority on these motors, and I am not trying to "Sell anything", but have a few of these cars and enjoy the reliability, fuel efficiency and performance they can deliver in both naturally aspirated and forced induction variants.
Unfortunately I dont have any dyno results for either car at this time but can offer subjective advice regarding the addons I have implemented and the results they have had on performance and drivability...

1996 Jetta MK3 2.0ABA Automatic 01M, 158K Miles, A/C,P/S, Daily commuter, 28-33MPG, 87 octane 
OBD2 engine and management, KAT,check engine light works and never comes on while driving, OEM Idle quality, Stock Engine
Add ons
Coolant flange, Valve job, OEM metal Head gasket and head bolts
Cold air intake, 2.25" Kat back exhaust w/flowmaster 40, TT OBD2 NA computer chip
Fun and efficient driver, will move pretty good if you floor it. Maybe 100 WHP 
The computer chip was "By Far" the most noticeable performance improvement I put on the car so far.
Hope this helps


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

yea i couldnt agree more these cars are the best dailyable cars there are in my opinion* they get great gas mileage, ive owned 3 mk3 abas and there wasnt a day that went by without me beating the hell out of them! and theyll keep you entertained amongst all that.... theyre not your typical singlegingle motor 
that being said that sounds like a clean daily driver you got there and i had a very similar car not too long ago (she was a hooptie tho check engine light on with various codes-o2 sensor 1 and 2 no communication- egr - SAI- and i think thats all) but i did a dyno run at my school lincoln technical institute (we have a nice mustang dyno) and came out with 110whp and 120wtq
-big cold air filter(stock rubber piping to throttle body) held her up high and far from the motor with what better than zipties!
-deleted EGR and SAI
-open to atmosphere PCV
-stock everything else
-wasnt expecting much gains out of those lol "mods" but wanted to see how shed run and she ran like a champ ! even managed a low 16 sec 1/4 run on the dyno with no second gear (baddd syncro never caught it) went 1st 3rd 4th...i put on the tt chip too and didnt feel a power gain but a way smoother ride better throttle response and smoother idle which was wierd but no compliants, too bad she crapped out before i could give her a dyno run to see the results =/


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151172612617742&set=vb.524772741&type=2&theater

idk if you can open the link and watch the video but its an in car dyno run with no results posted...1st 3rd 4th, she was pulling in 4th pretty nicely


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

look at tdog74/911-fan &hurt both got over 140whp with a little 8v which is crazy considering the most ur gonna get daily driver spec (without tearing into the head) is like 120whp lol!

i learned my lesson with the 2.0, upgraded my 268/260 for a 270 iwth hd sprigns (350 dollars!) and barely any diff.. if anything less willing to rev high.. worse idle..
i think ill stick to the honda b18c if i want a performance 4 cylinder or maybe a b20 vtec

unless u can live with the 8vs performance level being so low (i can cus its my daily not a race car!!) just remember you gotta spend a lot to make lots of hp with NA.. boost is another story, look at some of the 8v turbo or supercharer builds. crazy hp numbers on stock engines.. bfi made 260whp with a STOCK HEAD!!!


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

There have been some threads in the past on building a high performance 8v with out braking the bank but unfortunately not all the info was credible. 

I know tdogg74's data was up to date, credible, reliable too. If your looking for more credible dyno charts and go fast parts scientific rabbit has some for the 2.0 http://scientificrabbit.com/node/27


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## leon whalen (May 28, 2007)

ABA motors are one of VW's best motors in my opinion. if you are looking for all motor streetable power, you should consider an ABA16V. buy a complete 2lt 16v and then call BBM and ask what parts you need to buy from them to put it together with your ABA. An aba16v with stock cams, stock manifold and downpipe T.T. aba16v chip, 2.25 cat back exhaust will make almost as much power as an aba8v with ported head, big'ish street cam, chip, header, 2.25 exhaust and short runner intake plenum. but the 16v conversion will cost a lot less and you can now start adding bolt on's for more power, where as the 8v is just about topped out in it's power gains.


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

leon whalen said:


> ABA motors are one of VW's best motors in my opinion. if you are looking for all motor streetable power, you should consider an ABA16V. buy a complete 2lt 16v and then call BBM and ask what parts you need to buy from them to put it together with your ABA. An aba16v with stock cams, stock manifold and downpipe T.T. aba16v chip, 2.25 cat back exhaust will make almost as much power as an aba8v with ported head, big'ish street cam, chip, header, 2.25 exhaust and short runner intake plenum. but the 16v conversion will cost a lot less and you can now start adding bolt on's for more power, where as the 8v is just about topped out in it's power gains.


if you put a 16v head on a aba you drop the compression to like 8.5:1.. so u gotta get a 700 dollar piston set too


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## leon whalen (May 28, 2007)

My Big said:


> if you put a 16v head on a aba you drop the compression to like 8.5:1.. so u gotta get a 700 dollar piston set too



No......Use the 9a pistons and have your block decked 70thow and you have 11:1 comp. way cheaper than buying pistons. That is why i said to buy a complete 9a & call BBM, they will tell you what you need to do and save me a bunch of typing.


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

leon whalen said:


> No......Use the 9a pistons and have your block decked 70thow and you have 11:1 comp. way cheaper than buying pistons. That is why i said to buy a complete 9a & call BBM, they will tell you what you need to do and save me a bunch of typing.


the block decked? or the head? im interested in the 16v swap for my new 2.0 8v. the 9a is the 2.0, right.. found in b3 passat, 90-92 golf/jetta? and 2.0 Scirocco?


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## leon whalen (May 28, 2007)

My Big said:


> the block decked? or the head? im interested in the 16v swap for my new 2.0 8v. the 9a is the 2.0, right.. found in b3 passat, 90-92 golf/jetta? and 2.0 Scirocco?



deck the block.. yes 9a is 2.0. there was no 2.0 Scirocco. they were all 1.8


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

the 16v head with an aba bottom end is a great motor one of my favs, never seen one in person or been able to drive one but one day id like to put together a monster 16v...the 8v head is just so cheap to work with and yes N/A wise you cant hope for much on the high end horsepower but the low end torque is lovely (better than almost any honda single cam and most dualies too) and being that the motor doesnt weigh alot its alot more fun of a drive on the " daily/street car level " while being good on gas and excellent in the corners....im already highly invested in my aba build no turning back even if i wanted too lol ! but i really cant wait to put this together shell be a clean 8v thats for sure


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

i thought decking the block would affect the stroke and possibly lead to valve/piston interference ...any idea if milling the block (just enough to clean the gasket sealing surface) is a good idea on a stock stroke mk3 aba (1994) if any one has done it measurements would be greatly appreciated ! :beer:


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

2.0mk3jetta said:


> the 16v head with an aba bottom end is a great motor one of my favs, never seen one in person or been able to drive one but one day id like to put together a monster 16v...the 8v head is just so cheap to work with and yes N/A wise you cant hope for much on the high end horsepower but the low end torque is lovely (better than almost any honda single cam and most dualies too) and being that the motor doesnt weigh alot its alot more fun of a drive on the " daily/street car level " while being good on gas and excellent in the corners....im already highly invested in my aba build no turning back even if i wanted too lol ! but i really cant wait to put this together shell be a clean 8v thats for sure





2.0mk3jetta said:


> i thought decking the block would affect the stroke and possibly lead to valve/piston interference ...any idea if milling the block (just enough to clean the gasket sealing surface) is a good idea on a stock stroke mk3 aba (1994) if any one has done it measurements would be greatly appreciated ! :beer:


watch it with the Honda talk, man! Honda is an excellent car company.. their SOHC engines are a pleasure to drive and ANY stock DOHC Honda released in America will crap all over any modded 8v in a straight line, even if youve got more than 1k in the 8v.. problem with the 8v is the flow. 16v is a good idea. i want a 16v real bad.

milling the head .040 will up your compression to 10.75:1 :thumbup:


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

My Big said:


> watch it with the Honda talk, man! Honda is an excellent car company.. their SOHC engines are a pleasure to drive and ANY stock DOHC Honda released in America will crap all over any modded 8v in a straight line, even if youve got more than 1k in the 8v.. problem with the 8v is the flow. 16v is a good idea. i want a 16v real bad.
> 
> milling the head .040 will up your compression to 10.75:1 :thumbup:


lol didnt mean anything by it just saying their low end torque is usually pretty loww, some sad numbers posted from great engines with nice high end hp.. honda makes a high revving high hp motor they make beast engines no doubt about it...but drive our vdubs and we see why we purchased the german "ppls car" lol way more entertaining and enjoyable to own on the daily

and yea was thinking of taking a little off the head and block just enough to make it perfectly straight and true for a perfect seal...im ordering the JE 10.5cr pistons 83.5 bore so it will be a taller piston i dont wana get too close :banghead: banggg valve hits the piston lol knock on wood thoo


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

2.0mk3jetta said:


> lol didnt mean anything by it just saying their low end torque is usually pretty loww, some sad numbers posted from great engines with nice high end hp.. honda makes a high revving high hp motor they make beast engines no doubt about it...but drive our vdubs and we see why we purchased the german "ppls car" lol way more entertaining and enjoyable to own on the daily
> 
> and yea was thinking of taking a little off the head and block just enough to make it perfectly straight and true for a perfect seal...im ordering the JE 10.5cr pistons 83.5 bore so it will be a taller piston i dont wana get too close :banghead: banggg valve hits the piston lol knock on wood thoo


dont deck the block, just deck the head. you can do 040" for 10.75:1 compression. But people have done 050" without trouble. a headgasket will take care of any abnormalitys.. and if you want even more compression, talk to BFI. they sell headgaskets that up your compression 0.5!!
then get a ported and polished cylinder head for more airflow. Hd springs, bigger valves, tt tuning sells 42mm/35mm sets. then get a SRI intake manifold. then get a big cam. 276 or 288. then a good chip, C2/BFI.. a full obx header-back 2.5" exhaust to finish it off.. you can make like 130whp at least. but then the trans becomes a weak point with poor gearing for a all out build.. you can get a 02a VR6 trans and use a g60/passat 16v bellhousing and end up with a great geared trans. or get a old 16v 020 trans like from a 16v rabbit or jetta..

have you ever driven a B series Honda? theyre a pleasure!! A stock GS-R 170hp and 134tq. The numbers may be made high in the RPM range but they're still high HP/TQ and coupled with a close ratio trans they rip. My B18c is freshly rebuilt and has Type R cams, a full headerback exhaust, and a intake and a Type R chipped ECU. I beat a 8v neuspeed s/c in the 1/4 (15.5 to 14.0), and i chirp into 3rd every time!!


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

My Big said:


> dont deck the block, just deck the head. you can do 040" for 10.75:1 compression. But people have done 050" without trouble. a headgasket will take care of any abnormalitys.. and if you want even more compression, talk to BFI. they sell headgaskets that up your compression 0.5!!
> then get a ported and polished cylinder head for more airflow. Hd springs, bigger valves, tt tuning sells 42mm/35mm sets. then get a SRI intake manifold. then get a big cam. 276 or 288. then a good chip, C2/BFI.. a full obx header-back 2.5" exhaust to finish it off.. you can make like 130whp at least. but then the trans becomes a weak point with poor gearing for a all out build.. you can get a 02a VR6 trans and use a g60/passat 16v bellhousing and end up with a great geared trans. or get a old 16v 020 trans like from a 16v rabbit or jetta..
> 
> have you ever driven a B series Honda? theyre a pleasure!! A stock GS-R 170hp and 134tq. The numbers may be made high in the RPM range but they're still high HP/TQ and coupled with a close ratio trans they rip. My B18c is freshly rebuilt and has Type R cams, a full headerback exhaust, and a intake and a Type R chipped ECU. I beat a 8v neuspeed s/c in the 1/4 (15.5 to 14.0), and i chirp into 3rd every time!!


yea being told not to deck the block often but i see it done on many other engine builds(havent seen it on an ABA yet tho)...and im hoping for 140 hp 160 tq range (i know thats reallyyy high hopes but im putting alot into this motor) so well see whats up when shes together i guess lol 

yea hondas are faster all day prob the best 4cyl company out there kinda jealous cuz theyre mostly cheaper to maintain and upgrade too but as far as handling and comfort are concerned i really could never own one... ive done 90mph 100mph with family in the car while rushing to get places in my mk3 n they would say nothing lol (topped my 2.0 out at 130 on a downhill with my boy he wasnt complaining at all lol) doing 80 in a honda and it feels like something might come loose over 100 they sound reall sketchy even the drivers thinking about letting off lol(stock for stock)


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

My Big said:


> dont deck the block, just deck the head. you can do 040" for 10.75:1 compression. But people have done 050" without trouble. a headgasket will take care of any abnormalitys.. and if you want even more compression, talk to BFI. they sell headgaskets that up your compression 0.5!!
> then get a ported and polished cylinder head for more airflow. Hd springs, bigger valves, tt tuning sells 42mm/35mm sets. then get a SRI intake manifold. then get a big cam. 276 or 288. then a good chip, C2/BFI.. a full obx header-back 2.5" exhaust to finish it off.. you can make like 130whp at least. but then the trans becomes a weak point with poor gearing for a all out build.. you can get a 02a VR6 trans and use a g60/passat 16v bellhousing and end up with a great geared trans. or get a old 16v 020 trans like from a 16v rabbit or jetta..
> 
> have you ever driven a B series Honda? theyre a pleasure!! A stock GS-R 170hp and 134tq. The numbers may be made high in the RPM range but they're still high HP/TQ and coupled with a close ratio trans they rip. My B18c is freshly rebuilt and has Type R cams, a full headerback exhaust, and a intake and a Type R chipped ECU. I beat a 8v neuspeed s/c in the 1/4 (15.5 to 14.0), and i chirp into 3rd every time!!


hondas are my favorite burnout cars lol deff a fun drive on that note and no better feeling than wen 3rd gear chirps (i had reallyy bald tires once in my aba so in the rain 3rd would chirp and id be hyped about that lmfaoo)


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Ill respond to this layer tonite at work.


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

2.0mk3jetta said:


> yea being told not to deck the block often but i see it done on many other engine builds(havent seen it on an ABA yet tho)...and im hoping for 140 hp 160 tq range (i know thats reallyyy high hopes but im putting alot into this motor) so well see whats up when shes together i guess lol


140whp is alot for an ABA if you stay naturally aspirated, your gonna need a huge cam, a lri, a very nice done up cylinderhead with high compression, and all the supporting mods.. go 16v or s/c or turbo. a neuspeed s/c is only 1500 and you would have 150whp right outta the box with a smaller pulley, cam and exhaust too lol


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## 2.0mk3jetta (Jul 17, 2013)

My Big said:


> 140whp is alot for an ABA if you stay naturally aspirated, your gonna need a huge cam, a lri, a very nice done up cylinderhead with high compression, and all the supporting mods.. go 16v or s/c or turbo. a neuspeed s/c is only 1500 and you would have 150whp right outta the box with a smaller pulley, cam and exhaust too lol


yea i just want to beef up the motor and run it n/a for a while (going to be my daily driver) then i would like to go itb and nos with watermeth later on (im already invested in all motor 8v aba lol not turning back, 16v aba block is deff the way to go but i didnt go that way...and i need my car on the road lol asap


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## MahTrek=] (Nov 6, 2008)

After how many times all of this has been covered, you would think there would be less misinformation spread around in here. 

I won't pretend that it isn't spendy to build an all motor aba. But if you are resourceful, you can save a lot of money and have a very fun car to drive. 

A 276* isn't a huge cam _at all._ Even with a cam specific chip tune they idle just fine and are extremely driveable. With all your bolt ons, a well built head/reputable headwork, and a good chip tune 135whp isn't that hard to reach (a good sri is key here.) A usdm b16(a2,a3,etc) all have 160hp, 111tq or so. That's around 135ish at the wheels. Same as a decently modded aba, except an aba will have loads more tq. 

Even if you stay hydrolifter and go with a 298*, big valves, ITB's, the 'works' and run it on standalone it will still be a fine driver, and fast. 

There's a BUNCH of trans options too, ranging from looong gear set to super short ones. 

It all depends on what you're looking for. Some people want more power for their money. And that's awesome, turbo it! However some people want to be more unique and build an all motor single cam 8 valve that makes 170+ at the flywheel.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I will just say this, for the price you spend on 140whp NA, you could have WELL over 200whp for half the price. 

Food for thought.


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

911_fan said:


> I will just say this, for the price you spend on 140whp NA, you could have WELL over 200whp for half the price.
> 
> Food for thought.


i agree this is why im not bothering to get a hd springs in my new 2.0.. just throwing in a tt266* and calling it done until the 16v engine im building is done.. people that spend 5k on a NA 8v just to have 150whp are insane. no offense 911_fann. ive only spent about 1.5k so far on this build and i have a rebuiltt obd1 block on the engine stand with 9a pistons, a 1.8 16v head with tt 276 cams, with 2.0 manifold with pass side tb so i can have the stock airbox (more power less noise = oem+) and i have the bbm dizzy and fuel rail, just gotta get some more parts.. gl getting that same power outta a aba na for under 2k NA!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I only spent $2000 total on my build over the years. I just got good deals, hookups, and found great prices on used parts.


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

911_fan said:


> I only spent $2000 total on my build over the years. I just got good deals, hookups, and found great prices on used parts.


holy cow, that's wild!!! More power to ya man, but im sure you get what im sayin. like..with 1k you could get a spa turbo kit and have 160whp. but just my opinion ya know.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

That was exactly my point. You can get a $1500 kit from any one of the boutique shops, bolt it on a completely stock engine, and get so much more power than practically ANY NA build. Even a non-intercooled 6psi will make more power and be completely daily drivable. 160whp in an NA motor? I guess it depends on your thresh hold for pain and suffering.

The biggest savings on my old rig was what I paid for the head. I saw it here in the classifieds and patiently waited for the price to drop to $400 shipped. Over $1000 worth of headwork alone, not counting all the shipping costs to/from Germany. That head was magic. The other break I had was the manifolds. Greg of HKK/SVI is a good friend of mine.


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## vw88 (Jul 29, 2011)

does this count. 1.8l PL 16v block with 8v ABA head. ?

these combined give you a really High CR. like 14.5:1. i had a little milling done. so i should be at 15:1. each cylinder was making almost 260PSI. one made 270PSI.

i'm running R1 bike carbs on this. should make almost 200HP. on 108 octane fuel!

<a href="http://s200.photobucket.com/user/PTPMowns/media/IMG_4072_zpsdb506783.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/PTPMowns/IMG_4072_zpsdb506783.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_4072_zpsdb506783.jpg"/></a>


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Head ported? Which cam profile you going with?


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## MahTrek=] (Nov 6, 2008)

911_fan said:


> Head ported? Which cam profile you going with?


X2! Sounds fun.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

Here is a good thread and motor development to follow through its progression. He does a good job of posting the mods between each year(s) and the power it made along the way.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4310834


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## vw88 (Jul 29, 2011)

911_fan said:


> Head ported? Which cam profile you going with?


on this engine. no head porting. the other engine i'm building will be. i'm building another one of these as a "spare"....

i'm going to run a 276 cam.:thumb up: 

my engine should be running soon. getting a carb manifold made up here soon. and getting my MSD ignition all set up!


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## MahTrek=] (Nov 6, 2008)

vw88 said:


> on this engine. no head porting. the other engine i'm building will be. i'm building another one of these as a "spare"....
> 
> i'm going to run a 276 cam.:thumb up:
> 
> my engine should be running soon. getting a carb manifold made up here soon. and getting my MSD ignition all set up!


Why would you do all that work and run a super high cr but not port the head?


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## vw88 (Jul 29, 2011)

MahTrek=] said:


> Why would you do all that work and run a super high cr but not port the head?


i don't see how you call it all this "work" i have three of everything laying around. this is experimentation, to see what i like best. if the head needs ported all i have to to is take another head to my machinist. get it done. slap the valvetrain in. and get a new head gasket. not that much "work". 

i'm not looking to drag race. and beat times, or win. i'm looking to have a fun car i can take out on the weekends. and maybe do some auto-x.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

In order to save you time, effort, and beer, Im going to be straight up and tell you that you are using the wrong head as a starting platform for a 200hp goal. ABA heads flow like garbage. If you are going to dump money into an 8v head, use a 1.8L. A lot more efficient ported. But to comment on your lack of port flowing, and a 276* cam, you arent going to get anywhere NEAR the 200hp mark. 

A friend on here had:

Ported head, bench flowed - [email protected] 28inches water .500 lift
Puma Racing 45mm ITB's
Megasquirt N Spark Standalone ECU
315 cc/min (30lb/hr) Siemens-Deka Injectors
TT 276 Camshaft
TT H.D double valve springs
Ferrera undercut intake and exhaust valves
Unorthodox Racing Crank pulley
SuperSprint Header 4 - 2 -1

And he only turned 132whp/121wtq. Thats only about 144hp at the crank. My old car blew him away with a 288* cam and a custom intake manifold by 10whp. 

He later stepped up to this:

ABA Block - bored to 83mm - new displacement 2008cc
12:1 forged JE Pistons
Arrow precision forged connecting rods
Kent Cams 293 / 295 camshafts
Autotech 20v Timing gear
Lightened and balanced intermediate shaft
Eurospec forged, knifedged, balanced and journal drilled race crankshaft
MegaSquirt N Spark Standalone ECU
Stock VW AEB 20v head (1998 Passat / Audi A4) - valves seats were unshrouded
Supertech SS intake/exhaust valves, nitrided, undercut and swirl polished
Supertech Ti valve retainers
Supertech Valve springs
16v Autotech aluminum lightened VW intermediate shaft gear.
16v Crank timing gear for timing belt
Unorthodox Racing crank pulley shaved to line up with other gears
Custom DCOE intake manifold using European VW ADR intake manifold
Custom PWR Aluminum radiator
Custom SPAL radiator fans and shroud
NGP 16v Spark plug wires
NGK PFR7B spark plugs
380cc/min (36lb/hr) Bosch "Genesis" Fuel Injectors

And got 193whp/140wtq. Thats about 209hp to the crank. And thousands of dollars.


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## leon whalen (May 28, 2007)

911_fan said:


> In order to save you time, effort, and beer, Im going to be straight up and tell you that you are using the wrong head as a starting platform for a 200hp goal. ABA heads flow like garbage. If you are going to dump money into an 8v head, use a 1.8L. A lot more efficient ported. But to comment on your lack of port flowing, and a 276* cam, you arent going to get anywhere NEAR the 200hp mark.
> 
> A friend on here had:
> 
> ...



what % are you using to calculate drive train loss ?


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## MahTrek=] (Nov 6, 2008)

vw88 said:


> i don't see how you call it all this "work" i have three of everything laying around. this is experimentation, to see what i like best. if the head needs ported all i have to to is take another head to my machinist. get it done. slap the valvetrain in. and get a new head gasket. not that much "work".
> 
> i'm not looking to drag race. and beat times, or win. i'm looking to have a fun car i can take out on the weekends. and maybe do some auto-x.


Take it easy brother, I'm not taking shots at you. Just asking questions is all. Should be fun to drive regardless of the power it makes. :thumbup: 

Travis, I'm assuming you're talking about wolf's car? That was a fun build to read through. It sounded like a monster in the videos. Anyways, if he made 193whp and only 209 at the crank isnt that roughly an 8% drivetrain loss? I was under the impression that more was lost putting power to the wheels. I could be wrong, I'm always learning something new lol. I dont remember what trans he was using either...but if it was an 02a wouldnt that mean he lost even more to the wheels due to thicker gears?


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## MahTrek=] (Nov 6, 2008)

leon whalen said:


> what % are you using to calculate drive train loss ?


Beat me to it.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I calculated using 8.25%. I've found that its the most accurate with an 020/3rd gear dyno pull.


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## leon whalen (May 28, 2007)

911_fan said:


> I calculated using 8.25%. I've found that its the most accurate with an 020/3rd gear dyno pull.


so that would put your 148whp aba at about 160chp ?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Yes. 

But in retrospect, I suppose that figure would only apply to whichever dyno you used. I just always stuck with that % value whenever I guestimated things.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

Did some searching past reputable build threads. Found 2 different builds by same owner.

Sure its possible for a VW 8 valve to make 190HP at the crank. Here is a 1.6 that makes that much power. http://www.scientificrabbit.com/node/5
Granted this is NOT a street motor. As mentioned already 180 HP as a street motor isn't really too practical but can be done.

Small gains can be had as bolt-ons http://www.scientificrabbit.com/node/27


Known Good tested combinations -
Motor details: 147 HP at crank

95 ABA shortblock. Eurospec 8v solid lifter head, shaved .030" for ~10.6:1 compression, depending on who you talk to. Schrick 280 cam, "euro" cis, matchported-to-head intake manifold with an A2 throttle body, knock sensor ignition out of an 86 GTI, TT adj cam gear(which is *key* to this motor and that torque figure-more on that in a minute). Brospeed header(fits the tallblock just fine) breathing into a 2.25" TT exhaust with Borla muffler. Lots more to the car but that's what makes the power.

Now, about that TT adj cam gear.....the 280 cam wants to rev into the 7000rpm range. It will do so happily and feels pretty good. The butt dyno would be happy. However, track times were showing that car was infact slower than last year when I was running a Schrick 274. I wanted a little more, and was getting a little less. I realized that the stock intake manifold, stock valve sizes, etc were not going to allow a high compression 2 liter to breathe as far into the rpm range as the cam wanted. So I started advancing the cam timing, trying to move the power range of the cam into an rpm range that the motor would be happy with. I had to make peak power before the breathing restrictions came into play. The more I advanced it, the faster I went at the track. I settled on 4 deg of advance after a few nights of test n tune, and this is how I ran it at the dyno today. Even with the big cam, this motor makes rather generous mid range torque. In fact, the peak torque #s were around 4500-5000. It's not even a torque curve, more like a flat line. It's making these torque #s from around 3000rpms. Peak hp was slightly higher at 6200rpm range.



160WHP stock 2.0 ABA bottom end with Sold lifter counter flow eurospec head, and ITBS
http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthr...-2L-8v-on-ITBs...

Thanks guys. I can say that it's vindication for being stubborn and true to my 8v cause. Of course other motors would make more hp with the same amount of developement, but stepping back and looking at it, those 5000hp V8s that run 300+ mph in the quarter are not running anymore valves per cylinder. And to keep it more reasonable, those 500hp street driven 'vettes and Mustangs aren't using any more valves either. New ones are, but there's 30 years of them that don't....

Here's the engine specs.....first and foremost, I want to point out that this is a stock ABA bottom end. No pistons, no overbore, no ARP, just a low mileage junkyard bottom end. It's a great foundation.

Of course, that's about it for stock parts. Capping that stock ABA bottom end is a Eurospec head that I bought used and had rebuilt with a 5 angle valve job, stock valve sizes, and had it skimmed .030" for a bit more compression.Depending on which starting point you use, it's ~10.5-10.75. Never cc'd it. Stock valve sizes. I match ported a DCOE manifold to the head(ugh, 10 hrs into the that simple casting....), added the ITBs and the Delta cam. Interestingly, I don't know the actual specs on the cam. So it goes with borrowed and used parts It's rumored to offer 285deg of duration at .050. Compared to the TT306, which offers 265 deg duration at .050, it's big. Dunno how big, exactly.

It breathes through a TT race header with 1 5/8" primaries into a TT2.25" exhausts with a Borla. No resonators, cat, etc. The MegaSquirt does it's deal through a set of Ford red top #30 inj, which are just about maxed when it comes to duty cycle. My datalogs(nice feature on a cheapo programmable efi, no?). My ignition is a factory knock sensing ignition from an 85 8v GTI running 12deg advance at idle. TT cam gear is set at +4 as this is where the dyno says it makes the most tq vs hp. I still drive this to work on occasion, so it's gotta have some street manners. You can retard for higher hp #s, but the tq falls off too fast to be worth it. What else.......close ratio gearbox, a 2H, with a Quaiffe. H&R race springs, cheapy Tokico's. There's better track times with chassis tuning. She's basically un developed in that area.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Don't know if you found this one or not.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4643228-The-Thread-Build-(BuildUp-)
Will hopefully have a dyno this spring.


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## jamesw16 (May 10, 2015)

My Big said:


> watch it with the Honda talk, man! Honda is an excellent car company.. their SOHC engines are a pleasure to drive and ANY stock DOHC Honda released in America will crap all over any modded 8v in a straight line, even if youve got more than 1k in the 8v.. problem with the 8v is the flow. 16v is a good idea. i want a 16v real bad.
> 
> milling the head .040 will up your compression to 10.75:1 :thumbup:


Yeah but vw kept their same design for ever and hondas valves SUCK.... period. They do good in hp applications but pack low end so then in return every person who drives it tends to rev high just to get a speed feel. My 4g93 is better than 90% of the hondas ive owned in both low and high end except my modded b18 was one of my favorites... just hondas valves wear down excessively to higher revs, my aba barely ever goes passed 4k and a b16 has to get full revs to pass yet i have 2-3 k in an aba to work with..... plain and simple honda had more aggressive valvetrain and cam lobes but lets equal the playing field in adding a cam and port heads slightly and ecu to tune new cam and i assure you the aba will shine like a honda...... japanese can just tune better than germans  
i fully intend on building an all aba motor till i get what i need to go 16v in later years.
what thing thatll help is deleting that crappy ac and egr and just removing unnecessary crap. My b18b was stripped to race shell, and engine bay cleaned and stripped on stock internals and aftermarket wires and dist. And full2.5 aluminized mandrel piping on a racing 4-1 header and it was so mean, the exhaust freed up the torque and easily would paunch to 40mph in first and chirp through 2nd, the stock internals just hate the beatings, i noticed lifters getting worse quicker than even my 40 chargers lifters


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## URIN 2ND (Oct 29, 2001)

I thought I'd necro this and add my build to the list.

First off, you're comparing more modern DOHC Honda engines to SOHC VW engines designed in the early 70's?! :screwy: That's just all sorts of derp.

Second...you have to realize you're building on VW's low-end base model economy engine. It won't ever be a supercar engine.

That said - I am currently "building" a mild ABA. I don't even consider it a "build" really as all the hard parts are stock. I did decide, however, that I was staying N/A. This was for two main reasons.

1), I have had plenty of cars that made good power, but it was annoying having to always feather the throttle, unable to drive the car hard because you'd spin the tires everywhere. I missed having a car that I can really hammer on, and drive at 9/10ths. It really is a lot more fun to drive a slower car fast, than it is to drive a faster car slow.

2), you have to think about the chassis the engine is going in. The ABA's output hasn't changed much since it was released here in 1993; and even then, it didn't make much more power than the Mk2's of 1985. Since 1985, though, cars have gotten a lot heavier. I'm putting this engine in a Mk1 Scirocco that will have a built suspension, sticky tires, and weigh about 2,000 lbs wet. Mk3's weighed in close to 3,000 lbs. Going back to the Honda thing - a B16 or B18 swap was considered quick in the day, even with only 160-170 crank HP - the same as a bolt on PL or 9A, or a semi-built ABA would make - but they were being put into 2,000 lb CRX's and 2,250 lb Civics. Hell, even the 130hp DOHC ZC was quick in a CRX. Which is pretty close to an ABA in a Rabbit.

OK, enough of that. My current project...



URIN 2ND said:


> Orange = I already have it.
> 
> *ENGINE/DRIVELINE:*
> OBD1 ABA
> ...



...I reckon it will make around 135 wheel HP, maybe a little more. And in this car, it would take an awful lot to keep up with it on a tight course. Big power isn't everything. I have a 300whp RWD car in my driveway that wouldn't stand an ice cube's chance in hell of keeping up with this 135whp Scirocco if there are any turns involved. :wave:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I would be shocked if it turned over 125whp with a stock intake manifold, untouched head ports and a simple TT can tune. The compression bump will help regain your low-end loss from the 276*, but without any real head work, you will be hard-pressed to reach the numbers you want. Of course, all dyno's are different and also depends on the operator. 

This is what it took for me to hit 135whp on a very low-reading dyno...probably would have been 140+ on a Dynojet. 

Dyno: Dyno Dynamics 
Stock OBDII 2.0 liter block  
VW OEM Windage tray 
TM Tuning “Stage 6.2" CNC Ported & Polished OBDI head  Stock size valve, undercut with 3-angle grind  Decked .040" for a 10.75:1 compression ratio  
Neuspeed adjustable cam gear
 Techtonics Tuning HD dual valve springs
 Lightweight cam followers (OEM VW MKIV followers)  
Titanium retainers (10 grams a piece)
 Ported OBDII throttle body  
USRT SRI manifold 
 USRT Phenolic intake gasket  
OBX T-304 Stainless steel 4-2-1 header  
No cat
2.5" exhaust from the header-back
Techtonics Tuning custom program ECU chip  
Split Second ARC1  
Split Second ARM1  
MSD Blaster SS coil
Techtonics 276* camshaft (4* advance*










This was with just changing the cam to a TT288*. Different shop, but still a Dyno Dynamics.


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## URIN 2ND (Oct 29, 2001)

Awesome feedback, man. Thank you! :beer:

I should be pretty close - I was counting on the flywheel and underdrive pulleys to do their part. I also forgot to mention I was swapping to the Mk4 intake, which I had seen a back to back dyno of something close to 4-5 wheel HP. :thumbup:

That's pretty close to 150 crank, for not much by way of engine work - in an antiquated SOHC 2.0L. Definitely comparable to a DOHC VTEC B16A at 160 crank.

Sucks the headwork didn't seem to do much, though.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

The MKIV manifold, following porting, provides better flow due to a larger runner radius from the get-go. And once you message the short turn radius where they bolt together, flow is increased enough where you can actually see it on a dyno. 

Headwork on these 8v heads is key. Oddly, keeping stock intake diameter, but upping the exhaust by 1mm is what works. The exhaust port route is retarded...I dont know what genius designed these heads. :thumbdown: But porting for the cam duration you are running, plus proper bowl work does wonders for flow. I had mine done by a race team in Germany way back when. Ported for a 276*-288* duration. Cam came ALIVE past 4500rpms. Pulled like the space shuttle. 

Anyways, good luck with your build. Check out my threads when you get time. Tons of useful info I accumulated over the years. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...TECH-quot-threads-for-the-ABA-specific-engine


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Oh, and for your amusement, my baseline (stock) dyno overlayed with my last 142whp dyno. :laugh:


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## 2.slowduo (Sep 17, 2008)

A few years back. I lucked out and found a built head on the local to NC forum for 300$
Port and polish,3 angle valve job, decked .030, 268 cam and a ported lower manifold. Also got his ecu. Non chip file tt and tt stainless exhaust with test pipe. 
Got his gti seats and glx tails as well. But anyway. 
That head along with my badass drilled box filled with K&N. 
I made 120whp and 127tq. Up from 86whp and 116 tq. With just a K&N 
Great fun. Pretty cheap. Not fast. 
Sounds great. Gets 35mpg on premium. It hates regular gas now. 
It also wants a timing belt every 40k or will throw all kinds of codes. 
Never let me down and always starts no matter how cold it is here in Chicago. 
I have road tripped it, auto x and daylied it for years. 240k. Great cars. Don't chase a dyno number. 
Just make a fun car to live with. That is what makes vws so great. They are great to live with for the long term. 

8v parts are cheap. Build fun stuff!!


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## MahTrek=] (Nov 6, 2008)

URIN 2ND said:


> Awesome feedback, man. Thank you! :beer:
> 
> I should be pretty close - I was counting on the flywheel and underdrive pulleys to do their part. I also forgot to mention I was swapping to the Mk4 intake, which I had seen a back to back dyno of something close to 4-5 wheel HP. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Obd0 b16a is 160 yes but obdI b16a is 170chp. You gotta stop comparing to Honda engines. Apples to oranges man. I used to do the exact same thing. Take it for what it is and have fun with it :thumbup: I have a mk3 Jetta with an aba.
3" intake
SRI
AT270
AT dual valve springs 
AEG lifters 
Raceland 4-2-1 Header
2.5" Test Pipe
2.36" modded neuspeed exhaust
And a United motorsports chip. 
BFI .5 mounts
Also a close ratio 2y trans with lw flywheel, strapped pressure plate and pelolok shim kit. 

My buddies em1 (b16a2, 160chp) with just an exhaust pulls on me pretty hard. I would need lots of headwork and a much bigger cam to even keep up. Doesn't mean that my car is isn't a lot of fun still. Food for thought


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## URIN 2ND (Oct 29, 2001)

MahTrek=] said:


> Obd0 b16a is 160 yes but obdI b16a is 170chp. You gotta stop comparing to Honda engines. Apples to oranges man. I used to do the exact same thing. Take it for what it is and have fun with it :thumbup: I have a mk3 Jetta with an aba.
> 3" intake
> SRI
> AT270
> ...


Yeah...you gotta remember nearly ALL of those Hondas weigh considerably less, as well. Mk3+, these cars started getting pretty porky. 2,519 lbs for an EM1, and roughly 2,720 lbs for a Mk3 Jetta (will differ with options; a VR Jetta will weigh just shy of 3k lbs).

Sounds like all you really have on top of a stock 2.slow Jetta is a mild cam, mild chip, exhaust and flywheel. You would definitely need more to keep up with an EM1 SI.

Put that package in a 1,700 lb Mk1 and it would turn the tables a little (I think you missed that my setup is in a stripped '81 Scirocco, not a full weight Mk3 sedan). This is why the ZC swapped CRX's were considered "quick" back in their day, with 130hp.

Read through the whole thread.


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## MahTrek=] (Nov 6, 2008)

I agree that mk3's are pigs. I know your setup is in a scirocco, it's gonna move :thumbup: I was just offering up my opinion is all. And I have more than a cam, Chip, exhaust and flywheel. I listed my mods in my previous post.


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## URIN 2ND (Oct 29, 2001)

Just bumping this to note some changes/progress (if you can call it that) on my project.

1981 Scirocco, ~1900 lbs curb

*ENGINE/DRIVELINE:*
1996/OBD2 ABA
Raceland Mk1 header
2Y gearbox w/ Peloquin diff, ARP ring gear bolts, L/W flywheel, Sachs clutch & PP
TT 260 cam
C2 Motorsports Race chip
TT/PowerSprint 2.25" catless exhaust
Eurosport crank pulley

*SUSPENSION:*
Autopower roll bar
Eurosport Fr/Rr upper tie bars
Eurosport Fr lower tie bar
ST swaybars (22mm front, 25mm rear)
ST coilovers
14" snowflakes for the street/DD
15" Ronals for the race rubber

...I'm actually thinking I will go turbo now.  I was just looking at the money and effort required to get where i wanted to be N/A, and realized that even with a ghetto $600 turbo setup, I'd have more power and torque. So it will stay N/A through the winter, but in the spring, I am anticipating a turbo setup.


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