# higher compression ratio



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

so... lately i have been debating weather or not i should do the following mods:

11:1 comp ratio
stage 3 ferrea valves (oversized) can be found @ 20squared.com
itb or intake mani, quickflow. [still in production]
NA specific cams [not yet released]

so.. please, can anyone give me a power estimate? i really want to keep this car NA.

its a beast, and i just want to make the most of it potential.

should i just turbo it? for power and reliability...
(money isnt the issue... its a long build.. so i am not planning on doing this tomorrow. it'll take time)

i am waiting for unitronic's reply on the matter of software.

and last... should i go on standalone in the case of unitronic bailing on me??



anyways... just looking for hipothetic answers, numbers, power, etc.

i know that between josh @nls, [email protected], [email protected], C2motorsports, and more people around here, we can find all the answers!!

thanks for reading.


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

if you want to stay NA then go for it, the gains you are talking about should give you some decent power but nothing amazing. take a look at the Audi TT-RS specs for the engine and if you could match that then you would be in good shape as far as staying NA. Personally though if money wasnt the option i would have the engine bored, stroked, ported and polished you name it id do it and keep it NA. As far as turbo im psyched that unitronic released software for the 09+ that goes to show they really are obligated to its customers, if i was in your shoes i would wait to see what unitronic is gonna do...you have an 09 right? i think i remember seeing that in the unotronic stg 1 release thread


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

how reliable is a turbo???

i drive a LOT.. about 3k monthly..


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## rags2riches (Jan 2, 2010)

Turbos, if setup properly; i.e. good blow off or diverter valves, turbo timers, running higher octane fuel preferably with methenol injection, can be just as reliable as a NA engine. As long as you keep the stock compression (I think it's 9:1) you should be okay. You might even want to go down to 8:1, just to be safe. DON'T want any detonations. KA-BOOM. Not good.


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

Go take a look at the numbers N/A k20/k24 engines are making.... its nuts... you can make rediculous #'s 

problem is there are no race teams using the 2.5L like there are hondas.... so if you want it to be fast N/A your going to have to have a race team budget. 

The main problem (besides $) is there would probably be a lot of downtime building the car up. 

I STILL say N/A though. :thumbup: 

WHY? because someone will always have bigger numbers than the next person...dial in the suspension, refine the motor, do some tracks days and give your car a purpose. 

+ The intake manifold really moves the rpms in a nice rev range 

I've been watching a lot of honda/spoon sports videos/mags; i like thier philosophy so much I am raising my car off the ground and moving a totally different way :beer:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

so, should i still keep on plans for a 11.0:1 compression, and a tune? 

maybe cams when they come out... 
an obvious intake mani.. 

oversized valves? 

itb set up instead of intake mani...?? 

i mean, on N.A you have options.. and i believe that you can do 300whp... 
with ITB's ALONE, one could do 250 whp 
add to that: cams, valves, 11:1 ratio... a good tune... 

and all the current available mods... 

yes, it would be around the price for a 2.5T.. but i REALLY want to be N.A... i just love this engine, and i want to squzee it.


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

yes N/A 

do not divert...


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

hey, i would totaly love to go NA... i just do see the R&D to support me. 

just like you said, i dont want (cant) afford a race team's budget. 

if more people are willing to follow the NA route, more parts and more support would be here. 

right now, i can only see a couple turbo set ups coming out. not much NA stuff.


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

i'm gonna do n/a ... just slowly... i'll prob buy the pistons and they will sit around for a while... i need a second car before i do anything internal.


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

i have to agree with staying NA, the only reason i mentioned going FI is i wasnt sure what greyt wanted to do...personally i will NEVER go FI 

but one thing blu is that the k20/24 engines are completely different from ours, trust me, hondas been working on that engine for years and it is rediculously versatile, i would compare a vw engine to a honda f block because yeah they are good NA but since its newer its more of a FI type of engine and most vw/audi engines can go FI easily


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## Audi4u (Jun 29, 2002)

I would buy a used engine, put it on a stand, and go from there.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

"i have to agree with staying NA, the only reason i mentioned going FI is i wasnt sure what greyt wanted to do...personally i will NEVER go FI 

but one thing blu is that the k20/24 engines are completely different from ours, trust me, hondas been working on that engine for years and it is rediculously versatile, i would compare a vw engine to a honda f block because yeah they are good NA but since its newer its more of a FI type of engine and most vw/audi engines can go FI easily"" 

this greyt want NA. 

i know FI is more power, easier. but NA is fun. better. Reliable. 

let us see how this continues.


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## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm keeping mine NA. You can still make decent power, and NA is always more relaible then FI. If a S/C is ever available, then I would consider that.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

so far, i am on my way to finding out more about the pistons/rods that are available on the market in order to be able to tune em with more parts and software.


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## motocaddy (Jul 12, 2007)

thygreyt said:


> so, should i still keep on plans for a 11.0:1 compression, and a tune?
> i mean, on N.A you have options.. and i believe that you can do 300whp...
> with ITB's ALONE, one could do 250 whp
> add to that: cams, valves, 11:1 ratio... a good tune...


 sorry dude...that is what's called a pipe dream. even with all of that (much of which isn't on the market and i seriously doubt that any of you would buy/install anyways), a 2.5NA is gonna max out at 225-230whp.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

motocaddy said:


> sorry dude...that is what's called a pipe dream. even with all of that (much of which isn't on the market and i seriously doubt that any of you would buy/install anyways), a 2.5NA is gonna max out at 225-230whp.


 umm.. ok... 

great to know your imput. anyways, projects have started, people have been contacted.. and lets just hope this doest stay as a pipe dream!


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## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

motocaddy said:


> sorry dude...that is what's called a pipe dream. even with all of that (much of which isn't on the market and i seriously doubt that any of you would buy/install anyways), a 2.5NA is gonna max out at 225-230whp.


 I have agree with this statement. 

I cannot see this engine making big NA power based on the parts available. I think ITBs with a lightened and balanced engine with a good set of cams will likely put out 200-220whp. Beyond that you'll be chasing a dream with thousands of dollars. 

I think too often we focus on a number for hp forgetting that the engine has other important characteristics such as response and flexibility. A really thorough tuning job with focus on throttle transitions and varying load conditions can work wonders in a NA application. 

Anyhow, I feel NA > SC > Turbo'd - but it all depends on refinement and tuning and flexibility. 

I'd be happy with a rev happy 220whp NA or a linear 275whp SC.


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## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> umm.. ok...
> 
> great to know your imput. anyways, projects have started, people have been contacted.. and lets just hope this doest stay as a pipe dream!


 Sounds like a great project. Good luck! :thumbup: 

Please post your findings so we can get some momentum on the NA side.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

sorry to disagree, and understand that i dont want to create an argunment that will get this informational thread locked. 

but... 

i have talked on the past with Josh @ NLS. and what he told me was that a 220 whp could be achieved with a couple bolt ons and the ITBs. 

so, add to that cams, higher comp ratio and a proper tune... and i believe that 250 is more than achievable. 

josh, could you confirm this? or can anyone who KNOWS tis engine better than most... can you guys please help us decide the answer of this question??


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## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> sorry to disagree, and understand that i dont want to create an argunment that will get this informational thread locked.
> 
> but...
> 
> ...


 Okay. Its not an argument; it's a discussion. 

Based on this post, NLS position seems a little different than what you're suggesting. 

I've been in the e30 M3 circles fairly extensively in the past and I believe my experience is transferable to this situation. The S14B25 is a 2.5L 4cyl on ITBs designed from the ground up to power a DTM car. In 2.5L form with many thousands of dollars in mods you arrive at 230-250rwhp with reduced reliability (read: tear downs required every couple of seasons). And even this is only possible with revised engine management. I know things have come a long way, but if it takes $15-20k to build this 250whp engine, what is it going to cost to build the 5cyl? Please take into account, that while e30 M3 parts are ridiculously expensive, they actually exist and are available, plus many/most were developed by BMW's racing program. 

I am doubtful that this engine could put down 220whp with bolt-ons and ITBs. To start with, ITBs are not going to be simple bolt-ons on this engine. There are going to be some significant software changes required to run these and at a significant cost. 

Anyhow, I love to be proved wrong, so don't take my skepticism as hating, I'm just trying to factor in some reality.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

as far as i was concerned, and as far as josh and i talked, the ITB set up ran for about 5-6.5k


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## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> as far as i was concerned, and as far as josh and i talked, the ITB set up ran for about 5-6.5k


 Cool. :thumbup:


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

i'd be happy with this car @ 225whp and about 1000lbs diet. :laugh:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

well... i want about 250.. and i am pretty sure i can do it... 

time will tell. 

and a couple calls tomorrow will help mefind out.


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## reepercustom (Oct 23, 2008)

BluMagic said:


> i'm gonna do n/a ... just slowly... i'll prob buy the pistons and they will sit around for a while... i need a second car before i do anything internal.


 Hey i am with you on this blu i only have one car but i have been going slow but steddy when i get antoher car it will be easier at this point I have a Carbon intake, light weight pulley, awe exhaust, unitronic stage 2, eurojet long tube header's i don't expect to have a super car but i never have had luck with turbo cars all motor and me always do better


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

ok, so i just talked to and about..! 

[email protected] engineering 
-C2 motorsports 
[email protected] 

and everything sounds and looks good... 

now i am debating on whether i should wait for ALL the parts to be out, or if i shoudl just start messing with the piston/rods..? 

but on the good news side: 
cams, manifolds and software for this set up will be out and available sooner than expected (not tomorrow) because real expectancy was NEVER. lol. 

what does it means? well.. stuff WILL be out, but time will tell when. 


btw, based on talks and on mods, 250 whp could be very achievable.


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## reepercustom (Oct 23, 2008)

thygreyt said:


> ok, so i just talked to and about..!
> 
> [email protected] engineering
> -C2 motorsports
> ...


 i need to dyno my set up but i think 250 is very posible


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

and just to specify.. yes, it posible but it will also be expensive. 

i would do: 
-unitronic stage 2 
-intake mani 
-11:1 rods and pistons 
-NA specific Cams 
-Throttle body mod (?)


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## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> and just to specify.. yes, it posible but it will also be expensive.
> 
> i would do:
> -unitronic stage 2
> ...


 Have the folks that you've spoken with measured the specs of the stock cams? Have they ball-parked specs for performance cams?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

all i can say is i'll probably just do the new set of rods/ pistons for the 11:1 and plus my current set up. 

and then, when all the other parts become available, i'll do more. 

but right now, i am on the talks with unitronic for softwware. 

and yes, cams are in production by a couple companies. yes, they have done all you mentioned, but we agreed that there really isnt a way to anticipate power output on my car specifically, since there arent many like me. 

and there are even fewer willing to do what i am going to do. 

the final power should be around the 220- 260 Whp... but not real way of know anything more as of right now.


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## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

thygreyt said:


> and yes, cams are in production by a couple companies. yes, they have done all you mentioned, but we agreed that there really isnt a way to anticipate power output on my car specifically, since there arent many like me.


 I was thinking more about "specs" such as lift, duration, lobe centers, overlap, etc.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

i meant to say. yes they have all they info. or so i am guessing. i didnt really ask such detailed questions... 

but i am assuming that a company that's making set of cams, well... they should be payoing close atenttion to the stock specs.


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

A turbo is going to be just as reliable as bumping the compression that much, rebuilding the whole valve train, and putting some hot ass cams in there. Plus a fraction of the cost. 

NA is awesome but don't waste your money on a VW engine. chip intake exhaust, then skip to turbo and keep the motor buttoned up. Tearing the whole motor apart like you're talking is NOT a sure way to build a reliable daily driver. Plus who wants to spend $8.000 - $10,000 to make 230whp? Yeah that is about the cost you're looking at to get the job done right. 

I could understand going NA if the power met anyones goals but lets face it guys. A 2.5 ain't going to meet peeps expectations no matter how much money you waste on an NA setup when its installed in a 3,000lb car. Go turbo, that's what every other car has to do with the kind of weight we're throwing around in our daily driven fwd econo boxes. 

A small turbo can make 230whp np and spool instantly, basically the same damn driving experience as an NA setup minus the bragging rights. If you want a real NA experience look to honda and mazda for MUCH more viable options. Or just find something with 8 cylinders and enjoy. 

I tried really hard to stick with a NA 9a in my old rabbit. It was putting 140whp to the ground easily but in the end that was no comparison to running out of gears in a quarter mile... :laugh:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

kungfoojesus said:


> A turbo is going to be just as reliable as bumping the compression that much, rebuilding the whole valve train, and putting some hot ass cams in there. Plus a fraction of the cost.
> 
> NA is awesome but don't waste your money on a VW engine. chip intake exhaust, then skip to turbo and keep the motor buttoned up. Tearing the whole motor apart like you're talking is NOT a sure way to build a reliable daily driver. Plus who wants to spend $8.000 - $10,000 to make 230whp? Yeah that is about the cost you're looking at to get the job done right.
> 
> ...


 ok so... the valves upgrade thing was pretty much dropped after the initial post... no real point on doing those just yet... 

the comp ratio is only being raised by 20%. and there wont be no cams for the near future. the soonest i am expecting em is 6 months. 

all in all, i will spend around the same price of a turbo installed, (4500-550)... 

and as i said on the last post, i am debating on just doing stage 2 + 11:1 or maybe a special tune for it. who knows. 

i'll post as i learn more.


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## BluMagic (Apr 9, 2008)

kungfoojesus said:


> A turbo is going to be just as reliable as bumping the compression that much, rebuilding the whole valve train, and putting some hot ass cams in there. Plus a fraction of the cost.
> 
> NA is awesome but don't waste your money on a VW engine. chip intake exhaust, then skip to turbo and keep the motor buttoned up. Tearing the whole motor apart like you're talking is NOT a sure way to build a reliable daily driver. Plus who wants to spend $8.000 - $10,000 to make 230whp? Yeah that is about the cost you're looking at to get the job done right.
> 
> ...


 

funny, thats the reason i want to do it.  

i like the spoon sports philosophy 

_With 25 years of experience in racing, SPOON SPORTS believes that a good car is more than just a fast car. It should be comfortable, it should be fun and it should be well balanced... and of course it should be fast. This is what SPOON SPORTS considers a good car. We would like people to use our cars on the street as well as on the circuit. This is SPOON SPORTS' greatest hope. This is what SPOON SPORTS means by "Total technology" and "real comfort." _ 

I want balance.... some may see it as a POS econobox and like you; don't understand why i'd put money and time into it. On the otherhand I don't understand a BT FWD car with over 300hp... i see that they like to go fast in a stright line, but the same car with 230hp lightend, well balanced with a good driver will own it on a technical course. 

Im not in it for the numbers game.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

same here. 

i am FULLY aware of prices and turbo options. 
i know i could go turbo and make 350 wheels hp. 

i dont want to be the fastest kid on the block. 

i just happen to DIRVE A LOT... about 2-5k miles a month. so my goal? 

to build a car that makes me entirely happy everytime i look/seat/ drive it. and a car comfy enough to drive it 15 hours staright, and not be bored or sleepy.


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## KulturKampf (Nov 30, 2009)

BluMagic said:


> funny, thats the reason i want to do it.
> 
> i like the spoon sports philosophy
> 
> ...



x2...for me i would rather throw a cup kit on my car some lighter wheels and a few bolts and have a fun, daily driver that i can drive through the mountains of PA or race light to light rather than a daily driver that burns holes in my pockets for all the turbo stuff that in the end is not balanced NA FTW


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## darkk (Jun 22, 2006)

thygreyt said:


> same here.
> i just happen to DIRVE A LOT... about 2-5k miles a month. so my goal?
> to build a car that makes me entirely happy everytime i look/seat/ drive it. and a car comfy enough to drive it 15 hours staright, and not be bored or sleepy.


 other than collecting a boatload of cash for this N/A 300 hp spectacle. I might suggest you make friends with a very knowledgeable VW mechanic...


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