# ITB on CIS 2,0 16v



## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

so here it goes ...
first of all sorry for my poor english speling ...
this is what i was doing for a few last months,wenever i had time,.the engine is 9a botom and a KR 16v head fully portet and polished with schrick 272 cams and SS exaust, and with suzuki GSXR 1000 tb and all of that is working with CIS that is conected to the TB by cable .









_Modified by Road Runner at 4:37 PM 12-9-2006_


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## littledevilo63 (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Road Runner)*

how does that work


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Road Runner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Road Runner* »_ suzuki GSXR 1000 tb and all of that is working with CIS that is conected to the TB by cable .

hows that run?
-j


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## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

movie



_Modified by Road Runner at 9:35 AM 12-10-2006_


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: (Road Runner)*

Thats pretty cool! Whats it like driving? What type of CIS is it running?


_Modified by Jetta2dr at 12:32 PM 12-10-2006_


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## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: (Jetta2dr)*

k-jetronic


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## dubalc09 (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: (Road Runner)*

i can't imagine thats good for your motor. you can't expect the air flow to be directly proportional to the fuel required, which seems to be how it works . looks way to rich at some rpms. awesome idea though man. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

i give that motor a week and a half before you have serious problems.
-j


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## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

Thats so ghetto. Interesting to see though.


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## mjleamy (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (Road Runner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Road Runner* »_movie 

That is simply shocking. I have never seen anything like it.
With the fuel metering being directly proportional to throttle, I would have to imagine under load (like going up a hill or trying to accelerate at WOT) you are just dumping fuel into the cylinders with 1/10th the amount of air needed to burn it. What happens? Do you bog down and stall? It can't run right like this?
Still, this is just unbelievable

















_Modified by mjleamy at 9:37 AM 12-18-2006_


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (mjleamy)*

Sprint car's fuel system is somewhat similar in that it's continous injection and the throttle is connected direct to the fuel metering unit, the big difference is that the sprint car's fuel pump is engine driven so that for any one particular throttle position, the amount of fuel delivered is more or less proportional to engine rpm


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_Sprint car's fuel system is somewhat similar in that it's continous injection and the throttle is connected direct to the fuel metering unit, the big difference is that the sprint car's fuel pump is engine driven so that for any one particular throttle position, the amount of fuel delivered is more or less proportional to engine rpm

2 more things. they are not driven on the street, and they can actually be tuned.
-j


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (Muffler Bearing)*

id be vary interested to see some a/f ratios from that setup.


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## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

this is from the inside of the car...

the car is still in progres of building,it only needs one litle thing to be done ,...
the only purpose of this car is racing it is not built for slow driving ,and on WOT is pulling like crayz from 2000 Rpm


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Road Runner)*

I dont know what to think, that is alot to take in all at once.


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## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

Sounds like its running a bit better.


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## littledevilo63 (Mar 11, 2002)

*Re: (Road Runner)*

so he basically just did what people probably didnt think was possible, because i sure as hell didnt think it was going to run. i think its pretty cool that it works. do you have an A\F gauge in it yet? id like to hear those numbers as well


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (littledevilo63)*

I dont think it was a matter of people not thinking it was possible, it is the sheer physics of the throttle plate being connected to a cable that people have avaoided it. It would be a pain to rig up, but some kind of a vacuum operated diaphram would make more sense, but still has its issues. Plus tuning would be a beotch!


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## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_I dont think it was a matter of people not thinking it was possible, it is the sheer physics of the throttle plate being connected to a cable that people have avaoided it. It would be a pain to rig up, but some kind of a vacuum operated diaphram would make more sense, but still has its issues. Plus tuning would be a beotch!

I agree. I was thinking some sort of vacuum control might be a little better. I'm kinda curious to see how well he can get it to run.


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## urogolf (Dec 10, 2000)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Road Runner)*

dont know what to say


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (urogolf)*

Some type of vacuum operated system might help but I doubt it would be good enough. If there were some way to factor engine rpm into the system, it could probably be made to work fairly well, at least for a racing application. As it is now, the system delivers the same amount of fuel at WOT whether the engine is just coming off idle or approaching the redline, most definitely a less than ideal set-up.


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## MattyDVR6 (Dec 8, 2002)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_Some type of vacuum operated system might help but I doubt it would be good enough. If there were some way to factor engine rpm into the system, it could probably be made to work fairly well, at least for a racing application. As it is now, the system delivers the same amount of fuel at WOT whether the engine is just coming off idle or approaching the redline, most definitely a less than ideal set-up.

seems like he needs a ghetto control box to read engine rpms and perhaps reduce power to the fuel pump accordingly like the sprint cars mentioned earlier. Some time on the dyno would teach him exactly how much fuel he needs and how much resistance to place on the fuel pump power source.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (MattyDVR6)*

Personally. I think an engine driven fuel pump would be the way to go, pump output varies directly with engine speed. Then if you could rig up some type of magneto ignition and you'd be able to run the car without a battery or charging system, a perfect situation for a race car.


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## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_Personally. I think an engine driven fuel pump would be the way to go, pump output varies directly with engine speed. Then if you could rig up some type of magneto ignition and you'd be able to run the car without a battery or charging system, a perfect situation for a race car.

That would probably work. I wonder if thats even feasable though... Probably would be cheaper to just do megasquirt and that point.


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## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (skidplate)*

I do admit it is intriguing, but for a few bucks you can get a rail and management system that is going to be way more efficient imho.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (volks25)*

wow, i saw that thread title and went "shuuuuureeee..."
I'm.....speachless.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (volks25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volks25* »_I do admit it is intriguing, but for a few bucks you can get a rail and management system that is going to be way more efficient imho.

100% mechanical fuel injection is really old school, I'm reminded of the old Super Vee engines and for it to be a DIY set-up, is sufficiently intriguing that I'd love to see someone pull it off successfully. Nevertheless, I DO agree with everything you've said.


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## caddygti (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (ABA Scirocco)*

Thats amazing!!!
Regardless if its the best way or not the inguinuity it took to set that up is unbelieveable. I've never seen it before, and I've seen alot as far as vag motors are concerned. I give this guy lots of respect! He can come work at my shop any day.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Road Runner)*

why not just plumb the TB up to the fuel distributor like CIS is supposed to be? move the tb closer to the head to allow room for a common plenum and plumb it up right.


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## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (antichristonwheels)*

i think it's mainly for tunability
instead of air lifting the plate, it's the gas pedal, so it will always be the right amount of gas for air when tuned properly
I don't think pluming ITBs to the fuel distributor would be "pretty"


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (volks25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volks25* »_
instead of air lifting the plate, it's the gas pedal, so it will always be the right amount of gas for air when tuned properly


what happens at wot while your going 20mph in 5th up a hill?
-j


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (volks25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volks25* »_instead of air lifting the plate, it's the gas pedal, so it will always be the right amount of gas for air when tuned properly


There's a BIG problem with that. The amount of air entering the engine and hence its fuel requirement is not directly related to the position of the gas pedal (i.e. throttle position) rather it related to a combination of the throttle position and engine speed. IOW, an engine at full throttle will draw in much more air approaching the red line than it would at full throttle just coming off idle and so the fueling requirements would be vastly different and as near as I can tell, this system doesn't take that into account.


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## volks25 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_
The name of your shop? I need to know where not to go!
You might be leagally retarded, you may want to look into it, they may be a tax cut in it for you.

hey take it easy there







If you look above, I did say "I think", so yeah it's my opinion and not really retarded for voicing what I think it does. I didn't say it was a good idea. Whatever... Mods, are we allowed to burn someone like that?
What are you trying to sell on here again? I'm sure with a little more *respect* you can get more sales... back on topic....










_Modified by volks25 at 6:35 AM 12-21-2006_


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (volks25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volks25* »_
hey take it easy there







If you look above, I did say "I think", so yeah it's my opinion and not really retarded for voicing what I think it does. I didn't say it was a good idea. Whatever... Mods, are we allowed to burn someone like that?
What are you trying to sell on here again? I'm sure with a little more *respect* you can get more sales... back on topic....









_Modified by volks25 at 6:35 AM 12-21-2006_

Oh dear, I don't even know where to begin....







*sigh*


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## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

i did this set up youst because my frends thold me dat it cant be done ,i am not saying that this is the way to go ,soon as the rain stops to fal i will make a movie on driving on the road. before puting the ITB*s car was runing 14,8 on 1/4 mille with reaction time..


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## BladesNet (Mar 29, 2001)

*Re: (Road Runner)*

Install an air/fuel gauge .. I'm betting it's uber lean past 4400rpm.
Why ? my buddy ran his Scirocco 16v with ITB on CIS (using a plenum) and the thing, whatever you did ran uberlean past 4400rpm. Still it pulled nicely with par with a Passat VR6.
It wasn't a monster but was still a nice experiment.


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (BladesNet)*

lets all keep in mind that this car isnt going to see any real street driving, its a race car its going to see a trailer and the strip, he did something unbelivable and pretty dam cool, this is another example of how beautiful mechanical fuel injection is








Personally i cant wait to see this thing driving, i also dont think he'll lean out because of all the head work he has done, seems to rev really really good, from what i saw with the car not under any load it wants to go past 7k easily!!!


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## Fox-N-It (Jul 23, 2003)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwaddicct07* »_.... i also dont think he'll lean out because of all the head work he has done.....








keep


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## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: (BladesNet)*

my car is puling at the moment like crayz and it goes same as my frends polo that has 1,8l turbo with around 200 hp , and my car is still not fine tuned















and one qestion , did enyone of you guys tried to put 4 speed gearbox from an mk2 1,6d on your car ?


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## DigiFaNt (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (Road Runner)*

From what I have gathered, ITB makes some nice HP, but mostly under something more tune-able. Have you looked at mega squirt/ w spark control? talk to the people at usrt. they have working some the same thing right now, still in the R&D phase.


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (DigiFaNt)*

can we see a video of the car driving?


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## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

http://rapidshare.com/files/91....html
this one is from few months ago ,my vw i one with orange hood,
the car I am runing agenst is G60 with smaler pulley and chip,
yellow polo has 200 whp


_Modified by Road Runner at 1:59 PM 12-29-2006_


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## Space9888 (Mar 18, 2002)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_
There's a BIG problem with that. The amount of air entering the engine and hence its fuel requirement is not directly related to the position of the gas pedal (i.e. throttle position) rather it related to a combination of the throttle position and engine speed. IOW, an engine at full throttle will draw in much more air approaching the red line than it would at full throttle just coming off idle and so the fueling requirements would be vastly different and as near as I can tell, this system doesn't take that into account.

yeah your right but fuel pressure regulator has much more conrol over fuel volume supplied than you would think. the cis airbox is to finely meter the fuel for efficiency, if you did what this guy is doing and have an air fuel gauge, you could find a mechanical balance for the system, if you put an adjustable f/p regulator in there, w/ an air fuel gauge, you have a fully adjustable fuel injection system, very neanderthal tho that i very much agree on! i could imagine that it would take a certain throttle engagement practices to make it run right. i also agree that the life expectancy of the engine w/ out some reference of air/fuel would be short. i wonder if it pings (lean) or bogs (rich) at certain rpms under load. 

_Modified by Space9888 at 10:32 PM 1-1-2007_

_Modified by Space9888 at 2:48 PM 1-2-2007_

_Modified by Space9888 at 2:51 PM 1-2-2007_


_Modified by Space9888 at 2:51 PM 1-2-2007_


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## Digital:K (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: (patatron)*

I dont know about you guys, but fire coming out of my intake sounds not so great.


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Digital:K)*

anything new with this?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (DigiFaNt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DigiFaNt* »_ talk to the people at usrt. they have working some the same thing right now, still in the R&D phase. 

What is USRT working on exactly?


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## Digital:K (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwaddicct07* »_anything new with this?

it blew up. the car is a melted husk. pure speculation of course.


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (Digital:K)*

I stole the pic from somewhere and figgered it would be something like this. I'm going to do this to my 8v in the spring
















Cool none the less







good luck with it.


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (impulse byer)*

thats awesome http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*

thats nice lookin an all, but the functionality is highly questionable.


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (Road Runner)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Another VW genius at work!!
Keep the support going guys


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## 8project4 (Jul 23, 2006)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Road Runner)*

how did you hook up the air flap to work with the ITBs?


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## mikey9a (Mar 9, 2007)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (8project4)*

very nice this is what i want to do to my 16v http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









what kind of hp are you getting with the itb 


_Modified by mikey9a at 8:16 PM 9-27-2007_


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## Jeepr21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Muffler Bearing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Muffler Bearing* »_
what happens at wot while your going 20mph in 5th up a hill?
-j

Who cares... he's not gunna be going 20mph in 5th... even my car would choke trying to do that... he said its strictly for racing... i think he did a good job...







to you man! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 1.8T16vhead (Aug 3, 2006)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Jeepr21)*

how is this car running im doing the same in my car let me know


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## Road Runner (Dec 9, 2006)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (1.8T16vhead)*

sorry to dissopoint you all dissboilivers but the car is still wourkin widouth problems


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## KENE_4KQS (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Road Runner)*

Quote, originally posted by Muffler Bearing » 
what happens at wot while your going 20mph in 5th up a hill?

HA HA HA HA.....Who would ever drive up a hill in 5th gear anyways??


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

fyi this is basically how half the itb cars running on megasquirt work with alpha N its basically just a direct fuel vs rpm table. 
yeah map can correct a bit but a bunch of guys don't run that.


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

*FV-QR*

anyone running ms without a map needs to be smacked.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Huh?


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## vwPanda (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_fyi this is basically how half the itb cars running on megasquirt work with alpha N its basically just a direct fuel vs rpm table. 
yeah map can correct a bit but a bunch of guys don't run that. 

The key here is RPM. This setup has no RPM based fueling what so ever.


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## nick526 (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (vwPanda)*

lots of criticism, lots of it is fair, especially the RPM issue. however, I think most have failed to realize that many of the performance mods that are common today started out just like this; a little rough, not completely fool proof or bug free, but highly innovative. instead of thinking of reasons why it sucks, why not think of ways to make it better?
my .02, I think this is pretty cool, sounds beastly! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Redrckt (May 20, 2002)

*Re: (nick526)*

I like it.
I think that I would rather run MS though.
Jackie Stewart, probably one of the greatest race drivers always claimed that the throttle should be a switch. On or Off nothing in between. Same with the brakes, On or Off nothing in between.
That is racing though, and doesn't really work on the street.


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## raymondlee (Jun 8, 2008)

*Re: (Redrckt)*

yea i wanna see this work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







any videos if it driving all the ones i clicked on were dead


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## hoooboy (Jul 7, 2006)

*Re: (raymondlee)*

ahah it's kinda funny!


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## azzkikr (Feb 28, 2005)

bump this up!








so tell me how i can improve this setup!











_Modified by azzkikr at 3:39 AM 12-14-2008_


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## junn (May 6, 2008)

*Re: (raymondlee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *raymondlee* »_yea i wanna see this work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







any videos if it driving all the ones i clicked on were dead

yes and yes me too


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## zippy_109 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: (junn)*

Just thinking... sure, this may not be ideal all around, but isn't this principally how carbs work? 
If it works, it works. But it would be great to have some widewband data to know how it plays out across RPMs. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## yeayeayea (May 29, 2005)

*FV-QR*

no tis not how carbs work. the air velocity through the carbs changes with engine rpm, which changes how much fuel is drawn in. this delivers one set amount of fuel for wot, no matter the rpm, which is retarded. if it was pressurized by an engine driven pump, then i believe it would be much like a diesel system, which would work.


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## zippy_109 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (yeayeayea)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yeayeayea* »_no tis not how carbs work. the air velocity through the carbs changes with engine rpm, which changes how much fuel is drawn in. this delivers one set amount of fuel for wot, no matter the rpm, which is retarded. if it was pressurized by an engine driven pump, then i believe it would be much like a diesel system, which would work.

Ah, right. Air velocity is still controlling fueling with carbs.


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## dirtrida274 (Jan 24, 2007)

*Re: ITB on CIS 2,0 16v (Road Runner)*

i did this same thing when i wanted to get mine started, for about a month then my fuel pump died, but it ran awesome! I had a bicycle brake cable with two "tabs" for the throttle body and the cis-e "flapper" and the throttle response was amazing and drivability was cool


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