# New 2013 2.0T Q5 (CAEB Motor) - Break in Oil - Early Oil Change?



## amorak (Aug 27, 2007)

Hey Guys,

I have a new 2013 Audi Q5 with the 2.0T Direct Injection only motor (eg: prone to carbon build up on valves).

I am of the older school view that the initial oil fill will have a lot of metal filings etc from building and wear-in, so I'd like to change it earlier than the 10K KM normal service threshold Audi schedules....

But then I have heard they use "special break in oil" that I shouldn't dump early (just random stuff I'v heard, not from the dealer or anything)...

So I am torn - I'd like to get the excess metal out around 2K KM, but I don't want to 'rob' the motor of any low viscosity/whatever break-in oil they put in, as I am sure the engineers know best...


Thoughts?


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## Nosmo (May 26, 2002)

I just replaced the factory fill oil at 1000kms. It was watery (very thin ) and the oil filter canister clearly showed micro metal contamination ( or something) at the base.
I am led to believe that VW no longer uses a break in oil or additive. The factory fill in my 2.5L motor was synthetic ( as per owners manual ) but no mention of grade or make. I suspect 5w-30.
I am old school in my thinking and as I did the oil change myself, cost was low.
After seeing the condition of the oil I can not imagine leaving that in till 10k or more as recommended by VW.
No oil was burnt in the 1000kms so I am sure that the rings are bedded in. This is my 10th VW and I must add that I have never seen such a stupid oil filter setup as the 2.5l engine uses.
Followed VW procedure to the letter and oil filter canister is weeping.


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## shortybdub (Oct 14, 2011)

"Break-in" oil is a big myth. There have been numerous used oil analysis with brand new car oil to show nothing special about it. Acura did however dabble in factory fills with high moly content, but that was years ago. Metallurgy and oil technology has come a long way, but still does not completely overcome what an I/C engine does while breaking in. Engineers do know whats best, but the marketing bean counters keep them silent.

I changed my oil at ~750, 2500, and last one at 8200. UOAs on all just to see what was going on. First one had lots of wear metals, second had high fuel dilution from ring-pack not fully seated, and third settled down to what will be my regular interval. Now, did I want all that crap floating around the sump for 10K? Hell no. The ONLY reason VW "recommends" the 10K is to save some $$$ on the "free" service oil change. I believe that there are some that would do ok for 10K, but I'm not one of them. Dump it. What will it cost? $50? Well worth it if you want to keep your car for a long time.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

Not all break-in oil is not a myth. Subaru's factory fill uoa's show a more highly additized oil than what is a available from a dealer. I also confirmed this with Idemitsu, the manufacturer of Subaru oil. 

I do not think VW/Audi uses one though, or at least not one with metallic metals that show up in a uoa. It may be one of the VW Castrol Professional oils as it appears to be a lower SAPS oil. Lower SAPS oils have been shown to cause less carbon buildup on intake valves, although I do not believe the 2.0T in the Q5 is prone to buildup. 

A uoa on the factory fill shows slightly elevated wear metals, but nothing like they did 20 years ago. Here's one on a TTRS:
http://forums.quattroworld.com/tt2/msgs/26479.phtml
The factory fill is on the far right. 

Your first oil change is 5k miles and it's free. No reason to dump good oil before that, IMO. 

-Dennis


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## shortybdub (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis M said:


> Not all break-in oil is not a myth. Subaru's factory fill uoa's show a more highly additized oil than what is a available from a dealer. I also confirmed this with Idemitsu, the manufacturer of Subaru oil.
> 
> 
> -Dennis


How was it additized? I can understand more detergent/dispersant adds to combat the fuel dilution, but anything in the line of AW/EP adds? THOSE are what I would consider beneficial adds for a new engine and be considered a special "break-in" oil. Otherwise, its just plain oil with a better detergent package. No big deal.

And if you look at that UOA of the TTRS, and extrapolate the Fe content for those first 5K, you get 89ppm. Not what I want swimming around in the sump for very long. It did enough of a number on the soft copper bearing overlays and this was WITH early oil changes. And if he used the same oil throughout these changes, look at how the Ca and Mg took a hit in the early stages. Thats from blowby fuel dilution and it creates an insidious acidic soup that when you add alittle moisture will dine on the softer metals like those in the bearings. BTW, Blackstone's "open-cup" fuel reads are way optimistic.

Bottom line? Do what you want, its your car. If you plan to trade/sell in a few years, then do the minimum. If you plan to keep it for a while, let your gut direct you. Along with a bit of science and common sense :beer:.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

shortybdub said:


> How was it additized? I can understand more detergent/dispersant adds to combat the fuel dilution, but anything in the line of AW/EP adds? THOSE are what I would consider beneficial adds for a new engine and be considered a special "break-in" oil. Otherwise, its just plain oil with a better detergent package. No big deal.
> 
> And if you look at that UOA of the TTRS, and extrapolate the Fe content for those first 5K, you get 89ppm. Not what I want swimming around in the sump for very long. It did enough of a number on the soft copper bearing overlays and this was WITH early oil changes. And if he used the same oil throughout these changes, look at how the Ca and Mg took a hit in the early stages. Thats from blowby fuel dilution and it creates an insidious acidic soup that when you add alittle moisture will dine on the softer metals like those in the bearings. BTW, Blackstone's "open-cup" fuel reads are way optimistic.
> 
> Bottom line? Do what you want, its your car. If you plan to trade/sell in a few years, then do the minimum. If you plan to keep it for a while, let your gut direct you. Along with a bit of science and common sense :beer:.


The Subaru factory fill is additized with higher levels of molybdenum, zinc, and phosphorus than the dealer fill oil. 

89 parts per million is no big deal, IMO. If it was, I'm sure that VW/Audi would recommend the first oil change sooner (not that they've had a great oil track record in the past). Do you have any data showing that keeping the factory fill in for the recommend interval is harmful? And I'm not talking about a $25 uoa.  Maybe some oil company recommendations?? It's kind of difficult to know if the Ca and Mg took a hit when you don't have a VOA to compare.

Yes, I'm familiar with BS's open cup uoa readings and that it's extrapolated from the Flashpoint reading instead of an "actual" fuel reading. I guess you can ask me in five years if I've had any engine problems by not changing the factory fill for 5k miles in my wife's Q5.  Planning to do the same in my TTS.

-Dennis


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## shortybdub (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis M said:


> The Subaru factory fill is additized with higher levels of molybdenum, zinc, and phosphorus than the dealer fill oil.


Those AW/EP adds are what would be considered a benefit for a new vehicle. This difference could definately be construed as a "break-in" oil, but is most likely the exception instead of the rule.



Dennis M said:


> 89 parts per million is no big deal, IMO. If it was, I'm sure that VW/Audi would recommend the first oil change sooner (not that they've had a great oil track record in the past). Do you have any data showing that keeping the factory fill in for the recommend interval is harmful? And I'm not talking about a $25 uoa.  Maybe some oil company recommendations?? It's kind of difficult to know if the Ca and Mg took a hit when you don't have a VOA to compare.


While the iron may be "no big deal", it still had an effect on the new engine. Now will that be cause for concern down the road? Dunno, but for a small price of an oil change, I personally wouldn't risk it. I was basing the calcium and magnesium depletion on use of the same oil throughout. You're right, without a VOA, hard to draw a definitive conclusion, but can't think of any FF oils that I have seen with such low amounts. And with such high manganese levels, there is definately some fuel dilution issue. I don't put alot of faith in a "$25" UOA either, but this is the data you supplied. 




Dennis M said:


> Yes, I'm familiar with BS's open cup uoa readings and that it's extrapolated from the Flashpoint reading instead of an "actual" fuel reading.


I think its the other way around, Bstone produces flashpoint based on the open cup method for overall fuel content. Again not very accurate for fuel or flashpoint readings, but ya get what ya pay for.



Dennis M said:


> I guess you can ask me in five years if I've had any engine problems by not changing the factory fill for 5k miles in my wife's Q5.  Planning to do the same in my TTS.
> 
> -Dennis


I certainly wish you very uneventful driving experiences with your Audis. :beer: I'm not trying to say this is the definitive way of addressing the "to dump, or not to dump" the FF, just that some prefer to take it all with a grain of salt when the manufacturers say its perfectly ok to take factory oil all the way out to 10K (VW). Especially in light of the bean counters doing everything possible to keep cost of operation low and count on folks just needing to make it to the end of warranty and then get into a new car. Will it make a difference with me to dump it early? Hard to say, but it makes me feel better and thats what its all about.

Happy Motoring!


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## TooSlick (Feb 17, 2000)

Changing oil more frequently won't help solve the issue of carbonaceous material building up on the back of the intake valves - indeed it may well make it worse. The reason is that the most volatile components of the base oil and additives (including polymeric thickeners), evaporate in the first few thousand miles after an oil change and find their way to the intake tract through the PCV plumbing. After this occurs the remaining oil is actually more thermally stable.

I would run a low SAPS, "VW 504.00/507.00" oil in this application and I'd run it as long as possible based on oil analysis testing. That will probably turn out to be 5000-7500 miles, depending on the severity of driving conditions.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

shortybdub said:


> ... just that some prefer to take it all with a grain of salt when the manufacturers say its perfectly ok to take factory oil all the way out to 10K (VW)...


For clarification, the OP's first oil change is at 5k miles instead of 10k miles. :beer:


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## shortybdub (Oct 14, 2011)

Dennis M said:


> For clarification, the OP's first oil change is at 5k miles instead of 10k miles. :beer:


Thats why the VW was in parentheses .

Which begs the question, why, since the 2.0T is essentially the same (save for the variable valve lift and timing in the Audi app.) does one brand allow for its oil changes at 5K and the other 10K? Must be connected to profit margin.


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## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

shortybdub said:


> Thats why the VW was in parentheses .
> 
> Which begs the question, why, since the 2.0T is essentially the same (save for the variable valve lift and timing in the Audi app.) does one brand allow for its oil changes at 5K and the other 10K? Must be connected to profit margin.


Audi's first oil change is free, regardless of whether or not you purchase Audi Care. Maybe ask VWoA?


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