# Stubborn P0441 code



## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

I've been troubleshooting this code for a while now with no luck. So far I've replaced the gas cap, N80 valve, the new updated hose for the N80 valve and even the carbon canister. No matter what the code has always come back.

I've ran Basic settings 70 with vagcom and ran the evap test and it fails when it gets to 66.8%. Don't know what these numbers are telling me though. Anybody know?

In another forum somebody mention checking the double check valve (in red below) with a vacuum. I was not able to pull a vacuum on it. I don't know what its suppose to do. This double check valve is to the left of the N80 valve










Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 1K0 907 115 B HW: 1K0 907 115 B
Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0040
Software Coding: 0403010A18070160
Work Shop Code: WSC 65728 1018 854933
VCID: 254B9B83ECFA27B
1 Fault Found:

001089 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11100010
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 205092 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 19:41:35

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 742 /min
Load: 20.8 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 81.0°C
Temperature: 18.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.970 V


Readiness: 0000 0000


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

bbong73 said:


> I've been troubleshooting this code for a while now with no luck. So far I've replaced the gas cap, N80 valve, the new updated hose for the N80 valve and even the carbon canister. No matter what the code has always come back.
> 
> I've ran Basic settings 70 with vagcom and ran the evap test and it fails when it gets to 66.8%. Don't know what these numbers are telling me though. Anybody know?
> 
> ...


Check the leak detection pump, lines, clamps and anything related for leaks. Hoses can become porous and cause a leak detection failure code P0441. The code is pointing at a small (0.020) leak detected. Most of the time it's the cap seal. Did you buy an OEM cap ?


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

Yes it was an OEM cap. I believe I'm on my third cap actually.

Does anyone know how the double check valve work. Should I be able to pull a vacuum on it from the hose that attaches to the left side of the N80 valve?

I've looked over the hoses but didn't see anything. I might have to figure out how to smoke them.

What about the Basic setting 70 test? Anyone have info on that?

Thanks, this is really getting annoying now


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX:heart:

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

Yeah LOL

I've been told a lot to change the gas cap.

I've exercised the N80 valve recently and its relatively new also.

Any idea if I should be holding a vacuum on the hose that attaches to the left side of the N80. The one that goes to the double check valve or pressure limiting valve?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX:heart:

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> This code doesn't point to a small LDP leak or a gas cap related DTC DR.



The information available through All Data points to a small leak detected. I never said it was a LDP issue. P0441 indicates a "system" leak detected and some aftermarket caps will fail to seal the system.


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

OP. You should find a smoke machine and perform a system leak/integrity test


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX:heart:

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

What does EVAP 070 test?

trying to figure out what the numbers mean. Mine fails at 66.8%


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX:heart:

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> 070 tests the evap N80 for vapors.
> 
> 071 tests the LDP for tank and cap.



That's what the actual test performs, but the DTC is for a system leak. It's not looking at only N80.
It reports as a "SYSTEM LEAK", so it could be anything.


*001089 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - MIL ON*


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

No doctor, I believe you are incorrect.


http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16825/P0441/001089


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

If you clamp the purge valve hose and run the test you will get the P0441 code. If it’s stuck closed you get the code.
If you have a leak after the LDP you get a P0442
I am going with Jack on this one.
Good Luck


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> No doctor, I believe you are incorrect.
> 
> 
> http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16825/P0441/001089



Probable cause/possible symptoms also points to leak issue's in both All Data and Ross-Tech information as seen here.



* 16825/P0441/001089 - EVAP Emission Control Sys: Incorrect Flow *

* Possible Symptoms *




 Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) active

* Possible Causes *




 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister Purge Regulator Valve (N80) faulty/jammed
 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister Purge Solenoid Valve (N115) faulty/jammed
 _*Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister Sealing faulty *_
_* Pipes between Tank Breathing and Throttle Body leaky/blocked *_

* Possible Solutions *




 Check Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister Purge Regulator Valve (N80)

 Perform Output Test


 Check Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister Purge Solenoid Valve (N115)
 Check Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister

 Perform Basic Setting


 _*Check Pipes between Tank Breathing and Throttle Body*_

* Special Notes *




 When found in the NAR 1.8T Audi A4 1.8T check TSB 24-08-78 or 2010268/3 or Pass-Thru equivalent TSB
 When found in the NAR 1.8T VW Passat 1.8T check TSB 01-09-09 or 2005554 or Pass-Thru equivalent TSB

 Note: The Passat 26E5 or "R5" recall includes the same software update


 Make sure the quick release lines for the N80 valve and vacuum line to LDP are not crossed.

 This can also make the engine hard to start after filling up the fuel tank.



Category: Fault Codes

*They are looking for leaks, especially from the canister lines to the evap-purge valve N80.
I bet it's a leak near the canister and only a smoke machine will find it*


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Nope you shouldn't be trying to hold a vacuum at the TV side.


Are you saying that the N80 valve _shouldn't_ hold vacuum on the TV side when tested out of the car 

Dr Diesel, I also believe you incorrectly stated to check the LDP in your first reply. This code indicates a problem between the canister and N80, not the LDP.

As I understand it, 16825 (P0441) is a problem between the canister and throttle body (including N80), tested in 070. So, a leak or blockage in the line from the canister to N80 would cause this code, as would a faulty N80.

16826 (P0442) indicates a leak involving LDP, or the tank side (including the gas cap), tested in 071.

The difference is easy to see when you watch the blocks while running the basic settings.

I have to agree with Dr Diesel on one general aspect though...smoke is instrumental in finding EVAP leaks, wherever they may be hiding. They can be very difficult to diagnose without a smoke machine.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX:heart:

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Why "Dr. D. " , the information you site, and everyone posts is incorrect in regards to this.
> 
> How many times do I have to say that the repair manual is WRONG!
> 
> ...



Uhh Hmm! That's your information you provided in your link in your post #13 :wave:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Respectfully No! Dr. Dummkopf...... FAIL:facepalm:
> 
> What I'm saying is, what your saying, and the repair information is wrong.
> 
> ...


Well. I can't verify your claim of information accuracy, so until that time it's the information I use.
If it wasn't correct, why would Ross-Tech have it posted in the WiKi ????

Yes, I like the visual smoke test because it shows the leak. Yes, I could use the vacuum decay test to verify the leak, but you still haven't located it. Smoke shows you where it's at, right now. It's verified while testing. I use my smoke machine for many other tests too. It's a quick way to find intake leaks and pirate air behind the MAF. Quick, accurate and simple. I like the KISS method when available. If you choose to remain a Dummkoff parts changer, that's your prerogative. Good luck :facepalm:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Actually I like to isolate a zone with a vacuum gage and then just remove and replace the zone for inspection.
> Further I will tell you why I don't like smoke. _It's not under PSI or vacuum._
> 
> So what I do is pressurize the zone with air and intake spray then use a halogen AC detector to find small leaks.
> ...


_*
Smoke is under pressure.*_ *I like to use it for that exact reason*. When going into a repair facility to find and fix problems, it's a quick and handy money making tool. I have no idea what someone else has done to most of the problem child's, I get stuck with. Having a quick and simple diagnostic tool at my disposal makes perfect sense for me. If you're removing and isolating sections of the Evap system to verify if it leaks or not, you're wasting time and burning hours that could have been spent making money. If you're using carb spray to find a leak, you're a step away from major liability issue's.

Having diagnostic tools and knowing how to use them to save time and money makes perfect sense, even if you don't agree with it. As long as you keep it civil and refrain from the name calling or trying put others down for the tools they use to simplify diagnostic, we might actually be able to learn form one another. You don't know everything there is to know about automotive repair, so just chill out and allow others to have and express their opinions and knowledge without being rude, arrogant and ignorant, just because your don't agree with it. This is a public forum with hundreds of user's that have different idea's and opinions, just like you. They don't act like a horse's behind with rudeness and ignorance, so why do you find the need to act like you know everything and everyone else is just stupid. That's as STUPID as STUPID get's. 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise. I'll most definitely remember to use that strategy the next time I run across and Evap issue, along with my smoke machine


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] Parts said:


> I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion. Your the DR. How more arrogant do you get with that title.
> 
> Are you really a doctor?
> 
> ...


See! That was much better. My screen name isn't related to who I am or what I do. It was my diesel truck platform "DR" back in 1996, so I used it as a log in name and it stuck.
I'm sure you are very knowledgeable and have tried and true diagnostic strategy methods that work very excellent. I'm new to the Euro stuff and always willing to learn from others. You sound a like someone that knows a lot. It's just difficult to deal with your online personality, or should I say lack of. Don't take it the wrong way. I'm not trying to say your wrong or don't know what you're talking about. Don't jump on the defensive right out of the gate. I respect what you say as far as automotive information, but not the disrespectful manner you find necessary to use towards other people. Take the EGO down a few notches and you'll find it's a better way to communicate with others. We can stay on topic and avoid the ignorance.

Like I said. Thanks for sharing your expertise. I appreciate your input. I enjoy learning something new. 
THANKS.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## DrDiesel1 (Jul 10, 2011)

Thank you, Sir. Next time I get a chance to, I'll perform that test. 
Thanks for the help and educational guidance  Knowledge is power eace:


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Very nice argument guys! Glad to see it’s settled with everyone on good terms!

Dr. you’re alright not many hold a respectable argument with Jack and learn something in the end. They usually blow a head gasket and learn nothing.

Jack is one of the best on this forum and puts a lot of time in the forum. His people skills need some work but this is not a personality contest.

What matters here is VAG problems and solving them. I learned a lot from this post and so will others. I have no idea where the original posted went or what he did about his problem? But I enjoyed reading it all and I LMAO at times.

I also agree knowledge is power! Good argument Guys! 

Good Luck


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

So...now that that is settle, I think. 

I'm more confused then ever as to how troubleshoot this code.

Anybody want to get me back on track


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U .


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

Are those under Basic Settings?

I've ran the 070 test and it fails at 66.8%

I've exercised the N80 valve and it seems to be functioning and not sticking. It holds a vacuum too. It is kind of new.

I don't know what 01-04-070 is? Didn't see any test under Basic Settings 001 or 004

Thanks


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

ok, yeah that's the one I've ran plenty of times and it fails when it reaches 66.8%

Interesting that you say it will fail if the throttle body is dirty. Would this code come up if the intake valves were caked up. My car has 130k miles and they are bad. I'm getting like 26mpg lately. I'm ready to clean them actually. I need to take a look at the throttle body as well.

I don't know what else it could be.

You don' think its the pressure limiting valve after the n80 valve?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Sure if they are caked.

Limit should also be checked.


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

sorry, how do I do that?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

THIS POST MOVED/VACATED BY JACK TO PROTECT CONTENT FALLING INTO THE GAPING HOLE OF THE VORTEX

IT SEEMS NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaoySOGlZ_U


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## vwGTIjunky (Jan 9, 2010)

*Eschew Obfuscation*

A note to the people who run Vortex:

In order to make this and other posts more readable for those of us looking for answers, would it be possible to go through some of these and remove all the bitching and sniping comments and leave the useful ones intact?

A "Spell-check" option might be a good idea as well.


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## bbong73 (Sep 12, 2002)

Finally got to replacing the pressure limiting valve in red and that took care of the code. It hasn't come back in 6+ months :thumbup:


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## 0-60Motorsports (Dec 27, 2009)

getting the same code. Will look at the above suggestions and try and diagnose the car. COde pops up every 150km...


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## [email protected]_Parts (Aug 3, 2014)

This is not an auto-scan...........

Check for sporadic N80 or stuck open.


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## 0-60Motorsports (Dec 27, 2009)

[email protected]_Parts said:


> This is not an auto-scan...........
> 
> Check for sporadic N80 or stuck open.


Jack can you PM price of this part shipped to NY11413. Thanks.


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## [email protected]_Parts (Aug 3, 2014)

sent and no data means no quote..................


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## 0-60Motorsports (Dec 27, 2009)

[email protected]_Parts said:


> sent and no data means no quote..................


Thanks and i'll update you with the info tomorrow via PM.


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## [email protected]_Parts (Aug 3, 2014)

Please post an auto-scan or I can't help you.


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## sebasEuRo (Feb 26, 2006)

DrDiesel1 said:


> Probable cause/possible symptoms also points to leak issue's in both All Data and Ross-Tech information as seen here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In because excellent info from DrDiesel, as always :beer: I just bought a B6 Passat 3.6 and this code came on, *001089 - EVAP Emission Control Sys, P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - MIL ON* along with *001110 - EVAP System, P0456 - 001 - Very Small Leak Detected - MIL ON*. I've just changed the cap, it was quite old so I said let's try that first, got an OEM one, took a short drive around neighborhood (8mins or so) but MIL is still ON.


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