# Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees?



## Driver Dan (Dec 28, 2006)

I have been lurking on this board for over two and a half years, and finally had to write to express my admiration for Michael, as well as the generally extremely high level of discourse on this forum, and to ask for some help.
I have had two Phaetons over this time period. The first was a V8, which was totaled after I was hit broadside and driven into a 100 year old oak tree by a neighbor who was backing out of his hillside driveway and neglected to check oncoming traffic, because he was too engrossed in the CD concerning whiplash injuries which he was listening to as part of his continuing education as a personal injury lawyer. (I am not making this up). The car went to a better place, but I remained basically unscathed (ignoring the air bag lacerations on my forehead), though my doctor suggested it might be fun for me to wear a cervical collar while walking the dog in front of the perpetrator's house. (I didn't)
I replaced this car with a premier edition W12 which had been sitting unloved in a Texas dealership for almost a year before I found it on the internet and bought it sight unseen. Over the past twenty months this car, like its predecessor, has been flawless. About two weeks ago though I noticed that the temperature gauge indicated 200 degrees. Prior to this time I am quite confident that the gauge had been rock solid at 160 degrees. I checked the coolant, found it low, and topped it off. The temperature remained at 200. At my recent 20,000 mile service, the tech said nothing untoward could be found, and that 200 degrees was normal.
As an automobile illiterate, I am worried that things may be running hotter than they should, thus presaging trouble down the road. Any thoughts? Any help from the community is appreciated.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

My understanding is that 195 to 200 deg. F. is normal.


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## geowben (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Driver Dan, I can't help you. I haven't noticed the tempature. I will now. And, thank you, that is a beautifully written post. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Both my water and oil temps are rock steady after warmup at 200 degrees F. I have the V8, 37,000 miles.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (geowben)*

Dan,
Two things:
(1) 200°F is normal. That's right where you want it to be. You'll find, however, the oil temperature will fluctuate -- this is normal as well.
(2) I'm so glad you're okay becaue it allows me to express how absolutely PRICELESS I found your post!
Drive the W12 in good health & have a Happy New Year!


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Great post. Hope your neighbor doesn't file a suit against you claiming you were drivng sideways up his driveway!








Both my old V8 as well as my W12 run at exactly 200 degrees, and they get there real quick! At first I thought that was hot also, but apparently it is perfectly normal.


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## Driver Dan (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (murphybaileysam)*

Thank you all for your quick replies. I could have sworn that the temperature had previously been 160 degrees, but perhaps this is just my early Alzheimer's becoming manifest.
In any case, I am reassured that:
1) My car will probably not blow up tomorrow.
2) My Phaeton tech does know what he is talking about. And
3) This Phaeton forum is the best car community out there.
Thanks again, and happy new year .


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Hi Jeremy,
Good story. I would have wheeled by the prerp's house in a wheel chair. But that's me.








My W12 has run 200 F ever since I got it. The oil temp does fluxuate somewhat.
Regards,
Brent


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (W126C)*

*200 for a V8 *


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Hi Jeremy:
I found myself rolling on the floor laughing after reading your post about the lawyer listening to the CD when he hit you. That is truly funny.
Anyway, about engine temperatures - like everyone else has confirmed, 90°C or 200° F is the normal temperature display for the engine coolant temperature. My guess is that you are recalling the normal temperature display for the oil temperature, which is typically about 80°C in the W12. It is easy to confuse the indications. For what it's worth, the oil temperature normally takes far longer to rise than the engine coolant temperature, and it falls off much faster once the car has been shut down.
Lastly, here's a little bit of trivia for you: The engine coolant temperature gauge in the Phaeton is actually 'electronically dampened' so that it will display 90°C anytime the coolant temperature is between about 86° and 103°. This is intentional, to avoid causing the driver any anxiety as the coolant temperature encounters normal variations during vehicle operation, especially in congested traffic.
There is a recent post about the coolant temperature control system here: F265 Map Controlled Engine Thermostat Replacement (W12 - BAP).
Michael


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## pirateat50 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Lastly, here's a little bit of trivia for you: The engine coolant temperature gauge in the Phaeton is actually 'electronically dampened' so that it will display 90°C anytime the coolant temperature is between about 86° and 103°. This is intentional, to avoid causing the driver any anxiety as the coolant temperature encounters normal variations during vehicle operation, especially in congested traffic.
Michael

Just one more reason I love my Phaeton---it is such a "caring" machine!


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## Driver Dan (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (PanEuropean)*

Michael;
THank you for your definitive answer, as well as probably identifying the source of my simple minded confusion.
As usual, you never cease to amaze me as a seemingly inexhaustible fount of information.
Jeremy


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Thanks for your nice comments. Phaeton design and technology is more interesting to me than investigating aircraft accidents and doing aviation safety audits, which is my 'day job'. Plus, car forums run at a slower, more relaxed and contemplative pace. I have yet to see a posting in an aviation forum that reads "Uh, the left engine just failed, anyone have any suggestions?"








Michael


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (PanEuropean)*

Just pull over onto that fluffy cloud and press the OnStar button!


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (PanEuropean)*

My W12 runs as follows. I verified it today at 80?F = 27?C ambient temperature (as reported by the Y24 display):
Oil = 210?F = 99?C
Coolant = 200?F = 93?C
I've had the F265 thermostat replaced, and to the best of my recollection, the temps reported by the gauges did not vary.
I am going to see a new VW mechanic on Monday due to a separate issue, is temp something that should be looked at in my car? Seems that everyone else is running cooler.


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Itzmann)*

I have seen no mention of the fact that the cooling system is under pressure, and when that is so, the boiling temp of the coolant is much higher than 212F. Probably around 240F. But I forget exactly.
I raised this same question when I first got my car.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Hello Jeremy, and welcome! 
Here's another piece of trivia regarding the coolant temperature: when I took delivery of my '05 V8 a little over a year ago, I immediately noticed the gauge steady at 200. This did not seem right to me because the 200 marking is approximately 3/4 of the way over on the dial, as opposed to the oil temperature gauge where the normal operating position is squarely in the middle. So, I checked the owners' manual: no reference to a specific "normal" operating temperature, but a nice photo of the dial with a red overlay (if I remember well) suggesting 160 to be the normal value. So I immediately called the dealer, and my Phaeton tech, like, yours, confirmed that the normal temperature is 200. It has been rock-steady at 200 ever since, through all kinds of weather.
Stefano


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

Jeremy, forgot to add:
if you are still considering suing, there's a lawyer I know who specializes in accidents/injury: he drives a Ferrari F430 and a new Rolls Royce with a vanity plate that says "hit me", so he is really quite well qualified to handle your case








(I'm not making this up!)
Stefano


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## Viergang Fuchs (May 31, 2006)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Thanks for your nice comments. Phaeton design and technology is more interesting to me than investigating aircraft accidents and doing aviation safety audits, which is my 'day job'. Plus, car forums run at a slower, more relaxed and contemplative pace. I have yet to see a posting in an aviation forum that reads "Uh, the left engine just failed, anyone have any suggestions?"








Michael

Just wait until it becomes easier to get consistent BlackBerry service in-flight!
Regarding temperature:
I have seen the oil temperature spike a bit on-track, but nothing like my old Seven kit car, which would regularly show oil temp in the 250F range. 
This past August, I had the chance to run the car for well over an hour at speeds of 100-120mph in 100 degree weather. We had four people in the car, it was fully loaded with luggage, and the A/C full was running at full chat. For the second half of that time the water temp was displaying about 215F. Once we returned to 80-90mph zone the temp returned to the normal 200F peg.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Viergang Fuchs)*

Happy New Year Jack,
How about your temp on the track? Notice anything different? Hope you keep an eye on it?








Regards,
Brent


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## henna gaijin (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Jack Orr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jack Orr* »_I have seen no mention of the fact that the cooling system is under pressure, and when that is so, the boiling temp of the coolant is much higher than 212F. Probably around 240F. But I forget exactly.
I raised this same question when I first got my car.

The recommended VW coolant protects against both Freeze-up and Boil-over.
Recommended coolant/water ratio is minimum 50/50, maximum 70/30.
At 50/50, freeze-up is at -35F and boilover is at +264F
At 60/40: -62F and +269F
At 70/30: -83F and +277F
HTH


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## my04phaeton (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

My 04 Phaeton exhibited a 220 too 240 degree on long trips this fall. and around town i noticed the oil temp and coolant climbing too 220 and 240. watch and if this happens too you put a behr thermostat in her. james. v8 engines pays 8 hours for it installed. t belt has too come off. i replaced my belt and all components when i did mine. ext warr payed for labor and stat i payed for the belt and components out of my shop pocket.


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

Jeremy,
Welcome and great post. Thanks for the humorous writeup and glad you came out of the incidence with minimal personal injury.
Per the temp bit, my car displays 200 degree F also.


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## Reflect (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: (maverixz)*

My car displays 200 and so does all my former and other VW's Audi I own.
I was involved in an accident with my 06 Passat and people and lawyer plus insurance are a joke. so hitting the lawyer would be the Worse case scenario since they know how to steal since they know laws.
This car was made to run in a really hot weather for long periods of this with the room temp in the car to be no more than 72 degrees as Phaeton daddy suggested so im glad someone tried and can confirm this.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_My W12 runs as follows. I verified it today at 80?F = 27?C ambient temperature (as reported by the Y24 display):
Oil = 210?F = 99?C
Coolant = 200?F = 93?C


This morning, about 3 minutes after ignition, as I was driving slowly, I got the *BEEP - BEEP* warning chime and the Y24 reported in red characters:
*COOLANT TEMP OVERHEAT* (or something similar, three words)
As I looked at the water temperature gauge, it was racing down from the 3/4ths of max indicator and it plunged to about 1/2 of max. Yes, it was going DOWN. It stabilized at 1/2 of max.
Oil temperature, meanwhile, was at or near minimum (which is normal on my car until 210°F is reached after about 20 minutes of operation).
The red warning disappeared within 5 seconds of initial appearance. Water temperature slowly raised to the 200°F mark and it stayed there.
Oil temperature slowly raised to the 210°F normal and it stayed there.


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Itzmann)*

Sounds like a stuck thermostat... had it once or twice on much lesser vehicles. Never need to change one for this reason....
Not sure how to respond in the case of a Phaeton.
My Phaeton runs 90C for water and 100C for oil. Both rock steady for mile after mile.
Regards
M


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## sinhamn (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Driver Dan)*

interesting write up.
200degree is for my v8
donot forget to get the lawyer . It can still be the cause of your memory loss!!!! (160 instead of 200)








man


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Is your engine running at 160 or 200 degrees? (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_This morning, about 3 minutes after ignition, as I was driving slowly, I got the *BEEP - BEEP* warning chime and the Y24 reported in red characters: *COOLANT TEMP OVERHEAT* ...
As I looked at the water temperature gauge, it was racing down from the 3/4ths of max indicator and it plunged to about 1/2 of max. Yes, it was going DOWN. It stabilized at 1/2 of max.

Hi Francisco:
I have noticed the same behaviour once or twice in my W12 Phaeton. It appears to be an anomalous indication, in other words, there is nothing wrong with the engine, but the indication system is having a momentary problem. 
Considering that it has only happened twice in the past year, and that the problem solves itself after a few seconds, I have just made a mental note of it, but decided to not investigate it further at this time. Chances are that either the temperature measuring device or the wiring harness leading to the temperature measuring device is degrading.
The W12 has numerous coolant temperature measuring devices. If the one that supplies the information to the instrument cluster fails, it is a simple task to poll the other signals (which are not displayed to the driver) using a diagnostic scan tool, and from that, determine whether the overheat indication is truthful, or simply a result of a failure of one indication system.
I wouldn't worry about it at this stage of the game. 
Michael


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

PanEuropean said:


> Considering that it has only happened twice in the past year, and that the problem solves itself after a few seconds, I have just made a mental note of it, but decided to not investigate it further at this time


Correct, Michael, it only happened that one time and has never happened again.

I didn't mention it at the time, but it takes 4.6 miles = 15 minutes of my regular work commute for my car's oil to even reach operating temperature. 

Hence I knew at the time it was extremely unlikely for the water to have already boiled and for temps to be going down.


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## hoam skooled (Feb 4, 2015)

*Running warmer than usual*

I have an '04 4.2 phaeton...my temp gauge has ALWAYS been 200 water and 180-200 oil temp..never moved..as of last week or so my water is running 220-230 and oil is about 220 ..my check engine light came on a month ago..seems to be running fine ..oil level is good..water level is full ..seems to climb higher at 70 mph than 60 mph and the heater is blowing warm.when i first turned the heater on to see if i could drop the gauge it responded and went almost back to 200 water temp..then a few miles later is was back to 220-230 ...would a bad catalytic converter cause a heat rise?.. i figure it made sense with the check engine light coming on..i do plan on getting it scanned , but i live in the sticks , need to do it when i go to the city some day ..

car has 127k on it.. i have put 20k of them on since february 2015 , it has been very reliable.. i need to do a timing belt on it asap as i dont know the history of it being replaced..and i am scheduling a trans flush n fill n flash..has had that "shudder" n hunting tach since i got it..minor annoyance , not a big deal..and the drivers window is off track n stuck down as of 2 days ago..lol..did i mention i DO love this car though?..lol.. i dont mind fixing , i still have a yrs worth of payments so i have no choice but to fix it..i love the car and would like to own it a long time.. ty for any help on this matter , steve-o


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