# audi 7a



## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

I recently bought an 90 audi coupe quattro. Being the speed freek I am I wanna upgrade the engine for more power. I know a ****uar thing is to swap in a 3b but Ive noticed there arnt many around. However i have seen quite a few n/a 20v's for cheap. If i were to pick one up could this be a good engine to turbo?
obviously the stock conponents wont be as strong so if I went this way i would build the internals, lower compression, etc. plus it has a little more displacement than the turbos. I know a custom exhaust manifold would have to be fabed up but other than that (and engine management)should it work?or is this too much of a headache to mess with and i should just swap in the 3B?


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## Haiku Master (May 29, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

If you want to mess around with the 20v N/A, you can just use the 20vt manifolds; you don't HAVE to fab if you don't want to. Lowering the compression is a good idea. The biggest problem is the stock fuel system. The Hitachi MPI doesn't know anything about boost and is already operating at a pretty high duty cycle. There are other EFI systems you can use out there if you are ready to lay down some dough. 
I have this crazy idea that it is possible to build a 20vt from a 7A for $3000 but its got lots of top secret (and generally un-kosher) plans. Perhaps that should be my next project.


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (Haiku Master)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Haiku Master* »_If you want to mess around with the 20v N/A, you can just use the 20vt manifolds; you don't HAVE to fab if you don't want to. 


really? I heard that the 20vt manifolds wouldnt bolt up to the n/a head. not sure why really cause it should match. if so that would make it even easier. 
I thought about going to full standalone to take care of engine management. 
Im really considering going this route. I havent seen this done yet, which makes me wanna do it more


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## Haiku Master (May 29, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

I'm convinced that if you don't tell them, they will never know the difference







Edit - forgot to mention that the 20vt exhaust manifold has more holes than the 20v N/A head has studs but they all line up, and the 20v head has bosses where the additional studs go. The internal differences include slightly different valves, more cooling passages around the chamber, and a larger high-flow water manifold on the turbo head)
It has been done before, I do know that. I guess it's cool to be different, but this isn't THAT different and you might find that money is better spent on a 10vt (which is easy to modify to 225hp and very inexpensive) or 20vt (which comes from the box ready-to-go for around $3000ish)


_Modified by Haiku Master at 9:15 AM 12-4-2003_


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## Toxcheap (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (Haiku Master)*

I talk to a few people who had experience turbo chargin the 7A. You can go 6psi and the factory ecu would compensate. 8psi with a big intercooler and a chip designed for more fuel. I think this would be the cheap route to quick power. 6psi would get you close to 220hp. In fact factory compression ratio and a k24 should give you crazy turbo response. The k24 responses well with my 7.8 to 1 image what it would like with a 10+ to 1 ratio! Well I got the factory S4 parts laying around if anyone's interested.


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## Haiku Master (May 29, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (Toxcheap)*

I'm not so sure one would want to couple a small inefficient turbo with high compression ratio. It just seems too prone to knock, especially with the Hitachi MPI system (which I find to be quirky and unreliable, not good on a turbo car). 
Not saying it can't be done, just not how I'd do it


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## Toxcheap (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (Haiku Master)*

Well you do know that the K24 comes on the S4 which has a 9.3:1 ratio. And I think a bigger turbo would be a waste when your running in the 6-8psi range. Plus the k24 still has room to grow. I'm getting 300 out of it on a CIS 5000TQ. 
This project would go the same as any other. I would use the biggest core I could fit and up the fuel pressure a bit. I don't remember off hand if the pressure reg. on the fuel rail has a vaccum port or not. If it doesn't I'd steal one off a UrS4 or A4 so you could have the added pressure under boost. Start small and build from there. You could probably get 45-60hp for under a grand and have the potential to go to 300 with better management and lower compression.


_Modified by Toxcheap at 11:43 AM 12-4-2003_


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (Haiku Master)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Haiku Master* »_The internal differences include slightly different valves, more cooling passages around the chamber, and a larger high-flow water manifold on the turbo head)
It has been done before, I do know that. I guess it's cool to be different, but this isn't THAT different and you might find that money is better spent on a 10vt (which is easy to modify to 225hp and very inexpensive) or 20vt (which comes from the box ready-to-go for around $3000ish)

_Modified by Haiku Master at 9:15 AM 12-4-2003_

If i could get my hands on a 20vt head would it swap over to the n/a 20v? the main reason would be for the water manifold which would be quite benifical IMO. 
Ive thought about the 10vt also but I would rather go 20vt. I wanna have a 300hp daily driver with more power available for track days etc...
do you have a good source for a 20vt engine?


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (Toxcheap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Toxcheap* »_I talk to a few people who had experience turbo chargin the 7A. You can go 6psi and the factory ecu would compensate. 8psi with a big intercooler and a chip designed for more fuel. I think this would be the cheap route to quick power. 6psi would get you close to 220hp. In fact factory compression ratio and a k24 should give you crazy turbo response. The k24 responses well with my 7.8 to 1 image what it would like with a 10+ to 1 ratio! Well I got the factory S4 parts laying around if anyone's interested.









i definately wouldnt run more than 6psi without an intercooler. If i were to build the internals i would drop the compresion down to around 8.5:1 so it could handle alot of boost. it will have more lag but also allow me to run more boost without a higher octane fuel.
do you have any links to these turbocharged 7A's?


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## 84cgtturbo (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

http://www.geocities.com/audikramer/ 
The above link is to Alan Kramers site, he's built a NA 20V into a turbo'd monster! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Then stuffed it into a CGT (like mine!). Gotta love it! 
J. Lyons


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (84cgtturbo)*

awesome, thanks for the link


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02GTI1.8t* »_
If i could get my hands on a 20vt head would it swap over to the n/a 20v? the main reason would be for the water manifold which would be quite benifical IMO. 


does anyone know this?


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (Haiku Master)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Haiku Master* »_
I have this crazy idea that it is possible to build a 20vt from a 7A for $3000 but its got lots of top secret (and generally un-kosher) plans. Perhaps that should be my next project. 

I would love to hear your thoughts if they're not too top secret. Especially what you plan to do for engine management.


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## Toxcheap (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02GTI1.8t* »_
does anyone know this?

Yes it swaps over. But even used are still pretty pricey. I mean not many would want to break a part a full motor.


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## Haiku Master (May 29, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

Well, if I decide to have another project after this one...and I can find a willing donor for the 20v car (Emre?







) I'm not buying another car right now. I'll build one and tell you how I did it!


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (Haiku Master)*

lol thats cool, i understand. Ill just have to try some stuff for myself


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

I posted this in the classifieds, but nobody seemed interested-- under 2k for a 200tq 20vt: http://www.autotrader.com/find...t=742 
If I were on the other coast i would hop all over it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: audi 7a (nuugen)*

Quote**However i have seen quite a few n/a 20v's for cheap. If i were to pick one up could this be a good engine to turbo?Quote**
This is confusing...You already have the 7a 20v na motor, why would you need to pick one up..Unless, of course, you can't have any down-time on the car....For the record, I have snooped out no less than 3 91 200tq 20vt's this year,for 2,500 and less, and the general interest on this board was _minimal_







...WTF??? I have seen the 3B's and AAN motors sell for 3500-5K...And here we have an ENTIRE RUNNING VEHICLE for under 2k!!!! That is crazy!! I wanna do the conversion myself on a 20vt to 
the coupe, but I am still looking for one on the east cost...
I mean, the 7a is a decent lump to begin with, for an n/a motor, but WHY did Audi use the Hitachi system, I mean remind me PLEASE????????????????
You can do an O34-EFI system, and basically put your own turbo kit together, and search for pieces/parts, but I would hop on that unit for 1995.00.....


_Modified by nuugen at 12:03 AM 12-7-2003_


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (nuugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nuugen* »_Quote**However i have seen quite a few n/a 20v's for cheap. If i were to pick one up could this be a good engine to turbo?Quote**
This is confusing...You already have the 7a 20v na motor, why would you need to pick one up..Unless, of course, you can't have any down-time on the car....

_Modified by nuugen at 12:03 AM 12-7-2003_

yea i cant have much downtime. the main reason i would use the 7a instead of a 3b or aan is because of the cost. I could put a couple thousand in the 7a and have a fully built bottom end capeable of handling alot of boost for the same price as the other engine alone would cost. not to mention the eaiser swap and I wouldnt have to mess with the wiring computer stuff. 
at this time the projects more into the planning stages. It should start this summer when i get some money


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## Haiku Master (May 29, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02GTI1.8t* »_
yea i cant have much downtime. the main reason i would use the 7a instead of 3b or aan is because of the cost. I could put a couple thousand in the 7a


Good thinking to build the motor outside the car. Using the 7A as a base to build a motor is a good plan if you are going for very high power levels. The only real exception there is the head. The turbo head is much better for knock resistance.
However good building a 7A may sound, for a modest street machine well into the 3XX hp levels, the stock 20vt bottom end is plenty strong. Why do all that build-up work for the same end result?

_Quote, originally posted by *02GTI1.8t* »_
I could put a couple thousand in the 7a and have a fully built bottom end capeable of handling alot of boost for the same price as the other engine alone would cost. not to mention the eaiser swap and I wouldnt have to mess with the wiring computer stuff. 


Their is NO POINT in building a 7A for high boost levels if you don't plan on addressing the anemic Hitachi fuel system. Based on this and previous posts, it looks like you want to keep the stock fueling, which is alright (not what I'd call ideal) for the low boost levels suggested above. Why sink all that money into a built bottom end that will never see enough fuel to make 250hp? 
In order to make good power on a 20vt/CQ swap, you HAVE TO mess with the "wiring computer stuff". All that "built bottom end" stuff is worthless without proper fueling. 

_Quote, originally posted by *02GTI1.8t* »_
not to mention the eaiser swap

What makes the "built" 7A an easier swap? Aside from the wiring (which I addressed above) it is the same swap as a 3B/AAN or otherwise. The motors are the same dimensions, weight, use the same mounts, and will have the same issues running intercooler/intake plumbing. Also, the 3b/AAN will give you more mount options for the various accessories. Keeping A/C? you better get creative!
Don't let me stop you! I just want to make sure you think it through before you go out and start buying stuff! There's a lot to think about with either swap and its not as easy as just slapping together a bottom end and bolting on a turbo manifold.


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: audi 7a (Haiku Master)*

I agree with the Master...The Hitachi garbage would almost certainly have to be ditched (it is problematic even in its NA configuration, can't imagine how it would behave FI), and you would need to run standalone or source all the electronics, sensors, and ecu from a 20vt car, which most people are not going to want to separate from a good conversion package anyway...These 2 options are going to drive up the cost by a couple thousand, so the money you saved in the beginning will start to balance out...Not to mention all the little items that sre going to 100-dollar you to death








Find yourself a good crashed donor car, or grab the car in my post above, and it will be more cost-effective and give you a very capable base to build on...You are not going to be ble to escape the wiring monster anyway you do it, but it really isn't that bad if you have Bentleys for both vehicles and a feel for the eccentric thinking of the German engineers who developed the wiring in these cars







However, I am not trying to mislead you into thinking this will be a bolt-on-swap-the-motor cake job, you will have to overcome some monting issues, especially if you want to keep the A/C system...
After doing many conversions in my years of vw/audi love/hate affair, I favor the donor-car process whenever it is possible.......


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

Some links for you to browse:
Info on the 7a and 3b motors http://www.audi-quattro.org/cg...Ato3B 
034 fueling systems: http://www.034efi.com/ 
7a info: http://www.20v.org/ 
20vt info: http://www.s-cars.org/ 
20vt swap into 90q w/7a: http://www.intendedacceleration.com/


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## Toxcheap (Jul 26, 2003)

*Re: audi 7a (nuugen)*

I have a complete motronic harness for the AAN (20VT Five coil motor) with ecu if anyone's interested.


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## 02GTI1.8t (Aug 4, 2001)

*Re: audi 7a (Toxcheap)*

no I definately do not wanna keep the stock fueling. if i were to swap in a 3b im not sure I would wanna put in the 3b ecu anyways. Its obviously alot better than the 7a ecu but whats it like with higher than stock boost levels and will it address fueling etc. I think i would rather get a standalone to control everything. 
the main reason Ive been asking about building a 7a is because the 3b or aan seems hard to come by. Im NOT set on this. I just wanted to know if it were possible and I wanted to see your guys thoughts. 
Again Im just in the planning stages right now, and im trying to learn this stuff.


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## nuugen (Jan 2, 2002)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

cool


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## turboquattro (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: audi 7a (02GTI1.8t)*

There's a guy selling a complete 3B engine management setup. It's on the Audifans marketplace. I've bought from him, and he's a good guy.


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