# NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (Includes TB 00-03-11, 27?04?01, and 27?06?06)



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton*

While shopping at the local NAPA store, I found the perfect battery maintainer to use when I am doing any kind of work on my Phaeton. As most of you are aware, it is essential to either have the engine running or have a battery maintainer hooked up to the vehicle power supply battery (the left hand battery) if you plan to leave the ignition power on for more than a few minutes while you are servicing the car.
Two things impressed me about this charger: First, it is made by Midtronics, the same company that makes the VW approved battery charger that the VW dealers use. Second, it has a switch on it that supports charging of Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries, and the vehicle power supply battery on our Phaetons is the new AGM type. The charger was quite inexpensive - about $60 Canadian dollars. Likely it sells for about $50 in America.
I don't think this is a necessary tool for everyone, but it would certainly be a worthwhile addition to your tool collection if, for example, you have a VAG-COM diagnostic scan tool, and want to be able to scan the car without leaving the engine running.
Here is a link to a description of this product: Midtronics
*NAPA Battery Maintainer*
























*VW Recommended Battery Maintainer*
_Sure looks similar - made by the same company - except, the one pictured above is newer, and has a special setting for Phaeton AGM batteries._


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

By the way, there is a much more detailed explanation of why it is so important to not let the vehicle power supply battery discharge at this post: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement.
There is also a picture there that shows how the staff at the Transparent Factory in Dresden hook up a battery maintainer - always directly to the terminals of the left side battery in the trunk, and *NEVER *to the two boosting terminals that are under the hood. The boosting terminals under the hood only supply power to the starter - it is impossible for power to be supplied to the vehicle power supply battery from the two terminals under the hood.
Michael


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Nice post... Very informative... 
Thank You.
Douglas


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

I have a "battery minder" connected to one of my cars that sees limited service. It is not a charger per se. Can such a device be used on a '04 V-8 P Car safely? I have it hard wired to my 427 Cobra's battery with an idiot proof pig tail that was supplied with the product. It has never let me down. I have an extra unit from my just sold Corvette and would like to use it on the P Car. Any issues?
RB


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Rowayton)*

Hi Ron:
I don't have the knowledge needed to answer that question. I do know that the vehicle power supply battery on the Phaeton is an Absorbed Glass Mat battery, which is a different form of battery construction than the standard automotive battery (the starter battery on the right side of the Phaeton is a standard battery).
I think you would have to do some research about what the differences (if any) are between trickle charging the AGM battery and trickle charging a standard battery. I kind of suspect that for ongoing maintenance purposes - rather than initial charging, or deep cycling - the differences would be pretty small, but I don't want to go on record as stating that, because I have not done any research into the matter.
Michael


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## bigbugiv (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

as always, great insight for us novice!


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

My NAPA unit (Nice and sturdy and great instruction sheet) is doing it's job right now, Let you know if anything untoward occurs.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

For those of you who are comfortable reading wiring diagrams, here is one that will illustrate to you why the battery maintainer must be hooked up to the Vehicle Power Supply Battery in the left rear corner of the car, and not to the two jump starting terminals under the hood.
Put your finger on the terminal under the hood (TV2) and trace the line that goes to the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (A). You will note that the Battery Paralleling Relay (J581), which is normally open, is smack in the middle of that wire. The Battery Paralleling Relay only closes when the 'emergency start' function is invoked - or at very low outside air temperatures (14° F or less for gasoline powered Phaetons). 
Michael


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

After not haveing driven the Fay for a week, I did complete the full charging of the AGM battery, using the NAPA unit you suggested.
Everything worked as advertised. The NAPA is a nice unit. Well constructed and small enought to keep stored in the trunk.
Don


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here is a copy of an OLD (December of 2003) Technical Bulletin (TB) from Volkswagen that stresses the importance of always connecting a battery maintainer to a Phaeton whenever any maintenance or diagnostic work is being done.
What this means to us, as owners, is that if we want to leave the ignition turned on - or even leave the key stuck in the ignition slot - for more than 5 minutes, we have to do one of two things: Start the engine, or connect a battery maintainer. This information is especially important for Phaeton owners who have their own diagnostic scan tool (VAG-COM or VAS 5052).
Low voltage on the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (the left hand battery) has been proven to be the root cause of all the world's problems, including malnutrition in the third world, split ends, bad hair days, and why you can't buy a good 5¢ cigar in this country anymore. In fact, it is known to the State of California that low voltage on the Vehicle Power Supply Battery causes something else as well - they just forgot what it was. But, give them a few months, and the State of California will likely put a warning sticker on the left hand battery.







Until then, you will have to make do just by reading the TB.
Michael

_Note added Sept 2012: the attachment below is the most recent version of this TB that I have._


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Thank you for this information, Michael, and for your later clarification in reply to my question. I am not experiencing any problems with my 05 V, but I do plan to get the software, so this will come in handy. After much searching in Pittsburgh, a friend of mine finally found this charger, for $60, at a NAPA store nerar his residence in NJ, so I'm all set now.
An unrelated question: I am looking or the shop manal for an old (1988) Mercedes 260E and seem to remember your mentioning a site where you buy your books, but can't find the thread. This car belongs to my father in law and I need to do some pesky work, sch as replacing one or two instrument bulbs and repairing the headlight washers: the kind of work which can go much faster if you know how to disassemble interior trim and dash, etc.
Many thanks, as usual, for yor help and wisdom.
Motorista


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Just to follow up I could not find anything about the NAPA type of charger in the UK however in asking my local battery shop they recommended the CTEK battery maintainer which caters for all batteries including the AGM battery for which it has specific setting. It has a number of settings and seems to do the job.








































_Modified by pilgrim7777 at 12:03 PM 1-28-2006_


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (pilgrim7777)*

Anyone know if the 'solar' battery maintainer that ships with some of the VW products (it's a VW part) can be used to keep the AGM battery happy? Most customers are not given this free solar panel if the car had one prior to delivery. If your dealer has one floating around in the prep department they will give it to you (for free as per VW instructions). The trouble is that no one knows if it will work with a Phaeton as the car is not shipped with one. It plugs into the lighter/flash light receptacle. Any danger?


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (Rowayton)*

There's no danger because it doesn't do much more than sit there and look cute on your dashboard. 
Those were originally used as a stopgap to ameliorate battery discharge problems on Beetles & Jettas coming up from Mexico. The problems were twofold: (1) you need bucketloads of direct sun to make any difference and (2) if you started the car with the panel plugged in, the power would occasionally backfeed and fry a resistor, rendering it useless. 
I can't tell you how many of those we had plugged in on lot cars and still had to jump start them to get them going.
With the next generation (A5), a "transportation mode" was developed to keep anything non-essential switched off until delivery was taken.


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (chrisj428)*

Thanks Chris,
Forgot the unwritten law that says that if it's available for free it will not work on anything I have. I think I'll wire it up to a night light and sell it on EBay








RB


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (Rowayton)*

It looks very high-tech, though. Plus, if you every have to go to visit the Sierra Club, you can display it prominently on your dash and look very politically correct.








More info, pictures of this thing here: Solar Battery Charger
Michael
*Solar Battery Charger*


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Plus, if you every have to go to visit the Sierra Club, you can display it prominently on your dash and look very politically correct.

Don't forget to order another escutcheon to change the "W12" to read "12V".


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (chrisj428)*

Hey, that would mean I could call it a hybrid, I think... and apply for a zillion dollar government subsidy and tax rebate.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I could ... apply for a zillion dollar government subsidy and tax rebate.

Michael,
I didn't realize that legislation extended to the 51st state. Tremendous! Should buy you scads of petrol!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_I didn't realize that legislation extended to the 51st state.

Oh yes - our politicians work the same way as yours do: They never miss an opportunity to buy the voter's loyalty using the voter's own tax dollars to do it...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Volkswagen has released a new TB (Technical Bulletin) 27-06-06 which stresses that the Midtronics MCR340V and InCharge 940 are the only approved battery chargers for use on all model year Phaetons.
The concern here is (among other things) that the left side battery - the vehicle power supply battery - is an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) battery. AGM batteries use a newer type of technology and cannot be safely charged with an old-fashioned battery charger.
Those of you who had a close look at the wiring diagram above, the one that shows how the jumping terminals under the hood connect to the starter, will have noticed that the Phaeton automatically isolates external power applied to those terminals from the left side (AGM) battery. So, if you are jump-starting the Phaeton, you don't have to worry. But, if you are recharging the battery by connecting a charger directly to the battery terminals, you need to follow the warning in the attached TB.
Michael

_Note added Sept 2012: See the TB posted earlier on this page (up above), it is the most recent version (27-06-06) of this TB that I have. Michael_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Just for the record, here is the older TB (the previous TB) that has now been superceded by TB 27-06-06 above.
The older TB (27–04–01) contains useful information about how to connect the battery charger that is not reproduced in the newer TB. It appears to me that the newer TB does not repudiate the instructions contained in the older TB, the newer one simply stresses that the only approved chargers for the Phaeton are the MCR340V and InCharge 940... which are the same ones mentioned in the older TB.
Michael


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## petermueller (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

This charger can be ordered online at napaonline.com. The price before tax and shipping is $42.99. After shipping and tax was $50. for me.


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (petermueller)*

I want to maintain the battery(s) on my UK Phaeton which sometime stands for two or more weeks, particularly in winter. I have read this and other strings with interest and note Michael's warnings about keeping battery charge levels up, and the complex problems that otherwise can ensue.
I do not at this stage envisage getting a Vag-Com, thought I am hoping for another UK GTG with Michael Moore with chance to do a few things with his Vag-Com (in return for unlimited coffee and the UK equivalent of key lime pie - treacle tart?). 
Therefore what I want is a small trickle unit that I can permanently connect to one, or perhaps two, of the batteries and then connect to the mains electricity. Then forget about it until I next use the car. It would be nice to be able to leave the car locked in the meantime, with window closed and not need daylight support.
The 12v 10amp Midtronics unit at the start of the post seems a bit big for my purposes, and it does not seem to specifically say it can be left connnected long term and maintain the battery (though it does switch off after peak charge is achieved) and anyway I cannot find it in the UK on the web.
On other vehicles I have I use a Swiss product from Airflow-UK:
http://www.airflow-uk.com/battery-conditioner.htm
In view of Michael's comments on AGM batteries I contacted the UK retailer of the airflow unit who confirmed that "The AGM battery is still a lead acid battery and I can see no reason why the conditioner cannot be used." However that vagueness leaves me lacking confidence. I am inclined to go back to him and ask him to specifically check compatibilty of the airflow conditioner with both the Phaeton batteries with the manufacturers. I cannot find the precise battery specifications in the manual or indeed in the Phaeton maintenance manual that I bought off Erwin, and cannot see the AGM battery label sufficiently in-situ either, my supplier has at least however confirmed the batteries are: 
Left Hand: AGM, 92amps, part no 000915105CE
Right hand: 61 amps, 000915105AD

So I have the following questions, if anyone can help:
1. Should I seek more specific advise from the supplier of the airflow unit?
2. Would the Ctek Multi XS 3600 that Pilgtim suggests above be a better bet (suporting the AGM batteries specifically).
3. Would I be able to maintain both batteries with one unit (perhaps using a larger Ctek 7000 unit as shown on http://www.sailgb.com/p/12v_battery_chargers_ctek/ )
4. Is it best to maintain the battery long term from the boot (trunk) or interior via the front cigar lighter, and if I want to leave it locked would a cable through damage the seals (looks as if VW do it from a photo elsewhere in the forum) ?
PETER M


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PeterMills)*

Hi Peter:
Midtronics, the company that manufactures the battery maintainer pictured at the top of this thread, is a huge company and I would be very surprised if they do not sell their products in the UK. If they do, the cost of the VW spec maintainer should be about ₤25 or so, no more. Perhaps do a bit of local inquiries and see what you can find.
Whatever you wind up using, you will have to connect it directly to the posts on the left (comfort) battery. You cannot charge the car 'backwards' via the 12 volt outlets, or by connecting to the jump starting terminals under the hood.
Michael


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

I found the battery charger Michael bought at NAPAonline.com. It sure looks like the right product to have at not a bad price of $42.99. Here's the link to it:
http://www.napaonline.com/mast...arger
I went to my local Autozone store and they didn't seem to have the right charger.
Thanks Michael!
Robert


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Just for the record the CTEK XS 3600 battery maintainer come with a number differing connectors including the ones that connect directly to the battery. On the instructions it clearly states suitable for AGM batteries.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (pilgrim7777)*

Hi Terence:
The only think I am not sure of (maybe I missed reading about it) was whether or not the Phaeton will accept power that is delivered into the 12 volt outlets for the purpose of sending it back to the battery. Because of the nature of the dual battery system in the Phaeton, I think that the car might be quite picky about letting current flow into either of the two batteries from any source other than the alternator... hence the reason why VW is always stressing the importance of hooking up the battery maintainer to the terminals.
If you have the opportunity to put a voltmeter across the left battery terminals and observe whether the voltage changes when you plug the maintainer into the 12 volt outlet, that would probably provide a pretty authoritative answer to the question.
Michael


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (rscharf)*

Just an update that I bought the battery maintainer and used it several nights to charge my battery before the controller was replaced. I plan to use it while Vagcoming my car sometime in the future. What a handy thing to have if you want to mess around with the car with it off. I had it plugged in while I was diagnosing a bad speaker with the stereo turned up. My front passenger side woofer (the lowest speaker in the door) will definitely need to be replaced in the future. It takes a very specific frequency in the music to show it is faulty.
Robert


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

HI Michael:
I have had it connected through the 12 Volt outlet in the cabin and the self diagnostic showed it was working and showed the battery was fully charged after being connected on charge for some hours this shows up by the unit indicating a green light. Although after looking at the wiring diagram I decided it would be safer to connect direct to the battery. The CTEK is quite a cute/smart device with self diagnostics and has a variety of settings this makes very safe to use with the AGM battery. I will as you suggest put a voltmeter across the battery when plugged in to the cabin 12 volt outlet.


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## calmone (Feb 15, 2006)

*battery life*

in the past week i've gotten a "please start engine" message on the info screen. i then put my battrey tender on the trunk battery over night, and no problem. however, after a night without the tender, i got the message again. i can only assume the batery isn't up to snuff. what life should one expect from the rear battery, and what am i looking at in replacing it?


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

*Re: battery life (calmone)*

Which battery? The left or the right side battery? A battery minder (unless stated on the device) will not work correctly on a glass mat battery like your left side battery. How long do you drive your car each day? The left battery gets quite a workout in winter. As questioned, I too would like to know what the life expectancy of the glass mat battery is and what the one that fits the Phaeton will sooner or latter cost to replace.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: battery life (calmone)*

Hi William:
I think the average service life for an automotive battery is about 4 years. For those of us with 2004 Phaetons (vehicles that were manufactured in 2003), this suggests we may soon be facing the need to replace the battery - or batteries.
Most VW batteries have the week and year of manufacture stamped on the top of one of the battery posts. You can check this pretty easily without having to remove the battery from the car - just use a flashlight.
You are correct in concluding that the "please start engine" message means that the left battery has critically low voltage. But, this might not mean that the battery has reached the end of its life. First check to make sure that your charger is one that is designed for AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries. These chargers will usually have a switch on them that allow you to choose either AGM or normal for the charging cycle. Then, charge the battery overnight for a few days in a row (between driving cycles) and see if the warning goes away. Lastly, check to see if there is any possibility of an overlooked current draw in the car when you are not using it, for example, a cellphone charger or similar plugged into a 12 volt outlet.
Michael


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## Ph8on (May 31, 2007)

*Re: battery life (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael. I think this may also be the answer to my post regarding all my electronics blanking out for a moment because i have also been getting the "Please Start Engine" message.
Troy


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: battery life (Ph8on)*

Hi Troy:
Uh, yes, there is a definite correlation there. "Please Start Engine" is VW-speak for "Your left battery is critically low", and low left battery voltage is the cause of 99% of all problems ever encountered with a Phaeton.
The trick is to get a battery charger from a local automotive store (Pep Boys or similar) that is designed to charge AGM batteries, then connect it to the car and leave it hooked up for 18 hours or so. I have posted a picture of the charger I use below. It cost me about $50, and it is the exact same charger as VW supplies to the dealerships.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 12:13 AM 1-6-2008_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: battery life (PanEuropean)*

Once you get the charger, hook it up directly to the left battery terminals. Don't hook it up to the terminals under the hood, if you try to supply electricity there the electricity will only go to the starter motor, not back to the battery.
Michael


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## Ph8on (May 31, 2007)

*Re: battery life (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael. I'll look into getting one tomorrow. Quick question: Based on the approximate life of the current battery, 4 years or so; is it worth charging it or should a new battery be purchased?
Troy


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: battery life (Ph8on)*

Kind of hard to say. I recommend you get the battery charger in any event, it is a useful device to have. If charging it up for a few days doesn't solve the problem, then that would indicate battery replacement.
Michael


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: battery life (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Due to the frequent threads (especially your thread on the battery problem) I recently got the charger below from NAPA and it says it can charge AGM batteries. It is about half the size of yours so from the picture below can you kindly help confirm that its good enough for the Phaeton.
Thank you.


















_Modified by maverixz at 9:24 PM 1-6-2008_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: battery life (maverixz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maverixz* »_Michael,
Due to the frequent threads (especially your thread on the battery problem) I recently got the charger below from NAPA and it says it can charge AGM batteries. It is about half the size of yours so from the picture below can you kindly help confirm that its good enough for the Phaeton.

I just bought the same model from NAPA as you did two days earlier. It fits the requirements for the AGM battery so I would expect it to be just fine.
I've been having a few electrical anomalies that seem to have cleared up after an overnight charge. I have a short commute and I run the seat and wheel heating so I suspect I've run the battery down a bit. 
Steven


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: battery life (maverixz)*

The little charger (the one with the green label) is made by the same company (Midtronics), so I suspect it will work, except.... I think its capacity (2 amps) is not sufficient for the Phaeton. Given a choice between the two, I would recommend the larger one, because the larger one is an exact duplicate of what the VW dealerships use.
Note, however, that I am not an expert on battery chargers...








Michael


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: battery life (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_The little charger (the one with the green label) is made by the same company (Midtronics), so I suspect it will work, except.... I think its capacity (2 amps) is not sufficient for the Phaeton. 

The model we both bought can charge at 2 amps or 10 amps depending on the user selectable switch setting. It even has a starter boost mode to help start a car with a dead battery. It also automatically switches to a battery maintainer mode once the battery is charged and thus avoids overcharging. It's a very well designed, yet simple device. 
BTW, I believe it would be OK to charge the battery at 2 amps rather than 10 amps, it just would take longer. But then I'm not a battery charging expert either.
Also, I don't think the two chargers are very different in size. It's just that one is vertically oriented and the other horizontal.
Steven


_Modified by car_guy at 4:16 PM 1-7-2008_


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## johne500 (Oct 21, 2006)

*Re: battery life (calmone)*

This is a problem with many of the Phaetons I have just replaced the left side battery for the fourth time at 62k


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (pilgrim7777)*

UK owners wanting a battery maintainer may be interested in my posting on:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3640301
PETER M


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## george777 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PeterMills)*

I've gone ahead and ordered the bigger of the 2 units (above), since the car will be sitting in garage for long periods (3 to 4 weeks at a time). It's been also recommended that I keep her 'locked' so she'll go into 'sleep mode'... (as always, I'm totally greatful to Chris for all his great info.)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (george777)*

Photos rehosted


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## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Picked up this maintainer at Napa Auto Parts today! Took two days to arrive and it was $42.36 with tax! Napa is having a 10-50% all items in the store in San Jose. I don't know alternate Napa stores are having the same sale. Nice Investment! Going to charge the battery once a month per Michael's recommendation. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (VWGlf00GL)*

Easiest way to charge it is to just plug it in and leave it plugged in overnight. I have found that it is possible to close the trunk lid over top of the 120 volt electrical cable that supplies the battery maintainer. This allows me to lock the car up if it is outside while it is being charged.
Michael


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton (PanEuropean)*

Back in October, I left the car parked for three weeks as we went on vacation. For the first few days aftwerwards, everything was perfect with the car but subsequently I got a trifecta:
- CEL light
- Suspension level failure-workshop! every few minutes (would clear itself, then come back)
- TMPS system failure
All yellow lights, nothing red, but annoying anyway. The day before I took the car in, I even hit the trunk lid power button and the thing only went down halfway. Had to hit the button again for trunk to close.
So when I took the car in, of course I was (yet again) accused of whether did I close the gas cap tightly, did I check my tire pressures, have I taken too long between services (am at 39,000 now), etc., etc., etc., oh, and by the way, did I know that I am all out of warranty? Annoying, but I tried not to show it.
I mentioned that hey, perhaps who knows maybe since various systems were failing at the same time on a car that just recently got a major maintenance 500 miles ago, could this possibly be a voltage situation rather than actual failures? Not likely, I was told; but they would check "the computer" and get back to me.
Good news is that I got yet more free TMPS sensors, so I think I'm taken care of for all five wheels for the next five years. I also got a new suspension level controller, whatever that is.
But anyway, I decided to take matters in my own hand and bought the NAPA thing to keep th car plugged in. *Who knew I own a 12-cylinder plug-in vehicle?* Besides, the Phaeton is becoming a garage queen now that we got a newer vehicle. $52.85, tax included.
It's been plugged in for a couple of hours. The yellow light (AC power) is on, the green light neither lights up nor flashes. The NAPA thing is warm, though, so I'll assume it is working.










_Modified by Itzmann at 5:23 PM 12-8-2008_


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## kj3117 (Mar 20, 2009)

*Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work*

My 2004 phaeton that i just bought will not start but all of the electronics work when the battery is hooked up, also i do not need the key to work the radio or most other electronics, please help!


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (kj3117)*

Keith -
I just sent you an IM.
~Nate


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## scottmm (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi kj, when you say "when the battery is hooked up" has it been unhooked for some reason? Give whatever history you can of this new-to-you car, has there been some work done recently?
I don't own a Phaeton yet, just doing some research and looking for one, but I believe there's a separate battery for starting on the right side of the trunk.
-Scott


_Modified by scottmm at 5:42 PM 3-19-2009_


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (kj3117)*

Keith,
Scott is correct. There is a dedicated "starting" battery on the right side of the trunk behind the storage bin. All of the "electronics" are powered by the battery on the left side of the trunk.
Ron


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (remrem)*

Hi,
I have had this very same problem. What happened was the following.
I have a kessy module (keyless locking, but also start button).
I could open the doors by touching them. When I got in, all the electronics were working, and my key was recognised on the infotainment module, but the car wouldn't start...
What the dealer told me is that apparently, the kessy module that resides in the bottom of the driver footwell was corroded, which resulted in the fact that the key was not recognised anymore to start the engine...
Maybe you have the same problem. (The car had to be towed to the dealer).
P.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: (scottmm)*

Scott,
Why don't you own one yet. Its time to buy one!








Do you work for Neway the maker of airbags?


----------



## scottmm (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: (Kcmover)*

Neway? No, but I probably had a hand in making many other parts. These are certainly Gentex mirrors.
I'm changing careers next month, going from automotive back to airline pilot, although I'll still consult in automotive. I'll give up my company car, and I need a dependable highway cruiser. But I have a couple months till I really need the car, and I'm very picky and practical about my cars. The Phaeton is almost perfect, but I'm not sold that it won't cost me a fortune to maintain at the level I require. And I've hit seven deer in my 400-mile round trips to the airport. How will the Phaeton look with a bull-bar on the front? Any Australian forum members?
-Scott


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## Solipsism12 (Feb 18, 2008)

Previous model Passat's look better with bull-bars.
If the batterys have been fiddled with, maybe somebody blew the safety disconnect on the (right-side) starter battery cable - that would keep the car from starting, but I'm thinking the (left-side) accessory battery would let all the other electronics function.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (kj3117)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kj3117* »_My 2004 phaeton that i just bought will not start but all of the electronics work...

Hello Keith:
First of all, welcome to our forum community - I note that this is your first post.
I am sure you will have a lot of fun with your Phaeton, it is a delightful car, but the car does demand a much higher level of "owner knowledge" than other cars, this due to the complexity of the systems. Of course, the very complexity of the systems is what provides all the fun... so, welcome back to school, so to speak.
Concerning your starting problem: Phaetons have two batteries in them. The battery on the left side of the trunk is the larger of the two and it is used to power the various comfort systems on the vehicle. This battery is formally called the "Vehicle Power Supply Battery", and is more commonly referred to as the "comfort battery".
The battery on the right hand side of the trunk is a little bit smaller and is used exclusively for cranking the starter motor. It is called the starter battery.
Normally, when you enter the car, it is the comfort battery that is powering the dome lights, lighting up the displays, making the radio work, all that kind of stuff. When you start the car, power from the left battery is used to close the relay that connects the right battery to the starter motor. The car then starts.
If one battery is flat, it is possible to parallel both batteries together using the battery parallelling relay. VW has taken a very clever approach to how the close the parallelling relay - if the driver puts the key in the ignition and turns it fully clockwise (as if to start the car), then fully counter-clockwise (as if to turn it off), then fully clockwise again, the parallelling relay will close. They chose this sequence of operations because it is very close to what a frustrated driver would do instinctively to try and start a car that is refusing to start. My guess is that you are not frustrated enough, you are just turning the key from the middle (off) position to the clockwise (start) position repeatedly. Work the key *fully *back and forth, then the car will start.
Normally, the comfort battery is the one that goes flat, and when you work the key back and forth, the starter battery winds up providing current to light the car up as well as crank the starter. Because you just bought your car, chances are that no-one had started it for a long time when it was at the dealer, so, you have a fully charged comfort battery but a dead starter battery. That is quite unusual, but understandable in your circumstance. In any case, the fix is the same regardless of which battery is dead - just put the key in the ignition, put your foot on the brake, then twist the key from one extreme to the other until the car starts. Probably it will start after the second twisting cycle.
We have a "Table of Contents" of all sorts of interesting information that is useful for new Phaeton owners - you can find the Table of Contents near the top of page 1 of the forum topic list, or, just click here: Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category)
I recommend that you buy a battery charger. There is an explanation about battery chargers here: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton. Your car was built in 2003, 6 years ago. Batteries normally only last about 5 years. If you still have the original batteries (quite possible), chances are that one or both of them will reach the end of their life in the not too distant future. I'm not suggesting that you run out and buy new batteries now, but if you spend the $50 today on the battery maintainer, that will save you a lot of grief down the road if you find that one or the other of the batteries is not holding a charge. You won't have to call for a tow truck, you can just charge the thing up at your house - then, once the battery is charged up, you can drive to the battery store.








Once again - welcome to our community.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 5:28 PM 3-20-2009_


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## kj3117 (Mar 20, 2009)

thank you all so much for your help, i just took the car to the shop today, i tried turning the key back and fourth but that did not start it. Also I just had bought a new comfort battery a few days ago, and the starter batter is fully charged from what my battery charger told me. Im hopeing that only the safety diconnect was blown. Does anyone know how long it takes to do a diagnostic on this car? I think the shop is trying to get all they can out of us because we were told it would only take 1 hour and cost $60 but when we got there they told us it would take 4 hours we would have to leave it there and the starting price would be $120 for the diagnostic. 


_Modified by kj3117 at 4:24 PM 3-21-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (kj3117)*

Hello Keith:
There is a safety disconnect on the starter battery (right side one), but none on the comfort battery.
It should take no more than 10 to 15 minutes to actually run the diagnostic scan. However, you have to add another 10 to 15 minutes to that for bringing the car into the shop, fetching the equipment, stuff like that, so it is quite reasonable for a shop to charge half an hour of labour (about $60) to do a scan. That is what my dealership charges and I think they are very trustworthy and honourable.
That 30 minutes of time generates a report that lists any fault codes that may be present in the vehicle. For a very straightforward problem such as you have, it should be a simple matter to find out (from the diagnostic report) where the heck the problem is, then solve the problem.
Did you purchase the battery from the same dealer you are dealing with for service? Does the new battery comply with the specification of the original battery - same size, capacity, also AGM [absorbed glass mat] construction?
If you just purchased a new comfort battery from your dealer a few days ago, it seems to me that they should not charge you to resolve the problem if it turns out that the problem relates to the replacement of the battery.
Michael


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
If one battery is flat, it is possible to parallel both batteries together using the battery parallelling relay. VW has taken a very clever approach to how the close the parallelling relay - if the driver puts the key in the ignition and turns it fully clockwise (as if to start the car), then fully counter-clockwise (as if to turn it off), then fully clockwise again, the parallelling relay will close. They chose this sequence of operations because it is very close to what a frustrated driver would do instinctively to try and start a car that is refusing to start. My guess is that you are not frustrated enough, you are just turning the key from the middle (off) position to the clockwise (start) position repeatedly. Work the key *fully *back and forth, then the car will start.
Michael
_Modified by PanEuropean at 5:28 PM 3-20-2009_


Michael-
Just to comment on your note above based on my experience from last night.
Arrived home at 7pm last night after a ~15 mile round trip. Car operated fine. I went to start it at 10:30pm and all the lights were on, but the car didn't crank at all. I repeatedly moved the key from left to right and still nothing. I put the battery maintainer on the comfort battery and ran a scan for any error codes. Here are the results that caught my eye:
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
Part No SW: 09L 927 760 C HW: GS1 9.0 4.1 
Component: AG6 09L 4,2L V8 1003 
Coding: 0001102
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
1 Fault Found:
16944 - System Voltage: Malfunction 
P0560 - 000 - - - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
RPM: 0 /min
RPM: 0 /min
(no units): 30.0
(no units): 109.0
Temperature: 25.0°C
T.B. Angle: 0.0°
Voltage: 9.28 V
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 M HW: 5WK 470 26
Component: Kessy 6400 
Coding: 0137452
Shop #: WSC 25038 444 92087
Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX
1 Fault Found:
01049 - Supply Voltage Term 50 
009 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049.lbl
Part No: 3D0 937 049 G
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
2 Faults Found:
00907 - Intervention load Management 
000 - - 
00884 - Ignition Switch (D) Terminal X 
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
My mind began to jump to the worst conclusions and I was thinking that maybe the shop had not connected everything back up correctly back in April when the engine and transmission were out.
I was going to have the car flatbeded to the dealership this morning. When I called, they said I should try having it jumpstarted first.
Since I had only been charging the comfort battery, I put the charger on the starter battery and within several minutes I was at least getting some clicking out of the starter.
When the tow truck arrived, the car started right up with a jump.
NOTE: Before you have to ever jump start your Phaeton, look at the picture in the manual or open up your hood and take a look. The positive post for jump starting is pretty obvious being red in color and it just flips to the side. The negative post is just that, a silver post pointing to the front of the car and it is located just right of the positive post. Just one problem I encountered, that post has a plastic cap on it that unscrews counterclockwise as you look at it from the front of the car. Initially we were trying to jump start it with the negative cable clamped to that plastic cap. Needless to say, that did no good in jump starting the car.







Once it was connected correctly to the post under the cap the car cranked right up.
So, now the starting battery was suspicious. I removed the battery quite easily. I took it to an auto parts store and they verified the battery was bad. The $129 replacement battery was bigger than the original and I knew that I wouldn't be able to fasten it securely in the car the way the Phaeton battery mount is designed. So, I went over to my local VW dealership and bought a starting battery for $110 plus tax and $3 disposal fee.
I installed the new battery and the car started right up!








*I wrote up this whole experience to show that (at least in my case) battery parrallelling did not seem to work to start the car when the starter battery was bad.* That was one reason I suspected that I didn't have a battery problem, I thought if I parrallelled that the car would start with the comfort battery.
Just for folks that might be curious, I have an '04 that has been in service for almost 5.5 years and I have 42k miles on my car. Living in Texas, the heat definitely contributes to shorter battery life. I wonder how much time I have left on the comfort battery before it needs to be replaced? I didn't ask how much that one costs.








Looking on the bright side, at least the car failed to start at home, and at least this was a wear and tear item, not some major repair.
Hope this helps folks as our factory batteries start to die.
Robert


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (rscharf)*

Hi Robert:
Thanks a lot for the detailed and informative post. It is most interesting that the vehicle did not start with a dead starter battery (right battery) but a satisfactory left battery.
About that plastic cap on the negative jump-starting terminal - I wondered about that myself when I first saw it, but the folks at the factory told me that there would be more problems (corrosion, poor electrical conductivity) if they did not put the protective cap in place, but instead painted over the negative terminal. I do agree that it can catch you unaware if you don't know about it...
Concerning battery life, I think anything past 5 years in service is "living on borrowed time". By way of example, the left battery in my 2004 Phaeton was replaced at the time I took delivery of the car in October of 2004, and I know (from past experience) that it is going to be dead when I return home from holidays and try to start it after the car has been sitting for 3 weeks without being used.
Common sense tells me I should replace it, but 'inherent cheapness' prevents me from doing so. As long as it does not cause me problems on a day-to-day basis, I'll leave the 5+ year old battery in place. The first time it becomes a real PITA, I'll go buy a replacement from my VW dealer.
Michael


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Robert:
Thanks a lot for the detailed and informative post. It is most interesting that the vehicle did not start with a dead starter battery (right battery) but a satisfactory left battery.
Michael


Michael-
Thinking more about my comfort battery, maybe it is about to go and didn't have enough cranking power when I tried to switch over and put the batteries in parallel. It seems like there would have been some kind of noise though. It wasn't until I put the charger on the starter battery that I was at least hearing some clicking from the starter. Really strange since I seem to have enough power for everything that the comfort battery is providing power for.
Thanks for your response.
Robert


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (rscharf)*

Just for the record, attached is an excerpt from a VW publication that explains colour coding for batteries that are supplied as replacement parts (rather than shipped with the vehicle from the factory).
My experience has been that the batteries usually have the week and year of manufacture stamped onto the top of the positive battery post, so, it's really not necessary to refer to this additional coding process, however, here's the information anyway.
Michael


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (PanEuropean)*

Ths is such a great forum for finding out how things work and perhaps why!
I went to my 2004 Phaeton the other day and the interior lights didn't come on properly. I heard a ticking noise and saw the clock hands were spinning forwards. After a second or so they then spun backwards quite fast and then fetched up on the correct hour (Where I suppose they had been!). 
I then went to the boot (Trunk) and it wouldn't open at first. Took a few presses. When it did finally open the interiorlights did not come on. 
I started the car up, everything worked. Since then it has never done this again. 
Following Michael's comments on here I looked at the age of the battery and sure enough there were numbers on the terminal. 44 06. So I deduce this battery is a newer one than that one shipped with the car. It is a VW battery (I have discovered that this car belonged to the Glass Factory until 2007). 
Shuold I buy a trickle charger or just ignore that incident as a one off?
Thanks,
Iain


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton will not start, but all the electronics work (iberkoko)*

Iain,
I would. You may find my posting in:
ttp://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3640301 
to be useful. I went for a CTEK charger which should be available in Spain and which works with the AGM battery. I use it at least two or three times in winter to make sure the battery is in top charge, so as to avoid the problems some people have experienced. The NAPA charger that this posting starts off with is NAR only, as far as I can find out.
I remember a Turca Anthracite Phaeton when I visited the glass factory in March 2007, it was on display but registered and not new, perhaps it was yours, given how rare the colour seems to be.
PETER M


_Modified by PeterMills at 5:57 PM 12-18-2009_


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## trondsv8 (Nov 17, 2009)

Thank you all
This is useful info. And this exactly my case now.
Out there shopping cristmasgifts . A lot of smalldriving , around 15 degrees minus(celsius), and after one engine start it stops again, everyting is dark, its not possible to get the key out. I wait a minute or two, move the key from one side to another and the car starts again witout problems, but after a som e minutes it died again. 
I call the dealers call senter , and they sendt an truck, and placed my car on it and drove off to the workshop. It seems like the left battery is completely u/s, and imossible to charge. 
I hope I hear someting on monday. 
How can they open the trunk without any leftbatterypower? Do they have to force it up.
RGDS
Trond


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## trondsv8 (Nov 17, 2009)

Troubles continues. I heard from the workshop today. 
They have put in an "Sønnak" battery, not the original spesification, not an AGM, but normal lead/acid, more powerful as they say. 
They have done the same to Touaregs they said.
BUT, the car behave the same, no problem to start , but stopping again. I ask them to measure the voltage of the new battery, but nothing so far.
To be mentioned: This is not the workshop tha have taken care of my car since new, but another VW workshop that the call senter use as the closest one. Im still without my car and driving the rental they provided me( a Suzuki), and are worried about what they do wrong and get away with.
I have set my usual dealer and this other dealer in connection just to be sure that they can consult someone with experience.
RGDS
Trond


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## Bouviers (Jan 1, 2009)

*Re: Battery charger(s)*

Last year battery chargers were discussed. I remember that one model sold through NAPA stores was suggested for short periods of general maintenance.
I'm interested in recommendations for 'extended' periods of vehicle storage. Brand names, model/part numbers, or links would be very helpful.
Thank you again.
Daniel


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (trondsv8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *trondsv8* »_T
How can they open the trunk without any leftbatterypower? Do they have to force it up.


Lot of good stuff in the ToC - there are several about the boot (trunk) but one of them shows how to open with a key, even if electrics are dead... and it's in the Phaeton handbook too...
I too maybe have LHS battery problem. Car only 18 months old... I'll need to check the battery age - but the cold and dark here seem to be having a bad effect on it.
My usual commute is 40 mins - which should be enought to keep the rascal charged? But car serviced at 20k miles two days ago by VW dealer. The battery test on LH battery failed to complete at 8.5V. Drive to the dealer was 40 mins.... although I then sat in the car for 25 mins with the ignition off and the residual heat running till it knocked off. So that would have depleted it somewhat.
I've seen the very useful stuff from Peter Mills re chargers for this battery - but given my general running hours, I'm a bit surprised I need to be thinking about this. Also seen the good advice about needing a charger if working on the car... but I'm not.
I also wonder about the test that VW do. Does anyone know anything about the test, the tester, and the duty it places on the battery? Is it something we can do ourselves? VW wanted about £50 to repeat the test after a trickle charge overnight.
I find it hard to understand how the battery can be depleted of charge as nearly all the time it's in serious use the engine is running, with the voltmeter showing 14V. If this is to be believed, then how can the battery be anything other than charging in this state? Electricity, like water, doesn't flow uphill.
Be grateful for other views and experience.
regards
Mike


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (n968412L)*

Mike,
I can't give you any specific answers to your points, but in your shoes I think I would get a CTEK charger and overnight charge every week or two and see if that sorted the problem. It is possible that your particular use never lets the battery get up to peak charge condition. If the problems still continue - as they did, as it happens, on my wife's nearly new golf last year - then I would take the car into the VW garage and have them test the battery itself for its ability to take charge. On my wife's golf, after 3 hours of abortive testing of alternators etc, the VW garage finally found that a battery fault left it unable to accept charge as it should. After the battery was replaced all has been fine.
PETER M


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (PeterMills)*

Hi Peter - I think I'm destined to follow in your footsteps.... I think I'll get a CTEK charger. You've recommended the larger of the two.... but I think you're probably right not to skimp for a Phaeton!
I'm not fully convinced that I should need to do this, given my usage pattern... but you can never have too many lines of defence against the failure of technology!
I'm also a follower in snapping off the wheel locating peg when putting winter tyres on... I'll explain that fully in the relevant thread in due course.
Regards
Mike


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## sjglaser (Nov 18, 2009)

Hi all,
With all the cold weather, I purchased the NAPA 85-323A and for $49 (tax included) it is worth it. 
I hooked it up -as described by Michael - last night and must say that I am now even more impressed with the thoughtfulness of the design... With an extension card going into the trunk, the warning on the dash and the lamps in the trunk remain lit. I thought, "Oh Well," locked the car and went to bed. This morning the display was off and the lamps in the trunk off. Pretty nifty that the car realizes that it is OK to turn off the display and lights.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (sjglaser)*

Hi Stephen:
I have a 'flat' type outdoor extension cord (rather than a round cord) for the 110 volt power supply to the charger. I have no problem closing the trunk lid over top of this flat extension cord.
Michael


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (n968412L)*

Mike,
Yes I went for the larger CTEK, 7000 I think it was, among other reasons because it can be used to support the car when using a VAG-COM whilst the smaller one cannot. It has been a brilliant charger on all my vehicles and plant (I have three others I now seldom use) and seems to breath new life into batteries as if by magic (they claim it is due to its charging system renovating the battery components). 
I suspect that you may have the same battery problem, as my wife's Golf, ie it only accepts charge at a reduced rate which did not shown up on the VW test equipment, initially anyway. If you find that weekly CTEK charging sorts things but without that the problems return, and if the dealer tells you the alternator is charging fine, then that is the problem I would guess. 
I look forward to hearing your tale of woe on the wheel change peg. Mine went to the bin as posted elsewhere.
PETER M


_Modified by PeterMills at 10:22 AM 1-16-2010_


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (PeterMills)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PeterMills* »_Mike,
I look forward to hearing your tale of woe on the wheel change peg. Mine went to the bin as posted elsewhere.


Thanks for the advice Peter - and the misery I inflicted on myself with the wheel changing is here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4341754


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (PeterMills)*

Now the proud owner of CTEK 7000. One thing I can't quite work out (because I can't see the top of the battery properly for the relays and fuses etc) is the Ah of the comfort battery. Anyone know what it is - ie to give me a clue abot how long it charges for....
Thanks
Mike


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: (n968412L)*

Mike,
I may have this wrong, but I just put the charger on and leave it on untill I next use the car. The CTEK works out when it has achieved full charge, then goes onto trickle mode and you could leave it for months. It also shows you what stage it is at by the LED's.
You may have read my previous post about how to set it:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3640301 
CTEK initially suggested the snowflake setting (higher voltage charge) them concluded for the AGM battery best to use the normal setting. From a lowish level my batteries take about 12-18 hours.
Also My VW master tech said to only charge the LH AGM battery, and the RH starter battery gets charged too apparently. I can't quite understand how that he said that is what his VW training day told him.
PETER M


_Modified by PeterMills at 10:15 AM 1-21-2010_


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (PeterMills)*

Peter - thanks again. I had indeed found your other postings.
I never leave the car for more than about three days without use, and my nomal commute is of the order of 40 mins - so I don't know why I need to charge the LH battery at all. 
However I put it on for about 8 hours today and the green finish light has come on - so I guess it's charged. Funny thing is that when I turned the ignition on, the voltmeter only showed about 12.4V, although my multimeter on the battery showed 13.2V. But I guess this is just about right for fully charged on float..... Schoolboy physics needed here... and it's a long time ago!
Regards
M


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I just bought a new charger as well; a Ring RSC16 (http://www.ringautomotive.co.uk/product_detail.asp?prod=1372) which seems to offer a similar feature set to the Ctek (battery re-conditioning, trickle charging etc...) and is suitable for AGM batteries.
I tried charging the battery last weekend since there were some load intervention errors. The voltmeter was showing about 12v before charging and now shows about 12.5v but I could have sworn the car used to show about 13v when the ignition was switched on.
Is this just due to the cold temperature (4c) or should I start thinking about replacing the battery?
Harry


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

Hi Harry - if your battery is original at 4 years, the percieved wisdom of this forum seems to be that that is about it.
Really can't offer an alternative - I've no experience of AGM batteries. 
What I would like to know - and I've not seen it on the forum - is how to change the LH battery. Firstly do you need a VAG-Com to reset everything post the change - or is that just a luxury?
Secondly looking at the accommodation for it- looks like it's a tight fit and hard to get it out. Do we need to dismantle something?
Did I see something in a post about Feared's V10 that gave some insight into this? Must go back and have a look.
Regards
M


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Mike,
You don't need a VAG-COM but you will need some patience!
From memory the process is:
1) Disconnect +ve terminal on RHS battery
2) Disconnect -ve terminal on RHS battery
3) Repeat 1&2 for LHS battery
4) Unclip the fuse & relay box above the LHS battery from its mounting
5) Disconnect gas venting pipe from LHS battery
6) Unscrew battery retainer and unclip battery
7) Remove LHS battery
I'll see if can find the exact instructions for you.
As for my battery being original, it's a 70AH Varta battery which, since my production codes say the car was fitted with a 85AH battery makes me think it might have been replaced by the dreaded Previous Owner! I was thinking of replacing it with a Bosch 95AH battery (the second battery on this list http://www.boschautoparts.co.u...6.pdf)
Harry


_Modified by Prince Ludwig at 2:13 PM 1-21-2010_


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

Thanks - sounds like the sort of info that an electrical engineer should have to hand... so I'll be incomplete without it!
Regards
M


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*An interesting note about the comfort battery...*

Visited the one and only Phaeton tech in Stockholm the other day. I sort of semi-complained about the state of the battery, and he explained that a TDI with the "ignition" on and engine off will suck about 30A. That's a massive number!
So, always connect something while doing work that requires the ignition to be on...


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

I replaced my original battery (date stamp 09-2004) with that BOSCH S6 AGM which Harry is referring to. Paid 199 euros locally. Not exactly cheap, but one of the most reasonably priced quality AGM batteries of this size.
The BOSCH has 95 Ah capacity, +10 Ah from the original. The "original" battery in my car was from VARTA. It had Varta labels all over it, the only "VW OEM" identification was that there was a melt stamp "VW AG" near battery pole. Bosch and Varta batteries are from a same manufacturer, but not necessarily from the same factory. Vartas tend to be a bit more expensive. What was interesting is, that comparing the two batteries side by side revealed that the batteries are exactly identical in shape and form. Clearly from the same mould. Original Varta was black, where the Bosch is silver.
The new BOSCH has worked flawlessly and all the annonying electric gremlins are gone. Oh well, they came back this weekend and now I've got a charger hooked up to it. It is too much for the battery to sustain a charge as I tend to use Webasto for 30min - twice a day - with only 15 min commute. I need to charge the battery every few weeks.
Beware: replacing the comfort battery is one of the most unpleasant jobs with the car! I literally broke my back and got wounds in my hands trying to battle the fuse box out of the way... Did not give up - so it was a success after all - but would hate to do that kind of repair work for living, that's for sure! There are very good instructions (by Michael) with photos showing the same thing what Harry correctly explained. That thread is somewhere in this BB. I recall that the thread was not exactly battery related: I think it was about replacing the battery controller.
Knowing that disconnecting the battery means that you will need to adapt all moving parts (windows, seats, sunroof) I kind of cheated: I hooked my charger (a CTEK clone) to the thick battery wires, parallel with the battery, and set it to a constant 13.6V source mode. This way I got the battery out and disconnected but the car still got the "juice" it needed to keep all settings in memory. I do not recommend that procedure for anyone, as you need to ensure that the battery wires (loose, with power in them) do not touch the car body. Also, there may be a risk in feeding current directly into the car's circuitry. Not all chargers are "intelligent enough" to ensure that there is no voltage spike at the moment you disconnect the battery. Anyway, it worked well for me and car did not need any readaptation.
Jouko


_Modified by jkuisma at 3:40 AM 1-23-2010_


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (jkuisma)*

Dear Jouko -thanks for that information. I've found the link to the appropriate thread - and again thanks to Michael for such marvellous documentation. The info on how to get the battery out is down the bottom of the thread.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2020343
I think this must be the thread that Harry had in mind too.
Thanks also to Per for pointing out the standing drain on the battery with the ignition on. 30A is a considerable drain. I hadn't really thought about it. I've now craned my neck and squinted to see that the capacity of this battery is 85Ah. At 30A, it won't last long - it certainly won't do, I wouldn't have thought, 85Ah at 30A. Unless things have changed, the 85Ah figure is valid for 8.5A, but not higher currents. Need to read up on AGM to see if this is likely to be better or worse than standard flooded cell...
Anyone know where all this juice is going? I can imagine that there is:
Infotainment
General Electronics
AC fan
Fuel pump
That lot doesn't sound like 30A
But add in seat heating, window heating, windscreen wiper area heater, mirror heaters and you'll be there in no time.
Is there also a 12V compressor for the air the car needs?
But given that an average drain might be 30A, then I'm much more relaxed about battery performanc, and the need to provide auxiliary charging from time to time.
Fascinating stuff!
Regards
Mike


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (jkuisma)*

You can try one of these devices http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...Tools to save all memory functions. I just included this link to display the item; you should be able to purchase it at NAPA or other auto parts stores.
On a Phaeton you should not have to leave the ignition on when you use this as the 12 v. lighter/power point is on all the time.
I have not tried this on a Phaeton (not yet having to change the battery), but it works on other cars. Often you have to leave the ignition in the accessory position to maintain a live connection to the power point.
Steven


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (car_guy)*

I didn't try this myself, but I seem to remember that on a Phaeton, you can remove the left battery without losing the settings provided you don't remove the right battery at the same time.
P.


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*Re: (n968412L)*

The battery performance is good anyway. Consider this: I sent my production codes through the database and two items stand out...
J2A = Battery 330 A (61 Ah) and battery 480 A (85 Ah)
8GH = Alternator 190 A
And this is for the V6 TDI, the smallest engine of them all. How's that? 190A alternator! It's liquid cooled as well...


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: (perfrej)*

Sounds like it would need to be all of that!
I wonder how much all the heating takes... the heated seats really get hot and get hot quick.. 
One other gem I only found by ferreting around with the LH battery is the 12V power socket just above it and forward. Really impressed with how it springs out when pressed, and then retracts again!
Regards
M


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

*Re: (Zaphh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zaphh* »_I didn't try this myself, but I seem to remember that on a Phaeton, you can remove the left battery without losing the settings provided you don't remove the right battery at the same time.

Yep, I've seen the same reported on the forum. On the other hand, the workshop manual has pretty detailed instructions on how one should always disconnect the starter battery first, and only then disconnect the left battery. It warns about the starter battery pyrotechnic disconnect, which "may go off" if the disconnect sequence is not followed as per the manual. I doubt there is a big chance for that to happen. But if done by the book, you would need to re-adapt everything after replacing battery.
Jouko 


_Modified by jkuisma at 9:11 AM 1-23-2010_


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## mrhavis (May 1, 2010)

I purchased the NAPA battery maintainer, and I see how to attach it inside the trunk.

There is a light that goes on in the trunk when the trunk lid is open. Will that drain the battery at all? Can the light be turned off? Does this matter?

Thanks -

Mike


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hello Mike:

The trunk lights will turn off on their own after about 15 minutes if nothing else is touched.

If the battery maintainer is connected to the battery and plugged into the household power supply, it will supply enough power to both charge the battery and power the trunk light.

Or, you could do what I do, which is to just lay the battery maintainer cable flat over the trunk aperture, then, close the trunk lid over the cable. The foam seal around the trunk lid itself will deform slightly and the cable will not be damaged. Just be sure to not forget about the thing the next day and drive away while it is still plugged in!

Michael


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## mrhavis (May 1, 2010)

Thank you Michael for your reply -

I noticed that the lights did finally go out. 

After having the maintainer plugged in, I unplugged it to reposition it and then plugged it in again. When I unplugged it - the brake lights flashed once. Does that mean anything?

My car is backed into the garage - it would not be hard for me to just get in and drive off with the maintainer still attached. I am glad that you mentioned it.

Mike


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

*Battery voltages*

Because the weather is below zero since a month I thought it would be a healthy idea to charge the batteries of my car. Although my AGM battery is quite heavy (95 Ah), it barely gets the chance to be fully charged, especially due to daily use of the stand heater (which is awesome by the way), however may have been the cause of some recurring errors I got with VAG-COM. All of these errors referred to low battery voltage.
Armed with a new smart charger (similar to CTEK), 5.3 Amp 12V/6V (6 Volt being handy for my BMW R25 motorcycle), I decided to add some science to the charging ceremony by measuring the voltages of the different batteries prior and after charging. Before charging, my LH battery was showing 11.95 Volts on a (calibrated) DVM. I connected the charger, closed the lid and opened it 3 hours later to see the status. Still charging. Next morning, about 14 hours later, I opened the lid and noticed the charger indicating “charged”. Voltage with charger still on: 14.195 Volts which quickly dropped to below 14 after disconnecting the charger.
Because I concluded from previous posts that the relay which connect both batteries only is active during emergency start, I decided to hook up the charger to the booster terminals to charge the starter battery separately. Within a few seconds after the switching on the charger, it indicated “charged”. I repeated this procedure with again the same result. The DVM indicated 14.195 Volts as well. _So I think that the Phaeton actually activates the relay to parallel the two batteries._ 
_Edit: This is incorrect. The truth is that the starter battery barely gets discharged and will be immediately charged after the engine is started successfully, by the LH battery and the battery charge monitor controller._
Mysterious but ingenious. Main conclusion is that there is no need to separately charge the charger battery. All you need to do is to connect a charger with sufficient Ah rate to the LH battery and be patient for about half a day or night.

Next experiment I did was with the engine running. I wanted to check the ability of the car to charge the battery so I measured again after starting. This time, the voltage at the starter battery was between 15 and 15.2 Volts, which is normal when there is little electric load. I played a bit with the gas throttle to see what happens then. Same result. Meanwhile, I noticed that the voltmeter on the dash indicated about 13.5 Volts, sometimes indicating half way 13.5 and 14. I would say it indicates 13.7 when the DVM indicates 15.2 Volts.

This perhaps connects to another mystery I encountered. When I removed the red cover from the post under the hood, I noticed that there are two conductors, embedded in plastic. One of them connects to the post. The other, apparently not connecting to anything that makes sense, really made me curious. So I measured its voltage: about 13.5 to 13.7 Volts with engine on. Checking its voltage with the voltmeter in the dash, I noticed both readings were moving up and down following the same pattern. I think I will repeat this measurement another time with the ignition on and the engine off. I want to know the purpose of this additional conductor and how to interprete the voltmeter on the dash, so it more or less can be used to diagnose the condition of the batteries. Any suggestions?
_Edit: It turned out to be junction TV22, the function of which is discussed HERE_

Willem


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Dear Willelm - I too have been perplexed by voltages. I can't remember exact numbers - but when charging the LH battery with my CTEK charger, a DVM indicates about 14V at the battery. If I turn the ignition on the voltmeter shows nearer 12 (from memory)..... so what is it measuring? Clearly when the engine is running, the dash voltmeter shows 14V... same as DVM at the battery.

Not sure I believe there's 1V+ of volt drop between battery and voltmeter with just the ignition on... because although there is a hefty drain.... if I unhook the CTEK you'd expect the battery voltmeter to sink along with the battery volts... but it doesn't seem to....

Confused!


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

n968412L said:


> Clearly when the engine is running, the dash voltmeter shows 14V... same as DVM at the battery.


Hello Mike, nice to see you back again.

I actually measured >15 Volts with the DVM (with the engine running) while the dash voltmeter was hovering around 13.5 to 13.7. However, I measured 13.7 on a little metal conductor next to the conductor which leads to the jump start post. It is visible when you remove the red plastic cap. I have no idea why the designers of the car would add such a little conductor, but I can only suspect that it is there to verify some voltage (regulated perhaps) with a calibrated DVM in the factory.
I wouldn’t be surprised when the dash voltmeter actually is fed by a D/A converter, using the digital value as available on the CAN bus. I will check with my VAG-COM tomorrow.
Just an hour ago, while I was trying to figure out something else, I kept an eye on the dash voltmeter with just the ignition on. It slowly decreased down to 11.5 Volts, when the display in the dash gave a message that the car had shut down some electrical things. A month ago, the voltmeter even went down below 10 Volts. Any battery with such a voltage is practically dead. Just like you, I’m very confused and eager to solve this mystery!


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

WillemBal said:


> Hello Mike, nice to see you back again.
> 
> 
> I wouldn’t be surprised when the dash voltmeter actually is fed by a D/A converter, using the digital value as available on the CAN bus. I will check with my VAG-COM tomorrow.


Aha - I never thought of that... but I bet you're right! Let me know. Agree with your other observations... but can't add anything. Sorry!

Regards

Mike


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## apper01 (Aug 14, 2010)

hi wllem, 

about the parallell charging: i first charged the right battery which took 5 minutes before the green light came on, then the left one which took 2 hours. 

does the relais only work in one direction? or only when connected to the battery terminals in the motor compartment? 

regards 
aart


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

apper01 said:


> does the relais only work in one direction? or only when connected to the battery terminals in the motor compartment?


 Hello Aart, 
The "battery terminals in the motor compartment" are actually intended for jump starting and are directly wired via a wire junction with the RH battery in the boot. It is called the auxiliary battery, only used for starting. The relay is normally not activated during starting, except when the internal diagnosis decides that the battery is too weak and needs help from the LH battery. 
The car's generator (alternator) directly feeds into the RH battery through a rectifier/regulator and a 300A fuse. So you may conclude that during driving, the aux battery (RH) will be charged always. The relay is driven by the battery monitoring & control module, so whether or not the LH battery (the big one) will be charged, depends on whatever is programmed in the battery control module. 

Whether the relay is activated when you connect the charger to the post under the hood, I don't thinks so, based on your observation that it took only 5 minutes to fully charge that one while the LH battery took 2 hours when you connected the charger to that on. On the other hand, it is possible that the relay is activated when you charge the LH battery after it has reached a certain charge. I'm not sure of that, because the battery control module then needs to be activated, including diagnosis and all that, which would be conflicting with the purpose of charging the batteries.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Willem:

Be aware that there was a technical bulletin promulgated in both North America and the Rest of the World mandating replacement of any battery controllers (controller 71) with a letter suffix of 'A' or 'B'. These were fitted to MY 2003 and 2004 Phaetons.

These particular controllers did not do a good job of allocating the recharging current between the two batteries. The replacement controllers, which have a letter suffix of 'C' or greater after the part number, solved quite a number of problems.

For further reading, see here: 

Electrical Problems (includes TB 27-06-02, RVU, Campaign OH)
J367 Battery Monitoring Controller – how to replace (Includes RVU TB 27-06-02)

Michael


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*General about AGM*

Folks! 

From a Holiday Inn bed with some morning internet browsing on the laptop, I thought I'd share some thoughts about batteries in general. 

Lead-acid batteries are probably the most mis-understood and abused products on the market. So, consider the following for trivia: 

A fully charged battery should have an open circuit voltage (that is UNLOADED, like disconnected) of 12.8V. A battery can be slightly over-charged and yield about an extra five percent if it is in good condition. 

A normal battery should be considered, and is, fully discharged when the open circuit voltage is around 11.8 to 12.0V. How many people on the planet do you think have happened to deep discharge their batteries without knowing it? "11 Volts? Heck, there's still some juice left for the TV"... 

AGM batteries (absorbant glass mat) come in two flavours: standard and purer lead. AGM was designed for military applications with high temperatures and vibrations. The type has a higher power density than standard lead-acid batteries. 

AGM needs a little higher charge voltage due to the slightly higher acid concentration. Typical charge voltages are: 

LA - 14.4 V 
AGM - 14.4 - 14.7 V 
AGM pure lead - 14.7 V 

AGM batteries can be charged at about 25% of their rated current, LA at about 12%. This is, however not recemmended  

If you over-charge an AGM, the water will disspate out of the electrolyte and thus leave the glass mat. Water can not be replaced, so battery is damaged permanently. Over charging is avoided by using proper charges (CTEK and the likes) and in-vehicle devices that have the same functionality. An AGM in your '67 Camaro with the standard alternator fitted in those days would probably fry one of the first days of use. 

For us with Phaetons 
============== 

My meter in the dash always reads 14V with the engine on. If it wouldn't, I would be suspicious as to the condition of the battery. 

The Phaeton battery controller will ask you to shut down if you run down the battery far enough (like if you're VCDS:ing without the engine running). Please follow that suggestion or you may deep discharge your battery and shorten its life span. 

I haven't checked whether the batteries used as originals are pure lead versions, but if they are, the charge voltage at the batery itself should be 14.7 V, not just 14.4. Anyone done this with a car that has a fresh battery and has been running for an hour or so? 

If the Phaeton delivers 14.7 volts for charging, we should look into Optima batteries. They are pure lead and have a cylindrical glass mat and plate design that is extremely efficient and sturdy. Optima pioneered the commercial side of AGM batteries in the 80's and are still among the best you can get. 



I guess it's time for breakfast, but I have more on this... 

/per


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

perfrej said:


> My meter in the dash always reads 14V with the engine on...


 Per:

Don't attach too much credibility to the readings provided by the electrical and temperature gauges in the instrument cluster. VW 'normalizes' the displayed readings from those small gauges so that the gauge always displays a nominal value (e.g. 14 volts, or 90°C temperature) if the actual value falls within the acceptable range for stabilized engine operation.

If you want to see the EXACT instantaneous value, you need to look at a measured value block. The MVBs for bus voltage, oil pressure, coolant temperature and other values displayed on the instrument cluster gauges are available from just about all of the controllers that might ever have anything to do with that particular measurement.

Michael


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*Hmmm...*



PanEuropean said:


> Per:
> 
> Don't attach too much credibility to the readings provided by the electrical and temperature gauges in the instrument cluster. VW 'normalizes' the displayed readings from those small gauges so that the gauge always displays a nominal value (e.g. 14 volts, or 90°C temperature) if the actual value falls within the acceptable range for stabilized engine operation.
> 
> ...


 Yes, I was expecting you to get to that. It is an interesting topic. When I have VCDS'd my car without the engine running, the guage is actually pretty much on the dot. When I start the car afterwards, it takes a while for the meter to reach 14 again. I need to look into this some more. Have there been any controller changes or software updates to those systems between 2006 and 2008? 

All the best, 

P


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Not that I am aware of. The electrical system was pretty much bullet-proof right out of the gate - the only known problem was the battery monitoring controller, and a technical bulletin was issued for that (mandating the replacement with a "C" suffix or higher controller).

Michael


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

The green light on my Napa charger doesn't do anything. It's supposed to flash or hold constant indicating whether it's charging or done. 

It flickered once when I connect the battery, then nothing... even 12 hours later. Anyone else recall having green light issues with their Napa charger?


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

PanEuropean said:


> Not that I am aware of. The electrical system was pretty much bullet-proof right out of the gate - the only known problem was the battery monitoring controller, and a technical bulletin was issued for that (mandating the replacement with a "C" suffix or higher controller).
> 
> Michael


 When I get home, which should be on Monday (LAX to Zürich should work ok) I will hook up my Taligent scope to the left battery and do some investigate measurements. 

Off topic: are you done with the ferry of the Otter? I love ferries and have done a number of them. New places, new airports, strange things etc. It's fun! 

/p


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Hi Per, 
I take it you're a Pilot too? 
You can't swing a dead AGM battery on this forum without hitting a pilot. We are attracted to complex, well-engineered "stuff" like fish to the ocean. 
I think we need to start an "are you an aviator" topic!


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

johnt26 said:


> Hi Per,
> I take it you're a Pilot too?
> You can't swing a dead AGM battery on this forum without hitting a pilot. We are attracted to complex, well-engineered "stuff" like fish to the ocean.
> I think we need to start an "are you an aviator" topic!


 Yes, indeed!

I am current on Bell 206, MD500 and EC-120 as a PPL.

/p


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

perfrej said:


> Yes, indeed!
> 
> I am current on Bell 206, MD500 and EC-120 as a PPL.
> 
> /p


 LAX to Zurich seems like it would be tiring in one of those 3, no?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Toronto to Zurich in a 767 (what I am doing tonight, as a passenger) is a heck of a lot easier than Vancouver to Zurich in a Twin Otter (what I did last week, as a driver - see here).

The only problem is that one I get to Zurich tomorrow morning, I have to get back in the Twin Otter and complete the second half of the ferry - to Greece, Egypt, Djibouti, Kenya, and onwards. But, at least it will be getting warmer along the way. 

Michael


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

johnt26 said:


> LAX to Zurich seems like it would be tiring in one of those 3, no?


 Haha! Yes it would. The longest I have done is Stockholm to London in a 206 of model year 1975. It does, however, sport full IFR and 3-axis autopilot (I should say full IFR minus dual generators - i.e. not certified) which makes the long straight hauls a little easier to cope with. 

/p


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

PanEuropean said:


> Toronto to Zurich in a 767 (what I am doing tonight, as a passenger) is a heck of a lot easier than Vancouver to Zurich in a Twin Otter (what I did last week, as a driver - see here).
> 
> The only problem is that one I get to Zurich tomorrow morning, I have to get back in the Twin Otter and complete the second half of the ferry - to Greece, Egypt, Djibouti, Kenya, and onwards. But, at least it will be getting warmer along the way.
> 
> Michael


 You and Per could have a GTG in Zurich!


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

*Car-diology*

I did some car-diology using the VAG-COM and a calibrated DVM. There are still some mysteries to be resolved and since my comfort battery was replaced in June 2009, I don't know what to suspect anymore. 

Below is the trend I made by logging the different voltages and the car RPM: 










I put some markers to explain what I did: 

*A: *With ignition on, I started VAG-COM logging (controller doesn't work with ign. off) 
*B: *After 2 minutes, I turned on the aux. heater. 
*C:* Around here, the car decided to turn off some electrical consumers. Time to... 
*D:* Start the engine, stationary running for a minute. Head lights on. 
*E:* Turned on seat heater. Next, turned on steering wheel heater. 
*F:* I turned of all heaters (aux, seat & steering wheel) 
*G:* Back home, stationary running 
*H:* Turned off engine, ignition still on. 
Logging stopped when ignition was shut off. 

Some conclusions: 
RH battery (starter) was fully charged (13.3 Volts after not being touched for 8 hours) 
Internal resistance (Ri) of starter (RH) battery seems perfect. Voltage drop = 0.85 Volts. Current is 150 A (assumingly). Then Ri is 0.0056 ohms. 
Convenience battery is in pretty poor charging conditions.  although only 18 month in use. Charge controller seems to function normally. 

I also calibrated the values which are measured by VAG-COM. The two main values are within +/- 0.02V of the true value, so all logged values are pretty accurate. The board voltmeter is always reading the same value as whatever is measured at the poles of the convenience battery. Therefore, I think it is pretty useful to evaluate the status of this battery. 
If anyone has comments or questions, just let me know. 

Willem


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Nice write-up. 
I am always evaluating my "comfort" battery in my boat. I have two starter batteries for the engines and generator and one very large deep-cycle house battery. I'm not an expert by any stretch but I have a good friend who worked for NASA for years and is an expert, so I try to learn from him. 
I am also into radio control aircraft so I have spent some time graphing discharge rates on Nicad and lately on Lipo batteries for the all electric craft, this stuff intrigues me. 
Unless I'm misreading this, your comfort battery, if it was resting, was around 10 percent charged. 
After your short ride it was about 25% charged if it was still resting. 

As you may know a resting lead acid battery that is 100% charged will be at about 12.6 volts. 
There is a good article at this link about charging and discharging lead acid batteries: 
http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_battery_charging_graphs.pdf 

So, I'm not sure why your starter battery would show so high unless it just stopped charging. 
The only way to truly check the comfort battery on a Phaeton is probably to disconnect it. Since as soon as you open a door or the trunk "stuff" comes on and stays on for a long time. 

I just opened the trunk on my car and checked voltage(it has a one month old comfort battery It was 12.3 but it wasn't resting because the trunk light was on, the Y24 screen and the radar detector was on all night ( I have to hardwire that dude) 
As soon as I opened the driver door the voltage went down to 12.1 volts immediately since the J523 screen came on and the cd changes and such. I'm not sure how long all that stuff stays on but I'll try to check it later after it goes back to sleep. 

If we make some WAGs: 
From the graph at that link assuming my battery was at about 90% charge (due to the low draw of the radar detector all night) then with the voltage at 12.1 (once I opened the door and everything came on) would indicate a discharge rate of 6 amps/hr (based on a capacity divided by 15 or C/15 discharge rate) if the battery is 92AH. Once the ignition is turned on and everything else comes on the draw is much higher. 
I'm sure that's why a charger must be connected to the vehicle when doing scan work, particularly if your DRL equipped. 
I turned on the ignition which dropped the voltage down to 11.9 which would indicate a C/4 discharge rate or 23 amps/hr. 
The above are truly WAGs since the discharge voltages may be different on an AGM...


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*LH low...*

Well, I would be concerned about the initially low voltage on the LH battery. The RH one is right at over 13V - they can be over-charged quite a lot and carry that charge unloaded. But under 12V on the LH? It would be interesting to attach measurements cables, let them hang out from the trunk, drive for half an hour and then shut down and measure without opening the trunk. Loads present should be close to nothing if the doors are left unlocked and the lights have gone out. At that point I would like to see at least 12.5V, preferably 13V. 

I will do that when I get home tuesday. 

/p


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

I wouldn't be too concerned about the initial low voltage if it was under load. 
Willem doesn't indicate what was on when the battery was first checked. 
Without the draw, the voltage is really meaningless. 

We need to put a shunt on the cable leading to the battery and get good amp draw numbers.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

johnt26 said:


> Unless I'm misreading this, your comfort battery, if it was resting, was around 10 percent charged.
> After your short ride it was about 25% charged if it was still resting.
> As you may know a resting lead acid battery that is 100% charged will be at about 12.6 volts.
> There is a good article at this link about charging and discharging lead acid batteries:
> http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_battery_charging_graphs.pdf


 Good information, John. This stuff intrigues me too. I also have various articles on charging behaviour, which mention a voltage of 12.9 V for 100% charged LA batteries at rest. 
According to the same info, I started with a 23% charged battery, and ended with 52% charged. When the battery would still be in "as new" condition, then about 27 Ah would have been added during that short trip. Charge rate would then have been 218 A, which is of course impossible. 
As you mentioned, there are a lot of factors, including temperature, the load (with ignition on, this can be a lot) etc. all have a lot of effect on the measurements and make calculations inconclusive. 



johnt26 said:


> So, I'm not sure why your starter battery would show so high unless it just stopped charging.


 It had been resting for 8 hours. This is what I did: 
I entered the car with a fully booted laptop. 
I connected the VAG-COM cable, to the car, next to the laptop. 
I launched VAG-COM and waited for its initial screen. 
Next, I selected the charger module on VAG-COM (no autoscan), then pressed the ignition button. 
Next, I selected the logging function and launched it. All together this took 2 minutes after entering the car. But you are absolutely right, a lot of things were already pulling current by that time. 

Just an assumption, but perhaps the controller converts some of the LH charge to keep the RH battery charged 100% all of the times. 
Another theoretical assumption: when the acid concentration increases (due to evaporation of water), the SG increases. With higher SG's, higher voltages are possible. (The AGM battery for instance, has an SG of 1.3 when fully charged and the charge voltage is also higher). 

I will get back to this later, but my wife is calling me for specific duties....:banghead:


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

perfrej said:


> It would be interesting to attach measurements cables, let them hang out from the trunk, drive for half an hour and then shut down and measure without opening the trunk.


 Good idea! Add a fox tail at the end of these wires and it will give your Phaeton a really special look! 

Would you be able to measure the current, flowing in and out the battery, as well? Seems pretty hard to do.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

johnt26 said:


> I wouldn't be too concerned about the initial low voltage if it was under load.
> Willem doesn't indicate what was on when the battery was first checked.
> Without the draw, the voltage is really meaningless.
> We need to put a *shunt on the cable *leading to the battery and get good amp draw numbers.


John, a friend of mine made a shunt from a strip of stainless steel plate which he placed in series with his battery. He calibrated the shunt by applying a current of 10 Amps and looked with his DVM test pins where the voltage drop was exactly 100 milliVolts. Thus, he could measure the current without too much voltage drop. Good and cheap method, but I hate to mess around like that in this confined battery compartment space. Wouldn't it be easier to use a "natural" shunt, such as the main plus conductor going from the battery all the way to the front fuse box?


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

WillemBal said:


> John, a friend of mine made a shunt from a strip of stainless steel plate which he placed in series with his battery. He calibrated the shunt by applying a current of 10 Amps and looked with his DVM test pins where the voltage drop was exactly 100 milliVolts. Thus, he could measure the current without too much voltage drop. Good and cheap method, but I hate to mess around like that in this confined battery compartment space. Wouldn't it be easier to use a "natural" shunt, such as the main plus conductor going from the battery all the way to the front fuse box?


I need to make one of those. It's a great idea, and we could get comparative numbers between different model years and controller configurations. Keeping it to 100 mV is OK, but I would like to try an even lower drop, say 50 or 10 mV, to make sure that all other systems are not being affected. With short leads to the DVM readings should be accurate enough given the quality of modern DVMs.

Maybe we should all have an amp-meter on the hood like the Daytona guys' RPM guages...


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*Explosives?*

Hmmm...

Just read up on the Phaeton electrical systems. There is mention of the fact that the battery terminals have explosive separation thingies that disconnects the batteries in case of a crash. Apparently, this is controlled by the airbag trigger electronics. Maybe we should exercise some caution when fiddling with the battery terminals, eh?

/p


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

perfrej said:


> Apparently, this is controlled by the airbag trigger electronics. Maybe we should exercise some caution when fiddling with the battery terminals, eh?


There's only one explosive terminal and it's on the positive terminal of the right hand side battery. I usually disconnect the negative terminals if I need to unplug stuff and so far haven't had any explosions! 

Harry


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## MichaelGa (Dec 1, 2009)

Auzivision said:


> The green light on my Napa charger doesn't do anything. It's supposed to flash or hold constant indicating whether it's charging or done.
> 
> It flickered once when I connect the battery, then nothing... even 12 hours later. Anyone else recall having green light issues with their Napa charger?


Similar situation. I once had the green light intermittent which I believe is "maintaining mode" I've never had the green light come back on after that. After 12 hours or so the orange charging light is still there. Maybe my battery is reaching the end of its life?


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## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

*I have one of these and never used it..*

I have one of these Napa maintainers and have never used it on my Phaeton.. It's in the trunk though.. I know my battery is at the end of it's life.. When I bought the car just over 2 years ago now.. When I first entered the car "Please start engine." appeared in the instrument cluster.. I've had weird things happen: certain buttons not working, car turns off infotainment, or resources to "save itself".. My tech says the battery does need to be changed, I'll have that done during the 70,000 maintenance in March or April of this year... 

I have the original battery that was shipped with the car 2003 battery, IIRC..


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

Auzivision said:


> The green light on my Napa charger doesn't do anything. It's supposed to flash or hold constant indicating whether it's charging or done.
> 
> It flickered once when I connect the battery, then nothing... even 12 hours later. Anyone else recall having green light issues with their Napa charger?


Follow up to my own post. When hooked up to a partially depleted battery no green light, not initially or 12 hours later. After twelve hours, if I disconnect and reconnect charger the green light holds steady. Looks like the charger is about a quirky as the car… doesn’t exhibit this behavior for other batteries.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Auzivision said:


> Looks like the charger is about a quirky as the car… doesn’t exhibit this behavior for other batteries.


The only battery that might need charging is the LH battery, the big one, which is an AGM battery. The RH battery is always full as it is only used for charging and then charged within couple of minutes with the engine on. The NAPA charger has two positions, the right position is for AGM. Just make sure that you have set that switch set to the right.
Success, Willem


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

perfrej said:


> I need to make one of those. It's a great idea, and we could get comparative numbers between different model years and controller configurations. Keeping it to 100 mV is OK, but I would like to try an even lower drop, say 50 or 10 mV, to make sure that all other systems are not being affected. With short leads to the DVM readings should be accurate enough given the quality of modern DVMs. we should all have an amp-meter on the hood like the Daytona guys' RPM guages...


Hi Per, did you make any progress with the shunt? I guess you can go down to a 0.001 ohm shunt, but your DVM needs to have a 100 mV range then, with five digits preferrably.



perfrej said:


> Maybe we should all have an amp-meter on the hood like the Daytona guys' RPM guages...


It should be offered by VW as standard tooling! Actually, my company had a clamp-on DC/AC current meter on the wish list for some time for specific verifications in electronics circuitries. It has now been ordered! I will get this one right away of course and see how it can help to shed light on some unsolved battery mysteries.
Willem


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

WillemBal said:


> Hi Per, did you make any progress with the shunt? I guess you can go down to a 0.001 ohm shunt, but your DVM needs to have a 100 mV range then, with five digits preferrably.
> 
> 
> Willem


Waiting for my friend, who's on the North Sea oil fields right now, to come back. He has the stuff that I need, like a calibrated HP DVM...


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

WillemBal said:


> The only battery that might need charging is the LH battery, the big one, which is an AGM battery. The RH battery is always full as it is only used for charging and then charged within couple of minutes with the engine on. The NAPA charger has two positions, the right position is for AGM. Just make sure that you have set that switch set to the right.
> Success, Willem


The only battery in the Phaeton I connected the charger to is on the driver’s side and I did have the switch set to AGM. Yesterday, with the switch in the other position, I charged up my truck battery. The green light was blinking last night and solid green this morning… just like it should be. Still not sure why it doesn't do this with the Phaeton.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Auzivision said:


> Follow up to my own post. When hooked up to a partially depleted battery no green light, not initially or 12 hours later. After twelve hours, if I disconnect and reconnect charger the green light holds steady. Looks like the charger is about a quirky as the car… doesn’t exhibit this behavior for other batteries.


I had a similar situation yesterday, while doing some measurements. It turned out that the rubber cover of the positive battery terminal was kind of preventing the clamp to make proper contact. It seems you have a simple connection problem. If you have a DVM, just measure the voltage on the clamps and then on the battery terminals. There should be no difference.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

*Voltage and current measurements*

At last, I did some extensive measurements with two DMM's and a clamp-on current meter. I could quite easy hook up the Fluke clamp-on meter, which converts the current into 100 mV per Ampere.
The results are quite interesting, but I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to start a new thread since this one is all about Napa and other charger problems.
Anyway, here the most interesting results:


When the car is parked with the alarm turned on, it is consuming a current of only 38 mA, with occasional recurring peaks of 100 mA. This situation occurs about 1 minute after locking the car, during which the drain reduces gradually from 3 A down to this quiescent current.
When you turn on the heater with the remote, a short peak current will occur of 38A, after a few seconds this will come down to 15 Amps, after one minute to 12 Amps, then stick around 10 Amps for the remaining period (15 minutes) that it is working. So per heating cycle, battery drain is only 3 Ah.
Sitting in the car with ignition on and all lights off will cost you about 23.5 A drain.
Turn on the lights, and the battery drain increases to 32 A
Igniting the car creates a positive spike of 37A. Then quickly this reverses in a charge current of 36 A.
Charge current is hovering around 8 A. With extremes going to 22 A and a discharge current of 3.8A.
Lights on or off or switching on seat heater does not change the current rate pattern.

Should we make a new thread about this scientific stuff?

Willem


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Nice work Willem.
I assumed the Phaeton used some serious juice when not running, thanks for confirming that with actual numbers.
It is easy to see why a tired left "comfort" battery can cause so many issues!


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## fdtinc (Dec 31, 2010)

*Napa green light clarification*

Auzivision wrote:
"The green light ... [is] supposed to flash or hold constant indicating whether it's charging or done."

MichaelGa wrote:
"I once had the green light intermittent which I believe is "maintaining mode" ...
After 12 hours or so the orange charging light is still there. "

Having just bought this Napa unit, and used it recently, some clarification to the above comments, based on the manual for the unit and in-use observation:

The orange light is NOT a charging indicator. It is only to show that the charger is connected to an outlet, ie. that it is receiving power. 

The green light does NOT have just two indication stages, it has THREE:
green light off: 
the battery is being charged
green constant on: 
the battery is approaching full charge or is fully charged. At this point the charger has automatically powered down to less current being supplied.
green flashing: 
the charger has detected a slight drop in battery charge, and is resupplying a small amoung to bring back to full charge.
MichaelGa is right here, that is the maintain mode.

This was observed in operation:
After plug in (fully connected), only the orange light is on.
About four hours later, still only orange light on.
Next morning, light is flashing, sequence is not very rapid.
Opening the car, turning on a few systems, green light came back on solid (recharging), then returned to intermittent.

I don't believe the battery was very low, so that the full charge did not take 12 hours, BUT the management must have started with the load shedding sequence. Prior to hook up, none of the trunk lights were functioning, and curiously, the red light in the trunk-close button was also not working. (The car had sat undriven for about 10 days, but with rel. frequent open and closings etc.)

After the charge, all trunk lights and trunk close button light working again.
(Question: because those two systems mentioned appear so minor, would that be about the very beginning of the load shedding process?)

The Napa unit is fully automatic, and does appear to be have the trickle charge option (maintain mode). 
To address Michael's concern about prolongued connection, I didn't see anything in the manual about leaving it connected for a longer period, so who knows?

If anyone is interested, I can supply the manual's description of the actual charge / maintain/ re-charge process used.

Hope that helps!


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

Interesting and makes sense…. I thought the Napa charger only had two modes. Thanks for the clarification.

Anyhow, my auxiliary battery must have been lower than other times I’ve used the charger. Normally, I'm used to seeing a flashing green (assumed it was charging) followed by a solid green (assumed it was done). Ironically, the last time I tried this on the Phaeton it worked like I’m used to seeing leading me to believe the time before it was much lower and hence no green light at all.

I’ll have to double check the negative post, but I believe my battery is roughly 7 years old now. It’s on my short list to replace when I have some free time.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note:*

Here's a link to a post that discusses replacement of the batteries when they reach end of life (typically about 5 years), and provides the specifications for a replacement battery:

Need help determining correct battery specification.

Michael


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

Looks like I might finally be due (more like over due) for a new battery. The post indicates it's 05, so 6+ years isn't bad. 

Thanks for the link!


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## J24Alpha (Apr 6, 2012)

*Phaeton often fails to start on first attempt*

I have an '04 8 Phaeton. Frequently when I first turn on the key nothing happens, screens are blank and the key is locked in place. When I turn the key to "off" and then to the right a seecond time the car starts immediately. Local VW dealer has tried many times to correct this with no results. 

On reading ther many posts here I sense others may have had a similar issue. Any help will be appreciated. Many thanks. 

Gene


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Gene.. I'm not sure I can help... but first impression is that it's a flat battery and you're actually using the emergency start procedure? 

Two points... first is this might be way off beam... 
Second - I now have to confess to being confused about the emergency start facility. 

I assume it's to cater for a flat starter (ie RH) battery? This is a pretty fundamental assumption... and I'd like someone to say if that's right or not. 

Or... is it a facility to cater for flat convenience (LH) battery - ie to power up the car and then start it from a healthy starter battery? 

Or does it do both, dependent on which battery is flat? 

I had assumed the first of these.. but a recent experience has led me to question this. 

A couple of us had a LH battery changing party in February (Realist 42 Johan and I - assisted by Harry). We both have GP0 cars. In both cases both LH and RH batteries were disconnected, LH battery replaced and all reconnected. The symptoms following this were as follows: 

Interior lights etc came back on and all normal electrical things you'd expect looked OK. However on putting the key in the ignition and turning to the on position, although my memory is that normal warning lights came on, I am 100% certain that the voltmeter did not move off its bottom stop. Also the car would not start. No reaction from anything when key turned to the right. A turn of the key all the way to the left and then back to the cranking position started the car immediately and the voltmeter bounced up to 14V. 

Does this sound entirely normal and expected - and what does it mean? Both GP0 cars behaved the same way. 

So... if anyone else out there would like to shed any light - both on my confusion and on Gene's problem, that would be great! 

Regards 

M 

ps - below is a diagram that Michael Moore posted some time ago which has always fascinated me... just wish I fully understood it!


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## tomasty (May 24, 2011)

Hi guys, 

I am planning to get a battery charger for my Phaeton, but in the mean time, I also have a 2011 Golf and a 2011 Mercedes C-class, anybody knows the Napa battery charger mentioned in this tread, will it work for the Golf and Mercedes as well? 

I heard lots of people saying good things about this CTEK one, will it work? 
http://www.amazon.com/CTEK-Multi-70..._1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1294601791&sr=1-1 

Napa Charger 
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NBC85323A_0006389653 

Thanks in advance! 

Tomas


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

I have a CTEK and it is great. It will intelligently charge the battery of any car (including the Phaeton) and even revive some. 

P.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

Since CTEK has come out with some new tech. What do you guys think?

http://smartercharger.com/products/batterychargers/ctek-multi-us-7002/

or the new and cheaper, possibly smarter due to knowing if the battery can retain charge or not.

http://smartercharger.com/products/batterychargers/ctek-multi-us-4-3/

at half the price, I'm leaning towards the 4.3 over the 7002. Thoughts? Considering the 7002 specifically says its great for dual battery systems.


Jordan


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

No takers? Anyone with some battery knowledge wanna shed some light on the differences between these modules?


Jordan


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Well... looking at the two links you provide both specifically state that they cope with AGM batteries... so I don't see why the cheaper one won't be OK.

I have a 7.0 - which looks like the same as the US 7002 - the UK4.3 doesn't seem to have a direct equivalent in the UK - although it looks very similar to some of the other units CTEK do offer.

I can't remember now why I opted for the 7.0... i think it was having a higher power rating to help being able to have the ignition on for long periods without the engine running for doing scans etc... but in practice even 7A isn't enough.... so I'd probably be thinking about a cheaper option if I had to change it....

Good luck

M


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

Gotcha, well then I would say if 7a isn't really good enough. Then their 25a pro charger should be plenty. Its only 300 which is a good chunk of money but compared to the cost of the Phaeton and the care that we give them, Its a reasonable cost IMHO. I think I'll save just a bit more and go for the top of the line and call it a day. Here is the direct link for you guys to see. 

http://smartercharger.com/products/batterychargers/ctek-multi-us-25000/



Jordan


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ordered both the 4.3 and 7001. Testing both now. So far I really like both of them, might just come down to the 7 having 7amps instead of 4.3 for a boost in performance. Fantastic operation though.


Jordan


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

I took a look at the specs and features of the CTEK battery chargers... Their technology is great and is a proper type of charger for most people but they are overpriced and not unique to them only.

Their charging technology is widely used it is just that they explained it a bit more detail and more of a oohs and aaahs. There are many companies who has same features as CTEK and more plain looking.

At 7.3A 12V and in a small package... I wondered about their heat dissipation... that's a lot of power for small package.

To maintain battery, you need like 1.25A for most cars... having extra is good and keeps the charger last longer.... they don't have to work so hard. 3A is about all most people needs to maintain battery.

Charging a battery... like a rundown but not dead battery, you do need higher amperage... the higher the amperage, the faster it can charge your battery. Even though CTEK can do it... I would not use that... you could burn out the charger. Just look at more average battery charger... even electronic one... the bigger the power it can charge, the larger the unit... it is about the size of transformer provided and some heat dissipation.

I would not buy the old type magnetic charger... those heavy and large charger... they are best used for regular battery.


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

I may agree with you more if companies like Aston-Marton and Ferrari didn't sell their vehicles with relabeled Ctek chargers as standard boot equipment. That says plenty enough for me to buy one  It does get hot, but I just finished a deep cycle on my LH battery and it didn't get too hot to hold in my hand. For all the jerry rig and DIY battery chargers I saw all over the web......no thanks, I dish out the cash to match the Phaeton. It looks like something that would come standard right next to the spare tire.


Jordan


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

I didn't realize how many car manufacturers sells their relabeled charger. CTEK does have a good warranty... 5 years... which is great and from Amazon's reviews... sounds good. Amazon does have a much better price there... so I bought the 4.3... which fits my arsenal well without overlapping too much. I have other SLA batteries to charge and 7002 is too powerful for them.


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ahhh very nice, I didn't think to look on Amazon... Don't know how that slipped my mind haha. Glad someone found a good price  Yeah like i said, so far I am very pleased with it. The phaeton is definitely happier with full batteries.



Jordan.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

A certain marque of twin-battery W12 car has a very familiar-looking accessory charger.

Chris









image via preloved.co.uk


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

Paximus said:


> A certain marque of twin-battery W12 car has a very familiar-looking accessory charger.
> 
> Chris
> 
> ...


Yes, very nice! Thats the 7002 model that I just purchased 


Jordan


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> A certain marque of twin-battery W12 car has a very familiar-looking accessory charger.
> 
> Chris


But what is the plug on the 12V end....?


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I believe that if the car did not come with one from the factory, the kit includes a socket to mount in the trunk lining which matches that plug.

If you want one, the charger together with the plug/socket is around $500 from any good Bentley dealer.

Chris










Image (c) eBay.com via Miller MotorCars, Inc., Bentley Dealers of Greenwich. Reproduced 
under permitted personal study rights. All rights reserved. Original here


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Paximus said:


> I believe that if the car did not come with one from the factory, the kit includes a socket to mount in the trunk lining which matches that plug.
> 
> If you want one, the charger together with the plug/socket is around $500 from any good Bentley dealer.
> 
> Chris


I do have something similar, courtesy of CTEK for about £7. I guess the Bentley one is a tad more sophisticated... but mine is very functional.


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

n968412L said:


> I do have something similar, courtesy of CTEK for about £7. I guess the Bentley one is a tad more sophisticated... but mine is very functional.


Seeing this makes me want to mount it into the cover maybe. I just have mind going out the bottom seem.


Jordan.


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi Jordan - CTEK do do a panel mount version (which also has the attraction of an in line fuse (although easy to fit anyway) - but I didn't fancy cutting the panel - really thinking about if I ever sell the car....



However... I'm now wondering if I've been too cheapskate even by my standards!

Regards
M


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

n968412L said:


> Hi Jordan - CTEK do do a panel mount version (which also has the attraction of an in line fuse (although easy to fit anyway) - but I didn't fancy cutting the panel - really thinking about if I ever sell the car....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely! I do have one of those parts. I need to pick up another one for the starter side. I am definitely going to do this mod  Now just to decide if I want to mount it in the door/panel or maybe just under the trunk courtesy lights.... I think I just answered myself  (under the lights it is)



Jordan


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

EurodriverMK3 said:


> Absolutely! I do have one of those parts. I need to pick up another one for the starter side. I am definitely going to do this mod  Now just to decide if I want to mount it in the door/panel or maybe just under the trunk courtesy lights.... I think I just answered myself  (under the lights it is)
> 
> Jordan


RH battery... I've never thought I'd ever need to charge it... and I never have in five years.. The RH AGM on my V10 is now 8 years old... which is definitely getting on... but it still throws the monster over as though there's no compression....even in winter when it's -10°C.

If you do fit it, we'd appreciate step by step photos!

Regards
M


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

n968412L said:


> RH battery... I've never thought I'd ever need to charge it... and I never have in five years.. The RH AGM on my V10 is now 8 years old... which is definitely getting on... but it still throws the monster over as though there's no compression....even in winter when it's -10°C.
> 
> If you do fit it, we'd appreciate step by step photos!
> 
> ...



Awesome! Thanks for that info. Glad to hear these batteries can fight the good fight haha. Ill absolutely make a DIY 


Jordan


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

*How to remove RH battery cover.*

Well I have read through all 171 posts, to try to find a good explanation of how to take my RH battery cover off. I'm afraid I will snap or break something and make it worse.

For the first time, my P did not start. In order to look at its manufacture date, I have to remove the cover. Also, I have the NAPA battery charger recommended at the beginning of this thread, but I have always used it on the LH battery. I thought I would charge up the RH battery, but I am wondering if that is senseless...

If it failed to start, and all my LH battery functions are normal, is it simply time to get a new battery? (I am NOT technical :facepalm:, and will have to have the VW dealer install it for me.) 

I am the 2nd owner, and have had the P for two and 1/2 years, and never had to replace either battery. It is interesting that the manual says that battery replacement is too technical for the owner, and to have this service done at the dealership. I guess that is because most owners are unaware of this forum! 

**I am planning on using the key trick to start it (fully turn right, fully turn left, fully turn right)**

Thanks for any help or thoughts.
:wave:
Tim


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Right hand side cover is easy... grab the tray closest to the tail light... and pull outward to left hand side.... done.


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

Tiger,
Thanks for the description. 
I must not be strong enough, or willing to put that much pressure on the insert piece , to get it to come off. There is a STRONG likelyhood that I need a battery no matter what. I would rather pay for a new battery, than a new battery and a plastic battery cover...that has to be shipped in from Germany..

I think I will give up and hope my dealer has the proper battery when I call tomorrow. In the mean time, I have my battery charger charging the LH battery.

Tim


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Tim,

For future reference I just put a diagram of how to remove the right battery cover in Jason's battery thread (post #13):

Battery replacement procedure

I hope your dealer had the battery in stock and it fixed the problem.

Cheers,
Chris


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

Chris,
Thanks for the diagram. I will try that, when I get the P back. Turns out that it was a relay switch, NOT the battery. And, it looks like the relay switch is covered by my service warranty. Both batteries hold charges, according to my service dept.

This morning, the P started up just fine, as normal. But, after I got to the dealer, and shut it off while I checked in, they asked me to perform that "trick" to get it to use the LH battery. So, I tried it for the first time, and it DID NOT WORK. It was a big let down, after I told them about it (and quoted this Phaeton forum)....grrr.. But, I suspect that the "relay switch" issue (whatever the heck that is), is the culprit.

Chris, again, THANKS...and I will try it out later. I suspect the part has to come from the motherland of the vehicle....lucky I have a Passat and Touareg for my wife and I to use

Tim


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## EurodriverMK3 (Apr 5, 2008)

Yeah Tim I had the same thing happen to me, except my issue was a bit different. I thought I had a dead starter battery too, so I prematurely boasted about two batteries lol. Turns out it was my starter. The trick still works  


I did finish the battery indicator/charger port install and it looks amazing. Ill post pics in my next post here. I highly recommend doing it, my wife loves how simple it is to hook up now.


Jordan.


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

Battery issue, take 2: Relay installed today, started up great, then did not start up great. Now best diagnosis is a battery regulator modulator thingy that costs over $800. While it is a covered part on my Service Warranty, before it is approved, Fedelity will send a person to check on it, before they authorize payment. That should take awhile. I guess to ensure the mechanic is right. Luckily I have the Passat and Touareg for my wife and I to drive. 
:wave:
Tim

PS. They offered me a loaner car (pretty good for servicing a 9-year old vehicle I did not buy there). Thinking of Pan European's (Michael) sage advise, I turned them down.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi Tim,
Did you or your dealer decide to make a diagnostic scan? This may reveal the real culprit of your problem. I think this can prevent a whole lot of replacements of suspected and expensive parts.

When you do not have a diagnostic tool, and you have the problem next time, then please look at your instrument cluster, and note the battery voltage indicator. For instance, we need to know whether it is dead, whether the instrument cluster lights up, the voltage is above 12 Volts and whether or not you see any meaningful message popping up in the instrument cluster, which might give us a clue.

When you have a VCDS, then perform a scan, store the results, then clear all DTC's and wait for the new scan. When faults re-appear, please report them. When they do not re-appear, then drive the car for a while until the problem occurs again. Then make another diagnostic scan and post it.

Perhaps your dealer can perform a GFF (guided fault finding) to find out what causes your problem.

Willem


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

Willem,
I understand the value of the scanning tool and what you are asking. I feel certain that my dealer did the scanning the day I first brought it in for a new battery. They have a Phaeton mechanic on staff, although I did not inquire if that one person was working that day. They told me yesterday that they were in contact with VW (and I assumed to the Phaeton experts in Germany.) On the first time I tried to start it and it failed, my electricals all worked fine (radio, A/C, trunk opened/closed) and I believe my volts showed closer to 12 than 14. Lots of warning lights appeared too, although I think they all appear briefly when I fire up the engine every time.

I just haven't gone out and bought the scanner, nor have I set up my Apple laptop to work as a Windows laptop. Mostly because I have that Service Warranty and for myself, I cannot fix or repair or replace anything, due to my lack of experience or knowledge on auto repair. As you can see from my earlier post, I could not even remove the RH battery cover. 

They did say there is a Tech. Bulletin about the Battery Modulator thing, and if my version was under a certain version number that the software needed updating, and my version number WAS under that version number...

But, I still recognize the wisdom of getting the proper scanning tool, and recording what I saw, for any problem that comes up in the future. Thanks for your support!
Tim


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Tim,

You may like to cheer up your dealer's parts guy by pointing him to the official clearance sale at http://www.vwparts.com/parts-outlet-center/index.php.

Type _Phaeton _in the search box and up pops that new version battery controller 3D0 915 181C reduced from $480 to $99.

But since it is a warranty job, probably nobody except the loss adjuster cares about the price.

Chris


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

Chris,

I tried the link above, and found:

"All shipments will be ground transportation and *may take several weeks to arrive *at your local dealership"

I can go SEVERAL WEEKS without my Phaeton, if I have to. But who wants that.

Tim

Edited: But, I am going to call the parts department anyway. The service writers mistrust on-line advice, but I have not really dealt with parts. I don't mind saving the Service Warranty folks $$. I just hope if this works they remember this for next time!


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## Tiger0002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Passat2001_5lover said:


> Chris,
> 
> I tried the link above, and found:
> 
> ...



Umm... no... you just go to your local VW dealer and it will be the same price... just bring that part number... and they will have it in a couple of days.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Since it has been almost a year since the last CTEK discussion, I wonder if any one purchased on of their products lately as I'm trying to decide which on shall I go for.

Regards,

Salah


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, I bought one. It's functionally no different from my old Schumacher charger. The 12v supply function is useless because it doesn't have the juice to run the Phaeton, I tried to use it when I changed batteries, it craps out instantly. The one marginally useful feature it has is the modular cable, I have that permanently attached to my RH battery terminals and running under the body panel so I can charge the RH battery without pulling the panel off.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm looking for one that can maintain the LH battery, any suggestions?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

As far as I can tell, any half-decent charger that automatically switches from charging to maintenance will do it. I now use both my chargers, the CTEK for the starter battery because of the convenience of the connector, and the Schumacher for the LH battery. The CTEK is quieter, but gets a lot hotter.


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## corobana (Jan 12, 2014)

*question*

do you solve the problem?


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I recently bought a CTEK 7002 charger and really like it. Performed well charging both batteries when I had them out of the car. However, the manual isn't clear on what mode to use when connecting it to the VPS battery when it's in the car and I just want to maintain the battery while I'm scanning the car with the engine off?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My CTEK has a power supply setting, but it has nowhere near enough juice to run the car with the battery out. I don't remember which model number it is. As soon as I disconnect the battery the charger craps out.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

I bought a NAPA 80A Model 85-60 charger/maintainer and had a slight problem charging my comfort battery. 

I'm not sure if the battery was the problem or the charger. 

I bought the charger because it can charge AGM batteries and it automatically switches between 6 & 12V. I have a car with a 6V battery and needed a real charger for it. 

Anywho, my NAPA charger thought the comfort battery was 6V and charged it 100% to 6V. I ended up getting a new battery from VW. After I removed the old comfort battery which was an Interstate, the charger suddenly knew it was 12V and charged it again to 100% to 12V. I had disconnected both the - and + terminals before buying the new battery. I have no idea why the charger would think the battery was 6V in the car and know it was 12V outside the car. It charged the right battery to 12V just fine with the battery in the car. The right battery is a lead acid Continental the same size as the left battery (why the last owner didn't put an AGM in the right while he was upgrading the size is a mystery).

My experience may be an anomaly. I now have a spare AGM battery. I have no idea how old it is because the date codes stickers were not removed. I will probably toss it in another car the next time I need a new battery.

-Eric


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> My CTEK has a power supply setting, but it has nowhere near enough juice to run the car with the battery out. I don't remember which model number it is. As soon as I disconnect the battery the charger craps out.


Thanks for that info. My charger has the SUPPLY mode and I just found the little note in the manual that says that this mode can also be used to supply power. I'm planning on using it that way only with the battery in place anyway.


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## richmondvatdi (May 17, 2003)

*Dead VPS Battery, Next Step*

I knew when I bought the P this past Fall that the VPS had issues. The car died several times when I test drove it so the previous owner had it charged and tested (checked out OK at the time). It's been fine until a couple weeks ago when a TPMS fault that I had resolved a few months ago reappeared around Christmas (maybe a clue). Then several days of near-zero F temps and just a few short trips appear to have discharged and maybe killed it.

Not wanting to deal with it any more, I picked up a replacement AGM battery at Napa today and am preparing to install it tonight after work. However before I plow ahead and screw something up (either the car or the brand new battery) I figured I would ask all of you a few questions:

1. Can I just install it per the Battery Replacement Procedure I found here on vwvortex or do I need to charge it first to make sure it is "fully charged"?
2. If I need to charge it first, can I use a standard 12V car battery charger or do I need to buy a special charger?
3. If a special charger, which one? It appears that the Napa Midtronics Maintainer discussed near the beginning of this thread is no longer available, and I'm not sure even if it was available would do the job. I want to find something off the shelf so I can get this done now. The car is inconveniently parked in front of my brother's house and I'd like to get it home ASAP.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Paul


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's definitely better to fully charge it before putting it in the car. I use a CTEK with an AGM setting, but I think I standard charger would be fine for an initial charge. Theoretically, you're supposed to disconnect the starter battery first because of the pyrotechnic switch, but I've disconnected the VPS battery on its own several times without a problem. Which AGM battery did you get from Napa?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

richmondvatdi said:


> I knew when I bought the P this past Fall that the VPS had issues. The car died several times when I test drove it so the previous owner had it charged and tested (checked out OK at the time). It's been fine until a couple weeks ago when a TPMS fault that I had resolved a few months ago reappeared around Christmas (maybe a clue). Then several days of near-zero F temps and just a few short trips appear to have discharged and maybe killed it.
> 
> Not wanting to deal with it any more, I picked up a replacement AGM battery at Napa today and am preparing to install it tonight after work. However before I plow ahead and screw something up (either the car or the brand new battery) I figured I would ask all of you a few questions:
> 
> ...


Paul, 

Yes, charge it fully first. It could take over 24 hours to charge it on the bench. No need to deal with it in the car. 

Use the procedures in the battery replacement thread for removing and replacing and other advice. I thought it said to fully charge the battery.

I think that chargers with an AGM setting were hard to find when this thread was started. I wouldn't use a regular charger. Optima makes AGM batteries and chargers also. 

I have a NAPA charger that will charge AGM batteries, but it has automatic switching between 6 and 12 volts and has thought two different AGM batteries were 6V. 

I also have a less smart charger I bought at Autozone that has an AGM setting. It doesn't have a 6V setting so I use it now to make sure my AGM batteries charge up to 12V. I used it to charge my AGM battery to 12V after the NAPA charger charged it to 100% at 6V.

Usually the advise is to buy the batteries from the dealer, but you already bought it. The AGM I bought at the dealer was actually less than other AGMs like the Autozone one. 

-Eric


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## AJL44 (Mar 23, 2015)

I've recently bought this https://www.ctek.com/products/vehicle/mxs-5-0 and initial impressions are that it's really good. I have another charger with an AGM setting but lately it's not been getting the batteries up to 100%. I put the CTEK onto my W12 and it's charged it overnight up to 100%. It's currently on my V8 which has been standing idle for several months.

My reason for looking for another charger was to keep the battery of whichever one I'm not using topped up and this charger has a maintenance setting so can just be left plugged in permanently. It comes with two connections, either bulldog clips to attach directly to the terminals or eyelet connectors to go on the screw down posts on the wiring harness. The cable from charger to battery has a handy plug so you can leave the cable attached to the battery and simply plug in the charger when you need it. Also the power cable to the charger is fairly flat so that the boot lid can close properly without damaging it or the car. Very nifty product.


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## Ceylon (May 15, 2019)

I'm using a Noco Genius G26000 Charger which puts out 26a and has specific modes for AGM batteries, repair cycles etc. Works great and with 26a of power, it charges anything from dead to 100% in a few hours. Mines permanently hooked up as it's currently off the road.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I have the CTEK 7002. It's fine for charging, but if I were buying again, I'd get one with a much larger supply amperage. The 7002 can do a 30amp supply, but it craps out instantly on the Phaeton.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

My NAPA has been pretty good, but I'd get one that was only for 12V batteries. 

The Interstate battery I mentioned in post #181 is the only "spare" AGM battery that tested good by the dealer late last year or earlier this year. The battery I replaced it with tested bad. 

Optima makes chargers that they claim will recover deeply discharged batteries. I'd probably buy one of those if I didn't have a few chargers already. 

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/battery-charger

-Eric


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## Jussi12 (Nov 30, 2007)

Hi,

I believe and many others that Optima batteries are the best in the world. Their construction is completely different from a conventional or AMG battery. Basically, they are suitable to replace the Aux battery, not so much as a starter battery. In an AMG battery, battery acid is absorbed by the glass wool. AMG batteries require a slightly higher charging voltage than conventional ones. Although Optima batteries are the best and especially they have a much longer battery life than other battery types. They are shaped so that they often do not fit in the car's original battery. But ... Cetec manufactures the world's best battery chargers. This is my opinion and that of many others. There are several different models. The range includes the right model for all kinds of needs. The intelligent charging process ensures that the battery can be fully charged 100%. Also AMG batteries. They also have recond mode, desulphation, etc. The best models are efficient, have a wide range of functions and are designed for garages, etc.

- Jussi


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Jussi12 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe and many others that Optima batteries are the best in the world. Their construction is completely different from a conventional or AMG battery. Basically, they are suitable to replace the Aux battery, not so much as a starter battery. In an AMG battery, battery acid is absorbed by the glass wool. AMG batteries require a slightly higher charging voltage than conventional ones. Although Optima batteries are the best and especially they have a much longer battery life than other battery types. They are shaped so that they often do not fit in the car's original battery.
> 
> - Jussi


Jussi,

It's too bad there are no Optima batteries to fit our Phaetons, at least none to replace the Comfort battery. 

You could probably get an Optima to fit the right side because there is more room unless you have a tow bar or other stuff above the starter battery. 

I replaced the storage box in both of mine with flat covers that match the left cover so there are several inches of clearance above my starter batteries. 

- Eric


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## Jussi12 (Nov 30, 2007)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Jussi,
> 
> It's too bad there are no Optima batteries to fit our Phaetons, at least none to replace the Comfort battery.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can put an Optima battery well as a starter battery, it will probably work in this task as well. It is true that the biggest problem with Phaetons is in aux batteries. It would be great if the aux battery could replaced with an Optima battery. The Phaeton charging system is very complex, but it always keeps the starter battery fully charged. That is, if the charging system works properly. Personally, I don’t see the need to replace a starter battery, such as an Optima battery.

- Jussi


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