# Show me your VR6 short runner intakes



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

I'm looking into getting a short running for my VRT, im just not too sure on which one to lean toward yet.
i have a mk2 so posting some short runners on mk2s would help, but i dont mind mk3s, mk4s.
Mk2s would give me a good idea on which ones will fit, and which ones will needs modification.
Feel free to post your short runner here
what kind, how do you like it, if it works well, if you made it yourself.
Here is my mk2 VR for clicks









thanks


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## Flyweight (Jan 15, 2007)

I really hope that someone does a short runner comparison complete with dynos. That would be a great help to the community.


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Flyweight)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flyweight* »_I really hope that someone does a short runner comparison complete with dynos. That would be a great help to the community. 

OEM lenght out of head is 220mm ~
If you go shorter then 140mm = you lose power over the entire powerband.
If you dont make stagerd lenght = you lose power over the entire powerband
So ALLA aftermarket that are not custom = Crap
This "short runner" word needs to die out.


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## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

Here's what I have on my MK4 VR6. It's not a VRT but it does have a 
Schimmel short runner. This is no intercooler. I think the SP goes a long way in keeping everything cool. Hope this inspires you. I believe that a short runner is the way to go in any forced induction set-up, whether it is a turbo or supercharger. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (groupracer)*

That SP intake is perfect example how to *NOT *design the intake.








That give huge loss over the entire powerband with those short runners and removed runner compensation








This runner is tuned for 8000rpm with 264* cams 1mm OEM plus port size









SP is tuned for 14000?











_Modified by [email protected] at 10:06 AM 12-27-2008_


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## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_That SP intake is perfect example how to *NOT *design the intake.








That give huge loss over the entire powerband with those short runners and removed runner compensation








_Modified by [email protected] at 10:06 AM 12-27-2008_

What about the Flipside Customs Intake?


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (vr6_Love)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6_Love* »_
What about the Flipside Customs Intake? 









Better lenght but no runner compensation and very small plenum/plneum without any tappering to the last cylinder.


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## e[email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

Flipside intake manis don't make any power anywhere in the rpm band and lose power below 4k rpms. The only thing it will help with is better throttle body placement and a torque curve that is a lot easier on the tranny.
Very similar setup. Dark blue is stock intake mani, other is flipside.


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Flipside intake manis don't make any power anywhere in the rpm band and lose power below 4k rpms. The only thing it will help with is better throttle body placement and a torque curve that is a lot easier on the tranny.
Very similar setup. Dark blue is stock intake mani, other is flipside.









I think that you shall keep the OEM many until yo cant fit the turbo under it.
Aftar that you need to make a mani for you concept.
Wanna have max power then you need to do it right.

Most guys here ad 700hp turbo to 8-18psi cars


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

Foffa is on to the right idea, however a proper plenum would need to be 40-50% larger than the total engine cubic inches, smooth runner entry (Foffa's pic shows a good example of that), and of course on our engines, equal length runners. 
The equal runner length is tough to accomplish in such a short amount of space as the trumpets impede the physical volume available by sticking theirselves so far into the plenum. Also, the further the trumpets stick out, the more eddies and low pressure zones are created. The idea, atleast in my opinion, is to have the trumpet's face smoothly integrated on the plenum floor for smooth entry and no long port sticking out to impede flow and pressure. 
With that said, my intake is a piss-poor design but it was a great "value." I will make a better one later. Perhaps next season. I just want to get mine running now.








Foffa- Do you have any more pics of your intake? Any finished pics?
Here's mine.


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Weiss)*

Nice thing about the high quality stacks is that they can be as far in as you want in the plenum.
It wont hurt flow.
But be sure to have atleast same area as the trumpet in front of the inlet.
i have atleast 3 inch infront of every stack.


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## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

SP Short runner works for me


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## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Radostormvr6)*

Heres my Dyno Sheet


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Radostormvr6)*

not ideal. but not lots of room to work with on a mk2.
the runner compensation is built in to the cams


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (TBT-Syncro)*

Wouldn't mind seeing some back to back dynos w/ stock manifold vs. short runner. Most of what I've seen is just a decrease in torque which does have a value especially at higher power levels.
For a budget minded 10-20psi setup I couldn't justify ~$1200 or even $500 for just TB placement. The car wouldn't have been any faster IMO. Add the cost of electric fans, a proper fuel rail/regulator, TB elbow (if needed) and it gets real expensive.
I'm still open minded about them. I just need to see more. I've seen cars make crazy power w/ them but they also had huge turbos, ported heads, larger valves, cams, etc. Whose to say what they would have done w/ a stock mani?


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_Wouldn't mind seeing some back to back dynos w/ stock manifold vs. short runner. Most of what I've seen is just a decrease in torque which does have a value especially at higher power levels.
For a budget minded 10-20psi setup I couldn't justify ~$1200 or even $500 for just TB placement. The car wouldn't have been any faster IMO. Add the cost of electric fans, a proper fuel rail/regulator, TB elbow (if needed) and it gets real expensive.
I'm still open minded about them. I just need to see more. I've seen cars make crazy power w/ them but they also had huge turbos, ported heads, larger valves, cams, etc. Whose to say what they would have done w/ a stock mani?

I think this is the best example.
My overlay
Short runner 2.8L Gt35 82mm compressor OEM cams
vs 
Correct runner 2.3L Gt30 76mm compressor. 264* cams
The powerband gets so much broader.
Even with my high dur cams i got same off boost power and more top en power.


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Your motor is multivalve correct?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

Thanks, but that's a different motor, different turbo, different cams, different car,etc. Kind of hard to compare.
Anyone have a pre and post short runner dyno?


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (.therealvrt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.therealvrt* »_Your motor is multivalve correct?

mechanicly identical to 12v vr6
I think that we have a good comparision.
Correct tuned intake will give you a 2.3L that perform like a 2.8L

But look at the OEM VS that horrible little but yet longer runner in the dyno above and its clear that 2.8L OEM long staggerd runner and 248* cams is even better down low at 4000rpm.
And show what the 2.8 should perform at that rpm

Dark blue is stock intake mani, other is flipside.









Pumping out 
OEM intake OEM 248* *2.8L* 225whp at 4k
Foffa intake foffa cams *2.3L *200whp at 4k
Flipside crap OEM cams *2.8L* 150whp at 4k
So flipside lost 100Hp at 4000rpm ...great product



















_Modified by [email protected] at 8:06 AM 12-29-2008_


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## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Only problem with stock manifold is long route of piping from Turbo to cooler then to TB, My setup with Schimmel s/runner and cooler is only 0.25 boost drop, im making near 380lbft at 3000rpm


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_Only problem with stock manifold is long route of piping from Turbo to cooler then to TB, My setup with Schimmel s/runner and cooler is only 0.25 boost drop, im making near 380lbft at 3000rpm

That short difference in piping should not have either pressure drop or drop in power.
The turbo push 896.6cubic foot per minute at WOT and 7k so its negecable.
http://www.rri.se did som test with crazy long test tubes in the bench.
Info is under the "white paper"
The powerloss with schimmel is huge due to the short runners.
Its even more then the 75whp that flipside lost











_Modified by [email protected] at 9:05 AM 12-29-2008_


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## 92g60gti (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*









There's a C2 Quickflow on my car. You could probably get away with just taking the lip that sticks out on the rad support and not notching it like i did if you are running delrin mounts. However i was only running poly mounts when i had originally notched it. I wanted to be sure i wasnt going to have any clearance issues under hard downshifts. You will also have to run an aftermarket fan setup with one of these mani's also. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (92g60gti)*

Runner compensation? I though that was taken care with the 12V's port design? Looking at a stock manifold there is not any magical design to it.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_Only problem with stock manifold is long route of piping from Turbo to cooler then to TB, My setup with Schimmel s/runner and cooler is only 0.25 boost drop, im making near 380lbft at 3000rpm

Nice setup by the way.








Here's the way I looked at it. That Schimmel SRI and AWIC setup you have including the fans, fuel rail stuff etc. is what? $3k-$3.5k? That's about the price of my entire setup. My stock manifold is free, stock fans are free, and my entire IC setup was under $300. I can make 400whp with all of that stuff. It's been done. I still don't see what the $3500 get's you. 
If you got it, knock yourself out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You also had to do ZERO cutting which is worth something. For anyone trying to go fast/ make power on a budget those pieces just don't make the cut IMO.


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## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*

Schimmel has well tested this stuff and know a thing or to, and how come theres so many people using them.
Biggest problem with standard manifold is heat soak
SHORT RUNNER
TB is in a better place, not on top of a hot exhaust manifold, you get better throttle responce , less pipe work , cooler is still cool to touch after been in traffic for 30 mins. Its worth changing the fans just for the weight saving


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## vr6chris (May 26, 2003)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*

ive been running the schimmel short runner and im verry happy with it. i still use the stock fans and the rad support hasnt been touched.


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## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (vr6chris)*

if only those Shimmels were a tad bit cheaper.
the price on that manifold is ridiculous...


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_Schimmel has well tested this stuff and know a thing or to, and how come theres so many people using them.
Biggest problem with standard manifold is heat soak
SHORT RUNNER
TB is in a better place, not on top of a hot exhaust manifold, you get better throttle responce , less pipe work , cooler is still cool to touch after been in traffic for 30 mins. Its worth changing the fans just for the weight saving

You make some good points. That's worth a few hundred to me, not a few thousand. To each his own though. I say if you are happy with your setup then it's money well spent.
In case anyone's interested the pipes out of my IC and my intake manifold are ambient if not cool to the touch. I have a modest setup though ~10psi so perhaps some of those pieces would be more beneficial as the setup advances.
VR6chris- You had a stock mani at one point right? Did you make other changes w/ the SRI or just the SRI? Just wondering if you could comment on the difference between the stock mani/longer piping and the SRI.


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## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

yes looking at the stock manifold it looks equal lenghts from the outside bit it does have runner compensation see pic


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## alex97jazzblue (Oct 17, 2001)

*Re: (vr6chris)*

I think of all the the sri 's i have seen crazydubman has the nicest :
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4137812
might have to seaarch the 12v forum for his build butit is done right.


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## xblueinsanityx (Nov 20, 2005)

seems like i lost allot of low end torque and hp....... its not an f1 engine


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bad Habit* »_Runner compensation? I though that was taken care with the 12V's port design? Looking at a stock manifold there is not any magical design to it.

yes in the 90s people didnt do the research and cut it open.
Its more to it then the eye can see


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_Schimmel has well tested this stuff and know a thing or to, and how come theres so many people using them.
Biggest problem with standard manifold is heat soak
SHORT RUNNER
TB is in a better place, not on top of a hot exhaust manifold, you get better throttle responce , less pipe work , cooler is still cool to touch after been in traffic for 30 mins. Its worth changing the fans just for the weight saving

yes but it gives CRAZY power loss over the entire powerband.

Not bill , god or NASA... anyone else will control the 4 stroke pulses.
Correct runner lenght for given rpm is basic engine tuning.
C2 , SP and other stuff is made to just FIT ALL and not to give you powergains.
And for the TB response i hade the exaple above with how much air you push.
removing 50% of the piping is like 0.0000001 sec in throttle responce


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## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

wish i had one (from tuner hq)...but am embarking on a similar build...
this looks to be about as good as it gets...


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## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

How many cars you see making 800bhp with OEM manifolds, All top HP cars are runner short runners.
So there also no heat soak problem with OEM manifold.
Shorter pipe work means less volume for Turbo to fill, so quicker throttle responce


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_How many cars you see making 800bhp with OEM manifolds, All top HP cars are runner short runners.
So there also no heat soak problem with OEM manifold.
Shorter pipe work means less volume for Turbo to fill, so quicker throttle responce









1:Because they cant fit the turbo under the manifold.
No other reason
2:Less volume ...sure
But its 0,00000000001 second difference 
what does you normal UBER long8.2foot 2.5inch piping take to fill?
900cfm aka 600hp vs 8.2foot 2.5inch pipe = split second with air traveling at 485foot a second


_Modified by [email protected] at 10:32 AM 12-30-2008_


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_wish i had one (from tuner hq)...but am embarking on a similar build...
this looks to be about as good as it gets...









propably best R32 / 2.8L 24v intake out there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
correct runner lengh and good shape.
No crap square box mani


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## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

You forgot about the Heat soak, don't tell me that intake temps are not a lot higher on OEM, then a short runner


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_You forgot about the Heat soak, don't tell me that intake temps are not a lot higher on OEM, then a short runner

Mani will not become that warm.
its still attatched to the engine and the heat will spread and it will become wamr.
the air inside it will not become warm just by beaing split second inside the plenum.
intercooler, air mass flow and pressure drop, air mass flow and cooling power and diff temperature and cooling efficiency plenum vs IC.
*8 mbar higher atmospheric pressure 1% more power
5C lower inlet temperature 1% more power 
So even if you go from 60c/140F to 70c/157F higher inlet temp its 2%.
So on you normal 600Hp kit its not even 12hp.*
you cant even feel 20hp at this powerlevel
So comparing a HUGE loss at 75whp/4k to 1-2% top end loss with incorrect runner lenght vs OEM intake.












_Modified by [email protected] at 1:11 PM 12-30-2008_


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

doesn't the mk4 12v have compensation in the cams? Can't we make the same for say a spturbo setup with 262~deg cams aimed at about 7k~ rpm peak power?


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## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
propably best R32 / 2.8L 24v intake out there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
correct runner lengh and good shape.
No crap square box mani









So pretty much if your going to make a custom sri you need 140+mm runners with tapered length ? 
Whats the ideal runner length?


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## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (vr6_Love)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6_Love* »_
So pretty much if your going to make a custom sri you need 140+mm runners with tapered length ? 
Whats the ideal runner length? 

180mm/120mm i believe


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_How many cars you see making 800bhp with OEM manifolds, All top HP cars are runner short runners.


I agree with that statement http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif but let's put it into perspective.
How many guys are trying to make over 400whp? How many can use over 400whp? Unless you are a dedicated drag racer on slicks the answer is no one.
Something else I thought of. The guys making the big power all use bigger turbos obviously. Those turbos probably don't fit with a stock manifold. My to4e is TIGHT back at the throttle body. I'm guessing that's the main reason they all use them. They really have no choice.


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## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*

my T04B is tucked back there pretty good. throttle body seems to have a good amount of room


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## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

Well, here's a link to Schimmels' web site showing the horsepower gains in a N/A application. It shows a 20 hp gain alone. This is the only place I've seen an actual published hp rating for a short runner. So, I get the feeling that in a F/I situation, it would perform in similar manor.
Only issue with Schimmel I have is the price. I bought mine used, so I didn't pay full price.
The only place I would use tuned (runner lenghts) intakes would be in a N/A ITB setup, and you would need to know where your peak horsepower was going to be and tune the lenghts for that rpm.
Looking at my set up the way it is at this moment (there's always places that need improvement and they will be worked on) makes excellent power, and despite the many limitations inherent within the engine compartment, performs well.
You might want to consider JAUN's or C2's which are less expensive than the Schimmel, but I don't think they perform as well, and well the Schimmel is a beauty to behold being a single piece cast aluminum part with no welds to worry about.
It would be great to have a real back to back to back comarison by some one with out an agenda, of short runners and get some real flow intake/head numbers to see who's flows the best, but that's almost as possible as world peace, or stopping global warming







. Maybe some one who knows some one at EUROTUNER, or EUROPEAN CAR (they once did a back to back exahust syatem comparison test) could get it done.
http://www.spturbo.com/gallery...d=223


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## Ted Brogan (Dec 13, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (groupracer)*


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## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Ted Brogan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ted Brogan* »_









how is your intake system setup?
i see a plastic looking box? anymore pics of that?


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## xblueinsanityx (Nov 20, 2005)

compensation for runner length becomes such a small factor when under boost that space limitations and flow become more important... in an n/a application its allot more important


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (xblueinsanityx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xblueinsanityx* »_compensation for runner length becomes such a small factor when under boost that space limitations and flow become more important... in an n/a application its allot more important 

This is such common *myth *















You engine is already boosted from start.
We live on earth and got 15psi .
So when you add another 15psi its acctually 30psi so its still the same rules that apply.
Nothing strange or nothing new.
With correct tuned runners you will make more power over the entire powerband.
Look at both crazydub´s car and mine .
Then show any other VR that have such broad powerbands that dont stop at 5700-6500rpm.

You will get so much Hp over the entire powerband by addin correct size turbo , runners , and pressure pipes to a boosted setup.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (groupracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groupracer* »_
http://www.spturbo.com/gallery...d=223

Yeah but on paper short runners are crap, how can anyone put parts on their cars that make 20whp on the dyno, but lose power on paper


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (sp_golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sp_golf* »_
Yeah but on paper short runners are crap, how can anyone put parts on their cars that make 20whp on the dyno, but lose power on paper









Yes the HPA intake is good example.
Still a year after they havent done any real dyno of the STG 2 cam stuff








Remember this is just a little shorter then OEM.
Like 2 inch or so.
OEM switching point is ~4000-4500 and still i havent got any gain until 6k


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Yes the HPA intake is good example.
Still a year after they havent done any real dyno of the STG 2 cam stuff








Remember this is just a little shorter then OEM.
Like 2 inch or so.
OEM switching point is ~4000-4500 and still i havent got any gain until 6k

















Interesting. That one looks good on paper but falls way short on the dyno.
I guess the stock R32 Manifold is just that good.


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## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (sp_golf)*

Im happy with my set up, SP Turbo all the way.
Im running GT3076R ,sp 263 cams , sp short runner, sp cooler , Emerald management, full 3'' exhaust system ,at 1 bar 401bhp & 380lbft torque
Don't forget im in united kingdom, i bought my stuff when it was $2 to the £1 , was a bagain


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_
Im running GT3076R ,sp 263 cams , sp short runner, sp cooler , Emerald management, full 3'' exhaust system ,at 1 bar 401bhp & 380lbft torque


So, when converted to American units you're actually making 301bhp?


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_Im happy with my set up, SP Turbo all the way.
Im running GT3076R ,sp 263 cams , sp short runner, sp cooler , Emerald management, full 3'' exhaust system ,at 1 bar 401bhp & 380lbft torque
Don't forget im in united kingdom, i bought my stuff when it was $2 to the £1 , was a bagain









Ok
Good comparision.
2.8L VR6 3076 263 Shimmel cams and shimmel intake.
*= 143BHp/[email protected]*
comparing to my
2.3L VR5 3076R 264* foffa cams and my own home made intake
*= 205BHp/[email protected]*

still satesfied at 15psi?










_Modified by [email protected] at 5:48 AM 1-1-2009_


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Ok
Good comparision.
2.8L VR6 3076 263 Shimmel cams and shimmel intake.
*= 143BHp/[email protected]*
comparing to my
2.3L VR5 3076R 264* foffa cams and my own home made intake
*= 205BHp/[email protected]*

still satesfied at 15psi?









_Modified by [email protected] at 5:48 AM 1-1-2009_

WOW you make more power than everyone at the same booost or lower, my car makes more boost at the same psi y0


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## NoMoreHonduh (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Ok
Good comparision.
2.8L VR6 3076 263 Shimmel cams and shimmel intake.
*= 143BHp/[email protected]*
comparing to my
2.3L VR5 3076R 264* foffa cams and my own home made intake
*= 205BHp/[email protected]*

still satesfied at 15psi?









_Modified by [email protected] at 5:48 AM 1-1-2009_


you make 471.5bhp at 15psi?


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (NoMoreHonduh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoMoreHonduh* »_

you make 471.5bhp at 15psi?

Hi
yes , i its all in the plenum + cams + exhaust manifold combo that makes the engine breathe this good.
And with 137mph traps with the heavy Jetta Mk4 streetcar its both track and dyno proven.
Cant wait to test the new engine for my other Jetta Mk4









From the 2 dyno test i did on this setup with a 500hp 76mm compressor.
Going 82mm on the other car
15psi = 
425WHP
18psi =
465WHP
22psi = 
480WHP
24.5psi = 
520WHP
26psi = 
540WHP


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

foffa you forget to tell that you run e85 on you car.. it works the same way as race fuel high octane with e85 you can add 10-15*more timing..compared to normal pump gas..thats why you see more power on your car..im pretty sure the car with the sp setup not runs e85 or racefuel.


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

put 95octane on your car tune it and lets if your still think your manifolds make that big diffrence..?compared to the sp setups..


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_foffa you forget to tell that you run e85 on you car.. it works the same way as race fuel high octane with e85 you can add 10-15*more timing..compared to normal pump gas..thats why you see more power on your car..im pretty sure the car with the sp setup not runs e85 or racefuel.

race fuel and E85 will give the same power.
Good VP CSP blen kill E85 any day.
But E85 is avalable on pump to 1/4th of the price.

But most guys in US dyno with a CSP blend.
You cant go over 22psi on 87 US octane.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_put 95octane on your car tune it and lets if your still think your manifolds make that big diffrence..?compared to the sp setups..

We did the dynos N/A with all mods before / after with 87 octane US blend in the VR6 forum.
Did you miss that 15page post?
We did 30whp cams + intake.
30whp*30psi = 100Bhp+ gain

OEM | [email protected] RPM | 132 [email protected] RPM
Stage 1 | [email protected] RPM | [email protected] RPM | 14% WHP gain over OEM
Stage 2 | 176WHP @7640 RPM | 146 [email protected] RPM | 21% WHP gain over OEM











_Modified by [email protected] at 7:33 AM 1-1-2009_


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

i understand why you run e85 cheap and works good i will run it myself but you can not compare 2 cars at 15psi if it not runs the same fuel 10-15 degress is a lot of power on boosted cars..


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*

Seems like someone is telling 50% of the real story. I am not disagreeing that attention to the details yeilds nothing but comparing pump to E85 knowingly etc makes you alot like wizard of od, stick to the real facts only please
For the record i am happy with my schimmel sri as are many people but a nice set of. Big turbo compensating cams would be nice too


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_i understand why you run e85 cheap and works good i will run it myself but you can not compare 2 cars at 15psi if it not runs the same fuel 10-15 degress is a lot of power on boosted cars..

Until people learn how to build engines and stop telling myths about what works ill keep posting this.
People run 
1:To small exhuast systems 
2:To small pressure pipes.
3:Horrible log manifold
4:Old T-series turbo from the 80s
5:Totally incorrect design on plenum and totally incorrect lenght on runners.

Just check crazydubs dyno.
Before this it was basicly only my car on the vortex that had power over 7k.
And the second guy to build a real intake and do a cam/exhuats combo also get much broader powerband.
Imagine his car with a GT4088R and at 30psi it will do 700whp and have some sick powerband.
Pre tuning dyno. the car did *220whp*+ later










_Modified by [email protected] at 7:51 AM 1-1-2009_


_Modified by [email protected] at 7:51 AM 1-1-2009_


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

the people you are talking about is not going for max power..remember that.


----------



## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*

[email protected] is a FAKE


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_the people you are talking about is not going for max power..remember that.

No but thats not a good reason not to tell people how to do it.
People on vortex want to learn and there are many guys here that wanna do their stuff at home and not just buy any hypes product that comes out on the market.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_[email protected] is a FAKE









Fake?
Im not a company and i dont sell any stuff.
is it fake that i steel the street car quartermile 1st place in the scandinavian competitions ? 

Why call something fake.
I dont make this up and most guys that didnt sleep in class know how to do simple calculations.
And most guys read books like 4-stroke performance etc that show basic tuning.
Its nothing new.
But the VW crow is like 30 years behind in tuning.


_Modified by [email protected] at 8:09 AM 1-1-2009_


----------



## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Ok , so what fuel you running


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_Ok , so what fuel you running

CSP , V-power pump or E85 depending on what car / what purpose that car have that day.
We got 3 tuned VR5´s.
And one is running 100% on alcohol and the other run on pump or CSP / Aspen


----------



## hardcore racer (Oct 22, 2004)

That's True Foffa, The VW people is far in the tuning department because they are more CAR Show people, but if you want to be competetive you have to be a lot more HARDCORE if you not ypu're going to be always following Honda and Import's dust.


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

the street car quartermile 1st place in the scandinavian competitions ? 
when...??you are not the fastest fwd streetcar in scandinavian.. we have 2 street cars here in denmark ho runs 11.2 and the other one runs 10.92 both cars are faster then you and what about the rest of scandinavien...?


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

yo so your telling me I would have made 877whp with a oem intake instead of the 802whp wit the SP. All you guys make me laugh. your all math and no experience to prove any of your theories.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_the street car quartermile 1st place in the scandinavian competitions ? 
when...??you are not the fastest fwd streetcar in scandinavian.. we have 2 street cars here in denmark ho runs 11.2 and the other one runs 10.92 both cars are faster then you and what about the rest of scandinavien...?

ive seen your street cars.
Thats why they race in max street








EDPS and Bug run


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_yo so your telling me I would have made 877whp with a oem intake instead of the 802whp wit the SP. All you guys make me laugh. your all math and no experience to prove any of your theories. 

Not with OEM because you rev more then the 5700rpm its tuned for.
And with the Shimmel its not tuned at all and you lose allt the benefits.
You know it also.
i remember when you added the 268s and had some serious gains.
Back in the days when people didnt even dare to put anything else then OEM cams in a turbo VR
If you do it correct you will get better mid range powerband and more top end



_Modified by [email protected] at 8:37 AM 1-1-2009_


----------



## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: (50CENT)*

SP TURBO all the way


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

they run in the street class here in denmark..that it..more then half of the cars in sweden should run in maxstreet..but they dont.. funny thing..look on spturbo..most of the cars made more power then you with sp intake and stock cams..


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_they run in the street class here in denmark..that it..more then half of the cars in sweden should run in maxstreet..but they dont.. funny thing..look on spturbo..most of the cars made more power then you with sp intake and stock cams..

Hehe are you kidding me?
Its a 52lb turbo on that car.
Why would it make more?


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

foffa
Are you saying all things being equal, the stock intake mani is superior to the SRI on an FI VR? I'm talking same boost, same cams, turbo, IC, etc.?
Let say on your run of the mill 300-400whp chipped VRT w/ 7k rev limiter.
Alot of talk about high HP cars w/ SRI's. That's fine but I'm pretty sure all of those cars run turbos w/ compressor housings that are too large for a stock mani so not really a fair comparison. 



_Modified by slc92 at 12:01 PM 1-1-2009_


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

im talking about the custumers cars


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_foffa
Are you saying all things being equal, the stock intake mani is superior to the SRI on an FI VR? I'm talking same boost, same cams, turbo, IC, etc.?
Let say on your run of the mill 300-400whp chipped VRT w/ 7k rev limiter.


i would keep it as long as possible.
But most log manifold make the compressor housing hit the TB








With 2nd pulse tuning and ~270-290* cams it would make good power until 7k also.

Most N/A tuning (exept lobe angle) fits the forced induction tuning.
There is no reason to trow away the concept by adding another 15psi to the already 15psi breathing N/A motor.


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (f[email protected])*

Thanks, that's my plan. My guess is that you meant most compressor housings hit the TB on a stock manifold?
Budget build and the plan is to run an 11.5 as cheap as possible. I'll do it on a stock mani and save the $3k from an SRI/AWIC setup and spend it on something that will actually make the car faster.


----------



## xblueinsanityx (Nov 20, 2005)

my compressor housing would fit under a stock manifold and i made 470hp but the next turbo i get wont fit and 3 grand for a short runner and air to water is way over what you actually need to spend to get it all


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

your info is appreciated. Always a good read.


----------



## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: (xblueinsanityx)*

Yup. Ive got about $300.00 into my homemade short runner and awic and it works as good or depending on your perspective as bad as most of the other short runner setups out there.Ive achived my desired perf goals , no blingy boutique parts required.


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_wish i had one (from tuner hq)...but am embarking on a similar build...
this looks to be about as good as it gets...










I run that intake.








There is no runner length compensation :/ but the stock cams are supposed to compensate for that. My rear bank (longer intake runners) DOES run leaner though. (Can tell by spark plugs)
EDIT:
Guys... Foffa is the real deal.. he comes in here with the know how and the background and has done the math and the research and the experimentation to know what he is talking about.
Why does everyone always get so butt hurt when he is just trying to give out info to help everyone?
SURE OBVIOUSLY everyone's setups WORK, but that doesnt mean they can't be BETTER. He's also right to point out that there are a lot of myths out there that go around because its what people hear and thats the only reason. Don't take this the wrong way but most car guys I know aren't nerds, but sometimes it takes one to understand some stuff, at least to the point of knowing what effects all these little things will have. Take his advice if you want, or dont. I know sometimes he a bit cocky about stuff, but oh well. 










_Modified by PhReE at 11:55 PM 1-1-2009_


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_
EDIT:
Guys... Foffa is the real deal.. he comes in here with the know how and the background and has done the math and the research and the experimentation to know what he is talking about.
Why does everyone always get so butt hurt when he is just trying to give out info to help everyone?
SURE OBVIOUSLY everyone's setups WORK, but that doesnt mean they can't be BETTER. He's also right to point out that there are a lot of myths out there that go around because its what people hear and thats the only reason. Don't take this the wrong way but most car guys I know aren't nerds, but sometimes it takes one to understand some stuff, at least to the point of knowing what effects all these little things will have. Take his advice if you want, or dont. I know sometimes he a bit cocky about stuff, but oh well. 










Foffa is definitely the real deal and he knows his sh*t.
the only reason i think he may come off as being cocky is because people are constantly bashing him just because they dont believe what he's saying. Not everyone will agree with him, alot of that goes on here on vortex. 
Until someone can come up with some dyno sheet comparisons on the SAME SETUP with an OEM manifold and then a SRI. the OEM manifold was built with staggered length runners, so a SRI that eliminates staggered runners should automatically bring up the point of not making power AS efficiently as the OEM manifold design right?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (eurobred)*

This is my Garrett T04S on stock manifold.
So a GT35R should fit, because it has the same housing. Its tight, but it fits


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_
Why does everyone always get so butt hurt when he is just trying to give out info to help everyone?


Probably all the dynos with ms paint hp curves drawn on.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Probably all the dynos with ms paint hp curves drawn on.

So if you help guys to plot it out from the dyno sheets already posted 99 times on vortex then people get mad?
Problem is that most people just check what max power is and then didnt see that the rest of the curve is way of.
But with some nice overlay plot in paint its easy to see what can be doen to the setup.


----------



## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I think whats at issue here is that Fredricks intrinsic nature to seek perfection, a quality exhibited by all engineers and scientists, this prohibits him from rational thought in the area of compromise.He claims that all shortrunners should be banished to the trash bin. again the shortrunner is a perfectly acceptable designe compromise where space , complexity and monetary constraints are taken in account. Not everone is seeking to extract every bit of performance out of their vehicle ,in the case of my corrado i was not prepared to fabricate 9 feet of intercooler tube to accomadate a factory intake for a marginal gain in what is allready acceptable performance .Fredrick there is no doubt that you are a skilled engineer and your contribution here on the vortex is valued but you cant have it both ways. If your going to be critical of everthing that is not perfection you have to ask yourself why did you choose a outdated vr over all the other superior engine designes, to work with?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (rickyrunamuk)*









Juan made this for me.


----------



## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

here is my ugly diy manifold cost me next to nothing to make ..welds look crap with alloy mig. welded in wind and rain both sides







but its held 27psi now for the last 4 months







runner lenghts are 6inch and 9 inch from the head if i remember ... probably the worst looking manifold on here but im very pleased with it 


















_Modified by ade007 at 1:42 AM 1-3-2009_


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Norwegian-VR6* »_








Juan made this for me.

that looks like really clean work


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (rickyrunamuk)*



rickyrunamuk said:


> again the shortrunner is a perfectly acceptable designe compromise where space , complexity and monetary constraints are taken in account. Not everone is seeking to extract every bit of performance out of their vehicle ,in the case of my corrado i was not prepared to fabricate 9 feet of intercooler tube to accomadate a factory intake for a marginal gain in what is allready acceptable performance QUOTE]
> Interesting. What intercooler setup are you running?
> I ask b/c I used the same logic but came to a different conclusion. What's simpler and cheaper than the manifold, fuel rail, pressure regulator, and fans that are already on the car? Piping totals about 8 feet in length. It would have been about 6 feet w/ the short runner. In my case, I was not willing to spend anywhere from $600-$1300 to save 2 feet of piping that cost ~$30.


----------



## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

Cheap $80.00 ebay awic, one 2.5 inch dia exhaust u, free bilge pump, polaris quad radiator and some garden hose. Main reason for choosing awic was that i could put it together with my limited skills and resources as well as not wanting to butcher up the bumper. I'll post pics as soon as i figure out the image hosting thing. Like i said limited skills.


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (rickyrunamuk)*

Oh ok, A/W. Kind of have to do an SRI w/ those. It was a tough decision for me as well as I didn't wan't to cut anything either. However, only true bolt on SRI was SP's ~$1300 after fans etc. I got over it, cutting was very minimal, and you can't see a thing so it worked out well for me. 
For the record, I'm not downing SRI/ A/W setups. I did a budget build by choice b/c I think it's more fun







and those pieces just didn't make the hp per dollar cut for a ~300-400whp budget build. Same goes for a GT turbo etc. I just don't need them to make 350-400 and run 11.5's. Doesn't mean they don't make sense for other builds


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (.therealvrt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.therealvrt* »_but comparing pump to E85 knowingly etc *makes you alot like wizard of od*, stick to the real facts only please


Lulz, you are an imbecile.


----------



## dapucker1 (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Norwegian-VR6* »_So a GT35R should fit, because it has the same housing. Its tight, but it fits

mine def did not... notice there's NO tb








thats why i went with the sp sri http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by dapucker1 at 1:30 AM 1-3-2009_


----------



## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: (rickyrunamuk)*

newb posts pictures


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

Yeah, but his turbo is clocked down in that pic. Im sure his wouldnt fit if he had it pointed straight at the TB like yours was in the pic.


----------



## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

Mine


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Radostormvr6* »_
Mine









drool*


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (eurobred)*

Here is a unit we did for a 24V. Runner lengths were around 4.5 inches which actually helped with fitment. No special low profile fans needed. Sorry,this is the only picture i have of it on our site.


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bad Habit* »_Here is a unit we did for a 24V. Runner lengths were around 4.5 inches which actually helped with fitment. No special low profile fans needed. Sorry,this is the only picture i have of it on our site. 









picture doesnt work
but here i hosted it for you
looks clean










_Modified by eurobred at 9:59 AM 1-3-2009_


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (eurobred)*

Thanks man!


----------



## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

C2 SRI aka "The Bread Bin" as some have referred to it on my buildup thread



















































_Modified by pOrKcHoP bOy at 10:11 AM 1-3-2009_


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (ade007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ade007* »_here is my ugly diy manifold cost me next to nothing to make ..welds look crap with alloy mig. welded in wind and rain both sides







but its held 27psi now for the last 4 months







runner lenghts are 6inch and 9 inch from the head if i remember ... probably the worst looking manifold on here but im very pleased with it 

















_Modified by ade007 at 1:42 AM 1-3-2009_

Yeh know, I really like the idea of that manifold. Curving it back up gives ample room for proper length runners. What is the difference in port runner length? I tried looking.







I know the runners are 420mm (16.5") from the factory.


----------



## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

the stock manifold has 3" (76mm) compensation in runner length .. the stock runners length on all 6 cylinders is 420mm 16.5" equal lengths from the intake valves 
stock runner lengths from the head =3x10"and 3x13" 
flipside custom from the head =6x10" 
i can still get the plugs out ok and can just get to bolt the manifold up . in a race i change gear around 6800rpm but still pulls till 7300rpm on stock cams 


_Modified by ade007 at 1:18 AM 1-4-2009_


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (ade007)*

http://www.velocity-of-sound.c...1.htm


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (dubdoor)*

^
Good stuff. 
256 cams, 420mm intake runners(stock manifold), 3rd harmonic=
6500 rpm peak efficiency. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_ http://www.velocity-of-sound.c...1.htm 

Does it not take into account the plenum space from the opening of the stack to the plenum ceiling? I know Volkswagen was huge on this theory with the MK4's using a ram air effect in which once the intake valve closed air that was still coming in would bounce off the valve and hit the ceiling, and in sequence the valve would open and the air shoved its way in, even while the piston was still coming up. So it's my understanding that MK4s have a tad longer intake duration than the MK3s. Does anyone have any real numbers on both factory cams? Actual duration at .050" lift, lift, and lobe seperation?
Also, on that site I do nut understand how you determine how many induction waves your plenum and engine setup would produce?










_Modified by Weiss at 1:52 PM 1-4-2009_


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (groupracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groupracer* »_Well, here's a link to Schimmels' web site showing the horsepower gains in a N/A application. It shows a 20 hp gain alone. This is the only place I've seen an actual published hp rating for a short runner. So, I get the feeling that in a F/I situation, it would perform in similar manor.
http://www.spturbo.com/gallery...d=223

If you actually look at this curve you will see the same problem that foffa illustrated. At about 3500 to 4500 rpm the stock manifold is better (25 hp), When you boost this will be a larger loss. I don't know about you but i drive my car on the street and 3500 to 4500 rpm is a pretty important range for street use








So far i have heard many reasons to use a sri, including ,TB placement, turbo is too large to fit under intake, intercooler plumbing etc. 
I will give you another one that is near and dear to us mk4 guys........the palstic intake manifold that will blow apart at higher boost levels.











_Modified by boravr6NS at 5:56 AM 1-4-2009_


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (boravr6NS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boravr6NS* »_
If you actually look at this curve you will see the same problem that foffa illustrated. At about 3500 to 4500 rpm the stock manifold is better (25 hp), When you boost this will be a larger loss. I don't know about you but i drive my car on the street and 3500 to 4500 rpm is a pretty important range for street use








So far i have heard many reasons to use a sri, incuding ,TB placement, turbo is too large to fit under intake, intercooler plumbing etc. 
I will give you another one that is near and dear to us mk4 guys........the palstic intake manifold that will blow apart at higher boost levels.










That was the biggest reason I went with the short intake manifold. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_^
Good stuff. 
256 cams, 420mm intake runners(stock manifold), 3rd harmonic=
6500 rpm peak efficiency. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Pretty sure this calculator assumes that all the intake ports are the same length, not the case for the VR.
So i guess cylinder 1,3,5 would need shorter stacks, but by how much?


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (boravr6NS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boravr6NS* »_

Pretty sure this calculator assumes that all the intake ports are the same length, not the case for the VR.
So i guess cylinder 1,3,5 would need shorter stacks, but by how much?

They are the same length. 420mm.


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: (slc92)*

I guess i was not clear....i meant the intake port in the head. Cylinders 1,3,5 have longer ports in the head, 
I think this is the reason why the intake manifolds have the different length runners to compensate.
Look at the picture above of the stock intake above with the bottom ripped out of it, i think you will see that there is somthing going on in there to effectively change the runner lengths.
So i wonder what that difference is?


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: (ade007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ade007* »_the stock manifold has 3" (76mm) compensation in runner length .. the stock runners length on all 6 cylinders is 420mm 16.5" equal lengths from the intake valves 
stock runner lengths from the head =3x10"and 3x13" 
flipside custom from the head =6x10" 


nevermind, it 420 mm to the intake valve, ok.

_Modified by boravr6NS at 7:22 AM 1-4-2009_


_Modified by boravr6NS at 7:23 AM 1-4-2009_


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (boravr6NS)*

Wouldn't larger overlap help with induction waves being bounced back? I know VW could not run big cams for emission purposes. I dont buy the fact that a car that stays in boost needs to have to deal with the issue, we are dealing with race cars here, correct? If its a matter of getting the proper air/fuel due to fuel "pooling" up behind the valve, i definitly do not buy that. Seeing as most of you are running sequential injection, this should not be a problem. Even if you were running batch the fuel would essentially evaporate the instant it made contact, most likely cooling it. 
Im sure im wrong
Enter Norbert Singer


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bad Habit* »_Wouldn't larger overlap help with induction waves being bounced back? I know VW could not run big cams for emission purposes. I dont buy the fact that a car that stays in boost needs to have to deal with the issue, we are dealing with race cars here, correct? If its a matter of getting the proper air/fuel due to fuel "pooling" up behind the valve, i definitly do not buy that. Seeing as most of you are running sequential injection, this should not be a problem. Even if you were running batch the fuel would essentially evaporate the instant it made contact, most likely cooling it. 
Im sure im wrong
Enter Norbert Singer

I don't think overlap has much to do with the waves as much as the intake duration of the cam profile does. The matter of the supersonic waves traveling back and forth owes that to the time in which the valve opens and closes, the runner length, runner diameter, and plenum ceiling to floor dimensions.
With forced induction you should try to stay away from as much overlap as possible, as the air flow you had just worked so hard to create is now being blown out the back door (the exhaust valve). If you look at most turbo/blower camshafts, they have atleast 112+ lobe seperation angles, and almost no overlap. However, most supercharged engines don't like huge amounts of lift... I forget why, I know I've read that in my Comp Cams book. But usually the same principles still apply with any good cam, more duration and more lift are all good aspects to have on a FI cam. 


_Modified by Weiss at 1:32 PM 1-4-2009_


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (Weiss)*

I understand the effect of scavenge with boost, im just not sure about the necessity of a minimum length runner with a boosted application for a car that lives life under full throttle, full boost enviroment? Every race car i had ever worked on has had the shortest runner possible other then GT3 cup cars(all spec anyhow) Never really worked on a truly developed VR6 race car, i dont think there are many that run on road circuits




_Modified by Bad Habit at 1:43 PM 1-4-2009_


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Weiss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weiss* »_
The matter of the supersonic waves...

How do you propose that sound waves travel faster than the speed of sound?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (ade007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ade007* »_the stock manifold has 3" 

3.22"-3.25" depending on how you measure it.


----------



## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (boravr6NS)*

Ok .So we are getting back into the academic bs here. At this point we all understand that in a all out race perf application an untuned or make that shortrunner is not the optimal way to go.Now in my 2800 lb vr6 powered street car is that 15% loss in torque at 3 to 4 k rpm going have any tangable neg effects on driveability and would changing to a oe intake have a simmilarly quatative possitive effect on fuel economy and drivability? I would suspect not.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (boravr6NS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boravr6NS* »_If you actually look at this curve you will see the same problem that foffa illustrated. At about 3500 to 4500 rpm the stock manifold is better (25 hp), When you boost this will be a larger loss. I don't know about you but i drive my car on the street and 3500 to 4500 rpm is a pretty important range for street use










I think that curve is a pretty good result. 
Unless you use variable geometry, you are never going to achieve perfect pulse tuning everywhere in the entire rev range, all of the time. 
Although having said that, I used to have a Schrick mani and that wasn't perfect either.
If the black lines are stock and green is Schimmel, then I'm seeing power and torque improvements over the stock manifold below 3000rpm and again above 5000rpm. So if many turbos are full boosting from 3500rpm, surely that is spot on?
I thought long runners are supposed to better for bottom end torque than short ones? Seems the opposite is true in this example. 
I drive from 3500 to 4500 a lot of the time too and I use Schimmel's intake. I find 3500 to 4500 to be savage, so I don't agree that the loss on boost is greater than NA. 
20hp over stock is 20hp over stock, how ever you look at it. I don't see any dyno plots from rival SRI manufacturers!


_Modified by kevhayward at 7:14 AM 1-5-2009_


----------



## Radostormvr6 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (kevhayward)*

Well said Kev , got to agree with this








I drive from 3500 to 4500 a lot of the time too and I use Schimmel's intake. I find 3500 to 4500 to be savage, so I don't agree that the loss on boost is greater than NA. 
I don't see any dyno plots from rival SRI manufacturers


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (kevhayward)*

Something to keep in mind is that the schimmel dyno looks NOTHING like the separate dynos ive seen on both schimmel and C2 intake.
Loss is way more.
Just like the HPA CVP dyno.

Some another issues 
1:less power down low will give you more lag.´Less exhaust = less energy to drive the turbo
2:25Hp loss = 60Hp loss if you have 22psi there. and a huge 75hp loss at 29psi.
So if that "little" 25hp accour at 4000rpm and you could have easily produced 29psi there you have a nice 75hp loss


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

so i would have noticeable power loss running a short runner intake without staggared runners even though ill be running schrick 268* cams?


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

You ought to have one thing compensating for the runner lengths.
MK3 stock it is the runners
MK4 stock it is the cams
I am pretty sure NO aftermarket cams have any compensation.
So with aftermarket cams (or stock MK3 cams) you'd want a manifold with compensation.
With Stock MK4 cams you don't want runner compensation as the cams do this.


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (PhReE)*

oh ok so runner length is crutial, if i had a source on someone who could make a short runner with the runners the proper staggared lengths, i would do that. but usually the price is ridiculous...


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

It is optimal to have it compensated. It's not going to just not work if it's not compensated, but what WILL happen is the front bank and rear bank will have different torque curves, and thus different peaks, which will create a wider powerband, BUT in many cases the runners are too short for both banks and thus the peak powerband would be way past the redline. Moral is LONGer runners are more important, staggered runners are nice too, but sometimes you need to make compromises. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (PhReE)*

so if the runners are too short and even length, peak power will be at too high of an RPM.
what if the runners were a little longer than say... the SP SRI, their runners are super short, but say a short runner was made with the same length runners all the way across but made a little *longer* would it still be the same situation?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_so if the runners are too short and even length, peak power will be at too high of an RPM.
what if the runners were a little longer than say... the SP SRI, their runners are super short, but say a short runner was made with the same length runners all the way across but made a little *longer* would it still be the same situation?

here is runner compensation cut of + ~2.5inch extra cut of .
aka ~360mm out of 420mm stock with crappy plenum.
Very similar setup. Dark blue is stock intake mani, other is flipside.


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_so if the runners are too short and even length, peak power will be at too high of an RPM.
what if the runners were a little longer than say... the SP SRI, their runners are super short, but say a short runner was made with the same length runners all the way across but made a little *longer* would it still be the same situation?

Kind of like this?








Still making some compromises, but its pretty DAMN good.


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
here is runner compensation cut of + ~2.5inch extra cut of .
aka ~360mm out of 420mm stock with crappy plenum.
Very similar setup. Dark blue is stock intake mani, other is flipside.









looks like the power comes in later than the stock manifold. stock manifold makes more power at a lower RPM than the short runner does, if the runners are the correct staggared length, that power difference would be minimal right? also if the plenum was larger in diameter?
i believe flipside uses a 3" plenum which is tiny


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_
Kind of like this?








Still making some compromises, but its pretty DAMN good.

just like that but with ZIG ZAG pattern on the runners and then you have great plenum shape AND 3inch compensation with one runner in the front and one in the back of the plenum. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Like if its atlast 5 inch wide its possible to do it for Mk3 12v.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
just like that but with ZIG ZAG pattern on the runners and then you have great plenum shape AND 3inch compensation with one runner in the front and one in the back of the plenum. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Like if its atlast 5 inch wide its possible to do it for Mk3 12v.

































That's my setup, using the same plenum as the area 51/afi turbo 24v manifold posted above. 1.5" of compensation in the plenum and 1.5" outside in the runners. I got my friend to do some sweet 3d machining for me


----------



## boosted b5 (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_










you let morgan go wild on the valve cover huh?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
































That's my setup, using the same plenum as the area 51/afi turbo 24v manifold posted above. 1.5" of compensation in the plenum and 1.5" outside in the runners. I got my friend to do some sweet 3d machining for me









There you have it







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
go out and duplicate that one and use the runner length thats fits your cams and port size vs you goal


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

Good info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
How about rpm? Isn't that going to influence runner length? Most chipped cars have a 7k rev limit. 
Perhaps the SRI would see more gains for the standalone high rev crowd? 
Still haven't seen anything back to back stock mani vs. SRI







Anybody? It would be interesting to see


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_










wish i could have someone make a manifold like THAT for me. 
that thing looks legit


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_
wish i could have someone make a manifold like THAT for me. 
that thing looks legit

Just curious. Why so bent on a short runner? Turbo not fit w/ the stock mani?


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
Just curious. Why so bent on a short runner? Turbo not fit w/ the stock mani?

no it fits, im running a T04B, 60 trim compressor with a .96a/r exhaust.
i'm just trying to get ideas for future use. im going to be running a chip tune for now, but eventually i'm going to be running standalone and i want to see what my options are when its time to make more power


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

Lee, DUDE! That mani is SICK!!


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_
no it fits, im running a T04B, 60 trim compressor with a .96a/r exhaust.
i'm just trying to get ideas for future use. im going to be running a chip tune for now, but eventually i'm going to be running standalone and i want to see what my options are when its time to make more power

Gotcha. The right SRI might be beneficial for some setups. $$/hp think more boost, bigger exhaust, bulletproof the trans and motor. Just my opinion and especially since your turbo fits. You'll make 400whp plus and run 11's all day if you want w/ that turbo and stock mani










_Modified by slc92 at 6:56 PM 1-5-2009_


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*

Hey leebro61
Wouldn't happen to have the files for that solid model?








What is it ,Parisolid, iges?
Willing to email this to me?


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
just like that but with ZIG ZAG pattern on the runners and then you have great plenum shape AND *3inch compensation with one runner in the front and one in the back of the plenum. * http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Like if its atlast 5 inch wide its possible to do it for Mk3 12v.

i dont quite understand what your saying here.. so 3 of 6 Cyl's. have to have at least 3" compensation? while the other 3 dont?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (vr6_Love)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6_Love* »_
i dont quite understand what your saying here.. so 3 of 6 Cyl's. have to have at least 3" compensation? while the other 3 dont?
















you have to add ~3 inch to the front cylinder bank just like the zig zag plenum above to get same length to all cylinders


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

Not mine, but from what i hear, it functions pretty well


----------



## NeverEnding... (May 9, 2007)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Not mine, but from what i hear, it functions pretty well


























now that is sick







...any other pics or stats of the rest of the setup? very clean http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (boravr6NS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *boravr6NS* »_Hey leebro61
Wouldn't happen to have the files for that solid model?








What is it ,Parisolid, iges?
Willing to email this to me?


I modeled the individual components and did the assembly in Pro-E. For the machine work on the baseplate we just used the iges and stp files for the toolpaths. I don't mind sharing the files but I must warn you, I built the manifold to fit the plenum I was going to be using, and unless you also have the capability to make these....








... then the models I would send you might not do you any good.








Boosted_b5, the cam cover was back in ~03 when Morgan's dad just got the CNC machine up and running in their backyard. I was sandblasting the cam cover in their blast cabinet and they were looking for something to test the engraving on


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*

Man that plenum is sick.....i was wondering how you made that!!!
Yeah, i guess i can't make that.....Thanks anyway.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_sometimes you need to make compromises. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Yep, agreed








This is an interesting subject for sure, but there are some sensationalised claims here. Some of the plots and theories here assume that one car would be awful to drive and one with the "perfect" manifold would be 100% spot on, all of the time. 
I don't believe that is possible. No intake or setup is perfect, otherwise we'd just fit X, Y & Z and leave it at that.
I know my SP intake is flawed. Cyl's 1 and 2 need slight trimming to match the rest (I tune by spark plug colour and data logging) but for a road car, it runs really well and has done for 2 years, so it doesn't bother me that the runners aren't the length some people on the internet say they should be. 
If I was pushing for the last hp for 1/4 mile use, then this subject would hold more weight for me, but at the end of the day we're cramming a tonne of boost into an engine that wasn't designed for it, so it's always going to be a big bunch of compromises.


_Modified by kevhayward at 3:03 AM 1-6-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Yep, agreed








This is an interesting subject for sure, but there are some sensationalised claims here. Some of the plots and theories here assume that one car would be awful to drive and one with the "perfect" manifold would be 100% spot on, all of the time. 
I don't believe that is possible. No intake or setup is perfect, otherwise we'd just fit X, Y & Z and leave it at that.
I know my SP intake is flawed. Cyl's 1 and 2 need slight trimming to match the rest (I tune by spark plug colour and data logging) but for a road car, it runs really well and has done for 2 years, so it doesn't bother me that the runners aren't the length some people on the internet say they should be. 
If I was pushing for the last hp for 1/4 mile use, then this subject would hold more weight for me, but at the end of the day we're cramming a tonne of boost into an engine that wasn't designed for it, so it's always going to be a big bunch of compromises.

_Modified by kevhayward at 3:03 AM 1-6-2009_

Boosted or N/A is no difference.
The engine we call N/A work at 15psi .
So if it works well N/A it will work even better at an extra 15psi.

Every really angry turbo motor will produce big nr´s N/A.

So if you dont have to change the OEM VR6 MK3 manifold dont do it.
There is no reason what so ever to spend that cash if you dont go to the next level and get som wild cams and built head and chase power after 7000rpm.
But lots of guys change whatever they can just to be able to have that EIP sticker on the car


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

I've always liked how this one looked.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (need_a_VR6)*

^^^ Ugh. I must work too slow, didn't realize somebody beat me to it already


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*

The carboard cutout version of that one but with the plenum up top was thought of in 2002 or earlier. The cardboard didn't clear the hood though and it was never made.


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

any numbers on that one..? is it a big turbonetics...?


----------



## boosted b5 (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
Boosted_b5, the cam cover was back in ~03 when Morgan's dad just got the CNC machine up and running in their backyard. I was sandblasting the cam cover in their blast cabinet and they were looking for something to test the engraving on









the CNC Plasma cutter hes got rigged up now is pretty sweet. him and his dad come up with some crazy things


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_The carboard cutout version of that one but with the plenum up top was thought of in 2002 or earlier. The cardboard didn't clear the hood though and it was never made.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I would have went up if I had the room like the 24v manifold posted above (with the round runners). If I had a 12v in a mk4, it might have been possible with the tighter radius bends but with the Corrado front end down was the only option








Got any pics of the inside of that one paul?


----------



## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

some nice looking manifolds pics being posted







here is a mockup pic of what i was first going to make with my stock manifold. i was going to use 2 plentums and fetch them together with y peice using 2 1/2" plentum tube for each bank


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
Got any pics of the inside of that one paul?









I might at home.


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
How do you propose that sound waves travel faster than the speed of sound? 

I am not proposing that sound waves travel faster than sound. The waves bouncing back and forth can move as fast as the speed of sound which, if I remember right, is 760mph.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Weiss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weiss* »_
I am not proposing that sound waves travel faster than sound. The waves bouncing back and forth can move as fast as the speed of sound which, if I remember right, is 760mph. 

You said supersonic, as in faster than the speed of sound. The speed of sound = sqrt (kRT).
k = specific heat ratio
R = gas constant
T = absolute temperature


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

this is my vr6 12v sri..


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

@ foffa.
I was planning on making my own sri. in the same fashion as the SP.
But after reading your posts i think it would be better to curve upwards like the stock mani. and make a plenum large anough to fit runners of different lengths, correct?
Maybe this is a better solution anyway because i don't have that much space with my Ac lines in the way..
I did my homework with the books i bought but the subject of equal length runners never really passed by, because most engines do not have this "problem"


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
You said supersonic, as in faster than the speed of sound. The speed of sound = sqrt (kRT).
k = specific heat ratio
R = gas constant
T = absolute temperature

Beh, you got me. I meant the speed of sound itself.








That twin manifold idea is not a bad thought. I'm not sure how friendly that would be for clearance, though.


----------



## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: (Weiss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weiss* »_
That twin manifold idea is not a bad thought. I'm not sure how friendly that would be for clearance, though.

there were plenty of room with the smaller pipe i just decided to make the other one for the easyer using most parts from the cut up stock manifold







also i were thinking about runing balancing tubes to each plentum if needed i guessed 2 1/2 plentum feeding 3 cylinders were like having a 5" on single plentum 6 cylinders


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

2*2,5" is no even close to 5" ...







2*2,5 er very close to 3,5"..


----------



## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_2*2,5" is no even close to 5" ...







2*2,5 er very close to 3,5"..
 
cheers for doing the maths http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 3.5" wuda still been fine










_Modified by ade007 at 10:29 PM 1-7-2009_


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (ade007)*

hows this for a comparison... between a ported 2.9 clone manifold and the tubular short runner (stainless steel)
i found this in the vr6 engineering thread...
looks like the short runner made more power, i guess this benefit is there as long as the short runner is made properly?
the *red* is the 2.9 clone vr6 manifold
the *blue* is the tubular short runner


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (eurobred)*

^
Do those runners look short to you?


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_^
Do those runners look short to you?









hahahaahah no they dont, but its still shorter than the OEM manifold


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_
hahahaahah no they dont, but its still shorter than the OEM manifold

No, those look quite a bit longer than the stock runners, especially on the rear bank of cylinders.


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (leebro61)*

Daaaaaaamn, those monster runners really gave a good torque increase


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_
hahahaahah no they dont, but its still shorter than the OEM manifold

I'm not so sure. The runners on the OE mani don't start right after the TB.


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_
I'm not so sure. The runners on the OE mani don't start right after the TB.

true but wouldn't the open area before the runners compensate? or would that be equivalent to the plenum on the "short runner"?


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (eurobred)*

Equivalent to the plenum only.


----------



## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_
i found this in the vr6 engineering thread...


got a link to the thread?


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (L.I. Dan)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...52828


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_hows this for a comparison... between a ported 2.9 clone manifold and the tubular short runner (stainless steel)
i found this in the vr6 engineering thread...
looks like the short runner made more power, i guess this benefit is there as long as the short runner is made properly?
the *red* is the 2.9 clone vr6 manifold
the *blue* is the tubular short runner


















This is a scam
Why wont that intake just die









First signs of scam
1yno = hp over entire powerband








Wont happens with pulse tuning 
2:Horrible plenum shape
Its even worse then the flipside








3:will KILL performance on the last cylinders








4lenum is way to small 








5:Runners are longer then OEM








Its like locking OEM mk4 intake in long runner mode and power falls of after 4500rpm
6:Cylindebank compensation is removed


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

This is a scam
Why wont that intake just die









First signs of scam
1yno = hp over entire powerband








Wont happens with pulse tuning 
2:Horrible plenum shape
Its even worse then the flipside








3:will KILL performance on the last cylinders








4lenum is way to small 








5:Runners are longer then OEM








Its like locking OEM mk4 intake in long runner mode and power falls of after 4500rpm
6:Cylindebank compensation is removed









I <3 Foffa, he uses the







very well


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (IwannaGTI)*

I THOUGHT that dyno looked suspect... that was a LOT of power to be made from a manifold with a rather small lookin plenum.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: (PhReE)*

And good luck closing your hood, using that "manifold"


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (Norwegian-VR6)*

got the stacks yesterday...
ready to melt some rods...


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (dubdoor)*

Is that INA's flange? or C2's?


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Is that INA's flange? or C2's?

looks like INA.
hopefully you're gettting Mikey to weld the manifold for you.


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

I think he has a Grand Am fabricator doing it


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

I guess its a C2 one.
INA:


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

c2 flange...
i'm sure Mike does fine work but i've already got a guy on the job..
...i think he'll get on the job in Feb after helping the Martien/Zacharias/Pilet/Massen Wright Motorsports entry try to take the Daytona 24 GT title...
















edit: stacks sourced from down under, http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/...good prices, quick shipping...


_Modified by dubdoor at 1:59 PM 1-10-2009_


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_c2 flange...
i'm sure Mike does fine work but i've already got a guy on the job..
...i think he'll get on the job in Feb after helping the Martien/Zacharias/Pilet/Massen Wright Motorsports entry try to take the Daytona 24 GT title...
















edit: stacks sourced from down under, http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/...good prices, quick shipping...

_Modified by dubdoor at 1:59 PM 1-10-2009_

Are the advertised ID's on those velocity stacks measured at the rim or at the base?


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (Weiss)*

i don't have them in front of me so i can't tell you exactly where the ID is measured at...
they are 45mm x 75mm, that much i do know...i'm guessing at the base...


----------



## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_got the stacks yesterday...
ready to melt some rods...


----------



## AlexiGTIVR6 (Jul 21, 2000)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_got the stacks yesterday...
ready to melt some rods...

















should be sweet when its done http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by AlexiGTIVR6 at 3:41 PM 1-10-2009_


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_got the stacks yesterday...
*ready to melt some rods...







*









Do this:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_got the stacks yesterday...
ready to melt some rods...

















So what will you do to get the correct lenght of those stacks?
4 inches are missing on em so it will be huge powerloss


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

add material







none of them are the same length.


_Modified by Bad Habit at 4:50 PM 1-11-2009_


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Add runners because these are only the stacks..
I'm picking up a 2.9 manifold tonight, i'm curious if that gives me some result.
If it doesn't work out the way i want i'll still try to make an sri out of the stock manifold. But i'll take my time, i'm not willing to give in power just because i wanted an sri asap
so it should look a bit like this:








But with a bit more length and ELR's


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_The carboard cutout version of that one but with the plenum up top was thought of in 2002 or earlier. The cardboard didn't clear the hood though and it was never made.

Guilty, wanna see pics?








Actually, I am not sure if I have any pictures of the mock up.
I do know I have a .jpg of the initial design floating in my archive.

That Schimmel dyno posted earlier...
there is a gain there but it came with the addition of an air filter/intake of some sort.
Any idea as to what kind of filter/intake it was, placement???
We all know that can drastically change the results in either direction, good or bad.



_Modified by billyVR6 at 4:10 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

Preface
I am posting this in reference to eurobred's desire to know what would be the best way to design his particular intake system, which would be the best way to go. It is always good in ones self interest to be educated in what you are about to do, of course. Therefore, since VELOCITY OF SOUUND's web site was quoted earlier, I thought it would be best ot go to the source and ask the question. So , here was my question:
I am hoping that some one here could put an end to a long discussion on equal length tuned intakes. This is in relation to Volkswagen s VR6 motor. Due to it s head design, the intake as well as the exhaust lengths mismatch in length by 3 inches. In effect the difference between say intake length in cylinder 1 is 3 longer than cylinder 2, on down the line.The sticking point is the necessity of tuned runner lengths in forced induction applications. Several tuners sell what is called a short runner intake. The stock set-up is a some what long intake runner/plenum that uses a sealed chamber that opens above 4000-4500 rpm changing the spacing on the pulses generated by the opening and closing of the cylinders.
Several people in this discussion say that power is lost due to the short runner configuration, and one must use long tuned length runners, even in a forced induction applications. I have heard of this and understand the concept for normally aspirating configurations, but I, as well as several others believe this is not necessary in a forced induction application. 
Your web site has been quoted several times with the information you provide regarding shaped tuned length velocity stacks. I do understand the concept and application, again, in a normally aspirating engine.Like said, I believe they are correct for use in normally aspirating engines but unnecessary in forced induction applications, and there is no truly inherent losses in real world applications by using an untuned short runner intake manifold in forced induction applications.I am hoping some one understands what I am asking can comment without getting too complicated, in whether or not each side is correct. The reasons for this is quite simple. No one I know has done back to back comparisons and the facts that have been put forth are from people that do not have any real facts and education, on either part, to really say which faction is correct.
Can some one help?
Thank you for any consideration,
Regards,
Evan Petrakis
This is what his reply was:
Evan,
I don't wish to get dragged into an online argument, but it is my view that tuned runner lengths are not really an issue in a supercharged system, except chemical supercharging (ie nitrosoxide injection). My understanding of the physics involved is that the induction shock wave is cancelled out by the unnatural pressure on the system produced by the supercharger (turbo or mechanical supercharger). This is, perhaps, slightly different than saying that different length runners does not matter in a supercharged system. I think it is always better to work towards matched length intake and exhaust runners, but my experiences suggest this is not always possible, particularly with a VW engine. I suggest you closely examine a Top Fuel or Top Alcohol engine. The supercharger does not account for tuned length intake runners, but they are all very similar in length. Given these are the most radically tuned engines out there, I suggest there is some science or physics behind it. There are 2 issues here, but only one that relates to your question. Tuned lengths relate to the induction wave within a naturally aspirated engine, but matched length runners relate to air/fuel delivery efficiency. The former appears to be negated in a supercharged engine, but the latter may not be. I hope this helps. To explore this further I suggest you email your closest 
college Formula SAE team, they would have access to more up todate info on these issues. In Australia, a number of Formula SAE teams are experimenting with turbos, they would have technical data that might help end or even stimulate this debate.
Cheers Mate!
Dr Patrick O'Leary
http://www.velocity-of-sound.com
+61.3.5334.4148
+61.4.1916.2980
Now this is long to read, but if anyone really wants to understand at least read the reply FULLY. Anyone can email him with my name to see if what is here is truely what he said so there is absolutely no doubts of what is written here is true. The point he seems to be making is there are limits and limitations and to go to far in one direction and diregard the rest is not really correct. What he is saying also, is right in his first sentence to me...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (groupracer)*

Pretty funny that he uses the supercharger as comparision and say there is a difference in tuner calc vs a N/A engine when even GM and VAG have a lab here that work day and night with tuning the intakes for all their turbo motors.
or did i understand that text wrong?
When you have full throttle at N/A its 14.5psi induction pressure.
Wave wont change if its 30,40, or 50psi induction pressure.
I wish i could post some stuff from the software i have at the lab








But its not leagal to do that.

Funny that many think that turbo charging is still such exotic thing.
Basicly no rules will change vs N/A tuning.

Even 2.0T FSI use the runner lenght to tune bottom end and top end .
power
OEM vario intake on turbo motor


















_Modified by [email protected] at 1:05 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

Finally found som pictures.
Here is a low boost run with dual lenght intake.
This is Gary Wong from vortex who did these test runs.

Going from long runner plenum and switching and just look att that serious gain. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Btw we locked the plenum at high rpm mode due to that you get wip lash when it switch plenum








And its NOT changning runner lenght.
Its adding the front chamber








nevermind the tail sniffer air fuel ratio

























_Modified by [email protected] at 1:03 PM 1-12-2009_


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:07 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

You are so full of crap.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

I think that you are forgetting the fact that a NA motor creates a vacuum. the presure in your intake wil not be 14.5 psi but lower. looking at your boost gauge while driving without the turbo working you wil see around -0.5 / -0.6 bar.(around -7 psi?)
At that point the motor is sucking through the air. With a turbo charged engine the induction pressure is raised above the normal 14.5 psi, therefore the air will be forced/blown trough the engine. Therefore they call it Forced induction.
So there is a difference in flow caracteristics.
i'm going to check my book(maximum boost by corky bell) on this, i did read something about this in there


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Bad Habit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bad Habit* »_You are so full of crap. 

And you need to go back and read a book how it works


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_I think that you are forgetting the fact that a NA motor creates a vacuum. the presure in your intake wil not be 14.5 psi but lower. looking at your boost gauge while driving without the turbo working you wil see around -0.5 / -0.6 bar.(around -7 psi?)
At that point the motor is sucking through the air. With a turbo charged engine the induction pressure is raised above the normal 14.5 psi, therefore the air will be forced/blown trough the engine. Therefore they call it Forced induction.
So there is a difference in flow caracteristics.
i'm going to check my book(maximum boost by corky bell) on this, i did read something about this in there

You wont get vacum in a room just because you have ITB´s and open stacks.
The pressure at the tip is still the same.
There are some good N/A tuning books that even show somw theoretical flow pulse peaks over


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

And you need to learn how to photoshop a dyno chart to at least make it appear somewhat believable. Mathematically impossible to not have power and torque meet a 5252 rpm










_Modified by Bad Habit at 4:19 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Bad Habit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bad Habit* »_And you need to learn how to photoshop a dyno chart to at least make it appear somewhat believable. Mathematically impossible to not have power and torque meet a 5252 rpm









its not TQ





























Its Newton
















TQ is "vridmoment" vridmoment in europe is measured in newton in almost every country here


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

i see, i see. Which dyno is that?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Bad Habit)*

Dynomite is the software.
It can be used on ANY type of dyno.

We use the best dyno there is http://www.rri.com
Hub type dyno
530Whp @1.65bar
And then we re-dynoed at the rollers and hit same nr.
[email protected] (turbo maxed totally out)
Track test show that there were propably a little more juice at the track even though.

cant wait to see *leebro61 * intake on the dyno.
2009 might be the year when we start to see high hp VW with great driveablility in all rpms.
BTW 
I will do a couple of runs with the N/A engine before i do the snifftest this year.
I will come back with some logs of 
OEM 248* cams vario MK4 intake
264/256* cams MK4 front plenum mode
264/256* cams Foffa stack 8k plenum http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:32 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*

ok i qoute this from my book:
"Under ideal conditions intake manifold pressure at full throttle in a NA engine is the same as ambient-outside-air-pressure. At sea level , ambient air pressure is considered to be 14.7psi. Notice i said "ideal". Any restriction to the induction system reduces the amount of pressure available to each cillinder. For example ,a 1psi drop through the carburator means that pressure in the intake manifold is 1psi less then ambient. At sea level this means only 13.7 psi is available to charge the cillinders"
*Quoted from turbochargers by hugh macinnes.*
So your statement that an NA engine is already charged and therefore the flow will not be different is not correct.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_ok i qoute this from my book:
"Under ideal conditions intake manifold pressure at full throttle in a NA engine is the same as ambient-outside-air-pressure. At sea level , ambient air pressure is considered to be 14.7psi. Notice i said "ideal". Any restriction to the induction system reduces the amount of pressure available to each cillinder. For example ,a 1psi drop through the carburator means that pressure in the intake manifold is 1psi less then ambient. At sea level this means only 13.7 psi is available to charge the cillinders"
*Quoted from turbochargers by hugh macinnes.*
So your statement that an NA engine is already charged and therefore the flow will not be different is not correct.

The earth is charged.
We dont live in vacum.
thats why they show this
*Any restriction to the induction system reduces the amount of pressure available to each cillinder*
its not 0.
if you have no restrictions its no pressure change

Ok do whatever lenght you want.
And the rest that follow what the acctuall car industry use can get correct lenght or even start to make their own vario intakes for boosted applications .
Just like ALL the leading turbo charged brands


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:41 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (pimS)*

So let me get what you are saying, your point is that short runners kill power? Does runner length and their proper length benefits not have to do with the rpm that the engine operates at? The difference between a Rolex spec GT3 and an ALMS GT3 RSR is that the RSR has throttle bodies with virtually no runner and a little more compression making 200 more ponies then the other?


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Damn you right foffa, i went to fast on my conclusion.
A well then thats sorted

Ok something else, some standard stuff about runners and plenus straight out of the book.
I've been looking around on the net for a while now, trying to find as many examples of sri's on vrt's, and i'm quite amazed about the designs people come up with. completely flat intersection's between runners and plenum etc etc. and still daring to charge 100's of euro's for a sri that probably won't give you anything but power loss
Standard stuff:
- Plenum volume should be a function of engine displacement: 50-70%
-ideal stack shape: Radius of arc = equal of throat diameter. width: 3x throat diameter.
-turbo aplications will generally find the best results with long runners, wich provide a broad, flat torque curve at low speeds, while the turbo keeps the top-end strong. higher revving engines will tend to shorter runners.
-Symmetry of design is a disirable caracteristic, either race or street, as it facilitates equal distribution of airflow to each cillinder.


_Modified by pimS at 1:56 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (pimS)*

Naturally aspirated








Boosted












_Modified by Bad Habit at 5:10 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Automotive porn


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes ([email protected])*

I must ask, Foffa, are you an engineer? I can truthfully say I am not. Therefore I seek the advise of those who know.
I must counter to there is no such thing as the best dyno there is unless it proves SOMEONES point.
I am saying that as we all must know, air pumps, and gsoline engines are air pumps, are frought with comprimises as anyone here reading this tread should know and to say any one thing is "better" is wrong. I won't go into all the comrimises VW entered when they designed the VR6. We all know too well. Oh and why does VW use a SRI in the 4 cyl turbo? Because of necessary comprimises for the best performance VALUE.
Do you not see in top fuel drag engines? They don't have "tuned" runners, and they make 7000-8000hp not just 700. Do you think they are comrimising performance? Did you not read my post or did you ignore it? The same place that you told people to go to to prove that sri's were bad, said almost the oposite in a forced inductiuon situation. I am not here to compete in a pissing contest. I want to inform with the knowlege I have and be informed by people that really know what they are talking about, which by the way is really short. Most prractice what could be best described as vodoo engineering.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

if we all stick our heads together and listen to what someone has to say we might get something usefull out of this. I'm not an automotive engineer, jeez i'm just 22 years old







, i just want to know about what happens inside the engine and what can make it more efficient


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_if we all stick our heads together and listen to what someone has to say we might get something usefull out of this. I'm not an automotive engineer, jeez i'm just 22 years old







, i just want to know about what happens inside the engine and what can make it more efficient

I'm not an automotive engineer either... but I am a gas turbine performance engineer. Anyway, it's not necessarily the application (automotive) that is important but the concepts and background (compressible fluid flow) that is important. People think that NA engines work under vacuum and FI engines work under boost, but that's only because people (mostly Americans) have become accustomed to the 'gage' pressure scale where ambient pressure (1 atmosphere) is an arbitrary zero and anything less is vacuum, anything more is boost. If you look at it on an absolute scale, it all begins to make sense. 
On an absolute scale, ambient pressure is ~100 kPa - 1 bar - 14.5 psi (I rounded these down slightly for simplicity). If your car idles at -20 inhg, thats about -10 psi, or 4.5 psi on an absolute scale. If your car pulls -28 inhg off throttle, in gear, at high rpm, you are very close to zero pressure. The conversion factor is 2.036 inhg = 1psi.
Like foffa says, there is no magical switch that turns on when your engine inlet pressure exceeds 14.5 psi (absolute) because it's really just an arbitrary number. The only time that compressible fluids have a significant change in behavior is when the sound barrier is broken and you get into subsonic vs. supersonic flow regimes... but that isn't what we are talking about.
I can't speak for foffa here, but my position has always been that you can build an intake with whatever length runner you want and if your car is turbocharged OR you have lots of displacement, you're going to make loads of power and have lots of fun. This doesn't bother me one bit. However, if you have the means to do so (space in the bay, ability to fabricate, etc.), an intake manifold with correctly tuned runners should be considered. It's not the end of the world if you can't make it happen to your regularly driven street car. I think most people in this community call any intake manifold with straight intake runners and a side inlet throttle body a "short runner". If you look closer at some of the OEM short runners (VW 1.8t, Honda B/K/D series, etc.) the runners aren't as short as you think they are. My brother machined some intake manifolds and did testing on a high horsepower Honda B series car and with longer runners they made better midrange power and similar/better top end power over a popular cast, shorter runner manifold while running less boost across the board.
Just my opinion, build your cars as you like. It's just a hobby to me, not worth getting upset about










_Modified by leebro61 at 6:28 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
I can't speak for foffa here, but my position has always been that you can build an intake with whatever length runner you want and if your car is turbocharged OR you have lots of displacement, you're going to make loads of power and have lots of fun. This doesn't bother me one bit. However, if you have the means to do so (space in the bay, ability to fabricate, etc.), an intake manifold with correctly tuned runners should be considered. It's not the end of the world if you can't make it happen to your regularly driven street car. I think most people in this community call any intake manifold with straight intake runners and a side inlet throttle body a "short runner". If you look closer at some of the OEM short runners (VW 1.8t, Honda B/K/D series, etc.) the runners aren't as short as you think they are. My brother machined some intake manifolds and did testing on a high horsepower Honda B series car and with longer runners they made better midrange power and similar/better top end power over a popular cast, shorter runner manifold while running less boost across the board.
Just my opinion, build your cars as you like. It's just a hobby to me, not worth getting upset about










My argument has never been that a "properly" tuned intake manifold will or won't produce more power. It obviously would, otherwise large companies like Edelbrock or Weiand wouldn't spend millions of dollars on R&D.
It's more like is the extra few HP and Ft/Lbs worth the money it takes to get there. The C2 SRI runs about $800. Schimmel's is even more, and I've seen the Wagner / HPA manifolds on eBay for about 6 - 700. 
How much more would it cost to have some super-sliderule science project SRI on your car, that would make maybe 15 - 20hp above 6K rpm and a few more foot-pounds of torque? Two thousand dollars? Three? Not a very good dollar-to-HP ratio there, is it? Even if you made it yourself, materials aren't free, and your time is worth something. (my time is worth something, to me, anyway)
Is that last little bit of top-end power worth spending all that extra money, when most of us are already making a couple hundred more HP than we could ever hope to transmit to the ground? For a hardcore drag racer, that money might be better spent on chassis tuning to hook up the power you already make. 
This argument got a little too serious a while ago, when somebody (allegedly) started posting MS-Paint doctored dyno charts and Photoshopped timeslips. 



_Modified by vr6swap at 7:50 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: (vr6swap)*

Here is an excerpt from my previous post. Underlining is mine.
"There are 2 issues here, but only one that relates to your question. Tuned lengths relate to the induction wave within a naturally aspirated engine, but matched length runners relate to air/fuel delivery efficiency. The former appears to be negated in a supercharged engine, but the latter may not be."
Just so every one gets a sense what that statement means, matched lenght runners really do matter in a N/A engine but in a F/I engine, they really don't, but maybe the do because Im not sure. If anyone has read my post you will know where that comes from.
And yes Edelbrock and all those companies do spend losts of $$$ on R&D, but not for our kind of stuff. A big V8 dosen't have the kind of induction system that's on aVR6, obviously, so you cannot equate what they are doing to what we have. When was the last time you saw a long runner intake or an SRI by Edelbrock? There ain"t no such thing.
If there is any one that can shed more light on the latter refering to aif/fuel delivery in a porper manner it would be helpful. I hope we are discussing this matter so as to learn something too, and not just "I wanna make me car go fast" mentality. And if you want to piss and moan, you don't belong in this discussion. A a man once said "...I need the facts..., only the facts".
I have a Shimmel. Yes it cost alot new. I got it used. It still cost a bundle. The VR engineering supercharger system cost almost what a GM crate motor costs. Everything that is in the euro tuning scene as well as in the import scene is outragiously expensive. If you want to go fast cheap, buy American Muscle, really. Crate motors out of the box bolt in with 5-600 hp for less than most VR6 turbo set-ups. Have you checked HPA's prices lately? You can't cry it's expensive if you want to play in this league. Yes it would be nice for it to be less, but it's not, but as we all know you can't have it both ways. Some one along time ago said, "you want to go fast? How much money you got to spend?" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by groupracer at 9:13 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (groupracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groupracer* »_
When was the last time you saw a long runner intake or an SRI by Edelbrock? There ain"t no such thing.


you sure about that?


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
you sure about that?









And the honda manifolds that outperform the edelbrock have even longer runners.








If/when I ever get my manifold done, I'll do a before and after pull with the stock manifold and I'll try to overlay the plots. Don't hold your breath because this is a long ways out, but I'll make a point of getting it done... if only to satisfy my own curiosity.


----------



## GT42r_Hatch (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
you sure about that?









prolly not the best designed manifold out there, but can't beat it for bang for buck (i hate to admit this)
This manifold below made 25-30 whp and close to 40tq more on prolly the worst test example possible. also spooled 300rpms sooner. The runners (including the velocity stack) are ~ 1.7" longer and are quite a bit larger at the opening (2.5") The plenum is also quite a bit larger.








I think with better testing there would have been more gains shown but thats all hearsay at this point. Next comes price.. $1000 vs. $300. For the average car is it needed? no but there is also customers who spend $7k on a transmission, $4k on a clutch, $5k on a EMS system, etc, or just the guy that wants a nicer hand made part. Its the same in every market. Look at the intakes the hardcore v8 guys run...has anyone priced out a Wilson billet one lately?...We're talking $3-$4k.
I also work with another customer that has the quickest naturally aspirated fwd street car out there (Tim Grey [email protected]). On his particular setup the manifold has much shorter runner ..very short but worked out very well for what he wantedon his setup. Stock is roughly 12-13".
'
I know what Leebro61 has gone through fitting up different manifolds, etc. While he has the engineering down, alot of the "perfects" simply aren't feasible from a fabrication or fitment standpoint, especially when his car is 2000+ miles away lol.


_Modified by GT42r_Hatch at 7:32 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (groupracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groupracer* »_
I have a Shimmel. Yes it cost alot new. I got it used. It still cost a bundle. The VR engineering supercharger system cost almost what a GM crate motor costs. Everything that is in the euro tuning scene as well as in the import scene is outragiously expensive. If you want to go fast cheap, buy American Muscle, really. Crate motors out of the box bolt in with 5-600 hp for less than most VR6 turbo set-ups. Have you checked HPA's prices lately? You can't cry it's expensive if you want to play in this league. Yes it would be nice for it to be less, but it's not, but as we all know you can't have it both ways. Some one along time ago said, "you want to go fast? How much money you got to spend?" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by groupracer at 9:13 PM 1-12-2009_

You can't cry expensive overall but unless your money is unlimited you can and should pick and choose how you spend your money. It's a limited resource and so $1k more here means $1k less there.
My contention is that unless your turbo doesn't fit w/ the stock mani, a Schimmel SRI doesn't make the normal 7k rev limit car any faster. If I wanted to go faster I would spend that $$ on making more boost.


----------



## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (groupracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groupracer* »_When was the last time you saw a long runner intake or an SRI by Edelbrock? There ain"t no such thing.

This is mine, the runners are 9.5" on average, flange face to runner inlet.










_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:30 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (vr6swap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6swap* »_
My argument has never been that a "properly" tuned intake manifold will or won't produce more power. It obviously would, otherwise large companies like Edelbrock or Weiand wouldn't spend millions of dollars on R&D.
It's more like is the extra few HP and Ft/Lbs worth the money it takes to get there. The C2 SRI runs about $800. Schimmel's is even more, and I've seen the Wagner / HPA manifolds on eBay for about 6 - 700. 
How much more would it cost to have some super-sliderule science project SRI on your car, that would make maybe 15 - 20hp above 6K rpm and a few more foot-pounds of torque? Two thousand dollars? Three? Not a very good dollar-to-HP ratio there, is it? Even if you made it yourself, materials aren't free, and your time is worth something. (my time is worth something, to me, anyway)
Is that last little bit of top-end power worth spending all that extra money, when most of us are already making a couple hundred more HP than we could ever hope to transmit to the ground? For a hardcore drag racer, that money might be better spent on chassis tuning to hook up the power you already make. 
This argument got a little too serious a while ago, when somebody (allegedly) started posting MS-Paint doctored dyno charts and Photoshopped timeslips. 

_Modified by vr6swap at 7:50 PM 1-12-2009_

this sums it up perfectly for me.


----------



## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (stealthmk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stealthmk1* »_
this sums it up perfectly for me.









x2. Somehow I missed that post but very well stated.


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (slc92)*

some doods are talking FI drag motors, some road racers, some turbo street cars...let's get on the same page here...
people...on the turbo street car, which i what i'm interested in..it's about maximizing the area under the torque curve...ie getting it fat and flat...i'm not interested in building a dyno queen or all out 1/4 mile tire shredder...drivability is king
i don't spend alot of my time on the street between 5.5k and 7k and i don't spend all my time in full boost...i LIKE bottom and mid-range torque and don't rocket around all the time running 1.5 bar...thus i need to compromise on runner length...my take is get 'em as long as you physically fit taking into account the most important factor: plenum size...


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re:  (dubdoor)*

Then get a 2.9 mani, or if you are willing to spend some more money a schrick. or a VSR-mani.(if you can find one)
I've got an EIP kit on mine, so my turbo is low-mounted(t4). Therefore i have no trouble with the stock manifold, but yeah i have to agree, midrange torque an power is more important on a street setup


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

What I'm confused about... A dual plane intake usually has longer runners than a single plane, correct? However, a single plane revs out much higher. I'm not sure why, but looking at it, it has larger and more equal ports. Then you look at a tunnel ram, and it has extremely long runners and it's the highest revving intake manifold for the V8 guys. Why am I bringing this up? Because if what I'm gathering from Foffa is true, this science still applies to our applications. 

With that said, when you look at the velocity of sound website and you begin calculating the inductive waves the higher you rev the shorter the runners need to be. If that's true then why is a tunnel ram so long? That would be a bad thing for inductive waves with such long runners, correct? 
And then.... you look at a Weiand Supercharger Intake and it has extremely short runners. I'm not using any of this as an argument, I would just like for someone to clear up this science for me.








Great post though, keep it going guys!


_Modified by Weiss at 8:01 AM 1-13-2009_


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

TBT I stand corrected. I was not aware they got into the market, however it makes perfect sense. BTW Is this for a turbo set-up or N/A and I highly doubt they will do anything for VW's. how much is it? Also, I see there is far more room in the engine bay of a Honda than a VR6, so there are less comprimises that have to be made.
My cotention is for N/A situations it makes perfect sense, but is not totally necessary in F/I.


_Modified by groupracer at 9:02 AM 1-13-2009_


----------



## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (groupracer)*

Porsche Can Am V12 TT?


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_People think that NA engines work under vacuum and FI engines work under boost, but that's only because people (mostly Americans) have become accustomed to the 'gage' pressure scale where ambient pressure (1 atmosphere) is an arbitrary zero and anything less is vacuum, anything more is boost. 

Indeed and I tune my engine using the KPA scale. 
However, I think it's safe to assume most of us understand engine "vacuum" as being the result of cylinders sucking air through a restrictive opening, creating a mechanical vacuum....._relative_ to the atmospheric pressure on the other side of the throttle plate. Most people don't care if that is 40 Kilo Pascals Absolute, it's still a physical vacuum. 
"Gauge" pressure makes perfect sense to the majority of us and is what we've grown up with. We don't really need to know that our 1 bar of boost pressure is actually 2 bar absolute. Otherwise it just leads to confusion. Some people would go round boasting they are making 2 bar of boost!

_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
Just my opinion, build your cars as you like. It's just a hobby to me, not worth getting upset about









The best things said on this thread so far http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *vr6swap* »_
How much more would it cost to have some super-sliderule science project SRI on your car, that would make maybe 15 - 20hp above 6K rpm and a few more foot-pounds of torque? Two thousand dollars? Three? Not a very good dollar-to-HP ratio there, is it? 

Yeah well said. It's all to do with the law of diminishing returns.
If you have 500whp to begin with, another 50hp might shave a 10th off your 1/4 time, but you're sure as hell not going to p1ss your pants with excitement on the road because the improvement is so small relative to what you had to begin with.
What I'm seeing here is border line obsessive compulsive disorder. A few guys convincing themselves an inch more length will make their lives so much better








And what I object to most about this thread is people saying "That dyno chart is doctored, can't be right" and then come out with "We use the best dyno there is". It's complete b0llocks.
Measuring power is just that, measuring it. Without a known accurate reference point, (i.e. a factory made VR6T tested to destruction on a proper engine dyno) who has the right to claim their power figure is accurate and another man's is BS?


_Modified by kevhayward at 8:40 AM 1-13-2009_


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (groupracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groupracer* »_TBT I stand corrected. I was not aware they got into the market, however it makes perfect sense. BTW Is this for a turbo set-up or N/A and I highly doubt they will do anything for VW's. how much is it? Also, I see there is far more room in the engine bay of a Honda than a VR6, so there are less comprimises that have to be made.
My cotention is for N/A situations it makes perfect sense, but is not totally necessary in F/I.

_Modified by groupracer at 9:02 AM 1-13-2009_

Edelbrock designs these for turbo and all motor. Cost is $489.95 in polished, I didn't see one in cast with the "LG" logo. However, these are just the Victor X series Honda/Acura intake manifolds, and they are as cheap as $353.95. I'm not sure if there are any differences with the ones stamped "LG."


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
I'm not an automotive engineer either... but I am a gas turbine performance engineer. Anyway, it's not necessarily the application (automotive) that is important but the concepts and background (compressible fluid flow) that is important. People think that NA engines work under vacuum and FI engines work under boost, but that's only because people (mostly Americans) have become accustomed to the 'gage' pressure scale where ambient pressure (1 atmosphere) is an arbitrary zero and anything less is vacuum, anything more is boost. If you look at it on an absolute scale, it all begins to make sense. 
On an absolute scale, ambient pressure is ~100 kPa - 1 bar - 14.5 psi (I rounded these down slightly for simplicity). If your car idles at -20 inhg, thats about -10 psi, or 4.5 psi on an absolute scale. If your car pulls -28 inhg off throttle, in gear, at high rpm, you are very close to zero pressure. The conversion factor is 2.036 inhg = 1psi.
Like foffa says, there is no magical switch that turns on when your engine inlet pressure exceeds 14.5 psi (absolute) because it's really just an arbitrary number. The only time that compressible fluids have a significant change in behavior is when the sound barrier is broken and you get into subsonic vs. supersonic flow regimes... but that isn't what we are talking about.
I can't speak for foffa here, but my position has always been that you can build an intake with whatever length runner you want and if your car is turbocharged OR you have lots of displacement, you're going to make loads of power and have lots of fun. This doesn't bother me one bit. However, if you have the means to do so (space in the bay, ability to fabricate, etc.), an intake manifold with correctly tuned runners should be considered. It's not the end of the world if you can't make it happen to your regularly driven street car. I think most people in this community call any intake manifold with straight intake runners and a side inlet throttle body a "short runner". If you look closer at some of the OEM short runners (VW 1.8t, Honda B/K/D series, etc.) the runners aren't as short as you think they are. My brother machined some intake manifolds and did testing on a high horsepower Honda B series car and with longer runners they made better midrange power and similar/better top end power over a popular cast, shorter runner manifold while running less boost across the board.
Just my opinion, build your cars as you like. It's just a hobby to me, not worth getting upset about









_Modified by leebro61 at 6:28 PM 1-12-2009_

Great post leebro61!
Btw im still at automotive R&D dept but switched to engine diagnostics 2008-12-27 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Indeed and I tune my engine using the KPA scale. 
However, I think it's safe to assume most of us understand engine "vacuum" as being the result of cylinders sucking air through a restrictive opening, creating a mechanical vacuum....._relative_ to the atmospheric pressure on the other side of the throttle plate. Most people don't care if that is 40 Kilo Pascals Absolute, it's still a physical vacuum. 
"Gauge" pressure makes perfect sense to the majority of us and is what we've grown up with. We don't really need to know that our 1 bar of boost pressure is actually 2 bar absolute. Otherwise it just leads to confusion. Some people would go round boasting they are making 2 bar of boost!
The best things said on this thread so far http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Yeah well said. It's all to do with the law of diminishing returns.
If you have 500whp to begin with, another 50hp might shave a 10th off your 1/4 time, but you're sure as hell not going to p1ss your pants with excitement on the road because the improvement is so small relative to what you had to begin with.
What I'm seeing here is border line obsessive compulsive disorder. A few guys convincing themselves an inch more length will make their lives so much better








And what I object to most about this thread is people saying "That dyno chart is doctored, can't be right" and then come out with "We use the best dyno there is". It's complete b0llocks.
Measuring power is just that, measuring it. Without a known accurate reference point, (i.e. a factory made VR6T tested to destruction on a proper engine dyno) who has the right to claim their power figure is accurate and another man's is BS?

_Modified by kevhayward at 8:40 AM 1-13-2009_

Most back their claimed hp up with both traps speed and boost vs deliverd hp.
As for dynos you can acctually visit some certified test labs.
Same as porsche and VAG and automotorsport.de and teknikensvarld use (used)
Just engines or hub dyno to get a better value then local nacho eating rolling road companies.
Im pretty lucky with having head office of world leading http://www.rri.ss http://www.rri.com close to me.
Most large companies now own this due to several reasons.
Much easier to have this in the test lab then nomal equipment .
And as for high power with brutal delivery it much better as i displayed at some of my visits to turbocenter test center that have normal standard type dyno.
The slip were horrible already at 440wtq.
Propably due to aggresive power delivery


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: (stealthmk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stealthmk1* »_ Porsche Can Am V12 TT?









FLAT 12 TT 5.4L
Believe they called it a 917/30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_917
EPIC CAR!


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (boravr6NS)*

Flat fan 12. Huge power! Was eventually banned


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

been readin this thread awhile..... here is my old sri Bolt on to the factory lower mk4....


----------



## boravr6NS (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_been readin this thread awhile..... here is my old sri Bolt on to the factory lower mk4....

































You selling these yet????


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (boravr6NS)*

not officially..... really labor intensive for what it is.... Dyno testing a different model at the moment, then i will decide wich way i wanna go..... Custom builds can be done for the write price though


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: (stealthmk1)*

Yes, I remember this engine very well back in the day. It only could produce about 1100 race bhp due to it's short runner intakes...









_Quote, originally posted by *stealthmk1* »_ Porsche Can Am V12 TT?











_Modified by groupracer at 9:44 PM 1-17-2009_


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (groupracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groupracer* »_Yes, I remember this engine very well back in the day. It only could produce about 1100 race bhp due to it's short runner intakes...










lol, yes because much like the 12v VR, the 1500 HP 917 motors also had shiitty head flow that sucks beyond 5000RPM. 








using that car as an example is a perfect way of saying " i have no real world examples, so here's a bagel"


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
lol, yes because much like the 12v VR, the 1500 HP 917 motors also had shiitty head flow that sucks beyond 5000RPM. 








using that car as an example is a perfect way of saying " i have no real world examples, so here's a bagel"









Not that it's the most on topic question, but what exactly do our 12V heads flow?


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (nubVR)*

@ NubVR
Nice sri!








I would sandblast your name on it instead of welding it, looks a lot cleaner.
That is if you are going to sell these


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (Weiss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weiss* »_
what exactly do our 12V heads flow? 

ya me 2 im curious, what is the VE of the 12v head?


----------



## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (Weiss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weiss* »_
Not that it's the most on topic question, but what exactly do our 12V heads flow? 

Bryan - According to Canadian Cylinder Head Technologies:
VW VR6 12V Stock valve size
Stock: 
INT. 148cfm @ .450" valve lift 
EXH. 137cfm @ .450" valve lift 

Ported:
INT. 176cfm @ .450" valve lift
EXH. 159cfm @ .450" valve lift


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
lol, yes because much like the 12v VR, the 1500 HP 917 motors also had shiitty head flow that sucks beyond 5000RPM. 








using that car as an example is a perfect way of saying " i have no real world examples, so here's a bagel"









I had posted an example of our intake. 917 was an example to display that short runners do make more power and are therefore used in high hp applications. As far as ****ty head flow? Im not so sure about that. Have you seen the valve sizes of those heads? You could flush your toilet through one of those heads. I guess the 12v vr does need all the help it can get though


_Modified by Bad Habit at 3:50 PM 1-18-2009_


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (pOrKcHoP bOy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pOrKcHoP bOy* »_
Bryan - According to Canadian Cylinder Head Technologies:
VW VR6 12V Stock valve size
Stock: 
INT. 148cfm @ .450" valve lift 
EXH. 137cfm @ .450" valve lift 

Ported:
INT. 176cfm @ .450" valve lift
EXH. 159cfm @ .450" valve lift

Wow, that's pretty bad.


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (pOrKcHoP bOy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pOrKcHoP bOy* »_
Bryan - According to Canadian Cylinder Head Technologies:
VW VR6 12V Stock valve size
Stock: 
INT. 148cfm @ .450" valve lift 
EXH. 137cfm @ .450" valve lift 

Ported:
INT. 176cfm @ .450" valve lift
EXH. 159cfm @ .450" valve lift

Link ? So to get the total VE of the vr6, you have to wat.. and them 2gether?


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (Weiss)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weiss* »_
Wow, that's pretty bad.









compared to what?
another V6 engine made by a different manufacturer?


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_
compared to what?
another V6 engine made by a different manufacturer?

there are lots of 4cylinder motors that flow more are than our 6 cylinder motors.


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
there are lots of 4cylinder motors that flow more are than our 6 cylinder motors.









oh ok, i was just asking. i didnt really know what to compare it to..
im not too familiar with cfm readings


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

Here's the reason for the poor flow... try to get air to flow throught that!!


----------



## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (groupracer)*

so get a 2.8 24v short block, and put a 3.2 24v head on it.
strength of the 2.8, flow of the 3.2 

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bad Habit* »_
As far as ****ty head flow? Im not so sure about that. Have you seen the valve sizes of those heads? You could flush your toilet through one of those heads. I guess the 12v vr does need all the help it can get though


There is no real debate there. the 12v has ****ty head flow. Even when ported to the max it's still terrible. you can get a Honda B head to flow more air through 4 ports, than a 12v will flow through 6. the 24v head is substantially better than the 12v, and the R head flows like 30% more than the regular 24v head.
Stock: INT. 148cfm @ .450" valve lift EXH. 137cfm @ .450" valve lift
Ported: INT. 176cfm @ .450" valve lift EXH. 159cfm @ .450" valve lift
for comparison. the 2.5 4valve motor flows
223/152 in/ex @ .400" lift








There is a reason that the highest HP NA VRs are barely breaking 220-230Whp




_Modified by TBT-Syncro at 5:23 PM 1-20-2009_


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
There is no real debate there. the 12v has ****ty head flow. Even when ported to the max it's still terrible. you can get a Honda B head to flow more air through 4 ports, than a 12v will flow through 6. the 24v head is substantially better than the 12v, and the R head flows like 30% more than the regular 24v head.
Stock: INT. 148cfm @ .450" valve lift EXH. 137cfm @ .450" valve lift
Ported: INT. 176cfm @ .450" valve lift EXH. 159cfm @ .450" valve lift
for comparison. the 2.5 4valve motor flows
223/152 in/ex @ .400" lift








There is a reason that the highest HP NA VRs are barely breaking 220-230Whp


so sayud


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: (L.I. Dan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *L.I. Dan* »_so get a 2.8 24v short block, and put a 3.2 24v head on it.
strength of the 2.8, flow of the 3.2 

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view










I agree, but it's also the challenge to make power from something that's not so good. The issue with this thread is what's best for flow and performance, SRI's, or LRI's. Well, each has there issues and short comings, but also each has there straights. Remember, ALL engines are compromises in function and application. While it might be fun to run a top fueler in my car because it has ultimate performance, it wouldn't be much of a commuter, or a canyon carver. So we make compromises in how we build and execute our cars engines for what each of use wants to accomplish. Or, in other words we all have a different path to the same place.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurobred* »_
compared to what?
another V6 engine made by a different manufacturer?

I was just saying in generality. My stock 1980's 8-valve SOHC Chrysler 4 cylinder flows roughly those numbers. Granted the VR6 was designed in the 80s... but still...It's European.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (L.I. Dan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *L.I. Dan* »_so get a 2.8 24v short block, and put a 3.2 24v head on it.
strength of the 2.8, flow of the 3.2 


actually the winning combo would be a 2.8 block, r32 crank, and r32 head. you'd have over 3.0L, thick cylinder walls, and a head that can flow big numbers.


----------



## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
actually the winning combo would be a 2.8 block, r32 crank, and r32 head. you'd have over 3.0L, thick cylinder walls, and a head that can flow big numbers.









Couldn't find one at the time otherwise, otherwise I'd already prove your theory true







Nevertheless, the BDF crank seems to put down decent numbers


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
actually the winning combo would be a 2.8 block, r32 crank, and r32 head. you'd have over 3.0L, thick cylinder walls, and a head that can flow big numbers.










Yeah when I build my motor I am going to try my ass off to get a R crank. It will be funny, I'd have the crank but no R head and Tom would have the head but not the crank


----------



## broke_rado (Nov 5, 2008)

*Re: (PhReE)*


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
There is no real debate there. the 12v has ****ty head flow. Even when ported to the max it's still terrible. you can get a Honda B head to flow more air through 4 ports, than a 12v will flow through 6. the 24v head is substantially better than the 12v, and the R head flows like 30% more than the regular 24v head.
Stock: INT. 148cfm @ .450" valve lift EXH. 137cfm @ .450" valve lift
Ported: INT. 176cfm @ .450" valve lift EXH. 159cfm @ .450" valve lift
for comparison. the 2.5 4valve motor flows
223/152 in/ex @ .400" lift








There is a reason that the highest HP NA VRs are barely breaking 220-230Whp
_Modified by TBT-Syncro at 5:23 PM 1-20-2009_

you said the 917 head flowed poorly? I know the 12v vr is junk


----------



## taydog (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: (broke_rado)*

Looks like you might want to do a bit more welding on that one.


----------



## broke_rado (Nov 5, 2008)

*Re: (taydog)*

i thought i could get more airflow that way.


----------



## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: (broke_rado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *broke_rado* »_i thought i could get more airflow that way.

haha! A joke, yes!!


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

how much do the r32 head flow..and what about the r36..anyone know that ..?could be fun to compare to the 12v..


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

It would be interesting to see how much more flow +1mm and +2mm valves give on top of those flow numbers. It's also worth spending some time ensuring the port flow is equal across all the ports because some heads had really bad port inbalance from the factory.
The comparison to Honda heads is a bit counter productive in my opinion. They are chalk and cheese engines. 
VW's initial design brief for the VR6 was purely packaging, not performance, hence it's comparitively low output for it's size. 
They put right all the wrongs with the 24V though, well, Cosworth did!You only have to see where Cosworth mounted the rear bank's injectors in the 24V head compared to where VW put them on the 12V to appreciate how far off the mark VW were originally......but as said already, the 12V is 80s technology and for it's time, it wasn't a bad engine....even if it was a copy of Lancia's VR4 engine








However, I can't think of many other naturally aspirated engines that can comfortably run triple the factory power with the stock internals?
Honda's design brief was max flow and high revs. A very different requirement. You will never see VW polishing ports by hand!!


----------



## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_how much do the r32 head flow..and what about the r36..anyone know that ..?could be fun to compare to the 12v..

PM PowerDubs, he can supply you all the quantitative data on the flow characteristics of an R32 head. need_a_VR6 is also very knowledgable. Regarding the 3.6 head, well, you sir are leading the frontier


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (pOrKcHoP bOy)*

coming along...


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

if only i had the same space ,as on the bmw i do this intakemanifold for right now..


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_
if only i had the same space ,as on the bmw i do this intakemanifold for right now..









that mani looks sick


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (vr6_Love)*

I'll be having a stocker VR6 head flowed pretty soon... on an SF600... this coming week? Both long and short runners...with and without manifolding...
Mainly in prep to see what I can do for improving the VR6 intake manifolding...


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

interesting.......


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_I'll be having a stocker VR6 head flowed pretty soon... on an SF600... this coming week? Both long and short runners...with and without manifolding...
Mainly in prep to see what I can do for improving the VR6 intake manifolding...

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif keep us posted.


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_I'll be having a stocker VR6 head flowed pretty soon... on an SF600... this coming week? Both long and short runners...with and without manifolding...
Mainly in prep to see what I can do for improving the VR6 intake manifolding...

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif keep us posted...


----------



## mk2driver (Feb 12, 2002)

*Re: (dubdoor)*

posting so i can look when I get home


----------



## GlxJetta94 (Oct 13, 2005)

Heres mine, HKK Motorsports, couldnt hold the camera steady I guess










_Modified by GlxJetta94 at 4:14 PM 2-17-2009_


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_I'll be having a stocker VR6 head flowed pretty soon... on an SF600... this coming week? Both long and short runners...with and without manifolding...
Mainly in prep to see what I can do for improving the VR6 intake manifolding...

did this every happen ?


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (GlxJetta94)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GlxJetta94* »_Heres mine, HKK Motorsports, couldnt hold the camera steady I guess










what fuel rail is that?


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (eurobred)*

mk4


----------



## GlxJetta94 (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: (nubVR)*

Yep. stainless too


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (GlxJetta94)*

oh nice, upgrade from the stock mk3 one?
bolts right up to the 12v?


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (eurobred)*

nope.... different mounting points


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (nubVR)*

gotta drill your own eh... nevermind.. lol i was considering it


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: (eurobred)*

oo come on its a nice upgrade i even got one for sale. look how baller it is


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Heres mine from juan, had the last cylinder tapered down abit.. should work out well - great work too


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (pubahs)*

...a little late to the party
























































and a hit of the bong for good measure...


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (dubdoor)*

doran, did you dyno yet?


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

well yeah..no...kinda...
the night we got it all back together bob threw it on the 'packs...
the free, used R32 clutch (darrenewest http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ) i put in last year...gave it up...slipping at 12psi, so no accurate numbers were put down...
so...i've got another used clutch, i know...i know...didn't learn the first time...but it tough to ball on a student budget...








the LSD and clutch are due for install by early April...


----------



## Tom Long (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: (dubdoor)*

Doran - SRI looks good! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_well yeah..no...kinda...
the night we got it all back together bob threw it on the 'packs...
the free, used R32 clutch (darrenewest http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ) i put in last year...gave it up...slipping at 12psi, so no accurate numbers were put down...
so...i've got another used clutch, i know...i know...didn't learn the first time...but it tough to ball on a student budget...








the LSD and clutch are due for install by early April...

What fuel pump do you have there? Mine is mounted in the same spot.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (dubdoor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubdoor* »_well yeah..no...kinda...
the night we got it all back together bob threw it on the 'packs...
the free, used R32 clutch (darrenewest http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ) i put in last year...gave it up...slipping at 12psi, so no accurate numbers were put down...
so...i've got another used clutch, i know...i know...didn't learn the first time...but it tough to ball on a student budget...








the LSD and clutch are due for install by early April...

ahh, thought maybe this was after the 'new' clutch arrived.


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_
What fuel pump do you have there? Mine is mounted in the same spot.

haha...my walbro is back by the tank...in front of the pass rear wheel...
any guesses on what that is...?


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (dubdoor)*

It doesn't quite look like my Bosch 044...


----------



## VRnasty08 (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: (PhReE)*

just a quick question.could you run a short runner intake mani on a n/a engine?would it pointless?


----------



## dubdoor (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (VRnasty08)*

Yes, you could...would you benefit, NO...you might gain a few ponies up top but would loose a bunch of torks on the low end...seach HPA CVP manifold


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: (dubdoor)*

Juan Mancera made this one for me
he also made me the MAF housing in the picture
Juan8595 is his Vortex name
he's a very stand up dude! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and i love his work


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_
if only i had the same space ,as on the bmw i do this intakemanifold for right now..









You wait till you see the new V5 intake manifold









_Quote, originally posted by *GlxJetta94* »_Heres mine, HKK Motorsports, couldnt hold the camera steady I guess

There is so much more power to be gained in these short runner intakes if people would eliminiate that silly ram tube effect.
The nicest manifold I have seen in this thread is Jesse's/Lee's.I really like the design and the way the plenum works.Lee you truly are shaping up to be a young aspiring Engineer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I hope you dont leave the VW crowd for the Honda/SUB's








If everything goes my way in August I will be placing an order for an Engine dyno where I plan to dyno test all these variables and prove what works and what does not work.If anyone here ever paid for engine dyno time they would see why hardly anyone gets products tested.IT IS NOT CHEAP.


----------



## vr6_Love (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
If everything goes my way in August I will be placing an order for an Engine dyno where I plan to dyno test all these variables and prove what works and what does not work.If anyone here ever paid for engine dyno time they would see why hardly anyone gets products tested.IT IS NOT CHEAP.









this would be amazing :thumbsup:


----------



## UBER KUHL (May 16, 2005)

Anybody know if something like this would work with boost?
http://www.hartleyenterprises....e.JPG


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (UBER KUHL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UBER KUHL* »_Anybody know if something like this would work with boost?
http://www.hartleyenterprises....e.JPG

independent throttle bodies and velocity stacks work great with boost. its just that most people dont want to spend $2000 on intake manifolds when our heads have such a limited rev range.


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (UBER KUHL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UBER KUHL* »_Anybody know if something like this would work with boost?
http://www.hartleyenterprises....e.JPG

What works good with NA (atmospheric pressure/ 14.7 PSI) works good with boost...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
What works good with NA (atmospheric pressure/ 14.7 PSI) works good with boost...

And when those plastic fragments spit all over his nice engine bay I guess he can say he was told so on the vortex?


----------



## UBER KUHL (May 16, 2005)

I would be only interested in the plastic syle plenum. I wouldn't do ITB's. I just like the idea of a clear plenum.


----------



## broke_rado (Nov 5, 2008)

*Re: (UBER KUHL)*

























Seen a few of them come apart under boost.


----------



## jDUB92 (Jun 19, 2006)

*Re: (broke_rado)*

Mine from Juan8595 Damn i wish i would of thought of the tapered log for mine too!







Hes some picks of it mocked up.up.


----------



## GOIN EURO (Apr 9, 2007)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*

**Sorry I'm using my phone to post right now and can't see all the pictures and half the other posts**
but I have an 01 12v vrt with the sh!t plastic mani. I'll ne building my own as well so could someone email me some pics&specs for a short runner PLEASE?







[email protected] (I don't know if it makes a difference, but I have 262 cams) my buddy has a shop and I have full access to his machinery so I'd like to take advantage and make a sri for cheap WITHOUT any trimming or relocating of any sort. So my main concern is the pitch angle off the flange to the "canister" part. Sorry if I'm repeating anyone elses posts but like I said, I can't read half this thread.


----------



## GOIN EURO (Apr 9, 2007)

*Re: (GOIN EURO)*

Anyone?


----------



## KTEC (Mar 22, 2001)

*Re: (GOIN EURO)*

pic of my Juan built SRI. Perfect fit on my cabrio running a euro rad support.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

i always wondered how the inside of that plenum looks, i've seen quite a few sri's where the transfer from the runners into the plenum has no stack shape at al, just a sharp edge.
Maybe i'll continue on my sri project i alsready have some stacks and a ground plate to fit the stock lower mani.


----------



## KTEC (Mar 22, 2001)

*Re: (pimS)*

there are no stacks. just a tube welded to a factory lower intake runner. There may some increase in performance having stacks but I have to say my car with that mani runs great.


----------



## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

*Re: (KTEC)*


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Bill Schimmel Rules!


----------



## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (CorvetteKillerVr6)*

i've got a juan manifold as well
























after wrinkle



































_Modified by VR SEX at 5:43 PM 10-14-2009_


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: (VR SEX)*

here's my Juan manifold, installed and almost finished.


love it


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

I recently ordered this baby in germany. S2 style SRI








I think it one of the better shaped ones out there for a reasonable price, i'm curious what the finish will be, a friend of mine had an other type of sri from the same manufacturer but it wasn't really finished, there was still sand inside from the casting 8P
But well i liked the price, (415 euro's shipped) so i'll just wait and see, i think i'm up to some good quality grinding time








But like they say, my car is Build, not Bought


_Modified by pimS at 5:36 PM 6-24-2009_


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

O yeah i forget, please share me your opinions on my SRI
I'll be making some pic's of the inside as soon as i get it


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (pimS)*

here is some pics of sri's I have built
























pass side tb








24v

























thanks for the good comments we try










_Modified by juan8595 at 9:28 PM 6-25-2009_


----------



## NastyBrown (Aug 13, 2005)

*Re: (juan8595)*

That is a nice 24v manifold. Who did you make that for????


----------



## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

*Re: (NastyBrown)*


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: (Radostormvr6)*

i must say there is power to be had for runner compensation on the intake and the exhaust side. Its not about max power it's about efficiency of the motor.

all runner length does is move power band. but for the vr6 u have unequal runners which is a natural problem in terms of efficiency.



_Modified by fourthchirpin at 11:07 PM 6-27-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_I recently ordered this baby in germany. S2 style SRI








I think it one of the better shaped ones out there for a reasonable price, i'm curious what the finish will be, a friend of mine had an other type of sri from the same manufacturer but it wasn't really finished, there was still sand inside from the casting 8P
But well i liked the price, (415 euro's shipped) so i'll just wait and see, i think i'm up to some good quality grinding time








But like they say, my car is Build, not Bought

_Modified by pimS at 5:36 PM 6-24-2009_

ouch ...one size fits all








Propably ~100whp loss between 3500-5000rpm








runners are tuned for 12 000rpm on that one and with no runner compensation.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

My Juan SRI


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*

whoa. that freaking much?








guess i'll just have to find out, if it really makes that much difference i'll figure something out to make the runners longer


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_whoa. that freaking much?








guess i'll just have to find out, if it really makes that much difference i'll figure something out to make the runners longer

Yes but it fits








Test it and see if you can live with the loss of power.
if you dont and get lots of boost lag try to add lenght to the stacks .
But test it first and see if you approve it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

ok, i'll try it out. 
i hoped on improving on lag because i'm losing more then a meter of piping.
i'm running my car daily / on the street so i would prefer to keep the midrange power i have now.
Meaning i wouldn't mind if a had the same midrange [email protected] 14 psi as i have on 7 now.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_ok, i'll try it out. 
i hoped on improving on lag because i'm losing more then a meter of piping.
i'm running my car daily / on the street so i would prefer to keep the midrange power i have now.
Meaning i wouldn't mind if a had the same midrange [email protected] 14 psi as i have on 7 now.


Piping lenght in an intercooler system is the smallest factor of performance.
The mass and gas speed is so high so even if you cut the system in half or go up an inch in piping its more important to have a good runner lenght on the intake for pulse tuning.
and to have a good size on pressure pipes to have as little backpressure and correct gas speed.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

ok.
Thanks for the explenation foffa








guess my runner length is about as short as from the SP log.
I hope to have it tomorrow or tuesday


_Modified by pimS at 1:18 PM 6-28-2009_


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Yes but it fits








Test it and see if you can live with the loss of power.
if you dont and get lots of boost lag try to add lenght to the stacks .
But test it first and see if you approve it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Bringing this back up, i installed the sri yesterday








You were right about the powerloss, boostlag hasn't really changed(0.5 bar @ 3.5k) it just that the power comes on later from about 4k, 
It's a shame that i haven't had the chance to get the car mapped, stock injectors really are to small to run anything above 7.5 psi.
I hope to get it mapped soon, first i have to make an 88mm MAF and adjust the intake from the filter to the turbo.
But thats all i have left to do except swapping the injectors, wich is an easy job now. i'm curious about the power on 15psi. 


_Modified by pimS at 1:15 PM 7-9-2009_


----------



## .SLEEPYDUB. (Jul 28, 2005)

*Re: (pimS)*

Heres mine


----------



## V.R.Lvr (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_









Where'd you get the w/a core?


----------



## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

*Re: (V.R.Lvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V.R.Lvr* »_
Where'd you get the w/a core? 

http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


----------



## V.R.Lvr (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm

Thanks.


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05JettaGLXVR6* »_









pics of the hood cut out, or gtfo...lol...nice


----------



## mk2driver (Feb 12, 2002)

*Re: (juan8595)*

any ideas for deleting the coolant lines that run to the throttle body? Also I am running samco coolant hooses and a C2 Short runner.


----------



## pancake1.8t03 (Oct 20, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

just wondering ifyou guys think that velocity stacks make a big difference in the performance of the sri and how they really work....thanks


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (pancake1.8t03)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pancake1.8t03* »_just wondering ifyou guys think that velocity stacks make a big difference in the performance of the sri and how they really work....thanks

In my opinion, what the velocity stack gives you is the ability for the runner to protrude into the plenum without causing as severe of a flow loss as just having a regular pipe in the middle of the flow stream. For that reason, you can fit longer runners into a tightly spaced engine bay. Hope that helps/makes sense...


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (leebro61)*

Don't forget velocity stacks also increase flow through the runners by lifting the runner opening off of the floor of the manifold.


----------



## VR SEX (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

bump


----------



## groupracer (Apr 15, 2002)

*Re: (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

Off topic, but what type of finish is that on your valve cover? It looks great! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## littlenr (Jan 23, 2002)




----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*

Euro rad support:








































http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by juan8595 at 5:07 PM 10-15-2009_


_Modified by juan8595 at 5:09 PM 10-15-2009_


----------



## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: (juan8595)*

Anyone have any pics of the racefab SRI , not really a SRI but prob the best design I have seen for the 12v. that guy crazydubman has his up for sale I tried to get it for my raddo but pretty sure it got snagged up quick


----------



## RedDevil (Sep 21, 2001)

*Re: (.SLEEPYDUB.)*

Who made this manifold?

_Quote, originally posted by *.SLEEPYDUB.* »_Heres mine


----------



## silver-16v (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: (RedDevil)*

any power gains seen with n/a engines?


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (silver-16v)*

nope










_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 1:13 AM 2-5-2010_


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_nope

Its never been proven but a few all motor guys run them.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*

w 288s ?
could be proven on paper


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (silver-16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *silver-16v* »_any power gains seen with n/a engines?

depends on the manifold. some will make more power, but most on here are poorly designed and will lose power.


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_w 288s ?
could be proven on paper


Fastest Street stock car runs a short runner right now.


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*

is not worth arguing with the power queens









_Modified by juan8595 at 3:46 PM 10-24-2009_

_Modified by juan8595 at 3:47 PM 10-24-2009_


_Modified by juan8595 at 5:28 PM 10-24-2009_


----------



## jity86 (Sep 6, 2002)

I could care less if i loose a few hp, I will gain 100 or more when my turbo kit is done, and it looks f-n bad ass


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*

not arguing, just trying to get it
i recently tried to figure out pulse tuning because i heard so many different things & most of them not nice
what i figured out is that the "pulse" travels @ the speed of sound back & forth in the runner, a little slower than in room temp, in ANY intake manifold, na or FI, regardless of taper or port diameter.
and to way overgeneralize it, lets say 
RPM X Length of Runner = 85,000 - i stole this
this doesn't mention the fact that we're talking specifically about the third reflection. 
the pulse starts when the valve closes & makes 3 round trips, 6 total runner lengths, to arrive back @ the intake valve @ the rpm seen on the dyno
what happens though is that the air is bouncing & when the motor is spinning slower, a fourth pulse also boosts, in a 33% longer period of time, 
and you get another pulse effect @ a slower rpm, a fifth pulse & so on
if we're using an intake with two different runner lengths, like the vr, we're gonna see two different specific rpms enhanced by them
and we do know the specific differences of runner length in the vr head too = 2.7" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
lets say a dyno revealed a torque peak @ 5600 rpm w an SRI
assume a pulse there, (although it may not be the third pulse)
guessing from vr sri pics, the two vr runners are about 11.3" & 14"
if in fact the front runner is 11.3" long: 
7500rpm x 11.33" = 85000 - third reflection
7500 x 3 / 4 = 5625 rpm - fourth reflection
in other words, if you stop @ 7000 rpms, your last pulse was @ 5625 from the front runner.
& what's actually happening just before 7500 rpms is the pulse is just missing the valve opening, & therefore traveling against the inrush for a dip in power before the boost rpm arrives http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
@ 7500, the pulse arrives as the valve opens - peak.
a little quicker/higher rpms & the valve is waiting open for the third pulse...

2.7" longer runner for the rear bank, same head:
6071rpm x 14" = 85000 - third reflection
6071 x 3 / 4 = 4553 rpm - fourth reflection
the rear bank's pulse in this example is @ 6071 rpm from the rear runner
rev it to 7500 or the show's over @ 6100



_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 8:15 AM 10-25-2009_


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Well, I see your discussion is very serious and with very plenty arguments. I want to now what is your oppinion about my short run intake. I believe is made by MTM.
I am using OEM cams, a Garrett T60-1 (A/R turbine 0,82 and A/Rcompressor 0,70), 525 ccm injectors (50 lb) and Haltech E8 stand-alone.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*

i wish some other pulse tuners would check my work since i'm noob @ this
both dynos have the same trq peaks so i'm guessing both are same intakes
i see torque peaks @ 4200, 5400, 6800 ?

FRONT
9139rpm x 9.3" = 85,000 - third
6853rpm x 9.3" = x 3 / 4 - fourth
5482rpm x 9.3" = x 4 / 5 - fifth
REAR
7066rpm x 12" = 85,000 - third
5300rpm x 12" = 63,750 - fourth
4250rpm x 12" = 51,000 - fifth


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_i wish some other pulse tuners would check my work since i'm noob @ this


IM foffa, im sure he will have something to say about your calculations


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

the intake manifold on the last picture is a hgp-turbo.de clone..


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*

Oh, yes, you're right! Is an e-bay clone, but I polished it on the interior (not like a mirror, of course) and I believe it is doing it's job enough good but I couldn't compare with OEM or other short-ram intakes. That's why I askd: what is the general opinion about this HGP (clone) intake?


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*

Looks like the Wagner Tuning one.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*

The portmatching is rubish, needs a lot of grinding


----------



## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_Looks like the Wagner Tuning one.
 Yep and here is the "original" sitting right behind me as i type this. HGP/HPA powder coated black, and it's for sale!


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: (crzygreek)*

NICE, but I don't see any differences between mine (the clone) and yours (the cloned) out of "HPA/HGP" stamp and the fuel rail supports/pillars. I hope just to make the same job.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corraptor_evo* »_NICE, but I don't see any differences between mine (the clone) and yours (the cloned) out of "HPA/HGP" stamp and the fuel rail supports/pillars. I hope just to make the same job.

There is no difference...
comes from the same foundry. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corraptor_evo* »_Well, I see your discussion is very serious and with very plenty arguments. I want to now what is your oppinion about my short run intake. I believe is made by MTM.
I am using OEM cams, a Garrett T60-1 (A/R turbine 0,82 and A/Rcompressor 0,70), 525 ccm injectors (50 lb) and Haltech E8 stand-alone.


































Dyno is lacking *100whp *at ~3800-4000rpm








100kw=136whp








On a GT35 or similar large turbo the rule is to pass 200whp well before 4000rpm on 2.8L


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

And, the reasons, are... ????


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corraptor_evo* »_And, the reasons, are... ????

as the entire post is about.
Runner lenght is to short.


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

foffa people just dont understand. runner compensation and proper runner length can make or break your high hp build. do it right or gtfo!! 


_Modified by Yetti 1.8t at 12:47 AM 10-28-2009_


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

Runnerlength wise, chopping up the stock manifold is probably the best solution, if you want to have an side exit.
I'll be doing that anyway, replacing the manifold i posted a while ago.
Midrange i lost a lot of torque and power, it runs like a v-tec now, crazy as hell on top end. but the chanses are that its probably making less hp on top end then it did before.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (rickyrunamuk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Flyweight* »_I really hope that someone does a short runner comparison complete with dynos. That would be a great help to the community. 

Did this ever happen?
11 pages of being told I am losing 100whp because I use a Schimmel intake, which I accept (because the clever maths go over my head!), but have we found a tangible solution yet?
Can someone point me to the CORRECT manifold and I will happily do some back to back dyno testing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (Yetti 1.8t)*

Or people JUST DON'T want to PAY to PLAY. You tell them a PRICE for the RIGHT product and they turn away


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_Runnerlength wise, chopping up the stock manifold is probably the best solution


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_Midrange i lost a lot of torque and power, it runs like a v-tec now, crazy as hell on top end. but the chanses are that its probably making less hp on top end then it did before

Huh?


----------



## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

nice work w/ the home made units!.....


----------



## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: (carsluTT)*









Still working out the kinks(no road testing yet)


----------



## vrtme (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Did this ever happen?
11 pages of being told I am losing 100whp because I use a Schimmel intake, which I accept (because the clever maths go over my head!), but have we found a tangible solution yet?
Can someone point me to the CORRECT manifold and I will happily do some back to back dyno testing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Compare against a standard manifold?

Forras can we see some pics off yours please


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (radoman57)*

Did Nub make that for you, radoman57?


----------



## ade007 (Jun 12, 2007)

here is a pic of my manifold 











_Modified by ade007 at 11:46 PM 10-28-2009_


----------



## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

Nubs welded it, my idea


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RipCity Euros* »_
Huh?

I have an S2 replica SRI at the moment, and i lost a lot off midrange.


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Did this ever happen?
11 pages of being told I am losing 100whp because I use a Schimmel intake, which I accept (because the clever maths go over my head!), but have we found a tangible solution yet?
Can someone point me to the CORRECT manifold and I will happily do some back to back dyno testing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I agree with this.


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_
I have an S2 replica SRI at the moment, and i lost a lot off midrange.

Ahh, okay. But the flipside customs (chopped OEM one) is also a bad design.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

pff
I think there's no sri out there that you can truly call good..
But i do believe something like the flipside is better.
any known dyno results on that type of sri??


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_pff
I think there's no sri out there that you can truly call good..
But i do believe something like the flipside is better.
any known dyno results on that type of sri??

my understanding of manifolds would say that the flipside is a poor design.
runners are too short
plenum volume is too small
no taper in the plenum
no velocity stacks


----------



## boostd12v (Jan 26, 2009)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

I am looking for a short runner, if anyone has one pm me please







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Did this ever happen?
11 pages of being told I am losing 100whp because I use a Schimmel intake, which I accept (because the clever maths go over my head!), but have we found a tangible solution yet?
Can someone point me to the CORRECT manifold and I will happily do some back to back dyno testing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I think thorough back to back testing is the only way to answer the "what if's" question. The problem is, a truly "good" intake (in my opinion) almost certainly requires relocating components which would make back to back testing difficult for those currently running a juan, schimmel, c2 or flipside intake. Since I've already done the relocating to fit my intake, it would be quite easy to bolt on a schimmel manifold and retune. Maybe when the time comes somebody will let me borrow one.


----------



## jity86 (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: (pimS)*

Here is my first sri, took me a few evenings to create. i will be replacing it sometime in the future with something better, but for now it will have to do.


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: (jity86)*









there's a quick pick of my manifold. hasnt been dyno'd yet and that pic doesnt do it justice at all. the manifold is runner compensated and the runner leingths are perfectly tuned to my cam and turbo setup. true velocity stacks and a 3.1in. inlet for the hemi throttle body. 
its on the car and feels amazing. manifold will be off the car in a week or two to get coated. it was build by Adam @ rrf motorsports. pm me for info if need be.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_
I think thorough back to back testing is the only way to answer the "what if's" question. The problem is, a truly "good" intake (in my opinion) almost certainly requires relocating components which would make back to back testing difficult for those currently running a juan, schimmel, c2 or flipside intake. Since I've already done the relocating to fit my intake, it would be quite easy to bolt on a schimmel manifold and retune. Maybe when the time comes somebody will let me borrow one.









Someone else mentioned comparing to the stock intake, but for me that's just not an option. 
I'm always looking to improve my setup, so the challenge is to find a shortie that fits in a Corrado, liberates the 'claimed' 100whp extra from the same boost pressure and doesn't involved cutting the front of the car up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif So to all the scientists on here, which of you is prepared to put your reputation on the line and supply me with such a manifold so I can do a back to back comparison?








Here is my baby, awaiting your attention and wanting to lose the 'rubbish' Schimmel intake that's tuned to 14000rpm


















_Modified by kevhayward at 3:45 AM 10-29-2009_


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (Yetti 1.8t)*

It's definitive a WAY better design but poor fabrication from what it looks like hopefully it holds above 20psi http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*

it's your done? have you sold any? that's the way to make them for sure. hopefully people will pay to get a nice Intake Manifold.
But what I will like to get straight IS, no just because you got the right SRI you will be making 100hp more. I got people making on a vrT set up from 400hp to 470hp USING c2 stage2, and now they think by switching to right set up they will end up somewhere around 540hp I don't think so!! what it will do is set you power band starting from a low-mid range and that's where you will see the gain= perfect for N/A set ups. Turbo Guys more trans to fix


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (juan8595)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juan8595* »_it's your done? have you sold any? that's the way to make them for sure. hopefully people will pay to get a nice Intake Manifold.


I didn't make mine with any intention of selling any. Honestly it just requires way too much relocation of components to make it practical to mass produce


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*

Thank you that was my piont, not everyone fits in that category or is willing to pay the right cost http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (juan8595)*

since pulse strength decreases with each additional trip, reversing direction & phase @ the plenum end of the runner,
i wonder if i could get the second pulse @ 2.5" longer than the stock runners @ 6700, instead of 7700 ?
mk3 420mm
would put the third @ 4470 instead of 5151
if i extended it @ the straights by the injectors
my passat has that much room before i hack it up
make a big hole @ 5600


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (juan8595)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juan8595* »_But what I will like to get straight IS, no just because you got the right SRI you will be making 100hp more. 

Exactly!!
So there's no point in 'paying to play' if there's no certainty then is there?.
All through out this thread, Foffa takes one look at a rival short intake and instantly dismisses it as a 100whp loser and made us feel like we're being short changed and missing out on something good. 
So by implication and all things being equal, the only thing wrong is the intake, right?
But now there are doubts. I knew there would be if reputations were put on the line








I don't want to have to say it again, but show me the perfect manifold and I'll show you the money







. Can't get any simpler than that really, can it?
The people shouting the loudest about how crap SP, HGP et al intakes are seem to keeping the quietest when asked to put their money where their mouths are. Same old story.


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (juan8595)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juan8595* »_ 

perhaps you could hook me up on a 2" thick flange, between the head & oe intake manifold ??


----------



## vrtme (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: (juan8595)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juan8595* »_Thank you that was my piont, not everyone fits in that category or is willing to pay the right cost http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

so why change from a standard manni?


----------



## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

*Re: (radoman57)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radoman57* »_








Still working out the kinks(no road testing yet)

I think we found a winner!


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: (dub_slug)*

it wouldnt be that hard for me to do side by side comparison with my manifold and the sp. would just need the one side of the intercooler piping. if someone wants to lend me one i'm more than willing to do the dyno time. unfortunately this would have to wait til spring til my cars back on the road. but that means we have time to find people willing to part with their manifold for a weekend.


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: (juan8595)*

it definitely holds above 20. pressure tested @ 40 and road tested at 25


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TBT-Syncro* »_
my understanding of manifolds would say that the flipside is a poor design.
runners are too short
plenum volume is too small
no taper in the plenum
no velocity stacks


The runners of the sri from the pic i posted are quite long..
2 or 3 times the length of an SP


----------



## rventoo7 (Nov 13, 2002)

*Re:*

would it be better to use mk4 12v cams with a short runner instead of the mk3 cams, dont mk4 cams have runner compensation


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: Re: (rventoo7)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rventoo7* »_would it be better to use mk4 12v cams with a short runner instead of the mk3 cams, dont mk4 cams have runner compensation 

our SRIs r tuning for weaker pulses & many more of them, closer together, like fourth & fifth, who knows where
the oe mk4 is matching it's cams to it's runners @ THIRD reflection
since sri loose that stronger influence, i think it's irrelevant to put rpm/runner tuned cams, in a motor design that doesn't need pulse tuning imo


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_
The runners of the sri from the pic i posted are quite long..
2 or 3 times the length of an SP

you measure from the valve, to the floor of the plenum. they may be longer, but not 2 to 3 times longer.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (Yetti 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yetti 1.8t* »_it wouldnt be that hard for me to do side by side comparison with my manifold and the sp. would just need the one side of the intercooler piping. if someone wants to lend me one i'm more than willing to do the dyno time. unfortunately this would have to wait til spring til my cars back on the road. but that means we have time to find people willing to part with their manifold for a weekend. 

And if someone wants to make me a nice manifold and ship it over to the UK, I'm more than happy to pay the necessary dollar and do some dyno testing








That's all I'm trying to achieve here but no one is willing







If I could ally weld I'd make my own, but I can't, so I have to rely on other people.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (kevhayward)*

i had to saw my tb off & move it out of the turbo way
you wouldn't want to see it
only cause i didn't have $ for SRI
i wonder what the nearest SRI to Kansas is ??
i could race them & report back


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL DRIFTO* »_i had to saw my tb off & move it out of the turbo way
you wouldn't want to see it
only cause i didn't have $ for SRI
i wonder what the nearest SRI to Kansas is ??
i could race them & report back

Do you use the ATP exhaust manifold? What size turbo?
I didn't think it was possible to use the stock intake with the ATP?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Do you use the ATP exhaust manifold? What size turbo?
I didn't think it was possible to use the stock intake with the ATP? 


i think it was Jett Attwood or Arnold at pagparts that acctually showed me some offset housing that fit with 0.82 hot and 0.70 a/r cold side.
so its possible but using a wack off center housing


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Hmmmm, not keen on messing with the turbo really, but thanks for the advice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I like the look of *Radoman57*'s but I need the thottle on the other side, which is impossible because of the chains / rocker cover


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Do you use the ATP exhaust manifold? What size turbo?
I didn't think it was possible to use the stock intake with the ATP? 


i got a used kit with tubular mani & gt40
although relocating the TB has already happened
it's not running yet so i probably shouldn't say anyting...


----------



## vrtme (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
i think it was Jett Attwood or Arnold at pagparts that acctually showed me some offset housing that fit with 0.82 hot and 0.70 a/r cold side.
so its possible but using a wack off center housing


pictures of you inlet??????????????????????????


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=2


----------



## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_Hmmmm, not keen on messing with the turbo really, but thanks for the advice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I like the look of *Radoman57*'s but I need the thottle on the other side, which is impossible because of the chains / rocker cover









\
My version of "Radoman57" 's will be done in a little while thanks to Nub. T.B on the drivers side, behind the chain cover......


_Modified by BlownGinster at 10:23 PM 10-30-2009_


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4628995
Using one of my SRI's (juan8595) and even knowing this is not the best design the car perform good times at the track
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
be careful foffa almost stepping in your shoe... lol




_Modified by juan8595 at 3:52 PM 11-1-2009_


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (juan8595)*


_Quote, originally posted by *juan8595* »_http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4628995
Using one of my SRI's (juan8595) and even knowing this is not the best design the car perform good times at the track
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
be careful foffa almost stepping in your shoe... lol
_Modified by juan8595 at 3:52 PM 11-1-2009_

Calculated numbers < Track numbers


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

Because every discusion must have a conclusion to follow, I have a great question for all the people who have many knowledges about intakes, plenums, ducts, presures, air speeds etc etc:
"How do we supply our engines with air?"
OEMs or .... (which one)?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corraptor_evo* »_Because every discusion must have a conclusion to follow, I have a great question for all the people who have many knowledges about intakes, plenums, ducts, presures, air speeds etc etc:
"How do we supply our engines with air?"
OEMs or .... (which one)?

OEM or Leebro


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

Is there a picture of the Leebro one somewhere? Anything hosted on Photobucket / shack I can't see!


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_Is there a picture of the Leebro one somewhere? Anything hosted on Photobucket / shack I can't see!

Lol, it's "vaporware" as some used to call it. I'll have completed pictures just after thanksgiving, if you're willing to wait until then. 
To answer corradoraptors question, you are feeding the engine air by supplying a difference in pressure, whether it be a static pressure difference (NA) or a total pressure difference (FI).


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*

Oh, c'mon Leebro! Don't start again







! SHOW US YOUR SHORT INTAKE!


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *corraptor_evo* »_Oh, c'mon Leebro! Don't start again







! SHOW US YOUR SHORT INTAKE!









You won me over with the pumpkin. I've posted some pictures of the actual manifold already, so I'll put up some snap shots of the CAD. I've since decided to run the throttle inlet on the drivers side, mainly for fitment reasons. As I said, I should have the manifold COMPLETELY finished and ready to bolt on around Thanksgiving time. I actually have the last part I need arriving in the mail today.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm really looking forward on seeing it finished!


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*

Well, there is some engineering here! Hope to fulfill your wish! Good luck! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_Lol, it's "vaporware" as some used to call it. I'll have completed pictures just after thanksgiving, if you're willing to wait until then. 

Sure thing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (kevhayward)*

I guess i can throw one of my creations in for the discussion....








First go.... did a bit of reshaping, wasnt happy with the step on the front...








































Almost 4liters of volume, long runners are 7 1/2"...... Havnt gotten to dyno yet....still working out issues with the new setup...


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (nubVR)*

Im luvin the TB flange.


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

Thanks... Its nice, creates options for the tight spaces of an SRI


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownGinster* »_\
My version of "Radoman57" 's will be done in a little while thanks to Nub. T.B on the drivers side, behind the chain cover......

_Modified by BlownGinster at 10:23 PM 10-30-2009_

Its coming.... sorry its been taking so long!!! Its lookin pretty sweet though!


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: (nubVR)*

Well, nubVR, I like your way! I hope to like (technically speaking) the others also!


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

verry nice mani Nub!
test it, dyno it: show us


----------



## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_
Its coming.... sorry its been taking so long!!! Its lookin pretty sweet though!

No need to be sorry....................my car is still up in the air while I do the suspension.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_I guess i can throw one of my creations in for the discussion....


I was wondering about unequal trumpets enclosed in a plenum and that looks great http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I've also had naughty thoughts of individual throttle bodies from an E34 BMW M5, also enclosed in a tapered plenum.....but the work involved is beyond me! The throttle response and torque should be pretty impressive, in theory








EDIT - Just noticed Leebro's CAD drawings using trumpets aswell, awesome work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by kevhayward at 6:06 AM 11-12-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_I guess i can throw one of my creations in for the discussion....








First go.... did a bit of reshaping, wasnt happy with the step on the front...








































Almost 4liters of volume, long runners are 7 1/2"...... Havnt gotten to dyno yet....still working out issues with the new setup...


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Nice!
Make sure to get atleast 2.5inch infront of the stack inlets


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_...As I said, I should have the manifold COMPLETELY finished and ready to bolt on around Thanksgiving time. I actually have the last part I need arriving in the mail today.









Can I quote you on that? oops, I just did


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (sdezego)*

lol, pwn3d








Believe me, I want it done more than anyone else, it's been a long time coming


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
OEM or Leebro

Or maybe... Schrick?


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*

love the schrick but with the variable vein setup its more for na that boost...


----------



## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

*Re: (Yetti 1.8t)*

I made this little booger a couple days ago http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
should do the trick 











_Modified by dub_slug at 12:23 AM 2-8-2010_


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Yetti 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yetti 1.8t* »_love the schrick but with the variable vein setup its more for na that boost... 

the laws for airflow dont change based off your car being NA or FI. If a manifold works well for one, then it'll work well for the other. the schrick has been used on lots of FI cars, and works great.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: (dub_slug)*

Thats just crasy, post more pics.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (dub_slug)*

i made this out of an extra TB, ho's & clamps
some steel bar stock from Lowes shaped into mounting brackets - camera super sux & would only take one pic http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: (leebro61)*

That looks awesome! Looks like a lot of effort and time has gone into this design.
What all is going on with your valve cover, leebro?


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (RipCity Euros)*

rofl, It's not my car, just used for mock up purposes.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_










Wow ...just amazing to see the finished product http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Make sure to update your project post in 12v forum


----------



## zornig (May 12, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Wow ...just amazing to see the finished product http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Make sure to update your project post in 12v forum

beautiful work indeed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Driverwanted (Nov 9, 2002)

*Re: (zornig)*

Function over form i realize, but i don't like it pointed down like that.... everything else about it - I love !!!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Driverwanted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Driverwanted* »_Function over form i realize, but i don't like it pointed down like that.... everything else about it - I love !!!!!

Basicly the only way to fit the "correct" lenght of the runners without moving radiator or fans like i did with my straight stack plenum.
He will also get shortest intercooler piping possible with the design.


----------



## Driverwanted (Nov 9, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

totally - i can see how it will allow for the best performance...
and the fit and finish on this thing is superb.... when do they hit mass market anyways !








EDIT - another bonus... getting at your vacume lines is now super easy!


_Modified by Driverwanted at 12:18 PM 11-26-2009_


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (Driverwanted)*

now that's 7"


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (Driverwanted)*

I agree about it looking kind of weird pointing down, but it really was the only way to get the runner lengths I wanted and to stagger the front and rear cylinder stacks without 'S' bends in the runners. I wish I took some better pics of the weld quality and the fitment, everything worked out really well though. I'm having it powdercoated to make everything look a bit more uniform and will post more pics when it's completed. Thanks for the feedback everyone http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## corraptor_evo (Sep 22, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*

A great thumb-up for you! This SRI is the field where the theory is welded with practice and imagination! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: (corraptor_evo)*

I didn't make this manifold but the design seems to be pretty good. It has medium length runners a pretty big plenum, and it tapers alittle at the end. The only things I don't like about it so far are the squareness of the plenum and there are no velocity stacks. The end of the runners are radiused very well but I think it could have used some stacks. 
<center>
<br /><br />
<br /><br />
<br /><br />
<br /><br />
<br /><br />
</center>


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (misc.motorsports)*

Im guessing that doesnt fit with a radiator??


----------



## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: (nubVR)*

I never tried but I'm gonna have to say not with a factory radiator. maybe a small honda radiator or something similar. I don't have any space restrictions so it will work ok for me.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*

I think I've seen that before. Is that the one that need_a_vr6 currently has? I think it has since been painted black. If not, it looks very similar. I think the car it came off of maybe ran a half sized radiator?


----------



## misc.motorsports (Dec 2, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*

yeah I got it from paul in a deal. It is still silver for now untill I sandblast it and paint it to match the block. here is the only pic I have of it in a normal car. 
<center>
<br /><br />
</center>


_Modified by misc.motorsports at 9:26 PM 11-27-2009_


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leebro61* »_










http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Very nice work


----------



## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (kevhayward)*

Here is the manifold Nub welded up for me. (sorry about the mess, the car is all tore apart and just wanted a test fit) Now I'll have the runner comp. back with a runner length more suited to the motor. I just need to throw in some cams and the motor updates are done for the year


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*

Glad it fit....i hope it works well!!


----------



## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

*Re: (nubVR)*

That looks good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Das_Boost (Sep 25, 2004)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownGinster* »_









that looks a lot like mine i had made summer of 08 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (Das_Boost)*

Mine is just has some curves







How did you like yours?


----------



## Das_Boost (Sep 25, 2004)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownGinster* »_Mine is just has some curves







How did you like yours?

i really like it a lot. the car feels and rives like a normal VR when i am keeping out of boost, but when i get into boost the car is just crazy...








here is the inside. i added a little collar to mimic the OEM round collar that is on my wagon to add visual aesthetic. i also used runner to keep the air flow moving tight and fast. i know its not a shortrunner by any means


----------



## Das_Boost (Sep 25, 2004)

*Re: (radoman57)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radoman57* »_








Still working out the kinks(no road testing yet)

any more info on this? i really like the design.


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (Das_Boost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Das_Boost* »_










I like that idea.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (Das_Boost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Das_Boost* »_
any more info on this? i really like the design. 

Ill answer for him..... Hes having tunning issues, and problems getting hold of the man that made the software, I wont mention names, not my place too....
couple pics of the build process....
plenum could have been more curved, but she should work fine


----------



## Das_Boost (Sep 25, 2004)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_I like that idea.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

thanks, the whole idea came up over some beer with friends discussing certain short runner designs and plenum size problems. the baffles were actually Kevin @ DTR's idea when him and i were making it. we used the same flow characteristics as an exhaust manifold; if you allow air to flow into a large "cavern" it will slow down, if you direct that air into smaller channels in the same "cavern" it will keep flowing at a higher speed. [ex: hence why an ATP exhaust manifold has more lag then a tubular style]

_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_couple pics of the build process....
plenum could have been more curved, but she should work fine

















i actually really like that manifold. i think i am going to use that idea on my next project, if that's ok. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
as you mentioned, i feel that it could benefit from more curves to keep the air flowing, as well as internal baffles to keep the air flowing equally across all 6 runners.
do you have any pics of the underside? specifically where the OEM TB neck meets the custom plenum?


----------



## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (Das_Boost)*









thats the only one i could find.


----------



## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (Das_Boost)*

The baffles are a cool idea. I thought about something similar, but thought they might mess up the pulse tuning. I think this intake will do the job well. Runner length, plenum volume should work better under 7500 rpm compared to my C2 short runner.


----------



## Das_Boost (Sep 25, 2004)

*Re: (BlownGinster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownGinster* »_The baffles are a cool idea. I thought about something similar, but thought they might mess up the pulse tuning. I think this intake will do the job well. Runner length, plenum volume should work better under 7500 rpm compared to my C2 short runner.

i never really read into the pulse timing... i know i should and that this thread has a plethora of info on it earlier on.
the runners stop before the internal trumpets so that if there is starvation of cylinders the air will flow over. it'll be a little before i build a manifold that is similar to yours, so you will have to let me know how it works. what is the volume of yours?


----------



## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (Das_Boost)*

My car ran well with the C2, but I'm trying to get the best of both worlds with stong lower midrange and good flow up top.....redline @ 7200. I want to throw in a set of 268's, but I want to see how much just the intake changes the car. I'll keep you informed on how it performs










_Modified by BlownGinster at 10:57 PM 12-6-2009_


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: Show me your VR6 short runner intakes (eurobred)*

My Luis (juan8595) made SRI. Just waiting for the last fuel rail bits to show up so I can finish up the engine. Ceramic painted it... mounted up the throttle body and my water/meth throttle body sandwich plate here.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (nubVR)*

i personally think the "runners" in the plenum may mess up the plenum effect
although the flow & pres drop of the oe 420mm may not be very good, it's worth mentioning that it should hit the second reflection, or another strong pulse influence around 7,500, for those using it with higher redline


----------



## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

Well, it still has the factory plenum area at the tip of the runners. That would help to equalize the flow again. It seems like it would almost function as a dual plenum manifold and ensure very equal flow across all cylinders.


----------



## Das_Boost (Sep 25, 2004)

*Re: (PapioGXL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PapioGXL* »_Well, it still has the factory plenum area at the tip of the runners. That would help to equalize the flow again. It seems like it would almost function as a dual plenum manifold and ensure very equal flow across all cylinders.

this is exactly what the design was trying to achieve, while also keeping the air flowing at a constant rate instead of slowing way down when it hit the manifold "body"


----------



## adaptorman (Dec 12, 2007)

heres the only one i could make to fit my r32 in a mk1 caddy , shame i didnt have any more room , as things are a bit tight , and had to make it from stainless , holds 21psi ok , 
















and one i made for a 12v vr6 
























and a couple of 24v turbo manifolds first r32
















this was the 2.8 24v


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

really no offence but..... what did you do? you've stolen darthvader's lightsaber and try'd to weld with it?


_Modified by pimS at 3:04 PM 12-17-2009_


----------



## VRsixGLI (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_really no offence but..... what did you do? you've stolen darthvader's lightsaber and try'd to weld with it?

_Modified by pimS at 3:04 PM 12-17-2009_


----------



## vrtme (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_really no offence but..... what did you do? you've stolen darthvader's lightsaber and try'd to weld with it?

_Modified by pimS at 3:04 PM 12-17-2009_

It does the job


----------



## mcdub (Jun 19, 2005)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_really no offence but..... what did you do? you've stolen darthvader's lightsaber and try'd to weld with it?

_Modified by pimS at 3:04 PM 12-17-2009_

bet he still welds better then you.
Good job.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (mcdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mcdub* »_
bet he still welds better then you.
Good job.

sure


----------



## vrtme (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: (pimS)*

don't think his using tig though. mig and arc welder. drive way build. in england
Id love a workshop like that, and £700 tig welder. 


_Modified by vrtme at 3:00 PM 12-21-2009_


----------



## GT42r_Hatch (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_
sure










Sorry, but I wouldn't be calling anyone out with welds like that...spend some more time in the shop instead of making fun of others work. I can melt metal together fairly well and i would not shoot anyone down for their attempts...usually try to offer advice, etc.



_Modified by GT42r_Hatch at 5:40 PM 12-21-2009_


----------



## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: (GT42r_Hatch)*

plus u got some girly azz arms.


----------



## vrtme (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: (dasbeast3.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dasbeast3.0* »_plus u got some girly azz arms.
















was thinking the same thing


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (vrtme)*

here is one more









_Modified by juan8595 at 7:13 PM 1-4-2010_

_Modified by juan8595 at 7:15 PM 1-4-2010_


_Modified by juan8595 at 7:16 PM 1-4-2010_


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (juan8595)*

Oh ****. Pm me on that one.


----------



## juan8595 (Jan 16, 2004)

*Re: (juan8595)*









Hope you guys like it the longer runners are 3"










_Modified by juan8595 at 7:16 PM 1-4-2010_


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: (juan8595)*

looks nice but doesnt look like there's enough compensation in the runners. i'm pretty sure the difference in the head in much more than that.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Yetti 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yetti 1.8t* »_ i'm pretty sure the difference in the head in much more than that. 

3 inches.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

2.7"


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

thats some nice work juan!


----------



## mcdub (Jun 19, 2005)

Juan why make the stacks like that,dont get why people attemp this wen 1000+ supras have reg runners all flat on the inner plenum side.
For exhaust pulses/cyl firing ????
good work as usual thow.


----------



## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: (mcdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mcdub* »_Juan why make the stacks like that,dont get why people attemp this wen 1000+ supras have reg runners all flat on the inner plenum side.
For exhaust pulses/cyl firing ????
good work as usual thow.

supras are an inline 6 pat, vr6 is a v meaning back bank is further away then front bank that's why runner compensation is required http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mcdub (Jun 19, 2005)

*Re: (crzygreek)*

figured it out

_Modified by mcdub at 8:46 PM 1-4-2010_
still would like to see dyno paperwork of regular flutted too the stacked.



_Modified by mcdub at 8:47 PM 1-4-2010_


----------



## iMAHLON (Feb 14, 2009)

*FV-QR*

Would a normal shorty be sufficient for a non "high" power build. I plan on making one for my mk4 vr, and want 400-425 as a DD. I am not going for killer #'s in this car, so... just need and want to know if i make a shorty from a spare lower intake mani, if i will do fine.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (iMAHLON)*

everyone else is doing it
you'll be just fine


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (EL DRIFTO)*

I'd be interested in seeing more pics of that manifold, juan http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## iMAHLON (Feb 14, 2009)

*FV-QR*

So how do people conclude on how to run the vacuum lines into the manifold?... I am in the process of getting my SRI graphed out... but not quite to sure on the vacuum line set up.


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (juan8595)*


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*

YO THATS SO CLEAN HOW YOU GET IT SO CLEAN IS THAT TURBO!


----------



## iMAHLON (Feb 14, 2009)

*FV-QR*

^^ lollerpop. fo REal.


----------



## killacoupe (Jun 3, 2002)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05JettaGLXVR6* »_









paint the damn starter


----------



## 05JettaGLXVR6 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (killacoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killacoupe* »_
paint the damn starter









I have no clue why its not painted lol. Damn near everything else is.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

Standard front engine mount with boost?


----------



## VeteRan6 (Apr 5, 2008)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_Standard front engine mount with boost?


maybe delrin or solid material hide under this stock looking mount ,just like mine ..


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (VeteRan6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeteRan6* »_

maybe delrin or solid material hide under this stock looking mount ,just like mine ..









Cunning! I like


----------



## dreadlocks (May 24, 2006)

coming in way late, since I haven't seen alot of C2 SRI's in this thread. Didnt pay anything for it but the cost to powdercoat, cant complain.. does its job


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

How's the c2 mani on the inside? runner compensation?


----------



## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: (pimS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pimS* »_How's the c2 mani on the inside? runner compensation?
 Nope, it's welded onto stock lower IIRC.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

hmm-k, but so is juan's ..
it's a shame there aren't any pic's around of the insides of most sri's, because thats what really matters.


----------



## dreadlocks (May 24, 2006)

I tried when I had it off but its horribly hard to get an inside shot after its already assembled. C2 would have to provide a cut-away shot for a good view.
If I ever get my hands on a scope cam I'll stick it in there








here is the only good pic I kept of the runners










_Modified by dreadlocks at 8:01 PM 1-15-2010_


----------



## boostd12v (Jan 26, 2009)

*Re: (dreadlocks)*

the one going on my BT VRT project


----------



## Snitches Get Stitches (Jul 21, 2007)

24valve short runner designed for the 2.8L, but modified to fit an R head and powdercoated black. Also, intake mani has been modified to fit a DBW 80mm Hemi throttle body. May take the SRI to my new powdercoater, as the black in the pic was done in the gf's dads oven and is not professionally done. We will see what $$ allows.
















And two shots of my recently finished valve cover, as well as my Swain Tech coated downpipe and PAG Parts exhaust mani for the 24valve VR. Sorry...just wanted to whore for a bit.
Build thread coming Feb./March 2010


_Modified by Snitches Get Stitches at 7:34 AM 1-18-2010_


----------



## burnn5 (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: (dreadlocks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dreadlocks* »_I tried when I had it off but its horribly hard to get an inside shot after its already assembled. C2 would have to provide a cut-away shot for a good view.
If I ever get my hands on a scope cam I'll stick it in there










holy crap. whats up ryan? i was wondering if you still had your vrt, havent seen you on wetdub for a while...


----------



## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

*Re: (burnn5)*

Got the Nub intake on







Still a little clean up to do. It idles and revs good. Need some nicer weather and an alignment to try it out the right way.


----------



## low fuel (Sep 11, 2008)

to those who are making their own runners, where are you sourcing the aluminum tubing bends, what size are you using? also did you make your own flange, buy it or hack up an old intake manifold and use that?
sorry for all the questions, just trying to get started with some decent info.


----------



## low fuel (Sep 11, 2008)

nobody can help me with a few answers?


----------



## 71camaro (Apr 20, 2009)

*Re: (KTEC)*

I'm watching


----------



## VeeRar6ix (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (low fuel)*

*Low fuel*, i got my material from a metal wholesaler... they do alu sheets, tubing, bends, even raw blocks of alu... I took my TB as a template over and had them laserjet me a flange... then just had the manifold assembled...




_Modified by VeeRar6ix at 11:21 PM 3-23-2010_


----------



## O2VW1.8T (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: (crzygreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crzygreek* »_
supras are an inline 6 pat, vr6 is a v meaning back bank is further away then front bank that's why runner compensation is required http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

How important is it, I mean USP motorsport makes 826AWHP on there 12v without the compensation and i dont see any problems out of it. just trying to get info im about to make my intake mani.


----------



## joerg_ (Jul 20, 2010)

O2VW1.8T said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *crzygreek* »_
> supras are an inline 6 pat, vr6 is a v meaning back bank is further away then front bank that's why runner compensation is required http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
> 
> How important is it, I mean USP motorsport makes 826AWHP on there 12v without the compensation and i dont see any problems out of it. just trying to get info im about to make my intake mani.


what i got told my jeff at unitmotorsports the runner compensation is nice in theory but doesnt really work due to the ports being different shapes so it doesn't do as much as good as people think. Also if you go for a runner compensated inlet to make it work you need a matching exhaust too. United and C2 both make up for the runner compensation my taking away/adding fuel. -3% on the front bank and +3% on the rear giving you an over all total of 6% more fuel on the rear bank to keep them running cold enough. Why he adds 3 and takes aaway 3 i don't know but it obviously works. Some awsome intakes in here though!


----------



## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

More OEM modified intakes... interesting ideas there. :thumbup:


----------



## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

O2VW1.8T said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *crzygreek* »_
> supras are an inline 6 pat, vr6 is a v meaning back bank is further away then front bank that's why runner compensation is required http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
> 
> How important is it, I mean USP motorsport makes 826AWHP on there 12v without the compensation and i dont see any problems out of it. just trying to get info im about to make my intake mani.


they use mk4 cams or at least they were


----------



## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

heres one i whipped up...it does the job. im going to build a proper one for this car eventually



















the whole set up is now in this car


----------



## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

so why not run mk4 cams on mk3 with a un-compensated sri?


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I think the reason people don't do this because then your stuck with MK4 stock cams. I am not sure if aftermarket cams have runner comp built into them.


----------



## Apsik (Nov 12, 2005)

Here is the SRI I have made

























I know those welds does not look nice & smooth (I am not a pro-welder) but it has been double welded than grinded (just a bit) and powder coated (black) and holds 40PSI.

What do you think about this kind of solution.

... I was STUPID thinking that it will clear MK2 radiator & FMIC. We had to lower the radiator a lot to fit the SRI  each emgine mount is custom made ... each half an inch counts


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I think the reason people don't do this because then your stuck with MK4 stock cams. I am not sure if aftermarket cams have runner comp built into them.


nope. although it is arguable if its actually needed or not.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

TBT-Syncro said:


> nope. although it is arguable if its actually needed or not.


Agreed.


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

Compensation is one thing, length in general is another.

Here's what an extra ~3" of runner length (red curve) yielded on a cammed all motor vr6. Both the red and green lines are runner compensated short runners.


----------



## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

I was commenting on the fact there are no after market cams with runner comensation. That is a pretty good increase in hp across the curve though, do you have the before and after torque curve?


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

GinsterMan98 said:


> I was commenting on the fact there are no after market cams with runner comensation. That is a pretty good increase in hp across the curve though, do you have the before and after torque curve?


I 'digitized' the horsepower curve and back calculated a torque curve then plotted it in Excel. Looks like this...










For what it's worth, the manifold used on the green curve has longer runners than most off the shelf vr6 short runners.


----------



## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

leebro61 said:


> I 'digitized' the horsepower curve and back calculated a torque curve then plotted it in Excel. Looks like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you mean, shimmel-short, or stock lower manifold-short.
It's nice to finally see a BTB dyno


----------



## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

pimS said:


> Do you mean, shimmel-short, or stock lower manifold-short.
> It's nice to finally see a BTB dyno


You know, that's a good question. I haven't seen a Schimmel manifold in person in a while. The green curve is about a 3.5" short runner (135), and about a ~7ish" long runner (246). I'm not sure how the Schimmel manifold measures out for runner length...

I guess my comment about the green curve having longer runners than most off the shelf manifolds might have been a bit premature, I mentioned that from memory... although there certainly are some manifolds available with even shorter runners


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The runners on the green one are a solid 2-3" longer then most off the shelf SRI's from what I remember.


----------



## jeanofl (Mar 13, 2009)

:thumbup:


----------



## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

I suppose this is the best place to ask this vs starting another thread. Of the off-the-shelf(and Juan) SRI's for someone who can't weld their own, which sri would be most efficient for my mk4 vr6T? From reading through this whole thread I understand none of them are optimal or ideal but since I can't weld, I'm limited to choosing one off the shelf. I guess which is least of all evils? Flipside customs is only 500 vs Juan quoted me 600. Is Juan's any better? I asked if he included runner compensation and he said no. He also said the only difference between his and flipsides is that his is ported and flipsides is not. Thanks for any/all help. I appreciate it👍


----------



## jettagli_guy (Dec 12, 2007)

ill post pics up once mine is finished... its made out of billet sexyness.. machined of course... my frienad may be making some more for sale... can be made for custom runners as well .. 

and pm me if intrested oonce i post them!:thumbup:


----------



## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

^^awesome. Waiting for pics! 🍺


----------



## vw-only (Feb 13, 2010)

Check pics of our sri 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/MigFab-Custom-Fabrication/130313090366611


----------



## crusinvw (Mar 8, 2005)

C2 Quick Flow in a Corrado. Solid front mount and a bit of trimming. Aftermarket slim fans only.


----------



## rtolay (Dec 14, 2005)




----------



## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

rtolay said:


>


 I know that car! Been a fan of it for some time now. Gorgeous color👍


----------



## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

crusinvw said:


> C2 Quick Flow in a Corrado. Solid front mount and a bit of trimming. Aftermarket slim fans only.


 The C2 ones are nice and have proven results. Ever consider the Juan Sri? I'm just curious since I'm looking for one for my mkiv vr6 myself(preferably plug n play so I don't have to swap fans, fuel rails, etc). EDIT: I must add that reading through this thread made it really difficult to choose one. It seems like none of them are optimal but I just want best non-custom one I guess.


----------



## stroker6pack (Aug 23, 2007)

*short runner intake???misfire*

I have a homemade VR6 intake that look like a Flipside Customs on page 1. 
Anybody have misfire codes from there intake?? 
I get the misfire on cyl #6 or at times #4-6, or at times #4-5-6....I tried every thing possible to repair this problem. 
My last resort is to make myself another intake manifold, but before that just want to see if anybody else had this problem... 

thanks


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## DMehalko(DM) (Nov 1, 2004)

Here was the first flipside customs sri on a mk4 (years ago), miss this car


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

stroker6pack said:


> I have a homemade VR6 intake that look like a Flipside Customs on page 1.
> Anybody have misfire codes from there intake??
> I get the misfire on cyl #6 or at times #4-6, or at times #4-5-6....I tried every thing possible to repair this problem.
> My last resort is to make myself another intake manifold, but before that just want to see if anybody else had this problem...
> ...


 Hmm...funny u mention this because I just installed a stage 3 kinetic kit with a mig fab Sri(same as Juan's) and the car is misfiring. Everything is double checked and installed correctly but it misfires. Never knew an Sri could cause a misfire. Do u or anyone know why an Sri could cause a misfire? I dont see how it could. Pic of Sri for reference


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## stroker6pack (Aug 23, 2007)

*Missfire??*



gti vr6er said:


> Hmm...funny u mention this because I just installed a stage 3 kinetic kit with a mig fab Sri(same as Juan's) and the car is misfiring. Everything is double checked and installed correctly but it misfires. Never knew an Sri could cause a misfire. Do u or anyone know why an Sri could cause a misfire? I dont see how it could. Pic of Sri for reference


 Which cyl is missfiring on you?? 
I think your intake is ok, the volumn chamber looks big enough to not have air turbulance. 
I think because my home made one the chamber is to small...3 inch & smaller when cut. 
I will try to post a picture.


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## stroker6pack (Aug 23, 2007)

Here are some pictures


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

seen that waggon at vag


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## gti vr6er (Oct 8, 2010)

stroker6pack said:


> Here are some pictures


 I see what you're saying...it's considerably smaller than the juan/mig fabs and the likes. Well I took it to the shop...they just said it was missing bad. Guess we'll see what happens next week. I'll let you know if/when they track down the reason. At this point, mine could be anything since I there's an enormous amount of new stuff put on the car as well as stuff deleted. Let us know if u figure out why.


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## stroker6pack (Aug 23, 2007)

I will re-design another intake manifold this winter, there is no rush for me the car is very drivable for now. 
I will let you guys know the results.... 

Johnny


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The carboard cutout version of that one but with the plenum up top was thought of in 2002 or earlier. The cardboard didn't clear the hood though and it was never made.


 I'm skimming through this topic and had to laughwhen I came across this post...


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Bump 
I am considering another vrt as i sold my mk3 of 18.5 years. 
I guess a 2.9 clone is not going to be the best choice for a motor reving to 7800 rpm and 288's 
I have considered an awic built in to an oem manifold like hpas r32 one 
Anyone done this on a 12v?


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Juan8595 or w/e built one of these.. 










No idea how it performed though


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

hyperformancevw said:


> heres one i whipped up...it does the job. im going to build a proper one for this car eventually
> 
> the whole set up is now in this car


:thumbup:


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## jussloozit (Aug 31, 2002)

Bring this back up. Nice thread. To keep it simple, I would NOT sacrifice midrange hp or torque to gain more at top end over 6500 on a street car. Just my 2cents. Anyone have any luck with schimmels ultimate headers?? Another pricey product with supposed gains as long as your not turboing.


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## stroker6pack (Aug 23, 2007)

*New intake update*



stroker6pack said:


> Here are some pictures


*Here is an update of my new intake....but i would say its a long runner not short.*


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

That's awesome.... way to be different!


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

Work in progress....


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## VWallin (May 17, 2010)

Built this one for my mk2 vr6t.


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## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

pubahs said:


> Juan8595 or w/e built one of these..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i want this....sooooo bad...












...and i always wanted to try a dual plenum intake...came out damn nice...


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## Boostedvrt69 (Jul 19, 2015)

92g60gti said:


> There's a C2 Quickflow on my car. You could probably get away with just taking the lip that sticks out on the rad support and not notching it like i did if you are running delrin mounts. However i was only running poly mounts when i had originally notched it. I wanted to be sure i wasnt going to have any clearance issues under hard downshifts. You will also have to run an aftermarket fan setup with one of these mani's also.


Your engine looks great! i know this threat could be very old but in hopes of learning what my next move is i have to ask you, did you notice improvement switching to the obx intake? what extra parts were needed? like a tb adaptor or a different tb cable? Thanks for any input I really need to help my set up out soon, my tb elbow is crushed like 20% from my turbo!


Bobby


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## black dubs (Dec 18, 2008)

Hi I see on a post a very long time ago about Sri and a pic of an inlet u made had what looks like a charge cooled vr6 12v inlet if so do u have any more pic's or details and also what fuel rail was used.









thanks for the good comments we try










_Modified by juan8595 at 9:28 PM 6-25-2009_[/QUOTE]


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## tmoura (Jun 27, 2006)

Here is mine from P-Motorsports.


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Wow that is beautiful. great looking build

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## tech2400 (Apr 4, 2003)

what everyone doing with the fan shroud clearance? its super tight fitting in my mk2 VRT with mk3 radiator/fans and passat front rad support.


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## mk4vrsix03 (Mar 7, 2004)

Made by Rothe Motorsport 










Anthony


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## Face_Plant (Jun 27, 2016)

Schimmel Performance short runner I put on my Mk4 12v not too long ago


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## Redlineman (Dec 1, 2015)

Not the prettiest, but hopefully effective.


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## stroker6pack (Aug 23, 2007)

Nice work, i love to see something different.


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