# Early GTI Oil



## DAVEG (Aug 14, 2001)

Is there a problem with the low viscosity oils for the early cars? I have an 84 GTI with about 170K and I have been using 5-30 NEO synthetic oil. I have had the oil light come on during idle after the engine is warm but not regularly. I have also raised the viscosity by adding some heavier NEO oil. The level is fine and the oil seems relatively clean.


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

The oil pumps wear. A new G-60 oil pump is the fix. For now, just use a thicker oil. ANY oil on the shelf is more than adequate for your vehicle, which specs obsolete SG or SH oil anyway. 

As you see in this chart, based on the later SJ and SL spec, modern oils far exceed their requirements. This is VERY much so with your engine. 





















MAxLife, GTX HM or if you really want synth, Mobil 1 makes a nice Hi-Miles oil, they also have a new dino/semi version of HM oil, Mobil Super HM, iirc. Their 10w-40s tend to be quite thick, so you may want to mix it w/5w or 10w-30 depending on how cold it gets there. You could use a 5w-40 synth if you want, not necessary, imo. 

Another VERY nice oil, off the top of my head, is Shell Rotella "T5" 10w-30 SemiSynth. Not expensive at all, a thick 30, good in cold, a HD diesel engine oil...is there really anything better? 











http://www.compactequip.com/index/s...rgizes-product-portfolio-for-evolving-engines 


"Shell Rotella T5 10W-30 Synthetic Blend Technology, which delivers better fuel economy than Shell Rotella T Triple Protection 15W-40 oil, expands the product line of the No. 1 brand of heavy duty engine oils. A new formulation of Shell Rotella T6 Full Synthetic offers improved viscosity protection, and Shell Rotella T Triple Protection, which features an enhanced engine wear claim, completes the simplified portfolio. 

Shell Rotella Energized Protection engine oils are formulated with adaptive technology to provide targeted protection across all driving conditions -- physically and chemically reacting to the ever-changing needs of an engine. Adaptive technology consists of molecules that when under load and temperature stresses form a protective layer on engine surfaces, which helps to keep moving parts separated, thus helping reduce wear. 

“Because Shell Rotella heavy-duty diesel engine oils provide protection in critical areas, engine life can potentially be extended and maintenance costs reduced,” said Dan Arcy, OEM technical manager for Shell Lubricants. “Shell Rotella T5 10W-30 and Shell Rotella T6 offer improved fuel efficiency and protect the performance of exhaust-emission control systems, and Shell Rotella T Triple Protection demonstrates the ability to provide added wear protection compared to previous formulations.” 

Forget fancy/expensive/imported oil in that engine, seriously.  

We get great oil dirt cheap in the USA.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*clearances*

more than wear on the oil pump, the bearings wear and the clearnaces increase, thus reduced oil preasure. this is especially apparent at low rpm. try a 10w-40, might help, might not. 

by the way those are really nice spider graphs audisport.


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

Dave: 
It's summer. It's entirely too warm for 5w30 in a MkI or MkII-era engine. And, the oil viscosity chart (can be found in your Bentley, or in your owner's manual (if you happen to have one), which has the same chart.) 

20w50 this time of year. 15w50 also works. There is no way in hell I'd try running 5w30 (regardless of quality) in Wilda _any_ time of year (not that I drive her in winter), much less in the summer. And, it's not because of mileage - she only has 107,000 miles on her. 
15w50 (Mobil 1) for her. 

Last VW ('87 Golf GT), much the same - 20w50 for the warmer months (say, April-October); 10w40 for the colder months (November-March.) And, never a peep from the oil-warning system (aside from the occasional pressure-switch failure. But, those just happen. It's a VW!) 

Change your oil, and put the right weight for your ambient temps in it. And, use a quality filter: Mann, Mahle, Bosch, Wix. Fram, 'budget', and 'house brand' filters tend to have incorrect bypass and/or drainback valves in them - causes more oil-pressure wonkiness than you'd think. 


I have to take issue with the previous two posters' thoughts on the matter. All due respect, guys, but.... it's not the mileage on the engine that's the issue. It's that VW engines of that era simply like, and require (even per VW!) higher-viscosity oil than do newer vehicles.


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

What do you mean by "require"? Sure, thicker makes more pressure, and a certain pressure is "required"....but. 

What is pressure anyway, it's resistance to flow. What lubricates and cools bearings, pressure or flow? It's flow. We don't have FLOW gauges for reasons of complexity, we have PRESSURE gauges, so that's what everyone references. 

10w-40 at 0f is horribly thick. It makes for poor starting, but also poor warm-up cycle, bogging down the engine for miles and miles....you CAN'T hammer it in cold, thick oil making it worse, add in a turbo....you get the idea. 

By my eye, there's a ton of overlap in this Porsche visc guide, and rightly so. 









Apparently, 15w-40 is fine down to teens F and 0w-20 and 0w-30 are good at ALL TEMPS. 

So, how is it that a low specific output engine, like the 112hp Rabbit needs thicker oil? Is there the extreme pressure from detonating diesel fuel, no. Are there extreme oil temps, that drive the visc down to where a thicker starting visc is needed, no. 


Thick oil is a dumb and as-old-as-the-hills notion. I'm sure you would run 15w-50 in a new Honda or Ford or TOYOTA all the other makes that use 0w-20, thinking you are saving the engine from grevious damage. Bottom line is it's as hard as a rock in cold, and offers no advantages in wear at all. 


Same for the irrational fear of otc oil filters. They all do the same thing....no, really.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*soup*



Super Hans said:


> What do you mean by "require"? Sure, thicker makes more pressure, and a certain pressure is "required"....but.
> 
> What is pressure anyway, it's resistance to flow. What lubricates and cools bearings, pressure or flow? It's flow. We don't have FLOW gauges for reasons of complexity, we have PRESSURE gauges, so that's what everyone references.
> 
> ...


 stay dry.


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

Hans: 
Do you have an A1 or A2 car? Have you ever? 

Look. I'm not trying to get into a pi$$ing match with you over this. Really, I'm not. But, I've owned a few of them, and I've learned what they like and don't like. 
And, they happen to like what their manufacturer recommends.  
They need the thicker oil simply because they need the thicker oil - it's how the engines were designed. 
Remember this: the VW 4cyl (as used in in the A1 and A2 platforms) was born in, what 1974? It was a different time. Things were done differently then! 

Would I run 15w50 in, say, a newer Honda? Hell no! That would be silly. Proof that I'm _not _silly: the '99 Civic that my Mom had (bought new), got 5w30, year-round (which Honda recommended for it) for most of its life (yes, I did all of the maintenance and repair on that car. And, FYI: I actually do this for a living (BMW tech.)) As it was approaching the 300,000 mile mark (IIRC, somewhere around 280k), it was getting tired, and wanted a little thicker. 10w30, and it was happy. 

You say "10w-40 at 0f is horribly thick. It makes for poor starting." Well, I ran that in my MkII Golf in the winter (and, did the same in my '84 'rocco, way back.) It may have cranked a _little_ slow at those temps (I'm right next to Detroit - 0*F does happen here!); but, it wasn't an issue starting it. Ever. 

My fear of certain brand oil filters is NOT irrational, nor unfounded. Many here (myself included, back in my Golf days - I learned!) have had nothing but issues with wierd, random oil-pressure warnings from running "less-than-spec" oil filters, that "magically" went away simply by changing the filter for (gasp!) the right one. 
A Fram PH2870A replaces way, way too many Mann part numbers (no, Fram, a VW Mk1/Mk2 4cyl oil filter is NOT the same as a BMW M20 oil filter!) 
And, frankly, it's a dumb argument. A Mann filter is _not_ expensive - AutohausAZ (example) sells them for $4.66. 

Bottom line is this: thicker oil is not "a dumb and as-old-as-the-hills notion." Rather, it's _manufacturer's spec for the vehicle_. And, it's a spec that actually keeps the engines happy.


----------



## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

gmikel said:


> more than wear on the oil pump, the bearings wear and the clearnaces increase, thus reduced oil preasure. this is especially apparent at low rpm. try a 10w-40, might help, might not.
> 
> by the way those are really nice spider graphs audisport.


 It's from Lubrizol's relative performance chart, which even Lubrizol has a disclaimer, which you shouldn't really use it as if it's engraved in stone.... which AudiJunkie aka audisporta4 aka Super Hans is clearly misusing.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*sarcastic*



BsickPassat said:


> It's from Lubrizol's relative performance chart, which even Lubrizol has a disclaimer, which you shouldn't really use it as if it's engraved in stone.... which AudiJunkie aka audisporta4 aka Super Hans is clearly misusing.


 it was a poor attempt at humor on my part.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*clearnaces soup*

specified oil has a lot to do with clearances designed into the motor. the new honda's and ford's that use 0w-20 are really tight and could potentially spin a bearing with 10w-40 on a cold morning. older engines were built to larger tolerances and wear just amplifies the need for a slightly heavier oil. forged piston as used on our vws also require larger clearances because of expansion. the manufactures build the engines, they have a pretty good idea what the require.


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

Yawn. 










"Happy engines", lol. 

I bet "sleeping better at night with a thick oil" is right up there on your list too.  


I really wasn't expecting a technical reply anyway, a giant list of hypothetical intangibles is just fine. :thumbup: 


So you've ruled out 5w-40 over 10w-40 in freezing cold? 










Hmm.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*you make less sense with each post*



Super Hans said:


> Yawn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

Hey, Hans? Since you seem to like posting charts.... Here's VW's oil-viscosity chart, as published in the Scirocco-Cabriolet, 1985-1993 Bentley.
(This is the same chart as would be found in the owner's manual for an '84 Rabbit/GTI, BTW):








Just look at that. When it's 80*F+ out, I shouldn't be running 5w30! And, 10w40 is good to -10*F! Amazingly, it actually agrees with my experience.... 
(as to the 'pressure vs. flow' statement: Yes, flow cools & lubricates. But, pressure is what keeps parts from touching.  )


To Dave:
I somehow feel the need to apologize for the silliness that this thread degenerated into.
How's the situation with the car?


----------



## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

*d*

don't worry super Hans has been bannEd multiple times

he's also banned from "bob is the oil guy" forum

these forums cannot handle his ultimate knowledge of a wannabe tribologist


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

You guys keep your 35 year old oil charts handy, that's a useful reference if you go back in time.

Too bad you can't even use 5w-40 in a VW, according to it. 0w-40? Forget about it. 

My engine specs 5w-40, but apparently does excellent on 5w-30. Next winter it's 0w-30. 

In the future, people will laugh at my chart just like I'm laughing at yours. :laugh:


----------



## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

your engine does not spec only 5w40. The requirement is an oil that meets VW502.00 -- but since you're an expert on 502.00, I don't need to say more.


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

cuppie said:


> When it's 80*F+ out, I shouldn't be running 5w30! And, 10w40 is good to -10*F! Amazingly, it actually agrees with my experience....



Oh my, let me get this right....

You want (or need) a thick 10w-40 for -10f? That's sofaking funny.

....and the 5w-30 SH from 30 years ago, that's exactly the same as 5w-30 sold now....right? lol.


So, your ideal situation would be to run 30 year old 10w-40....SH, maybe some Shell Fire & Ice? :facepalm:












YOU DA MAN!


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

Yeah, that engine would simply explode on Rotella T5 or T6. :screwy:


----------



## pipo (Oct 15, 1999)

*The Entertainment Capital of the Vortex!*

Without you, Super Hans, this forum would be nowhere near as informative - and entertaining! Although part of the information and entertainment comes from the responses you elicit from other posters... Healthy debate often brings out valuable knowledge. Keep on keeping on... :thumbup:


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*as with everything else*



pipo said:


> Without you, Super Hans, this forum would be nowhere near as informative - and entertaining! Although part of the information and entertainment comes from the responses you elicit from other posters... Healthy debate often brings out valuable knowledge. Keep on keeping on... :thumbup:


i believe, the manufacturers recommendations were stated. you and stupor hans feel that his recommendations are more relevant, HUH? give us a break.

we can all use whatever we choose, but under warranty, the manufacture is right until proven otherwise, unless audisquirt is providing warranty coverage with his recommendations.


----------



## pipo (Oct 15, 1999)

*Peace and Love*



gmikel said:


> i believe, the manufacturers recommendations were stated. you and stupor hans feel that his recommendations are more relevant, HUH? give us a break.
> 
> we can all use whatever we choose, but under warranty, the manufacture is right until proven otherwise, unless audisquirt is providing warranty coverage with his recommendations.


Not disagreeing with you, gmikel! In fact, I am sticking with a 502 oil, and the back and forth between SH, you and others has both provided us with a number of opinions and, in my case at least, inspired me to do some research of my own. Without your input, I would probably have blindly stuck with Castrol Syntec 5w40, which seems to be pretty universally dissed by those in the know. Instead, I went to Mobil 1 0w40, and may explore some of the other 502 oils going forward. AGIP is one interesting possibility.

And even though it's clear you don't agree with SH's positions on certain issues, you have to admit, he does know a lot about oil technology, as you do as well, and his provocative statements make for lively debate! :wave:


----------



## wellssd (Jun 2, 2008)

How about Motul Classic Motor Oil 20w-50 API:SF ???

Has anyone tried this stuff? around $20 for 2L. from matrixsyntheticoils:

"Motul Class Motor Oil 20W-50's anti-wear additives increases engine life, and its viscosity (20-W-50) at high temperatures is specifically formulated for high mileage engines which tend to be heavy on oil usage. Additionally, it leaves an oil film protection on the engine and its moving parts during extended lay-up periods. Motul Class Motor Oil 20W-50 also possesses anti-oxidation, anti-corrosion and anti-foam properties"
STANDARDS	API SF / CC
"Formulation according to car manufacturers specifications and taking advantage of recent technology evolution. Anti-wear additivation increases engines life time. The viscosity at high temperature (SAE 50) is totally adapted to high mileage engines which tend to be heavy on oil.
Leaves an oil film protection on engine moving parts during wintering periods. Anti-oxidation, Anti-corrosion, Anti-foam properties".

I am interested in using the Motul 20w-50 in my 16v for next summer. Might be good for your 84 GTI.
Especially being an SF oil, plus it has the added anti-wear additives. I was also looking at Lubromoly MoS2 Anti Friction 10w-40 for the winter Any Comments???


I am interested in this discussion of using newer synthetic Group III or IV/V oils like GC and other 502 oils in our older SF engines. I believe in the charts with the 15w or 20w-50 oils in the summer(hot regions), but curious about these 0w or 5w weight oils for the cold winters (-10* - 60*) compared to a 10w-30/40 according to the bentley and owners manual. I do agree our engines need the thicker oil, but how thin for the winter can we go with our SF (old school engines) especially using new age synthetic oils???

:beer::beer:


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

I think you should try 15w-40 in summer before you decide. It and 5w-40 synth like Rotella far exceeds the needs of an old engine. In fact HD oils are state of the art, speces are updated constantly, with VW 502 being updated once since 1998.  

See my posts about M1 High Miles if you want great oil at a great price. The 10w-40 HM is quite thick and should suit you well. The 10w-30 is thick too, but fine for winter.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*soup*



Super Hans said:


> I think you should try 15w-40 in summer before you decide. It and 5w-40 synth like Rotella far exceeds the needs of an old engine. In fact HD oils are state of the art, speces are updated constantly, with VW 502 being updated once since 1998.
> 
> See my posts about M1 High Miles if you want great oil at a great price. The 10w-40 HM is quite thick and should suit you well. The 10w-30 is thick too, but fine for winter.


you're a little thick


----------



## wellssd (Jun 2, 2008)

Sorry to keep hacking this thread,

So lets be clear, 
I just recently bought about a case of German Castrol(GC) 0w-30 at autozone for cheap like $6 qt.
Can I use this stuff in my 1990 Jetta GLI 2.0 16v for the winter. New England winter (-5*F - 60*F)

Even though its still winter, I am still concerned about the 0w weight oil in a old SF 2.0 16v engine. 

Cause it's either use it or sell it!!! It was supposed to be for my S/C VR6, but I hear they like 15w-50 cause of the S/C.


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

Sweet. 0w test is at -30f. It has no bearing on the visc at most temps. GC is a relatively thick oil at most temps.









By null at 2011-08-26


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*huh*



Super Hans said:


> Sweet. 0w test is at -30f. It has no bearing on the visc at most temps. GC is a relatively thick oil at most temps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the chart says celcius not ferinheit. i know i can't spell. guess you're a little thick @ room tep.


----------



## pipo (Oct 15, 1999)

Super Hans said:


> Sweet. 0w test is at -30f. It has no bearing on the visc at most temps. GC is a relatively thick oil at most temps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very informative chart. Is there an easy way to obtain comparative viscosity charts like this for other oils? How about a central repository of oil spec sheets? Or is it catch as catch can?


----------



## Super Hans (May 27, 2011)

Yes, Widman's graphing calc is interactive.

You need the +40c and +100c visc of the oil you want to plot, also you need to modify the temp range to be displayed. Have at it, and let me know if you have any questions...

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html


----------



## pipo (Oct 15, 1999)

Super Hans said:


> Yes, Widman's graphing calc is interactive.
> 
> You need the +40c and +100c visc of the oil you want to plot, also you need to modify the temp range to be displayed. Have at it, and let me know if you have any questions...
> 
> http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html


Thanks, I ran the charts on Mobil 1 0W-40 and Castrol Syntec 0W-30 that are very interesting. My conclusion is that M1 is the winner for cold winter driving, notwithstanding its higher 40/100 degree C viscosities. New thread on its way.


----------

