# 8v watercooled Frankenbuild: blow through or pull through?



## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

Thinking of putting a Garrett T2 turbo and manifold I have to use on a 8v solid lifter watercooled mk1. 

It has a dual dellorto setup currently, and was wondering what the consensus would be between a blow through, and pull through setup for this type of build?

Will it be absolutely necessary to purchase the turbo rebuild kits for each of these units if the decision was to go with the blow through setup if not enclosed in a box? If so?

Will one carb be enough to fuel the assumed 19??cc with a pull through?

Fuel economy & tuning of each?


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

Thanks to B4S for the recommendation in another thread to check out shoptalkforums. Lots of info on there.

Any hands on opinions on this still welcome. I know EFI is the easier way to do this. :beer:


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

The blow thru is preferred. Lotus did it with Dells and made plenty of power. If you draw through you could use any down draft or a TBI setup but it would have a tendency to ice up especially in the GTA eh?


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

antichristonwheels said:


> The blow thru is preferred. Lotus did it with Dells and made plenty of power. If you draw through you could use any down draft or a TBI setup but it would have a tendency to ice up especially in the GTA eh?


Doont know der eh.. it might.  Car goes away at the end of October anyway due to all the salt. 

Is the turbo rebuild kit absolutely needed for the dell with the blow through? Or is it just a matter of getting a box setup, and the fuel pressure reg. in and set?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I love the idea of a draw-through setup, it's way less complicated in some aspects. It's important to get the intake set up properly though, so that the fuel doesn't pool in the compressor housing of the turbo. That vid is sweet, it shows how they ran the outlet of the turbo right into a custom log-style intake, although you can't really see it. A modded TDI intake would work I think, if you could get the turbo up high enough. Since our brake booster is in the way, you might have to run the carb on the other side of the engine, but this is a minute detail really. I'm so tempted to give this a try, now that I have a proper carbon-sealed turbo. 

I really like the idea of using fuel to cool the intake charge too, the aircooled guys have great success this way, although blow-through is still more popular .


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## kraftaroni (Feb 1, 2005)

I have a pull through setup on my 2332 aircooled manx... No problems ever with the setup. Had a 44 mikuni solex sidedraft. You can buy that manifold at http://carcraftstore.com/turbo.aspx With 10 lbs of boost it was a monster. I switched over to a 600cfm holly with vacuum secondary's. It was a little easier to tune. Was thinking about doing this with an ABA I have already built the bottom end. But I already have a megasquirt as well so I'll probably run that! I drive my manx on the street as well it's easy to drive with the carb turbo once you have the jetting correct. 

Pic with the 44 sidedraft.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=103376013824&set=a.103375518824.108280.601478824

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=103376018824&set=a.103375518824.108280.601478824


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## kraftaroni (Feb 1, 2005)

Also the bost sensing holly fuel regulator works really well. I had a standard one until I put a wideband on my car and noticed it was lean after I turned the bost to 15lbs. I was running out of fuel in the carb. They have them at Carcraft as well.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I've read about your Manx .


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## kraftaroni (Feb 1, 2005)

Nothing like a 300$ manx that weighs 1000 lbs with a 4000$ motor. LOL :beer: It's scary fast My VR6 best time is a 13.2 in the quarter. When you drive the manx it makes the VR feel like a 50 hp diesel LOL.... I love pull through turbo setups. "Suck and Boost".


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

yea you need the turbo parts on the carbs or they will blow air out the shaft seals, etc. Nice thing with the Dells is the stuff is available. Seems like it would be difficult to fashion a box on the carbs on a counterflow setup with the exhaust manifold in the way and all.


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

B4S said:


> I love the idea of a draw-through setup, it's way less complicated in some aspects. It's important to get the intake set up properly though, so that the fuel doesn't pool in the compressor housing of the turbo. That vid is sweet, it shows how they ran the outlet of the turbo right into a custom log-style intake, although you can't really see it. A modded TDI intake would work I think, if you could get the turbo up high enough. Since our brake booster is in the way, you might have to run the carb on the other side of the engine, but this is a minute detail really. I'm so tempted to give this a try, now that I have a proper carbon-sealed turbo.
> 
> I really like the idea of using fuel to cool the intake charge too, the aircooled guys have great success this way, although blow-through is still more popular .


Was thinking the same thing with the carb on the pass. side of the bay, and the exhaust downpipe heading down near the shifter linkage like in the diesel setup. And as well on the diesel intake. I have all of this stuff kicking around, which makes the investment minimal. 

Thing I'm worried about now is hearing that diesel turbos may have issues with the correct sealing under vacuum. The Garrett T2 I have is from a diesel application. Am I going to run into trouble with oil being sucked through the seals under vacuum?



kraftaroni said:


> I have a pull through setup on my 2332 aircooled manx... No problems ever with the setup. Had a 44 mikuni solex sidedraft. You can buy that manifold at http://carcraftstore.com/turbo.aspx With 10 lbs of boost it was a monster. I switched over to a 600cfm holly with vacuum secondary's. It was a little easier to tune. Was thinking about doing this with an ABA I have already built the bottom end. But I already have a megasquirt as well so I'll probably run that! I drive my manx on the street as well it's easy to drive with the carb turbo once you have the jetting correct.


Have to log in to check those photos, but I'll definately be doin that later. 

What was the mileage like with the 44 mikuni around town if you weren't into it? Did the boost sensitive fuel pressure regulator adjust fuel correctly, and not overfuel under higher boost?

Going to get back at your IM as I want to pick your brain on that setup for sure. 



antichristonwheels said:


> yea you need the turbo parts on the carbs or they will blow air out the shaft seals, etc. Nice thing with the Dells is the stuff is available. Seems like it would be difficult to fashion a box on the carbs on a counterflow setup with the exhaust manifold in the way and all.


The turbo dell carb rebuild kits seems to run around 60 pounds per carb plus shipping. And enclosing the whole setup would definately be a problem back there over the exhaust mani. Seems like the pull through might keep the investment and fabrication way down.


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

I like where this is going


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Shaggy said:


> Was thinking the same thing with the carb on the pass. side of the bay, and the exhaust downpipe heading down near the shifter linkage like in the diesel setup. And as well on the diesel intake. I have all of this stuff kicking around, which makes the investment minimal.
> 
> Thing I'm worried about now is hearing that diesel turbos may have issues with the correct sealing under vacuum. The Garrett T2 I have is from a diesel application. Am I going to run into trouble with oil being sucked through the seals under vacuum?


If it's an older turbo, it will already be using the older carbon seals vs. the newer dynamic seals. If it's a carbon sealed unit, then it's good to go. The dynamic seals are essentially like piston rings around the shaft of the turbo, so under heavy vacuum oil will go right around them. What is the T2 off of? I'm using a Dodge T3/MkII TD hybrid on my car, and it's carbon sealed, as is the VW 1.6 TD T3 that gave it's life so that I may run more boost .


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

impulse byer said:


> I like where this is going


The other semi local carb guru. :beer::thumbup:



B4S said:


> If it's an older turbo, it will already be using the older carbon seals vs. the newer dynamic seals. If it's a carbon sealed unit, then it's good to go. The dynamic seals are essentially like piston rings around the shaft of the turbo, so under heavy vacuum oil will go right around them. What is the T2 off of? I'm using a Dodge T3/MkII TD hybrid on my car, and it's carbon sealed, as is the VW 1.6 TD T3 that gave it's life so that I may run more boost .


Nice. You thinking of actually going through with the pull through now? Possibly? :thumbup: 

The T2 is off of a 95 1.9TD AAZ motor.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Hmm...that's a tricky one. Gpop Shop might have a listing for that turbo, if it's carbon-sealed.
I'm currently going boost, yes...but leaning towards a few other methods of fueling/sparking it. The carb stuff is ALWAYS at the back of my mind though, especially since I snagged an oldschool Carter Knock Elimination kit at the Barrie flea market this year .

[edit]Hmm, Gpop Shop.com seems to say that most stuff after 1990 is going to be dynamic sealed vs. carbon. I have spoken to Herman at Cherry Turbos (I believe he's in the GTA somewhere), and he says that he can convert most Garret turbos to carbon, fairly easily. It might be worth it to try and find an early 1.6 T3 to fit that manifold. [/edit]


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

B4S said:


> Hmm...that's a tricky one. Gpop Shop might have a listing for that turbo, if it's carbon-sealed.
> I'm currently going boost, yes...but leaning towards a few other methods of fueling/sparking it. The carb stuff is ALWAYS at the back of my mind though, especially since I snagged an oldschool Carter Knock Elimination kit at the Barrie flea market this year .
> 
> [edit]Hmm, Gpop Shop.com seems to say that most stuff after 1990 is going to be dynamic sealed vs. carbon. I have spoken to Herman at Cherry Turbos (I believe he's in the GTA somewhere), and he says that he can convert most Garret turbos to carbon, fairly easily. It might be worth it to try and find an early 1.6 T3 to fit that manifold. [/edit]


Thought you may have been doin the turbo route the old school way for a second there. :beer:

Found a rebuild kit online claiming it includes a 360 degree carbon seal. Not sure if this is an 'upgrade' kit for the T2, but if it's a replacement kit then it looks like I may be good to go. http://www.psiconcepts.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=25

Herman's out in London from what I can remember. Called him up about a rebuild on a k24 a couple months back. Seemed like a good guy, heard good things about him aswell.


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

Look here yet? It's for aircooled but I'm sure theres something of use in there 

http://www.lowbugget.com/main_page.html

I would like to have something more to add to this but the car is up for sale right now. but with little to no interest maybe.....

Someone have any Weber tech to add?

And is that a pic of your engine bay?


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

impulse byer said:


> Look here yet? It's for aircooled but I'm sure theres something of use in there
> 
> http://www.lowbugget.com/main_page.html
> 
> ...


Looked that over a bit and there are some good deals. :thumbup: 

You looking to get into a turbo setup with an aircooled if you end up trading?

That's a pic of my engine bay, yea. No more valve cover or tie bar. Gotta start ripping into it as soon as I can get it into a garage. 

Been looking over a bunch of street air cooled pull through setups and some of them rip, look to have great throttle response too. I think I'm set on the draw through setup vs. blow through. This motor is built pretty well already from what we can tell. It has a 1.6 D block in it but even without the nitrous it pulls hard and more like a built 2.0. I'm hoping for some forged internals but have to pull it apart to verify that. Going to get some comp. numbers and see where I'm at with compression first and foremost. 

Anyone have any links to another dhla turbo manifold, or know where one can be had for cheaper than $100? 

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1001214


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

Are the holley red 7 psi pump, 7-9 psi regulator the best options? Seems like there are quite a few guys running them, and tapping the regulator for boost. 

Any opinions, links to cheap online ordering? 

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/199R7914-3.pdf


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

Keeping these links in here for reference. 

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/m...Product_Code=HOLLEY12-803TURBO&Category_Code=

Does anyone with experience have any baseline carb settings off the bat?

I'll have to figure out what it's currently set up with when I pull it apart shortly.

I know there have been issues mentioned with biasing the center cylinders air intake with the diesel intakes. Any opinions on if this issue will become magnified and become detrimental being that both fuel and air will now be entering into the intake tract through the centre of the manifold?


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

Some here that will go down to 2 or 3 psi witch is what you want for dells or webers. For idle or min boost times.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/regulators/carbureted-regulators/


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

The brits love carbed turbos, check out www.dellorto.co.uk for some boost-referenced FPRs. I get all my parts from them, great service. 

http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandi...PartNo=TURBOREG&CategoryID=8&PartsectionID=18


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

impulse byer said:


> Some here that will go down to 2 or 3 psi witch is what you want for dells or webers. For idle or min boost times.
> 
> http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/regulators/carbureted-regulators/


Perfect, new tech. Thanks. :beer::thumbup:



B4S said:


> The brits love carbed turbos, check out www.dellorto.co.uk for some boost-referenced FPRs. I get all my parts from them, great service.
> 
> http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandi...PartNo=TURBOREG&CategoryID=8&PartsectionID=18


There's some good stuff there too. I guess some of the newer aeromotive style fprs allow higher in feed pressures from what I can see. Is that the case? What I'm saying is, a used CIS pump should be putting out around the 60 psi marker right? edit: Forget all that, as impulse said the 5psi minimum may be a bit high even. The newer tech might be easier to find and adjust to as low a pressure as needed. Thinking of maybe using a straight CIS pump to send it from the tank.

Was going over this link too and think I might tap the new intake to reuse what's already installed. :thumbup::beer:

http://www.nitrous.info/nitrous-with-turbos.htm


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

The brit stuff requires you to use two regulators, the 60psi-5psi one, and then a second 1-4. It's a roundabout way of using a fuel injection pump I guess. I usually try to get the right pump for the job, less mucking about that way . I'm using a NAPA 6-9psi pump right now, which cost me $75, but it was 'local' parts. If I ever decide to go carb/boost, I can take advantage of the extra pressure.

You've got me seriously re-thinking my setup, lol.


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

B4S said:


> The brit stuff requires you to use two regulators, the 60psi-5psi one, and then a second 1-4. It's a roundabout way of using a fuel injection pump I guess. I usually try to get the right pump for the job, less mucking about that way . I'm using a NAPA 6-9psi pump right now, which cost me $75, but it was 'local' parts. If I ever decide to go carb/boost, I can take advantage of the extra pressure.
> 
> You've got me seriously re-thinking my setup, lol.


:laugh: I dig that part. Re-thinking the setup. :beer::thumbup:

That multi reg. route sounds discouraging. Have to really read into this more before I make the decision I guess. 

What do you think about proximity of the carb to the inlet of the turbo? I bet throttle response and atomization etc would be the most ideal the closer it is, but if I'm thinking of running a gasser intake and have to run the turbo down low, is a 1 1/2 foot drop down s-pipe going to mess with being able to fuel it right? Thinking about how the carb would do sitting in the open spot above the transmission.

edit: this thing would be a really cool acquisition: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5090289-FS-custom-intake-manifold

edit: Think the fuel would pool heavily in the bottom of the turbo compressor outlet 180 bend with this type of setup?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Do you mean a gasser carb intake, or a gasser EFI intake? If the carb was close-ish to the turbo (or at least mounted on a pipe that angled downwards towards the intake of the turbo, I don't think there would be a huge issue with pooling. It should be very finely atomized by the time it gets through the turbo, as long as there aren't many couplers or 'bumps' in the road in the piping, my guess is that it would work half-decently. I've got no experience with carbed turbos though .

Don't ask engineers about this, that's for sure. They'll go on for days about fluid dynamics, and the inefficiency of the whole idea, lol. Bolt it together, and go from there .

[edit]Ah, nice diagram, gasser EFI intake, gotcha. Yeah, there would be some serious pooling there. I don't imagine it would be deadly...but it might make for some interesting startups, lol.


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## Shaggy (Jan 20, 2000)

B4S said:


> Don't ask engineers about this, that's for sure. They'll go on for days about fluid dynamics, and the inefficiency of the whole idea, lol. Bolt it together, and go from there .
> 
> [edit]Ah, nice diagram, gasser EFI intake, gotcha. Yeah, there would be some serious pooling there. I don't imagine it would be deadly...but it might make for some interesting startups, lol.


:laugh: I'll definatley stay away from getting opinions from any engineers on this back-yard mechanic foolery. 

In regards to the startups.. think it'll get into big rev's once it fires off of all that fuel?

edit: waiting on some responses about some used parts for the setup. Have to look into if this 4k trans in the car has been modified at all (bigger 5th, bolted diff?). The parts and build of this car are all a big mystery. It was built for 1/4 it seems, and must have some pretty big numbers going through it with the wet direct port nitrous. 

I guess when it comes down to it, the 4k is not a good trans for boosted applications regardless. Really wanted to keep the build as cheap as possible, using known good functioning parts.


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