# Next Generation (2009 or 2010) Phaeton for US market?



## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

*Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 !*

Hi there,
there are several articles in german magazines like this one
http://www.wiwo.de/pswiwo/fn/w....html
saying that the current phaeton model will be back to the us-market already next year ! 
so you probably won't have to wait for phaeton II http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by thomas b. at 2:10 PM 10-8-2007_


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## Tampa (Sep 2, 2007)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (thomas b.)*

Interesting article Thomas. The rough, really rough, translation from "Google" German to English is;
"Not only the Phaeton successor, but already the current model is to be sold in the future in North America again, experienced the magazine from company circles. Therefore the Phaeton is already taken up in the coming year again to the model pallet of the US daughter.
Pischetsrieder had taken the Phaeton in the summer 2006 for lack of success of the US market and had annoyed thus above all Volkswagen supervisory board Ferdinand Piëch. It consider the step wrong, mentioned Piëch at that time. The model had been developed in Piëchs era as a Volkswagen chief executive. Winter grain had led the development.
In order to come in the second approach in the USA to a success, winter grain wants to introduce the car there also with new, particularly clean diesel engines. Those are from 2008 on available.
The date for the successor is further open against it. At present the company examines, which components can be inferred from a common component system, from which AUDI and VOLKSWAGEN are to avail themselves. Thus the Phaeton should be in the second generation profitable, which demands Volkswagen supervisory board and Porsche boss Wendelin Wiedeking beside winter grain also.
[06.10.2007] 
From the restaurant week 41/2007.
***
Opinion only;
Were it to be true, VW would be leading with their chin if they are thinking of leading a 2008 US re-introduction with a diesel Phaeton. Availability of nice clean gas stations that also pump diesel fuel are limited in the US & the well heeled US buyer will do anything to avoid a truck stop.
The car is almost perfect now. The better idea would be keep the platform the same, update the electronics to touch screen, DVD, maybe add a few cameras and monitors, I Phone integration etc., and most important, this time around, quietly market the car as a "Phaeton" and don't make the mistake of trumpeting large "VW" brand logos all other the vehical as though is were are a box of laundry detergent on a shelf at the grocery store. It would not hurt to create a north american 2008 Phaeton vehicle "shortage” as what really wealthy US buyers like most is what they can't have.







Anyone else with me on this or am I off target?


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## 98741 (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Tampa)*

"Winter grain had led the development."
Gin has some amazing powers I guess. You know, there is so much thought into the Phaeton, it's hard to believe it was all the result of a drinking game at VW....


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## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Tampa)*

I couldn't agree more with your opinions and points.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Tampa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tampa* »_ Availability of nice clean gas stations that also pump diesel fuel are limited in the US...

Good observation.
Canada has about three times as many diesel cars in service as America, on a percentage basis, and some of the smarter national fuel retailers have put a lot of effort into cleaning up the diesel pump. New service stations are being constructed such that it is not possible for heavy trucks to fill up at the 'automotive' diesel pump, and that has cut down a lot of the mess.
Despite this, no-one has yet started providing disposable plastic gloves at the diesel pump. This is the norm in Europe.
Michael


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## DrDivo (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (PanEuropean)*

I've been seeing disposable glove dispensers at the newly remodeled Valero stations here in the Houston market. An excellent point that it's a simple oversight that would make diesel more interesting.
Perhaps the first Papillion Silver Heliochrome Phaeton will sneak into the NAR....


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## NickM (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Good observation.
Canada has about three times as many diesel cars in service as America, on a percentage basis, and some of the smarter national fuel retailers have put a lot of effort into cleaning up the diesel pump. New service stations are being constructed such that it is not possible for heavy trucks to fill up at the 'automotive' diesel pump, and that has cut down a lot of the mess.
Despite this, no-one has yet started providing disposable plastic gloves at the diesel pump. This is the norm in Europe.
Michael

A few have started providing gloves in this area, but the boxes are empty more often than they are full







I do remember the dirty pumps I used to pull up to filling up my '91 Golf diesel in the early 90's....there's a world of difference in the cleanliness of the pumps now that I pull up in my '06 Jetta Diesel.
On the V10 TDI, its one awfully impressive engine...to be honest with you I think they may find aome success in placing themselves into the high end diesel niche, especially if fuel prices keep rising and manufactuers continue to position modern diesel as eco friendly...at least they'd differentiate the car from the 7/S/A8/LS via diesel power.
Do yourself a favour and drive a V10 Touareg...I'll bet that you'd soon be wishing for the V10 in your Phaeton.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (PanEuropean)*

I think that the proliferation of diesel models that are beginning to appear in the U.S. made possible by the (finally!) appearance of very low sulfur diesel fuel will spur stations in this country to provide diesel alongside of the gas pumps.
Honda's Accord model will offer a diesel in 2009 that is so well engineered that it will not require driver replenished urea injection. You're not going to get much more mainstream than an Accord diesel. Jeep already has one or two, and Mercedes has its Blutec. The diesels are coming and it's just what the 5200 lb. Phaeton could use. And VW has a long history with diesels. 
Phaeton II with a V8 diesel..., I can't wait. If equipped like the ROW model, it should have most of the shortcomings we all complain about taken care of. I just hope I can afford it! I'll bring my own gloves if I have to. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Steven 


_Modified by car_guy at 12:58 AM 10-9-2007_


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

wow, the google translation offers some real highligts: "Winterkorn = Winter Grain" *Lol* and "Wirtschaftswoche = Restaurant Week". actually "wirtschaft" has 2 meanings, "restaurant" and "economy".
i think diesel is a great solution, around 80 % of the phaeton over here are diesel (V6 and V10). i'd be very happy for you if the p. gets back soon to the US.


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (PanEuropean)*

Always check for diesel spills on the ground near the pump, otherwise you will be wiping it off your pedals and trying to get the smell out of your carpet http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
I need some plastic shoe covers









_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Despite this, no-one has yet started providing disposable plastic gloves at the diesel pump. This is the norm in Europe.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (DrDivo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DrDivo* »_Perhaps the first Papillion Silver Heliochrome Phaeton will sneak into the NAR....

They're already here.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (DrDivo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DrDivo* »_Perhaps the first Papillion Silver Heliochrome Phaeton will sneak into the NAR....

Thanks for posting that pic Chris. IIRC that car "belonged" to the Phaeton trainer based out of NYC. Damn gorgeous color in person. 
Now if you mean W12 Papillion Silver, I don't think there is one of those...or maybe a 4 seater, though I have seen a W12 Cario Beige 4-seater with and Individual interior floating around.
PC


_Modified by PhaetonChix at 2:22 PM 10-9-2007_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_Now if you mean W12 Papillion Silver, I don't think there is one of those...or maybe a 4 seater

There is a Papillon Silver W12 floating around in Denver somewhere, IIRC. I believe it has a Sonnenbeige interior.


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Tampa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tampa* »_Interesting article Thomas. The rough, really rough, translation from "Google" German to English is;


I found an english version of the same topic:
http://www.finanznachrichten.d...7.asp


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## Phat Cat (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (thomas b.)*

thomas b.:
Thanks...that's certainly easier to read if not as entertaining. Does anyone know if Mr. Winter Grain's reported decision has been confirmed?


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## mip1 again (Apr 9, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (adamkodish)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adamkodish* »_Always check for diesel spills on the ground near the pump, otherwise you will be wiping it off your pedals and trying to get the smell out of your carpet http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
I need some plastic shoe covers










You might get plastic gloves and paper towels here, but I can't think of anywhere else I could go where I spend a couple of grand a year and have to constantly make an effort to avoid getting dirty...


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (mip1 again)*

We need full-service petrol stations, but I cannot think of any in my area.

_Quote, originally posted by *mip1 again* »_
You might get plastic gloves and paper towels here, but I can't think of anywhere else I could go where I spend a couple of grand a year and have to constantly make an effort to avoid getting dirty...


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

We got plenty here in Scottsdale Arizona, maybe it has to do with sunshine!


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

I'm surprised anyone wants to go outside to pump gas in Scottsdale for a large part of the year ... or do have fully air-conditioned gas stations?
When I was a kid my Dad owned a full-service petrol station. I worked on the forecourt at weekends and during vacations. At that time there were mostly self-service stations. We had a canopy so the wet weather was not too bad.
I used to spill diesel on the floor filling up commercial vehicles and slide around in it aftewards. If Dad spotted it I'd have to go and clean it up. With a self-service station they're probably not looking out for this so the customer has to look out for it instead.
I undertstand the profit margins from selling fuel are pretty low, which is why most stations here are also grocery and coffee shops. I imagine it would cost too much money hiring some attendants to pump the gas at the UK minimum wage and customers won't pay extra, even though it would be a small extra percentage given the very high retail price of fuel in the UK.

_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_We got plenty here in Scottsdale Arizona, maybe it has to do with sunshine!


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Tampa)*

I might add my .02 worth by suggesting that if this is true then add this to the list:
1. Push button start
2. A slimmer & lighter in weight remote with longer range - see Infiniti M remote
3. The ability to order off the individual option list
4. A really specially lease offer to all former and current Phaeton Owners









I would love to have the V10 Diesel; 4-seater; and the new Hard Drive Nav system;


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## Phat Cat (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (rmg2)*

I 2nd


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## Impeccable (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Phat Cat)*

Well here in NY 99% of BP stations carry diesel


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## kgclark75 (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Impeccable)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Impeccable* »_Well here in NY 99% of BP stations carry diesel 

Kind of ironic since NY won't allow you to buy a diesel car.


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

"
I'm surprised anyone wants to go outside to pump gas in Scottsdale for a large part of the year ... or do have fully air-conditioned gas stations? "
One of the reason i want a car with a large gas tank and very high milage. My hybrid is close to 700 miles between fill ups. !
If I can get an electric Phaeton I can plug it in the garage ( AC conditioned) and really solve the problem.


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

No gloves or booties needed in NJ. I don't think the consumer is allowed to pump their own fuel?


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Impeccable)*

Many stations in South Florida carry premium auto diesel, I too, would love a V10 but doubt VW has the nerve to offer it here in the Phaeton. I wonder how it is selling in the Treg - the price premium seems to be punishing.


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (Gobuster)*

I believe (87%-92%) the V10 is no longer offered in the Phaeton as there's no room for the filter needed for EU5 compliance. 
The Touareg still ships with the V10 and VW just announced the R50 model which has an uprated V10 with similar outputs to those quoted by the various ECU tuners ie. circa 350 BHP and 625 lb ft torque.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/1...flesh/

_Quote, originally posted by *Gobuster* »_Many stations in South Florida carry premium auto diesel, I too, would love a V10 but doubt VW has the nerve to offer it here in the Phaeton. I wonder how it is selling in the Treg - the price premium seems to be punishing.



_Modified by adamkodish at 7:05 PM 10-15-2007_


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (adamkodish)*

At least the NAR Phaeton only suffered from the wrong badge - it could have been worse:
http://www.egmcartech.com/2007...he-us/


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## soswank (Dec 26, 2006)

http://www.leftlanenews.com/su....html
Sorry to bring up an old thread. 
I've been reading VWVortex for a few years now. But now that I am thinking of buying the Phaeton. Does anyone know if the V10 is going to be available in the Phaeton?


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## v10torque (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: (soswank)*


_Quote, originally posted by *soswank* »_http://www.leftlanenews.com/su....html
Does anyone know if the V10 is going to be available in the Phaeton? 

No, the V10 that was in the Phaeton doesn't comply with latest Euro emissions laws. The Touareg has room for a Diesel Particulate Filter (which makes it compliant) so it gets to keep the V10, but the Phaeton has no room, so the engine has been dropped from the Phaeton.
Shame, I would have bought another V10 diesel. Now I'm forced to buy a 6.0 petrol instead


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## uberanalyst (Sep 13, 2004)

I used to think that the ideal Phaeton would be one with a V10 TDI engine. But now that I've been fortunate enough to drive the Touareg with that engine this year and compare it to my V8 Phaeton, I'm not sure the V10 is necessary.
Don't get me wrong -- the V10 TDI's low-end torque is a blast to drive in the stoplight wars, but it's not as refined as the V8, which has less noise and vibration. And surprisingly, the fuel mileage of a Touareg V10 TDI and Phaeton gas V8 are nearly identical: about 16-17 in town, and 22-23 on the highway. (Both vehicles weigh about the same if equipped with the same engine, so the comparison isn't that crazy.)
*IF* VW were to bring the current Phaeton back to North America, I think the best engine choice would likely be the new ULSD V6 TDI currently being promised for the US-model Touareg for the 2009 model year. Such an engine would have more than enough torque to move the heavy car off the line, while providing much better fuel economy than the V10 TDI or V8 engines.
And as long as I'm dreaming/speculating, let me come to Dresden to pick up my new ULSD V6 TDI Phaeton, so I can drive it around Europe awhile before shipping it back to the US.
Are you listening, VW? ;-)
- Dave


_Modified by uberanalyst at 11:20 PM 12-12-2007_


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## soswank (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (uberanalyst)*

I would take the V6 TDI in the Phaeton!!!








p.s. even though the mileage may be the same, Diesel power is nothing like petrol/gas power. Plus, Diesel engines are more efficient. 


_Modified by soswank at 12:31 AM 12-13-2007_


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## sirAQUAMAN64 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (soswank)*

Hoping this happens








But with Passat being withdrawn, have to ask what the point is? The CC will not fill the void well I'm afraid.


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: (sirAQUAMAN64)*

I vote for the Audi V8 TDI like the one in the A8 - it would be great in a Phaeton.


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

there are constant rumours here in germany about the return of the v10, but vw didn't confirm that til now :/


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## sirAQUAMAN64 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (thomas b.)*

VW plans engine, transmission plants
North American plants will feed U.S. assembly operation
Rick Kranz 
Automotive News 
January 23, 2008 - 1:28 pm ET 
DETROIT -- Volkswagen will have engine and transmission assembly plants in North America to support a new vehicle assembly plant the automaker is expected to build in North Carolina.
The assembly plant could be operational in 2010.
" We'll make an announcement within six months" about the location of the plant, Stefan Jacoby, CEO of Volkswagen Group of America Inc., told the Automotive News World Congress today. After that announcement, the first vehicles could appear in " a little bit more than three years," he said.
Jacoby said the engine and transmission plants do not have to be near the assembly plant, saying Mexico and Canada are options. But " if we don't localize the plants" in North America, he said, " we can't be competitive." 
Generally speaking, an engine and transmission account for about one-third of a vehicle's cost.
Jacoby refused to confirm an Automotive News story that the automaker purchased or had an option to purchase land in Rocky Mount, N.C., east of Raleigh and Durham.
Said Jacoby: " There has been a lot of speculation on this front, including the silly rumor that I've been traveling the Carolina countryside with a bunch of Germans purchasing land. That is not true. 
" We need to build the right vehicle, at the right price, in the right plant, within the right supplier corridor, at the right time. A decision on local production will come in six months." 
The assembly strategy is part of VW's plan to sell 800,000 vehicles annually in the United States by 2018. VW refers to its " Five Pillars" plan to reach that target. The five pillars refer to: 
-- Redesigned vehicles and a wider product line for the United States.
-- A new advertising campaign to reposition the brand.
-- Improving the dealer network.
-- Streamlining the VW organization.
-- Evaluating U.S. production. 
In other comments, Jacoby said:
-- " We need to offer a portfolio of technology," to meet U.S. fuel economy regulations. " It will include hybrids, electric vehicles. The main pillar will be diesel. It will be lighter vehicles and, of course, this country has to get used to smaller vehicles. They could be an alternative." 
* -- It was a mistake to end Phaeton sales in the United States. " We are thinking of relaunching the Phaeton, which is difficult in this market. I think Volkswagen is so good at brands that we can offer models in the volume segment and also in the luxury segment. It is a state-of-the-art car, and I think this car will fit very well in this market." *
-- The VW brand has a sufficient number of U.S. dealers to handle sales volume of 350,000 to 400,000 vehicles. When the brand reaches that total, additional dealers will be added. Last year, VW sold 230,572 vehicles. In the meantime, Jacoby said, VW is concentrating on improving and strengthening the quality of its dealer network. 
-- The Chrysler-engineered VW minivan will debut at the Chicago Auto Show. 
-- Although VW once sold a pickup in the United States, a pickup will not be needed to reach VW's 800,000-unit U.S. target.


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (uberanalyst)*


_Quote, originally posted by *uberanalyst* »_
*IF* VW were to bring the current Phaeton back to North America, I think the best engine choice would likely be the new ULSD V6 TDI currently being promised for the US-model Touareg for the 2009 model year. Such an engine would have more than enough torque to move the heavy car off the line, while providing much better fuel economy than the V10 TDI or V8 engines.
Are you listening, VW? ;-)
- Dave


I had some real concerns that the V6 TDI wouldn't be up to the task of pulling this big heavy car around our winding English roads but after 5,000 miles I'm more than happy with its all-round performance. 
It gives an overall 30mp(Imperial) gallon (24mp(US) gallon) and 37mpg (30mpUSg) on a motorway run. In 'Sport' mode the car accelerates away surprisingly swiftly and quietly and can run up to a maximum 145mph. 
The equivalent Mercedes S-Class also has a 3-litre diesel (albeit on a lighter body) and I believe this diesel varient outsells the petrol engine S-Class both in the UK and throughout Europe. 
Loooking at the stock that VW UK dealers hold, the 3-litre TDI Phaeton accounts for around 90% of UK sales and holds its price far better than the V8, V10 and W12 models and its depreciation is similar to the big Merc, Audi and BMW.
So for me, the 3-litre TDI is the surprising winner.


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

some news posted yesterday by an "insider" on the german phaeton-forum of motor-talk.de:
1.) in week 22 of 2008 p will get some technical update f.e. 240 hp for the V6 TDI
2.) in 2009 a fine body-facelift and most likely a "big" diesel.


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## CLMims (Jul 13, 2007)

*Re: (thomas b.)*

Does anyone know if the new redesigned Phaeton going to be based on the upcoming A7? (I thought I read somewhere it was going to be "trimmed down" in size from its current dimensions)


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## poppy2 (Nov 28, 2006)

*Re: (thomas b.)*

For what it is worth . I was at a Dealership yesterday and one of the salesmen ,who was a member of the focus group prior to the Phaeton introduction , and still has contacts , stated that Phaeton would be back in NA 2009-10 slightly smaller featuring V6TDI . This car will follow the upgraded Passat "C C" model coming out this fall. It will be along the lines of the MB CLS and a logical step towards the new Phaeton to follow in 2009-10 .
Don


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## 76dartmouth (Dec 27, 2005)

*How about Price??*

Avid non-owner/ cruiser here who honestly appreciates the Phaeton, looks periodically and kicks himself for not pulling the plug a few x-mas’s back on a lease when they were flushing these things out the door with $10k+ rebates. I supremely appreciate all the Germans having owned all (current 545 and ML350). 
By no means do I intend to insult any of you. Taking this with a grain of salt because your owners (first reaction is to pushback) but not one person has mentioned the car was priced incorrectly. I am not saying you overpaid – its relative to ones perceived value – but everyone always seems to first blame VW for under-marketing the car, the dealers for not-supporting, large badges, outdated dealerships, supply for tests driving, misunderstood campaigns, dirty technicians, etc, etc, but no one comes flat out and admits the biggest mistake was that point in time, the car was over-priced – period, the end.
If they are to attempt a re-entry, it must be at a much lower price point of $45-$60K. This would be an natural, vertically step over the CC. It would also stand to benefit from a redesign off a “lesser” platform and not be re-freshed lest it suffer the very valid A8 argument as the more legitimate car/purchase. A down-market platform would allow VW to sell the car at a reduced price and would allow for a legitimate new introductory campaign. Even if it drops the price, it will not succeed selling the old car. A huge key to every German auto Mfgs future success will be the migration to a balanced US sourced product platform.
Alfa Romeo stands a better chance of entering and succeeding Up Market in the US even though at home, it to sells sub-compacts than VW does if it tries to re-enter in MB, BMW and AOA territory. I think they have a legitimate opportunity to play in the entry car buyer to Middle luxury segment but will never successfully evolve to a global cross-segment US brand. No-one has successfully done this and it surely wont be a German for obvious reasons.
Fire away..


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: How about Price?? (76dartmouth)*

Volumes could be written about the cause of the failure of the Phaeton in the North American market but price doesn't seem to be one of the reasons.
At the time it was introduced comparable Mercedes cars were selling for $20,000 to $30,000 more. As a matter of fact one of the main reasons many people purchased Phaetons was for the value they represented over comparably equipt vehicles. I first saw the car when a neighbor of mine purchased one as soon as they came out. It was a W12 Black/sonnenbeige that I drove. He said he paid $86,000 when the 12 cylinder Mercedes was around $115,000. That got me thinking about the value and I eventually bought a V8 in the low $40's and subsequently a W12 in the high $50's. Even though the car took an initial hit after it was announced that it was to be discontinued, I think it is now selling at about the same price as the Mercedes and Audi's of similar years, mileage and options.
The bigger problem with the price was the perception that people just weren't going to pay $60-$80,000 for a VW no matter if the car was made out of gold! Maybe we are really discussing two different things here: price vs value. The people I know who have them didn't mind the price because of the value it gave them. People will go into a Bentley store and no price will be too high, but the value may not be what makes them buy, whereas for the Phaeton the value was so good the price didn't matter as much.
I still say that if VW had opened a chain of boutique stores selling just Phaetons and Touregs like Toyota did when it started selling Lexus's, they would have been much more successful!


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I think the problem with pricing was that Volkswagen didn't want the Phaeton to be seen as a "cheap" luxury car but rather that the VAG could produce cars that justified such prices. 
The main reason for this is that whilst VW makes millions of cheap four-pot econoboxes, it also produces hot versions of almost all of them which generate higher marginal profits. VW hoped that if the Phaeton succeeded in raising people's perceptions of its brand, more people would think about spending $35,000 on a Golf R32 instead of $20,000 on a Rabbit.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: How about Price?? (76dartmouth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *76dartmouth* »_no one comes flat out and admits the biggest mistake was that point in time, the car was over-priced – period, the end.

Peter,
Essentially you've hit the nail on the head. However, there's a nuance which needs to be delineated.
At the risk of beating Ol' Gluepot yet again, away I go:
The vehicle was priced very competitively. Apples-to-apples comparisons show the Phaeton was somewhere between $13,000-20,000 less than comprably equipped Teutonic counterparts. 
*However*, what _was_ overpriced by a large margin was the ownership experience. There are a few dealerships which "get it". Liberty Imports. Autobarn, for the most part. One of the Gunthers (if I remember correctly). Others, to use the local vernacular of The Car Lounge, produced "epic fail". 
When I was a service writer for VW, I received nothing but pushback, discord and, dare I say it, animosity from my teammates and managers at both locations whenever I tried to give owners what I believed to be the "Phaeton Experience" (this was long before I became an owner). Even simple things, such as having a loaner car pulled around, gassed & running with the paperwork for said vehicle filled out before the Phaeton owner arrived were met with contention.
It's this "overpricing of the ownership experience", along with other key factors, which ultimately led to the Phaeton's withdrawal from the NAR. I can but hope that when the Phaeton relaunches in the NAR, it is done with knowledge gained from previous mistakes and that it is crafted in the same caring manner by those in Dresden who collaborated on this model to give us the pinnacle of engineering and craftsmanship currently occupying my parking spot.
[/soapbox]


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: How about Price?? (chrisj428)*

This seems very encouraging!!!!!!
http://www.motorauthority.com/...to-us/


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: How about Price?? (chrisj428)*

FWIW I think many people would say ownership experience in recent years with Mercedes has been as bad as with VW, at least in the UK.
I'm not sure how ownership experience accounts for the Phaeton's initially poor sales performance given you get that experience only after you've already bought the car and not before.
VW tried to square the circle when introducing a highly prestigious car behind its earnestly mid-ranking badge. It's as though they didn't understand their own brand success. Far from enhancing VW's standing the Phaeton was launched into disbelief and incomprehension from VW owners and confusion from the rest, who they needed to attract into ownership.
That said, in the UK it's possible now to buy an unused demonstration model for £30,000 which puts it squarely in top-spec Passat territory while undercutting the big Volvo saloons. So it may be pulling the market uphill but probably not in such numbers as to rescue it from market failure.
Now if VW had taken a leaf from Toyota's book, and badged it as a Horch, it might have been a different story: at least the badge would have fitted the product. Sales would still have remained low but perhaps better than currently. Whether VW dealers would have been able to do what Lexus has done is another question. Perhaps a better fit might have been achieved with Bentley. And no-one says that Bentley has been a market failure.


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

ceo winterkorn said today @ geneva motor-show, that the phaeton could return to the US even this year, if the V6 TDI ist successful there (f.e. in the A4).
http://www.finanzen.net/nachri...87116


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (thomas b.)*

The last para of that article contains an interesting remark: "In the meantime sales of the model improve, said Winterkorn in Geneva, "we will sell 7,000 Phaetons this year (2008) against 5,500 last year."
I guess it will require a bit of an attitude revolution to get North Americans to take seriously a big car propelled by a small diesel engine. But from my experience, they should take to it readily. Especially after a bit of an after-market tweak to the power output.


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## Highline (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: How about Price?? (76dartmouth)*

How can someone call the Phaeton over-priced when in USA it was sold hardly even at cost.


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (NickM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NickM* »_
On the V10 TDI, its one awfully impressive engine...to be honest with you I think they may find aome success in placing themselves into the high end diesel niche, especially if fuel prices keep rising and manufactuers continue to position modern diesel as eco friendly...at least they'd differentiate the car from the 7/S/A8/LS via diesel power.
Do yourself a favour and drive a V10 Touareg...I'll bet that you'd soon be wishing for the V10 in your Phaeton.


As it happens, my dealer gave me a V10 Touareg as a loaner yesterday. It was pretty impressive, and fun, but I still like my W12 Phaeton better. And while the V10 got better mileage, it wasn't that much better (around 18mpg per the computer, vs 14mpg or so I get in around town driving), especially considering that diesel is significantly more expensive than even premium unleaded these days.


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

Good news. This article from April 4th quotes Winterkorn saying the V6 TDI will return to the USA T H I S year:
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wir...67230/


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## Aristoteles (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (thomas b.)*

Can you translate the WinterKorn quote for me?
I have read elsewhere that he intends bringing the V6 diesel engine to the NAR so I don't doubt the story. You can certainly look forward to an average consumption of over 30mpg (or 24mpg in US measures).











_Modified by Aristoteles at 2:41 PM 4-6-2008_


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: (thomas b.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thomas b.* »_Good news. This article from April 4th quotes Winterkorn saying the V6 TDI will return to the USA T H I S year:


The question I have is will it be inside a Phaeton?


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

*Re: (Aristoteles)*

It says
_Quote, originally posted by *Aristoteles* »_Can you translate the WinterKorn quote for me?


The author says "_Piech was not amused when Pischetsrieder took the Phaeton away from the worlds biggest car market. His successor Winterkorn now will give it a second try and bring the Phaeton as a V6 TDI back to the USA yet in this year."_
It's page 3 in the middle. Winterkorn said in another interview last week (print version only) that the Phaeton II will be introduced "in the next decade and it will have the same classic sedan shape."


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## VWVictoria (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (PhaetonChix)*

The Papillion Silver W12 is now a Canadian Citizen known by the name of Ida and resides in Victoria BC, I beleive it to be the only one in N/A
Jeff


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## paddyh (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (VWVictoria)*

Is that the one out of Denver that I drove ? It is a very pretty color.
Patrick


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (VWVictoria)*

Pictures please!!


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## thomas b. (Dec 17, 2006)

Today an official VW-spokesman confirmed the return to the US, but not in 2008 as mentioned a few days ago. Further details about the exact date still to be announced:
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/akt....html


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: (thomas b.)*

Yup, the German press is all over it. As is TTAC:
Depreciator II: The Return of the VW Phaeton
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.c...eton/

Hard to believe, but stranger things have happened! The Touareg diesel, for instance, was absent for a whole 1.5 years, at it came back. If the Phaeton comes back in a year, it will have been absent only 2 years.


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## BroPhaeton (Jan 23, 2007)

per NY auto show VW reps, phaeton is not coming back


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: (BroPhaeton)*

I wouldn't give a whole lot of credence to what you hear from the people at the Auto Show. For the most part they are recruited from the local dealers to man the exhibits and are not any more informed about corporate plans than the salesmen at the dealership.
If the Phaeton is going to continue to be produced, VW will want the car in the NA region again. The re-introduction will most likely be in the form of the next generation of the car. I wouldn't count on anything before late 2009 - early 2010.
Hopefully it will be worth the wait!


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## DZD (Mar 25, 2007)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (thomas b.)*

Another article announcing the return of the Phaeton:
http://www.motorauthority.com/...year/


_Modified by DZD at 6:17 AM 4-18-2008_


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## vipa (Nov 20, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (DZD)*

Good Canadian news:
"Volkswagen to bring Phaeton back?
Big VW Sedan's Sales Picking Up Internationally

Canadian Auto Press
It hasn't been long since the Phaeton was officially withdrawn from sale in North America. Analysts pointed to poor sales; however, according to German auto magazine Auto Bild, Volkswagen is having second thoughts about the Phaeton. 
After being on sale for six years, the Phaeton's sales are starting to pick up. In its home market of Germany, over the first three months of the year the Phaeton sold an impressive 769 units - a whopping 45.4 percentage increase over the previous year. The only other executive vehicle to increase its sales is Mercedes' S-Class sedan. In fact, over the same period of time, the Phaeton outsold the BMW 7-Series. Price, content, and rock-solid build quality are all contributors to the Phaeton's stronger sales.

Sales of the updated Phaeton are second only to the Mercedes-Benz S-Class in Germany. (Photo: Volkswagen)And while half of all Phaetons built have ended up in Germany, it sells strongly in other markets too, including the UK, Spain, Italy and South Korea, where it is one of the brand's best-selling cars. Volkswagen would like to see the Phaeton make a return to one of the most important markets for car sales (the US), with speculation that it could arrive as early as this coming winter. Whether or not the current generation car arrives, one thing is fairly certain - a Phaeton will be sold here once again. The next generation model is scheduled to arrive by 2011.
Incidentally, Dr. Martin Winterkorn, chairman of Volkswagen AG suggests that the Phaeton is on a normal development path in the high-end luxury segment, saying that the first generation BMW 7-Series and Audi A8 didn't catch on right away either. Hopefully, for the Phaeton's sake, this statement will also hold true..."
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn....35828


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Phaeton-Comeback already 2008 ! (vipa)*

Great news! 
If VW brings the phaeton back in 2009/2011... I'll buy one!


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## dododavis (Dec 29, 2004)

*any news on potential phaeton return to US ?*

any news on potential phaeton return to US ? I haven't heard anything lately.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: any news on potential phaeton return to US ? (dododavis)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
Here is the thread above. Doesn't sound like it. The Passat CC has all the news.
Regards,
Brent
*Moderator please post to original thread.*


_Modified by W126C at 10:42 PM 8-25-2008_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: any news on potential phaeton return to US ? (W126C)*

Appended.
Michael


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