# 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be centered? how to do this?



## Tbird 1.8+ (Mar 2, 2003)

Since i got my 15" rims i put them on the car it pulled right quite bad and shook the car at low speed and high bad.
i swapped side to side now it did it going left opposite.
then i did fronts to backs . backs to fronts
now slow speed its fine no pull . high speed it pulls left a tad and it shakes the car at high speeds ...
now with aftermarket rims i was toldthe rims i got have no center rings- they dont need them or have no thing for them. but.. do these hahve to be centered on the hub? anyone have bbs or asa 15" rims? anyone know for sure? im assuming i have some bad tires on these but i heard maybe it aint centered. how to check?
or should they already be centered?








info appreciated..










[Modified by Tbird 1.8+, 8:53 PM 3-2-2003]


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Tbird 1.8+)*

you need hubcentric rings. the weight of your car rests in those rings that rest on the wheel. The lugs are only there to hold the wheels to the hubs. Stop driving your car that way. You might get pretty fudgeed up if something goes wrong.


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Tbird 1.8+)*

here is a bump and go to the wheel and tire forum to learn how to remedy this problem.


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## PerfectGLi (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

I dont have hubcentric rings (I dont think at least). I just line the lug holes up and put the wheels on.


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (PerfectGLi)*

thats not a good thing your perfect GLI is gonna be perfectly ruined one day. if you can put your wheel on and it stays without lugs then you are OK, If not get some rings.


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## quazar311 (Jun 15, 2000)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Tbird 1.8+)*

you can run wheels without centering ring.. you just have to becareful when mounting.. basically..what i do is that i start by putting the wheel on the hub.. then holding the wheel.. place your lugstuds into the threads by only a few threads.. now the wheel is essentially resting on the studs. now slowly turn the lugnuts with a wrench... 5-6 360 degree turns at a time on each.. rotating in the proper tightening order for lugnuts. soon you will have tightened all the lugnuts, then torque them down. 
okay.. so the point is.. what did you accomplish here? its easy.. you use the taper of the lugnuts to help center the wheel on the hub. by slowly tightening each lugnut only a few turns at a time while rotating.. you're allowing the taper on the lugnuts to help seat the wheel. 


[Modified by quazar311, 1:12 AM 3-3-2003]


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## PDXGTI8V (Jan 11, 2003)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

definitely! after having 5 different sets of wheels on my 91 GTI, i learned that ya absolutely need to have those hubcentric rings...when i first tried new wheels without them, i had aweful high frequency vibration, it totally sucked. got the hubcentrics, smooth as a babies b*tt. though with such an hard pull to the left or right depending on which side that wheel is mounted, it sounds more like a really bent wheel....again, my 2 cents worth....


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## negativl (Oct 24, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (PDXGTI8V)*

you can buy hubcentric adapters. One of the few spacer applications I don't entirely cringe away from. Just don't get them too thick.


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (quazar311)*

quazar311
that is just plain unsafe advice. this is a vehicle that is over a ton. mass times velocity. I hate to tell people how foolish they are. But lets face it. This guy is hauling his LIFE in this vehicle. And youa are telling him how to have his wheels fall off. Damnit! why are people so stupid to think that they know more than the engineers who create this stuff.


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## PerfectGLi (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

Okay, hold the phone. What did my car come from the factory with?


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## Ben. (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (PerfectGLi)*

Where can you buy hubcentric rings? I have BBS RX's which didn't have them, so I just whipped some up out of billet


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## PDXGTI8V (Jan 11, 2003)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (PerfectGLi)*

your car came from the factory with BBS 15 alloy wheels, if im not mistaken... and if your car has the original factory BBS wheels, they wont have hubcentric rings because the wheels themselves are designed for you vehicle and is made with the correct hub size molded into the wheel, hence no need for hubcentric rings....


[Modified by PDXGTI8V, 1:36 AM 3-3-2003]


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## PDXGTI8V (Jan 11, 2003)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (vduBen)*

call tire rack and ask them about getting you some hubcentric rings...they are the direct BBS importer for the US, i think, either way, theyll probably have the rings in stock for you.....


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## OZ jetta (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Tbird 1.8+)*

what the heck? I have OZ superleggera's and i got them from tirerack. I didn't need to use any hubcentric rings


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## vwtoys (Mar 31, 1999)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (OZ jetta)*

The lug bolts apply clamping force to clamp the wheel to the hub. On our cars they're not designed to take the lateral loads, so do what the engineers designed in the first place and get hubcentric rings, transferring the load to the hub and relieving the load off of the threads, 57.1mm for our cars i believe. Hope that makes some sense.








edit: clarified wording


[Modified by vwtoys, 7:32 AM 3-3-2003]


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## blown_sixdub (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (vwtoys)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The lug bolts apply clamping force to clamp the wheel to the hub. On our cars they're not designed to take the lateral loads, so do what the engineers designed in the first place and get hubcentric rings, transferring the load to the hub and relieving the load off of the threads, 57.1mm for our cars i believe. Hope that makes some sense.







[Modified by vwtoys, 7:32 AM 3-3-2003][HR][/HR]​WRONG. There is little to no force transferred between the center of the wheel and the extended lip on the wheel hub. The support for the wheel comes from the clamping pressure and resulting friction force between the hub/rotor face and the wheel mounting face. The lug bolts, when properly torqued, are designed provide sufficient pressure at that interface. Look at the wall thickness at the hub and on the inside of certain wheels. They are not designed to be load carrying members. "hubcentric" refers to the hub being concentric with the wheel and coaxial as well as the sole means of ensuring concentricity. Many hubcentric rings are nylon or some other thermoplastic. You trusting your life to nylon? I think not.
Lugcentric wheels and axles exist as well, although not very common.
you can run without hubcentric rings if, as QUAZAR stated above, you systematically torque your lug studs. You may never be able to get a smooth ride depending on the quality of the wheel machining. It is not a safety hazard. 
Ask me how I know. 


[Modified by blown_sixdub, 3:50 PM 3-3-2003]


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## quazar311 (Jun 15, 2000)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (blown_sixdub)*

VAGaddict.
Please take a gander at Blown_Sixdub's reply.
I felt that you probably wouldn't listen to my rebuttal. 
I had to get an engineer to defend myself on your personal attacks of my intelligence. 
Please do not attack my intelligence and credibility when you think you know something, make sure you know it first and then we'll debate it. 
Calling me stupid, saying that I'm threatening peoples lives, causing their wheels to fall off and then saying Damnit isn't much of a reply.
This started as a simple reply to Tbird's post of :
15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be centered? *how to do this?* 
I told him a way to do it. If I knew it was unsafe, I sure as hell wouldn't reply an unsafe response. I made a reply upon my experience from working in a high performance tirestore. 
http://www.butlertire.com/ 
I'm not saying that I know more than an engineer, but I know some of the things that engineers know. 
And running wheels without hubcentric rings is one of them.
Awaiting your response. 
Eugene <--- not an engineer


[Modified by quazar311, 11:21 AM 3-3-2003]


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## vwtoys (Mar 31, 1999)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (blown_sixdub)*

ouch. hmm, i stand corrected. 
BUT, according the RONAL wheels, here's their take on "Hubcentric" wheels.
quote:[HR][/HR]
"Hubcentric" is another term that is often not mentioned or is misunderstood. A hubcentric wheel is a wheel designed with a centerbore opening to match the exact diameter of the hub of a specific vehicle. The importance is that the weight bearing of the wheel, in reference to the vehicle, is accomplished by the hub and centerbore mating to an exact fit. *The lug nuts/bolts' only purpose is to affix the wheel to the mounting surface, not to bear the weight of the vehicle.* Often wheels that are not hubcentric create driveability problems--shimmy, vibration, and erratic tracking. Many quality manufacturers design their wheels to be versatile by providing hubcentric centering rings that snap into place inside the wheel, to make the wheel hubcentric. This is an important safety issue--hubcentricity is highly recommended.
[HR][/HR]​http://www.ronalusa.com/choose.html
I would trust a wheel manufacturer in this instance.








Also, from the Tirerack:
quote:[HR][/HR]
The centerbore of a wheel is the size of the machined hole on the back of the wheel that centers the wheel properly on the hub of the car. This hole is machined to exactly match the hub so the wheels are precisely positioned, minimizing the chance of a vibration. *With a hubcentric wheel, the lug hardware will not be supporting the weight of the vehicle, all they really do is press the wheel against the hub of the car.* Some wheels use high quality, forged centering rings that lock into place in the back of the wheel. This is acceptable alternative.
If you have non-hubcentric (lugcentric) wheels, they should be torqued correctly while the vehicle is still off of the ground so they center properly. The weight of the vehicle can push the wheel off-center slightly while you're tightening them down if left on the ground
[HR][/HR]​http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/centerb.htm
I hope this clear things up.







comb



[Modified by vwtoys, 8:30 AM 3-3-2003]


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## blown_sixdub (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (vwtoys)*

i am sorry to say both the ronal and tire rack sites are providing inaccurate information . . . 
A wheel would have to be press fit onto a hub and have a much larger contact area if it had any hopes of supporting 1000+ lbs. 
I can't believe a large wheel manufacturer and a large distributor would have the public believe otherwise.


[Modified by blown_sixdub, 4:39 PM 3-3-2003]


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## BenMSki (Nov 30, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (blown_sixdub)*

here's a question....do lugs have to be torqued properly in all cases?


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (96Passat2.0)*

always use a torque wrench for your wheels. Impact guns are just to get the bolt started and semi tight, the torque wrench is used afterwards.


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## Ben. (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (blown_sixdub)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i am sorry to say both the ronal and tire rack sites are providing inaccurate information . . . 
A wheel would have to be press fit onto a hub and have a much larger contact area if it had any hopes of supporting 1000+ lbs. 
I can't believe a large wheel manufacturer and a large distributor would have the public believe otherwise.[HR][/HR]​First of all, why would each have to support 1000+ lbs. when our cars only weigh ~2300 or 2400 lbs? Second of all, what experience do you have that would lead me to believe you over Tirerack or Ronal (I'm not trying to flame, just asking).


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## bpfoley (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (mrkrad)*

you NEED hubcentric rings. I speak from experience. i have konig wheels and they were installed on my car without the hubcentric rings by the PO, result: wheel vibrations very pronounced in the steering wheel, driving at 60mph+ was unpredictable and hard to control (steering wheel vibrations extremely high). the car was aligned several times and still pulled, wheels were balanced too.
called konig and bought proper rings and everything went away, car drives smooth and tracks straight. felt like a new car.
so who cares about this useless argument, buy the rings tbird...$15 max from the manufacturer. theory is fun but truth is better.


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## vwtoys (Mar 31, 1999)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (bpfoley)*

sorry for opening this















get the rings alan.


[Modified by vwtoys, 10:22 AM 3-3-2003]


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## blown_sixdub (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (vduBen)*

quote:[HR][/HR]first of all, why would each have to support 1000+ lbs. when our cars only weigh ~2300 or 2400 lbs?[HR][/HR]​2300lbs is just the static weight of the car at rest. There are much higher loads imposed on a wheel during operation i.e. braking, cornering, pot holes. Take a second to think about how force is transfered from the axle or the brake rotor to the tire contact patch. What ever transfers that force is the same component that supports the weight of the car. . . . enter jeopardy music . . .
quote:[HR][/HR] Second of all, what experience do you have that would lead me to believe you over Tirerack or Ronal (I'm not trying to flame, just asking).[HR][/HR]​Mostly, I will say my experience as a VW enthusiast, VW racecar builder, and aftermarket wheel dealer. 
I'll also toss in my degree in Mechanical Engineering from Ga Tech and 5 yrs experience building winning formula racecar brake/drivetrain components including a set of 13" carbon fiber wheels from scratch.
Guys, don't get me wrong, hubcentric rings are useful and in some applications necessary to correctly align the axle axis and wheel axis to eliminate force variations (vibration). THEY DO NOT SUPPORT LOAD, that is the point I've been trying to make.


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (quazar311)*

Quazar311

I feel that you are 100% correct in the point that I should have not attacked you with the word "Stupid". For that I admit that I was way out of line.
As far as wheel mounting. If the the aftermarket cannot or will not design a wheel that fits the vehicle as a stock wheel would then I would not do business with them. So why is that nice shoulder on the hub? It looks to me that the wheel is supposed to meet with that. Yet another point of support for the wheel. Infact... sometimes when removing a wheel I have noticed that the wheel gets stuck on this part. I still feel that you are endangering somone elses life when you tell them that this part is not necssary. If you choose to endanger your life thats your business. But its shameful to tell someone who is searching for accurate information that these parts are not necessary. Lets all go out and get some plasma cutters and shave the shoulders off of our hubs. Now we have lost some rotational, and reciprocating mass. I have had ONLY Audis and Volkswagens ALL my life. And it is rather strange that EVERY OEM wheel fit the same. Right on that nice shoulder. Are they adding these hubcentric rings because they want additional weight or parts to charge you for? Or was it becasue they were bored and wanted to play a joke millions of times?
And unless Blown_sixdub is a Volkswagen Engineer.....that persons post supports nothing as far as I am concerned.
Once again I appologize for my hostility. But nobody on the vortex has the mass of intelligence or engineering excellence that Volkswagen has. Nobody! Thats why we are where we are in life and VOLKSWAGEN is such a huge success.
And as far as listening to your rebuttal. Of course I will listen. you need not hide behind someone else. And IF you could prove me wrong about this wheel fittment issue, then I would gladly step down and pay to you the respects that would be due.


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## 3WheelGTi (Aug 30, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

Ahh...he's back!!


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## blown_sixdub (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

quote:[HR][/HR] So why is that nice shoulder on the hub? It looks to me that the wheel is supposed to meet with that. Yet another point of support for the wheel. Infact... sometimes when removing a wheel I have noticed that the wheel gets stuck on this part. [HR][/HR]​The wheel is indeed designed to meet the hub shoulder. It is for alignment purposes only. Go look up concentric. And, while you're on a thinking logically spree, take some time to measure the hub diameter and the wheel center bore. Unless they are exactly the same diameter, I mean within .001", then there is NO WAY the wheel can transmit any force to the hub via that surface. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
And unless Blown_sixdub is a Volkswagen Engineer.....that persons post supports nothing as far as I am concerned . . .nobody on the vortex has the mass of intelligence or engineering excellence that Volkswagen has. Nobody! Thats why we are where we are in life and VOLKSWAGEN is such a huge success.
[HR][/HR]​Hubcentric is no engineering feat. You are making quite a bold statement. It only takes COMMON SENSE to see what does what on a machine as simple as an automobile. Come to my work and see what I design for a living . . .


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## blkaudicq (Oct 22, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

quote:[HR][/HR] Infact... sometimes when removing a wheel I have noticed that the wheel gets stuck on this part. I still feel that you are endangering somone elses life when you tell them that this part is not necssary. [HR][/HR]​Just an idea, not to argue, but the oxidation between the wheel and the hub is probably what caused the sticking. That is why you should sand and smooth the mounting surfaces on the wheels and the hubs when the wheels are off the car.
Also, I just installed a new set of TSW wheels yesterday. They came with hubcentric rings (aluminum) that I installed on the wheels. The fit very tightly on the wheel (had to tap them in with rubber mallet) and snugly on the hub (could slide them on and pull them off, little to no play once on the hub). I am getting some vibrations, mostly between 55-65mph. Today I am replacing a front wheel bearing (could that be the source?) and I was planning on loosening and retightening my wheels, hopping to stop the vibrations.


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (blown_sixdub)*

Common sense? It appears to me that common sense is uncommon. Common sense would say that when
changing lanes use your directional signals. 
When it gets dark out turn on your lights.
When your tires are bald stay out of the snow.
when the red and blue lights are flashing.. STOP!
Common sense is one of those abused terms like the constant misuse of the word ignorant.
Common sense would also say that its obvious that I am not an engineer so why are you talking ot me like I am one? I am simply stating that Volkswagen put inplace the parts that are in our best interests. Not everyone is an engineer.
quote:[HR][/HR]Come to my work and see what I design for a living . .[HR][/HR]​Do you design cars for a car company that services the world?
I once read a signature that stated somthing to the effect of 
"where you work has nothing to do with what you know. I work at NASA as a janitor do you want me to tell you how to build rockets?"
I am not questioning that you are an engineer or not. Nor am i saying that you are a good engineer or a bad one. 
quote:[HR][/HR]And, while you're on a thinking logically spree,[HR][/HR]​what is that all about? 
Becasue I discounted your alleged expertise?


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (blkaudicq)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Just an idea, not to argue, but the oxidation between the wheel and the hub is probably what caused the sticking. That is why you should sand and smooth the mounting surfaces on the wheels and the hubs when the wheels are off the car.[HR][/HR]​What are you suggesting is oxidizing? The wheel to the rotor? If thats the case I am talking about the point when the wheel is clearly away from the rotor and i still have to work the wheel off the hub. I will check for oxidation. Perhaps I overlooked that.


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## blown_sixdub (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Common sense? It appears to me that common sense is uncommon. [HR][/HR]​ In this case, you would be correct
quote:[HR][/HR] Common sense would also say that its obvious that I am not an engineer so why are you talking ot me like I am one? [HR][/HR]​ You incorrectly answered a question for T-Bird based on how you thought things work. I am trying to educate those who may be reading this thread about how things actually work in this case.
quote:[HR][/HR] I am simply stating that Volkswagen put inplace the parts that are in our best interests.[HR][/HR]​ Work as engineer with bean counters and you will gain firsthand knowledge of how companies work and what is in your best interest.
quote:[HR][/HR] not everyone is an engineer. [HR][/HR]​I know, not everyone is that lucky . . .
quote:[HR][/HR] Do you design cars for a car company that services the world? [HR][/HR]​ What does designing cars have to do with this simple engineering scenario?
Automotive engineering is the combination of basic principles used to create just one type of machine 
quote:[HR][/HR]I once read a signature that stated somthing to the effect of 
"where you work has nothing to do with what you know. I work at NASA as a janitor do you want me to tell you how to build rockets?"[HR][/HR]​ I said come see what *I* design. If you wanna sweep floors and learn something, we do have an opening.
quote:[HR][/HR] "And, while you're on a thinking logically spree"
what is that all about? 
Becasue I discounted your alleged expertise?
[HR][/HR]​ Not at all. It is just a kick to get you thinking about how things really work. There are 1000 different ways to design wheel/hub interfaces. VW chose one way. Doesn't make it the best or worst. Just because I, an educated, experienced person, am not on VWs payroll doesn't mean I am not qualified to educate you on how things really work. Its all about educating the kids!


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (blown_sixdub)*

WOW man you are really stuck on yourself. I am so honored that GOD chose YOU to educate us ignorant folks. I really feel blessed. What have I done to deserve this great gift of being in the graces of such engineering omniscience. It is clear that you are very closed-minded and convinced of your own greatness. How do you get in your house at night? Did you engineer a larger door opening for your inflated ego? Where does your wife sleep? Probably another room cuz your ego is so monsterous that the entire Cali King is consumed by your greatness. Keep educatin us kids oh great one. With out you we would surely perish. And to the original question...... I would ride the coat tails of a reliable and honorable engineering firm that designed and engineered your car. Volkswagen
Infact everyone bore out those nasty rings. blown_sixdub said we dont NEED them.
As I exit badly beaten and profusely bleeding by the merciless sword of his Excellence, I bow in acceptance to the Master of All that is Engineered...... our gift from the heavens.....blown_sixdub.
..........As VAGaddict painfully struggled to pull his now mutilated and dying corpse from the sight of his Highness, VAGaddict was executed by the seeming worthless hubcentric rings that plauged his Volkswagen..........
And in fear the commoners bowed down to his excellence and begged that thier lives be spared.
(Damn I love DRAMA!!!!!!)
HA HA HA HAH AH HA HAH


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## PDXGTI8V (Jan 11, 2003)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (OZ jetta)*

your OZ's may be hubcentric already, made to the correct size for a VW hub, these rings are only needed if the wheel hub size is bigger than 57mm......


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## PDXGTI8V (Jan 11, 2003)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

wow!!!!! this thread suddenly became insane!!!!!! hey everyone, we're all friends here....want to use hubcentric rings, cool.....dont want to use them...cool. remember, lets DEBATE, not personally attack other peoples ideas and opinions....awesome thread though....really.....maybe you two should thumb wrestle over it, or something.....














sorry, my attempt at lightening an ugly situation....


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## Vdubs (May 16, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (PDXGTI8V)*

The hub center does not support anything unless the wheel nuts are loose. The bolt (basically all bolts) create a friction on the surface they hold, the bolt like the hub center doesn't hold the weight of the car, the bolts are in tension and are not subjected to a shear force due to the friction of the wheel to hub. 
Not all wheels are hub aligned, early VW's weren't and they are a pain to fit as a result but that's all.


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## blown_sixdub (Dec 18, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

VAGaddict, I did not attack you. Your hostility is unfounded. I welcome you to email me if you have any more questions.
quote:[HR][/HR]WOW man you are really stuck on yourself. I am so honored that GOD chose YOU to educate us ignorant folks. I really feel blessed. What have I done to deserve this great gift of being in the graces of such engineering omniscience. [HR][/HR]​If I believed in god, then I guess I would feel honored. Thank you for using ignorant correctly. I hope other people may have learned something useful from this thread after wading through all the useless junk
quote:[HR][/HR]It is clear that you are very closed-minded and convinced of your own greatness. . .[HR][/HR]​I was asked direct questions and gave direct answers. I merely stated fact, sorry it is hard for you to accept.

Long story short and a reiteration of the fact I stated earlier and Vdubs







knows as well; hubcentric rings/bores are not load bearing items, merely alignment assitance devices. 

T-Bird, I hope you got the answer you were looking for.



[Modified by blown_sixdub, 3:09 AM 3-4-2003]


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

quote:[HR][/HR]And unless Blown_sixdub is a Volkswagen Engineer.....that persons post supports nothing as far as I am concerned.[HR][/HR]​An engineer is simply someone that has studied and completed a required course of study at a college or university that qualifies them as an engineer. A Volkswagen Engineer is just one of those people that is employed at Volkswagen. Furthermore, if you want to argue with a qualified engineer about sematics of a wheel/hub interface, then pull out your engineering credentials to support your position. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
Once again I appologize for my hostility. But nobody on the vortex has the mass of intelligence or engineering excellence that Volkswagen has. Nobody! Thats why we are where we are in life and VOLKSWAGEN is such a huge success.
[HR][/HR]​No one person could retain as much knowledge that all the engineers at Volkswagen have collectively, so your statement is quite redundant. 
quote:[HR][/HR]
And as far as listening to your rebuttal. Of course I will listen. you need not hide behind someone else. And IF you could prove me wrong about this wheel fittment issue, then I would gladly step down and pay to you the respects that would be due.[HR][/HR]​You have been proven wrong about hubcentric rings and their load bearing capacity. Common sense should tell you that a ring of plastic will not endure the loads associated with an automotive wheel. A good anology would be from large structural steel design. Nylon guide pins are often used to align two pieces of steel before the bolts are fastened. These guide pins are strong enough to support the wieght load of the steel, but not any external loads that the steel will support. Next time you set foot in a high rise building, ask yourself if your weight is being carried by a one inch pieces of nylon rod or the friction force exerted by five one inch pices of threaded rod at each column/girder intersection.


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (130_R)*

And where is this PROOF that you speak of? did I read past it?

I will say this. PDX is right.
And I dont understand how my statement is redundant.
No i dont any engineering credentials. Nor did I say that I did.
Prove it and as I said earlier... I would gladly step down and pay respects for accurate knowledge.


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

I have read and re-read this thread and still have not seen the proof. I see my hostility and the pompous behavior of the engineer. This is not a question of who is right but WHAT is right. For my hostility I do appoligize. I would be a fool to accept the "word" of someone who claims to state facts. Perhaps what the engineer stated is fact. Where is the proof? 
I feel that this is a safety issue and the parts that Volkswagen has installed on our cars are necessary. Notice that I said "I feel" I didnt state it as fact. 
I do think that my short story was pretty comical. 
So where is the proof? not who is right or wrong but WHAT is right? Just so that I can KNOW and not continue believing what I think is ture or false. I wanna know the facts.


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## Vdubs (May 16, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (VAGaddict)*

I told you the facts, you need to look into how a bolt works and what the relationships are between sheer, tensile and compressive forces, basic information of fasteners will explain the theory behind the wheel bolt (any bolt).
http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed...dmqh0wIpdad6LbmodOvK5YN33pMzW6jx:&terms=bolts
Have a look through that site.


[Modified by Vdubs, 6:15 AM 3-4-2003]


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## quazar311 (Jun 15, 2000)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Vdubs)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The hub center does not support anything unless the wheel nuts are loose. The bolt (basically all bolts) create a friction on the surface they hold, the bolt like the hub center doesn't hold the weight of the car, the bolts are in tension and are not subjected to a shear force due to the friction of the wheel to hub. 
Not all wheels are hub aligned, early VW's weren't and they are a pain to fit as a result but that's all.

[HR][/HR]​
OMG.. thats what we've all been saying all along. finally another person that understands whats going on. 

Sorry about the late reply, been at work all day. 
VAGaddict, I totally accept your apology. I don't have any hard feelings. Like I said, this should just be a very good debate and I think it is. 
Please don't think that I'm hiding behind someone to help prove my point. Like I said earlier, I'm not an engineer, I couldn't tell you why you don't have to have hubcentric rings from an engineering standpooint, but I know why and I know that you can run without them.. SAFELY. I just wanted an opinion of a realitively qualified engineer. 
If you need to know Blown_Sixdub's experience, go to Ga Tech for a few years in ME, join Georgia Tech Motorsports FSAE team while you're there for the duration http://www.me.gatech.edu/gtmotorsports , race competitively for a while in SCCA Pro Racing, work in a tireshop for a few years, autoparts place, and a Engineering firm that has many govt. contracts and private contracts in the position of one of the lead engineers for projects. 
Granted this is not 40-50 years of engineering experience, or working for any car manufacturer. But you can't really argue with the basics of how things work. Its gonna be the same, no matter what. 
Honestly. Like a few have said on this thread, Hubcentric rings are not major load bearing items of a rotating wheel assembly. They are there to just assist the alignment of the wheel and hub. Thats what I've known. 
If you want to eliminate all vibrations of wheel to car reference, then have your wheels press fitted onto your hubs at about 1200 psi. Even then, you'll still have to deal with the tires that might be out of round, out of balance or just molded untrue, aka runout. 
Until someone has the resources, time, and money to devote to having their cars ride PERFECTLY smooth. I'll stick with the hubcentric rings, or if I don't have any I'll just rely on my old process. 
It works fine for me and many other people who don't have wheels fall off. 
BTW. Most of the times when aftermarket wheels fall off are due to three major factors. 
1. Under torquing of lugnut/stud(s)
2. Wheel was not put on straight in respect to the plane of the rotor 
surface and wheel surface.
3. Fitament of improper lugnuts to the wheel. ie Using a ball seat lugnut on a taper seat wheel or vice versa. 
Thanks for your time. 
Eugene.


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## Broke (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (quazar311)*

What is it with his threads? They more often than not manage to do this








Anyway, wheels are held on magnetically








Nah...the hubcentric ring doesn't support, but centers. Mine are snuggish, so it centers the wheels perfectly, and the lug bolts spin right in by hand (Broke chased them all with 12x1.50 tap







) 
For like $8 for some rings, just use them if you need them. You need them if there is any gap between your hub and wheel....pretty simple. Just makes life easier using them. Cheap, easy and works...no brainer








Broke


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## svart (Sep 29, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Broke)*

well, now that i've settled down from laughing at the name calling and subsequent reversal of attitudes, I think i'll toss in my 2 cents. I'm new to the VW brand in general but have worked on dozens of older V8 cars/trucks/vans. I don't have a degree in engineering, by choice, but I can tell you that I have had engineers working for ME. Right now i have 5 cars in my garage and driveway. ONE of which has HUBCENTRIC rims with PLASTIC centering rings. The rest have LUGCENTRIC rims. one of these cars, my 67 mercury cougar, has DUAL PATTERN oblong holes for the studs to come through. the outer portion of the hole fits a small chevy pattern and the inner portion of the hole fits a standard ford/mopar pattern. these wheels are chromed stamped steel about 1/4 inch thick. the central hole in the rim through which the front hub extends has a 3/16 gap all the way around the hub. where are my hubcentric rings? cragar never made any for this wheel. the lugnuts have small bevels in them to center the wheel between the studs. this car weighs 3200 lbs. been driving it like a racecar for 6 years with no issues. Another project of mine, an 80 model ford Crustang street racer with a 400hp 351w, has 13 inch front discs and 12 inch rears with 99 cobra rims. these rims have milled out recesses for the sealed bearing hubs i run, but they don't touch the hubs at all. now i can talk physics and with anyone here if they wish, but plain and simple the friction of the two flat surfaces of the wheel and the hub are more than enough to hold the weigh of a car when your lugs are tightened as folks have stated here before.


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## sir rocco 16v (Sep 30, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (PDXGTI8V)*

heres an idea T-bird go out and get yourself some hub centric rings there about $5.00 to $7.00 a piece if they don't work when you put them on then take your wheels pile them up and burn the [email protected]&erfu%*ers then if that doesn't solve your problem sell your vw!!!!Damn i wonder where all this genius was when i asked about hub-centric rings for the wheels that are 67mm in centerbore when i need 57.1 centerbore.


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## H2Only (May 15, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Tbird 1.8+)*

you need hubcentric rings, tirerack sells them (plastic) I had the local machine shop make some to my specs out of a billet of alum. but it cost over $100.00


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## VAGaddict (Feb 16, 2002)

*Re: 15" rim question.. no center rings but do they havhe to be cent ... (Tbird 1.8+)*

I am posting here to apologize for being a real menace to anything constructive. My behavior was not at all necessary and was uncalled for. Quazar311 and Blown_sixdub I formally appoligize for the insults and disrespect that I wrongly paid to the two of you. I still think the lil drama scene was kinda funny. but all in all I will get what I deserve. Peace To Everyone!


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