# Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

Append: It's been 14 years since I began this thread. At the time I had a 1981 Scirocco (California) and a Donor 85 GTI. And a couple of Bentley, Haynes, and Muir Press Repair Manuals. 

I still have the Manuals.

It's been discussed that my published diagram is in error, and I believe that might be right, but I'm not going to pull down this first post- 

What I hope to do is to go back over the new info gathered over the years, the suggestions & replies and see why I thought it was a good idea in the first place.

I'd like to put up a better, new-and-improved picture/schematic next to the first one.

On thing to remember during this revision, some decade and a half down the road: I put this on the Interwebz asking for review, and by inference, feedback.

Last thing for now, as the guy who got this thread started, I take responsibility in not maintaining it, even over such a span of time. Sorry about that.

TBerk - Nov 2016

-------------------------------------
Here is my latest schematic, it corrects some typos I made last time:
btw- Your wiring's colors wil no doubt be way different based on country of assembly, year, model, etc.
(Don't fry anything, this is provided purely as informational, I don't warranty you screwing it up.)
btw- I am using the Distributor from the RD, vacum advance line from old Dist moves to K/S box.
RE: Later in the thread MrDave mentions some Diags from the Bentley- That would be Pin #4 on the K/S controler. tb
(edited 27Aug09 to fix link, better version to follow...)

Anybody want to channel Dr. Frankenstein with me?
'tanks,
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 12:14 PM 7-10-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:17 PM 7-10-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:04 AM 7-19-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 12:07 AM 7-19-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 08:44 PM 7-28-2002]
[Modified by TBerk, 03:16 PM 8-09-2002] 
_Modified by TBerk at 1:22 AM 11-21-2004_ 
_Modified by TBerk at 1:25 AM 11-21-2004_
27Aug09 AM - Working on fixing linkies...
_Modified by TBerk at 12:32 PM 8-27-2009_



_Modified by TBerk at 5:56 PM 8-27-2009_


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

In my application I'm not using pins 1,2,4,11, works great. Also, I checked my Bentley and on the 16v Sciroccos pin 1,4,11 are not connected. BTW, 81's had ECU's?? must be an American thing, none of the Canadian ones did.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (ABA Scirocco)*

- No 11 huh? Looks like a real good grounding point.

I'll post a pic tommorrow with what I come up with.
Thx,
TBerk


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
- No 11 huh? Looks like a real good grounding point.

I'll post a pic tommorrow with what I come up with.
Thx,
TBerk[HR][/HR]​Grounding 11 gives you the milder 85 map versus the more aggressive 86+ map.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (vwpat)*

VWPat is right, I did a fair bit of research before I installed a K-S system on my car, all VW's from 86 on came from the factory with pin 11 not connected.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (ABA Scirocco)*

OK, I looked over everything and I find:
- Harness plug on KS module end has NO 1, 4, nor 11 terminals. These won't be connected at all.
- My CIS had the DIS (Digital Idle Stabalizer inline with the Ignition ECU, now of the three wires from Hall Sensor to ECU, only one wire is used (vs all three). Looks like DIS gets 'obsoleted'.
- OR I place it forward of the KS, but I have never had anyone mention using it. Looks like no DIS, besides the 86 lived without one. (Obsessing partly because this is a California car, going to have to pass smog ref review.)
I'm reworking the color schematic to reflect my current loom, check back this afternoon.
Thx so far,
TBerk


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

Soooo,
Latest report is I find a (50) conveniently located on the starter, powering the solenoid, Considering it's all 12 volts no matter where I get it from and terminal (50)* is what I want to run KS pin #10 
*(It's only on during cranking.)
Also Pin #3 on the K/S box is grounded but doesn't run to 11 like some other (stock) looms do, so I'm using it.
Here’s the quick wap up:
KS module pin #5 gets (15) - power when Ign is ON.
KS module pin #2 was hooked to the O2 computer in the former car, I left it free.
KS module pin #3 is grounded
KS module pins #13 & 14 come from the K/S sensor
KS module pin #7 & 9 from the Hall Sender
KS module pin #6 & 8 goes to the full throttle switch,
(the closed switch is unused right now.)
KS module pin #12 goes to the Ign module #5
The standard 1981 electronic ignition has a digital idle stabilizer in line with the hall sender & ignition module. In this set up the three signal wires on the Ign Mod are reduce to one running to the KS mod, the hall sender runs all three of it’s wires directly to the KS module. Looks like the DIS is out of the picture. (Maybe if I knew what id did better I’d make use of the closed throttle switch to do something with it.) 
I'm still looking for some vinyl tubing to run the loom in, otherwise I'm wrapping it in pipe tape (that’s not the right name but it's 2" wide).
I want to avoid the split loom corrugated stuff as much as possible, and provide for high heat, oil, etc exposure as well.
BTW- As much help as I have gotten from folks’ web pages I think they still lack something. (I sound ungrateful. but quite the opposite is true.)
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 12:03 AM 7-19-2002]


[Modified by TBerk, 12:07 AM 7-19-2002]


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

Bumped for review.
TBerk


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

3 only runs to 11 on the 85 harness.


----------



## theuean (May 11, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

[my post from the 8v forum]
Wow man, thanks *right click, save* I was just about to post about this!!!
To clarify, the electronic ignition module is in the rain tray on driver's side, correct? Where is the throttle valve switch? (full throttle/WOT switch??) And what exactly do you mean by "tie in" with the power? Thanks man... I don't have too much experience with wiring but I'm not afraid either. Scary combination








[/my post from 8v forum]
This is a little weird for me as I have an 84gti and from what I'm seeing, colours aren't exactly the same. Do you (or anyone else) know if it's pretty much the same deal here?
-Sean


----------



## audioteknik (Jun 2, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (Speedemon)*

AWESOME post guys!! You've all done your homework and great job to that. My friend has a K-S only system with euro 16v cis injection on a 2L bottom w/ a 1.8L 16v head in a '81 pickup that runs low 14's consistantly and is "basically" what you'd call stock... well, NOT really! HA! Just wanted to thank all for the info.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








audioteknik


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (Speedemon)*

(Thx, btw- It still needs some revision. I'll prob post a page to show the nuts and bolts part of the install.)
quote:[HR][/HR][my post from the 8v forum]
Wow man, thanks *right click, save* I was just about to post about this!!!
[HR][/HR]​No prob, Bob. That's what we're here for.








quote:[HR][/HR]
To clarify, the electronic ignition module is in the rain tray on driver's side, correct?
[HR][/HR]​Yep, My 1981 Scirocco has the Ign module on the transaxle side of the car, up in the rain tray. I found lots of room on the other side of the car, up in the rain tray. ANd of course the existing O2 sensor box is retained in it's stock location: Under the dash on the passengers side, inside the car. There is a nice stock tray there to accomodate it.
I might just secure the K/S box there to.
quote:[HR][/HR]
Where is the throttle valve switch? (full throttle/WOT switch??) And what exactly do you mean by "tie in" with the power? Thanks man... I don't have too much experience with wiring but I'm not afraid either. Scary combination








[HR][/HR]​"Tie In" means the same as splice, attach to, get power from the same 'circuit track' that other well known items run on- 15 = power when Ign ON, 30 = Power straight from battery (maybe fused but still; always ON), etc.
The WOT switch is used on 84 GTI and up type motors. I got mine from the donor car. Helps to prevent running lean when you have the pedal mashed down. Bonus and easy because the A2 throttle is larger inside diameter so I modified my Intake manifold to fit. In my case it's on top of the throtle itself. There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.
quote:[HR][/HR]
[/my post from 8v forum]
This is a little weird for me as I have an 84gti and from what I'm seeing, colours aren't exactly the same. Do you (or anyone else) know if it's pretty much the same deal here?
-Sean[HR][/HR]​You'll need a Bentley manual, with it's schematics & the schematics from the donor car. I have found Haynes useful but not as good, better to have both.
Also, some cars came with the next year's wire colors, like Scirocco shows up in the book with the next year's Cabby wire colors. Be adaptable.
TBerk



[Modified by TBerk, 1:31 AM 7-20-2002]


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

quote:[HR][/HR](There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.
[HR][/HR]​The Throttle closed switch tells the KS control not to look at manifold vacuum while idling. Gives it a nice stable ignition setting for a consistent idle speed.
Not having this switch hooked up means you will have to set the ignition advance with the vacuum line disconnected (so you have the correct advance at WOT), then connect the vacuum line, then reset idle speed down since the ignition will advance quite a bit with the line connected.
I'd recommend using the switch.
Note for Sean: The Bentley for Rabbit/Scirocco up to 84 only applies to the early 84 Sciroccos. So, if you have an 84 1/2 Scirocco (small spare tire) then you need the later Bentley. I have the same problem.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (J. Daniel)*

quote:[HR][/HR](There's a Throttle closed switch too but I am not using it right now.
The Throttle closed switch tells the KS control not to look at manifold vacuum while idling. Gives it a nice stable ignition setting for a consistent idle speed.
Not having this switch hooked up means you will have to set the ignition advance with the vacuum line disconnected (so you have the correct advance at WOT), then connect the vacuum line, then reset idle speed down since the ignition will advance quite a bit with the line connected.
I'd recommend using the switch.
<snip>
[HR][/HR]​
Well, Once again I remove my foot to insert a bite of Crow. 
The two switches on the A2 throttle body are in place, they are both running through the three conductor plug and both wires run to the K/S module. One is the Blue w/ White, the other is Purple (Violet). The third wire is Yellow w/ Blue and carries 12v from term15.
Thx for the info, I was only thinking it wasn't used because I wasn't using the A2 O2 computer. That's what I get for thinking. Turns out I was confusing the WOT (which in this case has TWO switches - One for Closed & One for Open) with the Idle Speed Actuator, which I am not using (it ties into the A2 Or computer). I'll update the pic again to put the Throttle Closed Switch back in.
TBerk




[Modified by TBerk, 4:11 PM 7-20-2002]


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

WooHoo! She runs! I was able to wiggl some wires around the coil and here the 'buzz' in the fuel Dist come On & Off so that helped track down a loose connector; 12v feed to the coil was both loose and plugged into the recently unused and 'corrodested' one.
Tommorrow I reconnect the downpipe and axles (was waiting inc case the motor had to come out again).








Weeeeee!
TBerk


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (DriversFound.com)*

I _think_ it's *because* of the load reduction relay; Maybe it provides power during cranking when most everything is off. Conversly it signals extra rich for start up or something. I'm not sure.
Check here:
http://home.mindspring.com/~tberk/index.html 
Not the original schematic and where #10 is connected.
The GTI's #10 went to the fuel pump relay. Make that Comes From the FP Relay. Looks like it's a 31 grounding the 15 supplied to the FP Relay to clamp it ON. 
Hmmm, perhaps I will leave it off and see what happens.
TBerk

[Modified by TBerk, 11:39 PM 7-23-2002]


[Modified by TBerk, 11:44 PM 7-23-2002]


----------



## marker (Nov 27, 2001)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

Ok, now I apologize for the lack of clarity, since my memory is not what it used to be. I did this at least 5-6 years ago.
The pin 11 is used to ground somewhere in the fuel circuit, and induces a lower rev limiter (fuel related, i THINK), and has a less agressive ignition map. When you clip the pin, it raises the rev limiter 500RPM or so, and puts more timing in faster. It has to do with somebody at Audi wanting a less agressive map for the 4000s.
That is all that I can remeber for now.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (marker)*

Yeah, we resolved the pin 11 thing, turns out the VW GTI loom from 86 on doesnt even provide a pin on 11.
Qustion of the day is why does David's Volkswagen.Org schematic have pin TEN going to power terminal 50?
TBerk


----------



## MrDave (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

>>Qustion of the day is why does David's Volkswagen.Org schematic have pin TEN going to power terminal 50?

On the wiring schematics for the 85-89 GLI, pin 10 from the KS goes to circuit #50.
Gotta love having a couple different Bentley's lying around.

After 6 months of procrastinating, I'm hoping to toss the KS ignition into my Jetta this weekend. I blame this thread.
-Dave


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (MrDave)*

Well, I was able to time the motor/ distributor (1st use of timing light) and frequency valve (via a dwell meter) (47-52% appox).
Idles is still a might high but I'm replacing edited vacuum hoses with proper caps instead f the plugs I had and will tune it further over the next few days.
The wire TEN to power #50 turns out to Not burn anything up so I'm going to finalize it.
I have some pix upcoming as I remove the tape I used as identification tags and wrap the wires with 2" rubber pipe wrap from Home Depot. 
I also have some extra large shrink tube I hope to use as a substitute for the vinyl tubing used to route the OEM loom in the 1st place. Not trying to make use of the super fat tube as is normally meant for s.t. but to emulate a nice clean stock look.
I also have some braided sleeve stuff for anti abrasive reasons were one thing must rub on another.
Thx for playing along at home people.
TBerk
Moving from the Theoretical to the Physical & Practical


----------



## MrDave (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (DriversFound.com)*

Love the pic of the harness. Been there, done that...
Anywho, got my ignition installed. Spent 2-1/2 testing the wiring and repairing 
the harness. Had to shorten the throttle body wiring somewhat. Everything else went in pretty much unaltered.
Spent 3-1/2 putting the gear on the new dizzy, mounting the knock
box and double checking and popping everything in. Thanks the folks at RadioShack for some fancy double spade connectors.
For the ignition control unit, popped the wire out for the #6, and popped a new plug in for the knock setup. Left the old ignition wiring otherwise untouched in the car, I'll remove that later. I need the car to run on monday, so if all else failed, 
I'd pop the old setup in late on sunday, (or rather, early monday morning) if need be.
Double spade connectors for #50 off the starter and for #15 off the coil, had to pop open the knock box connector to cut the wire for pin 11. 
Mounted the knock box in the passenger side of the raintray.
Started right up. Set the timing, runs good. 
But seemingly no appreciable difference than before.
A little dissapointing, actually.
I'm thinking tomorrow I'll follow the Bentley to check the knock box error codes.
Lessons:
1. didn't take as long as I'd expected
2. was much easier than I'd feared
3. check your harness, my wiring colors were significantly different than TBerk's picture.
4. It is nearly impossible to make holes in the rain tray, and beyond impossible to make a hole big enough for the wiring to pass thru.
5. the pin holding the gear on the distributor is much much easier to get out if you 
drill all the way thru it first
So thanks to the thread for the motivation, but here are the lingering questions:
Rerouting of the vacuum hose from the old dizzy to the new knock box:
I currently have the hose running from the bypass valve on the front of the intake, 
around to a T at the back of the throttle body, where one goes off to the TB, and the other goes off to the knock box. 
Anyone see a problem with this?
And what should I be running for advance at idle?
I'm currently set at 7degrees, which is bang on spec for the 85+ GTI, according to Bentley. David at volkswagen.org says you can go as high as 12. More is a good thing, right?
Thanks to all, 
-MrDave


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (MrDave)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Love the pic of the harness. Been there, done that...
Anywho, got my ignition installed. Spent 2-1/2 testing the wiring and repairing 
the harness. Had to shorten the throttle body wiring somewhat. Everything else went in pretty much unaltered.
Spent 3-1/2 putting the gear on the new dizzy, mounting the knock
box and double checking and popping everything in. Thanks the folks at Radio Shack for some fancy double spade connectors.
For the ignition control unit, popped the wire out for the #6, and popped a new plug in for the knock setup. Left the old ignition wiring otherwise untouched in the car, I'll remove that later. I need the car to run on Monday, so if all else failed, 
I'd pop the old setup in late on sunday, (or rather, early monday morning) if need be.
Double spade connectors for #50 off the starter and for #15 off the coil, had to pop open the knock box connector to cut the wire for pin 11. 
Mounted the knock box in the passenger side of the raintray.
Started right up. Set the timing, runs good. 
But seemingly no appreciable difference than before.
A little disappointing, actually.
I'm thinking tomorrow I'll follow the Bentley to check the knock box error codes.
[HR][/HR]​If you get codes, post them I don't have the later year Bentley, and only half my original one (the second half).
quote:[HR][/HR]
Lessons:
1. didn't take as long as I'd expected
2. was much easier than I'd feared
3. check your harness, my wiring colors were significantly different than TBerk's picture.
4. It is nearly impossible to make holes in the rain tray, and beyond impossible to make a hole big enough for the wiring to pass thru.
[HR][/HR]​re: #3- Every model, year, country of origin has differing colors. 
re: #4- I find I can run all the wires through the existing hole right behind the 'S' pipe. I had to cut the K/S wires free from an extraneous connector anyway, this left me with the only three wire connector that wouldn't have fit free to solder back into the loom after passing it through the hole.
I am going to install a plug/socket of lesser size than the VW stuff in the middle to facilitate future removal/relocations. 
Other than that the others fit through the O-ring and the sheet metal it fits into.
This means I didn't use the big ol' honkin rubber plug thingie that was on the donor loom. I slice it down the middle and will slide it back on near the K/S box to suspend the loom in that area (rain tray).
quote:[HR][/HR]
5. the pin holding the gear on the distributor is much much easier to get out if you 
drill all the way thru it first
So thanks to the thread for the motivation, but here are the lingering questions:
Rerouting of the vacuum hose from the old dizzy to the new knock box:
I currently have the hose running from the bypass valve on the front of the intake, 
around to a T at the back of the throttle body, where one goes off to the TB, and the other goes off to the knock box. 
Anyone see a problem with this?
[HR][/HR]​Well it’s source is most important- vacuum is vacuum. My hybrid Scirocco intake manifold/A2 throttle body has provisions for two vacuum lines so I used one for K/S & the other for the smog control's by-pass valve. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
And what should I be running for advance at idle?
I'm currently set at 7degrees, which is bang on spec for the 85+ GTI, according to Bentley. David at volkswagen.org says you can go as high as 12. More is a good thing, right?
Thanks to all, 
-MrDave[HR][/HR]​More is better. My timing light has a knob on the back, but here I thought it was an adjustment for degree- it's turned out to be a sensitivity adjustment.








Turning it counterclockwise will advance the timing. Mine is set to 6 degrees right now.
Only after the car is hot and you are mashing the pedal and it DOESN'T knock will you notice the improvement.
TBerk
[Modified by TBerk, 8:35 PM 7-28-2002]


[Modified by TBerk, 8:38 PM 7-28-2002]


----------



## MrDave (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

The gospel of the Knock Sensor, according to Bentley:
--------
connect an LED test light between the test connection and the battery (+) terminal.
When the ignition is turned on, the LED should light, indicating that the control unit 
is responding. If it doesn't, check connections and check continuety of the 
wire from the test connector to pin 4 of the knock sensor control unit connector. 
If there is continuety, the KS control unit may be faulty.
Start the engine and briefly raise the engine speed to at least 3000 rpm. If the LED
test light goes out, there is no fault information stored, and the system is operating correctly.
If it does not go out, or if it goes out and comes back on, there is a fault in the system.
Leave the engine idling and the LED test light connected, and connect a jumper wire from the test connector to ground. Hold the connection for at least 3 seconds.
The test light should flash in coded intervals:
If the light does not flash, the control unit is faulty and should be replaced.
Two flashes per interval indicates a fault in either the circuit wiring, the KS, or the KS control unit.
Three flashes per interval indicates a problem with the vacuum connection to
the KS control unit. Check the vacuum hose for breaks and replace if necessary.
If there are no breaks, the control unit is faulty and should be replaced.

---------
Mine checked out fine, no error codes.
And contrary to my previous post, I've noticed a bit more low-end grunt,
and my MFA is showing a significant improvement in mileage, though that 
may be due to my vacuum routing for the sensor.

On a similar vane, going thru the newsgroups archives from google,
folks used to talk about putting a switch on the pin 11 wire to be able 
to alternate between the maps for running high and low octane fuels.
Anyone have success in this?

If anyone is interested, this be my baby:
http://members.tripod.com/~Jetta_GLi/mods.html
(though the page is way out of date)

-Dave


[Modified by MrDave, 3:35 AM 7-30-2002]


----------



## WVWLP7V (Jul 5, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

ttt


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (DriversFound.com)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ok... my update... The pile of wires turned into something useful. I am getting some mild knock with the hot weather when the engine is all warmed up. Seems to only happen when I smash the throttle at lower rpms - but it stops very quickly as rpms increase. Plans are to look at the plugs (using bosch platinums... copper? colder? warmer?) and check/adjust the fuel mixture. Maybe going lean? Ideas very welcome!!
Right now, I'm simply enjoying the newfound power!
The page needs finished, but here is my info on the knock sensor install:
http://knocksensor.driversfound.com
BTW, TBerk, get your info written up before you forget!








[HR][/HR]​
Damn youuuuuuu! I won't, I won't and you cant make me!, so there! 






























Your page is too well built to have me recreate the wheel, kudos.
Update from my part of the world. 
Pulled the hybrid loom to: 
A. Add some heat shrink tubing & anti-abrasion mesh. Will post finished pix, maybe this weekend.
B. Bolt coil back on firewall, I had been test driving around town with the thing sitting on the plastic air intake tube.








C. Do an idiot check for loose bolts and stray wires.

I don't like the Platinum plugs, they seem intended for people who don't maintain their cars. Copper or Silbers for me. http://www.parts4vws.com 
I was at Harbor Freight Tools Thursday, picked up an adjustable Timing light for $20. Gonna use it to dial in a little advance and push the envelope a bit.
Saw some liquid insulator in a can I really liked, but didn't get. Paint on the crimp connectors and forget about it.
Btw- RE: the timing light codes- this isn’t just a 16v type thing is it? I’m thinking of installing an LED in the cockpit connected to it to see if the K/S is working or not under different conditions. Better than the Upshift Light by far. Thx MrDave.
TBerk
(It was 100 degrees here Thursday) (And agan Friday) 
PSs - The GF lets me drive the WRX tomorrow. Good to have one of those. The GF I mean.



[Modified by TBerk, 3:17 PM 8-9-2002]


----------



## matt92vr4 (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

guys, this is amazing. Electronics baffle me. You guys have my respect.
Now I have a question for you...this is for a 1986 golf (non GTI) 1.8l 8v. Ok, I am putting a turbo on it. I have all the parts. I have been running stoich on my a/f gauge. Anyways, I would like to run more on the rich side. If I clip #11, what will happen? Will I run more rich? Or will the advanced timing hurt my engine with the boost?
thanks a bunch


----------



## 92 g-60 (Sep 14, 2004)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

do you have any diograms for a corrado g-60
fo the fuse panel?


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (MrDave)*

ttt because it needs to be in an actually running car.
Fresh pix soon.
TBerk


----------



## tommy-turtle (Apr 16, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

search function 

its a wonderful thing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ABA Mk2 (Nov 24, 2003)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (tommy-turtle)*

Word, this threads the shiz.


----------



## vw_freak7 (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (ABA Mk2)*

Here we are years later and this thread is still inspiring others to finally do this upgrade. I did it this past weekend with the help of TBerk's wiring diagram... it was perfect! Thanks TBerk! 
No more knock when I get into the pedal... Noticable power difference... Took care of a hard start problem when hot... all in all seem like a solid solution to my weak 1981 ignition system and I'm not even maxed out in advance yet. 
Notes: I haven't installed the throttle switches yet so I bypassed the closed throttle switch to set the initial timing instead of taking the vacuum off the knock box. Much easier than I anticipated
Thanks again to TBerk, Driversfound.com and everyone else who did my homework for me.


----------



## dogginfox (Feb 23, 2008)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (vw_freak7)*

Anyone have any pics of their setup? Im about to do this on An 8V/ABA setup and have no clue where I should mount the sensor or the Knock Box ECU.
Thanks


----------



## amlee16v (Aug 31, 2008)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

i'm pretty sure i used this to wire up my CIS 16v swap.
http://www.rabbitgtipage.com/Modific/knock.html


----------



## G60orbust (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
"Tie In" means the same as splice, attach to, get power from the same 'circuit track' that other well known items run on- 15 = power when Ign ON, 30 = Power straight from battery (maybe fused but still; always ON), etc.
- Tberk<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
when I connect/ tie in to the green wire from the ign control module do I cut the original green wire and connect it only from the ICM to the knock box...
or just splice the knock box wire into it ?
_________ original
ICM-------<_________ knock box
or 
ICM--------<_______ knock box


----------



## Miami Blue (Jan 12, 2009)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (TBerk)*

Im having issues trying to get my set up to work. I made my own schematic accoring to the oem schematics. Then i compared it to every other home made schematic and it matches perfectly.
It wont start though.
Used a test light on to the box and with ignition on the light is on.
Tried every possible combo of wiring the distributor and it didnt make a difference.
Swapped out icm's and that didnt make a difference.
Swapped knock boxes, didnt make a difference.
Tried cutting the terminal 50 wire, as someone suggested on here. Didnt make a difference.
Ground is good.
Im out of ideas and about to give up.
Could it be my distributor? Its for a 9a engine, so its a newer distributor. Does it send a different siginal?
Here are my schematics so you can see. The only difference between mine and other peoples is that i have the 2 ground wires going to the same place. It shouldnt make a difference though. Im also running the idle switch which is not shown on the schematic.










_Modified by Miami Blue at 8:17 PM 4-29-2010_


----------



## rcortez13 (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: Lets revisit Knock Box Retrofitting for CIS (Miami Blue)*

Pin 10 on knock box connector is ground for fuel pump not cranking 12v. Theres a link posted earlier showing how to install this set up. Two of the drawings show pin 10 for fuel pump/ground and one shows cranking 12v. If your not gonna use this for a fuel pump relay I would ground that pin. Hopefully your knock boxes are not fried after applying 12v to them.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

It's good to see this thread lives. 


TBerk


----------



## Miami Blue (Jan 12, 2009)

Anybody seen this done with the 9a Dizzy 

Ive decided to give this another try and dont want to attempt again if its not even possible..


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

Driversfound.com is just another vortexer.


----------



## thesk8nmidget (Jun 26, 2011)

bump for a great thread and a question regarding it.


regarding the throttle postion switches there is a 3 pin connector but i dont know which pin is which, do you hook up the switched 12 volt power to the center of the switch? and for the wot and idle switch do you just use a meter and find continuity between the pin and the wire going to the corresponding switch??

thanks in advanced


----------



## tristessa (Sep 25, 2003)

Hope someone's still paying attention to this thread...

I've got a counterflow-head ABA in an '89 Cabriolet, CIS injection. Mk3 manifold, TT downpipe, knock-sensing ignition off an '86 GTI using the GTI distributor and TT adapter ring .. couldn't find an ABA dizzy in the wrecking yards to save my a$$. Everything's in and functional but .. it's not working *right*. Set the timing to spec, it idles nicely and revs up beautifully, but when it drops back to idle the timing retards far beyond where I set it.

I've got a two-wire connector on the throttle switches I used, with a matching plug in the pieced-together harness I used .. thing was butchered and I was half-guessing when I first rebuilt the thing. Then I come in here re-reading the thread and I see stuff about a three-wire set of switches. Could this be where my problem is coming from? The TB came from a Digifant car...


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

you need a 3 wire swtch. CIS based KS ignition uses an idle and full throttle switch.


----------



## tristessa (Sep 25, 2003)

Good to know .. finally. I've been beating my head on the wall over this for a couple of months. Guess I'm hitting the wreckers on Friday, wish me luck.

.. and I was so close to saying "F"-it and getting Megajolt. :screwy:


----------



## tristessa (Sep 25, 2003)

Got the right switches and an Audi 5000 TB, fixed the wiring I think, replaced the now-dead fuel pump screwy and it starts and runs .. like ass, about how it ran before. Got the catalytic converter glowing orange after awhile too, so I shut it off. :banghead: I *think* the cam/crank/distributor timing is correct, but I've heard the marks are off on some ABA's .. ran out of light before I could double-check that.

Just venting/


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

Using the CIS (long) fuel pump relay with built-in rev limiter you do not need T10 connected to anything.


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

I have found many errors in my 1985-93 Bentley from bolt torques to wiring. IF your VW Bentley shows the T10 wire to the starter 50 circuit feel free to upload it and post it. 

The circuit in post #1 assumes the original CIS fuel pump relay is in use, which ought to be noted there.
Someone should just post the correct circuit if using the CIS-E 4-prong fuel pump relay.

CIRCUIT for VW Golf II - Jetta II with 16V ... Relay on right is fuel pump relay driving the 2 pumps
SEE T10 goes to D13 pin then grounds the relay.


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

Wondering if anyone's knock box ruined as a result, or not?


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

The same manual for 1991-93 Cabriolet DIGI2 shows a wire from the ECU to starter 50.


----------



## chickenfriend (Jan 31, 2005)

I ran across this thread while answering a question on the mk1 forum. The poster expressed confusion about pin 10 on the knock box.


The hardcopy Bentley manual GTI, Golf, Jetta Service Manual Gasoline, Diesel, and Turbo Diesel including 16v 1985-1989
shows two types of knock sensor control wiring configurations: pin 10 to circuit #50 (starter solenoid), or pin #10 to ground-side control of fuel pump relay.


Below is a picture from that book *showing the knock box pin 10 directly wired to circuit #50, the starter solenoid *(p. 183), at D13 on the fuse box. Also note that this goes with a fuel pump relay which receives the firing pulse signal from the coil, showing as path "b" shown in the top box. 

Thanks to MacGruber, we know this diagram is WRONG. Mark it so if you have this manual:











Below is a 1985 GTI diagram on page 105. This shows pin 10 to the ground-side control circuit of the fuel pump relay. This is shown with a fuel pump relay which takes a pulse signal from the coil (showing as terminal #1 on the relay):











Here is another diagram showing knock box pin 10 connected to the ground side control of the fuel pump relay (p 215). Track f shown off pin 10 ends up on the ground side control of the fuel pump relay, over on page 218. I don't have page 218 posted, but the fuel pump relay does not have a coil signal input.











And one last one, below, from page 112-113, for a 1987 Golf GT, 1986-1987 GTI (except 16V). it shows pin 10 being part of the ground side control circuit of the fuel pump relay. The diagram does not show this fuel pump relay getting a coil signal:











******

******

So, of the 4 CIS-e Knock Sensor Control Unit wiring diagrams shown above, three of them show pin 10 as part of the fuel pump relay ground side control circuit, and one shows pin 10 connected to the starter solenoid circuit.

MacGruber thinks that the diagram above showing pin 10 connected to the starter solenoid is a mistake. That diagram is for 1988-1989 Jettas and 1986-1989 Jetta GLI's. If someone had access to one of these cars, it would be easy to verify if the car is wired up with pin 10 that way, and if not, that would be one way to prove the diagram is a mistake. How to test it? Remove the knock box connector and test for continuity between the terminal connector for pin 10 and the starter solenoid terminal.

In support MacGruber, it is worth noting that in the troubleshooting section for the knock sensor (same Bentley), a lack of voltage between pins 3 and 10 is indicated as a problem with the ground-side control circuit of the fuel pump relay or faulty fuel pump relay; no mention of the starter solenoid circuit being faulty!

Finally, the wiring diagram I copied above, page 105 for a "1985 GTI" with a knock box, shows a 5 pin (gets coil signal) fuel pump relay--looks like that is a mistake, too, since the other diagrams show 4 pin relays with the knock boxes.

According to the Bentley, the knock sensor control unit has an rpm-limiting function.


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

Post #1 diagram gets an UPDATE


----------



## chickenfriend (Jan 31, 2005)

MacGruber;101353857Your entire series of arguments is absurd.[/QUOTE said:


> You have won me over to your side.
> 
> It never made sense of why the knock box would be wired to the starter.
> 
> I concur that referenced Bentley diagram is wrong.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

< working on a better diagram to supplement that original one... > (I was never really happy with it anyway, it's fuzzy...)


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

This then, would be Post 53. (Yeah, I cheated...)


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

> I concur that one Bentley diagram is in error.


While searching on a competely different VW topic, I came across this quote on vwvortex - Official-Cabrio-Cabriolet-FAQ sticky by _kamzcab86_
Official Cabrio/Cabriolet FAQ

I found the original posted question at tech.bentleypublishers.com http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/thread.jspa?threadID=15437


> In the main wiring diagram - cabriolet from 1991 page 4 of 10, the fuel pump relay draw has 5 connectors (2/30, 3/87, 4/15, 1/31 and 5/1). I have a '92, when I removed the fuel pump relay, it has only 4 connectors.
> I looked at ETKA and the relay part number is 191 906 383 C. My relay has the same number but without the C at the end. Do I have the wrong relay? or the wiring diagram has something wrong?



Answer quoted by _kamzcab86_:

Re: (vwstew) 07-13-2005

 Bentley admits a wiring diagram error for the fuel pump on Digi cars:



> Good Afternoon, Gentlemen,
> The factory wiring diagram for the fuel pump circuit is indeed incorrect and I've run into this before when I was teaching that system back in 1987 when it was first introduced.
> There are NO electronics inside a DIGIFANT fuel pump relay; it is a straight remote switch. That system is significantly different than the previous CIS systems because the signal to run that relay was an on/off signal which the relay electronics used to switch on the pump(s). Digifant fuel pump circuits use a continuous ground from the ECM to run the pump(s)
> 
> ...


Indeed if you look at the 1985-93 VW Cabriolet Scirocco Bentley manual [VW - Volkswagen Repair Manual: Cabriolet, Scirocco: 1985-1993 - Bentley Publishers - Repair Manuals and Automotive Books] wiring diagram for Digifant Cabriolet from 1991 you will see the ECM wire to D13 that heads to a straight CIS fuel pump relay not using the lead from D13.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

Verry Interesting; In going through my Repair Manuals I find many duplicates of the Scirocco Mk1 variety, a pair of Muir Press books, a Haynes, and no A2 Chassis related Bentleys.

I'm away from Base Camp for the next week, but still working on an Update...


----------



## Wild Colonial (Mar 27, 2004)

So after reading through this excellent thread and pouring through the Bentley manuals and other resources, it would be great to get concurrence on my wiring plan of attack. I have a stand alone knock sensor control box from a 1985 GTI, distributor from same, electronic ignition module from same and all the wiring I need which has been carefully isolated:










This is going into my 1980 Scirocco which has simple CIS (no lambda) but did have an electronic ignition. I am going to replace the ignition module with the one I got from the 1985 GTI donor but they seem to be the same. Car has an ABA 2.0L bottom and a worked over 1.8L hydro head with 270 cam.

So below is my wiring diagram, hope this is legible. Does it look good to everyone? The only thing not noted is that the Hi/Low Throttle Position Switch at the throttle body also will have a 12V feed to it from the 15 terminal on the coil (+) with an inline 10A fuse.

The knock sensor control box is wired as follows:

1. open
2. open
3. to ground
4. open
5. to 12v supply at coil (15 terminal)
6. to throttle position switch
7. to distributor
8. to throttle position switch
9. to distributor
10. open
11. to ground
12. to electronic ignition module
13. to knock sensor
14. to knock sensor
15. to distributor


----------



## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

Don't ground pin 11 if you want the more aggressive 86 and later map.


----------



## chickenfriend (Jan 31, 2005)

MacGruber said:


> Every diagram showing the knock box connected to the starter is WRONG!
> 
> What T10 is supposed to do is GROUND the new 4-pin CIS-E fuel pump relay - which requires running a new wire down to the fuel pump relay ground terminal pin-out on the back of the fuse panel.
> 
> IF you have a CIS car, using the original CIS fuel pump relay, you do not need T10 connected at all, the tach signal via the fuse panel turns on the relay. and shuts it off based on its built-in CIS rpm limit.


This.



Another way to put it:


1) If you use a *CIS* 5-pin fuel pump relay, leave pin 10 on the knock sensor vacant. Rev-limits and zero-rev control are handled by the relay. They have five pins because the one extra pin is a signal from the coil #1.

2) If you use the 4-pin *CIS-e* fuel pump relay, pin 10 is wired into the ground side control of that relay, position D13 on the CIS-e fuse box. The CIS-e Knock box/ECU control the over-revs and zero revs. Although the CIS-e relay is only 4 pins, it is not a standard 4-pin relay: the two control prongs are side-by-side with one being more narrow in the pair. Search for 191906383c to find a picture of it.


----------



## Wild Colonial (Mar 27, 2004)

Thanks guys, I won't ground 11 and leave that open for the more aggressive "map"

This car was never run as CIS-E but I will find the fuel pump relay and confirm its a 5 PIN relay so I can also leave pin 10 vacant. This is not looking to difficult. Great thread here that made it all possible for me. 

One last thing - I do need to install a 10A inline fuse on the power supply to the throttle position switches, correct? And that is the only fused hot lead in all this wiring, right?


----------



## Kimdongpoonn (Mar 6, 2017)

So I know I'm bringing this back from the dead, but its driving me crazy. 

Im running a 16v 1.8 on cis lambda in my 83 gti.

I am NOT running the idle switch or wot switch (other than the cis lambda wot switch)

I cannot for the life of me get the car to start UNLESS I use the original ignition setup. (Coil to icm to idle stab to dizzy) 



I have checked all wire positions 20 times (seriously).
I have tried a different knock box
All wires check out for continuity 
I moved my distributor all over the place
I tried jumping my fuel relay (it's getting fuel anyways you can smell it)
I dont have a test light so I havent checked but as previously stated, I've swapped boxes too. 

Anybody have any ideas? Or ran into this issue before? I'd love to use this as it's supposed to be simple and it was free. But I'm really close to getting a cbp black box









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

The knock box is supposed to adjust the timing but it should start at the default position anyways.


----------



## Kimdongpoonn (Mar 6, 2017)

MacGruber said:


> Does it keep running if you unplug the idle stablizer? It should.
> How is the spark with the CIS-E setup used - while cranking away? Is the knock box getting power?
> 
> The idle stabalizer on the 8v stuff is built between the icm and the hall sender so if you unplug it itd shut off I thought.
> ...


----------



## Kimdongpoonn (Mar 6, 2017)

Ok so we literally rechecked every wire today. Everything there checks out. 
We did the test probe on the test port check to make sure the box is good...its fine
We finally pulled a plug out and checked for spark. nothing!!!!
So for some reason its not getting spark. We checked the coil and it states it requires an external ballast.
I do not have one, on either ignition setup.


So now I'm just at a loss for what the heck is going on. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

> the drivers found article


FYI drivers found is a Vortexer here with a webpage on adding a knock box to CIS. See post #58 right here. 
MacGruber:


> IF you have a CIS car, using the original CIS fuel pump relay, you do not need T10 connected at all .. What T10 does is GROUND the new 4-pin CIS-E fuel pump relay via a new added wire


----------



## Kimdongpoonn (Mar 6, 2017)

MacGruber said:


> FYI drivers found is a Vortexer here with a webpage on adding a knock box to CIS. See post #58 right here.
> MacGruber:


So we do NOT have pin 10 hooked up and never had thanks to this post when I first started this. 

I noticed last night that somehow the wires to my coil are backwards. So on my stock ign setup as follows: 

Rd/black & green to plus side on coil

2 Black wires to negative side on coil

So I'm going to go switch those to the correct sides then also hook up the wires to the correct sides for the new kb setup. 

The weird part still is the stock setup produces spark while the kb does not. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## MacGruber (Aug 20, 2010)

Your coil:
Never mind the parts store sites, the 16V uses a DIFFERENT COIL. The resistance 15 to the output is much higher.
I bought one here on VWVortex but my CIS 8v ran worse with it.


----------



## Kimdongpoonn (Mar 6, 2017)

MacGruber said:


> Your coil:
> Never mind the parts store sites, the 16V uses a DIFFERENT COIL. The resistance 15 to the output is much higher.
> I bought one here on VWVortex but my CIS 8v ran worse with it.


So I'll need a 16v coil even though my fuel system/ignition setup is 8v (other than kb)


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------

