# ....Water Meth Injection.....good or bad idea?



## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

So so far one of the best kits or at least I think is the best kit in my opinion is the Snow Performance http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=8 ....does anyone currently have one? How often do you have to add meth to the tank? is it worth it? ....Also Alot of people keep telling me if I choose to do this I should get my car Dynotuned......do we even benefit from this? Ive heard that they normally cant do the things apr and other companies can? im tired and lost someone help


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## Audiguy84 (Nov 14, 2006)

Its worth it and it does make power. Getting it tuned does help. But spend your money on wheels as I've given you another option :laugh:


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## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

Audiguy84 said:


> Its worth it and it does make power. Getting it tuned does help. But spend your money on wheels as I've given you another option :laugh:


I have enough money for both...lol


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Get it. Chris runs on on the ko4 s4 and it made a noticeable improvement. He uses the WW reservoir for the fluid


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I've been contemplating the same. I'm pretty much full bolt ons minus WM. I'd like to but a kit & see if I can squeeze/tune a little more power out of the ko4.


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## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

I think im gonna haha i wanna get the whole legit setup but im mostly concerned about how often i have to add/buy more meth....if it chugs it like gas then **** it ill wait till i have another daily


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## jamestown478 (Mar 10, 2009)

I have the snow performance kit on my s4 and noticed a huge gain. Def. worth doing it.


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## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

jamestown478 said:


> I have the snow performance kit on my s4 and noticed a huge gain. Def. worth doing it.


How often do you have to add fluid???!!!!


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## jamestown478 (Mar 10, 2009)

320hpBlackTT said:


> How often do you have to add fluid???!!!!


I daily drove it every summer and with me beating the hell out of it I would refill maybe every other week


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## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

jamestown478 said:


> I daily drove it every summer and with me beating the hell out of it I would refill maybe every other week


and how expensive is the stuff? like how much does it cost you to refill it haha


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## Mantvis (Jan 1, 2010)

How much do you put in?
What the meths price?
Where do get it?


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## jamestown478 (Mar 10, 2009)

I use my windshield washer resevior.
I buy my methanol from my race gas supplier for 20 bucks for a 5 gallon jug of it
I then mix it 50/50 with distilled water.


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## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

jamestown478 said:


> I use my windshield washer resevior.
> I buy my methanol from my race gas supplier for 20 bucks for a 5 gallon jug of it
> I then mix it 50/50 with distilled water.


thats not bad at all.....


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

My buddy uses a bottle of that HEET and fills equal parts water. Says he fills it up one a month. I'm down.


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## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

warranty225cpe said:


> My buddy uses a bottle of that HEET and fills equal parts water. Says he fills it up one a month. I'm down.


wish snow performance would do a group buy with the safe system **** lol


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

320hpBlackTT said:


> the safe system


Hu?


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## 320hpBlackTT (Dec 25, 2008)

warranty225cpe said:


> Hu?


it automatically basically puts the system in limp mode if you somehow run the meth too low so it doesnt ruin anything


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## jamestown478 (Mar 10, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> My buddy uses a bottle of that HEET and fills equal parts water. Says he fills it up one a month. I'm down.


heet will only get you the cooling advantages of the meth system. Running actual water/methanol also bumps the octane more.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

jamestown478 said:


> heet will only get you the cooling advantages of the meth system. Running actual water/methanol also bumps the octane more.


Heet is 99% methanol and 1% Proprietary Additive. That's the reason why, some choose to run it as a substitute for pure methanol. The result, at least Octane wise, should be the same- altough I wouldn't personally run it or recommend it because of the unknown additive.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

For the OP:

Water injection is great way to boost your engine's performance safely. There are many companies nowadays selling kits but anyone who has been using water injection long enough will tell you that the 3 big names in the game are #1 Aquamist, #2 Labonte and #3 Snow.
I choose to run a Labonte Kit because of the incredible support that [email protected] Labonte provides, right here in the US. Richard L @ Aquamist is also a good help but they are based in Europe. I'd rather support the US business but I have to admit that Aquamist product is the nicest of the 3. Snow is also popular but does not provide the kind of support the other 2 main players do.

Water injection works two ways. One it removes heat by vaporization allowing to run higher boost levels without injesting lava. The second attribute to water injection is the octane boost that effectively raise the knock/detonation threshold. So basically water injection will allow you to push the agressiveness of the car's tune without blowing it up since water/meth does not in itself increase the power. 

There are different philosophy, when it comes to running water injection. Some (like me and the rally crowd) run straight water, the masses run a mix of methanol or alcohol with distilled water, while another minority swears by running 100% meth. IMO, the reason for the different mix is tuning.

Most tuners/DIYers or should I say tooners go the easy way(tuning wise) and do a *50/50 mix*. Their reasoning is that a mix provides (in theory) the best of both worlds. The reality is that it's cheaper than straight meth or alky and easier to tune than straight water(raise the boost, add some timing and keep the AFR on the rich side).

*Water* has the best cooling capacity, it removes more heat than both alcohol and methanol.
Most don't know but water does not have and octane rating since it's not a fuel/combustible(its resitance to detonation or auto ignition is infinite). If the evaporation process is happening in the combustion chamber, water has the capacity to raise the detonation threshold to seriously high levels. The key is to get the water to vaporize in-cylinder(direct port injection or post TB injection).
The key to such a set up is really small nozzles to fully vaporize the water, a strong ignition(in-cylinder vaporization makes ignition blow out and misfires a lot more likely) and leaning out the AFR past the conventional comfort zone.

*Straight meth* is the juice of choice for a small group(mostly big turbo guys). My take on it is that it's an easy way to substitute for a lack of big enough injectors. Since the meth is at such high level, it becomes and alternate fuel and impact the AFRs greatly. A BT car that was maxed out by it's fuel supply, rather than its boost level can easily take advantage of this approach.

My advice to having a safe, reliable water injection setup:

-Get a good kit with failsafe(s)

-If you're going to run meth, make sure the pump is rated for it and at what percentage.

-Please do yourself a favor and stay away from winshield washer fluid, heet or anything that has additives or dye that will eventually clog your nozzles and as a result potentially blow your motor. Stop being cheap and buy straight methanol or denatured alcohol(I personally like acohol better because it's less corosive) and mix it by weight, not by volume.

-Do your research on what size nozzle is good for your turbo/boost and mix of fluid(100% meth calls for different nozzle sizes than 50/50 mix or 100% water)

- Nozzle placement is key to a good setup. Pre TB injection is good at lowering IAT, while post TB nozzle placement does a better job at raising octane levels and preventing detonation(I run a combination of both pre and post TB nozzles of different sizes).

- Make sure you do a pro install. Pump vs solenoid vs nozzle placement is important(solenoid too far away from nozzles will cause dripping). Make sure the whole system is leak free, especially with meth.

Water injection, when done right, can be a good way to make extra power. I was able to safely run 30 psi of boost and 6* of extra timing on the stock K04 before I added E85 to the mix(I'm not saying you should but it's possible). My IAT and EGT were so low that I deleted one of the SMIC to reduce pressure loss. My setup consist of a Labonte MAF controlled kit(the maf kits are much better at controlling the spray at rapid on/off throttle situations that are seen, when racing). I run a staggered nozzle set up with (2)M1 nozzle pre TB and a M.5 nozzzle post TB). I choose to run the windshield tank to keep things simple and compact. With a trunk mounted tank, there is a lot more lines to leak and the pump has to work harder to prime things up at first spray. I should also mention that I run twin solenoids, one controls the post TB nozzle alone while the second one run the split line going to the other two pre TB nozzles.


*This what IAT looked liked on a hot summer day pull, at 30 psi heat soaked:*



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



*This is an IAT graph rolling into the throttle from a cruise*



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*alcoholinjectionsystems.com*

I have the alcoholinjectionsystems.

I have been running this for 2yrs now and I would never run without it. The heat here in South Florida is horrible.

In fact I just changed my gasket on the intake mani and my TB is clean as a whistle.
I spray continually between 15 to top boost which is about 20psi.

I used to get the mix from snow but I researched and I use the yellow bottle of HEET and the same bottle of water. I love it.

Best mod I have done hands down. $300 best money I have spent


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Again, heet or washer fluid leave residue from their additives that could clog nozzles overtime. Mixing should also be done by weight, not volume. A bottle of heet with the same bottle filled with water is not a 50/50 mix.


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## jamestown478 (Mar 10, 2009)

for the price of how cheap you can get meth it is way better to just get a jug of it over heet. Def. cheaper and better to use.


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*price!*

Well the meth is far more expensive than bottles of heet.

Yes! I keep an eye on the lines and clogging etc,. I mean everything you have said is true expect for the meth to be cheaper, I have to disagree.

Yes, and your supposed to use distilled water as well but guess what I have been using tap water and heet for two years now with no problems.

So take it for what its worth for those wanting to get into the water meth.

Hell people have used windshield washer fluid as long as it has more meth than cleaner and no dye!

One 12oz bottle of heet and one 12oz bottle water Is not 50-50? if not what is it?


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*Heet!*

There is no additives in heet its 100% methanol. Its the yellow bottles!


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

coachvtt said:


> There is no additives in heet its 100% methanol. Its the yellow bottles!


Do your research, I'm not pulling this stuff at out my a$$.
MSDS for heet 99% methanol and 1% proprietary additive.

Do this in your garage (my neighbors think I'm crazy:laugh, burn cap-full of heet and you will be left with an oily residue. That oily residue is what's going to get deposited in your nozzles. If you want to risk having a clogged nozzle at full boost it's up to you but don't recommend it to others without letting them know(or knowing for yourself) the risks involved.

*MSDS for yellow bottle of heet*
http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/MSDSHeet.htm


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

coachvtt said:


> Hell people have used windshield washer fluid as long as it has more meth than cleaner and no dye!
> 
> One 12oz bottle of heet and one 12oz bottle water Is not 50-50? if not what is it?


Just because people have used washer fluid that doesn't mean it's right. A lot of people in the EVO world have had their engine go boom because of their system failing(clogged nozzles under boost). Do you have to follow that kind of trend? I'd guess no, the cleaning chemicals in washer fluid has no place in my engine and it should not in yours either. 

I'm no chemist but again if you had done your research or did the mixing yourself in a controlled manner you'd know that methanol/alcohol/heet does not make a 50/50 mix with water.
Mixing the two result in a chemical reaction that produces a lot of heat(not kidding, the 1st time I did it, I thought something went wrong) and also result in the wrong mix of water and alcohol/meth.
*The right way, is to do it by weight, not volume*

I'd post chemical data to back up what I'm saying but it's time that you do a little research and educate yourself on something that you're using on a daily basis.
BTW methanol can be found for cheap also if you do some research(Local gokart or dragster shop is your best bet)


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*1%*

1% of additive is hard to stop me from using the Heet!

I'm sure your not pulling this out of you A$$. Not here to argue facts.

Just here to discuss and justify opinions, thats all. Not calling you out what so ever.

I just think the Heet is working fine for me and the Meth is more expensive. thats all.

I did not say I disagreed on what you said. Only on the cost of Meth vs Heet!

I just looked at the lines and nozzels on Sunday for the first time in two years and they were fine.
two years of heat and tap water no clogs and my TB was clean as a whistle like new after 114,000
miles. 
Just my opinion and two cents for what its worth.
12oz bottle of Heet $1.39


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*ok!*

So how would you mix it by volume?

and not bottle to bottle?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

coachvtt said:


> So how would you mix it by volume?
> 
> and not bottle to bottle?


*Use weight* 
Put X volume of HEET/meth/alky in a container and weigh it.
Use the same container and add Y amount of distilled water untill you reach the desired weight
Mix X and Y to get a 50/50 mix :beer:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

coachvtt said:


> 1% of additive is hard to stop me from using the Heet!
> 
> I'm sure your not pulling this out of you A$$. Not here to argue facts.
> 
> ...


I hear you and understand where you are coming from (trust me, I'm all for doing things on a budget but it has to be right). It's like saying "I ran my turbo car on 89 octane gas for two years and everything seems fine"; fine until something bad happen that could have been prevented by doing things the right way.

Methanol is $5 a gallon around me, so why would you or anyone risk a potential problem? I personally don't like or run meth because it's very corosive and flamable, plus straight water(when done right) provide the same or more potential for power. In the winter, I mix 30% alcohol with water to prevent freezing.


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*ok!*

I run the meth and water for cooling purposes only if it gives me that extra boost in power so be it.
Mixing with water is not that flamable in such a fine mist am I right? 
Even if I go 49% meth and 51% water which alot of guys do

Now as per the Evo guys. Well who knows what else they do and from what I'm told those engine blocks dont' last as long as the 1.8t of the VW/Audi's. I don't know for that as a fact as that I'm not an Evo guy and not many have over 100,00 miles and still running strong. Maybe maybe not.
I'm a VW/Audi guy!
I will mix my next batch that way, by weighing it.

Very good!


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

No wonder Coaches TT is so slow:laugh:


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## cablekid (Apr 26, 2011)

Think running this on a Stock Audi TT K03S turbo will improve it any?

How much gain are we talking about ?


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*gain?*

I'm not looking for gains if there is it's slight.
I'm using the water/meth for cooling purposes.
I mean it gives me a shot of adrenalin like running a cool engine all day.
In the mornings the engine is cool and runs well when the engine temps are up to normal its a little sluggish. With the water/Meth its like running a cool morning engine all day.


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*ok!*



warranty225cpe said:


> No wonder Coaches TT is so slow:laugh:


Yea ok!


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

coachvtt said:


> I'm not looking for gains if there is it's slight.
> I'm using the water/meth for cooling purposes.
> I mean it gives me a shot of adrenalin like running a cool engine all day.
> In the mornings the engine is cool and runs well when the engine temps are up to normal its a little sluggish. With the water/Meth its like running a cool morning engine all day.



Only using it for chemical cooling is like using a smart phone to only make phone calls. 
Take advantage of the increased knock threshold and bump boost and timing accordingly.


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## bvgoosedd (Mar 5, 2009)

i use devils own. i have to fill it like every other week but i really don't get on my car too much. i also use their premix. it's $10 the shop that i go to has em. but i rather pay ten evey two weeks and know that im safe. i havent really tuned for it yet but i do notice a difference all ready.


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*timing!*



madmax199 said:


> Only using it for chemical cooling is like using a smart phone to only make phone calls.
> Take advantage of the increased knock threshold and bump boost and timing accordingly.


Well I have the Giac 93+ software and my guy says that as not necessary
If you say to bump boost I have with the mbc and timing should adjust itself according to GIAC.
Or? are they blowin smoke?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

coachvtt said:


> Well I have the Giac 93+ software and my guy says that as not necessary
> If you say to bump boost I have with the mbc and timing should adjust itself according to GIAC.
> Or? are they blowin smoke?


Your guy is clueless if he said that, start learning how to do stuff yourself or get a new guy.
*Timing does not adjust itself*. If the ecu was already pulling timing to protect the engine from detonation due to heat or lack of octane, you will get the few points of timing correction back.

What you want is a flashed, increased timing curve, since your knock limit is much higher because of the lower IAT and higher octane from water injection. I was able to add 6* of timing at 30 psi, on a single 5 gal/hour nozzle(I also have a giac flash). I would say 5* points can be easily bumped, since you will not be increasing your boost as dramatically as I did.

As far as boost is concerned, a conservative 2-3 psi increase should be pretty safe and give you a nice power increase. Your guy should be able to do it with software but seeing how inconpetent most flash dealers are, it may not be the case. You could also do it mechanically with your MBC.
I'd also suggest, if your going to do it, to make sure you have a way to log everything so you are sure, nothing is out of line.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Can any chip tuned car tune for water meth? Can I advance timing with an APR file?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> Can any chip tuned car tune for water meth? Can I advance timing with an APR file?


Yes you can, as far as I know(I have heard of locked APR ecu), advance timing and modify any of the open adaptation channels.

Lemmiwinks(serial) or Unisetting(USB) are free sofwares that will make the modifications.

* The following is copied and pasted from my E85 tuning notes*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5271998-Madmax-E85-tuning-notes

*This is what the unisetting screen look like*:
Most of the values should be pre set a 100% or 0%



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

There are 14 channels and that's their basic definition:

*Channel 1: Additive Engine Idle Speed Offset *
This channel allows one to adjust the engine idle speed in steps of 10
rev/min. 

*Channel 2: Tweak on fuel enrichment based on increasing loads (i.e. accel pump) *
This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment term that is proportional to load
rate of change and that acts to enrich full when the engine load is
increasing. This is equivalent to an accelerator pump function 

*Channel 3: Tweak on fuel enrichment based on decreasing loads *
This is very similar in function to channel 2 but adjusts a term
that works to decrease fuel when engine load is decreasing. 

*Channel 4: Tweak on Startup Fuel Enrichment *
This adjusts the startup fuel enrichment term. 

*Channel 5: Tweak on Warmup Fuel Enrichment *
This adjusts the warmup fuel enrichment term. 

*Channel 6: Lambda Regulation *
This tweaks a lambda regulation system's narrowband oxygen sensor
cycle time in steps of 10 milliseconds. 

*Channel 7: Additive Offset On Speed Limiter *
This is allows one to adjust the speed limiter in steps of 1 kmh. 

*Channel 8: Secondary Fuel Tweak *
This adjusts the main fuel term. 

*Channel 9: Additive offset on ignition timing angle *
Allows one to shift the ignition timing angle up or down in steps of
0.75 degrees. 

*Channel 10: Primary Fuel Tweak* 
This adjusts the main fuel term. 

*Channel 11: Not used*

*Channel 12: Specified Engine Load Scaling Factor (Turbocharged cars only)* 
This factor allows one to scale the specified engine load. The default
value comes set at the maximum value, so specified engine loads can only
be reduced with this adaptation channel. 

*Channel 13: Control Bits* 
These control bits affect engine idle control. 

*Channel 14: Additive Offset To Idle Torque* 
This channel allows one to raise the minimum torque maintained at idle

_There are a couple of more channels that are purposely hidden and don't appear on both unisetting and lemmiwinks. One of them allow boost modifications but you have to open unisetting in Hex editor to manually have access and make changes to these ghost channels._


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*damn!*

I should have gotten APR...I'll head back to the dude and see if he can adjust...
Thanks!

Warranty..Damn it get to work!...


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

coachvtt said:


> I should have gotten APR...I'll head back to the dude and see if he can adjust...
> Thanks!
> 
> Warranty..Damn it get to work!...


Unisetting works with any flash, so if your dude dissapoints (as expected), you could also get to work.


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## jamestown478 (Mar 10, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> Unisetting works with any flash, so if your dude dissapoints (as expected), you could also get to work.


I couldn't get unisettings to work with my apr tune on my s4 when I had apr on it.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

jamestown478 said:


> I couldn't get unisettings to work with my apr tune on my s4 when I had apr on it.


Below, I copied and pasted from post #42, you must have had a locked APR:screwy:.

"_Yes you can, as far as I know*(I have heard of locked APR ecu) *, advance timing and modify any of the open adaptation channels._"


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## jamestown478 (Mar 10, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> Below, I copied and pasted from post #42, you must have had a locked APR:screwy:.
> 
> "_Yes you can, as far as I know*(I have heard of locked APR ecu) *, advance timing and modify any of the open adaptation channels._"


yea musta had a locked one. Glad I got rid of it for epl lol.


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*ok!*

I have the Lemmiwinks downloaded.
Do I need the Vag-Cable or what other cable can I use?
I also had a coversation with the Dude that flashed my ecu with GIAC 93+ suggested I reflash and get the GIAC 100+.
Is this an option or not?


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

*any help*



madmax199 said:


> Only using it for chemical cooling is like using a smart phone to only make phone calls.
> Take advantage of the increased knock threshold and bump boost and timing accordingly.


 Ok! I bought the Vag cable and I get a code that it will not connect O55x wtf? 

Lemmiwinks software etc,.


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

coachvtt said:


> Ok! I bought the Vag cable and I get a code that it will not connect O55x wtf?
> 
> Lemmiwinks software etc,.


 Unisettings software is uploaded from? 

Maybe its the Lemmiwinks software is incorrect on my laptop


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## Audiguy84 (Nov 14, 2006)

Unisettings is on unitronics web site.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

That took you long enough Coachv  

If your cable is USB, you need Unisetting, lemmi is old school and serial.


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## 2T2T5 (Dec 19, 2011)

I am running an APR 93 octane file on 91 pump gas and meth and there is zero KR. I'm running the Devils kit with two nozzles, eventually if I decide to start tuning aggressively I'll swap my control module to something with a good failsafe. But I ran +3.75 added timing with unisettings on my stock ecu and it really livened the car up. Like some have said, its like driving in cool weather all the time! Because my kit is fairly basic I dont add so much timing that the ecu cant pull enough timing (if the pump fails etc) and cant save itself then you get lots of boom boom. But I think meth is a good failsafe in itself helping prevent knock even if you dont tune super aggressive. For me, it was worth it and I learned some good info along the way. 

Dont forget to do logs if you add timing! I live in OK and I haven't logged the car past 78 degree ambient temps. We are getting up past the 80's so I really get to put meth to the test when we hit 90-100


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## coachvtt (Jan 16, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> That took you long enough Coachv
> 
> If your cable is USB, you need Unisetting, lemmi is old school and serial.


 well two kids will do that to ya:banghead:...just have not have had time to piss with it... 

unisettings I need to download on the laptop


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