# KMD injectors, or so they say?



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

Lots of confusion has been going around the community about these "KMD" FSI injectors, and a lot of people have been getting ripped off. So I thought I would clear some things up. KMD injectors are actually oem RS4 injectors from Audi, part # 079906036D they list at $161.63 each. Which is far less then the $950 they sell them for. Just thought I would clear that up and save people some $$$$.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Are you sure about this ?
I though RS4 injectors have lower flow than ours (or S3 ones for that matter)


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## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: KMD injectors, or so they say? (FSI-King)*

so...you can buy a set of injectors to run big turbo for 650 from audi?


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## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*FV-QR*

are you sure they are oem, and not modified to flow more?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*


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## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (dubsker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsker* »_are you sure they are oem, and not modified to flow more?
 yes they are oem , they have been confirmed via flow and spray pattern and I actually installed a set for a customer last week and kmd forgot to scratch off one of the audi signs completly and on another they missed a few digits on the part number.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_ yes they are oem , they have been confirmed via flow and spray pattern and I actually installed a set for a customer last week and kmd forgot to scratch off one of the audi signs completly and on another they missed a few digits on the part number.

So what is the flow difference and do they fit our cylinder head without modification ?


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## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

yes Arin you got it!! lol wow


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## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
So what is the flow difference and do they fit our cylinder head without modification ?

I dont have the exact figures in front of me but they bolt right in. The spray pattern is different so the cold start sucks and the cars tend to spit out smoke


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
I dont have the exact figures in front of me but they bolt right in. The spray pattern is different so the cold start sucks and the cars tend to spit out smoke

Hmmm...But maybe on a crown piston engine things might be different ?


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

can't wait to see how kmd might spin this... 
if this is indeed the case I might be getting these injectors quicker than I thought


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## angryone (Sep 9, 2007)

*Re: KMD injectors, or so they say? (FSI-King)*

If this is the case, that's pretty underhanded on KMD's part. It makes me glad I'm still waiting for new developments.
I suppose this explains in part why the big turbo guys with gt30's aren't pulling much better times than those using gt2871's.
The question is, when is someone going to have legit higher-flowing FSI injectors available for the big turbos?


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_









W







W


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
W







W

_...let the cat out of the bag..._ It's an idiom.


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## APR M1 (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
W







W

I have a better one for you, BRB!


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

can someone throw out the part number


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## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (yvrnycracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yvrnycracer* »_can someone throw out the part number









079906036D


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

1stvwparts has them for $122.17
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## APR M1 (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (rippie74)*


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

So this is 100% confirmed and true? you say the spray pattern is diffrent and cold start / smoke is an issue.... is it going to be an issue for engine life?
What is the cold start issue? I live in the North East, would i have issues getting my car started if i used these injectors? With REVO stage 3 software?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

The spray pattern was designed for a different FSI engine and will have some side effects but I don't think it will be anything that will dramatically harm the engine. For cold starts, you'll mainly find yourself holding the key forward, cranking it longer than normal.
LOL at the cat!


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## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

It was only time. Good find!


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## 0027gti (May 18, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

hmm these injectors sound like the ones _xx_ used in there beta kits.factory part number ground off,check. 20 seconds of cranking in the morning to get it started,check. running rich,causing smoke,check.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (APR M1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *APR M1* »_










Bwahahahaa








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (APR M1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *APR M1* »_










Next day air on APR parts? this guy must have won the lottery


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The spray pattern was designed for a different FSI engine and will have some side effects but I don't think it will be anything that will dramatically harm the engine. For cold starts, you'll mainly find yourself holding the key forward, cranking it longer than normal.
LOL at the cat!

I am assuming these would be the same as fond in all the V8 fsi engines? (R8 etc...)


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## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (yvrnycracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yvrnycracer* »_
I am assuming these would be the same as fond in all the V8 fsi engines? (R8 etc...)

yes


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## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The spray pattern was designed for a different FSI engine and will have some side effects but I don't think it will be anything that will dramatically harm the engine. For cold starts, you'll mainly find yourself holding the key forward, cranking it longer than normal.
LOL at the cat!

I notice this with my S3 injectors as well


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## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (BlownM3)*

The spray patterns are not as different as some companies may lead you to believe.
Basically, these have been working, and will work for BT applications.

My question is this though: Can these be used on a stock turbo application?


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_The spray patterns are not as different as some companies may lead you to believe.
Basically, these have been working, and will work for BT applications.

My question is this though: Can these be used on a stock turbo application?

as far as i know, no.. it would require a special tune.


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## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (bwzimmerman)*

Thats what i figured. From my understanding you can run s3 injectors on the stock turbo, but thats about as far as you can go. Unfortunately im stuck in the middle. I would love to replace the injectors now with something i can use in the future when i go big turbo, looks like i'll have to do it all at once.


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (bwzimmerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_
as far as i know, no.. it would require a special tune.

i have heard of people running the bigger injectors on a stock turbo but in reality I don't think it makes a difference...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_My question is this though: Can these be used on a stock turbo application?

The stock turbo isnt injector limited. Why would you want to upgrade?


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## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The stock turbo isnt injector limited. Why would you want to upgrade?

Injector on-times are of a concern, and I would REALLY like to push the limits of the stock turbo before i upgrade. I have a few things in the works this winter that have not been done yet, and look promising.
With that being said, i may be dangerously close to maxing out the stock injectors, and i would like to know if i can just upgrade to something now that i can use in the future.


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (yvrnycracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yvrnycracer* »_
i have heard of people running the bigger injectors on a stock turbo but in reality I don't think it makes a difference... 

yeah but isnt the software setup for a certain flow of the injectors.. or does the electronics monitor the amount of fuel sprayed? I am just assuming that the injector flow is programed into the software and the ECU has no idea what is accually being sprayed.. ie. not monitored.
So if you were to upgrade injectors but not software then the injectors would spray alot more fuel then the ECU thinks.. right?


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (bwzimmerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_
yeah but isnt the software setup for a certain flow of the injectors.. or does the electronics monitor the amount of fuel sprayed? I am just assuming that the injector flow is programed into the software and the ECU has no idea what is accually being sprayed.. ie. not monitored.
So if you were to upgrade injectors but not software then the injectors would spray alot more fuel then the ECU thinks.. right?

The one person I spoke with had upgraded his injectors and I believe was running an APR stage 1 tune. I believe it may have actually hindered the performance with the stock turbo given the dyno numbers. I really didn't see the point of upgrading the injectors without having an upgraded turbo. That being said I have also seen a stage 3 kit with stock injectors and was only producing numbers just above a stage 2 tune... (i think appropriate software was lacking as well). 
Turbo, then rods and injectors I think is the way to go (or together) Upgrading the injectors on their own is a of time and money i do believe just from what I have seen and have been reading. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (bwzimmerman)*

just for the record i use these injectors, my car starts faster and idles better than my 100% stock eos with a 2L fsi, i also made the most whp out of any 2L fsi on the road and also have the quickest et's http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif don't read into this to much


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## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_just for the record i use these injectors, my car starts faster and idles better than my 100% stock eos with a 2L fsi, i also made the most whp out of any 2L fsi on the road and also have the quickest et's http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif don't read into this to much

The (current) king has spoken















That being said congrats to all parties for cranking as much out of these little engines as they already have... competition rules!!








Who is going to go for tens first is the question http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by yvrnycracer at 5:04 PM 10-19-2008_


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_just for the record i use these injectors, my car starts faster and idles better than my 100% stock eos with a 2L fsi, i also made the most whp out of any 2L fsi on the road and also have the quickest et's http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif don't read into this to much

truth is truth....and this man seems 2 speak it


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_just for the record i use these injectors, my car starts faster and idles better than my 100% stock eos with a 2L fsi
 
That just show's how well REVO tuned there BT software to work with these injectors http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif.
Other tuners choose to rushed to the market place with poorly modified injectors with weak software to match .







Bob.G


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

Well i think Jeff ([email protected]) would of have been in the 10's but hes the main tester for REVO. Hes keeping his car to a bolt on off the shelf ATP GT3071R kit and the KMD injectors so the average joe can have an affordable Stage 3 kit.
If he wasnt such a nice guy I bet he would be running the setup hes talking about doing, by now..

I am getting these injectors myself, they have been proven to produce more power then the other options out there.


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## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
That just show's how well REVO tuned there BT software to work with these injectors http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif.
Other tuners choose to rushed to the market place with poorly modified injectors with weak software to match .







Bob.G

This can't possibly end well, hahaha.
And JC is 100% correct. His car is running VERY well on these injectors with no problems that i know of.
If there is one thing you can learn from this...... Don't read into a companies marketing/smear campaigns, take your info from real world experience. Real world experience has shown that these injectors with a PROPER tune run flawlessly, and if i'm not mistaken the guy with the best 1/4 mile time to date is running them....hmmm.....


_Modified by MKC7 at 8:20 PM 10-19-2008_


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
Real world experience has shown that these injectors with a PROPER tune run flawlessly, and if i'm not mistaken the guy with the best 1/4 mile time to date is running them....hmmm.....

_Modified by MKC7 at 8:20 PM 10-19-2008_

Rumor has it even FSI-King is using these.. he told me hes using APR but with something else added, whatever that means.
Reguardless who is using them or where they came from, they work and work well. I havent heard the cold start issues or smoke problem (well the FSI makes a bit of exhaust smoke anyway).. i think the cold start issues could be the tune?
Anyway I see this thread going south quick.. its basicly an APR vs. REVO thread. I wonder if Revo or someone in their circle of friends will reveal the APR injectors to counter this thread... only time will tell..


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## alf_ftw (Jan 2, 2007)

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/...66672


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## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (bwzimmerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_
Rumor has it even FSI-King is using these.. he told me hes using APR but with something else added, whatever that means.
Reguardless who is using them or where they came from, they work and work well. I havent heard the cold start issues or smoke problem (well the FSI makes a bit of exhaust smoke anyway).. i think the cold start issues could be the tune?
Anyway I see this thread going south quick.. its basicly an APR vs. REVO thread. I wonder if Revo or someone in their circle of friends will reveal the APR injectors to counter this thread... only time will tell..

I am not using these injectors this is not an APR vs. Revo thread, this is a way for the community to get these injectors for $500-$650 per set instead of being ripped off at $950


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## a4chris (Jan 27, 2000)

*Re: (alf_ftw)*

I didn't want to step into this but I guess I will, where did Gregg ever say he was using these injectors? we have used these injectors on a car at the shop and it ran fine just smoked a little under WOT on the dyno.
Chris Green


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## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
I am not using these injectors this is not an APR vs. Revo thread, this is a way for the community to get these injectors for $500-$650 per set instead of being ripped off at $950

I am glad you did, cause now I wont be paying KMD their markup. I was wrong about what injectors you used.. but i did say it was a rumor.
Well, REVO had nothing to do with KMDs business practice. I am just defending these injectors cause JC and others are showing good numbers with these injectors... so they cant be that bad. From what i am told the cold startup isnt an issue.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (BALLIN-AUDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BALLIN-AUDI* »_I didn't want to step into this but I guess I will, where did Gregg ever say he was using these injectors? we have used these injectors on a car at the shop and it ran fine just smoked a little under WOT on the dyno.
Chris Green

you ever dyno a stock fsi? they smoke the same


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## a4chris (Jan 27, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
you ever dyno a stock fsi? they smoke the same









Jeff trust me we dyno about 20 fsi's a week at my shop, so dont tell me that.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (BALLIN-AUDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BALLIN-AUDI* »_
Jeff trust me we dyno about 20 fsi's a week at my shop, so dont tell me that.

you guys are acting like they smoke like a freight train though, the only smoke in this thread is coming from you know where...i have installed and worked with apr kits to,. APR currently uses the same injectors but gets them direct from hitachi instead of from audi..and if they say they are not then jr needs to send his back because he must have got a mispack







lets face it a fast car is a fast car why does everyone have to hate on everyone else? more than 1 person/company can own a fast well tuned car


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (BALLIN-AUDI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BALLIN-AUDI* »_I didn't want to step into this but I guess I will, where did Gregg ever say he was using these injectors? we have used * these injectors on a car at the shop and it ran fine * just smoked a little under WOT on the dyno. 
Chris Green
 

_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
I dont have the exact figures in front of me but they bolt right in. The spray pattern is different so * the cold start sucks * and the cars tend to spit out smoke
 
You both are from the same shop correct ? LOL
FYI everyone reading this,the RS-4 injectors prob wont idle as well with APR software hence Gregs experience noted above because APR request higher rail pressure versus other software companys 130>110bar . 
APR could easly run the lower 110bar in warm up mode , then switch back to 130bar during regular operation so they would not have to change the performance part of the tune . 
This only if they can't get the injector ms low enough @ idle without a misfire . 
When the next independent person buys his new APR stage 3 will have to get a pic of the injectors and get the truth




















_Modified by rracerguy717 at 9:43 PM 10-19-2008_


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 

FYI everyone reading this,the RS-4 injectors prob wont idle as well with APR software hence Gregs experience noted above because APR request higher rail pressure versus other software companys 130>110bar . 
APR could easly run the lower 110bar in warm up mode , then switch back to 130bar during regular operation so they would not have to change the performance part of the tune . 
This only if they can't get the injector ms low enough @ idle without a misfire . 


Bob, you and I both know that the increased fuel pressure 110 vs 130 bar is not a set 20 bar over the entire RPM range. As with everything else, pressure requested is load based. I doubt that the rail pressure at idle is significantly different from any other HPFP tune.
Dave


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Bob, you and I both know that the increased fuel pressure 110 vs 130 bar is not a set 20 bar over the entire RPM range. As with everything else, pressure requested is load based. I doubt that the rail pressure at idle is significantly different from any other HPFP tune.
Dave

I agreee but the only way to tell is to log and compair Ill log my injector ms and rail pressure @ cold start all the way to warm up . 
Maybe we can get Jeff to do the same and we can see??







Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Oh wow, the speculation, conspiracy theories, armchair tuning, false quotes, and battles going on are so hilarious. 
We've said it before. The injectors work, and work well, but were not designed for the 2.0T FSI, which is why there are a few side effects. We've never said these side effects bad for the car, or so horrible it would ruin your day. They are just side effects since they are not 'perfect'.
And bob, PPPPPLLLEEASSEEE... I've run these with my k04 and I've never had it stall out at idle. Your fuel pressure theories make me snicker. They remind me of this from seinfeld:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU6m5UqLx9M


_Modified by [email protected] at 7:35 PM 10-19-2008_


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## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Oh wow, the speculation, conspiracy theories, armchair tuning, false quotes, and battles going on are so hilarious. 
We've said it before. The injectors work, and work well, but were not designed for the 2.0T FSI, which is why there are a few side effects. We've never said these side effects bad for the car, or so horrible it would ruin your day. They are just side effects since they are not 'perfect'.
And bob, PPPPPLLLEEASSEEE... I've run these with my k04 and I've never had it stall out at idle. Your fuel pressure theories make me snicker. They remind me of this from seinfeld:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU6m5UqLx9M

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:35 PM 10-19-2008_

Are the injectors you are talking about the ones that come with the ED30/S3 kit?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (BlownM3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownM3* »_
Are the injectors you are talking about the ones that come with the ED30/S3 kit?

No. We ship it with the S3 injectors.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
And bob, PPPPPLLLEEASSEEE... I've run these with my k04 and I've never had it stall out at idle. Your fuel pressure theories make me snicker. They remind me of this from seinfeld:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU6m5UqLx9M

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:35 PM 10-19-2008_
 
Keep your personal attacks out of the thread 
I know you and APR staff are good at getting these threads locked or black holed LOL








lets read what your engineer said about these kdm/rs4 injectors and keep running your mouth because I can't wait to point out APR failed injector program when I see a set of these same injectors being shipped in a new APR stage 3 kit










_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
JC: 
The spray atomization of the standard 2.0T FSI injectors is significantly finer than that of the other FSI injectors injectors. In addition, the cone of spray is also larger on the BPY injectors. If you were to see the spray of a good BPY injector, you would notice that due to the fine atomization and the wider cone, there is a lot of fuel swirling in the combustion chamber that helps promote good mixture of the combustion components. This was something that was most likely done to help with the earlier AXX engines that were initially running lean-burn Stratified Charge Mode. For the record: the APR Stage 3 injectors duplicate the spray pattern of the BPY injectors. 
The other injectors have a "wetter" spray atomization and a more narrow cone and you don't see as much fuel tumble. This results in a a less efficient burn process and the car will view this as a richer mixture. It will then start pulling back injector pulse width and fuel adaptation to deal with it. In fact, running these injectors in a small turbo BPY car with OEM fuel pressure levels (not just at WOT) will result in the ECU pulling out as much fuel as possible in an attempt to adapt. Basically, your fuel adaptations will be maxed in the negative direction which will eventually throw a CEL. This is not just due to them being larger but due to the reasons I have already explained. This will even happen in an S3 K04 equipped car. 
In addition, even in Big Turbo cars, this "wetter" spray will result in situations when the injector pulse widths will go very low (due to adaptations) and cause a misfire because the injectors cannot function properly at this pulse width. These misfires will most likely happen during transitions from higher loads to lower loads...such as a stab of the gas pedal to pass someone and then the subsequent quick release of the throttle. Although you may feel this misfire, you will not be able to record it using Vag-Com. The misfire counter is only active during certain conditions. One condition in which it is NOT active is when engine speed is greater than idle, vehicle speed is greater than zero, and the pedal input is zero. 
Bottom Line: there are differences. If you are willing to accept some small issues, running these injectors will be fine. However, if you are going to be worried about every misfire your car has, it's simply a fact of life with these injectors. Users of these injectors will NOT have cold start misfire issues but may experience a car that is slightly harder to start in the morning. But they will have some amount of misfires during light load conditions while driving. And if you are choosing to run these on smaller turbos like the S3 K04 or even a K03 (for whatever reason), take a look at your fuel adaptation values and you will see what I am talking about. 
Everything I have said here is from personal experience with APR injectors, standard BPY injectors, and every other single FSI injector on the market. YES, I have a copy of every non-piezo FSI injector sold in any car in the US and most from Europe because I like tinkering with stuff.








_Modified by [email protected] at 11:27 AM 8-23-2008_


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## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Oh bob you make us laugh......
don't quit your day job!! car stalls at idle hahahaha



_Modified by TheBox at 11:10 PM 10-19-2008_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (TheBox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheBox* »_Oh bob you make us laugh......
don't quit your day job!! car stalls at idle hahahaha


Where did I said it would stalled ??? 
Here some quotes from the APR Stage 3 mis-fire injector denial crew LOL 

_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
yeah go with the Kmd , stay away from the BT APR / OEM modified ones, mis-fires and failure with CEL will be your future. On my second set and after 5K they cold misfire bad .







Bob.G


_Quote, originally posted by *TheBox* »_guess you got a bad set



_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
No doubt, they seem to be working perfectly for everyone else!

But JR I would expect you to not tell the whole truth about the APR kit since it cost you ZERO $ LOL 
Wonder who injectors JC is talking about LOL

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
i have installed and worked with apr kits to,. APR currently uses the same injectors but gets them direct from hitachi instead of from audi..and if they say they are not then jr needs to send his back because he must have got a mispack


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## MKV John (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

nevermind.
i dont want beef.










_Modified by MKV John at 9:45 PM 10-19-2008_


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (bwzimmerman)*

the ECU know a/f ratios, combustion temps, misfires, timing advances, and boost pressure. that is why the maf will slam the throttle plate close if it realizes the boost is higher that your ecu tune's a/f ratio, timing, and requested boost. limp mode is a bitch but the only thing that will get you past this problem is Revo and Unitronic. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to APR to jumping on the bandwagon as well! All this compeittion means that my BT purchase will be well thought out and bullet proof thanks to the plethora of parts that are becoming available! Is it just me, or are the 2.0T motors Blowing the 1.8T motors out of the water as far as parts availability versus time on the market? 

IMO these stock RS4 injectors are a very good upgrade, considering the light shined upon this upgrade! Too bad APR will never release their injectors outside of their stage 3 kit... EuroJet should have a formidable choice out in the near future with their BT kit... I'm excited to see what they choose to run with! I'm sure someone will source vf's OEM upgrade before too long as well
I can't stop giiggiling that < $10k will get me a car that will do consistent 11.5s if not not 10s on an ECU reflash! 
Stand alone should make this engine a heavyweight in the drag racing community!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

The funniest thing about this whole thread is how ignorant everyone is acting about what the original post even said.
It said in a nutshell, "stop wasting your money getting ripped off by KMD and buy these from Audi directly."
Nowhere else did it say anything about them being shoddy injectors.
Stop being a bunch of D bags. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (gtiiiiiiii)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtiiiiiiii* »_
Nowhere else did it say anything about them being shoddy injectors.
Stop being a bunch of D bags. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
I dont have the exact figures in front of me but they bolt right in. The spray pattern is different so the cold start sucks and the cars tend to spit out smoke


/devils advocate


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

As my k04 is on the way, any benefit in purchasing these injectors over the S3 ones or turbo maxes out before the S3 injectors ?


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_
/devils advocate

Exactly how does saying cold starts suck or that they're spitting out smoke make them terrible injectors?


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (gtiiiiiiii)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtiiiiiiii* »_
Exactly how does saying cold starts suck or that they're spitting out smoke make them terrible injectors?

their not terrible they just have those side effects, that can be brought to a minimum with a tune.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
their not terrible they just have those side effects, that can be brought to a minimum with a tune. 

but thats like saying a have a uni 630cc file on my 1.8T and i run 870cc injectors and they suck because they smoke to much and the car runs to rich...and the spray pattern is not different until someone can provide proof of them being tested at 130bar http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
but thats like saying a have a uni 630cc file on my 1.8T and i run 870cc injectors and they suck because they smoke to much and the car runs to rich...and the spray pattern is not different until someone can provide proof of them being tested at 130bar http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yea, I get what your saying.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_As my k04 is on the way, any benefit in purchasing these injectors over the S3 ones or turbo maxes out before the S3 injectors ?

The S3 injectors are fine for a k04. These are a bit too large and spray hot smoke everywhere you go. I've never been flicked off more in my entire life, passing people at normal speeds, when I tested these. FWIW the VAG Motorsport Scirocco GT24 ran APR injectors for their 24 hour track event. They were running a K04. I'm pretty sure they had access to OEM injectors.










_Modified by [email protected] at 7:16 AM 10-20-2008_


----------



## Runin2Rich4FSi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Thanks for the info. I will see if I have a pic of the stage 3 injectors before we put them in. I dont think I had my camera handy at that time. I was sooo amped to put the kit on. No problems from my injectors. I have over 10K on the kit. And I def paid for my kit out of my own pocket for the record.


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: (Runin2Rich4FSi)*

i can get them for $540 w00t!


----------



## FuN:TuRBO (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (bwzimmerman)*

Flip..

_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_
I am getting these injectors myself, they have been proven to produce more power then the other options out there.
Anyway I see this thread going south quick.. its basicly an APR vs. REVO thread. I wonder if Revo or someone in their circle of friends will reveal the APR injectors to counter this thread... only time will tell..


Flop..

_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_
I am glad you did, cause now I wont be paying KMD their markup. 
Well, REVO had nothing to do with KMDs business practice.


----------



## MKV John (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: (FuN:TuRBO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FuN:TuRBO* »_Flip..
Flop..



he didn't exactly flip flop
he's still buying the injectors... just not from KMD.


----------



## 02VWGTIVR6 (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: (MKV John)*

wow kmd is messed up for pulling that ish. how could you trust a shop that does that? trying to sell something with there brand on it and then marking it up. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (02VWGTIVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02VWGTIVR6* »_wow kmd is messed up for pulling that ish. how could you trust a shop that does that? trying to sell something with there brand on it and then marking it up. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

i just called down to kmd to talk to danny about this and he said the injectors for 950 are the bosch motorsports ones, he said the rs4 injectors are not listed on the website since they have only been for in house cars only so far


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

More fuel for the fire.
We've tested the RS4 injectors during our 2.0T turbo development R&D.
We first tested them in cars, before we purchased our $8000 ASNU DI injector test stand.
When in the car, they produce what looks to be much richer air/fuel ratio vs stock or S3. However, after careful analysis, some odd starting and part throttle behavior was traced to their use.
Upon testing stock, S3, and RS4 injectors in our ASNU test stand, we had some interesting results.
As you can see from the photo below, the spray pattern of the RS4 injector is very different from the stock and S3 injectors. This alone can contribute to the starting and part throttle issues:









What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:
Stock = 1080 cc/min
RS4 = 1091 cc/min
S3 = 1217 cc/min

For all intents and purposes, the RS4 injectors flow about the same as stock 2.0T FSI injectors. This makes sense when you do a hp per cylinder calculation between the two engines. We also confirmed our results after contacting Hitachi directly.
The rich air/fuel exhaust reading seems to be an anomaly possibly related to incomplete combustion due to the wrong spray pattern. The peculiarities of direct injection behavior vs conventional injection behavior are still being learned.
Either way, the exhaust gas readings are a false positive as confirmed by our bench testing. Unknowingly, software tuners may be pushing things way leaner than they intended just going off of wideband readings!
What we also found is that a mass marketed transverse K04 kit out there is indeed using RS4 injectors. We had a client come to us with running issues, and a first hand test of his injectors confirmed this.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_More fuel for the fire.
We've tested the RS4 injectors during our 2.0T turbo development R&D.
We first tested them in cars, before we purchased our $8000 ASNU DI injector test stand.
When in the car, they produce what looks to be much richer air/fuel ratio vs stock or S3. However, after careful analysis, some odd starting and part throttle behavior was traced to their use.
Upon testing stock, S3, and RS4 injectors in our ASNU test stand, we had some interesting results.
As you can see from the photo below, the spray pattern of the RS4 injector is very different from the stock and S3 injectors. This alone can contribute to the starting and part throttle issues:









What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:
Stock = 1080 cc/min
RS4 = 1091 cc/min
S3 = 1217 cc/min

For all intents and purposes, the RS4 injectors flow about the same as stock 2.0T FSI injectors. This makes sense when you do a hp per cylinder calculation between the two engines. We also confirmed our results after contacting Hitachi directly.
The rich air/fuel exhaust reading seems to be an anomaly possibly related to incomplete combustion due to the wrong spray pattern. The peculiarities of direct injection behavior vs conventional injection behavior are still being learned.
Either way, the exhaust gas readings are a false positive as confirmed by our bench testing. Unknowingly, software tuners may be pushing things way leaner than they intended just going off of wideband readings!
What we also found is that a mass marketed transverse K04 kit out there is indeed using RS4 injectors. We had a client come to us with running issues, and a first hand test of his injectors confirmed this. 


whats weird is that stock injectors can barely handle 300whp but we can make 500whp on the rs4's...how many bar of fuel pressure does your machine test at? i see the spray pattern difference but i have not experienced personally the side affects of them
as for the hp per cylinder calculation has anyone figured out why an R8 has half the injector ontime then?


----------



## Murder'd (Jul 16, 2008)

So, S3 injectors flow more than RS4 injectors, this makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the claim that KMD injectors are RS4 injectors. How can they flow 43% more than stock but, less than S3 injectors. It has been claimed that S3 injectors flow about 13% more than stock.
So KMD injectors = "Bosch Motorsport injectors"


_Modified by Murder'd at 3:30 PM 10-20-2008_


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (Murder'd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Murder’d* »_So, S3 injectors flow more than RS4 injectors, this makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the claim that KMD injectors are RS4 injectors. How can they flow 43% more than stock but, less than S3 injectors. It has been claimed that S3 injectors flow about 13% more than stock.
So KMD injectors = "Bosch Motorsport injectors"


Once again they are RS4 injectors I have confirmed via part # on "KMD's" injectors. They missed grinding off some digits


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Todd,
Does the DI injector stand you are using operate at 110+ bar?


----------



## Murder'd (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: (FSI-King)*

Ok, so if S3 injectors flow more why not use them with the GT30 as they are made for 2.0L FSI


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Murder'd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Murder’d* »_Ok, so if S3 injectors flow more why not use them with the GT30 as they are made for 2.0L FSI

Hold on a second everyone. I believe we will see AWE post shortly that they are not testing these injectors at 110 bar.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Hold on a second everyone. I believe we will see AWE post shortly that they are not testing these injectors at 110 bar.

You missed the part where I said that we already confirmed our results directly with Hitachi, who manufactures these injectors.
We were just as confused by the conflicting data, on top of knowing the different resistance impedance, etc., but Hitachi confirmed the flow rating.


----------



## Murder'd (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Has anyone actually tried S3 injectors with a 2871R or GT30?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Murder'd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Murder’d* »_Has anyone actually tried S3 injectors with a 2871R or GT30?

no need you can push their limits with a k04...


----------



## Murder'd (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

If that is true than wouldn't the KMD injectors not be enough either since they do not flow as much as the S3s? I must be missing some obvious piece of data. Someone please enlighten me.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Murder'd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Murder’d* »_If that is true than wouldn't the KMD injectors not be enough either since they do not flow as much as the S3s? I must be missing some obvious piece of data. Someone please enlighten me.

greg and i both made 500whp on the rs4's, assuming greg has the same injectors as jr


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You missed the part where I said that we already confirmed our results directly with Hitachi, who manufactures these injectors.
We were just as confused by the conflicting data, on top of knowing the different resistance impedance, etc., but Hitachi confirmed the flow rating. 

So did you test them at 110 bar or no?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You missed the part where I said that we already confirmed our results directly with Hitachi, who manufactures these injectors.
We were just as confused by the conflicting data, on top of knowing the different resistance impedance, etc., but Hitachi confirmed the flow rating. 

vw/audi as far as i know uses all the same resistance signals out of the ecu (someone correct me if i am wrong), but if hitachi could just tell you the size and spray why buy a 8k dollar machine?


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
vw/audi as far as i know uses all the same resistance signals out of the ecu (someone correct me if i am wrong), but if hitachi could just tell you the size and spray why buy a 8k dollar machine?

exactly and i doubt they tested the flow at 130bar


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
vw/audi as far as i know uses all the same resistance signals out of the ecu (someone correct me if i am wrong), but if hitachi could just tell you the size and spray why buy a 8k dollar machine?

Who said we're only working with Hitachi injectors? We use the machine for testing specialty injectors being made to our spec.
The only reason we contacted Hitachi about this was because the empirical data we had collected didn't match up. Since they manufacture the injectors, their info confirmed what our machine was showing us.
Even though that makes any test pressure debate moot, for the record we're using a pressure correction formula which we derived form Bernoulli's equation to correct from our bench test pressure to the HPFP outlet pressure. For *every* OEM injector we have tested, our bench results have matched the OEM results.
RS4 injectors have a higher impedance than 2.0T or S3 (1.9ohm vs 1.6ohm). We tested them on car with a inductive amperage pickup and a scope to ensure that we were duplicating their electrical operating environment on the bench tester.

And regarding your power statements, how do you know if you are actually making the power you claim at the air/fuel that you claim? In other words, how sure are you about your air/fuel data? You could be making that power at a dangerously lean ratio and not even knowing it because nothing has popped yet. How else are you monitoring?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:54 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:54 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*FV-QR*

I like where this thread is going.


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

I really hope this thread doesn't get locked...


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
I'm sorry but that is not true...
Not with 130 bar pressure....

were you involved in any company's tuning with s3 injectors? i didn't think so all you know is what others have posted on the internet


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

todd we had a sniffer on the dyno, vagcom and my aem wideband hooked up..all showed very very similar how else would you measure? and the egt's would be crazy high if you were to lean


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I'm pretty sure if JC was leaning out, he would have had some serious issues by now. Everyone on here knows how he drives that thing.
Lets be realistic about this, obviously the RS4 injectors flow better then the S3 injectors, otherwise JC and others wouldn't be able to make 500 whp while using them.
There is no possible way that the RS4 injectors flow a little better then stock and worse then s3 injectors.
Edit: The spray pattern is interesting, but it doesn't really mean much unless its tested at 110-130 bar.


_Modified by MKC7 at 6:24 PM 10-20-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:53 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
O'RLY ??
so you..."didn't think so huh ?" 
Ehhhh...GUESS AGAIN...
you're so funny...Seriously...
























Clearly your in really tight with companies testing fuel flow, hence why you had to order 3 high pressure fuel pumps from dynamic motorworks here in the US.... If you were testing i would think you might have access to fuel pumps from the manufacturer that your working with no?
Nice try champ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:04 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*








if you are the know all master whats your fueling solution for you high hp situation? or are you still trying to figure out how the cam follower wear works? give me a break


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:53 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Read again what you wrote a few posts above.
...and the answer is yes, i am involved in some company's tuning with s3 injectors, and i answered your claim that the K04 maxes the s3 injectors.Do YOU have ANY experience with that ?"I...didn't think so.."

i do have experience with the ko4 and s3 injectors, and what company are you designing a fuel system for why don't you fill in the rest of vortex with your wealth of knowledge


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
...and the answer is yes, i am involved in some company's tuning with s3 injectors, and i answered your claim that the K04 maxes the s3 injectors.Do YOU have ANY experience with that ?"I...didn't think so.."

Dude, messing around with your car with your friends on the weekends does not count as working with a legitimate company.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:00 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

ok you win next time i need advice from you on how to get my car to run good i will pm you before i make a decision i must have been wrong in all my hardware and software choices over the last year


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

I figured it out, whenever GolfRS says something, do the exact opposite and it should be correct.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:02 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I would like to see some of these logs...how about...
Boost 
Rail Pressure
Injector On-Times
Does anyone have logs from any of these set-ups (and are allowed to share them)?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Its not a case of who wins and who loses...
I am testing software for K04 and s3 injectors for over 6 months now, so i should know..The K04 doesn't max the s3 injectors, not at 130 bar pressure, and trust me i have the logs to prove it...I'm guessing you do too ?


you are testing injectors for a company that though stock hpfp and stock injectors were going to be good enough for a k04, i am not wasting my time with you


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
you are testing injectors for a company that though stock hpfp and stock injectors were going to be good enough for a k04


And I'm definitely still awaiting these logs as well...I think I must have asked for these at least 3-4 times now...


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

Just because your not maxing out the s3 injectors with the Ko4 doesn't mean its not possible.....


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

Back to the OP...So KMD Injectors are NOT RS4 injectors...but JC you are using RS4 Injectors and not KMD injectors?
Confused
Are these one and the same yes or no?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:00 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

your an idiot i am done in here


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (MKC7)*

not referring to the s3 injectors at all in my previous statement...I'm still awaiting data clarification showing how this company's k04 kit doesn't require fueling upgrades, makes similar power to other kits and is running everything in spec according to the manufacturer's specs.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lou_Y2mK5* »_Back to the OP...So KMD Injectors are NOT RS4 injectors...but JC you are using RS4 Injectors and not KMD injectors?
Confused
Are these one and the same yes or no?

kmd sells more than 1 injector, the injectors on the website are bosch motorsports injectors or something, i use rs4 injectors you can get them from kmd or from audi direct..you will pay the same price either way


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

golfRS are you making more than 330whp on 93 octane? if so i want to see your logs of egt and injector on time


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:01 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_not referring to the s3 injectors at all in my previous statement...I'm still awaiting data clarification showing how this company's k04 kit doesn't require fueling upgrades, makes similar power to other kits and is running everything in spec according to the manufacturer's specs.

x2 man I thought he said he was getting logged today







. Personally I'm still a misbeliever myself in this no fueling upgrades what so ever and they still think they can put out more then a Stg2 GTI. In every way shape or form I beg for data to put my disbeliefs to rest but I just don't see how.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:00 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
kmd sells more than 1 injector, the injectors on the website are bosch motorsports injectors or something, i use rs4 injectors you can get them from kmd or from audi direct..you will pay the same price either way

You told me via PM the other day that KMD purchased their bt injectors from you and that they were Hitachi not Bosch. Still confused how all of the sudden there are two different BT injector types. 
How would I know which one I got then? Why would they sell two different types for the same price?


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

This thread is pretty funny. Will be interesting to see how it turns out.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*

they are not the same price, i guess they only have 1 set listed on the website, i dont work at kmd so i don't know how they come up with the pricing on the website but if you want rs4 injectors from them all you have to do is call and ask
rs4 injectors are hitachi
bosch motorsports injectors or obviously bosch


_Modified by [email protected] at 4:29 PM 10-20-2008_


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lou_Y2mK5* »_









Holy scratched off markings batman....








Kind of reminds me of most K04 kits...


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (yvrnycracer)*

then what does this kit consist of... 

_Quote »_








Brand/Manufacturer: KMD Tuning 
Product Code: KMD-fuelingkit
Product Information	
KMD Tuning's fueling kit in conjunction with big turbo kits have helped produce over 500 hp!! Kit includes KMD upgraded fuel pump and 4- 43% larger FSI injectors.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lou_Y2mK5* »_Back to the OP...So KMD Injectors are NOT RS4 injectors...but JC you are using RS4 Injectors and not KMD injectors?
Confused
Are these one and the same yes or no?
 
Whats being over looked in this thread is basic combustion . 
The RS4 injector sprays a tigher angle ( like Todd @ awe model shown above ) which makes a denser fuel charge which causes slow fuel droplet fall off hence being able to make higher HP with same fuel flow as JC and REVO have show time and time again . 
When your injector spray pattern is wider like shown above with the ko3 and ko4/s3 injectors the fuel droplet fall off is alot faster making a less dense fuel charge hence able to make less HP. 
The lesson here is its not ALL about fuel flow with DI engines







Bob.G



_Modified by rracerguy717 at 7:40 PM 10-20-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

lol


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:01 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## APR M1 (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Whats being over looked in this thread is basic combustion . 
The RS4 injector sprays a tigher angle ( like Todd @ awe model shown above ) which makes a denser fuel charge which causes slow fuel droplet fall off hence being able to make higher HP with same fuel flow as JC and REVO have show time and time again . 
When your injector spray pattern is wider like shown above with the ko3 and ko4/s3 injectors the fuel droplet fall off is alot faster making a less dense fuel charge hence able to make less HP. 
The lesson here is its not ALL about fuel flow with DI engines







Bob.G


Bob, have you been staying at the Holiday In Express lately? 
Are going to have REVO tune your car and show us real HP numbers?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (APR M1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *APR M1* »_
Bob, have you been staying at the Holiday In Express lately? 


 LOL


----------



## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: (FuN:TuRBO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FuN:TuRBO* »_Flip..
Flop..



how did i flip flop? I am getting these injectors... just not from KMD. If its the REVO comment then I am saying its not REVOs fault that KMD resold OEM injectors as KMD injectors. I was saying its a REVO vs APR thread because the guy who made this thread is an APR dealer who uses APR injectors... why else would he post info about injectors he doesnt use, that are used by REVO for their stage 3 tune?
Anyway, I really do appresiate the info, it will save me $400 or so.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_More fuel for the fire.
We've tested the RS4 injectors during our 2.0T turbo development R&D.
We first tested them in cars, before we purchased our $8000 ASNU DI injector test stand.
When in the car, they produce what looks to be much richer air/fuel ratio vs stock or S3. However, after careful analysis, some odd starting and part throttle behavior was traced to their use.
Upon testing stock, S3, and RS4 injectors in our ASNU test stand, we had some interesting results.
As you can see from the photo below, the spray pattern of the RS4 injector is very different from the stock and S3 injectors. This alone can contribute to the starting and part throttle issues:









What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:
Stock = 1080 cc/min
RS4 = 1091 cc/min
S3 = 1217 cc/min
APR= ?????
For all intents and purposes, the RS4 injectors flow about the same as stock 2.0T FSI injectors. This makes sense when you do a hp per cylinder calculation between the two engines. We also confirmed our results after contacting Hitachi directly.
The rich air/fuel exhaust reading seems to be an anomaly possibly related to incomplete combustion due to the wrong spray pattern. The peculiarities of direct injection behavior vs conventional injection behavior are still being learned.
Either way, the exhaust gas readings are a false positive as confirmed by our bench testing. Unknowingly, software tuners may be pushing things way leaner than they intended just going off of wideband readings!
What we also found is that a mass marketed transverse K04 kit out there is indeed using RS4 injectors. We had a client come to us with running issues, and a first hand test of his injectors confirmed this. 


When I change out my highly engineered LOL APR stage 3 BT injectors for the proven RS4 injectors JC is running [email protected] AWE is more than Welcome to test them and show the result to share this with the community espec im curious about the spray pattern . 
Personally I think my poor performance results are from these injectors not having enough mixture charge ( as stated in my above post) and because of this is why im pulling ALOT of timing, hence low overall timing and power espec TQ figures .







Bob.G


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
When I change out my highly engineered LOL APR stage 3 BT injectors for the proven RS4 injectors JC is running [email protected] AWE is more than Welcome to test them and show the result to share this with the community espec im curious about the spray pattern . 
Personally I think my poor performance results are from these injectors not having enough mixture charge ( as stated in my above post) and because of this is why im pulling ALOT of timing, hence low overall timing and power espec TQ figures .







Bob.G

 
too bad, I already made 430whp with those injectors.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_ 
too bad, I already made 430whp with those injectors.

Not with MY injectors out of MY car LOL Bob.G

Greg plus you made 500WHP with the RS-4 injectors .
where that cat out of the box picture again LOL


----------



## 02VWGTIVR6 (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
kmd sells more than 1 injector, the injectors on the website are bosch motorsports injectors or something, i use rs4 injectors you can get them from kmd or from audi direct..you will pay the same price either way

that aint true. my boy bought the the kmd injectors for 950 and we checked them last night. definitely not bosch. numbers scratched off. kmd ripped him off thats bs http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (02VWGTIVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02VWGTIVR6* »_
that aint true. my boy bought the the kmd injectors for 950 and we checked them last night. definitely not bosch. numbers scratched off. kmd ripped him off thats bs http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

call them, the person that was doing their internet sales is no longer with them as of 2 or 3 weeks ago


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Not with MY injectors out of MY car LOL Bob.G

Greg plus you made 500WHP with the RS-4 injectors .
where that cat out of the box picture again LOL









send them to me and I'll make 430whp all day long, once again im not using the RS-4 injectors.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
send them to me and I'll make 430whp all day long, once again im not using the RS-4 injectors. 

you are using the same injectors as jr right?


----------



## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Okay, so sorry for being the uniformed whiny bitch here, but which are then the correct injectors to use?
K03
K04
2871
3071
Just wondering


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
you are using the same injectors as jr right?

I dont know which ones he is using.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
I dont know which ones he is using.

he is using the same ones as me, that is what apr sent him, they work well


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
he is using the same ones as me, that is what apr sent him, they work well

just curious how do you know they are the same injectors?


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

probably the same way you figured out kmd injectors were oem rs4 injectors


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
just curious how do you know they are the same injectors?

pm'd


----------



## Chupathingy (Aug 1, 2005)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_Okay, so sorry for being the uniformed whiny bitch here, but which are then the correct injectors to use?
K03
K04
2871
3071
Just wondering
















which ever ones the software you're running is written for.


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_Okay, so sorry for being the uniformed whiny bitch here, but which are then the correct injectors to use?
K03
K04
2871
3071
Just wondering

















Green tops


----------



## MKV John (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_

Green tops










god, i wish it was that easy... effin eff ess eye


----------



## FuN:TuRBO (Sep 14, 2007)

can we get back on topic.. i really want to know if KMD is selling RS4 injectors..


----------



## MKV John (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: (FuN:TuRBO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FuN:TuRBO* »_can we get back on topic.. i really want to know if KMD is selling RS4 injectors..

why don't you call and ask.


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (FuN:TuRBO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FuN:TuRBO* »_can we get back on topic.. i really want to know if KMD is selling RS4 injectors..

They do... this is what they are selling... 
This is why the injectors have all the markings scratched off...


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

looks like the official injector scratch off technician is gonna get canned on Friday.


----------



## Courtney (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi* »_looks like the official injector scratch off technician is gonna get canned on Friday. 

omg


----------



## APR M1 (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_I like where this thread is going.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (APR M1)*

lmao sam you are to funny


----------



## Chupathingy (Aug 1, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (APR M1)*

looks like Mario is from northern Italy and Luigi looks Sicilian...and all this time I thought they were brothers


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Chupathingy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Chupathingy* »_looks like Mario is from northern Italy and Luigi looks Sicilian...and all this time I thought they were brothers









...bruthas from other muthas


----------



## doctorgonzo (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't think I'm out of line when I say this thread is ****. Hardware is hardware - injectors have x spray patter, and y flow and that's that. It doesn't matter if some ass hat has taken a soldering iron to the serials or not, the numbers are still there.
People want to know what injectors to use with their turbo. It's that simple. 
There are a lot of highly respected vortex members duking it out in this thread, and it has reduced this place to horse ****. There are PM's and secret agendas and all sorts of middle school politics, all over fuel injectors. It's retarded.
I'm taking my attitude, and going back to golfMKV.


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: (doctorgonzo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_I don't think I'm out of line when I say this thread is ****. Hardware is hardware - injectors have x spray patter, and y flow and that's that. It doesn't matter if some ass hat has taken a soldering iron to the serials or not, the numbers are still there.
People want to know what injectors to use with their turbo. It's that simple. 
There are a lot of highly respected vortex members duking it out in this thread, and it has reduced this place to horse ****. There are PM's and secret agendas and all sorts of middle school politics, all over fuel injectors. It's retarded.
I'm taking my attitude, and going back to golfMKV. 

good riddance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Fuel injectors are not X and Y =P
One thread does not make this place horse **** and if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen! Lol... What else can I say...
Oh yeah, if you elect me for the forum class president I promise to reduce the price of the cafeteria food and install coke machines in every classroom! (My middle school politics)
Sometimes debates and proving other wrong is how the truth is sorted out. It's not like the history of man kind has consisted of only one person stating the "undoubted" truth and nobody questioning it. If so I'm pretty sure we'd all be dead by now.


_Modified by gtiiiiiiii at 5:45 AM 10-22-2008_


----------



## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: (gtiiiiiiii)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtiiiiiiii* »_
good riddance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Fuel injectors are not X and Y =P
One thread does not make this place horse **** and if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen! Lol... What else can I say...
Oh yeah, if you elect me for the forum class president I promise to reduce the price of the cafeteria food and install coke machines in every classroom! (My middle school politics)
Sometimes debates and proving other wrong is how the truth is sorted out. It's not like the history of man kind has consisted of only one person stating the "undoubted" truth and nobody questioning it. If so I'm pretty sure we'd all be dead by now.

_Modified by gtiiiiiiii at 5:45 AM 10-22-2008_

well said, threads like this benefit everyone.. it helps get rid of the marketing bull **** and the opinions. Everyone wants logs and facts. People like me depend on others to share their knowledge cause I dont have the knowledge or resources to figure this stuff out myself.. props to REVO, [email protected], APR, Eurojet and every other 'expert' that has provided information to this forum. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (doctorgonzo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_I don't think I'm out of line when I say this thread is ****. Hardware is hardware - injectors have x spray patter, and y flow and that's that. It doesn't matter if some ass hat has taken a soldering iron to the serials or not, the numbers are still there.
People want to know what injectors to use with their turbo. It's that simple. 
There are a lot of highly respected vortex members duking it out in this thread, and it has reduced this place to horse ****. There are PM's and secret agendas and all sorts of middle school politics, all over fuel injectors. It's retarded.
I'm taking my attitude, and going back to golfMKV. 

gtfo, bye








Making comments like that show you don't really know all that much about how important the injectors really are to tuning these motors.
This thread is filled with important information, if you can't handle it you know where the door is.


----------



## GTIFast07 (Jun 6, 2008)

So what about the question for which injector is right for the types of turbos? I've read through this forum and still am unsure. If I'm running a gt3071 what do I need? I'm waiting on revo software to come out so I'm sure they will be specific about what to use. I am just curious now though.


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GTIFast07)*

JC is using the RS4 injectors on his Revo tuned 3071, thats what i would reccomend


----------



## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: (GTIFast07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTIFast07* »_So what about the question for which injector is right for the types of turbos? I've read through this forum and still am unsure. If I'm running a gt3071 what do I need? I'm waiting on revo software to come out so I'm sure they will be specific about what to use. I am just curious now though. 

REVO is tuned using RS4 / KMD injectors.


----------



## GTIFast07 (Jun 6, 2008)

Cool, thanks a lot


----------



## Eight-2-4 (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: (GTIFast07)*

I think my head is spinning from following this full thread!
"Hey guys, did you know you can buy Pepsi cheaper by ordering it direct?"
"Really? It's pricier at the store?"
"Forget Pepsi, buy Coke, it's better!"
"No, I drink Pepsi and I run really fast!"
"Pepsi? Heck, you should buy blueberries!"
"Blueberries! Yeah, that's the ticket!"





















...














...


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (Eight-2-4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Eight-2-4* »_I think my head is spinning from following this full thread!
"Hey guys, did you know you can buy Pepsi cheaper by ordering it direct?"
"Really? It's pricier at the store?"
"Forget Pepsi, buy Coke, it's better!"
"No, I drink Pepsi and I run really fast!"
"Pepsi? Heck, you should buy blueberries!"
No
"Blueberries! Yeah, that's the ticket!"





















...














...


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (Eight-2-4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Eight-2-4* »_I think my head is spinning from following this full thread!
"Hey guys, did you know you can buy Pepsi cheaper by ordering it direct?"
"Really? It's pricier at the store?"
"Forget Pepsi, buy Coke, it's better!"
"No, I drink Pepsi and I run really fast!"
"Pepsi? Heck, you should buy blueberries!"
"Blueberries! Yeah, that's the ticket!"





















...














...


----------



## bwzimmerman (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: (Eight-2-4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Eight-2-4* »_I think my head is spinning from following this full thread!
"Hey guys, did you know you can buy Pepsi cheaper by ordering it direct?"
"Really? It's pricier at the store?"
"Forget Pepsi, buy Coke, it's better!"
"No, I drink Pepsi and I run really fast!"
"Pepsi? Heck, you should buy blueberries!"
"Blueberries! Yeah, that's the ticket!"





















...














...









I think its more like...
"Hey guys that Micro Brewery is selling Miller Lite."
"Really? I kinda thought that but wow... they said its a special brew"
"Yeah, I know.. and they charge so much more and put their name on it"
"Wow, glad someone find that out."
"Me too, too bad Miller Lite isnt as good as Budweiser. Miller Lite has more callories and is filling."
"Well every one else drinking it likes it and it doesnt seem to be bad."
"Yeah, well even though I only sell Budweiser, I can assure you Miller Lite isnt good for you. Budweiser is the only choice for a real drinker."



_Modified by bwzimmerman at 9:19 PM 10-22-2008_


----------



## boosted mkv (Aug 21, 2007)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*

wow! looks like they mauled the hell out of those! check your 0 rings. 
And, yeah KMD "super mega bt injectors" are just stock rs4.


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: (boosted mkv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boosted mkv* »_wow! looks like they mauled the hell out of those! check your 0 rings. 
And, yeah KMD "super mega bt injectors" are just stock rs4.









Yup, after another look they are definatly RS4. They sealed up good on the install. 
When I got them I was like WTF is this ****? lolol. Then I realized what was going on with the scratching off. For a minute it looks like they pryed them off another car without the right tool. 
I'm sad because $400 could have paid for my RODS and have money left over for a full tank of gas! lol
I can't complain too much since I was able to acquire a used atp kit for only $1400!


----------



## 02VWGTIVR6 (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: (boosted mkv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boosted mkv* »_wow! looks like they mauled the hell out of those! check your 0 rings. 
And, yeah KMD "super mega bt injectors" are just stock rs4.









yep bottom line kmd has been strait ripping people off http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## Chupathingy (Aug 1, 2005)

*Re: (02VWGTIVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02VWGTIVR6* »_
yep bottom line kmd has been strait ripping people off http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

anybody that deals with those clowns is getting ripped off...


----------



## GLIzzie (Sep 6, 2007)

i read on the eurojet thread that the revo k04 file is tuned for the rs4 injectors that are included in their kit.. is that true? and would the use of these injectors over the standard s3 injectors provide any additional benefit? This would be the only k04 kit/tune that uses these injectors instead of the s3 type..


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (GLIzzie)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:49 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
I don't think so.....
S3 injectors are more than capable of covering a K04....

Wrong


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:48 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Man..can you finally quit being such a MORON ??
I don't need to inform you what setup i am running, but TRUST ME, the S3 injectors are more than enough for the K04.
And honestly, i don't give a sh*t if you agree or not.
Enough with the bull****.









Trust you? I mean really...come on now man. You talk a lot of game, but everyone already knows you know absolutely nothing about anything we've been talking about. 
If your trying to get 300 WHP out of a K04, then your right, the S3 injectors will suffice just fine. If your pushing the limits of the K04, that's a totally different story.
Pack up your bags, leave the thread, please don't come back.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:50 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## neuromancer_nyc (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Man..can you finally quit being such a MORON ??
I don't need to inform you what setup i am running, but TRUST ME, the S3 injectors are more than enough for the K04.
And honestly, i don't give a sh*t if you agree or not.
Enough with the bull****.









All you have to do is prove it. Then no one will challenge you.
People in these forums trust no one.
On another note I want to shout out KMD. I been going there for 2 years now and Danny, Dion, Mara, Aldwin, Chris are all good people. I know them all personally and not on just a customer/service shop basis. The haters will hate, just weather the storm.
To other tuners:
Why is it that you guys can do all the R&D, provide the same parts as others while putting up lower #'s and charging more money?








Oh that's right....you are holier than thou








These forums and all the bickering is getting tired. Bring on the flames









_Modified by neuromancer_nyc at 2:12 PM 10-23-2008_


_Modified by neuromancer_nyc at 2:14 PM 10-23-2008_


----------



## neuromancer_nyc (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Listen boy.


OHHHHHH..........








I gotta bust out the popcorn 4 this one


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Listen boy.
YOU are the one that doesn't have a clue.
Do YOU run a K04 ?
Do YOU run s3 injectors?
Do YOU have ANY logs ?
I don't think so...Well GUESS WHAT...I DO...TONS of them...
And so it seems you are also clueless as to what HP a K04 is capable of.
I tell you what..You show me your proof, and i'll show you mine.
Then you can go troll wherever they'll let you.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. Everyone who frequents these boards already knows that you know absolutely nothing about these cars/motors/tuning/anything in general really.
You can continue to post about how amazing your ko4/tuning/car is, but lets face it champ..... No one believes anything you say anymore.....Your a joke http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. Everyone who frequents these boards already knows that you know absolutely nothing about these cars/motors/tuning/anything in general really.
You can continue to post about how amazing your ko4/tuning/car is, but lets face it champ..... No one believes anything you say anymore.....Your a joke http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 









Words mean nothing. Numbers speak the truth http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:03 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Judging by your mods list in your sig....if i were you i wouldn't talk that much...
If that is you idea of moding, than i guess S3 injectors aren't enough for you either...
_Mods List:
DOT 72 Super green blinker fluid...45 wheel HP
Re-Enforced McFinnigan pins.........35 wheel HP
LaminX on my fogzzz...................20 wheel HP_

Now you tell me....who takes you seriously.....
Maybe you wanted to say.... YOU are the joke...
Yeah...that must be it...

Clearly you are far too ignorant to understand or appreciate sarcasm. I don't need to tell the whole world how much money i have invested in my vehicle. People who know me know what i have in my car.
You sir, are a fool. When you post in here regarding any sort of technical data, people ignore you.
No one believes you, your a liar.
Finally, your a fool. You talk so much crap, with zero information to back it up except for your ridiculous opinions based on false and un-educated assumptions. GTFO


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: (neuromancer_nyc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *neuromancer_nyc* »_
OHHHHHH..........








I gotta bust out the popcorn 4 this one

IN THE BLUE CORNER WEIGHING IN AT .... .... 
popcorn... a few beers... this could get interesting...


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:49 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif KMD http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Judging by your mods list in your sig....if i were you i wouldn't talk that much...
If that is you idea of moding, than i guess S3 injectors aren't enough for you either...
Now you tell me....who takes you seriously.....
Maybe you wanted to say.... YOU are the joke...
Yeah...that must be it...

Man this is good








BTW As one of many I take him completely seriously + respected http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (Noside)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 8:05 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_I have all the data in the world

WOW some better tell REVO, APR and Eurojet this guy stole all their data


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
WOW some better tell REVO, APR and Eurojet this guy stole all their data









Now THATS FUNNY....










_Modified by GolfRS at 8:06 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
WOW some better tell REVO, APR and Eurojet this guy stole all their data









I smell law suits coming.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

I don't know about any of you...but as far as I can see...THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO DATA in this thread. There's a lot of hypotheses and speculating, but I don't see any hard conclusive evidence on the different levels of function/performance from these injector types. Thus far in six pages we have determined exactly what was stated in the very first post + Todd was nice enough to post the spray pattern for the different injectors (but I don't think he mentioned what BAR those patterns were at...so, I'm not sure how useful that information can be). Does anyone have any logs from there car...what their set-up is...and can back up any of their statements?


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

here is an easy fix, use whatever injectors the software company of your choice tuned their software around.... then there is no need for speculations. None of these injectors is gonna work better in any given scenario than what the sw company used when making it's tune. Revo seems to like the s4 injectors, they even tuned their ko4 file around them. giac/awe are using stock/s3 on their ko4. as far as unitronic, I am unsure what injectors they are tuning around. No need to worry about APR, you won't get their software w/out their hardware.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_here is an easy fix, use whatever injectors the software company of your choice tuned their software around.... then there is no need for speculations. None of these injectors is gonna work better in any given scenario than what the sw company used when making it's tune. Revo seems to like the s4 injectors, they even tuned their ko4 file around them. giac/awe are using stock/s3 on their ko4. as far as unitronic, I am unsure what injectors they are tuning around. *No need to worry about APR, you won't get their software w/out their hardware. *

Incorrect, they've been selling their K04 software for $299 for quite some time now . . .
Dave


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:50 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_No need to worry about *GIAC*, you won't get their software w/out *AWE/STASIS* hardware. 

Fixed it for you...GIAC, as far as I have know, is the only company not offering k04 software outside of their partner companys' hardware.


----------



## [email protected]ouglas (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
No they didn't....

yes they did, looks like you super knowledge failed you again
revo has beta files for both the s3 and rs4 injectors running in cars all around the world


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
Fixed it for you...GIAC, as far as I have know, is the only company not offering k04 software outside of their partner companys' hardware. 

true, although eurojet had this to say after talking to their local giac dealer

_Quote, originally posted by *Eurojet Racing* »_
You can get the GIAC base file, so I have been told by our local dealer, with our kit. And, you would still be saving money and getting more options if you bought our kit over the other offering. 

but, there seems to be a lot of commotion with the giac ko4 file as of late.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 6:56 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

i know what you run, and you should also know they run both s3 and rs4 injectors with beta software


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:50 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Right...
Question is do you know why they do that ??
Cause i do.

yes i do, are you on a power trip you think you are someone special or something because you have a k04?
i don't think their is 1 person on these forms that can stand your comments and the way only what you do is the right way to do things


_Modified by [email protected] at 8:41 AM 10-24-2008_


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

_Modified by GolfRS at 7:51 PM 10-24-2008_


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

after 2 pages a thread is worthless... someone end this.


----------



## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: (ShutItDown)*

LOCK this stupid ass thread


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_I don't know about any of you...but as far as I can see...THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO DATA in this thread. There's a lot of hypotheses and speculating, but I don't see any hard conclusive evidence on the different levels of function/performance from these injector types. Thus far in six pages we have determined exactly what was stated in the very first post + Todd was nice enough to post the spray pattern for the different injectors (but I don't think he mentioned what BAR those patterns were at...so, I'm not sure how useful that information can be). Does anyone have any logs from there car...what their set-up is...and can back up any of their statements?

We presented very scientific data confirmed first hand by the injector manufacturer.
I am not sure why the assumption is being made that test pressure matters. We have shown that as long as the right correction equation is used, test pressure is not a factor.
It seems that people want to go on less scientific results such as wheel power and qtr mile times. While such results are impressive, they do not necessarily confirm what is going on in the combustion chamber and how relatively safe it may be.
We have shown that RS4 injectors:
Flow ~ the same volume as stock
Have a very different spray pattern vs stock
Are being used in a currently available K04 kit and being advertised as having dramatically higher flow vs stock

If people want to ignore that info, so be it. We found it to be extremely interesting.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

todd the part i don't understand is how if they are stock size, at 500whp the sniffer on the dyno at the end of the exhaust still picks up the a/f ratio as right where we want it


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_todd the part i don't understand is how if they are stock size, at 500whp the sniffer on the dyno at the end of the exhaust still picks up the a/f ratio as right where we want it

That is similar to results we have seen, too, and to be honest, if we did not have part throttle and idle starting issues, we may not have investigated the rest of the story about the RS4 injectors.
When our ASNU injector test stand arrived, we tested a lot of injectors. It was then obvious why the RS4 injectors worked so poorly at part throttle and during cold starts. The spray pattern was way off vs stock.
However, we were very confused why we saw such high A/F results via the OBD wideband and tailpipe probes when the RS4 injectors flowed about the same as stock. We thought maybe our test stand was reading wrongly or needed to be run at a higher pressure. After several weeks, we were finally able to get an answer from Hitachi, and their specs matched what we saw on our test stand.
So that left the question: why such rich a/f ratios from a stock flowing injector? I think the answer lies in the way that the spray pattern atomizes in the 2.0T combustion chamber differently than in the RS4 combustion chamber, which produces a "false positive" when ONLY measuring the exhaust gasses. 
Let's face it, lean is mean. You can make a lot more power running on the ragged lean edge of fueling, so while things may not have popped on you, you are not necessarily running in a true air/fuel range that is safe for a mass produced kit.


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
No i'm not on a "power trip", i just hate being doubted when i say something that i have seen and logged many many times.And having someone like MKC7 tell me "i'm wrong" when he doesn't even know what a K04 looks like is hilarious...
It doesn't take an expert to log you know, nor does it take an expert to see when fueling is running short or not...


I remember when this guy first showed up. Rude then, rude now








Why do you even say things like you do?
"show me yours and I'll show you mine"
"do you even know blah blah blah? because I do!"
Honestly noone cares, if you have something to share, then share it. It doesn't do anybody any good if you think you have some sort of info but don't even share it with anyone...
I honestly have seen very very few posts of yours that contributed anything, it's always negative, proving someone wrong, denying someones claims or technical data, etc.
If you have something to contribute, then awesome, do it. Otherwise why are you even here? You already have "all the data in the world" so why would you come on here? It's DEFINITELY not to make friends....
And trying to say someone doesn't know anything because of his mod list is really truly weak in my opinion. As if his mod list dictates anything about the person at all. Especially when it's a sarcastic completely untrue mod list...


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

interesting, i do pull the plugs and check them out as well as use a borescope to check the pistons, walls and valves every couple thousand miles and everything looks good so far http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif i guess at this point it is just a waiting game to see how everything plays out right now i have no ill affects to them
edit: i just want to throw it out their i now have 15K miles on the BT kit with the RS4 injectors and REVO software


_Modified by [email protected] at 9:57 AM 10-24-2008_


----------



## FSIGTI (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
That is similar to results we have seen, too, and to be honest, if we did not have part throttle and idle starting issues, we may not have investigated the rest of the story about the RS4 injectors.
When our ASNU injector test stand arrived, we tested a lot of injectors. It was then obvious why the RS4 injectors worked so poorly at part throttle and during cold starts. The spray pattern was way off vs stock.
However, we were very confused why we saw such high A/F results via the OBD wideband and tailpipe probes when the RS4 injectors flowed about the same as stock. We thought maybe our test stand was reading wrongly or needed to be run at a higher pressure. After several weeks, we were finally able to get an answer from Hitachi, and their specs matched what we saw on our test stand.
So that left the question: why such rich a/f ratios from a stock flowing injector? I think the answer lies in the way that the spray pattern atomizes in the 2.0T combustion chamber differently than in the RS4 combustion chamber, which produces a "false positive" when ONLY measuring the exhaust gasses. 
Let's face it, lean is mean. You can make a lot more power running on the ragged lean edge of fueling, so while things may not have popped on you, you are not necessarily running in a true air/fuel range that is safe for a mass produced kit.


So just because it's working doesn't mean that it's necessarily great for the engine. My question then is so what is good for the engine while still being capable of running 500+whp..


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (gtiiiiiiii)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtiiiiiiii* »_
I remember when this guy first showed up. Rude then, rude now








Why do you even say things like you do?
"show me yours and I'll show you mine"
"do you even know blah blah blah? because I do!"
Honestly noone cares, if you have something to share, then share it. It doesn't do anybody any good if you think you have some sort of info but don't even share it with anyone...
I honestly have seen very very few posts of yours that contributed anything, it's always negative, proving someone wrong, denying someones claims or technical data, etc.
If you have something to contribute, then awesome, do it. Otherwise why are you even here? You already have "all the data in the world" so why would you come on here? It's DEFINITELY not to make friends....
And trying to say someone doesn't know anything because of his mod list is really truly weak in my opinion. As if his mod list dictates anything about the person at all. Especially when it's a sarcastic completely untrue mod list...

It really doesn't matter anymore....


----------



## FSIGTI (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_interesting, i do pull the plugs and check them out as well as use a borescope to check the pistons, walls and valves every couple thousand miles and everything looks good so far http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif i guess at this point it is just a waiting game to see how everything plays out right now i have no ill affects to them
edit: i just want to throw it out their i now have 15K miles on the BT kit with the RS4 injectors and REVO software

_Modified by [email protected] at 9:57 AM 10-24-2008_

I'm no rocket scientist but could it be the W/M that is making everything work well. That's the only logical explanation in my head right now.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_interesting, i do pull the plugs and check them out as well as use a borescope to check the pistons, walls and valves every couple thousand miles and everything looks good so far http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif i guess at this point it is just a waiting game to see how everything plays out right now i have no ill affects to them
edit: i just want to throw it out their i now have 15K miles on the BT kit with the RS4 injectors and REVO software

_Modified by [email protected] at 9:57 AM 10-24-2008_

What fuel are you running? That can be helping here a lot.
As a company policy, now that we know the whole story on the RS4 injectors, we are not comfortable selling them for pump fuel use on the 2.0T, regardless how their flow rate is advertised.
They are very reasonably priced, so I wish our findings were different.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (FSIGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSIGTI* »_
So just because it's working doesn't mean that it's necessarily great for the engine. My question then is so what is good for the engine while still being capable of running 500+whp..

On pump fuel? That is a good question.
Some specialty designs we have experimented with are stable up to around 400whp on pump, when couple with our HPFP. They were extremely expensive to make, though.
For the record, there are no drop in Bosch Motorsport injectors for this engine, and any Bosch Motorsport DI injector is running around $1k EACH! We ruled them out for our turbo kit use right there!


----------



## FSIGTI (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
What fuel are you running? That can be helping here a lot.
As a company policy, now that we know the whole story on the RS4 injectors, we are not comfortable selling them for pump fuel use on the 2.0T, regardless how their flow rate is advertised.
They are very reasonably priced, so I wish our findings were different.









So what injectors are you guys using on your kits now?


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## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (FSIGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSIGTI* »_
So what injectors are you guys using on your kits now?

We have a fueling kit upgrade for our transverse K04 kit that uses S3 injectors.
On our Garrett Turbo kit that is about to be released for the longitudinal 2.0T, we will initially be using modified S3 injectors and then will be moving to a different proprietary processed injector in a couple months (there is a lead time from our current contractor). We'll probably make these new injectors available separately at that time. 
What is nice is that if this proprietary process works out, we'll have high flow TSI injectors very soon, too. TSI injectors are completely different from FSI...


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

i run on 93oct, todd can you get us pictures of your complete test stand with the GDI add on? how long are you spraying the injectors for??
i am gonna order one of these things and put it in my garage, i wonder if i can write it off on my taxes


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i run on 93oct, todd can you get us pictures of your complete test stand with the GDI add on? how long are you spraying the injectors for??
i am gonna order one of these things and put it in my garage, i wonder if i can write it off on my taxes









I don't see why not. I wrote off all my mods to my car as maintenance, advertisement and amerition. I've got a hell of a CPA if you need one.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*

can i write off more in parts and tools than i even make in a year?


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

Somehow I missed this thread. Ughhh. Just read through the entire 7 pages. And boy did KMD and GolfRS get to ride the fail train here LOL


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_More fuel for the fire.
What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:
Stock = 1080 cc/min
RS4 = 1091 cc/min
S3 = 1217 cc/min


Now I am curious with these results...
If KMD is claiming 40% more flow rate... why does it seem nearly the same as a stock injector...


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i run on 93oct, todd can you get us pictures of your complete test stand with the GDI add on? how long are you spraying the injectors for??
i am gonna order one of these things and put it in my garage, i wonder if i can write it off on my taxes










Injector on time is dependent on the test being done:
Static - 15 second test
Dynamic - 1 min test, 4 ms on time, 3600 pulses


----------



## doctorgonzo (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

For however pretty and impressive that test stand is, there are some issues with it:
1. Volumetric vs gravimetric flow measurement. Gravimetric is MUCH more accurate. A graduated cylinder collection method (used on the ASNU machine) is about as low tech as it gets for volumetric measurement. You're essentially eyeballing it.
2. What is your test fluid??? How does the viscosity compare to gasoline? Has this been taken into account?
3. Injector test stand electronics do not match the electrical environment of the vehicle, in fact they aren't even SAE approved
4. Were fuel filters ("strainers," in VW speak) used during ALL of the testing? You can't test flow accurately without them.
Just trying to avoid "ooooh pretty machine" smoke and mirrors. 








Chris (back for more abuse, woohoo)


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (doctorgonzo)*

In regards to GolfRS: I don't need to prove myself to you kind sir. Things i say make sense, where as things you say make none.....'nough said. I've also determined that your "K04 GTI" is actually a moped with a leaf blower attached to it, thats why we haven't gotten logs yet......
AWE: While i can appreciate the testing you have done on the injectors and the data you are providing us with, there has got to be something missing. If the flow rate is pretty much comparable to the stock injectors, then how is JC capable of 500 WHP using the RS4 injectors? We all know very well that stock injectors are not capable of anywhere near 500 WHP.
Secondly, its a fact at this point that at least one very reputable and knowledgeable company is using RS4 injectors on theie BT applications. I don't think they would be sending these injectors out for use if they did not function properly.
Thirdly, i understand that you guys might have had some issues with the RS4 injectors, but what real world testing (besides the flow bench which doesn't really convince me, too many variables) have you done? Pretty much everyone that has posted in here and is running RS4 injectors has had zero problems with cold starts and part throttle driving.
Once again, please don't think this as an attack on AWE, I'm simply wondering how one company can determine the RS4 injectors are no good, while other company's that are equally as reputable use them in their BT kits and applications. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (doctorgonzo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_For however pretty and impressive that test stand is, there are some issues with it:
1. Volumetric vs gravimetric flow measurement. Gravimetric is MUCH more accurate. A graduated cylinder collection method (used on the ASNU machine) is about as low tech as it gets for volumetric measurement. You're essentially eyeballing it.

 
Except that our "eyeballing" has already been confirmed by third party sources, so you are splitting hairs here. We are not arguing about fractions of a ml.


_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_
2. What is your test fluid??? How does the viscosity compare to gasoline? Has this been taken into account?

 
It is a common solvent used by injection test services called Flowrite. It has same specific gravity and viscosity to gasoline and is non-flammable. That is injection testing 101.

_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_
3. Injector test stand electronics do not match the electrical environment of the vehicle, in fact they aren't even SAE approved

 
See the scope next to the tester? That is to cross check current, voltage, and duty cycle of testing to ensure it is matching OEM characteristics.
Also, any error caused by the electronic system would show itself in a dynamic test. The reduction in flow caused by the opening and closing of the pintle is very small, ~3% vs static. 

_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_
4. Were fuel filters ("strainers," in VW speak) used during ALL of the testing? You can't test flow accurately without them.

 
The filter baskets are kept intact on the injector inlets.
And just like a dyno, as long as the same test protocols are used for all test subjects, the data comparisons are valid. So even if we didn't use filters here, the relative results remain accurate.

_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_
Just trying to avoid "ooooh pretty machine" smoke and mirrors. 

 
I am not sure why you would automatically assume this was smoke and mirrors. I am not sure who buys a machine like this just to brag about it. It has a very critical role in our product development and is worth more to us in generating accurate data than it ever would be as marketing tool.

_Quote, originally posted by *doctorgonzo* »_









 
Right back at ya.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
Thirdly, i understand that you guys might have had some issues with the RS4 injectors, but what real world testing (besides the flow bench which doesn't really convince me, too many variables) have you done? Pretty much everyone that has posted in here and is running RS4 injectors has had zero problems with cold starts and part throttle driving.



It is much more prevalent on the longitudinal cars, yet we have seen it also on the transverse. Yet VW owners seem to have a higher tolerance to these issues before complaining.
We have done 2 years of BT development on the 2.0T. We've seen a lot in that time.

_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
Once again, please don't think this as an attack on AWE, I'm simply wondering how one company can determine the RS4 injectors are no good, while other company's that are equally as reputable use them in their BT kits and applications. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

We are more familiar with another company's BT kit that uses these injectors than usual, simply because initially it was a joint project. 
All I can say regarding RS4 injectors "supposedly" having proper results is that ignorance is bliss. Just going by tailpipe and OBD wide bands is not enough in this case. It was a surprise to us, too, but we are glad to have discovered it.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_In regards to GolfRS: I don't need to prove myself to you kind sir. Things i say make sense, where as things you say make none.....'nough said. I've also determined that your "K04 GTI" is actually a moped with a leaf blower attached to it, thats why we haven't gotten logs yet......


You are lucky there are some people i consider my friends, that i actually don't want to put in a difficult position.May be you should do that to...
I'm done talking to you.
Enjoy yourself....


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
We are more familiar with another company's BT kit that uses these injectors than usual, simply because initially it was a joint project. 


And all along I thought they were using s3 injectors


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
You are lucky there are some people i consider my friends, that i actually don't want to put in a difficult position.May be you should do that to...
I'm done talking to you.
Enjoy yourself....

I'm not putting anyone in a difficult position, i'm callling you a liar http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
AWE: Thanks for all the info. While i still think RS4 injectors are totally useable, i respect your info and opinion. Is there anyway to view flow results at 130 bar?


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
All I can say regarding RS4 injectors "supposedly" having proper results is that ignorance is bliss. Just going by tailpipe and OBD wide bands is not enough in this case. It was a surprise to us, too, but we are glad to have discovered it.

I don't know if "supposedly" fits here. Many cars are currently using the injectors without said issues. Also, i'm not sure how many more AFR readings you can ask for. If Vagcom, a wideband, and a sniffer are all saying its running proper, then its pretty safe to say its running proper no?


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
I don't know if "supposedly" fits here. Many cars are currently using the injectors without said issues. Also, i'm not sure how many more AFR readings you can ask for. If Vagcom, a wideband, and a sniffer are all saying its running proper, then its pretty safe to say its running proper no?

I guess you could measure individual cylinder egt's


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
I don't know if "supposedly" fits here. Many cars are currently using the injectors without said issues. Also, i'm not sure how many more AFR readings you can ask for. If Vagcom, a wideband, and a sniffer are all saying its running proper, then its pretty safe to say its running proper no?

Hey, I totally understand what you are thinking. Up until the RS4 injector issue, we felt the same way.
However, I think conventional thinking that we all did with traditional pre-valve injectors does not apply anymore.
Here is a proven case where an DI injector has about the same flow rate as a stock FSI injector, but reads richer at the tailpipe. With conventional injectors, that would never happen.
But these are DI injectors, firing directly into the combustion chamber. I think we have shown that conventional flow rate assumptions can't be made anymore.
What is distinctively different here is the spray pattern. I'm not sure if anyone outside the original designers of these injectors knows how spray pattern may affect tailpipe readings.
Just remember that tailpipe readings are only reading oxygen content AFTER the combustion process. It still does not tell you 100% what is happening inside the combustion chamber. There may be hot spots and localized atomization anomalies not normally seen with a pre-valve injector that uses the valve to help with atomization and dispersion throughout the chamber.
Hitachi confirmed our RS4 injector flow readings.
I challenge you to make sense of it, too. 
But assuming that the RS4 injectors do NOT flow the same as stock would be incorrect.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (FSI-King)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSI-King* »_
I guess you could measure individual cylinder egt's

Yes, but then you have to ask: what ratio is too lean on a DI engine? A few tuners have argued that running as rich as stock is the only safe way to tune, which may simply be overly conservative.
I think it is possible that the specific actual air/fuel ratio in the chamber may be much leaner than when measured post chamber when using the RS4 injectors, which may simply be challenging conventional wisdom on how rich a DI engine really has to be run for safety. 
It is a FACT that the RS4 injectors flow essentially the same as stock. 
The challenge now is how to reconcile that fact with the rest of the data.
All we know is that the spray pattern + the stock flow rate = RS4 injectors crossed off our list for a mass produced kit. Too many unknowns and too many better alternatives.
Like I said before, ignorance is bliss here. Not knowing that the RS4 injectors flowed the same as stock and had a different spray pattern made our lives easier. 
Now that we know differently, we can't ignore the facts.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
AWE: Thanks for all the info. While i still think RS4 injectors are totally useable, i respect your info and opinion. Is there anyway to view flow results at 130 bar?

There is no point in doing so. Don't listen to us, listen to Hitachi. Their ratings matched ours, no matter what pressure we each measured at. 
Using the proper math, it does not matter what pressure you test at. You can model the behavior accurately.


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

There is some excellent information being introduced in this thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (MKC7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKC7* »_
I'm not putting anyone in a difficult position, i'm callling you a liar http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Yeah...you don't have a clue..thats your problem....


----------



## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

*Would*

I'm sorry, but why you guys wouldn't stop blaming each other... ??







This is so childish and nobody dont want to read about.... Lets go back to the thread subject and forget who is better tuner and who knows more than god about these things








No disrespect for anyone...







- iSot



_Modified by iSot at 5:23 AM 10-25-2008_


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: (yvrnycracer)*

It's amazing how very little information this thread contains........
I haven't been paying very much attention to the whole fuel injector thing around here, but I'm curious, has KMD ever actually said where they sourced there injectors from? I mean, they have to get them from somewhere, and I'm sure they don't make them themselves.
Is it at all possible that their source is either rebuilding an RS4 (or other stock FSI injector) or building a fresh injector using the RS4 injector's plastic case? After all, this is pretty much what APR is doing with their fuel pumps right?
In another note I think it's great how APR shows up, throws fuel on the fire (posted about 10x in the first 2 pages), then hasn't posted anything other than an "omg" or "lol" since.

_Quote, originally posted by *yvrnycracer* »_
Now I am curious with these results...
If KMD is claiming 40% more flow rate... why does it seem nearly the same as a stock injector...








So far (according to AWE anyway) it only seems that the RS4 injector flows nearly the same as stock. You are still assuming that the speculators are correct and KMD injectors are RS4 injectors.
Lets solve this once and for all using a purely scientific method.........
AWE needs to throw a *KMD* injector on that spiffy new fuel injector stand (that they probably bought from the same flea market they bought their magic dyno) , hook up the garden hose and see what these things can really do!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (blackvento36)*

If you read back through the thread and connect the dots, you just may find that what you are asking for has already been done. It was subtle, but I am trying to politically correct here.
(I'll ignore the dyno comment, even though we've been using a dyno in house longer than most VW tuning companies have even been in business)


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

the kmd injector is an oem RS4 injector, it is not modified
these are the RS4's
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1408
and these are some sort of bosch motorsports i think
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1122



_Modified by [email protected] at 7:12 AM 10-25-2008_


----------



## FSI-King (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_the kmd injector is an oem RS4 injector, it is not modified
these are the RS4's
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1408
and these are some sort of bosch motorsports i think
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1122
i don't believe those are bosch motorsport injectors. I installed the ones pictured for a customer and he had the unitronic file for RS4 flashed on it and the car ran as if it were tune for those injectors.

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:12 AM 10-25-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (FSI-King)*

you might be right


----------



## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_the kmd injector is an oem RS4 injector, it is not modified
these are the RS4's
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1408
and these are some sort of bosch motorsports i think
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1122

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:12 AM 10-25-2008_


Mazda MS3 ?


_Modified by EL_3grab at 7:26 PM 10-25-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_the kmd injector is an oem RS4 injector, it is not modified
these are the RS4's
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1408
and these are some sort of bosch motorsports i think
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1122


Those are identical.

_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_

Mazda MS3 ?


incompatible.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_the kmd injector is an oem RS4 injector, it is not modified
these are the RS4's
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1408


mmm those look familiar







thanks Jeff


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

ANYONE HEARD FROM KMD?


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

One is scratched and the other is not. Both the same.


----------



## MKC7 (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (Lou_Y2mK5)*

Nice! You get to pay almost 400 dollars more for a set that is labeled differently on their website with the part number mangled off


----------



## blackvento36 (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_the kmd injector is an oem RS4 injector, it is not modified
these are the RS4's
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1408
and these are some sort of bosch motorsports i think
http://kmdtuning.com/store/ind...=1122
_Modified by [email protected] at 7:12 AM 10-25-2008_
I was talking about the ones you say you think are Bosch Motorsports injectors. 
I'm not sure I'm understanding here.......
The OP 8is claiming the $900+ injectors must be de-badged RS4s, but RS4s are made by Hitachi correct? I don't see why they would be scratching off any Bosch motorsports insignia, and since bosch doesn't manufacture the OEM injectors I don't see why they would have a part number on them to scratch off.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (APR M1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *APR M1* »_










How much shipped to 19701?








Everyone else: Chill out and try listening to yourself before you click "Submit Post":


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (OOOO-A3)*

Well I just got done installing a set of RS-4 injectors on my APR stage 3 I have it now in STOCK mode and it starts and runs pretty much like stock . Im going to keep it in stock mode for the morning cold start and trip to work and then see what the fuel trims look like. 
I then look for codes clear them and the fuel trims and put it in 93oct and retest cold starts and trims. 
APR should have been using these injectors from the beginning in there stage 3 kit ,how can a small shop like KMD figure out that these would work well on a bigger turbo and a company with all those engineers they brag about just over-look them,but now start using them in there Stage 3 ??







Bob.G


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (OOOO-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OOOO-A3* »_
How much shipped to 19701?








Everyone else: Chill out and try listening to yourself before you click "Submit Post":









xkcd much?


----------



## Slowboat (Feb 12, 2003)

*Must be modified Bosch Motorsport injectors*

Haven't read all the pages thoroughly but I came across an article of the Bosch Motorsport Direct Injector.
Their flow is rated at 1800cc per minute which is over 40% more than stock. It is known as "HP Injection Valve HDEV 1.2".
Looks like you don't get an injector for our motors from them.
Could KMD have used parts out of this injector?


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: Must be modified Bosch Motorsport injectors (Slowboat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slowboat* »_Haven't read all the pages thoroughly but I came across an article of the Bosch Motorsport Direct Injector.
Their flow is rated at 1800cc per minute which is over 40% more than stock. It is known as "HP Injection Valve HDEV 1.2".
Looks like you don't get an injector for our motors from them.
Could KMD have used parts out of this injector?

Found it!


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: Must be modified Bosch Motorsport injectors (Lou_Y2mK5)*

Another look at the KMD Injector to compare. 








They are not the same. 








Bosch Motorsport...










_Modified by Lou_Y2mK5 at 7:17 AM 11-7-2008_


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

the kmd injectors are oem rs4 injectors with the #s ground/melted off.....


----------



## munky18t (Aug 30, 2004)

*Re: Must be modified Bosch Motorsport injectors (Lou_Y2mK5)*

of course they are the same... they have the same blue o-ring


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: Must be modified Bosch Motorsport injectors (Lou_Y2mK5)*

Bosch does not make a standard motorsport injector for the FSI cars. They are made to order. I have had Bosch quote me on motorsport injectors to my specs and they are custom and not cheap. The info page for the HDEV 1.2 injector that is being shown is actually a generic page and does not have any actual specs for any specific injector. They are just providing the upper limits of the HDEV 1.2 platform. As I already stated, the actual "motorsport" injectors are made to order and not something that you can find easily. In addition, the 2.0T FSI cars (BPY) are running injectors from the HDEV 1.1 series which is slightly different than the HDEV 1.2 series. The newer cars (CCTA) aren't running either of these styles as they have been discontinued from development, even though they are still in production. 
The statements I have made here have nothing to do with KMD but I am just providing some info to clarify what was being discussed later in the thread. 

_Modified by [email protected] at 11:44 AM 11-7-2008_


_Modified by [email protected] at 3:43 PM 11-7-2008_


----------



## Lloyd Plumtree (Aug 13, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Clean job getting rid of the lettering and part numbers. WTF?!


----------



## Couch Gentleman (Jan 14, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Lloyd Plumtree)*

Good Information [email protected] http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Couch Gentleman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Couch Gentleman* »_Good Information [email protected] http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

x 2 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Lou_Y2mK5)*

*** update *** 
These RS4 injectors run spot on http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif almost flawless on cold start ( considering they are FSI injectors) and no drive-ability issues to speak of . 
I would recommend them to anyone going with a BT with goals up too around 375- 400whp , depending on your software company's target A/F ratio. 
This is on my APR Stage 3 with ZERO software change YET, my next thing is to get that wimpy tune off my ECU LOL







.Bob.G


----------



## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_*** update *** 
These RS4 injectors run spot on http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif almost flawless on cold start ( considering they are FSI injectors) and no drive-ability issues to speak of . 
I would recommend them to anyone going with a BT with goals up too around 375- 400whp , depending on your software company's target A/F ratio. 
This is on my APR Stage 3 with ZERO software change YET, my next thing is to get that wimpy tune off my ECU LOL







.Bob.G



Is there a point in dyno'ing the car with these injectores before any software change ?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (EL_3grab)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_

Is there a point in dyno'ing the car with these injectores before any software change ?
 
I would be wasting my time and money AGAIN , it dosn't pull any harder but car pulls smooth and most important cold starts are mis-fire free = no more CEL that's Ive been starring at me about 18 months now. 
The injectors also took car of a intermittent drifting high idle I was getting causing stored codes and CEL 
Now that I know all my hardware is fine (injectors,all sensors,etc )
It's time for software update .







Bob.G


----------



## brandon0221 (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*

I think APR Stage 3 is just not intended for Jettas o I mean GLI's







.


----------



## akeem (Mar 26, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (brandon0221)*

a lot of good information in this thread, I have been lurking for a while. Do we know the flow rate of APR's injectors? Could we get one tested for the sake of science?


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (akeem)*


_Quote, originally posted by *akeem* »_ Do we know the flow rate of APR's injectors? Could we get one tested for the sake of science?
 
The last I HEARD they where around 1400cc.
I have a set sitting right infront of me I can send to a company like AWE that has the proper testing equipment . 
Todd is more than welcome to test them if he is going to share the info with the community .







Bob.G


----------



## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*

Your idle issue will come back


----------



## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
The last I HEARD they where around 1400cc.
I have a set sitting right infront of me I can send to a company like AWE that has the proper testing equipment . 
Todd is more than welcome to test them if he is going to share the info with the community .







Bob.G

Do it!! Do it!!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
The last I HEARD they where around 1400cc.
I have a set sitting right infront of me I can send to a company like AWE that has the proper testing equipment . 
Todd is more than welcome to test them if he is going to share the info with the community .







Bob.G

I think this injector discussion has been good for the community and would be willing to test those injectors for the sake of public info. 
APR has the same machine that we do, so they can even tell us ahead of time how to ensure we get the same results that they would see.
I cannot see how their test protocols may be different than ours, but I want to eliminate as many points of controversy as possible.


----------



## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_*** update *** 
These RS4 injectors run spot on http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif almost flawless on cold start ( considering they are FSI injectors) and no drive-ability issues to speak of . 
I would recommend them to anyone going with a BT with goals up too around 375- 400whp , depending on your software company's target A/F ratio. 
This is on my APR Stage 3 with ZERO software change YET, my next thing is to get that wimpy tune off my ECU LOL







.Bob.G


So these OEM RS4 FSI injectors works just fine with APR Stage 3 setup without any software change... Interesting...







Is that true, that Revo makes/produce their softwares by using these RS4 FSI injectors for future BT kit references ? -iSot


_Modified by iSot at 9:30 AM 11-11-2008_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (iSot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iSot* »_
Is that true, that Revo makes/produce their softwares by using these RS4 FSI injectors for future BT kit references ? -iSot
 
Yes Revo and UNI BT also as far as I know .







Bob.G


----------



## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*

Nice to know http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Report back immediately, if you are having any future updates...














-iSot


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (iSot)*

REVO IS TOO QUITE!!!! Hurry up and release already!


----------



## Sandman333 (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Hey, I totally understand what you are thinking. Up until the RS4 injector issue, we felt the same way.
However, I think conventional thinking that we all did with traditional pre-valve injectors does not apply anymore.
Here is a proven case where an DI injector has about the same flow rate as a stock FSI injector, but reads richer at the tailpipe. With conventional injectors, that would never happen.
But these are DI injectors, firing directly into the combustion chamber. I think we have shown that conventional flow rate assumptions can't be made anymore.
What is distinctively different here is the spray pattern. I'm not sure if anyone outside the original designers of these injectors knows how spray pattern may affect tailpipe readings.
Just remember that tailpipe readings are only reading oxygen content AFTER the combustion process. It still does not tell you 100% what is happening inside the combustion chamber. There may be hot spots and localized atomization anomalies not normally seen with a pre-valve injector that uses the valve to help with atomization and dispersion throughout the chamber.
Hitachi confirmed our RS4 injector flow readings.
I challenge you to make sense of it, too. 
But assuming that the RS4 injectors do NOT flow the same as stock would be incorrect.


Is it possible that the cat is efficient enough that it is burning up any remaining hydrocarbons and smoothing the results you are seeing, or are you taking your measurements pre-cat? I don't have a lot of knowledge about how these things work.


----------



## fahrenheit 525 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Yes Revo and UNI BT also as far as I know .







Bob.G

are these what eurodyne is using also??


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (fahrenheit 525)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fahrenheit 525* »_
are these what eurodyne is using also??

NO.


----------



## passatG60 (Aug 16, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
NO.

you sure bob







?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (passatG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *passatG60* »_
you sure bob







?

i called their for a customer and talked to chris, he told me all his injectors are oem injectors sent out and redone to his spec however i will add that was about 8 months ago so things might have changed


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (passatG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *passatG60* »_
you sure bob







?

Arnold that was the last i knew unless its changed Im sure you would know better?







Bob.G


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

i just got a set off of ebay for 250 shipped.








plan on installing them once the weather clears up


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*

new or used? that is well under dealer cost i don't see how someone could sell them that cheap new


----------



## yvrnycracer (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_new or used? that is well under dealer cost i don't see how someone could sell them that cheap new

its true... aren't they in the neighborhood of ~122 each?!


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

brand new sealed in clear bags in the infamous vag box. They even came with the same cute lil caps that were on my s3 Injectors.
I'll post up pics later for the typical nonbeliever texers.
Meanwhile, look up rs4 high flow injector on eBay. The seller is located in FL. They have tons of VW/audi sh!t. I think they work for VAG. Anywho, they had another set when I purchased mine. They have a BIN for 399.99 and a BO option. I offered 250 and won.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*

caps? i have sold several sets including the ones that are in my car and non of the ever came with caps







post pics and the part number on the injector when you get a chance, if this is indeed true you my friend got a killer deal http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Sandman333 (Oct 28, 2002)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi* »_brand new sealed in clear bags in the infamous vag box. They even came with the same cute lil caps that were on my s3 Injectors.
I'll post up pics later for the typical nonbeliever texers.
Meanwhile, look up rs4 high flow injector on eBay. The seller is located in FL. They have tons of VW/audi sh!t. I think they work for VAG. Anywho, they had another set when I purchased mine. They have a BIN for 399.99 and a BO option. I offered 250 and won. 

Ebay results = 0 results found for
rs4 high flow injector


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_caps? i have sold several sets including the ones that are in my car and non of the ever came with caps







post pics and the part number on the injector when you get a chance, if this is indeed true you my friend got a killer deal http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I had no CAPS 
but i did stay at a holiday inn express.







Bob.G LOL


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

I saw these for sale about a week ago on ebay. Glad someone here picked them up...and at an amazing price, too. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: (Sandman333)*

sorry for the crappy pics. damn iphone.

















_Quote, originally posted by *Sandman333* »_
Ebay results = 0 results found for
rs4 high flow injector

looks like someone got the other set too.

check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...65511



_Modified by CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi at 5:06 PM 11-14-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*

you got a good deal, they lost out on money http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

thank you for the info.
&
thanks.
i couldnt say no!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

More technical tidbits to bring this thread back to life:
Hole size RS4 injector - .0234”
Hole size stock 2.0T - .0256"
Hole size S3 - .0272"
Granted hole size is not the only factor regarding flow, but it plays a big part with these injectors.
We're still open to testing any injectors people would like to send us.


----------



## bostonaudi1 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (bwzimmerman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwzimmerman* »_
yeah but isnt the software setup for a certain flow of the injectors.. or does the electronics monitor the amount of fuel sprayed? I am just assuming that the injector flow is programed into the software and the ECU has no idea what is accually being sprayed.. ie. not monitored.
So if you were to upgrade injectors but not software then the injectors would spray alot more fuel then the ECU thinks.. right?

The software is programmed to create a certain duty cycle based on the injector's rated flow rate. You can't change injectors willy nilly, if you replace with a different flow rate injector without a software compensation you WILL change the amount of fuel going into the engine. 
Not sure why there is concern about stock injectors maxing out with stock turbo. I'd be a little skeptical they would, but its easy enough to check, just monitor the duty cycle of the signal going to one of the injectors. If its getting above 90% with the boost level you're running you might want to consider it, but remember you're not going to be at that level often, and as long as your A/F stays good at max boost you should be fine. If you're doing sustained track duty with the car and the duty cycle stays way high then its probably worth considering.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Well i can add to this thread that i have probably been experiencing richness at idle with the S3 injectors.That though is something i haven't read anyone mention.
I have a theory that has to do with the injected fuel flow over my older AXX pistons (crown not dome shapped).Could it have something to do with the also the observed "richness" of the RS4 injectors ? (different spray pattern).Meaning, is it possible the S3 injectors are causing an over rich state due to the different air fuel mixture with the older pistons ??
Just grasping on straws here...


----------



## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Hole size RS4 injector - .0234”
Hole size stock 2.0T - .0256"
Hole size S3 - .0272"


So the S3 injectors has the biggest hole size ? I assume, that if the injector hole size is bigger it can also flow more than RS4 injectors ? What explains or makes, that RS4 injectors could give more fuel for example for BT-kits ? I dont understand, that how injectors spray pattern would make so much difference.. -iSot


_Modified by iSot at 1:58 PM 12-19-2008_


----------



## nick2.0Tgti (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: (iSot)*

so what is the verdict?
do s3 injectors flow better than rs4 at 130 bar?
are rs4 injectors better for BT than s3?
which injectors are most cost effective?
im sure its been covered, but will all of the aruging and finger pointing, id rater ask the question again.


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

Oem and meth are dyno proven for 330ish wheel hp. Working on 350 next time around.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

It would seem no one has "cracked the code" yet on RS4 injectors...??
If the sizes and numbers are what they are, what makes them "flow more" ??
Is that a fact or a myth ??


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

It's the angle of the spray. Less fuel is lost to the heat if the combustion chamber.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi* »_It's the angle of the spray. Less fuel is lost to the heat if the combustion chamber. 

Hmmm....
One thing i'm not getting is how fuel can be...lost ??
The O2 sensor measures the "outcome" of the combustion, and ANY fuel, lost or not would be measured as a rich mixture by the sensor.If the quantity of the injected fuel is LESS with the RS4 injectors (as the above measurements show) the O2 should register a leaner mixture, regardless of the spray pattern.What spray pattern SHOULD effect is the efficiency of the combustion, but that would also lead to lower energy production, which is THE POINT of the whole process.
So lets see what we have here...
S3 injectors spray OEM pattern with higher flow (more fuel ?)->efficient combustion (more energy)->O2 sensor registers normal mixture 
RS4 injectors spray in a non OEM manner but LESS FUEL ? ->less efficient combustion (less energy)
->O2 sensor measures a "rich" mixture
Right....so if i get this straight....In the first case the injectors are doing their job, and the ECU along with the engine are working properly...
and in the second case, the injectors are "fooling" the ECU/O2 sensor that the mixture is richer, by "not mixing the fuel properly", hence the... "higher flow" ?
Some how that doesn't seem right, and the engineers in here can prove me wrong....
If you have the specs for an injector (and we base our thoughts to the above posted flow/size numbers), then for a specific rail pressure you get the injected fuel.
Now....spray pattern or not, the thing that changes CAN'T be the fuel AMOUNT, since that is a fixed value (calculated from the above), but rather the MIXING of the air/fuel mixture, that (as it seems ) gives off a FALSE RICH reading at the O2 sensor, while in the meantime LOSING power from improper combustion.
Wow....exciting stuff.....eh ??


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_

Now....spray pattern or not, the thing that changes CAN'T be the fuel AMOUNT, since that is a fixed value (calculated from the above), but rather the MIXING of the air/fuel mixture, that (as it seems ) gives off a FALSE RICH reading at the O2 sensor, * while in the meantime LOSING power from improper combustion.*
Wow....exciting stuff.....eh ??








 
Take the time to UNDERSTAND how different types of combustion works not just read about it and or listen to tuners that don't understand it ,that are trying to apply MFI formula's to D.I. technology its night and day .
In short the reason why injector that MEASURES smaller flow but has a denser/ charge spray can out perform injector that MEASURES more but has a less dense / wider charge is the amount of the fuel droplets left after the cooling process to make power. 
With a denser charge like the RS4 injector the fuel droplets don't fall off and there more fuel=energy left to make more power the exact opposite happens with lets say S-3/stock injector spray pattern which has a less dense spray and its fuel droplets fall off quickly leaving less fuel for energy= less power .







Bob.G
p.s. when you say MORE efficient that doesn't = MORE power, but it may= MORE MPG , but where here for more power LOL its all a trade off.


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*

What he said. LOL. 

_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Take the time to UNDERSTAND how different types of combustion works not just read about it and or listen to tuners that don't understand it ,that are trying to apply MFI formula's to D.I. technology its night and day .
In short the reason why injector that MEASURES smaller flow but has a denser/ charge spray can out perform injector that MEASURES more but has a less dense / wider charge is the amount of the fuel droplets left after the cooling process to make power. 
With a denser charge like the RS4 injector the fuel droplets don't fall off and there more fuel=energy left to make more power the exact opposite happens with lets say S-3/stock injector spray pattern which has a less dense spray and its fuel droplets fall off quickly leaving less fuel for energy= less power .







Bob.G
p.s. when you say MORE efficient that doesn't = MORE power, but it may= MORE MPG , but where here for more power LOL its all a trade off.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Take the time to UNDERSTAND how different types of combustion works not just read about it and or listen to tuners that don't understand it ,that are trying to apply MFI formula's to D.I. technology its night and day .
In short the reason why injector that MEASURES smaller flow but has a denser/ charge spray can out perform injector that MEASURES more but has a less dense / wider charge is the amount of the fuel droplets left after the cooling process to make power. 
With a denser charge like the RS4 injector the fuel droplets don't fall off and there more fuel=energy left to make more power the exact opposite happens with lets say S-3/stock injector spray pattern which has a less dense spray and its fuel droplets fall off quickly leaving less fuel for energy= less power .







Bob.G
p.s. when you say MORE efficient that doesn't = MORE power, but it may= MORE MPG , but where here for more power LOL its all a trade off.



I'm sorry but i simply cannot accept that as an explanation of what happens.
You are trying to make me believe we, in a most lucky, almost magical way, have found the way to surpass the manufacturers specified combustion process, and all just by using some random injectors with a random spray pattern, that JUST HAPPENED to fit the head!!!
MPG yes, its an important factor, but i don't think its what the manufacturer has/had in mind when you are going full throttle....Thats when injector flow is most important.We are not talking about cruising speeds here.
So, as i said, we just lucked out, and threw all of Audi's engine development and testing out the window.We found the way to make fuel out of thin air.Surely dropping a bucket full of....LESS fuel (if that is what the RS4 spray "looks like", must be better than fine spraying MORE of it, in to a closed space.Now why didn't Audi think of that??Why use BIGGER injectors with its newer ,more powerful models, when they could just use the older ones, and just bore them out a bit, of even change the spray pattern ??
Btw...i seem to remember the S3 injectors have two holes as opposed to one in the Gti ones ?
Bet that makes for some difference in spray pattern huh.....










_Modified by GolfRS at 7:12 AM 1-20-2009_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
I'm sorry but i simply cannot accept that as an explanation of what happens.
You are trying to make me believe we, 

I work with combustion everyday so I speak from years of experience and power levels achieved from Innovated /open minded people here on the board and there dyno results have confirmed it. 
They are making power level into the 400-430 whp @130 bar( rising rate ) with SAFE A/F without meth on the RS-4 injectors.
I wont waste anymore of my time with closed minded person like yourself , good luck


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
I'm sorry but i simply cannot accept that as an explanation of what happens.
You are trying to make me believe we, in a most lucky, almost magical way, have found the way to surpass the manufacturers specified combustion process, and all just by using some random injectors with a random spray pattern, that JUST HAPPENED to fit the head!!!
MPG yes, its an important factor, but i don't think its what the manufacturer has/had in mind when you are going full throttle....Thats when injector flow is most important.We are not talking about cruising speeds here.
So, as i said, we just lucked out, and threw all of Audi's engine development and testing out the window.We found the way to make fuel out of thin air.Surely dropping a bucket full of....LESS fuel (if that is what the RS4 spray "looks like", must be better than fine spraying MORE of it, in to a closed space.Now why didn't Audi think of that??Why use BIGGER injectors with its newer ,more powerful models, when they could just use the older ones, and just bore them out a bit, of even change the spray pattern ??
Btw...i seem to remember the S3 injectors have two holes as opposed to one in the Gti ones ?
Bet that makes for some difference in spray pattern huh.....









_Modified by GolfRS at 7:12 AM 1-20-2009_

are you anywhere near a roof top?
please jump off of it ASAP.
ill post up pics later tonight of both the s3 tips and rs4s.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi* »_
are you anywhere near a roof top?
please jump off of it ASAP.
ill post up pics later tonight of both the s3 tips and rs4s.


Let me help you and post my S3 ones for your comfort...
If you are referring to the "second hole" ,I'm guessing its just there for show ??
If not, then what is it for ??
Cause it sure wasn't there when i removed my stock ones...



















_Modified by GolfRS at 2:06 PM 1-20-2009_


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## plutoR (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Guys , 
S3 Injectors @ 1217 CC/MIN - Is this per injector ?? or all 4 - either way it doesnt sound right.. sorry , I am a newbie...
So , in 60 minutes @ 85 % duty cycle I would empty my fuel tank on my S3 ??


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (plutoR)*

that is per injector, the reason it is so high is because it can not spray as long as a normal manifold style injector


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## plutoR (Aug 24, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Hey JC , 
Did you get my IM ??


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