# DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap



## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

****EDIT**** Just for safety's sake and total cost of doing the swap,all must keep in mind that the front tie rod ends will be closer to the tires and this may limit how wide a tire can be used in the front.This can be easily remedied by using wheel spacers.****EDIT****

Any interests? I can show you guys how to do it on the cheap.







Ok,so i see some interest and im really tired of working on my coupe. 
First off,id like to thank and give credit to A_CQ on motorgeek as i am just regurgitating what im going to post up today.
I see a few people trying to fit mustang/focus/other stuff,trying hard to work with the 4X108mm bolt pattern. There are hubs from the Euro S2 that can be had for $1000 plus tax and shipping from 034motorsport. You can also try to source the S2 hubs from Europe,but the shipping and exchange rate is going to be also costly.
This hub swap is going to be specifically used to swap 5X112mm hubs into a B3 coupe quattro and the B3 quattro 20V sedan. Also,please keep in mind that this swap will work with the 2 piece strut/hub assembly,so check your car to see if the strut housing unbolts from the hub assembly,if its a one piece,it may not work. If it does,read on.
Here is a parts list of the new replacement parts you will need:
4 new bearings,one for each corner,stock replacements.
4 new axle bolts,but they are sometimes included in the bearing kits.
2 Ur S4 hubs model years 1993-1996,can be found rather easily at a bone yard,cost $50 id say.
2 REAR B5 1.8T quattro hubs,boneyard,$50 id say.
As an option,you may also want to upgrade your rear brakes as im sure your 20 year old calipers are crusty. I sourced out B5 S4 rear calipers,carriers and rotors. They just bolted right up,but i did have to make custom brake lines and slightly modify the E-brake cables. Other rear caliper options that can be used are MK4 golf jetta and B5 A4,which are still a solid rear disc,easier to find,cheaper to replace but some shimming of the carrier may be involved. Your choice to experiment.
So,anyways,back to the hubs,the Ur S4 hubs need to be machined,here is a pic of exactly where the machining needs to be done. See the shiny part? Go into any machine shop and ask them to machine 5mm off the hub,it cost me $30. The Ur S4 hubs will be used in the front your car and the B5 1.8T hubs will go to the rear. The rears dont need any machining,they just press on.
Lastly,the Ur S4 hubs do have a slightly different offset,so when you go to bolt up your G60's,the carrier will hit the rotor. Easy fix,get some washers and back space the carriers so that there will be equal distance from from the carrier to the rotor face. I think i used two 2mm washers on each carrier bolt. Oh,of course you are also going to have to drill out a 5X112 bolt pattern on your front rotors,i just used a drill. The rotor is hub-centric so no perfection is needed there. If you dont like your G60's,i think they are way too heavy and ugly,now whould also be a good time to read the big brake DIY on here to move on up to big reds. This would save you the drilling part,as you would need to buy A8 front rotors which already have a 5X112 bolt pattern.









_Modified by littlegreek at 12:25 PM 5-24-2009_

_Modified by littlegreek at 12:29 PM 5-24-2009_

_Modified by littlegreek at 7:21 PM 5-26-2009_


_Modified by littlegreek at 4:01 PM 6-23-2009_


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## boki-san (Jun 14, 2003)

*Re: DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap (littlegreek)*

flow, ... kick down, bro.


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## Nash20thAE (Aug 12, 2003)

Nice bit of info. I seriously considered this swap to my coupe, mainly because the idea of sharing wheels with my E430 and B6 S4 was appealing.
However, speaking from an appearance point of view, since the 4x108 bolt pattern isn't as widespread, there isn't alot of "competition" for wheels with that bolt pattern, and shoes can often be had at a lower cost. Just playing the devil's advocate.


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## audi90v6 (Nov 26, 2007)

*Re: (Nash20thAE)*

awesome!!! I guess I'm gonna have to go hunting for some parts now







how long did it take you to install?


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (audi90v6)*

Honestly,im not even done yet,ive done the rears and front left. I also replaced all the flange seals,serviced the propshaft,replaced the hanger bearing assembly,U-joint,seviced all the C/V joints,went with B5/TT vented rear brakes,deleted abs,replaced backing spates,ball joints,tie rods,control arm bushes,painted the front wheel wells,etc,etc.
I'd say to do the hub swap,3 hours per hub,especially if the car is rusty like mine.


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## audi90v6 (Nov 26, 2007)

damn..... well it makes sense doing all the extra work when your already down there. post up some pics when your all done... gotta see this setup FOR SUUURRRE


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## 88quattro (Jul 1, 2005)

id love to see this car in person since i am in the area im debating about doing the 5 bolt due to big brakes i will need them


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (88quattro)*

I'd like to get the car turn key and then have no problems to show it to you. In the meantime ill be running with 16's until a can afford the rims i want. Im also keeping the G60's on until i find some big reds,recession is kicking my financial ass.
Can i get some votes to get this in the DIY section stickied???


_Modified by littlegreek at 4:05 PM 6-23-2009_


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (littlegreek)*

There is a way to submit it to the moderators, to get it added to the FAQ section. But mayber a picture of the UrS4 hub and stock CQ hub together would show more of what is needed for machining.
Greg W.


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## 88quattro (Jul 1, 2005)

*Re: (littlegreek)*

but id like to see whats involved in doing the 5 bolt im sure its more than just hubs and rotors


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

*Re: (88quattro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *88quattro* »_but id like to see whats involved in doing the 5 bolt im sure its more than just hubs and rotors

um, wheels too? What else would there be? 
I have heard that there is a way to avoid machining and S2 hubs.


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## 88quattro (Jul 1, 2005)

well ofcoarse theyre would be wheels 
then what would the offsets be etc ?? u know what i mean id like a sneek peak


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## slayer00 (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: (88quattro)*

Are 100 hubs the same as s4 ones?


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (slayer00)*

Splines on driveshaft dont match up,so nope. Find an UrS4.


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## OptimusGlen (Feb 14, 2002)

*Re: (littlegreek)*

How often do people re-drill 4x108 hubs to 4x100? Seems like 4x100 has the greatest amount of wheel choice out there.

Like this


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## ebtastic (Sep 11, 2003)

*Re: (OptimusGlen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OptimusGlen* »_How often do people re-drill 4x108 hubs to 4x100? Seems like 4x100 has the greatest amount of wheel choice out there.

Like this









I think because more lugs is more strength. Wheel choice wouldnt be the first reason I'd do this, but then you could run all the new audi OE wheels. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Interesting for sure. Nice work Littlegreek. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## slayer00 (Oct 31, 2006)

Im drilling my hubs to 4x100, its the easiest way and theres plenty of choice


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## OptimusGlen (Feb 14, 2002)

*Re: (slayer00)*

is there _really_ that much more strength for a 5 lug wheel? There are plenty of race cars running 4 lug wheels all day long without issues.
I suppose if you had zero access to a machine shop in your city, this might be a good option though. Or if you just HAD to run some OEM wheel...


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## GOLF MAN DAN (Dec 16, 2008)

*Re: (OptimusGlen)*

I don't believe that 5 lug has more strength. Racecars with the most power use 1 lug!


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

*Re: (GOLF MAN DAN)*

This is more about larger breaks and wider wheels.


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (slayer00)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slayer00* »_Im drilling my hubs to 4x100, its the easiest way and theres plenty of choice

There will be LITTLE choice as most 4x100mm wheels have a smaller center bore. Audi uses larger center bores so if you wanted to use older VW wheels you will be screwed. Maybe Honda wheels might fit but who wants that on an Audi? Then you are left with ''tuner'' style wheels,but then again,who wants that on an Audi.
Mcstiff is right,you get a nice OEM wheel selection with 5x112,even M-B C class cars come with 5X112. You also now can upgrade your brakes alot easier,no rotor drilling required.


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## OptimusGlen (Feb 14, 2002)

*Re: (littlegreek)*

there are a LOT of classy wheel choices with larger bores.


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (OptimusGlen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OptimusGlen* »_there are a LOT of classy wheel choices with larger bores.









Gotta love it when people come on here and bust up my thread with nothing to back it up. 
Anyways,here are some pics of some crusty wheels im rolling on,refinished by yours truly. Wrinkle painted and rolling staggered,205/55/16's in the front and 225/50/16's in the rear. 








































These came off a 1998 A4 i believe but now i could roll with just about any Audi wheel,OE or aftermarket,even the MK5 VW's have gone 5X112.


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## Mcstiff (Feb 1, 2002)

*Re: (littlegreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *littlegreek* »_...rolling staggered,205/55/16's in the front and 225/50/16's in the rear.

Hows the understeer? I would go 225F/205R a la RSR.


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (Mcstiff)*

After replacing just about every steering/suspension component possible,should really do an alignment so i cant say much about anything. What i can say is gassing it into and out of a 45* corner,the front tires will break away before the rears. Very predictable though,probably could use a bit more in the HP department though







recession!


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## Cheshire_Cat (Jan 12, 2002)

*Re: DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap (littlegreek)*

I'd heard that I can swap the 5 lug setup over from my 1990 V8. Do you have the ability to confirm/deny this?


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## Hybrid_Hatch (Oct 24, 2005)

*Re: DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap (Cheshire_Cat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cheshire_Cat* »_I'd heard that I can swap the 5 lug setup over from my 1990 V8. Do you have the ability to confirm/deny this?

Apparently the hubs are the same as the URS4 hubs, so it would be the same process, however you will need to figure out something else (not the v8 stuff) for the rear (a4q rear hubs)


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## Ironman80 (Oct 5, 2009)

*Re: DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap (littlegreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *littlegreek* »_
2 Ur S4 hubs model years 1993-1996


Can you tell please detail number?
(sorry for possible bad english, my language is russian)


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## Quattro90S6 (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap (littlegreek)*

I take it the UrS G60 rotors don't work? And this is ONLY with the UrS cars, like a 1995 A6's rear hubs won't work?


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap (Quattro90S6)*

Dont think so,bearing/splines are different=for hubs. Dunno what you are asking with regards to g60 rotors.


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: DIY:4X108 to 5X112 hub swap (littlegreek)*

Sheesh,was this not a good enuf DIY? Sent a message to mods to sticky it but nothing.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (littlegreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *littlegreek* »_rolling staggered,205/55/16's in the front and 225/50/16's in the rear. 

wouldn't staggerd wheels need to be wider in the rear than the front?

_Quote, originally posted by *littlegreek* »_These came off a 1998 A4 i believe but now i could roll with just about any Audi wheel,OE or aftermarket,even the MK5 VW's have gone 5X112.

if your feeling frisky you could also use wobble bolts then run any 5x114.3 wheels from or made for Japanese cars.


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (MFZERO)*



MFZERO said:


> wouldn't staggerd wheels need to be wider in the rear than the front?
> Yes,and thats how im rolling=wider in the rear. Skinnier up front but like i said 5-7mm spacers will clear the tie rod easily.


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## varia (Mar 21, 2009)

bump!
its excellent!!!
sent you a pm greek. ty


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (varia)*

Replied. Still pissed why this isnt in the DIY section. God damn mods must be anti-Greek around here! Maybe a bribe for souvlaki might work?


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## apavlov (Dec 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *littlegreek* »_Dont think so,bearing/splines are different=for hubs. Dunno what you are asking with regards to g60 rotors.


What he's asking is, why re-drill your stock 4x108 rotors for G60's when plenty of 5-lug cars had g60 brakes? Or is the rotor offset different?


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (apavlov)*

Yes,offset is different and coupe front rotors have their own offset. Regardless,why would you throw away your good rotors when it takes 15 minutes to drill a 5X112 bolt pattern into them? If you have access to a drill press,to mark and drill 5 holes should take 30 seconds per hole. Cast iron drills just like butter,by the way i drilled the holes with a cordless Dewalt hand drill.
Also something to take into consideration,G60's came on Volkswagen which have a smaller hub center holes,how would they be any easier to use?


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## Cheshire_Cat (Jan 12, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (littlegreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *littlegreek* »_Yes,offset is different and coupe front rotors have their own offset. Regardless,why would you throw away your good rotors when it takes 15 minutes to drill a 5X112 bolt pattern into them? If you have access to a drill press,to mark and drill 5 holes should take 30 seconds per hole. Cast iron drills just like butter,by the way i drilled the holes with a cordless Dewalt hand drill.
Also something to take into consideration,G60's came on Volkswagen which have a smaller hub center holes,how would they be any easier to use? 

What VW came with G60's? Not saying they didn't or anything, I just don't remember any VW's having them.


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Cheshire_Cat)*

Sorry,you are right,G60 brakes amongst Audi peeps are the 2 pots found in the 20V 90 and B4 90,VW peeps call Corrado VR6 front calipers G60's also.
Anyways,the the rotor offset in coupes are specific to coupes only and the rotors are a bit expensive and harder to come by. Either way,drill them or find a used set of Porsche calipers,A8 front rotors and RS2 carriers and call it a day.


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## Cheshire_Cat (Jan 12, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (littlegreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *littlegreek* »_ Sorry,you are right,G60 brakes amongst Audi peeps are the 2 pots found in the 20V 90 and B4 90,VW peeps call Corrado VR6 front calipers G60's also.
Anyways,the the rotor offset in coupes are specific to coupes only and the rotors are a bit expensive and harder to come by. Either way,drill them or find a used set of Porsche calipers,A8 front rotors and RS2 carriers and call it a day. 

Actually I think the confusion comes from people saying, "Corrado G60 brakes", when referring to the brakes found on the 4cyl G60 Corrados, rather than the VR6 (SLC) model. However, as far as I know, both Corrado models came with Girling 54's in front, but the G60's brakes are commonly used as VW upgrades, because it has a larger rotor (11.1") than the SLC.
Anyway, sorry to get off topic. I owned a Corrado for about 10 years.








Now, however, I have two '90 V8's and a '93 B4 90, so I'm thinking about scrapping one of the V8's and using its brakes to convert the 90 to 5-lug (and possibly drop the V8 in the engine bay at some point in the future).


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## varia (Mar 21, 2009)

****EDIT**** Just for safety's sake and total cost of doing the swap, all must keep in mind that the front tie rod ends will be closer to the tires and this may limit how wide a tire can be used in the front. This can be easily remedied by using wheel spacers.****

One more question, again








how wide the wheels/tires can be? 8" 8.5"?
cos i dont want to use spacer
thank you again!
chris


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (varia)*

This totally depends on the offset of the wheel and not the width. You can find 5X112 wheels in 100 different offsets as this bolt pattern is used by M-B,Chrysler,new VW's and others. So the more the wheel pokes out of the fender,the more room you will have to clear the tie rod and fit wider wheels/tires.


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## varia (Mar 21, 2009)

ahhh, sry, i forgot that. the new wheel offset is 35mm 



_Modified by varia at 8:57 AM 2/13/2010_


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (varia)*

The wheels ive got on the car are 16X7 with from what i remember are ET37,ive got 1/4 inch gap to from tire to tie rod. Using an 8 inch wheel with almost the same offset (35) will 100% touch the tie rod. Id get spacers and even then you might have to roll the front fenders to avoid scrubbage. The front wheel aches on these cars are small to begin with,dont forget,the B3 chassis came out in 1987ish and 15X7 wheels were huge for such a small car. 17's and 18's were a dream in 1987







Also,as cool as wide tires look,its the best way to slow a car down and lose fuel economy. I ran 18inch aristos on my 2000 Jetta and it felt like a fat man was in my trunk or like i lost one cylinder.


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## varia (Mar 21, 2009)

*Re: (littlegreek)*

i dont want to the an "XL" wheel. 18" looks decent, but i would use the same width with 17". i was thinking 225/40/18.
Any opinion?
18 
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels...Brand

17"
http://www.oewheelsllc.com/Aud....html
but it has 42mm offset but they have with 30mm offset
may be space is the only option


_Modified by varia at 11:17 PM 2/14/2010_


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## littlegreek (Nov 24, 2006)

*Re: (varia)*

If you are asking will these wheels fit without spacers? Again,no,not without spacers in the front. 034 has a wide body kit for the coupe and you can even fit 10 inch wheels with that set up. My 225's which you can see in the pictures are getting close to the rear quarters and are very close to the spring perches,the only way is to move the wheels outward and the only way to do that in the front will be to roll the fenders. Many tuner shops have fender rollers and rent them out or do the rolling for you,another thing to consider.


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## varia (Mar 21, 2009)

what do you think, how big spacer will need to put a 18" 7. width rim on it?
That fender rolling is nice idea, ill ask around.
Thank you


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## audipanzerwagen (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: (varia) You must remember one important thing....*

when undergoing this modification...upgrade your wheel bearings. They are going to be put under a lot of stress especially if they are old. I replaced my bearings when I went over to wider wheels and offsets.


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

I need to point out some minor discrepancies in this thread.. 
The hub bore size is the same for almost all VW and Audi, *57.1mm*...even back to my MK1..I can take the wheels off of it and they fit right onto the bores of my Audi's... 
The exception is an Audi with UFO front brakes..The hub is concave and the inside face of the OEM wheel is shaped to fit down into it, which centers it into the brake rotor(if you look at a ufo rotor you will notice no hubcentric lip sticking out of the center of it)..For this reason a lot of aftermarket wheels do not sit properly into the UFO hub, and a small spacer is required, or you must machine the inside face of the wheel to fit. 
Also, Corrado G60 and SLC rotors are exactly the same size, 11.1"..the difference is 4x100 vs 5x100, and the offset is deeper on the SLC due to the Plus Axle front suspension.. 
Great writeup littlegreek, I was reading about it on mg, glad to see that someone figured out a less expensive way to go 5x112 on these cars..


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

nuugen said:


> I need to point out some minor discrepancies in this thread..
> The hub bore size is the same for almost all VW and Audi, *57.1mm*....


 Sorry, but I believe this is incorrect. The wheel bore size for the VW is 57.1, but the *hub*bore size is approx. 65mm vs 68mm for the Audi. When I did the rear brake upgrade on my coupe, I had to have the Corrado and New Beetle rotors rebored to match the Audi hub. This can be found in FAQ, on this page. 

http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?1572831 

Wheels may fit on the hubs, but the rotors will not VW to Audi. 

Greg W.


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

Yes you are correct...I was talking about the center bore that the wheel sits on, sorry for the confusion..


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

No worries. Just trying to keep the Noobies, straight. 

Greg W.


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## scotty33 (Aug 12, 2005)

Great write up, i'm in UK so S2 stuff available but crazy prices... 

just thought I could add something: The coupe 20v has a 37mm offset (ET) as already mentioned, 

but the type 89 80/90 sedan has 45mm offset the 90 20v in particular has a very thick drive flange on the hub so it is likely the setup with this conversion would need to be different? 

some details pasted from a similar topic I posted on motorgeek - detailed reply from Bilzcat1:

There's a little mix up here since there is not only an early and late build revision with the B3 but also B4 parts which are similar but not identical to the late B3.

Early B3 sedan 8v/10v - stamped steel control arms, 2-bolt ball joints, and the least hub offset of any of the B3/B4 parts. We'll call this the baseline for hub offset.

Late B3 sedan 8v/10v - cast/forged control arms, 3-bolt ball joints, same hub offset as early.

Early B3 sedan 20v - same as early 10v, but with 5mm additional hub offset (this is entirely in the hub, nothing else)

Late B3 sedan 20v - same as late 10v, but again with 5mm additional hub offset.

Early Coupe - stamped steel control arms with a unique 3-bolt ball joint (sucky). 10mm additional hub offset

Late Coupe - cast/forged control arms with the same 3-bolt ball joints from the late build B3 sedans. 10mm additional offset built into the hub.

B4 - same as the late build Coupe, but with 11.25mm additional hub offset.

So bascially...control arms and ball joints go in sets - stamped with 2-bolts, stamped with 3 bolts, and cast/forged with 3 bolts. They are all interchangeable as sets. By far the least desireable are the stamped 3-bolt arms that come on the early B3 Coupes, simply because the ball joints are ridiculously expensive and 2 bolt vs 3 bolt ball joint is not a useful increase in strength. The weakest point of the control arm is where it meets the bushings (if not the bushings themselves).

Anyway, the basic rule is that as long as you aren't changing hub housings, it is all interchangeable between models. The rear suspension is the same for all B3s with the addition of small tabs on the struts for mounting sway bar end links on the late build models. 

thread here:

http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6550&hilit=wheel+and+bearing

Also worth mention is that 20v and v6 cars use 82mm wheel bearings, the 10v and 4 cyl models use 75mm wheelbearings. They would need to be changed during this swap so something to consider?


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## DieselLove (Dec 26, 2007)

Awesome write-up, literally just finished the swap and this thread among others helped answer a lot of questions. 

In addition, I wanted to inform all the rear hubs from a C4 A6 sedan will work for the front of your swap car. Same bearing size and spline size/count but do require the same machining as the V8Q and UrS4. Found these to be a good bit more common than the other options.


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## korben007 (Apr 21, 2010)

So you could use b5 s4 hubs I'm the rest as well since they r both 8d0 501 653b ya?


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## DieselLove (Dec 26, 2007)

korben007 said:


> So you could use b5 s4 hubs I'm the rest as well since they r both 8d0 501 653b ya?


You could likely use the rear hubs from a B5 S4 in the rear of a 80/90/coupe but not the fronts.


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