# Installed BFI Stage 2 Chip, ran great for 4 days, now idle problems & rev hang



## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

I had a GIAC chip installed, and went over to the BFI stage 2. Once running, the car ran fantastic for about 4 days. I was really pleased that the rev-hang issues (revs hanging up between shifts) were gone (when I let off the throttle, the revs dropped quickly back to about 1050rpm idle). Then a problem developed suddenly where the rev-hang returned and when coming back to idle, the engine will float between 1500-2000rpm for a few seconds before returning to idle. The rev-hang is much more noticeable now than when the GIAC was installed. When cruising around 1500rpm, I can feel the motor trying to pull gently towards 2000rpm. Intake system is clean and no check engine light. When I put the GIAC chip back in, it seems to run just like it used to (same amount of rev-hang, returns to idle quickly). Re-install the BFI chip, and the problem is back, even after clearing the ECU via VAGCOM (just to clear whatever learning sequence it does). Thus far BFI doesn't have an explanation. There aren't any vacuum leaks. I took the cover off the idle control motor, cleaned it with contact cleaner, and nothing appeared visually broken in there but it's obviously not serviceable. The only thing I can think of is the throttle body needs to be replaced, but I don't understand why the problem doesn't show itself with the GIAC chip installed. I can only surmise that the BFI chip is actuating the idle control motor in a different manner and the original idle control stepper motor can't keep up? 

I posted videos to exemplify the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6og6H0SHGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AkaxO9lUYM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6-QMbg7M8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPj1mwtx3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np7fesgM2H4

What the hell is going on? I'm super frustrated because the car ran the best it ever had for about 4 days.. and now it's all gone to **** again grr. 

-Patrick


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Yeah bro same deal here....I hated the revs when I first got it...then I got used to it....I noticed it also does it while cruising so I don't think its just an idle prob but rather am rpm prob....did u shoot a p0172 code at all? A few of us have...also where did u find a 3.5bar fpr for our motor? Alls I could find was the stock 3bar...and if ur not popping the code I'm thinking this could be the reason also do u like the bucking when cruising at low rpms and letting off the gas? Gives me a headache lol


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Also one thing I noticed that if u let the clutch in at low rpms it didn't hang like it did when shifting regular..low I'm saying around 800 or so...reg bout 1500...but then I would have to rethink when to shift so that got annoying too:laugh:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

if you have vagcom, lower your idle speed. There is no real need to be sitting at 1050 rpms for idle. Its only set there because _most_ customers are afraid of a lopey idle and the higher idle rpm smooths it out. This particular chip lets you manipulate whatever idle speed you want. I ran a 276 at 850 rpms and never had this rev hang issue once the ECU adapted to the tune. (play with the 10-132 values. Some ecu's take a value while some dont. Just add the lowest value that the ecu till accept) 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4590624-TECH-Adjusting-idle-speed-for-the-ABA


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

And I see by your mods you are running a 3.5bar FPR. Why? What is your AFR readings? There is no need for a street N/A ABA to need anything but a stock FPR.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

3.5 bar FPR found here:

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/1956/3_5_Bar_Fuel_Pressure_Regulator_New_Style

I don't have a wideband gauge installed, and I just recently starting using VAGCOM so I have to figure out how to log the O2 sensor voltage I guess to know what my AFR is. The reason I went richer on the FPR was because the plugs never really appeared tan like they should, always a bit too white for my liking, so I wanted to err on the side of too rich at full throttle. I could certainly try going back to the stock FPR perhaps that will help this issue somehow?

So far, no engine codes of any kind, system readiness all completed. 

Going to try lowering the idle speed now... god I hope that works. Thanks for all the input so far. Keep it coming 

-Patrick


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I would put that stock 3bar FPR back in until you can get an accurate AFR reading with a wideband. I never touched it in my old build and never ever had lean issues. Always had plenty of fuel WOT no problem with it. Hell, 1.8ts run a 3bar stock on boost. But its your car. :thumbup:


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Tried changing the idle value... it seems the only value to change is channel 05? Not sure why the in the thread you linked to it says channels 05-11. Anyway the value at channel 05 was 128, and it won't let me save a value any lower. I can raise the value and save it, but it doesn't seem to have an effect. The problem seems to get worse every time I mess with it... ugh

-Patrick


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

play around with it dude. I ran into the same problem. Mess with it until it takes.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

It's only channel 05 I should be changing is this correct? I believe channels 06 and 07 had either a 1 or a 0, and the others were not available. On the post you linked to, the guy with the 99 said he had to change channels 01-05 in order to make the idle speed change, any thoughts on that? I'm still not 100% convinced this isn't a throttle body issue but, I'll keep playing with the idle speed. For anyone else thinking of going with BFI, I'd think twice.. awful customer service, and when they finally do return an email or phone call the response has literally been "hmm, that's weird... let us know if you fix it"

-Patrick


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Like I said in another thread, BFI had this chip made for them by C2. They wouldnt know how to fix any issue related to this as they did not write or test the software.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Okay I got it to take new values (currently set to 90, was 128) in channels 01-05. The idle is definitely lower, but the problem is still there. When I'm coming to a stop and put the clutch in the revs now oscillate between 1900 - 2100, and sometimes it never settles back down. If (when stopped) I use the clutch to pull the revs back down to idle, then it will stay at 850 and idle there, but if I rev the motor a little, again the revs climb back up to the 2000 range and oscillates around there. How is this not throwing a CEL? Would it be worth it to return the BFI chip and head over to C2? This is really pissing me off now. 

-Patrick


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

ITs the same software.

Sounds like the stepper motor in your throttle body is pooched. Will it take a TB alignment from VAGCOM? Or does it give you errors?


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i had this same issue with my C2/BFI chip...it bucked at low rpms and when sitting at a stop light the revs would just start climbing to 2k and hang and then lower a bit and then raise. i just put the stock chip back in because i was getting crazy rich codes and started getting misfires and everything...turns out i had a small tear in a spark plug wire so fixed that...but the hanging idle and rpms remains a mystery. i don't have vagcom although some friends do but i bought some silicone vac hose and gonna just redo the entire damn vac system cause i've always wanted to anyhow and now is a good excuse. besides a catback exhaust i didn't have any other mods done...i cleaned the throttle body out nearly a year ago...tested the MAF and the ignition coil and some other stuff while diagnosing the misfires...i think i'll wait to put the chip back in once i get my ported and decked head and 276 cam etc in there...i'm due for a timing belt and waterpump and a big pre-winter overhaul anyhow so gonna try to cram it all in a weekend or late late night.

i wasn't as excited about the higher rpm because worried about a lopey idle with the cam setup but morseo because i have a hybrid poly engine mount setup and i would get some slight vibration at 800-850 (especially with a/c running at idle/stop) and was hoping to bump it to something like 950 to smooth it out a bit more. i will def be following this thread...keep us posted.

one note...even though the C2 chip sets readiness you still need to drive it around a bit for enough data to pop a CEL etc...so i'd give it some time after you set an idle speed and see if any more data comes to light from el computer...although i guess with vagcom you can monitor running stats to make sure things are in line too...


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Just purchased a new Throttle Body... will update after that's installed. I've been driving for a couple hundred miles now and the problem remains unchanged, still no CEL. 

-Patrick


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## Pry (Nov 27, 2004)

any update on this? I am looking to get a obd2 chip for my car, was wanting the bfi chip but now im not so sure, might just save the $100 and get the TT chip..


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i just realized you have a 1998...i have an early 1999....wonder if there is any specific difference with the 1998-1999 aba or ecu...? the radios are different in our cars and not compatible with the earlier mkiii's...also does your intake have the heater element/vac line/plug on your intake elbow like the mk3.5 cabrios? my SAI i think is failing or failed and wondering if that can also effect the idle and the c2 chip to hang revs for some reason. the rev problem seems to happen on cold engine as well as after warmed up...short drives and long...anxious to see if your throttle body makes any difference. thanks :beer:


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

New throttle body installed, removed the ground wire from the battery to reset everything computer wise, and I have about 150 miles on it since the TB install. Currently there's zero difference between the old and new throttle body. Last I spoke with Joe from BFI, he said he was working with Chris from C2 to come up with some ideas, but I haven't heard anything more from them. This sucks. I mean overall the car runs much better with the BFI (vs GIAC), no pinging, smoother power delivery, but the idle & rev hang is just obnoxious. As I said before, the first 4 or 5 days of running the BFI chip were amazing. When I let off the throttle to shift, it felt like the throttle actually closed, which was a sensation I'd never felt in this car before. The revs plummeted, and it made a nice noise in doing so. The issue then came on suddenly (can't remember if it was while I was driving, or after a startup) Now it's like I push the clutch in to shift and I have to wait for a second or two before the computer decides it's damn good and ready to close the throttle. When I'm pulling into a parking spot or to a traffic light I sometimes have to drag the clutch to 'pull' the revs back down from 2k to idle. I'm going to re-re-double check that I have no vacuum leaks, but I'm pretty sure it's the chip mis-directing the idle control motor. Any other chips worth trying or other diagnostic tests I can do?

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

funny i just email Joe and sent a PM to Jeff per tdogg and [email protected]'s suggestions...

i couldn't help but notice that at least 4 or 5 of us that have been bringing these problems up lately all have 1998-early1999 mk3's. i know with the radio and several other little things (sensors or whatever) that our cars aren't compatible with earlier mk3's or even other obd2 mk3's...is this a random commonality or could have some relation to the issues?? does anyone with earlier 1993-95 or 1996-1997 mk3's have any of the shared issues (rev hanging and rising, p0605 rom error or p0172 too rich codes)??

do all of you have your SAI deleted completely/properly??

just trying to add or point out anything...someone get me up to speed with what c2/bfi have been saying? anyone else PM Jeff and get a response?

:beer: :thumbup:


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## Minor_Threat (May 12, 2009)

I have a 276 cam and the stage 2 BFI chip, I idle at 1000 RPMs, but when I first start the car, I have no cold idle at all, my idle bounces all over the place, you actually have to hold throttle for it to stay running, but when it warms up then the idle stays at around 1000 RPMs 

thinking I might have a bad MAF sensor


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

To add to what BigV said: Remember when tdogg posted about how to change the idle speed via VAGCOM, there was a reply indicating that the channels that needed changing for a 99 cabrio were different than what tdogg had indicated. I confirmed on my 98 that channels 01-05 were the ones that needed changing to update the idle speed, so that seems to be another difference between some OBD2 mk3's and the 98-early 99's. 

Couple other notes, I'm running the stock FPR again, no noticeable difference. 

Finally, the idle problem is much worse with the AC on. To account for compressor drag the computer has to open the TB a little more to maintain idle, but this seems to really exacerbate the idle float. The motor is much more likely to hang at 2k and stay there when the AC is on. 

Joe (BFI) and Chris (C2) are working together to examine the coding to see if there's an error somewhere that can be corrected to help this issue. Otherwise more testing would be needed on their end to understand/correct the issue, which may take some time. 

I'd like to apologize for slamming BFI's customer service before, I shouldn't post when I'm angry. Turned out Joe was at H2O and wasn't ignoring me. He has offered me a full refund at any time, but I'm going to hold tight and perhaps I can help with any diagnostic tests to solve the problem. 

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

yeah does sound like the MAF...if you unplug the MAF (and leave it unplugged) does it stop the problem on cold starts?? 

do your revs hang or rise inbetween shifting or as described in this thread at all?? you still used original 1998 wolfsburg edition ecu and aba with your build correct? 




Minor_Threat said:


> I have a 276 cam and the stage 2 BFI chip, I idle at 1000 RPMs, but when I first start the car, I have no cold idle at all, my idle bounces all over the place, you actually have to hold throttle for it to stay running, but when it warms up then the idle stays at around 1000 RPMs
> 
> thinking I might have a bad MAF sensor


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i will also note that BFI sent me a similar email...the communication about not knowing if this will get fixed or how long it will take and offering an anytime full refund is very much appreciated...i know they spent money and time to have the chip developed at C2 and to support their products and customers this way is the right way to do business. :thumbup: 
_______ 


Patrick007 said:


> To add to what BigV said: Remember when tdogg posted about how to change the idle speed via VAGCOM, there was a reply indicating that the channels that needed changing for a 99 cabrio were different than what tdogg had indicated. I confirmed on my 98 that channels 01-05 were the ones that needed changing to update the idle speed, so that seems to be another difference between some OBD2 mk3's and the 98-early 99's.


 it's been 12yrs since i took a programming class (and i only took 1) but bear with me. i'll try to make this understandable. say you split an ECU into 3 variables...1 covers allll general operations and accounts for 96% of functionality, 2 controls one aspect of idle/throttle (2%), and 3 is the coding for another aspect of idle/throttle (2%). now you take an ECU and you map certain changes with it to adjust for higher/specific performance...its tested and developed with 100% compatibility. then you take an ECU which has the same 1 and 2 (or 1 and 3) and you put the same higher/specific performance mapped adjustments onto it...the car starts and runs fine except for an idle/throttle issue.....see where i'm going with this? if, when using VAGCOM on the 1998-2002 ABA ECU's, you have to modify different channels to adjust the idle versus 1996-1997 obd2 ecu's then wouldn't that suggest the coding is slightly different and wouldn't you have to change the programming in the PEM chip to match?? now the reason i made 2 variables for idle/throttle is that they have to have at least 2 (if not more) inputs....there's obviously the idle setting but that's different than the throttle adapt...and i'm sure there are other reasons the computer would "compensate" with throttle behavior based on other data its getting*. 

Patrick007--do you have access to a 1996-1997 ECU you can swap in with your BFI chip installed?? 

am i off my rocker for thinking this? does anyone have idle issues using this PEM chip on any ABA ECU other than 1998-2002 (or for that matter--NOT have issues while running original 1998-2002 ecu)? i think the most common CEL codes i've seen associated with the BFI/C2 PEM are p0172 (rich) and p0605 (ROM error) codes and are separate issues most likely.....although i suppose if the idle is wonky due to mismatched coding then a ROM error could come up and it could fault the computer into fighting and thinking its adapting for rich conditions*...but thats a stretch and beyond any information/data i've seen.....is there any overlapping consistency with codes and idle/throttle issues and ECU "years" (haven't noted part #'s)?? 

done with my ramble for now. thanks for playin. :beer:


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## Minor_Threat (May 12, 2009)

The Big V said:


> yeah does sound like the MAF...if you unplug the MAF (and leave it unplugged) does it stop the problem on cold starts??
> 
> do your revs hang or rise inbetween shifting or as described in this thread at all?? you still used original 1998 wolfsburg edition ecu and aba with your build correct?


 no i acutally don't have any hang or rise inbetween shifting. I just have the cold idle issue, I did unplug my MAF and made no difference, plus I'm throwing a current code for the MAF sensor


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

The Big V said:


> Patrick007--do you have access to a 1996-1997 ECU you can swap in with your BFI chip installed??
> 
> am i off my rocker for thinking this? :


 
I don't... if someone has an extra they want to lend me to try it out I'd gladly do that. I also don't think you're off you're rocker. There must be a difference between the various years' ECU's that isn't being accounted for. 

http://www.autotech.com/product/chips/10-215-352.html?fromcat=golf-gti-rabbit-mkiii-2l 

Notice autotech requires the VW part number off the ECU when purchasing the chip. Perhaps they have determined the differences between the various ECU models? 

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Minor_Threat said:


> no i acutally don't have any hang or rise inbetween shifting. I just have the cold idle issue, I did unplug my MAF and made no difference, plus I'm throwing a current code for the MAF sensor


 is it still the original 1998 wolfsburg engine and ecu that you are currently using??


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Patrick007 said:


> I don't... if someone has an extra they want to lend me to try it out I'd gladly do that. I also don't think you're off you're rocker. There must be a difference between the various years' ECU's that isn't being accounted for.
> 
> http://www.autotech.com/product/chips/10-215-352.html?fromcat=golf-gti-rabbit-mkiii-2l
> 
> ...


 Techtonics Tuning does the same thing....its generally for emissions and physical changes (SAI for instance) that aren't incorporated in all the tunes i thought...but asking for ECU #'s might lead me to think there's more to it and that maybe i'm not far off... 
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_13_252


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

I have the EXACT same issue as Patrick. My car is a *1996* VW Golf ABA 2.0 . 

Mods: 
BFI stage 2 flash, autotech 260* cam, evoms intake, msd ss coil, autotech 2.5" cat-back, 2.5" magnaflow high flow cat, & pace setter headers. 

Maintence & Troubleshooting: 
Replaced spark plugs, wires, coil, vacuum lines, pcv system, evap purge valve, distributor cap & button, maf, front o2, ait, throttle body, oil pressure sensor, oil is 5w30. 

ONLY code I am getting is the 16556 - System too Rich code. 

My throttle body is able to re-align itself every time I align it with VCDS. 

I have the REV hang and no my car didn't come with a SAI. Also, car sometimes dies in the morning whenever I crank it up from a cold start.


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## Minor_Threat (May 12, 2009)

The Big V said:


> is it still the original 1998 wolfsburg engine and ecu that you are currently using??


 yes its still the same motor, I have a different ECU because my original one died and wouldn't let the car run the ECU is out of a 1998 wolfsburg though


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

thanks GloryFreak and Minor_Threat....that sorta eliminates the ecu/year guess of mine...the 16556 code is the same as the p0172 CEL i believe...which often means MAF but we've all been down that road already...hmmmm...back to the drawing board. :beer:


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

The Big V said:


> thanks GloryFreak and Minor_Threat....that sorta eliminates the ecu/year guess of mine...the 16556 code is the same as the p0172 CEL i believe...which often means MAF but we've all been down that road already...hmmmm...back to the drawing board. :beer:


 It is http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16556/P0172/000370 and I bought a brand new MAF from german auto parts like a month ago. So that's not it.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

so fellas heres my two cents once again...as u guys might have read in numerous post bout this issue i also have the popular set up (intake, bfi stage 2 chip, 270 cam, headers, no cat, 2.25 exhaust) also i should prob mention i have a 96 aba no SAI with a OBD1 head..cause i got a sweet deal on it :laugh:..anyways my CEL would pop up every day on my way home so i would reset the ECU using my ultragauge...then shopping around this fancy online store (ebay) came across an "air kompressor" for 30 bucks...suppose to send more air into the chambers. sounded like bull so i bought it anyways!:thumbup::thumbup: its basically a huge vacuum leak if u think about it cause its lettting in air after the MAF(which i recent bought new from GAP.com) but check this out no more CEL....now i havent checked to see if our little friend is pending...which it probably is...its been a week CEL free so0o thats pretty bad ass...this is in no way fixing the problem...im pretty much fooling the o2 sensor cause im shooting xtra air into the chamber...BTW the little knockoff "kompressor" sucks in air like a beast...i hooked it up after the purge valve before the TB...sure u guys have somethign to say bout this set up but hey it works for me...also i was just told my steering rack is shot...i refuse to believe this so0 im gonna rip out the tie rods and hope for the best....ok TTFNeace:eace:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

PMed ya Patrick007 regarding BFI getting in touch with you


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

gtiswapped96 said:


> so fellas heres my two cents once again...as u guys might have read in numerous post bout this issue i also have the popular set up (intake, bfi stage 2 chip, 270 cam, headers, no cat, 2.25 exhaust) also i should prob mention i have a 96 aba no SAI with a OBD1 head..cause i got a sweet deal on it :laugh:..anyways my CEL would pop up every day on my way home so i would reset the ECU using my ultragauge...then shopping around this fancy online store (ebay) came across an "air kompressor" for 30 bucks...suppose to send more air into the chambers. sounded like bull so i bought it anyways!:thumbup::thumbup: its basically a huge vacuum leak if u think about it cause its lettting in air after the MAF(which i recent bought new from GAP.com) but check this out no more CEL....now i havent checked to see if our little friend is pending...which it probably is...its been a week CEL free so0o thats pretty bad ass...this is in no way fixing the problem...im pretty much fooling the o2 sensor cause im shooting xtra air into the chamber...BTW the little knockoff "kompressor" sucks in air like a beast...i hooked it up after the purge valve before the TB...sure u guys have somethign to say bout this set up but hey it works for me...also i was just told my steering rack is shot...i refuse to believe this so0 im gonna rip out the tie rods and hope for the best....ok TTFNeace:eace:


 
_WHAT????_


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Yeap still CEL free boys...another day went by and nothing....I should probably hook up my ultragauge to see if its pending but to be honest I'm worried about what I'm gonna find.... I'm loving not seeing that light POP up on me on my ride home....so if anything its just delaying it...but hey its a step in the right direction right?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

tdogg74 said:


> _WHAT????_


 No no no... 

This wasn't a "Oh my gosh, that's awesome" what. 

It was a "what the hell did you just type" what. 

I understood NONE of what you wrote. Especially the ebay part/massive vacuum leak part.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Lol ok to make it short....cheap eBay part confuses o2 by sending more air into the chamber thus preventing my CEL ...and gave me 33mpg to h2oi....I've NEVER had good mileage like that..I probably have the code pending buteace: aleast I'm not clearing my ecu everyday with my scanner....better? eace:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

post a link to that part.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/hks-power-compressor-fuel-saver-with-pressure-gauge-for-vehicles-37502 

Basically this same thing...but on ebay...let the laughing begin...cause this is vortex and I know what the deal is with funny parts like these....but screw it cause it works for meeace:


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

i have a 98 aba with exactly that issue..the rpms hang at 2000 rpms then it jumps up and down a few times before it settles at idle(i'm glad i'm not the only one)i have replaced the following TB ,MAF, FPR, new coil , pcv system, evap purge valve,plugs and wires , coolant temp sensor , all vac lines replaced and tested and all new intake gaskets...then i put the stock chip back in and issue is gone..which leads me to believe its a software issue.....but i will say this i was really impressed with the performance of the 268 cam and stage 2 chip and the customer service so far hopefully the issue is resolved and i can enjoy my car again:beer: 

p.s also get the P0172 as well 

ill be watching this thread closely


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

Patrick007 said:


> Okay I got it to take new values (currently set to 90, was 128) in channels 01-05. The idle is definitely lower, but the problem is still there. When I'm coming to a stop and put the clutch in the revs now oscillate between 1900 - 2100, and sometimes it never settles back down. If (when stopped) I use the clutch to pull the revs back down to idle, then it will stay at 850 and idle there, but if I rev the motor a little, again the revs climb back up to the 2000 range and oscillates around there. How is this not throwing a CEL? Would it be worth it to return the BFI chip and head over to C2? This is really pissing me off now.
> 
> -Patrick


 100% exactly my issue


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i have no idea what you said either gtiswapped96...you put a compressor on your intake elbow after the MAF or before? like a BOV for n/a cars? it builds pressure? so wouldn't that make the car run richer? or it tells the MAF its already running more and it then tricks the ECU into running leaner? i'm confused. 

BFI contacted a few of us today and they are testing some new modified tunes for the cars to see if they can eliminate the problem...very impressed with their customer service right now.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Installed the line after the evap purge valve before the throttle body...stock hose already had a t-fitting so I used that....just sucks in xtra air after the maf sensoreace:


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

gtiswapped96 said:


> Yeap still CEL free boys...another day went by and nothing....I should probably hook up my ultragauge to see if its pending but to be honest I'm worried about what I'm gonna find.... I'm loving not seeing that light POP up on me on my ride home....so if anything its just delaying it...but hey its a step in the right direction right?


 90% of the time i'm running rich, I get what I call a soft code that doesn't display on my dash...It is still stored in my cars ecu though.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I'm absolutely floored by that product. That thing is a piece of **** and a waste of money. 

What you 'installed' is a _controlled_ vacuum leak. :facepalm: 

You are probably unaware of this, but that isnt 'tricking' anything from your ECU. Any unmetered air, not measured as load from the MAF, will be compensated for when the ECU cranks up your fueling trim table percentages. Or until you reached your maximum and the CEL throws one of the P017X codes. Motronic ignition is way smarter than you think. Even trying to trick the MAF with diodes would only work on the open loop cycle. The ECU is always trying to keep stioc (14.7) fueling in closed loop, and it wouldnt be till you went into an open loop would you see any difference. I could see this working on a MAP-based system, like a Honda (this _is_ an HKS product after all). 

That being said..... 

I have no idea why something as stupid as this is keeping your CEL off. I would be curious to see what your short and long term fueling tables look like right now. I would bet that this...device...is only a short term band-aid and once your fuel trims are adjusted to compensate for the vacuum leak, you will get a CEL. I just cannot accept this as a 'fix' for this issue.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Like I said in my previous post I'm completely aware that this *is* a vacuum leak....I also know that what I bought *is* a knock off hks part..if I woulda found one that had a big German flag stamped on it I woulda gotten that instead...I've tried everything imaginable to get rid of that code including pm'ing u numerous times about this code without any luck(which I'm not blaming u for cause I'm sure u get tons of messages about technical stuff) so I've gone with less traditional methods....now I'm not asking for any1 to "accept" what I did cause at the end of the day its my car and I'm the one that's gotta fix it....it just turns out that now my CEL won't come on everyday after I "installed" this knockoff ebay "controlled vacuum leak"....no sense in pointing fingers and laughing at the dude trying to figure his sh*t out... 

With that being said.... 
I'm not here to knock on no one especially tdoggs cause he does help a lot of people here on vortex...I'm just trying to do my part in fixing a problem that a bunch of us are havingeace:eace:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

My point was, you didn't fix anything. If you were getting a CEL every day, there is a HUGE issue within your system, either being fueling (MAF/O2) or vacuum related. 

What was the code you tripped every day? 
How do you know you were running too rich? Do you have a wideband AFR gauge? Or maybe VAGCOM printouts? 

Not trying to be a hard-ass, just trying to figure this out.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

P0172 bank 1 sensor 1 too rich...popped it everyday new maf new o2 sensor and can't find a vacuum leak anywhere other than the obvious one I have now....I would give u some VAG_COM info but to be honest I can't work it 100%. I only mess around with it when I try to adjust my tb....get pretty bad city mileage but great highway...she was giving me 33 mpg on the way to OC which I've never seen before


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

And as far as my a/f gauge goes its divided into three parts lean,stoich,and rich....and most of the time it jumps from lean to rich back and forth like crazy, fluctuates a lot. Used an old school o2 sensor to hook it up(single wire type brand new)....I had an xtra Bung in my system so I figured y not, I really didnt wanna tap in to the factory o2 sensor wire


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

That dithering back and forth is normal on a narrowband AFR gauge. Narrow band AFR gauges are useles when it comes to anything specific...they are just a pretty light show. It wont give you any specific info on how your fueling is doing.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Yeah ill agree with that...its just the wideband was 300 and I was told thats used more for guys running boost which I don't have(yet)....there's really nothing else I can check or change to make sense of all of this but then again ive always got crappy mileage even before all my mods but no CEL ...I'm guessing the more aggressive tune just made the problem more visible for the ecu?..these are all "maybes" and "ifs" Ofcourse..going out on a limb if u will


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Widebands are useful regardless. Its the only accurate way to relay your fueling. You can get an AEM UEGO for under $200 shipped on Ebay. Its right up there in usefulness as your scanner gauge. 

The crappy city, but good hwy mpgs tells me that you closed loop is fine, but once you go into open loop, you have massive issues. 

Have you checked your fueling system yet? Injectors and fuel filter? Almost sounds like a stuck/clogged injector.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

New injectors new fuel filter...I thought about swapping in a brand new ecu...haven't pulled that trigger yet tho


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

New fpr as well...u name it I've changed it...except the ecu like I said


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

you put in ABA injectors right? (just checking) 

Im stumped. P0172 is related to these in order 

Bad/dirty MAF 
Vacuum leak 
injector issues 

The code trips after you exceed the mazimum percentages adjusted on the short and long term fuel trims. But you replaced everything. 

Have you swapped the stock chip back in to see what happens?


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Stock chip=no code but sh*tty city mileage...u think maybe ecu's shot?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

No, I think there is something not right with your engine.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Tell me about it...I thought maybe piston rings? How's about I just drop in a Porsche 3.6 engine? Seen a mark3 with one in at h2oi...wow


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Thats just the VW 3.6 V6. Its shared through a lot of platforms. 

So this thread doesnt get derailed any further, my advice to you would be to remove both the vacuum leak device and the PEM. Run the stock chip and diagnose from there. There is something significantly wrong with your motor. Remove the questionable variables and go from there.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Will do:thumbup:


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

I haven't posted in a liit, but keep giong back and forth through PM's with some of the guys in the thread. 

I've also still got the p0172 code ('98 wolfie 5spd) on the car with the chip installed. I also get the same idle issues, I did adjust my idle down from the ~1050-1100 the chip came set with (did that this weekend). I have it set at ~925, and in order to adjust it I had to modify channel 01, but the others did not cause a change in idle speed. (channels 02-05) 

Looking at the vagcom screen I can see it's saying roughly -7% lambda numbers, I've already tried 2 sets of injectors, 2 maf's, 2 throttle bodies, new upper intake gasket (valve cover and throttle body too), plugs (different gaps and types also) , wires, cap & rotor, fuel filter, fpr, front o2 sensor (rear sensor is currently absent), coolant sensors, new intake elbow, new pcv & grommit, oil pressure sensors, etc. etc. etc. 

I've replaced all the vacuum lines I could find over a period of time, tried 2 different purge valves as well. I'm sure there is more that I've done, but can't think of it all off the top of my head. I've been trying to figure this one out for a very long time now. (I had another thread) 

The car is not as strong as it was when I first put the chip in, I think the full power lasted roughly 1 week after putting the chip in at H2Oi 2010. The idle and weird hesitation got on my nerves at one point that I just went back to stock for quite a while. I've had the chip in for months now, and the full power isn't there that once was. The car doesn't run bad or anything like that, it runs like say stock power or about that, but VERY noticeably lower from the first day I put the chip in. Always running 92-93oct as well. 

@ Travis, 

If you want I can do some logging or supply _whatever_ vagcom data you want if that'll help solve this for us all. 


Kei 

(I'm also MORE than willing to be a guinea pig for a new flash as well) 

*EDIT:* I forgot to mention that I also get that random stalling at idle too sometimes (it's been a while though), but it will act like it's about to cut out at the strangest times randomly...actually that part happened again today


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## Pry (Nov 27, 2004)

I had the exact same issue with my C2 chip and bbm supercharger setup, I just always figured it was because of the s/c and the position of the throttle body. When I put the throttle body on the intake it would stop doing it. It was exactly how you guys describe it though, random idle hanging/raising between 1-2k rpms when coming to a stop. Never had that problem with early non-c2 chips but they also ran like crap and stalled out constantly, the c2 chip was such a drastic improvement that I never bothered to mention it. 

Good luck figuring this out.


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Weird Update: Just for experimentation purposes, I ran 89 octane today and the car seemed to do actually better for some reason. Power felt like it was there and "almost" no throttle lag. It almost feels like the car has more power with 89 vs 93. Just an experimentation.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Interesting, are you sure it wasn't just a placebo effect? That would be interesting if it was indeed a noticable difference in dong that. 

Kei


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I ran lower octane in the winter and never noticed a difference.


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

ive got a 98 jetta as well and have the same problem. ive got a 276 cam in there. the random rpms going up and down between 1500 and 2000 untill it eventually settles to 1050. also have a cel for running to rich and im also getting very crappy city mileage, yet amazing highway mileage. i know my maf is bad, kept cleaning it but the code keeps coming back, and i have a brand new vdo brand throttle body. any ideas? i noticed the crappy mileage when i went from my autotech chip to the stage 2 pem. from what i understand, the pem is like a fineley tuned machine that even the smallest kink will throw it off because it demands a lot from all the sensors readings.


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

tdogg74 said:


> Thats just the VW 3.6 V6. Its shared through a lot of platforms.
> 
> So this thread doesnt get derailed any further, my advice to you would be to remove both the vacuum leak device and the PEM. Run the stock chip and diagnose from there. There is something significantly wrong with your motor. Remove the questionable variables and go from there.


 soild advice....lets get this thread back on topic :thumbup::beer:


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

i have been having all these problems that all of you are talking about (P0172,car shutting off during warm up cycle, also while driving :banghead: ) 
the code only came up whenever the chip was installed which is weird.. 
anyway, i sent out my ecu and chip over to c2 motorsports so they can check out whats wrong with it. 
once i get an answer from them ill post it up on the thread.. maybe its the same problem for all of us who knows....


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

cm123 said:


> i have been having all these problems that all of you are talking about (P0172,car shutting off during warm up cycle, also while driving :banghead: )
> the code only came up whenever the chip was installed which is weird..
> anyway, i sent out my ecu and chip over to c2 motorsports so they can check out whats wrong with it.
> once i get an answer from them ill post it up on the thread.. maybe its the same problem for all of us who knows....


 the rev hang is the major issue is it not?


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

bluntman220 said:


> the rev hang is the major issue is it not?


 i think they're all important issues----cant pass inspection with a CEL...engine shutting off is no bueno on warm up or randomly while driving even worse. the rev hang is annoying and the jumpy or bucking throttle at lower rpms is just as frustrating. hopefully we'll get to the bottom of it all soon!


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

I live about 2 hours from BFI in NC. I could drive up there on a Saturday or something if they needed a vehicle with the exact same symptoms we all are having to try and get this resolved.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

^^kudos to u:thumbup::thumbup:


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

if i wasnt 4400km away from my car i would mail my ECU to C2 as well.....the cars stored intill may .................but ill be home around x-mas if u need another to troubleshoot:beer::beer::beer: 

lets get this fixed 



zach


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

gtiswapped96 said:


> ^^kudos to u:thumbup::thumbup:


 x2


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Just a quick question, has anyone changed the vacuum lines under their fenders? For the evap system on the left and the vacuum reservoir on the right? I haven't yet cause I haven't taken my fenders off yet. I have changed all other ones under the hood though.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

u dont need to take off the fender just the splashguard under it...take the wheel off then the liner....i checked mine to0 and they were fine but give it a shot:thumbup::thumbup:


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Will do, thanks man!  .


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

hopefully should be getting a phone call from c2 today regarding the ecu/chip issue..
will let you guys know :thumbup:


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

cm123 said:


> hopefully should be getting a phone call from c2 today regarding the ecu/chip issue..
> will let you guys know :thumbup:


Can you ask them if they need a tester with the same symptoms? Don't know where c2 is located but I am close to bfi.


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

GloryFreak said:


> Can you ask them if they need a tester with the same symptoms? Don't know where c2 is located but I am close to bfi.


c2 is in Louisville Kentucky... they havent given me a call back yet


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

*info from Chris over @ c2*

ok so I just got off the phone with chris from c2 motorsports. He told me that chip I had ran fine as well as the ecu. He actually helped me out and gave me a deal of swapping my chip with a brand new chip for $50 to see if it will work or not. I told him about this thread that we have going on about all our issues and said he's gonna take a look at it to see what other issues are going on with it. As fas as people willing to drive over to c2 to show them there car with the symptoms he said that would be great that way they can figure out exactly what the problem is.

once I get the ecu back from them I'll try it out and see what happens.
I will be keeping you guys posted on this :thumbup:


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

how many of us are having problems with a stage1 chip and how many of us are having problems with stage2?
that way they can get a better idea.. its on a 2liter regardless

my problem is with a stage1 chip


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

cm123 said:


> how many of us are having problems with a stage1 chip and how many of us are having problems with stage2?
> that way they can get a better idea.. its on a 2liter regardless
> 
> my problem is with a stage1 chip


Mine is with the stage 2


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

cm123 said:


> how many of us are having problems with a stage1 chip and how many of us are having problems with stage2?
> that way they can get a better idea.. its on a 2liter regardless


*stage 1* here as well

Kei


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Other than the set idle speed, the differences between the two stages is very minimal.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

tdogg74 said:


> Other than the set idle speed, the differences between the two stages is very minimal.


There aren't any tweaks to help out with the different cams? If not, that's very very useful information for those of us with vagcom's...after I confirm my motor is good to go for a cam upgrade I wouldn't need a reflash to put a cam in.

That would be awesome if I didn't have to plan for shipping downtime at all? 

Kei


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Fixed a small vacuum leak on my evap system. Also had the entire vacuum system "smoked" here at the automotive place where I work. No vacuum leaks found...And the car is still running rich and slight rev hang, lol. Also, ran the car for 4 days without the bfi chip and no cel, no rev hang and no richness codes found. Think there is something wrong with the chip?


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

GloryFreak said:


> Fixed a small vacuum leak on my evap system. Also had the entire vacuum system "smoked" here at the automotive place where I work. No vacuum leaks found...And the car is still running rich and slight rev hang, lol. Also, ran the car for 4 days without the bfi chip and no cel, no rev hang and no richness codes found. Think there is something wrong with the chip?


I dunno bout the chip dude...only person I can think of that has no problem with his is tdoggs his pulls pretty hard...also where did u find the leak in the evap system?


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Okay here's an update and some additional information:

*News From BFI*

Just heard from Joe at BFI that a new chip is coming my way to test, so I'll post results once that swap is completed.

*History Lesson / Smog Check*

The whole reason I got into the BFI chip in the first place was because I couldn't pass CA Smog and suspected the GIAC chip was contributing to the problem. My first test result is below:










The car had audible knocking at the lower RPMs under load, so I was speculating that the timing curve wasn't right with the GIAC chip, and could have been causing excess combustion temps and thus excess NOx. Thus, I changed over to the BFI chip. That's when I started this whole rev-hang discussion. Since the first test, I installed the BFI chip, changed the oil, replaced the TB, cleaned the intake system, new fuel cap, and put the stock 3bar FPR back in. The second test results are as follows:










As you can see, it failed NOx again, with worse results. The front O2 sensor is


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Excellent information Patrick, I haven't had to take my car through inspection this year (not til next year thankfully).

I've been doing almost the exact same things as you (if not more  ) in looking for this problem. Again this week I decided to go through again and replace every visible vacuum line I could see since I'd used some hose that wasn't originally meant for that exact purpose (worked great though). I bought a pack of hose, and went to town in th engine bay while waiting for my brakes to cool (replacing a rear wheel bearing).

After replacing all those lines including the long hose that leads down into the fender, I've still got nothing in the way of answers. I haven't bought more hose, and went under the car to remove the liner to replace whatever hose I see in there, but mad what a journey this has been.

Everything I've seen almost screams to me that it's a vacuum leak, but man I swear it's impossible for me to find one. I've sprayed carb cleaner, listened by ear, replaced lines, replaced gaskets, etc. etc. etc.

I almost hope that it IS something in the code that causes this...but then in my head it still wouldn't explain why I don't have the same power I had when I first installed the chip...my car is up to par with maintenence parts now, but wasn't fully up to par when I first installed it to test it. (the power left before replacing any parts so that's not it)

Still the only codes I get are the rich code (p0172) and the missing rear/secondary o2 sensor (p0141). I'd put another o2 sensor in there if I knew that would fix the problem, but that is the one that doesn't do anything other than check the catalyst efficiency...right? (one will be installed eventually, but not until I get a new high flow cat to put it in)
===============================================================

On another note, I hooked up my laptop with the vagcom again the other night to look at the maf readings at various rpms (full throttle) as well as look at the lambda values.

The max reading my maf sensor gave me was 


Coolant 99.0C
Rpm 6,040
Maf 99.86 g/s
Air temp 31.5C

Those numbers look okay to me, but I'm not 100% sure what the maf reading should be (roughly) at that rpm on a chipped/exhaust car. I think I remember tdogg saying something about it needing to be ~82% or near that mark of what the engine power would be. I don't remember if that's at the flywheel or drivewheels, and I can't find the thread/message he said it in lol.

A quick search on the net shows someone saying that ~HP= MAF reading/0.8

That would put my engine power at...

99.72 124.6hp @ 6,040rpm
97.22 121.5hp @ 5640rpm
91.53 114.4hp @ 5120rpm
84.03 105.0hp @ 4560rpm

I'd love to know what tdogg thinks of those numbers (tt exhaust, test pipe, and chip are the only power adders). The car still returns to me roughly 30mpg mixed city/hwy using my usual 92oct.

Looking at the vagcom numbers it showed that the car was running very rich at idle when I was finished driving, showing correction numbers of roughly -19% at times though it would never stay that high for a long time. When driving around the values are very close to zero.

Thoughts...anyone?

Kei


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Kiyokix said:


> Still the only codes I get are the rich code (p0172) and the missing rear/secondary o2 sensor (p0141). I'd put another o2 sensor in there if I knew that would fix the problem, but that is the one that doesn't do anything other than check the catalyst efficiency...right? (one will be installed eventually, but not until I get a new high flow cat to put it in)
> ...
> The car still returns to me roughly 30mpg mixed city/hwy using my usual 92oct.
> ...
> ...


I thought the BFI chip deleted the secondary o2 sensor? Yes I believe that rear o2 sensor is only a metric for catalyst efficiency. I don't know if these computers change map or go into a form of limp mode when the CEL is tripped, but the best apples to apples comparisons would probably be to clear up whatever is setting the code (o2 sensor in your case). It seems I'm the only one not getting P0172 code (or any CEL) as well. If the norm is for the BFI chip to cause P0172 rich condition, and I'm not seeing that code, that further leads me to believe a lean condition is causing my high NOx. 

causes of lean condition i haven't explored yet: 

low fuel pressure: My injectors were recently cleaned, but I've never changed the fuel filter nor checked the fuel pressure, there's no sensor data to log for FP is there?

other sources of vacuum leaks: uhh

I get 23-25mpg, but i drive hard, always on 91oct in cali.

gonna log some data with VAGCOM soon and put that on display too.


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

I had that rear o2 sensor code when I didn't have a rear o2 sensor bung install on my custom exhuast...Installed a bung and added the rear o2 sensor back, code went away so that has nothing to do with the richness code we are all getting with the bfi chip.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Patrick007 said:


> *I thought the BFI chip deleted the secondary o2 sensor?*
> 
> causes of lean condition i haven't explored yet:
> 
> ...



Yea, the chips do delete the NEED for a rear o2 sensor, but apparently you must still have one plugged in on some cars. I remember some guys saying they never plugged one in, and never got a code, and others (like me) who don't have one plugged in that do get a code. The chip stops the catalyst below efficiency code from popping up though regardless of having a sensor or not.

I haven't bought a new one yet since I know that's not gonna fix my problem (except that code), so I'd rather hold onto the money just in case I find something that actually WILL fix the problem lol. (that and I really want a brand new high flow cat to put it in, not my test pipe).

If I were you I'd absolutely change that fuel filter out, it takes about 5 minutes to do, and it's pretty important. 

As for fuel pressure, sadly there isn't any data in the vagcom that I know of that will tell you the pressures, but since you're doing some logging...care to let me know what numbers you get from your maf readins at a few rpm points? I know our cars aren't 100% the same, but I'm curious what kinda numbers others are getting.

Kei


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

*Let's get interesting...*

Okay so I installed the stock chip again today to do some vagcom logging, and then immediately swapped back to the chip to log again under the same weather conditions.

The only variables are the two different chips (stock vs. c2/bfi), and the intake temperature being _slightly_ higher due to heat from sitting to change the chips.

Stock gave me a high of 100-102 g/s in maf data going from about 5300-6000rpm (don't have it in front of me). Intake temps were 28.5C (83.3F) at the time of the test.

C2 gave me a high of 99 g/s going from about 5800-6100rpm (again not in front of me). Intake temps were 31.5C (88.7F) at the time of the test.

If you look back to the data I listed the other night, the max was still the same today as was then with the chip installed. The other night the intake temp was down to 30C still yielding 99.72 g/s at 6000rpm.

What is boggling my mind is that while of course the throttle response is better, and the lower rpm acceleration seems better (not huge but still noticeable)...the stock setup is yielding higher numbers over a broader rpm band...on 93oct (which shouldn't really help the car gain power anyway).

For whatever reason it seems as though besides the throttle response, the car isn't making any extra power where it should be. This would confirm that I'm NOT crazy when I said that the car feels quicker/different than stock, BUT not _nearly_ as quick as when I first installed the chip at H2Oi last year.

Since that time the only real mods I've done to the car are adding the TT exhaust, and the 42DD test pipe while I save up for a new cat. (mine was starting to rattle) Still the ONLY codes that come up are the p0141 (2nd o2 sensor) and the p0172 (rich), but as it's been cleared swapping chips the rich code hasn't returned yet.

When the throttle is pinned during these runs the lambda values are at 0.0%. While cruising the values are around 0 to say -3% at roughly 2200rpm cruise. Look again at around 1800rpm and you can be 0 to -8% or so...then at idle (set at 960rpm) you can be from 0 to -17% or so.

My thought right now is that maybe there is a leaky injector or something...but this is the 2nd set I've tried since I got a set from a fellow vortexer to see if my stock units were just not working out. Car is still the same as when I was using the stock ones. (didn't have a vagcom at that time). If I need to, I don't mind buying new units...but I don't want to buy parts that may not be causing the problem.

Okay thoughts...cuz my head hurts right now? :screwy:

Kei


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

^^x2 on the car not pulling as hard as it used to when i first swapped in the chip


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Kiyokix said:


> O
> Stock gave me a high of 100-102 g/s in maf data going from about 5300-6000rpm (don't have it in front of me). Intake temps were 28.5C (83.3F) at the time of the test.
> 
> C2 gave me a high of 99 g/s going from about 5800-6100rpm (again not in front of me). Intake temps were 31.5C (88.7F) at the time of the test.
> ...


Just an FYI...your chip has nothing to do with A) your MAF output readings and B) controlling your throttle position.

The MAF converts temperature into voltage to deliver load readings to the ECU. It's just a sensor sending a voltage...not controlled by your chip. The ECU chip adapts to the voltage signal, not the other way around. Any differential in g/sec readings has to do with temperature, relative humidity, and barometric pressure. OR how you happened to drive the vehicle during the test procedure.

The throttle position is controlled by your foot. Not the chip.

Also, hot-swapping chips like this, and then doing logs back to back, is not going to yield an accurate comparison. It takes a complete ECU reset (disconnect battery and discharge) and about 7 cold starts for a chip to fully adapt....and thats taking into consideration your driving style during those learning periods.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

tdogg74 said:


> Just an FYI...your chip has nothing to do with A) your MAF output readings and B) controlling your throttle position.
> 
> The MAF converts temperature into voltage to deliver load readings to the ECU. It's just a sensor sending a voltage...not controlled by your chip. The ECU chip adapts to the voltage signal, not the other way around. Any differential in g/sec readings has to do with temperature, relative humidity, and barometric pressure. OR how you happened to drive the vehicle during the test procedure.
> 
> ...


Thanks for chiming in and clearing up that maf data for me. I know about the swapping (battery was disconnected though not allowed to sit for 30 mins) and ecu adaptation times. I just wanted to get some sort of data between the two, to see what was (if anything) different in output numbers overall.

Driving style wise is pretty easy for me as I'm a fanatical road racing type of guy...so consistency (especially in testing) is really big to me.

Not sure though what you're talking about with the throttle position though...did I say something that made it sound like I thought the chip controlled it? (or was that in reference to the lambda numbers or something else)

Kei


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

tdogg74 said:


> The throttle position is controlled by your foot. Not the chip.
> 
> .


I'm not sure what role the chip itself plays, but the computer most certainly plays a part in controlling the throttle position. When I let off the throttle, the ECU is commanding the idle control motor to keep the throttle open. It also opens the throttle to 'catch' the revs when you let off to change gear or come to a stop. In many of our cases, the ECU is over-shooting this return-to-idle aspect of controlling the throttle. 

MAF data should consistent from chip to chip, as tdogg said it's just a hot wire anemometer, but yea I do need to log some data to show. I'll change the fuel filter too, I'm pretty sure I have one laying around just never actually changed it. My injectors were recently sent to RC engineering for cleaning and rebuild, so I'm not thinking I have injector problems. 

Waiting for BFI's test chip to come in, then I'll clear everything and swap chips and report back. I'll take VAGCOM data prior to swapping chips so we can see some differences if necessary. What are the important channels to log? Again I'm a VAGCOM n00b, so where are you guys pulling those fueling percentages? 

-Patrick


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

got the ecu along with the new chip back from c2 on friday but didnt get to open the package until tonight.
ill be swapping out the ecu tomorrow and let you know what happens. hopefully it fixes the problems


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Patrick, I usually look at channels 1, 3, and 4 when I'm logging my car (use measuring blocks not basic). Those have the coolant temp, intake temp, maf data, rpms, throttle position, timing, and lambda/fuel data.

I'm very interested to see what results you guys get with the new chips. If you don't mind, let me know what the throttle angle is (channel 3 I believe) at wide open throttle. Mine value is roughly 78, just want to make sure that's about what it should be.

Kei


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Updates?


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

GloryFreak said:


> Updates?


gonna be installing the ecu with the new c2 chip today, ill take a video to show how the car reacts..
hope this one works!:thumbup:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

FYI....its probably going to idle weird when you put the new ECU in. That is _completely normal_. The throttle body needs to adapt. Give the motor few cold starts before posting your results.


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

tdogg74 said:


> FYI....its probably going to idle weird when you put the new ECU in. That is _completely normal_. The throttle body needs to adapt. Give the motor few cold starts before posting your results.


thanks for the info tdogg..
im honestly just looking to see if the car is going to shut off or not after the warm up cycle. I just drove it now so i am going to wait for it to cool down a little before installing it


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

^^so excited right now...can't wait eekkkkkk


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

of course the code reader i ordered wont be coming in until tomorrow :banghead:
hopefully no codes come up


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

X2 for no codes!!!!eace:


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

ok so i just installed the ECU with the new C2 chip.
the idle is at a constant 900rpms
no check engine light as of now!!
letting it idle for a while to see if it will shut off or not.. will keep you posted


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Out of curiosity, what was changed with the chip programing?


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

I have a weird theory. If people such as myself are getting system too rich codes and rev hangs with the bfi chip, but uninstall the chip/run for a week or so (100+ miles mixed between highway/city) without ANY codes found or any rev hang issues, wouldn't you think that there is something wrong with the tuning? ....Like I said this is just a theory and not a fact.


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

tdogg74 said:


> Out of curiosity, what was changed with the chip programing?


to be honest with you im not sure..
chris just swapped my chip which was about a year old with a brand new one


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Then, technically, there should be no difference. It's a cookie cutter program.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

I'm still waiting for my new chip from BFI (it's in the mail I'm told), but BFI told me that Chris from C2 had their new programmer look at the code (the old programmer has left C2 since working on the code for these chips). This new programmer didn't find any "glaring errors" but did "identify a few lines of code that seemed to be the problem areas" on our 1998+ cars. The new programmer also cleaned up a number of other lines of inefficient code within the program, so these new chips really are different from those of the past. 

-Patrick


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Patrick007 said:


> I'm still waiting for my new chip from BFI (it's in the mail I'm told), but BFI told me that Chris from C2 had their new programmer look at the code (the old programmer has left C2 since working on the code for these chips). This new programmer didn't find any "glaring errors" but did "identify a few lines of code that seemed to be the problem areas" on our 1998+ cars. The new programmer also cleaned up a number of other lines of inefficient code within the program, so these new chips really are different from those of the past.
> 
> -Patrick


yea that's what Chris was telling me.
i was very surprised with the top end it has now..
once it hits 80 it just keeps going


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

Sweet! mines is in the mail..........................so did it also solve the rev hang issue?


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

bluntman220 said:


> Sweet! mines is in the mail..........................so did it also solve the rev hang issue?


Yea I'm having no problems with the rev hang issue


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

cm123 said:


> Yea I'm having no problems with the rev hang issue


Happen to have a video (cell or anything) of how the car is running and idling? I must say even though I don't want it to be a chip problem...I WANT it to be a chip problem so we can stop chasing ghosts lol.

Kei


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Patrick007 said:


> I'm still waiting for my new chip from BFI (it's in the mail I'm told), but BFI told me that Chris from C2 had their new programmer look at the code (the old programmer has left C2 since working on the code for these chips). This new programmer didn't find any "glaring errors" but did "identify a few lines of code that seemed to be the problem areas" on our 1998+ cars. The new programmer also cleaned up a number of other lines of inefficient code within the program, so these new chips really are different from those of the past.
> 
> -Patrick


So does this mean all of the non 1998+ people are still screwed with the whole issue?


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Kiyokix said:


> Happen to have a video (cell or anything) of how the car is running and idling? I must say even though I don't want it to be a chip problem...I WANT it to be a chip problem so we can stop chasing ghosts lol.
> 
> Kei


i will take one today


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

cm123 said:


> i will take one today


:beer:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

mine is in the mail....very very excited...anyone in nyc w/ vagcom? i'll do video etc after i get mine in...i think i can have my work's obd2 reader scan running data to maybe add to the tech info...

:beer::thumbup:


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

I just took a video of starting up the car. This video was taken 20-30min after i drove it so the car was still pretty hot.
i will be taking another one later today to show how it is on a cold start :thumbup: 
its not letting me post up the the video straight onto the post so here is the link:
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/5506/tcm.mp4


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

So what do I need to do to get a hold of this "new" chip? Do I contact chris @ c2 or bfi directly and does it cost anything or could I just drive down there and ask for a swap?


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

GloryFreak said:


> So what do I need to do to get a hold of this "new" chip? Do I contact chris @ c2 or bfi directly and does it cost anything or could I just drive down there and ask for a swap?


to be honest with you i would call c2 since that's who i dealt with to get the problem fixed.
since my chip was a over year old, they charged $50 to get a brand new chip.
but i believe if your within the year purchased it should be a free upgrade?


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

cm123 said:


> I just took a video of starting up the car. This video was taken 20-30min after i drove it so the car was still pretty hot.
> i will be taking another one later today to show how it is on a cold start :thumbup:
> its not letting me post up the the video straight onto the post so here is the link:
> http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/5506/tcm.mp4


Thanks, any thoughts now that you've driven on it a bit...how does the car drive, are there any legit (aka non placebo lol) differences you've noticed in how your car behaves, etc.

Kei


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Kiyokix said:


> Thanks, any thoughts now that you've driven on it a bit...how does the car drive, are there any legit (aka non placebo lol) differences you've noticed in how your car behaves, etc.
> 
> Kei


well the acceleration is a lot quicker from a stock chip.. and you feel the torque when your going through gears. You also notice the top end difference. c2 said you should get between 8-12hp from it over time after you drive the car for a while


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Cool so now that there's a new chip available we all gotta get crackin if we wanna get ahold of this puppy...Yeaaaaah buddy!!!


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

cm123 said:


> to be honest with you i would call c2 since that's who i dealt with to get the problem fixed.
> since my chip was a over year old, they charged $50 to get a brand new chip.
> but i believe if your within the year purchased it should be a free upgrade?


Well that's good since I ordered and installed mine in like april or may of this year.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

cm123 said:


> well the acceleration is a lot quicker from a stock chip.. and you feel the torque when your going through gears. You also notice the top end difference. c2 said you should get between 8-12hp from it over time after you drive the car for a while


I remember how the car feels from stock chip vs the pem chips...just wondering if your car felt any different from the first install vs this new install. I was thinking more along the driveability more than anything.

Still no issues for you yet?

Kei


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Kiyokix said:


> I remember how the car feels from stock chip vs the pem chips...just wondering if your car felt any different from the first install vs this new install. I was thinking more along the driveability more than anything.
> 
> Still no issues for you yet?
> 
> Kei


so far so good.. and the difference between the first PEM install to this one? my first chip wasn't fully functioning so i didn't have the rev limiter changed to 7000 and the idles weren't steady it was constantly jumping around. I have driven it the past two days and no problems or CEL.
i drive it at least once a day so i will keep you all posted if anything happens


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

:beer:

I'm waiting to hear back from Jeff so I can get my mitts on one too, hopefully my success is as good as yours. 

I don't remember...you have a vagcom to look at any data if anything comes up?

Kei


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Just sent a message to c2 and asked that the message go directly to Chris. If i can get my hands on one this week, I will post up results. I have my vaccom system always in my car.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Sweet, I can't wait to hear back from Jeff, and of course I always have my vagcom in the car too. 

Kei


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Kiyokix said:


> :beer:
> 
> I'm waiting to hear back from Jeff so I can get my mitts on one too, hopefully my success is as good as yours.
> 
> ...


no i dont have vagcom, all i have is an obdII scanner if the CEL come up


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

ok, at least you've got something to use


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i got my chip the other day but i won't have time to install it til midweek (i hope!!)....really anxious to get this in!

anyone know how i can get vagcom on a mac? or an iphone even?


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

This is the reply from Chris @ C2:

BFI and I are discussing the options for PEM customers with issues, and how they can get the UPGRADE

We should have a plan in place today, look for an update posted to the Vortex or the C2 Facebook page.

Chris

C2


...So something is being done!


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

GloryFreak said:


> This is the reply from Chris @ C2:
> 
> BFI and I are discussing the options for PEM customers with issues, and how they can get the UPGRADE
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

mine is still working fine


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

How much was the chip for you cm123?


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

GloryFreak said:


> How much was the chip for you cm123?


since i was out of the year purchased it was $50


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

GloryFreak said:


> ...So something is being done!


Something HAS been done! :thumbup:

Here at C2, when we have a known issue with one of our products, we make sure to jump right on it to satisfy any customer having similar issues. We have recently talked to BFI and have come up with a solution for everyone regarding to issues with this software to upgrade. 

We are going to let anyone having this problem, pay a flat rate of *just $20* for the new software. 

Since it has not been a problem with 100% of customers with this chip, that is why we decided to charge *ONLY 10% * of retail price for chip vs. getting the chip for free. 

If anyone has any further questions, feel free to e-mail me at [email protected]

Thanks
-Jason


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Something HAS been done! :thumbup:
> 
> Here at C2, when we have a known issue with one of our products, we make sure to jump right on it to satisfy any customer having similar issues. We have recently talked to BFI and have come up with a solution for everyone regarding to issues with this software to upgrade.
> 
> ...


Sounds good Jason, I sent you an email from my yahoo email account. Hoping to get this before the weekend.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

hmmm....got my new updated chip in and installed it in the carrier and then in the ecu...no startup. took it out and put old bfi/c2 chip in just to test and it wouldnt start....?? oil light flashed as well...checked oil and all good. put oem stock chip in and it started right up. i have a check engine light on for what i think is only SAI buttttt of course one of the mechs at work borrowed the scantron obd2 scanner to use on the garages R8 so i'm going to rescan everything tonight or more likely this weekend. i believe when i initially installed my bfi/c2 chip i had cleared and reset everything before taking the stock vw chip out. is this a definite and necessary step for compatibility?? i am glad i tested the old bfi chip after putting it back in the carrier to see its not the new chip causing an issue but wish i had tested the old as is initially before switching the chips. any suggestions?? i took video of all three startups (or attempts) with my iphone but haven't uploaded anything yet and not that it would necessarily give more clues. it cranks but doesnt turn over. could it be as simple as i pushed the chip into the carrier too far?? i seemingly recall it not being pushed fully flush into the carrier when i orig bought it...or the carrier has to be seated more into the ecu....i could just be reaching here. i wore nitrile gloves and everything was in anti-static bags and with switching chips out nothing was damaged.

think thats enough of a ramble for the moment...i'm hoping i made a simple mistake somewhere as it was like 2am but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :beer:

i'll update as soon as i can.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2005)

Big V:

I sent you an email - I have an idea what your issue is, shouldn't be to hard to resolve..


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Big V:
> 
> I sent you an email - I have an idea what your issue is, shouldn't be to hard to resolve..


Please do tell in case others have similar issue. Oh and Joe, I sent the money through paypal on that link you sent me yesterday.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> Big V:
> 
> I sent you an email - I have an idea what your issue is, shouldn't be to hard to resolve..


Got it and responded thank you! Are the green dot/black dot different tunes or carrier specific?

for the rest of you...there are green or black dots on the bottom of the carriers or chips and i think i was having a compatibility issue it seems...waiting to hear back on this....really impressed with BFI/C2 for getting on this so quickly but also for keeping up on it! :beer:


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

The Big V said:


> Got it and responded thank you! Are the green dot/black dot different tunes or carrier specific?
> 
> for the rest of you...there are green or black dots on the bottom of the carriers or chips and i think i was having a compatibility issue it seems...waiting to hear back on this....really impressed with BFI/C2 for getting on this so quickly but also for keeping up on it! :beer:


X2 guys well done you will come highly recommended by me and your product speaks for itself!


cant wait to get this in the mail been itching to drive the car one more time before the snow files:facepalm:


P4C(mines the one in the middle)


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

So at this point I've installed the new burn from BFI. I have about 50 miles on it, with about 3 cold starts. I know tdogg suggested a few more cold starts, but I'm pretty confident at this point that the issue still exists and is not improving. The rev hang is still there for me bigtime. I performed the TB alignment procedure with VAGCOM after installing the new chip. Furthermore, I got a CEL which I haven't gotten before:

16989 - Internal Control Module: ROM Error P0605 - 35-00 - -

I logged some data as follows:

*Around Town Cruise*










*Highway Cruise*










*Full Throttle*










Couple things that stick out to me:

1. Full throttle TPS % is 85%

2. Ignition timing seems quite unsteady

Help?

-Patrick


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

Do some logs of blocks 02, 010, and 045. Do not graph any of info simply post the logs.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

What operating conditions are most useful? Cruise, city, full throttle?

-Patrick


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Patrick007 said:


> Couple things that stick out to me:
> 
> 1. Full throttle TPS % is 85%
> 
> -Patrick


Interesting, that's more than what mine say. Mine is usually around 77-78% so I'm unsure of what it should be at normally. I posted a few posts back asking what other had for theirs...interesting info indeed.

Anyone else out there care to chime in with their TPS numbers...especially anyone with a new one?



Fast VW said:


> Do some logs of blocks 02, 010, and 045. Do not graph any of info simply post the logs.


What should he be looking for in those blocks, I'm pretty sure I know what block 2 is, but what exactly are you looking for? For comparison purposes, I'm still on the older tune, and I'm more than willing to log the same blocks to see if things are different for us both.

Kei


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

Block 02 is going to give fuel injector on time. Block 010 is engine load and ignition timing. Block 045 is knock sensor activity.

Bring the car to full operating temp (inlcuding oil temp) by driving around (highway speed works best) for 20 mins min. Then I would do 1 or 2 3rd gear pulls 2000rpm to redline. A short cruise, but most important log right before, during and after the "rev hang". I remember reading a post a long time ago dealing with this issue and it turned out to be something with the fuel injector duty cycle. I am real curious to see what the injectors are doing during the "rev hang". Block 045 really has nothing to do with this issue but it is something I would like to see if you do not mind.

For comparison, both of my ABAs show 84.6 at WOT.


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.1
Friday, 28 October 2011, 22:06:31:63256
Control Module Part Number: 037 906 259 
Component and/or Version: BFI ABA S2 003 HS V08
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00066
VCID: D9C5797F5017
1 Fault Found:
16989 - Internal Control Module: ROM Error
P0605 - 35-00 - -

Got this after updated chip installed today...


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

So that's two guys with the new tune and two guys with the 16989 code? This ain't looking pretty for me considering I'm waiting for mine in the mail.....:thumbdown::thumbdown:


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Fast VW said:


> Block 02 is going to give fuel injector on time. Block 010 is engine load and ignition timing. Block 045 is knock sensor activity.
> 
> Bring the car to full operating temp (inlcuding oil temp) by driving around (highway speed works best) for 20 mins min. Then I would do 1 or 2 3rd gear pulls 2000rpm to redline. A short cruise, but most important log right before, during and after the "rev hang". I remember reading a post a long time ago dealing with this issue and it turned out to be something with the fuel injector duty cycle. I am real curious to see what the injectors are doing during the "rev hang". Block 045 really has nothing to do with this issue but it is something I would like to see if you do not mind.
> 
> For comparison, both of my ABAs show 84.6 at WOT.


Thanks, I went outside after I asked and took a look at those blocks to see what they were. I do wonder about my injectors in the car right now, but I haven't figured out if they're having a problem or not...though looking at some of the numbers makes me wonder.

I'll post my log as well later today if you don't mind looking at it. Heck, if all it takes to get my stuff back to 100% I'll buy new injectors asap.

I would LOVE to see a few more TPS numbers from you guys too, I wonder why mine is always 77-78% and no more.

Kei

(also very interested to see what comes of this new code the last 2 guys got)


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

I already installed new injectors homie.....and still a no go:sly:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Kiyokix said:


> I wonder why mine is always 77-78% and no more.


Thats normal on most cars. Its because your gas pedal isnt opening the throttle plate all the way. Take the boot off and have a look while someone floors it (engine off, of course). This is why its important to do throttle adaptations with VAGCOM when you screw with things. You can adjust the cable position by moving the cable where the grommets attach the cable to the intake manifold. They are round grommets over a ribbed part of the cable. If you pull hard enough, you will notice you can move the pedal up or down. This especially comes in handy when you want to position your gas pedal for the perfect heel-toe position. 

You should also be away that there is a stopper UNDER your gas pedal that can unscrew and be removed for more pedal action. 

There's ways around everything. :thumbup:


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

heres a video i took of cold starting the car today
20 seconds after the video end it went down to normal rpms (i was in a rush so i had to cut the video short )
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4617/6sqk.mp4


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

tdogg74 said:


> Thats normal on most cars. Its because your gas pedal isnt opening the throttle plate all the way. Take the boot off and have a look while someone floors it (engine off, of course). This is why its important to do throttle adaptations with VAGCOM when you screw with things. You can adjust the cable position by moving the cable where the grommets attach the cable to the intake manifold. They are round grommets over a ribbed part of the cable. If you pull hard enough, you will notice you can move the pedal up or down. This especially comes in handy when you want to position your gas pedal for the perfect heel-toe position.
> 
> You should also be away that there is a stopper UNDER your gas pedal that can unscrew and be removed for more pedal action.
> 
> There's ways around everything. :thumbup:


Thanks Trav, I figured it must be okay since it will still do an adaptation with my vagcom, and the specs were all in line with what I've seen to be good. I wonder how much of variance there is between some of these.

I've eyed up the pedal position A LOT because since I don't have huge/wide feet it is entirely too uncomfortable for heel & toe motions.

Kei


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Update: Driven about 120 miles with about 8 cold starts. Rev hang issue is gone but now not only am I still getting the system too rich, but I'm getting the Internal Control Module: ROM Error message  with the updated chip.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

^^wtf!!!!! Boooooooooooooo!!!!! This updated tune is not looking too promising at all!!!!


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

cm123 said:


> heres a video i took of cold starting the car today
> 20 seconds after the video end it went down to normal rpms (i was in a rush so i had to cut the video short )
> http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4617/6sqk.mp4


wait...but the CEL is on...?? i thought you didnt pull a check engine light with the new upgraded chip tune? whats the code(s) you are getting?

was it actually cold out or running a/c or radio or rear defrost etc when you started it in this video? and the idle settled down to 850 a few seconds after the vid right? no rev hang or odd running issues?


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

for the record...i was getting the ROM error CEL with the old chip...i am sending my chips back to BFI and getting a new upgraded chip and will report back my results.

keep posting data and information/feedback guys...we have to diagnose the problems.

edit clarification---old chip meaning the original...i have to send my chips back because the new chip wasn't compatible with the carrier i have (see my no start after swap a few posts up)....getting a proper replacement asap.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

has anyone spoken with BFI or C2 about the continued or new issues??

GloryFreak - did you drive to C2 to get this new update done or did they mail it to ya? have you spoken to them about coming in to try to diagnose some of the problems live connected to their computers?


----------



## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

The Big V said:


> wait...but the CEL is on...?? i thought you didnt pull a check engine light with the new upgraded chip tune? whats the code(s) you are getting?
> 
> was it actually cold out or running a/c or radio or rear defrost etc when you started it in this video? and the idle settled down to 850 a few seconds after the vid right? no rev hang or odd running issues?


the CEL is on for an evap leak which i dont bother fixing since it passes inspection and it doesnt cause the car to run like crap :thumbup:
yes it was cold out, it was the day of the big snow storm NY had 2 days ago around 35 degrees.
my car never idled at 850 it was always around 900-920. the rev hang would only be from these cold starts since the car is in warm up cycle. after that it would be consistent rpm's


----------



## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

cm123 said:


> the CEL is on for an evap leak which i dont bother fixing since it passes inspection and it doesnt cause the car to run like crap :thumbup:
> yes it was cold out, it was the day of the big snow storm NY had 2 days ago around 35 degrees.
> my car never idled at 850 it was always around 900-920. the rev hang would only be from these cold starts since the car is in warm up cycle. after that it would be consistent rpm's


yeah this weather we're having out here suuucks...i'm not ready for winter. did you check CEL codes to make sure any new ones aren't coming up? like the ROM error others are having? thanks for keeping up on this man! i just sent my chip back via UPS to bfi/c2 before closing monday night so will keep you all posted after i get my new new one in.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

Patrick007 said:


> Couple things that stick out to me:
> 
> 1. Full throttle TPS % is 85%
> 
> ...


I believe the "unsteady ignition timing" is actually the result of knock sensor activity but we need to see the logs to verify.

The "too rich" code and rev hang are possibly related to the injector on time being too long. This is just a hunch but we need to see logs.


----------



## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

The Big V said:


> has anyone spoken with BFI or C2 about the continued or new issues??
> 
> GloryFreak - did you drive to C2 to get this new update done or did they mail it to ya? have you spoken to them about coming in to try to diagnose some of the problems live connected to their computers?


Talked with C2 and because I bought my chip from BFI I needed to contact them. BFI was the one that sent me the updated chip.


----------



## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Fast VW said:


> I believe the "unsteady ignition timing" is actually the result of knock sensor activity but we need to see the logs to verify.
> 
> The "too rich" code and rev hang are possibly related to the injector on time being too long. This is just a hunch but we need to see logs.


 I've always thought bout the injector timing being too long...what exactly controls the timing...ecu? So maybe if the timing is too long? Bad ecu? Just another hunchskees


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

just checked to see if any other codes have come up since i installed, and P0172 is back 
maybe its time for me to change the front o2 sensor? the car runs fine besides that


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

You do not need a front O2 sensor. The problem is in the tune/chip. I believe it is commanding the fuel injectors to stay open too long causing the idle/hanging rev problem to occur and triggering the P0172 code. When this happens occasionally it would cause a pending code and if it happens frequently enough it causes the CEL.

Loging the event with vagcom and marking the log with "here I pushed in the clutch", "here the rev hang/idle issue occured", etc. would be very beneficial to understanding what is occuring.

I have a custom C2 tune for an auto transmission. It was my wife's car not mine. :laugh: Anyways when the car is completly cold (i.e. sits over night) or warmed up enough to be out of "warm up" mode the car idles and runs perfectly. If the car is just at a point where it is leaving warm up mode and it is put into neutral or park (i.e. less load) the idle will bounce between 1000 rpm to 2500 rpm. It will continue to do this until it is out of "warm up" mode or until it is put into gear. If you begin to drive it you are ok unless you turn the AC on, for the first 1/2 mile or so. With the AC on it will almost stall at a stop light. 

One day while it was doing the rev climb I shut it off and removed a spark plug. It was soaking wet with fuel. I also get the P0172 code but it is always pending. 

The car runs perfectly with any chip other than the C2 chip.


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Fast VW said:


> You do not need a front O2 sensor. The problem is in the tune/chip. I believe it is commanding the fuel injectors to stay open too long causing the idle/hanging rev problem to occur and triggering the P0172 code. When this happens occasionally it would cause a pending code and if it happens frequently enough it causes the CEL.
> 
> Loging the event with vagcom and marking the log with "here I pushed in the clutch", "here the rev hang/idle issue occured", etc. would be very beneficial to understanding what is occuring.
> 
> ...


so should i get another chip from c2? i mean this one actually works. It doesn't cause the car shut off during the warm up cycle or while driving which is what the old one was doing. The only problem as you can tell is the code P0172.
hopefully they can get this fixed. I guess ill have to give them a call about the code coming up


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

so about everyone asking me where the car idles at normally here is a pic.
Also i just realzied the RPMs go up by 200 :banghead: im not sure as to why i kept thinking the idle was around 920


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

sorry for posting 3 times in a row.
The only symptom i see that my car is having is the gas mileage that im getting. Not sure if this is due to the chip or not since i dont really beat on the car. the only time i did was the first 2 days i had the chip for it the car to recognize it.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

*Fast VW* - have you checked your wife's throttle body? as in cleaned it out? and done a vagcom tps adapt? guessing you have but just checking

*Patrick007* - can you log the 2 scenarios Fast VW mentioned sometime this week??..."here i pushed the clutch in" and "here i have rev hang/etc"

it sounds like there are 3 or 4 issues with the tune and c2/bfi fixed the specific issue(s) pertaining to 98+ cars but not the injector CEL problem or rev/throttle issue. 

*Kiyokix* - have you spoken to Jeff about your chip and has he looked into diagnosing these issues?

:beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup: we'll get this all figured out soon.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

I was convinced at first the problem was with my car so I replaced:
1. MAF
2. Front O2 sensor
3. ECT sensor
4. IAT sensor
5. Fuel injectors
6. Throttle body had been cleaned and adapted several times
7. etc, etc, etc

When I would remove the chip all issues would go away and stay gone. The car just runs so much better with the C2 chip, we just learned to live with the "quirks". Actually this chip had some things done to it specifically for the auto transmission and the shifts and power (it also has a TT266 cam and TT exhaust) where very noticeably improved over other chips.

I really believe the rich code and idle/rev hang issues are related to IDC not being quite right as the car transitions from "warm up" mode to warmed up.

The VagCom logs may help C2/BFI sort this out faster.

Two other things I should mention, the automatic car is a 1997. I also have another 1997 with C2s 30# forced induction tune and I have no issues at all.


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

The Big V said:


> :beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup: we'll get this all figured out soon.


i hope so. im kinda pissed that i got P0172 i really thought the new chip took care of it. i should consider myself lucky that the only issue i have is that stupid code :thumbup:


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

I will get logs ASAP as requested. It was a rough weekend of costume parties and booze.

Also, finally bit the bullet and bought a new CAT... hopefully that lets me pass emissions, the cops are not pleased with me at the moment with my way expired tags. 

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

awesome guys...i definitely think we are the key to helping bfi/c2 diagnose and solve these issues.

we have an older Actron i think obd2 scanner at work i was going to use for diagnosis with the new chip installed (still waiting to get in the mail)...its not VAGCOM but i'll look into seeing if theres a live data readout that it can save and try to gather some info. does anyone have vagcom on their iphone or know how to get it working on a mac?? i've got a call into another obd2 reader company that needs testing for vw's and audi's and have expressed that i would looovvve to use their product to get live data for these chip tunes...we'll see if they get it finalized in time.
EDIT--just read up on vagcom and iphone and mac etc...looks like i gotta get a netbook or borrow someone elses in the meantime.


i just noticed that part numbers are different for 96-97 throttle bodies and TPS as well as 98+ cars...bfi/c2 said they modded some lines for 98+ cars but i'm wondering what the actual differences in these physical parts are..?? and i'm wondering if some 97 cars had some early 98+ parts in them....if you've ever looked at ETKA or tried to figure out the little differences between the years you'll understand what a mess VW was with this haha.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Fast VW said:


> You do not need a front O2 sensor.


True, I replaced mine about 5-6k miles ago and I was getting this same thing before and after doing so.



The Big V said:


> *Kiyokix* - have you spoken to Jeff about your chip and has he looked into diagnosing these issues?


I talked to Jeff last week, and after C2 posted the new tune we decided to let it rock, and see how this plays out for now.

Kei


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

got my chip 2 days ago and so far no issues ive cold started it twice now and only put 30km on it (due to hole in my cat which makes it sound obnoxious and waiting for a new one) but so far so good 


:thumbup: to C2/BFI for handling this so well , i have nothing but good things to say


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

bluntman220 said:


> got my chip 2 days ago and so far no issues ive cold started it twice now and only put 30km on it (due to hole in my cat which makes it sound obnoxious and waiting for a new one) but so far so good
> 
> 
> :thumbup: to C2/BFI for handling this so well , i have nothing but good things to say


good to hear man keep us updated.. P0172 came up i think after the 3rd day having it in since that was when my check engine light first came up for my evap leak. then i checked a week later and P0172 was there


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

*Data Time*

*Full Throttle Run 1 - 3rd Gear, all performed in the same place *










*Full Throttle Run 2 - 3rd Gear*










*Full Throttle Run 3 - 3rd Gear*










*No AC Rev Hang*

3rd gear low rpm low load cruise, then clutch in and coast










*AC Turned On Rev Hang*

3rd gear low rpm low load cruise, then clutch in and coast










*Thoughts*

Full throttle runs show some knock issues. It seems like the target ignition timing is often overshot when the knock results in a demand for less timing.

The rev hang in both cases looks like an ignition timing problem. With the AC turned on, why when I push the clutch in and let off the throttle would the ignition map be trying to target 20deg of timing, then over the course of 20+ seconds slowly fall back down to 12deg. Wouldn't this over-advanced timing in an idle mode cause the revs to rise?

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

bluntman220 said:


> got my chip 2 days ago and so far no issues ive cold started it twice now and only put 30km on it (due to hole in my cat which makes it sound obnoxious and waiting for a new one) but so far so good
> 
> :thumbup: to C2/BFI for handling this so well , i have nothing but good things to say



what year car do you have and what mods do you have?? which of the issues exactly were ya having before? keep driving the car as it will take a good set of miles and starts to really tell if we are in the clear for CELs etc. do you have vagcom??--if so start logging some data now (Fast VW mentioned important blocks to watch). we need to start narrowing things down to help with diagnosing any issues. thanks

i installed my orig chip and passed inspection and literally 5 minutes on my drive to Maine after leaving the inspection place my CEL came on...haha...got really lucky on that one...hoping we solve this eventually so luck isnt a factor. i'll be getting a new chip in mail soon and can add to the data...just wish vagcom was compatible with older macs :/...i'll try the old actron scanner thing and see what i can pull.

cheers guys :beer:


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

No graphs, just post the raw info like this. This doesn't have the injector info (block 002) and is from my FI car but I am just using it as an example.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Patrick007 said:


> Full throttle runs show some knock issues. It seems like the target ignition timing is often overshot when the knock results in a demand for less timing.
> 
> The rev hang in both cases looks like an ignition timing problem. With the AC turned on, why when I push the clutch in and let off the throttle would the ignition map be trying to target 20deg of timing, then over the course of 20+ seconds slowly fall back down to 12deg. Wouldn't this over-advanced timing in an idle mode cause the revs to rise?
> 
> -Patrick



dude you rock for this :beer: ....i need to get vagcom somehow...i also need an engineering for dummies book to help me with all this haha...you guys are getting over my head. seems strange to me though. over advance timing will cause the engine to idle high regardless of a/c won't it?? but the TPS will want to set the idle low to "compensate" right? with a/c on it's probably trying to adjust idle more (usually mine would rise 50-100rpms) and if the chip is telling the TPS to set idle at a certain rpm is that a separate signal/request to the ECU and wont this just add to the issue? EDIT--i see the a/c is just making the problem more severe...rev hang is still present with a/c off.

this will all effect emissions and gas mileage too right? i think i got about 30 mpg goin to Maine after installing the orig BFI chip still. i don't quite understand- how severe is the knocking for the engine?--knocking can range from being pretty destructive to no damage right?

EDIT--you guys keep posting while my morning brain is trying to grasp all this and type. ha


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

The knock sensor can pull up to 12 degrees in each cylinder before the knock is out of control. A slight amount of knock sensor activity is ok especially around the area the engine makes peak torque. Too much knock sensor activity and the ECU starts to remove timing from the map reducing torque and hp. 

We really need to see what the ignition timing and injector on time is showing during the rev hang.

This will all be much easier to see with raw data and not graphs.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Not that I can't post the raw data, and granted I'm an engineer but... the graphs seem pretty easy to read no? It's much easier for me to see trends with plotted data. 

Reading from the graph, with the AC on, at the moment the clutch is depressed the actual ignition timing drops from 28deg to about 17deg, stays there for about 10sec, then tapers down to about 9deg. That whole time the actual timing is undershooting the desired timing (per the map, which isn't necessarily ideal). From 9deg, the actual timing starts to creep up towards the 12deg that the map is calling for, and at that point the idle finally settles at 1050rpm. 

*No AC Rev Hang - Raw Data*










*AC On Rev Hang - Raw Data*











It seems in my case the ECU is pulling about 8deg out due to knock, which based on what FastVW said, isn't 'out of control' knock. It doesn't, however, take "too much knock" before the ECU starts to pull timing. Based on what we see in the plots, any time there is a rise in one of the Ignition Correction traces, there is a simultaneous dip in Actual Ignition timing. I would suspect this is because the ECU overshoots when trying to hit the target timing (is that feedback loop part of the chip coding C2?)

The bigger issue though (but related) is the desired ignition timing at idle. When I push the clutch in, I can't understand why the map would be calling for so much ignition timing. To me, this sounds like a coding error with the feedback loop controls the timing at idle. It engineering terms, especially with the AC on, the 'settling time' of the feedback loop seems far too long. The ECU should be targeting about 12deg of timing at idle (based on these plots) but its taking far too long to get there (3-5 seconds w/o AC, 20+ seconds with AC on).


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

with all this information you have been posting i hope c2 is looking at this so they can this straightened out. 
there must be a solution


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

^^x2 I honestly don't even wanna swap in the new chip...one cause I'm gonna be taking it out anyway...and two cause even if I swapped it in I wouldn't know how to log any info on my vag_com....cause I'm not too brite:/


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

First, C2 will not want to see trends they will want to see numbers. IDC cannot be calculated from a graph. Much easier to get specific info from the logs vs graphs.

You can clearly see from the logs where the clutch is pushed as the engine load via the MAF reading drops. Your IDC doesn't look to bad, a little high at some points, but not by much. The timing on my FI chip drops instantly to around 4-5 degrees when the cluth is push or at idle when the motor is fully warmed up. I have logs showing a "map" of 3 degrees and an "actual" of 4.5 degrees.

Your logs show no timing pull but I am assuming you are refering to the WOT logs that you have. 8 degrees in a single cylinder during colder weather such as now is something that would cause me to raise my eyebrows. Are you using 93 octane? 8 degrees is not "out of control" but it is pretty high. If you do not mind post one of the WOT logs. The ECU will always "over shoot" the amount of timing it pulls out in order to protect the engine. Reducing the overall timing to prevent knock sensor activity this high and therefore "dips and peaks" in ignition timing will often result in a smoother running motor and a faster car because of smooth torque curve. On dyno graphs you can sometimes see knock sensor activity by looking for "choppy" torque curves.

I am going outside right now to log the car with the auto transmission and N/A C2 chip at idle in park or neutral. I will post them later tonight.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

Here ya go. Here are 2 screen shots of the same log. I condensed them down to eliminate useless information and I included the IDC% on the far left column. I actually caught the "rev on its own" as the car began to warm up in the first log. You can see the car was cold and was calling for 12 degrees of ignition advance and high 4% for IDC. When warmed up more the IDC dropped into the 3% area (960 idle). When the car reved on its own the IDC went to over 6% and the timing jumped significantly. Here is the log. The yellow area is the "rev on its own" area:










Next is during the same log. Notice that when the engine is fully warm the IDC is still 3% or so (warm idle is at 960). I reved the engine myself and notice the timing jumps but the IDC only goes up slightly. Yellow are is where I reved the car:


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks for the great info Fast. I only have 91oct available in CA. Sadly I won't be able to provide any more data. Today I went for a little joyride, then a few blocks from my house the car started losing power, got worse quickly, wouldn't rev in neutral, then died. First time this car ever left me stranded. I was coasting when it died, and made the poor choice of dragging the clutch a little to pop start it. That's when I heard a noise similar to what i would imagine valves hitting pistons might sound like (never heard it before), then I came to stop and towed it home. Timing belt is still on and tight, gotta check the timing marks tomorrow. In the garage I bumped the starter motor a little, turns over without any odd noises. Pulled plug 1, whiteish as it's always been, and verified spark (thought maybe original coil died). Did a compression test on 1 and 4 (plugs 2 and 3 still in) and got 60psi. 

-Patrick


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)




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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Patrick,
with my first c2 chip my car shut off on while driving as well multiple times. i swapped my stock chip and it would start right up. not sure if this will help you or not but thought it wouldnt hurt to share


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

so whats the deal here with the new chip , i have it installed but have yet to take it for a good drive due to an exhaust leak, which iam waiting on a header and CAT to be delivered , but i have cold started the car 3 times and it ran fine and drove it up n down my street (i have a stage 2 chip with 268 cam) rev hang seemed gone and no codes. but iam curious should i take the stock chip in the car with me lol is it everyone having the no start after driving for a bit?


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

Patrick007 said:


> Thanks for the great info Fast. I only have 91oct available in CA. Sadly I won't be able to provide any more data. Today I went for a little joyride, then a few blocks from my house the car started losing power, got worse quickly, wouldn't rev in neutral, then died. First time this car ever left me stranded. I was coasting when it died, and made the poor choice of dragging the clutch a little to pop start it. That's when I heard a noise similar to what i would imagine valves hitting pistons might sound like (never heard it before), then I came to stop and towed it home. Timing belt is still on and tight, gotta check the timing marks tomorrow. In the garage I bumped the starter motor a little, turns over without any odd noises. Pulled plug 1, whiteish as it's always been, and verified spark (thought maybe original coil died). Did a compression test on 1 and 4 (plugs 2 and 3 still in) and got 60psi.
> 
> -Patrick


this chip related?


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

cm123 said:


> Patrick,
> with my first c2 chip my car shut off on while driving as well multiple times. i swapped my stock chip and it would start right up. not sure if this will help you or not but thought it wouldnt hurt to share


this worries me


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Patrick007 said:


> Thanks for the great info Fast. I only have 91oct available in CA. Sadly I won't be able to provide any more data. Today I went for a little joyride, then a few blocks from my house the car started losing power, got worse quickly, wouldn't rev in neutral, then died. First time this car ever left me stranded. I was coasting when it died, and made the poor choice of dragging the clutch a little to pop start it. That's when I heard a noise similar to what i would imagine valves hitting pistons might sound like (never heard it before), then I came to stop and towed it home. Timing belt is still on and tight, gotta check the timing marks tomorrow. In the garage I bumped the starter motor a little, turns over without any odd noises. Pulled plug 1, whiteish as it's always been, and verified spark (thought maybe original coil died). Did a compression test on 1 and 4 (plugs 2 and 3 still in) and got 60psi.
> 
> -Patrick



fudge...except i didnt say fudge. really sorry man. let me know if i can do anything to help. buy a used block cheap and i'll sell and ship ya my oem head w internals after i get my ported one in. this is one of those instances where i wish we all lived down the block from each other to rally and physically give a hand to help. :beer:


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

bluntman220 said:


> this worries me


ya i know especially going 65 and all of a sudden shutting down. thank god i was in the right hand lane and there was an emergency lane.


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

is this a common issue with the new chips?? i am afraid to go for a long drive lol


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

the sudden shutdown was with the old chips i thought...?
has anyone experienced this with the new chips??


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Friday,04,November,2011,13:49:14:20147
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.5

2 Faults Found:

16989 - Internal Control Module: ROM Error 
P0605 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Implausible Signal 
P0341 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

I'm having a tough time verifying the cam timing. When I line up the mark on the crank pulley to the lower timing cover arrow, the camshaft timing mark lines up with its arrow, and the distributor rotor lines up with its mark, but I don't see the mark on the flywheel (through the green plug) like I thought I should. Then again I have the lightweight flywheel, so I remember it being hard to spot the marks. But if I recall, that flywheel mark was supposed to be near a bolt, and when the crank pulley mark is aligned to the arrow on the lower cover, I don't even see a flywheel bolt head in the green plug window of the trans.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Also, I put the original BFI chip back in, turned it over, it sputtered for an instant, then no sign of life. 

FML
-Patrick


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Turns out the keyway feature on the crank timing sprocket sheared off, and the timing slipped. Before I figured that out I re-timed the motor to the flywheel and did a compression test, got 170-190psi, so hopefully no valves have been damaged... even tho I heard the terrible noise? New cog and crank bolt will be here Tuesday, then I'll try and run it. 

-Patrick


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)




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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

daaaamn...maybe the noise was when you tried pop starting it and that force sheared the keyway..? i'll cross my fingers no damage to crank/bottom or anything in the head. you gonna put a new timing belt on as well right? which cam tensioner are you using? crossing my fingers we hear good news from ya tues or after. :beer:




Patrick007 said:


> Turns out the keyway feature on the crank timing sprocket sheared off, and the timing slipped. Before I figured that out I re-timed the motor to the flywheel and did a compression test, got 170-190psi, so hopefully no valves have been damaged... even tho I heard the terrible noise? New cog and crank bolt will be here Tuesday, then I'll try and run it.
> 
> -Patrick


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

I literally just did the head rebuild/valve job/cam/belt etc like a couple months ago, so I'm gonna re-use the belt. I have the new style thermo-tensioner, though it's also new.. I should prolly run the old style one eh? I'm really hoping the noise I heard was the last of the keyway feature getting destroyed, and not valves kissing pistons. I decided if this motor is shot though I'm not fixing it, time for something newer. 

-Patrick


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

i wont be able to contribute for a couple of weeks :thumbdown:
i dropped my car off to replace my rockers and floorboards.
hope to see updates from the rest of you :thumbup:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Patrick007 said:


> I literally just did the head rebuild/valve job/cam/belt etc like a couple months ago, so I'm gonna re-use the belt. I have the new style thermo-tensioner, though it's also new.. I should prolly run the old style one eh? I'm really hoping the noise I heard was the last of the keyway feature getting destroyed, and not valves kissing pistons. I decided if this motor is shot though I'm not fixing it, time for something newer.
> 
> -Patrick


i'm just crossing my fingers.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

cm123 said:


> i wont be able to contribute for a couple of weeks :thumbdown:
> i dropped my car off to replace my rockers and floorboards.
> hope to see updates from the rest of you :thumbup:


i wanna see pics of the floorboards when they're done...i so need some work done to mine.


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## Minor_Threat (May 12, 2009)

my aba is in parts and for sale


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## jogiiara (Apr 16, 2006)

I had a similar problem with my MkII. It has a '97 ABA installed and was hanging like you describe. Sometimes it would work alright dropping back to idle right away other times I would have to use the clutch to drag the engine down a bit... running around 2000. The ECU is stock as is the engine. What it ended up being was that I had adjusted the throttle cable too tight when I installed the engine. The cable was binding up and holding the throttle open.
Nothing more complicated than that. If you arent turning anything else up you might check it out.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Touche...Def something to check for:thumbup:


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

jogiiara said:


> I had a similar problem with my MkII. It has a '97 ABA installed and was hanging like you describe. Sometimes it would work alright dropping back to idle right away other times I would have to use the clutch to drag the engine down a bit... running around 2000. The ECU is stock as is the engine. What it ended up being was that I had adjusted the throttle cable too tight when I installed the engine. The cable was binding up and holding the throttle open.
> Nothing more complicated than that. If you arent turning anything else up you might check it out.


Tried that. This is definitely a chip/programming issue. If you install chip A and the problem is appears and then you put in chip B and the problem goes away...


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i will be receiving a deramped throttle body to test out on the stock chip probably tomorrow and then will be receiving a new updated bfi/c2 chip (dealing with the checksum ROM error) soon as well...also my ported and decked head is shipping tomorrow!!!!! 
hoping to have a few report backs before turkey gobble gobble day. :beer:


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Well, mine is dead. Prior to diagnosing the root cause I re-timed it and fired it up, and I think at that point the crank timing sprocket had already slipped, which I'm pretty sure bent all the valves. No compression after putting a new sprocket on and re-timing it. Anyway, I think that's the end of the road for this car, I'm gonna get something newer. I'll be parting the car out (or if someone wants a parts car they can take the whole thing). Check out the classifieds if you're interested in any of my parts. Good luck with the rev hang.

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Patrick007 said:


> Well, mine is dead. Prior to diagnosing the root cause I re-timed it and fired it up, and I think at that point the crank timing sprocket had already slipped, which I'm pretty sure bent all the valves. No compression after putting a new sprocket on and re-timing it. Anyway, I think that's the end of the road for this car, I'm gonna get something newer. I'll be parting the car out (or if someone wants a parts car they can take the whole thing). Check out the classifieds if you're interested in any of my parts. Good luck with the rev hang.
> 
> -Patrick


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Really sorry to hear that Patrick, enjoy whatever the next car is going to be, and don't forget the good times this one gave you. (ignore the bad parts lol)

Kei


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

Patrick007 said:


> Well, mine is dead. Prior to diagnosing the root cause I re-timed it and fired it up, and I think at that point the crank timing sprocket had already slipped, which I'm pretty sure bent all the valves. No compression after putting a new sprocket on and re-timing it. Anyway, I think that's the end of the road for this car, I'm gonna get something newer. I'll be parting the car out (or if someone wants a parts car they can take the whole thing). Check out the classifieds if you're interested in any of my parts. Good luck with the rev hang.
> 
> -Patrick


so would you say the chip caused this?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

cm123 said:


> so would you say the chip caused this?


You're not serious, are you? How would a sheared crank pulley key-way be caused by a _chip tune_?


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

911_fan said:


> You're not serious, are you? How would a sheared crank pulley key-way be caused by a _chip tune_?


i meant to quote big V with the rom error issue not patrick :facepalm:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

doh! 

Cant wait to hear his review on the throttle.


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

i just went through the exact same thing this summer man sheared off the keyway on the timing sprocket and fail no compression , but i had extra valves so it took an afternoon to put her all back together

NO COMPRESSION...  











TEAR DOWN











FAIL











VALVE-8 ZACH-0











LAPPING THE VALVES










THE REBUILD


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

So who loves German interference engines?


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## JP_JETTA (Oct 14, 2011)

awesome post, had the C2 software installed a few months ago, same exact issues with my engine idle speed and bucking when letting go the gas at low speeds, and all that stuff about pressing the clutch at the stops and getting oscillation between 1600-2100, has anybody found a solution for it ? and whats about you guys screwing up you engines ? hope this chip can't land out in such an epic fail  May it mess with timing too much ??


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## JP_JETTA (Oct 14, 2011)

heres my mods, C2 Stage 2 270 cam specific PEM, test-pipe instead of CAT, super hockey-puck motor mount, 270 autotech cam, neuspeed adjustable cam pulley, big-hole-in-airbox mod, K&N panel filter, bumper to inner airbox air duct, HD springs, deramped throttle body, pcv-to-the-ground bypass, weight removal done, soon 2,25" magnaflow catback, done back all the vacuum system. But what is the SAI? is that the plug in the intake elbow ? what would be the best way to delete it if so ? I just filled it with a compacted cloth, put a platic wrap on it, an then got loose on electrical tape


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

THis is very interesting about the 98+ cars. I was talking with Victor (the big v) about this yesterday. Off the top of my head, the only real difference I can think of that differentiates 96-97 /98-99 cars is the addition of the PCV 'fix' VW added between the intake tube and the PCV puck. That is an extra wire on the upper harness. But I don't see how that would ever effect idle quality. Vic says there are two part numbers for the CPS on the throttle from 97 to 98. But again, I cannot think of anything that would be different. Internally, the throttles are identical and are swappable from any OBDII motor. The ecu's are all the same with the exception of smog changes throughout the years. 

Now, I had both stage 1 and stage 2 on my old motor. Not only that, but used the stage 2 chip on both the modded motor and after I wrecked the good head and went back to a stock OBDII head with both MKIII and MKIV manifolds. I _did_ experience the idle issue, but it _always_ went away after a week or so of driving. Always idled at whatever idle speed I had set. And to reference what I said above, I ran a total of 3 different throttles of various years on that chip tune. In the winter, if I went out to warm the car up, it _did_ occasionally stall out on its own if it sat too long. Never figured out why; just figured it was because it was a heavily modded motor running an aftermarket tune at 7*F. 

But my car was a 97. I'm seeing all these 98 owners speaking up. Honeslty, I think it is just one big coincidence. And Im basing this on what physical differences there are between the model year change. THe only difference is that PCV solenoid/heater in the intake tube. I know the car testing this chip tune on the dyno originally was a 96 motor, so it didnt have that. Is there something in the 98+ programming that is being ignored by a tune that was designed around a 96 engine? Its not SAI, because the tune codes it out. Its not the rear O2 sensor, because the tune numbs it. It's not the TPS/throttle body, because there is zero difference physically on how they are built (regardless of different part numbers for the tps).


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Participate please.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5494097-BFI-PEM-C2-ABA-chip-owners-check-in-please....


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

911_fan said:


> THis is very interesting about the 98+ cars. I was talking with Victor (the big v) about this yesterday. Off the top of my head, the only real difference I can think of that differentiates 96-97 /98-99 cars is the addition of the PCV 'fix' VW added between the intake tube and the PCV puck. That is an extra wire on the upper harness. But I don't see how that would ever effect idle quality. Vic says there are two part numbers for the CPS on the throttle from 97 to 98. But again, I cannot think of anything that would be different. Internally, the throttles are identical and are swappable from any OBDII motor. The ecu's are all the same with the exception of smog changes throughout the years.


your talking about this right?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

yep


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

so if i unplug the sensor from the intake hose, the code should go away?


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

cm123 said:


> so if i unplug the sensor from the intake hose, the code should go away?


That is not a sensor. The vacuum line opens a flap to only allow crank case vapors to enter the intake tube when the engine is running. The electrical connection operates a heating element. This was a fix to help limit the amount of oil that condenses in the intake tube.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

sorry had a few crazy days of work and haven't been keeping up. this is all good stuff...we're narrowing things down and diagnosing this the only way we currently can. 

i need to test/drive this ported/deramped tbody a bit more...i've only driven it around for 20 minutes every other night to park it lately. it does have the vacuum nipple on it for 98+ cars so it's compatible with my PCV setup. i'm not ready to give up on it and hoping my car adapts sooner rather than later. 

is the simple PCV mod to put a plug on the tbody end, delete section on intake elbow (aftermarket tube etc), and put a mini filter breather on the PCV side? how does that keep pressure though?

i can't figure out what the difference would be between the years as 911_fan stated...it even seems as though there are a few 96-97 engines having these issues which would eliminate any 98+ correlation i'm obsessed with believing. i wish i had VAGCOM...i feel like we need some more data logging/plotting to see the differences and isolate the problems. there just don't seem to be any consistencies i can hold on to logically at the moment. did any of your smarter engineer/mechanical guys find anything from Patrick007's data that could be useful and point out something? ignition timing was strange right? and Fast VW pulled a plug and it was wet with gas during his testing? so the injectors were off? (some "safe" mode all spraying at once oorr..?) 

could the PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) be part of the problem? most of the issues we've seen seem to be almost like a vacuum problem...could there be something related? i'm still waiting for my updated (3rd gen) BFI chip to come in the mail so i can't go play with it and test plugging or opening/releasing vacuum on it. has anyone with the chip issues modded or messed with their PCV to attempt to get a positive reaction out of their idle? (note--i have a new PCV in from when i put a new valve cover gasket in last year.)

it seems like there are a couple different problems and not simply one thing maybe. so far we have ignition timing and possible vacuum issues...?


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

cm123 said:


> your talking about this right?


i have a 98 and is doesn't have that???


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

new exhaust and headers will be done shortly and i can get some driving time on the new chip BFI sent me


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

yeah it was only second half of 98+ as far as i know...so late 1998-cabrio mk3.5's i believe are only (ABA) ones had the heat sender and vac line on the PCV/tbody...we got an early 1998 for our lemons race car and it didnt have it either...


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

The Big V said:


> it seems like there are a couple different problems and not simply one thing maybe. so far we have ignition timing and possible vacuum issues...?


I believe its 1 issue. And I still suspect a fueling issue such as the IDC being to high as the ECU transitions from warm up mode to warmed up. But I hope that when it is fixed someone posts what the actual issue was. I suspect that C2 will fix it but never reveal the answer because the information will be considered proprietary.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

The Big V said:


> yeah it was only second half of 98+ as far as i know...so late 1998-cabrio mk3.5's i believe are only (ABA) ones had the heat sender and vac line on the PCV/tbody...


My '98 Jetta has one, but i"ve never seen another one with it before. I did have it uninstalled for quite a while with no new check engine lights or differences to the way the car ran. I just installed an intake tube from the previous model years, and put a plug on the nipple.

It's installed again on the car for now though while since I was grasping at straws looking for every possible thing that could be the problem. (it's not the issue)

Kei


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

My 98 does not have that PCV valve connector.

Update... well it turns out I can't afford an R32 yet, so I caved in and fixed the ABA grr, needed all new valves, and I smoothed out the dings in the pistons.. f-ing car is pissing me off.

I just started it up for the first time after the repair (no coolant or belts yet, just wanted to make sure it ran), and it has two minor issues. One is a slight lifter tick which hopefully will go away after a little driving and higher oil pressures. The other issue, when I first started the motor again after the repair, the idle went NUTS. It was idling at 3k and wouldn't come down. I thought I had a massive vacuum leak somewhere, but took the BFI chip out and put the GIAC chip back in, fired it up, and the idle settled right down like normal. To me it's clearly a chip problem. I'm gonna run the GIAC chip until the 3rd gen BFI chip arrives in the mail. 

Also caved and bought a new CAT, gonna try emissions testing again today before something else goes wrong.

I luv v-dubs but my goddddd so frustrated. 














































-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Patrick007 said:


> My 98 does not have that PCV valve connector.
> 
> Update... well it turns out I can't afford an R32 yet, so I caved in and fixed the ABA grr, needed all new valves, and I smoothed out the dings in the pistons.. f-ing car is pissing me off.
> 
> ...



glad to have ya back


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i just got my version 3 BFI chip in!!....trying to decide whether or not to install this weekend while testing the deramped/ported throttle out orrr just wait til after thanksgiving as i've gotta make a rather long drive down to VA and back next week. 

i have to get my money back from a not so great head build and get a new one built at a diff shop and then can finally move fwd in that dept as well...i'm only about 6 months behind on this build at this point and the living room is getting messy with parts ha.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I really hope that TB isnt bunk. I can always do another for youif you get a spare.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

The Big V said:


> i just got my version 3 BFI chip in!!....trying to decide whether or not to install this weekend while testing the deramped/ported throttle out orrr just wait til after thanksgiving as i've gotta make a rather long drive down to VA and back next week.
> 
> i have to get my money back from a not so great head build and get a new one built at a diff shop and then can finally move fwd in that dept as well...i'm only about 6 months behind on this build at this point and the living room is getting messy with parts ha.


install now!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup:didnt even now they had a 3rd tune i didnt even bother installing my 2nd one since it was shot to begin with....lets cross our fingers boys!!!!:laugh::laugh:


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Patrick007 said:


> Update... well it turns out I can't afford an R32 yet, so I caved in and fixed the ABA grr, needed all new valves, and I smoothed out the dings in the pistons.. f-ing car is pissing me off.
> 
> -Patrick


Welcome back sir 

Kei


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

The Big V said:


> i just got my version 3 BFI chip in!!....trying to decide whether or not to install this weekend while testing the deramped/ported throttle out orrr just wait til after thanksgiving as i've gotta make a rather long drive down to VA and back next week.
> 
> i have to get my money back from a not so great head build and get a new one built at a diff shop and then can finally move fwd in that dept as well...i'm only about 6 months behind on this build at this point and the living room is getting messy with parts ha.


3RD what was wrong with the 2ND i havent really had a chance to drive the car with the one they sent me , i just started it on 3 different days and let it idle for 30 mins or so seemed fine.....KEEP ME POSTED


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

^^the rich code was still poppin up and there was also a whole new one ....like a control module code I think I don't feel like reading the thread to know for sure....but yeah the second tune was shotskee too that's y I didn't even bother installing it....kinda got my money on the third tune


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

so the 3rd revised chip doesnt throw any codes?
looks like im gonna have to call up and ask them to send me the new one


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

We are all basically testing these chipa for them to help get them right. If you have a chip put it in and test it. I think its awesome they care enough about us to keep up on this. If you have vagcom then throw some data up as well. I got a 3rd revised chip because they are eliminating issues one by one as they come up...the 2nd chip still had a few issues for some people but seemed to work for others. You are all gonna have to do a little bit of work for us all to end up w a chip thats flawless. I will most likely install my chip afffter thanksgiving - next week just because i have a few other things to do to prep my car for the drive south. It takes about 20 minutes though to test a chip...if i had vagcom i'd install now and vring everything down w me but i cant read codes etc away from work. Keep up the good work guys!! We are getting so close!


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

One other thing---i noticed that california emissions was programmed into my ecu when i was clearing and checking data for my ported throttle body. Do you guys think that programming could be part of the problem?? Theres a different radiator hose setup but what other differences are there really??? And was it all through obdii that they had cali emissions cars or just 98+?? its a small thing and most likely negligible but throwin it out there anyway.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

cm123 said:


> so the 3rd revised chip doesnt throw any codes?
> looks like im gonna have to call up and ask them to send me the new one


We dont know yet...the goal is to eventually get a chip revision that solves all the bugs. there was a ROM error CEL before w the 2nd chip...we're gettin there


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## JP_JETTA (Oct 14, 2011)

and if i have a defectuous c2 chip, if i cant find the bill about that transaction, may i get it exchanged for a good one once the programming issues gets solved??


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

JP_JETTA said:


> and if i have a defectuous c2 chip, if i cant find the bill about that transaction, may i get it exchanged for a good one once the programming issues gets solved??


i do not work for C2 or BFI but they have been very supportive in trying to solve this with us and backing their product and their customers. they initially offered an updated chip for a small fee ($20?) you can see a page or two back in this thread....i am sure they will offer you an upgrade for a reasonable deal but you will have to contact them for the final word on that. read through the pages of this thread and catch up a bit and keep up on it and we'll hopefully get these chips perfected soon! :beer::thumbup:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Charge you $20?!?!? Where the hell do they get off _charging_ you guys for a _correct_ tune?? Seriously? You guys shouldn't have to pay a dime. You already paid them $200 for an ECU tune that is supposed to be a quality product and run properly....not throw erroneous CEL codes and make your car run like ass. Hate to say this, but charging their customers for an updated tune that supposedly corrects these issues is both preposterous and shameful. :thumbdown:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i agree but i cant speak for what their policy is or why some people have had a small fee...they've been sending me chips to test and been really awesome and supportive so far. i am not certain the conditions that some people were charged 20-50$ for upgrades or what the dealio is/was. they also told me that i could receive a full refund at any time if i chose. personally they've been great with communication etc...i think C2 made a statement earlier in this thread about a small fee but i think it was a bit too soon as the chip is still not 100%...we're getting there though i hope. 



911_fan said:


> Charge you $20?!?!? Where the hell do they get off _charging_ you guys for a _correct_ tune?? Seriously? You guys shouldn't have to pay a dime. You already paid them $200 for an ECU tune that is supposed to be a quality product and run properly....not throw erroneous CEL codes and make your car run like ass. Hate to say this, but charging their customers for an updated tune that supposedly corrects these issues is both preposterous and shameful. :thumbdown:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

this was the statement made by C2---



[email protected] said:


> Something HAS been done! :thumbup:
> 
> Here at C2, when we have a known issue with one of our products, we make sure to jump right on it to satisfy any customer having similar issues. We have recently talked to BFI and have come up with a solution for everyone regarding to issues with this software to upgrade.
> 
> ...


i have only been dealing directly with BFI at this point though...i would simply contact whomever you bought the chip from and point them towards this thread if you are having similar issues. as well, if you have the ability to test a chip out or VAGCOM avail to plot some data that'd be really helpful in figuring this out. thanks vortexers.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

My car finally passed emissions with a new CAT!!! Car is running fine on the GIAC chip after the head rebuild (with rev hang and very slight ping as I noticed when I last ran the GIAC chip), but hopefully this latest BFI chip will clear the rev hang issues. 

One thing I want to note though... While re-building my cylinder head after shearing the crank sprocket, I DID find a vacuum leak that I had not noticed before. Upon initial startup after the rebuild (with the original Rev A BFI stage 2 chip), it wouldn't idle below 2.5k RPM. At that point I hadn't found the vacuum leak yet. I thought maybe it had something to do with the chip, so I put the GIAC chip back in, and voila, idled perfectly again. It was AFTER I put the GIAC chip back in that I found the vacuum leak. What's interesting to me, is that the GIAC chip seemed to be able to adapter instantly to the vacuum leak, and still kept the idle under control. The BFI chip, however, would not bring the idle back down to normal with the vacuum leak. This leads me to believe that perhaps the BFI tune is not as robust to small vacuum leaks as other tunes are? I still say this has something to do with the feedback loop for the idle control motor. 

I saw my Rev C chip in the mailbox today. I will be installing it after work and reporting back. 

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

WHERE was the vacuum leak?? does anyone have a good vacuum diagram for these engines?? i wonder if the rev hang issue isn't from vac leaks hidden...i'm testing out this deramped/ported throttle body and getting funny idle issues as if there's a vac leak...i replaced almost all the lines last year with rubber but i have silicone vac line and want to do the entire system again i think. if the CEL issues are all fixed in this 3rd version of the BFI chip and the rev hang is fixed with replacing bad vac lines then we're all set! could an air leak result in funky injector and ignition timing as it's trying to adapt or go into a default mode??


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

The vacuum leak I had was at the little plastic distribution knub, halfway between the intake manifold and the brake booster. Good thing VW had that line in stock for the low low price of 7 million dollars. 

*Revision C Stage 2 chip review*

I put the latest chip in last night, and I have about 50 miles on it. Overall, I would say this tune is much better than previous versions. Thus far I have CEL and no pending codes. I would say the lower RPM bucking is largely (if not completely) eliminated. Regarding rev hang, I would also say at this point that the rev hang is significantly reduced BUT, I wouldn't call it cured at this point. 

As compared to the GIAC chip, with the AC OFF, the rev hang is improved. Every once in a while it seems like the rev creep up a couple hundred RPM when I push the clutch in, but overall I'd say (with the AC OFF), the rev-hang issue is much better.

Again, with the AC off, if I compare the Revision C rev-hang to when I FIRST put the original BFI chip in (those first 4 days), then I would say the rev-hang was still better with the original chip. As I've said before, during the first 4 days I ran the stage 2 chip, the throttle would SNAP shut when I pushed the clutch in to change gear. I hate to harp on this but, those first 4 days are my metric of success now. During the first 4 days of running the original tune, I would say that's the only time I've ever actually felt like the motor had a lightweight flywheel, because the revs would plummet when the clutch was pushed, and you could gear a noticeably visceral sound of vacuum from the intake. 

If I never experienced those first 4 days of awesomeness with the original BFI chip, I would probably say this tune is perfect, with ONE exception....

If I turn the AC on, the rev hang is clearly back. I can get the revs to stick at 2000RPM, and they won't fall unless I use the clutch to 'pull' the motor back to idle...

Whatever C2/BFI has been doing to the tune, you're going in the right direction. Go a little farther to the AC Off tune, and you need to take some bigger steps when addressing the idle feedback loop with the AC turned ON.

-Patrick


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

so this chip eliminates code p0172?
also who did you go through to get the newly revised chip?


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

I put another 50+ miles on it last night with the Revision C chip. So far no CEL, no pending codes. I've been working with BFI so I received my chip from them. Again I think this is a very good tune, and is probably perfectly fine for most people, with the exception of the AC-on rev-hang issue. I can log more data if people would like to see. Assuming the idle speed blocks are still open via VAGCOM, I'm going to try lowering the idle down a bit further (it's at about 1000 out of the box) to see if that helps to get me closer to that ultra-snappy throttle closing that it had back in the first few days of Revision A. 

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

hope you all had a great thanksgiving!

i ended up taking the ported/deramped throttle body out as i was having issues with it...the odd thing is the issues seem very similar to the original BFI chip issues....i was having surging and rough lower rpm driving, idle rising, i started getting misfiring the other day and didnt know what was going on...changed plugs to new bremi silicone plugs and checked plugs and i had a wet (fuel) plug...swapped that plug with a diff cylinder's and took out throttle body and put my oem one back in...no problems at all and car drives strong currently. i was getting a p1226 code which stated TPS (throttle sensor) but when i looked up the code it said its for cylinder 2 injector...?? so weird as that was the plug that was wet....i just never hear of these injectors ever failing...but often times if issues with plugs or wires an injector code can come up. so i can't say for certain it was the plugs/wires or the tbody causing misfiring (never heard of a tbody causing misfiring) but the idle is super smooth and while the progression of power as i lay the pedal down doesnt seem as powerful it still feels very strong.

i am a bit exhausted from turkey festivities as well as the roadside fix but will install new bfi 3rd version chip sometime this week. apologies for the delays.

edit--i still seem to be having some issues with misfire/injector or something so i am trying to straighten out before i put the new revised chip in.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Patrick007 said:


> I put another 50+ miles on it last night with the Revision C chip. So far no CEL, no pending codes. I've been working with BFI so I received my chip from them. Again I think this is a very good tune, and is probably perfectly fine for most people, with the exception of the AC-on rev-hang issue. I can log more data if people would like to see. Assuming the idle speed blocks are still open via VAGCOM, I'm going to try lowering the idle down a bit further (it's at about 1000 out of the box) to see if that helps to get me closer to that ultra-snappy throttle closing that it had back in the first few days of Revision A.
> 
> -Patrick


i wonder if the next revision of the chip they dont set idle speed and just allow us to set it via vagcom if that would help..? if you have a series of coding telling the computer to do things differently in two separate places i wonder if that would be an issue? *is anyone with a stage 1 chip experiencing the rev hang/idle rise issues??*


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

The Big V said:


> *is anyone with a stage 1 chip experiencing the rev hang/idle rise issues??*


Mine wasn't programmed for a cam....though the idle was strangely still set at 1050rpm when I got it. I thought that was strange since it's for a stock head/cam...either way my car still acts the same as everyone else's.

Kei


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

im on my second chip at the moment. i got it back in september i believe. my first one was complete garbage. i had rev hang all the time, wouldnt idle properly when warm and would stall out while idleing cold,had a code for com error, surging and bucking at low rpms, ran rich like crazy, and the car would accelerate even when i was of the gas due to the idle surging. i sent the chip back because i eventually lost my cel and nothing was communicating, meaning i had a bad module, and hence they sent me a new one for no cost. i can say that i no longer have the code for the com error. rev hang still happens but not very often, and for the first few days it was non existent. fuel ecconomy still sucks in the city, getting like 15 mpg, but highway i was getting 35 mpg with a lot of work done to my engine, which really suprised me. unfortuanatly i cant say anymore because i havnt driven my car since early october when my hall sender conveniently decided it was time to go while on my way to work on the highway and ive lost my ignition. i should have it back together and running next week, so after that ill get myself some fresh 93 oct gas and run the old crap out the system and report back for yas. i know this chip isnt perfect, but then again i cant remember everything that was still wrong with it.

** my chip is a stage 2 and my car is a 98 jetta 5spd. ill post my mods and issues in the other thread to help out.


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

i just got my car back from the body shop from doing all the the rust repair.. im away at school so my dad had to pick it up for me.. he was driving back from the shop and after driving for 30minutes the car shut off on him while driving..
now im not sure if it may be from the car not being started or driven in about 3 weeks or from this damn chip  .. ill keep you posted.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

damn! 



cm123 said:


> i just got my car back from the body shop from doing all the the rust repair.. im away at school so my dad had to pick it up for me.. he was driving back from the shop and after driving for 30minutes the car shut off on him while driving..
> now im not sure if it may be from the car not being started or driven in about 3 weeks or from this damn chip  .. ill keep you posted.


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

The Big V said:


> damn!


yea man.. this is chip #2 so this maybe why i dont really know.. im just frustrated with this damn problem were having with it.. i could have spent half the amount for a TT chip that wouldnt cause any problem but i went with c2 based on all the good stuff everyone has said about them..
on monday i should have an answer as if its the chip or something else. regardless if it isnt the chip im gonna call c2 and ask for the 3rd revision chip that came out since this one is giving me cel for P0172


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Well I've got quite a few miles on the 3rd chip now (Revision C as I've been calling it), and the rev-hang problem is most certainly not fixed. The more I drive the car, the worst it seems to get. I don't get any CEL currently, but the revs hang all the time, and there are definitely times when it feels like the car wants to accelerate when I'm off the throttle. The low rpm bucking issue has also returned. 

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

that stinks! why would it eventually get worse?? bummed to hear this.

i'm dealing with a stuck open fuel injector at the moment it looks like (started getting codes p1226 and p1238 along with misfiring again and wet #2 spark plug)...i swapped the injector with another cylinders and in the next few days will know if its actually the injector or wiring or something different. i reeeally hope my block doesn't get damaged while i try to figure this out..! i'll check the compression after i see if the problem switches cylinders with the injector.

i cleaned the plugs and checked all the wiring for the injectors (i installed new plug wires just last week)...also changed a bunch of my vac lines to silicone while i was digging around the other night...cleaned up my engine block grounds and went over some electrical issues i was having with my rear lights...still having fog light fuse issues so gotta check that another time. i'm waaayyy off schedule now to test the chip let alone get my new engine head and everything together...i'm worried now it won't all be running right before christmas to be able to drive to see the family even argh...gonna spend more time sorting all these problems out and make sure its running 100% asap before upgrading any mechanical or ecu anyhow....i'm really due for a timing belt and water pump based on the previous owner not knowing when one was done. cross your fingers its just the single fuel injector stuck thats the big issue and i'll be sourcing another used one to swap in and can start moving forward again. argh.

i've never had an injector go like this...i'm slightly worried messing with the tps and the chip that the injector may have failed prematurely...is that ridiculous? i think i'm just really frustrated. i really need to get VAGCOM...using the actron obdii scanner doesn't give me specific enough data.

patrick007 -- how much did it cost to get all your injectors tested and up to spec (new gaskets for em)? was it a local place or somewhere else you got the work done? i might source a used set and send them off...er maybe i need 5 because one immediately to swap in.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

ok so0 correct me if im wrong...but is this third tune just as bad as the other two?
we are fighting a loosing battle boys....time to keep it moving and invest in a TT


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i apologize i can't report on the 3rd tune yet as i'm trying to get my ABA in 100% shape inbetween work still...i'll post up as soon as i do though. feel free to contact BFI and try to make some progress development on this yourself as well...as i stated before if we want a solution to this then we are going to have to work for it...i'm not giving up this early.



gtiswapped96 said:


> ok so0 correct me if im wrong...but is this third tune just as bad as the other two?
> we are fighting a loosing battle boys....time to keep it moving and invest in a TT


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

The Big V said:


> i apologize i can't report on the 3rd tune yet as i'm trying to get my ABA in 100% shape inbetween work still...i'll post up as soon as i do though. feel free to contact BFI and try to make some progress development on this yourself as well...as i stated before if we want a solution to this then we are going to have to work for it...i'm not giving up this early.


Yeah I hear ya buddy its just we've all been at this for a while now...and from what I'm reading there really hasn't been any progress now I might be wrong cause I don't feel like going back through the thread right now but it ain't looking pretty for us:sly:


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## cm123 (Jun 3, 2010)

bump


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Waiting til holidays over as i just have too much to deal with/too busy. 

The good news is looking into PC laptop and options for vagcom...might help to compare/contrast w others as well as diagnose this pesky issue(s).

Thx for the bump! Anyone else have updates or new info?

Happy holidays and new year everyone!!


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Ok here's an update I guess...I've been driving with the pending p0172 code with no light since h2oi...since I don't see a light it doesn't matter as much to me..the rev hang hasn't been as bad either...anyways I start playing around wit the ac the other day then here's comes the horrible idle and the stank light....so I dunno fellas....maybe we should all get ac deletes and solve that issue lol


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Happy new year bump!

Haha it's 75deg in SoCal this week... I would die without AC. It's been business as usual for my ABA, runs alright but definite rev hang issues. I'm gonna fire off another email to BFI right now to make sure they haven't forgotten about this. My guess though is that they nor C2 are going to fix this any time soon. If I recall, someone said the guy who did the coding for C2 (Jeff?) has moved on from that company, and it seems like C2 doesn't have a programmer on staff that has wrapped their head around this issue yet. Plus with the age of these motors and the relatively small market, I'm sure this is extremely low priority for these tuner companies. For those without emissions testing, maybe megasquirt is worth the effort?

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Happy New Year to everyone....thanks for updating Patrick007

well i successfully drove to VA and back to NYC for the holiday again...after the terrible supposed injector issue over thanksgiving that sidelined me for a couple hrs i was happy to have an uneventful drive roundtrip this time. i swapped my cyl#2 injector with my cyl#4 one and rewrapped a few of the wires going to the injectors...put silicone vac lines all over and haven't had any issues at all since...no CEL, no misfiring, nada. i put some chevron techron additive in my fuel tank as well before the trip. i wonder if it wasn't actually just some bad fuel i got during my turkey day trip..!? just weird that only one injector would have been affected. i had to quickly swap my rear shocks out and get my winter tires mounted and get my wheels on before the trip but now everything is done and seems all good soooooo in the next week i will finally install the third revision C2 BFI chip!!!! sorry for the long wait.

Patrick007 -- let me know what the boys at BFI/C2 say! i'm also getting VAGCOM setup in the next week or so as well and might need a little crash course in using it haha...but i'm hoping that between our data logs they can help us figure something out.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

V.....clear some space in your inbox dummy lol 

Kei


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Haha thanks..that isht adds up quick...made some room--resend please! 



Kiyokix said:


> V.....clear some space in your inbox dummy lol
> 
> Kei


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Ahahahahhaaha check this **** out guess who just popped a lean code!!! Wtf p0171 I dunno fellas...someone's really thinking bout a 1.8 swapskees!!!! This **** is bananas


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Okay I spoke with Joe from BFI again via email. At this point those of us with idle issues with the stage 2 chip are in the minority, and BFI's local car is running well on the new software, thus they're not really putting much more effort into this issue. Joe also said they haven't really received much feedback from those of us who got the new chips. From their perspective the problem is limited to a couple of cases, thus we may need to re-visit the idea that it's something wrong our individual cars (vacuum leaks, etc). BFI offered to put me in touch with the programmer from C2 for a custom tune, but to me it's not worth going down that path. I also requested that BFI post some video of their local test car, particularly with the AC on, so that we could see how the car should be behaving with regard to the rev-hang. Given that my idle will often stick at 2k RPM with the AC on, I'm very curious to see how there could be such a drastic different with their test car. If that's the case, then there must be something awry with my ABA. 

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i haven't reported back to them because it's been the holidays and i had weird injector issues for a couple weeks...i'll try to get on this soon...i also need to get my vagcom setup...so much to do...not a lotta time...argh




Patrick007 said:


> Okay I spoke with Joe from BFI again via email. At this point those of us with idle issues with the stage 2 chip are in the minority, and BFI's local car is running well on the new software, thus they're not really putting much more effort into this issue. Joe also said they haven't really received much feedback from those of us who got the new chips. From their perspective the problem is limited to a couple of cases, thus we may need to re-visit the idea that it's something wrong our individual cars (vacuum leaks, etc). BFI offered to put me in touch with the programmer from C2 for a custom tune, but to me it's not worth going down that path. I also requested that BFI post some video of their local test car, particularly with the AC on, so that we could see how the car should be behaving with regard to the rev-hang. Given that my idle will often stick at 2k RPM with the AC on, I'm very curious to see how there could be such a drastic different with their test car. If that's the case, then there must be something awry with my ABA.
> 
> -Patrick


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

Patrick007 said:


> Okay I spoke with Joe from BFI again via email. At this point those of us with idle issues with the stage 2 chip are in the minority, and BFI's local car is running well on the new software, thus they're not really putting much more effort into this issue. Joe also said they haven't really received much feedback from those of us who got the new chips. From their perspective the problem is limited to a couple of cases, thus we may need to re-visit the idea that it's something wrong our individual cars (vacuum leaks, etc). BFI offered to put me in touch with the programmer from C2 for a custom tune, but to me it's not worth going down that path. I also requested that BFI post some video of their local test car, particularly with the AC on, so that we could see how the car should be behaving with regard to the rev-hang. Given that my idle will often stick at 2k RPM with the AC on, I'm very curious to see how there could be such a drastic different with their test car. If that's the case, then there must be something awry with my ABA.
> 
> -Patrick


My car doesn't have any issues with the TT chip only with the C2 chip. The C2 chip does feel like it has more pep so I run that chip and put up with the issues. I am 150% possitive there is nothing wrong with my car as the issues are only with the C2 chip.


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## Patrick007 (Nov 24, 2007)

Fast VW said:


> My car doesn't have any issues with the TT chip only with the C2 chip.


Same here.. with the GIAC chip in the idle is just fine. I'm only like 95% sure there's nothing wrong with my car (as opposed to your 150%), but I'm just wondering if the BFI/C2 chip isn't as resilient to other small maladies, again such as vacuum leaks. Maybe the coding on other chips is more robust and less sensitive to small issues? The BFI/C2 chip is peppy tho... so, like you, I guess I'll deal with the idle issues. The rev hang really ruins the gear change experience though  I'm pretty damn to getting an R32 at least!

-Patrick


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

UPDATE!! 

i fiiiinally installed my latest revision chip (revision C or #3)...sorry took so long everyone. i had a craaazzzy VW weekend of installs and fixes. so at the same time i installed the chip. so far no codes (pending either). drives very strong! no bucking or anything yet. no rev rise but the revs go down so slowly it seems :/ i wouldn't say they hang but they don't fall like they should. maybe its just the idle setting coding?? i dunno. the car idles at 1100 rpms steady as a rock. i have NOT tried a/c yet as its been freezing cold but will try in next day or two. did we ever verify that chips without the idle set (so a stage 1 chip i guess) not have this problem? 

nothing engine related on these installs but did all this at same time...car drives happier now. 
(oem trans oil change, swapped bad rear bilstien shock with another used one, rewired my ecode headlights, installed shine racing rear sway bar, installed powdercoated oem calipers-brembo slotted discs-ss lines-racing blue fluid-hawk hps pads), changed some other interior and exterior light bulbss and fixed other little things.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm having the same problems you guys are having. I have a huge email string going with C2 (bought the chip from BFI but went right to C2 because I knew they made it). They have been NO HELP. They told me that they have a lot of these chips out and don't have much problem with the..... This is after they posted in this thread!!! Unfortunately I didn't know about this thread until today. I have been talking with Ryan @ C2. I wish they would fix their crap. They had a good reputation, thats why i popped for their chip. I have sent them many logs but have not heard anything about them working on a solution. I am currently running an R ECU with the PCV fix to see if that makes a difference, even though they said this: 

It is our understanding that all XXX XXX 259 ECUs are interchangeable within that application. 
Sorry we could not have been of more help. 

I don't know if they are blowing me off or what. I have replaced everything sensor related that I can think of in the car and they are not even suggesting that the problem is with my car. At the same time they have taken no responsibility either.... 

I would be happy to send someone the emails if you would like to read it. I cold post it too but its LONGGGGGG.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

you have VAGCOM data logs?? maybe post some of those pertaining to the logs discussed earlier in this thread? the R ecu is a later year? 98+? it seems like my earlier prediction about years is thrown out the window as aaalll OBDII cars are having these issues. i am also guessing that a lot of people do not realize they are having issues :/ and so do not voice this with c2/bfi or even on here. 



macanic21 said:


> I'm having the same problems you guys are having. I have a huge email string going with C2 (bought the chip from BFI but went right to C2 because I knew they made it). They have been NO HELP. They told me that they have a lot of these chips out and don't have much problem with the..... This is after they posted in this thread!!! Unfortunately I didn't know about this thread until today. I have been talking with Ryan @ C2. I wish they would fix their crap. They had a good reputation, thats why i popped for their chip. I have sent them many logs but have not heard anything about them working on a solution. I am currently running an R ECU with the PCV fix to see if that makes a difference, even though they said this:
> 
> It is our understanding that all XXX XXX 259 ECUs are interchangeable within that application.
> Sorry we could not have been of more help.
> ...


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Well, bad news for testing purposes.... 
I took the car for the first drive last night and the computer died. There is obviously something in the ignition system killing it. I have ordered a stock coil and plug wires as well as another cap and rotor. All Bosh except for the ACDleco coil (couldn't readily find a Bosh one....) 

I'll look for those data logs. I think they are on a different laptop. Here are a few earlier ones in my build thread, prolly don't show the problem. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4643228-The-Thread-Build-(BuildUp-) 

Once I get it running again and inspected I can take as many logs as you guys want. I wish C2 would want to see them..... 

The car ran without any of these issues with the new computer but it was low on power. This is probably meaningless because most of the problems seem to be occurring after some drive time. It only ran for a few min.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Here is one of my logs*

Not sure how this is going to work. It would probably be better for me to email them to whoever wants them, they are big. I did 6 different combos of blocks as per C2's request. This is just the some of the first set. Let me know if you want me to post more. Thanks 

ok, that didn't work 

Alright these are the groups I have logged, Let me know what you guys want and I'll try to take a screen shot of any important parts of the data to post. 

1,2,5 
1,3,5 
25,10,3 
1,2,3 
1,3,5-2 
1,25,5


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

more update!!

got over 70miles on revision C (3rd chip) and it seems to be getting a little better...did a decent weekend trip and got outta the stop/go city driving finally...drove the car hard...tried A/C and no fluctuation with idle/rpms...the revs seem to be falling more normally as well. i've had 2 cases of the rev hang/rise since being back...both times were at low speeds and cutting rpms by engaging the clutch after or before a stop (still in gear) while looking for parking late at night on small side streets. it's been in the 30's at night but the car was warmed up both times. no codes yet but i have to check if any pending. i still have to setup my netbook and vagcom and learn how to use that lovely stuff before i can give you guys some proper data logs and fwd them to c2/bfi. i definitely feel like we are getting soo much closer to fixing this. i don't understand how anyone does NOT have some issues with the chip though honestly..?? i am curious if they just don't notice it or don't mention it. i wanna see video footage of the bfi car driving around.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I found that my timing slipped somehow tonight..... I'm going away next week for work so it wont get fixed until after that. Hopefully I stop finding problems with this thing. It seems like everything went south all of the sudden. Oh well, I'll fix it. 

Who are you guys talking with @ C2? The guy I had originally been dealing with quit, then the next guy quit (i think).... I would be willing to pay something for another one, even though they owe me, just to get one that works!


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Well I'm back guys. After months of being away, I'm back to report...everything is still the same...I wash running the so called "Revision B" chip and results are: 
- Rev hang was "almost" eliminated at first but got worse over time
- The System to Rich code still existed
- Best one, the ROM error message that everyone was describing was there
One of the main reasons why I was gone, I paid $20 for the new and improved version and the Revision "A" was better than the revision "B" version. I was just too ****ing mad to deal with this that I needed a break. Since then, I have NOT contacted BFI or C2 about the issue and I am currently running revision "A". At least with this version I only have 1 CEL instead of 2. The car seems to do worse when cold starting the vehicle and whenever it is cold out. After the vehicle is fully warmed up, the rev hang still exists, but its not as bad. If rev hang gets too bad, I unplug my battery at night then re-adapt my tb in the morning...I do this about once a week!

*Side note* From the end to December to the beginning of January, I ran the stock OEM chip. Not a SINGLE CEL came up, not a single rev hang, and my fuel economy improved! Hate to say, but it's got to be the chip!

Mods: BFI/C2 Stage 2 chip, Autotech 260* cam, cai, deramped tb, autotech 2.5" exhaust, 2.5" maganaflow hi-flow cat, pacesetter header, msd blaster coil, pcv reroute, BFI stg .5 engine/tranny mounts


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

....Also have REALLY been thinking about getting a cam specific TT file! I am beyond frustrated with this file! ...But I still love my little ABA Golf!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

^^ At least send them back the "B" chip! Maybe when they get their own chip in the mail marked Fix Your Crap!, they will realize the scope of their problem.

I think I'm going to email BFI and see what they say.


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Can't really spend too much money on the Golf right now. Building the ever living crap out of my GLI motor and also just picked me up a Corrado...I just want my MK3 to be running right with a chipped file


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

I Like the guys over at bfi they do pretty good mostly...but they are just selling this chip not programming it ..C2 ls in charge of that....they've already given us two revisions I heard the third tune is the best but ill report on it when get it....and to be honest I doubt there's gonna be a 4th tune fellas....we just have to make due wit wat we have


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

gtiswapped96 said:


> we just have to make due wit wat we have


Well if thats the case they had better look into doing some serious price cuts or there won't be a reason for anyone to buy from them and BFI had better cut their contract and run before they get stuck with C2's bad reputation.


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## GloryFreak (Feb 20, 2009)

Update: I did some messing around with my golf last weekend and I am pleased with the results. From reading back over the tread (can't remember who posted it), I read about someone having a vacuum leak from the master break cylinder to the intake manifold. I thought to myself that my car is 16 years old and why the hell not. I replaced the entire plastic lines going from the master cylinder to the intake manifold and got rid of those pesky plastic white vacuum lines with rubber vacuum hoses. Also, I completely redid all of my grounds and terminal connections to make sure I was getting complete connectivity to my battery. Since then, I have driven the car about a week and a half and put about 125 miles on the vehicle. The car pulls stronger (in my opinion) then before I did this change up. The car still has some rev hang but its not as bad as before (bare in mind i'm still running the *ORIGINAL* tune and not version B or C). Also, it seems like my fuel economy has increased slightly but I haven't hooked up my vagcom to see if I'm still getting the dreaded system too rich code. If I could get the 3rd revision of the software, I think my car will be exactly where I want it. Like I said, I am very satisfied right now on the way my car drives (just want to get rid of that rev hang issue). The car to me feels like it did the first week I installed the chip and really fun to drive!


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

I had one for a while, it aggravated the hell out of me! I decided to go to a TT cam specific chip.. And that was the end of the rev-hang, idle issue (stalling in cold weather!).. and alot.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

do you feel as though the TT file is anywhere near as aggressive as the BFI/C2 one? pros vs cons? (other than the obvious issues being discussed for 9 pages)

i've been thinking of getting a refund and contacting Jeff @ United Motorsports and seeing if we can't figure this out....but haven't begun that route yet. drove the car yesterday and it performed flawlessly...i still have yet to have any codes at all. but a couple days prior the thing wouldn't stop with the revs rising anytime the clutch went in/idle...it was sooo annoying...sometimes i can't believe how much these chips cost. i have been too busy to set up vagcom or do much but drive the car lately. i still havent had time to install the new head/cam upgrade. i might install a new old fuel injector with the one that was intermittently giving me issues before just as preventive measures but not sure as no present problems (i found a misfire code before i swapped chips from the stock chip this last time).



Hurt said:


> I had one for a while, it aggravated the hell out of me! I decided to go to a TT cam specific chip.. And that was the end of the rev-hang, idle issue (stalling in cold weather!).. and alot.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

I switched from a TT cam chip (266 cam) to the BFI/C2 chip. The C2 chip is noticeably more aggressive with the ignition timing and can be felt particulary at part throttle acceleration. I did have VagCom logs with both chips but I cannot find the logs with TT chip but I do remember the C2 chip had more timing advance during cruising, part throttle and full throttle. IIRC the C2 chip had anywhere between 5-8 degrees more timing. With the TT chip I never saw any knock sensor activity but with the C2 chip I did especially at high rpm if the IATs were high but the TT chip had no flakey idle or code issues.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

The Big V said:


> do you feel as though the TT file is anywhere near as aggressive as the BFI/C2 one? pros vs cons? (other than the obvious issues being discussed for 9 pages)


Vic, I ran a TT266 cam chip for years when I was going through cams. I always hated how the TT chip felt and sometimes it felt like it was keeping the engine from performing well.....like it was holding it back somehow. When I swapped to the PEM, all those issues were INSTANTLY gone. It was like I was never running a chip in the first place. Cant speak for the fueling, but it was obvious the ignition maps were definitely the issue with the TT chip.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

ok update...so the good news is i never got a CEL with the revision C chip with stock head and cam, catback borla exhaust, and lightened flywheel...but i would get rev hang and rev climbing and it was still noticeably jerky at low rpm driving around town.

just over a week ago i fiiinally installed the ported and milled OBDI german head (milled .040, i think 27cc) with 276 cam and lightened/hd internals. i also put in a new tbelt and wpump and tstat and put in a used obx header to complete the exhaust. we set timing at TDC and started 'er up and got a p1582 code...my buddy HGB plugged in his scanner and everything was running great/within specs (fuel etc)..i ran the thing for a week and the only other thing i noticed was a couple stalls on cold startups....then after speaking with Trav and Techtonics Tuning i advanced the timing 5 degrees (2 to compensate for the milling, and 3 for the cam..i might go 1 or 2 more degrees depending)...the tensioner without decent tools can be a pain to tighten/torque but i finally got it. low end torque has a noticeable improvement and powerband feels more linear rather than a big jump of power after 4500rpm....this thing wants to rev forever. i am stiiillll getting the p1582 idle adapt code and the car still stalls on cold starts occasionally. if the idle was simply lopey and that was all i wouldnt care but it can get pretty jerky and the same with the low rpm driving...its just too much...it cant seem to hold anything steady with or without my throttle input below 2500rpms. now the only other thing that i could think would affect this from what's been done is my buddy lost the clip for the throttle cable (holds the sheath in place on up mani)...i miraculously found it after we noticed and we adjusted it and clipped it in...the throttle cable is as it was before...there is the tiniest bit of slack when twisting/pushing and then it pulls open. i still think this has to do with the chip trying to adjust throttle/idle and the tps fighting it...its as if the chip changed 1 of 2 parameters to adjust the idle and the 2nd, being left alone, the car is trying to correct and set normally. when i drive the car and am above 2500 rpms or so the car seems happy and so am i....when i am driving around the city, parking, idling, etc the car is shaking and jerking and soooo annoying. at this stage i am definitely thinking of getting my money back on the chip...i have already made some steps towards an alternative solution. i also emailed Joe at BFI (remember, BFI paid for the research and development of this chip with C2) and he said he is talking with C2 about what more could be done and will get back to me. their efforts are appreciated.

as of right now i still do not have vagcom setup on my little used netbook i picked up...i just havent had time to install an OS (windows + osx) even and just been busy with work and life...sorry i cant post any technical logs on the current status of my car to help diagnose this.

:beer::beer:


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

I pulled out the C2 chip and put my TT cam chip back in. Idle is perfect all of the time. No codes and no pending codes. Car has a little less pep.


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

I just rev c and hope all the issues are resolved ... I'll hopefully have it installed today


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

So far it feels like it has better throttle response and no rev hang or jerkiness when in lower gear revving around 2000rpm also no CELs ..... BUT I've only put 20kms on it so far.. But I hope they got it all sorted out


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

is this a 4th revision or 3rd (C)?? mine started out much better but the rev hang and rev climbing and jerkiness are def still there...its without a doubt better than before...but not improved. and now that i have the 276 cam and ported head in finally i have an idle adapt p1582 code that apparently is from the chip....i'm a bit tired of trying to figure this out for them...i stiiiill need to get vagcom up and running along with getting caught up on some other stuff. what did BFI say last you spoke to them? and what mods do you have done again?


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

Ok so Iam still getting p0440 but it seems to idle much smoother and not as jerky in low rpm/gear also my mods are 268 cam stage 2 PEM header highflow cat cold air intake and 2.25 exhaust


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

Also it's a rev C chip


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## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

i got a bfi chip and it does the rev hang..if i rev it up it will take a few seconds before it goes back to idle at 1k rpm.it will sometimes go between 1000 to 1200 rpm at idle.i even pulled in the driveway and hit the brake pedal and it went to 2k rpm on its own and i did get a rich code last night but i cleared it and i will have to wait and see if it comes back..i didnt pay nothing for the chip (i went to the pick n pull yard and yanked it out of another car).guess i will have to switch the chip as well...i cant afford to have my daily be off the road


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## ELiT3 (May 18, 2011)

I know this is kinda off topic, but a good moment to ask. What chip would you guys suggest for a Autotech 270 cam. Thanks


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

ELiT3 said:


> I know this is kinda off topic, but a good moment to ask. What chip would you guys suggest for a Autotech 270 cam. Thanks


Either a 270* chip from TT, or one from C2.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

it looks like i am going to try one more chip from BFI/C2...revision D (#4)...they are going to send it in the mail soon i hope.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

oh PS-- my car has been stalling, still have the error code (CEL) and still acting up altogether...

i might doublecheck my timing belt tensioner to see if i made it too tight as well.



The Big V said:


> it looks like i am going to try one more chip from BFI/C2...revision D (#4)...they are going to send it in the mail soon i hope.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> it looks like i am going to try one more chip from BFI/C2...revision D (#4)...they are going to send it in the mail soon i hope.


Jeez. 4 different revisions? How many are people going to deal with? I returned my C2 software in less than a month after buying it and dealing with the problems associated with it. What's the difference in HP between a C2 chip and a TT? Maybe 5BHP? If that? To me, I always go with TT, Neuspeed, BahnBrenner, GIAC as they've been around for a long while.. I've run a TT chip on my old Race spec Jetta coupe burned for the 298* Cam. C2 told me that they'd send me one tailored to that. I got a generic stage 2 272* cam profile.. The TT chip performed better on the dyno, too, because the C2 chip only revved to 7k. TT revved to 8k (custom burnt). I put down 160 WHP in that car, and maybe even could have had 180 if I MS'd it. I might buy it back from who I sold it to, for less than I sold it to him for, and it's only been on the track in his hands all of once.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

you are right on some points...but its a lot smoother/better map and now that i've had some of the potential of the c2 chip i am trying to get my money's worth....if this 4th revision (basically deleting the chip holder and putting chip in like the oem chip) doesn't work then i am getting a refund. i appreciate the company trying to work with us and respecting our voices....its a combined effort between business and consumer....and its more than a lot of crap aftermarket companies will do these days...the line of communication has been pretty great with BFI...if the chip doesnt work this next time around at least we can all say we tried....i have a backup solution to verify and i will discuss after testing this final revision. 

how do you know Techtonics chip wasn't tuned to a lower cam setup and it was just the higher revving that brought out more power? where are your dyno plots for comparison?? Techtonics is a fabulous company and i have gotten many many great parts from them. i am just curious for more data/info. 




Hurt said:


> Jeez. 4 different revisions? How many are people going to deal with? I returned my C2 software in less than a month after buying it and dealing with the problems associated with it. What's the difference in HP between a C2 chip and a TT? Maybe 5BHP? If that? To me, I always go with TT, Neuspeed, BahnBrenner, GIAC as they've been around for a long while.. I've run a TT chip on my old Race spec Jetta coupe burned for the 298* Cam. C2 told me that they'd send me one tailored to that. I got a generic stage 2 272* cam profile.. The TT chip performed better on the dyno, too, because the C2 chip only revved to 7k. TT revved to 8k (custom burnt). I put down 160 WHP in that car, and maybe even could have had 180 if I MS'd it. I might buy it back from who I sold it to, for less than I sold it to him for, and it's only been on the track in his hands all of once.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> you are right on some points...but its a lot smoother/better map and now that i've had some of the potential of the c2 chip i am trying to get my money's worth....if this 4th revision (basically deleting the chip holder and putting chip in like the oem chip) doesn't work then i am getting a refund. i appreciate the company trying to work with us and respecting our voices....its a combined effort between business and consumer....and its more than a lot of crap aftermarket companies will do these days...the line of communication has been pretty great with BFI...if the chip doesnt work this next time around at least we can all say we tried....i have a backup solution to verify and i will discuss after testing this final revision.
> 
> how do you know Techtonics chip wasn't tuned to a lower cam setup and it was just the higher revving that brought out more power? where are your dyno plots for comparison?? Techtonics is a fabulous company and i have gotten many many great parts from them. i am just curious for more data/info.


I'm positive the TT chip was custom made, and that it made more HP on the dyno than the c2 chip. I made 159.9 WHP on a dyno with my TT chip. I was excited when I heard about the whole c2 chip being so good, and thought I'd make even more power. I was wrong. With the c2 chip I only made about 155, I believe, and it ran like absolute crap. Stalling, bucking, rev hang.. TT has been around for so long, I tend to believe they're a good company. They do test their products multiple times before releasing them. I've NEVER had a problem with ANY TT product. *except for one that was my fault*. :wave:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Hurt said:


> I'm positive the TT chip was custom made, and that it made more HP on the dyno than the c2 chip. I made 159.9 WHP on a dyno with my TT chip. I was excited when I heard about the whole c2 chip being so good, and thought I'd make even more power. I was wrong. With the c2 chip I only made about 155, I believe, and it ran like absolute crap. Stalling, bucking, rev hang.. TT has been around for so long, I tend to believe they're a good company. They do test their products multiple times before releasing them. I've NEVER had a problem with ANY TT product. *except for one that was my fault*. :wave:


i totally agree about TT...they are awesome...and i wasn't implying they werent. just was curious to see if you made more HP solely because you ran 1000 rpm higher on the TT chip is all. 

we'll see if these BFI/C2 chip issues are finally solved as soon as i get the latest chip in the mail. i am still tempted to go with my backup plan and get a custom solution but want to give this BFI/C2 chip a final shot and some conclusion.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> i totally agree about TT...they are awesome...and i wasn't implying they werent. just was curious to see if you made more HP solely because you ran 1000 rpm higher on the TT chip is all.


No no, the peak power was reached at around 6,200 RPM so the difference wasn't just because of the extra 800 or so RPM. There was really no use revving that engine to 8,000, I shifted it at 7200 in 1st, 7200 in 2nd, 7000 the rest. I could just rev to 8000 safely. :thumbup:
If c2 ends up fixing this chip, I will probably switch over my daily to the C2 file. :wave:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Just for ease will copy/paste what i wrote to BFI about the new revision D (4) chip i installed this weekend.--- 

Got the new chip....installed it Saturday! Ran it for half a day then installed my stock vw chip for an hour or so simply for comparison and then re-installed your new chip. This chip (revision 4 or D) seems like a different map than the previous..?? The idle is not steady...it drops down and stalled at least half dozen times in neutral that day alone. There seems to be NO idle adjustment...??...as when it does idle steady its at 850rpms. Very hard starting when engine cold...like an old carb muscle car. That wasnt the case w the stock chip testing. Do you think the higher set idle is what made the old chips problematic? There is no rev rising yet though! But it nearly feels like the revs are being forced down and its VERY difficult to drive just around town/city...the falling revs might be me just not used to my lightened flywheel again since the older chips revs were always trying to rise unless i brought it down w the clutch...but i didnt have the stallouts w the stock chip during testing. It still feels very on/off cutoff at lower rpms...a little too jerky. Its seems pretty hard on my clutch (or clutch muscle ha) driving around looking for parking. Highway driving (and high rpms) seems similar to before *(c2 chips) with good power. I still think there is more power to be had through programming w a 276 cam and ported head though. If you guys DID adjust idle w this stg 2 cam file chip then its not working on this chip...!? 

Let me know your thoughts and if you can answer or elaborate on any of mine.* 
------- 

To add...a lightened flywheel should make the revs fall faster but not harder as i understand it. I also drive 40+ crazy different cars regularly for work to know how to clutch/drive manual properly....the stock chip revs didnt plummet and force a stall but the revs still fell rapidly. I'm not sure i'm making better sense...long day, time to sleep. Have driven about 100miles at this point...no check engine light for idle adapt or sys rich or anything yet.


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## unknowable (Apr 10, 2011)

Have you checked your Dashpot? Not sure if OBDII has a dashpot, but it may require some adjustment. an over-extended dashpot will cause rev hang.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Im not exactly sure why you all pop the chip in and expect it to adapt instantaneously. Every chip I had, both the V1, it took some time for the chip to adapt and for the idle to be good. You cant just swap back and forth like this and expect results. Ive bee seeing this on this thread a lot with those who get different revisions. And comparing it to the stock chip isnt a good source of comparison. 

I dunno....just my thoughts on what Ive been reading. I ran two original versions of this chip, so Im there with you on all these issues, but for the life of me, i cannot figure out how this has been blown so out of proportion with multiple versions.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

911_fan said:


> Im not exactly sure why you all pop the chip in and expect it to adapt instantaneously. Every chip I had, both the V1, it took some time for the chip to adapt and for the idle to be good. You cant just swap back and forth like this and expect results. Ive bee seeing this on this thread a lot with those who get different revisions. And comparing it to the stock chip isnt a good source of comparison.
> 
> I dunno....just my thoughts on what Ive been reading. I ran two original versions of this chip, so Im there with you on all these issues, but for the life of me, i cannot figure out how this has been blown so out of proportion with multiple versions.


 
I've driven over a 100 miles on the new revision chip...it tries to idle at 850 and often stalls...its supposed to idle around 950-1050 and not stall everytime i am in neutral..i understand the chips/ecu need adapt time. I ran the stock chip for an afternoon to compare basic characteristics and idle because i hadnt run a stock chip since my ported head big cam install. The stock chip idled at 850 immediately and i just needed to differentiate a lopey idle compared to a wonky idle. I had run the revision C chip for weeks beforehand. Joe at BFI thinks this might be a bad burn as they were having issues w chips last week. So i'm getting another revision D (4) chip in soon. This latest chip doesnt have the carrier that the BFI chips usually come with...i'm one of the first testers of this newly encoded chip....this is like the stock chip or TT chip and fits directly in the ecu.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

well so far so good on this new 4th revision chip (4b...or second D chip....however ya wanna say it).....no CELs, no idle issues, good power...only been a few days...gonna give it 2 weeks at least to really see how it adapts and if anything comes up but best initial start of ANY of the chips so far! the last chip definitely had some burn issues/errors as it never really smoothed out after over a week.....this chip has no PEM carrier as well and is a straight chip swap like the oem or TT etc...i'm not sure what else they changed but i'm crossing my fingers that this is the end of my chip swapping days...although i have it down to like 5-10 minutes haha. 

anyone else testing chips still?


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

just pulled a p1582 on the latest chip....this has the idle set to 1050 i believe whereas the previous version 4 chip was normal non adjusted idle at 850....so i'm wondering if that has anything to do with it....tried clearing code but it came back within a couple seconds....will test further and see what else we can determine.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Interesting find, I'm very glad to hear the chip is the best out of any of the previous version so far. I wonder why the code is popping right now, definately keep us posted on what's up with that. 

As soon as they get these babies rockin like they're supposed to, I'll buy a new one so quickly. For now I'm using the TT chip I bought a couple weeks back after removing my chip. No problems at all so far, good power, good response, etc.. 

It's certainly not as good as the PEM chip I was using (when it ran was first installed), but it's keeping me satisfied until the issues are worked out with those. It IS nice to finally not keep wondering if after combing over the car 5000 times looking for problems, that it's not the car though lol. 

*Now* that the p1582 code has shown up on your car, does it still run the same? Still got the same power, same good idle, etc. etc. 

*Also* do you know if they've left in the idle adjustment ability using a vagcom with the newest version of the chip? Just a general question for now, not really asking you to change it during the 2 week 'hope this stays awesome' period. 

Kei


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

Kiyokix said:


> .
> 
> As soon as they get these babies rockin like they're supposed to, I'll buy a new one so quickly. For now I'm using the TT chip
> I


 x2


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

I happened to check out the BFI site today and noticed....they're selling the chips like V has (no more carrier), and they've also dropped the price down to $149.99 

Things are getting more and more intersting indeed. 

Kei


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

Kiyokix said:


> I happened to check out the BFI site today and noticed....they're selling the chips like V has (no more carrier), and they've also dropped the price down to $149.99
> 
> Things are getting more and more intersting indeed.
> 
> Kei


 Yes, I noticed that a week or so ago. :thumbup:


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

are they doing exchanges of old chips for the new ones? just curious. its been a while since ive been in this forum.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

dudeman08 said:


> are they doing exchanges of old chips for the new ones? just curious. its been a while since ive been in this forum.


 If you come forward with problems, I'm sure C2 will have you send your old chip back to be reflashed.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Kiyokix said:


> Interesting find, I'm very glad to hear the chip is the best out of any of the previous version so far. I wonder why the code is popping right now, definately keep us posted on what's up with that.
> 
> As soon as they get these babies rockin like they're supposed to, I'll buy a new one so quickly. For now I'm using the TT chip I bought a couple weeks back after removing my chip. No problems at all so far, good power, good response, etc..
> 
> ...


 yeah cant seem to clear the code...it pops up a few seconds after its cleared everytime. no different driving characteristics since code popped. the idle is much much smoother than before with the 4th revision chip with bad flash/no idle adjust....but part of that is the bfi .5 mount up front and the stealth mount in the rear that i am running most likely...it was just a bad idle before in general...up and down...but driving the car was quite good...didnt seem as jerky as this chip and drove hard with nice power. i'm not sure if the chip negates the vagcom idle adjustment...but i think i'd like to try one final chip withOUT idle raised and do it myself via vagcom and see if any differences etc. if i can get my little netbook setup this week and get vagcom on it i will try adjust idle with the current chip...but not sure i will have time. 



Kiyokix said:


> I happened to check out the BFI site today and noticed....they're selling the chips like V has (no more carrier), and they've also dropped the price down to $149.99
> 
> Things are getting more and more intersting indeed.
> 
> Kei


 nice find and thanks for reporting!!! 



Hurt said:


> Yes, I noticed that a week or so ago. :thumbup:


 nice find and thanks for not telling anyone!!  



dudeman08 said:


> are they doing exchanges of old chips for the new ones? just curious. its been a while since ive been in this forum.





Hurt said:


> If you come forward with problems, I'm sure C2 will have you send your old chip back to be reflashed.


 i'm not certain if you can reflash these chips or not but regardless if you are having issues with your car running and have checked all the cars possible issues and diagnosed it as the chip after reading this thread then i would recommend you email/get in touch with JOE @ BFI....i would not advise you speak with C2 about these issues. Joe has been great and i think things are still getting better with the chips...very close now. if it meets their criteria they will send you a new chip to test or as replacement. post on the POLL we have on vortex as well as post questions/thoughts on this thread.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

chip test update--- 
well i'm getting a bit of rev rise and its still jerky at low rpms...was driving around for about 30-60 minutes just around the city the other day and parking......i am thinking i wanna try one more chip withOUT the idle adjustment to see if that helps as the last chip albeit with issues didnt give me a CEL and didnt seem as rough to DRIVE although it has its own idle problems. then i can try to setup vagcom finally and adjust my idle per the cabrio mk3.5 blocks and hope that things will be taken care of....or see if they can change the idle adaption coding in the chip itself.....i dont have any vagcom readouts to back my theory up but seems consistent with the back-to-back street tests honestly.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> chip test update---
> well i'm getting a bit of rev rise and its still jerky at low rpms...was driving around for about 30-60 minutes just around the city the other day and parking......i am thinking i wanna try one more chip withOUT the idle adjustment to see if that helps as the last chip albeit with issues didnt give me a CEL and didnt seem as rough to DRIVE although it has its own idle problems. then i can try to setup vagcom finally and adjust my idle per the cabrio mk3.5 blocks and hope that things will be taken care of....or see if they can change the idle adaption coding in the chip itself.....i dont have any vagcom readouts to back my theory up but seems consistent with the back-to-back street tests honestly.


 Why do you even adjust the idle? It doesn't need it. 800-850RPM is fine for a 276* cam in my car. :sly:


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Hurt said:


> Why do you even adjust the idle? It doesn't need it. 800-850RPM is fine for a 276* cam in my car. :sly:


 Well it was a standard feature of the stage 2 cam chip....i want to try adjusting idle (lower) w vagcom to see if it responds regardless of chip coding...and/or just get a chip without idle adjustment. I like the raised idle initially (honestly) because with the .5 front and stealth rear poly motor mounts i was getting some decent vibration on the dash and extra noise even w stock engine head...you could literally see the hood shaking. The lopey-er idle didnt scare or bother me. Do you have any poly motor mounts? Whats been done to your car? I thought you had an automatic w a 270 cam??


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Hurt -- i see you have a couple cars in your sig actually....so that 96 mkiii was the wife's and is now sold? what mods done to the Jetta?? you have 276 cam on it? did you run a bfi chip on it ever? and where in CT are ya?


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> Hurt -- i see you have a couple cars in your sig actually....so that 96 mkiii was the wife's and is now sold? what mods done to the Jetta?? you have 276 cam on it? did you run a bfi chip on it ever? and where in CT are ya?


 My wife daily'd a 96 Golf for the longest time before I bought her a new GTI. Automatic, 270* autotech kit, exhaust, Injen intake, TT chip, etc. That car originally had a 260* autotech cam, but I got a good deal on the 270* kit. I live in Central CT, but I own a house in LongMeadow MA, and a triple-decker in Boston where I grew up. 

My Jetta GT has quite a bit of modifications done to it. 

Right now I'm running a TT chip. I had a C2, but it was really getting out of hand. The rev hang is common amongst cam file chips in my experience, but the C2 was certainly the worst for me. It bucked, the throttle response was absolute crap.. I just couldn't deal with it. But with the TT chip, it feels like there's a power restriction somewhere. I wish C2 would squash the problems so I could buy a new tune. My VR6's C2 chip is 100% fine. Bah.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

PMed ya Hurt (actually twice) 

hoping to hear back from BFI about one final chip test...


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> PMed ya Hurt (actually twice)
> 
> hoping to hear back from BFI about one final chip test...


 Got em. :thumbup: 

Does BFI just keep sending you the new chips as a lab-mouse, in a sense? I'd be interested in testing their newer cam chips, but I don't want to waste money for a faulty chip.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Hurt said:


> Got em. :thumbup:
> 
> Does BFI just keep sending you the new chips as a lab-mouse, in a sense? I'd be interested in testing their newer cam chips, but I don't want to waste money for a faulty chip.


 yes i'm a lab mouse. gotta pay to play.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

so i've been going over my build and i am wondering how much my ported MKIII intake mani could "not be helping" this chip...i did NOT get a code with the previous chip that did NOT have the adjusted idle...sooo i am thinking it's still the chip but i am curious what some of ya (more mechanically/computer experienced) think..? 

i'm really hoping to test out 1 final chip for C2/BFI (same revision but minus idle adjust)...i didnt hear back from BFI today but Joe has been chatting with C2 about what more they can do. if this next and final chip doesnt fix everything then i am going to my plan B.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

new (non-adjusted idle) chip on it's way! no word from C2 yet through BFI if anything more we can do/where to go after this. 

i might try and get this netbook setup dual boot and then run vagcom and get familiar with idle adapt/adjust first i think....i've been sitting on it for months now just too busy with other things.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Vic, I highly doubt your manifold has any effect on the chip. Heck, it's already been proven that a ported MKIII manifold does almost nothing to flow/power, so I would scratch that off your list.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

911_fan said:


> Vic, I highly doubt your manifold has any effect on the chip. Heck, it's already been proven that a ported MKIII manifold does almost nothing to flow/power, so I would scratch that off your list.


well i was talking mostly about the idle based on the ported mkiii intake...and the chips adjusted idle compatibility as well. i thought if the ported mkiii intake affects idle (leaning fuel?) and the chip already has idle issues this would exacerbate them.

the old thread you and Prof315 made about the intakes he stated he had some idle issues/running lean w the ported mkiii intake. and you both said that the torque/power increase was beneficial with the ported mkiii intake. regardless i got it with my head porting for basically nothing so i put it on. i am still hoping to develop a better bolt-on mkiv intake mani ported/flowed setup this summer.



Prof315 said:


> I did notice that the car accelerates MUCH quicker up to 4000rpm with the ported mk3 intake and goes almost stalling lean at idle so on the street I think the ported intake will be a lot more fun.
> If I had to choose ported or unported mk3 right now I'd have to say ported. The acceleration from off idle to around 4000 is very very nice. It pulls as well as the others I've done.
> I'd love to leave things alone but right now with the ported mk3 intake on and the same tune as the unported mk3 the car barely idles. So i'll at least retune the idle and off idle areas in my fuel map.
> I wish I had access to a steady state dyno so I could see the difference between the unported and ported mk3 manifolds at off idle to 3000 cause the car feels different at that range (actually up to 4000). It's really tough to get a good pull on a dynojet below 3000 with a low hp motor (under 200whp)





911_fan said:


> The horsepower line is very decieving because the graph is so small, but the lower torque comparison tells the tale. The MKIII ported is VERY beneficial for low end grunt. Impressive.


*edit--realizing that Prof's car was running MS and mine is stock ECU (variable w/ MAF) i could see how my idle shouldnt be as affected but i thought this intake could be a factor nonetheless. just a thought. i am anxious to test the chip without idle adjustment and still think these are chip issues...just trying to run through everything and be consistent.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I think you are confusing the MKIII and mkiv results. It was the ported mkiv mani that had the big gains up top. The ported MKIII mani had barely 2ft/lbs mid-rpm. Porting the MKIII mani is close to pointless.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Those posts were all before the mkiv was tested, which obviously had significantly more gains. I have the ported installed just in the meantime its not my final...i'll do a custom mkiv like i said or a usrt lri in the end. 

I was just pointing it out for the possible idle issues/CEL. Doesnt help i dont have vagcom setup yet or a wideband. I'm not keepin the ported mkiii intake or saying its awesome...it is definitely better on the low end vs stock.


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## brianalexander (Jun 27, 2009)

I've got a 97 2.0 with a ported head, 270 cam, obx header and bfi stage 2 cam chip and experiencing the same issues. No cel's but rev hangs back to idle and it is much more drastic with the AC on. I received my chip early November, so probably an early variation. Just wanted let you folks know you are not alone! Patrick where in la are you?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Hey guys. I just got my car back from being inspected. It is still running great! There is some rev hang and high idle when the car is cold but so far it is going away once the car gets warm. The power is good. The exhaust gurgle on deceleration that I like is back as well. It never did this with the C2 in the old ECU.

Is anyone having these problems with an Automatic car? 

Once again, All I Changed was the ECU to a 96 Auto version.

It is throwing a code for the missing trans but still no CEL.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

macanic21 said:


> Hey guys. I just got my car back from being inspected. It is still running great! There is some rev hang and high idle when the car is cold but so far it is going away once the car gets warm. The power is good. The exhaust gurgle on deceleration that I like is back as well. It never did this with the C2 in the old ECU.
> 
> Is anyone having these problems with an Automatic car?
> 
> ...


I had issues with a automatic car. Similar to the standards.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

I decided to buy a Race file Cam chip. (272). I have a fully built ABA. I am experiencing rev hang (around 2k rpm), it runs rich to the point of I can smell it, it bucks at lower than 2k, stalls (idle is about 850) - never had a problem before, but, it has more power than my TT chip, but it isn't worth all these problems! I'm giving it a week. I've already driven a total of 150 miles on it. Nothing is getting better. Pretty dissapointed. I'm definitely going with the BBM kit now. Already ordered it. 250whp here I come.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm beginning to have some issues like I did before. The car is now hanging at 2k and bucking. It's still not bad enough for me to take the chip out yet. It is still much better and is coming back slower than with my old computer. I also now have a CEL, I'll have to do a scan when I get a chance to find out why.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Well i got a p0172 bank 1 rich code aand still have idle adapt code...the bucking at low rpm was terrible and the rev rise was apparent even though not as bad as it once was in previous chips. I cleared everything and put another chip in. I have one more to test (it doesnt have idle raised and will try to use vagcom on) in a few weeks. I will keep you all posted but not looking good.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

Mine had the common problems at first. I purchased a 272* Race File cam chip and talked to C2 so they could possibly take my added compression into consideration. They did.. (so they claim). I drove it for about 2 weeks with problems. Then.. bam. no more CEL, no more bucking, no more 1.5k idle, (it's set at 850). It pulls to the limiter strong. No blank spots. I am really happy with it, but I am going FI this weekend (lysholm)

A friend of mine has a 1995 Cabrio 2.0 running on OBD2 with:
OBD1 head/block
EuroSport intake
268* cam
OBX or Raceland header (I can't remember)
TT 2.25" exhaust w/flowmaster
No cat
C2 268* chip

He isn't experiencing any problems at all, either. 
Another friend has a OBD2 Golf 2.0 with:
260* TT cam
INJEN intake
2.5" magnaflow catback
9a Trans
C2 260* cam file

...Again, no problems.

But, another pal has a 1998 Jetta GT with:
High flow panel filter
2.5" Neuspeed catback
Autotech's 270* cam kit with titanium retainers and HD springs
TT 2.5" SS DP mated to a MK4 manifold
C2 270* file

...and it's running like crap. It's only been a week since he changed his chip, though, so we'll see.

I guess the software is hit or miss.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

so weird...it shouldnt be hit or miss....i wish we could all go meet up and plug in and compare files and logs etc....will you ask C2 what they changed to compensate for your compression? 




Hurt said:


> ...


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> so weird...it shouldnt be hit or miss....i wish we could all go meet up and plug in and compare files and logs etc....will you ask C2 what they changed to compensate for your compression?


I will ask, but I really doubt they did anything.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

Hurt said:


> I will ask, but I really doubt they did anything.


I agree but worth asking.

Its gotta be a hardware/incompatibility thing unless faulty chip in someway. There has to be some consistency...some logic...I would hope anyway. 

Why does your cam stg 2 race chip idle at 850 now?? The sudden everything ok just popped up?? Can you give us more details? You didnt have to clear the codes? Were you driving or allowing throttle (tps) to adapt. 

Ps---excited to see and hear the s/c!!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

The Big V said:


> The sudden everything ok just popped up?? Can you give us more details?


I believe I covered this near the beginning of this thread...It's called adaptation. And I know you and I discussed this on a personal level a few months ago when you were popping in chips and immediately commenting on how things didn't change. At the bare minimum, it takes 7 legit cold-starts to adapt. And concerning the AC, you need to baby the throttle a few times for it to learn it's load setting. I literally would do all my around-town driving with the AC on so I could use both feet for the brake and gas when coming to stops. Didn't take long to adapt.

On a side note, I'm sure a lot of people who also experience these issues have been running the tune for an extended amount of time; plenty of time for the ECU to fully adapt. And to them I can only lean towards equipment/sensor faults. I myself had serious bucking issues when I put my first PEM in. Car ran just fine on the stock AND TT tune. Popped this sucker in and watched my AFR go dead lean on light throttle tip-in and buck like crazy. Complained to BFI and they suggested I change the MAF. Lo-and-behold, that DID fix it. Car ran superb after that. So many sensors feeding critical input to the ECU, and we are all well aware by now how...sensitive...these tunes are. I dunno....I read Hurt's post and just nodded my head...because that's exactly how it always worked out for me whenever I swapped chips or disconnected the battery and reset the ECU.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i hear ya Trav....but i only popped that one chip out because it ran horrrrribly and my rpms were up and down and it just kept stalling on me....it was an unusual situation...and i put the oem chip in to see if that was just normal how a chip is (before adapting) but it isn't...apparently BFI/C2 said that had some "bad burns," as they phrased it, that week and some issue with the burning equipment. every other chip i have tested has been for several weeks. none of the chips have been getting better though or adapting (to any normal settings)...only worse with CELs and whathaveyou that we have all discussed.

i will have to look further into my equip and sensors...if the chip is that sensitive then i still think the ported intake mani could be the cause of the idle adapt CEL....and i will look into my MAF i suppose if that is what cured your bucking at lower rpm....i still think its a programming issue and not an equipment/sensor issue...or an incompatibility with program vs equip type thing.

i dont have enough time nor proper equip to do this much longer...wish their shop was down the street.


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## brianalexander (Jun 27, 2009)

I was experiencing rev hangs from my first BFI chip I received around early November. I've received 2 replacement chips since from BFI and they both wouldn't start my car. It'd crank, not start. If it put the first chip from BFI i received as well as my stock chip in. It starts right up. Anyone else had this issue?

I'm at a loss.


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## b5blazing (Apr 30, 2011)

I run a bfi Stg 2 272 cam file i actually got it with a motor set up from another member. 
I have rev hang like crazy. Not to much bucking. 
Sometimes it sounds like a Honda with bad idle air control 2k than super cammy 900k than 2100k 
Although when I run 100 octane race fuel it goes away. 
****ing retarded. I also get check engine for both 02s but there is no second one and the first is brand new. 

I just ordered a Autothority chip non cam specific race file.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

havent had any time whatsoever for VW stuff lately...my car is due for inspection soon and i need to figure out this chip issue still. 

as far as i know C2/BFI does NOT have specific cam files....its either stg 1 cam or stg 2...is there any difference between these chips other than the idle adjustment even..? 

*Hurt* -- so you adjusted idle back down to 850rpm with vagcom from the adjusted idle on the chip (1050rpm i believe)????? and who did you speak to at C2 (changed program for compression etc??)?? thanks






Hurt said:


> Mine had the common problems at first. I purchased a 272* Race File cam chip and talked to C2 so they could possibly take my added compression into consideration. They did.. (so they claim). I drove it for about 2 weeks with problems. Then.. bam. no more CEL, no more bucking, no more 1.5k idle, (it's set at 850). It pulls to the limiter strong. No blank spots. I am really happy with it, but I am going FI this weekend (lysholm)
> 
> A friend of mine has a 1995 Cabrio 2.0 running on OBD2 with:
> OBD1 head/block
> ...


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

The Big V said:


> as far as i know C2/BFI does NOT have specific cam files....its either stg 1 cam or stg 2...is there any difference between these chips other than the idle adjustment even..?
> 
> *Hurt* -- so you adjusted idle back down to 850rpm with vagcom from the adjusted idle on the chip (1050rpm i believe)????? and who did you speak to at C2 (changed program for compression etc??)?? thanks


 I'm pretty sure the stage 2 C2 chip doesn't have a secondary o2 delete and a non-cat CEL option. The stage 1 doesn't. I don't know about the cam file difference, I think a bump and idle and some hotter timing, more fuel, I'm not sure. 

911_fan knows a lot about these C2 chips. 

My idle was set down to 850 RPM or so. It was done by a friend of mine, I am not too good at adjusting idle speed. 

I asked C2 about the compression, and they basically said "What? we don't do that.. it never happened".. I wish I saved the conversation. 

my Daily ran great until I went to FI.


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## b5blazing (Apr 30, 2011)

i just switched back to my bfi stg2 272 cam file yesterday. did ecu relearn and car feels better smoother faster than it did last time i had it installed. 
no rev hang this time either, but the car feels great. 
i had switched off the bfi to an autothority chip(non cam file) and its a night and day diffrence. 
im just hoping the rev hang doesnt come back. 
im going to advance cam timing +3or4 deg and try for a little extra torque. 

but im running obd 1 german head ti retainers, lw lifters , pacesetters headers, racecraft sri, euro tdi trans with 3.97 gears, eurospec lwfw with a 6 puck kevlar, ac & ps deleted, lw underdrive kit, bfi stg 2 272 cam file. pic of bay 

im setting up second head, decked more extensive p&p and hd valve set up


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

I'm running my C2 stage 2 race/cam file on my completely stock ABA swap mk2. 

Idle is good. 
Little rev-hang, but it's to be expected until it adapts I guess. 

I noticed a pretty reasonable gain over the stock chip.. and this motor is 100% stock. Better midrange, and easier cruising. :thumbup:


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Very interesting Hurt...

In other news I decided to do the last thing I could think of to get my full power back. I mentioned already that I've tried 2 different sets of injectors (my originals, and a set I picked up from someone during trouble shooting).

Well I knew that one of the newer ones had a lil crack in the pintle cap, so I figured might as well either buy a new set or get 'em all serviced. I found a shop down the street that did them for $24ea which is good compared to $37 for new injectors from Rock Auto ($10 core charge makes them $27 in the end...but shipping time lol).

Anyway I've been running my TT chip for months now, but after 100 miles or so I put the BFI/C2 back in with the newly refreshed injectors. Car runs like a beast, hasn't stalled (yet), the rev hang isn't as bad (still there but more around the 1-1.5k range), the hesitation isn't nearly as bad. In general the car runs pretty damn good.

The power is absolutely there, and it's evident even though I'm running a heavier wheel/tire setup (~33-34lbs) in comparison to the stock setup I had when I originally got the chip. I'm going to get new wheels fairly soon that will be lighter than both setups so that will be a very very nice boost in accelaration.

It's only been 2.5days since I installed the chip again so we'll see what happens in a weeks time of course.

I do wonder now though if my timing is a smidge off because with the injectors running perfectly now...the car starts TOO fast. It runs great, no weird quirks, power all around (even feel it still accelerating okay at 6k to 6200rpm), feels positively delicious at 3k rpm in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear.

One of these days when I won't die from sweating too much I'll get in there, and see what's up with the timing. It can't be off very far at all (if it is in the first place), but I wanna make sure anyway. I'm also still thinking pretty hard about picking up a lightweight (non underdriven) crank pulley, so I'd be down there anyway.

I'm waiting to see if the rich code comes back (never happened stock or with the TT chip....ever), so I'll let you guys know ASAP if it does come back on, which will make me take the chip back out all over again. 

The MAF numbers are interesting between the 3 chips (stock, TT, C2). The C2 chip yields the lowest g/s numbers regardless of temps it seems, and the TT chip yields the highest numbers overall. The C2 doesn't yield 'low' numbers, but they are 1-2g/s lower than the stock, and 2-3g/s lower than the TT.

Kei

(mods refresher: chip, header, test pipe (new cat soon), tt dynomax exhaust)


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

Kiyokix said:


> *waiting to see if the rich code comes back *(never happened stock or with the TT chip....ever), so I'll let you guys know ASAP if it does come back on, which will make me take the chip back out all over again...


Well that was quick, code came back yesterday, and looking at the lambda numbers while idling just after getting home...it shows -16.4% (when I was looking so it could have been higher at some point).

Back in the box it goes, and I'll install the TT chip again which like I said gave me none of these problems. I'll be truly happy when/if this stuff is ever figured out because I would LOVE to just put in one of these chips, and have that power they give without the side effects/problems. I AM still using the very first revision of the chip from 2010, so that could be different from what some of you guys like V are using.

It's fairly cheap, but I don't wanna buy another one to see if the new non castle style does the trick...just afraid it won't do anything for me. Of course I'm still watching the thread like a hawk to see all the developments that come out of it.

I'm kinda curious on the running a cam spec chip on a non cam car like Hurt is doing...wonder what would happen on my car with that. I mean I AM planning to add a 270 cam to my car at some point, so technically the money wouldn't be wasted lol.

*Hurt...you got any codes?* (or are you running different management so you can't see those anymore)

Kei


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Kiyokix said:


> I'm kinda curious on the running a cam spec chip on a non cam car like Hurt is doing...wonder what would happen on my car with that.


absolutely nothing.


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

Kiyokix said:


> *Hurt...you got any codes?* (or are you running different management so you can't see those anymore)
> 
> Kei


No, no CEL's for me. Car is different now, has a 268/260 cam, exhaust, MK4 manifolds, etc. Runs good, doesn't buck or stall. Occasionally it'll go from the 850 idle and hang at around 1,000.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

911_fan said:


> absolutely nothing.


lol, that's what I figure but my mind is in a million places trying to figure this thing out. I put the TT chip back in the car this afternoon, and of course everything runs fine. I don't know if I can keep it in there though because that extra power from the other chip is intoxicating lol.

I really do want to find out what is the thing that causes the issues (at least the rich code), so I can just run that chip. The bucking/hesitation really isn't a problem at this time (at least not in those few days), the power is good, but I don't know why the rich code (and value) shows up on that chip and no other so far...

Any ideas Trav you wanna throw at me off the top of your head?

Kei


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

Kiyokix said:


> Well that was quick, code came back yesterday, and looking at the lambda numbers while idling just after getting home...it shows -16.4% (when I was looking so it could have been higher at some point).
> 
> Back in the box it goes, and I'll install the TT chip again which like I said gave me none of these problems. I'll be truly happy when/if this stuff is ever figured out because I would LOVE to just put in one of these chips, and have that power they give without the side effects/problems. I AM still using the very first revision of the chip from 2010, so that could be different from what some of you guys like V are using.
> 
> ...


You're still using the first revision? You should talk to C2 and see if they'll upgrade your software. I had the first revision and the car ran like poop. I banned myself from using the c2 chips until about 1+1/2 months ago, then the problems pretty much stopped when I got a new race file cam chip.. I was running it on a "built" motor, too. 135whp with a 02A.


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

I'm still thinking about getting a new revision, but my trust isn't terribly high of course due to this thread + my own issues so far. Once I get a few bucks I don't care about spending (I'm buying other things for the car right now) I'll end up trying out a new model or just buy one from United Motorsport.

Interesting fact, I mentioned the strange super quick starting characteristic the car has after doing the injectors. I swapped out to the TT chip again, and it doesn't do that, just starts like normal. Put the C2 back in, and the car does the super fast startup thing. It didn't change or return to normal after multiple days/miles (around 200-250), and once I put the TT chip back in the car...normal starting all day.

Just thought I'd mention that before I forgot.

Kei


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

Kiyokix said:


> I'm still thinking about getting a new revision, but my trust isn't terribly high of course due to this thread + my own issues so far. Once I get a few bucks I don't care about spending (I'm buying other things for the car right now) I'll end up trying out a new model or just buy one from United Motorsport.
> 
> Interesting fact, I mentioned the strange super quick starting characteristic the car has after doing the injectors. I swapped out to the TT chip again, and it doesn't do that, just starts like normal. Put the C2 back in, and the car does the super fast startup thing. It didn't change or return to normal after multiple days/miles (around 200-250), and once I put the TT chip back in the car...normal starting all day.
> 
> ...


UM software is the same as C2. Personally I don't trust UM because they claim you'll gain 15whp using their software on a bone stock ABA.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

thought i would keep adding to this thread....havent had much time lately but this is the latest-- 

installed the last BFI/C2 chip....this is a stage 2 chip WITHOUT idle adjustment. ran really nice for first few days. no bucking...rough 850 idle though...just too much vibration with a 276 and hybrid poly mount setup. drove around for a week and even went and got my inspection and passed with no CEL!!! literally ten minutes after my inspection i got a CEL and the car started running even more rough. took it to our garage and scanned it and got a rich code along with the idle adapt 1582 nonsense. car is running too rough and smells fuelly now...BUT THERE IS NO BUCKING AT ALL...SMOOOOTH AS CAN BE WHILE DRIVING......still think gonna switch it back to the previous stage 2 chip with the idle adjustment as the roughness is annoying. 

not sure at this point what to do. might go with my last resort of another tuner chip.


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

*UPDATE 
* 
I've had rev hang issues since the BFI stg2 chip swap, but recently I did an oil change to synthetic Liqui-Moly oil (_I don't think it was the oil though that corrected it..._) 

*I also replaced my PCV VALVE, and the rev hang is gone!* 

so, if yr still having issues with rev hang, and yr PCV is old as ****e as mine was, try this out! 
:thumbup::beer::thumbup:


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

*disconnect and report*

I noticed that this sensor was disconnected since I did my PCV, and the rev hang is relatively "cured", I encourage others to disconnect what I assume to be a manifold pressure sensor, and see how it runs... it might be the secret "cure" to the rev hang issue.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

That is an IAT sensor. But the rev hang/idle/rich issues seem to be more prevalent when it's colder outside.


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

Fast VW said:


> That is an IAT sensor. But the rev hang/idle/rich issues seem to be more prevalent when it's colder outside.


yeh, I checked my bentley when i got home, the intake air temperture sensor... Well since adding the bfi chip I've had the rev hang issue, with that sensor unplugged it doesn't rev hang and my MPG has been better too.. which makes Mr. Vacuumnoise much more


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

glad you have found your "cure" vacuumnoise....i am still trying to figure this out.

so far i loosened my Tbelt on the tensioner a tiny bit (started making some noise...idle now improved)....added a USRT motorsport 020 shift linkage setup and put new oem VW gear oil G 060 726 A2 in....decoded SAI via VAGCOM, set idle to 1000rpm via VAGCOM (think i had to set it BEYOND the recommended numbers at something like 138??? i had to use the Cabrio mk3.5 technique a few posts down off of this post - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4590624-TECH-Adjusting-idle-speed-for-the-ABA ), did a VAGCOM throttle body adaption. since recoding to get rid of SAI the car seems to have the rev hang/rev rise issue returning. other than that i still get the p1742 code or whatever for running RICH. i have not checked plugs in a while but i have put in freshly cleaned/flowed set of used fuel injectors. i need to get a wideband gauge to really see some #'s between cold and warmup and idle and WOT. after a long long (6hr drive) trip the CEL actually disappeared at one point and then before i could check the system while driving around for 30 minutes looking to park the car it came back. car smells a bit fuelly and a bit of smoke occasionally on startup leads me to believe it actually is running a tad rich.

that is all i randomly have to report at this time. i still might go back to an older version of the chip and see if that has any positive effect...its been over 2 months on this latest chip so far.

thanks for keeping this thread alive with updates...





The Big V said:


> thought i would keep adding to this thread....havent had much time lately but this is the latest--
> 
> installed the last BFI/C2 chip....this is a stage 2 chip WITHOUT idle adjustment. ran really nice for first few days. no bucking...rough 850 idle though...just too much vibration with a 276 and hybrid poly mount setup. drove around for a week and even went and got my inspection and passed with no CEL!!! literally ten minutes after my inspection i got a CEL and the car started running even more rough. took it to our garage and scanned it and got a rich code along with the idle adapt 1582 nonsense. car is running too rough and smells fuelly now...BUT THERE IS NO BUCKING AT ALL...SMOOOOTH AS CAN BE WHILE DRIVING......still think gonna switch it back to the previous stage 2 chip with the idle adjustment as the roughness is annoying.
> 
> not sure at this point what to do. might go with my last resort of another tuner chip.


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

The Big V said:


> glad you have found your "cure" vacuumnoise....i am still trying to figure this out.
> 
> so far i loosened my Tbelt on the tensioner a tiny bit (started making some noise...idle now improved)....added a USRT motorsport 020 shift linkage setup and put new oem VW gear oil G 060 726 A2 in....decoded SAI via VAGCOM, set idle to 1000rpm via VAGCOM (think i had to set it BEYOND the recommended numbers at something like 138??? i had to use the Cabrio mk3.5 technique a few posts down off of this post - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4590624-TECH-Adjusting-idle-speed-for-the-ABA ), did a VAGCOM throttle body adaption. since recoding to get rid of SAI the car seems to have the rev hang/rev rise issue returning. other than that i still get the p1742 code or whatever for running RICH. i have not checked plugs in a while but i have put in freshly cleaned/flowed set of used fuel injectors. i need to get a wideband gauge to really see some #'s between cold and warmup and idle and WOT. after a long long (6hr drive) trip the CEL actually disappeared at one point and then before i could check the system while driving around for 30 minutes looking to park the car it came back. car smells a bit fuelly and a bit of smoke occasionally on startup leads me to believe it actually is running a tad rich.
> 
> ...


headaches... try unplugging yr IAT

I've had a CEL since I installled the chip but to be honest I put a Hello Kitty sticker over it and called it a day... it pulls good, mid 7s 0-60 for an ABA with a 260 cam is good in my book.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

vacuumnoise said:


> headaches... try unplugging yr IAT
> 
> I've had a CEL since I installled the chip but to be honest I put a Hello Kitty sticker over it and called it a day... it pulls good, mid 7s 0-60 for an ABA with a 260 cam is good in my book.


what are your CEL codes???

if you unplug the IAT doesnt the car simply run in cold start mode and just run richer??? i don't think this is the solution i am looking for. i am trying to naturally get everything working properly to have no CEL codes. 

has anyone tried running a pre-2003 1.8t mkiv IAT w these chips???? (newer open-element design vs our closed element and possibly heat soaked versions)...


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

The Big V said:


> what are your CEL codes???
> 
> if you unplug the IAT doesnt the car simply run in cold start mode and just run richer??? i don't think this is the solution i am looking for. i am trying to naturally get everything working properly to have no CEL codes.
> 
> has anyone tried running a pre-2003 1.8t mkiv IAT w these chips???? (newer open-element design vs our closed element and possibly heat soaked versions)...



even with the IAT plugged in, I think I was running a code like "too rich" or something but I havent checked for awhile.. If the IAT unplugged makes it run richer, Im not feeling any negatives from it; as I said the car pullss good and gas mileage is 23-30mpg depending on driving style of course.

I hear you though about wanting it to have no CEL's etc.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

check the codes now...just curious.

i also wonder if the 1.8t pre-2003 mkiv IAT is somewhat common upgrade...any of you n/a ABA guys do this??




vacuumnoise said:


> even with the IAT plugged in, I think I was running a code like "too rich" or something but I havent checked for awhile.. If the IAT unplugged makes it run richer, Im not feeling any negatives from it; as I said the car pullss good and gas mileage is 23-30mpg depending on driving style of course.
> 
> I hear you though about wanting it to have no CEL's etc.


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

yeh gotta grab the obd2 scanner

never heard of an IAT upgrade for the ABA, the VR6 benefits tho from that


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## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

I've been too busy to mess with this for a while now, but you guys need to figure it out quick so I can benefit from it. 

I really wanna get a newer version of these (still have my original one from 2010 sitting in a box in the trunk), plug it in, smile, and go!

I have wondered for a while now if the air temperature had something to do with it just from my own experience, but I've never put any real time into looking at that. I've been running my TT chip for a while now without issues (though it's certainly not as powerful).

Of course I don't have any rich codes or anything like that with the chip, but I put in the 'ol Castle chip a couple months ago and the rich code still shows it's head pretty quickly. 

Keep at it guys, wish I had more time to help out. Again my list of stuff done is as follows... (what I remember anyway)

PCV
Injectors (professionally serviced)
Fuel pump
Filters (all)
Plugs
Wires
Coil
O2 sensors
MAF
FPR
TB Adapt (vagcom)
Coolant sensors
Oil sensors
Gaskets (intake, exhaust, etc.)
Vacuum lines
.......crap I can't remember it all, but it's A LOT of searching for an issue that doesn't seem to exist

Kei


(the car runs just fine with any other chip in there, but there MUST be SOMETHING!!!)


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

In my car the only time I had issues with the rev hang and flakey idle was when the out side temperature was below 60 degrees. So I unplugged the IAT sensor and all of my issues went away. 

When the IAT sensor is unplugged the ECU uses a default constant temperature and then makes all "corrections" according to the default temperature. I do not recall what temp the ECU uses but it is in the bentley manual. If I have time later I will look it up and post that temp.

My guess is that when the outside temp gets lower, the ECU is making incorrect "corrections" to the fueling based upon the C2/BFI chip commands. But when the IAT sensor is unplugged it is making corrections based upon the higher "default" temp.

Before anyone says it, I did replace the IAT sensor with brand new one and it made no difference. The only issue I have with the IAT sensor unpluged is a CEL.

C2/BFI - Please fix the correction factor in the chip programming for lower air temps.


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

Fast VW said:


> In my car the only time I had issues with the rev hang and flakey idle was when the out side temperature was below 60 degrees. So I unplugged the IAT sensor and all of my issues went away.
> 
> When the IAT sensor is unplugged the ECU uses a default constant temperature and then makes all "corrections" according to the default temperature. I do not recall what temp the ECU uses but it is in the bentley manual. If I have time later I will look it up and post that temp.
> 
> ...


yeh the IAT unplug works for me too, I already had a CEL with it plugged in, so thats no big deal for me... 

I'd rather not have constant rev hang...


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

just checked the bentley, with the IAT unplugged "the ECU will simulate a fixed signal based on an engine temperature of approx. 68*F (20*C)."

:thumbup:


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## vacuumnoise (Jun 1, 2009)

also here are the code/s I had since i installed the BFI stg2 chip 

OBD II Code P0172 and P0175
Fuel System Too Rich (Bank 1 or 2)

Our emissions expert has put together the following information about the P0172 and P0175 fault code. We have also included diagnostic procedures you can take to your repair shop if the mechanic is having difficulty analyzing the code.

OBD II Fault Code

* OBD II P0172
* OBD II P0175

Fault Code Definition

* OBD II P0172 Fuel System Too Rich (Bank 1)
* OBD II P0175 Fuel System Too Rich (Bank 2)


not sure if it was both, or one of them, I just rememed "data bank rich"....

more info here, a lot of good info actually: http://repairpal.com/OBD-II-Code-P0172-and-P0175


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

Two points of interest:

One of my cars is using C2's stage 1 FI software and has no issues at all.

The car using the NA software has the idle and running rich issues but only when it get's colder outside and the engine is not fully warmed up. Also these issues are only present when the motor is going from a higher load to a lighter load. In my case when going from D to P or N. It seems for others it is when the clutch is pushed.

I still think this is a fueling issue like I did when this post started but I think it is a fuel map when IAT are low and engine load is light. 

But what do I know.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

bumping this because its still not resolved. i have a new plan for resolution and hopefully this summer will update again when i get time.


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## b5blazing (Apr 30, 2011)

The Big V said:


> bumping this because its still not resolved. i have a new plan for resolution and hopefully this summer will update again when i get time.


Oh yeah I had kinda given up on the c2 chip. I need a custom burn now anyway for current set up


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## 99quaddoor (Aug 7, 2012)

Has this issue been resolved? I just received my stage 2 c2 chip


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

i do not think it has been resolved...


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

The Big V said:


> i do not think it has been resolved...


People still use C2's tunes? They're notorious for rev hang and issues.
I had my BFI chip stage I which is supposed to be emissions compliant, turns out it sends the OBDII reader a "not ready" code and it fails instantly. 
They said it was the "secondary o2 sensor".. told me if it was deleted with the stage II, it wouldn't be a problem.
Not to mention the damn rev hang. Sooooo annoying, and it's a waste of gas.
Low and behold, it didn't help a bit, the car still failed because of "secondary o2 sensor not ready". Then I said screw an 8v, and went 16v.. haven't looked back since..


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## 99quaddoor (Aug 7, 2012)

Hmm I've still got a couple weeks before I'll have mine running but I guess I'll just have to see what happens


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## dailygolfer (Mar 16, 2013)

I suppose we never found an issue for this? I have a United Motorsports chip install with all of the aforementioned symptoms and I just wanna get rid of this terrible rev hang... I do know that the guy who writes the code for UM is the same guy that wrote the code for the old BFI chips that originally had this issue.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

you chat with Jeff at UM and see if you can get the problem resolved/new tune??




dailygolfer said:


> I suppose we never found an issue for this? I have a United Motorsports chip install with all of the aforementioned symptoms and I just wanna get rid of this terrible rev hang... I do know that the guy who writes the code for UM is the same guy that wrote the code for the old BFI chips that originally had this issue.


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## dailygolfer (Mar 16, 2013)

the chip actually wound up dying. He said that it's because the chip wasn't seated in the ECU correctly, but I was driving on the chip for over a year... He said if anything, he could have me send it back and he'll bench test it.


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