# Throttle Body Porting



## VWShocker (Mar 19, 2010)

...


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

I would deffinately like some info on this as well. Porting the TB was a thought of mine for some time now but wasn't sure what gains, if any, it would show since I've never done it before.


----------



## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

I think this is a good idea, but I think that the intake manifold on my Rabbit is plastic so I'm not too sure what can be done there. 

This may be the reason that one or two manufacturers had started development of an intake from scratch.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

well dude, def keep us posted! 

and well.. thanks!!! if it works well, i'll follow.


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Me 2 fo sho. I was considering buyin a used one and sending it away to TMtuning cause they do TB modifications. Not sure how much they charge so I never got around to it.


----------



## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

VWShocker said:


> TMTuning is based in Germany it looks like. Shipping is going to be a bitch and the Euro to Dollar exchange is going to kick my ass should I want to send my TB to them for porting. I'll have to contact them to see how much it will be and hope I don't cringe.
> 
> -E


 Something to consider is that AFAIK, our engine is a North American market only engine or at least not used in Germany. So while they can rework the TB, they likely won't be able to make any of the programming changes that may be required. When I had the lip removed from my 95 VR6 TB, there was a dead spot in the range of motion that did not have a mappable fuel value for that throttle position and MAF combo. So, the car would lurch madly at that spot and this wasn't resolved until the appropriate software was used. 

If the above holds true, you could just as well use a reputable American TB specialist and contact someone local for mapping.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

VWShocker said:


> Wonder if C2 would be interested in tuning something like this? I'll have to check and see. I know Unitronics would love to get involved in this.
> 
> -E


 i second the motion for unitronic. 
after all, they are the only ones who could do it for the 2.5 2009


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Just dont forget to keep the rest of the community posted on your progress if you go through with it. :thumbup:


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

So whats the word? Anyone look into this further?


----------



## BlackRabbit2point5 (Sep 6, 2007)

honestly I say hold off on any major engine modifications until the rest of the supporting hardware is in place. Personally I'm waiting for cams to happen before I tear open my engine. On the other hand I'm currently investigating running the car off AEM standalone and if I can manage the financial side of it I am looking to develop a jumper harness so no permanent modification would be required. Let me know if this sounds like something thats up your alley. Should mention I'd be selling the jumper harness with a base startup map


----------



## Quinny45 (Mar 26, 2009)

http://www.maxbore.com/

honda specialist but I think they can do the job


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

VWShocker said:


> Thank you!!
> 
> They are going to do mine for me. Sweet!!
> 
> ...


How much did they quote you for the job?


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Not all about using a shop that specializes in Hondas to do any work on my car but hey, if they do it for you and it produces some gains, Im all for it. Let us know what the outcome is after you get the TB back.


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

VWShocker said:


> $105 because I'm paying with money order.


Nice. Are your disassembling and sending your current TB or did you but another?
Oh and make sure you take before and after pics. 
I'm curious to see how much they can open it up.


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Very anxious to hear what the results are, Im ready to do this if its worth it. Thanks for taking the plunge for the rest of us :beer:


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

Porting a 2.5L Throttle body will gain you nothing but a lighter wallet and possibly some error codes.

Feel free to test, and prove it to the rest.

For testing try this:
Borrow an mk4 R32 TB or a Hemi 5.7 TB. (plugs straight in)
BOTH are way larger than and bored 2.5L TB
Dyno the car, before and after.

-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

First off, how are you going to port the intake manifold? It's plastic. Just get another one if you're looking to improve that part of the engine. Fifteen52 makes them for the 2.5 already. Find them on Facebook at obviously facebook.com/fifteen52 or at 1552v2.com. Give them a call for pricing and info. I believe they have some in-stock still. I already have the prototype on my car but I can't tell you how big of a difference from stock it will give you because its just one part of an enormous build. So its not like I added only this so I can't give you a before and after of how well it works. Plus its been 10 months now without my baby, so I havent even driven the bitch since October 2009 anyway. Its designed for turbo applications so I'm not sure how it will fare on N/A 2.5 engines. And its also worth noting it should be used in conjunction with other upgrades like an intake and software otherwise N/A gains will be unnoticeable from the driver's seat.

As for porting the throttle body, I looked into this as part of my build but eventually decided against it for fear of possible idle control issues. Jeff is right. These German cars are sooo sensitive if the ECU sees any change its just like DING and throws a MIL. And I'm not driving around with a MIL permanently on in a modified car because how will I know if something else is going wrong until everything goes boom?

But hey if you wanna try it and it works for you with no issues, I'm happy for you. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

I know you said two manufacturers were working on an intake mani from scratch. Evolution Tuning was halfway through development on one before Vic decided to kill the project. I only mentioned the one by 1552 if you wanted one now instead of waiting.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 6, 2007)

VWShocker said:


> The one by 1552 does not look like it has any R&D into it. Looks like a Pringles can with runners. No offense. Just my opinion.


No offense?

What sort of R&D do you suppose we've missed? Obtaining volumetric runner/plenum numbers from the OE manifold? Working with established quantitative rules of thumb for runner and plenum sizes in forced induction applications? 

What else?


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

How come I can't find anthing about this intake manifold on your site if you do indeed sell one for the 2.5?


----------



## VWShocker (Mar 19, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> No offense?
> 
> What sort of R&D do you suppose we've missed? Obtaining volumetric runner/plenum numbers from the OE manifold? Working with established quantitative rules of thumb for runner and plenum sizes in forced induction applications?
> 
> What else?


That is easy to do on paper...


What form of testing did you do and how many times did you go back to the drawing boards when designing your intake manifold?

1) Did you use an engine dyno to confirm power gain/power loss? 

2) What was your primary focus in designing this intake manifold? Torque or horsepower? 

3) What experience do you have in designing intake manifolds? Having the skills to weld and fabricate does NOT give you the expertise to design efficient intake manifolds. 

4) Did you have access to a flow bench? If so how much CFM were you able to gain OVER the stock intake manifold? I don't need to know the total CFM per runner before and after. I'd just like to know the average CFM you gained. 

5) All/most intake manifolds I have seen have a plenum that tapers to the last cylinder. Why did you keep yours the same size 1-5? 

6) Did you do research using computer programs on the internal parts of the intake manifolds? Would a flat entry into the cylinder do better than a raised ridge? 

I'm sorry but if you want to argue with me about intake manifold design, you'd better be able to provide answers to the consumers putting money in your pocket with one of your products. Merely saying that your intake manifold is 99% geared towards forced induction is hogwash since you can merely claim that your intake manifold allows more air via the turbines in the turbo. If your intake manifold is designed properly you should be able to see gains regardless if its N/A or FI. 

Here are a couple of intake manifolds for the Evo 8/9. All of these have been throughly tested and proven to make gains. Notice a common theme among them? They don't look like Pringle cans. 

Driven Innovations:










AMS (A leader in the industry for racing. Check out their world record EVO AND GTR):










Magnus Motorsports ( A leader on the drag strip ):











That's just a few of the ones I know about. 

I don't think you want to argue with someone that has a close relationship to Wilson Manifolds out of Florida. Number 1 intake manifolds used on the most professional drag cars in the world. 

Sorry this post sounds angry but you called me out and now the ball is in your court to prove your product. 

-E


----------



## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...hort-Runner-Intake-Manifold-(for-boost)/page3

i'd say they know what they are doing...also eurojet has an intake mani for the 2.5l too


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Shocker,

How are you gonna try and knock one of the companies developing products for us?
Not cool, dude.
You're playing from the armchair, these guys are are doing it for real.
Sorry man, but you got it twisted.


----------



## chikubi (Jan 14, 2002)

VWShocker said:


> I don't think you want to argue with someone that has a close relationship to Wilson Manifolds out of Florida. Number 1 intake manifolds used on the most professional drag cars in the world.
> 
> Sorry this post sounds angry but you called me out and now the ball is in your court to prove your product.
> 
> -E


Who the **** are you, a self-admitted VW noob, to come in here and start this kind of **** with a VW & Audi tuner that's been in this business since 1996?

I don't give a rat's ass who you have a close relationship with, to come in here and start pushing buttons simply isn't cool. Brad never said anything about what they've done or not done; all he commented about were your assumptions they've done no R&D and that their work looks like crap. IOW, you made all kinds of assumptions based on what you've seen in some pics and you were nasty and confrontational in your post. To my knowledge they don't even have any manifolds on the market yet so for all you know they're still doing the kind of testing you seem to have a hard-on for.

Chill-out, spend less time typing and more time reading and researching, and then if you still have issues with any of the companies doing what they can to support our red-headed 5-cyl stepchild, then try approaching the subject with a bit of decorum and respect.


----------



## sleees345 (Dec 31, 2009)

Regardless of who's right or wrong, I REALLY want to see how this TB porting thing turns out. It would be a big shame if the thread got closed because of drama. 

If for no other reason, can we all act like adults for MY sake?:beer:


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

When I get some cash saved up Im gonna bite the bullet and try and find myself a used R32 TB like Jeff suggested and see how that works out. Rather have a bigger TB then just a ported one.


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Don't waste your time. I took the r throttle body off an guy in akrons r32 and ya it hooks up but when you drive around and downshift to slow down the car doesn't. And when I was at a red light, idle lingered at 12,1300 rpm. So Idk about performance gain it actually seems weaker, less torquey. No codes were thrown but it could be because of my Unitronic file I'm running. Sounded cool tho.


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

* SHOULD ADD the rpm's did go down to the normal 700-850 range. But took about 10 seconds or a couple less. On another note(don't know but wondering) aren't intake manifolds tapered so the cylinder furthest from the tb creates enough pressure to bring in max amount of air,or so all cylinders get the same volume of air? Love to know the scienceof the tapered pringle can!:laugh:


----------



## GrkPranksta69 (Jan 11, 2009)

In to see if there's a diff. in numbers between R32 and our TB


----------



## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

kevin FaKiN spLits said:


> * SHOULD ADD the rpm's did go down to the normal 700-850 range. But took about 10 seconds or a couple less. On another note(don't know but wondering) *aren't intake manifolds tapered so the cylinder furthest from the tb creates enough pressure to bring in max amount of air,or so all cylinders get the same volume of air? Love to know the scienceof the tapered pringle can*!:laugh:


intake manifolds do indeed spread the amount of air evenly to all cylinders and the runners to each cylinder arent exactly straight so it sorta takes some power air away but with an aftermarket intake mani more air can be allowed in due to the straight runners but this can cause problems due to the fact that intake manifolds creat partial vacuums and messing with a vacuum can throw everything off so the tapering could be to help volumetric efficiency while maintaining a good vacuum


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

What numbers? Power? There feels like a loss of low end torque. Maybe ill try it again in my big turbo build in the spring. With my Sri manifold.


----------



## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

what do you mean numbers? haha as far as power it more or less evens out the power band but there is no doubt an intake mani will pull power from some where in the power band they do help though...to be honest im not sure what your question was haha


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Nope didn't even out sh**. Made the car sluggish drove like crap. I meant maybe with boost (more power) it'll. Be beneficial. But as of now didn't do a damn thing positive.


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

KulturKampf said:


> intake manifolds do indeed spread the amount of air evenly to all cylinders and the runners to each cylinder arent exactly straight so it sorta takes some power air away but with an aftermarket intake mani more air can be allowed in due to the straight runners but this can cause problems due to the fact that intake manifolds creat partial vacuums and messing with a vacuum can throw everything off so the tapering could be to help volumetric efficiency while maintaining a good vacuum


ok that makes perfect sense. Kulturkamph were u talkin to me? Or grkpranksta69? cuz I haVe no question in terms of the r32 throttle body he did. I asked my physics teacher neighbor and he said a cone(taper) takes less volume to fill it than a same size cylinder. so it would take less energy to be more efficient than a pringle can intake manifold?


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

i love the internet....


----------



## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

yeah i was talking to you kevin haha...to be honest im not a machinist/physicist/or know how to manufacture them but i do know there is alot of calculations that go into it and thats why it takes so long for companies to do r&d and mass produce one


----------



## rags2riches (Jan 2, 2010)

KulturKampf said:


> yeah i was talking to you kevin haha...to be honest im not a machinist/physicist/or know how to manufacture them but i do know there is alot of calculations that go into it and thats why it takes so long for companies to do r&d and mass produce one


I agree that the R&D is what takes so long, but not the mass production of the item itself. The reason you see companies developing mod parts for our cars and then junking the whole process is not because of the R&D. They usually end up finding out that they would have be able to sell at least hundreds if not thousands of parts before they make money on the whole deal. Being that VW sold like what, 800 golfs this year, and the fact that most of those people do not plan on modding their cars, there is little reason for companies to spend thousands and thousands of dollars producing a part that they wouldn't even be able to recover their original investment on. 
Companies like Eurojet and 1552 usually produce parts they lose money on, but just because it helps them to be respected as companies that are dedicated to what they do. This helps build their name and in turn causes people whom were smart/wealthy enough to go out and buy a GTI to see their name on Vortex and pursue a build for their already capable cars. JUST SAYING IS ALL>


----------



## GrkPranksta69 (Jan 11, 2009)

Jefnes3 said:


> For testing try this:
> Borrow an mk4 R32 TB or a Hemi 5.7 TB. (plugs straight in)
> BOTH are way larger than and bored 2.5L TB
> Dyno the car, before and after.





kevin FaKiN spLits said:


> What numbers? Power? There feels like a loss of low end torque.


 The numbers I refered to were the numbers of what Jefnes3 said by going to the dyno but then I realized that he meant to dyno to be able to see the difference in the power band, right?


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

money to power gains....not worth it.


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Not worth it at all. I asked the question about the manifold because u guys were arguing about tapered vs. Cylinder shape and I wanted to know the difference. U answered it so move on don't talk circles. It is a waste of money to do the tb swap. Just turbo the damn thing if u want power! As far as mass producing intake manifolds, They shouldn't. A handful of guys have turbo rabbits that could use them not kids who want them so their car looks dope! If u want one call up one of those companies and have them make u one. or find a flange and have a machine shop make one.


----------



## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

kevin FaKiN spLits said:


> Not worth it at all. I asked the question about the manifold because u guys were arguing about tapered vs. Cylinder shape and I wanted to know the difference. U answered it so move on don't talk circles. It is a waste of money to do the tb swap. Just turbo the damn thing if u want power! As far as mass producing intake manifolds, They shouldn't. A handful of guys have turbo rabbits that could use them *not kids who want them so their car looks dope!* If u want one call up one of those companies and have them make u one. or find a flange and have a machine shop make one.


what about the people that look at the slightest performance gains and want the most out of their vehicle?


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

dude, on NA, without better timing control, an aftermarket isnt needed.

and it could prolly hinder performance.


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

thygreyt said:


> dude, on NA, without better timing control, an aftermarket isnt needed.
> 
> and it could prolly hinder performance.


Yep as far as for me it was very hindering. If u want power by air get a turbo.


----------



## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

im just saying we might have cams by the year 2020


----------



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Well have them before to long!:laugh: I was told cat cams is messing around with them since the arrival of the Audi ttrs so let's wait and see. :laugh:


----------

