# Starter relay for heatsoak problems



## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

This is my second post on the topic but hopefully a bit more descriptive.
Bosch starters use a electromagnetic solenoid for activating the starter mechanism. Like any electromagnet when they get hot the electromagnetic force is substantially reduced. Often to the point the solenoid can't pull hard enough to activate the starter. ALL Bosch starters suffer from this problem, particularly when old and always when installed on an automatic transmission (right under the exhaust manifold, a brilliant piece of engineering) 
Symptom: You turn the key and nothing happens. Nothing. Not even a click. The voltmeter does however show you sucking major current.
You can wait for the starter to cool off (about an hour usually) or you can get more current to the solenoid so it can finally develop enough force to run the starter. Although the wiring is fine it's not heavy enough to pass the current required by the solenoid when hot. 
Solution #1 get a long screwdriver and short from the main starter terminal to the solenoid terminal. Works great. Makes lots of sparks. Destroys screwdrivers. Sometimes cars.
Solution #2 Get a new solenoid/starter. Doesn't always solve the problem.
Solution # 3 Wire in a relay that's triggered by the keyswitch and has current on a heavy wire direct from the battery. 
Bosch makes a relay kit just for this. Seems it's been a problem since VW Beetles roamed the earth. It's called the WR1. In many peoples oprion it's not heavy enough for the job. Solenoids can desire up to 30 amps of current to work. Which makes a small relay a part ready to melt, short out and possibly engage the starter and not let it release. Not good. We need a better relay.
Here's what I did. Went to AutoZone and got what is known around the world as a Ford starter relay. Design dates back to the 30's I think when they used to actually pass the current to the starter thru one of these. So it's kinda heavy duty. The part number is Duralast F496. Cost about $10. 
You'll need to make a short wire from the keyswitch wire to the relay post. (S) Another longer wire from the battery terminal to the big post (either one) and another to go from the other big relay post to the solenoid terminal. All of the connectors are available at Walmart/Autozone etc. I always install such relays close to the starter so the current path is short. But realistically you could mount it on the firewall or fender and be ok. 
Here's the relay 








Here's how the wires attach to it.








I installed it to a tab on the tranny housing since the bracket is the ground of the circuit for this relay.








Here's a closeup of how it's nestled in there.
















Here's a wiring diagram I found in another forum but it's nicely made. Note the diagram shows a 15A fuse but that may be too small. Start with 15 and work your way up to a 30A. My hookup uses no fuse at all but I don't really recommend that for others.








Enjoy!!







Have a beer to celebrate!









_Modified by Moljinar at 6:58 PM 5-4-2006_ 


_Modified by Moljinar at 10:25 AM 5-19-2006_


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

*Excellent!!*
Added to the FAQ!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








<edit> copy pasted the following in, got tired adding it to threads linking back here.
---

.........the heat soak relay fix is not unique to automatics. It is far more commonly needed on automatics. Here's a link to Bentley forums, the three jpgs linked in the 2nd post are the factory bulletin on the topic. This factory version of the fix uses a Bosch or other Euro relay and several other VW specific terminals and a terminal block.
http://tech.bentleypublishers....art=0
The "problem" and cure are actually as old as Bosch starters. I have stories from the 6V days. 
Anyway, Moljinar's write up uses a Ford relay. The Ford unit is a far more robust and dependable relay, it's perfectly suited to this application. The Ford part is definitely the best to use. Can't expect VW to recommend a brand "F" part, can we?..........
____________________________

</edit>





_Modified by tolusina at 12:21 AM 4-8-2007_


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## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (tolusina)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tolusina* »_*Excellent!!*
Added to the FAQ!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Thanks! I titled it so it'd popup in a search on the topic.


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## itschuck2c (Sep 12, 2005)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

The autozone part works great, but if you can find the actual ford relay it has recessed terminals. The terminals actually sit down in a hole and there is a slot where the wires run to the terminals. Keeps the odd wrench from shorting against the terminals when working on your car. Any ford truck or van up to 1986 has them so look for it next salvage yard trip.
The fiat x/19 had the same problem, and if you have the x/19 your cabby starter will fit it. (oops now everyone knows Im old)


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## NJ_Cipher (May 2, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

Where are you guys terminating your alternator cable???


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

This post is good save for the 90'ish Automatic cabs. 
There is another relay in the system, that is located Behind the Knee-bar.
That is VW's attempt at a heat soak relay. That is also a cause of intermittant No-start..Cold or HOT though...
See:
http://www.toplessrabbit.com/f...=1667
Between the two, we got it covered for all years.


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## theoldkid (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

Thank you for your (as usual) great write-up. That will be included as one of my projects next Spring.
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone !!


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## dubaholic92 (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (theoldkid)*

so i have a pretty much brand new starter ( bougth and installed last summer) only driven in the summers and late springs/ fall. so its new
But i just installed a 270 cam, and after starting once, letting it run, and esp int he hot weather ( even when tis been sitting a longg time), it wont start ont he first key turn, sometimes not even ont eh second. it just makes a whinning noise.
is this heat soak??? or is my starter not strong enough to turn the new cam when its hot?


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (dubaholic92)*

Is it automatic? from your tag line it says 3 speed of fury...
If it is a 90ish Auto, then you have the other problem possibly.. That and possibly your starter is mis-aligned.. *When you installed it did you use all 3 bolts?*


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## dubaholic92 (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*


_Quote, originally posted by *briano1234* »_Is it automatic? from your tag line it says 3 speed of fury...
If it is a 90ish Auto, then you have the other problem possibly.. That and possibly your starter is mis-aligned.. When you installed it did you use all 3 bolts?
http://mk1dubs.com/modules.php...=1920

the 3 speeds of fury is sarcasm yes its auto, a 92. unfortunately i didnt install the new starter so im not sure on the bolts, but it worked beautifully until the cam went in. and what is the other problem?


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (dubaholic92)*

The other problem in that VW designed their own version of the heat soak relay. 
But they tied half of it in to the Digifant control system.
The link was the location of the relay and the resolution of a no start hot or cold issue.

If the starter is missing one of the bolts probably the top one then it could be out of position so that the bendix isn't engaging the fly wheel.
I don't think your cam has anything to do with the issue, it is just co-inky dink.


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## dubaholic92 (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*

hm so your saying mine shouldnt have a hot start issue... its either a missing bolt, or something with that relay that u sent the link to.


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*

That the starter motor spins says it's not an electrical issue.
The starter is either loose and falling off, or it's shot. You're going to have to get under the car and put socket wrenches on the bolts to find out if they are loose.


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## dennis2society (Apr 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (tolusina)*

subscribed, I think this is happening to my caddy lately.....


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## sweetpea2127 (Apr 14, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dennis2society)*

well it turns out that it wasn't my starter... it was the nutral switch in the shift console assembly that wasn't all the way clicked in, I have to jiggle the stick thing to get my car to start sometimes..... oh well the hunt is on for a shift console asembly


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## lotus4 (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

me. 93 cabriolet auto. having heatsoak prob. installed a new starter starts and works great untill hot. went out and bought wires and the ford starter relay pictured in this post. mounted to inner fender by airbox. ran separate ground from tab on ford solenoid to the battery negative and its bare metal under the bracket on inner fender area, ran all wires exactly the same. car doesn't start the new solenoid/relay clicks. have full voltage at everything. am i missing something? if i take everything off and hook up starter in the factory manner the car starts right up? really wanted to do this since after it is hot car wont restart and i hate waiting for hrs or leaving the car running. help!!


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (lotus4)*









There is the wire you spice in to. Take the starter side to a big lug on the relay. Take the switch side to one of the other smaller lugs.
Take the other big lug to the Positive battery and remove the ground. (It grounds itself via the frame mounting point... if you placed a ground on the other little lug I am thinking it wont work if I remember the first time I connected mine up.).


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## lotus4 (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*

fixed it! wasn't the ground. the other wire from big post on the new solenoid wasn't contacting properly to the original post on solenoid of starter. all better now. this was an excellent writeup. only thing i have left to do is put some insulation on the wire to the starter so it doesn't burn up from the heat under there! thanks all the vortex rules


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## weybs (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

I have a 1997 Jetta GT 5 speed. that seems to have this heat soak issue. Trying the fix detailed above, but not sure that I am connecting the relay wires correctly to the starter. When I connect to the Blue wire, the starter engages soon as I turn the key from off position. It doesn't wait till I get to the Start position. I 
The starter only turns for a second, and the engine doesn't start. Don't want to do any damage before getting clarification.
I'm using the relay method described in the Eric Diaz drawing, but am confused because I do not have the wire with the Yellow sheeth.
Any help is appreciated, since I've been having to search for sloped parking spaces for too long. Only vw owners can appreciate seeing me push start this thing like fred flintstone.
http://s494.photobucket.com/al...r.jpg









_Modified by weybs at 6:07 PM 11-16-2008_


_Modified by weybs at 6:08 PM 11-16-2008_


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## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (weybs)*

I'd check your grounds first. The fact it turns for a second means it should keep turning. A heat soaked starter usually won't turn at all. Go over all your connections to make sure they're good.
...0ran..


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## 93karmencabby (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

OK I understand all you have posted , however 1 Question , I have noticed that on my stock solenoid,( Automatic tranny behind exaust manifold) that the big terminal closest to manifold seems slightly loose and if I turn it counter clockwise till it feels tight (not much movement) it will usally start, Now will just adding the relay solve my problem or should I replace the solenoid as well? Also would this same thing work on my 1974 Harley sportster with a similar type of solenoid setup?


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (93karmencabby)*

If the terminal is loose? is that the Spad terminal or the nutted one?
If it is the nutted one tighten it all the way up.
The how to change your starter (automatic) is in my FAQ on page 3.


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## 93karmencabby (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*

Hmmm well, the nut and wire seem tight , it seems to be the whole terminal thats moving slightly, also I have noticed that the heat shiel is gone, I got another one from a bone yard but can't seem to figure what it attaches to, and you FAQ page is where? Pictures are worth a 100 words , if I can see pics and diagrams I cana figure the rest out.


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (93karmencabby)*

*How to remove your automatic starter.*


The faq's are the very first post thread in the forum.
Official Cabrio/Cabriolet FAQ
As in Frequently Asked Questions. 
The heat shield on a automatic, is held in place by the lower starter mounting bolt and the to "Y" shaped pieces that attach to the rear of the starter by 2 10mmnuts, and the sheet tin is attached to that by 3 10mm bolts.
If the stud is twisting then you either need to tighten it fully, or replace the starter. You may ne able to take it to a Auto Electrical place and they can rebuild it for you cheaper than you can buy new.


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## 93karmencabby (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*

Thanks man , the pictures explain alot, apparrently I am missing the y shaped brackets for the heatshield, but from the pics I can fab something up., also I did read your 93 under the Knee bar article and have locate dthat as well, thanks again.







paul


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## 93karmencabby (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*

Hey in your article you say f496 but in your average joe wirring diagram, you show an f492 , my local auto zone only had a f492 in stock is there a differance or will either work?


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (93karmencabby)*

that is the difference in where the large terminals are located.....
One has them on opposing sides.
The other is about 1/2 inch from each other... (which makes it easy to pick if you need to test it.)


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## 93karmencabby (May 19, 2009)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*

Thats what I figured Thanks


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## Nart (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (Moljinar)*

Great work !!!! thx so much


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## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (93karmencabby)*

Had one of each installed at different times. Didn't realize my pics were different.
A starter relay is a starter relay. Only the terminals move around.


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## dubpunk13x (Jan 5, 2006)

I used this awhile back and it worked great. Starts every time now. Thanks for the help.


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## YJSAABMAN (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: (dubpunk13x)*

Swapping my cabby form auto to stick, but swapped this setup from my car into a friend's Scirocco. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AutoEtienneAigner (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (93karmencabby)*

Related to this, I also have a dead car now that has this same problem. It doesnt seem to be the whole solenoid but just the "guts" that seem to be loose inside. Tried tightening up both terminals (under and on top-of the power cables) but still loose. The car only clicks at the starter relay now when I try to start the car. Any thoughts would be great! Thanks in advance!


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (AutoEtienneAigner)*

If you haven't installed the heat soak relay then do so now.
Key switch on.
Car in park.
Parking brake on.
Look for the red wire in the picture.








Jumper 12V+dc with a heavy gauge wire directly to the battery. If the starter dosen't engage, then you have a wonky starter and it needs to be replaced.
*How to replace your automatic starter *


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## AutoEtienneAigner (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (briano1234)*

Ok, I plan on giving this a try but I thought it would also be worth noting that a couple days ago before it completely died on me it was having intermittent charging issues. Cruising down the freeway my volts went from 12+v to 10 then back up to 12. Later that day it went back to 10 then down to nothing. Tried to jump start the car afterwards only to get a single click from the starter relay under the dash, nothing else. No crank, only a click. What does this mean?


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (AutoEtienneAigner)*

When was the battery tested and or replaced, as you can run it by a checkers,aotuzone,advanced and get it tested for free.
I would suggest that you replace the grounds from the battery to the frame and from the frame to the battery. Why? Because Great Electrics, and A great cup of Coffee always starts with good grounds.
Lighting doesn't cause any damage where there isn't a ground.


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## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

*Re: Starter relay for heatsoak problems (AutoEtienneAigner)*

Sounds like a bad positive terminal. Possible bad alternator (intermittently charging) but my bet is on bad, loose wires.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

Bringing this one back up...

I installed this setup today with an inline fuse holder between the battery and the relay. I am popping 30A mini blade fuses each time I put one in. If I bridge the connection, the car starts AMAZINGLY well and my volt gauge reads higher than ever before (~13.5V on gauge, ~13.8XV at battery). Does anyone have any thoughts? Blowing out 30A fuses seems kind of ominous...


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

Well first replace your grounds.
You have to resolve the intermittent charging and the System going from pos to neg INDICATES a connectivity issue. 

If you have the heat soak issue then the starter may not engage when you jumper it.
If you have weak grounds you can get hte same condition or a battery that is totally deceased.

Check your grounds.


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## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

We usually don't fuse that wire because the whole problem is that it's taking more than 30-40A to make the solenoid work. That's why we need the relay in the first place. The 40A relay that Bosch suggests using often craps out so we recommend the Ford starter relay which will handle about 200A. 

Simply remove the fuse from the circuit and you'll be fine.


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## eleazar1 (Aug 29, 2001)

Thank you, Vortex for the diy! Been trying to get this starter out for several hours now....


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## erty67 (Feb 23, 2010)

sorry for taking an old thread to the top, but this was the most useful thread I found on the matter. In this picture, does the green connect to the same nut as thick red line on the starter? I would think so, but wanted to make sure before attempting.


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

The Green wire is going from the Battery to one of the big posts on the solenoid (Positive).
The other big post is going to the Solenoid on the starter, that is the wire that you are splicing in to. 

One half of that wire goes to the "pick" of the solenoid.... and the other half of that wire goes to the Solenoid.

Here is the wire that comes from the firewall (ignition switch) to the solenoid. 










That is the wire that you are cutting, and taking the firewall side of it to the "pick" side of the new starter solenoid. The other side of that wire which is going to the Starter Solenoid is going to one of the 2 big Studs on the new starter solenoid... The other big stud goes to the battery positive.


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## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

I work on a lot of cabbys in the area and the other day one showed up with my Hot Start fixed installed! Exactly the same relay and all. Made me proud.


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## likaroc13 (Jul 23, 2008)

can anybody give me an idea how much it would cost to do this? and how long did it take?

thanks!


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

The relay is less than 10 bucks at any parts store, you will need about 6 foot of 14-12 ga wire and a few terminal ends, and heat shrink. Probably less than 20, and the way that the starter works after: Priceless.


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## likaroc13 (Jul 23, 2008)

i feel like such a dummy...i went out to inspect for the wire location that i'd be tapping into...turns out there's already a relay of some sort...maybe this one is fried...never payed attention to it in the 3+ years i've had the car...and everything looks to be hooked up like suggested...so, i guess i'll get a new one & see if that helps...while looking, i also noticed that there isn't a heat shield...so, i'll get one of those ordered too....hopefully that'll fix it


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## czastrow (Feb 20, 2011)

our cabby started doing the no start thing this morning after I moved it 2 spots over in our parking lot. Not even a tick or anything when we tried to start it. It did start when we tried to jump it with the passat though...... so is it the same problem as above? 92 auto so I know it fits the mold but I haven't seen anyone say anything about it starting after jumping it. If its the same problem, I know my project tomorrow!!

I love this forum.


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

More Power to the starter. The trick with out the relay is to turn the key on, car in park.

Then add power to this wire directly from the battery, and your starter will spin.










Which is the wire that you splice into for the heat soak relay.... Really it is.


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## CajunSpike (Mar 11, 2009)

Where can you get one of those starter heat shields from? for the automatic starter? Other than the junkyard?


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## hessiandave (Jul 5, 2009)

These ford stater solenoids wired with a momentary switch and some inline fuses to the battery is a great upgrade to heat the glowplugs on 1.6 idi diesel engines!
That's what my setup will consist of.


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## czastrow (Feb 20, 2011)

|Anyone in Salt Lake City own a cabby and want to help me do this??


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## czastrow (Feb 20, 2011)

so here's a question...

Even when its cold now, it doesn't even try to start. Same as when its warm. I can however start it by rolling it a bit then putting it in park then trying to start it and this works occasionally. I'm guessing the starter is bad? Maybe some bad wiring? any ideas for me to check. I wont register it until it starts everytime, otherwise there is no point in driving it as a daily. PS I'm on a really tight budget, I still have to register it, pay tax on it, and fix it with just finding out my wife is pregnant!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In college, no job and a sweet cabby, I can tell this car is going to require a lot of patience on my part.:laugh:


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## kamzcab86 (Feb 14, 2002)

czastrow said:


> so here's a question...
> 
> Even when its cold now, it doesn't even try to start. Same as when its warm. I can however start it by rolling it a bit then putting it in park then trying to start it and this works occasionally. I'm guessing the starter is bad? Maybe some bad wiring? any ideas for me to check. I wont register it until it starts everytime, otherwise there is no point in driving it as a daily. PS I'm on a really tight budget, I still have to register it, pay tax on it, and fix it with just finding out my wife is pregnant!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In college, no job and a sweet cabby, I can tell this car is going to require a lot of patience on my part.:laugh:


Two thoughts:
1) Starter-interlock: http://www.toplessrabbit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1667
2) Park-Neutral safety switch (it's near the shifter, as I recall)


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## czastrow (Feb 20, 2011)

is the park neutral safety switch the white one inside where the shifter goes down that you have to wiggle your finger in there to move it around?


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## czastrow (Feb 20, 2011)

kamzcab86 said:


> Two thoughts:
> 1) Starter-interlock: http://www.toplessrabbit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1667
> 2) Park-Neutral safety switch (it's near the shifter, as I recall)


looks like the park neutral switch was stuck. seems to start fine now... we will see when its hot if it fires up. Thanks Kammy! ( I hope thats how you spell it)


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## kamzcab86 (Feb 14, 2002)

czastrow said:


> Thanks Kammy! ( I hope thats how you spell it)


:thumbup::beer:


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## likaroc13 (Jul 23, 2008)

erty67 said:


> sorry for taking an old thread to the top, but this was the most useful thread I found on the matter. In this picture, does the green connect to the same nut as thick red line on the starter? I would think so, but wanted to make sure before attempting.


just noticed, but i think this question relates to how mine is/was hooked up by the PO....i have a relay/solenoid with the "green" wire running from the big lug on the relay solenoid to the starter solenoid...however i also have the normal big, positive battery cable (thick red wire in diagram) running from the battery to the starter solenoid...is this necessary? i think the question was whether that main positive battery cable should mount to the same starter solenoid stud along with the wire coming from the big lug on the relay solenoid?....hope that makes sense


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

There are 2 wires that run to the starter. A BIG HONKING ONE, that is attacked to a 13mm nut on the starter, and one that is spadded to the solenoid. (thin red one).

It is that Thin red one that you Cut (above the transmission) and the side that goes to the fire wall you run to the itty-bitty pick side of the new relay.

The side that goes to the Starter you attach to one of the BIG lugs on the relay...

You Leave that Big Honking Wire that runs to the Starter from the Battery alone.

Oran is gonna redraw the Diagram... But here is my edit of his. With appologies to Oran....


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## likaroc13 (Jul 23, 2008)

thank you sir...yes, that is how mine is attached/wired....upon trying to replace the relay solenoid, i found out that the stud on the starter solenoid was loose...this is the stud with the big honkin battery cable that runs to the battery positive...well upon trying to wiggle it, that dang starter solenoid stud fell right out of the solenoid (seemed to have rusted)...so now i'm trying to remove the starter to fix the solenoid...this might have been part of my whole problem all along!...but i have the F496 relay to install just to be sure everything works correctly


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

A little late, but a how to change a automatic starter.

http://www.the152.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3110


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## Kevin Rowley (Sep 6, 1999)

While we're on the subject of starters, does anyone know of a good way to check a starter that is not currently installed in the vehicle? I have a spare used starter that came with a bunch of other parts I bought. I just don't know if it is any good...


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

Take it to AutoZone, and have them test it... Or Advanced, pepboys the like,,,,
If it's good, then tell them you don't have to buy a new one right now.....
If it's bad, well pitch it, and don't buy a new one. You went there to get it tested...


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## oneunder (Mar 31, 2009)

A battery, a long screw driver, and some jumper cables is my preferred method.

But the Autozone thing is way more concise.


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## Kevin Rowley (Sep 6, 1999)

oneunder said:


> A battery, a long screw driver, and some jumper cables is my preferred method.


As they often say around these parts: *Hey Ya'll, watch THIS!!!* 

AutoZone is probably the better (safer) method.


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## frenzycat (Sep 1, 2011)

this is great... i got a 91 jetta that has heatsoak, left me sit numerous times. Now its time for a fix:beer:


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Copy/pasted from another thread, step by step instructions, test as you proceed.
_________________



You need a DVOM to proceed, a test light would be adequate and simpler for several steps.
Good, solid, crimped connections are essential and minimum, good, solid crimped AND soldered connections are best.

There are three connections to the starter;
power, called 30;
ground, called 31;
energize, called 50.

30 is the big cable connecting to battery positive.

31 is less obvious as there is no wire connection for it on the starter itself, the starter grounds through the transmission case, trans case grounds to battery negative through the battery/body/drivetrain battery cable.

While both battery cable may look ok, looking at them is no test. Either measure actual voltage drops across them or replace those 20+ year old cables.

50 activates the starter solenoid when the ignition switch is turned to the start position. On automatics, the circuit includes the neutral safety switch at the base of the shift lever and an interlock relay or two behind the kneebar that I've never analyzed but Brian has.
---
The 'heat soak' or 'booster' relay you can install is added into the 50 circuit.
A Ford relay has three terminals (older styles have four). Battery isolator relays look similar, have at least four terminals and are WRONG for this application.
On a three terminal relay, ground is internal through the housing, the small terminal activates it. Activation causes the two large terminals to connect, essentially a remotely controlled, heavy duty switch. 
On a proper four terminal relay, one of the two small terminals activates it. To find which small terminal to use, connect one terminal of an ohm-meter to the base, the other to each of the small terminals in turn. One will show internal coil resistance, use that one, ignore the other one. If there is resistance across the two small terminals, you've got the wrong type relay.
---
Got the correct relay? Good, let's get it installed, we'll test each step as we proceed.

Let's test the relay 1st, they are most always fine, testing will make sure, plus you'll be learning as we go.
1) Firmly hold the base of the relay on a known good ground such as battery negative, the engine block, transmission housing or bare metal part of the body. Briefly connect power to the small terminal on the relay, the relay should respond with a solid clunk, clack or thunk sound, this is the relay coil operating. Expect a few sparks as you make the connection as normal, if anything starts getting hot like RIGHT NOW, you are doing it wrong.
2) Next, set the DVOM to a resistance range, connect it's leads across the relay's two large terminals, repeat the test above. As the relay clunks, you should see continuity on the ohm meter across the two large terminals. There should be no continuity across the two large when the relay is not activated.
2a) Are you beginning to understand relay function yet?

3) Ok, mount the relay base, preferably to the transaxle case. Repeat the 1st clunk test, no need to repeat the 2nd. If it still clunks, you know the relay is mounted to a good ground.

4) Now you've got to find the 50 wire, figure out which end of it comes out of the car from the ignition switch start circuit, where it connects to the starter solenoid, which you already know, you just may not yet know that you know.

5) The 50 wire from the ignition switch now has to have the circuit broken from 50 on the starter solenoid and connected up to the small terminal on the relay. 

6) Turn the key to the start position, the relay should clunk and nothing more should happen (yet).

7) Dis-connect the battery.

8) Run a wire (see crimp/solder notes above) of at least 12 gauge, (10 gauge is good too but may be mechanic's overkill, 14 gauge is completely inadequate) from the battery positive terminal to either of the relay's large posts.

9) Re-connect the battery.

10) Switch the DVOM to a DC Voltage scale that will show 12 volts, often the 20 volt scale, autorange is fine too.

11) Connect the DVOM black lead to a known good ground, test it by connecting the red lead to battery positive to be sure.

12) Connect DVOM red to the as yet un-connected large post on the relay.

13) Turn the ignition switch to start, DVOM should then show battery voltage. 
Relay and all wiring so far are thoroughly tested at this point.

14) Remove the DVOM.

15) Connect the so far un-connected large relay post to 50 on the starter solenoid.

16) Start the car.

17) Smile.

18) Thank Brian, Oran (Moljinar), myself and yourself.
______ 





Here's a poor heat soak relay installation I photographed in a junkyard.








The location is ok enough I guess.
Wires on the large posts are way too small gauge, wire is poorly wrapped around the small post.


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## shortwave360 (Jul 6, 2008)

briano1234 said:


> This post is good save for the 90'ish Automatic cabs.
> There is another relay in the system, that is located Behind the Knee-bar.
> That is VW's attempt at a heat soak relay. That is also a cause of intermittant No-start..Cold or HOT though...
> See:
> ...


 Well... I think I'm onto this part of the "fix" for heat soak/no start problem. I have a '92 that has most of the atypical problems all cabbys from the 90's have. I had been experiencing hot start issues, but with a twist. Sometimes when I tried to jump it she would start right up (seems like I have a relay issue). I have been dealing with the phantom issue for the last six months until this weekend when it was obvious I needed to make the fix happen that is described on this page. The whole process took me about 20 minutes once I found everything and wrapped my head around it. 

After Installed the ford solenoid the car stated right up no problem! I drove it a bit and she would start up after a period of time that would usually cause a hot start issue. I thought my problems were solved. Now just a two days later I'm at a no start dead end. I can hear the click of the solenoid but that is it when I try to crank the motor over. Charging system and all other related bits are top notch and not suspect. I must add that I did not put a fuse in line to the solenoid. 

I plan on doing that today along with the relay splice trick in the quote above from Briano1234, who happens to be one of my favorite 'tex members now that "I" own a Cabby (it's officially my lovely GFs). I am on my way to post pics of the canvas top, padding and headliner we successfully installed over the winter thanks to Briano1234's detailed DIY that made it all possible. I'll update this post to let you all know how long and if it worked! 

Here is my solenoid fix mounted to the tranny:


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

Well in difference to Molinars Heat soak fix (actually I agree with it 99 percent save for the mounting of the solenoid to the tranny.) 

I being of a Pseudo Klutzy Moments, have been known to drop a wrench or 2 in that General area occasionally. That is why I chose to mount my Solenoids on the inner fender behind the Air box's on my 90's. I know it is different on the CIS cars as there is less room, I just don't like seeing sparks fly...


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## Moljinar (Sep 20, 2001)

Brian, I totally agree with your sentiments about the mounting point. I only picked that spot since it was close to the pigtail coming off both the starter and the firewall and a solid ground was readily available. I'm like you in that I've dropped a wrench or two so next time I'd move the relay or at least insulate the heck out it.


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## shortwave360 (Jul 6, 2008)

briano1234 said:


> Well in difference to Molinars Heat soak fix (actually I agree with it 99 percent save for the mounting of the solenoid to the tranny.)
> 
> I being of a Pseudo Klutzy Moments, have been known to drop a wrench or 2 in that General area occasionally. That is why I chose to mount my Solenoids on the inner fender behind the Air box's on my 90's. I know it is different on the CIS cars as there is less room, I just don't like seeing sparks fly...


 I plan on moving the unit to a better location just as soon as I have a bit of time and after I feel I've gotten all my "starting" issues sorted. 

I did your no start fix as seen here: http://www.toplessrabbit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1667 

However the first time I tried to start the car after completion it wouldn't turn over. I could hear the single click of a relay under the dash labeled #18. The relay looks like it isn't an original and somebody had already once replaced it. Another odd thing I noticed is when I went to cut the ignition lead, it had already been cut and again spliced back together. The relay lead from #92 was intact still and I couldn't find any reason for the cut in the ignition lead. I swapped relays from my mk2 jetta to no avail hoping it was something simple. I then put the original #18 relay back in again and tried to turn it over one more time. She started up. I've driven her around running errands today and started it up at least 10 times today. I am starting to wonder what part(s) of the system were/are faulty and how many fixes are going to be needed to finally sort out the issues. I'm not worried about finally tracking down the issue, but... :banghead: 



Moljinar said:


> Brian, I totally agree with your sentiments about the mounting point. I only picked that spot since it was close to the pigtail coming off both the starter and the firewall and a solid ground was readily available. I'm like you in that I've dropped a wrench or two so next time I'd move the relay or at least insulate the heck out it.


 I'm glad you showed it this way because I was in a situation where I was stranded 100 miles from home and it made the job really quick and easy with just $20 and a trip to the auto parts store. Thanks for a great post! Another cabby was able to get on it's way with the help of the vortex community. :heart:


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## 70 miles (May 28, 2008)

kamzcab86 said:


> Two thoughts:
> 1) Starter-interlock: http://www.toplessrabbit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1667
> 2) Park-Neutral safety switch (it's near the shifter, as I recall)


 Just found this, I did the solenoid relay for the heat soak and didn't get a crank. But after desperation I tried the bypassing of the starter interlock relay (92) and it worked perfectly!!!  
Now I need a starter heat shield for extra protection and I'm good to go. 
Thanks for the links:thumbup:


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

70 miles said:


> Just found this, I did the solenoid relay for the heat soak and didn't get a crank. But after desperation I tried the bypassing of the starter interlock relay (92) and it worked perfectly!!!
> Now I need a starter heat shield for extra protection and I'm good to go.
> Thanks for the links:thumbup:


 Your Welcome.


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## cabbynoob (Jun 12, 2015)

Will this work with my 1988? Same problem


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

works for most VW

here is a baywindow diagram









http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/FAQContent.html#0901


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

rabbitnothopper said:


> works for most VW
> 
> here is a baywindow diagram
> 
> ...


While that is ok for the Transporter, pulling the Wire from the 12v battery side of the starter means crawling under the CAR.
Moljinar's is a whole lot easier, no jacking required, as for the Fuse from the Battery to the Relay, you don't need it. Only one wire cut and a couple of splices.

It works for Manuals just as well as it is similar to the Head Light relay, jump starts the 12V.

In the Wrecking yard the other week when I was looking for a solid flex plate, the Tranny I got the plate off of had Moljinar's heat soak right down to the same location. 

Now in regards to your link, most of the Articles for the 914, and Transporter Mimic my mantra, Grounds, Grounds, Grounds.


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## kamzcab86 (Feb 14, 2002)

briano1234 said:


> While that is ok for the Transporter, pulling the Wire from the 12v battery side of the starter means crawling under the CAR.


Not to change the Cabriolet subject, but a Transporter's starter is on the front of the trans, which is in front of the engine, both of which are mounted to the rear half of the vehicle. There is no access to the stock starter wiring on a Transporter from above unless you are Rubberman.

Bay Window:










2WD Vanagon:










No matter what, for the stock Bosch starter, regardless of transmission, you're crawling under the Bus/van... and if you have a Vanagon Syncro, your starter job just became a whole lot worse than even a Cabriolet's automatic.


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## Blade3562 (Aug 17, 2012)

Silly question, but my car was retrofitted with this exact upgrade by the previous owner. I personally have never seen this before and want to remove it. I have a plethora of starters and actually have a couple starter heat shields (MK1/MK2). Looks like it's as simple as moving the one from the key back to the starter, removing the relay and I'm done. It really clutters up the bay and looks awful! I'd rather swap starters after a couple months than have to mess with trimming and re-doing the wiring on this thing lol.

(ignore the coolant on the tank, seal was old lol)


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

Blade3562 said:


> Silly question, but my car was retrofitted with this exact upgrade by the previous owner. I personally have never seen this before and want to remove it. I have a plethora of starters and actually have a couple starter heat shields (MK1/MK2). Looks like it's as simple as moving the one from the key back to the starter, removing the relay and I'm done. It really clutters up the bay and looks awful! I'd rather swap starters after a couple months than have to mess with trimming and re-doing the wiring on this thing lol.
> 
> (ignore the coolant on the tank, seal was old lol)


As the owner of 2 automatics, It don't matter how many heat shields you have, or even if your starter is good, brand new or what..."You'll be Sorry.."

This mod was a TSB by VW for Automatics, and well if they suggested it, I am doing it.
The Nice Thing is if and When your ignition switch goes bad, You can Jump the Starter Really really easy.

I did mount mine to the Drivers side inner Fender, and not the tranny.

One of my cars didn't have this, and I knew all about this. I got stranded for Heat Soak 200 Miles from Home with nothing but a hunk of wire which I used to Jump start the Starter.... As soon as I got to my destination, I boorrowed a few tools and Irish engineered this fix till I got back home.


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## Kevin Rowley (Sep 6, 1999)

Let me second briano's recommendation. I spent 2 painful years and replaced two (probably good) starter motors fighting this problem. I still have a spare starter motor on my parts shelf from this experience. I have not had the heat soak problem even once since I added the Bosch relay kit (23 years and counting...).

My relay is currently mounted to the rain tray, but I have been considering relocating it to a less heat intensive spot and proactively replacing the wiring.


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## cy7878 (Dec 8, 2013)

Hi Brian,

Sorry to be dense. I just wanted to clarify that by cutting the red/black solenoid wire and connect the relay in between the cuts and hook up a new 10 gauge wire from positive battery terminal to the relay big post, then I would NOT have to get under the car to remove the starter in a 93 auto. Right?

Sounds almost too simple....


Thank you.


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

cy7878 said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> Sorry to be dense. I just wanted to clarify that by cutting the red/black solenoid wire and connect the relay in between the cuts and hook up a new 10 gauge wire from positive battery terminal to the relay big post, then I would NOT have to get under the car to remove the starter in a 93 auto. Right?
> 
> ...


Yes you don't have to get under the car that is if you don't want to.
Find this wire. It runs on the top or the rear top side of the Tranny.


That is the Solenoid wire to the starter, cut it and run from the Starter side to the big lug on the relay.
Run the (firewall) side to the Pick of the relay.
Run a wire from the Battery Positive to the other big lug of the relay. The relay gets ground from where you are bolting it to.
You don't need 10 ga, 12 works as well.


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## cy7878 (Dec 8, 2013)

Thank you Brian for the clarification.


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## cy7878 (Dec 8, 2013)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003X16QRE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Bought one of these relay from Amazon. Did a bench test and found something interesting. Taking a 12V battery that read 12.43V on a multi-meter.
Connect positive to one of the big lug, negative to ground tabs. The volt-meter to the other big lug and ground. Using a second wire coming from positive battery terminal and connect to the small lug.

when I connect, I can hear the relay click. The volt-meter reads only 11.8V.

Does this mean I have some parasitic draw inside the relay? Should I get another one before laboring to install this one?

Thanks


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

"Parasitic draw" is the wrong concept, the wrong term to apply to this test.

You are seeing the results of resistive connections.
Resistance can be in your test set up or internally inside the relay such as the contacts.

Where you've made connections to the battery, did you go directly to the posts (d'oh, of course you did) and were the posts clean, bright metal?

A brand new relay tested as you've done that shows almost a half a volt drop and there's not even any load on it is one I'd reject.

Buy local and not the same as you've already bought.
Pump your parts counter person for one that's diode suppressed, a desirable feature for your DigiFant system. 
A bit of the google will explain diode suppression, what and why.






.


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## cy7878 (Dec 8, 2013)

As I'm driving home from my NAPA parts store with another relay. I came to me to measure the voltage across the battery, not across the relay terminals...


As Tousina said, the relay draws enough current to drop a weak battery by 1/2 volt across the terminal....

I'll check the new one to see if the new one also draws that much.

Thank you on the diode suppression info.


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

cy7878 said:


> ......... the relay draws enough current to drop a weak battery by 1/2 volt across the terminal.....


Draws and drops, two very different concepts, both may be at work here.

Draw is a load, a component doing work. Draws or Loads are generally measured in amps or decimal fractions of amps.
The component we're trying to get working well here is the starter solenoid.

Drops are resistive losses generally caused by age and corrosion of wires, terminals and switch contacts.
Resistance is measured in ohms, the drop across a resistance is measured in volts.

Voltage drop is pretty easy to measure and also happens to give the most complete and relevant view of circuit issues.

As age related resistance increases, so does the voltage drop.
As amperage draw across a resistive connection increases, so does the voltage drop.

Of minor significance with a good battery is the current (amperage) draw/load of a relay's coil.
---
Aw crap, relay operation needs a bit of explaining.
At it's most basic level, as here, a relay is a remotely controlled switch.

On these Ford style starter solenoid relays, the off/on switch contacts connect to the large posts.

The smaller terminal(s) connect to an electromagnetic coil that, when energized, generates a magnetic field which closes the switch contacts. 
The switch contacts, when closed, complete a circuit so that a device on that circuit can do work, here, the starter solenoid.
The switch contacts themselves do no work, draw no current, but if burned or corroded add resistance which causes a current reducing voltage drop in the circuit.

The coil is an actuator, it does draw current, it does do work (closing the switch contacts), it is a load, it draws amperage.
---
I took some live measurements today, I'll post them with an attempted explanation if there's response to this ^^.


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

tolusina said:


> Draws and drops, two very different concepts, both may be at work here.
> 
> Draw is a load, a component doing work. Draws or Loads are generally measured in amps or decimal fractions of amps.
> The component we're trying to get working well here is the starter solenoid.



All circuits Draw and Drop current and voltage, every connection, connector and wire adds resistance in micro-Ohms, and Amps.
Some can be measured in circuit with your ohm meter, while others as in circuit boards have to use special instruments to be read.
All Connections give off heat, some big heat, some tiny.


Our cars are older, and connection cleanliness is degrading. Connectors and the wires are getting brittle, and dirty and wires are breaking in the middle as the sheathing is getting hard and have lost the elasticity of the plastic so when you bend it it breaks.

Draw is the amount of current that is flowing in a circuit or connection (similar to the current in a river).
Drop is the voltage value felt or measured at the connection in reference to Ground (similar to sticking your toe in the river).

A drop of .5Vdc is significant. 
That is from ground to where you are checking.

Statically (not being used). There should be less than .05V dc difference between the Big Lug, that is connected to your battery.
Remember to use the Same ground point when checking voltages, that is because the Negative post on your battery may be at a different potential than your frame if your cables aren't clean and bright.

A Solenoid and a Relay work the same, the difference is in the amount of current they are rated at. Solenoids are usually for higher current capabilities, than relays. they are a low current device used to switch high current loads safely.

A relay or solenoid are a switch, and can be configured as double throw, single throw devices, meaning they can switch on/off many things or just a single thing and usually are in series to the circuit.

A relay or solenoid had 3 parts, a Pick coil, a lever, and contacts.
The pick coil is a small usually cylindrical spool of lacquered coated wire. When current is sent through this wire it produces a magnetic field that is used to draw a steel or iron plunger or reed into action.

The movement of this plunger or reed is used to Push or Pull the contacts of the switch to make or break connection.

A relay on the coil or pick side has one side sitting at either ground or B+ depending on the circuit design. 
The other side is connected to a physical switch on/off that you control. 

The relay or solenoids contacts are usually in series to the circuit. Again as with the pick one side has B+ or ground, and the other side will be open or float to the device that is being switched on.

The difference in Resistance of a closed set of relay contacts are minimal. But over time the contacts can get pitted or scorched and gain resistance, in the old days, the typical Electronics kit had contact burnishers, and or contact files so you could clean the contacts.

So in reality, you have to remember that if you are testing your device, use the same ground point.
Know what is going to be at each place when it is at rest or when it is being used.

Your starter solenoid that is being tested should be..
at rest (not under use).
12v on the terminal that is connected directly to the battery.
nothing on the Pick side of the coil.

On the ground plate there should be 0 V or 0 Ohms to the negative battery connection.

When being used, you may see 12V on both big lugs, maybe 11.5 as you are drawing current through the starter solenoid, and it is engaging the starter.
The Pick side of the relay should be at the same potential 12V or B+.

The funny thing about spools of wire that are used in a relay to pick, are electrically at a 0 value when measured with a Ohm meter, the true resistance in a spool of wire is measured in Impedance but expressed in OHM's. 

These same spools of wire are what is used in speakers, and microphones to mechanically covert changing voltages to sound that you hear or change vibrations from a microphone to current that the item can used to amplify.

A basic "Primer" for electrics can be found at.
http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/32254-Electric-Primer

How a relay works.
http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

My brain hurts.

Measuring a voltage drop is best done with a volt meter. One lead measures one end of the circuit, the other lead goes to the other side of the circuit. Neither lead is attached to ground [unless your checking a ground circuit]. It is a complete waste of time to measure the voltage signal twice and find the differences when one test will do it for you.

A large Ford type solenoid is overkill when controlling a circuit 50 [starting circuit] and looks like crap too under the hood. There are many smaller cube relays out there that will handle 30A [which is plenty] and is a smaller package that does not look so bad.


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## 70 miles (May 28, 2008)

I have this relay installed and have a heat shield wrapped around the starter. Do I really need both or can I use the heat shield alone?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

70 miles said:


> I have this relay installed and have a heat shield wrapped around the starter. Do I really need both or can I use the heat shield alone?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well if you want the starter to work after you have been driving it for a hour or so, I would. I have the heat shield and the heat soak relay on both of my Auto's....


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## 70 miles (May 28, 2008)

briano1234 said:


> Well if you want the starter to work after you have been driving it for a hour or so, I would. I have the heat shield and the heat soak relay on both of my Auto's....


Ok thanks. Just thought having both was overkill. It's been over 3 years with both heat shield and the relay and no starter heat soak problems at all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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