# Pulley question for product developement



## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

My question is are the pulleys the same throughout the model years? As in 05-current MAFless 
2.5's. 

So we have: 
-Tensioner pulley
-Crank pulley
-Water pump pulley
-Alternator pulley
That should be it if Im not mistaken....


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

ideally they should all be done so that they are all balanced, able to witstand up to 8500rpm or 9k without issues


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Well afaik the only one I left out was the ac compressor wheel, which the company doesnt even include in their Vr setup. Basically I have an 08 and also have 3 of the 4 pulleys I listed from a 09 motor. I want to know if I send them to this company I dont get back 4 useless pulleys, if they are different through the years and factory hp changes.


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## pennsydubbin (Mar 3, 2010)

*BGP*


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

In for this! Please make sure they early 06 compatible! 

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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

What company is gonna make you a set of pullies!? I want more info on this cause Id love a lightweight setup like a use to have on my Beetle, not underdrive tho. Just lightweight, stock size preferably.


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

The crank pulley is different between the BGP to the switch to the CBTA.


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

Also, there already is underdriven and lightened crank pulley for the 2.5 from 2 different companies. But you're talking about getting all of them done not just the crank, correct?


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## pennsydubbin (Mar 3, 2010)

yea the crank pulley on the CBTA is different

*CBTA*


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

agreed.. mine is a CBTA


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

_V-Dubber_ said:


> Also, there already is underdriven and lightened crank pulley for the 2.5 from 2 different companies. But you're talking about getting all of them done not just the crank, correct?


Yea all of them. Underdrive is garbage, but yea all pulleys will be billet, even tensioner wheels, all of them, ~9lbs rotating mass savings driving everything like stock.


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## dhenry (Feb 10, 2009)

united motorsports has some for the vr6
maybe they can get some for the 2.5l

idler and tensioner pulleys


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Eh these just look soo much better


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Keep us posted cause I deffinately want a set if its available.


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

Some things you just shouldn't mess with on European cars and I feel this is one of them. Those look like some really tempting pieces of work though.


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

Ok I think this is a really a great idea...

I wonder if they could make up a stepped pulley that we could use to delete our a/c. So basically taking the serpentine belt and running it off the crank. I never use my a/c


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

Anyone got any insight on what the install on something like this would be like? Just pull off the pass side wheel and you're in business?

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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

*@Tyler* I agree. I already have the NST underdriven & lightened crank pulley but I would love to get the rest of them lightened. Reducing drag on the engine is something I would be definitely interested in. I'd be willing to drop a grand to buy an entire set. So....how are we gonna get the ball rolling? Hey Fred, maybe you could give a call around to a couple companies and see who takes the bait. Or maybe *OP*, if you are successful and get a set made, I wonder if you could get that company to make a few more sets. Maybe we could set up a Vortex group buy again? Everyone would have to be willing to shell out a good amount of money (maybe a grand or more) on an unseen and untested product and wait who knows how long to receive them. But.....hey we're used to that kinda stuff on here, right?:laugh:


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

lessthanalex said:


> Anyone got any insight on what the install on something like this would be like? Just pull off the pass side wheel and you're in business?
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk


Not just that, but the inner fender liner. Don't forget that there's torx screws in the fender well as well as screws you need to remove under the car to separate the fender liner from the front airdam because they are joined underneath the car.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

You could delete the A/C if you did an electric water pump. 

I've actually got pullies on the lathe right now, it's been a pain in the ass getting it sorted. I might do rabbit ones as well, and probably tensioner pullies with a flange to stop it from jumping the belt. 

I won't be doing crank pullies though. Not a fan of removing dampers. 

The UM ones probably look good but that product photo is just not up to par.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> You could delete the A/C if you did an electric water pump.
> 
> I've actually got pullies on the lathe right now, it's been a pain in the ass getting it sorted. I might do rabbit ones as well, and probably tensioner pullies with a flange to stop it from jumping the belt.
> 
> ...


Ive used Gruvens on a vr and the change is great. Performance increase but functions like stock. I hate underdrives, the vr had a hard enough time with the water pump  If I am able to send all the pulleys including tensioners, I will not be the only one with a set. They will make a set send them to be tested out, and if all is well, a production piece available for purchase. I will however put them on with the motor out, so yea I dont have the patience to switch them out motor in car.

Its going to be awhile before I can send them, so If any one else wants to contact them and has a full set of extra oem pulleys, feel free to ship them to Gruven and wait for a billet set to come back to you. There are two versions of the motor, so a set of each would be needed to have all years covered.


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## lessthanalex (Oct 12, 2009)

_V-Dubber_ said:


> Not just that, but the inner fender liner. Don't forget that there's torx screws in the fender well as well as screws you need to remove under the car to separate the fender liner from the front airdam because they are joined underneath the car.


 
That's what I meant, just wasn't clear about it. Thanks for filling me in!

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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> You could delete the A/C if you did an electric water pump.
> 
> I've actually got pullies on the lathe right now, it's been a pain in the ass getting it sorted. I might do rabbit ones as well, and probably *tensioner pullies with a flange to stop it from jumping* the belt.
> 
> ...




THANK YOU. Someone who is doing this right. So many junk pullies out there are designed by guys that have never even seen the motor and don't have a clue! 

I would definitely pay the premium for your work pete! I wouldn't buy these from anyone else if you guys made some. Do I smell a group buy?


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Pennsey, send them the pullies off your old engine.


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## pennsydubbin (Mar 3, 2010)

DerekH said:


> Hey Pennsey, send them the pullies off your old engine.


i'm working on it


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

kungfoojesus said:


> THANK YOU. Someone who is doing this right. So many junk pullies out there are designed by guys that have never even seen the motor and don't have a clue!
> 
> I would definitely pay the premium for your work pete! I wouldn't buy these from anyone else if you guys made some. Do I smell a group buy?


Eh Id still go for a set of Gruvens pulleys.


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Im likin where this is going. If we get the word out there about these, maybe some other companies will jump on board and start offering them. Someone deffinately needs to send Gruven some stock pullies tho so we can see what the end result would be.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Yea Ive used the Gruvens before, and saw no negative reactions from deleting the dampener. Saw no added overheating issues from them since they dont underdrive anything. The 30k miles I drove the car with them on saw zero problems whatsoever. If I do get a 08R the first two mods will be crack pipe and their billet pulleys, trust me the rotational mass savings make a difference.


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

They deffinately do, I had a set of Unorthodox Racing pulleys on my 2.0 AEG a couple years back and it made the engine rev much easier and faster. They make some nice pulley sets as well but unfortunately they are mostly underdriven. I cant imagine how quick the 2.5 would rev with a set of lightweight pullies AND a lightened flywheel.


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

well issues w/deleting harmonic dampers aren't going to be present. they're long term issues that are going to take a while to show up in various forms of other damage. i don't rly understand how anyone can say its a non issue unless they blue printed and balanced a motor but be my guest. i'll pass on the damper delete for basically 5hp off the line and little other benefit.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

tay272 said:


> AND a lightened flywheel.


i love the way mine revs...

cant imagine getting this pulleys...!


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

kungfoojesus said:


> well issues w/deleting harmonic dampers aren't going to be present. they're long term issues that are going to take a while to show up in various forms of other damage. i don't rly understand how anyone can say its a non issue unless they blue printed and balanced a motor but be my guest. i'll pass on the damper delete for basically 5hp off the line and little other benefit.


What is the damage that could maybe show up long down the road, when most of us prob. wont even have the car anymore? I always hear people saying I dont want to delete the harmonic damper because of the damage it causes, but I have yet to see proof, or hear of this down the road damage :sly:


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

If you can tell me exactly what damage resonance causes in an engine, you're either the engineer that designed this motor or GOD. I can't answer your question but the fact is, removing a harmonic damper reduces the strength of your crank. Yes, it may reduce little enough to never be an issue but I for one will go with a properly balanced, built, and resonance inhibited crank shaft. I still stand by my opinion that unless a motor is built from bottom end up blue printed and balanced, nobody can know for sure if resonance won't be an issue w/out a damper.

If anyone is wondering what resonance does, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17tqXgvCN0E

Some motors have issues w/them, some don't, some will, some may never know... no real answer on that one. Running 800hp through a stock damper probably doesn't cope w/the problem either. In this sense the OEM unit is a light weight unit lol. So I agree with you, it may or may not matter. I'm just saying there's no way of knowing and its a big risk for little gain to run no damper on a motor that is stiffly bolted into the car, held to the ground w/stiff suspension, and a sticky new clutch n tires. Something has to give at some point and resonance weakens the crank in addition to all this stress of a modified vehicle. For what? 5hp off the line and jack squat by 2nd gear.

I'm not knocking anyone that wants to reduce the strength of their bottom end for essentially no gain, just find it shocking its seldom taken into consideration why that damper is even there to begin with when this topic comes up.

Anyway, more in the spirit of things. I would love to see some options on these items out there. Pete sounds like he already has a good idea of what we actually need. That is all I meant to say. Again, not knocking anyone that wants to lighten their rotating assembly w/these damper replacement parts. On some motors I've replaced dampers to gain CPS or some other function, so I understand its not always the best option but for my 2.5 its staying.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

I've seen road race turbo 4 cyl spit out cranks after only a few sessions with an aluminum pulley. It absolutely will increase the stress on the crank in certain speed ranges, and it's unnecessary. There is no real gain to doing it, other then the guy at jiffy lube admiring your shiney *(#%#, so why bother? Most people simply aren't living on the edge of what their crank will tolerate, and thus they get away with it. 

I had an idea the other day- run an electric water pump, extend the alternator pulley out to run off the outer belt, and eliminate the inner belt entirely. What do you guys think? Probably more for the race oriented guys, but it would get rid of a pile of pullies, a belt, and it would cool better as well. 

:thumbup:


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I've seen road race turbo 4 cyl spit out cranks after only a few sessions with an aluminum pulley. It absolutely will increase the stress on the crank in certain speed ranges, and it's unnecessary. There is no real gain to doing it, other then the guy at jiffy lube admiring your shiney *(#%#, so why bother? Most people simply aren't living on the edge of what their crank will tolerate, and thus they get away with it.
> 
> I had an idea the other day- run an electric water pump, extend the alternator pulley out to run off the outer belt, and eliminate the inner belt entirely. What do you guys think? Probably more for the race oriented guys, but it would get rid of a pile of pullies, a belt, and it would cool better as well.
> 
> :thumbup:


EXACTLY what I want! I want to delete to a/c and basically run everything off one belt. We have something great here without a power steering pump to worry about. or how about removing the a/c and relocating the alternator to the compressors old location? And then aux electric water pump? Could be cool and i'd love having that option!


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

Or? Make the alternator run off the crank with a pulley that uses 2 belts and have the inner part run the water pump?
then extend the tensioner pulleys on a few parts?


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> ...
> 
> I had an idea the other day- run an electric water pump, extend the alternator pulley out to run off the outer belt, and eliminate the inner belt entirely. What do you guys think? Probably more for the race oriented guys, but it would get rid of a pile of pullies, a belt, and it would cool better as well.
> 
> :thumbup:


The vr6 has a secondary loop and secondary, electric water pump that functioned as an "after run" pump. This kept coolant flowing through the somewhere (not sure but atleast the radiator) after it was shut down to reduce/prevent hot spots, coking, hard deposits in radiator, and coolant from breaking down.

I love your idea of reducing all that unsprung mass and parasitic drag w/this electric pump. If we could also run the electric pump as an "after run" system, this would be even more beneficial!

Would there be a way to do this w/out a secondary coolant loop by just adding the electrical water pump you are talking about? Lol oil cooler delete + electric water pump = secondary loop/after run system? put load switch on it so it shuts off when the tstat closes and pump begins to draw more amperage (like the anti-pinch feature of window regulators). That would be the BOMBBBBBBB :laugh: You guys prob have a way better way of doing something similar w/a couple relays and a wire lol. I'll leave that part up to you opcorn:

man i wish i had your job. :heart:

Great ideas guys and thanks for participating pete. Now if we could get gruven over here we'd have one heck of a thread going on this.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Typically an electric water pump is the only water pump in the system, and the thermostat is removed. The water pump flow is varied instead to control coolant temperature. It's usually done like that on imports because you often can't add an external water pump to the right part of the coolant system in order to keep the thermostat. 

I already looked at moving the alternator where the a/c compressor is. While that would probably be ideal for race apps, it's not going to be easy... The A/C compressor mounts from the "front" of the car, while the alternator mounts in standard style, from the side. So, it would require a rather large / bulky adapter, to change that around. 

I personally think that would be ideal, but I'm pretty certain it's a *very* small market. 


There is no way to run the water pump directly off the crank snout because there is an engine block in the way. If we flipped / made a dished water pump pulley, it would work, but only in engine swap applications because then it would hit the side motor mount. 

I'm getting ready to put one of these onto our engine dyno and all I need is an alternator, that's why I've been staring at this trying to figure out how to simplify a bit. I also need some room on the block somewhere to build longitudinal style motor mounts, so getting rid of some accessories might help me there too.


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

Lets not get carried away and try to stick with our initial train of thought. I'm all for reducing drag on the engine but I doubt there's a huge market for people that want to delete their a/c and want to rework all their belts and then buy and install an electric water pump. That being said, I know alot of us have bought the crank underdriven pulley from either NST or Neuspeed. It's cheap and not that difficult to do. So if we had the chance to do all the pulleys, I'm sure alot more people would be willing to break out those debit cards. So, lets try and get the ball rolling.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

The only pulleys on the BGP you can lighten are the idlers which we have been making for 2+ years now.
A/C Compressor is clutch type so you will need to send in your A/C comp to us in order to get that pulley changed to aluminum.
Same goes for Alternator.
Water pump pulley is pressed onto water pump hub so you would need to purchase a water pump from us and then have the pulley pressed on.
Crankshaft - as stated above ...you really shoudnt be lightening this under any circumstance.

HTH:thumbup:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Issam Abed said:


> The only pulleys on the BGP you can lighten are the idlers which we have been making for 2+ years now.


do you have em done?


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Oh ok thanks pete!

Would totally give up AC for this but you're right would be a tiny market, as I probably couldn't get around w/out a good defroster for my windscreen in the rain :banghead: I didn't realize the pump had to be so fancy either. Sounds pricey. I thought since it is a closed loop the pump speed wouldn't matter. Shows what I know.

Thank you Isaam for the tip! Kind of good and bad news at same time hehe.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

thygreyt said:


> do you have em done?


Can have them done in 14 business days as we have them in que to be made now.
whoever wants just email me


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

the iddlers are a total of 5 pullies?


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

I thought there was only 2 in our configuration.


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

pennsydubbin said:


> *BGP*


Nvm theres 4 haha. Guess doing that would yeild some results without lightening anything else. How much would a set of the 4 tensioners/idlers be then?


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

I want to relocate my alt. And remove my a/c that is all!

Dropping it down could also help by putting that weight down low!

Or what about pressing a dished pulley on the alt and water pump. so they run off the pulley?


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