# Here is my complete Crank Fix..



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Quick premise: Crank bolt snapped getting up to speed on interstate. Pulley key wasted and crank Key slot partially boogered.
here is my fix pictorial:
*Parts:*
- New Crank Pulley - VW (049-105-263-C)
- New Crank Bolt - VW (N-903-208-02)
- All New Belts
- Loctite (Stud and Bearing mount)
- 2 STD Roller Bearings (mid '70-'s Harley Sportster Trans Mainshaft)
- Brake Cleaner
*Special Tools:*
- Good set of Cobalt Drill bits
- #5 Easyout (5/16) with 19/32 drill bit (if needed)
- 1/16, 5/64, 9/64, 5/32 Cobalt drills (if not in set)
- Flywheel lock (if you have one








- Torque wrench
- Center Punch
- 14mm x 1.5 Thread Tap (if needed)
*Steps:*
*1-* To make it easy I removed: the timing belt cover, the Serp tensioner, right from wheel, lower timing belt cover and inner fender well.
























*2-* Using a center Punch I made a mark in the exact center of the broken Crank Bolt. I started with an 1/8 pilot drill bit and worked my way up to 19/32 to extract.
















*3-* I then took the new crank Pulley on the drill press with a 1/16 drill bit and drilled one hole opposite keyway and all the way through (you can use 2 dowel pins if your crank is really trashed). I drilled the pilot hole so it would be in the center of the crank between the crank bolt hole and the outer edge of the crank (SEE Hind Sight Notes at bottom).
*4-* using the 1/16 drill bit and the crank pulley placed on the crank as a template, I drilled the hole in the crank to a depth of 1/2 the length of the dowel pin.
*5-* I then used the 5/64 drill bit in the same fashion, drilled all the way through the crank pulley (using it as a template) and then into the crank to the same depth as #4.
*6-* using the 9/64 drill I drilled the crank hole out (not using the pulley this time) to same depth as above (1/2 the length of the dowel). Go back and forth a few times to make the hole a tad bigger. You could probably go to the 5/32 drill for the crank only so the pin slides right in, but I wanted a tighter fit.
*7-* using the 9/64 drill I drilled the crank pulley hole 1/16" more then 1/2 the depth of the dowel from the Backside out. This will prevent the dowel from backing out and allow and easy way to drive the dowel in to the proper depth in the crank pulley.
















*8-* Drive dowel pin(s) into crank pulley








*9-* Tap crank threads (14mm x 1.5) to clean them up if necessary. I needed to because when the bolt snapped, it slightly screwed up the first 2 threads. The bolt must screw in perfectly by hand to be able to torque properly.
*10-* use brake cleaner to clean everything. I then used a small amount of Loctite stud and bearing mount on the crank key slot, than mate surface of the crank pulley and crank and then used regular red (271) on the bolt.
*11-* Torqued to proper specs (66 Ft'Lbs + 1/2 Turn) using homemade flywheel lock.









*Hind Sight notes:*
* 1 -* If your crank key slot is really bad you may want to use 2 dowels on either side of the crank (away from the old crank key slot).
* 2-* If I had to re-do, I would probably have drilled the dowel(s) closer to the outside edge of the crank (further away from the crank bolt). This is because there is less shear force the further out you go from the cranks center point. I was worried about being too close to the end of the crank, but in reality, that's where the stock keyway is...
This is just me over analyzing things as it will likely never matter anyway..
Good luck and be patient if you try to do this as well. A broken drill bit in the crank will give you a world of hurt. (light pressures to drill and straight holes)
Shawn


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## brilliantyellowg60 (Aug 30, 2001)

thanks, i will be doing the same, but using 2 pins as the crank isnt lookng too good
i will try and get pics too


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## Alpineg60 (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: (brilliantyellowg60)*

OOPS! WHEN i WROTE TC/J that is the shear in the crank pulley itself not the pin, that is alot more complex dynamics prob i think regarding contact forces, and inertial forces. D'Alemberts principal.
sorry









_Modified by Alpineg60 at 1:37 PM 9-20-2004_


_Modified by Alpineg60 at 8:55 AM 9-21-2004_


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*

great write up!
now i can go ahead and fix mine too so it will never happen again


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (Alpineg60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Alpineg60* »_Actually the further out from center you go the more shearing force (rotational shear = Tc/J) where T is torque, J the polar moment of inertia, and c is the radius.
The location of the key being close to the center is probibly the best design, that is where it experiences the least shear.








_Modified by Alpineg60 at 1:37 PM 9-20-2004_




I hope you didn't get a good grade in Dynamics or machine Design







Your equation is fine and you are on the right track to support *what I am saying*. What you failed to look at was the Value of J (the polar Moment of inertia). For simplicity, to consider the Key as a hoop at a radial distance r (or c in your equation), the equation for J is:









Notice that the radius in J is to the *4th* power! This is the reason why drive shafts are hollow and have large diameters. The material at a small radius does little to resist shear. If you were correct, everyone would be scurrying to change out their 100mm CVs for 90's  If you want to read up check out this link (spec. pages 8 and 9). http://ocw.mit.edu/.../torsion.pdf

Shawn


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## bulldog2.G (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: (sdezego)*

"shear" can be thought of even more simply by thinking of, as illustration, a set of "shears" or scissors. It is easier to cut a given material at the beginning of the shears travel, closest to is axis. The further away from axis, the more force necessary to cut the same material. It is leverage dependant. 
Don't challange Mr. Shawn !!!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (Alpineg60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Alpineg60* »_OOPS! WHEN i WROTE TC/J ......
sorry










No worries (if I was your professor, I would have given you partial credit for thinking in the right context), but you do owe me a







for making me think so hard.








Shawn


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## corradokyd (Jun 4, 1999)

well done. i like seein some sht get done right with busted knuckles...


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## G60 CAB (Oct 26, 2003)

*Re: (corradokyd)*

Thats what I did, except I used two dowel pins!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*

Finally been able to drive her a bit. Man was it a joy. Decided to do the rod bearings while I had the pan off (Pan was damaged from the tow home) and fix a couple of coolant hose issues and such. A new pan was only like $15 from Autotechparts!
If I could focus for any amount of time, I would be able to build up my ABA








Shawn


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## bhwang (Sep 8, 2003)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*

I'm having my supercharger rebuilt by KK at the moment. Dave from KK recommended that it might be a good idea for me to change out the crank bolt.
When I went to the stealership to get one, they recommended that I also replace the crank pulley as well. Is this really necessary? It's like $150 for one of those suckers.
-Burt


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (bhwang)*

That doesn't sound correct. 
It is not a bad idea to change the cog, but if thats what they were quoting you, it's only about $15-20 aftermarket (autotechparts.com). If yours is in perfect shape, there is no real reason to change. The only way to know for sure is to take it off and inspect the keyway.
Part number listed in first post.
S


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## MikkiJayne (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*

Interesting! I thought this only happened on TDIs...
Shame I can't drill straight, otherwise I'd do this too








Mikki x


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (MikkiJayne)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MikkiJayne* »_Interesting! I thought this only happened on TDIs...


Sadly no. It is very common on the G60's. Especially, when the mileage is > 100k miles.
Too many cycles on the stretch bolt I guess.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_
Sadly no. *It is very common on the G60's*. Especially, when the mileage is > 100k miles.
Too many cycles on the stretch bolt I guess.

And its now starting to become common with the 20V's


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (Wizard-of-OD)*

You want to know something very peculiar too?
If you look at the Bentley on an ABA vs a G60 (both use the exact same bolt and cog), you will see that the specs are:
1.) G60 = 66Ft/lbs + 1/2 turn
2.) ABA = 66Ft/lbs + 1/4 turn
Go figure...
I don't think VW knows/knew wtf


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## jmaddocks (Jan 31, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_You want to know something very peculiar too?
If you look at the Bentley on an ABA vs a G60 (both use the exact same bolt and cog), you will see that the specs are:
1.) G60 = 66Ft/lbs + 1/2 turn
2.) ABA = 66Ft/lbs + 1/4 turn


It's almost as if some lowly bolt engineer at VW pulled the specs out of his butt!


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## MikkiJayne (Jan 1, 2007)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (jmaddocks)*

Or manual writer at Bentley Publishers








The theory with the TDIs is that the rotating mass of the alternator puts a load on the crank during firing cycles at idle (ie crank slows, but the alternator doesn't). The load puts stress on the sprocket and the bolt is the weakest link. 
The fix on the TDI is a one-way clutched alternator pulley which allows the crank to change speed without any inertial load from the alternator (ie the alternator spins freely under its own inertia when the crank slows down).
This pulley was fitted to 98> TDIs I think, and apparently some VR6s.
I'm not that surprised that it can happen on the G60, as that has a fair amount of rotating mass too, plus an alternator. Odd that it can happen on the 20V too though?
Mikki x


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (MikkiJayne)*

That's is interesting. I have seen the "one way" clutched alternator drive bearings used more and more, but don't think about it in this case.
Shawn


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## DJ Appa (Oct 1, 2001)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*

What a good thread I wiped 2 heads never once thought to check to even see if the key was worn 
My problem was the pully kept getting loose and the timing belt stopped spinning so I thought it just was'nt torqued right


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## swingwing205 (Jun 13, 2001)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_
Sadly no. It is very common on the G60's. Especially, when the mileage is > 100k miles.
Too many cycles on the stretch bolt I guess.

Are you saying you think that the bolt @ the crank stretches still more over time, given many cycles? It should be a recommended change out item at certain maintenance intervals then (like for instance, at a timing belt change), esp since this effects other VW engines like the TDI's and 20v's.
The more I start to think about that, the more I'm thinking it's like "timing out" parts on aircraft (as I'd guess there's no good way to figure out Torque Events on a car, so timing the part out would be the only practical solution...). But, the G60 is a finicky beast, and you do have to kind of look ahead. 
Do you think it's because of the load of the supercharger constantly on the crank then? It couldn't be just the valve drive train load. I've always kind of thought that was possible.


_Modified by swingwing205 at 11:16 AM 11-29-2008_


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (swingwing205)*

I personally think it is a little of everything you mention. 
If you look at the failures (and I have inspected quite a few), you can see hoe the fracture of the bolt propagates. Look at the pic above and you can see the fracture which is text book fracture mechanics that originates from too many cycles, stretches, necking, etc..


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## swingwing205 (Jun 13, 2001)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_I personally think it is a little of everything you mention. 
If you look at the failures (and I have inspected quite a few), you can see hoe the fracture of the bolt propagates. Look at the pic above and you can see the fracture which is text book fracture mechanics that originates from too many cycles, stretches, necking, etc.. 

My thoughts too, we're def on the same page.
The regular 8v's seem immune from this problem, but think about the fact that they have close to nothing to drive, other than the valve drivetrain. The G60's and TDI have all that and both have extra heavy duty appliances to drive, the Supercharger on the G60's and the Injection pump on the TDI's, both of which put some real load on the crank.
Now, I'm wondering about the 20v's, why they would have so much trouble, as they're doing something very similar to the problem discussed here. Maybe extra heavy valve drivetrain load? I wouldn't think it would be much if any more than the old 16v set up, but I could totally be wrong.
Well, that settles it. When I do my Timing belt on my G60, I'm changing this crank bolt out as well. Wish me well guys, and hope that this prob isn't already started on my car ( I don't think it is, but...).


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (swingwing205)*

The TDi's and 20v (06a block) uses a larger bolt.


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## sprocket007 (Oct 14, 2002)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*

When I do the timing belt I change all the engine seals on that side and the crank bolt...you might as well ur there anyway and It really does not take that long.
Wade


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## swingwing205 (Jun 13, 2001)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sprocket007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sprocket007* »_When I do the timing belt I change all the engine seals on that side and the crank bolt...you might as well ur there anyway and It really does not take that long.
Wade

...And seems like VERY cheap insurance. Way to go VW....


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (sdezego)*

Am I right in assuming you used bearing rollers as dowel pins, and also used an aftermarket (solid steel, not sintered) crank gear? Just how hard is the crank nose?


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## Z-Raddo G60 (Nov 8, 2007)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (lloydbiker)*

i replaced the original crank bolt for the crank pulley from the original "stretchy" to the non stretch and washer...
how will this compare?

edit:
btw, great discussion...nice write up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Z-Raddo G60 at 1:17 PM 4-5-2009_


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

Personally, I would not. There was a reason to go to the torque-to-yield bolt. They tried that as the first stage fix, but it didn't do it. Those bolts are not cheap, and they are the sub for all previous equipment. Number one, I believe they are higher strength , to begin with.


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## Z-Raddo G60 (Nov 8, 2007)

*Re: (lloydbiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lloydbiker* »_Personally, I would not. There was a reason to go to the torque-to-yield bolt. They tried that as the first stage fix, but it didn't do it. Those bolts are not cheap, and they are the sub for all previous equipment. Number one, I believe they are higher strength , to begin with. 

dang...i don't like that _sound_...
next up for a little something...or more importantly...more specifics on it? sorry to jack this end up...


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm currently looking at doing this to my '97 TD (AAZ engine-seldom seen in US) with 3 pins, cutting the torque to 66ft/lb+1/4 turn (a little less stress on the bolt). I figure, if it can handle a supercharger in addition to the regular accessories, it should be good with the clunky idle and IP of the diesel. I know there's a mod using the TDI cog, but that involves machining the crank snout, (beyond my capabilities, and I'm not even sure within the local machine shop's). This I can easily do with my drill press and power drill, in the car. I'm also planning to install a 'freewheel' alternator pulley. Any thoughts or comments?

_Modified by lloydbiker at 9:38 AM 4-6-2009_


_Modified by lloydbiker at 9:42 AM 4-6-2009_


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Here is my complete Crank Fix.. (lloydbiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lloydbiker* »_Am I right in assuming you used bearing rollers as dowel pins, and also used an aftermarket (solid steel, not sintered) crank gear? Just how hard is the crank nose?

Correct, as dowels. The crank is not that hard and drills right out with a good cobalt drill bit.

As far as the clutch type alt pulley, I personally think it is a good idea and in fact I am using one on my new 2020 motor using the whole late 1.8t alt.


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## Danno13 (Mar 25, 2004)

Can any alt be fitted with a clutch type pulley?


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

In all likelihood the cog is harder than the crank, right?


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

*Re: (lloydbiker)*

Great repair thread. 
When you have alot of torque only overkill will do. 























OWNED


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

Is that keyway damage on rt side of slot? What did you use as pins? 'Sporty' trans rollers, same as Shawn? Them's wicked HP #'s what intake pressure are you running? I'm just working with a bone stock 1.9L turbo diesel pony. I can see that these engines could be worse than the 1.9L TD on that timing system, with the load of the 'charger hung on.


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

Just a query on torquing after pinning the gear.Do you still use the original torquing specs, or reduce to ABA spec, and thus reduce stress on the bolt? Has anyone even considered this? There would be less danger of stretching/necking the bolt, and less danger of breaking it. I don't see why you couldn't. After all, you've probably tripled the the shear strength (if triple pinned). Thoughts, anyone?


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

*Re: (lloydbiker)*

I use the OEM Torque specs on the crank bolt w/ loc tite.
if you are going to dowl the crank and gear be sure the dowl holes
are straight and the dowls are sunk deep enough so when the 
gear is bolted on it goes flush. if the hole is shallow then the dowl will 
keep the gear from bolting up flush and cause more damage.


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

*Re: (REPOMAN)*

Did you use something different for pins? Yours give the impression of being larger dia than Shawn's. I'm thinking of using 5/32"dia tool steel, larger dia than Shawn's, 7/8" long (X2), not as hard as a bearing roller, but harder than a HSS drill or a std 'Woodruff' key, and on-hand. Any thoughts? Don't forget, I'm working with a bone stock 1.9L indirect-injection diesel, with its clunky idle and A/C, and I'll be fitting a 'clutched' alternator pulley at the same time.

_Modified by lloydbiker at 6:43 PM 4-22-2009_


_Modified by lloydbiker at 6:45 PM 4-22-2009_


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

Made my pins today. 5/32"x13/16" long, from a chuck key that fit nothing I own. I'm in the middle of a move (exchange of house, across street), so the mods will have to wait until I can get at my good drill press (don't trust my 'Hobby' unit to drill that true). I was cleaning, packing in my shop, and had the material in hand (they're now in a baggie, in the glove compartment and the scrap is in garbage). Not driving car 'til mods complete, but fuel cost is killing me on my volunteer work (50mi/day x5/wk) w/ the Dodge. Anyway, I figure if I drill both sides to 7/16"(easy with depth pin on my vernier), I should have no problems with fitting. When I get it installed, I plan to throw the pulley (or one off my 1.6 NA) on, and check to see that it's running true, before I re-install the timing belt covers. Who knows, I might even slap it on with the old bolt just for a test run, at idle, (should be OK, with no loading). 


_Modified by lloydbiker at 8:54 PM 4-23-2009_


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Figured I would add an update to this and a PSA. Against better judgement when I did the fix, I used the only crank seal I had laying around which was a new Erling brand seal. Complete garbage and started leaking like a sieve after a year or two. Replaced with a proper Reinze whose OD is much tighter to specs.
Also, made this tool because I was too lazy to pull off the pan


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

*Re: (sdezego)*

Don't you just hate it when that happens? My local parts supplier has two tools, looking like huge (36" long) cheap wrenches, that he loans out to purchasers of gears or bolts, so they can properly torque the bolts.


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## theguy6989 (May 3, 2006)

*Re: (lloydbiker)*

I just had this happen to my mk1 swapped g60. What are the chances my valves got bent and my head cracked from the timing possibly jumping with the crank bolt snapping.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (theguy6989)*

Stock cam, probably ok. Aftermarket cam, no telling.
S


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

If you crank wobbles it likely got screwed up when it detached. Possible the hub in teh rubber ring got off center etc. 

I have done about 5 cars over the years and have not had a single one fail. Including my car on which this thread was based on. The key is getting the crank bolt torqued properly!


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)




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## VanDamage007 (Aug 31, 2010)

*Oh no...*

Oh no... Looks like I get to go drill holes in my crank.... Great. Im expecting the crankshaft to be F'ed. I was tring to get my 88 GTi running, the timings off. SO I retimed the belt lining everything up correctly (flywheel and cam gear) then it fired up and reved up for a second then wouldent start again. I checked the timing belt alignment and its off again... So I tried like 5 more times to do the procedure but upon lining up the crank (at the flywheel) the cam gear marks are 5 - 10 teeth off. I must have a spun crank gear. Now seeing that everyone else has too, IM almost certian. Well Im off to do the deed. Thanks for the help folks! I owe you all a :beer:


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## mkiiicruisecontrol (Jul 17, 2009)

*An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure*

I just thought I would mention this thread because I definitely think these problems are related:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-helps-prevent-catastrophic-crank-pulley-fail.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

I haven't read through your whole thread, but I fully believe in the directional Alt pulley. In fact, on my new 20v hybrid motor, I made sure to make use of it.

Just keep in mind that the Frequent issues with the G60 motors over 100k can also be attributed to the G60 charger and added stress cycles on the Crank bolt.


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## ThatsNotStock (Dec 30, 2004)

sdezego said:


> Also, made this tool because I was too lazy to pull off the pan


This thread is excellent. Im getting ready to do the same to my 90 g60. I was ready to buy a new(used) block to fix mine when a vw buddy sent me the link. can you tell me what the bracket is doing that you welded up?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

It is just holding the Cog, so I could torque the crank bolt properly.


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## VanDamage007 (Aug 31, 2010)

Did the deed today. Yup she spun on the crank and ate it up. New gear, double pinned on with two 3/16 dowels. Retime it tomorrow and pray. Oh we made a cutter that remachined the end of the crank back flat and true. Nice.


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## mkiiicruisecontrol (Jul 17, 2009)

*@Vandamaga...Re: Cutter*

Please make a post on how you made the cutter, and include a pic or two.


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## lloydbiker (Sep 26, 2008)

Has anyone ever had to replace a gear after it's been pinned?


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

I'd like to thank Shawn for this! A stand up citizen of the 'tex. :thumbup::beer:

It was right there when I needed it! :banghead:









I bought a bearing and tore it apart to use the pins. But then decide to use the back end of a 5/32 HSS drill bit cut down as the pin, because the bearing I acquired had smaller then expected rollers. (Both width and depth wise) But in the end I got a quite a good size pin in there, so I decide to go with just one, since my crank wasn't totally trashed.

I was expecting a wicked fight with drilling into the gear and the crank (forged?) but with a new titanium HSS drill bit set I bought, I had no problems at all. In fact it was way too easy, like a knife through hot butter. That's what made me realize pin diameter and getting really good penetration into the crank and gear was going to be crucial for a lasting fix. At fist I was concerned the back of a drill bit might not be strong enough, but if anything the gear will crack into pieces before the bit ever sheers.

But if it did happen again, my hand would be forced to buy a ABA bottom end. And then I'll be forced to put a 16v head on it, and hang a big T3 off the rear. Will SNS still do a 16v Turbo chip? :laugh:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

haha, thanks! Glad you got it all worked out.

Using the drill bit was something that I had considered and thought to be a good option, but everything that I have ever built has some piece or part from a Harley and I could not let my G60 be any different - LOL.

It was surprising to me as well how easy the crank was to drill into, until I started thinking about it and my M.E. geekiness started shining though. Forged does not necessarily mean "hardened", so the differences between cast and forged really has to do with the metal grain and density structure. Hardened is usually associated with brittleness to some extent, which is good for some things. but not good for others (i.e a crank). 

...anyway, not trying to get too far off path, but yea, the crank is easy to drill. 

I prefer Cobalt bits, but Ti-HSS is fine. If you have to drill a broken off crank bolt or forbid an easy out, then Cobalt is the only option.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

lloydbiker said:


> Has anyone ever had to replace a gear after it's been pinned?


Yes


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

G60 Carat said:


> Hey Shawn, I made a crank gear holder, but having a hard time getting the bolt to go 1/2 turn. I got 66ft/lbs and 1/4 turn before I broke the end a craftsman 1/2 inch extension using a 5 foot snipe bar.
> 
> Were all you guys able to get a full 1/2 turn after 66 ft/lbs?
> 
> ...


Yes, without a doubt. It was a b!tch though. I used a 1/2" BA breaker bar with a 12pt impact socket (after I broke all my regular ones). I had to do it in a few attempts, which is fine.

If you are between 1/4 adn 1/2 you should be fine. The key is having clean crank threads and lubricating the threads and all mating surfaces with either loctite (makes it harder to get apart, but who cares) or a Moly grease.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

SHould I back itout and do it all again, or just keep tightening from the 1/4 turn? 


I was just going to keep tightening it.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

G60 Carat said:


> SHould I back itout and do it all again, or just keep tightening from the 1/4 turn?
> 
> 
> I was just going to keep tightening it.


Yea, that is fine (as long as you didn't use loctite). Bentley even states, you can do it in multiple attempts :laugh:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

No loctite, just a light oil on the threads. (I don't believe you don't need loctite when it's that crazy tight)

So you're saying it's ok to just keep on tightening it?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

G60 Carat said:


> No loctite, just a light oil on the threads. (I don't believe you don't need loctite when it's that crazy tight)
> 
> So you're saying it's ok to just keep on tightening it?


Yes


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Thanks for all the help, If I'm ever in Florida I'll buy you a Sam Adams :beer:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Well......ungodly tight was not working for me. I got the bolt to turn maybe a fraction more, before it made a pop sound"












New bolt and new gear again this week, and if I get it to 1/4 turn I'll just stop. I'll just use copious red loctite and pray for the best. :banghead:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

:banghead:

Did you have all 4 bolts in that cog or just 2? Either way, that is one disavantage to use that type of tool vs using a Flywheel lock. Either way 

I personally am not opposed to going 66 + 1/4 with using loctitie on everything. Threads, cog face, etc.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

sdezego said:


> :banghead:
> 
> Did you have all 4 bolts in that cog or just 2? Either way, that is one disavantage to use that type of tool vs using a Flywheel lock. Either way
> 
> I personally am not opposed to going 66 + 1/4 with using loctitie on everything. Threads, cog face, etc.


 
Ok another bolt and gear, got the pins lined up by bolting the 2 gears together. 

Anyways, I cleaned the threads in the crank and smeared the bolt in red loctite, got it 66ft/lbs and like 3/8 turn. Then the flexing on the snipe bar got me panicky about breaking something again, so I stopped there. 

One thing is for sure I've never had the crank bolt this tight before, so hopefully it stays put.... and I do mean it this time. :banghead:


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

G60 Carat said:


> Well......ungodly tight was not working for me. I got the bolt to turn maybe a fraction more, before it made a pop sound"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


leave it to superman to crack steel with just a torque wrench

thanks for pic


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

This thread was inspiration for me to create a similar one on TDICLUB: 

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=318602 

I used an 11/64" drill through both the pulley and crank followed by a 3/16" reamer. 

























I used the old bolt to hold the cog square & snug on the crank: 

















The first crank cog I did went beautifully, the 2nd one had a snag: 
A word of warning, make certain you have the holes deep enough. I'd suggest that you do this with the cog off the crank. Put the pins in the crank, and then measure how far out they stand. If you install the pins with the drill bolt in place you will have a challenge to get the drill bolt out...I learned the hard way buy I overcame the lesson. 

I would recommend drilling the sprocket out on a drill press or mill. Once the sprocket holes are made you can use a regular hand drill to drill the holes in the crank. 

Yes the timing belt does need to come out to do this. 

The dowel pins that I used were 3/16" x 1.5" 

Here is what I bought if you want to spend the extra money for a box of 50 for $14 Plus shipping if you can't pick them up: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Dowel-Pin-2MB66?Pid=search 

Here is the reamer: 
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=360068-131588&ucst=t 

Here is the final pass 11/64 drill bit (before the reamer): 
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=53012&ucst=t 


The VW crank holder can also be used to hold the cam gear when doing the TDI timing belt. Its $65 from Worldimpex: http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/oem-counter-support_238827.html 

You will also need a new bolt, I used the old bolt to hold the sprocket in place while I drilled the crank. I had to grind the sides of the old bolt (shown in the pictures) 

I bought the pins, reamer and drill bit because its about once a year that I have my hands on a strange motor that should be pinned during a rebuild or whatnot. 

Here is a picture of the dealership tool for torque procedure on the crank sprocket:


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Looking good. 

You are worried about that new long block aren't you?


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

Motors are a terrible thing to waste. I pinned my crank on my old motor last year. I said then that I end up pinning a crank just about once a year (for myself or friends) and so far I haven't lied. I hope my tools built up some dust over the next couple years. Next I'm going for 2 micron fuel filtering.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

:thumbup:


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

After getting advice from another vortexer about pinning my crank while I rebuild my G60 I found this great thread.

So, what's going on here? Is the keyway in the crank sprocket failing?

I don't believe I have any signs that this failure was imminent for me. However, is the general practice to replace the +20 year old sprocket and bolt or can the sprocket/bolt be inspected to determine if reuse is in order? Again, nothing has failed for me....yet.... umpkin:

thanks!
-eddie


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

its not the cog which is the main problem, but the crank nose ... the crank is made of soft metal


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

ah ok, so if everything seems ok just reuse the sprocket and bolt and then pin it. 

-e


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

Don't reuse the bolt, its a one-time use stretch bolt. I think both the crank and sprocket are soft.


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## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

G60ING said:


> Don't reuse the bolt, its a one-time use stretch bolt. I think both the crank and sprocket are soft.


Two time use bolt IIRC. I think it says you may retorque once in the book. But yeah, replace the bolt at least every timing belt change or ideally every G60 rebuild interval. Maybe I will get around to doing this before my motor goes boom.


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

Great, thanks for the info. The bolt is cheap enough. 

You don't have to remove the sprocket when doing the timing belt, do you? Just remove the pulley and slide the belt off. At least that's how I recall doing it on my 16v motors. I'd think the PG would be the same.

-e


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Well I'm rebuilding an engine, and I have an 85 crank lying around. It's still forged like a G60 crank, but uses a crank bolt with 6 sides?

Think there would be any issue running this type of crank bolt on a G60? Does anybody know if that bolt is the same thread as the 12 point bolts?

I want to use this crank because it's snout isn't all messed up like my G60 one.

edit: I just read the thread pitch is supposed to be the same, so I should be able to use a 12point bolt, but I would swear the 12point didn't fit when I tried one. I'll investigate more tomorrow.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

6 pt bolt is a Non-Stretch bolt and the 12 is a stretch. So, 6 Pt tq specs are different.

If you use the 6, I would use loctite. 16v had the same variations.


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

Ok, I'm going through with this and following G60ING's parts list.

Let me know if I'm missing anything:

1. I'll be drilling through the sprocket on a drill press. 
2. I'll mount the sprocket on the crank with the bolt on snug. Then I'll transfer drill gently through the sprocket into the crank just to get pilot marks. 
3. Then I'll remove the sprocket and drill two holes in the crank. Ill use tape on the bit to ensure I go the depth I need to. I presume it will be just enough so that the pins are flush to the top side of the sprocket (or so).
4. Then I'll ream both sprocket and crank.

Is this basically the idea? 

-e


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

Drill the holes all the way in with the sprocket as a guide. Use lubercant and you will be fine.

Also before installing the sprocket for the final time insert the pins in the crank and make certain the amount sticking out is less than thickness of the sprocket.


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

G60ING said:


> Also before installing the sprocket for the final time insert the pins in the crank and make certain the amount sticking out is less than thickness of the sprocket.



I plan on just measuring and using tape on the drill bit to know how deep to go. If the dowel is 1 1/2" then just drill that minus the thickness of the sprocket plus a smidge more for margin.


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

*Let's talk dimensions*

Hey all,

Ok, so I went with the 3/16" x 1.5" dowels but I'm having second thoughts.

I kinda worked too late into the night last night and screwed up twice. Enough that I have to replace the sprocket, its some $$ but not as bad had I messed up the crank end. 

First, the first hole I drilled was too close to the edge of the sprocket wall than my liking. So, I decided to scrap that hole and drill another two.

Secondly, I drilled the two holes (on a drill press) and decided to ream the holes right then and there. Bad idea, I didn't follow my own guide (posted above) and don't have holes to transfer drill into the crank. :banghead:

Here are some pics:


















So back to 1stvwparts.com for a new sprocket. :facepalm:

All in all, I was surprised how easy it is to drill into the sprocket. It's pretty damn soft.

So here is the deal, I think 3/16" diameter dowels are too thick relative to the remaining wall thickness on the sprocket and stub of the crank. I want at least 1 radius on either side of a hole. I measure the wall thickness of the protruding end of the sprocket to be 8mm thick. So, a 3/16" hole is about 4.77mm thick which is more than half the wall thickness. Add the fact that it's hard to get the hole right in the middle (ok thats just my crap machining skills) I'd prefer to go smaller. All in all that being said it's not that big, but when I look at the pieces in my hand it just seems too much.

So, I'm looking at moving down to 1/8" diameter dowels which are 3.2mm thick. Yes, we're only talking at 1.5mm difference but when you have 8mm to start with that's a lot, at least to me.  Also, I like the idea of stepping up the hole size to better nail the center of the sprocket lip.

Potential parts list:
1/8" steel dowel pins: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-dowel-pins/=kbi5ag
7/64" cobalt bit: http://www.mcmaster.com/#cobalt-drill-bits/=kbi5o2 
1/8" spiral flute reamer: http://www.mcmaster.com/#reamers/=kbi6bj

Total cost will be about $25 + shipping.

-e
Thoughts?


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

The shear strength of the pins will be reduced. Have you found out what the rating is on the new 1/8" pins?


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

Yup, strength should be reduced the square of the ratio of diameters for the same material. According to McMaster Carr their strongest pins at 3/16" are rated at 5900lbs, the 1/8" are rated at 2600 lbs (which is consistent with the 2.25 area multiplier). But, I don't know what those numbers mean _quantitatively_ in relation to the problem we are trying to solve; now that would be useful.

I'm guessing that the pins are certainly stronger than the sprocket and crank. The sprocket seemed real soft when I drilled through it. Therefore, I think keeping more material around the holes being drilled into the sprocket and in the crank (which run real close to the crank bolt hole) is important. It turns into going from worrying about the dowel pin snapping in single shear to the sprocket/crank yielding because there is too little meat around the dowel. 

Of course I don't have any data so its literally just my 2 cents. If I'm wrong, at least I can serve as a warning to others.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

I'm under the firm belief that most of my problems have been self induced. If you have to take the crank gear off, making sure it is fully tight to spec is critical. After breaking a gear in the process of trying to tighten it, I've realized I was never getting to spec...umm well ever before. In fact I'm so confident about this, that the new motor sitting on the stand in the garage is not getting pre-doweled.

While the motor is apart I'm using a block of wood to hold the crank in place, and a new bolt with red loctite. Getting it tight to spec, and that's it. I'll report back in if it strips. :facepalm:


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## g60301 (Aug 5, 2011)

Is changing the crank bolt that difficult of a job? Any special tool required besides something to hold the crank pulley in place?


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## TheRealEddie (May 8, 2006)

After getting the lower cover off you have access to the bolt. I haven't done it myself but I bet you can pull it off without removing the damper pulleys, timing belt, etc. However, just don't accidently bump it off the crank nose. It's best to set the crank to TDC first just in case the timing belt falls off.

Mine bolt came off with an impact wrench fairly easily.

-e


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## dovski (Mar 15, 2013)

*torquing*

Hya all, excuse me for first post here on a fantastic forum for VAG nuts!  

I'm building an AGU for my lotus and am about to get the crank gear off to replace the seals. 

It strikes me that tightening or loosening the retaining bolt without using the tool will apply shear loading to the key, gear and crank, potentially weakening the whole on rebuild, especially if the same method is used for tightening ie. holding the crank by any other method than using the gear holding tool. 

One of the pictures above of the fractured gear concerns me,,, was that gear held by bolts only accross the two points of failure or diametrically opposite or all four? 

I think its imperative that the parts are assembled bone dry with the exception of the the bolt threads. Not having the gear in my hands, is the crank/gear snout tapered fit or parallel? 

This cant be an achilles heal to the motors surely? its got to be assembly issues no?


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## mattrip (Sep 5, 2005)

While this thread is being brought back out... 

What is the best way to hold the crank and torque the crank bolt with the engine out of the car? 

As it currently sits:


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## DigiMatrix (Apr 16, 2010)

I use a home-made version of this: 










Available here: 
http://www.metalnerd.com/cat05.htm


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

dovski said:


> Hya all, excuse me for first post here on a fantastic forum for VAG nuts!
> 
> I'm building an AGU for my lotus and am about to get the crank gear off to replace the seals.
> 
> ...


 If you make or use a tool to hold the cog, it is best to use all 4 bolts and snug them up. I can only speculate why that gear pictured broke, but if I recall, the factory service tool uses only 2 bolts to hold the cog while torquing. 

All that said, it is better to hold the flywheel or crank while torquing so that it does not put sheer forces on the keyway. Again, factory service tool does hold by cog, so it is acceptable. 



> This cant be an achilles heal to the motors surely? its got to be assembly issues no?


 It is of sorts. The snout is parallel. The problem is really the bolt and torque method, but pinning is still a good idea. The bolts fail after so many engine cycles and that is the bottom line.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

DigiMatrix said:


> I use a home-made version of this:


 :thumbup:


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

The cog that cracked due to being held by two bolt holes looks like it was held by two holes next to each other. The factory tool uses holes opposite each other. I think if one wanted to you could add a 3rd hole. The nice thing about the factory tool is that it can double as cam counter hold tool (VERY IMPORTANT on TDIs)  thus saving even more $$$ 



G60 Carat said:


> Well......ungodly tight was not working for me. I got the bolt to turn maybe a fraction more, before it made a pop sound"
> 
> 
> 
> ...





G60ING said:


> This thread was inspiration for me to create a similar one on TDICLUB:
> 
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=318602
> 
> ...





sdezego said:


> If you make or use a tool to hold the cog, it is best to use all 4 bolts and snug them up. I can only speculate why that gear pictured broke, but if I recall, the factory service tool uses only 2 bolts to hold the cog while torquing.
> 
> All that said, it is better to hold the flywheel or crank while torquing so that it does not put sheer forces on the keyway. Again, factory service tool does hold by cog, so it is acceptable.
> 
> ...


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

mattrip said:


> While this thread is being brought back out...
> 
> What is the best way to hold the crank and torque the crank bolt with the engine out of the car?
> 
> As it currently sits:...


 Put the Flywheel on and use that to hold the crank via a wedge in one of the teeth to block or using a box end wrench on a pressure plate bolt with open end in bolt on block or engine stand bracket, etc. (saw the later done by a pic posted by G60ing). 

..orr, you can use a block of wood between the crank and block. Just make sure it is wide to spread the load. It does work... 

The right way is to use a flywheel lock. 

Here is one I made for doing 02m's


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

dovski said:


> Hya all, excuse me for first post here on a fantastic forum for VAG nuts!
> 
> I'm building an AGU for my lotus and am about to get the crank gear off to replace the seals.
> 
> ...


 So a block of wood to hold the crank with the oil pan off is bad?


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## dovski (Mar 15, 2013)

I took my block to the "Seat" dealership and for around $8 they allowed me to use their tool to hold the gear as in the previous pics using two opposing holes. I'd definitely say, the torque when doing/undoing should not be held by the crank as the fragile key and keyway are then taking all the torque reaction and subsequent shear from tightening as would holding the opposite flywheel end. The factory tool method worked easily with a lot of grunt used when the block was in the trunk of my car. 
Even I tried using a pickaxe shaft on the no.1 conrod and a breaker bar, but after reading the tales of woe on this fantastic forum I decided to use the dealer tool and it worked a charm. I now have a new bolt and pulley arriving tomorrow too, thanks to your advice, now should I pin ??:facepalm:


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## mattrip (Sep 5, 2005)

G60 Carat said:


> So a block of wood to hold the crank with the oil pan off is bad?


 I used the block of wood trick to hold the crank when removing the bolt. As S noted above it works for torquing as well (may go this route) if I cant piece together a holder. 

G60Carat- can you confirm what your were using to hold your crank when you broke the crank gear? 

For the record: My engine ~125K miles, driven hard, lots of piston damage from detonation, and the crank gear and bolt were *fine*. Bolt was very hard to remove. 2x4 wedged between the crank and block and I could not break it loose with my 1/2" breaker bar and leverage pipe, had to use beast of an impact. 

Rebuilding now and debating on pinning or only going back with a new bolt and the proper torque. 

sdezego I was reading your post on the 16V forum about using the ARP crank bolt and having to machine the bolt shoulder. Would you recommend this route on the PG motor? If so I was looking at the bolt below and grinding the washer down to fit. Opinions welcome:thumbup: I already bought the factory VW crank bolt.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

The tool I made only held onto to the 2 bolts on one side, it was just biggest piece of steel I had lying around, I basically cut a small moon shape into a 4" x 2' long piece of steel, and drilled the 2 holes. 


Earlier I mentioned I won't be bothering to pin the current engine on the stand. This is simply because after the fact I was talking to a much more experienced engine builder. He basically informed me, the key way is in no way designed to hold any sideways loading, it's only there to line everything up. All the holding force is on the torque spec and the stretch on the bolt. (hence the high torque figure and one time use bolt) So pinning it might help save your bacon if the torque spec was off, but it shouldn't be needed if full torque is reached. He also mentioned I should see if it states a light oil on the threads or dry, because the specs should actually call for that, and usually it's a light oil. This gives you a more accurate torquing as your not fighting near as much thread friction. 

Instead of a light oil, you can use a very small amount of red loctite, as it acts like a lubricate until it sets up. But it's also important to not over use the red loctite (or oil) as this can give you a hydro lock false read. Essentially your are compressing the lubricate/red loctite and this can through out your final read. 

Because of all this new information, I can't see how using a block of wood between the crank and block wall to hold the crank would be worse then any other way of locking the crank. It shouldn't put much more stress on the key way, and even if it did. Once fully tighten, the key way would be irrelevant. 

I also learned I was storing my torque wrench wrong, so there is always that too.


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## g60301 (Aug 5, 2011)

This whole issue scares me. How is one to tell if the key way is worn out? Is it better just to replace the crank bolt and forget about the whole issue? . Seems like a pain in the ass job to change a bolt . And if my block was rebuilt by p.o. would you assume they would of installed a new crank bolt?


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## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

g60301 said:


> This whole issue scares me. How is one to tell if the key way is worn out? Is it better just to replace the crank bolt and forget about the whole issue? . Seems like a pain in the ass job to change a bolt . And if my block was rebuilt by p.o. would you assume they would of installed a new crank bolt?


 It is a $5 bolt that takes like 30 minutes to replace. Just do it. Hell, do it every 10k as part of a check up. I do mine almost every year (since I am usually doing something else down there). I just used the gun on mine last time but I might actually do it correctly with the tool next. 


I talked to some "experts" as well about the pins and they all said you only need them when you didn't torque correctly. I probably didn't torque correctly, but I am not really worried about it just yet.


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

crazynorweegian said:


> It is a $5 bolt that takes like 30 minutes to replace. Just do it. Hell, do it every 10k as part of a check up. I do mine almost every year (since I am usually doing something else down there). I just used the gun on mine last time but I might actually do it correctly with the tool next.
> 
> 
> I talked to some "experts" as well about the pins and they all said you only need them when you didn't torque correctly. I probably didn't torque correctly, but I am not really worried about it just yet.


 I pinned my TDI's crank cog because when the timing cog has issues the cost of the repairs are in the thousands (20:1 CR). Sure if you do it correctly you have no issues, the pins just provide some extra safety margin and peace of mind. Besides pinnings is relatively cheap.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

crazynorweegian said:


> I talked to some "experts" as well about the pins and they all said you only need them when you didn't torque correctly.


 As I said earlier, this is the same advice I received from someone with about 100x times the engine building experience of anybody else I have ever met.  And it made good sense to me, I never had issue with a stripping a Factory installed crank gear. It wasn't until the first time I put my own on. :banghead: Plus breaking that gear, and not even getting it half way tight, really taught me how much force is actually going into tightening that bolt. 


Also new crank bolts in Canada are a few cents over $10 

This is not something you can do without a crank gear holder that holds all 4 bolts, or at very least 2 across from each other (even then It's going to be a lot of force on those 2 bolts) or removing the oil pan and blocking the crack with a piece of 2x4 or something. The crank has to be locked. Holding the brakes in gear or whatever, not going to work, not even close.


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## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

I am considering doing a pin again, despite my feelings about it not being necessary on a properly torqued bolt. I am getting ready for some summer cruise miles this year, so if I have time before the first planned trip, I may do it.

HOWEVER, the point of this post is to tell you all what I found while researching crank counterholds. VW3415 is the factory crank tool for tightening the bolt. There is a cheaper (updated?) version that is the Schley 67600 (there is a VW tool designation that I forgot). This updated version uses 3 points instead of two. The best commercial option is the crank yank which has a replaceable handle (for when you bend it doing the stretch), uses 4 points, and is adjustable albeit absurdly overkill and stupid expensive. The best option I have found so far is available through Techtonics Tuning and is very similar to the DIY counterhold that bolted to the block and uses 4 points. It is made by JRE and has a TT catalog number of 126 300.

http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=634&products_id=2028

I am ordering this tomorrow and using it to tighten my bolt while I install an ABA crank pulley.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

crazynorweegian said:


> I am considering doing a pin again, despite my feelings about it not being necessary on a properly torqued bolt.


You are missing the point of pinning somewhat. Pinning takes stress off of the bolt during engine cycles. It also adds extra insurance. Properly torqued bolts WILL fail at some point. There is no magic number, but for the G60 it seems to be between 100k-140k, but a lot of factors and not ALL will fail obviously.

I will never build another VW motor w/o pinning the Cog. $.02

Also, the best method to hold the crank is *NOT* by the COG. Not saying it will cause problems and I have done it many times, but the Factory tool is a service tool. Not a factory assembly tool. You are putting near (200-250)lb-ft to of tq directly to the keyway (and/or pins) when you hold by the cog. The absolute best way is to hold the crank via the Flywheel, but this is not easy in most cases when motor/trans is in the car.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

mattrip said:


> sdezego I was reading your post on the 16V forum about using the ARP crank bolt and having to machine the bolt shoulder. Would you recommend this route on the PG motor? If so I was looking at the bolt below and grinding the washer down to fit. Opinions welcome:thumbup: I already bought the factory VW crank bolt.


Remember that the 16v bolt is Longer due to the wider cog/timing belt, so don't reference the bolts I list in that thread. If there is an ARP of proper length (maybe I came across it and listed it in that thread I forget), then yes, I would recommend over the factory bolt. I do seem to recall that possibly using that Mitsu with the washer on the 8v vs no washer on the 16v. Either way, if you go that route, just verify the length. Thread pitch is the same. ...and make sure you follow ARP's TQ instructions as they will be different.


I should add that I am not opposed to the factory bolt, when done right. *HOWEVER*, the big question is the finish TQ angle. 90* or 180* PG states 1/2 turn where as the ABA (and most other MKII/III VWs) specify 1/4 and both use the same bolt and same cog, so figure that one out


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## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

here is a guy that found the pins individually from fastenal:


GTiTDi said:


> I ordered the necessary supplies to do this to both of my TDIs from Fastenal
> 
> I ordered the same drill bit and ream as G60ING, but also sourced the pins through them as well to simplify the process.
> 
> ...


----------



## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

G60ING said:


> here is a guy that found the pins individually from fastenal:


Nice! Exactly what I was looking for.

How about 130 degrees?


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## mattrip (Sep 5, 2005)

Just wanted to report that I torqued a new stock 12pt bolt to the Corrado Bentley specs. What a bear... 

I don't think I have ever tightened a bolt to that extent. The 180* is a bit much to get. Engine out of car, crank locked in place with solid wood blocks cut to size, and a monster breaker bar. Nothing broke:thumbup:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

mattrip said:


> Just wanted to report that I torqued a new stock 12pt bolt to the Corrado Bentley specs. What a bear...
> 
> I don't think I have ever tightened a bolt to that extent. The 180* is a bit much to get. Engine out of car, crank locked in place with solid wood blocks cut to size, and a monster breaker bar. Nothing broke:thumbup:


 
That's what I'm talking about. :thumbup::thumbup: 

I know for sure I've never gotten a crank bolt yet to full torque spec. This is why I'm sure the pinning is unnecessary, if you get the bolt fully to spec.


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

G60 Carat said:


> That's what I'm talking about. :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> I know for sure I've never gotten a crank bolt yet to full torque spec. This is why I'm sure the pinning is unnecessary, if you get the bolt fully to spec.


 
i have. took the bolt on my g60 to 90nm + 180 full degrees .. that was ****ing hard to do


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

weejunGL said:


> i have. took the bolt on my g60 to 90nm + 180 full degrees .. that was ****ing hard to do


 But did it still sheer the key afterwards?


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

no. its till on there  with dowelpins aswell


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## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

Just did mine with locktite as lube as per BBM. 

Used the AWESOME crank counterhold tool made by JRE and sold by TT 
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/in...ucts_id=2028&zenid=ju9e7vj4sflm5j8qi8hjhvspf2 

It made it so easy I did not even have to completely remove the timing cover or worry about the timing belt jumping teeth. I replaced my pulley with a new ABA one and replaced the bolt and properly torqued it. AWESOME! 

I got the 66ft/lb +1/2 turn no problem. Breaker and the extension pipe from my floor jack did the trick. However, I did snap my socket down the length of it. I got to ACE just as they closed to buy another. The first one was like 40 years old though, so NBD. 

I don't think the bolt is ever coming off, snapped or not...


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## 71norton (May 5, 2013)

*VW bolt problem*

It should be noted somewhere that the crankshaft pully bolt snapping is a cronic problem and every engine made with this design is going to have this happen at some point. Volkswagon does not acknowledge this design flaw, even though it is obvious the bolt can't take the kind of load put on it. 
If you plan on keeping your VW, this bolt should be changed every 80K. 
This is the worst design I have ever seen by a wide margin.


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## 71norton (May 5, 2013)

*Cracks*

Check the pully closely for cracks, it also is made of cheap steel.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

71norton said:


> It should be noted somewhere that the crankshaft pully bolt snapping is a cronic problem and every engine made with this design is going to have this happen at some point. Volkswagon does not acknowledge this design flaw, even though it is obvious the bolt can't take the kind of load put on it.
> If you plan on keeping your VW, this bolt should be changed every 80K.
> This is the worst design I have ever seen by a wide margin.


 I would agree with this assessment!


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

*Flawed*

It is nowhere near the worst design flaw I have ever seen. Its not even top 10. I've seen American cars mess up the simplest of things from brake pedal and seatbelt placement to rear brakes that wear out one pad every 10,000km Anything with apex seals is an instant flaw. (Glader and rotary engine alike). All those ZF trans that always **** their guts and are installed in copious Audi's and BMW's. Anything built by Maserati, Yugo, Lada, the Pontiac fiero, all pre-2003 ford explorer V6 transmissions. 

There was lots of worse crimes to the auto world then the VW crank gear/bolt design. And besides I know people with 16v and 8v cars that have never, ever had a crank bolt issue. It really seems to affect the G60 and diesels quite a bit more.


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## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

71norton said:


> Check the pully closely for cracks, it also is made of cheap steel.


 I think you mean the gear. 

I will repeat this point: no one who does the bolt correctly and pushes less than 300hp has ever had this problem, as far as I can tell. I am 100% sure that it is next to impossible to do this right without a counterhold tool and lubricating the bolt. I thought I had it on there really well from my last bolt change and I would say I had it on maybe 10% versus how it is now. Buy a counterhold tool and do it right. Let's see how many people with reasonable motors come back with horror stories after doing that; my money is on none.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Anyone have a source for a new crank cog and dampener? Our local dealers can't? source them; 

049 105 263C Cog 

037 105 243 Damper


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## yip (Jul 14, 2003)

TyrolSport said:


> Anyone have a source for a new crank cog and dampener? Our local dealers can't? source them;
> 
> 049 105 263C Cog
> 
> 037 105 243 Damper


 TT sells the timing sprocket/cog and I recommend using the ABA balancer since it's readily available and lighter than the PG one. 

http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_11_5_402&products_id=1032 

http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1760


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## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

yip said:


> TT sells the timing sprocket/cog and I recommend using the ABA balancer since it's readily available and lighter than the PG one.
> 
> http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_11_5_402&products_id=1032
> 
> http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1760


^ Exactly.

G60 specific balancer is like $600. Fiuck that!
TT got me mine for about $70


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## uberDB (Mar 31, 2014)

*flywheel lock*

great thread . . .thanks. . . helped me solve the mystery of ghost in the machine and intermittent diveability issues w/ car. I'm lucky the sprocket never shifted dramatically as there was NO key left . . just rust dust when i removed the sprocket . . . . Stock ABA 2.0 . . . curious what you fashioned for the homemade flywheel lock? I had a buddy stick a big screwdiver in the transmission bellhousing hole and was able to properly torque a new bolt and w/ a new sprocket before i found this fix and i'll be pinning/redoing very soon . . .but curios if you fashioned something that could be a one-man tool for when i redo? thanks!

surprise surprise . . . was shifting in and out of time on weekly basis









BIG chunk out of crank keyway . . . have to pin to keep sprocket in alignment . . .


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

if you can weld/fabricate a little bit, steal TT's design with a piece if 1/4" or thicker steel and some steel spacers (sold at bolt supply places)
or just buy it for $60
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/in...ucts_id=2028&zenid=ju9e7vj4sflm5j8qi8hjhvspf2


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## crazynorweegian (May 8, 2006)

G60 Carat said:


> if you can weld/fabricate a little bit, steal TT's design with a piece if 1/4" or thicker steel and some steel spacers (sold at bolt supply places)
> or just buy it for $60
> http://techtonicstuning.com/main/in...ucts_id=2028&zenid=ju9e7vj4sflm5j8qi8hjhvspf2


That is what I have. Worth every penny. Pretty well made, too. $60 is a bargain for it.


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## rabbitnothopper (Oct 19, 2009)

just to inform anyone here about a specification i noticed

superceeded crank bolts are all 12 point stretch

if you notice before 1984ish all are 6 point bolts, non stretch (reusable)
but you wont find any new ones

i think the bentley states not to reuse these bolts more than twice.
included are rod bolts which were not stretch in the earlier engines


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## imported (May 28, 2010)

I am wondering why it is common practice to pin the crank around the radius of the gear, instead of adding another dowel ? It would be easier to pin the crank on the car, however you could just as well dowel the crank on the opposite side (180 degree) of the factory dowel location ??

I am planning on adding this to my crank in the process of rebuilding my bottom end, and would like to get an opinion on the best method. 

This is a common fix on a Kick starter for a dirt bike/ motorcycle If you do not want to tear the bottom end to change the kick starter boss out. 

There are many advantages to adding a new keyway over pinning so i am just curious why it does not seem common practice ?
(specifically the amount of force a keyway can withstand over a pin due to more exposed surface area of the dowell, as well as the difference in applaction of the shear force on dowel Vs. Pin) 

Thanks all


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## 2-12 (Aug 22, 2014)

My gear spun within the first 500mi of owning my latest G60. I ordered several dowel pins, did some testing and found a really good style that met my needs. Some are too brittle, some are too soft, etc. I have several sets that I can send out to help other owners (you pay shipping) as they probably will never get used. Here is what I did, and it has held for several years. I've also met the limit with the G60 and still holding fine, Stage 5+ (highly recommend doing this even if your gear has not yet spun out) I can send out a few sets of what I have left over, just pm me with an address and a few bucks via paypal to cover shipping. 

_If you are not good with a drill, or your eyes are less than stellar go with smaller pins. Not much room for error with these!_


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## 134hpvw (Sep 6, 2013)

2-12 I am interested to see what you have for offer. I am building a 16vg60 motor for my Passat.

I have a friend that owns a cnc machine shop a couple of towns over. 
with that in mind.
would it be better off to have the snout of the crank modified to fit the mk4tdi sprocket on my motor or do the dowel pin option? 

I hope to run stock hp numbers on that 16vg60 so that is around 210 hp? maybe in the very distant future change it to turbo.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Mk4 TDi uses a larger diameter Bolt for cog.

FWIW: I logged over 60k miles on this original fix and still going w/o issue. I call that tried and true, if you follow my exact steps :laugh: 

For my 2020 build, I did use 2 pins from orig post, but mainly for balance (albeit a negligible effect that close to axis of rotation).


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