# Cogged Pulleys - Goodbye belt slip



## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

Hey guys,

Last year i ended up supercharging my Corrado VR6. I was happy with the setup but got sick of dealing with the belt slip, tension, and it not consistently running full boost. I started looking for ways to prevent the slip such as finding a used dual or even single idler setup which is hard to come by. Verdict sells a full cogged pulley conversion kit but i couldn't bring myself to spend well over $1000 for some pulleys. I ended up coming across a website ( www.superchargerinnovations.com ) that offered full cogged conversion that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. The website wasn't fully up and running yet but i contacted him anyways and talked to him about the pulleys. He had just finished getting a couple sets made so i immediately picked up a set. Super nice guy to work with and I could always give him a call if i had any questions. :thumbup::beer:

He offers two sets, with or without power steering but you cannot have A/C for either. My a/c was already off but i am still running p/s. 
The kit with p/s is only *$849* and without p/s is *$798* which is almost half the cost of Verdict's kit.

The set comes with everything you need to do the swap and only takes a couple hours to install. I took some pictures to show the pulleys as i install them.
Crank pulley
Alternator pulley
Supercharger pulley
2 idlers
Cogged belt
All the hardware you need.









Here is my current setup
-OBD1 Dizzy
-Vortech V2
-C2 software
-#30 injectors
-Mad Max Diverter Valve (a good diverter valve is important when running cogs)
-Supercharger Innovations Cogged Pulleys w/ a 30 tooth pulley on the charger
The 30 tooth pulley with my setup hits 14psi @ 6500-7000rpm. 

First, Here's my car...


























First thing you have to do is jack up the car and take off the wheel so you can get to the lower pulleys then remove the charger, intake, charge pipe, belt and whatever else is in the way.









I removed the alternator and supercharger pulleys and installed the new cogged pulleys right away because they were easy to get to. Here is the old alternator pulley vs. the new shiny cogged pulley.









Next, i removed the old crank pulley and installed the new (super lightweight) flanged crank pulley. A new hardened crank bolt, washer and key are supplied to install this. The hardest part about this is obviously getting the old crankshaft pulley off. I didn't get a picture of the crank installed but you get the idea.

















Next, i installed the upper flanged idler. This is installed using a longer top alternator bolt, spacer, and shims for alignment. This is an important piece to the kit. There are only two flanged pulleys total to keep the belt tracking straight. One being the Crank pulley and the other is this upper idler. There are a couple different size shims included in the kit that allow you get this spaced out perfectly. I originally used one thick spacer, then after running the engine, i decided to add one thin spacer. The belt is now tracking perfect. This makes getting the belt alignment super easy.

















You are going to have to put 3 spacers behind the water pump pulley to space it out for correct alignment. The kit supplies 3 new bolts and the spacers to do this. I had to unbolt my front and rear motor mount and jack up the engine to get to the bolts(I'm sure this isn't just a Corrado thing). This can also be tricky to hold the spacers in place while re-installing the pulley. I used a little bit of grease to keep them in place.:thumbup:

The p/s steering pulley also needs to be flipped around. This pulley is slightly offset so by flipping it around, the majority of the belt will ride on the pulley.

He suggested at this point, before you re-stall the water pump pulley, it might be a good idea to bolt up the charger (no need to hook up oil lines or anything yet) throw the belt on and make sure the upper idler and crank are lined up.

















The next step is to install the lower idler which wraps the belt further around the alternator pulley. This bolts on using the same holes where the A/C used to bolt on. Again, all hardware is included that is needed. Here is the only picture i have of this that he had actually sent to me. 









Once you have installed all of the pulleys and idlers, go ahead and slap that supercharger back in there. I still wouldn't hook everything up yet such as oil lines or intake. I bolted it on, installed the belt and cranked the engine over by hand a 4 or 5 times to see how the belt was tracking. Once everything looked good, i put everything back together and had a beer to celebrate. :beer:


















I don't think i missed anything but if i think of anything i will add it.
I can't even begin to explain how awesome the cogged pulleys feel. So much more responsive than it was with the old pulley's. I don't think most people realize how much the belt actually slips. Besides all of the performance gains from the pulleys, the sound that the cogs make, have people noticing you coming from a mile away. It sounds amazing and definitely has people curious as to what is going on under the hood.

BIG thanks to Michael at *Supercharger Innovations* for building a kit that is affordable and solves our notorious belt slippage.

I will try to get a video of the cogs posted up here shortly.

-Lee


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Only took 7 years for some one to figure out how I did it, lmao


Good Luck


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

It's about damn time! :beer:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Lots of info here for what you can expect from ownership over the years. FYI the idler bearings wont last very long due to the 15-17k they will be running at. Best off is to eliminate it entirely and run a shorter belt from the water pump to the charger.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3241908


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

Seems like your setup held up to the cogs pretty well. Any complaints as of yet? Besides replacing the seal and bearings?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Went back N/A after having tons of issues with software. Standalone is a must due to the efficiency of the setup will exceed the parameters of C2/UM filing setups. Keep a careful eye on your air fuels.


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

14 psi is awesome!
When I installed cogs I noticed a huge improvement in mid range boost and performance.
It was like putting the SC on all over again. Love the sound too. Your are right about it being an attention getter.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

Hooked up my wideband today. Everthing is looking great. C2 software seems to work well. So far so good.:thumbup:


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

wow!!! i am installing kp tuning MS3X system into my blown mk2 golf vr6...... this may be the next upgrade!


well snaps........ i want to keep my AC........ i've already had my ac pulley shaved smooth, wonder if there is a belt that would work for the cogs and a smooth ac pulley. 

any hoot, look forward to what you have to say about the cogs after a few thousand miles with them. 

:beer:


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

carsluTT said:


> wow!!! i am installing kp tuning MS3X system into my blown mk2 golf vr6...... this may be the next upgrade!
> 
> 
> well snaps........ i want to keep my AC........ i've already had my ac pulley shaved smooth, wonder if there is a belt that would work for the cogs and a smooth ac pulley.
> ...


Nice! I have been contemplating going with Lugtronic down the road. For now, i am sticking with the C2 software until maybe next season. I am not sure why the kit can't be run with a/c. Isn't the a/c pulley already smooth? I'll see what his reasoning is for not making the kits available for a/c.


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## BlackSwan (Dec 29, 2010)

Awesome!!

Can't wait to order my set!

Post up some vids!! 👍👍


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

carsluTT said:


> wow!!! i am installing kp tuning MS3X system into my blown mk2 golf vr6...... this may be the next upgrade!
> 
> 
> well snaps........ i want to keep my AC........ i've already had my ac pulley shaved smooth, wonder if there is a belt that would work for the cogs and a smooth ac pulley.
> ...


The AC pulley has to be replaced or sleeved. The AC also shortens belt life in my experience.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Lee, you might want to consider upgrading to a Mondo valve with the cogs. The MM unit won't deal with the 700-900 CFM's of the charger.


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

looks great and now I have a reason to supercharge my cabrio vr6 project without having aggravating and embarrassing belt slippage. need this on my r32


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## Yak Meat (Sep 28, 2011)

Awesome news!

Is this any different for 24v setups?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Yak Meat said:


> Awesome news!
> 
> Is this any different for 24v setups?


Yes they are different. MK4 and R32 are different ball games


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

Yak Meat said:


> Awesome news!
> 
> Is this any different for 24v setups?





DeckManDubs said:


> Yes they are different. MK4 and R32 are different ball games




Im actually haveing Verdict make me an Auxiliary Drive Cog setup ( dedicated belt for the blower leaving the drive belt alone ). Verdict is making Bill and I, a new 6 rib CRANK pulley, COG Crank Pulley, an Idler and a Blower pulley which includes a belt tensioner for the oem serpentine belt as the OEM tensioner is removed to fit the Blower bracket. 

Verdict doesnt produce a kit for the 24v/R like the Kit above, only for the 12 V. The kit above replaces the drive pulleys and the crank with a SINGLE belt. Its important for people to realize this. Im glad the OP found a company to build something for him and others. Matthew/Yak meat. maybe you can contact this company and see what they can do for the R32 group seeing we would need a blower bracket to accomodate a V1/2/3/7 to include the possibility of either AUX Drive, or a setup similar to the OPs. 


OP: Im glad things are looking up and you are enjoying the extra boost. :beer:


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## Yak Meat (Sep 28, 2011)

Disappointing news, but also expected. Is the gentlemen responsible for this kit working on a 24v solution/R32?


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

Yak Meat said:


> Disappointing news, but also expected. Is the gentlemen responsible for this kit working on a 24v solution/R32?


Matthew, Contact the company and see what they say. perhaps you can work something out for the rest of the community.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BOUDAH said:


> Im actually haveing Verdict make me an Auxiliary Drive Cog setup ( dedicated belt for the blower leaving the drive belt alone ). Verdict is making Bill and I, a new 6 rib CRANK pulley, COG Crank Pulley, an Idler and a Blower pulley which includes a belt tensioner for the oem serpentine belt as the OEM tensioner is removed to fit the Blower bracket.
> 
> Verdict doesnt produce a kit for the 24v/R like the Kit above, only for the 12 V. The kit above replaces the drive pulleys and the crank with a SINGLE belt. Its important for people to realize this. Im glad the OP found a company to build something for him and others. Matthew/Yak meat. maybe you can contact this company and see what they can do for the R32 group seeing we would need a blower bracket to accomodate a V1/2/3/7 to include the possibility of either AUX Drive, or a setup similar to the OPs.


Ellery, the VF Stg 4 bracket is the only way to do it for the 24v/R32 setups due to the design of the heads. The 12v V1 AMS style setups will not even remotely work unless on a MK3/MK2 chassis car


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

Understood. I wonder if that company would be willing to do some R&D or take Veridicts Old 24v/R32 Supercharger mount design and adapt it to their needs. Im saying copy their design, but take the general idea and work with that to tailer it to their own design. I wish VF had those STG 3/4 brackets available to have scanned and improved upon. 

Either way i do not want to stagger too far from the OPs original topic. However, there is a market for 24v/R32 buyers for a Supercharger option with a V1/2/3/7 bracket to move away from the now obsolete V9 F/G/H trim blower.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BOUDAH said:


> Understood. I wonder if that company would be willing to do some R&D or take Veridicts Old 24v/R32 Supercharger mount design and adapt it to their needs. Im saying copy their design, but take the general idea and work with that to tailer it to their own design. I wish VF had those STG 3/4 brackets available to have scanned and improved upon


I have solid models


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

my r32 has a vf stage 2 on it and with less than 8k on hte belt it just scream and squeals. makes me wonder if it have the stage 2 with serp belt evenbenefits the car power wise I am curious to see if they wil make a r32 kit also. when things calm down a little I will contact them


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

austin neuschafer said:


> my r32 has a vf stage 2 on it and with less than 8k on hte belt it just scream and squeals. makes me wonder if it have the stage 2 with serp belt evenbenefits the car power wise I am curious to see if they wil make a r32 kit also. when things calm down a little I will contact them


You can get a stiffer belt from [email protected]. Its stiffer than the ****y VF belts. 


Deckman... where have u been with this info prior, lol


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BOUDAH said:


> Deckman... where have u been with this info prior, lol



Where I have always been. There are those who know and those who do not. 

An when it comes to supercharged VR6's, I might know a thing or two 

:beer:


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## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

DeckManDubs said:


> The 12v V1 AMS style setups will not even remotely work unless on a MK3/MK2 chassis car


If I'm reading this right, you're saying a V1 12V kit can be modified to work on an R motor, provided it's in a Mk2 / 3 chassis?

This is the opposite of what I have told by both Verdict and Rodney Huss.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

vr6swap said:


> If I'm reading this right, you're saying a V1 12V kit can be modified to work on an R motor, provided it's in a Mk2 / 3 chassis?
> 
> This is the opposite of what I have told by both Verdict and Rodney Huss.


Correct. I presume you talked to Phil @ Verdict, you needed to talk to engineering. Providing that you use the MK3 style engine mounts it is not an issue.


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## BlackSwan (Dec 29, 2010)

Never mind...


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BlackSwan said:


> It's hilarious to me how your so helpful now that someone else is bringing these kits to market. Where were you before when people were asking questions & needed info? You seem to be more about hoarding the info for yourself & profiting rather than advancing the community forward!


opcorn:

Glad to see you find it hilarious. I have always been helpful, just have to open you eyes a little bit. You cannot go about life doing everything for free. 

Ask yourself, if you invented something that you intended to market with lots of time and expense doing the R&D, would you just give away the info? 

I doubt it


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

DeckManDubs said:


> opcorn:
> 
> Glad to see you find it hilarious. I have always been helpful, just have to open you eyes a little bit. You cannot go about life doing everything for free.
> 
> ...



Well im glad someone mentioned that because i like to talk and this gives good talking material. lol A forum is there to Share information and frankly, if you are out ti market something and sell it, then great. But i never have heard of you even offering that up as an option whenever ive inquired about something regarding cogs, which ive mentioned in the forum before. 

Do you want to explain what you mean by using MK3 mounts, specifically how does the AMS or verdict bracket mount to a 12v and how that is diff than a MK4 say R. What im asking is if it can be adapted, is it the fact the MK4 mounts get in the way of the belt clearance or waht is the underlying problem that requires a MK3 motor mount. I dont think will disclose any 'trade" secrets, lol


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BOUDAH said:


> Well im glad someone mentioned that because i like to talk and this gives good talking material. lol A forum is there to Share information and frankly, if you are out ti market something and sell it, then great. But i never have heard of you even offering that up as an option whenever ive inquired about something regarding cogs, which ive mentioned in the forum before.
> 
> Do you want to explain what you mean by using MK3 mounts, specifically how does the AMS or verdict bracket mount to a 12v and how that is diff than a MK4 say R. What im asking is if it can be adapted, is it the fact the MK4 mounts get in the way of the belt clearance or waht is the underlying problem that requires a MK3 motor mount. I dont think will disclose any 'trade" secrets, lol



Ellery,

I am not sure how well you know the MK3 setup/ chassis, but it does not use any frame rail mounting for the engine mounts. The VF 24v brackets for a V1 will not clear the hood on a MK3, where The AMS will clear the hood, but as the pulleys on the engine are on a different plane in relation to the head, it makes it not exactly a bolt on affair. If you have a Bridgeport, Lathe and are good with machining its not too difficult. 

-Noah


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

DeckManDubs said:


> Ellery,
> 
> I am not sure how well you know the MK3 setup/ chassis, but it does not use any frame rail mounting for the engine mounts. The VF 24v brackets for a V1 will not clear the hood on a MK3, where The AMS will clear the hood, but as the pulleys on the engine are on a different plane in relation to the head, it makes it not exactly a bolt on affair. If you have a Bridgeport, Lathe and are good with machining its not too difficult.
> 
> -Noah


Noah,

I didnt know this was your username. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW :laugh:


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

With my current setup and 14psi, i noticed it getting too close to the danger zone on the lean side so i called up Michael and told him i would like to try to 32 tooth pulley to drop the max boost down to about 12. Since i haven't put many miles on the pulleys yet and there are no signs of wear or scratches, he is sending me out the new pulley today and i will be shipping the 30 tooth back to him. Like i said before, great guy to work with! 

In the meantime i had a chance to get a quick video from inside the car and you can really hear the how they sound.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)




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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BOUDAH said:


> Noah,
> 
> I didnt know this was your username. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW :laugh:


:thumbup:



92Lowraddo said:


>


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

That sounds really good. Gives a new dimension to the normally quiet V2. A happy side effect to elimination of belt slip.


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## Vee-DubbVR6 (Jul 31, 2007)

always good to have options - thanks for sharing the progress! :thumbup::beer:


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

No problem guys. Glad to share with everyone. I cant get enough of the car now. I was bummed out after supercharging it and it running so inconsistantly. Moved the maf a couple inches further away from the charger too and its idling and boosting so smoothly.:thumbup:


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

same here. my r32 has belt slippage and sometimes I wounder if it is even helping the cars performance at all


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

I hear ya. I would take my buddies for a ride and it really wouldnt even feel any quicker at all... then im sitting there trying to explain that sometimes it doesnt slip and I swear its faster and they just look at me like I wasted a bunch of money. :facepalm: Nowww I can show them what a supercharged vr should feel like.:thumbup:


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

I always say, once you engineer the VF out of VF Engineering, your setup will perform much better.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

:thumbup: Well I received my 32 tooth pulley yesterday from Michael. Once I lower the boost a couple psi, I should be all set be running some safe a/f ratios. It will be nice to know im not going to fry a valve or something. 
Who all is running an inline fuel pump?


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

92Lowraddo said:


> :thumbup: Well I received my 32 tooth pulley yesterday from Michael. Once I lower the boost a couple psi, I should be all set be running some safe a/f ratios. It will be nice to know im not going to fry a valve or something.
> Who all is running an inline fuel pump?


Ill be running a Walbro in the rear after my Fuel filter ( R32 ). Everyone raves about the 044 Bosch, although its loud.


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

92Lowraddo said:


> :thumbup: Well I received my 32 tooth pulley yesterday from Michael. Once I lower the boost a couple psi, I should be all set be running some safe a/f ratios. It will be nice to know im not going to fry a valve or something.
> Who all is running an inline fuel pump?


what are you using for a fuel pump? and is the filter later or new?? both can reduce and lower fuel volume and pressure and as a result your afr's can be less rich than you may be hoping or than your tune is calibrated for


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## CorradoMagic (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm running a 044 inline, after the filter. Its loud. I suggest spending the money and upgrading the I tank unit. Iirc both Schimmel & 034 offer a drop in solution if you want any boy of normalcy. 
An inline & cogged V1 really changed the experience of my Corrado. It's been so long I barely notice now, until I try to actually hear something else that is. 
I run the sp 9.4:1 HG spacer. I lost boost and hp but my rings have lasted. I'm using ac1 off custom Jeff Atwood tune only obd1 Rado. Extended Maf and it runs/drives excellent!


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

great thread OP, thanks! Was looking for affordable cog set, this looks like a good bit of kit.

some questions before i get these cog pulleys : 

1. what charger is best to fit in a 1992 corrado VR6 ? I want 1 without the oil feed line if possible, like a self contained unit so no messy lines to run to oil it.
2. what bracket can mount the charger of suggestion 1 ?
3. is this company going to offer a version for A/C cars ? Would hate to remove perfectly good A/C system if I dont need to.
4. Where can I get that pipe from charger to throttle body ? is it metal ? looks nice but i didnt see it on there website or as part of their kit ?

Thanks for all of this info. I would like a mild 10 psi or so kit !


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

eskimo87 said:


> great thread OP, thanks! Was looking for affordable cog set, this looks like a good bit of kit.
> 
> some questions before i get these cog pulleys :
> 
> ...


1) Vortech V3 
2) c2, AMS, Verdict
4) y not make one? or there are several kits being sold out there already.


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

thanks for suggestions. 
i cant make 1, im an accountant  i can do your taxes though if you can make me 1  :thumbup:
who is selling the kits?



BOUDAH said:


> 1) Vortech V3
> 2) c2, AMS, Verdict
> 4) y not make one? or there are several kits being sold out there already.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

I am still only running the stock in-tank pump. I know i need to upgrade or get an inline but either way, i still feel comfortable at 12ish psi as opposed to 14. The filter was replaced about 30k miles ago so its not too old. From what i have read, and what Mike at Supercharger Innovations have told me, 10 psi on my setup is pretty much maxing out our stock pump. I am going to look into the drop in pump (thanks CorradoMagic).

Eskimo; Boudah pretty much answered everything for you. Someone else had a question about A/C but i think they got in touch with Michael to ask him questions about that. I made my charge pipe (charger to tbody) using 2 bends and a straight, welded it, powdercoated it, and it works great. Some people use a tight bend out of the t-body and a 45 off the charger and just use a coupler in the middle. There are a bunch of ways to make it work, its just a pain to get it to clearance the strut tower at least on Corrados, im not sure about other cars. As for a self contained charger, even if you go with the V1 or V2, it is quite simple to run the oil lines.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

eskimo87 said:


> thanks for suggestions.
> i cant make 1, im an accountant  i can do your taxes though if you can make me 1  :thumbup:
> who is selling the kits?


I have been thinking about making some of them actually. If I ever had some free time where im not working on my own projects. I searched everywhere too and couldn't find one so I just decided to buy some bends and go to town. 

I would really appreciate it if the rain would please leave so I could drive my car.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

92Lowraddo said:


> Next, i removed the old crank pulley and installed the new (super lightweight) flanged crank pulley. A new hardened crank bolt, washer and key are supplied to install this. The hardest part about this is obviously getting the old crankshaft pulley off. I didn't get a picture of the crank installed but you get the idea.


Great set up but would really love it if someone actually put the Fluidampr crank pulley to use. It was Engineered to run a parasite just for projects like this!


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

good call on the Fluidampr, def would jump at the extra cost of one added into this kit. really looks like some quality parts


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

carsluTT said:


> good call on the Fluidampr, def would jump at the extra cost of one added into this kit. really looks like some quality parts



Although issam is teamed up with Fluidamper, lol a lot of Turbo and Supercharged R32s run these and they have only good things to say.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

I just noticed Michael updated the Tech section on his website saying he is working on an A/C kit so you can still keep cool in the summer and go fast:thumbup: http://superchargerinnovations.com/Technical.html 
Maybe down the road he will offer a fluidamper crank as an upgrade to the basic kit.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Issam Abed said:


> Great set up but would really love it if someone actually put the Fluidampr crank pulley to use. It was Engineered to run a parasite just for projects like this!


Meh. Nothing gained in my experience. Money is better spent on a turbo setup or towards a faster platform to begin with.



92Lowraddo said:


> I just noticed Michael updated the Tech section on his website saying he is working on an A/C kit so you can still keep cool in the summer and go fast:thumbup: http://superchargerinnovations.com/Technical.html
> Maybe down the road he will offer a fluidamper crank as an upgrade to the basic kit.


The A/C causes more problems with belt wear than it is worth.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

Everybody runs a turbo. I do enjoy the supercharger for the fact that its got the cool feature. I'm personally not trying to build a drag car...just a fun quick, cool, unique car. I am sure there will be some obstacles for Mike as he works on the a/c pulley but we will see what he comes up with. I am sure there is more than one way to make it work. He has some pretty good ideas that are new and innovative. (I dont even run a/c) Good ol' Pittsburgh weather keeps me cool enough :thumbdown:haha.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

DeckManDubs said:


> Meh. Nothing gained in my experience. Money is better spent on a turbo setup or towards a faster platform to begin with.


From one Mech.Eng to another not sure how you can _still_ openly state in a public arena that "nothing gained"?


Countless back to back Dyno's of users with OEM configuartions to users with full blown motor builds going from an OEM crankshaft to a "heavier" viscous dampening fluidampr pulley showing power /torque gained at every point on the power graph.
What is currently absorbing the energy from crankshaft torsional vibration once converted to a solid billet crankshaft pulley? Simple answer is nothing....that energy (for sake of simplicity vibation) is now transferred through your idler pulleys , your alternator pulley and ultimately your supercharger bearing.

Phil,
I am not here to downcry your product or to praise someone elses. I understand the need to protect your offerings but this is not personal. 

Have you used a fluidampr vs an OEM pulley on your set ups? If so where was it posted because I have not seen a modified fluidampr with a teeth stack on it as yet (and if it was done , then it was not done by Fluidampr or I would have been involved). 
Do you have countless miles on your current offering? Sure 
Can the current offerings on the market be improved? Yes

I would simply love to see the pulley used for what its original design was intended for. When I started the cog VR6 supercharger set up many moons ago I stopped because the crankshaft pulley to me was a brick wall. If you look in the domestic or even the BMW/Mercedes-Benz world you won't ever see an OEM crankshaft pulley replaced with a billet unit. It is always a modified OEM on or one produced by ATI/Fluidampr. Now that we have Fluidampr willing to develop products to meet the community's requirements why would someone NOT take advantage of that is simply puzzling. 

Running a parasite 12.5mm cog on the face of the fluidampr would delete the need to cog the alterntor , power steering pulley , a/c etc. 

Crank - Supercharger = 1:1 relationship bypassing the costly issues people encounter with converting to Cog.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Issam Abed said:


> From one Mech.Eng to another not sure how you can _still_ openly state in a public arena that "nothing gained"?
> 
> 
> Countless back to back Dyno's of users with OEM configuartions to users with full blown motor builds going from an OEM crankshaft to a "heavier" viscous dampening fluidampr pulley showing power /torque gained at every point on the power graph.
> ...


Not Phil Issam  

I am not saying it will not improve things, but the issue really boils down to efficiency. Turbo > Supercharger setups every day of the week. There is no one that has tried it more ways than I have. While a supercharger setup has a nice feel of power, it has a point of diminishing returns. 

I will say this. Back driving with a cog belt is the worst thing to do with the belt. A 30mm belt in the standard drive setup is not able to survive more than 12psi reliably due to the torque rating.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

DeckManDubs said:


> I will say this. Back driving with a cog belt is the worst thing to do with the belt. A 30mm belt in the standard drive setup is not able to survive more than 12psi reliably due to the torque rating.


Define back driving? As in the A/C compressor running on the back of the belt? 
Gates makes a wide range of belts that I have used on G60 kits we sold in the past that surpassed 12psi (equivalent ratio of a 60mm pulley). Maybe they might have something?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Issam Abed said:


> Define back driving? As in the A/C compressor running on the back of the belt?
> Gates makes a wide range of belts that I have used on G60 kits we sold in the past that surpassed 12psi (equivalent ratio of a 60mm pulley). Maybe they might have something?


Yup. The belts start to delaminate from the back driving at steep angles. The Kevlar belts also suffer the same issue.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

You know. Since Verdict now has a full kit blueprinted and bult for the R32/24 valve. There is a market, at least 5-10 to start for people with vf or HPA kits looking to upgrade to a larger blower and cogs. Also people that are willing to piece a kit together could benefit from a bracket and pulley solution. 

Now that you did the leg work Noah, you guys should consider asking for interest in the R forums and maybe doing a 50% non refundable deposit to get the gears rolling. 

It could be beneficial as some people want a SC over turbo. Regardless of the grief. The only thing that is caution over is setting realistic timelines. Just saying. 

If someone did this, I know there would b sales. I talk to people on a daily basis about it. 

Alright back on topic. Lol


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

DeckManDubs said:


> Yup. The belts start to delaminate from the back driving at steep angles. The Kevlar belts also suffer the same issue.


If you ran it in a parasite configuration you would only need 1 idler and 1 tensioner. 
Do you have a picture of a high mileage belt with wear?


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

Do you guys really put that many miles on your supercharged cars? I figure most people are like me and don't on these things as a daily driver. Mine is my baby and comes out on nice days only so if i have to change a belt every 20k miles. That is fine by me. 

Also, the smooth side of my belt has "shiny" wear lines going across the belt but that is because the belt doesn't bend where the teeth are. Looks fine to me so far. Before the cogs i went through belts like crazy. Tensioning the belt too much heats up all the bearing and in turn heats up the pulleys to the point where i couldn't even touch them by hand. Now they not abnormally hot at all and i have a piece of mind that that i'm not cooking my accessory bearings every time i take the car out. I know this is pretty common sense but id rather change a belt that may fail in 2 years instead of changing my waterpump/ps/alt/charger bearings.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

92Lowraddo said:


> Do you guys really put that many miles on your supercharged cars? I figure most people are like me and don't on these things as a daily driver. Mine is my baby and comes out on nice days only so if i have to change a belt every 20k miles. That is fine by me.
> 
> Also, the smooth side of my belt has "shiny" wear lines going across the belt but that is because the belt doesn't bend where the teeth are. Looks fine to me so far. Before the cogs i went through belts like crazy. Tensioning the belt too much heats up all the bearing and in turn heats up the pulleys to the point where i couldn't even touch them by hand. Now they not abnormally hot at all and i have a piece of mind that that i'm not cooking my accessory bearings every time i take the car out. I know this is pretty common sense but id rather change a belt that may fail in 2 years instead of changing my waterpump/ps/alt/charger bearings.



6-8psi on a V9 is ~ 6-9000 miles per belt.
12psi+ on a V1 or V2 will be ~ 3-5000 miles per belt. Some times only 300 miles  I normally ran with two spare belts at all times and changed the one on the motor out every oil change. 

I did over 40k on my setup prior to the engine letting go from a crap tune, 35k was on GIAC, ~5k was on C2. No C2 or UM tune will work with any cogged setup. Typically it washes out the cylinder cross hatching and then either lost compression or lots of blow by. Over 12psi is the limit on stock compression and without an intercooler. The Mad Max valve will not vent enough for a cogged setup, a Vortech Mondo is a must. Ripping the car to redline then getting 100% off the throttle without a big enough diverter will typically result in a broken belt after a couple times. Auxiliary drive does not have any of these issues other than the diverter needs to be matched to the size of the charger in order to prevent bearing shock. 

Spinning in the 85% range will normally yield about 20,000 miles per rebuild. Race blowers with straight cut gears hold up better over time. V9's explode if running 12psi on stock bearings. 12.6psi is doable on a V9 with ABEC-9's, however this depends greatly on if its an early charger or later charger. Early V9's will take more abuse.

The teeth will start to undermine by the the root, then the cord on the belt typically breaks. A panic brake situation with a standard drive will also break a belt, so "both feet in" when braking. 

Oil should be 15w-50 or 10w-60 and changed every 3,000 miles.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

What if you were running lug? And how does the tune have anything to do with washing out the cross hatching? Even if air fuels are all good, im still going to blow my motor? I also increased the pulley size so its maxing at 10 [email protected] 6500.

Also, how come verdict suggests using the mad max valve?
Just curious...


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

92Lowraddo said:


> What if you were running lug? And how does the tune have anything to do with washing out the cross hatching? Even if air fuels are all good, im still going to blow my motor? I also increased the pulley size so its maxing at 10 [email protected] 6500.
> 
> Also, how come verdict suggests using the mad max valve?
> Just curious...


I was running C2 after running out of fuel with GIAC. The target air/fuels should be 11.7-12.2 for a supercharger. The C2 chip tends to run around 11.2-11.4, some time even richer around 10.8  

I assume you talked to Phil about the MM valve. Under 12psi you will most likely be alright. Anything 12 and over, a Mondo race valve would be the only way I would go. The more boost on a SC setup, the worse the bucking seems to get with the C2/UM tunes, which I attribute to the extra power that the supercharger is eating. Due to the extra load, the tune cranks up the fuel to a point of too much enrichment. 


Keep a close eye on the air fuels, if the belt breaks, shut the engine down ASAP as you will no longer have the waterpump circulating coolant and can very quickly cause over heating.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

DeckManDubs said:


> I was running C2 after running out of fuel with GIAC. The target air/fuels should be 11.7-12.2 for a supercharger. The C2 chip tends to run around 11.2-11.4, some time even richer around 10.8
> 
> I assume you talked to Phil about the MM valve. Under 12psi you will most likely be alright. Anything 12 and over, a Mondo race valve would be the only way I would go. The more boost on a SC setup, the worse the bucking seems to get with the C2/UM tunes, which I attribute to the extra power that the supercharger is eating. Due to the extra load, the tune cranks up the fuel to a point of too much enrichment.
> 
> ...


Well that makes me feel better. Now that im running the 32 tooth pulley its maxing at 10psi @ 6500 and A/F is maxing out at 12.2 -12.3.. I never see below 11.6 when under a load. I am ordering the extra belt now. I would immediately shut it down if I snap a belt, as soon as that battery light pops on or ps feels heavy I will know something is up. 
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I am thrilled with how the car is running and I feel perfectly safe at 10 psi. 
I will definitely keep you guys updated as I get more miles on the kit. Unfortunately its almost time for hibernation in the warm garage.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Anyone add another pin to their crank?


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

petethepug said:


> Anyone add another pin to their crank?


Like a second keyway?


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

petethepug said:


> Anyone add another pin to their crank?


not necessary on the vr6. as they didn't have the sinter metal keyway that was one piece with the pulley that mated to the crank as was used on the 058 series 4 cylinder engines aka external water pump, aka g60, pre mk4 4 cyl, pre mk5 16v, aka aba.

the vr6 has the correct design of keyway on the crank and crank keyway that should have been used on the 4 cyl cars! I have never heard of a vr6 having keyway issues even once!


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

I have been running cogs for awhile now and I have had the crank pulley off a few times. The key and key way look perfect. 
I am sure running cogs puts some extra stress on the key but it seems to handle it fine. 

I did see that a few years ago some guys had trouble with ecs pulleys stripping the key but that was due to the key being too short.


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

naysayers said:


> I have been running cogs for awhile now and I have had the crank pulley off a few times. The key and key way look perfect.
> I am sure running cogs puts some extra stress on the key but it seems to handle it fine.
> 
> I did see that a few years ago some guys had trouble with ecs pulleys stripping the key but that was due to the key being too short.


thats because ECS tuning stuff is all made in China out of god knows what. I would be scared sh!tless to put one of their pulley kits on mine, you would be better off with the garbage ebay stuff.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

Soon enough, Soon Enough


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

I have a feeling a bracket may become available soon for the 24 v guys 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

I have a question about all this - with a cog set up running say 9 or 10 psi ... what size intake tube is necessary ? i was going to piece together some PVC pipe to get my MAF where I want it, but I dont want to "choke" off the air intake too much. Does it really matter ? Ive seen big S10 trucks with hemi engines in them that have these tiny water snorkels, maybe 1" in diameter. I wonder if that chokes off the air intake. No way to really tell how much air my engine needs to flow, and what size the intake tubing actually needs to be. 

Im talking about BEFORE the charger here. I was thinking about 2" PVC, but that internal diameter is like 1.7". Would that affect how much boost I can make ?


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

A V1/2 or a v9. Has 3-3.5 " inlets. I would say first off, don't use PVC lol. Second. Do at least a 3" to whatever the il inlet dia is 

For example for clearance issues. I'm running a 3-3.5 reducer for mine 

Example.( it's clearly not done ) 


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

eskimo87 said:


> I have a question about all this - with a cog set up running say 9 or 10 psi ... what size intake tube is necessary ? i was going to piece together some PVC pipe to get my MAF where I want it, but I dont want to "choke" off the air intake too much. Does it really matter ? Ive seen big S10 trucks with hemi engines in them that have these tiny water snorkels, maybe 1" in diameter. I wonder if that chokes off the air intake. No way to really tell how much air my engine needs to flow, and what size the intake tubing actually needs to be.
> 
> Im talking about BEFORE the charger here. I was thinking about 2" PVC, but that internal diameter is like 1.7". Would that affect how much boost I can make ?


I built my pre charger intake system by using parts from here:

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/

I would also like to add that using pvc is a bad idea, use aluminum tube and silicon couplers.


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

if u put the air filter there you will suck up all the water there is on the road  and whats wrong with PVC ? works fine, every bit as strong as the black plastic piping VF supplies (actually its much stronger)

is there any word on the A/C version of these cogged pulley kits yet? Im holding off for that.






BOUDAH said:


> A V1/2 or a v9. Has 3-3.5 " inlets. I would say first off, don't use PVC lol. Second. Do at least a 3" to whatever the il inlet dia is
> 
> For example for clearance issues. I'm running a 3-3.5 reducer for mine
> 
> ...


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

When installed, the filter is up off the ground. i made a 'shield' to ward off water and debris. its actually HIGHER than the ****ty VF location if u put the PVC for ur inlet, it will melt due to the heat


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

BOUDAH;84587026 if u put the PVC for ur inlet said:


> nah pvc wont melt any faster than the plastic intake tubing vf uses. if your front end is hitting 250 F you parked it over a camp fire
> 
> just keep it away from exhaust manifold and radiator and you probably would not have any issue (other than it looks sorta ghetto) ...


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

I dont understand how it looks ghetto but ok.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

I am running a metal intake elbow off the charger then to a 90 silicone coupler. To get it across to the drivers side i am using pvc. I think it looks pretty good in my opinion. Zero issues.

If you are melting a pvc intake or even a charge pipe, then i think you have bigger issues.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

just got my plug-n-play ms3x ecu for my supercharged vr6, once its running and happy the next upgrade is cogs and more boost. :beer: i am happy to not ready anything negative about this setup yet.


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## vToe (Oct 19, 2003)

eskimo87 said:


> nah pvc wont melt any faster than the plastic intake tubing vf uses. if your front end is hitting 250 F you parked it over a camp fire





92Lowraddo said:


> If you are melting a pvc intake or even a charge pipe, then i think you have bigger issues.



I think you two are both incorrect. The problem with PVC is it wasn't designed for these types of applications. Scheduled 80 pipe is only rated up to 120 degrees and plastic itself doesn't dissipate heat well. To think that there is not a ton of heat generated on the 'cold' side of any boost application is wishful thinking. Meth kits are designed to keep these temps down as well. That coupled with the fact that the wall of pvc is generally thick these things will retain heat. Having pvc run across the bottom and being open to moving air is probably helping your situation, but in my opinion it's not an optimal setup. Also comparing plastic that VF used to plastic used to make PVC is irrelevant unless you know the makeup of each. The only thing similar is that they are both made of some type of plastic. Here's a pic of some PVC used on an intake. Although in more of a confined space, you can clearly see what can happen to PVC. 










2 cents :beer:


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

wwwwwwwwait ...

what are we looking at there ? there is zero chance thats a corrado, ive tried that and unless you plan on driving sans the fender, it dont fit. What kinda of car is that ??

where is the issue ? where is the pvc in that ? are you suggesting that it melted above the tire ? is that grey section even pvc ? 

the melting temp of pvc is 100-260C, thats well above 120F. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride

I now it works fine because ive done it and never had an issue. The VF intake pipe is likely injection molded ABS. Thats generally what molded parts that size are made from. Its melting pt is similar to pvc.

anyways like i said, pvc works just fine. if you paint it black, it looks like abs. only looks ghetto if you leave it white.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

eskimo87 said:


> wwwwwwwwait ...
> 
> what are we looking at there ? there is zero chance thats a corrado, ive tried that and unless you plan on driving sans the fender, it dont fit. What kinda of car is that ??
> 
> ...




You guys don't pa attention do you everything I've been posting as been from my MK4 R32 This is from Bill Georges MK4 R32 with a Vortech V7 YSI 


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4570257-Stage-4-supercharger-reborn-The-final-fantasy


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## vToe (Oct 19, 2003)

eskimo87 said:


> where is the issue ? where is the pvc in that ? are you suggesting that it melted above the tire ? is that grey section even pvc ?
> 
> the melting temp of pvc is 100-260C, thats well above 120F.
> 
> ...


Nothing against Wikipedia but you can trust that info as much as you can trust info here on vortex. Looks like I was incorrect that the melting point wasnt 120. A quick check from my phone shows the maximum operating temp is 120 and looks like higher then that it will start to decompose. I checked 3 manufacturer's info and it stated that.

As for where is the PVC in the pic, its the white section of tube between the air filter/ maf & rubber elbow at the front of the car. :sly:

I won't argue what type of plastic VF uses because I have no clue. Only stating that PVC is a less then optimal solution and you are probably getting by because of where yours is installed. Just because something fits, doesn't make it right. Its your choice ultimately and also anyone else who reads this. Just want to make a sure its not interpreted as the best choice. 

-Vito


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

i agree pvc is not ideal. ideal would be stainless or aluminum tubing. My biggest issue with PVC is the inside diameter changes are not really meant for smooth air flow at all the joints. 

so is the pvc in that picture actually melted from engine heat, or did it rub the tire ? Should be no reason the temp in that area would get so hot.

As for durability of PVC, dont forget they use it for house plumbing hot and cold, pressurized lines. You can set your hot to be 160f + if you turn up the hot water heater. Im sure it can withstand at least 200F before it starts getting questionable.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

eskimo87 said:


> i agree pvc is not ideal. ideal would be stainless or aluminum tubing. My biggest issue with PVC is the inside diameter changes are not really meant for smooth air flow at all the joints.
> 
> so is the pvc in that picture actually melted from engine heat, or did it rub the tire ? Should be no reason the temp in that area would get so hot.
> 
> As for durability of PVC, dont forget they use it for house plumbing hot and cold, pressurized lines. You can set your hot to be 160f + if you turn up the hot water heater. Im sure it can withstand at least 200F before it starts getting questionable.



It was formed with a heat gun to clear the tire. All was replaced with aluminum piping which allow the incorporation of the diverter. PVC has no purpose as inlet or charge piping.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

its mbelted from Supercharger/ engine heat.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BOUDAH said:


> its mbelted from Supercharger/ engine heat.


Negative boss.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

BOUDAH said:


> its mbelted from Supercharger/ engine heat.


boy i hope a supercharged vr6 doesn't make enough heat to melt pvc on the outside of the engine bay. otherwise i spent a few years building a true deathmobile. that lill bit of steel between the intake and engine bay must of been what 200+ deg when the pvc started to deform. 

:facepalm:


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

yeah i was gonna say, it looks like it was formed with a heat gun (another benefit of using PVC  )

The FJ/jeep guys have used it for years for snorkels on their air intake systems, its fine. you just arent going to win any pointless car shows with it.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

DeckManDubs said:


> Negative boss.


Then bill is a LIAR!!!! lol


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

eskimo87 said:


> yeah i was gonna say, it looks like it was formed with a heat gun (another benefit of using PVC  )
> 
> The FJ/jeep guys have used it for years for snorkels on their air intake systems, its fine. you just arent going to win any pointless car shows with it.


An FJ isn't producing enough heat to melt the plastic snorkel,, thats not even a good argument. JS


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

Cogs + AWIC + lugtronic (on order)
Cannot wait to get this back on the road.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

naysayers said:


> Cogs + AWIC + lugtronic (on order)
> Cannot wait to get this back on the road.


Looks like a tight squeeze but i bet that thing is going to run like a champ. Good work:thumbup:


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## BlackSwan (Dec 29, 2010)

I have a MK2 VR6 with a vf eng V9 kit. Other than getting the correct length belt I can't see why your cog kit wouldn't work with the V9. I may have to be the guinea pig!! 😎


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

BlackSwan said:


> I have a MK2 VR6 with a vf eng V9 kit. Other than getting the correct length belt I can't see why your cog kit wouldn't work with the V9. I may have to be the guinea pig!! 


I built quite a few for V9's. Some last, others do not. Had some pretty spectacular implosions with V9's. Over all a very crappy charger.


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## BlackSwan (Dec 29, 2010)

Do you tell your customers the same thing when they fork over 1500 bucks of there hard earned for one of your cogged v9 kits?


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

BlackSwan said:


> Do you tell your customers the same thing when they fork over 1500 bucks of there hard earned for one of your cogged v9 kits?


Noah sure does. You should just upgrade to a new supercharger and sell/ditch the V9.


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## CorradoMagic (Apr 11, 2008)

V9's are garbage no matter if you have cogs or overtightened serpentines. It's a good 4cyl blower, lol. They don't blow enough CFM to be worthwhile & the bearing limits are reached way too early. 
SC's just arnt that efficient. spending $2500+ to reliably push 6# is an option...just not a good one.


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

naysayers said:


> Cogs + AWIC + lugtronic (on order)
> Cannot wait to get this back on the road.


Finally got the chance to drive it over the weekend and wow. standalone + awic + a high flow bov + cogs. this thing is insane.
I have a 28T pulley on now but my future plan is to run my 24Tpulley and set the rev limiter to 6500. I would rather have more boost down low anyway since this is a street car.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

naysayers said:


> Finally got the chance to drive it over the weekend and wow. standalone + awic + a high flow bov + cogs. this thing is insane.
> I have a 28T pulley on now but my future plan is to run my 24Tpulley and set the rev limiter to 6500. I would rather have more boost down low anyway since this is a street car.



I would not run a 24 due to the belt wrap angle, it causes a lot of strain on the belts and they break far more often. Increasing the crank size is the best.


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

belts are cheap!

my crank is 56T

this car get driven 1k miles per year if that.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

naysayers said:


> belts are cheap!
> 
> my crank is 56T
> 
> this car get driven 1k miles per year if that.


But motors are not. I had a couple close calls with overheating with blowing a belt on the highway. Just figured I would let ya know from the 50k+ experience miles :thumbup::thumbup:


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

agreed, I always carry a spare belt and I suggest anyone using cog drive to do so.


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

that set up looks great! can you post more pictures of it? how are you tensioning the belt ? is this just the VF engineering slip/tension bracket ? 

are they making these yet for cars with AC and PS ? 

How LOUD is the charger ? And most importantly, how much boost are you seeing right now with a 28T ? You have to be careful going too small on the charger pulley, especially if using aluminum charger pulley because the belt will tend to jump off the teeth.

How is the V9 working out ? Ive heard nightmare stories of bucking throttle and dumping oil down the intakes. Having any of these issues ? 

I love your set up, extremely clean !! Keep it positive here, dont let these internet cage fighter wannabies get to you, they are just p*ssys sitting in their moms basement.

Glad to see someone going cogs AND sharing the story !!


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

eskimo87 said:


> that set up looks great! can you post more pictures of it? how are you tensioning the belt ? is this just the VF engineering slip/tension bracket ?
> 
> are they making these yet for cars with AC and PS ?
> 
> ...


I posted pictures of the tensioners and the install on the first post. It is the same kit as naysayers. Actually it is naysayer's kit.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

naysayers said:


> agreed, I always carry a spare belt and I suggest anyone using cog drive to do so.


What are u talking about, if my supercharger belt snaps that wont affect my water pump


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

BOUDAH said:


> What are u talking about, if my supercharger belt snaps that wont affect my water pump


lol good one. i really wish there was room to run an aux drive on mk2/3's. its a much better way to do it.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Notch the rail


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

naysayers said:


> lol good one. i really wish there was room to run an aux drive on mk2/3's. its a much better way to do it.


Im glad you were paying attention.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

The last evolution of the auxiliary drive were 10x more reliable over the original kits I built as standard drive. The standard drive belt setups have a super fragile point which will break a belt every time. If you panic brake or threshold brake diving into a corner, it will blow the belt and then put the driver in a butt puckering moment without power steering or power to pull through the corner. Don't get me wrong, I loved the original setup, but went back N/A for track ability.


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## BlackSwan (Dec 29, 2010)

naysayers said:


> Finally got the chance to drive it over the weekend and wow. standalone + awic + a high flow bov + cogs. this thing is insane.
> I have a 28T pulley on now but my future plan is to run my 24Tpulley and set the rev limiter to 6500. I would rather have more boost down low anyway since this is a street car.


Any vids of it in action with the new setup? 👍


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## Dmoneythegreat (Jan 13, 2010)

opcorn:


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

DeckManDubs said:


> Notch the rail


yuck


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

92Lowraddo said:


> I posted pictures of the tensioners and the install on the first post. It is the same kit as naysayers. Actually it is naysayer's kit.


thanks, those are great pics and a great vid. So 14 psi ? that is alot !

some questions :

- are you having issues with the belt hanging off the ps pulley like that? ive tried that before and belt got shreded really quick. can you space ps pulley out a little farther, or is belt just too wide ?


- what charge tube are you using ? is that metal or the plastic vf tube ?


- what is madmax diverter valve ? ive got the 1 from vf engineering (metal version). I dont like it because it releases at 6 psi (overcomes spring), so it pisses away boost. I heard you can shim up the spring in it to make it release at 8 psi, but they used weak spring because they supply weak charge tube and it will break if you use the plastic vf charge tube. id like to get a metal charge tube and put heavier spring in the vf diverter valve.

- is the sound of cogs annoying / way too loud as a daily ? 

- have you dyno'd this thing yet ? at 14 psi you must be close to 300 whp ! how does everything else hold together - clutch, axles, tire tread 


I think if you remove those idlers it wont get enough belt wrap and cog belt will skip off the charger pulley, esp with a smaller 24t charger pulley ! any issues with the idlers yet ?


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

BlackSwan said:


> Any vids of it in action with the new setup? 


Well the stand alone has uncovered a few problems, I have 30lb injectors and they are too small. I also found a voltage issue that is affecting my peak fuel pressure.
I need to get all that sorted out then I will be doing some vids and a dyno.

So far though it runs great, I just cannot safely take it over 5k.
One thing that I noticed is how much air the sc moves even at idle. With the normally open Bov you can really hear and feel how much air it is bypassing. One thing is for sure, you really need a high flow bypass or bov to run cogs.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

eskimo87 said:


> thanks, those are great pics and a great vid. So 14 psi ? that is alot !
> 
> some questions :
> 
> ...


-The belt does hang off the power steering pulley slightly. If you flip the pulley around it will offest it slightly and allow the belt to ride make better contact.

-The charge pipe is a home fab pipe i made from 2 bends and a little welding.

-The Mad Max valve is the one Verdict sells and recommends if i remember correctly. With the cogs i may need to upgrade so i have had my eye out for a Tial Q BOV with a supercharger spring. I should be able to tell once i get the Lugtronic finished up.

-The cogs are pretty loud. I don't put many miles on the car and it is not my daily. I guess it could be annoying to some people but I love it when i have a chance to take the car out.

- I haven't put it on a dyno yet but hope to this year. I am actually running the larger pulley now around 11ish psi and that is what I had the Lugtronic base map set up for. Maybe in the future i will jump back to the 14psi pulley but i want to get some life out of the charger first without having to rebuild it. I have a feeling 14psi will kill the life of the charger.

-Haven't had any issues with the idlers at all. The lower idler is necessary to keep the belt from skipping on the alternator.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

have any of these setups for AC and PS equipped vr's hit the road yet?


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

carsluTT said:


> have any of these setups for AC and PS equipped vr's hit the road yet?


12v or 24... theres a few 24v


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

12v, i believe it was talked about becoming available to some point for 12v vr6's with power steering and AC but i haven't seen anyone running it yet.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

i remember that too.


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

hey i have a question about the installation of my diverter valve. I have the VF "race" diverter valve, its the metal housing with 1 inlet port, 1 discharge port, and the vacuum line connection.

Im not sure if I have it installed correctly though. I was just reading on some other forums that most people put the diverter valve inlet port PERPENDICULAR to the spring, as opposed to inline with the spring. See this picture below :










This is contrary to the VFE instructions, which show the inlet port in line with the spring. The way the picture shows it (contrary to the VFE instruction manual), no amount of boost would release the valve. Only vacuum could release it. I think, but I havent looked at the internal geometry of the VFE DV to see if this is even possible

This video also confirms it - you can install the DV either way :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI9rJoNzNVc


The problem I think Im having is that my DV, currently installed with the spring in line with the inlet port, is actually opening under boost (after about 6 psi). So, any + pressure past 6 psi is just venting to the inlet tube.

Do I have the DV installed sideways, should I just turn it such that it can only open under vacuum ?


Here is the forum I got the picture from, where they specify how to install the DV as shown in the sketch.

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforu...rter-valve-construction-how-does-it-work.html


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

nobody ?

would of thought this question was pretty basic...


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

eskimo87 said:


> nobody ?
> 
> would of thought this question was pretty basic...


The proper way to install a DV is with the spring in line with the inlet of the DV. 
If the DV is functioning properly and the signal line is good then there is no way for the sc pressure to overcome the DV spring pressure. When everything is working correctly there is the DV spring force (let's say it's 6 pounds) pressing the valve shut. As your sc starts to produce boost it feeds the pressure into the engine and into the signal line connected to your DV. Because of this, the amount of force being applied to the valve to keep it closed is the internal spring force (6 pounds) plus the boost pressure. So for example, if you are punshing 13 psi the valve would see that 13 psi plus 6 from the spring for a total of 19 pounds force holding the valve shut. 

If you have a broken DV or signal line all the above means nothing. 

I run a 2 psi spring in an atmospheric BOV and hold boost up to 14 psi with no issue. 
I have also had a broken DV that would not hold boost over 3 psi. 

I can help you troubleshoot further if you need.


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

ohhhh I see. thanks for clarifying! I guess I will test to see if the "signal line" is indeed seeing the + pressure. I thought there was some 1 way valve installed that prevented pressure on vac side.






naysayers said:


> The proper way to install a DV is with the spring in line with the inlet of the DV.
> If the DV is functioning properly and the signal line is good then there is no way for the sc pressure to overcome the DV spring pressure. When everything is working correctly there is the DV spring force (let's say it's 6 pounds) pressing the valve shut. As your sc starts to produce boost it feeds the pressure into the engine and into the signal line connected to your DV. Because of this, the amount of force being applied to the valve to keep it closed is the internal spring force (6 pounds) plus the boost pressure. So for example, if you are punshing 13 psi the valve would see that 13 psi plus 6 from the spring for a total of 19 pounds force holding the valve shut.
> 
> If you have a broken DV or signal line all the above means nothing.
> ...


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## VR6 GTIIIIII (Dec 27, 2003)

Really good thread here..

OP: first off: sick corrado. Have you had any issues so far with the setup? I'm highly interested in purchasing this kit, but contacting them through the website (which is the only option) doesn't work. I keep getting error messages. I wanted to ask him to give me a little bit of an update as far as when we can expect to see the AC-compatible setup. I'm trying to figure out if I should hold off on the purchase until this becomes available.


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

Thanks. So far I havent had a single issue with the setup and recently installed Lugtronic and couldnt be happier.
If the contact link isn't working on the website try emailing him @ [email protected]
He is on here often so he might reply to your post here..

With the new Tial Q bov installed


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## VR6 GTIIIIII (Dec 27, 2003)

That. Looks. Perfect. That's the exact setup I'm going for. I have everything set for the install (even the polished manifold), with exception to the cog kit. Powerful. And more importantly, reliable. I want the mentality that "this car should have been like this from the factory" every time I drive it. Michael has already PMed me and we are discussing everything. I'm psyched, man. You have no idea. When I decided to supercharge my VR, I knew I wanted to keep the AC functional because like I said, I want the factory feel. I did extensive research on the topic and saw that there were not many options available. The best I came up with was using a goodyear gatorback belt (single sided) but the smooth side of the belt would have to run on the ribbed AC pulley. Machining the AC pulley smooth is an option too, but this still seemed like a bit of a hack job to me after reading how much people talked about slipping belts. Do you have any other supporting mods? Head gasket/spacer? Are you running colder plugs? Thanks for the quick reply! I'll be running the c2 v2 blower with the c2 chip. I may eventually go the lugtronic route as well, but my wallet needs a couple months recovery time. I bought the car (jetta w 70k original miles) bone stock about 2 months ago and have not stopped since. Thanks again. eace:


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## 92Lowraddo (Apr 18, 2005)

VR6 GTIIIIII said:


> That. Looks. Perfect. That's the exact setup I'm going for. I have everything set for the install (even the polished manifold), with exception to the cog kit. Powerful. And more importantly, reliable. I want the mentality that "this car should have been like this from the factory" every time I drive it. Michael has already PMed me and we are discussing everything. I'm psyched, man. You have no idea. When I decided to supercharge my VR, I knew I wanted to keep the AC functional because like I said, I want the factory feel. I did extensive research on the topic and saw that there were not many options available. The best I came up with was using a goodyear gatorback belt (single sided) but the smooth side of the belt would have to run on the ribbed AC pulley. Machining the AC pulley smooth is an option too, but this still seemed like a bit of a hack job to me after reading how much people talked about slipping belts. Do you have any other supporting mods? Head gasket/spacer? Are you running colder plugs? Thanks for the quick reply! I'll be running the c2 v2 blower with the c2 chip. I may eventually go the lugtronic route as well, but my wallet needs a couple months recovery time. I bought the car (jetta w 70k original miles) bone stock about 2 months ago and have not stopped since. Thanks again. eace:


Thanks again. im running the NGK bkr7e plugs, stock headgasket, Autotech 262 cams and HD valve springs/retainers. I switched back to the 32 tooth pulley so its running about 11psi now instead of 13-14 which im happy with. Not trying to stress the charger too much. 
I was running C2 and it was alright. Had some idle and maf issues which became annoying. I just wanted that option to really tune it and get her dialed in perfect. 
One thing I will say is that I tried the gatorback when I was having slipping issues and it only made it worse... It would maybeee boost to 4 psi and it was slip so bad to the point it would start to melt the belt. With these setups, the more surface area you can cover on the pulley the better, gatorbacks grooves dont help.


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## VR6 GTIIIIII (Dec 27, 2003)

I picked up those same plugs. I don't have cams.. Yet. Do you think I'll have any issues running the 32 tooth pulley with this kit and a V2 on a stock (OBD2) motor? Only mods being a magnaflow and 42dd test pipe.


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## CorradoMagic (Apr 11, 2008)

carsluTT said:


> have any of these setups for AC and PS equipped vr's hit the road yet?



I have a Verdict Cogged set up on my Corrado. It retains the AC & PS...& was the only one they ever did for a AAA IIRC. 
...It's also currently F/S
Complete kit w/ V1, yada, yada , yada.. the whole shebang


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## CorradoMagic (Apr 11, 2008)

VR6 GTIIIIII said:


> I picked up those same plugs. I don't have cams.. Yet. Do you think I'll have any issues running the 32 tooth pulley with this kit and a V2 on a stock (OBD2) motor? Only mods being a magnaflow and 42dd test pipe.


anything over 10-12# should be 2 stages colder. Especially if you do not have some sort of Boost Cooling, like IC or W/M. 
Just keep in mind, SC systems don't make the peak boost levels till higher rpm. So, it's not like turbo car that will see full boost in the 3-4K rpm range.


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## BOUDAH (Aug 15, 2008)

CorradoMagic said:


> anything over 10-12# should be 2 stages colder. Especially if you do not have some sort of Boost Cooling, like IC or W/M.
> Just keep in mind, SC systems don't make the peak boost levels till higher rpm. So, it's not like turbo car that will see full boost in the 3-4K rpm range.


This true, but you can shift your band by using a smaller pulley and then restricting your MAX RPM to run lss boost at a higher RPM to stay within your limitations


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## CorradoMagic (Apr 11, 2008)

BOUDAH said:


> This true, but you can shift your band by using a smaller pulley and then restricting your MAX RPM to run lss boost at a higher RPM to stay within your limitations


 very true, but keep in mind the bearing limits(ratings for rpm) on the charger. Or plan to rebuild very soon. Using $$Abec9 will yield a few more rpms. just gotta start considering the cost ratio for boost.


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

what length belt are people using, and 25mm or 30mm wide ? Seems like you can use a 30mm wide belt with ac or it wont fit


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## eskimo87 (Sep 11, 2013)

?


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

30mm wide, length varies


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## stevevr6 (Dec 13, 2002)

I would love to supercharge my R swapped mk3, but I don't think there is enough space on that frame rail to make it work.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

stevevr6 said:


> I would love to supercharge my R swapped mk3, but I don't think there is enough space on that frame rail to make it work.


grind, weld and go.... go fast!....... sounds like a win could be in your future!


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## naysayers (Jul 5, 2011)

Couple of vids
I have the rev limit set at 6k due to my in too small injectors. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7WnvTCGuITA

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QIhweEJ_kos


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

Nice!


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