# Whom do you believe?



## Der schwarze Drache (Jul 8, 2003)

Some people seem to be taking issue w/. JDPower's survey results. I thought I'd put it to a vote.


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## Der schwarze Drache (Jul 8, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

If anyone out there knows of a "more reliable" resource for such info, mention it.


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## nonenthusiast (Jun 2, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

You can still like your VW without being blind to the truth that VW should improve reliability, which IS below average.
Your poll is skewed to make it look as if you either like your VW OR you believe Consumers Reports.


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## Jetta2.show (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (nonenthusiast)*

Who cares what these stupid publications say







....I LOVE my VW


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## Boogety Boogety (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

Great idea... but... like most polls, this one will be unavoidably skewed by the narrow universe being polled... VW owners. A more accurate poll would indicate the specific areas where owners are disappointed (electrical? body integrity? interior durability? engine problems? transmission problems... etc. etc. etc.), but that would make it as unwieldly as a Consumer Reports article and about as informative. I'm afraid we have to mostly rely on overall company reputation; and remember, for the most part, we throw logic out the window when we choose our cars... we buy with our hearts more than our heads, otherwise we would all drive Lexuses (Lexi?) or Toyotas for reliability, Hyundais and Kias for price, and Minis to keep up with the latest fads. But... everyone picks what's most pleasing to him/her, and "that's what makes horse races." So, to answer your question, I believe... I love my NBC...







and JDP can jump up and bite my ...assumptions.


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## garethusa (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (nonenthusiast)*

well i am a vw enthusiast, but i totally agree with nonenthusiast.
i love my jetta wagon.
but the company sucks the big donkey as much as bush has wrecked the usa.


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## Der schwarze Drache (Jul 8, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Boogety Boogety)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boogety Boogety* »_I'm afraid we have to mostly rely on overall company reputation; and remember, for the most part, we throw logic out the window when we choose our cars... we buy with our hearts more than our heads...

Here, here! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *Boogety Boogety* »_Great idea... but... like most polls, this one will be unavoidably skewed by the narrow universe being polled... VW owners.

But it was my intention to poll VW owners...








Anyhow, I always heard from people "in the know" that Volkswagen had a good reputation for a certain quality, and lately, a very innovative style. They remind me of Apple Computer a bit, in an odd way.


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## Der schwarze Drache (Jul 8, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (garethusa)*

























Hrmmm.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (garethusa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *garethusa* »_well i am a vw enthusiast, but i totally agree with nonenthusiast.
i love my jetta wagon.
but the company sucks the big donkey as much as bush has wrecked the usa.

Thanks for proving my point...


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## merlin (Feb 20, 2001)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Der schwarze Drache* »_
Anyhow, I always heard from people "in the know" that Volkswagen had a good reputation for a certain quality, and lately, a very innovative style. They remind me of Apple Computer a bit, in an odd way.

I have the same feeling you do regarding VW and Apple being similar.
Re: the JDP rankings -- it is good, hard data that VW should take into account. The problem is when you rank the manfacturers. To me, it is apples and oranges. If a VW owner says to JDP that he or she has had the front seat go "clunk" occasionally duing the first year, that is counted as a problem. If a Buick owner says that their transmission dropped out, that is counted as a problem.
Oh, well.


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## rgGolf4 (Oct 22, 2001)

Do you think VW doesn't have transmissions failing? If there are any inaccuracies in the survey, they affect all the manufacturers. These surveys are asked to the respective car owners...not enthusiasts, not experts. The results are that of the opinions of regular people who experience problems with their cars.
Also, do you believe that VW should be ranked with Honda or even Nissan? When Lexus is ranked #1 again and again, no complains. But if VW is at the bottom...everyone calls the survey bullshiat. I just don't understand. The survey seems to support what many people outside the realm of the Vortex believe...Japanese cars are reliable, European cars are not. Its really quite simple. 
I must add though that there are good VWs being made. They are not all problems, but the numbers don't lie.
The only good thing about blind faith is that you don't have to open up your eyes.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: (rgGolf4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rgGolf4* »_Do you think VW doesn't have transmissions failing? If there are any inaccuracies in the survey, they affect all the manufacturers. These surveys are asked to the respective car owners...not enthusiasts, not experts. The results are that of the opinions of regular people who experience problems with their cars.
Also, do you believe that VW should be ranked with Honda or even Nissan? When Lexus is ranked #1 again and again, no complains. But if VW is at the bottom...everyone calls the survey bullshiat. I just don't understand. The survey seems to support what many people outside the realm of the Vortex believe...Japanese cars are reliable, European cars are not. Its really quite simple. 
I must add though that there are good VWs being made. They are not all problems, but the numbers don't lie.
The only good thing about blind faith is that you don't have to open up your eyes.

It's not a matter of focusing on VW....the whole survey is baloni...I've driven so many rental cars for travel that I've lost count. Mostly American products such as Ford, Dodge, etc....either the owners of these cars are idiots for thinking their cars are good quality or the survey that ranks them is a complete farce.


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## merlin (Feb 20, 2001)

*Re: (rgGolf4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rgGolf4* »_Do you think VW doesn't have transmissions failing? If there are any inaccuracies in the survey, they affect all the manufacturers. These surveys are asked to the respective car owners...not enthusiasts, not experts. The results are that of the opinions of regular people who experience problems with their cars.

I know that it's a difficult concept to get your head around if you aren't trying to understand. JDP's poll is one way to objectively describe the "quality" of a car. Among the things that it can't account for is the built-in bias of the owners who are polled.
On average, a VW owner wants different things out of their car when compared to a Buick Regal owner or a Ford Explorer owner. Yet, all three owners are asked the same questions -- e.g., "Do you have wind noise?" I assert that your stereotypical Buick owner is going to be less critical of his or her vehicle than a stereotypical VW owner. I think you are wrong to say that "enthusiasts" weren't polled by JDP. Enthusiasts as a group are over-represented in the VW owner group. If it is a random polling, there will be more VW enthusiasts who are polled than Buick enthusiasts. Do you disagree? Do you KNOW any Buick Regal enthusiasts?


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## a1only (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

Window regulators, coils, rear brake pad wear. Back ordered parts. VW better shape up.


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## rgGolf4 (Oct 22, 2001)

*Re: (merlin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *merlin* »_
I know that it's a difficult concept to get your head around if you aren't trying to understand. JDP's poll is one way to objectively describe the "quality" of a car. Among the things that it can't account for is the built-in bias of the owners who are polled.
On average, a VW owner wants different things out of their car when compared to a Buick Regal owner or a Ford Explorer owner. Yet, all three owners are asked the same questions -- e.g., "Do you have wind noise?" I assert that your stereotypical Buick owner is going to be less critical of his or her vehicle than a stereotypical VW owner. I think you are wrong to say that "enthusiasts" weren't polled by JDP. Enthusiasts as a group are over-represented in the VW owner group. If it is a random polling, there will be more VW enthusiasts who are polled than Buick enthusiasts. Do you disagree? Do you KNOW any Buick Regal enthusiasts?


I see more non-VW enthusiasts on the road than enthusiasts. How many cars did VW sell in 2000? They polled a small percentage, so the odds are that most responses were from non-enthusiasts. Even so, would you say with a straight face that a 2000 Gti is "reliable" in an overall sense. The only reason you think VW enthusiasts were polled is that the tiny world of Vortex makes reality skewed. Regardless, the same would hold true for Honda and most other cars. I would venture a guess and say there are more Ford enthusiasts than VW. Ford finished higher than VW. I don't see your point. 
And I'm sure there are Buick Regal "enthusiasts" out there. They may not mod their car, but they like it just the same as you and your VW. 
What I got from the actual article is that things like brake wear, suspension, engine, and premature wear of interior componets made this up. I'm sure they didn't ask about wind noise, come on. Asking about mechanical/wear, rather than styling is what JDP is going after. 
Oh yeah, I notice that a lot of VW have one headlight out, is this some kind of conspiracy against VW from JDP?
And whats the answer when they ask "do you have tire noise?" or "does your radio make noise?". I'm sure they ask about brakes, engine, suspension...tangible things that aren't subject to opinion.


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## merlin (Feb 20, 2001)

*Re: (rgGolf4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rgGolf4* »_The only reason you think VW enthusiasts were polled is that the tiny world of Vortex makes reality skewed. 

I'll concede that point to you. I'm sure I think that a larger portion of VW owners are enthusiasts than there really are. Nonetheless, (and without real evidence, I admit) I believe that there a higher percentage of VW owners are enthusiasts or more attuned to their car's performance than most other brands. Because of that belief, I feel that a higher percentage of the VW owners polled will be nitpicky than owners of other brands. If that is true, then the numbers JDP puts up are skewed against VW and other similar brands.
Compare Apple owners to PC owners. The bulk of people running Windows don't pick up on subtle problems. They won't complain about things that occur in their operating system when Apple owners will. An Apple owner may complain about fan noise or the functionality of dragging a docked disk to the trash can to eject it -- Windows PC owners don't question that type of thing. So when a Windows user complains about the blue screen of death, it would be treated the same as an Apple user's complaint about their Airport only reach 500 feet and not into their neighbor's bedroom.

_Quote, originally posted by *rgGolf4* »_
I see more non-VW enthusiasts on the road than enthusiasts. How many cars did VW sell in 2000? They polled a small percentage, so the odds are that most responses were from non-enthusiasts. Even so, would you say with a straight face that a 2000 Gti is "reliable" in an overall sense.

I don't know, really, because I don't own a GTI. I know VW owners of the past few years have had common problems with MAFs, rear brakes, coil packs, and window regulators. Those are 4 problems that suck, and that require repairs. But not everyone that owns a VW has had these problems. (I've only had one.) But I have had rattles.

_Quote, originally posted by *rgGolf4* »_
What I got from the actual article is that things like brake wear, suspension, engine, and premature wear of interior components made this up. I'm sure they didn't ask about wind noise, come on. Asking about mechanical/wear, rather than styling is what JDP is going after. 


They do ask about wind noise, and other "problems" that don't have to do with dependability:

_Quote, originally posted by *http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003050* »_
Some problems that occur much more frequently as vehicles age include excessive brake wear, air conditioning system issues, wind noise and the replacement of components not called for under the normal maintenance schedule.




_Quote, originally posted by *rgGolf4* »_
And I'm sure there are Buick Regal "enthusiasts" out there. They may not mod their car, but they like it just the same as you and your VW. 


Now you've lost me. Are you serious? I'm not being facetious. Are you really serious? There are Buick Regal "enthusiasts" who have their own Vortex and ----- and complain about every tiny thing about their car? LMAO

_Quote, originally posted by *rgGolf4* »_
And whats the answer when they ask "do you have tire noise?" or "does your radio make noise?". I'm sure they ask about brakes, engine, suspension...tangible things that aren't subject to opinion.

That's my point, kind of. Those things ARE subject to opinion. They require the owner's subjective assessment to give a supposedly objective ranking.


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## Der schwarze Drache (Jul 8, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (nonenthusiast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nonenthusiast* »_Your poll is skewed to make it look as if you either like your VW OR you believe Consumers Reports.









I don't see how you get that out of the choices I offered. It certainly wasn't my intention to skew anything, but I'm no professional pollster like the folks at JD Power.
Either A.) You don't give a damn about polls/surveys/publications, B.) Relating to the other thread, you put stock in JD Power's claims, C.) you put stock in Consumer Reports' findings which seem to contradict JDP, or D.) you got to this URL/poll by mistake, but decided to vote anyway....
Since you're critical of my polling method, I'm sure you've got a better idea of how to go about it. Always wanting to improve myself by the shared wisdom and intellect of others, I am wondering if you might offer your suggestion of a more balanced, scientific set of responses (albeit for this community of VW enthusiasts and anti-enthusiasts)? 
Perhaps with your help (and that of others), I may become a better practiced pollster.


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## Der schwarze Drache (Jul 8, 2003)

*Re: (merlin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *merlin* »_ Compare Apple owners to PC owners. The bulk of people running Windows don't pick up on subtle problems. They won't complain about things that occur in their operating system when Apple owners will. An Apple owner may complain about fan noise or the functionality of dragging a docked disk to the trash can to eject it -- Windows PC owners don't question that type of thing. So when a Windows user complains about the blue screen of death, it would be treated the same as an Apple user's complaint about their Airport only reach 500 feet and not into their neighbor's bedroom.

I work in the IT industry, and deal a lot with users, mostly of Windows computers. These people don't notice anything amiss when upon each login they recieve SEVEN error messages in a row! They just keep clicking "OK". 
DSDrache: "So, have you noticed any other problems with your workstation?"
WinUser: "No. It's working fine."
DSDrache: "But your workstation just locked up and you lost your document."
WinUser: "Oh. That happens all the time..."
Meanwhile, I have friends who are Apple users who insist that their iMACs have souls and will meet them in Heaven at the end.
*****
JDPGuy: "So, have you noticed any problems with your Pinto?"
FordOwner: "Nope. Drives fine."
<<<*B O O M*>>>
JDPGuy to JDPBoss: "So, like does that explosion count as one problem or more...?"


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## merlin (Feb 20, 2001)

*Re: (Der schwarze Drache)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Dude, you get a standing ovation! Your little screenplay articulated my points much better than I'll ever be able to with my babbling.


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (a1only)*


_Quote, originally posted by *a1only* »_Window regulators, coils, rear brake pad wear. Back ordered parts. VW better shape up.









Our '01 Passat never suffered any of these issues...BUT our '02 A4 1.8 was affected by the lousy coil packs. The reality is that it depends what model you own, but yeah, it's pretty well known all over the auto industry that VW has a long list of things to improve before if it hopes to be considered an equal competitor to Mercedes. 
As for Renault owned Nissan, prior to Renault's rescue a couple of years ago, Nissan was losing a billion dollars a month at one point. Believe me, VW is in far better shape than Nissan...and if you've been in one of Nissan's newer products, you'll see the interiors are decently nice, but still on the cheap side when compared to comparable models from VW as well as others cars in their perspective segments.
I did notice in the recent Consumer Reports that the Jetta did poorly and the Passat was recommended. Considering the issues that friends of mine who own late model Jettas are going through, VW really needs to come up to plate and make the improvements. VW's sales were greatly affected by the coil pack fiasco earlier this year and VW's slow reaction to rectify the situation tarnished VW's recent gain in US market share during the past decade.
As for the legitimacy of JD Powers survey, their results have been highly respected by the auto industry


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## Boogety Boogety (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Der schwarze Drache* »_
Here, here! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
But it was my intention to poll VW owners...








Anyhow, I always heard from people "in the know" that Volkswagen had a good reputation for a certain quality, and lately, a very innovative style. They remind me of Apple Computer a bit, in an odd way.









I agree, my friend, but the poll is skewed BECAUSE you are dealing with VW owners only in the VWVortex forum. The responses would perhaps not be as favorable if there was a mechanism for recording the satisfaction/dissatisfaction of present and previous owners as well, since those who have bailed from VW ownership may have an unfavorable view of our cars.
Also, polls can be skewed by how the question is asked. Instead of a yes-or-no question (easy to record), the best polls ask open ended questions ("why do you like this..."), which are harder to measure but ultimately more accurate. Or the poll may "push" the answer ("would you vote for the x-party candidate, or for his lying, wife-beating y-party rival?"). Or by the way the statement question is designed, leading you to a conclusion which may or may not be valid ("beer has food value, but food has no beer value. Will you drink more beer?")















I like your mention of PC/Apple users, since PC users are used to poor performance and have come to accept it as normal, whereas Apple people are acolytes of the platform and are rabid fans of anything Apple. Much like VW owners are devoted to their cars, regardless of model... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

While I agree with those who challenge the survey results (always good to question sources!), I do not like to see 'apologists'. While those of us on these forums are Volkswagen aficionados, on the aggregate, Volkswagen has done an exceedingly poor job with quality control and also with customer satisfaction when it comes to dealing with the Dealership Network in North America. 
I've stated it before - those who bought the notoriously 'buggy' 1998 New Beetles, the first runs of the New Jetta, the Coil Pack-Plagued 2002 1.8T and VR6 models, the MAF, O2, and speed sensor failures, the window regulator failures, the two mandatory safety recalls since 1999, etc., etc., etc., - those people who are 'long term', those people whose leases are coming due, whose cars should be paid off at this moment - these are the people answering the survery and looking to buy new cars. 
These are people - the agregate buyers - who are not visiting these forums, but dealing with the VW Dealership Service Departments and VoA on a constant basis, are the buyers who have 'had it' with Volkswagen.
These are the people who bought into the VoA marketing hype of "German Engineering", that a classy, high quality interior makes the car feel more subtantial, value-laden, and ergo 'quality.' 
These are all the hundreds of thousands of buyers in the past five years who are now looking elsewhere for their next vehicle. Hondas and Toyotas may be 'boring' in comparison, but they work, are (on the aggregate) more reliable, and less expensive to maintain. 
Sure, the survey is talking aggregates and there are always exceptions with those who have *never* had a problem with their car, or who have had nothing but problems with their cars. 
Volkswagen has a serious problem to handle, and more important, at this point they have an exceedingly difficult image problem to overcome. The question is: When will Volkswagen of America admit that the problem exists?


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Travis Grundke)*

YEAH! What he said...!







If VWoA wants to be considered a legitimate player among the elite German makes here in the US, the VW Dealership Service Departments will have to make it happen as of yesterday. 
Come to think of it, I remember reading an interview with 'ol Ferdy Piech and the topic was about the poor fit/finish, reliability and endless recalls of American makes...ie. Ford Focus' numerous recalls during it's first year of sale. One of his statements was, "...well if they build their cars right the first time, they wouldn't be having these issues...". Now I have the greatest respect for Piech's accomplishments and how he's turned the house of VW 180 degrees, making VW an industry juggernaut. Being the consumate engineer that he is, I find it ironic that he's make such a statement during an interview regarding quality control and here's VW with all these issues regarding defective parts, most of which were made by 3rd party manufacturer and not VW themselves...though the bottomline is that these parts leave the VW manufacturing plants as a VW product, irregardless if VW made the defective parts or not...it's still regarded as VW product as a whole.
I really want to see the whole VW experience eventually come up to the hight standards they hope to attain, because for the most part, we love our '02 A4 1.8 Quattro and '01 Passat Variant 4mo. But so far, our experiences have us wondering if we will rish buying another VW product and dread dealing with the questionable customer service...this is the reason why we didn't buy another BMW (we've owned 3 already). On the other hand, I'm still loving the new products coming down the pipeline, so maybe we will get a TReg...ahhh....decisions decisions...







!


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## Nomorebunny (May 28, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (VWMarco)*

If I polled 10k folks randomly and asked, 'Do you think Bush is a war mongering madman bent on global domination?' and got back a, '85% agree', you'd say what? Now I didn't tell you that everyone I called was in either San Fransisco or Seatle, and thus got the results I wanted. But that is my result. Random and all American(in a manner of speaking anyhow). That is why it is an "opinion poll", like asking, 'Do you like your Dub, sir?'
But counting up a pile of broken window regulators is NOT an opinion guys. A heater core blowing up on Mrs. Johnson's leg is a cold(figure of speach), hard fact. Also a fact; the hecho e mexico cars have more problems. OOOooo, I'm a search'n for a scapegoat am I...No, just more facts. And why does the VW dealer have a pile of metal clips for the window regs so the dealers can fix it right, yet VW STILL ships the cotton pickin cars w/ the plastic ones. AARrrrgg. And is a copper heater core so hard to make. I think they came first, didn't they...


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

I didn't vote because I couldn't decide between the first three options...
As you can see from my sig below, my 1993 Passat has about 198,000 miles on it now, and I'm about to hit 48,000 on the 2001 Jetta. My mother also previously owned a 1993 Passat GLX, which she traded in for a Buick at about 80,000 miles.
The two Passat's (my mom's was new, mine was used with 68,000 miles) were/are plagued with problems. I won't go into details because it would take all night. My Passat has now been sitting for a month because it's in pretty bad shape (though the engine runs like new), and I'm waiting to sell off a 2001 F-150 to pay for the 20AE I test drove today. I should have replaced it long ago, but I just can't seem to get rid of the car--I love it too much to see it go!
The Jetta, which we got in the summer of 2000 (one of the first turbos off the boat), on the other hand has seen mild problems over the past three years (1 window reg last year, 1 coolant temp sensor last month, and the rear brakes at about 34K--fully covered by VW long after the warranty expired). The window reg was covered by the warranty, but the coolant sensor, a <$10US part, cost me $200 to have fixed. I could have done it myself once I found out it was a temp sensor, but my wife auth'd the repair before talking to me.







Oh yeah, and the light on the climate control panel has a loose connector, so sometimes it goes out until I give it a whack. Again, I love this car. I'll probably replace it with a Jetta or Passat wagon just to get a bit of extra hauling room.
My experience with VW has led me to believe that there is some truth in what JDP has to report, but less that they seem to indicate for the later models. After examning JDP's methodology, I believe their polling methods leave a bit to be desired. CU seems a bit more accurate, placing the VW models in a moderately reliable category.
One note about VW--I've never heard of anyone complaining about the reliability of their engine mechanicals. As I've said often, the engines don't break, but things attached to the engine sometimes do break!
But the bottom line is, the VW brand commands a premium price in the US market, and VW needs to improve their reliability record, not to mention their customer service record, if they want to grow their market share--the current sub-premium experience frequently doesn't jive with the premium price. I believe this is the main reason that VW has so much trouble trying to move W8's; VW hasn't proven that they can be trusted with that much money. This doesn't bode well for sales of the Touareg and Phaeton.
Personally, there isn't another vehicle out there that satisfies my expectations of an automobile, so I'll be sticking with VW for the forseeable future. Hopefully, they won't drive me to drink...more. Yes Hondas and Toyotas may in fact be *much* more reliable (or not, depending on which Honda/Toyota owner you ask), but I can't live with a car that doesn't excite me--life is too damn short for that.
Then again, I'm spooked enough that I'll probably pass on the R32, and maybe even the 20AE, in favor of a plain vanilla GTI. I won't feel as bad about having only dropped $20K for a GTI, as opposed to $24K for a 20AE (and not getting leather), or $33K for an R32 (even if it is quite close to being my dream everyday driver). I'd rather put the extra money into a Jeep or Factory Five roadster.


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## Integrale (Aug 1, 1999)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Travis Grundke)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Travis Grundke* »_While I agree with those who challenge the survey results (always good to question sources!), I do not like to see 'apologists'. While those of us on these forums are Volkswagen aficionados, on the aggregate, Volkswagen has done an exceedingly poor job with quality control and also with customer satisfaction when it comes to dealing with the Dealership Network in North America. 
I've stated it before - those who bought the notoriously 'buggy' 1998 New Beetles, the first runs of the New Jetta, the Coil Pack-Plagued 2002 1.8T and VR6 models, the MAF, O2, and speed sensor failures, the window regulator failures, the two mandatory safety recalls since 1999, etc., etc., etc., - those people who are 'long term', those people whose leases are coming due, whose cars should be paid off at this moment - these are the people answering the survery and looking to buy new cars. 
These are people - the agregate buyers - who are not visiting these forums, but dealing with the VW Dealership Service Departments and VoA on a constant basis, are the buyers who have 'had it' with Volkswagen.
These are the people who bought into the VoA marketing hype of "German Engineering", that a classy, high quality interior makes the car feel more subtantial, value-laden, and ergo 'quality.' 
These are all the hundreds of thousands of buyers in the past five years who are now looking elsewhere for their next vehicle. Hondas and Toyotas may be 'boring' in comparison, but they work, are (on the aggregate) more reliable, and less expensive to maintain. 
Sure, the survey is talking aggregates and there are always exceptions with those who have *never* had a problem with their car, or who have had nothing but problems with their cars. 
Volkswagen has a serious problem to handle, and more important, at this point they have an exceedingly difficult image problem to overcome. The question is: When will Volkswagen of America admit that the problem exists?

Do a search on the internet and look up the number of recalls and safety issues that have been issued out by and for Honda cars. It's ALOT.
I'll say it again, it's customer service that drives results of polls moreso than anything else. Honda and Toyota both deal with resolving customer issues in a better way that VW does...even IF their mechanical issues are, in most case, far more serious than VWs. 
When I bought my VW, I wasn't concerned at all with the reliability of the car, I was much more concerned with the service I'd get if I something went wrong. My rating of the car would be completely different than the rating of the service and dealerships.
That's why I think these surveys should be taken with a grain of salt when you choose a car.


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## mayte (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Integrale)*

"Honda and Toyota both deal with resolving customer issues in a better way that VW does...even IF their mechanical issues are, in most case, far more serious than VWs. "
Far more serious ? The serious problems I see reported on Honda are the transmission problem that Honda is taking care of as well as doubling the warranty on the affected cars . On Toyota the big problem is sludge in the V6 engines which Toyota is taking care of by rebuilding / replacing the engines . In contrast VW's response to the coil problem is to stonewall it till it becomes a scandal . From the posts on this site the dealers still haven't gotten their act together on this . As for the suspension arm problems Is VW doing anything at all ? I love my Passat but VWoA and the dealer network are a disgrace .


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## amper (Jun 27, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (mayte)*

Assuming you're talking about the failing bushing on early B5's, VAG issued a recall for all B5 Audi A4's, but no such recall was ever issued for the Passat--despite the fact that they use the *exact same part*. So yes, VW is doing *something*, but not for you.


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (amper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *amper* »_Assuming you're talking about the failing bushing on early B5's, VAG issued a recall for all B5 Audi A4's, but no such recall was ever issued for the Passat--despite the fact that they use the *exact same part*. So yes, VW is doing *something*, but not for you.

I was about to state that there was a recall for that issue, but didn't realize that only AUDI issued the recall...and I believe that affected the '99-00 models, but correct me if I'm wrong on this. How lame is that







...hmmm, I'm feeling better about not buying the Touareg just yet.


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## aonegolf79 (Mar 5, 2002)

What exactly is the point of this thread? It seems fairly stupid now that I've checked out. PEACE


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## p_ferlow (Apr 11, 2003)

*Re: (aonegolf79)*

Boy there is a lot of blah blah blah in this thread.
Here's a comparison, on my 1998 F-150 I've had a bad plug and coil wire, dealer charged me $330cdn, that's the last time I visited the dealer. Otherwise I've done the front brakes twice (new rotors, pads) but second time around just had rotors ground. I've replaced the rear axle fluid and subsequently had a leak, so have to do that again... cost of my time, some blue silicone and Redline synthetic oil. Other than that I've replaced the spark plugs with Autolite platinum pro's which misfired and were again replaced, also new MSD wires at that time. Then a set of tires, oil and filter changes. Oh, I've also replaced the coolant and the brake fluid. That's with 120k kms.
On the 2000 turbo Beetle it's been one oil change at the dealer, I just changed the oil and filter today at home. Noticed a nice oil leak somewhere on the back of the motor from the turbo oil inlet pipe or coming from the valve cover. Have't determined the source yet but I have to say that's BS considering only 22k kms on the car.
I have to say though that the ride quality and overall impression on the newer VDubs is very good. And to the dealer tech that put on the last oil filter, F*CK you ahole. I've never seen an oil filter on that tight, bent my removal tool.
The other thing I wanted to mention was your overall impression reflects heavily on the quality of service you receive for your vehicle at the dealer. 
Unfortunately Wetmore VW in West Vancouver, BC isn't around anymore. The son moved on to Capilano VW (goofs) and he did all the new car sales.
With Ford, the local dealer was Dave Buck Ford, now Cam Clark Ford, and their service was marginal, don't touch their body shop with a 20ft pole because they hire a bunch of stupid a$$ monkeys.
If a dealer won't help you get firm with them. Talk to the area manager and keep going up the ladder until you're satisfied. If that doesn't help make a website out of your troubles.
That's my 2 cents.
EDIT: forgot that I also changed the fluid in the transmission in the Ford once. It's do for another change soon and I'm going to mod the valve body to firm up the shifts a bit. http://www.fordf150.net , http://www.f150online.com .










_Modified by p_ferlow at 10:59 PM 7-21-2003_


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## ciscolv (Jul 2, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

dont get me wrong - i do love my vw. i cant see myself driving anything else. but if they cant learn to keep a window rolled up - im going to have to trade it in. and if i do trade it in....its not gunna be a vw.


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## Ricestalker (Sep 8, 2002)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (ciscolv)*

My dad and my brother in law both have TDI Golfs. Those things are in the shop monthly and now that the warranty is out they are turning into money pits. You would think a "modern" car could be designed so that you wouldn't have to replace the timing belt and water pump every 40k miles or risk a $3000 repair bill. (50mpg is nice though) My GTI on the other hand has 210K miles on it and pulls harder than both of those unreliable oil burners. I think they are all great cars, I just wish they were more reliable since most VW dealerships are run by price gouging moronic thieves.
Chet


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Ricestalker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ricestalker* »_My dad and my brother in law both have TDI Golfs. Those things are in the shop monthly and now that the warranty is out they are turning into money pits. 

Hey Chet, are your family's TDIs recent model years? Not that I don't doubt they're having issues, but I was led to believe by friends of mine who own a 2000 Golf TDI that they're pretty reliable. I know the diesel VWs we currently have in the US are the old diesel technology VW has developed...they're supposedly waiting for the US to incorporate the cleaner/higher quality diesel that the rest of the world has been using. 50 mpg is a great feature, but not if it's in the shop all the time.


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## jhillyer (Feb 17, 2002)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

Wow, three open-end azzes in one posting. Will the first azz carry luggage -- maybe if you ride his backside wearing spurs?

_Quote, originally posted by *Der schwarze Drache* »_
























Hrmmm.










_Modified by jhillyer at 7:03 PM 7-28-2003_


_Modified by jhillyer at 7:04 PM 7-28-2003_


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## Ricestalker (Sep 8, 2002)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (VWMarco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWMarco* »_
Hey Chet, are your family's TDIs recent model years? Not that I don't doubt they're having issues, but I was led to believe by friends of mine who own a 2000 Golf TDI that they're pretty reliable. I know the diesel VWs we currently have in the US are the old diesel technology VW has developed...they're supposedly waiting for the US to incorporate the cleaner/higher quality diesel that the rest of the world has been using. 50 mpg is a great feature, but not if it's in the shop all the time.

One is a 1999.5 and the other is a 2000. The 1999.5 is having the most issues, but it also has the most miles on it (I believe he hit 100k recently.) He is currently suffering from major power loss and frequent CELs. Local dealer keeps replacing things and not fixing the problem. Last time this happened he went on TDIclub.com and those guys diagnosed his problem, he told the dealer what to fix and they fixed it right. Sad when you get charged to research and diagnose your own problems. His water pump seized up and tossed his timing belt to the tune of a $3000 repair bill at about 46k miles. Strangely, he loves that car. I wouldn't own one.
Chet


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## nonenthusiast (Jun 2, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Ricestalker)*

Consumer Reports > JD Power > your personal experience and stories about friends cars


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (nonenthusiast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nonenthusiast* »_Consumer Reports > JD Power > your personal experience and stories about friends cars

If you're using only JD Power and Consumer Reports for insight on a carmake's history, performance and reliability, you're only getting a third of the picture. JD Powers is great to get a quick snapshot of the GENERAL reliability of a brand or model...but it says nothing of performance and ambience of a vehicle. Consumer Reports is geared from a perspective of the non-enthusiast (CR has been criticised for having testers who have none to little automotive background, though they're changing that apparently), and considering how they've done testing of cars in the past years, I'd take their judgement of autos with a grain of salt...especially have the whole SUV testing debacle where they drove SUVs in ways that are not intended, skewing their test results and judging cars inaccurately. With sites like Edmunds.com and several auto mags now have websites, not to mention enthusiast sites like this one, people should get better informed about buying a car considering that they're dropping anywhere from $10k to $100k+.
For example, according to JD Powers, Buick is the most reliable American brand...and let's say Consumer Reports may judge it as an average car, but considering that CR testers possibly don't know what they're talking about, what does that say about that Buick you were considering? Sure, you can also go by your own experiences, but how experienced can one be if you're not a car enthusiast? Friends can be good resources, if they're car heads, but even they can be biased. What about car comparisons with other cars in the same segment as the Buick you're considering...as well as innovative technologies, level of standard kit and costs of upgrades and resale/residual values...?
Just like getting educated on anything, there really is no replacing doing real solid research. One has go to get really informed by reading as many automotive periodicals, study comparisons, research the carmaker's history/engineering/residual value history, research survey sites...then fine tune the art of actually knowing how to haggle with the car dealers (another art form in itself). I know it sounds like a lot of effort, but if you're gonna drop that much money, you'd think you do more than rely on resources that are very limited in their depth and understanding of automobiles and the passion behind them.
Ultimately, it'll come down to your guidelines of finding the car that fits your needs, regardless what anyone thinks...it's your money after all. Since buying a car is such a huge purchase, it amazes me how people who're not car enthusiasts will drop thousands, going by the "cute" commercial they saw or 'cause all the lastest rap videos are featuring that particular car. Then they wonder why their car turns out to be absolute crap after a year or so...


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## dubzero (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

If you love your dub, it's unconditional love. If you don't, you want something else and you're probably not reading this.








Personally, I love my Jetta and I don't think that I'll be buying from anybody else.


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## Blue_Bug (Apr 13, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (INSANE808JETTA)*

I gotta VW....only have had very few problems (is it cause its 30 years old maybe?) But i love it, and if anyone has anyting bad to say about it, they can kiss my arse! ha ha


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## bahn burner (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Blue_Bug)*

according to the editor of Lemon Aid car guide, he stated that "VW have problems with the front brake hoses pulling out of the calipers"








I work in a car dealership where we sell all makes of cars NA, euro and Japanese and at times it's cheaper to buy brakes and maintainence items for an import than a domestic.
I love my VW and it has NEVER let me down


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## tornadoredcabby (Feb 14, 2002)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

hech en Mexico, any questions


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## Boogety Boogety (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (jhillyer)*

OK, let's light this thread up again. A lot of good thoughts here, so let's add to the "quality issues" pile:
I read an intriguing article in the Tuesday, 090903 Dallas Morning News "Business Tuesday" section ("Making Adjustments," by Terry Box, Staff Writer). Short version: Automotive quality control has become much improved in the last two-three years... which _costs dealers a lot of money_ because warranty repairs are a profitable source of cash flow for them. Fewer visits to dealers for warranty issues = less $$ for them. Some of them are now having to offer oil changes at Jiffy-Lube-type prices, washing cars, doing brake jobs, etc., things that most buyers do elsewhere as they are under the impression that dealers are expensive (they _are_). Anything to make up for warranty repair business loss due to improved quality of the automobiles. With me so far?
Conspiracy theory: Would it be too out of control for me to suspect that some dealers are NOT doing the warranty repairs right the first (or second or third...) time ON PURPOSE to get you to come back and get more warranty money from the home office? Under this scenario, they would not care if you had to take off a day of work, or get another ride, or rent a car... as long as your warranty problem created a cash-flow-stream for them. It would be in their accountant's interest to keep those repair bays FULL of warranty work of some type, evenb repetitive issues, because they know most drivers are not going to go to the dealer for other upkeep repairs if they are not covered by warranty.
This would give the impression to the hapless driver that his (in actuality) reliable vehicle is a POS that breaks down more often than a drunk hypochondriac. And all because a dealer is trying to make an extra buck or two.
So, whom do you believe...??


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## 90GreenG60 (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Boogety Boogety)*

I dont like dealers period







But I like my VWs and thats all that I care about


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## Turbo-S (Oct 7, 2002)

Olike my VDub, I wish that VW dealers/ service were better.
So I support both ideas, if that makes any sense


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## GOLFINI (Jul 30, 2003)

JD Power is a owner satisfaction poll. It is not a good test of reliability because some owners are big complainers while some don't care about problems.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (GOLFINI)*

I just Love my VW because its fun.....thats all


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## jmullman (Aug 20, 2001)

Well, I've never been asked by any publication how I like my VW. Nor anyone I know, for that matter. How do they come to these numbers?


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: (jmullman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jmullman* »_Well, I've never been asked by any publication how I like my VW. Nor anyone I know, for that matter. How do they come to these numbers?

Actually there are tons of marketing/PR firms that run private screenings, polls, reviews, batch marketing and test groups for all sorts of products, including cars...best part is that many of those who're selected get paid $50 or so just to do so.
Not sure how they select people, but much of it is word of mouth or finding them on the street like at a mall. I got offered to test atheletic footware when I was in college for $50/day for a couple of hours...turned out I was testing new Nikes, Reeboks and Kappas. Other friends of mine have been called back repeatedly for testings for several new cars models yet to be released to the public. 
It also appears that they pool the testers from major city markets, so if you're living in some bumpkin suburb or town, chances are real low that you'll be "discovered" unless you're referred by someone or you're part of a particular market they're after. They select people on the basis of their client's intended target market...ie. middle age professionals with a college degree making $??? annual income...etc.


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## Boogety Boogety (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: (VWMarco)*

I also own a '98 Dodge converted Ram Van (the "Big Ass Van") which My Beloved and I use on road trips (2-4 times a year) and I use ocassionally with clients (airport runs, that sort of thing). Harris Poll somehow got my name, and 2-3 times a year, they give me an opportunity to "review" similar vehicles for a little $$. the kicker is... they NEVER ask me to give my opinion on vehicles even remotely similar to what I own! The last time I was "invited," the vehicles were full-size pickups from Chevy, GMC, Toyota, Dodge and (what?!) a Freightliner cube van (?!?). Took a couple of hours, and they handed me (and about fifty-sixty other people that I could see and that I was not supposed to speak to... they come in waves of one-hour appointments) a check for $75. I gave my honest opinion of the vehicles via a 30-question questionaire per vehicle... then called my buddy and met him at Hooters for a celebratory "burning" of the free money...


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## blk240 (Oct 7, 2003)

i believe i'll never own a VW again. i first purchased a 99.5 vr6 jetta, for 24k it's hard to beat the performace/styling of the jetta's. with the first car it was in the shop repeatedly, the windows fell into the door. the electrical system was buggy (windows not rolling down, other lights would flicker). but the car ran great. so after the warranty went out i went and traded in my lemon for a 2k2 1.8t in hopes that the first year bugs were gone. so 30k miles on my new jetta and it's been in the shop over 10 times for different things. windows falling again, coil packs going out twice, now it's overheated 3 different times and my dealer finally seems to have replaced the right thing this time cause it's been a month and no overheat. as soon as the warranty on this POS is over i'm trading it in again for a japanese car.


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## Boogety Boogety (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: (blk240)*

Geez, sorry to hear you've had such a run of bad luck with the 'Dubs. I believe you'll never buy another one, too.








I still wonder if your dealer is not quite fixing things right the first time (refer to my conspiracy theory above somewhere)... I do expect things to go wrong with any complicated piece of machinery (and Jettas have a ton of parts that can go South)... but that's what dealer service departments are there for, to make things right again. If they're not making the car right, they aren't making the customer happy... and because you're unhappy, you're going to buy a Japanese car as a result.
Pity. Not for you, but for VW's loss of a two-time customer...








I notice you've only posted twice... maybe you haven't had a chance to peruse the many, many good things passionate 'Dubbers have to say about their rides... and weigh in the nasty comments as well. Were I you, I'd go back to my dealer and say, "duuude, here it is the second time I've had a car from you that you can't fix to my satisfaction, should I go to another dealer for a different brand, or what do you suggest I try this time from your inventory? And what are you willing to do to keep me happy?" Listen carefully to his answer, and proceed accordingly.
Maybe next time, I'll see you in a 'Dub instead of a Honda...







But do what's best for you, and goooood luck, and as the Tiger used to say, "Happy Motoring..."
Aside (speaking of tigers, and hope VW is listening): After Siegfried and Roy's recent unhappy tiger incident, the moral of the story is... don't p*ss off the help...


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: (Boogety Boogety)*

Ya know, I totally sympathize with your Jetta experience. I think I had mentioned this in an earlier post, but a friend of mine in Sacramento had bought a '01 VR6 Jetta and had endless problems...ie. dropping windows, excessive lubrication oozing out onto his drive way, the coil pack fiasco..etc...and he got so pissy about it, he dropped kicked his Jetta and bought a new Acura TSX which he absolutely loves. 
He is so disenchanged with VW, absolutely swearing off all VW products (stupid, but understandable for his mindframe) but is so intrigued as to why I've been so happy with my VW and Audi. I explained to him that he bought a Jetta and I bought a Passat. My car is built on different platform (Audi A4 platform) and his is built on an aging Golf IV platform that has had a record of problems over the years, which he could have easily picked up on had he listened to my advice and reviewed VW forums like this. But he was so caught up in the "new car" mode and really loved how the Jetta looked. As you can see, he's no true car enthusiast nor would he make that claim, but he would always state, "...when I got rid of my Integra to get this car, I thought I was getting something special..." He'd go on about how the Jetta performed real well and had guts where his Integra didn't, but of course he's ultimately state that his Integra never had any mechanical problems like he's had to endure with his '01 Jetta. Again, I'd tell him, "...well it's not like I didn't warn ya...and honestly, I thought by '01 they'd have worked all the bugs out on the Jetta...!" Boy, was I wrong.
The Passat 2.8V6 and base engine used on essentially the whole VW lineup were the only two engines unaffected by the coil pack fiasco...hell even the W8 engines and the newer 3.0 V6 engines used in the Audis were affected by the crap coil packs. To make matters worse, VW did a horrible job in addressing the coil pack issue and allowed the issue to go on far too long, resulting even on the mainstream press like the Wall Street Journal and NY Times to cite the coil pack fiasco...and even then VW was slow to take accountability. Talk about killing an market gain in sales momentum VW was achieving here in the US. Sad considering how badly VW was doing during the late '80s and early '90s until Piech revamped the whole company during the '90s.
As for you being burned twice by the VW bad joo joo vibe, can't say I blame ya, but like anyone who's familiar with the automotive industry, it's well known that if you want reliability, you do your research thoroughly on the car you like and research it's platform's issues over the years...otherwise, you'll have to buy from a first tier Japanese manufacturer (they're only two) like Toyota and Honda. Other Japanese makes are second tier manufacturers like Nissan, Subaru and Mazda whose reliability and fit/finish are on par with VWs, if not worse...and I'm not sure how much better their quality will improve considering that the latter three are now owned by Renault, GM and Ford respectively.
Before I bought my '01 Passat 4motion Variant, I did some serious research on Passats from previous years, noting belt wear and suspension A-arm issues. Since the model I was considering was a 4motion (VW's take of the latest version of Audi's Quattro awd), I realized that it would have a better suspension than the regular Passat (has rear double wishbone suspension) and the other issues were rectified...so I felt confident when I bought my Passat and figured it could be no worse than my experiences owning three 5 series BMWs (Broke My Wallet)...although, I've owned an Honda Accord and can attest to their rock solid reliability, though they sucked when it came to surviving car impacts, which eventually totalled my beloved '84 Accord (bought brand new and had over 120k miles before it's life ended abruptly after getting hit by a driver who fell asleep at the wheel). 
Believe me, when I got my first service notice (recall announcement) that I needed to have the gas tank sensors replaced at no cost, I was thinking, "...oh no, is this the beginning of a trend of issues for me to endure?..." Got that fix rectified during my regular check up...then the coil pack issue raised its ugly head, affecting my '02 A4, but not my Passat (THANK GAWD). I've not had any issues since and I'd consider getting another VW product, but only after reviewing that model and it's platform issues. I'm in the market for a new car...and maybe in a few years, trade in my Passat for maybe Passat W8 variant or late model Audi Allroad. Bottomline, my family has always owned every german make, mostly MB and BMWs, recently adding our first Audi and VW to our clan. I'm just really hoping that with Pischetsrieder at the helm, he'll be able to take VW to higher level of reliability and fit/finish for the same money...time will tell...and if not, there will always be Honda, Toyota and their respective upline brands, Acura & Lexus, to satisfy what the German automakers in the US haven't consistently followed through in accomplishment in areas or reliability and quality control.
Btw, my buddy did say that his new TSX may not drive like an A4 or a BMW, but he's feeling quite assured that he'll not have to worry about having to take his car into the shop for non-routine maintenance. That being said, I always make sure to tell him how my ride has been doing great and love going up to the snow, not having to worry about snow chains...then of course, I ask him, "...do they have snow chains for your new TSX yet?"


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

*Re: (VWMarco)*

Good points.
Though, on the TSX, having driven it several times I can state that the car drives just as well as an A4 and just a tad below the 3-Series. However, when you take the cost into account ($26,990 loaded, sans the navigation system) - it beats the pants off of anything that Audi/BMW offer for the price.


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Der schwarze Drache)*

Survey results aside, you can trace most *initial quality* issues back to VWs quest to cheapen the parts they put into their cars. Flywheels and brake rotors on newer VWs are made of cheap soft metal so they end up being consumables (and a little more gravy for the stealership at replacement time). No big deal, only another $150 on top of a $350 brake job or a $750 clutch/PP job. 
You'd think parts would be made more robust as the price of a car goes up...the opposite is true.


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## UncleBens (Oct 30, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (mayte)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mayte* »_"Honda and Toyota both deal with resolving customer issues in a better way that VW does...even IF their mechanical issues are, in most case, far more serious than VWs. "
Far more serious ? The serious problems I see reported on Honda are the transmission problem that Honda is taking care of as well as doubling the warranty on the affected cars . On Toyota the big problem is sludge in the V6 engines which Toyota is taking care of by rebuilding / replacing the engines . In contrast VW's response to the coil problem is to stonewall it till it becomes a scandal . From the posts on this site the dealers still haven't gotten their act together on this . As for the suspension arm problems Is VW doing anything at all ? I love my Passat but VWoA and the dealer network are a disgrace .

You're saying a bad coilpack issue is just as serious as complete engine and transmission failures?
rotfl!


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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (UncleBens)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UncleBens* »_
You're saying a bad coilpack issue is just as serious as complete engine and transmission failures?
rotfl!


Let me play devil's advocate here







...All things being equal, no, a bad coilpack issue is not as serious as complete engine and transmission failures (BMW's M3 has been having major engine seizures & fires, resulting in dealerships replacing the whole engine). The problem all thing ARE NOT equal when speaking of VW handling of recall issues and the poor dealership service, regardless whether VW has control of how a dealership or not. While Honda, Toyota and BMW are reportedly replacing/repairing said issues immediately to keep customers happy, VW had played the denial game regarding coil packs, fault A arms and repeated falling windows. Sure, initially, the VW issues aren't as serious, but still bad enough that if they're not addressed, the VW product remains crippled or unusable while the Honda, Toyota and BMW go on their "merry" way. So, in reality, yeah, a busted coil pack that never gets fixed is worse than engine or transmission failure that DOES get fixed. That's the reality of it all. I just can't see why there's such a big to-do about customers wanting better service to match their supposed more upmarket products. 
If VW really wants to compete in the premium market to go head to head with likes of Mercedes in the US market, what the hell is holding VW back? The Touareg has already arrived and the Phaeton is just around the corner. VW lost a lot of customers just due to it's lame handling of the coil pack issue...does VW really want to risk letting things worsen by adding more dealership issues? There's a reason why people keep buying Saturns...and that's cause they got the best customer service in the industry next to Lexus. I know that in a couple of years when I'm ready to purchase another awd car, I won't hesitate to go to another brand if they can offer a better product for the same money. The auto industry has gotten too competitive (meaning more products for me to choose from) for me to have to suffer BS servicing to remain loyal to a particular brand. Why should I have to shell bucko bucks for a car and then beg for good servicing from a company that claims to cater to the more well-healed customer? Still love my Passat 4motion Variant and my Audi A4 quattro, but there is always something newer and better over the horizon...how badly does VW want to continue keeping me as a customer...?


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (VWMarco)*

Amen, brother VWMarco. You've nailed it. Volkswagen still doesn't understand the proper way to treat a customer - no matter how trivial the issue. Most of this is due to the dealership network, but the rest of it is due to Volkswagen's "head up ass" syndrome where they would rather hide behind nifty marketing schtick than get down and dirty and take care of their quality control and customer retention.
I am one of those people who is actively looking to other brands to satisfy my desires and currently, the Acura TSX has me won with hardly any reservations other than the extremely high demand and limited supply at the moment. Volkswagen has given me absolutely no reason to stay with the brand - quality control issues with my 2000 GLS VR6 are horrible, the cost of ownership has been far too high - and quite frankly, with the hyper competitiveness of the market today there are just too many options available for me to stay with Volkswagen. Perhaps in 4 years I'll come back to the brand, but they have somehow manager to break every rule of customer satisfaction since day one of my ownership. 
I think that the exact word that I would use (and many others, I might add) is simply: disappointment. Anyone I've met with a VW quality issue always tells me that they had such high hopes for their car, yet feel like they have been let down. This, ironically, is the flip-side of using 'emotional branding' - it works well to lure people in, but they also feel a deep sense of betrayal when things go wrong. That is something which is very hard to correct for once the damage is done.


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## UncleBens (Oct 30, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Travis Grundke)*

ahhh.. the joys of living in a competitive free market society. You don't like what you've got, move on to the next one. I think VW is very lucky to have had customers like you who are so passionate about their automobile experience and are loyal enough to the brand to give a crap to even voice your displeasure and point them in the right direction as to what they need to fix. If only GM could say the same.
good luck


_Modified by UncleBens at 5:52 PM 10-11-2003_


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## Boogety Boogety (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Travis Grundke)*

An excellent reply.
Knock on wood (or whatever superstition gets you through the day)...







: so far our NBC has been flawless. The only visit to the dealership so far was for the first oil change and to get them to reset the airbag light (my fault... installed a remote radar detector, took apart the dash, tried to start and move the car with the speedo binnacle disconnected [dumb move: car won't start without it], and airbag light locked "on"). Dealership was most understanding and happily complied with my request without a lot of dirty looks.
But I don't put up with a lot of crap from vendors. It's MY money they want, I know that, and I expect to be treated with a ton of ongoing respect if they want my money to continue flowing into their cash registers. And I'll pay extra if I need to to get the service I demand.
Example: Yes, I could travel with a much leaner budget if I needed to. I can stay at a Hyatt or a Westin or even a Comfort Inn if I have to. But I go out of my way to find a Ritz Carlton property if one is available where business or pleasure take me. Why would I pay $400 a night for a room, when a $100 room is available to me? One word: Service. I know that no matter how outlandish my needs are, how desperate my situation, how unexpected the emergency, the Ritz Carlton personnel are there to cover my six. Long after I forget the extra $$, I will still remember how their service pulled my rear out of a fire and helped me save a key account, or took care of a medical emergency, or made sure my wife had everything she needed when her luggage was lost. You don't forget that level of service, and once you have experienced it, you don't want to do without it.
My Mercedes dealership has always taken care of me. My BMW dealership has always taken care of me. My Cadillac dealership ticked me off 25 years ago, and guess who hasn't bought a Caddy since...








I would expect VW to treat their customers (not just the high-end guys, but the Golf and Jetta and NB buyers) with the same level of service and dedication as any other fine auto brand. If they don't, they will lose my business, your business, and that of many other disgruntled customers. As long as they treat me as though my check hasn't cleared, I'll be triple-net happy





















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## VWMarco (Nov 21, 2000)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (Boogety Boogety)*

Boogety...your reply very much reflects my views. Granted, if you've noticed, much of the wholly disappointed Vortexers who've posted their "unhappiness" here on current forum strings are owners of late model Jettas (VR6 particularly) & Golfs. For as old as that platform has been, I'm really surprised that their are still such nasty issues like windows falling into doors because VW used some cheap flimsy plastic guide piece instead of metal to save costs...and this after having read in one of my various auto mags that quoted Ferdinand Piech, criticising American auto manufacturers, stating, "...if you build the car right the first time out, you won't have such long lists of recalls later on...". Ironic, huh?








I'm not saying VWs in general have as many recalls as Ford, GM or DaimlerChrysler, but situations like the coil pack fiasco still burns a nasty taste in so many VW customers as of late...and I think it burns so because people were expecting better of VW with their current line of products. Though I could tell my friend who just bought a new Acura TSX till I'm blue in the face that he bought a VW product that was on a platform that has been having a lot of issues and that it's not the same for all their car platforms, it matters not...he's a former VW customer who'll never take another chance on another VW product. Though I've had good experiences as far as reliability concerning my Passat & A4 (both of which share a different platform from the Jetta/Golf), his experience with his '01 Jetta VR6 left such a bad taste in his mouth that all he does as his ultimate rationalization for not buying an A4 is that saying, "Shame on VW once for putting out a crap product...shame on me twice if I go buy another VW product, regardless what platform it is...!" And he'll be the first to state that he's no car enthusiast, but he'd like to think that if he's going to throwdown $27k+ for a car, he shouldn't have to worry whether a simple thing like a window not staying in place will haunt him again. At that point, what can I say? VW made their bed and they burned the sheets in the process...and unfortunately, the dealerships in the US are not helping VW's reputation at this time.
The fact that someone who's not necessarily a car-head can come on to this forum and read about VW's negatives from consumer standpoints, holds as much weight as any other legitimate auto consumer resource to any potential buyer. To become loyal to a brand, there's gotta be enough positive ownership experience to merit the loyalty...unfortunately, VW and their dealerships are shooting themselves in the foot. 
People usually fall into three camps (or a combination of 2 of the 3 groups): Group One: The VW fans/die-hards, Group Two: individuals who're non-car enthusiasts who bought their VW cause it's "cute" or "cool lookin", and then the individuals who'll buy any brand so long as the car is reliable, performs as stated and retains their residual value. Group 1 can care less what negative press gets out there...they just love their VWs. Group 3 usually does extensive amounts of product research, may be car-enthusiasts themselves, but ultimately goes with their inner gut after bringing their choices to less than handful of models/makes (they need to be sure they're getting their money's worth). Group 2 are usually the ones who did some comparitive research (if any at all), possibly got caught in VW's add campaigns, but usually know nothing about car platforms and corpoarte bin parts sharing/platforms. Group 2 individuals also tend to value Consumer Reports reviews (not a total bad thing) and feel more comfortable about hearing their friends' and co-workers' experience with their late model VW car, as opposed to reading every article/review out there on the particular model they're interested in. Most car buyers (about 60-80%) fall into Group 2 and they'll also be the first to [email protected]* the loudest and make the most hoo haa when anything goes wrong with their car, especially if it concerns a particular model (yes, they will jump on THAT "mad-as-hell" band wagon). This isn't to slam the car buying public by any means, but this is merely to point out that car makers can't really afford to take the car buying public for granted too long, especially here in the US...and we all remember all too well how badly Audi nearly disappeared from the US market after the infamous 20/20 expose on unintended accelleration that was proven years later as untrue...but the damage had been done at that point. Most consumers tend to have high regard for brand awareness, whether it be a $10 or $60k item...so positive brand awareness can translate into billions in annual profits and future residuals. 
How long can VW poorly deal with handling quality control issues like the coil pack fiasco and infamous poor dealership service in the US market before the public will turn? Do you think after the Piech years, Pischetsrieder will really allow VW to stutter in it's newly acquired market gain in the '90s, only to fall flat on its face in '00s on his watch? I don't know about you, but I don't have any specific ideas myself. I'd like to think that with the increase competition between automakers, shorter model life cycles, the constant raising of the bar standard of innovative technologies and standard kit/content, as well as car manufacturer acquistions left and right...that consumers still have yet to see the VW groups shine and that we've yet to see the best to come from the VW group as of yet. I think VW has the potential to be leaders in each of the segments they compete in. What I'm waiting to see is if the former BMW head, Pischetsrieder, can really turn VW's "potential to be class leaders" into reality and put a stop to quality control hiccups and vastly improve the dealership service experience. 
There will always be tough competition and consumers expectations always rises accordingly. That being said, VW still is a top contender in its attempts to attain "premium" product reputation in the US market...but in order for VW to succeed, the next GOLF platform will need to spawn products that are heads and shoulders above the current ailing platform, not to mention other new critical models to cement VW's goal to be regarded as a serious competitor to the German marques in the US market while still catering to VW's traditional market segments.


_Modified by VWMarco at 5:10 PM 10-13-2003_


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

*Re: Whom do you believe? (VWMarco)*

VWMarco -
It's very interesting, your comment about customer reactions to a brand when they have a bad experience with a segment of that brand. With automobiles, due to the great expense (cars are usually the second most expensive purchase, next to a home, that most people will make) involved, there is a great amount of pride and face saving that goes on.
That is why most people 'fudge' the truth when you ask them, "what kind of a deal did you get on your new car?" Most people will respond that they beat the dealer into the ground, that they negotiated a deal $1000 lower than the dealer would otherwise go, yadda, yadda yadda....sure, and you should have seen 'the one that got away'. 
People are also unwilling to admit that their car is a 'lemon', or that their car has lots of issues. For the simple reason of pride - they do not want others to think that they made a bad purchase. They don't want others to believe that they chose poorly. ESPECIALLY in the eyes of that one friend or uncle who always is there to say, "well, Bob, I told you to get a Ford..."
The point is: automobiles are emotional, expensive items. When someone has a bad experience with an expensive product they are very unlikely to return for the basic fear of humiliation. Car purchases, especially higher-line models, are significantly influenced by word-of-mouth. If your buddies at the golf club are talking about the problems with their Bimmers, you may just look to a Lexus or Benz so that at the next golf outing you can proudly and slyly state, "why, no, guys - my Benz has been picture perfect since day one."
Imagine if you are the one guy in the group who bought the Phaeton, "So, Jim - tell me, do the service guys at least wipe their hands, or did they get grease all over the steering wheel like on your old Passat?"
It all sounds very trivial and silly - but it all adds up to the psychology of marketing. Volkswagen has fumbled the ball big time here and better work triple-time to compensate.


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## THE KILLER RABBIT (Jun 2, 2003)

the consumer byer catalog for cars gave it a great review


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## SteveMKIIDub (Nov 6, 2003)

I thought VW fixed the whole window, coil, etc problem? I heard they did anyway, and I heard alot of problems with these new VW's, just like you are mentioning. I think it's bull**** and VW should stop wasting their engineeres on stupid expensive Sedans and Roadsters (as cool as they are) and actually get them making a decent car, because they are expensive as hell, and from what most of you have said, crap. How can they compete with something like a Corolla? In Ontario, they are made in Cambridge, not some place way down south in Mexico I couldn't give a crap about and probably couldn't compete with the quality Canadians make. Anyways, I think VW needs to address all these problems and try to get back all the buyers they've lost to the Japanese.


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