# Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story



## momosport1 (Sep 16, 2001)

Those honda advertisers are at it again.
Friend of mine scanned this from a mag and i wanted to share it with you all.









Momo


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## Braga_Dub (Sep 8, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

Honda... They need new slogan's...
Anyone want to post an "Offensive ad" law suit?


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## TommyD (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

Its fast, its cheap, and its coming to the US this year or next. I'm kinda pissed about it specs. It beats out my RSX.


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## [email protected] (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

This ad has been around for a while.


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## burzum (Oct 19, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

There are many cars in europe wearing the "gti" logo's. It's not especially directed at the golf GTI, but the whole "gti" class of cars. That ad is not from the u.s. It's a civic type R( the new civic si coming out is still not the same as the euro type R), not available in the states. Lawsuit? yeah right. VW did not invent or coin "gti". VW maybe started the hot hatch thing here, but not in europe or japan.


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## WannaCorrado (Apr 30, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

I don't get it - That Civic is slower than a 1.8T GTI.. So where is the bye-bye part fit in?


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## G-Laddy (May 23, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (WannaCorrado)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I don't get it - That Civic is slower than a 1.8T GTI.. So where is the bye-bye part fit in?[HR][/HR]​Read the post above you!


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## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (WannaCorrado)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I don't get it - That Civic is slower than a 1.8T GTI.. So where is the bye-bye part fit in?[HR][/HR]​Oh dear!
Another misguided individual...that CTR will kick the Golf GTI into touch in every area of performance...I can assure you...i've driven one.
Most magazines have tested it at about 6.3-6.5 seconds to 60MPH...I don't see too many 1.8Ts doing that.
As a point of interest...that car is the performance bargain of the decade - there is nothing to touch it for pure performance, for that price. Period.
It may not be the best built, or best looking...but in performace terms there's not a Golf out at the moment that can hold a candle to it...4-Motion included. Fact.
Glen.


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## squishy12 (Apr 10, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

maybe it'll encourage vw to get their 24v vr6 w/6 speed out earlier, if its lighter tha nthe current mk 4's it'll be wiping its ass with civics
btw, the new civics look like minivans, people hate them so much the previous generation body style has gone up in value, also, chec kou; that hatch spoiler http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


[Modified by squishy12, 3:51 AM 2-11-2002]


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## QcGTI (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (squishy12)*

one more time: hondah civic suck, it's ugly and made for ricers


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## candywhitepassat (Jan 14, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

That is an English ad, and it's referring to either the Peugeot 306 GTi, or the 307 GTi.


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## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (squishy12)*

quote:[HR][/HR]maybe it'll encourage vw to get their 24v vr6 w/6 speed out earlier, if its lighter tha nthe current mk 4's it'll be wiping its ass with civics
[HR][/HR]​Well it's already out here...albeit with 4wd...and the CTR will still wipe the floor with it. There is no way any Mk4 will ever be less weight than that Civic...face it.

quote:[HR][/HR]That is an English ad, and it's referring to either the Peugeot 306 GTi, or the 307 GTi.[HR][/HR]​Actually it's a British add








...and it IS refering to the golf GTI as well as the ones you mentioned, as well as many others.
If you read the add correctly you will have noticed that they are talking about the demise of the GTI catagory....this includes the Golf does it not?
I just can't understand why some of you can't accept that Honda has built a better standard performance car...why is this so hard to swallow?
The Golf GTI can't compete with the CTR on pure performance...even in its 180BHP 6 speed guise...even the 24v V6 fails as a drivers car...a grand tourer maybe...but not a true hot hatch.
OK...it's not up to VW build quality, but it is a rear drivers car...and anyone who has the chance, and the balls to try one, will find out.
Glen.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Well the Eurotrash Turbo Rabbit will still smoke it even with out a turbo 14s in the 1/4 and pulling .91 G's so you know what Bye Bye SI. Oh and the Rabbit will outbrake it too.









[Modified by eurotrashrabbit, 1:14 PM 2-11-2002]


[Modified by eurotrashrabbit, 1:15 PM 2-11-2002]


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## Bartnik (Oct 26, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (eurotrashrabbit)*

Just read the current Car & Driver, they had a comparo on the Civic Si vs. the GTI vs. the Focus SVT. 
The US-spec Civic Si only has 160 hp. In C&D's tests, the GTI 1.8T was a second and a half faster to 60 than the Civic Si. That said, the GTI came in last in the test due mostly to the handling it seemed. The GTI was faster than either the Civic Si or the Focus SVT.
Now the Civic Type R is another story but we're not getting that one in the US just yet.


[Modified by Bartnik, 11:41 AM 2-11-2002]


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## vrsik (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Bartnik)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Just read the current Car & Driver, they had a comparo on the Civic Si vs. the GTI vs. the Focus SVT. 
The US-spec Civic Si only has 160 hp. In C&D's tests, the GTI 1.8T was a second and a half faster to 60 than the Civic Si. That said, the GTI came in last in the test due mostly to the handling it seemed. The GTI was faster than either the Civic Si or the Focus SVT.
Now the Civic Type R is another story but we're not getting that one in the US just yet.

[Modified by Bartnik, 11:41 AM 2-11-2002][HR][/HR]​I know that's soo funny! And the GTI still did better on the skid pad than the Si !!


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## speedrcr (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

That pic looks like a 2 door Chrysler minivan with fancy wheels. Just because it's fast doesn't mean I'd want to drive it. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## QcGTI (Sep 28, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (speedrcr)*

oh... it's so true add a sliding door and it's a minivan... pfhahaha http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## TommyD (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Bartnik)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Now the Civic Type R is another story but we're not getting that one in the US just yet.[HR][/HR]​2004


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## Damir (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (TommyD)*

quote:[HR][/HR]* Its fast, its cheap, and its coming to the US this year or next. I'm kinda pissed about it specs. It beats out my RSX. 
*[HR][/HR]​Acctually, the Civic Type-R is slower than a RSX by 0.01 sec. It weighs more than a Type-S. Did You also know that the base RSX runs 15.9 sec 1/4 mile!? Faster than the new Si! Compared to 16.2 in a Civic Si. WEIGHT, is the reason. The new Civic may be one of the worst attempts to copy a Ford Focus, silly Honda. I personally think they should've put the 2.0 i-VTEC in the EX Coupe, added the same '99 Si blue, and the RSX' 6sp gearbox! Now then maybe I would buy one. But the new crappy Si... for $19,000!!!??? Hell no. I'll rather take a $13,000 Ford Focus, add some mods, and stomp the silly Si.


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## Batan (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Damir)*

"Bye bye GTi."
Can we smell a complex?


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## TommyD (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Damir)*

quote:[HR][/HR]* Its fast, its cheap, and its coming to the US this year or next. I'm kinda pissed about it specs. It beats out my RSX. 
*
Acctually, the Civic Type-R is slower than a RSX by 0.01 sec. It weighs more than a Type-S. Did You also know that the base RSX runs 15.9 sec 1/4 mile!? Faster than the new Si! Compared to 16.2 in a Civic Si. WEIGHT, is the reason. The new Civic may be one of the worst attempts to copy a Ford Focus, silly Honda. I personally think they should've put the 2.0 i-VTEC in the EX Coupe, added the same '99 Si blue, and the RSX' 6sp gearbox! Now then maybe I would buy one. But the new crappy Si... for $19,000!!!??? Hell no. I'll rather take a $13,000 Ford Focus, add some mods, and stomp the silly Si.[HR][/HR]​Well the 0-60 for the CTR is 6.4s, the RSX-S is 6.7s. What you described as the SI you want is basically the CTR.


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## nikov_17 (Feb 4, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (TommyD)*

Whoa? I thought this was good news! Now all those wannabe's out there can buy this new car and smash the hell outta them, all the while, wondering why? Isn't it because basically every car can go fast, but it takes a VW driver to drive fast, responsibly, I always thought that was the image.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

quote:[HR][/HR]maybe it'll encourage vw to get their 24v vr6 w/6 speed out earlier, if its lighter tha nthe current mk 4's it'll be wiping its ass with civics

Well it's already out here...albeit with 4wd...and the CTR will still wipe the floor with it. There is no way any Mk4 will ever be less weight than that Civic...face it.

That is an English ad, and it's referring to either the Peugeot 306 GTi, or the 307 GTi.
Actually it's a British add








...and it IS refering to the golf GTI as well as the ones you mentioned, as well as many others.
If you read the add correctly you will have noticed that they are talking about the demise of the GTI catagory....this includes the Golf does it not?
I just can't understand why some of you can't accept that Honda has built a better standard performance car...why is this so hard to swallow?
The Golf GTI can't compete with the CTR on pure performance...even in its 180BHP 6 speed guise...even the 24v V6 fails as a drivers car...a grand tourer maybe...but not a true hot hatch.
OK...it's not up to VW build quality, but it is a rear drivers car...and anyone who has the chance, and the balls to try one, will find out.
Glen.
[HR][/HR]​Perhaps a Golf...but it won't touch a Renault Clio....face it. Not all GTI's should be included in the ad...bad mistake. CTR makes too many compromises...not needed in today's day and age...the rough, harsh, and uncomfortable cars of yesterday aren't necessary...unless it's a Honda.


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## mk2jetta (Aug 23, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Integrale)*

i guess it's time that VW put the TT's 250 bhp 1.8T in a GTI to shut their trap for good


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## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Integrale)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Perhaps a Golf...but it won't touch a Renault Clio....face it. Not all GTI's should be included in the ad...bad mistake. CTR makes too many compromises...not needed in today's day and age...the rough, harsh, and uncomfortable cars of yesterday aren't necessary...unless it's a Honda.[HR][/HR]​Have you actually driven both of these cars?
The CTR is very similar in performance to the Clio Sport 172...but with a bit more. It is over 1 second quicker to 100MPH than a Clio.
The CTR handles in a similar manner...but accelerates better, brakes better and I think looks better. The CTR also has one of the finest gearboxes / shifts ever fitted to a mass produced car.
The Clio has better steering lock and is perhaps slightly softer...but overall theres not much in it...I guess it comes down to personal choice...I prefer the CTR as the seating position in the Clio is far too high for my liking...and the interior is crap!
So in answer to your statement above...the CTR WILL touch a Clio Sport 172 and even outshine it in places...but it's close.
And the CTR is not compromised to any great degree...it's not harsh at all...stiff, yes. But not harsh at all. And the body style allowes as much practicality as you can handle.

quote:[HR][/HR]
i guess it's time that VW put the TT's 250 bhp 1.8T in a GTI to shut their trap for good
[HR][/HR]​Oh no...here we go again...
The usual Vortex answer...add more power.
Do you really think that a 250BHP Golf would be a CTR eater? It would still be an overweight lard ass without a great chassis...it could have 500BHP but it would still be heavy, and adding more power means more bodt strengthening, bigger brakes and more weight...even more weight.
More power is not the answer. You still have to change the momentum of a heavy car...all that energy has to go somewhere. More power is not going to make a CTR eater of the Golf...a lighter better controlled chassis may though.
VW lost this plot in the change from Mk2 16v to Mk3 GTI.
Allow me to ellaborate:
Why do you think the Lotus Elise is go good? High power? 115 BHP - I think not!
It's all down to weight...less weight means you can get away with lesser brakes and improve unsprung weight, lighter bodyshells, lighter engines...better handling.
But if you think that more power and fast straight line speed equals a great drivers car, then fine. Ignorance is bliss.
Glen.


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## vrsik (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Ess Three is right on the nose!
But VW is not willing to sacrafice Safety, sound deadening and comfort for performance.
This is why VW is a PEOPLE'S CAR!!!!


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## Under_Dog (Dec 15, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (vrsik)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ess Three is right on the nose!
But VW is not willing to sacrafice Safety, sound deadening and comfort for performance.
This is why VW is a PEOPLE'S CAR!!!![HR][/HR]​ditto!! 
I really think after the MKII they gone away from the GTi theme.







While I love a nice MK4 lowered with nice 17s, it'll never have the same charactor as a 16v MkII. 
At least Honda appears to try to keep the small, light, and quick theme with the new CTR. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Although I really don't know about the new body style. I would have to seen it in person.


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## TommyD (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (nikov_17)*

quote:[HR][/HR] Isn't it because basically every car can go fast, but it takes a VW driver to drive fast, responsibly, I always thought that was the image. [HR][/HR]​The lasting image I have from my jetta was the vertical view of the road when I took a turn hard. So are you saying honda owners have worse driving records then VW drivers??? Can you substantiate this with any facts besides your bias? VW may be moving to the semi-luxury market, but I don't think they will be succesful.


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## SpreadTheJoy (Sep 8, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (vrsik)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ess Three is right on the nose!
But VW is not willing to sacrafice Safety, sound deadening and comfort for performance.
This is why VW is a PEOPLE'S CAR!!!![HR][/HR]​ Good point !! VW should try to become a Bimmer not a Honda civic


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## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (saved_GLX)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Although I really don't know about the new body style. I would have to seen it in person.[HR][/HR]​The CTR looks far better in the metal than in any picture I have seen...and to my eyes anyway, it's very colour sensitive - black being the best.
Once you have seen one close up, it starts to grow on you, and after you have driven one you will grin manically and admit that Honda have indeed got it right with the CTR...only a LSD could improve things a little!
It's a drivers car...and when it drives that well...who cares if it only looks 7/10ths? Not me!
It's not a car to suit all though...but it will suit a lot of people.
Glen.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Have you actually driven both of these cars?
The CTR is very similar in performance to the Clio Sport 172...but with a bit more. It is over 1 second quicker to 100MPH than a Clio.[HR][/HR]​It's obvious you're a Honda fan...I'm not. The Type-R is a far more "purposefully" built car than the Clio...the fact that the Clio will, in my opinion and in the opinions of a few esteemed European automotive magazines, outshine and outhandle a CTR says volumes about the car. 
I have driven a Clio but not a CTR...but to me Honda products are ordinary, bland, and over-rated. They may perform well but they certainly don't have much character. 
I've never liked the feel of Honda's and I never will...they feel cheap, very flimsy, and certainly don't exude the feeling of solidity. Their gearbox and transmissions may have the best linkage and smoothest feel, but they certainly are weak and prone to chattering clutchs only after a couple of floggings. I've always thought, and so have the auto-critics, that the French hatchbacks are perhaps the worlds best handling to date...and here is no exception. The Clio just keeps taking the prize.
Honda puts their best foot forward with their Type-R models....and still aren't chosen over the more "ordinary" attempts of other directly competitive manufacturers. 
I agree, simply increasing power isn't the answer for all cars...but for the Clio and its likes it is...a Clio fitted with an equivalent powerplant to the CTR will more than adequately level the straight line acceleration playing field. In terms of handling...the Clio has generally been considered a better handling car over a larger variety of surfaces...a racing track is completely irrelevant as a benchmark with such cars because 1) I don't take the racing track to work, and 2) real-life roads have serious defects. 
And again, Renault hasn't, in my opinion, tried quite as hard in producing a potent car with the Clio as has Honda with their TypeR's. I wonder what would happen if they did....


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## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Integrale)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
It's obvious you're a Honda fan...I'm not. The Type-R is a far more "purposefully" built car than the Clio...the fact that the Clio will, in my opinion and in the opinions of a few esteemed European automotive magazines, outshine and outhandle a CTR says volumes about the car. 
I have driven a Clio but not a CTR...but to me Honda products are ordinary, bland, and over-rated. They may perform well but they certainly don't have much character. 
[HR][/HR]​Actually, I'm not an accross the board Honda fan...but I am partial to a Type-R, as they are a very special breed indeed.
Mostly, I find the Hondas soulless and bland - fantastic engineering, but a bit bland style wise...this is definately not true of the Type-R's. So we are not too far apart in these opinions.
Reading a broad specrtum of magazines will tell you that the Clio Sport 172 and CTR are very well matched indeed...with the honours split fairly evenly. The CTR is faster and handles fractionally better in the right hands...whereas the Clio if far more easily accessiblr to the average motorist.
quote:[HR][/HR]
I've never liked the feel of Honda's and I never will...they feel cheap, very flimsy, and certainly don't exude the feeling of solidity. 
[HR][/HR]​Sorry, but this is really amusing me! Anyone touting the merits of Renault build quality and solidity against Hondas...that is just too funy for words!
VW or Audi defiunately. Ford, maybe...but Renault / Peugeot / Citroen...no way!!
quote:[HR][/HR]
Their gearbox and transmissions may have the best linkage and smoothest feel, but they certainly are weak and prone to chattering clutchs only after a couple of floggings. 
[HR][/HR]​I've never heard or experienced any of this.
Any engine, if abused, will wear the clutch and produce these symptoms...but the Honda Type-Rs are no worse than any other performance machine.
quote:[HR][/HR]
I've always thought, and so have the auto-critics, that the French hatchbacks are perhaps the worlds best handling to date...and here is no exception. The Clio just keeps taking the prize.
[HR][/HR]​I have to agree that the french do indeed make some of the finest...they seem to stick to the light weight, decent power formula and have produced some of the best ever...if not the best ever with the Mk1 Clio Williams.
But nowadays the competition has caught them up, and surpasses them in places. The advantage of the French hot hatches is that they are easily accesible by yhr average person...whereas the CTR for example, requires a bit more input to reap the rewards...but overall I prefer the CTR. That's not to say the Clio isn't very good...because it plainly is.
But I don't mind putting in a bit of effort for higher rewards.
quote:[HR][/HR]
Honda puts their best foot forward with their Type-R models....and still aren't chosen over the more "ordinary" attempts of other directly competitive manufacturers. 
[HR][/HR]​Fair comment...the Type-R models are perhaps too 'hardcore' for the average Joe. These are true drivers cars that require a high level of driver ability to extract the best from them...not everyone wants this from a car...I don't mind, and niether do most true enthusiasts...but it's personal choice.
The Type-Rs will never sell in big numbers...they are a niche model. And long may they remain so, because as soon as they get too popular Honda will be expected to soften them up to please the electric seats / damped grab handle brigade!
quote:[HR][/HR]
I agree, simply increasing power isn't the answer for all cars...but for the Clio and its likes it is...a Clio fitted with an equivalent powerplant to the CTR will more than adequately level the straight line acceleration playing field. 
[HR][/HR]​Hmm...so the Clio Sport 172 isn't fitted with a 2.0 16v engine then?
I'd call that equivelant...wouldn't you?
quote:[HR][/HR]
In terms of handling...the Clio has generally been considered a better handling car over a larger variety of surfaces...a racing track is completely irrelevant as a benchmark with such cars because 1) I don't take the racing track to work, and 2) real-life roads have serious defects. 
[HR][/HR]​I disagree. The CTR is sold in the UK as a car that will do the school run during the week and do the trackdays at weekends. The whole trackday scene is growing at an alarming rate here in the UK, and the type of person who buys a CTR is exactly the sort of person who IS interested in its track manners, as they will most probably take it on a track at some point.
Like I say, the CTR is marketed at a slightly different market to the Clio, the drivers car / trackday market.
And as you said earlier...the Clio is a better car for everyday use in all conditions because it is a littly softer edged...but people like myself will put up with that trade off in order to reap the benefits on the track.

quote:[HR][/HR]
And again, Renault hasn't, in my opinion, tried quite as hard in producing a potent car with the Clio as has Honda with their TypeR's. I wonder what would happen if they did....[HR][/HR]​Renault Sport V6 anyone?
Or doesn't this count? A specially engineered drivers car...special engine and running gear? I would say so...
I guess you pays yer money and makes yer choice...basically, I'm not a fan of the latest Clio. I find it really cheap, and the driving position is appalling with the high seating position...
I'm not anti Renault BTW, the Mk1 Clio Williams is one of my all time favourates, and I'd take it over a Sport 172 anyday.
Hey, but at least you have driven a Clio, so you can comment with authority...for which I thank you...there are entirely too many people passing judgement without ever having driven the cars they are condemning!
Phew...that was a lot of typing...
Glen.


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## Mr Sparkle (Feb 20, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Very interesting stuff Ess Three...
I am also interested in the CTR, but I have only read up on it a bit. All your information was very interesting. 
You said you are in the UK? Correct? Did the CTR's just hit the lots there? I would really like to hear about your test drive.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Christ Glen!!! If you're not careful you'll get carpal tunnel syndrome...lol.
quote:[HR][/HR]
Mostly, I find the Hondas soulless and bland - fantastic engineering, but a bit bland style wise...this is definately not true of the Type-R's. So we are not too far apart in these opinions.[HR][/HR]​They are indeed...as I said...I;ve never driven a CTR...but I have driven an Integra Type R. To me, even that felt like a very average car...capable yes....but still has no real soul. Many will disagree but that's my impression of Honda products....still felt like an ordinary ITR, sounds like an ITR, and unless it's a Ferrari 8 or 12 running at 7K+, a Honda 4 cyl sounds like a 4 cyl...just plain rough and noisy.
quote:[HR][/HR]
Reading a broad specrtum of magazines will tell you that the Clio Sport 172 and CTR are very well matched indeed...with the honours split fairly evenly. The CTR is faster and handles fractionally better in the right hands...whereas the Clio if far more easily accessiblr to the average motorist.[HR][/HR]​Yes they are well matched...which again brings my point to light...you're comparing a specialized car to what you yourself say is a more accessible car...to me it's a big plus for the Clio to be heralded in such a way.
quote:[HR][/HR]Sorry, but this is really amusing me! Anyone touting the merits of Renault build quality and solidity against Hondas...that is just too funy for words! VW or Audi defiunately. Ford, maybe...but Renault / Peugeot / Citroen...no way!![HR][/HR]​Funny you say that....I didn't find the Clio's interior to be poor at all...and while French cars haven't had the best of reps for quality, their latest models are rather good...Honda's are good but nothing special lets face it.
quote:[HR][/HR]
I've never heard or experienced any of this.
Any engine, if abused, will wear the clutch and produce these symptoms...but the Honda Type-Rs are no worse than any other performance machine.[HR][/HR]​Can't say...I'm comparing my two past Golfs to my past Civic and I can honestly say that gearbox/trannies on my VW's were solid as hell...the Civic's just feels plain weak. Smooth they are...

quote:[HR][/HR]Fair comment...the Type-R models are perhaps too 'hardcore' for the average Joe. These are true drivers cars that require a high level of driver ability to extract the best from them...[HR][/HR]​This is where we think differently I believe...I never have considered cars in this category as "drivers" cars...they are great for driving and capable...but not driver's cars. I also beg to differ in saying the TpR's are too "hardcore"...if anything Honda has tried to make their limits attainable easily...not with too much effort. Honda's are meant to be easy to drive. NOW...it may take ALOT of effort to drive them...because of their high strung nature...but that's different than taking alot of effort to drive them well. 
quote:[HR][/HR]Hmm...so the Clio Sport 172 isn't fitted with a 2.0 16v engine then?
I'd call that equivelant...wouldn't you?[HR][/HR]​I don't believe Renault has tweaked their engine as much as Honda has.

quote:[HR][/HR]Renault Sport V6 anyone?
Or doesn't this count? A specially engineered drivers car...special engine and running gear? I would say so...[HR][/HR]​Not really, I wouldn't..this car's forte was meant to be more in acceleration...it's handling...for some mysterious reason doesn't seem to be on par with the average Clio's.
It's always good to have a healthy debate..something all the more often lacking on these forums lately.


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## VRC-YA (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

They tested the DE Gti here in North America 0-60 at 6.5 sec and 1/4 at 15.0. So its not to far from the CTR and for it bein heavy thats damn impressive for me. How about the new Seat Leon Cupra R? 210hp, 6 speed, sport suspension, and bigger brakes to go with it. VW seriously needs to wake up though and make the Golf as standard and the GTi into a performance machine. Meaning Lighter, stiffer suspension, bigger brakes, and stop giving us underrated engines and boost up the hp!!!


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## VRC-YA (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

Also if its after the young crowd...what young person is going to buy a GTi 1.8T and not chip it??? The CTR is fast but it WILL NOT beat a chipped 1.8T with exhaust, downpipe, and intake!!! Put headers, exhaust, and intake on CTR and it still won't beat it. 13.9-14.6 1/4 in a 2900-3000 lb car is sick!


----------



## TommyD (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (VRC-YA)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Also if its after the young crowd...what young person is going to buy a GTi 1.8T and not chip it??? The CTR is fast but it WILL NOT beat a chipped 1.8T with exhaust, downpipe, and intake!!! Put headers, exhaust, and intake on CTR and it still won't beat it. 13.9-14.6 1/4 in a 2900-3000 lb car is sick! [HR][/HR]​Oh yeah I forget a chipped 1.8T VW is unbeatable. They are like superhuman er supercars.


----------



## VRC-YA (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (TommyD)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Also if its after the young crowd...what young person is going to buy a GTi 1.8T and not chip it??? The CTR is fast but it WILL NOT beat a chipped 1.8T with exhaust, downpipe, and intake!!! Put headers, exhaust, and intake on CTR and it still won't beat it. 13.9-14.6 1/4 in a 2900-3000 lb car is sick! 
Oh yeah I forget a chipped 1.8T VW is unbeatable. They are like superhuman er supercars. [HR][/HR]​I didn't say that did I! We're are comparing a Civic Type-R with a Gti. I'm just saying that a 1.8T for just $500 or so, can take out a CTR. Spend more and you'll have a cheaply modified little pocket-rocket. Stock on Stock I would figure the CTR would win. Not too many people pass up that chip though so...


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (VRC-YA)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I didn't say that did I! We're are comparing a Civic Type-R with a Gti. I'm just saying that a 1.8T for just $500 or so, can take out a CTR. Spend more and you'll have a cheaply modified little pocket-rocket. Stock on Stock I would figure the CTR would win. Not too many people pass up that chip though so... [HR][/HR]​Until you hit a corner...then bye bye GTI as the CTR dissapears into the sunset. You do have corners in NA don't you?
Stock on stock, you are correct, the CTR would win...Chipped GTI against stock CTR on any road with corners and the CTR still wins. Sorry, but that's the way it is. 
For goodness sake, I have to work hard to keep them behind me in an S3 quattro on a twisty road...so I shouldn't think a chipped GTI with it's well known handling prowess should pose too much of a problem for your average CTR driver!
Of course...I was forgetting that the mark of a real performance car is its ability to run a fast quarter mile...oh dear! How sad.
There is more to a good drivers car than standing quarters you know!
What about handling? Braking? Chassis balance?
Or is the real mark of a performance car its ability to have a chipped 1.8T engine, damped grab handles and 'cool' blue dash illumination.
How very shallow....
Glen.


----------



## 98vwgti (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

hey! i like the blue gauges!! that civic is nasty, but fast


----------



## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Until you hit a corner...then bye bye GTI as the CTR dissapears into the sunset. You do have corners in NA don't you?
Stock on stock, you are correct, the CTR would win...Chipped GTI against stock CTR on any road with corners and the CTR still wins. Sorry, but that's the way it is. For goodness sake, I have to work hard to keep them behind me in an S3 quattro on a twisty road...so I shouldn't think a chipped GTI with it's well known handling prowess should pose too much of a problem for your average CTR driver![HR][/HR]​Glen,
it's also well known that the S3 doesn't handle as well as it theoretically should..at least that's what I have read in review after review.
And in all fairness, the shortfall of the GTI is NOT it's chassis...it's the lousy suspension setup. I am 100% confident that the GTI could handle better than a CTR given an equal treatment. If you want to compare stock for stock, the two cars are made for entirely different performance envelopes and operating regimes. The fall-short image of the current GTI as a "GTI" is psychological more than anything else. Everyone except VW has yet to grasp that today's GTI is NOT what yesterdays was.
But again, I have no doubt whatsoever that the GTI HAS the potential to take on a CTR. It's potential just isn't used in stock form.


----------



## VRC-YA (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I didn't say that did I! We're are comparing a Civic Type-R with a Gti. I'm just saying that a 1.8T for just $500 or so, can take out a CTR. Spend more and you'll have a cheaply modified little pocket-rocket. Stock on Stock I would figure the CTR would win. Not too many people pass up that chip though so... 
Until you hit a corner...then bye bye GTI as the CTR dissapears into the sunset. You do have corners in NA don't you?
Stock on stock, you are correct, the CTR would win...Chipped GTI against stock CTR on any road with corners and the CTR still wins. Sorry, but that's the way it is. 
For goodness sake, I have to work hard to keep them behind me in an S3 quattro on a twisty road...so I shouldn't think a chipped GTI with it's well known handling prowess should pose too much of a problem for your average CTR driver!
Of course...I was forgetting that the mark of a real performance car is its ability to run a fast quarter mile...oh dear! How sad.
There is more to a good drivers car than standing quarters you know!
What about handling? Braking? Chassis balance?
Or is the real mark of a performance car its ability to have a chipped 1.8T engine, damped grab handles and 'cool' blue dash illumination.
How very shallow....
Glen.[HR][/HR]​Oh sorry...upgrade the suspension system which isn't too expensive then u tell me. I'm not saying the CTR sucks! Sh!t that car is prepped for racing basically. With a 200hp VTEC, Race tuned-suspension, and gear-box. Stock on stock of course it'll have the advantage. Gti isn't that far from it though. A few suspension tweaks and that car is right in there. They claimed the focus's suspenion better than the CTR. VW made thier cars to mushy for ride comfort and forgot about the sport minded drivers. But thats what aftermarket is for...


----------



## Gelly (Dec 31, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Integrale)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I am 100% confident that the GTI could handle better than a CTR given an equal treatment. If you want to compare stock for stock, the two cars are made for entirely different performance envelopes and operating regimes.[HR][/HR]​Ah the voice of reason.








The 1.8T appeals to a broad range of people, not just the enthusiast. Why do you think they offer an automatic transmission? The GTi is meant to be a highway cruiser, not a sports car. I can tell you this: if I was going on a road trip (which I do plenty in the Summer) I sure as heck wouldn't want to be driving a CTR.
So basically you are comparing apples to oranges. A car tuned for performance to a car built to appeal to the masses.


----------



## VRC-YA (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Also you wanna talk about Auto-cross. Some kid down here has a VR6 chipped, exhaust, intake, and of course sway bars and coilovers. Seened him take out an WRX, S4, M3 and some turbo cars. Don't forget our cars have good torque so when u do brake on twisties or something you'll be right back up. The CTR does have to brake at some point.


----------



## biznab (Feb 21, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (VRC-YA)*

who cares about Honda? Everyone has one, but not VW's, there a cut above any old Honda.


----------



## VRC-YA (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (biznab)*

quote:[HR][/HR]who cares about Honda? Everyone has one, but not VW's, there a cut above any old Honda.







[HR][/HR]​Well put...


----------



## RacerXXX85 (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Ess Three..............
Why dont you go buy one then ?????
a little black minivan just for you and............. you can sweat your self
I agree the Mk4's are heavy but Im sure im not the only one here that hates hearing about Gay Porn(Honda's)


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (RacerXXX85)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ess Three..............
Why dont you go buy one then ?????
[HR][/HR]​I may do just that, as it happens I am considering buying one...at least that way I can offer an informed opinion based on honest comparison...which is something you can't do, since:
A) You have never driven a CTR
B) You don't have the option to buy a CTR even if you wanted one.
C) You don't have the mental capacity to accept that there may be a better drivers car out there...one that isn't made by VW...or more to the point, one that's made by Honda.
The CTR is not the best car in the world (unlike a chipped 1.8T obviously







) but for the money, there is nothing to touch it in my opinion...I wouldn't want one as my only form of transport, but as part of the fleet...yeah, I may just buy one - but I'll buy it because I want one...not to please anybody else...I certainly wouldn't buy a car to please others...just to be in the 'in crowd'...that would be plainly shallow. 
Because, I'm like a few other true enthusiasts on here...I'll buy a car based on it's merits...not it's badge. I couldn't give a toss about the opinions of people like yourself.

quote:[HR][/HR]
I agree the Mk4's are heavy but Im sure im not the only one here that hates hearing about Gay Porn(Honda's)[HR][/HR]​Bravo. What a compelling grasp of the English language you obvuiosly have. Very mature.
Grow up...when you've actually owned a few cars from different maunfacturers, you'll look back and realise what a childish pr*ck comments like that have made you appear to be.


----------



## RacerXXX85 (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Ess Three
LOL 
can you go to a Honda web sight and play with your self there?????


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (RacerXXX85)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ess Three
LOL  
can you go to a Honda web sight and play with your self there?????
[HR][/HR]​Why, am I upsetting you? 
Awww...diddums! 
I'd have thought that owning 2 VW's and 1 Audi was justification enough for me to be here...wouldn't you?


----------



## VRC-YA (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*



> Ess Three..............
> Why dont you go buy one then ?????
> 
> I may do just that, as it happens I am considering buying one...at least that way I can offer an informed opinion based on honest comparison...which is something you can't do, since:
> ...


----------



## Dubster (Oct 10, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (VRC-YA)*

I was walking to the liquor store the other day when I saw an ITR come screaming down the street. First gear to redline (assumption but probably accurate), and then a chirp of tires into second. It didn't sound beautiful by any stretch of the word but it did sound menacing. The visceral quality of a car that just keeps revving like that is inspirational if you ask me. 
After he had passed, my fiance' looked at me and said, "That car sounded like it was ready to explode!" I, of course, just smiled and said, "Not likely." We should all feel fortunate to know that a major automobile manufacturer would take the chance of producing something like the ITR or the CTR. Only a true automotive enthusiast would create such a finely tuned automobile. Honda, apparently, has quite a few of them running around the engineering department (much to the dismary of marketing I'm sure).


----------



## Chu Lee (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Bartnik)*

Oh yes we are! It is exactly like the Type R sold in Europe and Japan: 200HP, 6-Speed, light weight body, 17" wheels, Recaro type seats, and a body kit. 
The car will do 146 MPH and 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. What's even better is the price is expected to be around $18K! So there you have it. A car that will rip VW a new you know what at a bargain price!
I'm getting one!


----------



## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (RacerXXX85)*

HEY PEOPLE....
CHILL OUT...just because Ess likes another car other than VW's it doesn't mean you should insult him....if you people don't like Honda's say so and END IT THERE. The guys got some valid points and DEFINITELY has an edge on 95% of the members here in terms of the types of cars available to him. Christ I didn't think having a normal debate with people could be so hard.
I openly admit I don't like Honda's...it's my personal choice and I do believe other manufacturers can make cars like Type-Rs if then want to...but I'm not going to take Ess and put him on the chopping block for not agreeing with me.
This is one of the reasons why I rarely post on this damned board anymore....because 80% of the time its a waste of time...intelligent conversations are far and few between and insults are all and everyday events...is that what VW owners are becoming? Hope not...


[Modified by Integrale, 7:10 PM 2-25-2002]


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## WannaCorrado (Apr 30, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

I didn't realize this was a British ad, hence the statement. In the States, the new 160hp Civic R is slower than a GTI 1.8t. I don't see how not reading the little text on the bottom of the ad makes me misguided







.
If anyone is misguided, it must be Car and Driver that recently got their GTI 1.8t to 60mph in 6.5 seconds - I guess that was one of the "not many" 1.8t's that can do that (musta been chipped, right?







).
You think I can put "Fact." at the end of my post now? nah, I won't do that















quote:[HR][/HR]I don't get it - That Civic is slower than a 1.8T GTI.. So where is the bye-bye part fit in?
Oh dear!
Another misguided individual...that CTR will kick the Golf GTI into touch in every area of performance...I can assure you...i've driven one.
Most magazines have tested it at about 6.3-6.5 seconds to 60MPH...I don't see too many 1.8Ts doing that. 
As a point of interest...that car is the performance bargain of the decade - there is nothing to touch it for pure performance, for that price. Period.
It may not be the best built, or best looking...but in performace terms there's not a Golf out at the moment that can hold a candle to it...4-Motion included. Fact.
Glen.[HR][/HR]​


----------



## TommyD (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (WannaCorrado)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I didn't realize this was a British ad, hence the statement. In the States, the new 160hp Civic R is slower than a GTI 1.8t. [HR][/HR]​I guess your talking about the new Civic Si. Its a hole lot less expensive then a 1.8T. Personally, Si is too rounded in the front. Due to the low price etc, I'm sure i'll see one with a giant wing on it any day now, but hey I see plenty of VW rice around too.


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (WannaCorrado)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I didn't realize this was a British ad, hence the statement. In the States, the new 160hp Civic R is slower than a GTI 1.8t. I don't see how not reading the little text on the bottom of the ad makes me misguided







.
[HR][/HR]​Well now...let's see.....
The missguided was refering to the people that seemed to take offence to the add referring to the GTI...and assuming incorrectly that this was the Golf GTI. These people obviously do not understand that the GTI is a class of vehicle, not just a VW model.
But as it happens, it also applies to all the people who only seem to look at 0-60 times. 
I mentioned it because the advert does...but in reality the 0-60 is not the CTR's strong point as it's lack of traction will show up on all but the best road surface...the missguided part is aimed at people who cannot comprehend (for whatever reason) that the CTR will murder the Golf GTI on almost every area of performance driving...the acceleration through the gears, the handling, the braking.
I guess you never read all the other posts above...
quote:[HR][/HR]
If anyone is misguided, it must be Car and Driver that recently got their GTI 1.8t to 60mph in 6.5 seconds - I guess that was one of the "not many" 1.8t's that can do that (musta been chipped, right?







).
[HR][/HR]​Yeah, and that makes it gospel for all GTI's huh?
evo mag tested an S3 at 6.2...but I'm damn sure mine won't do that.
A good driver, a good engine and a good day = result. I'm not going to argue with it, as it's a spectacular result...but it doesn't mean that all GTI's are equal.
The said same evo mag tested the Golf GTI 1.8T at 8.5 seconds. So where does the truth actually lie? Somewhere in between for most of our cars I would imagine.
quote:[HR][/HR]
You think I can put "Fact." at the end of my post now? nah, I won't do that















[HR][/HR]​If you are listing facts...then sure.
If you are voicing your opinion without ever having driven both the cars you are referring to, and are therefore unable to give a subjective, unbiased opinion...then no, you probably shouldn't say it as fact.
I own neither a Mk4 Golf GTI or a Honda CTR...but I have considered buying both, and spent many hours driving them in varying conditions. I would also seriously consider buying either cars...so I'm not against either of them.
I was simply pointing out the facts that are plain, for anyone who has actually driven them, to see.
I'm not saying I like the fact that the CTR is a far better drivers car than the Golf GTI. I would love the GTI to be as good (or better) than the CTR, as I am a bit of a VAG fan...I do actually own 3 VAG performance cars, and my g/f has another VAG group performance car...but facts are facts. 
If I want a drivers car as good as the CTR, I'll have to buy a non VAG vehicle like a CTR or Clio Sport 172..and that again is a fact.
VAG just don't make great drivers cars anymore....great cars - yes, absolutely...but not great drivers cars.
If you want one of them, you have to look elsewhere.
Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.
Glen.



[Modified by Ess Three, 3:00 AM 2-27-2002]


----------



## Mbiggy (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (QcGTI)*

Funny, I just toasted on on the way to work in my 89 16v. The fact that they have to advertise like that only shows the GTi's superiority over hondas


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Mbiggy)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Funny, I just toasted on on the way to work in my 89 16v. 
[HR][/HR]​ 
You're taking the micky aren't you? Surely?
I assume your sentance was meant to say "I just toasted one on the way to work in my 89 16v" as opposed to "toasted on" which you wrote.
If so, I seriously doubt it...we are talking about the new Civic Type-R, not long released in the UK...and not yet (if ever) available in the US. So tell me this...how did you manage to toast one of those when you can't buy them in the US?
quote:[HR][/HR]
The fact that they have to advertise like that only shows the GTi's superiority over hondas[HR][/HR]​Ughhh...*bangs head against wall*
You obviously don't read the previous posts before shouting your mouth off. 
As it has been said previously...the advert is a British ad referring to the 'GTI' class of car. 
The VW GTI's, Peugeot GTIs, The Nissan GTI's, Ford GTI's and all the rest I can't really be bothered to list.
Believe it or not...there are other cars called GTI's available outside NA...a whole range of Hot Hatches that are collectively refered to as GTIs...only in your country is the Golf GTI known as a different model under the GTI name...and only in your country would people take a fairly witty advert to heart, and spit your dummies out over it.
C'mon people...lighten up.
Glen.


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## vrsik (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

Honda made a great car..big whoop! All this means is that VW has got to build another "REAL" Hot hatch. Or just finally build a polo or lupo 1.8t with SEAT's Agile Chassis Concept. 
Who knows... maybe VW is too wound up in comfort and safety to build a light nimble tossable car like a CTR. It's ok..if that's what you are looking for.. either go buy a CTR (you won't be dissapointed) or build youreself a nice mk1 or 2 1.8t with every conceivable chasis strengthening technique and Coilovers!
It's as easy as that. Don't count on VW to build a CTR competitor...it's not their Bag!!!


----------



## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (vrsik)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Honda made a great car..big whoop! All this means is that VW has got to build another "REAL" Hot hatch. Or just finally build a polo or lupo 1.8t with SEAT's Agile Chassis Concept. 
[HR][/HR]​The sad thing is, VW already builds one of the best Hot Hatches around at the moment...something that is true to the Mk1 GTI ideal, light, good handling, quick, nimble...but most of all great fun...and with all the comfort and safety associated with VW. 
The Lupo GTI.
Let's face it...one of the great things about the Mk1 was it's size...small and neat...so is the Lupo GTI.
Sure, it's not the true drivers car that the CTR is...it's not as fast / good handling as the Clio Sport 172...but it's better built, I would argue safer, and an absolute hoot to drive....this thing really brings VW to the top of the Hot Hatch fun stakes.
125BHP VVT engine, 6 speed box, aluminium doors, wings and bonnet, HID lights, bodykit, decent sized brekes, wide tyres...you all know the story...
I say again, it's not as hardcore a drivers car as the CTR. It's not as quick anywhere as the Clio...but it's as much fun, if not more...and it has VW build quality. 
I don't think the 1.8T would improve this package...it would be too much weight in the nose, and spoil the handling...if only VW would give you all the chance to drive one of these...you would see that VW still can make a top level Hot Hatch....and boy, what a job they have made with the Lupo GTI...sublime!!
Glen.


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## vrsik (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

I saw the lupo GTI ijn the summer of 2000 in wolfsburg and spent at least 30 minutes inspecting the whole car. Unfortunately didn't get to drive it though!







But i did get to drive a lupo sdi for a couple days and really loved it. 
Maybe next time!!


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## abdvr6 (Oct 1, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (vrsik)*

i just want to know why the hell honda people are coming on the vortex page???????????


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## Ess Three (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (abdvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i just want to know why the hell honda people are coming on the vortex page???????????[HR][/HR]​Oh...i'm sorry. 
I didn't realise that you had to be an car-lind lemming that can't appreciate the good in other car manufacturer, to come in here.
Stupid me...I thought there were some real car enthusiasts, who also happen to drive VW's, that hung out in here. How very missguided of me.
Believe it or not...there are other good cars out there...outwith your beloved VW...I can accept that whilst still putting my money into VWs...why can't you?
BTW, I don't class myself as a Honda person...I've owned them, yes. I would own them again. I can appreciate that cars like the Type-Rs are great drivers cars...but I still drive VWs and an Audi...so does that mean, that in your opinion, I shouldn't voice my opinion here?
Glen.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Ess Three)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i just want to know why the hell honda people are coming on the vortex page???????????
Oh...i'm sorry. 
I didn't realise that you had to be an car-lind lemming that can't appreciate the good in other car manufacturer, to come in here.
Stupid me...I thought there were some real car enthusiasts, who also happen to drive VW's, that hung out in here. How very missguided of me.
Believe it or not...there are other good cars out there...outwith your beloved VW...I can accept that whilst still putting my money into VWs...why can't you?
BTW, I don't class myself as a Honda person...I've owned them, yes. I would own them again. I can appreciate that cars like the Type-Rs are great drivers cars...but I still drive VWs and an Audi...so does that mean, that in your opinion, I shouldn't voice my opinion here?
Glen.[HR][/HR]​Glen....
don't break a sweat over it...you just can't win with these guys....LOL.


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## 1.8TGRL (Nov 12, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

Ewwww...would anyone honestly buy one of those things?
AMY


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## TommyD (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (1.8TGRL)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ewwww...would anyone honestly buy one of those things?
AMY[HR][/HR]​Thats funny since the new Golf V (sorry can't find the link at the moment) looks surprising similiar Ewwwwwwwwww......


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## Damir (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (TommyD)*

*Honda M.C. of America is deciding to bring the Civic Type-R to America. Called the Civic SiR probably* (to protect sales from the -yet to come- RSX Type-R, which should arive in 2004). And VW needs a MK5 GTI with about 2800lbs with 2.0T 200hp, 210lbs torque/ft, 6speed, limited slip, agressive stance, that can also turn, as much as go. Maybe when VW needs a RWD GTI!? That would be awesome!!


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## vrsik (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Damir)*

quote:[HR][/HR]*Honda M.C. of America is deciding to bring the Civic Type-R to America. Called the Civic SiR probably* (to protect sales from the -yet to come- RSX Type-R, which should arive in 2004). And VW needs a MK5 GTI with about 2800lbs with 2.0T 200hp, 210lbs torque/ft, 6speed, limited slip, agressive stance, that can also turn, as much as go. Maybe when VW needs a RWD GTI!? That would be awesome!![HR][/HR]​We already have a civic SIR in canada...and it's a civic hatchback with a 160hp i-vtec. I belive it's called an SI in the states!


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## boostn (Sep 24, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (QcGTI)*

quote:[HR][/HR]one more time: hondah civic suck, it's ugly and made for ricers[HR][/HR]​







time to add some more chlorine to the gene pool.


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## Mr Sparkle (Feb 20, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (boostn)*

Man, half you guys are just plain stupid. You guys trashed a really interesting post with such stupid comments. Some guy who has driven this car came to enlighten us a little, and for some reason, half of you got all defensive. I drive a Honda but I love VW's. I registered with this site because I am a CAR enthusiast, and who knows, maybe somewhere down the road I will but a VW. I also am registered at Club Si, a much smaller site dedicated to the Civic Si (SiR). 
I thought people were bad there, you guys are just as bad, if not worst. 
And for the record, there has been plenty of updates on upcoming VW, Nissan, Toyota vehicles over there and they all get plenty of praise. 
Maybe the Honda crowd isn't the greatest, cheaper cars for younger teens that think their cars are "the sh*t"...but I still stand by the fact that Honda makes some great cars, and we are not all "ricers", and we appreciate other cars too. 
I think the new Civic looks pretty ugly, but you gotta appreciate the package, and the price you pay for it. 
Go ahead and trash Honda, but don't knock how they build cars, because they are right on par with VW. Both companies are very capable.



[Modified by Mr Sparkle, 7:07 AM 3-5-2002]


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## Damir (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Mr Sparkle)*

Appreciate? The new Ford SVT Focus is better in every way. Except that it has a F and not an H on the steering wheel! 2000 was a nice car, that I love (btw, If I did not buy the GTI, it would have been a RSX Type-S). Why don't we review "what" you get:
SVT Focus vs Civic Si:
170hp *VS* 160hp
145lbs/ft Torque *VS* 132
6 speed *VS* 5 speed
Better Tires *VS* Sucky tires
17 inch wheels *VS* 15 inch
Cheaper *VS* more Expensive
Quicker *VS* Slower
The Best handling FWD car on the market today *VS* handles worse than a '99 Civic Si
And so on and so on. Sorry, but Honda has lost it this time...
I would skip the Civic Si this time, and wait for the RSXTR or CSiR (197hp, 6sp, 8000rpm redline) that are coming in 2004!


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## Mr Sparkle (Feb 20, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Damir)*

n/m


[Modified by Mr Sparkle, 10:01 PM 3-5-2002]


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Mr Sparkle)*

quote:[HR][/HR] Man, half you guys are just plain stupid. You guys trashed a really interesting post with such stupid comments. Some guy who has driven this car came to enlighten us a little, and for some reason, half of you got all defensive. I drive a Honda but I love VW's. I registered with this site because I am a CAR enthusiast, and who knows, maybe somewhere down the road I will but a VW. I also am registered at Club Si, a much smaller site dedicated to the Civic Si (SiR). 
I thought people were bad there, you guys are just as bad, if not worst. 
And for the record, there has been plenty of updates on upcoming VW, Nissan, Toyota vehicles over there and they all get plenty of praise. 
Maybe the Honda crowd isn't the greatest, cheaper cars for younger teens that think their cars are "the sh*t"...but I still stand by the fact that Honda makes some great cars, and we are not all "ricers", and we appreciate other cars too. 
I think the new Civic looks pretty ugly, but you gotta appreciate the package, and the price you pay for it. 
Go ahead and trash Honda, but don't knock how they build cars, because they are right on par with VW. Both companies are very capable.
[Modified by Mr Sparkle, 7:07 AM 3-5-2002][HR][/HR]​Get used to it Mr. Sparkle, the quality and mentality of people on this forum has noticeable deriorated over the past two years oh so. Sad really.


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## the governor (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (VRC-YA)*

when i am ready to hop on the ban wagon and go mainstream i will start listening to pop boybands and trade in the vw for a dork, until then performeance or not I will stick with the dub. right now i listen to slayer


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## Godlike (Mar 18, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Bartnik)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Just read the current Car & Driver, they had a comparo on the Civic Si vs. the GTI vs. the Focus SVT. 
The US-spec Civic Si only has 160 hp. In C&D's tests, the GTI 1.8T was a second and a half faster to 60 than the Civic Si. That said, the GTI came in last in the test due mostly to the handling it seemed. The GTI was faster than either the Civic Si or the Focus SVT.
Now the Civic Type R is another story but we're not getting that one in the US just yet.

[Modified by Bartnik, 11:41 AM 2-11-2002][HR][/HR]​The GTI came in last because the Focus's chassis development spanks the GTI's.. Fact.
Ford can make some lame cars, but they have some very talented boys and girls working for them.. If I remember correctly, the GTI while being faster to 60 (oh what a true performance test) was outpaced on the track by a few seconds.. Is that really a shock to you? it shouldn't be. The SVT was more fun to drive, and if my playing around with a ZX3 is anything to base it from, it will win in the 'smiles per mile' area too.
Kids, the GTI is too heavy and soft these days.. sure you can mod it to keep up, but as been suggested before what happens when the other guys start modding their cars? I realize we will not get the Type R(can't pull sales from the RSX can we?) but I suspect the Si will still be a good match for the GTI especially for the people who realize that there is road beyond the quarter mile.. It's been resting on its butt since the Mk3, and while it is nice to see dedication to a brand, it is also foolhardy to be blind to better and more fun cars..
The CTR's build quality is not in question, and has one of the best engines(oh yeah, Honda does know how to make good engines dontcha know) around.. and considering the price, it's a much better deal than the GTI is. 

ESS3 has a good point with the Lupo being the new GTI, but when you consider the Polo is now about the same size as a Mk2 Golf, and the Lupo is not far off a Mk1, you might see where I am going with my thoughts that the Mk4 is too big, heavy, and soft these days.. 
The rest of you who say that Honda drivers are not welcome, I say this: It is a fool who shuns the chance to learn and experience different things. If I see someone on the road with a clean Honda, or Ford, or whatever, I make a point on complimenting them and their efforts. It's called being a car enthusiast, not a close-minded fanatic. I have been a car fan ever since i went to the Birmingham Car show and was complimented because i was the only 7 year old who knew to put the clutch in before shifting.. 22 years later, I drive a car that i wrote a check for, and do not owe any money on because of it. Could i afford a faster car? Sure. I The TDI was chosen because right now i want to save my cash for something much cooler in the future rather than getting something, and having to mod it just to be competitive against the crowd. And once again, there is more to driving than the straight line. It's always entertaining being able to pass up a badly driven, but potentially much faster car.. People seem to have this issue with being passed by a diesel


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## Dobolina (Feb 10, 2001)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (tenacious jett)*

quote:[HR][/HR]when i am ready to hop on the ban wagon and go mainstream i will start listening to pop boybands and trade in the vw for a dork, until then performeance or not I will stick with the dub. right now i listen to slayer[HR][/HR]​Great post.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Godlike)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The GTI came in last because the Focus's chassis development spanks the GTI's.. Fact.
Ford can make some lame cars, but they have some very talented boys and girls working for them.. If I remember correctly, the GTI while being faster to 60 (oh what a true performance test) was outpaced on the track by a few seconds.. [HR][/HR]​The GTI was beaten in handling NOT BECAUSE of a lesser chassis...because of a lousy suspension...poorly matched shocks and springs. The GTI's chassis is an excellent chassis...but a chassis can only do so much if the suspension system is poor. Not to say that VW shouldn't put in a better suspension setup for the cost of the car. It definitely should. But don't mix poor chassis with poor suspension.
And yes, Ford does make lame cars...ask a Focus owner 2-3 years afterwards after some miles put on the car and let's see the car do what it did when it was new.


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## WannaCorrado (Apr 30, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Integrale)*

Focus is one of the best Fords in years in many respects, including reliability, which cannot be said about VW. I know that Foci in Europe are German-built, and not exactly the same as in the US, but it was voted the most reliable vehicle in Germany for 2001 - that must say something. 
From what I read, Focus is pretty good to its owners, even down the road.


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## okan_gti (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (candyweißpassat)*

quote:[HR][/HR]That is an English ad, and it's referring to either the Peugeot 306 GTi, or the 307 GTi.[HR][/HR]​maybe 206 GTi....those are nice...my friend was thinkiing of importing one...
it might be a peugeot...a while ago peugeot and renault and hyundai and all those ****ty cars are actually getting alot better...way better quality...anyways...my parents own a VW polo classic...it doesn't look like a normal polo if anyone is interested in seeing it i'll find a pic for you...


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## Rallybug (Dec 29, 2000)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (Damir)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Appreciate? The new Ford SVT Focus is better in every way. Except that it has a F and not an H on the steering wheel! 2000 was a nice car, that I love (btw, If I did not buy the GTI, it would have been a RSX Type-S). Why don't we review "what" you get:
SVT Focus vs Civic Si:
170hp *VS* 160hp
145lbs/ft Torque *VS* 132
6 speed *VS* 5 speed
Better Tires *VS* Sucky tires
17 inch wheels *VS* 15 inch
Cheaper *VS* more Expensive
Quicker *VS* Slower
The Best handling FWD car on the market today *VS* handles worse than a '99 Civic Si
And so on and so on. Sorry, but Honda has lost it this time...
I would skip the Civic Si this time, and wait for the RSXTR or CSiR (197hp, 6sp, 8000rpm redline) that are coming in 2004![HR][/HR]​Read the posts - the ad and messages in this thread have been about the Civic Type-R (the CSiR you talk about) - not the Civic Si in the US!


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## G60VeeDub (Mar 4, 2002)

*Re: Civic Type R Vs VR6 same old story (momosport1)*

The problem here is..... that you guys are talking about being car enthusiasts, and thats all fine and dandy with the exception that you are talking to DIE HARD VW owners and nothing you say, do, or post can change that. 
p.s. My buddy owns a civic with headers supercharger and a bunch of other goodies, and after he drove a supercharged VR6 he put his car up for sale.


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