# Haldex without the electronics...



## punkassjim (Sep 22, 2002)

This is similar to DHill's thread, but I didn't want to threadjack.
I'm wondering about beefing up the driveshafts and rear end to prepare for over 300 whp, but I'll be using an Audi TT driveline. Dave's thread brought about some interesting questions. I've heard about using the Haldex rear end with just a simple electronic switch to engage/disengage...but I'm wondering what exactly that would do. Would it lock the vehicle into AWD and cause the rear end to bind when turning tightly? Help me understand how Haldex works, so I can form a plan to optimize my driveline.
Man, what I would give to sit in a room with nutter4x4 for a few hours.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: Haldex without the electronics... (punkassjim)*

If you want better understading on what Haldex is then you need this book which can be found in ebay. 
"VW Self Study Programme 206"
Four-Wheel Drive with Haldex Coupling 11/98


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

When fully engaged it would be 50/50. I'm about to begin with my swap (next week finally) I'm gonna use a Standard Audi Quattro reardiff blocking button to connect the 4WD, and then a knob to adjust the power distribution from 100-0 to 50-50. You can even use a swith on the handbrake to disable it for handbrake turns.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (Yorldi)*

care to share your layout?


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

Next week I'll start with it. I just need a customer to pick up his Ferrari and I can bring my car over here FINALLY!! I'll try to make pics as detailed as possible. But it's not very difficult, because the degree of clamping of that diff is related to the voltage that arrives, so, you can just manipulate it as you want.


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## yellowslc (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (Yorldi)*

Looks like I have a book to buy








I'd like to know if the haldex controller (oem or say eip's) is just looking for TPS input and 4 wheel speed inputs or as you say.. just +12V/Gnd/ and a potentiated control voltage. If that is the case, a simple Pot is the answer.
R


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## swingwing205 (Jun 13, 2001)

*Re: (yellowslc)*

You could also consider using an LSD out of a later model Audi w/ Torsen diff, and just replace the electrical coupling. This is an idea I'm starting to lean over to very highly...


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (yellowslc)*

No, it takes more inputs into count, such as wipers, temperature (to know if there's snow or water and all that). The ECU reads all that, and THEN, decides the voltage its sending to the diff. You can just remove it and decide on your own. If you visit http://www.vwsyncro.co.uk you'll find all the info on that, there are a couple of guys running that way.


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (Yorldi)*

How does the electronic system work? Is it a solenoid engaging the rear drive, or a relay that sends a signal to a mechanical engagement system? 
I'm curious to learn more.


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## punkassjim (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (DHill)*

http://www.haldex-traction.com/default.htm
...but I'm more interested in the VW-wiring side of things.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (punkassjim)*


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (atoson)*

Bump for this. Any progress on that project, Yorldi?


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## radgti8v (Feb 28, 1999)

*Re: (DHill)*

Any updates ?


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## punkassjim (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (radgti8v)*

hahaha nothing from my end...it'll be a while.


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (punkassjim)*

Does anyone have a pinout of the haldex connector at the rear or which wire is this special proportional voltage wire?
so this is correct? i can feed 12V to a certain wire and it will lock my haldex giving me a static 50/50 split? seems veeery easy.. is this common in TT land? I havent heard of any R32 owners doing this.. 
also does any one have schematics of the circuit? i wonder how the ECU's signal should be terminated when disconnected while my 12V source is hooked up..


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (TXBDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TXBDan* »_Does anyone have a pinout of the haldex connector at the rear or which wire is this special proportional voltage wire?
so this is correct? i can feed 12V to a certain wire and it will lock my haldex giving me a static 50/50 split? seems veeery easy.. is this common in TT land? I havent heard of any R32 owners doing this.. 
also does any one have schematics of the circuit? i wonder how the ECU's signal should be terminated when disconnected while my 12V source is hooked up..

That diagram up above should provide you with the info that you need. You just have to stare at it for awhile.... like.... awhile.







Maybe it's the V181 input.... all of the control signals (ECU, brake light, hand brake, ABS signals, yaw sensors and whatnot) eventually funnel through the pump V181 hydraulic pump control and the V184 control for pump pressure. 



_Modified by DHill at 3:22 PM 5-18-2005_


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

interesting. 
if given power and ground only (no sensor inputs) i assume it will default to off, right? what if power, ground, and any one sensor was connected? would that throw it enough or a curve to think the car is skidding, etc and enable?
V181 and V184 are what need to be controlled, but they dont appear to have external "access" connections. so youd have to fool the controller into enabling them for us, correct?
Thanks all
EDIT:
now that i think about it more, V181 is probably always on or atleast always ready by default. therefor i need not mess w/ it. so really it looks like V184 is the positioning motor for the valve which controls hydraulic pressure which controlls the axle coupling strength. T2/1 and T2/2 seem to be the ticket. Any idea how these two signals work? one a ground, one a V level? is it a differential voltage between the two? hrm. also where are these 'wires' externally accessable?
thanks again


_Modified by TXBDan at 4:30 PM 5-18-2005_


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

anyone? 
i plan to do a little probing around on sunday.


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

Ideally it would be best to bypass the "computer" completely, I think. IM *yellowslc* about it, as apparently he has a Haldex unit undertesting right now. Also, check out the Syncro-->Haldex conversion thread for Marcel's in-development Haldex controller. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1891426
You might want to ask him about it too.


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

anyone wanan give a hint on how to access the T2 connector? should be 2 pin..


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (TXBDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TXBDan* »_anyone wanan give a hint on how to access the T2 connector? should be 2 pin..

Isn't this the Black connector which has a bracket behind the haldex housing?


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

the 8pin connector in front (toward front of car) of the haldex unit? no thats the "T8" connector which i believe feeds power, ground, and all the sensor inputs into the haldex ECU.
the mystical T2 connector should feed the haldex ECU's output to a motor that controls a valve that controls pressure to the clutch disks.. ie, its what varies how 'on' the haldex is. i'm just not sure how to get to this connector.. its shown on the schematics i have but i dotn see it.. maybe its internal? :/


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

See it anywhere here?


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (atoson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *atoson* »_See it anywhere here?









I need to know somebody at VW that can get all of the documentation like that. ^^^^ That's helpful stuff.


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

yeh that is nice. i think the positioning motor V184 is the ticket. i just dont know how to access it. could you get these pics any bigger?








thanks


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (DHill)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DHill* »_
I need to know somebody at VW that can get all of the documentation like that. ^^^^ That's helpful stuff. 

You can buy this in ebay *"Self Study Programme 206" Four-Wheel Drive with Haldex Coupling*


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (TXBDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TXBDan* »_y could you get these pics any bigger?








thanks

I'm only alowed 5megs total upload at anytime.


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

ok i've found the T2 connector.. before i probe it to death and blow up my haldex unit, does anyone want to divulge what kind of signals i might expect? voltage range, etc?


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

FYI!
All diagrams from VW state that the V184 is connected via T2. This is incorrect. The valvecontrol v184 is integrated in the ECU module. The V181 pump is the external part connected by T2. This information is incorrect in both german and english diagrams.


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (DanielT)*

ah crap. so that sucks for my plan.. i dont want to control the pump, i want to control the proportioning valve..
how the heck are these guys doing this? fooling the haldex ECU?


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

This came from my Audi TT Quattro CD manual, I'm guessing it would be the same.


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (atoson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *atoson* »_ This came from my Audi TT Quattro CD manual, I'm guessing it would be the same.


I think that is the first correct schematic of J492 and V181 I've seen. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## syncrogolf2 (May 17, 2003)

I have the ssp 206 haldex but its in german, if any one is interested in this please email me at [email protected]


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

No updates yet, as I'm still building the engine, suspension and interior. Once the engine's done, I'll start with the transmission
These are some pics of the car in progress



































































_Modified by Yorldi at 2:59 PM 6-17-2005_


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## wertyt (Jun 20, 2005)

nice project!
doing almost the same to my rallye..
16v turbo whit 4 motion,haldex.
Iam not that good in the electronik part, so i wondering if you may help me?
To make the haldex work whitout the electronik is it just to put the positiv and negativ on the oil pump or is it more??
Some valves that is gone open and close??
I tried the red an black wire on the haldex and the pump was on, but there most be more.. or is it??
Help me pleace........


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (Yorldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yorldi* »_No updates yet, as I'm still building the engine, suspension and interior. Once the engine's done, I'll start with the transmission
These are some pics of the car in progress



















You are a tease.







I'm hoping you will provide lots of detail when you bolt up the Haldex.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by DHill at 10:34 AM 6-20-2005_


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (wertyt)*

Hi, In a basic that's it. But what I want to try first is how long will it take for the diff to explode. I've got a couple in here to try. I'm also having a look at an ABS-CAN signal converter, I could program it and make it work as if it was still fitted to an S3, depending in wheel speeds, but with different torque splits.


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Yorldi)*

If you are not going to use a proper VAG ECU to feed the Haldex with correct signals you might just as well skip the haldex clutch. (and go for a stiff 50/50 split)
It might work to use the Haldex without a VAG ECU if you have VERY good knowledge in the canbus protocol and have access to $$$$ canbus debuggers. The haldex ECU expects so much more than ABS sensor information.


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (DanielT)*

Hi Daniel, I have pretty good access to CAN languaje. What matters me the most is to have a languaje translator from ABS to CAN, so I can map an additional ECU and pair it with my Emerald, so I can adjust the torque split on the fly. The Audi original system also works on steering angle, wipers, temperature........., only to know if it's raining. I don't need that. I only want a variable (but on a fix amount) degree of torque deviation to the rear, that's all, and for that, I only need ABS (well, only the senders, as the G60 ABS is crap!!!)


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Yorldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yorldi* »_Hi Daniel, I have pretty good access to CAN languaje. What matters me the most is to have a languaje translator from ABS to CAN, so I can map an additional ECU and pair it with my Emerald, so I can adjust the torque split on the fly. The Audi original system also works on steering angle, wipers, temperature........., only to know if it's raining. I don't need that. I only want a variable (but on a fix amount) degree of torque deviation to the rear, that's all, and for that, I only need ABS (well, only the senders, as the G60 ABS is crap!!!)

You will find out eventually that it's not as easy as that, signals that are equal important as the ABS sensors are MAF and throttle, maybe also steering angle. Without those you will not get a 4wd car. If you throw away the Haldex ECU and use an own valve you might get it to work.


_Modified by DanielT at 3:38 PM 6-21-2005_


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

It all depends on the program on the Haldex unit. You can make it to work with your own signals, just changing the program


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (Yorldi)*

Wow, this is great serious technical info...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## wertyt (Jun 20, 2005)

what about the speedo? the rallye got cable and 02m got digi..???


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## GreenRallye (Aug 20, 2001)

*Re: (wertyt)*

If you just want to have something so you can adjust between 100% fwd to 50/50 split, couldnt you get a controller for the stepper motor that controls the valves. And just have an aditional on/off switch on the oil pump?
I think it would be easier to controll the stepper motor, than learning all the canbus stuff..
Thomas
Project 16v turbo Rallye


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Yorldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yorldi* »_It all depends on the program on the Haldex unit. You can make it to work with your own signals, just changing the program

I can assure you that you cannot change the Haldex ECU program without inside information from Haldex corp. Even beeing a Cracker/hacker with knowledge in dissassembly of the particular CPU you cannot expect to be able to interpret and understand what the code does. Atleast within resonable time.


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## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

^^ thats my goal, but i've pretty much hit a brick wall at this time... i'm just not quite ready to start probing around and messing w/ my warrantied haldex unit








i need more data


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (DanielT)*

Daniel, it's just a matter of emulator work. I do it everyday with cars and ABS for race cars. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Also, I've already read a "modified" Haldex unit, so I have a guide on where to look.


_Modified by Yorldi at 9:55 AM 6-22-2005_


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Yorldi)*

Ok, interesting.


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (DanielT)*

CanI just ask a simple question here? Since I don't have a Haldex unit in my hands, this is what I've been thinking:
Since the coupling is really just an electromechanical device, can't you just remove the ECU and make your own device that provides a voltage input to the coupling? 
Something that works on the same principle as a rheostat. It takes some input voltage, and then you output a variable voltage to the coupler to adjust your torque bias. Do you really have to mess with the ECU? 








I'm picturing something like this:








It goes from "la dee dah" to "vroom!" 


_Modified by DHill at 9:46 AM 6-22-2005_


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## punkassjim (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: (DHill)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DHill* »_Something that works on the same principle as a rheostat. It takes some input voltage, and then you output a variable voltage to the coupler to adjust your torque bias. Do you really have to mess with the ECU? 








...It goes from "la dee dah" to "vroom!" 

that's kinda what I was hoping, but then reflexbug had to go and mess up my head by saying that EVERY mk4 1.8T ECU has the built-in functionality to control the Haldex unit, and all I have to do is enable it with a VAG-Com and create a sub-harness to go to the haldex controller. I'm sure the absence of steering angle sensors and wiper input won't be a problem...and hell, maybe the ECU already *has* wiper input, but who knows? It seems everything is connected to CAN, even the sunroof motor and rear windshield wiper.















God I wish I had money. I purposefully avoid this thread, just so I won't get sad.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (punkassjim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkassjim* »_







God I wish I had money. I purposefully avoid this thread, just so I won't get sad.









It's more sickening having the whole thing except for floor and money to put the floor in.


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## punkasslarry (May 2, 2005)

*Re: (atoson)*

I've got the floor, the fuel tank and the tranny...and nothing else.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (punkasslarry)*


_Quote, originally posted by *punkasslarry* »_I've got the floor, the fuel tank and the tranny...and nothing else.









Maybe we could share the car, you can have it every other week....







sucks when you're sucking fumes from your bank.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (DHill)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DHill* »_
I'm picturing something like this:








It goes from "la dee dah" to "vroom!" 

This looks like one of my knobs from *Rebirth* synth software I was playing around this morning.


















_Modified by atoson at 11:10 AM 6-26-2005_


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## Rallye 1.8T (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: (atoson)*

I'm working on same conversion on my rallye golf
I have all parts from audi TT: engine,gearbox,haldex diff,complete wiring,engine ECU, ABS Ecu
I think that I will not have problems with haldex if I use complete wiring from audi TT
First I made VR6 syncro conversion on my Rallye golf,but syncro isn't stong enough,I think haldex is better

Few pics


































_Modified by Rallye 1.8T at 3:56 PM 6/26/2005_


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (Rallye 1.8T)*

I hate you all.









But really, I've got some syncro parts, no garage, and no money. Please job... please come my way !


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## Yorldi (Jul 20, 2004)

My case is worst, I have my car sitting at the garage and can't work on him 'cos I'm working on others' cars!! That's just frustrating.....
































By the way, I've just received D2 Racing prototype Syncro suspension hahahaha!!! They made a proto for my car, now we should see how it works!! For what I've seen, it's quite lower than the previous Koni coilovers I had, and stiffer also, but it's quite more adjustable. 


_Modified by Yorldi at 3:51 PM 6-30-2005_


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## Dutch1967 (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (Yorldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yorldi* »_Daniel, it's just a matter of emulator work. I do it everyday with cars and ABS for race cars. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Also, I've already read a "modified" Haldex unit, so I have a guide on where to look.


I understand were you coming from; CAN is nothing more then Binary code translated into Hex. With two different transmit signal High & Low the question however is? Is this allowed by law? CAN is based on ISO standards, Manufactures follow guidelines in the CAN Open spec producing devices with characteristics which will operate with each other based on a number of bit rates based on bus length. For example CAN LOW/HIGH were;
CAN- High = 500Kb/s [Maximum transfer speed] up to a 25 meter maximum bus length, were the nominal bit time is 1uS
CAN- Low = 100Kb/s [Maximum transfer speed] up to a 50 meter maximum bus length were the nominal bit time is 1.25uS
So for folks that want to drive their cars on public roads, tapping too CAN-bus signal from the cars original CAN-bus system is not allowed without a parallel interface, and tweaking is a complete different story..
But is there an easier solution, the answer to that question is YES. 
Instead of working on an interface why not use an ABS system from a CAN equipped car? It’s just two signals we need? We have seen how easy it is to wire up the Haldex unit by showing the wiring diagram, so hooking it up to our ABS with ADL/ASR/ESP should not be a problem if we have a loom and use the MkII 20/60 ABS unit. And gentlemen that loom is available from VAG under part# 6K1 971 279 AJ or CE (See pictures) were the small pink connector is the CAN signals (White – CAN-Low connected to T25/10 on J104) and (Black – CAN-High connected to T25/11 on J104). And based on what we use we can have ADL/ASR/ESP too… diagnostic too, are able to update using Haldex PreX version...


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## 1.8TsyncroB3 (Mar 7, 2001)

*Re: (Dutch1967)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dutch1967* »_ 6K1 971 279 AJ or CE 


















Marcel,
Do you have the wiring diagrams for this harness?


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## Dutch1967 (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: (1.8TsyncroB3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8TsyncroB3* »_
Marcel,
Do you have the wiring diagrams for this harness?


Yes I do but only in German, however they are the same as the 2000+ TT model except ESP. Were the ABS/EDS uses the 25pin ABS module and the ABS/EDS/ASR uses the 47pin ABS module.
The complete list of looms is:
6K1 971 279 R - ABS/EDS
6K1 971 279 BR - ABS/EDS
6K1 971 279 AJ - ABS/EDS/ASR
6K1 971 279 CE - ABS/EDS/ASR
6K1 971 279 AT - ABS/EDS + Cruise control
6K1 971 279 CK - ABS/EDS + Cruise control


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## DHill (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: (Dutch1967)*

this is excellent.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (Dutch1967)*

Marcel, 
I have just read through your Post on this subject.
What ABS control ECU part Number have you used to processes and transmits these CAN bus words?
Intresting approach, I like the simplicity, I think anyway







!
Have you proven this on your own car yet Marcel?
Does this approach then mean that the haldex controller on the other thread would lock up correctly if the front wheels started spinning under acceleration ? as it would be recieving valid CAN bus words from the ABS element anyway.
I think that the 'preditictive lock %' element of the Haldex would obviously have not much chance of working correctly still. (Due to abscence of ECU CAN bus messages such as engine Load etc etc) but this may not be a big deal.
Thanks
Keith


_Modified by keith_r2 at 12:38 PM 7-12-2005_


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (keith_r2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *keith_r2* »_I think that the 'preditictive lock %' element of the Haldex would obviously have not much chance of working correctly still. (Due to abscence of ECU CAN bus messages such as engine Load etc etc) but this may not be a big deal.


It is a REALLY BIG deal, you are flushing your money down the drain if you buy a ABS controller and think it will work. The Haldex needs correct CAN signals from a VAG engine ECU in action. Without such you might just as well continue with FWD.
An other option would be to emulate the CAN signals but there are not many people here able to do such a thing.


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (DanielT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanielT* »_
It is a REALLY BIG deal, you are flushing your money down the drain if you buy a ABS controller and think it will work. The Haldex needs correct CAN signals from a VAG engine ECU in action. Without such you might just as well continue with FWD.
An other option would be to emulate the CAN signals but there are not many people here able to do such a thing.

I can appriciate what you are saying and I understand the fundamentals of what signals will need to remain in order for the Haldex to function as normal on a car. 
However, What I was getting at was does the stand alone controller as pictured here








Pick up on the CAN messages from the ABS controller and then send out another CAN message to the Haldex to make it lock up if the traction is lost.
I appriciate that you know more on this subject than me. 
I thought that maybe the above controller had functionality to do more than just act as a stand alone stepper motor controller with the end result appliying a fixed load on the Haldex ????
Presumably the reason that if you wanted to use this controller the Stepper motor needs to be modified (as stated on the advert for the above controller) is because the unit is driving the stepper direct.
Keith


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## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (keith_r2)*

Sorry Keith!
I didn't meen to be rude. I only want to keep people from buying expensive hardware without knowledge to get it working properly.
After reading the German text on the exclusive page I can tell that their solution is to disconnect the OEM haldex-ecu. Hence no more CAN.
It is a really simple approach that might work well or not, depending on which expectations the customer has. Though it was really expensive for such a low-tech solution.
Their information tells me that their solution gives 3 modes:
1.(street) Haldex is 100% engaged permanently but disengage under braking or liftoff or cruising(under pressure in manifold)
2. (race) Haldex is 100% engaged but disengage under braking.
3. (permanent) Haldex is 100% all the time.


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: (DanielT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanielT* »_Sorry Keith!
I didn't meen to be rude. I only want to keep people from buying expensive hardware without knowledge to get it working properly.
After reading the German text on the exclusive page I can tell that their solution is to disconnect the OEM haldex-ecu. Hence no more CAN.
It is a really simple approach that might work well or not, depending on which expectations the customer has. Though it was really expensive for such a low-tech solution.
Their information tells me that their solution gives 3 modes:
1.(street) Haldex is 100% engaged permanently but disengage under braking or liftoff or cruising(under pressure in manifold)
2. (race) Haldex is 100% engaged but disengage under braking.
3. (permanent) Haldex is 100% all the time.

No Problem, I appriciate you honesty








Are the percentage locks you have printed above correct? 
So the modes only allow the haldex to 'unlock' in different braking conditions etc. It does sound rather 'low tech' when you look at it like this.


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## Soulfly_r (Nov 24, 2005)

*Re: (keith_r2)*

Hello
My first post...danger







, i have some questions and ideas about haldex.
I have a rallye golf and a haldex unit and one 1.8T waiting the swap, but don't have the wiring of the donor car, an audi TT. In my case I pretend to run with standalone but don't know what to use for the haldex.
I'm thinking of the idea of using a potentiometer like DHILL showed in another post.If i'm not confused,the syncro doesn't run in 2 cases ,no?

-when you put it into reverse
-and in hard deccelerations
For the haldex is it the same, i suppose.My idea is,if you are running fast and decelerate you can take a signal of the throttle for cutting the potentiometer signal and disconnect the haldex.For when you put the reverse,if you have forgotten to turn off the potentiomenter, the signal of the reverse could cut this voltage and disassembly the haldex.
Or maybe it is not correct to run whit a fixed value in the haldex?For example if you run into a corner and brake hard, what could happen? 
Thanks a lot.


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## 20vK (Oct 21, 2005)

*Re: (Soulfly_r)*

"I can assure you that you cannot change the Haldex ECU program without inside information from Haldex corp. Even beeing a Cracker/hacker with knowledge in dissassembly of the particular CPU you cannot expect to be able to interpret and understand what the code does. Atleast within resonable time"
I contacted the head of technical at haldex, asking him if what I thought was correct. After some correspondance, He gave a few hints that I was right, and then told me he had been ordered not to carry on communication with me because of "official company secrets"
To be honest, it seemed pretty straight forward to me. Anyway, I'm nearing completion of my own ECU now, so we'll see if I was correct


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## andymatthew (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: (20vK)*

.










_Modified by andymatthew at 2:33 PM 11-25-2005_


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## andymatthew (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: (20vK)*

keep everyone posted.

_Quote, originally posted by *20vK* »_"I can assure you that you cannot change the Haldex ECU program without inside information from Haldex corp. Even beeing a Cracker/hacker with knowledge in dissassembly of the particular CPU you cannot expect to be able to interpret and understand what the code does. Atleast within resonable time"
I contacted the head of technical at haldex, asking him if what I thought was correct. After some correspondance, He gave a few hints that I was right, and then told me he had been ordered not to carry on communication with me because of "official company secrets"
To be honest, it seemed pretty straight forward to me. Anyway, I'm nearing completion of my own ECU now, so we'll see if I was correct


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## 20vK (Oct 21, 2005)

*Re: (andymatthew)*

Will do, buddy!


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## andymatthew (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: (20vK)*

ANYONE KNOW WHAT THIS GUY IS USING
IS THIS HOME MADE ?
someone should try and contact this guy with a 4motion conversion done to a lupo,these are some of the photos in the post of what looks to be a controller for his setup,
Przod / Tyl
that's
Front / Rear
























AND IN THE CAR








(the post where the photos were taken from)http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2300255
the pictures was posted by Wolfsburgstore, he is on the text i think he runs a vw shop in beligum, maybe he knows the owner and can get some info on th e setup.it cant hurt
(the post where the photos were taken from)http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?


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## Rallye 1.8T (Feb 16, 2005)

What's the problem with using complete wiring harness and ABS from 4motion car?
I have 1.8T engine with 5 speed,haldex,ABS and complete wiring
and 24V V6 with 6 speed ,haldex,ABS,ABS sensors and complete wiring
If I use this complete will this work?


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## xblueinsanityx (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: (Rallye 1.8T)*

well also some of us (me) wont be useing abs at all i personally dissable mine anytime i'm doing spirited driveing because last time mine activated it almost threw me into a canyon wall because when it activated it pulses both front tires causeing me to suddenly point at the canyon wall in the same type of situation without the abs only my inner tire will lock under brakeing and i will be able to maintain the corner. (i got a tire into the sand\salt in the middle of the road) so i am personally going to be building my own controller once i get a rear end in my hands. i'm good friends with an electronics professor who says it shouldent be too much of a problem.


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## GTI1-G60 (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: (andymatthew)*


_Quote, originally posted by *andymatthew* »_ANYONE KNOW WHAT THIS GUY IS USING
IS THIS HOME MADE ?
someone should try and contact this guy with a 4motion conversion done to a lupo,these are some of the photos in the post of what looks to be a controller for his setup,
Przod / Tyl
that's
Front / Rear
























AND IN THE CAR








(the post where the photos were taken from)http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2300255
the pictures was posted by Wolfsburgstore, he is on the text i think he runs a vw shop in beligum, maybe he knows the owner and can get some info on th e setup.it cant hurt
(the post where the photos were taken from)http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?


It's sold by http://www.mft-berlin.de/index.html
Search there catalog. Page 32 (i have the printed version)


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## qsilverza (Jun 10, 2007)

*Re: (GTI1-G60)*

I want to modify my standard controller or my HPP BLUE controller so that I can switch between normal and than full lock. Any way to do this ? 
I saw a topic ages ago where someone had attemped to disassemble a Haldex controller unit to make it work dont suppose anyone knows where this topic is ? 
I find even with the HPP controller it's still a game of chance between front and AWD.


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

*Re: (20vK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *20vK* »_"I can assure you that you cannot change the Haldex ECU program without inside information from Haldex corp. Even beeing a Cracker/hacker with knowledge in dissassembly of the particular CPU you cannot expect to be able to interpret and understand what the code does. Atleast within resonable time"
I contacted the head of technical at haldex, asking him if what I thought was correct. After some correspondance, He gave a few hints that I was right, and then told me he had been ordered not to carry on communication with me because of "official company secrets"
To be honest, it seemed pretty straight forward to me. Anyway, I'm nearing completion of my own ECU now, so we'll see if I was correct









Richie.. aka 20vk
I guarantee you haven't made your haldex controller yet! lol
Reading all these threads makes me want my awd corrado back








Cheers
Ben


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

hi.. if i only want an on/off switch on my haldex should i then add 12v on the T2 on the motor..? is that it..?or am i wrong..?this is on a mk 2 only for dragrace.


_Modified by VR6-GT42RS at 1:52 PM 1-2-2009_


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## yellowslc (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_hi.. if i only want an on/off switch on my haldex should i then add 12v on the T2 on the motor..? is that it..?or am i wrong..?this if on a mk 2 only for dragrace.

No. The valve within the haldex module will still be closed.


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

i have seen people ho runs with a on/off switch..they say that they "just" add +12v..anyone in here ho knows how to do it..?


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_i have seen people ho runs with a on/off switch..they say that they "just" add +12v..anyone in here ho knows how to do it..?

Not a 12v.. more like 5v.. any more I think the pump will run too much pressure and fail. Gives you near enough a 50/50 torque split.
I know a few people run that setup in the UK and its worked fine for general road driving and dragging. I must admit I used a controller back in the day but if I had my time again I would probably research this option as its cost effective. Very similar to the SQS controller..
Sorry I can't be of anymore help.
Ben


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

there must be someone in here ho knows that


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## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

http://www.sqsracing.com/index...vek=1
look at the MechanicalHaldex Regulator MHR ,looks like a switch and and very few wires.. have anyone tryed the sqs controller..?maybe have the wiring diagrams,then it must be easy to make it self..


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## porkchop_man (Apr 20, 2007)

sorry to bring this back from the dead.. but has anyone figured out if the pump actually uses a full 12v for 50/50.. or if it only needs 5v or so as mentioned in the post above.


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## Maxf31 (Oct 30, 2002)

You can't change the split level by giving power to the pump. There is 2 ways you can make it work with electronics. Fist option is to emulate a can signal and send it to the controller. The other is to bypass the oem controller and make your own to control the stepper motor.


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## rjc69 (Oct 10, 2006)

I have already gone through this in my thread. 

I finally decided to just put 12v and grond to the haldex pump and see what happens.. 

Guess what???? The pump comes on, the haldex clutches lock-up!!!!!!!! The haldex "controller" DOES NOT connect to anything inside of the diff assembly..... It takes all of those "crazy" canbus signals, interprits them, the "controls the pump"!!!!!! 

I plan on using a pot switch, master on-off, and a hand brakes "kill" switch to wire my setup....


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## Aibifa (Sep 12, 2010)

Why don'y you use a potentiometer??? 
It gives you the adjustment feature 


Best regards


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## Maxf31 (Oct 30, 2002)

you are right. when applying power to the pump, it turns on. But this will only provide low pressure on the clutch plates. Nothing that can put noticeable power to the rear wheels...


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## rjc69 (Oct 10, 2006)

The haldex controller doesn't put anything more than 12volts to the pump either.... 

there is also an after market "manual" haldex controller that consists of nothing but an aftermarket pump with a pot switch mounted on the side where the haldex controller used to be...... 


THERE IS NO REASON THAT I CAN FIND, OR ANYONE CAN GIVE, WHY YOU CANNOT JUST PUT 12VOLTS TO THE PUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I would reccomend using a master switch and a varialble pot switch in line though!!!!


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## Maxf31 (Oct 30, 2002)

You just don't get it.... The pump is on as soon as you start the car. It has nothing to do with the amount of torque transferred to the rear wheels. 

YOU NEED TO CONTROL THE VALVE !

here's a link that may help you understand

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...way-to-make-haldex-work-for-free.-inside-pics


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

someone needs to log some canbus signals from their haldex controller to see what it is requesting. From what I can tell, the haldex needs can bus signals from: 

wheel speed sensor (abs) 
accelerometer (abs) 
steering angle (abs) 
throttle position (ecu) 
tach (ecu) 
vss (ecu) 
engine torque (ecu) 

According to the literature, if key elements are missing, the haldex will not function. 

Ideally, swapping in a late model abs system, and using emulators to convert the existing vss, tach, tps and maf signals could get you there. Some disassembly of the existing can frames would be required to make it useable to the haldex ecu. 

This is my ideal scenario because I dont want to use a late model engine ecu (specifically dbw) on my Corrado. I do want haldex AWD as the factory intended. 

Anyone have any idea how hard it would be to emulate the factory signals to fool the haldex into thinking they are the native sensors? I suspect it would be easier to use as many factory sensors as possible from the original vehicle, but engine torque, vss, and tach might be difficult if you dont use the factory ecu.


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## hiawata (Aug 24, 2008)

CannuckCorradoVR6T said:


> someone needs to log some canbus signals from their haldex controller to see what it is requesting. From what I can tell, the haldex needs can bus signals from:
> 
> wheel speed sensor (abs)
> accelerometer (abs)
> ...



It would be very hard to emulate all these sensors to make the Haldex work. The easiest way is to buy a standalone controller. Or a mechanical SQS type.

Or if you can program you can make your own controller. This is what I am doing. Controlling the stepper with a potmeter, tps sensor, and brake switch. 

Or you can make your own mechanical valve. Controlled mechanical or by a solenoid.

The only way I see it possible to have haldex to work as stock, is a very advanced program for the stepper. Using ABS sensors, accelormeter, steering sensor etc. Or put in a complete harness from a 4motion car. With electronic throttle and all the above sensors.

One last solution to have work close to stock is to use a advanced stand alone engine management, that can make use of ABS sensors for traction control, and use signals from that system to control the stepper.
This has been done on a red mk2 with Autronic SM4.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

Bear with me folks; my knowledge of can bus is very limited. I need to call on the expansive collective know-how of the vortex.

This question is for people experienced in reading/writing canbus code (or anyone who give a damn lol). I need someone to confirm my undertanding of the canbus system found in an early haldex equipped car.

I know that emulating some of these signals like vss,tach, and engine torque wont be an easy task, but it seems that there are emulators for installing different factory radios etc that require canbus information like vss to control the volume, or headlight switch position information to control the illumination of the radio.

Correct me if im wrong, but arent these signals universal? For example, wouldnt a vss emulator for a volkswagen radio produce the same vss signal read by the haldex unit?

My understanding is: (steer me right!)

Each "node" (ex haldex controller, abs module) sends out a request for data from other nodes. When the recipient node recieves this request, its returns the requested data (sometimes the data can be sent periodically without the need for a request message)

Each piece of data has a unique identity, and can be read by any node that can use that data. These frames of data are sent out in a standard iso format.

Now, *the question: can the identity, and the underlying information of the data frames be obtained by interrogating an active canBUS system using a reader?*
example:








Ill start an new thread about this if Im hijacking. I would love to know more about this though.


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## opzrabbit17 (Dec 26, 2008)

bump


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## opzrabbit17 (Dec 26, 2008)

what vehicle is this going into a MK4 or MK5...? 

This tread has some info on how the Haldex controls connect to the CANBUS: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...rsion-findings 

Not sure if these are standalone systems but its a start: 

http://cgi.ebay.de/4-Motion-Ha...d30ce 

http://goapr.com.au/products/haldex.html 

http://hpamotorsports.com/haldex.htm 

http://www.4motioncontroller.c...h=1_2 

http://www.kisolutionz.com/ttforum/haldex.pdf 

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_333.pdf


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## Dubmekanik (Apr 6, 2002)

I'd like to add some info to this thread. We built a mk2 with a 1.8t swap using everything from an R32 as far as the drivetrain almost two years ago. After looking at all the options we decided to just mimic the oe stuf as much as possible. I am using an AWP stock ecu, abs unit from a regular mk4, and the stock Haldex controller. I do not have a steering angle sensor, yaw sensor, or rain/wiper sensors. The system works great. I ordered an R32 abs module, but still have it in the packaging as the regular MK4 one worked fine, even though it's soft coding didn't match the application. The controller varies the fluid orifices and the motor separately. You cannot make the system work without controlling both in some way. The motor provides the pressure, and the controller varies the flow. I think the least expensive way to make it work without using mk3/4 abs stuff is to get the manual controller to vary the fluid passing from the orifices, and a boost pressure sensor/controller on a relay to activate the pump at whatever level the car breaks traction. You cannot just run the pump 24/7 all the time the car is running, because I believe it over heats the fluid. The stock Haldex unit monitors the temp, and prolly shuts the pump off based on temp/pressure. We are looking for a manual controller if anyone has a line on one for an R32BT that's running standalone we have at the shop now. Thanks!


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