# Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Ok guys-
I don't have much time, so I will cover the major issues for doing the install. 
Before installation:
Car: 2000 GTI, Shine Real Street 220/180 springs, KMAC camber plates
Ride height front(avg) 26.5" floor to wheel arch
Ride height rear(avg) 26.25" floor to wheel arch
Rocker height front: 10.25"
Rocker height rear: 10.75"
LCA inside bolt to floor: 6.75"
LCA outside balljoint to floor: 7.75"








Here is a pic of the left side LCA before the install:








After installation:
All ride heights the same
LCA inside bolt to floor: 6.75"
LCA outside balljoint to floor: 6.5"








Here is a pic of that same LCA after the install:









First off, here are two side by side pics of the GTI(left) and TT(right) spindle. You can see that the ball joint location on the TT is much further away from the center bearing:








Also note that the steering arm is in a different location. You will have to flip your tie rods upside down to accomodate.








Here is the difference in the heat shielding, which will help those of you with 12.3" brakes:









The install is straightforward, except for two issues. The major issue is that you cannot reuse the stock MK4 balljoint. The shank on the GTI balljoint is smaller and narrower than the TT:








You must modify the TT balljoint to fit the GTI LCA. Below is a pic(left to right) of the TT balljoint, the one I modded, and a stock GTI balljoint. It takes a fair amount of grinding, drilling and fitting to make it fit as you can see in the pic. Not for the average DIYer.








The second issue is you must reverse the position of the outer tie rod to fit on the revised location of the TT spindle









I have only done one side, as the other side I received was bent







I therefore have no driving results. However, I do have the best pic of all. A Mk4 with some real negative camber







:









-Mike P
P.S. I want to thank Daemon42 and F1ForkVR6 for the inspiration to do this!



_Modified by tyrolkid at 6:10 PM 2-22-2004_


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## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Awesome work, Mike. Really looking forward to driving impressions once the other side is done. Did you end up being able to reuse the GTI tie rod ends or did those need to be swapped out for the TTs?


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## virtual_dub (Sep 8, 2003)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (cburkart)*

In the pictures the main difference to me is that the acutal height of the whole spindle is larger on the TT spindle than the golf spindle. It looks as if this just keeps everything in the same position except the LCA, pushing it down to make it parallel.
This may be a stupid idea and thoroughly demostrates my lack of knowledge, but would it be possible to just lengthen the bolts that attach the ball joint to the LCA and then put some sort of spacer in there. The only thing I would think stopping you would be that there could be more stress on the bolts making it unsafe structurally. It may be easier than switching out the whole spindle and wouldn't require the ball joint modification. Anyone is welcome to claim otherwise.
Also I've read that the increased angle of the tie rods causes more bump steer, this may be false, but it appears that this spindle wouldn't fix this because the tie rod end attachment is about at the same level. This would really only be a problem if you were dealing with a lowered car.
edit:: Great Work, can't wait for driving impressions


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## ShockWaveVT (Apr 16, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

instead of modifying the ball joint, why not spring for a set of TT LCA's at the same time?
also, does the larger distance between LCA and hub require you to run a 16" or larger wheel or does 15" still fit?
anyways nice writeup...


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (ShockWaveVT)*

The lengthening of the ball joint has been tried in the past with mixed results.
I did not want to swap to TT LCAs because you then have to swap to the TT front swaybar and TT front struts, which increases the cost significantly....
A 15" wheel will still fit....there is about 3/4" of clearance below the ball joint...


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

1. How much of that negative camber that you achieved is from the K-MAC plate? 
2. If you had a Shine suspension before, why was your outer LCA higher than your inner LCA? I thougt that was the whole point of not lowering the car, to avoid this?!? ^--Is this an issue stock?
3. Thanks for the pics and write-up. Too bad I'm the average DIYer. I don't have the tools or garage to pull this off. How long do you think your install time would be, now that you've done it?



_Modified by 3wheelinWolf at 8:51 AM 2-23-2004_


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (3wheelinWolf)*

1. How much of that negative camber that you achieved is from the K-MAC plate? 
Most of the negative camber is from the plates. Some from the TT spindle/balljoint.
2. If you had a Shine suspension before, why was your outer LCA higher than your inner LCA? I thougt that was the whole point of not lowering the car, to avoid this?!? ^--Is this an issue stock?
Mk4s have inverted LCAs stock. Shine is also inverted. Mine are now below level









3. Thanks for the pics and write-up. Too bad I'm the average DIYer. I don't have the tools or garage to pull this off. How long do you think your install time would be, now that you've done it?
I'd say it's about a 4 hour install.......
-Mike P


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## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

good work, as always, Mike http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Thanks! It will be interesting to see if this provides noticeable improvement in response, grip, etc. I'll be watching this one.


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## Nik S. (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (3wheelinWolf)*

will a TT LCA be a direct swap for a GTI LCA?


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (Nik S.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nik S.* »_will a TT LCA be a direct swap for a GTI LCA? 

Answered above.....you need supporting pieces....


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## Nik S. (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

So, say I got lucky at a junkyard.
I would need the following:
- TT front struts
- TT LCAs
- TT spindles+balljoints
- TT front sway
Any pieces I'm missing?


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## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (Nik S.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nik S.* »_- TT front struts
- TT LCAs
- TT spindles+balljoints
- TT front sway
Any pieces I'm missing?

I think the TT spindles accept VW Mk4 struts, so you wouldn't need those. You might need tie rods ends, too, Mike listed them in the parts he bought, but I'm not sure if he needed to use them in the install.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (cburkart)*

If you want to run a front swaybar with the TT LCAs, you will need the TT struts, as there is no swaybar provision on the TT LCAs. This is ultimately why I decided to go with the GTI LCAs instead.


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Great news for MKIV owners! Nice writeup too http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Not sure if you have any CNC capabilities, but a revised balljoint for this conversion would be a neat product .... though margins might be small to keep the price reasonable.
Looking forward to your driving impressions.


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## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

yes, this really is great news. anyone know where I can find some wrecked TTs?










_Modified by genxguy at 2:40 PM 2-23-2004_


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

This is good news. As an FYI, a local performance shop in my area are custom making sport spindles for this reason.
They will be offered as Kits or stand alone. I saw a prototype last year and they looked really good.
http://www.h2sport.com/SportSpindle.pdf


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

The H2sport spindle is vaporware....I finally gave up waiting and decided to try the TT setup......


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_The H2sport spindle is vaporware....I finally gave up waiting and decided to try the TT setup......

I will look into that, I hope that isn't the case. Your TT spindle looks like it does a decent job.


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

really great work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Mike, great work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif. The biggest question I have (besides will it work and what it will feel like) is how can someone other than a shop owner or technician like yourself modify the ball joint as you have? The swapping seems like it could be accomplished by any competant shop while the actual modification (of the ball joint) would only be undertaken by an enthusiast such as yourself. If this works will you think about doing the ball joint modification for others? Again, this is really great work. many of us are looking forward to your driving impressions.


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## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (GTItraveler)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTItraveler* »_how can someone other than a shop owner or technician like yourself modify the ball joint ...

Take it to a machine shop, show them what you want done (copy of the comparison pic Mike posted might be enough); it shouldn't take them long to cut it and shouldn't cost much. Hell, if you had lots of time, elbow grease, and several hacksaw blades you might be able to do it at home.


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (cburkart)*

before I did all tha cutting, I'd check on other VW / Audi for the proper part like maybe a B3 or something, you never know right?


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## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (oldmanTDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oldmanTDI* »_before I did all tha cutting, I'd check on other VW / Audi for the proper part like maybe a B3 or something, you never know right?

i am thinking A3 or S3...


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (hugemikeyd)*

If there is enough interest in the mod, I could start an exchange/sales program for the modded TT balljoint. A hacksaw blade won't cut through the balljoint(I tried). You'll need a good angle grinder, belt sander, and drill press to get it done. 
I will be checking ETKA today for various balljoint PNs.I just don't want to crapshoot $300 on balljoints....


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## alexb75 (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

What about R32 spindle? Does that fit with same LACs, etc...? Maybe that's the swap to wait for?!


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (alexb75)*

R32 uses TT LCAs.....


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## H2Sport (Jan 22, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

I know we are way behind our original launch schedule, but "vaporvare" may be a little harsh. The H2Sport Sport Spindle does exist, although retail sales have not yet commenced. 

_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_The H2sport spindle is vaporware....I finally gave up waiting and decided to try the TT setup......

Here's a few pics for now - we'll try to get more info posted in the next day. Our static camber numbers for the Sport Spindle kits are in the range of 1-2 degrees negative per side depending on which combination of spindle and control arms are installed.


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (H2Sport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *H2Sport* »_I know we are way behind our original launch schedule, but "vaporvare" may be a little harsh. The H2Sport Sport Spindle does exist, although retail sales have not yet commenced. 
Here's a few pics for now - we'll try to get more info posted in the next day. Our static camber numbers for the Sport Spindle kits are in the range of 1-2 degrees negative per side depending on which combination of spindle and control arms are installed.


They look great. How are the "adjustments" going? I don't believe a cost was ever indicated either. Any pricing info tba? Short of a modified ball joint, the TT option is looking pretty promising for those of us who are concerned about cost and quality.


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## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: (H2Sport)*

Great that you jumped in H2 Sport! We are waiting for your product. Will the tie rods requiring flipping over as Mike described above? What is the minimum drop from stock that this will work with? Please get it to market soon!!!!!TIA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by GTItraveler at 12:09 PM 2-24-2004_


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## Bikerdude (Jan 6, 2002)

*Re: (H2Sport)*

Well get those bad boys done, so we have another option out there.
Thanks for the info Mike, if you decide to persue making some custome joints, I would be very interested.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (GTItraveler)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTItraveler* »_ What is the minimum drop from stock that this will work with? Please get it to market soon!!!!!TIA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_Modified by GTItraveler at 12:09 PM 2-24-2004_

Give them a call, they are happy to discuss details. If I remember right I think they mentioned something about 1.75"
Don't take this to heart or spread it as gospel, but I think that's right.


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## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

How does this affect getting an alignment? Do you have to tell the shop that such-and-such neg camber is normal for your car? Will most shops accomodate you on this?


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*

does this mean that from stock height you drop it 1.75" and the control arms are in the same position as stock?


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_
2. If you had a Shine suspension before, why was your outer LCA higher than your inner LCA? I thougt that was the whole point of not lowering the car, to avoid this?!? 


yeah i thought the whole shine thing advocated that they kept the arms completely level and that the outter/inner portions of them were the same height off the ground!????? Would a spacer where the springs seats into the shock help this, or would the car not raise at all and just increase the spring preload?..... Someone shed some light, i would like DICK SHINE to jump in here if he dosent mind and explain.


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## Jouko Haapanen (Apr 30, 2001)

*Re: (Banditt007)*

Yes, the H2Sport Sport Spindle brings the control arms to a horizontal position with a drop of approximately 1.75"-2". It also relocates the tie rods the same amount as the ball joints to eliminate bump steer.

_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_does this mean that from stock height you drop it 1.75" and the control arms are in the same position as stock?


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## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (Banditt007)*

Banditt007: yes that is the point of the shine suspension however you would still have to be *3/4" above stock * to have parallel control arms on a MkIV!!
Juuko: Can this be used when lowering less than 1.75" (i.e. stock 337 is 1'' below stock)? Can you use it in this application and if so the LCA's will be above parallel (not so bad either).


_Modified by GTItraveler at 5:53 PM 2-24-2004_


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## '89gli (Sep 2, 1999)

*Re: (Jouko Haapanen)*

Jouko, how about the A3/Corrado ones next?







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Jouko Haapanen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jouko Haapanen* »_Yes, the H2Sport Sport Spindle brings the control arms to a horizontal position with a drop of approximately 1.75"-2". 

Sorry, but there is no way that is true if the H2sport spindle pictured is put into production. Judging by the pictures, the TT LCA is at most 3/8" shorter than the H2. My car is at stock ride height, and the TT is 1/4" below level. With a 1.75" drop, the H2 will be at least 1" past parallel. 
Put another way, the outside of the GTI LCA is 1" higher than the inside. If we add 2" drop, we are at 3" higher on the outside. The H2 sport spindle would have to be this distance greater than the GTI spindle, which unless the pictures deceive me, is not the case. 


_Modified by tyrolkid at 6:24 PM 2-24-2004_


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Why can h2 sport release the details on the phone, but not on the net??? Why not just get some publicity, and put up the info on their website or here on the tex


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## genxguy (May 26, 2002)

*Re: (Banditt007)*

Probably because anything put on Vortex tends to get overanalyzed and twisted beyond recognition. Better to get/give detailed accurate info in-person.


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_Why can h2 sport release the details on the phone, but not on the net??? Why not just get some publicity, and put up the info on their website or here on the tex









Check page 1 - I put a link to a 2 page PDF on the product.


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## CriteriumRacer (Nov 21, 2003)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (GTItraveler)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTItraveler* »_Banditt007: yes that is the point of the shine suspension however you would still have to be *3/4" above stock * to have parallel control arms on a MkIV!!
Juuko: Can this be used when lowering less than 1.75" (i.e. stock 337 is 1'' below stock)? Can you use it in this application and if so the LCA's will be above parallel (not so bad either).

_Modified by GTItraveler at 5:53 PM 2-24-2004_
 Actually, if your LCA's are a little above parallel it's a good thing. Your car will naturally resist body roll better than it does currently and your camber changes during suspension compression will be in the better part of the curve.


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (CriteriumRacer)*

Well, once mike sources another control arm from a TT and installs that we will hear the results straight from the horses mouth. I'm not putting my confidence in the h2 sport spindle until someone has one installed on their car. Hopefully by this summer it will be out. I'm glad mike has undertaken this project, i know he tracks his car alot so if anyone is going to notice handling differences subtle, or extreme, he would be one of the best people to review such a setup IMO. Can't wait to hear the results mike!!!!!. Keep up the good work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
P.S. I will prob call h2 sport sometime, but does anyone know off hand AN APROX price of these spindles if they are ever released to the public? I mean like $1000 or $500 or what. I'm not going to flip if your off by like $100 or so. Thanks


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## mJstk01 (Aug 15, 2003)

bump... interesting read, looking for to driving results


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (mJstk01)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mJstk01* »_bump... interesting read, looking for to driving results


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_"bump... interesting read, looking for to driving results"

Mike needs to source another TT control arm before he can give any driving impressions







. I'm sure he'll keep us updated.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*

I have sourced another control arm. Monday AM I will be receiving a new TT balljoint. Driving impressions this week....


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## mJstk01 (Aug 15, 2003)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (mJstk01)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

with the TT arms, and spindles you don't need the TT strut if you are going full shine, with no front bar. Just a thought.


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_yeah i thought the whole shine thing advocated that they kept the arms completely level and that the outter/inner portions of them were the same height off the ground!????? Would a spacer where the springs seats into the shock help this, or would the car not raise at all and just increase the spring preload?..... Someone shed some light, i would like DICK SHINE to jump in here if he dosent mind and explain.

...i just put the shine on my car saturday. the back end dropped a bit and the front end came up some. the control arms are totally level. they were not before the install.


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## OstTrefftWest (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (gelatin)*

So this would lower a bit up front without messing up the suspension geometry or lowering the roll center faster than the center of gravity? So then you could drop a corresponding amount in back (or a little more, which I'd think would help shift some of the weight off the front)? In other words, get the cosmetic benefits of a mild drop while still obeying all the Shine maxims for maximum handling?!?
Cooooooooooooool....


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## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Nice write up Mike, can't wait for the results.


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## Wolk's Wagon (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

I think some people have the wrong idea, if you think the TT spindles will "lower" your car, I don't believe ride hight is affected at all.


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (Wolk's Wagon)*

I think it will lower the car, this is just like a drop spindle.


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## virtual_dub (Sep 8, 2003)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*

In the first post the writeup clearly shows that the ride height is the same. The only thing that was changed is the angle of the front LCAs. I think this is due to the fact that the struts mount in the same place and because the weight of the car is the same the springs will sit the same.


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## mJstk01 (Aug 15, 2003)

yea I dont think it actually lowers the car, just corrects the alignment of the lca right?


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## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (virtual_dub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *virtual_dub* »_In the first post the writeup clearly shows that the ride height is the same. The only thing that was changed is the angle of the front LCAs. I think this is due to the fact that the struts mount in the same place and because the weight of the car is the same the springs will sit the same.

Correct! However it will allow you can to the car 1-1.5" (with shorter springs) and not affect the roll center, in fact it will be similar to stock spindle roll center, but center of gravity will be lowered.


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## virtual_dub (Sep 8, 2003)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *9VW23yrs* »_
Correct! However it will allow you can to the car 1-1.5" (with shorter springs) and not affect the roll center, in fact it will be similar to stock spindle roll center, but center of gravity will be lowered.

I agree, but I think some of the hard core suspension guys might be able to analyze this some more. I think you could argue that the stock roll center isn't that great and the shine springs even appear to fall short a little because of the stock suspension geometry. Although it does allow you to lower the car an inch and have the stock LCA configuration i think optimal geometry would still be with a spring like the SRS kit.


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (virtual_dub)*

oh I see, yes thanks for clearing it up, it does not lower the car just the pickup point of the arm, which would allow you to lower the car and still retain OEM arm angle. Or leave it and enjoy better performance. 
Kid, are the TT lower arms forged aluminum?


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oldmanTDI* »_oh I see, yes thanks for clearing it up, it does not lower the car just the pickup point of the arm, which would allow you to lower the car and still retain OEM arm angle. Or leave it and enjoy better performance. 
Kid, are the TT lower arms forged aluminum?

Correct on the TT spindles not lowering the car. Measurements are in the first post. Not sure if the TT LCAs are forged aluminum......last time I checked a TT they actually looked like cast iron to me......stock GTI/Jetta are stamped steel....


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## OstTrefftWest (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Okay, now I think I understand -- I'm a total suspension n00b, so a lot of it was over my head. Thanks for the clarification, folks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (OstTrefftWest)*

Patiently waiting for the update from Tyrolkid


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

cast steel, shame even SUV now feature cast aluminum arms for weight, I would think a TT would have forged aluminum arms.


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oldmanTDI* »_cast steel, shame even SUV now feature cast aluminum arms for weight, I would think a TT would have forged aluminum arms. 

I guess that helps explain why TTs are such porkers.


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (The Kilted Yaksman)*

my thinking too, a cast steel or cast iron arm is much heavier than the twin wall steel MK4 arm and the stock arm is more than strong enough for normal conditions. We know the bushings can also be changed in the stock arm, I can't see any reason to go with the TT arm. Now if it was a forged aluminum piece


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## mJstk01 (Aug 15, 2003)

lets see those impressions...http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2 F1 Fans (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_Not sure if the TT LCAs are forged aluminum......last time I checked a TT they actually looked like cast iron to me......stock GTI/Jetta are stamped steel....

According to the specs (found tons of online sources) they are forged. I couldn't find the material though.


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## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (2 F1 Fans)*

that would make more sense, but aluminum is SO much lighter than steel just picking them up should tell you which is which. Kid were they light or HEAVY?


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Jouko Haapanen)*

FYI-
TT balljoints are on national backorder.......still waiting on mine....anyone feel like selling/donating one to the cause?
-Mike P


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## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_FYI-
TT balljoints are on national backorder.......still waiting on mine....anyone feel like selling/donating one to the cause?
-Mike P

Hmm...that blows. What do they run btw. I'll look around and see if I can source one. Will AWD vs regular TT be an issue looking for these? 
$58 here: http://www.suspensions-shocks.....html
The PN# seems to be the same no matter the year, although there was not a quattro option for me when searching. If that makes difference.

$63 here, with free shipping: http://catalog.overnightautopa....y=10


_Modified by 3wheelinWolf at 9:12 AM 3-4-2004_


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## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Damn, I dont' have internet for a few weeks and I missed this. Good stuff. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*

They are heavy...steel.

_Quote, originally posted by *oldmanTDI* »_that would make more sense, but aluminum is SO much lighter than steel just picking them up should tell you which is which. Kid were they light or HEAVY?


----------



## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

If so we would be better off with the stock arms redrilled.


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*

Is H2's setup aluminum? It looks cast too.


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_Is H2's setup aluminum? It looks cast too.


Those are cast. The prototypes were really light made from ABS plastic.


----------



## BatiGol (Apr 1, 2003)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

great project Mike, waiting to hear results...


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (BatiGol)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BatiGol* »_great project Mike, waiting to hear results...

i cannot see how doing this will hurt performance in anyway, time to check the junkyards lol
EDIT: did a search on car-part.com and it looks like these things are about $200 a side...


_Modified by hugemikeyd at 2:41 PM 3-5-2004_


----------



## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (hugemikeyd)*

H20 please give us a shipping update and also a GP, I think many of use want to follow the kid, but we don't got the $$$$ for the TT stuff.


----------



## mJstk01 (Aug 15, 2003)

ttt


----------



## Imola Yellow GTi (Oct 27, 2000)

*Re: (mJstk01)*

will this affect strut clearance? as in increase or decrease?


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (Imola Yellow GTi)*

Just an FYI on TT front control arms. Remember the voluntary suspension recall in 2001? They changed the design of the front control arms amongst other suspension modifications. Hence the current TT control arms are commonly referred to as MKII arms vs the original MKI arms. When people went in for the recall - the dealer was to destroy the control arms that were taken off. Therefore, finding original TT MKI control arms is difficult. Here's a pic showing the difference. The arms are also not aluminum but are cast. As you can see, the bushing is much larger and the concentric sleeve in the middle is slightly offset. The original MKI arms are on the left. It has been confirmed that MKIV bushings fit the original MKI control arms so you can add poly bushing to them.


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

didn't they change the control arms b/c TT's were flipping over?


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (hugemikeyd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hugemikeyd* »_didn't they change the control arms b/c TT's were flipping over?

http://www.recalldata.org/2000/38589.shtml
http://www.audittcca.com/faq/960481863
Changes were made to reduce highspeed lift (addition of the rear spoiler), and I beleive to alter the balance toward more benign understeer at the limit.


_Modified by f1forkvr6 at 12:11 PM 3-9-2004_


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *f1forkvr6* »_Changes were made to reduce highspeed lift (addition of the rear spoiler), and I beleive to alter the balance toward more benign understeer at the limit.

Correct. The cars weren't flipping over and it was determined that it was driver error in pretty much all the cases where the back end came around at very high speeds. Never the less, they dialed in more understeer at the limit and made it more progressive as well. The suspension and spoiler changes were actually separate recalls as was the ESP retrofit which in fact would cost $500.
I had an original MKI TT and the steering input was much sharper than the newere MKII models.


----------



## Imola Yellow GTi (Oct 27, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*

which ones are we supposed to get now?
the new CA and spindle
i presume a new sway?


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (Imola Yellow GTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Imola Yellow GTi* »_which ones are we supposed to get now?
the new CA and spindle
i presume a new sway?

As it relates to this thread.. no.
Just TT spindle, and TT ball joints. That's it.
The ball joint bracket needs to be modified to attach
to the Mk4's A-arm as shown earlier and the steering tie
rods flipped over. 
Now if you wanted a complete TT or R32 front end, you'd need 
lower CA, ball joints, spindle, struts and new sway bar, minimum. 
ian


----------



## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

these are forged arms that is a forge mark on the arm a cast arms either have no casting line or a very thin casting line. This is a high PSI forged line. Still the arm has to be heavy and would IMO be a down grade for a MK4. Well at least the 4 banger MK4..


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oldmanTDI* »_these are forged arms that is a forge mark on the arm a cast arms either have no casting line or a very thin casting line. This is a high PSI forged line. Still the arm has to be heavy and would IMO be a down grade for a MK4. Well at least the 4 banger MK4..

They very well could be forged - i really have no idea as I've never seen them up close and personal. They are not stamped steel like the other MKIV arms.


----------



## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

right, thanks for the picture, I was just pointing out how you could tell a forged anything vs a cast anything, I have no tact, but I'm trying.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*

My TT balljoints should be here today.....here's to hoping!


----------



## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_.....here's to hoping!









http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_My TT balljoints should be here today.....here's to hoping!









When you modify this one, you should take some photos as well as trace it out on paper
to make a 1:1 scale 3-view diagram that can be used by a competant machine shop to replicate
your changes. Heck, they could probably clamp it into a milling machine and have it
all trimmed to the right shape in only a few minutes. 
ian


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_
When you modify this one, you should take some photos as well as trace it out on paper
to make a 1:1 scale 3-view diagram that can be used by a competant machine shop to replicate
your changes. Heck, they could probably clamp it into a milling machine and have it
all trimmed to the right shape in only a few minutes. 
ian

Good idea, but too late...the transformation is finally complete. FWIW, the TT spindles might change the steering ratio as well. The tires were at zero toe before the install, and now both are towed-in heavily. Alignment tomorrow....
-Mike P


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Actually, the toe in, seems to me it'd be a natural consequence of two things.
1. The camber plates you've got have moved the top of the strut inward.
2. The new spindle angles the CA further down thus pulling the bottom of the
strut in a little as well. (edit - actually.. only true if you were going from horizontal arms
to arms below parallel. In your case you were going from way above parallel to
slightly below parallel so the bottom of the strut is probably moving out.)
Since the steering tie rods attach between those two points, and they
haven't changed in length, the only way it can compensate is with
some toe in. Any time you change your camber with the plates
you'll see a little change in toe because the tie rod end isn't even (vertically)
with the ball joint. 
Could just be the horizontal location of the tie rod end is just further inward 
on the TT spindle too. 
ian


_Modified by Daemon42 at 4:05 PM 3-10-2004_


----------



## Girlsound (Apr 27, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

In the first pictures that you posted it looked (at least to this untrained eye) like the tie rods were at more of an angle before the swap. After, they looked more level to the ground...this would put the ends further out...more toe in. Or perhaps the steering arm on the TT uprights are closer to the car in relation to the pivot points. 
Ooh, I eagerly look forward to the driving report.


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (Girlsound)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Girlsound* »_
Ooh, I eagerly look forward to the driving report.
















Me too! All eyes are on you MikeP http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

I just realized this morning where the toe in came from.
The TT has a shorter wheelbase than any other car on the Mk4 platform.
Whenever you design a steering system you need to account for the 
fact that the inside front tire has to turn sharper than the outside front tire
while cornering. To do this, you angle the steering arms from the center of
the spindles in toward a point at the center of the rear axle. The shorter 
the wheelbase, the more angled in they are. The arms on your TT spindles
are therefore angled in further than the original Mk4 arms and of course the
tie rods have pushed their ends back out, causing the toe-in. Even after the car
is aligned it means you may see a slight bit of scrubbing at the inside front
when you're at high steering angles because it'll be trying to turn-in further
than necessary for your longer wheelbase.
ian


----------



## ptgdudley (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*

Forged STEEL. Not Aluminimum! Approx 2 lbs heavier than the stamped steel VW ones. I'm going to put mine on a diet to see if they can lose some weight. I'm going with them to get some additional negative camber on my 337.
ptgdudley


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_Even after the car
is aligned it means you may see a slight bit of scrubbing at the inside front
when you're at high steering angles because it'll be trying to turn-in further
than necessary for your longer wheelbase.
ian

If not too excessive, this could be good ... kind of a "hyper" ackerman phenomenon.


----------



## 2 F1 Fans (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: (ptgdudley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ptgdudley* »_Forged STEEL. Not Aluminimum! Approx 2 lbs heavier than the stamped steel VW ones. I'm going to put mine on a diet to see if they can lose some weight. I'm going with them to get some additional negative camber on my 337.
ptgdudley

What I am curious about is where the extra weight is located. The moment of inertia is more important than the weight.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (2 F1 Fans)*

Driving impressions?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

alignment today 100%....Been busy with customer cars as usual......


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_alignment today 100%....Been busy with customer cars as usual......

Man your priorities are waay off. The customer first? j/k








Looking forward to your impressions. Thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fortuneman (Feb 2, 2000)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

waiting.....patiently.


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

I can't wait to see the K-MAC with these new spindles in place.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Car is driving welll.....no issues so far...AutoX on sunday..........


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_Car is driving welll.....no issues so far...AutoX on sunday..........

So we'll REALLY know how they perform on Sunday afternoon?







Did you get a chance to AutoX with the K Mac plates before the TT spindles?


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

Mike, did you loose any wheelbase?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

First initial driving report:
The conversion is a success in terms of it's fitment and driveability. Everything bolts together smoothly, and the car drives normally. There is no change in wheelbase, ride height, steering speed, impact harshenes, etc. So there are no down sides to the conversion.
My alignment did not comeo out 100% as Im still fighting the camber plates a bit. I will be putting the car on the rack again this afternoon after slotting the balljoints on the ride side. As it sits, I have -2.2 on the left and -1.8 on the right. I want to try to even it out, as the car turns better to the right and would make for an unfair comparison. More details to follow. Sorry this is taking so long......


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

It's okay, we all appreciate the efforts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OstTrefftWest (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_It's okay, we all appreciate the efforts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Ditto. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBNDizzy* »_It's okay, we all appreciate the efforts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

triple Ditto http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

Went to the AutoX today. The TT setup held up well to flogging on the course. There are absolutely no issues with the setup as far as fitment and longevity thus far. The biggest change I notice about the relocated LCAs is a bit hard to describe, but I will try my best:
Previously, the car would turn in and begin rolling. Once it passed a certain roll angle, the level of grip would drop quickly and dramatically. I attribute this to the camber gain of the stock LCAs. With the TT LCAs, the level of roll can be increased, and grip held longer before the tire rolls over. This makes the car much more predictable and forgiving on the front end. 
The 2nd change is definitely the overall grip has increased to the point that the rear end must be addressed. I started the day wagging my tail every time I lifted the throttle. Although it makes the car faster on the autoX course, it's not something most of you out there would appreciate in a street car







Adjustments to tire pressure and shocks eliminated the wagging and made the car 100% "safe" for the normal street driver. 
Oddly enough, although this mod in theory raises the roll center, I wasn't able to notice a decrease in the tendency to roll. 
I will continue to report back, but as of now, the TT LCAs get the http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif While definitely NOT the first mod you should make to your suspension(the bang/buck isn't there), it's the icing on the cake once tires, shocks, and rear sway have been installed. 
-Mike P


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_
Oddly enough, although this mod in theory raises the roll center, I wasn't able to notice a decrease in the tendency to roll. 


There's another way to look at this. 
Body roll should be proportional to the force due to lateral accelleration of the car applied 
to the roll moment. You've just said that you're seeing noticeably higher lateral forces,
so a larger force, applied to a shorter moment arm, and you get roughly the same
body roll, but in the end, you're cornering faster, so it's all good. 
ian


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Did you stiffen or soften the rear shocks and did you raise or lower rear tire pressure? Just trying to grasp what changed.


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

My guess is he soften the rear dampers a bit, and whether
he lowered or raised the tire pressures depends on where they started started
and which tires they are. With my Dunlop SP8k tires, I raised the pressure
to increase grip, and lowered to decrease it. On my Falkens, lower it to
increase grip, and raise to decrease.. which is usually the approach taken
with race tires as well. 
ian


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

Mike, I'm confused , did you just change the TT spindles and ball joints ? or did you do the TT Lower Ccontrol Arms too?


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

He just did the TT spindles and ball joints, but had to modify the latter some to 
attach to the Mk4 LCAs. If you use the TT LCA's then there's no place to hook
the Mk4 front sway, so then would need both TT struts and front sway bar.
ian


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_My guess is he soften the rear dampers a bit, and whether
he lowered or raised the tire pressures depends on where they started started
and which tires they are. With my Dunlop SP8k tires, I raised the pressure
to increase grip, and lowered to decrease it. On my Falkens, lower it to
increase grip, and raise to decrease.. which is usually the approach taken
with race tires as well. 
ian

Ian is on the money as always.....softened the rear shocks, lowered the rear tire pressure. The one good thing about this is that the TT spindles let you enjoy better handling while IMPROVING ride comfort(by allowing you to soften the rear to compensate). 
The only issue left to tackle is the negative camber with the KMAC plates. On the left side, I can get -2.5 max, on the right side, only -1.6. I dialed the left side down to -1.6 for the AutoX, but would like to run over -2 on both sides. That's my goal for this week


----------



## OstTrefftWest (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

You know more about this stuff than I ever will. Thanks for sharing your expertise with the great unwashed masses!


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_

The only issue left to tackle is the negative camber with the KMAC plates. On the left side, I can get -2.5 max, on the right side, only -1.6. I dialed the left side down to -1.6 for the AutoX, but would like to run over -2 on both sides. That's my goal for this week









I am really curious to your thoughts on these. I know your initial reaction was they had poor build quality and the hardware looked weak. Now that you are using them I wonder if these thoughts remain...


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Pic from yesterday:
http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gal..._5473
http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gal..._5718

_Modified by tyrolkid at 6:56 AM 3-15-2004_


_Modified by tyrolkid at 7:01 AM 3-15-2004_


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Pic not working, and yes, any revised thoughts on the K Mac plates?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

redid the photo as a link......jury still out on the plates....


----------



## zambien (Mar 15, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

rear tire up in the air is always a good sign!!







I guess I wonder why these didn't come from the factory like this. From the pics, it looks like the car is lowered a little bit. Is this the case?
Thanks,
Zam


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (zambien)*

Mike, sorry I may have missed it here, but are you still on the Shine springs and RSB? What is the setup you are running on those pictures? Thanks...
edited - I see the first page, but just wanted to make sure it is still the same, plus do you have the rear bar at the pictured event?


_Modified by pyce at 10:14 AM 3-15-2004_


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Mike, sorry I may have missed it here, but are you still on the Shine springs and RSB? What is the setup you are running on those pictures? Thanks...
edited - I see the first page, but just wanted to make sure it is still the same, plus do you have the rear bar at the pictured event?

_Modified by pyce at 10:14 AM 3-15-2004_

Shine springs and RSB, Koni adj, TT spindles in the pictures.


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Mike, would you be interested in trying to put back the rebound and the tire pressure (I read above you had to soften the rear) and actually remove the RSB and see what happens? Thanks...


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

I wonder how these will work with the Bilsteins. You mentioned that you softened up the rear dampers to adjust for tail wagging. Do you have a front sway, or did you leave it off with your shine setup? I also wonder if the negative camber up front is playing a significant role in the lose rear end. Any guesses as to what one might expect with a larger front sway in lieu of adjusting rear dampers?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Mike, would you be interested in trying to put back the rebound and the tire pressure (I read above you had to soften the rear) and actually remove the RSB and see what happens? Thanks...

My next move is to actually increase the rebound in the rear to full stiff and compensate with more negative camber up front. I would never remove the shine rear bar


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

i seriosuly need to learn more about this suspension stuff...
i was happy with my last setup even though it was total garbage (Weitec 40 mm) and now i want coilovers so i can adjust ride height for looks or for performance and i need to know more about spring rates, roll centers and all that other crap, is there a book i can pick up or maybe an online reference?


----------



## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (hugemikeyd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hugemikeyd* »_is there a book i can pick up or maybe an online reference?


Yes.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?&id=621342
Read at least twice, front to back, before asking questions. Chances are the answer is actually in there.


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Start Here: http://www.chris-longhurst.com....html
Then go here:


























_Modified by Stewz-GTI at 8:18 PM 3-15-2004_


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Don't forget:


----------



## RABIDRABBIT1983 (May 13, 2003)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*

Still following this....great thread


----------



## BatiGol (Apr 1, 2003)

*Re: (RABIDRABBIT1983)*

good job mike!


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (BatiGol)*

thanks for the references guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Updates?


----------



## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Kid, so are you guys going to start offering A Arms drilled for the TT and with new bushings pushed in on an exchange basis?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*

I was going to offer the TT balljoints modded to fit the G/J LCAs.......not sure how to approach it, or demand for product.... Guesstimate is $120/side on the balljoint, using new, OEM balljoints modded to fit.....


----------



## BatiGol (Apr 1, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Mike,
for full benefits, do you need the Kmac plates? What should someone expect if they did the mod without camber plates? Is it something that can be felt/measured??

thanks BRO


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (BatiGol)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BatiGol* »_Mike,
for full benefits, do you need the Kmac plates? What should someone expect if they did the mod without camber plates? Is it something that can be felt/measured??

thanks BRO

The TT spindles would be next after tires/shocks/rear swaybar are done. No need for the plates. I'm still not passing judgement on the plates until I go to Lime Rock next week and see if they hold up....


----------



## six7vdub (Mar 28, 2000)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Mike,
my guess is that if you build it, they will come...


----------



## zambien (Mar 15, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Would those balljoints be all I needed to buy for this? If you tell us what the total bill would be for parts, as well as a labor estimate in our area you would get a better response (from me at least








) This is a mod that I and many other MKIV owners are VERY interested in!


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (zambien)*

To do this mod, you need two things:
1) TT spindles complete with bearings and hubs
2) Modified TT balljoint
I can provide the modified TT balljoints. This would be (2) brand new, OEM TT balljoints modded to fit the GTI LCAs. You would be responsible for sourcing the TT spindles, be it new or used. Since this post is now bordering on a commercial post, and I don't want to violate Vortex advertising rules, please IM or email me if there is any interest. Thanks.
-Mike P


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Bump for Mike , to see how this setup felt at limerock







Bob.G


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

i have been researching this subject for a friend who i may do the conversion for on a 20AE. we will probably be using all new parts and i am wondering:
1-the TT has 2 different wheel bearings available, one is the same as Mk4 and the other is clearly TT. so, being a 20AE with an O2M tranny, would the bearing to use be the TT because of the axle design (bolt into the axle instead of a nut)?
2-would a TT hub be required to fit in the TT bearing and would that hub fit the splines on the axle or can i reuse the 20AE hub and would that fit the inside diameter of the TT wheel bearing.
3-Tyrolkid, did you swap the tierod ends left to right or just turn them upside down? i know the ends have a bend in them and are left or right only. do the tierods end up perpendicular with the car with the TT steering knuckles or are they forward or back of perpendicular.
4-wouldn't camber plates alone allow for more tire contact in a turn? i understand the benifit of a parallel lower control arm but i think the increased camber would help the tire grip more in a corner than a horizontal lower control arm. more camber allows the tire to roll just that much more keeping the contact patch the same.
5-going home to read more in my tune to win book!
just had a thought, would it be possible to drill the Mk4 control to accept the TT ball joint? i don't remember if the LCA is flat long enough for that far stud on the TT ball joint. then just have a plate built for the bottom and add some nylocks and it's done. at least i am hoping for something simple like that.


_Modified by hans j at 5:16 PM 3-24-2004_


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_i4-wouldn't camber plates alone allow for more tire contact in a turn? i understand the benifit of a parallel lower control arm but i think the increased camber would help the tire grip more in a corner than a horizontal lower control arm. more camber allows the tire to roll just that much more keeping the contact patch the same.

BUT - this does nothing to counteract the fact that the roll-center has been dropped (probably below ground with 1"+ lowering). Sure camber can be controlled, but if the roll moment is exaggerated, more roll is the consequence.
Gotta wait for Mike to report back for the rest of the answers ....


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*

Will answer all questions after Lime Rock tomorrow.


----------



## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Nice, hope it works out well.
P.S. does anyone know off hand how much used spindles off my car would sell for? w/ wheel bearings. Thanks. Thinking of offsetting the price of buying the TT ones, and having mine collect dust.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_
1-the TT has 2 different wheel bearings available, one is the same as Mk4 and the other is clearly TT. so, being a 20AE with an O2M tranny, would the bearing to use be the TT because of the axle design (bolt into the axle instead of a nut)?
_My guess would be to use the TT, since the 6spd is available in the TT as well. If you have part#'s for the bearings, I can give you a definitive answer_
2-would a TT hub be required to fit in the TT bearing and would that hub fit the splines on the axle or can i reuse the 20AE hub and would that fit the inside diameter of the TT wheel bearing.
_Good question. Not sure on the answer. Will check the next 20AE that comes in_

3-Tyrolkid, did you swap the tierod ends left to right or just turn them upside down? i know the ends have a bend in them and are left or right only. do the tierods end up perpendicular with the car with the TT steering knuckles or are they forward or back of perpendicular.
_I just turned them upside down. Tie rods are close to perpendicular. Will double check everything this weekend_
4-wouldn't camber plates alone allow for more tire contact in a turn? i understand the benifit of a parallel lower control arm but i think the increased camber would help the tire grip more in a corner than a horizontal lower control arm. more camber allows the tire to roll just that much more keeping the contact patch the same.
_Yes_
5-going home to read more in my tune to win book!
just had a thought, would it be possible to drill the Mk4 control to accept the TT ball joint? i don't remember if the LCA is flat long enough for that far stud on the TT ball joint. then just have a plate built for the bottom and add some nylocks and it's done. at least i am hoping for something simple like that.
_In theory yes. The Golf LCA is not perfectly flat, nor is the bottom of the TT balljoint, so this would require some work as well._

_Modified by hans j at 5:16 PM 3-24-2004_


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Went to Lime Rock yesterday, and the car handled ridiculously well. I cannot even tell you what a dramatic difference the camber plates and TT spindles made for corner exit traction. Coming out of the esses, the tires would usually be howling and fighting for traction. This has been *completely* eliminated. I was actually shocked, and kept trying to push harder to no avail. I was like







On other parts of the track, where I was getting clunking from my driveshafts at full G cornering, this is also gone. Theory is that the axles are now working within their intended range of motion. These two mods, including the camber plates(which now get an official http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif) are awesome. 
-Mike P


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

The modified TT balljoints will be available by request. I'm having a few sets set up on a CNC shortly.....


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Awesome awesome awesome. Glad to hear such good results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 3wheelinWolf (Mar 25, 2002)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

I'm giddy. Tyrolkid: what were your final camber results with the Kmacs, left and right? Thanks!


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_These two mods, including the camber plates(which now get an official http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif) are awesome. 
-Mike P

Great! Can you now re-comment on the fit/finnish/quality of the camber plates. I seem to recall you thought they were flimsy/bolts too small/etc.


----------



## hugemikeyd (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

good to hear it MIke, so is it safe to safe that you have the best handling MKIV GTI out there?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stewz-GTI* »_
Great! Can you now re-comment on the fit/finnish/quality of the camber plates. I seem to recall you thought they were flimsy/bolts too small/etc.


They look flimsy, but they held up. Fit and Finish is not great either, but the performance is there. We'll see about longevity on the streets of NYC......


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (3wheelinWolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3wheelinWolf* »_I'm giddy. Tyrolkid: what were your final camber results with the Kmacs, left and right? Thanks!

-1.6 on each side.....more homebrew mods coming to increase that though


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (hugemikeyd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hugemikeyd* »_good to hear it MIke, so is it safe to safe that you have the best handling MKIV GTI out there?









I wish. This is a street car, so it can only be pushed so far....Potterman pulled .94G on the tirerack skidpad during One Lap of America.......when my 245/40s go on, we'll see what happens


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Good job Mike http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif sounds like your heading in the right direction and having alot of fun .You must have been flying on that down hill sweeper setting up the straightway??? Hard work dose pay off







Bob.G


----------



## 9VW23yrs (Jun 22, 2000)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

FYI... Stasis is working on suspension packages inc. camber plates for the MK4 platform. They have some prototypes on a TT already. May is the announced release date.


----------



## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

Jorge, In no way am I disparaging Stassis because they make very high quality suspension componants, but they have been working on a suspension for the TT for a year and a half. It has always been _right around the corner_ in terms of availability. I hope they really do have a solution for the MkIV platform and that it can be applied with *and without* purchasing their entire suspension setup.


----------



## VDUBNDizzy (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (9VW23yrs)*

At the BBQ yesterday, they said they hope to have a full line of suspension products for the MK4 by WaterFest.


----------



## andrew1984 (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: (VDUBNDizzy)*

How do the TT LCA measure up to the Mk4?
Are they both the same lengths?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (andrew1984)*

Mike, 

Did you notice any change in the clearance between the shock body, and the tire? Ive only got about 5 mm and im a bit worried that changing the camber through a control arm, or spindle swap would cause some rubbing. 
The Kmac plates wouldnt change this however. Where did you get those BTW?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_Mike, 

Did you notice any change in the clearance between the shock body, and the tire? Ive only got about 5 mm and im a bit worried that changing the camber through a control arm, or spindle swap would cause some rubbing. 
The Kmac plates wouldnt change this however. Where did you get those BTW?

The relationship betweem the tire and the strut doesnt change regardless of what you do to the LCAs, balljoints, etc. Tire/strut clearance is fixed by the spindle/hub.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Yes, is the clearance the same on the TT spindle?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (enginerd)*

yes


----------



## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

SO now that this thread is back ontop, any updates on performance, issues, concearns, complaints, etc...


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Car is holding up fine, no issues or complaints to speak of. I'm bolting on Kumho Victoracers and heading to Watkins Glen in a few weeks....this project has been a success thus far.


----------



## oldmanTDI (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

Kid I gotta save up for a set of these http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (oldmanTDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oldmanTDI* »_Kid I gotta save up for a set of these http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

To think how much you bashed me on TDIclub when I first started posting....sigh....


----------



## OstTrefftWest (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

So are Shine fronts necessary to get the control arms parallel or better with the TT spindles? I know you're just barely past parallel now....


----------



## Imola Yellow GTi (Oct 27, 2000)

*Re: (OstTrefftWest)*

what difference will it make to convert the entire front to a TT setup?
are we talking about the FWD TT or the AWD TT setup?


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (Imola Yellow GTi)*

tyrolkid, in the first comparison pictures i notice that the TT hub for the axle is smaller than the VW, did you change out the hub to fit the VW axle?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_tyrolkid, in the first comparison pictures i notice that the TT hub for the axle is smaller than the VW, did you change out the hub to fit the VW axle?

The hubs are the same size....


----------



## BananaCo (Sep 16, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

just wondering how would this compare to the h2sport spindle?


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (BananaCo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BananaCo* »_just wondering how would this compare to the h2sport spindle?

The TT spindle is avaible now, the H2Sport isn't.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

I had a little trouble getting new TT spindles, but I finally got them (came painted nice and black). Did the Install on my friends 20th AE and it came out pretty good.
His car sits about half inch lower than stock 20th (KW V2) and control arms are nearly level. Plus he is running .5 degree negative camber on the front and it handles great! No more corner dive when going into a turn. Now if Peloquinn will get on finishing the 02M diff.....


----------



## Blue.Jester.02Gti (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_I had a little trouble getting new TT spindles, but I finally got them (came painted nice and black). Did the Install on my friends 20th AE and it came out pretty good.
His car sits about half inch lower than stock 20th (KW V2) and control arms are nearly level. Plus he is running .5 degree negative camber on the front and it handles great! No more corner dive when going into a turn. Now if Peloquinn will get on finishing the 02M diff.....

nice, im going to be lowering my car soon with KW's also (v1's though) how much did you pick up the TT spindles for? did you get them at the dealership? TIA


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (Blue.Jester.02Gti)*

I got them through my dealership, they list 295.33 each side and I had to pay a little extra to get them shipped.


----------



## Blue.Jester.02Gti (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_I got them through my dealership, they list 295.33 each side and I had to pay a little extra to get them shipped.

damn.. what do you think of junkyard finds? any problems specifically that i should look out for?


----------



## cburkart (Jan 10, 2000)

*Re: (Blue.Jester.02Gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Blue.Jester.02Gti* »_any problems specifically that i should look out for?

There was a recall on a number of TT's for replacement of suspension components, though I'd guess that almost every owner would have gone in to have the replacement done. I don't know exactly what what replaced, though; not sure if that included the spindles.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (cburkart)*

I read somewhere it was the control arm that was recalled, possible that I read it in this post even. I have heard spindles go for about 200 from a junk yard but look out for bent stuff (why else would a TT be in a junk yard?) and that would come complete like Tyrolkid got. I did all new parts and it ended up listing around 1300 total for parts for a 5 speed. Thats for brand new spindles, hubs, bearings and ball joints. I also found that the strut spreader wasn't needed on the brand new spindles with the KW V2s, but they clamped down tight.


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*

Question for the folks who've had the ball joint off the LCA. 
Does any other Mk4 have slots in the LCA like this? 








The above photo is from an R32 which takes its LCAs and spindles from the Audi TT
and I'm curious if those slots are unique to these LCAs. If the slots allow 1/4 inch
of movement, my rough calculations say that should be worth nearly .6 degrees of
negative camber. 
ian


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

no, i was thinking of sloting the vw ones but there really isn't much material and i did't want to compromise the strength of it. just by doing the TT spindle swap i got -.5 degree camber and thats with the car lowered.


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_ ...... If the slots allow 1/4 inch
of movement, my rough calculations say that should be worth nearly .6 degrees of negative camber..... 

I have the "virtual" data from Mike about these and 1/4 of inch movement downthere resulted in precisely 0,567" of negative camber gain.


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (pyce)*

Sounds about right.. I used 0.25" movement at the end of a 25" arm so ASIN(0.25/25) = 0.573 degrees
I still need to take actual measurements of the R32's suspension geometry, and find out exactly how much it
really can slide back and forth there. I wear the outside edge of these squishy Goodyear F1's something
awful though so I'm looking forward to picking up some more negative camber.
ian


----------



## Blue.Jester.02Gti (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hans j* »_ I did all new parts and it ended up listing around 1300 total for parts for a 5 speed. Thats for brand new spindles, hubs, bearings and ball joints.

that seems like a lot, but i bet its worth it. (I'm not too knowledgable on this, but im learning from these threads(thanks guys!)!







) what hubs and bearings did you have to replace? in re-reading tyrolkid's post i didn't see him mention replacing those. Also this might be a more in-depth question in need of a new thread.. but im getting the KW v1's soon and i have a front-sway and rear-sway that i plan on putting in all at the same time. if you could, would you do this at the same time, or would you wait for the suspension to settle? im not going for a crazy drop or anything btw.. maybe a little more than the min spec drop (53 mm).. TIA!










_Modified by Blue.Jester.02Gti at 5:11 PM 6-8-2004_


----------



## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: (Blue.Jester.02Gti)*

what I have learned so far is that the front sway really is not needed unless you drop so much that you need clearance.
$1300 are dealership prices. If we had the part numbers we could probably get a quote from http://www.vwparts.com and cut around 30-40% of that price.
I am planning on KW V3's with my Neuspeed rear sway and have been reading in here as well









there is a deal in the classifieds for $500 for 10K miles PSS9's from canada ... not sure if I would really want a used suspension.


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (chaugner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chaugner* »_what I have learned so far is that the front sway really is not needed unless you drop so much that you need clearance.










_Quote, originally posted by *chaugner* »_If we had the part numbers we could probably get a quote from ... 

Well ... seeing as several folks have already sourced these parts, this shouldn't be that difficult to obtain ....


_Modified by f1forkvr6 at 9:10 PM 6-8-2004_


----------



## Blue.Jester.02Gti (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (chaugner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chaugner* »_what I have learned so far is that the front sway really is not needed unless you drop so much that you need clearance.
$1300 are dealership prices. If we had the part numbers we could probably get a quote from http://www.vwparts.com and cut around 30-40% of that price.
I am planning on KW V3's with my Neuspeed rear sway and have been reading in here as well








there is a deal in the classifieds for $500 for 10K miles PSS9's from canada ... not sure if I would really want a used suspension.

yeah, im hoping we can get that price down lol, i got the front sway for 75 from a friend so i cant complain hehe
used suspension is already broken in at least heh, can go straight to an alignment shop


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (Blue.Jester.02Gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Blue.Jester.02Gti* »_
what hubs and bearings did you have to replace? in re-reading tyrolkid's post i didn't see him mention replacing those.


I replaced everything with new parts. That way he has his stock setup complete, when you pull a hub it destroys the bearing. It would be cheaper just to use your old hubs but if you ever went back to stock you would need new bearings in your old spindles.

_Quote, originally posted by *Blue.Jester.02Gti* »_
but im getting the KW v1's soon and i have a front-sway and rear-sway that i plan on putting in all at the same time. if you could, would you do this at the same time, or would you wait for the suspension to settle? 


you can but then yoiu will not know what each part added to the handling as a seperate piece.

_Quote, originally posted by *chaugner* »_
what I have learned so far is that the front sway really is not needed unless you drop so much that you need clearance.


the cars i see that are really low are a 20th and a 337 and we found the sway bar is a little bit different (maybe to go with the lower stock suspension). i have seen a right axle rubbing on the body though. i do remember a 5 speed that was really low and the stock bar rubbed, aftermarket bars should be good though.


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_Question for the folks who've had the ball joint off the LCA. Does any other Mk4 have slots in the LCA like this? 
(photo here)
....The above photo is from an R32 which takes its LCAs and spindles from the Audi TT
and I'm curious if those slots are unique to these LCAs. If the slots allow 1/4 inch
of movement, my rough calculations say that should be worth nearly .6 degrees of
negative camber. 
ian


I spent some time through the Bentley manual this weekend and it does not show (on the picture) whether they are slots or just holes, but if you read the procedure for disassembling the LCA, it says that the position of the three bolts has to be marked somehow as to be able to position them in the same place again....... which makes me think that is those were simply holes, there is not need to mark anything, so the holes must be some sort of slots. This is Bentley Manual for 99-02 MKIV...
Then I spent some time in a book shop, trying to find some specific books on suspension geometry and happen to spot two books about tuning Water-cooled VWs. Both were little old, covering only MkI, II and III, but they both specifically said that ALL Water-cooled VWs do have slots on the LCA, so those slots could be used to gain some camber.
I also spent some time in a local shop that happen to have a LCA, old one, very rusty and nobody knew from which model VW is, but they were sure it was from old VW. That LCA had slots just like the ones you are showing on the picture. So, I have not seen my LCAs yet, but have the above reasons to believe that we (A4) may have this opportunity of gaining about half of a degree camber.... Next step would be to really go down and take out a bolt, but it is not going to happen soon...


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: (pyce)*

No slots in the LCA of the mk4. The holes for the balljoint bolts are larger than the bolts, so you can still loosen and pull the wheel outward for maybe -.1-.2 or so, but that's about it.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (pyce)*

Most earlier VW's have slotted LCA's but the Mk4 does not, here again it might be possible to put your own slots in but I really don't know how much material integrity could be lost. The book says to mark them so you don't have to do an alignment, usually you can get it pretty close to where it was but I alwaysmake customers get an alignment after I do front end work, tires don't last long if it isn't done! Camber plates are going to be the best way to get camber (building mine right now) but the TT spindles sure make the car handle well with coil-overs! 
Oh and edit to my previous post I have seen a little axle rub on the 20th cars, adjustable end links will take care of that.


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (tyrolkid)*

How hard is to make those holes into slight slots then?


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (pyce)*

On the ball joints I would only do it in a mill, that way it would not move around and be perfect, LCA's maybe a good rat tail file the same diameter and some elbow grease, it wouldn't be exact but close. But don't forget that VW didn't put those slots for some odd reason so the material isn't really built for slots.


----------



## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*

Hans, why do you think then VW had those slots on older models and decided not to have them on A4s? .... And had re-introduced them on the R32? It does not make sense to not have them only on one model?


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (pyce)*

I can't speak to the Mk4, but they didn't exactly "reintroduce them on the R32". The R32 has TT forged LCAs
which presumably have always had the slots. Having slots in a forged piece doesn't make one
worry about material thickness and such. The Mk3 and Mk4 LCA's are pressed steel so the question
is how far can you expand those slots without significantly weakening the end of the LCA.
BTW, someone took their R32 to have it aligned and pulled both sides out and discovered that
one side moves quite a bit more than the other for some odd reason. 
ian


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Hans, why do you think then VW had those slots on older models and decided not to have them on A4s? 

Well the way the suspension attaches is different on the Mk4, a clamping type rather than the 2 bolts through the steering knuckle (spindle, wheel bearing housing, all the same), but other than that I don't know. On early rabbits I don't recall any slots (some ball joints rivited on), Mk2 and Mk3 I think I remember seeing slots. Camber on Mk1 adjusted by the upper bolt that connects the strut to the steering knuckle, Mk2 maybe had both depending on what year or strut design, Mk3 3 just the ball joint, there is some slop in the bolts but not enough. This is just what I remember and I could be wrong, but at least close.

_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_.... And had re-introduced them on the R32? It does not make sense to not have them only on one model?

They were available first on the TT which would be considered "a sports car" I guess, so maybe VW/Audi wanted to give that adjustment. And since the R32 is built on all the TT stuff, it too has the adjustment.


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (hans j)*

Just a side note for anyone who is looking to upgrade their 2.0 or TDi front brakes, I have the old steering knuckles off the 20th that I converted for sale, complete with wheel hubs. He wants 400 shipped for the set.


----------



## HIDGolf (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (hans j)*

bump for great post! I was going to do the 20th/337 set up on my TDi, but after reading this post...this is something to really save for.
Has anyone used VW Racing bushings with this set up? Or tired it without a front sway bar we wouldnt need to change the front struts?
Thanks again guys!


----------



## kndonlee (Sep 6, 2003)

So ultimately, if i've understood everything correctly, installing the TT spindles will allow our Mk4s to be lowered without adversely affecting the roll center, and will allow more negative camber to be dialed in?


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (kndonlee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kndonlee* »_So ultimately, if i've understood everything correctly, installing the TT spindles will allow our Mk4s to be lowered without adversely affecting the roll center, and will allow more negative camber to be dialed in?

No.
It'd let you lower the car an inch or so and you'd be back to where you 
started, which is basically compromised handling. The problem is the
GTI/20AE/337 suspension geometry is already skewed up from the
factory. You're already starting at a disadvantage. The real gain with 
this mod is if you *don't* lower the car. Then you get a vastly superior 
roll center and camber curve as compared to a normal GTI. 
ian


----------



## Imola Yellow GTi (Oct 27, 2000)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

if only h2sport releases their spindle... they had some pics but no final product


----------



## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (Imola Yellow GTi)*

From what I understand the h2sport drop spindle has no advantage over
the TT spindle in terms of relocating the ball joint. 
ian


----------



## kndonlee (Sep 6, 2003)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_No.
It'd let you lower the car an inch or so and you'd be back to where you 
started, which is basically compromised handling. The problem is the
GTI/20AE/337 suspension geometry is already skewed up from the
factory. You're already starting at a disadvantage. The real gain with 
this mod is if you *don't* lower the car. Then you get a vastly superior 
roll center and camber curve as compared to a normal GTI. 
ian

Beautiful!
I did goto the dealership the other day, and it seemed that new spindles for VWs would be around 350ish a piece! So buying brandnew parts from the Audi dealership assuming the same price range would be a good 800bucks for spindles and the other piece that needed to be modified to fit?


----------



## hans j (Nov 30, 2002)

*Re: (kndonlee)*

Yeah it should be around that if you reuse your wheel hubs (completly possible). http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kndonlee (Sep 6, 2003)

*Re: (hans j)*

wowee... 800 for the spindle mod. gotta save up...
and argh, trying tofigure out what would be a reasonably great suspension setup for fairly cheap. 
From what I've gathered here, lowering = bad, but seems like most kits out there all lower the car a little bit. 
Anyway would the TT spindles coupled with Shine's springs and bilstein's struts and maybe a stock rear, think this could be had for around 1100ish? and have a pretty decent auto x setup?


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (Daemon42)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daemon42* »_From what I understand the h2sport drop spindle has no advantage over
the TT spindle in terms of relocating the ball joint. 

According to H2Sport "they are designed to correct for the change in front suspension geometry that the Mk4s get when lowered"


----------



## HIDGolf (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (kndonlee)*

KNDONLEE
I would decide if you want to do the TT LCAs before you do anything to your suspension. If you dont wanna do the TT LCAs, you will have to modify your ball joints. Adding the TT LCAs will require installing TT struts as the TT/R32 attach the front roll bar to the front strut instead of the lower LCA as found on other A4 brethern. But by doing the extra work, you will not have to modify your ball joints. Front struts are not very inexpensive, so if you going to buy them, try to only buy them once. 
From what I have read here, installing the rear anti roll bar such as a shine piece would be highly advised with this "advanced" front suspension. But I would not add just this without doing the struts/shocks first. If you wanna save some cash, the springs would prob be the best place to do this. I have experienced streetable increases with upgrading to Bilstein HD shocks with stock TDi springs.
I already have Bilstein HD struts/shocks, so Ill add the shine rear bar or hopefully an adjustable unit for when driving in snow. Then save for the front suspension overhaul. For us 2.0 and 1.9 guys this is a bit more expensive as we need to purchase front calipers and wheels to clear the 312mm rotors. I was already planning to do a 337 set up so I purchased the 16x7" TT 5 spokes to try to keep the weight down/comfort up for my 90hp TDi, remember only some 16s" clear the 312mm brakes.


----------



## kndonlee (Sep 6, 2003)

*Re: (HIDGolf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HIDGolf* »_KNDONLEE
I would decide if you want to do the TT LCAs before you do anything to your suspension. If you dont wanna do the TT LCAs, you will have to modify your ball joints. Adding the TT LCAs will require installing TT struts as the TT/R32 attach the front roll bar to the front strut instead of the lower LCA as found on other A4 brethern. But by doing the extra work, you will not have to modify your ball joints. Front struts are not very inexpensive, so if you going to buy them, try to only buy them once. 
From what I have read here, installing the rear anti roll bar such as a shine piece would be highly advised with this "advanced" front suspension. But I would not add just this without doing the struts/shocks first. If you wanna save some cash, the springs would prob be the best place to do this. I have experienced streetable increases with upgrading to Bilstein HD shocks with stock TDi springs.
I already have Bilstein HD struts/shocks, so Ill add the shine rear bar or hopefully an adjustable unit for when driving in snow. Then save for the front suspension overhaul. For us 2.0 and 1.9 guys this is a bit more expensive as we need to purchase front calipers and wheels to clear the 312mm rotors. I was already planning to do a 337 set up so I purchased the 16x7" TT 5 spokes to try to keep the weight down/comfort up for my 90hp TDi, remember only some 16s" clear the 312mm brakes.

So do it once do it right mentality, right?
TT LCA,
TT Spindle
TT Ball joint
TT Struts & Springs or some other tt setup?
And a Rear Sway Bar would do the trick?


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## cab5 (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (kndonlee)*

I am selling my TT spindles complete off my 20th AE that I am selling.
They have 7k on them. Hans j was the installer. They will be off taken off on tuesday. $850 shipped ready to install. It cost me 1k with purchasing every thing at dealer cost.


_Modified by cab5 at 1:46 AM 8-8-2004_


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## HIDGolf (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (kndonlee)*

Remember if you dont have a 1.8T or VR6 you will need calipers too. Bearings maybe needed...this is something I have yet to confirm for the "slow" MK4s as I think they are different.
If anyone thinks I maybe incorrect, please cut in as my experience is based off only what I have read and gathered from the vortex and my bentley manual.


_Modified by HIDGolf at 10:39 AM 8-10-2004_


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## HIDGolf (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (HIDGolf)*

has anyone installed the TT LCAs with the front TT anti roll bar? Are the 225hp and 150/180hp bars the same? How about quattro or Frontrak? Im guessing the 3.2 V6 TT has a more agressive front bar?


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## Daemon42 (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (HIDGolf)*

To use the TT front sway you need TT front struts, as there's
no attachment point on the TT LCAs. 
ian


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## HIDGolf (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Daemon42)*

thanks for restating that. I forgot to include that with my post. I want to use as many used OE parts possible to try to keep costs down, but I dont know about the differences between the 3 different TT models.
The V6 has bigger brakes, but I imagine the springs, struts would be different too. If anyone can give a bit of insight so those who are considering the entire TT front suspension can start planning ahead. I will be adding the 312mm 4cyl TT brakes.
My goal is to have all the TT parts by the time my Bilstein HDs wear out so I can install TT Bilstein HD/Koni Special Yellow/etc front struts.


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## HIDGolf (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (kndonlee)*

bump...has anyone else done this swap? I just replaced my motor and have to find some new motivation to put money into my lowly TDi


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

WARNING:
We just did the TT spindle conversion on a 6 speed 20AE mk4, and the axle bolts MUST be modified to make the conversion work. Pics and additional writeup shortly. 
Also- Swap the tie rod ends left>>>right, right...left. It makes for better tie rod end geometry.


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_WARNING:
Also- Swap the tie rod ends left>>>right, right...left. It makes for better tie rod end geometry.

Just for the 20th AE's? or for all of them? 
Woot.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
Just for the 20th AE's? or for all of them? 
Woot.

I would swap left to right on all of them just to be sure....


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## NYC20AE (Jul 2, 2003)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Tyrolkid and I did this to my 20AE. I'll let him get into the technical aspect of the issues we had doing this on a 6 speed car when he posts it elsewhere, but these things are great. Looks like I have somewhere around 2 degrees of camber (Haven't done the alignment yet) and the car actually rides better over bumps, more solid and less of a THUNK over big bumps. Turn in is nice and crisp.... It was well worth the effort.
If you want to get this done, bring it to Tyrolsport. He also did my Peloquin at the same time. Top notch work. Can't wait to hit the track this year and see what difference it makes there!


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## JoeVeeDubber (Mar 15, 2002)

For those who want to know, here are the part numbers from AUDI...
8N0 407 151D - Left LCA
8N0 407 152D - Right LCA
8N0 407 255E - Left Spindle
8N0 407 256B - Right Spindle
8N0 407 365B - Balljoints x 2
These are most updated recent part numbers.
Enjoy!


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (JoeVeeDubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeVeeDubber* »_For those who want to know, here are the part numbers from AUDI...
8N0 407 151D - Left LCA
8N0 407 152D - Right LCA
8N0 407 255E - Left Spindle
8N0 407 256B - Right Spindle
8N0 407 365B - Balljoints x 2
These are most updated recent part numbers.

For the lazy! Direct links to ImpexFap.com for the parts








8N0 407 151D - Left LCA
8N0 407 152D - Right LCA
8N0 407 255E - Left Spindle
8N0 407 256B - Right Spindle
8N0 407 365B - Balljoints x 2
Wheel Bearing kit (bearing, c-clip and nut) - unknown part #
Guess what I'm doing!















EDIT: Prices
My local dealership has the spindles for the R32 for $287 each. $574 before taxes.
Impex has the parts (linked above) for $230 and $246 = $475 w/o shipping.
EDIT2: Updated links to Impex due to new website and added link to Wheel bearing kit.


_Modified by eggroller at 10:48 AM 3-20-2005_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

I could be wrong, but I still don't think I am. 
Take a look at the picture below (it's the best I could find). The bottom of the spindle / knuckle is fixed. The steering arm sits above this fixed point and therefore moves in the same direction as the top of the strut when adjusting camber. So the steering arm would move in with the top of the strut, right? But the tie rod is fixed in length! So now the steering arm is pushed out as the top of the strut moves in.








Or another way: Put your elbows on a table. Point your hands straight up. Your elbows are the balljoint. Pull your hands straight back for caster. Now tilt them in towards your head. The distance between your wrists is less than at your elbows. This means the tie rods are pushing out (trying to maintain the same length) at the back of the wheel.
]


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (AutoXMan)*

Don't forget that the end of the tie rod is a ball/socket, so it has movement without changing it's position relative to the rack.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Mike ..... how accurately you can measure the angle between the strut and the let's say brake surface of the TT and the A4 application? Is it remotely possible that there is some built-in camber in the TT cast, more than in the A4 cast?


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (pyce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Mike ..... how accurately you can measure the angle between the strut and the let's say brake surface of the TT and the A4 application? Is it remotely possible that there is some built-in camber in the TT cast, more than in the A4 cast? 

The casting itself does not have any additional negative camber, as when I installed them originally using the stock GTI/Jetta LCAs, the camber values did not change. The TT LCAs allow for the additional static negative camber. On top of that, the TT LCAs mount the balljoint at an angle relative to the the stock LCAs. The best way to describe the difference is as follows:
Stick your arm out and have your hand parallel to the ground, palm down. This is the stock G/J left side lower control arm, with your body being the frame of the car, and your hand being the mating surface of the balljoint and LCA. Rotate your hand about 15deg counterclockwise. This is how the TT LCA mounts the balljoint to the spindle. By the looks of it, it creates a different geometry in it's arc, not just in the static negative camber and camber curve.


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## pyce (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (TyrolSport2)*

Then I wonder why some camber could not be introduced directly form making the cast different? I mean, if anyone wants to make a new cast as to produce those, why not get some camber right from there, so no camber plates are needed and the rubber bushing could be left in there.


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## kenavery7 (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Does a 337 already have the TT spindles??


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (kenavery7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kenavery7* »_Does a 337 already have the TT spindles?? 
No it does not have the TT spindles. However, HansJ retrofitted the TT spindles into a 337 for a Vortexer.


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## kenavery7 (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (eggroller)*

hey, it was worth a try right??


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## gelatin (Apr 26, 2003)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (craig40v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *craig40v* »_how bout for this ride height?

dude that sucks. you'd have to go around all the road kill...

autoxman, sounds like you are saying that adding negative camber gives toe out?
edit...::...er, pushing out on the back of the wheel is toe in...so you mean its giving toe in?

_Modified by gelatin at 2:19 PM 2-23-2005_


_Modified by gelatin at 9:19 AM 2-24-2005_


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (TyrolSport2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TyrolSport2* »_<edit>On top of that, the TT LCAs mount the balljoint at an angle relative to the the stock LCAs. The best way to describe the difference is as follows:
Stick your arm out and have your hand parallel to the ground, palm down. This is the stock G/J left side lower control arm, with your body being the frame of the car, and your hand being the mating surface of the balljoint and LCA. Rotate your hand about 15deg counterclockwise. This is how the TT LCA mounts the balljoint to the spindle. By the looks of it, it creates a different geometry in it's arc, not just in the static negative camber and camber curve.

Picture of the TT LCA balljoint angle as described by TyrolSport2:








I have not installed them on my car, yet. I am trying to source a set of spindles for a reasonable price. Therefore, no comparison pictures of the OEM LCA for my 2000 GTI, yet.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (eggroller)*

*eggroller* - does your TT CA's have a knub on the front edge close to where the stock sway links to the stock CA's?
Like in these pics:

edited

If so, does it look possible to drill and tap for use with stock strut and sway?
Thanks,
Rey

_Modified by elRey at 10:28 PM 4-11-2005_


_Modified by elRey at 11:58 PM 4-11-2005_


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (elRey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elRey* »_*eggroller* - does your TT CA's have a knub on the front edge close to where the stock sway links to the stock CA's?
<deleted pictures>
If so, does it look possible to drill and tap for use with stock strut and sway?
Thanks,
Rey
One of my control arms has the nub and the other does not. Therefore, I am screwed...I have to figure out another way to mount the front swaybar. 
Tyrolkid did drill and tap a set of TT control arms for his car in part #2 of this Audi TT Suspension installation here is a Link


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## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (eggroller)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eggroller* »_One of my control arms has the nub and the other does not. Therefore, I am screwed...I have to figure out another way to mount the front swaybar. 
Tyrolkid did drill and tap a set of TT control arms for his car in part #2 of this Audi TT Suspension installation here is a Link

try stiff springs and no front sway?
The "bent" angle on the tt lca is probably more for the ball joint angle rather than a tweek to the geometry/arc. The inner mounting points, and the strut andgle shoudl really control the arc. If the sprindle has a lower mounting point and a different angle, then the ball joint could run ouut of angle of travel. This angle probably compensates for this and prevents the ball joint from maxing out againts a stop. can anyone confirm with the stock LCA's, and a modified VW ball joint does the ball joint max out anywhere in the travel?


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

Looks like we need some of our CAD masters to whip up another model that can be played with to go over these points.


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## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*

Just completed the install on my AE...
The axle bolts had to be shortened about 3/4 of an inch...
Spindles were from a 2000 TT.


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## david_594 (May 16, 2004)

TodCP, do you get any rubbing at full lock turning?
I did it on my 2k jetta and at full lock I get something rubbing....
On a side note I thinkt he proper way to do this mod would involve swapping the tie rods(or just the ends) from the right side to the left side. By just flipping the tie rod upside down it actually makes the steering ratio a little tighter.... which could be the cause of my rubbing.
TT spindles with vr6 brakes will also clear 15" rims if and only if you cut 1/4" off the bottoms of the studs that attach the ball join to the control arms. 


_Modified by david_594 at 3:25 PM 3-14-2007_


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## H2oWerker (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: (david_594)*


_Quote, originally posted by *david_594* »_On a side note I thinkt he proper way to do this mod would involve swapping the tie rods(or just the ends) from the right side to the left side. By just flipping the tie rod upside down it actually makes the steering ratio a little tighter.... which could be the cause of my rubbing._Modified by david_594 at 3:25 PM 3-14-2007_

Tyrolkid just covered that in this thread. In Dec. of 04

_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_WARNING:
We just did the TT spindle conversion on a 6 speed 20AE mk4, and the axle bolts MUST be modified to make the conversion work. Pics and additional writeup shortly. 
Also- Swap the tie rod ends left>>>right, right...left. It makes for better tie rod end geometry.


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_
I would swap left to right on all of them just to be sure....

As with any major modification the devils in the details.
This modification makes for wicked fun!
Thanks tyrolkid.


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## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

Yep....
But no one could remember how much of the bolt had to be cut so that is why I added the measurement comment...
Mike at Tyrolsport deserves credit for sure. Great guy and very helpful to me.
Also, per Mike later update I swapped the tie rod ends left to right.
Also went with the Defcon and Powerflex bushing mod for the front bushing and TT rear bushing. Works very nearly as well as my former H2sport spherical bearings.


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## topquarkpc (Jun 9, 2006)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*


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## 20aeman (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: Audi TT spindle install on MK4 GTI, pics and small writeup (tyrolkid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tyrolkid* »_WARNING:
We just did the TT spindle conversion on a 6 speed 20AE mk4, and the axle bolts MUST be modified to make the conversion work. Pics and additional writeup shortly. 
Also- Swap the tie rod ends left>>>right, right...left. It makes for better tie rod end geometry.

Back from the dead! Just thought I'd point out that there are several different bearings for the Audi TT spindle. The bearings have different part numbers, and cars that came with an 18 inch wheel package from the factory will have the appropriate bearing for the 20ths. If getting TT spindles, your best bet is to find R32 spindles, if you don't want to replace wheel bearings or modify the axle bolt. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 20thGTI12 (Feb 18, 2005)

I was curious instead of using audi tt spindles...coudln't you use audi tt or r32 lca's instead??


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

On the last two posts... Yes, you can use the cast R/TT control arms, the downside is, unless you find yourself a set of struts with a sway mount, you loose a front bar. Not that this is a downside for some, but something you should know.

On the bearings. The R/TT appear to have higher test bearings, they're another $30 a piece from a run of the mill mk4 bearing. I run the R bearings but that's because I track the car. Both 5spd and 6spd hubs (bolt vs nut) will fit in either bearing.


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## at_the_speed_of_2.l0w (Jun 18, 2006)

20thGTI12 said:


> I was curious instead of using audi tt spindles...coudln't you use audi tt or r32 lca's instead??


The benefit in the swap is the spindle. The lca's do not affect the camber curve the way the spindle does.


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

at_the_speed_of_2.l0w said:


> The benefit in the swap is the spindle. The lca's do not affect the camber curve the way the spindle does.


They do, however, give you extra static camber adjustment, and the ability to use the R/TT ball joints, which are far beefier. Neither of these are bad things.


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## at_the_speed_of_2.l0w (Jun 18, 2006)

A small static camber adjustment, yes. But you can't use the TT ball joints with the standard MKIV spindles. It does make for a simpler swap assuming you take the sway bar issue into account. I still run the original MKIV control arms and therefore have to use modified TT ball joints. It's really not a difficult mod though. It's really all about the spindle though. I ran a camber plate before the swap so camber wasn't the advantage. 

I have to say that in all the suspension modifications I have done: Camber plates, spherical bearings all around, Advance Design custom shocks, etc. The spindle swap is still the mod that changed the attitude of the suspension the most; more than all the rest combined.


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## 20thGTI12 (Feb 18, 2005)

all of the answers are good points but, i'm looking to get rid of bump steer. I want the tie rods to be upside down...if that makes sense.:beer: I have air ride so im trying to get rid of binding and stress when I lay the frame.


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Spindles won't do anything for the binding. They don't change the geometry in relation of axle to strut.


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## at_the_speed_of_2.l0w (Jun 18, 2006)

...and the tierods do not connect to the control arms.

Perhaps if Mike (tyrolkid) were able to repost the pictures you could see what is achieved with this mod.


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## Adler[russoturisto] (Oct 21, 2009)

Pictures you can find here: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a4/audi-tt-spindle.htm


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## tee-dee-eye (Sep 8, 2011)

sorry to bring up an old thread, but this seems to answer my problem atm. to do this conversion on a TDI 130pd 6 speed, all i need is the tt spindle FWD or AWD (any particular year?), tt ball joint, tt LCA and the tt sway bar with droplinks.

no problems with shafts or anything else? or tie rods (which will be swapped left with right)?

thx for the help and excuse my ignorance....new on here


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

You'll also need the appropriate shocks to mount those endlinks from the swaybar to.


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## iae21 (Feb 8, 2002)

rex_racer said:


> You'll also need the appropriate shocks to mount those endlinks from the swaybar to.


Not true.

I would go for an EARLY Audi TT, preferably a 2000 or 2001. Those models have a 'nub' on the front of the control arms. That 'nub' is what you drill/tap into in order to utilize your stock sway bar links. You do not need to buy different front struts for the sway bar. 

You can get the spindles from ANY year Audi TT, but the control arms MUST be from a 2000 or maybe a 2001. 

I did this recently to my car. I put new bearings in the spindles, new bushing in the control arms, and I had to buy new Audi TT ball joints. 

And to give you a heads up, the bushings for the control arms are different for some TT models. The earlier model had a different bushing than the later one. MJM Autohaus has pics to show you for comparison. Make sure you order those. 

Comparison of Spindles (Stock vs Audi TT vs H2Sport)










Any other questions, PM me.


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## Imola Yellow GTi (Oct 27, 2000)

iae21 said:


> Not true.
> 
> I would go for an EARLY Audi TT, preferably a 2000 or 2001. Those models have a 'nub' on the front of the control arms. That 'nub' is what you drill/tap into in order to utilize your stock sway bar links. You do not need to buy different front struts for the sway bar.


But if you have a coilover like KW's, the ARB shock mount provision is there. And if you go with Hotchkis front ARB, they are positioned and shaped like the TT's.


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## 03_uni-B (Sep 6, 2005)

great write up :thumbup:


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## Guyver96 (Jan 17, 2007)

Sorry for bringing this back from the dead but, I recently undertook this swap and found that NOT ALL TT SPINDLES WORK! I have 03 spindles I needed to get new bearings and hubs for the swap to work cause of the difference in axle nut/bolt issue... It'd be nice if the OP could include that part in his write up... I see a lot of ppl saying the tt spindles are expensive or cant be found... I found mine on ebay for 60 and 80 bucks.... Either way its a good idea to get new bearings and hubs if your there.. all in all I've been able to get everything relatively cheap... I've shopped around a lot so getting decent prices... Hubs I paid about 40 bucks a piece on Rockauto the bearing 25 at local parts store, ball joints I haven't gotten to yet. 

Oh yea the pictures aren't working either..


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

All TT/R spindles work... the hubs are what doesn't necessarily match up. And it's a 10 year old thread... so the pictures are dead... oh darn.


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

Glad this thread got bumped! Really great information in here 

I hope to do TT spindles with spherical bearings and tubular control arms as part of a future track car setup (once I can afford to buy a new DD to relieve my MkIV from street legal duties) http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_208_221&products_id=1525


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## PROSTO. (Sep 10, 2007)

Bump from dead

Just finished doing R32 lca/spindle swap on my 20th. Everything went in without issues, however when driving at ride height the entire car shakes, similiar to an axle bind. It goes away when aired all the way up. I put new ball joints and tie rod ends while doing the swap. I kept the hubs that came with the spindles. Car was just aligned and still same issues. Any suggestions?


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## Guyver96 (Jan 17, 2007)

Prosto i had the same issue couldnt pinpoint it 100% but i believe its the axles. I tried the autoparts steel rod style axle and it was insanely bad so had to go get some local junker parts issue went away with oem axles. But the lowering kills them. Fyi I'm on tt coilovers,spindles and controlarms and notched frame on my beetle , anylower than i am now my tires rub the Inner wheel well. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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