# Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V



## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (Header upgrade in progess !)*

Hi, 
I'm currently tuning up my digifant I eqquipped engine and I would like to have some information about best target AFR for max power output. 
here's my actual set up :
Stock Block
Short snout M.90 with 70mm pulley
schrick 268/276 (not adjust yet), 
W5DPO plugs
305cc injectors
Stock exhaust mainfold
supersprint exhaust line (no cata converter), 
Ported TB. 
Bosch 250Kpa sensor eqquiped Digifant I ECU
R.a.ll.y.e FMIC
Wideband, IAT, EGT(have to repalce it







)

Here are some datalogs :
IAT vs MAP vs RPM in 4th and 5th gear

Here's a freeway pull from yesterday night 5th gear 

Last time I had EGT info it was not more than 600Â°C. 
I think it's lil bit low... 
My AFR is around 12-13 for instance. 
From what i saw higer than 13 was not that good 
Do you guy have any ideas about this ? 
Thanks a lot 




_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 2:26 AM 3-1-2010_


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Bring that high end leanness down to 12:1 and you'll be golden.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

It looks to me like your a little rich, target for 12.5 and address why its leaning out at higher rpm. max power is between 12.5 - 13.


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (Rocco R16V)*

it looks like you've run out of fuel flow... either pump or injectors, but... if the injectors went static, you would see a fat dip in the a/f curve.
A safe target for boosted PG is in the 11.5-12.0 range for ~15psi.
If I'm seeing correctly, you are right at 20psi from your logs. I would give up the 10 hp that it might cost you and shoot more for 11.0-11.2:1 a/f. 
Are you seeing any vacuum when cruising? last time I saw an M90 on an 8V Corrado, it caused so much drag that it would never see vacuum while cruising. The bypass couldn't handle the volume of air chugging through and the charger created uber drag. Pullied for 15psi with a ported head on a 2L and a 268-276 cam. When pullied for 10psi (stock T-bird pulley) vacuum was restored.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_
A safe target for boosted PG is in the 11.5-12.0 range for ~15psi.
If I'm seeing correctly, you are right at 20psi from your logs. I would give up the 10 hp that it might cost you and shoot more for 11.0-11.2:1 a/f. 

Agreed Jwatts is da MAN! and knows his stuff.
but he did ask for max power not safest tune


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

NEVER suggest 12.5-13:1 for a boosted tune...especially over the Vortex. Someone will take that to heart and start a 140 page thread about how his engine blew up and he doesn't know why.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_NEVER suggest 12.5-13:1 for a boosted tune...especially over the Vortex. Someone will take that to heart and start a 140 page thread about how his engine blew up and he doesn't know why.

point taken, lots of sheep out there that dont understand A/F is only one part of many that makes up a good tune.
OK I should have said "for absolute max power ragged edge very risky one small thing goes wrong and BOOM, the A/F ratio should be around 12.75". for a safer tune do what most do and target 11.5:1


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Hi guys thanks a lot for your answers.
I'm very greatfull !!!























_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_Bring that high end leanness down to 12:1 and you'll be golden.



_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_It looks to me like your a little rich, target for 12.5 and *address why its leaning out at higher rpm*.
*I've noticed it aslo every time I'm reaching 4.5k starting to lean out.
I'm gona do some monitoring on fuel rails pressure







 *
max power is between 12.5 - 13.









That what I saw in my last freeway test ... 

_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_it looks like you've run out of fuel flow... either pump or injectors, but... if the injectors went static, you would see a fat dip in the a/f curve.
_*Gotta check it out !! I'll maybe try to rise main injection map value in this range to see what happen.
I've got a stock fuel pump, stock FPR, and 305cc injectors. 
So if fuel flow is not enough I should change my pump because there's no meaning in rising my fuel pressure or changing for bigger injectors in this case, don't you think? 
*_
A safe target for boosted PG is in the 11.5-12.0 range for ~15psi.
If I'm seeing correctly, you are right at 20psi from your logs. 
_*Yes, starting from ~3.5K with ISV boost regulation *_
I would give up the 10 hp that it might cost you and shoot more for 11.0-11.2:1 a/f. 
Are you seeing any vacuum when cruising? 
*Yes cruising at 110km/h absotute MAP is aroud 90kpa (i'll do some more test next time, cause this is an intersting question!)
Here's my supercharger set up with bypass recirculation (3inch inlet and outlet):*
 
_*and here's my TB porting :*_
 
last time I saw an M90 on an 8V Corrado, it caused so much drag that it would never see vacuum while cruising. The bypass couldn't handle the volume of air chugging through and the charger created uber drag. Pullied for 15psi with a ported head on a 2L and a 268-276 cam.  
*Looks like I'm Ok with my set up, It's maybe the vaccum generated by the supercharger inlet and the TB porting that flows better at low position ???







*
When pullied for 10psi (stock T-bird pulley) vacuum was restored.

I've planned to do some waste gate style regulation bypass but my next step will be an ABF with big cams so we'll see what happen...

_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_NEVER suggest 12.5-13:1 for a boosted tune...especially over the Vortex. Someone will take that to heart and start a 140 page thread about how his engine blew up and he doesn't know why.

LMAO

















_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_
point taken, lots of sheep out there that dont understand A/F is only one part of many that makes up a good tune.
_*
OOHHHH YYEAAAAHHHH !!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Your pretty righ, my first goal is to obtain good fuel enrichment and WOT curves (trying to remove or recue digilag to get open loop as soon as possibble !!!!) then i'll check out the ignition timing (with knock listening) and see was happen with A/F and so on... *_
OK I should have said "for absolute max power ragged edge very risky one small thing goes wrong and BOOM, the A/F ratio should be around 12.75". for a safer tune do what most do and target 11.5:1










LMAO !!!!








Assuming that there is no turbocharger connected to my mainfold(so less back pressure), EGT should be lower for target A/F ? 
Here's my monitoring set up :


Thanks again I'll take everything of what you guys said into accout. 
I'll keep you guys updated for sure !!!

Merry Xmas

















_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 6:02 AM 12-24-2009_


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

I found that my digi-lag went away when I bumped up the Accel-Delta MAP a LOT. Also, cutting the O2 wire and tuning open loop also works well







. The map is RICH in stock form, without the O2 input. Like 11:1 rich







.
http://www.ecuconnections.com has a LOT of G60 chipping info







.


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

Were you able to keep the A/C in this conversion and would you be willing to make/sell the brackets you mounted the m90 with?


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

there is no AC pulley in the slide show so no, there is no ac in that car


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (abacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abacorrado* »_Were you able to keep the A/C in this conversion and would you be willing to make/sell the brackets you mounted the m90 with?


Hi,
I've never had A/C because I have FMIC.
I'm sorry but the brackets are not for sale. 
It took a whole month for my brothers and I to design, adjsut and weld it ! It's made from stainless steel.
Sorry...


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_I found that my digi-lag went away when I bumped up the Accel-Delta MAP a LOT. Also, cutting the O2 wire and tuning open loop also works well







. The map is RICH in stock form, without the O2 input. Like 11:1 rich







.
http://www.ecuconnections.com has a LOT of G60 chipping info







.

Thanks for the link (I'm connected now) I've seen it in this link : http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4226894
I'm carring a lot about this...
Can you give me some more explanaition about your Accel-Delta MAP a LOT modification please







( a before and after picture ???) .
I've modified mine with no result.
I got great improuvement by increasing (heavely) sustained WOT map (Open loop comes faster and much better !!!
But still have digilag















But I would like to keep my O2 connected








Regards


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_
Are you seeing any vacuum when cruising? last time I saw an M90 on an 8V Corrado, it caused so much drag that it would never see vacuum while cruising. The bypass couldn't handle the volume of air chugging through and the charger created uber drag. Pullied for 15psi with a ported head on a 2L and a 268-276 cam. When pullied for 10psi (stock T-bird pulley) vacuum was restored.

I can tell you for sure now !
The faster the engine spins the more you've got vaccum at part throttle when cruising.
Specially for me cause I've got 215/35/16 tyres. 
Absolute mainfold pressure is betwen 75 and 90Kpa.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

I suggest everyone use that website BTW


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M90SyncroRallyeGolf* »_
Thanks for the link (I'm connected now) I've seen it in this link : http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4226894
I'm carring a lot about this...
Can you give me some more explanaition about your Accel-Delta MAP a LOT modification please







( a before and after picture ???) .
I've modified mine with no result.
I got great improuvement by increasing (heavely) sustained WOT map (Open loop comes faster and much better !!!
But still have digilag















But I would like to keep my O2 connected








Regards


Well, I haven't tested it on a boosted car yet, but here's a screen shot. I went out with my emulator and laptop, and played with the table until I was satisfied. By increasing the values, I was able to remove the lean spot that was happening when I went WOT (I'm not running a WOT switch so I didn't have any Initial WOT enrichment). WIthout that switch, it goes SUPER lean, which probably doesn't help digi-lag any. 








Bump up that table, I added about 6-7 to all the values, and it helped a LOT.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

I feel bad that you have an SL1 B4S


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Nah, it's been super reliable for 6 years now. I love that car







.


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

your setup looks really nice







. Looks like it has been a long time coming.
So far, how does it feel compared to the old G-Lader?
How much difference is there in the available space in front of the motor on a B4 vs. a corrado?
I've gotta get me a donor awd setup for my corrado before they all go away







.


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

thanks for replying !
For boosted engine it seems that is harder to set ! 
I'v tryed but ...
Gotta focus correctly and do some more testing


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## starrd (Dec 30, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_
How much difference is there in the available space in front of the motor on a B4 vs. a corrado?


B4??? - he has a syncro Golf


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_your setup looks really nice







. 
*Thank you ! It's stainless steel.*
Looks like it has been a long time coming.
*It took a whole month (built and ajusted at night, weld the next day and so on, we're not pro but only fans) *
So far, how does it feel compared to the old G-Lader?
*Mid RPM is torquy (at 1.3k i have the same pressure of my G a 6k and at about 3.5k got around 20psi)
But digilag is realy anoying






















In my last Wot tunes I got open loop sooner but this is not enough i guess ! 
For high rpms there to much boost Gotta try to regulate it with the boost controller and i hope ISV flow will be enough (I got 1.8bars with one way valve on isv














)
I've tried some afrs : better was 12.6:1 for instance gotta replace my egt an retune the ignition for better torque avoiding knock ! 
And gotta adjust the Camshaft also !!! (How much does it change power ? powerband ?) *
*But seeing the amoun of flow I expect good drivability and performances !!
Without comparing to 8vT or 16vT, my target is good street use !*
How much difference is there in the available space in front of the motor on a B4 vs. a corrado?
*here are some more picts :*
















I've gotta get me a donor awd setup for my corrado before they all go away








*Yup syncro body with "haldexed" would be awsome if sourcing syncro part is problem... But can be expensive swap...*


But digilag kills highly boosted cars ...











_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 3:34 PM 12-30-2009_


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

So just delete the digilag with some chip tuning stuff from moates and an innovate lm-1 or lm-2... Easy peasy


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *potatonet* »_So just delete the digilag with some chip tuning stuff from moates and an innovate lm-1 or lm-2... Easy peasy

Hi, 
Not so easy but we'll try to do our best ! 
From 3.5k Boost is raising from vaccum to 20psi ! ECU is a lillte "over boosted"















You'll se my friend !


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Hi to all and happy new year !! 
Here are the results after my last modifications (4th gear, cluster temp=-3°C, mean IAT = 10°C): 

I've stopped before 6k because of my lack of fuel flow ...
Target AFR for 6k will be 11.8 and so on ... (as soon as fuel flow probleme will be deleted !!







)
But i think I'm gona add a litte more fuel for these fields ... 
Sugestions are welcome !
Regards 



_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 4:34 PM 1-6-2010_


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## starrd (Dec 30, 2001)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif looking good


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (starrd)*

Thanks.








It look almost the same for every shot I'made yesterday before it snows to much !! 
But I think I should try to richen a little bit more by applying a little offset ....



_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 10:56 PM 1-6-2010_


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

nice mapping!
we should all be so lucky


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*

Thanks !! 
Your gona you'll be able to do so went when you'll get your hardwares ...


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Got some news here !!
I've upgraded my FPR to 4bars


After some "offset style slight" tuning I've got this ! 

Still leaning out at 4.7K !! 
I'm gona check all voltages (As a good friend of mine suggested me !)
Now, I realy think the fuel pump runs out of flow (as jwatts said before) !!!


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## FLATBLACKMK2 (Oct 10, 2003)

*Re: Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (Rocco R16V)*

watched... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (FLATBLACKMK2)*

Thanks !!
I'll ad some update tomorow ...


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Best target AFR for supercharged 1.8L 8V (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

New 3mm EGT added ...





380 degC @ idle 
600 degC @ WOT 5k RPM for instance... Still have my OEM fuel lil'pump...
Do you guy's have experience un EGT tuning ? 
How much do you have for your boosted (*non turbo*) engines :
@idle ? 
@stabilized full load (high RPMs) ?
Next step will be fuel pump voltage checking and replacement...
I'll add some data logs soon ...










_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 6:59 AM 1-22-2010_


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

You are definitely out of injector. The rich dip before the steady rise in a/f shows them going static. Get som big'uns in there.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

Thanks for the tip


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_You are definitely out of injector. The rich dip before the steady rise in a/f shows them going static. Get som big'uns in there.

Thanks Jwatts ! This is logical ! 
I've set the rich dip to see when it is starting to lean out ...








Dont you think it can be the stoch pump ? 
I heard the stock rallye pump is capable of 250HP ...








Is it right ? if yes, should be ok for the pump ... 
This is what I have : 
0280 150 737 304cc/min or 29lb/min @3b 
and now I have 4b ...







and stil not enough















How much should I take for my upgrade ? 
(to choose new injector flow rate lets take into account that I'm gona build an ABF 16VM90 with bigger cams and stuff for next project... and upgrade it as much as I can !!!) 
More than 40lb, 60lb, more ... 
Thanks a lot


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

42# would be plenty for an 8V. 60# would be plenty for a 16V...
42# are about the limit of closed loop operation for an 8V, so far. I'm sure we could work on larger injectors to get things in order for closed loop with you, though.
60# siemens deka injectors with a 2.5bar fpr would cover all your bases pretty well. You should run out of pump before you run out of injector







.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

ok, so I have a target to beat...
supply enough air to max out a 42 lb injector to my ported large valve 8v motor and I will beat the norm...
will try to max out my 36 lbers first... -.- I must find more porting!!!!
headers would be a good idea right about now...


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (jwatts)*

Thanks for answering... this is nice !

_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_42# would be plenty for an 8V. 60# would be plenty for a 16V...
*This is experience !!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







*
42# are about the limit of closed loop operation for an 8V, so far. I'm sure we could work on larger injectors to get things in order for closed loop with you, though.
60# siemens deka injectors with a 2.5bar fpr would cover all your bases pretty well. You should run out of pump before you run out of injector







.

I carfully took a look to these injectors Deka, I'like it ...
What I'm gonna do is find some cheaper 42# bosch ones (and do ultrasound cleaning) so I can't resell them when upgrading for next engine








This way we should limit closed loop problems and avoid low injection pressure...
I'll get back to a 3b FPR if needed ...








I hate working on counter flow engines that sucks ...















Should be good








I beleive that is the easiest way to procced... 
I'm also thinking about upgrading the OEM pump for better security margin...
Any other good suggestions ? 
BTW I have another question Jwatts : How do yo u proceed for knock monitoring ?? SthÃ©toscope or konck electronic module, ... ? 
Thanks again










_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 3:08 AM 1-26-2010_


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *potatonet* »_ok, so I have a target to beat...
supply enough air to max out a 42 lb injector to my ported large valve 8v motor and I will beat the norm...
will try to max out my 36 lbers first... -.- I must find more porting!!!!
headers would be a good idea right about now...

What about more boost ?















Yes, we always need targets to acheive something ...
BTW have you got a link to your work ? or a thread going here ?








Good luck !


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

I'll keep you guys updated ...
Thank for participating ... I appreciate it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

42# Bosch will be fine, then







.
An upgrade to the fuel pump is never a bad idea
We used an external knock box a while back on one of the 16VG60 setups here in Atlanta. It made for a bit of tweaking above 6000 rpm and let us get that motor to the 250whp level at 7000rpm. Under most circumstances, I usually tune with low timing until the power comes on and the stuttering stops







. I try to be on the conservative side of the maps to keep blow ups to a minimum.

_Quote, originally posted by *M90SyncroRallyeGolf* »_I carfully took a look to these injectors Deka, I'like it ...
What I'm gonna do is find some cheaper 42# bosch ...
I'm also thinking about upgrading the OEM pump for better security margin...
Any other good suggestions ? 
BTW I have another question Jwatts : How do yo u proceed for knock monitoring ?? SthÃ©toscope or konck electronic module, ... ?


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (jwatts)*

Was that a 1.8l nonported 16vg60?


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M90SyncroRallyeGolf* »_
What about more boost ?















Yes, we always need targets to acheive something ...
BTW have you got a link to your work ? or a thread going here ?








Good luck ! 

I like to stick with a max of 17 psi, porting is required to flow more air and you know the rest.
Goals are just another thing to look forward to achieving, my work is on here somewhere... It's mixed in with another guys rebuild as we did the same thing at the same time... 2l aba g60's with counterflow heads. Should have gone with a 20v head but $$$ was an issue then and my motor was blown. I love the simplicity of my head though... Sweet lemons


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: (potatonet)*

rpm intake with Autotech cams and a 9A head that was cleaned up a bit... maybe supertech valves IIRC. 68mm pulley on a stock G-Lader with a rather large FMIC. Peak boost was around 10psi and power peaked at the rev limit (7200 rpm).


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_42# Bosch will be fine, then







.
An upgrade to the fuel pump is never a bad idea
We used an external knock box a while back on one of the 16VG60 setups here in Atlanta. 
*Is it top secret or you can give us some details ?







*
It made for a bit of tweaking above 6000 rpm and let us get that motor to the 250whp level at 7000rpm. Under most circumstances, I usually tune with low timing until the power comes on and the stuttering stops







. 
*You mean that you run low timing at first tunes then when you've reached your target AFR, you start to tune up timing ? (conservative way) *
I try to be on the conservative side of the maps to keep blow ups to a minimum.
*I'm gona have to be carefull as you suggested before ... I'll maybe add sme more fuel after final tuning and reduce timing a little to get some security margin...







*


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Some updates :
Found some [email protected] (45.7lb/hr) injectors like these ones referenced as : 
_LUCAS D3184GB or Nippon Denso MJY100460_
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROVER-48...b41a2
http://www.eter-mot.info/?1707...00460
It looks like they have the same shape as our bosch injector...








What do you guys think about that ?


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Well !!
I've ordered them, their good stuff...
I found a leak in the exhaust mainfold








I'll have to fix this until I get my big injectors... 
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## yip (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Sure it isn't your downpipe that's not leaking? I had two downpipes crack at the flex joint over the years. 
Anyways, if it's your downpipe I have 2 for sale. 1 stock and 1 TT.


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (yip)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yip* »_Sure it isn't your downpipe that's not leaking? I had two downpipes crack at the flex joint over the years. 
Anyways, if it's your downpipe I have 2 for sale. 1 stock and 1 TT.








Thanks for the offer but, I found out that the mainfold was already cracked and badly rewelded...








I've not removed it entirely for instance ...I'll check it out later... Hopefully there is no other damage











_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 1:06 PM 2-1-2010_


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## yip (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Oooh... that's no good : ( 
I also have a manifold for sale for $35 + shipping if you need one.


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (yip)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yip* »_Oooh... that's no good : ( 
I also have a manifold for sale for $35 + shipping if you need one.


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ohhh nice thank you. 
Are you sure that yours is crack free ? 
Is it a G60 syncro one or simple syncro one ? 
I lets you know if needed for instance we're gona try to weld it the corect way...


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## starrd (Dec 30, 2001)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

I checked in etka and the standard Corrado Manifold is not the same part number
I believe the correct part number is 037 253 031 AD
Listed as:
1986-1991 Golf/Var.-syn./Rall/Count
1988-1991 Jetta/syncro
1990-1993 Passat syncro


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (starrd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *starrd* »_I checked in etka and the standard Corrado Manifold is not the same part number
I believe the correct part number is 037 253 031 AD
Listed as:
1986-1991 Golf/Var.-syn./Rall/Count
1988-1991 Jetta/syncro
1990-1993 Passat syncro 

Many thanks !!!








We're gona reweld it by folowing this process : 
1. Grinding the cracks.
2. Heating the mainfold to needed temp to weld it. 
3. Filling the cracks. (welding) 
4. cooling it down in an oven a couple of hours to avoid new other cracks while cooling down.
I'll keep you guys updated








Thanks again


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

If you've got a BBQ, heat it up and do the welding on there. Then turn off the heat and close the cover to let it cool down. That's what we do at the shop when we have to weld cast iron







.


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

LoL 
Funny way to proceed much but better than nothing !!!

Is it getting strong enough at the end ?


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

Let me go back into my welding theory notes from when I did my MS and see if I can't find that process


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M90SyncroRallyeGolf* »_LoL 
Funny way to proceed much but better than nothing !!!

Is it getting strong enough at the end ? 



No cracking so far







. We did this to a customer's turbo (exhaust housing was converted to V-Band), and after two years, it's still in great shape.


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

Here are some news :
































Too much depth for this 3mm K type EGT
















































































































I'm able to see light throught the crack and that why it was so loud !!
I found out a good methode to dignose this kind of failure ... Need ti take another picture, so we'll se next time ...


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

yeah, im gonna say that weldings not exactly gonna work on that one...
also wtf happened to ure EGT sensor?


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*

Yes, this welding was done by the former owner http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
We'll be doing this with a pro , hopefully it will be better !
I think that I should have kept the EGT a little back !!
BTW the mainfold is not adapted for this application...



_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 1:38 AM 2-3-2010_


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Bad news : 

 





To be continued .....


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Cast iron can be really tough to fix. If you don't preheat it and weld with a TIG using high nickel rod, the cracks will just keep coming. The previous repair job might have ruined your chances to fix it, no matter what you try.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

Just go buy a new one... 
Eek good luck with that


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*

Thanks guys !!
What do you think about that ? 
http://cgi.ebay.de/Faecherkrue...614b0
Thanks


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## starrd (Dec 30, 2001)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

I would find out what type and thickness of stainless they used and if they back-purged the pipe when it was welded. If not, might also have issues with cracking in the future. Back-purging keeps a flow of an inert gas on the inside of the pipe while welding.


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (starrd)*

I think it's a raceland....
Your right gotta check it out !!


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Well..
I've contacted raceland for the manifold but it seems that they don't have it....
Here are my questions : 
_-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Headers for syncro Rallye golf
From: "Customer Service" <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, February 08, 2010 1:57 am
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Name=M90 Syncro
Phone=xxxxxx
[email protected]
Subject=Headers for syncro Rallye golf 
Hi, I heard that raceland have G60 syncro Rallye golf headers. So I would like to have some information about this mainfold. I would like to know what type and thickness of stainless do you use and if you back-purged the pipe when it is welded. (Back-purging keeps a flow of an inert gas on the inside of the pipe while welding.) My engine is heavly modified so I need realability. How much is it? Thank you very much. 
Best regards_
The answer :
_Thank you for your interest in Raceland products.

Please go to our website at http://www.racelandus.com, and look at the headers. Everything we have in stock is listed. If it is not listed we do not have it. available to sell.
Thank you,

Raceland USA
_ 

They don't have it... so...


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Here are some upgrades while trying to solve my problems ...
[email protected] 








Short shifter
Before : 








After : 








I'm gona upgrade my engine mounts as well...


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

You're just rescaling the main fuel map for the larger injectors?


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_You're just rescaling the main fuel map for the larger injectors?

I'll rescale the main and sustained MAP to begin with...
I need better delta-map enrichement and Wot initial enrichement with the pressures I've got







so I'll leave these for instance ...
I'm gonna have a lot of tuning to do ...
Don't you think ? 
I'll maybe have problem for idle !!!!










_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 12:23 PM 2-10-2010_


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Cool, interesting to see what happens







.
I'll be experimenting soon too...passat syncro G60 wagon on the way.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

u sonofabitch....
my dream donor system for my corrado


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_Cool, interesting to see what happens







.
I'll be experimenting soon too...passat syncro G60 wagon on the way.

Nice car !!! Congratz !









_Quote, originally posted by *potatonet* »_u sonofabitch....
my dream donor system for my corrado

Wanna syncro the rado ?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (potatonet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *potatonet* »_u sonofabitch....
my dream donor system for my corrado

It fell into my lap, I couldn't turn it away







. If I had a MkII, I'd be plotting the stripdown...but it's a lot more work to put it in my Rabbit. That means it gets to stay in one piece for me to use as a daily driver...which is probably the better option anwyay







.


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

Who doesn't want a syncro corrado, I drove a rallye golf and I was hooked


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*

Great handeling and stiffness but dangerous syncro unlocking ...


----------



## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Here are some upgrades








Here's the short shift installed with a better shift Knob (better handeling, smaller heavier...) : 








Much shorter now















My Rebuilt and upgraded adjustable timing pulley :








My new header :






























Ajustment to avoid recovering with plenum :
























Alignement is ok :









Enough room here :

























































I intend to place the EGT probe on the red spot : (hotter cylinders or any other advices ?) 

















Still enough room here : 
























I'm still waiting for stiffer front and rear engine and exhaust monts (Thanks for the advices







) and moreover two flexible are gona be weld here : 
















To be continued ...


_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 12:37 AM 3-1-2010_


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Where did you get that header!


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_Where did you get that header!









I got mine from here : http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAP...:1123
And if your planing to stay with the 8V you ca get a better one here : http://www.g-werks.com/Site/De...austs
But way to expensive to be modified for next project...
Mine needed some adjustments to fit correctly








It will do the trick !!!


















_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 4:39 AM 3-1-2010_


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Well here we are !! 
Some new part to bolt up !!
New engine stiffer mounts :






























Header mods :























Wrapped header :









































































































Pipe prototyping (needed to be bent because of new higer engine mounts and driveshaft clearance):




























































The new outport dia is 2.5".
To be continued ...










_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 5:51 PM 3-23-2010_


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## starrd (Dec 30, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Very nice!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
That old rear motor mount definitely was getting old and saggy! So, do I see two O2 sensor bungs? Front one for stock O2 in the header cross pipe and added rear one for wideband? 
Those long hours will pay off soon! Then back to tuning!


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

Cylinder 4 is hottest, but that's only based on the stock g60 manifold


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (potatonet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *starrd* »_Very nice!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
That old rear motor mount definitely was getting old and saggy! So, do I see two O2 sensor bungs? Front one for stock O2 in the header cross pipe and added rear one for wideband? 
Those long hours will pay off soon! Then back to tuning!









Thanks a lot !!








We were amazed by this 20 years old mount...








Yes you're right the rear one is for the WB OXS







(same place as before ...) 
I really Hope that will pay off dear starrd, for me and my helpfull friends ....
I hope that lil' bent will not crash exhaust flow capacity...








But should be ok after some investigations...









_Quote, originally posted by *potatonet* »_Cylinder 4 is hottest, but that's only based on the stock g60 manifold 

Yes that's what i heard... by the logical way should be the cylinders between 1 and 4 ...







but it's not a big deal we don't need it to be as accurate as OXS info ...
All this stuff because of one cracked manifold










_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 1:24 AM 3-24-2010_


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## jwatts (Mar 11, 2001)

Pipes look awesome!


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (jwatts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jwatts* »_Pipes look awesome!

Thanks


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

Bump ! Some updates !
We've finaly bolted everyhing together with an 63 to 45 quick adaptor..
















And custom tools cause not enough room for regular tools under the header







: 








And guess what ??








Very, very bad idle ... Not even idling http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Because 480cc pushed to 4bars leads us to 554cc wich is way to much ... for a "standard" 1.8L 8v... without any map mods...
And a lot of toxic smoke because of this exhaust tape...























So I went back to [email protected] and got to little better situation... But still not enough for idle...








To finish we roughly took the car out a late night for a rapid tune up session








And by removing a lot a fuel from differents maps, I've managed getting closed loop at (!steady!) idling & smooth cruising and a quiet good driveability...







Thank god !!!








Hot starts are ok ... and will need to correct cold starts a bit better !!







(but I still need to Open Throttle to bring a good amount of air for some TDC) 
No WOT for instance...








Some other modifications have to be done before putting efforts in fine tunning... But Hopefully soon !!!









The short shift and the new engine mounts are awesome !!
Half way between confort and racing !!








Any advices are welcome guys !











_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 8:11 AM 4-1-2010_


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

SWEET!








You'll have to share with me which maps you've adjusted, pretty please







.
Congrats man!


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

Getting a Donor car to smog the car so I can finally get my mods back...








I want mein boosten


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*


_Quote, originally posted by *B4S* »_SWEET!








You'll have to share with me which maps you've adjusted, pretty please







.
Congrats man!

For sure : 
For Idle it's the main fuel map in the concerned fields (0-1000)rpm x (0-100)kpa cause I geting boost easily at part throttle








For cold start I mouved randomly some enrichment maps and choke ... but not sure a the moment... I needed the car to be driveable ... so far it is now ... 
I've reduce delta map a bit to avoid spraying to much... Now I'm getting correct enrichement and smooth return to 14.7:1.
Wich, I think is good for part load torque feelings... 
But I said RANDOMLY ! This is not better way since I don't have all the needed info and knowlege...
This is all based on assumptions because I was in a hurry...
This work will need much more investigtion to get in the Original start and idle conditions...








But still exiting.. to learn a bit more of you're own car every day









_Quote, originally posted by *potatonet* »_Getting a Donor car to smog the car so I can finally get my mods back...








I want mein boosten

You're swapping the whole engine from the donor ? 
Send me some picts of your Joy toy please !!!








PM me your threads... 











_Modified by M90SyncroRallyeGolf at 2:36 AM 4-2-2010_


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (M90SyncroRallyeGolf)*

The 2,5" exhaust parts are ordered and now we can proceed to new modifications... like oil cooler and other minor changes... 
And I'll get back to tuning in some weeks hopefully...


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## potatonet (Apr 11, 2004)

no motor swap, just accessories swap


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

WoW ! my little thread is back ! Thanks BTW ! 

I'll update ASAP ! 

Lots of stuff ...


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Well, 

Starting from April we had to order parts to built all the remaining pipes...

I decided to order from www.turbozentrum.de for a decent amount of euros... 

Ordered on April 4th I had no new until 28th (when I started to mess with them on paypal...) 

Then on 29th I reveived this Email : 










Something like : *Close immediately the Paypal case or we will ship nothing!*

I directly called paypal and forwarded this evidence... 

Within 4 hours the problem was closed and I fortunately got my money back .... BUT NO PARTS TO BUILD MY EXHAUST .... (We've lost 1 month...)

But thanks to www.pipewerx.com I got everything rapidly ... :laugh:

Here we've started real work !!! opcorn:


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

SuperSprint 45mm :









The part for the one we've built, 64mm: 

















opcorn:


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## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Then :


----------



## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

and then :


----------



## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

After some fitting under the car : 










After some tip mods : 





We made it all fully adjsutable ....


----------



## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Then after a 3 hours ride...

Stupid urethane exhaust hangers :









Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and stupid VW melting plastic parts ...









Then we ended up to this : 

Chain exhaust hanger : 









Rebuilt with aftermarket hight temp resist rubber and exhaust wrap to prevent from heating ...
















:laugh:


----------



## M90SyncroRallyeGolf (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh we must not forget this : 






























































and a few other cooling new parts ...

Now I'm doing some camshaft adjsutment ... I'll make more updates when I'll finish it up... 

To be continued... opcorn:

Thank you


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## ridindeuces (Apr 30, 2007)

word I like this whats going on here :thumbup:


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## wed3k (Feb 22, 2010)

ditched that oem crappy snout coupler, lol


----------

