# "Best" Year-round Viscosity for 2.0 TSI



## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

I drive a much-loved 2010 GTI in a warm inland valley pf southern CA. To (hopefully) simplify things, today I'm looking at a single product line of synthetics such as Redline. Their first recommendation is 5W-30, as first alternative they suggest 5W-40, with acceptable alternatives of 0W-40 or 10W-40. As a first order of complication, Redline's 5W-40 additive package has been juggled to meet late-model Diesel CI-4 specs with reduced moly. At 23,000 miles, the car has required no added oil with the 10K mile change intervals (which I may reduce to 5K, more urban short trips than I like).

VWOA seems to take a dim view of 0W-40, even though the Porsche branch of the family pours it into all their products from containers labelled with VW approval codes. Perhaps it has more added viscosity modifiers than the others?

Not everyone agrees that climate makes a difference, but we experience only a few mornings of light frost, even winter daytime temperatures can reach the 90's, occasionally over 110F in the summer.

My wife and I may be keeping this car a long time in retirement. Any real preference for engine longevity? Use any of the above? Perhaps I just have too much free time on my hands!


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*5w-xx*

with a turbo the first number (cold) is important, as you want lubrication to the turbo as soon as it fires. 5w-30 or 5w-40 both work. don't get to hung up on the summer/winter thing, you've got an oil to water cooler that operates at the same temperature (192f) year round. the only real variable is the load the a/c puts on when it's used. as long as you're under warranty use what the manual tells you. their are many oil snobs and experts here, but in reality if it's good with vag, mb, bmw and porche, how bad can it be.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*short trips*

haven't read your manual but i bet there's a qualfier for short trips with the 10k oil change interval.


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

Thanks. I confess that I've been a junkie of oil marketing claims ever since I poured my first quart of Quaker State Deluxe into a rather weary Studebaker Golden Hawk about 46 years ago! Then discovered Mobil 1 in the mid-seventies (when it came only in 0W-20, burned through an awful '75 Volvo engine at a frightening rate).

If I do my own oil changes in between the dealer 10K service intervals, maybe something in the Castrol family. The Titanium 5W-30 perhaps?


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

With Red Line you really have to look beyond the grade on the bottle. They will always recommend the thinnest kinematic viscosity oil because they have such a high HTHS. Red Line 10W-40 has an HTHS _higher_ than Mobil1 15W-50 so it will behave more like a 15W-50 in your engine. The 0W-40 is in the middle range for kinematic viscosity for a 40 grade and should be pretty robust. Having said that, keep in mind that their oils have not actually been certified for any manufacturer or API/ACEA specs. Although I wouldn't hesitate to run them. There was someone in the past (I think the uoa's may be on here) that ran 1 quart of the 40WT race oil (for moly) and the rest was the 5W-40 street oil with very good results.

Unless you have very short trips, I really wouldn't even focus too much on the cold crank rating in California since they're all tested at well below 0F. The lower the first number, the more quickly the oil will warm up usually. But there are exceptions to the rule as some 10W-30's are thinner than 0W-40's and vice versa.

Cold Crank Viscosity 
Low temperature viscosity (mPa∙s) Max (CCS) 
0W 6200 @ -35 
5W 6600 @ -30 
10W 7000 @ -25 
15W 7000 @ -20 
20W 9500 @ -15 
25W 13000 @ -10 
http://www.pqiamerica.com/coldcrank.htm

With Red Line, I wouldn't hesitate to run the 5W-30 since it has a very robust additive package (high moly, zinc, phosphorus, calcium) and has an HTHS the same as many 40 weights (3.8) and is made with ester base stocks. I also believe that the 5W-30 does not use any viscosity modifiers but you can confirm this with Dave at Red Line. I would be guided by used oil analysis to help determine the intervals.

-Dennis


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

riversidevw said:


> If I do my own oil changes in between the dealer 10K service intervals, maybe something in the Castrol family. The Titanium 5W-30 perhaps?


Too thin. With Castrol go with Syntec 0W-30 (aka German Castrol) or Syntec 5W-40.

-Dennis


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*this really gets complicated*

not really, don't overthink, use name brand oils and change at regular intervals and use something that covers your warranty.


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

gmikel said:


> not really, don't overthink, use name brand oils and change at regular intervals and use something that covers your warranty.


Good points, thanks all.

I learned the importance of protecting the warranty when the predecessor of our GTI (a 2003 Passat W8) suddenly developed issues with the valve timing system near the end of the power train warranty. VWOA zeroed in immediately on the records for the 5,000 mile services which indicated that I had supplied my own oil. I was able to document that the oil was VW 502 certified Mobil 1 0W-40. Would have been a costly misstep otherwise.

I remain a big fan of Redline, use it happily in some collector cars I have owned for decades.


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## BrutalDictator (Jun 28, 2012)

10w-30, for your climate.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

riversidevw said:


> I drive a much-loved 2010 GTI in a warm inland valley pf southern CA. To (hopefully) simplify things, today I'm looking at a single product line of synthetics such as Redline. Their first recommendation is 5W-30, as first alternative they suggest 5W-40, with acceptable alternatives of 0W-40 or 10W-40. As a first order of complication, Redline's 5W-40 additive package has been juggled to meet late-model Diesel CI-4 specs with reduced moly. At 23,000 miles, the car has required no added oil with the 10K mile change intervals (which I may reduce to 5K, more urban short trips than I like).
> 
> VWOA seems to take a dim view of 0W-40, even though the Porsche branch of the family pours it into all their products from containers labelled with VW approval codes. Perhaps it has more added viscosity modifiers than the others?
> 
> ...


technically you can use Mobil 1 Euro Formula 0w40 in the GTI and the Phaeton because it has the VW502.00 certification. You can also use it for the Boxster S, as it has Porsche A40 certification.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

riversidevw said:


> I drive a much-loved 2010 GTI in a warm inland valley pf southern CA. To (hopefully) simplify things, today I'm looking at a single product line of synthetics such as Redline. Their first recommendation is 5W-30, as first alternative they suggest 5W-40, with acceptable alternatives of 0W-40 or 10W-40. As a first order of complication, Redline's 5W-40 additive package has been juggled to meet late-model Diesel CI-4 specs with reduced moly. At 23,000 miles, the car has required no added oil with the 10K mile change intervals (which I may reduce to 5K, more urban short trips than I like).
> 
> VWOA seems to take a dim view of 0W-40, even though the Porsche branch of the family pours it into all their products from containers labelled with VW approval codes. Perhaps it has more added viscosity modifiers than the others?
> 
> ...


I am in warmer area (Alabama) and I am often in San Diego so I know what is temperature difference.
I use in my 2.0T M1 0W40 and now have in engine German Castrol 0W30. 
Both oils will work just fine.


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

*Castrol Specs????*

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...downloads/p,q/EDGE_Titanium_PDS_april2011.pdf

I just reviewed the product data posted by BP for the "Edge Titanium" products marketed in the USA. Disappointing, if only for the lack and/or scrambling of information. Are the viscosities shown "@ 210 degrees C,cst" perhaps those for 40 degrees C? One might hope for more detail than the insertion of "OK" for a number of properties. Their lists of manufacturer approvals are confusing, the UK webpage lists far more European approved applications than the USA page. Even the same product?

I recall that the "Syntec" branding was in the beginning a catchy label for an underwhelming but profitable product widely sold at quick oil change outlets back in the nineties. I was surprised when VW turned to Castrol to contract for lubricants. It's a great old name, but...

Thanks for the tip on the 0W-30 Castrol, I wasn't familiar with the term "German Castrol". Seems to have very different properties than the initial Titanium stuff. With the 502 approval, will likely go with this or the old Mobil 1 0W-40 I've used before.


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## BrutalDictator (Jun 28, 2012)

Castrol is notorious for not posting the exact specs on their PDS. What's normally referenced is the baseline specs for that particular oil visc, cold pumping, hot visc, etc. That's just how it is.

Castrol is the official oil of many many brands. I'm not at all picky with brand names. I'll buy and use any serviceable product if the price is right. I service too many cars to pay $8/q for oil I can get for $0 to $2 a quart. If I really want an oil, like some of the closeout QSS 5w-40 I just got, I'll go up to $4/q.


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## edyvw (May 1, 2009)

riversidevw said:


> http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...downloads/p,q/EDGE_Titanium_PDS_april2011.pdf
> 
> I just reviewed the product data posted by BP for the "Edge Titanium" products marketed in the USA. Disappointing, if only for the lack and/or scrambling of information. Are the viscosities shown "@ 210 degrees C,cst" perhaps those for 40 degrees C? One might hope for more detail than the insertion of "OK" for a number of properties. Their lists of manufacturer approvals are confusing, the UK webpage lists far more European approved applications than the USA page. Even the same product?
> 
> ...


 I use German Castroll or M1. You cannot make mistake with either one.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*summer/winter*

the only variables in summer and winter are temp. at start-up and a/c load. if your cooling system is up to snuff, the engine runs at 192f, summer or winter, the oil is cooled by the engine coolant and runs about 10-15 degress warmer. the a/c will make the engine work harder, but not enough to get excited about. a good 5w-xx is the best bet, the sooner you get the oil pumping the sooner things get lubricated, and it takes horsepower to pump oil too. there is no need for summer and winter oils. sorry no graphs or charts, just common sense.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

shell rotella t6.

/thread.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*a good choice*



Krieger said:


> shell rotella t6.
> 
> /thread.


unless you're under warranty, then a vag cert. oil.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

gmikel said:


> unless you're under warranty, then a vag cert. oil.


you haven't learned from BrutalDic yet?

His flavor of the week oil is vastly superior to VW-spec oil


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## BrutalDictator (Jun 28, 2012)

Could be...











Dum-dums should review the provided material prior to posting.

VW 502 is an old, and for most purposes obsolete spec.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*who gives a shirt*



BrutalDictator said:


> Could be...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it counts and as far as i can see you only give your recommendations and nothing more. if it blows up you won't be found!


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

*True Believer*

If I hadn't been consistently using a 502 certified oil in my Passat W8 about four years ago, would have been stuck with at least $4K in repair costs when the hydraulic valve timing gizmos on the little four-liter four-cam monster went amuck. Drive train was scattered about the dealer's shop floor four or five weeks. And I'm not usually not all that compliant, had been happily using Redline 5W-30 in an earlier Passat 1.8T. So until the GTI's warranty is behind me, I've "got religion" on that certification.

Just completed my first hands-on oil change on the GTI; used the German 0W-30 Edge, since VW still owes me one more filter and Castrol oil change in a few months. And I didn't replace the filter, gradually getting over my OCD in that regard. Not sure it makes a lot of difference to be switching brands frequently, but just seemed reasonable to keep it in the Castrol family, especially since a pint or so of the old stuff was left behind in the filter.

Thanks.


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

how can they know what oil is in there, if they themselves did not put it in there?

if that was the case, could they not therefore just deny all warranty work on the engine for people who change their own oil, or allude to it?


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

Krieger said:


> how can they know what oil is in there, if they themselves did not put it in there?
> 
> if that was the case, could they not therefore just deny all warranty work on the engine for people who change their own oil, or allude to it?


True enough, but...

Changing the oil in the B5.5 Passats was a major pain, with the removal/reinstallation of the plastic pan. I had the dealer do the changes with my oil, kept the receipts for the Mobil 0W-40 for the W8, even a carton of empty containers (which I usually requested be saved). BTW, once they failed to properly secure the belly pan on the 2001 B5.5 1.8T, dragged the thing next morning for miles on I-15 in the Cajon Pass. Service advisor insisted that I "broke it". They fired said service advisor. Sorry, that's way off topic. Dealer poured my Redline into the 1.8T several times, never offered any objection to using it. Fortunately nothing went wrong.

Today was the first oil change I've done myself since I traded off the old L48 Camaro in the spring of '76. I don't plan on boasting about it at the dealership when I go in about 6K miles from now for the "free" service. But just out of habit, I saved the receipt for the Castrol Edge,


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

*On your own?*

If you choose to rely entirely on your own oil changes, guess the obligation to document the service intervals and oils employed becomes yours. A little like the IRS... we are obligated to prove our deductions, they don't need to disprove them. Perhaps keeping a simple log and receipts?

In fairness, my dealer wasn't unreasonable or adversarial when the question was raised by VWOA. I just described to the service director the specific product and the VW approval codes. Doubtless it helped that all the oil changes on the W8 were done on schedule at his shop, not my driveway. My plan for the GTI is to continue scheduled dealer service at the 10K mile intervals, do extra oil changes myself.

Wish the approval code thing had not become so arbitrary. I've long had a lot of respect for Redline's products and people (including Dave Granquist), will continue using their oil when I can. But I also realize the world has plenty of compleat idiots entirely willing to drive fine machinery into the ground as quickly and thoroughly as possible.

ADDED: I just realized the contradictions in my old 2003 W8 owner's manual. For the 9+ quart oil change, the "tips and advice" booklet requires "VW 503 01 or 505 21 or ILSAC GF3 SAE 5W-40".

That was superseded by a later insert stating "use any high quality synthetic-based oil with the following specifications: ACEA A3 specification: SAE 5W-40, SAE 10W-40 or SAE 15W-50. These VW specifications may also appear on the oil container: VW 502 00, 503 01, 505 01". Odd, especially the viscosity ranges.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

the oil ambiguity lead to the 1.8t longitudinal engine sludge fiasco

in 2004, vw put it plainly... has to meet Vw 502.00 standard (TDI excluded)


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

*Ambiguity or complete disarray?*



BsickPassat said:


> the oil ambiguity lead to the 1.8t longitudinal engine sludge fiasco
> 
> in 2004, vw put it plainly... has to meet Vw 502.00 standard (TDI excluded)


Struck me as odd that VW was comfortable (in summer of 2002) with !0W-40, even 15W-50 oils. Seems very un-VW. Surprised they didn't suggest tossing in a few pints of STP. Incidentally, I left out the part about using small amounts of 5W-30 only for topping off when nothing else was available.

Not sure if this was applicable to other 2003 models (my updated insert is specific to the W8). Makes me also wonder if some early service issues were already becoming evident with that model.


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## riversidevw (Oct 19, 2006)

*Great sludge fiascos*



BsickPassat said:


> the oil ambiguity lead to the 1.8t longitudinal engine sludge fiasco


Other manufacturers have also messed up badly. In 1998 model year, Mercedes adopted extended oil change intervals, but in North America they continued to stubbornly resist the synthetics for which those intervals had been intended. Led to clattering engines and extended warranty coverage.

Mercedes had long been extremely conservative in their recommendations. In the very early 80's I once brought a jug of Delvac 1 synthetic for dealer service of a 300TD wagon. Delvac was one of the superior products of the era. I was severely scolded.

Just means that I try to comply with manufacturer's requirements, but I realize that they aren't necessarily works of divine inspiration.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*nobody even mentions toyota*



riversidevw said:


> Other manufacturers have also messed up badly. In 1998 model year, Mercedes adopted extended oil change intervals, but in North America they continued to stubbornly resist the synthetics for which those intervals had been intended. Led to clattering engines and extended warranty coverage.
> 
> Mercedes had long been extremely conservative in their recommendations. In the very early 80's I once brought a jug of Delvac 1 synthetic for dealer service of a 300TD wagon. Delvac was one of the superior products of the era. I was severely scolded.
> 
> Just means that I try to comply with manufacturer's requirements, but I realize that they aren't necessarily works of divine inspiration.


AND THEY HAVE MORE CLASS ACTION SUITES BY THAN ANYBODY. they just work pr better than vag's tipical attitude.


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