# Lazarus - The Chronicle of Josh's Project Phaeton



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location?*

A family member found a fixxer upper Phaeton that we are going to look at tomorrow.
The car has not ran in a long time and has been sitting. The seller just called us and said that he hooked battery cables to the car but is not getting power to anything.

Any thoughts? (besides run..







)
We are going to drive out and look at the car either way, so I am going to bring my multimeter with me.
Thanks!


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## paddyh (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Suggest you read the FAQ here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1652232
Lots of battery info. Remember, Phaeton's have two (2) battery's in the left and right rear trunk area, and failure of a battery complicates things. 
See this too for more discussion about discharged battery details.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1907963
Patrick




_Modified by paddyh at 10:35 PM 5-29-2009_


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## 357Sig (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

The Phaeton has two batteries. There is a lot written in this forum that explains it.
Here are some of links:
Battery Discharge when Phaeton not used for several days:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1686297
Discussion of problems arising from discharged batteries (battery management controller replacement):
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1907963
Electrical Problems - Includes TB 27-06-02, RVU (Campaign OH):
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?&id=2890020
Battery Discharge Discussion:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1920856
Two Bad Batteries:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1900966
Intervention Load Management on the Phaeton:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2250093
You can find even more related topics in the table of contents. 
The Phaeton is actually a large collection of computers that just happen to be housed inside an automobile. What that means is that the Phaeton is one of the most technically complex automobiles ever constructed. 
Fortunately, the engineers were up to the task. You will find that there are really very few "weak" spots on Phaetons, the cars are generally very robust. Phaetons can be finicky and temperamental at times, but all in all, very rewarding companions.
There's nothing else like them on the road for less that about $200,000. And that would be the various models of Bentley Continental line. The automotive press slobbers all over themselves to get behind the wheel of a Bentley. I've read every review I can get my hands and I can't recall ever reading a negative comment, except the $200,000 price, which is only a problem if it's a problem. The Phaeton and the Bentley Continental are built on the same platform and share a significant amount of hardware. 
I've read reviews that say the two car lines are about 80% the same under the skin. 
I wish you all the best in resurrecting that Phaeton. I'm on my second one and having a blast.
Bill


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## 357Sig (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (357Sig)*

Oops, here's the answer to your original question...
Fusebox under the steering wheel: -This one also has a PDF of all fuse and relay locations-
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3001224
Fusebox inside the trunk:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2020343
There are actually about 5 locations and fuse panels in the Phaeton. Refer to the PDF mentioned above for all of those.
Bill


_Modified by 357Sig at 12:04 AM 5-30-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_A family member found a fixxer upper Phaeton...
The car has not ran in a long time...
Any thoughts? (besides run..







)

Wow.... I don't know what to say. I don't think anyone has ever tried buying a 'fixer-upper' before, however, we do have one forum member who is a technician that has been working on a Phaeton that a customer bought that was in rough shape when the customer bought it. That car just bit the customer for $7,000+ for a transmission.
The best guidance I can offer you is this: Phaetons sold for between $60,000 and $100,000 when they were new. Even if you buy one tomorrow for $1, you will still be looking at maintenance and repair costs that are proportionate to a $60,000 to $100,000 car - which means that the repair costs are not cheap. Every part that you buy will be a 'large car part', whether it is a transmission or a tire, and will be substantially more expensive than the same part for a smaller vehicle.
Bill already brought up a point that illustrates this very well - the Phaeton has two batteries in it, and both of them are large and expensive batteries. There are not enough Phaetons on the road in North America to convince the aftermarket suppliers (Pep Boys, etc.) to stock generic replacements, which means that when you need to replace those two batteries, it's going to cost you about $500.
If you are very highly experiences with Volkswagen maintenance and diagnostics, and if you can set $10K aside as the 'contingency fund' to purchase parts if you have any unpleasant surprises during the first year of ownership, then I guess you could move on to the next step in the process, which is to actually look at the car.
But, all things considered, I don't think a Phaeton is a good candidate for a 'fixer-upper' project. It would be a little bit like finding that the Palace of Versailles in France is on the real estate market at a very low price, being marketed as a 'Handyman's Special'. It's not the low purchase price you should be thinking about, it is the potential cost of repairing everything that might be wrong with it.
In other words - such a project could both bankrupt and frustrate you.
Michael
*PS:* As you may have noticed from the signed replies above, we work on a first-name basis in this forum, and invite you to do the same.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*

Hi guys.. well, after leaving my house at 8am this morning.. we are back and the car is off the trailer a little after midnight!!
Thanks for the help. The seller (car flipper) bought the car at auction after VW repo'd it from the previous owner. He truely knows NOTHING about the car or how it works so it was an interesting day.
Problem #1 was pretty easy.. he had hooked to the wrong battery so was clueless when the interior lights, etc did not come on.
Hooked to the left battery and voila we got some activity.
Let me dig a little into the scenario for you- I am familier with VW from aircooled through the first 4 VW MK. I have owned, built and modified many many VW over the past 20 years.
Anything the car needs mechanically should not be an issue. I have a lift in my home garage and the tools to do what may need to be done. 
The actual owner of the car completely understands the car is a extremely complex and sophisticated unit and is willing to persue it's repair and take the risks/costs required. He has a Benz that is similar on a smaller scale (wires, sensors, fiber optic, etc).
This is just as much for the project of fixing the car and getting it running as it is about the car itself.. an adventure it will be. Honestly the car deserves more then its fate would be otherwise were we not to step in and save it. (junkyard or parted out).
At this point the car is going on a trickle charger and then getting scanned for codes tomorrow and see where we are at.
Things we know so far-
#1 The drivers window is down and they put plastic over it.
#2 The key was in the ign when we got there (dead car) and it would not come out. I called a friend who has worked on these before and he told me how to release it. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the power or if the cyl itself is broken.
#3 the car would not come out of park, again we learned how to get to the manual release to put it in neutral.

I appreciate the friendly thorough responses and am sure to have many questions in the future. 
Off the top of my head is there any updates that must/should be done to the car/engine/trans?
I see the battery management controller threads, I will check the part on this car and update if needed to the newer style. Are there any software/parts updates or anything of that nature that I should check to see if the dealer should have done? (like the newer brake light switch in the mk4 or the green coolant sensor upgrade.)
Bedtime!!
Thanks- Josh


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_ ...The key was in the ign when we got there (dead car) and it would not come out. 
the car would not come out of park...

Josh:
Both of those are directly related to the dead batteries, so, nothing to worry about there.
Michael


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## 357Sig (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
This is just as much for the project of fixing the car and getting it running as it is about the car itself.. an adventure it will be. Honestly the car deserves more then its fate would be otherwise were we not to step in and save it. (junkyard or parted out).


I couldn't agree more. I'll be interested to follow your progress. 
The car looks to be a 2004 V8 model by the photo.
Bill


_Modified by 357Sig at 8:34 AM 5-31-2009_


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*

Hi Josh,
When you run the fault codes, you are going to get a boat load that are most likely just related to the fact the power system was dead. I would bet most of those are irrelevant. Save those fault codes for a reference and clear all fault codes. I assume you already know this and implies that the car starts. 
Well this sounds like a fun project. Keep us posted on your progress, I for one will follow this with great interest.
Here is the J523 update thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...96985
More info can be found in the FAQ, Fourth Post - Technical reference material.
Regards,
Brent


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (W126C)*

This car might actually be the little gem; someone's lack of knowledge is your fortune. Can you imagine, a perfectly good car sold for cheap because of a dead battery. How is the car's cosmetic condition? If you don't mind me asking, what was the purchase price?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (W126C)*

Fun fun fun.. where we are at right now-
No, the car doesn't run and hasn't since repo time. At this point it is still at the early electrical freaking out mode for us.
I went out and hooked up the charger to the left side battery today and the trunk light came on. I figured OK.. let it charge while I mow the grass for a couple hours then come back and scan/clear codes.
...Then I swear I hear a faint ding ding like a door chime, but I am not 100% positive so I go to the front of the car to check. I don't hear anything anymore so I look inside and I see that the cluster is all lit up. (no key in car). I figure the computer is just doing crazy things because of voltage issues so I think no prob.. just let it charge.
I go over to the other side to hook up the R battery to the charger (4 bank). When I put the cables from the car onto the battery the starter starts to crank over on its own. I pulled it back off and grabbed the fuse box papers I had printed out and look to find the starter relay. While I am doing this the radiator fan turns on (again still no key in the car)... so a this point I disconnect the charger & pull the *-* battery cable off the L battery to cut power.
OK...so the car doesn't like being charged from dead with the battery in the car apparently. I say to myself lets pull out the battery and charge it on it's own then put it back in once charged. 
Here comes the next problem. Lovely VW has the 'captured' bolt head on the batter clamps. Problem with this is it appears to have be a little 'used'..as I try to turn the 10mm nut to get the clamp loose and the bolt just spins in the soft metal of the clamp. There is not much room to do much about it and I tried grabing it with the tools I have to hold it, but the head of the bolt is thin and not much to bite onto. The cable itself is also short so not enough slack to cut off the clamp and put a new one on.
My thought for a solution is to JB weld the bolt head to the clamp to permantly secure it from spinning. That should work with no future concerns.
Until I do that and can get the battery out for it's own charge, I was thinking of finding a way to kill power to the rest of the car so I can charge the battery while still hooked up.
It appears to me that the #1 fuse on the panel over the L battery is the one to pull to achieve this- (power supply relay/starter/ECM). 
Thoughts?
I'm going to pull it and hook the battery back up and see what happens. If the car still powers back up I'll 'epoxy' the clamp and wait for it to cure and yank the battery out.
Fun fun- Josh


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Well.. even with the #1 fuse pulled the dash still lit up, door chime beeping (key out, door closed).. so I pulled the *-* terminal off the L battery again and carefully epoxied the head of the right clamp bolt with quick-steel.
It say hardens in 15 minutes, cures in 1 hour. That hour is up, so I am going to go see if it worked and if so pull the battery and charge it on its own.
If I am understanding the cars battery roles thus far, I don't need to charge the R starting battery at this point correct? Once I get the car to calm down and a properly charged left battery in it the R battery will charge itself if and when I get the engine started from what I have read.
I find it *really* weird that the car turns stuff on and tries to start itself with no key.
Oh well.. off to see if I can get that battery out.
I'll take a pic of my repair job and of the car-quest battery that is in it.








-Josh


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Josh - can't add anything at all - but I am fascinated!! Keep posting!
Thanks
M


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Ok.. only progress so far is that I was able to get the battery out and onto the charger by itself.
The quicksteel didnt work at all.. it crumbled and fell off. I was able to persuade the clamp off with a couple flatblade screwdrivers. 
At this point since I can get a better angle at it, I am thinking to use a dremel to cut off the old bolt and replace it with a allen head bolt so I can hold the back whilst tightening the nut upon reinstallation.
Here is another shot of the hooptie as it sits now-








And here are a couple pictures of the battery that was in the car and my charger setup.











































And I was happy to see this part# as to rule it out for potential issues...


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

I'm enjoying your write up and I wish you all the best on this journey.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_If I am understanding the cars battery roles thus far, I don't need to charge the R starting battery at this point correct? Once I get the car to calm down and a properly charged left battery in it the R battery will charge itself if and when I get the engine started from what I have read.

Hi Josh:
The answer to that question is "Uh, sort of". 
Under normal circumstances (healthy car with no known problems, simply a discharged right hand battery), it should be possible to start the car up using the left battery alone.
However - given the history of your vehicle (it has sat for a long time without being used, and may have other issues), I think it would be to your great advantage to remove BOTH batteries and then charge and function-check both batteries. By doing this, you will be eliminating a whole whack of potential problems that might cause you to go scurrying down dead-end paths trying to troubleshoot your car.
Another alternative you might want to consider - this is AFTER you charge both batteries, not instead of charging both batteries - is to hook up a set of jumper cables to the two terminals that are under the hood (passenger side, very back of engine area) and provide 'known good' cranking power to the starter motor from another vehicle, such as that red Golf I see in the background of your pictures.
Those two jumper cable attachment points under the hood provide power directly to the starter motor. So, provided that you have sufficient power from either or both of the two batteries in the trunk to close the appropriate relays required to initiate a start sequence, the power supplied to the jumper cable attachment points will crank the starter.
Lastly, FWIW, the main battery that you have posted a picture of is not the OEM battery. I don't know whether or not it meets the required specifications as a replacement battery. Below is a photo of an OEM left side battery. Note the amp-hour capacity and CCA capacity.
Michael


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*

Morning Michael,
Yes, I may charge the R battery also as you suggest just to rule out and possible voltage drop it may induce into the system.
At this point before I even get to the start the car portion of this journey I want to get the car to simply behave when power is supplied. (No mysterious self operation of starter, fans, etc).
Once that is achieved and codes are cleared, I will pull the fuel supply lines and purge the tank. After a couple gallons of fresh petro + a bottle of fuel system cleaner the attempted firing ceremony will commence!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

The battery is indeed a generic version and not a glass mat as the factory uses. I am sure it was a cheaper cost to the prior owner. This will be replaced in time as to avoid the acidic fumes causing issues but for now its capacity and power exceeds factory specs and is suited to my needs. As you can see the casing is identical in both size and style right down to the handles.
Have a great day all!! I'll let you know of any progress tonight after work.
- Josh

*Factory Specs*










*Carquest Specs*


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## climbingcue (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Look forward to the updates on the progress of the car. I will have to come and see in sometime soon.


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_I find it *really* weird that the car turns stuff on and tries to start itself with no key.

Josh -
I would say that you are correct, this is *really* weird. I can't recall of hearing anyone having a similar problem. Could there be a problem with the ignition system or immobilizer system? 
It would be great if you could do some write-ups as you work with photos etc. I suspect you will be doing some repairs that many of us have not faced. 
Best of luck,
~Nate


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (ruddyone)*

Evening everyone.
So tonight after work I hooked up the now fully charged *L* battery.. left the *R* battery cables off. My thoughts were if the car behaved otherwise then I would hook the *R* battery back up and see if the starter turned itself over again.
Before I could get the laptop plugged in the engine fans started running (key out). Given that, I didn't even bother hooking up the starter battery.
First thing I did was turn off the immobilizer. 
The reasoning for this was #1- the car was repoed and the only key we were given looks brand new (coded? who knows) #2- the car flipper guy we got it from who bought it at auction had it towed to the dealer and had them try to get it running.. they supposivly spent 12 hours on it and replaced the CCM (Comfort Control Module- coded? who knows)

Turning off the immo rules out any problems with the key or CCM not being programmed correctly. Once the car is up and running I can code all that stuff back to normal if need be.

I scanned the car 'complete'...and found what must of been over 100 fault codes. There were literally exactly 20 fault codes for the radio alone.
I have an older version of Vagcom so I cannot clear all the codes at once. I went through each controller and cleared the codes section at a time. Some sections cleared out and nothing came back, some cleared some of the codes but kept some faults active.
Below is what faults stayed behind when I did another full scan after clearing what I could. Down to 'only' 23 now!!








Oh...and BTW, even with a fully charged battery, the car will still not give me the key back once put in the dash..I need to manually release it each time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VAG-COM Version: Release 409.1-US

Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton D1
Scan: 01,02,03,05,06,07,08,09,11,13,15,16,17,18,19,23,27,28,29,34,36,37,38,39,46,47,57,65,66,68,69,71,75,76,77

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine
Controller: 4D0 907 560 CS
Component: 4.2L V8/5V G 0030
Coding: 0007873
Shop #: WSC 01065
4 Faults Found:
18347 - Powertrain Databus: Missing Message from Controller for Access & Start Auth.
P1939 - 008 - Implausible Signal
18045 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from Electric Load Controller
P1637 - 008 - Implausible Signal
18036 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from Steering Angle Sensor
P1628 - 008 - Implausible Signal
18043 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from A/C Controller
P1635 - 008 - Implausible Signal
Readiness: 0110 1101
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans
Controller: 09L 927 760 C
Component: AG6 09L 4,2L V8 1003
Coding: 0001102
Shop #: WSC 00000
1 Fault Found:
18274 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Messages
P1866 - 000 - -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth.
Controller: 3D0 909 137 E
Component: G1 Kessy 6840
Coding: 0002280
Shop #: WSC 08352
5 Faults Found:
00166 - Access/Start Authorization Switch
010 - Open or Short to Plus
00189 - Relay for Supply Voltage Terminal 50 Adaptation 2
006 - Short to Plus
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30
009 - Open or Short to Ground
00188 - Relay for Supply Voltage Terminal 50 Adaptation 1
012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit
00288 - Steering Column Lock Actuator (N360)
010 - Open or Short to Plus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 06: Seat Mem. Pass
Controller: 3D0 959 759 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 BF 1520
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC
Controller: 3D0 907 040 G
Component: Climatronic D1 1144
Coding: 0000002
Shop #: WSC 00000
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect.
Controller: 
Note: Excessive Comm Errors
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skipping Address 15-Airbags
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel
Controller: 3D0 953 549 D
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401
Coding: 0000032
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments
Controller: 3D0 920 981 G
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB8 0414
Coding: 0007221
Shop #: WSC 01079
5 Faults Found:
01310 - Level Control System Control Module (J197)
004 - No Signal/Communication
01314 - Engine Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication
01315 - Transmission Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication
01316 - ABS Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication
01321 - Control Module for Airbags (J234)
004 - No Signal/Communication
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway
Controller: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway K<>CAN 0101
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01079
8 Faults Found:
00456 - Control Module for Access and Start Control (J518)
004 - No Signal/Communication
00458 - Control Module for Battery Monitoring (J367)
004 - No Signal/Communication
00778 - Steering Angle Sensor (G85)
004 - No Signal/Communication
01310 - Level Control System Control Module (J197)
004 - No Signal/Communication
01314 - Engine Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication
01315 - Transmission Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication
01316 - ABS Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication
01321 - Control Module for Airbags (J234)
004 - No Signal/Communication
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr
Controller: 3D0 959 760 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 F 1520
Coding: 0000004
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 37: Navigation
Controller: 
Note: Excessive Comm Errors
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics
Controller: 3D0 907 135 B
Component: Dachmodul 0605
Coding: 0000047
Shop #: WSC 01065
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System
Controller: 3D0 035 465 
Component: 08K-AUDIOVERST 0111
Coding: 0000000
Shop #: WSC 00000
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 65: Tire Pressure
Controller: 3D0 907 273 C
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021
Coding: 0011204
Shop #: WSC 01077
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr.
Controller: 3D1 955 119 
Component: Front Wiper 2005
Coding: 0000000
Shop #: WSC 00000
No fault code found.
End --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts? Thanks- Josh


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Wait a minute! Wasn't there supposed to be a sequence for reconnecting the batteries?


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## EdLogix (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (dlouie)*

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting on this forum. i don't own a Pheaton, but I have the Treg and I believe that the starting system is very similar:
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth.
Controller: 3D0 909 137 E
Component: G1 Kessy 6840
Coding: 0002280
Shop #: WSC 08352
5 Faults Found:
00166 - Access/Start Authorization Switch
010 - Open or Short to Plus
00189 - Relay for Supply Voltage Terminal 50 Adaptation 2
006 - Short to Plus
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30
009 - Open or Short to Ground
00188 - Relay for Supply Voltage Terminal 50 Adaptation 1
012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit
00288 - Steering Column Lock Actuator (N360)
010 - Open or Short to Plus
By looking at this, and knowing that this car comes from a repo, I believe that they probably tried to start the car with no key by hot-wiring the starter. 
Look for a positive wire jumped to the starter relay or even to the starter motor.
This is by far the most interesting topic now on Vortex. I wish you have your new car running smoothly as soon as possible, just don't do the skipad with the Pheaton








Hector.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (EdLogix)*

Very thoughtful observation Hector, thanks for contributing it.
Michael


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (EdLogix)*

Hector -
Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I just wasn't sure that anyone would actually try that on a more sophisticated car as one would assume it wouldn't work because of the immobilizer system. I have bought somewhere between 10-15 cars at repo auctions and have only seen this a few times. 
Nate


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (ruddyone)*

Still researching, but I find it interesting that most of the faults that remained after clearing are all connected in this picture I came across-


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## EdLogix (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Nate,
Actually yes, it doesn't look so bad. Can Getaway and Instrument Panel errors are just consequences created by another module. 
I'm pretty sure that the starter module was fried and it's the one creating so much trouble.

Have you physically located the starting module inside the car?
Hector.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (EdLogix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EdLogix* »_I'm pretty sure that the starter module was fried and it's the one creating so much trouble.

Have you physically located the starting module inside the car?



Hector, I agree it seems the likely culprit. It is located in the drivers footwell. I will be removing it tomorrow if time allows.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Josh:
You can find detailed instructions for the disassembly and reassembly procedures necessary to get access to controller 05 (the access and start controller) in this post: Retrofitting Keyless Start to Phaetons that are equipped with Keyless Entry.
Be aware that if you have to replace the Access and Start Controller, the whole vehicle (and all the keys) needs to be re-coded so that the Access and Start Controller, the Engine controller, the Instrument Cluster controller, and the Immobilizer get along together and will authorize the car to start. To the best of my knowledge, this requires that the vehicle be hooked up to the Volkswagen technical center via internet (something that is accomplished at the VW dealer). So, you might want to plan for this.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*

*PS:* If you intend to get a second key for the vehicle, order it now, because the procedure for authorizing a new key to work with the vehicle is the same as the procedure for replacing the Access and Start Controller.
By ordering a new key ahead of time and authorizing it at the same time as you replace controller 05, you will save the cost of having the dealership do this twice. Typically, it is about an hour of labour to authorize a new key if the process is straightforward and the car was running just fine when it drove in the door.
Michael


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Josh:
Be aware that if you have to replace the Access and Start Controller, the whole vehicle (and all the keys) needs to be re-coded so that the Access and Start Controller, the Engine controller, the Instrument Cluster controller, and the Immobilizer get along together and will authorize the car to start. To the best of my knowledge, this requires that the vehicle be hooked up to the Volkswagen technical center via internet (something that is accomplished at the VW dealer). So, you might want to plan for this.
Michael


Morning Michael and everyone else,
I got a good laugh when I sat down and saw the thread title. Back from the dead it will be!! - Hopefully soon.. I am anxious knowing a single simple part could have it driving.
I think we are on the downward slope as far as getting the car running. The module *should* be straight forward plug & play then fire the car up since I have the immo turned off. 
Once it is in and driving if need be, we can have the dealer take care of any keys/coding that will need to be done to allow it to be turned back on in the future. 
The SKC is programmed into the cluster, comfort control module, the keys, the ECU (and possibly others on the Phaeton). All the components need to be programmed to match on this code or the immobilizer kicks in and the car won't start.
You mention dealer going on the internet. That is because of VW's policy on the *SKC*. 
Here is some info from a thread about the SKC/IMMO-

_Quote »_SKC stands for Secret Key Code. Think of it as the password for the immobilizer system. All immobilizer-equipped cars require the SKC to perform certain security-related functions, including adding keys, adapting ECUs or instrument clusters, and changing the mileage on the odometer. 
1999.5 cars did not have Immobilizer, so they don’t have SKCs.
From 2000 to 2001, VW included a black plastic scratch-off tag with the keys to every new car. The car’s 4-digit SKC was under the scratch-off panel. After 2001, VW no longer distributed any car’s SKC with the car’s keys. If you don't have this tag with your keys, you're out of luck. VWoA will not replace the tag or otherwise provide you with your car's SKC.
From 2002 to early 2005, VW allowed it’s techs to receive an encoded SKC that was functional with the VAS service tool for one day and one day only. It came in the form of a seven-digit SKC that, when entered into the VAS tool (already programmed with the dealership’s workshop number and the importer number) on the date it was requested, allowed the tech to access the security-related functions of the ECU and instrument cluster. Because the VAS system’s date can’t be changed, the seven-digit SKC was only good for the day. If the work took longer than a day, the tech would have to request a second seven-digit SKC.
(There’s a program floating around out there that allows you to convert a seven-digit SKC, date of issue, importer number and workshop number into a geniune original four-digit SKC. It’s called “VAG 7 to 4 Digit Pin Conversion”, or VAG74.exe. If you happen to have an old service ticket that has the seven-digit code scribbled on it, you can probably use this program to get your four-digit SKC.)
Starting in early 2005, VW went with the Geko system. The Geko system securely connects the dealer’s VAS tool to the mothership at VWoA’s headquarters in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and allows the VAS tool to perform the security-related functions without exposing the dealer tech (or the consumer) to the SKC. *It is no longer possible for the tech to retrieve your car’s SKC. When they tell you they can’t get it, they’re not lying.* From that point forward, if you wanted to know your SKC, you would have to find it a different way.


For the average person the need exists to go to a dealer to allow access to this # for coding the system. I already have the *SKC* for this car.. I just plug in my laptop.








That SKC is all it takes (along with the knowledge of the procedure & a Vagcom) to code new keys on both of my Mk4. I haven't looked into the Phaeton key programming procedure yet because of low priority.

Currently my solution as mentioned above was to turn off the immobilizer and bypass any hurdles involving it at this point and just focus on getting the car running.








Thanks- Josh


----------



## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Great thread. Following with interest!


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*

Josh:
Topic is truly intriguing but scary at the same time. Imagine a car that can defend itself from unauthorized external threats so well.
I agree with Michael that a good idea would be to get a second authorized key for the car before you went too far. Is it even possible, since the car's a repo and an auction orphan, that the authorized keys for the car were never recovered from the "original" owner? At that point someone may have tossed in keys from another VW product to ease a purchaser's fears. The reason, I mention this is I also have a Touareg with my Phaeton. Yesterday after washing the Touareg I tried moving it into the garage with no initial success. It behaved like a bad battery but also displayed "Immobilizer Activated" on the MFI. Eventually I came to my senses and noticed I was trying to use my Phaeton key in the Touareg. Probably not your problem but if it is, you could continue troubleshooting for the next several years and I doubt you'll outsmart the Phaeton.
The car looks great and I'm sure you're dying to drive it.
Good luck.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (Jxander)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jxander* »_you could continue troubleshooting for the next several years and I doubt you'll outsmart the Phaeton.

There is nothing to outsmart. It is a machine with a finite # of parts which can all be tested and systematically ruled out of the equation. I can fix anything.









For sake of conversation since there is not much else to do until I get the new part installed- I'll let you guys see part 2 of what we are thinking about-
http://www.fourtitude.com/news...shtml
This would be self-installed in my garage with before and after dyno testing, a full write up with pictures, soundclips.. 

-Josh


----------



## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (Jxander)*

Which kit are you going with? STAGE 1 or 2??


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (GS340)*

2 of course..no point in doing it halfassed.
It is only 8psi and air/water intercooled.. that is really tame.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

Time will tell...


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*

Truly fascinating thread. I've been reading along for the last hour. 
SUBSCRIBED!
PC


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

wow this is prob the most interesting thread in a while. i am following it too. cant wait for the final result with the supercharger installed n all


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## rbn3 (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: (itsallbeendonebefore)*

Thread is fascinating and terrifying. I consider myself just about average when it comes to car knowlege. There was a time when I could fix alot of things but there weren't alot of things to fix under the hood. Last winter I came out of the office when it was 5 degrees and the old w-12 would not fire up. I junped it to the hot terminals under the hood...no dice. I let it sit until it got to about 32 the next day (heat wave)...still no dice. It died completely, fell off it's hydraulics, was covered with snow and looked like a tough tow even. A skilled flat bedder with a few 2x4;s managed to creep it onto the flat bed without any harm. Under the extended warranty (one of the few smart things I've ever bought and I got it through this forum) the $2200 repair cost me $25 (warranty tow coverage maxs at $50).
But why did the starter fry?
Damn tire presure monitor faults under 30 degrees without fail (module replaced twice).
Alarm system occasionally goes off without provocation.
Flat tire alarm will sound on the freeway at 60 mph when the pressure monitor shows no problems and neither does a manual pressure guage.
Occasionally the center screen will stay black until it has run for a couple minutes.
Age and electrical gremlins seem to come together.
I'm sure hoping that your "repo"can be resurrected!!! You seem knowlegable and brave. I've learned that discretion is sometime the better part of valor. Good luck!


_Modified by rbn3 at 3:24 AM 6-6-2009_


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## parkbob (Jun 18, 2008)

Thread is certainly interesting.I have my car being repaired for the vent motors as we speak.I hope the VW mechanic knows what he is doing.Service writer was supposed to call me earlier and let me know when to pick it up.Have not heard from him,I hope its ready tomorrow.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (rbn3)*

I deal with electrical gremlins every day. 
I fix appliances for a living and you would be amazed at the stuff they are putting in modern high end washers, ovens, fridges, etc.
What I find interesting is the differences between the type of people that own the different platforms of VW.
In my old aircooled and Mk2 cars you will find a large % of people who own them that will tear out a transmission or engine and not think twice of it. 
In my R32 and Mk4 GTI there are a bunch of people who will change oil, plugs, filters.. but the limit of mechanical work seems to be suspension changes, maybe an exhaust swap. If they do much of anything for more power they seem to default to paying a shop to install a turbo kit (for the most part- there are some exceptions).
On the Phaeton it seems while I see some posts on changing interior trim bits most people are the drive it and take it to the dealer when it needs servicing or fixing type.
Has there been *anyone* who has modified either engine for more power? Ever taken it to a drag strip..just because? 
I'd like to take a W12 with the limiter removed to the standing mile (or this blower if we do it). And yes I would take a Phaeton to the skid pad in a heartbeat. It certainly is not much different than the Audi Q7 that some woman was driving when I was there..








Now before I get flamed, I know that is not what this car was designed for and certainly not the market it is directed towards.. but I can't be the only one that likes to mash the throttle sometimes?? Am I?

I guess I'm pretty unique.. I've fixed everything my whole life, cars, motorcycles, lawnmowers, etc.
I've also never liked taking the easy route. That is why I never put a turbo on my R32. Instead I stick to traditional old hotrod mindset and have installed intake, cams, a ported head, headers, high flow cats and larger exhaust. Sure I've only increased the HP from 250 to about 320 but *I* built it.. not some shop.

We are currently waiting for the Kessy module to arrive. It is estimated to be here next Friday. I hate waiting. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## parkbob (Jun 18, 2008)

Well seeing that there are not any race tracks in my area,I can;t do that.The speed limit on the turnpike is 70.I do get her up to 100 on occasion but I don;t need more then that.I also couldn't fix a tricycle.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_I fix appliances for a living...

Awesome - just the exact skill I have been looking for. I have been having constant problems with a Jenn-Air range (like, for about 7 years) - I need to talk to you via PM about this...
Michael


----------



## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Here are a couple of clips to enjoy. I have seen some track video of a Phaeton but can't remember where right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlLnBnqzUwE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ccdI7JXgPQ
Nate


----------



## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: (ruddyone)*

Oh yea, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EztuOCerBt0
Forgot about searching with google. The run suits the music. I only saw him get up to 100mph. I've set the cruise at 130mph before.
Nate


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Awesome - just the exact skill I have been looking for. I have been having constant problems with a Jenn-Air range (like, for about 7 years) - I need to talk to you via PM about this...
Michael


Sure thing.. hit me up. It is an entertaining job and invaluable to my family and friends to say the least. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Nate-

THANK YOU!
ALL 3 of those videos kicked ass!!
First the 170mph was impressive..not a strain at all. I've only have my golf up to 154mph on the GPS. I wonder how accurate the speedo in the Phaeton is.
The 2nd one of the dyno was bizzare.. I've been to and on the dyno more times than I can count with several cars..and to watch that big engine rev out and not hear a thing except tire noise on the rollers is strange!! It is really hard to believe this is the same car- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGH4cDyAt4M
and 3rd.. to whoever took the car to the roadcourse track day- bravo!! Just because it weighs 5300+ pounds doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. Everything looked utterly calm and controlled!


----------



## OEMplus.com (May 27, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Where is Prince Ludwig? He's the Phaeton track master...


----------



## websaabn (May 23, 2003)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
What I find interesting is the differences between the type of people that own the different platforms of VW.
In my old aircooled and Mk2 cars you will find a large % of people who own them that will tear out a transmission or engine and not think twice of it. 
In my R32 and Mk4 GTI there are a bunch of people who will change oil, plugs, filters.. but the limit of mechanical work seems to be suspension changes, maybe an exhaust swap. If they do much of anything for more power they seem to default to paying a shop to install a turbo kit (for the most part- there are some exceptions).
On the Phaeton it seems while I see some posts on changing interior trim bits most people are the drive it and take it to the dealer when it needs servicing or fixing type.
Has there been *anyone* who has modified either engine for more power? Ever taken it to a drag strip..just because? 
I'd like to take a W12 with the limiter removed to the standing mile (or this blower if we do it). And yes I would take a Phaeton to the skid pad in a heartbeat. It certainly is not much different than the Audi Q7 that some woman was driving when I was there..








Now before I get flamed, I know that is not what this car was designed for and certainly not the market it is directed towards.. but I can't be the only one that likes to mash the throttle sometimes?? Am I?

I guess I'm pretty unique.. I've fixed everything my whole life, cars, motorcycles, lawnmowers, etc.
I've also never liked taking the easy route. That is why I never put a turbo on my R32. Instead I stick to traditional old hotrod mindset and have installed intake, cams, a ported head, headers, high flow cats and larger exhaust. Sure I've only increased the HP from 250 to about 320 but *I* built it.. not some shop.

We are currently waiting for the Kessy module to arrive. It is estimated to be here next Friday. I hate waiting. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif










I have noticed the same thing. its just a car







no need to be afraid to work on it, it's all bolts nuts and wires


----------



## climbingcue (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_ *I* built it.. not some shop.


Really


----------



## mrsharkbait (Oct 22, 2008)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
Has there been *anyone* who has modified either engine for more power? Ever taken it to a drag strip..just because? 


I took mine to Laguna Seca. Frankly it is not as much fun as my Caterham, but I was impressed by how fast it could go around the track.
I would have jumped on that supercharger if I still had my S6, but not for the Phaeton. 
Eugene

_Modified by mrsharkbait at 11:33 AM 6-7-2009_


_Modified by mrsharkbait at 11:54 AM 6-7-2009_


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (mrsharkbait)*

Sorry to high jack this great thread, but behold....a former forum member at Nelson Ledges:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EztuOCerBt0


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Hey guys.. got the new Kessy module today and installed it.
First thing I noticed is the car doesn't try to start itself on it's own anymore. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
2nd thing I noticed is that the car will now give me the key back!! Yea!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I looked at the old scan for the coding # and went into vag-com to code the new module to the old #. Two things-
#1- when I went into the code menu screen and the yellow box pops up that shows what coding options there are it appears for some reason the old controller was coded to a 5 speed trans (W12) where this car has a 6-speed (V8).

HAHA- EDIT.. I'm a dummy...in trying to get this done before it rains I was rushing and not using my brain.... BRB...hopefully with good news!!!


_Modified by PowerDubs at 1:46 PM 6-13-2009_


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

OK.. going to post this in the Vag-com forum also.
I know what the coding for the new Kessy module should be.. and I have the SKC for the car.. but it won't let me login to the new module with the cars SKC and it won't let me code the new module with out logging in.
I know when I put a euro cluster in my MK4 that I logged into the euro cluster with it's own SKC first then changed it to the new SKC to match the car and everything worked as it should. This Kessy being a new part however is a different situation.









Thoughts?
-Josh


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

This is retarded.
I can understand if this was a used part from a different car and therefore already had a code assigned to it that it would need both the old code and the new code.
Being a new part there should be NO reason for it to be designed 'locked' by default. Unless someone knew the SKC of the car they were putting it in the part is useless anyway! 
Ideally it should be open by default and I should be able to install it and give it the new SKC to pair it to the car. Noooo.. it seems Mike was right and VW is going to force us to pay to flatbed the car to the dealer and pay them for the privilege of hooking to their computer.. even though I know the existing SKC of the car already.
4 lousy #'s are going to cost $$$ to resolve.
WHY??!! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## x96283 (Apr 30, 2008)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Well to answer your question...








Yes, I've taken the W12 to the track. 14.2 @ 99mph stock as stock can be. I could work on the launch more because it felt like there was more in it. Now with the better summer Bentley wheels and rubber I might do better, though the rotational mass might slow me a bit.
My car is also the one in the dyno video. Its not the same in the "rev engine" clip. She put down about 320awhp that day. I ran it at the track first and then wanted to see what the numbers were to back it up.
I'd love to work on the exhaust and fab something to eliminate some of the cats (iirc there's 6??!!).


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (x96283)*

Just confirmed what I thought..
When installing a NEW cluster you only need your cars SKC,.. with a used cluster you need both.
Why is the Kessy any different...or am I doing something wrong??
-Josh


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Don't forget to bring all your keys with you when you take the car to the dealer to have the adaptation of the new Access and Start Controller done.
Any keys that are not present when the new controller is installed will be disqualified and will not work in the future.
Michael


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Don't forget to bring all your keys with you *IF* you take the car to the dealer to have the adaptation of the new Access and Start Controller done.


I'm not giving up yet.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Here is what I have figured out so far-
When we were trying to find the part, the parts guy @ 1st VW parts said it was on 'global backorder' and said he would see what he could do and get back to us...(I'm not the one that spoke with him or ordered it).
He called us back and said that he found one at another dealer and would have them ship it to him and then him to us.
The part # of the failed module is 3D0909137EX01C
The part # of the new module is 3D0909137GX01C
He told us this didn't matter and it was the new part #.
In all my experiences with 1st VW parts website if you put in an old part# and it subs..it does it automatically. This is not the case with these part #s.. if you put them both in, they come up as both still available and slightly different prices.
Here is where things get *really* interesting...
In looking closer at the label on the new module today I noticed it has a VIN printed on it from a different car. 








I am wondering if you need to order these modules by VIN just like you can order the key blade precut via VIN. My feeling is that this 'new' module is already locked to another Phaeton and without that cars SKC it is useless to me.
Notice the date on that tag- April 6th 09.
I took that VIN and ran a carfax on it.
WVWAF93DX58000330 
2005 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON 4.2
03/01/2007 Door lock replaced
02/19/2008 Door locks checked
03/11/2009 Door locks checked

It is not a far stretch to imagine that whoever this other car belongs to has had repeated issues with the doors and the dealer in frustration tried a new Kessy module (and therefore it is coded to THAT car)...then if that didn't fix the problem they removed the part and threw it on their shelf until we came along and they were able to offload it onto 1st Vw Parts and they unto us.
The dealer is-
Pacific VW
Hawthorne, CA
and I will be giving both them and 1st Vw Parts a call tomorrow!!

-Josh


----------



## mhoepfin (Dec 20, 2007)

Great detective work, Josh! I admire your tenacity..


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (mhoepfin)*

Confirmed-
The Kessy must be ordered via VIN. 
Suprising that the part we were given went through 2 dealers (one of which had ordered it for another cust by VIN)...and neither of them gave a 2nd thought to passing of what is essentially a useless part. 
(unless I had access to the 05 Phaeton it was matched to for about oh..a minute.. )








Now we wait...as at this point I have no idea how long it will take to get the correct part now..


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
This is just as much for the project of fixing the car and getting it running as it is about the car itself.. an adventure it will be. Honestly the car deserves more then its fate would be otherwise were we not to step in and save it. (junkyard or parted out).


I've been following this thread since it started. Was hoping you would be driving it by now.








What a project! This car is far too complex for my level of mechanical skills but it's interesting to read about the challenges you're coming across. But what other options are there with a car like this. Looks too good to just junk or part out.
I've often wondered what happens to some of these old luxury cars (Mercedes, BMW, Audi) as they can get quite expensive to maintain. I'm sure we'll probably see more of these projects with the Phaetons in the future as they're now getting older too. Car that don't run but aren't ready for the junk yard either.


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## NewUnit16 (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (papa_vw)*

would you mind if i asked how much you got the car for?


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Scotty, hook me up to Ann Arbor's computer!*

Great thread.
Now here's a question: by law, a manufacturer needs only provide parts and service for 10 years. It seems unless you have very specific knowledge, lost keys or damaged kessys will require _hooking up to a computer in Ann Arbor_. It also seems you may have to order parts where chips come _ burned to you car's VIN_?
I see how older cars are now maintained decades later via cannibalization, fabrication of pieces, etc., but it just looks like Phaetons are all destined to be crushed in just a few short years?
Especially in the new auto industry environment, does anyone else have a hard time visualizing VW maintaining someone around in Ann Arbor who can deal with utterly obsolete chips and communications protocols by 2020 for a car of which 3,000 copies were sold?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Scotty, hook me up to Ann Arbor's computer! (Itzmann)*

Vwoa HQ is in VA now, no longer Mi.


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_it just looks like ALL CARS are all destined to be crushed in just a few short years? 


Between the problem of electronic parts and the new legislation "cash for clunkers".. soon old cars will be a thing of the past. Too bad the average new car loan is now approaching 8 years!!


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Scotty, hook me up to Ann Arbor's computer! (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Too bad the average new car loan is now approaching 8 years!!

That is ridiculous. In 2003 I bought a new Ford Thunderbird and financed it for 6 years (72 payments). I did it to keep the payment a bit more manageable at the time but I still ended up paying off the car in a little under 5 years. I would never get a car loan that long again. My philosophy now is if I can't afford to pay it off in 5 years or less, I probably can't afford it.
Presently my wife and I have 4 vehicles in our fleet:
2001 Mercedes SLK320
2003 Ford Thunderbird
2004 Volkswagen Passat GLX
2005 Ford Thunderbird
They may not be new, but at least they're paid for.


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Scotty, hook me up to Ann Arbor's computer! (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_I see how older cars are now maintained decades later via cannibalization, fabrication of pieces, etc., but it just looks like Phaetons are all destined to be crushed in just a few short years?


That's the risk I see with a lot of these complex European cars including the Phaeton. Will it just become too costly to maintain and repair with these highly technical electronic parts. Especially here in the US where so few were sold over it's 3 year run.


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## mhoepfin (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: Scotty, hook me up to Ann Arbor's computer! (papa_vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *papa_vw* »_
That's the risk I see with a lot of these complex European cars including the Phaeton. Will it just become too costly to maintain and repair with these highly technical electronic parts. Especially here in the US where so few were sold over it's 3 year run.

Another reason not to own a Phaeton out of warranty.


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## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
Here is what I have figured out so far-
When we were trying to find the part, the parts guy @ 1st VW parts said it was on 'global backorder' and said he would see what he could do and get back to us...(I'm not the one that spoke with him or ordered it).
He called us back and said that he found one at another dealer and would have them ship it to him and then him to us.
The part # of the failed module is 3D0909137EX01C
The part # of the new module is 3D0909137GX01C
He told us this didn't matter and it was the new part #.
In all my experiences with 1st VW parts website if you put in an old part# and it subs..it does it automatically. This is not the case with these part #s.. if you put them both in, they come up as both still available and slightly different prices.
Here is where things get *really* interesting...
In looking closer at the label on the new module today I noticed it has a VIN printed on it from a different car. 
[image]
I am wondering if you need to order these modules by VIN just like you can order the key blade precut via VIN. My feeling is that this 'new' module is already locked to another Phaeton and without that cars SKC it is useless to me.
Notice the date on that tag- April 6th 09.
I took that VIN and ran a carfax on it.
WVWAF93DX58000330 
2005 VOLKSWAGEN PHAETON 4.2
03/01/2007 Door lock replaced
02/19/2008 Door locks checked
03/11/2009 Door locks checked

It is not a far stretch to imagine that whoever this other car belongs to has had repeated issues with the doors and the dealer in frustration tried a new Kessy module (and therefore it is coded to THAT car)...then if that didn't fix the problem they removed the part and threw it on their shelf until we came along and they were able to offload it onto 1st Vw Parts and they unto us.
The dealer is-
Pacific VW
Hawthorne, CA
and I will be giving both them and 1st Vw Parts a call tomorrow!!

-Josh


A little info for ya. First, that part # actually does supercede. It's actually listed as interchangeable with these 3:
3D0909137CX008
CONTR.UNIT
1

3D0909137AX02W
CONTR.UNIT
1

3D0909137GX01C
CONTR.UNIT
1

So, it's a linear supercession, not so much a "this" part replaces "that" part. Any of the above can be programmed for your car (from the manufacturer).

Also, not that it matters really, but carfax's listed service history there is totally inaccurate. i.e.- the 2-19-08 service it lists as a door lock problem, was just a 20K service. The 3-11-09 service, actually got a 7xx series "mechanism" replaced ($900 part, required removal of exhaust and shifter assembly). I don't have my etka handy, so can't determine exactly what that was. (3D0713023T if you have etka and want to have a look-see). Irrelevant all the same, I still think your guess about it is spot on.

Not sure why, but that vin is also currently listed as being owned by VWoA. 
However, you are correct, that module must be ordered by vin#. Dealer cost $400, retail $600.

More food for thought.

_Quote »_ Caution
If the sequence is not followed, the pyrotechnic battery isolation system switch may trigger, which may damage electrical components in the vehicle. 
Observe notes for threaded connections of battery terminals. 

Proper sequence being left side first, and always positive cable first. 
Good luck, definitely an interesting project you have here


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (veedubtek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubtek* »_
Proper sequence being left side first, and always positive cable first. 
Good luck, definitely an interesting project you have here










Thanks!!
The new Kessy should be here TOMORROW!!!









The battery sequence listed above.. is that for connecting or disconnecting.. as the procedure should be reversed for one vs the other, no?


----------



## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
Thanks!!
The new Kessy should be here TOMORROW!!!









The battery sequence listed above.. is that for connecting or disconnecting.. as the procedure should be reversed for one vs the other, no?



That is for connecting. I figured you had it disconnected already







Left of course being drivers side. (Left pos, Left neg, Right pos, Right neg). Disconnecting is the exact opposite.
GL!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (veedubtek)*

Danke http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

Home from work...parts here, time to grab a beer and head to the garage. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 357Sig (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

You have to know that there is a good number of us out here rooting (and praying) for you!
Your adventure is really getting exciting....I can't wait to see what your first impressions of the Phaeton are when it roars to life!


_Modified by 357Sig at 7:20 PM 6-24-2009_


----------



## skyline513 (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (357Sig)*

Looks like a pretty ambitious build! Good luck on getting everything up and running http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vwtechr32 (Apr 9, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_Home from work...parts here, time to grab a beer and head to the garage. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 









Hmm hard at work on the yard


----------



## MoreA4 (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (vwtechr32)*

Okay, the yard work has to be finished! The Holiday weekened is over,,,any updates?
Thanks,
Michael


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (MoreA4)*

Curious minds wondering thruout Phaeton land!


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Kcmover)*

Hi guys..
Sorry for the delay in the update..there is a lot going on lately besides the car.
Where we are at right now- the car is alive and running, even took it for a quick test drive up and down my road...currently awaiting registration/plates, insurance then new tires/brakes/timing belt/waterpump, etc. Had a friend help me code the Kessy & Key and everything came to life (almost)..
Once we got the car fired up we scanned it to find out why it was still sitting on it's belly and wouldn't raise. We found the only suspension sensor readings we had were from the rear of the car, nothing from either front. Upon checking the sensors themselves, we found both front were unplugged for some reason. Plugged then back in and we had readings from all 4 corners.
At that point we tried to raise the car again and the front went up but the back stayed slammed. We scratched our heads as we checked various readings and tested componets.. no error codes were showing up either. Soo again modern technology fails us and we resort to crawling under the car with flashlights and looking around.
What we discovered was that the driver rear sensor rod (plastic) was broken in half. Even though the sensor was giving the car a reading, the # would never change as it was no longer connected to the control arm. My friend thought that shouldn't stop the car from raising but after all the weird things I have seen this car do when it's computers get funky..I said anything was possible- lets try to fix it. 
I pieced the to halves back together and gobbed some quick setting epoxy on them. Waited about 10 minutes for it to harden then tried to adjust the suspension settings again- VOILA fixed. The car now raises and lowers as it should and sits properly. 
Really outside of some cosmetic pieces (rusty trim pieces under doors and a missing knob for mirrors folding) the only thing left to address at this point is the glove box will not open. I was hoping that once the car was alive and responsive that it would open but alas no. The right hand side of the glovebox door is bent outwards where apparently someone in the past has tried to pull it open. 
Does anyone have any ideas on how to get it open so it can be fixed??

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







-Josh


----------



## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

its probably locked shut, just break it open and put a new used one on.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_...the only thing left to address at this point is the glove box will not open.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to get it open so it can be fixed??

Hi Josh:
Congratulations on getting the car running - I was getting a bit worried. Compliments also on your troubleshooting of the suspension problem - great troubleshooting.
Just a tip for you about those suspension level sensor plastic arms - it is possible to install the arm 'backwards' (meaning, it articulates in the wrong direction), and if this is done, the car won't sit right. Below is a picture of my car on the alignment rack, looking forward from the aft end of the car. Note that the two-piece sensor arm (only the assembly on the right side is really visible in this photo) appears to articulate inwards, toward the middle of the car.
As for your glovebox, have a look at this post, it might contain the answer: Glove Box lock problems - Valet Key vs. Normal Key
Enjoy...
Michael


----------



## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PanEuropean)*

Hi Josh,
Congrats. That must be a real feeling of accomplishment. This has been a great thread to follow. Oh, post some more pictures please.
Regards,
Brent


----------



## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

This has to be one of the best threads I've seen on this forum in some time.

As these cars continue age, I'm hoping there will be more DIY mentality evolving here when it comes to maintaining these cars.
Keep up the good work and please keep us abreast of your progress.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Auzivision)*

Hi Kurt.
Abreast of progress- 
The rusty trim pieces under the doors have been replaced with the new style non-metal ones.
The switch that controls the mirrors has been replaced since it was missing its knob. We replaced the missing flashlight while we were at it.
4 new tires were dropped off today. I will be removing the wheels and bringing them to a local tire shop to be mounted.
The car is insured, just waiting on plates (out of state registration).
Next up is a brake job all around which I will be doing myself once parts arrive.
Then due to a short time frame before a roadtrip and other pending projects the car will be off to a shop to have a friend do a timing belt job along with all the belts, water pump, sparkplugs, etc.
The car will then be detailed to bring it back to it's former glory..
And then lastly, depending on how that all goes before our trip...the car may get a supercharger installed.









-Josh


----------



## 357Sig (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

I can't wait to see your before and after experience with the supercharger!!


----------



## Jagvar (Jan 6, 2009)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

I've loved reading about your saga. We can expect some photos once she's all fixed and polished, right?
Congrats, Josh!


----------



## paddyh (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: (Jagvar)*

I personally have to wonder how a car as awesome as the Phaeton got into this bad a shape in the first place. The amount of work to get it back running has been incredible, and fun to read.
Patrick


----------



## prishtina (Jul 14, 2009)

*Re: (paddyh)*

hello everyone , i have personally learmed a lot on this thread. i had myself just bought a stolen recovered 2004 phaeton, and i just received 2 days ago , its sitting a vw dealer for now , got a new key, the car is dead at the moment , i couldnt open the trunk. glove box is broken , the new key that i had ordered came , the key goes in and out with no problams , but it doesnt do anything , looking at what you had to go thru , i put 6000 dollars aside , to hopefully bring my phaeton to life , it looks like thou either the radiator was leaking badly since there was a lot of antifreeze bottles in the car. and itr looks messy so does the front bottom part of the bumper. 
lots of work ahead of me for sure.....


----------



## NewUnit16 (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (PowerDubs)*

anything new come down the pipe on this one?


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Help with project Phaeton!- Lets start with fusebox location? (NewUnit16)*

It is funny that you ask.. yes, a LOT more stuff is about to happen.
We are all leaving next week for a roadtrip/vacation. We had wanted to take the Phaeton and stretch her legs. That won't be happening now.
As I had mentioned above we had decided due to work, family obligations and repairs I had to do on other cars that we would drop it off at a shop and have them take care of the timing belt job and some other minor stuff. I won't go into detail, but after receiving an absurd quote for the requested work we said thanks but no thanks and picked the car back up.
So at this point we are not going to take the car on the trip and the timing belt job and other repairs will be carried out by us in my garage as originally intended.. starting today. (hence the 'funny you would ask' part)

I'll try and update later on tonight. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## veedubtek (Feb 1, 2003)

*FV-QR*

I actually just did this job on an A8L this week. If you've done a V6 Passat timing belt, this is a walk in the park, seriously. It is alot easier IMO. I'd imagine you are already planning on it, but make sure you do the pump, and more importantly the thermostat, while you are in there. The thermostat is problematic on these, and you don't wanna have to tear all the way into it again later for a $40 part.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (veedubtek)*

Ok guys.. tonight's minor update-
Put the Phaeton back up on my lift and changed out the front brake pads & rotors.
(thanks to Tony for bringing his piston retracting tool..beats the hell out of a C-clamp.)
We also swapped out the rear level sensor to replace the one I had epoxied as a temporary fix.
I removed the rear calipers and carriers, but can't get the first rear rotor off (no matter how much _motivation_ I give it). So I doused it liberally with penetrating spray and will let it sit and soak. At that point I called it a night.

















To give you an idea of the absurd prices the dealer quoted us for work.. they told us they had no problems with us bringing our own parts as we had already purchased a few things like the brake parts & sensor but were going to have them order the timing belt, water pump, tune-up parts.
To install the F/R rotors & pads we supplied and flush/bleed the brakes they quoted us $691.95
To install the rear level sensor they quoted $277 (1 bolt, 2 nuts and a plug..5 minute job)

Is anyone else laughing?? I'm 80% done with the job and saved $968.95 + 67.83 tax= $1036.78 in labor just on this job alone.
To purchase and install the 8 new spark-plugs they quoted $351!!! 
Yea..sure..
That's going to take me all of 1/2 hour and $88 for the Bosch plugs..(NGK can be had for $55)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








-Josh


----------



## NewUnit16 (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

just think though. by not paying the dealer you are depriving the mechanics of the "dude, check this phaeton out" conversations they would be having.
expensive cards are expensive to maintain. i read an article on japlonik a few days ago about the porsche's 8000$ 100k mile maintenance. basically a full inspection, oh and they would replace your tranny fluid and air filter for an "extra" charge.
porsche or fiat, a wheel bearing is a ****ing wheel bearing, IMO.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (NewUnit16)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NewUnit16* »_a wheel bearing is a ****ing wheel bearing, IMO.

Is the censor broken??









Speaking of wheel bearing, it appears that the noise I was hearing from the rear in the few times and miles that the car has been driven was not just rusted/shot brakes. In my 2nd attempt efforts to remove the rear rotor I noticed it has play in it although it won't budge. Once I realized why that was, I gave the rotor a spin back and forth with my hand and cringed when I heard/felt a grinding noise since there was no longer a caliper/pads on it. (suprise Dennis!!







)
In a weird sort of way that solves the stuck rotor issue as I can just leave it seized to the failed hub/bearing when I removed it for replacement. I would have went ahead and have done that but unfortunately in THIS post it is claimed the large allen socket is a 17mm which we purchased but I discovered much to my dismay that the bolt must be an 18mm instead. (suprise #2







)


----------



## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away!! Since we are still well below our original budget







I need the part number so I can order. Is this a situation where you might as well replace both


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (madreg98)*

Part #- 3D0498607
It is the same for all 4 corners, so it is your call if you want to do just this 1 for now and wait until any of the others make noise.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

And just for fun everybody here is a teaser-
2 identical cars, both automatics with the 4.2 V8..one normal and one with the supercharger we are putting on the phaeton.
(not phaetons, but same engine)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS4LixygIdU


----------



## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

Josh -
So, my buddy was doing a supercharger this past weekend and it reminded me of you. He was doing an intercooled version and I looked at the PES website. Are you guys planning on doing stage 1 or stage 2? Looks like a good increase in HP and some torque!
Nate


----------



## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (ruddyone)*

We have talked with the PES guys and if we go forward (and it looks very positive, so far) we will go stage 2







. We might even try to convince them to put on a slightly smaller pully and go a little higher







. Stay tuned http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .


----------



## 04phaeton (Feb 19, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (madreg98)*

I'm very interested in seeing how it goes with the supercharger - as I may do one as well down the road.
Are there any issues with it? Can it damage or shorten the life of the engine?


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (04phaeton)*


_Quote, originally posted by *04phaeton* »_Can it damage or shorten the life of the engine?

Does a bear defaecate in the woods?
Michael


----------



## Aren Jay (Jun 9, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (04phaeton)*

You might want to see if the transmission can handle the extra power of the SC or if the transmission needs to be replaced with one that can handle the extra power. Engines usually have more room for extra power.


_Modified by Aren Jay at 8:42 PM 9-9-2009_


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Does a bear defaecate in the woods?


Mike,

I'm pretty sure that PES would not care for you casting an ill light on their product as some people put trust into your statements based purely upon your role/position as a moderator even if untrue. "With great power, comes great responsibility" 
The stage 2 blower is only 7-8psi and uses an air/water inter-cooler. That is *EXTREMELY* mild as far as forced induction systems go. I'd bet money that one of these kits could be installed on a brand new Phaeton and never have a single engine issue over the _entire_ life of the vehicle. 

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

_Quote, originally posted by *ruddyone* »_Looks like a good increase in HP and some torque!


As for the stage2 power gains PES hasn't posted dyno charts on their website, but they posted a video of an Audi S4 stg2 (also a 4.2 V8) and at the end of the video they showed the chart. I took a screenshot of it. The results look stout (sorry it is so fuzzy)








VW engines are extremely overbuilt and can handle much higher boost levels with no issues as long as they are tuned correctly. (and no idiots running 87 octane in them).
There should be no problem upping the boost levels further for substantially more power. The steps are simple and look something like this-
#1 With the factory 11:1CR one of the first things I would do is drop it down to be more pressure friendly. (doubling up the head gaskets on the 4.2 brings it to approx 9:1- perfect)
#2 smaller pulley on the charger (will have to check the maps to see where the efficiency is for this blower, but I'd imagine 10-12psi would be quite doable)
#3 throw on adjustable fuel pressure regulators & re tune (worst case scenario would be larger injectors and fuel pump)
Getting more power is very easy and cheap. Much more involved is the work (and money) that would need to be put into the trans at high power levels. I am familiar with a high end trans shop that can handle the job. As fate would have it, they are local enough to drive to also. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









At this point though, we are focusing on getting the STG2 on and running. If the timing works out, I might even get Dennis to take it out to the fall Show & Go. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_I'm pretty sure that PES would not care for you casting an ill light on their product...

The question was not "*Will *it", the question was "*Can* it".
Combine an aftermarket turbocharger with an engine build spec that is not intended to accept a turbocharger, a second or third-hand car with an unknown pedigree, and an installation by do-it-yourselfers carried out under a shade tree... _Could _that shorten engine life? You bet it _could_. Will it? I don't know, no-one asked that queston.
Michael


----------



## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Aren Jay)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Aren Jay* »_You might want to see if the transmission can handle the extra power of the SC or if the transmission needs to be replaced with one that can handle the extra power. Engines usually have more room for extra power.

_Modified by Aren Jay at 8:42 PM 9-9-2009_

If I am not mistaken, the V8 Phaetons share the transmission with the V6TDI, which puts out 500NMm worth of torque, so looking at the graph, there is room for more until the 600Nm limit of the 6hp26 box is reached...
rgds
Johan


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Realist42)*

Is it a 6HP26 that is used in the V8 Phaeton, or a 6HP31? I think it may be a 6HP31.
Michael


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Combine an aftermarket turbocharger with an engine build spec that is not intended to accept a turbocharger, a second or third-hand car with an unknown pedigree, and an installation by do-it-yourselfers carried out under a shade tree... 

Again you are speculating with no real basis for your fear mongering.
As stated above, the VAG engines are all overbuilt so engine spec is not an issue. The 4.2 V8 came from the factory in other models with twin turbos (Audi RS6)
The car being 2nd or 3rd hand with 'unknown pedigree' could certainly be an issue but an engine failure due to owner neglect can not be blamed on the blower itself by any means...blame the owner for not changing the oil.

As for the installation by 'do it yourselfers under a shade tree'...again any errors by _any_ installers would not be any fault of the charger itself. You might as well go into a post about changing the oil on a Phaeton and say it could damage the engine!!
Just because YOU are afraid to work on your own car doesn't mean others are lacking in skills. Besides, I'm not under a shade tree..there is a reason I have a lift in my garage. 

I suggest you read your own advice-
"OK, listen up everyone:
We have a rule in this forum (the Phaeton forum): If you don't like something, don't post to the thread. 
Roberto has gone to a lot of work to carry out his modifications and to carefully document the process for all of us. If you are not interested in this type of modification, then, just don't post to this thread. Use the forward or backward button on your browser to go somewhere else.
Understood???"


----------



## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
...Just because YOU are afraid to work on your own car doesn't mean others are lacking in skills.... 



If you will put your massive and over-sensitive ego aside for a moment, and spend a little time searching the Phaeton forum, you will discover two irrefutable facts.
1) There is no one here who has performed more work on his own Phaeton than Michael, and that includes you. 
2) The Phaeton forum would be little else than a morass of unanswered questions and unhappy Phaeton owners, if it weren't for the incredibly detailed and thoughtful analysis and enormous technical knowledge base that has been accumulated here, primarily by and because of Michael. In fact, in reading through this admittedly fascinating thread, you yourself have benefitted from his input several times.
I believe a little humility would serve you well.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (remrem)*

This has nothing to do with ego. I am well aware of what Mike has done on his car, and I am also well aware of his paranoia.
From the horses mouth- 

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Personally, I'm scared to do any work myself on systems that directly affect safety (engine, wheels, driveline, airbags) - although I don't hesitate to tear the whole inside of the car apart to work on convenience systems, I won't even change my own oil, I always take the car to the dealer to have that done.
I have been known to change a tire from time to time - but then I go to the VW dealer to get them to set the correct torque on the wheel bolts, and to make sure everything else is in order.

I may not have extensively torn apart the Phaeton (yet).. but for example I've taken a Jetta 1.8 8v 3-speed automatic with drum brakes and swapped an entire drivetrain to make it a 2.0 16v with a 5-speed manual transmission including all wheel disk and factory ABS.

Besides that however, you are missing the point. PES is looking to expand the supercharger into the Phaeton market and this will be the first car. 
For a moderator to come into a post and wantonly answer a question about possible damage to the engine with a comment like "Does a bear **** in the woods" is blatantly irresponsible and disrespectful by a person in his position.

When I brought this viewpoint to his attention (in case he honestly did not realize that his comment could be unintentionally harmful) he not only failed to re-mediate the issue but he sidestepped any factual conversation about the claims and proceeded to throw out things such as do it yourself-er under a shade tree. Whether you realize it or not he was making a direct jab at me.
I'll eat the humble pie when he admits his comment was unfounded and did not contribute anything positive to the thread. He shouldn't have made it and had it been someone else he would have looked upon it as inflammatory.


----------



## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Is it a 6HP26 that is used in the V8 Phaeton, or a 6HP31? I think it may be a 6HP31.
Michael

I would not profess to be an expert on the subject, but I am not sure there ever was a 6HP31, there is a 6HP32, but that one is rated for 1000Nm, and feels like over kill to me... it is also a generation later than gear box than went in the Ph. Just looking at the spec, the 6HP26 would be more than enough or I am reading it wrong?
Regards,
Johan


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Realist42)*

Hi Johann:
I think that the -26 would be more than sufficient too. What prompted me to ask the question is that I have two fairly detailed technical descriptions of the 6HP series of transmissions ( I picked these documents up in Saarbrucken when I was there researching the 5HP torque converter seal issue), and they seem to imply that the V8 Phaeton has the -31 version installed. 
But, I am reluctant to post a spec sheet for the -31 until we are sure about what transmission the car has in it. I can confirm the type of transmission installed in the W12 powered car, because I have one, and I can look at the transmission data plate, but I have no way of confirming what kind of transmission is installed in the V8 powered Phaetons.
Michael


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (PanEuropean)*

Received the timing belt parts today along with the new wheel bearing.
We ordered the 'enhanced' kit from Blauparts as well as a new serp belt tensioner.
•1 Timing Belt
•3 Timing Belt Tensioners / Idlers 
•1 Timing Belt Tensioner Damper 
•1 Heavy Duty Water Pump w/ Gasket
•1 Front Crank Seal
•2 Camshaft Seals 
•6 Liters Pentosin G12 PINK Antifreeze 
•8 New Allen Bolts for Lower Crankshaft Pulley
•1 Serpentine Belt 
•1 Thermostat With O-Ring 
+ 1 serp belt tensioner and a wheel bearing w/ hardware.


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*

Hi PowerDubs.
What you are doing is great, as it shows that any mechanically oriented owner can maintain his own car, up to changing the timing belt.
While you have an intimate access to your V8, could you please check out exactly the type of transmission that is on it (find the label wherever it is, and report what you find on it ?)
Thanks,
P.


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Zaphh)*

I've received a few IM's about the large hex that needs to be removed for the wheelbearing so I snapped a couple pics with my phone.
Here is the 17mm aquired from NAPA in the new replacement bolt-








And you can see here it is too small-


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Zaphh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zaphh* »_While you have an intimate access to your V8, could you please check out exactly the type of transmission that is on it (find the label wherever it is, and report what you find on it ?)


Wow.. I'm not sure what to make of this. Since the car was already up on the lift I went underneath and snapped a pic.
Wikipedia and everything else I've read said the car should come with a 6HP26A (600nm rating)
The trans in this car is only an 6HP19 (400nm rating)...which is only 295ft/lbs MAX...and the car's engine stock is rated at 316ft/lbs if I am not mistaken.
WTF








This could very well scrap the supercharger plans unless we can magically source a different trans somewhere


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## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_
Wow.. I'm not sure what to make of this. Since the car was already up on the lift I went underneath and snapped a pic.
Wikipedia and everything else I've read said the car should come with a 6HP26A (600nm rating)
The trans in this car is only an 6HP19 (400nm rating)...which is only 295ft/lbs MAX...and the car's engine stock is rated at 316ft/lbs if I am not mistaken.
WTF
This could very well scrap the supercharger plans unless we can magically source a different trans somewhere









...and what is also odd that none of the 'other' listed uses of the 6HP19 are 4WD








Maybe Michael can chime in on this?
Regards
Johan


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Well, ZF certainly list it here as one of the possible transmissions on the Phaeton:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/e....html
The HP6-19A appears to be a Torsen AWD transmission:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/m...g.pdf



_Modified by Prince Ludwig at 1:07 AM 9-18-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Realist42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Realist42* »_Maybe Michael can chime in on this?

I chimed in on the previous page. Someone else chimed in suggesting that a 17mm socket was the right size for a bolt - turned out it was an 18mm - and they haven't heard the end of that one yet.
I'll just watch the antics for a while, thanks.
Michael


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## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_Well, ZF certainly list it here as one of the possible transmissions on the Phaeton:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/e....html
The HP6-19A appears to be a Torsen AWD transmission:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/m...g.pdf


So I stand corrected...
Regards,
Johan


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Someone else chimed in suggesting that a 17mm socket was the right size for a bolt - turned out it was an 18mm - and they haven't heard the end of that one yet.


Funny, it is the person that 'suggested' it was a 17mm that PMd me asking me to go check and verify. That is hardly a case of 'not heard the end of it'. Just clearing up a mistake. 

_Quote, originally posted by *KCPhaetonTech:* »_ 11:27 PM 9-15-2009) Have you checked your replacement wheel bearings' allen bolt size? I checked my personal vehicle (04 phaeton) and the front allen bolts were 17mm, I am wondering now if they were an aftermarket supplier. 

(9:25 AM 9-16-2009) PowerDubs: I'll check tonight.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_Well, ZF certainly list it here as one of the possible transmissions on the Phaeton:
http://www.zf.com/na/content/e....html



Thanks for the link. Funny they don't even list the 26 like other sources do..just the 19 and 32.
I'd *really* like to have the 32 as that is rated for 750nm from this chart-


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## hatchback_guy (Sep 30, 2008)

just a quick heads up, im pretty sure pheaton axle bolts have a 19mm head, or atleast the fronts...


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (hatchback_guy)*

Yes, it is 19mm. I bought one today and figured if it turned out to be 18mm I would just hit it with the grinder.








I am headed to the garage now to swap the wheel bearing and finish up the brakes.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 357Sig (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: (PowerDubs)*

Is there any way to know which transmission a Phaeton has in it without actually looking at the tag on the transmission?
For example, does the build sticker tell the precise model within the ZF 6HP range, or would a VAG COM scan return the specific type?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (357Sig)*

There is a post in the FAQ that contains all sorts of VAG-COM scans from various Phaetons, perhaps have a look at the results and see if you can draw any conclusions. Personally, I think the scans will only have information about the controller, not the whole transmission, but you never know.
Michael


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Anything new? How does the car drive?


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## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: (GS340)*

Sorry about that. Lot's going on so not a lot of time to post. Am driving car and it is an experience with a lot of soul. Will post more details within the next two weeks.
Dennis


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: (madreg98)*

What a great thread, but what happened?


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (madreg98)*

Gee Dennis, you live about 5 miles from me in Malvern.


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## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: (Paldi)*

I noticed that a little while ago. Maybe when the car is where I want it we can get together and compare.
Dennis


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## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

*Re: (iberkoko)*

Still here. Just got tied up in my job, travel and family. Car was in NJ at my "son-in-law", about 2 hours away from my house. Have not been able to get there as often as I wanted to. Major items are completed and I have been driving it for about three weeks. Will put together a long narrative with pictures in the next two weeks. Gave my wife the E320







This weekend drove it back to NJ to do the timing belt with kit from Blauparts. Instead of service position decided to remove front of car since wanted to replace a couple of rusting pipes in the cooling system, and some noisy pulleys. We got the front off and determined that we needed two more pulleys that didn't come with the kit. Also that there was some major noise from the alternator







. So, currently the car is sitting on the lift with the timing belt installed but not the serpentene (sp) belt waiting for part that will be ordered on Monday. Yes we are ordering a rebuilt alternator. More to come. Hope everyone has a great holiday season!!
Dennis


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## Reflect (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: (madreg98)*

happy holidays to you too. look forward to see ur work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Larjmammal (Oct 26, 2020)

Where's the final chapter, please?


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Wow... never thought this thread would pop back up.

Final chapter?

Dennis had this Phaeton for several happy years and miles.

Not long after bringing this Phaeton back to life for him- I bought my own Phaeton- a 2005 V8 4-seater.

Dennis then bought a 2005 W12 5-seater, sold this ‘04 V8.

I bought myself an ‘06 W12 4-seater, and for a few years had the ‘05 V8 4-seater as well.

I eventually sold my ‘05 but still own the ‘06.

Dennis drove his W12 for a few years- then bought a Bentley W12 and sold his Phaeton.

He still has the Bentley. He also put a lift in his garage several years ago after seeing how useful they are when using mine.

The end.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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