# vf engineering for mk3 vr6



## NWILGTi (May 10, 2002)

i am new to FI forums...and applications. Are they good? Reliable? easy to install? I am looking at a stage I set up.
Thanks
M


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## 98GTi-VR6 (May 16, 2000)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (NWILGTi)*

the kits just started being delivered for Mk3. You'll start seeing some more feedback in the next few days/weeks.
-Costas


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (98GTi-VR6)*

From a design aspect you are going to have a hard time finding a more thought out supercharger kit. But I would never even bother with stage one. You will not notice the small power go stage 2. Stage two makes good boost uses bigger injectors and will realy give the VR a kick in the ass.
But in all honesty if you can get a used Eurotech V2SQ for around 2200 toss in some ford 310cc injectors and a chip you will have a few grand left over to do other stuff


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (NWILGTi)*









Some more pics and sound clips here http://www.houseofthud.com/cartech/vf
Just FYI the runs were made up a 7% grade at over 6000 feet of elevation (down 15-20% in power)
so it may lack some of the drama of a blown VR6 at sea level.
ian


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## jcorallo (Jan 17, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

Ian - can you post up some pics of the bracketry of the set-up?
Does it look like you get extra wrap on the charger pulley?
Is that still a double sided serp belt I see?? Does the belt go the stock route or is the alt spun backwards or what? I thought that the charger pulley was to go in the position taken by the old idler pulley so a dbl sided belt wasnt needed?
Jules


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Scooter98144)*

quote:[HR][/HR]From a design aspect you are going to have a hard time finding a more thought out supercharger kit. But I would never even bother with stage one. You will not notice the small power go stage 2. Stage two makes good boost uses bigger injectors and will realy give the VR a kick in the ass.
But in all honesty if you can get a used Eurotech V2SQ for around 2200 toss in some ford 310cc injectors and a chip you will have a few grand left over to do other stuff
[HR][/HR]​Don't listen to this guy. I've talked to 3 different mk4 owners who have the stage 1. They say its a *HUGE* and *NOTICEABLE* difference. I asked them all what types of cars they have raced and beaten...I recall one 'em being an s2000 getting WHOOPED by 2 car lengths. He also ran a 1.8t that put down 222whp and ~240wtrq and pulled on him. So I'd say that ~70whp improvement will be noticeable. What about all the 1.8t guys that get chipped and brag about how must faster there cars are.







There only getting ~30hp. Call me







but it just makes sense.










[Modified by VR6OOM, 12:16 AM 4-13-2003]


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## Kenji (Jul 13, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (VR6OOM)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Don't listen to this guy[HR][/HR]​I agree. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a stock 12v VR6 and one with a stage one VF-E kit should be forcibly removed from the car.


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (VR6OOM)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Don't listen to this guy. I've talked to 3 different mk4 owners who have the stage 1. They say its a *HUGE* and *NOTICEABLE* difference. I asked them all what types of cars they have raced and beaten...I recall one 'em being an s2000 getting WHOOPED by 2 car lengths. He also ran a 1.8t that put down 222whp and ~240wtrq and pulled on him. So I'd say that ~70whp improvement will be noticeable. What about all the 1.8t guys that get chipped and brag about how must faster there cars are.







There only getting ~30hp. Call me







but it just makes sense.









[Modified by VR6OOM, 12:16 AM 4-13-2003][HR][/HR]​Ok so I went and took a look again at the the VF site and did not know they want 1250 for some injectors, chip, pulley and new intake plumbing. So stage two costs 5000 dollars.







So I can see why a person would start with stage one. 
You realy got to hand it to Nik for making a kit that will earn him the most money. Why not just sell stage one with the same intake plumbing as stage two. The cost to make them would be nearly the same other than the fact that when you want stage two he gets to mark that up as well. For 5 grand I could have a custom Turbo set up with stand alone. Just hard to see forking out that much money. 
You can listen to me or not listen I could care less. Just have my own oppinion on car tunning and money spent. I am not a wealthy person so I have to weigh dollars spent to the gains. But you will not find a better BLING BLING charger kit. 
I have spent maybe 2800 so far with tunning and what not and have 230 hp and 225 torq and that should get better not to mention the last runs I did I forget to check belt tension and only hit maybe 8 PSI. Was going up an off ramp today and hit 9psi at just about redline so I would guess it should be more like 250 maybe but hard to prove.
All this debate realy just comes down to how much money you have and how you want to spend it. If I made a crap load more cash I would have gone a diffrent route.
I also think after spending the last 3 years reading every artical and post I could find on nearly every kit and company out ther that I have some idea about this topic.
For that 5 grand I would have driven my car to matrix in Oregon had a custom intercooled turbo kit put on. Plus a few extras..LOL with there GIAC software..








It is all in good fun and all about making friends and driving fast as hell. 
As for beeting cars. Heck before the charger I would spank a good number of so called fast cars..LOL.. Now I hardly bother as it is just to easy. 
keep up the good comments as this thread has stayed on topic very well.
From the Seattle streets.
Scott S


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (jcorallo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ian - can you post up some pics of the bracketry of the set-up?
[HR][/HR]​I would if I had taken one, but I don't see any photos of the blower
with the bracket attached. It's just one lump of metal with 5 holes in it.
3 lined up with the stock tensioner holes, and 2 bigger ones, to attach
to the blower. (Can see the blower's two holes at http://www.houseofthud.com/cartech/vf
The bottom of the two is threaded, and the top one is an open slot to allow the blower
to rotate around the bottom one for tensioning.
You can either attach the blower to the bracket, and then bolt the bracket
to the block, or attach the bracket to the block, and then bolt the blower on.
All 5 bolts are accessible either way. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
Does it look like you get extra wrap on the charger pulley?
[HR][/HR]​Most definitely. It's got more wrap than *any* VR6 supercharger
kit I've seen so far. I estimate about 165 degrees or so.
No tensioner/idle pulleys or extra brackets. No need to raise
the engine to install. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
Is that still a double sided serp belt I see?? 
[HR][/HR]​Yes. You could easily mistake it or the OEM belt, but it's just a 
*tiny* bit longer. They supply a smaller power steering pump pulley
which gives more slack at the top, which in turn lets them
move the blower up higher which helps with the wrap.
quote:[HR][/HR]Does the belt go the stock route or is the alt spun backwards or what? I thought that the charger pulley was to go in the position taken by the old idler pulley so a dbl sided belt wasnt needed?
[HR][/HR]​It sits higher and a little forward of the stock tensioner location and the alternator
spins the normal way. 
Heck.. here's how to show it. Modified the stock belt routing diagram to show the blower's
pulley location.








That should cover it. Tensioning is a 60 second job. Loosen two bolts
each half a turn or so, put a screwdriver through the legs that attach
the blower to it's built in bracket, pry up, tighten main bolts. Done.
ian



[Modified by Daemon42, 6:55 PM 4-12-2003]


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Scooter98144)*

quote:[HR][/HR] 
Ok so I went and took a look again at the the VF site and did not know they want 1250 for some injectors, chip, pulley and new intake plumbing. So stage two costs 5000 dollars.







So I can see why a person would start with stage one. 
[HR][/HR]​Keep in mind Garrett discovered what he's worth a while back and he now charges
Nik a huge amount for the software. I'm sure it's a good percentage of that upgrade price (which
btw I see as being $1000, not $1250 on their website) 
On the other hand, it's pretty much guaranteed to be glitch free too. 
Anyway, figure at least $350-400 for the chip. 
What's 6 injectors cost? 
Plus development costs?
Dunno about the intake tubing and filter. The filter can't really get
any bigger than it is now and fit in the fender. And the MAF is a constriction 
that's hard to avoid unless stage 2 is an intake pipe with a place
to stuff the stock MAF into.. which would then make it worth something.
ian


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

Went down and looked at my AMS. It has about 180-190 degrees of belt wrap. If I took off the Alternator bracket and remounted the idler pulley I could see getting nearly 200+ degrees of wrap. At the moment though it is well over half way around the charger pulley. 
Yes the upgrade for the MKIII is 1000 and the MK4 was 1250. 
As for tighting the belt it is just as simple on the AMS. Gave mine half a turn before doing a drive this morning. Lossen two bolts turn the 3rd half a turn and was done. Maybe took 3 minutes.
One thing nicer also with the VF is weight. I bet there is a big weight diffrence in the brackets. Mine are all plate steel and also has one big ass block of steel and they were heavy.
As for the cost of the GIAC that was a VERY good point as good soft were is truly more important than brackets or double sidded ribbed belts. All that meens nothing if it does not run well. Heck mine could still be better and for a lot of folks who are not VW addicts like us getting it right is not worth the hassel. Just spend the cash and have it right the first time.
So yes 300-400 for injectors and then the new chip maybe not so bad for a grand. 
If you sent me the pics you used to show the belt wrap I can do the same in photo shop to show how my belt is routed.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Scooter98144)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Went down and looked at my AMS. It has about 180-190 degrees of belt wrap. If I took off the Alternator bracket and remounted the idler pulley I could see getting nearly 200+ degrees of wrap. At the moment though it is well over half way around the charger pulley. 
[HR][/HR]​That's cool. I just knew that the AMS/Eurotech blowers do still slip their belts (perhaps at higher boost levels)
and I know they eventually eat up idler pulleys (as did the Z-eng blower), which is why I'm so stoked
not having one, and not having to mess with the bracket the pulley lives on. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
Yes the upgrade for the MKIII is 1000 and the MK4 was 1250. 
[HR][/HR]​It's a Mk3 thread..








quote:[HR][/HR]
One thing nicer also with the VF is weight. I bet there is a big weight diffrence in the brackets. Mine are all plate steel and also has one big ass block of steel and they were heavy.
[HR][/HR]​That and there's no idler pulley bracket.. The little solid bracket the blower bolts to
probably weighs a pound.. maybe two.
quote:[HR][/HR]
If you sent me the pics you used to show the belt wrap I can do the same in photo shop to show how my belt is routed.
[HR][/HR]​I started with this image.. http://www.gti-vr6.net/library/engine/repl_serpentine_belt.html
and snagged one of the Vortech photos from images.google.com
http://images.google.com/images?q=v...=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&start=40&sa=N
and slapped it down as a semitransparent layer, and resized appropriately.
ian


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## jcorallo (Jan 17, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

Ian - tell me about this dbl sided belt please....
I have a non-AC VR6, and my OEM serp belt is single sided - it only has ribs on one side.
So why has your belt got ribs on both sides? When I installed my Z-kit, I had to replace the stock serp belt for the dbl-sided one for the sake of the alternator, which was now being spun backwards on the back of the belt track. So what is it that requires you to have a dble sided belt? AKAIK, the AC pulley is smooth yes? - and your stock belt is single sided right?
Jules


[Modified by jcorallo, 6:44 PM 4-13-2003]


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (jcorallo)*

No, the stock belt is double sided for the Mk3 GTI-VR6.
I guess if both the water pump pulley and A/C pulley are smooth then 
yes the OEM belt *could* be single sided, but it isn't. 
Looks to me like a shorter single sided belt could be used with this
kit with a long straight span between PS pulley and alternator.
I'd be a little worried about the minimal wrap on the alternator
pulley. I don't know what kind of load it's capable of with
full electrical load. The other trick would be to find the right length. 
ian


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

Gatorback belts in an 8rib come in .5" lengths and then you just cut one rib off. Might be an option for non ac folks.?


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## KrUsTyX (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (NWILGTi)*









where did they put the MAF??!!


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (KrUsTyX)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
where did they put the MAF??!![HR][/HR]​What MAF? Did I forget something?








No, it's the first thing connected to the elbow going into the fender.
So the whole chain is:
Filter - MAF - intake elbow with PCV return and DV return - blower intake
- blower outlet.. with branch off to DV - long intake tube - throttle body.. manifold.. engine.. 
ian


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## KrUsTyX (Sep 2, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (NWILGTi)*

so the MAF is before the Charger... how comes the other kits, the MAF is between the blower and the manifold?


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## alpine (May 26, 2000)

Is the oil feed and return line connected at the same fitting???


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (KrUsTyX)*

quote:[HR][/HR]so the MAF is before the Charger... how comes the other kits, the MAF is between the blower and the manifold? [HR][/HR]​Because VF wanted to have a working diverter valve to relieve the boost spike when the throttle 
plate closes, and to do that properly the MAF should be in front of the blower (and in
front of the return line for the DV) so that it meters only net inflow. Other kits generally
don't have a DV so they don't bother relocating the MAF. They may run a BOV but
it should be put upstream of the MAF, or at least the BOV should be set with enough spring tension
that it only opens for a brief moment when the throttle closes completely. 
If you listen to the second of my 3 soundclips, you'll hear the DV in the VF unit
stay open at partial throttle for a while. A BOV doing that would cause an
increadibly rich conditions.
As for the oil feed and return lines.. Look at my photos.
http://www.houseofthud.com/cartech/vf
The oil feed line is the braided line looping over the top, and the return line is 
larger and down low on the opposite side of the step-up gearbox. The braided 
line that goes from one side of the blower to the other, injects a small amount of 
high pressure air into the oil feed line so that the oil is sprayed on the bearings instead of 
just flowing in, reducing resistance.
ian


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

One other benifit of moving the MAF, valve and filter down into that area of the vender is good COLD air. Never a bad thing when running boost.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Scooter98144)*

Not that the MAF should care whether the air is hot or cold. 
The filter can be in the fender regardless.
ian


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## sdriver (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (jcorallo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ian - can you post up some pics of the bracketry of the set-up?[HR][/HR]​J, the main bracket that holds the charger to the block looks like the Z-eng bracket (which I'm sure you're familiar with







) except it is thick steel. And that's about all there is to it.

quote:[HR][/HR]Is that still a double sided serp belt I see?? Does the belt go the stock route or is the alt spun backwards or what? I thought that the charger pulley was to go in the position taken by the old idler pulley so a dbl sided belt wasnt needed?[HR][/HR]​It's only because of the A/C that all North American VR6 need a double sided belt. Makes Nik's job of designing kits much easier on this side of the Atlantic - all our cars are the same










[Modified by sdriver, 2:45 PM 4-14-2003]


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## sdriver (Oct 5, 2000)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

quote:[HR][/HR] And the MAF is a constriction 
that's hard to avoid unless stage 2 is an intake pipe with a place
to stuff the stock MAF into.. which would then make it worth something.[HR][/HR]​I wish. I was just helping my bud install the Mk4 stage II kit and the MAF is stock. I'm a little concerned about it being so close to the ground. Also with the Z-blower, oil blowby would make its way down the intake thru the blower and collect in the air filter. I wonder if the Vortech will also pass oil, and mess up the MAF.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (sdriver)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
I wish. I was just helping my bud install the Mk4 stage II kit and the MAF is stock. 
[HR][/HR]​But is there now bigger piping between it and the blower? That doesn't make much sense. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
I'm a little concerned about it being so close to the ground. Also with the Z-blower, oil blowby would make its way down the intake thru the blower and collect in the air filter. I wonder if the Vortech will also pass oil, and mess up the MAF.[HR][/HR]​Ya, I've been concerned about the same thing because my Z-eng blower did the same, so I picked up
one of those compressor filters and intend to install it on the PCV return line as Marty's already done.
Marty says his filter hasn't caught *any* oil though. Oil shouldn't foul a Mk3 MAF though, as it'll burn 
off the hot wire, but the Mk4 MAF probably wouldn't be as happy.
Speaking of oil through the filter.. When Vortech assembled my blower they installed the check valve
on the aeriation line (boost air to oil feed line), backwards. So instead of pushing air into
the oil stream, it was pumping a small amount of oil straight into the blower outlet,
which then ran down into the hole to the bypass valve, and back into the intake
through the MAF and filter to the ground, leaving a pool of oil there within minutes.
Oops. Easy fix though. Be sure the arrow on the check valve is pointed at the blue block
before you install the thing. 
ian


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (sdriver)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
J, the main bracket that holds the charger to the block looks like the Z-eng bracket (which I'm sure you're familiar with







) except it is thick steel. And that's about all there is to it.
[HR][/HR]​Actually, I've got the Z-eng bracket in hand, and it's about 1/3rd the size of the VF bracket.
The Z-eng bracket has 3 holes, the VF has 5, is thicker, steel, and probably 2 1/2 times taller and maybe
twice as wide. It's got a little rounded off corner at the top where it almost touches the edge
of the head. You can see the top *half* of it in the photo above.
http://www.houseofthud.com/cartech/vf/vfeng1.jpg
between the thick aluminum block permanently attached to the blower's gearbox,
and the fuel rail. Can see the top bolt coming in from left to right from the blower
into the threaded hole in the bracket. The lower of the big bolts is hidden behind
the fuel rail and goes into a threaded hole on the blower. Below that are the 3 holes
that attach it to the block. (uses stock tensioner bolts). It conveys a real sense of solidity. 
ian


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## bollo (Aug 2, 2000)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

Daemon, have you had any issues with your oil line connected the way it is?? Does it hit the hood or anything??


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (bollo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Daemon, have you had any issues with your oil line connected the way it is?? Does it hit the hood or anything??[HR][/HR]​No. It doesn't sit up as high as it looks. It's below the level of the top of the valve cover.
I'll admit it was a little bit of odd routing, but it goes straight up from the top of the oil filter
housing through the manifold instead of having to bend way out forward and loop around the air 
pump/alternator and then back over the top. Also, the L fitting on my blower was pointing 
down instead of up, so I didn't want to mess with turning it around, and possibly breaking the 
seal or stripping the threads or whatever. 
ian


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## Blitzkrieg (Mar 19, 2000)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

Ian;
How much clearance (if any) do you have between the blower and the back of your headlights? Those are Hella dual-rounds, right? Seems like there is little or no room between the headlights and the blower on Vortech V1 setups, so I'm curious as to how much room you have with this blower. That's perhaps my only concern with this kit 'cause I'm not giving-up my Hella's!
How long did the install take? Did you do it yourself?
The kit looks great... I guess I'll have to put one of my kidney's on eBay or something so I can get myself this kit


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Blitzkrieg)*

Headlight clearance..
Not a lot. (They're Pzwo dual rounds with an H1 HID retrofit btw.. )








About 3/8" now. What I had to do was run the 3 aiming screws about as
far forward as they'd go. That got it to the point where the blower was
just touching that cap on the back of the projector housing. From there, you
can see I just dremelled away the corner. You can also gain another 1/8" or so
by loosening the main ring around the blower and rotating the snail shell forward a little (it
gets smaller diameter the further clockwise you look) I still need to wrap the back of the light 
up with aluminum tape to seal it and act as a heat shield. The real concern is
that the engine will shift a little to the right during hard left turns and
rub up against the large high voltage HID wires coming straight out the back.
If it weren't for those wires, it'd be a little less stressful fit. I wasn't going to add more power
to the car, and give up my HID lighting and not see where I'm going in a hurry, so if I 
couldn't have found a way to keep the HIDs, the blower wasn't going to go on the car.
You'd feel that way after hitting 3 deer in the last decade..








Install took about 8-10 hours, but that includes hacking on the lights,
relocating the HID ballast, and the mistake of draining the oil too soon
and having to fetch some cheap oil and refill it to continue. Without that 
extra hassle.. 8 hours tops. Doing it again on someone else's car.. 5-6 hours, I think. 
The time consuming bits are tapping the oil pan, getting the oil
filter housing off and back on, extending the MAF wiring
and just dealing with all the plumbing, which really needs to go
on in a particular order. 
ian


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## jcorallo (Jan 17, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

whooooaaa there...! "_extending the MAF wiring_"?
I thought the kit was supposed to come with a custom extension harness?
Jules


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## jcorallo (Jan 17, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (jcorallo)*

...also - does this headlight issue mean that you are going to have real difficulty in changing out a bulb when it fails?
Jules


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (jcorallo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...also - does this headlight issue mean that you are going to have real difficulty in changing out a bulb when it fails?
Jules[HR][/HR]​How often do bulbs fail.. The VF charger looks pretty simple tounbolt and pull out of the way.. 
Jezz so what if it is a little tuff to change a bulb it is a bolt on supercharger. You are going to be to busy spanking hondas to care about having to tak 30 minutes to change a bulb.


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (jcorallo)*

The kit includes a wire with 8, crimp on connectors already attached. You
cut the MAF wire, strip the ends back, stuff them into the connectors,
crimp and go.. 
As for changing the bulb.. 
1. yes it is pretty easy to unbolt the blower if need be.. I did it once
already to flip the aeriator line check valve around (Vortech installed it backwards)
and it's no big deal. 
2. I have HIDs. The HID capsule should last the life of the car.
ian


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## Buckeye(OH) (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Daemon42)*

Sorry to bring this one back from the dead. I have to emissions check my car every other year. In the even that it fails because of the S/C (do you think it will?) How difficult would it be for me to disassemble everything and return to stock?

Thanks
Adrian


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## J Dubya (Oct 26, 2001)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (Buckeye(OH))*

Leave the SC alone and take the fuel system and chip back to stock (Just dont get into in on the way to e-check.


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## Buckeye(OH) (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: vf engineering for mk3 vr6 (J Dubya)*

Wouldn't putting the stock chip in make it run worse?

Adrian


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