# Big problems



## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

Ok so I had my 1.8l 8v head rebuilt with bigger valves and port matched. I reinstalled the head and now the car will not start up. Cam gear, crank shaft pulley and rotor are all lined up on timing marks. I have fuel and spark. What could my problem be?


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: Big problems (veedub1991)*

Did ya leave any rags in the intake ports?







Sorry just playin around. Are you getting any signs of ignition, like pops and bangs? Still runing stock ecu?


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: Big problems (blowndub)*

Ya no rags, I wish it was that simple. But ya there is no pops or bangs, every once in a while I get one pop when I first turn it over. But nothing after that. I have a tt ecu, but its been in for a year working fine.


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## MK2SnowPilot (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: Big problems (veedub1991)*

Double check all the vacuum lines and make sure the ISV is working properly. When I refreshed my 8v digi head the ISV died while it was off the engine and once I replaced it everything was good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: Big problems (veedub1991)*

Are the spark plug wires on the proper cyclinders?


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: Big problems (blowndub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blowndub* »_Are the spark plug wires on the proper cyclinders?

Yes i've check it a few times. Its 
...1
.2 .3
...4


_Quote, originally posted by *MK2SnowPilot* »_Double check all the vacuum lines and make sure the ISV is working properly. When I refreshed my 8v digi head the ISV died while it was off the engine and once I replaced it everything was good 

Does someone have a pic of the vacuum lines on the frp? Im sure I put them back right but maybe not. Also would a dead isv make it not fire at all?


_Modified by veedub1991 at 10:21 AM 4-2-2007_


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: Big problems (veedub1991)*

Yeah 
_Quote, originally posted by *veedub1991* »_
Yes i've check it a few times. Its 
...1
.2 .3
...4



Yeah i just ment is one going to one and 2 going to 2 and so on.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: Big problems (blowndub)*

Ya I check that a few times. I also took my valve cover off and put everything to top dead center and when cylinder 1 was up the valves were closed. So im pretty sure my timing is close enough to at least fire a little. Also the car was running fine before the head rebuild which was the only thing modified.


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: Big problems (veedub1991)*

Does it pop once everytime you try and start it? When one is up and valves are closed where is the distributor fireing at? pull that cover and see if thats in a vacinity it should be. If you have spark and fuel something in the fireing sequence is off.


_Modified by blowndub at 1:38 PM 4-2-2007_


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: Big problems (blowndub)*

It doesnt do it every time, I would say about half. But its only after it sits for a while. The rotor is pointed at #1. So it should be good. I tested compression by pulling a plug and putting my finger on it. But it does not push my finger off it.


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## MortarArmy (Apr 1, 2006)

had the same problem after replacing the head on my 16v. 
Try jump starting it. Mine was cranking 100% fine, but wouldnt start, wrested with this for a few hours, changed nothing, then jump started it and it started fine.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (MortarArmy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MortarArmy* »_had the same problem after replacing the head on my 16v. 
Try jump starting it. Mine was cranking 100% fine, but wouldnt start, wrested with this for a few hours, changed nothing, then jump started it and it started fine.

Ya i already tried that. Jumped it with a running mk3 vr6 and it still didnt want to start. Its like is not combusting at all. It just turns over with ease. IS this what yours is doing?

Also is it possible to have the rotor 360 degrees out?


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## MortarArmy (Apr 1, 2006)

thats exaclty what mine did. had good spark, fuel seemed to be going, timing was right. I doubt you can have the rotor on backwards, but i guess if you really messed up you could put the cap on upside down.
and thats assuming you mean have the rotor 180deg out....








Only thing i did besides the jump start was take the air intake apart and clean the fuel bowl, then tighten down the clamps on the hoses again. 
Spray some starting fluid into the intake, see if that wakes it up any. 

_Modified by MortarArmy at 5:18 AM 4-3-2007_


_Modified by MortarArmy at 5:20 AM 4-3-2007_


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (MortarArmy)*

Well, you know better then us what your car sounds like when your trying to start it so if it sounds like it's turning over with no spark plugs in it you got issues with timing.. Go down to autozone and by a compression checker they're not to expensive. Man this is starting to get deep.mmmmm Are you sure your getting fuel or enough fuel? Spray some starting fluid in there and if it startys back firing out of the throttle body your 180 out most likely.


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## onewiper (Aug 29, 2002)

When your #1 piston is at tdc (Use a long screwdriver to confirm this) your cam lobes on your cam shaft should be at 10 and 2 o'clock positions at #1. If you don't feel any compression with your finger over the spark plug hole your valves are still open. Your cam sprocket has 2 marks, one on the outside and one on the inside, you need to go by the inside mark.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (blowndub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blowndub* »_Well, you know better then us what your car sounds like when your trying to start it so if it sounds like it's turning over with no spark plugs in it you got issues with timing.. Are you sure your getting fuel or enough fuel? Spray some starting fluid in there and if it startys back firing out of the throttle body your 180 out most likely.

Well it does sound like its turning over with no spark, but has spark and enough fuel. I did try spraying starting fluid in it but that did do anything. I got a couple of little pops but nothing big. Im not a 180 out cause at tdc its pointing to the #1 wire. I was told that the intermedit shaft could be 360 degrees out, does that sound possible?

_Quote, originally posted by *onewiper* »_When your #1 piston is at tdc (Use a long screwdriver to confirm this) your cam lobes on your cam shaft should be at 10 and 2 o'clock positions at #1. If you don't feel any compression with your finger over the spark plug hole your valves are still open. Your cam sprocket has 2 marks, one on the outside and one on the inside, you need to go by the inside mark.

I check that too. I put it at tdc looked through the spark plug hole and saw the piston up. and Im not sure what the lobes were at but they were not pushing on the lifters both valves were closed. Also I have a tt adj cam gear, and im using the right mark on that (the ot mark).


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

ooops


_Modified by blowndub at 12:03 PM 4-3-2007_


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Not turning over with no spark i ment turning over with no compression like there where no plugs in the cylinder. If it's turning over faster then normal like there was no compression then the valves are opening to soon. and your adj sprocket is out or your going off the wrong mark, but it doesn't sound like you are so i'm pretty much stumped and i'm gona sit back and watch k. mmmmm







ok guys spray some more startin fluid in der. we get er runnin one way or the odder.


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## MK2SnowPilot (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

I have yet to see the OT mark line up properly.
The correct mark to use is the dimple on the inside (facing the engine) of the cam sprocket. This mark needs to be lined up to the top of the cylinder head (where it meets the valve cover)


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (MK2SnowPilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK2SnowPilot* »_I have yet to see the OT mark line up properly.
The correct mark to use is the dimple on the inside (facing the engine) of the cam sprocket. This mark needs to be lined up to the top of the cylinder head (where it meets the valve cover)

Ya the ot mark is 1/2 of a tooth off. I think this is because I had the head shaved .030. Cause before the head was shaved it was dead on. Is this demple also on the tt adj cam gear.
However I have tried moving the cam gear one tooth in either direction. And I would think that even if it was a little off I would get some kind of combustion.


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Yeah if was only a tooth off you would still get sumtin so sumtin is way off. (Takes a gulp of beer)







mmmmm (buuuurp)


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (blowndub)*

O yeah about the intermidiate shaft. Never heard of haveing to have that in any particular rotation so don't worry about that. If your geting the electrode at #1 while #1 piston is tdc then your ok. R u sure both valves are closed when u had the valve cover off and #1cyl was at tdc.
Are u haveing someone rock the crack while you have a screwdriver in the cyl and markin the screwdriver as it goes up and down to find that one point where it comes up the highest? 
Sorry but ya jus have to be sure ya know .http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (blowndub)*

Ya both the lobes were facing to the side of the engine and the lifters were not pressed down at all. I did not have a screw driver in the cylinder but I did have the plug out with a light there and it was pretty much at the top. And when it was at the top all my marks were lined up so I just assumed it was good.


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## jforte5650 (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

While you crank the engine, get a buddy to turn the distributor a little in each direction. That way you can make sure your ignition timing isn't way off. Don't overlook this, it's very common. Almost every engine swap I have done we've ended up resorting to this. If you don't wanna get a nasty little shock, wear some gloves, although it's kinda classic to do it drunk without the gloves!


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (jforte5650)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jforte5650* »_While you crank the engine, get a buddy to turn the distributor a little in each direction. That way you can make sure your ignition timing isn't way off. Don't overlook this, it's very common. Almost every engine swap I have done we've ended up resorting to this. If you don't wanna get a nasty little shock, wear some gloves, although it's kinda classic to do it drunk without the gloves!

lol ya my buddy got a little shock when we put the swap together. But ya that was one of the first things I tried. I turned the distrubitor as far each direction as I could, and nothing happend


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## onewiper (Aug 29, 2002)

If both the lobes of the cam are pointed to the side of the engine then your cam is out. One lobe should be to the front at 2 o'clock and the other lobe should be towards the back of the block at 10 o'clock.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (onewiper)*

It was somewhat close to that, I dont remember for sure, all I know is that the lifters were not being pushed down at all.


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## MK2SnowPilot (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Not at all? There wasn't a gap between the top of the lifter and the lobes was there?


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (MK2SnowPilot)*

I forget what swap you said you did and what ecu your are running, but maybe the firing order is different on one or the other. I had this prob when i was hooking up my MSD and 2 coils where suppose to be wired 2gehter, but i had the wrong 2 wired up and the thing sounded weird when it was turning over and i was getting some pops and bangs out the exhaust and out the intake mani.


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (blowndub)*

o my bad i forgot you allready had this thing running and just pulled the head to get some work done and put it back on and now all the probs.







it's early man


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## standleys (Nov 2, 2000)

*Re: Big problems (veedub1991)*

Did you check rotor against the flywheel ignition mark? I mean the one 12mm to left or counterclockwise from TDC mark. rotate flywheel w/ignition mark below bellhousing pointer. Rotate dstributor housing until notch on top edge of distributor housing lines up on center notch of rotor. Some engines are very touchy about ignition timing. Mine won't start if distrbutor is more than 5-10 degrees off. There is a dimple on the intermediate shaft pulley you're supposed to line up with the crank pulley. Makes setting NO.1 on distributor much easier. you could be 180 off on NO.1 too if theres no compression. If it doesn't start after ths exercise then valve timing is off.
86 Golf diesel, 87 Golf CIS, 90 Jetta 8V Digi2, and now a91 GTI 8V PITA (see my lifter noise/valve timing post to understand why).


_Modified by standleys at 8:03 AM 4-4-2007_


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (MK2SnowPilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK2SnowPilot* »_Not at all? There wasn't a gap between the top of the lifter and the lobes was there?

No there touching, but the smallest part of the lobe is making contact. So the lifter is not pushing the valve down.


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## The Quinner (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (veedub1991)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedub1991* »_
No there touching, but the smallest part of the lobe is making contact. So the lifter is not pushing the valve down.

Ah HA...the smallest part of the lobe is making contact...but, is there valve clearance? You got new valves...which presumedly involved a valve seat grind...new valves and/or seat machining can change the distance from the tip of the valve to the camshaft lobe (which affects more than just the valve clearance, but that's another thread).
Lots of people have mentioned fuel and spark being the ingredients...one additional bit is needed for internal combustion engines to work and that's compression.
Ensure that your valves are CLOSED...not just off the lifting lobe of the cam.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (The Quinner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Quinner* »_Ah HA...the smallest part of the lobe is making contact...but, is there valve clearance? You got new valves...which presumedly involved a valve seat grind...new valves and/or seat machining can change the distance from the tip of the valve to the camshaft lobe (which affects more than just the valve clearance, but that's another thread).
Lots of people have mentioned fuel and spark being the ingredients...one additional bit is needed for internal combustion engines to work and that's compression.
Ensure that your valves are CLOSED...not just off the lifting lobe of the cam.


Well before I put the head back on the valves looked closed. I dont know if they were 100% seated but you could not tell that they were open. So how can I check / fix this if possible


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## The Quinner (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (veedub1991)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedub1991* »_

Well before I put the head back on the valves looked closed. I dont know if they were 100% seated but you could not tell that they were open. So how can I check / fix this if possible

Sorry...I was in pretty much of a hurry when I typed the last post. My point should have been to not assume...be SURE that they are closed. An easy way to ensure that is to do a leakdown test or compression test.
If you have fuel and spark...compression and timing are the remaining issues. First...ensure compression. THEN...you'll have the required "ingredients." From there, it will be timing to make them happen correctly.
So...the next step in trouble shooting is to ensure good compression.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (The Quinner)*

would taking the cam out and then turning the engine over with my finger on the spark plug hole test that?


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

No don't take the cam out because we want this to mimic real time conditions when your cranking the motor over. We no the pistons and rings are good and it had compression before you pulled the head. Now the head is back on and won't start.
Refresh my memory here. Is this a new cam and sproket you have on the head? Or has it ran before with this cam and sproket?


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (blowndub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blowndub* »_No don't take the cam out because we want this to mimic real time conditions when your cranking the motor over. We no the pistons and rings are good and it had compression before you pulled the head. Now the head is back on and won't start.
Refresh my memory here. Is this a new cam and sproket you have on the head? Or has it ran before with this cam and sproket?

Its the same cam and sproket from before, and it ran fine. If I took that cam out wouldnt that make the valve close and force it to have compression when I put my finger over the whole.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Oh and here is a full parts list on the head. Which is sitting on a 2.0 aba block, with 268 cam that was used before rebuild.
tt oversized valves (41 intake, 34 exhaust), 7mm stem necked down to 6.5
tt 7mm guides tappered (hi flow)
tt hd springs (dual)
tt new seals
tt tripple grove retainers
shaved .030"
With everything port matched.
Not sure if that will help, but it cant hert to know.


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Yeah i guess u could do that just to know for sure you even have compression with the valves closed. Or you can go to autozone and buy a comp checker for cheap. That will tell you if you have compression probs.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (blowndub)*

True I'll most likely do a compression check this weekend. Im really hoping the heads not messed up, cause thats gonna make for a lot of hassle.


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## standleys (Nov 2, 2000)

*Re: (The Quinner)*

Hey buddy-
Read my post tired lifters or valve timing (two down from your post on the 8v forum). If you follow the timing procedure I wrote there, AND you know you have fuel and spark it will start with little or no cranking. This stuff is right out of the bentley manual. 
Per your question on the IM- once you set the timing between the cam, intermediate, and crank pulleys. SLIGHTLY rotate the flywheel clockwise to the next mark to the left you see in the bellhousing window. This is the is the ignition mark the factory uses to dry-time the engine. At that time you insert the distributor and line it up with the notch on the top edge of the housing directly below the center notch on the rotor. Lock it down and the car will start. If your battery is tired the ECU will not work right so no fuel management. Make sure its fully charged before you crank er. good luck and let us know how it goes. I'm working on noisy lifters today and need some luck myself. rgds 

_Modified by standleys at 4:57 AM 4-5-2007_


_Modified by standleys at 10:46 AM 4-5-2007_


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (standleys)*

Ya im gonna give that a try tomorrow. I hope thats the problem. I'll keep you guys posted on whats going on. If anyone else has some ideas let me know cause I only have tomorrow and saturday to work on this. So im gonna make a list of things to do.
I may post a quick question up tomorrow or saturday so maybe you guys will check that.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Ok well I just pulled everything off. I lined the cam gear with the mark on the back side of the pulley. Then lined up the crank shaft and look at the mark on the flywheel and it was lined up with the circle. However I dont have the other mark that I was told is supposed to be 6 BTDC. And if I did is it possible to rotate the flywheel with out moving the crank? Then I checked the rotor and lined it with mark on the distributor. Tightened everything down and double check, it was all still good. Battery read 14.6 volts. Then tried starting and nothing happened.
Any ideas.

I have yet to do a compression test but that we'll be tomorrow. I have tell sunday to get this running, before I have to leave. And my other vehicle just broke down so I need some major help. 
Thanks


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## copperlite (Jan 22, 2006)

everyone is going to be shooting blanks before you get a compression check. IMO thats a very likely cause.
You could try taking out the spark plugs and plugging the hole with your finger, but obviously it'll be hard to tell if it has GOOD compression.
Compression gauges are kinda pricey, they may have it avaliable to rent for free from autozone.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (copperlite)*

Ya Im gonna borrow one for today from a friend but until then Im just gonna recheck timing I guess.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (copperlite)*

ok i took the cam out and tested the compression with my finger and it sucks it in and pushes it out. So I have compression when the valves are closed. Could they be to long and when the cam is in could they be open a little?
Im lost here I check timing many times and its all on. Could the ecu be bad? Im getting fuel and spark but could it still be messed up some how?


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## onewiper (Aug 29, 2002)

You should get yourself a set of feeler gauges and make sure you have the proper clearances on all the valves. It's standard procedure to check clearances when installing new valves.


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## OverSquare (Mar 26, 2007)

*Re: (The Quinner)*

yeah a head mill decreases distance of the travel of the valve to be at a certain position versus stock. no one here means to be annoying or anything. i still think your timing is way out. i did it on a rabbit tons of times until i took it to somone, and then got the face-reddening news that i was totally off.








but it ran.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (OverSquare)*

Anyone ever have a problem with tt valves being to long, and being open all the time? Im thinking that the tt valves are staying open a little bit when my cam is in. When my cam is out they close but Im thinking that there open a little with the cam in. Is this possible?


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Ok well heres what my timing looked like. And is still turned over like it had o compression.


































_Modified by veedub1991 at 12:00 AM 4-9-2007_


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

I made some calls and the only thing I can come up with now is that my valves might be to long. Cause when the seats got reground it would have been higher up, only problem is that the valves are still the same length. So the lifter would push the valve the same distance down. So I was told that the stem needed to get grinded down. Does this sound right? Is there anyway to fix this with out taking the head off again, cause I dont feel like getting a new head gasket and bolts.


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## The Quinner (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Yes...that is what I was saying above. 
When you install new valves, machine old valves, machine the old seats, or install new seats...you are potentially changing where the end of the valve will be. That is, the end of the valve might be closer to or farther away from the camshaft.
With the changes you made, "it ran before" is mostly meaningless. Do yourself a huge favor and just do a leakdown test with the camshaft in place and the piston at TDC on the firing stroke for each test. You will very quickly figure out whether you have leaking valves, or not.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (The Quinner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Quinner* »_Yes...that is what I was saying above. 
When you install new valves, machine old valves, machine the old seats, or install new seats...you are potentially changing where the end of the valve will be. That is, the end of the valve might be closer to or farther away from the camshaft.

Could it be off enough to make it not run. Cause I talked to techtonics and they said unless the machine shop took a lot off of the seats the lifters should be able to adjust that much. I see your from portland, do you know davidsons in mcminnville, glen there is the guy that did the work. And when the head was off the valves looked closed (not that, that means anything).
And if the valve is being pushed down to far, What would be the best/easiest/ cheapest way to fix that?


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## The Quinner (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

I used to work in a BMW bike shop in Dundee...a Glen from McMinnville did most of our head work. If it's the same guy, he did good work.
Take a deep breath and two steps back for just a second...
You need to do some diagnostics. When you're frustrated, the shotgun approach to auto repair is just a ticket to more frustration...
The ingredients for an internal combustion engine are: fuel/air, ignition, and a combustion friendly environment (i.e., compression). If all of those are _KNOWN_ to be present, then it's simply a matter of them each happening at the right moment (timing)...
You've double and triple checked your timing...let's backtrack to see which of the ingredients are missing. Do you have good spark? Are you getting fuel (new filter, etc.)...AND, do you have good compression? Don't worry about a fix until you know the answer to that last question. IF you find that you don't have compression, we can help you figure it out by checking a few other things.
I agree that a hydraulic lifter should be able to compensate for a little machining, but should and does are sometimes two different beasts. You've changed other things in the past...the cummulative effect of ALL your changes might make it such that the lifters can no longer compensate. I'm not pinpointing your problem here...only a few diagnostic tests will tell you that...I'm simply suggesting that the scenario has possibilities that make assumptions meaningless.
Where in the PDX area are you? I have a leakdown tester if you want to borrow it...I'm in NE PDX.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (The Quinner)*

Ya its the same glen, at least im pretty sure. And thats why i didnt think it would a problem with his work.
As far as spark im getting a nice blue spark, and Im getting fuel cause if I crank it over to long i get gas that builds up in the cylinder. And i know that when I put my finger over the spark plug hole i dont have really good compression. 
Im from the salem area, but the problem is im in school down south. SO I can only come back on friday and work on it through sunday. My uncle has a 20lb tester, its a cheap one but will that work?


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## The Quinner (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (veedub1991)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedub1991* »_Ya its the same glen, at least im pretty sure. And thats why i didnt think it would a problem with his work.

Don't think about it that way...there is nobody or no reason to blame, yet. Think about it as an engine that has had many changes and the combination must be checked to ensure everything works together. Engine building/tuning is _mostly_ about the details...and, much less about the components than most realize. I.e., the best parts will not work together if the person assembling them does not pay attention to the process.
IOW, Glen may have done a great valve job...but, it doesn't mean that the whole package is compatible as-is. The issues you are running into are very much the standard when it comes to tuning and modifying an engine. The process must be methodical and complete...the goal is to, in some order, turn the unknowns into knowns. The more compllete your information, the easier it is to pinpoint problem areas. You MUST take that step back...stop stabbing in the dark...and, be methodical. If you're too tired and frustrated by the project, try bringing in an extra/fresh set of eyes.
What is a 20lb tester? I suggest you try to find/borrow a leak down tester. It is a tool...usually with two gauges (sometimes just one)...that is 'plugged into' the spark plug hole while the piston is at TDC on the firing stroke (valves closed)...pressurized by a compressor...and, the tool tells you how well the cylinder is sealing. In addition to the qualitative number it gives, the leak down tester will also show you where the leak is (if any) by the sound of air escaping...if it's escaping from the exhaust, your exhaust valve is not sealing...if through the intake, the intake valve isn't sealing...if through the dipstick, the rings aren't sealing...etc. You will learn a LOT in a little bit of time...even if it's that we are barking up the wrong tree. Either way, you will be turing an unknown into a known and we can move on in the troubleshooting process.


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: (The Quinner)*

Yeah man get that thing compression checked!! You can probably rent one from your local auotzone for free and we can get this thing diagnosed. If you can rent a leak down tester from autozone get that cause that will tell us everything we need to know right there and you can get the stuff you need and get this thing running.


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## standleys (Nov 2, 2000)

Hey Veedub-
I can imagine you're realy frustrated. Been there. Checked out your timing mark pics. great shots. 
You said- turns over like no compression. That happens when spark is retarded too. If it fires after TDC the combustion takes some of the load off of the starter and allows it to turn faster sounding like you have the plugs out and no compression. 
Also- that other mark on the flywheel has to be there unless its a replacement flywheel in which case the mark has to be established when you replace it. LOOKING AT IT FROM THE ANGLE YOU TOOK THE PIC FROM, ROTATING THE FLYWHEEL CLOCKWISE; You'll know your on the right marks when you see a big rib sticking up from the flywheel, then the zero mark, then the timing mark (a deep groove on all my cars), then another big rib after the timing mark. If you see the second rib you've gone too far. Back up and try again. Once you set the belt timing using the zero mark, rotate the flywheel to that point 12mm (about 1/2 an inch) counterclockwise to the left and THEN set the distributor housing and rotor to each other. IF I LINE UP THE ROTOR MARKS USING THE FLYWHEEL ZERO MARK ON MINE, IT WON'T START EITHER. Don't worry about the valve timing once you've fixed it to the crank and you know its right. Focus on the ignition.
The reason you don't hear me jumping on the compression band wagon is because TT is right, you have alot of pump up adjustment in the lifters (as I now know from my experience last week) and you'd have to grind through the seats to take up all the slack available there. How many miles are on the rings? Is the flywheel original or replacement? If replacement did you put it on? If you put it on, did you get the two roll pins in the right notches? If the flywheel is original or undisturbed from before the valve job, disregard and focus on TIMING< TIMING>TIMING!!!!!!! GOOD LUCK AND KEEP POSTING. RGDS


_Modified by standleys at 6:26 AM 4-12-2007_


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (standleys)*

standleys
Well as far as i know the flywheel is original. And i've check the flywheel for that other mark and there is nothing. The only mark is the one you see in the pic. Which is also where my ignition is set at. Is that mark there on the mk3 aba cars? Cause the block and tranny are from that.
As far as the rings there is 120k on them and they worked just fine before the head rebuild. And the only thing changed was the rebuilt head.
Im gonna do a compression test tomorrow, if its bad im gonna take it back to the shop on saturday. If its good then I guess I'll mess with the timing some more.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Ok well I just had a buddy at home do a compression check (not a leak down test). What he had was one that you put in the spark plug hole and crank the engine over and see what it builds up. Tested it and it came up with nothing. So I have no compression. Which I would think would have to be the valves because the pistons were good before I rebuilt the head.


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## standleys (Nov 2, 2000)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Well at least you know now. Do you have and adjustable cam pulley? I noticed in one of the pics a blue anodized face. Be sure thats not advanced or retarded and recheck with your valve cover off that the lobes on no1 cyl are pointing up a little to the back and to the front equally when the cam pulley mark is lined up with the edge of the valve cover flange. 
Once you get it buttoned back up you still have to advance your ignition to that 6 deg. mark (there or not) for it to start/run. Good luck. Rgds


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## The Quinner (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (veedub1991)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedub1991* »_Ok well I just had a buddy at home do a compression check (not a leak down test). What he had was one that you put in the spark plug hole and crank the engine over and see what it builds up. Tested it and it came up with nothing. So I have no compression. Which I would think would have to be the valves because the pistons were good before I rebuilt the head.

Good...now we have some information that is useful...
Did he check all of the cylinders when he came up with nothing? I assume so...one bad cylinder would probably still allow the engine to run...it sounds like you are dead across the board.
If his compression tester is the type with a hose that threads into the spark plug hole with a removeable gauge (as opposed to the type you just hold in place), you can use it as a pseudo leak down tester. Put the cylinder at TDC on the firing stroke, thread the hose into the spark plug hole, attach a compressor to the hose...and, SOWLY pressurize the cylinder (you just need low pressure air...a few psi is usually enough)...you can even use a "blow gun" attachment with your compressor with some sealing mechanism at the spark plug hole. As you pressurize the cylinder, listen at the tail pipe and at the airbox. The leaks should be obvious. Leaks at the tail pipe indicate an exhaust valve problem...leaks at the airbox are intake valve problems...
If you find leaks at _both_ the intake and exhaust valves, that would point to good valve timing, but some issue with the camshaft/lifters that is holding the valves open. Look at your lifters, springs, retainers, etc.
If you only hear noise from one or the other set of valves, the valve timing might be off...recheck all of your timing marks and your adjustable sprocket.
Let us know what you learn next...


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (standleys)*


_Quote, originally posted by *standleys* »_Well at least you know now. Do you have and adjustable cam pulley? I noticed in one of the pics a blue anodized face. Be sure thats not advanced or retarded and recheck with your valve cover off that the lobes on no1 cyl are pointing up a little to the back and to the front equally when the cam pulley mark is lined up with the edge of the valve cover flange. 
Once you get it buttoned back up you still have to advance your ignition to that 6 deg. mark (there or not) for it to start/run. Good luck. Rgds


Well the cam pulley is all good and the cam lobes are at 10 and 2. If i have no compression then it wouldnt matter if i was at the 6 deg mark or not right?


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## The Quinner (Dec 10, 2001)

*Re: (veedub1991)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedub1991* »_
Well the cam pulley is all good and the cam lobes are at 10 and 2. If i have no compression then it wouldnt matter if i was at the 6 deg mark or not right?

No...without effective compression, your ignition timing doesn't matter much. You must fix "A" before you worry about "B"...
Remember, first, gather the ingredients (fuel/air, ignition, compression)...THEN, worry about the timing of the events.


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## standleys (Nov 2, 2000)

*Re: (The Quinner)*

What Quinner said- fix 1 then 2. I was only ponting out that AFTER you dealt with the compression issue you needed to get the timing right too and that setting it to TDC was wrong. Rgds


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: (standleys)*

Ok well i just took off my head and not one valve is closed. Every single valve is open a little bit. Its at TDC right now and the #1 cylinder valves are both open a mm or so. The thing that i dont get is that if i push on the valve i can close it or at least get it close to closed. (also the cam is still in). Each valve has a little bit of play, is this cause the lifters are not pumped up? Do you think the problem is i need to grind down the valve stem?


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## standleys (Nov 2, 2000)

*Re: (veedub1991)*

Basically all the valves are in the process of either opening or closing. look at an open valve and flip the head over and look at the cam lob. It may not be at the top of its lift but it may be on the ramp going up or down. Concern yourself with each cylider in order as you rotate the cam pulley. Stop every 90 degrees from the start point beginning with the dimple lined up at the valve cover egde. The lobes should be in the same position as no1 cyl was at TDC; pointing out and up in opposite directions. Check in firing order 1-3-4-2. thats the only way you'll know if they're all staying open or not. I any case the head's gotta go back for rework if any of them aren't closing without cam contact. Maybe he knurled the guides and forgot to ream them afterwards. Hard to say from 2500 miles away. Leave the cam in when you take the head back. Rgds


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## vwfanforlife (Nov 22, 2006)

*Hydraulic lifters*

I had a similar problem with the lifters. I did the head and somehow a bit of dirt found it's way into my oil pump and fouled up the pressure relief valve. As a result, the pressure was way up and pumped the lifters to maximum height and killed my compression. Fix was a new oil pump and new lifters, cos they don't retract again once they are extended... Can't hurt to check...


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: Hydraulic lifters (vwfanforlife)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwfanforlife* »_I had a similar problem with the lifters. I did the head and somehow a bit of dirt found it's way into my oil pump and fouled up the pressure relief valve. As a result, the pressure was way up and pumped the lifters to maximum height and killed my compression. Fix was a new oil pump and new lifters, cos they don't retract again once they are extended... Can't hurt to check...









Dang that sucks, whats the chance that a piece of dirt would work its way up there. Anyways lifters will bleed down, you can either take them apart or put them in a press.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: Hydraulic lifters (veedub1991)*

UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok well I took the head in to the shop. We took it apart and measured the valve tip installed height. It was a little over the spec for it. So mark from davison grinded down the valves and got them within spec. How ever we found out that the lifters have .140" of lift and the valve stem was only off by .015-.02. So not the only problem 
Started looking at things and the the retainers look a weird (these were the same ones I used before the swap, also tt told me that they were fine to reuse).







Well dang thats weird cause I had 8mm stems before and now 7mm. (this was never thought about cause i asked if I needed new retainers when I was at tt and the guy said these would be fine.) Wait crap that could be why!!! 
Well yes when we looked close, the lifter was not pushing on the stem, but rather on the retainer which had about 2mm of space difference. This is what was causing the valves to stay open all the time.
So we took the lifters apart and bleed them down. Got lucky and found someone with some new 7mm retainers and put it back together. Took it home and put the car back together, with a few minor problems but nothing big. 
And walla the damn thing started right up. Tuned it up a little bit, watched my header get red hot and she was running nicely. I still gotta mess with the adj cam gear cause Its still off from the head shave.
Tested compression and got 217, 215, 211, 208

THANKS for all your help guys, I also wanna thank mark from davisons. You guys need head work he does a great job.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: Hydraulic lifters (veedub1991)*

Well I tuned in a bit late but that's awesome, goes to show you that a) being methodical is always the best way to troubleshoot and b) there's some good fellas on the 'Tex (or maybe just the 8v forum







)


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## blowndub (Mar 27, 2007)

*Re: Hydraulic lifters (Mr Black)*

Yeah man this was a great and very imformative thread. Gongrats on getting this car back online! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Bottoms up to ya.


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## veedub1991 (Mar 16, 2006)

*Re: Hydraulic lifters (blowndub)*

Here's some pics

The port job








Intake manifold








Valves


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