# Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V



## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

We call read max dyno torque and hp figures, but how to read the "curves" vrs AFR. Your opinions about this dyno (on a Dynojet).
1847cc, 8V P&P head, big cam, CIS (totally mechanical)...
http://i15.photobucket.com/alb...t.jpg


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## jerrymic (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MancusoGTI8v)*

those are some really good numbers for just a p&p and cam... your AFR is really flat and stays flat thoughout the rpm range, which is good because your fueling is tuned very well (which I hear can be a challenge w/ CIS)... your hp climbs very nicely... your torque dances around a bit but I don't think its anything out of the norm... could be a result of your p&p depending on how extensive the ports got worked


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MancusoGTI8v)*

Very strong motor! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Gotta love the amazing job CIS is doing for you








Who did your port work? What's the setup... I'm sure we'd all like to know








I'd say you have a few more whp by richening things out slightly... 


_Modified by Peter Tong at 7:16 PM 3-31-2008_


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## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Peter Tong)*

Thanks for the good feedback...
The engine is based on a stock 1.8L block with stock crank and rods but ABA pistons. Ported head (aggressive porting). No gaskets between intake/exhaust manifolds and head (port matched). Mechanical lifters, I think a TT 288 cam (lovely idle...). Ported stock 4-2-1 header, no cat and 2.5 inch exhaust. C/R 11.5. I don´t know who ported the head. It was for sale, looked like a good job...
Bsic CIS (no lamdba no nothing). Using a Euro 16v dizzy with mercedes brass injectors and "stock" FPR. Suspected it needed more fuel up top...
Engine is on a 1750 lbs rabbit....fun car to drive!!! Trans 2Y 020 with 3.94 final and lightened flywheel.
Planning to go turbo...with CIS, just got G60 pistons and Volvo 240T dizzy and FPR... CIS RULES! Plan to use lightly ported head with G60 cam.8-10 psi.
Like to keep things OEM...small budgets...




_Modified by MancusoGTI8v at 3:03 AM 4-1-2008_


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Peter Tong)*

Very nice powerband. 132 whp is damn good from a 1.8L 8v. I would also like to know what kind of head modifications were done. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MancusoGTI8v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MancusoGTI8v* »_Using a Euro 16v dizzy 
What is the advantage of this? Are you running it for the knock sensor setup or another reason?

_Quote »_Planning to go turbo...with CIS, just got G60 pistons and Volvo 240T dizzy and FPR... CIS RULES! Plan to use lightly ported head with G60 cam.8-10 psi.
 Want to sell the head?


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## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Tom A)*

The euro 16v has a different plate, it is bigger in diameter but the walls are stepper... 
No, the head is not for sale. More info... ported, port matched, biggest valves you can fit (7mm), 3 way valve seats, no unshrounding, mechanical lifters, 288 TT cam.
So, back to subject. the AFR looks a little lean them?


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MancusoGTI8v)*

You mentioned that you are using ABA pistons in your current 1.8L block. If you go with G60 pistons for the turbo setup, aren't you going to have to get another block? 
Going from memory, the 1.8L = 81mm bore, and ABA = 82.5mm bore.
How do you like the cam? I'm also running a TT 288 cam in my ABA Crossflow on CIS and I Love it. Are you running the stock Idle air bypass valve? I eliminated my idle air bypass valve and have managed to get the 288 to idle fairly steady at 900 RPM.


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## jerrymic (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Jettaboy1884)*

Mancuso, yeah, you look like you're running just a bit lean... also why are you running without gaskets between your manifolds, that's interesting...
mike, I believe that the solid lifter and hydraulic lifter TT 288 cams are a bit different... if I recall the hydraulic lifter is 245* of duration and .460 lift and the solid lifter 288 is 250* w/ .440 lift... it may make them just a bit different in the powerband... but you may have already known that... 


_Modified by jerrymic at 11:27 AM 4-2-2008_


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (jerrymic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jerrymic* »_mike, I believe that the solid lifter and hydraulic lifter TT 288 cams are a bit different... if I recall the hydraulic lifter is 245* of duration and .460 lift and the solid lifter 288 is 250* w/ .440 lift... it may make them just a bit different in the powerband... but you may have already known that... 


I didn't know that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'd imagine a solid lifter setup provides a more precise and controlled opening and closing of the valve, since there is no (oil filled) gap between the lifter and the valve stem.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

Fuel looks nice and constant, but a bit lean. EDIT x2 - No it is in the 14-15s. Try to get it in the 12.5-12.7 range and see if that makes a difference.
Do you have a way to adjust fuel?
Please share.


_Modified by chois at 3:05 PM 4-2-2008_


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## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

*Re: (chois)*

We were going to install a FPR from a Volvo 240t to try to get more fuel, also 1-2 shims in the dizzy to bump system pressure...
Also, forgot to mention that we were using premium fuel+torco (additives).


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## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Jettaboy1884)*

...


_Modified by MancusoGTI8v at 6:56 AM 4-4-2008_


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## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Jettaboy1884)*

For the turbo CIS, I am going to use another block and head...need 8ish C/R, and in that engine I was 11.5


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## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MancusoGTI8v)*

Pict of valves...


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## MancusoGTI8v (May 24, 2002)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MancusoGTI8v)*

But a good secret is this...
first photo is of a normal A1 Cis dyzzy...









Second picture is of a Euro GTI dyzzy...








That meant 12.5 WHP... cannot find the dyno to prove it...


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MancusoGTI8v)*

Is that first A1 distributor from a GTI, or a regular CIS car?


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Jettaboy1884)*

contrary to popular belief of the 288 being too big for FI... its a load of complete crap, keep the 288 when you go turbo, trust me.
also, you should be spinning that 288 out longer, to at least 7200, hp didnt start to drop on mine til about 7400.
you should be able to switch over to an msd box so u can up the rpm a little, i havent experimented with cis basic much, just standalone.
maybe try experimenting with an adj cam gear, shift a little more power up top. 
good #'s tho http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (the4ork)*

TT shows that the 288* has the following specs:
288 camshaft measured @ .050" 
Advertised Duration: 288* 
Duration @ .050" 245*/244* 
Valve Lift: .460” / .460” 
Lift @ TDC: Unknown 
Centerlines: 110.5* / 109.5* 
Lobe Center: 110* 
Valve Timing: 12/53 – 51.5/12.5 
Valve Overlap: 24.5*

Is 24.5* of overlap too much for a FI setup? I was under the impression that you want very minimal overlap so that the pressurized air doesn't escape through the still open exhaust valve.
I have my 288* set at about 0 advance/retard. It pulls pretty hard up until about 7k RPM. I have not messed with the timing, as I have some other tuning to do to the engine.
Have you considered going to an EDIS setup? I just picked up the parts from a local junkyard, and plan to convert the ignition in my '83 GTI to the ford EDIS-4.


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## jerrymic (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (the4ork)*

the4ork:
corky bell would not agree with you... if FI is matched w/ a 288 cam you're losing a lot of charge right out of your tail pipe... overlap makes sense NA because of the scavaging affect... it doesn't make sense for FI since the intake is pressurized... there are subtle differences between the optimal cams for turbo FI vs. supercharger FI but that depends a lot on setup but huge overlap is never optimal for FI


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (jerrymic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jerrymic* »_the4ork:
corky bell would not agree with you... if FI is matched w/ a 288 cam you're losing a lot of charge right out of your tail pipe... overlap makes sense NA because of the scavaging affect... it doesn't make sense for FI since the intake is pressurized... there are subtle differences between the optimal cams for turbo FI vs. supercharger FI but that depends a lot on setup but huge overlap is never optimal for FI

overlap adds power, it will work your turbo a tiny bit harder to keep up, but as long as your not pushing the snail to the limit already you can add in a 288...
the boys over in jdm land are running similiar or more duration for FI and they make 600+ dynos all the time


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (the4ork)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the4ork* »_overlap adds power,
Explain why you think this is true.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Tom A)*

In a FI setup, the overlap will waste a lot of fuel as the mixture goes straight out the exhaust valve...


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## LaneGTI8V (Jan 31, 2006)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (Tom A)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tom A* »_Explain why you think this is true.

I'm not saying that his explanation is correct, but I've seen many forced induction cars running bigger cams with much success. Maybe it's not from the overlap solely, but I will say that big cams are not strictly for NA.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (LaneGTI8V)*

big in lift or big in duration?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (ps2375)*

Empirically speaking, and for counterflow 8v *supercharged* applications at least, cams in the 270s range seem to be just fine... if you doubt what I'm saying just cruise on over to the G60 whp list, and you'll find that the highest whp cars are quite cammed


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (ps2375)*

im no expert, and i wish i still had an 8vT to play with to confirm it....
all im saying is the 288 doesnt have a whole lot of overlap...
on a g60 with a 12psi pully and a big cam, your not going to see 12psi (a buddy of mine has been experimenting with this) he upgraded from a stock cam to a nuespeed cam, lost a little bit of boost but gained some power, and when he went with a 268 same thing.
i've personally had good luck with cams that are "too big" according to vortex FI standards.
if i were you i'd try it out and see if you like it, if its not your cup of tea go down to a 270 or 268.
another common misconception on the tex is the .48 housing... garbage, 8v needs a .68 housing if your planning on running a bigger cam and over 10psi, ive ran a .68 57trim t3/t4 on my 8v and imo was the nicest matched turbo motor ive driven so far...
im no fan of lag, instant boost is not worth crap on a street car if your planning on going over 200hp, all that tq/hp early on in the power band will result in wheelspin, even on R compound tires... trust me, lag is your friend if your running a decent amount of boost, especially in a light car.
we all know the 1.8t has virtually no lag (in my opinion) and that motor in a mk2 with the boost cranked up is undrivable... too much wheelspin everywhere, and im running 205/50/15 falken azenis 615's which are pretty sticky
i dont mean to rant its all in your driving taste...
small turbine housing for max spool + small cam is fun for daily driving, until you turn the boost up (this is how most factory cars are setup)
but i prefer bigger turbine housing, bigger cams, max power/tq up top, little down below... this way when you rev the motor out your it gives you tons of power in return, but when at lower rpms at cruize around town/on the highway or just puttin around town its just like any other engine and still makes cool noises http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif also not having the boost come on really hard all at once (like you do with a small turbine housing) helps not to shock the tranny with tons of instant tq, it will live longer
im temporarily upgrading from the k03s on my 1.8t to a t3 .48 trim... only cause im poor right now and i had the turbo laying around... plus i have the motor out to fix the clutch i snapped in half


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (the4ork)*

Hi,
I definitely agree with this... I wish folks would just experiment much like your friend is instead of just accepting VCW (Vortex conventional wisdom







) all the time








I don't agree that 200hp and lots of early torque is undriveable... at least not with the twin screw. With a smallish pully the throttle response is pretty insane (i like the motor to feel like a very big naturally aspirated version of the same), and since the air mass/boost entering the motor is directly tied to throttle opening (just like when you were naturally aspirated) its pretty easy to modulate torque. But I'm going way ot








best regards,
Peter T


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (the4ork)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the4ork* »_contrary to popular belief of the 288 being too big for FI... its a load of complete crap, keep the 288 when you go turbo, trust me.
also, you should be spinning that 288 out longer, to at least 7200, hp didnt start to drop on mine til about 7400.
you should be able to switch over to an msd box so u can up the rpm a little, i havent experimented with cis basic much, just standalone.
maybe try experimenting with an adj cam gear, shift a little more power up top. 
good #'s tho http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Really? Did you have a honda head on it? 288's fall off about 6500.
This is the biggest and best Eurospec 8v head, full race engine.








306* shrick cam on dual 45 carbs
And N/M the air fuel reading, it had a bad sampler. Adjustable cam gears let you compensate for cut heads and blocks. They aren't going to change a cam that falls off around 6500 up by 1000 rpm. If the air can't flow, the cam won't make a difference.
Peter's the man as far as forced induction goes. He's been there, done that. Much cheaper to learn from experience.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (MkIIRoc)*

Bump for this thread since this dyno still rocks for a 1.8








It would rock for a 2.0 for that matter


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## 84_GLI_coupe (Apr 3, 2001)

*Re: Help me "reading" this dyno. 1.8 8V (the4ork)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the4ork* »_
the boys over in jdm land are running similiar or more duration for FI and they make 600+ dynos all the time

I know this is an older post, but....
- Japanese engines making that much power are all dual cam engines, that can set their installed centerline AND OVERLAP with cheap cam gears. They set their overlap manually.


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