# Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programming... what's the highest hp?



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I've been through the search results and haven't found much on people pushing this software to the edge. There are plenty of soft-core people running this on show cars but I'd rather hear about people close to popping their little 4-bangers. People that have run more than 15psi- please share your boost level, dyno and track results along with anything specific to your setup beyond a regular aba with an intercooler. Also, please share your opinions if you have any. 
Here's your pic for views:


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programming... what's the highest hp? (DieGTi)*

im on 18psi on the 440 program and my air/fuel is about as high as i want it. (11.8 in higher RPM's) i dyno'd the car on 10psi and it made 220whp and 229.7 wtq. Havnt re-dyno'd it since i turned the boost up but if feels around 280-300.
Check the build thread in the sig to see what is done....i think i am done with this Chip tuning now.....getting standalone soon
I believe that Salsa is using a 4bar regulator and running close or over 25psi and making over 300.










_Modified by 2pt. slo at 7:51 AM 12-29-2008_


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programming... what's the highest hp? (2pt. slo)*

Are you monitoring your fuel pressure at all for those pulls when the a:f starts to climb?


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## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programming... what's the highest hp? (DieGTi)*

A friend was doing 16psi on a t3 60trim. AFR was pretty rich 10.5 ish so it would probably tolerate another couple pounds of boost.
According to vag com injectors were at 100% duty. (is it bad to run them this way?) The car show little timing pull so it would probably tolerate a few more psi.
Have you guys checked your AFR's while cruising? My friends car was really rich like 12.2-12.5 ish just cruizing around. I though it was pretty rich, but had no way to adjust it.


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programming... what's the highest hp? (VW_NUT)*

OP No i dont have a fuel pressure gauge. and your friend must have had a problem with his car because while cruising my car runs from 14.3-15


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programming... what's the highest hp? (2pt. slo)*

I agree, if you're running that rich while cruising then you probably have a 4bar fpr instead of the 3bar (should be 3bar), a dirty MAF sensor or another faulty sensor.


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programming... what's the highest hp? (DieGTi)*

Once I get things sorted I'll begin working on a 60# image for ABA's using Motronic 5.9.1. However, at that point - I think the 8v head will be the limiting factor, not the software. Sorry to be off topic to an extent but I just wanted to put a little light at the end of the tunnel for guys that are at the limit.


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programmi ... (NeonGreenbangbang)*

im going standalone next....my motor is built for far more power than this chip tuning can support.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Dava aka
Salsa GTI
pushed the c2 42# chip to the limits on his 8v
I think he was running 21-23psi around 300ish hp he is switching over to standalone now I believe. 



















_Modified by chrisbmx68 at 11:54 AM 12-30-2008_


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_Dava aka
Salsa GTI
hp he is switching over to standalone now I believe. 



I doubt it.








-Jeffrey Atwood


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

ok he claimed he was last time I was up in coopersberg lol 
you got something special in the works for him....?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

It would be nice to see the aba version of the stg 3 60lbs software that is now available for the vr6's.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

you guys could give the 1.8t crowd a run for their money if that came out


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
I doubt it.








-Jeffrey Atwood

can we please get a larger tune then??????


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programmi ... (2pt. slo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt. slo* »_im going standalone next....my motor is built for far more power than this chip tuning can support.

That's just incorrect. Standalone's can't do any more than motronic 5.9.1. Maybe you can tune a standalone for more than your current chip is worth but that doesn't make the hardware inferior, just the software. In fact, most standalones are inferior hardware wise to your factory unit.


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (2pt. slo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt. slo* »_
can we please get a larger tune then??????

That might be hard to do in a generic format. Jeff may have to get more vehicle specific once you begin to approach those limits. I know I'd never try to release a generic chip meant for 400+ HP, but he may have a few things up his sleeve that I don't know about.


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: (NeonGreenbangbang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeonGreenbangbang* »_
Jeff may have to get more vehicle specific once you begin to approach those limits. 

those "limits" have been reached... and i cannot go further with this tune...
and my motor is built to handle much more than a 440cc tune can give me...thats all i was saying


_Modified by 2pt. slo at 5:29 AM 12-31-2008_


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## minimort (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

where can I get that SRI? it's nice


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: Pushing the limit of the C2 ABA Stage 2 programmi ... (NeonGreenbangbang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeonGreenbangbang* »_
That's just incorrect. Standalone's can't do any more than motronic 5.9.1. Maybe you can tune a standalone for more than your current chip is worth but that doesn't make the hardware inferior, just the software. In fact, most standalones are inferior hardware wise to your factory unit.

How good is it at controlling low imp 1600cc injectors? How about staged injectors?
And to stay on topic, _needsomthincheap_ put down 286whp on c2 440, it was starting to lean out at that point


_Modified by sp_golf at 9:00 AM 12-31-2008_


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

Yeah I think the tune is at its absolute fueling limits around 300hp


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (2pt. slo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt. slo* »_
can we please get a larger tune then??????

Sure. 
Bring me a development car, prepared to tolerate 300+whp.
'Race tune' in ~1-2 days = idle and WOT fully sorted
'Daily driver tune' in 2-4 weeks = 100% fully sorted daily drive, idle, ALL startup conditions, cruze, 30+mpg hi-way....
The next logical step would be 60# inj. and appropriate MAF sensor.
Theoretical power: 400 ish whp.
Stay 'tuned'. C2 is coming out with a user tunable product in '09.
So you can sort this sort of thing yourself.
-Jeff


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (minimort)*


_Quote, originally posted by *minimort* »_where can I get that SRI? it's nice

GO get a MK4 manifold and a 1/4"x3"x12" pice of aluminum plate..a tig welder
some time / grinding/ fabricating / fitting / more sanding grinding blending and fitting..more welding....
YOu get the idea......
Made it my self ....along with every other pice on the damn car
and yes stand alone is sitting on my bench....034efi stage 1c wasted spark setup


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (2pt. slo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2pt. slo* »_
those "limits" have been reached... and i cannot go further with this tune...
and my motor is built to handle much more than a 440cc tune can give me...thats all i was saying
_Modified by 2pt. slo at 5:29 AM 12-31-2008_

You didn't have the right idea as to what I was saying. I meant ABOVE the 300HP limit. Not the limits of the 42lb tune..... we were talking about the same thing man....
As you can see, Jeff said prety much what I was going too and getting at. You can only predict average fuel and timing requirements up a certain point. After that you need the specific data for the specific application. For instance, for most GM applications I could build you a prom image that would basically fulfill all of your needs as long as they weren't extreme. As soon as you start pushing certain barriers (what I meant by limts), you need the specific car. Not all cars have the same volumetric efficiency, spark tolerances, etc. The more power you begin to make out of a specific engine size, the tighter your tolerances get.
That why I was such a big advocate of teaching people how to burn their own proms and understanding the basic principles of engine mangement..... in the past.

_Modified by NeonGreenbangbang at 10:05 AM 12-31-2008_


_Modified by NeonGreenbangbang at 10:05 AM 12-31-2008_


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Bring me a development car, prepared to tolerate 300+whp.



Jefnes - I'll bring you my gti and leave it with you if you want to use it as the pig. It'll have to go to a buddy's shop in CT for a bottom end build first. I'll shoot you a pm to work out the details if you're serious. This is my 4th toy so I can part with it for awhile. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VRClownCar (Apr 8, 2001)

*Re: (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_

Jefnes - I'll bring you my gti and leave it with you if you want to use it as the pig. It'll have to go to a buddy's shop in CT for a bottom end build first. I'll shoot you a pm to work out the details if you're serious. This is my 4th toy so I can part with it for awhile. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

let the games begin


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_

Jefnes - I'll bring you my gti and leave it with you if you want to use it as the pig. It'll have to go to a buddy's shop in CT for a bottom end build first. I'll shoot you a pm to work out the details if you're serious. This is my 4th toy so I can part with it for awhile. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

do it you wont!


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

If we can get the hardware updated at a reasonable cost and Jeff is comfortable with my spec sheet then we'll make it happen.


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (DieGTi)*

Seeing that manifold of Salsa's really makes me hope guys around look at it and realize that you don't need to buy something from a big aftermarket company all the time. That's a solid example of classic hot rodding. Using OEM parts and making them more suitable for performance applications. I almost have never seen that from an import guy, and thought I was rather alone in what I'm trying to do to a mk3/aba manifold.
A big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to Salsa - I hope more follow his lead. I hope he has some pride in his work on it, because he should!


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

this forum cannot contain daves Hatred/pride


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

My first encounter with him was a bit interesting, but I've grown to like it as a change of pace. You never know which dave you're gunna get, which is fun. Either way - I admire the fact that he took something like the stock manifold and made it much better. 
I admire cars built like that far more than cars built out of a catalog. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

My car has a turbo..and an intercooler with green G60 valve cover and green wires..also some shiny pipes and stuff


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_My car has a turbo..and an intercooler with green G60 valve cover and green wires..also some shiny pipes and stuff


























































..... however, does it have a flux capacitor?


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (NeonGreenbangbang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeonGreenbangbang* »_

























































..... however, does it have a flux capacitor?

No but it did this at 17 psi at H20 2 years ago with a bum fuel pump and a TT 268 cam


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*

Good info, been back to the dyno since?


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (NeonGreenbangbang)*

THe Specs...............1999 OBD2 ABA …….
Completely Stock Lower End
German OBD1 Head home brewed porting and matching hand laped valves and new seals
Autotech 270 camshaft with TT adjustable cam Gear
E-Bay under drive pulley
My Home built MK4 short runner intake manifold
C2 440 Injector Program 440 ford motor sport injectors and 4 bar regulator
Stacked Victor Rienz head gaskets and ARP non undercut head studs
PSI cast exhaust manifold with external waste gate flange
Tial 38mm waste gate with 12 psi spring. plumbed in stainless back into the down pipe pre cat…..
Turbonetics T3/TO4B “S” trim turbo with a stage 2 exhaust wheel in a .63 5 bolt exhaust housing
Air pressure regulator as a boost controller 23-25 psi of Boost
3” Stainless down pipe into 3 inch exhaust with cat welded around it..(for Looks)
18” long magnaflow center resonator…magnaflow muffler into duel outlet exhaust tip
Paint matched G60 valve cover 
2.5” stainless intercooler piping into 2.5 in and out front mount intercooler..(painted Black) core measuring 3”x7”x19” 
NGK BREK8EIX spark plugs gapped at .024
Green NGP plug wires…stupid MSD Blaster SS coil..(because it sucks slightly less than a cracked VW coil)
Using an 02A trans with an Autotech Wavetrac Diff and a Spec Stage 3 Clutch and 11lb flywheel


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_Good info, been back to the dyno since?

not without retarded operators at the dyno controls


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_not without retarded operators at the dyno controls









See, that's why you need a flux capacitor. It's like cryptonite to ****ty dyno calibrations. That's why I put big stickers on my fenders, right behind the front wheels warning everyone that may car is a Type-R w/ a flux capacitor on board. Instant 30WHP.


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## VRClownCar (Apr 8, 2001)

*Re: (NeonGreenbangbang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeonGreenbangbang* »_
See, that's why you need a flux capacitor. It's like cryptonite to ****ty dyno calibrations. That's why I put big stickers on my fenders, right behind the front wheels warning everyone that may car is a Type-R w/ a flux capacitor on board. Instant 30WHP.

I believe the extra 30hp is calculated like drive train loss. its a complex calculation, basically there is a huge jump in power after 88mph on the dyno


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (VRClownCar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRClownCar* »_
I believe the extra 30hp is calculated like drive train loss. its a complex calculation, basically there is a huge jump in power after 88mph on the dyno









I'm an ass and completely missed your joke on my joke. I should be shot for my epic stupidity.


_Modified by NeonGreenbangbang at 10:38 AM 1-1-2009_


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (NeonGreenbangbang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeonGreenbangbang* »_
There was this joke in there that you missed, completely. 
I'm very aware of how dyno's work, the calculations normally aren't that complex - but that's coming from a numbers geek so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

LOL 
No 
You missed the 88mph referance


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*

Jeff, bad news- I drank all the money for budling the bottom end in my gti tonigte. Happy new year!


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (Salsa GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_
LOL 
No 
You missed the 88mph referance









OMFG... do I feel like the idiot.








Hey, btw do they have emissions testing in your area? Are you able to pass NOx requirements there for your year car are does the BMV alter your emissions requirement status for the year engine? Ohio is a bit of a PITA about it.


_Modified by NeonGreenbangbang at 8:26 AM 1-1-2009_


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

in pa in our county anyway if you drive less than 5k a year your exempt from emissions. ObdII is a vag com only scan


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Yeah, we are a port only scan here as well for 96+ cars, but in our messed up state the BMV is wishy-washy on 95 and older cars that have 96+ (obd2) drive trains in them. Sometimes they will let you sneak past with only a port emissions compliance scan, and other times they give your car a prostate exam. I spent about 3 hours arguing with an emissions station manager that my letter from the state wasn't fake just because *she* had never seen one before and honestly - it's the only thing that's keep me in a 96+ mk3 instead of a mk2. Salsa has the project that I originally wanted to do once I decided to go VW for my next toy.


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

It may be like that here, I am not sure how they handle old cars with newer motors. My 92 gti had to pass a sniffer test. 
It helps that dave knows/works with josh who owns a shop that is certified to do emissions.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

I'm in an emissions free area out in the sticks. In the metro areas of Arizona and Colorado you can have a turbo as long as you retain a carbon canister, vapor capture for the gas tank, have a gas cap that seals and you can pass a sniffer on a dyno.


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## NeonGreenbangbang (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: (DieGTi)*

They put you on rollers even if you are OBD2? Wow, thats pretty ****ty.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (NeonGreenbangbang)*

I think obd2 goes on the rollers under certain conditions. They will not dyno a 4wd or awd but they will do an idle sniff.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (NeonGreenbangbang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeonGreenbangbang* »_

Hey, btw do they have emissions testing in your area? Are you able to pass NOx requirements there for your year car are does the BMV alter your emissions requirement status for the year engine? Ohio is a bit of a PITA about it.

_Modified by NeonGreenbangbang at 8:26 AM 1-1-2009_

A combo of things....I'm in Lehigh County..on an 88 car = no emissions
also being an ex state inspection and emission tech helps
plus the 5,000 mile part
mixed with inside knowledge of a local shop
and there you have it.....and obd2 in PA is plug into eissopn machine and read readyness codes...thats it


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## cifdig (Jun 4, 2005)

I still till this day can't figure why my car leans out I'm just at the point where i'm just like whatever. My softwear is the new softwear for the bbm 440 file from c2. Car runs insane but it will ping alittle then go away everytime. I have the billit 3 inch maf bbl fuel rail Inline fuel pump and it still is acting up, but when I put 100 oct mix it stops. Maybe my knock sensor is going I don't know, my timing is dead on so it ain't that. Or maybe the bbm tune was done on lower boost or intended for lower boost no more than 15 psi. Again I love the softwear because I still put down 220 on pump gas runing 15 psi, but maybe someone can give me ideas. Oh almost forgot I just built a 2.0 t with my old c2 stage 3 file intended for the bbm sc kit and it runs flawless on 16 psi I can't understand it has no Inline or fuel rail and it runs insane. But not faster than my sc one. Lol happy new years to all by the way










_Modified by cifdig at 6:01 PM 1-1-2009_


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

my guess is your knock sensor is shot and your not pulling any timing.


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## cifdig (Jun 4, 2005)

yea I was thinking that as well, that's the only thing I haven't done yet. On the block there's two which one should I change or both?


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

both sounds like a safe bet to me. You could try re torquing them to spec first though, if they are too loose they are as good as worthless.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

You'll get dip-in ping if you have a large volume to fill between the maf and the combustion chamber - big intercooler, really long piping etc... It's pretty harmless as long as it goes away before boost really builds.


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## cifdig (Jun 4, 2005)

I don't I have an air to water set up. It goes from charger to intake. Ima order to new sensors if that doesn't work than I guess I'll keep mixing my gas


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## Lloyd Plumtree (Aug 13, 2008)

*FV-QR*

309whp @ 19psi
93* pump gas
C2 42lb @ 3bar
Drop-in 9:1 JE`s 
268/260 TT cam
No port work
2.5" exhuast
RMR SRI
Car started out with a Kinetic Stg-2 kit. 

Dyno`s were posted in Sept `07. Can`t find them tho. From what I`ve seen no one has posted a dyno showing more power then that. Hater should have the fuel to do it tho at 4bar. Hit me up I`ll share some details on that setup with you.


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Sure. 
Bring me a development car, prepared to tolerate 300+whp.
'Race tune' in ~1-2 days = idle and WOT fully sorted
'Daily driver tune' in 2-4 weeks = 100% fully sorted daily drive, idle, ALL startup conditions, cruze, 30+mpg hi-way....
The next logical step would be 60# inj. and appropriate MAF sensor.
Theoretical power: 400 ish whp.
Stay 'tuned'. C2 is coming out with a user tunable product in '09.
So you can sort this sort of thing yourself.
-Jeff



if i can have a guarantee that it will only take 4 weeks for the "daily driver tune". PM me and i will drive up there and you can have your way with her.


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## WindsorJetta8v (Mar 13, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
Stay 'tuned'. C2 is coming out with a user tunable product in '09.
So you can sort this sort of thing yourself.
-Jeff

any more info on this? sounds fun


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## vdubbugman53 (Nov 7, 2006)

ill take my AFR to 12.5 any day......make real good clean power there on my 2.0
BTW DieGTi You got PM


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## needsomthincheap (Feb 3, 2004)

this all sounds tempting!!! i made 286 whp and 304 tq. @ 21 psi, started leaning out on 3 bar. now building engine, more with new rods, and ARP fasteners, and a little headwork. gonna go 4 bar with water/meth hoping for a bit over 300whp will post dyno when finished.
- would love to see a higher tune for the ABA!!! its got more in it still i know it!


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