# Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda



## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

Interested in adding a LM-1 with wide band meter to my CIS lambda setup . Any experience with this type of setup?


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*

I assume you mean integrating the LM-1 into the vehicle since just connecting it for testing is pretty straight forward.
I have lots with CIS-E and got some advice from Klaus Allmendinger regarding Lambda - specifically on a Cabby but it should apply to about any VW CIS-L. Thread here: http://www.innovatemotorsports...=3437 
He said that he did this on his daughters Cabby...
Connect a relay so the wiper is feeding the O2 input of the OCY CU. Then hook Analog 2 to the NC contact, Analog 1 to the NO contact and +12V from the WOT switch to the relay coil. Disconnect the WOT input to the OXY CU so it doesnt go into open loop at WOT. Use the default NB program in Analog 2 and program Analog 1 so it has the same slope as Analog 2 but with its .45V point is wherever you would like the AFR at WOT. 
I tried this on my CIS-E setup but the KE-Jet OXY CU would sense the change-over and take about 5 seconds to move the DPR current to the new values in response to the change. I tried a number of tweeks including de-glitching the relay output and changing the slopes (and thus end AFR points of the analog outputs) to no avail. He indicated this was not a problem with his Lambda setup. The KA-Jet and KE-Jet use different part number OXY CU. Since I am not running Lambda I have no way to confirm first hand this works as he described (or works on other variants of the CIS OXY CU) but the connections are simple enough that giving it a try is certainly worth it for the possible gain. From ETKA it appears all the Rabbits and Golfs with KA-Jet used the same variant OXY -CU ( 035 906 263 F) so I wouldnt expect results to vary. 



_Modified by wclark at 7:55 AM 9-14-2009_


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## DPatt (Mar 16, 2007)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*

I've been running an lc-1 on my magnacharged GTI, and it works great. I use the simulated narrowband output to control the freq. valve. You can program it to keep the afr where you want it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (DPatt)*

Thanks - thats all very helpful data.
I guess its the lc-1 with wideband digital readout is what I need.


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*

The LC-1 will do everything the LM-1 does but the data logging - and of course it doesnt have the built-in display. 
FWIW I have been following the Innovate forum on the new LM-2 which replaces the LM-1. Seems like a lot of buyers have had issues with the LM-2...things not working out of the box or working for a short time then failing. By comparison the LM-1 seems pretty bulletproof. Recently one of my racing friends bought an LM-2 and has it data logging in his car. His had a dead analog input channel out of the box and he has been struggling with the RPM reporting way high but only at high RPM. Klaus seems to not be involved in the support side anymore and the support person is either overwhelmed or unfortunately too typical of customer service these days - not helpful - leaving people unhappy.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (wclark)*

It's a shame what's happened with the LM-2. It's got a GREAT set of features but from all I've been reading, I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. Innovate's failure to adequately address all of these issues is doing serious, perhaps irreparable, harm to their once excellent reputation.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ABA Scirocco)*

anyone use a PLX device?
http://www.plxdevices.com/wideband.html
Can't tell if its programable, also looks to have only one analog output per unit.


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_Interested in adding a LM-1 with wide band meter to my CIS lambda setup . Any experience with this type of setup?


where do I find one of these?


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (MKIGTITDI)*

If you want the LM-1 do a web search for Innovate LM-1. It has been replaced by the LM-2 but I think there are still a number of resellers with them. The LC-1 and LM-2 are available from a number of places including Jegs, Summit, and some of the advertisers here. Again a web search with Innovate and the model will get you to them. Info can be found at Innovate: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (wclark)*

So would a LC-1 work to control my csi? It's the stock csi out of an 84 gti. Im really interested in this. I looked up that site and it seems like a reasonable upgrade so please help me out on this.


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (MKIGTITDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKIGTITDI* »_So would a LC-1 work to control my csi? It's the stock csi out of an 84 gti. Im really interested in this. I looked up that site and it seems like a reasonable upgrade so please help me out on this.

I am not sure how to easily implement it on a CIS-basic, which I assume you have.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (wclark)*

The GTI has k-jet, with narrow band O2. The setup mentioned above looks to be best done on the k-jet setup.
I think the question I have is how to setup the relays, but that can't be all that complex. I just need to sell a stage 3 intake and I'll be building this setup and post the instructions on my site(scientificrabbit.com)


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## DPatt (Mar 16, 2007)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*

Cool, I want to do the relay set up also http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_The GTI has k-jet, with narrow band O2. The setup mentioned above looks to be best done on the k-jet setup.
I think the question I have is how to setup the relays, but that can't be all that complex. I just need to sell a stage 3 intake and I'll be building this setup and post the instructions on my site(scientificrabbit.com)


OK, if it has the O2 sensor then it is easy.
A small 12V relay like this: http://www.radioshack.com/prod...62481 a bit of wire and some soldering.
Since ny_fam plans to do a writeup, I will leave that to him and just write a bit on the concept.

Key points.
In closed loop operation the K-Jet will try to keep the O2 sensor input to an average of about .45V by increasing or decreasing enrichment via the frequency valve assuming averaging .45 results in an engine running at stochiometric. It does not know what the AFR is only what the O2 sensor input voltage is. So if we tell the ECU stochiometric is .1V and 13.7:1 AFR is .45V (as we are going to do at WOT) it is perfectly happy to drive the enrichment to 13.7:1 (Lambda = .85). 
LC-1/sensor replaces the stock NB O2 sensor. Analog 1 out is already programmed to look like a stock NB (Lambda 1.0 in the middle, etc. ), the other analog output needs to be set with a similar range (0-1V) but centered on your Lambda of choice (e.g. .85 - AFR 13.7:1 on normal gasoline) for WOT. You need a Windows PC and serial cable (RS-232 to RS-232 or RS-232 to USB) to do this.
WOT switch is disconnected from the K-Jet ECU so it does not go open loop at WOT but continues to use the O2 sensor input.
The relay connects both LC-1 analog outputs (one at a time) to the O2 sensor input on the K-Jet ECU. Normal throttle positions has the Analog 1 (stock NB simulation) routed thru and WOT energizes the relay routing the reprogrammed Analog 2 thru. 
In practice any wideband controller could do the same thing as the LC-1/LM-1 so long as it has 2 programmable analog outputs. From what I see there arent too many others that have this. Also any other wideband controller should be able to calibrate itself against the sensor itself because sensors age and output versus oxygen content changes, causing errors in the output if not calibrated periodically. The LM-1/LC-1 have a provision for doing this.


_Modified by wclark at 2:18 PM 10-8-2009_


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (wclark)*

If you happen to be using a wide band sensor system that has only one programmable analog output, is there any reason that you could not just weld in a second O2 sensor bung, install both a wide band and standard narrow band O2 sensor and use the relay to switch between the wide and narrow band relay sensor outputs?


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_If you happen to be using a wide band sensor system that has only one programmable analog output, is there any reason that you could not just weld in a second O2 sensor bung, install both a wide band and standard narrow band O2 sensor and use the relay to switch between the wide and narrow band relay sensor outputs?

In theory that would work. 
Reminds me to repeat something for readers. In theory, switching between sensors or multiple outputs of a single sensor should work in about any application. Klaus (Innovate Motorsports) indicated this worked specifically for him on his daughters VW CIS-L Cabby. I tried this method using my Golf GTI with CIS-E and it did not work. I assumed my ECU somehow saw a glitch when switching that the CIS-L did not. I was never able to find a way (and I tried several including filters and buffers) to convince it to respond to the "new" input quickly. In my case it would transition but only slowly over about 10 seconds after the signal changeover. And there is a story from an Audi CIS-E owner on here that his ECU would not behave as most of the VW CIS-E do when switching a resistor into the CTS input. So it is worth mentioning again that some of these things may not work the same everywhere.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (wclark)*

I fully understand that it may not work. As I see it its an experiment, like so many other upgrades. Sounds like a scientific experiment. 
I've heard similar stories about the CIS-e system not responding to quick changes like that, but in a different more simple configuration. I'm willing to try it out. Worst case is that I get better part throttle fueling and a wideband meter to see what the air/fuel is doing.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (MKIGTITDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKIGTITDI* »_
where do I find one of these?

http://www.diyautotune.com/cat...933d4


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_
http://www.diyautotune.com/cat...933d4


I am sure you realize this but others may not. The Innovate "kits" that include the LC-1 and meter (the meter is either the DB or G series) that sell for the low $2xx range require one of the LC-1 analog outputs to connect the meter. The kits that sell for about $100 more include a gauge (XD-16) that is fed from the LC-1 RS-232 (serial data out) so the 2 analog outputs are still available. I mention this because like many resellers, the DIYAutoTune catalog shows the kits with analog input gauges first and for only few bucks more than the LC-1/WB sensor by itself. So it may be tempting to get that, only to find that you cant hook it up if you need both analog outputs for your fuel enrichment project.
Also, for anyone interested but confused by the number of Innovate controllers (LC-1, LM-1, LM-2), gauges (DB, G2, G3, G4, G5, XD-16), you can go thru everything at the Innovate Products page http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php, the individual manuals at: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support.php, or you can download and install the Logworks3 Installer 3.10 software package http://www.innovatemotorsports...p.exe for windows which will not only give you a chance to play with the software used to program and monitor the controllers but you will find the .pdf manuals for the controllers and most of the input expanders in your c:\program files\Logworks3 directory. Reading the manuals will give you a clear idea what the differences in the controllers are. There is a product feature comparison page at the Innovate site http://www.innovatemotorsports...d.php but they removed the LM-1 and it does not list all their current products so it is incomplete.


_Modified by wclark at 8:37 AM 10-9-2009_


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## noizze (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*

Derek, I have an 88 Cabby with DIS Lambda and I have installed a LC-1 in it. Works a treat!
Two things to watch out for:
1. The LC-1 will use more power at start up than a Narrow O2 as it warms up in about 30 sec or less and a Narrow O2 takes a bit longer (less current). So make sure the connection is up to snuff. I could not get mine to work though the factory power terminals. Hard wired the connections and it worked fine.
2. The default narrow simulation on the LC-1 works fine BUT, try flattening out the transfer from rich to lean. Just keep Lambda=.45V. Using averaging just makes the output lethargic, I don't recommend it.
I installed an led AFR gauge, and noticed my Narrow O2 swung about 2 AFR around Stoic. When I put the LC-1 in with the default Narrow sim it swung full scale and ran a bit odd. After flattening out the transfer curve it now swings about .5-.75AFR. The car runs great and the mileage has improved. Now I just need to mod the WUR so WOT isn't so rich. It hits 10:1,







a narrow band would have never told me that.
Some may say a WB O2 is a waste in an older VW but, the sensors a damn near the same price, and the LC-1 will tell you when something is wrong. Not after you notice your gas mileage has gone to crap. Ditch the Narrows and bring your MK1/2 into the new millennium.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (noizze)*

Thanks for the info,
BTW - take a look at the setup above, use the second output to control wot. Getting less fuel out the CPR is hard to do.


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## noizze (Aug 19, 2003)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_Thanks for the info,
BTW - take a look at the setup above, use the second output to control wot. Getting less fuel out the CPR is hard to do.

I have considered that solution but, I feel it is a bit of a band aid. Besides my cold start enrichment is also far to rich for my liking. In the winter my AFR is 10:1 or less for up to three minutes of running. With a 10 minute drive that is simply unacceptable. It will make the tuning easier when the 2liter gets dropped in.


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## GTIspirit (Dec 13, 2002)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (wclark)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wclark* »_
The kits that sell for about $100 more include a gauge (XD-16) that is fed from the LC-1 RS-232 (serial data out) so the 2 analog outputs are still available. 

Anyone know anything about the serial communication for the gauge? What is the communication protocol? Is it CAN or something else?


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (GTIspirit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIspirit* »_
Anyone know anything about the serial communication for the gauge? What is the communication protocol? Is it CAN or something else?

It's RS-232. Off hand, I'm not sure what the actual bit stream looks like but Innovate has published a detailed description and they also provide a software development kit to those interested in integrating 3rd party equipment with their Logworks software


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## GTIspirit (Dec 13, 2002)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ABA Scirocco)*

Hmmm, I see that they make the serial protocol for the LM-1 available online, but the serial protocol for the LC-1 is available only on request. Just wondering if the LC-1 uses a CAN based communication that can be easily read by common CAN HW & SW, once the configuration is known.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (GTIspirit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIspirit* »_ Just wondering if the LC-1 uses a CAN based communication that can be easily read by common CAN HW & SW, once the configuration is known.

I don't think so since the LC-1 can be connected to almost any other member of the Innovate family of products and uses the same Logworks software so I think the LC-1's (protocol might just be a minor variation or maybe a subset) of the LM-1's protocol.


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_The GTI has k-jet, with narrow band O2. The setup mentioned above looks to be best done on the k-jet setup.
I think the question I have is how to setup the relays, but that can't be all that complex. I just need to sell a stage 3 intake and I'll be building this setup and post the instructions on my site(scientificrabbit.com)


Have you installed one of these kits on your car yet? How did it go?


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Experience with LM-1 on CIS w/ Lambda (MKIGTITDI)*

Sorry no - Its on the list but right now I'm investing in either carbon fiber tooling - as I'd like to make a better intake tube and a better lower section for the CIS air meter. 
or more parts for the flow bench to flow test vw 8v heads.


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