# B8 S4 vs 8V S3



## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Just got a bad itch, and thought I would get others opinion.

My friend owns a car dealership and just got in a 2010 S4 /w 60,000 km (40,000 miles), loaded for a pretty good price...lowest I have seen around, and said he would cut me a bit more of a deal. 

Anyone given it a thought? Looking at MAYBE next fall now for the S3. I actually didn't mind the test drive, the 3.0T was a brute, still felt a bit heavy of a car and actually the size didn't feel as bad as I remember when I took one for a test drive a year ago, maybe I am just really wanting my Audi back...


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Rudy_H said:


> Just got a bad itch, and thought I would get others opinion.
> 
> My friend owns a car dealership and just got in a 2010 S4 /w 60,000 km (40,000 miles), loaded for a pretty good price...lowest I have seen around, and said he would cut me a bit more of a deal.
> 
> Anyone given it a thought? Looking at MAYBE next fall now for the S3. I actually didn't mind the test drive, the 3.0T was a brute, still felt a bit heavy of a car and actually the size didn't feel as bad as I remember when I took one for a test drive a year ago, maybe I am just really wanting my Audi back...


If it has the sport differential and the car otherwise checks out I would absolutely pick one up. It's the older MMI system, but if the gadgets don't interest you but the performance does, the S4 is fantastic.

Based on what I'm finding it looks like there will be some decent 2012-2013 used and CPO models for the low $40s available by this time next year. I would take that over the S3 any day of the week.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

If the size and driving dynamics aren't detractors for you, sure- why not? I can't do it; the GLI is already larger than I care for. I'd be okay with the S3 being ever so slightly smaller, even.

S4 for S4, though, I absolutely prefer the B8 PI to the original B8, but waiting for one of those in your price range would negate the benefit of acting now and cutting the S3 wait short.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> If the size and driving dynamics aren't detractors for you, sure- why not? I can't do it; the GLI is already larger than I care for. I'd be okay with the S3 being ever so slightly smaller, even.
> 
> S4 for S4, though, I absolutely prefer the B8 PI to the original B8, but waiting for one of those in your price range would negate the benefit of acting now and cutting the S3 wait short.


I got set off a bit at lunch parked beside a girl I work with, B8 A4, and when I looked at everything compared to my current car size wise, and was like that's not too bad...

For B8 PI :
http://www.audiworld.com/articles/audi-b8-platform-refresh/
I guess it's updated center diff, exterior cosmetics, interior cosmetics - I see your point whole slew of new upgrades => that you will see besides mechanical in the new S3.

I think you got me thinking, maybe I should take a Jetta for a test drive...not looking at performance, styling, interior, just overall feel for size of the car is a good idea...my friend has 7 Jetta's on his lot...


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

For me, it's absolutely the front end treatment on the PI that does it. It's just so damn beautiful.

For the Jettas, are you thinking of driving one in an attempt to simulate the "size feel" of the A3? If that's the intention, does he have any fourth-gen Jettas? That's really going to be as close as you can get. Even better, does he have one of the handful of remaining road-worthy B5 A4s? That's the spiritual predecessor to the new A3, after all. :laugh:

Can you find your previous S4 out there somewhere?


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> For me, it's absolutely the front end treatment on the PI that does it. It's just so damn beautiful.
> 
> For the Jettas, are you thinking of driving one in an attempt to simulate the "size feel" of the A3? If that's the intention, does he have any fourth-gen Jettas? That's really going to be as close as you can get. Even better, does he have one of the handful of remaining road-worthy B5 A4s? That's the spiritual predecessor to the new A3, after all. :laugh:
> 
> Can you find your previous S4 out there somewhere?


Ya, the B5 A4, but having had the B5 S4 and deeming it the perfect car I ever drove...was it the B5 or the S4 that made it that good 

The thing that just caught me too, I would finance a small portion, and my friend said the best he can get me is 4.9% where Audi CPO (Canada) can do 1.9% and depending on the time of the year lower...plus an additional 2 yr warranty on top of the existing. 

I think I will just kick back and relax as Travis mentioned for another year...I think its the Quattro and the doom and gloom of winter that has me wanting the Audi more then the RWD I have now, though the Genesis is a tank in the snow...when it's moving...


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Unless Audi's CPO warranty is different in Canada than in the US, it's allegedly not worth much. A friend had a CPO 2005 S4; I believe he tried to use the warranty once, and he found it didn't cover much of anything.


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

So CPO, is more of a sales tool (fool the customer) you are on your own?


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## cyberpmg (Nov 27, 2001)

The CPO warranty I got with my 2004 A4 was well worth it. It covered a failed fuel pump (and towing) and repairs to the transmission (throwout bearing).


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

tagsvags said:


> So CPO, is more of a sales tool (fool the customer) you are on your own?


Regardless of manufacturer, I'd be reading every detail of their CPO program before buying a car. I think that, if you were to examine the outputs of the certification process across all manufacturers, you'd find a high non-compliance rate relative to the condition the program states the car must exemplify. So that part of it, yes- I think it's largely a way to bilk the buyer out of additional money on the front end... unless you have a dealer who is consistently methodical and thorough about certification.

On the warranty side, it's tough to say. I don't have first-hand experience with any CPO program, but the friend who had the S4 (roughly three years ago), recalls that the Audi CPO coverage doesn't cover as much as the VW CPO coverage, and he seems to remember there being a deductible.

I remember now what his first issue was; the car needed control arms when he bought it. That's not something that should have passed the certification process, really. When he called the dealer to task on it, they said that wear and tear items aren't covered by the warranty. While understandable, it shouldn't have been worn or torn after the certification process took place.


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

I would think that safety items be carefully checked and made right. Never had much luck with pre-owned cars. That is why I will be purchasing a new A3, when they get here to the states. Don't mind waiting as there are always hiccups with a new model and since the production facility is also new with many new people on the assembly lines.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

tagsvags said:


> I would think that safety items be carefully checked and made right. Never had much luck with pre-owned cars. That is why I will be purchasing a new A3, when they get here to the states. Don't mind waiting as there are always hiccups with a new model and since t*he production facility is also new with many new people on the assembly lines.*


That's one silver lining of our delayed A3 arrival in North America. The plant in Hungary will have had (probably) no less than six months of marketable production to work out production issues before they begin building cars for our market.

I'll have no issue ordering the day the book opens, but that day will likely be later for the S3 than the A3, unfortunately.


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

My Audi was bought as a CPO and the warranty has been worth every bit. I would not own a used Audi that wasn't CPO.
I have had, intake manifold replaced, a couple of sensors replaced, and they even replaced the leather on my drivers seat because it had a stain on it that wouldn't come out.
Every time that I take my car in, they have been able to get me a Audi loaner to drive.
A CPO is also worth more as a trade in if they can CPO it again.

Maybe what your friend had was a aftermarket warranty that the dealership called "as good as" CPO.
I am not saying that you shouldn't check over the car just because it is CPO but the warranty for me has been very nice.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

His was Audi CPO.

No deductible for any of the services you had performed?


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## cyberpmg (Nov 27, 2001)

My CPO warranty had a $50 deductable. That's really nothing considering the cost of parts and labor.

I will likely hold off for a 2nd year release of the S3. I previously had purchased a 2002 A4. It was the first year of the B6 platform and among the first group shipped over to the US (the B6 had been built and sold in Europe for almost a full year before being sold in the US). That car was riddled with issues and had a service record folder several inches thick. Granted, the build quality rating for Audi was much lower then.

While the A3/S3 will be fundamentally the same between Europe and North America, there may still be some items that will be different and new for the North American cars to meet Federal safety standards (like larger bumpers) which will be a new assembly process and prone to quality issues on early builds.

I truely hope that the new A3/S3 will be a superior build with minimal/low/no issues, but for now I'm sticking to the old rule of avoiding first year releases of new models.... unless it's a limited RS release.


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> His was Audi CPO.
> 
> No deductible for any of the services you had performed?


So far, no. But I am not sure if/what warranty work that I have had done in the last year and my car is almost 5 years old. So I am not positive that I have used the additional warranty that comes after the original 4 year warranty ran out.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> That's one silver lining of our delayed A3 arrival in North America. The plant in Hungary will have had (probably) no less than six months of marketable production to work out production issues before they begin building cars for our market.
> 
> I'll have no issue ordering the day the book opens, but that day will likely be later for the S3 than the A3, unfortunately.


One thing to keep in mind is that the biggest source of quality issues these days does NOT come from assembly issues but from subcomponents built by a supplier. I mentioned this in a different thread, but it bears repeating here: ask any MK IV Jetta/Golf Owner how many window regulators, O2 sensors, speed sensors, ABS modules and MAFs they replaced versus how many panel gaps, misalignments or assembly mishaps they found.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Don't remind me of those days.  :laugh:

Mine liked to chew up ECUs.


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## VR6Nikopol (Jul 11, 2001)

tagsvags said:


> So CPO, is more of a sales tool (fool the customer) you are on your own?


For my experience it was.

The 300+ point check list was botched. They let me drive away with only one key as the CPO claims only car which returned with the 2 original keys are elligible for CPO. My S4 leaked oil in my garage on Day 1 it came out of the dealer. Anyways, a nightmare.

On the other hand, financially, it was well worth it. The car received more repairs than the cost premium and yes the deductible was only $50.

It's all a question of personal preferences but I would also wait for the S3 because of size & technology.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

VR6Nikopol said:


> For my experience it was.
> 
> The 300+ point check list was botched. They let me drive away with only one key as the CPO claims only car which returned with the 2 original keys are elligible for CPO. My S4 leaked oil in my garage on Day 1 it came out of the dealer. Anyways, a nightmare.
> 
> ...


I have to imagine that it works something like this: a dealer brings in a used car and pays Audi the fee to have it certified. Audi probably only kicks back a very strict amount to the dealer to cover actual hours worked to correct any defects. If the dealer is lazy or pinching pennies, they scrimp on the work and fudge the paperwork knowing that if you come back to them with an issue after you take delivery it will be covered on Audi's dime by the CPO warranty with a full reimbursement.


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

Travis Grundke said:


> I have to imagine that it works something like this: a dealer brings in a used car and pays Audi the fee to have it certified. Audi probably only kicks back a very strict amount to the dealer to cover actual hours worked to correct any defects. If the dealer is lazy or pinching pennies, they scrimp on the work and fudge the paperwork knowing that if you come back to them with an issue after you take delivery it will be covered on Audi's dime by the CPO warranty with a full reimbursement.


And some wonder why some of us call them STEALER SHIPS, they even rob the manufacture.


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## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Travis Grundke said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that the biggest source of quality issues these days does NOT come from assembly issues but from subcomponents built by a supplier. I mentioned this in a different thread, but it bears repeating here: ask any MK IV Jetta/Golf Owner how many window regulators, O2 sensors, speed sensors, ABS modules and MAFs they replaced versus how many panel gaps, misalignments or assembly mishaps they found.


I agree but with my 2006 it has had coilpacks, sensors, n80, etc. go wrong but the biggest (non fixable) issues are the cam follower and carbon (design issues) that Audi didn't do anything about on new production for a couple of years and aren't any real fixes on the cars already out.

What scares me the most are design issues as it seems like they are the ones you end up living with and may not be fixable. Most sub components are irritations but eventually worked out.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> I agree but with my 2006 it has had coilpacks, sensors, n80, etc. go wrong but the biggest (non fixable) issues are the cam follower and carbon (design issues) that Audi didn't do anything about on new production for a couple of years and aren't any real fixes on the cars already out.
> 
> What scares me the most are design issues as it seems like they are the ones you end up living with and may not be fixable. Most sub components are irritations but eventually worked out.


Agree with you as I've had those same exact problems on my '06. That said, it was the first generation 2.0T and the design improvements over the years have made it substantially more reliable overall. I'm cautiously optimistic that the Gen 3 in the 8V will be a pretty solid product.

As for the carbon buildup, my understanding is that the indirect injection should help minimize that problem, but it looks like carbon will simply be one of those items we will have to live with regardless. Were Audi smart they would develop a relatively inexpensive cleaning procedure and add it to the maintenance interval. 

...of course, that costs money. ;-)


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

I'm not so concerned about the carbon buildup. I took mine apart for a walnut shell blast about 18 months ago (just under 70,000 miles), and while it's certainly not something you want a person of average mechanical aptitude to do, it's not difficult.

I'd be much happier if the damn thing would stop digesting intake manifold runner flap motors on a routine basis. The new one I installed with the carbon cleaning didn't make it more than about 18 months and 10,000 miles. 

If it were easy to change, I wouldn't be bitching. You may as well be doing a carbon buildup removal at the same time, though. I'm just going to let it ride and replace it again right before I sell the car. Stupid damn part... :facepalm:


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## VR6Nikopol (Jul 11, 2001)

Travis Grundke said:


> I have to imagine that it works something like this: a dealer brings in a used car and pays Audi the fee to have it certified. Audi probably only kicks back a very strict amount to the dealer to cover actual hours worked to correct any defects. If the dealer is lazy or pinching pennies, they scrimp on the work and fudge the paperwork knowing that if you come back to them with an issue after you take delivery it will be covered on Audi's dime by the CPO warranty with a full reimbursement.


I'm sure it works pretty much like that. Especially if the dealers knows the buyer won't be back for the CPO maintenance because they are out of town. Found the S4 at a dealer which is 2 hours from home. They knew I would take the car to the local dealership, so they just didn't care. So much for an Audi program. Anyways, I got them to take my car back a few months after to repairs what was botched: It took them 2 weeks to do it! 

Never again !


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